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A Hero's Welcome in Lebanon for a Child Killer

Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 8:44:09 am PDT

Israel’s horrifyingly bad decision to swap the remains of two Israeli soldiers for a savage child-murdering terrorist has been carried out.

And the child killer will receive a hero’s welcome in Lebanon.

Samir Kuntar and four other Lebanese prisoners will receive an official state welcoming when they are released by Israel.

The five men will be greeted at Beirut’s airport by Prime Minister Fuad Saniora and President Gen. Michel Suleiman. Later, a huge rally will be held in the capital’s southern suburbs where Hizbullah leader Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah will speak, the group’s Al-Manar TV has said.

French news agency AFP reported that the coastal road from the Israeli border to the southern port city of Sidon had been covered with Hizbullah decorations, and hundreds of volunteers had been hanging banners to praise Hizbullah’s role in the prisoners’ release throughout the south of the country.

In Kuntar’s home in Abey, streets were decorated with banners welcoming the return of the former member of the radical Palestine Liberation Front. “Samir Kuntar is the conscience of Lebanon, Palestine and the Arab nation. Abey welcomes the hero, prisoner Samir Kuntar,” reads one sign.

Meanwhile, a senior Hizbullah official has said Israel’s approval of a prisoner swap with his group was an “official admission of defeat.”

Meanwhile, in Germany, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon said he was “encouraged by the prisoner swap and hoped that it was the first of many more.”

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284 comments

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1 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:45:12am

[deleted]

2 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:45:19am

"Disgusting" just doesn't seem to be enough of a descriptor.

Anything beyond that would get me deleted.

3 zombie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:45:47am

Olmert is the worst leader in Israel's history.

4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:46:23am

And from Hamas on this abomination;

A Hamas spokesman said the swap was a "victory for the resistance," adding: "It proves that a useful way to liberate prisoners from the jails of the occupation is to capture Zionist soldiers."

5 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:46:57am

Terrible trade.

6 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:47:00am

This makes me ill. I'm checking out until a new thread pops up.

7 jorline  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:47:23am

Now that I'm home...where's my gun and what's the next mission

8 Vergeltung  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:47:29am

no real words for this one. what an utter failure and surrender. this will only spur the splodeydopes on to more and more violence. it just makes no sense, on any level, but submission.....

9 Fiery Red XIII  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:47:39am

Remeber, they still got an Isreali soldier...Gahlid S.


Red

10 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:48:19am
Samir Kuntar is the conscience of Lebanon, Palestine and the Arab nation

Not exactly a glowing recommendation for keeping them around.

11 zombie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:48:28am

Though, before we go dumping on Israel too much, remember the real fundamental issue here:

This only confirms what grotesque barbarians Hezbollah really are.

It is Israel's shame that they even interact with these monsters at all.

12 AntonK  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:48:58am

I think it's worth recounting the actions of Lebanon's "national hero," via Wikipedia:

After drowning Danny [the father] in the sea in front of Einat (as Ahmed Al-Brass, Mhanna Salim Al-Muayed, and Abdel Majeed Asslan served as look outs and backup cover for Kuntar), Kuntar turned his attention towards the 4 year-old. He took his rifle and then swung it across the toddler's head, knocking her to the ground. Kuntar then dragged the toddler a couple of feet to the closest rock he could find and laid her head down on a rock, with the intention of crushing it with the butt of his rifle. Einat, instinctively covered her head with her arms, Kuntar struggled with the toddler until he finally managed to clear her arms out of the way. Once her arms were out of the way, Kuntar repeatedly beat her on the head with the butt of his rifle and stomping on her body, until blood rushed out of her ears and mouth. Then, to ensure she was dead, Kuntar continued beating her over the head until her skull was crushed and she was dead.

13 Barking Pumpkin  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:49:21am

This absolutely sickens me. Has Israel taken leave of its senses?
/Feh

14 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:49:26am

I'll say it again:

"The Beast & the Whore rule without control."

-William Blake

15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:49:30am

re: #9 Fiery Red XIII

Remeber, they still got an Isreali soldier...Gahlid S.


Red

Start leveling Gaza, a block at a time, till he is set free.

16 Little Boomer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:50:01am

This is their call, but it seems absurdly contrary to Israel's self interest.

17 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:50:04am

re: #3 zombie

That may be. This "exchange" just makes no sense. It's a disgrace.

18 Iron Fist  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:50:18am

Mohammedans like child killers, but they worship

19 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:50:26am
Samir Kuntar is the conscience of Lebanon, Palestine and the Arab nation

Actually, that's probably true.

20 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:50:56am

This is so depressing.

21 zombie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:51:02am

re: #12 AntonK

I think it's worth recounting the actions of Lebanon's "national hero," via Wikipedia:

My opinion of the ROP just got a whole lot lower, if that was even possible.

How can anyone -- even someone severely mentally ill -- celebrate such a person?

How can an entire culture consider him a hero?

22 GreenDroll  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:51:16am

Where is the State of Texas when you need it? Why Israel fails to shoot these bastards when they have them mystifies me.

23 uncle_monkey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:51:20am
official admission of defeat

Charles called it.

[barf]

24 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:52:05am

re: #1 Alouette

[deleted]

[deleted]

25 tzefa  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:52:09am

While personally I don't believe this was a good decision, I have to say that Israel as a nation has a very strong principle: "our soldiers must come home - dead or alive". We follow that principle no matter what.

A little bit of historical perspective:

March 1979: 76 terrorists released in exchange for one reservist.

November 1983: 4,700 lebanese and 65 palestinians released in exchange for 8 soldiers.

July 1984: 304 syrian POWs and 74 bodies of syrian soldiers exchanged for 6 IDF soldiers.

May 1985: 1,105 palestinian and other terrorists (including Kozo Okamoto, the japanese responsible for the 1972 terrorist attack in Ben Gurion, Ahmed Yasin who later went on to found HAMAS, and Ahmed Abarras, one of Samir Kuntar’s co-terrorists) in exchange for 3 israelis.

July 1996: 20 Hezballah terrorists and 123 bodies exchanged for two bodies of IDF soldiers killed in Lebanon 10 years earlier.

June 1998: 60 lebanese and 40 bodies exchanged for the body of an IDF soldier.

November 2003: 400 terrorists (including sheikh Obeid and Dirani, senior figures in Hezballah and Amal) released with 59 bodies in exchange for 3 bodies of IDF soldiers and Elhanan Tannenbaum, a reserve colonel.

26 'Nam Grunt  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:52:17am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They will just put him in the 1st block.....if he's still alive!

27 winston06  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:52:22am

Let's negotiate with the terrorists, says Hussein Obama

28 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:52:45am

It should have been an equal trade- coffins for coffins.

29 zombie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:53:05am

re: #22 GreenDroll

Where is the State of Texas when you need it? Why Israel fails to shoot these bastards when they have them mystifies me.

Maybe it's time for us to establish "Texas on the Jordan."

30 opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:53:07am

Want to hear from a genuine man of peace? Someone my government and my President think is just a swell guy deserving of my tax dollars.

Abbas congratulates Kuntar's family

Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Wednesday sent his regards to the families of Lebanese terrorist Samir Kuntar and the other four Lebanese prisoners scheduled to be transferred to Hizbullah.

Abbas praised the prisoner swap and congratulated the Kuntar family.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

What more from this peacemaker and the organization he leads which the US funds and trains?

PA court sentences two to death for 'collaboration'

A Palestinian Authority security court in Jenin sentenced two Palestinians to death for "collaboration with the Israeli enemy" on Tuesday.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

You're with us or with the terrorists?

I hate the terrorists and all their supporters: Bush, Rice, Olmert, Livni, Barak......

31 turn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:53:14am

Time to go to work Mossad ...

32 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:53:15am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

His name is Gilad Schalit. And as much as I'd like it to happen, I don't see how leveling Gaza would bring him back. If he's not dead already (and his captors have no reason whatsoever to keep him alive now that they know they can get the same concessions for a dead body as for a live soldier), he would be by the time they found him.

Israel has backed itself into a total lose-lose situation here.

33 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:53:52am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Start leveling Gaza, a block at a time, till he is set free.

I think that is what they want. Then they could really be victims.

34 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:54:29am

Mr. Kuntar and Mr. Nasrallah, I'd like to introduce you to my little friend - Mr. JDAM

35 Tzefa  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:54:59am

By the way...

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon said he was “encouraged by the prisoner swap and hoped that it was the first of many more.

"Many more"?
Does he mean they should kidnap more israelis?

36 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:55:06am

re: #9 Fiery Red XIII

Gilad Shalit is being held by Hamas. And Hamas' demands have never changed from the outset - the release of hundreds of Palestinian terrorists from Israeli jails.

37 opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:55:12am

re: #25 tzefa

While personally I don't believe this was a good decision, I have to say that Israel as a nation has a very strong principle: "our soldiers must come home - dead or alive". We follow that principle no matter what.

No matter what?

Insanity is not a principle. It's just insanity.

38 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:55:21am

Today has been so hard, such a depressing day, but I'm so relieved that two of the soldiers are home. Hopefully Kantar meets with an accident, shortly. I posted pictures of him on a previous thread. He is scary to look at -- a real psychopath.

39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:55:25am

re: #26 'Nam Grunt

They will just put him in the 1st block.....if he's still alive!

1) you dont tell them where you'll start
2) They can't free him if he's dead, and you dont stop destroying Gaza till he is free.

40 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:55:46am

re: #31 turn

Time to go to work Mossad ...

Yes.

41 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:56:02am

re: #25 tzefa

Right. And you see a pattern there? Israel's moral high ground has resulted in an endless cascade of kidnappings, murders and exchanges of live terrorists for dead bodies. That's what rewarding bad behavior does. Where does it stop? Certainly not here.

42 victor_yugo  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:56:06am
Ban Ki-Moon said he was “encouraged by the prisoner swap and hoped that it was the first of many more.”

He wouldn't be saying that if it were his kids that were held hostage.

Cry havoc and let slip the dogs of war.

43 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:56:23am
44 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:57:20am

re: #25 tzefa

Entebbe was the aberration, not the standard.

45 protestshooter  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:57:24am

At this point I have no sympathy for Israel no matter what happens. They brought it on themselves.

46 opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:57:58am

re: #37 opinionated

This is where this principle leads:

Arab Leaders Celebrate Victory: 'Swap Teaches us to Kidnap More'

...Hamas terrorist leader Ismail Haniyeh encouraged more kidnappings, and another Gaza terrorist openly expressed what many in Israel already fear: Kidnapping IDF soldiers has become the most effective way to release terrorists with blood on their hands.

[Link: www.israelnationalnews.com...]

Suicide is not principle.

47 realwest  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:58:41am

If today's DT is any indication, I suspect most comments are condemning this "swap" but I would say that two DEAD Israeli's are worth a hundred or more Palestinians, terrorists or not. And certainly t the families of the murdered Israelis.
Hope that the Shin Bet inserted gps chips in all of 'em before they released them, though.

48 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:58:58am

re: #43 buzzsawmonkey

1,000 + dings!

49 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:59:33am

re: #25 tzefa

While personally I don't believe this was a good decision, I have to say that Israel as a nation has a very strong principle: "our soldiers must come home - dead or alive". We follow that principle no matter what.

There is no such "principle" in Judaism that says thousands of killers must be turned loose in order to accomplish this.

50 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:59:38am

re: #35 Tzefa

By the way...
UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon said he was “encouraged by the prisoner swap and hoped that it was the first of many more.”

"Many more"?
Does he mean they should kidnap more israelis?

Yes.

51 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:00:23am

re: #25 tzefa

I have to say that Israel as a nation has a very strong principle: "our soldiers must come home - dead or alive". We follow that principle no matter what

The problem is, Israel's adherence to that principle makes the abduction of Israeli soldiers immensely profitable to your enemies.

52 neoconundrum  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:00:26am

Just when you think Israel has sunk to the bottom, you find she has sunk even lower...

Isn't there another nuclear reactor Israel can destroy?

53 Iron Fist  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:00:40am

re: #47 realwest,

It's just the Palestinians should be DEAD as well. I'm all for releasing them. Let them walk out, breathe the air of freedom...

...then shoot them in the back. Let them die a coward's death.

54 CommonCents  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:01:12am
In Kuntar’s home in Abey, streets were decorated with banners welcoming the return of the former member of the radical Palestine Liberation Front.

Blah, blah, ... moderate ..., blah, blah ... misunderstood ... blah, blah...

So this is what they mean when they say the terrorists to represent the people or religion and vice versa. For a second I was confused, now it's clear.

55 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:01:14am

re: #4 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A Hamas spokesman said the swap was a "victory for the resistance," adding: "It proves that a useful way to liberate prisoners from the jails of the occupation is to capture kill Zionist soldiers."

56 swassociates  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:01:36am

With a bit of luck Israeli intelligence is now tracking his movements and he will soon be meeting his allotment of virgins.

57 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:02:04am

So Ban Ki is just as dumb as everyone else. What exchange- does the moron know the Israeli prisoners were dead?

58 SpartanWoman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:02:08am

re: #9 Fiery Red XIII

So Israel should give up more murderers for another body? This "trade" just encourages the slaughter of more Israelis. I wish the world would get serious about Hezbollah, but most of the world accepts killing of jews as somehow ok.

59 Atweber  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:02:15am

It's amazing that you can still see a glimpse of civilization in a mideast so awash in barbarism. I can't believe that the Israelis don't send him back in a coffin.

60 opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:02:40am

re: #45 protestshooter

Don't be so harsh on Israel. Sure they were crazy to vote for Olmert and are learning what a bad election choice means.

But we may elect Obama, and the shame on us will be even greater because we have no excuse- Israel's experience is warning us of the consequences of a bad leader.

61 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:03:06am

re: #38 zulubaby

but I'm so relieved that two of the soldiers are home

I can't really take solace from that. They aren't "home"; they are dead. Murdered. And the murderers get to hand over lifeless remains in exchange for a live murderer, and then throw a party. It's an absolutely sickening spectacle. The only possibly redeeming thing I can see about is it is the possibility that it will shock the Israeli people to action.

62 protestshooter  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:03:11am

re: #60 opinionated

Don't be so harsh on Israel. Sure they were crazy to vote for Olmert and are learning what a bad election choice means.

But we may elect Obama, and the shame on us will be even greater because we have no excuse- Israel's experience is warning us of the consequences of a bad leader.

If that happens I won't have any sympathy for us, either.

63 madisonsfriend  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:03:21am

re: #50 Spiny Norman

Yes.

What an idiot- Ban-Ki seemed less stupid than Kofi when he first took over but he is now just another tool of the Muslims who control the un.

64 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:03:25am

re: #9 Fiery Red XIII

Remeber, they still got an Isreali soldier...Gahlid S.

He's dead, too.

65 Inquisitive  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:04:30am

Sickening, just plain sickening. I am just hoping there is some meaning to this that I just can't seem to comprehend.

66 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:05:23am

re: #60 opinionated

Don't be so harsh on Israel. Sure they were crazy to vote for Olmert and are learning what a bad election choice means.

It goes deeper than just a "bad election choice" for Israelis. They have the mentality "We survived Auschwitz, we can survive anything" without reealizing that they have the ability to get rid of a dictator like Olmert, not just suffer through him.

67 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:05:51am
Meanwhile, in Germany, UN Secretary General Ban Ki-Moon said he was “encouraged by the prisoner swap and hoped that it was the first of many more.”

There should be a sign over the door to the UN:

Abandon moral backbone all ye who enter here
68 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:06:12am

re: #61 Occasional Reader

I can't really take solace from that. They aren't "home"; they are dead. Murdered. And the murderers get to hand over lifeless remains in exchange for a live murderer, and then throw a party. It's an absolutely sickening spectacle. The only possibly redeeming thing I can see about is it is the possibility that it will shock the Israeli people to action.

Yes, it is utterly sickening, but it was torture not knowing where they were, what they were going through. They are going to be buried in Israel. I know that I am desperately clutching at ... nothing, but it's better than them being in Lebanon. Shock the Israeli people into doing what? Running wild in the streets? I mean, what exactly should they be doing?

69 SpartanWoman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:06:41am

re: #64 Alouette

Or will be killed as soon as a "trade" can be negotiated. And a murderer will get a hero's welcome? No shock there as muslim society applauds murder. There is no possible "reformation", Pope Benedict is sadly correct.

70 Van Impe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:07:02am
Meanwhile, a senior Hizbullah official has said Israel’s approval of a prisoner swap with his group was an “official admission of defeat.”

Sadly, this all too true.

71 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:07:39am

re: #64 Alouette

He's dead, too.

How do you know? Maybe we'll get him back.

72 Dar ul Harb  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:07:47am

re: #52 neoconundrum


Isn't there another nuclear reactor Israel can destroy?

Why, yes...

73 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:07:56am

re: #68 zulubaby

Shock the Israeli people into doing what?

Dropping political support for Olmert and the other appeaseniks.
Supporting Bibi or any other politician who will say, "enough".

74 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:08:09am

re: #21 zombie

My opinion of the ROP just got a whole lot lower, if that was even possible.

How can anyone -- even someone severely mentally ill -- celebrate such a person?

How can an entire culture consider him a hero?

I have no idea how they can celebrate him. I do know that the fact they do means Israel needs to expand its target list in Lebanon. The people who celebrate this monster need to die large numbers to impress upon the rest of the world the undesirability of associating with vermin.

75 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:08:41am

re: #70 Van Impe

Sadly, this all too true.

Oh please, who cares what a Hizbullah "official" has to say? They talk so much crap. And they talk and talk and talk ...

76 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:09:13am

re: #73 Occasional Reader

Dropping political support for Olmert and the other appeaseniks.
Supporting Bibi or any other politician who will say, "enough".

Everyone, and I mean everyone, hates Olmert.

77 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:09:55am

re: #66 Alouette & #60

Israel didn't actually elect Olmert and they can't get rid of him, even if they want to. Their political system doesn't work that way. Unfortunately.

78 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:10:08am

re: #73 Occasional Reader

Dropping political support for Olmert and the other appeaseniks.
Supporting Bibi or any other politician who will say, "enough".

The problem with that is their parliamentary system. I don't know if there is a way to get rid of Olmert before the current parliament's term is up.

79 kynna  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:10:45am

'Prisoner swap'? I don't quite see it that way, Ki-Moon-man.

The only way I would not be outraged by this is if the child killer had been returned in kind.

Otherwise it's Bizzaro World. >:(

80 Cygnus  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:10:53am

re: #28 Sharmuta

It should have been an equal trade- coffins for coffins.

With this scum in one of them.

81 profitsbeard  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:11:54am

Carpet bomb the welcome home rally.

Strafe the funerals.

82 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:12:09am

By the way, do you all notice the utter lack of curiosity on the part of the press as to the circumstances under which these IDF troopers went from being live abductees to "remains"?

Imagine - just imagine - if the situation were reversed. If the Israelis were handing over a captured terrorist who, oops, did we forget to mention, got dead somehow while in their custody. Do you think we'd see this delicate skating-around-the-issue language being used?

83 Lawrence Schmerel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:12:38am

What sad and pathetic officials Israel has. What a miserable and degrading decision.

How incredibly stupid to allow murderers like Samir Kuntar to live and be freed.

I cannot believe Olmert and his party are still in charge of Israel.

How long can this go on?

84 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:12:57am

re: #71 zulubaby

How do you know? Maybe we'll get him back.

This "deal" just gave the evidence to the animals that he is just as valuable dead as he is alive. I dont trust their kindly nature enough to think they'll let him live.

85 see bs  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:13:16am

I wouldn't mind if those scumbags suddenly exploded, taking out the Hezbollah leadership in Lebanon.

I can only hope that with this ill fated move, there is a secret contained within..tracking device...etc.

86 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:13:18am

re: #66 Alouette

Israel is psychologically broken. A victim of facing choices which have all lead to punishment.

They need major shock therapy. Unfortunately that therapy will come with a massive tragedy.

The question will be if they can ever recover.

87 protestshooter  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:13:29am

re: #83 Lawrence Schmerel


How long can this go on?

Ask the head of Iran's nuclear weapons program.

88 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:13:34am

re: #81 profitsbeard

Carpet bomb the welcome home rally.

Strafe the funerals.

Agreed.

89 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:13:53am
90 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:14:19am

re: #68 zulubaby

Yes, it is utterly sickening, but it was torture not knowing where they were, what they were going through. They are going to be buried in Israel. I know that I am desperately clutching at ... nothing, but it's better than them being in Lebanon. Shock the Israeli people into doing what? Running wild in the streets? I mean, what exactly should they be doing?

They could vote for leaders who have conviction and principles.

91 razorbacker  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:16:04am

re: #25 tzefa

This 'perspective' seems to me to be simply evidence of a failed policy lasting almost 30 years.

But I'm not Jewish, not Israeli, and have no dog in this fight.

Other than that of a semi-civilized citizen of the west aware of the ongoing battle with the forces of darkness. I don't think they'll stop with killing all the Jews. I think they might try to off my hammy behind, too.

And I do have a dog in that fight.

92 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:16:07am
93 CIA Reject  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:16:28am

"Samir Kuntar and four other Lebanese prisoners will receive an official state welcoming when they are released by Israel."


In a Perfect World the POS would catch a sniper's bullet right in the face as soon as he emerged from the aircraft....

94 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:16:33am

re: #82 Occasional Reader

Not for a second would I try to make any excuses ..., but the IDF report concluded it was almost certain that at least one of these soldiers died in the attack itself and that the other probably did too. Maybe there's some (very) small comfort in believing that they didn't have to endure captivity at the hands of these creeps.

95 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:16:40am

re: #68 zulubaby

Democratic people don't need to run wild in the streets. But they need to be in the streets- if there is no other way- to show they do not quietly acquiesce when their government is destroying the Nation.

96 SpartanWoman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:16:44am

re: #71 zulubaby

That seems very naive. And even if that were possible, how many live murderers would have to be freed to accomplish that?

These swaps just encourage kidnapping and murder. What ever happened to the "I will not negotiate with terrorists" viewpoint.

97 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:17:12am

re: #90 Son of the Black Dog

They could vote for leaders who have conviction and principles.

Yes, when there are elections.

98 Son of the Black Dog  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:17:53am

re: #92 buzzsawmonkey

They're working on getting a conviction for Olmert, but forget about the principles.

touche

99 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:18:36am

re: #96 SpartanWoman

That seems very naive. And even if that were possible, how many live murderers would have to be freed to accomplish that?

These swaps just encourage kidnapping and murder. What ever happened to the "I will not negotiate with terrorists" viewpoint.

I think that's the US, not Israel.

You call it naive, I call it hope.

100 SpartanWoman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:18:45am

re: #56 swassociates

With a bit of luck Israeli intelligence is now tracking his movements and he will soon be meeting his allotment of virgins.

In a sane society he'd have been fitted with tracking devices and they would wipe out his welcomers. But there is no sanity left.

101 nikis-knight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:20:22am

re: #25 tzefa

While personally I don't believe this was a good decision, I have to say that Israel as a nation has a very strong principle: "our soldiers must come home - dead or alive". We follow that principle no matter what.

So go in and get them, damnit! They won't be any deader because you level the building where they are held, or the city block, etc.
Never reward kidnapping or terrorism.

I really wish Israel would go all Sparta on these sonsabitches*. When they send a messenger asking to arrange a trade, kill the messenger. Eventually they will get the message, and it will stop.

*Specifically the terrorists like this child-killer, of course, not the whole whinning lot of them.

102 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:20:34am

I wonder what will happen to Kantar.

103 nikis-knight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:21:28am

re: #101 nikis-knight

(Anger shown in previous post not directed in any way at tzefa, of course!)

104 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:22:19am

re: #101 nikis-knight

So go in and get them, damnit! They won't be any deader because you level the building where they are held, or the city block, etc.
Never reward kidnapping or terrorism.

I really wish Israel would go all Sparta on these sonsabitches*. When they send a messenger asking to arrange a trade, kill the messenger. Eventually they will get the message, and it will stop.

*Specifically the terrorists like this child-killer, of course, not the whole whinning lot of them.

Lebanon is a big country. How many buildings should Israel have leveled in Lebanon? And in which areas?

105 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:22:54am

May G-d destroy Lebanon in a hail of meteorites for this. At this point, I think everyone there, ESPECIALLY the government, deserves a slow, painful death, just like their hero did to a 4 year old.

And from there, I'm leaving this thread before I get really upset.

106 Syrah  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:23:08am

re: #104 zulubaby

Lebanon is a big country. How many buildings should Israel have leveled in Lebanon? And in which areas?

As many as it takes.

107 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:23:21am

re: #71 zulubaby

How do you know? Maybe we'll get him back.

What incentive does Hamas have to keep him alive? They know they can kill him and still get what they want.

108 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:25:16am

re: #106 Syrah

As many as it takes.

Okay, I can't stand this kind of nonsense.

There was a war with Lebanon, remember? Fine, but you don't just go bombing buildings in another country.

109 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:25:27am

re: #77 Lynn B.

& #60

Israel didn't actually elect Olmert and they can't get rid of him, even if they want to. Their political system doesn't work that way. Unfortunately.

Actually they did elect Olmert by voting for Kadima, but still believed that Ariel Sharon would awake from his coma.

The Israeli political system is utterly fucked and I can't think of any way to fix it.

110 Adrenalyn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:25:36am

well, it is decision time in the middle east
does Israel destroy Hamas and Hezbollah once and for all and live in peace
or do we start rooting for the eventual winners (Hamas/Hezbollah/Fatah) and try to make nice so we're not next

so Israel, please let us know if we're wasting the billions we give you every year or not
do you want to live ?

if they don't want to survive, let's cut them off
we need an exit strategy

111 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:26:58am

So far any mention of this atrocity has not used the names of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev HY"D; just re their coffins being returned....and this is the NYC metro area.

Too angry to say more, except the word 'terrorist' is too difficult for any reporter to say.../'miltant' is easier.

As for what I wish on Olmert and his co-conspirators? [deleted].

112 SpartanWoman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:27:01am

re: #105 Kosh's Shadow

A hail of meteorites? Lebanon will sure worry about that.

113 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:27:27am

re: #107 Alouette

What incentive does Hamas have to keep him alive? They know they can kill him and still get what they want.

You're right, there is no incentive. I don't believe there is incentive, but I try to keep up hope. I had hope for Regev and Goldwasser right up until I saw their coffins and even then, inside, I kept a tiny bit of hope until there was forensic evidence positively identifying them.

114 jorline  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:27:46am

re: #28 Sharmuta

It should have been an equal trade- coffins for coffins.

Agree...return in like condition.

115 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:27:50am

re: #107 Alouette

What incentive does Hamas have to keep him alive? They know they can kill him and still get what they want.

Hamas can't kill Shalit. They have given proof of life.

But even as he will live, many other Israelis have been sentenced to death by Israel's disgusting excuse for a Government.

116 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:28:10am

Boy, did Hitler screw up. He could have easily swapped all the dead Jewish remains for his freedom, as will as freedom for Eva, Himmler, and Goerring.

/My Jewish Sarc

117 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:28:42am

re: #104 zulubaby

Lebanon is a big country. How many buildings should Israel have leveled in Lebanon? And in which areas?

Lebanon is not a big country. It is about the size of Israel. Canada, now that's a big country.

118 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:28:49am

re: #110 Adrenalyn

well, it is decision time in the middle east
does Israel destroy Hamas and Hezbollah once and for all and live in peace
or do we start rooting for the eventual winners (Hamas/Hezbollah/Fatah) and try to make nice so we're not next

so Israel, please let us know if we're wasting the billions we give you every year or not
do you want to live ?

if they don't want to survive, let's cut them off
we need an exit strategy

First mistake, and one I believe Israel made, is that Hizbullah are not Hamas.

The rest of your post is disgusting.

119 SpartanWoman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:29:18am

re: #108 zulubaby

Okay, I can't stand this kind of nonsense.

There was a war with Lebanon, remember? Fine, but you don't just go bombing buildings in another country.

Except if you are a muslim "militant" from Hezbollah or Hamas. Then you do it and stupid people act all shocked and saddened when your victims retaliate as they prefer to think of the assholes who cheer as somehow innocent.

You are worse than naive.

120 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:29:50am

re: #108 zulubaby

There was a war with Lebanon, remember?

It was waged half-heartedly, with a constant eye on "world opinion". (Which resulted in an effective Hizballah victory, despite Israeli military superiority.) Israel is reaching the point where it can no longer afford this sort of sucidal self-delusion.

121 Creeping Eruption  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:30:59am

Well not surprisingly, the douche bags at huffpo are jubilant - you would think that Buchanan was posting over there. Anyone know if koslings have thrown in their worthless thoughts on this tragedy?

122 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:31:02am

re: #99 zulubaby

I think that's the US, not Israel.

You call it naive, I call it hope.

That is actually a very good BHO impression.

123 SpartanWoman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:33:14am

re: #120 Occasional Reader

I agree completely and I'm signing off. The pollyanna nonsense is sickening and the negotiating for dead bodies with live terrorists is pathetic.

Maybe the muslims will offer a few million dead jews for a few million live terrorists? Such a deal!

124 Syrah  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:33:35am

re: #108 zulubaby

Okay, I can't stand this kind of nonsense.

There was a war with Lebanon, remember? Fine, but you don't just go bombing buildings in another country.

I remember.

Olmert turned what should have been a victory into a defeat.

War must be made so horrific to the enemy that he would rather do anything then invite any attention from you at all. War is the proper place for measured excess.

Israel could have and should have kept all of the territory it captured in that war till Goldwasser and Ragev were returned to them alive, and kept indefinitely if Goldwasser and Ragev were killed.

The enemy must fear the price of your attention.

125 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:34:31am

re: #122 Dark_Falcon

That is actually a very good BHO impression.

No idea what that means. Feel free to explain.

126 nikis-knight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:34:53am

re: #104 zulubaby

Lebanon is a big country. How many buildings should Israel have leveled in Lebanon? And in which areas?

There has to be some way of finding where they are. Survailance, informants, special forces, spies, etc.
If not, then tell the world we are sorry for the loss of these brave men, but we will not give one inch to terror now or ever.
Or as some have suggested, arrange a trade, then shoot everyone on the other side. when you have your guys back.
These are terrorists. Do not treat them with honor. Kill them. Or more people will die.

127 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:35:01am

re: #120 Occasional Reader

It was waged half-heartedly, with a constant eye on "world opinion". (Which resulted in an effective Hizballah victory, despite Israeli military superiority.) Israel is reaching the point where it can no longer afford this sort of sucidal self-delusion.

It was a disaster.

128 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:36:12am

re: #124 Syrah

War must be made so horrific to the enemy that he would rather do anything then invite any attention from you at all. War is the proper place for measured excess.

When Israel goes to war, it goes to war against the Islamics but then then joining the battle are the media, the EU, the UN and the US State Dept, to make war on Israel.

129 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:36:21am

re: #68 zulubaby

Yes, it is utterly sickening, but it was torture not knowing where they were, what they were going through. They are going to be buried in Israel. I know that I am desperately clutching at ... nothing, but it's better than them being in Lebanon. Shock the Israeli people into doing what? Running wild in the streets? I mean, what exactly should they be doing?

Replacing Olmert with someone with a backbone.

On that note, we can only hope a President McCain will be less inclined to suck up to the PLO's Fatah's Palestinian Authority's "civilian" leadership.

130 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:36:36am

re: #126 nikis-knight

There has to be some way of finding where they are. Survailance, informants, special forces, spies, etc.
If not, then tell the world we are sorry for the loss of these brave men, but we will not give one inch to terror now or ever.
Or as some have suggested, arrange a trade, then shoot everyone on the other side. when you have your guys back.
These are terrorists. Do not treat them with honor. Kill them. Or more people will die.

You should join the IDF as a strategist.

131 Syrah  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:39:14am

re: #128 Opinionated

When Israel goes to war, it goes to war against the Islamics but then then joining the battle are the media, the EU, the UN and the US State Dept, to make war on Israel.

That is true.

Israel needs to remember that the media, the EU, the UN, and the anti-Israel elements at the US State Dept are their enemy as much as are the Islamist. Trying to curry favor from them can only lead to disaster.

132 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:40:26am

re: #102 zulubaby

I wonder what will happen to Kantar.

A victim of a "work accident", and soon, if there's any justice in the world.

133 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:40:49am

How long have the Israel soldiers been dead? What is the condition of their remains? Will the Israel government even dare to open the coffins.

The IDF should overthrow this ganniff government now. Olmert and Peres are two of the greatest traitors and villains in the history of the Jewish People. They should both have molten lead poured down their throats.

134 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:42:08am

re: #131 Syrah

I have to wonder if there is anyone in State who is not anti-Israel.

Condi must be smirking.

135 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:42:25am

re: #132 Spiny Norman

A victim of a "work accident", and soon, if there's any justice in the world.

This is what I'm hoping for.

136 nikis-knight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:42:43am

re: #130 zulubaby

Please be more specific about what you disagree with.
I'm not saying it would be easy to get them out with your military. But freeing murderers because of kidnapping, let alone for hostages of indeterminate health, let alone for corpses, should not be the first resort. It should not be the last resort. It is not an option unless you want more, many more, people to die.

137 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:43:37am

re: #133 Biff

How long have the Israel soldiers been dead?

Probably executed the day they were captured, or soon thereafter. Hizb'allah goes by the Viet Cong playbook.

138 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:44:45am

re: #112 SpartanWoman

A hail of meteorites? Lebanon will sure worry about that.

I mean something that ends up like Sodom. Not a short rain, something that pounds the whole country until it is rubble; something really Biblical in proportions. Something that makes those who think evolution means there is no G-d (which it doesn't) head to the nearest church or synagogue. (Not mosque)

139 Steve McCullough  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:45:35am

You give us dead bodies. We release murderers so that you can give us more dead bodies. What a deal!

140 Syrah  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:46:11am

Work callsre: #134 NY Nana

I have to wonder if there is anyone in State who is not anti-Israel.

Condi must be smirking.

I wonder that myself at times.

I had hopes that Condi was going to be able to clean house at State. She has been a disappointment.

141 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:47:00am

re: #125 zulubaby

No idea what that means. Feel free to explain.

"You call it naive, I call it hope." Sounded to me like something Obama might say or think. I meant it in jest, not to mock you, but to mock him.

142 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:47:07am

re: #137 Spiny Norman

Re: When Regev and Goldwasser died.

There should be no "probably". It should be known by now and immediately released by the Israeli government. Why leave this issue to question.

143 Syrah  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:47:58am

Work calls.

Back in 12 to 15hrs.

Pray for Israel. She will need our prayers in the days to come

144 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:49:21am

re: #136 nikis-knight

Please be more specific about what you disagree with.
I'm not saying it would be easy to get them out with your military. But freeing murderers because of kidnapping, let alone for hostages of indeterminate health, let alone for corpses, should not be the first resort. It should not be the last resort. It is not an option unless you want more, many more, people to die.

It was not a first resort, this has been going on for two years. I am sick over this, believe me, and I think that Olmert and Peres are disgusting, but can't expect Israel to go to Lebanon and start randomly bombing buildings. It's just a ridiculous notion.

And you know what, I wouldn't even care about this swap if it wasn't for Kantar. He is evil, he is dangerous and he should not have been freed. I know that there were other terrorists freed too. But the dead prisoners -- or whatever they are -- that Israel returned to Lebanon ... I couldn't care less if Israel gave them 1,000 bodies for Regev and Goldwasser.

Nobody knew for sure if they were dead or alive until they saw the coffins.

145 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:50:22am

re: #138 Kosh's Shadow

I mean something that ends up like Sodom. Not a short rain, something that pounds the whole country until it is rubble; something really Biblical in proportions.

Many Lebanese hate Hizb'allah. I have a Lebanese immigrant friend, a veteran of Arafat's Civil War, who has family in northern Lebanon who pray for the day when bearded freak Nasrallah's gangsters are destroyed to the last man.

146 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:50:25am

re: #141 Dark_Falcon

"You call it naive, I call it hope." Sounded to me like something Obama might say or think. I meant it in jest, not to mock you, but to mock him.

Okay. I don't really mind or care.

147 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:51:45am

re: #144 zulubaby

Nobody knew for sure if they were dead or alive until they saw the coffins.

And as of now, you still don't know.

148 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:51:55am

re: #132 Spiny Norman

For those who are not familiar with what Kuntar did, as he arrives home to a massive celebration...see this.

I am off this thread...too upset.

149 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:51:57am

re: #142 Biff

Re: When Regev and Goldwasser died.

There should be no "probably". It should be known by now and immediately released by the Israeli government. Why leave this issue to question.

I don't know if the Israeli government knows. It's not like Hizbullah tells the truth about anything, ever. Apparently the bodies were in very bad condition.

150 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:52:20am

re: #147 Biff

And as of now, you still don't know.

What do you mean?

151 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:52:51am

re: #11 zombie

Though, before we go dumping on Israel too much, remember the real fundamental issue here:

This only confirms what grotesque barbarians Hezbollah really are.

It is Israel's shame that they even interact with these monsters at all.

And what about the rest of the Lebanese... I'd like to hear loud disavowals of this disgusting interaction with their neighbor. Read (or listen to Brigitta Gabriel read her own words) the book Because They Hate. She was from Lebanon and hearing what she learned was quite depressing. Michael Totten is a fan of Lebanon and makes many exculpatory cluckings about how it's just the way it is, etc. I'd like to see if he's read Brigitta's book and what the thinks about the yellow brick road going from Rosh Hanikra north.

152 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:53:57am

re: #140 Syrah

Work calls


I wonder that myself at times.

I had hopes that Condi was going to be able to clean house at State. She has been a disappointment.

She was never a real friend of Israel's. And she put on a good act. I cannot wait to see President McCain appoint John Bolton as Sec. of State.

Take care!

153 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:54:56am
Though officials had suspected Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev were dead, the sight of the coffins was the first confirmation of their fate.
154 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:55:36am

re: #40 zulubaby

Yes.

Ehud Barak could handle it.

155 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:56:00am

re: #133 Biff

Don't forget Sharon....he belongs on the list.

156 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:56:37am

re: #150 zulubaby

I forensic examination of the bodies is needed to 1) identify the bodies by genetic testing, dental records, skeletal features; 2) determine the cause and time of death.

What is the point of showing me a closed black coffin. If you don't hear anything about a forensic exam, it's because Olmert does not want you to know.

If anyone says that such an exam is a defilement of the remains and contrary to Jewish law, they are totally full of it.

157 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:57:29am

A forensic exam ... (PIMF)

158 mm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:58:01am

i feel sick.

the only thing that would help would be immediate impeachment of Olmert, and the delivery of Samir Kuntar, in a bag.

How could they be so foolish?

159 Alibaba  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:58:02am

Unless the remains are examined, there is no solid proof. They should have demanded a proof of life.re: #153 zulubaby

160 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:59:10am

re: #45 protestshooter

At this point I have no sympathy for Israel no matter what happens. They brought it on themselves.

Ah... the old "the Jews had it coming" argument... means you don't have to face the hard things and competing claims (parents and reservists vs. common sense non-negotiation with the creeps in the neighborhood). Makes it much easier to just throw them to the wolves. History repeats...

161 boston_baby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:59:14am

Would the last Israeli with any balls please turn out the light?
I am so ashamed to that we are few and far between these days.

162 Alibaba  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:59:50am

re: #145 Spiny Norman

Many Lebanese hate Hizb'allah. I have a Lebanese immigrant friend, a veteran of Arafat's Civil War, who has family in northern Lebanon who pray for the day when bearded freak Nasrallah's gangsters are destroyed to the last man.


My son has Lebanese Christian friends and they despise the Hezzies.

163 nikis-knight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:59:53am

re: #144 zulubaby

I agree. I don't want it to be random in anyway. (I thought that was clear, but if not, I'm sorry.) And I don't care what they do with dead terrorists, either (assuming they can find the pieces.) And I don't object to trading POWs, legitimate combatants, on a more or less even basis.
But scum like this should only be released with a GPS tracker and a hellfire on the way.

164 DaMav  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:01:38am

Alas Israel. Alas Israel.

165 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:01:59am

re: #49 Alouette

There is no such "principle" in Judaism that says thousands of killers must be turned loose in order to accomplish this.

It isn't a religious principle. It is a national contract principle since all of their kids go to the IDF for 2-3 years minimum plus reserve miluim.

166 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:02:04am

This is what the Israeli Consulate in NY had to say:

July 16th, 2008
Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev Returned to Israel in Today's Prisoner Exchange


The bodies of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev were returned to Israel on Wednesday, 16 July 2008 along with additional recovered remains of soldiers who fell during the Second Lebanon War. In exchange, Israel returned Samir Kuntar and four other Lebanese terrorists, as well as the bodies of dozens of infiltrators and terrorists to Lebanon .

Israel has a duty, as a nation and as a people, to protect those who risk their lives to defend its citizens. Every Israeli soldier knows that his country will do its utmost to retrieve him should he fall into enemy hands. This is an expression of Israel 's deep reverence for human life and of its respect for the fallen. This principle stems from Israel 's sense of morality as well as from Jewish ethics and is a demonstration of Israel 's moral and physical strength.

It is morally reprehensible that Samir Kuntar, a vile child-killer, is now being hailed as a hero in Lebanon . As this YouTube video makes clear, his crimes are truly reprehensible and are condemned by every decent society. Hizbullah, just like any other society, can be judged by whom it chooses to idolize and to hold up as an example for its youth. Yet as an extremist Islamist organization, it chooses to worship death and destruction while clinging to its goal of destroying Israel .

This exchange to return IDF soldiers does not legitimize Hizbullah. Israel 's decision to return its soldiers should not be interpreted as indicating any change in Israel 's policy towards this Iranian-sponsored terrorist organization. The international community must continue to recognize the danger posed by Hizbullah and its extremist cohorts to the stability of the Middle East and should redouble its support of the pragmatic elements in the region, who seek to make peace through dialogue and compromise.

Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev will be laid to rest tomorrow, 17 July 2008, in Israeli military cemeteries.

There are some kernels of truth in this, namely that one can judge Hizbullah by who it seeks to elevate as heroes. They are terrorists, and honor those who murder Israelis.

Still, to claim that the return of IDF soldiers doesn't legimitize Hizbullah is the height of folly. Of course it does. It also lays the groundwork for Hizbullah to undertake further infiltration operations to capture Israelis so that they too can be used as pawns in terrorist releases from Israeli jails.

If it was so morally reprehensible to release Samir Kuntar, why did Peres issue a pardon? That wasn't a necessary precondition to his release.

167 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:02:48am

re: #162 Alibaba

Outnumbered, outgunned, and nearly out of time.

168 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:03:14am

re: #52 neoconundrum

Just when you think Israel has sunk to the bottom, you find she has sunk even lower...

Isn't there another nuclear reactor Israel can destroy?

Israel has sunk to the bottom? I don't think so. Their neighbors are the bottom feeders. Israel is just getting by so they can continue growing their FABULOUS country.

169 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:04:34am

re: #145 Spiny Norman

Many Lebanese hate Hizb'allah. I have a Lebanese immigrant friend, a veteran of Arafat's Civil War, who has family in northern Lebanon who pray for the day when bearded freak Nasrallah's gangsters are destroyed to the last man.

Then let them form a government and an army that gets rid of them.
Right now, Hizballah has veto power in the government, which to me, makes the entire country at war with Israel, and thus, a legitimate target

170 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:06:55am

re: #165 Sunlight

It isn't a religious principle. It is a national contract principle since all of their kids go to the IDF for 2-3 years minimum plus reserve miluim.

Right.

171 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:07:48am

re: #83 Lawrence Schmerel

What sad and pathetic officials Israel has. What a miserable and degrading decision.

How incredibly stupid to allow murderers like Samir Kuntar to live and be freed.

I cannot believe Olmert and his party are still in charge of Israel.

How long can this go on?

Until their lawfully mandated elections, whenever that comes about. It is amazing to hear people here smearing Israel and wanting them to - what? - have coups-d'etats? Like some 3rd world banana republic? Israel is a dignified democracy doing what they think is best for their country.

172 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:08:43am

re: #156 Biff

I forensic examination of the bodies is needed to 1) identify the bodies by genetic testing, dental records, skeletal features; 2) determine the cause and time of death.

What is the point of showing me a closed black coffin. If you don't hear anything about a forensic exam, it's because Olmert does not want you to know.

If anyone says that such an exam is a defilement of the remains and contrary to Jewish law, they are totally full of it.

I don't know about forensics, and how accurately they can determine the time of death from remains. Maybe the information needed to get to the families first?

173 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:09:57am

re: #154 Sunlight

Ehud Barak could handle it.

Handle what?

174 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:13:53am

re: #113 zulubaby

You're right, there is no incentive. I don't believe there is incentive, but I try to keep up hope. I had hope for Regev and Goldwasser right up until I saw their coffins and even then, inside, I kept a tiny bit of hope until there was forensic evidence positively identifying them.

zulubaby - Do keep up hope. These people disparaging Israel's choices need to look in the mirror. Think of all the drunk drivers we in the U.S. let off over and over until they finally go out and kill a family of 5 on the road. Murderers enabled by the U.S. system. And no one bats an eye. We need to take the log out our own eye so that we can take notes and admire Israel's way of working things out.

175 nikis-knight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:17:11am

re: #174 Sunlight

Apples and oranges. Drunk driving is egregious, but it isn't unrepentant cold blooded child murder.

176 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:17:26am

re: #174 Sunlight

zulubaby - Do keep up hope. These people disparaging Israel's choices need to look in the mirror. Think of all the drunk drivers we in the U.S. let off over and over until they finally go out and kill a family of 5 on the road. Murderers enabled by the U.S. system. And no one bats an eye. We need to take the log out our own eye so that we can take notes and admire Israel's way of working things out.

Thank you. Everyone is feeling it here today. It's been a very, very hard day. Israel is a miracle, faults and all.

177 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:21:44am

Unmentioned in this thread is that Hizbollah did not keep their part of the deal.

Prior to the exchange today, Hizbullah was supposed to give Israel a full accounting of the fate of Ron Arad, an Israel airman missing since 1986.

The report furnished to Israel was a fraud.

Mofaz: Nasrallah has more info on Arad

Transportation Minister Shaul Mofaz expressed disappointment with Hizbullah's report on Ron Arad on Tuesday, saying he believed Hizbullah chief Hassan Nasrallah knew more about Arad than was written in the report.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

Israel didn't just make a disgraceful deal. Israel went through with this disgraceful deal when Hizbullah didn't fulfil their deal requirements.

Revolting.

178 ryannon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:23:27am

re: #25 tzefa

While personally I don't believe this was a good decision, I have to say that Israel as a nation has a very strong principle: "our soldiers must come home - dead or alive". We follow that principle no matter what.

A little bit of historical perspective:

March 1979: 76 terrorists released in exchange for one reservist.

November 1983: 4,700 lebanese and 65 palestinians released in exchange for 8 soldiers.

July 1984: 304 syrian POWs and 74 bodies of syrian soldiers exchanged for 6 IDF soldiers.

May 1985: 1,105 palestinian and other terrorists (including Kozo Okamoto, the japanese responsible for the 1972 terrorist attack in Ben Gurion, Ahmed Yasin who later went on to found HAMAS, and Ahmed Abarras, one of Samir Kuntar’s co-terrorists) in exchange for 3 israelis.

July 1996: 20 Hezballah terrorists and 123 bodies exchanged for two bodies of IDF soldiers killed in Lebanon 10 years earlier.

June 1998: 60 lebanese and 40 bodies exchanged for the body of an IDF soldier.

November 2003: 400 terrorists (including sheikh Obeid and Dirani, senior figures in Hezballah and Amal) released with 59 bodies in exchange for 3 bodies of IDF soldiers and Elhanan Tannenbaum, a reserve colonel.

January 20012: Israel hands over its entire country and population to the Palestinians in exchange for the neutralisation of dozens of Iranian-made dirty bombs that have been smuggled into the country piece by piece.

179 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:23:55am

re: #170 zulubaby

Right.

I know this because we have had shlihim who just finished their service stay with us the last two summers.

180 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:24:31am

re: #176 zulubaby

Everyone is feeling it here today. It's been a very, very hard day. Israel is a miracle, faults and all.

You have a completely corrupt government. If eastern europeans can march on their governments, so can you. If this happened in the US, there would be huge demonstrations. A third rate office breakdown took down Nixon. A blowjob almost took down Clinton. Olmert and Peres are surrendering your national dignity, and your land, and your children to Islamic terrorists, and all you can do is sit in your air conditioned apartments, read the JPost, and pray?

181 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:25:03am

re: #175 nikis-knight

Apples and oranges. Drunk driving is egregious, but it isn't unrepentant cold blooded child murder.

Respectfully disagree.

182 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:26:35am

"office break-in" (PIMF)

183 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:28:05am

re: #180 Biff

You have a completely corrupt government. If eastern europeans can march on their governments, so can you. If this happened in the US, there would be huge demonstrations. A third rate office breakdown took down Nixon. A blowjob almost took down Clinton. Olmert and Peres are surrendering your national dignity, and your land, and your children to Islamic terrorists, and all you can do is sit in your air conditioned apartments, read the JPost, and pray?

I'm Sorry. Israel's corruption is small potatoes compared to what goes on in even the smallest states in the U.S. Nothing is done. The perps get off over and over.

184 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:29:48am

From Arutz7:

Two coffins, which Hizbullah claims contain the bodies of Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser, crossed the border into Israel from Lebanon at 9:30 a.m. Wednesday. Hizbullah gave the bodies to the International Committee of the Red Cross (I.C.R.C.), which then delivered them into Israeli hands. Teams of forensic professionals were standing by with advanced lab equipment on site to take samples to confirm the identities of the remains. A helicopter also stood by to rush the samples to more complete labratories.

Wednesday's transfer was the first interaction the I.C.R.C. had with the two hostages, despite efforts by Victims of Arab Terror International to arrange visits to them while they were alive.

In the framework of the government-approved exchange, convicted terrorist murderer Samir Kuntar of Lebanon and four Hizbullah terrorists are on their way to becoming free men as they await transfer to Lebanon at Israel's northern border at Rosh HaNikra. The families of abducted soldiers Eldad Regev and Ehud Goldwasser await the final identification of the remains of their sons. The IDF spokesman said that the identification process takes "between several to many hours."

185 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:30:58am

re: #183 Sunlight

LLL

186 nikis-knight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:31:11am

re: #180 Biff

You have a completely corrupt government. If eastern europeans can march on their governments, so can you. If this happened in the US, there would be huge demonstrations.

I don't know. Let's see what happens with regard to the previous thread. Americans have our share of spinlessness, and I won't be surprised if our government gives in and returns the killer to Mexico.

re: #181 Sunlight

Respectfully disagree.

Well, I do see your point.
The problem with this deal is also the negotiating with, and thus (unintentionally but predictably) legitimzing and rewarding, terrorists, which is a bit different from being weak on crime. Though if they killed this Kantar creature, he would never have been able to be a freed in such a deal, so being soft on crime is a part of it too, I think.

187 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:31:38am
... and all you can do is sit in your air conditioned apartments, read the JPost, and pray?

So smug, you are.

188 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:33:55am

re: #186 nikis-knight

Drunk drivers have run up a much higher kill rate than bombers, etc. Drunk drivers are terrorists.

189 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:34:07am

re: #187 zulubaby


In this case, yes.

190 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:37:00am

Biff, I'm not in the mood and can't be bothered with you. Carry on.
--
Drunk drivers are cold-blooded murderers too.

191 nikis-knight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:38:44am

re: #188 Sunlight

No, terrorism refers to intent. It is using violence against civilians to achieve a political goal (although for some the political goal is genocide...)
Drunk drivers are no more terrorists than murderers are. They're all bad, but words have different meanings.

192 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:42:11am

re: #190 zulubaby

Why don't you gather your neighbors, pack food for a few days, get in your cars, and drive to the Knesset. Maybe bring along some groggers and shofars.

193 zulubaby  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:44:04am

re: #192 Biff

Why don't you gather your neighbors, pack food for a few days, get in your cars, and drive to the Knesset. Maybe bring along some groggers and shofars.

I'll go to the beach in Tel Aviv instead. And you can fuck off.

194 ryannon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:45:18am

re: #104 zulubaby

Lebanon is a big country. How many buildings should Israel have leveled in Lebanon? And in which areas?

Most of southern suburbs of Beirut would be a good start.

195 2senseplain  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:45:33am

re: #78 Dark_Falcon

There is. He's going to go out as a result of his corrupt financial dealings, however, not his criminally appalling "leadership". Its not nearly fast enough and it will put Tzipi Livni in his place to continue to do damage before she can be replaced.

196 Biff  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:47:12am

re: #193 zulubaby

I'll go to the beach in Tel Aviv instead. And you can fuck off.

In a democracy, you get the government you deserve.

197 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:49:26am

re: #196 Biff

In a democracy, you get the government you deserve.

And in a democracy, you are allowed to be gratuitously abrasive.

198 deeedo  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:50:36am

Without going into the deal if it was right or wrong let us have a moment with the families. Please read this for the 2 fallen heroes

Consider, O Israel, for them that are dead, wounded on thy high places.
The illustrious of Israel are slain upon thy mountains: how are the valiant fallen?
Tell it not in Geth, publish it not in the streets of Ascalon: lest the daughters of the Philistines rejoice, lest the daughters of the uncircumcised triumph.
Ye mountains of Gelboe, let neither dew, nor rain come upon you, neither be they fields of firstfruits: for there was cast away the shield of the valiant, the shield of Saul as though he had not been anointed with oil.
From the blood of the slain, from the fat of the valiant, the arrow of Jonathan never turned back, and the sword of Saul did not return empty.
Saul and Jonathan, lovely, and comely in their life, even in death they were not divided: they were swifter than eagles, stronger than lions.
Ye daughters of Israel, weep over Saul, who clothed you with scarlet in delights, who gave ornaments of gold for your attire.
How are the valiant fallen in battle? Jonathan slain in the high places?
I grieve for thee, my brother Jonathan: exceeding beautiful, and amiable to me above the love of women. As the mother loveth her only son, so did I love thee.
How are the valiant fallen, and the weapons of war perished?

199 ryannon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:51:32am

re: #190 zulubaby

Biff, I'm not in the mood and can't be bothered with you. Carry on.

Drunk drivers are cold-blooded murderers too.


When left untreated, so is syphillis.

200 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:51:55am

re: #196 Biff

Why are you trying to provoke a fight? She's as frustrated by today's events as much as anyone else.

201 2senseplain  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:54:40am

re: #156 Biff
They did the forensic exam. It took about 4 times as long as they thought it would because of the awful condition of the bodies. We were not going to rely on the Red Cross/Crescent say-so.

202 grumpy old codger  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:55:09am

Never Again! I think that sentiment has passed. The kidnapping and killing of Israelis (and probably other Westerners) will now become the newest money maker in the moslem world. And, despite Israel's desire to promote the sanctity of human life, these incidents will occur more frequently.
It is time that Israel dropped the "nice guy" pretense. They could start with death sentences for terrorists. Also, how about, massive retaliation for mortar attacks, rocketings, etc..
Oh, and did I mention Iran how has rockets capable of hitting Israel and probably has some nukes?
Either Israel stands up or we go for another "Operation Exodus". But, hey, outside of the US, where are going to go?

203 Sunlight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:00:28am

re: #202 grumpy old codger

Never Again! I think that sentiment has passed. The kidnapping and killing of Israelis (and probably other Westerners) will now become the newest money maker in the moslem world. And, despite Israel's desire to promote the sanctity of human life, these incidents will occur more frequently.

LIke in Mexico and South America?

204 harrylook  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:01:37am

“Samir Kuntar is the conscience of Lebanon, Palestine and the Arab nation. "

Well, that explains a lot. Everything, actually.

205 LudwigVanQuixote  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:16:46am

The Hezzies had all along been stringing us into believing that these two were still alive. This is very simple. The West were expecting live prisoners. When that turns out not to be the case, put a bullet in the head of the baby killer and hand over his corpse.

Dear G-d, I can not believe how we fell for this, and put up with this. I am sickened in my heart and soul with grief and anger at the foolish, gutless stupidity of the Israeli government. As to the Hezzies, I am sickened that such vile and cancerous creatures live on the same planet as me.

206 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:19:34am

re: #204 harrylook

“Samir Kuntar is the conscience of Lebanon, Palestine and the Arab nation. "

Well, that explains a lot. Everything, actually.

Well said.

They are only human in the strictest biological sense.

207 smaug6  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:27:10am

Wow, well it is a fact that you are lost when you can't deal with murderers in the appropriate manner. Elimination of the threat is the only way to be certain.

208 Adina in Judea  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:29:08am

re: #25 tzefa

Your list of previous prisoner exchanges shows that the deal made today (as awful as it was) was far less drastic than previous prisoner exchange deals have been. In 1983, almost 5000 prisoners were released in exchange for 8 soldiers, for example.

The IDF had helicopters standing by to take the soldiers to hospitals today in case they were returned alive. It seems to me that the Israeli government didn't know for sure whether they were dead or alive (despite the recent talk of assumptions that the soldiers were dead.)

Again, I don't like the deal that was made today, but I really suspect that the government didn't know the soldiers' conditions for certain. This does have an impact on the situation, if so. It's still a horrible deal, but it does explain a bit more about why the deal went through.

209 J.S.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:31:20am

I am utterly appalled by this decision of Israel's...I cannot understand it. It's beyond comprehension. What are they now doing? Kowtowing to murderous bastards? Strengthening Hezbollah? Supporting Nasrallah's murderous genociders? Of the same ilk are they? Ariel Sharon's bottom line was always, always, never to free any terrorist with blood on his hands. Never. And this "red line" had a reason -- a very clear and obvious reason why it should never, ever be crossed. If you give in to this blackmail, the murderous blackmailers will be strengthened and encouraged. You don't offer crocodile's your hand in the hopes the animal will suddenly be "satisfied." These murderous scum have an insatiable appetite. The Israelis have just whetted its appetite. Thanks.

210 Alibaba  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:37:27am

Olmert is on his way out, and the child killing terrorist will get his sooner or later. Watch.re: #158 mm

211 J.S.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:45:39am

re: #175 nikis-knight

I meant tio plus you, nikis-knight...my mistake...sorry.

212 Bombarafat  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:48:52am

Unfortunately the left emsculated Israel so there is no death penalty. This filthbag should've been executed years ago.

213 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:52:45am

re: #188 Sunlight

Drunk drivers have run up a much higher kill rate than bombers, etc. Drunk drivers are terrorists.

That makes no sense whatsoever. Nor does your comparison of releasing drunk drivers in the US to releasing jihadist terrorists in Israel. Drunk drivers do not represent a phenomenon that threaten our national survival.

214 Occasional Reader  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:54:52am

re: #208 Adina in Judea

but I really suspect that the government didn't know the soldiers' conditions for certain

Olmert had already stated that they knew the soldiers were dead. This was even the subject of a thread IIRC. And if there as any doubt, they could have demanded proof of life as a condition to the deal.

I know that the Israeli government faces having to make lots of decisions that have no good options. But this was just a lousy decision.

215 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:57:29am

Bye bye, precious Gilad. May Hashem rescue you, because your government won't.

216 gatorbait  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:03:50pm

re: #34 Son of the Black Dog

Mr. Kuntar and Mr. Nasrallah, I'd like to introduce you to my little friend - Mr. JDAM

How about Miss Daisy Cutter? Add a little fireworks to the celebration.

217 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:04:10pm

re: #11 zombie

Though, before we go dumping on Israel too much, remember the real fundamental issue here:

This only confirms what grotesque barbarians Hezbollah really are.

It is Israel's shame that they even interact with these monsters at all.


Zombie, we already know what the Muslims are; we should not expect them to go against their nature and become human. We, on the other hand, KNOW BETTER. Centuries of horrendous persecution should have taught us to use our strength when we have it to use. I would like to see Israel respond like a crazed monster whenever the barbarians strike. It is the only language they understand.

Instead, we are pathetically, humiliatingly, weak. Expect more of the same from here on out. I am afraid we will never see Gilad alive or free now. We have taught the sub-humans that we do not require living soldiers in exchange for prisoners.

218 J. Lichty  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:11:12pm

re: #208 Adina in Judea

Your list of previous prisoner exchanges shows that the deal made today (as awful as it was) was far less drastic than previous prisoner exchange deals have been. In 1983, almost 5000 prisoners were released in exchange for 8 soldiers, for example.

The IDF had helicopters standing by to take the soldiers to hospitals today in case they were returned alive. It seems to me that the Israeli government didn't know for sure whether they were dead or alive (despite the recent talk of assumptions that the soldiers were dead.)

Again, I don't like the deal that was made today, but I really suspect that the government didn't know the soldiers' conditions for certain. This does have an impact on the situation, if so. It's still a horrible deal, but it does explain a bit more about why the deal went through.

Adina - I don't know how you can say this. Olmert said we are making this deal whether they are alive or dead. Even if, contrary what has long been known, there were even an inkling that these two were alive, saying to those who relish the death of jews that they will get what they want regardless of whether R and G were alive is a death warrant. Olmert admitted that he knew they were dead. The medical teams were there for show. Sadly in his attempt to appease Karnit Goldwasser and the Regev families and their left wing media champions, Olmert signed the death warrant for Gilad Shalit (someone who had actually given a recent proof of life) and also the death warrant of any future Israeli captive.

219 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:14:57pm

re: #61 Occasional Reader

I can't really take solace from that. They aren't "home"; they are dead. Murdered. And the murderers get to hand over lifeless remains in exchange for a live murderer, and then throw a party. It's an absolutely sickening spectacle. The only possibly redeeming thing I can see about is it is the possibility that it will shock the Israeli people to action.

I agree with you. And while I am loath to criticize the grieving families of Ehud and Eldad -- God only knows what horror they have endured for the past two years, which has culminated in the ultimate horror today -- I wish that there were a stronger consensus among Israelis that this was the WRONG thing to do. We may cut the parents some slack, but what is the excuse for the idiot politicians and the moronic Israeli populace?

There are soldiers now writing instructions that should they ever be captured by the sub-humans, Israel is NOT to trade terrorists for their release.

For those who have made comments here today about how you have lost sympathy for Israel and you don't care what happens to her now -- believe me, I do understand why you feel that way. But consider how many people are here who ARE strong, who ARE principled, and who are willing to fight to defend Israel and defeat the enemy. Unfortunately, we are outnumbered by moonbats and other assorted imbeciles. It may happen to your America, too. And when it does, I will still feel sympathy for you, and pray for you to overcome.

220 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:18:05pm

re: #68 zulubaby

Yes, zulubaby, we should be rioting in the streets until Olmert is brought down. We should take steps to shut down the Whore known as Shas. There are too few of us who are real Zionists, and most of those who are the strength of this nation are considered "those crazy settlers."

221 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:20:28pm

re: #78 Dark_Falcon


He was almost brought down a couple of weeks ago, but managed to save his coalition. The Whore Shas is the main culprit.

222 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:22:40pm

re: #84 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

This "deal" just gave the evidence to the animals that he is just as valuable dead as he is alive. I dont trust their kindly nature enough to think they'll let him live.


Yes, exactly, and no deal should have gone forward that did not include Gilad. I don't care if Hezbullah and Hamas are "separate entities." Bullshit -- they are both the same turd and everyone knows it. It was entirely possible to make Gilad's release part of the deal.

223 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:28:13pm

re: #102 zulubaby

I wonder what will happen to Kantar.

He will marry a few ugly Arab wives and spawn a few dozen terrorists.

I am not sure if everyone here is aware, but he was 16 at the time of the murders, and while in prison, he was allowed to marry an Arab woman, have conjugal visits with her, and he ALREADY has a passel of spawns, compliments of the Israel morons. The spawns receive a stipend from the Israeli government as "children of a prisoner."

Israel keeps wanting to commit suicide. I don't understand it. I will not play along. I will not make excuses.

224 byzantium  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:36:47pm

I bet Susan Atkins is wishing she was Arab in Israel today.

225 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:39:18pm

re: #180 Biff

You have a completely corrupt government. If eastern europeans can march on their governments, so can you. If this happened in the US, there would be huge demonstrations. A third rate office breakdown took down Nixon. A blowjob almost took down Clinton. Olmert and Peres are surrendering your national dignity, and your land, and your children to Islamic terrorists, and all you can do is sit in your air conditioned apartments, read the JPost, and pray?


There is a small but growing movement calling for election reform in Israel. It was started by American immigrants. It would result in voters being able to vote for specific representatives, and a specific person for Prime Minister, as opposed to the current system, where voters vote in a party, and whatever schmuck is in the #1 position gets to be Prime Minister.

226 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:45:49pm

re: #208 Adina in Judea

Your list of previous prisoner exchanges shows that the deal made today (as awful as it was) was far less drastic than previous prisoner exchange deals have been. In 1983, almost 5000 prisoners were released in exchange for 8 soldiers, for example.

The IDF had helicopters standing by to take the soldiers to hospitals today in case they were returned alive. It seems to me that the Israeli government didn't know for sure whether they were dead or alive (despite the recent talk of assumptions that the soldiers were dead.)

Again, I don't like the deal that was made today, but I really suspect that the government didn't know the soldiers' conditions for certain. This does have an impact on the situation, if so. It's still a horrible deal, but it does explain a bit more about why the deal went through.

No, it doesn't explain it -- it rather raises the question of WHY we are making deals based on inadequate or deliberately witheld information. We allowed Hezbullah to monkey with us, to keep us on the edge of our seats. How f!cking absurd that we made such a deal not knowing whether the soldiers were dead or alive! Doesn't anyone see the INSANITY of that? And the Hezbullah spokesperson relished being able to say, "For two years, you did not know their fate. Now you know their fate." What a despicable swine. How humiliating for Israel. We should have never made any deal without proof of life or death.

227 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:49:51pm

re: #221 American Jewess In Jerusalem

The Whore Shas is the main culprit.

Shas is absolute scum.

Olmert is honest and reputable compared to Shas.

He couldn't have made it more clear prior to the last election. He said that Israel was tired of winning -Israelis voted for him anyway- and he kept his promise.

Be glad you have an American passport.

228 sultan_knish  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:53:45pm

re: #180 Biff

You have a completely corrupt government. If eastern europeans can march on their governments, so can you. If this happened in the US, there would be huge demonstrations. A third rate office breakdown took down Nixon. A blowjob almost took down Clinton. Olmert and Peres are surrendering your national dignity, and your land, and your children to Islamic terrorists, and all you can do is sit in your air conditioned apartments, read the JPost, and pray?

There have been massive rallies of hundreds of thousands of people against the Olmert government. That's a huge amount for a country the size of Israel. There are teenage girls sitting in prison for months simply for participating in civil disobedience against the government.

What that has done is entrenched the current parties sitting in the Knesset/Parliament's avoidance of new elections, because they know what will happen to them.

For the record, if Obama gets into office and begins following a similar course, do you seriously believe national rallies are going to stop him?

Democracy is controlled by elections. To change things Israel needs new elections. Unfortunately the same people spreading around big money here to push Obama, did the same thing with Olmert/Kadima, which is why Israel is in this mess in the first place.

229 sultan_knish  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 12:59:15pm

I realize there's a great deal of anger and frustration here and anti-Jihadist sites at seeing Israel act like this, but Israel is stuck under a corrupt left wing government.

It's the way the United States acted under Carter and will act under Obama. There is a great deal of outrage and frustration among Israelis, something you will generally not see reported in any English language media.

Just as when the soldier who shot the Jerusalem bulldozer terrorist and the student who shot the Yeshiva terrorist blamed the government, it did not get reported.

There is a strong extra-governmental opposition that the press usually dismisses as "right wing extremists" and does not report on. That opposition has plans for the elections and a growing coalition. There have been protests in the hundreds of thousands against Olmert's government. There are teenage girls with indefinite prison sentences for civil disobedience. There is a lot going on in Israel that will not be reported in the mainstream media.

And that's something Americans need to understand. The media is painting a limited picture that fits its own agenda.

230 sultan_knish  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:02:02pm

re: #134 NY Nana

I have to wonder if there is anyone in State who is not anti-Israel.

Condi must be smirking.

I believe he just got sentenced to a year in jail.

231 J. Lichty  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:04:09pm

Its funny, we talk about evicting the government of Israel as if it is a non-chalance, but in America, we are stuck with the government for at least 4 years with only the rarest (impeachment) chance of changing it.

That is not to say that this government has any mandate to remain in power. Olmert should have resigned after the Lebanon debacle, but we do need to keep it in perspective as the Israeli voters will no doubt do when they can next be heard (if Olmert does not suspend elections by then and declare martial law (only half joking)).

232 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:09:20pm

re: #230 sultan_knish

I believe he just got sentenced to a year in jail.

/Only a year?

233 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:17:47pm

re: #231 J. Lichty

There is a big difference.

In a parliamentary system such as Israel, if the "representatives of the people" were truly interested in the welfare of the people- and the Nation- they would trade their jobs for decency and force all these scumbags out of office.

But that won't occur.

And in the next election even where the middle fooled by Kadima might now vote Right, the religious will still lease their minds to their Rabbis and again vote for garbage like the Shas party.

234 Grumpy  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:20:19pm

Lebanon is destined to be fucked over forever.
Its that rare combination - part french/part arab, which guarantees itself the role of whore amongst nations.
They are (Lebenese) about to crown nasrallah as their new whoremaster, after having to bid a sad farewell to their previous pimp al asad.
They richly deserve hisbolla and the fate that awaits them.
they have welcomed in this whoremonger with open legs.

235 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:20:20pm

re: #231 J. Lichty

The party-list system, rather than a true representational system, is the major culprit in Israel.

MK's owe their seats, their allegiance, and their Volvo's (whores that they are) to the party bosses, rather than to constituents.

236 protestshooter  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:21:08pm

re: #160 Sunlight

Ah... the old "the Jews had it coming" argument... means you don't have to face the hard things and competing claims (parents and reservists vs. common sense non-negotiation with the creeps in the neighborhood). Makes it much easier to just throw them to the wolves. History repeats...

That was an INCREDIBLY offensive comment and you should be ashamed of yourself.

237 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:26:19pm

re: #234 Grumpy

The Lebanese are savages, as they proved in their own (un)civil war, where they sliced and diced each other up for 10 years.

The veneer of French (or any) civilization among these people is thin enough to see the faces of Baal, to whom their ancestors sacrificed their children.

It is that savagery that allows Nasrallah to hold and trade human body parts for concessions, and crow about the 'weakness' and 'defeat' of his enemies when they give in to his demands.

And it is what allows the remainder of the Lebanese to either go along with this or see it as acceptable politicking.

Again, they are human beings in only the strictest biological sense.

They are true savages.

238 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:35:50pm

re: #231 J. Lichty

Government is not my area of expertise, but as I understand it, the parliamentary system does make it possible to oust a government at any time, unlike in America, where an elected president gets to serve out his term. We have had many short-lived governments here in Israel, but it requires members of Knesset to voluntarily relinquish their seats in order to bring the government down. No one wants to give up their little bit of power. So deals are made, usually with the Whore Shas, who is always a powerful player on teh Israeli political scene, and coalitions are preserved.

I am disturbed by the inaction and apparent apathy of teh Israeli people. I am disturbed that they elected Kadima to begin with.

Any Israelis here need to PLEASE sign the election reform petitions that are going around. Perhaps we can make a difference. [Link: www.cepac.org.il...]

239 J. Lichty  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:47:20pm

re: #235 Maine's Michael

The party-list system, rather than a true representational system, is the major culprit in Israel.

MK's owe their seats, their allegiance, and their Volvo's (whores that they are) to the party bosses, rather than to constituents.

Sadly, I don't need that Israeli government civics lessons and I am unfortunately all too familiar with the problems of the parliamentary system in Israel. I was not meaning to defend the parliamentary system, especially Israel's system of no direct representation. I think it is terrible and this axis of corruption in charge of Israel right now highlights the brokenness of that system.
I think Israel would be well served by a proportional representation system where the politicians are accountable to constiutents instead of parties.

I was just pointing out that there is one redeeming feature of it and that is the ability to, when the government loses its mandate, to stop athwart and get it out of there. We will not have that luxury when those who vote to elect the Lightworker have buyers remorse after his first dozen or so blunders in the first two months of his presidency.

I think the Israeli system which gets held hostage by special interests such as Shas or the pensioners and devlish coalitions which put a grid lock on any legislative agenda and sap the country of any foreign policy coherence is broken and needs to go, but at least they can in more than theory stop the bleeding before the next scheduled election - something we will not be able to do with the Messiah.

240 Grumpy  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 1:50:44pm

re #237.

Wish I had your turn of phrase, instead of my crude symbolism.
You have concisely summed up, what for me is an intensely depressing situation ie Israel vs its arab neighbours (hardly the right word ie neighbours, to describe those that plan/plot daily to destroy the land and its peoples)

Militarily speaking the world is not ready for the type of war that should be fought in the middle east - ie the take NO prisoners type of war. Israel, to win in Lebanon (or Gaza) would have to treat all sectors of the population as hostile, instead of having to 'slice and dice' its way through certain areas/groupings, and in so doing incur many more battle casualties. Afterall looks like the entire Lebenese population are right behind nasralla/hisbolla (even some of the Christian Phalange.)

Maybe this episode will start to mentally back Israel into a corner, which is when historically it fight best.

241 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:09:58pm

re: #239 J. Lichty

It's fucked up, that is for sure.

As for Obama, I am surprised you don;t believe that this manifestation of God on Earth will not be able to solve our problems.

You just have to believe!

If you believe, then, then, you believe!

242 Dom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:11:24pm

I can't express the despair I feel. These terrorists should be poisoned prior to their release.

243 CLLRusso  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:26:59pm

I hope to hell Israel has a "Munich" type operation already in action to hunt down the terrorist they just released, and remember they are God's chosen people, not members of the EU that despise them no matter what they do!

And a word about the useless UN and the new Moonie idiot from Korea, they should keep their oil clogged mouths shut!

244 J.S.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:27:34pm

some time ago, I recall seeing on the History Channel a film on the Rescue at Entebbe (when that French plane was hijacked by terrorists and flown to Uganda, circa 1976). Just a prior to the daring rescue mission, (I believe it was the day before), Rabin announced that he was intending to negotiate with the terrorists. The film then showed actual documentary news-reels showing the reaction of the people in Israel -- it was unbelievable -- their was a massive protest -- people were out in the streets, women screaming/tearing their hair...and the rage was a consequence of the Prime Minister merely suggesting that there might be negotiations with terrorists (in reality, Rabin was stalling for time). If one compares then with now -- you have to wonder what's happened?

245 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:29:33pm

re: #240 Grumpy

You are correct.


I often marvel at how Ahmadinejad's hatred of Israel is so visceral, and so rooted in his 'holy book' - and at his biblical-style threats, which sound almost cartoonish or movievillain-like to modern ears - except he means what he says and functions in the real world. He is a biblical-style enemy of the Jews, worse than the apocryphal Haman, who was a petty political operative by comparison.

These are voices out of the past - from peoples untouched by modern (judeo-christian) or budhist conceptions of humanity.


Israeli's enemies are the spiritual descendants of the Amalekites, and only biblical style punishments can have any effect.

246 CLLRusso  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:35:18pm

re: #239 J. Lichty

But how is this system an advantage when apparently thanks to the corrupt religious Shas in order to get more money for their welfare ranks they hold the entire country hostage by supporting Olmert? Looks like someone will have to shoot the bastard, and Peres, and that despicable Barak, "lets give them more of Israel!" to get them out of office.

I don't think I want violence but darn, I am so angry. This is open season on any IDF soldier anywhere!

247 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:45:06pm

re: #109 Alouette

Not the same thing, is it.

248 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:49:26pm

re: #124 Syrah

Lebanon is not the enemy. The Lebanese who are sickened by Kuntar and Hizb'allah (yes, there are many) aren't quite stupid enough to parade that fact too loudly.

Who would get their backs?

249 Adina in Judea  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 2:52:11pm

As bad a day as today has been, one thing we need to keep in mind is that Samir Kuntar has been described for a long time as a "bargaining chip" for the freedom of Ron Arad who was captured in 1986. This means that the Israeli government (and many Prime Ministers along the way) have been willing to release this one particular man (Kuntar) in exchange for Ron Arad. So this wasn't something out of the blue that Kuntar could be released.

It's still an awful situation, but I think the Israeli national suspense about the fates and possible ongoing suffering of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev were matters that the government felt needed to be resolved without waiting another 20 (or 40) years - especially since it's been in the plans to release Kuntar for a long time in a similar deal.

What I usually notice most in all this is the views of Israeli voters. According to the polls, Jews in Israel seem more aware of the true nature of our enemies than the government has been for a long time. When the enemy and their civilians taunt Israel and pass out candies at the news of Israeli soldiers' deaths, I think it gives voters another bit of information about who we're dealing with. This will have an impact on who will be elected in Israel in the future. Olmert is on his way out. It will be nice when Israel's time stops being wasted with his scandals and the endless phony peace talks.

250 Adina in Judea  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:06:41pm

re: #238 American Jewess In Jerusalem

I am disturbed by the inaction and apparent apathy of teh Israeli people. I am disturbed that they elected Kadima to begin with.

Remember the situation when Kadima was elected, though. Likud had split and Ariel Sharon was still very popular. He won the election for Kadima while in a coma. It wasn't a victory for Olmert.

Israelis are still optimistic about their lives and more skeptical than ever about "peace" talks. Israelis know what's going on with our enemies (while still being optimistic and happy about life, overall.)

It isn't a bad sign that Israelis aren't marching in the streets to demand Olmert's resignation, in my opinion. It seems to me that everyone is waiting to see what will happen with Iran (and also to see when Israel's parties will have the guts to go to elections.) All these things are coming and I think Israelis are bracing for them.

251 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:09:20pm

re: #159 Alibaba

They have been examined. And the IDF knew they were dead before the swap was concluded.

re: #201 2senseplain

Thank you.

252 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:15:10pm

Ynet. 6/29/08

The main details included in the reports were published by Yedioth Ahronoth on Sunday.

"During the incident and the injury, the (first) missing soldier was wearing the examined bullet-proof vest. The damage caused to the car and to the bullet-proof vest is compatible with the firing of RPG bombs. Therefore, it should be concluded that the injuries to the missing soldier's body were caused by a hollow explosive device.

"When the damaged bullet-proof vest was worn by a man whose body structure is similar to that of the missing soldier, we discovered that the injury was caused to the upper part of the chest. The injury caused to the missing soldier could be extensive loss of blood, direct damage to the organs and minor injury from shrapnel.

"Such an injury, as described, is a grave injury in any given situation, which requires urgent and complex surgical treatment. The chance for a person to survive such an injury without receiving immediate complex medical treatment, which requires specialized surgical skills (namely, in an operating room) are close to zero."

Mossad and Military Intelligence officials presented the chief military
rabbi with information suggesting the car carrying the abducted troops arrived at a place where they could have received medical treatment (although not of very high quality), bit that the vehicles left the area less than an hour later. According to Medical Corps officials, this period of time was not enough to stabilize the situation of the seriously injured soldier.

'The slightest chance soldier survived' As for the second captive, the report said that "his blood was found on the doorsill, on the ground and on the equipment tossed outside. This goes to show that the missing soldier was injured inside the car.

"In addition, the blood stains found on the side of the equipment
compartment on the left point to shots fired from a weapon with high muzzle velocity as the soldier was standing outside the vehicle. The soldier is believed to have lost a lot of blood inside the vehicle. The large amount of blood near the vehicle points to the place where he collapsed. This indicates massive bleeding, apparently from a large blood vessel.

"A double injury (by RPG and high-speed bullets) to the upper part of the body is a serious injury in any given situation and requires urgent and complex surgical treatment. It is uncertain whether the missing soldier survived the initial attack, and if the shots were fired at his chest, the chances he survived are very small. Therefore, the missing soldier was at least seriously injured, and his condition may be even more critical."

253 CLLRusso  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 3:32:18pm

re: #238 American Jewess In Jerusalem
Dear God! I can not get over the fact that at Israel's expense that bastard was allowed to marry, just like Rabin's murderer! What kind of rational is that? The "guys just gotta have sex and deserve it no matter what hideous crimes they commit" theory?

No wonder Israeli men are so- so- aggressive.

254 sultan_knish  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:19:06pm

re: #246 CLLRusso

the system is not fundamentally different than Congress where pork has to be added to bills to get them to pass

in Israel though the deals are more likely to be made by a party leader, rather than an influential Senator or a congressman on a particular committee

255 sultan_knish  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:20:54pm

re: #249 Adina in Judea

Adina that simply doesn't work

what this release does is insure future such kidnapping attempts and without even receiving anything in return but bodies.

it's not a good sign that there aren't that many notable protests lately, it's a sign of defeatism

256 sultan_knish  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:21:56pm

Israelis are far from quiet though,

note this video of Olmert's speech to his own party members being disrupted by the parents of soldiers

257 kyros  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:22:33pm

unbelievable! I cringed when I read what this child killer did.

258 Adina in Judea  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:44:13pm

re: #255 sultan_knish

what this release does is insure future such kidnapping attempts and without even receiving anything in return but bodies.

Kidnapping attempts are already an ongoing problem. Many such attempts have been thwarted in and near Gaza in particular in the last few years. The enemy has been saying for years that the only answer to getting their fellow murderers out of prison is to kidnap Israeli soldiers.

It would be defeatist for Israel to conduct hostage negotiations on the basis of trying to make deals for future kidnappings go more smoothly. It's better to prevent them from happening (as suicide bombings have been addressed and mostly prevented in the last four years.) Few thought there could be a solution to suicide bombings, after all.

Israel has gotten closure for these two soldiers for now. Nothing is finished in the war with Hezbollah. They are acting as if they have conquered Israel, but there will be an answer to their tactic of firing rockets at Israel while deeply embedded among their own people for cover. Israel will not lay down and die forever (G-d forbid) to protect other people's human shields.

Closure on this one issue is something most Israelis wanted. It was a move approved by a majority of Israelis. It isn't the end of anything. Of course, it's disappointing and upsetting, but Israelis wanted closure on this case and it's happened. So Israel will mourn and then deal with this.

259 J.S.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:44:21pm

re: #255 sultan_knish

I agree, it sends the wrong message to terrorists -- it's telling them that "Murder pays!" that's the message. Again, it's just unbelievable that Israel would demonstrate such a level of ... (I'll have to self delete here).

260 Quana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:44:22pm

#244 J.S.

"...and the rage was a consequence of the Prime Minister merely suggesting that there might be negotiations with terrorists (in reality, Rabin was stalling for time). If one compares then with now -- you have to wonder what's happened?"

Distraction.

This entire interchange is awful. Disgusting. It does appear to ensure the deaths of more Israelis. What could they be thinking?

Distraction.

Olmert indicates his agreement to not run in the Kadima primary. Barak may be the man.

Is there more than one wild card in the mix?

Congress just passed FISA. Obama voted "yes".

Are nations stockpiling oil as prices rise and people drive less?

New moon on 30 AUG. Ramadan starts.

Senate confirms General Petraus as Commander of US forces in the Middle East.

Where are the carriers?

New moon on 29 SEP. Ramadan ends.

China has backed limited sanctions on Iran. Negotiations continue.

Have we entered the famous 6x2 week window?

Dead soldiers for live psychopaths...keeps eyes riveted on the terrible exchange.

261 bbuddha  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:48:31pm

I know this has been said but it bears repeating.....negotiating with terrorists and making deals for swaps simply puts more people at risk. Now that they know for sure that they can get live prisoners for coffins it will be even worse. These terrorists are pure evil and we as civilized people should have NO congress with them.

262 Adina in Judea  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 4:50:20pm

Everything Israel does and doesn't do is seen as a "message" to terrorists to kill, maim, destroy, commit suicide, sacrifice their children, kill, maim, kill and maim. It's what they do.

Israel is Jewish. This is enough reason for everything the terrorists will ever want to do. The more they die or don't die, the more they want to die to kill Jews. It's their anti-Jew psychosis and it will never go away.

Sometimes Israel has to get closure on something and then move on.

263 J.S.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:22:35pm

re: #262 Adina in Judea

You sound totally defeatist. So it's "closure" at all costs? Is that it? And no "message" sent to terrorists makes any difference? So executing terrorists versus rewarding terrorists with monetary payments, pension plans and plenty of females -- that's all one and the same? You don't see any difference here? You make no distinction between smiling and admiring and fawning over mass murderers vs punishing them? There's no difference? It's all "one and the same" so long as there's "closure"? (Frankly, that sounds pretty suicidal)...just sayin'

264 grumpy old codger  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:27:19pm

re: #233 Opinionated
The first duty of any politician in any political system is to get reelected. PERIOD. Those bozos in the Knesset are no different from Congress. Unfortunately.

265 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:35:04pm

re: #45 protestshooter

ESAD.

266 Adina in Judea  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:46:07pm

re: #263 J.S.

You sound totally defeatist. So it's "closure" at all costs? Is that it?

Samir Kuntar was planned to be released in exchange for Ron Arad. After all these years, he's been released for Regev and Goldwasser to put this more recent matter to an end. This isn't "at all costs."

If Israel fights Hezbollah again (which is very likely), this matter won't interfere. Israel now has closure for two soldiers who died two years ago.

So executing terrorists versus rewarding terrorists with monetary payments, pension plans and plenty of females -- that's all one and the same?

I prefer to see terrorists executed. Absolutely.

Unless you have a time machine handy, Kuntar is alive and he's been released by Israel for closure (as he has been expected to be released in exchange for for Ron Arad for a long, long time.) It isn't the end of the world.

You make no distinction between smiling and admiring and fawning over mass murderers vs punishing them? There's no difference? It's all "one and the same" so long as there's "closure"?

I am Adina, not the person you've invented to take my place here.

(Frankly, that sounds pretty suicidal)...just sayin'

Just putting things into perspective. I don't like the deal, but it's done and Israel has to move on.

This exchange was supported by the majority of Israelis. If you don't like the word "closure" for what Israelis wanted, then pick another word. The world still hasn't ended and the war with Hezbollah hasn't ended either. Samir Kuntar is a 46 year old fat guy today rather than a 16 year old raving lunatic murderer (as he was when he was arrested years ago.) He was designated to be released in exchange for Ron Arad. A different deal was made instead. It's happened.

267 J.S.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:55:34pm

re: #266 Adina in Judea

I'm glad to hear that you believe terrorists should be executed. I am in agreement. Then, any "exchanges" in the future could be the exchange of coffins..and that's it. Nothing more. No rewarding terrorists for murdering children. (And, I don't care how many are in favor or how many are in agreement with such "transactions" -- or X number are "in support" -- it doesn't matter. I don't want to see murderers alive and well and crowing about their filthy deeds...they should be in a graveyard, that's where they belong.)

268 Adina in Judea  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:56pm

re: #267 J.S.

I'm glad to hear that you believe terrorists should be executed.

Of course I do! It's something I doubt Israel will ever do, though (i.e., make use of Israel's death penalty in the fight against terrorism.)

Targeted killings of terrorists help.

269 J.S.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:53pm

re: #268 Adina in Judea

Yep, I don't see Israel changing its laws anytime soon (regarding executions)...that's unfortunate (imo)...(Oh, Natan Sharansky was on Glenn Beck this evening -- Natan considers the prisoner swap for coffins to be a mistake, considers it to be an encouragement for terrorists, and says he voted against it...but majority rules...etc.)

270 eric_odessit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:44pm

This story actually makes my blood boil. Could a body be exchanged for bodies? What would have been wrong with a J-DAM hitting a getaway car of the terrorists? This way the bodies would have been returned and the terrorists would have been dead.
Eric.

271 ReneeJoy  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:37pm

The only thing that makes sense about this exchange is that there's stuff going on in the background that we don't know about. Gosh, I sure do miss Ariel.

272 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:39:28pm

Late poster but I must say that after this I do not think there will very many terrorist taken alive in Israel anymore.

Not that there is. It seems most of them are homicide bombers now.

POS Kuntar will get his 15 minutes of "fame" in Gaza and then he'll realize that he's stuck in the efluent-floodded corrupt Hamas made hell hole just like all of the rest of the Pioneers of Tomorrow.

In a year he will want out and that hero status will work as well as it did in prison.

And this time it will be his own Arab brothers that will keep him there.

273 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:55:37pm

re: #272 unclassifiable

POS Kuntar isn't in Gaza. He's in Lebanon.

Try again.

274 elrushbuni  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:14:31pm

re: #183 Sunlight

Yeah and they're mostly all democrats.

275 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:14:58pm

re: #273 Lynn B.

Sorry Lynn B. Your right. My mistake.

That's even worse.

I guess I let my anger get ahead of the facts.

276 sultan_knish  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:30:26pm

re: #266 Adina in Judea

Adina, you're trying to put the best face on a bad situation, which many are trying to do now. But it unworkable.

The exchange has not only provided motivation for kidnappings, it means that the kidnappers NO LONGER EVEN NEED TO KEEP THEIR HOSTAGES ALIVE

Israel has demonstrated that it will make the same trade for the dead as for the living

277 Lynn B.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:32:39pm

re: #275 unclassifiable

S'ok. I think that's happening to a lot of us today.

278 Adina in Judea  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:53:01pm

re: #276 sultan_knish

The exchange has not only provided motivation for kidnappings, it means that the kidnappers NO LONGER EVEN NEED TO KEEP THEIR HOSTAGES ALIVE

Israel has demonstrated that it will make the same trade for the dead as for the living

Sultan, please keep in mind that yesterday's deal is awful, but it's not nearly as bad as deals that Israel has done in the last 30 years or so (as outlined in #25):

July 1996: 20 Hezballah terrorists and 123 bodies exchanged for two bodies of IDF soldiers killed in Lebanon 10 years earlier.

June 1998: 60 lebanese and 40 bodies exchanged for the body of an IDF soldier.

November 2003: 400 terrorists (including sheikh Obeid and Dirani, senior figures in Hezballah and Amal) released with 59 bodies in exchange for 3 bodies of IDF soldiers and Elhanan Tannenbaum, a reserve colonel.

Obviously, this is something that Israel should not have been doing for almost 30 years including the exchange done yesterday, but it certainly isn't anything new that terrorists can say Israel has never done until now.

All I'm trying to say here is that although it's a bad decision, Israel did this with the support of the majority of Israelis who wanted closure for this particular hostage situation. Israel will have to move on and deal with things as they stand now. There are so many things going on in Israel right now - and on too many fronts. Issues with Iran are pending along with possible wars with Iran's proxies (north and south.)

Israel also has political problems in a situation where most of the various political parties don't want to face elections right now (especially during the summer.) I think it's time to take a deep breath or two. Israel has to move on from this hostage situation in order to face everything else that Israel has to face right now. That's all I wanted to say.

279 Adina in Judea  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:56:30pm

P.S. tzefa in #25 listed almost 30 years worth of prisoner exchanges.

I only quoted some recent ones that were done to retrieve dead soldiers.

280 eric_odessit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:25:27pm

So, back to my question: can please somebody explain to me what would be bad about killing the terrorists post-exchange? The soldiers are already dead, and they will kill anybody they kidnap in the future anyway.
Eric.

281 insomniac  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 4:05:51am
A Hero's Welcome in Lebanon for a Child Killer

I wonder if the other terrorist and child killer, Dalal Mughrabi, was released too? But unlike Samir Kuntar, Dalal Mughrabi was killed during her terrorist attack in 1978 which killed 36 people and wounded 71. Dalal Mughrabi was infamous for throwing a child into a burning bus in that terrorist attack.

She is a hero among the Palestinians. Schools and institutios have been named after her. An article in a Palestinian Authority funded newspaper hailed Mughrabi as a "living legend and a wonderful example for all women........that someone like her deserved to be buried next to Yasser Arafat's grave in Ramallah."

Dalal Mugrabi's sister's interview, praising the recent bulldozer terrorist in Jerusalem, was the subject of a an lgf post..... Al Jazeera TV Idolizes Mass Murderers

Another infamous terrorist who is a hero in lebanon is Kozo Okamoto. He is the only surviving member of the Japanese Red Army who took part in the Lod Airport massacre in Israel in 1972. The attack by the JRA was carried out on behalf of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestime (PFLP).....26 were killed and 78 ijnured.

Okamoto was released in 1985 as part of a prisoner exchange with the PFLP-GC......1150 prisoners were exchanged for three Israeli soldiers. Later, Okamoto would be granted political asylum Lebanon......for the first time ever in that country, because of his ''uncompromising struggle against Israel - as was declared. Several other JRA members in lebanon were deported to Jordan and from there extradited to Japan.

It's a damning indictment of the Lebanese and Palestinians who glorify cold blooded murderers of Jews and children and other innocent people.

282 zulubaby  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 4:38:26am

re: #200 Spiny Norman

Why are you trying to provoke a fight? She's as frustrated by today's events as much as anyone else.

Thanks.

283 fenris  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 5:36:54am

Make no mistake, Israel paid too high a price for two soldier's bodies.

But Hizbullah and Lebanon paid too high a price too-

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

284 yellowroseoftexas  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 7:34:49pm

It's been several years since I posted here. I hardly ever keep up with event's in the mideast anymore,but I am so upset about this I just had to vent. I was horrified and heartbroken when I 1st read about these brutal killings,and how the babygirl was forced to watch her father shot and drowned and then how she begged for mercy from this evil killer who then beat her to death. I am sickened and disgusted beyond words this horrible baby killer was given a heroes welcome in Lebanon. There are literally no words to describe the disgust I feel towards the people who celebrated and cheered him. I wish they would all just die in a hail of fire and brimstone, like back in the days of the Old Testament when God smited Israel's enemies. If there's any Israelis reading this,I just want to say my heart goes out to you, I don't know how you stand it. I feel so sorry that good,decent people like you have to live next door to a bunch of rattlesnakes like these creatures.


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