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New Yorker: Darwin's Surprise

Sun, Jul 20, 2008 at 5:19:10 pm PDT

Here’s a mind-expanding article by Michael Specter that appeared in The New Yorker last December, on a discovery about the way viruses infiltrate human cells and affect the coding of human DNA. The Human Genome Project has shown that our DNA contains many traces of extinct retroviruses that copied themselves into the human genetic code, but were then expelled, destroyed, or altered through the process of evolution.

And some of these extinct viruses are now being resurrected in the laboratory by evolutionary biologist Thierry Heidmann of the Institut Gustave Roussy: Darwin’s Surprise.

Nothing—not even the Plague—has posed a more persistent threat to humanity than viral diseases: yellow fever, measles, and smallpox have been causing epidemics for thousands of years. At the end of the First World War, fifty million people died of the Spanish flu; smallpox may have killed half a billion during the twentieth century alone. Those viruses were highly infectious, yet their impact was limited by their ferocity: a virus may destroy an entire culture, but if we die it dies, too. As a result, not even smallpox possessed the evolutionary power to influence humans as a species—to alter our genetic structure. That would require an organism to insinuate itself into the critical cells we need in order to reproduce: our germ cells. Only retroviruses, which reverse the usual flow of genetic code from DNA to RNA, are capable of that. A retrovirus stores its genetic information in a single-stranded molecule of RNA, instead of the more common double-stranded DNA. When it infects a cell, the virus deploys a special enzyme, called reverse transcriptase, that enables it to copy itself and then paste its own genes into the new cell’s DNA. It then becomes part of that cell forever; when the cell divides, the virus goes with it. Scientists have long suspected that if a retrovirus happens to infect a human sperm cell or egg, which is rare, and if that embryo survives—which is rarer still—the retrovirus could take its place in the blueprint of our species, passed from mother to child, and from one generation to the next, much like a gene for eye color or asthma.

When the sequence of the human genome was fully mapped, in 2003, researchers also discovered something they had not anticipated: our bodies are littered with the shards of such retroviruses, fragments of the chemical code from which all genetic material is made. It takes less than two per cent of our genome to create all the proteins necessary for us to live. Eight per cent, however, is composed of broken and disabled retroviruses, which, millions of years ago, managed to embed themselves in the DNA of our ancestors. They are called endogenous retroviruses, because once they infect the DNA of a species they become part of that species. One by one, though, after molecular battles that raged for thousands of generations, they have been defeated by evolution. Like dinosaur bones, these viral fragments are fossils. Instead of having been buried in sand, they reside within each of us, carrying a record that goes back millions of years. Because they no longer seem to serve a purpose or cause harm, these remnants have often been referred to as “junk DNA.” Many still manage to generate proteins, but scientists have never found one that functions properly in humans or that could make us sick.

Then, last year, Thierry Heidmann brought one back to life. Combining the tools of genomics, virology, and evolutionary biology, he and his colleagues took a virus that had been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years, figured out how the broken parts were originally aligned, and then pieced them together. After resurrecting the virus, the team placed it in human cells and found that their creation did indeed insert itself into the DNA of those cells. They also mixed the virus with cells taken from hamsters and cats. It quickly infected them all, offering the first evidence that the broken parts could once again be made infectious. The experiment could provide vital clues about how viruses like H.I.V. work. Inevitably, though, it also conjures images of Frankenstein’s monster and Jurassic Park.

Read the whole thing. It’s a bit on the technical side but not overly so, and the Frankenstein angle is explored further.

(Hat tip: LGF readers.)

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279 comments

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1 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:20:42pm

This is a terrific article.

2 Big Boots that's boots[deleted]  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:21:08pm
3 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:21:24pm
And some of these extinct viruses are now being resurrected

Ummmm, should they be doing that?

4 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:21:54pm

It quickly infected them all, offering the first evidence that the broken parts could once again be made infectious.

I would be worried, except that the Hadron Supercollider will kill us all before that supervirus does...

/

5 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:22:02pm

re: #2 Big Boots that's boots

I'm first! hello everyone!

1. No, you're not.
2. Those who announce "first" have that post deleted here.

6 Big Boots that's BOOTS  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:22:21pm

I'm on a mac - doesn't that count?

7 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:22:52pm

Why would god design the body this way?

8 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:23:50pm

re: #6 Big Boots that's BOOTS

I'm on a mac - doesn't that count?

We all know Mac is a higher form.

9 EC Marm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:23:59pm

Someone types pretty fast for having eye troubles.

10 jefffrombuffalo[deleted]  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:24:57pm
11 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:25:40pm

re: #7 DeathtotheSwiss

Why would god design the body this way?

Speaking from a scriptural stand point, the fall got in the way. When man turned away from God, the body began to decay. Disease and death are a result of man's fall, not God's design.

12 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:26:06pm

re: #10 jefffrombuffalo

After reading for nearly 3 years. You are off my RSS feed.

You were my favorite blog until about a month ago.

I'll check back again, but this evolution stuff has really turned me off.

And yes this is a new account, I had one before... I have certainly enjoyed the site... Good-bye for now.

So . . . you went through all the trouble to register, just so you could blow us off?

13 EC Marm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:26:09pm

re: #10 jefffrombuffalo
Damn, you got in (and out) before Killgore could predict it.

14 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:26:22pm

re: #10 jefffrombuffalo

After reading for nearly 3 years. You are off my RSS feed.

You were my favorite blog until about a month ago.

I'll check back again, but this evolution stuff has really turned me off.

And yes this is a new account, I had one before... I have certainly enjoyed the site... Good-bye for now.

Whooopeedeee do!

jefffrombuffalo
Registered since: Jul 5, 2008 at 1:54 pm
No. of comments posted: 4
No. of links posted: 0

15 garycooper  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:26:28pm

Careful with that stuff, boys!

Fascinating article, from the excerpt alone. Will read the whole thing, and try to comprehend the implications to my evolving theory of "Design By Malicious-Minded Space Machines."

16 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:26:38pm

re: #7 DeathtotheSwiss

Why would god design the body this way?

As Robin Williams said, God smokes weed.
That 'splains the platypus.

17 Charles  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:26:47pm

Learned the hard way to just block those people right away. Bye now.

18 jcw46  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:27:01pm

re: #3 Crimsonfisted

Ummmm, should they be doing that?

My sentiments exactly. Who is monitoring the isolation protocols used for this research? This reminds of the folks that wanted to resurrect the smallpox virus from the early 20th century (1918's I think; I don't know if they succeeded). I can understand the desire to research this stuff but does the information gained outweigh the danger?

19 jcw46  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:28:14pm

re: #18 jcw46

Sorry CORRECTION; the flu virus that wiped out about 18 million people.

20 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:28:42pm

re: #18 jcw46

My sentiments exactly. Who is monitoring the isolation protocols used for this research? This reminds of the folks that wanted to resurrect the smallpox virus from the early 20th century (1918's I think; I don't know if they succeeded). I can understand the desire to research this stuff but does the information gained outweigh the danger?

The risk to the many outweighs the desire of the few ... or the one.

21 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:29:27pm

re: #18 jcw46

My sentiments exactly. Who is monitoring the isolation protocols used for this research? This reminds of the folks that wanted to resurrect the smallpox virus from the early 20th century (1918's I think; I don't know if they succeeded). I can understand the desire to research this stuff but does the information gained outweigh the danger?

I remember an article that described exhuming a victim of the Spanish Flu epidemic from the tundra.

22 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:29:44pm

re: #17 Charles

Learned the hard way to just block those people right away. Bye now.

And here I was always told that learning was supposed to be FUNdamental.

Amazing how some people can be so distressed by differing opinions about things.

Charles, even when I don't exactly agree with the subject being posted, I am enlightened and entertained by the material. Thank you so much for education.

23 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:31:04pm

re: #16 Hard Right

As Robin Williams said, God smokes weed.
That 'splains the platypus.

Did someone say platypus?

24 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:31:11pm

Wow. That is amazing stuff.

This mentions that HIV is a "retrovirus", like the ones whose remnants they found.

Does that mean it might be possible, one day, if HIV acts like these others, it will no longer be a killer?

I guess it could also provide a clue how to defeat HIV.

25 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:31:24pm
All of these researchers hope that excavating the molecular past will help address the medical complexities that we confront today. Almost incidentally, they have created a new discipline, paleovirology, which seeks to better understand the impact of modern diseases by studying the genetic history of ancient viruses.

“This is something not to fear but to celebrate,’’ Heidmann told me one day as we sat in his office at the institute, which is dedicated to the treatment and eradication of cancer.


But science leads to killing people!
/Ben Stein.

26 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:31:35pm
Nothing—not even the Plague—has posed a more persistent threat to humanity than viral diseases.

I'm not disagreeing, but I just want to add mosquitos have not been our friends.

27 Carridine  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:31:55pm

A segment of retro-viral 'junk' DNA between Segments One and Three, above, with Annotation at Segment #17, above.

28 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:32:24pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

I'm not disagreeing, but I just want to add mosquitos have not been our friends.

They carry viruses (West Nile being the biggie now)

29 FurryOldGuyJeans  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:33:08pm

re: #21 goddessoftheclassroom

I remember an article that described exhuming a victim of the Spanish Flu epidemic from the tundra.

I saw an excellent documentary on DVD that in part explained in great detail why the exhumation was being conducted. To retrieve genetic markers of the virus to see what made it so virulent so as to make any current vaccine more effective in reducing the effects of a pandemic. Scary stuff when you realize that more people died from the influenza pandemic than died in WWI overall.

30 jcw46  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:33:23pm

re: #21 goddessoftheclassroom

I remember an article that described exhuming a victim of the Spanish Flu epidemic from the tundra.

Yeah. My bad; I noted the correction as fast as possible.

Who makes these decisions and why don't the rest of us at least get a heads up beforehand? We only know that the Collider is going into operations cause it's too Frakkin' large to hide. I'm not anti-research, I just don't want to put my trust in folks who have no self-restraint to protect us from their projects.

31 BignJames  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:33:55pm

re: #25 Killgore Trout

But science leads to killing people more efficiently!
/Ben Stein.

Fixed that for Ben.

32 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:34:05pm
The experiment could provide vital clues about how viruses like H.I.V. work.


So who, or what, resurrected this ancient virus?

33 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:35:01pm

re: #32 Crimsonfisted

So who, or what, resurrected this ancient virus?

That dude that keeps resurrecting mummies. ;P

34 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:35:06pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

I'm not disagreeing, but I just want to add mosquitos have not been our friends.

Rachel Carson has not either. Judicious use of DDT would have saved millions of lives the last 40 years.

35 jcw46  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:35:09pm

re: #24 reine.de.tout

Wow. That is amazing stuff.

This mentions that HIV is a "retrovirus", like the ones whose remnants they found.

Does that mean it might be possible, one day, if HIV acts like these others, it will no longer be a killer?

I guess it could also provide a clue how to defeat HIV.

Weren't they rendered harmless by the changing of the cells they invade?

36 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:35:22pm
The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

I'd be interested to hear how the ID types would explain this.

37 LesLein  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:35:31pm

Off topic, but the messiah plans to amend the Constitution:

"Today on CBS's Face the Nation, Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., in Afghanistan, told the paparazzi-pursued correspondent Lara Logan that "the objective of this trip was to have substantive discussions with people like President Karzai or Prime Minister Maliki or President Sarkozy or others who I expect to be dealing with over the next eight to 10 years."

[Link: blogs.abcnews.com...]

Captain Ed catches deficient history regarding Obama's selection of a Berlin site for his speech:

"Not only does the site contain a monument to Prussian victories over other American allies in Europe, its placement was decided by Adolf Hitler — in order to impress crowds in his idealized version of Berlin called Germania ..."

38 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:35:55pm

re: #11 jcm

Speaking from a scriptural stand point, the fall got in the way. When man turned away from God, the body began to decay. Disease and death are a result of man's fall, not God's design.

And how is that explained, beyond a statement of supposed fact?

Was it a deliberate "bomb"inserted in the system in case anyone did the wrong thing, so it would cause pain, suffering and death, or was it a result of withdrawal from monitoring and intelligently manipulating a complex system from time to time so as to keep it from reverting to an uncontrolled self adjusting system via, perhaps, what we call evolution?

39 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:36:02pm

re: #36 Cicero05

I'd be interested to hear how the ID types would explain this.

They'd find a way.

40 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:36:59pm

re: #33 Hard Right

That dude that keeps resurrecting mummies. ;P

Brendan Fraser has a LOT to answer for then.

41 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:38:03pm

re: #40 Crimsonfisted

Brendan Fraser has a LOT to answer for then.

Well, after he was thawed out (Encino Man) he decided that everyone else deserved a second shot at life, too.

42 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:39:14pm
Heidmann and others have suggested that without endogenous retroviruses mammals might never have developed a placenta, which protects the fetus and gives it time to mature. That led to live birth, one of the hallmarks of our evolutionary success over birds, reptiles, and fish. Eggs cannot eliminate waste or draw the maternal nutrients required to develop the large brains that have made mammals so versatile. “These viruses made those changes possible,’’ Heidmann told me. “It is quite possible that, without them, human beings would still be laying eggs.”

Wow- that's fascinating.

43 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:39:16pm

re: #41 JamesTKirk

Well, after he was thawed out (Encino Man) he decided that everyone else deserved a second shot at life, too.

He's wrong about Pauley Shore deserving one.

44 jcw46  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:39:19pm

Hmmm. Could these retroviruses be the triggers for genetic changes that manifest themselves in other ways. One of the difficulties I have with evolutionary theory is HOW are mutations triggered in such a way that does not damage all of the cells and thus cause massive mutation in multiple systems and cause death or sterility.

45 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:39:40pm

re: #40 Crimsonfisted

Brendan Fraser has a LOT to answer for then.

Word! That dude is the enemy.

46 allanthered  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:39:49pm

Charles did the Intelligent Design folks question your choice in music or what?

We've got BHO in Afghanistan the press falling all over themselves to make him the second coming and your keep pushing this stuff.

47 Carridine  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:40:18pm

re: #36 Cicero05

I'd be interested to hear how the ID types would explain this.

No, you wouldn't, because its the SAME explanation as for every other piece of objective, scientific proof: "God CREATED THE ANOMALY with all its associated paradoxes and 'seeming' age, instantaneously, to TEST HUMAN FAITH!"

/It gets old, Cicero, but NOT TOO OLD for the Creationists!

48 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:40:32pm

re: #45 opnion

Word! That dude is the enemy.

The only good mummy...

49 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:40:49pm

re: #28 reine.de.tout

They carry viruses (West Nile being the biggie now)

Yes- they are responsible for a lot of pain, suffering and death.

50 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:41:37pm

re: #48 Hard Right

The only good mummy...


Just the first, not the sequel

51 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:42:00pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

Yes- they are responsible for a lot of pain, suffering and death.

Ever notice how democrat and mosquito can be used interchangeably?

52 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:42:03pm

re: #46 allanthered

Charles did the Intelligent Design folks question your choice in music or what?

We've got BHO in Afghanistan the press falling all over themselves to make him the second coming and your keep pushing this stuff.

I found the article about BHO avoiding all foreign media (since they might actually ask him a real question) interesting.

53 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:42:36pm

re: #44 jcw46

Hmmm. Could these retroviruses be the triggers for genetic changes that manifest themselves in other ways. One of the difficulties I have with evolutionary theory is HOW are mutations triggered in such a way that does not damage all of the cells and thus cause massive mutation in multiple systems and cause death or sterility.

Have you not answered your own question? Such mutations undoubtedly do occur, but due to premature death or sterility, they do not propagate.

It is worth considering that something like 50%+ of all pregnancies in humans, and probably in all mammals at least, are spontaneously aborted very early.

54 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:42:52pm

re: #47 Carridine

No, you wouldn't, because its the SAME explanation as for every other piece of objective, scientific proof: "God CREATED THE ANOMALY with all its associated paradoxes and 'seeming' age, instantaneously, to TEST HUMAN FAITH!"

/It gets old, Cicero, but NOT TOO OLD for the Creationists!

Of course it's not too old for them, since it's only been around for 6000 years. For us, though, that line is as old as the dinosaurs...

55 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:43:18pm

re: #50 opnion

Just the first, not the sequel

I meant the only good mummy is a dead mummy, but you are still correct.

56 snowcrash  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:44:30pm

Fascinating article, science wasn't difficult but it was long. Creationists are not going to like the idea of viruses being the unseen creator. Going to get ugly here if they read the link.

57 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:45:19pm

re: #55 Hard Right

I meant the only good mummy is a dead mummy, but you are still correct.


Ah hah! Right over my head. Oh man, I hope this does not mean that I am going to screw up & vote for Obama.

58 Luigi  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:45:21pm

The article's not as funny as their covers.

59 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:47:55pm

re: #57 opnion

Ah hah! Right over my head. Oh man, I hope this does not mean that I am going to screw up & vote for Obama.

You're safe unless you're a Floridian.
/

60 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:48:07pm

re: #44 jcw46

The article talks about that....

Heidmann and others have suggested that without endogenous retroviruses mammals might never have developed a placenta, which protects the fetus and gives it time to mature. That led to live birth, one of the hallmarks of our evolutionary success over birds, reptiles, and fish. Eggs cannot eliminate waste or draw the maternal nutrients required to develop the large brains that have made mammals so versatile. “These viruses made those changes possible,’’ Heidmann told me. “It is quite possible that, without them, human beings would still be laying eggs.”
61 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:49:33pm

re: #59 Hard Right

You're safe unless you're a Floridian.
/

HEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYYYYYYY! :)

Not all of us!

62 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:49:42pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

The article talks about that....
Heidmann and others have suggested that without endogenous retroviruses mammals might never have developed a placenta, which protects the fetus and gives it time to mature. That led to live birth, one of the hallmarks of our evolutionary success over birds, reptiles, and fish. Eggs cannot eliminate waste or draw the maternal nutrients required to develop the large brains that have made mammals so versatile. “These viruses made those changes possible,’’ Heidmann told me. “It is quite possible that, without them, human beings would still be laying eggs.

In that case it would be true what people say about me. I wasn't born, I was hatched.

63 PSGInfinity  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:49:48pm

Well, that explains why I've been feeling like a zombie lately...

64 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:50:42pm

re: #38 Naso Tang

And how is that explained, beyond a statement of supposed fact?

Was it a deliberate "bomb"inserted in the system in case anyone did the wrong thing, so it would cause pain, suffering and death, or was it a result of withdrawal from monitoring and intelligently manipulating a complex system from time to time so as to keep it from reverting to an uncontrolled self adjusting system via, perhaps, what we call evolution?

Not making any scientific statement at all. The question was why God would make a flawed human being.

The premiss of the question, asking "why God" immediately removed it from the physical realm.

I answered from the only way a "why God" question can be answered.

In scripture man's choice to leave God and many repercussions.

65 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:50:59pm
Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

I first read this article thanks to Salamantis, and since then I've joined him occasionally in asking people to explain retroviral DNA. This quote above pretty much settled any questions I had before these threads.

66 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:51:04pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

The article talks about that....



“It is quite possible that, without them, human beings would still be laying eggs.”

Which is kind of a silly statement, since then humans would not be humans. Perhaps he meant they would then not exist?

67 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:51:53pm

re: #66 Naso Tang


“It is quite possible that, without them, human beings would still be laying eggs.”

Which is kind of a silly statement, since then humans would not be humans. Perhaps he meant they would then not exist?

Platypus.

68 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:52:04pm

re: #66 Naso Tang


“It is quite possible that, without them, human beings would still be laying eggs.”

Which is kind of a silly statement, since then humans would not be humans. Perhaps he meant they would then not exist?

Which came first, the human or the egg?

/

69 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:52:28pm

re: #67 Hard Right

Platypus.

Did someone say platypus?

70 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:52:35pm

re: #59 Hard Right

You're safe unless you're a Floridian.
/


Yes, but the hanging chad will reveal my original intent.
Honest, Al Gore with Brokaw this morning is still claiming that he was actually elected.

71 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:52:49pm

re: #68 JamesTKirk

Which came first, the human or the egg?

/

The male! (rimshot)

72 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:52:59pm

re: #56 snowcrash

Fascinating article, science wasn't difficult but it was long. Creationists are not going to like the idea of viruses being the unseen creator. Going to get ugly here if they read the link.

Oops- and there I go quoting. ;)

73 Ford_Prefect  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:54:05pm
Nothing—not even the Plague—has posed a more persistent threat to humanity than viral diseases

I don't know, it seems to me that nothing has been a more persistent threat to humanity then humans themselves.

74 Charles  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:54:06pm

re: #46 allanthered

We've got BHO in Afghanistan the press falling all over themselves to make him the second coming and your keep pushing this stuff.

Just can't get interested in the dog and pony show, I admit it. What, you're not already getting enough coverage of it in the mainstream media?

75 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:54:14pm

re: #72 Sharmuta

Oops- and there I go quoting. ;)

So people can be an agent of God, but retroviruses can't? Does God not work in mysterious ways?

76 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:54:41pm

re: #73 Ford_Prefect

I don't know, it seems to me that nothing has been a more persistent threat to humanity then humans themselves.

Communism killed more people than smallpox or bubonic plague.

77 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:55:52pm

re: #73 Ford_Prefect

I don't know, it seems to me that nothing has been a more persistent threat to humanity then humans themselves.

Mosquitos.

78 Ford_Prefect  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:56:24pm

re: #76 JamesTKirk

Communism killed more people than smallpox or bubonic plague.

Nazism has to be right there, too.

79 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:56:56pm
80 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:57:00pm

re: #77 Sharmuta

Mosquitos.

They don't kill people themselves, they merely act as a vector for viruses.

81 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:57:20pm

re: #64 jcm

Not making any scientific statement at all. The question was why God would make a flawed human being.

The premiss of the question, asking "why God" immediately removed it from the physical realm.

I answered from the only way a "why God" question can be answered.

In scripture man's choice to leave God and many repercussions.

I appreciate that.

My point was the original statement is unanswered and explains nothing. It appears to start with a physical realm explanation for what appears to be the reality, and then leaves the reasons to as many repercussions as one's imagination allows.

82 Ford_Prefect  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:57:26pm

re: #79 buzzsawmonkey

That brings you right back to leftists, since their lobbying against DDT has permitted the malarial mosquito to flourish.

See, human interference again.

83 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:57:27pm

re: #78 Ford_Prefect

re: #76 JamesTKirk

Communism killed more people than smallpox or bubonic plague.

Nazism has to be right there, too.

Distant second.

84 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:58:15pm

re: #67 Hard Right

Platypus.

Quite right. "We" would be platypussys.

85 Alouette  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:58:29pm

re: #76 JamesTKirk

Communism killed more people than smallpox or bubonic plague.

Environmentalism: how many have died of insect-borne diseases since DDT was banned? Rachel Carson killed more people than Stalin.

86 DocMartyn  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:58:54pm

Someone posted this link earlier, but it is worth a look.
I like mice as they are good Parkinson's models, but the degree of shared genetics was a bit of a shock when the first draft of the two genomes were published.

Another point for our ISer's is this piece:-

[Link: www.evolutionpages.com...]

look at the Tryptophan condon, UGG, Tryptophan (Trp,W) is an aromatic amino acid, as are tyrosine (Tyr,Y) and Phenylalinine (Phe,F).
Now in lots of proteins, especially membrane bound ones at the lipidhead/tail interface, there is a requirement for an aromatic amino acids.
You can flip between Try and Phe, with a single base change, so you often get YtoF or FtoY very often. However, to to a YtoW or a FtoW, you have to do a dogleg. This does happen, you can see a condon change in related organisms:-
UGG (W, aromatic, good) -> UUG (L, hydrophobic, sub-optimal) ->UUU(F,aromatic, good) .

The actual coding also shows that Arginine and Tryptophan are late additions to the chemistry set, and the very early DNA or RNA based replicants had a simpler coding sequence (two codons and a space), and fewer, simpler amino acids.

87 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 5:59:43pm

re: #86 DocMartyn

The actual coding also shows that Arginine and Tryptophan are late additions to the chemistry set, and the very early DNA or RNA based replicants had a simpler coding sequence (two codons and a space), and fewer, simpler amino acids.

We started in binary then converted to base four.

88 Ford_Prefect  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:00:44pm

re: #85 Alouette

Even this whole situation of people reviving long dead viruses. Why? Human tampering. Can only lead to a bad end.

89 wolfie  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:01:08pm

re: #79 buzzsawmonkey

That brings you right back to leftists, since their lobbying against DDT has permitted the malarial mosquito to flourish.

The lives of millions of Third World peasants are not as important as the self-righteous satisfaction of Western elites.

90 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:01:15pm

re: #88 Ford_Prefect

It's not as spooky as it sounds.

91 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:01:33pm

re: #84 Naso Tang

Quite right. "We" would be platypussys.

Or is it platypi?
Goose, geese? Moose, meese? (my head hurts)

92 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:01:34pm

re: #68 JamesTKirk

Which came first, the human or the egg?

/

I'm not sure if this is a serious question or not, / notwithstanding.

Humans actually start as eggs. They just hatch internally. That evolutionary modification is a lot easier to conceptualize than, say, an eye evolving; I think.

93 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:01:36pm

re: #83 JamesTKirk

Distant second.

Right, Communism had a much longer run . The evil U.S took down the Nazis

94 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:02:46pm

re: #89 wolfie

The lives of millions of Third World peasants are not as important as the self-righteous satisfaction of Western elites.

Satisfaction based soley in the action, but not it's result. The result is that which they will forever remain deliberately blind to.

95 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:02:50pm

re: #76 JamesTKirk

Communism killed more people than smallpox or bubonic plague.

I think you are very very wrong there. Since you make the statement, would you care to give us the numbers?

96 stevieray  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:03:14pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

If we came from eggs, we'd have no belly button.

Without a belly button, where would millions of radical individualists put their piercing to show how unique they are?!

In fact, Seattle would become practically indistinguishable from Peoria!

/the horror... the horror

97 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:04:18pm

re: #91 Hard Right

Or is it platypi?
Goose, geese? Moose, meese? (my head hurts)

I was thinking more along the lines of a 007 film, but we digress.

98 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:04:30pm

re: #81 Naso Tang

I appreciate that.

My point was the original statement is unanswered and explains nothing. It appears to start with a physical realm explanation for what appears to be the reality, and then leaves the reasons to as many repercussions as one's imagination allows.

The original question:
Why would god design the body this way?

Has no physical realm aspect to it. I answered from a Christian Scriptural perspective, other faiths may have a different answer.

I think I answered in the only way possible, you cannot ask "Why God" and get a physical realm answer.

That is the primary flaw in the thinking that has caused so much angst 'round here. Pushing the metaphysical into the physical.

99 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:04:36pm

re: #96 stevieray

If we came from eggs, we'd have no belly button.

Without a belly button, where would millions of radical individualists put their piercing to show how unique they are?!

In fact, Seattle would become practically indistinguishable from Peoria!

/the horror... the horror


Peoria is the 3,810th holy site in Islam!

100 Josephine  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:05:02pm

re: #48 Hard Right

The only good mummy...

I've got an excellent book about mummies: The Mummy Congress; Science, Obsession, and the Everlasting Dead.

101 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:05:29pm

re: #96 stevieray

If we came from eggs, we'd have no belly button.

Without a belly button, where would millions of radical individualists put their piercing to show how unique they are?!

In fact, Seattle would become practically indistinguishable from Peoria!

/the horror... the horror

Reminds me of the mini-truckers in the early 90's. You know, the people with the lowered 4x2 truck with nothing but subwoofers for an audio system?
No lie, they thought they were different or individuals despite the fact that there were millions of them.

102 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:05:47pm
103 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:06:12pm

re: #97 Naso Tang

I was thinking more along the lines of a 007 film, but we digress.

DOH! Missed that one.

104 wolfie  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:06:28pm

re: #94 Hard Right

Satisfaction based soley in the action, but not it's result. The result is that which they will forever remain deliberately blind to.

Concrete results are irrelevant to the left. What matters are intentions, disposition, and f-e-e-l-i-n-g-s, no?
Besides, the results happen to other people.
And it's all about the lefties themselves.

105 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:07:54pm

re: #102 buzzsawmonkey

DNA, Boys
--with apologies to "Danny Boy"

Oh, DNA--boys, the double helix is calling
Male or female, it works from either side
Combined in ways some sublime, some appalling
And on its spirals all Earth life must ride
Though some attack the knowledge of its workings
That we have gleaned through science progress slow
Yet still 'tis there, its duties never shirking
And someday we may better still its process know.

Have you been able to do this all your life?

106 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:07:55pm

re: #104 wolfie

Concrete results are irrelevant to the left. What matters are intentions, disposition, and f-e-e-l-i-n-g-s, no?
Besides, the results happen to other people.
And it's all about the lefties themselves.

The "selfless" narcissist personified.

107 JamesTKirk  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:08:03pm

re: #95 Naso Tang

I think you are very very wrong there. Since you make the statement, would you care to give us the numbers?

When the Black Death decimated Europe several centuries ago, the worst natural disaster in history, it killed about 200,000 people. That was a third of the population then.

However, there are a lot more people in the world today, and a number like 200,000 is peanuts to men like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.

108 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:08:20pm
109 Dianna  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:08:46pm

re: #76 JamesTKirk

No, I'm afraid you have that wrong. Taking The Black Book of Communism's 125 million as the conservative estimate, bubonic plague definitely makes communism look like a piker.

110 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:08:55pm

re: #108 buzzsawmonkey

Pretty much.

It's a great gift!

All I can do is wiggle my ears. . .

111 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:10:08pm

re: #98 jcm

The original question:
Why would god design the body this way?

Has no physical realm aspect to it. I answered from a Christian Scriptural perspective, other faiths may have a different answer.

I may have missed an earlier post to the one I responded to, where the scriptural answer was that the "flaws" are due to the "fall". However to the best of my knowledge the "bodies" before the "fall" were the same as after, which still begs the question as to whether the flaws were inserted after, or if they were simply no longer controlled.

112 Josephine  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:10:26pm

Researchers think that Type 1 Diabetes and Celiac Disease (both genetic conditions) might be triggered by a virus.

113 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:10:38pm

re: #109 Dianna

No, I'm afraid you have that wrong. Taking The Black Book of Communism's 125 million as the conservative estimate, bubonic plague definitely makes communism look like a piker.


Yeah, but the point is Communism actually outdid the Nazis.
Only because the had more time. Liberals really like them.

114 Ford_Prefect  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:11:05pm

re: #110 reine.de.tout

It's a great gift!

All I can do is wiggle my ears. . .

I can touch the tip of my nose with my tongue....or is that too much information?

115 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:11:44pm

re: #114 Ford_Prefect

I can touch the tip of my nose with my tongue....or is that too much information?

Yes

116 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:12:22pm

re: #115 opnion

Yes

Good way to meet women at bars tho.

117 Ford_Prefect  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:13:02pm

re: #116 Hard Right

Good way to meet women at bars tho.

;)

118 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:13:46pm

re: #117 Ford_Prefect

;)

My lifelong dream is to be able to lick my eyebrows.

119 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:14:21pm

re: #116 Hard Right

Good way to meet women at bars tho.


Now that , I can imagine. "Hi baby, buy you a drink?"
then smooth your eyebrows with your tongue. Can't miss!

120 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:15:06pm

re: #118 Hard Right

My lifelong dream is to be able to lick my eyebrows.


Dang! You beat me.

121 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:15:11pm

re: #107 JamesTKirk

When the Black Death decimated Europe several centuries ago, the worst natural disaster in history, it killed about 200,000 people. That was a third of the population then.

However, there are a lot more people in the world today, and a number like 200,000 is peanuts to men like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.

I don't know what pulpit you get your numbers from, but a simple 20 second search gives multiple results along these lines.

The pandemic is thought to have begun in Central Asia or India and spread to Europe during the 1340s.[2][3] The total number of deaths worldwide is estimated at 75 million people;[4] approximately 25-50 million of which occurred in Europe.[5][6][7] The Black Death is estimated to have killed 30% to 60% of Europe's population.[8][9][10] It may have reduced the world's population from an estimated 450 million to between 350 and 375 million in 1400.[11]

And we haven't started on smallpox yet.

122 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:15:15pm

re: #119 opnion

Now that , I can imagine. "Hi baby, buy you a drink?"
then smooth your eyebrows with your tongue. Can't miss!

You read my mind. Light reading, but you read it.

123 Ford_Prefect  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:15:17pm

re: #118 Hard Right

My lifelong dream is to be able to lick my eyebrows.

If I get my Uncles eyebrows eyebrow as I get older, that just might happen.

124 doriangrey  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:15:50pm

re: #119 opnion

Now that , I can imagine. "Hi baby, buy you a drink?"
then smooth your eyebrows with your tongue. Can't miss!

Works for me... er I meant Gene Simons.....

125 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:15:58pm

re: #123 Ford_Prefect

If I get my Uncles eyebrows eyebrow as I get older, that just might happen.

Andy Rooney syndrome.

126 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:16:26pm
Chimpanzees are easily infected by the AIDS virus, but it never makes them sick. That has remained one of the most frustrating mysteries of the epidemic. How did nearly identical genetic relatives become immune to a virus that attacks us with such vigor? The most dramatic difference between the chimp genome and ours is that chimps have roughly a hundred and thirty copies of a virus called Pan troglodytes endogenous retrovirus, which scientists refer to by the acronym PtERV (pronounced “pea-terv”). Gorillas have eighty copies. Humans have none.

“We can see that PtERV infected gorillas and chimps four million years ago,’’ Emerman told me. “But there was never any trace of its infecting humans.” It is possible that all infected humans died, but it is far more likely that we developed a way to repel the virus. Nobody knew why until Emerman, Malik, and Shari Kaiser, a graduate student in Emerman’s lab, presented evidence for a startling theory: the evolutionary process that protects us from PtERV may be the central reason we are vulnerable to H.I.V.

I think people who are turning their noses up at these threads are really missing out on some amazing stuff- this article especially.

127 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:16:40pm

re: #124 doriangrey

Works for me... er I meant Gene Simons.....

I'm having Family Guy images pop into my head.

128 Ford_Prefect  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:16:52pm

re: #125 Hard Right

Andy Rooney syndrome.

Yeah, something like that.

129 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:17:14pm

re: #125 Hard Right

Andy Rooney syndrome.


'Ever wonder why, he's still on TV?"

130 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:17:51pm

re: #114 Ford_Prefect

I can touch the tip of my nose with my tongue....or is that too much information?

Can you roll it up on the sides at the same time? Now that is a genetically inherited trait, but what evolutionary benefit it has beats me.

(I can do the roll, but not the tippy tip bit)

131 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:18:13pm

re: #129 opnion

'Ever wonder why, he's still on TV?"

He is? I haven't watched in years.

132 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:18:54pm

re: #111 Naso Tang

I may have missed an earlier post to the one I responded to, where the scriptural answer was that the "flaws" are due to the "fall". However to the best of my knowledge the "bodies" before the "fall" were the same as after, which still begs the question as to whether the flaws were inserted after, or if they were simply no longer controlled.

Death was not present before the fall, nor disease, child birth was free of complications and pain. A lot changed, wether from lack of maintenance or a real change, I can't say. I believe there was a change, but a lack of control would have the same result.

133 BignJames  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:19:06pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

Chimps are susceptible to polio too....don't know about gorillas.

134 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:19:23pm

re: #131 Hard Right

He is? I haven't watched in years.

Don't, save yourself!

135 Josephine  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:19:28pm

re: #91 Hard Right

Or is it platypi?
Goose, geese? Moose, meese? (my head hurts)

Spouse, spice.

136 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:19:35pm

re: #130 Naso Tang

Can you roll it up on the sides at the same time? Now that is a genetically inherited trait, but what evolutionary benefit it has beats me.

(I can do the roll, but not the tippy tip bit)

Same here. I can even roll it back while it's folded. Completely worthless on a resume, though.

137 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:19:46pm

Charles, have you opted not to touch the World Net Daily article from last night? Too controversial?

138 Carridine  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:20:26pm

re: #74 Charles

Just can't get interested in the dog and pony show, I admit it. What, you're not already getting enough coverage of it in the mainstream media?


Charles, many of your commenters and active participants here are outside CONUS, and do not have access to 'the MSM' and its blather...

I'm no Obama fan, but I'm getting a lot of insight second-hand here, whereas a post on the REALITY of the All-Afghan Obama Dog & Pawnee Show might allow us some clarity of vision, even from afar...

/ack! Work calls, bbiaw

139 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:20:40pm

re: #136 Hard Right

Same here. I can even roll it back while it's folded. Completely worthless on a resume, though.

Well there is one industry where that would be valuable.......
But we won't go there.

140 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:20:42pm

re: #135 Josephine

Spouse, spice.

Now cut that out. (my head hurts again)

141 snowcrash  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:20:47pm

Viruses have been implicated in prostate, breast, and liver cancer. Research will bring more knowledge with the ultimate goal of new methods for treatments.

142 Ford_Prefect  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:21:13pm

re: #130 Naso Tang

Can you roll it up on the sides at the same time? Now that is a genetically inherited trait, but what evolutionary benefit it has beats me.

(I can do the roll, but not the tippy tip bit)

I can do that, too. I can also bend the top part of my thumb backwards. The better to hitchhike with.

Speaking of which...I have my towel and my copy of the Guide and I am out of here. Later froods.

143 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:21:32pm

re: #132 jcm

Death was not present before the fall, nor disease, child birth was free of complications and pain. A lot changed, wether from lack of maintenance or a real change, I can't say. I believe there was a change, but a lack of control would have the same result.

Fair enough, but I find it a very interesting question, scripturally speaking.

144 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:21:51pm

re: #139 jcm

Well there is one industry where that would be valuable.......
But we won't go there.

Hollywood agent?

145 Charles  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:21:51pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Charles, have you opted not to touch the World Net Daily article from last night? Too controversial?

To everything there is a season.

146 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:22:32pm

re: #145 Charles

To everything there is a season.

turn, turn

147 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:23:11pm

re: #136 Hard Right

Same here. I can even roll it back while it's folded. Completely worthless on a resume, though.

Depends. Could be a bonding topic at an interview.

/Yechh

148 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:23:38pm
149 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:24:00pm

re: #147 Naso Tang

Depends. Could be a bonding topic at an interview.

/Yechh

Never been that desperate for a job. I pray that I never am.

150 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:24:39pm

re: #133 BignJames

I'm just fascinated with this:

Like the two human retroviruses that were reconstructed in France and in New York, PtERV has long been extinct; Emerman and Malik realized that they would have to assemble a new version if they hoped to learn how we became immune to it. They took scores of viral sequences and lined them up to see what they had in common. The answer was almost everything. When there were differences in the sequence, the researchers used a statistical model to predict the most likely original version. Then they put the virus back together. (Like Bieniasz, in New York, they did so in such a way that the virus could reproduce only once.) They modified the human TRIM5a protein so that it would function like the chimp version. After that, the protein no longer protected humans against the reconstructed copy of the virus. Next, they tested this modified version against H.I.V. Emerman placed it in a dish, first with H.I.V. and next with PtERV. What he found astonished him. No matter how many times he repeated the test, the results never varied. “In every case, the protein blocked either PtERV or H.I.V.,” Emerman told me. “But it never protected the cells from both viruses.”

Just incredible. Perhaps it's because I have a friend who is HIV positive, but I think it's fantastic that such breakthroughs are being made that could spare people in the future from such a terrible disease.

151 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:25:48pm

re: #150 Sharmuta

I'm just fascinated with this:


Just incredible. Perhaps it's because I have a friend who is HIV positive, but I think it's fantastic that such breakthroughs are being made that could spare people in the future from such a terrible disease.

Articles like these feed my inner geek. I love it.

152 tchad  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:28:51pm

re: #95 Naso Tang

I think you are very very wrong there.

For estimates of who killed whom and in what numbers throughout history, professor R.J. Rummel of the University of Hawaii is a great resource.

[Link: www.hawaii.edu...]

As for the number of people killed by communism, Rummel estimates over 100,000,000:

[Link: www.hawaii.edu...]

153 Thanos  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:29:05pm

Aromatic amino acids are found in the stinky genes IIRC.

154 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:30:22pm

re: #153 Thanos

Aromatic amino acids are found in the stinky genes IIRC.

those are the ones I wear when I go fishing (my stinky jeans, that is)

155 Quilly Mammoth  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:30:26pm

re: #36 Cicero05

I'd be interested to hear how the ID types would explain this.

I was at a Science Fiction Con in the late 90's. There was a panel called "Designer Genes" (we're so clever). One of the guests was a fellow that worked on the Human Genome project and he made a statement that all the genetic engineering portrayed in SF could never approach the reality of what we can do once we figure it all out. He said that sooner or later we would define the basics and that it would all fit together "like legos". That we would be able to build _anything_. Just as certain elements fit so neatly so would the basic components of DNA...the code of life.

That panel type was quite the rage and you'll notice that shortly thereafter a number of stories reflecting substantially modified humans appeared. What is human?

As to ID?

The Great Engineer works in mysterious ways and it's probably best not to try and fit the GE into a specific time line or motive. After all, he figured it out first. ;)

156 Thanos  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:30:45pm

re: #152 tchad

I think you are very very wrong there.

For estimates of who killed whom and in what numbers throughout history, professor R.J. Rummel of the University of Hawaii is a great resource.

[Link: www.hawaii.edu...]

As for the number of people killed by communism, Rummel estimates over 100,000,000:

[Link: www.hawaii.edu...]

It's all flavors of marxism... Socialism, Leninism, Stalinism, Maoism are just varying shades of the same thing.

157 snowcrash  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:31:14pm

Anyone nervous about resurrecting extinct viruses? The article states they were re-engineered to reproduce just one time. Pretty cool and scary.

158 opnion  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:31:28pm

Good night all. Again, you have been fun & informative.

159 right_on_target  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:31:31pm

re: #46 allanthered

Charles did the Intelligent Design folks question your choice in music or what?

We've got BHO in Afghanistan the press falling all over themselves to make him the second coming and your keep pushing this stuff.

Just WAIT for OBummer's Foot-In-Mouth in Eurabia. It'll come.

160 mossley  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:31:43pm

re: #12 reine.de.tout

So . . . you went through all the trouble to register, just so you could blow us off?

Of course. It's part of the mindset. They can't just go away, they have to make a scene so everyone knows they are leaving. As if anyone was going to miss another drama queen.

161 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:31:56pm

Since someone was discussing RNA up thread:

Remnant Of Ancient 'RNA World' Discovered

162 Cicero05  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:33:19pm

re: #160 mossley

Of course. It's part of the mindset. They can't just go away, they have to make a scene so everyone knows they are leaving. As if anyone was going to miss another drama queen.

Too bad there isn't a door to slam. Charles, maybe you could rig up a nice sound effect?

163 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:33:43pm

re: #148 ploome hineni

what was the time between creation and the fall?

From let there be light?
Day 1
or Biblical man.

I translate the Hebrew Yowm (day) into span of time.

who was available to die?


Adam and Eve and all living things. Death in scripture is twofold it represents not only physical death, but separation from God.

to have disease?


The fall disrupted the creation which God declared as "good" perfect.


to have a child?


As long as Adam and Eve choose God, his plan would be fullfilled. As a rest his plan needs generations for a people to choose him completely.

lol
*laugh all you want, it still turtles all the way down*

;-)

164 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:35:53pm

re: #46 allanthered

Charles did the Intelligent Design folks question your choice in music or what?

We've got BHO in Afghanistan the press falling all over themselves to make him the second coming and your keep pushing this stuff.

Clean-up on Aisle 46! Some crepuscular asshole's telling Charles what to and not to post on his blog again!

165 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:36:50pm
We can’t be certain when endogenous retroviruses entered our genome, because it is impossible to watch a five-million-year process unfold. Yet in Australia a retrovirus seems to be evolving in front of our eyes. Beginning in the late nineteenth century, koalas on the mainland were hunted nearly to extinction. To protect them, as many as possible were captured and moved to several islands in the south. In the past hundred years, those koalas have been used to replenish the population on the mainland and on several other Australian islands. In many cases, though, they have become infected with a retrovirus that causes leukemia, immune disorders, and other diseases. It can even kill them. The epidemic presents a significant threat to the future of the species, and scientists have followed it closely. One group, from the University of Queensland, looked for the virus in koala DNA—and, as one would expect with a retrovirus, found it. The team also noticed that some of the babies, known as joeys, were infected in the same locations on their DNA as their parents. That means that the virus has become endogenous. Yet, when the scientists examined the koalas on Kangaroo Island, in the south, they discovered something they had not anticipated: none of the koalas were infected.

So much for the naysayers citing "where is evolution now?"

Answer: Australia

166 jcm  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:36:59pm

re: #164 Salamantis

Clean-up on Aisle 46! Some crepuscular asshole's telling Charles what to and not to post on his blog again!

I've been demanding more turtle posts.
Charles just doesn't listen.
*stomps feet*
/

167 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:37:13pm

re: #162 Cicero05

Too bad there isn't a door to slam. Charles, maybe you could rig up a nice sound effect?

How about someone being physically booted out the door?
Boot to the Head!

168 ted  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:37:32pm

The rare individuals who have fought off HIV have been suspected to have been harboring mutated endogenous retroviruses.

169 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:39:39pm

re: #161 Sharmuta

Since someone was discussing RNA up thread:

Remnant Of Ancient 'RNA World' Discovered

My inner nerd thanks you.

170 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:40:48pm

re: #65 Sharmuta

I first read this article thanks to Salamantis, and since then I've joined him occasionally in asking people to explain retroviral DNA. This quote above pretty much settled any questions I had before these threads.

Thanxabunch for the acknowledgement. I've been trying to get people here to read this article for more than a month! I am SOOOO glad that Charles decided to post it!

171 Thanos  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:42:34pm

Seriously however, I do detect some concern over what will come. There's good reason for that, but it's not as dangerous as portrayed. Remember that retrovirus', methylation, etc. can only turn of segments of the genome, not the whole darned thing.
So it can toggle expression in a gene segment on or off, or it can create something new. If you are adult there isn't much you can do to alter yourself through gene expression except through semi-drastic means.

e.g. If your life is totally sedentary, and you start excercising for thirty minutes a day over a period of weeks you will be activating some good genes, and disabling those ones that make you secretly want to hibernate.

:)

172 BlueCanuck  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:42:56pm

re: #167 Hard Right

How about someone being physically booted out the door?
Boot to the Head!

There you go. :)

173 freetoken  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:43:09pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

You probably already saw this Killgore as it was all over the net last month, but when I read quoted line I couldn't help but think of you and your LGF reputation; in case you missed it:

Christ Shot Down, Missile Shield a Success

[...]crowds of confused atheists who can’t decide whether to gloat or repent.

Funny.

174 Hard Right  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:46:14pm

re: #172 BlueCanuck

There you go. :)

+1 for knowing what I meant. An absolute classic.

175 cargocultist  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:47:55pm

Sounds a lot like a Sci-Fi book by Greg Bear called Darwin's Radio. I have not read this book but the other Greg Bear books I have read are very good. Greg Bear is a hard science fiction writer. This means his books are researched and based on real science. YMMV

176 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:51:16pm

re: #173 freetoken

Ha!

177 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:51:22pm

re: #152 tchad

I think you are very very wrong there.

For estimates of who killed whom and in what numbers throughout history, professor R.J. Rummel of the University of Hawaii is a great resource.

I trust we are not evolving into an argument about which is the real evil here, nor one that could be construed as defense of despotic regimes. A silly number with no connection to reality was presented as a comparison between human caused death versus disease. That number was clearly wrong, and that is the extent of my response in this case.

178 mossley  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:51:43pm

re: #162 Cicero05

Too bad there isn't a door to slam. Charles, maybe you could rig up a nice sound effect?


I liked the suggestion someone made the other night of a devouring lizard coming out if you click their profile. Probably not too practical though. It's a shame; it be the most entertaining part of their posts.

You know, I really don't like jazz that much, especially modern jazz. I find the TdF boring as all get out. (Sorry, Charles.) Do I complain when he posts something about those subjects? Do I throw a fit and leave? No. For one thing, it's not my blog, so my opinion on what gets posted is meaningless. It's also immature as hell, not to mention rude and counterproductive. I just don't post on those threads. Does being driven by a patently false dogma destroy all vestiges of maturity, common sense and politeness?

179 Etaoin Shrdlu  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:52:14pm

re: #36 Cicero05

I'd be interested to hear how the ID types would explain this.

God The Intelligent Designer got bored creating all those species from scratch and just started copying & pasting. He'd have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for those meddling scientists.

180 Josephine  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:53:01pm

After reading the article, I almost feel like I've been watching an episode of Star Trek in which retroviruses are highly intelligent super-beings (gods, even?) waiting and waiting for the perfect host to evolve.

/And they've got large, bald, veiny heads and tiny, high-pitched voices.

181 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:53:32pm

re: #145 Charles

Capice.

182 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:54:08pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

Chimpanzees are easily infected by the AIDS virus, but it never makes them sick. That has remained one of the most frustrating mysteries of the epidemic. How did nearly identical genetic relatives become immune to a virus that attacks us with such vigor? The most dramatic difference between the chimp genome and ours is that chimps have roughly a hundred and thirty copies of a virus called Pan troglodytes endogenous retrovirus, which scientists refer to by the acronym PtERV (pronounced “pea-terv”). Gorillas have eighty copies. Humans have none.
“We can see that PtERV infected gorillas and chimps four million years ago,’’ Emerman told me. “But there was never any trace of its infecting humans.” It is possible that all infected humans died, but it is far more likely that we developed a way to repel the virus. Nobody knew why until Emerman, Malik, and Shari Kaiser, a graduate student in Emerman’s lab, presented evidence for a startling theory: the evolutionary process that protects us from PtERV may be the central reason we are vulnerable to H.I.V.

Sharm: I think people who are turning their noses up at these threads are really missing out on some amazing stuff- this article especially.

It could also be because humans weren't around 4 million years ago, and their genetic precursors were restricted to small isolated populations that could well have never come into contact with the disease vectors.

But it would be interesting for scientists to engineer a virus the sole purpose of which was to splice PtERV sequences into our genomes, and see if that rendered us immune to HIV.

183 jcw46  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:54:15pm

re: #83 JamesTKirk
re: #78 Ford_Prefect

re: #76 JamesTKirk

Communism killed more people than smallpox or bubonic plague.

Nazism has to be right there, too.

Distant second.

MURDERERS murder.
Caution should be used when identifying certain groups as particularly murderous.
Affixing an identity label to mass murderers can be a way of assigning blame to a group that the label-applier wishes to assign as being intrinsically murderous. It can be used as a way of assuming the high moral ground for the label-applier or insider that gives them a feeling of false superiority over those labeled. It also may allow a label-applier the opportunity to brand all who are labeled as tainted with the mass murderer's sin and thus are lower or less worthy in comparison to the label-applier. (Which may be the point of the statement in the first place).

Example:
"80% of Nazis were Christian. (true)
Nazis murdered Jews. (true)
Therefore Christians murdered Jews. (true)
Sometimes the labeling is done so that the branding is done inferentially, thus the above statements are used to imply the following:
Christians murder Jews. (false)
This is similar to saying that Communism murdered peasants with the inference that all Communists murdered peasants or that Communism murders peasants. Also used with Atheism as being morally deficient which may or not be the case as it would depend on the particular Atheist.

Of course on the practical side this does not mean that Jews should not be concerned about Christians who involve themselves in activities that are anti-semitic or that folks shouldn't worry about Communists or Atheists in a government making laws that make anyone's faith or worship a criminal act.

Zealotry seems to be a most human trait.

184 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 6:55:57pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

Charles, have you opted not to touch the World Net Daily article from last night? Too controversial?

I'd like to see him do that, but it is his blog and his business.

(not trying to tell you what to do, Charles; please don't hurt me!)

185 Thanos  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:02:37pm

re: #180 Josephine

After reading the article, I almost feel like I've been watching an episode of Star Trek in which retroviruses are highly intelligent super-beings (gods, even?) waiting and waiting for the perfect host to evolve.

/And they've got large, bald, veiny heads and tiny, high-pitched voices.

186 garycooper  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:02:38pm

That was an awesome article, and it reminded me of why I was a subscriber to The New Yorker for nearly 20 years. Every few issues, there was a mind-blowing piece like this, that made up for all the boring crap they published about snotty elites.

At the bottom of this piece, I see the little-print link to the Master Of Disaster Himself, and then I remember why I let my subscription lapse: "Annals of National Security: Preparing the Battlefield" by Seymour M. Hersh.

He's always wrong, but he's got top secret inside-sources, who keep slipping him the files from the Pentagon's lunch-room trash barrels...

187 Mr Pancakes  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:03:18pm

re: #17 Charles

Learned the hard way to just block those people right away. Bye now.

It would be much more fun to poke them with a stick for awhile.

188 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:05:08pm

re: #168 ted

The rare individuals who have fought off HIV have been suspected to have been harboring mutated endogenous retroviruses.

Yes, and these few rare individuals are the subjects of intensive scientific study, to ascertain how their particular successes might be replicated in humans generally.

189 Thanos  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:10:23pm

re: #188 Salamantis

Yes, and these few rare individuals are the subjects of intensive scientific study, to ascertain how their particular successes might be replicated in humans generally.

Furthermore, to the neo creos who keep saying that evolutionary biology never contributes -- it's through evolutionary biology that we will be able to find a species with homologous genes to find the cure with.

190 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:11:39pm

paleovirology. 8 % of our DNA is junk. just laying around. like trash in a dirt yard.
that is so awesome. now i don't feel so bad that i'm not super 'tidy'.
i'll blame it on my genetics.

what an amazing article. i'm just stunned that the embryo in mammals most likely came into existence because of a virus that basically 'replaced' the need for the shell of an egg and resulted in a placenta.
that is just incredible.
i love science.

191 beachkatie  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:13:22pm

re: #161 Sharmuta
Thank you Sharmuta! That help to enlighten my studies on this subject!

192 jcw46  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:14:05pm

I thought I read recently that they've discovered that the "junk" dna actually has uses. It only "turns on" under certain circumstances and otherwise is inactive.

193 Thanos  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:15:20pm

re: #190 nyc redneck

paleovirology. 8 % of our DNA is junk. just laying around. like trash in a dirt yard.
that is so awesome. now i don't feel so bad that i'm not super 'tidy'.
i'll blame it on my genetics.

what an amazing article. i'm just stunned that the embryo in mammals most likely came into existence because of a virus that basically 'replaced' the need for the shell of an egg and resulted in a placenta.
that is just incredible.
i love science.

I suspect not all of it's junk, rather we just don't yet know what it does, or how to make it express.

194 Josephine  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:20:16pm

re: #185 Thanos

LOL! Love it, thanks!

195 BBev  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:25:46pm

This is interesting and a variation on this subject HARVARD GAZETTE ARCHIVES

Finding disease by subtraction:
Pathologist Matthew Meyerson searches for nonhuman life in humans
By William J. Cromie
Gazette Staff

The human body shelters a zoo of microbes - thousands of bacteria, viruses, fungi, and protozoa. Some are helpful, some are harmful, many are unknown. It's a good bet that some of the unknowns provoke diseases whose causes remain a mystery.

196 texasjihad  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:27:27pm

I guess you are all aware that the man who now heads the Human Genome Project was so moved by the evidence that he --Francis Collins wrote a book in support of faith--The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief

Here is the link

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

197 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:30:26pm

re: #185 Thanos

re: #180 Josephine

After reading the article, I almost feel like I've been watching an episode of Star Trek in which retroviruses are highly intelligent super-beings (gods, even?) waiting and waiting for the perfect host to evolve.

/And they've got large, bald, veiny heads and tiny, high-pitched voices.

[Link: [Link: www.youtube.com...]...]

198 profitsbeard  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:36:51pm

And don't forget prions, those indestructible micro-molecular protein-based agents that can "survive" all methods (heat, radiation, pressure, chemicals, etc.) of eradication which would destroy most viruses, and that can continue harming their hosts, as BSE (Bovine Spongiform Encephalopathy, or Mad Cow's Disease) demonstrated among the Brits.

These specifically go after nerve and brain tissue, reprogramming them with the "wrong" instructions.

Like bad ideas, at the cellular level.

199 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:37:48pm

re: #196 texasjihad

I guess you are all aware that the man who now heads the Human Genome Project was so moved by the evidence that he --Francis Collins wrote a book in support of faith--The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief

Here is the link

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Yep. And he remains a staunch supporter of evolutionary theory, and sees no contradiction whatsoever between the two. And he does not embrace a literal reading of Genesis, nor does he view the Argument from Design as particularly compelling:

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

ABERNETHY: Do you find in science grounds for, and encouragement for, faith?

COLLINS: I think it's probably difficult to take the investigation of the natural world and say, "I can prove to you, because of the elegance and beauty of all of this, that there must be a creator God." You can certainly use those arguments, but I think they alone will not carry the day for a skeptic. Once one has become a believer, this is, in fact, a very satisfying aspect of all of this -- that you see things that God knew before, and now you get to see them, too. And that is an exhilarating experience. But as an argument to say, "Well, flowers are so beautiful," or, "This DNA sequence is particularly elegant; therefore, you have to believe in the creator God" -- I have not found that in itself to be compelling to a skeptic.

ABERNETHY: What do you say to your fellow Christians who say, "Evolution is just a theory, and I can't put that together with my idea of a creator God"?

COLLINS: Well, evolution is a theory. It's a very compelling one. As somebody who studies DNA, the fact that we are 98.4 percent identical at the DNA level to a chimpanzee, it's pretty hard to ignore the fact that when I am studying a particular gene, I can go to the mouse and find it's the similar gene, and it's 90 percent the same. It's certainly compatible with the theory of evolution, although it will always be a theory that we cannot actually prove. I'm a theistic evolutionist. I take the view that God, in His wisdom, used evolution as His creative scheme. I don't see why that's such a bad idea. That's pretty amazingly creative on His part. And what is wrong with that as a way of putting together in a synthetic way the view of God who is interested in creating a group of individuals that He can have fellowship with -- us? Why is evolution not an appropriate way to get to that goal? I don't see a problem with that. The only problems that get put forward are by those who would interpret Genesis 1 in a very literal way. And that interpretation in many ways is a -- is a modern one. Saint Augustine in 400 AD, without any reasons to try to be an apologist to Charles Darwin, agreed that that was not a particularly appropriate way to interpret the words that are written in that first chapter of the Bible.

200 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:43:54pm

re: #7 DeathtotheSwiss

Why would god design the body this way?

Strict union compliance in the work place?

}:/     [No, no, wait, I got it, it's those damned OSHA safety rules, they hinder industry ... ]

201 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:47:19pm

re: #13 EC Marm

Damn, you got in (and out) before Killgore could predict it.

So who won the pool this time?

}:)     [Maybe next time I'll put two quarters in ... ]

202 profitsbeard  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:50:30pm

Prions.

(Previous link was obviously corrupted by one of their grammatical cousins.)

203 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:51:31pm
re: #26 Sharmuta
Nothing—not even the Plague—has posed a more persistent threat to humanity than viral diseases.

I'm not disagreeing, but I just want to add mosquitos have not been our friends.

... because they often carry a virus?

}:)     [But then, you meant to say that, I'm sure, I just interrupted before you could post it ... my bad ... ]

204 evilrightwingnut  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:55:56pm

"And some of these extinct viruses are now being resurrected"

I am Legend here we come.

205 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 7:57:39pm

re: #193 Thanos

I suspect not all of it's junk, rather we just don't yet know what it does, or how to make it express.

the article said it was discarded junk. it did sound odd. but i took it at face value.

206 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 8:01:12pm
re: #38 Naso Tang
re: #11 jcm

Speaking from a scriptural stand point, the fall got in the way. When man turned away from God, the body began to decay. Disease and death are a result of man's fall, not God's design.

And how is that explained, beyond a statement of supposed fact?

Was it a deliberate "bomb"inserted in the system in case anyone did the wrong thing, so it would cause pain, suffering and death, or was it a result of withdrawal from monitoring and intelligently manipulating a complex system from time to time so as to keep it from reverting to an uncontrolled self adjusting system via, perhaps, what we call evolution?

Kinda implies two things:

A.  Man is either the equal of this Deity, because Man can allegedly change man in ways the Deity doesn't want to happen (it's implied that the Deity doesn't want want death or disease for it's creation), or

B.  The Deity can't create anything but imperfect creations, and hence is imperfect itself.

}:P     [Hmmm, if I was in the Creationist crowd I think I'd let Evolution take the blame on this one ... ]

207 tchad  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 8:03:27pm

re: #177 Naso Tang

I trust we are not evolving into an argument about which is the real evil here, nor one that could be construed as defense of despotic regimes. A silly number with no connection to reality was presented as a comparison between human caused death versus disease. That number was clearly wrong, and that is the extent of my response in this case.

If you had a more credible source than Dr. Rummel for the number of people killed by communism, you were quite welcome to provide it. He might be wrong, and I would enjoy reading a good Rummel critique. But of course you did not provide or link to a credible critique, which probably means that you cannot do so. You think you can wave away Rummel's exhaustively researched estimate by calling it "a silly number" and "clearly wrong." Sorry, gratuitous assertions don't win arguments.

Then you sniff, "And that is the extent of my response in this case." Dare I say it, that sounds almost manly! Too bad pomposity doesn't win arguments either.

208 Proud to be American  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 8:04:09pm

Did you see some asshat posted a phony comment pretending to be Charles? Pathetic.

209 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 8:06:30pm

I am cross-posting this comment, which I made earlier on another thread, because it directly addresses some fundamental ramifications of this article.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Excerpt:

I'm sorry if this sounds condescending, but you just don't seem to understand what artifactual retroviral DNA sequences are, and what they mean. The clues are in the words themselves; these sequences are artifacts that were left by retroviruses. In other words, their sources were external to the organism, not internal; they were inserted into the genomes when viruses infected the organisms to whom the genomes belonged, and sneaked them in there.

There are thousands of these identical infection-caused sequences that are shared by humans and grreat apes, and they occur in the identical locations in both great ape and human DNA. If great apes and humans did not share common ancestors who got infected with these sequence-leaving bugs, that would have to mean that over the course of millions of years, both the great apes and humans got infected with the same diseases, at the same times, thousands of times over, and within a time frame in which we can find neither human fossils nor great ape fossils (the reason we can't find either of them is because neither of them existed at the time; only those common ancestors from which humans and gereat apes diverged, who were busy getting occasionally infected with retroviruses during all that time). That's what I meant when I stated that the odds were vanishingly small; because the chances of all those identical artifactual retroviral sequences being there, in identical locations in these different genomes, is indeed vanishingly small - unless great apes and humans shared common ancestors. And yet all of those identical retroviral sequences are indeed there, in identical locations in both human and great ape genomes. And this simple, irrefutable fact can be checked at will.

210 Proud to be American  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 8:06:35pm

re: #208 Proud to be American

Posted this on the wrong thread -- and I can't even blame it on drinking!

211 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 8:08:40pm

re: #207 tchad


Then you sniff, "And that is the extent of my response in this case." Dare I say it, that sounds almost manly! Too bad pomposity doesn't win arguments either.


See, this is a good example of jumping in without looking. There was a post that the plague killed 30% of the population, numbering 200,000 people (dead).

That's wrong. That's all I said.

You've got the wrong bee up your butt, and it's time for me to say goodnight.

212 transient  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 8:15:03pm

Charles, thanks for posting articles like this. People need to realize how broad the evidence is for evolution, how many different sciences provide evidence.

Unfortunately work is busy and I can't linger, not even to ding! I only skimmed the article. I don't think they mentioned gene therapy. One of the potential clinical uses for these engineered retroviruses is to insert normal copies of genes into patients with genetic defects (e.g., sickle cell anemia). If the normal gene is inserted and the normal protein made, these patients are then cured of the disease. (As noted in the article, the only way to cure subsequent generations is to insert the normal copies in the germ cell lines as well).

re: #11 jcm

Speaking from a scriptural stand point, the fall got in the way. When man turned away from God, the body began to decay. Disease and death are a result of man's fall, not God's design.


The problem with the "Fall" idea is that Man is not the only species affected by death and disease. Likewise, if you consider the extent of retroviral "junk DNA" to be a result of "The Fall," then you have to explain why God is vindictive enough to punish monkeys, mice, birds, reptiles, etc. for Man's (Woman's) trespass.

213 Gordan the Fisherman  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 8:29:16pm

I think the SciFi channel is making an "origional movie" about this right now. Ricky Schroeder will be the test monkey.

214 tchad  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 9:16:14pm

re: #211 Naso Tang

Your post #95 was basically correct, so I apologize.

215 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 9:23:24pm

Man, this thread has chilled down fast. Is the content too intimidating, or have the riff raff all been bounced?

216 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 9:24:26pm

This ain't many comments for a thread like this in 4 hours...

217 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 10:33:57pm

re: #76 JamesTKirk: "Communism killed more people than smallpox or bubonic plague."

re: #107 JamesTKirk

re: #95 Naso Tang

I think you are very very wrong there. Since you make the statement, would you care to give us the numbers?

When the Black Death decimated Europe several centuries ago, the worst natural disaster in history, it killed about 200,000 people. That was a third of the population then.

However, there are a lot more people in the world today, and a number like 200,000 is peanuts to men like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc.

The following is predicated on the idea that you mean the Black Death as synonymous with Bubonic Plague.  Some folks see Bubonic Plague as only one form of the Black Death plague, so it probably IS debatable, though most sources seem to see the two as the same.  Since they're both diseases brought about by the same source, Yersinia pestis, I'm going to presume you do:

The wikipedia artical estimates the total number of deaths worldwide for the Black Death at about 75 million, as does All About History.   MedicineNet puts it over 32 million.  Britannica Online says Europe alone had 25 million, as does How Stuff Works ... again, Europe alone at that time -- which is the number agreed upon by the Church of the Brethren Network.  This paper estimates about 100 million, overall.

This page estimates 300-500 million deaths from Small Pox in just the 20th Century alone.  UC Davis Magazine estimates at least 300 million in that time period.  At this point I got bored with the research but I can dig deeper if necessary.

Point of order: Adolph Hitler wasn't a Communist.  I'm sure others will be able to provide the deaths from Pol Pot and Stalin, though I thought them about 13 million and 20 million, respectively.

}:)     [I thought the math a tad light, too ... ]

218 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 10:42:43pm
re: #145 Charles
re: #137 Killgore Trout

Charles, have you opted not to touch the World Net Daily article from last night? Too controversial?

To everything there is a season.

Now who says you're not a scriptural kinda guy!

}:)     [That makes me nostalgic ... ]

219 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 10:57:58pm

re: #171 Thanos

If you are adult there isn't much you can do to alter yourself through gene expression except through semi-drastic means.

e.g. If your life is totally sedentary, and you start excercising for thirty minutes a day over a period of weeks you will be activating some good genes, and disabling those ones that make you secretly want to hibernate.

Yeah, that's as drastic as it comes.

}:)     [Larry Niven: Ah, exercise, I could watch it all day ... ]

220 Buster Bunny  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 11:27:04pm

Now for the 64,000 dollar question .....

Will these retroviruses affect my ability to purchase KFC in Fallujah?

Had to be asked.

221 A. van Hilten  Sun, Jul 20, 2008 11:57:31pm

re: #11 jcm

Speaking from a scriptural stand point, the fall got in the way. When man turned away from God, the body began to decay. Disease and death are a result of man's fall, not God's design.

So if it's fine and dandy, then God did it. But if it's FUBAR, then that's because we're all sinners by definition. (I guess even Ann Coulter needs to be 'perfected' too then, right?)

How fuckin' convenient for God to not be responsible for the flaws in his creation/ID.

222 wanumba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:00:33am

re: #183 jcw46
MURDERERS murder.
Caution should be used when identifying certain groups as particularly murderous.
Affixing an identity label to mass murderers can be a way of assigning blame to a group that the label-applier wishes to assign as being intrinsically murderous. It can be used as a way of assuming the high moral ground for the label-applier or insider that gives them a feeling of false superiority over those labeled. It also may allow a label-applier the opportunity to brand all who are labeled as tainted with the mass murderer's sin and thus are lower or less worthy in comparison to the label-applier. (Which may be the point of the statement in the first place).

Example:
"80% of Nazis were Christian. (true)
Nazis murdered Jews. (true)
Therefore Christians murdered Jews. (true)
Sometimes the labeling is done so that the branding is done inferentially, thus the above statements are used to imply the following:
Christians murder Jews. (false)
This is similar to saying that Communism murdered peasants with the inference that all Communists murdered peasants or that Communism murders peasants. Also used with Atheism as being morally deficient which may or not be the case as it would depend on the particular Atheist.

Of course on the practical side this does not mean that Jews should not be concerned about Christians who involve themselves in activities that are anti-semitic or that folks shouldn't worry about Communists or Atheists in a government making laws that make anyone's faith or worship a criminal act.

Zealotry seems to be a most human trait.


Is this reasoning supposed to reassure people or panic them?
80% of NAZIs were NOT Christians. NAZIs executed Christian pastors and burned Bibles. So, does that make sense, Christians executing Christian pastors and burning their own Holy Book?

With "friends like this" who needs enemies?

223 wanumba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:05:01am

re: #18 jcw46
crimsonfisted
Umm, should they be doing that?

My sentiments exactly. Who is monitoring the isolation protocols used for this research? This reminds of the folks that wanted to resurrect the smallpox virus from the early 20th century (1918's I think; I don't know if they succeeded). I can understand the desire to research this stuff but does the information gained outweigh the danger?


This guy doesn't care about the risks, he's got Noble Prize on the brain. How horribly did the little animals die?

224 gman  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:31:55am

re: #223 wanumba

crimsonfisted
Umm, should they be doing that?

This guy doesn't care about the risks, he's got Noble Prize on the brain. How horribly did the little animals die?

From what I gather from this Nova episode, scientists are extremely interested in these killer viruses because they want to know why they were so deadly. By unlocking the mystery of what made them so deadly, scientists might be able to prevent pandemics in the future.

225 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:40:30am

re: #222 wanumba

MURDERERS murder.
Caution should be used when identifying certain groups as particularly murderous.
Affixing an identity label to mass murderers can be a way of assigning blame to a group that the label-applier wishes to assign as being intrinsically murderous. It can be used as a way of assuming the high moral ground for the label-applier or insider that gives them a feeling of false superiority over those labeled. It also may allow a label-applier the opportunity to brand all who are labeled as tainted with the mass murderer's sin and thus are lower or less worthy in comparison to the label-applier. (Which may be the point of the statement in the first place).

Example:
"80% of Nazis were Christian. (true)
Nazis murdered Jews. (true)
Therefore Christians murdered Jews. (true)
Sometimes the labeling is done so that the branding is done inferentially, thus the above statements are used to imply the following:
Christians murder Jews. (false)
This is similar to saying that Communism murdered peasants with the inference that all Communists murdered peasants or that Communism murders peasants. Also used with Atheism as being morally deficient which may or not be the case as it would depend on the particular Atheist.

Of course on the practical side this does not mean that Jews should not be concerned about Christians who involve themselves in activities that are anti-semitic or that folks shouldn't worry about Communists or Atheists in a government making laws that make anyone's faith or worship a criminal act.

Zealotry seems to be a most human trait.


Is this reasoning supposed to reassure people or panic them?
80% of NAZIs were NOT Christians. NAZIs executed Christian pastors and burned Bibles. So, does that make sense, Christians executing Christian pastors and burning their own Holy Book?

With "friends like this" who needs enemies?

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

The name Adolf Hitler invokes images of the death and destruction caused by his evil regime. If asked to describe Hitler's Germany, many Christians would probably say something like this: Nazis were pagans who wanted to destroy Christianity and rule the world, and true Christians either opposed these monsters by being part of the resistance, or were frightened into silence by the Gestapo and SS.

But what if that description is not historically accurate? What if sincere Christians actually supported Adolf Hitler? Consider the following:
- 95% of Hitler's Germans declared themselves officially as Christian.
- During the first years of Hitler's rule, 95 - 98% of this same population supported Nazi policies through regular referendum.
- Hitler never closed a church.
- Hitler banned pagans from school boards and banished pagan literature from the military.
- Hitler had to order some churches to remove his picture from their altars.
- The Hitler Youth had youth pastors and over 100 Hitler Youth camps had Bible teaching.
- The Gestapo raised funds for African missions.

Hindsight is 20/20
It is easy to see how grievously Christians in Germany erred in their support of Adolf Hitler, but we must be careful not to judge them as if they were somehow different from ourselves. As St. Paul states, "we (all) see through a glass, darkly." Individually and collectively, we are capable of incredible blindness. We can learn from the mistakes of the Germans of that time by looking at a few considerations.

to be continued...

226 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:41:14am

re: #46 allanthered

Charles did the Intelligent Design folks question your choice in music or what?

We've got BHO in Afghanistan the press falling all over themselves to make him the second coming and your keep pushing this stuff.

The Disco Taliban are in cahoots with Turkish Islamonutsies in a joint effort to hijack public school curricula, in case you hadn't noticed.

They're like viruses taking over a cell and using it to spread infection: They do so by injecting their own noxious genetic material into a host cell and replicating themselves through their host until they kill it.

A close analogy for the intended use the Disco Taliban have in mind for the public school system.

The Disco Taliban™ — Coming To A School District Near You Soon!

227 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:42:04am

re: #222 wanumba

MURDERERS murder.
Caution should be used when identifying certain groups as particularly murderous.
Affixing an identity label to mass murderers can be a way of assigning blame to a group that the label-applier wishes to assign as being intrinsically murderous. It can be used as a way of assuming the high moral ground for the label-applier or insider that gives them a feeling of false superiority over those labeled. It also may allow a label-applier the opportunity to brand all who are labeled as tainted with the mass murderer's sin and thus are lower or less worthy in comparison to the label-applier. (Which may be the point of the statement in the first place).

Example:
"80% of Nazis were Christian. (true)
Nazis murdered Jews. (true)
Therefore Christians murdered Jews. (true)
Sometimes the labeling is done so that the branding is done inferentially, thus the above statements are used to imply the following:
Christians murder Jews. (false)
This is similar to saying that Communism murdered peasants with the inference that all Communists murdered peasants or that Communism murders peasants. Also used with Atheism as being morally deficient which may or not be the case as it would depend on the particular Atheist.

Of course on the practical side this does not mean that Jews should not be concerned about Christians who involve themselves in activities that are anti-semitic or that folks shouldn't worry about Communists or Atheists in a government making laws that make anyone's faith or worship a criminal act.

Zealotry seems to be a most human trait.


Is this reasoning supposed to reassure people or panic them?
80% of NAZIs were NOT Christians. NAZIs executed Christian pastors and burned Bibles. So, does that make sense, Christians executing Christian pastors and burning their own Holy Book?

With "friends like this" who needs enemies?

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]
So What Can We Learn?

Poor grounding in the essentials of the faith - With many theologians losing sight of Jesus as Lord, the Germans lost perspective on the proper limitation of moral/political authority. Limiting Christ to the role of an ethical example allowed for misinterpretation of His message.

Self-righteousness - Many Germans believed they were culturally superior. Whether they thought this superiority was a natural effect of history or God's special calling, it made the Nazi racial claims more easy to accept.

Primacy of self-interest - Germans lost a sense of being one another's keeper. Their suffering blinded them to the needs of any but their own "kind," and loving one's neighbor was viewed as "loving one's German neighbor."

Placing evil outside of themselves - Blame is a natural extension of self-righteousness and important to self-preservation. For the Germans, blaming the Jew became easy. Once a scapegoat was created, all manner of evil was projected away from themselves.

Naivete - When we lose sight of man's potential for evil, we place blind trust in others. Germans had a history of following leaders they could trust and their culture was truth-based. But losing perspective on what could happen proved disastrous.

Compartmentalization - Segmenting life into manageable compartments allowed the Germans to separate personal morality from public standards.

228 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:42:49am

Church Support of the Third Reich
Germany is historically rich in Christian tradition. Much of the German population considered themselves to be Christian, but despite a cultural identification with Christianity, many Germans had lost touch with faith as a personal experience. For some, the defeat of World War I had contributed to doubts about God's existence. For others, their faith had become a matter of culture. In particular, liberal Protestant theologians had presented Jesus more as an ethical example than a personal Lord and Savior. By the time Hitler became Chancellor in 1933, church attendance had fallen.

Nevertheless, the German people still held to a Christian cultural perspective and were hungry for spiritual awakening. Hitler was quickly perceived as a leader of messianic quality, and in revivalist fashion, both Roman Catholic and Protestant churches began to fill.

The Roman Catholic Church lagged behind the Protestants in its enthusiasm for Hitler and his movement. Perhaps because of its international nature, the Catholic Church had less interest in a nationalist movement than its Protestant counterparts. However, it had a deep fear of Communism and saw a strong, anti-communist Germany as an important defense against Stalin and his godless revolution.

So, in spite of his reservations, the Pope gave formal support to Hitler's government in 1933 by signing an agreement which promised Rome's support of Hitler so long as Hitler defended the Church. Once signed, the Concordat opened the door for priests to overtly support the Nazis, and some did so with great enthusiasm. Consider the words of Father Erhard Schlund, a Franciscan publicist: "We must fight the destructive influences of Jews on religion, morality, literature, art, and political and social life." Archbishop T. Karl Innitzer of Vienna stated in 1938: "We joyfully recognize that the National Socialist Movement has accomplished marvelous deeds for the German Reich...The bishops promise their cooperation and add their benediction. They also will admonish their people to follow their example."

Hitler enjoyed widespread support from the Protestant churches. Rev. Martin Niemoller, one of the eventual "resistors," voted Nazi in 1933 and urged his congregation to do so as well. And why not? Hitler's close confidant Joseph Goebbels told his friends that he read the New Testament every night, and Hitler's mentor, Dietrich Eckardt, said: "In Christ, the embodiment of all manliness, we find all that we need."

Even the famous martyr Dietrich Bonheoffer offered wary approval of Hitler's Jewish policies in the early days. In a 1933 church newsletter, Bonheoffer wrote: "Without a doubt the Jewish question is one of the historical problems with which the state must deal, and without a doubt the state is justified in blazing new trails here."

About 6,000 (one third) Protestant pastors formed a group called the Deutsche Christen (German Christians). This organization was expressly created to merge Christian doctrine and Nazi ideology! Their national periodical was named The Gospel in the Third Reich. Another third of Germany's Protestant churches were deeply offended by those extremes and, led by Niemoller and Bonheoffer, began declaring their opposition. Their opposition, however, was directed more against church administrative policies than Nazi ideology. Sadly, the vast majority of Protestant leaders continued to seek reasons for continued confidence in Hitler. Even as late as 1939, Rev. Niemoller wrote a letter from his prison cell requesting to be reinstated into the navy to fight for Germany.

229 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:43:03am

Consider these other troubling examples of Protestant support for the Hitler regime: nearly 85% of Protestant pastors took the oath of personal loyalty to Adolf Hitler (some under duress, but most willingly). The Lippe Regional Church Administration required all employees to greet one another with the Hitler salute at work. Pastors in the Rhineland recruited their young people into the Hitler Youth. "Sieg Heil" was used in church benedictions. In fact, enthusiasm for the Hitler regime was so great among the churches that the Nazi state had to enforce its own version of separation of Church and State. Hitler forbade the wearing of Nazi uniforms at church except at funerals and ordered churches to stop flying the Nazi flag, to remove the flag from their altars, and to stop stamping their correspondence with the swastika!

230 wanumba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:50:39am

re: #227 Salamantis
Summary. NAZIS were not Christians. They killed them.
Hitler considered Pastor Deitrich Bonhoffer an enemy of the regime. Christians sheltered Jews, helped them escape, Christians who were caught doing this were executed on the spot or sent to the death camps.

Malicious disinformation and a horrific smear designed to panic to intone to the world that NAZIs were Christians and therefore CHristians killed Jews. Big news to Pastor Deitrich Bonhoffer who Hitler made sure was executed before the Allies could liberate the camps.

Malicious disinformation and historical ignorance to intone that "THEY persecuted Socrates," too, don't you agree?

231 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 12:57:43am

re: #222 wanumba

Is this reasoning supposed to reassure people or panic them?
80% of NAZIs were NOT Christians. NAZIs executed Christian pastors and burned Bibles. So, does that make sense, Christians executing Christian pastors and burning their own Holy Book?

With "friends like this" who needs enemies?

And who would want to be friends with someone who needs to whitewash history to make it suit their faith/agenda?

Is your Christianity 'under assault' simply because someone reminds you of some inconvenient FACTS in German history (like Martin Luther being a rabid antisemite all his life, or a man of god like Niemöller accusing the Jews of being Christ
-killers)?

However, Niemöller only gradually abandoned his national conservative views and even made pejorative remarks about Jews while protecting converted Jews in his own church. In one sermon in 1935, he remarked: "What is the reason for [their] obvious punishment, which has lasted for thousands of years? Dear brethren, the reason is easily given: the Jews brought the Christ of God to the cross!"[12]

A true man of God. Ouch!

232 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 1:02:34am

re: #230 wanumba

Summary. NAZIS were not Christians. They killed them.
Hitler considered Pastor Deitrich Bonhoffer an enemy of the regime. Christians sheltered Jews, helped them escape, Christians who were caught doing this were executed on the spot or sent to the death camps.

Malicious disinformation and a horrific smear designed to panic to intone to the world that NAZIs were Christians and therefore CHristians killed Jews. Big news to Pastor Deitrich Bonhoffer who Hitler made sure was executed before the Allies could liberate the camps.

Malicious disinformation and historical ignorance to intone that "THEY persecuted Socrates," too, don't you agree?

Yeah, why let the facts get in your way?

The only 'malicious disinformation campaign' here is being conducted by you and other morons like you, who insist on twisting history to suit their own ends.

233 wanumba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 1:10:16am

re: #231 A. van Hilten
My "Christianity under assault?" Nope. There is a very very very simple liitmus test of a Christian or a non-Christian:
"Ye will know them by their fruit."
Even the Devil will call himself a Christian if it suits his purposes, but it will never be the truth.

Is there any particular reason you feel liberated to be snarky to a perfect stranger who's done you no harm at all? Like you think Christians are not to be trusted or something like that?

234 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 1:22:32am

re: #233 wanumba

My "Christianity under assault?" Nope. There is a very very very simple liitmus test of a Christian or a non-Christian:
"Ye will know them by their fruit."
Even the Devil will call himself a Christian if it suits his purposes, but it will never be the truth.

Is there any particular reason you feel liberated to be snarky to a perfect stranger who's done you no harm at all? Like you think Christians are not to be trusted or something like that?

Subverting history, for starters. I get really pissed off when people start whitewashing history.

235 wanumba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 1:28:04am

re: #234 A. van Hilten
How do you think we felt when we saw this howler today?
""For in the same way they (Christians) persecuted Socrates."

Seems that there are other people out there who detest Christianity who will twist history for their own ends, too.

236 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 1:53:31am

re: #235 wanumba

How do you think we felt when we saw this howler today?
""For in the same way they (Christians) persecuted Socrates."

Seems that there are other people out there who detest Christianity who will twist history for their own ends, too.

So now two wrongs make a right?

Oh, and btw, how about this for an utter moron's take on the subject: Will you Serve Yeshua HaMoshiach (Jesus The Christ) and His Gospel, or will you serve Socrates and his? ?

SOCRATES AND HIS STUDENT PLATO, ALONG WITH ARISTOTLE REPRESENT THE EPITOME OF "HELLENIZING THOUGHT"

-------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------

In all these centuries, this is still the best that unregenerate or carnal man has been able to come up with: Greek philosophy and/or thought systems. Their conributions in this area were huge. Although they did seek Absolute Truth, and many of their ideas do possess truth to a greater or lesser extent, they could and can never reach that Absolute, because the origins of their systems ultimately rested on man himself.

Today's flawed Humanistic thinking, both "Secular" and Christian, are loosely based on this same Socratic philosophy: the "gospel of Socrates". They assert or imply that "all men" (even unregenerate men) [3] are born Autonomous, and can establish meaning (even Divine Meaning as in the case of Christian Humanists) using mans' unregenerate Fallen intellect alone using Fallen human reason. This idea has slowly crept into the very fabric of society without so much as a question and has become "perfectly acceptable" in most educational institutions and nearly all denominations of the Assemblies! [4]

This fucktard is beyond parody.

"Hellenizing thought" — is that meant to be an insult?

'Cause it fails miserably at that, unless it's meant to insult his own intelligence.

237 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 2:23:56am

re: #235 wanumba

How do you think we felt when we saw this howler today?
""For in the same way they (Christians) persecuted Socrates."

Seems that there are other people out there who detest Christianity who will twist history for their own ends, too.

Oh, now I see where you're coming from:

Charles, you are entitled to your opinion, everything
that you hold dear, but when you posted last night a theological statement, that is read coast to coast and worldwide, that condemns Orthodox Jews, Evangelical Catholics and Evangelical Protestants to a category of "NOT TO BE TRUSTED," you have given posters on this blog the tacit approval to go after other posters for their deeply held religious beliefs.

You dishonest prick. What part of "a belief in God does not preclude evolution" don't you get, you literalist asshat?

Evangelical Catholics... That's a new one. I guess, by that token, I'm a devout 'Pastafarian Catholic' then.

Sorry, but the only Catholics worthy of that name (who can wear that badge without actually being subjected to all the scorn or ridicule they rightfully deserve) are genuine Roman Catholics who do abide by the Papal doctrine on evolution, among many other things. The rest are better described as 'cafeteria Catholics', if they are to be considered Catholics at all.

An 'Evangelical Catholic' — WTF is that? A heretic by any other name?

238 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 2:32:37am

re: #237 A. van Hilten

Correction: "...who can wear that badge without actually being subjected to all the scorn or ridicule they rightfully deserve" should read instead: "who can wear that badge without actually being subjected to all the scorn or ridicule wannabe 'Catholics' [as in Evangelical Catholics] rightfully deserve."

239 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 2:36:40am

re: #230 wanumba

Summary. NAZIS were not Christians. They killed them.
Hitler considered Pastor Deitrich Bonhoffer an enemy of the regime. Christians sheltered Jews, helped them escape, Christians who were caught doing this were executed on the spot or sent to the death camps.

Malicious disinformation and a horrific smear designed to panic to intone to the world that NAZIs were Christians and therefore CHristians killed Jews. Big news to Pastor Deitrich Bonhoffer who Hitler made sure was executed before the Allies could liberate the camps.

You must not have read the posts, or else I cannot fathom how you could have possibly missed this:

Hitler enjoyed widespread support from the Protestant churches. Rev. Martin Niemoller, one of the eventual "resistors," voted Nazi in 1933 and urged his congregation to do so as well. And why not? Hitler's close confidant Joseph Goebbels told his friends that he read the New Testament every night, and Hitler's mentor, Dietrich Eckardt, said: "In Christ, the embodiment of all manliness, we find all that we need."

Even the famous martyr Dietrich Bonheoffer offered wary approval of Hitler's Jewish policies in the early days. In a 1933 church newsletter, Bonheoffer wrote: "Without a doubt the Jewish question is one of the historical problems with which the state must deal, and without a doubt the state is justified in blazing new trails here."

About 6,000 (one third) Protestant pastors formed a group called the Deutsche Christen (German Christians). This organization was expressly created to merge Christian doctrine and Nazi ideology! Their national periodical was named The Gospel in the Third Reich. Another third of Germany's Protestant churches were deeply offended by those extremes and, led by Niemoller and Bonheoffer, began declaring their opposition. Their opposition, however, was directed more against church administrative policies than Nazi ideology. Sadly, the vast majority of Protestant leaders continued to seek reasons for continued confidence in Hitler. Even as late as 1939, Rev. Niemoller wrote a letter from his prison cell requesting to be reinstated into the navy to fight for Germany.

Malicious disinformation and historical ignorance to intone that "THEY persecuted Socrates," too, don't you agree?

The 'they' that persecuted Socrates were those members of Athens who believed in the Gods, and viewed Socrates' doubting of them, in front of their youth, as heretical, blasphemous, and deserving of death. I notice you didn't mention Giordano Bruno and Galileo; the first was burned at the stake for heresy and the second was forced to recant (in effect, to tell a lie) in order to avoid the same fate. In each case, deity-believers were either killing apostates or forcing them to recant their apostasy under pain of death. The particular religion of the Athenians was not the religion of the Roman Catholic Church, but the principle was precisely the same.

The site that I posted the link to is a major Christian site, that does not cover merely the history of German Christian collaboration with the Third Reich, but in fact presents sections on Christianity throughout history.

In the link that I posted, they acknowledge the collusion between German Christians and the Nazis during the Third Reich, apologize for the failing, attempt atonement, and pledge never to forget that sad and disastrous history, so that they will never, through ignorance, repeat it the next time a charismatic politician with terrible plans nods, winks and smiles sideways at them.

You strike me as a person who either does not read posts before disagreeing with them, or who lacks the cognitive prerequisites with which to fully comprehend them.

240 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 2:40:25am

re: #233 wanumba

My "Christianity under assault?" Nope. There is a very very very simple liitmus test of a Christian or a non-Christian:
"Ye will know them by their fruit."
Even the Devil will call himself a Christian if it suits his purposes, but it will never be the truth.

Is there any particular reason you feel liberated to be snarky to a perfect stranger who's done you no harm at all? Like you think Christians are not to be trusted or something like that?

Well, the fruit of the German Christians during the Third Reich was millions of dead Jews. That is not to condemn other Christians of that time, who fought bravely against the Reich, or to condemn Christians now for what those German Christians did then.

But I will NOT turn away, and whitewash history and allow this to disappear down the memory hole, just to salve your fractured feelings.

241 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 2:57:38am

re: #235 wanumba

How do you think we felt when we saw this howler today?
""For in the same way they (Christians) persecuted Socrates."

Seems that there are other people out there who detest Christianity who will twist history for their own ends, too.

wanumba intentionally misquotes me in the service of his abject, utter, blatant and slanderous lie.

The post which he is once again endeavoring to twist for his own malignant purposes and ends is here:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And I present it in full:

Blessed are the rational who refuse to swallow dogmatic bullshit, for they will be rewarded with the gifts of logic and reason.
Blessed are the spiritually brave, who refuse to be intimidated by threats of hellfire and damnation, for they have learned to consider the source.
Blessed are those who insist upon empirical evidence, for they will not be deceived as to the truths of contentions.
Blessed are you when people call you evil, and heretical, and blasphemous, and falsely say that you lie about the workings of the world.
Rejoice and be glad, for in the same way they persecuted Socrates, and Giordano Bruno, and Galileo before you. And many remember their names, but few remember the names of their persecuters.

Now, the persecuters include Christians, but are NOT restricted to them; rather, the term refers to ALL of the savagely pious and devout throughout history who would dare to kill people or force them to lie in order to stay alive, in coercive service to their faith. And you will notice that wanumba LYINGLY INSERTED a parenthetical reference to Christianity that was NOT PRESENT in the original post; in other words, he is a lying fuckwad. I fucking HATE fucking liars; especially when they're fucking lying about ME.

242 Egfrow  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 4:28:35am

Well, this information is also a good starting point to resurrect virus that can also be weaponized and where there is no defense. Remnant DNA Segments could even easily be found that may even be racially biased and target specific segments of human populations. This makes such a task much easier when you have a genome map. If anyone does think anyone will stoop to attempting this is historically confused.

243 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:52:27am

re: #242 Egfrow

Well, this information is also a good starting point to resurrect virus that can also be weaponized and where there is no defense. Remnant DNA Segments could even easily be found that may even be racially biased and target specific segments of human populations. This makes such a task much easier when you have a genome map. If anyone does think anyone will stoop to attempting this is historically confused.

I just don't see it. The whole point seems to be that the insertion of these DNA sequences in our genomes rendered us immune to the viruses themselves. That would mean that any retroviruses reconstructed from artifactual sequences in our DNA would be useless as a weapon - unless, that is, they were genetically altered after being reconstructed. But why go to all the trouble of reconstructing a virus you have to genetically alter, when you could just grab and genetically alter any one of dozens of really nasty phages already running around the planet these days, without even having to first reconstruct them from artifactual retroviral DNA sequences?

BTW: since humans only started coming out of Africa less than a hundred thousand years ago, and most likely didn't begin to racially diverge until less than fifty thousand years ago, I sincerely doubt that we're going to find any really gruesome race-specific artifactual retroviral sequences in our genomes.

244 A.W.  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:54:43am

Interesting stuff but... um, isn't this thing about bringing back an extinct virus the kind of crap that sci-fi movies tell us not to do?

Like, um, never build robots that can build other robots.

And never resurrect anything that can't be controlled.

245 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:23:06am

re: #244 A.W.

Interesting stuff but... um, isn't this thing about bringing back an extinct virus the kind of crap that sci-fi movies tell us not to do?

Like, um, never build robots that can build other robots.

And never resurrect anything that can't be controlled.

On the other hand, I can see the justification for resurrecting historical nasties like the deadly 1918 flu, so we can pre-emptively develop a vaccine for its possible variant range.

But I'm not worried about our reconstructing extinct viruses from their trace sequences in our genes. Like I said before, the fact that we have such traces in our genes means that we're immune to any bugs we reconstruct from them.

I do worry about the future of the great apes, tough, if any of that reconstructed human PtERV gets out. They're as susceptible to it as we are to HIV.

246 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:24:15am

ummm...apes, though...

PIMF

247 George guy  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:14:33am

re: #11 jcm

All right, I don't mind dinging comments that contain sloppy arguments, creationist or not, but simply explaining the theological perspective isn't worth a ding. I'm suspecting there are people who go on irrational dinging rampages against every post that sounds possibly creationist, just like the more well-documented converse.

248 SFGoth  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:33:30am

re: #16 Hard Right

As Robin Williams said, God smokes weed.
That 'splains the platypus.

------------
That wasn't weed.

249 SFGoth  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:36:01am

re: #24 reine.de.tout

Wow. That is amazing stuff.

This mentions that HIV is a "retrovirus", like the ones whose remnants they found.

Does that mean it might be possible, one day, if HIV acts like these others, it will no longer be a killer?

I guess it could also provide a clue how to defeat HIV.

A friend of mine is a pediatrician. Around 10 years ago he was explaining how killer viruses kind of adapt themselves to us, become copacetic, and then peter out, which he suspected would happen to AIDS. Interesting. It's all about reaching a steady state. Living organisms, over time, can adapt to a steady state. That's what happened with oxygen, which was poison to all life until animals popped up, and stared smoking cigars.

250 gromster  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:37:08am

Remember the Muslims who got offended over ice cream and Piglet? Darwinists got in a snit over a Starbucks Coffee Cup

251 SFGoth  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:38:27am

The great thing about ID is that it's ultimately absolutely adaptable to new scientific R&D!

252 nikis-knight  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:51:15am

re: #60 Killgore Trout

The article talks about that....

And people still say guided evolution is an oxymoron. The question is, what do viruses want from us? ;)

On topic, this kind of research, or at least the technology that enables it, will almost inevitiably kill lots of people someday. I just hope the benefits are worth it.

253 evilrightwingnut  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 8:09:27am

re: #237 A. van Hilten

You dishonest prick. What part of "a belief in God does not preclude evolution" don't you get, you literalist asshat?

Evangelical Catholics... That's a new one. I guess, by that token, I'm a devout 'Pastafarian Catholic' then.

Sorry, but the only Catholics worthy of that name (who can wear that badge without actually being subjected to all the scorn or ridicule they rightfully deserve) are genuine Roman Catholics who do abide by the Papal doctrine on evolution, among many other things. The rest are better described as 'cafeteria Catholics', if they are to be considered Catholics at all.

An 'Evangelical Catholic' — WTF is that? A heretic by any other name?

It's kind of hard to take any of your arguments seriously when you have to resort to name calling like asshat and prick. Only thing that accomplishes is to show your lack of intelligence since you have to interject insults to make up for the arguments you want to make... asshat

254 Charles  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 9:02:04am

re: #250 gromster

Remember the Muslims who got offended over ice cream and Piglet? Darwinists got in a snit over a Starbucks Coffee Cup

Since you've been posting Discovery Institute (and other creationist) propaganda in LGF comments, it figures you'd approve of seeing their propaganda elsewhere.

255 Charles  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 9:04:51am

A. Van Hilten: Please rein in the insults and profanities.

256 nikis-knight  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 10:11:46am

This was a very interesting article, by the way. Thanks Charles.

257 J.S.  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 10:23:56am

re: #256 nikis-knight

As somewhat off-topic, there's an excellent book out there which describes the relationship between parasites and hosts...(that's "Parasite Rex" by Carl Zimmer). (Carl Zimmer also has a blog at the Discover Magazine site...he addressed that issue which was also covered here at LGF, about the "wrist on Tiktaalik", etc.)

258 garycooper  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 10:58:35am

I've been thinking about this article's subject since last night, as it really is a revolutionary (to me, anyway) new way of looking at the processes of evolution. I can see why the scientist profiled is so het-up over the implications.

Just occurred to me, that a lot of the research is being funded by and aimed at finding a cure for AIDS. This horrible, global pandemic may turn out to be the driving-force behind the scientific and commercial blitz that eventually comes up with the answers to fill in the blanks, in the theory of evolution, and of course lead to all kinds of new applications in the fields of medicine, other commercial uses including farming and livestock management, not to mention military applications.

In this way, the calamity of AIDS may prove to be as important to the field of genetic research, as WWII and the Cold War proved essential in the race to the moon, and outer space exploration in general. The amount of new technologies engendered by the military and space programs of the last 50+ years are nigh on to countless.

The Moral Of The Story, according to my pal Aesop, is akin to the one told in "The Crow And The Pitcher," which illustrates the adage, "Necessity is the mother of invention."

259 Slumbering Behemoth  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 1:18:16pm

Heh, some of the comments on this thread remind me of the first segment in this piece of humor: [NSFW Language] 5 Terrible Life Lessons Hollywood Loves to Teach You (#5. Technology is Dangerous and Will Eventually Destroy Us)

For all the lamentations about the depredations of 'Hollyweird', it seems some are still willing and eager to suck up their fictional "OMG SCIENCE WILL KILL US ALL" meme.

/#3 is pretty funny as well

260 A. van Hilten  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 2:45:22pm

re: #255 Charles

A. Van Hilten: Please rein in the insults and profanities.

Sorry Charles. I didn't mean to step over the line.

Some people can really get on your nerves. My apologies for going overboard.

261 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 2:59:02pm

re: #251 SFGoth

The great thing about ID is that it's ultimately absolutely adaptable to new scientific R&D!

I only downdinged you because I couldn't find your sarc tag...

262 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 3:03:45pm

re: #249 SFGoth

A friend of mine is a pediatrician. Around 10 years ago he was explaining how killer viruses kind of adapt themselves to us, become copacetic, and then peter out, which he suspected would happen to AIDS. Interesting. It's all about reaching a steady state. Living organisms, over time, can adapt to a steady state. That's what happened with oxygen, which was poison to all life until animals popped up, and stared smoking cigars.

This sort of thing has happened before.

When syphilis first hit Europe, it ravaged the continent. These days, it has domesticated itself into a much slower, less debilitating killer. The nastier strains killed off or severely sickened their hosts before they could sexually spread the disease ('reproduce' it), but the milder strains allowed that to happen. Natural selection in action, choosing the most survivable mutational forms.

263 Salamantis  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 3:09:32pm

re: #253 evilrightwingnut

It's kind of hard to take any of your arguments seriously when you have to resort to name calling like asshat and prick. Only thing that accomplishes is to show your lack of intelligence since you have to interject insults to make up for the arguments you want to make... asshat

Then why do you upding a proven liar, and downding the person who proves him to be so, if your moral standards are so easily offended? Or are those standards selectively offended, and only by those with whom you disagree on creationism?

Nimrod.

264 wanumba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 10:07:58pm

Well, that's a charming wrap up. Apologies to Charles, but we don't rate one. We don't rate one because you don't believe we deserve any dignity. So, given that we don't rate common courtesy, was that a sincere apology to Charles or the obligatory suck up CYA so you can keep posting?
Why don't we get a contrite sorry? Perhaps because by infallible historical reporting by our time-morphing Socrates fan, ("Well, if Christians had been there, they WOULD have killed him, because, like you know, Christians can't be trusted or something...) Christians were NAZIs and so Christians killed the Jews in Germany? And we objected to that gross mischaracterization?
Hitler lied to everyone under the sun to deceive everyone so he could grasp his power, and when everyone, including naive CHristians and Jews who'd never in a million years could conceive of what that man was capable of realized what trap they'd allowed themselves to be captured in, it was too late.
Historical precedent for ANYBODY like Hitler in Europe that ANYONE could point to? A wrecked Germany after WWI, crawling away from hyperinflation and crushing debt, looking for recovery and dignity falls for a lying meglomaniac? Oh, hindsight is 20/20. Condemn them all for not being clever enough to have seen it. Fault them for not being soothsayers and mind readers.
But what do we know? We've actually had to work on numerous, not one, but numerous frightening occasions with ethnic and religious cleansing and emergency humanitarian aid to evacuate, feed and provide medical care to people who've been trapped, beaten abused and terrorized, so we have experienced this sort of thing up front. Most people in the world are not anything more than average, nice people who go to work and raise their families. They don't believe their own neighbors could be worked up into a frenzy by words, accusations, denigrations, worked up enough to kill. It starts with making fun, then insulting, then pointing out these people have a dangerous past, can't be trusted. Have you ever had to hide people in your house- to save them from mobs? We have.
Feel empowered when you insult folks like us? In your benevolent rational worldview, based on Reason, we're morons, liars, literal asshats. Maybe we shouldn't post at reputable blogs, maybe we shouldn't work as doctors, nurses, pilots or engineers. Counted already at least five different posters who've exclaimed that they'd never want a Christian doctor, for if they talk the Bible seriously, they can't possibly know anything about science or medicine. Yet medicine has LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG been a field in which Christians have and continue to serve humanity in obedience to their God, with expert skills, caring and love for their patients. Suddenly, those sort of people are not to be trusted? Why? Their Medical schools thought they were qualified when they fullfilled all their requirement for their diplomas. You smarter than the med schools? Ah, the litmus test. Do you believe in Evolution or ID or Creation? There is one right answer or you lose your job. It was never a problem before, never asked, but suddenly it seems to be now. There are some of the worlds best surgeons right now, operating on shipboard for surgeries like tumors, cleft palates, club feet, cataracts, all sorts of corrective work, bringing modern medicine to the worlds' poorest people. And THIS after scores of missionaries spent months trekking to remote villages to find people who needed help and transporting them to the coast. Are they all morons? Asshats? What have you done today that even holds a candle to what they are doing NOW? It's morning for them in Africa, surgery is open.

The fruit of taking "They are not to be trusted" to heart.

265 Devilzadvocate  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 10:58:09pm

Aren't Europeans 15% immune to the black plague precisely because of this process, and isn't that how they discovered the very few who are immune to HIV? Has anyone heard of this and does anyone have any links on the subject?

266 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 12:45:56am

re: #264 wanumba

Well, that's a charming wrap up. Apologies to Charles, but we don't rate one. We don't rate one because you don't believe we deserve any dignity. So, given that we don't rate common courtesy, was that a sincere apology to Charles or the obligatory suck up CYA so you can keep posting?

It may not be polite to call someone what they have in fact proven themselves to be, but the truth, by definition, cann be neither slander nor insult. And you have proven yourself to be a fucking liar, because you fucking lied about me. As I conclusively demonstrated in post# 241 in this thread.

Why don't we get a contrite sorry? Perhaps because by infallible historical reporting by our time-morphing Socrates fan, ("Well, if Christians had been there, they WOULD have killed him, because, like you know, Christians can't be trusted or something...) Christians were NAZIs and so Christians killed the Jews in Germany? And we objected to that gross mischaracterization?

Christians comprised 80+ % of the population of Third Reich Germany, and Hitler got the overwhelming majority of the popular vote. You figure it out. Obviously, during that time, most German Christians either WERE Nazis, or SUPPORTED them. I'm not sorry that an embarrassing historical episode chaps your superpiously self-righteous ass. And I neither condemned ALL Christians of that time (many fought for both the Allies and the Soviets against Hitler) nor do I condemn them all NOW; but I fucking DO condemn those who burned Giordano Bruno, I condemn those who made Galileo choose betwen lying and death, and I firmly believe that if the same people who forced those choices upon those two martyrs of conscience had ruled in ancient Greece, thy would have had no compunction whatsoever about doing the precisely selfsame thing to Socrates that the Athenians did, any more than if the selfsame people who forced Socrates to drink hemlock had been in ecclesiastical power in Medieval Rome, they would have done exactly what the Roman Catholic Church did to Bruno and Galileo. It has to do less with a particular religion than it has to do with a coercive mindset that arrogates unto itself Divine license to torture and kill those who, in their eyes, transgress orthodoxy, either by what they say, or, in the case of the antisemitism that festered in Germany since Martin Luther published On The Jews And Their Lies back in 1534, who they are born as. And acolytes of ALL religions are susceptible to those particular seductive temptations. Including, historically speaking, yours - many times over. Deal with it.

Hitler lied to everyone under the sun to deceive everyone so he could grasp his power, and when everyone, including naive CHristians and Jews who'd never in a million years could conceive of what that man was capable of realized what trap they'd allowed themselves to be captured in, it was too late.
Historical precedent for ANYBODY like Hitler in Europe that ANYONE could point to? A wrecked Germany after WWI, crawling away from hyperinflation and crushing debt, looking for recovery and dignity falls for a lying meglomaniac? Oh, hindsight is 20/20. Condemn them all for not being clever enough to have seen it. Fault them for not being soothsayers and mind readers.

Oh come ON! You need to read Hitler's Willing Executioners by Daniel Goldhagen, and educate yourself:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Or maybe you just can't handle the truth.

To be continued...

267 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 1:04:13am

re: #264 wanumba

But what do we know? We've actually had to work on numerous, not one, but numerous frightening occasions with ethnic and religious cleansing and emergency humanitarian aid to evacuate, feed and provide medical care to people who've been trapped, beaten abused and terrorized, so we have experienced this sort of thing up front. Most people in the world are not anything more than average, nice people who go to work and raise their families. They don't believe their own neighbors could be worked up into a frenzy by words, accusations, denigrations, worked up enough to kill. It starts with making fun, then insulting, then pointing out these people have a dangerous past, can't be trusted. Have you ever had to hide people in your house- to save them from mobs? We have.

Well, throughout history, people have had to have been protected from marauding mobs of members of a lot of different religions, including Christianity. And sometimes they weren't protected. And religious massacres ensued. Just look at what the Christian Serbs have done only recently. They herded 6000 people out of Srebrenica in front of UN peacekeepers, marched them into the mountains, dug trenches with bulldozers, machinegunned them into the trenches, covered them with lime, and buried them. They built the first concentration camps in Europe since the demise of the Third Reich. Their snipers killed more than 1300 children during the four-year-long Siege of Sarajevo alone. And that's just counting the children. The innocent children.

Feel empowered when you insult folks like us? In your benevolent rational worldview, based on Reason, we're morons, liars, literal asshats. Maybe we shouldn't post at reputable blogs, maybe we shouldn't work as doctors, nurses, pilots or engineers. Counted already at least five different posters who've exclaimed that they'd never want a Christian doctor, for if they talk the Bible seriously, they can't possibly know anything about science or medicine. Yet medicine has LONG LONG LONG LONG LONG been a field in which Christians have and continue to serve humanity in obedience to their God, with expert skills, caring and love for their patients. Suddenly, those sort of people are not to be trusted? Why? Their Medical schools thought they were qualified when they fullfilled all their requirement for their diplomas. You smarter than the med schools? Ah, the litmus test. Do you believe in Evolution or ID or Creation? There is one right answer or you lose your job. It was never a problem before, never asked, but suddenly it seems to be now. There are some of the worlds best surgeons right now, operating on shipboard for surgeries like tumors, cleft palates, club feet, cataracts, all sorts of corrective work, bringing modern medicine to the worlds' poorest people. And THIS after scores of missionaries spent months trekking to remote villages to find people who needed help and transporting them to the coast. Are they all morons? Asshats? What have you done today that even holds a candle to what they are doing NOW? It's morning for them in Africa, surgery is open.

The fruit of taking "They are not to be trusted" to heart.

I'd be a shitload happier if you would just stop fucking lying about me. But I have a strong hunch that that is far too much to hope for from the likes of you, for it seems to come quite easily to you; almost like second nature. After all, what's a little taqqiyah-esque Ninth Commandment breaking if it's done against those Satanic Atheistic Darwinian Evolutionists, for the Greater Glory of God? Surely He will be well pleased by the actions of His good and faithful servant, and you will be handsomely rewarded in Heaven for fighting the Good Fight...by whatever mendacious means were available.

268 A. van Hilten  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 1:34:03am

re: #264 wanumba

Hitler lied to everyone under the sun to deceive everyone so he could grasp his power, and when everyone, including naive CHristians and Jews who'd never in a million years could conceive of what that man was capable of realized what trap they'd allowed themselves to be captured in, it was too late.
Historical precedent for ANYBODY like Hitler in Europe that ANYONE could point to? A wrecked Germany after WWI, crawling away from hyperinflation and crushing debt, looking for recovery and dignity falls for a lying meglomaniac? Oh, hindsight is 20/20. Condemn them all for not being clever enough to have seen it. Fault them for not being soothsayers and mind readers.

Cry us a river, will ya?

Those poor Germans. Now you are "Making up excuses for a past uncomfortable event or behavior" (Nazi Germany, no less) and misrepresenting other posters' views regarding Christianity (Charles and Salamantis come to mind). Which pretty much amounts to projection —i.e. "Repressing one's thoughts, feelings or urges [in your case, re: tolerance for dissenting voices] and attributing them to someone else."

What next?

BTW, is that the Christian thing to do, dabbling in historical revisionism? I think not.

And, yes, I apologized to Charles, because this is his blog and he has earned my utter respect. (That's something you haven't accomplished yet.) I post here under his terms and conditions and he has a right to tell me how he expects me to behave and to call me out on it whenever I don't.

Want me to scourge myself? 'Cause it ain't gonna happen, buddy.

269 Logic Probe  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 5:26:07am

re: #36 Cicero05

I'd be interested to hear how the ID types would explain this.

Isn't it obvious that, like those "fossils" and "dinosaur bones", it was created that way as a test of faith?

/sarc

270 Sabnen  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 8:10:50am

Great Article! Very intersting. To think how we have evolved in so many different ways.

Regarding the safety of the research . . .

"Harmit Malik told me in Seattle. “We didn’t take it lightly, and I don’t think any of our colleagues did, either.’’ He repeatedly pointed out that each virus was assembled in such a way that it could reproduce only once. “If you can’t apply the knowledge, you shouldn’t do the experiment,” he said.

271 wanumba  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 9:57:50pm

re: #267 Salamantis
re: #268 A. van Hilten

Charming! You all do realize that we do this sort of thing just so everyone who reads this gets to see how well you handle a debate. Snarling and cursing goes over very well with the general readership and gives the impression to the casual peruser that Charles has allowed grotesque bigotry to find a niche. So, frankly we haven't a care in the world whether you want to act all offended and pretend that we demanded you do something dopey like scourge yourself or not.
We just pointed out that you don't believe you have to apologize to us at all, because you don't respect us, so you won't. So, don't claim any moral high ground on ANYTHING if you practice discrimination.
.
Socrates. Uh, B.C. means something. We were all laughing about this today, absolutely hilarious. Christians persecuted Socrates, but we're supposed to think you're not biased?
And Godwin's Law. Invoking NAZIs in a debate indicates a weak position. Also, not showing from WHERE quotes of Christians=NAZIs comes from so that all readers can make a determination as to how non-partisan an article source is. Plenty of athetist-promoting and pagan-promoting sites provide very slanted histories to denigrate Christians, using the Third Reich. And we ALWAYS use the word Pagan in the classical sense, never lightly or frivolously.
In fact, on this very blog have posters like BabbaZee provided extensive links to debunk such slanted histories, particularly against the Catholic Church. The NAZI smear is an old one, and has been debunked.

So, do your best to turn LGF into a pathetic extension of KOS.

272 wanumba  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 10:08:12pm

re: #263 Salamantis
You called evilrightwingnut Nimrod?

As in mighty warrior KING Nimrod?

So, you were affirming that evilrightwinger was correct to point out you were being unnecessarily rude to wanumba?

273 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 10:20:26pm

re: #272 wanumba

You called evilrightwingnut Nimrod?

As in mighty warrior KING Nimrod?

So, you were affirming that evilrightwinger was correct to point out you were being unnecessarily rude to wanumba?

[Link: www.urbandictionary.com...]

274 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 10:56:36pm

re: #271 wanumba

re: #268 A. van Hilten

Charming! You all do realize that we do this sort of thing just so everyone who reads this gets to see how well you handle a debate. Snarling and cursing goes over very well with the general readership and gives the impression to the casual peruser that Charles has allowed grotesque bigotry to find a niche. So, frankly we haven't a care in the world whether you want to act all offended and pretend that we demanded you do something dopey like scourge yourself or not.
We just pointed out that you don't believe you have to apologize to us at all, because you don't respect us, so you won't. So, don't claim any moral high ground on ANYTHING if you practice discrimination.

You would have to rise inestimible in my opinion to merit or deserve my contempt, and the only thing people have to do to see why is to reference posts# 241, 266 and 267 on this thread, where I prove beyond a shadow of a rational doubt that you are a fucking liar, because you fucking lied about me. Decent and ethical people care far less about cursing than they do about lying; by that standard, you are above a murderer, a rapist, a torturer and a thief, but not above much else.

Socrates. Uh, B.C. means something. We were all laughing about this today, absolutely hilarious. Christians persecuted Socrates, but we're supposed to think you're not biased?

Once again you fucking lie, you fucking liar. All people have to do to see what a fucking liar you are is to reference posts #241, 266 and 267 where I conclusively prove what a fucking liar you are, you fucking liar. People can check them out for themselves and clearly see that I am referring to a mindset rather than a religion; a coercive, totalitarian mindset that has been found in all religions, and that is found today in the attempts of the Disco Institute shills to force-feed their sectarian religious dogmas into the minds of other peoples' children in public high school science classes. I cannot believe that you are actually too dense, obtuse, moronic and imbecilic for this incontrovertible fact to penetrate your neanderthaline brow ridges and make its weary way into your slow and atrophied brain. If you are indeed that thick and dim, then I hazard to say that you are alone among readers of this site in being so utterly bereft of cognitive prerequisites. However, I think you are just playing dumb, when you are actually malignant.

And Godwin's Law. Invoking NAZIs in a debate indicates a weak position. Also, not showing from WHERE quotes of Christians=NAZIs comes from so that all readers can make a determination as to how non-partisan an article source is. Plenty of athetist-promoting and pagan-promoting sites provide very slanted histories to denigrate Christians, using the Third Reich. And we ALWAYS use the word Pagan in the classical sense, never lightly or frivolously.

It is not a violation of Godwin's Law to invoke Nazis when one is not speaking analogically or metaphorically because genuine historical Third Reich Nazis were actually involved. As they indeed were in this case. And I have furnished the reference website URL before, and I furnish it again in the next post, as well as furnish access to the site's bona fides. Unlike you, I solidly support my contentions, rather than transparently and provably lying about people like you lied about me, you fucking liar.

BTW: Did I mention that you're a fucking liar?

Continued next post...

275 Salamantis  Tue, Jul 22, 2008 11:20:16pm
In fact, on this very blog have posters like BabbaZee provided extensive links to debunk such slanted histories, particularly against the Catholic Church. The NAZI smear is an old one, and has been debunked.

It is no smear, it is historical fact, and it is coming from a CHRISTIAN site. In fact, it is published by the same people who put out Christianity Today Magazine, perhaps the planet's leading Christian periodical. Not a head-in-the-sand, my-people-can-do-no-wrong, history-and-truth-denying site like you would most probably frequent, but an honest, decent, responsible Christian site, posted by Christian people who accept the mistakes that some of their co-religionists have made in the past, regret them, repent of them, atone for them in their hearts and on their sleeves, and swear never to forget them, for fear of repeating them, for as Santayana said, those who do not learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them. I invite BabbaZee, or anyone else, to check out this site. I think that any objective investigator would have to admit that it is one of the best Christian sites on the entire Web, and that the information that they furnish is quite impeccable and unimpeachable.

Here is their article about the Nazi history of the German Christian church on the site:

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

And here is their homepage:

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

Quote:

Glimpses of Christian History is a leading site for the history of the Christian religion and church history through the centuries, including Jesus Christ and his apostles, early Christianity, Christian women, famous sayings, and useful books. We also issue the colorful and factual Glimpses.

Here is their index:

[Link: chi.gospelcom.net...]

And here are some of the videos that they put out to help parents educate their children in Christian values:

[Link: chitorch.gospelcom.net...]

So, do your best to turn LGF into a pathetic extension of KOS.

No, the people who labor to do something like that, in an attempt to generate heat, disperse smoke, divert gazes and hide the light when inconvenient facts and uncomfortable truths make their appearance, are the Serbs who bleated that it was an insult against all Christendom to claim that they had committed genocide in Bosnia, but if it did happen, then it was okay, because the massacred were Muslims. They were people like Fjordman and sites like the Brussels Journal and Gates of Vienna who claimed that we had to embrace Christian eurofascists such as the Vlaams Belang in order to struggle against Islamofascists. And they are the apologists for the theocratic fundamentalist shills of the Disco Institute and their Islamocreationist allies the Harun Yahya. People like you.

And did I mention that posts #241, 266 and 267 prove that you are a fucking liar, because you fucking lied about me? And you can't even recognize a genuine, honest, decent, responsible Christian site when you see one. Some fucking example you are.

276 wanumba  Wed, Jul 23, 2008 2:22:23am

Indistinguishable from KOS.

277 Jimmah  Wed, Jul 23, 2008 4:11:47am

"Evolution through natural processes? I'd rather believe that every virus was lovingly hand-crafted by Jesus"

/creationist

278 Salamantis  Wed, Jul 23, 2008 5:38:20am

re: #276 wanumba

Indistinguishable from KOS.

That would be you, wanumba. Unlike you and the KosKidz, I do not malevolently lie about people, and also unlike you, I support my contentions with verifiable facts and credible references.

279 karl__lembke  Fri, Jul 25, 2008 1:58:14pm

One other bit from the article that I think is worth looking at:

In 1968, Robin Weiss, who is now a professor of viral oncology at University College London, found endogenous retroviruses in the embryos of healthy chickens. When he suggested that they were not only benign but might actually perform a critical function in placental development, molecular biologists laughed. “When I first submitted my results on a novel ‘endogenous’ envelope, suggesting the existence of an integrated retrovirus in normal embryo cells, the manuscript was roundly rejected,’’


The Intelligent Design / Intelligent Origin Theorists (ID/IOTs) claim their work goes unrecognized because it flies in the face of the standard theory, and is thus uniformly rejected. Weiss experienced that for real. His response: do more research.

He moved to the Pahang jungle of Malaysia and began living with a group of Orang Asli tribesmen. Red jungle fowl, an ancestor species of chickens, were plentiful there, and the tribe was skilled at trapping them. After collecting and testing both eggs and blood samples, Weiss was able to identify versions of the same viruses. Similar tests were soon carried out on other animals. The discovery helped mark the beginning of a new approach to biology.


Real scientists, like Weiss, offer specific predictions. They can offer specifics about what researchers can expect to find if they look in the right place. Weiss predicted a related species of the chicken would have similar retroviral fragments in its genome. He went and looked for them, and there they were!
When the ID/IOTs do something similar, they'll have a lot more credibility in scientific circles.


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