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Pat Buchanan: 'Intelligent Design' Advocate

Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 5:48:15 pm PDT

When he isn’t writing antisemitic articles blaming high gas prices on Israel and AIPAC, or revisionist history defending Hitler’s invasion of Poland, or appearing on neo-Nazi radio shows, Pat Buchanan likes to attack the theory of evolution: Darwin’s Pyrrhic Victory by Pat Buchanan.

Darwinism claims, for example, that matter evolved from non-matter — i.e., something from nothing — that life evolved from non-life; that, through natural selection, rudimentary forms evolved into more complex forms; and that men are descended from animals or apes.

Now, all of this is unproven theory. And as the Darwinists have never been able to create matter out of non-matter or life out of non-life, or extract from the fossil record the “missing links” between species, what they are asking is that we accept it all on faith. And the response they are getting in the classroom and public forum is: “Prove it,” and, “Where is your evidence?”

And while Darwinism suggests our physical universe and its operations happened by chance and accident, intelligent design seems to comport more with what men can observe and reason to. ...

Darwinism is headed for the compost pile of discarded ideas because it cannot back up its claims. It must be taken on faith. It contains dogmas men may believe, but cannot stand the burden of proof, the acid of attack or the demands of science.

Where science says, “No miracles allowed,” Darwinism asks us to believe in miracles.

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960 comments

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1 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:50:14pm

Go Pat!

Not.

2 Shug  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:50:27pm

The words Intelligent and Pat Buchanan don't belong in the same sentence

3 smokin' hamster  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:50:27pm

Go away, Pat.

4 tripletdad  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:51:02pm

ugh...

5 Shug  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:51:20pm

A fossil commenting on fossils

6 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:52:09pm

Is there nothing Buchanan doesn't rail on about with blinkered pig-ignorance?

7 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:52:25pm

re: #5 Shug

A fossil commenting on fossils

I believe Pat is a coprolite...

8 mossley  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:52:33pm

I bet you PB couldn't accurately describe evolutionary theory if his life depended on it.

9 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:52:54pm

re: #7 coquimbojoe

I believe Pat is a coprolite...


LOL!

10 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:53:07pm

He has become a caricature.

11 leslein  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:53:30pm

"I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."

12 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:07pm

When Pat fell out of the Idiot Tree, he hit every branch on the way down.

13 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:12pm

re: #9 Spiny Norman

Hiya Spiny, glad I could make you smile.

14 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:19pm

Never interrupt someone when they are making a mistake......so you just keep talking Pat.

15 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:28pm

Darwinism claims, for example, that matter evolved from non-matter — i.e., something from nothing


Source please, Pat.

16 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:29pm

re: #11 leslein
He might stack the deck.

17 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:55:18pm

re: #15 BignJames
I don't remember that part in origin of the species.

18 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:55:46pm

re: #7 coquimbojoe

dino shit?

19 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:56:13pm

Pat needs to transition from paleocon to fossilocon.

20 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:56:44pm
Have these fellows forgotten that John Scopes, the teacher in that 1925 "Monkey Trial," lost in court, and was convicted of violating Tennessee law against the teaching of evolution and fined $100?

I'm not surprised buchanan would resort to revisionist history on Scopes just like he does with WWII. The Scopes trial was a set up from the beginning and the conviction overturned. And then there's the little thing of similar laws getting ruled unconstitutional.

21 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:56:59pm
Darwinism claims, for example, that matter evolved from non-matter — i.e., something from nothing

Matter = physics
Evolution = biology

Pat has Darwinism confused with the Big Bang theory. Sure glad he is not on our side.

22 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:57:07pm

re: #18 yochanan

dino shit?

Zactly.

23 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:58:46pm

I was hoping for a new thread. And it came! Oh, wait!

24 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:59:21pm

Someone should tell Buchanan that Darwin wasn't a Joooooooooo.

25 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:59:37pm

re: #23 VegasRick


'tis an evolving site.

26 doubleplusundead  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:00:16pm

re: #7 coquimbojoe

I believe Pat is a coprolite...

Coprophage, actually. Close though.

27 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:00:35pm

Years ago, Pat Buchanan was considered to be one of the most upright, conservative Catholics in D.C. He ran the Public Liaison Office in Reagan's second term, I believe, and had a reputation of being a straight-shooter who was both honest and non-political.

I'm not sure what happened. His antisemitic rhetoric was shocking. Being a fellow-traveler with skin-heads and white supremacists was also shocking.

Power may corrupt, but that's not what happened to Buchanan. What did happen -- the forces that altered his beliefs -- is unknown, at least to me.

28 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:00:45pm

This article is just weak- pat should stick to the topics he actually knows something about- like anti-Semitism.

29 mean Gene  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:00:57pm

There's a scene in the movie, The Abyss, where ''Hippy'' (the guy with the pet rat and all of the conspiracy theories tries to back up the woman who had seen ''something'' down there.
After a few minutes of hearing his wild rants she says to him, "Hippy, just stay off my side.''
I don't understand the difference between what I believe (some first cause Creation, then a whole lot of adaptation, geographic isolation and such*) and ID but I do know I wouldn't want Pat on my side.

*See.
I don't even care all that much because it is no big deal to me.
No children at home and irrelevant to me being close to my Creator.

30 NemoParticularis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:01:01pm

I'm delighted to see that Pat is as vociferous as ever and that TownHall still carries his columns. I think it's important that his particular brand of lunacy be aired out in the open so that thinking people can benefit from from it. Mr. Buchanan's sad spiral downward from conservative standardbearer to raving paleocon anti-semite is an object lesson for all. He is more to be pitied than laughed at.

31 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:02:06pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis

I'm delighted to see that Pat is as vociferous as ever and that TownHall still carries his columns. I think it's important that his particular brand of lunacy be aired out in the open so that thinking people can benefit from from it. Mr. Buchanan's sad spiral downward from conservative standardbearer to raving paleocon anti-semite is an object lesson for all. He is more to be pitied than laughed at.

Agreed. And he is pitiful.

32 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:02:45pm

o.t.
the effect of there being a state of Israel is that jews don't feel we have to kush'n touckas anymore. hopefully some will get used to jews being equal.

33 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:00pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis


You can pity him if you like...I'm gonna laugh.

34 HelloDare  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:11pm
Where science says, “No miracles allowed,” Darwinism asks us to believe in miracles.

The miracle is that Buchanan has any credibility left.

35 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:12pm

re: #7 coquimbojoe

I believe Pat is a coprolite...

He' still steaming, and stinkin'

36 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:14pm

Just received from a reader in Louisiana:

Just wanted to send a thanks for representing conservatives who are not creationists, or at least conservatives who agree that creationism should be kept in the church and out of the schools.

There may well be a time and a place for teaching ID, but it isn't in our classrooms funded by our taxes.

Thanks for showing that not all conservatives are painted with the same brush.

37 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:19pm

He' got the DI catechism down verbatim.

38 akak  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:29pm

Have MKH or Michelle Malkin commented on this yet?

39 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:20pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis

I disagree. He's trotted out as an actual conservative and that gives people the wrong idea. The left uses him to paint all conservatives as whacks, and republicans give this guy more validation because he's supposed to be one of us. He should be shunned by decent, thinking people everywhere and left in his own little corner to preach to the bigoted haters that are his real base.

40 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:25pm

From a Buchanan interview in 1999.

Q: Would you abolish the federal Department of Education? A: I would abolish those segments that deal with primary and secondary education. There is a federal role in higher education. We need to be first in science. That’s where I’d put some money. And [some funds] for scholarships; that’s a federal responsibility. But primary and secondary education, that belongs to mom, and pop, and the teacher, and the principal and the deputy principal.
Source: Interview on MSNBC’s “Equal Time” Nov 2, 1999

How utterly ignorant. We need to be first in science, so lets discredit evolution and teach Intelligent Design in science classes. As for neglecting primary and secondary education and focusing resources only in higher education, good luck with that. You can't ignore science for 12 years of schooling and think that students will somehow catch up in College.

41 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:44pm

I'm sorry for the great apes, that they happen to share an ancestor with such a morally vacuous rabble rouser as Buchanan. Cartoon, Thomas Nast:
[Link: www.britannica.com...]

42 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:47pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis

I'm delighted to see that Pat is as vociferous as ever and that TownHall still carries his columns. I think it's important that his particular brand of lunacy be aired out in the open so that thinking people can benefit from from it. Mr. Buchanan's sad spiral downward from conservative standardbearer to raving paleocon anti-semite is an object lesson for all. He is more to be pitied than laughed at.

Pat Buchanan was exposed years ago. No one who has been paying attention to his career has been under any delusions for a LONG time. William F. Buckley wrote a whole book about Buchanan and Joe Sobran.

There's no benefit whatsoever to have this creepy racist contributing to the public debate on any issues.

43 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:59pm
Darwinism is headed for the compost pile of discarded ideas because it cannot back up its claims.


150 years and counting. Bite me.

44 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:05:13pm

re: #36 Charles

Give this guy an account.

45 The Other Les  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:06:03pm

re: #1 Spiny Norman

Go Pat!

Not.

Go away Pat!

46 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:06:09pm

Along possibly related lines...

Spain: Peace and security to dominate faith summit

(Saudi officials chose Spain as the site for an inter-faith summit due to its symbolism as a place where Muslims, Christians and Jews lived peacefully for over 500 years. )

Madrid, 16 July (AKI) - World peace, security and the environment are among the main topics discussed at an inter-faith religious dialogue summit taking place in Spain on Wednesday.

The three-day conference is called The World Conference on Dialogue and is taking place in the Spanish capital, Madrid. It was attended by Saudi King Abdullah Bin-Abd-al-Aziz al-Saud and Spain's King Juan Carlos.

Among the topics dominating the agenda was Muslim-Christian-Jewish dialogue, as well as the need for diverse communities to live in peace. [...]

The conference is organised by the Muslim World League on the initiative of King Abdullah, whose country hosts Islam's two holiest shrines in Mecca and Medina.
[...]
Although representatives of the international Jewish community are at the conference, no Israeli is included in the list of guests listed on the official website of the conference. [...]

And from a related article: Spain: Saudi king to open inter-faith dialogue in Madrid

The Secretary General of the World Muslim League, Abdallah Bin Abdul Muhsin Al Turki said that the meeting is a "global invite" to dialogue "launched from Mecca".

47 Bobblehead  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:06:36pm

I always liked the word pyrrhic. Not so much anymore.

48 HelloDare  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:06:56pm

Sounds like something Homo ergaster would say.

49 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:02pm
" intelligent design seems to comport more with what men can observe and reason to...."

Horseshit.

Buchanan is a non-intelletual boob. Why this clown is afforded any respectability in any circles is beyond me. Now he's pontificating about science.

50 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:15pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

150 years and counting. Bite me.

Where do I buy tickets?
/

51 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:29pm

Buchnan is the kind of Christian that Kilgore & Yochanon were talking about on the last thread. Guys I beg you not to believe that this is Christianity. I am a very casual Christian , so it's not like I really have a dog in the fight. It is just what I have observed to be trfue

52 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:41pm

re: #37 Thanos

He' got the DI catechism down verbatim.

That's exactly what it is -- every point in this article is straight out of Discovery Institute propaganda.

53 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:18pm

re: #50 jcm

Admission to the British Museum of Natural History is free!

54 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:41pm

Proof of evolution... The Missing Link

55 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:44pm

re: #36 Charles

Just received from a reader in Louisiana:

Hear, hear!

56 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:45pm
57 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:50pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis

It's useful as light exposes evil. It shows how corrupted in thought and vision Buchanan is. Combined with who he chooses to associate with and the causes he writes about, and it's clear that he does the conservatives no favors by his presence.

58 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:09:05pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Admission to the British Museum of Natural History is free!

But seeing you get bit.........PRICELESS!

59 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:09:06pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

Oooh! Somebody called you nihilistic on the last thread....

60 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:09:12pm

re: #46 freetoken

Spain: Saudi king to open inter-faith dialogue in Madrid

In Madrid, because we can't have those Christians and Jews soiling holy Saudi Arabia.

61 stuiec  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:24pm
or extract from the fossil record the “missing links” between species

What Darwin could not foresee -- and what idiots like Buchanan either do not or refuse to understand -- is that many of the "missing links" in the fossil record are nevertheless evident in the genetic record. DNA (and mitochondrial RNA) carries a history of the species, including many traces of previous stages of evolution.

62 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:32pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

Arrgh! Accidental down-ding on aisle 39. Will someone please correct my mistake?

63 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:47pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

KT,

You still looking for a house?

64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:49pm

I am a Christian. I love Pat Buchanan.

I am not required to like him though.

65 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:58pm

I don't think Buchanan knows what pyrrhic means. He might not have read the Dover trial decision, or maybe he doesn't understand the concept of legal precedent.

66 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:16pm

re: #60 Opinionated

It was so nice of the Saudi king to host that interfaith dialogue. In Spain.

Because he wouldn't allow the infidel to come into his country and visit (as if they'd be welcome or want to come and see what you've done with the place with our money).

67 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:19pm
68 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:23pm

re: #62 Slumbering Behemoth

Arrgh! Accidental down-ding on aisle 39. Will someone please correct my mistake?


Yeah, but it'll cost ya.

69 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:25pm

re: #56 buzzsawmonkey

Somehow I don't think Buchanan is the Pat in "Pat the Bunny."

Do you know why David Duke watched to movie 'Deep Throat' 20 times?

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

Wait for it

*

*

So he could get it down pat.....

70 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:30pm

As if I needed yet another reason to consider Buchanan an absolute faux-intellectual ass.

71 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:51pm

re: #59 coquimbojoe

Oooh! Somebody called you nihilistic on the last thread....

We all know he's far worse....
A luthier.
/ ;-P

72 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:12:01pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


I'm a sinner...I don't love the sob.

73 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:12:47pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

that is the difference I AM NOT REQUIRED TO LOVE MY ENIMIES.

74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:08pm

re: #72 BignJames

heh

75 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:26pm

Question: Aside from Buddhism, are there any mainstream religions that are flexible enough to embrace scientific discovery without it compromising their doctrines on God and the origins of the universe?

I'm not talking about religions that merely refuse to confront the contradictions revealed by science,

76 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:27pm

re: #73 yochanan

that is the difference I AM NOT REQUIRED TO LOVE MY ENIMIES.

But you love the White Sox. Yeah baby!

77 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:40pm

re: #67 buzzsawmonkey

re: #60 Opinionated

This is the conference which was discussed on NPR this morning, where NPR commentator John Hockenberry referred to Spain as "formerly Muslim land."

I hope he didn't give Condi Rice any ideas.

78 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:48pm

re: #69 coquimbojoe


damn you i wasted some good chimay ale on that ROFLMAO FUNNY.

79 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:14:36pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am a Christian. I love Pat Buchanan.

I am not required to like him though.

I'm a Jew. I despise the POS.

80 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:15:02pm

re: #76 opnion

LIKE THE PALE HOSE YEAH LOVE WELL THAT IS A STRETCH.

81 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:15:07pm

I went to Sunday school, church and when it comes to asshats like Buchanan and terrorist scum I am definetly Old testament. None of this love your enemies stuff, sorry.

82 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:15:25pm

What is the dre: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Being Jewish, and NOT required to love my enemies, I'd like to ask if there is there a point at which "love thy enemy" no longer applies? And if so, hasn't Buchanan reached that point long ago?

83 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:15:28pm

SPELL CHECK SURE HELPS WHEN YOU ARE DOING CHIMAY ALE

84 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:02pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am a Christian. I love Pat Buchanan.

I am not required to like him though.

But you're a vegetarian. Isn't Pat meat?

85 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:28pm

re: #80 yochanan

LIKE THE PALE HOSE YEAH LOVE WELL THAT IS A STRETCH.

You my friend are my brother in Soxitude.
I am surounded by Cubishness. I need you to get my back.

86 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:35pm

Charles is doing conservatives a great favor by allowing us to publicly declare that we find Buchanan's views offensive and backwards. I want it on record that this wacko does not speak for me, and I would vote him off the island if I could.

Patrick, get help!

87 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:47pm

re: #82 paradox42

I can love my friends being a normal human i can't love my enimies.

f''k um

88 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:53pm

re: #18 yochanan

dino shit?

"yo" -

After eating his "Shlump" - DINO - might just have "POOPED" that. Yabba-Dabba-Doo!

-S-

89 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:53pm
Now, all of this is unproven theory. And as the Darwinists have never been able to create matter out of non-matter or life out of non-life, or extract from the fossil record the “missing links” between species, what they are asking is that we accept it all on faith. And the response they are getting in the classroom and public forum is: “Prove it,” and, “Where is your evidence?”

Gaah! I'm so completely weary of the whole hackneyed "Evolution is just a theory, so the ID theory is just as viable!" argumentative crock. Sorry ID folks, but trying to promote ID by attempting to poke holes in evolutionary theory doesn't prove ID correct by default.

90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:15pm

re: #84 Alouette

But you're a vegetarian. Isn't Pat meat?

Just who do you think I am? David Duke?

91 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:19pm

re: #63 jcm

KT,

You still looking for a house?

Those homes were great! Was it you that suggested the book, Back to Basics? If so, thanks. I got it from Amazon and have marked up every page. If not, ignore this.

92 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:38pm

If Aristotle were around today, he's slap old Pat silly.
Hard.

93 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:44pm

conseratives are not a echo chamber like the liberal elite.

94 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:55pm

re: #65 jaunte

I don't think Buchanan knows what pyrrhic means. He might not have read the Dover trial decision, or maybe he doesn't understand the concept of legal precedent.

I think buchanan doesn't understand a lot of things- such as evolution, OOL, the scientific method, the Constitution, why bigotry is wrong, etc.

95 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:18:26pm

re: #86 DistantThunder

Charles is doing conservatives a great favor by allowing us to publicly declare that we find Buchanan's views offensive and backwards. I want it on record that this wacko does not speak for me, and I would vote him off the island if I could.

Patrick, get help!

Don't vote him off, you want someone fat and slow around when the cannibals show up.

96 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:18:43pm

Betcha Pat ain't gonna make that failed leap of logic that Darwin caused the Holocaust.

It likely wouldn't fit in with well with the rest of his revisionist history lessons.

97 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:19:19pm

pat PUKEANAN IS LOWER THAN A SNAKE a snake crawls on its own belly PAT PUKEANAN ISN'T PICKY

98 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:19:27pm

re: #83 yochanan

SPELL CHECK SURE HELPS WHEN YOU ARE DOING CHIMAY ALE

"yo" -

Belgian Ale - Tastes Very Good - AND - Same effect as "Ghetto Beer" at 4x the price. L'chaim!

-S-

99 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:19:38pm

re: #89 StinkHammer

Gaah! I'm so completely weary of the whole hackneyed "Evolution is just a theory, so the ID theory is just as viable!" argumentative crock. Sorry ID folks, but trying to promote ID by attempting to poke holes in evolutionary theory doesn't prove ID correct by default.


Here is the thing. Evolution is demostrable. Did Darwin have every detail correct ? Of course not. That does not debunk evolution.

100 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:19:46pm

re: #94 Sharmuta

I don't understand how he ever became a 'pundit.' He just seems like some guy ranting at the end of the bar.

101 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:20:17pm

re: #95 jcm

Don't vote him off, you want someone fat and slow around when the cannibals show up.

He's the kind of slime that expect the cannibals to eat him last. Traitor.

102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:20:19pm

Has Pat simply found a new source of funding?

103 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:21:05pm

re: #102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Has Pat simply found a new source of funding?

Bingo.......follow the stench of Saudi money, what do you bet?

104 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:21:42pm

re: #62 Slumbering Behemoth

I would if I hadn't already dinged it up.

105 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:21:51pm

Pat is another version of the "tear it all down so the we can have a chance" school of polemic.

Racist scum, troofers, Birchers, the whole gamut of alienated whites whom Pat will lead to the promise land once things a so fouled up that we will beg him and his ilk for salvation (so he thinks).

It would not surprise me if he was rooting for an Obama victory just to satisfy the "two birds with one stone" fantasy he is probably holding.

If Nixon's paranoia was a fire it wouldn't surprise me if Pat was tossing in the lighter fluid.

106 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:22:02pm

re: #97 yochanan

pat PUKEANAN IS LOWER THAN A SNAKE a snake crawls on its own belly PAT PUKEANAN ISN'T PICKY

Buchanan was always an Arabist. Now it is clear that he is an anti Semite. You wonder, at least I do, how did he get that way?

107 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:22:32pm

Saudi money=formerly our money because our oil and gas are held hostage by Democrats in congress and their liberal minions.

108 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:03pm

re: #103 DistantThunder

Bingo.......follow the stench of Saudi money, what do you bet?

Buchanan doesn't need to be paid by third parties. Hatred of people and modernity is its own reward for him.

109 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:06pm

re: #98 Dr. Shalit

AND AT 9% BY VOLUME
PLUS I DID SOME QUBEC STUFF TOO
I ASK FORGIVENESS FOR DISREGARDING THE IRON FIST RULE
I KNOW ME BAD.

110 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:11pm

Here is pat, doing increasingly stupid and flamboyantly extreme things to break through his dwindling public profile. Like a little kids shouting "Mommy watch" as he rides a bike with no hands and crashes.

It would be sad, if I didn't want to post the video of the crash on youtube. I guess the 20 people who actually listen to this guy are cheering. Oh, and the other 19 who still watch the McLaughling Group on PBS.

Where is William F Buckley Jr. when we need him?

111 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:22pm

I think on this evolution versus ID argument, we just need to prove Darwin right and just out breed the idiots. Anyone game!

112 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:36pm

re: #107 DistantThunder

Saudi money=formerly our money because our oil and gas are held hostage by Democrats in congress and their liberal minions.

Drill, damn it! Do alternate sources too. Do every thing.

113 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:45pm

re: #89 StinkHammer

Gaah! I'm so completely weary of the whole hackneyed "Evolution is just a theory, so the ID theory is just as viable!" argumentative crock. Sorry ID folks, but trying to promote ID by attempting to poke holes in evolutionary theory [with easily debunkable conjecture -SB]doesn't prove ID correct by default.

Yeah, but that's all they got. I'd like one of them to answer these questions:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

For bonus points, use the following criteria:

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

114 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:50pm

re: #100 jaunte

I don't understand how he ever became a 'pundit.' He just seems like some guy ranting at the end of the bar.

Working in a President's administration give you cred.

115 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:08pm

re: #27 hermeneutics

Years ago, Pat Buchanan was considered to be one of the most upright, conservative Catholics in D.C. He ran the Public Liaison Office in Reagan's second term, I believe, and had a reputation of being a straight-shooter who was both honest and non-political.

I'm not sure what happened. His antisemitic rhetoric was shocking. Being a fellow-traveler with skin-heads and white supremacists was also shocking.

Power may corrupt, but that's not what happened to Buchanan. What did happen -- the forces that altered his beliefs -- is unknown, at least to me.

I think some people undergo some kind of change in the balance of chemicals in their brain, or neurons die or get rerouted, or something. They probably aren't even aware that they've changed, and would in fact vigorously argue that they haven't. Not that I'm making excuses for Pat...but I hope nothing like this ever happens to me.

116 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:20pm

re: #106 opnion

WERE IS W.F. BUCKLEY when we need him a great man for sure.

117 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:31pm

re: #75 uptight

Question: Aside from Buddhism, are there any mainstream religions that are flexible enough to embrace scientific discovery without it compromising their doctrines on God and the origins of the universe?

I'm not talking about religions that merely refuse to confront the contradictions revealed by science,

Well, mine is (Catholic), and many others I'm sure. Or did I not understand the question?

118 kafir  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:42pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am a jew and a zionist, proud of both. Pat slimes my people at every opportunity.

I don't want him to shut up though. No, I want him to say what he thinks. To get these feelings out there. Because he is a racist and we will be able to see what a racist is by looking at him.

Pat bemoans the "browning" of America.

He bemoans the "contro" that jews have over everything.

He bemoans the loss of interest in his particular flavor of faith.

He is the poster child for ignorance and prejudice wrapped in a nice jacket.

He is the useful idiot of the lefty MSM when they need their view of the poster-boy conservative.

Pull him out and all your anti-conservative prejudices can be fulfilled in one easy helping.

Pat demonstrates how badly our educational system has failed some of its students.

But I don't want him silenced. He, and every other nitwit, on either side, needs the harsh light of reality shining down on them.

They show themselves to be fools. In public. In a spotlight.

They can't help themselves.

You go Pat, I'll get the popcorn and chuckle while you self-imolate.

119 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:49pm

re: #102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Has Pat simply found a new source of funding?

Following the Smell - Obviously not the same "Rotten Broccoli" that could screw up the Beijing Olympics - Smells more like an old "Union 76" TruckStop Fueling area to me. But that's just me.

-S-

120 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:54pm

re: #110 Dainn

Here is pat, doing increasingly stupid and flamboyantly extreme things to break through his dwindling public profile. Like a little kids shouting "Mommy watch" as he rides a bike with no hands and crashes.

It would be sad, if I didn't want to post the video of the crash on youtube. I guess the 20 people who actually listen to this guy are cheering. Oh, and the other 19 who still watch the McLaughling Group on PBS.

Where is William F Buckley Jr. when we need him?

we think alike

121 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:25:00pm

Pat, you are a washed-up has-been with extremist views that appall average middle-class voters. Please stay away from us - you may be contagious.

122 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:25:10pm

re: #114 Sharmuta

Working in a President's administration give you cred.

Two words- George Stephanopoulos.

123 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:25:37pm

re: #111 Big Steve

That would be eugenics and I hope that's not what you meant.

124 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:25:50pm

This is of course an old topic for Pat:

From Mar 18, 1996 Time magazine:
DUMPING ON DARWIN

[...]
"I [Buchanan] believe you're a creature of God," he said. "I think [parents] have a right to insist that Godless evolution not be taught to their children or their children not be indoctrinated in it."

125 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:10pm

re: #110 Dainn

Here is pat, doing increasingly stupid and flamboyantly extreme things to break through his dwindling public profile. Like a little kids shouting "Mommy watch" as he rides a bike with no hands and crashes.

It would be sad, if I didn't want to post the video of the crash on youtube. I guess the 20 people who actually listen to this guy are cheering. Oh, and the other 19 who still watch the McLaughling Group on PBS.

Where is William F Buckley Jr. when we need him?

Pat Buchanan is a frequent guest on both MSNBC and Fox News, and has regular columns published on major conservative web sites.

There are a LOT more than 20 people listening to him. Don't underestimate him.

126 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:15pm

re: #111 Big Steve

I think on this evolution versus ID argument, we just need to prove Darwin right and just out breed the idiots. Anyone game!

I've got 7 children - I'm doing my part, and pretty well I might add.

127 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:17pm

It's weird how the new millennium (or possibly the post-911 era) has seen the convergence of dark forces.

Until now, I've thought this was limited to Marxists, Nazis, Islamists, Paulians and conspiracy nuts, but are we now going to see the religious right join this nascent nexus of evil?

It's also weird that Bush Derangement Syndrome seems to have been the catalyst - with antisemitism and hatred of America as the primary drivers and a desire to see the destruction of Israel & capitalism as the ultimate focal point.

In some ways, it's good that the enemies of freedom are converging. They are an easier target. An easier force to deal with and defeat.

In other ways, with Liberalism & white guilt forcing many to listen to them, they become a powerful lobby.

128 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:36pm

I wonder why he's still listed on Townhall's list of columnists. Right to his opinion and all that, but surely there's a point at which his colleagues might want to suggest he'd be more appropriately served by a different venue. One with a lot of Aryan symbolism in the banner. As it is, they are all lying down with one very large flea-ridden mutt.

129 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:37pm

frankly i have stopped watching banity and clomes because of PAT PUKEANAN.

130 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:38pm

re: #116 yochanan

WERE IS W.F. BUCKLEY when we need him a great man for sure.


The great man has left the building. He had Buchanans number from the jump.

131 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:58pm

re: #99 opnion

Here is the thing. Evolution is demostrable. Did Darwin have every detail correct ? Of course not. That does not debunk evolution.

Well, you and I know that, and evolutionary theory proponents know that, but ID advocates seem to think that unless absolutely every minutia of evolutionary and natural selection theory is holistically demonstrable upon demand, then it fails as as an explanation altogether. They then bolster their own non-scientific theory via the "either/or" logical fallacy to maintain that since evolution is incomplete (and fatally flawed, in their mind), then ID must therefore be a viable alternative.

132 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:05pm

re: #106 opnion

Buchanan was always an Arabist. Now it is clear that he is an anti Semite. You wonder, at least I do, how did he get that way?

A prerequisite to Arabist, is anti Semite.

133 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:07pm

Ah, I see 'Mathew1977' is back, dinging down my comment about the reader who emailed to support me.

134 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:16pm

re: #117 reine.de.tout

Well, mine is (Catholic), and many others I'm sure. Or did I not understand the question?

uh....Galileo. I think it was within the last decade the Pope finally admitted Galileo right. That doesn't sound like embracing science to me.

135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:25pm

re: #118 kafir

OK, I dinged ya! It would take me 6 months to write what you just wrote. Well done. Good form.

136 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:34pm

re: #113 Slumbering Behemoth

There you go again . . . !

137 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:49pm
...what they are asking is that we accept it all on faith...

I'm not asking any one to accept s%#t. I don't care very much what other people think on this issue. But what I know is this, if I am to accept creationist views taught in the schools my tax dollars pay for, then they better teach that Tolkiens Middle Earth is just as possible and just as real.

138 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:06pm

re: #110 Dainn

WELCOME HATCHLING. REMEMBER THE BEER IS ON YOU
CHIMAY ALE HERE.

139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:10pm

re: #126 DistantThunder

DAYAM!

140 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:11pm

re: #130 opnion

The great man has left the building. He had Buchanans number from the jump.

No- we have VDH, who isn't afraid to rip pat a new one.

141 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:13pm

re: #123 paradox42

That would be eugenics and I hope that's not what you meant.

I wasn't shooting for a master race.....just one that accepts obvious scientific fact.

142 Fat Jolly Penguin  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:32pm

re: #128 infidelia

Has anyone gotten a response from Townhall yet? I haven't. (Not holding my breath.)

143 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:35pm

re: #131 StinkHammer

Yup

144 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:40pm

re: #75 uptight

There is the mainstream faith of Baha'u'llah, commonly referred to as Baha'i Faith, and it is accepting of (actually REQUIRING) rational thought, the necessity for harmony between science and faith, and the need for individuals to educate themselves in sciences, arts and practical matters, that they may 'earn a living by their calling', and 'spend upon themselves and their loved ones'...

Science AND religion, knowledge AND love... :D

145 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:54pm

Tolkien's creation story is beautiful! Wouldn't you love to hear the Music of the Ainur?

re: #137 justdanny

I'm not asking any one to accept s%#t. I don't care very much what other people think on this issue. But what I know is this, if I am to accept creationist views taught in the schools my tax dollars pay for, then they better teach that Tolkiens Middle Earth is just as possible and just as real.

146 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:54pm

I think the high point of Pat Buchanan's career was when Bush Sr. said, "Read my lips, no new taxes." When Bush Sr. broke that pledge a lot of people voted for Pat Buchanan in the primaries as a form of protest.
Poor Pat never realized that people weren't really voting for him, but just angry at Bush Sr. If it hadn't been for that Pat would have been lower than the margin of error.

147 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:29:58pm

re: #140 Sharmuta

No- we have VDH, who isn't afraid to rip pat a new one.

A rational & convincing thinker.

148 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:30:18pm

As far as his appearances, I'm torn because if he appears and the conservative commentator rips into Pat, and exposes him for the bigoted creep he is, then that is a good thing.

The problem, as with Laura Ingrahm, - they aren't often effective enough, setting him up to make a fool of him even though he gives them plenty of ammo.

149 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:30:27pm

re: #145 Tigger2005
More beautiful than most...

150 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:30:27pm

re: #113 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but that's all they got. I'd like one of them to answer these questions:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

Here, I'll volunteer some answers: None; none; and none.

End of story. In a rational world, you'd think that would be all it'd take. But we all know we don't live in a wholly rational world.

151 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:30:50pm

re: #134 Big Steve

uh....Galileo. I think it was within the last decade the Pope finally admitted Galileo right. That doesn't sound like embracing science to me.

Oh. Silly me. I thought he was talking about now, not hundreds of years ago.

152 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:31:04pm

re: #118 kafir

I

You go Pat, I'll get the popcorn and chuckle while you self-imolate.

Where you are wrong is that people watch and read what confirms their previous opinions. It is why we are comfortable on LGF.

Every time Buchanan opens his mouth or writes a column, another hater cuddles his pitchfork.

153 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:31:28pm

re: #148 DistantThunder

As far as his appearances, I'm torn because if he appears and the conservative commentator rips into Pat, and exposes him for the bigoted creep he is, then that is a good thing.

The problem, as with Laura Ingrahm, - they aren't often effective enough, setting him up to make a fool of him even though he gives them plenty of ammo.

I haven't seen a single conservative commentator challenge Buchanan on anything.

154 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:31:30pm

re: #142 Fat Jolly Penguin

Has anyone gotten a response from Townhall yet? I haven't. (Not holding my breath.)

Not I.

155 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:31:34pm

re: #133 Charles

Ah, I see 'Mathew1977' is back, dinging down my comment about the reader who emailed to support me.

By their dings you shall know them.

156 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:32:00pm

This is a "Goliath" problem approaching us. Reason is our only "David".

157 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:32:41pm

re: #152 Opinionated

Where you are wrong is that people watch and read what confirms their previous opinions. It is why we are comfortable on LGF.

Every time Buchanan opens his mouth or writes a column, another hater cuddles his pitchfork.


I don't think that Pat has many followers. He is a follower.

158 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:33:03pm

PAT PUKEANAN is a soft fascist. were david duke is a hard fascist. in the end they are both scum.

159 Shug  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:33:05pm

re: #153 Charles

I haven't seen a single conservative commentator challenge Buchanan on anything.

When do you ever see two conservatives on the television at the same time/

usually it's one conservative and four liberals.

160 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:34:25pm

ot:

Was there a thread about the 2 dead returned Israeli soldiers?

~I've been out and off of LGF throughout the day.

161 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:34:47pm

re: #158 yochanan

PAT PUKEANAN is a soft fascist. were david duke is a hard fascist. in the end they are both scum.

As bad as Duke is , don't ya thik that he is more honest?
He is a complete facist & strangely proud of it.

162 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:34:51pm

re: #142 Fat Jolly Penguin

Has anyone gotten a response from Townhall yet? I haven't. (Not holding my breath.)

The people who run Townhall.com have very obviously decided to ignore the issue.

163 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:16pm

re: #125 Charles

Pat Buchanan is a frequent guest on both MSNBC and Fox News, and has regular columns published on major conservative web sites.

There are a LOT more than 20 people listening to him. Don't underestimate him.

Point taken. What really gets me about Pat is that the MSM pushes him forward as "the voice of conservatism." They are using him as a strawman to show everyone "how stupid conservatives are." "Are you like Pat? No? Then be a liberal like the smart people."

And Pat is too much of a tool to realize any of this. Or more likely, he likes the money the attention brings.

164 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:23pm

re: #136 reine.de.tout

There you go again . . . !

Sometimes I just can't help myself. ;)

165 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:23pm

re: #142 Fat Jolly Penguin

Has anyone gotten a response from Townhall yet? I haven't. (Not holding my breath.)

I'm not talking about censoring Buchanan or interfering with his freedom of speech. What I'm talking about, figuratively of course, is taking a bullwhip to his sorry ass and beating him like a rented mule all the way over to Stormfront where he belongs. If they had any guts at Townhall they'd have done that by now. They have so many outstanding columnists on that site, I can't understand why they continue to let this creep slime their reputations.

166 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:32pm

re: #110 Dainn

Here is pat, doing increasingly stupid and flamboyantly extreme things to break through his dwindling public profile. Like a little kids shouting "Mommy watch" as he rides a bike with no hands and crashes.

It would be sad, if I didn't want to post the video of the crash on youtube. I guess the 20 people who actually listen to this guy are cheering. Oh, and the other 19 who still watch the McLaughling Group on PBS.

Where is William F Buckley Jr. when we need him?

McLaughlin has been on both NBC and PBS since 1982. In early 2008, he switched his dual allegience to CBS and PBS, dropping NBC. His show remains popular and has great ratings for a news talk show. Buchanan was one of the originals on the show which included Jack Germond, Eleanor Clift, Fred Barnes, Bob Novak, and Mort Kondracke.

Buckley and McLaughlin were good friends, by the way. In the 1980s, while starting the McLaughlin Group, (John was the political columnist for NR under a pseudonym).

Anyway, all of these men go back to Nixon or Reagan. Only Buchanan and Sobran (Charles called this right) transformed their Catholicism to radical antisemitism. Oddly, those two were some of the most likeable of the bunch. McLaughlin, an ex-Jesuit priest, was a tyrant and still it, from what I hear. Buckley, though, remained gentle and urbane until his death.

167 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:33pm

re: #152 Opinionated

Where you are wrong is that people watch and read what confirms their previous opinions. It is why we are comfortable on LGF.

Every time Buchanan opens his mouth or writes a column, another hater cuddles his pitchfork.

Ahh! Leave my pitchfork out of this....
I sharpening it for congress, got a barrel full of torches too!

You are right, he just reinforces the worst elements associated with the right. The very things the left uses to paint the entire right side with.

168 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:37pm

re: #158 yochanan
The worst kind of scum they are.

169 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:53pm

re: #159 Shug

When do you ever see two conservatives on the television at the same time/

usually it's one conservative and four liberals.

And the liberals are still out numbered!

170 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:59pm

IF things continue to go the way of Buch, it makes knowing who to vote for as a Jew very difficult. Both parties are going to end up with me dead.

171 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:36:01pm

re: #161 opnion

SSDD

172 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:36:10pm

re: #157 opnion

I don't think that Pat has many followers. He is a follower.

Millions agree with him.

173 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:18pm

re: #172 Opinionated
And Vermin is there name.

174 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:19pm

re: #157 opnion

I don't think that Pat has many followers. He is a follower.

Just like with vlaams belang, we should not underestimate these fascist bigots. That they have a platform on which to spew their garbage should be enough to show there are people listening. That their bigoted ideas are coming under scrutiny causing their followers to howl should again show us that 1) we are right to expose them and 2) that they do indeed have followers.

175 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:21pm

re: #117 reine.de.tout

Well, mine is (Catholic), and many others I'm sure. Or did I not understand the question?

How does Catholicism deal with the contradictions between the Genesis explanation of the origins of life and discoveries we've made in the modern era?

Does Catholicism reject the explanations and history found in Genesis?

Does it officially contextualize Genesis as having no relevance in the modern era and explain it away as a faith-based, but woefully uninformed tract?

176 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:22pm

re: #151 reine.de.tout

Oh. Silly me. I thought he was talking about now, not hundreds of years ago.

Oh so you aren't going to own 2000 years of catholic history? That's fine, probably a good thing. The current catholic church does pretty well and in fact actually sponsors scientific research in a number of areas. However, they are still not accepting things like the obvious data that the shroud of Turin is a fake.

177 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:27pm

re: #165 infidelia

Maybe they agree with him and are just afraid to say so in public. Or he brings in money. Morality falls quickly when faced with the mighty dollar.

178 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:27pm

Another supporter, this time with an LGF account:

Dear Charles:

I'm a believer in ID and thus a Creationist, and I completely agree with your position on teaching ID in science classs. ID is being used as a Trojan Horse to shove Creationism down people's throat, pure and simple.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until my fellow believers cease and desist, matters of faith do not belong in the science classroom. Science has produced it's best when left alone to be science.

Keep up the good work, Charles, hopefully these knuckleheads will get it eventually.

Land Shark

179 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:40pm

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

180 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:55pm

re: #153 Charles

I haven't seen a single conservative commentator challenge Buchanan on anything.

I saw Hannity challenge him about how the US should have allowed Hitler to take France and Belgium without opposition. Hannity challenged him on the Holocaust happening simultaneously, and asked, so how could we have tolerated Hitler, and not intervened knowing what we knew.

Pat's responses were preposterous.

I thought Hannity treated his positions with contempt.

181 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:38:19pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Here we go again.

182 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:39:01pm

re: #179 Mathew1977
just those who want that idea taught in our schools

183 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:39:21pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Why don't you go do your homework and read some of these previous threads? You'll find your answers there.

184 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:39:32pm

Another supporter emails:

Charles,

As a born again skeptic, I am again impressed by your rationalism. Let this count as a full throated vote of support for your stance on evolution and aggressive pursuit of true even if the truth is in conflict with stated personal agendas.

I speak as a 47 year old male who has come to appreciate honesty that is fast disappearing in this society.

Carey

185 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:39:59pm

W.F. BUCKLEY was the closest we had to a intellectual in the almost 'liberal' seance our member of the charting class so to speak. with out the liberal echo chamber. a man who spoke the truth and not the troth

186 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:02pm

re: #175 uptight

How does Catholicism deal with the contradictions between the Genesis explanation of the origins of life and discoveries we've made in the modern era?

Does Catholicism reject the explanations and history found in Genesis?

Does it officially contextualize Genesis as having no relevance in the modern era and explain it away as a faith-based, but woefully uninformed tract?

I have no clue.

187 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:15pm

re: #170 WrathofG-d

IF things continue to go the way of Buch, it makes knowing who to vote for as a Jew very difficult. Both parties are going to end up with me dead.

Buchanan left the GOP in 2000 and has not rejoined it in any capacity.
He has been a vehement critic of Bush's policies and a staunch opponent of the Iraq War.
It is time for those of us who are old enough to remember the Cold War era to understand that Buchanan IS NOT A REPUBLICAN.

188 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:16pm

re: #158 yochanan

PAT PUKEANAN is a soft fascist. were david duke is a hard fascist. in the end they are both scum.

Pat's hardening up.

189 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:20pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

Bingo. Believe what you want, but keep it out of science class.

190 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:30pm

re: #183 Sharmuta

Why don't you go do your homework and read some of these previous threads? You'll find your answers there.

He has read the previous threads. He's simply coming back to repeat his talking points.

191 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:58pm

re: #121 DistantThunder

Pat, you are a washed-up has-been with extremist views that appall average middle-class voters. Please stay away from us - you may be contagious.

"D-T" -

So was Herr Hitler - as to - contagion. The "UP" side is that Pat is NOWHERE near as Charismatic. Go from there.

-S-

192 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:41:06pm

re: #172 Opinionated

Millions agree with him.

Right, but i do not think that he is forming opinion. He exploits what is already there

193 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:41:10pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

I haven't felt that at all and I believe in a creator. It's just the classroom issue that divides the ID people from the rest of us.

194 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:41:26pm

re: #190 Charles

He has read the previous threads. He's simply coming back to repeat his talking points.

Oh- so he's being completely disingenuous. Thanks for the heads up.

195 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:41:52pm

re: #133 Charles

Ah, I see 'Mathew1977' is back, dinging down my comment about the reader who emailed to support me.

Yes, because it seemed like a slobbering re: #183 Sharmuta

Why don't you go do your homework and read some of these previous threads? You'll find your answers there.

I've read every single post and thought I brought up a legitimate question.

196 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:08pm

re: #179 Mathew1977
"relegated to a philosophy classroom" ?

Please. It belongs in no public school classroom.

Freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

Keep it in your home and your church and your heart. Leave me alone with it. No one is trying to stop you from worshipping your way, and I will do all I can to defend your right to worship as you wish. But leave me alone with it.

197 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:08pm

Another supporter:

Ok, here's a centrist-liberal who also appreciates your efforts re. evolution. My political/social position has shifted considerably in the past 7-8 years mainly in my intolerance of radical Islam and its fellow travellers (which is how I happened upon LGF).Still, I will probably end up voting for Obama this fall (I would have preferred Clinton) and we'll just have to agree to disagree about that. But there is no room for disagreement about science and technology in the 21st century. They are essential to an informed, rational, progressive (in the original meaning of the word) society. Creationists are the troofers of our educational system; they must not be allowed to sabotage it. Thanks for your principled stand on these issues.

-David

198 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:13pm

re: #194 Sharmuta

He's whining again.

199 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:22pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

mathew BALDERDASH. i believe in G-d but i think it should be as is not in science class. G-D is not politics I.D. IS POLITICS.

200 NoSubmission  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:23pm

I believe in God and evolution.

201 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:50pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

No disdain whatsoever, I happen to BELIEVE this.

But BELIEVING THIS does not help in the SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION of REALITY, Matt.

Invoking God to explain acceleration or molecular chemistry or tissue growth becomes harmful to all humankind.

"Its a MIRACLE!"

No, its H2SO4, Pal...

202 doubleplusundead  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:57pm

re: #153 Charles

I haven't seen a single conservative commentator challenge Buchanan on anything.

You're right, unfortunately, the only ones that do call his BS are bloggers, and even there, not enough are doing it.

203 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:58pm

re: #176 Big Steve

Oh so you aren't going to own 2000 years of catholic history? That's fine, probably a good thing. The current catholic church does pretty well and in fact actually sponsors scientific research in a number of areas. However, they are still not accepting things like the obvious data that the shroud of Turin is a fake.

As far as I know, the vatican has never officially acknowledged that the Shroud of Turin is what people like to believe it is.

Anyhow - the phrasing of your first sentence sounds like you want some sort of confrontation, and . . . well, you'll have to pick a different Catholic. Don't care who you are or what you are, don't care if you don't like Catholics.

204 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:43:43pm

re: #195 Mathew1977

re: #133 Charles

Ah, I see 'Mathew1977' is back, dinging down my comment about the reader who emailed to support me.

Yes, because it seemed like a slobbering...

Oops.

205 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:43:58pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

You're trying to change the subject. I've seen you do it on another thread.

Folks, let's not get sidetracked by this bogus accusation.

Thus spake the Great Lizard (or was it the Mighty Stinky?):

(all together now)

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

(Hope I got that right.)

206 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:17pm

re: #144 Karridine

There is the mainstream faith of Baha'u'llah, commonly referred to as Baha'i Faith, and it is accepting of (actually REQUIRING) rational thought, the necessity for harmony between science and faith, and the need for individuals to educate themselves in sciences, arts and practical matters, that they may 'earn a living by their calling', and 'spend upon themselves and their loved ones'...

Science AND religion, knowledge AND love... :D

Does Baha'i accept the idea of a central singular God?

If so, what is the role of this God?

It seems to me that the concept of a "creator" is terminally flimsy - even without modern discoveries relating to the evolution of life and the universe.

The old, impenetrable question of the origin of God springs to mind.

207 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:19pm

re: #204 Charles

Oops.

Yes, my bad.

208 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:35pm

This forum is only turning hostile toward YOU, Matthew. You are the one who insists on seeing a debate over teaching pseudoscience in schools, violating the establishment clause, as an attack on believers, and WHINES about it constantly, which GETS ON PEOPLE'S NERVES.

When I first started visiting LGF, as an atheist, I sometimes felt a bit like an outsider. But I didn't WHINE about it and constantly talk about how PERSECUTED I felt.

Cheese anyone?


re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

209 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:42pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Disdain? I disdain those who are not honest, regardless of their other beliefs.

Don't try to play a victim... I (along with others here) have never said to stop believing in God (or whatever).

210 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:49pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

There are many here who believe in a creator of one form or another, so your attempt to falsely characterize this site falls flat.

211 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:08pm

re: #195 Mathew1977

No, you didn't bring up a legitimate question, because the position of various Lizards is quite clear. You are just trolling again as you were last night:

Mathew1977:

I have often found that when I am in disagreement with the majority on any particular thread, that further infuriating those with opposing opinions is highly entertaining.

You deserve nothing but GAZE.

212 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:13pm

I.D. in a theology class fine. as science balderdash.

213 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:15pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Other "philosophies" we should teach:

The earth is flat.
The holocaust didn't really happen.
The moon landings were faked.
New coke is better than old coke.
One word: eugenics!

There is a threshold where a belief is relegated to the non-scientific. Creationism met that threshold over a hundred years ago. You can still belief it. You can believe the sky is green and water will work in your gastank too. Here in America we protect with force your freedom to be as out0of-touch as you want to be.

Just keep your belief systems out of the schools my children attend. If you have problems with schools teaching science, there is always home school.

214 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:20pm

re: #195 Mathew1977

I've read every single post and thought I brought up a legitimate question.

You did.

215 Purple Prose  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:23pm

According to Pat:

Darwinism claims, for example, that matter evolved from non-matter — i.e., something from nothing — that life evolved from non-life; that, through natural selection, rudimentary forms evolved into more complex forms; and that men are descended from animals or apes.

Actually, Darwinism claims nothing of the kind. Darwin and evolutionary biologists don't go back that far. They only look at living organisms.

It is the province of chemists who have pushed the boundary to what we consider non-life. Chemists have shown that organic compounds that are found in living organisms can form spontaneously from simpler compounds under the proper conditions. They have also found that chains of some of these compounds can form RNA molecules that can self-replicate and evolve through mutation toward molecules that can self-replicate even more efficiently (thus leaving more "progeny" molecules) without a cell. These molecules are like simple viruses, in a way.

So Darwinists are not so bold as to back to non-living matter, but other branches of science have shown that certain traits of living material can be easily produced in a lab and that even proto-evolutionary processes can occur without a cell or anything anyone would characterize as living.

So poor Pat is pitifully ignorant. Support for a cohesive and plausible natural origin of life comes not only from "dogmatic" Darwinists and biologists but also from chemists who are not "brainwashed" into Darwinistic thinking, since many of these chemists have never taken a biology course in their lives.

Doh!

216 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:29pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.


Do I get to be the first one to remind you that Thomas Jefferson advised us to "fix reason firmly in her seat" and to "question boldly even the existence of a god"?

217 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:31pm

re: #203 reine.de.tout

As far as I know, the vatican has never officially acknowledged that the Shroud of Turin is what people like to believe it is.

Anyhow - the phrasing of your first sentence sounds like you want some sort of confrontation, and . . . well, you'll have to pick a different Catholic. Don't care who you are or what you are, don't care if you don't like Catholics.

Not picking a fight and I am a catholic. I was just surprised when anyone mentioned our faith as being one of the open minded ones regarding scientific advances. One usually doesn't get that.

218 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:54pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?


No disdain here for those who believe in God. We do not want somebody teaching somebody else's version of faith in public schools in a tidily wrapped fake science package.

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.


Yep.


But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.


That's your imagination.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.


Nope.

219 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:03pm

re: #205 Josephine

You're trying to change the subject. I've seen you do it on another thread.

Folks, let's not get sidetracked by this bogus accusation.

Thus spake the Great Lizard (or was it the Mighty Stinky?):

(all together now)

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

(Hope I got that right.)

I agree with your statement and don't see how my comment contradicts it.

220 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:08pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

We aren't goofing on you because you believe in god. We are goofing on you because you're silly.

221 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:09pm

re: #201 Karridine

amen karridine

222 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:45pm

re: #206 uptight

Does Baha'i accept the idea of a central singular God? = Absolutely.

If so, what is the role of this God? The All-Knowing Creator, the All-Wise.

It seems to me that the concept of a "creator" is terminally flimsy - even without modern discoveries relating to the evolution of life and the universe.

The old, impenetrable question of the origin of God springs to mind.

"Veiled in the immemorial essence of My Being, I knew My love for thee, hence I created thee..."

223 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:55pm

re: #211 Sharmuta
Second the GAZE ... I know better now. Its nothing but a silly troll from years gone by. I thought they had all been rounded up and pushed. Guess I was wrong.

224 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:47:04pm

re: #187 wolfie

For now....

225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:47:15pm

HEY! It's on Drudge!

Michelle is not going with BHO to Afganistan. Staying home with the daughters.

Can you imagine the photo's of him with her and her doing the "politically correct" thing by wearing a hijab?

226 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:47:21pm

re: #186 reine.de.tout

I have no clue.

That would bother me.

I can't turn a blind eye to the illogical, unexplained or unanswered. I guess I lose the beauty of faith, but I can't help the way that I feel.

227 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:47:34pm

re: #213 Dainn

frankly i like kosher for passover or Mexican coke as both use real sugar.

228 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:00pm

Do we do GAZE or TAZE now?

229 HelloDare  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:10pm

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

HEY! It's on Drudge!

Michelle is not going with BHO to Afganistan. Staying home with the daughters.

Can you imagine the photo's of him with her and her doing the "politically correct" thing by wearing a hijab?

She'll wear the hijab at home so she can be with him in spirit.

230 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:15pm

re: #211 Sharmuta

No, you didn't bring up a legitimate question, because the position of various Lizards is quite clear. You are just trolling again as you were last night:

Mathew1977:

You deserve nothing but GAZE.

Call it what you will, I thought LGF was a place to contribute my thoughts.

Why are mine less legitimate than anyone else's?

231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:19pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

Oops...dinged you down before I got the sarcasm. Sorry.

232 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:32pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

ie attention whore

233 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:58pm

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think it's a smart move. It's dangerous and there's no need for her to be there.

234 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:08pm

I'll bet Obama is afraid to go to Iraq and Afghanistan both politically and physically. Grow a pair.

235 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:18pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I have no disdain whatsoever for your religion, beliefs or adherence thereto.

I do, however, have disdain for slipshod argumentation, illogic, irrationality, and outright disingenuousness when it comes to attempting to forward a religious belief as scientifically based.

236 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:21pm

Some people contribute thoughts to LGF- others just troll.

237 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:25pm

re: #138 yochanan

WELCOME HATCHLING. REMEMBER THE BEER IS ON YOU
CHIMAY ALE HERE.

Laganitas, always. May the hops be with you.

238 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:42pm

re: #233 Killgore Trout

Agreed. But I think it's more about the photos. But I am realllly cynical.

239 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:59pm

Maybe the trolls learn something.

240 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:04pm

re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'll forgive you because I',m morraly superior.
/

241 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:06pm

re: #233 Killgore Trout

I think it's a smart move. It's dangerous and there's no need for her to be there.


I think that they are avoiding the image of her in the head scarf.

242 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:08pm

re: #222 Karridine

what science learns about g-d's creation just proves that it wasn't an accident for example how complex is g-d's work. I know of a number of ortho Jewish scientists.

243 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:19pm

re: #233 Killgore Trout

here

244 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:29pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

I believe that God created EVERYTHING.

I was uncomfortable with some of the comments from the non-believers at the beginning of this debate a while back but, I stuck with LGF because I immediately realized that if the Christian version of ID is taught in science classrooms in public schools, then CAIR will be quick to pounce on it and force the schools to teach the Islamic version.

THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

245 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:30pm

re: #239 DistantThunder

Maybe the trolls learn something.

How to ferment better whine.

246 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:49pm

re: #239 DistantThunder

Maybe the trolls learn something.

trolls aren't here to learn- they're only hear to stir up attention for themselves.

247 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:50pm

EC Marm,

Point of interest:

B-2 Crash at Andersen Air Force Base Accident Report

Moisture in the aircraft's Port Transducer Units during air data calibration distorted the information in the bomber's air data system, causing the flight control computers to calculate an inaccurate airspeed and a negative angle of attack upon takeoff. According to the report, this caused an, "uncommanded 30 degree nose-high pitch-up on takeoff, causing the aircraft to stall and its subsequent crash."

Moisture in the PTUs, inaccurate airspeed, a negative AOA calculation and low altitude/low airspeed are substantially contributing factors in this mishap. Another substantially contributing factor was the ineffective communication of critical information regarding a suggested technique of turning on pitot heat in order to remove moisture from the PTUs prior to performing an air data calibration.

248 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:56pm

Two words:

No.

Whining.

249 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:57pm

I just finished reading David R. Contosta's book on Lincoln and Darwin. I did find it interesting that both were likely atheists. Darwin clearly became one and his writing was clear on the subject. Lincoln probably always one one but sprinkled religious phrases into speeches. Probably like today, back then it would be impossible to be a card carrying atheist and run for president.

250 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:01pm

re: #214 opnion

You did.

Thanks, opnion!

251 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:15pm

re: #219 Mathew1977

I agree with your statement and don't see how my comment contradicts it.

Just so you know, I read your comments on the other thread. You seem to take pride in being a ****-disturber. I don't believe you are interested in an honest debate, so you are on GAZE as far as I'm concerned.

252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:25pm

re: #244 MandyManners

I luvs me some Mandy!

253 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:26pm

re: #244 MandyManners

Amen.

254 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:28pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

Err- they're on here. PIMF

255 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:32pm

re: #230 Mathew1977

Call it what you will, I thought LGF was a place to contribute my thoughts.

Why are mine less legitimate than anyone else's?

Again, cheese, anybody?

256 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:39pm

re: #242 yochanan

Roger THAT, Yo! :D

Man, God LOVES laughter!

And science is astounding with laugh-worthy realities!

257 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:12pm

re: #237 Dainn

Laganitas, always. May the hops be with you.

a bit of a pickled grin welcome hatchling.

258 NoSubmission  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:13pm

re: #241 opnion

I think that they are avoiding the image of her in the head scarf.

Nothing beats that New Yorker cover!

259 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:21pm

re: #250 Mathew1977

Thanks, opnion!


My pleasure

260 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:29pm

Frankly, I'm against government being involved in Education, period.

So, while I don't think ID should be taught in science class, I think the root cause of the entire ID v Evolution in school argument, is that we expect government to decide what our children should be taught. We have been brainwashed.

If you don't want your children exposed to ID theory in school science classes, then change schools.

Stop expecting government to solve your problems. Government is the problem.

261 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:44pm

re: #249 Big Steve

I just finished reading David R. Contosta's book on Lincoln and Darwin. I did find it interesting that both were likely atheists. Darwin clearly became one and his writing was clear on the subject. Lincoln probably always one one but sprinkled religious phrases into speeches. Probably like today, back then it would be impossible to be a card carrying atheist and run for president.

I didn't know that about Lincoln. I suppose some people would claim he therefore could not have been a moral man.

262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:59pm

re: #251 Josephine

Trying to figure out what **** means.

263 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:01pm

re: #214 opnion

Pray tell- what legitimate question did the troll raise?

264 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:02pm

re: #249 Big Steve

I just finished reading David R. Contosta's book on Lincoln and Darwin. I did find it interesting that both were likely atheists. Darwin clearly became one and his writing was clear on the subject. Lincoln probably always one one but sprinkled religious phrases into speeches. Probably like today, back then it would be impossible to be a card carrying atheist and run for president.

That's tragic, isn't it, but your right.

265 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:04pm

re: #251 Josephine

Just so you know, I read your comments on the other thread. You seem to take pride in being a ****-disturber. I don't believe you are interested in an honest debate, so you are on GAZE as far as I'm concerned.

Contrarians can be useful in helping us define our position.

266 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:38pm

re: #245 Karridine

karridine what do bahai's think of beer?

267 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:45pm

re: #243 WrathofG-d

Heh.

268 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:54pm

That's tragic, isn't it, but your right.

S/b

That's tragic, isn't it, but you're right.

269 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:54:07pm

re: #258 NoSubmission

Nothing beats that New Yorker cover!

Michelle has processed hair. So except for the Fro,it was spot on!

270 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:54:21pm

Resistance is sexy.

271 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:54:23pm

re: #247 Geepers
Interesting. A little bit of pilot error or lack of training, maybe. I've got to imagine there's a lot of potential humidity in Guam. Cool pix. Thanks.

272 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:03pm

re: #265 DistantThunder

He's not here to be a contrarian to help us better define our views- he's here to piss us off for his entertainment.

Again:

I have often found that when I am in disagreement with the majority on any particular thread, that further infuriating those with opposing opinions is highly entertaining.

273 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:04pm
274 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:20pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

trolls aren't here to learn- they're only hear to stir up attention for themselves.

I'm hesitant to respond to this, since it may be seen as an admission of my being a troll, but I really am here to learn.

I had not heard the term 'troll' until I was called one yesterday.

What can I do to atone for my troll-like behavior?

I don't want to be shouted down every time I post my opinion on a subject.

And that's the last thing I'll say that can be called whining, or 'stating my case' as I like to call it.

275 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:27pm

re: #260 Reno911

After getting rid of public schools, then what? What takes their place?

276 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:29pm

re: #266 yochanan

karridine what do bahai's think of beer?


If humans are made in the image of G*d, then our purpose is to Know and to Love. Intoxicants inhibit our ability to know and love.

277 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:38pm
278 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:56:14pm

re: #265 DistantThunder

Contrarians can be useful in helping us define our position.

I'll take it!

279 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:56:32pm

re: #264 Walter L. Newton

That's tragic, isn't it, but your right.

That point underscores what I meant by "No Whining". From those who believe in God. You are the majority. We who are atheist cannot even successfully run for office in this allegedly "secular" society. So please. No. Whining.

280 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:56:46pm

re: #274 Mathew1977

I'm hesitant to respond to this, since it may be seen as an admission of my being a troll, but I really am here to learn.

I had not heard the term 'troll' until I was called one yesterday.

What can I do to atone for my troll-like behavior?

I don't want to be shouted down every time I post my opinion on a subject.

And that's the last thing I'll say that can be called whining, or 'stating my case' as I like to call it.

"Slobbering" what? Care to finish that sentence?

281 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:56:53pm

re: #276 Karridine

don't do it all that offen but once and a wile sometimes to feel good isn't all that bad.

282 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:07pm

re: #261 infidelia

I didn't know that about Lincoln. I suppose some people would claim he therefore could not have been a moral man.

Contosta does a pretty good job of giving both sides of the argument as to whether Lincoln was an atheist. Early writings and recollections of friends are squarely in the atheist camp. However he also quoted the bible and used God's name often in speeches. For example in the Gettysburg address - that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom...

283 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:13pm

I just want to make a point, here.

If PB considers himself a Christian and considers the Church to replace Israel then, by definition, he is not a Christian.

The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a covenant keeping G-d. He may allow, He has allowed, many curses to befall Israel as He plainly states would befall her, if she does not obey His Word. But that does not mean He will ever foresake Israel. He has shown his mercy many times, has allowed for the Restoration of Israel, in 1948. His hand was with Israel during that stunning victory in 1967. He is G-d and he keeps covenants.

Jesus is a Jew. He came first to the Jew, then the Gentiles. He came to save all men that believe, but He will work through Israel. The Church is described and a wild vine, an unatural branch, that is grafted into the natural vine, that being Israel. We are told this so self-righteous bobbleheads like Buchanan would not boast against Israel (all this Romans 10 and 11)

I have a love for Israel that can only come from being a fervent reader of His Word and I wouldnt for one second claim that I, as a Christian, replace the Jews as being God's chosen people. Never.

Pat B, is jerk. He may believe, as I do, that G-d created the universe and all in it, but that is probably where the comparison ends, as does mullahs who think the same (except their "god" stems from Ashteroth, the moon god.....yeah, you get the point)

Please, I speak from the heart, I dont want any "piss up ropes" or "shove it where the sun dont shine". If you are thinking this, keep it to y'selves.

284 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:35pm

re: #239 DistantThunder

Maybe the trolls learn something.

Learning is not the modus operandi of a troll. Shit disturbing is their only goal.

285 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:38pm
286 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:41pm

re: #274 Mathew1977

What can I do to atone for my troll-like behavior?

Go UPTHREAD and read some of the realities of accepting scientific evolution AND belief in God Almighty; ACKNOWLEDGE your reading of those comments, and THEN, IF PERHAPS you have questions, raise NEW questions.

287 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:47pm

re: #275 paradox42

The Free Market.

288 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:58:02pm

re: #280 Charles

"Slobbering" what? Care to finish that sentence?

I stopped typing it for a reason. My original reaction was to make a snarky comment, but cooler heads prevailed and I moved on. So, no I don't wish to finish that sentence.

289 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:58:13pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Mat,

I am a Christian and pretty out spoken about it around these parts.

First of all my faith, my belief in a Creator and His Intelligent Design of universe is absolute.

That belief is faith, not science, it doesn't belong in a science class. No test can be contrived, no proof submitted to substantiate physically my faith, my beliefs that's why it's faith, not science.

What the Disco Institute is trying to push is not science, it is also bad faith. Fighting the spiritual warfare in the realm of flesh and blood. Should the succeed the unintended consequences will be far reaching and be far worse than not having creationism taught as science.

Furthermore as a believer in a The Creator, I also must believe in the creation, and what the creation tells me. The Creator incorporated certain laws in to his creation, these laws keep everything running smoothly. Keep random sh*t from happening. Man has the ability to discover these laws. For example quantum physics govern how atoms behave, the behavior is at the quantum level is not random but highly predictable, with the predictability material could suddenly behave in strange ways, but that never, ever happens. A table made of steel remains that. Those same quantum rules tell us the ages of other materials.

What the proponents of ID and creationism from the DI propose is that the quantum laws of physics work fine for predicting the behavior and properties of a steel table, no longer work when determining the age of that same table.

That disconnect applies across all disciplines of science cherry picking what fits and what doesn't. You can't do that. You have to encompass all of creation and everything it tells you.

290 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:58:35pm

re: #244 MandyManners

I believe that God created EVERYTHING.

I was uncomfortable with some of the comments from the non-believers at the beginning of this debate a while back but, I stuck with LGF because I immediately realized that if the Christian version of ID is taught in science classrooms in public schools, then CAIR will be quick to pounce on it and force the schools to teach the Islamic version.

THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

Mandy, I completely agree with you, but I wish people could stay focused on that idea rather than being determined to convince Christians that they're wrong, stupid, or evil.

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

291 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:04pm

EC Marm (#271),

Interesting. A little bit of pilot error or lack of training, maybe. I've got to imagine there's a lot of potential humidity in Guam.

Part of the problem when things always work is you get complacent that they always will.

Cool pix.

I think that one's a total write off.

292 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:14pm

re: #279 infidelia

That point underscores what I meant by "No Whining". From those who believe in God. You are the majority. We who are atheist cannot even successfully run for office in this allegedly "secular" society. So please. No. Whining.

You mistake my tone and tenor, that wasn't meant to be a whine.

If you have ever read my posts here, you know I don't whine, stomp my feet or demand that anyone listen to me.

293 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:15pm

re: #281 yochanan

Don't sweat the small stuff, Yo.

When I found the way to myself, I lost the way to the liquor store. :D

294 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:30pm

re: #262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Trying to figure out what **** means.

Really? Or are you teasing me? I thought that was a common term.

295 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:43pm

re: #248 infidelia

Two words:

No.

Whining.

Whyyyyyyyyyyyy noooooooooottttttttttttttttt?

296 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:46pm

re: #287 Reno911

What about people who can't afford it? Do you want to go back to the days when only the wealthy could afford education?
Maybe you're right, mass literacy is overrated after all.

297 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:00:30pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

hahaha saw this guy a looooong time ago (1st LA show) in person. Way before Matisyahu.

Pretty funny stuff. Bringing the accordion back.

298 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:00:46pm

re: #263 Sharmuta

Pray tell- what legitimate question did the troll raise?

As I read it, he is saying that the concept of God is not necessarily in opposition to Evolution

299 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:00:53pm

re: #289 jcm

Mat,

I am a Christian and pretty out spoken about it around these parts.

First of all my faith, my belief in a Creator and His Intelligent Design of universe is absolute.

That belief is faith, not science, it doesn't belong in a science class. No test can be contrived, no proof submitted to substantiate physically my faith, my beliefs that's why it's faith, not science.

What the Disco Institute is trying to push is not science, it is also bad faith. Fighting the spiritual warfare in the realm of flesh and blood. Should the succeed the unintended consequences will be far reaching and be far worse than not having creationism taught as science.

Furthermore as a believer in a The Creator, I also must believe in the creation, and what the creation tells me. The Creator incorporated certain laws in to his creation, these laws keep everything running smoothly. Keep random sh*t from happening. Man has the ability to discover these laws. For example quantum physics govern how atoms behave, the behavior is at the quantum level is not random but highly predictable, with the predictability material could suddenly behave in strange ways, but that never, ever happens. A table made of steel remains that. Those same quantum rules tell us the ages of other materials.

What the proponents of ID and creationism from the DI propose is that the quantum laws of physics work fine for predicting the behavior and properties of a steel table, no longer work when determining the age of that same table.

That disconnect applies across all disciplines of science cherry picking what fits and what doesn't. You can't do that. You have to encompass all of creation and everything it tells you.

Thank you. Your post seems to me to be the most reasoned positing of that opinion I've read herein so far.

300 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:00:55pm

Rats. Somebody called it "Disco Institute" and now I can't get the image of John Travolta out of my mind.

301 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:03pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

trolls aren't here to learn- they're only hear to stir up attention for themselves.

re: #284 Slumbering Behemoth

Learning is not the modus operandi of a troll. Shit disturbing is their only goal.


I know I have a lot of empty space between my ears, but that doesn't mean you should be spending so much time in my head.
//

GMTA!

302 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:10pm

re: #260 Reno911

If you don't want your children exposed to ID theory in school science classes, then change schools.

So you're saying we should just give up and let creationism be taught in public schools?

I don't think so.

303 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:15pm

re: #283 A Kiwi Infidel

I just want to make a point, here.

If PB considers himself a Christian and considers the Church to replace Israel then, by definition, he is not a Christian.

Here we go again. The magic answer.

304 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:17pm

re: #283 A Kiwi Infidel


If PB considers himself a Christian and considers the Church to replace Israel then, by definition, he is not a Christian.

Hmm? It is a fairly common, old Christian doctrine.

305 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:28pm

re: #244 MandyManners

I believe that God created EVERYTHING.

I was uncomfortable with some of the comments from the non-believers at the beginning of this debate a while back but, I stuck with LGF because I immediately realized that if the Christian version of ID is taught in science classrooms in public schools, then CAIR will be quick to pounce on it and force the schools to teach the Islamic version.

THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

Dittos.

And, whenever I see an ID thread here, I remind myself that there is a time to speak out and a time to shut the fuck up.

306 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:38pm

re: #297 WrathofG-d

Neo-Klezmer rules!

307 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:46pm

re: #290 goddessoftheclassroom

Mandy, I completely agree with you, but I wish people could stay focused on that idea rather than being determined to convince Christians that they're wrong, stupid, or evil.

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

Yes, there are some who do, and best handled by simply ignoring them. They don't add much, anyhow, just seem to be hankering for a confrontation of some sort.

308 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:50pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

These are the good old days

Damnit, man! You made me dance.

309 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:01pm

What I believe is none of your business.
What you think of me is none of my business.

How many WASPs does it take to change a light-bulb?

Two. One to call the servants and one to mix the drinks.

/whatever...................

310 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:04pm

re: #258 NoSubmission

Nothing beats that New Yorker cover!


I was truly insulted that they would think that folks on the right think like that. (Hehehe) BTW: Here's a new 'Inauguaration' Photoshop I'm almost finished. Obviously, I have to have Michelle supporting the koran in some way, but I'll get around to it.

311 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:20pm
312 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:29pm

re: #302 Charles

Why not? They can put it right in between "how to put a condom on a banana class" and a reading of "my two daddies".

:D

313 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:36pm
314 WhiteRasta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:38pm

re: #291 Geepers

Yea. A few drops of water can bring down a billion dollar aircraft.......

Murphy's 13th law in action....

315 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:39pm

re: #300 infidelia

Rats. Somebody called it "Disco Institute" and now I can't get the image of John Travolta out of my mind.

Dean Denny Terrio

316 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:46pm

re: #222 Karridine

"Veiled in the immemorial essence of My Being, I knew My love for thee, hence I created thee..."

But how does God (or his autobiographer) explain his own creator-free perpetuity?

And if we are expected to accept concepts like intelligence without matter, existence without creation or causality and time without beginning or end when it comes to God, why is it anathema to extend these ideas to the universe itself.

If God, in perpetual nothingness, intervened to create substance, it does not explain where this God - or indeed the substance came from.

And that's without wrestling with the idea of an omnipotent, transdimensional, eternal superdude needing a rest after 6 days.

317 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:51pm

re: #290 goddessoftheclassroom

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

A lot of posters do, my faith is strong enough that whatever anybody posts does not really bother me all that much. Last night I was basically called a fundamentalist muslim and today I think it was inferred that I was a nazi because of my beliefs. I laughed at both of those things. Agree to disagree and move on.

318 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:59pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

My friend, you are never alone

319 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:04pm

re: #295 MandyManners

Whyyyyyyyyyyyy noooooooooottttttttttttttttt?

Because I'll put all your books back and you'll leave the store with nothing if you don't stop asking me for that...

Oh. Sorry. That's what I hear all day at work, I must have been having a flashback.

320 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:11pm

re: #297 WrathofG-d

hahaha saw this guy a looooong time ago (1st LA show) in person. Way before Matisyahu.

Pretty funny stuff. Bringing the accordion back.

Take it from an accordion player, the accordion never left, just our audiences.

321 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:20pm

There is no actual "ID theory", just a set of random criticisms of evolutionary biology that are not holding up very well.

322 Quintus_Arius  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:41pm

Theology and science do coexist. The Bible: theology, not science.
Catholics do not take Genesis 'literally'. It is a theological presentation of creation. It makes no sense to an atheist.

On the other hand, I have no problem with the theory of evolution. I just believe my God was the Prime Mover, not only of our humanity, but universal existence.

I concede that is leap of faith, but no one here can make a better claim on the truth. I just know there is only ONE truth. We don't get to define our own truth to suit ourselves for the current fad.

I like to quote Benedict XVI:

How many winds of teaching we have known in these last decades, how many ideologies, how many ways of thinking...The little vessel of thought of many Christians has often been rocked by these waves -- hurled from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, to the point of libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. New sects are born every day and we see what Saint Paul says in terms of human trickery and cunning that tends to lead to error (cf Eph 4:14). To have a clear faith, according to the Creed of the Church, is often labelled as fundamentalism. While relativism, i.e. letting oneself be "swept along by any wind of doctrine", seems to be the only up-to-date way to behave. A dictatorship of relativism is taking shape which recognizes nothing as definite and for the ultimate measure is simply one's own self and its desires

323 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:48pm

re: #301 Slumbering Behemoth

My friend- I know you jest, but give yourself more credit. You're a smart guy.

324 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:54pm

re: #304 freetoken

that would be replacement theolgy and siince it has a name there must be people who blieve it.

325 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:12pm

re: #311 buzzsawmonkey

You may find this soothing.

{buzzsawmonkey}

You have no idea how much I needed that.

326 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:27pm

re: #321 jaunte

There is no actual "ID theory", just a set of random criticisms of evolutionary biology that are not holding up very well.

Well put.

327 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:41pm

By the way, I've found an interview with David Berlinski of the Discovery Institute in which he very explicitly advocates allying with the Islamic creationists to promote their agenda.

328 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:46pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

Neo-Klezmer rules!

Have you heard the Klezmer surf band?

329 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:52pm

re: #213 Dainn

Other "philosophies" we should teach:

The earth is flat.
The holocaust didn't really happen.
The moon landings were faked.
New coke is better than old coke.
One word: eugenics!

It was with that in mind that the Discovery Institute was proffering the law that recently passed in Louisiana to my chagrin that essentially opens up school districts to serious levels of chicanery on what gets taught as supplemental materials.

Everything you mentioned above could get included as a supplemental material in the teaching of science. That is to say, materials proposing or supporting such concepts could get included in curricula in Louisiana school districts, along with ID, because of the law that Jindal signed.

The capacity for mischief is serious and real. And the people who will suffer most are the children whose educations will suffer as a result of time wasted trying to deal with this. Time and money, that is - as the issue will raise lawsuits and drain budgets.

330 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:02pm

re: #310 EC Marm

I was truly insulted that they would think that folks on the right think like that. (Hehehe) BTW: Here's a new 'Inauguaration' Photoshop I'm almost finished. Obviously, I have to have Michelle supporting the koran in some way, but I'll get around to it.

Please submit this to the New Yorker ASAP!

331 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:30pm

re: #317 VegasRick

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

A lot of posters do, my faith is strong enough that whatever anybody posts does not really bother me all that much. Last night I was basically called a fundamentalist muslim and today I think it was inferred that I was a nazi because of my beliefs. I laughed at both of those things. Agree to disagree and move on.

I wish I could be that unaffected.

Some might call your attitude 'milquetoast'.

I tend to get a little riled when such aspersions are cast on me by those same posters and so I respond in kind.

332 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:35pm

re: #304 freetoken

Hmm? It is a fairly common, old Christian doctrine.


It is a church doctrine, not a christian doctrine. Think about it.

333 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:41pm

re: #252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I luvs me some Mandy!

re: #253 DistantThunder

Amen.

This is often lost in this debate but, it is the most important point.

That said, I've wondered tonight about the fact that Buchanan agrees with the ID folks, and that Muslims are joining forces with them.

I'm not leveling any accusations, I'm not suggesting anything.

I just find it interesting.

334 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:43pm

re: #312 WrathofG-d

Why not? They can put it right in between "how to put a condom on a banana class" and a reading of "my two daddies".

:D

Wrath, would you believe 'banana' in Thai (language) is a cognate/homophone for 'penis'? VERY subtle shading of sound differentiates the two, and new Thai-learners from abroad are almost ALWAYS treated to a 'banana-penis' debacle, in public, to the vast enjoyment of native Thais! :D

335 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:50pm

re: #274 Mathew1977


I had not heard the term 'troll' until I was called one yesterday.

If you say that, until yesterday, you have never, EVER, been anywhere on the internet, than I might believe that statement above.

336 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:56pm

re: #296 paradox42

"What about people who can't afford it?"

Uh...they re-prioritize what's important. Get a better job. Home-school. Work 2 or 3 jobs. The list is endless.

Again, the issue is Freedom. Perhaps you have heard of it.

Freedom to teach ID as science v Freedom not to teach ID as science.

Both sides are wrong in this debate. You teach your children the way you want and I will teach my children the way I want.

Stop expecting government to restrict the freedom of one group over another.

337 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:07pm

re: #175 uptight

How does Catholicism deal with the contradictions between the Genesis explanation of the origins of life and discoveries we've made in the modern era?

Does Catholicism reject the explanations and history found in Genesis?

Does it officially contextualize Genesis as having no relevance in the modern era and explain it away as a faith-based, but woefully uninformed tract?


The answer to your last question is ABSOLUTELYNOT.

The Catholic Church has "contextualized" Genesis in many ways over the centuries. (The literalist,"historical" view, BTW, was rarely considered the best exegesis, at least in the medieval period.) But the importance and relevance of Genesis has always been central to the faith, just as it is now.

The foundations of Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) doctrine rest on apostolic authority, tradition, Scripture, and reason.

Protestants who rest their doctrine on Scripture alone will approach things differently. There are also radical, "total depravity" Christians who maintain that human reason is so far fallen as to be completely unreliable, but that's another story.

338 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:17pm

re: #328 Walter L. Newton

How about neo-violins?

339 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:25pm

re: #318 WrathofG-d

Good one!

340 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:32pm

re: #247 Geepers

Crap. I hope everyone survived, but that moisture on the sensor things' gotta get straightened out.

341 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:44pm

re: #310 EC Marm

I was truly insulted that they would think that folks on the right think like that. (Hehehe) BTW: Here's a new 'Inauguaration' Photoshop I'm almost finished. Obviously, I have to have Michelle supporting the koran in some way, but I'll get around to it.

He is the Messiah! He's levitating the Koran!

342 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:47pm

re: #327 Charles

By the way, I've found an interview with David Berlinski of the Discovery Institute in which he very explicitly advocates allying with the Islamic creationists to promote their agenda.

No shit?

343 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:57pm

re: #327 Charles

By the way, I've found an interview with David Berlinski of the Discovery Institute in which he very explicitly advocates allying with the Islamic creationists to promote their agenda.

That is truly frightening. But if Berlinski is not Muslim, what does he believe he has to gain by supporting Islamic creationists? Is is simply that he doesn't understand the aims of Islamism?

344 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:58pm

re: #334 Karridine

Wrath, would you believe 'banana' in Thai (language) is a cognate/homophone for 'penis'? VERY subtle shading of sound differentiates the two, and new Thai-learners from abroad are almost ALWAYS treated to a 'banana-penis' debacle, in public, to the vast enjoyment of native Thais! :D

That's why I got arrested the last time I was there. Thanks for the explanation.

345 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:07pm

re: #331 Mathew1977

I wish I could be that unaffected.

Some might call your attitude 'milquetoast'.

I tend to get a little riled when such aspersions are cast on me by those same posters and so I respond in kind.

I would ask about turning the other cheek but, I don't do so well in that area.

346 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:08pm

re: #334 Karridine

I'll have to get a thai GF and make the mistake.

347 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:10pm

re: #332 A Kiwi Infidel

It is a church doctrine, not a christian doctrine. Think about it.

It is a very common belief down through the ages, as someone else had noted, occasionally it is called "replacement", but there are variations such as "continuation" rather than replacement. Anyway, it is/was pretty standard belief.

348 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:16pm

re: #331 Mathew1977

I wish I could be that unaffected.

Some might call your attitude 'milquetoast'.

I tend to get a little riled when such aspersions are cast on me by those same posters and so I respond in kind.

If you knew me you would get a laugh out of that. You are not going to change any of these folks minds so arguing the point is a waste of time.

349 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:29pm

re: #327 Charles

Are you going to post it here? I'd definitely like to read it.

350 HelloDare  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:33pm

re: #327 Charles

You realize of course that it proves nothing./

351 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:49pm

re: #328 Walter L. Newton

No, not yet.

352 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:01pm

I'll post about the Berlinski interview soon. It's a RealAudio feed, and I need to convert it to MP3 when I have a few free minutes.

353 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:20pm

re: #329 lawhawk

Other "philosophies" we should teach:

The earth is flat.

Which immediately makes room for demands that ALL GLOBES of EARTH be removed from classrooms, in the interests of fairness...

354 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:34pm

re: #335 Slumbering Behemoth

If you say that, until yesterday, you have never, EVER, been anywhere on the internet, than I might believe that statement above.

I'm all over the internet all the time for work and entertainment, but this is the only forum I have actively participated in. So, yes, in that sense I am a noob. I don't care whether you believe my statement or not. It is true.

355 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:38pm

bbl

356 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:43pm

re: #338 WrathofG-d

How about neo-violins?

Accordion - definition - Stomach Stienway

357 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:05pm

re: #334 Karridine

i am sure lol

358 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:16pm

re: #338 WrathofG-d

Some friends of mine: 3 leg Torso

359 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:23pm

re: #336 Reno911

But public schools ARE 'government schools', Reno.

360 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:38pm

re: #327 Charles

By the way, I've found an interview with David Berlinski of the Discovery Institute in which he very explicitly advocates allying with the Islamic creationists to promote their agenda.

Is that the CBC piece? I found it so incriminating... it is such a "kumbayah" lets-hold-hands conversation, that I find it incredulous that Berlinski could claim the ID movement is not a religious movement after that.

361 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:43pm

re: #356 Walter L. Newton

re: #358 Killgore Trout

Neo-Klezmerish

362 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:10:06pm

re: #360 freetoken

Is that the CBC piece? I found it so incriminating... it is such a "kumbayah" lets-hold-hands conversation, that I find it incredulous that Berlinski could claim the ID movement is not a religious movement after that.

Yes, it's the CBC interview.

363 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:10:23pm

re: #160 WrathofG-d

Here it is, Wrath.

I am still livid re the release...too angry to speak coherently.

364 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:10:46pm

good nite lizards.

365 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:10:57pm

re: #351 Killgore Trout

No, not yet.

The name of the group is Meshugga Beach Party. If you search Google, you should be able to find a whole album that they release free, download the mp3's.

366 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:00pm

re: #347 freetoken

It is a very common belief down through the ages, as someone else had noted, occasionally it is called "replacement", but there are variations such as "continuation" rather than replacement. Anyway, it is/was pretty standard belief.


Good point. What should have made everyone sit up, sharp-like, was when the Balfour Declaration came into effect and Israel was, indeed, reborn in one day, in 1948. Replacement theology has bone bones, albeit brittle, prior to that, but post 1948 they became dust, well, they should have.

367 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:13pm

re: #358 Killgore Trout

P.S. The guy in the bathtub is my ski/fishing buddy.

368 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:14pm

re: #317 VegasRick

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

A lot of posters do, my faith is strong enough that whatever anybody posts does not really bother me all that much. Last night I was basically called a fundamentalist muslim and today I think it was inferred that I was a nazi because of my beliefs. I laughed at both of those things. Agree to disagree and move on.

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, it's not so easy for me.

(This is going to get soppy; you have been warned)

The past year has been particularly crummy for me, and LGF has been a haven of friends and support. I should simply avoid these threads because I can't laugh off what I feel to be attacks on my faith, but the camaraderie and discussions have been so important to me.

What bothers me is that some Lizards don't even seem to care ho much they hurt others as long as they can make their points, and that's the atmosphere that dismays me.

Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads, but I have enough disappointment and hurt in real life without having to face it here.

369 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:21pm

re: #364 yochanan

good nite lizards.


Good night.

370 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:29pm

re: #302 Charles

No, I'm saying if you don't like what's taught to your children in government-run schools. Either work to rid this nation of the scourge of government-run schools and/or get your children out of them.

The ID v Evolution in public schools debate is an "effect" of government-run schools, the "cause" is government-run schools.

371 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:31pm

re: #344 Walter L. Newton

ROFL!

Bilingual sons laughing too, Walter!

LMAO! :D

372 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:37pm

The interview's on this page, if anyone wants to get a jump on it:

[Link: www.cbc.ca...]

Scroll down to "Turkey – Creationism Documentary".

373 ornery elephant  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:37pm

re: #312 WrathofG-d

Why not? They can put it right in between "how to put a condom on a banana class" and a reading of "my two daddies".

:D

now THAT is a classic ! hahaha :wiping coffee off the monitor:

thank you Wrath

374 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:52pm

re: #348 VegasRick

If you knew me you would get a laugh out of that. You are not going to change any of these folks minds so arguing the point is a waste of time.

It's the attitude I was referring to, not you as a person.

Is that you in your photo?

If so, I retract my comment and pray you don't snap my neck with your ridiculously large muscles.

375 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:56pm

re: #358 Killgore Trout

They are great. When I went to camp as a kid we called that 1st song they are playing the "tofu on my table" song (not sure how it got that name)

376 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:01pm

re: #305 Alouette

Dittos.

And, whenever I see an ID thread here, I remind myself that there is a time to speak out and a time to shut the fuck up.

Animist, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Deist, Jew, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, et al.: we either stick together and win or, we will lose one by one.

377 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:02pm

re: #176 Big Steve

Oh so you aren't going to own 2000 years of catholic history? That's fine, probably a good thing. The current catholic church does pretty well and in fact actually sponsors scientific research in a number of areas. However, they are still not accepting things like the obvious data that the shroud of Turin is a fake.

I have a strong suspicion that you don't know a damn thing about "2000 years of catholic history."
Even the medieval church sponsored scientific research.

378 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:06pm

re: #353 Karridine

Which immediately makes room for demands that ALL GLOBES of EARTH be removed from classrooms, in the interests of fairness...


What about the flat maps that prove the earth is flat, hmmm?

379 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:20pm

re: #365 Walter L. Newton

Meshugga Beach Party
Awesome!

380 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:27pm

re: #244 MandyManners

I believe that God created EVERYTHING.

I was uncomfortable with some of the comments from the non-believers at the beginning of this debate a while back but, I stuck with LGF because I immediately realized that if the Christian version of ID is taught in science classrooms in public schools, then CAIR will be quick to pounce on it and force the schools to teach the Islamic version.

THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

That is the nub of it.

Whatever our differing explanations for life, the one incontrovertible truth is that we are here, now and this is the reality we are dealing with on a day to day basis.

This means we are have to make the most of it and stop evil people screwing it up for everyone else.

These are the basics.

381 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:42pm

re: #353 Karridine

Which immediately makes room for demands that ALL GLOBES of EARTH be removed from classrooms, in the interests of fairness...

Or, use Terry Pratchett "Discworld" novels instead of science texts. More fun for everyone!

382 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:48pm

re: #363 NY Nana

Hey NY NANA. Long time.

These are these days. Nothing surprises me anymore with Olmert.

383 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:17pm

re: #346 WrathofG-d

Easy, Big Fella!

384 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:18pm

The Berlinski section starts at about 11:40.

385 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:28pm

re: #213 Dainn

New coke is better than old coke.


Heresy! Bite your tongue! You need a time out young man!

386 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:31pm

re: #376 MandyManners

Animist, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Deist, Jew, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, et al.: we either stick together and win or, we will lose one by one.

Mandy, you just nailed it!

387 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:41pm

Sorry -- it's Paul Berlinski, not David.

388 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:49pm

re: #322 Quintus_Arius

Theology and science do coexist. The Bible: theology, not science.
Catholics do not take Genesis 'literally'. It is a theological presentation of creation. It makes no sense to an atheist.

On the other hand, I have no problem with the theory of evolution. I just believe my God was the Prime Mover, not only of our humanity, but universal existence.

Now I can live with that - even accept it as a theoretical possibility, but is it the official position?

389 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:08pm

Thanos (#340),

That was the B-2 that crashed (first time ever) back in February. They were flying back to the States from Guam. Pilot and Co-Pilot ejected with minor injuries.

390 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:14pm

re: #359 Karridine

I see you get the point.

Now about that Thai GF...

391 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:30pm

re: #323 Sharmuta

My friend- I know you jest, but give yourself more credit. You're a smart guy.

Thank you, but I love to indulge in self-deprecation for the sake of a laugh. It also keeps me from thinking I'm all morally superior and stuff.

392 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:32pm

re: #336 Reno911

It has nothing to do with freedom. This isn't an issue where each side has validity. One side has the facts, the other is full of crap.
And what do we do about kids whose parents are crack heads? Why deprive them of an education because their parents are waste products?

393 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:36pm

re: #213 Dainn

Other "philosophies" we should teach:
...
New coke is better than old coke.
...

Well, I'm hosed. I really liked New Coke.

394 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:42pm

re: #307 reine.de.tout

Yes, there are some who do, and best handled by simply ignoring them. They don't add much, anyhow, just seem to be hankering for a confrontation of some sort.

He/she means me.

395 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:15:11pm

re: #376 MandyManners

Animist, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Deist, Jew, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, et al.: we either stick together and win or, we will lose one by one.

+1

"first they came for the new age Wiccans..."

396 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:15:25pm

I get the feeling we have just lost Goddessoftheclassroom

397 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:16:15pm

re: #395 uptight

+1

"first they came for the new age Wiccans..."


Then the Druids........

398 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:16:17pm

re: #393 esch

Well, I'm hosed. I really liked New Coke.

I'm at a loss.

I haven't done any coke since the 80's

399 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:16:39pm

re: #376 MandyMannersre: #381 infidelia

Oh, yeah, Man! Now we're teaching toooooooke! *pause* REALITY!

400 profitsbeard  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:16:41pm

Pat isn't fit to lick a trilobite's coprolite.

Cherry-picking the 'scientific' pits to suit his shallow stupidities.

401 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:02pm

re: #394 Big Steve

He/she means me.

You think? I had a couple of others in mind, not you.

402 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:04pm
403 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:08pm

re: #379 Killgore Trout

Meshugga Beach Party
Awesome!

Glad I could add a little culture to your miserable atheist existence.

/

404 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:21pm

re: #368 goddessoftheclassroom

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, it's not so easy for me.

(This is going to get soppy; you have been warned)

The past year has been particularly crummy for me, and LGF has been a haven of friends and support. I should simply avoid these threads because I can't laugh off what I feel to be attacks on my faith, but the camaraderie and discussions have been so important to me.

What bothers me is that some Lizards don't even seem to care ho much they hurt others as long as they can make their points, and that's the atmosphere that dismays me.

Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads, but I have enough disappointment and hurt in real life without having to face it here.

I have a suggestion. Try to remember that the atheists here are also human beings with lives and families and jobs and troubles to get through. Try to understand that reality to us is as sacred as your god is to you. Then try applying the Golden Rule. It's a good one.

405 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:26pm
2 Timothy 4:3-4

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Interesting no?

406 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:35pm

re: #398 uptight

Well, that explains the name..

8)

407 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:50pm

re: #402 buzzsawmonkey

I certainly hope you're wrong. It's bad enough that we don't see Mama Winger here anymore.

But I am praying for her, and little winger.

408 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:59pm

re: #401 reine.de.tout

You think? I had a couple of others in mind, not you.

bless you.....no more arguments I promise.

409 The Other Les  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:01pm

A new Unspeakable Vault (of Doom!)

[Link: www.macguff.fr...]

410 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:05pm

re: #407 A Kiwi Infidel

What happened to Mama Winger?

411 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:19pm

re: #397 opnion

Then the Druids........

actually, first they came for Irshad Manji

412 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:23pm

re: #402 buzzsawmonkey

I certainly hope you're wrong. It's bad enough that we don't see Mama Winger here anymore.

No, I'm still here. It's nice to know that some would miss me.

413 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:24pm

re: #379 Killgore Trout

Meshugga Beach Party
Awesome!

As a keyboard player, I really dig the guy in shorts. Ah, I mean, as his performer persona.

414 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:42pm

re: #386 opnion

Animist, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Deist, Jew, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, et al.: we either stick together and win, or we will lose one by one.
Mandy, you just nailed it!


The MEANING of the American revolutionary slogan,

"We must all hang together (stick together, be unified) or we shall assuredly all hang (by the neck until dead at British hands) seperately!"
415 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:50pm

re: #393 esch

Well, I'm hosed. I really liked New Coke.

Do most bodegas here in the States carry Mexican Coca-Cola?

416 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:08pm

re: #413 Walter L. Newton

As a keyboard player, I really dig the guy in shorts. Ah, I mean, as his performer persona.

Glad you added the disclaimer.... I was beginning to wonder....

417 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:26pm

re: #391 Slumbering Behemoth

It also keeps me from thinking I'm all morally superior and stuff.

That's an interesting theory. Could you provide some evidence that you don't think that?

For bonus points, use the following criteria:

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

For extra

418 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:29pm

re: #368 goddessoftheclassroom

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, it's not so easy for me.

(This is going to get soppy; you have been warned)

The past year has been particularly crummy for me, and LGF has been a haven of friends and support. I should simply avoid these threads because I can't laugh off what I feel to be attacks on my faith, but the camaraderie and discussions have been so important to me.

What bothers me is that some Lizards don't even seem to care ho much they hurt others as long as they can make their points, and that's the atmosphere that dismays me.

Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads, but I have enough disappointment and hurt in real life without having to face it here.

I see what you're saying, and I hope we're thinking that both sides of the debate do this...not just those who do not believe that God created the heavens and the earth.

419 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:38pm

re: #402 buzzsawmonkey

Where is/what happened to Mama W?

420 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:39pm

re: #405 Mich-again

Interesting no?yes!

and so true

421 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:48pm

re: #392 paradox42

What? Of course each side has validity. The are Free to believe as they wish.

Children of crack heads? If you are concerned about their education prospects, I suggest you adopt one.

I don't mean to offend you, but have you read any of the foundational documents of this nation?

422 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:56pm

re: #377 wolfie

I have a strong suspicion that you don't know a damn thing about "2000 years of catholic history."
Even the medieval church sponsored scientific research.

wrong and for point two, such as.....

423 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:01pm
424 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:03pm

re: #329 lawhawk


The capacity for mischief is serious and real. And the people who will suffer most are the children whose educations will suffer as a result of time wasted trying to deal with this. Time and money, that is - as the issue will raise lawsuits and drain budgets.

I agree with you 100%, but would just like to point out that it wont just be the children that suffer if this is allowed to continue.

People my age will also suffer as we begin to grow older and these children become our future doctors, lawyers, statesmen, etc.

The DI's agenda is clearly a threat to young minds, but it is also a threat to the survival of our nation.

425 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:04pm

re: #415 infidelia

Do most bodegas here in the States carry Mexican Coca-Cola?

I can get it, and I do prefer it over the corn syrup Coke. But I did like the 'New' coke formula even better.

426 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:12pm

Okay, now I am going for the evening, I have had it.

My thanks to those of you who have tried to keep things civil, but there are some comments that I just can't deal with.

427 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:42pm
428 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:21:07pm

re: #368 goddessoftheclassroom

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, it's not so easy for me.

(This is going to get soppy; you have been warned)

The past year has been particularly crummy for me, and LGF has been a haven of friends and support. I should simply avoid these threads because I can't laugh off what I feel to be attacks on my faith, but the camaraderie and discussions have been so important to me.

What bothers me is that some Lizards don't even seem to care ho much they hurt others as long as they can make their points, and that's the atmosphere that dismays me.

Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads, but I have enough disappointment and hurt in real life without having to face it here.

Goddess - it's understandable. It also provides a great opportunity to learn to stay engaged rather than being avoidant which is a natural tendency. It is a sign of emotional maturity that you are able to do so. Liberals have a very hard time, understanding or tolerating opposing views - their heads tend to explode or spin around. That is why we are superior: we can examine, and then stay engaged in the discourse.

429 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:21:16pm

re: #408 Big Steve

bless you.....no more arguments I promise.

LOL!
I went back and re-read the comment that I accused you of trying to start an argument, and I think I was off-base thinking that. Just on first reading it struck me as argumentative.

But there are a couple here who make comments like "the big Easter Bunny in the sky", and similar comments, and those are the ones who I was talking about.

430 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:21:28pm
431 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:21:36pm

re: #416 jcm

Glad you added the disclaimer.... I was beginning to wonder....

I totally forgot about that song they are doing, Miserlou. I use to play that on my chromatic harp. Got to get it out and try to see if it's still floating around in my head.

432 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:21:38pm

re: #426 goddessoftheclassroom

Just think about where they will be going for their comments. That is what keeps me laughing. :D

433 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:21:39pm

re: #382 WrathofG-d

Nothing surprises me anymore with Olmert.

There is no low that is too low....and he keeps on sinking.

And within his party? A merry band of corrupt, self-serving politicians, but he is the worst of the worst. May G-d help Israel.

434 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:21:43pm

goddessoftheclassroom (#412),

Lots of us would miss you.

Noli illegitini carborundum

435 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:22:07pm

re: #368 goddessoftheclassroom


Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads,


Don't forget the option of being an ankle biter. That can be fun.
Example:
Hey ______. Where were you this morning? Long line at the courthouse to get the batteries replaced in your electronic ankle bracelet?

436 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:22:22pm

re: #430 buzzsawmonkey

Interesting weeding out of the old timers. Interesting I tell you. (sad if you asked me)

437 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:23:05pm

re: #433 NY Nana

May G-d help Israel to realize that we must help ourselves and follow Him!

438 NemoParticularis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:23:13pm

re: #42 Charles

"Pat Buchanan was exposed years ago. No one who has been paying attention to his career has been under any delusions for a LONG time. William F. Buckley wrote a whole book about Buchanan and Joe Sobran."

Sobran...forgot about him. He and Buchanan are bookends suffering from the same dementia. I used to read Sobran's column many years ago but quickly tired of the reactionary anti-semitism that creeped into and then permeated everything he wrote.

"There's no benefit whatsoever to have this creepy racist contributing to the public debate on any issues."

Perhaps the benefit lies in the opportunity to confront his arguments and defeat them. Limbaugh once said that if conservatism ever held reign over America's university system, every campus should retain at least one Marxist on its faculty so that students would be exposed to and therefore understand how awful Marxism really is.

But I understand your viewpoint: we get enough of his crap from other quarters and don't need it from someone who professes to be a conservative.

439 harpsicon  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:23:20pm

re: #11 leslein

"I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."

Leslein is far more interesting than Mathew1977 - it seems nobody has recognized this quotation, which is from Albert Einstein. Although much of what he did led directly to quantum theory, he never quite accepted quantum theory, because as a religious man he found it very hard to believe that God plays dice with the universe, which is in effect what quantum theory says.

Of course quantum theory has been "proven" quite spectacularly - most of today's techie toys depend on its validity, and they're everywhere in our lives. So Einstein was wrong, even though he was Einstein. By the time he said this he was at the Princeton Institute for Advanced Studies, but he didn't contribute much more to science, although he was a great humanitarian late in his life.

Presumably Leslein is quoting Einstein in support of ID and God taking an active role in the universe - not "throwing dice", but alas by the time he expressed this sentiment Einstein was no longer in the picture as far as cutting-edge science was concerned. The quantum boys were right, and he became dated, or whatever term you might use to describe this situation, where a respected scientist fails to keep up.

So this is at least interesting. Einstein was confused in science late in life by his more fundamental beliefs, which up to that point had not failed him, and maybe even had been critical to his understanding of the universe. If one is to be a scientist, one must be willing to jettison ANY IDEA AT ALL that runs up against a better explanation of reality (theory).

440 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:23:40pm

re: #363 NY Nana

Here it is, Wrath.

I am still livid re the release...too angry to speak coherently.

Nana, I've been depressed all day about it.

441 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:23:44pm

re: #413 Walter L. Newton

As a keyboard player, I really dig the guy in shorts. Ah, I mean, as his performer persona.

Way back when I was in high school every dance I went to ended with Hava Nagila. I thought it always sounded like that. Thanks for the memories!

442 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:23:49pm

re: #395 uptight

+1

"first they came for the new age Wiccans..."

Woops! I forgot the Wiccans and the Druids.

Fuck Anton LaVey and Michael Aquino.

443 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:23:49pm

re: #430 buzzsawmonkey
Ma Sands took a powder, too, I think.

444 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:24:14pm

re: #436 WrathofG-d

Interesting weeding out of the old timers. Interesting I tell you. (sad if you asked me)

A natural evolution of the site, don't you think?

445 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:24:24pm

re: #404 infidelia

I have a suggestion. Try to remember that the atheists here are also human beings with lives and families and jobs and troubles to get through. Try to understand that reality to us is as sacred as your god is to you. Then try applying the Golden Rule. It's a good one.


I think some time the debate swings a littyle out of control. As an example on one thread I mentioned that I did not believe any Lizard believed the Genisis story of Creation.
Oh man was i wrong. One guy got really mental & conluded "How do you know? Were you there?" If I would have thought quicker I would have said, "No & neither was anyone else."
However I do believe that people of faith should be respected.

446 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:24:32pm

re: #430 buzzsawmonkey

She's upset over the evolution threads. Religion bashing has nothing to do with it.

447 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:24:46pm

re: #430 buzzsawmonkey

The ID threads? I've seen some uncalled for stuff on those. Mostly I stay out of 'em.

448 itellu3times  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:24:56pm

re: #412 goddessoftheclassroom

No, I'm still here. It's nice to know that some would miss me.

I'm another, gotc. I can't hardly post on these things, can hardly believe half the stuff that gets posted. Kind of like calling the psychic hotline, a lot of posts you just gotta read "for amusement purposes only." Probably serves a purpose, so I hope it doesn't chase you. Just shows politics isn't the only area where people have irrational beliefs, I guess.

449 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:25:00pm

EC Marm,

Nice work on the Inauguration photo(shop).

450 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:25:05pm

re: #423 buzzsawmonkey

That is an utterly obnoxious false dichotomy.

And it is particularly snotty of you to start waving the Golden Rule as you do, given that--proud atheist that you are--you lifted it from the religion that you despise.

The 'Golden Rule' is not unique to Judeo/Christianity.

451 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:25:11pm

re: #440 Josephine

NY Nana.

I remember & of course Operation WrathofG-d

452 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:25:29pm

re: #426 goddessoftheclassroom

I LOVE YOU GODDESS!

453 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:25:34pm

re: #444 DistantThunder

Very funny!

But to answer....I'm not sure.

454 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:25:43pm

re: #302 Charles

So you're saying we should just give up and let creationism be taught in public schools?

I don't think so.

Perhaps I read him wrongly, but I believe he is asking for a privatization of public schools.

In my wee opinion, the debate, in essence, is this: Who decides what history, philosophy, biology, etc. is taught in school?.
Who has the power to dictate the content of education?

I'm convinced that the only solution to this debate is to allow every family to choose whatever content-based education they want for their children, thus cutting the government out of the decision-making process. In an earlier age when a general consensus prevailed, it was possible for the government to decide for many of us without offending large segments of the population. That consensus shattered. There will never be consensus again.

Perhaps, then privatization makes sense and vouchers could end this debate.

455 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:25:45pm

re: #322 Quintus_Arius

Theology and science do coexist. The Bible: theology, not science.
Catholics do not take Genesis 'literally'. It is a theological presentation of creation. It makes no sense to an atheist.

OK, now it's MY turn to WHIIIINNNNNEEEEE!

Why do people think this? Why do they state it with such authority? Why do they think atheists are incapable of understanding theology and/or spirituality? Do they think we have something turned off in our brains? That when it comes to anything religious, we suddenly become stupid, go blank, and hear nothing but gobbledygook?

I was a believer most of my life and thought athiests were nuts. Now, my parents didn't push religion on me...we attended a Methodist church for a while but eventually stopped going, but I still believed in God. I never did accept orthodox Christian belief, but that doesn't mean I didn't understand it. I accepted evolution early on but it didn't effect my belief in God at all. In my 20's I got involved in New Thought Christianity (and some time later was interested to find out that my gerandfather and his wife (on my father's side) had been Unitarians and had also done some reading in Science of Mind and Divine Science). As a student of New Thought Christianity, I studied the Bible from scholarly, theological, historical, literal, and metaphysical perspectives.

I most certainly understand the idea of Genesis as a non-literal account of Creation.

456 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:25:53pm

re: #412 goddessoftheclassroom

No, I'm still here. It's nice to know that some would miss me.

Glad you're still here. Consider whether or not you really want to give the folks you were talking about earlier the power to hurt you. I found it's not worth it to give idiots that kind of power. You are strong, and don't need to give discourteous people that kind of power.

457 ornery elephant  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:26:00pm

re: #404 infidelia

And perhaps since you can understand how sacred your reality is, how important and precious your family is...perhaps a child...that when you degrade G_d in my presence or my belief in Him you've insulted the most precious thing in my life.

458 JeremyR  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:26:07pm

re: #368 goddessoftheclassroom

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, it's not so easy for me.

(This is going to get soppy; you have been warned)

The past year has been particularly crummy for me, and LGF has been a haven of friends and support. I should simply avoid these threads because I can't laugh off what I feel to be attacks on my faith, but the camaraderie and discussions have been so important to me.

What bothers me is that some Lizards don't even seem to care ho much they hurt others as long as they can make their points, and that's the atmosphere that dismays me.

Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads, but I have enough disappointment and hurt in real life without having to face it here.

Goddess, I too have problems with the way some behave on these threads. I know exactly how you feel. Most of the time I simply avoid them so as to keep from getting attacked by some of the worse ones. For me, the ideas put forth as microevolution are proof of intelligent design. The creator made species that could cope with changes in their enviroment and in many cases, thrive.
I agree with Mandy though that we need to keep ID out of hte class rooms because it is a toe hold for Islamic fuckedupmentalism.
Instead of teaching evolution, teach nothing. Explain genetics, explain biology that we can all agree on, byut leave the ID and evolution stuff for college where the kids can choose what they want to get fed.

459 The Other Les  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:26:23pm

re: #450 esch

The 'Golden Rule' is not unique to Judeo/Christianity.

It's just alien to Islam.

460 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:26:31pm

re: #392 paradox42

It has nothing to do with freedom. This isn't an issue where each side has validity. One side has the facts, the other is full of crap.
And what do we do about kids whose parents are crack heads? Why deprive them of an education because their parents are waste products?

FYI, drug affected kids do just fine in a stable home, I should know I have 3 drug affected, one of which was physically abused around here somewhere (kidding, they're eating).

The worst drugs for permanent damage?
Alcohol, FAS.
Tobacco, causes in utero anoxia and brain damage.

461 Quintus_Arius  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:26:34pm

re: #388 uptight

Absolutely!

Oh and BTW, Pat Buchanan should be quiet. He is a very poor Catholic advocate. I really dislike the guy. Look what he's done to otherwise nice people on this thread.

462 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:26:40pm

re: #385 Crimsonfisted

Heresy! Bite your tongue! You need a time out young man!

I agree. That was going WAY too far.

463 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:26:45pm
464 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:26:51pm

re: #429 reine.de.tout

LOL!
I went back and re-read the comment that I accused you of trying to start an argument, and I think I was off-base thinking that. Just on first reading it struck me as argumentative.

But there are a couple here who make comments like "the big Easter Bunny in the sky", and similar comments, and those are the ones who I was talking about.

I was kind of saddened to see Goddessoftheclassroom's sign off a minute ago. I think that we have all got to realize that Charles is evolving the site as well. It is more than a defense post for those worried about Islamic threats. Frankly I sometimes get tired of the anti-islam rhetoric sometimes and find the science threads more interesting. Ones beliefs shouldn't be taunted whether it is God or Allah. Only their actions should be argued with.

465 NemoParticularis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:27:29pm

re: #377 wolfie

"However, they are still not accepting things like the obvious data that the shroud of Turin is a fake."

The "data" are not so obvious and there is good reason to doubt the veracity of the 1988 C-14 tests. This doesn'y mean the Shroud is authentic, it meas only that we need another round of tests using a better protocol.

466 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:27:48pm

re: #459 The Other Les

Ouch!

Got me on that one. 8)

467 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:27:49pm

re: #439 harpsicon

"I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."

Baha'u'llah has explicitly acknowledged that God has built a certain randomness into The System.

468 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:27:59pm

godess of the classroom - this one is for you

469 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:28:05pm

re: #437 WrathofG-d

We have seen here, on LGF, that Jews and Christians, atheists and agnostics, stand with us, and support Israel and do help. I don't think that there is another place in blogdom that is like LGF.

470 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:28:13pm

re: #423 buzzsawmonkey

That is an utterly obnoxious false dichotomy.

And it is particularly snotty of you to start waving the Golden Rule as you do, given that--proud atheist that you are--you lifted it from the religion that you despise.

OK, what I just said. Your religious beliefs are in no way, shape or form superior to my convictions. And if you continue to suggest that they are, young man/woman, I will continue to verbally bitch-slap you every time you get in my face with it. Is that clear enough?

I will not be a second-class citizen here or anywhere else.

471 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:28:23pm

re: #412 goddessoftheclassroom

No, I'm still here. It's nice to know that some would miss me.


I would too. I read a lot, do not post so much, but I am one of your readers.

472 baxtrice  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:28:59pm

re: #368 goddessoftheclassroom

My dear, I don't know you personally, but you should know everyone has their own burden to bear. Some take it out on others and don't realize it here on LGF. It's an unfortunate situation that has transitioned to our virtual habitations. Just remember, there's more good here that outweigh the bad. :)

(hope that helps!)

473 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:29:03pm

re: #359 Karridine

But public schools ARE 'government schools', Reno.

Yes, Karradine, but he has a point -- The government can/should only reflect the will of the people, not determine it. And without consensus, it resorts to coercion.

Public schools are coercive to many, many people. Perhaps most. So why not do away with them? Give every family vouchers for each child to be spent at the school of their choice. Most parents care deeply for their children. They'd choose what they honestly feel is best.

474 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:29:18pm

Even Genesis itself seems to dispute the ID doctrine..

Genesis 1:20 God also said: Let the waters bring forth the creeping creatures having life...

But fish don't creep.

475 Quintus_Arius  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:29:22pm

re: #455 Tigger2005

Nice reply. I was wrong about, well at least you. I know very little about atheism. I spoke out of turn. Sorry.

476 JeremyR  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:29:32pm

re: #412 goddessoftheclassroom

No, I'm still here. It's nice to know that some would miss me.

Miss you? I wouldn't even shoot at you.

477 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:29:55pm

re: #412 goddessoftheclassroom

Count ME among those who would feel diminished, impoverished were you to absent yourself, Goddess...

478 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:30:11pm

re: #469 NY Nana

I don't know of one, although I am quite partial for Carl In Jerusalem, and some others.

My point however is that if the people were as strong and on the path as we should be, Olmert would have never gotten in, and there would no longer be an Arab-Israeli conflict and for sure not a Phakestinian problem.

Everyday we read the Shma and it warns us. We need to listen.

479 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:30:16pm
480 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:30:30pm

re: #458 JeremyR

Goddess, I too have problems with the way some behave on these threads. I know exactly how you feel. Most of the time I simply avoid them so as to keep from getting attacked by some of the worse ones. For me, the ideas put forth as microevolution are proof of intelligent design. The creator made species that could cope with changes in their enviroment and in many cases, thrive.
I agree with Mandy though that we need to keep ID out of hte class rooms because it is a toe hold for Islamic fuckedupmentalism.
Instead of teaching evolution, teach nothing. Explain genetics, explain biology that we can all agree on, byut leave the ID and evolution stuff for college where the kids can choose what they want to get fed.

I think of how people behave, or in this case, post, as useful information. It tells me something about them, and sometime, something about myself if i feel a strong reaction. That insight into how others rationalize a position can be useful as a starting point to enlighten them further, or not. Some people are like cobras and better left alone - that's useful to know as well.

481 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:30:47pm

re: #474 Mich-again

Even Genesis itself seems to dispute the ID doctrine..

But fish don't creep.

Don't be so sure!

482 profitsbeard  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:30:52pm

re: #463 buzzsawmonkey

No?

Tell me all about where it appears in Egyptian papyrii, on cuneiform tablets, or in Linear B.

Do.

Check out "The Dawn of Conscience" by James Breasted.

A classic.

483 ornery elephant  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:31:12pm

re: #470 infidelia

OK, what I just said. Your religious beliefs are in no way, shape or form superior to my convictions. And if you continue to suggest that they are, young man/woman, I will continue to verbally bitch-slap you every time you get in my face with it. Is that clear enough?

I will not be a second-class citizen here or anywhere else.

Give me an example of any ID thread here where a person of Faith has suggested that their beliefs are superior to yours.

If you want me to find some comments that perhaps try to disprove my belief in G_d, I think I can fill a page. Don't you agree?

484 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:31:18pm

re: #337 wolfie

The answer to your last question is ABSOLUTELY NOT.

The Catholic Church has "contextualized" Genesis in many ways over the centuries. (The literalist,"historical" view, BTW, was rarely considered the best exegesis, at least in the medieval period.) But the importance and relevance of Genesis has always been central to the faith, just as it is now.

Perhaps I'm missing some deep, esoteric, non-literal reasoning.

485 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:31:22pm

re: #417 Mathew1977

It's not a theory, it's a statement. As for answering questions goes, you first:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

For bonus points, use the following criteria:

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

486 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:31:41pm

Ya know as I see it we have real enemies that really, really want to kill us.
Posters at LFG, atheists , agnostics, Deists & dyslexics that worship dog are people of good will.
Time for me to say good night.

487 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:32:08pm

re: #457 ornery elephant

And perhaps since you can understand how sacred your reality is, how important and precious your family is...perhaps a child...that when you degrade G_d in my presence or my belief in Him you've insulted the most precious thing in my life.

You mean when I say that I do not believe in your god I am insulting the most precious thing in your life? Sorry, OE, but I'm not going to say I think maybe your god could exist to make you feel better? There is no reason whatever that I should be required to do that by another adult human being. What is it about that you can't understand?

488 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:32:40pm

re: #481 jcm

Don't be so sure!

Ha. You got me there.

489 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:32:41pm

re: #473 hermeneutics

Ah, my goodness! I see, and applaud! As a 40-year teacher in various systems, I LIKE the concept of Vouchers for Viable Vigor in Education!

Thanks for the patient explanation, Herme!

490 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:32:54pm

re: #463 buzzsawmonkey

No?

Tell me all about where it appears in Egyptian papyrii, on cuneiform tablets, or in Linear B.

Do.

None of those places. But so far as I can remember (it's been a number of years), there were analogs to it in the Veda and certain asian sects.

My basic point is it's a truism that doesn't rely on acceptance of any supernatural existence.

491 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:32:56pm

re: #470 infidelia

OK, what I just said. Your religious beliefs are in no way, shape or form superior to my convictions. And if you continue to suggest that they are, young man/woman, I will continue to verbally bitch-slap you every time you get in my face with it. Is that clear enough?

I will not be a second-class citizen here or anywhere else.

re: #481 jcm

Don't be so sure!

Don't forget this one either.

492 baxtrice  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:33:04pm

re: #486 opnion

Ya know as I see it we have real enemies that really, really want to kill us.
Posters at LFG, atheists , agnostics, Deists & dyslexics that worship dog are people of good will.
Time for me to say good night.

Can I give you +10 PLEASE?

493 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:33:15pm

re: #412 goddessoftheclassroom

No, I'm still here. It's nice to know that some would miss me.

Very, very, very much.

494 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:33:23pm

re: #464 Big Steve

I agree with all of that.

495 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:33:57pm

The explanations of Genesis provided by Ricky Gervais are not safe for work, but are totally wonderful, clever and hilarious!

Part 1

Part 2

496 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:34:18pm

re: #454 hermeneutics

Perhaps I read him wrongly, but I believe he is asking for a privatization of public schools.

In my wee opinion, the debate, in essence, is this: Who decides what history, philosophy, biology, etc. is taught in school?.
Who has the power to dictate the content of education?

I'm convinced that the only solution to this debate is to allow every family to choose whatever content-based education they want for their children, thus cutting the government out of the decision-making process. In an earlier age when a general consensus prevailed, it was possible for the government to decide for many of us without offending large segments of the population. That consensus shattered. There will never be consensus again.

Perhaps, then privatization makes sense and vouchers could end this debate.

I do not want my tax dollars to support the teaching of ID at all.

497 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:34:35pm

re: #376 MandyManners

Animist, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Deist, Jew, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, et al.: we either stick together and win or, we will lose one by one.

Wasn't it Ben Franklin who said If we don't hang together, we will all hang separately.

498 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:34:43pm

re: #465 NemoParticularis

"However, they are still not accepting things like the obvious data that the shroud of Turin is a fake."

The "data" are not so obvious and there is good reason to doubt the veracity of the 1988 C-14 tests. This doesn'y mean the Shroud is authentic, it meas only that we need another round of tests using a better protocol.

This request has been made several times (more testing) but the Holy See has refused.

499 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:35:14pm

re: #492 baxtrice

Can I give you +10 PLEASE?


Well, thank you.

500 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:35:19pm

re: #469 NY Nana

We have seen here, on LGF, that Jews and Christians, atheists and agnostics, stand with us, and support Israel and do help. I don't think that there is another place in blogdom that is like LGF.

100-fucking-hundred-million up-dings, Nana!

501 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:35:49pm

re: #497 Alouette

Yup. And its as true today as it was then. Whatever our differences, they are minor compared to the common ground we share.

502 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:36:18pm

re: #468 WrathofG-d

godess of the classroom - this one is for you

Oh, bless your heart! You're a big soft, sweetie.

503 JeremyR  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:36:34pm

re: #474 Mich-again

Even Genesis itself seems to dispute the ID doctrine..


But fish don't creep.

but frogs do. many critters live part of their life in the water and part on land.

504 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:36:44pm

I do my best to not give power to anyone to define how I feel about my reality. No one can make me feel badly without my permission, on some level. Camaraderie just feels better than antagonism - but that's life.

Insult my God - and I can take it because each person will have his or her own reward. Dismiss my faith -and people do - and I can shrug it off - but I do like to clear up any falsehoods or misconceptions.

505 palarson  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:36:46pm

Okay, one more time.

If the probability of at least one of a theory's component parts (irreducible complexity) is infinitesimal then the theory's probability of correctness on the whole is equally infinitesimal. Q.E.D.

Next topic please.

506 baxtrice  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:36:59pm

re: #499 opnion

Well, thank you.

Your welcome. I recognize common sense when I see it! :)

507 gman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:37:14pm

re: #485 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not a theory, it's a statement. As for answering questions goes, you first:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

For bonus points, use the following criteria:

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

No ID supporter has been able to do that so far.
Maybe Matthew1977 will be the one?

508 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:37:37pm

I am about 200 comments behind and have no hope™ of catching up.
I think I will change™ into my PJs and do some reading.

509 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:37:37pm

re: #479 buzzsawmonkey

You're bucking for fourth-class citizen in my book, because you are a defensive snot.

And you need a lot of lessons in bitch-slapping before I begin to think about worrying.

Since I'm a 4th class citizen, I assume that in a world run by arrogant little aholes like you I would be relegated to the status of a, let's see, what's that word, dhimmi?

You want to call me snotty because I don't put the comforting fantasy that there's a giant daddy in the sky watching over me ahead of reason and reality? You big overgrown baby. You're life really would become meaningless without that, wouldn't it? Is that what bugs you about me? That mine is not?

510 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:37:40pm

re: #486 opnion

Ya know as I see it we have real enemies that really, really want to kill us.
Posters at LFG, atheists , agnostics, Deists & dyslexics that worship dog are people of good will.
Time for me to say good night.

In case you didn't notice- the Intelligent Design advocates are in bed with those enemies. Willingly.

511 HelloDare  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:38:39pm

re: #459 The Other Les

It's just alien to Islam.

Yes. Confucius - 551 BC - 479 BC

Adept Kung asked: "Is there any one word that could guide a person throughout life?"
The Master replied: "How about 'shu': never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself?"

512 ornery elephant  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:38:52pm

re: #487 infidelia

You mean when I say that I do not believe in your god I am insulting the most precious thing in your life? Sorry, OE, but I'm not going to say I think maybe your god could exist to make you feel better? There is no reason whatever that I should be required to do that by another adult human being. What is it about that you can't understand?

infidelia,

I've never asked you to match my belief. I'm asking you here and now to not to refer to my Heavenly Father as "the big daddy in the sky."

Is that more clear?

513 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:38:56pm

re: #440 Josephine

Josephine,

Israel is being sold down the river by its' government...incredible.

This video, from last year, when she still held onto hope, by the widow of Udi Goldwasser HY"D, has een on my mind all day...but the thread that Charles has? Rage, hate, and above all, a sorrow that will not go away. Charles 'gets it', and said what liberals would not. It is called the truth. I fear that if Olmert stays as PM much longer, he will do it again...and that will harm Israel so much more.

How could he exchange the baby-killing bastard? How could he? I wish that Israel had the death penalty for Kuntar.

/Sweet meats, anyone?

514 garycooper  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:39:27pm

re: #327 Charles

By the way, I've found an interview with David Berlinski of the Discovery Institute in which he very explicitly advocates allying with the Islamic creationists to promote their agenda.

Link, please!

515 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:39:49pm

re: #487 infidelia

You mean when I say that I do not believe in your god I am insulting the most precious thing in your life? Sorry, OE, but I'm not going to say I think maybe your god could exist to make you feel better? There is no reason whatever that I should be required to do that by another adult human being. What is it about that you can't understand?

Idiot! It isn't that you say you don't believe in God, it's the way you talk about God, as the big, invisible whatever in the sky, and other phrases you used on a thread the other night that were way out of line and were, in fact, degrading the beliefs of others.

You advised Goddess to remember the golden rule - so you think others should apply it to you, but don't have to apply to them?

516 NemoParticularis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:40:12pm

re: #498 Big Steve

This request has been made several times (more testing) but the Holy See has refused.

It's frustrating, but I can understand. There are other things way higher on the list of Vatican priorities. Moreover, the object itself has been poked, prodded, sticky-taped and clipped at quite a bit. Hopefully, B-16 will relent sometime soon.

517 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:40:23pm

re: #423 buzzsawmonkey

That is an utterly obnoxious false dichotomy.

And it is particularly snotty of you to start waving the Golden Rule as you do, given that--proud atheist that you are--you lifted it from the religion that you despise.

I'm shocked and disappointed to see this nasty, ugly, mean-spirited comment from you, buzz.

An atheist does not necessariy "despise" any religion. You don't believe in lots of religions. Do you despise all of those you don't believe in? Do you believe in Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny? No? Do you despise them?

Many people become atheists or agnostics through a reasoning process, not because they "despise" religion or had a bad experience with religion. Many even have a very difficult time giving up religion, and regret losing religious friends who can't accept their views, as well as the fellowship of church.

And why do you assume that infidelia is a "proud" atheist? (I'm sure you meant "proud" in the sense of "arrogant" and "condescending.") Are you a "proud" Christian?

And finally, the Golden Rule did not begin with Christianity, and is not exclusive to it, and is not inherently religious.

518 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:40:27pm

re: #512 ornery elephant

infidelia,

I've never asked you to match my belief. I'm asking you here and now to not to refer to my Heavenly Father as "the big daddy in the sky."

Is that more clear?

OE. Do not tell me what to say. If it pains you, then skip my posts.

519 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:40:42pm

re: #496 MandyManners

I do not want my tax dollars to support the teaching of ID at all.

Respecting other people means respecting their decisions, even when we disagree. We already financially support governmental programs of limited utility ... or even harm. We actively pursue change in those programs when they seem egregious enough to motivate us. Most of the time, though, we ignore what we can.

Supporting vouchers, to be "cashed in" by parents, is one of those compromises that respectful citizens would have to do.

520 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:40:48pm

re: #509 infidelia

Since I'm a 4th class citizen, I assume that in a world run by arrogant little aholes like you I would be relegated to the status of a, let's see, what's that word, dhimmi?

You want to call me snotty because I don't put the comforting fantasy that there's a giant daddy in the sky watching over me ahead of reason and reality? You big overgrown baby. You're life really would become meaningless without that, wouldn't it? Is that what bugs you about me? That mine is not?

It is reported that President Brigham Young once said that he who takes offense when no offense was intended is a fool, and he who takes offense when offense was intended is usually a fool. It was then explained that there are two courses of action to follow when one is bitten by a rattlesnake. One may, in anger, fear, or vengefulness, pursue the creature and kill it. Or he may make full haste to get the venom out of his system. If we pursue the latter course we will likely survive, but if we attempt to follow the former, we may not be around long enough to finish it. (Marion D. Hanks,

521 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:41:18pm

re: #473 hermeneutics

Yes, Karradine, but he has a point -- The government can/should only reflect the will of the people, not determine it. And without consensus, it resorts to coercion.

Public schools are coercive to many, many people. Perhaps most. So why not do away with them? Give every family vouchers for each child to be spent at the school of their choice. Most parents care deeply for their children. They'd choose what they honestly feel is best.

Vouchers? No way. I ain't paying my tax dollars to support any religious school.

522 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:42:06pm

re: #389 Geepers

Ahh, ok, you had me scared, I thought it was a new crash, same cause.

523 garycooper  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:42:39pm

re: #514 garycooper

Link, please!

sorry...didn't read far enough!

Thanks for the piece, it's a gem.

524 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:43:11pm

re: #521 MandyManners

Vouchers? No way. I ain't paying my tax dollars to support any religious school.


College pell grants go to religious schools

525 Dan G.  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:43:39pm

re: #197 Charles

Damn... accidental down ding... sorry.

526 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:43:46pm

re: #484 uptight

Perhaps I'm missing some deep, esoteric, non-literal reasoning.


I just recently finished an RCIA class, and we were taught that the point of the Genesis story, the reason it all began, was God's infinite love for us. All was created for us, because He loves us. Period. That is the point. We have what we have because of His love. That is what Genesis is supposed to teach us. We.Are.Loved.By.God. And the priest was clear that Genesis was not a treatise on science, and not to reject science.

That was what we were taught by the priest in our class.

527 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:44:07pm

re: #509 infidelia

Since I'm a 4th class citizen, I assume that in a world run by arrogant little aholes like you I would be relegated to the status of a, let's see, what's that word, dhimmi?

You want to call me snotty because I don't put the comforting fantasy that there's a giant daddy in the sky watching over me ahead of reason and reality? You big overgrown baby. You're life really would become meaningless without that, wouldn't it? Is that what bugs you about me? That mine is not?

Its crap like this that gives us atheists bad name. Just because you don't believe doesn't give you the right to disrespect those who do.

528 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:44:22pm

re: #521 MandyManners

Vouchers? No way. I ain't paying my tax dollars to support any religious school.

Oh Mandy, the whole point of vouchers is this: Vouchers go to PARENTS of children, not schools. No support of schools will be given. No support of any point of view is given.

Just supporting parents. Like you and me.

529 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:44:42pm
530 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:44:46pm

Here's an interesting Golden Rule tidbit, related to the whitepower crazies:

"The Golden Rule appears in most religions including: African Traditional1, Baha'i, Buddhism, Christianity, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam, Jainism, Judaism, Native American, Paganism, Scientology, Shintoism, Sikhism, Taoism, Wicca4 and Zoroastrianism. It appears in most generic cultures and secular philosophies: Atheism, Humanism, Greek philosophy & culture, Marxism, Roman antiquity and Persian culture. The oldest occurence of the golden rule may be one from 1970 to 1640BCE from ancient Egypt, making it a four-thousand old doctrine at least. The Egyptian empire spread its methods of religion and myths worldwide.

Yet it is not a universal belief of all religions. Nordic culture is probably an exception."


[Link: www.vexen.co.uk...]

531 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:44:53pm

re: #524 DistantThunder

College pell grants go to religious schools

College is not mandatory. Elementary and secondary schools are mandatory.

532 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:45:27pm

re: #513 NY Nana

It makes me feel sick, Nana.

533 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:45:47pm

re: #526 Crimsonfisted

I just recently finished an RCIA class, and we were taught that the point of the Genesis story, the reason it all began, was God's infinite love for us. All was created for us, because He loves us. Period. That is the point. We have what we have because of His love. That is what Genesis is supposed to teach us. We.Are.Loved.By.God. And the priest was clear that Genesis was not a treatise on science, and not to reject science.

That was what we were taught by the priest in our class.

Word.

534 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:45:58pm
535 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:46:07pm

Maybe we here just need to Slow Down a bit and try to lighten up a lot because there is just way too much friction around here. We must also remember that the world is looking in on this

The bottom line here is that we really should just all get along

G-d Bless and Goodbye

536 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:46:39pm

re: #507 gman

No ID supporter has been able to do that so far.
Maybe Matthew1977 will be the one?

I haven't seen this done by the Darwinists on this forum either.

What's the character limit, 4000 characters?

Is this really the place to perform the scientific method for any theory?

This discussion is broader in scope, hence my ignoring of the post that Slumbering has copied and pasted more times than I've been accused of whining.

537 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:46:39pm

re: #534 ploome hineni

It only applies to other muslims, as I understand it. Infidels are fair game.

538 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:46:57pm

Speaking of kids, I gtg.

Good bye.

Write me please, Goddess. Nic blue.

539 jegjr  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:47:03pm
When he isn’t writing antisemitic articles blaming high gas prices on Israel and AIPAC, or revisionist history defending Hitler’s invasion of Poland, or appearing on neo-Nazi radio shows, Pat Buchanan likes to attack the theory of evolution: Darwin’s Pyrrhic Victory by Pat Buchanan.

Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day.

540 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:47:03pm

re: #454 hermeneutics

You read me exactly.

This entire debate is pointless. I'm not criticizing Charles for bringing it up. I just think we are missing the forest for the trees. Neither side will be convinced by the other, so the debate devolves (ironic huh?) into fratricide.

Each side is Free to believe as they see fit. As I understand it, one side is based on faith and the other is based on theory.

IMHO, The solution is to get government out of education. I know that does not go over well with crypto-libs and teachers, but there it is.

Our forbearer's (sp) came to this country because of religious persecution. We see the same thing happening in the lizard community. Lizards leaving because of (perceived?) persecution.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

541 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:47:09pm

re: #534 ploome hineni

I'd pick : "My brother and I against my cousin...but my cousin and I against the stranger."

542 Kulhwch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:47:28pm

re: #75 uptight

Question: Aside from Buddhism, are there any mainstream religions that are flexible enough to embrace scientific discovery without it compromising their doctrines on God and the origins of the universe?

I'm not talking about religions that merely refuse to confront the contradictions revealed by science,

Define mainstream ...

}:)     [Just trying to get the focus here ... ]

543 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:47:47pm

I've got hungry kids raiding the fridge - better go and monitor that.

544 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:47:55pm

mahna mahna

Do do do do do

mahna mahna

Do do do do

mahna mahna

Do do do do do, Do do do, Do do do,
Do do do do do, do do do do.

You probably don't want to see this....but....here it is.

Night All!

545 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:48:00pm
I've never asked you to match my belief. I'm asking you here and now to not to refer to my Heavenly Father as "the big daddy in the sky."

OE. Do not tell me what to say. If it pains you, then skip my posts.

Reading comprehension much?

And you gotta love the "don't tell me what to say but I'll damn well tell you what to do" disassociation.

546 JeremyR  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:48:09pm

re: #534 ploome hineni

what is the 'golden rule' in islam?

Submit or I Keel you.

547 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:48:14pm

re: #500 MandyManners

Thanks, Mandy. It is true. And when you think, also, of how many countries are represented? Mind boggling.

548 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:48:19pm

re: #458 JeremyR

Explain genetics, explain biology that we can all agree on, byut leave the ID and evolution stuff for college where the kids can choose what they want to get fed.

That's an absolutely horrible idea. Most people cannot afford college. And you really cannot teach genetics or biology effectively without teaching evolution.

Kids need to learn this stuff. They are not learning it now, and we're raising generation after generation of scientific illiterates. Such a base of voters cannot make informed decisions about many important issues.

549 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:48:46pm

re: #540 Reno911

You read me exactly.

This entire debate is pointless. I'm not criticizing Charles for bringing it up. I just think we are missing the forest for the trees. Neither side will be convinced by the other, so the debate devolves (ironic huh?) into fratricide.

Each side is Free to believe as they see fit. As I understand it, one side is based on faith and the other is based on theory.

IMHO, The solution is to get government out of education. I know that does not go over well with crypto-libs and teachers, but there it is.

Our forbearer's (sp) came to this country because of religious persecution. We see the same thing happening in the lizard community. Lizards leaving because of (perceived?) persecution.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

*Lights up and takes a hit*

550 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:48:51pm

re: #521 MandyManners

Vouchers? No way. I ain't paying my tax dollars to support any religious school.


You don't have a problem with Catholics supporting the public school system with their tax dollars while paying for private school though, do you? No child of theirs will require a book from the public school, dirty a classroom or library, fill a seat, etc. Yet they should pay 100% toward the public school?
Some people are 100% for school vouchers until someone whispers in their ear, "You know this will help out the parents of Catholic school students."
School choice is good until soft bigotry steps in.

551 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:48:55pm

re: #533 MandyManners

Word.


:)

552 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:48:58pm

Hey ploome.

553 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:49:11pm

re: #528 hermeneutics

Oh Mandy, the whole point of vouchers is this: Vouchers go to PARENTS of children, not schools. No support of schools will be given. No support of any point of view is given.

Just supporting parents. Like you and me.

In Dearborn, Michigan, or in northern Virginia, which schools do you think will be the ultimate recipients of those vouchers?

What about schools around the nation which teach anti-science shit? Racist propaganda?

554 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:49:49pm
555 WhiteRasta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:50:38pm

Good night, all.

G-d Bless.

This debate is beyond my simple mind.

Fun and educational to read, all the same. (No disrespect intended towards anyone...)

Back to the Salt Mine at the crack of dawn, me.......

556 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:50:52pm

re: #547 NY Nana

Thanks, Mandy. It is true. And when you think, also, of how many countries are represented? Mind boggling.

My mind is beyond boggling at this point.

557 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:51:05pm

re: #554 ploome hineni

well, that is not the golden rule

I wonder what he means by saying islam has a 'golden rule'?

Actually I think they have an 'Aural' rule.

558 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:51:14pm

re: #513 NY Nana

Here you should enjoy this.

~~now I'm really out.

559 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:51:37pm

re: #556 MandyManners

My mind is beyond boggling at this point.


Crap. Now I WANT to play Boggle! Who's up for a game?

560 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:51:38pm
561 ploome hineni[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:52:08pm
562 calcajun  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:52:12pm

re: #7 coquimbojoe

No. Corporlite is firmer.

563 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:52:20pm

re: #550 EC Marm

You don't have a problem with Catholics supporting the public school system with their tax dollars while paying for private school though, do you? No child of theirs will require a book from the public school, dirty a classroom or library, fill a seat, etc. Yet they should pay 100% toward the public school?
Some people are 100% for school vouchers until someone whispers in their ear, "You know this will help out the parents of Catholic school students."
School choice is good until soft bigotry steps in.

I don't mind paying my taxes for the public schools. But that there Catholic HS is mighty 'spensive (1 year tuition greater than 2 semesters in-state tuition at LSU).

The good news - when daughter gets out of HS, I will be rich.

564 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:52:25pm

re: #509 infidelia

Since I'm a 4th class citizen, I assume that in a world run by arrogant little aholes like you I would be relegated to the status of a, let's see, what's that word, dhimmi?

You want to call me snotty because I don't put the comforting fantasy that there's a giant daddy in the sky watching over me ahead of reason and reality? You big overgrown baby. You're life really would become meaningless without that, wouldn't it? Is that what bugs you about me? That mine is not?

I am beginning to think that you have some serious, unresolved issues with your father, and are taking it out on people of faith in some form of transference.

565 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:53:00pm

And from sunny, breezy, jasmine-drenched suburban Bangkok on this fine Thursday morning (celebrating the Threefold Miracle of Buddha's Birth on this day, His Enlightenment on this day and His death on this day; formally a national holy day in Thailand), I bid you fond adieu, I've tasks to attend.

BBIAW

566 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:53:23pm

re: #560 ploome hineni

This is as close as it gets in Islam:
"None of you [truly] believes until he wishes for his brother what he wishes for himself." Number 13 of Imam "Al-Nawawi's Forty Hadiths."
Which could allow for a lot of wiggle room.

567 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:53:50pm

I heard that Pat Buchanan is an Intelligent Design advocate.

That's troubling.

568 Metal Man  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:54:23pm

re: #553 MandyManners

You mean like the schools that teach children to fear the evil Bushitler and love your mother earth that I am paying for now.

569 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:54:48pm

You can personally believe in ID or not- I don't care.

You can personally believe in God or not- I don't care.

But the fact remains that IDers want to indoctrinate your kids in their faith, not yours (unless you're one of them). On this point, I do care. Keep your paws off other people's kids!

The fact also remains that the IDers are willingly in bed with islamists.

That is what this debate is about, and I, for one, am thankful Charles has exposed this unholy alliance to promote ignorance.

570 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:55:36pm

re: #569 Sharmuta

Second that, Sharmy!

571 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:55:37pm

re: #423 buzzsawmonkey

That is an utterly obnoxious false dichotomy.

And it is particularly snotty of you to start waving the Golden Rule as you do, given that--proud atheist that you are--you lifted it from the religion that you despise.

That's an utterly obnoxious comment.

You can't demonstrate the "lifting" from anywhere let alone whatever religion you refer to, nor can you demonstrate the despising.

572 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:56:12pm

re: #550 EC Marm

You don't have a problem with Catholics supporting the public school system with their tax dollars while paying for private school though, do you? No child of theirs will require a book from the public school, dirty a classroom or library, fill a seat, etc. Yet they should pay 100% toward the public school?
Some people are 100% for school vouchers until someone whispers in their ear, "You know this will help out the parents of Catholic school students."
School choice is good until soft bigotry steps in.

What's this "Catholic" thing?

573 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:56:31pm

re: #515 reine.de.tout

Idiot! It isn't that you say you don't believe in God, it's the way you talk about God, as the big, invisible whatever in the sky, and other phrases you used on a thread the other night that were way out of line and were, in fact, degrading the beliefs of others.

You advised Goddess to remember the golden rule - so you think others should apply it to you, but don't have to apply to them?


It isn't that I say I don't believe in God, it's the way I talk about him?

Will you listen to yourself?

I don't believe in ""God. You want me to respect and reverence something I do not believe exists. You don't hear that as insulting because you give my convictions no weight whatsoever. I respect your right to use your mind as you see fit and believe whatever you want. But that's not what you want, is it? You want me to bow to the belief itself. Speak only respectfully of it. Don't hurt your feelings. Never mind mine, I'm an atheist, it's not like I'm a human being.

I'd tell you to go to Hell, but I don't believe in that, either. (I don't believe there's a place where people like me are tortured for all of eternity, I guess that really makes me a bitch.)

574 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:56:39pm

re: #196 justdanny

"relegated to a philosophy classroom" ?

Please. It belongs in no public school classroom.

Freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

Keep it in your home and your church and your heart. Leave me alone with it. No one is trying to stop you from worshipping your way, and I will do all I can to defend your right to worship as you wish. But leave me alone with it.

I wouldn't go quite that far...
I have no problem with religious issues being presented in a philosophy class, or a course on comparative religions/religions of the world or the like.

Freedom of religion most emphatically doesn't mean "freedom from religion"... it means that the government may not establish or promote a religion as an official or preferred belief system. It does not mean complete removal of any religious references from the public square.

ID belongs in the philosophy/religion realm of a school curriculum if it is to be presented. It isn't science, and does not belong in a science class.

575 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:56:52pm

re: #550 EC Marm

You don't have a problem with Catholics supporting the public school system with their tax dollars while paying for private school though, do you? No child of theirs will require a book from the public school, dirty a classroom or library, fill a seat, etc. Yet they should pay 100% toward the public school?
Some people are 100% for school vouchers until someone whispers in their ear, "You know this will help out the parents of Catholic school students."
School choice is good until soft bigotry steps in.

576 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:57:27pm

re: #550 EC Marm


What about people whose kids are grown, or those w/o kids....should they pay taxes for education?

577 JeremyR  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:57:28pm

re: #548 Tigger2005

That's an absolutely horrible idea. Most people cannot afford college. And you really cannot teach genetics or biology effectively without teaching evolution.

Kids need to learn this stuff. They are not learning it now, and we're raising generation after generation of scientific illiterates. Such a base of voters cannot make informed decisions about many important issues.

Sure you can. I've read plenty of the stuff denigrating evolution, and am of the opinion it is SWAG at best. Consider all the variables involved in the dna of the simplest creature, and imagine how that could happen by chance to begin with. For sexual critters, it gets even more mind boggling, because you have to have two, a male and a female evolve at the same time and in the same place.

As our world changes, why are we not seeing more radical evolution? Sure we see animals adapt, without that adaptability, they would have become extinct long ago, but that is not evolution to me. calling it microevolution is couching to make macro evolution palapable, and to me it is not.

I'm a mathmatician, and for me, the possibility is too infintesimal to give credence to. There is a greater probability that the next meteorite to hit earth will be the exact size shape and configuration as an H-1 hummer, and that it will hit in my back yard WITH a full tank of gas.

When that happens, I will give macro evolution a second look.

578 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:57:38pm

re: #520 DistantThunder

DT, you are wise, but I am up to my ass in rattlesnakes, here.

579 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:57:40pm

re: #549 Mathew1977

*Lights up and takes a hit*

This kind of crap is going to get you banned.

580 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:57:41pm

re: #569 Sharmuta

I regret that I have but one up-ding to give to your post.

581 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:58:30pm

re: #534 ploome hineni

what is the 'golden rule' in islam?

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

582 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:59:05pm

re: #571 Naso Tang

That's an utterly obnoxious comment.

You can't demonstrate the "lifting" from anywhere let alone whatever religion you refer to, nor can you demonstrate the despising.

Thanks NT. I couldn't figure out the connection there either.

583 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:59:24pm

re: #558 WrathofG-d

Thanks! I may not be old enough for it. ;)

Take care.

584 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:59:26pm

re: #563 reine.de.tout

I don't mind paying my taxes for the public schools. But that there Catholic HS is mighty 'spensive (1 year tuition greater than 2 semesters in-state tuition at LSU).

The good news - when daughter gets out of HS, I will be rich.


Some of the numbers for Catholic HS tuition in my area are now in the 10k per year range. Which is pretty bad until you realize the local public school costs the taxpayers 18k per year per student.

585 Irish Rose  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:59:56pm

Good evening, lizards.

Great topics tonight, Charles.

586 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:00:06pm

re: #581 Naso Tang

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

Only till the shooting stops.

587 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:00:08pm

The ID bandwagon is getting pretty crowded.

Self-professed Christians, neo-Nazis, outright anti-Semites, Muslim fundamentalists.

I think there's more than one troll underneath that bridge they're building.

588 melinwy  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:00:09pm

re: #203 reine.de.tout
well said :-)

589 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:00:24pm

re: #577 JeremyR


I'm a mathmatician, and for me, the possibility is too infintesimal to give credence to. There is a greater probability that the next meteorite to hit earth will be the exact size shape and configuration as an H-1 hummer, and that it will hit in my back yard WITH a full tank of gas.

Ok, show me.

Show me why "the possibility is too infintesimal to give credence" or "There is a greater probability that the next meteorite to hit earth will be the exact size shape and configuration as an H-1 hummer".

590 Catttt  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:00:52pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Nonsense. People of all sorts post here. We have differing opinions. I'm Christian, but putting ID in science class is stupid, and intelligent Christians should see this clearly - it is not science. It is not really philosophy either. It is an attempt to explain God scientifically. It is a boondoggle.

As for you feeling dissed or whatever - grow a spine, if you will pardon my crassness just this once. It's a tough room.

591 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:00:57pm

re: #579 Charles
That should not surprise anyone, listen to his arguments, and look closely at his avatar. This guy seems to be running on that last brain cell.

592 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:01:14pm

Considering all these points about PB...

"When he isn’t writing antisemitic articles blaming high gas prices on Israel and AIPAC, or revisionist history defending Hitler’s invasion of Poland, or appearing on neo-Nazi radio shows, Pat Buchanan likes to attack the theory of evolution"

... is this man a Christian?

593 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:01:17pm

re: #573 infidelia

You want me to bow to the belief itself. Speak only respectfully of it. Don't hurt your feelings.


Speak with some respect to those who believe is all that is being asked. For absolutely no reason at all except that you seem to like the phrase, you throw in something about the "giant daddy in the sky". That is incredibly childish.

I'd tell you to go to Hell, but I don't believe in that, either. (I don't believe there's a place where people like me are tortured for all of eternity, I guess that really makes me a bitch.)


How sweet and respectful of you.

594 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:01:25pm

re: #536 Mathew1977

Here is a nice vid from a Catholic dude, for your edification. It is just under two hours long, but if you posses any intellectual honesty you will watch the whole thing.

595 Cartman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:01:31pm

re: #573 infidelia

Lot of anger there, eh? You might want to consider seeing a professional about that. It's rather disturbing.

596 gman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:02:11pm

re: #536 Mathew1977

I haven't seen this done by the Darwinists on this forum either.

What's the character limit, 4000 characters?

Is this really the place to perform the scientific method for any theory?

This discussion is broader in scope, hence my ignoring of the post that Slumbering has copied and pasted more times than I've been accused of whining.

Just tell me how you would go about experimenting with supernatural phenomena.

597 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:03:46pm

re: #595 Cartman

Lot of anger there, eh? You might want to consider seeing a professional about that. It's rather disturbing.

Cartman, you do your namesake justice. He's a fatheaded jerk too.

598 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:03:47pm

re: #576 BignJames

What about people whose kids are grown, or those w/o kids....should they pay taxes for education?


Sheez. Of course they should. Even if every cent of their Social Security check(s) goes toward the local school system. Let them eat cat food and dried dog biscuits if necessary. Even if they've been paying school taxes for thirty years (as I have) there is absolutely no reason they should get a break.

/ need I?

599 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:04:09pm

re: #596 gman

gman- his post isn't even accurate. Quite a few Lizards with scientific backgrounds have posted about evolution. This troll is now just lying through his teeth.

600 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:04:11pm

re: #579 Charles

This kind of crap is going to get you banned.

I was responding to the phrase, 'put that in your pipe and smoke it.'

Do you read your own blog?

601 The Other Les  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:04:29pm

re: #581 Naso Tang

The enemy of my enemy is my friend?

"The enemy of my enemy is a tool that I can use."

Totalitarians are funny that way.

602 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:04:48pm

That was the last straw.

603 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:05:11pm

re: #600 Mathew1977
Good lord man, you ARE an idiot, arent you. Bye!

604 Cartman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:05:19pm

re: #597 infidelia

Either bite me, or go piss up a rope.

Your choice.

605 gman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:05:37pm

buh bye

606 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:05:47pm

Crawdads on the path at Brazos Bend park sometime raise their claws up to challenge the people walking by.

607 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:05:56pm

re: #603 CapeCoddah

Good lord man, you ARE an idiot, arent you. Bye!

What happened to Mathew1977? He still owes me a beer.

608 Shug  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:06:22pm

tonight we're gonna party like it's 1977

609 ornery elephant  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:06:28pm

re: #603 CapeCoddah

do you get a cupie doll now, Coddah? : )

610 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:06:36pm

Just to beg the question, exactly what is it about the phrase "giant invisible daddy in the sky" that is getting all you believers so riled up? It's not saying anything bad. It is merely pointing out the concept of an infinite invisible father figure out in space, which is one way of describing that which you believe in. I'm curious. What button am I pushing here?

And by the way, where is giant invisible mommy?

611 JeremyR  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:06:39pm

re: #589 freetoken

Ok, show me.

Show me why "the possibility is too infintesimal to give credence" or "There is a greater probability that the next meteorite to hit earth will be the exact size shape and configuration as an H-1 hummer".

I'm not going to waste my time trying to change your mind. I didn't come here for that. I simply stated that in MY OPINION THE CHANCES JUST ARE NOT THERE.

612 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:06:58pm

re: #598 EC Marm


Heh....I can tolerate the taxes....but I think we should get our monies worth.

613 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:07:01pm

re: #569 Sharmuta

You can personally believe in ID or not- I don't care.

You can personally believe in God or not- I don't care.

But the fact remains that IDers want to indoctrinate your kids in their faith, not yours (unless you're one of them). On this point, I do care. Keep your paws off other people's kids!

The fact also remains that the IDers are willingly in bed with islamists.

That is what this debate is about, and I, for one, am thankful Charles has exposed this unholy alliance to promote ignorance.

I LOVE YOU, SHARMUTA!

614 Irish Rose  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:07:31pm

re: #600 Mathew1977

I was responding to the phrase, 'put that in your pipe and smoke it.'

Do you read your own blog?

Oh, yeah.
Got a live one tonight.

615 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:07:32pm

re: #602 Charles

Thank you!

616 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:07:45pm

re: #607 Walter L. Newton
You are gonna have to take a raincheck!

617 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:07:50pm

re: #613 MandyManners

I love you too Mandy!

618 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:07:57pm

re: #604 Cartman

Either bite me, or go piss up a rope.

Your choice.

Cartman, that's so Christian of you. Just feel the lurve...

619 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:08:13pm

re: #616 CapeCoddah

You are gonna have to take a raincheck!

Shit.

620 CapeCoddah  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:09:05pm

re: #609 ornery elephant
I sure hope not! Those things give me the creeps.

621 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:09:29pm

re: #614 Irish Rose

Oh, yeah.
Got a live one tonight.

Not anymore.

More like an Hors Doevre.

622 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:09:42pm

re: #610 infidelia

Just to beg the question, exactly what is it about the phrase "giant invisible daddy in the sky" that is getting all you believers so riled up? It's not saying anything bad. It is merely pointing out the concept of an infinite invisible father figure out in space, which is one way of describing that which you believe in. I'm curious. What button am I pushing here?

And by the way, where is giant invisible mommy?

You're an asshat.

623 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:10:03pm

re: #540 Reno911

You read me exactly.

This entire debate is pointless. I'm not criticizing Charles for bringing it up. I just think we are missing the forest for the trees. Neither side will be convinced by the other, so the debate devolves (ironic huh?) into fratricide.

Each side is Free to believe as they see fit. As I understand it, one side is based on faith and the other is based on theory.

IMHO, The solution is to get government out of education. I know that does not go over well with crypto-libs and teachers, but there it is.

Our forbearer's (sp) came to this country because of religious persecution. We see the same thing happening in the lizard community. Lizards leaving because of (perceived?) persecution.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

Were you born an asshole or did you take a couse on how to be one?

624 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:10:45pm

re: #623 MandyManners

Were you born an asshole or did you take a couse on how to be one?

Correspondence course, authored by infidelia.

625 gman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:10:57pm

re: #599 Sharmuta

gman- his post isn't even accurate. Quite a few Lizards with scientific backgrounds have posted about evolution. This troll is now just lying through his teeth.

Just wanted to have a little fun with the troll.
I'm glad slumby keeps posting the steps to the scientific method because its like fly paper for ID trolls.

626 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:11:19pm

re: #619 Walter L. Newton

Shit.


In order to keep us Christian's from looking like total fools, I'll buy. Watcha' having? My personal favorite is 1554.

627 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:11:47pm

re: #601 The Other Les

"The enemy of my enemy is a tool that I can use."

Totalitarians are funny that way.

I believe that is where the term useful idiot came from.

628 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:11:50pm

re: #555 WhiteRasta

Everyone should have such a simple mind! Sweet dreams.

629 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:11:52pm

re: #611 JeremyR

I'm not going to waste my time trying to change your mind. I didn't come here for that. I simply stated that in MY OPINION THE CHANCES JUST ARE NOT THERE.

Hmmm, you made it sound that since you are a mathematician, that somehow your conclusions were based on some deep (likely quantitative) reasoning... if so then here is one chance to share that.

Oh, and it might also be possible that you don't really know my "mind"....

630 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:12:07pm

Infidelia,

Is this you?

Or is this You?

Or is this You?

You seem to be a rabid aetheist bordering on proselytization for non belief. You are insulting people and their beliefs without call. What's your purpose?

631 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:12:25pm

re: #623 MandyManners

I was born one, what's your excuse?

632 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:12:31pm

re: #625 gman

Just wanted to have a little fun with the troll.
I'm glad slumby keeps posting the steps to the scientific method because its like fly paper for ID trolls.

I like that Sleepy B keeps posting it too. But now with troll-boy gone, I guess Sleepy will have to keep waiting for an answer. Although- we know he'll be waiting regardless.

633 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:12:41pm

re: #604 Cartman

Either bite me, or go piss up a rope.

Your choice.

How about the subject bite your rope?

634 SasquatchOnSteroids  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:13:13pm

Qaddafi is ranting again

Highlights ?

"Our Brother Obama" I don't know how many times.
Maybe a MyBarackObama poster ?

Crazy Reagan.
hehheh.

Ben-Gurion killed Kennedy.
OK.

"Israel is only 15 km wide. What kind of country is 15 km wide?"
(hint - one that kicks arab army ass everytime it has faced it.)

635 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:13:22pm

re: #626 jcm

In order to keep us Christian's from looking like total fools, I'll buy. Watcha' having? My personal favorite is 1554.

I don't drink anymore. But, I respect your offer. Now that I have stopped drinking (2 years ago), they make Absthine (sp?) legal in the states and we now have Sunday beer sales in Colorado. I'm always late for the party.

636 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:13:40pm

The only thing I'll say about disrespect towards a person's view about G_d is I'm amazed at the number of supposedly devout people who demand respect but don't show it to other's. For example, I have a converted Jew in my large family of Lutherans and have been disgusted at their treatment of him.

637 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:13:43pm

re: #612 BignJames

Heh....I can tolerate the taxes....but I think we should get our monies worth.


But what gets some people into a tizzy is the thought that tax collecting agencies should collect school taxes to support the public school at 18k per student per year, while the parent that desires his/her child to go to a different school at half the cost should pay for both their choice AND the public school. I've seen the achievement numbers on SAT scores and a half dozen other criteria and the Catholic schools are doing just as good a job, if not better than the public schools. The taxpayers are getting royally ripped and I'm tired of it.

638 Irish Rose  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:13:46pm
Keep movin', movin', movin',
Though they're disapprovin',
Keep them doggies movin' Rawhide!
Don't try to understand 'em,
Just rope and throw and grab 'em,
Soon we'll be living high and wide.

Count 'em out, ride 'em in,
Ride 'em in, count 'em out,
Count 'em out, ride 'em in
Rawhide!

Seeya.

639 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:13:58pm

re: #622 Walter L. Newton

You're an asshat.

That's a lovely, rational answer, Walter. Your Father Who Art In Heaven must be proud of you.

Now. You lot can have a blog where only the believers in "God" are worthy of respect and the rest of us have to be good little boys and girls, or you whining supernaturalists can grow up and get on with it saving your world from the Islamists. You want to argue about "respect"? Try it with those guys.

640 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:15:02pm

re: #635 Walter L. Newton

I don't drink anymore. But, I respect your offer. Now that I have stopped drinking (2 years ago), they make Absthine (sp?) legal in the states and we now have Sunday beer sales in Colorado. I'm always late for the party.

Good for you.

641 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:15:15pm

re: #573 infidelia

I'd tell you to go to Hell, but I don't believe in that, either. (I don't believe there's a place where people like me are tortured for all of eternity, I guess that really makes me a bitch.)

It's not your beliefs, it's your choice of words.

P.S.: In case you haven't noticed, some atheists here are sick of your tone as well.

642 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:15:21pm

The arguments over ID versus Evolution pale in comparison to the ugliness over discussions about the origin of life itself. Its an article of faith to believe in a creator, sure. But those who scoff at the notion of a creator do not like being reminded that they have no proof for their belief about the OOL either. hoo boy.

643 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:15:38pm

re: #638 Irish Rose

Seeya.

"Chickenwire"?

644 Wendya  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:15:43pm

Okay.... is evolution the only field of we're expected to dumb down for people incapable of separating faith from science or is this merely the first salvo?

645 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:16:48pm

re: #639 infidelia

That's a lovely, rational answer, Walter. Your Father Who Art In Heaven must be proud of you.

Now. You lot can have a blog where only the believers in "God" are worthy of respect and the rest of us have to be good little boys and girls, or you whining supernaturalists can grow up and get on with it saving your world from the Islamists. You want to argue about "respect"? Try it with those guys.

Asshat. Not rational, not meant to be. It was said with all the anger that I could muster. Why did you assume I was being rational? Just to be able to go on and make your point.

646 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:17:11pm

re: #641 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not your beliefs, it's your choice of words.

P.S.: In case you haven't noticed, some atheists here are sick of your tone as well.

Count me in!

647 Cartman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:17:33pm

re: #639 infidelia

You sound like a self-absorbed, petulant little child.

648 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:17:33pm

re: #637 EC Marm


1. Education is the default major for low scoring college kids. 2. Teacher's unions 3. democrats

649 Irish Rose  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:17:45pm

#639 infidelia 7/16/08 8:13:58 pm reply quote 0

re: #622 Walter L. Newton

You're an asshat.

That's a lovely, rational answer, Walter. Your Father Who Art In Heaven must be proud of you.

Jaysus, what a moronic jackass.

650 gman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:17:48pm

re: #632 Sharmuta

I like that Sleepy B keeps posting it too. But now with troll-boy gone, I guess Sleepy will have to keep waiting for an answer. Although- we know he'll be waiting regardless.

We will just have to be patient as we wait for our first testable, falsifiable experiment involving the supernatural.

651 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:17:48pm

"you lot" is a Brit phrase, btw.

652 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:18:07pm

re: #641 Slumbering Behemoth

It's not your beliefs, it's your choice of words.

P.S.: In case you haven't noticed, some atheists here are sick of your tone as well.

That's too bad. Now you listen to me one more time. I will not be bullied into saying yes ma'am no ma'am to someone just because they believe in a GIANT INVISIBLE MAN IN THE SKY and I do not. Not by you, not by other atheists, not by anyone.

This fight is too important to waste time on crap like this.

Charles, thanks for all you do.

653 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:18:10pm

bye y'all

654 JeremyR  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:18:11pm

re: #629 freetoken

Hmmm, you made it sound that since you are a mathematician, that somehow your conclusions were based on some deep (likely quantitative) reasoning... if so then here is one chance to share that.

Oh, and it might also be possible that you don't really know my "mind"....

Don't care to know your mind, or to waste my time arguing with you.

655 Olderthandirt  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:18:15pm

Pat Buchanan is missing many points as are many of his detractors. IMHO, Buchanan is a a racist, bigot, and ignorant fool, unwilling to face facts such as those regarding WWII and others. One beauty of the 1st Amendment is that it provides a mechanism for people like Buchanan to self-identify themselves as fools of the first order.

As for myself, I do believe in God and if others do not, that is their concern not mine. I also accept the theories of evolution. Our universe, our very existence, became possible eons ago, some people say that was 15-Billions years ago. What caused our universe to come into existence? IMO, it was the finger, the hand, of God. I can't prove that, no one can disprove that. I do believe that. Argue for or against my beliefs, remember that my beliefs need not be yours nor yours mine.

Peace be unto Thee, even you unbelievers. Too many damned bigots, on both sides, still troll this blog but then it's Charles's domain to police not mine.

656 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:18:36pm

re: #644 Wendya

Okay.... is evolution the only field of we're expected to dumb down for people incapable of separating faith from science or is this merely the first salvo?

This is first salvo. With advice from their PR firm they are adding global warming, cloning, and stem cell research to the mix to expand their base.

657 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:18:42pm

re: #639 infidelia

There is blame on both sides. Some people of faith have shown less tolerance than they should, and some atheists have been very self-righteous and intolerant in return. You seem to have an axe to grind with religion. Do the rest of the atheists on this board a favor and keep it to yourself. If you don't care about offending the religious people here, than at least try to care about not making us atheist look like schmucks.

658 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:19:31pm

re: #576 BignJames

What about people whose kids are grown, or those w/o kids....should they pay taxes for education?

I know you didn't ask me, but I am gonna open my big yap anyway.

As a person without kids, I have no problem whatsoever with paying taxes for public schools.

The children today will grow to be the doctors, lawyers, scientists, statesmen, etc., that I will need help from tomorrow. I want them all to have an opportunity for education.

659 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:19:57pm

re: #556 MandyManners

My mind is beyond boggling at this point.

Mind? What's a mind? But boggling? That I understand. ;)

660 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:20:02pm

re: #648 BignJames

1. Education is the default major for low scoring college kids. 2. Teacher's unions 3. democrats


Yup. Number 22

661 kansas  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:20:58pm

Darwinism is headed for the compost pile of discarded ideas because it cannot back up its claims. It must be taken on faith.

So your faith will end up on the compost pile of discarded ideas? I think someone just stepped under the bus.

662 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:21:18pm

Aetheists who go out of their way to bash faith are weak in their disbelief, epistmological cowards.

663 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:21:31pm

re: #652 infidelia

That's too bad. Now you listen to me one more time. I will not be bullied into saying yes ma'am no ma'am to someone just because they believe in a GIANT INVISIBLE MAN IN THE SKY and I do not. Not by you, not by other atheists, not by anyone.

This fight is too important to waste time on crap like this.

Charles, thanks for all you do.

I think you need to take a step back and rethink the direction in which you're headed. You're not helping the cause by gratuitously insulting people.

664 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:22:07pm

re: #639 infidelia

That's a lovely, rational answer, Walter. Your Father Who Art In Heaven must be proud of you.

Ok, I will insult you rationaly, with culture and finesse.

I don't like mice, I don't like men and I don't like John Steinbeck. And I don't like you.

/

665 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:23:12pm

re: #656 Thanos

This is first salvo. With advice from their PR firm they are adding global warming, cloning, and stem cell research to the mix to expand their base.

You're right, but there's more- they're trying to up-end the very definitions of science, as I'm sure you know. But for those who don't know, it's called "theistic realism".

666 Metal Man  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:23:40pm

The thing that is hardest about these debates is they cross so many lines politically and religiously. In the middle of all of it we start arguing over vouchers or creation and that argument gets applied to ones beliefs on the ID question.

Though before these ID threads started I did not see the problem with it. I do now see the evil behind the push to get into the public schools and the slope it takes us down.

I have had to unteach my children many things about science, life and politics that they were taught in public school. So inferences that the current system is OK get me riled. Though I would guess that was probably not the point to the post I responded to or what most are saying.

Point being that it is real easy to get caught in the crossfire if you try to stand in the middle.

667 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:24:46pm

I'm really sorry that some of the believers on here are feeling persecuted--and I don't agree with those athiests who have ridiculed the whole idea of belief in general in a nasty way (although it does seem like infidelia was provoked by buzzsawmonkey, but I haven't read many of infidelia's posts so maybe buzzsawmonkey was himself provoked by things infidelia said in other posts...and so on...). On the other hand, it does seem like people are being overly sensitive, and sometimes seeing attacks where there aren't any. However it may seem, atheists and agnostics are in the minority here, and they are in the minority everywhere. It's almost impossible for a declared atheist to get elected to any high office. Atheists regularly get ridiculed and lumped together with the worst scum of the earth. They are accused of "believing in nothing" except possibly their own pleasure. In a previous thread, Killgore Trout was accused of being a "nihilist."

I do wish the thoughtless, generalized attacks (atheists this, atheists that--Christians this, Christians that) would stop. We are all individuals and we often don't fit into stereotypes. No, all atheists do not "hate" the very idea of God or a Creator, or resent the idea of moral laws and constraints, or "despise" religion.

But the issue being debated is not the merits of belief versus disbelief. Religion per se is not being attacked. Belief in God is not being attacked. What's being debated is whether ID has any validity as a science (please remember that the prominent IDers have conceded publicly that evolution is indeed science), whether it is religious doctrine and theology posing as science, and whether it has any place in science classrooms. And the facts and evidence are clearly on the side of those who argue that ID is not science, that it is a specific religious doctrine being presented as science, and that it violates the Establishment Clause. Furthermore, the facts and evidence are on the side of those who argue that despite their claims to the contrary, those who wish to place ID in schools do indeed have a religious agenda.

I find it hard to have patience with those who, when the facts and evidence are not on their side, cry "persecution" instead of accepting reality. Now, I realize that's not why some believers on here say they're feeling persecuted. But all I can say is, when I first started posting on LGF, I felt like a minority and got zapped from time to time when I stated I was an atheist, but I don't remember complaining about it or considering moving on. Really, if it bothers you THAT much you need to take it just a little less seriously. We may be having some knock-down, drag-out fist fights here, but in the end, we all know who the real enemy is.

668 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:24:59pm

I'm starting to wonder if infidelia is a moby, trying to irk an ire against atheist?

669 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:25:28pm

re: #604 Cartman

Have you had your rabies shot, just in case?

670 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:25:31pm

re: #660 EC Marm

Parents are at least as responsible for how much a student learns as are the teachers. One very big reason that private schools typically outperform public schools in standardized testing is that Mom and Dad are shelling out big bucks for the private education and they stay more involved.

I cringe when I hear statistics that give all the credit/blame for a school's success to the teachers and completely disregard the parents' contribution or lack thereof to the whole effort.

671 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:25:54pm

re: #652 infidelia

That's too bad. Now you listen to me one more time. I will not be bullied into saying yes ma'am no ma'am to someone just because they believe in a GIANT INVISIBLE MAN IN THE SKY and I do not. Not by you, not by other atheists, not by anyone.

This fight is too important to waste time on crap like this.

Charles, thanks for all you do.

Earth to dumbass: This is not about what you believe or do not believe, it is about how you choose to express yourself.

672 hazzyday  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:26:07pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

You're painting too broadly and suffering from MiM syndrome. I believe in God, I believe in a creator, I think the universe is on an inteligent timeline and that evolution is part of that time line. I disagree with people who lock onto a misinterpetation of the Bible and then insist evolution conflicts with God. They can believe that if they want, but I don't really want them having any power or any part of my life. I have enough trouble with the government.

Back up, look at your own faith closer and seethe a little bit less. If you can emulate radical muslims less in your arguement everyone will enjoy you better.

673 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:26:29pm

re: #630 Thanos


You seem to be a rabid aetheist bordering on proselytization for non belief. You are insulting people and their beliefs without call. What's your purpose?

It's easy to use words, and concepts, here that we don't usually use at the dinner table, and I dare say that is one reason we are here instead of chatting with the in-laws. Something could, in retrospect, always be said in a gentler tone than it was, and if Charles allowed edits, perhaps some would be. However I often see flaming of a post that ignores that the origin of the topic, and in particular that there are often two parties throwing the insults.

In the case of atheists, there is little defense forthcoming when they are called, for example, parasites of peoples morality, which I find offensive. On the other hand I don't think I've ever told anyone they were an asshole, shit, or should go piss up a rope; but plenty of good Christians have said so.

We don't hesitate to lambast Muslims when they go crazy about silly cartoons, and I suggest that the best way to avoid similar behavior, if insult is the only available response, is to ignore.

674 melinwy  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:26:44pm

re: #338 WrathofG-d

thanks for that, beautiful

675 Irish Rose  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:26:57pm

re: #667 Tigger2005

Upding!

676 kalvinb  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:27:33pm

Evolution, in the strictest sense, doesn't deal with the problem of something coming from nothing or life coming from non-life.

Those two problems come before Evolution.

The Atheist, however, does have to deal with those issues.

Not under the umbrella of Evolution, but under the umbrella of their belief system as a whole.

Other than that technicallity, he's spot on. To be an Atheist requires a lot of faith. A lot of what Evolution teaches also relies on faith.

"Atheist" and "Evolutionist" tend to get melded into being the same thing for that reason. The only reason there is a distinction is because of the argument that maybe God created the first spark of life and then went away for billions of years.

677 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:27:55pm

re: #667 Tigger2005

It's a carryover thing, and I hate when people do that too. Each thread people should start afresh, and address that topic. They shouldn't carry slights and vendettas thread to thread, things get rather circular and boring when that happens.

678 Kulhwch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:28:36pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

If I do, I'd have to say 5% for the former, and 95% for the latter.

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Goodie.  Just as long as the other philosophies are taught as well, just to make it fair.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

I think it's very telling.  My opinion, you know.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

Ah, but I'm a fellow Lizard, and I believe in at least one Deity.  As a matter of fact, when talking just numbers, I probably pick up the slack for those who don't believe in any.  So it evens out ...

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Ah, that's fucking bullshit.  It's turning hostile against those who would sublimate science by fostering a chimera of bad religion, bad science, and looney thinking, and then trying to mate it to science.  If you want to whine and play the victim, don't let me stop you, but if that's your reason, you're just exhibiting a homegrown version of grievance theatre .... your boohoos are understood for what they really are ...

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

Our founding fathers became hostile to those who believe in a Creator?

}:)     [Excuse me?]

679 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:29:51pm

re: #676 kalvinb

"kalvinb" believes the earth is only 6,000 years old, and that people rode dinosaurs.

680 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:30:32pm

re: #673 Naso Tang

Yes but there are ways to defend yourself without being offensive. I seem to do ok most of the time. This is a carryover, it really started last night, and it's truly getting non-productive, boring and jejune.

681 Cartman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:30:46pm

re: #673 Naso Tang

On the other hand I don't think I've ever told anyone they were an asshole, shit, or should go piss up a rope; but plenty of good Christians have said so.

Well, bullly for you.

682 Irish Rose  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:31:10pm

re: #679 Charles

"kalvinb" believes the earth is only 6,000 years old, and that people rode dinosaurs.

Too many caveman flicks.

683 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:31:49pm

re: #670 Mich-again


I cringe when I hear statistics that give all the credit/blame for a school's success to the teachers and completely disregard the parents' contribution or lack thereof to the whole effort.

Speaking of statistics... today's news on the success, or lack thereof, in getting California students to graduate:
California high school dropout rate far higher than expected

SACRAMENTO -- California's first true count of high school dropouts shows that one in four kids quit school last year - 127,292 - which is far more than state educators estimated before they began using a new student-tracking system.

Yup, that's right, almost 25% never graduate. For some minorities it is even higher - 42% for African Americans. There is considerable argument over how the enrollment of illegal aliens have skewed this, too.

684 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:32:32pm

re: #681 Cartman

Well, bullly for you.

Thank you, I'll take any small compliment I can get.

685 ornery elephant  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:32:49pm

re: #668 Walter L. Newton

I'm starting to wonder if infidelia is a moby, trying to irk an ire against atheist?

Walter, I was with Infidelia in the Lizard Lounge quite a few nights and this behavior here has really saddened and shocked me...she's not a moby.

686 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:32:59pm

re: #658 Slumbering Behemoth


As a person without kids, I have no problem whatsoever with paying taxes for public schools.


The worst song ever written; &#9834 I believe that children are our future &#9834
If you bought a home in your early thirties (my guess at average) and lived in it to your death (say 77 average) in my neck of the woods that would cost you 282,000 dollars in that period of time in school taxes. For me, that's more than I bought the house for. It's like walking around with a pebble in your shoe. You tolerate it, at first. But there comes a time when you just have to rip that shoe off and yank that pebble out. You're probably young. Wait and see. I've seen seniors on my street site school taxes as the number one reason they want/need to sell their homes.

687 formercorpsman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:33:20pm

re: #327 Charles

I will admit, I have avoided these threads for the most part.

Some folks on here have managed to change my mind on some things, see their point of view on others, and question my own.

I will say, there are folks here who believe, and have a hair trigger for any inference they perceive as attacking their faith.

As well, there are folks here who don't believe in anything higher, and their disdain, and condescension for those who do is totally palpable.

I have stuck it out because I like freedom of speech, and hate political correctness. If you cherish this, well, then we have to deal with differing opinions.

Watching certain things unfold, especially how this Disco Institute is willing to accept funds, and get in bed with political islam gets my attention.

Seeing how a major publisher cowered by the threats a pseudo-philanthropic Saudi Sheik, because of a book, gets my attention.

I think for anyone who feels offended by the ID threads, as attacking their faith, really needs to worry about the future waiting in creation, as the result of throwing in with something that will only subjugate you in the end.

688 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:33:44pm

re: #676 kalvinb

No, an Atheist doesn't have to deal with them. Many are calmly able to accept not knowing. Others don't accept it, and with them it becomes a crusade.

I don't know, I can't know, so I will live here and now, create the purpose that I can, and live in hope that future generations might know.

689 Cartman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:33:58pm

re: #684 Naso Tang

Uh...I think I forgot the sarc tag. Oh, well...

690 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:34:12pm

re: #679 Charles

Open the door, get on the floor, everybody Walk the Dinosaur

691 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:34:24pm

re: #595 Cartman

Lot of anger there, eh? You might want to consider seeing a professional about that. It's rather disturbing.

Spot on! ♥Cartman♥

/Have some pity on the professionals!

692 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:34:44pm

re: #577 JeremyR

Sure you can. I've read plenty of the stuff denigrating evolution, and am of the opinion it is SWAG at best. Consider all the variables involved in the dna of the simplest creature, and imagine how that could happen by chance to begin with. For sexual critters, it gets even more mind boggling, because you have to have two, a male and a female evolve at the same time and in the same place.

As our world changes, why are we not seeing more radical evolution? Sure we see animals adapt, without that adaptability, they would have become extinct long ago, but that is not evolution to me. calling it microevolution is couching to make macro evolution palapable, and to me it is not.

I'm a mathmatician, and for me, the possibility is too infintesimal to give credence to. There is a greater probability that the next meteorite to hit earth will be the exact size shape and configuration as an H-1 hummer, and that it will hit in my back yard WITH a full tank of gas.

When that happens, I will give macro evolution a second look.

You've just demonstrated that you do not understand evolution at all. Everything you've said about evolution above is just completely, totally, WRONG. You have only read stuff denigrating evolution. Does it not ever occur to you that this stuff could be, just PERHAPS, inaccurate, since the theory of evolution has been around 150 years and the vast majority of scientists, particularly biologists, accept it? Don't you think perhaps you should read what the scientists and biologists REALLY say about evolution? "Finding Darwin's God" by cell biologist, eloquent evolution defender, and practicing Roman Catholic Ken Miller might be a good start.

I would not accept evolution (or macroevolution, anyway) if it was so obviously wrong as you think it is. Nor would the scientific community.

693 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:34:53pm

re: #685 ornery elephant

Walter, I was with Infidelia in the Lizard Lounge quite a few nights and this behavior here has really saddened and shocked me...she's not a moby.

Oh, Ok, thanks for the info, just an asshole.

694 hazzyday  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:34:54pm

Nothing can not give rise to something. Implies that there was always something.

695 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:35:01pm

JeremyB dinged my post down, but I'm simply stating facts.

696 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:35:39pm

re: #685 ornery elephant

Walter, I was with Infidelia in the Lizard Lounge quite a few nights and this behavior here has really saddened and shocked me...she's not a moby.

No, I think she's for real

[Link: f.webring.com...]

This is LGF, we fact check your ass everyone.

697 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:36:37pm

re: #689 Cartman

Uh...I think I forgot the sarc tag. Oh, well...


I was gonna say, wtf? I've seen all sorts of attacks coming from Nasal Twang. Now, it's Mr/Mrs Sweetness and Light? Bullshit.

698 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:36:42pm

Reminder everyone: If you liked this article, give it a ding up.

699 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:36:54pm

re: #133 Charles

Ah, I see 'Mathew1977' is back, dinging down my comment about the reader who emailed to support me.

I have but one ding to give to my hatred and bigotry, eh?

700 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:37:14pm

re: #689 Cartman

Uh...I think I forgot the sarc tag. Oh, well...

So did I. Even?

701 Kulhwch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:37:45pm

re: #230 Mathew1977

Call it what you will, I thought LGF was a place to contribute my thoughts.

Why are mine less legitimate than anyone else's?

Because they're masturbatory?

}:)     [And it isn't even a circle-jerk, it's one guy hiding in a closet!]

702 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:38:36pm

re: #697 EC Marm

I was gonna say, wtf? I've seen all sorts of attacks coming from Nasal Twang. Now, it's Mr/Mrs Sweetness and Light? Bullshit.

I don't role over for schoolyard bullies. Is that what you were referring to? wink wink.

703 JeremyR  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:39:24pm

re: #695 Charles

JeremyB dinged my post down, but I'm simply stating facts.

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but I disagreed with you making that comment which appeared to me to be an insult of his beliefs.

704 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:39:39pm

re: #696 Thanos

This is LGF, we fact check your ass everyone.

Uh, do you have a permit for that?

Maybe Stinky might help? ;)

705 lostlakehiker  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:39:40pm

One way to argue against a man is to put words in his mouth, then shoot down those words.

Buchanan writes:

Darwinism claims, for example, that matter evolved from non-matter

Well! Darwin made no claims whatsoever about the origin of matter. He made no definite claims about the origin of life, though he did venture some tentative guesses. His scientific claims were limited to a discussion of how the vast variety of obviously related species now found on the earth came about.

Darwinism has to do with life and evolution. It doesn't extend to a doctrine on the origin of the universe. Physics and astronomy have some information on that topic, but that's nothing to do with Darwin or DNA or anything related to evolution.

What's more, this one dirty sentence of Buchanan insinuates the proposition that evolution is a vague word, pertaining to anything that happens somehow or other but that doesn't make sense. If scientists used evolution as a description of how matter came to be, they would have to give details of how non-matter has traits that can be inherited, how non-matter has offspring, how the offspring of this non-matter can vary from the parent non-matter, and how eventually, by an accumulation of small changes, one might eventually get a descendant that would qualify as "matter". Unsurprisingly, scientists offer no such account of how matter came to be.

Buchanan makes his task easy by starting with a big lie, then demanding that his opponents provide unavailable facts supporting a position they themselves never took.

706 hazzyday  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:39:58pm

Pre ID threads I had heard of the DI and watched the Nova special on them and kinda then just never thought about them any more.

Post ... I realized they had hijacked the concept of ID and that young earthers exist in greater numbers than I had thought. I don't mind if schools that serve all people talk about all things in their proper place. I do kinda mind if one small group tries to stack everything in their favor. I am touchy about textbooks with the Zinn materials as a prime expample of manipulation gone bad. I am disappointed in Rush and Medved for jumping on this bandwagon. My rationalizing mind says they did it for money. Which disappoints me further.

707 kalvinb  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:40:33pm

"This fight is too important to waste time on crap like this."

First off, the Bible says that man was created from the dust of the earth after the animals were already created. So claiming the Bible supports the Evolutionary notion that man came from animals is false.

What the Bible does do is present the order in which things appeared in exactly the same order as Science has determined. One of the interesting things is that the Bible claims that light came first. Science recently argued the same thing. Even though to a primitive people light always comes from a source. It would be logical that the stars were created first, not the light. What other creation story has the light being created before the source? Other than Science circa the late 1900's and the Bible?

Now, aside from that, the other issue is that life can come from non-life. "Science" wants to claim that it's possible despite the laws of Science that proved long ago that maggots don't magically appear in dead things.

"Science" also wants to claim that everything came from a "Big Bang" despite the glaring Horizon problem.

"Science" wants to claim that organizing the building blocks of life is enough to create life. Ignoring the fact that dead cells have all the building blocks of life and yet are dead.

The reason there's a battle and not a discussion is because kids don't learn about the problems of where life came from and how it all began according to "science." They are taught it as though it's true and never given a chance to question it. And they're definitly not allowed to go down a "religious" path even though what they're being taught in the classroom is equally religious.

So we end up with a bunch of militant Atheists who stomp their feet and scream whenever someone points out the glaring holes in their little belief system. Just as religious people assume that the "holes" in their beliefs are just misunderstandings or will be understood sometime in the future, militant Atheists do the same.

They assume that Science will figure it out eventually and that it's somehow ignorant to think otherwise.

708 Cartman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:40:40pm

re: #697 EC Marm

I guess I have to remind myself that I now participate in the "kinder, gentler" LGF. I used to enjoy taking off the gloves occasionaly in here, back in the day. I must be gettin' old. ;)

709 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:40:55pm

re: #702 Naso Tang
Please don't wink in my direction. You're creeping me out. Take your 'wide stance' somewhere else.

710 kalvinb  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:42:16pm

""kalvinb" believes the earth is only 6,000 years old, and that people rode dinosaurs."

Wow. Didn't you just ban someone for spreading "lies" about Darwin and Mein Kampf.

Well, it is your web-site. Lying about someone personally is A-OK.

711 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:42:45pm

'kalvinb' is obviously a very militant creationist -- another word for this attitude is 'totalitarian' -- who wants to force his beliefs on the rest of society.

712 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:44:10pm

re: #707 kalvinb


Kalvin, Debating 19th century evolutionary theory and cosmology is a bit behind the times. We are now in the 21st century, please check your calendar. Many more things have been discovered, most would definitely make you uncomfortable, so I clearly understand why you don't read them.

713 theparson  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:44:50pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

That's absurd. I have stated several times that I am a "creationist" and have never felt attacked or alienated. Perhaps it is your demeaning tone that puts people off, not your beliefs.
Furthermore, you are simply wrong about religion of any sort being taught in public school. You may be happy when the teacher is of your brand but when that teacher is of another brand then what? And if you are going to teach Christianity how can you exclude every other religion? Parents who want their children to learn religion in school have the option of private school. I sent both of my boys through public school and neither of them came out scarred or hating God.
Quit trying to make a martyr of yourself.

714 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:44:58pm

re: #553 MandyManners

In Dearborn, Michigan, or in northern Virginia, which schools do you think will be the ultimate recipients of those vouchers?

What about schools around the nation which teach anti-science shit? Racist propaganda?

Sorry, I had to go away for a bit.

Yes, Mandy, your worst fears will happen. Lousy stuff will be taught. But not to all.

Our goal, then, it to convince (not coerce) people into choosing the sorts of schools that will benefit their children. Think of it as Darwinian -- the fittest will survive!

715 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:45:09pm

re: #707 kalvinb

So it's settled then. Might as well turn off that PC since it was designed from Science unless you got the theory of transistor operation in the Bible huh?

Let's see the next assertion will be that I am confused right?

716 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:45:21pm

re: #710 kalvinb

""kalvinb" believes the earth is only 6,000 years old, and that people rode dinosaurs."

Wow. Didn't you just ban someone for spreading "lies" about Darwin and Mein Kampf.

Well, it is your web-site. Lying about someone personally is A-OK.

So how old DO you think the earth is?

717 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:45:30pm

Wow. I could feel my brain cells dying as I read this.

re: #707 kalvinb

"This fight is too important to waste time on crap like this."

First off, the Bible says that man was created from the dust of the earth after the animals were already created. So claiming the Bible supports the Evolutionary notion that man came from animals is false.

What the Bible does do is present the order in which things appeared in exactly the same order as Science has determined. One of the interesting things is that the Bible claims that light came first. Science recently argued the same thing. Even though to a primitive people light always comes from a source. It would be logical that the stars were created first, not the light. What other creation story has the light being created before the source? Other than Science circa the late 1900's and the Bible?

Now, aside from that, the other issue is that life can come from non-life. "Science" wants to claim that it's possible despite the laws of Science that proved long ago that maggots don't magically appear in dead things.

"Science" also wants to claim that everything came from a "Big Bang" despite the glaring Horizon problem.

"Science" wants to claim that organizing the building blocks of life is enough to create life. Ignoring the fact that dead cells have all the building blocks of life and yet are dead.

The reason there's a battle and not a discussion is because kids don't learn about the problems of where life came from and how it all began according to "science." They are taught it as though it's true and never given a chance to question it. And they're definitly not allowed to go down a "religious" path even though what they're being taught in the classroom is equally religious.

So we end up with a bunch of militant Atheists who stomp their feet and scream whenever someone points out the glaring holes in their little belief system. Just as religious people assume that the "holes" in their beliefs are just misunderstandings or will be understood sometime in the future, militant Atheists do the same.

They assume that Science will figure it out eventually and that it's somehow ignorant to think otherwise.

718 hazzyday  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:45:57pm

re: #707 kalvinb

What does this mean? man was created from the dust of the earth

Could dust be the original billions of years old dust?

719 formercorpsman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:46:13pm

re: #509 infidelia

infidelia, you just proved his point.

Go back over, read your post.

The divide is not what you accept, or not accept as part of your reality.

You showed nothing but contempt upon the premise of what he might believe.

Do you think there was no condescension in your words?

720 ornery elephant  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:47:57pm

I have a question. When one is referred to as a "Creationist" does that automatically mean that they are a supporter of ID?

I consider myself a Creationist in that I believe in the Biblical account of G_d creating the heavens and the earth. That doesn't mean I'm down at the middle school sliding ID pamphlets under the door , does it?

I've seen some "evolution" here of verbage to the point that the term "Creationist" appears to be very derogatory or implying that is a person hip deep in this effort of ID. Am I missing something?

721 hazzyday  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:48:43pm

re: #707 kalvinb

What if stars are not the original source of light? But the source is more distant?

722 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:49:40pm

re: #707 kalvinb

"Science" also wants to claim that everything came from a "Big Bang" despite the glaring Horizon problem.

Who has a problem with the Horizon Problem anymore?

723 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:49:43pm

re: #707 kalvinb

Actually my Bible (translated from the Latin Vulgate, printed by the John Murphy Company in 1914, with its Old Testament first published by the English College at Douay AD 1609) says in Genesis 2:7 that God created man from the slime of the earth, and not from the dust. A minor translation error? or maybe not.

724 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:50:28pm

Buchanan is showing up on the wrong side of all the key issues of the day.

He really is a malignant SOB, isn't he?

725 hazzyday  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:50:35pm

re: #720 ornery elephant

I have a question. When one is referred to as a "Creationist" does that automatically mean that they are a supporter of ID?

I consider myself a Creationist in that I believe in the Biblical account of G_d creating the heavens and the earth. That doesn't mean I'm down at the middle school sliding ID pamphlets under the door , does it?

I've seen some "evolution" here of verbage to the point that the term "Creationist" appears to be very derogatory or implying that is a person hip deep in this effort of ID. Am I missing something?

To me an ID person is probably a creationist. A creationist can be a lot of things besides an ID person. I think the terminology is evolving and many people initially place themselves in the ID camp just because of the meaning of the two words. I did. Then I looked at their activites more and realized that that was not me.

726 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:53:02pm

re: #725 hazzyday

I think it's important to keep drawing a distinction between the politicians at the Discovery Institute and the people they're trying to use to gain power.

727 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:53:57pm

re: #724 Maine's Michael

He really is a malignant SOB, isn't he?

You actually are too kind. POS does it for me...and I am being kind.

728 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:55:12pm

re: #721 hazzyday

What if stars are not the original source of light? But the source is more distant?

In biblical terms I do not think "light", as in "let there be light", means that in a literal sense.

729 formercorpsman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:56:07pm

re: #725 hazzyday

I think I have come to know this moniker of a different stripe.

To me, early on, ID was creationism.

Now, it is a political movement, funded, with mal-content.

I still think there is something bigger.

730 gman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:56:41pm

re: #723 Mich-again

Actually my Bible (translated from the Latin Vulgate, printed by the John Murphy Company in 1914, with its Old Testament first published by the English College at Douay AD 1609) says in Genesis 2:7 that God created man from the slime of the earth, and not from the dust. A minor translation error? or maybe not.

Good point. Kalvinb keeps saying "the bible" as if there is only one bible.

731 ornery elephant  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:57:12pm

re: #725 hazzyday

thanks hazzy

732 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:57:42pm

re: #720 ornery elephant

I have a question. When one is referred to as a "Creationist" does that automatically mean that they are a supporter of ID?

I consider myself a Creationist in that I believe in the Biblical account of G_d creating the heavens and the earth. That doesn't mean I'm down at the middle school sliding ID pamphlets under the door , does it?

I've seen some "evolution" here of verbage to the point that the term "Creationist" appears to be very derogatory or implying that is a person hip deep in this effort of ID. Am I missing something?

It all boils down, as to whether someone wants to make it part of the school curriculum for science classes. The two may be linked with some people, but not a total lock step item for everyone.

Creationism/Intelligent Design is not science, is not based in science, does not follow or utilize the scientific principles and practice, and should not under any circumstances be included in what is taught formally in science classes in schools.

733 claire  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:58:05pm

re: #692 Tigger2005

What Jeremy said:

For sexual critters, it gets even more mind boggling, because you have to have two, a male and a female evolve at the same time and in the same place.

Oh, for goddssakes - totally DOES NOT GET CONCEPT.

Jeremy, have ya ever heard of inherited traits?

You know if all I did was read idiotic creationist rags (and was a scientific illiterate) I could see how people would think Evolution is full of shit.

Jeremy, for the love of God, READ SOMETHING ELSE!

734 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:58:57pm

re: #663 Charles

Perhaps it's a moby of another persuasion?

735 kalvinb  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:59:01pm

"So how old DO you think the earth is?"

I had already told you in another topic that I don't know. All I know is that the dating methods used by "scientists" don't work. There is not a single dating method that consistantly reads "0" for new material that is below the assumed threshold of accuracy.

Modern evolutionary theory depends greatly on the dating methods. And they don't work. The assumption of the "prestine" sample has been shown false every time.

They've dated new materials to be billions of years older than the alledged age of the earth.

I also specifically stated that 6000 years is inaccurate. I even went into a huge explaination about where that comes from and why it's wrong.

"says in Genesis 2:7 that God created man from the slime of the earth, and not from the dust"

Either way, the animals were already created. Evolution has slime prior to animals and humans with humans branching off of animals.

736 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 8:59:17pm

If the USA wants to remain a world leader in the 21st century we need to make sure our children's science classes are unencumbered by religious influence. Which is not to say we need to abandon religion.

737 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:00:02pm

re: #723 Mich-again

Actually my Bible (translated from the Latin Vulgate, printed by the John Murphy Company in 1914, with its Old Testament first published by the English College at Douay AD 1609) says in Genesis 2:7 that God created man from the slime of the earth, and not from the dust. A minor translation error? or maybe not.

Biologically speaking, slime is organic material.

738 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:00:51pm

re: #737 Naso Tang

Biologically speaking, slime is organic material.

Thats my point.

739 Maximu§  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:01:07pm

A husband is on his death bed, and he says to his wife, "Can you give me one last wish?"

She says, "Anything you want."

He says, "After I die....will you marry Larry?"

She says, "Of course, but I thought you hated Larry." With his last breath, he says, "I do."

real funny huh?.../slinks away

740 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:01:11pm

re: #738 Mich-again

Thats my point.

Just making sure.....

741 freedomrules19  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:03:05pm

Couldn't this same position be used to say that christianity (or any myth based belief religion) is destined for the same "compost pile of discarded ideas"?

How ironic that he can't see the nature of his argument.

742 kalvinb  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:03:24pm

"Creationism/Intelligent Design is not science, is not based in science, does not follow or utilize the scientific principles and practice, and should not under any circumstances be included in what is taught formally in science classes in schools."

I agree with that. The reason there's a problem is because the idea that inorganic matter can spontaniously become living matter is taught in the science classroom as though it's Science.

ID wants to get into the classroom so it can stop the non-science from being taught as science.

And no, the Horizon problem hasn't been solved. Although you wouldn't know that from a Science class.

743 Kulhwch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:03:37pm

re: #293 Karridine

When I found the way to myself, I lost the way to the liquor store.

ROTATING TITLE NOMINEE!

}:)     [Wow, man, that's way existential!]

744 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:04:12pm

re: #742 kalvinb

How old is the earth? Come on, take a guess.

745 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:05:48pm

re: #742 kalvinb


And no, the Horizon problem hasn't been solved. Although you wouldn't know that from a Science class.

That's because science classes teach science, not negation of science.

What part of inflation do you not accept? Do you not think God could do something that's so hard for you to understand?

746 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:05:52pm

re: #673 Naso Tang

In the case of atheists, there is little defense forthcoming when they are called, for example, parasites of peoples morality, which I find offensive. On the other hand I don't think I've ever told anyone they were an asshole, shit, or should go piss up a rope; but plenty of good Christians have said so.

I am not an atheist, but when I see an idiot spout that kind of nonsense here, I speak up.

747 kalvinb  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:06:16pm

"How ironic that he can't see the nature of his argument."

The point is that Evolution and Creationism both have faith based components.

The problem is that kids don't learn about the problems of evolution in a classroom. They're taught it as though there are no holes and it's a closed case.

748 realwest  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:06:22pm

re: #726 jaunte
Hey juante - if you're still around, can you drop me an e-mail?
Thanks my friend.

749 kalvinb  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:06:42pm

"How old is the earth? Come on, take a guess."

Older than 6000 years. Younger than 4.3 billion.

750 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:08:22pm

re: #749 kalvinb

"How old is the earth? Come on, take a guess."

Older than 6000 years. Younger than 4.3 billion.

Really? Younger than 4.3 billion? How much younger?

Is it 1 million years old?

10,000?

Come on. Give me a ballpark figure at least.

751 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:08:29pm

re: #742 kalvinb

Evolution IS science by the very definition, no matter all the spin you try to apply. But then you have a very obvious agenda you want to push so will be willfully obtuse and obfuscating of anything that does not promote that agenda.

752 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:08:40pm

re: #748 realwest

Hi realwest, I'm here, but my home email is having some problems. Can I send to you tomorrow from the office? How are the teeth doing?

753 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:10:46pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

Sal: People here have no problem with anyone believing as they wish, although they find it sad that some feel the need to believe in things that are directly contradicted by everests of empirical evidence (young-earth creationists, people who deny common ancestors between humans and great apes). But, for the umpteenth time, sectarian religious dogmas should not be taught in public high school science classes. BTW: They shouldn't be taught in philosophy classes, either; they aren't philosophy; they're theology.

Your alienation is your own problem, but most of the Lizards who are appalled at the prospect of the Disco Dewdes worming their Trojan Horse ID camel nose into the public high school tent are themselves theists.

754 hazzyday  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:11:07pm

re: #747 kalvinb

"How ironic that he can't see the nature of his argument."

The point is that Evolution and Creationism both have faith based components.

The problem is that kids don't learn about the problems of evolution in a classroom. They're taught it as though there are no holes and it's a closed case.

There were few subjects in k-12 in my upbrining that even addressed problems in any subject matter. the only thing close I can rememer is maybe a pol sci class and an early geography class that both had extra credit after hour classwork on the Vietnam war. There we did look at the values of the subject a little more. But I think that was the teachers personal motive and not a school system apporach to education.

755 mossley  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:11:35pm

re: #577 JeremyR


I'm a mathmatician, and for me, the possibility is too infintesimal to give credence to. There is a greater probability that the next meteorite to hit earth will be the exact size shape and configuration as an H-1 hummer, and that it will hit in my back yard WITH a full tank of gas.


Sorry, I'm a mathematician as well, and your statement makes no sense. Mathematics is filled with the infinitesimal. Hell, real life is. Quantum mechanics is full of statistically impossible events, but tunneling is one of the leading problems in new computer circuit design.

Any knowledge of chaos theory shows that the even the tiniest change in the initial state of a chaotic system yields wildly different outcomes. It's hard to imagine anything more chaotic than an ecosystem being impacted by the environment.

756 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:11:41pm

re: #749 kalvinb

Younger than 4.3 billion.

Excuse my ignorance but I'm not familiar with that number. Is that a begat figure?

757 theparson  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:13:58pm

As a "creationist" I state emphatically that creationism is faith and not science. It is not provable... that's why it's called faith.
Scientists should pursue science and, of course, evolution is science. As they prove and disprove theories they hone their science.
If your faith is so fragile that it is shaken by science I suggest you spend some time renewing your faith.

Good night all.

758 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:14:24pm

re: #195 Mathew1977

I've read every single post and thought I brought up a legitimate question.

Then perhaps thinking isn't your thing; parsing, grasping, grokking and comprehending certainly don't seem to be.

759 Naso Tang  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:14:59pm

re: #756 Naso Tang

Excuse my ignorance but I'm not familiar with that number. Is that a begat figure?

It's getting late. I thought the question was the age of the universe, not the earth. Somehow the former seems more important to me.

I think it's time to call it a night.

nite.

760 realwest  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:16:55pm

re: #752 jaunte IF possible, even worse than BEFORE I went to the damned dentist! Gonna have to have one of two teeth extracted, the dentist and I disagree over which one* and I can't get an "evaluation" from the Oral Surgeon I like a lot until Tuesday. Rats.
Nah, you don't have to write me from work, it wasn't important anyway.
Hope you're doing well my friend.

*and now I need a new dentist, cause HE started talking about politics and I let him have it (he was dissing our troops based on what a friend of his had said to him after being a civilian employee of the military for 20 years and I was having none of it); then the dentist says Iraq was the wrong war to begin with and I agreed and said we shoulda smacked Iran around like a pinata. He said no, he meant Pakistan! I said, oh yeah, right, like Obama - lets start a war with a Muslim nation which is the ONLY one we know of that has nuclear weapons and missles to deliver 'em. Then I told him about Iran's activities since 1979 and the converstation ended abruptly cause I just left (after I paid my bill).
This hasn't been what I'd call a "steller" day! LOL!

761 hazzyday  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:16:59pm

re: #728 Naso Tang

In biblical terms I do not think "light", as in "let there be light", means that in a literal sense.

I'll be bad and suggest that we don't really know what light and stars are. I do think the saying "let there be light" is based on geometrical thinking. And that it was a tool to help pre scientific person understand the universe.

762 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:19:34pm

re: #760 realwest

Well I hope the healing goes quickly, and best of luck finding a dentist with better political sense!

763 hazzyday  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:22:12pm

re: #726 jaunte

I think it's important to keep drawing a distinction between the politicians at the Discovery Institute and the people they're trying to use to gain power.

Yes I forgot to say that I mean the Discovery Institute when I say ID. I am still disappointed in Medved. It's like seeing your hero quarterback fumble away the ball just when he might score the winning 4th quarter touchdown.

764 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:24:03pm

re: #742 kalvinb

ID wants to get into the classroom so it can stop the non-science from being taught as science.

That's the best joke I've hear all day. Ha!

765 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:24:07pm

re: #761 hazzyday
Excuse me, if you go into any electronic repair shop or high school science lab you'll find a chart of the electromagnetic spectrum. It divides up light, radio, microwave,etc.. into sections. Through spectrography(sp) we know what the stars are made of and can even...gasp...tell what the main components are in some planets atmospheres light years away.

766 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:24:18pm

I decided to go back and point out all your misconceptions about evolution. You can thank me anytime!

re: #577 JeremyR

Sure you can. I've read plenty of the stuff denigrating evolution, and am of the opinion it is SWAG at best. Consider all the variables involved in the dna of the simplest creature, and imagine how that could happen by chance to begin with.

Cells and DNA did not evolve all at once, but had much simpler predecessors. And evolution does not proceed solely by chance. Natural selection selects for those chance mutations that increase an organism's ability to survive and reproduce. The mutation is, therefore, spread through the population.

A scientist worked up a computer program that put up a string of random letters. Then he added an instruction that, when a letter happened to be in the same place as it appears in a certain well-known phrase, it would be retained. In just a few seconds, he had TOBEORNOTTOBE. And the program could reproduce entire Shakespeare plays in just a week or so. This is similar to how evolution by natural selection works. The mutations are random. the selection is not.

For sexual critters, it gets even more mind boggling, because you have to have two, a male and a female evolve at the same time and in the same place.

No, you don't. Evolution consists of relatively small, beneficial or neutral changes (via mutation) in individual members of a population being spread throughout the population. It does not propose "hopeful monsters." The entire POPULATION changes gradually over time. If a segment of the population splits off from the main population, it may be subjected to different environmental pressures, or have different environmental niches available to it, so it might evolve in a different direction from the "parent" population.

As our world changes, why are we not seeing more radical evolution?

Because evolution just does not work that fast. Even when our world changed much more slowly, millions of species became extinct because they did not evolve "quickly enough" to adapt to relatively sudden changes in the atmosphere, in food sources, temperature, and so on. Actually what is usually observed in the fossil record is that lots of species go extinct, and just a few, that were lucky enough to have some quality that allowed them to survive the change (being warm blooded and able to burrow is certainly an advantage if the temperature suddenly drops drastically, for example). With so many species going extinct, lots of environmental niches open up, and over time the surviving species evolve and diversify to fill those niches.

Sure we see animals adapt, without that adaptability, they would have become extinct long ago, but that is not evolution to me. calling it microevolution is couching to make macro evolution palapable, and to me it is not.

But in science it doesn't really matter what your opinion is. It doesn't matter how things "seem" to you. What matters is the evidence. The fossil evidence supports macroevolution. No mechanism has been discovered that prevents adaptive mutations from accumulating in a species until you have a population that's unable to reproduce with the parent population (the definition of macroevolution).

(cont)

767 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:24:41pm

re: #763 hazzyday

It's a tricky, emotional subject for a lot of people; that's why I think the DI people are especially nasty manipulators.

768 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:25:18pm

re: #230 Mathew1977

Call it what you will, I thought LGF was a place to contribute my thoughts.

Why are mine less legitimate than anyone else's?

Because, so far, they have all been either patently baseless, or based upon transparent falsehoods. Furthermore, this fact has been interminably explained to you here, every time you try to recycle the same retreads.

769 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:25:29pm

I guess 'kalvinb' doesn't want to be pinned down on that one. Much easier to spew a bunch of deceptive nonsense about the fallibility of scientific dating methods.

770 swamprat  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:26:38pm

Maple sugar time.....on thread

a little sappy, but I don't mind

771 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:27:51pm

re: #769 Charles

I guess 'kalvinb' doesn't want to be pinned down on that one. Much easier to spew a bunch of deceptive nonsense about the fallibility of scientific dating methods.

Sounds a lot like a certain Dem politico. Why have a actual position when all your followers can see theirs in you.

772 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:29:54pm

re: #760 realwest

FWIW, last time I had a root canal, the endodontist recommended stacking tylenol with ibuprofen for the tooth pain. It worked! However, there are probably many contraindications for such procedure. I found some "Go Tabs" form of chewable tylenol, and interleaved one of those every few hours with an ibuprofen capsule. The combination was very successful in reducing the pain. Alone, neither analgesic seemed to quite do it.

773 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:31:19pm

re: #769 Charles

I guess 'kalvinb' doesn't want to be pinned down on that one. Much easier to spew a bunch of deceptive nonsense about the fallibility of scientific dating methods.

His talking points sound very familiar to the ICR points, as in this video/audio.

774 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:37:28pm

re: #773 freetoken

His talking points sound very familiar to the ICR points, as in this video/audio.

You're right. They're the same talking points. kalvinb has been busted in a previous thread trying to float DI talking points without mentioning the DI connection of the author.

775 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:38:12pm

re: #774 Charles
Whoops! Heh!

776 Kulhwch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:39:09pm

re: #415 infidelia

Do most bodegas here in the States carry Mexican Coca-Cola?

Recently while visiting Santa Cruz, got to try a drink called Manzanita (or something similar) -- Apple Cola.

Ych.

}:)     [And it tasted exactly llike you thought it would.]

777 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:39:14pm
I'm a mathmatician, and for me, the possibility is too infintesimal to give credence to. There is a greater probability that the next meteorite to hit earth will be the exact size shape and configuration as an H-1 hummer, and that it will hit in my back yard WITH a full tank of gas.

When that happens, I will give macro evolution a second look.

The problem is, you're beginning your probability calculations with a completely incorrect premise. Let me repeat--you know nothing about evolution. That's just a fact. The stuff you have read "denigrating" evolution was filled with lies and half-truths and misinformation. You have been misled, and you should be angry.

But, I have a feeling you began your "study" of evolution not wanting to consider the possibility that it might be correct--perhaps you felt it threatened your religious beliefs--so you deliberately chose books attacking a strawman version of it, rather than books that explain the actual theory.

Now, I could be wrong. But your description of evolution clearly reveals that you do not know what the theory actually says and do not understand it at all. I'm not trying to be a jerk here--again, just stating a fact. Evolutionary theory does not claim the things you say it does. If it did, if it really was so ridiculously, so obviously, blatantly, stupidly wrong, it would not still be around after 150 years and the vast majority of scientists would not accept it. Really, they are not all that dumb, and, no disrespect intended, but even being a mathemetician and all, you are not so smart as to have figured out from reading a few anti-evolution books what a crock it all is while all these biologists who work with the theory every day remain a bunch of oblivious, drooling idiots.

I just want to point this out one more time...your understanding of evolution is wrong. It's as if you read a book on United States history penned by a rabid Marxist liberal environmentalist, OK? Please, read a book by someone who really knows something about the subject. I again suggest "Finding Darwin's God."

778 claire  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:42:38pm

re: #747 kalvinb

You think people take evolution on faith because there isn't any evidence. And you think there isn't any evidence because your brain is filled with crap from reading creationist literature masterworks of spin and obsfucation. Some of the most logically inconsistent, circular arguments from authority, lame-O weak pieces of "scholarship" comes out of these places. Stuff like "Look! Running water can make a gully through sand. Therefore the Grand Canyon was created in 30 minutes! Which agrees with the Bible and since the Bible never gets anything wrong, it proves it's true!" And everybody Halallujas! like something real just happened. Like an actual real GOTCHA has been found that invalidates evolution. You know, there hasn't been one yet, but you guys keep trying. These websites are really unbelievably poor repositories of information. I would be embarrassed to be associated with them. You are being lied to and you either don't know it or don't care. But I just wanted to tell you that yes, people can tell and very easily.

779 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:45:02pm

re: #778 claire

You are being lied to and you either don't know it or don't care.

Or he's one of the liars himself.

780 Ma Sands  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:48:05pm

re: #430 buzzsawmonkey

Hope you meander back in here, buzz, & catch this..... :)

mama is currently on a pretty long trek up to her cabin in the no-internet nor-even-much-less-modern-conveniences U.P. wilderness..... :)

I miss her too.....

Still keepin' track of all you guys....got heart tugs for so many of you, as beloveds, 'cludin' Charles..... :)

781 claire  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:49:23pm

re: #777 Tigger2005

I agree, "Finding Darwin's God" is a great place to start.

782 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:52:38pm

re: #779 Charles

Or he's one of the liars himself.

He does seem to have exceptionally intimate knowledge of the breadth and width of the DI talking points that the average person would not have.

783 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:55:26pm

re: #774 Charles

Before the DI, ICR was one of the major sources for scientific sounding "lingo" for the YEC. The DI have surpassed ICR on sophistication of debating technique.

784 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 9:55:59pm

re: #781 claire

I agree, "Finding Darwin's God" is a great place to start.

One of my favorites is "The Beak of the Finch" ... I was just enthralled by that book. Read it in one night. It is lyrical.

785 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:00:21pm

re: #454 hermeneutics

Perhaps I read him wrongly, but I believe he is asking for a privatization of public schools.

In my wee opinion, the debate, in essence, is this: Who decides what history, philosophy, biology, etc. is taught in school?.
Who has the power to dictate the content of education?

I'm convinced that the only solution to this debate is to allow every family to choose whatever content-based education they want for their children, thus cutting the government out of the decision-making process. In an earlier age when a general consensus prevailed, it was possible for the government to decide for many of us without offending large segments of the population. That consensus shattered. There will never be consensus again.

Perhaps, then privatization makes sense and vouchers could end this debate.

Balkanization will not work any better here than it has in Europe.

786 gman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:00:31pm

Charles,

I couldn't get the file to play on the Berlinski link. Not sure what happened.
A ram file was downloaded and then nothing.

787 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:02:21pm

re: #786 gman

Charles,

I couldn't get the file to play on the Berlinski link. Not sure what happened.
A ram file was downloaded and then nothing.

You need to have the Real Audio player installed.

788 gman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:07:55pm

re: #787 Charles

You need to have the Real Audio player installed.

cool, I got VLC player to open it. thanks

789 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:09:40pm

re: #457 ornery elephant

And perhaps since you can understand how sacred your reality is, how important and precious your family is...perhaps a child...that when you degrade G_d in my presence or my belief in Him you've insulted the most precious thing in my life.

This is precisely the reason that Muslims give for rioting and murder, and for blaming their actions on their blasphemous victims. In a society that genuinely values freedom of speech, no one can be allowed to assert a binding right not to be offended by the remarks of others, for it binds those other people's throats, and amputates their tongues. If people are so insecure concerning their own faiths that they cannot tolerate even hearing the criticisms of others concerning them, then they need to be tending their OWN gardens, and perhaps making some hard personal religious choices, rather than trying to mow down everyone else's verbal rows.

790 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:15:01pm

re: #458 JeremyR

Goddess, I too have problems with the way some behave on these threads. I know exactly how you feel. Most of the time I simply avoid them so as to keep from getting attacked by some of the worse ones. For me, the ideas put forth as microevolution are proof of intelligent design. The creator made species that could cope with changes in their enviroment and in many cases, thrive.
I agree with Mandy though that we need to keep ID out of hte class rooms because it is a toe hold for Islamic fuckedupmentalism.
Instead of teaching evolution, teach nothing. Explain genetics, explain biology that we can all agree on, byut leave the ID and evolution stuff for college where the kids can choose what they want to get fed.

This makes no sense at all. Genetics and biology cannot be properly understood in the absence of the evolutionary referential frame. The answer to the intrusions of sectarian religious dogmas into public high school science classes is NOT to stop teaching science there, as if the two are in any manner, way, shape or form comparable. And make no mistake about it; evolutionary theory is among the most sound and valid of all scientific theories, supported by oceansful of empirical evidence, while ID has NO empirical evidential support whatsoever.

791 Mike Dugas  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:16:56pm

I can't believe how far Pat Buchanan has fallen. Anti-Semite statements, lending credence to neo-nazis through association, and now we find him dabbling in intelligent design. For someone who is such an ardent Traditionalist Catholic (old school Latin Mass etc) and who himself has screamed of anti-catholic bias in the media, I find it pitiful that he treats the Jews in the same ways that he cried foul about with Catholics. And read his quotes below....

"..what they are asking is that we accept it all on faith. And the response they are getting in the classroom and public forum is: “Prove it,” and, “Where is your evidence?”

"Darwinism is headed for the compost pile of discarded ideas because it cannot back up its claims. It must be taken on faith. It contains dogmas men may believe, but cannot stand the burden of proof, the acid of attack or the demands of science. Where science says, “No miracles allowed,” Darwinism asks us to believe in miracles."

He is saying that evolution and Darwinism should be tossed and are wrong because they can't be proven, they require faith to believe and that basically Darwinism is asking us to believe in miracles.

Gee Mr. Buchanan you mean "require faith in the unproven" like belief in God Pat? What miracles does Darwinism ask us to have faith in Pat, anything like the story of the "Loaves and Fishes" or maybe the "water into wine"? I dunno, the parting of the Red Sea was always a tough one for me but my faith in God allows me to get by it without too much worry.
Funny you should toss a belief or idea out because it requiresfaith. I'd be interested to know if this
current thought pattern of yours has changed your relationship with God, and if so does that leave your intelligent designers origins out in the cosmos? Just curious.....

792 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:19:39pm

re: #463 buzzsawmonkey

re: #450 esch

The 'Golden Rule' is not unique to Judeo/Christianity.

No?

Tell me all about where it appears in Egyptian papyrii, on cuneiform tablets, or in Linear B.

Do.

Sal: Check out the Hammurabic Code of ancient Egypt, which far pre-dated its Biblical appearance. The statement therein that 'I have not treated others as I would not wish to be treated by them' is another way of stating the same thing, in negative rather than positive terms. And the religions of the East had their own versions, too.

793 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:27:06pm

re: #792 Salamantis

re: #450 esch

The 'Golden Rule' is not unique to Judeo/Christianity.

No?

Tell me all about where it appears in Egyptian papyrii, on cuneiform tablets, or in Linear B.

Do.

Sal: Check out the Hammurabic Code of ancient Egypt, which far pre-dated its Biblical appearance. The statement therein that 'I have not treated others as I would not wish to be treated by them' is another way of stating the same thing, in negative rather than positive terms. And the religions of the East had their own versions, too.

Ummmmm, the Code of Hammurabi was Babylonian, not Egyptian. Still doesn't invalidate the rest of your point, though. :)

794 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:29:25pm

re: #473 hermeneutics

Yes, Karradine, but he has a point -- The government can/should only reflect the will of the people, not determine it. And without consensus, it resorts to coercion.

Public schools are coercive to many, many people. Perhaps most. So why not do away with them? Give every family vouchers for each child to be spent at the school of their choice. Most parents care deeply for their children. They'd choose what they honestly feel is best.

This is not only wrongheaded, it is unconstitutional, and for good reason. The Founders and Framers clearly foresaw the dangers of 'tyrannies of the majority' and the hazards of bigotrous majorities voting for representatives that would pass laws that would oppress minorities, the prevention of which is the entire rationale for much of the Bill of Rights, and its oft-repeated phrase "Congress shall make no law". If the will of the people were to be granted sacred cachet regardless of its content, there would still be school and public segregation, poll tests and Jim Crow here in the Deep South, because the majority of the whites would have voted to perpetuate it and most of the blacks would not have been able to vote to change it.

795 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:38:00pm

re: #747 kalvinb

"How ironic that he can't see the nature of his argument."

The point is that Evolution and Creationism both have faith based components.

The problem is that kids don't learn about the problems of evolution in a classroom. They're taught it as though there are no holes and it's a closed case.

Actually this is correct. To most people, a belief in either one is mainly faith based. Most people who believe in "evolution" have really only taken sides in something they know little about. This is not much different than one who believes in creationism. Most of us are fans in this topic, not experts. And ironically, it has very little to do with our daily lives. I don't think my life has become any richer by understanding evolution.

I do put my "faith" in science. Science has a better track record. And I understand enough of the system of science to want my chips to be there on this issue. What is often lost in these discussions is that Science is Science's own worst critic. For every theory, sub-theory, conjecture there is a scientist out there trying to disprove it. Natural selection can be seen best in the scientific process of "peer review." Science is a put up or shut up world.

And lets be very honest, ID and Creationism attack evolution as a monolithic dogma because they have not been able to stand toe-to-toe in the world of scientific peer review. There is just so much evidence that evolution is happening and virtually none that it isn't. And every year more is coming out.

Maybe a better question would be "why is religion so threatened by evolution." Another topic I guess.

796 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:39:05pm

re: #505 palarson

Okay, one more time.

If the probability of at least one of a theory's component parts (irreducible complexity) is infinitesimal then the theory's probability of correctness on the whole is equally infinitesimal. Q.E.D.

Next topic please.

The tired old Behe canard of IC has been conclusively refuted by Ken Miller (in a video linked by Charles), on talkorigins (hint: it ain't irreduceable), and many other places and by many other people. And you should know this. And now you do. So you can't post this oft-refuted fallacy any more as if you don't.

797 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:47:32pm

re: #791 Mike DugasGee Mr. Buchanan you mean "require faith in the unproven" like belief in God Pat? What miracles does Darwinism ask us to have faith in Pat, anything like the story of the "Loaves and Fishes" or maybe the "water into wine"? I dunno, the parting of the Red Sea was always a tough one for me but my faith in God allows me to get by it without too much worry.
Funny you should toss a belief or idea out because it requiresfaith. I'd be interested to know if this
current thought pattern of yours has changed your relationship with God, and if so does that leave your intelligent designers origins out in the cosmos? Just curious.....

Excellent point. He ridicules the whole idea of faith without evidence when it suits him.

798 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:48:41pm

re: #515 reine.de.tout

Idiot! It isn't that you say you don't believe in God, it's the way you talk about God, as the big, invisible whatever in the sky, and other phrases you used on a thread the other night that were way out of line and were, in fact, degrading the beliefs of others.

You advised Goddess to remember the golden rule - so you think others should apply it to you, but don't have to apply to them?

So no one can mention Cthulhu, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn in here any more, either? Sounds kinda like a speech code to me. And I really, REALLY despise speech codes, and what they mean, and what they entail.

People of ANY faith do NOT have the right to not have their faiths verbally ridiculed by others in ANY society that TRULY values freedom of speech. Freedom of speech is PRECISELY and ESPECIALLY for that speech which MOST offends others. In a true freedom of speech society, NO special censorship dispensations can be granted to ANY religion that are denied to any others. In fact, no special censorship dispensations can be granted to any religion AT ALL.

799 hershel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:58:37pm

"I can't believe how far Pat Buchanan has fallen."

Buchanan hasn't fallen a bit. He has *always* been like this. With all due respect, Mike, I can't believe that everyone does not see what a disgraceful, hypocritical, bigoted scumbag he has been throughout his vapid lifelong career as a media jockey and political groupie.

800 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 10:59:31pm

re: #527 paradox42

Its crap like this that gives us atheists bad name. Just because you don't believe doesn't give you the right to disrespect those who do.

In a free society, everyone has the right to disrespect anyone else's position, and to have their own position disrespected in return - but reasons for such opinions are expected to be forthcoming. Whether the reasons for this disrespect are seen by others to be good ones or bad ones, these others make their own choices based upon the understandings at which they arrive. It ain't whitelight fluffybunny kumbaya cuddly and nice, but it is within the heated crucible of such hurly-burly freedom that the marketplace of ideas evolves.

When the right to criticize is strangled, freedom dies.

801 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:02:21pm

re: #536 Mathew1977

I haven't seen this done by the Darwinists on this forum either.

Then you haven't been reading my posts.

802 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:07:36pm

re: #795 Dainn

I don't think my life has become any richer by understanding evolution.

I do. Every bit of knowledge I gain, whether it's immediately useful to me or not, enriches me. I have a very difficult time understanding people who prefer to remain ignorant--who remain WILLFULLY ignorant. Sometimes the knowledge I gain frightens or saddens me, or forces me to reevaluate what I thought I knew or believed. But to me, that's part of what living and being human is all about.

When someone says, "I'm just a simple person, I can't understand this stuff and I don't need to know it," or "Everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten," I can't help but recoil a little. I'm not that smart and many things in science I have only a rudimentary understanding of (particularly when it comes to physics and math) but I am always trying to learn a little more. I can't imagine being incurious, rejecting opportunities to learn. I know that there are probably a lot of "simple folks" who are much more successful in life and relationships than I've been so far, but I don't know why some people think they can't be both--voracious learners AND people who understand the simple rules of right and successful living.

803 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:10:22pm

re: #540 Reno911

You read me exactly.

This entire debate is pointless. I'm not criticizing Charles for bringing it up. I just think we are missing the forest for the trees. Neither side will be convinced by the other, so the debate devolves (ironic huh?) into fratricide.

Each side is Free to believe as they see fit. As I understand it, one side is based on faith and the other is based on theory.

The evolutionary theory side does not have to believe, as they can know, based upon voluminious evidence; the ID side has to believe, since evidence is one thing they ain't got. And, for the leventy-twelfth time, the scientific meaning of the word 'theory' is as stong and solid as things get short of certainty, which science does not, on principle, provide.

IMHO, The solution is to get government out of education. I know that does not go over well with crypto-libs and teachers, but there it is.

Our forbearer's (sp) came to this country because of religious persecution. We see the same thing happening in the lizard community. Lizards leaving because of (perceived?) persecution.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

The answer is to keep religion out of public high school science class. No doctor worth his/her salt kills a patient to cure a wart; (s)he excises the wart. The Disco Dewdes and the Islamofundies with whom they've joined hands would be just as overjoyed with the dissolution of public secular education in the US as they would be with the sectarian religious dogmas of their choice taught in public high school science class. I am not prepared to grant such twisted nimrods either victory.

804 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:10:26pm

re: #798 Salamantis

So no one can mention Cthulhu, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn in here any more, either? [...]

Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
(In his house at R'lyeh dead Cthulhu waits dreaming.)

Anyone who puts down the invisible pink unicorn will be visited by Nyarlathotep. You have been warned.

805 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:19:00pm

re: #802 Tigger2005

I do. Every bit of knowledge I gain, whether it's immediately useful to me or not, enriches me. I have a very difficult time understanding people who prefer to remain ignorant--who remain WILLFULLY ignorant.

I didn't say I or other believers are ignorant, just that we haven't done the testing to empirically test our beliefs. Are you an evolutionary biologist who is contributing to the data on evolution? If not (like me) have been getting your info second hand. That requires some level of faith in your sources.

Show me someone who is 100% positive, and I'll show you someone without all the facts. Those who are most sure are usually the most ignorant, because they have stopped asking good questions.

806 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:29:12pm

re: #577 JeremyR

Sure you can. I've read plenty of the stuff denigrating evolution, and am of the opinion it is SWAG at best. Consider all the variables involved in the dna of the simplest creature, and imagine how that could happen by chance to begin with. For sexual critters, it gets even more mind boggling, because you have to have two, a male and a female evolve at the same time and in the same place.

I won't call them creatures, but organisms, as the very word 'creature' subliminally prejudices the point.
The simplest replicating organisms are VERY simple, and have already advances quite a ways from much simpler self-similar budding chemical compounds (see Charles' OOL post). As for sexual organisms, there is an interim phase, where organisms are not sexually dimorphic, yet can exchange genetic material; the sexes evolved from there.

As our world changes, why are we not seeing more radical evolution? Sure we see animals adapt, without that adaptability, they would have become extinct long ago, but that is not evolution to me. calling it microevolution is couching to make macro evolution palapable, and to me it is not.

Allow sufficient microevolutionary differences to accumulate, and a macroevolutionary aggregate is reached.

I'm a mathmatician, and for me, the possibility is too infintesimal to give credence to. There is a greater probability that the next meteorite to hit earth will be the exact size shape and configuration as an H-1 hummer, and that it will hit in my back yard WITH a full tank of gas.

When that happens, I will give macro evolution a second look.

Could you provide statistical references for that?

You are a perfect example of what we'll get if people don't learn about evolutionary theory in school. You obviously didn't in college, nor would your field require you to. I guess you slept through it in high school, if you went to public high school.

807 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:36:13pm

re: #611 JeremyR

I'm not going to waste my time trying to change your mind. I didn't come here for that. I simply stated that in MY OPINION THE CHANCES JUST ARE NOT THERE.

And that's all that it is; an untestable, evidentially unsupported, a-statistical and unscientific belief, just like ID.

808 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 11:57:07pm

re: #676 kalvinb

Evolution, in the strictest sense, doesn't deal with the problem of something coming from nothing or life coming from non-life.

Those two problems come before Evolution.

The Atheist, however, does have to deal with those issues.

Not under the umbrella of Evolution, but under the umbrella of their belief system as a whole.

Other than that technicallity, he's spot on. To be an Atheist requires a lot of faith. A lot of what Evolution teaches also relies on faith.

What, precisely, of evolutionary theory relies on faith? Point it out, please, so that the scientific community can excise it from their massively empirical-evidence-supported model.

"Atheist" and "Evolutionist" tend to get melded into being the same thing for that reason. The only reason there is a distinction is because of the argument that maybe God created the first spark of life and then went away for billions of years.

They actually have nothing to do with each other; one is a philosophical stance (It can be a theological stance, but it isn't one necessarily, as the absence of belief allows for, but does not mandate, a belief in absence), and the other is a scientific theory that has stood the test of a century and a half of investigation and experiment.

809 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 12:14:15am

Charles,

You may be going about this whole Townhall.com thing a bit inefficiently. Perhaps it would be more effective to have people email the companies and politicians who have banner ads at Townhall, and let them know that so long as Townhall continues to publish all of Pat Buchanan's screeds, with no editorial responsibility whatsoever, they are advertising on a hate speech site, and that may not be good for their image. Also, try emailing individual Townhall columnists (particularly Jewish ones) and ask them to reconsider being published at Townhall while rank antisemitism is routinely published there.

810 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 12:23:43am

re: #707 kalvinb

"This fight is too important to waste time on crap like this."

First off, the Bible says that man was created from the dust of the earth after the animals were already created. So claiming the Bible supports the Evolutionary notion that man came from animals is false.

I would never assert that the Genesis account supports such; I would simply state that, if taken literally, the Genesis account is empirically wrong, as the identical artifactual retroviral DNA in humans and apes abundantly shows.

What the Bible does do is present the order in which things appeared in exactly the same order as Science has determined. One of the interesting things is that the Bible claims that light came first. Science recently argued the same thing. Even though to a primitive people light always comes from a source. It would be logical that the stars were created first, not the light. What other creation story has the light being created before the source? Other than Science circa the late 1900's and the Bible?

Now, aside from that, the other issue is that life can come from non-life. "Science" wants to claim that it's possible despite the laws of Science that proved long ago that maggots don't magically appear in dead things.

Well, it's a bit different, since the dead things that the ancients were talking about in the doctrine of spontaneous generation, like horsehairs for worms and sunken logs for crocodiles, were themselves once alive. These were definitely superstitions of the age, but your attempt here resembles tarring astronomy with the brush of astrology, or chemistry with the brush of alchemy.

"Science" also wants to claim that everything came from a "Big Bang" despite the glaring Horizon problem.

Umm...what about the radiation echo from the Big Bang that permeates all space, and the red-shift of which allows us to date the Big bang to 13.7 billion years ago?

"Science" wants to claim that organizing the building blocks of life is enough to create life. Ignoring the fact that dead cells have all the building blocks of life and yet are dead.

But they're not in the proper configuration to permit replication. When a multicellular organism dies, oxygen (or, with plants, co2) and nutrients stop flowing to its member cells, and they undergo apoptosis. But the asinine scare quotes throughout your vapid screed are noted with disdain.

The reason there's a battle and not a discussion is because kids don't learn about the problems of where life came from and how it all began according to "science." They are taught it as though it's true and never given a chance to question it. And they're definitly not allowed to go down a "religious" path even though what they're being taught in the classroom is equally religious.

Once again, origin of life is a different field from evolution. And it is undoubtedly true that evolution (change in life over time) takes place. What is being taught is not religious, but scientific; there is empirical evidence for what is being taught, something that religious assertions do not have.

So we end up with a bunch of militant Atheists who stomp their feet and scream whenever someone points out the glaring holes in their little belief system. Just as religious people assume that the "holes" in their beliefs are just misunderstandings or will be understood sometime in the future, militant Atheists do the same.

They assume that Science will figure it out eventually and that it's somehow ignorant to think otherwise.

You have yet to point out all these glaring holes to which you repeatedly refer. Could you please furnish a few as-yet-unrefuted examples?

811 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 12:33:13am

re: #735 kalvinb

"So how old DO you think the earth is?"

I had already told you in another topic that I don't know. All I know is that the dating methods used by "scientists" don't work. There is not a single dating method that consistantly reads "0" for new material that is below the assumed threshold of accuracy.

Modern evolutionary theory depends greatly on the dating methods. And they don't work. The assumption of the "prestine" sample has been shown false every time.

They've dated new materials to be billions of years older than the alledged age of the earth.

I also specifically stated that 6000 years is inaccurate. I even went into a huge explaination about where that comes from and why it's wrong.

"says in Genesis 2:7 that God created man from the slime of the earth, and not from the dust"

Either way, the animals were already created. Evolution has slime prior to animals and humans with humans branching off of animals.

There are many different radiometric dating methods, and they can have lower as well as upper register threshholds. But when several different ones test the selfsame sample very closely, it is extrememly likely that they are converging on what is close to the actual sample age. And there are many different types that can be used to cross-verify:

Types of radiometric dating
argon-argon (Ar-Ar)
fission track dating
helium (He-He)
iodine-xenon (I-Xe)
lanthanum-barium (La-Ba)
lead-lead (Pb-Pb)
lutetium-hafnium (Lu-Hf)
neon-neon (Ne-Ne)
optically stimulated luminescence dating
potassium-argon (K-Ar)
radiocarbon dating
rhenium-osmium (Re-Os)
rubidium-strontium (Rb-Sr)
samarium-neodymium (Sm-Nd)
uranium-lead (U-Pb)
uranium-lead-helium (U-Pb-He)
uranium-thorium (U-Th)
uranium-uranium (U-U)

[edit] See also
Age of the Earth
Exponential decay
Half-life
Isochron dating
Isotope geochemistry
Isotopic signature
Radioactive decay
Radioactivity
sensitive high resolution ion microprobe (SHRIMP)

812 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 12:38:44am

re: #742 kalvinb

"Creationism/Intelligent Design is not science, is not based in science, does not follow or utilize the scientific principles and practice, and should not under any circumstances be included in what is taught formally in science classes in schools."

I agree with that. The reason there's a problem is because the idea that inorganic matter can spontaniously become living matter is taught in the science classroom as though it's Science.

Once again, this is not part of evolutionary theory, but of oprigin of life studies. Please reference Charles' posted paper on the subject.

ID wants to get into the classroom so it can stop the non-science from being taught as science.

Now, this is turnspeak of the most blatant order, considering that ID is itself not science, but sectarian religious dogma.

And no, the Horizon problem hasn't been solved. Although you wouldn't know that from a Science class.

Actually, it is solved by inflationary theory. Google it.

813 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 12:39:21am

re: #809 Lizard by the Bay

Charles,

You may be going about this whole Townhall.com thing a bit inefficiently. Perhaps it would be more effective to have people email the companies and politicians who have banner ads at Townhall, and let them know that so long as Townhall continues to publish all of Pat Buchanan's screeds, with no editorial responsibility whatsoever, they are advertising on a hate speech site, and that may not be good for their image. Also, try emailing individual Townhall columnists (particularly Jewish ones) and ask them to reconsider being published at Townhall while rank antisemitism is routinely published there.

I don't think it would be in Charles' best interest to start such a campaign, nor advocate such. Blog wars are unseemly and can damage credibility.

However, I don't see a problem with a non-invested, ordinary citizen doing so. Like if someone named 'Gator near the Lake' were to say to someone named 'Sleeping Giant': "Hey, maybe we should do this"; I think that would be ok.

814 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 12:44:09am

re: #747 kalvinb

"How ironic that he can't see the nature of his argument."

The point is that Evolution and Creationism both have faith based components.

The problem is that kids don't learn about the problems of evolution in a classroom. They're taught it as though there are no holes and it's a closed case.

NO scientific theory is ever considered to be closed, in principle, but I really would like you to provide examples of all these gaping holes to which you interminably refer.

And, unlike religious assertions, which themselves are faith based in their totality, scientific theories such as evolutionary theory refuse to include faith based componenets. If empirical evidence supporting a prospective component of a scientific theory is not forthcoming, it is disqualified as a component of that theory.

815 yma o hyd  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 1:49:31am

Late to this thread, as usual, sigh, so if this ahs been said before, forgive me!

For Pat b to state that Darwin talks about evolution being of'something from nothing' is, to paraphrase the words of that great physicist, Wolfgang Pauli, 'not even wrong' ...

(See [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

816 Annar  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 4:07:45am

re: #46 freetoken

Along possibly related lines...

Spain: Peace and security to dominate faith summit

Spain's first step in the rebirth of Andalusia will be to remove that ugly church built in the Cordoba mosque. After that the rest will be downhill.

817 Annar  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 5:12:40am

re: #756 Naso Tang

Excuse my ignorance but I'm not familiar with that number. Is that a begat figure?

Something like Sol begat Mercury, Venus, Earth,... and, of course, all this 'begetting' ran its course less than 10,000 years ago! It would take years of deprogramming to save these poor people.

818 Annar  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 5:20:31am

re: #728 Naso Tang

"In the beginning, God said the four-dimensional divergence of an
antisymmetric, second rank tensor equals zero, and there was Light,
and it was good."

(An old joke originated at MIT, I think. Hint: Maxwell's equations.)

819 Irish Rose  Thu, Jul 17, 2008 5:21:48am

#798 Salamantis 7/16/08 10:48:41 pm

People of ANY faith do NOT have the right to not have their faiths verbally r