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More Science Labs: The OOL Question

Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 1:43:12 pm PDT

Here’s an interesting back-and-forth volley on the subject of intelligent design and science; first an article by Gordy Slack on What neo-creationists get right.

Then, evolution advocate Nick Matzke (who was featured in that video I posted yesterday on the Dover School District controversy) replies to Slack’s article in an essay on what scientists really know about one of the most fundamental questions, the Origin of Life (OOL): What critics of critics of neo-creationists get wrong: a reply to Gordy Slack - The Panda’s Thumb.

Read the whole thing, but here’s one section that deals with an issue that’s been raised in LGF comments over and over:

OOL Discovery #1. All known life can be traced back to a single common ancestor which, compared to what most people think of as present-day life (i.e. plants and animals), was relatively simple – microscopic, single-celled, perhaps as complex as an average bacterium or perhaps somewhat less so.

Because a lot of creationists, and sometimes others, are a bit thick in the head on correctly understanding this point, let me bash away at some common misconceptions. The phrase “single common ancestor” does not, and never has for people who were paying close attention, referred to a literal single individual organism. Think about a phylogenetic tree with humans and chimps on the branches. When you trace the tree back to the “common ancestor” of chimps and humans, does that node represent a literal single individual? No, of course not! Everyone (well, everyone paying attention) realizes that that ancestral node represents a species or population sharing genes in a gene pool. Ditto for all of the other ancestral nodes in a phylogenetic tree, including the Last Common Ancestor of known life.

With this understood, the debate initiated by Ford Doolittle and others over the precise nature of the Last Common Ancestor – they argue that it was a population of unicells that were rampantly trading genes – can be put in the correct context. It’s basically a debate about how wide or narrow the bottleneck the Last Common Ancestor represents, and whether (for example) modern life might contain some genes derived by lateral transfer from pre-LCA lineages that are now extinct. These debates are fascinating and highly technical, but they don’t undermine at all Point #1. Somewhat ironically and counterintuitively, those who say that there was rampant lateral transfer – this is supposed to be the “radical” position that “uproots the Tree of Life” when its proponents get their blood up – are actually pushing the LCA to something more and more like a traditional gene pool, i.e. species, i.e. what every other node in a phylogenetic tree represents.

Any way you slice it, all known life (with minor derived exceptions, and excepting viruses) shares a suite of protein and RNA genes, a DNA-RNA-protein system and a mostly standard genetic code (again with minor derived exceptions), etc. Even if various other bits of modern life came from other ancestral lineages (unlikely for most features in my opinion but there may be some exceptions), this shared system indicates that all known life, i.e. all the stuff that’s not extinct, descends from a pretty good bottleneck where these features were fixed in the “population.” And this reconstructed ancestor is maybe as complex as a typical bacterium and probably less so. It could be that in the last 50 years science discovered that known life had for-real multiple origins, or that at the root of the tree was a complex multicellular organism with 30,000 genes and huge, elaborately regulated, genome, but instead we get a unicell with a relatively small & simple genome. Various caveats, important to scientists but irrelevant to beginner-level education and dealing with creationists (e.g., somewhat more genes may have been passed through the bottleneck in some but not all organisms if the LCA was more of a gene-trading community) should not be allowed to distract from the Main Point: science has confirmed the hypothesis, going back at least to Darwin, that the ancestor of modern life was much less complex than life today.

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1 soccerdad  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:45:11pm

I don't understand Charles' obsession with this topic. give it a rest.

2 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:45:24pm

Mich-Again also pointed out earlier that LGF is discussed in the comments.

3 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:47:56pm

"All known life can be traced back to a single common ancestor . . ."

And that man's name is Rush Limbaugh. Heh.

4 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:48:19pm

I posted much of this in an earlier ID thread, but by the time I was able to do so, it was fairly far down on the chain. I bring it up again hoping to change the tone of some of these threads. I've read a lot of them, and they tend to devolve into name calling among various folks. Perhaps naively, I'm hoping that there is a way out of this type of thing without resorting to folks attacking each other.

I am a Christian, and also an engineer by degree. If you know anything about engineering education, there is a tremendous amount of science that goes into that. ;>

That combined perspective gives me a somewhat unique look at this debate. I read some evolutionists that say 'I believe in evolution'. As a Christian, that sounds like faith to me. As a person fully grounded in scientific education, I don't want science classes teaching faith, whether it be ID or evolution.

Specifically, here's where I see the flaw in Darwinistic evolution. A biologist can indeed test his theories in a lab, or in nature, to the extent that species adapt and change to their environment. In order to test Darwin's theories about speciation, i.e., a lower form evolving into a higher form, one has always had to switch from biologists to paleontologists. That can't be duplicated in a lab, and it's that leap of faith that troubles so many people, and so few can apparently articulate. Further, people pin their faith on Darwin to the extent that they say something to the extent of 'biology is based on evolution'.

I think that there is a way out of the acrimonious debate, which is largely why I'm posting. From what I understand of biology, every living thing that we know about is based on deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA. Therefore, I would contend that biology is based on DNA.

If that is the case, then why shouldn't K-12 biology education be based on DNA? Let's start orienting the curriculum towards something that is much more testable, has many more direct scientific applications, and is much less controversial?

Anyone with me?

5 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:49:21pm

re: #1 soccerdad

Maybe it's troll bait.

6 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:49:22pm

This was a very good read, and I agreed with his conclusions. Instead of making an easy comment that OOL is outside of evolution, the case should be made for what we do know of OOL.

7 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:49:47pm

re: #4 Fried Spam


By posting, I'm hoping that we can narrow this discussion somewhat. The real question is not necessarily who is right and who is wrong, but rather what are we going to teach children in public schools in Kindergarten through 12th grade? The unfortunate thing is that evolution is perceived as being frequently used as a weapon to squash any personal Christian belief. A review of many of the threads on this website about ID will show that many folks try to do just that. The ID laws that we see are, in my opinion, a reaction to that.

I really do want to have science taught in science class. Can we have a discussion on how to best teach science in K-12? Can we teach science without presenting science as a weapon to use against faith? Can we teach science without resorting to using faith as a weapon against science?

8 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:49:52pm

re: #3 Wyatt Earp

Hey i saw you on tv yesterday!(tombstone)why in the world didn't you kill ike clanton?he guy was asking for it.

9 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:50:01pm

Maybe we'll get some huffpo points of view today.

10 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:51:06pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

See discovery #3 in the article Charles linked too.

11 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:51:41pm

re: #7 Fried Spam

exellent point.too often we degenerate into who's right.as opposed to the real debate.

12 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:51:43pm

Like I said on the last ID thread, I don't question the
intelligence of whoever designed me. I question their
sanity.

13 Mardukhai  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:51:52pm

Soccerdad --

I admit that anti-Creationism a bit OT, but Charles sees the enemy as anyone who tries to foist bad ideas on society.

I happen to agree. And please note that the great Gregor Mendel, father of genetics -- who discovered the first step in our understanding of the mechanics of evolution -- was a Roman Catholic priest and an abbot to boot!

But I would like to see more anti-Jihad stuff.

14 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:52:40pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

And discovery #4 too.

15 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:54:18pm

I hope this thread evolves into a boob thread.

16 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:55:12pm

re: #7 Fried Spam

what are we going to teach children in public schools in Kindergarten through 12th grade?

I wish there was more focus on this too. Arguing about the so-called inherently atheistic nature of evolution plays into the hands of DI hacks.

17 Salem  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:55:25pm

This is our OOL. Notice there's no P in it. Try to keep it that way.

18 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:55:30pm

re: #4 Fried Spam


From the linked article:

I would not want someone who believed the cornerstone of modern biology was hogwash filling one of them.

This gets back to an original precept of mine. Isn't DNA the cornerstone of biology? As such, shouldn't it be the basis of biology education?

19 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:56:04pm

re: #15 VegasRick
Now days boobs can evolve into some very intelligent designs.

20 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:56:24pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

Let's start orienting the curriculum towards something that is much more testable, has many more direct scientific applications, and is much less controversial?

Anyone with me?

My high school biology teacher did something to that effect.

21 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 1:59:29pm

re: #18 Fried Spam

This gets back to an original precept of mine. Isn't DNA the cornerstone of biology? As such, shouldn't it be the basis of biology education?

I don't think focusing on DNA would or should mean we back away from evolution. Isn't evolution an important theory explaining much of what students and scientists would be working with in working and learning about DNA?

22 gopninja  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:00:27pm

fine by me, as long as that single ancestor is 10,000 years old.

23 ladycatnip  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:01:16pm

#13 Mardukhai

But I would like to see more anti-Jihad stuff.

Agree. The slow creep of islam in education is far more toxic and dangerous than ID. The latest is about two boys in the UK being given detention because they refused to pray to allah.

I happen to believe God is the Creator of all things, but have no interest in inserting my faith into the high school science curriculum. Even within the community of faith there is so much disagreement on whether it's evolution, Big Bang, Gap Theory, Old Earth, New Earth, or ID. Making room for anything faith-based simply opens the doors to islam.

24 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:01:35pm
25 alegrias  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:02:21pm

As long as jihadists, al Qaedans and moslems in general call the rest of us Westerners and infidels "sons of monkeys and apes", it's a badge of honor.

Until we win decisively over these murderous troglodytes who are already here, teaching their 7th century ideas in our countries with leftists' permission, I'm not engaging in this debate.

26 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:02:48pm
27 GOPninja  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:02:48pm

re: #24 MacGregor

Life is Sweet: Sugar-Packing Asteroids May Have Seeded Life on Earth

hahaha... rock candy

28 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:03:44pm

Semi OT: Who the hell is Timothy Sandefur?

29 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:03:53pm

If Christianity is true, it has nothing to fear from scientific enquiry.

The whole ID thing seems to be just smoke and mirrors. The real goal is to get a particular belief taught in school. But to keep it all looking scientific, that belief, that faith, is so watered down to no longer be viable. Why not just say you want prayer in school and avoid all the melodrama?

30 akak  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:03:58pm

[Link: hotair.com...]

detention-for-refusing-to-pray-to-allah-in-religio us-ed-class?

/I'd go postal....

31 AuldTrafford  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:05:45pm

re: #1 soccerdad

I don't understand Charles' obsession with this topic. give it a rest.

Well, let's see whose name is on this blog. Maybe disgruntled readers should move on to another thread ... ?

32 Lynn B.  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:06:59pm

Oh, damn! I haven't even finished watching NOVA yet and now I've got more interesting stuff to read?

Not happening anytime soon, though.

33 FrogMarch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:07:04pm
Which leads me to a final concession to my ID foes: When they say that some proponents of evolution are blind followers, they're right. A few years ago I covered a conference of the American Atheists in Las Vegas. I met dozens of people there who were dead sure that evolutionary theory was correct though they didn't know a thing about adaptive radiation, genetic drift, or even plain old natural selection. They came to their Darwinism via a commitment to naturalism and atheism not through the study of science. They're still correct when they say evolution happens. But I'm afraid they're wrong to call themselves skeptics unencumbered by ideology. Many of them are best described as zealots. Ideological zeal isn't incompatible with good science; its coincidence with a theory proves nothing about that theory's explanatory power.

Should IDers be allowed to pursue their still very eccentric and outlying theory? Absolutely. There must be room, even respect, for eccentricity in science; it can lead to great discoveries. Alchemy led to chemistry. Astrology to astronomy. Much more often, of course, it leads nowhere. Looking for evidence of design in the natural world isn't itself unscientific (though, as I argue in my book, insisting that any designer must be a supernatural being is!) and if it were found, that would be big and fascinating news. But if I had a biology department with only seven faculty spots in it, I would not want someone who believed the cornerstone of modern biology was hogwash filling one of them. And I certainly don't want an improbable outlying hypothesis taught to my own teenage son as an alternative to one of the most powerful explanatory theories to illuminate the human mind.

yep.

34 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:08:16pm

re: #27 GOPninja

Gaia get's her sugar on!

35 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:08:20pm

When the evolutionists can PROVE their case with something other than theories, it can be treated as indisputable..

Problem with the evolutionists is they are not far removed from the Al Gores of the world in that they assert their THEORIES as fact and want to end debate.. The truth is they cannot explain the origin of man with facts, only plausible conjecture..

You cannot end debate when you cannot prove your case. Attempting to do so is the essence of closed-mindedness....

www.creationontheweb.com

36 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:08:49pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Semi OT: Who the hell is Timothy Sandefur?

[Link: pandasthumb.org...]

37 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:09:06pm

re: #32 Lynn B.

Oh, damn! I haven't even finished watching NOVA yet and now I've got more interesting stuff to read?

Not happening anytime soon, though.

Are you referring to the lead character opposite Charlton Heston in planet of the apes?

38 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:09:33pm

re: #35 natemannq

Problem with the evolutionists is they are not far removed from the Al Gores of the world in that they assert their THEORIES as fact and want to end debate..


Dude, we've been through that a million times already. Give it up.

39 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:10:27pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Dude, we've been through that a million times already. Give it up.

Dude, I didn't start the thread.

40 soccerdad  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:10:38pm

re: #13 Mardukhai

Thanks. Don't get me wrong...it's his blog and I'm a guest, so he can post and discuss any-damn-thing-he-wants. I kind of forgot that for a second, but that said, I'm just not into it.

41 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:11:01pm

re: #35 natemannq

You....didn't read the link, did you?

42 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:11:24pm

re: #35 natemannq

AAAAIIIIIIIIIIYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

43 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:12:06pm

re: #36 Charles

Ah, thanks. He has some interesting ideas: Darwin And Conservatism. Those Panda's thumb guys sure are verbose.

44 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:12:55pm

re: #38 Killgore Trout

Maybe life on Earth has even evolved twice, Killgore. Once before the last big asteroid hit (lots of yelling in arabic!) - and once after.

45 Roentgen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:13:47pm

re: #42 MandyManners
Here we go.

46 tremblur  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:13:59pm

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

47 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:15:04pm

re: #41 Sharmuta

yes, what's your point?

48 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:16:47pm

re: #42 MandyManners

Mandy, ... Boondock St. Bender and I want an update on the Great Frog Hunt.

49 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:17:38pm

re: #47 natemannq

My point? You have a lot of reading to do- that's my point. Here- I'll help you.

50 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:17:41pm

re: #46 tremblur

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

Please point out where I've used such words, or where I've crossed the line into "zealotry."

Hint: you can't. The thin-skinned attitudes of ardent creationists never cease to amaze me.

51 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:18:05pm

re: #46 tremblur

WTF don't you understand that this is CHARLES' blog?

52 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:18:57pm

re: #48 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Mandy, ... Boondock St. Bender and I want an update on the Great Frog Hunt.

We cannot find him.

Now, enough OT, please.

53 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:20:09pm

re: #21 Sharmuta

I don't think focusing on DNA would or should mean we back away from evolution. Isn't evolution an important theory explaining much of what students and scientists would be working with in working and learning about DNA?

It depends on exactly what one means by evolution. Let's consider the target audience for some of this public debate. So many people get confused about what exactly is meant by terms, such as evolution, species, even what science actually means.

Sometimes the scientific community uses definitions that are both precise and imprecise at the same time. For example, the term 'species' is actually difficult for biologists to define well. Every biology scientist defines 'species' precisely, but they don't necessarily have a consensus view on the definition. This doesn't lead to good discussions or good public policies.

Even more difficult is the word evolution. Most scientists, and frankly most people, accept the definition that evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. This is testable, has been tested, is used in modern medicine, and is an accepted theory. The problem, though, is that this definition is then extended to be used to say explicitly that this mechanism is known to be how humans are descended from primordial ooze, and it is again used as a weapon against faith.

54 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:20:13pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

It would seem your mind is made up, Mr. Gore.

55 soccerdad  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:20:21pm

re: #31 AuldTrafford

Well, let's see whose name is on this blog. Maybe disgruntled readers should move on to another thread ... ?


Generally when one has something constructive, positive and or enlightening to say, one should most definitely engage the QWERTY mechanism. (see entry #13 above).

When one is only going to spout a tautology or engage in 'defending' our Lizard overlord (like HE needs defending), it would be much better to forego the urge to engage said QWERTY mechanism.

But thanks.

56 FreeIowa  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:20:26pm

Speaking of Intelligent Design: Blogger admits Hawaii birth certificate forgery, subverting Obama claims
Sorry if this is old news.

57 Idle Drifter  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:21:20pm

re: #51 MandyManners

I believe tremblur is stepping across the line from debate to baseless accusations.

58 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:21:42pm

re: #35 natemannq

I wonder exactly what you would accept as proof since what I have read of what you have posted in these threads you seem to be someone ignorant of the basic principles and definitions underpinning science; someone without knowledge of the subject being discussed.

Please feel free to disabuse and correct me if I have mischaracterized you and your positions; but don't expect me to roll over and play dead just because you say so, and refuse to play by the established rules and guidelines.

59 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:22:03pm

re: #56 FreeIowa

Speaking of Intelligent Design: Blogger admits Hawaii birth certificate forgery, subverting Obama claims
Sorry if this is old news.

He did NOT admit to forging the Obama document. This story is a huge nothing. The document is real, and I suspect the whole thing is a clumsy trap that some bloggers are falling for.

60 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:22:37pm

re: #32 Lynn B.

Oh, damn! I haven't even finished watching NOVA yet

/synopsis: lawyers rock and get the job done

61 Idle Drifter  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:23:11pm

re: #57 Idle Drifter

I take that back, it's natamannq.

62 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:23:44pm

re: #53 Fried Spam

Well- I think your point goes to show the woeful state of science education in this country. How do we fix this? And, I don't think the solution is as simple as teaching DNA over evolution when both are needed for a good understanding of biology.

63 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:25:59pm

re: #61 Idle Drifter

What's ironic is he's displaying the very close-mindedness he disparaged in his first comment.

64 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:26:29pm

re: #46 tremblur

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

And for umpteenth time:

Science doesn't require faith, it demands knowledge.

65 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:26:46pm

re: #58 FurryOldGuyJeans

I wonder exactly what you would accept as proof since what I have read of what you have posted in these threads you seem to be someone ignorant of the basic principles and definitions underpinning science; someone without knowledge of the subject being discussed.

Please feel free to disabuse and correct me if I have mischaracterized you and your positions; but don't expect me to roll over and play dead just because you say so, and refuse to play by the established rules and guidelines.

You sound like a relative of Allegory as well... Because someone disagrees, they are stupid and unwilling to look at the facts..

Interesting. My guess is that you're critical of Al Gore and the Global Warmers while engaging in the same tactics yourself.. There's a name for that.

www.creationontheweb.com

Can you read that?

66 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:27:57pm

Wow, They're out in force this afternoon.

67 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:28:23pm

re: #46 tremblur

There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

I have indeed seen that from a great many posters on these threads, particularly as the comment posts get very numerous.


Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

I'll have to stick up for Charles at this point. He has not been doing what you have said. Others have, but not him. As I read it, he is strongly against ID in science class in public schools. I am not in favor of it either. However, to some very small extent I find myself sympathetic to teaching ID in K-12 simply as a reaction to the zealotry exhibited by many strident evolutionists that want to squash any personal belief in God.

68 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:28:23pm

I disagree with those who think this is not such an important issue. This question goes to the very heart of the success of modern Western civilization. A shift in our way of thinking about science and religion led to the development of the technology that let us subdue the Jihad where much of the rest of the world succumbed.

The problem with the kind of thinking advocated by ID proponents and the Discovery Institute is not just that it is dishonest, which is bad enough, but that it completely erases the dividing line between faith and science. It tells children that reality is whatever they want it to be. This kind of thinking feeds on itself. It becomes hard for people to find agreement or persuade others through rational argument & debate because one person's "reality" is considered just as good as another's, and there is no longer a universally accepted tool for winnowing the good and correct ideas from the bad ones.

Of course, humankind did manage to do this before the rules of science were codified, but it was a very slow and clumsy process. Science refined the process, and European society's acceptance of the scientific enterprise catapulted their civilization above all others in the world and led to the rebirth of democracy.

69 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:28:48pm

re: #66 Killgore Trout

Wow, They're out in force this afternoon.

/irony

70 Idle Drifter  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:29:30pm

re: #63 Sharmuta

Reminds me of many examples from many different groups of people. The debate devolves into poo flinging and we a have a full blown flame war.

71 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:29:31pm

re: #65 natemannq

You sound like a relative of Allegory as well... Because someone disagrees, they are stupid and unwilling to look at the facts..

Interesting. My guess is that you're critical of Al Gore and the Global Warmers while engaging in the same tactics yourself.. There's a name for that.

www.creationontheweb.com

Can you read that?

Are you aware that Creation Ministries International has collaborated with radical Islamic Turkish creationist Harun Yahya? Do you care? Does that sound like a good idea to you?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: www.evolutiondeceit.com...]

72 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:30:09pm

re: #57 Idle Drifter

I believe tremblur is stepping across the line from debate to baseless accusations.

Or, just being an asshole.

73 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:31:23pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

I posted much of this in an earlier ID thread, but by the time I was able to do so, it was fairly far down on the chain. I bring it up again hoping to change the tone of some of these threads. I've read a lot of them, and they tend to devolve into name calling among various folks. Perhaps naively, I'm hoping that there is a way out of this type of thing without resorting to folks attacking each other.

I am a Christian, and also an engineer by degree. If you know anything about engineering education, there is a tremendous amount of science that goes into that. ;>

That combined perspective gives me a somewhat unique look at this debate. I read some evolutionists that say 'I believe in evolution'. As a Christian, that sounds like faith to me. As a person fully grounded in scientific education, I don't want science classes teaching faith, whether it be ID or evolution.

Sal: It is not necessary to believe in evolutionary theory, for there is a vast mass of evidence supporting it, so people can in fact know that it is valid and sound science to a statistically stratospheric degree of certainty. ID, on the other hand, has not a single shred of empirical scientific evidence supporting it, hence, it cannot be known, and must be either believed in or not, like any other religious assertion.

Specifically, here's where I see the flaw in Darwinistic evolution. A biologist can indeed test his theories in a lab, or in nature, to the extent that species adapt and change to their environment. In order to test Darwin's theories about speciation, i.e., a lower form evolving into a higher form, one has always had to switch from biologists to paleontologists. That can't be duplicated in a lab, and it's that leap of faith that troubles so many people, and so few can apparently articulate. Further, people pin their faith on Darwin to the extent that they say something to the extent of 'biology is based on evolution'.

Sal: Actually, all we have to do is look at the many thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences that are found in identical locations in the genomes of related living species, and acknowledge that the chances of them being there in the absence of common ancestors are, statistically speaking, exponentially less likely than that someone can buy a single ticket in every sweepstakes, horserace and lottery on the planet, and win them all, while simultaneously rolling boxcars 1200 times in a row at a Las vegas craps table.

I think that there is a way out of the acrimonious debate, which is largely why I'm posting. From what I understand of biology, every living thing that we know about is based on deoxyribonucleic acid, or DNA. Therefore, I would contend that biology is based on DNA.

If that is the case, then why shouldn't K-12 biology education be based on DNA? Let's start orienting the curriculum towards something that is much more testable, has many more direct scientific applications, and is much less controversial?

Anyone with me?

Sal: As I pointed out above, sticking with DNA ends up supporting evolutionary theory to such an asymptotically-approaching-absolute-proof degree that the mathematical space between it's likelihood and lead-pipe cinch apodictic certainty could not accommodate a single lepton.

74 FreeIowa  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:32:13pm

re: #59 Charles

Thanks. Good point.

75 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:32:55pm

re: #71 Charles

Are you aware that Creation Ministries International has collaborated with radical Islamic Turkish creationist Harun Yahya? Do you care? Does that sound like a good idea to you?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: www.evolutiondeceit.com...]

No, I wasn't aware but I know a couple of people at Creation Ministries and you can guarantee I will call them on it..

76 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:33:15pm

re: #65 natemannq

the bottom line is id is not science and does not belong in a science classroom.show me one executeable experiment that id has.

77 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:33:54pm

re: #7 Fried Spam

Sal: I am fine with teaching science, including evolutionary theory, in high school science class, and excluding both religious assertions and religious denials from it, since neither of them is science.

78 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:34:13pm

re: #68 Tigger2005

It [ID] tells children that reality is whatever they want it to be.

Yet some religionists insist that's godless materialists who are a bunch of moral relativists.

79 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:34:30pm

re: #39 natemannq

Dude, I didn't start the thread.

No, but it's been explained a million times on these threads that theories, in science, are not guesses or speculation, which is what "theory" means in popular usage. In science "theory" has a technical meaning and it always has. It is an accepted explanation for a phenomena or set of phenomena, determined through evidence, observation, experimentation, the testing of hypotheses (which ARE "speculation," or "guesses," although educated ones).

However, you are still using the word "THEORY" in a dismissive, pejorative fashion, as in "Evolution is just a theory, it hasn't been proven." Which makes it clear that either haven't read these threads, or nothing has sunk in, or you are being deliberately obtuse.

80 Fried Spam  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:35:41pm

re: #67 Fried Spam

I have indeed seen that from a great many posters on these threads, particularly as the comment posts get very numerous.

Actually, let me revise my own comment. I have indeed seen a great many posts as you describe, from a small number of individuals. I think that the vast majority of people are willing to compromise and come to a consensus as long as it doesn't contradict their core beliefs, but there are some that are fundamentalists and crusaders. The fundamentalists and crusaders can be evolutionists and atheists as well as creationists.

81 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:36:31pm

re: #79 Tigger2005

"OBUSE!?OBTUSE!I'll cast you down to the sodomites!"
/shaeshank redemption off

82 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:36:59pm

re: #65 natemannq

You sound like a relative of Allegory as well... Because someone disagrees, they are stupid and unwilling to look at the facts..

Interesting. My guess is that you're critical of Al Gore and the Global Warmers while engaging in the same tactics yourself.. There's a name for that.

www.creationontheweb.com

Can you read that?

Oh so wrong, bubulah. I said you were IGNORANT, not STUPID.

Words do have meaning, you know. You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Understand the underpinnings of science before you start trying to take up the discussion with others here, or you will most definitely be condemned by your very own words as a person of ignorance.

Feel free to disagree with me all you wish. Just don't expect me to not disagree back. At least I will do my best to keep it on a civil level.

Oh, and I have already spent considerable time at the website you linked. Read it, evaluated it, and deemed it as lacking in rigor, depth, and understanding.

83 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:38:27pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh, and I have already spent considerable time at the website you linked. Read it, evaluated it, and deemed it as lacking in rigor, depth, and understanding.

You're much more diplomatic than me. I would call it "absolute hooey."

84 profitsbeard  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:39:17pm

Since the Universe is apparently eternal and boundless (every before has a before that, every barrier has a beyond), the "origin" of Life question must take on a more narrow meaning.

The Cosmos may be always generating complex mixtures of proto-life (amino acid precursors, prions, etc.) from its fundamental energy-matter matrixes... as naturally as it generates hydrogen and then coalesces the atoms into gravity-guided spheres... and if there never was a time when there was "beginning", then origins becomes a localized exercise in tracing down organisms to their primoridial forms, here.

Since we are unlikely to ever be able to know beyond our own senses (and their extensions through our inventions) and inherent mental limits and relatively-infinitesimal lifespans and the Red Barrier of light, what lies beyond the observable, localized "Big Bang" region of the boundless Universe will remain a permanent and tantalyzing Mystery.

(But the "opposite" infinity, downwards, holds equally endless possibilities... that nanotech is just touching... for our inquiries, and gave us Zeno's tantalizing ancient paradox of the arrow which could never reach its target.)

85 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:40:10pm

re: #18 Fried Spam

From the linked article:

This gets back to an original precept of mine. Isn't DNA the cornerstone of biology? As such, shouldn't it be the basis of biology education?

Sal: Actually, the cornerstones of biology are random mutation and nonrandom (environment caused) natural selection of traits in organisms, via differential survival and reproduction rates, with DNA being the material substrate that codes the traits, and the mutations, being environmentally selected for and against. This is known as evolutionary theory

86 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:40:38pm

re: #76 Boondock St. Bender

the bottom line is id is not science and does not belong in a science classroom.show me one executeable experiment that id has.

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

Using your logic, we should all pack up our tents on the Global Warming argument as well.

87 RotorcraftJOE  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:41:26pm

I think the Gordy Slack article was well thought out and written well. His points were presented well. The reply by Nick Matzke sounded rather arrogant.

88 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:41:30pm

re: #83 Charles

You're much more diplomatic than me. I would call it "absolute hooey."

I might have as well if I were the owner of the blog. Alas, I am but a guest here, and so should comport myself as such. ;)

89 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:41:35pm

re: #22 gopninja

fine by me, as long as that single ancestor is 10,000 years old.

Sal: I see deep disappointment and dismay in your future.

90 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:42:26pm

re: #81 Boondock St. Bender

"OBUSE!?OBTUSE!I'll cast you down to the sodomites!"
/shaeshank redemption off

LOL I actually cannot use that word without thinking about that movie (a great one).

91 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:42:36pm

re: #27 GOPninja

hahaha... rock candy

Big Rock Candy Mountain

92 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:42:45pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh so wrong, bubulah. I said you were IGNORANT, not STUPID.

Words do have meaning, you know. You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Understand the underpinnings of science before you start trying to take up the discussion with others here, or you will most definitely be condemned by your very own words as a person of ignorance.

Feel free to disagree with me all you wish. Just don't expect me to not disagree back. At least I will do my best to keep it on a civil level.

Oh, and I have already spent considerable time at the website you linked. Read it, evaluated it, and deemed it as lacking in rigor, depth, and understanding.

A little testy when someone disagrees with you, huh? I like how you hurl insults and then blame others for doing it to you.

wow

93 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:43:22pm

re: #92 natemannq

A little testy when someone disagrees with you, huh? I like how you hurl insults and then blame others for doing it to you.

wow

Gee- like calling some one al gore? You, sir, are a hypocrite.

94 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:43:44pm

re: #23 ladycatnip

#13 Mardukhai


Agree. The slow creep of islam in education is far more toxic and dangerous than ID. The latest is about two boys in the UK being given detention because they refused to pray to allah.

I happen to believe God is the Creator of all things, but have no interest in inserting my faith into the high school science curriculum. Even within the community of faith there is so much disagreement on whether it's evolution, Big Bang, Gap Theory, Old Earth, New Earth, or ID. Making room for anything faith-based simply opens the doors to islam.

Sal: Just because the bubonic plague is a greater threat than lyme disease is no reason not to address them both, as they are both dangerous. This blog can walk and chew gum at the same time.

95 ec marm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:46:08pm

re: #59 Charles

He did NOT admit to forging the Obama document. This story is a huge nothing. The document is real, and I suspect the whole thing is a clumsy trap that some bloggers are falling for.


The seal that should have been visible on the scanned document evolved into paper? Gateway Pundit, who I consider to be a trustworthy, non-shark jumping blog, is linking to the story. You don't want to hedge just a little? It is Kos, after all, who'll end up with egg on his face, if he got 'shopped.

96 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:46:41pm

re: #93 Sharmuta

Let him/her quietly fold his/her global tent in gloom and
silence.

97 po8crg  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:46:49pm

It's worth pointing out that evolution by means of natural selection explains the DIVERSITY of life, not the EXISTENCE of life. Like most science, it addresses a relatively narrow question - given that there was a last common ancestor, how do we get to the diversity of life that now exists?

That's why it's not really sensible to see evolution and creation as being in opposition; the origination of life is the question of abiogenesis - how does life arise from non-life? Most scientists will simply say "We don't know".

Incidentally, to the strictest of scientific minds, even if you could prove that God did something that wouldn't settle the question. You'd then have to have theories on why God chose to do what he did and not something else; people trying to conduct repeatable experiments on God; you'd also have people trying to look into the origins question - where did God come from? I really don't want scientists sticking their noses into those questions, thanks.

98 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:47:15pm

re: #86 natemannq

not at all,as was previously stated ad nauseum.this issue is merly a catspaw to get religion back in the schools.in a sneaky and underhanded way i might add.very un cristian-like.

99 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:47:35pm

re: #96 Mike in Georgia

PIMF warming

100 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:50:47pm

Report: Uranium Stockpile Removed From Iraq in Secret U.S. Mission

The last major remnant of Saddam Hussein's nuclear program — a huge stockpile of concentrated natural uranium — reached a Canadian port Saturday to complete a secret U.S. operation that included a two-week airlift from Baghdad and a ship voyage crossing two oceans.

The removal of 550 metric tons of "yellowcake" — the seed material for higher-grade nuclear enrichment — was a significant step toward closing the books on Saddam's nuclear legacy. It also brought relief to U.S. and Iraqi authorities who had worried the cache would reach insurgents or smugglers crossing to Iran to aid its nuclear ambitions.

What is now left is the final and complicated push to clean up the remaining radioactive debris at the former Tuwaitha nuclear complex about 12 miles (19 kilometers) south of Baghdad — using teams that include Iraqi experts recently trained in the Chernobyl fallout zone in Ukraine.

/has anyone told Joe Wilson and his CIA desk jockey wife yet?

101 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:50:47pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

Just out of curiosity, which particular scripture do you assert is the oldest documented history of man?

102 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:54:03pm

re: #92 natemannq

A little testy when someone disagrees with you, huh? I like how you hurl insults and then blame others for doing it to you.

wow

Testy? Nah. You wouldn't want to see me get testy, bubulah, let alone mad. ;)

Do you know the difference between ignorance and stupidity? I have my doubts, but do show me the error of my ways if I am mistaken.

If you want to play you really do need to learn the rules of the game, and the game here is called science.

If you think what I have been throwing at you are insults, all I can say is: "You ain't seen nothing yet."

103 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:54:52pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture.

No shit, Sherlock.

What school did you attend creationist madrassah were you brainwashed in?

104 rawmuse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:55:18pm

re: #100 Killian Bundy

I wrote a letter to the McCain campaign telling them, for the sake of all we hold dear, to RUN with this damn story.

W, the biggest mistake he has made has been to lose the war of Public Relations. He has let his biggest domestic enemies define him and the GWOT, to his, and our profound detriment. Our small failures make headlines for weeks, and our enormous successes are lost in anonymity. This must not continue.

The bad news is that it may already be too late.

105 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:56:13pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

Using your logic, we should all pack up our tents on the Global Warming argument as well.

Uh, there are "documented" creation stories that are much older than Scripture.

And no, accepting evolution does not mean packing up tents on Global Warming. The theory of Evolution has been around 150 years and every single piece of evidence collected from every branch of science, every observation, every experiment conducted in all those years has confirmed and supported it. Not ONE piece of evidence has been brought forward to discredit it. And that's all evolution deniers need...ONE single piece of evidence. The theory of Evolution is science partly because it is falsifiable. All you have to do is produce one piece of evidence to pull it down. Yet the "Discovery" institute, the Creation "Research" people, William Dembski, Michael Behe, et all can't be bothered to produce this evidence or even try to find it.

(Oh, but obviously they have the evidence but they're being prevented from getting it out by the vast scientist/atheist/devil worshiper conspiracy!)

The global warming hypothesis is very new, and understanding and mapping/tracking global weather and cooling/heating patterns is very difficult even with the use of modern technology, computer modeling, etc. There is also an enormous amount of bias and human error at play. This is always the case in science, but the whole thing about the scientific process is that it's designed to overcome human error. Already we are seeing science correcting itself on global warming, with many scientists rejecting the extremist scenarios and others offering alternative (but scientific) hypotheses.

106 Idle Drifter  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:57:05pm

re: #101 Slumbering Behemoth

I was curious about that as well, Chinese, Egyptian, and Babylonian histories go quiet a ways into the past.

107 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:58:29pm

re: #106 Idle Drifter

I was curious about that as well, Chinese, Egyptian, and Babylonian histories go quiet a ways into the past.

/well before the written word

108 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:59:08pm

The shouting about this subject, Darwin vs. ID, comes from trying to put theology into a science box.

Let's quit shouting

It does no good, either to science or theology

109 Paul  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 2:59:12pm

Another milestone on the road to dhimmitude. English schoolboys punished for refusing to pray to Allah.

110 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:01:10pm

re: #97 po8crg

And anyway, Thomas Aquinas explored most of the theology already.

111 zach_the_lizard  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:01:13pm

Am I the only one who saw "OOL" and thought "Object Oriented Language?" I quickly dove through the text, only to discover it was the "origin of life" question. Though interested in both topics, I was hoping to get my (computer) nerd on.

/sigh

112 JohnnyReb  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:01:31pm

re: #109 Paul

Another milestone on the road to dhimmitude. English schoolboys punished for refusing to pray to Allah.

A voice of sanity in the war:

"But if Muslims were asked to go to church on Sunday and take Holy Communion there would be war."

113 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:02:24pm

re: #35 natemannq

When the evolutionists can PROVE their case with something other than theories, it can be treated as indisputable..

Sal: Yet another person who does not understand how strong a theory is in science, and how much supporting empirical evidence is required for such a designation to be granted.

Problem with the evolutionists is they are not far removed from the Al Gores of the world in that they assert their THEORIES as fact and want to end debate.. The truth is they cannot explain the origin of man with facts, only plausible conjecture..

Sal: And ignorant of the work done in the field, too, such as the thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences found in identical locations in the genomes of humans and great apes. The chances of them all occurring as they are and where they do in the absence of common ancestors are, statistically speaking, vanishingly small. And this point has been made here over and over and over again, without a single credible refutation.

You cannot end debate when you cannot prove your case. Attempting to do so is the essence of closed-mindedness....

www.creationontheweb.com

Sal: And also, this person does not understand that science(although it can prove things absolutely false) cannot, in principle, prove anything true 100% as that would foreclose any chance for further empirical evidence to refine a theory. However evolutionary theory is supported by such a vast mass of evidence that the chances of the basics being flawed is vanishingly, infinitesimally small, and for all practical purposes, nonexistent. And no credible empirical evidence has ever been presented that contradicts its basic tenets.

There is no rational doubt that evolution happens. Species change over time. There is also no rational doubt that mutation, natural selection, and DNA are involved.

114 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:03:17pm

re: #101 Slumbering Behemoth

Just out of curiosity, which particular scripture do you assert is the oldest documented history of man?

George Burns' drivers license.
/

115 poteen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:04:40pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

That, simply, is not true.

116 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:05:33pm

re: #106 Idle Drifter

It seems that an answer will not be coming anytime soon. I got stuffs to do, so I'll see you Lizards later.

117 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:07:54pm
118 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:08:01pm

re: #67 Fried Spam

However, to some very small extent I find myself sympathetic to teaching ID in K-12 simply as a reaction to the zealotry exhibited by many strident evolutionists that want to squash any personal belief in God.

Hmmm. It's the atheists' fault?

119 ornery elephant  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:08:38pm

re: #115 poteen

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

That, simply, is not true.

Exactly. everyone knows the oldest documented history of man was Darwin's great, great, great, great, grandad...an Amoeba who wrote the best seller "Swimming with the Sharks"

120 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:08:41pm
121 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:09:41pm

re: #46 tremblur

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview. They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts? He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer. Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

Sal: Another couple of the Wedge Strategy talking points; link evolutionary theory to atheism or naturalism, even if such links are illegitimate and fallacious, and endeavor to equate a support of the scientific method and teaching its theoretical and empirical evidence fruits with the advocacy of untestable and evidence-free sectarioan religious dogmas.

122 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:11:18pm

re: #75 natemannq

No, I wasn't aware but I know a couple of people at Creation Ministries and you can guarantee I will call them on it..

Will you email Charles and let us all know how that goes?

123 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:11:59pm

re: #100 Killian Bundy
I was telling friends about the stockpiles found in Iraq. They thought I was making it up like some sort of morris-rovian troofer.

124 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:12:01pm

re: #103 A. van Hilten

No shit, Sherlock.

What school did you attend creationist madrassah were you brainwashed in?

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

125 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:12:44pm

re: #119 ornery elephant

Exactly. everyone knows the oldest documented history of man was Darwin's great, great, great, great, grandad...an Amoeba who wrote the best seller "Swimming with the Sharks"

These evolutionists are rabid...

126 poteen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:13:22pm

re: #119 ornery elephant

see 117 above. But even older than that was my 1st grade Catechism teacher. Damn she was an OLD nun.

127 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:13:26pm

re: #122 Josephine

Will you email Charles and let us all know how that goes?

Absolutely. What's his email address?

128 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:13:43pm

re: #108 Ojoe

The shouting about this subject, Darwin vs. ID, comes from trying to put theology into a science box.

Let's quit shouting

It does no good, either to science or theology

Is there an IDiotic Table?

129 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:15:18pm

re: #94 Salamantis

This blog can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I think that would make a fine rotating title!

130 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:16:04pm

re: #53 Fried Spam

It depends on exactly what one means by evolution. Let's consider the target audience for some of this public debate. So many people get confused about what exactly is meant by terms, such as evolution, species, even what science actually means.

Sometimes the scientific community uses definitions that are both precise and imprecise at the same time. For example, the term 'species' is actually difficult for biologists to define well. Every biology scientist defines 'species' precisely, but they don't necessarily have a consensus view on the definition. This doesn't lead to good discussions or good public policies.

Even more difficult is the word evolution. Most scientists, and frankly most people, accept the definition that evolution is the process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next. This is testable, has been tested, is used in modern medicine, and is an accepted theory. The problem, though, is that this definition is then extended to be used to say explicitly that this mechanism is known to be how humans are descended from primordial ooze, and it is again used as a weapon against faith.

Sal: you should read the article that is the anchor of this thread. If religions insist upon asserting that they have the answers to empirical questions, they cannot complain when empirical evidence supports, not the answers of those religions, but other answers. When religious dogmas attempt to invade the scientific realm, it should not complain about being expelled from there by means of the weapons of logic, facts and evidence.

131 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:16:34pm

re: #129 Josephine

don't ask us to pat our heads and rub our bellies though.

132 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:17:18pm

re: #54 natemannq

It would seem your mind is made up, Mr. Gore.

It would seem that your mind is made up, Mr. Phelps.

133 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:17:59pm

re: #124 natemannq

You are a hypocrite.

134 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:18:14pm

re: #128 debutaunt

Mostly it would have gasses?

135 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:18:44pm

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Wow, you're kidding, right?

136 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:19:03pm

re: #124 natemannq

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

No, you're just pulling shit out of your ass and rubbing it in our faces.

Get a freakin' education and cut your fundy bullshit. People will respect your "opinions" a lot more that way.

137 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:19:41pm

re: #136 A. van Hilten

language

138 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:00pm

re: #112 JohnnyReb

A voice of sanity in the war:

"But if Muslims were asked to go to church on Sunday and take Holy Communion there would be war."

I like this:

"Educating children in the beliefs of different faith is part of the diversity curriculum on the basis that knowledge is essential to understanding.

"We accept that such teaching is to be conducted with some sense of sensitivity."

As if they had to be convinced of it, like "We really want to ram it down their little throats, but we've been told we have to tone it down a bit."

139 ornery elephant  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:04pm

re: #132 Salamantis

It would seem that your mind is made up, Mr. Phelps.

It would seem that your mind is made up, Mr. Dawkins

140 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:17pm

re: #137 Ojoe

not to mention yuck!

141 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:42pm

re: #136 A. van Hilten

No, you're just pulling shit out of your ass and rubbing it in our faces.

Get a freakin' education and cut your fundy bullshit. People will respect your "opinions" a lot more that way.

Am I on LGF or the Daily Kos?

142 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:20:46pm

re: #124 natemannq

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

And smearing people who disagree with you with the broad brush of Al Gore and ACC is you taking the high and moral road? Yeesh.

You want friendly, then act civil when in other people's company, having the decency of learning about the subject of which others speak. I've read a lot about ID, and have not found the claims to be credible as legitimate scientific inquiry.

143 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:22:14pm

re: #124 natemannq

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

Some of "us people" don't have a lot of patience with those who can't be bothered to learn anything.

When you've heard the stupid, ignorant "Evolution is just a theory" remark ten thousand times it gets irritating.

144 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:22:24pm

re: #142 FurryOldGuyJeans

And smearing people who disagree with you with the broad brush of Al Gore and ACC is you taking the high and moral road? Yeesh.

You want friendly, then act civil when in other people's company, having the decency of learning about the subject of which others speak. I've read a lot about ID, and have not found the claims to be credible as legitimate scientific inquiry.

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

145 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:23:12pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

ID has no place in a science class. None.

146 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:23:19pm

re: #65 natemannq

You sound like a relative of Allegory as well... Because someone disagrees, they are stupid and unwilling to look at the facts..

Interesting. My guess is that you're critical of Al Gore and the Global Warmers while engaging in the same tactics yourself.. There's a name for that.

www.creationontheweb.com

Can you read that?

Sal: Another person trying to tar A with a brush dipped in B.

But have you looked at the facts, without memetic filtering, and not merely confined yourself to cognitively undissonant propaganda proferred by your favorite creationists sites? My guess is no. But all you have to do to get educated is to click on evolution, creeationism, and intelligent design in the tag storm, and read the articles thaqt come up, and the links in them.

147 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:23:51pm

re: #142 FurryOldGuyJeans

And smearing people who disagree with you with the broad brush of Al Gore and ACC is you taking the high and moral road? Yeesh.

You want friendly, then act civil when in other people's company, having the decency of learning about the subject of which others speak. I've read a lot about ID, and have not found the claims to be credible as legitimate scientific inquiry.

Al Gore wouldn't like it if he knew you considered being likened to him a "smear".

148 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:24:02pm

re: #142 FurryOldGuyJeans

Doing a little homework, and learning about this topic requires work and effort. That's hard. It's much easier to resort to ad hominem and wallow in ignorance.

149 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:24:14pm

re: #145 MandyManners

ID has no place in a science class. None.

Defense rests..

150 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:24:46pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

ID is not science- period.

151 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:24:49pm

re: #127 natemannq

Absolutely. What's his email address?

Top of the page, left hand side, beneath the box with your user name, etc., there is a list in green lettering that starts with "LGF Headlines" and ends with "Contact". Click on the triangle beside "Contact" to send him an email.

I'm sure a lot of people would like to understand more about the connection between those two groups.

152 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:25:26pm

re: #146 Salamantis

Sal: Another person trying to tar A with a brush dipped in B.

But have you looked at the facts, without memetic filtering, and not merely confined yourself to cognitively undissonant propaganda proferred by your favorite creationists sites? My guess is no. But all you have to do to get educated is to click on evolution, creeationism, and intelligent design in the tag storm, and read the articles thaqt come up, and the links in them.

That last paragraph had a tinge of elitism to it... Long on words, low on substance.

153 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:25:49pm

re: #137 Ojoe

language

Sorry, but I just find it offensive when someone insults my intelligence by making baseless assertions like that.

Is Disco Institute now in the process of subverting History as well?

154 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:26:28pm

re: #135 natemannq

You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Wow, you're kidding, right?

No, I am not kidding. Try learning at least some basics of a subject before you start espousing any knowledge on the subject. There is a VAST difference between ignorance and stupidity. Show you are of the former and not the latter as you have been so fond of demonstrating lately.

155 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:26:47pm

re: #151 Josephine

Top of the page, left hand side, beneath the box with your user name, etc., there is a list in green lettering that starts with "LGF Headlines" and ends with "Contact". Click on the triangle beside "Contact" to send him an email.

I'm sure a lot of people would like to understand more about the connection between those two groups.

Will do...

A little ironic that I'm willing to explore challenges to my position but so many others on here are unwilling to do the same while calling me "ignorant"..

156 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:26:58pm

re: #145 MandyManners

& Science, well taught, probably leads to a sense of the wonder and mystery of creation anyway.

Which sense is kind of religious.

I don't understand the stridency around this subject.

157 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:27:17pm

re: #141 natemannq

Am I on LGF or the Daily Kos?

Unfortunately for you, this is "the site that fact-checks your ass."

158 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:28:29pm

re: #153 A. van Hilten

Sorry, but I just find it offensive when someone insults my intelligence by making baseless assertions like that.

Is Disco Institute now in the process of subverting History as well?

Nothing like blaming others for your own anger..

159 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:28:40pm

re: #147 natemannq

You keep mentioning Al Gore. He isn't relevant to this subject.

160 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:29:02pm

re: #157 A. van Hilten

Unfortunately for you, this is "the site that fact-checks your ass."

You're a really friendly guy. Has anyone told you?

161 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:29:41pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

If I was you, natemannq, I'd start expanding it with the aid of a proctologist.

162 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:30:08pm

re: #159 jaunte

You keep mentioning Al Gore. He isn't relevant to this subject.

Al Gore = Global Warming is real and man-made... End of Discussion.

Evolutionists = Evolution is real and how man was made.. End of Discussion.

Get it now?

163 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:30:44pm

re: #162 natemannq

Neither discussion is ended.

164 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:30:52pm

re: #161 A. van Hilten

If I was you, natemannq, I'd start expanding it with the aid of a proctologist.

Where are the "ad hominem" attacks coming from again?

165 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:31:21pm

re: #143 Tigger2005

Some of "us people" don't have a lot of patience with those who can't be bothered to learn anything.

When you've heard the stupid, ignorant "Evolution is just a theory" remark ten thousand times it gets irritating.

By the way, I've always found that when people post on pro-evolution boards and express skepticism about evolution, but evince a genuine curiousity and interest in the subject (as well as courtesy) and a willingness to learn, they are generally treated with courtesy and respect in return. Most will even respond patiently to the question "But isn't evolution just a theory?" even if they've heard it ten thousand times before, if it's clear the question is being asked in good faith.

I've also found that the average pro-evolution poster knows far more about ID than the average pro-ID person knows about evolution, because most of the pro-ID people have only been exposed to distorted, strawman versions of evolution (like that found in the movie "Expelled").

166 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:31:52pm

re: #67 Fried Spam

I have indeed seen that from a great many posters on these threads, particularly as the comment posts get very numerous.

I'll have to stick up for Charles at this point. He has not been doing what you have said. Others have, but not him. As I read it, he is strongly against ID in science class in public schools. I am not in favor of it either. However, to some very small extent I find myself sympathetic to teaching ID in K-12 simply as a reaction to the zealotry exhibited by many strident evolutionists that want to squash any personal belief in God.

Sal: I have seen people who simply want nothing but science taught in public high school science class derided in these threads as atheists, materialists, relativists, communists, nazis, and corrupt, wicked ghouls lacking all moral compunctions. Remove the beam from your own side's mouth before plucking the mote out of ours.

As to the idea of inserting religious dogmas into high school science class in order to provide a counterbalance for all these raving atheists which you seem to be certain permeate America's public school system, I'm in favor of simply counseling teachers that bring up either religious assertions or religious denials in science class, and canning them if the behavior persists. I am NOT in favor of shoehorning sectarian religious dogmas into high school science glass via the fig leaf of 'evenhandedness.'

167 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:32:02pm

re: #162 natemannq

Do you know what the scientific method is?

168 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:33:01pm

re: #132 Salamantis

Hey Salamantis - Do you think it reasonable life on this planet may have arrived from a meteor then evolved? (links in comments 24,26)

Would that alter current scientific timetables and hypotheses about lightning striking primordial ooze?

169 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:34:31pm

re: #167 Sharmuta

Do you know what the scientific method is?

Yes, and gathering empirical evidence for the purpose of experimentation using reason has its place.

So does faith.

170 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:34:34pm

Did I mention that Al Gore is an idiot and his science is junk.

171 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:34:37pm

re: #75 natemannq

No, I wasn't aware but I know a couple of people at Creation Ministries and you can guarantee I will call them on it..

Sal: Now why does the fact that you know people at Creation Ministries not surprise me?

172 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:35:18pm

re: #169 natemannq

How do you apply ID to the scientific method?

173 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:35:58pm

re: #171 Salamantis

Sal: Now why does the fact that you know people at Creation Ministries not surprise me?

There's that open mind at work..

Keep it up, you're doing great.

174 akak  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:36:49pm
WASHINGTON, July 4: When Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani meets President George W. Bush at the White House on June 28, he will tell the US leader that Islamabad will tolerate a US incursion into Fata if it is directed specifically against Al Qaeda leaders Osama bin Laden or Ayman Al Zawahiri – but nobody else, says a report published on Friday

dawn

well he's bad bad Leroy Brown badest man in the whole damn town.

[Link: dawn.com...]

175 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:39:03pm

re: #164 natemannq

Where are the "ad hominem" attacks coming from again?

Oh, borhter. Do you seriously expect me to "respect" your delicate sensibilities when you post this BS?

"THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture."

Sorry, but willful ignorance is deserving only of contempt.

176 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:39:10pm
177 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:39:22pm

re: #149 natemannq

Oh, go piss up a rope.

178 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:39:53pm

re: #149 natemannq

You're now on GAZE.

179 LizardBennet  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:07pm

OT--but this is just nuts

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

180 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:09pm

re: #169 natemannq

Yes, and gathering empirical evidence for the purpose of experimentation using reason has its place.

So does faith.

And the place for faith is at home, in church, in religion classes, not in science class, and actually, not in any public school class at all. Do you want your children learning whichever version of faith your local school board approves, from a teacher who probably knows nothing of theology and certainly isn't qualified to teach it? Wouldn't it be much better for you to teach your child your faith at home, in the house of worship you attend, or through religion classes you have chosen, taught by someone certified to teach your religion?

181 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:13pm

re: #172 Sharmuta

How do you apply ID to the scientific method?

Did I mention Faith?

I thought I did.

182 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:51pm

re: #177 MandyManners

Oh, go piss up a rope.

I'm surrounded by Kos kids..

This is NOT what I expected here..

wow

183 MandyManners  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:53pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Astronomy Picture of the Day
Wow.

Oh, my stars! That is gorgeous.

184 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:40:53pm

re: #181 natemannq

How do you apply the scientific method to that?!

185 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:41:44pm

re: #183 MandyManners

Read the description, I didn't notice the comet at first.

186 jorline  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:41:58pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Astronomy Picture of the Day
Wow.

Great pic, Killgore

187 WindHorse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:42:20pm

re: #174 akak

...something is wrong with that article, if you ask me.... "when he... meets George Bush.... on June 28.... he will tell....

and the article is dated July 4.

Will this fellow meet Bush NEXT June 28th?

188 natemannq  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:42:34pm

re: #184 Sharmuta

re: #184 Sharmuta

How do you apply the scientific method to that?!

Now we're getting somewhere.

189 LizardBennet  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:42:45pm

oops--I made my nic blue by putting that link as being my website accidentally. I don't usually post links so I wasn't sure how to do it.

190 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:43:04pm

re: #188 natemannq

Tell me how you apply the scientific method to ID.

191 A. van Hilten  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:43:05pm

re: #182 natemannq

I'm surrounded by Kos kids..

This is NOT what I expected here..

wow

Feel the love!

192 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:44:34pm

re: #86 natemannq

The executable experiment is that no one knows and THE OLDEST documented history of man is Scripture..

Sal: Sorry about that, but there are many writings that are older than the Old Testament. One of my personal favorites is the Epic of Gilgamesh, which tells a Great Flood story waay before the Old Testament Noah could have been born. Another is the Hammurabic Code, which contains many of the Ten Commandments and dates to long before Noah's purported birth.

Using your logic, we should all pack up our tents on the Global Warming argument as well.

Sal: No, because of the difference. GoreBull Warming is bad science, which is why scientists who are following the empirical evidence are leaving its bandwagon in droves; IDF is pseudoscience, which means there is not a shred of empirical evidence supporting it, and never will be, because it is not empirically testable. It is religious dogma poorly masquerading as science, and abjectly failing to do so.

193 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:45:39pm

re: #87 RotorcraftJOE

I think the Gordy Slack article was well thought out and written well. His points were presented well. The reply by Nick Matzke sounded rather arrogant.

Sal: I guess your definition of arrogant is 'chocked full of facts which contradict your position.'

194 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:47:37pm

re: #92 natemannq

A little testy when someone disagrees with you, huh? I like how you hurl insults and then blame others for doing it to you.

wow

Sal: Describing something as it in fact is may make your hackles rise, but, by definition, the truth can be neither slander nor insult.

195 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:49:04pm

Faith and Science are not mutually exclusive.

196 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:49:21pm

Come on, nate- you claim to understand the scientific method. Give us an example of how it can be applied to ID. A number of us have been waiting weeks, months for such an example. You'll be heralded as a hero to the ID movement. Just one example.... We're all waiting.

197 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:50:42pm

re: #194 Salamantis

Sal: Describing something as it in fact is may make your hackles rise, but, by definition, the truth can be neither slander nor insult.

The truth will set us free, but first it will make us miserable™

198 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:51:45pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

ID is not science, so any addition of it is not required nor should be allowed in a school SCIENCE class. There are so many things wrong with the current state of American Education, but ID taught as science is not a solution.

Oh so wrong again, bubulah. I am not opposed to ANY exposure of ID in school. It should just have no inclusion in any science curriculum, period. Have a philosophy class, or comparative religion class, and go get them warm fuzzies.

You really do need to bone up on some science basics.
-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------
re: #147 natemannq

Al Gore wouldn't like it if he knew you considered being likened to him a "smear".

What Al Gore thinks of me really doesn't interest me nor concern me one jot, tittle, or iota. But keep dodging with ad hominem attacks, bubulah, you are quickly shifting from being classified as ignorant. ;)
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------
re: #148 Sharmuta

Doing a little homework, and learning about this topic requires work and effort. That's hard. It's much easier to resort to ad hominem and wallow in ignorance.

Some people keep showing how easy it is to keep cursing the darkness and refuse to light that candle.

Guess I must be a space alien or something since I have always found it harder to NOT learn about something if my interest gets piqued. I just wish there was more time to learn about all that does. ;)

FYI, currently in the process of reading:

Programming Windows, Fifth Edition, Charles Petzold
Icon of Evil: Hitler's Mufti and the Rise of Radical Islam, David G. Dalin and John F. Rothman
James, The Brother of Jesus, Robert Eisenman
The Fate of the Romanovs, Greg King and Penny Wilson
Inside Star Trek: The Real Story, Herbert F. Solow and Robert H. Justman

So I am at a loss why someone in all seriousness would call me closed-minded. ;)

199 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:52:18pm

re: #97 po8crg

It's worth pointing out that evolution by means of natural selection explains the DIVERSITY of life, not the EXISTENCE of life. Like most science, it addresses a relatively narrow question - given that there was a last common ancestor, how do we get to the diversity of life that now exists?

That's why it's not really sensible to see evolution and creation as being in opposition; the origination of life is the question of abiogenesis - how does life arise from non-life? Most scientists will simply say "We don't know".

Incidentally, to the strictest of scientific minds, even if you could prove that God did something that wouldn't settle the question. You'd then have to have theories on why God chose to do what he did and not something else; people trying to conduct repeatable experiments on God; you'd also have people trying to look into the origins question - where did God come from? I really don't want scientists sticking their noses into those questions, thanks.

Sal: As the article anchoring this thread makes amply and abundantly clear, scientists know quite a bit more about abiogenesis than their religious detractors do.

But fear not; the questions you dread will never be posed, for proving either the existence or the nonexistence of deity is beyond the purview of science.

200 snowman  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:54:31pm

Charles, I respect your great political blogging...but please leave this for other forums. This begins to look like you're running around shoring up a building of rotting timbers. I see a bunch of non-productive name calling in this thread, and a whole lot of faith-based comments from both sides.


Let's leave this one alone.

201 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:55:31pm

re: #200 snowman

What's the name of your new blog?

202 Charles  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:55:32pm

re: #200 snowman

No.

203 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:55:34pm

re: #198 FurryOldGuyJeans

Guess I must be a space alien or something since I have always found it harder to NOT learn about something if my interest gets piqued. I just wish there was more time to learn about all that does. ;)

Me too. And this topic certainly piqued my interest- enough to buy a book on it, which taught me tons. And then there's all the material on line too.

And, like you, I'm reading more than one book at the moment too, with an ever growing list of others to get to. Makes me wish for more hours in the day, or an ability to get by with little to no sleep. :)

204 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:56:19pm

re: #107 Killian Bundy

/well before the written word

Sal|: But also having produced written texts considerably older than the Old Testament.

205 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:57:04pm

re: #162 natemannq

Al Gore = Global Warming is real and man-made... End of Discussion.

Evolutionists = Evolution is real and how man was made.. End of Discussion.

Get it now?

As I pointed out above, the theory of Evolution has been around for 150 years, and every single piece of evidence collected from every branch of science relevant to the theory has supported and further confirmed it, and not a single piece of evidence has discredited it. Furthermore it is a highly useful science--it can be used to make predictions which can be tested. It is useful for understanding how insects become resistant to pesticides, how germs resist antibiotics, how to produce higher crop yields, and so on. Yes, as far as the overall process by which life arrived at its present state of diversity, the discussion pretty much is ended, although there are still many, many questions remaining to be answered. Nevertheless it's as ridiculous to expect children to be taught "alternatives" to evolution as it is for them to be taught that they can make a TV work by either plugging it into an electrical outlet or energizing it with a charge of magical energy channeled through a wooden stick purchased in Diagon Alley. Why keep re-inventing the wheel? There simply aren't any credible scientific alternatives to evolution. If you want children to be taught one, then do the research and come up with one. Hint: ID ain't it.

The Global Warming issue is really not that comparable to evolution. Yes, both involve science. But global warming research is in its very early stages compared to evolution research, and it's a study of something vast and complex and dynamic and there are powerful political and economic forces and personal biases at play. Again, personal biases and the like affected the study of evolution as well, but evolution emerged from that intact, supported by all the accumulated evidence. On the other hand, there is still plenty of room for questioning the supposed consensus on global warming and doubting the catastrophic scenarios proposed by scare merchants like Al Gore. When someone goes around blaming every weather-related disaster on global warming, it's perfect legitimate to question the supposed "science" behind those claims.

206 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:57:15pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Astronomy Picture of the Day
Wow.

THANKS!

207 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:57:39pm

re: #108 Ojoe

The shouting about this subject, Darwin vs. ID, comes from trying to put theology into a science box.

Let's quit shouting

It does no good, either to science or theology

Sal: Actually, it comes from Theology trying to inject itself into the Science box, where it doesn't belong.

208 snowman  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:58:03pm

re: #201 debutaunt

new blog.... just the old one.

209 JohnnyReb  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:58:43pm

Leave God out of the classroom. I will teach my kids about God with the help of my preacher, that is our job, not some teacher in a public school classroom. Enough said.

210 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:59:47pm

re: #205 Tigger2005

Nevertheless it's as ridiculous to expect children to be taught "alternatives" to evolution as it is for them to be taught that they can make a TV work by either plugging it into an electrical outlet or energizing it with a charge of magical energy channeled through a wooden stick purchased in Diagon Alley.

That cracked me up- thanks.

211 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 3:59:52pm

re: #208 snowman

new blog.... just the old one.

Good luck to you! Any specific topics encouraged or excluded?

212 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:00:24pm

re: #119 ornery elephant

Exactly. everyone knows the oldest documented history of man was Darwin's great, great, great, great, grandad...an Amoeba who wrote the best seller "Swimming with the Sharks"

Sal: Check out the Rig Veda, an extended paean of praise to the entheogenic properties of the Amanita Muscaria mushroom.

213 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:02:49pm

re: #124 natemannq

you people are real friendly with people who disagree with you...

And then you try to portray yourselves as taking the high road.

Perfect....

The Al Gore gene is riled up apparently.

Sal: No, it's just that our bullshit tolerance has been sorely taxed by all the creationist crapola shoveled around here lately poorly pretending to make scientific sense.

214 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:00pm

re: #54 natemannq

It would seem your mind is made up, Mr. Gore.

He really doesn't know you, does he?

215 hoisted  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:03pm

re: #105 Tigger2005

Not ONE piece of evidence has been brought forward to discredit it. And that's all evolution deniers need...ONE single piece of evidence. The theory of Evolution is science partly because it is falsifiable. All you have to do is produce one piece of evidence to pull it down.


First off, I'm an "old-Earth" creationist. The first piece of evidence that comes to mind for me is the problem of convergence (unrelated organisms possessing nearly identical anatomical, physiological, behavioral, and biochemical characteristics). It's much more common than would be expected when unrelated organisms "evolve" separately. It's the idea of, "if one could rewind the evolutionary tape and start over again and again, one would expect a different outcome each time." What we find, however, is something commonly entirely different. Here is a good read on this subject: [Link: www.reasons.org...]

The recently-touted e coli long-term experiment is a good example. Lenski was able to reproduce his results (the ability to metabolize citrate) only when starting with the generation one step away from this mutation. Going back any further failed to reproduce the results. I believe there is a longer discussion of this here: [Link: www.oneplace.com...]

As I said, I'm am "old-Earth/old-universe" creationist. Bad science (i.e. the universe is 6000 years old) has no place in public school. However, the issue just described, the acrimony between strict adherents to gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, etc., should be required teaching. The idea that macro-evolution is a fait accompli is absurd.

In any case, the best arguments IMO for a Creator are found in Physics/Astrophysics and I'd be happy to get into with anyone who isn't too sick of this topic already.

216 JohnnyReb  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:04pm

Wel if you want Norse Gods, this girl could surely call them up:

217 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:47pm

re: #125 natemannq

These evolutionists are rabid...

Says a creationist mouth-frother.

218 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:03:51pm

re: #214 ContraJihadi

No- he doesn't.

219 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:04:28pm

re: #200 snowman

Charles, I respect your great political blogging...but please leave this for other forums. This begins to look like you're running around shoring up a building of rotting timbers. I see a bunch of non-productive name calling in this thread, and a whole lot of faith-based comments from both sides.

Let's leave this one alone.

The thing is that ID being taught as science has entered the political realm now. It can end up being just as corrosive to the Great American Experiment as Radical Islam is now. Must we have a September 10th attitude to yet another growing danger?

I can't speak directly for Charles but I divine that he sees the two to be kindred spirits in what they want to achieve, the destruction of America.

220 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:04:35pm

re: #181 natemannq

re: #172 Sharmuta
How do you apply ID to the scientific method?

Did I mention Faith?

I thought I did.

I respect your Faith, but it is not my Faith.
Am I right or wrong?

221 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:05:27pm

Afternoon lizards!

Are we having fun yet?

222 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:05:57pm

re: #220 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Not only that, but how do you apply the scientific method to that.

Also- do we really want to?

223 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:06:33pm

re: #221 jcm

Yes- we're all thrilled to be considered al gore.

224 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:06:55pm

re: #221 jcm

Afternoon lizards!

Are we having fun yet?

Excuse me while I use my napkin.

225 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:07:09pm

The question is not whether it is turtles all the way down....

But who put the turtle on the post.

226 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:07:27pm

re: #135 natemannq

You might want to learn some basic definitions before you start tilting at windmills and making public slurs upon one's character.

Wow, you're kidding, right?

Sal: I gather from that response that we cannot expect you to learn what scientists mean by such terms as 'theory', 'hypothesis', 'conjecture', 'empirical evidence', 'verification principle', or 'falsification' in the foreseeable future...

227 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:07:38pm

re: #222 Sharmuta

Not only that, but how do you apply the scientific method to that.

Also- do we really want to?

(I'm taking another tack on him, Sharm)

228 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:08:22pm

Tygers of Pan Tang

INSANITY,
R

229 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:08:29pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

Yes- we're all thrilled to be considered al gore.

That's going over the line.

I am not that fat.

230 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:08:59pm

re: #139 ornery elephant

It would seem that your mind is made up, Mr. Dawkins

It would seem that your mnd is made up, Mr. Robertson.

231 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:09:17pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

I'd just like to have his back yard.

232 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:09:44pm

re: #226 Salamantis

Sal: I gather from that response that we cannot expect you to learn what scientists mean by such terms as 'theory', 'hypothesis', 'conjecture', 'empirical evidence', 'verification principle', or 'falsification' in the foreseeable future...

Puhleeze! That would mean work. Why learn about a subject when one can so gloriously extol their ignorance without putting any effort in. ;)

233 Dan G.  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:09:55pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

Its interesting that the IDer's think that we are more closely associated with Al Gore when they are the ones also dabbling into pseudoscience.

234 snowman  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:10:08pm

re: #219 FurryOldGuyJeans

Destruction of America? ID proponnents? yikes, this is just too nutty.

good night. have fun. Sorry this thread has become so silly.

235 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:10:16pm

re: #231 jaunte

I'd just like to have his back yard.

Or, even a small corner of his house.

236 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:11:21pm

re: #235 reine.de.tout

Or, even a small corner of his house.

One-tenth of his monthly electric bill deposited into my bank account.

237 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:11:33pm

The Science front...

The 9th Circus makes sense.

*picking jaw up off floor*

9th Circuit: Judges shouldn't act as scientists

BOISE, Idaho (AP) - An 11-judge panel of the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled it's improper for federal judges to act as scientists when weighing in on disputed U.S. Forest Service timber projects.

Timber industry lobbyists and Forest Service officials called the unanimous ruling that overturned a challenge to a northern Idaho logging sale significant. The decision was significant partly because it emerged from a court often seen as favorable to environmental groups.

238 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:11:39pm

re: #231 jaunte

At his new $4mil waterfront condo - lol

239 lance  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:12:07pm

Man, what a bore these threads are...not even fun to troll anymore. Please Charles....can we move on to something else?

OK, now that that's out of my system, check this out (or oot, if you're a Canuck):

Largest mosque opens in Calgary to political fanfare

Harper shows up to this? When's the last time the leader of any Western country graced the opening of church with their presence? Yeesh.

240 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:12:33pm

re: #231 jaunte

I'd just like to have his back yard.

I'll take the house.

pBMb can have the power bill.....
;-P

241 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:12:53pm

Black Sabbath

PARANOID,
R

242 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:12:58pm

re: #237 jcm

That has to be a fabrication. The Ninth would NEVER do that!

/sarc

243 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:13:05pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

Sal: You do. Your mind is closed to the distinction between empirically supported scientific assertions and evidence-free and inherently untestable sectarian religious dogma, which is why you wanna cram religion down other peoples' kids' throats in public high school science class.

244 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:13:29pm

re: #238 MacGregor

Either way; let's see some redistribution!

245 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:14:18pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

That has to be a fabrication. The Ninth would NEVER do that!

/sarc

A broken clock is right twice a day.

246 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:14:39pm

re: #233 Dan G.

Its interesting that the IDer's think that we are more closely associated with Al Gore when they are the ones also dabbling into pseudoscience.

Indeed- I think it's called "projection".

247 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:14:46pm

re: #237 jcm

The Science front...

The 9th Circus makes sense.

*picking jaw up off floor*

9th Circuit: Judges shouldn't act as scientists

Now *there's* a positively cosmic event, a great discontinuity.

248 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:15:30pm

re: #152 natemannq

That last paragraph had a tinge of elitism to it... Long on words, low on substance.

Sal: No, there's plenty of substance there, and I told you precisely where to go to avail yourself of it. Not that you ever would, of course...

249 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:15:34pm

re: #239 lance

Man, what a bore these threads are...not even fun to troll anymore. Please Charles....can we move on to something else?

OK, now that that's out of my system, check this out (or oot, if you're a Canuck):

Largest mosque opens in Calgary to political fanfare

Harper shows up to this? When's the last time the leader of any Western country graced the opening of church with their presence? Yeesh.

You don't like the ID threads don't read 'em. What about "This is Charles' blog so he gets to put up what he wants" don't you understand?

250 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:15:43pm

re: #243 Salamantis

Sal: You do. Your mind is closed to the distinction between empirically supported scientific assertions and evidence-free and inherently untestable sectarian religious dogma, which is why you wanna cram religion down other peoples' kids' throats in public high school science class.

Additionally the ID as presented by the Disco Institute is bad science, and bad faith. It also would have a huge train of unintended consequences.

251 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:16:42pm

Why are the creationists simultaneously claiming the want open discussion about evolution in the class room but they don't want it discussed here?

252 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:17:26pm

re: #155 natemannq

Will do...

A little ironic that I'm willing to explore challenges to my position but so many others on here are unwilling to do the same while calling me "ignorant"..

1) You started out on the wrong foot (see your #35). Putting people down is never a valid way to debate and it is always guaranteed to get peoples' backs up. If that's what you wanted to accomplish, well, it worked. (Read that comment out loud in front of a mirror and see how you come across.) It sort of devolved from there and you are largely responsible for that outcome.

2) If you are willing to explore challenges to your position, and are not just here to argue DI talking points, that's really great. Perhaps you could start by reading a book that Sharmuta has recommended several times. I think this is the one.

If you do have an open mind, you could also read some of the previous threads and articles posted.

Once you have read The Wedge Document, etc., think about how you would approach this topic if you were in a room full of co-workers.

3) This is a tough room. If you really want to learn, and are not just here to stir the pot, do some research and change your debating tactics, so the next time you enter the discussion, you don't start off by alienating folks.

And...

4) Perhaps, after doing a lot of research, you might still decide that you disagree with evolution and agree with ID. If that's the case, my advice would be to avoid these threads, because science would not be on your side and science is the whole point of this conversation. ID is not science, it is religion cloaked in pseudo-scientific jargon and, as such, it should not be taught in public schools. If, after all of your reading, you still feel that religion should be taught in public schools, then there really is nothing to discuss, because that practice would contravene your country's laws.

253 Racer X  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:17:39pm
Are you classified as humanoid?

Negative - I am a meat popsicle.

254 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:17:54pm

re: #155 natemannq

Will do...

A little ironic that I'm willing to explore challenges to my position but so many others on here are unwilling to do the same while calling me "ignorant"..

Try exploring this one:

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

255 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:17:55pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

It's a shame gore has tainted science to the point it can cast a shadow on legitimate work.

256 Wendya  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:18:04pm

re: #7 Fried Spam

Can we have a discussion on how to best teach science in K-12? Can we teach science without presenting science as a weapon to use against faith? Can we teach science without resorting to using faith as a weapon against science?

It's a shame that the search for answers outside the supernatural has been seen throughout history as an attack on faith.

Some people will always see it that way.

257 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:18:18pm

Uriah Heep

LOOK AT YOURSELF,
R

258 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:18:29pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Why are the creationists simultaneously claiming the want open discussion about evolution in the class room but they don't want it discussed here?

Because we can see through their smoke and mirrors whereas the average American student would have no clue?

259 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:18:53pm

re: #237 jcm

The Science front...

The 9th Circus makes sense.

*picking jaw up off floor*

9th Circuit: Judges shouldn't act as scientists

But should overweight politicians act as scientists?

260 Mr Spiffy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:19:25pm

re: #3 Wyatt Earp

"All known intelligent life can be traced back to a single common ancestor . . ."

And that man's name is Rush Limbaugh. Heh.

fixed that

261 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:19:25pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Why are the creationists simultaneously claiming the want open discussion about evolution in the class room but they don't want it discussed here?


Speculation: There are two teams of ID posters working, the LetUsTalkers and the Yawners.

262 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:19:29pm

re: #259 debutaunt

only self important ones.

263 _Felix  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:20:01pm

I keep wanting to mention A.G. Cairns-Smith because he wrote a nice book about how the first DNA might have come about through a kind of evolution within clay crystals. Nobody's asked that question yet, though, and I've got to go to bed now.

264 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:20:24pm

re: #255 MacGregor

It's a shame gore has tainted science to the point it can cast a shadow on legitimate work.

The Discovery Institute sure is doing a bang-up job of making believers out to be rubes and hicks just off the turnip truck.

265 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:20:52pm

re: #259 debutaunt

But should overweight politicians act as scientists?

Algore is not overweight.
He's retaining carbon for the good of the planet.
/

266 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:21:06pm

re: #158 natemannq

Nothing like blaming others for your own anger..

Sal: It's entirely reasonable to hold others responsible for their own leaked Wedge Strategy plots to propagandize and lie in order to cynically subvert the US Constitution so they can bring about a Christian Iran in America.

267 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:21:36pm

RL Burnside

ITS BAD YOU KNOW,
R

268 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:21:38pm

re: #261 jaunte

Speculation: There are two teams of ID posters working, the LetUsTalkers and the Yawners.

And there are more registering at each open registration.

269 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:22:12pm

re: #15 VegasRick

I hope this thread evolves into a boob thread.


I love 38 DD.

How about you?

270 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:22:18pm
271 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:22:25pm

re: #155 natemannq

Will do...

A little ironic that I'm willing to explore challenges to my position but so many others on here are unwilling to do the same while calling me "ignorant"..

You do know what the word ignorant means, as opposed to stupid, right?

272 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:22:42pm

re: #249 FurryOldGuyJeans

You don't like the ID threads don't read 'em. What about "This is Charles' blog so he gets to put up what he wants" don't you understand?

They sound like a very tinny Mick Jag-head whinning "I can't get no satisfaction!" There once was a time when gratification was not considered a birthright.

Also, this isn't the first time Western Civ has been through this. I refer anyone who has the time to Barbara Tuchman's "A Distant Mirror".

273 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:23:17pm

re: #270 ploome hineni

how long before some of these sock puppets are banned?

/I count 3

Who? Where? Spill them beans . . .

274 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:23:56pm

re: #162 natemannq

Al Gore = Global Warming is real and man-made... End of Discussion.

Evolutionists = Evolution is real and how man was made.. End of Discussion.

Get it now?

Global warming - a bad scientific hypothesis being widely discredited within a few years of it being proposed.

Evolution - a solid scientific theory that has withstood the test of scientific investigation and experiment for 150 years.

Get the difference?

275 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:23:58pm

re: #270 ploome hineni

how long before some of these sock puppets are banned?

/I count 3

What is a sock puppet? I had it explained to me once before... but somethings I don't recall.

276 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:23:59pm

re: #252 Josephine

That is the book I've recommended, Josephine. It's very good, and I hope others who have looked into it will enjoy it as much as I did.

277 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:25:42pm

re: #255 MacGregor

It's a shame gore has tainted science to the point it can cast a shadow on legitimate work.

Didn't Gore invent the internet?

Look lizards you owe the convenience to posting in the forum to Al Gore.

Send him a thank you note and buy him some carbon credits for his home.

278 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:25:50pm

The Cure

BURN,
R

279 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:26:31pm

re: #15 VegasRick

I hope this thread evolves into a boob thread.

I'm in. The evolution of boobs

280 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:27:06pm

re: #279 opnion

I'm in. The evolution of boobs

Why not the creation of them instead?

281 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:27:09pm

re: #275 shanec99

What is a sock puppet? I had it explained to me once before... but somethings I don't recall.

What you put on your foot before putting shoes on.

Hippies don't know what one is.

--
A second account and nic, sometimes used to cause trouble, sometimes for fun.

This is my rifle, this is my gun....

282 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:27:41pm

re: #250 jcm

In my humble opinion, VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY bad faith. It smacks of the Roman churches in the 14th Century displaying Relics of the Saints.

Faith which has to have "things" (and ID is "a thing") in order to prove its rightness isn't faith, in my understanding.

/BITE tongue

283 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:27:44pm

re: #168 MacGregor

Hey Salamantis - Do you think it reasonable life on this planet may have arrived from a meteor then evolved? (links in comments 24,26)

Would that alter current scientific timetables and hypotheses about lightning striking primordial ooze?

Sal: it's an interesting question. There are many possibilities; clay, underwater heat vents...this investigation is ongoing and new things are being learned nearly every day about abiogenesis, although the article this thread is anchoring shows that we know a lot already.

284 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:28:12pm

re: #280 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why not the creation of them instead?

The bigger and firmer the boob the better.

Hate saggy wrinkly boobs.

38 DD are wonderful.

285 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:28:26pm

re: #279 opnion

I'm in. The evolution of boobs

Explain the evolution of this...

286 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:28:33pm

re: #207 Salamantis

You are exactly right; the theists and the atheists both are horning in on science, both trying to get some rub-off from science's high standing in current public esteem.

287 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:28:48pm

re: #169 natemannq

Yes, and gathering empirical evidence for the purpose of experimentation using reason has its place.

So does faith.

Sal: Yes, faith has its place, but that place is not in public high school science class.

288 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:29:09pm

re: #284 shanec99

The bigger and firmer the boob the better.

Hate saggy wrinkly boobs.

38 DD are wonderful.

Show us yer abs, shane.

289 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:29:28pm

re: #282 pre-Boomer Marine brat

In my humble opinion, VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY bad faith. It smacks of the Roman churches in the 14th Century displaying Relics of the Saints.

Faith which has to have "things" (and ID is "a thing") in order to prove its rightness isn't faith, in my understanding.

/BITE tongue

'zactly.

290 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:29:53pm

re: #276 Sharmuta

Thanks, Shar. I'm going to look for it the next time I've got some extra book-buying money.

291 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:30:06pm

re: #173 natemannq

There's that open mind at work..

Keep it up, you're doing great.

Sal: How can not being surprised at a fact that you yourself admit mean that I have a closed mind?

292 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:30:18pm

re: #285 jcm


Lord have mercy.

Does she have a matching set on the frot too?

293 OrdellRobbie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:31:05pm

Newbie here - I keep seeing the same fallacies repeated regarding what ID is. Intelligent Design is NOT synonymous with Creationism. The fact that Creationists fall under the umbrella of Intelligent Design does not mean that all who believe in ID are Creationists. Intelligent design merely states that Random Mutation and Natural Selection, which are the two forces that drive Darwinian evolution are not capable of creating life nor of creating species and new organs and that there is evidence of design manifest in evolution. To keep conflating Intelligent Design with Creationism is a neat rhetorical trick but it is intellectually dishonest. I believe in Evolution; that is change over time and the transition of one species into another. However, I believe that the mechanisms of random mutation and natural selection cannot account for it. There is evidence of active adaptation, for instance, people in the Andes developing greater capacity to breathe in the thin air. These folks develop structural changes that are reflected in changes in their DNA. The problem has been the fact that the reproductive cells do not change. However, mechanisms for this change being carried into reproductive cells exist including viruses. The point is, that adaptive traits being passed on to offspring could result from mechanisms other than random mutation and natural selection. ID would posit that the capacity to adapt to environmental stressors is designed into DNA. To see the shortcomings of Darwin is not necessarily to reject Evolution.

294 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:31:39pm

re: #288 debutaunt

Show us yer abs, shane.

What are abs...? havn't seen anything like that on my anatomy in about a decade.

295 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:31:40pm

What I'm seeing here is a misunderstanding of evolution. The statement "If one could rewind the evolutionary tape and start over againa nd again, one would expect a different outcome each time" is not really part of evolutionary theory, it's just a statement about evolution, and I think you are misunderstanding it.

Convergent evolution is not at all surprising to those who study evolution. Actually, it's quite expected. If something WORKS in a given environment, why would we not expect to see it over and over again in somewhat different forms...wings for example? Evolution can only work with what it has, but nevertheless it's not surprising that creatures that occupy the same niches sometimes end up sharing similar characteristics, no matter how distantly related they may be. Compare the body lines of dolphins, which evolved from land mammals, to those of a shark. Is this really surprising? How does it pose any problems for evolution?

I think your misunderstanding is that you think this statement means evolution should "come up" with entirely new ways of doing the same thing more often. I don't know your source for the statement, but I think the meaning was somewhat different. Whoever said it probably meant we wouldn't have quite the same mix of creatures we have today, and they wouldn't look quite the same (perhaps you might even have a world where dinosaurs never got wiped out or where mammals were always on top). But I think you would still see many of the same "anatomical, physiological, behavioral, and biochemical characteristics." the possibilities are vast, but hardly unlimited.


re: #215 hoisted

First off, I'm an "old-Earth" creationist. The first piece of evidence that comes to mind for me is the problem of convergence (unrelated organisms possessing nearly identical anatomical, physiological, behavioral, and biochemical characteristics). It's much more common than would be expected when unrelated organisms "evolve" separately. It's the idea of, "if one could rewind the evolutionary tape and start over again and again, one would expect a different outcome each time." What we find, however, is something commonly entirely different. Here is a good read on this subject: [Link: www.reasons.org...]

The recently-touted e coli long-term experiment is a good example. Lenski was able to reproduce his results (the ability to metabolize citrate) only when starting with the generation one step away from this mutation. Going back any further failed to reproduce the results. I believe there is a longer discussion of this here: [Link: www.oneplace.com...]

As I said, I'm am "old-Earth/old-universe" creationist. Bad science (i.e. the universe is 6000 years old) has no place in public school. However, the issue just described, the acrimony between strict adherents to gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, etc., should be required teaching. The idea that macro-evolution is a fait accompli is absurd.

In any case, the best arguments IMO for a Creator are found in Physics/Astrophysics and I'd be happy to get into with anyone who isn't too sick of this topic already.

296 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:31:55pm

re: #279 opnion

I'm in. The evolution of boobs

Now I'll jump back in!

297 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:32:14pm

re: #275 shanec99

What is a sock puppet? I had it explained to me once before... but somethings I don't recall.

Technically -- see the last 20-or-so comments on the open registration thread just prior. Look for my blue avatar down there. You'll get the idea.

298 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:32:18pm

re: #282 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And in fact, to have a thing as old as the origin of life, when God is in the here and now

299 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:32:50pm

re: #280 FurryOldGuyJeans

Why not the creation of them instead?

Either way, I'm in.

300 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:32:58pm

re: #281 jcm

WATCH YOUR MOUTH!

301 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:33:04pm

Nazareth

CRAZY,
R

302 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:33:25pm

re: #181 natemannq

Did I mention Faith?

I thought I did.

Sal: In other words, Gish and Behe said it, you believe it, and that settles it. Geez.

303 Wendya  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:33:32pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

To keep conflating Intelligent Design with Creationism is a neat rhetorical trick but it is intellectually dishonest.

It's intellectually dishonest to pretend ID wasn't packaged and delivered by the same people who were previously pimping creationism.

304 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:33:38pm

re: #296 VegasRick

Now I'll jump back in!

See my
re: #285 jcm

Explain the evolution of this...

305 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:34:05pm

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

WATCH YOUR MOUTH!

ROFLMAO!

306 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:34:43pm

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

WATCH YOUR MOUTH!

That should have been a bedtime lullaby for you!
;-P

307 WindHorse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:35:06pm

re: #304 jcm

...not completely sure, but I think it has a lot to do with Lasagna.

308 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:35:54pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

Tell me how you apply the scientific method to ID.

Sal: We may begin getting somewhere when natemannq answers this question.

309 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:18pm

re: #304 jcm

She was from a family that frequently has quadruplets and they brad the women to be able to feed all the babes at once?


Bout my best guess...

Must have been hell holding all four babies at once, especially the ones on er back.

310 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:23pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

Intelligent Design is NOT synonymous with Creationism.

Really?

311 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:26pm

re: #304 jcm

Too much doggie style.

312 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:27pm

re: #296 VegasRick

Now I'll jump back in!


Alright! Gotta start somewhere. Of all the news bunnies on cable, who has the most perky tatas & why?

313 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:36:55pm

re: #296 VegasRick

wolf b**bs

314 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:00pm

re: #307 WindHorse

...not completely sure, but I think it has a lot to do with Lasagna.

you mean a lot of lasagna don't you?

Or are espousing a radical new theory of evolution?
Pasta driven mutations?

315 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:18pm

re: #308 Salamantis

He's not logged in- I'm sure he's working hard at that application, however. ;)

316 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:44pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

Newbie here - I keep seeing the same fallacies repeated regarding what ID is. Intelligent Design is NOT synonymous with Creationism.

Newbie - you need to go back, read the old threads, look at the Wedge Strategy, look at the Discovery Institute,, read the Wedge Document, then come back.

317 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:44pm

re: #312 opnion

Alright! Gotta start somewhere. Of all the news bunnies on cable, who has the most perky tatas & why?

I like the weather girl on FOX. Dominica somethingerother.

318 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:37:50pm

re: #311 VegasRick

Too much doggie style.

Doggie style encourages them to grow like that?

Hmmm I learn something new every day.

319 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:38:41pm

this thread is beyond repair

320 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:38:49pm

re: #313 Ojoe

wolf b**bs


And the founding of Rome

321 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:38:54pm

re: #313 Ojoe

wolf b**bs

My lawyer will be contacting you shortly.

322 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:39:33pm

re: #321 wolfie

in boca al lupo

(good luck in Italian)

323 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:39:54pm

re: #321 wolfie

My lawyer will be contacting you shortly.

Was your lawyer also one of the founders of Rome?

324 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:39:59pm

re: #317 VegasRick

I like the weather girl on FOX. Dominica somethingerother.

Good call. My personal favorie is Megyn Kelly on FOX
Tasteful yet still spectacular

325 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:02pm

BBL

326 WindHorse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:03pm

re: #314 jcm

....that's Major Lasagna to you.

327 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:10pm

Loreena McKennitt

PROSPEROS SPEECH,
R

328 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:42pm

re: #319 Ojoe

this thread is beyond repair

Why repair something that aint broke?

329 Tigger2005  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:40:51pm

The statements made in regard to ID are not fallacies. Science has addressed the claims of IDers in regard to the supposed "shortcomings" of evolution and discredited them. The claims of ID regarding 'evidence' of design have also been discredited. The creationist roots of ID have been well-documented. I suggest you read the Dover, PA report that Charles linked to in an earlier thread.

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

Newbie here - I keep seeing the same fallacies repeated regarding what ID is. Intelligent Design is NOT synonymous with Creationism. The fact that Creationists fall under the umbrella of Intelligent Design does not mean that all who believe in ID are Creationists. Intelligent design merely states that Random Mutation and Natural Selection, which are the two forces that drive Darwinian evolution are not capable of creating life nor of creating species and new organs and that there is evidence of design manifest in evolution. To keep conflating Intelligent Design with Creationism is a neat rhetorical trick but it is intellectually dishonest. I believe in Evolution; that is change over time and the transition of one species into another. However, I believe that the mechanisms of random mutation and natural selection cannot account for it. There is evidence of active adaptation, for instance, people in the Andes developing greater capacity to breathe in the thin air. These folks develop structural changes that are reflected in changes in their DNA. The problem has been the fact that the reproductive cells do not change. However, mechanisms for this change being carried into reproductive cells exist including viruses. The point is, that adaptive traits being passed on to offspring could result from mechanisms other than random mutation and natural selection. ID would posit that the capacity to adapt to environmental stressors is designed into DNA. To see the shortcomings of Darwin is not necessarily to reject Evolution.

330 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:03pm

re: #319 Ojoe

this thread is beyond repair

The hell you say.
Give me minute I'll have it back together.

331 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:16pm

re: #200 snowman

Charles, I respect your great political blogging...but please leave this for other forums. This begins to look like you're running around shoring up a building of rotting timbers. I see a bunch of non-productive name calling in this thread, and a whole lot of faith-based comments from both sides.

Let's leave this one alone.

Sal: Smells suspiciously like what we heard from the supporters of Vlaams Belang to me. Yeah, there's rottenness around, but it's in the Vlaams and in the Disco Institute, and I have the distinct feeling that Charles will continue to canaryblog the coal mines for such rotting idiotarian timbers.

332 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:20pm

re: #318 shanec99

Doggie style encourages them to grow like that?

Hmmm I learn something new every day.

Body gets confused as to which is front and which is back, hence evolution take over and the boobs begin to grow out of the back. She could begin to develope a second mouth as a result as well. Read it in an evolution journal oneday.
/

333 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:20pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbieJust 'cuz you say so don't make it true. Read a few more threads here on the subject and then come back and try to say the same thing. The intellectual dishonesty of the DI and what they propose is profoundly mind-numbing.

334 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:41:47pm

re: #29 David IV of Georgia

If Christianity is true, it has nothing to fear from scientific enquiry.

Certainly, the doctrines of repentance and forgiveness have nothing to fear from scientific inquiry. It is not even clear that the scientific method even applies to them.

335 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:42:10pm

re: #330 jcm

Find you a good plastic surgeon... he can repair a broken boob anytime.

336 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:42:15pm

re: #323 shanec99

Was your lawyer also one of the founders of Rome?

If he were, knowing my luck it would have been Remus instead of Romulus!

337 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:42:51pm

re: #46 tremblur

Fried Spam, you make too much sense. It will never happen. There is too much of a apriori commitment to naturalistic metaphysical philosophical presuppostions that undergird the evolutionary worldview.

You shure dew tawk purty.

They are so commited to this worldview that they will defend it with a fervor that is quite zealous.

Does anyone else see the irony in the zeolotry of Charles' posts?

What irony would that be?

He believes strongly in his position so he blogs on it with the conviction of a true believer.

You mean unlike someone like yourself that just comments on it for chuckles?

Anyone who dares disagree is an idiot, anti-science, ignorant, etc.

You think so?  Hmmm.

}:)     [Next!]

338 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:43:25pm

ZZ Top

BLUE JEAN BLUES,
R

339 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:44:10pm

re: #335 shanec99

Find you a good plastic surgeon... he can repair a broken boob anytime.

One of the cocktail gals at my work had one break. Had to go bigger when she had it repaired. Talk about intelligent design!

340 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:44:24pm

re: #298 Ojoe

And in fact, to have a thing as old as the origin of life, when God is in the here and now

I think I grasp what you're saying, and agree.

My God is extremely here-and-now. (Using a metaphor ...) "Amazing Grace" is immediately here-and-now. It isn't a theology. It isn't whatever happened 100 years or 10,000 millennia ago. It is right here in my face. It's the same as it was with John Newton. It's what drives me to the floor, and what what lifts me up again.

To my mind, whatever happened at the Creation would be a distraction from the here-and-now presence of God.

/rant off

341 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:44:55pm

re: #332 VegasRick

Body gets confused as to which is front and which is back, hence evolution take over and the boobs begin to grow out of the back. She could begin to develope a second mouth as a result as well. Read it in an evolution journal oneday.
/

So the mom, grand mom, and great grand mom get doing doggy style until they produced a girl with boobs on the back?
Darn and I thought it was genetic engineering.
Is it a recessive gene... or should we expect it in subsequent off spring?

342 Wyatt Earp  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:46:01pm

re: #8 Boondock St. Bender

Hey i saw you on tv yesterday!(Tombstone)why in the world didn't you kill ike clanton?he guy was asking for it.

Agreed. He was asking for it. Great performance by Stephen Lang in the Clanton role.

343 Boondock St. Bender  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:47:09pm

re: #342 Wyatt Earp

everyone did a great job on that one,although val kilmer stole the show

344 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:47:51pm

re: #341 shanec99

So the mom, grand mom, and great grand mom get doing doggy style until they produced a girl with boobs on the back?
Darn and I thought it was genetic engineering.
Is it a recessive gene... or should we expect it in subsequent off spring?

Could happen just like THAT (snaps fingers) Spring, Summer, Winter or Fall. Who made the seasons anyway?

345 psyop  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:02pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

If you believe micro (inter-species) or macro (intra-species) evolution can happen, as apparently you do, then it still only comes down to whether or not you think the universe was created in order to progress a certain way (by an intelligence unknowable by mere mortals), or whether it has happened by chance on this planet (because life happens everywhere in the universe where conditions are right, and we are some of the lucky).

346 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:10pm

Ruh-roh.... trouble on the alt. fuels horizon.

Biofuels behind food price hikes: leaked World Bank report

LONDON (AFP) - Biofuels have caused world food prices to increase by 75 percent, according to the findings of an unpublished World Bank report published in The Guardian newspaper on Friday.

The daily said the report was finished in April but was not published to avoid embarrassing the US government, which has claimed plant-derived fuels have pushed up prices by only three percent.

Biofuels, which supporters claim are a "greener" alternative to using fossil fuel and cut greenhouse gas emissions, and rising food prices will be on the agenda when G8 leaders meet in Japan next week for their annual summit.

347 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:45pm

re: #339 VegasRick

One of the cocktail gals at my work had one break. Had to go bigger when she had it repaired. Talk about intelligent design!


Yep... that is scientific ID that I would recommend they teach in school.

348 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:53pm

re: #321 wolfie

My lawyer will be contacting you shortly.

No just a second, your posted description says you're a PhD medievalist. Does this mean you're one of those snarky, fring-left, REVISIONISTS?! YECH! STINKY!

*teasing*
(-:

349 psyop  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:48:59pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

Don't be scared off by the reactions to your post. Debate only works if people disagree.

350 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:50:04pm

Testament

DEMONIC REFUSAL,
R

351 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:51:15pm

re: #349 psyop

Don't be scared off by the reactions to your post. Debate only works if people disagree.

Real lizards never disagree.

Only sock puppets, Kos kids, CAIR supporters and other subversives disagree with lizards.

352 Ojoe  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:51:37pm

re: #340 pre-Boomer Marine brat

exactly.

And here is Dolly Parton, another argument for the existence of God, if you ask me.

I'm out of here, got to get some work done.

Dolly

353 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:52:40pm

re: #346 jcm

Didn't read the article but do you suppose $140 might have
something to do with prices rising? Just a stab in the dark.

354 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:52:41pm

More troubles for Algore....

Now, though, a new Dutch study of 17 years of satellite measurements of ice movement in western Greenland concludes that the speedup of the ice is a transient summertime phenomenon, with the overall yearly movement of the grinding glaciers not changing, and actually dropping slightly in some places, when measured over longer time spans.

Science!

355 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:52:42pm

re: #351 shanec99

Real lizards never disagree.

Only sock puppets, Kos kids, CAIR supporters and other subversives disagree with lizards.

Which one am I?

356 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:01pm

re: #349 psyop

I don't think the reactions to that post were too terrible. Although it's clear some people will be put off by the truth. Not sure if this newbie is one of those, but time will tell.

357 Freddybear  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:14pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

It would be dishonest to deny that ID is creationism. Sufficient evidence for the link can be found in the "Wedge Document" and in the transcripts of the Dover PA trial.

If you want proof that random mutations and selection can produce novel structures, you need look no further than the subject of Genetic Algorithms in computer science.

358 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:43pm

re: #351 shanec99

Real lizards never disagree


?!?! Holy Cow!

359 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:47pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

I am a Christian, and also an engineer by degree. If you know anything about engineering education, there is a tremendous amount of science that goes into that. ;>

That combined perspective gives me a somewhat unique look at this debate. I read some evolutionists that say 'I believe in evolution'. As a Christian, that sounds like faith to me. As a person fully grounded in scientific education, I don't want science classes teaching faith, whether it be ID or evolution......................................... .......

Anyone with me?

360 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:47pm

re: #344 VegasRick

Could happen just like THAT (snaps fingers) Spring, Summer, Winter or Fall. Who made the seasons anyway?

Same person who designed 5 ' 1" girls who weigh 110 pounds with 38DDs?

Now that is really intelligent design.

Gotta put the wine away.

361 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:53:52pm

re: #353 Mike in Georgia

Didn't read the article but do you suppose $140 might have
something to do with prices rising? Just a stab in the dark.

More focus on the diversion of the food stream into fuels. Increase competition for food sources, prices go up.

362 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:54:04pm

Pink Floyd

SORROW,
R

363 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:54:44pm

re: #347 shanec99

Yep... that is scientific ID that I would recommend they teach in school.


True story. I used to know a guy who sold breast implants to plastic surgeons.
We would be in a bar & if someone asked him what he did for a living, without missing a beat he would say, "I sell tits"
You can imagine the scepticism. He would go out to the car & bring in his display case.
Next thing you know there would be a couple od dozen on the bar. Hours of entertainment!

364 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:54:54pm

re: #215 hoisted

First off, I'm an "old-Earth" creationist. The first piece of evidence that comes to mind for me is the problem of convergence (unrelated organisms possessing nearly identical anatomical, physiological, behavioral, and biochemical characteristics). It's much more common than would be expected when unrelated organisms "evolve" separately. It's the idea of, "if one could rewind the evolutionary tape and start over again and again, one would expect a different outcome each time." What we find, however, is something commonly entirely different. Here is a good read on this subject: [Link: www.reasons.org...]

Sal: Actually, the fact that several different species can independently evolve similar mechanisms that possess survival value within their environments, such as the eyes of eagles, houseflies, and octopi, is an indication of just how robust evolutionary pressures and species adaptations in response to them can be.

The recently-touted e coli long-term experiment is a good example. Lenski was able to reproduce his results (the ability to metabolize citrate) only when starting with the generation one step away from this mutation. Going back any further failed to reproduce the results. I believe there is a longer discussion of this here: [Link: www.oneplace.com...]

Sal: What this proves is not only that we now have a repeatable-at-will-under-controlled-laboratory-con ditions example of macroevolution (since no other e. coli can metabolize citric acid), but also that it had to involve the aggregate synergy of multiple mutations.

As I said, I'm am "old-Earth/old-universe" creationist. Bad science (i.e. the universe is 6000 years old) has no place in public school. However, the issue just described, the acrimony between strict adherents to gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, etc., should be required teaching. The idea that macro-evolution is a fait accompli is absurd.

Sal: One proof that macroevolution is a fait accompli sits in Lenski's laboratory; another resides in all of our genes; the massive numbers of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences inhabiting identical positions in the genomes of genetically related yet distinct species.

In any case, the best arguments IMO for a Creator are found in Physics/Astrophysics and I'd be happy to get into with anyone who isn't too sick of this topic already.

Sal: The Anthropic Principle and the Observation Selection Effect tend to defenestrate the cosmically based contentions.

365 jorline  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:55:23pm

re: #285 jcm

Explain the evolution of this...

JMC, don't be silly...those are acorns she's storing for the winter.

366 JohnnyReb  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:56:00pm

re: #351 shanec99

Real lizards never disagree.

Only sock puppets, Kos kids, CAIR supporters and other subversives disagree with lizards.


Wow, I didn't realize that I had to agree with everything said on here to be not a Kos kid or a sock puppet......Color me suprised.

And no, I don't agree with everything said on here. Sorry but you can't put me in a tiny little box.

367 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:56:13pm

re: #355 VegasRick

Which one am I?

Do you believe that a woman with firm, perky, 38DDs is sexy?

If you say yes, then I will say great minds think alike.

368 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:56:14pm

re: #361 jcm

$5 a gallon diesel will run it up quicker. It has to be
delivered.

369 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:56:59pm

re: #367 shanec99

Do you believe that a woman with firm, perky, 38DDs is sexy?

If you say yes, then I will say great minds think alike.

Yea baby!

370 Roentgen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:57:04pm

re: #330 jcm

That was hilarious! Some of the youtube links around here are just a play on the words of song lyrics vis-a-vis somebody's post. You are on whole new level. We are blessed to have you and Rawmuse--both with brilliant senses of humor, better than that in most paid publications, and worth hanging around for on any post.

371 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:58:17pm

re: #359 Naso Tang

I believe in Ohm's Law. Is that faith?

372 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:58:43pm

re: #366 JohnnyReb

If you dont agree with me you are a subversive.

ps I have had my 4th glass of wine in the last hiour... forgive me.

373 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:58:52pm

re: #365 jorline

JMC, don't be silly...those are acorns she's storing for the winter.

Maybe Huckabee will try to put her in his popcorn popper.

374 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:58:57pm

re: #354 jcm

I was talking with a broker friend who said a lot of these green companies, especially solar, have lost 50% of their stock value.

Carbon credits - a false economy.

375 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:59:19pm

re: #369 VegasRick

Yea baby!

See, you are a lizard. You did not disagree.

376 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:59:22pm

re: #4 Fried Spam

....................................
I am a Christian, and also an engineer by degree. If you know anything about engineering education, there is a tremendous amount of science that goes into that. ;>

That combined perspective gives me a somewhat unique look at this debate. I read some evolutionists that say 'I believe in evolution'. As a Christian, that sounds like faith to me. As a person fully grounded in scientific education, I don't want science classes teaching faith, whether it be ID or evolution.

......................................
Anyone with me?

Ooopsy. Sorry about that finger spasm and earlier post.

I just wanted to say that I too am an engineer by degree, and more after that, and you have limited your knowledge to bridges or power lines. When your entire argument is based on the statement that evolution is faith, then you fail the engineering test for rationality.

377 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:59:23pm

re: #371 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I believe in Ohm's Law. Is that faith?


How about Murhys Law.
Or Scwartz Law, 'Murphy was an optimist."

378 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 4:59:40pm

re: #348 pre-Boomer Marine brat

LOL !

379 jorline  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:00:38pm

re: #288 debutaunt

Show us yer abs, shane.

My abs have been absent for some time now.

380 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:01:26pm

re: #371 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I believe in Ohm's Law. Is that faith?

About as much as I expect it to be daylight when I, hopefully, wake up tomorrow morning.

381 Mike in Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:01:38pm

re: #371 pre-Boomer Marine brat

got any more shocking relations?

382 debutaunt  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:01:39pm

re: #379 jorline

My abs have been absent for some time now.

Not a chance in hell of turning this into an ab thread.

383 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:02:34pm

re: #376 Naso Tang

In that case, re-direct my #371.

384 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:02:43pm

re: #382 debutaunt

Yeah- not often does a thread turn into an objectifying of men.

385 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:02:57pm

re: #374 MacGregor

I was talking with a broker friend who said a lot of these green companies, especially solar, have lost 50% of their stock value.

Carbon credits - a false economy.

Carbon credits, feel good green fuels which are net energy looses.

My company has a big stake in solar cells, that division thinks it will be able to sell panels at grid equity for the sun belt in a couple years. Meaning the cost of setting up a solar system will cost the same per KW as buying off the grid. That's a huge milestone.

All private, no subsidies.

386 Metal Man  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:02pm

re: #368 Mike in Georgia

$5 a gallon diesel will run it up quicker. It has to be
delivered.

The price of commodities are driven more by demand than the cost to produce or deliver them. Talk to any farmer who has had to sell a crop at less than it cost to produce it.

387 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:03pm

re: #377 opnion

How about Murhys Law.
Or Scwartz Law, 'Murphy was an optimist."

I am shocked that you believe in Ohms law. Pure fallacy.

I will resist such subversive ideas with all my strength even if I am made to feel like a fish swimming against the current.

388 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:14pm

re: #382 debutaunt

Not a chance in hell of turning this into an ab thread.

Muscle on in, deb!

389 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:46pm

re: #379 jorline

My abs have been absent for some time now.

I have furniture movers disease.
My chest dropped into my drawers.

390 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:03:48pm

re: #371 pre-Boomer Marine brat


An example of Darwin?

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com...]

MWAH!

391 mama winger  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:04:06pm

re: #219 FurryOldGuyJeans

The thing is that ID being taught as science has entered the political realm now. It can end up being just as corrosive to the Great American Experiment as Radical Islam is now. Must we have a September 10th attitude to yet another growing danger?

I can't speak directly for Charles but I divine that he sees the two to be kindred spirits in what they want to achieve, the destruction of America.

Yes, all us Lutherans have our potluck casseroles at the ready, looking for our opportunity to destroy America . Death by Hot Dish Ackbar! .

392 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:04:17pm

re: #380 Naso Tang

About as much as I expect it to be daylight when I, hopefully, wake up tomorrow morning.

Sorry, apparently should have been directed at #4 Fried Spam.

393 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:04:53pm

re: #382 debutaunt

Not a chance in hell of turning this into an ab thread.


Nope this is a boob thread.

Wanna flash me your boobs?

ps conscience to shane... lay off the wine before logging on to LGF.

394 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:05:29pm

re: #390 goddessoftheclassroom

An example of Darwin?

[Link: icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com.. .]

MWAH!

My favorite cat picture.
Great Expectations.

395 opnion  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:05:58pm

re: #393 shanec99

Nope this is a boob thread.

Wanna flash me your boobs?

ps conscience to shane... lay off the wine before logging on to LGF.


Sir, may I pour you another glass?

396 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:06:05pm

Eh. I agree that most of what he says is almost certainly true, but I'm afraid he overstates the formal strength of what is known, and while the science is nicely presented, I don't think he really advances anyone's arguments. Just as a nit:

Water is one of the most common compounds in the universe.

Well, no it's not, H and He make up like 99% of matter IIRC, and that's not even counting dark matter and dark energy! What I suppose he means is that it seems ubiquitous, spectrographs find it in every region of space where we can look, and we are much more interested in those places it occurs than in vast areas (like inside of stars!) where it does not!

And, can it (any OOL theory) even *be* proven? Not easily. Even if you can create simple cells in a test tube from nothing but a small box of simple ingredients, it may be impossible to distinguish the case where the origin of life happened ten billion years ago 50,000 light years away and we came from some kind of panspermia, from the case that there are millions of Earth-like worlds in the Milky Way galaxy alone, and that life spontaneously evolves on most of them, given a quiet billion years or so.

[more ranting by me deleted]

397 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:06:13pm

WASP -Donnington '92

CHAINSAW CHARLIE,
R

398 MacGregor  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:06:39pm

re: #385 jcm

That's good to hear! Hope it goes well for you.

399 pre-Boomer's SockPuppy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:06:52pm

re: #390 goddessoftheclassroom

arf arf arf
arf
arf arf arf arf arf
arf arf arf
arf

400 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:07:11pm

re: #384 Sharmuta

Yeah- not often does a thread turn into an objectifying of men.

Well do you want me to discuss schlongs?

Would not be very interesting.

401 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:07:28pm

re: #395 opnion

Sir, may I pour you another glass?

heh heh

402 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:07:32pm

re: #331 Salamantis

Sal: Smells suspiciously like what we heard from the supporters of Vlaams Belang to me. Yeah, there's rottenness around, but it's in the Vlaams and in the Disco Institute, and I have the distinct feeling that Charles will continue to canaryblog the coal mines for such rotting idiotarian timbers.

Every thread has it's versions. Don't upset the applecart. Don't contradict the contrarians. Don't appear to have disagreement. Support the Christian cause against Islam. Nothing else matters.

403 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:08:19pm

Mere breast measurement is hardly an indicator of sexiness.

RANDOM
MEDIA
PLAYER,
R

404 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:08:40pm

re: #400 shanec99

No- I want to discuss the topic.

405 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:09:37pm

re: #394 jcm

My favorite cat picture.
Great Expectations.

What Chutzpah!

406 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:10:00pm

Was there someone else out there?

407 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:10:16pm

re: #392 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Sorry, apparently should have been directed at #4 Fried Spam.

My mistake. I hit the wrong key instead of typing my response.

408 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:10:21pm

re: #403 Render

Mere breast measurement is hardly an indicator of sexiness.

RANDOM
MEDIA
PLAYER,
R

Says who...?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Although I must say some men find pirates attractive (pirates are wimmens with buried chests).

409 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:11:19pm

re: #404 Sharmuta

No- I want to discuss the topic.

Then discuss away my dear,
I will not do anything to hinder your efforts.

410 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:11:50pm

uh oh, I think goddess is preparing some sort of Doomsday Weapon.

411 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:11:51pm

re: #384 Sharmuta

Yeah- not often does a thread turn into an objectifying of men.

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Miss Trixie oh so many threads ago; please feel free to objectify me as much as you like, I may even enjoy it.

412 itellu3times  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:12:37pm

re: #396 itellu3times

Eh. I agree that most of what he says is almost certainly true, but I'm afraid he overstates the formal strength of what is known, and while the science is nicely presented, I don't think he really advances anyone's arguments. Just as a nit:

Water is one of the most common compounds in the universe.

Well, no it's not, H and He make up like 99% of matter IIRC, and that's not even counting dark matter and dark energy!

OK, OK, he said "compounds", so what more common compounds are there? Hmm, well, some of the H is atomic or ionized, and is H2 even a "compound"? OK, maybe H2O is one of the most common "compounds". What are the others, CN radicals, ammonia NH3, CO? Whatever.

413 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:12:56pm

re: #411 Slumbering Behemoth

I'll say the same thing to you that I said to Miss Trixie oh so many threads ago; please feel free to objectify me as much as you like, I may even enjoy it.

heh heh... gotta go to the basement to get nother bottle of Merlot out.

414 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:13:00pm

re: #410 pre-Boomer Marine brat

uh oh, I think goddess is preparing some sort of Doomsday Weapon.

Why would you think that? My patented Goddess Glare is effective enough for me!

415 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:13:07pm

Vangelis

BLUSH RESPONSE,
R

416 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:13:44pm

re: #403 Render

I concur. I like many different kinds, and they are most certainly not all the same size. The ones I like, that is.

*back to doing stuffs*

417 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:13:44pm

re: #334 ContraJihadi

Certainly, the doctrines of repentance and forgiveness have nothing to fear from scientific inquiry. It is not even clear that the scientific method even applies to them.

I think life is a bit more interlinked and has few truly discrete categories. However there are things, such as faith or pain that are very hard or impossible to empirically test. If Christianity, or whatever faith, is real, then it has nothing to fear from scientific inquiry into reality. Fear of science implies fear that your belief system won't stand up under scrutiny.

I think these politicized Intelligent Design/Creationist people are actually doing themselves a disservice. Presuming they are Christians, they are acting deceitfully to try to get theism taught in school. They are presumably trying to convince people to believe as they do by depending on a very weak, subjective argument that doesn't even contain any of the basic tenants of their faith save: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth... ." But then they don't even define the deity, the god they are referring to—He/she/it could be Vishnu or Ahura Mazda as easily as any other. They know they can't actually say anything deeper without getting into trouble over the Establishment Clause.

It's both poor science and poor religion.

418 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:13:53pm

Holy, moly.

No smoking in ammo dumps people.Explosions in a military storehouse woke up the Bulgarian capital city of Sofia around 6:30 AM EEST. Police, ambulances and Civil defense arrived at the scene.

According to general Zlatan Stoikov, speaking for the Bulgarian National Radio, the military base in Chelopechene is currently inaccessible and under closing down. "There are 1494 tons of explosives stored in the Chelopechane base", said the Minister of Defence Nikolai Tsonev, according to "Focus" Agency.

419 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:14:06pm

Who ate my Oreos? :(

This is an outrage!

420 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:14:13pm

re: #414 goddessoftheclassroom

Why would you think that? My patented Goddess Glare is effective enough for me!

Did you notice anything, just up-thread?

/or was my plot all for naught?

421 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:15:53pm

re: #419 wolfie

Who ate my Oreos? :(

This is an outrage!

*munch* *munch*

whaaaaa?

422 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:16:52pm

re: #420 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Did you notice anything, just up-thread?

/or was my plot all for naught?

Were the "arfs" of your #399 supposed to form a picture? I thought maybe they were, but I can't tell what it is. :(

423 abolitionist  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:16:59pm

re: #387 shanec99

I am shocked that you believe in Ohms law. Pure fallacy.

I will resist such subversive ideas with all my strength even if I am made to feel like a fish swimming against the current.

Your comment has potential.

424 Ma Sands  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:17:04pm

re: #219 FurryOldGuyJeans

The thing is that ID being taught as science has entered the political realm now. It can end up being just as corrosive to the Great American Experiment as Radical Islam is now. Must we have a September 10th attitude to yet another growing danger?

I can't speak directly for Charles but I divine that he sees the two to be kindred spirits in what they want to achieve, the destruction of America.


And the sad thing is that so many, to the end, will hold to that silliness...

425 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:17:05pm

re: #416 Slumbering Behemoth
I gotta quit for tonight folks... I cant concentrate on anything... I feel like a bad kid in chemistry class, making hydrogen sulphide and slipping it under Mrs. Harle's (my high school chistry teacher) desk.

I was a real reprobate in chemistry class, ...

426 Roentgen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:17:45pm

re: #371 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I believe in Ohm's Law. Is that faith?

Yes. It is anchored in resistance.

427 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:18:03pm

re: #408 shanec99

Said I...

And with with just two words of horror I rest my case.

Rosie O'Donnell.

GODWIN
VARIATION,
R

428 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:18:14pm

re: #421 jcm

My lawyer will be contacting you shortly!

429 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:18:28pm

re: #422 goddessoftheclassroom

Were the "arfs" of your #399 supposed to form a picture? I thought maybe they were, but I can't tell what it is. :(

Study the title-bar ... study it very closely, word-for-word ... and the avatar as well.

430 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:19:00pm

re: #417 David IV of Georgia

I think these politicized Intelligent Design/Creationist people are actually doing themselves a disservice. Presuming they are Christians, they are acting deceitfully to try to get theism taught in school. They are presumably trying to convince people to believe as they do by depending on a very weak, subjective argument that doesn't even contain any of the basic tenants of their faith save: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth... ." But then they don't even define the deity, the god they are referring to—He/she/it could be Vishnu or Ahura Mazda as easily as any other. They know they can't actually say anything deeper without getting into trouble over the Establishment Clause.

This is one of the points made by the author of Saving Darwin. The Christian belief in God has more to do with Love and Forgiveness than Him being a Designer. Do they really want to limit God in this way or is there a better method for them to follow in sharing Jesus' message? It's a disservice, indeed.

431 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:19:03pm

re: #423 abolitionist

Your comment has potential.

Only is the gradient is sufficient to allow the flow of electrons.

432 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:19:42pm

re: #426 Roentgen

Yes. It is anchored in resistance.

But is ALWAYS current.

433 rawmuse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:19:52pm

What did I miss? Any trolls get whacked?
Damn nice day here.

434 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:20:05pm

re: #426 Roentgen

Yes. It is anchored in resistance.

Resistance is futile.

435 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:20:12pm

Sisters of Mercy

FLOOD I,
R

436 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:20:29pm

re: #428 wolfie

My lawyer will be contacting you shortly!

*gulp*

You have no evidence!

437 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:20:30pm

Whatever induced you to believe Ohm's law? Was it the current fad? Did some powerful argument convince you? Or was there some magnetism or charm involved?

438 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:20:46pm

re: #432 pre-Boomer Marine brat


But is ALWAYS current.

Watt the hell are you guys talking about?

439 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:21:22pm

re: #427 Render

Said I...

And with with just two words of horror I rest my case.

Rosie O'Donnell.

GODWIN
VARIATION,
R

She does not have DDs, she may be 38 around (all fat) but those are not DDs.

440 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:21:51pm

re: #436 jcm

Dang! :(

441 Roentgen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:22:01pm

re: #427 Render

Said I...

And with with just two words of horror I rest my case.

Rosie O'Donnell.

GODWIN
VARIATION,
R

Spoken together, those two words are not only horrific, they are pornographic, profane.

442 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:22:21pm

re: #433 rawmuse

What did I miss? Any trolls get whacked?
Damn nice day here.

Careful. Watch your step there.

WET CLEANUP ON AISLE 12 !

443 S.P.E.C.T.R.E.  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:22:41pm

We get it. We came from apes. Good night and good luck.

444 rawmuse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:22:50pm

re: #442 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Dang. troll gutz, again.

445 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:23:03pm

re: #438 Slumbering Behemoth

Watt the hell are you guys talking about?

Running puns regarding Ohm's Law.

446 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:23:12pm

re: #441 Roentgen

Spoken together, those two words are not only horrific, they are pornographic, profane.


Rosie and porn should not be used in the same sentence... it could give me night mares.

447 OrdellRobbie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:23:39pm

re: #295 Tigger2005

What I'm seeing here is a misunderstanding of evolution. The statement "If one could rewind the evolutionary tape and start over again nd again, one would expect a different outcome each time" is not really part of evolutionary theory, it's just a statement about evolution, and I think you are misunderstanding it.

Convergent evolution is not at all surprising to those who study evolution. Actually, it's quite expected. If something WORKS in a given environment, why would we not expect to see it over and over again in somewhat different forms...wings for example? Evolution can only work with what it has, but nevertheless it's not surprising that creatures that occupy the same niches sometimes end up sharing similar characteristics, no matter how distantly related they may be. Compare the body lines of dolphins, which evolved from land mammals, to those of a shark. Is this really surprising? How does it pose any problems for evolution?

I think your misunderstanding is that you think this statement means evolution should "come up" with entirely new ways of doing the same thing more often. I don't know your source for the statement, but I think the meaning was somewhat different. Whoever said it probably meant we wouldn't have quite the same mix of creatures we have today, and they wouldn't look quite the same (perhaps you might even have a world where dinosaurs never got wiped out or where mammals were always on top). But I think you would still see many of the same "anatomical, physiological, behavioral, and biochemical characteristics." the possibilities are vast, but hardly unlimited.

But neo-Darwinian theory rests upon random mutation to create the organs. There needs to be not just one, but hundreds, if not thousands, of mutations which much occur in the correct order and be selected for to produce a wing, for instance. The odds that the exact same series of strictly random mutations would occur to produce the marsupial wolf and the placental wolf which are identical in all respects except for the marsupial pouch and which evolved from different ancestors is simply too far fetched. And there are many other such examples. This appears to argue for some active latent capacity in DNA to create structures which i then argues for a design.

448 THELAZYC  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:23:49pm

re: #391 mama winger

Yes, all us Lutherans have our potluck casseroles at the ready, looking for our opportunity to destroy America . Death by Hot Dish Ackbar! .

My church did our part to destroy America yesterday by dispensing FREE cold water and lemonade at our local July 4th celebration.

449 Roentgen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:23:50pm

re: #433 rawmuse

What did I miss? Any trolls get whacked?
Damn nice day here.

Yes. Your way with words was saluted above.

450 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:24:16pm

re: #438 Slumbering Behemoth

Watt the hell are you guys talking about?

Don't change the subject to Volts and Ampheres.

Next we'll be discussing how pounds don't measure mass and grams don't measure weight.

451 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:24:38pm

re: #445 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #438 Slumbering Behemoth

Watt the hell are you guys talking about?

Running puns regarding Ohm's Law.

DAMN, Slumbering ... I just saw it ... you GOT me!

452 rawmuse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:24:54pm

What I really want to know is if we ever figured out why the hell men have nipples?

453 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:25:40pm

re: #450 David IV of Georgia

Don't change the subject to Volts and Ampheres.

Next we'll be discussing how pounds don't measure mass and grams don't measure weight.

Naah... wont do mass... prefer acceleration and momentum.

454 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:26:09pm

re: #452 rawmuse

What I really want to know is if we ever figured out why the hell men have nipples?

This was not the Theory of Evolution I knew.

455 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:26:45pm

re: #293 OrdellRobbie

Newbie here - I keep seeing the same fallacies repeated regarding what ID is. Intelligent Design is NOT synonymous with Creationism. The fact that Creationists fall under the umbrella of Intelligent Design does not mean that all who believe in ID are Creationists. Intelligent design merely states that Random Mutation and Natural Selection, which are the two forces that drive Darwinian evolution are not capable of creating life nor of creating species and new organs and that there is evidence of design manifest in evolution.
>
Sal: And not only is there absolutely no empirical evidence for the assertion that random mutation and (nonrandom) natural selection are incapable of creating species and new organs, the means by which it has done so are well known in many cases. And there is not a single shred of empirical evidence for the existence of any nonnatural (intelligent, outside of the evolutionary process) design in evolution.
>
To keep conflating Intelligent Design with Creationism is a neat rhetorical trick but it is intellectually dishonest.
>
Sal: What was intellectually dishonest was for the Disco Institute to come up with the PR propaganda name intelligent design for creationism, so they could try to sneak it into public high school science classes under false pretenses.
>
I believe in Evolution; that is change over time and the transition of one species into another. However, I believe that the mechanisms of random mutation and natural selection cannot account for it.
>
Sal: Science is not a matter of belief; it is a matter of acknowledging either the presence or the absence of empirical evidence for various contentions.
>
There is evidence of active adaptation, for instance, people in the Andes developing greater capacity to breathe in the thin air.
>
Everyone who lives at a high elevation for a while develops such an ability, as one's body produces more red blood cells so that a greater percentage of the thin air's oxygen can be absorbed when the blood in the capillaries washes over the pulmonary alveoli.
>
These folks develop structural changes that are reflected in changes in their DNA. The problem has been the fact that the reproductive cells do not change. However, mechanisms for this change being carried into reproductive cells exist including viruses. The point is, that adaptive traits being passed on to offspring could result from mechanisms other than random mutation and natural selection.
>
Now you're just trying to push Lamarckism.
>
ID would posit that the capacity to adapt to environmental stressors is designed into DNA. To see the shortcomings of Darwin is not necessarily to reject Evolution.


>
Sal: That's just the problem; positing deific intervention is what religion does, not science. Principles follow the evidence; no positing (assuming) allowed.

456 transient  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:26:45pm

At this point I am almost tempted to join the folks whinging about the frequency of evo/ID threads...but only because I find them so interesting I am distracted from doing the many things I ought to be doing.

But that's my problem.

Keep it up, Charles!

457 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:26:52pm

Goddess?!?!?!

458 David IV of Georgia  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:27:22pm

re: #430 Sharmuta

This is one of the points made by the author of Saving Darwin. The Christian belief in God has more to do with Love and Forgiveness than Him being a Designer. Do they really want to limit God in this way or is there a better method for them to follow in sharing Jesus' message? It's a disservice, indeed.

The best argument for any religion is "Come and see." But if you are the example then you actually have to live up to the standards of your religion.

459 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:27:32pm

re: #452 rawmuse

What I really want to know is if we ever figured out why the hell men have nipples?

HaHa!

Made you ask!
/God

460 abolitionist  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:27:34pm

re: #452 rawmuse

What I really want to know is if we ever figured out why the hell men have nipples?

So we'll have nipple envy ?

461 Killian Bundy  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:27:57pm

Okay, back from a lovely nap.

Where were we?

/have the Christian hordes sacked the government yet?

462 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:27:59pm

re: #445 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Running puns regarding Ohm's Law.

Ah, so my Watt pun doesn't fit 'cuz it's not part of Ohm's Law, eh? How elitist of you. Joule let me know when you stop being such a closed-minded thug, right?

//I really must get back to my stuffs, they need doing

463 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:28:00pm

re: #451 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DAMN, Slumbering ... I just saw it ... you GOT me!

Physics teacher was from Scotland... he used to say :"with a fixed voltage the smaler the current... the greater the resistance."

You can guess how the adolescent boys modified that statement.

464 OrdellRobbie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:28:01pm

re: #303 Wendya

It's intellectually dishonest to pretend ID wasn't packaged and delivered by the same people who were previously pimping creationism.

I don't care who you can associate with the theory. The theory either will stand or fall on its own merits. The fact that there have been many dishonest Darwinists who have forged evidence (Java Man, Piltdown Man, Ernst Haekel's "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," etc.) is interesting and amusing, but it does not by itself invalidate the theory. To keep bringing up the Discovery Institute is a distraction.

465 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:28:41pm

re: #452 rawmuse

What I really want to know is if we ever figured out why the hell men have nipples?

To satisfy gay men?

466 Killgore Trout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:28:56pm
467 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:29:06pm

re: #356 Sharmuta

I don't think the reactions to that post were too terrible. Although it's clear some people will be put off by the truth. Not sure if this newbie is one of those, but time will tell.

If someone is truly interested in arriving at the truth via debate/discussion then they will be back. If they just want to moby, then please let them stay away.

I say that because I was, without a lot of knowledge, on the side of the ID people....didn't know about DI even though they are just a bit north of me. Looking here at a lot of the prior threads and reading a lot of the links in those prior threads before I started commenting here sure showed me just how lacking my understanding and knowledge of the issues really was. Ignorant I might have been, but I hope I wasn't stupid. ;)

468 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:29:13pm

re: #452 rawmuse

Because women like to push buttons...

SPECIESLY,
R

469 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:29:34pm

re: #466 Killgore Trout
Cuz gay men need loovin too?

470 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:30:12pm

re: #417 David IV of Georgia


I think these politicized Intelligent Design/Creationist people are actually doing themselves a disservice. Presuming they are Christians, they are acting deceitfully to try to get theism taught in school...

The operational word is "deceitfully." If the kind of God that these people promote should indeed exist, He has consigned a special place in hell for hypocrites who use His Name in deceit. I can see them now twisting in exquisite torture in one of Dore's portrayals of Dante's Inferno.

471 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:31:32pm

Tori Amos

CRUCIFY,
R

472 ec marm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:32:20pm

Freshwater on FNC...

473 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:33:01pm

re: #467 FurryOldGuyJeans

Well- I was ignorant at first, but I had some help in seeing what the issue was. From there, I started reading more on this topic, and I'm really grateful for the education.

474 Karridine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:33:09pm

re: #1 soccerdad

I don't understand Charles' obsession with this topic. give it a rest.

Charles and other commenters here are very committed to clear thought, freedom of thought, rational discourse, courteous dialogue and responsible policy based on these.

'...this topic...' keeps coming up precisely because it is a good example of ignorance posing as knowledge, falsehood posing as truth and wrong posing as right.

I am NOT authorized to speak on behalf of Charles or any others here, but I daresay their personal, public and very real commitment to truth, justice and the American Way will never waver, never weaken and will never 'give it a rest', at least in part because the ignorance purveyors NEVER 'give it a rest', in their efforts to foist THEIR agenda on us, Soccerdad!

475 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:33:22pm

re: #463 shanec99

Physics teacher was from Scotland... he used to say :"with a fixed voltage the smaler the current... the greater the resistance."

You can guess how the adolescent boys modified that statement.

The adolescent boys were probably focused on some variant of a diagram of Kirchoff's Law -- currents going through a circuit node.

/gotta get your mind down in the gutter to get it

476 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:33:37pm
re: #54 natemannq
re: #49 Sharmuta

It would seem your mind is made up, Mr. Gore.

I wouldn't know which I'd find more insulting, the fact that he didn't remember my name, or the fact that he can't figure out my gender.

}:)     [As always, I find your posts, Sharmuta, to be spot-on.]

477 Roentgen  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:33:40pm

re: #452 rawmuse

What I really want to know is if we ever figured out why the hell men have nipples?

Supernumerary nipples are not all that uncommon, but are variable in size and location, usually situated in the breast near the typical location. Rarely, they can occur on a person's back. I have imagined that slow-dancing with a women so endowed would be interesting.

478 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:33:41pm

re: #469 shanec99

Cuz gay men need loovin too?

Remember the Ironfist rule.

479 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:33:51pm

re: #473 Sharmuta

Well- I was ignorant at first, but I had some help in seeing what the issue was. From there, I started reading more on this topic, and I'm really grateful for the education.

So we did not distract you... darn I failed miserably.

480 jcm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:34:11pm

Moonbats on the loose at GWB's 4th of July speech.

481 goddessoftheclassroom  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:34:53pm

re: #429 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Study the title-bar ... study it very closely, word-for-word ... and the avatar as well.

I'm so confused...

482 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:35:19pm

re: #475 pre-Boomer Marine brat
lol... brilliant dear Sir... absolutely brilliant (with an English accent).

483 OrdellRobbie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:35:24pm

re: #316 reine.de.tout

Newbie - you need to go back, read the old threads, look at the Wedge Strategy, look at the Discovery Institute,, read the Wedge Document, then come back.

Read it all a long time ago. So what? A theory stands or falls on its own merits. Man-made Global warming isn't junk science because AlGore is involved with it, it is junk science because the figures don't hold up. Darwin's theory will not stand or fall because of the characters of the people who espouse the belief.

484 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:35:24pm

re: #476 Kulhwch

Heck- after littleO's insulting comment yesterday- that was nuthin'. ;)

485 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:37:00pm

Machines of Loving Grace

GOLGATHA TENAMENT BLUES,
R

486 hazzyday  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:37:22pm

I think where ID goes wrong is in it's lack of support for evolution. Where scientists go wrong is that they discount the idea that evolution was created. They say creationism is not testable but it is.

Specifically people should be cautious in supporting something like the Discovery Institute. If these same people lived in Saudi Arabia they would be radical wahhabi Imams that we see on Memri TV. They are exactly the same type of personality. Behe seems more quack then scientist. One of those very smart people who gave up on thinking and latched onto a failing idea. As soon as he admits his irreducible complexity argument was a bad idea all around, he can get on to some real science.

ID folks drew a line in the sand and are now finding themselves being beaten back in courts. I don't think God is on their side.

Given that government is growing huge in size and effect and work. I think it unwise to throw the "separation of church and state" idea around on a local level like this. We need a better alternative. Governments today are cloning the works of churches and recycling those thoughts into social programs. There does need to be an effect to get the government out of the way, reduce it's size, remove it's social engineering dictum's and transfer that work back into the area of religion. The government at all levels is actively restricting the work of churches and looking to assume those roles. Your next God could be the Gorical.

487 ec marm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:37:29pm

The science teacher that was alleged to have branded a cross on a students forearm is on FNC right now. He seems a tad strange...

488 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:37:44pm

re: #480 jcm

Moonbats on the loose at GWB's 4th of July speech.

Typical moon bats. Disruptive, noncontributing nincompoops.

489 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:38:44pm

re: #479 shanec99

So we did not distract you... darn I failed miserably.

You have to get up pretty early in the morning to distract Sharmuta. She has Argus eyes, and none of us is Hermes. ... Or are they Bette Davis eyes?

490 Freddybear  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:39:09pm

re: #483 OrdellRobbie

Read it all a long time ago. So what? A theory stands or falls on its own merits. Man-made Global warming isn't junk science because AlGore is involved with it, it is junk science because the figures don't hold up. Darwin's theory will not stand or fall because of the characters of the people who espouse the belief.

When ID has some testable hypotheses that haven't already been demolished, and when it does more than make objections to "Darwinism" that have all been refuted, then maybe it might qualify as a theory. But until then, there is no basis for calling it anything but what it is: a transparent attempt by Creationists to shove their beliefs into science classes.

491 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:39:11pm

re: #487 ec marm

I thought strange was a job requirement for high school science teachers...

NO
NAMES
MENTIONED,
R

492 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:39:20pm

re: #365 jorline

JMC, don't be silly...those are acorns she's storing for the winter.

Remind me to avoid that oak tree...

493 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:39:35pm

re: #481 goddessoftheclassroom

I'm so confused...

My #399 was posted by "pre-Boomer's SockPuppy". The avatar has only one of the three stars.

I registered the sock only this afternoon. I was laying in wait for you!

MMMMMMMMMWAH !

/sheesh! dumb cats!
*duck*

494 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:39:43pm

re: #489 ContraJihadi

You have to get up pretty early in the morning to distract Sharmuta. She has Argus eyes, and none of us is Hermes. ... Or are they Bette Davis eyes?

If I had defined abs I bet I could distract her... but I have a wine belly.

495 Karridine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:40:22pm

re: #464 OrdellRobbie

I don't care who you can associate with the theory. The theory either will stand or fall on its own merits. The fact that there have been many dishonest Darwinists who have forged evidence (Java Man, Piltdown Man, Ernst Haekel's "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," etc.) is interesting and amusing, but it does not by itself invalidate the theory. To keep bringing up the Discovery Institute is a distraction.

Did you WATCH the 2-hour video, Sir? The Discovery Institute and its efforts is NOT 'a distraction', but is indeed central to the issue of teaching this stuff in science classes.

The D.I. does NOT preach science. It was dishonest in its efforts. It brought creationism BACK relabeled (and relabeled poorly in some critical cases) "Intelligent Design"

D.I. may fairly teach religion in religious classes, but NOT in SCIENCE classes, Ordell.

496 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:40:56pm

re: #391 mama winger

Yes, all us Lutherans have our potluck casseroles at the ready, looking for our opportunity to destroy America . Death by Hot Dish Ackbar! .

You said it, I didn't. But I won't stand by while some people want to foist their views of religion upon me; demand I believe their way as being the only true way.

For me ID is not science; it is religion disguised as science, period.

If that offends you, meh.

BTW, you need to take sarcasm lessons.

497 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:40:59pm
498 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:41:15pm

re: #494 shanec99

If I had defined abs I bet I could distract her... but I have a wine belly.

I hear you, my friend. We are fellow sufferers.

499 wolfie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:41:16pm

re: #480 jcm

Moonbats on the loose at GWB's 4th of July speech.

Yep. We were in Charlottesville yesterday and saw some of those clowns (outside the Monticello entrance) packing themselves and their signs into a van.
Wish I had had my camera at the ready!
K-Trout said that Code Pink was involved.....He had a link on a thread this morning.

Embarrassing (for a Wahoo) to see that guy wearing a UVA shirt.

500 jorline  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:41:22pm

re: #492 Salamantis

Remind me to avoid that oak tree...

LOL...could be a tough climb, I would avoid it as well.

501 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:41:47pm

re: #480 jcm

Moonbats on the loose at GWB's 4th of July speech.

Moonbats on the loose,
Exchanging posters,
This one is mispelled,
I'm such a coaster,
I've done so much drugs,
My brain looks like it's been in a toaster,
Please arrest me now,


****finish please

502 OrdellRobbie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:41:51pm

re: #345 psyop

If you believe micro (inter-species) or macro (intra-species) evolution can happen, as apparently you do, then it still only comes down to whether or not you think the universe was created in order to progress a certain way (by an intelligence unknowable by mere mortals), or whether it has happened by chance on this planet (because life happens everywhere in the universe where conditions are right, and we are some of the lucky).

I believe in evolution; I just don't believe in Darwinian evolution. I do not believe that random mutation and natural selection could have produced the various species. Whether or not I believe in an ultimate creator is immaterial to the discussion as well as to the theory of intelligent design which does not specify God as the creator.

503 rawmuse  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:41:59pm

And on that topic (lactating men) I must be off.

Sometimes I have so much fun playing music that I almost feel guilty about accepting payment to do it. Almost.

The way I figure it, they are paying me to dress in the tux, and show up, the rest is free.

Later, Lizards.

504 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:42:01pm

Overkill

GOD LIKE,
R

505 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:43:01pm

re: #492 Salamantis

Remind me to avoid that oak tree...


Well if you are from the back woods and your palate is excited by squirrels, then you might want to hang out by such an oak tree as produced those there acorns.

Can you imagine how well fed those critters would be?

506 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:43:30pm

re: #489 ContraJihadi

I have bluish, greenish, greyish eyes that kind of change color depending on what I'm wearing. I picked them up from a mutant relative. THAT'S evolution!

507 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:43:44pm

re: #497 ploome hineni

Hurt my back. Pain pill posting...

OTHER
WISE,
R

508 Karridine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:43:47pm

re: #477 Roentgen

The extra-normal (supernumerary) nipples grow from the tissue underlying/creating them, after it migrated through the body during fetal development...

Traces of that fetal tissue can be found in the axillae (arm-pits) and many women get itchy armpits when pregnant or lactating.

509 JamesWI  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:44:32pm

re: #495 Karridine

Come on, let's just teach it so the cdesign proponentsists can be happy.

/figured my first post couldn't be too harsh . . .

510 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:45:01pm

re: #502 OrdellRobbie

I believe in evolution; I just don't believe in Darwinian evolution. I do not believe that random mutation and natural selection could have produced the various species. Whether or not I believe in an ultimate creator is immaterial to the discussion as well as to the theory of intelligent design which does not specify God as the creator.

I tend to agree, but I must confess that my objections are aesthetic, and rather akin to the sentiment the underlies why I prefer Bach to the Grateful Dead. But I do confess that I have not applied the full force of whatever intellect I possess to the issue.

511 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:45:02pm

re: #499 wolfie

Yep. We were in Charlottesville yesterday and saw some of those clowns (outside the Monticello entrance) packing themselves and their signs into a van.
Wish I had had my camera at the ready!
K-Trout said that Code Pink was involved.....He had a link on a thread this morning.

Embarrassing (for a Wahoo) to see that guy wearing a UVA shirt.

Code pink does not have sexy boobs... gives bad names to boobs being attractive. They should save the code pinkers for national geographic issues that excite little boys in the library.

512 VegasRick  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:45:18pm

Wait! A new thread! Yea!

513 OrdellRobbie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:46:01pm

re: #349 psyop

Don't be scared off by the reactions to your post. Debate only works if people disagree.

Thanks!

514 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:46:06pm

re: #506 Sharmuta

I have bluish, greenish, greyish eyes that kind of change color depending on what I'm wearing. I picked them up from a mutant relative. THAT'S evolution!


Baby if you batted those lashes at me... I would show you my abs.

515 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:47:21pm

Black Sabbath

SUPERNAUT,
R

516 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:47:29pm

re: #506 Sharmuta

I have bluish, greenish, greyish eyes that kind of change color depending on what I'm wearing. I picked them up from a mutant relative. THAT'S evolution!

Hazel eyes? ... A moment to follow your link.

517 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:47:45pm
518 Render  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:49:45pm

re: #517 ploome hineni

Wrong end of a couch moving operation. We won, but it was a near thing on the steps.

"Ok set it down."

"No, if I put it down it's not coming back up."

WILL,
R

519 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:50:31pm

re: #514 shanec99

Uh- I'm more attracted to a man for his mental capabilities and his ability to appreciate mine.

520 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:50:50pm

re: #516 ContraJihadi

Hazel eyes? ... A moment to follow your link.

Sharmuta, you are just going to have to accept a mild bit of flirting while I croon,

Five foot two,
Eyes of blue,
But oh what those five feet can do.
Has anybody seen my gal?

521 Karridine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:51:06pm

re: #502 OrdellRobbie

"...is immaterial to the discussion as well as to the theory of intelligent design which does not specify God as the creator."


Robbie, if you had watched the NOVA video, you would have learned therein that Discovery Institute DID re-lable 'Creator' as 'Intellingent Designer'

Furthermore, the Intelligent Designer proponents swore under oath that they didn't know about Creationism or who was supplying the "Panda"-ID textbooks... and now face perjury charges because they also stated, in sworn testimony, that they DID know who was providing the books...

They're dishonest, hypocritical and ignorant. I have NO desire to defend them.

522 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:51:08pm

re: #519 Sharmuta

Uh- I'm more attracted to a man for his mental capabilities and his ability to appreciate mine.

huh?!?!

523 ec marm  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:51:08pm

re: #491 Render

I thought strange was a job requirement for high school science teachers...

NO
NAMES
MENTIONED,
R


I was early ed science. Best fun and most enriching experience you can possibly have and still get a pay check. But all the fun is in the classroom. All the nonsense that goes on outside, with other teachers, parents, administrators, parents/teachers associations, is for the birds. Science is science; while being aware of other issues is good in my opinion, it should only be taught to a "dictionary level" of understanding.

524 shanec99  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:51:25pm

re: #519 Sharmuta

Uh- I'm more attracted to a man for his mental capabilities and his ability to appreciate mine.

Darn I struck out again... gotta do suppn about the wine belly.

525 reine.de.tout  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:51:58pm

re: #467 FurryOldGuyJeans

If someone is truly interested in arriving at the truth via debate/discussion then they will be back. If they just want to moby, then please let them stay away.

I say that because I was, without a lot of knowledge, on the side of the ID people....didn't know about DI even though they are just a bit north of me. Looking here at a lot of the prior threads and reading a lot of the links in those prior threads before I started commenting here sure showed me just how lacking my understanding and knowledge of the issues really was. Ignorant I might have been, but I hope I wasn't stupid. ;)

You just described my evolution on this!

526 gman  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:51:59pm

Sharm, natemannq never did get back to you on how to apply the scientific method to ID. I would love to see natemannq's response to your request.

527 Karridine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:52:53pm

re: #509 JamesWI

Come on, let's just teach it so the cdesign proponentsreationists can be happy.

/figured my first post couldn't be too harsh . . .


Rolling
On
Floor,
Laughing! :D

528 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:55:14pm

re: #522 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Crazy, huh?

529 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:55:45pm

re: #526 gman

Sharm, natemannq never did get back to you on how to apply the scientific method to ID. I would love to see natemannq's response to your request.

I'd like to see it to, but I know better than to hold my breath.

530 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:56:23pm

re: #331 Salamantis

canaryblog the coal mines for such rotting idiotarian timbers.

canaryblogging the coal mines for rotting idiotarian timbers

Another rotating title nomination!

531 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:57:04pm

re: #529 Sharmuta

Too- PIMF.

532 eclectic infidel  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:57:30pm

re: #83 Charles

You're much more diplomatic than me. I would call it "absolute hooey."

And you're even more diplomatic than I.

Intelligent Design = religious bullsh*t.

(In honor of the late, great, George Carlin).

533 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 5:59:18pm

re: #528 Sharmuta

Crazy, huh?

(-:
I was trying to inject a self-depreciating comeback.
huh? haw? duh?

I agree with you 110%, from the flip side of the gender divide. Too long a discussion to explain all I mean by that.

534 gman  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:02:12pm

re: #529 Sharmuta

I'd like to see it to, but I know better than to hold my breath.

Oh yeah, natemannq said it was going to call Creation Ministries to raise hell about their connections to radical Islam. nate's got a full plate.

535 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:03:11pm

re: #447 OrdellRobbie

But neo-Darwinian theory rests upon random mutation to create the organs. There needs to be not just one, but hundreds, if not thousands, of mutations which much occur in the correct order and be selected for to produce a wing, for instance. The odds that the exact same series of strictly random mutations would occur to produce the marsupial wolf and the placental wolf which are identical in all respects except for the marsupial pouch and which evolved from different ancestors is simply too far fetched. And there are many other such examples. This appears to argue for some active latent capacity in DNA to create structures which i then argues for a design.

Sal: first of all, the mutations are random, but the natural selection process is nonrandom, as it is comprised of envoronmental pressures. Second of all, just as in the flagellum, what are called interim evolutions themselves typically possess positive selection values, due to them subserving useful functions, often quite unrelated to the functions they subserve later when combined with other mutations. Third, "hundreds if not thousands' is a stretch; the change in just a few codons can produce quite surprising morphological changes.

You need to acquaint yourself with spandrels; some mutations dictate the space in which further mutations are possible, but quite dissimilar spandrels can allow for quite similar subsequent morphologies to emerge, and the genetic bases for those morphologies can be quite dissimilar. Marsupial wolves are only called wolves by linguistic convention; they are, in fact, not wolves, but marsupials, any more than tasmanian tigers are tigers.

The Spandrels of San Marco and the Panglossian Paradigm: A Critique of the Adaptationist Programme
Stephen Jay Gould and Richard C. Lewontin, 1979

[Link: ethomas.web.wesleyan.edu...]

See also "On Growth And Form" by D'Arcy Thompson, 1942

536 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:03:18pm

Sharm, now that we have returned to the subject of mental capabilities: Did I understand correctly that the OOL thesis states that there was a first group of organisms (not an individual) from which all others evolved? If this is so and this genetic species is authochthonic, then it could not itself evolved, correct?

537 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:05:09pm

re: #460 abolitionist

So we'll have nipple envy ?

Did Adam and Eve have navel envy?

538 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:06:44pm

re: #534 gman

I hope he does contact Creation Ministries and reports back. I have a feeling though that he might not like what he finds out there. And I'm suddenly reminded of Planet of the Apes..... Is that ironic?

539 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:09:02pm

re: #464 OrdellRobbie

I don't care who you can associate with the theory. The theory either will stand or fall on its own merits. The fact that there have been many dishonest Darwinists who have forged evidence (Java Man, Piltdown Man, Ernst Haekel's "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," etc.) is interesting and amusing, but it does not by itself invalidate the theory. To keep bringing up the Discovery Institute is a distraction.

Sal: Nuh-uh. Intelligent design, unlike all the things you mention that were subsequently disproven, isn't a theory, for theories are empirically testable, which ID is not, being a religious contention. It has no testable merits on the basis of which it could stand or fall. All it has is a history of having a pr propaganda name created in order to deceive people.

540 Wendya  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:09:45pm

re: #464 OrdellRobbie

I don't care who you can associate with the theory. The theory either will stand or fall on its own merits. The fact that there have been many dishonest Darwinists who have forged evidence (Java Man, Piltdown Man, Ernst Haekel's "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny," etc.) is interesting and amusing, but it does not by itself invalidate the theory. To keep bringing up the Discovery Institute is a distraction.

It should be noted by you (but probably won't be) that science invariably demands verification and corrects its mistakes. It might not be immediate but it always occurs. ID and the creationists who invented the theory are not self correcting. They are only interested in pimping pseudo science in the name of God. For that alone, they should be shunned and turned out in disgrace.

541 OrdellRobbie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:10:14pm

re: #521 Karridine

Robbie, if you had watched the NOVA video, you would have learned therein that Discovery Institute DID re-label 'Creator' as 'Intelligent Designer'

Furthermore, the Intelligent Designer proponents swore under oath that they didn't know about Creationism or who was supplying the "Panda"-ID textbooks... and now face perjury charges because they also stated, in sworn testimony, that they DID know who was providing the books...

They're dishonest, hypocritical and ignorant. I have NO desire to defend them.

Perhaps I should be more clear. I do not give a hoot about the Discovery Institute. I read Behe's and others' books and have read Dempski's articles and have been convinced by the facts and arguments presented. The most powerful argument I found against abiogenesis is the fact that the most primitive cells we know of are too complex to have just popped into existence, and that science has never been able to create proteins under conditions which mirror the earth at the time life arose. The most powerful argument I found against Darwinian evolution is the odds against the correct sequence of purely random mutations occurring precisely when they are needed and being selected for. Something else is at work and for now I will stick with a design. A program is a design. DNA appears designed to create new forms/organs/species.

542 Slumbering Behemoth  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:11:53pm

re: #519 Sharmuta

Uh- I'm more attracted to a man for his mental capabilities and his ability to appreciate mine.

*sigh* The Behemoth has yet another dream shattered.

//Wait, what if I get it half right?

543 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:12:17pm

re: #536 ContraJihadi

There's still a lot in that article I'm trying to understand. I think the larger point was that in discussions with Creationists, it's not the better tactic to claim evolution and OOL are separate or to say there's not research into the matter. I'd guess though that Sala would be able to better answer your question.

544 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:13:06pm

re: #384 Sharmuta

Yeah- not often does a thread turn into an objectifying of men.

Daniel Craig

545 JamesWI  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:15:44pm

re: #541 OrdellRobbie

Perhaps I should be more clear. I do not give a hoot about the Discovery Institute. I read Behe's and others' books and have read Dempski's articles and have been convinced by the facts and arguments presented. The most powerful argument I found against abiogenesis is the fact that the most primitive cells we know of are too complex to have just popped into existence, and that science has never been able to create proteins under conditions which mirror the earth at the time life arose. The most powerful argument I found against Darwinian evolution is the odds against the correct sequence of purely random mutations occurring precisely when they are needed and being selected for. Something else is at work and for now I will stick with a design. A program is a design. DNA appears designed to create new forms/organs/species.

Apparently you didn't watch the NOVA episode embedded in last nights post, where Behe and his arguments are completely destroyed on the stand

546 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:16:39pm

re: #408 shanec99

Says who...?
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Although I must say some men find pirates attractive (pirates are wimmens with buried chests).

Cut it out.

Please.

547 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:18:42pm

re: #543 Sharmuta

There's still a lot in that article I'm trying to understand. I think the larger point was that in discussions with Creationists, it's not the better tactic to claim evolution and OOL are separate or to say there's not research into the matter. I'd guess though that Sala would be able to better answer your question.

Alright, I understand the tactical issue. There seems to be two main campaigns in this whole battle--the narrowly scientific/religious/intellectual, and the political. I suspect it is the latter campaign that explains most of the deceit, vehemence, and intolerance.

I understand the gravity of the situation and the stakes involved, but I hope we do not forget that the jihadis are at the gate!

548 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:19:36pm

re: #483 OrdellRobbie

Read it all a long time ago. So what? A theory stands or falls on its own merits. Man-made Global warming isn't junk science because AlGore is involved with it, it is junk science because the figures don't hold up. Darwin's theory will not stand or fall because of the characters of the people who espouse the belief.

Sal: Nuh-uh. Intelligent design, unlike the global warming hypothesis, isn't science, for scientific assertions are empirically testable, which ID is not, being a religious contention. It has no testable merits on the basis of which it could stand or fall. All it has is a history of having a pr propaganda name created in order to deceive people.

Notice that I did not say that the global warming hypothesis was GOOD science; the fact that the empirical evidence is leading scientists to repudiate it in droves just a few years after it was proposed shows precisely how bad it's science is. But it is still science, because it is testable (which is how it can be that it is being tested and found wanting), unlike ID, which is NOT science at all, but an untestable sectarian religious contention, with not a shred of empirical evidence to recommend it.

549 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:21:59pm

re: #547 ContraJihadi

Liberty has many foes. I see our Constitution as a great shield against them all, but only if we hold it up and defend it.

550 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:23:19pm

re: #486 hazzyday

I think where ID goes wrong is in it's lack of support for evolution. Where scientists go wrong is that they discount the idea that evolution was created. They say creationism is not testable but it is.

Sal: And just how do you propose to go about empirically testing for the presence or absence of a Universe-kickstarting deity?

Specifically people should be cautious in supporting something like the Discovery Institute. If these same people lived in Saudi Arabia they would be radical wahhabi Imams that we see on Memri TV. They are exactly the same type of personality. Behe seems more quack then scientist. One of those very smart people who gave up on thinking and latched onto a failing idea. As soon as he admits his irreducible complexity argument was a bad idea all around, he can get on to some real science.

ID folks drew a line in the sand and are now finding themselves being beaten back in courts. I don't think God is on their side.

Given that government is growing huge in size and effect and work. I think it unwise to throw the "separation of church and state" idea around on a local level like this. We need a better alternative. Governments today are cloning the works of churches and recycling those thoughts into social programs. There does need to be an effect to get the government out of the way, reduce it's size, remove it's social engineering dictum's and transfer that work back into the area of religion. The government at all levels is actively restricting the work of churches and looking to assume those roles. Your next God could be the Gorical.

Sal: People like the Disco Institute are PRECISELY why we need the protections from sectarian public school religious indoctrination that are granted by the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment.

551 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:26:00pm

re: #500 jorline

LOL...could be a tough climb, I would avoid it as well.

I'd have to be pretty squirrely to choose it to build my nest...;~)

552 gman  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:26:40pm

re: #538 Sharmuta

I hope he does contact Creation Ministries and reports back. I have a feeling though that he might not like what he finds out there. And I'm suddenly reminded of Planet of the Apes..... Is that ironic?

This just might burst nate's paradigm. Hanging around LGF long enough has that effect. There are too many intelligent people and good conversation here not to come away learning something.

553 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:27:01pm

re: #519 Sharmuta

Uh- I'm more attracted to a man for his mental capabilities and his ability to appreciate mine.

Oh darn, and here I thought the knuckle-dragging grunting hairy ape routine would be sure to win you over. ;)
-------------------------------------------------- -----------------
re: #525 reine.de.tout

You just described my evolution on this!

Sure was glad it didn't take too many whacks with a 2x4 this time to get me to start looking and examining. ;)

554 ContraJihadi  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:28:10pm

re: #549 Sharmuta

Liberty has many foes. I see our Constitution as a great shield against them all, but only if we hold it up and defend it.

Aye, and I regret that my own vigilance is less that eternal. But now it is time for me to meet my son on line in Guild Wars, a frivolous pursuit, but one we can share over a distance of three thousand miles.

Zephyrs, fair lady :)

555 Josephine  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:28:47pm

re: #506 Sharmuta

I have bluish, greenish, greyish eyes that kind of change color depending on what I'm wearing. I picked them up from a mutant relative. THAT'S evolution!

Cool! Thanks for the link, Shar!

I have blue eyes and my hubby has green eyes.

556 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:29:52pm

re: #502 OrdellRobbie

I believe in evolution; I just don't believe in Darwinian evolution. I do not believe that random mutation and natural selection could have produced the various species. Whether or not I believe in an ultimate creator is immaterial to the discussion as well as to the theory of intelligent design which does not specify God as the creator.

Sal: Science isn't a matter of belief; it's a matter of acknowledging the evidence. And the evidence is overwhelming. Not only do closely genetically related species share scads of identical and identically placed artifactual retroviral DNA sequences, but also the genetic code codes for processes the selfsame way across species. All life not only speaks a genetic language; it all speaks the SAME genetic language.

557 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:30:20pm

re: #541 OrdellRobbie

Perhaps I should be more clear. I do not give a hoot about the Discovery Institute. I read Behe's and others' books and have read Dempski's articles and have been convinced by the facts and arguments presented. The most powerful argument I found against abiogenesis is the fact that the most primitive cells we know of are too complex to have just popped into existence, and that science has never been able to create proteins under conditions which mirror the earth at the time life arose. The most powerful argument I found against Darwinian evolution is the odds against the correct sequence of purely random mutations occurring precisely when they are needed and being selected for. Something else is at work and for now I will stick with a design. A program is a design. DNA appears designed to create new forms/organs/species.

You better start reading more from the other end as well. The facts and arguments have been shown to be (to borrow a phrase from Charles) "absolute hooey."

558 swamprat  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:34:07pm

No matter how you look at it, this is exciting. If you are of a scientific bent, we are looking back at the beginnings of known life. If you are of a religious viewpoint, we are looking into the mind of G*d. But no matter how you see, we are reverse-engineering life itself, and that is exciting.

559 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:35:49pm

re: #554 ContraJihadi

Have fun!

re: #555 Josephine

You're welcome- I find it a fascinating topic.

560 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:51:18pm

re: #541 OrdellRobbie

Perhaps I should be more clear. I do not give a hoot about the Discovery Institute. I read Behe's and others' books and have read Dempski's articles and have been convinced by the facts and arguments presented.
>
Sal: This admission does not augur well for your scientific acumen.
>
The most powerful argument I found against abiogenesis is the fact that the most primitive cells we know of are too complex to have just popped into existence, and that science has never been able to create proteins under conditions which mirror the earth at the time life arose.
>
Sal: This contention would seem to indicate that you have either not read the article anchoring this thread, or that the significance of its contentions and the evidence marshalled in their support has eluded you.
>
The most powerful argument I found against Darwinian evolution is the odds against the correct sequence of purely random mutations occurring precisely when they are needed and being selected for. Something else is at work and for now I will stick with a design. A program is a design. DNA appears designed to create new forms/organs/species.


>
Sal: Sometimes, in fact, quite typically in Terran history, the necessary mutation doesn't manifest, and the species becomes extinct. But, as I mentioned before, the random mutations are selected for and against by environmental pressures, which are nonrandom. The flagellum shows that mutational subsets of gene codes necessary to create an organ have their own beneficial uses, for which they were selected.

Someone who is an engineer is predisposed to see intelligent design in life, even where it does not exist. What is not there to perceive is simply imposed. And the profound power, derived from an amazingly lengthy concatenation of blind yet nonrandom effects, that changing environments can have on imperfectly replicating mutational structures over the course of more than two thousand million years, is typically vastly underestimated, simply because the mind has a problem wrapping itself around a time span a million times as long as the span from biblical times until now.

561 right of left  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:53:08pm

re: #53 Fried Spam

Fried Spam makes a very salient point here about species definitions. It is often the sticking point seen between what some have termed micro-evolution and macro-evolution. At last count, I think I came up with 22 existing different species definitions currently in use for eukaryotes (organisms whose cells have a nucleus, such as plant and animals). There is no universal objective standard, no bright line that dictates when one evolving population transitions into a new species.

The situation is even worse for bacteria. For instance the currently accepted species definition used for prokaryotes (organisms that don't have nucleated cells), typically allows up to 30% DNA divergence within the same species. To put this in perspective, it the same definition were used for humans; all primates, from lemurs to chimps to gorillas, to humans would be defined as the same species.

It is very difficult do design an experiment to to test the evolution of a new species if no two people can agree on when that event occurs.

562 Chip Designer  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 6:57:36pm

Salamantis:

I have enjoyed your science arguments. Particularly your point about science being the acknowledgment of the evidence rather than a belief. You are good in these discussions.

I have also tried to work through your My-Space philosophy essays. Those are a lot tougher to understand. But then readable philosophy tends to be a contradiction.

563 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:00:54pm

re: #536 ContraJihadi

Sharm, now that we have returned to the subject of mental capabilities: Did I understand correctly that the OOL thesis states that there was a first group of organisms (not an individual) from which all others evolved? If this is so and this genetic species is authochthonic, then it could not itself evolved, correct?

Sal: The basic idea is that chemical compounds began to produce self-similar, but not self-identical, isomers. Then the environment would select for those with a higher level of copying fidelity, for they would produce more of the more-similar. Thus, through many steps, RNA and DNA would themselves evolve. However, this copying fidelity could not be perfect; otherwise, when the environment changes, the replicants could not produce mutations at all, which means that all of the perfect copiers would perish for lack of the capacity to adapt. This means that there is a mutation-rate sweet spot, towards which evolution would quite blindly approximate, below which organisms are less likely to reproduce genetic conspecifics,but above which organisms are less likely to be able to adapt via beneficial mutation to environmental changes.

564 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:05:54pm

re: #1 soccerdad

I don't understand Charles' obsession with this topic. give it a rest.

I don't understand the obsession some people have with telling Charles what he can or can't do on HIS blog. Give it a rest, will ya?

565 Right of Left  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:14:57pm

I think it is important to make a distinction between the OOL and the Last Common Ancestor.

It is likely the very first life that evolved looked very different from the Last Common Ancestor, so trying to trace a trajectory back to the LCA, and assuming that because the LCA had a DNA genome, Life originated with a DNA genome is a risky assumption.

566 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:19:18pm

re: #561 right of left

Fried Spam makes a very salient point here about species definitions. It is often the sticking point seen between what some have termed micro-evolution and macro-evolution. At last count, I think I came up with 22 existing different species definitions currently in use for eukaryotes (organisms whose cells have a nucleus, such as plant and animals). There is no universal objective standard, no bright line that dictates when one evolving population transitions into a new species.

The situation is even worse for bacteria. For instance the currently accepted species definition used for prokaryotes (organisms that don't have nucleated cells), typically allows up to 30% DNA divergence within the same species. To put this in perspective, it the same definition were used for humans; all primates, from lemurs to chimps to gorillas, to humans would be defined as the same species.

It is very difficult do design an experiment to to test the evolution of a new species if no two people can agree on when that event occurs.

Sal: Species may gradually diverge, by means of mutational differences accumulating as different mutations occur in isolated populations and different mutations from among these differing pools being selected in response to differing environmental pressures. This is actually something that supports evolutionary theory. If an organism from group A and an organism from group B can produce fertile descendents, they are obviously of the same species. If they cannot produce descendents at all, they are obviously of different species. But what about lions and tigers, which produce sterile ligers and tigons, or horses and donkeys, which produce sterile mules? I would say that they are different species, as their descendents cannot keep a line alive. But it does point out that it is an analogue slope from same species to different species, and not a digital cliff.

567 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:19:50pm

re: #555 Josephine

BTW- it also means we're related!

568 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:33:40pm

Heinlein in a theme running through a lot of his fiction postulated that America might become a Theocracy at some time in the Future; something I thought would never happen as the experiences of my life seemed to indicate that more and more we were headed in a more secular direction. Now with the all-out war on many fronts between religious extremists within and without I am starting to become much more pessimistic about that never happening.

569 Right of Left  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:36:34pm

re: #566 Salamantis

Sal: Species may gradually diverge, by means of mutational differences accumulating as different mutations occur in isolated populations and different mutations from among these differing pools being selected in response to differing environmental pressures. This is actually something that supports evolutionary theory. If an organism from group A and an organism from group B can produce fertile descendents, they are obviously of the same species. If they cannot produce descendents at all, they are obviously of different species. But what about lions and tigers, which produce sterile ligers and tigons, or horses and donkeys, which produce sterile mules? I would say that they are different species, as their descendents cannot keep a line alive. But it does point out that it is an analogue slope from same species to different species, and not a digital cliff.

You are referring to the "Biological Species Concept", in my humble opinion, one of the best and more robust. The examples you give above, however don't even scratch the surface of the problems it encounters. A big issue with the BSC is plant hybridizations. Ever have any broccliflower? Pretty tasty, but is it a new species?

570 Dan G.  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:44:05pm

re: #569 Right of Left

Can it germinate?

571 Dan G.  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:44:45pm

Nite all.

572 hoisted  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:46:00pm

re: #364 Salamantis

re: #364 Salamantis

Sal: The Anthropic Principle and the Observation Selection Effect tend to defenestrate the cosmically based contentions.

Creationists embrace the Anthropic Principle (one interpretation, of course), so I'm not sure what this is meant to convey.

Are you a proponent of Multiverse theory?

573 edr  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:49:34pm

Hmmmm.

I thought, genetically speaking, we're all decendents of a single "mother"?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

574 edr  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:54:05pm

Hmmmm.

Frankly in my experience most devoutly religious, and ID proponents, aren't all that interested in having Creationism taught as science per se. Teaching Creationism as a science is necessary in order to teach Creationism at all in schools today.

*shrug* let Creationism be an elective taught at a local church. Don't make it a science and award no grades for it.

1. There are plenty of courses being taught for which no grades are being awarded. Or so it seems to me.

2. As an elective it's included, not excluded, and the fuss will die down.

575 hoisted  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:56:07pm

re: #295 Tigger2005

I don't know your source for the statement, but I think the meaning was somewhat different.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but if you don't know this (paraphrased) quote by Stephen Jay Gould (and its contribution to the heated debates between Gould & Dawkins [and others]) then I'd recommend some research.

576 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 7:59:08pm

re: #569 Right of Left

You are referring to the "Biological Species Concept", in my humble opinion, one of the best and more robust. The examples you give above, however don't even scratch the surface of the problems it encounters. A big issue with the BSC is plant hybridizations. Ever have any broccliflower? Pretty tasty, but is it a new species?

Sal: Does it breed true? Are broccliflower plants fertile, and do they produce more brocliflowers?

The same thing could be asked of dogs; all dogs are variations upon the enduring theme of wolf. So are we talking one species, or many? I would have to say one, because all the different breeds can interbreed and have fertile hybrid mutt offspring.

Hmmm...I wonder what Asparabrusselsgus Sproutears would taste like...

577 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:09:49pm

re: #572 hoisted

re: #364 Salamantis

Creationists embrace the Anthropic Principle (one interpretation, of course), so I'm not sure what this is meant to convey.

I meant to convey this:

[Link: www.technologyreview.com...]
(free registration required)

excerpt:

Now, it might be thought an amazing coincidence if Earth were the only planet in the galaxy on which intelligent life evolved. If it happened here, the one planet we have studied closely, surely one would expect it to have happened on a lot of other planets in the galaxy--planets we have not yet had the chance to examine. This objection, however, rests on a fallacy: it overlooks what is known as an "observation selection effect." Whether intelligent life is common or rare, every observer is guaranteed to originate from a place where intelligent life did, in fact, arise. Since only the successes give rise to observers who can wonder about their existence, it would be a mistake to regard our planet as a randomly selected sample from all planets. (It would be closer to the mark to regard our planet as a random sample from the subset of planets that did engender intelligent life, this being a crude formulation of one of the saner ideas extractable from the motley ore referred to as the "anthropic principle.")

Since this point confuses many, it is worth expanding on it slightly. Consider two different hypotheses. One says that the evolution of intelligent life is a fairly straightforward process that happens on a significant fraction of all suitable planets. The other hypothesis says that the evolution of intelligent life is extremely complicated and happens perhaps on only one out of a million billion planets. To evaluate their plausibility in light of your evidence, you must ask yourself, "What do these hypotheses predict I should observe?" If you think about it, both hypotheses clearly predict that you should observe that your civilization originated in places where intelligent life evolved. All observers will share that observation, whether the evolution of intelligent life happened on a large or a small fraction of all planets. An observation-selection effect guarantees that whatever planet we call "ours" was a success story. And as long as the total number of planets in the universe is large enough to compensate for the low proba­bility of any given one of them giving rise to intelligent life, it is not a surprise that a few success stories exist.

Sal again: Likewise, we are living in this universe, so, no matter how improbable people might deem it that it has precisely the basic physics parameters to allow for life to happen, it is definitely possible, because it is actual. Even if the chances of rolling a dozen boxcars in a row is tiny, when you are being handed your winnings, you know that it exists.

Are you a proponent of Multiverse theory?

No, I'm not, in this definitional sense; the definition of Universe is All That Is; thus, by definition, nothing can be outside of it. I think that one rapidly expanding vacuum function at a time is quite enough. And besides, there is no way to empirically test such speculations, so I cannot consider them to be science. Until we can empirically test string theory, for instance, I shall continue to consider it a misnamed hypothesis. There is no scientific evidence for either.

578 Right of Left  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:11:29pm

re: #576 Salamantis

Sal: Does it breed true? Are broccliflower plants fertile, and do they produce more brocliflowers?

The same thing could be asked of dogs; all dogs are variations upon the enduring theme of wolf. So are we talking one species, or many? I would have to say one, because all the different breeds can interbreed and have fertile hybrid mutt offspring.

Hmmm...I wonder what Asparabrusselsgus Sproutears would taste like...

It is a fertile hybrid, and since both broccoli and cauliflower both have 9 chromosomes, its not even an extreme example. Another food crop, the Rutabaga is a hybrid between a Turnip (10 chromosomes), and a Cabbage (9 chromosomes). Only the tetraploid (38 chromosomes) are fertile.

579 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:13:09pm

re: #574 edr

Hmmmm.

Frankly in my experience most devoutly religious, and ID proponents, aren't all that interested in having Creationism taught as science per se. Teaching Creationism as a science is necessary in order to teach Creationism at all in schools today.

*shrug* let Creationism be an elective taught at a local church. Don't make it a science and award no grades for it.

1. There are plenty of courses being taught for which no grades are being awarded. Or so it seems to me.

2. As an elective it's included, not excluded, and the fuss will die down.

Sal: As long as it is taught in churches, or elsewhere outside of public school, and public school kids aren't required to attend it, I have no problem with it. I wouldn't award school credits for it, either, nor would I allow public transportation from school to church to be provided.

580 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:18:31pm

re: #576 Salamantis

Sal: Does it breed true? Are broccliflower plants fertile, and do they produce more brocliflowers?

The same thing could be asked of dogs; all dogs are variations upon the enduring theme of wolf. So are we talking one species, or many? I would have to say one, because all the different breeds can interbreed and have fertile hybrid mutt offspring.

Hmmm...I wonder what Asparabrusselsgus Sproutears would taste like...

Gotta be better than Arugula. ;)

581 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:24:24pm

re: #577 Salamantis

No, I'm not, in this definitional sense; the definition of Universe is All That Is; thus, by definition, nothing can be outside of it. I think that one rapidly expanding vacuum function at a time is quite enough. And besides, there is no way to empirically test such speculations, so I cannot consider them to be science. Until we can empirically test string theory, for instance, I shall continue to consider it a misnamed hypothesis. There is no scientific evidence for either.

Whatever you think does not make it so, nor does our current definitions of words, like Universe. However you are correct that we don't know those answers, but the fact that we can ask them, and have other options, like M Theory, to debate means that we have work to do and should not get too comfortable with knowing what is impossible.

582 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:24:32pm

re: #578 Right of Left

It is a fertile hybrid, and since both broccoli and cauliflower both have 9 chromosomes, its not even an extreme example. Another food crop, the Rutabaga is a hybrid between a Turnip (10 chromosomes), and a Cabbage (9 chromosomes). Only the tetraploid (38 chromosomes) are fertile.

Sal: Here is an intersting article that discusses precisely this issue, by one of the contemprary icons of evolutionary theory, Ernst Mayr:

[Link: members.aol.com...]

583 Right of Left  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:26:40pm

re: #576 Salamantis

Sal: Does it breed true? Are broccliflower plants fertile, and do they produce more brocliflowers?

The same thing could be asked of dogs; all dogs are variations upon the enduring theme of wolf. So are we talking one species, or many? I would have to say one, because all the different breeds can interbreed and have fertile hybrid mutt offspring.

As for dogs and the Biological Species Concept. You could probably use the BSC to argue that St. Bernards and Mexican Hairless Chihuahuas are different species, simply because there are substantial physical barriers to cross breeding, and you could keep them together without them interbreeding.

You could create a cross via IVF, but you would most likely be dragged out and stoned to death by St. Bernard breeders.

584 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:27:41pm

re: #581 Naso Tang

Whatever you think does not make it so, nor does our current definitions of words, like Universe. However you are correct that we don't know those answers, but the fact that we can ask them, and have other options, like M Theory, to debate means that we have work to do and should not get too comfortable with knowing what is impossible.

Sal: Well, when that new supersmasher comes online, we'll get some more answers. Personally, I like Garrett Lisi's formulation. The fact that all of 220 known particles map onto the e8 nodes and that the other 28 nodes are in prime positions to be occupied by yet-to-be-discovered particles just seems to me to be too elegant not to work.

585 curdie  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:29:07pm

One thing I forgot to mention in my post on the evils of our government monopoly bureaucratic school system:

If Christians weren't having large quantities of secular progressive multicultural moral relativist garbage stuffed down their children's throats, they might be a wee bit less defensive about Darwinism.

586 Sharmuta  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:32:58pm

re: #585 curdie

If Christians weren't having large quantities of secular progressive multicultural moral relativist garbage stuffed down their children's throats, they might be a wee bit less defensive about Darwinism.

I doubt that.

587 kafir  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:34:12pm

re: #65 natemannq

al-Gore and his sycophantic followers purposefully mis-quote data, research, and take extreme positions to push their political agenda.

Creationists and their true-believers purposefully mis-quote data, research, and take extreme positions to push their political agenda.

I see no difference. Both are the enemies of reason, of scientific inquiry and education. Through al-Gore on the left, they connect to the Islamists, who are enemies of us all.

Believe what you wish to believe, that is your right. Speak what you wish to speak. That is your right.

It is NOT your right to push your beliefs upon me, my children by injecting your beliefs where they do not belong. Keep religion out of science. Keep politics out of science. You diminish the value of science by allowing either to nose their way into the tent.

588 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:35:20pm

re: #583 Right of Left

As for dogs and the Biological Species Concept. You could probably use the BSC to argue that St. Bernards and Mexican Hairless Chihuahuas are different species, simply because there are substantial physical barriers to cross breeding, and you could keep them together without them interbreeding.

You could create a cross via IVF, but you would most likely be dragged out and stoned to death by St. Bernard breeders.

Sal: Don't be so sure. I once owned a great camp dog named Fuzzy, whose mother was a 12 lb fox terrier and whose father was a hundred pound plus black lab. Still don't know how they managed it, but no other dogs had access inside the enclosure, and the pups left no doubt. He was solid black, with long curly hair, and weighed about 50 lbs. At night, he'd lay up under a bush outside the campfire or lanternlight. When someone approached, he'd bark - once, to let me know - then walk up to them with a wagging tail to sniff and see if they were okay. If they weren't, he would run back to my side and show an amazing set of canines. When I went on daytime walkabouts, he'd follow me until I crossed water or got more than a mileor so away from camp, at which time he'd break off and return to watch my site, letting nobody in it. It broke my heart when he contracted an uberagressive bacterial infection and died within days, in spite of IV antibiotics.

589 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:35:53pm

re: #586 Sharmuta

It's a bit hard to believe that was happening in Dover.

590 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:36:48pm

re: #584 Salamantis

Sal: Well, when that new supersmasher comes online, we'll get some more answers. Personally, I like Garrett Lisi's formulation. The fact that all of 220 known particles map onto the e8 nodes and that the other 28 nodes are in prime positions to be occupied by yet-to-be-discovered particles just seems to me to be too elegant not to work.

OK, you knocked me out there, whether you understand that or not; but the principle of elegance is usually the right one. Must be a genetic thing we have....

As to your previous link above, ending in: The basic message which emerges from this account of the numerous difficulties of the species problem is that the definition of the biological species must be based on its biological significance, which is the maintenance of the integrity of well balanced, harmonious gene pools. The actual demarcation of species taxa uses morphological, geographical, ecological, behavioral, and molecular information to infer the rank of isolated populations.

Seems to me that since 1996 DNA analysis has evolved at Moore's law pace and made many of these "objective" problems disappear.

591 Right of Left  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:38:32pm

re: #582 Salamantis

Sal: Here is an intersting article that discusses precisely this issue, by one of the contemprary icons of evolutionary theory, Ernst Mayr:

[Link: members.aol.com...]

You may note that conspicuous by its absence in all of Ernst Mayr's writings is a treatment of microbial species concepts.

592 kafir  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:46:56pm

re: #113 Salamantis

This is the fundamental failure of the ID/creationists. They do not grasp that it is impossible to prove something correct in science. They do not grasp that the burden of dis-proof is upon them, there is no burden of proof upon the theory, as it has passed the tests put to it.

It needs to fail but once, only once, to be a candidate for being tossed in the gutter of history, and failed theories.

As I noted previously, Newton's theory of gravitation, often mistakenly called the "law" of gravitation, is one such false theory. We know where it fails, and approximately why. We still teach it as its failure is, for most people, not a common case, and it provides a reasonable approximation to a more exacting theory. However, if you want to be a purist, we can haul out general relativity and teach differential geometry to high school students and engineering freshmen. I am sure they would appreciate it.

Evolution is accepted in scientific circles because it has done a great job of explaining things. It hasn't seen a counter example or something it has mis-predicted to date.

And this gets to the other fundamental failure of the ID/creationists, is that they don't grasp that "theory" is the highest form of scientific model, and that "fact" is an observable, and that there is no such thing as a law of nature. There are theories, the theories are testable and falsifiable. If they wish to promote ID/creationism as a scientific theory, they need to entertain the notion that it can be falsified. And this is something they could never allow.

Which is why they take the tactics they do. And waste our time, our courts time, and defocus us from fighting against creeping sharia, islam, and jihad.

593 FinnAgain  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:46:56pm

re: #586 Sharmuta

Yep. There's been a 'war' on about Darwin's original work and evolution in general for more than a century now.

594 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:49:12pm

re: #68 Tigger2005

Hear, hear, excellently said.

}:)     [Okay, back from the movies, did I miss the draw-and-quartering?]

595 Right of Left  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:50:51pm

re: #590 Naso Tang

OK, you knocked me out there, whether you understand that or not; but the principle of elegance is usually the right one. Must be a genetic thing we have....

As to your previous link above, ending in: The basic message which emerges from this account of the numerous difficulties of the species problem is that the definition of the biological species must be based on its biological significance, which is the maintenance of the integrity of well balanced, harmonious gene pools. The actual demarcation of species taxa uses morphological, geographical, ecological, behavioral, and molecular information to infer the rank of isolated populations.

Seems to me that since 1996 DNA analysis has evolved at Moore's law pace and made many of these "objective" problems disappear.

There's the rub. All of this use of "morphological, geographical, ecological, behavioral, and molecular information" is done subjectively, with different weights given to different information depending on the organisms being studied, and who is doing the comparing.

596 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:51:42pm
re: #72 MandyManners
re: #57 Idle Drifter

I believe tremblur is stepping across the line from debate to baseless accusations.

Or, just being an asshole.

There's a difference?

}:)     [How-do Ms. Manners, how are you tonight?]

597 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:52:23pm

re: #590 Naso Tang

Here is Garrett Lisi's model:

An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything
A. Garrett Lisi
[Link: arxiv.org...]

Here is a MSM article on him:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

And here is a pic of e8:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Sal: It would be quite remarkable if the structure of the universe mapped onto the single most complex mathematical object we know. I can't wait for the Large Hadron Collider to put it to the test.

598 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 8:55:40pm
re: #83 Charles
re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

Oh, and I have already spent considerable time at the website you linked. Read it, evaluated it, and deemed it as lacking in rigor, depth, and understanding.

You're much more diplomatic than me. I would call it "absolute hooey."

I've always been partial to 'total tripe.'

}:)

599 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:00:37pm

re: #94 Salamantis

Sal: Just because the bubonic plague is a greater threat than lyme disease is no reason not to address them both, as they are both dangerous. This blog can walk and chew gum at the same time.

<emphasis mine>

Hell, this blog dances nekkid on the table.

}:)     [Uhm, in a metaphorical sorta way ... uh, thanks Charles!]

600 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:11:43pm

re: #585 curdie

One thing I forgot to mention in my post on the evils of our government monopoly bureaucratic school system:

If Christians weren't having large quantities of secular progressive multicultural moral relativist garbage stuffed down their children's throats, they might be a wee bit less defensive about Darwinism.

The DI is not on the defensive about pushing THEIR agenda into the schools, so no free pass for them either. Pushing religious agendas disguised as science is just as reprehensible. Replacing one bad thing with something else that is just as bad is not a good solution; you might as well shoot your dog for being unfaithful when your spouse walks out on you.

601 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:19:05pm
re: #128 debutaunt
re: #108 Ojoe

The shouting about this subject, Darwin vs. ID, comes from trying to put theology into a science box.

Let's quit shouting

It does no good, either to science or theology

Is there an IDiotic Table?

Maybe a Periodic IDiotic Table, listing all the elements from the lightest (Evidencium) through C-Reasium, Tautologium , and Mallogos straight down to Densium?

}:)     [It'd be a pretty big wall chart.]

602 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:20:26pm
re: #129 Josephine
re: #94 Salamantis

This blog can walk and chew gum at the same time.

I think that would make a fine rotating title!

}:)     [Seconded ... ]

603 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:21:30pm

re: #591 Right of Left

You may note that conspicuous by its absence in all of Ernst Mayr's writings is a treatment of microbial species concepts.

re: #597 Salamantis

Here is Garrett Lisi's model:

An Exceptionally Simple Theory of Everything
A. Garrett Lisi
[Link: arxiv.org...]

Here is a MSM article on him:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

And here is a pic of e8:

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Sal: It would be quite remarkable if the structure of the universe mapped onto the single most complex mathematical object we know. I can't wait for the Large Hadron Collider to put it to the test.

Yes I've seen that, which is not to say I claim to understand it, but as a cranky skeptic I also have a healthy, I think, reservation about anyone who seems to be as much a self promoter as a scientist. Now if he had presented something like a pretty Mandelbrot set instead of a mechanical looking representation of internet links to LGF, then my ears would be like Spock's.

604 Naso Tang  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:27:53pm

Nite all

605 DeathtotheSwiss  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:29:38pm

I kind of steered clear from this thread...this one and the one that erupted into a big porn convention, heh.

What gets me about this is that we're not allowed to actually debate the subject. Because people who want ID taught, aren't rational Christians who just don't want the government turning their kids into godless liberals, they're people who insist that ID isn't religious then cite their religion to "prove" that the Earth is 5,000 (sometimes 10,000) years old. It'd be one thing if I was arguing with someone who was open about teaching religion in school, but in this case we have some very sneaky people trying to teach their version of things. And the worst part: they're damned liberals of the first order. Just because they're asking for creationism instead of multiculturalism doesn't make them conservative. If I was cynical I'd think they were leftist plants funded by Soros.

606 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:30:06pm
re: #169 natemannq
re: #167 Sharmuta

Do you know what the scientific method is?

Yes, and gathering empirical evidence for the purpose of experimentation using reason has its place.

So does faith.

Ya gotta admire that, a self-refuting fundamentalist.

}:)     [As always, emphasis added by me.]

607 Salamantis  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:34:09pm

re: #603 Naso Tang

Yes I've seen that, which is not to say I claim to understand it, but as a cranky skeptic I also have a healthy, I think, reservation about anyone who seems to be as much a self promoter as a scientist. Now if he had presented something like a pretty Mandelbrot set instead of a mechanical looking representation of internet links to LGF, then my ears would be like Spock's.

Sal: I particularly liked these passages in his paper:

We exist in a universe described by mathematics. But which math? Although it is interesting to consider that the universe may be the physical instantiation of all mathematics, there is a classic principle for restricting the possibilities: The mathematics of the universe should be beautiful. A successful description of nature should be a concise, elegant, unifed mathematical structure consistent with experience.

Hundreds of years of theoretical and experimental work have produced an extremely successful pair of mathematical theories describing our world. The standard model of particles and interactions described by quantum field theory is a paragon of predictive excellence.

General relativity, a theory of gravity built from pure geometry, is exceedingly elegant and effective in its domain of applicability. Any attempt to describe nature at the foundational level must reproduce these successful theories, and the most sensible course towards unification is to extend them with as little new mathematical machinery as necessary. The further we drift from these experimentally verified foundations, the less likely our mathematics is to correspond with reality. In the absence of new experimental data, we should be very careful, accepting sophisticated mathematical constructions only when they provide a clear simplification. And we should pare and unite existing structures whenever possible.

The standard model and general relativity are the best mathematical descriptions we have of our universe. By considering these two theories and following our guiding principles, we will be led to a beautiful unification.

The theory proposed in this paper represents a comprehensive unification program, describing all fields of the standard model and gravity as parts of a uniquely beautiful mathematical structure. The principal bundle connection and its curvature describe how the E8 manifold twists and turns over spacetime, reproducing all known fields and dynamics through pure geometry. Some aspects of this theory are not yet completely understood, and until they are it should be treated with appropriate skepticism. However, the current match to the standard model and gravity is very good. Future work will either strengthen the correlation to known physics and produce successful predictions for the LHC, or the theory will encounter a fatal contradiction with nature. The lack of extraneous structures and free parameters ensures testable predictions, so it will either succeed or fail spectacularly. If E8 theory is fully successful as a theory of everything, our universe is an exceptionally beautiful shape.

608 jaunte  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:35:44pm

re: #605 DeathtotheSwiss

You're right. It's hard to debate with someone who's lying from the git-go about their intent.

609 DeathtotheSwiss  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:39:16pm

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

That's like the global warming advocates who say, "So what if we're wrong, isn't the slight chance of global destruction reason enough for our drastic economical and environmentally worthless policies?"

No, just because there might be an old clown in a sewer somewhere that proves your strongly held convictions to be true, does not mean we should teach ID at all. There is no reason anyone can argue that makes it reasonable for ID to be taught in science class. If you're so dead set on it being taught, start going door to door with a Bible in your hand. Try to get philosophy taught as a Freshmen-Senior course at your local high school. Stop trying to redefine science.

610 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:40:12pm
re: #193 Salamantis
re: #87 RotorcraftJOE

I think the Gordy Slack article was well thought out and written well. His points were presented well. The reply by Nick Matzke sounded rather arrogant.

Sal: I guess your definition of arrogant is 'chocked full of facts which contradict your position.'

You've noticed that?

}:)     [Seems to be an epidemic.]

611 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:54:32pm

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Why are the creationists simultaneously claiming the want open discussion about evolution in the class room but they don't want it discussed here?

Because they hope that school children are more dumb than we?

}:)     [Indoctrination always works best from a young age.]

612 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 9:59:20pm
re: #265 jcm
re: #259 debutaunt

But should overweight politicians act as scientists?

Algore is not overweight.
He's retaining carbon for the good of the planet.
/

Yeah, but someday he's going to explode.

}:)     [With any luck Tipper will take most of the blast.]

613 Jimmah  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 10:09:38pm

re: #506 Sharmuta

I have bluish, greenish, greyish eyes that kind of change color depending on what I'm wearing. I picked them up from a mutant relative. THAT'S evolution!

Oh you've got green eyes
Oh you've got grey eyes
Oh you've got blue eyes...

614 Jimmah  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 10:18:56pm

re: #569 Right of Left

You are referring to the "Biological Species Concept", in my humble opinion, one of the best and more robust. The examples you give above, however don't even scratch the surface of the problems it encounters. A big issue with the BSC is plant hybridizations. Ever have any broccliflower? Pretty tasty, but is it a new species?

At some point it may begin to dawn on you that the gray areas between species and variety, race etc, is exactly what we should expect to find if organisms are indeed evolved.

615 transient  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 10:37:54pm

Finally finished watching the Nova program--truly excellent.

Astonishing (or maybe not) that the ID proponentsists--at least the local ones--evidently learned nothing from the experience.
Too much to hope that the DI people like Johnson and Behe would have some epiphany.

616 FinnAgain  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 10:48:57pm

re: #605 DeathtotheSwiss


What gets me about this is that we're not allowed to actually debate the subject. Because people who want ID taught, aren't rational Christians who just don't want the government turning their kids into godless liberals

Even if they were straight about such a goal, that isn't "rational" either. It is, in essence, saying "Schools are places of indoctrination, which I do not agree with at all as it teaches values contrary to my own, to my children. So, in response, we should indoctrinate other parents' children in accord with my religious beliefs."

I'd believe that they were rational if they were crusading for an ideologically neutral scholastic enviornment.
They're not.

617 Mich-again  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 10:55:27pm

Unless I am mistaken from reading the linked articles, OOL relies on the presence of water. And from digging around it seems the science behind the timing and origin of the Earth's water supply is still being disputed. So do any of the theories of how water got to the surface of the Earth lose credibility based on the theories of how and when life started and vice versa? The two have to work in conjunction, no?

618 Alberta Oil Peon  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 10:59:03pm

re: #239 lance

Man, what a bore these threads are...not even fun to troll anymore. Please Charles....can we move on to something else?

OK, now that that's out of my system, check this out (or oot, if you're a Canuck):

Largest mosque opens in Calgary to political fanfare

Harper shows up to this? When's the last time the leader of any Western country graced the opening of church with their presence? Yeesh.

Lance, I think the reason Harper made an appearance here is that the Ahmadis are a non-violent sect of muslims, who have not presented themselves as a problem for Canada. Regular muslims consider them to be heretics, and that view is held especially strongly by the jihadi crowd.

So by appearing at the opening of the Ahmadi mosque, Harper is figuratively flipping the bird at the jihadists.

619 Mich-again  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 11:02:27pm

re: #618 Alberta Oil Peon

I get that. Why alienate every single Muslim when you can reach out to the moderate ones while flipping off the jihadis. That makes perfect sense. Let each of them figure out which side they would rather be on instead of corralling every Muslim into the enemy camp.

620 Kulhwch  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 11:06:27pm
re: #484 Sharmuta
re: #476 Kulhwch

Heck- after littleO's insulting comment yesterday- that was nuthin'. ;)

Heh.  Yeah, well at least they tend to blunt their force a bit with you.  I can't believe I've heard good church-goers call me some of the things they've called me.

Of course no one topped my grandmother at Bingo.  Boy, did she know some words ...

}:)     [Still, it means you have their attention, doesn't it?]

621 Alberta Oil Peon  Sat, Jul 5, 2008 11:15:16pm

re: #396 itellu3times

Eh. I agree that most of what he says is almost certainly true, but I'm afraid he overstates the formal strength of what is known, and while the science is nicely presented, I don't think he really advances anyone's arguments. Just as a nit:

Well, no it's not, H and He make up like 99% of matter IIRC, and that's not even counting dark matter and dark energy! What I suppose he means is that it seems ubiquitous, spectrographs find it in every region of space where we can look, and we are much more interested in those places it occurs than in vast areas (like inside of stars!) where it does not!

And, can it (any OOL theory) even *be* proven? Not easily. Even if you can create simple cells in a test tube from nothing but a small box of simple ingredients, it may be impossible to distinguish the case where the origin of life happened ten billion years ago 50,000 light years away and we came from some kind of panspermia, from the case that there are millions of Earth-like worlds in the Milky Way galaxy alone, and that life spontaneously evolves on most of them, given a quiet billion years or so.

[more ranting by me deleted]

Actually, water is one of the most common compounds in the universe. Hydrogen and helium are elements. It's an important distinction.

622 Viewtifulgare  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 1:38:29am

Well, I'm glad I've spent too much time reading this interesting debate, even if it was rather nasty towards my beliefs. I believe in Evolution and the Bible, that they are NOT mutually exclusive outlooks on the world. I believe that my God could and did use everything He had at his disposal to create life on this Earth. Is that scientifically provable? Absolutely not.
I don't pretend that I didn't used to believe in a young earth, all the supposed 'fallacies' that riddled evolution, etc... but from a long period of reflection and prayer I've come to understand that maybe, just maybe, I haven't really understood the bible. I think the biggest problem for a lot of Christians is to wrap their minds around the idea that they might not have the correct interpretation of the bible (wouldn't be the first time, and definitely won't be the last).

Christians don't seem to understand that if Jesus needed to relate complex theological ideas through simplified parables, isn't it possible that God explaining something as complex as the beginning of the universe might be related in the same way?

I believe that the 'days' in Genesis that have brought about this huge resistance among the Christian community to any alternate view of the beginning of the universe should actually have been translated properly as 'ages'.

I'm simply tired of these knock-down-drag-outs here at LGF, mostly because this is one of my favorite blogs (and I finally, finally got in the gate!), but the tone here makes me feel increasingly unwelcome. I understand that the level of frustration is probably a major factor in the intensity of these discussions, but I know that Charles is trying to be fair in pointing out what he sees as fighting one religious encroachment while ignoring another. I fear the backlash this will cause Christianity, especially in a time where many are hungry for a sense of identity and belonging that can lead to loss of national identity, and eventual submission to an aggressive, malignant ideology like radical Islam. If we Christians can't be honest with ourselves, then we've dishonored God.

To all the anti-ID'ers; I'm not your enemy. To my fellow Christians; I understand that you have the best of intentions, but the road to hell is paved with such. Don't lie to yourselves, just trust that God is in control.

623 MajorPribluda  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 2:13:49am

re: #144 natemannq

Dude, my point is that ID should be taught IN ADDITION to Evolution and you resent me for that because you see no place for the former.

Who has the closed mind?

The point is that ID horseshit, like Global Warming horseshit, is a political agenda wrapped in pseudoscience. Evolution is just plain science.

In science, the research drives the conclusion. In Global Warming and ID, the conclusion drives the research.

624 MajorPribluda  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 2:17:16am

re: #622 Viewtifulgare

Well, I'm glad I've spent too much time reading this interesting debate, even if it was rather nasty towards my beliefs. I believe in Evolution and the Bible, that they are NOT mutually exclusive outlooks on the world. I believe that my God could and did use everything He had at his disposal to create life on this Earth. Is that scientifically provable? Absolutely not.
I don't pretend that I didn't used to believe in a young earth, all the supposed 'fallacies' that riddled evolution, etc... but from a long period of reflection and prayer I've come to understand that maybe, just maybe, I haven't really understood the bible. I think the biggest problem for a lot of Christians is to wrap their minds around the idea that they might not have the correct interpretation of the bible (wouldn't be the first time, and definitely won't be the last).

Christians don't seem to understand that if Jesus needed to relate complex theological ideas through simplified parables, isn't it possible that God explaining something as complex as the beginning of the universe might be related in the same way?

I believe that the 'days' in Genesis that have brought about this huge resistance among the Christian community to any alternate view of the beginning of the universe should actually have been translated properly as 'ages'.

I'm simply tired of these knock-down-drag-outs here at LGF, mostly because this is one of my favorite blogs (and I finally, finally got in the gate!), but the tone here makes me feel increasingly unwelcome. I understand that the level of frustration is probably a major factor in the intensity of these discussions, but I know that Charles is trying to be fair in pointing out what he sees as fighting one religious encroachment while ignoring another. I fear the backlash this will cause Christianity, especially in a time where many are hungry for a sense of identity and belonging that can lead to loss of national identity, and eventual submission to an aggressive, malignant ideology like radical Islam. If we Christians can't be honest with ourselves, then we've dishonored God.

To all the anti-ID'ers; I'm not your enemy. To my fellow Christians; I understand that you have the best of intentions, but the road to hell is paved with such. Don't lie to yourselves, just trust that God is in control.

I see it this way: Creation is faith, evolution is science, and ID is a poor attempt to merge the two. So long as you don't want faith or other non-scientific points of view represented in a science class, then you and I are not opposed.

625 A. van Hilten  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 4:18:37am

re: #251 Killgore Trout

Why are the creationists simultaneously claiming the want open discussion about evolution in the class room but they don't want it discussed here?

For the same reason they demand "equal time" in the classroom but don't want evolution discussed in their churches.

For the same reason they insist that materialism and skepticism in their creation myth(s) makes one a sort
of yahoo with no moral compass.

For the same reason they'd never let Islam (or Wicca
or Buddhism) be taught to their children.

Because, first and foremost, they're hypocrites of the
first order.

626 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 6:01:36am

re: #447 OrdellRobbie

But neo-Darwinian theory rests upon random mutation to create the organs. There needs to be not just one, but hundreds, if not thousands, of mutations which much occur in the correct order and be selected for to produce a wing, for instance. The odds that the exact same series of strictly random mutations would occur to produce the marsupial wolf and the placental wolf which are identical in all respects except for the marsupial pouch and which evolved from different ancestors is simply too far fetched. And there are many other such examples. This appears to argue for some active latent capacity in DNA to create structures which i then argues for a design.

Again, you're misunderstanding evolution. It is NOT entirely random. Natural selection "selects" those mutations that enable a species to survive and reproduce in a given environment. Therefore, species can follow different evolutionary pathways to similar results. Birds evolved from small dinosaurs, bats evolved from small mammals, but both can fly. Their wings are similar, but different. There's no reason for the wing to have built into DNA in advance.

As for the marsupial wolf, it did resemble a wolf, but it did not look exactly like a wolf, except for the pouch. Again, this is not as big a deal as you seem to think. Once you had 4-legged creatures that were the ancestors of canines and felines and the like, there was a chance that similar looking, yet different, creatures could evolve under similar environmental conditions. Convergent evolution is interesting, but it just doesn't pose a problem for modern evolutionary theory nor does it suggest intelligent design.

Also, in your first post, you had this:

...the acrimony between strict adherents to gradualism and punctuated equilibrium, etc., should be required teaching. The idea that macro-evolution is a fait accompli is absurd.

"Gradualism" and "punctuated equilibrium" are not two different things. Punctuated equilibrium simply states that evolution does not always proceed at the same rate. It is still "gradual," with "small" changes adding up to bigger changes, but changing environmental pressures and opportunities can drive more changes over shorter periods of time. Once a state of "equilibrium" is reached, evolution proceeds much more slowly. Although there was some controversy over p.e. when it was first proposed, it has since been incorporated into the theory and it there is no "acrimony" over it. I doubt you're going to find many "strict adherents to gradualism" (as if it's a point of faith to be held to in spite of conflicting evidence) out there.

As for macroevolution, you seem to think microevolution and macroevolution are different things as well. They are not, they are simply part of a continuum. Macroevolution is simply the accumulation of microevolutionary changes. No mechanism has been identified that prevents small mutations from accumulating over time until you wind up with very different creatures than what you started with. In any case, macroevolution can be observed in the fossil record...it happens, there is no question about it.

627 Josephine  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 6:59:37am

re: #622 Viewtifulgare

You believe in evolution yet you dinged down comments #252 & #567.

#567 was especially innocuous.

628 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 7:26:47am

re: #627 Josephine

You believe in evolution yet you dinged down comments #252 & #567.

#567 was especially innocuous.

Wow- why would anyone ding that down?

629 Right of Left  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 7:59:06am

re: #614 Jimmah

You utterly misunderstood my comment. It is of absolutely expected to see these cross-species hybrids. And their existence is no problem for evolutionary theory. They are only a problem for the
Biological Species Concept (BSC). The BSC is just one of many species concepts, none of which are perfect. One should not confuse a criticism of a species concept with a criticism of Darwinian evolution. I am a strong proponent of the neo-Darwinian theory of evolution.

630 J.S.  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 8:21:40am

re: #4 Fried Spam

It's always difficult trying to figure out a poster's motives...and whether or not a question is genuine, or if it's merely being asked so as to present an agenda...For the sake of argument, I'll assume you're asking a legitimate question. The answer (with regard to "why isn't the focus on DNA?", etc) is contained in the text, "The Structure of Evolutionary Theory" (look up in Part II, Chapter 8 -- "Species as Individuals in the Hierarchical Theory of Selection", page 595, and pay particular attention to page 613 -- "A fruitful error of logic" and what follows.)

631 Charles  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 8:59:05am

Unfortunately, at the Panda's Thumb link we now have some LGF-haters spreading falsehoods about us again.

632 Charles  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 9:02:18am

Someone should challenge those complainers at Panda's Thumb to say what their usernames were at LGF, so we can see what they were really banned for.

(I have a policy of not commenting at other blogs, or I'd do it myself.)

633 soccerdad  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 9:09:50am

re: #564 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't understand the obsession some people have with telling Charles what he can or can't do on HIS blog. Give it a rest, will ya?

Yeah -- see # 55 above. You're late to the party.

634 Charles  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 9:22:39am

Note: "Rock the Casbah" is lying about why he got banned, of course.

Here's the comment that led to his banning, in which he calls me a psychotic "useful idiot," accuses me of slander, and says I have no conscience.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

635 Wonder95  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 9:54:16am

Sorry Charles, but there are more holes in evolutionary theory than you and your articles seem to want to admit. For example, probably one of the biggest holes in the origin of life is the issue of homochirality. Evolutionary biology has yet to come close to coming up with a mechanism for this, and without it, life doesn't exist.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but in the midst of the flames, I'm sure I won't see a good explanation for that issue, or any of the other myriad of issues that plague evolutionary theory (theory being the key word).

636 Charles  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 9:56:35am

That's ironic.

Even as this 'harold' guy is complaining that comments are 'censored' at LGF, someone just deleted your response to him, Sharmuta.

637 doriangrey  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 9:58:36am

re: #636 Charles

That's ironic.

Even as this 'harold' guy is complaining that comments are 'censored' at LGF, someone just deleted your response to him, Sharmuta.

Oh come now Charles, thats not Ironic, its truth to power...............

638 Charles  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 9:59:44am

re: #635 Wonder95

Another creationist talking point:

[Link: www.answersingenesis.org...]

639 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:06:26am

re: #636 Charles

I still see it Charles.

640 Charles  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:13:51am

re: #639 Sharmuta

I still see it Charles.

You're right, it's still there - but they have an Ajax-based comment system that appears to be kind of buggy. The comment vanished when I re-opened the page.

641 transient  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:14:43am

re: #635 Wonder95

Sorry Charles, but there are more holes in evolutionary theory than you and your articles seem to want to admit. For example, probably one of the biggest holes in the origin of life is the issue of homochirality. Evolutionary biology has yet to come close to coming up with a mechanism for this, and without it, life doesn't exist.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but in the midst of the flames, I'm sure I won't see a good explanation for that issue, or any of the other myriad of issues that plague evolutionary theory (theory being the key word).

It is important when having a discussion, especially a scientific discussion, to understand and agree on terminology. You are confusing origin of life with evolution. They are two separate concepts. Evolutionary theory deals with the change in species once life has already gotten underway. The mechanisms of evolution are different from the mechanisms of origin of life.

642 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:19:19am

re: #635 Wonder95

Sorry Charles, but there are more holes in evolutionary theory than you and your articles seem to want to admit. For example, probably one of the biggest holes in the origin of life is the issue of homochirality. Evolutionary biology has yet to come close to coming up with a mechanism for this, and without it, life doesn't exist.
>
Sal: Wikipedia doesn't see a problem with it.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Let's put it this way; if there are possibilities for a left-handed molecule and a right-handed molecule of a particular protein, and one of them is beneficial, while the other one is detrimental or useless, which one will be naturally selected? One must consider the organism's internal environment as well as its ambient surroundings. This is analogous to noting that a theory not only has to correspond to the observed external empirical evidence, but it also cannot suffer from internal contradicition.
>
I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but in the midst of the flames, I'm sure I won't see a good explanation for that issue, or any of the other myriad of issues that plague evolutionary theory (theory being the key word).


>
Sal: Well, you just got one. And every one of these supposed 'myriad' of issues that you defiantly proclaim that has been broached here has been dealt with as well. A final note; the disparaging manner in which you reference the term 'theory' demonstrates that you are definitionally illiterate concerning scientific vocabulary; else you would know how strong scientific theories must be to qualify as such. The scientific employment of the word is definitionally far from the popular usage. The fact that you appear to be unaware of this fact does not indicate a close acquaintanceship with science generally.

643 preacherwes  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:26:19am

I have not had the opportunity to read many of the comments, but the biggest thing missing from the OOL discussion is, "Where did the life come from in the first place?"
There are far too many gaps in any fossil record to prove or disprove MACRO evolution, but everyone can agree that micro evolution is a fact. However, even if you concede the LCA argument, where and how did life originate. If it is a single celled organism, the basic genetic structure contains complex packets of information. Where did that information come from? Why has no one been able to produce life from inert amino acids?
Evolution does not answer anything, it just pushes the question to an earlier date.

644 swamprat  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:36:54am

re: #641 transient
read this it was in the header. If you have a real issue, do not expect it to be treated fairly. However, you really should actually read the links before you post.

645 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:37:26am

re: #640 Charles

Yeah- but now I'm bathroom wall graffiti, I think.

646 transient  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:41:27am

re: #644 swamprat

read this it was in the header.

To what, specifically, are you referring?

647 doriangrey  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:41:50am

re: #645 Sharmuta

Yeah- but now I'm bathroom wall graffiti, I think.

ROTFLMAO..........sorry but this quote from Pirates of the Caribbeans comes to mind...

Norrinton:" You are without doubt, the worst pirate I have ever heard of." Jack:" But you have heard of me"....

648 swamprat  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:44:28am

re: #644 swamprat

re: #641 transient

re: #635 Wonder95

My bad transient. Sorry.
"Wonder95"; please click on the blue words in my post above. Your point is covered, but I can't say how well. I hope that you are not just repeating a talking point. We get that a lot. On both sides.

649 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:44:33am

Although- there's nothing but *crickets* from Rock the Casbah and Atheist.

650 swamprat  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:45:34am

re: #649 Sharmuta

Now there's a shock.

651 FinnAgain  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:50:31am

re: #645 Sharmuta

I wouldn't let it bother you.

Anybody Orwellian enough to claim that LGF is filled with people who "want to see Israel destroyed" and "accuse anyone who doesn’t similarly hate Israel of being in the pocket of the Grand Zionist Conspiracy"... and then backs that up, after being challenged, by saying that some Israelis disagree with how LGF goes about supporting Israel?

Smile and nod.

652 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 11:04:54am

re: #651 FinnAgain

Thanks. I'll wear it as a badge of honor.

653 FinnAgain  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 11:07:22am

re: #648 swamprat

It's only something someone has written, it's not gospel. And he's wrong a good number of points wrt rhetoric.

First:

The second statement, splitting the OOL from evolutionary theory, is only technically correct in a sort of legalistic, hairsplitting way.

That means, translated, that it's accurate and semantically tight. He's trying to rearrange language because he doesn't like its effect on the discussion. But he's wrong. OOL and evolution are divergent, and even if magic pandas created the first lifeform out of silly putty and love rays, evolution would still stand on its own.


but getting from replicators to the last common ancestor is most of what most people think about when they’re thinking about the origin of life, i.e., “where did the evolutionary ancestor of all life today come from?” and all of that is evolution all the way.

Yes, and most people think that "theory" means "guess". And going from replicators to the LCA still isn't "the OOL" as most folks mean it. They don't want to know how proto-life went to life, they want to know where 'something came from nothing'. Most ID'ers and creationists don't want to know about microspheres, they (pretend to) want to know where all that stuff came from in the first place.


Furthermore, even the origin of the first classical “replicator” was itself very likely an evolutionary process, in that it occurred in stepwise fashion and not all-at-once, and that the first replicator was likely preceded by various sorts of pseudoreplication, statistical inheritance and kinetic biases. If you remove evolution from your thinking about the origin of the first replicator then it is very likely you will never understand how it happened, or what the current research on the question is about.

He's both right, and wrong. What he's talking about is chemistry and molecular biology, not evolution as we know it. That the rise of the original replicators would have have had evolutionary elements does not make it part of evolution.

Memetics has evolutionary elements, too. That doesn't mean that cognitive linguistics is really a discipline of evolutionary biology.

And then, of course, Nick goes on to be 100% wrong.

even apart from these detailed considerations, “evolution” reasonably has a broader meaning – the evolution of the universe, the solar system, the planet, and the planet’s geochemistry, and the origin of life and the origin of the first replicator must be understood as part of that larger evolutionary history.

That is neither reasonable nor accurate. Evolution refers to how life (or even protolife) acts, as a whole, in an environment. Once we include everything from geology to cosmology, evolution loses all meaning aside from "causality". The Universe no more "evolved" than the thai peanut chicken pasta I cooked the other night "evolved" from its constituent ingredients. The formation of the Earth and its moon is no more a process of "evolution" than the creation of the Rocky Mountains was an evolutionary event.

He's just wrong.

And, what's more, he brings in and explicitly allows the standard creationist distortions of the Big Bang and so on. How life got here does not matter once we have replicators which lead to life. It's just the truth.

Or, as Shalit says:

There’s probably a long distance from the first replicator (which was almost certainly not a cell) to “complex cellular life” and all of this domain and history is fair game for evolution. But before the first replicator is, I think, not within the domain of evolutionary biology.
654 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 11:13:48am

re: #643 preacherwes

I have not had the opportunity to read many of the comments, but the biggest thing missing from the OOL discussion is, "Where did the life come from in the first place?"
>
Sal: You must not have read the article that anchors this thread, because that question is PRECISELY what the article addresses. In fact, although we don't know everything (yet) about the process, we DO know a great deal, and are discovering more and more as time goes on. IDers, on the other hand, know nothing about it. They just have a belief.
>
There are far too many gaps in any fossil record to prove or disprove MACRO evolution, but everyone can agree that micro evolution is a fact.
>
Sal: Actually, those gaps are being progressively filled in, and the plethora of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences found in identical locations in the genomes of genetically close but macroevolutionarily separate species are overwhelming evidence for common ancestors.
>
However, even if you concede the LCA argument, where and how did life originate.
>
Sal: It originated here, by stepwise accumulations of copying fidelity, from chemical compounds that budded self-similar isomers, by a process which should be familiar to all by nnow; natural selection.
>
If it is a single celled organism, the basic genetic structure contains complex packets of information. Where did that information come from? Why has no one been able to produce life from inert amino acids?
>
Sal: The single celled organism is itself the product of much evolution. Now I KNOW that you didn't read the thread-anchoring article. And our producing life from amino acids would neither prove nor disprove anything concerning the archaic natural steps toward life.
>
Evolution does not answer anything, it just pushes the question to an earlier date.


>
Sal: It certainly has answered how speciation proceeded; via random mutation acted upon by nonrandom environmental selection. And ID offers people answers, but, unlike the answers that evolutionary theory furnishes, which are supported by vast masses of empirical evidence, and contradicted by not a shred of it, ID's answers have not a shred of empirical evidence to support them, and are in fact untestable. They are religious assertions, and as such, they cannot be known, but must be taken on faith...or not.

655 swamprat  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 11:15:35am

re: #653 FinnAgain I was refering to his point about homochirality which is addressed here;

* The origin of chirality (the left-handedness of amino acids). This is a major puzzle if you make the extremely foolish and unthinking assume (like creationists do, but sometimes others) that the first use of amino acids in early life was supposed to be in long amino acid chains made up of 100+ amino acids randomly assembled from an even mixture of 20+ different amino acids with an even mixture of right- and left-handed amino acids. But over here in the real world, where the origin of the genetic code has been reconstructed in some detail, we know the following: the first primitive genetic code used just one or a few amino acids, and one of the first was glycine, which is the simplest amino acid, the most common amino acid produced in prebiotic experiments, and which is achiral (no left-hand/right-hand difference) to boot. If, as has been proposed, the first use of amino acids was as something relatively prosaic, i.e. a short chain of hydrophobic residues to insert into an early membrane, then (a) the odds of getting 10 or so amino acids at once that were either left-handed or glycine were not small at all, and (b) it wouldn’t have mattered much if the occasional right-handed amino acid was incorporated, because the crude chemical property of hydrophobicity is all that is really important, and © therefore the origin of a preferred chirality could have been more or less random. There is some very interesting work indicating that nature has various processes which might increase the proportion of left-handed amino acids, but it’s not at all clear that these will be necessary to explain chirality.

My science is not even close to determining whether this is reasonable, or if the guy is blowing smoke.

656 transient  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 11:18:11am

re: #648 swamprat

My bad transient. Sorry.

Whew. I was confused there for a while.

re: #651 FinnAgain

Anybody Orwellian enough to claim that LGF is filled with people who "want to see Israel destroyed" and "accuse anyone who doesn’t similarly hate Israel of being in the pocket of the Grand Zionist Conspiracy"... and then backs that up, after being challenged, by saying that some Israelis disagree with how LGF goes about supporting Israel?

I didn't see all the comments about LGF on that site, but I remember the bit about hating Israel etc. At least the reference I saw seemed to be a limited defense of LGF; he seemed to be saying that because a lot of Israel haters come (to troll), registration is limited so the newbies can be watched and the haters filtered out (true). I didn't see that particular comment as anti-LGF (unless one infers he believes that anti-Semites should be allowed the run of the house). But a lot of others were definitely anti-LGF in a generalizing "conservative = bad even if pro-evolution" way.

657 FinnAgain  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 11:27:32am

re: #656 transient

After seeing his 'rebuttal' to Sharm, I honestly can't see it that way. He honestly seemed to be saying that LGF turns away pro-Israel people who just 'see things differently' and that since many would feel that LGF's pro-Israel policies "will not benefit Israel in the way LGF claims they will" that LGF isn't actually in support of Israel.

But I can admit, he seemed more to be babbling than making any point.

re: #655 swamprat

Ah, misunderstood who which part of your comments were directed to and if you were being sarcastic or not.
I still maintain, however, that Nick was wrong when he said that evolution and abiogenesis can be the same, or that cosmology is evolution.

658 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 12:10:46pm
re: #633 soccerdad
re: #564 FurryOldGuyJeans

I don't understand the obsession some people have with telling Charles what he can or can't do on HIS blog. Give it a rest, will ya?

Yeah -- see # 55 above. You're late to the party.

You mean the post in which you told people not to back Charles?

When one is only going to spout a tautology or engage in 'defending' our Lizard overlord (like HE needs defending), it would be much better to forego the urge to engage said QWERTY mechanism.

}:)     [How odd ... ]

659 J.S.  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 12:19:34pm

re: #657 FinnAgain

Nick so distorts the term "evolution" that it could refer to any kind of change. (Might also wonder if the manner in which the term "evolve" is used, by Nick, that it doesn't also imply, "change for the better" -- or "progress" -- now that's once again, troubling...)

660 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 12:35:24pm

re: #634 Charles

Note: "Rock the Casbah" is lying about why he got banned, of course.

Here's the comment that led to his banning, in which he calls me a psychotic "useful idiot," accuses me of slander, and says I have no conscience.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

I've noted something else which I call the jihadi justification ... people who are attempting to control the free speech you show here and derail conversation often, especially if they really have no evidence or any other reason other than twisted dogma, coach it in terms of wanting to do it to stop the islamofascists.  To wit, from your example, above:

Feel free to email me if you get a conscience and want real information. Otherwise, i'll have to divert my eyes from this psychotic attempt to drag down one of the very few politicians we have that has the spine to beat back an existential attack from the Islamic fascists and Far Eastern communists.

Goodness knows those EXISTENTIAL attacks from the islamofascists and communists (makes me nostalgic for the Cold War) can be tricky to deal with ...

The jihadi justification is the moral equivalent of those folks who try to push any agenda they have and use the phrase "but what about the children" to attempt it.

"We can't drill in ANWR, we need to save such pristine wilderness for OUR CHILDREN"* ...

"I don't think gun ownership is a good idea, it can HURT THE CHILDREN" ...

"Global Warming needs to be dealt with before we destroy the planet, DEPRIVING OUR CHILDREN."

... And so on and so on ...

Such a rhetorical sucker punch (because who's going to refuse anything FOR THE CHILDREN and WHO WANTS THE ISLAMOFASCISTS TO WIN?) should be recognized for what it is, a vain attempt to push through an agenda at any cost.  It's a last-ditch attempt by many who don't have any other leg to stand on in their attempts to reason.

}:)     [*How many of our children are journeying to northern Alaska to see such pristine wilderness?]

661 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 12:40:00pm

re: #635 Wonder95

Sorry Charles, but there are more holes in evolutionary theory than you and your articles seem to want to admit. For example, probably one of the biggest holes in the origin of life is the issue of homochirality. Evolutionary biology has yet to come close to coming up with a mechanism for this, and without it, life doesn't exist.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for this, but in the midst of the flames, I'm sure I won't see a good explanation for that issue, or any of the other myriad of issues that plague evolutionary theory (theory being the key word).

Cluebat: evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.  Hence, when talking about evolution, the origins of life is a non-issue.  As a non-issue, of course it won't be addressed.  You may, if you're sufficiently indignant at this, work up a good head of steam over it, but that doesn't change the fact.

Oh, and sorry I didn't flame you, but I don't do that on the first date.

}:)     [Buh-bye ... ]

662 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 12:45:45pm

re: #643 preacherwes

I have not had the opportunity to read many of the comments, but the biggest thing missing from the OOL discussion is, "Where did the life come from in the first place?"
There are far too many gaps in any fossil record to prove or disprove MACRO evolution, but everyone can agree that micro evolution is a fact. However, even if you concede the LCA argument, where and how did life originate. If it is a single celled organism, the basic genetic structure contains complex packets of information. Where did that information come from? Why has no one been able to produce life from inert amino acids?
Evolution does not answer anything, it just pushes the question to an earlier date.

Cluebat boilerplate: evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.  Hence, when talking about evolution, the origins of life is a non-issue.  As a non-issue, of course it won't be addressed.  You may, if you're sufficiently indignant at this, work up a good head of steam over it, but that doesn't change the fact.

}:)     [I think we're going to need a rubber stamp here ... or semiphores ... ]

663 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 12:48:23pm
re: #645 Sharmuta
re: #640 Charles

Yeah- but now I'm bathroom wall graffiti, I think.

In the men's room, there are worse places to be than the wall.

}:)     [Ya gotta trust me on this one!]

664 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 12:53:43pm
re: #659 J.S.
re: #657 FinnAgain

Nick so distorts the term "evolution" that it could refer to any kind of change. (Might also wonder if the manner in which the term "evolve" is used, by Nick, that it doesn't also imply, "change for the better" -- or "progress" -- now that's once again, troubling...)

Maybe Nick has never evolved.

}:)     [Hey, Nick, it only hurts a little, at first, then you're rid of that pesky tail!]

665 preacherwes  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 1:27:49pm

re: #662 Kulhwch
Cluebat boilerplate: evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.  Hence, when talking about evolution, the origins of life is a non-issue.  As a non-issue, of course it won't be addressed.  You may, if you're sufficiently indignant at this, work up a good head of steam over it, but that doesn't change the fact.

The only difference between our positions is that I understand the underpinning of my position, ie faith. You and Sal have stated theories as if they were facts. The origin of life is at the heart of evolution and that is the point I was trying to make. You may get indignant and childish, but if you follow the logic of evolution to its end, you still have to explain how the inorganic chains became organic. Sal said, "The single celled organism is itself the product of much evolution. Now I KNOW that you didn't read the thread-anchoring article. And our producing life from amino acids would neither prove nor disprove anything concerning the archaic natural steps toward life." My question, was and is when you take the evolutionary process to the origin point, where did the spark of life arise. It is the whole point behind ID, something placed the information in the first cell. I guarantee if we had or could produce life, it would be front page above the fold on every major paper.

I did read the original article, just not the comments, as noted in my post. Having a different reaction to an article is no proof of my inability to hold a logical position.

666 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 1:42:42pm

re: #665 preacherwes

Cluebat boilerplate: evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.  Hence, when talking about evolution, the origins of life is a non-issue.  As a non-issue, of course it won't be addressed.  You may, if you're sufficiently indignant at this, work up a good head of steam over it, but that doesn't change the fact.

The only difference between our positions is that I understand the underpinning of my position, ie faith.

My position is standing, yours is kneeling.  I understand that very well.  But your point is what?

You and Sal have stated theories as if they were facts.

That is a lie, I have never stated a theory.  I've mentioned many, but never stated them.  Try again.

The origin of life is at the heart of evolution and that is the point I was trying to make.

And that point is bullshit, expounded by IDiots showing their true colors.  Which word of this did you not grasp so I can find a new, smaller, word that you might understand:

Cluebat boilerplate: evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.  Hence, when talking about evolution, the origins of life is a non-issue.  As a non-issue, of course it won't be addressed.  You may, if you're sufficiently indignant at this, work up a good head of steam over it, but that doesn't change the fact.

You may get indignant and childish, but if you follow the logic of evolution to its end, you still have to explain how the inorganic chains became organic.

Looks like projection to me.  Tsk, you're a sad case and I shall certainly pray for you.  I understand your frustration, it's hard not to get what you want.  Next time, try not to bring a knife to a gun fight.

Sal said, "The single celled organism is itself the product of much evolution.

And I look like Sal to you? <sotto voice aside> Hey, hand me another cluebat, I may need it ...

Now I KNOW that you didn't read the thread-anchoring article.

And you know this how?  Better run off home, Skippy, your mama's calling you.

And our producing life from amino acids would neither prove nor disprove anything concerning the archaic natural steps toward life." My question, was and is when you take the evolutionary process to the origin point,

... where it's no longer evolultion, but OOL ...

where did the spark of life arise.

What spark of life?

It is the whole point behind ID, something placed the information in the first cell.

It did?  <laughing>

I guarantee if we had or could produce life, it would be front page above the fold on every major paper.

Why?  Births happen every day.

I did read the original article, just not the comments, as noted in my post.

Your lips must truly be tired then.

Having a different reaction to an article is no proof of my inability to hold a logical position.

Yeah?  When you decide to do so, let us know, okay?

}:)     [Buh-bye!]

667 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 1:46:08pm

Ah, finally, I made The Post Of The Beast!

}:)     [Bwahaahaahaa!]

668 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 2:14:13pm

re: #665 preacherwes

Cluebat boilerplate: evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.  Hence, when talking about evolution, the origins of life is a non-issue.  As a non-issue, of course it won't be addressed.  You may, if you're sufficiently indignant at this, work up a good head of steam over it, but that doesn't change the fact.

The only difference between our positions is that I understand the underpinning of my position, ie faith. You and Sal have stated theories as if they were facts.
>
Sal: The fact that you speak as if theories were any less than massively empirically supported in order to gain the designation abundantly demonstrates your lack of fluency in the language of science.
Evolution is a fact. Species change over time - period. And the basic major mechanisms and physical substrates- random mutation and nonrandom environmental selection of traits encoded in DNA - is beyond rational dispute (which apparently does not exclude you). What evolutionary theory is concerned with is refining and elaborating upon these basics, and I fully expect the evolution of evolutionary theory, in response to further clarifying empirical evidence, to continue for the foreseeable future. That process of continuous improvement in response to additional information is, in fact, science's strength - a strength that forever frozen archaic dogmas abjectly lack.
>
The origin of life is at the heart of evolution and that is the point I was trying to make.
>
Sal: If so, it was a mistaken point. The change of life in response to changes in environment is at the heart of evolution.
>
You may get indignant and childish, but if you follow the logic of evolution to its end, you still have to explain how the inorganic chains became organic.
>
Sal: Umm, wouldn't that be following it to its beginning - and beyond?
>
Sal said, "The single celled organism is itself the product of much evolution. Now I KNOW that you didn't read the thread-anchoring article. And our producing life from amino acids would neither prove nor disprove anything concerning the archaic natural steps toward life." My question, was and is when you take the evolutionary process to the origin point, where did the spark of life arise. It is the whole point behind ID, something placed the information in the first cell. I guarantee if we had or could produce life, it would be front page above the fold on every major paper.
>
Sal: Although the stepwise transition to life from nonlife is more of an analog slope than it is a digital cliff, my sense is that, as far as the article that anchors this thread asserts, life arose when the first compounds capable of replication evolved from prior compounds capable of only budding self-similar isomers, and the article has much empirical evidence in support of such a contention. Nothing necessarily had to kick-spark that life into being. I do not claim that it is impossible that something in fact DID pull such a kick-spark (for such a claim would be a religious contention, and not a scientific one); I merely claim that it is not necessary that something did for it to have happened. You are free to disagree, and claim the absolute necessity of your cosmic lifesparker, however, unlike in science, you are enable to provide a single whit of evidence for your claim, nor can you, because it is not a scientific assertion, but a sectarian religious contention.
>
I did read the original article, just not the comments, as noted in my post. Having a different reaction to an article is no proof of my inability to hold a logical position.


>
Sal: No, a different reaction to the article does not prove that you are incapable of holding a logical position; however, your comments in this thread indicate that your position in this instance is indeed riddled with illogicalities.

669 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 2:18:49pm

#668:

enable should be unable.

PIMF

670 preacherwes  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 2:44:40pm

re: #668 Salamantis
Sal, You made more sense in your last post than most of the people I come into contact with. I had not thought through the idea that evolution and OOL might be disconnected in anyones mind, because they seem to be links in a chain.
For me, one question begs the other and most of the people I have had this debate with were not trying to make a scientific point, they were trying to discredit ID, which is not the same thing at all.
I accept that my argument is riddled with illogical points, but I really was trying to ask questions, not spout dogma. I have similar disputes with young earthers, because if "God" really created everything 4400 years ago, he created the universe with an appearance of age that I cannot logically accept. I do not "need" a sparker, it just makes more sense in my mind.
Thanks

671 Josephine  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 3:54:38pm

re: #652 Sharmuta

You did well, Shar.

672 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 4:20:32pm

re: #671 Josephine

Thanks, Josephine. I think someone over there is a little miffed I haven't been flushed yet.

673 transient  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 5:13:55pm

re: #671 Josephine, Sharmuta

You did well, Shar.

I'll second that.
I also got a laugh out of someone's mistaking your name as Sharmutra. Whore/sex goddess?!


re: #657 FinnAgain

After seeing his 'rebuttal' to Sharm, I honestly can't see it that way. He honestly seemed to be saying that LGF turns away pro-Israel people who just 'see things differently' and that since many would feel that LGF's pro-Israel policies "will not benefit Israel in the way LGF claims they will" that LGF isn't actually in support of Israel.

Sounds like you're right. Must be one of those folks who believes in "tough love." A real Zionist wants to leave Israel defenseless.
/

674 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 5:27:40pm

re: #673 transient

I also got a laugh out of someone's mistaking your name as Sharmutra. Whore/sex goddess?!

Damn- now my secret is out! ;)

675 FinnAgain  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 5:39:51pm

Okay, now I'm totally paying attention.

/

P.S. I do like 'removing the comment isn't deleting it, we're just wishing it to the cornfield so we don't have to see it, respond to it or deal with it. Totally not like that fascist censoring BS over at LGF.'

676 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 5:51:10pm

re: #675 FinnAgain

Yes- they're so.....nuanced.

677 J.S.  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 7:32:50pm

re: #665 preacherwes

"It is the whole point behind ID, something placed the information in the first cell."

do you know what a "cell" is? go look it up...

678 irish rose  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 8:04:23pm

I leave for the weekend, and look what I come back to.... ;).

679 finnagain  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 8:43:41pm

re: #678 irish rose

... no you are!

680 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 9:32:15pm
re: #677 J.S.
re: #665 preacherwes

"It is the whole point behind ID, something placed the information in the first cell."

do you know what a "cell" is? go look it up...

Wet cell or dry cell?  Either one will hold a 'spark'.  I'm an Ever Ready man myself.

}:)     [You know if you hit me because of this, you've committed battery ... ]

681 FinnAgain  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 9:49:23pm

re: #680 Kulhwch

I'm an Ever Ready man myself.

Man, everybody's laying it on thick for the Lizard ladies in this thread.
;)

682 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 6, 2008 10:07:57pm
re: #681 FinnAgain
re: #680 Kulhwch

I'm an Ever Ready man myself.

Man, everybody's laying it on thick for the Lizard ladies in this thread.
;)

All I'm doing is trying to get a clutch of eggs, is that too much to ask?  So you're saying a nice dead mouse as a gift probably wouldn't do me any good?

}:)     [Drat.  Lovelorn Lizard Angst ... ]

683 soccerdad  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 5:52:12am

re: #658 Kulhwch

}:)     [How odd ... ]

No, I never told anyone not to back Charles. Read it again, and again and again, if necessary until you make sure you have the bubble before attacking, please. Thanks.

684 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 6:30:44am
re: #683 soccerdad
re: #658 Kulhwch
re: #633 soccerdad
re: #564 FurryOldGuyJeans
I don't understand the obsession some people have with telling Charles what he can or can't do on HIS blog. Give it a rest, will ya?
Yeah -- see # 55 above. You're late to the party.

You mean the post in which you told people not to back Charles?

When one is only going to spout a tautology or engage in 'defending' our Lizard overlord (like HE needs defending), it would be much better to forego the urge to engage said QWERTY mechanism.

}:) [How odd ... ]

No, I never told anyone not to back Charles. Read it again, and again and again, if necessary until you make sure you have the bubble before attacking, please. Thanks.

If you say so, though it's hardly an attack.  Clarification was sought and denied.  By the way, I restored the part you cut out, just for the record ...

}:)     [ ... I feel better if I can see everything that was discussed.]

685 soccerdad  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:03:11am

re: #684 Kulhwch

If you say so, though it's hardly an attack.  Clarification was sought and denied.  By the way, I restored the part you cut out, just for the record ...

}:)     [ ... I feel better if I can see everything that was discussed.]

For the record, I didn't CUT anything out. I simply chose the 'quote' button; what came in, came in. Talk to Charles about its functionality and yes -- I'm much lazier than you. If you want to see everything that was discussed, simply do a CTRL+F and type in 'soccerdad'. there's not that much.

Simple re-cap for ya --
1) I questioned the thread topic.
2) Some people chose to respond to me with reasoned responses and tried to answer my queries.
3) Others simply told me to either move on or "It's HIS blog (e.g.the defense of our lizard overlord) and he can write what he wants."
4) #13 was one of the former, reasoned responses.
5) I was attempting to chastise a knee-jerk, non productive response with an attempt at witticism. Perhaps I missed.

686 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:07:40pm

re: #685 soccerdad

No need to carry on.  You questioned the topic and told Charles to stop doing it.  You told other people if they wanted to defend Charles that they shouldn't do it.  When someone questioned why people would even try to tell Charles what to do, said someone not agreeing with the creationist stance, you 'chastised' them; and continued to be rude even when referring to their response in other responses.  And of course those who agreed with you, you in turn thought responded well and were civil to.

I appreciate your devotion to your cause.  I don't see a reason to wig-out about it, though.

}:)     [Your mileage, of course, may vary ... ]

687 Jimmah  Wed, Jul 9, 2008 3:02:18am

re: #629 Right of Left

Ah....sorry bout dat. I guess I'm just so used to seeing quibbles over the exact definition of species/creationists being misused by ID'ers to promote their bs.

688 Jimmah  Wed, Jul 9, 2008 3:03:22am

re: #687 Jimmah

Ah....sorry bout dat. I guess I'm just so used to seeing quibbles over the exact definition of species being misused by ID'ers/creationists to promote their bs.

fixed.


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