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Muslim Creationism on the Rise in Europe

Sun, Jul 13, 2008 at 6:38:15 pm PDT

The New Humanist has an article on the Islamic creationist group led by Turkish kook Harun Yahya (nee Adnan Oktar), and their mysteriously well-funded efforts to promote the anti-science agenda in Europe: Western front.

Examples cited of a growing creationist influence ranged from subtle downgrading of evolution in science education to outright attacks on the validity of Darwinism and the personality of Darwin himself. In Greece, the report found, evolution education was relegated to the very bottom of the science curriculum, which often meant in effect that secondary students learnt nothing about it because of a lack of time. In Switzerland organisations like The European Biblical Centre and the ProGenesis group were devoting considerable resources to promoting creationist education. In Russia a 16-year-old girl launched a court case against the Ministry of Education, backed by the Russian Orthodox Church, challenging the teaching of just one “theory” of biology in school textbooks as a breach of her human rights. In the UK in 2006 the Intelligent Design propagandists Truth in Science sent out a “teaching pack” to every secondary school and sixth-form college in the country.

One of the more bizarre cases cited by the report comes from Poland, where in October 2006 deputy minister of education Miroslaw Orzechowski told the Gazetta Wyborccza that “The theory of evolution is a lie, an error that we have legalised as a common truth.” He further argued that evolution is the “feeble idea of an aged non-believer” and put this error down to the fact that Darwin was “a vegetarian and lacked fire inside him”.

Each of these cases confirms the existence of a strong Christian creationist lobby in Europe, but the report also focused its attention on a new phenomenon – the rise of Muslim creationism. The central figure here is the Turkish Muslim creationist Adnan Oktar, who, writing under the pen name Harun Yahya, has made a career out of attacking Darwinian evolution. Oktar is a figure fairly well known to Darwinists and despite his claims to scientific competence is clearly little more than a crank. However what had changed, according to the report, was the scale and ambition of Oktar’s pseudo-scientific message. Since 2006 copies of a substantial, glossy and smartly packaged book called Atlas of Creation, credited to Harun Yahya, had been arriving at schools and universities across Europe. In Spain, France, Switzerland and Denmark clear evidence of the growing resources and confidence of European Muslim creationism was thudding on to the mat. The book is the first of a projected seven-part series, and parts two and three have already begun arriving at educational institutes Europe-wide.

Clearly, for the assembly, the report amounted to strong evidence that creationists were working strategically across Europe, with the aim of influencing the science curriculum as well as public opinion. Though it does not say so explicitly the implication of the report is that creationists of different denominations and faiths are, or might soon be, working together in a concerted assault on science teaching, in the same way that American creationists have been for the past decade. In response to the call for action from the Assembly, only the Swedish government acted promptly, swiftly issuing a general ban on the teaching of creationism and Intelligent Design in their schools.

My own copy of Atlas of Creation, all six kilos, arrived in 2006, just after my research group at the University of Aarhus had launched our Darwin in Denmark project, with online editions of Danish translations of Charles Darwin’s writings. In fact 20 copies arrived, unrequested and completely free.

Hardbound and expensively produced with almost 800 pages of text and images printed on glossy paper, this book presents one of the most remarkable attacks not only on the theory of evolution but on science itself. The book is full of scientific jargon, diagrams and tables, and appears to discuss Darwinian evolution in detail and refute it through careful consideration of the evidence of the fossil record, animal biology and the history of science. Most of this is the same old tired creationism, emphasising the gaps in the fossil record and making much of the various scientific hoaxes like “Piltdown Man” which, it argues, were attempts by Darwinians to fabricate proof for their hypothesis.

One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11. In a piece of overt symbolic theatre the book’s creators marked the anniversary of 9/11 last year by sending the Atlas to a large number of Protestant priests across Europe. The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united.

(Hat tip: Timothy Sandefur.)

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1 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:39:43pm

They will bow to this....

2 simonml  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:41:38pm

These people are free to be idiots, but keep our children's education out of it!

3 ted  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:42:11pm

This was predictable.

4 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:42:49pm

Science = logic + facts + willingness to adjust based on new evidence.

Can't have any of that.

///

5 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:42:59pm
The resolution focused on the way that creationists across the continent, using the model pioneered in America, have been targeting education, and warned of “a real risk of serious confusion being introduced into our children’s minds between what has to do with convictions, beliefs, ideals of all sorts and what has to do with science”. “An ‘all things are equal’ attitude,” it concludes, “may seem appealing and tolerant, but is in fact dangerous.”

The moronic convergence bites us in the ass.

6 Macker  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:43:02pm

Muslim Creationism seems to be an oxymoron to me.

7 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:43:30pm

The Designer some seek might just not be the one they're expecting.

It's a slippery slope, and one I'd prefer not to go down.

8 Josephine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:43:33pm

Harold's gonna have a conniption.

9 Bobblehead  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:44:07pm

It's back to the Dark Ages.

10 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:44:16pm

Poor Darwin. All he did was sail around the world, collecting thousands of specimens that eventually proved his theory. How dare he!

11 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:44:21pm
One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11.


Ben Stein!

12 simonml  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:44:46pm

Isn't the Sabbath enough time to learn about Creationism? I learned all that stuff on Sunday and then learned other things in school.

13 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:45:09pm

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

14 tripletdad  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:45:32pm

re: the last line -
if Christians and muslims unite on something, it can't be a good thing...

15 livefreeor die  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:46:43pm

"In a piece of overt symbolic theatre the book’s creators marked the anniversary of 9/11 last year by sending the Atlas to a large number of Protestant priests across Europe. The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united."

United until the Muslims turn around and demand that the Christians convert or submit.

16 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:47:37pm

we're going backwards.
something is really wrong.

17 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:48:40pm

re: #15 livefreeor die

United until the Muslims turn around and demand that the Christians convert or submit.


Exactly, this is a deal with the devil. Pushing the common cause of theocracy with Muslims is a loss for Christians.

18 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:48:49pm

It was the rise of science and technology that eventually permitted Europe to devise the military technologies that defeated Muslim-ruled nations in battle. In particular, Napolean's 1799 victory over a Muslim Army in the Battle of Egypt sounded the death-knell for Muslim political and military supremacy.

So let's abandon science and technology for 7th Century religion, people. It's the only way to Defend the Faith.

19 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:49:17pm

1. Insist on being ignorant, ensure that you have a tiny fraction of the creative intellectual activity in other communities.
2. Treat women as breeding machines so you have an expanding and impoverished population with unsocialized and resentful young males.
3. Watch your entire civilization and nations stagnate and become mired in poverty and misery, despite having Trillions of dollars flow through your coffers.
4. Export your unemployed people to more successful and tolerant neighbors.
5. Undermine them so they become miserable failures also.
6. Repeat as necessary.

20 livefreeor die  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:49:56pm

So if the radical Muslims are against evolution, will the moonbats be against evolution? But then they'll be agreeing with many conservatives. Here come the exploding heads in 5...4...3...

21 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:50:04pm

I imagine as the muslim population of europe continues to grow, so will the belief in muslim creationism. Will europe continue to capitulate to islamic education demands like they have concerning the Holocaust, or is science where europe will take a stand?

22 simonml  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:50:09pm

re: #19 lifeofthemind

1. Insist on being ignorant, ensure that you have a tiny fraction of the creative intellectual activity in other communities.
2. Treat women as breeding machines so you have an expanding and impoverished population with unsocialized and resentful young males.
3. Watch your entire civilization and nations stagnate and become mired in poverty and misery, despite having Trillions of dollars flow through your coffers.
4. Export your unemployed people to more successful and tolerant neighbors.
5. Undermine them so they become miserable failures also.
6. Repeat as necessary.

7. Profit?

23 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:51:28pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Ben Stein!

I like Ben generally. I just never have understood how science leads to mass murder. I don't even see how evolution leads to racist eugenics. If killing in the name of God is a perversion of religion (in most cases) then killing in the name of science is just the same (if that is indeed the justification some may have used). Just because people use religion or science for there abhorrent behavior, doesn't mean that religion or science are to blame. I will concede that many more people have fought and died in the name of God as opposed to, say, pi. Or mitochondria. Or even fluid dynamics. Amoeba's have a lot to answer for though.

24 tripletdad  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:51:48pm

Doesn't the extent of muslim education consist entirely of memorizing the Koran? I didn't think science was even in the curriculum.

25 livefreeor die  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:52:00pm

re: #19 lifeofthemind

Well said! I think that's as concise a synopsis of the whole problem as I've ever seen. I'm going to print this out and give it to my sons to read.

26 kevinmumaw  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:52:35pm

re: #13 Racer X

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

That is my desktop background now, replacing the upcoming James Bond film

27 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:53:01pm

re: #13 Racer X

The New Yorker is way to the left on the political spectrum, but Hillary is their candidate. There was a New Yorker cartoon after 9/11 depicting Bin Laden riding in a New York subway car. It, of course, was mocking the Bush Administration's inability to capture him.

Like all great satire, this one will have legs. And Obama's inability to laugh at it will kill him. He utterly lacks a sense of humor. Great ready for the Presidency, Hillary!

28 lawhawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:53:26pm

This is first time hearing about this guy and his particular movement. Definitely need to read up on it, but some of the stuff definitely seems right out of the Twilight Zone.

And as for where the money comes from, we're going to have to play follow the money. In his instance, there might be some chicanery and criminality. Imagine my shock.

Throw in Holocaust denial too. Lovely.

29 simonml  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:53:39pm

re: #24 tripletdad

Doesn't the extent of muslim education consist entirely of memorizing the Koran? I didn't think science was even in the curriculum.

The necessary force to cut off an infidel's head is directly proportional to the integral with the limits of... uh... nevermind

30 livefreeor die  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:54:41pm

re: #24 tripletdad

Doesn't the extent of muslim education consist entirely of memorizing the Koran? I didn't think science was even in the curriculum.

I think there are dispensations for vaccinations, modern medicine, and explosives.

31 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:55:06pm

re: #6 Macker

Muslim Creationism seems to be an oxymoron to me.

Not really, it is their creation story, which is I believe, Biblical creation. I don't know if they have added any flavoring to it specific to Mo's desires or not.

32 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:55:26pm

Well at least one thing I noted in here has some fact to it, "One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11. In a piece of overt symbolic theatre the book’s creators marked the anniversary of 9/11 last year by sending the Atlas to a large number of Protestant priests across Europe. The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united." It was Hitlers belief in Darwinism that propelled him to the "final solution", in fact he is quoted as as referring to Darwin to prove the Aryan race was superior....
that being said, with all the fossils in evidence in thousands of drawers in hundred of museums, have you ever seen a solid family tree of ANY species? Where are all the transition fossils? You would think they would have a solid set of at least one species in the multitudes that they have discover and cataloged over the last two hundred years or so....

33 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:57:00pm

re: #16 nyc redneck

we're going backwards.
something is really wrong.

Are we distracted?

34 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:57:00pm
35 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:59:05pm

re: #32 Marvo76

...........Where are all the transition fossils?.............

Really? You ask this? Go to the front page and scroll down one or two posts....

36 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:59:09pm

re: #32 Marvo76

It was Hitlers belief in Darwinism that propelled him to the "final solution", in fact he is quoted as as referring to Darwin to prove the Aryan race was superior....

This is absolutely false.

37 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 6:59:44pm

re: #6 Macker

About the only thing they have, uh, created are splodey dopes.

38 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:00:51pm

In fact Europe has seen something similar to this before.

In the 16th century Spain conquered the New World and incredible wealth flowed into the Spanish treasury. Despite initial intellectual flowering in the Renaissance and Humanist period the Counter reformation effectively ended any free inquiry in Spain. The result was the impoverishment of the old aristocracy who were tied to landed wealth and the ruination of the economy at large due to uncontrolled inflation. By the 17th century Spain was unable to overwhelm the Dutch and were soon well on their way to becoming a backwater.

39 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:01:00pm

The Dark Ages are returning.

40 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:01:28pm

the rop'er creationists are interested, mostly, in destroying western culture and spreading islam.
are they trying to bring us down to their stone age existence?
do they think it will be easier to subdue us if WE start living in caves.
that could be the worst mistake they make.

one thing is sure they see the creationist christians as a mark. infidels.
who will be dealt with.

41 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:02:14pm

re: #20 livefreeor die

So if the radical Muslims are against evolution, will the moonbats be against evolution? But then they'll be agreeing with many conservatives. Here come the exploding heads in 5...4...3...

It doesn't fit their worldview, it doesn't exist.

42 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:02:44pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Where are all the transition fossils?

Which specific "transition fossil" do you find to be missing?

43 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:02:54pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Give it up, Marvo. Science isn't an attack on G-d, your religion, or Jesus. By discovering antibiotics and harnessing electricity, modern science and technology probably has saved your life repeatedly.

So be grateful both to your Lord, and to scientists. They're the ones who has teased out the patterns and subtle order in the universe by patient observation and experimentation. Do those patterns mean that G-d exists? Follow your faith on that point, but don't call it science.

44 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:02:59pm

re: #1 coquimbojoe

They will bow to this....

I'm afraid you may be right. The Europeans know that when Christians are upset, it's amusing because they know that the Christians won't do anything past writing letters to the editor. If, on the other hand, Muslims are upset it's not amusing. They know that , if provoked, the Muslims will do something. They know it so deeply that even to speculate out loud about what that something may be brings cries of censure and accusations of islamophobia.

Is there any hope for Europe?

45 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:03:16pm

re: #33 experiencedtraveller

re: #16 nyc redneck

It happens sometimes.

We are still not collectively smart or powerful enough to insure it won't happen.

46 Spiny Norman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:03:57pm

re: #13 Racer X

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

Operation Chaos continues.

47 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:04:18pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

Islamic Creation's Contradiction.

Well, I guess they did add some Islamic Seasoning to the mix.

Islam seems to have this compulsion to changes things just a little bit so they can point out how 'wrong' everyone else is.

48 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:04:27pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Many eugenicists have tried to put this on Darwin. However most eugenics ideas seemed to have come from his cousin Francis Galton. Darwin is just a convenient boogeyman.

49 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:04:43pm

re: #44 ErnieG

I'm afraid you may be right. The Europeans know that when Christians are upset, it's amusing because they know that the Christians won't do anything past writing letters to the editor. If, on the other hand, Muslims are upset it's not amusing. They know that , if provoked, the Muslims will do something. They know it so deeply that even to speculate out loud about what that something may be brings cries of censure and accusations of islamophobia.

Is there any hope for Europe?

I believe if they stop trying to be so correct, they might actually straighten things out and shake off the stupor they seem to be in....but I could be wrong.

50 Josephine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:04:51pm

re: #30 livefreeor die

I think there are dispensations for vaccinations, modern medicine, and explosives.

I think I read a while ago about some imams who were telling Muslims that inoculations were an evil plot against them and this was causing a problem. Darn, I can't remember where this took place!

51 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:05:09pm

The first ding award goes to Genexer.

52 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:05:12pm

It's just astounding to me that there are creationists so locked into their belief system that they can't even see anything wrong with joining forces with Harun Yahya.

But there it is.

53 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:06:16pm

re: #52 Charles

I guess it's because evolution directly contradicts Holy Scripture, regardless of faith.

54 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:06:16pm

re: #23 coquimbojoe

Something happened to him. I'm not sure what but something happened.

55 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:07:28pm

re: #52 Charles

"Who dines with the Devil should have a long spoon."

56 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:07:42pm

re: #13 Racer X

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

OMG that is HILARIOUS!

57 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:07:43pm

re: #50 JosephineSomewhere in Sub-Saharan Africa. They were telling people not to get shots for measels, or some other damn nasty bug. Said it was a plot to poison them, IIRC.

58 Spiny Norman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:07:43pm

re: #38 lifeofthemind

In fact Europe has seen something similar to this before.

In the 16th century Spain conquered the New World and incredible wealth flowed into the Spanish treasury. Despite initial intellectual flowering in the Renaissance and Humanist period the Counter reformation effectively ended any free inquiry in Spain. The result was the impoverishment of the old aristocracy who were tied to landed wealth and the ruination of the economy at large due to uncontrolled inflation. By the 17th century Spain was unable to overwhelm the Dutch and were soon well on their way to becoming a backwater.

And left huge swaths of intractable poverty in their colonial wake, while the English "heretics" left behind Modern Civilization.

59 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:08:02pm

re: #52 Charles

Dr Duane Gish and Dr Kenneth Cumming, two world-renowned scientists from the Institute for Creation Research in the USA are authorities on biochemistry and paleontology. They demonstrated with substantial proof that the theory of evolution has no validity whatsoever. During the conference, one of the most esteemed Turkish scientists today, Dr Cevat Babuna illustrated the miracles in each phase of a human being's creation with a slide show that shook the "coincidence hypothesis" of evolution to its roots.
....
Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, "Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?", Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design.

Dr Edward Boudreaux: In his speech, "The Design in Chemistry", Edward Boudreaux, a professor of chemistry at the University of New Orleans, noted that some chemical elements must have been deliberately arranged by creation in order for life to exist.

Professor Carl Fliermans: A widely-known scientist in the USA and a microbiology professor at Indiana University conducting a research on "the neutralisation of chemical wastes by bacteria" supported by the US Department of Defence, Carl Fliermans refuted evolutionist claims at the microbiological level.


Lots of Americans present.

60 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:08:43pm

re: #52 Charles

It's just astounding to me that there are creationists so locked into their belief system that they can't even see anything wrong with joining forces with Harun Yahya.

But there it is.

Faith. You can't reason someone out of a position they weren't reasoned into. I have made it clear in the past that I am very religious and believe in a creator, I just don't see why God couldn't have planned for evolution to happen? I believe that all truth comes from God. To deny scientific proof of things, like transitional fossils, would in my mind, put me against God's truth.

61 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:08:54pm

re: #43 quickjustice

I think Marvo76 (among others) registered here for the sole purpose of being able to throw in his/her .02 on this topic.

62 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:08:58pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Where are all the transition fossils?


Heh.

63 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:05pm

re: #26 kevinmumaw


You know McCain is laughing his ass off about it!

64 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:15pm

re: #53 laZardo

I guess it's because evolution directly contradicts Holy Scripture, regardless of faith.

So does the heliocentric solar system, but we have put that behind us. Galileo wasn't so lucky, though.

65 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:19pm

re: #13 Racer X

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

Rotating Title?

66 Spiny Norman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:25pm

re: #53 laZardo

I guess it's because evolution directly contradicts a simplistic, literalist view of Holy Scripture, regardless of faith.

Fixed.

67 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:49pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Where are the transition fossils?

You haven't been paying attention, they found three this month alone. New fossils are found almost every day.

As far as the Steinian blood libel on the holocaust, just like him you are full of so much shit, besides that you aren't following your leader's Dembski's orders, please go read his DI blog for the new strategy.

68 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:52pm

re: #53 laZardo

I guess it's because evolution directly contradicts Holy Scripture, regardless of faith.

It doesn't, but try to tell the extremists that.

69 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:54pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Heh.

Killgore, did you steal them again?

70 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:09:56pm

re: #53 laZardo

Darwin's wife was a devout Christian, and his research caused her a great deal of pain. He, in turn, was devoted to her, and suffered for his science and his principles. In his personal life, Charles Darwin was a good and decent gentleman.

71 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:10:24pm

Islamic Creationism In Turkey

Perhaps the most striking feature of this example of Turkish creationism is the extent of almost total dependence on Christian creationists. Perhaps this should be expected, as Turkish intellectual life tends to lag behind the West in general. The weak state of Turkish science (Turkey has been reported to have 12 thousand scientists, the most of any Islamic country, said to have a total of only 45 thousand overall, out of a population of about a billion (Yildirim, 1993)) may have a connection with the prevalence of imported pseudoscientific beliefs. But probably the major factor is that a segment of society has more recently felt the need and the possibility to respond to the pressures of secularism, and not by retreating into a traditionalist isolation. Islamic fundamentalism, like its Christian cousin, is a product of modernity in its very reaction to it.

Christian creationism was there, accessible, and easily adaptable. The religions are remarkably similar, as far as the Creation mythology is concerned. Differences exist between the literal creation stories of the Qur'an and Genesis, but these are details that very rarely come up in the creationist literature, if at all. The usual vague "creation model" is fully compatible with Islam.

This is from 1994- looks like things haven't changed much.

72 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:10:38pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

Heh.

Heh, indeed.

73 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:08pm

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

I'm ransoming them for Sheckles. I have a Zionist conspiracy to finance.

74 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:09pm

re: #48 Mars Needs Neocons

And *itler was quite the fan of eugenics.

That says it all.

75 Josephine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:22pm

re: #57 pingjockey

Ah, thank you.

76 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:24pm
Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, "Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?", Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design

There is no such place.

77 Macker  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:11:39pm

re: #31 CyanSnowHawk

Perhaps an explanation is in order. Muslims worship Stan (and not Allah, who is probably one of his Demons). And Stan certainly didn't create anything which is attributable to his former Boss.

78 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:12:13pm

it is astounding that christians would align w/ rop'ers against the modern secular world and the scientific community who would never cut their heads off.

79 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:12:23pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

There is no such place.

He intelligently designed it.

80 garycooper  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:13:52pm

re: #20 livefreeor die

So if the radical Muslims are against evolution, will the moonbats be against evolution? But then they'll be agreeing with many conservatives. Here come the exploding heads in 5...4...3...

It's funny, because it's true. :)

Someone already pointed out, it's another moronic-convergence. It's becoming a regular "5-Corners"-intersection down there, isn't it? Better hire some more traffic cops.

81 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:13:52pm

Europe proves that if a political vacuum is created, eventually the radicals will try to fill it.

82 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:00pm

re: #78 nyc redneck

it is astounding that christians would align w/ rop'ers against the modern secular world and the scientific community who would never cut their heads off.

Except for perhaps a biopsy or for an anatomy class. I think it needed to be pointed out.

83 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:26pm

re: #79 lifeofthemind

He intelligently designed it.

I like what he did with the curtains.

84 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:43pm

re: #77 Macker

Stan as in Stan and Ollie?

85 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:44pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

There is no such place.

You mean they're resorting to lying? I'm shocked! ;)

86 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:14:57pm

re: #74 NY Nana

And *itler was quite the fan of eugenics.

That says it all.


Yes he was and as I've said all along eugenics existed well before Darwin:

In 1876, Ernst Haeckel had discussed the selective infanticide policy of the Greek city of ancient Sparta.[3] In his Second Book, which was kept unpublished during Nazi Germany, Hitler also praised Sparta, adding that this was because he considered Sparta to be the first "Völkisch State," and endorsed what he perceived to be an early eugenics treatment of deformed children:

Sparta must be regarded as the first Völkisch State. The exposure of the sick, weak, deformed children, in short, their destruction, was more decent and in truth a thousand times more humane than the wretched insanity of our day which preserves the most pathological subject, and indeed at any price, and yet takes the life of a hundred thousand healthy children in consequence of birth control or through abortions, in order subsequently to breed a race of degenerates burdened with illnesses.[4][5]

87 elrushbuni  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:15:05pm

The only reason Muslim creationism is on the rise in Europe is the same reason why Muslim religious preference is on the rise in Europe = population. May as well kiss Europa goodbye.

88 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:15:24pm

re: #66 Spiny Norman

It doesn't take a "simplistic" view to notice two stories of creation within the Book of Genesis. (Gen 2:4-7, Gen 1:8-27).

re: #70 quickjustice

Good manners transcend most faiths (see Hitchens). Besides which, being a gentleman was proper in his society.

89 Josephine  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:15:40pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

Faked credentials?

90 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:16:07pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout


Dr Duane Gish and Dr Kenneth Cumming, two world-renowned scientists from the Institute for Creation Research in the USA are authorities on biochemistry and paleontology. They demonstrated with substantial proof that the theory of evolution has no validity whatsoever. During the conference, one of the most esteemed Turkish scientists today, Dr Cevat Babuna illustrated the miracles in each phase of a human being's creation with a slide show that shook the "coincidence hypothesis" of evolution to its roots.
....
Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, "Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?", Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design.

Dr Edward Boudreaux: In his speech, "The Design in Chemistry", Edward Boudreaux, a professor of chemistry at the University of New Orleans, noted that some chemical elements must have been deliberately arranged by creation in order for life to exist.

Professor Carl Fliermans: A widely-known scientist in the USA and a microbiology professor at Indiana University conducting a research on "the neutralisation of chemical wastes by bacteria" supported by the US Department of Defence, Carl Fliermans refuted evolutionist claims at the microbiological level.


Lots of Americans present.

Those all sound like irreducible complexity arguments on the surface. They also seem to misunderstand the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics to some degree.

91 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:16:16pm

re: #58 Spiny Norman

The Spanish obsession with gold also played a role. Because the gold mines of the Americas enriched the Spanish treasury, gold abounded there in quantities previously unheard of.

And what did this cause? Huge inflation, because Spanish economy could not produce good and services fast enough to stabilize the value of the gold! Too much gold chasing too few goods. A classic lesson in monetary policy.

But of course, economics is a science that shouldn't be studied when you can focus exclusively on the Bible and the Koran.

92 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:16:34pm
93 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:16:35pm

re: #85 Sharmuta

You mean they're resorting to lying? I'm shocked! ;)

LOL.

Actually, there are a couple with similar names, but there is no "Southern Louisiana University".

94 Macker  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:17:11pm

re: #84 lifeofthemind

Not Just No but HELL NO! Got the hint?

95 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:17:30pm

re: #89 Josephine

Faked credentials?

Could just be an accidental misnaming - there are similarly named places, but none with that name.

96 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:17:32pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

There is no such place.

But maybe they mistranslated a scrambled acronym? LSU?


[Link: www.letsgetthin.com...]

97 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:04pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout
Here he is, they meant LSU, but he's now a 'popular speaker.'
[Link: www.wordoftruth.net...]

98 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:10pm

re: #43 quickjustice

Give it up, Marvo. Science isn't an attack on G-d, your religion, or Jesus. By discovering antibiotics and harnessing electricity, modern science and technology probably has saved your life repeatedly.

So be grateful both to your Lord, and to scientists. They're the ones who has teased out the patterns and subtle order in the universe by patient observation and experimentation. Do those patterns mean that G-d exists? Follow your faith on that point, but don't call it science.

I am grateful, but questions abound, such as finding trackable DNA in supposedly million year old fossilized bones, and the masses of animal fossil remains which are attributed to eons but could have come from a connection to the great flood. Why else would they be concentrated in certain areas and massed as if swept up together in a large mudflow?
Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's... How could they have done the forensics from a few bones that we do today, in order to come up with the shapes? I take neither "theory" at face value, I find enuff questions about both, to label them both theories and not fact.

99 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:18pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Professor Michael P. Girouard: In his speech, "Is it Possible for Life to Emerge by Coincidences?", Michael Girouard, a professor of biology at Southern Louisiana University, explained through various examples the complexity of proteins, the basic units of life, and concluded that they could only have come into existence as a result of skilled design.

Looks like Dr. Girouard has a side business where he will "Turn your body into a Fat Burning Machine!"

Credibility.

100 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:42pm

re: #85 Sharmuta

You mean they're resorting to lying? I'm shocked! ;)

I can find out (will have to be tomorrow), but I can find out if this guy really is a university professor anywhere in the State of La. I'll check it out and let ya know.

101 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:18:56pm

Mentioned this in a comment last week:
The threat from creationism to the rational teaching of biology (1/2)
Excerpts:

Even those who are aware of the creationist threat to the rational teaching of biology in the USA often fail to realize that in recent years the problem has spread far beyond the USA, driven in some countries not by Christian fundamentalism but by Islamic fundamentalism.
[snip]
Turkey may well constitute the most important source of creationist propaganda outside the USA, and it certainly explains much of the success of creationists in attracting support from Muslim students in the UK, Germany and France. Large meetings in modern congress centres with high attendance (Anonymous, 1998) illustrate the high degree of financial support, as does extensive publication of creationist texts (Anonymous, 2005): the book Evolution Deceit is available not only in Turkish and English, but also in French, German, Spanish, Italian, Russian and Arabic, and circulated in many countries, definitely including Argentina, and possibly others in Latin America (Anonymous, 2007c). Recently the profusely illustrated and expensively produced Atlas of Creation from the same source (Anonymous, 2007d) has been distributed in several languages free of charge to teachers, schools and universities in different countries.
[snip]
... in addition, outside the USA it is no longer true that the major threat is coming from Christian fundamentalism, as a substantial amount of propaganda is now produced in Turkey and distributed to Muslims in Western Europe and in many countries elsewhere.

Here's the entire report as a PDF file.

102 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:19:17pm
103 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:19:25pm

re: #92 taxfreekiller

I'm not ready to throw out the 2/4 year revolution through the ballot box just yet.

But we need leaders and they got a 200 year head start.

104 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:20:35pm

I'm off to bed but as I wrote to Charles earlier, it's bad news when we start teaching religious theory in the science classroom. Europe better watch herself or some imam is going to be teaching that the world is flat. I'm an Evangelical Christian, I believe in a creator, I believe in evolution, I don't believe in the "young earth" theory, and I certainly don't want ANYONE's faith taught in the classroom unless the school specifically relates to that faith i.e. Catholic school etc. Please leave the teaching of faith to the parents and leave the teaching of science to the scientists.

105 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:20:50pm

Yep, he's a quack:

Dr. Girouard was born and raised in Chalmette, LA. He graduated from Chalmette High School as Valedictorian and was student council president. After high school, he attended Southeastern Louisiana University and earned a BS in Chemistry with minors in Mathematics and Physics. His academic success followed him through college and he graduated second in the School of Science and Technology and was awarded the Outstanding Graduating Chemistry Senior award.

Dr. Girouard’s love for science and inquisitive mind took him to Louisiana State University Medical Center in 1980, and he received postgraduate training at Ochsner Foundation Hospital in Internal Medicine and Anesthesiology. In 1981 he started his weight loss practice in Louisiana.
Dr. Girouard had been overweight most of life. When he was 6 years old, he was so overweight that his parents had to have a communion suit tailor made for him. He lost weight in junior high, going from 185 pounds to 110 in one year. Twelve years ago he lost 100 pounds going from 265 to 170. He has maintained this weight since then. Due to his own personal battles with weight, he has a genuine compassion for others dealing with these same issues. This care and concern became a mission to find a treatment program to help others manage their weight.

106 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:20:54pm

re: #98 Marvo76

Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's...

Linky?

107 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:20:55pm

re: #33 experiencedtraveller

Are we distracted?

a lot of us aren't.

108 livfreeordie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:00pm

As to the money source my educated GUESS is
The Fethullah Gülen Movement
In northeastern PA universities the Turks put on lavish events...oh so sweet and "ecumenical"...beware...

109 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:00pm
110 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:01pm

Creationism is a "flavor of the week" and has readily become a tool for those who seek to try and force their influence/ideas/beliefs/whatever else fits here on everyone that doesn't conform to their train of thought. This reason alone should be enough to raise the alarm that it isn't a good mix, especially to those Christians who think that this is a good way to get religion back into schools. You should worry if you start to believe the same thing that wahabism believes in. RED FLAG!

111 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:04pm

re: #98 Marvo76

I am grateful, but questions abound, such as finding trackable DNA in supposedly million year old fossilized bones, and the masses of animal fossil remains which are attributed to eons but could have come from a connection to the great flood. Why else would they be concentrated in certain areas and massed as if swept up together in a large mudflow?

Ever hear of Chicxulub. Look it up.

112 Paul  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:15pm

An aid for people who think that Earth is more than 6,500 years old: Paleomaps

113 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:23pm

re: #98 Marvo76

...Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's...

Dude. I just took a drug test so I am cool, what is it you are on that leads you to say this? I want some. Show a link to cave art with dinosaurs. We are very big on documenting things here. Silly assertions get trampled (hence the Discovery Institute's beatings here).

114 Jetpilot1101  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:21:28pm

re: #98 Marvo76

Please learn to spell.

115 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:22:02pm

re: #98 Marvo76

Are you a fan of Henry Morris?

116 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:22:06pm

We got the bottle
you got the cup
c'mon let's get.....
Brass Monkey

117 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:22:37pm

re: #109 taxfreekiller

[Link: www.blowoutcongress.com...]

Interesting, I've had that thought myself a few times.

118 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:23:27pm

re: #113 coquimbojoe

...Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's...

Ok, linky please. You're in my territory now. Light-sabre's drawn.

119 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:23:38pm

re: #96 Thanos

re: #97 jaunte

I can find out, probably by tomorrow.

I'm not sure they meant LSU. They may have meant Southern Univ. Or they could have meant Southeastern La Univ or Southwestern LA Univ.

Or maybe that's not accurate at all.

120 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:23:54pm

re: #94 Macker

Not Just No but HELL NO! Got the hint?

Free country, personally I'd rather trust education policy to Stan and Ollie.

121 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:24:44pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

No actually we found the guy, he runs a fat burn clinic, see the link up thread.

122 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:25:47pm

re: #98 Marvo76

I'll keep this reply brief. If the Bible is true, then G-d exists. And if the New Testament is true, then Jesus is Meshiach, the Messiah. And if all of that is true, then your sins are forgiven, you are saved, and you're going to a Heaven without 72 virgins, except for the nuns who will rap your knuckles if you misbehave!

And the dinosaurs have nothing to do with any of this.

123 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:26:29pm
124 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:26:42pm

re: #119 reine.de.tout

It looks from the links like he's been doing creation science speeches since 1988, while operating a weight-loss clinic.

125 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:03pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Ok, linky please. You're in my territory now. Light-sabre's drawn.

I was quoting Marvo 76.

126 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:04pm

re: #109 taxfreekiller

Need to discuss this at length in an open thread at a later time. This has been bugging me on several levels.

127 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:24pm

re: #122 quickjustice

I'll keep this reply brief. If the Bible is true, then G-d exists. And if the New Testament is true, then Jesus is Meshiach, the Messiah. And if all of that is true, then your sins are forgiven, you are saved, and you're going to a Heaven without 72 virgins, except for the nuns who will rap your knuckles if you misbehave!

And the dinosaurs have nothing to do with any of this.

The Obama's planning on suing.

128 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:43pm

re: #125 coquimbojoe

I was quoting Marvo 76.

I was addressing that to Marvo76, I think? Sorry.

129 snowcrash  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:43pm

re: #116 Killgore Trout
That's my ringtone. Get's everyones attention.

130 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:27:45pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Ok, linky please. You're in my territory now. Light-sabre's drawn.

I think the links are in Matrvo's ass.

131 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:03pm
132 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:06pm

re: #128 Walter L. Newton

I was addressing that to Marvo76, I think? Sorry.

S'OK!

133 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:29pm

re: #125 coquimbojoe

I was quoting Marvo 76.

Oh, I see now. My mistake.

134 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:30pm

re: #106 Fat Jolly Penguin

Linky?

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

135 Timbre  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:32pm

Only slightly O/T:
"Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said Iran would "cut off the hands" of any foreign enemy that attacked the country, the state-run Islamic Republic News Agency reported.

"Before the enemies can put their fingers on the trigger, the armed forces will cut off their hands," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying." (FOX News)

I wonder if Israel is America's hands or if America is Israel's? Maybe the answer depends if you are a right-brain paranoid lunatic or a left-brained paranoid lunatic...

136 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:34pm

re: #77 Macker

Perhaps an explanation is in order. Muslims worship Stan (and not Allah, who is probably one of his Demons). And Stan certainly didn't create anything which is attributable to his former Boss.

Love your avatar.
I understand why you made your first statement in light of this explanation.

137 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:28:45pm

re: #123 buzzsawmonkey

They'd be terrible at teaching science; all their work violates the Laws of Motion. They consistently disprove "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction," since for every action in their films there is an unequal and overwhelming reaction.

Yes they would be better at National Security. We must combat the evil lawyer inspired and UN championed doctrine of "proportionate response." When we act it should be a massive and disproportionate response.

138 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:29:09pm

re: #130 coquimbojoe

I think the links are in Matrvo's ass.

Wonder which paleontologist would dig there?

139 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:29:13pm

re: #114 Jetpilot1101

Please learn to spell.

I thought I used spell check, my bad...

140 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:29:33pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Walter, I think he's confused. Nat Geo had a special about cave art in the Sahara, but it was hippos, elephants, giraffes, etc... which hadn't been there for 5k years. When the Sahara was wetter.

141 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:10pm

re: #124 jaunte

It looks from the links like he's been doing creation science speeches since 1988, while operating a weight-loss clinic.

Well - the place you found said this about him:


Dr. Girouard has presently resigned his medical practice to participate in full time Christian Service, specializing in the area of biblical apologetics.

But said nothing about working as a professor of biology anywhere.

And Thanos found the website for his medical practice; why would he have a website for a medical practice if he resigned it to participate full-time in Christian service?

Not adding up.

142 Timbre  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:14pm

re: #138 lone_wolf_in_illinois

Wonder which paleontologist would dig there?

A paleoproctologist...

143 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:16pm

There is no evidence, zero, to support a great global flood. Local, yes- global, no. None.

144 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:36pm

re: #76 reine.de.tout

There is no such place.

With the help of Google:

Dr. Michael Girouard is a medical physician and graduate of LSU Medical Center. Dr. Girouard lectured with the Institute for Creation Research from 1988-1990 where he served as Assistant Professor of Biology.

There are several audio tapes, The Evolution Lie, dating from 2004, available on the internet. (I'll spare you the link.)

A Dr. Michael Girouard now practices at the Weight Loss & Wellness Clinic, Huntersville, NC.

145 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:30:54pm

re: #115 Sharmuta

Are you a fan of Henry Morris?

that name doesn't ring a bell...My son gets the creation science magazine, and also has the book "tornado in a junkyard" which debunks a lot of the Darwin info...

146 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:31:36pm

re: #144 ErnieG

See: re: #141 reine.de.tout

147 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:31:44pm

re: #134 Marvo76

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

Now there's a hoot, whoever put that together has been cribbing from von danniken and doesn't know a dino from an anteater.

148 Annar  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:31:47pm

Europe is ripe for the taking and the fall may happen even faster than many suspect. The disarmament that is provided by the blind acceptance of multiculturalism and political correctness will permit a relatively weak enemy to impose its will across the continent with little resistance.

At least they'll have those fancy books to burn for heat as the new dark age descends from Andalusia to New Turkey (Germany).

149 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:31:50pm

re: #127 Fat Jolly Penguin

I think of Obama as the Moonies think of their savior-- whom they claim to be Jesus' younger, more successful brother.

150 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:32:10pm

re: #86 Thanos

Yes he was and as I've said all along eugenics existed well before Darwin:

In 1876, Ernst Haeckel had discussed the selective infanticide policy of the Greek city of ancient Sparta.[3] In his Second Book, which was kept unpublished during Nazi Germany, Hitler also praised Sparta, adding that this was because he considered Sparta to be the first "Völkisch State," and endorsed what he perceived to be an early eugenics treatment of deformed children:

Sparta must be regarded as the first Völkisch State. The exposure of the sick, weak, deformed children, in short, their destruction, was more decent and in truth a thousand times more humane than the wretched insanity of our day which preserves the most pathological subject, and indeed at any price, and yet takes the life of a hundred thousand healthy children in consequence of birth control or through abortions, in order subsequently to breed a race of degenerates burdened with illnesses.[4][5]

And you have been right all along. I did not know that it went back that far...

151 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:32:24pm

re: #134 Marvo76

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

To those who would think of clicking this - major resources for this site include "Dr. Dino" Kent Hovind, and ICR . . .

152 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:33:00pm

re: #135 Timbre

One of our fingers looks like this.

That's a pinky.

153 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:33:17pm

re: #86 Thanos

...Madness!

/because a 300 joke is required...

154 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:33:24pm

re: #144 ErnieG


Dr. Girouard lectured with the Institute for Creation Research from 1988-1990 where he served as Assistant Professor of Biology.

Well. That's certainly not the place the Evolution Deceit website said he was from.

155 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:33:30pm

re: #140 pingjockey

Walter, I think he's confused. Nat Geo had a special about cave art in the Sahara, but it was hippos, elephants, giraffes, etc... which hadn't been there for 5k years. When the Sahara was wetter.

Permanent low over the Atlas mountains showed up about 2,000 years ago. Like The Man Who Came to Dinner, it just doesn't want to leave. There were tropical species found in North Africa in Roman times.

156 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:34:02pm

if I don't reply right away, I am not dodging anyone, just going to step away from the machine for a bit...cold brew, warm shower, clean clothes and all...

157 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:34:15pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

I'm ransoming them for Sheckles. I have a Zionist conspiracy to finance.

/Busy, busy, busy!

158 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:35:05pm

re: #145 Marvo76

Oh! So your son is reading magazines by groups that are in league with islamic creationists. How nice.

159 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:35:10pm

re: #134 Marvo76

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

Again. Dude. What drugs? That. Site. Was. Crap.

160 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:35:31pm

re: #146 reine.de.tout

See: re: #141 reine.de.tout

I know. When I was Googling and drafting my post, a bunch of people beat me to it.

161 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:35:39pm

re: #147 Thanos

Now there's a hoot, whoever put that together has been cribbing from von danniken and doesn't know a dino from an anteater.

how many pages have you looked at? I know some are a bit suspect, but others are not in my book...go thru the list and then tell me, I already looked at all of them at one time or another...

162 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:36:02pm

re: #150 NY Nana

And you have been right all along. I did not know that it went back that far...

If you read up on anthropology you'll find that a lot of tribal societies practiced eugenics, including the "noble savage" Amerinds.

When you put tribal + nationalism + socialism together you are bound to get genocide.

163 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:36:48pm

re: #73 Killgore Trout

I'm ransoming them for Sheckles. I have a Zionist conspiracy to finance.

Where is my check? Late again!

164 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:37:00pm

Gotta go. Enjoy your evening folks!

165 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:17pm

re: #131 buzzsawmonkey

Now there's a business model. Create fatheads, then help them take off the fat.

It's a legal version of a glazier breaking windows with a BB gun.

166 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:24pm

re: #159 coquimbojoe

Again. Dude. What drugs? That. Site. Was. Crap.

by the way, why the snide comments? Can you not get your point across without trying to belittle folks? Keep the debate on a "friendly" level, I have kept an open mind and I don't shoot the messenger, only the message, you might try it sometime....it makes for a more enjoyable debate...

167 Pullus Iulius  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:29pm

re: #134 Marvo76

The Ico Stones? Please. Are crystal skulls next? Because they, like Basilo Uschaya and his fraudulent Ico Stones, have been proven to be lies. My Savior is, and exists in the realm of, Truth. He is poorly served by fraud.

168 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:30pm

re: #161 Marvo76

how many pages have you looked at? I know some are a bit suspect, but others are not in my book...go thru the list and then tell me, I already looked at all of them at one time or another...

I looked through enough to see that there are outright lies there. What happened to "thou shall not bear false witness?"

169 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:36pm

Gonna reboot the work comp, updates just finished. BRB.

170 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:38:52pm

re: #140 pingjockey

Walter, I think he's confused. Nat Geo had a special about cave art in the Sahara, but it was hippos, elephants, giraffes, etc... which hadn't been there for 5k years. When the Sahara was wetter.

His link has some info on the Palestrina Mosaic (circa 100 C.E), which appears to show two men battling a dinosaur like creature.

Most art experts, aware of the styles of animal renderings of this time, see that as a crocodile or a fish eating reptile of some sort.

But of course, the ID people are smarter than 200 years of art historians, ergo, it's a dino.

171 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:39:06pm
172 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:41:43pm

re: #171 ploome hineni

"reality is a problem and must be corrected."

173 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:42:14pm
174 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:42:30pm

re: #162 Thanos

I'd say it's more primitive than that. The poorer and more primitive the society, the more likely "excess" people (such as the handicapped, or infants that the family cannot feed) will be discarded to ensure the survival of the tribe.

The wealthier the society, the more likely compassion will be shown to handicapped people. I'd say that Judaism and Christianity also challenged the prevailing pagan culture on this point, making it a Jewish or Christian duty to give charity to the poor.

175 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:42:38pm

re: #171 ploome hineni

..and the earth is flat?

europe seems to be flattening out.

176 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:05pm
177 lifeofthemind  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:15pm

Good night ladies.

178 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:33pm
179 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:50pm
180 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:43:55pm

re: #177 lifeofthemind

Good night ladies.

"Good night Sir!"

"Hit it sweetheart."

181 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:20pm

re: #134 Marvo76

[Link: www.s8int.com...] it has several different links on that page that will come up with pictures of the representations

Couldn't those be misinterpretations of the artists' intent? They might be stylized renderings of real animals, or they might depict scenes out of that particular culture's mythology. Without the context, it's hard to tell.

182 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:24pm

re: #166 Marvo76

by the way, why the snide comments? Can you not get your point across without trying to belittle folks? Keep the debate on a "friendly" level, I have kept an open mind and I don't shoot the messenger, only the message, you might try it sometime....it makes for a more enjoyable debate...

Because you come to the discussion ignorant with 'dubious' (your word) sources. You have ignored the science posted of this site. Your arguments make you silly and lack any weight or truth. I rarely belittle people, but you are spewing crap here that doesn't lend itself to debate, rather, in my opinion, only derision. Keep it up though, your ignorance and credulity stands as a warning to many.

And I am a believer in God and the Earth as His creation.

183 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:45pm

Here is what Marvo76 fails to mention, or that the material he has read fails to mention...

"The Greek letters above the reptilian animal spell out the word: KROKODILOPARDALIS which is literally Crocodile-Leopard."

Typical of this sort or research, if you can even call it that. Leave out the facts that DON'T support your theory.

Lions and tigers and Crocodiles, oh my.

184 Timbre  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:47pm

re: #152 unclassifiable

I'm not a "glass parking lot" guy, but sometimes I think Ahmadinejihad need the great-great grandson of this fat boy descending upon his fatheadquarters.

185 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:44:50pm
186 coquimbojoe  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:45:11pm

re: #182 coquimbojoe

Because you come to the discussion ignorant with 'dubious' (your word) sources. You have ignored the science posted of this site. Your arguments make you silly and lack any weight or truth. I rarely belittle people, but you are spewing crap here that doesn't lend itself to debate, rather, in my opinion, only derision. Keep it up though, your ignorance and credulity stands as a warning to many.

And I am a believer in God and the Earth as His creation.

My Bad you said 'suspect'.

187 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:45:34pm

re: #170 Walter L. Newton

Ah, so.

188 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:46:09pm

re: #98 Marvo76

I am grateful, but questions abound, such as finding trackable DNA in supposedly million year old fossilized bones, and the masses of animal fossil remains which are attributed to eons but could have come from a connection to the great flood. Why else would they be concentrated in certain areas and massed as if swept up together in a large mudflow?
Further are dipictions of animals on cave drawings and in ancient egytion and middle eastern art which are clearly representations of what we now refer to as dino's... How could they have done the forensics from a few bones that we do today, in order to come up with the shapes? I take neither "theory" at face value, I find enuff questions about both, to label them both theories and not fact.

In cryptozoology we have some theories, but nothing we would try to put onto school kids. And once it's solved it becomes regular zoology and is no longer our purview.

189 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:46:14pm

re: #162 Thanos

If you read up on anthropology you'll find that a lot of tribal societies practiced eugenics, including the "noble savage" Amerinds.

When you put tribal + nationalism + socialism together you are bound to get genocide.

The genocide that occurred when I was a child has impacted my entire life...and so many choose, like they seem to have, re 9/11, to forget...and you know the rest...we are witnessing it, in a way, with the current election. The 'change' that is touted? May G-d help us.

Damn it, we cannot afford to forget.

Yesterday makes today and tomorrow.

190 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:46:40pm

re: #181 Fat Jolly Penguin

They looked like fauxroglyphics to me.

191 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:48:05pm

re: #178 ploome hineni

I however, am getting round

nail your bikini to the wall. that will help.

192 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:48:47pm

Mmmm, young troll meat. Better than veal.

Marvo76
Registered since: May 8, 2008 at 4:58 pm
No. of comments posted: 18
No. of links posted: 0

193 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:49:25pm
194 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:49:42pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

They looked like fauxroglyphics to me.

Beautiful Sharm, did you coin that?

195 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:49:57pm
196 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:50:15pm

re: #193 ploome hineni

its already glued to my ass


LMAO!

197 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:50:39pm

re: #168 Thanos

I looked through enough to see that there are outright lies there. What happened to "thou shall not bear false witness?"

like I said some are suspect, but not all. I try to sift all the different info and see what comes to the top and what gets thrown aside. I take nothing at face value, at least until I can do some investigating on my own. Creationism as well as Darwinism. One example about the falsification of Darwinism where facts were tossed out are the pictures of the embryo's supposedly looking similar until they were born. They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

198 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:50:51pm

re: #192 CyanSnowHawk

Mmmm, young troll meat. Better than veal.

Marvo76
Registered since: May 8, 2008 at 4:58 pm
No. of comments posted: 18
No. of links posted: 0

I searched the comments and he/she/it has predominately posted on the creationism posts other than the first night. 14/18 on creationism. Couldn't quite tell if it was troll meat yet or not. Might need to taste a sample first!

199 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:50:53pm

re: #190 Sharmuta

They looked like fauxroglyphics to me.

No, they are real. But just like we have ancient art that have elements in them that look like UFO's (they are angels), and many, many painting of Hell (did the artist take the tour bus or was he there on his own), people who are not experts in art or archeology see all sorts of things in these renderings.

200 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:51:08pm

re: #193 ploome hineni

its already glued to my ass

lol,
i'm only 10lbs. from taking my orange one down.

201 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:51:15pm

Marvo, this is disgusting fraud. They even have the Monterey bay plesiosaurus hoax pics linked. Records from the time show it was the partisially stripped carcass of a beaked whale that washed ashore in 1925.

202 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:51:20pm

re: #151 JamesWI

Thanks for the heads up.

203 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:52:05pm
204 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:52:42pm
205 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #176 ploome hineni

so, any messages while I was out?


The fat man walks alone and the eagle flies at midnight. Call Mr. Rove. He has goodies and treats.

206 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:52:49pm

re: #197 Marvo76

like I said some are suspect, but not all. I try to sift all the different info and see what comes to the top and what gets thrown aside. I take nothing at face value, at least until I can do some investigating on my own. Creationism as well as Darwinism. One example about the falsification of Darwinism where facts were tossed out are the pictures of the embryo's supposedly looking similar until they were born. They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Well, you didn't investigate the "dino" to hard, did you, since the word KROKODILOPARDALIS is sort of like a marquee on the painting.

Me thinks that your simply read something and ran with it.

207 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:53:29pm

re: #194 CyanSnowHawk

Yes- I did. Just now.

208 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:53:54pm
209 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:08pm

re: #201 Thanos

Marvo, this is disgusting fraud. They even have the Monterey bay plesiosaurus hoax pics linked. Records from the time show it was the partisially stripped carcass of a beaked whale that washed ashore in 1925.

I figured some other LGF'ers would get to the other paintings at that link. Thanks.

210 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:08pm

re: #192 CyanSnowHawk

Mmmm, young troll meat. Better than veal.

I would have to go with veal. Troll meat isn't kosher.

211 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:20pm

re: #151 JamesWI

To those who would think of clicking this - major resources for this site include "Dr. Dino" Kent Hovind, and ICR . . .

Well- his kid reads IRC magazines.

212 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:25pm
213 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:36pm

re: #118 Walter L. Newton

Ok, linky please. You're in my territory now. Light-sabre's drawn.

Forgive me if I'm wrong but the only depictions we have found that we could attribute to dinosaurs might be the Sirrush depicted on the Ishtar Gate. But even that design doesn't reflect any known type of dino, so it would have to fall into as of yet unknown animal.

214 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:54:57pm
215 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:09pm

re: #201 Thanos

Marvo, this is disgusting fraud. They even have the Monterey bay plesiosaurus hoax pics linked. Records from the time show it was the partisially stripped carcass of a beaked whale that washed ashore in 1925.

It's hard to tell the ID'ers from the Fortean folks now a days.

216 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:22pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

Heh, amateurs!

217 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:27pm

re: #182 coquimbojoe

Because you come to the discussion ignorant with 'dubious' (your word) sources. You have ignored the science posted of this site. Your arguments make you silly and lack any weight or truth. I rarely belittle people, but you are spewing crap here that doesn't lend itself to debate, rather, in my opinion, only derision. Keep it up though, your ignorance and credulity stands as a warning to many.

And I am a believer in God and the Earth as His creation.

and yet you are debating, as for crap, Darwinism is just as full of such bovine excretement, but to one who is going forward with the idea that "there is no reason to debate because you can't possibly be as smart as me or the sources of my info" You prove the old adage, "there are none so blind as those who wil not see" and yet I will be willing to look at any credible links you post and keep an open mind.....without derision

218 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:30pm

re: #147 Thanos

Now there's a hoot, whoever put that together has been cribbing from von danniken and doesn't know a dino from an anteater.

Good grief.

219 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:55:36pm

re: #201 Thanos

It also touts the old Abydos temple conspiracy theory.

On the left, another view of the relief on Egyptian temple wall at Abydos. "Dr. Ruth Hover, and her husband

took a trip to the pyramids and temples of Egypt. In the temple at Abydios, she photographed a wall panel in a section where an overlaying panel with Egyptian heiroglyphics crumbled and fell, revealing an older panel beneath it. This older panel, shown below, contains embossed images of what appear to be ancient aircraft."

What we do know about these images is that they are not fakes. By that we mean, that the images do actually exist. What is in question then is what do they mean--what do they represent? Egyptologists certainly think that they know what they mean. Their explanation includes the notion that it is a combined image of a later symbol over an older one.

Of course, those same experts can't adequately explain how the pyramids were built, how and why the Egyptian civiliztion appeared fully developed or why the oldest pyramid, the Great Pyramid was built with higher technology than later pyramids.

On these pages, because the items we're looking at usually aren't being scrutinized by science or experts, there is a liklihood that some objects will turn out to have fairly straightforward explanations. This could be the case here. However, undeniably we have what nearly 100% of people would recognize as an advanced modern helicopter--if they didn't know where it had been found. Add to that the fact that symbols proximate to the "helicopter" also appear to be instruments of war. It's certainly an interesting find.

Unfortunately this has been nicely debunked. (Though it does seem to have helped along the plot of Stargate, which is cool.)

220 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:09pm

re: #185 ploome hineni

Capt'n Marvo is getting upset?

/SHAZZAM

ROTFL!

221 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:10pm

re: #212 Thanos

[Link: dinocreationistsfairytale.wordpress.com. ..]


There we go.

222 Pullus Iulius  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:10pm

For the general amusement and classical enlightenment, I will link this: Bestiary of Ancient Greek Mythology & Legend. But if these fantastical creatures prove anyone's creation story, I am afraid it would be the one involving the Titans and Zeus.

223 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:14pm

re: #199 Walter L. Newton

Well- one clearly looked like a depiction of greek mythology- because, you know, they didn't have any freaky creatures in them- not at all. ;)

224 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:30pm

re: #123 buzzsawmonkey

They'd be terrible at teaching science; all their work violates the Laws of Motion. They consistently disprove "for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction," since for every action in their films there is an unequal and overwhelming reaction.

They also reject the notion of cause and effect as being unislamic. An article in the New York Times, How Islam Won, and Lost, the Lead in Science quotes Dr. Pervez Hoodbhoy, a Pakistani professor of physics:

Dr. Hoodbhoy said such groups had criticized the concept of cause and effect. Educational guidelines once issued by the Institute for Policy Studies in Pakistan, for example, included the recommendation that physical effects not be related to causes.

For example, it was not Islamic to say that combining hydrogen and oxygen makes water. ''You were supposed to say,'' Dr. Hoodbhoy recounted, ''that when you bring hydrogen and oxygen together then by the will of Allah water was created.''

225 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:56:57pm

re: #203 ploome hineni

your own investigating,

like what?

digging in the Russian gulag for fossils?

I am willing to look at other sources of info, got any links? I am willing to look at them, if you have time to dig them up...

226 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:57:27pm

I think Marvo might be on to something.

Proof that really big-headed people once roamed this planet.

227 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:57:28pm

Next will be talking about the "Bagdad Battery"

228 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:57:38pm

re: #222 Pullus Iulius

Wow- were we on a similar wave length just then?

229 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:58:38pm
230 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:58:51pm

re: #215 Walter L. Newton

It's hard to tell the ID'ers from the Fortean folks now a days.

At least most Forteans just list anomalous things and don't try to convince others that it's science.

231 Pullus Iulius  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:58:55pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Frightening. I am unworthy.

232 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:09pm

re: #223 Sharmuta

Well- one clearly looked like a depiction of greek mythology- because, you know, they didn't have any freaky creatures in them- not at all. ;)

Well, according to the kind of logic Marvo uses, he must believe in Zeus and the whole gang of merry gods, all that Greek art proves it.

233 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:14pm

re: #215 Walter L. Newton

It's hard to tell the ID'ers from the Fortean folks now a days.

Yes it is, if you leaf through the pages you will find that they've discovered Atlantis... three times in three different places. They've cribbed from all the pseudoscience frauds of the sixties apparently to put this together.

I see photo's from Ancient Astronauts, some speculation from Berlitz, etc.

234 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:21pm

re: #197 Marvo76

like I said some are suspect, but not all. I try to sift all the different info and see what comes to the top and what gets thrown aside. I take nothing at face value, at least until I can do some investigating on my own. Creationism as well as Darwinism. One example about the falsification of Darwinism where facts were tossed out are the pictures of the embryo's supposedly looking similar until they were born. They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Ummmmmmm...how do you remember what your elementary science books were like 30-40 years ago? Also, was your science class in ELEMENTARY school teaching reproduction 30-40 years ago?

235 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:26pm

re: #227 Walter L. Newton
That is what Bagdad Bob used for a backup power source.

236 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 7:59:45pm
237 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:00:11pm
238 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:00:22pm

re: #226 Noam Sayin'

I think Marvo might be on to something.

Proof that really big-headed people once roamed this planet.

It is obvious that this race of people died out due to their inability to compete with modern humans, who had arms.

Darwinism in action, I'd say.

239 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:00:29pm

re: #235 pingjockey

That is what Bagdad Bob used for a backup power source.

LOL

240 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:00:49pm

re: #231 Pullus Iulius

It's proof, PROOF! I tell you- that humans and dinos existed together!

241 Claire  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:01:12pm

re: #134 Marvo76

An Anasazi petroglyph of the Sinclair Dinosaur? ROFL, lol, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....

OMG, I have tears in my eyes.......lol.

242 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:01:19pm

re: #52 Charles

It's just astounding to me that there are creationists so locked into their belief system that they can't even see anything wrong with joining forces with Harun Yahya.

But there it is.

The "Related Links" at that site suggest an agenda that goes way beyond refutation of darwinism. I've bolded some for emphasis:

www.bbcrefuted.com
[Link: www.creationofman.net...]
[Link: www.creationofuniverse.com...]
[Link: www.darwinismrefuted.com...]
[Link: www.darwinism-watch.com...]
www.dayofjudgment.com
[Link: www.eastturkestan.net...]
www.endoftimes.net
[Link: www.evidencesofcreation.com...]
[Link: www.evolutiondeceit.com...]
[Link: www.evolutiondocumentary.com...]
[Link: www.freebookcenter.net...]
[Link: www.for-children.com...]
[Link: www.globalfreemasonry.com...]
[Link: www.harunyahya.com...]
[Link: www.insight-magazine.com...]
www.islamandbuddhism.com
[Link: www.islamandkarma.com...]
[Link: www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com...]
[Link: www.islamdenouncesantisemitism.com...]
[Link: www.jesuswillreturn.com...]

[Link: www.miraclesofthequran.com...]
[Link: www.noblequran.info...]
www.palestiniantragedy.com
[Link: www.paradiseinthequran.com...]
www.perishednations.com
[Link: www.theprophetmuhammad.org...]
www.riseofislam.com
[Link: www.secretbeyondmatter.com...]
www.servingislam.com
[Link: www.signsofthelastday.com...]

[Link: www.srf-tr.org...]
www.theistsunited.com
[Link: www.truthsforkids.com...]
www.unionoffaiths.com
[Link: www.worldwarsunveiled.com...]
243 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:01:24pm

re: #238 Cicero05

It is obvious that this race of people died out due to their inability to compete with modern humans, who had arms.

Darwinism in action, I'd say.

That, and they kept falling over.

244 Pullus Iulius  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:01:25pm

re: #240 Sharmuta

And nymphs. Don't forget the nymphs.

245 Reno911  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:02:02pm

I guess it all comes down to whether you believe in some version of divine revelation...

or not.

246 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:02:32pm

re: #32 Marvo76

Well at least one thing I noted in here has some fact to it, "One of the most astonishing claims in the book is that Charles Darwin – the quiet Victorian gentleman naturalist – was responsible for the worst evils of the 20th century: racism, communism, fascism, Nazism, terrorism and, ultimately, 9/11. In a piece of overt symbolic theatre the book’s creators marked the anniversary of 9/11 last year by sending the Atlas to a large number of Protestant priests across Europe. The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united." It was Hitlers belief in Darwinism that propelled him to the "final solution", in fact he is quoted as as referring to Darwin to prove the Aryan race was superior....

Sigh...please go back and read the dozens of threads on this topic before you continue to spout this falsehood.

Hitler's belief in the PSEUDOSCIENCE of "Social Darwinism"--a twisted, bastardized, unscientific application of supposed evolutionary principles to human society--was ONE of MANY "justifications" Hitler and the Nazis came up with for the Final Solution. Hitler probably did not even really understand Darwin's theory, or care to. Please present evidence that Hitler's "belief in Darwinism," and "Darwinism" alone, "propelled" him to the Final Solution. Also, please provide the quote you refer to. There is nothing in Darwin's writings, when read in full context and not partially quoted or misquoted, that can be used to prove the Aryan race was superior. By the way, people used the Bible to justify slavery, you know.

that being said, with all the fossils in evidence in thousands of drawers in hundred of museums, have you ever seen a solid family tree of ANY species? Where are all the transition fossils? You would think they would have a solid set of at least one species in the multitudes that they have discover and cataloged over the last two hundred years or so....

There are thousands upon thousands of transitional fossils. There are several fairly solid transitional sequences, such as the evolution of the horse, the development of the bones of the inner ear, the transition from land mammal to early whale, and just a couple days ago Charles posted on the evolution of the flounder.

I'm sorry, but let me be blunt. This is the age of the Internet. There is really no excuse for your profound ignorance or your attempt to foist it on others. Just type "transitional fossil sequences" into any search engine and dozens of resources will magically reveal themselves to you.

Oops. Did I say "magical?" Actually, it's science.

247 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:02:55pm

re: #241 Claire
You think that is funny? It is sad that some one would believe that photoshopped thing was real. But, it was damn funny!

248 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:03:04pm

re: #244 Pullus Iulius

But there's more! Absolute proof of human/dino co-existence!

249 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:03:10pm

re: #233 Thanos

Yes it is, if you leaf through the pages you will find that they've discovered Atlantis... three times in three different places. They've cribbed from all the pseudoscience frauds of the sixties apparently to put this together.

I see photo's from Ancient Astronauts, some speculation from Berlitz, etc.

Shameless self-promo - back in the 70's, I had a once a month radio show on a 50 thou watt station in Dallas, SAt. midnight to 5am discussing those subjects.

Things really got interesting about 2:20, right after the last call at the bars.

Come to think about it, that's where I heard the name Marvo.

Walter in Golden, Co.

250 Wonder95  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:03:23pm
Examples cited of a growing creationist influence ranged from subtle downgrading of evolution in science education to outright attacks on the validity of Darwinism and the personality of Darwin himself.

Oh my gosh! How dare anybody ever question the great Darwin! Evolution is fact! Doesn't everybody know that?!?

251 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:03:38pm

More proof of the coexistence of man and dinosaurs.

252 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:15pm

Well, I can prove that we evolved. At one time we had a flute growing from our nose, now we don't. Ask the Anasazi.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Yippie.

253 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:20pm

OK. I am now officially flabbergasted.

Humans. Riding dinosaurs.

Bwa. Bwa ha. Bwa hahahhaha.

Sorry. I just can't help myself.

254 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:25pm

re: #185 ploome hineni

Capt'n Marvo is getting upset?

/SHAZZAM

Bwhahahah that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago. I touched a high voltage tube in the back of a TV and all my lab partner could say was "shazaam man it's captain Marvo" the name stuck LOL but no I am not upset, I learn from the debate to improve my info, and if something isn't up to what it is supposed to be, then I am willing to bend on my convictions, and still not deride someone for their info.

255 Wonder95  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:33pm

Clarification: my quote above had a </extreme_sarcasm> tag at the end which was not displayed

256 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:05:45pm

I am a little incredulous that Islam has anything significant to say about creationism.

However I think taqquiya (sp?) is really the order of the the day with this kook. We will see more nonsensical alignments like this because getting the infidels to tear each other apart will make it easier to subjugate them.

257 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:13pm

re: #250 Wonder95

The great thing about science is that if you do some work that will disprove the theory, you'll be rich and famous.

258 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:16pm

re: #253 Charles
Ain't that great art work?! Mwahahaha!

259 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:17pm

re: #236 ploome hineni

does your mommy know where you are?

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

260 Da_Beerfreak  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:38pm

re: #172 Killgore Trout

"reality is a problem and must be corrected."

Now there's a rotating title!

261 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:06:48pm
262 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:07:25pm

re: #254 Marvo76

Bwhahahah that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago. I touched a high voltage tube in the back of a TV and all my lab partner could say was "shazaam man it's captain Marvo" the name stuck LOL but no I am not upset, I learn from the debate to improve my info, and if something isn't up to what it is supposed to be, then I am willing to bend on my convictions, and still not deride someone for their info.

And you are taking our ribbing in good spirits. I don't think anyone has done anything more than point some things out, some with good humor, some with sternness, but no one is deriding you.

263 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:07:43pm

re: #253 Charles

OK. I am now officially flabbergasted.

Humans. Riding dinosaurs.

Bwa. Bwa ha. Bwa hahahhaha.

Sorry. I just can't help myself.

You laugh.

264 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:07:47pm

re: #260 Da_Beerfreak

Now there's a rotating title!

It already is, sort of. "reality is a mistake, we must rectify it"

/saw it on my way in here

265 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:07:58pm

re: #248 Sharmuta

Haven't you seen Klanus fogysarus?

266 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:08:12pm

Back. Knowing the frantic pace of these ID threads, the only question I can ask at this point is:

What did I miss?

267 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:08:27pm

Marvo,

I suggest that you get your son a subscription to the Skeptical Inquirer and start reading that instead.

[Link: www.skeptic.com...]

268 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:08:42pm

re: #206 Walter L. Newton

Well, you didn't investigate the "dino" to hard, did you, since the word KROKODILOPARDALIS is sort of like a marquee on the painting.

Me thinks that your simply read something and ran with it.

Also sounds like he is cribbing from some old talking points from the D.I. Nothing works better than the lies that worked before (or something like that).

269 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:08:52pm

re: #266 laZardo
Everything and nothing. Heh.

270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:09:07pm

re: #13 Racer X

I still cannot get over the New Yorker cover.

Hillary you magnificent bitch.

Made me really happy. Supposed to be satire of how conservatives think of BH and M Obama.

First of all, "Hey New Yorker, I do not think of BHO as a Muslim, and I think claims about it are silly. Don't know Michelle...said a couple of dumb things, but I don't see her as a Militant Black Panther either.

I do think BHO is as a f'n commie.

271 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:09:53pm

re: #267 Thanos

Marvo,

I suggest that you get your son a subscription to the Skeptical Inquirer and start reading that instead.

[Link: www.skeptic.com...]

That's a good suggestion. Great magazine.

272 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:09:58pm

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

Sonny?

Ploome is a lady, a delicate flower, a most refined and elegant personage.

273 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:10:42pm

re: #267 Thanos

Marvo,

I suggest that you get your son a subscription to the Skeptical Inquirer and start reading that instead.

Or better still, Stagworld.

274 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:10:51pm

re: #246 Tigger2005

There are thousands upon thousands of transitional fossils. There are several fairly solid transitional sequences, such as the evolution of the horse, the development of the bones of the inner ear, the transition from land mammal to early whale, and just a couple days ago Charles posted on the evolution of the flounder.

I'm sorry, but let me be blunt. This is the age of the Internet. There is really no excuse for your profound ignorance or your attempt to foist it on others. Just type "transitional fossil sequences" into any search engine and dozens of resources will magically reveal themselves to you.

Oops. Did I say "magical?" Actually, it's science.

I guess I need to check that out, I don't have all day to sit on the net, I do work for a living after all. I will check some of them out when I get some time. Should they convince me I will be more than happy to eat some crow....This should temper the lynch mob which wishes to dispatch me like a common beggar LOL.

275 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:10:54pm

re: #242 abolitionist


Looks to be of 12th Imam eschatological influence n'est ce pas?

276 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:10:59pm

re: #266 laZardo

About 30 minutes of evolution.

277 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:20pm

re: #254 Marvo76

that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago

re: #197 Marvo76

Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Perhaps some Lizards with greater mathematical skills can help me out but, if you were in grade school in the 60s, how could you be in high school more than 30 years ago?

278 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:33pm

re: #270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I get the feeling The New Yorker is about to lose a lot of subscribers.

279 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:40pm
280 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:44pm

re: #267 Thanos

Marvo,

I suggest that you get your son a subscription to the Skeptical Inquirer and start reading that instead.

[Link: www.skeptic.com...]

I can do that!

281 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:51pm

re: #253 Charles

You laugh, but what about those poor humans that the dinosaurs ate!

282 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:55pm

re: #271 Walter L. Newton

That's a good suggestion. Great magazine.

Used to read it when it was the "Zetetic" and nobody knew who Penn and Teller were.

283 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:11:57pm

re: #270 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Made me really happy. Supposed to be satire of how conservatives think of BH and M Obama.

First of all, "Hey New Yorker, I do not think of BHO as a Muslim, and I think claims about it are silly. Don't know Michelle...said a couple of dumb things, but I don't see her as a Militant Black Panther either.

I do think BHO is as a f'n commie.

And it back fired on the mag. I have been reading comments on other blogs and news sites tonight and the pinheads (did I say that) are all up in arms, thinking that they are making fun of B&M.

284 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:12:04pm

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

Sonny?

You really don't read here much, do you?

285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:12:09pm

re: #253 Charles

Nobody seems to remember Marshall, Will and Holly. They were on a routine expedition, then, there was the greatest earthquake ever known ....

286 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:18pm

re: #277 MandyManners

that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago

re: #197 Marvo76

Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Perhaps some Lizards with greater mathematical skills can help me out but, if you were in grade school in the 60s, how could you be in high school more than 30 years ago?

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

Those three posts don't compute for me.

287 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:31pm

re: #277 MandyManners

that is how I got my nickname in high school many (30+) years ago

re: #197 Marvo76

Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!

Perhaps some Lizards with greater mathematical skills can help me out but, if you were in grade school in the 60s, how could you be in high school more than 30 years ago?

graduated 1976, today is 2008, 32 years unless my math is bad, started school in 1964 in first grade...

288 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:45pm

re: #279 ploome hineni

hee-hee.

But ya know, you could at least have given me an upding for the glowing description.

289 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:47pm

re: #278 Racer X

Oh come on. They will have McCain in a brownshirt next issue and everyone will come back.

290 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:13:59pm

re: #277 MandyManners
Mandy, I graduated in 1977, 1977 + 30 = 2007
1977-12=1965. I was 6 in 1965 when I was in the 1st grade.

291 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:05pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nobody seems to remember Marshall, Will and Holly. They were on a routine expedition, then, there was the greatest earthquake ever known ....

ROFLMAO!

292 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:07pm

re: #229 ploome hineni

remember Capt'n Marvel

/Mohammed ACCCCCCCCChmed Shazam does

Why yes I do remember Cap'n Marvel.

/Did you say 'ACCCCCCCCChmed'?

293 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:19pm

re: #274 Marvo76

I guess I need to check that out, I don't have all day to sit on the net, I do work for a living after all. I will check some of them out when I get some time. Should they convince me I will be more than happy to eat some crow....This should temper the lynch mob which wishes to dispatch me like a common beggar LOL.

Ok Marvo, nothing works like a charm here. And what's more, playing the poor me line doesn't hack it. We are debating a subject, you jumped in, we jumped back and we are all learning something.

If we were a "lynch mob" you wouldn't be able to respond, you'd be finished.

294 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:22pm

re: #283 Walter L. Newton

And it back fired on the mag. I have been reading comments on other blogs and news sites tonight and the pinheads (did I say that) are all up in arms, thinking that they are making fun of B&M.

Don't they understand that the thin skinned dumb bastards will never understand satire?

295 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:26pm
296 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:27pm

re: #279 ploome hineni

*snort*

:D

My bad LOL I will know better next time. You young whiper snapper LOL

297 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:29pm

Snort ... hehehe ... heh ... snuck .... bwahahaha!

Sorry, I just can't seem to stop.

That has to be one of the most hilarious creationist links I've ever seen.

298 Reno911  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:32pm

re: #277 MandyManners

I was in grade school in the 60's and graduated high school more than 30 years ago.

I think.

299 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:14:40pm

re: #283 Walter L. Newton

And it back fired on the mag. I have been reading comments on other blogs and news sites tonight and the pinheads (did I say that) are all up in arms, thinking that they are making fun of B&M.

They failed to take into account one of the key attributes of the left: no sense of humor.

300 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:15:25pm

re: #291 Racer X

Thank you for catching that.

301 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:15:42pm
302 quickjustice  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:15:55pm

re: #299 ErnieG

Bingo!

303 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:18pm

re: #297 Charles
I have to go back and look at all that goofy art work. Priceless.

304 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:26pm

re: #294 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Don't they understand that the thin skinned dumb bastards will never understand satire?

Unless they are writing/drawing the "so claimed satire" which is their favorite wat to excuse their excesses.

305 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:30pm

re: #298 Reno911

I was in grade school in the 60's and graduated high school more than 30 years ago.

I think.

I just try

not

to think about it. In my head I'm mid-20's.

306 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:32pm
307 jcw46  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:38pm

Is it possible that when someone supplies a counter argument (however misguided and rehashed) but does not include negative personal comments that the perceived target answers without negative personal comments. This is what bothers me most about these threads is the incivility and ad hominem attacks (a propensity of the left mind you).

Comments like; 'you ignorant idiot' or 'are you stupid or what' serve no purpose. Anyone who resorts to name calling or categorizing their target as less than worthy of respect shows a lack of maturity and only results in the targets sense of being attacked.

Zealots are the true danger and zealotry is found EVERYWHERE (even here). True believers are only interested in one thing; conversion of those whose opinions differ from theirs. THAT is what we should be concerned about. Self-righteousness turns into zealotry morphs into fascism then expands into terrorism and becomes an engine of death to all disbelievers.

308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:44pm

re: #301 ploome hineni

Dinged you up on that! (heh)

309 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:55pm

I dun gradiiated grade skool in the 60's. Twice.

310 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:16:55pm

re: #293 Walter L. Newton

Ok Marvo, nothing works like a charm here. And what's more, playing the poor me line doesn't hack it. We are debating a subject, you jumped in, we jumped back and we are all learning something.

If we were a "lynch mob" you wouldn't be able to respond, you'd be finished.

it wasn't you I was refering to, you have kept the debate civil there was another who rsorted to snide comments about my person. I would have to scroll up and look but the shower is sounding better all the time ( and todays sweat is getting worse...)

311 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:17:13pm

re: #23 coquimbojoe

I think the argument of the creationists goes something like this -- Darwin de-linked humans with the Divine or the Holy. Darwin suggested that humans were no different (qualitatively) from animals. According to Darwin, humans and animals have a shared biology (common origins). The creationists then argue that such a belief "frees" humans from moral responsibility (that is, if people are animals, then people need only follow their basest, animal instincts and need not bother with morality -- there's no imperative to act "humanely.") In the "olden days" (that's pre-Darwin), people and animals were distinct/separate categories (no overlap). Animals were not expected to exhibit "morals", but people were. In the post-Darwin age (so the Creationists argue), certain animal species become imbued with "rights", while people behave increasingly like inhuman animals...I believe this is the gist of their arguments.

312 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:17:33pm

re: #286 MandyManners

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

Those three posts don't compute for me.

They do for me since I am 49, graduated from HS in '77 (30+1 years), and did go to grade school (kindergarten) starting in '64. His other "facts" seem to be cribbed straight out of talking points from the D.I., though.

313 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:17:40pm

re: #297 Charles

Snort ... hehehe ... heh ... snuck .... bwahahaha!

Sorry, I just can't seem to stop.

That has to be one of the most hilarious creationist links I've ever seen.

And then there was the Piltdown Man...

314 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:18:32pm

re: #310 Marvo76

it wasn't you I was refering to, you have kept the debate civil there was another who rsorted to snide comments about my person. I would have to scroll up and look but the shower is sounding better all the time ( and todays sweat is getting worse...)

Noted.

315 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:18:33pm

re: #253 Charles

Uh, did you forget Fred Flintstone?

316 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:19:31pm

re: #310 Marvo76

it wasn't you I was refering to, you have kept the debate civil there was another who rsorted to snide comments about my person. I would have to scroll up and look but the shower is sounding better all the time ( and todays sweat is getting worse...)

Come on, don't give me that much credit, I have been at least a little snide.

317 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:19:46pm

re: #308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dinged you up on that! (heh)

So did I. But - shhh - don't let her know . . .

318 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:19:48pm

re: #256 unclassifiable

I am a little incredulous that Islam has anything significant to say about creationism.

However I think taqquiya (sp?) is really the order of the the day with this kook. We will see more nonsensical alignments like this because getting the infidels to tear each other apart will make it easier to subjugate them.

that is exactly what the rop'ers are up to. they could give a shite abt. any christian's take on creationism.
this is a strategic move to cause discord.
the secular world is hardly an enemy to christians.
they should not be throwing in w/ 7th century barbarians.
this is a bad move.

319 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:19:49pm

re: #287 Marvo76

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

320 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:20:54pm

re: #319 MandyManners

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

I love you... get right to the point, don't ya.

321 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:21:19pm

re: #301 ploome hineni

i am against the ding system

It is not part of my LGF experience

I dinged you up just for that.

*rad*

322 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:21:23pm
323 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:21:39pm

re: #259 Marvo76

She is in bed, and I am nearly 50, I wonder if yours knows you are still up past your bedtime sonny...

LOL.
sonny is working on getting into HER bikini

324 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:22:23pm

re: #322 ploome hineni

...when only ad hominem is the correct response

Rotating title.

325 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:22:33pm

re: #320 Walter L. Newton

I love you... get right to the point, don't ya.

To paraphrase Judge Judy, if something doesn't make sense, it's not true.

To further paraphrase her, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

326 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:22:35pm

re: #311 J.S.

I think the argument of the creationists goes something like this -- Darwin de-linked humans with the Divine or the Holy. Darwin suggested that humans were no different (qualitatively) from animals. According to Darwin, humans and animals have a shared biology (common origins). The creationists then argue that such a belief "frees" humans from moral responsibility (that is, if people are animals, then people need only follow their basest, animal instincts and need not bother with morality -- there's no imperative to act "humanely.") In the "olden days" (that's pre-Darwin), people and animals were distinct/separate categories (no overlap). Animals were not expected to exhibit "morals", but people were. In the post-Darwin age (so the Creationists argue), certain animal species become imbued with "rights", while people behave increasingly like inhuman animals...I believe this is the gist of their arguments.

that actually happened in spain the other day when they agred to give apes/chimps rights...

327 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:23:08pm

re: #325 MandyManners

To paraphrase Judge Judy, if something doesn't make sense, it's not true.

To further paraphrase her, don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

I forget, are you from the NYC area?

328 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:23:23pm

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

I'm reading that page, and I'm just dyin' over here. That site is a gold mine of creationist comedy!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

329 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:23:45pm

re: #297 Charles

Why is it the real kook sites also suck at web design?

You could cook dinner waiting for the thumbnails to download.

330 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:23:54pm
331 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:20pm

re: #326 Marvo76

that actually happened in spain the other day when they agred to give apes/chimps rights...

Touche' (well, a point well made, yes)

And you're right, there are some dingbats on both sides of things, aren't there.

332 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:31pm

re: #319 MandyManners

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

I did see those in a biology book when I was young, but I wouldn't pin down exactly where or when. I was quite surprised that they were frauds.

Of course since I often quested in the dustiest corners of the libraries when I was young it could have been a really old book.

333 Racer X  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:32pm

The earth is only 4.5 Billion years old. A lot can happen in 4.5 billion years. Look what has gone down just in the past few thousand years.

What will things look like on earth in a hundred years?

200 years?

A thousand years from now?

Think bigger.

334 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:42pm

Thanks to the Lizards who did the math for me.

335 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:24:54pm

re: #328 Charles

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

I'm reading that page, and I'm just dyin' over here. That site is a gold mine of creationist comedy!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

This site is satire, right? All this just has to be satire.

336 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:09pm

Are those ... airplanes flying over the pyramids?

You gotta see the homepage!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

337 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:11pm

re: #319 MandyManners
I don't think our grade! school science books had pics of embryos. I do remember the chart for phylem and phloem. IIRC. Stuff by Mendel.

338 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:11pm

re: #311 J.S.

About the only thing I believe that fundamentally distinguishes humans from animals is that humans are consciously aware of their own existence.

/that's all I got to say about that...

339 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:29pm

re: #328 Charles

Charles, as I've mentioned before, I have a friend who believes that the dinosaur bones are the bones of the angels that God kicked out of heaven with the devil.

340 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:29pm

re: #336 Charles
Pterodactyls at Gitmo, with eyewitnesses.

341 DesertSage  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:33pm

I believe that God created the universe.
I guess I'm a "creationist"?

342 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:37pm

re: #327 Walter L. Newton

I forget, are you from the NYC area?

Nope. But, I'd like to be.

343 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:25:37pm

re: #297 Charles

Laugh on. Dinosaurs of Eden by Ken Ham

The autographed copy that was gifted to me went to the local landfill.

344 unclassifiable  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:01pm

re: #325 MandyManners

Its the folks who piss on your leg just to piss on your leg that grind my gears.

345 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:07pm

Gitmo link: [Link: www.s8int.com...]

346 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:08pm

re: #255 Wonder95

Clarification: my quote above had a </extreme_sarcasm> tag at the end which was not displayed

If you enclose it in < > and don't put a space right after the opening left arrow, like this < tag >, it might be interpreted as an html tag and not displayed.

347 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:10pm

re: #328 Charles

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

I'm reading that page, and I'm just dyin' over here. That site is a gold mine of creationist comedy!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

A throbbing gif. Charles, have you been working on their website?

348 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:19pm

re: #326 Marvo76

that actually happened in spain the other day when they agred to give apes/chimps rights...

Got a link?

349 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:26pm

Fellow Lizards,

I'm a relatively new hatchling in these parts and therefore of neither mind nor disposition to become emotionally entangled in this particularly odious debate.

And it most certainly IS odious. One can cut the acrimony with a knife - assuming it can be wrested from the hands of one side or the other. Far too many articles on this subject here at LGF are splattered with a bitter alloy of intellectual blood and emotional bile.

The passion here in the Lizard Domain is understandable and a microcosm of the greater debate in out nation and in the world: many of those who do not believe in a God of creation fear the emergence of a theocracy that would lash the followers of Darwin to the heretical stake; many of those who reject evolution as the origin of species fear the triumph of a militant atheocracy that would banish those who believe in God entirely to the confines of a gulag.

Both are correct, insofar as every school of thought has its extremists and yet both are tragically misguided. What pains me most as a conservative is that the heat generated by the extremities may be of such intensity as to ignite and consume the combustible center, thereby rendering our cause sufficiently impotent with regard to the those who present a very clear and very present danger to our lives and our liberty.

Unlike the Mohammedans, whose rejection of the very reason embraced by the greatest minds of Western civilization (Aristotle, Aquinas, Burke, et al) weds itself till death to a slavishly literal interpretation of their Koran, Americans of all stripes can appeal to both reason and our own Constitution, neither of which condones either the substitution of what we believe as a matter of faith for what our eyes perceive as a matter of science or the abolition of what it believes as a matter of faith because the eyes of science cannot perceive it.

Must I remind my fellow Lizards that numerous men of science - whose academic and intellectual credentials are indisputable - were (and many of them are today) devoutly religious people? Moreover, numerous others - whose theological credentials are beyond question - were (and are today) dedicated men of empirical science.

While they who sincerely believe in the Judeo-Christian God must embrace both their religion AND the cold verdict of empirical science, it is likewise true that they who sincerely believe only the cold data revealed by empirical science must refrain from affirming or denying that which science cannot quantify or qualify.

The scientist who denies the existence of God betrays all those upon whose shoulders he stands, while the deist who denies the verdict of empirical science reviles the God of his fathers who, according to his faith, is the foundation of all reason.

As for the question of so-called "intelligent design," the answer is blindingly obvious: the empirical science of our day can neither affirm nor deny it, anymore than it can affirm or deny the existence of God.

As for those whose zeal for "intelligent design" would impel them to embrace a common cause with Mohammedans who have avowed our destruction as a civilization, I can only remind them that you cannot have Falstaff and have him thin.

Hopefully, I have given some here reason for pause. I have prattled on quite enough...thank you for your time.

Best regards,

Nemo

350 neocon hippie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:26:37pm

It's come up every now and then that there seem to be quite a few lizards born in something like 1958-1963 or thereabouts. I'm one, having been born in 1959. We're somewhere on the Baby Boom/Gen X cusp.

351 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:00pm

re: #335 FurryOldGuyJeans

This site is satire, right? All this just has to be satire.

Too much work for a joke, but not for a labor of love.

352 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:10pm
353 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:37pm

re: #349 NemoParticularis

Umm.

Ok.

354 Fat Jolly Penguin  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:39pm

re: #336 Charles

See my second link in #219.

355 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:27:47pm
356 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:28:08pm

re: #319 MandyManners

I still call MASSIVE bullshit on your grade school science text having illustrations of embryos in the 60s, and your ability to recall not just that fact but "They were depicted by Ernst Haeckel, they were later dispelled as fraud by a book in 1915 "Haeckel's frauds and forgeries" written by J Assmuth and Ernest J Hall. Yet some of those same illustrations were depicted in the science book I had in grade school as fact back in the 60's!"

I remembered the illustration in my science book, when I saw the argument in my son's book "Tornado in the junkyard" I recalled it. It is a curse that I can remember things like that. The quote was from my son's book, he was up and I had him get it because I couldn't recall the name of the fraud who drew up the pictures. Sorry bout that, I can't help what you may believe of me. Would it help to tell you that I can remember the apartment we lived in when I was 3? even some of the things I did while we lived there.

357 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:28:21pm

re: #272 reine.de.tout

Sonny?

Ploome is a lady, a delicate flower, a most refined and elegant personage.

With a bikini stuck to her butt.

358 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:28:34pm

re: #355 ploome hineni

Well, that too. q:

359 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:28:50pm

re: #341 DesertSage

I believe that God created the universe.
I guess I'm a "creationist"?

So do I but, I don't believe that Genesis is completely literal. I think God used all kinds of stuff to create this world, and His children.

360 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:29:12pm

re: #336 Charles

Are those ... airplanes flying over the pyramids?

You gotta see the homepage!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

Ok, I've poked around there some more. All I can say is the ghost of Von daniken.

361 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:29:35pm

re: #336 Charles

Are those ... airplanes flying over the pyramids?

You gotta see the homepage!

[Link: www.s8int.com...]

The mecha voice personality appears in lots of Harun Yahya vids, presumably because he doesn't want people hearing Turkish accents.

362 shiplord kirel  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:29:44pm

Ken Ham's Creation Museum in Kentucky actually does have a model of a triceratops wearing a saddle.

(I've got to admit, my grandson would love to have one of these. Actually, come to think, I would too.)

363 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:29:52pm

re: #348 MandyManners

Got a link?


[Link: blogs.nature.com...]

364 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:01pm

I admit, I've never looked into this creationist-dinosaur fixation, but man oh man.

Dinosaurs by Design by Duane Gish.

365 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:12pm
366 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:28pm

re: #345 jaunte

Gitmo link: [Link: www.s8int.com...]

Oh, that has got to be a joke.

367 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:39pm

re: #349 NemoParticularis

What you said.

368 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:30:57pm

re: #364 Charles

I admit, I've never looked into this creationist-dinosaur fixation, but man oh man.

Dinosaurs by Design by Duane Gish.

Want it delivered Tuesday, July 15?

369 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:31:08pm

re: #348 MandyManners

Got a link?

it was on either drudge or Worldnet daily, but maybe Mr. Newton could help you out there, I don't have it handy.

370 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:31:09pm

So long, farewell, Auf wiedersehen, good night, I hate to go and leave this pretty sight....

G'night Lizards!

371 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:31:59pm
372 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:31:59pm

re: #351 ErnieG

Too much work for a joke, but not for a labor of love.

Good satire would take this much work to be really effective. But the more I look the more I see the person is quite serious in their moonbattery. Yikes.

373 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:00pm

oops seems he beat me to it Thanks sir

374 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:20pm
375 DesertSage  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:21pm

re: #359 MandyManners

So do I but, I don't believe that Genesis is completely literal. I think God used all kinds of stuff to create this world, and His children.

We believe the same thing. We're still considered creationists.

376 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:26pm

re: #330 ploome hineni

the koran says man was created from a blod clot

/aaaaaaaaaaaaarghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

now that is a vulgar creationist theory.

377 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:45pm

re: #353 Mars Needs Neocons

Umm.

Ok.

Whew. No knife. Always a good thing. Unless, of course, you are presented with a less-than-fork-tender steak.

378 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:32:55pm

re: #366 reine.de.tout

Oh, that has got to be a joke.

It's definitely not a joke. It's got that distinctive smell of obsessed kook all over it.

379 wolfie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:12pm

re: #311 J.S.

In so far as they are concerned about so-called "Darwinian" philosophies or ideologies, they have a valid and important point to make. We deny that at our peril.
But Darwin's own work and modern evolution theory are science, not philosophy or ideology. The latter do not necessarily follow from the former. That is where I think the mistake is made.

It's rather like some of the radical feminists who have denied or fought any scientific evidence of emotional or mental differences between men and women. They are assuming, incorrectly IMO, that knowledge of that sort must necessarily lead to unequal treatment of women.

380 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:23pm

re: #356 Marvo76

I remembered the illustration in my science book, when I saw the argument in my son's book "Tornado in the junkyard" I recalled it. It is a curse that I can remember things like that. The quote was from my son's book, he was up and I had him get it because I couldn't recall the name of the fraud who drew up the pictures. Sorry bout that, I can't help what you may believe of me. Would it help to tell you that I can remember the apartment we lived in when I was 3? even some of the things I did while we lived there.

My X has eidetic memory so, I believe that it is possible that you remember those things.

I apologize.

But, I still think ID has no business in public schools except in a class on comparative religions.

381 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:40pm

Thank you all for the debate, I need to wash my scuzzy butt, and hit the hay. I will try to remember the people I have had the pleasure of chatting with here. Good night all!

382 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:43pm
383 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:33:54pm

re: #369 Marvo76

it was on either drudge or Worldnet daily, but maybe Mr. Newton could help you out there, I don't have it handy.

Stop it with the patronizing tone. Okay?

385 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:34:13pm

re: #349 NemoParticularis

Must I remind my fellow Lizards that numerous men of science - whose academic and intellectual credentials are indisputable - were (and many of them are today) devoutly religious people? Moreover, numerous others - whose theological credentials are beyond question - were (and are today) dedicated men of empirical science.

No one here is denying that. Nor is anyone here arguing that it's some sort of a problem.

What we are discussing is that ID is not science and doesn't belong in a science classroom, and that the people pushing ID are in bed with islamic creationists, which many of us (and you'd think all of us) have a problem with.

386 J.S.  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:34:13pm

re: #338 laZardo

There have been some new experiments in self-awareness in chimps. (Some early studies have now been deemed inadequate or flawed.) The use of language (or a whole other symbolic universe -- a language universe) with syntax (not just a recognition of "signs") is what many believe separates animals from humans...

387 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:34:17pm

re: #366 reine.de.tout

Oh, that has got to be a joke.

Did you see the picture and text on the sidebar...

"In fact, some of them observed specimens that they sketched, that may now be confidently identified with modern fossils that are known. Martin Luther observed, also accurately describing, the Scaphognathus's appearance; indeed a coin from his hometown (Mansfield) depicted a S. being hunted. "

I collect ancient coins. That's a scyphate (Byzantine cup coin) that someone did a little of their own engraving on, by hand.

388 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:34:24pm

re: #367 MandyManners

What you said.

Thank you, Ms. Manners.

389 Mars Needs Neocons  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:02pm

re: #377 NemoParticularis

Whew. No knife. Always a good thing. Unless, of course, you are presented with a less-than-fork-tender steak.

No, just a response to well reasoned opinion. (Though, quite long)

390 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:06pm

re: #381 Marvo76

TMI.

391 Charles  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:07pm
392 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:14pm

What is thisworldcoming to!:0 ?Weet dreams to ya all!:)

393 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:17pm

re: #381 Marvo76

Thank you all for the debate, I need to wash my scuzzy butt, and hit the hay. I will try to remember the people I have had the pleasure of chatting with here. Good night all!

TMI, ok, night, enjoyed the banter. Come back.

394 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:18pm
395 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:35:36pm

re: #378 Charles

It's definitely not a joke. It's got that distinctive smell of obsessed kook all over it.

One reason I took a full look. Sun Tzu "know your enemy"

396 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:10pm

re: #345 jaunte

Gitmo link: [Link: www.s8int.com...]

It's frightening, isn't it, that these people have driver's licenses and can vote.

397 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:17pm

re: #388 NemoParticularis

You're welcome, Ms./Mr. Particularis.

399 jcw46  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:24pm

re: #322 ploome hineni

there comes a time, for every seasoned blogging aficionado

when only ad hominem is the correct response

when someone, has demonstrated over time and argument, a head so thick and resistant to understanding and a mind so void of reason, logic and intelligence

that a well slung ad hominem

is the only way to deal with the moron

I can understand the sentiment but it just seems juvenile (i.e. "you're a poopyfaced retard) and doesn't serve to advance/defend one's argument.

400 yehoshua  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:29pm

d Muslims stand united."re: #311 J.S.

Very well stated. Let us also add that history's most prolific murderers -- Nazis and Communists -- were devotees of Darwinism.

401 Opilio  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:36:30pm

re: #350 neocon hippie

It's come up every now and then that there seem to be quite a few lizards born in something like 1958-1963 or thereabouts. I'm one, having been born in 1959. We're somewhere on the Baby Boom/Gen X cusp.

A fine vintage.

402 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:03pm

re: #374 ploome hineni

...............................took me hours to find that link

:P

And he's still call you a "he".

403 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:06pm

re: #383 MandyManners

Stop it with the patronizing tone. Okay?

wasn't meaning to, he had mentioned a "touch'" which meant he had read it too. So I thought he might have the link at hand...

404 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:12pm

re: #365 ploome hineni

)!(

405 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:45pm
406 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:37:54pm

re: #378 Charles

It's definitely not a joke. It's got that distinctive smell of obsessed kook all over it.

You're right. I said "labor of love" in my comment, but "obsessed kook" nails it.

407 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:38:22pm

re: #401 Opilio

A fine vintage.

Not as fine as 1952. I like my age, growing old is good, well, it's better than the alternative.

408 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:38:42pm

re: #384 Charles

Here I though this was what really happened to the dinosaurs! I'm so disillusioned.

409 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:38:51pm

re: #403 Marvo76

wasn't meaning to, he had mentioned a "touch'" which meant he had read it too. So I thought he might have the link at hand...

It's the whole, not the particulars.

410 Thanos  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:38:51pm

re: #366 reine.de.tout

Oh, that has got to be a joke.

I think they watched too much Johnny Quest as kids.

411 laZardo  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:19pm

re: #386 J.S.

Clearly the human "language" sense has developed and diversified much more quickly than any other species...

412 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:21pm

re: #396 reine.de.tout
Coincidentally I was just saying that to my wife when your message popped up.

414 realwest  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:31pm

re: #375 DesertSage
Hi Sage! I don't quite understand. I believe in God and I believe in Evolution - just that God was the "spark" or whatever for it, and I don't believe that Genesis is completely literal and that makes me a "Creationist"?!
Are you sure about that?

415 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:32pm

re: #408 Sharmuta

I knew it before I clicked the link. Nice form!

416 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:34pm

re: #403 Marvo76

wasn't meaning to, he had mentioned a "touch'" which meant he had read it too. So I thought he might have the link at hand...

I said touche' I was giving you a point for your reference to giving apes human rights.

417 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:39pm

re: #407 Walter L. Newton

Amen Walter!weet dreams to ya!

418 jegjr  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:39:39pm

"The message was clear: in the fight against the theory of evolution Christians and Muslims stand united."

I'm sure there's a jew in there somewhere too! (before you lose your mind) Same God as Christians and all.

419 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:40:00pm

re: #412 jaunte

Coincidentally I was just saying that to my wife when your message popped up.

HA. Well, then, GMTA

420 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:40:09pm

re: #404 formercorpsman

)!(

Ok I dont know that one, is that buttocks?

421 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:40:15pm

re: #384 Charles

What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs? (DJ and Tracker John): John D. Morris, Ken Ham, Jonathan Chang.

The book that rewrites the fiction of secular dinosaur lore. Beautifully illustrated, highly imaginative. Adults will appreciate the scientific teaching of a biblical alternative.

Just the kind of "scientific teaching" a kid needs.

422 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:40:48pm

re: #420 Marvo76

?

423 jaunte  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:41:23pm

re: #413 Charles

From the reviews: "Mike Oard is a scholar who has done much geologic field work. Having done field work with him, I can testify to the fact that he pays careful attention to detail, and is very skillful in separating fact from interpretation. In this work he goes outside the mental boxes of conventional uniformitarian geology, and shows the consequences, upon humans, of a single Ice Age."

424 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:41:33pm

re: #400 yehoshua

Bullshit! They were devotees of power.

425 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:41:38pm

re: #420 Marvo76

Ok I dont know that one, is that buttocks?

I thought you were off to wash your scuzzy parts.

426 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:41:55pm

re: #416 Walter L. Newton

I said touche' I was giving you a point for your reference to giving apes human rights.

that was what I was refering to, I dropped the "e" at the end. I had thought you read the same article.

427 Marvo76  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:42:36pm

re: #425 MandyManners

I thought you were off to wash your scuzzy parts.

folks keep talking to me! but I am loggin out now and will be back in a few....

428 formercorpsman  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:42:59pm

re: #420 Marvo76

Yes, the slenderness of the derriere could be no other than ploome.

429 NY Nana  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:09pm

re: #383 MandyManners

Sad. I guess he never heard of (you should pardon the expression;) Google!

430 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:10pm

#385 Sharmuta writes: "No one here is denying that. Nor is anyone here arguing that it's some sort of a problem."

Many posts I have read - far too numerous to cite - indicate otherwise.

"What we are discussing is that ID is not science and doesn't belong in a science classroom, and that the people pushing ID are in bed with islamic creationists, which many of us (and you'd think all of us) have a problem with."

You state the obvious and then infer a false ulterior motive. Perhaps you should re-read what I wrote. My apologies in advance for any failure to properly elucidate my thoughts.

431 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:25pm

re: #427 Marvo76
Weet dreams to ya anyway! :)

432 ErnieG  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:26pm

re: #384 Charles

What Really Happened to the Dinosaurs? (DJ and Tracker John): John D. Morris, Ken Ham, Jonathan Chang.

Scroll down and read the reviews. They're a hoot!

433 Opilio  Sun, Jul 13, 2008 8:43:40pm