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Pat Buchanan: 'Intelligent Design' Advocate

Wed, Jul 16, 2008 at 5:48:15 pm PDT

When he isn’t writing antisemitic articles blaming high gas prices on Israel and AIPAC, or revisionist history defending Hitler’s invasion of Poland, or appearing on neo-Nazi radio shows, Pat Buchanan likes to attack the theory of evolution: Darwin’s Pyrrhic Victory by Pat Buchanan.

Darwinism claims, for example, that matter evolved from non-matter — i.e., something from nothing — that life evolved from non-life; that, through natural selection, rudimentary forms evolved into more complex forms; and that men are descended from animals or apes.

Now, all of this is unproven theory. And as the Darwinists have never been able to create matter out of non-matter or life out of non-life, or extract from the fossil record the “missing links” between species, what they are asking is that we accept it all on faith. And the response they are getting in the classroom and public forum is: “Prove it,” and, “Where is your evidence?”

And while Darwinism suggests our physical universe and its operations happened by chance and accident, intelligent design seems to comport more with what men can observe and reason to. ...

Darwinism is headed for the compost pile of discarded ideas because it cannot back up its claims. It must be taken on faith. It contains dogmas men may believe, but cannot stand the burden of proof, the acid of attack or the demands of science.

Where science says, “No miracles allowed,” Darwinism asks us to believe in miracles.

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960 comments

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1 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:50:14pm

Go Pat!

Not.

2 Shug  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:50:27pm

The words Intelligent and Pat Buchanan don't belong in the same sentence

3 smokin' hamster  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:50:27pm

Go away, Pat.

4 tripletdad  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:51:02pm

ugh...

5 Shug  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:51:20pm

A fossil commenting on fossils

6 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:52:09pm

Is there nothing Buchanan doesn't rail on about with blinkered pig-ignorance?

7 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:52:25pm

re: #5 Shug

A fossil commenting on fossils

I believe Pat is a coprolite...

8 mossley  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:52:33pm

I bet you PB couldn't accurately describe evolutionary theory if his life depended on it.

9 Spiny Norman  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:52:54pm

re: #7 coquimbojoe

I believe Pat is a coprolite...


LOL!

10 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:53:07pm

He has become a caricature.

11 leslein  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:53:30pm

"I, at any rate, am convinced that He does not throw dice."

12 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:07pm

When Pat fell out of the Idiot Tree, he hit every branch on the way down.

13 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:12pm

re: #9 Spiny Norman

Hiya Spiny, glad I could make you smile.

14 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:19pm

Never interrupt someone when they are making a mistake......so you just keep talking Pat.

15 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:28pm

Darwinism claims, for example, that matter evolved from non-matter — i.e., something from nothing


Source please, Pat.

16 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:54:29pm

re: #11 leslein
He might stack the deck.

17 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:55:18pm

re: #15 BignJames
I don't remember that part in origin of the species.

18 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:55:46pm

re: #7 coquimbojoe

dino shit?

19 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:56:13pm

Pat needs to transition from paleocon to fossilocon.

20 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:56:44pm
Have these fellows forgotten that John Scopes, the teacher in that 1925 "Monkey Trial," lost in court, and was convicted of violating Tennessee law against the teaching of evolution and fined $100?

I'm not surprised buchanan would resort to revisionist history on Scopes just like he does with WWII. The Scopes trial was a set up from the beginning and the conviction overturned. And then there's the little thing of similar laws getting ruled unconstitutional.

21 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:56:59pm
Darwinism claims, for example, that matter evolved from non-matter — i.e., something from nothing

Matter = physics
Evolution = biology

Pat has Darwinism confused with the Big Bang theory. Sure glad he is not on our side.

22 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:57:07pm

re: #18 yochanan

dino shit?

Zactly.

23 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:58:46pm

I was hoping for a new thread. And it came! Oh, wait!

24 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:59:21pm

Someone should tell Buchanan that Darwin wasn't a Joooooooooo.

25 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 5:59:37pm

re: #23 VegasRick


'tis an evolving site.

26 doubleplusundead  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:00:16pm

re: #7 coquimbojoe

I believe Pat is a coprolite...

Coprophage, actually. Close though.

27 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:00:35pm

Years ago, Pat Buchanan was considered to be one of the most upright, conservative Catholics in D.C. He ran the Public Liaison Office in Reagan's second term, I believe, and had a reputation of being a straight-shooter who was both honest and non-political.

I'm not sure what happened. His antisemitic rhetoric was shocking. Being a fellow-traveler with skin-heads and white supremacists was also shocking.

Power may corrupt, but that's not what happened to Buchanan. What did happen -- the forces that altered his beliefs -- is unknown, at least to me.

28 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:00:45pm

This article is just weak- pat should stick to the topics he actually knows something about- like anti-Semitism.

29 mean Gene  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:00:57pm

There's a scene in the movie, The Abyss, where ''Hippy'' (the guy with the pet rat and all of the conspiracy theories tries to back up the woman who had seen ''something'' down there.
After a few minutes of hearing his wild rants she says to him, "Hippy, just stay off my side.''
I don't understand the difference between what I believe (some first cause Creation, then a whole lot of adaptation, geographic isolation and such*) and ID but I do know I wouldn't want Pat on my side.

*See.
I don't even care all that much because it is no big deal to me.
No children at home and irrelevant to me being close to my Creator.

30 NemoParticularis  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:01:01pm

I'm delighted to see that Pat is as vociferous as ever and that TownHall still carries his columns. I think it's important that his particular brand of lunacy be aired out in the open so that thinking people can benefit from from it. Mr. Buchanan's sad spiral downward from conservative standardbearer to raving paleocon anti-semite is an object lesson for all. He is more to be pitied than laughed at.

31 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:02:06pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis

I'm delighted to see that Pat is as vociferous as ever and that TownHall still carries his columns. I think it's important that his particular brand of lunacy be aired out in the open so that thinking people can benefit from from it. Mr. Buchanan's sad spiral downward from conservative standardbearer to raving paleocon anti-semite is an object lesson for all. He is more to be pitied than laughed at.

Agreed. And he is pitiful.

32 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:02:45pm

o.t.
the effect of there being a state of Israel is that jews don't feel we have to kush'n touckas anymore. hopefully some will get used to jews being equal.

33 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:00pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis


You can pity him if you like...I'm gonna laugh.

34 HelloDare  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:11pm
Where science says, “No miracles allowed,” Darwinism asks us to believe in miracles.

The miracle is that Buchanan has any credibility left.

35 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:12pm

re: #7 coquimbojoe

I believe Pat is a coprolite...

He' still steaming, and stinkin'

36 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:14pm

Just received from a reader in Louisiana:

Just wanted to send a thanks for representing conservatives who are not creationists, or at least conservatives who agree that creationism should be kept in the church and out of the schools.

There may well be a time and a place for teaching ID, but it isn't in our classrooms funded by our taxes.

Thanks for showing that not all conservatives are painted with the same brush.

37 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:19pm

He' got the DI catechism down verbatim.

38 akak  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:03:29pm

Have MKH or Michelle Malkin commented on this yet?

39 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:20pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis

I disagree. He's trotted out as an actual conservative and that gives people the wrong idea. The left uses him to paint all conservatives as whacks, and republicans give this guy more validation because he's supposed to be one of us. He should be shunned by decent, thinking people everywhere and left in his own little corner to preach to the bigoted haters that are his real base.

40 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:25pm

From a Buchanan interview in 1999.

Q: Would you abolish the federal Department of Education? A: I would abolish those segments that deal with primary and secondary education. There is a federal role in higher education. We need to be first in science. That’s where I’d put some money. And [some funds] for scholarships; that’s a federal responsibility. But primary and secondary education, that belongs to mom, and pop, and the teacher, and the principal and the deputy principal.
Source: Interview on MSNBC’s “Equal Time” Nov 2, 1999

How utterly ignorant. We need to be first in science, so lets discredit evolution and teach Intelligent Design in science classes. As for neglecting primary and secondary education and focusing resources only in higher education, good luck with that. You can't ignore science for 12 years of schooling and think that students will somehow catch up in College.

41 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:44pm

I'm sorry for the great apes, that they happen to share an ancestor with such a morally vacuous rabble rouser as Buchanan. Cartoon, Thomas Nast:
[Link: www.britannica.com...]

42 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:47pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis

I'm delighted to see that Pat is as vociferous as ever and that TownHall still carries his columns. I think it's important that his particular brand of lunacy be aired out in the open so that thinking people can benefit from from it. Mr. Buchanan's sad spiral downward from conservative standardbearer to raving paleocon anti-semite is an object lesson for all. He is more to be pitied than laughed at.

Pat Buchanan was exposed years ago. No one who has been paying attention to his career has been under any delusions for a LONG time. William F. Buckley wrote a whole book about Buchanan and Joe Sobran.

There's no benefit whatsoever to have this creepy racist contributing to the public debate on any issues.

43 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:04:59pm
Darwinism is headed for the compost pile of discarded ideas because it cannot back up its claims.


150 years and counting. Bite me.

44 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:05:13pm

re: #36 Charles

Give this guy an account.

45 The Other Les  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:06:03pm

re: #1 Spiny Norman

Go Pat!

Not.

Go away Pat!

46 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:06:09pm

Along possibly related lines...

Spain: Peace and security to dominate faith summit

(Saudi officials chose Spain as the site for an inter-faith summit due to its symbolism as a place where Muslims, Christians and Jews lived peacefully for over 500 years. )

Madrid, 16 July (AKI) - World peace, security and the environment are among the main topics discussed at an inter-faith religious dialogue summit taking place in Spain on Wednesday.

The three-day conference is called The World Conference on Dialogue and is taking place in the Spanish capital, Madrid. It was attended by Saudi King Abdullah Bin-Abd-al-Aziz al-Saud and Spain's King Juan Carlos.

Among the topics dominating the agenda was Muslim-Christian-Jewish dialogue, as well as the need for diverse communities to live in peace. [...]

The conference is organised by the Muslim World League on the initiative of King Abdullah, whose country hosts Islam's two holiest shrines in Mecca and Medina.
[...]
Although representatives of the international Jewish community are at the conference, no Israeli is included in the list of guests listed on the official website of the conference. [...]

And from a related article: Spain: Saudi king to open inter-faith dialogue in Madrid

The Secretary General of the World Muslim League, Abdallah Bin Abdul Muhsin Al Turki said that the meeting is a "global invite" to dialogue "launched from Mecca".

47 Bobblehead  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:06:36pm

I always liked the word pyrrhic. Not so much anymore.

48 HelloDare  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:06:56pm

Sounds like something Homo ergaster would say.

49 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:02pm
" intelligent design seems to comport more with what men can observe and reason to...."

Horseshit.

Buchanan is a non-intelletual boob. Why this clown is afforded any respectability in any circles is beyond me. Now he's pontificating about science.

50 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:15pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

150 years and counting. Bite me.

Where do I buy tickets?
/

51 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:29pm

Buchnan is the kind of Christian that Kilgore & Yochanon were talking about on the last thread. Guys I beg you not to believe that this is Christianity. I am a very casual Christian , so it's not like I really have a dog in the fight. It is just what I have observed to be trfue

52 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:07:41pm

re: #37 Thanos

He' got the DI catechism down verbatim.

That's exactly what it is -- every point in this article is straight out of Discovery Institute propaganda.

53 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:18pm

re: #50 jcm

Admission to the British Museum of Natural History is free!

54 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:41pm

Proof of evolution... The Missing Link

55 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:44pm

re: #36 Charles

Just received from a reader in Louisiana:

Hear, hear!

56 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:45pm
57 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:08:50pm

re: #30 NemoParticularis

It's useful as light exposes evil. It shows how corrupted in thought and vision Buchanan is. Combined with who he chooses to associate with and the causes he writes about, and it's clear that he does the conservatives no favors by his presence.

58 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:09:05pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Admission to the British Museum of Natural History is free!

But seeing you get bit.........PRICELESS!

59 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:09:06pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

Oooh! Somebody called you nihilistic on the last thread....

60 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:09:12pm

re: #46 freetoken

Spain: Saudi king to open inter-faith dialogue in Madrid

In Madrid, because we can't have those Christians and Jews soiling holy Saudi Arabia.

61 stuiec  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:24pm
or extract from the fossil record the “missing links” between species

What Darwin could not foresee -- and what idiots like Buchanan either do not or refuse to understand -- is that many of the "missing links" in the fossil record are nevertheless evident in the genetic record. DNA (and mitochondrial RNA) carries a history of the species, including many traces of previous stages of evolution.

62 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:32pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

Arrgh! Accidental down-ding on aisle 39. Will someone please correct my mistake?

63 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:47pm

re: #43 Killgore Trout

KT,

You still looking for a house?

64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:49pm

I am a Christian. I love Pat Buchanan.

I am not required to like him though.

65 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:10:58pm

I don't think Buchanan knows what pyrrhic means. He might not have read the Dover trial decision, or maybe he doesn't understand the concept of legal precedent.

66 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:16pm

re: #60 Opinionated

It was so nice of the Saudi king to host that interfaith dialogue. In Spain.

Because he wouldn't allow the infidel to come into his country and visit (as if they'd be welcome or want to come and see what you've done with the place with our money).

67 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:19pm
68 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:23pm

re: #62 Slumbering Behemoth

Arrgh! Accidental down-ding on aisle 39. Will someone please correct my mistake?


Yeah, but it'll cost ya.

69 coquimbojoe  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:25pm

re: #56 buzzsawmonkey

Somehow I don't think Buchanan is the Pat in "Pat the Bunny."

Do you know why David Duke watched to movie 'Deep Throat' 20 times?

*

*

*

*

*

*

*

Wait for it

*

*

So he could get it down pat.....

70 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:30pm

As if I needed yet another reason to consider Buchanan an absolute faux-intellectual ass.

71 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:11:51pm

re: #59 coquimbojoe

Oooh! Somebody called you nihilistic on the last thread....

We all know he's far worse....
A luthier.
/ ;-P

72 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:12:01pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


I'm a sinner...I don't love the sob.

73 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:12:47pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

that is the difference I AM NOT REQUIRED TO LOVE MY ENIMIES.

74 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:08pm

re: #72 BignJames

heh

75 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:26pm

Question: Aside from Buddhism, are there any mainstream religions that are flexible enough to embrace scientific discovery without it compromising their doctrines on God and the origins of the universe?

I'm not talking about religions that merely refuse to confront the contradictions revealed by science,

76 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:27pm

re: #73 yochanan

that is the difference I AM NOT REQUIRED TO LOVE MY ENIMIES.

But you love the White Sox. Yeah baby!

77 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:40pm

re: #67 buzzsawmonkey

re: #60 Opinionated

This is the conference which was discussed on NPR this morning, where NPR commentator John Hockenberry referred to Spain as "formerly Muslim land."

I hope he didn't give Condi Rice any ideas.

78 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:13:48pm

re: #69 coquimbojoe


damn you i wasted some good chimay ale on that ROFLMAO FUNNY.

79 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:14:36pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am a Christian. I love Pat Buchanan.

I am not required to like him though.

I'm a Jew. I despise the POS.

80 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:15:02pm

re: #76 opnion

LIKE THE PALE HOSE YEAH LOVE WELL THAT IS A STRETCH.

81 pingjockey  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:15:07pm

I went to Sunday school, church and when it comes to asshats like Buchanan and terrorist scum I am definetly Old testament. None of this love your enemies stuff, sorry.

82 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:15:25pm

What is the dre: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Being Jewish, and NOT required to love my enemies, I'd like to ask if there is there a point at which "love thy enemy" no longer applies? And if so, hasn't Buchanan reached that point long ago?

83 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:15:28pm

SPELL CHECK SURE HELPS WHEN YOU ARE DOING CHIMAY ALE

84 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:02pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am a Christian. I love Pat Buchanan.

I am not required to like him though.

But you're a vegetarian. Isn't Pat meat?

85 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:28pm

re: #80 yochanan

LIKE THE PALE HOSE YEAH LOVE WELL THAT IS A STRETCH.

You my friend are my brother in Soxitude.
I am surounded by Cubishness. I need you to get my back.

86 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:35pm

Charles is doing conservatives a great favor by allowing us to publicly declare that we find Buchanan's views offensive and backwards. I want it on record that this wacko does not speak for me, and I would vote him off the island if I could.

Patrick, get help!

87 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:47pm

re: #82 paradox42

I can love my friends being a normal human i can't love my enimies.

f''k um

88 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:53pm

re: #18 yochanan

dino shit?

"yo" -

After eating his "Shlump" - DINO - might just have "POOPED" that. Yabba-Dabba-Doo!

-S-

89 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:16:53pm
Now, all of this is unproven theory. And as the Darwinists have never been able to create matter out of non-matter or life out of non-life, or extract from the fossil record the “missing links” between species, what they are asking is that we accept it all on faith. And the response they are getting in the classroom and public forum is: “Prove it,” and, “Where is your evidence?”

Gaah! I'm so completely weary of the whole hackneyed "Evolution is just a theory, so the ID theory is just as viable!" argumentative crock. Sorry ID folks, but trying to promote ID by attempting to poke holes in evolutionary theory doesn't prove ID correct by default.

90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:15pm

re: #84 Alouette

But you're a vegetarian. Isn't Pat meat?

Just who do you think I am? David Duke?

91 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:19pm

re: #63 jcm

KT,

You still looking for a house?

Those homes were great! Was it you that suggested the book, Back to Basics? If so, thanks. I got it from Amazon and have marked up every page. If not, ignore this.

92 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:38pm

If Aristotle were around today, he's slap old Pat silly.
Hard.

93 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:44pm

conseratives are not a echo chamber like the liberal elite.

94 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:17:55pm

re: #65 jaunte

I don't think Buchanan knows what pyrrhic means. He might not have read the Dover trial decision, or maybe he doesn't understand the concept of legal precedent.

I think buchanan doesn't understand a lot of things- such as evolution, OOL, the scientific method, the Constitution, why bigotry is wrong, etc.

95 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:18:26pm

re: #86 DistantThunder

Charles is doing conservatives a great favor by allowing us to publicly declare that we find Buchanan's views offensive and backwards. I want it on record that this wacko does not speak for me, and I would vote him off the island if I could.

Patrick, get help!

Don't vote him off, you want someone fat and slow around when the cannibals show up.

96 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:18:43pm

Betcha Pat ain't gonna make that failed leap of logic that Darwin caused the Holocaust.

It likely wouldn't fit in with well with the rest of his revisionist history lessons.

97 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:19:19pm

pat PUKEANAN IS LOWER THAN A SNAKE a snake crawls on its own belly PAT PUKEANAN ISN'T PICKY

98 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:19:27pm

re: #83 yochanan

SPELL CHECK SURE HELPS WHEN YOU ARE DOING CHIMAY ALE

"yo" -

Belgian Ale - Tastes Very Good - AND - Same effect as "Ghetto Beer" at 4x the price. L'chaim!

-S-

99 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:19:38pm

re: #89 StinkHammer

Gaah! I'm so completely weary of the whole hackneyed "Evolution is just a theory, so the ID theory is just as viable!" argumentative crock. Sorry ID folks, but trying to promote ID by attempting to poke holes in evolutionary theory doesn't prove ID correct by default.


Here is the thing. Evolution is demostrable. Did Darwin have every detail correct ? Of course not. That does not debunk evolution.

100 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:19:46pm

re: #94 Sharmuta

I don't understand how he ever became a 'pundit.' He just seems like some guy ranting at the end of the bar.

101 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:20:17pm

re: #95 jcm

Don't vote him off, you want someone fat and slow around when the cannibals show up.

He's the kind of slime that expect the cannibals to eat him last. Traitor.

102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:20:19pm

Has Pat simply found a new source of funding?

103 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:21:05pm

re: #102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Has Pat simply found a new source of funding?

Bingo.......follow the stench of Saudi money, what do you bet?

104 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:21:42pm

re: #62 Slumbering Behemoth

I would if I hadn't already dinged it up.

105 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:21:51pm

Pat is another version of the "tear it all down so the we can have a chance" school of polemic.

Racist scum, troofers, Birchers, the whole gamut of alienated whites whom Pat will lead to the promise land once things a so fouled up that we will beg him and his ilk for salvation (so he thinks).

It would not surprise me if he was rooting for an Obama victory just to satisfy the "two birds with one stone" fantasy he is probably holding.

If Nixon's paranoia was a fire it wouldn't surprise me if Pat was tossing in the lighter fluid.

106 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:22:02pm

re: #97 yochanan

pat PUKEANAN IS LOWER THAN A SNAKE a snake crawls on its own belly PAT PUKEANAN ISN'T PICKY

Buchanan was always an Arabist. Now it is clear that he is an anti Semite. You wonder, at least I do, how did he get that way?

107 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:22:32pm

Saudi money=formerly our money because our oil and gas are held hostage by Democrats in congress and their liberal minions.

108 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:03pm

re: #103 DistantThunder

Bingo.......follow the stench of Saudi money, what do you bet?

Buchanan doesn't need to be paid by third parties. Hatred of people and modernity is its own reward for him.

109 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:06pm

re: #98 Dr. Shalit

AND AT 9% BY VOLUME
PLUS I DID SOME QUBEC STUFF TOO
I ASK FORGIVENESS FOR DISREGARDING THE IRON FIST RULE
I KNOW ME BAD.

110 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:11pm

Here is pat, doing increasingly stupid and flamboyantly extreme things to break through his dwindling public profile. Like a little kids shouting "Mommy watch" as he rides a bike with no hands and crashes.

It would be sad, if I didn't want to post the video of the crash on youtube. I guess the 20 people who actually listen to this guy are cheering. Oh, and the other 19 who still watch the McLaughling Group on PBS.

Where is William F Buckley Jr. when we need him?

111 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:22pm

I think on this evolution versus ID argument, we just need to prove Darwin right and just out breed the idiots. Anyone game!

112 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:36pm

re: #107 DistantThunder

Saudi money=formerly our money because our oil and gas are held hostage by Democrats in congress and their liberal minions.

Drill, damn it! Do alternate sources too. Do every thing.

113 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:45pm

re: #89 StinkHammer

Gaah! I'm so completely weary of the whole hackneyed "Evolution is just a theory, so the ID theory is just as viable!" argumentative crock. Sorry ID folks, but trying to promote ID by attempting to poke holes in evolutionary theory [with easily debunkable conjecture -SB]doesn't prove ID correct by default.

Yeah, but that's all they got. I'd like one of them to answer these questions:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

For bonus points, use the following criteria:

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

114 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:23:50pm

re: #100 jaunte

I don't understand how he ever became a 'pundit.' He just seems like some guy ranting at the end of the bar.

Working in a President's administration give you cred.

115 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:08pm

re: #27 hermeneutics

Years ago, Pat Buchanan was considered to be one of the most upright, conservative Catholics in D.C. He ran the Public Liaison Office in Reagan's second term, I believe, and had a reputation of being a straight-shooter who was both honest and non-political.

I'm not sure what happened. His antisemitic rhetoric was shocking. Being a fellow-traveler with skin-heads and white supremacists was also shocking.

Power may corrupt, but that's not what happened to Buchanan. What did happen -- the forces that altered his beliefs -- is unknown, at least to me.

I think some people undergo some kind of change in the balance of chemicals in their brain, or neurons die or get rerouted, or something. They probably aren't even aware that they've changed, and would in fact vigorously argue that they haven't. Not that I'm making excuses for Pat...but I hope nothing like this ever happens to me.

116 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:20pm

re: #106 opnion

WERE IS W.F. BUCKLEY when we need him a great man for sure.

117 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:31pm

re: #75 uptight

Question: Aside from Buddhism, are there any mainstream religions that are flexible enough to embrace scientific discovery without it compromising their doctrines on God and the origins of the universe?

I'm not talking about religions that merely refuse to confront the contradictions revealed by science,

Well, mine is (Catholic), and many others I'm sure. Or did I not understand the question?

118 kafir  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:42pm

re: #64 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I am a jew and a zionist, proud of both. Pat slimes my people at every opportunity.

I don't want him to shut up though. No, I want him to say what he thinks. To get these feelings out there. Because he is a racist and we will be able to see what a racist is by looking at him.

Pat bemoans the "browning" of America.

He bemoans the "contro" that jews have over everything.

He bemoans the loss of interest in his particular flavor of faith.

He is the poster child for ignorance and prejudice wrapped in a nice jacket.

He is the useful idiot of the lefty MSM when they need their view of the poster-boy conservative.

Pull him out and all your anti-conservative prejudices can be fulfilled in one easy helping.

Pat demonstrates how badly our educational system has failed some of its students.

But I don't want him silenced. He, and every other nitwit, on either side, needs the harsh light of reality shining down on them.

They show themselves to be fools. In public. In a spotlight.

They can't help themselves.

You go Pat, I'll get the popcorn and chuckle while you self-imolate.

119 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:49pm

re: #102 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Has Pat simply found a new source of funding?

Following the Smell - Obviously not the same "Rotten Broccoli" that could screw up the Beijing Olympics - Smells more like an old "Union 76" TruckStop Fueling area to me. But that's just me.

-S-

120 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:24:54pm

re: #110 Dainn

Here is pat, doing increasingly stupid and flamboyantly extreme things to break through his dwindling public profile. Like a little kids shouting "Mommy watch" as he rides a bike with no hands and crashes.

It would be sad, if I didn't want to post the video of the crash on youtube. I guess the 20 people who actually listen to this guy are cheering. Oh, and the other 19 who still watch the McLaughling Group on PBS.

Where is William F Buckley Jr. when we need him?

we think alike

121 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:25:00pm

Pat, you are a washed-up has-been with extremist views that appall average middle-class voters. Please stay away from us - you may be contagious.

122 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:25:10pm

re: #114 Sharmuta

Working in a President's administration give you cred.

Two words- George Stephanopoulos.

123 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:25:37pm

re: #111 Big Steve

That would be eugenics and I hope that's not what you meant.

124 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:25:50pm

This is of course an old topic for Pat:

From Mar 18, 1996 Time magazine:
DUMPING ON DARWIN

[...]
"I [Buchanan] believe you're a creature of God," he said. "I think [parents] have a right to insist that Godless evolution not be taught to their children or their children not be indoctrinated in it."

125 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:10pm

re: #110 Dainn

Here is pat, doing increasingly stupid and flamboyantly extreme things to break through his dwindling public profile. Like a little kids shouting "Mommy watch" as he rides a bike with no hands and crashes.

It would be sad, if I didn't want to post the video of the crash on youtube. I guess the 20 people who actually listen to this guy are cheering. Oh, and the other 19 who still watch the McLaughling Group on PBS.

Where is William F Buckley Jr. when we need him?

Pat Buchanan is a frequent guest on both MSNBC and Fox News, and has regular columns published on major conservative web sites.

There are a LOT more than 20 people listening to him. Don't underestimate him.

126 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:15pm

re: #111 Big Steve

I think on this evolution versus ID argument, we just need to prove Darwin right and just out breed the idiots. Anyone game!

I've got 7 children - I'm doing my part, and pretty well I might add.

127 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:17pm

It's weird how the new millennium (or possibly the post-911 era) has seen the convergence of dark forces.

Until now, I've thought this was limited to Marxists, Nazis, Islamists, Paulians and conspiracy nuts, but are we now going to see the religious right join this nascent nexus of evil?

It's also weird that Bush Derangement Syndrome seems to have been the catalyst - with antisemitism and hatred of America as the primary drivers and a desire to see the destruction of Israel & capitalism as the ultimate focal point.

In some ways, it's good that the enemies of freedom are converging. They are an easier target. An easier force to deal with and defeat.

In other ways, with Liberalism & white guilt forcing many to listen to them, they become a powerful lobby.

128 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:36pm

I wonder why he's still listed on Townhall's list of columnists. Right to his opinion and all that, but surely there's a point at which his colleagues might want to suggest he'd be more appropriately served by a different venue. One with a lot of Aryan symbolism in the banner. As it is, they are all lying down with one very large flea-ridden mutt.

129 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:37pm

frankly i have stopped watching banity and clomes because of PAT PUKEANAN.

130 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:38pm

re: #116 yochanan

WERE IS W.F. BUCKLEY when we need him a great man for sure.


The great man has left the building. He had Buchanans number from the jump.

131 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:26:58pm

re: #99 opnion

Here is the thing. Evolution is demostrable. Did Darwin have every detail correct ? Of course not. That does not debunk evolution.

Well, you and I know that, and evolutionary theory proponents know that, but ID advocates seem to think that unless absolutely every minutia of evolutionary and natural selection theory is holistically demonstrable upon demand, then it fails as as an explanation altogether. They then bolster their own non-scientific theory via the "either/or" logical fallacy to maintain that since evolution is incomplete (and fatally flawed, in their mind), then ID must therefore be a viable alternative.

132 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:05pm

re: #106 opnion

Buchanan was always an Arabist. Now it is clear that he is an anti Semite. You wonder, at least I do, how did he get that way?

A prerequisite to Arabist, is anti Semite.

133 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:07pm

Ah, I see 'Mathew1977' is back, dinging down my comment about the reader who emailed to support me.

134 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:16pm

re: #117 reine.de.tout

Well, mine is (Catholic), and many others I'm sure. Or did I not understand the question?

uh....Galileo. I think it was within the last decade the Pope finally admitted Galileo right. That doesn't sound like embracing science to me.

135 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:25pm

re: #118 kafir

OK, I dinged ya! It would take me 6 months to write what you just wrote. Well done. Good form.

136 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:34pm

re: #113 Slumbering Behemoth

There you go again . . . !

137 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:27:49pm
...what they are asking is that we accept it all on faith...

I'm not asking any one to accept s%#t. I don't care very much what other people think on this issue. But what I know is this, if I am to accept creationist views taught in the schools my tax dollars pay for, then they better teach that Tolkiens Middle Earth is just as possible and just as real.

138 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:06pm

re: #110 Dainn

WELCOME HATCHLING. REMEMBER THE BEER IS ON YOU
CHIMAY ALE HERE.

139 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:10pm

re: #126 DistantThunder

DAYAM!

140 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:11pm

re: #130 opnion

The great man has left the building. He had Buchanans number from the jump.

No- we have VDH, who isn't afraid to rip pat a new one.

141 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:13pm

re: #123 paradox42

That would be eugenics and I hope that's not what you meant.

I wasn't shooting for a master race.....just one that accepts obvious scientific fact.

142 Fat Jolly Penguin  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:32pm

re: #128 infidelia

Has anyone gotten a response from Townhall yet? I haven't. (Not holding my breath.)

143 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:35pm

re: #131 StinkHammer

Yup

144 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:40pm

re: #75 uptight

There is the mainstream faith of Baha'u'llah, commonly referred to as Baha'i Faith, and it is accepting of (actually REQUIRING) rational thought, the necessity for harmony between science and faith, and the need for individuals to educate themselves in sciences, arts and practical matters, that they may 'earn a living by their calling', and 'spend upon themselves and their loved ones'...

Science AND religion, knowledge AND love... :D

145 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:54pm

Tolkien's creation story is beautiful! Wouldn't you love to hear the Music of the Ainur?

re: #137 justdanny

I'm not asking any one to accept s%#t. I don't care very much what other people think on this issue. But what I know is this, if I am to accept creationist views taught in the schools my tax dollars pay for, then they better teach that Tolkiens Middle Earth is just as possible and just as real.

146 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:28:54pm

I think the high point of Pat Buchanan's career was when Bush Sr. said, "Read my lips, no new taxes." When Bush Sr. broke that pledge a lot of people voted for Pat Buchanan in the primaries as a form of protest.
Poor Pat never realized that people weren't really voting for him, but just angry at Bush Sr. If it hadn't been for that Pat would have been lower than the margin of error.

147 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:29:58pm

re: #140 Sharmuta

No- we have VDH, who isn't afraid to rip pat a new one.

A rational & convincing thinker.

148 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:30:18pm

As far as his appearances, I'm torn because if he appears and the conservative commentator rips into Pat, and exposes him for the bigoted creep he is, then that is a good thing.

The problem, as with Laura Ingrahm, - they aren't often effective enough, setting him up to make a fool of him even though he gives them plenty of ammo.

149 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:30:27pm

re: #145 Tigger2005
More beautiful than most...

150 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:30:27pm

re: #113 Slumbering Behemoth

Yeah, but that's all they got. I'd like one of them to answer these questions:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

Here, I'll volunteer some answers: None; none; and none.

End of story. In a rational world, you'd think that would be all it'd take. But we all know we don't live in a wholly rational world.

151 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:30:50pm

re: #134 Big Steve

uh....Galileo. I think it was within the last decade the Pope finally admitted Galileo right. That doesn't sound like embracing science to me.

Oh. Silly me. I thought he was talking about now, not hundreds of years ago.

152 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:31:04pm

re: #118 kafir

I

You go Pat, I'll get the popcorn and chuckle while you self-imolate.

Where you are wrong is that people watch and read what confirms their previous opinions. It is why we are comfortable on LGF.

Every time Buchanan opens his mouth or writes a column, another hater cuddles his pitchfork.

153 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:31:28pm

re: #148 DistantThunder

As far as his appearances, I'm torn because if he appears and the conservative commentator rips into Pat, and exposes him for the bigoted creep he is, then that is a good thing.

The problem, as with Laura Ingrahm, - they aren't often effective enough, setting him up to make a fool of him even though he gives them plenty of ammo.

I haven't seen a single conservative commentator challenge Buchanan on anything.

154 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:31:30pm

re: #142 Fat Jolly Penguin

Has anyone gotten a response from Townhall yet? I haven't. (Not holding my breath.)

Not I.

155 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:31:34pm

re: #133 Charles

Ah, I see 'Mathew1977' is back, dinging down my comment about the reader who emailed to support me.

By their dings you shall know them.

156 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:32:00pm

This is a "Goliath" problem approaching us. Reason is our only "David".

157 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:32:41pm

re: #152 Opinionated

Where you are wrong is that people watch and read what confirms their previous opinions. It is why we are comfortable on LGF.

Every time Buchanan opens his mouth or writes a column, another hater cuddles his pitchfork.


I don't think that Pat has many followers. He is a follower.

158 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:33:03pm

PAT PUKEANAN is a soft fascist. were david duke is a hard fascist. in the end they are both scum.

159 Shug  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:33:05pm

re: #153 Charles

I haven't seen a single conservative commentator challenge Buchanan on anything.

When do you ever see two conservatives on the television at the same time/

usually it's one conservative and four liberals.

160 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:34:25pm

ot:

Was there a thread about the 2 dead returned Israeli soldiers?

~I've been out and off of LGF throughout the day.

161 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:34:47pm

re: #158 yochanan

PAT PUKEANAN is a soft fascist. were david duke is a hard fascist. in the end they are both scum.

As bad as Duke is , don't ya thik that he is more honest?
He is a complete facist & strangely proud of it.

162 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:34:51pm

re: #142 Fat Jolly Penguin

Has anyone gotten a response from Townhall yet? I haven't. (Not holding my breath.)

The people who run Townhall.com have very obviously decided to ignore the issue.

163 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:16pm

re: #125 Charles

Pat Buchanan is a frequent guest on both MSNBC and Fox News, and has regular columns published on major conservative web sites.

There are a LOT more than 20 people listening to him. Don't underestimate him.

Point taken. What really gets me about Pat is that the MSM pushes him forward as "the voice of conservatism." They are using him as a strawman to show everyone "how stupid conservatives are." "Are you like Pat? No? Then be a liberal like the smart people."

And Pat is too much of a tool to realize any of this. Or more likely, he likes the money the attention brings.

164 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:23pm

re: #136 reine.de.tout

There you go again . . . !

Sometimes I just can't help myself. ;)

165 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:23pm

re: #142 Fat Jolly Penguin

Has anyone gotten a response from Townhall yet? I haven't. (Not holding my breath.)

I'm not talking about censoring Buchanan or interfering with his freedom of speech. What I'm talking about, figuratively of course, is taking a bullwhip to his sorry ass and beating him like a rented mule all the way over to Stormfront where he belongs. If they had any guts at Townhall they'd have done that by now. They have so many outstanding columnists on that site, I can't understand why they continue to let this creep slime their reputations.

166 hermeneutics  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:32pm

re: #110 Dainn

Here is pat, doing increasingly stupid and flamboyantly extreme things to break through his dwindling public profile. Like a little kids shouting "Mommy watch" as he rides a bike with no hands and crashes.

It would be sad, if I didn't want to post the video of the crash on youtube. I guess the 20 people who actually listen to this guy are cheering. Oh, and the other 19 who still watch the McLaughling Group on PBS.

Where is William F Buckley Jr. when we need him?

McLaughlin has been on both NBC and PBS since 1982. In early 2008, he switched his dual allegience to CBS and PBS, dropping NBC. His show remains popular and has great ratings for a news talk show. Buchanan was one of the originals on the show which included Jack Germond, Eleanor Clift, Fred Barnes, Bob Novak, and Mort Kondracke.

Buckley and McLaughlin were good friends, by the way. In the 1980s, while starting the McLaughlin Group, (John was the political columnist for NR under a pseudonym).

Anyway, all of these men go back to Nixon or Reagan. Only Buchanan and Sobran (Charles called this right) transformed their Catholicism to radical antisemitism. Oddly, those two were some of the most likeable of the bunch. McLaughlin, an ex-Jesuit priest, was a tyrant and still it, from what I hear. Buckley, though, remained gentle and urbane until his death.

167 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:33pm

re: #152 Opinionated

Where you are wrong is that people watch and read what confirms their previous opinions. It is why we are comfortable on LGF.

Every time Buchanan opens his mouth or writes a column, another hater cuddles his pitchfork.

Ahh! Leave my pitchfork out of this....
I sharpening it for congress, got a barrel full of torches too!

You are right, he just reinforces the worst elements associated with the right. The very things the left uses to paint the entire right side with.

168 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:37pm

re: #158 yochanan
The worst kind of scum they are.

169 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:53pm

re: #159 Shug

When do you ever see two conservatives on the television at the same time/

usually it's one conservative and four liberals.

And the liberals are still out numbered!

170 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:35:59pm

IF things continue to go the way of Buch, it makes knowing who to vote for as a Jew very difficult. Both parties are going to end up with me dead.

171 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:36:01pm

re: #161 opnion

SSDD

172 Opinionated  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:36:10pm

re: #157 opnion

I don't think that Pat has many followers. He is a follower.

Millions agree with him.

173 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:18pm

re: #172 Opinionated
And Vermin is there name.

174 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:19pm

re: #157 opnion

I don't think that Pat has many followers. He is a follower.

Just like with vlaams belang, we should not underestimate these fascist bigots. That they have a platform on which to spew their garbage should be enough to show there are people listening. That their bigoted ideas are coming under scrutiny causing their followers to howl should again show us that 1) we are right to expose them and 2) that they do indeed have followers.

175 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:21pm

re: #117 reine.de.tout

Well, mine is (Catholic), and many others I'm sure. Or did I not understand the question?

How does Catholicism deal with the contradictions between the Genesis explanation of the origins of life and discoveries we've made in the modern era?

Does Catholicism reject the explanations and history found in Genesis?

Does it officially contextualize Genesis as having no relevance in the modern era and explain it away as a faith-based, but woefully uninformed tract?

176 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:22pm

re: #151 reine.de.tout

Oh. Silly me. I thought he was talking about now, not hundreds of years ago.

Oh so you aren't going to own 2000 years of catholic history? That's fine, probably a good thing. The current catholic church does pretty well and in fact actually sponsors scientific research in a number of areas. However, they are still not accepting things like the obvious data that the shroud of Turin is a fake.

177 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:27pm

re: #165 infidelia

Maybe they agree with him and are just afraid to say so in public. Or he brings in money. Morality falls quickly when faced with the mighty dollar.

178 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:27pm

Another supporter, this time with an LGF account:

Dear Charles:

I'm a believer in ID and thus a Creationist, and I completely agree with your position on teaching ID in science classs. ID is being used as a Trojan Horse to shove Creationism down people's throat, pure and simple.

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it until my fellow believers cease and desist, matters of faith do not belong in the science classroom. Science has produced it's best when left alone to be science.

Keep up the good work, Charles, hopefully these knuckleheads will get it eventually.

Land Shark

179 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:40pm

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

180 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:37:55pm

re: #153 Charles

I haven't seen a single conservative commentator challenge Buchanan on anything.

I saw Hannity challenge him about how the US should have allowed Hitler to take France and Belgium without opposition. Hannity challenged him on the Holocaust happening simultaneously, and asked, so how could we have tolerated Hitler, and not intervened knowing what we knew.

Pat's responses were preposterous.

I thought Hannity treated his positions with contempt.

181 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:38:19pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Here we go again.

182 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:39:01pm

re: #179 Mathew1977
just those who want that idea taught in our schools

183 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:39:21pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Why don't you go do your homework and read some of these previous threads? You'll find your answers there.

184 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:39:32pm

Another supporter emails:

Charles,

As a born again skeptic, I am again impressed by your rationalism. Let this count as a full throated vote of support for your stance on evolution and aggressive pursuit of true even if the truth is in conflict with stated personal agendas.

I speak as a 47 year old male who has come to appreciate honesty that is fast disappearing in this society.

Carey

185 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:39:59pm

W.F. BUCKLEY was the closest we had to a intellectual in the almost 'liberal' seance our member of the charting class so to speak. with out the liberal echo chamber. a man who spoke the truth and not the troth

186 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:02pm

re: #175 uptight

How does Catholicism deal with the contradictions between the Genesis explanation of the origins of life and discoveries we've made in the modern era?

Does Catholicism reject the explanations and history found in Genesis?

Does it officially contextualize Genesis as having no relevance in the modern era and explain it away as a faith-based, but woefully uninformed tract?

I have no clue.

187 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:15pm

re: #170 WrathofG-d

IF things continue to go the way of Buch, it makes knowing who to vote for as a Jew very difficult. Both parties are going to end up with me dead.

Buchanan left the GOP in 2000 and has not rejoined it in any capacity.
He has been a vehement critic of Bush's policies and a staunch opponent of the Iraq War.
It is time for those of us who are old enough to remember the Cold War era to understand that Buchanan IS NOT A REPUBLICAN.

188 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:16pm

re: #158 yochanan

PAT PUKEANAN is a soft fascist. were david duke is a hard fascist. in the end they are both scum.

Pat's hardening up.

189 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:20pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

Bingo. Believe what you want, but keep it out of science class.

190 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:30pm

re: #183 Sharmuta

Why don't you go do your homework and read some of these previous threads? You'll find your answers there.

He has read the previous threads. He's simply coming back to repeat his talking points.

191 Dr. Shalit  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:40:58pm

re: #121 DistantThunder

Pat, you are a washed-up has-been with extremist views that appall average middle-class voters. Please stay away from us - you may be contagious.

"D-T" -

So was Herr Hitler - as to - contagion. The "UP" side is that Pat is NOWHERE near as Charismatic. Go from there.

-S-

192 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:41:06pm

re: #172 Opinionated

Millions agree with him.

Right, but i do not think that he is forming opinion. He exploits what is already there

193 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:41:10pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

I haven't felt that at all and I believe in a creator. It's just the classroom issue that divides the ID people from the rest of us.

194 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:41:26pm

re: #190 Charles

He has read the previous threads. He's simply coming back to repeat his talking points.

Oh- so he's being completely disingenuous. Thanks for the heads up.

195 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:41:52pm

re: #133 Charles

Ah, I see 'Mathew1977' is back, dinging down my comment about the reader who emailed to support me.

Yes, because it seemed like a slobbering re: #183 Sharmuta

Why don't you go do your homework and read some of these previous threads? You'll find your answers there.

I've read every single post and thought I brought up a legitimate question.

196 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:08pm

re: #179 Mathew1977
"relegated to a philosophy classroom" ?

Please. It belongs in no public school classroom.

Freedom of religion means freedom from religion.

Keep it in your home and your church and your heart. Leave me alone with it. No one is trying to stop you from worshipping your way, and I will do all I can to defend your right to worship as you wish. But leave me alone with it.

197 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:08pm

Another supporter:

Ok, here's a centrist-liberal who also appreciates your efforts re. evolution. My political/social position has shifted considerably in the past 7-8 years mainly in my intolerance of radical Islam and its fellow travellers (which is how I happened upon LGF).Still, I will probably end up voting for Obama this fall (I would have preferred Clinton) and we'll just have to agree to disagree about that. But there is no room for disagreement about science and technology in the 21st century. They are essential to an informed, rational, progressive (in the original meaning of the word) society. Creationists are the troofers of our educational system; they must not be allowed to sabotage it. Thanks for your principled stand on these issues.

-David

198 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:13pm

re: #194 Sharmuta

He's whining again.

199 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:22pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

mathew BALDERDASH. i believe in G-d but i think it should be as is not in science class. G-D is not politics I.D. IS POLITICS.

200 NoSubmission  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:23pm

I believe in God and evolution.

201 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:50pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

No disdain whatsoever, I happen to BELIEVE this.

But BELIEVING THIS does not help in the SCIENTIFIC INVESTIGATION of REALITY, Matt.

Invoking God to explain acceleration or molecular chemistry or tissue growth becomes harmful to all humankind.

"Its a MIRACLE!"

No, its H2SO4, Pal...

202 doubleplusundead  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:57pm

re: #153 Charles

I haven't seen a single conservative commentator challenge Buchanan on anything.

You're right, unfortunately, the only ones that do call his BS are bloggers, and even there, not enough are doing it.

203 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:42:58pm

re: #176 Big Steve

Oh so you aren't going to own 2000 years of catholic history? That's fine, probably a good thing. The current catholic church does pretty well and in fact actually sponsors scientific research in a number of areas. However, they are still not accepting things like the obvious data that the shroud of Turin is a fake.

As far as I know, the vatican has never officially acknowledged that the Shroud of Turin is what people like to believe it is.

Anyhow - the phrasing of your first sentence sounds like you want some sort of confrontation, and . . . well, you'll have to pick a different Catholic. Don't care who you are or what you are, don't care if you don't like Catholics.

204 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:43:43pm

re: #195 Mathew1977

re: #133 Charles

Ah, I see 'Mathew1977' is back, dinging down my comment about the reader who emailed to support me.

Yes, because it seemed like a slobbering...

Oops.

205 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:43:58pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

You're trying to change the subject. I've seen you do it on another thread.

Folks, let's not get sidetracked by this bogus accusation.

Thus spake the Great Lizard (or was it the Mighty Stinky?):

(all together now)

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

(Hope I got that right.)

206 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:17pm

re: #144 Karridine

There is the mainstream faith of Baha'u'llah, commonly referred to as Baha'i Faith, and it is accepting of (actually REQUIRING) rational thought, the necessity for harmony between science and faith, and the need for individuals to educate themselves in sciences, arts and practical matters, that they may 'earn a living by their calling', and 'spend upon themselves and their loved ones'...

Science AND religion, knowledge AND love... :D

Does Baha'i accept the idea of a central singular God?

If so, what is the role of this God?

It seems to me that the concept of a "creator" is terminally flimsy - even without modern discoveries relating to the evolution of life and the universe.

The old, impenetrable question of the origin of God springs to mind.

207 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:19pm

re: #204 Charles

Oops.

Yes, my bad.

208 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:35pm

This forum is only turning hostile toward YOU, Matthew. You are the one who insists on seeing a debate over teaching pseudoscience in schools, violating the establishment clause, as an attack on believers, and WHINES about it constantly, which GETS ON PEOPLE'S NERVES.

When I first started visiting LGF, as an atheist, I sometimes felt a bit like an outsider. But I didn't WHINE about it and constantly talk about how PERSECUTED I felt.

Cheese anyone?


re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

209 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:42pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Disdain? I disdain those who are not honest, regardless of their other beliefs.

Don't try to play a victim... I (along with others here) have never said to stop believing in God (or whatever).

210 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:44:49pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

There are many here who believe in a creator of one form or another, so your attempt to falsely characterize this site falls flat.

211 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:08pm

re: #195 Mathew1977

No, you didn't bring up a legitimate question, because the position of various Lizards is quite clear. You are just trolling again as you were last night:

Mathew1977:

I have often found that when I am in disagreement with the majority on any particular thread, that further infuriating those with opposing opinions is highly entertaining.

You deserve nothing but GAZE.

212 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:13pm

I.D. in a theology class fine. as science balderdash.

213 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:15pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Other "philosophies" we should teach:

The earth is flat.
The holocaust didn't really happen.
The moon landings were faked.
New coke is better than old coke.
One word: eugenics!

There is a threshold where a belief is relegated to the non-scientific. Creationism met that threshold over a hundred years ago. You can still belief it. You can believe the sky is green and water will work in your gastank too. Here in America we protect with force your freedom to be as out0of-touch as you want to be.

Just keep your belief systems out of the schools my children attend. If you have problems with schools teaching science, there is always home school.

214 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:20pm

re: #195 Mathew1977

I've read every single post and thought I brought up a legitimate question.

You did.

215 Purple Prose  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:23pm

According to Pat:

Darwinism claims, for example, that matter evolved from non-matter — i.e., something from nothing — that life evolved from non-life; that, through natural selection, rudimentary forms evolved into more complex forms; and that men are descended from animals or apes.

Actually, Darwinism claims nothing of the kind. Darwin and evolutionary biologists don't go back that far. They only look at living organisms.

It is the province of chemists who have pushed the boundary to what we consider non-life. Chemists have shown that organic compounds that are found in living organisms can form spontaneously from simpler compounds under the proper conditions. They have also found that chains of some of these compounds can form RNA molecules that can self-replicate and evolve through mutation toward molecules that can self-replicate even more efficiently (thus leaving more "progeny" molecules) without a cell. These molecules are like simple viruses, in a way.

So Darwinists are not so bold as to back to non-living matter, but other branches of science have shown that certain traits of living material can be easily produced in a lab and that even proto-evolutionary processes can occur without a cell or anything anyone would characterize as living.

So poor Pat is pitifully ignorant. Support for a cohesive and plausible natural origin of life comes not only from "dogmatic" Darwinists and biologists but also from chemists who are not "brainwashed" into Darwinistic thinking, since many of these chemists have never taken a biology course in their lives.

Doh!

216 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:29pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.


Do I get to be the first one to remind you that Thomas Jefferson advised us to "fix reason firmly in her seat" and to "question boldly even the existence of a god"?

217 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:31pm

re: #203 reine.de.tout

As far as I know, the vatican has never officially acknowledged that the Shroud of Turin is what people like to believe it is.

Anyhow - the phrasing of your first sentence sounds like you want some sort of confrontation, and . . . well, you'll have to pick a different Catholic. Don't care who you are or what you are, don't care if you don't like Catholics.

Not picking a fight and I am a catholic. I was just surprised when anyone mentioned our faith as being one of the open minded ones regarding scientific advances. One usually doesn't get that.

218 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:45:54pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?


No disdain here for those who believe in God. We do not want somebody teaching somebody else's version of faith in public schools in a tidily wrapped fake science package.

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.


Yep.


But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.


That's your imagination.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.


Nope.

219 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:03pm

re: #205 Josephine

You're trying to change the subject. I've seen you do it on another thread.

Folks, let's not get sidetracked by this bogus accusation.

Thus spake the Great Lizard (or was it the Mighty Stinky?):

(all together now)

Belief in God does not preclude belief in evolution.
Belief in evolution does not preclude belief in God.

(Hope I got that right.)

I agree with your statement and don't see how my comment contradicts it.

220 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:08pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

We aren't goofing on you because you believe in god. We are goofing on you because you're silly.

221 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:09pm

re: #201 Karridine

amen karridine

222 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:45pm

re: #206 uptight

Does Baha'i accept the idea of a central singular God? = Absolutely.

If so, what is the role of this God? The All-Knowing Creator, the All-Wise.

It seems to me that the concept of a "creator" is terminally flimsy - even without modern discoveries relating to the evolution of life and the universe.

The old, impenetrable question of the origin of God springs to mind.

"Veiled in the immemorial essence of My Being, I knew My love for thee, hence I created thee..."

223 justdanny  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:46:55pm

re: #211 Sharmuta
Second the GAZE ... I know better now. Its nothing but a silly troll from years gone by. I thought they had all been rounded up and pushed. Guess I was wrong.

224 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:47:04pm

re: #187 wolfie

For now....

225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:47:15pm

HEY! It's on Drudge!

Michelle is not going with BHO to Afganistan. Staying home with the daughters.

Can you imagine the photo's of him with her and her doing the "politically correct" thing by wearing a hijab?

226 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:47:21pm

re: #186 reine.de.tout

I have no clue.

That would bother me.

I can't turn a blind eye to the illogical, unexplained or unanswered. I guess I lose the beauty of faith, but I can't help the way that I feel.

227 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:47:34pm

re: #213 Dainn

frankly i like kosher for passover or Mexican coke as both use real sugar.

228 unclassifiable  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:00pm

Do we do GAZE or TAZE now?

229 HelloDare  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:10pm

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

HEY! It's on Drudge!

Michelle is not going with BHO to Afganistan. Staying home with the daughters.

Can you imagine the photo's of him with her and her doing the "politically correct" thing by wearing a hijab?

She'll wear the hijab at home so she can be with him in spirit.

230 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:15pm

re: #211 Sharmuta

No, you didn't bring up a legitimate question, because the position of various Lizards is quite clear. You are just trolling again as you were last night:

Mathew1977:

You deserve nothing but GAZE.

Call it what you will, I thought LGF was a place to contribute my thoughts.

Why are mine less legitimate than anyone else's?

231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:19pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

Oops...dinged you down before I got the sarcasm. Sorry.

232 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:32pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

ie attention whore

233 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:48:58pm

re: #225 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think it's a smart move. It's dangerous and there's no need for her to be there.

234 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:08pm

I'll bet Obama is afraid to go to Iraq and Afghanistan both politically and physically. Grow a pair.

235 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:18pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I have no disdain whatsoever for your religion, beliefs or adherence thereto.

I do, however, have disdain for slipshod argumentation, illogic, irrationality, and outright disingenuousness when it comes to attempting to forward a religious belief as scientifically based.

236 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:21pm

Some people contribute thoughts to LGF- others just troll.

237 Dainn  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:25pm

re: #138 yochanan

WELCOME HATCHLING. REMEMBER THE BEER IS ON YOU
CHIMAY ALE HERE.

Laganitas, always. May the hops be with you.

238 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:42pm

re: #233 Killgore Trout

Agreed. But I think it's more about the photos. But I am realllly cynical.

239 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:49:59pm

Maybe the trolls learn something.

240 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:04pm

re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'll forgive you because I',m morraly superior.
/

241 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:06pm

re: #233 Killgore Trout

I think it's a smart move. It's dangerous and there's no need for her to be there.


I think that they are avoiding the image of her in the head scarf.

242 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:08pm

re: #222 Karridine

what science learns about g-d's creation just proves that it wasn't an accident for example how complex is g-d's work. I know of a number of ortho Jewish scientists.

243 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:19pm

re: #233 Killgore Trout

here

244 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:29pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Do most of you have disdain for those who simply believe that the universe and everything in it was created by God, or just those who want that idea taught in our schools?

I'll even concede the point that ID should be relegated to a philosophy classroom rather than the science class.

Pat Buchanan has certainly had a screw loose for some time, so it sucks that he's held up as an example for those who believe in ID.

But I'm starting to feel alienated from the rest of the Lizards simply because I believe in God.

This forum is turning hostile toward those of us who believe in a creator.

Some crazy old coots called our founding fathers did too, if you've ever read the Declaration of Independence, so it can't be that radical a concept.

I believe that God created EVERYTHING.

I was uncomfortable with some of the comments from the non-believers at the beginning of this debate a while back but, I stuck with LGF because I immediately realized that if the Christian version of ID is taught in science classrooms in public schools, then CAIR will be quick to pounce on it and force the schools to teach the Islamic version.

THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

245 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:30pm

re: #239 DistantThunder

Maybe the trolls learn something.

How to ferment better whine.

246 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:49pm

re: #239 DistantThunder

Maybe the trolls learn something.

trolls aren't here to learn- they're only hear to stir up attention for themselves.

247 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:50pm

EC Marm,

Point of interest:

B-2 Crash at Andersen Air Force Base Accident Report

Moisture in the aircraft's Port Transducer Units during air data calibration distorted the information in the bomber's air data system, causing the flight control computers to calculate an inaccurate airspeed and a negative angle of attack upon takeoff. According to the report, this caused an, "uncommanded 30 degree nose-high pitch-up on takeoff, causing the aircraft to stall and its subsequent crash."

Moisture in the PTUs, inaccurate airspeed, a negative AOA calculation and low altitude/low airspeed are substantially contributing factors in this mishap. Another substantially contributing factor was the ineffective communication of critical information regarding a suggested technique of turning on pitot heat in order to remove moisture from the PTUs prior to performing an air data calibration.

248 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:56pm

Two words:

No.

Whining.

249 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:50:57pm

I just finished reading David R. Contosta's book on Lincoln and Darwin. I did find it interesting that both were likely atheists. Darwin clearly became one and his writing was clear on the subject. Lincoln probably always one one but sprinkled religious phrases into speeches. Probably like today, back then it would be impossible to be a card carrying atheist and run for president.

250 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:01pm

re: #214 opnion

You did.

Thanks, opnion!

251 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:15pm

re: #219 Mathew1977

I agree with your statement and don't see how my comment contradicts it.

Just so you know, I read your comments on the other thread. You seem to take pride in being a ****-disturber. I don't believe you are interested in an honest debate, so you are on GAZE as far as I'm concerned.

252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:25pm

re: #244 MandyManners

I luvs me some Mandy!

253 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:26pm

re: #244 MandyManners

Amen.

254 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:28pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

Err- they're on here. PIMF

255 Tigger2005  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:32pm

re: #230 Mathew1977

Call it what you will, I thought LGF was a place to contribute my thoughts.

Why are mine less legitimate than anyone else's?

Again, cheese, anybody?

256 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:51:39pm

re: #242 yochanan

Roger THAT, Yo! :D

Man, God LOVES laughter!

And science is astounding with laugh-worthy realities!

257 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:12pm

re: #237 Dainn

Laganitas, always. May the hops be with you.

a bit of a pickled grin welcome hatchling.

258 NoSubmission  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:13pm

re: #241 opnion

I think that they are avoiding the image of her in the head scarf.

Nothing beats that New Yorker cover!

259 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:21pm

re: #250 Mathew1977

Thanks, opnion!


My pleasure

260 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:29pm

Frankly, I'm against government being involved in Education, period.

So, while I don't think ID should be taught in science class, I think the root cause of the entire ID v Evolution in school argument, is that we expect government to decide what our children should be taught. We have been brainwashed.

If you don't want your children exposed to ID theory in school science classes, then change schools.

Stop expecting government to solve your problems. Government is the problem.

261 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:44pm

re: #249 Big Steve

I just finished reading David R. Contosta's book on Lincoln and Darwin. I did find it interesting that both were likely atheists. Darwin clearly became one and his writing was clear on the subject. Lincoln probably always one one but sprinkled religious phrases into speeches. Probably like today, back then it would be impossible to be a card carrying atheist and run for president.

I didn't know that about Lincoln. I suppose some people would claim he therefore could not have been a moral man.

262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:52:59pm

re: #251 Josephine

Trying to figure out what **** means.

263 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:01pm

re: #214 opnion

Pray tell- what legitimate question did the troll raise?

264 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:02pm

re: #249 Big Steve

I just finished reading David R. Contosta's book on Lincoln and Darwin. I did find it interesting that both were likely atheists. Darwin clearly became one and his writing was clear on the subject. Lincoln probably always one one but sprinkled religious phrases into speeches. Probably like today, back then it would be impossible to be a card carrying atheist and run for president.

That's tragic, isn't it, but your right.

265 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:04pm

re: #251 Josephine

Just so you know, I read your comments on the other thread. You seem to take pride in being a ****-disturber. I don't believe you are interested in an honest debate, so you are on GAZE as far as I'm concerned.

Contrarians can be useful in helping us define our position.

266 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:38pm

re: #245 Karridine

karridine what do bahai's think of beer?

267 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:45pm

re: #243 WrathofG-d

Heh.

268 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:53:54pm

That's tragic, isn't it, but your right.

S/b

That's tragic, isn't it, but you're right.

269 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:54:07pm

re: #258 NoSubmission

Nothing beats that New Yorker cover!

Michelle has processed hair. So except for the Fro,it was spot on!

270 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:54:21pm

Resistance is sexy.

271 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:54:23pm

re: #247 Geepers
Interesting. A little bit of pilot error or lack of training, maybe. I've got to imagine there's a lot of potential humidity in Guam. Cool pix. Thanks.

272 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:03pm

re: #265 DistantThunder

He's not here to be a contrarian to help us better define our views- he's here to piss us off for his entertainment.

Again:

I have often found that when I am in disagreement with the majority on any particular thread, that further infuriating those with opposing opinions is highly entertaining.

273 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:04pm
274 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:20pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

trolls aren't here to learn- they're only hear to stir up attention for themselves.

I'm hesitant to respond to this, since it may be seen as an admission of my being a troll, but I really am here to learn.

I had not heard the term 'troll' until I was called one yesterday.

What can I do to atone for my troll-like behavior?

I don't want to be shouted down every time I post my opinion on a subject.

And that's the last thing I'll say that can be called whining, or 'stating my case' as I like to call it.

275 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:27pm

re: #260 Reno911

After getting rid of public schools, then what? What takes their place?

276 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:29pm

re: #266 yochanan

karridine what do bahai's think of beer?


If humans are made in the image of G*d, then our purpose is to Know and to Love. Intoxicants inhibit our ability to know and love.

277 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:55:38pm
278 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:56:14pm

re: #265 DistantThunder

Contrarians can be useful in helping us define our position.

I'll take it!

279 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:56:32pm

re: #264 Walter L. Newton

That's tragic, isn't it, but your right.

That point underscores what I meant by "No Whining". From those who believe in God. You are the majority. We who are atheist cannot even successfully run for office in this allegedly "secular" society. So please. No. Whining.

280 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:56:46pm

re: #274 Mathew1977

I'm hesitant to respond to this, since it may be seen as an admission of my being a troll, but I really am here to learn.

I had not heard the term 'troll' until I was called one yesterday.

What can I do to atone for my troll-like behavior?

I don't want to be shouted down every time I post my opinion on a subject.

And that's the last thing I'll say that can be called whining, or 'stating my case' as I like to call it.

"Slobbering" what? Care to finish that sentence?

281 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:56:53pm

re: #276 Karridine

don't do it all that offen but once and a wile sometimes to feel good isn't all that bad.

282 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:07pm

re: #261 infidelia

I didn't know that about Lincoln. I suppose some people would claim he therefore could not have been a moral man.

Contosta does a pretty good job of giving both sides of the argument as to whether Lincoln was an atheist. Early writings and recollections of friends are squarely in the atheist camp. However he also quoted the bible and used God's name often in speeches. For example in the Gettysburg address - that this nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom...

283 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:13pm

I just want to make a point, here.

If PB considers himself a Christian and considers the Church to replace Israel then, by definition, he is not a Christian.

The G-d of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is a covenant keeping G-d. He may allow, He has allowed, many curses to befall Israel as He plainly states would befall her, if she does not obey His Word. But that does not mean He will ever foresake Israel. He has shown his mercy many times, has allowed for the Restoration of Israel, in 1948. His hand was with Israel during that stunning victory in 1967. He is G-d and he keeps covenants.

Jesus is a Jew. He came first to the Jew, then the Gentiles. He came to save all men that believe, but He will work through Israel. The Church is described and a wild vine, an unatural branch, that is grafted into the natural vine, that being Israel. We are told this so self-righteous bobbleheads like Buchanan would not boast against Israel (all this Romans 10 and 11)

I have a love for Israel that can only come from being a fervent reader of His Word and I wouldnt for one second claim that I, as a Christian, replace the Jews as being God's chosen people. Never.

Pat B, is jerk. He may believe, as I do, that G-d created the universe and all in it, but that is probably where the comparison ends, as does mullahs who think the same (except their "god" stems from Ashteroth, the moon god.....yeah, you get the point)

Please, I speak from the heart, I dont want any "piss up ropes" or "shove it where the sun dont shine". If you are thinking this, keep it to y'selves.

284 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:35pm

re: #239 DistantThunder

Maybe the trolls learn something.

Learning is not the modus operandi of a troll. Shit disturbing is their only goal.

285 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:38pm
286 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:41pm

re: #274 Mathew1977

What can I do to atone for my troll-like behavior?

Go UPTHREAD and read some of the realities of accepting scientific evolution AND belief in God Almighty; ACKNOWLEDGE your reading of those comments, and THEN, IF PERHAPS you have questions, raise NEW questions.

287 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:57:47pm

re: #275 paradox42

The Free Market.

288 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:58:02pm

re: #280 Charles

"Slobbering" what? Care to finish that sentence?

I stopped typing it for a reason. My original reaction was to make a snarky comment, but cooler heads prevailed and I moved on. So, no I don't wish to finish that sentence.

289 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:58:13pm

re: #179 Mathew1977

Mat,

I am a Christian and pretty out spoken about it around these parts.

First of all my faith, my belief in a Creator and His Intelligent Design of universe is absolute.

That belief is faith, not science, it doesn't belong in a science class. No test can be contrived, no proof submitted to substantiate physically my faith, my beliefs that's why it's faith, not science.

What the Disco Institute is trying to push is not science, it is also bad faith. Fighting the spiritual warfare in the realm of flesh and blood. Should the succeed the unintended consequences will be far reaching and be far worse than not having creationism taught as science.

Furthermore as a believer in a The Creator, I also must believe in the creation, and what the creation tells me. The Creator incorporated certain laws in to his creation, these laws keep everything running smoothly. Keep random sh*t from happening. Man has the ability to discover these laws. For example quantum physics govern how atoms behave, the behavior is at the quantum level is not random but highly predictable, with the predictability material could suddenly behave in strange ways, but that never, ever happens. A table made of steel remains that. Those same quantum rules tell us the ages of other materials.

What the proponents of ID and creationism from the DI propose is that the quantum laws of physics work fine for predicting the behavior and properties of a steel table, no longer work when determining the age of that same table.

That disconnect applies across all disciplines of science cherry picking what fits and what doesn't. You can't do that. You have to encompass all of creation and everything it tells you.

290 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:58:35pm

re: #244 MandyManners

I believe that God created EVERYTHING.

I was uncomfortable with some of the comments from the non-believers at the beginning of this debate a while back but, I stuck with LGF because I immediately realized that if the Christian version of ID is taught in science classrooms in public schools, then CAIR will be quick to pounce on it and force the schools to teach the Islamic version.

THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

Mandy, I completely agree with you, but I wish people could stay focused on that idea rather than being determined to convince Christians that they're wrong, stupid, or evil.

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

291 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:04pm

EC Marm (#271),

Interesting. A little bit of pilot error or lack of training, maybe. I've got to imagine there's a lot of potential humidity in Guam.

Part of the problem when things always work is you get complacent that they always will.

Cool pix.

I think that one's a total write off.

292 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:14pm

re: #279 infidelia

That point underscores what I meant by "No Whining". From those who believe in God. You are the majority. We who are atheist cannot even successfully run for office in this allegedly "secular" society. So please. No. Whining.

You mistake my tone and tenor, that wasn't meant to be a whine.

If you have ever read my posts here, you know I don't whine, stomp my feet or demand that anyone listen to me.

293 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:15pm

re: #281 yochanan

Don't sweat the small stuff, Yo.

When I found the way to myself, I lost the way to the liquor store. :D

294 Josephine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:30pm

re: #262 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Trying to figure out what **** means.

Really? Or are you teasing me? I thought that was a common term.

295 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:43pm

re: #248 infidelia

Two words:

No.

Whining.

Whyyyyyyyyyyyy noooooooooottttttttttttttttt?

296 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 6:59:46pm

re: #287 Reno911

What about people who can't afford it? Do you want to go back to the days when only the wealthy could afford education?
Maybe you're right, mass literacy is overrated after all.

297 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:00:30pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

hahaha saw this guy a looooong time ago (1st LA show) in person. Way before Matisyahu.

Pretty funny stuff. Bringing the accordion back.

298 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:00:46pm

re: #263 Sharmuta

Pray tell- what legitimate question did the troll raise?

As I read it, he is saying that the concept of God is not necessarily in opposition to Evolution

299 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:00:53pm

re: #289 jcm

Mat,

I am a Christian and pretty out spoken about it around these parts.

First of all my faith, my belief in a Creator and His Intelligent Design of universe is absolute.

That belief is faith, not science, it doesn't belong in a science class. No test can be contrived, no proof submitted to substantiate physically my faith, my beliefs that's why it's faith, not science.

What the Disco Institute is trying to push is not science, it is also bad faith. Fighting the spiritual warfare in the realm of flesh and blood. Should the succeed the unintended consequences will be far reaching and be far worse than not having creationism taught as science.

Furthermore as a believer in a The Creator, I also must believe in the creation, and what the creation tells me. The Creator incorporated certain laws in to his creation, these laws keep everything running smoothly. Keep random sh*t from happening. Man has the ability to discover these laws. For example quantum physics govern how atoms behave, the behavior is at the quantum level is not random but highly predictable, with the predictability material could suddenly behave in strange ways, but that never, ever happens. A table made of steel remains that. Those same quantum rules tell us the ages of other materials.

What the proponents of ID and creationism from the DI propose is that the quantum laws of physics work fine for predicting the behavior and properties of a steel table, no longer work when determining the age of that same table.

That disconnect applies across all disciplines of science cherry picking what fits and what doesn't. You can't do that. You have to encompass all of creation and everything it tells you.

Thank you. Your post seems to me to be the most reasoned positing of that opinion I've read herein so far.

300 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:00:55pm

Rats. Somebody called it "Disco Institute" and now I can't get the image of John Travolta out of my mind.

301 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:03pm

re: #246 Sharmuta

trolls aren't here to learn- they're only hear to stir up attention for themselves.

re: #284 Slumbering Behemoth

Learning is not the modus operandi of a troll. Shit disturbing is their only goal.


I know I have a lot of empty space between my ears, but that doesn't mean you should be spending so much time in my head.
//

GMTA!

302 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:10pm

re: #260 Reno911

If you don't want your children exposed to ID theory in school science classes, then change schools.

So you're saying we should just give up and let creationism be taught in public schools?

I don't think so.

303 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:15pm

re: #283 A Kiwi Infidel

I just want to make a point, here.

If PB considers himself a Christian and considers the Church to replace Israel then, by definition, he is not a Christian.

Here we go again. The magic answer.

304 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:17pm

re: #283 A Kiwi Infidel


If PB considers himself a Christian and considers the Church to replace Israel then, by definition, he is not a Christian.

Hmm? It is a fairly common, old Christian doctrine.

305 Alouette  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:28pm

re: #244 MandyManners

I believe that God created EVERYTHING.

I was uncomfortable with some of the comments from the non-believers at the beginning of this debate a while back but, I stuck with LGF because I immediately realized that if the Christian version of ID is taught in science classrooms in public schools, then CAIR will be quick to pounce on it and force the schools to teach the Islamic version.

THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

Dittos.

And, whenever I see an ID thread here, I remind myself that there is a time to speak out and a time to shut the fuck up.

306 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:38pm

re: #297 WrathofG-d

Neo-Klezmer rules!

307 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:46pm

re: #290 goddessoftheclassroom

Mandy, I completely agree with you, but I wish people could stay focused on that idea rather than being determined to convince Christians that they're wrong, stupid, or evil.

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

Yes, there are some who do, and best handled by simply ignoring them. They don't add much, anyhow, just seem to be hankering for a confrontation of some sort.

308 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:01:50pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

These are the good old days

Damnit, man! You made me dance.

309 IslandLibertarian  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:01pm

What I believe is none of your business.
What you think of me is none of my business.

How many WASPs does it take to change a light-bulb?

Two. One to call the servants and one to mix the drinks.

/whatever...................

310 EC Marm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:04pm

re: #258 NoSubmission

Nothing beats that New Yorker cover!


I was truly insulted that they would think that folks on the right think like that. (Hehehe) BTW: Here's a new 'Inauguaration' Photoshop I'm almost finished. Obviously, I have to have Michelle supporting the koran in some way, but I'll get around to it.

311 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:20pm
312 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:29pm

re: #302 Charles

Why not? They can put it right in between "how to put a condom on a banana class" and a reading of "my two daddies".

:D

313 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:36pm
314 WhiteRasta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:38pm

re: #291 Geepers

Yea. A few drops of water can bring down a billion dollar aircraft.......

Murphy's 13th law in action....

315 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:39pm

re: #300 infidelia

Rats. Somebody called it "Disco Institute" and now I can't get the image of John Travolta out of my mind.

Dean Denny Terrio

316 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:46pm

re: #222 Karridine

"Veiled in the immemorial essence of My Being, I knew My love for thee, hence I created thee..."

But how does God (or his autobiographer) explain his own creator-free perpetuity?

And if we are expected to accept concepts like intelligence without matter, existence without creation or causality and time without beginning or end when it comes to God, why is it anathema to extend these ideas to the universe itself.

If God, in perpetual nothingness, intervened to create substance, it does not explain where this God - or indeed the substance came from.

And that's without wrestling with the idea of an omnipotent, transdimensional, eternal superdude needing a rest after 6 days.

317 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:51pm

re: #290 goddessoftheclassroom

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

A lot of posters do, my faith is strong enough that whatever anybody posts does not really bother me all that much. Last night I was basically called a fundamentalist muslim and today I think it was inferred that I was a nazi because of my beliefs. I laughed at both of those things. Agree to disagree and move on.

318 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:02:59pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

My friend, you are never alone

319 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:04pm

re: #295 MandyManners

Whyyyyyyyyyyyy noooooooooottttttttttttttttt?

Because I'll put all your books back and you'll leave the store with nothing if you don't stop asking me for that...

Oh. Sorry. That's what I hear all day at work, I must have been having a flashback.

320 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:11pm

re: #297 WrathofG-d

hahaha saw this guy a looooong time ago (1st LA show) in person. Way before Matisyahu.

Pretty funny stuff. Bringing the accordion back.

Take it from an accordion player, the accordion never left, just our audiences.

321 jaunte  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:20pm

There is no actual "ID theory", just a set of random criticisms of evolutionary biology that are not holding up very well.

322 Quintus_Arius  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:41pm

Theology and science do coexist. The Bible: theology, not science.
Catholics do not take Genesis 'literally'. It is a theological presentation of creation. It makes no sense to an atheist.

On the other hand, I have no problem with the theory of evolution. I just believe my God was the Prime Mover, not only of our humanity, but universal existence.

I concede that is leap of faith, but no one here can make a better claim on the truth. I just know there is only ONE truth. We don't get to define our own truth to suit ourselves for the current fad.

I like to quote Benedict XVI:

How many winds of teaching we have known in these last decades, how many ideologies, how many ways of thinking...The little vessel of thought of many Christians has often been rocked by these waves -- hurled from one extreme to another: from Marxism to liberalism, to the point of libertinism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism and so forth. New sects are born every day and we see what Saint Paul says in terms of human trickery and cunning that tends to lead to error (cf Eph 4:14). To have a clear faith, according to the Creed of the Church, is often labelled as fundamentalism. While relativism, i.e. letting oneself be "swept along by any wind of doctrine", seems to be the only up-to-date way to behave. A dictatorship of relativism is taking shape which recognizes nothing as definite and for the ultimate measure is simply one's own self and its desires

323 Sharmuta  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:48pm

re: #301 Slumbering Behemoth

My friend- I know you jest, but give yourself more credit. You're a smart guy.

324 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:03:54pm

re: #304 freetoken

that would be replacement theolgy and siince it has a name there must be people who blieve it.

325 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:12pm

re: #311 buzzsawmonkey

You may find this soothing.

{buzzsawmonkey}

You have no idea how much I needed that.

326 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:27pm

re: #321 jaunte

There is no actual "ID theory", just a set of random criticisms of evolutionary biology that are not holding up very well.

Well put.

327 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:41pm

By the way, I've found an interview with David Berlinski of the Discovery Institute in which he very explicitly advocates allying with the Islamic creationists to promote their agenda.

328 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:46pm

re: #306 Killgore Trout

Neo-Klezmer rules!

Have you heard the Klezmer surf band?

329 lawhawk  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:04:52pm

re: #213 Dainn

Other "philosophies" we should teach:

The earth is flat.
The holocaust didn't really happen.
The moon landings were faked.
New coke is better than old coke.
One word: eugenics!

It was with that in mind that the Discovery Institute was proffering the law that recently passed in Louisiana to my chagrin that essentially opens up school districts to serious levels of chicanery on what gets taught as supplemental materials.

Everything you mentioned above could get included as a supplemental material in the teaching of science. That is to say, materials proposing or supporting such concepts could get included in curricula in Louisiana school districts, along with ID, because of the law that Jindal signed.

The capacity for mischief is serious and real. And the people who will suffer most are the children whose educations will suffer as a result of time wasted trying to deal with this. Time and money, that is - as the issue will raise lawsuits and drain budgets.

330 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:02pm

re: #310 EC Marm

I was truly insulted that they would think that folks on the right think like that. (Hehehe) BTW: Here's a new 'Inauguaration' Photoshop I'm almost finished. Obviously, I have to have Michelle supporting the koran in some way, but I'll get around to it.

Please submit this to the New Yorker ASAP!

331 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:30pm

re: #317 VegasRick

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

A lot of posters do, my faith is strong enough that whatever anybody posts does not really bother me all that much. Last night I was basically called a fundamentalist muslim and today I think it was inferred that I was a nazi because of my beliefs. I laughed at both of those things. Agree to disagree and move on.

I wish I could be that unaffected.

Some might call your attitude 'milquetoast'.

I tend to get a little riled when such aspersions are cast on me by those same posters and so I respond in kind.

332 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:35pm

re: #304 freetoken

Hmm? It is a fairly common, old Christian doctrine.


It is a church doctrine, not a christian doctrine. Think about it.

333 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:41pm

re: #252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I luvs me some Mandy!

re: #253 DistantThunder

Amen.

This is often lost in this debate but, it is the most important point.

That said, I've wondered tonight about the fact that Buchanan agrees with the ID folks, and that Muslims are joining forces with them.

I'm not leveling any accusations, I'm not suggesting anything.

I just find it interesting.

334 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:43pm

re: #312 WrathofG-d

Why not? They can put it right in between "how to put a condom on a banana class" and a reading of "my two daddies".

:D

Wrath, would you believe 'banana' in Thai (language) is a cognate/homophone for 'penis'? VERY subtle shading of sound differentiates the two, and new Thai-learners from abroad are almost ALWAYS treated to a 'banana-penis' debacle, in public, to the vast enjoyment of native Thais! :D

335 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:50pm

re: #274 Mathew1977


I had not heard the term 'troll' until I was called one yesterday.

If you say that, until yesterday, you have never, EVER, been anywhere on the internet, than I might believe that statement above.

336 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:05:56pm

re: #296 paradox42

"What about people who can't afford it?"

Uh...they re-prioritize what's important. Get a better job. Home-school. Work 2 or 3 jobs. The list is endless.

Again, the issue is Freedom. Perhaps you have heard of it.

Freedom to teach ID as science v Freedom not to teach ID as science.

Both sides are wrong in this debate. You teach your children the way you want and I will teach my children the way I want.

Stop expecting government to restrict the freedom of one group over another.

337 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:07pm

re: #175 uptight

How does Catholicism deal with the contradictions between the Genesis explanation of the origins of life and discoveries we've made in the modern era?

Does Catholicism reject the explanations and history found in Genesis?

Does it officially contextualize Genesis as having no relevance in the modern era and explain it away as a faith-based, but woefully uninformed tract?


The answer to your last question is ABSOLUTELYNOT.

The Catholic Church has "contextualized" Genesis in many ways over the centuries. (The literalist,"historical" view, BTW, was rarely considered the best exegesis, at least in the medieval period.) But the importance and relevance of Genesis has always been central to the faith, just as it is now.

The foundations of Catholic (and Eastern Orthodox) doctrine rest on apostolic authority, tradition, Scripture, and reason.

Protestants who rest their doctrine on Scripture alone will approach things differently. There are also radical, "total depravity" Christians who maintain that human reason is so far fallen as to be completely unreliable, but that's another story.

338 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:17pm

re: #328 Walter L. Newton

How about neo-violins?

339 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:25pm

re: #318 WrathofG-d

Good one!

340 Thanos  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:32pm

re: #247 Geepers

Crap. I hope everyone survived, but that moisture on the sensor things' gotta get straightened out.

341 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:44pm

re: #310 EC Marm

I was truly insulted that they would think that folks on the right think like that. (Hehehe) BTW: Here's a new 'Inauguaration' Photoshop I'm almost finished. Obviously, I have to have Michelle supporting the koran in some way, but I'll get around to it.

He is the Messiah! He's levitating the Koran!

342 StinkHammer  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:47pm

re: #327 Charles

By the way, I've found an interview with David Berlinski of the Discovery Institute in which he very explicitly advocates allying with the Islamic creationists to promote their agenda.

No shit?

343 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:57pm

re: #327 Charles

By the way, I've found an interview with David Berlinski of the Discovery Institute in which he very explicitly advocates allying with the Islamic creationists to promote their agenda.

That is truly frightening. But if Berlinski is not Muslim, what does he believe he has to gain by supporting Islamic creationists? Is is simply that he doesn't understand the aims of Islamism?

344 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:06:58pm

re: #334 Karridine

Wrath, would you believe 'banana' in Thai (language) is a cognate/homophone for 'penis'? VERY subtle shading of sound differentiates the two, and new Thai-learners from abroad are almost ALWAYS treated to a 'banana-penis' debacle, in public, to the vast enjoyment of native Thais! :D

That's why I got arrested the last time I was there. Thanks for the explanation.

345 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:07pm

re: #331 Mathew1977

I wish I could be that unaffected.

Some might call your attitude 'milquetoast'.

I tend to get a little riled when such aspersions are cast on me by those same posters and so I respond in kind.

I would ask about turning the other cheek but, I don't do so well in that area.

346 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:08pm

re: #334 Karridine

I'll have to get a thai GF and make the mistake.

347 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:10pm

re: #332 A Kiwi Infidel

It is a church doctrine, not a christian doctrine. Think about it.

It is a very common belief down through the ages, as someone else had noted, occasionally it is called "replacement", but there are variations such as "continuation" rather than replacement. Anyway, it is/was pretty standard belief.

348 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:16pm

re: #331 Mathew1977

I wish I could be that unaffected.

Some might call your attitude 'milquetoast'.

I tend to get a little riled when such aspersions are cast on me by those same posters and so I respond in kind.

If you knew me you would get a laugh out of that. You are not going to change any of these folks minds so arguing the point is a waste of time.

349 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:29pm

re: #327 Charles

Are you going to post it here? I'd definitely like to read it.

350 HelloDare  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:33pm

re: #327 Charles

You realize of course that it proves nothing./

351 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:07:49pm

re: #328 Walter L. Newton

No, not yet.

352 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:01pm

I'll post about the Berlinski interview soon. It's a RealAudio feed, and I need to convert it to MP3 when I have a few free minutes.

353 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:20pm

re: #329 lawhawk

Other "philosophies" we should teach:

The earth is flat.

Which immediately makes room for demands that ALL GLOBES of EARTH be removed from classrooms, in the interests of fairness...

354 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:34pm

re: #335 Slumbering Behemoth

If you say that, until yesterday, you have never, EVER, been anywhere on the internet, than I might believe that statement above.

I'm all over the internet all the time for work and entertainment, but this is the only forum I have actively participated in. So, yes, in that sense I am a noob. I don't care whether you believe my statement or not. It is true.

355 VegasRick  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:38pm

bbl

356 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:08:43pm

re: #338 WrathofG-d

How about neo-violins?

Accordion - definition - Stomach Stienway

357 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:05pm

re: #334 Karridine

i am sure lol

358 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:16pm

re: #338 WrathofG-d

Some friends of mine: 3 leg Torso

359 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:23pm

re: #336 Reno911

But public schools ARE 'government schools', Reno.

360 freetoken  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:38pm

re: #327 Charles

By the way, I've found an interview with David Berlinski of the Discovery Institute in which he very explicitly advocates allying with the Islamic creationists to promote their agenda.

Is that the CBC piece? I found it so incriminating... it is such a "kumbayah" lets-hold-hands conversation, that I find it incredulous that Berlinski could claim the ID movement is not a religious movement after that.

361 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:09:43pm

re: #356 Walter L. Newton

re: #358 Killgore Trout

Neo-Klezmerish

362 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:10:06pm

re: #360 freetoken

Is that the CBC piece? I found it so incriminating... it is such a "kumbayah" lets-hold-hands conversation, that I find it incredulous that Berlinski could claim the ID movement is not a religious movement after that.

Yes, it's the CBC interview.

363 NY Nana  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:10:23pm

re: #160 WrathofG-d

Here it is, Wrath.

I am still livid re the release...too angry to speak coherently.

364 yochanan  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:10:46pm

good nite lizards.

365 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:10:57pm

re: #351 Killgore Trout

No, not yet.

The name of the group is Meshugga Beach Party. If you search Google, you should be able to find a whole album that they release free, download the mp3's.

366 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:00pm

re: #347 freetoken

It is a very common belief down through the ages, as someone else had noted, occasionally it is called "replacement", but there are variations such as "continuation" rather than replacement. Anyway, it is/was pretty standard belief.


Good point. What should have made everyone sit up, sharp-like, was when the Balfour Declaration came into effect and Israel was, indeed, reborn in one day, in 1948. Replacement theology has bone bones, albeit brittle, prior to that, but post 1948 they became dust, well, they should have.

367 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:13pm

re: #358 Killgore Trout

P.S. The guy in the bathtub is my ski/fishing buddy.

368 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:14pm

re: #317 VegasRick

Charles does NOT suggest any of these, but some posters do.

A lot of posters do, my faith is strong enough that whatever anybody posts does not really bother me all that much. Last night I was basically called a fundamentalist muslim and today I think it was inferred that I was a nazi because of my beliefs. I laughed at both of those things. Agree to disagree and move on.

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, it's not so easy for me.

(This is going to get soppy; you have been warned)

The past year has been particularly crummy for me, and LGF has been a haven of friends and support. I should simply avoid these threads because I can't laugh off what I feel to be attacks on my faith, but the camaraderie and discussions have been so important to me.

What bothers me is that some Lizards don't even seem to care ho much they hurt others as long as they can make their points, and that's the atmosphere that dismays me.

Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads, but I have enough disappointment and hurt in real life without having to face it here.

369 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:21pm

re: #364 yochanan

good nite lizards.


Good night.

370 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:29pm

re: #302 Charles

No, I'm saying if you don't like what's taught to your children in government-run schools. Either work to rid this nation of the scourge of government-run schools and/or get your children out of them.

The ID v Evolution in public schools debate is an "effect" of government-run schools, the "cause" is government-run schools.

371 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:31pm

re: #344 Walter L. Newton

ROFL!

Bilingual sons laughing too, Walter!

LMAO! :D

372 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:37pm

The interview's on this page, if anyone wants to get a jump on it:

[Link: www.cbc.ca...]

Scroll down to "Turkey – Creationism Documentary".

373 ornery elephant  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:37pm

re: #312 WrathofG-d

Why not? They can put it right in between "how to put a condom on a banana class" and a reading of "my two daddies".

:D

now THAT is a classic ! hahaha :wiping coffee off the monitor:

thank you Wrath

374 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:52pm

re: #348 VegasRick

If you knew me you would get a laugh out of that. You are not going to change any of these folks minds so arguing the point is a waste of time.

It's the attitude I was referring to, not you as a person.

Is that you in your photo?

If so, I retract my comment and pray you don't snap my neck with your ridiculously large muscles.

375 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:11:56pm

re: #358 Killgore Trout

They are great. When I went to camp as a kid we called that 1st song they are playing the "tofu on my table" song (not sure how it got that name)

376 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:01pm

re: #305 Alouette

Dittos.

And, whenever I see an ID thread here, I remind myself that there is a time to speak out and a time to shut the fuck up.

Animist, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Deist, Jew, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, et al.: we either stick together and win or, we will lose one by one.

377 wolfie  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:02pm

re: #176 Big Steve

Oh so you aren't going to own 2000 years of catholic history? That's fine, probably a good thing. The current catholic church does pretty well and in fact actually sponsors scientific research in a number of areas. However, they are still not accepting things like the obvious data that the shroud of Turin is a fake.

I have a strong suspicion that you don't know a damn thing about "2000 years of catholic history."
Even the medieval church sponsored scientific research.

378 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:06pm

re: #353 Karridine

Which immediately makes room for demands that ALL GLOBES of EARTH be removed from classrooms, in the interests of fairness...


What about the flat maps that prove the earth is flat, hmmm?

379 Killgore Trout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:20pm

re: #365 Walter L. Newton

Meshugga Beach Party
Awesome!

380 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:27pm

re: #244 MandyManners

I believe that God created EVERYTHING.

I was uncomfortable with some of the comments from the non-believers at the beginning of this debate a while back but, I stuck with LGF because I immediately realized that if the Christian version of ID is taught in science classrooms in public schools, then CAIR will be quick to pounce on it and force the schools to teach the Islamic version.

THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

That is the nub of it.

Whatever our differing explanations for life, the one incontrovertible truth is that we are here, now and this is the reality we are dealing with on a day to day basis.

This means we are have to make the most of it and stop evil people screwing it up for everyone else.

These are the basics.

381 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:42pm

re: #353 Karridine

Which immediately makes room for demands that ALL GLOBES of EARTH be removed from classrooms, in the interests of fairness...

Or, use Terry Pratchett "Discworld" novels instead of science texts. More fun for everyone!

382 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:12:48pm

re: #363 NY Nana

Hey NY NANA. Long time.

These are these days. Nothing surprises me anymore with Olmert.

383 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:17pm

re: #346 WrathofG-d

Easy, Big Fella!

384 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:18pm

The Berlinski section starts at about 11:40.

385 Crimsonfisted  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:28pm

re: #213 Dainn

New coke is better than old coke.


Heresy! Bite your tongue! You need a time out young man!

386 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:31pm

re: #376 MandyManners

Animist, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Deist, Jew, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, et al.: we either stick together and win or, we will lose one by one.

Mandy, you just nailed it!

387 Charles  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:41pm

Sorry -- it's Paul Berlinski, not David.

388 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:13:49pm

re: #322 Quintus_Arius

Theology and science do coexist. The Bible: theology, not science.
Catholics do not take Genesis 'literally'. It is a theological presentation of creation. It makes no sense to an atheist.

On the other hand, I have no problem with the theory of evolution. I just believe my God was the Prime Mover, not only of our humanity, but universal existence.

Now I can live with that - even accept it as a theoretical possibility, but is it the official position?

389 Geepers  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:08pm

Thanos (#340),

That was the B-2 that crashed (first time ever) back in February. They were flying back to the States from Guam. Pilot and Co-Pilot ejected with minor injuries.

390 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:14pm

re: #359 Karridine

I see you get the point.

Now about that Thai GF...

391 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:30pm

re: #323 Sharmuta

My friend- I know you jest, but give yourself more credit. You're a smart guy.

Thank you, but I love to indulge in self-deprecation for the sake of a laugh. It also keeps me from thinking I'm all morally superior and stuff.

392 paradox42  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:32pm

re: #336 Reno911

It has nothing to do with freedom. This isn't an issue where each side has validity. One side has the facts, the other is full of crap.
And what do we do about kids whose parents are crack heads? Why deprive them of an education because their parents are waste products?

393 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:36pm

re: #213 Dainn

Other "philosophies" we should teach:
...
New coke is better than old coke.
...

Well, I'm hosed. I really liked New Coke.

394 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:14:42pm

re: #307 reine.de.tout

Yes, there are some who do, and best handled by simply ignoring them. They don't add much, anyhow, just seem to be hankering for a confrontation of some sort.

He/she means me.

395 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:15:11pm

re: #376 MandyManners

Animist, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Deist, Jew, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, et al.: we either stick together and win or, we will lose one by one.

+1

"first they came for the new age Wiccans..."

396 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:15:25pm

I get the feeling we have just lost Goddessoftheclassroom

397 opnion  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:16:15pm

re: #395 uptight

+1

"first they came for the new age Wiccans..."


Then the Druids........

398 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:16:17pm

re: #393 esch

Well, I'm hosed. I really liked New Coke.

I'm at a loss.

I haven't done any coke since the 80's

399 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:16:39pm

re: #376 MandyMannersre: #381 infidelia

Oh, yeah, Man! Now we're teaching toooooooke! *pause* REALITY!

400 profitsbeard  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:16:41pm

Pat isn't fit to lick a trilobite's coprolite.

Cherry-picking the 'scientific' pits to suit his shallow stupidities.

401 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:02pm

re: #394 Big Steve

He/she means me.

You think? I had a couple of others in mind, not you.

402 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:04pm
403 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:08pm

re: #379 Killgore Trout

Meshugga Beach Party
Awesome!

Glad I could add a little culture to your miserable atheist existence.

/

404 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:21pm

re: #368 goddessoftheclassroom

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, it's not so easy for me.

(This is going to get soppy; you have been warned)

The past year has been particularly crummy for me, and LGF has been a haven of friends and support. I should simply avoid these threads because I can't laugh off what I feel to be attacks on my faith, but the camaraderie and discussions have been so important to me.

What bothers me is that some Lizards don't even seem to care ho much they hurt others as long as they can make their points, and that's the atmosphere that dismays me.

Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads, but I have enough disappointment and hurt in real life without having to face it here.

I have a suggestion. Try to remember that the atheists here are also human beings with lives and families and jobs and troubles to get through. Try to understand that reality to us is as sacred as your god is to you. Then try applying the Golden Rule. It's a good one.

405 Mich-again  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:26pm
2 Timothy 4:3-4

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Interesting no?

406 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:35pm

re: #398 uptight

Well, that explains the name..

8)

407 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:50pm

re: #402 buzzsawmonkey

I certainly hope you're wrong. It's bad enough that we don't see Mama Winger here anymore.

But I am praying for her, and little winger.

408 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:17:59pm

re: #401 reine.de.tout

You think? I had a couple of others in mind, not you.

bless you.....no more arguments I promise.

409 The Other Les  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:01pm

A new Unspeakable Vault (of Doom!)

[Link: www.macguff.fr...]

410 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:05pm

re: #407 A Kiwi Infidel

What happened to Mama Winger?

411 uptight  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:19pm

re: #397 opnion

Then the Druids........

actually, first they came for Irshad Manji

412 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:23pm

re: #402 buzzsawmonkey

I certainly hope you're wrong. It's bad enough that we don't see Mama Winger here anymore.

No, I'm still here. It's nice to know that some would miss me.

413 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:24pm

re: #379 Killgore Trout

Meshugga Beach Party
Awesome!

As a keyboard player, I really dig the guy in shorts. Ah, I mean, as his performer persona.

414 Karridine  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:42pm

re: #386 opnion

Animist, Atheist, Buddhist, Christian, Deist, Jew, Shintoist, Zoroastrian, et al.: we either stick together and win, or we will lose one by one.
Mandy, you just nailed it!


The MEANING of the American revolutionary slogan,

"We must all hang together (stick together, be unified) or we shall assuredly all hang (by the neck until dead at British hands) seperately!"
415 infidelia  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:18:50pm

re: #393 esch

Well, I'm hosed. I really liked New Coke.

Do most bodegas here in the States carry Mexican Coca-Cola?

416 jcm  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:08pm

re: #413 Walter L. Newton

As a keyboard player, I really dig the guy in shorts. Ah, I mean, as his performer persona.

Glad you added the disclaimer.... I was beginning to wonder....

417 Mathew1977  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:26pm

re: #391 Slumbering Behemoth

It also keeps me from thinking I'm all morally superior and stuff.

That's an interesting theory. Could you provide some evidence that you don't think that?

For bonus points, use the following criteria:

1. Define the question
2. Gather information and resources (observe)
3. Form hypothesis
4. Perform experiment and collect data
5. Analyze data
6. Interpret data and draw conclusions that serve as a starting point for new hypothesis
7. Publish results
8. Retest (frequently done by other scientists)

For extra

418 MandyManners  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:29pm

re: #368 goddessoftheclassroom

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, it's not so easy for me.

(This is going to get soppy; you have been warned)

The past year has been particularly crummy for me, and LGF has been a haven of friends and support. I should simply avoid these threads because I can't laugh off what I feel to be attacks on my faith, but the camaraderie and discussions have been so important to me.

What bothers me is that some Lizards don't even seem to care ho much they hurt others as long as they can make their points, and that's the atmosphere that dismays me.

Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads, but I have enough disappointment and hurt in real life without having to face it here.

I see what you're saying, and I hope we're thinking that both sides of the debate do this...not just those who do not believe that God created the heavens and the earth.

419 BignJames  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:38pm

re: #402 buzzsawmonkey

Where is/what happened to Mama W?

420 A Kiwi Infidel  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:39pm

re: #405 Mich-again

Interesting no?yes!

and so true

421 Reno911  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:48pm

re: #392 paradox42

What? Of course each side has validity. The are Free to believe as they wish.

Children of crack heads? If you are concerned about their education prospects, I suggest you adopt one.

I don't mean to offend you, but have you read any of the foundational documents of this nation?

422 Big Steve  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:19:56pm

re: #377 wolfie

I have a strong suspicion that you don't know a damn thing about "2000 years of catholic history."
Even the medieval church sponsored scientific research.

wrong and for point two, such as.....

423 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:01pm
424 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:03pm

re: #329 lawhawk


The capacity for mischief is serious and real. And the people who will suffer most are the children whose educations will suffer as a result of time wasted trying to deal with this. Time and money, that is - as the issue will raise lawsuits and drain budgets.

I agree with you 100%, but would just like to point out that it wont just be the children that suffer if this is allowed to continue.

People my age will also suffer as we begin to grow older and these children become our future doctors, lawyers, statesmen, etc.

The DI's agenda is clearly a threat to young minds, but it is also a threat to the survival of our nation.

425 esch  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:04pm

re: #415 infidelia

Do most bodegas here in the States carry Mexican Coca-Cola?

I can get it, and I do prefer it over the corn syrup Coke. But I did like the 'New' coke formula even better.

426 goddessoftheclassroom  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:12pm

Okay, now I am going for the evening, I have had it.

My thanks to those of you who have tried to keep things civil, but there are some comments that I just can't deal with.

427 WrathofG-d  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:20:42pm
428 DistantThunder  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:21:07pm

re: #368 goddessoftheclassroom

Intellectually, I know you're right. Emotionally, it's not so easy for me.

(This is going to get soppy; you have been warned)

The past year has been particularly crummy for me, and LGF has been a haven of friends and support. I should simply avoid these threads because I can't laugh off what I feel to be attacks on my faith, but the camaraderie and discussions have been so important to me.

What bothers me is that some Lizards don't even seem to care ho much they hurt others as long as they can make their points, and that's the atmosphere that dismays me.

Yes, I know I need thicker skin, to grow a spine, argue with logic, GAZE, or go back to earlier threads, but I have enough disappointment and hurt in real life without having to face it here.

Goddess - it's understandable. It also provides a great opportunity to learn to stay engaged rather than being avoidant which is a natural tendency. It is a sign of emotional maturity that you are able to do so. Liberals have a very hard time, understanding or tolerating opposing views - their heads tend to explode or spin around. That is why we are superior: we can examine, and then stay engaged in the discourse.

429 reine.de.tout  Wed, Jul 16, 2008 7:21:16pm

re: #408 Big Steve

bless you.....no more arguments I promise.

LOL!
I went back and re-read the comment that I accused you of trying to start an argument, and I think I was off-base thinking that. Just on first reading it struck me as arg