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New York Times: We're the Deciders

Mon, Jul 7, 2008 at 8:51:41 am PDT

The New York Times’ empty suit ombudsman Clark Hoyt grapples with the issue of whether the Times acted ethically, by deliberately “outing” the CIA operative who interrogated Khalid Shaikh Mohammed.

Of course, Hoyt decides the Times is blameless.

The Public Editor - Weighing the Risk - Op-Ed - NYTimes.com.

Notice that in the worldview of the New York Times, there are essentially no circumstances at all in which they would have withheld this information.

To call what they’re doing “weighing the risk” is ludicrous. A better phrase would be “weighing the potential profit.”

TWO weeks ago, over the objections of his lawyer and the Central Intelligence Agency, The Times named the interrogator who used shrewd psychology, not rough stuff, to get Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, to talk.

The interrogator and his family fear that the newspaper has endangered their lives, and many readers asked why The Times could not have withheld his name. Suzanne Dupre of Evanston, Ill., said she was shocked by The Times’s decision. Deuce Martinez “was loyally serving his country in a dangerous job,” she wrote. “The Times has made him a marked man.”

Scott Shane, the reporter, and his editors said that using the name was necessary for credibility. [Because the New York Times NEVER uses anonymous sources, right? – ed.] Martinez was, after all, the central character in the story. They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda.

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185 comments

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1 me  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:51:57am

ah here we go !

2 me  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:52:58am

all the new's that's fit to profit !

3 debutaunt  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:53:02am

What Will Cognito Say?

4 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:53:08am

I was once offered a free issue of the NYT. I had to tell the person offering that I didn't own a bird.

5 me  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:53:17am

pimf (sp: news)

6 Tilly  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:53:48am

I would love to see the whole crew tried for treason. Hope springs eternal!

7 tommygum  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:53:53am

Treasonous scum.

8 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:54:06am
9 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:54:27am
Scott Shane, the reporter, and his editors said that using the name was necessary for credibility.

PFFFTTTTtttttt! News flash to the nty- you don't have any "credibility".

10 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:54:37am
11 FrogMarch  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:54:48am

The left-wing New York Times can ES&D.

12 tommygum  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:56:02am

Credibility?! Chutzpah!

13 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:56:08am
They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda.

Check out the big brain on Clark! "We blew lots of other people's covers, too, so this guy will be no worse off than they are."

14 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:56:08am
15 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:56:19am

They have never seen a problem with leaking sensitive stuff they get their paws on if it damages American interest.

What a disgrace.

16 Syrah  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:56:23am

The interrogator's' identity should never have been released so that the Times could get it.

Security sure ain't what it used to be when I was in that world.

17 sonofsheldon  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:56:41am

After weighing the risks . . . to themselves . . . they realized there were none. Risks to anyone else? Who cares?

18 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:56:44am

re: #8 NJDhockeyfan

New York Times Company stock...5 year history.

That's quite a nose-dive.

19 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:56:46am
A better phrase would be “weighing the potential profit.”

Political impact, more than straight out profit, methinks.

20 tommygum  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:56:56am

ES&D! One of my favorites.

21 chinesearithmetic  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:57:03am

The Times' gourmet readership will swallow anything.

22 zmdavid  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:57:15am
They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda.


Did they look for evidence that he would be in greater danger than those who have not been publicly named yet? He would obviously be in less danger if no one knew his name.

23 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:57:25am
24 Lawrence Schmerel  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:57:31am

Will there ever be any consequences for the New York Times?

25 seekeroftruth  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:57:33am

NYT is putting this man and his family in danger to sell newspapers.
Absolutely disgusting in every way.

26 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:57:35am

This says as much about those who are leaking the information to the Times as the Times' editorial choices.

The leakers are playing politics with national security and are likely violating federal law in the process.

The Times is enabling the leakers by providing an outlet for their leaks. They are not blameless. They have responsibility for what they print.

And no one voted them the right to make this information available for the world to see - and for this person's identity to be outed.

27 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:57:38am

re: #13 Occasional Reader

Check out the big brain on Clark! "We blew lots of other people's covers, too, so this guy will be no worse off than they are."

My brain wanted to stop working when I read that bit. Inconceivable.

28 beens21  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:57:47am

when will Valerie Plame complain? or all her supporters?

29 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:58:16am

re: #24 Lawrence Schmerel

Will there ever be any consequences for the New York Times?

Look at No. 8. Consequences are happening.

30 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:58:20am

Ah, maybe this is it. I asked twice on the DT whether or not the NYT has come out with another
"hit piece" on Obama, as the talking heads on Fox mentioned something about the Times today - though it was in reference to Obama though.
Course, then the folks at Fox went to the important news of the day: A-Rod's divorce!

BTW, how come the NYT uses "Annonymous" sources all the time but felt obliged to release Deuce's name to the World (or at least the teeny segment of the World that actually reads the Times anymore)?

31 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:58:27am
32 Happy Fun Ball  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:58:27am

re: #10 taxfreekiller

They appear to be in a death spiral even now. Gee, can't imagine why....


heh

33 Syrah  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:58:28am

re: #28 beens21

when will Valerie Plame complain? or all her supporters?

Let them eat yellow cake.

34 FrogMarch  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:58:49am

re: #24 Lawrence Schmerel

Will there ever be any consequences for the New York Times?


Yes. See #8.

35 BignJames  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:59:04am

Why don't they identify the leakers that are the "anonymous sources" for many of their stories. All they'd lose is their jobs.

36 zmdavid  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:59:10am

re: #26 lawhawk

Maybe they aren't playing politics, maybe they are genuine enemy spies.

37 FrogMarch  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:59:29am

Valerie Plame and her lying husband are sacred cows. Don't touch.

38 tommygum  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:59:45am

re: #33 Syrah

Let them eat yellow cake.

LOL!

39 'Nam Grunt  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 8:59:47am

Why is that liberals play the victim card and try to spin their way out of everything when they are presented with facts? Cause they're schtooopid!

40 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:00:03am

re: #28 beens21 A hundred updings for that one if I could!

41 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:00:07am

NYT... all the print that is fit to be news.

42 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:00:29am

re: #20 tommygum

ES&D! One of my favorites.

Also pronounced ESAD.

43 jcm  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:00:40am

Fitzgerald convenes a grand jury in .....

44 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:00:43am
45 tommygum  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:00:44am

Liberals suck in every conceivable way.

46 profitsbeard  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:00:45am

How nice.

The outed CIA agent (Plame outrage by Times, anyone?), according to these traitorous weasels, is not in "any greater danger" than the other people whose names have been outed to the media.

That'll surely make the agent sleep a lot better.

The Times has decided he's as expendible as anyone else Al Qaeda desperately wants to kill.

The New York Times Treason.

47 abolitionist  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:00:59am

Fourteen mentions.

I think this response is appropriate:

New York Times: We're the Deciders traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors, traitors.

48 ronaldusmagnus  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:01:07am

"They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda."

Clueless. Just clueless.

49 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:01:21am

re: #43 jcm

Fitzgerald convenes a grand jury in .....

So long as it's to indict Blago, Fitz can convene as many grand juries as he wants.

50 Ojoe  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:01:28am

What is the penalty for treason?

Should it be what, these days?

Do we live in a new fairyland where nothing can ever go wrong?

51 Neo Con since 9-11  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:01:29am
They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda.


This is their grand defense? The NYT claims that they have put other intelligence agents in just as much danger as Martinez. It wasn't right when they released the names of "scores of other" agents . It ain't right now.

52 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:01:49am

"Weighing the risks" What Bullshit

53 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:02:21am

So....if shrewd psychology was used, does that mean that KSM was NOT waterboarded? Will SCOTUS have to rule on "shrewd psychology"?

54 Crimsonfisted  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:02:37am

I found this delicious:

Decline and fall of the New York Times (cont.)

Once upon a time, and not that long ago, it meant something if your book was reviewed in The New York Times Book Review. A Times review imparted a vital existential certification as well as a commercial boost. Is that still the case? Less and less, I believe. The Times in general has lost influence as the paper has receded into parochial, left-liberal boosterism and politically correct reportage. And where its news and comment have become increasingly politicized, its cultural coverage has become increasingly superficial and increasingly captive of establishment, i.e., left-liberal, pieties and "lifestyle" radicalism.

55 'Nam Grunt  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:02:55am

NYT bosses should all be put in prison and maybe they'll marry new guys to keep them happy, assholes!

56 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:03:05am

re: #4 Sharmuta

I was once offered a free issue of the NYT. I had to tell the person offering that I didn't own a bird.

It is useful for puppies as well, but all our dogs are beyond that stage, so I'd refuse, too. Although we do own birds as well.

57 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:03:41am
58 darkster2400  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:03:43am

Is there no shame or sense of propriety anymore, let alone a concern for someone's life and safety - especially someone serving their country in a life and death struggle?

To the same end, (and on the topic of a major pet peeve of mine) I'm surprised that even though Seymour Hersh was only born in 1937, he did not write articles for his elementary school newspaper exposing, among other things, the Manhattan Project, Ultra, the deceptions about D-Day, and all the activities of the various underground fighters in Europe and the Pacific - all in the name of journalistic integrity, of course.

What a world

59 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:03:57am

re: #48 ronaldusmagnus
You say clueless, I say malignant. The NYT damn well knew what it was doing.
If it wasn't so friendly to the terrorists, the NYT wouldn't publish the names of their reporters or editorial staff. Or would use pseudonyms.

60 loppyd  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:03:59am

These are the same people who lost their sh*t over Valerie Plame

Pot, meet kettle.

61 nyc redneck  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:04:01am

this is not going to go over w/ most of the public who see ksm as a real threat to their lives.
he is a head chopping monster and the man who interrogated him successfully should have his identity protected.
the nyt is so out of touch w/ reality.
their days are numbered.

62 Russkilitlover  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:04:02am

re: #39 'Nam Grunt

Why is that liberals play the victim card and try to spin their way out of everything when they are presented with facts? Cause they're schtooopid!

No - they think WE are. And sadly, many do not disappoint.

63 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:06:09am

re: #55 'Nam Grunt
Hey 'Nam - I think you put an unnecessary comma in there - right between "happy" and "assholes".
Just sayin'............

64 RedPepper  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:06:10am

re: #37 FrogMarch

Valerie Plame and her lying husband are sacred cows. Don't touch.

“Sacred cows make the best hamburger.” ~ Mark Twain

65 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:06:19am

Dear Suzanne Dupre of Evanston, Ill.,

We here at the new york times would like to thank you concerning your recent letter concerning the identity of Deuce Martinez. While we understand you feel we have "made him a marked man" be rest assured that we don't really care.

Sincerely, the new york times

P.S. Would you care to renew your subscription? Please? We're desperate.

66 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:06:22am

re: #4 Sharmuta

I was once offered a free issue of the NYT. I had to tell the person offering that I didn't own a bird.

I'd have to refuse too. Newspaper does not make for good kitty litter.

67 zmdavid  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:06:33am
They said that nobody provided evidence


I wonder how hard they looked.

68 loppyd  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:06:35am

re: #30 realwest

{realwest}

Here you go, handsome.

NYT editorial

69 Crimsonfisted  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:06:41am

re: #56 Kosh's Shadow

It is useful for puppies as well, but all our dogs are beyond that stage, so I'd refuse, too. Although we do own birds as well.

Also useful for in the chimney starter for the grill.

We were informed our subscription is cancelled, because they will not deliver where we live anymore.

70 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:07:10am
TWO weeks ago, over the objections of his lawyer and the Central Intelligence Agency, The Times named the interrogator who used shrewd psychology, not rough stuff, to get Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks, to talk.


From what I remember, this is complete bullshit. KSM only talked after being waterboarded. Detainees aren't waterboarded as a last option. Is it the NYT's position that KSM wasn't waterboarded?

71 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:07:15am

re: #65 Sharmuta

What's a lady from Evanston reading the NYT for anyway? It's a local NYC paper. She'd be better off with the Trib.

72 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:07:25am
73 cjstavern  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:07:42am

This kind of hypocrisy is beyond my comprehension. The Times wanted Bush, Cheney, Rove, etc... tarred and feathered for "outing" a secretary named Valerie Plame but it's ok for them to do the exact same thing? And in this instance it really was a CIA operative not some desk jockey at Langley.

74 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:07:45am

re: #57 taxfreekiller
Ah, thanks my friend - I haven't read it in probably 20 years now.
Sunday edition used to have some real news about stuff happening in the City, museums and stuff but otherwise, nothing worth talking, much less reading, about.

75 'Nam Grunt  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:08:02am

Obama is going to accept his coronation as the New Messiah at Broncos Stadium, 76k moonbats, I can't wait, the more the merrier for a slam dunk riot, hope the paper mache dragon makes it there from the NYC march. Poor Denver cops! LOL

76 Ornery Ballsack  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:08:07am

The NYT would like to apologize to Deuce Martinez.....that they did not have his address or they would have published it & a map to his house.

77 sparrowlake  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:08:40am

No good Times
No bad Times
There no Times at all...

78 loppyd  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:09:17am

re: #75 'Nam Grunt

Obama is going to accept his coronation as the New Messiah at Broncos Stadium, 76k moonbats, I can't wait, the more the merrier for a slam dunk riot, hope the paper mache dragon makes it there from the NYC march. Poor Denver cops! LOL

But, but, he is MAKING HISTORY!

/

79 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:09:17am

Khalid Sheikh Mohammed's '31 plots'

1. The 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center in New York City that killed six people and injured more than 1,000.

2. The 11 September 2001 attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon in Washington using four hijacked commercial airliners. Nearly 3,000 people were killed.

3. A failed "shoe bomber" operation to bring down two US commercial airliners.

4. The October 2002 attack in Kuwait that killed two US soldiers.

5. The nightclub bombing in Bali, Indonesia that killed 202 people.

6. A plan for a "second wave" of attacks on major US landmarks after 9/11 attacks. Alleged targets included the Library Tower in Los Angeles, the Sears Tower in Chicago, the Plaza Bank building in Seattle and the Empire State Building in New York.

7. Plots to attack oil tankers and US naval ships in the Straits of Hormuz, the Straits of Gibraltar and in Singapore.

8. A plan to blow up the Panama Canal.

9. Plans to assassinate former US presidents including Jimmy Carter.

10. A plot to blow up suspension bridges in New York.

11. A plan to destroy the Sears Tower in Chicago by burning fuel trucks beneath or around it.

12. Plans to "destroy" Heathrow Airport, Canary Wharf and Big Ben in London.

13. A planned attack on "many" nightclubs in Thailand targeting US and British citizens.

14. A plot targeting the New York Stock Exchange and other US financial targets after 9/11.

15. A plan to destroy buildings in Elat, Israel, by using planes flying from Saudi Arabia.

16. Plans to destroy US embassies in Indonesia, Australia and Japan.

17. Plots to destroy Israeli embassies in India, Azerbaijan, the Philippines and Australia.

18. Surveying and financing an attack on an Israeli El-Al flight from Bangkok.

19. Sending several "mujahideen" into Israel to survey "strategic targets" with the intention of attacking them.

20. The November 2002 suicide bombing of a hotel in Mombasa, Kenya, frequented by Israelis. At least 14 people were killed.

21. The failed attempt to shoot down an Israeli passenger jet leaving Mombasa airport with a surface-to-air missile on the same day as the hotel bombing.

22. Plans to attack US targets in South Korea, such as US military bases and nightclubs frequented by US soldiers.

23. Providing financial support for a plan to attack US, British and Jewish targets in Turkey.

24. Surveillance of US nuclear power plants in order to attack them.

25. A plot to attack Nato's headquarters in Europe.

26. Planning and surveillance in a 1995 plan (the "Bojinka Operation") to bomb 12 American passenger jets, most on trans-Pacific Ocean routes.

27. The planned assassination attempt against then-US President Bill Clinton during a mid-1990s trip to the Philippines.

28. "Shared responsibility" for a plot to kill Pope John Paul II while he visited the Philippines.

29. Plans to assassinate Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf.

30. An attempt to attack a US oil company in Sumatra, Indonesia, "owned by the Jewish former [US] Secretary of State Henry Kissinger".

31. The beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl, who was kidnapped in Pakistan in January 2002 while researching Islamist militancy.

80 Iron Fist  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:09:20am

The New York Times is operating as a de facto intellegance arm of al Qaeda. Arrest them all, and put them in Gitmo.

81 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:09:23am

re: #67 zmdavid

I wonder how hard they looked.

And what sort of evidence they would have accepted. That al Qaeda... you know... kills people? I think there's a pretty substantial body of evidence for that proposition.

82 seekeroftruth  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:09:27am

This is what makes me think the journalist source protection laws that are somewheres in congress should be thrown out. The name of the this agent was not necessary to the story. The NYT and their reporter should be legally forced to reveal who is giving them this information to leak.

83 de La Valette  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:09:36am

Did they publish the name of the source who gave them the story and/or our agents' names?

"They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda."

So they expected the Government to provide classified threat data to the NY Times in order to stop them from publishing a story about a classified program. They get their little toe in the pool, and then demand to jump in the deep end.

84 Diamond Bullet  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:09:37am

First of all, the Time is clearly weighing the risk to itself, rather than the interrogator involved.

Second, the CYA article from the obmudsman names about a dozen other people. Great work.

This reminds me of an early article the Times ran from the beginning of the Iraq invasion, where they listed the Iraqi home towns and names of family members of Iraqi translators working with U.S. forces. I've often wondered how many, if any, of those translators survived the resulting reprisals.

85 'Nam Grunt  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:09:48am

re: #63 realwest

Well we all can't be as articulate grammar friendly as you Bro'. LOL

86 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:10:58am

re: #79 SeafoodGumbo

They aren't "plots", they're... hmm... undocumented foreign policy, yeah, that's the ticket.

87 quickjustice  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:11:32am

"They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda."

So the NY Times now seeks to shift burden of proof to those seeking to protect Martinez's identity? And even if we accept that premise, did they even ASK for such evidence?

NY Times reporter Judy Miller did hard time in jail to protect her source in the Valerie Plame case. Now that Judy's departed, the N.Y. Times now is outing people gratuitously? Hmmm. I guess they've caved, and their sources can't trust them any more. Or could it be that outing intelligence operatives is O.K. if it's a target of convenience for the Times?

88 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:11:42am

re: #60 {loppyd} Hi there good looking! You don't understand. "Outting Valerie Plame" was BAD because allegedly the WH authorized it.
Here, although the agent AND the government asked the NYT NOT to "out" an agent, the NYT thought that it might perhaps help their circulation
need to see the light of day.
Course, Plame was a big "Nothing" as an employee of the CIA and this fella apparently helped save American lives. That was his big mistake.

89 wahabicorridor  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:12:18am

And this is a PERFECT example of why there should be no 'shield law' for so-called journalists.

90 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:12:47am

re: #79 SeafoodGumbo

9. Plans to assassinate former US presidents including Jimmy Carter.

Man, what an ingrate.

91 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:13:28am

re: #68 loppyd
Futz, you have to be a member to use your link and that's something I wouldn't do even if the NYT had a "scoop" on bin Laden.

92 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:13:31am

For a local paper, they sure like to massage their egos with stories like this. The NYT would be better off covering NYC stories only.

93 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:13:48am

re: #86 Occasional Reader

They aren't "plots", they're... hmm... undocumented foreign policy, yeah, that's the ticket.

Hehe. You've got the euphemism just right there.

94 Hard Right  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:13:58am

Hapy little death throes
(Bob Ross parody)

95 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:14:13am

re: #72 taxfreekiller
AMEN to that one, brother.

96 quickjustice  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:14:52am

Now that we know who Martinez is, we should be celebrating the guy as a hero!

97 cygnus  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:15:36am

re: #4 Sharmuta

I was once offered a free issue of the NYT. I had to tell the person offering that I didn't own a bird.

LOL! Good one!

98 sparrowlake  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:15:48am
99 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:16:04am

re: #79 SeafoodGumbo

8. A plan to blow up the Panama Canal.

And that one makes me nervous. From what I could see when I visited the Miraflores Locks of the Canal this past fall, the Canal is guarded by something like three guys carrying revolvers. I was stunned how little security there was for such a strategic asset.

100 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:17:14am

re: #85 'Nam Grunt Well that may be true, but go back and read it without the comma - you'll catch my drift!

101 Ward Cleaver[deleted]  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:17:57am
102 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:18:25am

re: #4 Sharmuta

I was once offered a free issue of the NYT. I had to tell the person offering that I didn't own a bird.

I used it under my bird once, but when he started swearing up a blue streak I had to take it out.

103 loppyd  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:18:26am

re: #91 realwest

Futz, you have to be a member to use your link and that's something I wouldn't do even if the NYT had a "scoop" on bin Laden.

I'll email it to you. :~)

104 Occasional Reader[deleted]  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:18:32am
105 FrogMarch  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:18:33am

re: #84 Diamond Bullet

First of all, the Time is clearly weighing the risk to itself, rather than the interrogator involved.

Second, the CYA article from the obmudsman names about a dozen other people. Great work.

This reminds me of an early article the Times ran from the beginning of the Iraq invasion, where they listed the Iraqi home towns and names of family members of Iraqi translators working with U.S. forces. I've often wondered how many, if any, of those translators survived the resulting reprisals.

The New York Times is a communist organization. Openly hostile to the interest of these United States and her people.

106 'Nam Grunt  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:19:07am

Why doesn't Murdoch just buy the Times and clean house, his subscription rate would go through the roof, there are more Conservatives than moonbats in the USA, they all live in their basements of Mom's house!

107 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:19:42am

re: #102 Ford_Prefect

I used it under my bird once, but when he started swearing up a blue streak I had to take it out.

Heh. "Polywanna cracker... Polywanna cracker... Polyawanna WHAT?! What is this left-wing crap?! Don't you have any f***g standards?!"

108 nikis-knight  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:19:59am

re: #79 SeafoodGumbo

Well, yeah, but he never waterboarded anybody.

109 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:20:01am

re: #99 Occasional Reader

Andthat one makes me nervous. From what I could see when I visited theMiraflores Locks of the Canal this past fall, the Canal is guarded bysomething like three guys carrying revolvers. I was stunned how littlesecurity there was for such a strategic asset.

This probably ties in with the other plot you quoted in a previous post -- killing former US Presidents, including Jimmy Carter. If Carter hadn't given up the canal, it would probably have better security.

Carter's the poisonous gift that keeps on giving...

110 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:20:15am

re: #107 Occasional Reader

Heh. "Polywanna cracker... Polywanna cracker... Polyawanna WHAT?! What is this left-wing crap?! Don't you have any f***g standards?!"

That'd be a hell of a political cartoon.

111 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:20:28am

re: #92 Honorary Yooper
I don't honestly think the NYT has considered itself a NYC paper in ............well maybe forever. They see themselves as the "paper of record" for all the rubes citizens in this country!
That was something of a joke, but I really don't think they consider themselves to be a NYC paper.

112 Iron Fist  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:20:59am

re: #107 Occasional Reader,

I'd use the New York Times to line my bird's cage, but my bird refuses to sully her shit with it.

113 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:21:06am

re: #107 Occasional Reader

Heh. "Polywanna cracker... Polywanna cracker... Polyawanna WHAT?! What is this left-wing crap?! Don't you have any f***g standards?!"

He is definitely a right-wing bird.

114 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:21:44am

re: #111 realwest

They're a sick joke if they think they're a national paper. Funny, I don't know of anybody who reads the New York Times.

115 cygnus  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:21:45am

re: #102 Ford_Prefect

I used it under my bird once, but when he started swearing up a blue streak I had to take it out.

Also, he could get constipated from refusing to defile his poop by letting it fall on the Times.

116 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:23:29am

re: #111 realwest

I don't honestly think the NYT has considered itself a NYC paper in ............well maybe forever. They see themselves as the "paper of record" for all the rubes undocumented citizens in this country!
That was something of a joke, but I really don't think they consider themselves to be a NYC paper.

fixed

117 de La Valette  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:23:34am

Hopefully the environmentalists will drive up the cost of newsprint so their stock drops even further.

118 PaxAmericana  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:24:44am
They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda.

Well, when that danger is atmospherically high, then yes, technically, you can't be in any greater danger.

If it were up to me I would bring a massive civil suit against the Times.

119 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:25:02am

re: #113 Ford_Prefect

He is definitely a right-wing bird.

Two right-wings actually. Keeps flying in circles.

120 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:25:16am

re: #99 Occasional Reader Uh, to be honest with you O.R., the Canal isn't anything remotely like the Strategic Asset it used to be. No US aircraft carriers or Ticonderoga class Cruisers can fit through the locks (and I'm pretty sure that Boomers - US missle subs- can't fit through either). Additionally, none of the supertankers can fit through the canal locks and very few "modern" (built within the last 15 years) freighters can, either.
And even if it was strategic, a few dozen special forces types, with mortars, could hide out in the Triple Canoply Jungle without being found for months and come out and chuck a few mortar rounds and grind the Locks into dust.

121 Burkha, Flies and a Shiekh  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:25:44am

re: #4 Sharmuta

I was once offered a free issue of the NYT. I had to tell the person offering that I didn't own a bird.

The next time they call you, tell them what I did: "No self-respecting parrot would dare soil its own feces using your newspaper as cage liner." Take my word for it, the silence on the other end of the line is most gratifying.

122 nyc redneck  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:26:03am

i knew i hated the nyt even before i knew i was a conservative.
this kind of sneaky low down behavior is wrong. it is so unprincipled.
think of the trouble the nyt has needlessly caused for this man.
that kind of spitefulness is ugly.

123 realwest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:26:20am

re: #104 Occasional Reader Hey, y'all ought to know better than to quote that! Seriously.

124 LeonidasOfSparta  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:27:31am

blah blah blah What a sorry excuse for paper pulp!

(But let someone "out" that useless piece of spent jet trash Valerie Plame and HEADS WILL ROLL!)

125 Spar Kling  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:27:46am

All this agent has to do is denounce the Bush administration and the NYT will print a retraction and post a story how this person actually does a heroic job at the Department of Agriculture locating sources of E. coli contamination.

I'd also suggest that the agent talk with McClellan for advice.

126 OrzBorz  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:34:38am

My school gives out free copies of the NYT and whenever I get a chance I take the whole stack to a trash can--haven't been caught yet!

127 alegrias  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:37:11am

Speaking out OUTING, did you all see 550 tons of uranium yellowcake were removed from Iraq, though icky ambassador Joseph Wilson said Iraq didn't have any yellowcake & whined his wife was outed over his lies?

128 Hard Right  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:38:49am

re: #83 de La Valette

Did they publish the name of the source who gave them the story and/or our agents' names?

"They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda."

So they expected the Government to provide classified threat data to the NY Times in order to stop them from publishing a story about a classified program. They get their little toe in the pool, and then demand to jump in the deep end.

Common sense dictates that he would be in greater danger. No "supporting " info is needed. What scum.

129 melinwy  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:39:05am

re: #83 de La Valette

Did they publish the name of the source who gave them the story and/or our agents' names?

"They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda."

So they expected the Government to provide classified threat data to the NY Times in order to stop them from publishing a story about a classified program. They get their little toe in the pool, and then demand to jump in the deep end.

they would have just published that as well.....
instead of trying to enlighten us with the news they try to enlighten our enemies.....

130 funky chicken  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:40:53am

Anybody interviewed Scooter Libby yet? I mean, this guy doing interrogations in deep cover is obviously not as important as a desk jockey like Val Plame, right?

Actually, the Bush administration/justice department may deserve a treason trial also, IMHO. These leaks and attempts to get more of our troops killed have been happening out of CIA for at least 4 years now, and the Bush admin has been AWOL on stopping them. Yet another idiotic failure on their part.

131 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:50:10am

re: #123 realwest

Hey, y'all ought to know better than to quote that! Seriously.

Oops. Stinky, please delete my quote...

132 HippieforLife  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:52:57am

The NYT thrives on bad news and US bashing. In a column about the poor, misguided at GTMO, a Times columinist, Mr. Kristof, said:

"Yet there were heroes, including civil liberties groups and lawyers for detainees."

That gives us all the true feelings of the NYT. Their "heroes" are the civil liberties groups and lawyers, not our brave men and woman who fight for us daily.

*spit!*

133 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:02:01am

re: #8 NJDhockeyfan

New York Times Company stock...5 year history.

"NJDhf" -

The amazing part is that their stock is still worth more per share than GM or Ford.

-S-

134 Matt  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:08:41am
Shane said he started reporting in March on the interrogation of Mohammed and quickly focused on Martinez, a desk-bound analyst, not a covert spy,

But I thought Valerie Plame was desk-bound and not a covert spy - oh wait... wrong story. Nothing to see here, move along.

135 Amos (Zionist Minion)  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:21:51am

What would happen if the Times outs, say, a family in the witness protection program? Everyone knows there are those out to kill such families. That's why their identity is kept secret.
This case is much the same. It published the identity of a person, thus making him and his family a target.

Their motive is irrelevant. Surely the case can be made that the Times' action increased the danger to lives of this man and his family.

This man should sue the Times out of house and home. Literally, if anyone gets hurt because of the Times' action.

136 de La Valette  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:23:33am

re: #125 Spar Kling

The other way of doing is to put one of the previous days papers (or older) on top of any new pile you see (or in a machine). Most people wont dig down - they will just move on to the next paper.

You don't get dirty and your not "stealing' anything.

137 de La Valette  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:32:37am

Hey from the LinkViewer

Reuters link on Entertainment Stock ratings

Looks like the rest of them are headed down the same path.

138 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:35:08am

re: #4 Sharmuta

I was once offered a free issue of the NYT. I had to tell the person offering that I didn't own a bird.

When that happened to me a while back I told them I use a different brand of toilet paper, one not already full of crap.
-------------------------------------------------- -------------------------
re: #114 Honorary Yooper

They're a sick joke if they think they're a national paper. Funny, I don't know of anybody who reads the New York Times.

Sadly I do, and they think it is one excellent paper. Do I need to mention that they are far-left moonbats? ;)

139 Victrola  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:37:50am

IMHO, it is WAY past time for the President to go all Abraham Lincoln on the collective ass of the Fourth Estate.

140 Windhorse  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:39:01am

re: #8 NJDhockeyfan

Well, they must be doing something right!

/

141 MajorPribluda  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:41:12am

Well, I guess that we will just sit here and take it.

142 Render  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:42:13am

Let's take a look at what kind of articles Scott Shane writes for the NYSlimes...

[Link: topics.nytimes.com...]

Do we see a pattern here? A journalistic career whose entire reason for existence is to publish article defaming, exposing, and otherwise destroying the US intelligence community.

This tongue bath of traitor Phillip Agee's death in Cuba is a perfect example...

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

It appears as though Scott Shanes job sole job is to damage the US intelligence community in print. That's what the NYSlimes pays Scott Shane to do, the truth, honesty, and justice are irrelevant to the stories that Shane writes.

WRAP
AROUND
BLUES,
R

143 MajorPribluda  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:44:22am

re: #139 Victrola

IMHO, it is WAY past time for the President to go all Abraham Lincoln on the collective collectivist ass of the Fourth Estate.


As Will Munny said: "Yeah."

144 Windhorse  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:44:39am

re: #141 MajorPribluda

I, for one, will sit here and disregard it (NYT). Soon, they will be nothing more than a skid mark in the anals annals of history.

145 MajorPribluda  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:46:05am

re: #144 Windhorse

I, for one, will sit here and disregard it (NYT). Soon, they will be nothing more than a skid mark in the anals annals of history.

At this rate, so will we.

146 brent  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:47:09am
They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media for their roles in the war against Al Qaeda.

OK, smartguys - here's why that's wrong, in terms a 5-year old could understand, provided said 5-year old did not fancy himself a budding newsman. If your friends jumped off a bridge, would that make it ok for you?

Not that I'm in any way trying to disuade these soulless traitors from jumping off the bridge, but since when did the standard become "well, the other kids did it"?

147 Windhorse  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:47:28am

re: #145 MajorPribluda

the alternative? Grab our pitchforks and make a beeline for the NYT?

148 MajorPribluda  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:49:13am

re: #147 Windhorse

the alternative? Grab our pitchforks and make a beeline for the NYT?

I refer you to my comment #141.

149 soccerdad  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:49:32am

re: #8 NJDhockeyfan

New York Times Company stock...5 year history.


PERFECT! Thanks for sharing.

150 Windhorse  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:50:34am

re: #148 MajorPribluda

I know.... but I thought you might have another idea on a course of action... (ie. instead of just sitting around and taking it)?

151 MajorPribluda  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:53:12am

re: #150 Windhorse

I know.... but I thought you might have another idea on a course of action... (ie. instead of just sitting around and taking it)?

Sorry, not I. I guess we'll just sit here and take it.

Frustrating isn't it? Shaking-with-rage, spit-on-your-own-floor Frustrating.

152 Windhorse  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:53:32am

....but I guess not.

I see that the wheels of commerce have ground to a halt... I must return to my work and get them moving again.

153 MajorPribluda  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:57:18am

re: #152 Windhorse

....but I guess not.

I see that the wheels of commerce have ground to a halt... I must return to my work and get them moving again.

Work harder. 50 million Americans on welfare are counting on you!

154 Clubsec  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 10:59:55am

Much like that dipshit from MA who questioned Cheney's NSA advisor and felt giddy about showing his face to the Jihadi's.
Why not give out his home address and all of his relatives? Oh yea, Osama can just Google that!
Sorry but you folks in Massachuetts have to correct your mistake(s), I suggest you make amends this November.
While Al Queda is quietly adhering to the words of John Milton: "Never interupt your enemy when he is making a mistake."
And now this? ...
Freedom of the Press?
Dammit ... these stupid asses are going to get us killed!

155 krypto  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:01:54am

I doubt that it was driven by weighing the potential profit. The personal identity of the CIA agent was of very little value either in giving a meaningful account or in increasing profit.

The NY Times staff, with their leftist politically correct agenda, is not fond of many aspects government anti-terrorism efforts - it runs counter to their ideology. Outing the identity of a CIA operative works to undermine government's ability to carry out domestic surveillance and gather information in future operations. Whether the CIA agent or his family is placed in any immediate danger, his cover is compromised in any future operation he might be part of.

Seizing upon an opportunity to undermine US intelligence efforts, consistent with their leftist ideology, was probably more of a motive for the NY Times than greed.

156 Outrider  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:03:44am

I'm guessing if the CIA operative had been a Democrat (named Plame perhaps) and his spouse was a player in the party machine and the reporter worked for the Washington Post, then this would have constituted treason in their eyes? Gotta love the consistency of their thought processes.

157 Mostly Annoyed  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:05:45am

I have a great business plan to save the NYT. Fire all the writers and editors. Sell all the presses, purchase a much softer paper and don't print anything on it. Sell it on small rolls. Keep the same name. Home delivery!

Thay might as well switch to producing toilet paper, it's not good for anything else and if they made it softer and did away with the printing it might not be bad for you.

I'm waiting for someone to get killed as a result of one of their articles. They won't be able to hide behind the first amendment when the family sues for wrongful death. Especially when they have it on record that the White House and the CIA asked the not to publish the name. Think their stock is in the toilet now? Wait till a good team of lawyers gets ahold of them.

158 MajorPribluda  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:12:59am

re: #155 krypto

I doubt that it was driven by weighing the potential profit. The personal identity of the CIA agent was of very little value either in giving a meaningful account or in increasing profit.

The NY Times staff, with their leftist politically correct agenda, is not fond of many aspects government anti-terrorism efforts - it runs counter to their ideology. Outing the identity of a CIA operative works to undermine government's ability to carry out domestic surveillance and gather information in future operations. Whether the CIA agent or his family is placed in any immediate danger, his cover is compromised in any future operation he might be part of.

Seizing upon an opportunity to undermine US intelligence efforts, consistent with their leftist ideology, was probably more of a motive for the NY Times than greed.

Agreed.

To those who think it is irrational or hot-headed to say that they are on the other side, I ask: At what point is it irrational to believe that they are *not* on the other side, given the stack of evidence?

From the prurient coverage of Abu Ghraib, the luridly reported Plame non-scandal, the non-reported Joe Wilson scandal (from their own pages, no less!), and the ceaseless moronic repetition of the "16 words" canard, to the sanctimonious compromise of the SWIFT database, and now the vicious targeting of an effective key agent; there is only one thing which all of these stories have in common--they all work to undermine our ability to prosecute this war.

My contempt for these domestic enemies surpasses profanity.

159 lifeofthemind  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:13:45am

This is not the NYT Abe Rosenthal knew.

Aren't there lawyers out there who can sue these imbeciles and take their toys away?

160 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:15:06am

I apologize for my comment #101; I should have known better.

161 MajorPribluda  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:17:02am

re: #159 lifeofthemind

This is not the NYT Abe Rosenthal knew.

Aren't there lawyers out there who can sue these imbeciles and take their toys away?

I can only take solace in the fact that slowly but surely, Capitalism is crushing these Communist hacks.

Soon, these whores will have to reform or succumb.

So to speak.

162 MajorPribluda  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:19:34am

re: #160 Ward Cleaver

I apologize for my comment #101; I should have known better.


I don't know what you said (and was apparently quoted in #104?), but I can imagine. I refer you to my comment #141.

163 illegal upchuck  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:21:48am

re: #71 Honorary Yooper

What's a lady from Evanston reading the NYT for anyway? It's a local NYC paper. She'd be better off with the Trib.


Evanston is awash, nay, flooded with L3.

164 norar  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:29:07am
Scott Shane, the reporter, and his editors said that using the name was necessary for credibility.

Does it mean that "our sources at ..." will not be used by NYT anymore?

165 ProUSA  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:35:03am

I guess the NYT sees nothing wrong with deliberately outing CIA operatives.

Can we say they "Plamed" the operative? Joe Wilson's CIA wife wasn't even an operative when her identity became a national crisis for the NYT.

166 HDrepub  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:40:16am

Let me see if I got this right now. The NY Slimes and its liberal friends feel someone ought to be hung, drawn and quarterd for treason in "outing" Valerie Plame, when half of Washington knew she worked for the CIA, albeit a desk jockey, but no wrong is done outing a real bona-fide agent. The old double standard applies again, one for us and one for "the others".

167 ChattyMik  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 11:58:56am

the hypocrisy of the NYT's. It all has to do with Bush derangement syndrome, if they can do anything to damage this administration, they will do it. No matter what it cost to the nation. They are the traitors to the US. Ideology trumps honor.

168 AZDave  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 12:01:58pm

re: #29 MandyManners

Look at No. 8. Consequences are happening.

But it's not happening fast enough!

169 kansas  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 12:10:33pm

So when Barack is the POTUS will the NY Times become more responsible?

170 Arbalest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 12:44:50pm

Let us, for once, do a proper edit of the NYT, or rather Ombudsman Clark Hoyt’s opinion; when satisfactorally edited for informational content and to remove the distractive butt-covering, looks like this (about ½ page; ‘...’ indicates an edited sentence; emphasis mine):
----------
TWO weeks ago, over the objections of his lawyer and the Central Intelligence Agency, The Times named the interrogator who used shrewd psychology, not rough stuff, ...

The interrogator and his family fear that the newspaper has endangered their lives, and many readers asked why The Times could not have withheld his name.

Scott Shane, the reporter, and his editors said that using the name was necessary for credibility.
They said that nobody provided evidence that Martinez would be in any greater danger than the scores of others who have been identified in the news media ...

The Times gave a brief explanation of its reasoning in an online Editors’ Note, but it did not tell readers that, because Martinez was so worried, it was not using his first name, only his nickname, or that it had alerted him to a Web site where he had posted a great deal of personal information, which was taken down before the article was published.

Shane said he repeatedly pressed the C.I.A. for more information. He called John Kiriakou, a former covert operative ... Kiriakou voluntarily went public last December, and Shane wanted to know what happened. Kiriakou mentioned a death threat published in Pakistan and didn’t go into much more detail. Kiriakou said he advised Shane not to use the name.

When I asked Kiriakou ... , he said he received more than a dozen death threats, many of them crank. ...
He said he lost his job with a major accounting firm because executives expressed fear that Al Qaeda could attack its offices to get him, ...

Bennett said he offered to vouch on the record for his client’s role ... . Shane does not recall that offer, but Baquet said he would have rejected it.

And The Times took reasonable precautions to prevent Martinez from being easily found.

In preparing this column, I consulted with Bob Steele, an ethicist ...
----------

Almost out of room for my comments.

Note the basic and inherent one-sided-ness of the NYT’s decision process. Fairness for the NYT consists of speaking for the other side, but in a “one-one punch” sort of way; the outcome is never in doubt.

Now, for intellectual honesty, go back and read the original. It’s now easier to see past Hoyt’s distractions.

Hoyt, by his writing, takes opinions from people at face value, or dismisses them outright, and his action seems to depend only on who the source of the opinion is. He seems to be not even trying to be fair or even complete in evaluating the facts.

Hoyt's appeal to ethics is laughable; The National Enquirer is a more ethical publication, if for no other reason than they make no bones about what they do.

171 TheHardHat  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 12:45:09pm

When is the administration going to grow a pair and start making it known that treason is punishable by death?

Never have I seen such a useless feckless President.

172 Arbalest  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 12:53:16pm

Now, let’s do the same for Bob Steele’s (Nelson Poynter Scholar for Journalism Values) piece, as invoked by Hoyt (again, emphasis mine, but my comments in regular type):
----------
. . . the paper's commitment to reporting the story as fully and accurately as possible found itself in conflict with another important journalistic principle: minimizing harm to vulnerable stakeholders.

The paper said it weighed its assessment of those risks against its editors’ judgment that “the name was necessary for the credibility and completeness of the article.”

What process did the NYT use? This:

- A duty to report accurate, precise and substantive information about a significant issue and event
- An obligation to seriously consider and weigh the consequences to a key stakeholder (Martinez) who is described as very vulnerable to harm
A responsibility to protect journalistic independence in the face of pressure to withhold a key element (Martinez’s name) from the story

When were these principles voted into law? How many of the public got to vote for or against them?


Based on the Editors’ Note, I believe that The Times gave significant consideration to multiple requests that . . .

An opinion. Given the full texts of the NYT article, and the full text of what Steele has written so far (i.e., evidence), this seems doubtfully true.


So, it comes down to assessing the potential safety risk to Deuce Martinez and his family if he is identified in the story.

Since when is a journalist competent to make such a decision?

Since when does any hireling have the right to make such a decision?


That becomes a judgment call. Gather all the facts possible. Verify and scrutinize and make sense of those facts. . . . Identify and recognize various motives of the stakeholders, including the journalists. Examine and challenge any assumptions.

"including the journalists."? Ok, who challenges the assumption that journalists should have a say in endangering anyones life? The line starts here.

Then explore various possible actions — a minimum of three alternatives is essential — and make a good decision. In this case, The Times could use his full name, use no name at all or use his surname but shield his identity at least partially by substituting his nickname for his given name and withholding family information.

Actually, the NYT could use his full name a pseudonym. This isn’t a new idea, and it seems to be “journalistically” acceptable. Why was this option not considered?


In the end, this case comes down to a judgment call.

Who voted the NYT or any newspaper or any journalist (two-fisted, hard-nosed or not) or any big ol’ editor (even with a flat top, seegar and severe ego), judge or jury?

Ethics is about principles and process. Well-intentioned, thoughtful people can and will disagree.

Ha. Ha. Ethics is about Right and Wrong. While a cultural concept, ethics are not subject to the whims of a self-appointed ‘leet. Right and Wrong are beyond the wit and wisdom of journalists and, judging by their written arguments, “ethicists” as well.

To be intellectually honest, judging by the behavior of the NYT, this behavior is simply not permitted, at least not to those who disagree with the party line.

Evidence:
Exhibit One: The content of the front page and Op/Ed sections of the NYT
Exhibit Two: The stock performance of the NYT (last 5 years)
Exhibit Three: Layoffs in the industry (LATimes, certain political radio programs)

173 justadot  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 1:23:47pm

re: #171 TheHardHat

Never have I seen such a useless feckless President.

Pbbt. Did you have that hat pulled over your eyes during the Carter and Clinton years? C'mon…

174 _remembertonyc  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 1:41:22pm

I used to subscribe to the Sunday NY Times. But I cancelled it about a year ago. Every so often I get a letter from the NYT with a postage paid envelope offering me a discount rate because "they want me back." I look forward to receiving these letters because every time I get one, I write them a note ripping into their product and I mail it to them using their own postage paid envelope. My message is that I am willing to pay for a good product, but their product is a crappy deal at any price because it is nothing but a piece of sh!t.

175 kansas  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 2:20:49pm

re: #174 _remembertonyc

Could be worse. You could live here where the KC Star quotes the Times an has columns from Dowd and Krugman. Puke.

176 _RememberTonyC  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 2:42:40pm

There is one guy from the KC Star that hasn't lost his mind: Jason Whitlock. He has written some pretty courageous columns on Black issues that go against the orthodox dogma.

177 monumentlizard  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 6:25:12pm

From the US Constitution...

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

I can testify that publishing the name of a secret intelligence operative who has a played a key role in the interrogation of sworn enemies of the United States against the the requests of that individual and the US Government is an aid to the enemy.

Can I get a second witness ?

178 Muadib  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 6:55:22pm

The New York Times is nothing but a bunch of traitorous assholes. Their actions may someday result in the loss of Freedom of the Press, and more. And I'll bet they're too stupid to understand that.

179 William  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 7:21:48pm

The Treason Times strikes again.

180 William  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 7:22:49pm

re: #177 monumentlizard

From the US Constitution...

"Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court."

I can testify that publishing the name of a secret intelligence operative who has a played a key role in the interrogation of sworn enemies of the United States against the the requests of that individual and the US Government is an aid to the enemy.

Can I get a second witness ?

Done. Now does anyone in the Senate have the courage to smack these clowns down?

181 rob.schmitt  Mon, Jul 7, 2008 9:13:51pm

I wonder if anyone knows where reporter Scott Shane lives, and what his home phone number is? I think that the public has a 'Right To Know', so that they can call him at home to discuss their concerns with his reporting.

/I'll have to look into it.

182 erisldysnomia  Tue, Jul 8, 2008 4:36:08am

I hope this family is filing a lawsuit.

183 Sacred Plants  Tue, Jul 8, 2008 5:33:49am

Did Deuce Martinez not introduce himself to Khalid Shaikh Mohammed?

Did anyone believe he could do what he did without attracting any public attention?

What did he imagine he was fighting for if not an end to the dark age of secret police and government-sponsored terror?

Apparently these drug warriors are no help against Islamic terrorism: First they think they were higher than everybody else, and commit acts nobody else is going to take responsibility for, and as soon as they learn they aren´t, they retreat, and leave the responsibility to everybody else.

184 cannon2  Tue, Jul 8, 2008 7:12:03am

the "outing" of deuce martinez is different dorm the "outing" of valiery plame how?

profit...o i see...profit makes it o.k.

185 Nicely Nicely  Tue, Jul 8, 2008 8:09:00am
Scott Shane, the reporter, and his editors said that using the name was necessary for credibility.

Mr. Shane and the editors in question should think about their OWN safety when deciding to out the well trained employees of the CIA.

I predict a number of "accidents" for them in the near future.


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