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More Science Labs: The OOL Question

Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 1:43:12 pm PDT

Here’s an interesting back-and-forth volley on the subject of intelligent design and science; first an article by Gordy Slack on What neo-creationists get right.

Then, evolution advocate Nick Matzke (who was featured in that video I posted yesterday on the Dover School District controversy) replies to Slack’s article in an essay on what scientists really know about one of the most fundamental questions, the Origin of Life (OOL): What critics of critics of neo-creationists get wrong: a reply to Gordy Slack - The Panda’s Thumb.

Read the whole thing, but here’s one section that deals with an issue that’s been raised in LGF comments over and over:

OOL Discovery #1. All known life can be traced back to a single common ancestor which, compared to what most people think of as present-day life (i.e. plants and animals), was relatively simple – microscopic, single-celled, perhaps as complex as an average bacterium or perhaps somewhat less so.

Because a lot of creationists, and sometimes others, are a bit thick in the head on correctly understanding this point, let me bash away at some common misconceptions. The phrase “single common ancestor” does not, and never has for people who were paying close attention, referred to a literal single individual organism. Think about a phylogenetic tree with humans and chimps on the branches. When you trace the tree back to the “common ancestor” of chimps and humans, does that node represent a literal single individual? No, of course not! Everyone (well, everyone paying attention) realizes that that ancestral node represents a species or population sharing genes in a gene pool. Ditto for all of the other ancestral nodes in a phylogenetic tree, including the Last Common Ancestor of known life.

With this understood, the debate initiated by Ford Doolittle and others over the precise nature of the Last Common Ancestor – they argue that it was a population of unicells that were rampantly trading genes – can be put in the correct context. It’s basically a debate about how wide or narrow the bottleneck the Last Common Ancestor represents, and whether (for example) modern life might contain some genes derived by lateral transfer from pre-LCA lineages that are now extinct. These debates are fascinating and highly technical, but they don’t undermine at all Point #1. Somewhat ironically and counterintuitively, those who say that there was rampant lateral transfer – this is supposed to be the “radical” position that “uproots the Tree of Life” when its proponents get their blood up – are actually pushing the LCA to something more and more like a traditional gene pool, i.e. species, i.e. what every other node in a phylogenetic tree represents.

Any way you slice it, all known life (with minor derived exceptions, and excepting viruses) shares a suite of protein and RNA genes, a DNA-RNA-protein system and a mostly standard genetic code (again with minor derived exceptions), etc. Even if various other bits of modern life came from other ancestral lineages (unlikely for most features in my opinion but there may be some exceptions), this shared system indicates that all known life, i.e. all the stuff that’s not extinct, descends from a pretty good bottleneck where these features were fixed in the “population.” And this reconstructed ancestor is maybe as complex as a typical bacterium and probably less so. It could be that in the last 50 years science discovered that known life had for-real multiple origins, or that at the root of the tree was a complex multicellular organism with 30,000 genes and huge, elaborately regulated, genome, but instead we get a unicell with a relatively small & simple genome. Various caveats, important to scientists but irrelevant to beginner-level education and dealing with creationists (e.g., somewhat more genes may have been passed through the bottleneck in some but not all organisms if the LCA was more of a gene-trading community) should not be allowed to distract from the Main Point: science has confirmed the hypothesis, going back at least to Darwin, that the ancestor of modern life was much less complex than life today.

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1 soccerdad  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:45:11pm

I don't understand Charles' obsession with this topic. give it a rest.

2 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:45:24pm

Mich-Again also pointed out earlier that LGF is discussed in the comments.

3 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:47:56pm

"All known life can be traced back to a single common ancestor . . ."

And that man's name is Rush Limbaugh. Heh.

4 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:48:19pm

I posted much of this in an earlier ID thread, but by the time I was able to do so, it was fairly far down on the chain. I bring it up again hoping to change the tone of some of these threads. I've read a lot of them, and they tend to devolve into name calling among various folks. Perhaps naively, I'm hoping that there is a way out of this type of thing without resorting to folks attacking each other.

I am a Christian, and also an engineer by degree. If you know anything about engineering education, there is a tremendous amount of science that goes into that. ;>

That combined perspective gives me a somewhat unique look at this debate. I read some evolutionists that say 'I believe in evolution'. As a Christian, that sounds like faith to me. As a person fully grounded in scientific education, I don't want science classes teaching faith, whether it be ID or evolution.

Specifically, here's where I see the flaw in Darwinistic evolution. A biologist can indeed test his theories in a lab, or in nature, to the extent that species adapt and change to their environment. In order to test Darwin's theories about speciation, i.e., a lower form evolving into a higher form, one has always had to switch from biologists to paleontologists. That can't be duplicated in a lab, and it's that leap of faith that troubles so many people, and so few can apparently articulate. Further, people pin their faith on Darwin to the extent that they say something to the extent of 'biology is based on evolution'.

I think that there is a way out of the acrimonious debate, which is largely why I'm posting. From what I understand of biology, every living thing that we know about is based on deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA. Therefore, I would contend that biology is based on DNA.

If that is the case, then why shouldn't K-12 biology education be based on DNA? Let's start orienting the curriculum towards something that is much more testable, has many more direct scientific applications, and is much less controversial?

Anyone with me?

5 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:49:21pm

re: #1 soccerdad

Maybe it's troll bait.

6 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:49:22pm

This was a very good read, and I agreed with his conclusions. Instead of making an easy comment that OOL is outside of evolution, the case should be made for what we do know of OOL.

7 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:49:47pm

re: #4 Fried Spam


By posting, I'm hoping that we can narrow this discussion somewhat. The real question is not necessarily who is right and who is wrong, but rather what are we going to teach children in public schools in Kindergarten through 12th grade? The unfortunate thing is that evolution is perceived as being frequently used as a weapon to squash any personal Christian belief. A review of many of the threads on this website about ID will show that many folks try to do just that. The ID laws that we see are, in my opinion, a reaction to that.

I really do want to have science taught in science class. Can we have a discussion on how to best teach science in K-12? Can we teach science without presenting science as a weapon to use against faith? Can we teach science without resorting to using faith as a weapon against science?

8 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:49:52pm

re: #3 Wyatt Earp

Hey i saw you on tv yesterday!(tombstone)why in the world didn't you kill ike clanton?he guy was asking for it.

9 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:50:01pm

Maybe we'll get some huffpo points of view today.

10 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:51:06pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

See discovery #3 in the article Charles linked too.

11 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:51:41pm

re: #7 Fried Spam

exellent point.too often we degenerate into who's right.as opposed to the real debate.

12 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:51:43pm

Like I said on the last ID thread, I don't question the
intelligence of whoever designed me. I question their
sanity.

13 Mardukhai  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:51:52pm

Soccerdad --

I admit that anti-Creationism a bit OT, but Charles sees the enemy as anyone who tries to foist bad ideas on society.

I happen to agree. And please note that the great Gregor Mendel, father of genetics -- who discovered the first step in our understanding of the mechanics of evolution -- was a Roman Catholic priest and an abbot to boot!

But I would like to see more anti-Jihad stuff.

14 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:52:40pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

And discovery #4 too.

15 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:54:18pm

I hope this thread evolves into a boob thread.

16 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:55:12pm

re: #7 Fried Spam

what are we going to teach children in public schools in Kindergarten through 12th grade?

I wish there was more focus on this too. Arguing about the so-called inherently atheistic nature of evolution plays into the hands of DI hacks.

17 Salem  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:55:25pm

This is our OOL. Notice there's no P in it. Try to keep it that way.

18 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:55:30pm

re: #4 Fried Spam


From the linked article:

I would not want someone who believed the cornerstone of modern biology was hogwash filling one of them.

This gets back to an original precept of mine. Isn't DNA the cornerstone of biology? As such, shouldn't it be the basis of biology education?

19 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:56:04pm

re: #15 VegasRick
Now days boobs can evolve into some very intelligent designs.

20 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:56:24pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

Let's start orienting the curriculum towards something that is much more testable, has many more direct scientific applications, and is much less controversial?

Anyone with me?

My high school biology teacher did something to that effect.

21 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:59:29pm

re: #18 Fried Spam

This gets back to an original precept of mine. Isn't DNA the cornerstone of biology? As such, shouldn't it be the basis of biology education?

I don't think focusing on DNA would or should mean we back away from evolution. Isn't evolution an important theory explaining much of what students and scientists would be working with in working and learning about DNA?

22 gopninja  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:00:27pm

fine by me, as long as that single ancestor is 10,000 years old.

23 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:01:16pm

#13 Mardukhai

But I would like to see more anti-Jihad stuff.

Agree. The slow creep of islam in education is far more toxic and dangerous than ID. The latest is about two boys in the UK being given detention because they refused to pray to allah.

I happen to believe God is the Creator of all things, but have no interest in inserting my faith into the high school science curriculum. Even within the community of faith there is so much disagreement on whether it's evolution, Big Bang, Gap Theory, Old Earth, New Earth, or ID. Making room for anything faith-based simply opens the doors to islam.

24 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:01:35pm
25 alegrias  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:02:21pm

As long as jihadists, al Qaedans and moslems in general call the rest of us Westerners and infidels "sons of monkeys and apes", it's a badge of honor.

Until we win decisively over these murderous troglodytes who are already here, teaching their 7th century ideas in our countries with leftists' permission, I'm not engaging in this debate.

26 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:02:48pm
27 GOPninja  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:02:48pm

re: #24 MacGregor

Life is Sweet: Sugar-Packing Asteroids May Have Seeded Life on Earth

hahaha... rock candy

28 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:03:44pm

Semi OT: Who the hell is Timothy Sandefur?

29 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:03:53pm

If Christianity is true, it has nothing to fear from scientific enquiry.

The whole ID thing seems to be just smoke and mirrors. The real goal is to get a particular belief taught in school. But to keep it all looking scientific, that belief, that faith, is so watered down to no longer be viable. Why not just say you want prayer in school and avoid all the melodrama?

30 akak  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:03:58pm

[Link: hotair.com...]

detention-for-refusing-to-pray-to-allah-in-religio us-ed-class?

/I'd go postal....

31 AuldTrafford  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:05:45pm

re: #1 soccerdad

I don't understand Charles' obsession with this topic. give it a rest.

Well, let's see whose name is on this blog. Maybe disgruntled readers should move on to another thread ... ?

32 Lynn B.  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:06:59pm

Oh, damn! I haven't even finished watching NOVA yet and now I've got more interesting stuff to read?

Not happening anytime soon, though.

33 FrogMarch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:07:04pm
Which leads me to a final concession to my ID foes: When they say that some proponents of evolution are blind followers, they're right. A few years ago I covered a conference of the American Atheists in Las Vegas. I met dozens of people there who were dead sure that evolutionary theory was correct though they didn't know a thing about adaptive radiation, genetic drift, or even plain old natural selection. They came to their Darwinism via a commitment to naturalism and atheism not through the study of science. They're still correct when they say evolution happens. But I'm afraid they're wrong to call themselves skeptics unencumbered by ideology. Many of them are best described as zealots. Ideological zeal isn't incompatible with good science; its coincidence with a theory proves nothing about that theory's explanatory power.

Should IDers be allowed to pursue their still very eccentric and outlying theory? Absolutely. There must be room, even respect, for eccentricity in science; it can lead to great discoveries. Alchemy led to chemistry. Astrology to astronomy. Much more often, of course, it leads nowhere. Looking for evidence of design in the natural world isn't itself unscientific (though, as I argue in my book, insisting that any designer must be a supernatural being is!) and if it were found, that would be big and fascinating news. But if I had a biology department with only seven faculty spots in it, I would not want someone who believed the cornerstone of modern biology was hogwash filling one of them. And I certainly don't want an improbable outlying hypothesis taught to my own teenage son as an alternative to one of the most powerful explanatory theories to illuminate the human mind.

yep.

34 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:08:16pm

re: #27 GOPninja

Gaia get's her sugar on!

35 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:08:20pm

When the evolutionists can PROVE their case with something other than theories, it can be treated as indisputable..

Problem with the evolutionists is they are not far removed from the Al Gores of the world in that they assert their THEORIES as fact and want to end debate.. The truth is they cannot explain the origin of man with facts, only plausible conjecture..

You cannot end debate when you cannot prove your case. Attempting to do so is the essence of closed-mindedness....

www.creationontheweb.com

36 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:08:49pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Semi OT: Who the hell is Timothy Sandefur?

[Link: pandasthumb.org...]

37 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:09:06pm

re: #32 Lynn B.

Oh, damn! I haven't even finished watching NOVA yet and now I've got more interesting stuff to read?

Not happening anytime soon, though.

Are you referring to the lead character opposite Charlton Heston in planet of the apes?

38 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:09:33pm

re: #35 natemannq

Problem with the evolutionists is they are not far removed from the Al Gores of the world in that they assert their THEORIES as fact and want to end debate..


Dude, we've been through that a million times already. Give it up.

39 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:10:27pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Dude, we've been through that a million times already. Give it up.

Dude, I didn't start the thread.

40 soccerdad  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:10:38pm

re: #13 Mardukhai

Thanks. Don't get me wrong...it's his blog and I'm a guest, so he can post and discuss any-damn-thing-he-wants. I kind of forgot that for a second, but that said, I'm just not into it.

41 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:11:01pm

re: #35 natemannq

You....didn't read the link, did you?

42 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:11:24pm

re: #35 natemannq

AAAAIIIIIIIIIIYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

43 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:12:06pm

re: #36 Charles

Ah, thanks. He has some interesting ideas: Darwin And Conservatism. Those Panda's thumb guys sure are verbose.

44 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:12:55pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Maybe life on Earth has even evolved twice, Killgore. Once before the last big asteroid hit (lots of yelling in arabic!) - and once after.

45 Roentgen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:13:47pm

re: #42 MandyManners
Here we go.

46 tremblur  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:13:59pm

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

47 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:15:04pm

re: #41 Sharmuta

yes, what's your point?

48 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:16:47pm

re: #42 MandyManners

Mandy, ... Boondock St. Bender and I want an update on the Great Frog Hunt.

49 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:17:38pm

re: #47 natemannq

My point? You have a lot of reading to do- that's my point. Here- I'll help you.

50 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:17:41pm

re: #46 tremblur

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

Please point out where I've used such words, or where I've crossed the line into "zealotry."

Hint: you can't. The thin-skinned attitudes of ardent creationists never cease to amaze me.

51 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:18:05pm

re: #46 tremblur

WTF don't you understand that this is CHARLES' blog?

52 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:18:57pm

re: #48 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Mandy, ... Boondock St. Bender and I want an update on the Great Frog Hunt.

We cannot find him.

Now, enough OT, please.

53 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:20:09pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

I don't think focusing on DNA would or should mean we back away from evolution. Isn't evolution an important theory explaining much of what students and scientists would be working with in working and learning about DNA?

It depends on exactly what one means by evolution. Let's consider the target audience for some of this public debate. So many people get confused about what exactly is meant by terms, such as evolution, species, even what science actually means.

Sometimes the scientific community uses definitions that are both precise and imprecise at the same time. For example, the term 'species' is actually difficult for biologists to define well. Every biology scientist defines 'species' precisely, but they don't necessarily have a consensus view on the definition. This doesn't lead to good discussions or good public policies.

Even more difficult is the word evolution. Most scientists, and frankly most people, accept the definition that evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. This is testable, has been tested, is used in modern medicine, and is an accepted theory. The problem, though, is that this definition is then extended to be used to say explicitly that this mechanism is known to be how humans are descended from primordial ooze, and it is again used as a weapon against faith.

54 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:20:13pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

It would seem your mind is made up, Mr. Gore.

55 soccerdad  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:20:21pm

re: #31 AuldTrafford

Well, let's see whose name is on this blog. Maybe disgruntled readers should move on to another thread ... ?


Generally when one has something constructive, positive and or enlightening to say, one should most definitely engage the QWERTY mechanism. (see entry #13 above).

When one is only going to spout a tautology or engage in 'defending' our Lizard overlord (like HE needs defending), it would be much better to forego the urge to engage said QWERTY mechanism.

But thanks.

56 FreeIowa  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:20:26pm

Speaking of Intelligent Design: Blogger admits Hawaii birth certificate forgery, subverting Obama claims
Sorry if this is old news.

57 Idle Drifter  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:21:20pm

re: #51 MandyManners

I believe tremblur is stepping across the line from debate to baseless accusations.

58 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:21:42pm

re: #35 natemannq

I wonder exactly what you would accept as proof since what I have read of what you have posted in these threads you seem to be someone ignorant of the basic principles and definitions underpinning science; someone without knowledge of the subject being discussed.

Please feel free to disabuse and correct me if I have mischaracterized you and your positions; but don't expect me to roll over and play dead just because you say so, and refuse to play by the established rules and guidelines.

59 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:22:03pm

re: #56 FreeIowa

Speaking of Intelligent Design: Blogger admits Hawaii birth certificate forgery, subverting Obama claims
Sorry if this is old news.

He did NOT admit to forging the Obama document. This story is a huge nothing. The document is real, and I suspect the whole thing is a clumsy trap that some bloggers are falling for.

60 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:22:37pm

re: #32 Lynn B.

Oh, damn! I haven't even finished watching NOVA yet

/synopsis: lawyers rock and get the job done

61 Idle Drifter  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:23:11pm

re: #57 Idle Drifter

I take that back, it's natamannq.

62 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:23:44pm

re: #53 Fried Spam

Well- I think your point goes to show the woeful state of science education in this country. How do we fix this? And, I don't think the solution is as simple as teaching DNA over evolution when both are needed for a good understanding of biology.

63 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:25:59pm

re: #61 Idle Drifter

What's ironic is he's displaying the very close-mindedness he disparaged in his first comment.

64 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:26:29pm

re: #46 tremblur

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

And for umpteenth time:

Science doesn't require faith, it demands knowledge.

65 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:26:46pm

re: #58 FurryOldGuyJeans

I wonder exactly what you would accept as proof since what I have read of what you have posted in these threads you seem to be someone ignorant of the basic principles and definitions underpinning science; someone without knowledge of the subject being discussed.

Please feel free to disabuse and correct me if I have mischaracterized you and your positions; but don't expect me to roll over and play dead just because you say so, and refuse to play by the established rules and guidelines.

You sound like a relative of Allegory as well... Because someone disagrees, they are stupid and unwilling to look at the facts..

Interesting. My guess is that you're critical of Al Gore and the Global Warmers while engaging in the same tactics yourself.. There's a name for that.

www.creationontheweb.com

Can you read that?

66 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:27:57pm

Wow, They're out in force this afternoon.

67 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:28:23pm

re: #46 tremblur

There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

I have indeed seen that from a great many posters on these threads, particularly as the comment posts get very numerous.


Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

I'll have to stick up for Charles at this point. He has not been doing what you have said. Others have, but not him. As I read it, he is strongly against ID in science class in public schools. I am not in favor of it either. However, to some very small extent I find myself sympathetic to teaching ID in K-12 simply as a reaction to the zealotry exhibited by many strident evolutionists that want to squash any personal belief in God.

68 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:28:23pm

I disagree with those who think this is not such an important issue. This question goes to the very heart of the success of modern Western civilization. A shift in our way of thinking about science and religion led to the development of the technology that let us subdue the Jihad where much of the rest of the world succumbed.

The problem with the kind of thinking advocated by ID proponents and the Discovery Institute is not just that it is dishonest, which is bad enough, but that it completely erases the dividing line between faith and science. It tells children that reality is whatever they want it to be. This kind of thinking feeds on itself. It becomes hard for people to find agreement or persuade others through rational argument & debate because one person's "reality" is considered just as good as another's, and there is no longer a universally accepted tool for winnowing the good and correct ideas from the bad ones.

Of course, humankind did manage to do this before the rules of science were codified, but it was a very slow and clumsy process. Science refined the process, and European society's acceptance of the scientific enterprise catapulted their civilization above all others in the world and led to the rebirth of democracy.

69 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:28:48pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Wow, They're out in force this afternoon.

/irony

70 Idle Drifter  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:29:30pm

re: #63 Sharmuta

Reminds me of many examples from many different groups of people. The debate devolves into poo flinging and we a have a full blown flame war.

71 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:29:31pm

re: #65 natemannq

You sound like a relative of Allegory as well... Because someone disagrees, they are stupid and unwilling to look at the facts..

Interesting. My guess is that you're critical of Al Gore and the Global Warmers while engaging in the same tactics yourself.. There's a name for that.

www.creationontheweb.com

Can you read that?

Are you aware that Creation Ministries International has collaborated with radical Islamic Turkish creationist Harun Yahya? Do you care? Does that sound like a good idea to you?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: www.evolutiondeceit.com...]

72 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:30:09pm

re: #57 Idle Drifter

I believe tremblur is stepping across the line from debate to baseless accusations.

Or, just being an asshole.

73 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:31:23pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

I posted much of this in an earlier ID thread, but by the time I was able to do so, it was fairly far down on the chain. I bring it up again hoping to change the tone of some of these threads. I've read a lot of them, and they tend to devolve into name calling among various folks. Perhaps naively, I'm hoping that there is a way out of this type of thing without resorting to folks attacking each other.

I am a Christian, and also an engineer by degree. If you know anything about engineering education, there is a tremendous amount of science that goes into that. ;>

That combined perspective gives me a somewhat unique look at this debate. I read some evolutionists that say 'I believe in evolution'. As a Christian, that sounds like faith to me. As a person fully grounded in scientific education, I don't want science classes teaching faith, whether it be ID or evolution.

Sal: It is not necessary to believe in evolutionary theory, for there is a vast mass of evidence supporting it, so people can in fact know that it is valid and sound science to a statistically stratospheric degree of certainty. ID, on the other hand, has not a single shred of empirical scientific evidence supporting it, hence, it cannot be known, and must be either believed in or not, like any other religious assertion.

Specifically, here's where I see the flaw in Darwinistic evolution. A biologist can indeed test his theories in a lab, or in nature, to the extent that species adapt and change to their environment. In order to test Darwin's theories about speciation, i.e., a lower form evolving into a higher form, one has always had to switch from biologists to paleontologists. That can't be duplicated in a lab, and it's that leap of faith that troubles so many people, and so few can apparently articulate. Further, people pin their faith on Darwin to the extent that they say something to the extent of 'biology is based on evolution'.

Sal: Actually, all we have to do is look at the many thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences that are found in identical locations in the genomes of related living species, and acknowledge that the chances of them being there in the absence of common ancestors are, statistically speaking, exponentially less likely than that someone can buy a single ticket in every sweepstakes, horserace and lottery on the planet, and win them all, while simultaneously rolling boxcars 1200 times in a row at a Las vegas craps table.

I think that there is a way out of the acrimonious debate, which is largely why I'm posting. From what I understand of biology, every living thing that we know about is based on deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA. Therefore, I would contend that biology is based on DNA.

If that is the case, then why shouldn't K-12 biology education be based on DNA? Let's start orienting the curriculum towards something that is much more testable, has many more direct scientific applications, and is much less controversial?

Anyone with me?

Sal: As I pointed out above, sticking with DNA ends up supporting evolutionary theory to such an asymptotically-approaching-absolute-proof degree that the mathematical space between it's likelihood and lead-pipe cinch apodictic certainty could not accommodate a single lepton.

74 FreeIowa  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:32:13pm

re: #59 Charles

Thanks. Good point.

75 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:32:55pm

re: #71 Charles

Are you aware that Creation Ministries International has collaborated with radical Islamic Turkish creationist Harun Yahya? Do you care? Does that sound like a good idea to you?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: www.evolutiondeceit.com...]

No, I wasn't aware but I know a couple of people at Creation Ministries and you can guarantee I will call them on it..

76 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:33:15pm

re: #65 natemannq

the bottom line is id is not science and does not belong in a science classroom.show me one executeable experiment that id has.

77 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:33:54pm

re: #7 Fried Spam

Sal: I am fine with teaching science, including evolutionary theory, in high school science class, and excluding both religious assertions and religious denials from it, since neither of them is science.

78 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:34:13pm

re: #68 Tigger2005

It [ID] tells children that reality is whatever they want it to be.

Yet some religionists insist that's godless materialists who are a bunch of moral relativists.

79 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:34:30pm

re: #39 natemannq

Dude, I didn't start the thread.

No, but it's been explained a million times on these threads that theories, in science, are not guesses or speculation, which is what "theory" means in popular usage. In science "theory" has a technical meaning and it always has. It is an accepted explanation for a phenomena or set of phenomena, determined through evidence, observation, experimentation, the testing of hypotheses (which ARE "speculation," or "guesses," although educated ones).

However, you are still using the word "THEORY" in a dismissive, pejorative fashion, as in "Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven." Which makes it clear that either haven't read these threads, or nothing has sunk in, or you are being deliberately obtuse.

80 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:35:41pm

re: #67 Fried Spam

I have indeed seen that from a great many posters on these threads, particularly as the comment posts get very numerous.

Actually, let me revise my own comment. I have indeed seen a great many posts as you describe, from a small number of individuals. I think that the vast majority of people are willing to compromise and come to a consensus as long as it doesn't contradict their core beliefs, but there are some that are fundamentalists and crusaders. The fundamentalists and crusaders can be evolutionists and atheists as well as creationists.

81 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:36:31pm

re: #79 Tigger2005

"OBUSE!?OBTUSE!I'll cast you down to the sodomites!"
/shaeshank redemption off

82 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:36:59pm

re: #65 natemannq

You sound like a relative of Allegory as well... Because someone disagrees, they are stupid and unwilling to look at the facts..

Interesting. My guess is that you're critical of Al Gore and the Global Warmers while engaging in the same tactics yourself.. There's a name for that.

www.creationontheweb.com

Can you read that?

Oh so wrong, bubulah. I said you were IGNORANT, not STUPID.

Words do have meaning, you know. You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Understand the underpinnings of science before you start trying to take up the discussion with others here, or you will most definitely be condemned by your very own words as a person of ignorance.

Feel free to disagree with me all you wish. Just don't expect me to not disagree back. At least I will do my best to keep it on a civil level.

Oh, and I have already spent considerable time at the website you linked. Read it, evaluated it, and deemed it as lacking in rigor, depth, and understanding.

83 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:38:27pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh, and I have already spent considerable time at the website you linked. Read it, evaluated it, and deemed it as lacking in rigor, depth, and understanding.

You're much more diplomatic than me. I would call it "absolute hooey."

84 profitsbeard  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:39:17pm

Since the Universe is apparently eternal and boundless (every before has a before that, every barrier has a beyond), the "origin" of Life question must take on a more narrow meaning.

The Cosmos may be always generating complex mixtures of proto-life (amino acid precursors, prions, etc.) from its fundamental energy-matter matrixes... as naturally as it generates hydrogen and then coalesces the atoms into gravity-guided spheres... and if there never was a time when there was "beginning", then origins becomes a localized exercise in tracing down organisms to their primoridial forms, here.

Since we are unlikely to ever be able to know beyond our own senses (and their extensions through our inventions) and inherent mental limits and relatively-infinitesimal lifespans and the Red Barrier of light, what lies beyond the observable, localized "Big Bang" region of the boundless Universe will remain a permanent and tantalyzing Mystery.

(But the "opposite" infinity, downwards, holds equally endless possibilities... that nanotech is just touching... for our inquiries, and gave us Zeno's tantalizing ancient paradox of the arrow which could never reach its target.)

85 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:40:10pm

re: #18 Fried Spam

From the linked article:

This gets back to an original precept of mine. Isn't DNA the cornerstone of biology? As such, shouldn't it be the basis of biology education?

Sal: Actually, the cornerstones of biology are random mutation and nonrandom (environment caused) natural selection of traits in organisms, via differential survival and reproduction rates, with DNA being the material substrate that codes the traits, and the mutations, being environmentally selected for and against. This is known as evolutionary theory

86 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:40:38pm

re: #76 Boondock St. Bender

the bottom line is id is not science and does not belong in a science classroom.show me one executeable experiment that id has.

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

Using your logic, we should all pack up our tents on the Global Warming argument as well.

87 RotorcraftJOE  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:41:26pm

I think the Gordy Slack article was well thought out and written well. His points were presented well. The reply by Nick Matzke sounded rather arrogant.

88 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:41:30pm

re: #83 Charles

You're much more diplomatic than me. I would call it "absolute hooey."

I might have as well if I were the owner of the blog. Alas, I am but a guest here, and so should comport myself as such. ;)

89 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:41:35pm

re: #22 gopninja

fine by me, as long as that single ancestor is 10,000 years old.

Sal: I see deep disappointment and dismay in your future.

90 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:42:26pm

re: #81 Boondock St. Bender

"OBUSE!?OBTUSE!I'll cast you down to the sodomites!"
/shaeshank redemption off

LOL I actually cannot use that word without thinking about that movie (a great one).

91 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:42:36pm

re: #27 GOPninja

hahaha... rock candy

Big Rock Candy Mountain

92 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:42:45pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh so wrong, bubulah. I said you were IGNORANT, not STUPID.

Words do have meaning, you know. You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Understand the underpinnings of science before you start trying to take up the discussion with others here, or you will most definitely be condemned by your very own words as a person of ignorance.

Feel free to disagree with me all you wish. Just don't expect me to not disagree back. At least I will do my best to keep it on a civil level.

Oh, and I have already spent considerable time at the website you linked. Read it, evaluated it, and deemed it as lacking in rigor, depth, and understanding.

A little testy when someone disagrees with you, huh? I like how you hurl insults and then blame others for doing it to you.

wow

93 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:43:22pm

re: #92 natemannq

A little testy when someone disagrees with you, huh? I like how you hurl insults and then blame others for doing it to you.

wow

Gee- like calling some one al gore? You, sir, are a hypocrite.

94 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:43:44pm

re: #23 ladycatnip

#13 Mardukhai


Agree. The slow creep of islam in education is far more toxic and dangerous than ID. The latest is about two boys in the UK being given detention because they refused to pray to allah.

I happen to believe God is the Creator of all things, but have no interest in inserting my faith into the high school science curriculum. Even within the community of faith there is so much disagreement on whether it's evolution, Big Bang, Gap Theory, Old Earth, New Earth, or ID. Making room for anything faith-based simply opens the doors to islam.

Sal: Just because the bubonic plague is a greater threat than lyme disease is no reason not to address them both, as they are both dangerous. This blog can walk and chew gum at the same time.

95 ec marm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:46:08pm

re: #59 Charles

He did NOT admit to forging the Obama document. This story is a huge nothing. The document is real, and I suspect the whole thing is a clumsy trap that some bloggers are falling for.


The seal that should have been visible on the scanned document evolved into paper? Gateway Pundit, who I consider to be a trustworthy, non-shark jumping blog, is linking to the story. You don't want to hedge just a little? It is Kos, after all, who'll end up with egg on his face, if he got 'shopped.

96 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:46:41pm

re: #93 Sharmuta

Let him/her quietly fold his/her global tent in gloom and
silence.

97 po8crg  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:46:49pm

It's worth pointing out that evolution by means of natural selection explains the DIVERSITY of life, not the EXISTENCE of life. Like most science, it addresses a relatively narrow question - given that there was a last common ancestor, how do we get to the diversity of life that now exists?

That's why it's not really sensible to see evolution and creation as being in opposition; the origination of life is the question of abiogenesis - how does life arise from non-life? Most scientists will simply say "We don't know".

Incidentally, to the strictest of scientific minds, even if you could prove that God did something that wouldn't settle the question. You'd then have to have theories on why God chose to do what he did and not something else; people trying to conduct repeatable experiments on God; you'd also have people trying to look into the origins question - where did God come from? I really don't want scientists sticking their noses into those questions, thanks.

98 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:47:15pm

re: #86 natemannq

not at all,as was previously stated ad nauseum.this issue is merly a catspaw to get religion back in the schools.in a sneaky and underhanded way i might add.very un cristian-like.

99 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:47:35pm

re: #96 Mike in Georgia

PIMF warming

100 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:50:47pm

Report: Uranium Stockpile Removed From Iraq in Secret U.S. Mission

The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program — a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium — reached a Canadian port Saturday to complete a secret U.S. operation that included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a ship voyage crossing two oceans.

The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" — the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment — was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. It also brought relief to U.S. and Iraqi authorities who had worried the cache would reach insurgents or smugglers crossing to Iran to aid its nuclear ambitions.

What is now left is the final and complicated push to clean up the remaining radioactive debris at the former Tuwaitha nuclear complex about 12 miles (19 kilometers) south of Baghdad — using teams that include Iraqi experts recently trained in the Chernobyl fallout zone in Ukraine.

/has anyone told Joe Wilson and his CIA desk jockey wife yet?

101 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:50:47pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

Just out of curiosity, which particular scripture do you assert is the oldest documented history of man?

102 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:54:03pm

re: #92 natemannq

A little testy when someone disagrees with you, huh? I like how you hurl insults and then blame others for doing it to you.

wow

Testy? Nah. You wouldn't want to see me get testy, bubulah, let alone mad. ;)

Do you know the difference between ignorance and stupidity? I have my doubts, but do show me the error of my ways if I am mistaken.

If you want to play you really do need to learn the rules of the game, and the game here is called science.

If you think what I have been throwing at you are insults, all I can say is: "You ain't seen nothing yet."

103 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:54:52pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture.

No shit, Sherlock.

What school did you attend creationist madrassah were you brainwashed in?

104 rawmuse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:55:18pm

re: #100 Killian Bundy

I wrote a letter to the McCain campaign telling them, for the sake of all we hold dear, to RUN with this damn story.

W, the biggest mistake he has made has been to lose the war of Public Relations. He has let his biggest domestic enemies define him and the GWOT, to his, and our profound detriment. Our small failures make headlines for weeks, and our enormous successes are lost in anonymity. This must not continue.

The bad news is that it may already be too late.

105 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:56:13pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

Using your logic, we should all pack up our tents on the Global Warming argument as well.

Uh, there are "documented" creation stories that are much older than Scripture.

And no, accepting evolution does not mean packing up tents on Global Warming. The theory of Evolution has been around 150 years and every single piece of evidence collected from every branch of science, every observation, every experiment conducted in all those years has confirmed and supported it. Not ONE piece of evidence has been brought forward to discredit it. And that's all evolution deniers need...ONE single piece of evidence. The theory of Evolution is science partly because it is falsifiable. All you have to do is produce one piece of evidence to pull it down. Yet the "Discovery" institute, the Creation "Research" people, William Dembski, Michael Behe, et all can't be bothered to produce this evidence or even try to find it.

(Oh, but obviously they have the evidence but they're being prevented from getting it out by the vast scientist/atheist/devil worshiper conspiracy!)

The global warming hypothesis is very new, and understanding and mapping/tracking global weather and cooling/heating patterns is very difficult even with the use of modern technology, computer modeling, etc. There is also an enormous amount of bias and human error at play. This is always the case in science, but the whole thing about the scientific process is that it's designed to overcome human error. Already we are seeing science correcting itself on global warming, with many scientists rejecting the extremist scenarios and others offering alternative (but scientific) hypotheses.

106 Idle Drifter  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:57:05pm

re: #101 Slumbering Behemoth

I was curious about that as well, Chinese, Egyptian, and Babylonian histories go quiet a ways into the past.

107 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:58:29pm

re: #106 Idle Drifter

I was curious about that as well, Chinese, Egyptian, and Babylonian histories go quiet a ways into the past.

/well before the written word

108 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:59:08pm

The shouting about this subject, Darwin vs. ID, comes from trying to put theology into a science box.

Let's quit shouting

It does no good, either to science or theology

109 Paul  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:59:12pm

Another milestone on the road to dhimmitude. English schoolboys punished for refusing to pray to Allah.

110 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:01:10pm

re: #97 po8crg

And anyway, Thomas Aquinas explored most of the theology already.

111 zach_the_lizard  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:01:13pm

Am I the only one who saw "OOL" and thought "Object Oriented Language?" I quickly dove through the text, only to discover it was the "origin of life" question. Though interested in both topics, I was hoping to get my (computer) nerd on.

/sigh

112 JohnnyReb  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:01:31pm

re: #109 Paul

Another milestone on the road to dhimmitude. English schoolboys punished for refusing to pray to Allah.

A voice of sanity in the war:

"But if Muslims were asked to go to church on Sunday and take Holy Communion there would be war."

113 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:02:24pm

re: #35 natemannq

When the evolutionists can PROVE their case with something other than theories, it can be treated as indisputable..

Sal: Yet another person who does not understand how strong a theory is in science, and how much supporting empirical evidence is required for such a designation to be granted.

Problem with the evolutionists is they are not far removed from the Al Gores of the world in that they assert their THEORIES as fact and want to end debate.. The truth is they cannot explain the origin of man with facts, only plausible conjecture..

Sal: And ignorant of the work done in the field, too, such as the thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences found in identical locations in the genomes of humans and great apes. The chances of them all occurring as they are and where they do in the absence of common ancestors are, statistically speaking, vanishingly small. And this point has been made here over and over and over again, without a single credible refutation.

You cannot end debate when you cannot prove your case. Attempting to do so is the essence of closed-mindedness....

www.creationontheweb.com

Sal: And also, this person does not understand that science(although it can prove things absolutely false) cannot, in principle, prove anything true 100% as that would foreclose any chance for further empirical evidence to refine a theory. However evolutionary theory is supported by such a vast mass of evidence that the chances of the basics being flawed is vanishingly, infinitesimally small, and for all practical purposes, nonexistent. And no credible empirical evidence has ever been presented that contradicts its basic tenets.

There is no rational doubt that evolution happens. Species change over time. There is also no rational doubt that mutation, natural selection, and DNA are involved.

114 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:03:17pm

re: #101 Slumbering Behemoth

Just out of curiosity, which particular scripture do you assert is the oldest documented history of man?

George Burns' drivers license.
/

115 poteen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:04:40pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

That, simply, is not true.

116 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:05:33pm

re: #106 Idle Drifter

It seems that an answer will not be coming anytime soon. I got stuffs to do, so I'll see you Lizards later.

117 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:07:54pm
118 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:08:01pm

re: #67 Fried Spam

However, to some very small extent I find myself sympathetic to teaching ID in K-12 simply as a reaction to the zealotry exhibited by many strident evolutionists that want to squash any personal belief in God.

Hmmm. It's the atheists' fault?

119 ornery elephant  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:08:38pm

re: #115 poteen

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

That, simply, is not true.

Exactly. everyone knows the oldest documented history of man was Darwin's great, great, great, great, grandad...an Amoeba who wrote the best seller "Swimming with the Sharks"

120 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:08:41pm
121 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:09:41pm

re: #46 tremblur

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

Sal: Another couple of the Wedge Strategy talking points; link evolutionary theory to atheism or naturalism, even if such links are illegitimate and fallacious, and endeavor to equate a support of the scientific method and teaching its theoretical and empirical evidence fruits with the advocacy of untestable and evidence-free sectarioan religious dogmas.

122 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:11:18pm

re: #75 natemannq

No, I wasn't aware but I know a couple of people at Creation Ministries and you can guarantee I will call them on it..

Will you email Charles and let us all know how that goes?

123 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:11:59pm

re: #100 Killian Bundy
I was telling friends about the stockpiles found in Iraq. They thought I was making it up like some sort of morris-rovian troofer.

124 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:12:01pm

re: #103 A. van Hilten

No shit, Sherlock.

What school did you attend creationist madrassah were you brainwashed in?

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

125 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:12:44pm

re: #119 ornery elephant

Exactly. everyone knows the oldest documented history of man was Darwin's great, great, great, great, grandad...an Amoeba who wrote the best seller "Swimming with the Sharks"

These evolutionists are rabid...

126 poteen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:13:22pm

re: #119 ornery elephant

see 117 above. But even older than that was my 1st grade Catechism teacher. Damn she was an OLD nun.

127 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:13:26pm

re: #122 Josephine

Will you email Charles and let us all know how that goes?

Absolutely. What's his email address?

128 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:13:43pm

re: #108 Ojoe

The shouting about this subject, Darwin vs. ID, comes from trying to put theology into a science box.

Let's quit shouting

It does no good, either to science or theology

Is there an IDiotic Table?

129 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:15:18pm

re: #94 Salamantis

This blog can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I think that would make a fine rotating title!

130 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:16:04pm

re: #53 Fried Spam

It depends on exactly what one means by evolution. Let's consider the target audience for some of this public debate. So many people get confused about what exactly is meant by terms, such as evolution, species, even what science actually means.

Sometimes the scientific community uses definitions that are both precise and imprecise at the same time. For example, the term 'species' is actually difficult for biologists to define well. Every biology scientist defines 'species' precisely, but they don't necessarily have a consensus view on the definition. This doesn't lead to good discussions or good public policies.

Even more difficult is the word evolution. Most scientists, and frankly most people, accept the definition that evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. This is testable, has been tested, is used in modern medicine, and is an accepted theory. The problem, though, is that this definition is then extended to be used to say explicitly that this mechanism is known to be how humans are descended from primordial ooze, and it is again used as a weapon against faith.

Sal: you should read the article that is the anchor of this thread. If religions insist upon asserting that they have the answers to empirical questions, they cannot complain when empirical evidence supports, not the answers of those religions, but other answers. When religious dogmas attempt to invade the scientific realm, it should not complain about being expelled from there by means of the weapons of logic, facts and evidence.

131 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:16:34pm

re: #129 Josephine

don't ask us to pat our heads and rub our bellies though.

132 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:17:18pm

re: #54 natemannq

It would seem your mind is made up, Mr. Gore.

It would seem that your mind is made up, Mr. Phelps.

133 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:17:59pm

re: #124 natemannq

You are a hypocrite.

134 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:18:14pm

re: #128 debutaunt

Mostly it would have gasses?

135 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:18:44pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Wow, you're kidding, right?

136 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:19:03pm

re: #124 natemannq

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

No, you're just pulling shit out of your ass and rubbing it in our faces.

Get a freakin' education and cut your fundy bullshit. People will respect your "opinions" a lot more that way.

137 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:19:41pm

re: #136 A. van Hilten

language

138 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:00pm

re: #112 JohnnyReb

A voice of sanity in the war:

"But if Muslims were asked to go to church on Sunday and take Holy Communion there would be war."

I like this:

"Educating children in the beliefs of different faith is part of the diversity curriculum on the basis that knowledge is essential to understanding.

"We accept that such teaching is to be conducted with some sense of sensitivity."

As if they had to be convinced of it, like "We really want to ram it down their little throats, but we've been told we have to tone it down a bit."

139 ornery elephant  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:04pm

re: #132 Salamantis

It would seem that your mind is made up, Mr. Phelps.

It would seem that your mind is made up, Mr. Dawkins

140 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:17pm

re: #137 Ojoe

not to mention yuck!

141 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:42pm

re: #136 A. van Hilten

No, you're just pulling shit out of your ass and rubbing it in our faces.

Get a freakin' education and cut your fundy bullshit. People will respect your "opinions" a lot more that way.

Am I on LGF or the Daily Kos?

142 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:46pm

re: #124 natemannq

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

And smearing people who disagree with you with the broad brush of Al Gore and ACC is you taking the high and moral road? Yeesh.

You want friendly, then act civil when in other people's company, having the decency of learning about the subject of which others speak. I've read a lot about ID, and have not found the claims to be credible as legitimate scientific inquiry.

143 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:22:14pm

re: #124 natemannq

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

Some of "us people" don't have a lot of patience with those who can't be bothered to learn anything.

When you've heard the stupid, ignorant "Evolution is just a theory" remark ten thousand times it gets irritating.

144 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:22:24pm

re: #142 FurryOldGuyJeans

And smearing people who disagree with you with the broad brush of Al Gore and ACC is you taking the high and moral road? Yeesh.

You want friendly, then act civil when in other people's company, having the decency of learning about the subject of which others speak. I've read a lot about ID, and have not found the claims to be credible as legitimate scientific inquiry.

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

145 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:23:12pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

ID has no place in a science class. None.

146 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:23:19pm

re: #65 natemannq

You sound like a relative of Allegory as well... Because someone disagrees, they are stupid and unwilling to look at the facts..

Interesting. My guess is that you're critical of Al Gore and the Global Warmers while engaging in the same tactics yourself.. There's a name for that.

www.creationontheweb.com

Can you read that?

Sal: Another person trying to tar A with a brush dipped in B.

But have you looked at the facts, without memetic filtering, and not merely confined yourself to cognitively undissonant propaganda proferred by your favorite creationists sites? My guess is no. But all you have to do to get educated is to click on evolution, creeationism, and intelligent design in the tag storm, and read the articles thaqt come up, and the links in them.

147 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:23:51pm

re: #142 FurryOldGuyJeans

And smearing people who disagree with you with the broad brush of Al Gore and ACC is you taking the high and moral road? Yeesh.

You want friendly, then act civil when in other people's company, having the decency of learning about the subject of which others speak. I've read a lot about ID, and have not found the claims to be credible as legitimate scientific inquiry.

Al Gore wouldn't like it if he knew you considered being likened to him a "smear".

148 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:24:02pm

re: #142 FurryOldGuyJeans

Doing a little homework, and learning about this topic requires work and effort. That's hard. It's much easier to resort to ad hominem and wallow in ignorance.

149 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:24:14pm

re: #145 MandyManners

ID has no place in a science class. None.

Defense rests..

150 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:24:46pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

ID is not science- period.

151 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:24:49pm

re: #127 natemannq

Absolutely. What's his email address?

Top of the page, left hand side, beneath the box with your user name, etc., there is a list in green lettering that starts with "LGF Headlines" and ends with "Contact". Click on the triangle beside "Contact" to send him an email.

I'm sure a lot of people would like to understand more about the connection between those two groups.

152 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:25:26pm

re: #146 Salamantis

Sal: Another person trying to tar A with a brush dipped in B.

But have you looked at the facts, without memetic filtering, and not merely confined yourself to cognitively undissonant propaganda proferred by your favorite creationists sites? My guess is no. But all you have to do to get educated is to click on evolution, creeationism, and intelligent design in the tag storm, and read the articles thaqt come up, and the links in them.

That last paragraph had a tinge of elitism to it... Long on words, low on substance.

153 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:25:49pm

re: #137 Ojoe

language

Sorry, but I just find it offensive when someone insults my intelligence by making baseless assertions like that.

Is Disco Institute now in the process of subverting History as well?

154 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:26:28pm

re: #135 natemannq

You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Wow, you're kidding, right?

No, I am not kidding. Try learning at least some basics of a subject before you start espousing any knowledge on the subject. There is a VAST difference between ignorance and stupidity. Show you are of the former and not the latter as you have been so fond of demonstrating lately.

155 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:26:47pm

re: #151 Josephine

Top of the page, left hand side, beneath the box with your user name, etc., there is a list in green lettering that starts with "LGF Headlines" and ends with "Contact". Click on the triangle beside "Contact" to send him an email.

I'm sure a lot of people would like to understand more about the connection between those two groups.

Will do...

A little ironic that I'm willing to explore challenges to my position but so many others on here are unwilling to do the same while calling me "ignorant"..

156 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:26:58pm

re: #145 MandyManners

& Science, well taught, probably leads to a sense of the wonder and mystery of creation anyway.

Which sense is kind of religious.

I don't understand the stridency around this subject.

157 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:27:17pm

re: #141 natemannq

Am I on LGF or the Daily Kos?

Unfortunately for you, this is "the site that fact-checks your ass."

158 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:28:29pm

re: #153 A. van Hilten

Sorry, but I just find it offensive when someone insults my intelligence by making baseless assertions like that.

Is Disco Institute now in the process of subverting History as well?

Nothing like blaming others for your own anger..

159 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:28:40pm

re: #147 natemannq

You keep mentioning Al Gore. He isn't relevant to this subject.

160 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:29:02pm

re: #157 A. van Hilten

Unfortunately for you, this is "the site that fact-checks your ass."

You're a really friendly guy. Has anyone told you?

161 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:29:41pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

If I was you, natemannq, I'd start expanding it with the aid of a proctologist.

162 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:30:08pm

re: #159 jaunte

You keep mentioning Al Gore. He isn't relevant to this subject.

Al Gore = Global Warming is real and man-made... End of Discussion.

Evolutionists = Evolution is real and how man was made.. End of Discussion.

Get it now?

163 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:30:44pm

re: #162 natemannq

Neither discussion is ended.

164 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:30:52pm

re: #161 A. van Hilten

If I was you, natemannq, I'd start expanding it with the aid of a proctologist.

Where are the "ad hominem" attacks coming from again?

165 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:31:21pm

re: #143 Tigger2005

Some of "us people" don't have a lot of patience with those who can't be bothered to learn anything.

When you've heard the stupid, ignorant "Evolution is just a theory" remark ten thousand times it gets irritating.

By the way, I've always found that when people post on pro-evolution boards and express skepticism about evolution, but evince a genuine curiousity and interest in the subject (as well as courtesy) and a willingness to learn, they are generally treated with courtesy and respect in return. Most will even respond patiently to the question "But isn't evolution just a theory?" even if they've heard it ten thousand times before, if it's clear the question is being asked in good faith.

I've also found that the average pro-evolution poster knows far more about ID than the average pro-ID person knows about evolution, because most of the pro-ID people have only been exposed to distorted, strawman versions of evolution (like that found in the movie "Expelled").

166 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:31:52pm

re: #67 Fried Spam

I have indeed seen that from a great many posters on these threads, particularly as the comment posts get very numerous.

I'll have to stick up for Charles at this point. He has not been doing what you have said. Others have, but not him. As I read it, he is strongly against ID in science class in public schools. I am not in favor of it either. However, to some very small extent I find myself sympathetic to teaching ID in K-12 simply as a reaction to the zealotry exhibited by many strident evolutionists that want to squash any personal belief in God.

Sal: I have seen people who simply want nothing but science taught in public high school science class derided in these threads as atheists, materialists, relativists, communists, nazis, and corrupt, wicked ghouls lacking all moral compunctions. Remove the beam from your own side's mouth before plucking the mote out of ours.

As to the idea of inserting religious dogmas into high school science class in order to provide a counterbalance for all these raving atheists which you seem to be certain permeate America's public school system, I'm in favor of simply counseling teachers that bring up either religious assertions or religious denials in science class, and canning them if the behavior persists. I am NOT in favor of shoehorning sectarian religious dogmas into high school science glass via the fig leaf of 'evenhandedness.'

167 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:32:02pm

re: #162 natemannq

Do you know what the scientific method is?

168 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:33:01pm

re: #132 Salamantis

Hey Salamantis - Do you think it reasonable life on this planet may have arrived from a meteor then evolved? (links in comments 24,26)

Would that alter current scientific timetables and hypotheses about lightning striking primordial ooze?

169 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:34:31pm

re: #167 Sharmuta

Do you know what the scientific method is?

Yes, and gathering empirical evidence for the purpose of experimentation using reason has its place.

So does faith.

170 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:34:34pm

Did I mention that Al Gore is an idiot and his science is junk.

171 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:34:37pm

re: #75 natemannq

No, I wasn't aware but I know a couple of people at Creation Ministries and you can guarantee I will call them on it..

Sal: Now why does the fact that you know people at Creation Ministries not surprise me?

172 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:35:18pm

re: #169 natemannq

How do you apply ID to the scientific method?

173 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:35:58pm

re: #171 Salamantis

Sal: Now why does the fact that you know people at Creation Ministries not surprise me?

There's that open mind at work..

Keep it up, you're doing great.

174 akak  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:36:49pm
WASHINGTON, July 4: When Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani meets President George W. Bush at the White House on June 28, he will tell the US leader that Islamabad will tolerate a US incursion into Fata if it is directed specifically against Al Qaeda leaders Osama bin Laden or Ayman Al Zawahiri – but nobody else, says a report published on Friday

dawn

well he's bad bad Leroy Brown badest man in the whole damn town.

[Link: dawn.com...]

175 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:39:03pm

re: #164 natemannq

Where are the "ad hominem" attacks coming from again?

Oh, borhter. Do you seriously expect me to "respect" your delicate sensibilities when you post this BS?

"THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture."

Sorry, but willful ignorance is deserving only of contempt.

176 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:39:10pm
177 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:39:22pm

re: #149 natemannq

Oh, go piss up a rope.

178 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:39:53pm

re: #149 natemannq

You're now on GAZE.

179 LizardBennet  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:07pm

OT--but this is just nuts

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

180 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:09pm

re: #169 natemannq

Yes, and gathering empirical evidence for the purpose of experimentation using reason has its place.

So does faith.

And the place for faith is at home, in church, in religion classes, not in science class, and actually, not in any public school class at all. Do you want your children learning whichever version of faith your local school board approves, from a teacher who probably knows nothing of theology and certainly isn't qualified to teach it? Wouldn't it be much better for you to teach your child your faith at home, in the house of worship you attend, or through religion classes you have chosen, taught by someone certified to teach your religion?

181 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:13pm

re: #172 Sharmuta

How do you apply ID to the scientific method?

Did I mention Faith?

I thought I did.

182 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:51pm

re: #177 MandyManners

Oh, go piss up a rope.

I'm surrounded by Kos kids..

This is NOT what I expected here..

wow

183 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:53pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Astronomy Picture of the Day
Wow.

Oh, my stars! That is gorgeous.

184 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:53pm

re: #181 natemannq

How do you apply the scientific method to that?!

185 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:41:44pm

re: #183 MandyManners

Read the description, I didn't notice the comet at first.

186 jorline  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:41:58pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Astronomy Picture of the Day
Wow.

Great pic, Killgore

187 WindHorse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:42:20pm

re: #174 akak

...something is wrong with that article, if you ask me.... "when he... meets George Bush.... on June 28.... he will tell....

and the article is dated July 4.

Will this fellow meet Bush NEXT June 28th?

188 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:42:34pm

re: #184 Sharmuta

re: #184 Sharmuta

How do you apply the scientific method to that?!

Now we're getting somewhere.

189 LizardBennet  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:42:45pm

oops--I made my nic blue by putting that link as being my website accidentally. I don't usually post links so I wasn't sure how to do it.

190 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:43:04pm

re: #188 natemannq

Tell me how you apply the scientific method to ID.

191 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:43:05pm

re: #182 natemannq

I'm surrounded by Kos kids..

This is NOT what I expected here..

wow

Feel the love!

192 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:44:34pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

Sal: Sorry about that, but there are many writings that are older than the Old Testament. One of my personal favorites is the Epic of Gilgamesh, which tells a Great Flood story waay before the Old Testament Noah could have been born. Another is the Hammurabic Code, which contains many of the Ten Commandments and dates to long before Noah's purported birth.

Using your logic, we should all pack up our tents on the Global Warming argument as well.

Sal: No, because of the difference. GoreBull Warming is bad science, which is why scientists who are following the empirical evidence are leaving its bandwagon in droves; IDF is pseudoscience, which means there is not a shred of empirical evidence supporting it, and never will be, because it is not empirically testable. It is religious dogma poorly masquerading as science, and abjectly failing to do so.

193 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:45:39pm

re: #87 RotorcraftJOE

I think the Gordy Slack article was well thought out and written well. His points were presented well. The reply by Nick Matzke sounded rather arrogant.

Sal: I guess your definition of arrogant is 'chocked full of facts which contradict your position.'

194 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:47:37pm

re: #92 natemannq

A little testy when someone disagrees with you, huh? I like how you hurl insults and then blame others for doing it to you.

wow

Sal: Describing something as it in fact is may make your hackles rise, but, by definition, the truth can be neither slander nor insult.

195 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:49:04pm

Faith and Science are not mutually exclusive.

196 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:49:21pm

Come on, nate- you claim to understand the scientific method. Give us an example of how it can be applied to ID. A number of us have been waiting weeks, months for such an example. You'll be heralded as a hero to the ID movement. Just one example.... We're all waiting.

197 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:50:42pm

re: #194 Salamantis

Sal: Describing something as it in fact is may make your hackles rise, but, by definition, the truth can be neither slander nor insult.

The truth will set us free, but first it will make us miserable™

198 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:51:45pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

ID is not science, so any addition of it is not required nor should be allowed in a school SCIENCE class. There are so many things wrong with the current state of American Education, but ID taught as science is not a solution.

Oh so wrong again, bubulah. I am not opposed to ANY exposure of ID in school. It should just have no inclusion in any science curriculum, period. Have a philosophy class, or comparative religion class, and go get them warm fuzzies.

You really do need to bone up on some science basics.
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
re: #147 natemannq

Al Gore wouldn't like it if he knew you considered being likened to him a "smear".

What Al Gore thinks of me really doesn't interest me nor concern me one jot, tittle, or iota. But keep dodging with ad hominem attacks, bubulah, you are quickly shifting from being classified as ignorant. ;)
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------
re: #148 Sharmuta

Doing a little homework, and learning about this topic requires work and effort. That's hard. It's much easier to resort to ad hominem and wallow in ignorance.

Some people keep showing how easy it is to keep cursing the darkness and refuse to light that candle.

Guess I must be a space alien or something since I have always found it harder to NOT learn about something if my interest gets piqued. I just wish there was more time to learn about all that does. ;)

FYI, currently in the process of reading:

Programming Windows, Fifth Edition, Charles Petzold
Icon of Evil: Hitler's Mufti and the Rise of Radical Islam, David G. Dalin and John F. Rothman
James, The Brother of Jesus, Robert Eisenman
The Fate of the Romanovs, Greg King and Penny Wilson
Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, Herbert F. Solow and Robert H. Justman

So I am at a loss why someone in all seriousness would call me closed-minded. ;)

199 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:52:18pm

re: #97 po8crg

It's worth pointing out that evolution by means of natural selection explains the DIVERSITY of life, not the EXISTENCE of life. Like most science, it addresses a relatively narrow question - given that there was a last common ancestor, how do we get to the diversity of life that now exists?

That's why it's not really sensible to see evolution and creation as being in opposition; the origination of life is the question of abiogenesis - how does life arise from non-life? Most scientists will simply say "We don't know".

Incidentally, to the strictest of scientific minds, even if you could prove that God did something that wouldn't settle the question. You'd then have to have theories on why God chose to do what he did and not something else; people trying to conduct repeatable experiments on God; you'd also have people trying to look into the origins question - where did God come from? I really don't want scientists sticking their noses into those questions, thanks.

Sal: As the article anchoring this thread makes amply and abundantly clear, scientists know quite a bit more about abiogenesis than their religious detractors do.

But fear not; the questions you dread will never be posed, for proving either the existence or the nonexistence of deity is beyond the purview of science.

200 snowman  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:54:31pm

Charles, I respect your great political blogging...but please leave this for other forums. This begins to look like you're running around shoring up a building of rotting timbers. I see a bunch of non-productive name calling in this thread, and a whole lot of faith-based comments from both sides.


Let's leave this one alone.

201 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:55:31pm

re: #200 snowman

What's the name of your new blog?

202 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:55:32pm

re: #200 snowman

No.

203 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:55:34pm

re: #198 FurryOldGuyJeans

Guess I must be a space alien or something since I have always found it harder to NOT learn about something if my interest gets piqued. I just wish there was more time to learn about all that does. ;)

Me too. And this topic certainly piqued my interest- enough to buy a book on it, which taught me tons. And then there's all the material on line too.

And, like you, I'm reading more than one book at the moment too, with an ever growing list of others to get to. Makes me wish for more hours in the day, or an ability to get by with little to no sleep. :)

204 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:56:19pm

re: #107 Killian Bundy

/well before the written word

Sal|: But also having produced written texts considerably older than the Old Testament.

205 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:57:04pm

re: #162 natemannq

Al Gore = Global Warming is real and man-made... End of Discussion.

Evolutionists = Evolution is real and how man was made.. End of Discussion.

Get it now?

As I pointed out above, the theory of Evolution has been around for 150 years, and every single piece of evidence collected from every branch of science relevant to the theory has supported and further confirmed it, and not a single piece of evidence has discredited it. Furthermore it is a highly useful science--it can be used to make predictions which can be tested. It is useful for understanding how insects become resistant to pesticides, how germs resist antibiotics, how to produce higher crop yields, and so on. Yes, as far as the overall process by which life arrived at its present state of diversity, the discussion pretty much is ended, although there are still many, many questions remaining to be answered. Nevertheless it's as ridiculous to expect children to be taught "alternatives" to evolution as it is for them to be taught that they can make a TV work by either plugging it into an electrical outlet or energizing it with a charge of magical energy channeled through a wooden stick purchased in Diagon Alley. Why keep re-inventing the wheel? There simply aren't any credible scientific alternatives to evolution. If you want children to be taught one, then do the research and come up with one. Hint: ID ain't it.

The Global Warming issue is really not that comparable to evolution. Yes, both involve science. But global warming research is in its very early stages compared to evolution research, and it's a study of something vast and complex and dynamic and there are powerful political and economic forces and personal biases at play. Again, personal biases and the like affected the study of evolution as well, but evolution emerged from that intact, supported by all the accumulated evidence. On the other hand, there is still plenty of room for questioning the supposed consensus on global warming and doubting the catastrophic scenarios proposed by scare merchants like Al Gore. When someone goes around blaming every weather-related disaster on global warming, it's perfect legitimate to question the supposed "science" behind those claims.

206 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:57:15pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Astronomy Picture of the Day
Wow.

THANKS!

207 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:57:39pm

re: #108 Ojoe

The shouting about this subject, Darwin vs. ID, comes from trying to put theology into a science box.

Let's quit shouting

It does no good, either to science or theology

Sal: Actually, it comes from Theology trying to inject itself into the Science box, where it doesn't belong.

208 snowman  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:58:03pm

re: #201 debutaunt

new blog.... just the old one.

209 JohnnyReb  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:58:43pm

Leave God out of the classroom. I will teach my kids about God with the help of my preacher, that is our job, not some teacher in a public school classroom. Enough said.

210 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:59:47pm

re: #205 Tigger2005

Nevertheless it's as ridiculous to expect children to be taught "alternatives" to evolution as it is for them to be taught that they can make a TV work by either plugging it into an electrical outlet or energizing it with a charge of magical energy channeled through a wooden stick purchased in Diagon Alley.

That cracked me up- thanks.

211 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:59:52pm

re: #208 snowman

new blog.... just the old one.

Good luck to you! Any specific topics encouraged or excluded?

212 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:00:24pm

re: #119 ornery elephant

Exactly. everyone knows the oldest documented history of man was Darwin's great, great, great, great, grandad...an Amoeba who wrote the best seller "Swimming with the Sharks"

Sal: Check out the Rig Veda, an extended paean of praise to the entheogenic properties of the Amanita Muscaria mushroom.

213 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:02:49pm

re: #124 natemannq

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

Sal: No, it's just that our bullshit tolerance has been sorely taxed by all the creationist crapola shoveled around here lately poorly pretending to make scientific sense.

214 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:00pm

re: #54 natemannq

It would seem your mind is made up, Mr. Gore.

He really doesn't know you, does he?

215 hoisted  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:03pm

re: #105 Tigger2005

Not ONE piece of evidence has been brought forward to discredit it. And that's all evolution deniers need...ONE single piece of evidence. The theory of Evolution is science partly because it is falsifiable. All you have to do is produce one piece of evidence to pull it down.


First off, I'm an "old-Earth" creationist. The first piece of evidence that comes to mind for me is the problem of convergence (unrelated organisms possessing nearly identical anatomical, physiological, behavioral, and biochemical characteristics). It's much more common than would be expected when unrelated organisms "evolve" separately. It's the idea of, "if one could rewind the evolutionary tape and start over again and again, one would expect a different outcome each time." What we find, however, is something commonly entirely different. Here is a good read on this subject: [Link: www.reasons.org...]

The recently-touted e coli long-term experiment is a good example. Lenski was able to reproduce his results (the ability to metabolize citrate) only when starting with the generation one step away from this mutation. Going back any further failed to reproduce the results. I believe there is a longer discussion of this here: [Link: www.oneplace.com...]

As I said, I'm am "old-Earth/old-universe" creationist. Bad science (i.e. the universe is 6000 years old) has no place in public school. However, the issue just described, the acrimony between strict adherents to gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, etc., should be required teaching. The idea that macro-evolution is a fait accompli is absurd.

In any case, the best arguments IMO for a Creator are found in Physics/Astrophysics and I'd be happy to get into with anyone who isn't too sick of this topic already.

216 JohnnyReb  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:04pm

Wel if you want Norse Gods, this girl could surely call them up:

217 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:47pm

re: #125 natemannq

These evolutionists are rabid...

Says a creationist mouth-frother.

218 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:51pm

re: #214 ContraJihadi

No- he doesn't.

219 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:04:28pm

re: #200 snowman

Charles, I respect your great political blogging...but please leave this for other forums. This begins to look like you're running around shoring up a building of rotting timbers. I see a bunch of non-productive name calling in this thread, and a whole lot of faith-based comments from both sides.

Let's leave this one alone.

The thing is that ID being taught as science has entered the political realm now. It can end up being just as corrosive to the Great American Experiment as Radical Islam is now. Must we have a September 10th attitude to yet another growing danger?

I can't speak directly for Charles but I divine that he sees the two to be kindred spirits in what they want to achieve, the destruction of America.

220 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:04:35pm

re: #181 natemannq

re: #172 Sharmuta
How do you apply ID to the scientific method?

Did I mention Faith?

I thought I did.

I respect your Faith, but it is not my Faith.
Am I right or wrong?

221 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:05:27pm

Afternoon lizards!

Are we having fun yet?

222 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:05:57pm

re: #220 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Not only that, but how do you apply the scientific method to that.

Also- do we really want to?

223 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:06:33pm

re: #221 jcm

Yes- we're all thrilled to be considered al gore.

224 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:06:55pm

re: #221 jcm

Afternoon lizards!

Are we having fun yet?

Excuse me while I use my napkin.

225 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:07:09pm

The question is not whether it is turtles all the way down....

But who put the turtle on the post.

226 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:07:27pm

re: #135 natemannq

You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Wow, you're kidding, right?

Sal: I gather from that response that we cannot expect you to learn what scientists mean by such terms as 'theory', 'hypothesis', 'conjecture', 'empirical evidence', 'verification principle', or 'falsification' in the foreseeable future...

227 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:07:38pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

Not only that, but how do you apply the scientific method to that.

Also- do we really want to?

(I'm taking another tack on him, Sharm)

228 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:08:22pm

Tygers of Pan Tang

INSANITY,
R

229 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:08:29pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

Yes- we're all thrilled to be considered al gore.

That's going over the line.

I am not that fat.

230 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:08:59pm

re: #139 ornery elephant

It would seem that your mind is made up, Mr. Dawkins

It would seem that your mnd is made up, Mr. Robertson.

231 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:09:17pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

I'd just like to have his back yard.

232 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:09:44pm

re: #226 Salamantis

Sal: I gather from that response that we cannot expect you to learn what scientists mean by such terms as 'theory', 'hypothesis', 'conjecture', 'empirical evidence', 'verification principle', or 'falsification' in the foreseeable future...

Puhleeze! That would mean work. Why learn about a subject when one can so gloriously extol their ignorance without putting any effort in. ;)

233 Dan G.  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:09:55pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

Its interesting that the IDer's think that we are more closely associated with Al Gore when they are the ones also dabbling into pseudoscience.

234 snowman  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:10:08pm

re: #219 FurryOldGuyJeans

Destruction of America? ID proponnents? yikes, this is just too nutty.

good night. have fun. Sorry this thread has become so silly.

235 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:10:16pm

re: #231 jaunte

I'd just like to have his back yard.

Or, even a small corner of his house.

236 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:11:21pm

re: #235 reine.de.tout

Or, even a small corner of his house.

One-tenth of his monthly electric bill deposited into my bank account.

237 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:11:33pm

The Science front...

The 9th Circus makes sense.

*picking jaw up off floor*

9th Circuit: Judges shouldn't act as scientists

BOISE, Idaho (AP) - An 11-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled it's improper for federal judges to act as scientists when weighing in on disputed U.S. Forest Service timber projects.

Timber industry lobbyists and Forest Service officials called the unanimous ruling that overturned a challenge to a northern Idaho logging sale significant. The decision was significant partly because it emerged from a court often seen as favorable to environmental groups.

238 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:11:39pm

re: #231 jaunte

At his new $4mil waterfront condo - lol

239 lance  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:12:07pm

Man, what a bore these threads are...not even fun to troll anymore. Please Charles....can we move on to something else?

OK, now that that's out of my system, check this out (or oot, if you're a Canuck):

Largest mosque opens in Calgary to political fanfare

Harper shows up to this? When's the last time the leader of any Western country graced the opening of church with their presence? Yeesh.

240 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:12:33pm

re: #231 jaunte

I'd just like to have his back yard.

I'll take the house.

pBMb can have the power bill.....
;-P

241 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:12:53pm

Black Sabbath

PARANOID,
R

242 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:12:58pm

re: #237 jcm

That has to be a fabrication. The Ninth would NEVER do that!

/sarc

243 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:13:05pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

Sal: You do. Your mind is closed to the distinction between empirically supported scientific assertions and evidence-free and inherently untestable sectarian religious dogma, which is why you wanna cram religion down other peoples' kids' throats in public high school science class.

244 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:13:29pm

re: #238 MacGregor

Either way; let's see some redistribution!

245 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:14:18pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That has to be a fabrication. The Ninth would NEVER do that!

/sarc

A broken clock is right twice a day.

246 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:14:39pm

re: #233 Dan G.

Its interesting that the IDer's think that we are more closely associated with Al Gore when they are the ones also dabbling into pseudoscience.

Indeed- I think it's called "projection".

247 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:14:46pm

re: #237 jcm

The Science front...

The 9th Circus makes sense.

*picking jaw up off floor*

9th Circuit: Judges shouldn't act as scientists

Now *there's* a positively cosmic event, a great discontinuity.

248 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:15:30pm

re: #152 natemannq

That last paragraph had a tinge of elitism to it... Long on words, low on substance.

Sal: No, there's plenty of substance there, and I told you precisely where to go to avail yourself of it. Not that you ever would, of course...

249 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:15:34pm

re: #239 lance

Man, what a bore these threads are...not even fun to troll anymore. Please Charles....can we move on to something else?

OK, now that that's out of my system, check this out (or oot, if you're a Canuck):

Largest mosque opens in Calgary to political fanfare

Harper shows up to this? When's the last time the leader of any Western country graced the opening of church with their presence? Yeesh.

You don't like the ID threads don't read 'em. What about "This is Charles' blog so he gets to put up what he wants" don't you understand?

250 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:15:43pm

re: #243 Salamantis

Sal: You do. Your mind is closed to the distinction between empirically supported scientific assertions and evidence-free and inherently untestable sectarian religious dogma, which is why you wanna cram religion down other peoples' kids' throats in public high school science class.

Additionally the ID as presented by the Disco Institute is bad science, and bad faith. It also would have a huge train of unintended consequences.

251 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:16:42pm

Why are the creationists simultaneously claiming the want open discussion about evolution in the class room but they don't want it discussed here?

252 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:17:26pm

re: #155 natemannq

Will do...

A little ironic that I'm willing to explore challenges to my position but so many others on here are unwilling to do the same while calling me "ignorant"..

1) You started out on the wrong foot (see your #35). Putting people down is never a valid way to debate and it is always guaranteed to get peoples' backs up. If that's what you wanted to accomplish, well, it worked. (Read that comment out loud in front of a mirror and see how you come across.) It sort of devolved from there and you are largely responsible for that outcome.

2) If you are willing to explore challenges to your position, and are not just here to argue DI talking points, that's really great. Perhaps you could start by reading a book that Sharmuta has recommended several times. I think this is the one.

If you do have an open mind, you could also read some of the previous threads and articles posted.

Once you have read The Wedge Document, etc., think about how you would approach this topic if you were in a room full of co-workers.

3) This is a tough room. If you really want to learn, and are not just here to stir the pot, do some research and change your debating tactics, so the next time you enter the discussion, you don't start off by alienating folks.

And...

4) Perhaps, after doing a lot of research, you might still decide that you disagree with evolution and agree with ID. If that's the case, my advice would be to avoid these threads, because science would not be on your side and science is the whole point of this conversation. ID is not science, it is religion cloaked in pseudo-scientific jargon and, as such, it should not be taught in public schools. If, after all of your reading, you still feel that religion should be taught in public schools, then there really is nothing to discuss, because that practice would contravene your country's laws.

253 Racer X  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:17:39pm
Are you classified as humanoid?

Negative - I am a meat popsicle.

254 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:17:54pm

re: #155 natemannq

Will do...

A little ironic that I'm willing to explore challenges to my position but so many others on here are unwilling to do the same while calling me "ignorant"..

Try exploring this one:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

255 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:17:55pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

It's a shame gore has tainted science to the point it can cast a shadow on legitimate work.

256 Wendya  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:18:04pm

re: #7 Fried Spam

Can we have a discussion on how to best teach science in K-12? Can we teach science without presenting science as a weapon to use against faith? Can we teach science without resorting to using faith as a weapon against science?

It's a shame that the search for answers outside the supernatural has been seen throughout history as an attack on faith.

Some people will always see it that way.

257 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:18:18pm

Uriah Heep

LOOK AT YOURSELF,
R

258 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:18:29pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Why are the creationists simultaneously claiming the want open discussion about evolution in the class room but they don't want it discussed here?

Because we can see through their smoke and mirrors whereas the average American student would have no clue?

259 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:18:53pm

re: #237 jcm

The Science front...

The 9th Circus makes sense.

*picking jaw up off floor*

9th Circuit: Judges shouldn't act as scientists

But should overweight politicians act as scientists?

260 Mr Spiffy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:19:25pm

re: #3 Wyatt Earp

"All known intelligent life can be traced back to a single common ancestor . . ."

And that man's name is Rush Limbaugh. Heh.

fixed that

261 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:19:25pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Why are the creationists simultaneously claiming the want open discussion about evolution in the class room but they don't want it discussed here?


Speculation: There are two teams of ID posters working, the LetUsTalkers and the Yawners.

262 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:19:29pm

re: #259 debutaunt

only self important ones.

263 _Felix  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:20:01pm

I keep wanting to mention A.G. Cairns-Smith because he wrote a nice book about how the first DNA might have come about through a kind of evolution within clay crystals. Nobody's asked that question yet, though, and I've got to go to bed now.

264 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:20:24pm

re: #255 MacGregor

It's a shame gore has tainted science to the point it can cast a shadow on legitimate work.

The Discovery Institute sure is doing a bang-up job of making believers out to be rubes and hicks just off the turnip truck.

265 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:20:52pm

re: #259 debutaunt

But should overweight politicians act as scientists?

Algore is not overweight.
He's retaining carbon for the good of the planet.
/

266 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:21:06pm

re: #158 natemannq

Nothing like blaming others for your own anger..

Sal: It's entirely reasonable to hold others responsible for their own leaked Wedge Strategy plots to propagandize and lie in order to cynically subvert the US Constitution so they can bring about a Christian Iran in America.

267 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:21:36pm

RL Burnside

ITS BAD YOU KNOW,
R

268 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:21:38pm

re: #261 jaunte

Speculation: There are two teams of ID posters working, the LetUsTalkers and the Yawners.

And there are more registering at each open registration.

269 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:22:12pm

re: #15 VegasRick

I hope this thread evolves into a boob thread.


I love 38 DD.

How about you?

270 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:22:18pm
271 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:22:25pm

re: #155 natemannq

Will do...

A little ironic that I'm willing to explore challenges to my position but so many others on here are unwilling to do the same while calling me "ignorant"..

You do know what the word ignorant means, as opposed to stupid, right?

272 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:22:42pm

re: #249 FurryOldGuyJeans

You don't like the ID threads don't read 'em. What about "This is Charles' blog so he gets to put up what he wants" don't you understand?

They sound like a very tinny Mick Jag-head whinning "I can't get no satisfaction!" There once was a time when gratification was not considered a birthright.

Also, this isn't the first time Western Civ has been through this. I refer anyone who has the time to Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror".

273 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:23:17pm

re: #270 ploome hineni

how long before some of these sock puppets are banned?

/I count 3

Who? Where? Spill them beans . . .

274 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:23:56pm

re: #162 natemannq

Al Gore = Global Warming is real and man-made... End of Discussion.

Evolutionists = Evolution is real and how man was made.. End of Discussion.

Get it now?

Global warming - a bad scientific hypothesis being widely discredited within a few years of it being proposed.

Evolution - a solid scientific theory that has withstood the test of scientific investigation and experiment for 150 years.

Get the difference?

275 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:23:58pm

re: #270 ploome hineni

how long before some of these sock puppets are banned?

/I count 3

What is a sock puppet? I had it explained to me once before... but somethings I don't recall.

276 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:23:59pm

re: #252 Josephine

That is the book I've recommended, Josephine. It's very good, and I hope others who have looked into it will enjoy it as much as I did.

277 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:25:42pm

re: #255 MacGregor

It's a shame gore has tainted science to the point it can cast a shadow on legitimate work.

Didn't Gore invent the internet?

Look lizards you owe the convenience to posting in the forum to Al Gore.

Send him a thank you note and buy him some carbon credits for his home.

278 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:25:50pm

The Cure

BURN,
R

279 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:26:31pm

re: #15 VegasRick

I hope this thread evolves into a boob thread.

I'm in. The evolution of boobs

280 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:27:06pm

re: #279 opnion

I'm in. The evolution of boobs

Why not the creation of them instead?

281 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:27:09pm

re: #275 shanec99

What is a sock puppet? I had it explained to me once before... but somethings I don't recall.

What you put on your foot before putting shoes on.

Hippies don't know what one is.

--
A second account and nic, sometimes used to cause trouble, sometimes for fun.

This is my rifle, this is my gun....

282 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:27:41pm

re: #250 jcm

In my humble opinion, VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY bad faith. It smacks of the Roman churches in the 14th Century displaying Relics of the Saints.

Faith which has to have "things" (and ID is "a thing") in order to prove its rightness isn't faith, in my understanding.

/BITE tongue

283 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:27:44pm

re: #168 MacGregor

Hey Salamantis - Do you think it reasonable life on this planet may have arrived from a meteor then evolved? (links in comments 24,26)

Would that alter current scientific timetables and hypotheses about lightning striking primordial ooze?

Sal: it's an interesting question. There are many possibilities; clay, underwater heat vents...this investigation is ongoing and new things are being learned nearly every day about abiogenesis, although the article this thread is anchoring shows that we know a lot already.

284 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:28:12pm

re: #280 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why not the creation of them instead?

The bigger and firmer the boob the better.

Hate saggy wrinkly boobs.

38 DD are wonderful.

285 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:28:26pm

re: #279 opnion

I'm in. The evolution of boobs

Explain the evolution of this...

286 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:28:33pm

re: #207 Salamantis

You are exactly right; the theists and the atheists both are horning in on science, both trying to get some rub-off from science's high standing in current public esteem.

287 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:28:48pm

re: #169 natemannq

Yes, and gathering empirical evidence for the purpose of experimentation using reason has its place.

So does faith.

Sal: Yes, faith has its place, but that place is not in public high school science class.

288 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:29:09pm

re: #284 shanec99

The bigger and firmer the boob the better.

Hate saggy wrinkly boobs.

38 DD are wonderful.

Show us yer abs, shane.

289 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:29:28pm

re: #282 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In my humble opinion, VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY bad faith. It smacks of the Roman churches in the 14th Century displaying Relics of the Saints.

Faith which has to have "things" (and ID is "a thing") in order to prove its rightness isn't faith, in my understanding.

/BITE tongue

'zactly.

290 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:29:53pm

re: #276 Sharmuta

Thanks, Shar. I'm going to look for it the next time I've got some extra book-buying money.

291 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:30:06pm

re: #173 natemannq

There's that open mind at work..

Keep it up, you're doing great.

Sal: How can not being surprised at a fact that you yourself admit mean that I have a closed mind?

292 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:30:18pm

re: #285 jcm


Lord have mercy.

Does she have a matching set on the frot too?

293 OrdellRobbie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:31:05pm

Newbie here - I keep seeing the same fallacies repeated regarding what ID is. Intelligent Design is NOT synonymous with Creationism. The fact that Creationists fall under the umbrella of Intelligent Design does not mean that all who believe in ID are Creationists. Intelligent design merely states that Random Mutation and Natural Selection, which are the two forces that drive Darwinian evolution are not capable of creating life nor of creating species and new organs and that there is evidence of design manifest in evolution. To keep conflating Intelligent Design with Creationism is a neat rhetorical trick but it is intellectually dishonest. I believe in Evolution; that is change over time and the transition of one species into another. However, I believe that the mechanisms of random mutation and natural selection cannot account for it. There is evidence of active adaptation, for instance, people in the Andes developing greater capacity to breathe in the thin air. These folks develop structural changes that are reflected in changes in their DNA. The problem has been the fact that the reproductive cells do not change. However, mechanisms for this change being carried into reproductive cells exist including viruses. The point is, that adaptive traits being passed on to offspring could result from mechanisms other than random mutation and natural selection. ID would posit that the capacity to adapt to environmental stressors is designed into DNA. To see the shortcomings of Darwin is not necessarily to reject Evolution.

294 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:31:39pm

re: #288 debutaunt

Show us yer abs, shane.

What are abs...? havn't seen anything like that on my anatomy in about a decade.

295 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:31:40pm

What I'm seeing here is a misunderstanding of evolution. The statement "If one could rewind the evolutionary tape and start over againa nd again, one would expect a different outcome each time" is not really part of evolutionary theory, it's just a statement about evolution, and I think you are misunderstanding it.

Convergent evolution is not at all surprising to those who study evolution. Actually, it's quite expected. If something WORKS in a given environment, why would we not expect to see it over and over again in somewhat different forms...wings for example? Evolution can only work with what it has, but nevertheless it's not surprising that creatures that occupy the same niches sometimes end up sharing similar characteristics, no matter how distantly related they may be. Compare the body lines of dolphins, which evolved from land mammals, to those of a shark. Is this really surprising? How does it pose any problems for evolution?

I think your misunderstanding is that you think this statement means evolution should "come up" with entirely new ways of doing the same thing more often. I don't know your source for the statement, but I think the meaning was somewhat different. Whoever said it probably meant we wouldn't have quite the same mix of creatures we have today, and they wouldn't look quite the same (perhaps you might even have a world where dinosaurs never got wiped out or where mammals were always on top). But I think you would still see many of the same "anatomical, physiological, behavioral, and biochemical characteristics." the possibilities are vast, but hardly unlimited.


re: #215 hoisted

First off, I'm an "old-Earth" creationist. The first piece of evidence that comes to mind for me is the problem of convergence (unrelated organisms possessing nearly identical anatomical, physiological, behavioral, and biochemical characteristics). It's much more common than would be expected when unrelated organisms "evolve" separately. It's the idea of, "if one could rewind the evolutionary tape and start over again and again, one would expect a different outcome each time." What we find, however, is something commonly entirely different. Here is a good read on this subject: [Link: www.reasons.org...]

The recently-touted e coli long-term experiment is a good example. Lenski was able to reproduce his results (the ability to metabolize citrate) only when starting with the generation one step away from this mutation. Going back any further failed to reproduce the results. I believe there is a longer discussion of this here: [Link: www.oneplace.com...]

As I said, I'm am "old-Earth/old-universe" creationist. Bad science (i.e. the universe is 6000 years old) has no place in public school. However, the issue just described, the acrimony between strict adherents to gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, etc., should be required teaching. The idea that macro-evolution is a fait accompli is absurd.

In any case, the best arguments IMO for a Creator are found in Physics/Astrophysics and I'd be happy to get into with anyone who isn't too sick of this topic already.

296 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:31:55pm

re: #279 opnion

I'm in. The evolution of boobs

Now I'll jump back in!

297 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:32:14pm

re: #275 shanec99

What is a sock puppet? I had it explained to me once before... but somethings I don't recall.

Technically -- see the last 20-or-so comments on the open registration thread just prior. Look for my blue avatar down there. You'll get the idea.

298 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:32:18pm

re: #282 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And in fact, to have a thing as old as the origin of life, when God is in the here and now

299 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:32:50pm

re: #280 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why not the creation of them instead?

Either way, I'm in.

300 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:32:58pm

re: #281 jcm

WATCH YOUR MOUTH!

301 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:33:04pm

Nazareth

CRAZY,
R

302 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:33:25pm

re: #181 natemannq

Did I mention Faith?

I thought I did.

Sal: In other words, Gish and Behe said it, you believe it, and that settles it. Geez.

303 Wendya  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:33:32pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

To keep conflating Intelligent Design with Creationism is a neat rhetorical trick but it is intellectually dishonest.

It's intellectually dishonest to pretend ID wasn't packaged and delivered by the same people who were previously pimping creationism.

304 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:33:38pm

re: #296 VegasRick

Now I'll jump back in!

See my
re: #285 jcm

Explain the evolution of this...

305 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:34:05pm

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

WATCH YOUR MOUTH!

ROFLMAO!

306 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:34:43pm

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

WATCH YOUR MOUTH!

That should have been a bedtime lullaby for you!
;-P

307 WindHorse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:35:06pm

re: #304 jcm

...not completely sure, but I think it has a lot to do with Lasagna.

308 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:35:54pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

Tell me how you apply the scientific method to ID.

Sal: We may begin getting somewhere when natemannq answers this question.

309 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:18pm

re: #304 jcm

She was from a family that frequently has quadruplets and they brad the women to be able to feed all the babes at once?


Bout my best guess...

Must have been hell holding all four babies at once, especially the ones on er back.

310 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:23pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

Intelligent Design is NOT synonymous with Creationism.

Really?

311 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:26pm

re: #304 jcm

Too much doggie style.

312 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:27pm

re: #296 VegasRick

Now I'll jump back in!


Alright! Gotta start somewhere. Of all the news bunnies on cable, who has the most perky tatas & why?

313 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:55pm

re: #296 VegasRick

wolf b**bs

314 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:00pm

re: #307 WindHorse

...not completely sure, but I think it has a lot to do with Lasagna.

you mean a lot of lasagna don't you?

Or are espousing a radical new theory of evolution?
Pasta driven mutations?

315 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:18pm

re: #308 Salamantis

He's not logged in- I'm sure he's working hard at that application, however. ;)

316 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:44pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

Newbie here - I keep seeing the same fallacies repeated regarding what ID is. Intelligent Design is NOT synonymous with Creationism.

Newbie - you need to go back, read the old threads, look at the Wedge Strategy, look at the Discovery Institute,, read the Wedge Document, then come back.

317 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:44pm

re: #312 opnion

Alright! Gotta start somewhere. Of all the news bunnies on cable, who has the most perky tatas & why?

I like the weather girl on FOX. Dominica somethingerother.

318 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:50pm

re: #311 VegasRick

Too much doggie style.

Doggie style encourages them to grow like that?

Hmmm I learn something new every day.

319 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:38:41pm

this thread is beyond repair

320 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:38:49pm

re: #313 Ojoe

wolf b**bs


And the founding of Rome

321 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:38:54pm

re: #313 Ojoe

wolf b**bs

My lawyer will be contacting you shortly.

322 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:39:33pm

re: #321 wolfie

in boca al lupo

(good luck in Italian)

323 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:39:54pm

re: #321 wolfie

My lawyer will be contacting you shortly.

Was your lawyer also one of the founders of Rome?

324 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:39:59pm

re: #317 VegasRick

I like the weather girl on FOX. Dominica somethingerother.

Good call. My personal favorie is Megyn Kelly on FOX
Tasteful yet still spectacular

325 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:02pm

BBL

326 WindHorse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:03pm

re: #314 jcm

....that's Major Lasagna to you.

327 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:10pm

Loreena McKennitt

PROSPEROS SPEECH,
R

328 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:42pm

re: #319 Ojoe

this thread is beyond repair

Why repair something that aint broke?

329 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:51pm

The statements made in regard to ID are not fallacies. Science has addressed the claims of IDers in regard to the supposed "shortcomings" of evolution and discredited them. The claims of ID regarding 'evidence' of design have also been discredited. The creationist roots of ID have been well-documented. I suggest you read the Dover, PA report that Charles linked to in an earlier thread.

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

Newbie here - I keep seeing the same fallacies repeated regarding what ID is. Intelligent Design is NOT synonymous with Creationism. The fact that Creationists fall under the umbrella of Intelligent Design does not mean that all who believe in ID are Creationists. Intelligent design merely states that Random Mutation and Natural Selection, which are the two forces that drive Darwinian evolution are not capable of creating life nor of creating species and new organs and that there is evidence of design manifest in evolution. To keep conflating Intelligent Design with Creationism is a neat rhetorical trick but it is intellectually dishonest. I believe in Evolution; that is change over time and the transition of one species into another. However, I believe that the mechanisms of random mutation and natural selection cannot account for it. There is evidence of active adaptation, for instance, people in the Andes developing greater capacity to breathe in the thin air. These folks develop structural changes that are reflected in changes in their DNA. The problem has been the fact that the reproductive cells do not change. However, mechanisms for this change being carried into reproductive cells exist including viruses. The point is, that adaptive traits being passed on to offspring could result from mechanisms other than random mutation and natural selection. ID would posit that the capacity to adapt to environmental stressors is designed into DNA. To see the shortcomings of Darwin is not necessarily to reject Evolution.

330 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:03pm

re: #319 Ojoe

this thread is beyond repair

The hell you say.
Give me minute I'll have it back together.

331 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:16pm

re: #200 snowman

Charles, I respect your great political blogging...but please leave this for other forums. This begins to look like you're running around shoring up a building of rotting timbers. I see a bunch of non-productive name calling in this thread, and a whole lot of faith-based comments from both sides.

Let's leave this one alone.

Sal: Smells suspiciously like what we heard from the supporters of Vlaams Belang to me. Yeah, there's rottenness around, but it's in the Vlaams and in the Disco Institute, and I have the distinct feeling that Charles will continue to canaryblog the coal mines for such rotting idiotarian timbers.

332 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:20pm

re: #318 shanec99

Doggie style encourages them to grow like that?

Hmmm I learn something new every day.

Body gets confused as to which is front and which is back, hence evolution take over and the boobs begin to grow out of the back. She could begin to develope a second mouth as a result as well. Read it in an evolution journal oneday.
/

333 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:20pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbieJust 'cuz you say so don't make it true. Read a few more threads here on the subject and then come back and try to say the same thing. The intellectual dishonesty of the DI and what they propose is profoundly mind-numbing.

334 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:47pm

re: #29 David IV of Georgia

If Christianity is true, it has nothing to fear from scientific enquiry.

Certainly, the doctrines of repentance and forgiveness have nothing to fear from scientific inquiry. It is not even clear that the scientific method even applies to them.

335 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:42:10pm

re: #330 jcm

Find you a good plastic surgeon... he can repair a broken boob anytime.

336 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:42:15pm

re: #323 shanec99

Was your lawyer also one of the founders of Rome?

If he were, knowing my luck it would have been Remus instead of Romulus!

337 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:42:51pm

re: #46 tremblur

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview.

You shure dew tawk purty.

They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts?

What irony would that be?

He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer.

You mean unlike someone like yourself that just comments on it for chuckles?

Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

You think so?  Hmmm.

}:)     [Next!]

338 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:43:25pm

ZZ Top

BLUE JEAN BLUES,
R

339 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:44:10pm

re: #335 shanec99

Find you a good plastic surgeon... he can repair a broken boob anytime.

One of the cocktail gals at my work had one break. Had to go bigger when she had it repaired. Talk about intelligent design!

340 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:44:24pm

re: #298 Ojoe

And in fact, to have a thing as old as the origin of life, when God is in the here and now

I think I grasp what you're saying, and agree.

My God is extremely here-and-now. (Using a metaphor ...) "Amazing Grace" is immediately here-and-now. It isn't a theology. It isn't whatever happened 100 years or 10,000 millennia ago. It is right here in my face. It's the same as it was with John Newton. It's what drives me to the floor, and what what lifts me up again.

To my mind, whatever happened at the Creation would be a distraction from the here-and-now presence of God.

/rant off

341 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:44:55pm

re: #332 VegasRick

Body gets confused as to which is front and which is back, hence evolution take over and the boobs begin to grow out of the back. She could begin to develope a second mouth as a result as well. Read it in an evolution journal oneday.
/

So the mom, grand mom, and great grand mom get doing doggy style until they produced a girl with boobs on the back?
Darn and I thought it was genetic engineering.
Is it a recessive gene... or should we expect it in subsequent off spring?

342 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:46:01pm

re: #8 Boondock St. Bender

Hey i saw you on tv yesterday!(Tombstone)why in the world didn't you kill ike clanton?he guy was asking for it.

Agreed. He was asking for it. Great performance by Stephen Lang in the Clanton role.

343 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:47:09pm

re: #342 Wyatt Earp

everyone did a great job on that one,although val kilmer stole the show

344 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:47:51pm

re: #341 shanec99

So the mom, grand mom, and great grand mom get doing doggy style until they produced a girl with boobs on the back?
Darn and I thought it was genetic engineering.
Is it a recessive gene... or should we expect it in subsequent off spring?

Could happen just like THAT (snaps fingers) Spring, Summer, Winter or Fall. Who made the seasons anyway?

345 psyop  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:02pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

If you believe micro (inter-species) or macro (intra-species) evolution can happen, as apparently you do, then it still only comes down to whether or not you think the universe was created in order to progress a certain way (by an intelligence unknowable by mere mortals), or whether it has happened by chance on this planet (because life happens everywhere in the universe where conditions are right, and we are some of the lucky).

346 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:10pm

Ruh-roh.... trouble on the alt. fuels horizon.

Biofuels behind food price hikes: leaked World Bank report

LONDON (AFP) - Biofuels have caused world food prices to increase by 75 percent, according to the findings of an unpublished World Bank report published in The Guardian newspaper on Friday.

The daily said the report was finished in April but was not published to avoid embarrassing the US government, which has claimed plant-derived fuels have pushed up prices by only three percent.

Biofuels, which supporters claim are a "greener" alternative to using fossil fuel and cut greenhouse gas emissions, and rising food prices will be on the agenda when G8 leaders meet in Japan next week for their annual summit.

347 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:45pm

re: #339 VegasRick

One of the cocktail gals at my work had one break. Had to go bigger when she had it repaired. Talk about intelligent design!


Yep... that is scientific ID that I would recommend they teach in school.

348 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:53pm

re: #321 wolfie

My lawyer will be contacting you shortly.

No just a second, your posted description says you're a PhD medievalist. Does this mean you're one of those snarky, fring-left, REVISIONISTS?! YECH! STINKY!

*teasing*
(-:

349 psyop  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:59pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

Don't be scared off by the reactions to your post. Debate only works if people disagree.

350 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:50:04pm

Testament

DEMONIC REFUSAL,
R

351 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:51:15pm

re: #349 psyop

Don't be scared off by the reactions to your post. Debate only works if people disagree.

Real lizards never disagree.

Only sock puppets, Kos kids, CAIR supporters and other subversives disagree with lizards.

352 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:51:37pm

re: #340 pre-Boomer Marine brat

exactly.

And here is Dolly Parton, another argument for the existence of God, if you ask me.

I'm out of here, got to get some work done.

Dolly

353 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:52:40pm

re: #346 jcm

Didn't read the article but do you suppose $140 might have
something to do with prices rising? Just a stab in the dark.

354 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:52:41pm

More troubles for Algore....

Now, though, a new Dutch study of 17 years of satellite measurements of ice movement in western Greenland concludes that the speedup of the ice is a transient summertime phenomenon, with the overall yearly movement of the grinding glaciers not changing, and actually dropping slightly in some places, when measured over longer time spans.

Science!

355 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:52:42pm

re: #351 shanec99

Real lizards never disagree.

Only sock puppets, Kos kids, CAIR supporters and other subversives disagree with lizards.

Which one am I?

356 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:01pm

re: #349 psyop

I don't think the reactions to that post were too terrible. Although it's clear some people will be put off by the truth. Not sure if this newbie is one of those, but time will tell.

357 Freddybear  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:14pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

It would be dishonest to deny that ID is creationism. Sufficient evidence for the link can be found in the "Wedge Document" and in the transcripts of the Dover PA trial.

If you want proof that random mutations and selection can produce novel structures, you need look no further than the subject of Genetic Algorithms in computer science.

358 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:43pm

re: #351 shanec99

Real lizards never disagree


?!?! Holy Cow!

359 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:47pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

I am a Christian, and also an engineer by degree. If you know anything about engineering education, there is a tremendous amount of science that goes into that. ;>

That combined perspective gives me a somewhat unique look at this debate. I read some evolutionists that say 'I believe in evolution'. As a Christian, that sounds like faith to me. As a person fully grounded in scientific education, I don't want science classes teaching faith, whether it be ID or evolution......................................... .......

Anyone with me?

360 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:47pm

re: #344 VegasRick

Could happen just like THAT (snaps fingers) Spring, Summer, Winter or Fall. Who made the seasons anyway?

Same person who designed 5 ' 1" girls who weigh 110 pounds with 38DDs?

Now that is really intelligent design.

Gotta put the wine away.

361 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:52pm

re: #353 Mike in Georgia

Didn't read the article but do you suppose $140 might have
something to do with prices rising? Just a stab in the dark.

More focus on the diversion of the food stream into fuels. Increase competition for food sources, prices go up.

362 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:54:04pm

Pink Floyd

SORROW,
R

363 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:54:44pm

re: #347 shanec99

Yep... that is scientific ID that I would recommend they teach in school.


True story. I used to know a guy who sold breast implants to plastic surgeons.
We would be in a bar & if someone asked him what he did for a living, without missing a beat he would say, "I sell tits"
You can imagine the scepticism. He would go out to the car & bring in his display case.
Next thing you know there would be a couple od dozen on the bar. Hours of entertainment!

364 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:54:54pm

re: #215 hoisted

First off, I'm an "old-Earth" creationist. The first piece of evidence that comes to mind for me is the problem of convergence (unrelated organisms possessing nearly identical anatomical, physiological, behavioral, and biochemical characteristics). It's much more common than would be expected when unrelated organisms "evolve" separately. It's the idea of, "if one could rewind the evolutionary tape and start over again and again, one would expect a different outcome each time." What we find, however, is something commonly entirely different. Here is a good read on this subject: [Link: www.reasons.org...]

Sal: Actually, the fact that several different species can independently evolve similar mechanisms that possess survival value within their environments, such as the eyes of eagles, houseflies, and octopi, is an indication of just how robust evolutionary pressures and species adaptations in response to them can be.

The recently-touted e coli long-term experiment is a good example. Lenski was able to reproduce his results (the ability to metabolize citrate) only when starting with the generation one step away from this mutation. Going back any further failed to reproduce the results. I believe there is a longer discussion of this here: [Link: www.oneplace.com...]

Sal: What this proves is not only that we now have a repeatable-at-will-under-controlled-laboratory-con ditions example of macroevolution (since no other e. coli can metabolize citric acid), but also that it had to involve the aggregate synergy of multiple mutations.

As I said, I'm am "old-Earth/old-universe" creationist. Bad science (i.e. the universe is 6000 years old) has no place in public school. However, the issue just described, the acrimony between strict adherents to gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, etc., should be required teaching. The idea that macro-evolution is a fait accompli is absurd.

Sal: One proof that macroevolution is a fait accompli sits in Lenski's laboratory; another resides in all of our genes; the massive numbers of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences inhabiting identical positions in the genomes of genetically related yet distinct species.

In any case, the best arguments IMO for a Creator are found in Physics/Astrophysics and I'd be happy to get into with anyone who isn't too sick of this topic already.

Sal: The Anthropic Principle and the Observation Selection Effect tend to defenestrate the cosmically based contentions.

365 jorline  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:55:23pm

re: #285 jcm

Explain the evolution of this...

JMC, don't be silly...those are acorns she's storing for the winter.

366 JohnnyReb  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:56:00pm

re: #351 shanec99

Real lizards never disagree.

Only sock puppets, Kos kids, CAIR supporters and other subversives disagree with lizards.


Wow, I didn't realize that I had to agree with everything said on here to be not a Kos kid or a sock puppet......Color me suprised.

And no, I don't agree with everything said on here. Sorry but you can't put me in a tiny little box.

367 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:56:13pm

re: #355 VegasRick

Which one am I?

Do you believe that a woman with firm, perky, 38DDs is sexy?

If you say yes, then I will say great minds think alike.

368 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:56:14pm

re: #361 jcm

$5 a gallon diesel will run it up quicker. It has to be
delivered.

369 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:56:59pm

re: #367 shanec99

Do you believe that a woman with firm, perky, 38DDs is sexy?

If you say yes, then I will say great minds think alike.

Yea baby!

370 Roentgen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:57:04pm

re: #330 jcm

That was hilarious! Some of the youtube links around here are just a play on the words of song lyrics vis-a-vis somebody's post. You are on whole new level. We are blessed to have you and Rawmuse--both with brilliant senses of humor, better than that in most paid publications, and worth hanging around for on any post.

371 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:58:17pm

re: #359 Naso Tang

I believe in Ohm's Law. Is that faith?

372 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:58:43pm

re: #366 JohnnyReb

If you dont agree with me you are a subversive.

ps I have had my 4th glass of wine in the last hiour... forgive me.

373 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:58:52pm

re: #365 jorline

JMC, don't be silly...those are acorns she's storing for the winter.

Maybe Huckabee will try to put her in his popcorn popper.

374 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:58:57pm

re: #354 jcm

I was talking with a broker friend who said a lot of these green companies, especially solar, have lost 50% of their stock value.

Carbon credits - a false economy.

375 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:59:19pm

re: #369 VegasRick

Yea baby!

See, you are a lizard. You did not disagree.

376 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:59:22pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

....................................
I am a Christian, and also an engineer by degree. If you know anything about engineering education, there is a tremendous amount of science that goes into that. ;>

That combined perspective gives me a somewhat unique look at this debate. I read some evolutionists that say 'I believe in evolution'. As a Christian, that sounds like faith to me. As a person fully grounded in scientific education, I don't want science classes teaching faith, whether it be ID or evolution.

......................................
Anyone with me?

Ooopsy. Sorry about that finger spasm and earlier post.

I just wanted to say that I too am an engineer by degree, and more after that, and you have limited your knowledge to bridges or power lines. When your entire argument is based on the statement that evolution is faith, then you fail the engineering test for rationality.

377 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:59:23pm

re: #371 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I believe in Ohm's Law. Is that faith?


How about Murhys Law.
Or Scwartz Law, 'Murphy was an optimist."

378 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:59:40pm

re: #348 pre-Boomer Marine brat

LOL !

379 jorline  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:00:38pm

re: #288 debutaunt

Show us yer abs, shane.

My abs have been absent for some time now.

380 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:01:26pm

re: #371 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I believe in Ohm's Law. Is that faith?

About as much as I expect it to be daylight when I, hopefully, wake up tomorrow morning.

381 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:01:38pm

re: #371 pre-Boomer Marine brat

got any more shocking relations?

382 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:01:39pm

re: #379 jorline

My abs have been absent for some time now.

Not a chance in hell of turning this into an ab thread.

383 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:02:34pm

re: #376 Naso Tang

In that case, re-direct my #371.

384 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:02:43pm

re: #382 debutaunt

Yeah- not often does a thread turn into an objectifying of men.

385 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:02:57pm

re: #374 MacGregor

I was talking with a broker friend who said a lot of these green companies, especially solar, have lost 50% of their stock value.

Carbon credits - a false economy.

Carbon credits, feel good green fuels which are net energy looses.

My company has a big stake in solar cells, that division thinks it will be able to sell panels at grid equity for the sun belt in a couple years. Meaning the cost of setting up a solar system will cost the same per KW as buying off the grid. That's a huge milestone.

All private, no subsidies.

386 Metal Man  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:02pm

re: #368 Mike in Georgia

$5 a gallon diesel will run it up quicker. It has to be
delivered.

The price of commodities are driven more by demand than the cost to produce or deliver them. Talk to any farmer who has had to sell a crop at less than it cost to produce it.

387 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:03pm

re: #377 opnion

How about Murhys Law.
Or Scwartz Law, 'Murphy was an optimist."

I am shocked that you believe in Ohms law. Pure fallacy.

I will resist such subversive ideas with all my strength even if I am made to feel like a fish swimming against the current.

388 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:14pm

re: #382 debutaunt

Not a chance in hell of turning this into an ab thread.

Muscle on in, deb!

389 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:46pm

re: #379 jorline

My abs have been absent for some time now.

I have furniture movers disease.
My chest dropped into my drawers.

390 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:48pm

re: #371 pre-Boomer Marine brat


An example of Darwin?

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com...]

MWAH!

391 mama winger  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:04:06pm

re: #219 FurryOldGuyJeans

The thing is that ID being taught as science has entered the political realm now. It can end up being just as corrosive to the Great American Experiment as Radical Islam is now. Must we have a September 10th attitude to yet another growing danger?

I can't speak directly for Charles but I divine that he sees the two to be kindred spirits in what they want to achieve, the destruction of America.

Yes, all us Lutherans have our potluck casseroles at the ready, looking for our opportunity to destroy America . Death by Hot Dish Ackbar! .

392 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:04:17pm

re: #380 Naso Tang

About as much as I expect it to be daylight when I, hopefully, wake up tomorrow morning.

Sorry, apparently should have been directed at #4 Fried Spam.

393 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:04:53pm

re: #382 debutaunt

Not a chance in hell of turning this into an ab thread.


Nope this is a boob thread.

Wanna flash me your boobs?

ps conscience to shane... lay off the wine before logging on to LGF.

394 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:05:29pm

re: #390 goddessoftheclassroom

An example of Darwin?

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com.. .]

MWAH!

My favorite cat picture.
Great Expectations.

395 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:05:58pm

re: #393 shanec99

Nope this is a boob thread.

Wanna flash me your boobs?

ps conscience to shane... lay off the wine before logging on to LGF.


Sir, may I pour you another glass?

396 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:06:05pm

Eh. I agree that most of what he says is almost certainly true, but I'm afraid he overstates the formal strength of what is known, and while the science is nicely presented, I don't think he really advances anyone's arguments. Just as a nit:

Water is one of the most common compounds in the universe.

Well, no it's not, H and He make up like 99% of matter IIRC, and that's not even counting dark matter and dark energy! What I suppose he means is that it seems ubiquitous, spectrographs find it in every region of space where we can look, and we are much more interested in those places it occurs than in vast areas (like inside of stars!) where it does not!

And, can it (any OOL theory) even *be* proven? Not easily. Even if you can create simple cells in a test tube from nothing but a small box of simple ingredients, it may be impossible to distinguish the case where the origin of life happened ten billion years ago 50,000 light years away and we came from some kind of panspermia, from the case that there are millions of Earth-like worlds in the Milky Way galaxy alone, and that life spontaneously evolves on most of them, given a quiet billion years or so.

[more ranting by me deleted]

397 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:06:13pm

WASP -Donnington '92

CHAINSAW CHARLIE,
R

398 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:06:39pm

re: #385 jcm

That's good to hear! Hope it goes well for you.

399 pre-Boomer's SockPuppy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:06:52pm

re: #390 goddessoftheclassroom

arf arf arf
arf
arf arf arf arf arf
arf arf arf
arf

400 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:07:11pm

re: #384 Sharmuta

Yeah- not often does a thread turn into an objectifying of men.

Well do you want me to discuss schlongs?

Would not be very interesting.

401 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:07:28pm

re: #395 opnion

Sir, may I pour you another glass?

heh heh

402 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:07:32pm

re: #331 Salamantis

Sal: Smells suspiciously like what we heard from the supporters of Vlaams Belang to me. Yeah, there's rottenness around, but it's in the Vlaams and in the Disco Institute, and I have the distinct feeling that Charles will continue to canaryblog the coal mines for such rotting idiotarian timbers.

Every thread has it's versions. Don't upset the applecart. Don't contradict the contrarians. Don't appear to have disagreement. Support the Christian cause against Islam. Nothing else matters.

403 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:08:19pm

Mere breast measurement is hardly an indicator of sexiness.

RANDOM
MEDIA
PLAYER,
R

404 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:08:40pm

re: #400 shanec99

No- I want to discuss the topic.

405 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:09:37pm

re: #394 jcm

My favorite cat picture.
Great Expectations.

What Chutzpah!

406 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:10:00pm

Was there someone else out there?

407 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:10:16pm

re: #392 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Sorry, apparently should have been directed at #4 Fried Spam.

My mistake. I hit the wrong key instead of typing my response.

408 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:10:21pm

re: #403 Render

Mere breast measurement is hardly an indicator of sexiness.

RANDOM
MEDIA
PLAYER,
R

Says who...?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Although I must say some men find pirates attractive (pirates are wimmens with buried chests).

409 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:11:19pm

re: #404 Sharmuta

No- I want to discuss the topic.

Then discuss away my dear,
I will not do anything to hinder your efforts.

410 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:11:50pm