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IslamOnline: Why Muslims Should Support Intelligent Design

Tue, Jul 15, 2008 at 8:44:38 pm PDT

When they aren’t busy praising Osama bin Laden or applauding Hamas for murdering Jews, the Wahhabi propaganda site IslamOnline is fully on board with the Discovery Institute and their “intelligent design” hoax: Why Muslims Should Support Intelligent Design.

Intellectual Muslims, fed up with the pathological anti-Western hatred of the radicals who defame Islam by their violent acts, are seeking the right way to express and stand for their faith and identity in the modern world.

Intellectual Christians have already found that way. They encountered materialism before we did, because it grew right in the heart of Christendom. They have been standing against it for several decades. And recently they have initiated a bold movement—a “wedge” as they call it—to split the foundations of materialism.

This “wedge” is the code name for the Intelligent Design Movement, formed in the early 1990s by Christian scientists and intellectuals. The leader of the movement is Phillip E. Johnson, a prominent professor of law from the University of California, Berkeley. During a sabbatical year in London in 1987, Dr. Johnson read about Darwinism and noticed that Darwinian ideologues like Richard Dawkins use deceptive arguments to sell their unsubstantiated story. He decided to dedicate the rest of life to unravel this sophisticated fallacy. His first book, Darwin on Trial (1991), annoyed the Darwinist establishment terribly, but it was just a beginning. In the following years, serious scientists like Michael Behe from Lehigh University, William Dembski from Baylor University, and Paul Nelson from the University of Chicago joined the ranks of the movement.

Today the movement, headed by the Discovery Institute in Seattle and the Intelligent Design Network in Kansas, is leading a great battle first to free school textbooks and then the whole of society from the Darwinist dogma and the materialist philosophy it supports.

Intelligent Design (ID) is a term that implies creation. The universe and life are not products of blind forces of nature, ID holds, but show evidence that they were designed by an intelligence. The ID Movement has deliberately chosen not to specify the identity of the Designer. Through science you can demonstrate convincingly that there is a designer, but you can’t go further without invoking theology. Everybody has the right to believe in a Designer according his own theology. What makes the movement effective is its emphasis on solid scientific evidence.

This non-theological nature of the ID Movement also makes it inter-religious. Whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or any other kind of theist, you can identify with the movement. This movement defines the particular paradigm of science we would like to have, and it is science that defines society in the long run.

Muslims should also note the great similarity between the arguments of the Intelligent Design Movement and Islamic sources. Hundreds of verses in the Qur’an call people to examine the natural world and see in it the evidence of God. Great Islamic scholars like Ghazali wrote large volumes about design in animals, plants, and the human body. What Intelligent Design theorists like Behe or Dembski do today is to refine the same argument with the findings of modern science.

In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it.

Notice that they know exactly what the Wedge Strategy is all about, and they highly approve of it.

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1 Opilio  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:45:11pm

Hey Walter! Here's your thread!

2 pegcity  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:45:12pm

there is no compulsion in islam

/do it!

3 stuck in california  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:46:18pm

You go, Charles!

4 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:46:39pm

Wish, and it shall be granted!
(sometimes...)

5 HelloDare  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:46:43pm

Hey, Islam, compulse this.

6 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:47:18pm

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

For bonus points, use the following criteria:

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

/Lather, rinse, repeat

7 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:47:21pm

Ouch!

8 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:48:31pm

"Academic freedom" will apply to Islamists too. Make no mistake about it.

9 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:48:43pm

I love this paragraph.

"Muslims should also note the great similarity between the arguments of the Intelligent Design Movement and Islamic sources. Hundreds of verses in the Qur’an call people to examine the natural world and see in it the evidence of God. Great Islamic scholars like Ghazali wrote large volumes about design in animals, plants, and the human body. What Intelligent Design theorists like Behe or Dembski do today is to refine the same argument with the findings of modern science."

It makes it sound like the ID movement got all their arguments from "Islamic sources."

Well, I guess their right. They did invent EVERYTHING, right?

Walter in Golden, Co.

10 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:49:15pm

Okay, for the ID'ers. If life was designed by a great being, he probably left a message somewhere. Look at DNA inertons. If you can find a message there I will believe.

/start digging and decoding folks.

11 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:49:17pm
In short, Intelligent Design is not alien to Islam. It is very much our cause, and we should do everything we can to support it.

And this is exactly what many of us have been saying to the IDers all along- you let ID into the science classroom and islam will follow.

Deny this at your own peril!

12 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:49:42pm

Islam will always start off on the wrong foot with creation when they insist that the earth is flat.

I will also refuse to allow myself to be duped by the ecumenical hugfest proposed when I know that I will lose my head, and my daughter would be "married" off and raped.

13 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:50:07pm
What makes the movement effective is its emphasis on solid scientific evidence.

Well, there's something solid there, but I think it's waste.

14 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:50:59pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

"Academic freedom" will apply to Islamists too. Make no mistake about it.

And what should stop it from being in history class either? Hello Holocaust revisionism.

15 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:51:06pm

well, *that's* a harsh toke....... %-)

that's not gonna go over well in certain circles.

/adding an extra layer on the overhead cover and closing the hatch

16 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:52:58pm

re: #10 BlueCanuck

Okay, for the ID'ers. If life was designed by a great being, he probably left a message somewhere. Look at DNA inertons. If you can find a message there I will believe.

/start digging and decoding folks.

G*d is female:
that's why nothing makes any sense to us, and we can't figure out the message......

/white smoke

17 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:54:24pm

re: #6 Slumbering Behemoth

How many times did you post this on that thread earlier? 3? 4?

18 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:54:31pm

re: #9 Walter L. Newton

That's a very important point. Al-Ghazali is credited with the destruction of the Islamic world in the 11th century through his work The Incoherence of the Philosophers in which he rejected the Greek philosophers with their "reason", "logic" and "imperical evidence" as heretical because they didn't account for the wisdom of Allah as revealed in the Quran. There is a very strong parallel between the Disco Institute and Al- Ghazali and it could result in a similar collapse in our civilization as well.

19 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:54:46pm

re: #16 redc1c4

G*d is female:
that's why nothing makes any sense to us, and we can't figure out the message......

/white smoke

I am sure there are enough female scientists to do any decoding.

/any more room in your shelter?

20 kevinmumaw  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:54:47pm

re: #2 pegcity

there is no compulsion in islam

/do it!

Do it.

21 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:55:49pm

re: #10 BlueCanuck

Okay, for the ID'ers. If life was designed by a great being, he probably left a message somewhere. Look at DNA inertons. If you can find a message there I will believe.

/start digging and decoding folks.

I think I found something here:

C-H-E-C-K
Y-O-U-R
F-L-Y

Huh?

22 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:55:55pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

That's a very important point. Al-Ghazali is credited with the destruction of the Islamic world in the 11th century through his work The Incoherence of the Philosophers in which he rejected the Greek philosophers with their "reason", "logic" and "imperical evidence" as heretical because they didn't account for the wisdom of Allah as revealed in the Quran. There is a very strong parallel between the Disco Institute and Al- Ghazali and it could result in a similar collapse in our civilization as well.

Ah, what you said.

23 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:56:03pm

re: #16 redc1c4

G*d is female: that's why nothing makes any sense to us, and we can't figure out the message......

/white smoke

Um, again, sorry, but if G-d declares Himself to be the Father, and He is a female are you not adding weight to argument that man is woman and woman is man and each can marry the same or either/or?

Just askin?

24 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:56:08pm

re: #14 Sharmuta

Yup, CAIR would love to teach Civics and Western Civ through an Islamist filter. "Academic Freedom" would permit it, no problem.

25 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:57:16pm

Notice that they know exactly what the Wedge Strategy is all about, and they highly approve of it.

26 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:57:29pm

re: #19 BlueCanuck

I am sure there are enough female scientists to do any decoding.

/any more room in your shelter?


Shouldnt females be in the kitchen with a swag of young'ns under foot?

[sprints for shelter]

27 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:57:33pm

"...contemporary Muslim intellectuals like Harun Yahya put great emphasis on the case against materialism and its main pillar, Darwinism."

"...there is good news. We are not alone in this battle. There is another powerful component in the West that is determined to root out materialism. That force is Christianity."

Said Nursi, in the 1950s, foresaw an alliance between Islam and Christianity against materialism. He prophetically wrote, “A tyrannical current born of naturalist and materialist philosophy will gradually gain strength and spread at the end of time, reaching such a degree that it denies God. ... Although defeated before the atheistic current while separate, Christianity and Islam will have the capability to defeat and rout it as a result of their alliance” (Nursi, Letters, s. 77-78). Half a century after Nursi, the stage for that alliance is set.

Sal: Uh-huh...Methinks the roots of the Yahya and Disco trees have inextricably intertwined underground...

28 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:59:14pm

re: #22 Walter L. Newton
Al-Ghazali.....

"The Naturalists (al-tabi'yun): They are a group of people who are constantly studying the natural world and the wonders of animals and plants. They are frequendy engaging in the science of anatomy/dissection ('Urn al-tashiih) of animal bodies, and through it they perceive the wonders of God's design and the marvels of His wisdom. With this they are compelled to acknowledge a wise Creator Who is aware of die ends and purposes of things. No one can study anatomy/dissection and the wonders of the utilities of the parts widiout deducing this unavoidable inference—that is, the perfection of the design of the Creator with regard to the structure (binyah) of animals and especially the structure of humans.

Sounds like the Disco Institute to me.

29 Tigger2005  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 8:59:25pm

These people are weak, and spoiled, and ignorant of history, and tired of freedom. It's just too HARD. They want to be ruled by absolute religious certainty, and they'll take Muslim help to make that happen. Then they'll find out why their forefathers fled Europe...and why Muslim countries are such hellholes of Muslims killing Muslims.

30 Ojoe  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:00:38pm

O for the wisdom of the Catholic church in this matter!
Christianity & evoution are compatable

Charles thank you for featuring this issue, it is a trap.

31 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:00:47pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

Al-Ghazali.....
The Naturalists (al-tabi'yun): They are a group of people who are constantly studying the natural world and the wonders of animals and plants. They are frequendy engaging in the science of anatomy/dissection ('Urn al-tashiih) of animal bodies, and through it they perceive the wonders of God's design and the marvels of His wisdom. With this they are compelled to acknowledge a wise Creator Who is aware of die ends and purposes of things. No one can study anatomy/dissection and the wonders of the utilities of the parts widiout deducing this unavoidable inference—that is, the perfection of the design of the Creator with regard to the structure (binyah) of animals and especially the structure of humans.

Sounds like the Disco Institute to me.

Sounds like haruspicy to me.

32 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:00:54pm

re: #26 A Kiwi Infidel

Only if red approves, and you come with supplies.

/the stronger the better.

33 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:02:05pm
Intellectual Muslims, fed up with the pathological anti-Western hatred of the radicals who defame Islam by their violent acts, are seeking the right way to express and stand for their faith and identity in the modern world.

Right idea, wrong direction.

34 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:02:26pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Yup, CAIR would love to teach Civics and Western Civ through an Islamist filter. "Academic Freedom" would permit it, no problem.

And guys like pat buchanan could be used as additional "education" resources.

Lovely.

35 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:03:10pm

re: #8 Killgore Trout

Excellent use of scare quotes, there!

36 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:03:31pm

re: #34 Sharmuta

Not to mention Howard Zinn and Ward Chuchhill...

37 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:03:37pm

re: #25 Charles

I did.

38 ggt  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:03:38pm

re: #27 Salamantis

I've noticed that most of those who want "you" to denouce materialism (for your soul)--really just want "you" to give "them" your stuff so they don't have to work/steal it for themselves.

39 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:05:06pm

re: #9 Walter L. Newton

So do a lot of hymns. And they're better poetry (well, actually, since all I know of the Koran is translation, and poetry doesn't translate, that may be unjust).

40 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:06:06pm
This non-theological nature of the ID Movement also makes it inter-religious. Whether you are a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, or any other kind of theist, you can identify with the movement. This movement defines the particular paradigm of science we would like to have, and it is science that defines society in the long run.

Which means no science at all and society, in the long run, becomes the ummah.

41 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:06:21pm

Are you kidding me? Now we have someone preaching "end times" in the zombie thread?

42 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:07:47pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

Yes!

I stopped talking about that more than a year ago, since no one seemed interested. Thanks for reviving a truly excellent point - that islam has gone backwards, even in its own terms.

43 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:08:11pm

re: #38 ggt

I've noticed that most of those who want "you" to denouce materialism (for your soul)--really just want "you" to give "them" your stuff so they don't have to work/steal it for themselves.

Nice broad brush, that.

44 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:08:14pm

I wonder if there are any defenders of the DI and the Wedge strategy here tonight that would venture to comment on this parallel.

45 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:08:21pm

re: #17 reine.de.tout


How many times did you post this on that thread earlier? 3? 4?

Three times, all to the same poster, ignored every time. I've thought about spamming these ID threads with that message, but I don't want to test anyone's patience, least of all our host's.

46 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:08:52pm

re: #38 ggt

I've noticed that most of those who want "you" to denouce materialism (for your soul)--really just want "you" to give "them" your stuff so they don't have to work/steal it for themselves.

They want you to have to give them your stuff...and your freedom, too. The latter worries me more. With freedom, I can earn enough to buy more stuff, but no amount of stuff will buy my freedom.

I'd have to take it back...by force. Which is the only way that they're gonna get it from me in the first place. And my life and my freedom are a package deal; you can't have the second as long as I still have the first.

47 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:09:02pm

re: #41 Charles

Are you kidding me? Now we have someone preaching "end times" in the zombie thread?


Really? Off we go.............

48 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:09:23pm

re: #42 Dianna

I thought islam was trying to reach the nadir of perfection for their religion. The 8th century.

49 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:09:29pm

Pat Buchanan's hate rag calls us "buffoons:"

[Link: www.amconmag.com...]

50 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:09:45pm

re: #41 Charles

I was watching it happen. So, yes.

My youth group leader was telling us we were in the end times back in the 1970's. People kept telling me that the 1980's were it, then the 1990's.

Heck, the number of "end times" throughout history - including my personal favorite, the turn of the year 1000 - is pretty astonishing.

51 allah this  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:10:55pm

Anyone doubting Darwin's theory need only look at the likes of dinnerjacket to know we came from primates. Open and shut case.

52 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:11:08pm

re: #48 BlueCanuck

It's a very sad history.

53 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:11:27pm

re: #49 Charles

Pat Buchanan's hate rag calls us "buffoons:"

[Link: www.amconmag.com...]

Coming from them- it's a compliment.

54 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:11:35pm

re: #49 Charles

Pat Buchanan's hate rag calls us "buffoons:"

[Link: www.amconmag.com...]

Do we care?

55 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:12:20pm

re: #49 Charles

Hmmm.... Must have us confused with some one else, we are Lizards!

56 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:12:58pm

re: #51 allah this

Anyone doubting Darwin's theory need only look at the likes of dinnerjacket to know we came from primates. Open and shut case.

Indeed.

57 HelloDare  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:13:29pm

re: #41 Charles

Are you kidding me? Now we have someone preaching "end times" in the zombie thread?

Library of Date setters for end of the world!

58 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:13:50pm

re: #54 Dianna

I wondered what happened to the Bund. There they are.

59 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:13:51pm

re: #23 A Kiwi Infidel

Um, again, sorry, but if G-d declares Himself to be the Father, and He is a female are you not adding weight to argument that man is woman and woman is man and each can marry the same or either/or?

Just askin?

What? Whose god? A hermaphrodite god? Lizards, help me out, which mythology/religion has a hermaphrodite god/goddess? I'm sure there must be one.

60 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:14:01pm

re: #49 Charles

Fuck 'em.

61 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:14:02pm

buffon = baboon = apes = apes & pigs

62 Jimmah  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:14:47pm
Intellectual Muslims, fed up with the pathological anti-Western hatred of the radicals who defame Islam by their violent acts, are seeking the right way to express and stand for their faith and identity in the modern world.

We muslims are not violent - we're IGNORANT!.

63 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:14:55pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth

Check the Hindu religion. I think they have one or two like that there.

64 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:14:56pm

re: #49 Charles

Pat Buchanan's hate rag calls us "buffoons:"

[Link: www.amconmag.com...]

I've been called worse by far better.

65 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:15:06pm

re: #58 jaunte

*Sigh*.

It does feel familiar, doesn't it?

66 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:15:12pm

re: #25 Charles

Notice that they know exactly what the Wedge Strategy is all about, and they highly approve of it.

...by the company you keep.

67 formercorpsman  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:15:58pm

re: #38 ggt

I will take issue with that.

Yes, there are some out there who see it that way, who claim to be acting in accordance with faith.

There are just as many, if not quite a few more who follow other ideological doctrines minus the religion who do the same.

It is all about looking for the truth, and righteousness.

And without any doubt, there are too many people who forgotten their humanity in favor of materialism, or things of the sort.

It is that which leads another human being to walk right past a crime committed on a subway, and do nothing, or abuse our court system for financial gain.

68 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:16:05pm

re: #65 Dianna

It's all familiarly, conveniently disguised in the old America First robes.

69 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:17:49pm

re: #49 Charles

BTW, when I checked this morning Townhall, Conservative Voice and the White Nationalist site VDARE were the only ones distributing Buchanan's trash. Nice company.

70 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:18:10pm

Anyone who clicks the link to LGF at Buchanan's hate site will now get a surprise.

71 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:18:15pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth

I can think of at least one demi-god...

However, I think Wiki is our friend on this one.

This link show Hermaphroditos as a manifestation of Eros; but I think s/he is actually supposed to be a demi-god, a semi-mortal child of a god.

72 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:18:48pm

re: #70 Charles

Heh.

73 formercorpsman  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:18:55pm

re: #70 Charles

I was just going to ask about that

74 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:19:28pm

"Intellectual Muslims, fed up with the pathological anti-Western hatred of the radicals who defame Islam by their violent acts, are seeking the right way to express and stand for their faith and identity in the modern world"
Uh, and who might those "Intellectual Muslims" be?
And how come "We" defame Islam with our violent acts, but flying jet airplanes into the WTC, The Pentagon and a field in Pennsylvania doens't defame
Christianity or at least Judeo-Christian thought?

75 Jimmah  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:19:42pm

re: #11 Sharmuta

And this is exactly what many of us have been saying to the IDers all along- you let ID into the science classroom and islam will follow.

Deny this at your own peril!

I'm just waiting for the demands to give 'both sides' of the 'Jinn Controversy' a fair hearing in science classes...

76 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:19:44pm

re: #69 Killgore Trout

Add Human Events.

Given all the crankery on the site, I think I shall have to cease going there.

77 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:19:50pm

re: #70 Charles

Anyone who clicks the link to LGF at Buchanan's hate site will now get a surprise.

Ah, the magic of redirect.

78 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:20:08pm

re: #70 Charles

Do tell?

79 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:20:12pm

re: #59 Slumbering Behemoth

What? Whose god? A hermaphrodite god? Lizards, help me out, which mythology/religion has a hermaphrodite god/goddess? I'm sure there must be one.

I'm sure there must be one in Greek/Roman myths.
Let me check.

80 Render  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:20:22pm

re: #49 Charles

Google "Daniel Larison" and go five pages deep.

I see Steve Sailor, I see Taki, I see Antiwar dot com, I see the usual cast of clowns.

AFTER
GLOW,
R

81 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:20:45pm

re: #70 Charles

Headline: IDF Prepares for Return of Abducted Soldiers

How about Lemon Party instead?

82 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:20:53pm

re: #49 Charles

Pat Buchanan's hate rag calls us "buffoons:"

[Link: www.amconmag.com...]

"No War With Iran"... Funny how their talking points are indistinguishable from Cindy Sheehan's.

83 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:21:00pm

re: #79 reine.de.tout

I'm sure there must be one in Greek/Roman myths.
Let me check.


[Link: www.theoi.com...]

84 allah this  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:21:31pm

re: #56 MandyManners

Indeed. Word.


;)

85 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:21:58pm

I almost missed this at Buchanan's Town Hall piece, in the first line:
"Last week, the front pages of the world press blossomed with photos of four Iranian rockets, fired in salvo, heading skyward."
I don't think he got the note.

86 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:22:04pm

re: #57 HelloDare
After watching the Mayan thing on the history channel, I thought date was set. Dec. 21, 2012. That's the date the Mayan calendar ends.
Something about we'll be perfectly aligned to the center of our galaxy or some such thing.

87 nigella  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:22:07pm

Charles, I agree Buchanan is completely wacko in my opinion.It seems his hate for George W. Bush has fried his brain. Regarding Intelligent Design, I value my fellow Lizards here to much to go there.....

88 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:22:22pm

re: #75 Jimmah

I'm just waiting for the demands to give 'both sides' of the 'Jinn Controversy' a fair hearing in science classes...

I'm sure the American creationists will love having their children taught that Jesus was "just a prophet" in science class- it's exactly what they had in mind, I bet.

89 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:22:43pm

re: #85 jaunte No, he got it, he just doesn't believe it.

90 mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:23:16pm

re: #49 Charles

Whats funny about that to me is that waaaay back I used to read his stuff all the time and then Rathergate happened and I found LGF and a few years later I haven't been back at all.

91 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:23:34pm

re: #89 realwest

Maybe he could be invited to vacation in Sderot, and see how harmless those little rockets can be.

92 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:23:34pm

Pat has gone totally around the bend and is in need of some serious meds.

93 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:23:35pm
This “wedge” is the code name for the Intelligent Design Movement, formed in the early 1990s by Christian scientists and intellectuals.

Muslims have indeed slid back into the dark ages.

94 ggt  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:23:41pm

re: #67 formercorpsman

hmmm, I think I'm missing your point.

95 profitsbeard  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:23:53pm

If they'll swallow a pedophile warlord as a "prophet", why not this?

Islam declared itself to be following an Utterly Irrational deity about 400 years into its "faith", so this is just the logical outcome.

96 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:24:02pm

re: #49 Charles

Pat Buchanan's hate rag calls us "buffoons:"

[Link: www.amconmag.com...]

Good. I wouldn't be here if they had cause to say something favorable about LGF.

F*ck 'em!

97 formercorpsman  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:24:47pm

re: #94 ggt

If that is the case, I am open to discussion.

98 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:24:54pm

re: #91 jaunte Nah, even Buchanan isn't that stupi.......hmmm couldn't hurt to invite him!

99 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:25:10pm

re: #50 Dianna

It's fear-mongering. Nothing more.

100 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:25:21pm

re: #98 realwest

Fact-finding!

101 formercorpsman  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:25:36pm

This is rich

[Link: blog.aclu.org...]

102 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:26:43pm

re: #67 formercorpsman

It is that which leads another human being to walk right past a crime committed on a subway, and do nothing

like the AP stringers in the Middle East

or abuse our court system for financial gain

like the Flying Imams and the al-Haramain case.

103 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:26:44pm

re: #101 formercorpsman
What a bunch of maroons.

104 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:26:45pm

re: #99 Slumbering Behemoth

Repent now, while you still have time!

105 gman  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:26:47pm

re: #18 Killgore Trout

That's a very important point. Al-Ghazali is credited with the destruction of the Islamic world in the 11th century through his work The Incoherence of the Philosophers in which he rejected the Greek philosophers with their "reason", "logic" and "imperical evidence" as heretical because they didn't account for the wisdom of Allah as revealed in the Quran. There is a very strong parallel between the Disco Institute and Al- Ghazali and it could result in a similar collapse in our civilization as well.

That wikipedia entry for Ghazali reads like a PR glossy

106 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:26:48pm

re: #70 Charles

Anyone who clicks the link to LGF at Buchanan's hate site will now get a surprise.

I love it!

107 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:26:51pm

re: #49 Charles

Pat Buchanan's hate rag calls us "buffoons:"

[Link: www.amconmag.com...]

Ohhh...... that ought to fry their little brains.

108 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:27:36pm

re: #107 Wendya

Ohhh...... that ought to fry their little brains.

Clicking back to your LGF link, that is.

109 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:28:01pm

re: #100 jaunte Wait, I thought it was gonna be a vacation! We gotta get our stories invitations straight or we're never gonna sucker get him there!

110 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:28:37pm

re: #63 BlueCanuck

Check the Hindu religion. I think they have one or two like that there.

Turns out, it's Greek.

111 ggt  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:29:01pm

re: #97 formercorpsman

Seriously, I don't understand what you said. How does walking past a crime scene equal charlatans and false prophets urging me to give-up my stuff?

Perhaps we are using two different meanings for materialism. I mean "private property". Something of which the socialists and whacko's seem to disapprove.

112 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:29:16pm

re: #110 Slumbering Behemoth

Well, can't be right all the time. :)

113 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:30:03pm

re: #71 Dianna

I can think of at least one demi-god...

However, I think Wiki is our friend on this one.

This link show Hermaphroditos as a manifestation of Eros; but I think s/he is actually supposed to be a demi-god, a semi-mortal child of a god.

Hermophroditos, child of Aphrodite, the goddess of beauty and love, and Hermes

114 formercorpsman  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:30:04pm

Charles, he seems to be a man after your own heart.

Read his first couple of sentences in

[Link: larison.org...]

He needs to be in the running.

115 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:30:29pm

re: #107 Wendya
Mwahahahahaha! OMG! That is great!

116 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:30:48pm

re: #113 reine.de.tout

in egypt cats were demi-gods

117 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:31:12pm

re: #109 realwest

Coughlinite reunion and golf outing?

118 DistantThunder  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:32:05pm

Sometimes a higher power leaves messages on my windshield: Wash me!

119 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:32:30pm

re: #117 jaunte
Yeah, that's the ticket! With free brandy and Cuban Cigars!
Perfect for such a small intellect as his.

120 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:32:42pm

The All Stat Game drags on. Top of the 12th, 2 Out NL

121 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:33:06pm

re: #116 yochanan

in egypt cats were demi-gods

In my house, the cats

think

they're demi-gods

122 DistantThunder  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:33:09pm

That's Buffoonette to you sir,

123 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:33:12pm

re: #19 BlueCanuck

I am sure there are enough female scientists to do any decoding.

/any more room in your shelter?

we still wouldn't underswtand the papers describing their discoveries.....

/ya gotta bring your own booze. %-)

124 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:33:17pm

Time for a nap, be back in a couple. Try not to beat each other up now.

125 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:33:19pm

re: #120 mattm

The All Stat Game drags on. Top of the 12th, 2 Out NL

2 blown calls in the 11th

126 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:33:32pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

Headline: IDF Prepares for Return of Abducted Soldiers

How about Lemon Party instead?

Lemon Party? I'm afraid to ask.

The IDF link was super-clever, I thought.

127 DistantThunder  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:34:14pm

re: #126 Slumbering Behemoth

Lemon Party? I'm afraid to ask.

The IDF link was super-clever, I thought.

Nuts party

128 BlueCanuck  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:34:18pm

re: #123 redc1c4

Understood. For some reason you don't strike me as a Guiness drinker. :)

/my booze is mostly safe then.

129 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:34:35pm

Buffon's Needle:
[Link: www.mste.uiuc.edu...]

130 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:34:35pm

re: #125 Abu Al-Poopypants What's the score?

131 cicero05  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:34:40pm

Muslims + ID. All I can say is, eponymous!

132 Charles  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:34:42pm

I think Lemon Party shows Pat Buchanan, Justin Raimondo, and Sean Hannity sharing a special moment.

what? it doesn't?

133 pingjockey  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:34:57pm

re: #128 BlueCanuck
Guiness and Bass Ale!

134 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:35:03pm

re: #111 ggt

Perhaps we are using two different meanings for materialism. I mean "private property". Something of which the socialists and whacko's seem to disapprove.

In your #38, the last thing I was thinking you meant was socialists. They generally aren't concerned with the state of anyone's soul.

135 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:35:31pm

re: #23 A Kiwi Infidel

Um, again, sorry, but if G-d declares Himself to be the Father, and He is a female are you not adding weight to argument that man is woman and woman is man and each can marry the same or either/or?

Just askin?

that was a typical male mistake in transcription. just ask any wife/girlfriend/so.....

what G*d said and what we heard were two different things.

/and, being the male in the equation, we were wrong. %-)

136 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:35:34pm

re: #121 reine.de.tout
Ditto for my house.

137 DistantThunder  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:36:37pm

are those Abyssinians?

138 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:36:40pm

re: #130 realwest

What's the score?

3-3 in the 12th. Hopefully the commish won't call a tie again.

139 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:36:59pm

re: #137 DistantThunder

are those Abyssinians?

Cornish Rex.

140 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:37:08pm

re: #86 pingjockey

After watching the Mayan thing on the history channel, I thought date was set. Dec. 21, 2012. That's the date the Mayan calendar ends.
Something about we'll be perfectly aligned to the center of our galaxy or some such thing.

From my limited understanding, that is supposed to be an epochal mark, not an apocryphal one.

141 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:37:27pm

re: #137 DistantThunder
Yes, and in all the old familiar places!

142 Neo Con since 9-11[deleted]  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:37:32pm
143 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:37:56pm

re: #32 BlueCanuck

Only if red approves, and you come with supplies.

/the stronger the better.

for some reason, most of the storage resembles a wine cellar.... %-)

/lots of room

144 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:38:02pm

re: #136 Abu Al-Poopypants

Ditto for my house.

those 2 look like they are preparing for a REVOLUTION
You get to claw out his eyes this time.

145 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:38:17pm

re: #141 realwest
Ah rats, h/t Hawkeye Pierce.

146 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:38:33pm

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

Is there any point in me posting links?

147 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:38:45pm

re: #136 Abu Al-Poopypants

Ditto for my house.

What kind of cats are those?

I can't get all 4 of mine together at one time. They will each pose with the dog just fine; but not with each other.

148 DistantThunder  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:38:52pm

re: #139 Abu Al-Poopypants

Cornish Rex.

We had noisy Siamese, now we have skittish half-feral.

149 MandyManners[deleted]  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:39:02pm
150 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:39:19pm

re: #140 Slumbering Behemoth

From my limited understanding, that is supposed to be an epochal mark, not an apocryphal one.

And it'll probably be the day the last state electors cast their votes for President.

(Did you mean "apocalyptic"?)

151 DistantThunder  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:39:42pm

re: #149 MandyManners

DON'T CLICK ON THAT.

Thanks for the warning.

152 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:40:26pm

re: #146 Dianna

Is there any point in me posting links?

I don't understand what you are saying?

153 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:40:35pm

re: #71 Dianna

I can think of at least one demi-god...

However, I think Wiki is our friend on this one.

This link show Hermaphroditos as a manifestation of Eros; but I think s/he is actually supposed to be a demi-god, a semi-mortal child of a god.

While I was reaching for my book . . . you found it right quick! (Note to self: remember wiki).

154 ggt  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:40:39pm

re: #134 victor_yugo

Bingo, but they'll use religion or whatever is necessary to convince you of their "rightness"

I really don't see much difference between socialist, fascist or communist --to me they are all totalitarian. I think the current crop of religiouswhacko's are the same. There are useful idiots in their camp that are truly concerned with the souls of others, but their leaders are only concerned with power over others. IMHO.

"denouncing materialism" is just another gimmick they use.

155 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:41:12pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

Repent now, while you still have time!

What, and miss all the action?

/this is the longest "end time" I have ever known..

156 Neo Con since 9-11  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:41:26pm

re: #149 MandyManners

DON'T CLICK ON THAT.

I did say not safe for work. although probably not safe for home, internet cafes, or Taiwanese brothel either.

157 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:41:27pm

re: #152 Walter L. Newton

I don't understand what you are saying?

dianna had already posted that link, before you did, and before I could find the answer in my book.

158 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:42:10pm

re: #157 reine.de.tout

dianna had already posted that link, before you did, and before I could find the answer in my book.

Excuuuuuussseeee me. Sorry. Geeesssh.

159 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:42:11pm

Sorry, I assumed that it was common knowledge to not google Lemon Party or Goatse, etc.
/My bad

160 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:42:14pm

re: #113 reine.de.tout

Yes. I know. I posted the link.

But Eros and Hermaphrodites are not precisely the same persona.

161 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:42:20pm

re: #104 Sharmuta

Repent now, while you still have time!

I live in a state of repentance and guilt.

162 HelloDare  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:42:28pm

re: #71 Dianna

I can think of at least one demi-god...

However, I think Wiki is our friend on this one.

This link show Hermaphroditos as a manifestation of Eros; but I think s/he is actually supposed to be a demi-god, a semi-mortal child of a god.

That looks like the rabbit that had the hots for Jimmy Carter.

163 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:42:53pm

re: #132 Charles

Ha!

164 wolfie  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:43:05pm

re: #16 redc1c4

(I just thought that was pretty funny.)

165 formercorpsman  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:43:08pm

re: #111 ggt

I know at times I post stuff that appears a far stretch, guilty.

The point I was aiming for in the larger sense, is that society has become very materialistic.

It has placed things above what used to be a moral code, and in turn leads to the erosion of life day after day.

I guess my correlation with the crime, is people at large had a direction for right and wrong. They got involved. Anymore, people shy away from this, they fear not only for their own safety, but for their own material loss in the process.

Take breast implants. Hey I'm a fan in certain situations, but truly, I think what the world has started to tell people, is that in order to be successful, relevant, etc, you need this for material gain. Someone who has the funds to go through 4 or 5 different surgeries only because they are tired of the size needs a lesson in reality.

Try working in children's hospital at some point. See what true need really is. Take that money, and send a care package to the 20 year old kid in Anbar who would think a real luxury at this time would be a box of baby wipes, and perhaps an Ipod.

Trust me, I am not about the Robin hood complex, nor the Oral Roberts snake oil sales man approach to salvation.

But there is a prevalence of materialism that has slowly eaten away some our humanity as a society over time.

166 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:43:10pm

re: #147 reine.de.tout

What kind of cats are those?

I can't get all 4 of mine together at one time. They will each pose with the dog just fine; but not with each other.

These are from 2 different litters of Cornish Rex born 11 days apart in the same house, and they're inseparable since we got 'em. Right now they're washing each other on the couch.

167 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:43:25pm
Intellectual Christians have already found that way. They encountered materialism before we did, because it grew right in the heart of Christendom. They have been standing against it for several decades. And recently they have initiated a bold movement—a “wedge” as they call it—to split the foundations of materialism.

The IDers and the muslim creationists are after the same thing- to replace the material, observable world of reason with a theistic one. Those of us opposed to ID have been mocked for calling this agenda theocratic, but that is exactly what it is. If you replace reason based on the observable with the IDers "theistic realism" then everything becomes spiritual, and theocracy can only be a step behind.

168 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:43:28pm

re: #116 yochanan

in egypt cats were demi-gods

And they've never forgotten it!

169 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:43:33pm

re: #156 Neo Con since 9-11

If you get banned for that, I'll do a happy dance.

Seriously.

170 Racer X  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:44:48pm

re: #169 victor_yugo

If you get banned for that, I'll do a happy dance.

Seriously.

pr0n?

171 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:44:50pm

Bottom of the 12th, tied 3/3 2 out....

172 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:45:47pm

re: #159 Killgore Trout

Sorry, I assumed that it was common knowledge to not google Lemon Party or Goatse, etc.
/My bad

I knew about Goatse but I'd never heard of the other. At least I'm not so overly curious that I feel the need to see it for myself after having read the description.

173 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:45:55pm

re: #160 Dianna

Yes. I know. I posted the link.

But Eros and Hermaphrodites are not precisely the same persona.

No, they're not. Eros was directly produced "chaos" I think, which also produced Ge (Earth), Tartarus (a dim place in the ground), erebus (the gloom of tatarus) and dark night. Plus eros (love)

174 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:46:05pm

Ant now we go to the 13th Inning.....

175 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:46:46pm

I'm sorry I quoted that post, Charles.

176 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:47:03pm

when will the comish call a tie?

177 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:47:03pm

I notice that the Disco Dancin' ID Trolls do not seem overly eager to engage concerning this particular article...;~)

178 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:47:50pm

re: #177 Salamantis

I notice that the Disco Dancin' ID Trolls do not seem overly eager to engage concerning this particular article...;~)

9 years ago, they would have been all over it.

179 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:47:58pm

re: #177 Salamantis

I notice that the Disco Dancin' ID Trolls do not seem overly eager to engage concerning this particular article...;~)

I hope they read it, though.

180 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:48:02pm

re: #177 Salamantis

Seems awfully quiet...

181 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:48:05pm

re: #158 Walter L. Newton

Well, it would be nice if someone noticed, every now and then, that I actually do know a teeny-tiny bit about Greco-Roman mythology. It's not my fault; my mom loved the stuff, and I sort of picked it up as I went along.

182 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:48:29pm

re: #154 ggt

"denouncing materialism" is just another gimmick they use.

If you have already concluded thus, without observing the benefit of renouncing materialism (independent of the messenger)...

and I'm not talking about being forced into it, I'm talking about making that choice freely...

then why should I take you any more seriously than the very people Charles rails against on here?

183 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:48:43pm

re: #176 yochanan

when will the comish call a tie?

His worst nightmare.

184 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:49:40pm

I would have tried a suicide squeeze when there was 1 out and a man on 3rd. That would show my influence from playing high school Catholic League baseball. We used the squeeze play all the time. Its a league where 3 balls is a walk and 2 strikes is a strikeout. Small ball rules.

185 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:50:02pm

re: #172 Wendya

I knew about Goatse but I'd never heard of the other. At least I'm not so overly curious that I feel the need to see it for myself after having read the description.

Don't google tubgirl, then...

186 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:50:13pm

re: #181 Dianna

Well, it would be nice if someone noticed, every now and then, that I actually do know a teeny-tiny bit about Greco-Roman mythology. It's not my fault; my mom loved the stuff, and I sort of picked it up as I went along.

I noticed.

187 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:50:16pm

re: #150 victor_yugo

And it'll probably be the day the last state electors cast their votes for President.

(Did you mean "apocalyptic"?)

Yes, I did. My bad.

188 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:50:21pm

re: #173 reine.de.tout

Many of the Greek gods had highly fractured personae.

189 Neo Con since 9-11  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:50:23pm

My apologies, Charles. Poor judgment on my part. I didn't even know what that site was till someone else brought it up.

190 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:51:09pm

re: #181 Dianna

Well, it would be nice if someone noticed, every now and then, that I actually do know a teeny-tiny bit about Greco-Roman mythology. It's not my fault; my mom loved the stuff, and I sort of picked it up as I went along.

Then maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong:

Isn't "demi-god" actually "god of the people" (as opposed to "god of the cosmos"), and not "half-god"?

Like "democracy" is "strength of the people".

191 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:51:39pm

re: #177 Salamantis

Give 'em time. It's not midnight on the west coast yet, so they haven't finished eating after rising at sunset.

Do any of you sleep?

192 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:51:45pm

re: #180 jaunte

All these martyr points waiting to be claimed just going to waste. Pity.

193 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:52:01pm

re: #183 freedombilly

worst nightmare would be an injured player

194 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:52:03pm

re: #146 Dianna

Is there any point in me posting links?

Yes, there is. I just posted mine before I saw yours. Thanks BTW, I gave you an up-ding.

195 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:52:29pm

re: #192 Sharmuta

5

________________

196 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:52:44pm

re: #181 Dianna

Well, it would be nice if someone noticed, every now and then, that I actually do know a teeny-tiny bit about Greco-Roman mythology. It's not my fault; my mom loved the stuff, and I sort of picked it up as I went along.

Dianna - It wasn't a matter of not "noticing," it was a simple matter of how fast these threads can move, combined with the many talented and educated people here.

While you were entering your post, I was looking up a reference and then you post and I post and, magic, we both have a post, your first, mine next.

You comment to me was sort of a "dig" on me, and I don't see why it was necessary. I wasn't trying to "one up" you or anything like that.

Walter in Golden, Co. (scratching my head)

197 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:52:45pm

re: #193 yochanan

worst nightmare would be an injured player

Yep.

198 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:53:06pm

re: #186 reine.de.tout

Thanks!

199 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:53:18pm

re: #121 reine.de.tout

they're demi-gods

my house is *run* for the convenience of the cats: they are gods.

/just ask them %-)

200 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:53:41pm

re: #192 Sharmuta

That was a high five, but it wound up off-center.

201 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:53:46pm

re: #197 mattm

interesting game so far

202 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:54:25pm

re: #188 Dianna

Many of the Greek gods had highly fractured personae.

yes. And intermingled and interbred something fierce.

Eros shows up in the creation myths - in other cultures was known as "cupid".

Aphrodite was a daughter of Zeus and Hera, and Hermaphroditus was a child of Aphrodite.

203 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:54:25pm

re: #200 jaunte

That was a high five, but it wound up off-center.

LOL! Okay- I thought maybe it was a [your name here] for 5 martyr points.

204 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:54:36pm

re: #193 yochanan

You're right. But oh the PR if he has to call a tie. Kazmir will be on a strict pitch count since he threw over 100 pitches on Sunday. And he is the only AL pitcher who hasn't pitched yet.

205 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:54:42pm

re: #128 BlueCanuck

Understood. For some reason you don't strike me as a Guiness drinker. :)

/my booze is mostly safe then.

does it have ETOH?

/not safe. %-)

206 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:54:49pm

re: #190 victor_yugo

Two different words, in different declensions. My Greek's really non-existent, but demo- demos is very much a noun, and demi is an adjective.

207 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:55:06pm

the greek gods were lively to say the least

208 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:55:53pm

re: #188 Dianna

Many of the Greek gods had highly fractured personae.

"per/sona" = "through/sound"

a theatrical mask with a bullhorn in the mouth, to project the actor's voice

which gave rise to the Modalist heresy

209 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:56:00pm

re: #193 yochanan

Or another tie game.

I say they should allow free substitution in the All Star Game now that the stakes are home field advantage for the World Series. In extra innings, let the starters back in.

210 ggt  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:56:20pm

re: #165 formercorpsman

I agree, I just think that the pundits that propose we denouce materialism really just want our stuff.

I guess, I am knee-jerk suspicious of anyone who has a mercedes (meaning the Osama, algore, flying imans etc) tell me what I can and cannot purchase with money I've earned. They all seem to have a not-for-profit organization that can really use my money.

I'd rather give a grocery bag of food to the local food pantry or drive a carless co-worker home after work and know that my money and efforts had a positive result.

211 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:56:27pm

re: #190 victor_yugo

Erp! my apologies, I hit post before I should have!

"cracy" is not 'strength', exactly. Like a lot of words in classical Greek, it translates as a number of different words.

212 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:57:06pm

re: #196 Walter L. Newton

No, it wasn't a dig at you - it was a joke.

213 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:57:28pm

re: #207 yochanan

the greek gods were lively to say the least

And the curses they came up with really kick Hellenic ass.

Cassandra
Prometheus
Sisyphus

214 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:58:04pm

re: #156 Neo Con since 9-11

I did say not safe for work. although probably not safe for home, internet cafes, or Taiwanese brothel either.

"The following video is not work, school, home, or penitentiary safe. In fact, if you were to be in the middle of a gay S&M rave/orgy in the discarded organs bin at your local slaughterhouse and this came on the screens, you'd probably think it was a bit over the top."

Gridlore, on his LiveJournal

215 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:58:32pm

Not a single downward ding on Charles' initial post.

216 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:58:48pm

re: #192 Sharmuta

All these martyr points waiting to be claimed just going to waste. Pity.

If no one claims them, I say we take 'em back to the corner store and trade them in for some of that primordial booze.

217 ggt  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:58:52pm

re: #167 Sharmuta

"The IDers and the muslim creationists are after the same thing- to replace the material, observable world of reason with a theistic one"

THis is exactly what I'm not buying or swallowing. I don't believe they give one iota about faith or souls. They want the world in their power, not G-ds.

Yes, there are individuals who are true believers. I don't believe the leaders are.

218 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:59:03pm

re: #210 ggt Hey ggt!
Was that Osama a slip of the keyboard and did you mean Obama?
Cause, ya know, I ain't giving to any Osama linked charities!

219 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:59:25pm

re: #202 reine.de.tout

Aphrodite arose from the blood of the father of the gods, who becomes Chronos after his murder by his children, doesn't he?

220 FamHistoryGuy  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 9:59:43pm

re: #27 Salamantis

So, the pillars of islam:loot, pillage, plunder and rape are not materialism?

221 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:00:33pm

re: #208 victor_yugo

Well, not precisely? I'd always felt that the Modalist heresy used that as an example?

222 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:01:04pm

re: #206 Dianna

Two different words, in different declensions. My Greek's really non-existent, but demo- demos is very much a noun, and demi is an adjective.

My book says the demi-gods were "race" created by Zeus, "a godlike race of heroic men who preceded our own race" (meaning humans). That's from Ovid's accounts.

223 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:01:10pm

re: #217 ggt

I don't believe they give one iota about faith or souls. They want the world in their power, not G-ds.

And I agree with you here. It's that their means of acquiring power are to abuse their positions as so-called holy men.

224 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:01:33pm

re: #209 Mich-again

Watching the game in a hotel by DTW, not far from your "embedded" position after conducting some business in lovely Bay View today.

Someone needs to end this. I've got a flight in the morning.

225 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:01:54pm

re: #215 MandyManners
Yes, but didja notice Charles gave himself a "+"!
We aren't allowed to do that.
Must be a perk of owning your own blog!

226 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:02:02pm

re: #213 victor_yugo

Tauntalus!

227 ggt  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:02:05pm

re: #182 victor_yugo

I don't want your stuff. You can keep it, you earned it. Or give it away --your choice, not mine.

228 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:02:28pm

re: #215 MandyManners

Not a single downward ding on Charles' initial post.

I noticed that Charles has a special power denied the rest of us. The power to ding up his own post. :-)

229 wolfie  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:02:53pm

re: #190 victor_yugo

Then maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong:

Isn't "demi-god" actually "god of the people" (as opposed to "god of the cosmos"), and not "half-god"?

Like "democracy" is "strength of the people".


Demi- is the Greek prefix meaning PARTIAL, LESSER,HALF

230 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:03:17pm

a lively greek god
Priapus

231 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:03:18pm

re: #225 realwest

Heh. 32 seconds before my post. GMTA.

232 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:03:25pm

re: #221 Dianna

Well, not precisely? I'd always felt that the Modalist heresy used that as an example?

Speculation: without the use of that image (one actor, many masks), I doubt Modalism could have gotten the societal hold that it did.

233 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:03:35pm

re: #222 reine.de.tout

Oh, Ovid - he's really marvellous, but he's a little too busy with the poetry.

I love Ovid - my Latin improved sharply when I had to translate him.

234 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:03:50pm

re: #228 Lizard by the Bay Hey there - please see my #225!
GMTA!

235 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:04:12pm

re: #219 Dianna

Aphrodite arose from the blood of the father of the gods, who becomes Chronos after his murder by his children, doesn't he?

I show lineage:
Cronus & Rhea - produced 6, Hestia, Hades, Poseidon, Demeter, Hera & Zeus.

Zeus had several mates; Aphrodite was born of Zeus and Dione (who I know nothing about).

Hermes was Zeus' son by Maia.

Zeus and Hera had 3 children; Hebe, Hephaestus and Ares (Mars)

236 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:04:14pm

re: #234 realwest

And we did it again...

237 ggt  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:04:59pm

re: #218 realwest

Freudian keyboard slip? I don't know --anymore I wonder that they are not interchangeable.

How you doin'?

I'm nursing a 2 day migraine and getting ready to log-off.

Weet dreams if I don't see you again.

238 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:05:20pm

re: #224 freedombilly

You must be just a few miles from here. Ha.

239 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:05:21pm

re: #191 Dianna

Give 'em time. It's not midnight on the west coast yet, so they haven't finished eating after rising at sunset.

Do any of you sleep?

is that what happens when you've had enough to drink?

240 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:05:27pm

re: #231 Lizard by the Bay ROTFLMAO! Ouch! This damned toothache is just killing me - I've taken enough meds to sink a good sized boat and still hurt to much to get to sleep.
Mayber the Commish will allow ME to pitch!

241 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:05:27pm

@Dianna:
@Wolfie:

I'm thinking of the really, really old daimonios which waits for someone to pray, and then carries the prayer up to heaven.

Sorry for the confusion. The fault was mine.

242 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:05:45pm

To the 14th inning.....

243 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:06:11pm

re: #230 yochanan

Something of a roadside favorite, he.

244 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:06:12pm

re: #239 redc1c4

is that what happens when you've had enough to drink?

Silly lizard. Like there's any such thing as "enough to drink".

245 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:06:14pm

re: #237 ggt Sorry to hear about your migraine - hope you feel better when you wake up in the morning!

246 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:07:55pm

Hmm... I guess the Discovery Institute's Martyr Brigade is comparing notes and formulating a new play book for this one. It's oddly quiet.

247 FamHistoryGuy  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:08:06pm

re: #81 Killgore Trout

rif tags?

248 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:08:11pm

re: #240 realwest

Bummer about the toothache. I find that vicodin mixed with just the right amount of vodka is a guaranteed good night's sleep.

249 Canadastani  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:08:52pm

OT: Archbishop of Canterbury steps in it again

They successfully lost me - a lifelong Episcopalian - with their blend of pop culture and dhimmitude.
The Archbishop thinks we should follow his lead and humble ourselves before our Muslim superiors and thinks Muslim women in the UK should be subject to the "choice" of Shariah law. Trying to picture the women who say "no thanks, I'd rather litigate this in the infidel courts". I just see bruises.
The head of the Episcopal Church USA thinks the primary mission of the church is to act on Global Warming.
It's a mess, not a church.

250 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:09:05pm

re: #235 reine.de.tout

Oh, boy. I need to look it up, but I'm pretty sure Aphrodite arose from Cronos' blood.

Pretty sure does not mean absolutely certain.

I have here this quote:

According to Hesiod, she was born when Uranus (the father of the gods) was castrated by his son Cronus. Cronus threw the severed genitals into the ocean which began to churn and foam about them. From the aphros ("sea foam") arose Aphrodite, and the sea carried her to either Cyprus or Cythera. Hence she is often referred to as Kypris and Cytherea. Homer calls her a daughter of Zeus and Dione.

From this site.

251 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:09:25pm

re: #243 Dianna

Something of a roadside favorite, he.

and named after the condition some get when they have taken vitimin 'V'

after 4 hours call your doc

252 Clemente  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:09:37pm

re: #129 jaunte

Buffon's Needle:
[Link: www.mste.uiuc.edu...]

That probability curve looks a lot like a cycloid, juante, but my math skills fall a bit country mile short of solving the equation. Could you (or maybe another lizard) tell me if they're different forms of the same expression?

253 Sharmuta  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:09:39pm

re: #246 Slumbering Behemoth

Indeed. How to combat the ummah ♥s the wedge?

254 jaunte  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:09:42pm

re: #246 Slumbering Behemoth

"This is not the Discovery Institute we knew."

255 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:09:48pm

re: #248 Lizard by the Bay

You don't mess around!

256 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:10:01pm

re: #219 Dianna

re: #235 reine.de.tout

I show lineage:
Cronus & Rhea - produced 6, Hestia, Hades, Poseidon, Demeter, Hera & Zeus.

Zeus had several mates; Aphrodite was born of Zeus and Dione (who I know nothing about).

Hermes was Zeus' son by Maia.

Zeus and Hera had 3 children; Hebe, Hephaestus and Ares (Mars)

And before that: Cronus was a Titan (the offspring of Uranus and Ge) - there were 12. Rhea was also one. Zeus was son of Cronus & Rhea.

Cronus swallowed his children because he was destined to be overcome by one of them. Rhea had Zeus in secret so he wouldn't be swallowed. Zeus grew up; Cronus brought forth all his swallowed children, and together with brother Zeus, they fought Cronus.

257 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:10:14pm

re: #232 victor_yugo

I can't speak to that - I don't know enough about that heresy.

258 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:10:30pm

re: #244 Lizard by the Bay

Silly lizard. Like there's any such thing as "enough to drink".

i musta left out the "/"..... %-)

"CHANGE!"

/off to the fridge

259 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:11:00pm

re: #248 Lizard by the Bay Well I'm a non-drinking alcoholic, so the Vodka's out and I'm already on Morphine to counter my cancer meds - somehow I don't think that vicodan is gonna cut it!
But thanks for the idea!

260 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:11:26pm

re: #127 DistantThunder

Nuts party

I think I get your meaning. I shall remain blissfully ignorant on this one.

/Getting "Rick Rolled" with a goatse link taught me a valuable lesson

261 eclectic infidel  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:11:42pm

re: #25 Charles

Notice that they know exactly what the Wedge Strategy is all about, and they highly approve of it.

Yes. Common ground for both Jihadist and Christian Creationist.

262 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:11:43pm

at this point i just wish the game would end

263 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:11:48pm

re: #239 redc1c4

I wouldn't know.

Sleep is elusive for me, but drinking doesn't help.

264 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:12:15pm

if the game lasts longer than 4 hours call your doc

265 FamHistoryGuy  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:12:15pm

re: #95 profitsbeard

muslims are self professed slaves of allah, the immans are the overseers and allah is the slave owner.

266 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:12:26pm

re: #250 Dianna

This is probably correct. I didn't see what you posted in this link.

The problem I always had with understanding these gods and getting them straight is the timeline, and the fact they intermingled and interbred so dadgum much.

267 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:12:27pm

re: #248 Lizard by the Bay

Bummer about the toothache. I find that vicodin mixed with just the right amount of vodka is a guaranteed good night's sleep.

get it wrong and you'll *sleep* a whole lot longer than you'd planned on.

still hard as hell on your liver even if you don't screw up: acetaminophen & ETOH are *really* hard on the old organ.

268 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:12:35pm

re: #248 Lizard by the Bay

Bummer about the toothache. I find that vicodin mixed with just the right amount of vodka is a guaranteed good night's sleep.

Atarax is also a booster. (besides also being an anti-anxiety drug)

269 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:13:08pm

re: #264 yochanan

Laughing really hard considering all of the Viagra commercials during this broadcast!

270 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:13:51pm

re: #233 Dianna

Oh, Ovid - he's really marvellous, but he's a little too busy with the poetry.

I love Ovid - my Latin improved sharply when I had to translate him.

Well - I read a translation, no Latin for me.

271 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:14:10pm

We buried my Father in Law this morning. He lost a long bout with cancer. We were there with him in the hospital room when he finally gave up fighting and asked for the morphine drip to just end it all. The guy never had much use for any organized religion, but he lived a good life and was always a lot of fun to hang out with.

272 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:14:34pm

re: #256 reine.de.tout

That, I know.

I would love to continue this, but it's after 10 my time, and I have to be up at 5. I'm going to catch up to this post, and then head for bed.

273 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:15:28pm

re: #263 Dianna

I wouldn't know.

Sleep is elusive for me, but drinking doesn't help.

then you're doing it wrong..... %-)

/have you checked with an expert in the field?
(insomnia, not drinking. )

274 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:15:41pm

re: #271 Mich-again

I am sorry for your loss. No matter how old he was cancer took him too soon.

275 realwest  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:15:46pm

Well all y'all I'm going to try to get some sleep - VERY early morning appointment with the dentist, all just so he can send me to an endodontist who won't be able to see me for a few days.
May just get the damn tooth pulled out.
Anyway, hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you down the road.

Goodnight, all.

276 reine.de.tout  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:15:53pm

re: #272 Dianna

good night, I'm doing the same.

277 esch  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:15:53pm

re: #271 Mich-again

My condolences.

278 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:16:08pm

re: #271 Mich-again

{Mich-again}

279 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:16:43pm

re: #271 Mich-again

How ya holding up, Mich?

280 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:16:48pm

re: #271 Mich-again

We buried my Father in Law this morning. He lost a long bout with cancer. We were there with him in the hospital room when he finally gave up fighting and asked for the morphine drip to just end it all. The guy never had much use for any organized religion, but he lived a good life and was always a lot of fun to hang out with.

that blows..... my condolences to you & your family.

281 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:16:49pm

OT:

On the evening of June 30th, I began to suffer pains in my lower right abdomen. They increased in severity, but I decided to tough them out. Then they got so bad that toughing them out was completely out of the question. They felt like a white-hot python was having grand mal seizures in my gut.

I called a cab (no WAY I could drive), and stumbled screaming into the ER. (What's the pain like on a scale of 1 to 10? AAAAAHHHH! Gotcha. Ten.) They triaged me right on back, and told me that my appendix had ruptured, and that I needed immediate surgery. I swung my trembling, pen-clenching hand at the release forms, and they put me under.

The doc had to redirect his surgery mid-stride. What had happened was much, MUCH worse than an appendix rupture. I was suffering from extreme diverticulitis. A pocket had developed in my lower colon that had filled with colonic material. My colon had become inflamed and swollen, sealing off the pocket from the rest of the tube. The pocket had gotten infected, festered, and the pressure had blown a hole in my outer colonic wall and soaked my lower GI tract with septic pus. And it had multiplied there.

The surgeon drew three cups of sepsis out of my lower GI tract, and installed a suction drain, that pulled out more for days. And they placed me on a rotating IV regimen of three of the most heavy-duty antibiotics they had.

When I woke up after the surgery, I was on a morphine drip; I stayed on it for 4 days, and in the hospital for 12. As soon as I awakened, they had me fill out a living will, because they were uncertain whether I was gonna make it. After I did, the doc told me that I had dodged a major bullet.

One that slammed into me all of a sudden, from nowhere.

Why am I telling all of y'all this disgusting story? Because, when I first got home, I was as weak as a cat, and still having to take 2/5 of a gram of demerol a day. My lifeline was being able to converse in the Lizard Lounge with the many good friends that I have made over the last several months. Their encouragement, care and concern kept me going through a slow, painful, and most difficult convalescence, which, to tell the truth, is not entirely over yet. Others have had similar experiences; SigDawg, for one, who remained in touch with us from the time she was shipped back from Iraq to Walter Reed, through her surgery for pancreatic cancer, till now. I will understand if Charles feels compelled to take down the Lounge, but I will deeply mourn its loss, and the loss of the chance to get together with my good friends there and chat.

282 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:17:17pm

re: #219 Dianna

Aphrodite arose from the blood of the father of the gods, who becomes Chronos after his murder by his children, doesn't he?

If I'm not mistaken, the Egyptians had some myths that were just about as convoluted as this, and in the same sorts of ways. Study the stories of Osirus and and his enemies, f'rex.

283 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:18:08pm

PIMF!

Dang, where did that extra "and" come from?!?!?

284 MandyManners  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:18:37pm

re: #249 Canadastani

OT: Archbishop of Canterbury steps in it again

They successfully lost me - a lifelong Episcopalian - with their blend of pop culture and dhimmitude.
The Archbishop thinks we should follow his lead and humble ourselves before our Muslim superiors and thinks Muslim women in the UK should be subject to the "choice" of Shariah law. Trying to picture the women who say "no thanks, I'd rather litigate this in the infidel courts". I just see bruises.
The head of the Episcopal Church USA thinks the primary mission of the church is to act on Global Warming.
It's a mess, not a church.

Have you sent that to Charles?

285 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:19:17pm

re: #279 Slumbering Behemoth

How ya holding up, Mich?

Crap! And my condolences as well.

/sometimes I am unintentionally insensitive.

286 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:19:36pm

To the 15th Inning..... This is the game that doesn't end, it just goes on and on my friends.....

287 yochanan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:19:53pm

sal i like the lounge too some times it is needed esp when i am a shut in.

288 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:20:20pm

re: #271 Mich-again

My condolences.

289 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:20:26pm

re: #220 FamHistoryGuy

So, the pillars of islam:loot, pillage, plunder and rape are not materialism?

They're all for Allah's purpose; to coerce infidel souls into his fold...by making them scared shitless to stay outside it. Dar el Islam, Dar el Harb (War).

290 eclectic infidel  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:20:27pm

re: #116 yochanan

in egypt cats were demi-gods

Felines are at least that.

291 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:20:40pm

re: #274 freedombilly

Thanks. 64 is too young these days it seems. The weirdest part was seeing him wake up and figuring out he was still alive a few times. Anyone who has been there might know that look.

292 phoenixgirl  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:20:54pm

re: #281 Salamantis

{sala}

293 esch  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:21:07pm

re: #281 Salamantis

Been there, done that.

Sorry you had to experience it. Just be glad it likely won't come back.

294 phoenixgirl  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:21:10pm

re: #287 yochanan

{yoch}

295 Dianna  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:21:26pm

re: #273 redc1c4

A couple; some things help. I don't like medication, so I do a lot of meditation instead.

It still means that I have to get to bed very soon, or it will be well after midnight when I finally go to sleep.

296 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:21:58pm

Each league has 1 pitcher left, so this might be the last inning no matter the score.

297 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:22:38pm

re: #249 Canadastani

ECUSA lost me in the late 80's.

298 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:22:42pm

re: #255 freedombilly

You don't mess around!

I'm a fan of what works.

re: #267 redc1c4

get it wrong and you'll *sleep* a whole lot longer than you'd planned on.

I'm acutely aware of that. As I recall, that's how the Heaven's Gate cult did themselves in.

re: #259 realwest

Well I'm a non-drinking alcoholic, so the Vodka's out and I'm already on Morphine to counter my cancer meds - somehow I don't think that vicodan is gonna cut it!

Sorry, you are beyond my skills as a healer. So I'll just hope that you feel better and can get some sleep.

G'nite realwest.

299 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:23:01pm

re: #281 Salamantis

Great post.

300 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:23:28pm

re: #286 mattm

LMAOTLHNTWM

301 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:25:29pm

re: #281 Salamantis

ouch....... you did indeed dodge a HUGE bullet.....

/more like a burst of them.

good luck with the ongoing recovery.

302 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:26:14pm

re: #279 Slumbering Behemoth

Made me wonder, whats worse, a long slow death or getting run over by a bus. Still not sure about that..

303 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:26:33pm

Bottom of the 15th Inning...

304 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:27:50pm

re: #300 victor_yugo

LMAOTLHNTWM

Laughing My Ass Off Then....?

305 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:27:52pm

re: #298 Lizard by the Bay

Sorry, you are beyond my skills as a healer. So I'll just hope that you feel better and can get some sleep.

G'nite realwest.

did you note my note regarding the *bad* synergistic efects of acetaminophen and alcohol on the liver? they both process through the same pathways, so by mixing them, you increase the chance of damage, short & long term both.

/FYI

306 melinwy  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:28:03pm

re: #271 Mich-again

I am sorry for your loss....a difficult situation
even when one "knows" the end is near.

307 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:28:14pm

re: #302 Mich-again

Made me wonder, whats worse, a long slow death or getting run over by a bus. Still not sure about that..

is Obama driving? %-)

308 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:28:35pm

re: #291 Mich-again

My father is 67 and beat cancer about five years ago. I try to stop and be thankful for every single additional day we get together.

And my mother-in-law is courageously fighting it today.

309 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:29:23pm

re: #307 redc1c4

is Obama driving? %-)

Ha. Even worse. Getting thrown under.

310 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:30:15pm

re: #302 Mich-again

Made me wonder, whats worse, a long slow death or getting run over by a bus. Still not sure about that..

We pray for a passing that is "peaceful, without shame and suffering".

311 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:30:43pm

re: #304 NomadOfNorad

Laughing My Ass Off Then....?

Trying Like Hell Not To Wet Myself

312 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:31:22pm

re: #311 victor_yugo

Ah. Okay, that makes sense. :D

313 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:32:23pm

re: #302 Mich-again

Made me wonder, whats worse, a long slow death or getting run over by a bus. Still not sure about that..

Hmmm... I'd rather the bus, but I don't get to pick. Well, I could, but that's not a road I would take.

314 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:33:41pm

re: #310 victor_yugo

We pray for a passing that is "peaceful, without shame and suffering".

I agree with that. And I wouldn't want it to set off any family feuds either.

315 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:33:49pm

re: #313 Slumbering Behemoth

"I plan to live forever... or die trying." --tagline

:D :D :D :D

316 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:34:54pm

re: #305 redc1c4

did you note my note regarding the *bad* synergistic efects of acetaminophen and alcohol on the liver? they both process through the same pathways, so by mixing them, you increase the chance of damage, short & long term both.

/FYI

Good call. I'll be switching to Lortab ASA immediately.

317 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:35:23pm

re: #311 victor_yugo

Trying Like Hell Not To Wet Myself

so, it's an old person thing?

/white smoke!

318 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:36:08pm

Mickey Mantle wisdom..

If I knew I was going to live this long, I'd have taken better care of myself.

and this one too...

He who has the fastest golf cart never has a bad lie.
319 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:36:46pm

re: #317 redc1c4

Or maybe a very very young person thing...?

320 BigJohn  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:36:58pm

re: #267 redc1c4

get it wrong and you'll *sleep* a whole lot longer than you'd planned on.

still hard as hell on your liver even if you don't screw up: acetaminophen & ETOH are *really* hard on the old organ.

I suggest Ibuprofen and Whiskey (Irish, Scotch, Bourbon). It makes my immediate gout pain "Its Bitch".

321 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:37:13pm

re: #313 Slumbering Behemoth

I think I'd rather know so that I could get my affairs in order, say goodbye, destroy the porn collection... you know, important stuff!

322 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:37:21pm

re: #281 Salamantis

Yikes. I'm gonna remember that. I had food poisoning once that felt like that, but I decided to ride it out (five days). I was lucky, it was food poising (my buddy ate the same thing, same results), but it could have just as easily been something worse.

Your tale is an object lesson on why I should not go the "ride it out tough guy" route. Thanks for sharing that.

323 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:37:38pm

re: #316 Lizard by the Bay

Good call. I'll be switching to Lortab ASA immediately.

then you'll be trading a bleeding ulcer/perforated stomach for liver failure:
at least it's faster. %-)

/if you insist, try Norco, or the ilk: much less APAP per tab.....

324 Yankee Division Son  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:37:42pm

AL wins in the 15th

325 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:37:47pm

It's over! AL wins AGAIN.

326 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:37:52pm

Big slowww white guy tags up and the AL wins! Ha.

327 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:37:53pm

AL wins, 15 innings 4-3

328 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:38:09pm

I was hoping for a grand slam, but I'll take a sac fly.

329 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:38:31pm

4 hours and 50 minutes total game time

330 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:38:54pm

re: #324 Yankee Division Son

'Bout frickin' time!

331 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:38:59pm

re: #320 BigJohn

I suggest Ibuprofen and Whiskey (Irish, Scotch, Bourbon). It makes my immediate gout pain "Its Bitch".

until your gut goes instead.....

/not that i haven't done similar: it's just not a good idea. %-)

332 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:39:45pm

re: #324 Yankee Division Son

AL wins in the 15th


what game was this?

333 Lizard by the Bay  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:40:03pm

re: #323 redc1c4

/if you insist, try Norco, or the ilk: much less APAP per tab.....

Would that be better than a hydrocodone/ibuprofen mix?

334 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:40:06pm

I guess the Red Sox will have to win it on the road again this year when they sweep the Series for the third time in five years.

335 Yankee Division Son  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:40:24pm

re: #330 victor_yugo

'Bout frickin' time!

LOL.. .

336 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:40:42pm

re: #321 Lizard by the Bay

I think I'd rather know so that I could get my affairs in order, say goodbye, destroy the porn collection... you know, important stuff!

Suit yourself, my collection is going in my will.

/You like the midget stuff, right?
//I kid.

337 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:40:43pm

re: #332 redc1c4

what game was this?

Baseball's All-Star game.

338 Yankee Division Son  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:41:00pm

re: #332 redc1c4

what game was this?

All-Star game

339 wolfie  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:41:12pm

4-3 in 15 ! (Al wins on sac fly)

340 Inquisitive  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:41:13pm

re: #271 Mich-again

We buried my Father in Law this morning. He lost a long bout with cancer. We were there with him in the hospital room when he finally gave up fighting and asked for the morphine drip to just end it all. The guy never had much use for any organized religion, but he lived a good life and was always a lot of fun to hang out with.


So sorry for your families loss."But he lived a good life and was always a lot of fun to hang out with" is a great tribute to any person, and these few words says a lot about the person he must have been.
Prayers for all the family.

341 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:41:16pm

AL is 11 - 0 - 1 since 1997.

342 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:41:19pm

re: #321 Lizard by the Bay

I think I'd rather know so that I could get my affairs in order, say goodbye, destroy pass on the porn collection... you know, important stuff!

don't forget the guns: you have to make sure the guns are gone before the cops get there, or they will take them "for safekeeping".

/happened to a friend

343 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:42:06pm

My 3 kids will have to fight over the 71 Les Paul. I plan on taking that with me.

344 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:44:07pm

re: #321 Lizard by the Bay

I think I'd rather know so that I could get my affairs in order, say goodbye, destroy the porn collection... you know, important stuff!

Trouble is, you could be young, be as healthy as an ox, and be on your way down to cash in the winning lottery ticket... when suddenly you get clobbered by a meteorite! You just never know. :D

Probably best to always have your house in order, just in case.

345 Yankee Division Son  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:44:10pm

MVP = J.D. Drew?

346 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:44:57pm

re: #340 Inquisitive

and these few words says a lot about the person he must have been.

Good point and thanks..

347 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:45:31pm

re: #345 Yankee Division Son

Yep. Who else?

348 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:46:05pm

Drew: the 15th player in All-Star game history to homer in his first ever All-Star at bat.

349 BigJohn  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:47:10pm

re: #331 redc1c4

Well I've been lucky. I have never had stomach problems, but I don't take that combo very often; just when I felt gout coming on. Probably twice in the last year and a half.

350 Mich-again  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:47:21pm

Yes its J. D. Drew. Ha.

351 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:47:45pm

re: #333 Lizard by the Bay

Would that be better than a hydrocodone/ibuprofen mix?

i'm not gonna play doc:
1. it's above my training level
2. every doc would tell you "bad idea, don't do either."

APAP has liver issues with ethanol than can kill you
ASA and NASIDS have gut lining issues with ethanol than can kill you
Hydrocodone has amelioration issues with ethanol tha can kill you.
there are other side issues involved, all of which, sooner or later, can kill you.

ergo, no combo of any of the above is a good idea. you are playing Russian roulette *every* time you do this.

if you are doing this just to sleep, you need to talk to your doc & pharmacist to find something safer.

if you are in pain, and that's causing the lack of sleep, you need to review your meds with the pros in the above line, and if necessary, see a pain management specialist.

on the off chance you're doing it for the buzz, it's gonna injure/kill you one day, sooner or later.

352 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:49:29pm

It is sweet to see a Red Sox player win the MVP at Yankees Stadium.

353 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:49:39pm

re: #350 Mich-again

Yes its J. D. Drew. Ha.

didn't he used to be an LA Dodger.....

/sigh

we trade for shit, and we trade away*the* shit.
(bring back the O'Malleys! %-)

354 solomonpanting  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:50:17pm

Now here's an intelligently designed name:

Asia Times

Mar 6, 2008

CAMPAIGN OUTSIDER
Mud flies, Clinton wins




By Muhammad Cohen

355 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:50:26pm

Charles!

Every post in my page from #302 forward is missing the plus/minus icons and the comment rating. All they have is the heart icon and the exclamation icon.

356 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:50:39pm

re: #352 freedombilly

It is sweet to see a Red Sox player win the MVP at Yankees Stadium.

Yep. Even better because this is the last year for the "old" stadium.

357 Panhandler  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:51:41pm

re: #355 victor_yugo
Still got em, ding up on your 355.

358 freedombilly  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:52:03pm

re: #355 victor_yugo

Did you try to refresh the page, not just hit "New Comments"? That usually works for me when that happens.

359 victor_yugo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:52:38pm

re: #358 freedombilly

Did you try to refresh the page, not just hit "New Comments"? That usually works for me when that happens.

Aha, that means I'm not the only one seeing this.

360 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:53:06pm

re: #355 victor_yugo

Charles!

Every post in my page from #302 forward is missing the plus/minus icons and the comment rating. All they have is the heart icon and the exclamation icon.

Hit refresh... that ought to take care of it.

361 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:53:27pm

re: #356 mattm

Yep. Even better because this is the last year for the "old" stadium.

They're presumably going to build a bigger and better one by next season, right? I hope the new one does the old one justice. I.e. that they give us a design style that invokes the feeling of the old park.

362 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:53:37pm

re: #355 victor_yugo

Charles!

Every post in my page from #302 forward is missing the plus/minus icons and the comment rating. All they have is the heart icon and the exclamation icon.

reload..... and try flushing your cache first.

/here to help?

363 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:53:58pm

re: #354 solomonpanting

Heh, this is so far my favorite sentence there:

Nice math if you can get it.

Math, work, whatever.

364 melinwy  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:54:28pm

re: #320 BigJohn

for gout, cherry juice works wonders
amazing stuff, my hubby had it and drank
the cherry juice, all is well now

365 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:55:49pm

re: #332 redc1c4

and he gets two bites on the bait. %-)

366 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:57:11pm

re: #356 mattm

Yep. Even better because this is the last year for the "old" stadium.

The "old" stadium that's 64 years newer than Fenway.

367 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:58:06pm

re: #254 jaunte

Under the short-bus?
/

368 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:58:13pm

re: #366 Abu Al-Poopypants

Eh? Just how "old" IS this stadium?

369 solomonpanting  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 10:59:46pm

re: #363 Slumbering Behemoth


Math, work, whatever.

Both are four-letter words.

370 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:00:16pm

re: #322 Slumbering Behemoth

Yikes. I'm gonna remember that. I had food poisoning once that felt like that, but I decided to ride it out (five days). I was lucky, it was food poising (my buddy ate the same thing, same results), but it could have just as easily been something worse.

Your tale is an object lesson on why I should not go the "ride it out tough guy" route. Thanks for sharing that.

Sal: NO WAY this kinda maxxed-out grenades-exploding-in-yer-gut total pain could be ridden out; you'd be raving "Take me to the hospital NOW!" even if no one was there, just as surely as you'd spill the beans to the nearest wall if you were waterboarded. When it gets that excruciatingly intense, will washes away like water, as does a lot of external perception, and all that's left is ITSGOTTASTOP!

I've had cluster headaches, in cycles. I've passed kidney stones that made me piss pink for a week. I've packed my campsite up, backpacked myself three miles to my car with a whittled sapling crutch, and driven 50 miles into town with a snapped leg. But THIS pain was on a COMPLETELY different level.

371 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:00:55pm

Yankee Stadium was basically knocked down and rebuilt from 73-76. Fenway's plans for being similarly rebuilt in the early '00s were nixed by the current ownership when they took over.

372 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:01:24pm

re: #369 solomonpanting

Technically, so are both and four.

:D :D :D :D

373 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:02:12pm

re: #368 NomadOfNorad

Eh? Just how "old" IS this stadium?

It opened in 1923.

374 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:02:36pm

re: #370 Salamantis

I've passed kidney stones that made me piss pink for a week. I've packed my campsite up, backpacked myself three miles to my car with a whittled sapling crutch, and driven 50 miles into town with a snapped leg.


I hate when that happens.

375 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:02:54pm

Any IDers lurking tonight?


I've got a question for you. If the Intelligent Design movement has nothing to do with Creationism and isn't an attempt to circumvent the constitution by inserting religion into science classes, why is Howard Ahmanson a major financial backer and on their board of Directors? The same Howard Ahmanson who funded and sat on the board of the Chalcedon Foundation?

376 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:02:59pm

re: #373 mattm

What sorts of changes, if any, have been made to it since 1923?

377 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:05:09pm

re: #363 Slumbering Behemoth

Heh, this is so far my favorite sentence there:

Math, work, whatever.

you misspelled 'w*rk'......

HTH!

378 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:05:34pm

re: #375 Wendya

ARE YOU NUTS?!?!?!?! DON'T DANGLE CARROTS IN FRONT OF THE ID'ERS HERE! ! !

379 BigJohn  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:06:27pm

re: #364 melinwy

Thank you. My aunt suggested that also. I have not had a severe attack in over 3 years. I know how it feels when it begins. A huge dose of Ibuprofen knocks it out pretty quick for me. Before that when it had already set in, Ibuprofen and booze made it tolerable until it went away.

380 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:08:37pm

re: #370 Salamantis

my friend, now officially the toughest guy i know, had a kidney stone that his quack doc said didn't exist. it started down his urethra, got almost to the tip, where he could see & feel the point, when it stopped.

he pulled it out with tweezers, and now wears in, encased in resin, as a ncek lace. it's about the diameter of a #2 pencil. %-)

/drink more water!

381 solomonpanting  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:09:44pm

re: #372 NomadOfNorad

Technically, so are both and four.

:D :D :D :D

Twue, but math and work are the recipients of more invective than both and four.
8)

382 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:10:16pm

re: #381 solomonpanting

:D :D :D :D :D :D

383 esch  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:10:31pm

re: #370 Salamantis

Sucks, doesn't it? In the last 20 years with Crohn's I've had plenty of experiences like that. It's kind of sad that people don't actually believe in pain on that level until they live it. They think you're exaggerating or being overly dramatic.

384 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:10:34pm

re: #381 solomonpanting

Twue, but math and work are the recipients of more invective than both and four.
8)

"math is hard!"

/Barbie

385 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:11:02pm

re: #376 NomadOfNorad

What sorts of changes, if any, have been made to it since 1923?

I know it underwent major construction in the 1970's, basically rebuilding portions.

386 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:11:36pm

re: #383 esch

Sucks, doesn't it? In the last 20 years with Crohn's I've had plenty of experiences like that. It's kind of sad that people don't actually believe in pain on that level until they live it. They think you're exaggerating or being overly dramatic.

makes me glad all i've got is UC....

the worst part of it is it's all my fault. %-(

387 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:13:14pm

re: #385 mattm

Did any of that rebuilding of sections involve expanding the size of the place? Or adding more levels of seating?

388 esch  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:13:24pm

re: #386 redc1c4

How do you figure?

389 mattm  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:17:15pm

re: #387 NomadOfNorad

Did any of that rebuilding of sections involve expanding the size of the place? Or adding more levels of seating?

It appears the capacity was reduced after the renovation.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

390 pat  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:17:42pm

Late as usual. But the premise means nothing and is stupid. Typical Muslim Logic, but hardly worthy of comment. There is no one convinced this is meaningful discourse.
Again, it looks like Muslims desperately looking for a toe-hold in the modern Universe. Hindus no longer think of the world as being the back of a turtle, and I know of which I speak here, Christians no longer think the world is the center of the Universe, (unproven, but unlikely,lol). Muslims still believe whatever BS they hear on Friday. I believe the transcendence of Islam is caught in the thrall of ignorant , rather stupid, village bullies with 2 followers repreaching a 1000 years of nonsense.
We should not attribute Creationist thought to Islam. There is no nexus. ID and Creationism may be unscientific, but it is hardly Islamic.

391 laZardo  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:17:50pm

re: #380 redc1c4

Happy Wednesday to you too. (;

392 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:18:26pm

re: #387 NomadOfNorad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yankee_Stadium
Since a significant portion of the stadium was demolished and rebuilt, some consider the rebuilt Yankee Stadium a different facility from the pre-renovation stadium. For example, the ESPN Sports Almanac considers the renovated stadium to be "Yankee Stadium II," and the pre-renovated facility to be "Yankee Stadium I".

FWIW

393 NY Nana  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:20:03pm

re: #390 pat

Isn't muslim logic an oxymoron?

Got to go to sleep....looooong day!

G'nite, all.

394 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:20:27pm

re: #370 Salamantis

Pain is subjective, but I will take your word for it. I've never had diverticulitis (nor a busted colon), so I wouldn't know, and I can't pretend to speak to what kind of pain you were in. I hope you don't think that's what I was doing.

395 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:22:03pm

re: #380 redc1c4

my friend, now officially the toughest guy i know, had a kidney stone that his quack doc said didn't exist. it started down his urethra, got almost to the tip, where he could see & feel the point, when it stopped.

he pulled it out with tweezers, and now wears in, encased in resin, as a ncek lace. it's about the diameter of a #2 pencil. %-)

/drink more water!

My first Kidney stone was an inch long, the width of a pencil and covered in spikes. It wedged itself in the right ureter and moved very slowly over a period of a couple of weeks. At the time, I was living in the middle east and they kept telling me it would pass. Uh-huh. I ended up flying to London 2 days before Christmas and then back to the USA (after diverting to Canada because of a massive storm) and on to Portland Oregon. I sort of remember the taxi to the hospital and then I don't remember a damned thing for the next 72 hours. Short story... it wasn't going to evacuate by itself and had to be removed.

The pain was so intense I was beyond screaming. Don't want to ever go there again!

396 pat  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:22:05pm

re: #393 NY Nana

Isn't muslim logic an oxymoron?

Got to go to sleep....looooong day!

G'nite, all.

Yep. lol, nite

397 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:23:03pm

re: #388 esch

How do you figure?

industrial strength gut, until i started w*rking in the medical field....

started taking Zantac & such, due to acid issues, mostly self inflicted: too much coffee, not enough food, etc.

ate at a hole in the wall, and the bug ran wild. irritated everything, but eventually got better. repeated this several times until gut got *really* bad. even my favorite beers, the ones with yeast residue, would trigger episodes.

did some thinking, and extrapolated that the Ph change cause by the H2 receptor site inhibitors caused my flora & fauna to change, due to the change in habitat and everything went down hill from there.

haven't taken one since, and am much better, but may never be back to "pre" status every.....

/at least i can drink beer again! %-)

398 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:24:31pm

re: #378 NomadOfNorad

ARE YOU NUTS?!?!?!?! DON'T DANGLE CARROTS IN FRONT OF THE ID'ERS HERE! ! !

I thought I'd give it a shot and see if anyone was stupid enough to take the bait.

I guess they're all in bed asleep.

399 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:24:52pm

re: #390 pat

ID and Creationism may be unscientific, but it is hardly Islamic.

they seem to 'think'* otherwise....

/*term used loosely %-)

400 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:25:40pm

re: #398 Wendya

I thought I'd give it a shot and see if anyone was stupid enough to take the bait.

I guess they're all in bed asleep.

or dinging people down in old threads......

/not likely that they're drinking %-)

401 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:26:14pm

re: #383 esch

Sucks, doesn't it? In the last 20 years with Crohn's I've had plenty of experiences like that. It's kind of sad that people don't actually believe in pain on that level until they live it. They think you're exaggerating or being overly dramatic.

Yeah; it sucked great big greasy green donkey dicks, on dry ice. It should be an example in the urban dictionary, to define total suckage.

402 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:27:20pm

re: #398 Wendya

I would hope so. Anyway, it kinda looked like Charles was on a short fuse tonight... :-|

403 Ojoe  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:29:25pm
Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, recently restated his (and Pope John Paul's) argument. As MSNBC reported, Pope Benedict has referred to the debate between creationists and supporters of evolutionary theory as an "absurdity":

"They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other," the pope said. "This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such."
On the other hand, there are certain questions that evolutionary theory can never answer: "Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, 'Where does everything come from?'" Christians, thus, can learn truth from science, but scientists must learn to accept the limits of their own work. No scientific investigation can ever prove that God does not exist, or that He did not create the world, or even that man is only the sum of his physical parts.


Link

404 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:29:40pm

re: #395 Wendya

My first Kidney stone was an inch long, the width of a pencil and covered in spikes. It wedged itself in the right ureter and moved very slowly over a period of a couple of weeks. At the time, I was living in the middle east and they kept telling me it would pass. Uh-huh. I ended up flying to London 2 days before Christmas and then back to the USA (after diverting to Canada because of a massive storm) and on to Portland Oregon. I sort of remember the taxi to the hospital and then I don't remember a damned thing for the next 72 hours. Short story... it wasn't going to evacuate by itself and had to be removed.

The pain was so intense I was beyond screaming. Don't want to ever go there again!

they're *all* covered in spikes..... they're crystals.

his 2nd (new/competent) doc said that it's the biggest stone he's ever seen that was passed whole. all others this size in his experience were surgically removed, hence my admiration/awe for Nick..... even if he *is* a crazy bastid.

405 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:29:48pm

OT:

FOX NEWS IS REPORTING THE TWO "BODIES" OF GOLDWASSER AND REGEV HAVE ARRIVED AT THE BORDER FOR EXCHANGE.

I was 99% sure this is how it would be, but I was clinging to the 1% hope that at least one of them would be alive.

406 Ojoe  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:31:44pm

re: #374 Abu Al-Poopypants

You get the wilderness survival and first aid merit badges.

407 esch  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:32:47pm

re: #401 Salamantis

Yeah; it sucked great big greasy green donkey dicks, on dry ice. It should be an example in the urban dictionary, to define total suckage.

Yep. Once my wife got sick with something very and chronically painful (she got better) she apologized for ever making or thinking light of my pain. It was now real to her.

408 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:33:07pm

re: #405 American Jewess In Jerusalem

OT:

FOX NEWS IS REPORTING THE TWO "BODIES" OF GOLDWASSER AND REGEV HAVE ARRIVED AT THE BORDER FOR EXCHANGE.

I was 99% sure this is how it would be, but I was clinging to the 1% hope that at least one of them would be alive.

it's sad, but just like when our troops in OIF/OEF get captured, you have to assume they kill them almost immediately.

where is the outcry from the Gitmo whiners when *that* occurs?

/rhetorical

409 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:33:40pm

re: #405 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Have they released the prisoners yet? (I would hope they tagged them with some kind of ultra-ultra-miniature radio tracking device...)

410 esch  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:33:52pm

Night all.

411 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:34:07pm

re: #383 esch

Sucks, doesn't it? In the last 20 years with Crohn's I've had plenty of experiences like that. It's kind of sad that people don't actually believe in pain on that level until they live it. They think you're exaggerating or being overly dramatic.

That is not at all what I meant with my response to Sal's post, if that is what you're implying.

412 Ojoe  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:36:18pm

re: #56 MandyManners

I myself descended from bears.

Heck with this ape shit.

Far back, I come from this.

413 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:37:16pm

re: #394 Slumbering Behemoth

Pain is subjective, but I will take your word for it. I've never had diverticulitis (nor a busted colon), so I wouldn't know, and I can't pretend to speak to what kind of pain you were in. I hope you don't think that's what I was doing.

Sal: Don't worry; I didn't think that you were. In fact, I KNOW that if you sat at home for five days, you weren't experiencing anything resembling what I went through...Chuck Norris himself would've roundkicked himself through ER triage, and Braveheart would have screamed Morphine! instead of Freedom...;~)

It is said that the worst way to die from a bullet is to be gutshot. I think that the reason that this is said has a lot to do with what people see gutshot people going through while they are dying.

414 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:37:34pm

re: #412 Ojoe

I myself descended from bears.

Heck with this ape shit.

Far back, I come from this.

Now that would make a cool avatar for someone.

415 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:37:42pm

re: #400 redc1c4

or dinging people down in old threads......

ROTFL!

I went back and looked at the last couple of ID threads I've posted on and sure enough..... some little twit dings down every comment I make, yet she doesn't have the guts to comment on those threads herself.


Why am I not surprised?

416 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:39:05pm

re: #407 esch

Yep. Once my wife got sick with something very and chronically painful (she got better) she apologized for ever making or thinking light of my pain. It was now real to her.

severe burns are fun too, especially the debriedment process shrtly after the initial injury.....

especially if the active army doctor decides that the NG trooper involved doesn't need any pain meds prior to the procedure.

literally, i had a bandanna rolled up and in my mouth, like an old John Wayne movie. that's all, not even an aspirin, even after. in the midst of it all i kicked a hole in the wall of the room where they were conducting this "treatment".

said officer threatened me with being charged for the expense of the repair. not feeling charitable, and somewhat put out, i pointed out, with proper military discipline, that my boot could have gone the other direction...... (his crotch level) that was the end of the discussion and my treatment @ weed army hospital.

my follow on care at LBNH is another nightmare of military indifference, but not germane to the issues at hand.

/burns suck! %-)

417 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:39:49pm

re: #409 NomadOfNorad

Have they released the prisoners yet? (I would hope they tagged them with some kind of ultra-ultra-miniature radio tracking device...)

i hope they tagged them with 100 mcg of ricin.

418 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:43:32pm

re: #405 American Jewess In Jerusalem

The exchange should have been an equal one.

My drift?

419 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:44:04pm

re: #395 Wendya

My first Kidney stone was an inch long, the width of a pencil and covered in spikes. It wedged itself in the right ureter and moved very slowly over a period of a couple of weeks. At the time, I was living in the middle east and they kept telling me it would pass. Uh-huh. I ended up flying to London 2 days before Christmas and then back to the USA (after diverting to Canada because of a massive storm) and on to Portland Oregon. I sort of remember the taxi to the hospital and then I don't remember a damned thing for the next 72 hours. Short story... it wasn't going to evacuate by itself and had to be removed.

The pain was so intense I was beyond screaming. Don't want to ever go there again!


Yeah. That kinda pain. My kidney stones have all been blessedly passable, with the administration of narcotics in most cases ( a couple I passed without them). Here's how that works:

Your urethral tube spasms when the kidney stone drops in, and locks down on it...but the pressure of the urine pushes it down through the spasming conduit...until it locks up, and won't go any farther (and they do this once they exceed a certain size). Then, eventually, the channel ruptures, and you piss all into your insides, like I shat into mine. What the narcotics do is to relax the urethral canal spasms, and allow the stone to wash on through - unless it's too big for even that, like yours was. In that case, surgery is the only option.

420 Wendya  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:44:20pm

re: #404 redc1c4

they're *all* covered in spikes..... they're crystals.

his 2nd (new/competent) doc said that it's the biggest stone he's ever seen that was passed whole. all others this size in his experience were surgically removed, hence my admiration/awe for Nick..... even if he *is* a crazy bastid.

Actually, the second one I had was rather smooth.... looked more like a pebble. I was actually able to pass that one and it was a walk in the park compared to #1.

421 wanglese  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:45:06pm

This should really worry the IDers.
Instead of teaching Christianity in science class, they are going to have to teach Islam, and use the Koran as a science text, along with the Bible.

I can see IDer's heads exploding at the concept.

422 Ojoe  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:46:51pm

re: #415 Wendya

We'll she if she dings down the Pope in my post No. 403.

423 Panhandler  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:48:07pm

re: #420 Wendya
Worst part for me was in the ER after the CAT scan. Doc comes in and says he has good news and bad news - Good news, the stone looks like it has passed. The bad news - there's 2 more and the 2nd one is on its way down.

424 AmeriDan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:49:28pm

re: #418 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #405 American Jewess In Jerusalem

The exchange should have been an equal one.

My drift?

That sums up my feelings perfectly.

Hello Ladies and Gentleman... and Red. ;)

425 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:51:30pm

re: #420 Wendya

Actually, the second one I had was rather smooth.... looked more like a pebble. I was actually able to pass that one and it was a walk in the park compared to #1.

smaller spikes..... Nicks was like fine sandpaper to the touch, but still.....

/cringe

426 Slumbering Behemoth  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:51:30pm

re: #421 wanglese

The ones in "the know" (DI insiders) aren't suffering from exploding heads, they are reveling in exploding wallets.

427 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:52:01pm

re: #424 AmeriDan

On the other hand, if they'd implanted into them some sort of radio tracking device... then they could have waited until they were at some kind of meeting with other terrorist types... then send a radio-guided bomb to that location. Muahahahahaha!

428 redc1c4  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:54:40pm

re: #424 AmeriDan

That sums up my feelings perfectly.

Hello Ladies and Gentleman... and Rred. ;)

/fixed that for ya!

Que Paso?

429 AmeriDan  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:58:20pm

re: #427 NomadOfNorad

On the other hand, if they'd implanted into them some sort of radio tracking device... then they could have waited until they were at some kind of meeting with other terrorist types... then send a radio-guided bomb to that location. Muahahahahaha!

Good point.

Of course the meeting would be described by the useful idiots of the MSM as a "wedding" after it was bombed, because we all know that there has never been a wedding in the ME that wasn't bombed by the US.

430 NomadOfNorad  Tue, Jul 15, 2008 11:59:50pm

re: #429 AmeriDan

Good point.

Of course the meeting would be described by the useful idiots of the MSM as a "wedding" after it was bombed, because we all know that there has never been a wedding in the ME that wasn't bombed by the US.

Then there must not be very many weddings. :-|

431 wanglese  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:02:03am

#420:

I had a big one in my left Kidney, and it had moved down into the urethra, and wedged. I had to have "stent" inserted in my dingus for a week so that they could widen the pathway so that in the second op, they could put in a "basket" to get it out.

It was day surgery, but I couldn't urinate when I got home, and I needed to, so we had to go back in the hospital so they could shove a tube in to "ease the pressure".
I remember the specialist saying "I'll bet right now, that if I nail you to the door by your fingernails, you will say the pain is less" He said that kind of pain is the greatest pain a male can endure.

I asked the specialist if I could keep the stone after it was removed, because I wanted it mounted.
I sent a photo of it compared to a $2.00 coin for reference to a mate in Idaho (Hi Coach!). He described it as "the Sandstone Arrowhead of Agony", which is apt. That's its shape and appearance.

432 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:03:30am

re: #429 AmeriDan

Good point.

Of course the meeting would be described by the useful idiots of the MSM as a "wedding" after it was bombed, because we all know that there has never been a wedding in the ME that wasn't bombed by the US.

"The wedding was great, but the reception bombed.... the firew*rks were too loud."

433 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:04:13am

re: #405 American Jewess In Jerusalem

I'm terribly sorry. I too didn't think...well....I was hoping against this despite my brain. I'm very sorry for our friend Israel.

434 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:07:00am

re: #427 NomadOfNorad

On the other hand, if they'd implanted into them some sort of radio tracking device... then they could have waited until they were at some kind of meeting with other terrorist types... then send a radio-guided bomb to that location. Muahahahahaha!

have to be non-transmitting, otherwise too easy to spot. you'd have to figure they're going to expect humint/drone/aircraft/sattelite recon on the issue and take appropriate steps.

that's why, imho, a nice dose of ricin, in a gelatin time delay just before he left, would be the way to go. AMF!

435 AmeriDan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:07:48am

re: #428 redc1c4

/fixed that for ya!

Que Paso?

Aye, aye on the lower case. As for your video link...

God Bless Texas

436 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:08:17am
437 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:10:18am

I'm starting to get the impression the creationists aren't coming tonight. Perhaps even they know better than to excuse this unholy alliance in this house.

438 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:11:13am

re: #437 Sharmuta

I'm starting to get the impression the creationists aren't coming tonight. Perhaps even they know better than to excuse this unholy alliance in this house.

Or maybe they've selected themselves out...the worst die first...

439 AmeriDan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:17:54am

re: #430 NomadOfNorad

Then there must not be very many weddings. :-|

There's always a wedding.

I could google more, but what would be the point? If a large gathering of people are bombed... it is always a wedding, or a funeral, or a religious service, Tupperware party, etc.

440 Mel Lono  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:18:37am

re: #438 Salamantis

Or maybe they've selected themselves out...the worst die first...


tough crowd, creationists, islamists or spiky kidney stones...

441 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:18:52am
442 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:19:21am

re: #434 redc1c4

have to be non-transmitting, otherwise too easy to spot. you'd have to figure they're going to expect humint/drone/aircraft/sattelite recon on the issue and take appropriate steps.

that's why, imho, a nice dose of ricin, in a gelatin time delay just before he left, would be the way to go. AMF!

Very good point, on both counts. Course, a variation on the implanted-radio-tracking-device idea would be to build in some kind of timed delay, or set it up so it only transmitted when a certain signal was beamed at it...

443 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:20:05am

Or maybe it's their new plan...they tried to dissuade Charles by squalling, but he kept posting, and kicking their whiny buttocks when they got too raucous. Maybe now they've decided to simmer down for a while, and see how that works.

My guess, though, based upon what I've seen with the Vlamms Belang posts, and the fact that he still posts new stuff on them and their US connections when he runs across it, is that it doesn't matter WHAT they do or do not do; if Charles runs into a link that mentions a way kewl evolutionary theory innovation or evidence discovery, or if he runs into anything that he deems shareworthy about the Disco Dudes, or Yahya, or their connections, we'll be seeing it. And I LIKE that.

444 pat  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:23:20am

Actually Kidney Stones are caused by Global Warming.
[Link: deathby1000papercuts.com...]

445 AmeriDan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:23:41am

re: #437 Sharmuta

I'm starting to get the impression the creationists aren't coming tonight. Perhaps even they know better than to excuse this unholy alliance in this house.

I Saw God Today

Maybe you could change "creationist" to ID'ers? I hate being lumped in with those fools.

446 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:24:41am

re: #438 Salamantis

Or maybe they've selected themselves out...the worst die first...

only the good die young

/living proof you can't kill a man born to hang %-)

447 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:26:50am

re: #444 pat

Wow!

Just....

Wow!

448 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:27:28am

re: #442 NomadOfNorad

Very good point, on both counts. Course, a variation on the implanted-radio-tracking-device idea would be to build in some kind of timed delay, or set it up so it only transmitted when a certain signal was beamed at it...

pretty much my idea, but still fraught with failure options. better the ricin in a gel cap. the OPFOR will scream bloody murder & demand revenge, but they were gonna keep coming anyway. fuck'em.

/simple, easy, permanent

449 Racer X  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:30:16am

re: #445 AmeriDan

Maybe you could change "creationist" to ID'ers? I hate being lumped in with those fools.

How about ID'iots?

450 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:32:05am

re: #443 Salamantis

Or- there could just be a few who might, MIGHT, be re-examining what it is they're supporting. Many have been saying this connection was going on, but this post is undeniable. Perhaps this was the straw that broke a couple backs tonight. I know it's possible to be smacked into reality, and LGF sure has a way of doing that to folks. Time will tell.

In the mean time, I made sure to stick this post in my favorites, just in case we end up getting a creationist later who might be missing this little gem of a post.

451 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:32:13am

re: #449 Racer X

Hmmmm... That's interesting. Is the correct pronunciation for the abbreviation "eye-dee", or "ihd"...? I've always been reading it "eye-dee."

452 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:32:32am

15 innings worth of All-Star underachieving. It's almost as though The House That Epstein Demolished Ruth Built knew her days were numbered and wanted the Midsummer Classic to last forever with all eyes on her.

Was it wrong for me to wonder what kind of charges and detonators they'd be using to take down Yankee stadium in the off-season?

453 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:32:39am

re: #447 NomadOfNorad

Wow!

Just....

Wow!

kidney stones, in general, are caused by lack of adequate hydration and, to a lesser extent, poor dietary habits. the specifics vary from person to person.

where do they occur? where it's hot... what happens when it's hot? people dehydrate. what do the old ladies tell you to do when it's hot? get lots of salt! what do GI's (and lots of others) do when it's hot? drink lots of Gatorade and the like....

what does all this cause? since people are not drinking lots of plain old water, they build up excess minerals in the body, which are mostly filtered out by the kidneys. when the mineral/water levels get too high, crystals form, and once formed, don't really want to unform.

the rest, as they say, is pain.....

heavy water, easy lytes.

/91B

454 AmeriDan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:32:45am

re: #449 Racer X

How about ID'iots?

Even better. Thank you.

455 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:32:49am

Please excuse my typos- I forgot that PIMF.

456 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:33:14am

re: #450 Sharmuta

I only hope that's true...

457 Mel Lono  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:33:27am

re: #446 redc1c4

only the good die young

/living proof you can't kill a man born to hang %-)

Forever Young

Hey Red.

458 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:35:28am

re: #452 Fenway_Nation

15 innings worth of All-Star underachieving. It's almost as though The House That Epstein Demolished Ruth Built knew her days were numbered and wanted the Midsummer Classic to last forever with all eyes on her.

Was it wrong for me to wonder what kind of charges and detonators they'd be using to take down Yankee stadium in the off-season?

tac nuke? multiple FAE's? an MOAB or two?

/Dodger fan %-)

459 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:36:09am

re: #453 redc1c4

Yeah, but tying kidney stones to global warming? Eeeee...GAD!

How long is it gonna be before everyone realizes this manmade-global-warming thing has done jumped the shark?

460 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:36:44am

re: #436 ploome hineni

From your link:


Once the IDF is sure Goldwasser and Regev have been returned, Israel will transfer Kuntar and the four Hizbullah prisoners to Lebanon.

So the exchange is not complete, but I still hold out foolish hope that it will be reciprocal. Wishful thinking on my part, I know.

461 Mel Lono  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:37:17am

re: #457 Mel Lono

462 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:37:18am

re: #455 Sharmuta

Please excuse my typos- I forgot that PIFW.

/fixed that for ya!

463 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:38:21am

re: #459 NomadOfNorad

Yeah, but tying kidney stones to global warming? Eeeee...GAD!

How long is it gonna be before everyone realizes this manmade-global-warming thing has done jumped the shark?

after all the water has evaporated and the sharks have grown suits and law degrees?

/just a swag %-)

464 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:40:57am

re: #437 Sharmuta

I'm starting to get the impression the creationists aren't coming tonight. Perhaps even they know better than to excuse this unholy alliance in this house.

They've been uncharacteristically non-ding-ish as well. Perhaps there is a meeting that we don't know about?

/Or an impromptu pot luck?

465 AmeriDan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:42:01am

re: #450 Sharmuta

Or- there could just be a few who might, MIGHT, be re-examining what it is they're supporting. Many have been saying this connection was going on, but this post is undeniable. Perhaps this was the straw that broke a couple backs tonight. I know it's possible to be smacked into reality, and LGF sure has a way of doing that to folks. Time will tell.

In the mean time, I made sure to stick this post in my favorites, just in case we end up getting a creationist later who might be missing this little gem of a post.

No one's mind has been changed tonight. People who believe that God created the heavens and the earth are quite secure in their beliefs.

You are talking about the IDiots (HT to Racer X).

466 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:42:30am

any requests for the untraditional fruitcup additions tonight?

we will bypass the evidently popular hydrocodone/APAP/ASA/NASAID items on the grounds that they offend even *my* sensibilities......

other options are still available, and operators are standing by.

/meanwhile, i'll get busy. %-)

467 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:43:16am

re: #464 Slumbering Behemoth

They've been uncharacteristically non-ding-ish as well. Perhaps there is a meeting that we don't know about?

/Or an impromptu pot luck?

who created the recipes for the food?

468 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:43:37am

re: #458 redc1c4

tac nuke? multiple FAE's? an MOAB or two?

/Dodger fan %-)

I was gonna guess emulite insreted into strategically drilled holes throughout the Toilet Yankee Stadium. For some reason, I'm still preoccupied with what sort of detonators they plan on using.....will it be the old time plunger from countless cartoons of yore or will it be the hand-held 'clacker' like the Army uses for the Claymore?

469 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:46:16am

re: #468 Fenway_Nation

I dunno... maybe they'll go the sci-fi route and slice it apart with high-powered lasers. :D

470 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:46:27am

re: #465 AmeriDan

No one's mind has been changed tonight. People who believe that God created the heavens and the earth are quite secure in their beliefs.

You are talking about the IDiots (HT to Racer X).

this may have been asked before, but why couldn't G*d (in what ever form you wish) have created evolution and just let it run?

seems to me that some folks just don't do well with uncertainty.

/they should eat desert first. %-)

471 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:47:56am

re: #468 Fenway_Nation

I was gonna guess emulite insreted into strategically drilled holes throughout the Toilet Yankee Stadium. For some reason, I'm still preoccupied with what sort of detonators they plan on using.....will it be the old time plunger from countless cartoons of yore or will it be the hand-held 'clacker' like the Army uses for the Claymore?

something resembling a mixing board for music, with *lots* of amperage.

one pass, haul ass, and hope it comes down.

/sometimes they don't

472 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:48:18am

re: #465 AmeriDan

No one's mind has been changed tonight. People who believe that God created the heavens and the earth are quite secure in their beliefs.

You are talking about the IDiots (HT to Racer X).

Yes- thank you. I'm well aware of whom it is I'm speaking.

473 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:48:42am

re: #449 Racer X

How about ID'iots?

I like IDiotarians.

474 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:48:52am

re: #469 NomadOfNorad

re: #458 redc1c4

By the way, look for one of the Kos-tards or LGFwretch to start cherry-picking quotes about us 'domestic terrorists' at LGF who were openly advocating the destruction of Yankee stadium...

475 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:50:36am

re: #474 Fenway_Nation

re: #458 redc1c4

By the way, look for one of the Kos-tards or LGFwretch to start cherry-picking quotes about us 'domestic terrorists' at LGF who were openly advocating the destruction of Yankee stadium...

They must be even bigger clueless idiots than usual if they do THAT. Wouldn't put it past them, though... :-|

476 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:52:12am

For what it's worth, I was NYC last week, dropping some relatives off @ La Guardia after the Sox/Yankees game. We drove across the White Stone bridge (?) and right in front of us was the new Shea stadium. So many metal trusses that I mistook it for another brdige at first.....

477 AmeriDan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:52:53am

re: #470 redc1c4

this may have been asked before, but why couldn't G*d (in what ever form you wish) have created evolution and just let it run?

seems to me that some folks just don't do well with uncertainty.

/they should eat desert first. %-)

red,

I believe that that is exactly what he did do. As far as the fish to monkey to man thing... I ain't buying it... but I believe in evolution of species.

478 ibmkeyboard  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:53:44am

re: #468 Fenway_Nation


I was gonna guess emulite inserted into strategically drilled holes throughout the Yankee Stadium. For some reason, I'm still preoccupied with what sort of detonators they plan on using..


Maybe they will find Jimmy Hoffa.

479 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:54:09am

re: #424 AmeriDan

That sums up my feelings perfectly.

Hello Ladies and Gentleman....and red;))

/fixed that for ya!

meant to dump this in earlier but the ISP did it's usual quavno ...

if anyone want's an opinion, and even if you don't ATT DSL sucks bowling balls through IV tubing tied up in knots and heat sealed at both ends.

/and that's just for starters. %-)

480 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:54:20am

re: #464 Slumbering Behemoth

LOL- I think they're sh*t out of pot luck.

481 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:54:26am

re: #467 redc1c4

who created the recipes for the food?

According to this guy, primitive man, over 250,000 years ago.

/Not sure you'll find that at his site, but I saw his show this week that briefly touched on raw v. cooking in in the development of primitive man.

482 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:55:04am

re: #474 Fenway_Nation

re: #458 redc1c4

By the way, look for one of the Kos-tards or LGFwretch to start cherry-picking quotes about us 'domestic terrorists' at LGF who were openly advocating the destruction of Yankee stadium...

to quote a great American: "Bring it on."

/utter contempt

483 Egfrow  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:56:35am

I'm sorry, but doesn't anyone else see the extended logic and similarities with the spread of these hate American Black Churches, such as Obama's Trinity with the spread of Creationism in Schools. Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam have congregated at this church and this type of hatred is not typical of black ethnic churches throughout the rest of the USA. I've been to many and they are nothing like the Devil's piss spewed out of the Pulpit of Trinity. There seems to be an agenda to put a "Wedge" In all traditional beliefs so as to weaken them for the entrance of a much more aggressive replacement. Islam is it's name and we only have to look to Europe for a preview of what's to come.

484 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:56:39am

re: #478 ibmkeyboard

Maybe they will find Jimmy Hoffa.

I thought that was across the river at Meadowlands, where the New Jersey Giants and New Jersey Jets play their home games....

485 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:57:35am

re: #477 AmeriDan

red,

I believe that that is exactly what she did do. As far as the fish to monkey to man thing... I ain't buying it... but I believe in evolution of species.

it doesn't make sense to you because you're male.... see up thread, then join us in the bunker. Blue's on the hatch and will let you in...... unless the fire is intense. %-)

/BYOB

486 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:00:32am

re: #477 AmeriDan

red,

I believe that that is exactly what he did do. As far as the fish to monkey to man thing... I ain't buying it... but I believe in evolution of species.

Sal: It isn't a matter of buying it or selling it; it's simply a matter of recognizing the statistically overwhelming genetic evidence that's out there for all who look to see. Turn away from it, or close your eyes, and it stands there nonetheless. It is what it is; and what it is renders it overwhelmingly probable - a probability asymptotically approaching apodictic certainty - that humans and great apes share common ancestors. No one has the power to falsify the true. Especially when it can be checked and verified at will.

487 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:01:34am

re: #481 Slumbering Behemoth

According to this guy, primitive man, over 250,000 years ago.

/Not sure you'll find that at his site, but I saw his show this week that briefly touched on raw v. cooking in in the development of primitive man.

someone needs to tell him that grilling ain't BBQ.

besides: we all know a woman nagged Ug into trying it the first time.

488 AmeriDan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:02:37am

re: #484 Fenway_Nation

I thought that was across the river at Meadowlands, where the New Jersey Giants and New Jersey Jets play their home games....

Correct, as far as the word on the street goes. Supposedly under one of the end-zones.

BTW, hello Fenway.

489 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:03:43am

re: #483 Egfrow

I'm sorry, but doesn't anyone else see the extended logic and similarities with the spread of these hate American Black Churches, such as Obama's Trinity with the spread of Creationism in Schools. Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam have congregated at this church and this type of hatred is not typical of black ethnic churches throughout the rest of the USA. I've been to many and they are nothing like the Devil's piss spewed out of the Pulpit of Trinity. There seems to be an agenda to put a "Wedge" In all traditional beliefs so as to weaken them for the entrance of a much more aggressive replacement. Islam is it's name and we only have to look to Europe for a preview of what's to come.

and aren't you the ray of sunshine?

/glad i'm not any younger...... and that i have lots of white smoke

(even if it's use is racist. %-)

490 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:06:24am

re: #480 Sharmuta

LOL- I think they're sh*t out of pot luck.

Now that's funny. Stash is gone, no luck of gettin' a "re-up" soon. Faded.

Maybe they'll be back on point once they get the newest "talking points memo" from the hive mind.

491 NomadOfNorad  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:06:37am

Ah, finally, the overnight thread has arrived...

492 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:12:05am

re: #487 redc1c4

Bookmarked!

493 AmeriDan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:14:39am

re: #486 Salamantis


Hey Sal,

I was lurking earlier and have read your many post on this thread. I will agree that the complex DNA of all living things are but a code or two away from being the same.

We should agree to disagree on the other things.

Also, from the start of this thread until now, you have come many miles on posting a comment. So far that you don't need to add the "Sal:" before your thoughts.

We get ya.

Best regards,

AmeriDan

494 Fenway_Nation  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:15:02am

re: #488 AmeriDan

Correct, as far as the word on the street goes. Supposedly under one of the end-zones.

BTW, hello Fenway.

Hi...just in time to catch me move up to the open thread.....

495 redc1c4  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:21:20am

re: #492 Slumbering Behemoth

Bookmarked!

better yet, go to the Search page, register (Ray is righteous: your info isn't going *anywhere*) and search the collected wisdom of over 10 years of postings..... it's not perfect, and you'll have to sift, but there's gold in them there poasts. it'll also keep people on the forum from looking at you funny when you ask the newbie questions....... it's like an extended FAQ or Q.

and then there's Chez.

y'all will be bookmarking that. i garontee. %-)

496 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:26:30am

re: #493 AmeriDan

Hey Sal,

I was lurking earlier and have read your many post on this thread. I will agree that the complex DNA of all living things are but a code or two away from being the same.

We should agree to disagree on the other things.

Also, from the start of this thread until now, you have come many miles on posting a comment. So far that you don't need to add the "Sal:" before your thoughts.

We get ya.

Best regards,

AmeriDan

The point of the thousands of identical artifactual retroviral DNA sequences that humans and great apes share, though, is that the humans and great apes didn't evolve them; rather, they are where/when prior organisms became infected with retroviruses, and those retroviruses became inserted into the DNA sequences of the infected organisms. Their source is external rather than internal. The chances of humans and great apes independently catching precisely the same diseases, thousands of different times, at precisely the same times, over millions of years of history - years that none of these species was around, btw (no fossil records) - in the absence of common ancestors who contracted them, is less than the chance that Bridget the Midget can pole-vault to the moon.

497 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:41:42am

re: #495 redc1c4

Thanks for the links Red*, you know I am a fan of food.

*I capitalize nics out of Lizard respect. That is my little idiosyncrasy, and that ain't gonna change.

/DRINK!

498 picaro  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:16:57am

Evolution? ID?

Two sides of the same coin.

499 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:20:51am

re: #498 picaro

Evolution? ID?

Two sides of the same coin.

The rational, systematic investigation of reality is one side and flat-Earth denial is the other side? Of the same coin?

Haha! What a jokester you are, Picaro! WHAT coin is THAT?

500 dmjboose  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:28:09am

I hate intelligent design because it's both persistent and wrong, but:

Just because the Islamists like the idea doesn't make it wrong. It does mean that we should be more wary and give it extra scrutiny though, so thanks on that front.

501 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:32:47am

re: #500 dmjboose

DMJ, if IntelDesign DOES manage to get a foot into the door of American education, the Islamists will slide right in with them! THAT's a real problem!

502 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:38:08am

re: #500 dmjboose

Just because the Islamists like the idea doesn't make it wrong.

And nobody is saying that, to my knowledge. The idea is wrong because it's trying to foist non-science upon children in public school science classrooms. That the islamists like the idea should give us that much more concern.

503 picaro  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:48:15am

re: #499 Karridine

It's just that both theories are faith-based where scientific proof does not exist, so they have to fill in the gaps with speculation. I worked in a Univ of Calif genetics research lab a couple of decades ago. The professor was an ardent evolutionist but expressed incredulity at evolutionary theorists whose deus ex machina was a 'missing link' that existed but was yet undiscovered. He said that they might as well argue that "a miracle occurred!"

He was working on a paper with a philosophy prof and a symbolic logician the last year I was there. Don't know if he constructed a better line of reasoning.

504 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:58:03am
505 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:05:11am

re: #503 picaro

It's just that both theories are faith-based where scientific proof does not exist, so they have to fill in the gaps with speculation. I worked in a Univ of Calif genetics research lab a couple of decades ago. The professor was an ardent evolutionist but expressed incredulity at evolutionary theorists whose deus ex machina was a 'missing link' that existed but was yet undiscovered. He said that they might as well argue that "a miracle occurred!"

He was working on a paper with a philosophy prof and a symbolic logician the last year I was there. Don't know if he constructed a better line of reasoning.

Sal: I call God of the Gaps bullshit. If you were even aware of scientific terminology, you would know that theories can be falsified, but never verified, which is why scientists do not speak of empircal proof, only of empirical disproof. You also would not use the word 'theory' to refer to ID or to attempt to denigrate evolutionary theory, and ESPECIALLY not to try to equate the two, since theories require masses of supporting evidence, and ID has none whatsoever, which is why it is a sectarian religious dogma that neither belongs in science nor in public high school science class. Your use of the term 'ardent evolutionist' reveals you to be an IDer in bad disguise. The deux ex machina, missing link, a miracle occured crapola is just incoherently stringing buzzwords together. You have been unmasked.

The same thing for philosophy professor and symbolic logician. If you knew jack shit about either of them, you would know that symbolic logic is a branch of epistemology, which is a philosophical discipline, and you would either have said two philosophers, or given the other one's subspecialty.

The inductive reasoning that has been the modus operandus of science works quite well, and has for a long long time. It is the type of reasioning that is perfectly suited to application upon empirical evidence, unlike deductive reasoning, which simply pulls out the conclusions already implicit in premises.

How do I know all this? I have a ba in philosophy, and it was my major graduate study track as well (including a master's level class in philosophy of science), and your clumsy mendacity reeks on dry ice.

506 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:06:52am

re: #503 picaro

Seriously- when was the last time you looked into scientific discoveries concerning evolution. You worked in a genetics lab? Read up thread and explain retroviral DNA that Salamantis points out. In fact- read any of these evolution threads.

507 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:17:42am

Its time to label ID and Islamofascism what they really are. Pro-ignorance movements.

508 Annar  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:29:33am

Muslims believe a lot of nonsense as indicated by the following hadith.

Bukhari Volume 1, Book 10, Number 510:
Narrated Abu Huraira and 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

Allah's Apostle said, "If it is very hot, then pray the Zuhr prayer when it becomes (a bit) cooler, as the severity of the heat is from the raging of the Hell-fire."

This will probably be used to by Harun Yahya to explain global warming.

Both the Torah and the Qur'an are dim witted with respect to science and both see the Earth as flat. Modern Judaism and most rational Christians have learned to paint over these verses with an allegorical brush. Muslims and Christian fundamentalists have a harder job since the books (Bible, Qur'an) are the unerring literal truthful word of god and he means what he says. Thus, idiots like Dembski and Yahya are really fighting a common cause.

509 brandeisneocon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:12:52am

re: #508 Annar

Where does the Torah ever suggest that the world is flat?

510 brandeisneocon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:18:23am

re: #509 brandeisneocon

Judaism is not 'dim witted' in regards to science; consider the vastly disproportionate number of Jewish scientists and Nobel prize winners (I know it's a conspiracy, Muhammad).

The Zohar two thousand years ago elaborated on the notion of hemispheric specialization (the left side of the brain is analytic while the right side of the brain is spatial). Just a shot in the dark by some rabbis who had gotten a hold of the good stuff? Perhaps, or maybe not...

511 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:20:53am

re: #483 Egfrow

I'm sorry, but doesn't anyone else see the extended logic and similarities with the spread of these hate American Black Churches, such as Obama's Trinity with the spread of Creationism in Schools. Louis Farrakan and the Nation of Islam have congregated at this church and this type of hatred is not typical of black ethnic churches throughout the rest of the USA. I've been to many and they are nothing like the Devil's piss spewed out of the Pulpit of Trinity. There seems to be an agenda to put a "Wedge" In all traditional beliefs so as to weaken them for the entrance of a much more aggressive replacement. Islam is it's name and we only have to look to Europe for a preview of what's to come.

Isn't it part of the NOI belief system that white people are the result of a (malevolent) genetics experiment on blacks?

512 tgibson1962  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:31:02am

re: #508 Annar

Modern Judaism and most rational Christians have learned to paint over these verses with an allegorical brush. Muslims and Christian fundamentalists have a harder job since the books (Bible, Qur'an) are the unerring literal truthful word of god and he means what he says.

I can't speak to the issues covered in the Koran but, outside of books of the Bible whose structure, syntax & intent is obviously poetic, have you got an example of this?

513 nyc redneck  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:02:56am

moslems support i.d. as a way to divide our country.
they see this as an opportunity to scam christians and ultimately, western civilization.
christians need to see that isalm will never align w/ them in equality. islam has it's own deadly plan for usurping the infidel.
they are pushing to be dominant and see the christian i.d.'ers as useful fools.

514 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:10:35am

the humor is lost for me right now because this is the new headline there:

IDF Completes Identification Process
The identification process has been completed and the IDF has confirmed that the two coffins transfered to the IDF from Hezbollah contained the bodies of of First Sergeant Ehud Goldwasser and Sergeant First Class Eldad Regev

not a surprise but .....OMG.....

515 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:38am

Sorry. My #512 was re: #70 Charles

516 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:09am

Oy. I mean #514.

I'm a little upset.

517 Annar  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:47:21am

re: #509 brandeisneocon

The verses (King James Version) Daniel 4:11 and Matthew 4:08 would require a flat or negatively curved Earth. Of course if one wishes to invoke a miracle then no rational explanation is needed.

518 FamHistoryGuy  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:52:52am

re: #471 redc1c4

Maybe like a CBU dispenser? Can be set for single or ripple. Would expect ripple with programmable delay depending on structure type and composition in order to get it to fall straight down.

519 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:55:56am

re: #496 Salamantis

"...is less than the chance that Bridget the Midget can pole-vault to the moon." You have a way with words, Sal! What a hoot.

520 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:37:35am

"When we wish to correct with advantage and to show another that he errs, we must notice from what side he views the matter, for on that side it is usually true, and admit that truth to him, but reveal to him the side on which it is false. He is satisfied with that, for he sees that he was not mistaken and that he only failed to see all sides. Now, no one is offended at not seeing everything; but one does not like to be mistaken, and that perhaps arises from the fact that man naturally cannot see everything, and that naturally he cannot err in the side he looks at, since the perceptions of our senses are always true." --Blaise Pascal

Just a thought.

521 keithgabryelski  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:58:20am

During a sabbatical year in London in 1987, Dr. Johnson read
about Darwinism and noticed that Darwinian ideologues like Richard
Dawkins use deceptive arguments to sell their unsubstantiated
story.


Association Fallacy: Tieing The Theory of Evolution with Athiests. In effect, he is attempting to argue against the non-belief in a god NOT the theory of evolution. Theya re not associated in any way.

Appeal to Ridicule: "darwinism" -- calling it a religion does it make it so.

Bare assertions: deceptive arguments, unsubstatiated story. Evidence is need when you call someone a liar or you would like to dismiss an explanation that is accepted as evidence.


He decided to dedicate the rest of life to unravel this sophisticated fallacy.

Bare assertion: that The Theory of Evolution is a fallacy. Evidence is required for you to make this assertion.


His first book, Darwin on Trial (1991), annoyed the Darwinist
establishment terribly,

Bare Assertion, Association Fallacy: The Theory of Evolution is not "the man" that someone oppresses others. The attempt at association is false and the association is attempting merely to rally troops against an foe (that doesn't exist).


years, serious scientists like Michael Behe from Lehigh University,
William Dembski from Baylor University, and Paul Nelson from the
University of Chicago joined the ranks of the movement.

Bare Assertion: Behe, Dembski, and Nelson are not considered "serious" by the majority of scientists.
That is an assertion, i would refer you to Lehigh University's statement:
[Link: www.lehigh.edu...]


While we respect Prof. Behe's right to express his views, they are his alone and are in no way endorsed by the department. It is our collective position that intelligent design has no basis in science, has not been tested experimentally and should not be regarded as scientific.




first to free [...] from the Darwinist dogma and the materialist philosophy it supports.

Bare Assertion: That the theory of evolution is dogma.
Bare Assertion: That the theory of evolution supports a materialist philosophy
Appeal to Consequences: That the theory of evolution is wrong because it may support a materialist philosophy.


What makes the [Intelligent Design] movement effective is its emphasis on solid scientific evidence.

Bare Assertion.


This non-theological nature of the ID Movement also makes it
inter-religious.

Bare Assertion: ID is directly associated with a theologies because it requires a creator -- a god.
This was the base for dismisal of [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

522 Darius_LaMonica  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:54:16am
That is why Imam Ghazali, the Muslim equivalent of Thomas Aquinas


This guy could not be FURTHER from the truth. The Muslim analogue to Thomas Aquinas was Averroes (Ibn Rushd). Ibn Rushd was a strident opponent of Ghazali and he was thrown out of the "Paradise" (AHEM!) of Muslim Spain as a result.

Thomas Aquinas would roll over in his grave if he heard about this comparison.

523 littleO  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:56:49am

yeah, yeah, yeah, yadda, yadda, yadda yadda ! Lets keep beating this dead horse. Why? Because scientist and followers of the sciece as God groupie's, Must keep the riff-raff, and commoners' in their place. Oh, and they must assure that real faith in a supernatural God is replaced with a nature God. Or, some type of blurry, universe creating entity that when totally understood will let mankind more fully understand evolution. Oh, and lets not forget the importance of an unimpeded flow of government (taxpayer) money into the hands of science facilitiy's, and government sponsored programs. No questions can be tolerated that might lead to the moderation of scientific research and/or withdrawl of such funding. THIS IS A DRIVING IMPERATIVE!

524 Vanceone  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:08:52am

I'm truly disturbed by LGF's recent attempts to equate people who believe that God created them with Muslims. Is this the beginnings of "religion must be Islam must be bad, therefore all religion is bad?" being advanced by LGF?

Look, ID is not science, because it can't be--science has no ability to deal with God. How do you control for an intelligent Diety creating things?

If those who advance science didn't claim that all truth MUST be scientific, I doubt there would be much of an issue. But we are told that evolution, which posits a naturalistic view, is the only "scientific" way things could have happened--and since truth MUST be scientific, then creation is naturalistic. That does deny the existence of a Creator.

The problem is the scientists demand a "scientific" proof for anything to be true. Truth must be scientific, thus the attack on God, since God cannot be shown by science.

Let us look at an example of this: the resurrection of Christ. That's not scientific, because we can't repeat it, test it, etc. With the tools of science, we are incapable of proving whether Christ was resurrected. Indeed, what we could test in a lab shows that dead things do not come back to life. Ergo, science would say Christ wasn't resurrected, since in the lab, we can't resurrect anything.

But if Christ really WAS resurrected, what can science do? Let's assume, for a moment, that Christ was resurrected. That is true, under our hypothetical. Yet science would tend to say it's not true--thus science is wrong. If we insist that only scientific truth is acceptable, then we are now advancing a falsehood. Put bluntly, science is wrong, and anyone who insists on only following science would, therefore, be mislead.

That's what is happening in this world now--the elevation of science uber alles. If truth is not scientific truth, it is not true. Is that not what the "ID is wrong!" bit is all about? Unless we can demonstrate--scientifically demonstrate--the existence of God or a creator, only the naturalistic "God is nonexistent, or at least not necessary" theory of evolution is allowed as true. But God is not capable of being demonstrated scientifically. So, Science as the final arbiter of truth means that science is opposed to God--or at least, ignores God--and thus, everyone is being taught that the truth does not include God.

It's expressed this way: All Truth must be Scientific to be True. Since God is not found in Science, then God is not a scientific Truth. Thus, since all truth must be scientific to be true, God is not capable of being true. That's the reasoning being advanced by the ID deniers.

I personally don't support the idea of intelligent design being taught in science classes. It's not science (indeed, the only thing you can say is that God created life using scientific laws). But the ascent of the idea that all truth must be circumscribed into a scientific whole is truly disturbing. I would instead advocate at least mandating a lesson on how science is incapable of determining all truth, and that truth does not always have to be scientific to be true.

After all, if we take the position the evolutionists take, we must destroy all religion, including Christianity, as not being scientific as it's not capable of being tested in a lab. If truth is only "scientific" then we might as well conclude all religion is a mental disorder and we should eliminate anyone who has strong faith as not being scientific--best to stomp out primitive superstitions, right? And since everyone is only an animal anyway.... no real harm done by killing all those defective specimens. it would improve the species--that's totally scientific!

525 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:16:14am

re: #524 Vanceone

It's expressed this way: All Truth must be Scientific to be True. Since God is not found in Science, then God is not a scientific Truth. Thus, since all truth must be scientific to be true, God is not capable of being true. That's the reasoning being advanced by the ID deniers.

Bullsh*t! Many of the people here who want nothing to do with ID are themselves religious. Catholics, Protestants, Jews- we don't want IDers indoctrinating our kids in the name of "science". Period.

526 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:53:45am

re: #524 Vanceone

I'm truly disturbed by LGF's recent attempts to equate people who believe that God created them with Muslims. Is this the beginnings of "religion must be Islam must be bad, therefore all religion is bad?" being advanced by LGF?

This is complete, unmitigated crap, and it's a blatant distortion of everything I've written on this subject.

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution. Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God. I've said this over and over and over, and still people make these absurd, ridiculous claims.

You should ask yourself why it doesn't bother you that US creationists are joining forces with Islamic creationists.

527 picaro  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:40:46pm

re: #505 Salamantis "unmasked" ?

My, how polemic. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm uncommitted to either side and really have not attended to the topic in some time. I just found it curious that Charles has put such a sudden emphasis on evolution v. ID. I generally read the blog for political issues.

The point is that someone I worked for was committed to one side but saw some problems with the arguments advanced by some of his fellows. This did not change his mind, but rather compelled him to better those arguments. I did not contribute to the paper he was working on, but met his other two associates - who introduced themselves as philosopher (specialty was not specified) and symbolic logician - and heard the comments and discussions, one of which I related above. I'd comment about an IDer too if I had known any. In fact, the prof never referred to the other side as ID. I think that those holding to that view self-styled as 'creation science' at the time.

Being a mathematician, my role in the lab was QC, sampling techniques and statistics. Biologists examined mitochondrial DNA using electrophoresis gel, but I avoided that side of the lab due to the use of mutagens. Didn't want any two-headed children later on. (Don't know whether they were joking about this or not, but I didn't risk it!)

528 tgibson1962  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:55:33pm

re: #517 Annar

The verses (King James Version) Daniel 4:11 and Matthew 4:08 would require a flat or negatively curved Earth. Of course if one wishes to invoke a miracle then no rational explanation is needed.

In context, Daniel 4:11 is preceded by Daniel 4:10 which is:

These are the visions I saw while lying in my bed: I looked, and there before me stood a tree in the middle of the land. Its height was enormous.

In other words, Nebuchadnezzer was dreaming. I don't know about you, but my dreams don't always conform to reality. Daniel is reporting what Nebuchadnezzer said, not endorsing it.

529 vanceone  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:16:42pm

re: #526 Charles

This is complete, unmitigated crap, and it's a blatant distortion of everything I've written on this subject.

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution. Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God. I've said this over and over and over, and still people make these absurd, ridiculous claims.

You should ask yourself why it doesn't bother you that US creationists are joining forces with Islamic creationists.

I said I'm opposed to the teaching of intelligent design as science, indeed it is not. I'll also note that my faith pretty much stays out of the "Creationist" debate; most of those people target my faith as well.

Here's my main issue: I believe things evolved. But what I disagree with is how such evolution happened. The theory of evolution, at least as popularly understood, assigns it to 1) random mutations and 2) natural selection. I disagree with both of those causes, as they leave absolutely no room for any interference by Diety. Isn't the belief in God and the belief in the standard theory of evolution reduced to basically the watchmaker theory--that God set it up and then took off, and we are all a result of pretty much random chance?

I recognize that evolution proponents will admit they have no coherent theory of abiogenesis, and maintain it's a separate debate from the theory of evolution.

Look, I think a lot of the "young earth creationists" are full of total idiocy. I don't want that taught either, and I think it is unfortunate that Islamic types are joining in. But just because a Muslim holds to the view that God created humans doesn't mean that view is wrong.

Is there room for the belief that God selected some of the changes, instead of natural selection? That God put in some of the mutations, instead of random cosmic rays? Or is that view not scientific either, and thus illegitimate?

In essence, ID isn't science, and I don't agree with them theologically. Most of them would be just as happy to ban my faith (Mormon) as science. But I do maintain that God had an active hand in bringing humans to their present form. If that means I'm an "intelligent design freak, soon to be in league with Islamic fundamentalists," then I submit you haven't drawn the distinction clearly. Can you allow for a person to believe that God actively created humans, or must I transfer my faith to a God who did nothing but start the process?

That's why I viewed this as an attack on my faith--not that I agree with the specifics of the ID movement, but because if I deny the concept that God created man (as the theory of evolution, with random mutation and natural selection mandates, as it leaves no room for any interfering by God), then what else do I have to deny?

I suppose my issue is that by attacking the concept of ID (versus the application), you attack the concept of an active God, who is managing things on this planet, in favor of the watchmaker theory of God.

I can accept the concept of a driven evolution--a process driven by someone who made sure to create our fossil fuels, etc. But being forced to conclude that God just didn't check in for 4 billion years on this planet so I won't be linked with Muslim fanatics sticks in my craw.

530 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:43:06pm

re: #529 vanceone

I suppose my issue is that by attacking the concept of ID (versus the application), you attack the concept of an active God, who is managing things on this planet, in favor of the watchmaker theory of God.

The concept of "Intelligent Design" was cynically created to sneak the teaching of creationism into science classes. This is a fact.

It's not science. It's religion. This is also a fact.

You're free to believe anything you like, and no one is attacking your faith.

But it's not me who's linking the teaching of creationism to Muslim fanatics. This is entirely the doing of US creationists. If they hadn't linked themselves to Islamic creationists, these posts would not exist.

If you want to believe I'm attacking your faith, despite numerous clarifications and statements to the contrary, that's your choice.

531 tgibson1962  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:43:53pm

re: #517 Annar

The verses (King James Version) Daniel 4:11 and Matthew 4:08 would require a flat or negatively curved Earth. Of course if one wishes to invoke a miracle then no rational explanation is needed.

Sorry, had to stop and work for a while...

Regarding the Matthew 4:8 passage, I think it's helpful to compare it with the comparative passages in the Synoptics:

Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. (Matt. 4:8)

And the devil took him up and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, (Luke 4:5)

Luke, from what we know, was a native speaker of Koine Greek. The Gospel of Luke & The Acts of the Apostles which were companion volumes, bear this out. From what we know of Matthew, he was a Jew so his native language would have been Hebrew or, more likely, Aramaic. He was writing in a language other than his native tongue, namely Greek. Repetition for emphasis is part of the idiom of Hebrew and Aramaic; that's why you see so many doublets in, say, Proverbs. Matthew's account could just as easily say "the devil took him up high, really high". As it is, the point is not real estate but "showing" the power and glory of the kingdoms of the earth, I believe, not only at that moment but through the ages.

532 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:48:15pm

re: #271 Mich-again

We buried my Father in Law this morning. He lost a long bout with cancer. We were there with him in the hospital room when he finally gave up fighting and asked for the morphine drip to just end it all. The guy never had much use for any organized religion, but he lived a good life and was always a lot of fun to hang out with.

Sorry to hear that. I could have written the same post 5 years ago and reading yours made it seem like yesterday. I knew him for 30 years.

533 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:16:47pm

re: #523 littleO

yeah, yeah, yeah, yadda, yadda, yadda yadda ! Lets keep beating this dead horse. Why? Because scientist and followers of the sciece as God groupie's, Must keep the riff-raff, and commoners' in their place. Oh, and they must assure that real faith in a supernatural God is replaced with a nature God. Or, some type of blurry, universe creating entity that when totally understood will let mankind more fully understand evolution. Oh, and lets not forget the importance of an unimpeded flow of government (taxpayer) money into the hands of science facilitiy's, and government sponsored programs. No questions can be tolerated that might lead to the moderation of scientific research and/or withdrawl of such funding. THIS IS A DRIVING IMPERATIVE!

Sal: The labeling of those who accept evolutionary theory based upon the empirical evidence as "science as God groupies" is not only a shining, sterling example of both psychological projection and turnspeak, it also makes no coherent sense. Science is a methodology, and what people practicing that methodology has been able to discern. In other words, it is a particular process, a way of investigating the world. How something such as this could be gratuitously compared to a deity boggles the mind and fuzzles the bum. If by riff raff and commoners, littleO is referring to those who do not grasp scientific methodology and/or evolutionary theory, it is one of the simplest and easiest things in the world to 'move on up' from such a class; simply read the free material out there, and learn. And yes, I think that the world im particular, and the US (and YahYa's Turkey) in particular would be much better off if more of their citizens comprehended evolutionary mechanisms and principles.

Btw: I LIKE government funding of basic scientific research. Worldwide, a lot of us are alive, and many more of us have much easier lives, as a direct result of what such research has yielded. I do not think that nearly as many people have derived nearly as many tangible benefits from the funds they have shoveled into the gaping maws of Elmer Gantry type televangelists over the years.

What have Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Oral Roberts, Jimmy Swaggart, Robert Tilton, and Benny Hinn done for the world? And what have medical research into medicines and vaccinations, and agricultural research into high-yield, hardy, and pest-resistant crops done for the world?

534 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:24:28pm

re: #527 picaro

"unmasked" ?

My, how polemic. Don't put words in my mouth. I'm uncommitted to either side and really have not attended to the topic in some time. I just found it curious that Charles has put such a sudden emphasis on evolution v. ID. I generally read the blog for political issues.

The point is that someone I worked for was committed to one side but saw some problems with the arguments advanced by some of his fellows. This did not change his mind, but rather compelled him to better those arguments. I did not contribute to the paper he was working on, but met his other two associates - who introduced themselves as philosopher (specialty was not specified) and symbolic logician - and heard the comments and discussions, one of which I related above. I'd comment about an IDer too if I had known any. In fact, the prof never referred to the other side as ID. I think that those holding to that view self-styled as 'creation science' at the time.

Being a mathematician, my role in the lab was QC, sampling techniques and statistics. Biologists examined mitochondrial DNA using electrophoresis gel, but I avoided that side of the lab due to the use of mutagens. Didn't want any two-headed children later on. (Don't know whether they were joking about this or not, but I didn't risk it!)

Sal: I only drew out the logical ramifications of the words you put in your own mouth. Own them; they're yours. And what can be logically concluded from an analysis of them is far from complimentary to your honesty or credibility.

If you were indeed cognizant of scientific methodology you never would have definitionally misused simple scientific terms, and if you were indeed neutral, you would not have used ID boilerplate appelations. Simple facts.

535 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:36:35pm

re: #524 Vanceone

I'm truly disturbed by LGF's recent attempts to equate people who believe that God created them with Muslims. Is this the beginnings of "religion must be Islam must be bad, therefore all religion is bad?" being advanced by LGF?

Sal: LGF has done no such thing; Charles has pointed out the abundantly existent connections between Islamic creationists, including but not limited to Harun Yahya, and the Disco Institute.
People can believe that a deity lit the Big bang quantum fluctuation fuse, or even kick-started the primordial lifespark, and still embrace evolutionary theory as the sound and valid science that it in fact is. What does NOT make sense is for people to insist, in the face of vast and massive geological evidence, that the earth is 6000 years old, or to insist, in the face of overwhelming genetic and paleontological evidence, that humans and great apes lacked common ancestors. They might as well be insisting that the earth is flat, and that the sun circles it.

Look, ID is not science, because it can't be--science has no ability to deal with God. How do you control for an intelligent Diety creating things?

If those who advance science didn't claim that all truth MUST be scientific, I doubt there would be much of an issue. But we are told that evolution, which posits a naturalistic view, is the only "scientific" way things could have happened--and since truth MUST be scientific, then creation is naturalistic. That does deny the existence of a Creator.

The problem is the scientists demand a "scientific" proof for anything to be true. Truth must be scientific, thus the attack on God, since God cannot be shown by science.

Sal: Truth is supported by empirical evidence; belief is not. Science and religion are two different realms; stop whining because religion cannot dominate them both. And please stop confusing issues by not specifying whether you are referring to cosmological or biological creation; these two distinct issues seem to be repeatedly conflated by creationists of both stripes.

to be continued...

536 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:38:37pm

re: #524 Vanceone

I'm truly disturbed by LGF's recent attempts to equate people who believe that God created them with Muslims. Is this the beginnings of "religion must be Islam must be bad, therefore all religion is bad?" being advanced by LGF?

Sal: LGF has done no such thing; Charles has pointed out the abundantly existent connections between Islamic creationists, including but not limited to Harun Yahya, and the Disco Institute.
People can believe that a deity lit the Big bang quantum fluctuation fuse, or even kick-started the primordial lifespark, and still embrace evolutionary theory as the sound and valid science that it in fact is. What does NOT make sense is for people to insist, in the face of vast and massive geological evidence, that the earth is 6000 years old, or to insist, in the face of overwhelming genetic and paleontological evidence, that humans and great apes lacked common ancestors. They might as well be insisting that the earth is flat, and that the sun circles it.

Look, ID is not science, because it can't be--science has no ability to deal with God. How do you control for an intelligent Diety creating things?

If those who advance science didn't claim that all truth MUST be scientific, I doubt there would be much of an issue. But we are told that evolution, which posits a naturalistic view, is the only "scientific" way things could have happened--and since truth MUST be scientific, then creation is naturalistic. That does deny the existence of a Creator.

The problem is the scientists demand a "scientific" proof for anything to be true. Truth must be scientific, thus the attack on God, since God cannot be shown by science.

Sal: Truth is supported by empirical evidence; belief is not. Science and religion are two different realms; stop whining because religion cannot dominate them both. And please stop confusing issues by not specifying whether you are referring to cosmological or biological creation; these two distinct issues seem to be repeatedly conflated by creationists of both stripes.

to be continued...

Sorry for the repost; had to reformat

537 vanceone  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:52:06pm

re: #530 Charles

The concept of "Intelligent Design" was cynically created to sneak the teaching of creationism into science classes. This is a fact.

It's not science. It's religion. This is also a fact.

You're free to believe anything you like, and no one is attacking your faith.

But it's not me who's linking the teaching of creationism to Muslim fanatics. This is entirely the doing of US creationists. If they hadn't linked themselves to Islamic creationists, these posts would not exist.

If you want to believe I'm attacking your faith, despite numerous clarifications and statements to the contrary, that's your choice.

I've said that creationism isn't science; indeed it cannot be. But then I ask, why can science make statements about religion, then? I mentioned in my original post that there is a tendency to make truth be subject to scientific proof. I.e. all truth must be scientific, else it's not true.

Look, you are saying that evolution does not foreclose the possibility of God. Yet, in many many places, those who teach evolution also attack the concept of religion. It's not a surprise that some people want to push back.

When science gets out of the business of religion, then perhaps religion will not criticize science.

For example, what is man? Is he an animal, or something more? Evolution theories will answer one way (he's nothing more than an animal, and if you say otherwise, prove it scientifically), and many religions will answer another.

I love science, in fact, I love astronomy and many other fields. I just object to the notion that a belief in a Creator is somehow bad. I have nothing to do with Behe, the Discovery Institute, etc. I'm sorry that some form of Islamic connections have jumped into them, but it's not my deal.

However, in the process of tearing them down, you seem to be tearing down any belief in intelligent design at all.

Yeah, Intelligent design is religion--but the origin of the species is an area of equal import to both science and faith. It goes directly to the question of what and who mankind is. The scientific evolution view is that man is an animal, nothing more, and nothing very much special. He's just an ape that is slightly more advanced. This worldview is what is being taught as science and therefore, correct and not challengable. Is it right to try to go against that view? I wouldn't do what the ID people do, but I don't think that letting the view of man as an animal, nothing special, is a good thing to be taught as a scientific truth, with no objections permitted.

I personally would hope that you would agree that a pure science view is also distasteful.

I hope that makes sense.

538 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:56:49pm

re: #524 Vanceone

Let us look at an example of this: the resurrection of Christ. That's not scientific, because we can't repeat it, test it, etc. With the tools of science, we are incapable of proving whether Christ was resurrected. Indeed, what we could test in a lab shows that dead things do not come back to life. Ergo, science would say Christ wasn't resurrected, since in the lab, we can't resurrect anything.

But if Christ really WAS resurrected, what can science do? Let's assume, for a moment, that Christ was resurrected. That is true, under our hypothetical. Yet science would tend to say it's not true--thus science is wrong. If we insist that only scientific truth is acceptable, then we are now advancing a falsehood. Put bluntly, science is wrong, and anyone who insists on only following science would, therefore, be mislead.

Sal: I fail to see how science could be wrong or at fault for not accepting a religious assumption as an empirical fact or an operational premise. If religion and science both remain in their own realms, where their own rules apply, there is no problem between religion and science. The conflicts arise when either realm endeavors to encroach upon the other one's territory, and all the recent attempts that I have seen to do so have come from religion's side. Such efforts are doomed to fail. Empirical evidence, which does not exist in the realm of belief, is dispositive in the realm of knowledge. The realm of the empirically testable is the realm of knowledge, and of science. And no evidence is profferred for religious assertions, nor can it be, nor can religious contentions be tested. If they could be tested, or if there could be empirical evidence presented to support them, they would not belong in the realm of belief, but in the realm of knowledge.

That's what is happening in this world now--the elevation of science uber alles. If truth is not scientific truth, it is not true. Is that not what the "ID is wrong!" bit is all about? Unless we can demonstrate--scientifically demonstrate--the existence of God or a creator, only the naturalistic "God is nonexistent, or at least not necessary" theory of evolution is allowed as true. But God is not capable of being demonstrated scientifically. So, Science as the final arbiter of truth means that science is opposed to God--or at least, ignores God--and thus, everyone is being taught that the truth does not include God.

Sal: Science has nothing to say one way or another concerning the existence or nonexistence of deities; your gripe is that science refuses to affirm their existence. Well, that's not science's job:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

to be continued...

539 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:21:02pm

re: #524 Vanceone

It's expressed this way: All Truth must be Scientific to be True. Since God is not found in Science, then God is not a scientific Truth. Thus, since all truth must be scientific to be true, God is not capable of being true. That's the reasoning being advanced by the ID deniers.

Sal: First, I note and reject your attempted backhand "ID deniers" slur, as if to equate those who accept empirical evidence with those who deny the Holocaust (another Darwin=Hitler rimshot).

To clean up your intentionally equivocating pseudosyllogism, God is not capable of being KNOWN, in the evidentiary, scientific sense, but requires belief; deity must be accepted, or not, on faith. And there are facts in science, but no transcendent capital T Truths; all scientific knowledge is statistical, probable and provisional. To claim apodictic certainty would be to foreclose all possibility for future data to affect a scientific pronouncement, and this alternative is rejected in principle. Contentions can be proven to be absolutely false in science (a fossilized human skeleton found in a fossilized Tyrannosaurus gut would cause wholesale abandonment of much of evolutionary theory), but they cannot be proven to be absolutely true. Only religions, which do not have to deal with evidence or the possibility of more of it in the future, can make absolute (dogmatic) claims.

I personally don't support the idea of intelligent design being taught in science classes. It's not science (indeed, the only thing you can say is that God created life using scientific laws). But the ascent of the idea that all truth must be circumscribed into a scientific whole is truly disturbing. I would instead advocate at least mandating a lesson on how science is incapable of determining all truth, and that truth does not always have to be scientific to be true.

Sal: The first statement (science is incapable of determining all truth) is indeed itself a true statement, for empirical truth is inexhaustible; there is always something else that can be found out about anything, since it can be investigated from an infinite nomber of spatiotemporal perspectives by a vast multiplicity of technological investigative means. The second statement (truth does not have to be scientific to be true), however, while true overall, is untrue in the empirical realm. The presence or absence of one person's love for another is a subjective, private matter and not amenable to scientific determination. But the moment that something is intersubjective, i.e., not a 'within' matter, but a 'between' matter, something that one person can point to and another person can see, it becomes observable, and empirically investigable.

After all, if we take the position the evolutionists take, we must destroy all religion, including Christianity, as not being scientific as it's not capable of being tested in a lab. If truth is only "scientific" then we might as well conclude all religion is a mental disorder and we should eliminate anyone who has strong faith as not being scientific--best to stomp out primitive superstitions, right? And since everyone is only an animal anyway.... no real harm done by killing all those defective specimens. it would improve the species--that's totally scientific!

Sal: Now you're just engaging in skark-jumping hyperbole. The very real distinctions between the realm of knowledge and the realm of belief cannot by any stretch of the rational imagination be said to entail or even imply, that one or the other must be destroyed, or that those who do not adhere to one exclusively, but embrace both (as a billion+ Catholics do when they embrace both God's presence and the empirical soundness and validity of evolutionary theory) must be euthanized. That's just raving crazy talk, and, I strongly suspect, intended to sway emotions rather than to convince intellection.

540 Vanceone  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:24:25pm

Salamantis: I agree that science should stay in it's own playpen. Problem: it's not. I'm concerned with what is true, not with what is scientific. It's true that some bacteria you could get from not washing your hands will make you sick. That's scientific.

It's true that cannibalism is almost always wrong. Why? That's not a scientific answer--objectively speaking, killing and eating people could be the most rational method of obtaining protein. Moral truths are not scientific. Yet we see scientists who barge in, offering "group dynamic studies" and such to show that morality is an evolved trait--the conclusion being morality is not from God, but a feature of our DNA somehow. We see this in recent claims that charity is an evolved trait. Faith and religion itself is claimed to be relics of an evolutionary background!

It's a systematic attempt to prove that all human behavior is due to only one thing: your genetic code, as applied to circumstances. Indeed, we are all animals, and nothing more.

This is totally intruding into the domain of faith. Can you not see that?

541 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:33:29pm

re: #529 vanceone

I said I'm opposed to the teaching of intelligent design as science, indeed it is not. I'll also note that my faith pretty much stays out of the "Creationist" debate; most of those people target my faith as well.

Here's my main issue: I believe things evolved. But what I disagree with is how such evolution happened. The theory of evolution, at least as popularly understood, assigns it to 1) random mutations and 2) natural selection. I disagree with both of those causes, as they leave absolutely no room for any interference by Diety. Isn't the belief in God and the belief in the standard theory of evolution reduced to basically the watchmaker theory--that God set it up and then took off, and we are all a result of pretty much random chance?

Sal: The mutations are random, but environmental selection is nonrandom. Science neither accepts nor denies a transcendent Watchmaker, if what that watchmaker did was to kick-start the Big Bang and the lifespark and allow Nature to take its course. But science, being an investigation of Nature, cannot run around assuming supernatural Causes for empirically observed phenomena without miring itself in irretrievable self-contradiction, and rendering itself useless, for if scientists can always resort to 'and here God intervened' when the investigatory going gets tough, they're vastly less likely to be able to solve the harder problems, for they are vastly less likely to persevere and perdure through to solutions. If supernatural Causes had been an option for scientists investigating the die-off of the Bald Eagle, we would most likely have lost our national symbol, for it took a lot of hard, painstaking work to discover that DDT absorbed through eaten animals, birds and fish that themselves had eaten sprayed insects was the cause of the devastating shell-thinning of Bald Eagle eggs. They might well have simply threw up their hands instead, and accepted it as God's Will.

to be continued...

542 Vanceone  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:35:23pm

Sal, I also disagree that religions do not have to deal with evidence. Indeed, one of my hobbies IS dealing in religious evidence.

For instance, the evidence for God is based on, roughly, at least three things. First is physical. That's where the ID people and evolutionists are fiercely fighting--is there evidence of an orderly design. I contend there is, you contend there isn't. Ultimately, it's an interpretive matter.

Second is historical evidence: those who have had encounters with Deity in the past. That's the Bible, for the Judeo-Christian tradition. Without opening up another can of worms, I would say that I count this stronger than most, as I don't rely wholly on the Bible. The question then becomes disproving certain documents, as opposed to waving it off as traditions of a primitive people.

Third, and ultimately the only real proof, is personal experience with Deity. Regardless of what you may think about, say, Moses, you cannot deny he believed he had an encounter with Deity. Personal encounters are proof for each person--and does not that trump 'scientific' interpretations? Once you have that encounter, you realize that the "no God science" view is simply incomplete as far as truth. It's okay, as far as it goes, but is simply wrong in spots.

543 Vanceone  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:46:27pm

Sal: there's a difference between "throwing up your hands and assuming supernatural causes" and "There must not ever be a supernatural cause, ever, it is not possible."

You are explicitly putting Science as opposed to an active God. Thus, you are putting science in conflict to religion, which (usually) posits a God who intervenes.

Under your view, miracles never can happen. There must always be a natural explanation. Why have faith, if there is no God who can do anything? Is there room for a scientist to believe and rely on the fact that God is alive?

You are saying, in essence, that belief is fine, as long as it does not require action --because anything outward of just a mental assertion of belief is moved into "natural causes." Thus, it is illogical to believe in miracles, is it not? Either they don't happen, or they are just natural phenomenon misunderstood--either way, no God could do them. For that wouldn't be "scientific." And EVERYTHING must be "scientific;" else we are no better than those hopeless people who worshiped the sun, right? Because if we allow any chance for a supernatural event, then we "betray science."

Ergo, you accept the theory of dead God at best; one who can do nothing. Your view of Science does not allow a living God--one able to do His own work.

How is not that a religious position, dressed up as "science?"

544 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:47:38pm

re: #529 vanceone

I recognize that evolution proponents will admit they have no coherent theory of abiogenesis, and maintain it's a separate debate from the theory of evolution.

Look, I think a lot of the "young earth creationists" are full of total idiocy. I don't want that taught either, and I think it is unfortunate that Islamic types are joining in. But just because a Muslim holds to the view that God created humans doesn't mean that view is wrong.

Is there room for the belief that God selected some of the changes, instead of natural selection? That God put in some of the mutations, instead of random cosmic rays? Or is that view not scientific either, and thus illegitimate?

Sal: Well, it gets down to specifics; precisely WHICH changes? And where is the evidence of supernatural causation for them?

In essence, ID isn't science, and I don't agree with them theologically. Most of them would be just as happy to ban my faith (Mormon) as science. But I do maintain that God had an active hand in bringing humans to their present form. If that means I'm an "intelligent design freak, soon to be in league with Islamic fundamentalists," then I submit you haven't drawn the distinction clearly. Can you allow for a person to believe that God actively created humans, or must I transfer my faith to a God who did nothing but start the process?

Sal: Do you accept the massive and overwhelming genetic evidence that humans and great apes diverged from common ancestors? The artifactual retroviral DNA evidence is as conclusive as science gets.

That's why I viewed this as an attack on my faith--not that I agree with the specifics of the ID movement, but because if I deny the concept that God created man (as the theory of evolution, with random mutation and natural selection mandates, as it leaves no room for any interfering by God), then what else do I have to deny?

Sal: Perhaps your God is too small. Perhaps you're unable to wrap your mind around a Deity who might be able to trigger a Big Bang, knowing and intending precisely how everything would work out, or even a lesser God, who in addition to triggering a Big bang, would also kickstart a lifespark cell, knowing in advance how its interrelation with its environment would play out.

I suppose my issue is that by attacking the concept of ID (versus the application), you attack the concept of an active God, who is managing things on this planet, in favor of the watchmaker theory of God.

I can accept the concept of a driven evolution--a process driven by someone who made sure to create our fossil fuels, etc. But being forced to conclude that God just didn't check in for 4 billion years on this planet so I won't be linked with Muslim fanatics sticks in my craw.

Sal: One has, if one is to remain in good faith with oneself, to follow the empirical evidence where it leads, even if it leads one to a cognitively dissonant place. Science does not, and cannot, deny the possibility of supernatural interventionism; in fact, to even address the contention would be to illegitimately venture outside its realm. But what it can do, and does do, is to, by showing how things can have naturally happened, inadvertently highlight the fact that such a supernatural interventionism is not an empirical necessity for things to empirically be as they are. Thus, whether or not you accept such a supernatural interventionism must remain within the realm of religious belief, and cannot claim the cachet of scientific knowledge.

545 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:55:02pm

re: #542 Vanceone

Ultimately, it's an interpretive matter.

Then, by YOUR definition, it is not EVIDENCE, but INTREPRETATION, Vance. That puts it squarely in the realm of belief, and you are free to believe as you choose.
"He hath but to deliver this clear message. Whoso desireth, let him turn aside, and whoso desireth let him choose the path to his Lord."

disproving certain documents,


Disproving a DOCUMENT? Do you mean proving intentional FORGERY? Or 'proving' that the assertions/writings OF the document are 'untrue'?
The first case can be scientific, repeatable, NOT RESTING on consensus. The second case rests on consensus and belief, Vance.

...is personal experience with Deity

Yes, it is, but such 'proof', available as it is to only the individual believer who HAD that experience, is 'proof' ONLY TO THE SUBJECT OF that experience, hence it is SUBJECTIVE 'proof' and not objective, repeatable scientific proof.

546 Annar  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:56:04pm

re: #531 tgibson1962

Just to let you know that I read your comments and perhaps this topic will reoccur at some future point in a non dead thread.

547 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:01:13pm
I suppose my issue is that by attacking the concept of ID (versus the application), you attack the concept of an active God, who is managing things on this planet, in favor of the watchmaker theory of God.

Not at all, Sir.
The reality of progressive revelation, God manifesting Itself through different humans through the ages is an accepted historical FACT, and shows active, ongoing (at 1,000 year intervals) intervention by an All-Knowing, All-Loving Creator.

Joseph Smith was promised that, if he lived a few more years, He would see the Holy One, but Smith was lynched a few years short of May 22, 1844, and missed seeing in this world, the Point of all human devotion.

After Him, of course, came The Lord of Hosts from 1853 to 1892 (Micah 7:15) and His coming again reinforces and confirms progressive revelation.

548 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:07:27pm
Sal: there's a difference between "throwing up your hands and assuming supernatural causes" and "There must not ever be a supernatural cause, ever, it is not possible."


This distinction asserts only that there is a difference between assuming "God, the supernatural creator, is personally involved in EVERY subatomic, atomic, molecular, chemical, cellular, histological and systemic action and process"
and
"allowing a supernatural Creator overall, somewhere, Who allows US to investigate His creation and that creation's ascertainable, natural, CREATED laws"

That's all. There is a distinction.

549 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:08:56pm

re: #537 vanceone

I've said that creationism isn't science; indeed it cannot be. But then I ask, why can science make statements about religion, then? I mentioned in my original post that there is a tendency to make truth be subject to scientific proof. I.e. all truth must be scientific, else it's not true.

Look, you are saying that evolution does not foreclose the possibility of God. Yet, in many many places, those who teach evolution also attack the concept of religion. It's not a surprise that some people want to push back.

When science gets out of the business of religion, then perhaps religion will not criticize science.

Sal: Science is not getting into the business of religion so much as it is kicking religion out of its own backyard, which some religionists have tried to claim for themselves, much as the Muslims have attempted to claim all of Spain as Al-Andalus. The age of the earth is an empirically determinable matter. The common ancestry of all life, and more recent common ancestry of genetically closer species, such as humans and great apes, are empirically determinable matters. When religion makes empirically falsifiable claims concerning such matters, it has opened itself up to scientific refutation by illegitimately entering a different realm and futilely endeavoring to dictate to it it's own business.

For example, what is man? Is he an animal, or something more? Evolution theories will answer one way (he's nothing more than an animal, and if you say otherwise, prove it scientifically), and many religions will answer another.

Scientifically, humans are BOTH animals and 'something more'; they are animals that have cortically evolved to the point where the quotient of the number of brain neurons and the number of synaptic and axonal interconnections has breached the Godelian threshhold, thus permitting recursive self-reference - what we know as self-conscious awareness. In other words, a difference in degree became so pronounced that it became a difference in essence, and a new, exclusively human, property or characteristic emerged.

I love science, in fact, I love astronomy and many other fields. I just object to the notion that a belief in a Creator is somehow bad. I have nothing to do with Behe, the Discovery Institute, etc. I'm sorry that some form of Islamic connections have jumped into them, but it's not my deal.

However, in the process of tearing them down, you seem to be tearing down any belief in intelligent design at all.

Sal: What is being asserted is not that cosmological, or even biological, deific triggering cannot be religiously believed; just that they cannot be empirically, scientifically known. And most certainly, they shopuld not be taught in public high school science class.

Yeah, Intelligent design is religion--but the origin of the species is an area of equal import to both science and faith. It goes directly to the question of what and who mankind is. The scientific evolution view is that man is an animal, nothing more, and nothing very much special. He's just an ape that is slightly more advanced. This worldview is what is being taught as science and therefore, correct and not challengable. Is it right to try to go against that view? I wouldn't do what the ID people do, but I don't think that letting the view of man as an animal, nothing special, is a good thing to be taught as a scientific truth, with no objections permitted.

I personally would hope that you would agree that a pure science view is also distasteful.

I hope that makes sense.

Sal: I must disagree most strenuously here; I think that what we have evolved into is MOST special; a part of the universe that can perceive and conceive of the whole is a quite rare and wondrous thing. Very little of the matter/energy in the Universe gets to participate in such beings, and the fact that we are able to so participate is something to be cherished and treasured.

550 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:14:36pm
Sal: I must disagree most strenuously here; I think that what we have evolved into is MOST special; a part of the universe that can perceive and conceive of the whole is a quite rare and wondrous thing.

I second this, Vance!
We are created in the image of the All-Knowing, All-Loving.
We humans alone have the self-conscious ability to Know and to Love.
We humans, out of all terrestrial creation, bear the ability to respond to our world, and hence bear an awesome response ability.

Humans, in the image of God.

VERY SPECIAL! :D

551 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:17:14pm

re: #540 Vanceone

Salamantis: I agree that science should stay in it's own playpen. Problem: it's not. I'm concerned with what is true, not with what is scientific. It's true that some bacteria you could get from not washing your hands will make you sick. That's scientific.

It's true that cannibalism is almost always wrong. Why? That's not a scientific answer--objectively speaking, killing and eating people could be the most rational method of obtaining protein. Moral truths are not scientific. Yet we see scientists who barge in, offering "group dynamic studies" and such to show that morality is an evolved trait--the conclusion being morality is not from God, but a feature of our DNA somehow. We see this in recent claims that charity is an evolved trait. Faith and religion itself is claimed to be relics of an evolutionary background!

Sal: Actually, morality, or what is the good, although embraced in differing forms by differing faiths, is not at root either scientific or religious, but philosophical (the discipline of ethics). BTW; what is the beautiful is also a philosophical discipline known as aesthetics.

It's a systematic attempt to prove that all human behavior is due to only one thing: your genetic code, as applied to circumstances. Indeed, we are all animals, and nothing more.

This is totally intruding into the domain of faith. Can you not see that?

Sal: Actually, I can't see that, for the simple reason that the human difference, self-conscious awareness, allows us not to be constrained by a crude aggregate of memory, environment and instinct, but to mentally step back, reflect on the consequences of choosing various alternatives, and deciding what 'I' want, and what 'I' believe is best for 'me' and those for whom 'I' care. This is why animals, like natural events such as hurricanes and earthquakes, are incapable of either good nor evil, while humans are capable of both - which renders the categories of good and evil human rather than cosmic.

552 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:20:48pm

re: #540 Vanceone

Salamantis: I agree that science should stay in it's own playpen. Problem: it's not. I'm concerned with what is true, not with what is scientific. It's true that some bacteria you could get from not washing your hands will make you sick. That's scientific.

It's true that cannibalism is almost always wrong. Why? That's not a scientific answer--objectively speaking, killing and eating people could be the most rational method of obtaining protein. Moral truths are not scientific. Yet we see scientists who barge in, offering "group dynamic studies" and such to show that morality is an evolved trait--the conclusion being morality is not from God, but a feature of our DNA somehow. We see this in recent claims that charity is an evolved trait. Faith and religion itself is claimed to be relics of an evolutionary background!

Sal: Actually, morality, or what is the good, although embraced in differing forms by differing faiths, is not at root either scientific or religious, but philosophical (the discipline of ethics). BTW; what is the beautiful is also a philosophical discipline known as aesthetics.

It's a systematic attempt to prove that all human behavior is due to only one thing: your genetic code, as applied to circumstances. Indeed, we are all animals, and nothing more.

This is totally intruding into the domain of faith. Can you not see that?

Sal: Actually, I can't see that, for the simple reason that the human difference, self-conscious awareness, allows us not to be constrained by a crude aggregate of memory, environment and instinct, but to mentally step back, reflect on the consequences of choosing various alternatives, and deciding what 'I' want, and what 'I' believe is best for 'me' and those for whom 'I' care. This is why animals, like natural events such as hurricanes and earthquakes, are incapable of either good nor evil, while humans are capable of both - which renders the categories of good and evil human rather than cosmic.

With new and improved formatting!

553 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:25:20pm

re: #543 Vanceone

Why have faith, if there is no God who can do anything?

If I may interject a suggestion:

There is no reason one cannot have such faith, but the real question is when God has acted and when someone of faith has decided He has acted.

The latter is a personal interpretation, yet you say that simply because someone declares his faith, his interpretation must be correct. The fact that many do so makes it by itself no more valid than the millions who say, and fervently believe, that they have been abducted by aliens.

The discussion here is about issues like evolution and the origins of life and yet there are many millions of people of faith who believe that what we see is how God designed it to be, and gave us the capability to try to understand it.

554 littleO  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:27:33pm

re: 533 Salamantis:
What I was saying, and have been saying, is that science has given us great advances. You have pointed out some of them.
However, as for evolution 'theory' science has only shown its' limits.
I, for one have a greater interest, and believe there is greater witness in Jesus Christ. In the case of Our Lord there are those who actually witnessed His appearance after His ressurection , and then personally watched as He ascended into Heaven.Later, in some cases, these same witnesses died in martyrdom, alone, as they evangelized to what they saw. There are not examples in the case of His Apostles, even one, retracting from their position.
The cumulative answer of too many scientist and evolutional theorist is miracles don't happen! Miracles can't happen! Therefore, any teaching of any such hog-wash is damaging to the world as a whole! And needs to be crushed out from the heart of education. Crushed out from the beliefs of all mankind!

As for those I might feel an infinity for, or listen to, or, read, I would list first the Gospels. Then, one can gain from reading the writings of the Church Fathers, and the Church's Saints. Also, there is gain to be had from the Cathecism of the Catholic Church. None of these sources threaten to alienate your right to believe in whatever you choose to believe in.

555 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:29:21pm

re: #554 littleO

Of course- the Catholic Church accepts evolution.....

556 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:30:32pm

re: #555 Sharmuta

Of course- the Catholic Church accepts evolution.....

With a sprinkling of ID thrown in...

557 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:31:31pm

re: #542 Vanceone

Sal, I also disagree that religions do not have to deal with evidence. Indeed, one of my hobbies IS dealing in religious evidence.

For instance, the evidence for God is based on, roughly, at least three things. First is physical. That's where the ID people and evolutionists are fiercely fighting--is there evidence of an orderly design. I contend there is, you contend there isn't. Ultimately, it's an interpretive matter.

Sal: No, it's not interpretive, it's empirical. If it can be demonstrated that the phenomenon in question could have evolved in the absence of supernatural intervention, then intentionally ordered design cannot be assumed. However, there is indeed some order to the design of things, simply due to the massively multiple iterations of nonrandom environmental selection of mutational alternatives.

Second is historical evidence: those who have had encounters with Deity in the past. That's the Bible, for the Judeo-Christian tradition. Without opening up another can of worms, I would say that I count this stronger than most, as I don't rely wholly on the Bible. The question then becomes disproving certain documents, as opposed to waving it off as traditions of a primitive people.

Sal: Anecotal evidence is not scientifically admissable; especially that gleaned from oft-rewritten and retranslated texts, the original authors of whom, in the vast majority of cases, were not even alive to witness the events they describe. Plus, which ancient scripture are we to accept as gospel truth? There are many of them, and to say that they substantially disagree is an understatement of enormous proportions. What qualifies one or a few, and disqualifies the others?

Third, and ultimately the only real proof, is personal experience with Deity. Regardless of what you may think about, say, Moses, you cannot deny he believed he had an encounter with Deity. Personal encounters are proof for each person--and does not that trump 'scientific' interpretations? Once you have that encounter, you realize that the "no God science" view is simply incomplete as far as truth. It's okay, as far as it goes, but is simply wrong in spots.

Sal: Many people from many religious traditions have had experiences of the numinous, and their experiences contradict each other as much as differing religious texts do. They can be acknowledged as reasons for the religious faith of those who have experienced them, but they cannot be accepted as scientific evidence.

558 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:33:36pm

The paragraph beginning with Second in post #557 is vanceone's, not mine.

559 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:34:22pm

re: #558 Salamantis

Still working on those quote buttons eh?...:)

560 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:47:26pm

re: #556 Naso Tang

With a sprinkling of ID thrown in...

No- the Church rejects ID.

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

[Link: www.news.com.au...]

561 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:25pm

re: #543 Vanceone

Sal: there's a difference between "throwing up your hands and assuming supernatural causes" and "There must not ever be a supernatural cause, ever, it is not possible."

You are explicitly putting Science as opposed to an active God. Thus, you are putting science in conflict to religion, which (usually) posits a God who intervenes.

Under your view, miracles never can happen. There must always be a natural explanation. Why have faith, if there is no God who can do anything? Is there room for a scientist to believe and rely on the fact that God is alive?

You are saying, in essence, that belief is fine, as long as it does not require action --because anything outward of just a mental assertion of belief is moved into "natural causes." Thus, it is illogical to believe in miracles, is it not? Either they don't happen, or they are just natural phenomenon misunderstood--either way, no God could do them. For that wouldn't be "scientific." And EVERYTHING must be "scientific;" else we are no better than those hopeless people who worshiped the sun, right? Because if we allow any chance for a supernatural event, then we "betray science."

Ergo, you accept the theory of dead God at best; one who can do nothing. Your view of Science does not allow a living God--one able to do His own work.

How is not that a religious position, dressed up as "science?"

Sal: No, you are explicitly saying that unless a God goes around constantly zapping empirical differences into the world, that the God is unworthy of your belief. There are many great scientists who believe in God; Francis Collins, the fellow who developed the method used to decode the human genome, is one. But he knows to not intrude his theistic belief inside the laboratory, much as he knows not to preach evolutionary theory, which he also subscribes to, from the pulpit of his church. Not only are the realms separate, but people can separate them, and still retain both. To separate them and to acknowledge and hold each in its proper place is not to deny either. One cannot assume miracles, that is, deific interventionism into the processes of the phenomenon that one is endeavoring to investigate, when doing science, and expect to be successful at it. Neither can make religious assertions contrary to empirical evidence and expect them to stand. Nor can one make legitimate or credible scientific pronouncements as to the presence or absence of the transcendent, supernatural, or metaphysical.

But, of course, that's what the ID people want to do, isn't it; mix these realms up so they can manufacture a conflict, and morph every discussion of the presence vs. the absence of empirical evidence for or against the various positions of creationism (religion) and evolutionary theory (science) into a discussion of Good Old God vs. Bad Old Atheists, so they can win votes from pious legislators that allow them to insert their sectarian religious dogmas into public high school science classes, and sell their PR propaganda publications to school districts for the express purpose of doing so, until lawsuits are filed, trials are held, and courts forbid them from so violating the US Constitution, at great financial costs to the school district involved - costs that the ID people do not share, as they make money and publicity off the whole enterprise.

562 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:00:32pm
In the case of Our Lord there are those who actually witnessed His appearance after His resurrection , and then personally watched as He ascended into Heaven.

Aside from the distinction, 'ascended into Heaven' equal/not-equal 'floated up into the sky', the whole thrust of your argument is that you want His resurrection to have been physical, materialistic, PROVABLE 'resurrection', but THAT REQUIRES NO FAITH AT ALL, LittleO.

That Jesus was dead accords with science, with reason. That 'the righteousness that is Christ', crucified and extinguished in the hearts of the believers for 3 days, WAS RESURRECTED and lifted the believers into the Heaven of nearness to our Lord, IS A MATTER OF FAITH, and requires belief.

Science requires no belief. Belief is good, but it is not required in science. And yes, the scientific investigation of belief IS possible, and laudable.

563 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:01:36pm

re: #561 Salamantis

Exactly. See #548, above.

564 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:32pm

Vance,

One cannot assume miracles, that is, deific interventionism into the processes of the phenomenon that one is endeavoring to investigate, when doing science, and expect to be successful at it.


To amplify, IF WE WERE TO accept 'Divine Intervention' as a valid explanation for even ONE instance, anywhere, we'd be obliged to accept 'Divine Intervention' at any time, any where, in any investigation and any process.

That makes 'Divine Intervention' an explicitly WORTHLESS explanation, because we cannot guess or anticipate or project when and under what circumstances 'Divine Intervention' will next occur, BECAUSE YOU/WE have placed it ABOVE THE NECESSITY of adherence to natural laws.

It is precisely this untestable, unforeseeable characteristic of 'miracles' that makes them USELESS in investigating Reality.

565 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:54pm

re: #554 littleO

re: 533 Salamantis:
What I was saying, and have been saying, is that science has given us great advances. You have pointed out some of them.
However, as for evolution 'theory' science has only shown its' limits.

Sal: Evolutionary theory is one of the solidest theories in all of science, and the word 'theory' in scientific parlance, means something very solid to begin with, unlike the connotation of the word in general parlance. Of course it has limits, but the changes of life over time reside as squarely within them as does the life cycle of a star reside squarely outside them.

I, for one have a greater interest, and believe there is greater witness in Jesus Christ. In the case of Our Lord there are those who actually witnessed His appearance after His ressurection , and then personally watched as He ascended into Heaven.Later, in some cases, these same witnesses died in martyrdom, alone, as they evangelized to what they saw. There are not examples in the case of His Apostles, even one, retracting from their position.

Sal: You are quite free to believe in such things, but it is illegitimate to assert that they are empirically known. None of the Synoptic Gospels was written within the lifetimes of any of those apostles, much less by any of the apostles for which they are named. I might as well ask you why Muhammed is not equally believable in the Quran, or Buddha in the Sutras, or Zarathustra in the Zend Avesta, and on and on and on...

The cumulative answer of too many scientist and evolutional theorist is miracles don't happen! Miracles can't happen! Therefore, any teaching of any such hog-wash is damaging to the world as a whole! And needs to be crushed out from the heart of education. Crushed out from the beliefs of all mankind!

Sal: Well, the teaching of the empirical actuality of religious miracles is indeed inappropriate for public high school science classes, but private sectarian schools, as well as churches and homes, remain free to teach what they will.

As for those I might feel an infinity for, or listen to, or, read, I would list first the Gospels. Then, one can gain from reading the writings of the Church Fathers, and the Church's Saints. Also, there is gain to be had from the Cathecism of the Catholic Church. None of these sources threaten to alienate your right to believe in whatever you choose to believe in.

Sal: and the Catholic Church itself accepts evolutionary theory as sound and valid science - or didn't you know that?

566 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:56pm

re: #560 Sharmuta

No- the Church rejects ID.

[Link: blogs.telegraph.co.uk...]

[Link: www.news.com.au...]

I didn't mean that in the literal sense. Sorry for lack of clarity.

567 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:47pm

re: #566 Naso Tang

Ah- okay!

568 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:14:39pm

re: #560 Sharmuta

No- the Church rejects ID.
]

To clarify further, this is what was on my mind as I wrote:

Thurs., June. 15, 2006

HONG KONG - World-renowned astrophysicist Stephen Hawking said Thursday that the late Pope John Paul II once told scientists they should not study the beginning of the universe because it was the work of God.

Hawking, author of the best-seller "A Brief History of Time," said John Paul made the comments at a cosmology conference at the Vatican. He did not say when the meeting was held.

569 tgibson1962  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:14:51pm

re: #546 Annar

Thanks for taking the time.

570 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:52pm

re: #554 littleO

Therefore, any teaching of any such hog-wash is damaging to the world as a whole! And needs to be crushed out from the heart of education. Crushed out from the beliefs of all mankind!

Neither Sal nor myself nor any of the other thoughtful posters here are advocating anything of the sort.

We say only that 'teaching miracles/belief AS SCIENCE is inappropriate', LittleO
(apologies to all thoughtful commenters here, none of whom elected ME spokesperson)

571 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:57pm

Are we having fun yet?

I am; I have found these exchanges to be most enjoyable.

572 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:20:40pm

re: #554 littleO

The cumulative answer of too many scientist and evolutional theorist is miracles don't happen! Miracles can't happen! Therefore, any teaching of any such hog-wash is damaging to the world as a whole! And needs to be crushed out from the heart of education. Crushed out from the beliefs of all mankind!

This is pure paranoia, with no connection to reality whatsoever.

573 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:20:58pm

re: #531 tgibson1962

And an excellent observation you make, TGibson... :D


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