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Muslim Creationism on the Rise in Europe

Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 6:38:15 pm PDT

The New Humanist has an article on the Islamic creationist group led by Turkish kook Harun Yahya (nee Adnan Oktar), and their mysteriously well-funded efforts to promote the anti-science agenda in Europe: Western front.

Examples cited of a growing creationist influence ranged from subtle downgrading of evolution in science education to outright attacks on the validity of Darwinism and the personality of Darwin himself. In Greece, the report found, evolution education was relegated to the very bottom of the science curriculum, which often meant in effect that secondary students learnt nothing about it because of a lack of time. In Switzerland organisations like The European Biblical Centre and the ProGenesis group were devoting considerable resources to promoting creationist education. In Russia a 16-year-old girl launched a court case against the Ministry of Education, backed by the Russian Orthodox Church, challenging the teaching of just one “theory” of biology in school textbooks as a breach of her human rights. In the UK in 2006 the Intelligent Design propagandists Truth in Science sent out a “teaching pack” to every secondary school and sixth-form college in the country.

One of the more bizarre cases cited by the report comes from Poland, where in October 2006 deputy minister of education Miroslaw Orzechowski told the Gazetta Wyborccza that “The theory of evolution is a lie, an error that we have legalised as a common truth.” He further argued that evolution is the “feeble idea of an aged non-believer” and put this error down to the fact that Darwin was “a vegetarian and lacked fire inside him”.

Each of these cases confirms the existence of a strong Christian creationist lobby in Europe, but the report also focused its attention on a new phenomenon – the rise of Muslim creationism. The central figure here is the Turkish Muslim creationist Adnan Oktar, who, writing under the pen name Harun Yahya, has made a career out of attacking Darwinian evolution. Oktar is a figure fairly well known to Darwinists and despite his claims to scientific competence is clearly little more than a crank. However what had changed, according to the report, was the scale and ambition of Oktar’s pseudo-scientific message. Since 2006 copies of a substantial, glossy and smartly packaged book called Atlas of Creation, credited to Harun Yahya, had been arriving at schools and universities across Europe. In Spain, France, Switzerland and Denmark clear evidence of the growing resources and confidence of European Muslim creationism was thudding on to the mat. The book is the first of a projected seven-part series, and parts two and three have already begun arriving at educational institutes Europe-wide.

Clearly, for the assembly, the report amounted to strong evidence that creationists were working strategically across Europe, with the aim of influencing the science curriculum as well as public opinion. Though it does not say so explicitly the implication of the report is that creationists of different denominations and faiths are, or might soon be, working together in a concerted assault on science teaching, in the same way that American creationists have been for the past decade. In response to the call for action from the Assembly, only the Swedish government acted promptly, swiftly issuing a general ban on the teaching of creationism and Intelligent Design in their schools.

My own copy of Atlas of Creation, all six kilos, arrived in 2006, just after my research group at the University of Aarhus had launched our Darwin in Denmark project, with online editions of Danish translations of Charles Darwin’s writings. In fact 20 copies arrived, unrequested and completely free.

Hardbound and expensively produced with almost 800 pages of text and images printed on glossy paper, this book presents one of the most remarkable attacks not only on the theory of evolution but on science itself. The book is full of scientific jargon, diagrams and tables, and appears to discuss Darwinian evolution in detail and refute it through careful consideration of the evidence of the fossil record, animal biology and the history of science. Most of this is the same old tired creationism, emphasising the gaps in the fossil record and making much of the various scientific hoaxes like “Piltdown Man” which, it argues, were attempts by Darwinians to fabricate proof for their hypothesis.

One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11. In a piece of overt symbolic theatre the book’s creators marked the anniversary of 9/11 last year by sending the Atlas to a large number of Protestant priests across Europe. The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united.

(Hat tip: Timothy Sandefur.)

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1 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:39:43pm

They will bow to this....

2 simonml  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:41:38pm

These people are free to be idiots, but keep our children's education out of it!

3 ted  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:42:11pm

This was predictable.

4 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:42:49pm

Science = logic + facts + willingness to adjust based on new evidence.

Can't have any of that.

///

5 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:42:59pm
The resolution focused on the way that creationists across the continent, using the model pioneered in America, have been targeting education, and warned of “a real risk of serious confusion being introduced into our children’s minds between what has to do with convictions, beliefs, ideals of all sorts and what has to do with science”. “An ‘all things are equal’ attitude,” it concludes, “may seem appealing and tolerant, but is in fact dangerous.”

The moronic convergence bites us in the ass.

6 Macker  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:43:02pm

Muslim Creationism seems to be an oxymoron to me.

7 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:43:30pm

The Designer some seek might just not be the one they're expecting.

It's a slippery slope, and one I'd prefer not to go down.

8 Josephine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:43:33pm

Harold's gonna have a conniption.

9 Bobblehead  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:44:07pm

It's back to the Dark Ages.

10 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:44:16pm

Poor Darwin. All he did was sail around the world, collecting thousands of specimens that eventually proved his theory. How dare he!

11 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:44:21pm
One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11.


Ben Stein!

12 simonml  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:44:46pm

Isn't the Sabbath enough time to learn about Creationism? I learned all that stuff on Sunday and then learned other things in school.

13 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:45:09pm

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

14 tripletdad  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:45:32pm

re: the last line -
if Christians and muslims unite on something, it can't be a good thing...

15 livefreeor die  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:46:43pm

"In a piece of overt symbolic theatre the book’s creators marked the anniversary of 9/11 last year by sending the Atlas to a large number of Protestant priests across Europe. The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united."

United until the Muslims turn around and demand that the Christians convert or submit.

16 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:47:37pm

we're going backwards.
something is really wrong.

17 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:48:40pm

re: #15 livefreeor die

United until the Muslims turn around and demand that the Christians convert or submit.


Exactly, this is a deal with the devil. Pushing the common cause of theocracy with Muslims is a loss for Christians.

18 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:48:49pm

It was the rise of science and technology that eventually permitted Europe to devise the military technologies that defeated Muslim-ruled nations in battle. In particular, Napolean's 1799 victory over a Muslim Army in the Battle of Egypt sounded the death-knell for Muslim political and military supremacy.

So let's abandon science and technology for 7th Century religion, people. It's the only way to Defend the Faith.

19 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:49:17pm

1. Insist on being ignorant, ensure that you have a tiny fraction of the creative intellectual activity in other communities.
2. Treat women as breeding machines so you have an expanding and impoverished population with unsocialized and resentful young males.
3. Watch your entire civilization and nations stagnate and become mired in poverty and misery, despite having Trillions of dollars flow through your coffers.
4. Export your unemployed people to more successful and tolerant neighbors.
5. Undermine them so they become miserable failures also.
6. Repeat as necessary.

20 livefreeor die  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:49:56pm

So if the radical Muslims are against evolution, will the moonbats be against evolution? But then they'll be agreeing with many conservatives. Here come the exploding heads in 5...4...3...

21 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:50:04pm

I imagine as the muslim population of europe continues to grow, so will the belief in muslim creationism. Will europe continue to capitulate to islamic education demands like they have concerning the Holocaust, or is science where europe will take a stand?

22 simonml  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:50:09pm

re: #19 lifeofthemind

1. Insist on being ignorant, ensure that you have a tiny fraction of the creative intellectual activity in other communities.
2. Treat women as breeding machines so you have an expanding and impoverished population with unsocialized and resentful young males.
3. Watch your entire civilization and nations stagnate and become mired in poverty and misery, despite having Trillions of dollars flow through your coffers.
4. Export your unemployed people to more successful and tolerant neighbors.
5. Undermine them so they become miserable failures also.
6. Repeat as necessary.

7. Profit?

23 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:51:28pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Ben Stein!

I like Ben generally. I just never have understood how science leads to mass murder. I don't even see how evolution leads to racist eugenics. If killing in the name of God is a perversion of religion (in most cases) then killing in the name of science is just the same (if that is indeed the justification some may have used). Just because people use religion or science for there abhorrent behavior, doesn't mean that religion or science are to blame. I will concede that many more people have fought and died in the name of God as opposed to, say, pi. Or mitochondria. Or even fluid dynamics. Amoeba's have a lot to answer for though.

24 tripletdad  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:51:48pm

Doesn't the extent of muslim education consist entirely of memorizing the Koran? I didn't think science was even in the curriculum.

25 livefreeor die  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:52:00pm

re: #19 lifeofthemind

Well said! I think that's as concise a synopsis of the whole problem as I've ever seen. I'm going to print this out and give it to my sons to read.

26 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:52:35pm

re: #13 Racer X

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

That is my desktop background now, replacing the upcoming James Bond film

27 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:53:01pm

re: #13 Racer X

The New Yorker is way to the left on the political spectrum, but Hillary is their candidate. There was a New Yorker cartoon after 9/11 depicting Bin Laden riding in a New York subway car. It, of course, was mocking the Bush Administration's inability to capture him.

Like all great satire, this one will have legs. And Obama's inability to laugh at it will kill him. He utterly lacks a sense of humor. Great ready for the Presidency, Hillary!

28 lawhawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:53:26pm

This is first time hearing about this guy and his particular movement. Definitely need to read up on it, but some of the stuff definitely seems right out of the Twilight Zone.

And as for where the money comes from, we're going to have to play follow the money. In his instance, there might be some chicanery and criminality. Imagine my shock.

Throw in Holocaust denial too. Lovely.

29 simonml  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:53:39pm

re: #24 tripletdad

Doesn't the extent of muslim education consist entirely of memorizing the Koran? I didn't think science was even in the curriculum.

The necessary force to cut off an infidel's head is directly proportional to the integral with the limits of... uh... nevermind

30 livefreeor die  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:54:41pm

re: #24 tripletdad

Doesn't the extent of muslim education consist entirely of memorizing the Koran? I didn't think science was even in the curriculum.

I think there are dispensations for vaccinations, modern medicine, and explosives.

31 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:55:06pm

re: #6 Macker

Muslim Creationism seems to be an oxymoron to me.

Not really, it is their creation story, which is I believe, Biblical creation. I don't know if they have added any flavoring to it specific to Mo's desires or not.

32 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:55:26pm

Well at least one thing I noted in here has some fact to it, "One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11. In a piece of overt symbolic theatre the book’s creators marked the anniversary of 9/11 last year by sending the Atlas to a large number of Protestant priests across Europe. The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united." It was Hitlers belief in Darwinism that propelled him to the "final solution", in fact he is quoted as as referring to Darwin to prove the Aryan race was superior....
that being said, with all the fossils in evidence in thousands of drawers in hundred of museums, have you ever seen a solid family tree of ANY species? Where are all the transition fossils? You would think they would have a solid set of at least one species in the multitudes that they have discover and cataloged over the last two hundred years or so....

33 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:57:00pm

re: #16 nyc redneck

we're going backwards.
something is really wrong.

Are we distracted?

34 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:57:00pm
35 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:59:05pm

re: #32 Marvo76

...........Where are all the transition fossils?.............

Really? You ask this? Go to the front page and scroll down one or two posts....

36 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:59:09pm

re: #32 Marvo76

It was Hitlers belief in Darwinism that propelled him to the "final solution", in fact he is quoted as as referring to Darwin to prove the Aryan race was superior....

This is absolutely false.

37 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:59:44pm

re: #6 Macker

About the only thing they have, uh, created are splodey dopes.

38 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:00:51pm

In fact Europe has seen something similar to this before.

In the 16th century Spain conquered the New World and incredible wealth flowed into the Spanish treasury. Despite initial intellectual flowering in the Renaissance and Humanist period the Counter reformation effectively ended any free inquiry in Spain. The result was the impoverishment of the old aristocracy who were tied to landed wealth and the ruination of the economy at large due to uncontrolled inflation. By the 17th century Spain was unable to overwhelm the Dutch and were soon well on their way to becoming a backwater.

39 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:01:00pm

The Dark Ages are returning.

40 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:01:28pm

the rop'er creationists are interested, mostly, in destroying western culture and spreading islam.
are they trying to bring us down to their stone age existence?
do they think it will be easier to subdue us if WE start living in caves.
that could be the worst mistake they make.

one thing is sure they see the creationist christians as a mark. infidels.
who will be dealt with.

41 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:02:14pm

re: #20 livefreeor die

So if the radical Muslims are against evolution, will the moonbats be against evolution? But then they'll be agreeing with many conservatives. Here come the exploding heads in 5...4...3...

It doesn't fit their worldview, it doesn't exist.

42 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:02:44pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Where are all the transition fossils?

Which specific "transition fossil" do you find to be missing?

43 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:02:54pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Give it up, Marvo. Science isn't an attack on G-d, your religion, or Jesus. By discovering antibiotics and harnessing electricity, modern science and technology probably has saved your life repeatedly.

So be grateful both to your Lord, and to scientists. They're the ones who has teased out the patterns and subtle order in the universe by patient observation and experimentation. Do those patterns mean that G-d exists? Follow your faith on that point, but don't call it science.

44 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:02:59pm

re: #1 coquimbojoe

They will bow to this....

I'm afraid you may be right. The Europeans know that when Christians are upset, it's amusing because they know that the Christians won't do anything past writing letters to the editor. If, on the other hand, Muslims are upset it's not amusing. They know that , if provoked, the Muslims will do something. They know it so deeply that even to speculate out loud about what that something may be brings cries of censure and accusations of islamophobia.

Is there any hope for Europe?

45 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:03:16pm

re: #33 experiencedtraveller

re: #16 nyc redneck

It happens sometimes.

We are still not collectively smart or powerful enough to insure it won't happen.

46 Spiny Norman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:03:57pm

re: #13 Racer X

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

Operation Chaos continues.

47 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:04:18pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

Islamic Creation's Contradiction.

Well, I guess they did add some Islamic Seasoning to the mix.

Islam seems to have this compulsion to changes things just a little bit so they can point out how 'wrong' everyone else is.

48 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:04:27pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Many eugenicists have tried to put this on Darwin. However most eugenics ideas seemed to have come from his cousin Francis Galton. Darwin is just a convenient boogeyman.

49 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:04:43pm

re: #44 ErnieG

I'm afraid you may be right. The Europeans know that when Christians are upset, it's amusing because they know that the Christians won't do anything past writing letters to the editor. If, on the other hand, Muslims are upset it's not amusing. They know that , if provoked, the Muslims will do something. They know it so deeply that even to speculate out loud about what that something may be brings cries of censure and accusations of islamophobia.

Is there any hope for Europe?

I believe if they stop trying to be so correct, they might actually straighten things out and shake off the stupor they seem to be in....but I could be wrong.

50 Josephine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:04:51pm

re: #30 livefreeor die

I think there are dispensations for vaccinations, modern medicine, and explosives.

I think I read a while ago about some imams who were telling Muslims that inoculations were an evil plot against them and this was causing a problem. Darn, I can't remember where this took place!

51 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:05:09pm

The first ding award goes to Genexer.

52 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:05:12pm

It's just astounding to me that there are creationists so locked into their belief system that they can't even see anything wrong with joining forces with Harun Yahya.

But there it is.

53 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:06:16pm

re: #52 Charles

I guess it's because evolution directly contradicts Holy Scripture, regardless of faith.

54 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:06:16pm

re: #23 coquimbojoe

Something happened to him. I'm not sure what but something happened.

55 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:07:28pm

re: #52 Charles

"Who dines with the Devil should have a long spoon."

56 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:07:42pm

re: #13 Racer X

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

OMG that is HILARIOUS!

57 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:07:43pm

re: #50 JosephineSomewhere in Sub-Saharan Africa. They were telling people not to get shots for measels, or some other damn nasty bug. Said it was a plot to poison them, IIRC.

58 Spiny Norman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:07:43pm

re: #38 lifeofthemind

In fact Europe has seen something similar to this before.

In the 16th century Spain conquered the New World and incredible wealth flowed into the Spanish treasury. Despite initial intellectual flowering in the Renaissance and Humanist period the Counter reformation effectively ended any free inquiry in Spain. The result was the impoverishment of the old aristocracy who were tied to landed wealth and the ruination of the economy at large due to uncontrolled inflation. By the 17th century Spain was unable to overwhelm the Dutch and were soon well on their way to becoming a backwater.

And left huge swaths of intractable poverty in their colonial wake, while the English "heretics" left behind Modern Civilization.

59 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:08:02pm

re: #52 Charles

Dr Duane Gish and Dr Kenneth Cumming, two world-renowned scientists from the Institute for Creation Research in the USA are authorities on biochemistry and paleontology. They demonstrated with substantial proof that the theory of evolution has no validity whatsoever. During the conference, one of the most esteemed Turkish scientists today, Dr Cevat Babuna illustrated the miracles in each phase of a human being's creation with a slide show that shook the "coincidence hypothesis" of evolution to its roots.
....
Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, "Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?", Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design.

Dr Edward Boudreaux: In his speech, "The Design in Chemistry", Edward Boudreaux, a professor of chemistry at the University of New Orleans, noted that some chemical elements must have been deliberately arranged by creation in order for life to exist.

Professor Carl Fliermans: A widely-known scientist in the USA and a microbiology professor at Indiana University conducting a research on "the neutralisation of chemical wastes by bacteria" supported by the US Department of Defence, Carl Fliermans refuted evolutionist claims at the microbiological level.


Lots of Americans present.

60 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:08:43pm

re: #52 Charles

It's just astounding to me that there are creationists so locked into their belief system that they can't even see anything wrong with joining forces with Harun Yahya.

But there it is.

Faith. You can't reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into. I have made it clear in the past that I am very religious and believe in a creator, I just don't see why God couldn't have planned for evolution to happen? I believe that all truth comes from God. To deny scientific proof of things, like transitional fossils, would in my mind, put me against God's truth.

61 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:08:54pm

re: #43 quickjustice

I think Marvo76 (among others) registered here for the sole purpose of being able to throw in his/her .02 on this topic.

62 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:08:58pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Where are all the transition fossils?


Heh.

63 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:05pm

re: #26 kevinmumaw


You know McCain is laughing his ass off about it!

64 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:15pm

re: #53 laZardo

I guess it's because evolution directly contradicts Holy Scripture, regardless of faith.

So does the heliocentric solar system, but we have put that behind us. Galileo wasn't so lucky, though.

65 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:19pm

re: #13 Racer X

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

Rotating Title?

66 Spiny Norman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:25pm

re: #53 laZardo

I guess it's because evolution directly contradicts a simplistic, literalist view of Holy Scripture, regardless of faith.

Fixed.

67 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:49pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Where are the transition fossils?

You haven't been paying attention, they found three this month alone. New fossils are found almost every day.

As far as the Steinian blood libel on the holocaust, just like him you are full of so much shit, besides that you aren't following your leader's Dembski's orders, please go read his DI blog for the new strategy.

68 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:52pm

re: #53 laZardo

I guess it's because evolution directly contradicts Holy Scripture, regardless of faith.

It doesn't, but try to tell the extremists that.

69 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:54pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Heh.

Killgore, did you steal them again?

70 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:56pm

re: #53 laZardo

Darwin's wife was a devout Christian, and his research caused her a great deal of pain. He, in turn, was devoted to her, and suffered for his science and his principles. In his personal life, Charles Darwin was a good and decent gentleman.

71 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:10:24pm

Islamic Creationism In Turkey

Perhaps the most striking feature of this example of Turkish creationism is the extent of almost total dependence on Christian creationists. Perhaps this should be expected, as Turkish intellectual life tends to lag behind the West in general. The weak state of Turkish science (Turkey has been reported to have 12 thousand scientists, the most of any Islamic country, said to have a total of only 45 thousand overall, out of a population of about a billion (Yildirim, 1993)) may have a connection with the prevalence of imported pseudoscientific beliefs. But probably the major factor is that a segment of society has more recently felt the need and the possibility to respond to the pressures of secularism, and not by retreating into a traditionalist isolation. Islamic fundamentalism, like its Christian cousin, is a product of modernity in its very reaction to it.

Christian creationism was there, accessible, and easily adaptable. The religions are remarkably similar, as far as the Creation mythology is concerned. Differences exist between the literal creation stories of the Qur'an and Genesis, but these are details that very rarely come up in the creationist literature, if at all. The usual vague "creation model" is fully compatible with Islam.

This is from 1994- looks like things haven't changed much.

72 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:10:38pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Heh.

Heh, indeed.

73 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:08pm

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

I'm ransoming them for Sheckles. I have a Zionist conspiracy to finance.

74 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:09pm

re: #48 Mars Needs Neocons

And *itler was quite the fan of eugenics.

That says it all.

75 Josephine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:22pm

re: #57 pingjockey

Ah, thank you.

76 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:24pm
Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, "Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?", Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design

There is no such place.

77 Macker  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:39pm

re: #31 CyanSnowHawk

Perhaps an explanation is in order. Muslims worship Stan (and not Allah, who is probably one of his Demons). And Stan certainly didn't create anything which is attributable to his former Boss.

78 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:12:13pm

it is astounding that christians would align w/ rop'ers against the modern secular world and the scientific community who would never cut their heads off.

79 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:12:23pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

There is no such place.

He intelligently designed it.

80 garycooper  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:13:52pm

re: #20 livefreeor die

So if the radical Muslims are against evolution, will the moonbats be against evolution? But then they'll be agreeing with many conservatives. Here come the exploding heads in 5...4...3...

It's funny, because it's true. :)

Someone already pointed out, it's another moronic-convergence. It's becoming a regular "5-Corners"-intersection down there, isn't it? Better hire some more traffic cops.

81 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:13:52pm

Europe proves that if a political vacuum is created, eventually the radicals will try to fill it.

82 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:00pm

re: #78 nyc redneck

it is astounding that christians would align w/ rop'ers against the modern secular world and the scientific community who would never cut their heads off.

Except for perhaps a biopsy or for an anatomy class. I think it needed to be pointed out.

83 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:26pm

re: #79 lifeofthemind

He intelligently designed it.

I like what he did with the curtains.

84 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:43pm

re: #77 Macker

Stan as in Stan and Ollie?

85 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:44pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

There is no such place.

You mean they're resorting to lying? I'm shocked! ;)

86 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:57pm

re: #74 NY Nana

And *itler was quite the fan of eugenics.

That says it all.


Yes he was and as I've said all along eugenics existed well before Darwin:

In 1876, Ernst Haeckel had discussed the selective infanticide policy of the Greek city of ancient Sparta.[3] In his Second Book, which was kept unpublished during Nazi Germany, Hitler also praised Sparta, adding that this was because he considered Sparta to be the first "Völkisch State," and endorsed what he perceived to be an early eugenics treatment of deformed children:

Sparta must be regarded as the first Völkisch State. The exposure of the sick, weak, deformed children, in short, their destruction, was more decent and in truth a thousand times more humane than the wretched insanity of our day which preserves the most pathological subject, and indeed at any price, and yet takes the life of a hundred thousand healthy children in consequence of birth control or through abortions, in order subsequently to breed a race of degenerates burdened with illnesses.[4][5]

87 elrushbuni  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:15:05pm

The only reason Muslim creationism is on the rise in Europe is the same reason why Muslim religious preference is on the rise in Europe = population. May as well kiss Europa goodbye.

88 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:15:24pm

re: #66 Spiny Norman

It doesn't take a "simplistic" view to notice two stories of creation within the Book of Genesis. (Gen 2:4-7, Gen 1:8-27).

re: #70 quickjustice

Good manners transcend most faiths (see Hitchens). Besides which, being a gentleman was proper in his society.

89 Josephine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:15:40pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

Faked credentials?

90 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:16:07pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout


Dr Duane Gish and Dr Kenneth Cumming, two world-renowned scientists from the Institute for Creation Research in the USA are authorities on biochemistry and paleontology. They demonstrated with substantial proof that the theory of evolution has no validity whatsoever. During the conference, one of the most esteemed Turkish scientists today, Dr Cevat Babuna illustrated the miracles in each phase of a human being's creation with a slide show that shook the "coincidence hypothesis" of evolution to its roots.
....
Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, "Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?", Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design.

Dr Edward Boudreaux: In his speech, "The Design in Chemistry", Edward Boudreaux, a professor of chemistry at the University of New Orleans, noted that some chemical elements must have been deliberately arranged by creation in order for life to exist.

Professor Carl Fliermans: A widely-known scientist in the USA and a microbiology professor at Indiana University conducting a research on "the neutralisation of chemical wastes by bacteria" supported by the US Department of Defence, Carl Fliermans refuted evolutionist claims at the microbiological level.


Lots of Americans present.

Those all sound like irreducible complexity arguments on the surface. They also seem to misunderstand the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to some degree.

91 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:16:16pm

re: #58 Spiny Norman

The Spanish obsession with gold also played a role. Because the gold mines of the Americas enriched the Spanish treasury, gold abounded there in quantities previously unheard of.

And what did this cause? Huge inflation, because Spanish economy could not produce good and services fast enough to stabilize the value of the gold! Too much gold chasing too few goods. A classic lesson in monetary policy.

But of course, economics is a science that shouldn't be studied when you can focus exclusively on the Bible and the Koran.

92 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:16:34pm
93 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:16:35pm

re: #85 Sharmuta

You mean they're resorting to lying? I'm shocked! ;)

LOL.

Actually, there are a couple with similar names, but there is no "Southern Louisiana University".

94 Macker  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:17:11pm

re: #84 lifeofthemind

Not Just No but HELL NO! Got the hint?

95 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:17:30pm

re: #89 Josephine

Faked credentials?

Could just be an accidental misnaming - there are similarly named places, but none with that name.

96 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:17:32pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

There is no such place.

But maybe they mistranslated a scrambled acronym? LSU?


[Link: www.letsgetthin.com...]

97 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:04pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout
Here he is, they meant LSU, but he's now a 'popular speaker.'
[Link: www.wordoftruth.net...]

98 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:10pm

re: #43 quickjustice

Give it up, Marvo. Science isn't an attack on G-d, your religion, or Jesus. By discovering antibiotics and harnessing electricity, modern science and technology probably has saved your life repeatedly.

So be grateful both to your Lord, and to scientists. They're the ones who has teased out the patterns and subtle order in the universe by patient observation and experimentation. Do those patterns mean that G-d exists? Follow your faith on that point, but don't call it science.

I am grateful, but questions abound, such as finding trackable DNA in supposedly million year old fossilized bones, and the masses of animal fossil remains which are attributed to eons but could have come from a connection to the great flood. Why else would they be concentrated in certain areas and massed as if swept up together in a large mudflow?
Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's... How could they have done the forensics from a few bones that we do today, in order to come up with the shapes? I take neither "theory" at face value, I find enuff questions about both, to label them both theories and not fact.

99 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:18pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, "Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?", Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design.

Looks like Dr. Girouard has a side business where he will "Turn your body into a Fat Burning Machine!"

Credibility.

100 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:42pm

re: #85 Sharmuta

You mean they're resorting to lying? I'm shocked! ;)

I can find out (will have to be tomorrow), but I can find out if this guy really is a university professor anywhere in the State of La. I'll check it out and let ya know.

101 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:56pm

Mentioned this in a comment last week:
The threat from creationism to the rational teaching of biology (1/2)
Excerpts:

Even those who are aware of the creationist threat to the rational teaching of biology in the USA often fail to realize that in recent years the problem has spread far beyond the USA, driven in some countries not by Christian fundamentalism but by Islamic fundamentalism.
[snip]
Turkey may well constitute the most important source of creationist propaganda outside the USA, and it certainly explains much of the success of creationists in attracting support from Muslim students in the UK, Germany and France. Large meetings in modern congress centres with high attendance (Anonymous, 1998) illustrate the high degree of financial support, as does extensive publication of creationist texts (Anonymous, 2005): the book Evolution Deceit is available not only in Turkish and English, but also in French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian and Arabic, and circulated in many countries, definitely including Argentina, and possibly others in Latin America (Anonymous, 2007c). Recently the profusely illustrated and expensively produced Atlas of Creation from the same source (Anonymous, 2007d) has been distributed in several languages free of charge to teachers, schools and universities in different countries.
[snip]
... in addition, outside the USA it is no longer true that the major threat is coming from Christian fundamentalism, as a substantial amount of propaganda is now produced in Turkey and distributed to Muslims in Western Europe and in many countries elsewhere.

Here's the entire report as a PDF file.

102 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:19:17pm
103 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:19:25pm

re: #92 taxfreekiller

I'm not ready to throw out the 2/4 year revolution through the ballot box just yet.

But we need leaders and they got a 200 year head start.

104 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:20:35pm

I'm off to bed but as I wrote to Charles earlier, it's bad news when we start teaching religious theory in the science classroom. Europe better watch herself or some imam is going to be teaching that the world is flat. I'm an Evangelical Christian, I believe in a creator, I believe in evolution, I don't believe in the "young earth" theory, and I certainly don't want ANYONE's faith taught in the classroom unless the school specifically relates to that faith i.e. Catholic school etc. Please leave the teaching of faith to the parents and leave the teaching of science to the scientists.

105 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:20:50pm

Yep, he's a quack:

Dr. Girouard was born and raised in Chalmette, LA. He graduated from Chalmette High School as Valedictorian and was student council president. After high school, he attended Southeastern Louisiana University and earned a BS in Chemistry with minors in Mathematics and Physics. His academic success followed him through college and he graduated second in the School of Science and Technology and was awarded the Outstanding Graduating Chemistry Senior award.

Dr. Girouard’s love for science and inquisitive mind took him to Louisiana State University Medical Center in 1980, and he received postgraduate training at Ochsner Foundation Hospital in Internal Medicine and Anesthesiology. In 1981 he started his weight loss practice in Louisiana.
Dr. Girouard had been overweight most of life. When he was 6 years old, he was so overweight that his parents had to have a communion suit tailor made for him. He lost weight in junior high, going from 185 pounds to 110 in one year. Twelve years ago he lost 100 pounds going from 265 to 170. He has maintained this weight since then. Due to his own personal battles with weight, he has a genuine compassion for others dealing with these same issues. This care and concern became a mission to find a treatment program to help others manage their weight.

106 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:20:54pm

re: #98 Marvo76

Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's...

Linky?

107 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:20:55pm

re: #33 experiencedtraveller

Are we distracted?

a lot of us aren't.

108 livfreeordie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:00pm

As to the money source my educated GUESS is
The Fethullah Gülen Movement
In northeastern PA universities the Turks put on lavish events...oh so sweet and "ecumenical"...beware...

109 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:00pm
110 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:01pm

Creationism is a "flavor of the week" and has readily become a tool for those who seek to try and force their influence/ideas/beliefs/whatever else fits here on everyone that doesn't conform to their train of thought. This reason alone should be enough to raise the alarm that it isn't a good mix, especially to those Christians who think that this is a good way to get religion back into schools. You should worry if you start to believe the same thing that wahabism believes in. RED FLAG!

111 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:04pm

re: #98 Marvo76

I am grateful, but questions abound, such as finding trackable DNA in supposedly million year old fossilized bones, and the masses of animal fossil remains which are attributed to eons but could have come from a connection to the great flood. Why else would they be concentrated in certain areas and massed as if swept up together in a large mudflow?

Ever hear of Chicxulub. Look it up.

112 Paul  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:15pm

An aid for people who think that Earth is more than 6,500 years old: Paleomaps

113 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:23pm

re: #98 Marvo76

...Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's...

Dude. I just took a drug test so I am cool, what is it you are on that leads you to say this? I want some. Show a link to cave art with dinosaurs. We are very big on documenting things here. Silly assertions get trampled (hence the Discovery Institute's beatings here).

114 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:28pm

re: #98 Marvo76

Please learn to spell.

115 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:22:02pm

re: #98 Marvo76

Are you a fan of Henry Morris?

116 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:22:06pm

We got the bottle
you got the cup
c'mon let's get.....
Brass Monkey

117 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:22:37pm

re: #109 taxfreekiller

[Link: www.blowoutcongress.com...]

Interesting, I've had that thought myself a few times.

118 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:23:27pm

re: #113 coquimbojoe

...Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's...

Ok, linky please. You're in my territory now. Light-sabre's drawn.

119 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:23:38pm

re: #96 Thanos

re: #97 jaunte

I can find out, probably by tomorrow.

I'm not sure they meant LSU. They may have meant Southern Univ. Or they could have meant Southeastern La Univ or Southwestern LA Univ.

Or maybe that's not accurate at all.

120 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:23:54pm

re: #94 Macker

Not Just No but HELL NO! Got the hint?

Free country, personally I'd rather trust education policy to Stan and Ollie.

121 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:24:44pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

No actually we found the guy, he runs a fat burn clinic, see the link up thread.

122 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:25:47pm

re: #98 Marvo76

I'll keep this reply brief. If the Bible is true, then G-d exists. And if the New Testament is true, then Jesus is Meshiach, the Messiah. And if all of that is true, then your sins are forgiven, you are saved, and you're going to a Heaven without 72 virgins, except for the nuns who will rap your knuckles if you misbehave!

And the dinosaurs have nothing to do with any of this.

123 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:26:29pm
124 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:26:42pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

It looks from the links like he's been doing creation science speeches since 1988, while operating a weight-loss clinic.

125 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:03pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Ok, linky please. You're in my territory now. Light-sabre's drawn.

I was quoting Marvo 76.

126 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:04pm

re: #109 taxfreekiller

Need to discuss this at length in an open thread at a later time. This has been bugging me on several levels.

127 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:24pm

re: #122 quickjustice

I'll keep this reply brief. If the Bible is true, then G-d exists. And if the New Testament is true, then Jesus is Meshiach, the Messiah. And if all of that is true, then your sins are forgiven, you are saved, and you're going to a Heaven without 72 virgins, except for the nuns who will rap your knuckles if you misbehave!

And the dinosaurs have nothing to do with any of this.

The Obama's planning on suing.

128 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:43pm

re: #125 coquimbojoe

I was quoting Marvo 76.

I was addressing that to Marvo76, I think? Sorry.

129 snowcrash  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:43pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout
That's my ringtone. Get's everyones attention.

130 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:45pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Ok, linky please. You're in my territory now. Light-sabre's drawn.

I think the links are in Matrvo's ass.

131 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:03pm
132 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:06pm

re: #128 Walter L. Newton

I was addressing that to Marvo76, I think? Sorry.

S'OK!

133 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:29pm

re: #125 coquimbojoe

I was quoting Marvo 76.

Oh, I see now. My mistake.

134 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:30pm

re: #106 Fat Jolly Penguin

Linky?

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

135 Timbre  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:32pm

Only slightly O/T:
"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Iran would "cut off the hands" of any foreign enemy that attacked the country, the state-run Islamic Republic News Agency reported.

"Before the enemies can put their fingers on the trigger, the armed forces will cut off their hands," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying." (FOX News)

I wonder if Israel is America's hands or if America is Israel's? Maybe the answer depends if you are a right-brain paranoid lunatic or a left-brained paranoid lunatic...

136 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:34pm

re: #77 Macker

Perhaps an explanation is in order. Muslims worship Stan (and not Allah, who is probably one of his Demons). And Stan certainly didn't create anything which is attributable to his former Boss.

Love your avatar.
I understand why you made your first statement in light of this explanation.

137 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:45pm

re: #123 buzzsawmonkey

They'd be terrible at teaching science; all their work violates the Laws of Motion. They consistently disprove "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction," since for every action in their films there is an unequal and overwhelming reaction.

Yes they would be better at National Security. We must combat the evil lawyer inspired and UN championed doctrine of "proportionate response." When we act it should be a massive and disproportionate response.

138 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:29:09pm

re: #130 coquimbojoe

I think the links are in Matrvo's ass.

Wonder which paleontologist would dig there?

139 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:29:13pm

re: #114 Jetpilot1101

Please learn to spell.

I thought I used spell check, my bad...

140 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:29:33pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Walter, I think he's confused. Nat Geo had a special about cave art in the Sahara, but it was hippos, elephants, giraffes, etc... which hadn't been there for 5k years. When the Sahara was wetter.

141 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:10pm

re: #124 jaunte

It looks from the links like he's been doing creation science speeches since 1988, while operating a weight-loss clinic.

Well - the place you found said this about him:


Dr. Girouard has presently resigned his medical practice to participate in full time Christian Service, specializing in the area of biblical apologetics.

But said nothing about working as a professor of biology anywhere.

And Thanos found the website for his medical practice; why would he have a website for a medical practice if he resigned it to participate full-time in Christian service?

Not adding up.

142 Timbre  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:14pm

re: #138 lone_wolf_in_illinois

Wonder which paleontologist would dig there?

A paleoproctologist...

143 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:16pm

There is no evidence, zero, to support a great global flood. Local, yes- global, no. None.

144 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:36pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

There is no such place.

With the help of Google:

Dr. Michael Girouard is a medical physician and graduate of LSU Medical Center. Dr. Girouard lectured with the Institute for Creation Research from 1988-1990 where he served as Assistant Professor of Biology.

There are several audio tapes, The Evolution Lie, dating from 2004, available on the internet. (I'll spare you the link.)

A Dr. Michael Girouard now practices at the Weight Loss & Wellness Clinic, Huntersville, NC.

145 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:54pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

Are you a fan of Henry Morris?

that name doesn't ring a bell...My son gets the creation science magazine, and also has the book "tornado in a junkyard" which debunks a lot of the Darwin info...

146 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:31:36pm

re: #144 ErnieG

See: re: #141 reine.de.tout

147 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:31:44pm

re: #134 Marvo76

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

Now there's a hoot, whoever put that together has been cribbing from von danniken and doesn't know a dino from an anteater.

148 Annar  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:31:47pm

Europe is ripe for the taking and the fall may happen even faster than many suspect. The disarmament that is provided by the blind acceptance of multiculturalism and political correctness will permit a relatively weak enemy to impose its will across the continent with little resistance.

At least they'll have those fancy books to burn for heat as the new dark age descends from Andalusia to New Turkey (Germany).

149 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:31:50pm

re: #127 Fat Jolly Penguin

I think of Obama as the Moonies think of their savior-- whom they claim to be Jesus' younger, more successful brother.

150 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:32:10pm

re: #86 Thanos

Yes he was and as I've said all along eugenics existed well before Darwin:

In 1876, Ernst Haeckel had discussed the selective infanticide policy of the Greek city of ancient Sparta.[3] In his Second Book, which was kept unpublished during Nazi Germany, Hitler also praised Sparta, adding that this was because he considered Sparta to be the first "Völkisch State," and endorsed what he perceived to be an early eugenics treatment of deformed children:

Sparta must be regarded as the first Völkisch State. The exposure of the sick, weak, deformed children, in short, their destruction, was more decent and in truth a thousand times more humane than the wretched insanity of our day which preserves the most pathological subject, and indeed at any price, and yet takes the life of a hundred thousand healthy children in consequence of birth control or through abortions, in order subsequently to breed a race of degenerates burdened with illnesses.[4][5]

And you have been right all along. I did not know that it went back that far...

151 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:32:24pm

re: #134 Marvo76

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

To those who would think of clicking this - major resources for this site include "Dr. Dino" Kent Hovind, and ICR . . .

152 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:33:00pm

re: #135 Timbre

One of our fingers looks like this.

That's a pinky.

153 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:33:17pm

re: #86 Thanos

...Madness!

/because a 300 joke is required...

154 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:33:24pm

re: #144 ErnieG


Dr. Girouard lectured with the Institute for Creation Research from 1988-1990 where he served as Assistant Professor of Biology.

Well. That's certainly not the place the Evolution Deceit website said he was from.

155 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:33:30pm

re: #140 pingjockey

Walter, I think he's confused. Nat Geo had a special about cave art in the Sahara, but it was hippos, elephants, giraffes, etc... which hadn't been there for 5k years. When the Sahara was wetter.

Permanent low over the Atlas mountains showed up about 2,000 years ago. Like The Man Who Came to Dinner, it just doesn't want to leave. There were tropical species found in North Africa in Roman times.

156 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:34:02pm

if I don't reply right away, I am not dodging anyone, just going to step away from the machine for a bit...cold brew, warm shower, clean clothes and all...

157 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:34:15pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

I'm ransoming them for Sheckles. I have a Zionist conspiracy to finance.

/Busy, busy, busy!

158 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:35:05pm

re: #145 Marvo76

Oh! So your son is reading magazines by groups that are in league with islamic creationists. How nice.

159 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:35:10pm

re: #134 Marvo76

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

Again. Dude. What drugs? That. Site. Was. Crap.

160 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:35:31pm

re: #146 reine.de.tout

See: re: #141 reine.de.tout

I know. When I was Googling and drafting my post, a bunch of people beat me to it.

161 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:35:39pm

re: #147 Thanos

Now there's a hoot, whoever put that together has been cribbing from von danniken and doesn't know a dino from an anteater.

how many pages have you looked at? I know some are a bit suspect, but others are not in my book...go thru the list and then tell me, I already looked at all of them at one time or another...

162 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:36:02pm

re: #150 NY Nana

And you have been right all along. I did not know that it went back that far...

If you read up on anthropology you'll find that a lot of tribal societies practiced eugenics, including the "noble savage" Amerinds.

When you put tribal + nationalism + socialism together you are bound to get genocide.

163 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:36:48pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

I'm ransoming them for Sheckles. I have a Zionist conspiracy to finance.

Where is my check? Late again!

164 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:37:00pm

Gotta go. Enjoy your evening folks!

165 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:17pm

re: #131 buzzsawmonkey

Now there's a business model. Create fatheads, then help them take off the fat.

It's a legal version of a glazier breaking windows with a BB gun.

166 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:24pm

re: #159 coquimbojoe

Again. Dude. What drugs? That. Site. Was. Crap.

by the way, why the snide comments? Can you not get your point across without trying to belittle folks? Keep the debate on a "friendly" level, I have kept an open mind and I don't shoot the messenger, only the message, you might try it sometime....it makes for a more enjoyable debate...

167 Pullus Iulius  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:29pm

re: #134 Marvo76

The Ico Stones? Please. Are crystal skulls next? Because they, like Basilo Uschaya and his fraudulent Ico Stones, have been proven to be lies. My Savior is, and exists in the realm of, Truth. He is poorly served by fraud.

168 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:30pm

re: #161 Marvo76

how many pages have you looked at? I know some are a bit suspect, but others are not in my book...go thru the list and then tell me, I already looked at all of them at one time or another...

I looked through enough to see that there are outright lies there. What happened to "thou shall not bear false witness?"

169 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:36pm

Gonna reboot the work comp, updates just finished. BRB.

170 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:52pm

re: #140 pingjockey

Walter, I think he's confused. Nat Geo had a special about cave art in the Sahara, but it was hippos, elephants, giraffes, etc... which hadn't been there for 5k years. When the Sahara was wetter.

His link has some info on the Palestrina Mosaic (circa 100 C.E), which appears to show two men battling a dinosaur like creature.

Most art experts, aware of the styles of animal renderings of this time, see that as a crocodile or a fish eating reptile of some sort.

But of course, the ID people are smarter than 200 years of art historians, ergo, it's a dino.

171 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:39:06pm
172 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:41:43pm

re: #171 ploome hineni

"reality is a problem and must be corrected."

173 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:42:14pm
174 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:42:30pm

re: #162 Thanos

I'd say it's more primitive than that. The poorer and more primitive the society, the more likely "excess" people (such as the handicapped, or infants that the family cannot feed) will be discarded to ensure the survival of the tribe.

The wealthier the society, the more likely compassion will be shown to handicapped people. I'd say that Judaism and Christianity also challenged the prevailing pagan culture on this point, making it a Jewish or Christian duty to give charity to the poor.

175 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:42:38pm

re: #171 ploome hineni

..and the earth is flat?

europe seems to be flattening out.

176 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:05pm
177 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:15pm

Good night ladies.

178 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:33pm
179 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:50pm
180 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:55pm

re: #177 lifeofthemind

Good night ladies.

"Good night Sir!"

"Hit it sweetheart."

181 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:20pm

re: #134 Marvo76

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

Couldn't those be misinterpretations of the artists' intent? They might be stylized renderings of real animals, or they might depict scenes out of that particular culture's mythology. Without the context, it's hard to tell.

182 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:24pm

re: #166 Marvo76

by the way, why the snide comments? Can you not get your point across without trying to belittle folks? Keep the debate on a "friendly" level, I have kept an open mind and I don't shoot the messenger, only the message, you might try it sometime....it makes for a more enjoyable debate...

Because you come to the discussion ignorant with 'dubious' (your word) sources. You have ignored the science posted of this site. Your arguments make you silly and lack any weight or truth. I rarely belittle people, but you are spewing crap here that doesn't lend itself to debate, rather, in my opinion, only derision. Keep it up though, your ignorance and credulity stands as a warning to many.

And I am a believer in God and the Earth as His creation.

183 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:45pm

Here is what Marvo76 fails to mention, or that the material he has read fails to mention...

"The Greek letters above the reptilian animal spell out the word: KROKODILOPARDALIS which is literally Crocodile-Leopard."

Typical of this sort or research, if you can even call it that. Leave out the facts that DON'T support your theory.

Lions and tigers and Crocodiles, oh my.

184 Timbre  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:47pm

re: #152 unclassifiable

I'm not a "glass parking lot" guy, but sometimes I think Ahmadinejihad need the great-great grandson of this fat boy descending upon his fatheadquarters.

185 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:50pm
186 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:45:11pm

re: #182 coquimbojoe

Because you come to the discussion ignorant with 'dubious' (your word) sources. You have ignored the science posted of this site. Your arguments make you silly and lack any weight or truth. I rarely belittle people, but you are spewing crap here that doesn't lend itself to debate, rather, in my opinion, only derision. Keep it up though, your ignorance and credulity stands as a warning to many.

And I am a believer in God and the Earth as His creation.

My Bad you said 'suspect'.

187 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:45:34pm

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

Ah, so.

188 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:46:09pm

re: #98 Marvo76

I am grateful, but questions abound, such as finding trackable DNA in supposedly million year old fossilized bones, and the masses of animal fossil remains which are attributed to eons but could have come from a connection to the great flood. Why else would they be concentrated in certain areas and massed as if swept up together in a large mudflow?
Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's... How could they have done the forensics from a few bones that we do today, in order to come up with the shapes? I take neither "theory" at face value, I find enuff questions about both, to label them both theories and not fact.

In cryptozoology we have some theories, but nothing we would try to put onto school kids. And once it's solved it becomes regular zoology and is no longer our purview.

189 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:46:14pm

re: #162 Thanos

If you read up on anthropology you'll find that a lot of tribal societies practiced eugenics, including the "noble savage" Amerinds.

When you put tribal + nationalism + socialism together you are bound to get genocide.

The genocide that occurred when I was a child has impacted my entire life...and so many choose, like they seem to have, re 9/11, to forget...and you know the rest...we are witnessing it, in a way, with the current election. The 'change' that is touted? May G-d help us.

Damn it, we cannot afford to forget.

Yesterday makes today and tomorrow.

190 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:46:40pm

re: #181 Fat Jolly Penguin

They looked like fauxroglyphics to me.

191 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:48:05pm

re: #178 ploome hineni

I however, am getting round

nail your bikini to the wall. that will help.

192 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:48:47pm

Mmmm, young troll meat. Better than veal.

Marvo76
Registered since: May 8, 2008 at 4:58 pm
No. of comments posted: 18
No. of links posted: 0

193 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:49:25pm
194 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:49:42pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

They looked like fauxroglyphics to me.

Beautiful Sharm, did you coin that?

195 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:49:57pm
196 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:50:15pm

re: #193 ploome hineni

its already glued to my ass


LMAO!

197 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:50:39pm

re: #168 Thanos

I looked through enough to see that there are outright lies there. What happened to "thou shall not bear false witness?"

like I said some are suspect, but not all. I try to sift all the different info and see what comes to the top and what gets thrown aside. I take nothing at face value, at least until I can do some investigating on my own. Creationism as well as Darwinism. One example about the falsification of Darwinism where facts were tossed out are the pictures of the embryo's supposedly looking similar until they were born. They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

198 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:50:51pm

re: #192 CyanSnowHawk

Mmmm, young troll meat. Better than veal.

Marvo76
Registered since: May 8, 2008 at 4:58 pm
No. of comments posted: 18
No. of links posted: 0

I searched the comments and he/she/it has predominately posted on the creationism posts other than the first night. 14/18 on creationism. Couldn't quite tell if it was troll meat yet or not. Might need to taste a sample first!

199 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:50:53pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

They looked like fauxroglyphics to me.

No, they are real. But just like we have ancient art that have elements in them that look like UFO's (they are angels), and many, many painting of Hell (did the artist take the tour bus or was he there on his own), people who are not experts in art or archeology see all sorts of things in these renderings.

200 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:51:08pm

re: #193 ploome hineni

its already glued to my ass

lol,
i'm only 10lbs. from taking my orange one down.

201 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:51:15pm

Marvo, this is disgusting fraud. They even have the Monterey bay plesiosaurus hoax pics linked. Records from the time show it was the partisially stripped carcass of a beaked whale that washed ashore in 1925.

202 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:51:20pm

re: #151 JamesWI

Thanks for the heads up.

203 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:52:05pm
204 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:52:42pm
205 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #176 ploome hineni

so, any messages while I was out?


The fat man walks alone and the eagle flies at midnight. Call Mr. Rove. He has goodies and treats.

206 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:52:49pm

re: #197 Marvo76

like I said some are suspect, but not all. I try to sift all the different info and see what comes to the top and what gets thrown aside. I take nothing at face value, at least until I can do some investigating on my own. Creationism as well as Darwinism. One example about the falsification of Darwinism where facts were tossed out are the pictures of the embryo's supposedly looking similar until they were born. They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Well, you didn't investigate the "dino" to hard, did you, since the word KROKODILOPARDALIS is sort of like a marquee on the painting.

Me thinks that your simply read something and ran with it.

207 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:53:29pm

re: #194 CyanSnowHawk

Yes- I did. Just now.

208 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:53:54pm
209 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:08pm

re: #201 Thanos

Marvo, this is disgusting fraud. They even have the Monterey bay plesiosaurus hoax pics linked. Records from the time show it was the partisially stripped carcass of a beaked whale that washed ashore in 1925.

I figured some other LGF'ers would get to the other paintings at that link. Thanks.

210 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:08pm

re: #192 CyanSnowHawk

Mmmm, young troll meat. Better than veal.

I would have to go with veal. Troll meat isn't kosher.

211 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:20pm

re: #151 JamesWI

To those who would think of clicking this - major resources for this site include "Dr. Dino" Kent Hovind, and ICR . . .

Well- his kid reads IRC magazines.

212 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:25pm
213 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:36pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Ok, linky please. You're in my territory now. Light-sabre's drawn.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but the only depictions we have found that we could attribute to dinosaurs might be the Sirrush depicted on the Ishtar Gate. But even that design doesn't reflect any known type of dino, so it would have to fall into as of yet unknown animal.

214 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:57pm
215 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:09pm

re: #201 Thanos

Marvo, this is disgusting fraud. They even have the Monterey bay plesiosaurus hoax pics linked. Records from the time show it was the partisially stripped carcass of a beaked whale that washed ashore in 1925.

It's hard to tell the ID'ers from the Fortean folks now a days.

216 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:22pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

Heh, amateurs!

217 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:27pm

re: #182 coquimbojoe

Because you come to the discussion ignorant with 'dubious' (your word) sources. You have ignored the science posted of this site. Your arguments make you silly and lack any weight or truth. I rarely belittle people, but you are spewing crap here that doesn't lend itself to debate, rather, in my opinion, only derision. Keep it up though, your ignorance and credulity stands as a warning to many.

And I am a believer in God and the Earth as His creation.

and yet you are debating, as for crap, Darwinism is just as full of such bovine excretement, but to one who is going forward with the idea that "there is no reason to debate because you can't possibly be as smart as me or the sources of my info" You prove the old adage, "there are none so blind as those who wil not see" and yet I will be willing to look at any credible links you post and keep an open mind.....without derision

218 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:30pm

re: #147 Thanos

Now there's a hoot, whoever put that together has been cribbing from von danniken and doesn't know a dino from an anteater.

Good grief.

219 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:36pm

re: #201 Thanos

It also touts the old Abydos temple conspiracy theory.

On the left, another view of the relief on Egyptian temple wall at Abydos. "Dr. Ruth Hover, and her husband

took a trip to the pyramids and temples of Egypt. In the temple at Abydios, she photographed a wall panel in a section where an overlaying panel with Egyptian heiroglyphics crumbled and fell, revealing an older panel beneath it. This older panel, shown below, contains embossed images of what appear to be ancient aircraft."

What we do know about these images is that they are not fakes. By that we mean, that the images do actually exist. What is in question then is what do they mean--what do they represent? Egyptologists certainly think that they know what they mean. Their explanation includes the notion that it is a combined image of a later symbol over an older one.

Of course, those same experts can't adequately explain how the pyramids were built, how and why the Egyptian civiliztion appeared fully developed or why the oldest pyramid, the Great Pyramid was built with higher technology than later pyramids.

On these pages, because the items we're looking at usually aren't being scrutinized by science or experts, there is a liklihood that some objects will turn out to have fairly straightforward explanations. This could be the case here. However, undeniably we have what nearly 100% of people would recognize as an advanced modern helicopter--if they didn't know where it had been found. Add to that the fact that symbols proximate to the "helicopter" also appear to be instruments of war. It's certainly an interesting find.

Unfortunately this has been nicely debunked. (Though it does seem to have helped along the plot of Stargate, which is cool.)

220 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:09pm

re: #185 ploome hineni

Capt'n Marvo is getting upset?

/SHAZZAM

ROTFL!

221 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:10pm

re: #212 Thanos

[Link: dinocreationistsfairytale.wordpress.com. ..]


There we go.

222 Pullus Iulius  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:10pm

For the general amusement and classical enlightenment, I will link this: Bestiary of Ancient Greek Mythology & Legend. But if these fantastical creatures prove anyone's creation story, I am afraid it would be the one involving the Titans and Zeus.

223 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:14pm

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

Well- one clearly looked like a depiction of greek mythology- because, you know, they didn't have any freaky creatures in them- not at all. ;)

224 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:30pm

re: #123 buzzsawmonkey

They'd be terrible at teaching science; all their work violates the Laws of Motion. They consistently disprove "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction," since for every action in their films there is an unequal and overwhelming reaction.

They also reject the notion of cause and effect as being unislamic. An article in the New York Times, How Islam Won, and Lost, the Lead in Science quotes Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani professor of physics:

Dr. Hoodbhoy said such groups had criticized the concept of cause and effect. Educational guidelines once issued by the Institute for Policy Studies in Pakistan, for example, included the recommendation that physical effects not be related to causes.

For example, it was not Islamic to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. ''You were supposed to say,'' Dr. Hoodbhoy recounted, ''that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then by the will of Allah water was created.''

225 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:57pm

re: #203 ploome hineni

your own investigating,

like what?

digging in the Russian gulag for fossils?

I am willing to look at other sources of info, got any links? I am willing to look at them, if you have time to dig them up...

226 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:57:27pm

I think Marvo might be on to something.

Proof that really big-headed people once roamed this planet.

227 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:57:28pm

Next will be talking about the "Bagdad Battery"

228 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:57:38pm

re: #222 Pullus Iulius

Wow- were we on a similar wave length just then?

229 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:58:38pm
230 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:58:51pm

re: #215 Walter L. Newton

It's hard to tell the ID'ers from the Fortean folks now a days.

At least most Forteans just list anomalous things and don't try to convince others that it's science.

231 Pullus Iulius  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:58:55pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Frightening. I am unworthy.

232 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:09pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

Well- one clearly looked like a depiction of greek mythology- because, you know, they didn't have any freaky creatures in them- not at all. ;)

Well, according to the kind of logic Marvo uses, he must believe in Zeus and the whole gang of merry gods, all that Greek art proves it.

233 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:14pm

re: #215 Walter L. Newton

It's hard to tell the ID'ers from the Fortean folks now a days.

Yes it is, if you leaf through the pages you will find that they've discovered Atlantis... three times in three different places. They've cribbed from all the pseudoscience frauds of the sixties apparently to put this together.

I see photo's from Ancient Astronauts, some speculation from Berlitz, etc.

234 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:21pm

re: #197 Marvo76

like I said some are suspect, but not all. I try to sift all the different info and see what comes to the top and what gets thrown aside. I take nothing at face value, at least until I can do some investigating on my own. Creationism as well as Darwinism. One example about the falsification of Darwinism where facts were tossed out are the pictures of the embryo's supposedly looking similar until they were born. They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Ummmmmmm...how do you remember what your elementary science books were like 30-40 years ago? Also, was your science class in ELEMENTARY school teaching reproduction 30-40 years ago?

235 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:26pm

re: #227 Walter L. Newton
That is what Bagdad Bob used for a backup power source.

236 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:45pm
237 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:00:11pm
238 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:00:22pm

re: #226 Noam Sayin'

I think Marvo might be on to something.

Proof that really big-headed people once roamed this planet.

It is obvious that this race of people died out due to their inability to compete with modern humans, who had arms.

Darwinism in action, I'd say.

239 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:00:29pm

re: #235 pingjockey

That is what Bagdad Bob used for a backup power source.

LOL

240 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:00:49pm

re: #231 Pullus Iulius

It's proof, PROOF! I tell you- that humans and dinos existed together!

241 Claire  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:01:12pm

re: #134 Marvo76

An Anasazi petroglyph of the Sinclair Dinosaur? ROFL, lol, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

OMG, I have tears in my eyes.......lol.

242 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:01:19pm

re: #52 Charles

It's just astounding to me that there are creationists so locked into their belief system that they can't even see anything wrong with joining forces with Harun Yahya.

But there it is.

The "Related Links" at that site suggest an agenda that goes way beyond refutation of darwinism. I've bolded some for emphasis:

www.bbcrefuted.com
[Link: www.creationofman.net...]
[Link: www.creationofuniverse.com...]
[Link: www.darwinismrefuted.com...]
[Link: www.darwinism-watch.com...]
www.dayofjudgment.com
[Link: www.eastturkestan.net...]
www.endoftimes.net
[Link: www.evidencesofcreation.com...]
[Link: www.evolutiondeceit.com...]
[Link: www.evolutiondocumentary.com...]
[Link: www.freebookcenter.net...]
[Link: www.for-children.com...]
[Link: www.globalfreemasonry.com...]
[Link: www.harunyahya.com...]
[Link: www.insight-magazine.com...]
www.islamandbuddhism.com
[Link: www.islamandkarma.com...]
[Link: www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com...]
[Link: www.islamdenouncesantisemitism.com...]
[Link: www.jesuswillreturn.com...]

[Link: www.miraclesofthequran.com...]
[Link: www.noblequran.info...]
www.palestiniantragedy.com
[Link: www.paradiseinthequran.com...]
www.perishednations.com
[Link: www.theprophetmuhammad.org...]
www.riseofislam.com
[Link: www.secretbeyondmatter.com...]
www.servingislam.com
[Link: www.signsofthelastday.com...]

[Link: www.srf-tr.org...]
www.theistsunited.com
[Link: www.truthsforkids.com...]
www.unionoffaiths.com
[Link: www.worldwarsunveiled.com...]
243 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:01:24pm

re: #238 Cicero05

It is obvious that this race of people died out due to their inability to compete with modern humans, who had arms.

Darwinism in action, I'd say.

That, and they kept falling over.

244 Pullus Iulius  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:01:25pm

re: #240 Sharmuta

And nymphs. Don't forget the nymphs.

245 Reno911  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:02:02pm

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe in some version of divine revelation...

or not.

246 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:02:32pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Well at least one thing I noted in here has some fact to it, "One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11. In a piece of overt symbolic theatre the book’s creators marked the anniversary of 9/11 last year by sending the Atlas to a large number of Protestant priests across Europe. The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united." It was Hitlers belief in Darwinism that propelled him to the "final solution", in fact he is quoted as as referring to Darwin to prove the Aryan race was superior....

Sigh...please go back and read the dozens of threads on this topic before you continue to spout this falsehood.

Hitler's belief in the PSEUDOSCIENCE of "Social Darwinism"--a twisted, bastardized, unscientific application of supposed evolutionary principles to human society--was ONE of MANY "justifications" Hitler and the Nazis came up with for the Final Solution. Hitler probably did not even really understand Darwin's theory, or care to. Please present evidence that Hitler's "belief in Darwinism," and "Darwinism" alone, "propelled" him to the Final Solution. Also, please provide the quote you refer to. There is nothing in Darwin's writings, when read in full context and not partially quoted or misquoted, that can be used to prove the Aryan race was superior. By the way, people used the Bible to justify slavery, you know.

that being said, with all the fossils in evidence in thousands of drawers in hundred of museums, have you ever seen a solid family tree of ANY species? Where are all the transition fossils? You would think they would have a solid set of at least one species in the multitudes that they have discover and cataloged over the last two hundred years or so....

There are thousands upon thousands of transitional fossils. There are several fairly solid transitional sequences, such as the evolution of the horse, the development of the bones of the inner ear, the transition from land mammal to early whale, and just a couple days ago Charles posted on the evolution of the flounder.

I'm sorry, but let me be blunt. This is the age of the Internet. There is really no excuse for your profound ignorance or your attempt to foist it on others. Just type "transitional fossil sequences" into any search engine and dozens of resources will magically reveal themselves to you.

Oops. Did I say "magical?" Actually, it's science.

247 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:02:55pm

re: #241 Claire
You think that is funny? It is sad that some one would believe that photoshopped thing was real. But, it was damn funny!

248 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:03:04pm

re: #244 Pullus Iulius

But there's more! Absolute proof of human/dino co-existence!

249 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:03:10pm

re: #233 Thanos

Yes it is, if you leaf through the pages you will find that they've discovered Atlantis... three times in three different places. They've cribbed from all the pseudoscience frauds of the sixties apparently to put this together.

I see photo's from Ancient Astronauts, some speculation from Berlitz, etc.

Shameless self-promo - back in the 70's, I had a once a month radio show on a 50 thou watt station in Dallas, SAt. midnight to 5am discussing those subjects.

Things really got interesting about 2:20, right after the last call at the bars.

Come to think about it, that's where I heard the name Marvo.

Walter in Golden, Co.

250 Wonder95  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:03:23pm
Examples cited of a growing creationist influence ranged from subtle downgrading of evolution in science education to outright attacks on the validity of Darwinism and the personality of Darwin himself.

Oh my gosh! How dare anybody ever question the great Darwin! Evolution is fact! Doesn't everybody know that?!?

251 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:03:38pm

More proof of the coexistence of man and dinosaurs.

252 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:15pm

Well, I can prove that we evolved. At one time we had a flute growing from our nose, now we don't. Ask the Anasazi.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yippie.

253 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:20pm

OK. I am now officially flabbergasted.

Humans. Riding dinosaurs.

Bwa. Bwa ha. Bwa hahahhaha.

Sorry. I just can't help myself.

254 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:25pm

re: #185 ploome hineni

Capt'n Marvo is getting upset?

/SHAZZAM

Bwhahahah that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago. I touched a high voltage tube in the back of a TV and all my lab partner could say was "shazaam man it's captain Marvo" the name stuck LOL but no I am not upset, I learn from the debate to improve my info, and if something isn't up to what it is supposed to be, then I am willing to bend on my convictions, and still not deride someone for their info.

255 Wonder95  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:33pm

Clarification: my quote above had a </extreme_sarcasm> tag at the end which was not displayed

256 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:45pm

I am a little incredulous that Islam has anything significant to say about creationism.

However I think taqquiya (sp?) is really the order of the the day with this kook. We will see more nonsensical alignments like this because getting the infidels to tear each other apart will make it easier to subjugate them.

257 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:13pm

re: #250 Wonder95

The great thing about science is that if you do some work that will disprove the theory, you'll be rich and famous.

258 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:16pm

re: #253 Charles
Ain't that great art work?! Mwahahaha!

259 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:17pm

re: #236 ploome hineni

does your mommy know where you are?

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

260 Da_Beerfreak  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:38pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

"reality is a problem and must be corrected."

Now there's a rotating title!

261 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:48pm
262 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:07:25pm

re: #254 Marvo76

Bwhahahah that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago. I touched a high voltage tube in the back of a TV and all my lab partner could say was "shazaam man it's captain Marvo" the name stuck LOL but no I am not upset, I learn from the debate to improve my info, and if something isn't up to what it is supposed to be, then I am willing to bend on my convictions, and still not deride someone for their info.

And you are taking our ribbing in good spirits. I don't think anyone has done anything more than point some things out, some with good humor, some with sternness, but no one is deriding you.

263 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:07:43pm

re: #253 Charles

OK. I am now officially flabbergasted.

Humans. Riding dinosaurs.

Bwa. Bwa ha. Bwa hahahhaha.

Sorry. I just can't help myself.

You laugh.

264 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:07:47pm

re: #260 Da_Beerfreak

Now there's a rotating title!

It already is, sort of. "reality is a mistake, we must rectify it"

/saw it on my way in here

265 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:07:58pm

re: #248 Sharmuta

Haven't you seen Klanus fogysarus?

266 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:08:12pm

Back. Knowing the frantic pace of these ID threads, the only question I can ask at this point is:

What did I miss?

267 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:08:27pm

Marvo,

I suggest that you get your son a subscription to the Skeptical Inquirer and start reading that instead.

[Link: www.skeptic.com...]

268 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:08:42pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

Well, you didn't investigate the "dino" to hard, did you, since the word KROKODILOPARDALIS is sort of like a marquee on the painting.

Me thinks that your simply read something and ran with it.

Also sounds like he is cribbing from some old talking points from the D.I. Nothing works better than the lies that worked before (or something like that).

269 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:08:52pm

re: #266 laZardo
Everything and nothing. Heh.

270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:09:07pm

re: #13 Racer X

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

Made me really happy. Supposed to be satire of how conservatives think of BH and M Obama.

First of all, "Hey New Yorker, I do not think of BHO as a Muslim, and I think claims about it are silly. Don't know Michelle...said a couple of dumb things, but I don't see her as a Militant Black Panther either.

I do think BHO is as a f'n commie.

271 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:09:53pm

re: #267 Thanos

Marvo,

I suggest that you get your son a subscription to the Skeptical Inquirer and start reading that instead.

[Link: www.skeptic.com...]

That's a good suggestion. Great magazine.

272 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:09:58pm

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

Sonny?

Ploome is a lady, a delicate flower, a most refined and elegant personage.

273 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:10:42pm

re: #267 Thanos

Marvo,

I suggest that you get your son a subscription to the Skeptical Inquirer and start reading that instead.

Or better still, Stagworld.

274 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:10:51pm

re: #246 Tigger2005

There are thousands upon thousands of transitional fossils. There are several fairly solid transitional sequences, such as the evolution of the horse, the development of the bones of the inner ear, the transition from land mammal to early whale, and just a couple days ago Charles posted on the evolution of the flounder.

I'm sorry, but let me be blunt. This is the age of the Internet. There is really no excuse for your profound ignorance or your attempt to foist it on others. Just type "transitional fossil sequences" into any search engine and dozens of resources will magically reveal themselves to you.

Oops. Did I say "magical?" Actually, it's science.

I guess I need to check that out, I don't have all day to sit on the net, I do work for a living after all. I will check some of them out when I get some time. Should they convince me I will be more than happy to eat some crow....This should temper the lynch mob which wishes to dispatch me like a common beggar LOL.

275 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:10:54pm

re: #242 abolitionist


Looks to be of 12th Imam eschatological influence n'est ce pas?

276 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:10:59pm

re: #266 laZardo

About 30 minutes of evolution.

277 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:20pm

re: #254 Marvo76

that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago

re: #197 Marvo76

Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Perhaps some Lizards with greater mathematical skills can help me out but, if you were in grade school in the 60s, how could you be in high school more than 30 years ago?

278 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:33pm

re: #270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I get the feeling The New Yorker is about to lose a lot of subscribers.

279 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:40pm
280 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:44pm

re: #267 Thanos

Marvo,

I suggest that you get your son a subscription to the Skeptical Inquirer and start reading that instead.

[Link: www.skeptic.com...]

I can do that!

281 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:51pm

re: #253 Charles

You laugh, but what about those poor humans that the dinosaurs ate!

282 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:55pm

re: #271 Walter L. Newton

That's a good suggestion. Great magazine.

Used to read it when it was the "Zetetic" and nobody knew who Penn and Teller were.

283 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:57pm

re: #270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Made me really happy. Supposed to be satire of how conservatives think of BH and M Obama.

First of all, "Hey New Yorker, I do not think of BHO as a Muslim, and I think claims about it are silly. Don't know Michelle...said a couple of dumb things, but I don't see her as a Militant Black Panther either.

I do think BHO is as a f'n commie.

And it back fired on the mag. I have been reading comments on other blogs and news sites tonight and the pinheads (did I say that) are all up in arms, thinking that they are making fun of B&M.

284 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:12:04pm

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

Sonny?

You really don't read here much, do you?

285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:12:09pm

re: #253 Charles

Nobody seems to remember Marshall, Will and Holly. They were on a routine expedition, then, there was the greatest earthquake ever known ....

286 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:18pm

re: #277 MandyManners

that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago

re: #197 Marvo76

Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Perhaps some Lizards with greater mathematical skills can help me out but, if you were in grade school in the 60s, how could you be in high school more than 30 years ago?

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

Those three posts don't compute for me.

287 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:31pm

re: #277 MandyManners

that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago

re: #197 Marvo76

Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Perhaps some Lizards with greater mathematical skills can help me out but, if you were in grade school in the 60s, how could you be in high school more than 30 years ago?

graduated 1976, today is 2008, 32 years unless my math is bad, started school in 1964 in first grade...

288 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:45pm

re: #279 ploome hineni

hee-hee.

But ya know, you could at least have given me an upding for the glowing description.

289 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:47pm

re: #278 Racer X

Oh come on. They will have McCain in a brownshirt next issue and everyone will come back.

290 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:59pm

re: #277 MandyManners
Mandy, I graduated in 1977, 1977 + 30 = 2007
1977-12=1965. I was 6 in 1965 when I was in the 1st grade.

291 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:05pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nobody seems to remember Marshall, Will and Holly. They were on a routine expedition, then, there was the greatest earthquake ever known ....

ROFLMAO!

292 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:07pm

re: #229 ploome hineni

remember Capt'n Marvel

/Mohammed ACCCCCCCCChmed Shazam does

Why yes I do remember Cap'n Marvel.

/Did you say 'ACCCCCCCCChmed'?

293 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:19pm

re: #274 Marvo76

I guess I need to check that out, I don't have all day to sit on the net, I do work for a living after all. I will check some of them out when I get some time. Should they convince me I will be more than happy to eat some crow....This should temper the lynch mob which wishes to dispatch me like a common beggar LOL.

Ok Marvo, nothing works like a charm here. And what's more, playing the poor me line doesn't hack it. We are debating a subject, you jumped in, we jumped back and we are all learning something.

If we were a "lynch mob" you wouldn't be able to respond, you'd be finished.

294 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:22pm

re: #283 Walter L. Newton

And it back fired on the mag. I have been reading comments on other blogs and news sites tonight and the pinheads (did I say that) are all up in arms, thinking that they are making fun of B&M.

Don't they understand that the thin skinned dumb bastards will never understand satire?

295 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:26pm
296 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:27pm

re: #279 ploome hineni

*snort*

:D

My bad LOL I will know better next time. You young whiper snapper LOL

297 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:29pm

Snort ... hehehe ... heh ... snuck .... bwahahaha!

Sorry, I just can't seem to stop.

That has to be one of the most hilarious creationist links I've ever seen.

298 Reno911  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:32pm

re: #277 MandyManners

I was in grade school in the 60's and graduated high school more than 30 years ago.

I think.

299 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:40pm

re: #283 Walter L. Newton

And it back fired on the mag. I have been reading comments on other blogs and news sites tonight and the pinheads (did I say that) are all up in arms, thinking that they are making fun of B&M.

They failed to take into account one of the key attributes of the left: no sense of humor.

300 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:15:25pm

re: #291 Racer X

Thank you for catching that.

301 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:15:42pm
302 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:15:55pm

re: #299 ErnieG

Bingo!

303 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:18pm

re: #297 Charles
I have to go back and look at all that goofy art work. Priceless.

304 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:26pm

re: #294 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Don't they understand that the thin skinned dumb bastards will never understand satire?

Unless they are writing/drawing the "so claimed satire" which is their favorite wat to excuse their excesses.

305 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:30pm

re: #298 Reno911

I was in grade school in the 60's and graduated high school more than 30 years ago.

I think.

I just try

not

to think about it. In my head I'm mid-20's.

306 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:32pm
307 jcw46  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:38pm

Is it possible that when someone supplies a counter argument (however misguided and rehashed) but does not include negative personal comments that the perceived target answers without negative personal comments. This is what bothers me most about these threads is the incivility and ad hominem attacks (a propensity of the left mind you).

Comments like; 'you ignorant idiot' or 'are you stupid or what' serve no purpose. Anyone who resorts to name calling or categorizing their target as less than worthy of respect shows a lack of maturity and only results in the targets sense of being attacked.

Zealots are the true danger and zealotry is found EVERYWHERE (even here). True believers are only interested in one thing; conversion of those whose opinions differ from theirs. THAT is what we should be concerned about. Self-righteousness turns into zealotry morphs into fascism then expands into terrorism and becomes an engine of death to all disbelievers.

308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:44pm

re: #301 ploome hineni

Dinged you up on that! (heh)

309 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:55pm

I dun gradiiated grade skool in the 60's. Twice.

310 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:55pm

re: #293 Walter L. Newton

Ok Marvo, nothing works like a charm here. And what's more, playing the poor me line doesn't hack it. We are debating a subject, you jumped in, we jumped back and we are all learning something.

If we were a "lynch mob" you wouldn't be able to respond, you'd be finished.

it wasn't you I was refering to, you have kept the debate civil there was another who rsorted to snide comments about my person. I would have to scroll up and look but the shower is sounding better all the time ( and todays sweat is getting worse...)

311 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:17:13pm

re: #23 coquimbojoe

I think the argument of the creationists goes something like this -- Darwin de-linked humans with the Divine or the Holy. Darwin suggested that humans were no different (qualitatively) from animals. According to Darwin, humans and animals have a shared biology (common origins). The creationists then argue that such a belief "frees" humans from moral responsibility (that is, if people are animals, then people need only follow their basest, animal instincts and need not bother with morality -- there's no imperative to act "humanely.") In the "olden days" (that's pre-Darwin), people and animals were distinct/separate categories (no overlap). Animals were not expected to exhibit "morals", but people were. In the post-Darwin age (so the Creationists argue), certain animal species become imbued with "rights", while people behave increasingly like inhuman animals...I believe this is the gist of their arguments.

312 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:17:33pm

re: #286 MandyManners

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

Those three posts don't compute for me.

They do for me since I am 49, graduated from HS in '77 (30+1 years), and did go to grade school (kindergarten) starting in '64. His other "facts" seem to be cribbed straight out of talking points from the D.I., though.

313 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:17:40pm

re: #297 Charles

Snort ... hehehe ... heh ... snuck .... bwahahaha!

Sorry, I just can't seem to stop.

That has to be one of the most hilarious creationist links I've ever seen.

And then there was the Piltdown Man...

314 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:18:32pm

re: #310 Marvo76

it wasn't you I was refering to, you have kept the debate civil there was another who rsorted to snide comments about my person. I would have to scroll up and look but the shower is sounding better all the time ( and todays sweat is getting worse...)

Noted.

315 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:18:33pm

re: #253 Charles

Uh, did you forget Fred Flintstone?

316 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:19:31pm

re: #310 Marvo76

it wasn't you I was refering to, you have kept the debate civil there was another who rsorted to snide comments about my person. I would have to scroll up and look but the shower is sounding better all the time ( and todays sweat is getting worse...)

Come on, don't give me that much credit, I have been at least a little snide.

317 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:19:46pm

re: #308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dinged you up on that! (heh)

So did I. But - shhh - don't let her know . . .

318 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:19:48pm

re: #256 unclassifiable

I am a little incredulous that Islam has anything significant to say about creationism.

However I think taqquiya (sp?) is really the order of the the day with this kook. We will see more nonsensical alignments like this because getting the infidels to tear each other apart will make it easier to subjugate them.

that is exactly what the rop'ers are up to. they could give a shite abt. any christian's take on creationism.
this is a strategic move to cause discord.
the secular world is hardly an enemy to christians.
they should not be throwing in w/ 7th century barbarians.
this is a bad move.

319 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:19:49pm

re: #287 Marvo76

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

320 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:20:54pm

re: #319 MandyManners

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

I love you... get right to the point, don't ya.

321 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:21:19pm

re: #301 ploome hineni

i am against the ding system

It is not part of my LGF experience

I dinged you up just for that.

*rad*

322 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:21:23pm
323 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:21:39pm

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

LOL.
sonny is working on getting into HER bikini

324 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:22:23pm

re: #322 ploome hineni

...when only ad hominem is the correct response

Rotating title.

325 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:22:33pm

re: #320 Walter L. Newton

I love you... get right to the point, don't ya.

To paraphrase Judge Judy, if something doesn't make sense, it's not true.

To further paraphrase her, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

326 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:22:35pm

re: #311 J.S.

I think the argument of the creationists goes something like this -- Darwin de-linked humans with the Divine or the Holy. Darwin suggested that humans were no different (qualitatively) from animals. According to Darwin, humans and animals have a shared biology (common origins). The creationists then argue that such a belief "frees" humans from moral responsibility (that is, if people are animals, then people need only follow their basest, animal instincts and need not bother with morality -- there's no imperative to act "humanely.") In the "olden days" (that's pre-Darwin), people and animals were distinct/separate categories (no overlap). Animals were not expected to exhibit "morals", but people were. In the post-Darwin age (so the Creationists argue), certain animal species become imbued with "rights", while people behave increasingly like inhuman animals...I believe this is the gist of their arguments.

that actually happened in spain the other day when they agred to give apes/chimps rights...

327 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:23:08pm

re: #325 MandyManners

To paraphrase Judge Judy, if something doesn't make sense, it's not true.

To further paraphrase her, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

I forget, are you from the NYC area?

328 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:23:23pm

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

I'm reading that page, and I'm just dyin' over here. That site is a gold mine of creationist comedy!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

329 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:23:45pm

re: #297 Charles

Why is it the real kook sites also suck at web design?

You could cook dinner waiting for the thumbnails to download.

330 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:23:54pm
331 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:20pm

re: #326 Marvo76

that actually happened in spain the other day when they agred to give apes/chimps rights...

Touche' (well, a point well made, yes)

And you're right, there are some dingbats on both sides of things, aren't there.

332 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:31pm

re: #319 MandyManners

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

I did see those in a biology book when I was young, but I wouldn't pin down exactly where or when. I was quite surprised that they were frauds.

Of course since I often quested in the dustiest corners of the libraries when I was young it could have been a really old book.

333 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:32pm

The earth is only 4.5 Billion years old. A lot can happen in 4.5 billion years. Look what has gone down just in the past few thousand years.

What will things look like on earth in a hundred years?

200 years?

A thousand years from now?

Think bigger.

334 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:42pm

Thanks to the Lizards who did the math for me.

335 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:54pm

re: #328 Charles

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

I'm reading that page, and I'm just dyin' over here. That site is a gold mine of creationist comedy!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

This site is satire, right? All this just has to be satire.

336 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:09pm

Are those ... airplanes flying over the pyramids?

You gotta see the homepage!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

337 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:11pm

re: #319 MandyManners
I don't think our grade! school science books had pics of embryos. I do remember the chart for phylem and phloem. IIRC. Stuff by Mendel.

338 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:11pm

re: #311 J.S.

About the only thing I believe that fundamentally distinguishes humans from animals is that humans are consciously aware of their own existence.

/that's all I got to say about that...

339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:29pm

re: #328 Charles

Charles, as I've mentioned before, I have a friend who believes that the dinosaur bones are the bones of the angels that God kicked out of heaven with the devil.

340 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:29pm

re: #336 Charles
Pterodactyls at Gitmo, with eyewitnesses.

341 DesertSage  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:33pm

I believe that God created the universe.
I guess I'm a "creationist"?

342 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:37pm

re: #327 Walter L. Newton

I forget, are you from the NYC area?

Nope. But, I'd like to be.

343 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:37pm

re: #297 Charles

Laugh on. Dinosaurs of Eden by Ken Ham

The autographed copy that was gifted to me went to the local landfill.

344 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:01pm

re: #325 MandyManners

Its the folks who piss on your leg just to piss on your leg that grind my gears.

345 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:07pm

Gitmo link: [Link: www.s8int.com...]

346 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:08pm

re: #255 Wonder95

Clarification: my quote above had a </extreme_sarcasm> tag at the end which was not displayed

If you enclose it in < > and don't put a space right after the opening left arrow, like this < tag >, it might be interpreted as an html tag and not displayed.

347 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:10pm

re: #328 Charles

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

I'm reading that page, and I'm just dyin' over here. That site is a gold mine of creationist comedy!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

A throbbing gif. Charles, have you been working on their website?

348 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:19pm

re: #326 Marvo76

that actually happened in spain the other day when they agred to give apes/chimps rights...

Got a link?

349 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:26pm

Fellow Lizards,

I'm a relatively new hatchling in these parts and therefore of neither mind nor disposition to become emotionally entangled in this particularly odious debate.

And it most certainly IS odious. One can cut the acrimony with a knife - assuming it can be wrested from the hands of one side or the other. Far too many articles on this subject here at LGF are splattered with a bitter alloy of intellectual blood and emotional bile.

The passion here in the Lizard Domain is understandable and a microcosm of the greater debate in out nation and in the world: many of those who do not believe in a God of creation fear the emergence of a theocracy that would lash the followers of Darwin to the heretical stake; many of those who reject evolution as the origin of species fear the triumph of a militant atheocracy that would banish those who believe in God entirely to the confines of a gulag.

Both are correct, insofar as every school of thought has its extremists and yet both are tragically misguided. What pains me most as a conservative is that the heat generated by the extremities may be of such intensity as to ignite and consume the combustible center, thereby rendering our cause sufficiently impotent with regard to the those who present a very clear and very present danger to our lives and our liberty.

Unlike the Mohammedans, whose rejection of the very reason embraced by the greatest minds of Western civilization (Aristotle, Aquinas, Burke, et al) weds itself till death to a slavishly literal interpretation of their Koran, Americans of all stripes can appeal to both reason and our own Constitution, neither of which condones either the substitution of what we believe as a matter of faith for what our eyes perceive as a matter of science or the abolition of what it believes as a matter of faith because the eyes of science cannot perceive it.

Must I remind my fellow Lizards that numerous men of science - whose academic and intellectual credentials are indisputable - were (and many of them are today) devoutly religious people? Moreover, numerous others - whose theological credentials are beyond question - were (and are today) dedicated men of empirical science.

While they who sincerely believe in the Judeo-Christian God must embrace both their religion AND the cold verdict of empirical science, it is likewise true that they who sincerely believe only the cold data revealed by empirical science must refrain from affirming or denying that which science cannot quantify or qualify.

The scientist who denies the existence of God betrays all those upon whose shoulders he stands, while the deist who denies the verdict of empirical science reviles the God of his fathers who, according to his faith, is the foundation of all reason.

As for the question of so-called "intelligent design," the answer is blindingly obvious: the empirical science of our day can neither affirm nor deny it, anymore than it can affirm or deny the existence of God.

As for those whose zeal for "intelligent design" would impel them to embrace a common cause with Mohammedans who have avowed our destruction as a civilization, I can only remind them that you cannot have Falstaff and have him thin.

Hopefully, I have given some here reason for pause. I have prattled on quite enough...thank you for your time.

Best regards,

Nemo

350 neocon hippie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:37pm

It's come up every now and then that there seem to be quite a few lizards born in something like 1958-1963 or thereabouts. I'm one, having been born in 1959. We're somewhere on the Baby Boom/Gen X cusp.

351 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:00pm

re: #335 FurryOldGuyJeans

This site is satire, right? All this just has to be satire.

Too much work for a joke, but not for a labor of love.

352 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:10pm
353 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:37pm

re: #349 NemoParticularis

Umm.

Ok.

354 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:39pm

re: #336 Charles

See my second link in #219.

355 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:47pm
356 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:28:08pm

re: #319 MandyManners

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

I remembered the illustration in my science book, when I saw the argument in my son's book "Tornado in the junkyard" I recalled it. It is a curse that I can remember things like that. The quote was from my son's book, he was up and I had him get it because I couldn't recall the name of the fraud who drew up the pictures. Sorry bout that, I can't help what you may believe of me. Would it help to tell you that I can remember the apartment we lived in when I was 3? even some of the things I did while we lived there.

357 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:28:21pm

re: #272 reine.de.tout

Sonny?

Ploome is a lady, a delicate flower, a most refined and elegant personage.

With a bikini stuck to her butt.

358 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:28:34pm

re: #355 ploome hineni

Well, that too. q:

359 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:28:50pm

re: #341 DesertSage

I believe that God created the universe.
I guess I'm a "creationist"?

So do I but, I don't believe that Genesis is completely literal. I think God used all kinds of stuff to create this world, and His children.

360 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:29:12pm

re: #336 Charles

Are those ... airplanes flying over the pyramids?

You gotta see the homepage!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

Ok, I've poked around there some more. All I can say is the ghost of Von daniken.

361 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:29:35pm

re: #336 Charles

Are those ... airplanes flying over the pyramids?

You gotta see the homepage!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

The mecha voice personality appears in lots of Harun Yahya vids, presumably because he doesn't want people hearing Turkish accents.

362 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:29:44pm

Ken Ham's Creation Museum in Kentucky actually does have a model of a triceratops wearing a saddle.

(I've got to admit, my grandson would love to have one of these. Actually, come to think, I would too.)

363 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:29:52pm

re: #348 MandyManners

Got a link?


[Link: blogs.nature.com...]

364 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:01pm

I admit, I've never looked into this creationist-dinosaur fixation, but man oh man.

Dinosaurs by Design by Duane Gish.

365 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:12pm
366 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:28pm

re: #345 jaunte

Gitmo link: [Link: www.s8int.com...]

Oh, that has got to be a joke.

367 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:39pm

re: #349 NemoParticularis

What you said.

368 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:57pm

re: #364 Charles

I admit, I've never looked into this creationist-dinosaur fixation, but man oh man.

Dinosaurs by Design by Duane Gish.

Want it delivered Tuesday, July 15?

369 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:31:08pm

re: #348 MandyManners

Got a link?

it was on either drudge or Worldnet daily, but maybe Mr. Newton could help you out there, I don't have it handy.

370 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:31:09pm

So long, farewell, Auf wiedersehen, good night, I hate to go and leave this pretty sight....

G'night Lizards!

371 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:31:59pm
372 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:31:59pm

re: #351 ErnieG

Too much work for a joke, but not for a labor of love.

Good satire would take this much work to be really effective. But the more I look the more I see the person is quite serious in their moonbattery. Yikes.

373 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:00pm

oops seems he beat me to it Thanks sir

374 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:20pm
375 DesertSage  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:21pm

re: #359 MandyManners

So do I but, I don't believe that Genesis is completely literal. I think God used all kinds of stuff to create this world, and His children.

We believe the same thing. We're still considered creationists.

376 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:26pm

re: #330 ploome hineni

the koran says man was created from a blod clot

/aaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

now that is a vulgar creationist theory.

377 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:45pm

re: #353 Mars Needs Neocons

Umm.

Ok.

Whew. No knife. Always a good thing. Unless, of course, you are presented with a less-than-fork-tender steak.

378 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:55pm

re: #366 reine.de.tout

Oh, that has got to be a joke.

It's definitely not a joke. It's got that distinctive smell of obsessed kook all over it.

379 wolfie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:12pm

re: #311 J.S.

In so far as they are concerned about so-called "Darwinian" philosophies or ideologies, they have a valid and important point to make. We deny that at our peril.
But Darwin's own work and modern evolution theory are science, not philosophy or ideology. The latter do not necessarily follow from the former. That is where I think the mistake is made.

It's rather like some of the radical feminists who have denied or fought any scientific evidence of emotional or mental differences between men and women. They are assuming, incorrectly IMO, that knowledge of that sort must necessarily lead to unequal treatment of women.

380 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:23pm

re: #356 Marvo76

I remembered the illustration in my science book, when I saw the argument in my son's book "Tornado in the junkyard" I recalled it. It is a curse that I can remember things like that. The quote was from my son's book, he was up and I had him get it because I couldn't recall the name of the fraud who drew up the pictures. Sorry bout that, I can't help what you may believe of me. Would it help to tell you that I can remember the apartment we lived in when I was 3? even some of the things I did while we lived there.

My X has eidetic memory so, I believe that it is possible that you remember those things.

I apologize.

But, I still think ID has no business in public schools except in a class on comparative religions.

381 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:40pm

Thank you all for the debate, I need to wash my scuzzy butt, and hit the hay. I will try to remember the people I have had the pleasure of chatting with here. Good night all!

382 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:43pm
383 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:54pm

re: #369 Marvo76

it was on either drudge or Worldnet daily, but maybe Mr. Newton could help you out there, I don't have it handy.

Stop it with the patronizing tone. Okay?

385 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:34:13pm

re: #349 NemoParticularis

Must I remind my fellow Lizards that numerous men of science - whose academic and intellectual credentials are indisputable - were (and many of them are today) devoutly religious people? Moreover, numerous others - whose theological credentials are beyond question - were (and are today) dedicated men of empirical science.

No one here is denying that. Nor is anyone here arguing that it's some sort of a problem.

What we are discussing is that ID is not science and doesn't belong in a science classroom, and that the people pushing ID are in bed with islamic creationists, which many of us (and you'd think all of us) have a problem with.

386 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:34:13pm

re: #338 laZardo

There have been some new experiments in self-awareness in chimps. (Some early studies have now been deemed inadequate or flawed.) The use of language (or a whole other symbolic universe -- a language universe) with syntax (not just a recognition of "signs") is what many believe separates animals from humans...

387 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:34:17pm

re: #366 reine.de.tout

Oh, that has got to be a joke.

Did you see the picture and text on the sidebar...

"In fact, some of them observed specimens that they sketched, that may now be confidently identified with modern fossils that are known. Martin Luther observed, also accurately describing, the Scaphognathus's appearance; indeed a coin from his hometown (Mansfield) depicted a S. being hunted. "

I collect ancient coins. That's a scyphate (Byzantine cup coin) that someone did a little of their own engraving on, by hand.

388 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:34:24pm

re: #367 MandyManners

What you said.

Thank you, Ms. Manners.

389 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:02pm

re: #377 NemoParticularis

Whew. No knife. Always a good thing. Unless, of course, you are presented with a less-than-fork-tender steak.

No, just a response to well reasoned opinion. (Though, quite long)

390 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:06pm

re: #381 Marvo76

TMI.

391 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:07pm
392 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:14pm

What is thisworldcoming to!:0 ?Weet dreams to ya all!:)

393 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:17pm

re: #381 Marvo76

Thank you all for the debate, I need to wash my scuzzy butt, and hit the hay. I will try to remember the people I have had the pleasure of chatting with here. Good night all!

TMI, ok, night, enjoyed the banter. Come back.

394 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:18pm
395 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:36pm

re: #378 Charles

It's definitely not a joke. It's got that distinctive smell of obsessed kook all over it.

One reason I took a full look. Sun Tzu "know your enemy"

396 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:10pm

re: #345 jaunte

Gitmo link: [Link: www.s8int.com...]

It's frightening, isn't it, that these people have driver's licenses and can vote.

397 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:17pm

re: #388 NemoParticularis

You're welcome, Ms./Mr. Particularis.

399 jcw46  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:24pm

re: #322 ploome hineni

there comes a time, for every seasoned blogging aficionado

when only ad hominem is the correct response

when someone, has demonstrated over time and argument, a head so thick and resistant to understanding and a mind so void of reason, logic and intelligence

that a well slung ad hominem

is the only way to deal with the moron

I can understand the sentiment but it just seems juvenile (i.e. "you're a poopyfaced retard) and doesn't serve to advance/defend one's argument.

400 yehoshua  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:29pm

d Muslims stand united."re: #311 J.S.

Very well stated. Let us also add that history's most prolific murderers -- Nazis and Communists -- were devotees of Darwinism.

401 Opilio  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:30pm

re: #350 neocon hippie

It's come up every now and then that there seem to be quite a few lizards born in something like 1958-1963 or thereabouts. I'm one, having been born in 1959. We're somewhere on the Baby Boom/Gen X cusp.

A fine vintage.

402 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:03pm

re: #374 ploome hineni

...............................took me hours to find that link

:P

And he's still call you a "he".

403 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:06pm

re: #383 MandyManners

Stop it with the patronizing tone. Okay?

wasn't meaning to, he had mentioned a "touch'" which meant he had read it too. So I thought he might have the link at hand...

404 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:12pm

re: #365 ploome hineni

)!(

405 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:45pm
406 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:54pm

re: #378 Charles

It's definitely not a joke. It's got that distinctive smell of obsessed kook all over it.

You're right. I said "labor of love" in my comment, but "obsessed kook" nails it.

407 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:38:22pm

re: #401 Opilio

A fine vintage.

Not as fine as 1952. I like my age, growing old is good, well, it's better than the alternative.

408 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:38:42pm

re: #384 Charles

Here I though this was what really happened to the dinosaurs! I'm so disillusioned.

409 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:38:51pm

re: #403 Marvo76

wasn't meaning to, he had mentioned a "touch'" which meant he had read it too. So I thought he might have the link at hand...

It's the whole, not the particulars.

410 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:38:51pm

re: #366 reine.de.tout

Oh, that has got to be a joke.

I think they watched too much Johnny Quest as kids.

411 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:19pm

re: #386 J.S.

Clearly the human "language" sense has developed and diversified much more quickly than any other species...

412 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:21pm

re: #396 reine.de.tout
Coincidentally I was just saying that to my wife when your message popped up.

414 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:31pm

re: #375 DesertSage
Hi Sage! I don't quite understand. I believe in God and I believe in Evolution - just that God was the "spark" or whatever for it, and I don't believe that Genesis is completely literal and that makes me a "Creationist"?!
Are you sure about that?

415 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:32pm

re: #408 Sharmuta

I knew it before I clicked the link. Nice form!

416 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:34pm

re: #403 Marvo76

wasn't meaning to, he had mentioned a "touch'" which meant he had read it too. So I thought he might have the link at hand...

I said touche' I was giving you a point for your reference to giving apes human rights.

417 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:39pm

re: #407 Walter L. Newton

Amen Walter!weet dreams to ya!

418 jegjr  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:39pm

"The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united."

I'm sure there's a jew in there somewhere too! (before you lose your mind) Same God as Christians and all.

419 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:40:00pm

re: #412 jaunte

Coincidentally I was just saying that to my wife when your message popped up.

HA. Well, then, GMTA

420 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:40:09pm

re: #404 formercorpsman

)!(

Ok I dont know that one, is that buttocks?

421 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:40:15pm

re: #384 Charles

What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs? (DJ and Tracker John): John D. Morris, Ken Ham, Jonathan Chang.

The book that rewrites the fiction of secular dinosaur lore. Beautifully illustrated, highly imaginative. Adults will appreciate the scientific teaching of a biblical alternative.

Just the kind of "scientific teaching" a kid needs.

422 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:40:48pm

re: #420 Marvo76

?

423 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:41:23pm

re: #413 Charles

From the reviews: "Mike Oard is a scholar who has done much geologic field work. Having done field work with him, I can testify to the fact that he pays careful attention to detail, and is very skillful in separating fact from interpretation. In this work he goes outside the mental boxes of conventional uniformitarian geology, and shows the consequences, upon humans, of a single Ice Age."

424 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:41:33pm

re: #400 yehoshua

Bullshit! They were devotees of power.

425 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:41:38pm

re: #420 Marvo76

Ok I dont know that one, is that buttocks?

I thought you were off to wash your scuzzy parts.

426 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:41:55pm

re: #416 Walter L. Newton

I said touche' I was giving you a point for your reference to giving apes human rights.

that was what I was refering to, I dropped the "e" at the end. I had thought you read the same article.

427 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:42:36pm

re: #425 MandyManners

I thought you were off to wash your scuzzy parts.

folks keep talking to me! but I am loggin out now and will be back in a few....

428 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:42:59pm

re: #420 Marvo76

Yes, the slenderness of the derriere could be no other than ploome.

429 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:09pm

re: #383 MandyManners

Sad. I guess he never heard of (you should pardon the expression;) Google!

430 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:10pm

#385 Sharmuta writes: "No one here is denying that. Nor is anyone here arguing that it's some sort of a problem."

Many posts I have read - far too numerous to cite - indicate otherwise.

"What we are discussing is that ID is not science and doesn't belong in a science classroom, and that the people pushing ID are in bed with islamic creationists, which many of us (and you'd think all of us) have a problem with."

You state the obvious and then infer a false ulterior motive. Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote. My apologies in advance for any failure to properly elucidate my thoughts.

431 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:25pm

re: #427 Marvo76
Weet dreams to ya anyway! :)

432 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:26pm

re: #384 Charles

What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs? (DJ and Tracker John): John D. Morris, Ken Ham, Jonathan Chang.

Scroll down and read the reviews. They're a hoot!

433 Opilio  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:40pm

re: #410 Thanos

I think they watched too much Johnny Quest as kids.

Jonny looked a lot more like Roger "Race" Bannon than his purported father, Dr. Benton Quest. What's up with that?

434 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:51pm

re: #397 MandyManners

You're welcome, Ms./Mr. Particularis.

Nemo will suffice.

435 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:58pm
436 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:44:24pm

re: #426 Marvo76

that was what I was refering to, I dropped the "e" at the end. I had thought you read the same article.

I did read that article, over a week ago. You qere quoting something about the eventuality of giving animals rights the same as human and then you mentioned it's already happened, and referenced the Spain article.

I was simply saying "good point Marvo." Geeeessshhhh... I try to give you a compliment and you don't get it.

437 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:44:30pm

re: #400 yehoshua

Let me add that perfectly good science has been hijacked and twisted over and over again to make perfectly awful excuses for the most appalling cults.

Have you heard of the Church of Scientology for example?

438 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:44:34pm

Any Sports Medicine types out there?

439 jcw46  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:44:41pm

re: #355 ploome hineni

wrong

human are aware they will die

that is the difference

How has it been determined that no other animal knows it will die?
(serious question)

440 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:44:51pm

We're flinging poop, wash scuzzy parts.

Why shouldn't the apes have the same rights?

441 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:45:07pm

re: #438 kevinmumaw

What's up?

442 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:45:21pm

re: #405 ploome hineni

There's an interesting intro text on Linguistics (read Chapter 1) -- (Akmajian, Demers, and Harnish) -- which differentiates how animals communicate and how humans comminicate. They look at bee dances, dolphins, whales, chimps...humans use a far more complex system (that's covered in Chapter 9)...and no animal comes close.

443 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:45:29pm
444 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:45:35pm

re: #437 unclassifiable

Let me add that perfectly good science has been hijacked and twisted over and over again to make perfectly awful excuses for the most appalling cults.

Have you heard of the Church of Scientology for example?

There's "perfectly good science" in Scientology? Who knew?

445 DesertSage  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:45:35pm

re: #414 realwest

Hi Sage! I don't quite understand. I believe in God and I believe in Evolution - just that God was the "spark" or whatever for it, and I don't believe that Genesis is completely literal and that makes me a "Creationist"?!
Are you sure about that?

I believe in evolution also. And I believe in science.
But if I believe that God created the universe, then obviously I believe that he created all of the elements in the universe. Therefore, I believe that he created life. That would make me a "creationist", would it not?
Nobody here seems to differentiate between theological creationism and literal creationism, so I assume that they believe that they're all the same.

446 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:45:44pm

re: #437 unclassifiable

Let me add that perfectly good science has been hijacked and twisted over and over again to make perfectly awful excuses for the most appalling cults.

Have you heard of the Church of Scientology for example?

I have yet to see the science that it derived from.

Take one failing science fiction writer, add cheesy sci fi premise, mix well with Hollyweird, and bingo Scientology.

447 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:45:45pm

re: #433 Opilio

Jonny looked a lot more like Roger "Race" Bannon than his purported father, Dr. Benton Quest. What's up with that?

Always wondered that myself...

448 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:46:09pm

re: #433 Opilio
I thought Charles was Johnny Quest! :)

449 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:46:23pm

re: #439 jcw46

How has it been determined that no other animal knows it will die?
(serious question)

Cause they just stand there and wait for my bullet(arrow).

Just kidding, I know what you mean.

450 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:46:32pm

re: #439 jcw46

How has it been determined that no other animal knows it will die?
(serious question)

My cat knows it'll die if it claws the leather couch one more time. I've made it very clear.

451 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:46:36pm
452 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:47:08pm

re: #444 Cicero05

Did you skipped over the "hijacked and twisted" part?

453 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:47:08pm

I've obviously been leading a sheltered life, because I've never seen these aboslutely insane works of delusion before.

Are there really people who are using these books to teach their children?

454 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:47:23pm

re: #389 Mars Needs Neocons

No, just a response to well reasoned opinion. (Though, quite long)

And for that I do apologize, Mr. Mars. If brevity is truly the soul of wit, then my wits have left me - if only briefly.

455 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:47:25pm

re: #437 unclassifiable

Let me add that perfectly good science has been hijacked and twisted over and over again to make perfectly awful excuses for the most appalling cults.

Have you heard of the Church of Scientology for example?


You're going to hear from our lawyers in the morning. The name "Scientology" is copywrit, and you may not use it in references. And Xenu bless you.

456 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:47:32pm

re: #450 Cicero05
Poor kitty! Sarc/

457 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:48:01pm

re: #454 NemoParticularis

And for that I do apologize, Mr. Mars. If brevity is truly the soul of wit, then my wits have left me - if only briefly.

And with that I would disagree. nicely done.

458 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:48:22pm

re: #400 yehoshua
BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

459 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:48:33pm

re: #453 Charles

I've obviously been leading a sheltered life, because I've never seen these aboslutely insane works of delusion before.

Are there really people who are using these books to teach their children?


'Fraid so. They are marketed primarily to parents of young children, as are most of these dino-creationist materials.

460 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:48:34pm

re: #453 Charles

I've obviously been leading a sheltered life, because I've never seen these aboslutely insane works of delusion before.

Are there really people who are using these books to teach their children?


Yes.

You will also find them in Dr's offices, hospitals, some Sunday Schools, etc.

461 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:48:59pm

re: #441 formercorpsman

What's up?

I was running tonight and got a sharp pain in my calf. Bad enough I had to stop and walk back. The walk back was painful as well, but it really hurt when I push off. I can walk fine now in my house, but I still feel it, so running is out of the question for now. Being in the army, running is a way of life.

462 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:49:24pm

re: #453 Charles

I've obviously been leading a sheltered life, because I've never seen these aboslutely insane works of delusion before.

Are there really people who are using these books to teach their children?

Sadly, yes. The five-star reviews are a small sample of what's out there.

463 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:49:31pm

re: #400 yehoshua Well, ya know I don't really believe that. It's hard for me to take the "philosphy" of men like Hitler and Stalin with any degree of seriousness; their only real "philosophy" that I could ever detect was "I want ALL the power and I'll do anything and say anything to get it." Well, and of course that popular old favorite "The ends justify the means."

Of course the article which Charles started this thread with was written by Peter C Kjaergaard who is Associate Professor of the History of Ideas at the University of Aarhus, Denmark and the director of the Darwin in Denmark project, and as such I would be shocked if he felt the same way you do.

464 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:49:36pm

re: #408 Sharmuta

That's okay, not many people really know what happened to them...

465 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:49:44pm

re: #453 Charles

Are there really people who are using these books to teach their children?

That is a very frightening possibility.

466 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:49:57pm

re: #458 pingjockey
Hey , you made me look! :(

467 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:50:20pm

re: #446 Mars Needs Neocons

...hijacked and twisted...

What is it with the speed readers tonight?

468 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:50:39pm

re: #425 MandyManners

I thought you were off to wash your scuzzy parts.

roflmao,

469 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:50:48pm

My own theory is that dinosaurs were wiped by Buffalo Bill Cody and his Indian friends acting on the orders of President US Grant.
Grant, a known freemason, was an early convert to the Darwinist conspiracy and wished to destroy any contrary evidence before Smithsonian researchers got to it.

470 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:51:03pm

re: #430 NemoParticularis

#385 Sharmuta writes: "No one here is denying that. Nor is anyone here arguing that it's some sort of a problem."

Many posts I have read - far too numerous to cite - indicate otherwise.

"What we are discussing is that ID is not science and doesn't belong in a science classroom, and that the people pushing ID are in bed with islamic creationists, which many of us (and you'd think all of us) have a problem with."

You state the obvious and then infer a false ulterior motive. Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote. My apologies in advance for any failure to properly elucidate my thoughts.

1) if they're so numerous, then you should have no problem citing one.

2) I inferred nothing upon you, because you did state yourself well, other than to somehow think anyone here is denying the role that religious men have played in the history of scientific advancements. No one has. Other than that, I thought you put up a decent post. Gee- maybe I was talking about other people who continue to not grasp this issue- did that occur to you?

471 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:51:06pm

re: #455 Walter L. Newton

Oh please sue me so we can kill this thing in court once and for all.

472 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:51:11pm
473 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:51:33pm

re: #452 unclassifiable

Did you skipped over the "hijacked and twisted" part?

It would take a helluva lot of hijacking and twisting to get from "perfectly good science" to Xenu and the Thetans.

474 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:52:04pm

re: #436 Walter L. Newton

I did read that article, over a week ago. You qere quoting something about the eventuality of giving animals rights the same as human and then you mentioned it's already happened, and referenced the Spain article.

I was simply saying "good point Marvo." Geeeessshhhh... I try to give you a compliment and you don't get it.

I understood that, Mandy didn't LOL My son has taken over the bathroom so I have to wait.

475 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:52:04pm

re: #469 shiplord kirel
HEh! :0

476 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:52:21pm
477 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:52:35pm

Howdy.

1) Regarding the "New Yorker" cover; I'm wondering if it's a kind of false flag operation. Get everyone hot and bothered about how UNFAIR and RACIST our terrible country is, in its treatment of poor Barry... so of course if you don't vote for him, you'll be an unfair racist, too.

2) Bad news: A sorta kinda feather in the cap of Chavez and his socialist utopia, as Miss Venezuela wins Miss Universe. On the other hand: She kinda deserved it. Yowza.

478 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:52:53pm

re: #469 shiplord kirel

You have figured it out. That's it. It's a settled fact.

479 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:52:54pm

re: #469 shiplord kirel

My own theory is that dinosaurs were wiped by Buffalo Bill Cody and his Indian friends acting on the orders of President US Grant.
Grant, a known freemason, was an early convert to the Darwinist conspiracy and wished to destroy any contrary evidence before Smithsonian researchers got to it.

Nope, no way. I can see where Bills grave is, right here, from my apartment window, and I've been up there (Lookout Mountain), ain't no dino bones buried with him.

And he missed a mess of them about 4 miles from here, Dinosaur Ridge, Morrison, Co.

Walter in Golden, Co.

480 Opilio  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:53:01pm

re: #448 beachkatie

I thought Charles was Johnny Quest! :)

Actually, Jonny grew up to be Otter in Animal House.

481 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:53:08pm

re: #437 unclassifiable

That reminds me. There may be hope for Europe after all...

/takes understanding of many internet memes/jokes to truly comprehend, but it's there

482 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:53:18pm

re: #466 beachkatie
Well, I've had it with nazis+communists=Darwin BS.

483 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:53:22pm

re: #477 Occasional Reader

I thought Hugo was Miss Venezuela.

484 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:53:26pm

re: #469 shiplord kirel

My own theory is that dinosaurs were wiped by Buffalo Bill Cody and his Indian friends acting on the orders of President US Grant.
Grant, a known freemason, was an early convert to the Darwinist conspiracy and wished to destroy any contrary evidence before Smithsonian researchers got to it.

Now you've gone and spilled the beans. Peek out of your window. Have the black SUVs pulled up yet?

485 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:53:31pm

re: #471 unclassifiable

Oh please sue me so we can kill this thing in court once and for all.

You're clear. LOL

486 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:53:58pm

re: #453 Charles

I have no idea, because I have no children. I will note, however, that most textbooks I've seen are very bad; frankly, you would be better off using a textbook from the 1920's for American history than the modern ones.

Richard Feynman had a fit over the science textbooks I was subjected to in elementary school - the tag phrase from the 4th grade books was, "Energy makes it go!" - because he felt they didn't teach the process of science, and did a horrible job with the whole idea of transfer of energy, which was the unifying premise of the book.

487 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:54:13pm

re: #477 Occasional Reader

2) Bad news: A sorta kinda feather in the cap of Chavez and his socialist utopia, as Miss Venezuela wins Miss Universe. On the other hand: She kinda deserved it. Yowza.

Apparently, in addition to oil, Venezuela has very large deposits of silicon.

488 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:54:15pm

With the comparison of Darwin to Hitler, Evolution led to the Holocaust, and the other absurdities, when will there be a comparison be made between Hitler's genocidal policies and his virulent anti-smoking?

489 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:54:42pm

[musical comedy interlude]

The Man Song.

490 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:54:48pm

re: #457 Mars Needs Neocons

And with that I would disagree. nicely done.

In the blogosphere there is no higher praise. As much as I would happily while away the time in delightful persiflage, I must go a bed, as the hour is late and I am weary.

Good evening to you, sir.

491 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:55:04pm

re: #483 kevinmumaw

I thought Hugo was Miss Venezuela.

He will be if Jesse Jackson gets hold of him.

492 wolfie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:55:19pm

re: #318 nyc redneck

that is exactly what the rop'ers are up to. they could give a shite abt. any christian's take on creationism. this is a strategic move to cause discord.
the secular world is hardly an enemy to christians.
they should not be throwing in w/ 7th century barbarians.
this is a bad move.

There are profound differences between the Christian and Islamic take on divine creation, BTW. The Christian view, which follows Judaism, has 6 clear progressive stages w/ God resting on the seventh "day." Once God has finished the creative work, he respects the freedom of nature and of each creative being to express its potential. Man is explicitly given the freedom to express him true nature in a voluntary relation to his Maker.

The Koran is a lot fuzzier (and self-contradictory) on the time-frame, but more importantly, does not have a final day when God rests. In medieval Islamic theology (which continues to be mainstream today), the very notion that God would need rest or get tired is mightily debunked. God's creative action is conceived as on-going every second of every day. God creates all things and all of their relations out of nothing on a perpetual basis. Nothing therefore has a nature of its own. Everything is subjected to the inscrutable will of Allah's combining and disbanding.

Freedom...vs...fatalism.

493 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:55:20pm

re: #487 Charles

Apparently, in addition to oil, Venezuela has very large deposits of silicon.

Thank you. That was my thought but I figured I would get razzed about it.

494 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:55:26pm

re: #487 Charles

ZING!

495 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:55:43pm

re: #479 Walter L. Newton

Nope, no way. I can see where Bills grave is, right here, from my apartment window, and I've been up there (Lookout Mountain), ain't no dino bones buried with him.

Of course not, they wouldn't be that careless with evidence.

And he missed a mess of them about 4 miles from here, Dinosaur Ridge, Morrison, Co.

Walter in Golden, Co.

No, he didn't miss. That's why they are just bones and not a living herd of dinos.

496 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:55:52pm

re: #487 Charles

Apparently, in addition to oil, Venezuela has very large deposits of silicon.

Now that's evolution.

Been there, done that (In my dreams).

497 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:56:01pm

re: #487 Charles

Apparently, in addition to oil, Venezuela has very large deposits of silicon.

1) You really think she looks like a computer scientist, eh?

2) And why are you bashing my religion (etc.)

498 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:56:37pm

re: #472 ploome hineni

and yet humans have more divorces and conflicts because of MISCOMMUNICATION

than animals do

I do not agree with your premise

/whatever it is

My dogs have never indicated a wish to leave me, anyway!

499 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:57:26pm

re: #497 Occasional Reader

Oh yeah? Well, take that.

500 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:57:37pm

re: #495 shiplord kirel

No, he didn't miss. That's why they are just bones and not a living herd of dinos.

Well, we have BB Days coming up, July 23-27, I'll ask around.

501 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:57:54pm

(For ages 9-12.)

502 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:58:02pm

re: #477 Occasional Reader Hey O.R. - I most certainly agree with your YOWZA in 2) and think your 1) might very well be the reason McCain was so quick to disown that New Yorker Cover.

503 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:58:11pm

re: #473 Cicero05

It doesn't have to be Scientific theory. It can just be the words (like the "Tech") or the approach (the appearance of a concise methodology and procedure).

It works in Hollyweird because of ignorance. Not a lot of actors with a technical or scientific background. Their concept of science is as relevant as the gizmos in a Frankenstein movie (those tesla coils and Van De Graff generators really can reanimate dead tissue).

504 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:58:17pm

re: #472 ploome hineni

and yet humans have more divorces and conflicts because of MISCOMMUNICATION

than animals do

Can't argue with that. I'm not personally aware of any animal divorces whatsoever.

505 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:58:29pm

re: #453 Charles

In Alberta, we have a world reknown natural history museum -- the Royal Tyrell in Drumheller. Their mandate is "to collect, conserve, research and interpret palaeontological history with special reference to Alberta’s fossil heritage." But now, it seems, they've got competition....yes, from Creationists...who want to put on exhibits of dinosaurs alongside humans...

506 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:58:33pm

re: #434 NemoParticularis

Nemo will suffice.

Was if fun to be found?

507 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:58:39pm

re: #501 Charles

(For ages 9-12.)

You know what Cardinal Spellman said.

508 jcw46  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:59:08pm

re: #435 ploome hineni

I referred to ad hominem attacks as juvenile in the sense of the age at which it is first learned and as you suggest; because we learn then it is so satisfying. :>

509 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:59:09pm

re: #461 kevinmumaw

Kevin, I am going to say you fall somewhere in the mid 30's to early 40's age range.

If the pain is mid-calf, that would be at the junction of the tendon, and the muscle.

Closer the ankle, is more concerning. Couple of things up front.

Usually if you follow with your finger up the Achille's, you may feel a divot along the course.

As well, pushing your foot down on the gas (under your power) would also indicate the construct of the tendon is in tact.

Obviously, I am going to default, and claim you can't tell for sure without having hands on you, but your subjective history is one of the most common themes patients present with considering your activity.

Either way, Do the RICE thing, put some food in your stomach, you can take up to 4 OTC Ibuprofins at least an hour before laying down, and get it checked in the A.M.

510 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:59:22pm

re: #499 Charles

Oh yeah? Well, take that.

You gave us an Amazon.com link; I gave us a "Miss Amazonas" link. I WIN!

511 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:59:42pm

The New Yorker cover is obviously a moonbat parody of what they think are right-wing ideas about the messiah....

But they got so meta with it, they ended up wrapping around and making themselves look stupid.

512 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:59:56pm

re: #446 Mars Needs Neocons

I have yet to see the science that it derived from.

Take one failing science fiction writer, add cheesy sci fi premise, mix well with Hollyweird, and bingo Scientology.

Don't forget the dash of Catholic hatred.

513 Opilio  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:00:41pm

re: #477 Occasional Reader

Howdy.

2) Bad news: A sorta kinda feather in the cap of Chavez and his socialist utopia, as Miss Venezuela wins Miss Universe. On the other hand: She kinda deserved it. Yowza.

The ladies of Venezuela have won that title 5 times during the last 30 years. I'm pretty sure it's unrelated to Hugo.

514 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:01:02pm

re: #512 CyanSnowHawk

Hey , i'm Catholic!:o

515 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:01:12pm
516 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:01:15pm

re: #499 Charles

Do you know, my mom actually took my dinosaur books away when I was about 4? I had too many nightmares about Alosaurus.

517 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:01:32pm

re: #487 Charles Ah geez Charles - you know I hate to disagree with you, but I truly don't think silicon was involved at all with her!

518 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:01:58pm

re: #502 realwest

1) might very well be the reason McCain was so quick to disown that New Yorker Cover.

I am reminded of the immortal words of wisdom of Admiral Ackbar.

519 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:02:06pm
520 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:02:19pm

re: #515 ploome hineni

Velokofsky has a theory 2 planets collided, and the resulting dust storm obscured the sun, and vegetation died

etc

Yes, I read all his stuff when I was a teen. Another fruitcake.

521 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:02:37pm

re: #516 Dianna
A+ for mom!:)

522 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:02:37pm

re: #453 Charles

Are there really people who are using these books to teach their children?

Yes, Dinosaurs of Eden autographed by Ken Ham* was sincerely given to me by a friend, for the benefit of my daughters.

* a leading proponent of creationism in Australia, and founder of the Creationist Museum in Kentucky

523 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:03:02pm

re: #513 Opilio

The ladies of Venezuela have won that title 5 times during the last 30 years. I'm pretty sure it's unrelated to Hugo.

It's got nothing at all to do with Hugo, but nevertheless he'll milk it... er, let me rephrase that...

524 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:03:02pm

re: #510 Occasional Reader

You gave us an Amazon.com link; I gave us a "Miss Amazonas" link. I WIN!

*looks down* No- I think I win.

525 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:03:21pm

re: #455 Walter L. Newton

You're going to hear from our lawyers in the morning. The name "Scientology" is copywrit, and you may not use it in references. And Xenu bless you.

Oh man, Lucy Lawless was such a babe in that leather armor/cheerleader outfit.

526 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:03:28pm
527 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:03:32pm

re: #517 realwest

Ah geez Charles - you know I hate to disagree with you, but I truly don't think silicon was involved at all with her!

I had those TWO thoughts myself when I saw the picture.

528 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:03:42pm
re: #130 coquimbojoe
re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Ok, linky please. You're in my territory now. Light-sabre's drawn.

I think the links are in Matrvo's ass.

Don't worry, I bet a lightsaber can get in there.  Unless there's a pocket of methane, then we're all doomed.

}:)     [Whole new meaning to 'fact-check your ass'.]

529 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:03:58pm

Hey Charles, did you wind up getting the iPhone 3G? (I may well be the only poster not apprised of this, but what the hell)

530 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:04:17pm

Silicon and hair/skin coloring chemicals are the STEROIDS of the Miss Universe event.

531 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:04:27pm

re: #515 ploome hineni

Velikovsky's more fun than you should be allowed to have while reading something that's supposedly science. I was reading it on the train a few years back, and my giggles had my fellow passengers worried.

532 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:04:32pm

re: #253 Charles

Humans. Riding dinosaurs.


How else would they get to Sunday School?
/Duh

533 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:04:33pm

re: #526 ploome hineni

hey!:(

534 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:04:44pm
535 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:04:53pm

re: #525 CyanSnowHawk

Oh man, Lucy Lawless was such a babe in that leather armor/cheerleader outfit.

Too butch. NEXT!

536 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:05:07pm

Imprisoned creationist superstar Kent Hovind is a veritable zoo of whacky ideas. In particular he was an early proponent of 9-11 trooferism:

"

......and teaches that the US government is conspiring to suppress a cure for cancer. On his radio program he has said that the U.S. government was behind the 9/11 attacks and that a "lot of folks were told not to come to work." He also believes the Oklahoma City bombing was carried out by the government. "Did you know the Federal Government blew up their own building to blame it on the militias and to get rid of some people that weren't cooperating with the system?"

There's more:

Regarding UFOs Hovind recommends books by conspiracy theorists who believe "some UFO’s are U.S. Government experiments with electrogravitic propulsion as opposed to jet propulsion, while others are Satanic apparitions"

You just knew UFOs would come into it somewhere, didn't you?

537 yehoshua  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:05:15pm

re: #488 FurryOldGuyJeans

The problem is that Mein Kampf, Hitler's blueprint for genocide, is filled with references to Darwin.

538 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:05:19pm

re: #525 CyanSnowHawk

Oh man, Lucy Lawless was such a babe in that leather armor/cheerleader outfit.

That was Xena. Zenu is the chief honcho in Scientology.

539 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:05:29pm

re: #526 ploome hineni

#477 Occasional Reader

they look like tall 11 yr olds, with tits

Elementary schools in your neck of the woods must be... different... from the ones I'm aware of.

540 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:05:29pm

re: #519 ploome hineni

Oh, yeah.

5 a.m. (by her clock), and the black mutt starts her whining - she doesn't care if the alarm has gone off or not!

541 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:05:51pm

re: #400 yehoshua

d Muslims stand united."

Very well stated. Let us also add that history's most prolific murderers -- Nazis and Communists -- were devotees of Darwinism.

I've heard that they also liked ice cream, and possibly also sex.

542 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:05:54pm

re: #532 Killgore Trout
Be nice. Or at least try. :) Did you go look at the funnies at that link? Serious disconnect going on there.

543 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:05:56pm

re: #517 realwest

Ah geez Charles - you know I hate to disagree with you, but I truly don't think silicon was involved at all with her!

Me neither.

544 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:06:13pm

re: #509 formercorpsman

Thanks, I'm 38. I had this happen once before last winter, it went away and I forgot about it. I've also have pins in my foot (same leg) from a UH-60 accident in 2002. I thought I might have been cramping, but who knows? Thanks again.

545 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:06:19pm
546 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:07:10pm

re: #532 Killgore Trout

I like that!

547 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:07:37pm

re: #501 Charles

(For ages 9-12.)

From the excerpt:

Did you ever dream that you were hunting dinosaurs? Or, that you found a valley full of all kinds of strange creatures, such as flying lizards and giant beavers?

I ain't touching that.

548 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:07:38pm

re: #535 Occasional Reader

You're kidding, right?

549 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:07:38pm

re: #546 Dianna

Old Joke.
/stolen.

550 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:07:41pm

re: #517 realwest

Ah geez Charles - you know I hate to disagree with you, but I truly don't think silicon was involved at all with her!

He's referring to the silicon chip inside her head (pace, Bob Geldof).

Because she's a future Esposa de Stepford.

551 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:07:43pm

re: #476 ploome hineni

O come on -- gotta separate Chimsky the Linguist from Chimsky the jerk...(politically the guy's off his rocker -- but Linguistically, heck, he's a genius...he should have stuck with linguistics...)

552 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:07:44pm

There is no mention of Darwin or his theory in Mein Kampf.

553 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:08:06pm
554 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:08:07pm

Great. Another boob thread.

555 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:08:20pm

re: #547 MandyManners

I ain't touching that.

Sometimes a beaver is just a beaver.

556 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:08:26pm

re: #538 Walter L. Newton

re: #545 ploome hineni
Some of us make do with what we have!:)

557 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:08:40pm

re: #548 Dianna

You're kidding, right?

Er, no. I mean, Lawless is very good looking, but I also think she's awfully butch. There's a reason she's a lesbian icon.

558 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:08:41pm

re: #445 DesertSage
"Nobody here seems to differentiate between theological creationism and literal creationism, so I assume that they believe that they're all the same."
Huh. Never thought of it that way, but if you do believe in the Judeo-Christian God, you do sorta have to believe that He created everything, although not necessariy in any literal reading of the Old or New Testament.
But it may be that IDer's do think that the Bible is spot on for teaching in the Public Schools, in the literal sense, although that isn't the sense that I've gotten from the comments here.
My sense of the comments here (and by here I mean all of the generally classifiable "ID Threads")
is that only evolution should be taught in Science classes, and no mention should be made of how it all started.

559 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:08:49pm
560 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:09:01pm

re: #554 Sharmuta

Great. Another boob thread.

Yeah, pretend like your disappointed.

561 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:09:15pm

re: #554 Sharmuta

Great. Another boob thread.

I didn't see Infidelia posting on this thread.

562 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:09:25pm

re: #552 jaunte

He was mostly influenced by Nietzsche.

563 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:09:41pm

re: #560 kevinmumaw

Actually- I am.

564 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:09:48pm

re: #544 kevinmumaw

No problem.

You are the model.

Actually, the most common description is guys our age going out to participate in the pick-up game of hoops, and going for a jump-shot, feeling the immediate pain, and thinking someone shot or kicked them in that area.

I suspect your is probably mid-calf from your description, & 9 times out of 10, it is a conservative mgmt, therapy type of things.

Given that you had something similar before, I would still suggest you have someone give the all clear.

565 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:09:59pm

re: #558 realwest
Ding Ding ! YOu are so right!:)Hey Real West!

566 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:10:04pm

re: #537 yehoshua
IIRC, I read that book in high school and it was the Jooooz responsible for all the worlds ills and I don't remember Darwin at all. Could be wrong though.

567 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:10:06pm

re: #499 Charles

Oh yeah? Well, take that.

Gotta love this part of the Amazon page:

Tags Customers Associate with This Product ( What's this?)
Click on a tag to find related items, discussions, and people.
absolute rubbish (1)
creationism (1)
fiction (1)
mythology (1)

568 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:10:11pm
569 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:10:19pm

re: #556 beachkatie

re: #545 ploome hineni
Some of us make do with what we have!:)

Actually, she's not my kind of woman. I like a much more weight, really, so sue me.

570 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:10:23pm

re: #552 jaunte

Thank you. I've gone through the index to Mein Kampf, and never found a single reference to Darwin.

571 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:10:36pm

re: #543 Racer X

Me neither.

Let's just say -- 5% body fat. But massive Yahyas. What's wrong with this picture?

572 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:10:49pm

re: #547 MandyManners

I ain't touching that.

Valley of the Beavers... sounds promising, let's greenlight it.

573 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:11:14pm

re: #569 Walter L. Newton

Weetdreams ! :)

574 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:11:20pm

From DU:

61. Very lame indeed....

There are people however who like the same ol' same ol', who think shrub is a swell fella who is doin' a heck of a job.

When it comes time to debate, Obama is going to hand McCain his ass. The delay in response to some of McSames stupid, I think, is the Obama campaign saving the real beat down for the debates. they are staying focused on the real issues and stocking up on the McSame ammunition. Which they will unload during the debates.

Apparently they are unaware that there are no teleprompters at the debates.

575 JeremyR  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:11:32pm

re: #319 MandyManners

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

Hate to tell you Mandy, he is telling the truth. My HS science teacher was a creationinst and loved to harp on the point that they had been debunked. That was in the mid 70's.
And as for his math, my wife is 50 (51 at the end of the month) Graduated in 1975 (30+3 years ago) and attended grade school in the 60's (1963 to 1969).

576 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:11:49pm

Sir Mixalot: 12:16

577 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:11:59pm

re: #557 Occasional Reader

Whatever.

I always thought she was really beautiful, and she was very gracious on the occasion I met her - though she made me feel like a total shrimp, because she was wearing heels and I'm not terribly big.

578 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:12:17pm
579 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:12:18pm

re: #573 beachkatie

Weetdreams ! :)

You've been doing that a lot tonight. Are you wishing me "weet dreams" or are you keeping count of your "weet dreams?"

580 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:12:20pm

It can be lunchtiem no. Brb.

581 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:12:21pm

re: #571 Charles

Let's just say -- 5% body fat. But massive Yahyas. What's wrong with this picture?

Certainly not common, but not impossible.

582 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:12:25pm

re: #514 beachkatie

Hey , i'm Catholic!:o

So was I. So was my Sister when that cult sunk it's hooks into her. They don't like Catholicism, not one bit. Never have, and dear leader L.Ron had a passionate dislike for them.

On a side note, after they nearly bankrupted her, my Sister managed to break away from them, and also managed to recover much of her lost money. With help from my Dad, who my Mom described as being the most frightening person she had ever seen when he was calmly telling them just what would happen if they failed to make good. He apparently was well connected with then CA Gov. Pete Wilson, through his connections to him as a San Diego businessman some years earlier.

583 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:12:50pm

re: #571 Charles

Let's just say -- 5% body fat. But massive Yahyas. What's wrong with this picture?

Massive, rock-hard yahyas.

584 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:12:58pm

re: #561 Walter L. Newton

Just as well. She was terribly rude.

585 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:13:12pm

re: #527 Walter L. Newton What a coincidence - I had the same two thoughts, though they don't exactly match, which was part of the reason for my observation to Charles!

586 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:13:20pm

re: #571 Charles

Nothing is wrong with the picture.

What was the topic?

587 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:13:44pm

re: #437 unclassifiable

Let me add that perfectly good science has been hijacked and twisted over and over again to make perfectly awful excuses for the most appalling cults.

Have you heard of the Church of Scientology for example?

There is nothing remotely science-related in scientology, except for the fact that their so-called "e-meters" use electricity. L Ron "Pathological Liar" Hubbard needed a way to distinguish his scam from all the others, so he promoted his money-making scheme as a technical system of spiritual self-help, rather than as a gradual progression of spiritual feeling. It was a marketing maneuver, and it worked well on dumb and/or vulnerable people with more dollars than sense, as these things are designed to do.

588 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:13:53pm

re: #577 Dianna

Whatever.

Sheesh. What, is she her sister or something? De gustibus non est disputandum.

589 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:13:54pm

re: #576 Killgore Trout

Heh! :0

590 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:13:59pm
591 Opilio  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:14:02pm

re: #490 NemoParticularis

In the blogosphere there is no higher praise. As much as I would happily while away the time in delightful persiflage, I must go a bed, as the hour is late and I am weary.

Good evening to you, sir.

per·si·flage \'per-si-fläzh\ noun <Fr., from persifler to banter, from per- thoroughly + siffler to whistle, hiss>: frivolous bantering talk : light raillery

I learned a new word tonight.

592 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:14:09pm

re: #571 Charles

Let's just say -- 5% body fat. But massive Yahyas. What's wrong with this picture?

You're ruining it!

LOL!

Actually they don't look so massive to me.

She is real easy on the eyes.

593 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:14:20pm

re: #582 CyanSnowHawk

So was I. So was my Sister when that cult sunk it's hooks into her. They don't like Catholicism, not one bit. Never have, and dear leader L.Ron had a passionate dislike for them.

On a side note, after they nearly bankrupted her, my Sister managed to break away from them, and also managed to recover much of her lost money. With help from my Dad, who my Mom described as being the most frightening person she had ever seen when he was calmly telling them just what would happen if they failed to make good. He apparently was well connected with then CA Gov. Pete Wilson, through his connections to him as a San Diego businessman some years earlier.

Best "anti-scientology" web site on the Internet, IMHO.

[Link: www.xenu.net...]

Walter in Golden, Co.

594 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:14:26pm

re: #538 Walter L. Newton

That was Xena. Zenu is the chief honcho in Scientology.

Thought I would give intentional misunderstanding a try. BTW, is there a word for that besides Democrat?

595 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:14:27pm

re: #535 Occasional Reader

Too butch. NEXT!

Chicken.

596 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:14:29pm

re: #589 beachkatie

'Even white boys got to shout!"

597 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:14:40pm

re: #579 Walter L. Newton

HEY! Thats my coin!:)

598 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:14:52pm

re: #574 kevinmumaw

Man Kev that sure is reading a lot into infinite variations of hope and change.

599 JeremyR  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:15:27pm

re: #438 kevinmumaw

Any Sports Medicine types out there?

If not, a vet will do, they work with animals all day.

600 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:15:40pm

re: #584 Dianna
What:0?

601 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:16:15pm

re: #572 Occasional Reader

Valley of the Beavers... sounds promising, let's greenlight it.

I don't see Scorsese or even Di Palma.

602 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:16:24pm

re: #571 Charles
"massive Yahyas" ? ROTFL! First of all they are only "massive" in relation to the rest of her body.
Secondly "Yahyas"? That must be a sorta jazzy type term there!

603 DesertSage  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:16:30pm

re: #558 realwest

My sense of the comments here (and by here I mean all of the generally classifiable "ID Threads")
is that only evolution should be taught in Science classes, and no mention should be made of how it all started.

I agree. Where it all got started should be a subject for a philosophy class. ID has nothing to do with theological creation. A theological creationist is a valid point of view, but is still a creationist. Therefore creationism is a legitimate viewpoint....ID isn't. They should be separated....unless somebody has a problem with that?

604 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:16:44pm

re: #555 Cicero05

Sometimes a beaver is just a beaver.

Ummm...okay.

605 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:16:51pm

One other thing that might or might not be important.

Note the ties here to the Russian Orthodox church. The DI site and folks have ties there as well, and carry a Russia blog at their site.

One of their big backers is Rusdoony and Chalcedon, note that the Rushdoony's are Armenian origin, and were originally Orthodox and /or Calvinists (I've seen both stated.)

Council of Chalcedon

606 Carridine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:16:53pm

re: #98 Marvo76

Why else would they be concentrated in certain areas and massed as if swept up together in a large mudflow?


Why, indeed?

Possibly because one of those infrequent meteor collisions, of which at least 6 have been documented over the last 2 billion years of Earth's existence, one of them hit, killed a few million animals over there, and pushed massive amounts of hot air up into the stratosphere, thereby displacing MASSIVE AMOUNTS of FRIGID AIR down onto the surface of the earth, at hurricane speeds, near-instantaneously FREEZING the animals and STACKING THEM tens of meters deep where they accumulated, blown by the winds.

This is not my theory, and if I knew what to call it I'd Google a link for you, but it IS a valid explanation for the factual discovery of large concentrations of remains, swept together not by flood of water but by flood of air...

607 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:17:02pm

re: #597 beachkatie

HEY! Thats my coin!:)

Translation?

608 razorbacker  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:17:09pm

re: #253 Charles

OK. I am now officially flabbergasted.

Humans. Riding dinosaurs.

Bwa. Bwa ha. Bwa hahahhaha.

Sorry. I just can't help myself.

Oh yeah? Think it through. Dinosaurs couldn't have riden humans, they'd have squished them.

And I strongly doubt that even the smartest dinosaur could have made the correct size saddle. Thumbs, you know.

609 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:17:28pm

re: #596 Killgore Trout

You know, that song is past the 15 year mark, and the kids half that age know it by heart.

Not all the lyrics are for them, but it is funny to hear them sing it.

610 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:17:32pm

re: #575 JeremyR

Hate to tell you Mandy, he is telling the truth. My HS science teacher was a creationinst and loved to harp on the point that they had been debunked. That was in the mid 70's.
And as for his math, my wife is 50 (51 at the end of the month) Graduated in 1975 (30+3 years ago) and attended grade school in the 60's (1963 to 1969).

He was talking about his GRADE SCHOOL texts. Not his HS texts.

611 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:18:03pm
612 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:18:10pm

re: #607 Walter L. Newton
Don't be a asshat!

613 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:18:12pm

re: #606 Carridine

Why, indeed?

Possibly because one of those infrequent meteor collisions, of which at least 6 have been documented over the last 2 billion years of Earth's existence, one of them hit, killed a few million animals over there, and pushed massive amounts of hot air up into the stratosphere, thereby displacing MASSIVE AMOUNTS of FRIGID AIR down onto the surface of the earth, at hurricane speeds, near-instantaneously FREEZING the animals and STACKING THEM tens of meters deep where they accumulated, blown by the winds.

This is not my theory, and if I knew what to call it I'd Google a link for you, but it IS a valid explanation for the factual discovery of large concentrations of remains, swept together not by flood of water but by flood of air...

I pointed this out to him earlier. Google Chicxulub.

614 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:18:19pm

re: #571 Charles

Let's just say -- 5% body fat. But massive Yahyas. What's wrong with this picture?

Fauxtography. Will this issue get its own thread? I would like to see how we could spin it politically, just for fun.

"Venezuela's Top Model Faked Under Orders From Chavez?"

615 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:18:49pm

re: #590 ploome hineni

rofl

All I'm saying is the women might be disappointed, but the men? Nyetsky. I'm beyond the age of being thrilled by a photograph of a pretty woman, medically enhanced or not, but still, yowza.

616 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:18:51pm

re: #601 MandyManners

I don't see Scorsese or even Di Palma.

You beavers talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talking... you beavers talkin' to me?

617 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:19:34pm

re: #536 shiplord kirel

Imprisoned creationist superstar Kent Hovind is a veritable zoo of whacky ideas. In particular he was an early proponent of 9-11 trooferism:

"


You just knew UFOs would come into it somewhere, didn't you?

There's a streak of Birchers among the YEC crowd, so it's not surprising.

618 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:19:35pm

re: #565 beachkatie Well thanks {beachkatie} I thought I was right about that.

619 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:19:36pm

re: #609 formercorpsman

It's a classic.

620 JeremyR  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:19:40pm

re: #488 FurryOldGuyJeans

With the comparison of Darwin to Hitler, Evolution led to the Holocaust, and the other absurdities, when will there be a comparison be made between Hitler's genocidal policies and his virulent anti-smoking?

If there is no GOD, then moral law is what ever we want to make of it if we are strong enough to carry it through. Rule of the strongest. If that were to be the case. morality is meaningless. We can, as Hitler attempted, do as we please if we can carry the deed to completion.

621 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:19:41pm

re: #559 ploome hineni

Really? What makes you think his scholarship sucked?

622 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:19:51pm

re: #612 beachkatie

Don't be a asshat!

I thought I was being funny. And I don't know what the term "that's my coin" means. Give me a break, I'm 55.

623 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:21:10pm

re: #605 Thanos

One other thing that might or might not be important.

Note the ties here to the Russian Orthodox church. The DI site and folks have ties there as well, and carry a Russia blog at their site.

One of their big backers is Rusdoony and Chalcedon, note that the Rushdoony's are Armenian origin, and were originally Orthodox and /or Calvinists (I've seen both stated.)

Council of Chalcedon

The Discovery Institute's Russia blog:

[Link: www.russiablog.org...]

624 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:21:56pm

re: #619 Killgore Trout

I DJ for a hobby.

Drunk bride's maids are the best for it.

625 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:21:59pm

re: #603 DesertSage

I agree. Where it all got started should be a subject for a philosophy class. ID has nothing to do with theological creation. A theological creationist is a valid point of view, but is still a creationist. Therefore creationism is a legitimate viewpoint....ID isn't. They should be separated....unless somebody has a problem with that?

Are you willing to have Islamic creationism taught in philosophy classes?

626 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:22:14pm

re: #575 JeremyR Hey Jeremey, what kind of "a creationinst" was he (see my #558

627 gman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:22:29pm

Taner Edis, a professor of physics at Truman State University, has written quite a few papers on the ties between Islamic Creationism and Western Creationism. Here is an excerpt from Islamic Creationism in Turkey:

Sometime in the mid 1980s, the Turkish Minister of Education, Mr. Vehbi Dinçerler [. . .] placed a call to ICR. [. . .] he wanted to eliminate the secular-based, evolution-only teaching dominant in their schools and replace it with a curriculum teaching the two models[.] As a result, several ICR books which dealt with the scientific (not Biblical) evidence for creation were translated into Turkish and distributed to all Turkey's public school teachers.

an excerpt from The Rise of Islamic Creationism:

But creationism came into its own in the mid 1980’s, when religious conservatives gained control of the Turkish Ministry of Education. Conservative Muslims thought evolutionary ideas were morally corrosive, yet they found themselves in an environment where science commanded significant cognitive authority. So they needed a way to suggest that evolution was a scientifically dubious idea, a fraud. They found the resources they needed in Protestant “scientific creationism,” and invoked Christian creationists just as the secularists tended to rely on Western scientific authorities. While the Muslims downplayed some features of Protestant creationism such as a young earth and flood geology, they adopted the bulk of the anti-evolutionary debating points developed by their Christian counterparts. Indeed, the Education Ministry had many instances of “scientific creationist” literature officially translated and made available to high schools and teachers.

628 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:22:39pm

re: #618 realwestBe sweet real west!Your a sweety to me! Luv ya mean it!

629 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:22:41pm

re: #611 ploome hineni

there seems to be a problem with the left implant

Yep.

Could've used a more intelligent design.

630 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:22:51pm

Way O.T. (I need to break out of this Creationist/Evolution argument)
......so we were walking through Sam's Club and my girlfriend starts laughing and says "Look at that book."

Cue The Twilight Zone theme..................

631 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:22:59pm

re: #619 Killgore Trout

It's a classic.

He definitely deserved that knighthood.

632 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:23:08pm

re: #622 Walter L. Newton

I'm 39, and I don't either, but I'm curious.

Fess up beach.

633 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:23:17pm

re: #620 JeremyR

If there is no GOD, then moral law is what ever we want to make of it if we are strong enough to carry it through. Rule of the strongest. If that were to be the case. morality is meaningless. We can, as Hitler attempted, do as we please if we can carry the deed to completion.

This might come as a shock to you, but the invalidity of one particular Mesopotamian story as an explanation for the creation of the universe does not mean that there is no G-d.

634 opnion  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:23:26pm

re: #616 Cicero05

You beavers talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talking... you beavers talkin' to me?


Vagina Monologues?

635 wolfie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:23:31pm

re: #620 JeremyR

Yeah, but can I have a cigarette?

636 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:23:34pm
637 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:23:41pm

re: #598 unclassifiable

File that one under wishful thinking. I don't think McCain is any kind of Wunderkind when it comes to speaking, but anyone who has paid three seconds of attention knows that Obama is a disaster when he is off teleprompter. That's is why McCain likes the Town Hall types meetings. He excels in unscripted small crowd venues. Ie, debates. Obama says crazy things when he is not reading them off of a script. And ends up in the news and having to clarify what he said. But let's all pretend we never notice that.

638 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:24:10pm

re: #637 kevinmumaw

ditto.

639 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:24:39pm
640 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:24:51pm

re: #634 opnion

Vagina Monologues?

Ever hear of the Penis Monologues?

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

641 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:25:11pm

re: #587 Pawn of the Oppressor

Response posted.

You won't get any argument from me about the worthlessness of the Scientology scam. I think the disagreement I am having with you and some folks is semantics (except for Walter -- he's a thetan spy).

642 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:25:34pm

I think we're getting ahead of ourselves; even if Miss Venezuela/Universe's boobs are implants, that's no reason to come to the conclusion that "there is no God".

643 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:25:35pm

re: #591 Opilio

per·si·flage 'per-si-fläzh noun <Fr., from persifler to banter, from per- thoroughly + siffler to whistle, hiss>: frivolous bantering talk : light raillery

We have some of that in San Diego now. I call it the 1:1 scale electric train set. Others call it the SD trolley.

644 JeremyR  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:25:58pm

re: #606 Carridine

Why, indeed?

Possibly because one of those infrequent meteor collisions, of which at least 6 have been documented over the last 2 billion years of Earth's existence, one of them hit, killed a few million animals over there, and pushed massive amounts of hot air up into the stratosphere, thereby displacing MASSIVE AMOUNTS of FRIGID AIR down onto the surface of the earth, at hurricane speeds, near-instantaneously FREEZING the animals and STACKING THEM tens of meters deep where they accumulated, blown by the winds.

This is not my theory, and if I knew what to call it I'd Google a link for you, but it IS a valid explanation for the factual discovery of large concentrations of remains, swept together not by flood of water but by flood of air...

There are too many occurances that date to the same time frame for that to be possible. Reports of a world wide flood are found in nearly every culture.
The Biblical description of earth is a sphere of land surrounded by a layer of water and then another layer of land. If a meteor hit the earth with sufficient force to penetrate to the layer of water, it would cause a massive shock wave that would have broken the upper crust and created such a flood.
Evidence of a flood neither proves nor disproves evolution.

645 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:26:03pm

re: #627 gman

Taner Edis, a professor of physics at Truman State University, has written quite a few papers on the ties between Islamic Creationism and Western Creationism. Here is an excerpt from Islamic Creationism in Turkey:

Yep. The ties are extensive. Radical Islamic creationists and US creationists are joined at the hip.

646 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:26:07pm

re: #616 Cicero05

You beavers talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? You talkin' to me? Then who the hell else are you talking... you beavers talkin' to me?

647 opnion  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:26:33pm

re: #639 ploome hineni

that makes me sick

really nauseating sick stuff out there


It's a rejoinder to what was said. It is a joke.

648 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:26:38pm
649 profitsbeard  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:26:44pm

The Congressional secular humanist Darwinist tools don't want to drill for oil because they know too many human skulls will pop up in the wrong geological periods and destroy their godless theory.

No skulls for Oil!

650 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:27:14pm

re: #640 Walter L. Newton

Walter, didn't click the link, despite it being NRO.

I feel so compelled as a man to say, no real guy worth his salt would ever feel the need to see the co-equivalant.

Just like those magazines for men.

No real man reads GQ.

651 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:27:16pm

re: #638 formercorpsman

ditto.

Thanks again, I gots to get up (little Obama lingo for ya there) in 4 hours, so off to bed.

652 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:27:30pm

re: #641 unclassifiable

Response posted.

You won't get any argument from me about the worthlessness of the Scientology scam. I think the disagreement I am having with you and some folks is semantics (except for Walter -- he's a thetan spy).

Looking foward to a little DEAD AGENTING, are ya. LOL.

653 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:27:59pm

re: #645 Charles

Yep. The ties are extensive. Radical Islamic creationists and US creationists are joined at the hip.

Great.

Clowns to the left, Jokers to the right.

654 DesertSage  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:28:13pm

re: #625 MandyManners

Are you willing to have Islamic creationism taught in philosophy classes?

In philosophy class? Sure, why not? There's nothing wrong with teaching all kinds of philosophy in a philosophy class.

655 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:28:16pm

re: #640 Walter L. Newton

Ever hear of the Penis Monologues?

All I ever hear mine say is "Wow, look at her. Go for it!"

656 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:28:37pm

re: #650 formercorpsman

Walter, didn't click the link, despite it being NRO.

I feel so compelled as a man to say, no real guy worth his salt would ever feel the need to see the co-equivalant.

Just like those magazines for men.

No real man reads GQ.

It's a satirical stage show created as a response to the VM.

657 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:28:43pm

re: #651 kevinmumaw

Me too.

Take it easy.

658 swamprat  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:28:51pm

re: #477 Occasional Reader ..Nice globular clusters.

659 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:28:53pm

re: #638 formercorpsman

It was late one night! I was trying to write sweetdreams! I Miss spell it to weetdreams , there was a few who like that farce ! they pin it to me!

660 JeremyR  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:28:59pm

re: #610 MandyManners

He was talking about his GRADE SCHOOL texts. Not his HS texts.

And I was pointng out that a HS teacher drilled the stuff for me. The embryo stuff was in every book on evolution I remember from school.

661 razorbacker  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:29:00pm

re: #581 Occasional Reader

Certainly not common, but not impossible.

Young lady that I know has taken up serious competitive bodybuilding. The physical transformation has been impressive.

Boobs disappeared.

So she invested in store-boughten boobies because the judges at the competitions like seeing the muscles, but also like a nice set of modified sweat glands.

Suprisingly to me, new store-boughten boobies are not rock-hard. A careful MD can hide the scar. They feel remarkably real, given the wide range of texture to the 'natural' ones.

You understand, don't you, that all this information was obtained strictly in the name of modern science and to contribute to the general store of knowledge?

662 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:29:03pm

re: #648 ploome hineni

I want to hear the large bowel speak

Just watch CNN for an Obama clip.

663 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:29:09pm

re: #600 beachkatie

It would help if you quoted - I have no clue what you're replying to.

664 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:29:32pm

"Now that we have the whole world thinking irrationally and unable to come to any kind of consensus about what's real and what's not, we can get down to what we REALLY want to do, which is fight each other over the question of how many angels can dance on a microchip!"

665 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:29:33pm

re: #656 Walter L. Newton

I know, my response quilted me in to going back and looking at the link.

666 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:29:36pm

re: #623 Charles

Yeah one of the posts that jabbed me in the eye over there:

[Link: www.russiablog.org...]

667 claire  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:29:48pm

re: #453 Charles

Yes. Frightening, isn't it? Ever been in a "Christian" bookstore? I walked into one by mistake. There are whole volumes on how to deal with Dinosaur poop on the Ark, etc. Couldn't believe it.

Wasn't terribly worried at the time though, because I thought that maybe 5% of the population bought into this stuff. Realized it's more like 50% when I looked into it. Freaked me out, big time. Started reading up on evolution and creationism ever since. It worries me that this goes on.

I'll take this as an opportunity to thank you for doggedly pursuing this topic. You're a gem. These threads are a great clarifier on a subject that needs to be talked about in the open.

I'd like to throw some spare change your way as a thanks (way over-due on that account!) Didn't you used to have a Pay-Pal thingy somewhere? :-)

668 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:29:57pm

re: #648 ploome hineni

I want to hear the large bowel speak

I did, a few weeks ago, went for my first Colon thingy. Saw the whole show on the monitor. I asked the doc for the DVD.

669 capital L  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:29:58pm

Holy cow this is great:


A is for Absurdities and more than a few. B is for Beliefs that are cruelly abused. C is for Charlatans that prey on the young. D is for Delusions from which you should run. E is for Evidence which must be supplied. F is for facts quickly denied. G is for Glaring mistakes and omissions. H is for simply Hysterical omissions. I is for Intellect left behind. J is for Juvenile when in a factual bind. K is for Knowledge never used. L is for Legitimacy so sadly abused. M is for Manic hand waving and tantrums. N is for Never happened as stated here. P is for Pandering to prejudice and fear. Q is for Queries the author doesn't want to hear. R is for Reality left unrepresented. S is for Science silenced and undefended. T is for Truth for which you must look elsewhere. U is for Unsupported assertions everywhere. V is for Veracity sadly lacking. W is for Whopper with smirking satisfaction. X is for Xanex or whatever the author was on. Y is for Young Earth Creationism a notorious yarn. Finally Z is for Zilch, the value of this book. Don't waste your time, don't give it a look.

Quoted from a 1-star review of the above "D is for Dinosaurs" book.

670 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:30:06pm

re: #659 beachkatie

Gotcha.

671 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:30:17pm

re: #646 MandyManners

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Ha!

And it gets even uglier...

[caution; strong language]

672 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:30:23pm

re: #611 ploome hineni

there seems to be a problem with the left implant

It's got a bikini top on it is the only problem I see with it.

673 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:30:56pm

re: #670 formercorpsmanThankyou for the read!:)

674 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:31:10pm
675 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:31:30pm

re: #571 Charles

Let's just say -- 5% body fat. But massive Yahyas. What's wrong with this picture?

Absolutely nothing.

Heh.

676 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:31:40pm

re: #636 ploome hineni

I would have to read the material to see what's what...There has been in the academic field a fierce rivalry between MIT and the Left Coast...(they generally tend to despise each other, have on-going feuds, etc.). Chomsky did revolutionize the field of linguistics (with generative and transformational grammar), and I don't think that his early achievments can ever be taken away from him. (the moment, though, he enters/strays into the field of politics, he becomes ridiculous.)

677 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:31:51pm

re: #627 gman

From your link:

Harun Yahya’s Legal Troubles

It is still unclear what the recent convictions mean for Oktar and the Yahya brand of creationism. Even if Oktar’s appeals fail and he does time in jail, his movement may be able to turn this into a tale of martyrdom in the hands of secular powers. The prodigious output in the name of Yahya might slow down, which might give defenders of evolution in Muslim lands a respite.

But even if the Yahya brand were to vanish as a result of all these legal troubles, this would only be a minor setback for Islamic creationism. The Harun Yahya phenomenon has made it clear that the Muslim world resists Darwinian evolution, and that more evolution-friendly interpretations of Islam remain weak. The Yahya operation has established that there is a considerable market for an Islamic-colored version of creationism. If Harun Yahya were to fall silent, this could just be an incentive for other brands to compete for that market.

678 whitehatguy  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:32:10pm

I figured it would just be a matter of time before radical Islamists and
evolutionists would team up. What do they have in common you say? Survival of fittest! :-)

679 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:32:35pm

re: #667 claire

Yes. Frightening, isn't it? Ever been in a "Christian" bookstore? I walked into one by mistake. There are whole volumes on how to deal with Dinosaur poop on the Ark, etc. Couldn't believe it.

Wasn't terribly worried at the time though, because I thought that maybe 5% of the population bought into this stuff. Realized it's more like 50% when I looked into it. Freaked me out, big time. Started reading up on evolution and creationism ever since. It worries me that this goes on.

I don't get it. It worries you that people believe differently?

680 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:33:16pm

re: #674 ploome hineni

lol

I would not like to see mine

Hell, I'm an entertainer. I'll watch myself any way I can.

681 JeremyR  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:33:28pm

re: #662 MandyManners

Just watch CNN for an Obama clip.

Was going to say you give him too much credit, but after a moments consideration decided that a horses bowels would be quite large.

682 Carridine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:33:29pm

re: #613 Walter L. Newton
Thanks, Walt! I missed it in my leaping slide down-thread... :D

683 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:33:37pm

re: #648 ploome hineni

There will be many speaking at the next session of Congress.

684 opnion  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:33:37pm

I am sitting in a hotel room in West Virginia. Just coming down from the flight, (not a pun)
I have never been on the Sunday Night thread this late. It is really different

685 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:33:42pm

re: #148 Annar

Europe is ripe for the taking and the fall may happen even faster than many suspect. The disarmament that is provided by the blind acceptance of multiculturalism and political correctness will permit a relatively weak enemy to impose its will across the continent with little resistance.

At least they'll have those fancy books to burn for heat as the new dark age descends from Andalusia to New Turkey (Germany).

Not to mention the wholesale destruction of art and other cultural pieces, properties, etc. The deaths of dogs and pigs wil be massive.

}:)     [Ah, they better get their asses in gear if they want to save their culture.]

686 slokat  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:33:49pm

I have a new theory about cave drawings & dragon stories.

Either, they are accurate depictions of creatures that existed, or ancient man dug up all the dinosaur bones & made legends & drawings about them, then converted them to pottery. That's why they aren't so easy to find anymore...

687 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:34:28pm

re: #666 Thanos

Yeah one of the posts that jabbed me in the eye over there:

[Link: www.russiablog.org...]

Yes, applauding Russia making an oil/natural gas deal with Muammar Gaddafi. The stench of the Discovery Institute just gets worse and worse the more you look into that den of liars.

688 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:34:47pm

re: #630 IslandLibertarian

Way O.T. (I need to break out of this Creationist/Evolution argument)
......so we were walking through Sam's Club and my girlfriend starts laughing and says "Look at that book."

Cue The Twilight Zone theme..................

Well, since the book is already out, it must be finished, right?

689 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:35:08pm

re: #682 Carridine

Thanks, Walt! I missed it in my leaping slide down-thread... :D

I have a bag of micro-tektites from the KT boundary kicked up by that rock.

690 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:35:15pm

re: #642 Occasional Reader

I think we're getting ahead of ourselves; even if Miss Venezuela/Universe's boobs are implants, that's no reason to come to the conclusion that "there is no God".

We can logically conclude that the existence of implants disproves the nonexistence of God.

691 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:35:15pm

re: #668 Walter L. Newton

Got an appointment on Friday. It's not until 3:00 in the afternoon, so I have to go without food for two days.

The doc has a prep I like to call "Rocket Fuel."

692 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:35:16pm
693 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:35:20pm

re: #678 whitehatguy

The islamists have not teamed up with "evolutionists".

694 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:35:27pm

re: #671 Occasional Reader

Ha!

And it gets even uglier...

[caution; strong language]

Oh, goodness. That's hilarious.

695 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:36:03pm

re: #675 Noam Sayin'

Absolutely nothing.

Heh.

*slap*

696 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:36:15pm

re: #690 Cicero05

We can logically conclude that the existence of implants disproves the nonexistence of God.

Exactly! These are my principles! If you don't like them, I have others.

Good night.

697 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:36:37pm

re: #691 Noam Sayin'

Got an appointment on Friday. It's not until 3:00 in the afternoon, so I have to go without food for two days.

The doc has a prep I like to call "Rocket Fuel."

Move your tv (or computer set up) to the bathroom. Really!

698 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:36:50pm
699 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:37:11pm

re: #625 MandyManners
Hey Mandy! Well I don't know about Sage, but based on what Gman linked to and quoted in his #627, if it was in a philosophy class I wouldn't have any problem with it.
The issue Sage and I have been wrestling with here is an apparent and unfortunate as far as I'm concerned, mixing of religious creationism - for Sage and Me, the Bible, Old and New Testaments and creationism as science or ID for Ben Stein and others.
Frankly I'd rather not have religion of any flavor taught in a public school or a school which receives taxpayer financing, at all, but IF it's gonna be taught it should be taught as philosophy not as science.

700 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:37:20pm

re: #696 Occasional Reader

Weet dream to ya!:)

701 wolfie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:37:31pm

re: #686 slokat

Don't forget imagination!
Poetic artistry.

702 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:37:53pm

re: #687 Charles

Yes, applauding Russia making an oil deal with Muammar Gaddafi. The stench of the Discovery Institute just gets worse and worse the more you look into that den of liars.

How far removed is James Baker, III, or Baker Botts?

703 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:38:19pm

re: #690 Cicero05

We can logically conclude that the existence of implants disproves the nonexistence of God.

Bullshit.

704 Opilio  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:38:42pm

re: #52 Charles

It's just astounding to me that there are creationists so locked into their belief system that they can't even see anything wrong with joining forces with Harun Yahya.

re: #571 Charles

Let's just say -- 5% body fat. But massive Yahyas. What's wrong with this picture?

Is that really what Harun's surname means?
Who knew?

705 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:38:46pm
706 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:38:58pm

re: #700 beachkatie

Weet dream to ya!:)

Wet dreams to you too!

707 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:38:58pm

re: #697 Walter L. Newton

Move your tv (or computer set up) to the bathroom. Really!

Oh, I hear ya. Had the procedure two years ago. I was amazed how quickly citrate of magnesium works.

On the upside, I'll be home with nothing to do but read and post at LGF.

Intermittently, of course.

708 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:39:24pm

re: #695 MandyManners

*slap*

Just knew I was going to pay for that one.

709 gman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:39:52pm

re: #677 Sharmuta

If Harun Yahya were to fall silent, this could just be an incentive for other brands to compete for that market.

All someone needs to do is translate the glossy Western Creationist material over to Arabic or Turkish, change a couple of parts to mesh with Islamic Creationism and then rake in the cash.

710 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:39:53pm

re: #707 Noam Sayin'

Oh, and don't forget how well it tastes.

711 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:39:55pm

re: #707 Noam Sayin'

Oh, I hear ya. Had the procedure two years ago. I was amazed how quickly citrate of magnesium works.

On the upside, I'll be home with nothing to do but read and post at LGF.

Intermittently, of course.

Ok, make note to self. Got to wash that image out of my mind.

712 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:39:56pm

re: #648 ploome hineni

Not me! That's the last thing I want!

713 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:40:02pm

re: #642 Occasional Reader Well if they ARE implants, the were certainly imperfectly designed!

714 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:40:49pm

re: #707 Noam Sayin'

Oh, I hear ya. Had the procedure two years ago. I was amazed how quickly citrate of magnesium works.

On the upside, I'll be home with nothing to do but read and post at LGF.

Intermittently, of course.

Revised...

Ok, make note to self. Got to flush that image out of my mind.

715 opnion  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:41:07pm

re: #713 realwest

Well if they ARE implants, the were certainly imperfectly designed!

Must have been an HMO

716 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:41:13pm

re: #699 realwest

Hey Mandy! Well I don't know about Sage, but based on what Gman linked to and quoted in his #627, if it was in a philosophy class I wouldn't have any problem with it.
The issue Sage and I have been wrestling with here is an apparent and unfortunate as far as I'm concerned, mixing of religious creationism - for Sage and Me, the Bible, Old and New Testaments and creationism as science or ID for Ben Stein and others.
Frankly I'd rather not have religion of any flavor taught in a public school or a school which receives taxpayer financing, at all, but IF it's gonna be taught it should be taught as philosophy not as science.

717 wolfie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:41:35pm

re: #699 realwest

Hey Mandy! Well I don't know about Sage, but based on what Gman linked to and quoted in his #627, if it was in a philosophy class I wouldn't have any problem with it.
The issue Sage and I have been wrestling with here is an apparent and unfortunate as far as I'm concerned, mixing of religious creationism - for Sage and Me, the Bible, Old and New Testaments and creationism as science or ID for Ben Stein and others.
Frankly I'd rather not have religion of any flavor taught in a public school or a school which receives taxpayer financing, at all, but IF it's gonna be taught it should be taught as philosophy not as science.


And it should an elective course.

718 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:41:51pm

re: #703 MandyManners

Um, Mandy, I uh think a it is uh joke!

719 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:42:23pm

re: #606 Carridine

Why, indeed?

Possibly because one of those infrequent meteor collisions, of which at least 6 have been documented over the last 2 billion years of Earth's existence, one of them hit, killed a few million animals over there, and pushed massive amounts of hot air up into the stratosphere, thereby displacing MASSIVE AMOUNTS of FRIGID AIR down onto the surface of the earth, at hurricane speeds, near-instantaneously FREEZING the animals and STACKING THEM tens of meters deep where they accumulated, blown by the winds.

This is not my theory, and if I knew what to call it I'd Google a link for you, but it IS a valid explanation for the factual discovery of large concentrations of remains, swept together not by flood of water but by flood of air...

I will buy that....

720 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:43:27pm

re: #719 Marvo76

I will buy that....

Gee, you just got back in time for some butt talk. See Noam Sayin' comments.

721 pegcity  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:43:32pm

re: #667 claire

dinasours on the ark, thats a good one, i've seen Jurassic Park i know what a trex will do to a goat.

722 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:43:37pm

Good night to everyone.

I had a good time.

Thank you.

723 DesertSage  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:43:38pm

re: #717 wolfie

And it should an elective course.

Aren't all philosophy classes elective?

724 opnion  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:44:09pm

Good night, Creationists, ID'ers Evolutioists & the confused.

725 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:44:16pm

More from Taner Edis:

Islamic Creationism: A Short History

The constituency for creationism is not traditionalists but modern people, even though creationists typically affirm conservative doctrines and traditional beliefs. It is precisely because many devout Muslims want to take their place in the modern world, where mastering technology is the key to success, that creationists fashion a pseudoscience that promises to harmonize science and their religious convictions. For example, the ever-popular Nur movement has been and continues to be instrumental in the development of Islamic creationism in Turkey. And social scientists have emphasized the modern character of the Nur movement. Such movements are especially notable for their enthusiasm for technology and embrace of capitalism. Nur adherents do not depart far from traditional doctrines, but their leadership structure and modes of religious participation are decidedly non-traditional. Due in part to the worldly success and influence of Nur and similar movements, many anti-evolutionary leaders and intellectuals are professionals; some are even academics. This, in fact, is an important difference between Islamic and Christian creationism. In Turkey and in other Muslim countries, anti-evolutionary views find plenty of elite support, including among academic theologians and scientists. In North America and Europe, the more sophisticated intelligent design variety of creationism exists on the fringes of intellectual life. In the Muslim world, ideas similar to intelligent design tend to be respectable intellectual options. Indeed, intelligent design itself has begun to attract attention in Turkey. Many intelligent design books have been translated, and in 2007 the local government of Istanbul sponsored public meetings promoting intelligent design.

Don't we have a poster from Istanbul who's been arguing for ID?

726 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:44:56pm

re: #687 Charles

Yes, applauding Russia making an oil/natural gas deal with Muammar Gaddafi. The stench of the Discovery Institute just gets worse and worse the more you look into that den of liars.

Wow, I got the 666 post... What's DI going to think!

Seriously, the pipeline and transit line angle in the Pac NW is bothersome. Have you seen the "bridge between Russia and Alaska" special on Discovery channel? Fascinating design etc. but the bridge would supposedly carry oil lines as well as trains and cars. It looks to be a pipedream, but on the other hand Gazprom has a lot of money, and we know they really partially run Russia right now for all intents and purposes.

727 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:45:03pm

re: #710 formercorpsman

Thanks for reminding me. They had flavored versions of the stuff; cherry and grape - which the doc prohibits.

728 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:45:21pm

re: #610 MandyManners

He was talking about his GRADE SCHOOL texts. Not his HS texts.

The grade school text had the illustrations, My son's book had the debunk info in it...When I read the son's book, I remembered the illustrations pictured in my grade school book.

729 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:45:31pm

re: #725 Sharmuta

"Clubbeaux" I think.

730 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:45:41pm

see ya lizards tomorrow! Be sweet!:)

731 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:46:14pm

re: #729 jaunte

That's the one.

732 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:46:47pm

re: #729 jaunte

"Clubbeaux" I think.

For the third time... Chicxulub

733 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:47:08pm

Now, I must come clean. My grandma wrote a book on creationism back in 1994 before she passed from ovarian cancer called This Blue Planet. (I couldn't even find a copy of it in Amazon anymore, had to settle for a creationist website, although I do have a copy of it on my bookshelf.) It is basically a weak science book with some scripture thrown in once in a while to tie it to creationism. For everything else that I have read on creationism, it is all pretty much the same. Some of it worse than others.

I loved her dearly, but I could never sit down and read the whole thing all the way through. Now, don't get me wrong, I am a believer and believe the Bible to be God's Word, but I will wait for him to explain it to me, not someone who claims to be enlightened enough to know what His thoughts and meanings are beyond all reasonable doubt.

734 wolfie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:47:10pm

re: #723 DesertSage

Aren't all philosophy classes elective?

As far as I know they are.
Our local high school doesn't have a philosophy course, but they do have a club.

735 Carridine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:47:15pm

re: #644 JeremyR

Reports of a world wide flood are found in nearly every culture.

Respectfully, Jeremy, I submit that MYTHS or Folk-Tales '...of a world wide flood are found in nearly every culture...' because trained OBSERVERS and ACCURATE RECORDS are an aspect of modern times.

A flash flood could come down several thousand years of pre-literate culture, to be recorded in modern times as "The Flood"...

The Missoula Ice-Dam could have been survived by people on the fringes, and their tales passed down to tribes carrying it northward, eastward and southward. The event carried itself westward...

A pre-literate myth is very valuable, for shaping lives and developing conscience and consciousness... but hardly PROOF of a world-wide, simultaneous deluge.

736 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:47:25pm

re: #719 Marvo76

I will buy that....

Actually a new paper came out this last week, apparently a massive coordinated worldwide community effort in fossil mapping seems to indicate that there were only three mass extinction events. I just saw a snippet on it, haven't read the paper yet.

That said, time for me to hit the hay folks. G'nite all.

737 DesertSage  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:47:25pm

re: #724 opnion

Good night, Creationists, ID'ers Evolutioists & the confused.

Holy crap, I'd give you 10 pluses for that if I could.
You actually separated "creationists" from "ID'ers"! Bravo!

But you did spell evolutionists wrong, so I'll take one plus back for bad grammar. :')

738 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:47:35pm

re: #721 pegcity

dinasours on the ark, thats a good one, i've seen Jurassic Park i know what a trex will do to a goat.

Perhaps a bit more kind than what certain Muslim Males might do to said goat.

739 ggt  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:47:39pm

Good Evening Lizards! No rain tonite in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland.

Just watched No Country for Old Men. Really didn't get it.

Can't stay-up much longer, just wanted to wish you all a good night and weet dreams.

740 razorbacker  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:48:31pm

See all y'all later.

I'm off to look something up on the intarwebtubes. That seldom goes well.

I mean, you start with a simple request for 'big natural boobs' and before you know it you're lost in a facinating theory of Atlantis' location followed up by some goomer's theory on the true population of North America before the white mans arrived.

'Oughta be some layer of fact checkers here. Maybe Congress, since all other problems have been solved, can get right on that.

Anyway, see youse guys later.

741 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:48:39pm

re: #692 ploome hineni

There's a great deal of jealousy and animosity in academic fields. That's just a fact of life...So, if I come across some virulent anti-Chomsky rhetoric...as in "he's scum", etc., I tend to write-it off (not worthwhile reading or addressing.) I have read Chomsky monographs (written by his grad students, and yes, there's a lots of incomprehensible jargon -- but, again, that fails to address Chomsky's actual achievements.) O well.

742 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:49:09pm

re: #732 Walter L. Newton

Different depression; this one in Turkey.

743 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:49:15pm
744 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:49:51pm

re: #676 J.S.

. . . Chomsky did revolutionize the field of linguistics (with generative and transformational grammar),. . .

I found Transformational Grammar impossible to figure out.

745 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:50:26pm
746 Carridine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:50:53pm

re: #689 Walter L. Newton
Kewl!

/oh, sorry... 'Those can't be micro-tektites, because the event never happened. But if it DID happen, it was within the last 6,000 years, and the tektite-thingies were backward aged to make you THIMK they're valid."

psst... bzzt...

"What? Why, yes! Yes, Jericho IS mentioned in the Holy Bible. Why?"

Because Jericho is AT LEAST 11,000 years old...

747 claire  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:50:55pm

re: #679 MandyManners

I don't get it. It worries you that people believe differently?


Yes, when they "believe" non-factual things like the earth being 6000 years old and dinosaurs living at the same time as man contrary to all evidence.

Your fine with it? How nice for you.

748 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:51:10pm
749 MajorPribluda  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:51:53pm

re: #511 Charles

The New Yorker cover is obviously a moonbat parody of what they think are right-wing ideas about the messiah....

But they got so meta with it, they ended up wrapping around and making themselves look stupid.

Charles, I hope you will put up a post about this. Still trying to get the right angle. I'm pretty damned angry about what I see as tasteless and childish cartoon, which by itself would merely be in bad taste, but then to have the perpetrators try to pawn it off not as their own stupid joke, but as their view of the right's stupidity and childishness.

I realize that the The New Yorker is in its own world of leftism, but I have held them in high regard for at least being a quality publication with which I strongly disagree. They will get away with this T-bone of the right, even if they get nailed on the cartoon itself (as it sounds is happening).

Last night I declined to post (at LGF) a particularly spicy paragraph about both Michelle and Barack Obama, in which I called them a lot of names which I thought were clever, and would pass the FCCs requirements at any rate. But I wound up saving it to a notepad file and not publishing it, because it turned out to be something which I would not be proud to have associated with my name. Now, I don't always live up to that standard, but I'm not getting paid for it, either.

The New Yorker has shot themselves in the foot, but it is inexcusable for them to try to say that they were only trying to show what the Right would do. This is the angle which I hope the Right takes on this filthy little magazine stunt.

I can't stand the unwitting fascist Obama or his bitter screeching wife. But I certainly wouldn't dress them up in a turban and terrorist outfit. Not on your blog, and not on mine.

750 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:52:24pm

re: #742 jaunte

Different depression; this one in Turkey.

I don't know that one right off hand. I collect meteorite and impacta, I have nothing from the Black Sea area, but you can try to find a reference here...

[Link: www.unb.ca...]

751 gman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:52:27pm

It turns out John Morris, President of ICR, went to Turkey 14 times looking for Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat. ICR's ties to Turkey go way back.

752 Opilio  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:53:10pm

Wowsers.

The KozKids have gone into orbit over the New Yorker cover. The diary at the top of their 'recommended' list has already collected 2000 comments -- which is enough to make their blog software keel over.

They're, oh what's the word..., unhappy.

753 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:53:53pm

re: #750 Walter L. Newton

Sorry, making a small joke. Clubbeaux is a poster who says he's in Istanbul, who was putting in some long hours pitching creationism/ID.

754 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:54:20pm

re: #751 gman

It turns out John Morris, President of ICR, went to Turkey 14 times looking for Noah's Ark on Mount Ararat. ICR's ties to Turkey go way back.

His father is Henry Morris, founder of IRC and author of The Genesis Flood. Seems the son is carrying on his father's work.

755 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:54:28pm

re: #753 jaunte

Sorry, making a small joke. Clubbeaux is a poster who says he's in Istanbul, who was putting in some long hours pitching creationism/ID.

He really is in Istanbul.

756 MajorPribluda  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:54:43pm

re: #676 J.S.

I would have to read the material to see what's what...There has been in the academic field a fierce rivalry between MIT and the Left Coast...(they generally tend to despise each other, have on-going feuds, etc.). Chomsky did revolutionize the field of linguistics (with generative and transformational grammar), and I don't think that his early achievments can ever be taken away from him. (the moment, though, he enters/strays into the field of politics, he becomes ridiculous.)

Here's a great take-down of Chomsky's politics AND grammar.

757 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:54:57pm

re: #750 Walter L. Newton

Thanks for that link by the way. I'll do some reading.

758 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:55:24pm

re: #753 jaunte

Sorry, making a small joke. Clubbeaux is a poster who says he's in Istanbul, who was putting in some long hours pitching creationism/ID.

Yea, I joke, of course, I knew that. Oh!

759 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:55:29pm

re: #755 Charles

So he may well be part of the organization?

760 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:55:50pm

re: #726 Thanos

Wow, I got the 666 post... What's DI going to think!

Seriously, the pipeline and transit line angle in the Pac NW is bothersome. Have you seen the "bridge between Russia and Alaska" special on Discovery channel? Fascinating design etc. but the bridge would supposedly carry oil lines as well as trains and cars. It looks to be a pipedream, but on the other hand Gazprom has a lot of money, and we know they really partially run Russia right now for all intents and purposes.

I hope they have a really god design, considering the weather up there, and the fact the thing would be built on some of the most seismically unstable sea floor in the world...

761 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:56:10pm

re: #759 jaunte

So he may well be part of the organization?

I asked him, and he claimed he'd never heard of Harun Yahya. Which, for a hard core creationist living in Turkey, is pretty hard to believe.

762 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:56:14pm

re: #707 Noam Sayin'
HEY NOAM! Geez buddy I really feel for ya, I do - the "prep work" is worse than the actual procedure (assuming, of course you have a doctor who believes in Valium and lots of it!).

763 profitsbeard  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:56:46pm

Dinosaurs wrote the first Bible.

Proof is in Ezekial 13:8.

764 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:56:48pm

re: #757 jaunte

Thanks for that link by the way. I'll do some reading.

I just went through the impact database and also read your "joke" post. Well, that answers my question (to myself) why I didn't know about any impact incidents in Turkey. Ain't one on record.

765 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:57:09pm

re: #723 DesertSage
If they aren't they should be!

766 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:57:18pm
767 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:57:23pm

re: #748 ploome hineni

it is designed that way

so assholes and submissives will genuflect

You are, of course, oh Reine Qui Sait Tout, correct.

Anyone who "revolutionizes" a field of study with something that people can't understand or figure out - well, what's the worth of that?

768 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:58:10pm

re: #761 Charles

I asked him, and he claimed he'd never heard of Harun Yahya. Which, for a hard core creationist living in Turkey, is pretty hard to believe.

Especially now that we see the city itself is promoting ID.

769 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:58:41pm

re: #761 Charles

He did have a good grasp of the arguments for someone who just happened along.

770 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 9:58:51pm

re: #749 MajorPribluda

When I saw that headline a couple of hours ago, and looked at the cover, it all seems too out of sorts.

It has a deeper intent.

On the surface, I think there is some attempt at garnering sympathy even it requires a self sacrifice.

771 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:00:10pm

re: #757 jaunte

Thanks for that link by the way. I'll do some reading.

And just an observation. A big advantage to understanding meteorites and impacts speak to the 6000 year old earth "theories." If you know anything about space rocks and related stuff, 6000 years just doesn't cut it.

My meteorites are on average 4.5 BILLION (Sagan echo) years old. It's the oldest artifact that a human can hold in their hand. Kewl yea.

772 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:00:40pm
773 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:00:58pm

re: #769 jaunte

His story's not believable.

774 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:02:11pm

re: #771 Walter L. Newton

I have a little slice on my desk showing the Windmanstatten crystalline patterns, so yeah I agree, kewl.

775 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:02:30pm

re: #770 formercorpsman

I just looked at the image again.

It is just too blatant, for being the caricature of the right.

Seems like some initiative to get the name out there, attach some sympathy, and push some numbers, perhaps have a talking point for down the road.

776 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:02:42pm

re: #762 realwest

HEY NOAM! Geez buddy I really feel for ya, I do - the "prep work" is worse than the actual procedure (assuming, of course you have a doctor who believes in Valium and lots of it!).

The doc doesn't use valium, but some short-term acting, but really good IV stuff. Aside from the indignity of having a camera up yer butt for 45 minutes or so, his nurses are total babes and for some reason they think I'm kinda cute. I'm almost - almost - looking forward to the return visit.

I just wish they'd give you a couple extra blasts of that IV stuff before you leave. It's Friday, afterall.

777 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:03:46pm

Here's an interesting tidbit from Reuters (2006):
" Darwinism did become an issue during the left-versus-right political turmoil before a 1980 military coup because Communist bookshops touted Darwin's works as a complement to Karl Marx.
"It looked like Marx and Darwin were together, two long-bearded guys spreading ideas that make people lose their faith," said Istanbul journalist Mustafa Akyol.
After the coup, the conservative government thought a dose of religion could bolster the fight against the extreme left."
[Link: uk.reuters.com...]

778 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:03:55pm

gman- more on Henry Morris:

Morris theorized in his book The Remarkable Birth of Planet Earth (1972) that the craters of the moon were caused by a cosmic battle between the forces of Satan and the armies of the archangel Michael.

779 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:04:24pm

re: #749 MajorPribluda
I agree with you and it's why I said what I did upthread about McCain's immediately throwing it under the bus - that's not the way McCain wants to run his campaign nor should he run his campaign that way.
The New Yorker fucked up and blamed it on the Right.
How novel.

780 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:04:25pm

Open offer to any Lizard that wants to own a 4.5 billion year old rock. Click on my avatar, go to my website, send me an email, and I'll mail you a rock from space with some printed material.

Put the whole age of everything in perspective.

And no, I'm not a dealer, just something I love to do (giving out space rocks). Postage paid, keeps me off the streets.

Walter in Golden, Co.

781 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:04:51pm

re: #776 Noam Sayin'

Midazolam Hydrochloride.

You sure it ain't the Versed that thinks your kind of cute?

/

782 gman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:05:04pm

re: #769 jaunte

He did have a good grasp of the arguments for someone who just happened along.

Funny how often that seems to happen.

783 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:05:11pm

re: #774 jaunte

I have a little slice on my desk showing the Windmanstatten crystalline patterns, so yeah I agree, kewl.

Iron meteorite. Do you know the find/fall name?

784 Alberta Oil Peon  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:05:35pm

re: #253 Charles

OK. I am now officially flabbergasted.

Humans. Riding dinosaurs.

Bwa. Bwa ha. Bwa hahahhaha.

Sorry. I just can't help myself.

Alley Oop rode a dinosawer. )Channeling the Hollywood Argyles.

If I remember right, though, Alley was originally from the Paleolithic era, and was transported back to the Mesozoic by use of a time machine. Even the cartoonist didn't make that rookie mistake.

Love these threads, Charles!

785 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:06:28pm

re: #783 Walter L. Newton

Unfortunately no; I bought it unidentified.

786 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:06:56pm

re: #752 Opilio Really? I'm shocked, shocked I say. Especially after Charles brilliant thread a short time ago about how Kos hisownself said, basically Fuck Off Obama, Fuck Off Democratic Party for a lot of Obama's flip-flops -but mostly on FISA, public funding and Iraq.

787 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:08:24pm

re: #766 ploome hineni
WHOA, really - HEY NOAM - get the name of ploome's doctor right away! LOL!

788 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:09:44pm

Harun Yahya: Call for an Islamic Union:
[Link: www.harunyahya1.com...]
This stuck out:
"4- Deal with the minority rights of Christians and Jews."

789 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:10:06pm

re: #785 jaunte

Unfortunately no; I bought it unidentified.

Irons are not my favorite. Much more petrology in the stoney's, especially when you cut them open and can see the "innards."

When you look at those little balls of solid space dust (chondrites), and know that that was the building blocks of our galaxy, revolving around our proto-sun, well, it just amazing.

790 gman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:11:07pm

re: #778 Sharmuta

gman- more on Henry Morris:

LMAO- reminded me of the this

791 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:11:33pm

re: #789 Walter L. Newton

Ok I'm sold, I'll be emailing you!

792 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:13:51pm

re: #791 jaunte

Ok I'm sold, I'll be emailing you!

Fine, I'll send you a nice piece slice, already cut open, with nice chondrules showing, star dust itself.

793 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:14:31pm

re: #249 Walter L. Newton

Shameless self-promo - back in the 70's, I had a once a month radio show on a 50 thou watt station in Dallas, SAt. midnight to 5am discussing those subjects.

Things really got interesting about 2:20, right after the last call at the bars.

Come to think about it, that's where I heard the name Marvo.

Walter in Golden, Co.

OMG, you're Art Bell!

}:)     <Jumping down and running like hell.> [Sorry, Walter, couldn't resist ... ]

794 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:15:07pm

re: #792 Walter L. Newton

I am burdened by the habit of picking up rocks everywhere I go.
Most of them wind up edging the fish pond, but I can identify them.

795 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:15:43pm

re: #794 jaunte

I am burdened by the habit of picking up rocks everywhere I go.
Most of them wind up edging the fish pond, but I can identify them.

Ok, this one doesn't go in the fish pond.

796 Alberta Oil Peon  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:15:59pm

re: #319 MandyManners

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

Mandy, I'm willing to accept the truth of that. School systems used to be very reluctant to replace textbooks frequently, particularly if it was a poorly-funded board.

797 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:16:08pm

re: #795 Walter L. Newton

No, definitely an inside rock.

798 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:18:00pm

re: #793 Kulhwch

OMG, you're Art Bell!

}:)     <Jumping down and running like hell.> [Sorry, Walter, couldn't resist ... ]

No, you're sort of correct. I co-hosted with a psychic name Sandra Senness. She was the PRO side and I was the CON side. We'd argue for 5 hours and took calls about all kinds of Art Bell type subjects.

799 wolfie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:24:28pm

re: #796 Alberta Oil Peon

Mandy, I'm willing to accept the truth of that. School systems used to be very reluctant to replace textbooks frequently, particularly if it was a poorly-funded board.

Yeah. A lot of books trying to teach evolution on an elementary level had goof-ups, misleading illustrations, and old (discredited) data. One of my former students is doing a dissertation on science textbooks from 1945 to 1970. Interesting stuff.
Some of the fights between scientists and layout artists are a hoot.
"But this picture is much prettier!"

800 Alberta Oil Peon  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:27:55pm

re: #400 yehoshua

d Muslims stand united."

Very well stated. Let us also add that history's most prolific murderers -- Nazis and Communists -- were devotees of Darwinism.

The fact that you keep repeating this lie, which has been totally debunked, says more about you than it says about Darwin.

801 Alberta Oil Peon  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 10:37:31pm

re: #487 Charles

Apparently, in addition to oil, Venezuela has very large deposits of silicon.

I'm a geologist. I can handle it.

802 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:00:53pm

re: #761 Charles

Odd. Possible, I suppose; there are a number of odd spiritual currents in the Bay Area that I haven't run across, so perhaps a hard core creationist might never have encountered another sponsor - but it does seems suspicious.

803 Dianna  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:03:16pm

Ye gods and little fishes!

I had no idea I was this far behind!

804 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:15:53pm

re: #693 Sharmuta

The islamists have not teamed up with "evolutionists".

Interesting. whitehatguy- why did you ding me down for this comment? I stated a fact.

805 wanumba  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:23:48pm

Well, that "non-partisan" article pushed every hysterical button in the book. Who are the desired bad guys in this article? WHich one is sneaking around pushing curriculums that are suspect into schools into a post-Christian Europe? Check the church-going stats in Europe lately? Countries are showing less than 20% attend church, down as low as 5%. What do they know of Christianity anymore? Yet, Which religion froze science in it's place in the 14th century? Which religion allowed science to flourish? Forgot all that already? What did Kepler believe? Boyle? Newton? Pasteur? How joyfully did Washington Carver speak of his God? Who would dare laugh and belittle their quaint beliefs today, standing before their genius and counting their accomplishments that improved the human condition? How many of the great scientists were secular humanists? You will be shocked to discover what they don't contribute to humanity.
WHich religion has the deep pockets for all this and which doesn't? It says all that in the article, but Christians are the ones everyone's shaking against with irate disgust. Secular Humanists are not friendly to Christian morals or concepts, but somehow this article is supposed to be totally unbaised. It's hysterically written and loaded with innuendo and dark phrasing.
How about a reality check? How horrible is it for someone to believe that all men were created by God with a God-given dignity? I can think of worst things. Like a religion that teaches that the trees will rat on the Jews hiding behind them so that can be killed. That promotes one group over another, that blames the world's ills on one people.

DO not be frivolous or ignorant with theologies. The Koran denigrates Jesus to a mere prophet, in a deliberate altering and twisting of Christian scripture, which predates it; rejects Jesus as the Son of God, alters and twists the Hebrew scriptures to make Ishmael the heir over Issac. These are HUGE travesties - HUGE. WHy? If Issac was not the heir, the son of the inheritance, then the prophecies of the Savior and Redeemer of mankind coming through the line of Issac, the Jews is wrong. Then Jesus is not the Son of God and wasn't killed and resurrected, like the Muslims and the secular efforts like the Da Vinci Code want us to believe, so we are foolishly wasting our time and worship on a fantasy. No cleansing of sins. All for nothing. "If Christ is not resurrected, CHristians are to be pitied above all for wasting their time believing in salvation."
Now, we are all supposed to take the word of Humanists who reject other religions for their own that Christian creation and Muslim creation are one? Say what? Shall we set the versions of paradise and heaven side by side and see if that holds true, too?
WHo's getting the success in promoting religion in schools? Not the creation people who are constantly laughed at and wrongly muddled up with ID, which is a distinctly different concept. ID proponents are getting their butts kicked, but there is one ideology that is worming it way into schools with not even a whimper, but a "we are tolerant" and multi-cultie so come right in and make us feel ethnic." Christian clubs are gettiing the boot in favor of Ramadan prayer rooms and foot-washing facilties.
The unholy alliance of the Left and Islamofascism. Christians and Jews will not be welcome.
Tell all now which of the Ten Commandments are not good?
Don't lie, don't steal, don't covet, honor your parents, don't worship idols, take one day off a week to rest ... well? We love the commandments, they are universal and correct. But we don't cotton to that first one, Love God with all your heart, your soul and your mind. Excellent rules for good living, but pheh! Someone musta just made them up sometime and if someone insists they are from God himself, they are a kook and can't be trusted with civilization.

806 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:28:26pm

re: #44 ErnieG

I'm afraid you may be right. The Europeans know that when Christians are upset, it's amusing because they know that the Christians won't do anything past writing letters to the editor. If, on the other hand, Muslims are upset it's not amusing. They know that , if provoked, the Muslims will do something. They know it so deeply that even to speculate out loud about what that something may be brings cries of censure and accusations of islamophobia.

The philosophy of appeasement perplexes me. If one finds that reason and sanity will drive some to violence, one should go after them and attempt root out the core of such backwards thinking, and certainly not try to placate them.

One should not feed the gator to be the last one eaten, one should instead hunt that gator and eat it themselves.

Is there any hope for Europe?

This American believes so. I am not going to throw my nations allies under the bus because of they are, sadly, bearing the brunt of this current dhimitude.

807 srmoss  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:33:34pm

re: #645 Charles

Yep. The ties are extensive. Radical Islamic creationists and US creationists are joined at the hip.

What's with the hostility directed at people who teach or even believe in creation. What grave harm has been done by the teaching of creation other than the hurt feelings of atheists.

808 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:45:05pm

re: #807 srmoss

What grave harm has been done by the teaching of creation other than the hurt feelings of atheists.

Very real, grave harm could come to a lot of people if the scientific medical advancements we've made in the last few decades were suddenly to come to a screeching halt because of poor science education.

809 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:49:41pm

re: #805 wanumba

You forgot "Thou shall not bear false witness".

810 Phocid  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:55:36pm

re: #807 srmoss

What's with the hostility directed at people who teach or even believe in creation. What grave harm has been done by the teaching of creation other than the hurt feelings of atheists.

It is annoying to have to repeat again (and again and again): you can't teach religion in schools and call it science. The harm it does is denigrate science and confuse children by subjecting them to the religious obsessions of ignorant adults. I recall another attack on science in recent years, in the 1990s Postmodern feminists tried to bring their ideological obsessions to bear on academia. One feminist professor famously called Newton's Principia Mathematica a "rape manual." That's how bad it can get.

811 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:56:18pm

re: #805 wanumba

I'm sorry- you did say "don't lie". Too bad the ID proponents couldn't abide by that commandment, huh?

812 wanumba  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:57:27pm

If you're gonna ding down, why don't you list what isn't true? And if it is all true, then what's the ding for? Inconvenient?

See folks? There is an emotional manipulation in that article. Pushes buttons that shouldn't be pushed to set people against others. The goal of that piece was to panic readers.

Someone up there is selling billion year old rocks. Great! Got a certificate of authenticity? Talking money here. Can one protect oneself against fraud with a claim of one billion? Anyone know what One Billion really means? As in science? In physics? As in wear and tear, as in half-lives, as in atomic desintigration? If one had a rock from Mars, is it possible to prove that in court? That a rock on Earth positively came from Mars? Now, a rock a billion years old - how long does it take before the external and internal forces of decay reduce that rock to powder, and then to scattered atoms, then the atoms themselves lose their integrity? The ruins of Rome and Egypt are only measured in thousands of years, with once-beautiful statues lie cracked and crumbling in the soil.
Anyone able to prove that a billion year old rock is NOT an impossibility?
We are blithely using numbers that we have no concept of.

813 wanumba  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 11:58:33pm

re: #809 Sharmuta

It's called lying.

Seen any lies?

814 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:01:54am

re: #813 wanumba

Yes.

815 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:03:08am

re: #811 Sharmuta

I'm sorry- you did say "don't lie". Too bad the ID proponents couldn't abide by that commandment, huh?


Yeh, and how about these lies?
Lysenkoism
The snows of Kilimanjaro are melting
Global Warming/Climate Change a la Al Gore
Cold Fusion

816 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:04:48am

re: #815 wanumba

Yep- lies like there's no evidence to support evolution.

817 Phocid  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:17:33am

I'd say there's two kinds of belief: belief in the persuasive nature of evidence and reason, and on the other hand philosophical speculation and superstition. I believe that religion should tend to spiritual concerns and leave science to matters that require reason and proof. Obviously science can't tell you how to lead a moral life, how to attain happiness, what is the purpose of our lives. So science does not impinge on religion and can exist comfortably beside it. Only the most literally-minded find this a problem and want to impose their ignorance on others.

818 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:20:58am

re: #816 Sharmuta

Yep- lies like there's no evidence to support evolution.


Oh, at least you aren't insinuating I'd lied about anything. I was wondering there. I'm not the least bit interested in ID. Never have been and only heard of it last year, on this blog in fact. However, I have made the judgement call that Islamofascism is a far far worse danger than ID. Sorry, that's a practical call, not a religious one.

The schools are long gone, science and math and history and literature have already been brutally wrecked by the Liberal Left, so all this hand wringing and irate seems preposterous to me, most of which is being done by people who don't have kids in schools, as we do. ID isn't going anywhere and is just a cynically convenient smoke screen to cover the wreckage that the Left has made of education in America. Science education is all environmental and Global Warming or it's new morph, the supremely adaptably slippery "Climate Change."
It's laughable to hear people pronounce that they are striving to keep the integrity of science in our schools. Science was trashed years ago, all subverted to the politics of the Left. American kids are completely unprepared to tackle hard science, talent is wasted and the country has to look internationally to find people trained to do the work required.
Oh, but suddenly, it's all ID's fault. Ha! They're the newbies. The public school system has ruined science already without ID anywhere near it, but who's getting the blame? The Leftie facilitators who don't believe in "educating?" Nope.

819 mean Gene  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:26:18am

Why does a so-called scientist have to use a pseudonym, I have to ask of this Harun Yahya (nee Adnan Oktar) who is said to have penned the "Atlas of Creation?"

What self-respecting university, college or even high school would allow such a book in their library, much less their class syllabus?

I was watching Andrew Bostom on C-SPAN2 tonight and it seems that dhimmis, whether Christian or Jew or something else, make as good a ''useful idiot'' as any Muslim school girl who uses the Western legal system to try to bring in a system which will surely hold her back.

What people won't trade away for "peace."

Truly sad.

820 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:31:44am

re: #818 wanumba

Now who's insinuating? Why don't you try reading some of the previous threads on this issue before going off and claiming that we're blaming ID for the failing public schools? Fact is- LGFers know what the left has done to public education, it's just we don't see the solution being inserting so-called right-wing BS either.

821 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:32:20am

re: #819 mean Gene

Why does a so-called scientist have to use a pseudonym, I have to ask of this Harun Yahya (nee Adnan Oktar) who is said to have penned the "Atlas of Creation?"

What self-respecting university, college or even high school would allow such a book in their library, much less their class syllabus?

Truly sad.


Uh, Howard Zinn, required reading
An Inconvenient Truth, required viewing
Ward Churchill
Norm Chomsky
Columbia University feting Ahmedinejad while Iranian students hang banners out their windows that read, "Live Free or Die."

The US education system has been completely degraded by the Left, top to bottom. They are ripe for all manner of foolishness and despicable practices. They are masters of projection, though.

822 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:33:24am

re: #820 Sharmuta
You have kids?

823 srmoss  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:33:24am

re: #810 Phocid

It is annoying to have to repeat again (and again and again): you can't teach religion in schools and call it science. The harm it does is denigrate science and confuse children by subjecting them to the religious obsessions of ignorant adults.


It's also annoying to ask a specific question and receive only another sweeping condemnation. But since you claimed it was for the children I guess you must be right.

824 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:35:01am

re: #820 Sharmuta

? Fact is- LGFers know what the left has done to public education, it's just we don't see the solution being inserting so-called right-wing BS either.


We? You mean I'm not part of LGFers?

825 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:38:05am

re: #824 wanumba

You seem to be just as aware as the rest of us what the left has done to education.

826 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:39:12am

re: #825 Sharmuta

You seem to be just as aware as the rest of us what the left has done to education.

That's big of you.

827 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:42:19am

re: #32 Marvo76

Well at least one thing I noted in here has some fact to it, "One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11. In a piece of overt symbolic theatre the book’s creators marked the anniversary of 9/11 last year by sending the Atlas to a large number of Protestant priests across Europe. The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united." It was Hitlers belief in Darwinism that propelled him to the "final solution", in fact he is quoted as as referring to Darwin to prove the Aryan race was superior....

Sal: Hitler merely made use of a pre-existent German antisemitism that had been around since Martin Luther, at least. Nazis and eugenecists were actually acting in direct opposition to evolutionary theory, as they were not allowing environmental selection to take its natural course unhindered, but instead substituted their own self-appointed 'intelligent design' programs.

that being said, with all the fossils in evidence in thousands of drawers in hundred of museums, have you ever seen a solid family tree of ANY species? Where are all the transition fossils? You would think they would have a solid set of at least one species in the multitudes that they have discover and cataloged over the last two hundred years or so....

Sal: the demand for every father and son from time immemorial is a clumsy attempt to make the perfect the enemy of the convincing. Oner does not need to see all 26 letters to know that an english alphabet exists.

828 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:43:44am

re: #826 wanumba

Just as big of me as it was big of you to belittle us "hand wringers".

829 mean Gene  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:44:42am

re: #821 wanumba

Uh, Howard Zinn, required reading
An Inconvenient Truth, required viewing
Ward Churchill
Norm Chomsky
Columbia University feting Ahmedinejad while Iranian students hang banners out their windows that read, "Live Free or Die."

The US education system has been completely degraded by the Left, top to bottom. They are ripe for all manner of foolishness and despicable practices. They are masters of projection, though.

Good points.
I sat in awe tonight of Andrew Bostom going over his classical history work on Islam and anti-semitism, filled with original quotes and sources.
It got me thinking about how far history books have fallen since I went to school.

Howard Zinn, indeed.
That man wouldn't know a footnote if it fell on him.
Yet he is the History Book writer of Record for all America's school children and they are all being indoctrinated with his Marxist Revisionist anti-American pap.
I wonder who writes America's science books?
Years ago Charles touched on the Muslim attempt to rewrite American History so that Islam could claim this land as their own:
like Columbus' crew being Muslims, California being an Arab name (Caliph-ornia) and the natives early Europeans found all being Arab migrants.
So, when will that type of book make the rounds into our public schools again?

830 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:46:23am

re: #110 lone_wolf_in_illinois

Not exactly the new flavor of the week, but the same old failed product deceptively repackaged by unscrupulous marketers intent on capitalizing on a brand new target market too young to know why this poisonous product should be avoided at all costs.

Other than that minor quibble, +1 to you. It should indeed be a red flag, but sadly there are those that would rather inhale the smoke than heed the alarm call.

831 Render  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:48:06am

re: #804 Sharmuta

FinnAgain did the same to me, at least twice, the other day...

NOTED,
R

832 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:50:17am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11.

Ben Stein!

Don't forget Kennedy's assassination.

833 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:51:44am

re: #53 laZardo

I guess it's because evolution directly contradicts Holy Scripture, regardless of faith.

Sal: It may give literalist infallibilists problems, because it shows that we have speciated, diversified and evolved from a very few common ancestors very long ago, instead of every species being created independently just as is, but outside of those few who embrace a 6000 year old earth where God made Adam and apes separately, I don't see many Christians who have problems with evolutionary theory, for most of them see Genesis as metaphorical rather than literal. There are only a few literalists infallibilists in the Christian ranks, but there are a whole bunch of them among Muslims.

834 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 12:58:55am

re: #828 Sharmuta

Just as big of me as it was big of you to belittle us "hand wringers".


We have six kids in six grades, elementary to college, after educating them in the Systeme Education d'Etranger, the French overseas education system. Two of our children were awarded the French National Brevet Diplome, we had a seventh grader who passed with honor, the French 4 level high school National French Exam, usually taken by seniors in High School.
I venture to say that we are MORE profoundly aware of the state of the US Education system than MANY Lizards. I have read many threads about the subject and have noted that many posters do not have kids in schools, so therefore it is theoretical to them, not actual. We are also very very aware of the pervasive discrimination against boys in the schools, public AND private. Boys are dropping out of schools at unacceptable rates, but given the treatment they get, who can blame them - it's a national disgrace.
Instead of considering our comments as coming from a new perspective, to elicit more thinking about the issue, as people who have to deal with this every single day at 6 different levels, plus how poorly schools treat parents, you're grumpy. Well, we get grumpy several times a week for some freedom/spirit squashing thing that is already crushing the life and creativity out of the American student, that's our next generation that can't handle hard work, perserverence, strict methodologies and can't perform calculations and can't spell - why wouldn't we think the ID debate is no more than a side show to the main event?

835 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:07:16am

re: #829 mean Gene
Yes, ugh, Zinn.
This is the kind of thing that makes us grumpy with schools:
Our son took AP (Advanced Placement) AMerican History. You pay extra for the course and pay extra for the test - the goal is to score high enough on the AP exam to skip out on the entry level college courses - ie distribution courses. Trick is, there is no penalty for the school when students don't make a high enough grade to qualify. The whole course is designed to teach to the test. Howard Zinn was not part of the AP curriculum, but the teacher forced the students to add his pathetic screed to their required reading, which meant less time for studying exam-related materials. That teacher wanted to be sure they got the Zinn veiwpoint and lied about it when challenged.

AP courses used to be useful, but are just marketing gimmicks now.

ITBS testing uses a dishonest graphing system to post student test results.

The schools are already full of lies and lying.

836 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:09:47am

re: #98 Marvo76

I am grateful, but questions abound, such as finding trackable DNA in supposedly million year old fossilized bones, and the masses of animal fossil remains which are attributed to eons but could have come from a connection to the great flood. Why else would they be concentrated in certain areas and massed as if swept up together in a large mudflow?

Sal: Is your complaint that such DNA can be found, or that it can't? If the bones are a million years old and fossilized, I would wonder exactly how it could be extracted. Plus there's the fact that the very process of fossilization replaces the prior substances present in the bones with surrounding osmoted minerals, while preserving their shape.

You can forget about a great flood having killed off the dinos, at least one that any humans witnessed. The dinos were killed off by a comet that hit around the Gulf of Mexicao around 65 million years ago; modern homo sapiens has only been around for a couple of hundred thousand years. Plus, there's no geological indication of a global flood, and in fact, if all the glaciers and ice caps in the world melted, there would still be quite a bit of land above sea level.

Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's... How could they have done the forensics from a few bones that we do today, in order to come up with the shapes? I take neither "theory" at face value, I find enuff questions about both, to label them both theories and not fact.

Sal: Can you point me to such pics? I have seen pics of cave paintings from 35,000 years ago (Lascaux, France). I think people seeing T Rex or Stegosaurus or Triceratops in such pics are really indulging in some intense wishful thinking.

And once again we see the canard from ignorance, that assumes that scientific theories are tentative, rather than being solid and sound organizing principles that allow vast amounts of empirical evidence from across several different disciplines (biology, botany, geology, paleontology, genetics) to make coherent sense.

837 coquimbojoe  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:12:29am

re: #836 Salamantis

Sal: Can you point me to such pics? I have seen pics of cave paintings from 35,000 years ago (Lascaux, France). I think people seeing T Rex or Stegosaurus or Triceratops in such pics are really indulging in some intense wishful thinking.

And once again we see the canard from ignorance, that assumes that scientific theories are tentative, rather than being solid and sound organizing principles that allow vast amounts of empirical evidence from across several different disciplines (biology, botany, geology, paleontology, genetics) to make coherent sense.

He gave a link up thread a few hours ago. It was a bat-shit crazy site. He made himself look very foolish with it.

838 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:17:13am

re: #834 wanumba

I remember now your post on obama and spanish- it was good, and IIRC, I dinged you up on that.

I think the state of our education system is an important topic, but being that these threads focus on one aspect of that, they're naturally centered on ID and not the body as a whole. And for some Lizards who might not have kids but have a science back ground, the science is important to them- can't say I blame them.

839 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:17:54am

re: #831 Render

Saw that.

Got your
Back,
S

840 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:19:08am

re: #105 Thanos

Yep, he's a quack:

Dr. Girouard was born and raised in Chalmette, LA. He graduated from Chalmette High School as Valedictorian and was student council president. After high school, he attended Southeastern Louisiana University and earned a BS in Chemistry with minors in Mathematics and Physics. His academic success followed him through college and he graduated second in the School of Science and Technology and was awarded the Outstanding Graduating Chemistry Senior award.

Dr. Girouard’s love for science and inquisitive mind took him to Louisiana State University Medical Center in 1980, and he received postgraduate training at Ochsner Foundation Hospital in Internal Medicine and Anesthesiology. In 1981 he started his weight loss practice in Louisiana.
Dr. Girouard had been overweight most of life. When he was 6 years old, he was so overweight that his parents had to have a communion suit tailor made for him. He lost weight in junior high, going from 185 pounds to 110 in one year. Twelve years ago he lost 100 pounds going from 265 to 170. He has maintained this weight since then. Due to his own personal battles with weight, he has a genuine compassion for others dealing with these same issues. This care and concern became a mission to find a treatment program to help others manage their weight.

Dr. Girouard's weight loss clinic — where mumbo jumbo meets jumbo gumbo.

841 mean Gene  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:19:44am

re: #835 wanumba

I'm so sorry for what all you must go through.
When I went to school all the college bound students were kept apart from the tradesmen-type ones.
For free, while officially still in HS, we got some college units in trig, calculus, History, physics, chemistry and more.
I remember taking drafting class and meeting 25 students I had never even seen before because of the way we were segregated.

842 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:23:05am

re: #134 Marvo76

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

Sal: You're not serious, are you? Because if you are, you may be a danger to yourself and others...

That site has pics of people playing with dinos, for Chrissake! How loony can one get?

843 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:25:27am

re: #145 Marvo76

that name doesn't ring a bell...My son gets the creation science magazine, and also has the book "tornado in a junkyard" which debunks a lot of the Darwin info...

Sal: Oh, puh-LEEEZE!

844 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:26:37am

Five years ago, the site to go to for the state of American math and science was MATHEMATICALLY CORRECT.
It was set up by parent-mathemeticians who were appalled at the quality of mathematics instruction in California. Due to national demands for more, they set up a huge site with links to the Third International Math and Science Exams, analysed and rated all the US textbooks, compared and contrasted World Champs Singapore versus the pathetic US, and their textbooks, then since math and science are so interdependent, expanded into science curriculum reporting. They were they ones hitting at Fuzzy math and all the trends.
They offered up a complete overhaul of the California science standards, an entire program set up FOR FREE as a civic gift to the state of California, with scores of scientists, and at least THREE NOBLE PRIZE SCIENCE WINNERS, and were turned down by the California state school board who gave the science overhaul contract to a bunch of school educators for a fee.
Don't know if the site is still active, but it was phenomenal.
Their papers on the state of US science education were outstanding, and if the site is still available, required reading to understand what's going wrong.
It takes years to develop skills in students who can then go on to handle the demands of research. US schools have failed this - for over a decade.

845 wanumba  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:36:48am

Yay!
Thanks for the comments - think we're all back on track. If ya'll knew what we've just been through with two different schools, you'd understand better why the problem of ID pales in comparison to the reality we are fighting right now. ID, bottom line, from this household, is still theoretical - it hasn't got any traction school-wise, so until that happens, and we're doubtful it's going anywhere anyway, we'll be more attentive, but what's already IN the schools NOW is real and destructive. We are crippling the next generation.
Have you noticed that schools are now using prison terminology?

ANyway, food for thought. Night all.

846 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:39:46am

re: #678 whitehatguy


I figured it would just be a matter of time before radical Islamists and
evolutionists would team up. What do they have in common you say? Survival of fittest! :-)

Here!

I am really losing patience with the willfully ignorant and the intentionally dishonest.

847 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:40:13am

re: #197 Marvo76

re: #168 Thanos

I looked through enough to see that there are outright lies there. What happened to "thou shall not bear false witness?"

like I said some are suspect, but not all. I try to sift all the different info and see what comes to the top and what gets thrown aside. I take nothing at face value, at least until I can do some investigating on my own. Creationism as well as Darwinism. One example about the falsification of Darwinism where facts were tossed out are the pictures of the embryo's supposedly looking similar until they were born. They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Sal: All that site does is throw a dumptruckload of incoherent mud out hoping some will stick.

As far as searching through thousands of books and finding one with a problem (and actually, there are points to the theory; otherwise human embryos would not develop gills at a point during gestation), whu don't you read Stephen Jay Gould's book Ontogeny and Phylogeny, which is the most contemporary book-length discussion of the subject for a general audience?

And if you wanna get into something more technical and recent, I can recommend this:

Evolution of Neural Ontogenies:The Ontogeny and Phylogeny of Invertebrate and Vertebrate Nervous Systems: The Ontogeny & Phylogeny of Invertebrate & Vertebrate Nervous Systems Symposium on 'the Mechanism of Evolutionary Change in Neural Systems
by Kiisa C. Nishikawa

848 freetoken  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:43:52am

In googling around for info on Islamic creationism and its relationship with US creationism, I came across the following Canadian Broadcasting Corp radio program from last year. This may have been linked to before and I missed it.... but anyway, it is a report from Turkey on creationism:

CBC radio show report on creationism in Turkey, with US connection. Go down to "part 2", and play the audio. It is a 20 minute segment.

Around 12 minutes in there is a brief interview with Berlinski... it is very telling that he enamored with the religion.... "We need to get together".... "We're in the midst of a worldwide religious revival"...

849 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:46:55am

re: #217 Marvo76

and yet you are debating, as for crap, Darwinism is just as full of such bovine excretement, but to one who is going forward with the idea that "there is no reason to debate because you can't possibly be as smart as me or the sources of my info" You prove the old adage, "there are none so blind as those who wil not see" and yet I will be willing to look at any credible links you post and keep an open mind.....without derision

Sal: Just go to the index page, click on Blog Storm, the click on evolution. Check out the articles that come up, and check out the spinoff links titled Related to Post. That should get your education started.

But if you are what the creationist folks are throwing at us now, they must be as desperate as Al Qaeda using Down's Syndrome women as suicide bombers.

850 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:53:48am

re: #322 ploome hineni

Had I read this comment two or three months ago, I might have said you were full of it. Not so much now.

But then again, maybe that's what some folks are looking for, spouting the nonsense that they indulge in, with the full intention of provoking ad hom for some kind of internut equivalent of "street cred". Suffering imaginary slings and arrows for phony "martyr points".

851 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 1:58:38am

re: #850 Slumbering Behemoth

Maybe we can get zombie to add "martyr points" to the LGF dictionary.

852 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 2:03:09am

re: #851 Sharmuta

With credit going to Lizard Jaunte for term coinage. Well, that's the Lizard I saw use the term first, anyway.

853 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 2:11:38am

re: #852 Slumbering Behemoth

Indeed- putting "martyr points" in the search came up with jaunte as the coiner of the phrase. I say, "High five!"

854 leereyno  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 2:17:43am

The cyclical resurgence of creationism as an issue is proof positive that 50% of the population is of below average intelligence.

Some people are smart, some are stupid. Some would-be smart people are made functionally stupid through indoctrination. Some stupid people operate at a level beyond their natural ability thanks to education.

The reason why issues like creationism just won't stay dead is because there are idiots out there who keep digging it up and breathing life back into it again.

Creationism is the Christian Fundamentalist version of Holocaust denial. Every single piece of evidence says that they're completely full of shit, but they keep right on singing the same old tune because they are completely and utterly without moral integrity or intellectual honesty.

Moral integrity requires that one deal with the truth and confront the world as it is, not as one wishes it were. Intellectual honesty requires revising what one believes when presented with proof that one is wrong. It also requires an honest appraisal of what constitutes proof.

I'm VERY, VERY glad that Charles is shining a bright light on these asshats and demonstrating to the world that being a conservative doesn't mean being drinking the Kook-Aide of biblical literalists.

855 freetoken  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 2:25:06am

re: #854 leereyno


Moral integrity requires that one deal with the truth and confront the world as it is, not as one wishes it were. Intellectual honesty requires revising what one believes when presented with proof that one is wrong.

You are assigning a moral value to an individual's ability to change their thought processes... something with which I can not concur.

For someone who has fully believed in one worldview, to then have that view completely challenged and shaken, can require of that person a great deal of emotional and not just quantitative or logical abilities.

856 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 2:28:20am

re: #400 yehoshua

d Muslims stand united."

Very well stated. Let us also add that history's most prolific murderers -- Nazis and Communists -- were devotees of Darwinism.

History's most prolific murderers - Hitler and Stalin - did it with populations that had been soaked in Christianity and antisemitism for a thousand years.

857 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 2:30:14am

re: #855 freetoken

You are assigning a moral value to an individual's ability to change their thought processes... something with which I can not concur.

For someone who has fully believed in one worldview, to then have that view completely challenged and shaken, can require of that person a great deal of emotional and not just quantitative or logical abilities.

Especially when it's something as personal as faith.

858 srmoss  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 2:39:23am

re: #849 Salamantis

Sal:
But if you are what the creationist folks are throwing at us now, they must be as desperate as Al Qaeda using Down's Syndrome women as suicide bombers.

That's it, take the high road.

859 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 3:03:14am

re: #537 yehoshua

The problem is that Mein Kampf, Hitler's blueprint for genocide, is filled with references to Darwin.

This is false. I also believe in knowing my enemies, so I own the Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital, and Mein Kampf. I checked the index of Mein Kampf, and there are NO listed mentions of Darwin, Eugenics, Galton or Evolution. Nor, btw, are there any listed references to Nietszche. There are a lot of references to Marxism, though.

860 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 3:14:18am

re: #400 yehoshua

d Muslims stand united."

Very well stated. Let us also add that history's most prolific murderers -- Nazis and Communists -- were devotees of Darwinism.


This 'pearl of wisdom' comes from the same POS who said KZ inmates were killed as a divine retribution of sorts, for being selfish enough to keep their meager food rations to themselves...

Have you any sense of decency?

Guess not.

861 yochanan  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 3:16:27am

communism was anti christian almost in the same way that islam is anti christian.

nazism is more complicated as they seemed to have borrowed the worst parts of euro history and made an idology to fit it.

862 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 3:19:23am

re: #636 ploome hineni

I bought and read several linguistics books by Noam Chomsky. I thought about what I had read. And then I bought and read the Anti-Chomsky Reader. It is spot on.

863 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 3:26:41am