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Discovery Institute Shill Strikes Out

Mon, Jul 14, 2008 at 7:19:43 pm PDT

Note to Discovery Institute shill Casey Luskin:

To prevent future embarrassment when “critiquing” scientific papers, please look up the words you don’t understand.

The word “eponymous” means “named after.”

Missing The Wrist.

A couple weeks ago Louisiana passed a new science education act that promotes “critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning.” Along with the regular textbook, the law states, teachers “may use supplemental textbooks and other instructional materials to help students understand, analyze, critique, and review scientific theories in an objective manner.” The law “shall not be construed to promote any religious doctrine, promote discrimination for or against a particular set of religious beliefs, or promote discrimination for or against religion or nonreligion.”

What the law does not make clear, however, is how schools will determine whether the extra instructional material is good science or nonsense. There is nothing in the law that would keep a teacher from introducing a bogus non-argument about gravity and the revolution of the planets.

I was reminded of this sad fact when I read a post published today by Casey Luskin, a staffer at the Discovery Institute, an outfit that promotes intelligent design. Luskin has been one of the leaders of the Discovery Institute’s efforts to get so-called “academic freedom” bills passed in states around the country. He personally testified in Louisiana in favor of their new education bill. When he’s not busy with politics, Luskin writes posts at the Discovery Institute’s “Evolution News and Views” site, where he “critiques” research on evolutionary biology, claiming to find major flaws. But his critique make as much sense as the falling-or-revolving challenge to gravity.

The subject of the post is a 375-million-year-old fossil that helps reveal the transition of our ancestors from the water to land, known as Tiktaalik. I’ve written about Tiktaalik here, and you can get more details from the book Your Inner Fish, written by Neil Shubin, one of Tiktaalik’s discoverers. (Here’s a review I wrote in Nature.)

Luskin claims that Neil Shubin calls Tiktaalik a fish with a wrist, but “from what I can tell, Tiktaalik doesn’t have one.” The bulk of the post is taken up by Luskin’s fruitless search for a diagram or some other helpful information, either in Shubin’s book or the original papers. He is frustrated not to find a picture showing a wrist on Tiktaalik compared to the wrist of a tetrapod (a land vertebrate). This sort of “evidence” leads Luskin to conclude that Shubin has something to hide. “In the end, it’s no wonder Shubin chose not to provide a diagram comparing Tiktaalik’s fin-bones to the bones of a real tetrapod limb,” he writes.

Instead, Luskin is forced to read a scientific paper. He writes:

So we are left to decipher his jargon-filled written comparison in the following sentence by sentence analysis:

1. Shubin et al.: “The intermedium and ulnare of Tiktaalik have homologues to eponymous wrist bones of tetrapods with which they share similar positions and articular relations.” (Note: I have labeled the intermedium and ulnare of Tiktaalik in the diagram below.)

Translation: OK, then exactly which “wrist bones of tetrapods” are Tiktaalik’s bones homologous to? Shubin doesn’t say. This is a technical scientific paper, so a few corresponding “wrist bone”-names from tetrapods would seem appropriate. But Shubin never gives any.

Um...Shubin did give them. They are called the intermedium and ulnare. (I just double-checked, for example, in Vertebrates by Ken Kardong, on p.332.) Shubin and his colleagues found two bones in the limb of Tiktaalik that bear a number of similarities to the intermedium and ulnare in the tetrapod wrist–in terms of their arrangement with other limb bones, for example. That’s why Shubin and company refer to the bones in Tiktaalik’s limb by the same two names. They are homologous–in other words, their similarities are due to a common ancestry.

So Luskin wants to know what bones in the tetrapod limb are homologous to Tiktaalik’s intermedium and ulnare. The answer is...the intermedium and ulnare. He has unwittingly answered his own question. Now, perhaps Luskin got tripped up in Shubin’s “jargon-filled” writing. But that doesn’t change the facts–merely Luskin’s understanding of them.

I remain skeptical about the Discovery Institute’s version of “intelligent design,” but this story is pretty good evidence in favor of stupid design.

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596 comments

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1 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:22:08pm

Oh Darn!

2 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:22:42pm

OK, I have no problem with this:

“critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning.”

but I could do without everything else.

3 Shug  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:23:38pm
a 375-million-year-old fossil

But I thought the Earth was only 8000 years old?

/

4 doppelganglander  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:24:06pm

Sounds like Luskin did poorly in English as well as in science class.

5 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:24:49pm

No baffling with brilliance?

6 Liz Ard  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:25:24pm

these ID / DI threads will be the staple of LGF, it seems.

7 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:25:24pm

In the information age, there really isn't much of an excuse for not being able to look something up. Luskin should be embarrassed by himself.

8 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:25:31pm

re: #5 David IV of Georgia

No baffling with brilliance?

Brilliance from the D.I? Surely you jest, sir!

9 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:26:57pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

In the information age, there really isn't much of an excuse for not being able to look something up. Luskin should be embarrassed by himself.

The only excuse is when there is an agenda to push that would be distorted/destroyed by actually looking at the facts in the matter.

10 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:27:33pm

re: #2 lone_wolf_in_illinois

Anti-evolution 'Academic Freedom' Bills: What is Academic Freedom Anyway?

In the New Scientist story linked to above, Josh Rosenau of the National Center for Science Education points out that "if you look at the American Association of University Professors' definition of academic freedom, it refers to the ability to do research and publish." The whole point of academic freedom is, like tenure, to protect independent scholars and scientists from having their work suppressed, manipulated, or managed by administrators or other people outside the research community who might want to pressure scholars to alter their conclusions or not research unfavorable topics.

Claiming academic freedom in high school is not applicable.

11 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:27:40pm

PZ Meyers: "These clowns at the DI would be much funnier if more people would realize that they are performance artists with little talent and no expertise, except in lying and tripping over their own shoes."

12 LEGION  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:27:49pm

Hey, this is a big DISCOVERY for her then!

13 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:27:53pm
To say that Tiktaalik lacks a wrist because it doesn’t have all of the bones in a tetrapod limb is to misunderstand how evolution works.


Intentional misunderstanding is the hallmark of ID.

14 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:28:18pm
15 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:28:23pm

This is embarassing.

16 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:28:46pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

Touche! Forgot the environment in which it was applied to.

17 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:29:38pm

re: #15 MandyManners

This is embarassing.

Not to someone with at least an ounce of common sense and the native wit to exercise it.

18 eastvillageinfidel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:30:06pm

That's funny. I wonder what he thinks eponymous means.

19 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:30:38pm

PZ Myers has some nice comparative graphics.

20 huckfunn  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:31:32pm
I remain skeptical about the Discovery Institute’s version of “intelligent design,” but this story is pretty good evidence in favor of stupid design.

Bravo, Charles, Bravo! Mark Twain is winking and grinning from above.

21 DistantThunder  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:31:45pm

REpublicans evolved from lower life Democrats.

22 eclectic infidel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:33:18pm

re: #14 taxfreekiller

Democrats are the one major danger to all life on planet earth,
they and the msm will cause the end of all to include man kind, so in order for man kind to learn the final answer and be able to continue to evolve and or come to see the judgment day in peace, get our country and the world safe from commie Democrats.

first things first.

Even more dangerous than Saudis flying planes into buildings?

Your post is a shallow one, devoid of any value.

23 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:33:36pm

The D.I. folk sure are proving that intelligence is vastly over-rated.

24 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:33:57pm

re: #17 FurryOldGuyJeans

Not to someone with at least an ounce of common sense and the native wit to exercise it.

I am just about always embarassed to see such ignorance in print.

25 kafir  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:33:59pm

Charles, I think they would lose it on "Homologs", never mind "eponymous".

I can't wait for an Emily Litella moment when they start bashing "gay homologs".

Let me get some popcorn, this should be fun to watch.

/sarc

26 hazzyday  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:34:48pm

One of my favorite radio talk show hosts joins the DI as a senior fellow.

[Link: www.discovery.org...]

I'm pretty sure he is not a young earther. I would like to hear him interview Ken Miller.

27 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:34:57pm

By the way, if you like this post, please hit the 'plus' button on it. It drives the creationists nuts.

28 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:35:06pm

re: #23 FurryOldGuyJeans

The D.I. folk sure are proving that intelligence is vastly over-rated.

I think Lilly Tomlin had it right, the search for intelligent life in the universe, goes on.

29 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:35:10pm

For cryin' out loud. If you don't understand the meaning of a word...LOOK IT UP! sheesh. I do the sunday NYT crossword in pen and some folks around here make me go to the dictionary!

30 lone_wolf_in_illinois  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:35:35pm

re: #21 DistantThunder

REpublicans evolved from lower life Democrats.

I resemble and am deeply offended by that comment! (I used to pride myself on saying that I voted for J.J. in the demonRat primaries when I first voted.)

31 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:35:49pm

re: #27 Charles

By the way, if you like this post, please hit the 'plus' button on it. It drives the creationists nuts.

You are one wicked and evil person, Charles. I like it! ;)

32 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:36:00pm

The eponymous bones are obviously the three little bones in the eponym, the tiny organ that allows creationists to hear the voices in their heads.

33 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:36:15pm
jargon-filled

Was he actually expecting a scientific paper to be written in the style of Dr. Seuss or something? Does he not own a dictionary? When I've been reading these sorts of "jargon-filled" reports and papers lately, I look up the "jargon" I'm confused about. What a snide adjective to use- they really do want to dumb down science.

34 Liz Ard  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:36:24pm

re: #27 Charles

By the way, if you like this post, please hit the 'plus' button on it. It drives the creationists nuts.


and by contrast, if you don't really like this thread, you can hit the - button.

It may drive others nuts, or not.

35 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:36:50pm

Are Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

36 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:37:05pm

re: #34 Liz Ard

and by contrast, if you don't really like this thread, you can hit the - button.

It may drive others nuts, or not.

Sure, if you'd rather believe liars, please do hit the minus button.

37 lifeofthemind  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:37:52pm

Reminds me of when I was in High School and spent a Summer murdering mice in a lab at a nearby college. For fun I was invited to witness a PhD candidates oral defense. It was horrifying, a real train wreck that is seared, absolutely seared into my memory. The deer in the headlights look on the poor sap's face when a Professor asked "But I don't understand, why are you doing this?"

38 Liz Ard  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:38:12pm

re: #36 Charles

Sure, if you'd rather believe liars, please do hit the minus button.

it really isn't about liking liars, it's about whether or not I want to spend my time reading more and more about the obvious.

39 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:38:13pm

re: #33 Sharmuta

Meyers has it right when he calls them performance artists. They're lawyers performing for their jury out in the world, and turning this into a battle between the jargon-using eggheads and the honest common folks.

40 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:38:14pm

re: #32 Shiplord Kirel

The eponymous bones are obviously the three little bones in the eponym, the tiny organ that allows creationists to hear the voices in their heads.

I think they connect to the sanctimonious bones, now hear the word of the Lord!

41 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:38:21pm

re: #27 Charles

By the way, if you like this post, please hit the 'plus' button on it. It drives the creationists nuts.

I'm a Creationist but, I believe that God used whatever God wanted.

I'll decline.

42 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:38:35pm

Ya think Luskin could have done well with a science class or two? Hopefully our children will do better...

I just posted this on a dead thread, but I find it odd that they would include "critical thinking" in their definition. Critical thinking does not mean that all criticisms are valid. Critical thinking is based on reason and evidence. Discussion of critical thinking or controversies does not mean giving equal weight to ideas that lack essential supporting evidence. Science isn't just about finding out why this does that. It teaches your brain to think.

Reason and evidence.

43 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:39:20pm

re: #33 Sharmuta
Thing is, it isn't jargon filled. It is filled with the language used to describe palentology/biology. You wouldn't write a technical paper on electronics using verbage meant for another field. What a loon.

44 illegal upchuck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:40:01pm

re: #6 Liz Ard

these ID / DI threads will be the staple of LGF, it seems.

Regrettably...

45 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:40:16pm

re: #38 Liz Ard
There are lots more threads.

46 Liz Ard  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:40:33pm

re: #44 illegal upchuck

Regrettably...

careful, you're 1/2 step away from being blocked / banned.

47 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:40:34pm

re: #38 Liz Ard

it really isn't about liking liars, it's about whether or not I want to spend my time reading more and more about the obvious.

So it's obvious to you that the Discovery Institute is promoting a dishonest agenda to push religion into science classes? Glad to hear that.

48 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:40:37pm

re: #38 Liz Ard

it really isn't about liking liars, it's about whether or not I want to spend my time reading more and more about the obvious.

You can't move on to another post?

49 huckfunn  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:40:37pm

re: #27 Charles

How much nuttier can they get?

50 doppelganglander  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:41:05pm

Where's the button for saying I believe God created the world, that life has changed and developed via evolution, but I'm quite sure I can't prove it scientifically (the part about God, that is)?

51 Liz Ard  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:41:13pm

re: #45 pingjockey

There are lots more threads.

I realize that, and I will move along quickly.

52 snowcrash  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:41:37pm

Luskin could not understand a "scientific paper" and "scientific terms" but his intelligence and judgement concerning biological matters are to be accepted? C'mon get some grasp of the material.

53 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:42:19pm

I remember an old Peter O'Toole film (a comedy) called "Creator" where he is a Noble Laureate geneticist trying to clone his dead wife. He dragoons a grad student into helping him in his illegal quest. One line that has stayed with me is where O'Toole and the student are on the roof of O'Toole's house one night and O'Toole's character muses:

"One day science is going to peer over the crest of the mountain, it will find that religion has been sitting there all along."

I know it's overly-simplistic, but I look on the whole evolution/creationism debate they way Ian McKellan views the never-ending dispute of the authorship of Shakespeare's plays.


"Either they were written by Shakespeare, or someone calling himself Shakespeare."

The universe works too well for it to have all come together by random chance. So, it was either made by God or someone calling himself God. The disputed patent over the design of the universe, like the dispute over whether it was Marlowe, de Vere, or the glove-maker's son from Stratford does not prevent me from marveling at its complexity and beauty.

54 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:42:33pm

re: #46 Liz Ard

careful, you're 1/2 step away from being blocked / banned.

Closer than that.

55 abolitionist  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:43:05pm

New legal threat to teaching evolution in the US 09 July 2008
Excerpts:

The Dover trial, during which Forrest presented evidence that ID was old-fashioned creationism by another name (New Scientist, 29 October 2005, p 6), revolved around the question of whether ID was science or religion. Jones determined it was the latter, and ruled in favour of the parents who challenged the Dover board on the basis of the provision for separation of church and state in the US constitution.

The strategy being employed in Louisiana by proponents of ID - including the Seattle-based Discovery Institute - is more subtle and potentially more difficult to challenge. Instead of trying to prove that ID is science, they have sought to bestow on teachers the right to introduce non-scientific alternatives to evolution under the banner of "academic freedom".
[snip]
“It's very slick...The religious right has co-opted the terminology of the progressive left”

56 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:43:20pm

DAMNIT! IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE ID THREADS DON"T COME ABOARD AND POST. quitcher bitchin'!

57 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:44:07pm

<LOL>  Wotta maroon, wotta ignoranemous ...

}:)     [Bugs!]

58 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:44:18pm

The dingers are really rushing to hit this one.

59 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:44:40pm

re: #43 pingjockey

Thing is, it isn't jargon filled. It is filled with the language used to describe palentology/biology. You wouldn't write a technical paper on electronics using verbage meant for another field. What a loon.

I think his using that term is supposed to be intended as a smear, as though scientists are somehow being elitists in using scientific language in a scientific paper. It's absurd and insulting.

60 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:45:43pm

re: #59 Sharmuta
I think so too.
The dingers are at it again. I have had enough, had to shout earlier.

61 eastvillageinfidel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:45:54pm

re: #57 Kulhwch

An eponymous ignoranemous ?

62 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:45:55pm

re: #41 MandyManners

I'm a Creationist but, I believe that God used whatever God wanted.

I'll decline.

I don't see this as anything that will cause a "crisis of faith" for me. Science will eventually sort out whether the earth is 8K or billions of years old and whether species were all created as they are or whether evolution was responsible. What is annoying is people who think they have to baffle the masses with BS brilliance to push a political/religious agenda masquerading as something else. Admit you ID people believe in God and want that taught in schools. It won't fly, but it is honest.

63 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:46:12pm

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interest in paying for people to whine about me.

64 The Other Les  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:46:19pm

Funny, something I just wrote concerning the Left basically applies to this idiot as well:

We should not be surprised by the existence and degree of insane or outright stupid behavior on the part of those who deem themselves superior to us mere mortals. The illusion of superiority allows the parasites who make up the Left (and National Socialists are Leftists) to exempt themselves from the rules of the Society of Consent that is the foundation of Western Civilization.

So necessary is the illusion of authority to the parasite that he will invent facts and rewrite reality to create it. Thus the idiot who denied the existence of mustard gas.

The fact of the matter is that Leftists lie. They lie to themselves. They lie to each other. And whether they intend to or not they lie to us.

On obvious consequence of this phenomena is that rational debate with a Leftist is simply impossible.


Some people need to be seen as authorities, and thus obeyed, because their lives depend on it.

65 lifeofthemind  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:46:21pm

Nor everyone has the same elomocutionary skills.

66 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:46:35pm
67 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:46:56pm

re: #55 abolitionist

Explore Evolution, published last year, represents the latest chapter in the story. It makes no mention of intelligent design but presents the same general argument - namely, that some features of life are too complex and too tailored to their environment to have arisen by natural selection - and presents evolution as an unresolved debate with credible alternatives.

One excerpt from the book's introductory chapter reads: "Looking at the evidence and comparing the competing explanations will provide the most reliable path to discovering which theory, if any, gives the best account of the evidence at hand. Making the comparison is your job. We're asking you to be part scientist, part detective, and part juror."


Aha! I knew they weren't going to try Pandas and People again.

68 Shug  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:47:13pm

It never ceases to amaze me that people bitch about these ID threads. Yet they spend hours on them.

There are so many other things one can read on this blog. Hundreds of hours exploring archives, the flippy triangles, etc. so I can't for the life of me figure out why people continue to bitch and then hang out here all night. I think they kust like to complain

We've become a nation of whiners

69 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:47:20pm

re: #63 Charles
What?! Haven't been there in a while. Good thing I guess, I would've caused a bar brawl! :)

70 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:47:39pm

re: #58 Charles

The dingers are really rushing to hit this one.

You did kinda throw down the gage and served up a challenge. One that does deserve being served IMO, though. Do wish the dingers would deign to participate in discussion and not just be anonymous dingers.

71 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:47:47pm

And now the irreducible comlexity of Led Zepplin's "Traveling Riverside Blues".

72 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:47:53pm

re: #53 calcajun

That was pretty groovy, particularly that you're quoting Gandalf lol

I mentioned this (maybe once, twice, thrice) but you may enjoy reading Gerald Schroeder, a scientist who puts the two together pretty well. [Link: www.geraldschroeder.com...]

73 beachkatie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:47:56pm

The Cary woman jogger missing since Saturday, Body was found in a creek. She had two small daughters. My prays are with the family tonight..

74 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:47:58pm

re: #38 Liz Ard

it really isn't about liking liars, it's about whether or not I want to spend my time reading more and more about the obvious.

As if daily threads about the dangers of islam or obama aren't obvious. Come on- what's the real reason?

*Please note- I like the daily threads about islam & obama, Charles!

75 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:48:36pm
"a bogus non-argument about gravity"

What is the bogus non-argument about gravity?

76 unclassifiable  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:48:50pm

Let's get down to brass tacks here.

The universe works too well for it to have all come together by random chance.

Let's take a part of that universe...

Child Molesters

Intelligently Designed?

77 snowcrash  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:49:10pm

I am sorry, I always forget to rate the post. Thanks for the reminder!

78 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:49:15pm

re: #63 Charles

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interest in paying for people to whine about me.

Oh no! Say it isn't so! I haven't seen that!

79 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:49:25pm

re: #75 Mich-again
Gravity sucks!

80 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:49:31pm

re: #63 Charles

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interest in paying for people to whine about me.

I never saw any of that when I was in the lounge, but you are paying for the party.

81 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:50:08pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

"some features of life are too complex and too tailored to their environment"
Somehow it doesn't occur to them how arrogant it is to be the one who makes the judgment of what is too complex.

82 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:50:16pm

re: #78 marjoriemoon

It was on display this last weekend.

83 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:50:32pm

re: #76 unclassifiable

Let's get down to brass tacks here.

Let's take a part of that universe...

Child Molesters

Intelligently Designed?

Theology has an answer to that. But then again, that is religion, not science.

84 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:50:39pm

re: #78 marjoriemoon

re: #80 FurryOldGuyJeans

I'm retired navy. Let's go start a fight!

85 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:50:46pm

re: #63 Charles

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interest in paying for people to whine about me.

Some bitched about the VB stuff too, but plenty set them straight.

86 phoenixgirl  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:51:07pm

re: #63 Charles

please don't close the lounge

87 The Other Les  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:51:26pm

re: #76 unclassifiable

Let's get down to brass tacks here.

Let's take a part of that universe...

Child Molesters

Intelligently Designed?

They will jsut say that child molesters were just corrupted by Stan.

Was Satan intelligently designed?

Why not?

88 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:51:43pm

re: #72 marjoriemoon

Thanks.

I don't mean to slam anyone who hold to evolution. Nor do I really agree with the ID people, either. It's just that we've only been digging into the fossil record for about two centuries now and we have, literally, just scratched the surface. There's a whole lot out there yet to be discovered and it's too soon for anyone to get huffy and dogmatic.

89 lifeofthemind  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:51:52pm

re: #63 Charles

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interesting in paying for people to whine about me.

Damn Sir, I know this is on some level a business but it is supposed to be a pleasure for you also. First you are driven to stop the bicycle and photo blogging and now this. I never have used the lounge but I hate to see the bastards win. You know that we can't let the disciples of anger take over, That is part of what you are fighting. You are the technical expert here. Hope you can come up with an answer that gets things back to your vision.

90 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:51:55pm

re: #82 Sharmuta

It was on display this last weekend.

I come and go myself, but I enjoy the discussions and there are so many who defend Charles, tooth and nail. Some days are better than others, true, but as a whole the group is extremely supportive!

91 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:51:59pm

re: #63 Charles

The lounge was bad for my ADHD.

92 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:52:22pm

re: #63 Charles

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interesting in paying for people to whine about me.

I just posted that in the Lounge.

93 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:53:17pm

re: #22 eclectic infidel

Even more dangerous than Saudis flying planes into buildings?

Your post is a shallow one, devoid of any value.

Not so. One can make a pretty good case that, if Slick Willie had been thinking with the proper head, Osama Bin laden would have been neutralized before he could have set the 9/11 plot into action.

94 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:54:10pm
95 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:54:13pm

Man, I had no idea that anything as dopey and obvious as this ID scam ran so emotionally deep. Astonishing really. Just shows to go 'ya I guess.

96 unclassifiable  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:55:03pm

re: #87 The Other Les

So now we have 2 heads of intelligent design -- one "evil" and one "good".

This will be fascinating.

97 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:55:20pm

re: #81 jaunte

I'm just checking out the list of authors. Pretty much all of them are Disco Institute shills.

98 hazzyday  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:55:23pm

Poll:

Is the discovery institute an evolved group of troofers who wish to enable anything but reality?

-or-

Is the discovery institute a repository of intellect and knowledge that people should benefit from by being acquainted with it?

yec me not.

99 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:55:39pm

re: #47 Charles

I can almost hear glee in there somewhere!

}:)     [Thanks for another lovely evening's diversion, Charles.  Will we need spatter clothes tonight?]

100 Anna  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:55:51pm

re: #63 Charles

Please do not close the Lounge Charles. I find the Lounge more personal that posts and I enjoy meeting the people in the Lounge and finding out about them. Though some are a bit sticky but that is like life.

Since I have been MIA more often than online past two weeks I can not vouch for that time in regrads to kvetching on ID/Darwin. But other times I don't really recall vociferous debate on such. Though since you have the logs of what goes on, you have a better feel.

If you close the Lounge, I will still post but some of the fun will be removed from being online. I am sorry some are ruining it for you, but please do not extend the ruin to others who are not part of it. Thanks for letting me get taht off my chest. Phew.

101 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:56:15pm

re: #87 The Other Les

They will jsut say that child molesters were just corrupted by Stan.

Was Satan intelligently designed?

Why not?

He was the highest and best of creation. He was created with free will*. He chose badly. (cf Bible, Isaiah 14)

*Rush Free Will

102 irongrampa  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:56:31pm

Haven't been in the lounge lately, just lucky to be able to do a drive-by post here, it'd be a shame to close it, Charles, way too many decent people frequent it.

Would it be apropriate if the regulars kinda did a self police to reduce the incidents you complained about?

103 hazzyday  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:57:26pm

re: #66 taxfreekiller

Border Patrol officers Ramos and Compean are still in federal lock up,
18 min a week on the phone to family, solitaire, and this Wed. the drug dealer they attempted to arrest with 743 lbs of mj when they unknowing shot him in the butt, he is going on trial for one of the two times he smuggled drugs into the U.S.A., he did his smuggling with a
"gold card border pass" given him by Johnny Sutton the evil little gofer who kept the jury in the dark at trial about De Villa being on a drug run when shot and about the arrest for the other drug runs.

Just so's you know about the real ugly shit going on in your name.

U.S. Justice Dept. is you American citizens.

This is one of the big Republican screwups..... A Bush pardon is needed. But if I remember correctly there is a crony at work here.

104 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:57:31pm

re: #86 phoenixgirl

please don't close the lounge

I second that, Charles.

105 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:57:32pm

It's a really great group of folks and gads, I argue with them about a lot of stuff! Charles, spend a few nights coming in anonymously and you'll see. I would hate to see it go.

Sharm, you have have seen something the other day that you misunderstood. We were talking about Gov Charlie Crist at that time, not CHrist.

106 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:58:19pm

re: #50 doppelganglander

Where's the button for saying I believe God created the world, that life has changed and developed via evolution, but I'm quite sure I can't prove it scientifically (the part about God, that is)?

Most of us who accept the fact of evolution would not have a problem with that

107 snowcrash  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:58:25pm

I hate to see Charles take a lot of crap on his own site but many longtime lizards enjoy the Lounge. I haven't really had the chance to hang there but I like knowing it's around.

108 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:58:46pm

If gravity can stop light can it stop time?

109 Purple Prose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:58:51pm

Man according to ID:

[Link: www.success.co.il...]

Man according to reality:

[Link: ephemerist.files.wordpress.com...]

Which is more realistic?

110 lifeofthemind  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:59:23pm

Perhaps a system of verified membership with certain privileges of access to some areas would be a good idea? or not?

111 unclassifiable  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 7:59:54pm

Why the hell would anyone design Stan?

Why not just design good things?

In fact you really need no design at all to make things suck -- just anti-design it -- just throw some crap together and see what happens. It will go to suck pretty quick won't it?

112 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:00:01pm

re: #71 Dirk Diggler

And now the irreducible comlexity of Led Zepplin's "Traveling Riverside Blues".

It's been at least a decade since I heard that!

113 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:00:07pm

re: #110 lifeofthemind

Perhaps a system of verified membership with certain privileges of access to some areas would be a good idea? or not?

Isn't that what registration is?

114 Spytalk  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:00:20pm

There's nothing intelligent about believing that carbon dating is accurate. Carbon dating is like using an elementary school ruler to measure the width of the entire country. The decay rate is non-linear, and we have only a small snapshot in time to reference, the accuracy is way off. There are many many influences that make carbon dating inaccurate. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does Intelligent Design. Both should be presented in public education. I could go on, but I'm a busy guy at the moment.

115 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:00:31pm

I have only been in the lounge once that I recall and it moved way to fast for me. However, why not just eject the troublemakers rather than close the pool?

116 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:00:45pm

re: #108 Mich-again
Theory of Relativity says yes. IIRC, the closer to the event horizon of a black hole you get time slows. Now I don't know if it just relative to you in your ship,(would think so).

117 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:00:55pm
118 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:01:15pm

Strikes me that if one is a dope, then said dope should be whacked and not the medium. This from one old cat who finds the lounge too fast and thus intimidating!

119 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:01:35pm

Folks, I don't have time to police the Lounge. I've been paying a yearly fee to keep it open, but it's turned into something I didn't intend. And when I look at the logs I see a whole lot of people who take it for granted and feel free to bash me.

If I want to pay to be bashed, I can find that elsewhere.

120 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:01:59pm

re: #114 Spytalk
Nice. Drive by bomb throwing.

121 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:02:04pm

OT

The success of the surge in Iraq has exceeded all expectation. Most of this is attributable to Gen. Petraeus's leadership and advanced counter-insurgency tactics, as well as to President Bush's willingness to give him a chance.
I have good reason to believe, however, that some remarkable technical innovations may have had a role.

122 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:02:25pm

re: #106 Alberta Oil Peon

I suppose one of the problems that rankles the ID people would be your use of the word "fact" of evolution versus "theory".

There's still a bunch of stuff we don't know. Both sides have to keep open minds.

123 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:02:35pm

re: #114 Spytalk

Good grief.

124 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:02:52pm

re: #63 Charles

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interest in paying for people to whine about me.

Charles, I sincerely hope you do not do that. I visit the Lounge quite frequently, but usually in the later hours, and honestly, I have seen nothing of this science-bashing of which you speak. Maybe the day-time crowd and the early-evening crowd is a lot different from the late-nighters?

125 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:02:53pm

re: #114 Spytalk

There's nothing intelligent about believing that carbon dating is accurate. Carbon dating is like using an elementary school ruler to measure the width of the entire country. The decay rate is non-linear, and we have only a small snapshot in time to reference, the accuracy is way off. There are many many influences that make carbon dating inaccurate. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does Intelligent Design. Both should be presented in public education. I could go on, but I'm a busy guy at the moment.

This is complete crap.

126 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:04:15pm

Spytalk: No. of comments posted: 13.

127 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:04:22pm

re: #119 Charles
It must go on like the dinging on the dead threads, cause I haven't seen it. It sucks ass that some of our lizards have that little respect for you.

128 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:04:23pm

re: #119 Charles

And if you have to pay to be bashed, they should at least be wearing leather.

Ooops. Did I say that. Damn internal editor is on the fritz again.

129 Carridine  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:04:28pm

re #63: Dropping the Hammer

I have seen firsthand and vicariously the BAD effects of over-programming one's inputs (that is, FILTERING our PERCEPTUAL OPTIONS) and at first blush took Charles' decision to be a self-sabotaging step...

But a few moments' reflection helped me see several distinctions in this case:
1) LGF gives people a fair chance to state a NEW position; and
2) LGF gives people the chance to perform due diligence; and
3) LGF has NO obligation to answer ANY question to the asker's satisfaction; and
4) LGF is in pursuit of happiness*, NOT assuagement of personal pains and the protection or prolonging of personal OR COLLECTIVE ignorance

Therefore, in view of the limited lifetimes available to all who contribute here by posting, commenting or lurk-reading, it is a very rational and positive decision to quickly filter OUT those who, for whatever reasons, show themselves to be unwilling or unable to state a NEW position; or do their due diligence; or STOP demanding personal satisfaction; or continue to insist on displaying personal ignorance and stubbornness here, publicly and discourteously.

* Charles Johnson's happiness. Period.

130 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:04:29pm

re: #61 eastvillageinfidel

An asynchronous eponymous ignoranemous ?

}:)     [ >< }}}'> sacred symbol or transitional fossil?]

131 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:05:03pm

re: #114 Spytalk

Carbon dating is like using an elementary school ruler to measure the width of the entire country.

But you could still get a good estimate.

132 formercorpsman  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:05:18pm

re: #121 Shiplord Kirel

Another point of interest I saw some time ago, was the use of biometrics with a hand-held among the population.

Truly mind-blowing stuff.

133 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:05:24pm

re: #114 Spytalk

There's nothing intelligent about believing that carbon dating is accurate. Carbon dating is like using an elementary school ruler to measure the width of the entire country. The decay rate is non-linear, and we have only a small snapshot in time to reference, the accuracy is way off. There are many many influences that make carbon dating inaccurate. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does Intelligent Design. Both should be presented in public education. I could go on, but I'm a busy guy at the moment.

And your data to support such an outlandish statement?

134 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:05:26pm

re: #123 The Shadow Do
see my 120

135 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:06:09pm

re: #127 pingjockey

Any guy that does what Charles does, puts up with the grief from the nutroots as well as some of the folks here deserves more than respect. The man's a true soldier for the conservative cause.

136 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:06:10pm

re: #127 pingjockey

It must go on like the dinging on the dead threads, cause I haven't seen it. It sucks ass that some of our lizards have that little respect for you.

Yes- it does suck- but some are not above using Charles' hard work, time and money against him. That sucks ass even more.

137 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:06:29pm

Geeze... the lizard lounge is one of the few pleasant havens that I have, when I'm struggling through a long lonely evening.

Why do we all have to lose the lounge because of the inconsiderate behavior of a few, Charles?

Why not simply assign a volunteer moderator or two? I'm an experienced Para Chat mod and would be more than happy to help out, as I sit home alone most evenings.

Please reconsider.

138 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:06:36pm

re: #114 Spytalk

Both should be presented in public education. I could go on, but I'm a busy guy at the moment.

Whose version of ID would be taught in school? Your religion's... my religion's? Maybe some Islamic teaching. Perhaps a hybrid version like a "ID Stew"? I for one don't want the TEA in charge of religious education.

139 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:06:38pm

re: #133 FurryOldGuyJeans

"Both should be presented in public education." = Current DI political position and talking point.

140 unclassifiable  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:06:39pm

re: #114 Spytalk

Intelligent Design is like getting all the benefits of science without thinking.

141 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:06:42pm

re: #134 pingjockey

see my 120

Right on Ping.

142 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:07:19pm

re: #135 calcajun
Truth is Charles coin and some of these asshats don't like it.

143 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:07:21pm

re: #122 calcajun

I suppose one of the problems that rankles the ID people would be your use of the word "fact" of evolution versus "theory".

There's still a bunch of stuff we don't know. Both sides have to keep open minds.

Evolution itself is an observable fact, and even before Darwin, students of paleontology were conscious of the fact that the nature of living things on Earth had changed over time.

Darwin's theory of Natural Selection proposed a mechanism to explain how evolution came about.

Just another of the many things the ID types either fail to understand, or deliberately ignore.

144 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:07:27pm
145 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:07:31pm

Is there a good article to read as a starting point for the arguments ID proponents make, and the counter-arguments for the anti-ID crowd.

I'm on the science/evolution side of the issue, but I haven't done more than grazed through a thread or two on the subject.

146 kafir  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:07:33pm

re: #37 lifeofthemind

I remember mine.

Think ... well ... hazing.

A right of passage.

Their last chance to verbally "bugger" you before you go out into the world.

Yeah, it is like that.

My revenge was earning way more money than them in the first 4 years I was out in industry.

147 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:07:44pm

re: #136 Sharmuta
Too true. Now I'm pissed.

148 Carridine  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:07:47pm
protection or prolonging of personal OR COLLECTIVE ignorance


shoulda been

protection or prolonging of personal puerile positions
149 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:07:55pm

re: #138 theparson

Whose version of ID would be taught in school? Your religion's... my religion's? Maybe some Islamic teaching. Perhaps a hybrid version like a "ID Stew"? I for one don't want the TEA in charge of religious education.

"Hybrid ID Stew". I like that. Appropriate.

150 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:07:55pm

re: #133 FurryOldGuyJeans

Its either an IDer or a sock puppet Moby trying to make IDers look even stupider.

151 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:08:55pm

re: #139 jaunte

"Both should be presented in public education." = Current DI political position and talking point.

I know that. I was kvetching about his carbon decay is variable turdish. Guess I forgot to make that clear, sorry. :)

152 nyc redneck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:09:07pm

luskin is so locked into his own agenda, he either could not see the information before him or he was trying to dismiss it by confusing the issue, hoping the people he was trying to reach wouldn't know the difference.

153 lifeofthemind  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:09:15pm

My idea is on the order of $20 a year to screen out the noise.

154 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:09:30pm

re: #114 Spytalk

Uh, guy,

As much as I might agree with your sentiments, it's bad form to toss a grenade like that in here and run away. You ought to stick around for some of the inevitable push-back.

Remember, opinions are only as good as the facts on which they are based.

155 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:10:10pm

re: #145 SeafoodGumbo

This (at Google books) is a good resource:
[Link: books.google.com...]

156 Suzette  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:11:20pm

re: #142 pingjockey

Truth is Charles coin and some of these asshats don't like it.

If they don't like it why even post anything here? This is Charle's Blog.
No one elses. If you don't like ID threads don't read them. Period and simple.

157 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:11:22pm

i notice that the majority of the time the majority of the people in the lounge are people who rarely or never post on the main pages. The few times I see a decent amount of regulars in the lounge is when the banning stick is out or some other major disturbance in the force.

158 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:11:31pm

Okay, you buncha over educated lizards, how accurate is carbon dating and do we have a better more refined version of carbon dating?
I know it will give you plus/minus x amount of years, how big is the spread?

159 finnagain  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:11:50pm

Hah. Schmucks never seem to remember the proper order of things.

1. Engage brain
2. Theeeeeeeeeeeen open mouth.

"I don't know what the hell I'm talking about, but I'm sure you'll be impressed at how difficult I can make things."

It's funny that those who often are loudest about the need for 'academic freedom' wouldn't recognize an intellectual endeavor if it clobbered them over the head. In fact, that's generally what we see happening. The true mark of a moron is that they don't even have the decency to be embarrassed, let alone shamed into silence, when their own glaring stupidity is pointed out to them. Does anybody really think that this will stop the Disco Freaks from babbling about things beyond their ken? On the internet? The internet was pretty much made for ignorant babblers to talk above their experience, and the Disco Freaks are just riding the wave.

Can't say enough about engaging that ol' brain before folks decide to yap.

160 mossley  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:12:56pm

re: #9 FurryOldGuyJeans

The only excuse is when there is an agenda to push that would be distorted/destroyed by actually looking at the facts in the matter.

Or it's simply the guy isn't nearly as smart as he thinks. (Real stretch of the imagination there, I know!) I deal with that type all the time, constantly misusing/using the wrong words in technical reports. They're convinced they know what they're talking about, and it's like pulling teeth getting them to look at a definition of the word they're abusing.

There is also a deliberate ignorance required to buy into their arguments, as the flaws, mistakes and downright lies have been pointed out numerous times, but they stick to it.

161 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:12:59pm

Would ID be something that lonely smart people try on at cocktail parties to pick up the woman in the little black dress with the bob haircut and the cosmo/man in navy slacks with a purple vertical stripe and an Amstel Light?

Does it work?

162 lifeofthemind  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:13:00pm

re: #146 kafir

I remember mine.

Think ... well ... hazing.

A right of passage.

Their last chance to verbally "bugger" you before you go out into the world.

Yeah, it is like that.

My revenge was earning way more money than them in the first 4 years I was out in industry.

You do not expect a train wreck at one of these. After candidates usually claim the panel hadn't really read the thing and they get called Doctor and taken out for drinks. That one I saw was horrible, like hearing something go squish.

163 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:13:02pm

re: #156 Suzette
That is what we've be discussing. Way back up thread I shouted at some of the folks bitchin' about the ID threads. If they don't like 'em, don't read 'em.

164 Shug  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:13:16pm

I haven't visited the lounge in over a year

165 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:13:46pm
So we are left to decipher his jargon-filled [emphasis added] written comparison in the following sentence by sentence analysis:

The whole world of work, including science, uses jargon. The army has its own jargon. Plumbers have their own jargon. Why shouldn't science have its jargon?

Luskin is playing to the peanut gallery. He hopes that his readers think scientific argument should be put forward in plain, unvarnished English, not using any big words or long sentences. He probably expects that his readers will not, or cannot, read anything more involved. To them, in his view, jargon is befuddling, and if they are befuddled, they will find solace in his insinuation that their befuddlement is the result of a deliberate attempt by the scientist to muddy the waters.

166 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:13:57pm

re: #161 brainwizard73

that should have said purple vertical striped shirt...

PIMF.

167 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:14:12pm

re: #114 Spytalk

There's nothing intelligent about believing that carbon dating is accurate. Carbon dating is like using an elementary school ruler to measure the width of the entire country. The decay rate is non-linear, and we have only a small snapshot in time to reference, the accuracy is way off. There are many many influences that make carbon dating inaccurate. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does Intelligent Design. Both should be presented in public education. I could go on, but I'm a busy guy at the moment.

Yep, digging up discredited arguments against evolution sure can take a toll on one.

168 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:14:51pm

re: #167 Alberta Oil Peon
13 posts.

169 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:15:05pm

re: #163 pingjockey

True.

The flip of that is that people shouldn't take ID stuff on active threads and pollute every other subsequent thread for 5 hours with ID stuff, right?

170 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:15:13pm

#35 MandyManners 7/14/08 7:36:50 pm reply quote 0

Are Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

171 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:15:40pm

re: #143 Alberta Oil Peon

What is the difference between a trait that is an "adaptation" and an "evolutionary step"? Seriously, I have heard both terms used interchangeably and I do not know if there is a substantive difference.

Honestly, there's too much going on in my world to get embroiled in this study. But for the scientists who can devote their time to delving into this discussion, it's a matter of faith for both sides of the spectrum. In other words, most of us know just enough to be really dangerous on this subject)

172 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:15:41pm

re: #167 Alberta Oil Peon

"I'm a busy guy; busier than a one-armed quote miner."

173 Suzette  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:15:48pm

re: #163 pingjockey

Yes....I was only concurring your point. By the time I got through it...my comment came out slow! Natch! :)

174 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:15:48pm

re: #169 brainwizard73
I will agree with that!

175 beachkatie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:16:23pm

Weet dreams lizards. Be sweet!:)

176 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:16:40pm

Ah man.... I am totally bummed out now.

And I was having a good day, too.

177 Purple Prose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:16:55pm

ID has been debunked. Get over it.re: #114 Spytalk

There's nothing intelligent about believing that carbon dating is accurate. Carbon dating is like using an elementary school ruler to measure the width of the entire country. The decay rate is non-linear, and we have only a small snapshot in time to reference, the accuracy is way off. There are many many influences that make carbon dating inaccurate. It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does Intelligent Design. Both should be presented in public education. I could go on, but I'm a busy guy at the moment.

This is a canard. Carbon-14 is not used as a dating technique on fossils. It is only accurate on more recent (up to 60,000 year old things), so it is used in archeology and anthropology. No evolutionary scientist uses it. There are other tools that are used for fossils and DNA sequence analysis and other scientific approaches that look at how very old things are related to one another.

Get the facts straight before you post on strawmen. This only shows that you didn't bother to look into the facts or just took a quick talking point from the ID/creationism brigade that relies on willful or ignorant misrepresentations of science to make "arguments."

178 phoenixgirl  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:17:14pm

re: #176 Irish Rose

me too

179 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:17:14pm

re: #173 Suzette
I hate when that happens. Happens to me in the lounge all the time, look away for 2 minutes and the topic is something 180 out from where it was!

180 Suzette  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:17:17pm

re: #163 pingjockey

I was also including the Lounge too.

181 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:17:19pm

Ah, dinner beckons.

Off to watch some movies with the family.

Night y'all.

182 lifeofthemind  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:17:34pm

Good night ladies

183 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:17:45pm

re: #176 Irish Rose

Ah man.... I am totally bummed out now.

And I was having a good day, too.

Thanks for your offer to moderate. I'll give it some thought.

184 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:17:54pm

re: #176 Irish Rose

Don't worry, just run out like I did and get yourself a copy of the New Yorker for your den/office. The cover is an instant classic.

185 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:18:35pm

re: #180 Suzette
Mwahaha! True.

186 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:19:39pm

re: #171 calcajun

What is the difference between a trait that is an "adaptation" and an "evolutionary step"? Seriously, I have heard both terms used interchangeably and I do not know if there is a substantive difference.

Honestly, there's too much going on in my world to get embroiled in this study. But for the scientists who can devote their time to delving into this discussion, it's a matter of faith for both sides of the spectrum. In other words, most of us know just enough to be really dangerous on this subject)

You were doing just fine up to that point.

187 mossley  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:19:49pm

re: #38 Liz Ard

it really isn't about liking liars, it's about whether or not I want to spend my time reading more and more about the obvious.

No one is forcing you to stay. If you don't like what Charles posts on his blog, go away. Really, no one will force you to read things you don't want to. Shoo. Run along. Scat.

188 Purple Prose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:20:05pm

The ID/creationist people remind me of flat-earthers, the Lyndon LaRouche crowd or the Ron Paulistas. The more they put themselves into an untenable corner, the more irrational and desperate and misinformative crap they spew...and then regurgitate it over and over again.

189 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:20:12pm

The epicenter of all of this is discussion leads to OOL. Is there a "creator" or no. And its not just a yes or no answer. Its more a scale of 0-10. Yes or no and how sure are you with 5 being the fence.

190 David IV of Georgia  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:20:31pm

re: #170 MandyManners

#35 MandyManners 7/14/08 7:36:50 pm reply quote 0

Are Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

I don't know. I do know Aldous died the same day as JFK and C. S. Lewis while stoned on LSD.

191 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:22:06pm

re: #119 Charles

Folks, I don't have time to police the Lounge. I've been paying a yearly fee to keep it open, but it's turned into something I didn't intend. And when I look at the logs I see a whole lot of people who take it for granted and feel free to bash me.

If I want to pay to be bashed, I can find that elsewhere.

Would it be possible to have some volunteer monitors in the Lounge to perform the Stinky Beaumont function? Monitors not known to one another, but only to yourself, and if a majority of those monitors flag an individual, that individual would become a blocked poster? (or blocked only from the Lounge, if that is possible to do separately)

192 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:22:26pm

"Charles"
"spy talk" is a recycled troll. Or at least he showed up with the same rap. Secret scientist who can't reveal his degrees (007 gov agent, guess) I called him on it and he clammed up. But I'm pretty sure it is the same troll.

193 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:22:30pm

re: #183 Charles

Thanks for your offer to moderate. I'll give it some thought.

If moderators will keep the LL going I would offer my services, sir.

194 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:22:37pm

re: #114 Spytalk

But they have so much more than carbon dating. Paleomagnetism, geology, comet and meteor impacts, tree rings, ice cores, sediment depths, not to mention all of the other elements besides carbon that they can date with, etc. etc. etc.

For instance I know exactly which layer to look for particular fossils in different areas of Kansas by the layers of the ancient seabed here, the limestone, the bedrock. KC was right at the edge of the shore at one time.

Do you have another specious complaint?

195 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:22:50pm

#190 David IV of Georgia 7/14/08 8:20:31 pm reply quote 0

re: #170 MandyManners

#35 MandyManners 7/14/08 7:36:50 pm reply quote 0

Are Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

I don't know. I do know Aldous died the same day as JFK and C. S. Lewis while stoned on LSD.

196 Cartman  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:22:53pm

re: #183 Charles

Thanks for your offer to moderate. I'll give it some thought.

You're a good man, Charles.

197 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:23:33pm

re: #194 Thanos
He left after tossing his bomb.

198 jcw46  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:23:46pm

re: #119 Charles

Folks, I don't have time to police the Lounge. I've been paying a yearly fee to keep it open, but it's turned into something I didn't intend. And when I look at the logs I see a whole lot of people who take it for granted and feel free to bash me.

If I want to pay to be bashed, I can find that elsewhere.

And if you want a "Happy Ending" with that it'll be extra!

199 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:24:25pm

re: #197 pingjockey

He left after tossing his bomb.

What better way to get his LGF troll credentials can there be?

200 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:24:40pm

Spytalk is InternationalObserver

201 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:25:32pm

Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

202 abolitionist  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:25:33pm

re: #114 Spytalk

There's nothing intelligent about believing that carbon dating is accurate.
[snip]

I'll hazard a guess that you've never passed a course in calculus, or advanced algebra. As a method of estimating the age of a biological sample, of course there are limits to its application, and there are timescales beyond which it offers any useful accuracy.

But to pooh pooh it as you have just done is utterly irresponsible.

Can anyone tell me, which ID talking point this line of argument is from?

203 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:25:36pm

re: #145 SeafoodGumbo

There isn't any good argument on the ID side. There's no good place to start. They just have no case at all, and everything they do publish is lies and trash such as what we're now discussing.

204 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:25:49pm

Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

205 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:26:25pm

Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

206 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:26:42pm

By the way, I didn't mean to hit the 'plus' button on my comment. I meant hit the plus button on the post...

The people who hate evolution do their best to drive down the ratings for evolution posts.

207 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:27:02pm

re: #183 Charles

Thanks for your offer to moderate. I'll give it some thought.

Please do, Charles.
I did Para Chat moderation for years on the About.com network, and I can easily manage a busy chatroom with a lot of chatters and multiple rooms.

208 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:27:10pm

re: #205 MandyManners

Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

Surely you can't be asking me, I haven't a clue about anything at the moment. ;)

209 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:28:18pm

re: #202 abolitionist

Here it is: [Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

210 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:28:32pm

re: #207 Irish Rose

Please do, Charles.
I did Para Chat moderation for years on the About.com network, and I can easily manage a busy chatroom with a lot of chatters and multiple rooms.

But what would be the criteria for moderations?

211 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:28:35pm

re: #164 Shug

I haven't visited the lounge in over a year

I quit going a long time ago. It was like quantum leaping into a bar.

212 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:29:20pm

re: #183 Charles

Thanks for your offer to moderate. I'll give it some thought.

I'll moderate! I'm good for the weekends and a few weekly hours late night! Pleassseeeeee don't close it.

213 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:29:26pm

re: #157 David IV of Georgia

i notice that the majority of the time the majority of the people in the lounge are people who rarely or never post on the main pages. The few times I see a decent amount of regulars in the lounge is when the banning stick is out or some other major disturbance in the force.

David, in many cases, it is simply the hours we keep, or the time zone in which we find ourselves. I'm not a real frequent poster on the threads, because quite often I've come late to them, and the points I would have made have already been made ( and often more ably than I could have done ) or the posters to whom I wanted to respond have left the field, so to speak.

214 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:30:01pm

re: #88 calcajun

Thanks.

I don't mean to slam anyone who hold to evolution. Nor do I really agree with the ID people, either. It's just that we've only been digging into the fossil record for about two centuries now and we have, literally, just scratched the surface. There's a whole lot out there yet to be discovered and it's too soon for anyone to get huffy and dogmatic.

Sal: We know waaaay more than enough as it is to state that life speciated from a tiny number of common ancestors long, long ago, via nonrandom environmental selection action upon random mutations. This much is, quite simply, beyond all rational dispute.

But then again, we're not dealing with rational dispute.

215 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:31:01pm

Please note: the reason I'm talking about closing the Lounge is not just due to one incident. Just so we're clear on that.

216 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:31:07pm

Charles, if people are questioning you that's one thing. Your patience is appreciated. But, if people are bashing you or being disrespectful just get rid of them.

217 Macker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:31:16pm

Charles: Believe it or don't, I learned the word eponymous from these guys!

218 Abu Al-Poopypants  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:31:43pm

For the folks who are troubled about the creationism/evolution threads as though they're something that our host has only decided to post about lately:
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/day/2001-07-21 -
motherlode of ignorance

219 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:32:16pm

re: #206 Charles

By the way, I didn't mean to hit the 'plus' button on my comment. I meant hit the plus button on the post...

The people who hate evolution do their best to drive down the ratings for evolution posts.

What is your take Charles, do these folks seek you out or are there really that many dopes in the general population? Don't know why I am asking other than I am surprised by the apparent number of folks who seem so passionately offended by the obvious. In short, I don't really get it. Is there an organized attack on you and your site? Obvious facts seem to me to be well, obvious?

220 razorbacker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:32:25pm

re: #158 pingjockey

One view.

Carbon-14 dating is a way of determining the age of certain archeological artifacts of a biological origin up to about 50,000 years old. It is used in dating things such as bone, cloth, wood and plant fibers that were created in the relatively recent past by human activities

I'm pretty sure this is a view, but there's math, and math is hard.

Since living organisms continually exchange carbon with the atmosphere in the form of carbon dioxide, the ratio of C-14 to C-12 approaches that of the atmosphere.


From the known half-life of carbon-14 and the number of carbon atoms in a gram of carbon, you can calculate the number of radioactive decays to be about 15 decays per minute per gram of carbon in a living organism.

Radioactive carbon is being created by this process at the rate of about two atoms per second for every square centimeter of the earth's surface." Levin

The rate of production of carbon-14 in the atmosphere seems to be fairly constant. Carbon dating of ancient bristlecone pine trees of ages around 6000 years have provided general corroboration of carbon dating and have provided some corrections to the data.

Anybody have an account here? Looks promising.

In a heroic and sometimes contentious effort, researchers push to extend accurate radiocarbon dating back to 50,000 years ago. (Read more.)

This is difficult to read because of a 'busy' site design.

Scientists check the accuracy of carbon dating by comparing carbon dating data to data from other dating methods. Other methods scientists use include counting rock layers and tree rings.

When scientists first began to compare carbon dating data to data from tree rings, they found carbon dating provided "too-young" estimates of artifact age. Scientists now realize that production of carbon-14 has not been constant over the last 10,000 years, but has changed as the radiation from the sun has changed. Carbon dates reported in the 1950s and 1960s should be questioned, because those studies were conducted before carbon dating was calibrated by comparision with other dating methods.

Nuclear tests, nuclear reactors and the use of nuclear weapons have also changed the composition of radioisotopes in the air over the last few decades. This human nuclear activity will make precise dating of fossils from our lifetime very difficult due to contamination of the normal radioisotope composition of the earth with addition artificially produced radioactive atoms.

And there are others.

221 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:32:30pm

re: #215 Charles

Please note: the reason I'm talking about closing the Lounge is not just due to one incident. Just so we're clear on that.

Is there a particular timeframe that is problematic, Charles?

I've never seen anyone in the chatroom bash you when I've been in there, I would have taken their head off if I head.

222 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:32:36pm
223 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:33:04pm

re: #186 The Shadow Do

I was so close to a clean getaway when I get drawn back in.

My point is not from a science standpoint, but from the point of how do you know what you know? There's an old saying that some people know enough to be "dangerous", and I feel (got no data to support me here--just what I see and hear in the news and in places like this) there are a lot of dangerous people on both sides of the equation.

I suppose I could sum it up succinctly (how's that for some nifty alliteration) in that if you do not have the evidence (factual, testimonial, physical, etc) to support our view, and yet you still believe it, then your belief is predicated, to an extent, on faith. Therefore, unless you are a scientist or a theologian nonpareil your views on this (or any subject) are fueled, to some extent, by faith. Not a blind, "if its good enough for the pope" faith, but a faith which sort of fills in the gaps.
Remember what Harry Truman once said, "It's not what you know that's important. It's what you don't know."

Now, I really have to go -- the kids are waiting

224 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:33:14pm

re: #205 MandyManners

Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

No idea, but iirc Tommy and Dawn Huxley, the brother/sister co-founders of the Skeptic Friends Network , are in fact distantly related to Aldous.

225 wolfie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:33:28pm

re: #201 MandyManners

Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

Huxley's Eyeless in Gaza is in my stack of books to read.

Julian Huxley's Evolution in Action was quite popular when I was college-aged, but it's out of date now.

;)

226 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:33:30pm

re: #214 Salamantis

But then again, we're not dealing with rational dispute.

Agreed.

227 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:34:08pm

re: #205 MandyManners

Per Wiki:

Huxley's only child, Matthew Huxley (d. 10 February 2005) was also an author, as well as an educator, anthropologist and prominent epidemiologist. His work ranged from promoting universal health care to establishing standards of care for nursing home patients and the mentally ill to investigating the question of what is a socially sanctionable drug.[6] Matthew's first marriage, to documentary filmmaker Ellen Hovde, ended in divorce. His second wife died in 1983. He was survived by his third wife, Franziska Reed Huxley; and two children from his first marriage, Trevenen Huxley and Tessa Huxley.

I am guessing not a direct decendant.

I just got bored and wondered myself.

228 Abu Al-Poopypants  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:34:24pm

re: #206 Charles

By the way, I didn't mean to hit the 'plus' button on my comment. I meant hit the plus button on the post...

The people who hate evolution do their best to drive down the ratings for evolution posts.

What's the impact of a post having high or low ratings other than having a little number next to it?

229 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:34:31pm
230 wolfie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:35:17pm

re: #205 MandyManners

Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

I think if I had been stuck with a name like Aldous I might have given my kids more pleasant names.
Stephen and Ryan are pleasant.

231 Macker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:35:22pm

re: #137 Irish Rose

Geeze... the lizard lounge is one of the few pleasant havens that I have, when I'm struggling through a long lonely evening.

Why do we all have to lose the lounge because of the inconsiderate behavior of a few, Charles?

Why not simply assign a volunteer moderator or two? I'm an experienced Para Chat mod and would be more than happy to help out, as I sit home alone most evenings.

Please reconsider.

This might be a good idea. It seems that moderators would do the Lounge good, just as has out here whenever n00bs sign up.
Either way, Charles, I'm with you.

232 abolitionist  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:35:27pm

re: #209 jaunte

Thanks.

233 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:35:41pm

re: #221 Irish Rose

had, PIMF

234 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:35:57pm

re: #222 taxfreekiller

I ran out and got mine today and the Barnes and Noble people said that they were almost sold out in a day or two and they ususally have copies at the end of the month...

I can't wait to get it up in my den...what a hoot!

235 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:35:57pm

re: #224 Shiplord Kirel

No idea, but iirc Tommy and Dawn Huxley, the brother/sister co-founders of the Skeptic Friends Network , are in fact distantly related to Aldous.

I'm very interested in this.

236 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:36:12pm

re: #232 abolitionist

It's handy to have the whole index there. They seem to repeat frequently.

237 nyc redneck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:37:04pm

re: #229 taxfreekiller

must be getting tired,,

got tractor duty early,,

later

i'm tired too,
and need some manure on my garden.

238 Josephine  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:37:13pm

This is a strong reminder that people should always consider the source of the information they are reading (or copying & pasting).

Luskin works for the DI, so we know his bias. If he truly has such a superficial comprehension of evolution and scientific terminology, what does that say about his position at the DI and the people who pay him to work there? Is their understanding as insufficient as his?

Either Luskin didn't understand what he read or he assumed that his own readers wouldn't understand it. The former would suggest that he isn't smart enough to recognize his ignorance while the latter would suggest blatant, cynical arrogance and dishonestly.

239 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:37:15pm

re: #223 calcajun

I was a kid when I stubbed my toe on a rock and saw that it was a fossilized creature from who knows when. Not a 10 year old genius. In fact genius was not required.

240 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:37:19pm

re: #221 Irish Rose

Is there a particular timeframe that is problematic, Charles?

I've never seen anyone in the chatroom bash you when I've been in there, I would have taken their head off if I head.

I did during the VB crap, but most (all?) those folks have already been banned. I've seen differences of opinion, but very little aimed at Charles directly. And when it is, folks speak up. Least I have.

I don't doubt what you have Charles or what brought you to the decision, but a lot of folks really do enjoy the community that you built there and sincerely appreciate it.

241 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:38:08pm

re: #121 Shiplord Kirel

OT

The success of the surge in Iraq has exceeded all expectation. Most of this is attributable to Gen. Petraeus's leadership and advanced counter-insurgency tactics, as well as to President Bush's willingness to give him a chance.
I have good reason to believe, however, that some remarkable technical innovations may have had a role.

Now that's exciting.

}:)     [Boo-rah Science!]

242 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:38:34pm

Ryan Huxley and Stephen Huxley descendants of Aldous?

243 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:38:45pm

re: #33 Sharmuta


Was he actually expecting a scientific paper to be written in the style of Dr. Seuss or something? Does he not own a dictionary? When I've been reading these sorts of "jargon-filled" reports and papers lately, I look up the "jargon" I'm confused about. What a snide adjective to use- they really do want to dumb down science.

Heh, and these people want to have a big say in what American children learn as science in public schools? I would find them laughable if they weren't so persistantly dishonest and un-American.

244 nyc redneck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:38:51pm

re: #238 Josephine

This is a strong reminder that people should always consider the source of the information they are reading (or copying & pasting).

Luskin works for the DI, so we know his bias. If he truly has such a superficial comprehension of evolution and scientific terminology, what does that say about his position at the DI and the people who pay him to work there? Is their understanding as insufficient as his?

Either Luskin didn't understand what he read or he assumed that his own readers wouldn't understand it. The former would suggest that he isn't smart enough to recognize his ignorance while the latter would suggest blatant, cynical arrogance and dishonestly.

that's what i thought.

245 Abu Al-Poopypants  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:39:12pm

MandyManners, I tried your suggestion from the failure of empathy thread, but I couldn't do it.

246 conservativeChick  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:39:25pm

I know that this is really off topic but I need your guys help with something. This insane moonbat keeps commenting on my post about gay marriage and comparing the gay right movement to the slavery of blacks. I need help on good comebacks to kick his ass to the curb. Here is his insane comment:
Oh by the way what does someone who is black and white have to do with gay marriage.

Because 50 years ago, the exact same rant was used to justify laws against blacks and whites being allowed to marry. They didn't want to allow marriage for such couples, and passed local laws and measures to prevent it, just like they're doing now for gay and lesbian people. It took "activist judges" and court cases to override the "will of the people" to protect the rights of minorities.

And btw: We don't need to "re-write the constitution" to allow gay marriage. There's nothing in the constitution that forbids it! It's the right-wing "moonbats" (like you) that are pushing for a constitutional amendment to "protect" marriage. Because clearly two men getting married is what broke up your parents marriage... or maybe not.

In fact, the constitution literally supports the rights of all to "the pursuit of happiness". All we need to do is update the laws that explicitly call out marriage (like tax code, and death benefits) to include domestic partnerships. Or, we can put a federal rule in place to push states to issue licenses for unions, and get out of the marriage business, which they shouldn't be in to start with.

And yes, there were a number of Republicans for black rights, but most of them were "Goldwater Republicans", which are now Democrats. Back in that day and age the Republican party was quite progressive, and the "conservative" brand that exists now were a very small minority within the party. They were called Literalists back then, since most were also literal biblical groups (which supported slavery, and opposed mixing of races based on scripture, including: 2 Corinthians 6:14, Matthew 15:22-28, Genesis 9:24-25, and Exodus 21:28-32). But you're obviously too young to remember that.

Funny how the same group of folks that were against interracial marriage in the 50s are now screaming about gay marriage. Most of them not realizing (or being too young to remember) how literalist years ago said interracial marriage would destroy the nation and the "institution of marriage", and are making the same claim now. Sad really. I just hope in 50 more years they'll have moved on to some other "righteous cause" when the rest of society sees gay marriage to be just as normal as they see interracial marriage now.

I also don't see how allowing gay and lesbians the right to marry (or have their own private lives) gives the government more power. How does that help the "big government"? It doesn't. It also has no effect on the "institution of marriage", since as noted above, to men or women being able to marry won't affect straight marriages in any way at all. What it would do is protect families that already exist. Where children with two same sex parents can get coverage from one or the others medical insurance. Or don't have to worry about what happens if daddy dies and his family sues their other daddy for the house, claiming they have a right as family, but the partner and "his children" don't, since they're not related.

Don't you feel great about trying to keep families from having stability? Isn't your parents marriage so much stronger because gay marriage wasn't allowed back when they were together? Aren't you proud that you were able to nip this "liberal activist" with your witty banter?

Nice world you live in.


Know anything I can do to solve my moonbat troll problem.

247 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:39:36pm

'Paladin1' is dinging like crazy.

248 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:40:26pm

re: #245 Abu Al-Poopypants

MandyManners, I tried your suggestion from the failure of empathy thread, but I couldn't do it.

Sorry about the down ding. I zigged when I should have zagged (purely and accident).

249 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:41:04pm

re: #108 Mich-again

If gravity can stop light can it stop time?

Gravity doesn't stop light as such, it bends space, or that is, bent space is gravity. To an outside observer you and everything about you slows down, light, time, whatever, just before you disappear over the edge, but to you, everything seems fine. Until you're torn to quarks.

I think.

250 Attaboid  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:41:10pm

re: #63 Charles

What makes the Lounge different?

251 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:41:12pm

Bye, Paladin1.

252 wolfie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:41:34pm

re: #205 MandyManners

I 'd never leave the answer blank on a test.
If I had no clue, I'd put something, anything down.

253 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:41:44pm

re: #155 jaunte

This (at Google books) is a good resource:
[Link: books.google.com...]

Thanks. I'm more looking (if possible) for something on the Internet.

254 unclassifiable  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:41:59pm

OK. Let there be flame and a rain of minuses on me but here goes...

A sixth grade educated rancher knows that if he breads the best heifers to the best bulls he's going to get the best heard.

Yet, somehow, this is beyond nature's (and ergo -- God's) capability.

It's not that there might be intelligent design, it's that the ID morons refuse to use their intelligence to discover and see the design.

It's evolution and it is as God intended because it exists.

And no I don't know why God let ID proponents evolve. I am not smart enough to fathom it.

255 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:42:18pm

re: #158 pingjockey

Okay, you buncha over educated lizards, how accurate is carbon dating and do we have a better more refined version of carbon dating?
I know it will give you plus/minus x amount of years, how big is the spread?

ping, it's not just carbon dating, it's radiometric dating in general. It's a field of study in and of itself, and it's very well founded on the observable fact that radioactive elements undergo spontaneous decay on an exponential curve (in common with many natural processes), with a decay rate unique to each radioactive isotope. Measure the ratio of abundance of specific radioactive element, and compare with the abundance of its unique daughter product, and you can place the sample at a point on the decay curve.

The process involves making very precise measurements on minute quantities of elements, but we have become good at doing that. Samples could be skewed if they become contaminated with or leached of either the precursor or the daughter product, but that sort of error can be detected and controlled for; the simplest way being by doing sufficient repeat samples to ensure that anomalous ones aren't taken to be representative.

Carbon dating itself is limited to about 50,000 years. Beyond that point, there is simply not enough C14 left to reliably measure. That time span is not of much use in dating fossils, but it sure fits nicely with dating human artifacts.

256 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:42:40pm

re: #253 SeafoodGumbo

This is pretty comprehensive: [Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

257 abolitionist  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:43:53pm

re: #236 jaunte

It's handy to have the whole index there. They seem to repeat frequently.

Agree.

Index to Creationist Claims edited by Mark Isaak

258 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:44:52pm

re: #218 Abu Al-Poopypants

Demonstrating that Charles is consistent in his values, one of the things I appreciate most about this site.

259 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:45:00pm

re: #252 wolfie

I 'd never leave the answer blank on a test.
If I had no clue, I'd put something, anything down.

Isn't that risky on, I think, the SAT, or some other tests, where no answer counts zero but a wrong answer counts negative?

260 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:45:12pm

And then "Sky King" took over and started dinging like crazy.

Fascinating.

261 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:45:47pm

re: #46 Liz Ard

careful, you're 1/2 step away from being blocked / banned.

Wow, not even to a hundred comments before someone starts angling for martyr points.

Whiner.

262 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:45:56pm

And now "Az Husky" is at it.

263 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:46:02pm

re: #260 Charles

And then "Sky King" took over and started dinging like crazy.

Fascinating.

I also see an "AZ Husky".

264 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:46:40pm

re: #262 Charles

And now "Az Husky" is at it.

Different IPs?

265 mossley  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:46:46pm

re: #254 unclassifiable

OK. Let there be flame and a rain of minuses on me but here goes...

A sixth grade educated rancher knows that if he breads the best heifers to the best bulls ...


So, is that for a sandwich or chicken fried steak? :P

Seriously, I don't understand how people can have a problem with evolution being the mechanism by which a divine creator keeps things running. They don't mind gravity keeping us on the planet, thermodynamics and other fields keeping the weather going, or any of the gazillion other scientific activities that occur every instant.

266 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:47:07pm

re: #140 unclassifiable

Intelligent Design is like getting all the benefits of science without thinking.

Intelligent Design (sic) is to Science what Reader's Digest Condensed Books are to Literature.

}:)     [In other words, Intelligent Design is neither ... ]

267 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:47:09pm

Ok I'm out. Just one request. Please let us know the closing day. I'd like to exchange emails with a few folks.

Sorry it came to this Charles.

268 Abu Al-Poopypants  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:47:40pm

re: #259 itellu3times

Isn't that risky on, I think, the SAT, or some other tests, where no answer counts zero but a wrong answer counts negative?

That's the way it was when I took the SAT, but this was back in the days when we had to chisel the answers by hammering out the multiple-choice ovals on stone tablets. In these days of self-esteem trumping everything else, I'm surprised they don't have the academic equivalent of T-ball.

269 gman  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:47:41pm

Casey was one of the founders of the IDEA club at UCSD, which just happened to be a few miles away from ICR headquarters in Santee (relocated to Texas in 2007).

Interesting coincidence.

270 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:47:47pm

If I needed any more confirmation that creationists are coordinating their attacks, I just got it.

271 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:48:32pm

re: #203 lostlakehiker

There isn't any good argument on the ID side. There's no good place to start. They just have no case at all, and everything they do publish is lies and trash such as what we're now discussing.

I don't think there are any "good" arguments from the ID side, but I'm sure that they have arguments. I was just hoping to find one authoritative article that detailed their arguments and the counter-arguments to refute them.

I've been avoiding all the ID threads as my mind is already made up on the issue, but I'm going to start posting Charles' threads at Free Republic whenever I get a handle on the arguments/counter-arguments. There are quite a few ID fans at FR, so I want to know what I'm talking about before I start putting putting the anti-ID threads over there.

I'll probably start reading the LGF threads....this is probably a good time to make use of those tag thingamajigs.

272 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:49:19pm

Tech Question: I'm using the latest Safari. The number ratings don't update unless I click on it. And only the one that I click on updates. Is it Safari or what?

273 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:49:51pm

Hey, islamofauxware --you're lagging behind your friends.

274 gman  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:49:53pm

re: #270 Charles

If I needed any more confirmation that creationists are coordinating their attacks, I just got it.

Now, how to find out where they are coming from?

275 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:50:13pm

re: #246 conservativeChick

My favorite argument is the simplest (and totally non-religious):

A legislative body should be free to enact benefits and advantages to reward/encourage behavior that society finds valuable. Since promoting and growing communities is a good thing and since society has a direct interest in promotion of institutions that create children, it is the legislature's Provence to bestow benefits. The constitutional review standard should be "does the legislature have a rational basis for this law"? Almost all the time, any such benefit to married couples would be upheld.

If left wing moonbats can convince a majority of legislators to approve gay marriage, that is fine.

Problem is, they can't. They can't get it even anywhere close; so they have to rely on judicial fiat. A majority of Americans knew that racial discrimination was wrong and voted to effectively end it...not so with gay marriage.

276 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:50:17pm

re: #272 theparson

Tech Question: I'm using the latest Safari. The number ratings don't update unless I click on it. And only the one that I click on updates. Is it Safari or what?

No, that's just the way it is. I need to reload, refresh, or click on the numbers to update them.

277 nyc redneck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:50:19pm

re: #270 Charles

If I needed any more confirmation that creationists are coordinating their attacks, I just got it.

why don't they just start their own blog?

278 wolfie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:50:59pm

re: #259 itellu3times

Standardized tests are a different matter, I guess!

But you'd be surprised how often a teacher (at least in my day) might give you a point or two for ANY vaguely informative answer.

e.g.:

Q: Name the capital of Malawi.
A: Cattle-grazing is common in Malawi ...and also in Burundi, whose capital is Bujumbura.

279 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:51:06pm

re: #262 Charles

Tell them to go back to "World of Warcraft".

280 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:51:22pm

re: #171 calcajun

What is the difference between a trait that is an "adaptation" and an "evolutionary step"? Seriously, I have heard both terms used interchangeably and I do not know if there is a substantive difference.

Honestly, there's too much going on in my world to get embroiled in this study. But for the scientists who can devote their time to delving into this discussion, it's a matter of faith for both sides of the spectrum. In other words, most of us know just enough to be really dangerous on this subject)

I can't tell you the difference, but I'm not an evolutionary biologist. But I do get to handle fossils from time to time in the course of my work.

Yes, it can be a matter of faith. On the one side, it's faith in the received wisdom from an ancient book that claims to be divinely inspired. On the other side of the coin, it's faith in one's own ability to sift through the facts available and separate the wheat from the chaff. Or faith that like-minded people have done their homework on a particular subject, and can be reasonably expected to be an honest authority on the subject. In principle, I could personally duplicate an experiment to test a scientific theory. There is no way I can personally verify the claims made in a religious text.

281 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:51:29pm

re: #256 jaunte

This is pretty comprehensive: [Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

Thanks! ;)

282 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:51:45pm

That's five creationists now, having convulsions.

Any more lurking?

283 FrogMarch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:52:26pm

The Democrats hate Enron - but they love love love Enron-style accounting.

proof no entity with any intelligence could create a person with an ideological perspective so hideously hypocritical and asswipey.


*burp*

284 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:52:27pm

re: #276 reine.de.tout

Hmmm, I thought I was special.

285 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:52:28pm

re: #277 nyc redneck

why don't they just start their own blog?

Because . . .they "know what's best for us", even if we "don't get it yet".

so they have to come here and show us by dinging instead of trying to make a coherent case.

286 lostlakehiker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:52:36pm

re: #23 FurryOldGuyJeans

The D.I. folk sure are proving that intelligence is vastly over-rated.

No. Only that it is in short supply.

287 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:52:37pm

re: #246 conservativeChick

from the person you're trying to counter:

And yes, there were a number of Republicans for black rights, but most of them were "Goldwater Republicans", which are now Democrats. Back in that day and age the Republican party was quite progressive, and the "conservative" brand that exists now were a very small minority within the party. They were called Literalists back then, since most were also literal biblical groups (which supported slavery, and opposed mixing of races based on scripture, including: 2 Corinthians 6:14, Matthew 15:22-28, Genesis 9:24-25, and Exodus 21:28-32). But you're obviously too young to remember that.

- The greater majority of votes for the civil rights ammendment were Republican, the greater majority of votes against were Democrats. You can look that up.

288 eastvillageinfidel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:52:46pm

re: #277 nyc redneck

That would require an eponymous amount of work! :)

289 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:53:10pm

re: #284 theparson

Hmmm, I thought I was special.

Oh, but you are!

290 abolitionist  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:53:38pm

re: #272 theparson

Tech Question: I'm using the latest Safari. The number ratings don't update unless I click on it. And only the one that I click on updates. Is it Safari or what?

To update them all, you can just refresh the page via your browser.

291 razorbacker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:53:41pm

re: #268 Abu Al-Poopypants

That's the way it was when I took the SAT, but this was back in the days when we had to chisel the answers by hammering out the multiple-choice ovals on stone tablets. In these days of self-esteem trumping everything else, I'm surprised they don't have the academic equivalent of T-ball.

I always asked. No one ever refused to answer, although some professed not to know.

It can affect the score.

292 esch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:53:41pm

re: #285 reine.de.tout

Because . . .they "know what's best for us", even if we "don't get it yet".

Sounds like my whacko fundamentalist grandmother.

293 profitsbeard  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:53:50pm

Dinosaurs had brains the size of walnuts.

And even they knew that you look up a word you don't understand before you judge it to be misleading jargon.

Never liked the word eponymous myself. Always reminded me too much of Buchephalous...(who had too many eponymous cities named after him by his infamous and notorious rider) .

And who can remember the difference between homology (the same genetic structures adapted to various uses, like the functional human digits or the whale's hidden-fingered flipper) and its poetic "opposite" homoplasy (convergent evolution, where different structures adapted to similar uses, like marsupial "wolves" and true wolves)

I want to hear ID thinkers gives us their ideas about Supershapes, morphogenesis or exaptations (the "useless" breathing apparatus in "lungfish", etc. that later helped them move into another environment).

Promoting something you do not embody is ironic, at best.

294 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:54:27pm

re: #292 esch

Sounds like my whacko fundamentalist grandmother.

Then she might have been here the other night - that's a quote from unixrab.

295 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:54:30pm

re: #270 Charles

If I needed any more confirmation that creationists are coordinating their attacks, I just got it.

This is the same ilk of "Christian" that carves "Jesus Saves" into the paint of someone's car. Defacing for Jesus.

296 nyc redneck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:54:52pm

re: #288 eastvillageinfidel

That would require an eponymous amount of work! :)

;)

297 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:55:20pm

re: #290 abolitionist

Thank you.

298 funky chicken  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:55:53pm

You know, as a person with a master's in biochemistry, I can only say that I am just pleased as punch that these ID threads generate so much interest. Kinda confused, but still pleased. It makes me feel less nerdy, I guess :-).

299 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:56:01pm

re: #292 esch

Sounds like my whacko fundamentalist grandmother.

Shame on you.

300 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:56:02pm

re: #220 razorbacker
cool. Just got back from lounge, my computer started acting goofy so i had to restart :(

301 esch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:56:11pm

re: #294 reine.de.tout

Nah she's fading fast. Doubt she has 2 more years left.

According to her, I'm a 'Lost Soul'. I kid you not.

302 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:56:32pm

re: #63 Charles

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interest in paying for people to whine about me.

Not a fan of the lounge myself, but it's unfortunate that you gotta do that.

It's unfortunate that people have to behave like spoiled children who love to abuse their privileges. I'm sure many will be unhappy, but I hope they realize that it's those who abused the privilege of the lounge that forced your decision.

303 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:56:41pm

re: #224 Shiplord Kirel

No idea, but iirc Tommy and Dawn Huxley, the brother/sister co-founders of the Skeptic Friends Network , are in fact distantly related to Aldous.

304 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:57:01pm

re: #301 esch

Nah she's fading fast. Doubt she has 2 more years left.

According to her, I'm a 'Lost Soul'. I kid you not.

Visit her often. I know you love her. I dearly loved my kooky-wacko dad.

305 mossley  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:57:31pm

re: #116 pingjockey

Yeah, the relative in relativity refers to the frame of reference of the observer. What you experience is relative to where you are in relation to what is going on. (The person in a space ship going at near the speed of light sees something different than the person watching from the ground, so to speak.)

306 spytalk  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:57:46pm

Until it became popular to be agnostic or atheist or liberal, most historical scientists were either Christian or people of Faith [Link: www.adherents.com...] they were not "Christian Scientists" they were scientists who were Christians who knew that something does not come out of nothing and that there is an inherent order, logic and design to all we can discover [Link: www.aclj.org...] scientific terms are endless and to pick the bone over a scientific term when the guy is not claiming to be the top world scientist, but rather a proponent shows a pretty defensive/aggressive attitude. I'm not too interested in visiting lgf all that much anymore as of a couple months ago. My posts are "complete crap" yet I hold a few science degrees here and there. Pretty aggressive people on this forum. If you want to be agnostic - good luck with that - I don't remember bashing anyone on personal terms. And I do remember stating that ID should not represent any particular "religion." For the record I'm stating *ID should not ever represent any particular "religion"* I've been following LGF for more than five years. (# of posts 13 - hmm, shows that I prefer to read, study, and think rather than flame at other posters - I'm also very busy most of the time). For those of you that disagree with me, keep this in mind, I disagree with you, ok? And yes, I did take some time this evening to read all of the harsh disagreement.

307 esch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:58:04pm

re: #299 theparson

Not a chance. They failed with my dad and I've paid a hefty price ever since.

308 wolfie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:58:20pm

re: #295 theparson

This is the same ilk of "Christian" that carves "Jesus Saves" into the paint of someone's car. Defacing for Jesus.

Yep. Happens all the time.
/

309 esch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:58:44pm

re: #304 reine.de.tout

I do. In spite of my resentments I do love her and bring the grandkids.

310 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:59:01pm

re: #306 spytalk

You hold science degrees? Really? Which "science degrees" are those?

I know you're very busy, but since you've managed to post two of your 14 total comments tonight, maybe you can make an exception.

311 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:59:20pm

re: #255 Alberta Oil Peon
See I knew if I asked I'd get some damn smart answers! Thanks all who answered. Pretty sad too, cause me and the 8 yr old watch Nat Geo, Discover, History channel, etc... He really liked the computer graphics on the Universe shows.

312 SpiraMirabilis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 8:59:47pm

re: #63 Charles

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interest in paying for people to whine about me.

You must not close the lounge!

313 funky chicken  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:00:18pm

re: #279 brainwizard73

Tell them to go back to "World of Warcraft".

Hey, WOW is fun. Tell me it isn't some kind of new earth creationist haven.

314 inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:00:29pm

re: #282 Charles

That's five creationists now, having convulsions.

Any more lurking?


Yes Charles I am sorry but I am a creationist and I was lurking,BUT--unlike the others I do not go through dinging anybodies post on these threads because I feel everybody has their rights to their belief/opinion, AND because you and several others here convinced me on the first couple of ID threads that this was not a good thing that DI was pushing and that I already knew that I did not want any religion taught in public school, due to allowing one would open the doors to all. Our church had discussed this issue several years ago. ALSO, I will always try and HONOR YOUR HOUSE.

315 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:01:11pm

Now the hate mail is starting to come in, of course.

316 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:01:17pm

I would like to suggest an experiment for anyone who still be sincerely unconvinced by the arguments against young earth creationism.

Take a tour of the Old World, look at some intact structures that are known from contemporary written sources to be two thousand or so years old: The Pantheon in Rome, the Pont du Gard at Nimes France.
Look carefully at the stones in the outer walls structures. Look for evidence of erosion; rounded corners, surface striations, etc. Pay especially close attention to stones that are partially exposed to weather and partially protected by overhangs.
Then compare what you have seen to the evidence of erosion in the nearby hills, whole mountains gradually chewed away and spread in fans across the plains. Then ask yourself: Is it really possible that these buildings are a third as old as the Earth itself?

317 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:01:18pm

re: #278 wolfie

Standardized tests are a different matter, I guess!

But you'd be surprised how often a teacher (at least in my day) might give you a point or two for ANY vaguely informative answer.

e.g.:

Q: Name the capital of Malawi.
A: Cattle-grazing is common in Malawi ...and also in Burundi, whose capital is Bujumbura.

I guess I'm older than that.

318 esch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:01:52pm

People definitely need lives. Do they really think 'witnessing' in this fashion is going to accomplish anything?

319 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:03:05pm

re: #313 funky chicken

No it isn't. I knew I would catch hell for the WOW reference.

Just the teamwork/confluence of the "dingers" suggested WOW like coordination.

320 razorbacker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:03:19pm

re: #300 pingjockey

cool. Just got back from lounge, my computer started acting goofy so i had to restart :(

Pingjockey, in the interests of full discloser...I discriminated on the choices. I left out the Catholic sites, several fundamentalist Christian sites, and a couple where the bias seemed a bit...obvious.

General scientific consensus seems to be, works fine out to about 50K years. Questions regarding whether or not the rate of solar activity in the past could skew it.

321 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:03:31pm

re: #314 inquisitive

Yes Charles I am sorry but I am a creationist and I was lurking,BUT--unlike the others I do not go through dinging anybodies post on these threads because I feel everybody has their rights to their belief/opinion, AND because you and several others here convinced me on the first couple of ID threads that this was not a good thing that DI was pushing and that I already knew that I did not want any religion taught in public school, due to allowing one would open the doors to all. Our church had discussed this issue several years ago. ALSO, I will always try and HONOR YOUR HOUSE.

Honest debate is welcome. The coordinated attack that just took place is another matter entirely.

322 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:03:31pm

re: #274 gman

Now, how to find out where they are coming from?

Look for the hive that says Fred Phelps on the mailbox.

323 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:03:47pm

re: #215 Charles

Please note: the reason I'm talking about closing the Lounge is not just due to one incident. Just so we're clear on that.

Absolutely.  Your ship, you navigate -- I'm merely a passenger.  I'm almost never in there, anyway.

}:)     [I DO empathize with those who are fond of it, though.  I'll keep my fingers crossed ... ]

324 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:05:03pm

Apparently talkorigins.org has experienced some vandalism in the past:

"Sometime in mid-November, 2006, a cracker started exploiting the TalkOrigins Archive. The cracker managed to get the TOA de-indexed by Google, and when the TOA was re-indexed on 2006/12/05, the cracker stepped up his efforts to direct webspam to the Google-bot. In order to take back our site, we have taken the step of removing all the scripts on our site. We will restore static content as quickly as possible. We will restore other features, such as feedback, once we write secure scripts to handle those features. We apologize for the inconvenience. It may be some time before we can offer the features that have been script-based."
325 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:05:54pm

re: #95 The Shadow Do

Man, I had no idea that anything as dopey and obvious as this ID scam ran so emotionally deep. Astonishing really. Just shows to go 'ya I guess.

People can become emotional and irrational when you start eying their sacred cow with BBQ sauce.

326 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:06:07pm

re: #320 razorbacker
Thank you. I want science not faith. I believe, but that is my business and my thought is faith should be left to the experts in faith, ie, pastors, rabbis, even imams. Science is the search for facts not faith. ID is faith.

327 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:06:13pm

re: #293 profitsbeard

Dinosaurs had brains the size of walnuts.
...
I want to hear ID thinkers gives us their ideas about Supershapes, morphogenesis or exaptations (the "useless" breathing apparatus in "lungfish", etc. that later helped them move into another environment).

Promoting something you do not embody is ironic, at best.

Heh.

If you can explain the difference between exaptations and what the ID folk believe in, I'd appreciate it. When I read Gould, I find him infuriating and his concept of exaptation completely opaque, unless he means ID, which he obviously doesn't.

328 Purple Prose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:07:22pm

I love evangelical Christians. Not all of them are creationists.

Some are, though, and let's face it, in a world where everyone took the Bible as LITERAL reality, people who believe in reason as a tool to understand the world would be somewhat like dhimmis in Islam. So it was in the middle ages. The Bible is a great book, but it simply cannot in every aspect of its stories be literally true, since then the world be 6,000 or so years old and Cain would have had babies with his sister or a female created but not mentioned in the Bible. So the Old Testament may be true morally, but how can it be true in every word historically? It simply defies reason and any sense of consistency in the Bible itself.

In a creationist's world, science would be dhimmified. Science that dealt not with human origins or anything threatening (and those are shifting concepts, since the Earth revolving around the Sun was once heresy) would be banned.

In an Islamist's world, science that did not affirm the supremacy of Islam, Allah as the one true God and Mohammed as His prophet would be banned.

Maybe, in the day and age, the doubter would just be ostracized in a Christian creationist's world, and not burned at the stake, while the doubter in the Islamist creationist's world would be beheaded. So maybe a skeptic would fair better under Christian fundamentalists. Undoubtedly so.

But why should anyone who values reason be a second-class citizen at all? And what do we do if we throw out a whole part of science to satisfy some fundamentalists? You can't throw out part of science without throwing out the whole thing. Science is about understanding the world based on the tools we have. If we take away some tools and say you can try to understand the world with what is left, the whole thing has been undermined.

Who wants to be a dhimmi in any fundamentalist world, even if some fundamentalists are better than others. Faith and reason are not incompatible, and only fundamentalists believe so.

The fair and honest way to fight to Islamic fundamentalism is no to substitute one fundamentalism for another but to oppose all fundamentalism, Islamic or otherwise.

329 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:07:42pm

University of Here and There.

330 bosforus  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:08:09pm

re: #6 Liz Ard

these ID / DI threads will be the staple of LGF, it seems.

If by 'staple' you mean, something that helps keep things together, then yes.

331 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:08:18pm

re: #316 Shiplord Kirel

I would like to suggest an experiment for anyone who still be sincerely unconvinced by the arguments against young earth creationism.

Take a tour of the Old World, look at some intact structures that are known from contemporary written sources to be two thousand or so years old: The Pantheon in Rome, the Pont du Gard at Nimes France.
Look carefully at the stones in the outer walls structures. Look for evidence of erosion; rounded corners, surface striations, etc. Pay especially close attention to stones that are partially exposed to weather and partially protected by overhangs.
Then compare what you have seen to the evidence of erosion in the nearby hills, whole mountains gradually chewed away and spread in fans across the plains. Then ask yourself: Is it really possible that these buildings are a third as old as the Earth itself?

Don't forget the Acropolis, compressed, aged, calcium carbonate...


////(oh shit, confirmation of carbon dating that matches actual history... we better ignore that, and please don't even think about how that calcium carbonate had to formor the length of time it must have taken... )

332 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:08:38pm

re: #274 gman

Now, how to find out where they are coming from?

I know where at least one of them was coming from.

333 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:09:02pm

re: #306 spytalk
You came in and threw a bomb, then split. ID is faith not science. Whose version of creation are you going to teach? Leave out one, one major or even minor religion and those believers will be screaming discrimination.

334 razorbacker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:09:28pm

re: #295 theparson

This is the same ilk of "Christian" that carves "Jesus Saves" into the paint of someone's car. Defacing for Jesus.

I don't get out enough. I've not heard of this.

That little saying had best be true if ever I should catch some lost soul ministering to me in such a fashion.

335 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:09:35pm

re: #270 Charles

If I needed any more confirmation that creationists are coordinating their attacks, I just got it.

Should we prepare to repell boarders?

}:)     [I'll get a cutlass from the wall ... ]

336 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:09:40pm

They're secret

337 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:10:29pm

re: #316 Shiplord Kirel

I would like to suggest an experiment for anyone who still be sincerely unconvinced by the arguments against young earth creationism.

Take a tour of the Old World, look at some intact structures that are known from contemporary written sources to be two thousand or so years old: The Pantheon in Rome, the Pont du Gard at Nimes France.
Look carefully at the stones in the outer walls structures. Look for evidence of erosion; rounded corners, surface striations, etc. Pay especially close attention to stones that are partially exposed to weather and partially protected by overhangs.
Then compare what you have seen to the evidence of erosion in the nearby hills, whole mountains gradually chewed away and spread in fans across the plains. Then ask yourself: Is it really possible that these buildings are a third as old as the Earth itself?

Of course the YEC answer to that one is that God created the world with all the wear and tear built in, just like He created all the fossils to fool the gullible into "believing in" evolution. If you want to believe in a sneaky god, then young-earth creationism is your bag.

338 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:11:12pm

re: #332 Charles

I know where at least one of them was coming from.

Anything from the Pacific NW, or from offshore?

339 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:12:30pm

re: #338 Thanos
Refine your targeting! I'm in the Pacific Northwest, but east of Seatlle, aka moonbat cave north.

340 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:13:02pm

re: #339 pingjockey

Refine your targeting! I'm in the Pacific Northwest, but east of Seatlle, aka moonbat cave north.

You are a stone throw away from DI :)

341 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:13:13pm

re: #338 Thanos

Anything from the Pacific NW, or from offshore?

One is from Olympia, Washington.

342 jcw46  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:13:16pm

re: #310 Charles

You hold science degrees? Really? Which "science degrees" are those?

I know you're very busy, but since you've managed to post two of your 14 total comments tonight, maybe you can make an exception.

Said the spider to the fly.

343 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:13:59pm

re: #340 Thanos
I can't see how they survive in uber secular, marxist, leftist Seattle.

344 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:14:38pm
345 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:14:44pm

re: #328 Purple Prose

I love evangelical Christians.
In a creationist's world, science would be dhimmified. Science that dealt not with human origins or anything threatening (and those are shifting concepts, since the Earth revolving around the Sun was once heresy) would be banned.

This is a silly, overreaching statement. I am a creationist who truly appreciates science and I am far from alone.

346 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:15:08pm

re: #278 wolfie

Standardized tests are a different matter, I guess!

But you'd be surprised how often a teacher (at least in my day) might give you a point or two for ANY vaguely informative answer.

e.g.:

Q: Name the capital of Malawi.
A: Cattle-grazing is common in Malawi ...and also in Burundi, whose capital is Bujumbura.

Excellent!
Many years ago, I won the Jeopardy qualifier on a question about African capitals:
"The capital of Upper Volta."
"What is Ouagadougou?"

I lost on the show, but won some dough and some pretty good freebies. Alex Trebek is a real gentleman and a real professional.

(Upper Volta is now called Burkina Faso, which means "Land of Upright Men." Ouagadougou, prounounced "Wagodogo," means "place where people are respected."

347 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:15:11pm

re: #341 Charles
Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia, all moonbat havens. Also St. Pancakes alma mater is in Olympia.

348 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:15:15pm

Too much caffiene?re: #341 Charles

I try and cut back on caffiene after 6pm, myself.

349 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:15:50pm
350 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:16:29pm

re: #306 spytalk

Wow, how utterly pious of you!

}:)     [Remind me and I'll be impressed tomorrow.]

351 hazzyday  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:16:38pm

re: #306 spytalk

Yes and most of them were not ID type Christians. They had a more reasoned faith. More balance in their activities. ID is a dishonest endeavor. Why would a good Christian even want to particpate in it. Find something better.

352 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:17:56pm

Did a double post just disappear? Ha. Wish I could do that.

353 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:18:07pm

re: #341 Charles

One is from Olympia, Washington.

Olympia! There, see, you are angering the gods. Happy now, Mr. Smartypants?

354 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:18:09pm

re: #334 razorbacker

Unfortunately I see that type of thing, though rarely in vehicle paint. It is not unusual for me to find carvings or spray painted messages of Jesus love. It is embarrassing to me as a Christian.

355 bosforus  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:18:18pm

i missed a lot of action here tonight. looking for an apple IIe is also time well spent.

356 wolfie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:18:37pm

re: #328 Purple Prose

What cartoons have you been watching?!

357 neocon hippie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:18:37pm

OT:

New Yorker staff in overdrive explaining satiric Obama cover

Look who they reference in the very last paragraph.

358 hazzyday  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:19:11pm

re: #353 Occasional Reader

Olympia! There, see, you are angering the gods. Happy now, Mr. Smartypants?

Olympia went bad went they shut down the brewery a few years ago.

359 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:19:34pm

re: #353 Occasional Reader

Olympia! There, see, you are angering the gods. Happy now, Mr. Smartypants?

Olympia just happens to be very near the home of the Discovery Institute.

I'm just sayin'.

360 wolfie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:20:17pm

re: #346 Shiplord Kirel

Great story.....and info! :)

361 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:20:31pm

re: #357 neocon hippie

OT:

New Yorker staff in overdrive explaining satiric Obama cover

Look who they reference in the very last paragraph.

If only there had been a picture of Che on the wall, too. Obama and the Shrew couldn't just explain that one as a smear...

362 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:20:51pm

There goes another one.

363 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:21:19pm

re: #362 Charles
Are we recieving incoming?

364 freetoken  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:21:30pm

re: #114 Spytalk

The decay rate is non-linear, [...]

Just as Luskin ought to have used a dictionary, I recommend you do likewise and look up "half-life." There are plenty of online elucidations of that concept.

365 xleatherneck[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:22:12pm
366 Abu Al-Poopypants  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:22:19pm

re: #361 brainwizard73

If only there had been a picture of Che on the wall, too. Obama and the Shrew couldn't just explain that one as a smear...

Too bad the rug is just a vague representation of the Presidential Seal instead of Vero Possumus.

367 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:22:47pm

re: #359 Charles

Olympia just happens to be very near the home of the Discovery Institute.

I'm just sayin'.

I think they closed the Oly brewery at Tumwater, so there's no longer any reason to go there.

368 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:22:49pm

re: #359 Charles

Careful, remember in Clash of the Titans when Zeus kept playing with the little figures in the model of the city? You could end up pitted against Ron Paul, Michelle Obama or some ID extremeist in gladitorial combat.

If that happens, don't get the net and trident...it is overrated. Go for the two handed claymore.

369 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:23:41pm

365 should've kept their yap shut.

370 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:24:17pm

re: #367 Alberta Oil Peon
They did a few years ago:(

371 Opilio  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:24:59pm

re: #369 pingjockey

365 should've kept their yap shut.

Well, that yap is now shut permanently.

372 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:25:10pm

This post has really driven them out of hiding. I think it's because it's intensely embarrassing to them to be caught so red-handed.

373 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:25:16pm

re: #366 Abu Al-Poopypants

Someone should have reminded the New Yorker that satire only works if it isn't too on point/true.

I will likely never buy this rag again, but for one day, I reached across party lines...reached out to get a copy of something I never would consider getting...

Is it?

Could it be?

CHANGE!

374 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:25:20pm

re: #371 Opilio
deleted or banned?

375 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:26:02pm

re: #369 pingjockey

365 should've kept their yap shut.

Darn! I go out to shut off the lights in the garage, and miss all the excitement.

376 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:26:04pm

re: #369 pingjockey

Gee whiz that was fast. Here I am getting a few ITunes things sorted out and we have deleted posts already.

Whew!

377 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:26:07pm

re: #368 brainwizard73

Careful, remember in Clash of the Titans when Zeus kept playing with the little figures in the model of the city? You could end up pitted against Ron Paul, Michelle Obama or some ID extremeist in gladitorial combat.

Exactly. Charles is risking being jumped by a Kraken, too. But will he listen to us? No, of course not.

378 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:26:11pm

re: #372 Charles
I went up and looked and only saw 6 down dings, what in hell am I missing!?

379 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:28:04pm

re: #325 Slumbering Behemoth

People can become emotional and irrational when you start eying their sacred cow with BBQ sauce.

BBQ, Mmmmmmmre: #372 Charles

This post has really driven them out of hiding. I think it's because it's intensely embarrassing to them to be caught so red-handed.

Sic 'em Charles!

/I have an Airedale. There ain't no lettin' go.

380 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:28:14pm

re: #377 Occasional Reader

Exactly. Charles is risking being jumped by a Kraken, too. But will he listen to us? No, of course not.

Why would Charles fear the Kraken?

All he would need would be the head of Kathy Griffin...

381 Opilio  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:29:00pm

re: #364 freetoken

Just as Luskin ought to have used a dictionary, I recommend you do likewise and look up "half-life." There are plenty of online elucidations of that concept.

I don't think Spytalk was all that interested in edjumacation.

382 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:29:04pm

re: #378 pingjockey

I went up and looked and only saw 6 down dings, what in hell am I missing!?

The ones who are now blocked were going through this thread and dinging as fast as they could -- dinging down all the posts supporting evolution, and dinging up every post against.

383 Opilio  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:29:41pm

re: #374 pingjockey

deleted or banned?

deleted and banned.

384 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:31:12pm

re: #382 Charles
Ah, thought I was missing something that I wasn't aware of and hadn't noticed myself getting smacked. Acting in concert are they?

385 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:31:43pm

re: #383 Opilio
One shouldn't say things like that.

386 claire  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:32:19pm

re: #337 Alberta Oil Peon

What the YEC's believe is even stranger than that. They believe that the forces that shaped the world, erosion, decay, sedimentation, etc. were speeded up exponentially for a while after the flood so the time constraints set by the bible could be met.

Perfectly reasonable. So obvious. Not hard to believe at all. But documented genetic mutation..... no way, Jose!

387 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:32:23pm
388 Racer X  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:32:36pm
389 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:32:37pm

regarding post 365; I looked at his comments! He should have been out of here long ago! What an A55WIPE!

390 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:32:57pm

re: #384 pingjockey

You should see the ding fest after an ID/Evol thread is down the stack. Usually check out the spy after the overnight thread winds down before fruitcup and some people just go nuts starting from the first post all the way down to the bitter end.

391 jcw46  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:33:15pm

re: #306 spytalk

Here spytalk, here spytalk. Come out, come out wherever you are.

Darn! I was all set to see him set up the pins for Charles to knock over.

392 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:33:20pm

re: #347 pingjockey

Seattle, Tacoma, Olympia, all moonbat havens. Also St. Pancakes alma mater is in Olympia.

Isn't the Discovery Institute located in Seattle?

393 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:33:40pm

re: #389 swamprat

regarding post 365; I looked at his comments! He should have been out of here long ago! What an A55WIPE!

Indeed.

394 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:33:52pm

re: #391 jcw46

Wasn't that guy/gal going to hit us with his CV so we could judge for ourselves if he had a clue?

395 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:33:58pm
396 SeafoodGumbo  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:35:02pm

From neocon hippie's link in #357:

A post on the conservative blog Little Green Footballs.com argued Monday that the liberals (aka "moonbats") at the New Yorker got a little too nuanced with their satire of conservative media coverage.

"The cover is obviously a moonbat parody of what they think are right-wing ideas about their messiah. But they got so meta with it, they ended up wrapping around and making themselves look stupid," the post read.

397 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:35:02pm

re: #391 jcw46
He's a secret scientist, don' cha know!

398 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:35:22pm

re: #392 reine.de.tout

Isn't the Discovery Institute located in Seattle?

Yes, it is. Very close to Olympia. The Disco Dudes often hold events in Olympia.

399 Idle Drifter  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:35:25pm

re: #382 Charles

I step out for dinner and come back to IDs trying to be Mobys. I find their crisis of faith disturbing.

400 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:35:33pm
401 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:35:35pm

re: #377 Occasional Reader

Exactly. Charles is risking being jumped by a Kraken, too. But will he listen to us? No, of course not.

He can't because of the damned heroic music.

}:)     [A man's gotta do what a man's gotta do ... ]

402 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:36:20pm

re: #397 swamprat

Sure he's not a "double secret scientist"?

403 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:36:33pm

re: #387 buzzsawmonkey

unicellular

multicellular

simple sea creatures

complex sea creatures

Mr. Lungfish

What about Mr. Limpet?

404 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:36:38pm

re: #398 Charles

Yes, it is. Very close to Olympia. The Disco Dudes often hold events in Olympia.

Our Governor has shown she is very receptive to any group that has lots of cash to thrown around.

405 JamesWI  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:36:54pm

re: #310 Charles

You hold science degrees? Really? Which "science degrees" are those?

I know you're very busy, but since you've managed to post two of your 14 total comments tonight, maybe you can make an exception.

I think he might have gotten his science degrees the same way as Kent Hovind got his "PhD"s.

406 jcw46  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:37:03pm

re: #399 Idle Drifter

Crisis of faith?
More like their lack of judgement.

407 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:37:03pm
408 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:37:48pm

re: #407 buzzsawmonkey

He's incredible.

I'm Knotts so sure about that.

409 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:37:51pm

re: #390 BlueCanuck
I went back and looked after someone mentioned this odd behavior. Strange, thread is dead and some strange creatures go in and down ding posts. No comments by the dingers.

410 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:38:28pm
411 tchad  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:38:33pm

I finally got around to looking at the Discovery Institute website yesterday. Pretty slick looking site. Then I started reading, and I found that "slick" also covers the site contents, though "slimy" might be more appropriate. The unstated pitch is "We're not like those Young Earth Creationists! We support scientific inquiry! We're reasonable!"

But of course they aren't reasonable. To the extent they are bible-bound Creationists lying about their true motives, trying to put a nose under the academic tent, they are false and despicable. To the extent they are telling the truth when they claim to be trying to keep the scientists honest, they are unnecessary. Given time, the scientific community will do a far better job of keeping scientists honest than a group that can't be bothered to learn even the basics of the science they are so desperate to discredit.

Those on one side of this debate are ready and willing to have their minds changed by evidence. To their opponents, intellectual honesty is just another obstacle to overcome on the road to "enlightenment."

412 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:38:41pm

re: #114 Spytalk

There's nothing intelligent about believing that carbon dating is accurate. Carbon dating is like using an elementary school ruler to measure the width of the entire country. The decay rate is non-linear, and we have only a small snapshot in time to reference, the accuracy is way off. There are many many influences that make carbon dating inaccurate.

Sal: Types of radiometric dating
argon-argon (Ar-Ar)
fission track dating
helium (He-He)
iodine-xenon (I-Xe)
lanthanum-barium (La-Ba)
lead-lead (Pb-Pb)
lutetium-hafnium (Lu-Hf)
neon-neon (Ne-Ne)
optically stimulated luminescence dating
potassium-argon (K-Ar)
radiocarbon dating
rhenium-osmium (Re-Os)
rubidium-strontium (Rb-Sr)
samarium-neodymium (Sm-Nd)
uranium-lead (U-Pb)
uranium-lead-helium (U-Pb-He)
uranium-thorium (U-Th)
uranium-uranium (U-U)

Sal: When several different types closely agree, the chances that they are right approach apodictic certainty.

It takes more faith to believe in evolution than it does Intelligent Design.

Sal: It takes no faith to believe in evolution; in fact, people DON'T believe in evolution. They accept the vast array of empirical evidence for it, and thus know it to be sound and valid science. ID, on the other hand, is a sectarian religious dogma, not science, and people have to either believe in it or not, since there is no empirical evidence whatsoever for its veracity.

Both should be presented in public education.

Sal: No. Sectarian religious dogmas have no place in public high school science class.

I could go on, but I'm a busy guy at the moment.

Sal: Obviously, not busy learning much...

413 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:38:54pm

re: #392 reine.de.tout
Yep. Surprised the local anarchists haven't rioted on them.

414 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:39:12pm

Oh shizzle. Charles just all like threw down the pun gauntlet in buzzsaw's face n' shit.

415 Throbert McGee  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:39:21pm

Speaking of looking up words you don't understand, I was recently wading through the intellectual slime-mold on Lawrence Auster's "View From the Right" and observe that the word "epiphenomenon" and its other forms are rather popular there, but many of the people who use it apparently don't quite know what it means.

It doesn't mean "ephemeral" or "unimportant," as one Ian B. quite obviously believes; neither does it mean "irreducibly complex" or "unexplainable as a product of simpler phenomena," as this guy seems to think.

In some contexts the word can imply that a phenomenon is either inherently difficult to analyze in simpler terms, or that is entirely impossible to explain in a reductionist way right now, given our present state of knowledge -- but it doesn't mean "forever unexplainable by its very nature."

(I happened to notice that some VFR readers were misusing epiphenomenon while railing against "Darwinian materialism," which is why I mention it in this thread.)

P.S. As always, apologies to actual slime-molds for the hurtful comparison.

416 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:39:32pm

There's another one dinging posts right now ('Poison') but he/she is trying to do it slowly enough to avoid being noticed.

417 jaunte  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:39:36pm

Here's another howdy from the DI folks to "non-secular" allies in Turkey, at Bruce Chapman's blog:

Don't Let Democracy Fail in Turkey
The reliable Mustafa Akyol reminds Americans that Turkey is facing a constitutional crisis because of misplaced secularism, or, as he calls it, "secular extremism." If courts depose the current, democratically elected government--with the military standing behind the courts--Turkey will be damaged in its international dealings, its economy, its democracy (certainly) and in other ways that can't even be calculated yet.


Scroll down at link:
[Link: www.discoveryblog.org...]

Mustafa Aykol's blog:
[Link: www.thewhitepath.com...]

418 Purple Prose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:39:40pm

re: #345 theparson

This is a silly, overreaching statement. I am a creationist who truly appreciates science and I am far from alone.

I am not criticizing those who believe in God or creation. But if you appreciate science, you must then appreciate that God created the universe billions of years ago and then let the mechanism of natural selection produce the diversity of life, including humans, on Earth. This is what Francis Collins believes.

What this also means is that you can't accept a hard-line literal and chronological interpretation of the Bible. That is simply inconsistent with what we have learned by putting our God-given brains to good use. Why would God create a universe and humans with our brains and then mislead us every which way into doubting what our brains discover? This is inconceivable.

So then you must be realize that the Bible is a great moral book inspired by God but not 100% historically correct. It may be 100% morally true, but if it is completely historically true, then God is playing tricks on our senses, and I don't think a just and rational God would do that.

419 razorbacker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:39:42pm

I'm not a good Christian. I've read the Bible a couple or three times, but always in the English language. Some of the stuff there troubles me.

I'm not so concerned with a 6 or 8 thousand year old earth. Are we talking earth years, galactic years, or cosmic years? It doesn't specify.

I'm not so concerned with a God who would command the Israelites to slaughter every man, woman, and child living in an area so that his chosen people might live there. Seems a trifle disproportionate to me, but it is written.

Don't ask me if an all powerful God can make a rock so heavy he can't lift it. Mere parlor games.

Send a bear down to ravage children for mocking a prophet's bald head? I've had my cranky days myself.

God created mankind in his own image. But the first generation ate of the tree despite explicit instructions, and the second generation introduced murder.

But that whole treating others as you wish them to treat you was brilliant. Could have stopped there, IMHO.

I didn't get as much done as I wished to, today. So I'll say goodnight.

'Cause if things break out my way, I'll get another chance tomorrow.

420 bosforus  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:39:43pm

CNN almost gets this headline right.
'Heroic' fighting repels Afghan militants
Because, you know, it all depends on which side of the fight you're on to be considered heroic.

A U.S. official told CNN that as many as 200 insurgents were involved in the strike...
The fighting left nine U.S. soldiers dead and 15 wounded...
An Afghan official estimated that 100 militants died or were wounded in the fighting...

200 compared to 25 and CNN doesn't know who the heroes are?

421 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:40:07pm

re: #402 brainwizard73 Excuse-moi. But of course!

422 Opilio  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:40:09pm

re: #403 Occasional Reader

What about Mr. Limpet?

Das Limpet!

423 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:40:59pm

re: #415 Throbert McGee

Speaking of looking up words you don't understand, I was recently wading through the intellectual slime-mold on Lawrence Auster's "View From the Right" and observe that the word "epiphenomenon" and its other forms are rather popular there, but many of the people who use it apparently don't quite know what it means.

It doesn't mean "ephemeral" or "unimportant," as one Ian B. quite obviously believes; neither does it mean "irreducibly complex" or "unexplainable as a product of simpler phenomena," as this guy seems to think.

In some contexts the word can imply that a phenomenon is either inherently difficult to analyze in simpler terms, or that is entirely impossible to explain in a reductionist way right now, given our present state of knowledge -- but it doesn't mean "forever unexplainable by its very nature."

(I happened to notice that some VFR readers were misusing epiphenomenon while railing against "Darwinian materialism," which is why I mention it in this thread.)

P.S. As always, apologies to actual slime-molds for the hurtful comparison.

Isn't it surprising to discover that the "racialists" are big fans of "intelligent design?"

I know I'm gob-smacked.

424 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:41:23pm

re: #415 Throbert McGee

I thought "epiphenomenon" referred to something unusual that happens when a woman removes unwanted hair.

425 bosforus  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:41:25pm

re: #420 bosforus

100 compared to 25, rather. PIMF

426 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:41:48pm

Gotta go to bed now. Play nice and rack the sand when you leave the box, please.
Good night, Mrs Callabash... where ever you are.

427 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:41:59pm

re: #416 Charles

There's another one dinging posts right now ('Poison') but he/she is trying to do it slowly enough to avoid being noticed.

Maybe you should make dinging privileges be something you earn after so many posts initially and maintaining a certain # of posts per time period type thing.

(Just a suggestion)

428 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:42:01pm

BTW, Olympia is at least 30 miles south of Seattle.

429 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:42:05pm

re: #410 buzzsawmonkey

Don sell him short.

Mayberry I should just stop while I'm ahead.

430 Purple Prose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:42:11pm

re: #356 wolfie

What cartoons have you been watching?!

Unfortunately, none but the output of the Discovery Institute. I wish it were otherwise, but they are about cartoon non-science.

431 jcw46  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:42:54pm

re: #412 Salamantis

Sal: When several different types closely agree, the chances that they are right approach apodictic certainty.

Hey! Watch the language!

432 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:42:58pm
433 reine.de.tout  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:43:05pm

re: #412 Salamantis

Sal: Obviously, not busy learning much...

Sal - big time OT - but you were talking about your cat on a different thread and after you were gone, I posted this that I thought you might get a kick out of:

An Engineer's Guide to Cats

434 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:43:44pm

re: #420 bosforus

It is a disgrace that our own news media cares more about prisoner rights at GITMO than our own troops holding off fearful odds and, despite the sacrifice, prevailing.

I guess it is more news worthy when Americans die.

Anyone else see what is wrong with this picture?

435 Racer X  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:44:00pm

What is the intent of the "down-dingers"? Are they trying to influence opinion?

436 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:44:02pm

re: #432 buzzsawmonkey

Eppie Phenomenon was Ann Landers' real name.

She was one classy Epi-Lady.

437 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:44:09pm
438 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:44:38pm

re: #437 buzzsawmonkey
Opie on you.

439 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:44:41pm

He's trying to find his sheepskins from good ol' Close-Cover-Before-Striking-University-and-Bait-Sh op.

440 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:45:00pm

re: #415 Throbert McGee

They have to have their "epi" word too since right now epigenetics is the rage in biology.

441 bosforus  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:45:15pm

re: #434 brainwizard73...Anyone else see what is wrong with this picture?

Fortunately, at LGF, this is a rhetorical question.

442 jcw46  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:45:43pm

re: #410 buzzsawmonkey

Don sell him short.

Fife'll get you ten this will end in tragedy.

443 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:45:47pm

re: #437 buzzsawmonkey

Never really watched that show, so I'm outside my normal field of Opie-ration.

Oh that's it. Just pyle it higher and deeper.

444 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:45:54pm

re: #429 Charles

Mayberry I should just stop while I'm ahead.

*groan*

445 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:46:12pm

re: #211 Mich-again

I quit going a long time ago. It was like quantum leaping into the body of a speed-freak fighting a rabid donkey with spiked hooves in a bar.

Fixed :)

446 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:46:18pm
447 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:46:36pm

re: #434 brainwizard73

It is a disgrace that our own news media cares more about prisoner rights at GITMO than our own troops holding off fearful odds and, despite the sacrifice, prevailing.

I guess it is more news worthy when Americans die.

Anyone else see what is wrong with this picture?

Could say the same thing about 4 of the justices on the SCOTUS (was it 4?).

448 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:46:51pm

re: #122 calcajun

I suppose one of the problems that rankles the ID people would be your use of the word "fact" of evolution versus "theory".

There's still a bunch of stuff we don't know. Both sides have to keep open minds.

Sal: It is a fact that evolution happens. The theory part has to do with the mechanisms by means of which it happens.

449 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:46:59pm

re: #443 BlueCanuck

Oh that's it. Just pyle it higher and deeper.

You don't have to encourage him; he'll just Gomerrily on his way.

450 theparson  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:47:36pm

re: #418 Purple Prose

I take issue with your characterization of all creationists as wanting to ban science and etc. No doubt that element exists and it is unfortunate. However, you swept all of us into the same bucket. It is your prerogative to do so and it is mine to object.

451 jcw46  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:47:37pm

re: #432 buzzsawmonkey

What? Now you're making my skin crowley.

452 Abu Al-Poopypants  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:47:41pm

re: #429 Charles

Mayberry I should just stop while I'm ahead.

Nip it in the bud.

453 blue_like_jazz  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:47:42pm

re: #437 buzzsawmonkey

Never really watched that show, so I'm outside my normal field of Opie-ration.


you couldn't (Aunt) Bee any funnier!

454 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:48:17pm

re: #441 bosforus

True.

I just read Michael Yon's new book; it is a tour de force of the conditions on the ground in Iraq. Still the news media only seem to focus on his critique of American strategy...but conveniently forget to point out that his experiences have left him with a desire to see the mission to the end-an attitude that is pervasive amongst the military.

455 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:48:27pm

I'm still waiting for the Mayberry PD: Special Victims Unit spinoff.

456 Opilio  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:48:44pm

re: #412 Salamantis

When several different types closely agree, the chances that they are right approach apodictic certainty.

apo·dic·tic \a-pa-'dik-tik\ adj. <Latin apodicticus, from Greek apodeiktikos, from apodeiknynai to demonstrate, from apo- + deiknynai to show>
: expressing or of the nature of necessary truth or absolute certainty

I learned another new word at LGF today. That's two words in two days.

457 claire  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:49:06pm

Maybe we can have a Seattle counter like the Reuters counter.re: #434 brainwizard73

Maybe Santorum can introduce a bill to let the Pterosaurs eat the prisoners at Gitmo.

(You saw the thread yesterday, right?)

458 eastvillageinfidel  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:49:14pm

re: #435 Racer X

i don't get it either. Is it just to get Charles' goat? Who else would know and why would they care if they did?

459 Macker  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:49:34pm

re: #247 Charles

'Paladin1' is dinging like crazy.

That's 'cause he ain't busy playin' Diablo III. Oh wait a sec...that ain't out yet. Dang!

460 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:49:39pm

re: #448 Salamantis
Don't we still call the following theories still?
Gravity, Relativity, Quantum, String, Black Holes, even though evidence for all of these theories exist?

461 FinnAgain  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:49:48pm

re: #448 Salamantis

Funny, of course, that we never hear that particular dodge when the subject is, oh, say... gravity.

I can't help but think that if a literalist interpretation of some popular holy book yielded a view that was at odds with the inverse square law, we'd be seeing an attempt to get Intelligent Falling taught in schools.

462 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:49:48pm
463 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:49:49pm

re: #453 blue_like_jazz

you couldn't (Aunt) Bee any funnier!

This thread was Taylor-made for buzzsaw, wasn't it?

464 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:50:15pm

A lot of worried lounge lizards tonight.

465 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:50:49pm
466 jcw46  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:51:12pm

re: #463 Occasional Reader

This thread was Taylor-made for buzzsaw, wasn't it?

Andy just won't stop.

467 Racer X  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:51:26pm

re: #464 Irish Rose

A lot of worried lounge lizards tonight.

I remember the days before the lounge when threads would be hopping late at night. Comedy gold!

468 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:51:42pm

re: #455 Occasional Reader

In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate but equally important groups; the sheriff's office that arrests the offenders, and...the sheriff, who is the justice of the peace.

These are their stories.

Why no COPS in Mayberry? I would tune in...

469 blue_like_jazz  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:51:43pm

re: #463 Occasional Reader

This thread was Taylor-made for buzzsaw, wasn't it?

GROAN

//rolls eyes


that was fantastic


you're such a GOOBER

470 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:52:38pm

re: #462 buzzsawmonkey

Will that be more or less exciting than the Aw Shucks Intent spinoff?

It couldn't be worse the Mayberry SWAT. Barney just wasn't too convincing as point man on the entry team.

In any event, the SVU episodes would be pretty predictable; the perp would always turn out to be Floyd. You know it's true.

471 Opilio  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:52:50pm

re: #427 FurryOldGuyJeans

Maybe you should make dinging privileges be something you earn after so many posts initially and maintaining a certain # of posts per time period type thing.

(Just a suggestion)

That's perilously close to the scheme used over in Kozistan, where anyone can uprate, but only the 'right' people can wield the dinger (so to speak).

472 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:53:54pm

re: #457 claire

No. Darn it. I support feeding terrorists to dinosaurs...

Two things the MSM doesn't think exist.

473 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:54:14pm

re: #471 Opilio

That's perilously close to the scheme used over in Kozistan, where anyone can uprate, but only the 'right' correct people can wield the dinger (so to speak).

Fixed that for you. There are no right people located there at all.

474 Idle Drifter  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:54:34pm

re: #435 Racer X

What is the intent of the "down-dingers"? Are they trying to influence opinion?

I guess the "Down Dingers" are trying desperately to convince themselves they are winning the arguement.

475 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:54:56pm

Dingers to the Correct People!

476 profitsbeard  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:55:12pm

re: #327 itellu3times

More partial to Loren Eiseley's writing style than Gould's (although SJG's "Wonderful Life" is highly recommended), but both were good guys and great exponents of their fields.

Exaptation ("pre-adapted" sounds too presumptious) demonstrates the "wasteful" protean ingenuity of mutating life forms. They throw out every possibility, and, retaining some of these latencies in their organism, can then expand them as needed.

There is an elan vital (not necessarily "intelligent" but willful), to use Henri Bergson's nice phrase, that propelled the first paramecium and still moves the latest kid on a skateboard.

Building-in more potentials than are currently expressed, or even apparently "needed", seems to be the natural redundancy (or self-preservative profligacy), inherent in living cells which keeps critters going when hard times hit (decades-long droughts, meteor strikes, etc.).

Desire, not design, seems both fundamental and paramount.

Able to turn apparent disadvantages to its own fruitful ends.

And, after 4 or 5 billion years, slowly awakening to to its brilliance.

477 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:55:39pm

re: #437 buzzsawmonkey

Never really watched that show, so I'm outside my normal field of Opie-ration.

Yes, perhaps you two should get back to how evolution tells us how to differentiate between say ... ant / bee.

478 Opilio  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:55:47pm

re: #463 Occasional Reader

This thread was Taylor-made for buzzsaw, wasn't it?

Opie-lease, knock it off already...

479 Occasional Reader  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:56:06pm

Good night.

480 brainwizard73  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:56:22pm

re: #477 Thanos

Or how Goober survived the Jurassic period?

481 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:56:35pm

Night OR

482 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:57:31pm

Buncha frackin' punsters ain'tcha!

483 Kulhwch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:57:55pm

Now I'm outta here myself.  Gonna feed the critters and hit the sheets with a Travis McGee novel.

}:)     [Don't envy my my exciting lifestyle, now.  And night, all!]

484 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:59:16pm

re: #482 pingjockey

I try, from time to time I actually succeed.

/you should hear me groanning over here over some of them.

485 FurryOldGuyJeans  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 9:59:54pm

re: #471 Opilio

That's perilously close to the scheme used over in Kozistan, where anyone can uprate, but only the 'right' people can wield the dinger (so to speak).

I know that, but I just saying you have to be an active member to do either, not just upding.

But it was only a suggestion. ;)

486 Opilio  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:00:27pm

re: #482 pingjockey

Buncha frackin' punsters ain'tcha!

Anyone have a Helen Crump or Thelma Lou pun?
I got nuttin'

487 jcw46  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:00:58pm

re: #484 BlueCanuck

I try, from time to time I actually succeed.

/you should hear me groanning over here over some of them.

The success of a pun is directly proportional to the length and loudness of the groan.

488 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:01:35pm

re: #219 The Shadow Do


What is your take Charles, do these folks seek you out or are there really that many dopes in the general population? Don't know why I am asking other than I am surprised by the apparent number of folks who seem so passionately offended by the obvious. In short, I don't really get it. Is there an organized attack on you and your site? Obvious facts seem to me to be well, obvious?

I know you didn't ask me, but I'm gonna open my big yap anyway.

I think those folks are tripping over themselves to attack these threads because they know that LGF is a strong and credible voice for anti-idiotarianism, and they cannot stand to have the light of truth focus on them like a laser, exposing all their dishonest ploys.

489 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:02:49pm

Bah, I looked up the inverse square law... you mean to tell me that this is FAKE?

490 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:04:11pm

re: #484 BlueCanuck
Yep, but pretty funny all the same!

491 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:05:30pm

re: #489 Thanos
If its a law how can it be fake?!

492 Purple Prose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:05:54pm

re: #450 theparson

I take issue with your characterization of all creationists as wanting to ban science and etc. No doubt that element exists and it is unfortunate. However, you swept all of us into the same bucket. It is your prerogative to do so and it is mine to object.

Creationists want to delegitimize a field of science that has a huge body of scientific evidence in its favor. Only a fool would argue otherwise. Since science is a process that is governed by the same rules across all of science, you cannot selectively delegitimize one area of science without delegitimizing the whole process.

Creationism, if defined separately from a political or fundamentalist religious movement, simply means that God created the universe, there is no problem. God may be behind everything. But if creationism as defined as it is as a movement, and ID as defined as it is as a movement, then it is simply anti-rational, anti-reason and based on dogma.

Creationists and IDers could do experiments. They have the money to do so. Many experiments do not cost that much. Yet they have produced no experimental evidence at all in favor of their position.

Nothing wrong with the idea of creation. It's the position of creationists that oppose an almost insurmountable body of evidence in support of evolution by natural selection with drivel that is the problem.

493 Irish Rose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:06:07pm

Well folks, I'm out for the evening... I wanna catch at least one chapter before I hit the sack.

See you on the DDT.

494 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:07:19pm

Well we have slowed to a crawl, so on that note I believe it is lights out, intratubes off. Charles musta whacked all the sneaky down dingers.

495 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:08:35pm

OT
In desperate need of some tech-pert help, is there anybody here now that can help me? Posted part of problem few minuetes ago on Monday afternoon open(so as not to interrupt this thread) hoping someone on LGF spy would see and come to my rescue.....but didn't so I am asking for help again ! if any one can?

496 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:09:40pm

re: #495 Inquisitive...........speak

497 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:09:58pm

re: #495 Inquisitive
You may be out of luck here. If you've got Java try the lounge, there may be some tech savy lizards in there.

498 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:10:17pm

Oh thank yoGive me min to type problem

499 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:10:40pm

re: #496 swamprat
You be with the force swamp?

500 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:11:27pm

re: #492 Purple Prose

Purple Prose, we should be more careful about slagging "creationists" in general. It's the young-earth creationists in general, and the Discovery Institute in particular who are the legitimate targets here. We really have no quarrel with someone who states that God created the Universe 14 billion years ago, and used evolution as His toolkit for populating the Earth. That's outside the realm of science, and I have no wish to either try to prove or disprove it (as opposed to random chance or quantum fluctuations being the first cause).

501 Thanos  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:12:22pm

Time for me to get some sleeps, g'nite all

Parting tune

Hear me now

502 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:13:05pm

re: #460 pingjockey

Don't we still call the following theories still?
Gravity, Relativity, Quantum, String, Black Holes, even though evidence for all of these theories exist?

I'm not so sure there's evidence for string theory, the general consensus seems to be it has no yet made any testable or disconfirmable predictions. It is of course a rationalization of known facts, but that's not enough.

And then there's the problem that quantum and relativity don't seem to play well together.

503 wolfie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:13:35pm

re: #430 Purple Prose

Unfortunately, none but the output of the Discovery Institute. I wish it were otherwise, but they are about cartoon non-science.

I agree w/ you about the Disco Institute, but you don't fight cartoon "science" with cartoon history and prophecy.

504 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:15:50pm

re: #499 pingjockey...nope

505 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:16:07pm

Blew tv(completely), computer(sound), xbox360 (vidio), and don't know about surround sound yet. Moved all my sons electronics this week end from one room to another. Marked everything and made sure all was plugged in in correct places, except xbox(he had that with him). Everything was fine and working---he got home plugged in xbox----noticed computer making loud buzzing sound, surround sound worked with xbox but had not picture. Unplugged plug for surround sound from back of computer and when going to plug back in---pop pop and sparks from under tv. Don't know if xbox cords bad, cord from computer to surrond sound bad, or surrond sound itself bad. Why, what, how this could have happened. Bought new 27 in tv today, computer at shop and sending xbox off. Don't want to hook to surround sound until know what going on -----Any ideas?

506 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:17:05pm

re: #502 itellu3times
That is why I asked. We still use the term "Theory of Gravity", Theory of Relativity, etc...I do know for string and quantum there is serious math involved. We were watching something about one of the super colliders and there was an equation on the board in the background and there were symbols defining certain values/functions and I didn't recognize any of them!

507 BlueCanuck  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:17:24pm

re: #492 Purple Prose

I have actually read several books that try to explain certain phenomena in the bible. Like "Noah's Flood", and the young earth belief. Only reason I have read them was that I was raised in a very creationist home.

The one on the flood was fairly scientific. It theorized that a large body containing mostly ice came between the moon and the earth and was torn to pieces due to "Roche's limit". Of course this explained the frozen mammoths with food still in their mouths and stomachs, fossilized dinosaurs in the midwest in huge graveyards, etc.. Fairly straight forward if you believed in how he pieced things together. I fell for it till I actually paid attention to physics, history, and biology in high school.

The other book I saw was on my moms book shelf at home. She had picked it up for her church library, so I started leafing through it. The amount of pretzel logic it tried to use was amazing. Everything from the grand canyon to plate tectonics was hammered at and used theories that most scientests wouldn't even consider. In fact I have seen some of the same theories on new age moonbat websites.

One thing that was attracted me to science is the way it is set up. It follows a trail and only back tracks if the experiments don't pan out. But it keeps track even of the dead ends for refernce points. No matter how you slice it the scientific method works best.

508 FinnAgain  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:18:33pm

re: #460 pingjockey

Don't we still call the following theories still?
Gravity, Relativity, Quantum, String, Black Holes, even though evidence for all of these theories exist?

String Theory is just a name, it is, properly, an hypothesis and not a theory.

Black holes are a fact, there are various theories as to their nature and dynamics.
Gravity is a fact, there are various theories as to its nature and dynamics, especially in interstellar space.
Relativity is a fact, there really aren't that many competing views but there is an effort to integrate it with the quantum, and sub-quantum worlds in which traditional physics simply breaks down.

Likewise, evolution is a fact, and there are numerous competing theories which attempt to properly model and predict the information that we have and should expect to find.

509 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:18:55pm

re: #498 Inquisitive
I saw. Call your insurance company. Tell them lightning got into your house and you have a claim.

510 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:19:40pm

re: #508 FinnAgain
Damn I like coming in here.

511 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:21:24pm

re: #509 swamprat

I saw. Call your insurance company. Tell them lightning got into your house and you have a claim.


Thought seriously about that, because we did have electrical storm the night I was mving it all----but I have those really good surge protectors on them and don't know if they could tell if they were hit or not. The ones that are insured by company up to $250,000. One for just computer and units to it and other for tv and others.

512 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:22:22pm

re: #509 swamprat
Bingo. Pops and sparks from under the tv is not good. Your home electronics shouldn't do that. You can't put power cords in wrong and reverse the polarity. Plus it isn't 220volts with a two speed motor hooked to it, easy to swap high & low speed leads.

513 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:25:04pm

re: #285 reine.de.tout

Because . . .they "know what's best for us", even if we "don't get it yet".

so they have to come here and show us by dinging instead of trying to make a coherent case.

Keep hammering that one home, Lizard! Unixrab let his ID mask slip a little to far with that one, giving us all a peek at the fascist that lurks beneath.

514 Purple Prose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:25:12pm

re: #500 Alberta Oil Peon

Purple Prose, we should be more careful about slagging "creationists" in general. It's the young-earth creationists in general, and the Discovery Institute in particular who are the legitimate targets here. We really have no quarrel with someone who states that God created the Universe 14 billion years ago, and used evolution as His toolkit for populating the Earth. That's outside the realm of science, and I have no wish to either try to prove or disprove it (as opposed to random chance or quantum fluctuations being the first cause).

Agreed. So then there is no need for the term creationist. God may have created the Big Bang and then left it to natural processes that can be understood by humans after that.

So it's a linguistic problem, and there is no need for the politically loaded term creationism at all. It means something specific and more limited than just "there is a God," and everyone knows that. Creationism is an agenda, while God created all is an idea nobody can prove or disprove. So people need to think about the words they use.

515 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:25:13pm

re: #512 pingjockey

Bingo. Pops and sparks from under the tv is not good. Your home electronics shouldn't do that. You can't put power cords in wrong and reverse the polarity. Plus it isn't 220volts with a two speed motor hooked to it, easy to swap high & low speed leads.

It was not power supply cords I was plugging in that made pops---it was the cords/plugs that you plug the speakers into and the other end into the surround sound. Yep light green into green, red into red, and white into white. Got to figure this out what went wrong, before hooking everything back up when I get them all back.

516 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:26:43pm

Surrond Sound was the main thing between all that went wrong. XBox to surround sound to Tv. Computer to surround sound.

517 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:27:48pm

re: #515 InquisitiveThose shouldn't have had issues. They don't carry squat for voltage. Weird.

518 pingjockey  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:28:41pm

Later folks.

519 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:29:10pm

re: #505 Inquisitive

It is very important that you make sure that the electric company has not screwed up the juice going into your house. Make sure that your 220 apliances (stove,or water heater) are working correctly. just basic stuff. If you know someone with an electric meter (volts ohms, etc.) who knows how to use it; ask him over. Be careful. When they screw up, a bath could kill you. This happens on occaision. But I only say this because I know personally of it happening twice. Nobody got zapped. But on lady almost did. Sorry to feed any paranoia. Probaly a simple thing. Put on your slow and careful hat. plug a lamp into an outlet. Check basics.

520 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:29:39pm

re: #517 pingjockey

Those shouldn't have had issues. They don't carry squat for voltage. Weird.


I know I know, but I have to figure out where the problem lies before I blow anything else!

521 MSMediaCritic  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:30:28pm

re: #104 Irish Rose

I also concur! Charles, please don't close the lounge. I haven't seen much anti-science stuff there -- especially lately. And I am there all of the time.

It's my favorite place on the web!

522 Throbert McGee  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:32:04pm

re: #293 profitsbeard

And who can remember the difference between homology

I know, I know! "Homology" is the study of men with neatly-trimmed mustaches who like to...

(the same genetic structures adapted to various uses, like the functional human digits or the whale's hidden-fingered flipper)

Oh. Never mind.

and its poetic "opposite" homoplasy (convergent evolution, where different structures adapted to similar uses, like marsupial "wolves" and true wolves)

But seriously, "homoplasy" is a new one to me -- I would've used the term "analogous" to describe cases like the wings of insects versus the wings of birds (totally separate evolutionary origins, but similar functionality), in contrast to the "homologous" bones of a whale's flipper, a human's hand, and a bat's wing (radically different forms and functions, but derived from the same ancestral bones).

523 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:32:34pm

re: #223 calcajun

I was so close to a clean getaway when I get drawn back in.

My point is not from a science standpoint, but from the point of how do you know what you know? There's an old saying that some people know enough to be "dangerous", and I feel (got no data to support me here--just what I see and hear in the news and in places like this) there are a lot of dangerous people on both sides of the equation.

I suppose I could sum it up succinctly (how's that for some nifty alliteration) in that if you do not have the evidence (factual, testimonial, physical, etc) to support our view, and yet you still believe it, then your belief is predicated, to an extent, on faith. Therefore, unless you are a scientist or a theologian nonpareil your views on this (or any subject) are fueled, to some extent, by faith. Not a blind, "if its good enough for the pope" faith, but a faith which sort of fills in the gaps.
Remember what Harry Truman once said, "It's not what you know that's important. It's what you don't know."

Now, I really have to go -- the kids are waiting

Sal: Ahh, yes...the old "Ya gotta have perfect knowledge or else it's all just crappy opinion" tack.

People don't have to see every begat from a single celled creature to Bob Barker or have personally synthesized the protein commanded by every codon to accept evolutionary theory based upon massive empirical evidence from both genetics and paleontology, any more than people need to see all 26 of our letters to know that it's an alphabet. OTOH, ID people have to accept on blind faith, because there is absolutely NO empirical evidence for their position to SEE.

524 Purple Prose  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:33:13pm

re: #503 wolfie

I agree w/ you about the Disco Institute, but you don't fight cartoon "science" with cartoon history and prophecy.

Science is not a cartoon, despite the best efforts of IDers.

525 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:33:48pm

re: #519 swamprat

It is very important that you make sure that the electric company has not screwed up the juice going into your house. Make sure that your 220 apliances (stove,or water heater) are working correctly. just basic stuff. If you know someone with an electric meter (volts ohms, etc.) who knows how to use it; ask him over. Be careful. When they screw up, a bath could kill you. This happens on occaision. But I only say this because I know personally of it happening twice. Nobody got zapped. But on lady almost did. Sorry to feed any paranoia. Probaly a simple thing. Put on your slow and careful hat. plug a lamp into an outlet. Check basics.

Thanks I have to look at it all---because I know enough about elec. that this should not have happened! I think I really may have to look into there being a wiring problem or something in the house, because I blew my son's computer a year ago(had to replace mother board and other parts), by unplugging it and another one when trying to plug it back in.

526 Charles  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:34:16pm

OK, after a lot of emails and a lot of pleading, I'll hold off on closing the Lounge right now, until I can figure out if there's a way to keep it a bit more in control.

I'm not going to just close it down with no warning, in any case.

527 LeePro  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:35:37pm

re: #509 swamprat

I saw. Call your insurance company. Tell them lightning got into your house and you have a claim.

Isn't that kind of lie called insurance fraud?

528 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:36:17pm

re: #515 Inquisitive
Must sleep. Be careful. Read my post 519.

529 wolfie  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:37:30pm

re: #500 Alberta Oil Peon

Agreed......though I'd go even further.

I don't have a problem with YEC believers. Living as I do in SW Va, I know quite a few of them, and they are neither morons nor monsters. I may think their Biblical exegesis and theology is dumb, but they probably think the same thing about my Catholicism. I would no more sneer at these folks for their beliefs than I would sneer at a Mormon or a Hindu.

What I have a problem with is the insertion of the ID/Creationist agenda into the public schools under the guise of "science." BIG problem.

But it may surprise you that there are quite a few YEC believers who also have a problem with that.

530 calcajun  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:37:54pm

re: #526 Charles

More monitor lizards.

531 swamprat  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:40:55pm

re: #527 LeePro
Only if it is a lie. It sounds like lightning damage to me. Or reversed input into the house. Or a simple faulty outlet. But yes, if it is a lie it certainly is fraud. The insurance Co will know if there are other claims in the neighborhood. They aren't stupid.

532 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:44:13pm

re: #527 LeePro

Isn't that kind of lie called insurance fraud?


Already said not going there---have really good surge protectors--knew Ins. company would know they not hit.

533 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:44:20pm

re: #529 wolfie

Agreed......though I'd go even further.

I don't have a problem with YEC believers. Living as I do in SW Va, I know quite a few of them, and they are neither morons nor monsters. I may think their Biblical exegesis and theology is dumb, but they probably think the same thing about my Catholicism. I would no more sneer at these folks for their beliefs than I would sneer at a Mormon or a Hindu.

What I have a problem with is the insertion of the ID/Creationist agenda into the public schools under the guise of "science." BIG problem.

But it may surprise you that there are quite a few YEC believers who also have a problem with that.

We are really on the same page, then, Wolfie. If someone wants to believe in YEC, I'm OK with that, even though I might laugh at their gullibility. It's when they want to modify public institutions to cater to that belief that the line must be drawn.

534 MSMediaCritic  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:48:54pm

Charles,

If there is anything I can do to help keep the lounge open, please let me know (short of personally humiliating myself on live television).

535 LeePro  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:48:59pm

Hmpffff

One little comment and I'm worn out. G'nite {all}.     ;D

536 MSMediaCritic  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:49:17pm

Thank you for deciding to leave it open for now, too.

537 MSMediaCritic  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:50:19pm

Hey all,

Please visit the previous thread on the NYT and add a comment! It's only my second hat tip and I was really hoping to break 200 comments!
Thanks.

538 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:50:40pm

re: #343 pingjockey

I can't see how they survive in uber secular, marxist, leftist Seattle.

Secularism is neither marxist nor leftist; not that you were implying such, I just wanted to clear that up for anyone who might make a mistaken comparison.

With that out of the way, I can see how the DI would thrive in a marxist, leftist community, as their tactics are near identical.

539 Throbert McGee  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:51:33pm

re: #337 Alberta Oil Peon

If you want to believe in a sneaky god, then young-earth creationism is your bag.

I think YEC is a bunch of хуй (pronounced like "hooey" and meaning, in the present context, almost but not quite the same thing), but I am now inclined to believe in a sneaky god, because He miraculously guest-posted on my blog last week -- coincidentally, to confirm His own sneakiness.

/linkwhore

540 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:53:51pm

re: #275 brainwizard73

My favorite argument is the simplest (and totally non-religious):

A legislative body should be free to enact benefits and advantages to reward/encourage behavior that society finds valuable. Since promoting and growing communities is a good thing and since society has a direct interest in promotion of institutions that create children, it is the legislature's Provence to bestow benefits. The constitutional review standard should be "does the legislature have a rational basis for this law"? Almost all the time, any such benefit to married couples would be upheld.

If left wing moonbats can convince a majority of legislators to approve gay marriage, that is fine.

Problem is, they can't. They can't get it even anywhere close; so they have to rely on judicial fiat. A majority of Americans knew that racial discrimination was wrong and voted to effectively end it...not so with gay marriage.

Sal: Doesn't fly. If the feds hadn't stepped in, there would most likely still be poll taxes, school segregation and Jim Crow down here in the Deep South, because most whites liked it, and most blacks had a hard time voting against it.

The tyranny of the majority can be an ugly thing. It's what the Bill of Rights was written to prevent. But it didn't cover everything. As brilliant and prescient as our Founding Fathers and Framers were, they nevertheless remained people of their time. Which is why the US found itself in a terrible civil war 80 years later, and women didn't get to vote until 1920.

I'm straight, but not narrow. I have some gay cousins; they're family, and I love them, and wish them life, liberty, and to be able to pursue their own happiness as fully as I can. They are good and decent people. They didn't choose to be gay. They are patriotic, conservative in their sociopolitical outlooks, hold down steady and productive jobs, have lived monogamously with their life partners for many years, and are appalled by the San Fran type flaunting. They are precisely the sort of people we should be proud to be associated with.

541 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:57:52pm

re: #377 Occasional Reader

Exactly. Charles is risking being jumped by a Kraken, too. But will he listen to us? No, of course not.

+1 for the bad-ass Clutch tune.

542 Alberta Oil Peon  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 10:59:56pm

re: #539 Throbert McGee

Heh!

543 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 11:08:07pm

re: #411 tchad

Their claims that they support scientific inquiry have less credibility that the claims "This won't hurt a bit" and "The check is in the mail".

544 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 11:22:37pm

re: #306 spytalk

Until it became popular to be agnostic or atheist or liberal, most historical scientists were either Christian or people of Faith [Link: www.adherents.com...] they were not "Christian Scientists" they were scientists who were Christians who knew that something does not come out of nothing and that there is an inherent order, logic and design to all we can discover

Sal: They also knew not to bring their religion into their science. Inasmuch as they did, their science was bad.

[Link: www.aclj.org...] scientific terms are endless and to pick the bone over a scientific term when the guy is not claiming to be the top world scientist, but rather a proponent shows a pretty defensive/aggressive attitude. I'm not too interested in visiting lgf all that much anymore as of a couple months ago. My posts are "complete crap" yet I hold a few science degrees here and there.

This is precisely the claim made, but never supported, by InternationalObserver. And your posts are syntactical clones of each other. You a sock puppet?

Pretty aggressive people on this forum. If you want to be agnostic - good luck with that - I don't remember bashing anyone on personal terms. And I do remember stating that ID should not represent any particular "religion." For the record I'm stating *ID should not ever represent any particular "religion"* I've been following LGF for more than five years. (# of posts 13 - hmm, shows that I prefer to read, study, and think rather than flame at other posters - I'm also very busy most of the time). For those of you that disagree with me, keep this in mind, I disagree with you, ok? And yes, I did take some time this evening to read all of the harsh disagreement.

Sal: It's impossible for ID not to favor some faiths over others. Buddhists, Taoists and Confucians don't believe in an Intelligent Designer, while Jews, Christians, Muslims and Bahais believe in one, and Hindus and Pagans believe in more than one. So, even if the atheists, agnostics and secularists aren't taken into account, ID is irretrievably sectarian religious dogma, and as such, cannot be included in public high school science class.

545 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 11:32:30pm

re: #327 itellu3times

Heh.

If you can explain the difference between exaptations and what the ID folk believe in, I'd appreciate it. When I read Gould, I find him infuriating and his concept of exaptation completely opaque, unless he means ID, which he obviously doesn't.

Sal: What it means is something that developed for one function, then a mutation hijacks it and puts it at the service of another function.

Kinda like what happened to us a couple hundred thousand years ago when our cerebral hand-eye co-ordination module, elaborated, refined, tuned and honed over millions of years, was suddenly placed in the service of our mouth-ear nexus, for the production and parsing of speech. This allowed us to both produce and distinguish a vastly greater number of distinct phonemes, and permitted the creation of syntactically complex, high-vocabulary speech.

546 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 11:35:43pm

re: #468 brainwizard73

Why no COPS in Mayberry? I would tune in...

A weekly, half-hour show that focused on Otis sobering up just enough not to get brained by his wife when he went home? The novelty would wear off pretty quick.

/not much else goes on in Mayberry.

547 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 11:46:22pm

re: #473 BlueCanuck

That's perilously close to the scheme used over in Kozistan, where anyone can uprate, but only the 'right' correct "ideologically pure" people can wield the dinger (so to speak).

Fixed that for you. There are no right people located there at all.

Fixed that for you. The first one is free.
//

548 crosspatch  Mon, Jul 14, 2008 11:55:35pm

Intelligence can be artificial but stupidity is real.

549 Throbert McGee  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 12:07:37am

re: #540 Salamantis

The tyranny of the majority can be an ugly thing.

True dat.

But it is sometimes much uglier than at other times. If the majority votes its members the right to legally enslave members of a particular minority -- and I'm not talking about "enslavement" in the libertarian-pamphlet sense of non-voluntary taxation; I mean being able to take children from their parents and sell the children in chains to someone else, because you own the parents and children as chattel -- that's demonically ugly.

If the majority votes that the State can have the power to imprison or otherwise punish adults for consensual sodomy in the privacy of their own homes, that's not nearly so massive an evil as American slavery was, but it's still really damned ugly. For which reason I think that SCOTUS was completely justified in voiding such anti-sodomy laws in Lawrence v. Texas. (And if anyone wants to complain about "judicial activism," my retort is that the Great State of Texas fucking started it when deputies arrested John Lawrence and Tyrone Garner for having consensual buttseckx in Lawrence's bedroom. )

Similarly, if the majority votes that the State can have the power to arrest, imprison, or otherwise legally punish couples in mixed-race marriages -- a power that the Commonwealth of Virginia once had, and that it attempted to enforce against Mr. and Mrs. Loving after they got married in D.C. and then returned to Virginia -- that is also ugly, a form of tyranny, and in need of judicial correction.

Finally, however, if the majority merely votes against legal recognition for same-sex couples -- I would certainly call that a damned inconvenience and frankly suspect that many members of the voting majority were motivated by anti-homosexual prejudice.

But calling it "tyranny" is a stretch; comparing it to anti-miscegenation statutes is factually questionable (remember, the Lovings were placed under arrest by Virginia authorities and sentenced to a year in prison); and bringing up slavery takes the debate into the realm of grotesque and insensitive idiocy.

(Not that salamantis did all these things, but the moonbat described in #246 apparently did.)

550 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 12:20:49am

re: #460 pingjockey

Don't we still call the following theories still?
Gravity, Relativity, Quantum, String, Black Holes, even though evidence for all of these theories exist?

Sal: We really don't have any empirical evidence for string theory, which is why I consider it to be misnamed. More accurate terms might be 'hypothesis' or 'conjecture'.

We know THAT Gravity and black holes exist, although we're still figuring out things about them. Relativity definitely works, and has been empirically verified to do so. So does quantum mechanics - the results of its equations jive with what we can empirically observe. And the degree of Heisenbergian uncertainty is precisely mathematically calculable in particular cases.

We are still endeavoring to unite general relativity and quantum mechanics in a form that will allow us to explain gravity as well as electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear forces (these last three we already have a handle on). I favor Garrett Lisi's Grand Unified Theory Of Everything, which maps the structure of the universe onto the most complex mathematical object known to humankind, the Lie algebra e8 transform. It is a mathematically parsimonious and elegant solution. 228 known particles already map out perfectly onto its nodes, and 20 more are predicted by the model (e8 has 248 nodes). The model will be amenable to testing by the new LHC high-energy atom-smasher.

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

[Link: arxiv.org...]

551 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 2:21:51am

Concerning this so called "academic freedom"- I wonder if some of the ID proponents here would favor such a bill if it included revisionist history from a pat buchanan or nicholson baker, where hitler was misunderstood and Churchill "bloodthirsty". Why couldn't a teacher bring in books like that to supplement their classes under the guise of "academic freedom"? I think if one thinks it through, the idea of "academic freedom" in high school is a dangerous concept, where an individual teacher can defy the school board and state standards by wielding "academic freedom", and when parents, administrators, school boards and state agencies attempt to stop utter garbage like Holocaust revisionism, as an example, the teacher will be able to claim their freedom is being infringed upon. What recourse do we then have to protect the children from harmful lesson plans and propaganda?

552 freetoken  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 2:43:57am

re: #551 Sharmuta

Concerning this so called "academic freedom"- I wonder if some of the ID proponents here would favor such a bill if it included revisionist history....

Speaking of revisionist history... wait until Chuck Norris gets to lecture in Louisiana's science classes:


America's Founding Creationists

...
What many might not realize is that our Founders were familiar with naturalistic and evolutionary views of the sciences. Evolution has been around a lot longer than Darwin. And criticism for it also has been around a lot longer than Ben Stein's movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed." [...]

553 freetoken  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 3:11:40am

To amplify my previous post... for the morning crowd should they arrive....

The problem with Norris' statement is that it is too general and misleading (and that is not uncommon.) A great deal of what we know as "science" can be shown to have roots way back to the ancient Greeks. However, what is wrong with Norris' claim is that it overlooks the real additions to human knowledge gathered from Darwin onward, and any student which would be taught what Norris proposes would walk away from class with a very real misconception of what happened in biology from Darwin onward.

Perhaps Gov. Huckabee will have Chuck on his TV show to explain all of this to us....

554 Annar  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 3:57:13am

re: #252 wolfie

I 'd never leave the answer blank on a test.
If I had no clue, I'd put something, anything down.

I knew a Physics professor once who gave negative points for wrong answers and zero for a blank. The number of negative points for a mistake was calculated so as to make a randomly answered multiple choice test give a total score of zero. At the end of the semester there were some poor souls who owed him points.

555 erisldysnomia  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 4:00:25am

Arrogant morons rule:

"Anything I don't understand must be wrong."

cf: Unskilled and unaware (pdf)

1. Incompetent individuals, compared with their more competent peers, will dramatically overestimate their ability and performance relative to objective criteria.
2. Incompetent individuals will suffer from deficient metacognitive skills, in that they will be less able than their more competent peers to recognize competence when they see it–be it their own or anyone else's.
3. Incompetent individuals will be less able than their more competent peers to gain insight into their true level of performance by means of social comparison information. In particular, because of their difficulty recognizing competence in others, incompetent individuals will be unable to use information about the choices and performances of others to form more accurate impressions of their own ability.
4. The incompetent can gain insight about their shortcomings, but this comes (paradoxically) by making them more competent, thus providing them the metacognitive skills necessary to be able to realize that they have performed poorly.

556 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 7:03:44am
557 keithgabryelski  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 7:23:55am

re: #316 Shiplord Kirel


Then compare what you have seen to the evidence of erosion in the nearby hills, whole mountains gradually chewed away and spread in fans across the plains. Then ask yourself: Is it really possible that these buildings are a third as old as the Earth itself?

There is another way:

Trees have rings.

Those rings increase and decrease their thickness depending on the environment.

These changes in rings size leave a signature that is the same across wood that came from the same area.

By overlapping tree ring signatures we can connect and count years longer than the life of a single tree.

We can count back longer than 10,000 years using this mechanism.

YEC say the earth is 6,000 years old.

BZZZT.

558 keithgabryelski  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 7:26:44am

Wikipedia has some information on this field of tree ring chronology (called dendrochronology):
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

559 ELC  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 7:30:58am

Umm... excuse me... but I'd like to put the comments back on topic. It looks to me as if a little something has been overlooked:

1. Shubin et al.: The intermedium and ulnare of Tiktaalik have homologues to eponymous wrist bones of tetrapods with which they share similar positions and articular relations.

The only use of the word eponymous in the quoted article is itself in a quotation. That is, in a sentence credited by Luskin to Shubin. (That's what those silly little doohickeys called quotation marks mean: Luskin is quoting Shubin.)

So, either Shubin himself misused the word "eponymous" or Luskin misquoted Shubin. From what we have here, it's not possible to tell which is the case.

But I haven't seen a claim here that Luskin misquoted Shubin. (True, I may have missed that claim in 550+ comments.) So, prima facie, if the word has been misused, it's Shubin who misused it, not Luskin.

So... why all the hysterical glee here?

560 keithgabryelski  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 7:34:00am

re: #550 Salamantis

We really don't have any empirical evidence for string theory, which is why I consider it to be misnamed. More accurate terms might be 'hypothesis' or 'conjecture'.

I think this is a very important point of Sal's. String Theory (as it is known) is not falsifiable (for the foreseeable future). That separates it from science.

To be short: it doesn't matter if string theory is "correct" or "bogus"-- since it provides little help in understanding the world until it provides predictions that we can test.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Like any other quantum theory of gravity, it is widely believed that testing the theory experimentally would be prohibitively expensive, requiring feats of engineering on a solar-system scale. Although string theory, like any other scientific theory, is falsifiable in principle, critics maintain that it is unfalsifiable for the foreseeable future, and so should not be called science.

561 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 7:41:51am

re: #63 Charles

And this is a good time to mention that I'm going to be closing the Lizard Lounge soon, because it's become a haven for anti-science people to bitch about what I post at LGF.

I have no interest in paying for people to whine about me.

I shall beg you to please not close the Lizard Lounge. There, from what I have observed, is the same back and forth in the Lounge that we see here in the threads. It's been a very fun place to exchange ideas even if it can be derailed at times by the nuts. The nuts who bitch, whine, moan, etc, usually get banned anyway in due time. The VB supporters there did, and I suspect those who whine now will as well.

562 librarian  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 7:46:48am

In my view, whether the universe was purposefully created or is the result of random forces is an issue that conservatives of good will can disagree about. It is getting a little discouraging to see new posts every day that ridicule, hector and abuse the people of faith who otherwise share a worldview with you, Charles, and the others at this site. In your efforts to distance yourself from "fundamentalists," please be kind to those who view the origins of the world in a more traditional way. Even those of us who believe the creator may have used evolution to achieve his purposes tire of being belittled.

563 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 7:56:25am

re: #260 Charles

And then "Sky King" took over and started dinging like crazy.

Fascinating.

Good grief. How many sock puppets do these folks have?

564 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:05:40am

re: #562 librarian

Proposing that the posts on this issue (The Discovery Institute's agenda to insert a disguised form of creationism into high school science classes) is an effort to "ridicule, hector, and abuse" people of faith is a mis-characterization of the whole conversation. What they are engaged in is a program of lies to support their belief in a higher truth. They are demonstrating that they think the end justifies the means. Pointing that out should not be a problem for anyone who values truth.

565 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:09:47am

re: #526 Charles

OK, after a lot of emails and a lot of pleading, I'll hold off on closing the Lounge right now, until I can figure out if there's a way to keep it a bit more in control.

I'm not going to just close it down with no warning, in any case.

Thanks. :-) If I could give you more updings than just one, I would.

566 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:16:48am

re: #564 jaunte

They are demonstrating that they think the end justifies the means. Pointing that out should not be a problem for anyone who values truth.

I'm still having trouble determining how they can justify to themselves the use of these tactics ~ I can't jump through that hoop of cognitive dissonance I guess.

567 mossley  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:21:49am

re: #562 librarian

Sorry, but claiming martyr status isn't an effective technique. No one is attacking people of faith; they're trying to keep religion out of a science class room. Feel free to discuss your beliefs at home or in church, but it's not appropriate to disguise an obvious religious belief in scientific clothing, all the while smearing legitimate science, in a school setting.

568 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:22:14am

re: #562 librarian

In my view, whether the universe was purposefully created or is the result of random forces is an issue that conservatives of good will can disagree about. It is getting a little discouraging to see new posts every day that ridicule, hector and abuse the people of faith who otherwise share a worldview with you, Charles, and the others at this site. In your efforts to distance yourself from "fundamentalists," please be kind to those who view the origins of the world in a more traditional way. Even those of us who believe the creator may have used evolution to achieve his purposes tire of being belittled.

They just keep coming back with this stuff.

The dishonesty on display in this story doesn't bother you? How do you square the idiocy and lying with your faith? It's sad that you don't see it -- the Discovery Institute are the ones who are ridiculing and abusing you, and you just ignore it.

569 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:24:13am

re: #559 ELC

Umm... excuse me... but I'd like to put the comments back on topic. It looks to me as if a little something has been overlooked:

1. Shubin et al.: The intermedium and ulnare of Tiktaalik have homologues to eponymous wrist bones of tetrapods with which they share similar positions and articular relations.

The only use of the word eponymous in the quoted article is itself in a quotation. That is, in a sentence credited by Luskin to Shubin. (That's what those silly little doohickeys called quotation marks mean: Luskin is quoting Shubin.)

So, either Shubin himself misused the word "eponymous" or Luskin misquoted Shubin. From what we have here, it's not possible to tell which is the case.

But I haven't seen a claim here that Luskin misquoted Shubin. (True, I may have missed that claim in 550+ comments.) So, prima facie, if the word has been misused, it's Shubin who misused it, not Luskin.

So... why all the hysterical glee here?

You have completely missed the point. Try reading it again, and you might try actually following the link to the article if it's still confusing.

570 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:24:50am

P.S. There is no "hysterical glee" here.

571 ELC  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:47:04am

re: #569 Charles

You have completely missed the point. Try reading it again, and you might try actually following the link to the article if it's still confusing.

Ah. I see. Thanks.

I had actually thought it more likely that Luskin misquoted Shubin because "eponymous" is not quite the right word to use in that context since the source of the names (intermedium and ulnare) is not a person. (If "eponymous" has been appropriated in a biological context to mean merely "named after", I am unaware of that.)

[Link: www.bartleby.com...]

572 kansas  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:54:34am

Note to Discovery Institute shill Casey Luskin:

To prevent future embarrassment when “critiquing” scientific papers, please look up the words you don’t understand. The word “eponymous” means “named after.”

The great thing about the current state of education in this country is that words really have no actual meaning and are just opinion. Much like math is opinion, history is totally opinion and opinions are neither right nor wrong. They just are.

573 Ceemack  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:03:44am

re: #38 Liz Ard

it really isn't about liking liars, it's about whether or not I want to spend my time reading more and more about the obvious.


That gun being held to your head, forcing you to read this post and the comments on it...is it a revolver or a semiauto?

574 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:21:18am

re: #573 Ceemack

That gun being held to your head, forcing you to read this post and the comments on it...is it a revolver or a semiauto?

No, I'd say it was Stinky Beaumont's big banning stick.

575 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:25:32am

eponymous

e-pon-y-mous
adjective

Definition:
giving a name to something: having the name that is used as the title or name of something else, especially the title of a book, play, or movie

576 keithgabryelski  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:30:27am

re: #575 Charles

eponymous

there are plenty of definitions that include only those things (eponyms) that are named after a person. or, more specifically, to apply one's name to something.

but, from the greek:

epi: to
onoma: name

which leans towards your, more general, definition.

577 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:38:57am

re: #576 keithgabryelski

Right - the point is that it's not incorrect to use 'eponymous' the way Shubin did.

578 Boston Patriot  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:42:22am

If the ID people need something to explain that which exists, what explains the "intelligent being" which created everything? He must have been created by someone/something. And then, you fall into the irrational hole of: "if somthing intelligent must create that which is intelligable, then who created the intelligent being. And who created the one before that. And the one bofre that. And why did they (by definition) wait for an infinite amount of time to create something?"

It makes no sense.

Reality is what it is.

We observe it.

We learn what we can from it.

And we make our lives more comfortable in the process.

Blindly ignoring philosphical axioms in favor of a haunted universe creates thing like the Dark Ages and Militanat Islam, etc. The evidence abounds.

579 Boston Patriot  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:44:36am

p.s.

Booga-Booga!

580 keithgabryelski  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:47:35am

re: #577 Charles

Right - the point is that it's not incorrect to use 'eponymous' the way Shubin did.

i disagree.

“The intermedium and ulnare of Tiktaalik have homologues to eponymous wrist bones of tetrapods with which they share similar positions and articular relations.”

The BONEx and BONEy of ANIMAL have (the range of) "same bones oriented in a different way" [homologoues] to "bones named after their ancestor's bone" [eponymous] in the wrist area of ANIMALS in ANIMAL-GROUP.

or, at least, that is how I read that sentence.

is that NOT a correct statement?
it seems an appropriate use of eponymous to me.

581 keithgabryelski  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:48:04am

re: #577 Charles

Right - the point is that it's not incorrect to use 'eponymous' the way Shubin did.

DUH! i missed the word "incorrect" in your post.

BAH

carry on

582 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:49:11am

re: #580 keithgabryelski

I think you misunderstood -- I wrote "NOT incorrect."

583 keithgabryelski  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:50:00am

re: #582 Charles

I think you misunderstood -- I wrote "NOT incorrect."

yep. i misunderstood you. i agree with your statement.

584 J.S.  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:50:09am

I think I may have stated this previously (if I'm becoming repetitive, please excuse me)...for the nth time -- String Theory is a theory, and it is science. It's falls into the category of theoretical physics. Ditto for such subjects as Cosmology. What these topics are based on is this -- it is Mathematical Models...NOT experimentation or even "observations" in the standard sense. Again, mathematics is at the core; it's the driving force (and at later dates there may be observational data to vindicate a theory -- a larger particle accelerator, etc.) Here's a Wiki article...Martin Rees -- in the text -- "Before the Beginning" explains the field of cosmology; there are many, many other texts written for the lay public ("Elegant Universe" by Brian Greene), etc. I think far too much emphasis is being placed on Popper's restrictive definitions of what constitutes "science".

585 hans ze beeman  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 1:47:15pm

re: #584 J.S.

I think far too much emphasis is being placed on Popper's restrictive definitions of what constitutes "science".

Well, if you define science as the systematic development of theories by testing derived hypotheses against empirical evidence exclusively, then mathematics is not science. Rather, it is a streak of philosophy and a complex framework of statements that is built upon axioms which transcend empiricism.

However, even mathematics has greatly evolved over the centuries (think about the invention of 0 for example - mathematicians of Roman schooling dropped their abacuses in a swoon when they heard about this). In the sense that mathematical proofs and statements can be validated and checked, one could classify it as a form of science, but in that case, we are close to Popper again.

586 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 2:19:02pm

re: #559 ELC

Umm... excuse me... but I'd like to put the comments back on topic. It looks to me as if a little something has been overlooked:

1. Shubin et al.: The intermedium and ulnare of Tiktaalik have homologues to eponymous wrist bones of tetrapods with which they share similar positions and articular relations.

The only use of the word eponymous in the quoted article is itself in a quotation. That is, in a sentence credited by Luskin to Shubin. (That's what those silly little doohickeys called quotation marks mean: Luskin is quoting Shubin.)

So, either Shubin himself misused the word "eponymous" or Luskin misquoted Shubin. From what we have here, it's not possible to tell which is the case.

But I haven't seen a claim here that Luskin misquoted Shubin. (True, I may have missed that claim in 550+ comments.) So, prima facie, if the word has been misused, it's Shubin who misused it, not Luskin.

So... why all the hysterical glee here?

Sal: No, the fact is that Shubin used the word both correctly and informatively, to indicate that the bones of one appendage were isomorphic with (like) the eponymous bones, that is, the BONES OF THE SAME NAME, in the other appendage being compared. Kuskin apparently didn't know what the word 'eponymous' meant.

587 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 2:29:39pm

re: #562 librarian

In my view, whether the universe was purposefully created or is the result of random forces is an issue that conservatives of good will can disagree about. It is getting a little discouraging to see new posts every day that ridicule, hector and abuse the people of faith who otherwise share a worldview with you, Charles, and the others at this site. In your efforts to distance yourself from "fundamentalists," please be kind to those who view the origins of the world in a more traditional way. Even those of us who believe the creator may have used evolution to achieve his purposes tire of being belittled.

Sal: If you are a theist who views the Big Bang and/or evolution as deific mechanisms, your views have not been lampooned, except by a tiny minority of the most extreme and rude. The people who are being quite justly held up for opprobrium and ridicule are the Disco Institute theocratic shills who are endeavoring to PR propaganda rename their version of creationism, which is indisputably a sectarian religious dogma, as ID, in order to deviously and illegitimately shoehorn it into public high school science classes and teach it to everybody's children as science, without the parents' knowledge or consent.

People who contend that the earth is only a few thousand year old and who contend that species were created separately as is are also subjected to judicious ribbing, for embracing stances that are conclusively refuted by voluminous empirical evidence in biology, paleontology, geology, and genetics.

588 J.S.  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 2:39:28pm

re: #585 hans ze beeman

In 1916 Karl Schwarzschild solved Einstein's equations of general relativity which gave rise to the concept of "black holes" (the term coined by Wheeler). It took 50 years before observational data confirmed the existence of "black holes." So what were theoretical physicists doing for those 50 years? Philosophising? And what was the status of "black holes" during this time? (Theoretical physics is science, but not of the standard sort..again, it's not driven by observation data/experimentation, but by mathematical models.)

589 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 2:43:02pm

re: #588 J.S.

In 1916 Karl Schwarzschild solved Einstein's equations of general relativity which gave rise to the concept of "black holes" (the term coined by Wheeler). It took 50 years before observational data confirmed the existence of "black holes." So what were theoretical physicists doing for those 50 years? Philosophising? And what was the status of "black holes" during this time? (Theoretical physics is science, but not of the standard sort..again, it's not driven by observation data/experimentation, but by mathematical models.)

That's all well and good, but what I want to know is, why do you hate religion?

cough

590 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 2:45:44pm

re: #585 hans ze beeman

Well, if you define science as the systematic development of theories by testing derived hypotheses against empirical evidence exclusively, then mathematics is not science. Rather, it is a streak of philosophy and a complex framework of statements that is built upon axioms which transcend empiricism.

However, even mathematics has greatly evolved over the centuries (think about the invention of 0 for example - mathematicians of Roman schooling dropped their abacuses in a swoon when they heard about this). In the sense that mathematical proofs and statements can be validated and checked, one could classify it as a form of science, but in that case, we are close to Popper again.

Sal: But then Kurt Godel comes along and blows the whole mathematical enterprise out of the water with his Incompleteness Theorem, that proves that mathematical systems have to choose between incorrectness and incompleteness. Like so:

Let's say we have axiomatic system A. All statements within A are true, and no true statements are outside it. Now let us construct statement B. B is a self-referential statement: B states that "B is not an axiom of A." What has happened?

Well, if B is inside A, then A contains a false statement (B's statement that it is outside A). However, if B is outside A, then A does not contain B's true statement that it is outside of A; A therefore does not contain all true statements. To put it simply, B cannot fit either inside or outside A; to put it more precisely, B either belongs both inside and outside A, or neither inside nor outside A, and the paradox is unresolveable. The bottom falls out; we behold mathematics as ultimately a Zen koan. Godel's conclusion: any axiomatic system that claims internal consistency and is complex enough to allow self-referential statements must necessarily be incomplete. The physical world, btw, is ensnared in this selfsame Godelian quandary; the wave/particle duality of light, the absence of a fixed frame of reference, the equivalence of matter and energy, the inseparable symbiosis of space and time – the theory is no sterile abstraction.

And thus forever crumbles the idealistic dream of an abstract mathematical system that can symbolically circumscribe all of the (and only the) true.

591 J.S.  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 3:31:45pm

re: #589 Charles

I don't hate religion...although I do find some practitioners of religion a "problem." (I don't know -- there are so many examples of people going over the deep end in pursuit of some "religion"... They're "deviants", as in criminals ? hypocrites? ignorant? And, of course, I don't want to single out "the religious" per se...there are plenty of secular people acting horrifically...but there's just something beyond acceptable if you use "religion" to justify murder, child rape, mutilation, torture, etc. And, it's (unfortunately) not just Islam...It's radical LDS sect followers...it's that Wako cult, it's the hatreds which are voiced -- it's as if once you've "got religion" it grants a license to demonize others...on and on. The whole aspect of "supernaturalism" also scares me...it strikes me as someone losing their sanity...becoming possessed? that loss of rationality..(I think of that play by Euripides..."The Bacchae"....the "religious frenzy" leading to murder and cannibalism..) But, I do think that certain tenets (moral precepts) as contained in certain religious texts should be honored (respected) and it gives guidance (provides wisdom/insights) -- but this needs to be practiced/understood with some humility? (not triumphalist?) I don't know, I guess I'm conflicted...

592 J.S.  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 4:43:24pm

Also, when (ahem!) certain individuals are not acting "crazoid" (like Shites frantically whipping themselves with chains), then (many, not all) act like brain-washed zombies (not the Zombie who posts here)...I recall listening to those fundamentalist LDS women (on CNN) dressed in their 18 hundreds outfits talking like Stepford wives...with that flat, expressionless tone, repeating the same "talking points..." ("we just want our children back"..and to do what to them?) Anyway, and it's somewhat similar with the ID people. For example, they will repeat the phrase (this is just one example) about the "creation of the universe through chance", along with the coupling of evolutionary theory with "chance." And no matter how many times it's explained, that natural selection does not occur "through chance" they'll repeat themselves -- it's as if they are not able to learn...or like having a record stuck on "repeat." (it's annoying...and really doesn't advance their "cause.")

593 '  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 5:34:59pm

Don't have time for a well-worded post, but that use of eponymous does seem strange. I understand what Shubin means by it, but "of the same name" etc would seem better to me. "Eponymous bone" means something like "Johnson's bone"; after all, the intermedium and ulnare of tetrapods are not named after the intermedium and ulnare of Tiktaalik.

594 Carridine  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:40:29pm

re: #593 '

Don't have time for a well-worded post, but that use of eponymous does seem strange. I understand what Shubin means by it, but "of the same name" etc would seem better to me. "Eponymous bone" means something like "Johnson's bone"; after all, the intermedium and ulnare of tetrapods are not named after the intermedium and ulnare of Tiktaalik.

No, you're right, its the bones of Tiktaalik that are named after the bones we found in OUR wrists... the intermedium and ulnare... named AFTER in the frame of research, but not AFTER as references absolute time... Tiktaalik obviously came first, '...

595 DeathtotheSwiss  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:33:21pm

Your Inner Fish

I bought this book at the behest of an article by Orson Scott Card and have not regretted it once. It explains evolution in a way that is simple and easy to understand. He explains palentology the same.

Wonderful read.

596 DeathtotheSwiss  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:38:31pm

I think he's a nut, but I heard the guy this morning on the single AM station we have here in Wichita Falls, TX. He was talking about how time can be manipulated by light since light is affected by gravity. He's legitimately an expert on black-holes mind you but...anyways, here's the link.

Time Machine Man


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