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David Irving Spreads Holocaust Denial in US

Mon, Jul 21, 2008 at 5:30:20 pm PDT

No one seems to be asking the important question: who’s responsible for letting scumbag Holocaust denier David Irving give a speech at a Catholic church on the Upper East Side of Manhattan? Upper East Side Church Hosts a Holocaust Denier.

A Holocaust-denying historian appeared this month at an Upper East Side church, where he reiterated his claim that the Holocaust never happened.

David Irving, 70, spoke Wednesday at St. Stephen of Hungary Parish, a Catholic church on East 82nd Street. A clergyman there said the church was not aware of Mr. Irving’s views on the Holocaust and was told that a small group wanted the space to discuss a book.

“We had no idea whatsoever, and in fact they never told us the nature of their meeting,” Father Eric Carpine told The New York Sun. “We would never sponsor anyone who would ... discriminate against people.”

For some reason, the hardest of the hard left moonbats are opposed to Irving and his nonsense. Anarchist site infoshop.com has this account of the event from protesters:

Initially canceled at its original venue due to a phone jam initiated by Anti-Racist Action, Holocaust revisionist David Irving was able to dupe yet another New York City venue into hosting his hateful speaking tour. However, thanks to the great investigative work of members of Anti-Racist Action and our friends, we were able to properly greet David Irving and his fascist guests when they arrived at their back-up location - St. Stephen of Hungary Parish, 414 East 82nd.

Even with only about 10 hours notice, ARA was able to pull together a counter-demonstration outside the church and expose David Irving for the fascist, hateful neo-Nazi scumbag that he is.

Early Wednesday morning, Irving had announced that he would be speaking at Primavera Restaurant, 1578 1st Ave. Calls to the restaurant resulted in ARA realizing that Irving was just using Primavera as a meet-up location, and that the restaurant was not complicit in booking the Holocaust denier.

Arriving outside Primavera Restaurant at 6:30pm, we immediately noticed two people redirecting people from the restaurant to a location down the street. Not being very bright, these two Irving supporters were more then happy to inform ARA members were the talk was actually happening. We proceeded down the block to St. Stephen of Hungary Parish, but not before confronting the redirect people - taking their clipboard and fliers, and chasing them away from outside of the restaurant.

With that taken care of, we then concentrated our efforts on the church. Immediately upon arriving at the church, we took down the signs outside announcing Irving’s lecture, closed the doors and positioned ourselves in front of the entrance.

As the first people began to arrive, we informed them that the David Irving event had been canceled. Some people tried to force their way past us, all with no results. One person - so angered by our presence - resorted to pushing and shoving and typical neo-Nazi insults - “communist,” “homosexual” and so on. He even (tried) to grab at the camera we were using to take the picture of every person entering the event, and when that did not work, he (tried) spitting on him.

Wow. For once I find myself on the same side as infoshop.com. Mark this day in the record books.

But I’d still like to know who’s behind this US tour for a Holocaust denier. Irving’s not doing this by himself.

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604 comments

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1 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:31:22pm

Thank Goodness I left a long time ago. My father...on the other hand...is going to be pissed.

2 coquimbojoe  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:31:55pm

This is amazing. Especially from a church. they should know better.

3 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:32:49pm

anunder tug anuder smuck both the commies and nazi's murdered real anarchists.

4 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:34:02pm

i got arrested at a anti nazi demo in skokie ill. frankly some of the leftist on my side of the police lines were just as anti semitic as the nazi scum.

5 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:34:42pm

Muahhahaha :

A professor of Modern Jewish and Holocaust studies at Emory University, Deborah Lipstadt, said she hopes that Mr. Irving's tour of the United States is met with deafening silence. Mr. Irving sued Professor Lipstadt and Penguin Books for libel when she called him a Holocaust denier in her book. He lost the case in 2002 and filed for bankruptcy when he couldn't pay his legal fees.

Much harder to file for bankruptcy a second time and under the new laws, let's hope he tries this shit again.

6 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:36:26pm
"We had no idea whatsoever, and in fact they never told us the nature of their meeting," Father Eric Carpine told The New York Sun. "We would never sponsor anyone who would ... discriminate against people."

This is really disappointing. Why did they not think to ask what the nature of the meeting was? It's just naive to think everyone has good intentions when requesting a a space to host them. Don't know what the group is about? For Pete's sake- ask or dig yourself.

7 quickjustice  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:36:49pm

The church's denials notwithstanding, someone at the church agreed to host these people. Hungary was a Nazi ally during WWII, and its Jewish community wiped out.

You can applaud this anarchist organization's extreme methods, I guess, until they're turned upon Republicans. Vocal protests and ridicule would have been enough.

8 WhiteRasta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:36:59pm

It seems to be all about the (Soddomite) money.

Who do you think is funding this lowlife skank?

Your gas tank and my gas tank money. That's who.

9 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:37:23pm

Someone please invite Mr Irving to give a speech in Germany.
Then he can be locked up for a while.
Maybe he can write a book about his struggles while in prison.

10 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:37:24pm

Mixed emotions. what he says is objectionable and should have limited access for expression. That said; I'm not thrilled about the actions taken to intimidate and threaten. Better would be to counter with facts and not physical attacks. I've seen laughter and disdain work when threats did not.

11 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:38:10pm

Church's and their halls are often informally booked on short notice. I believe the priest. This was not an endorsement.

12 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:38:45pm

re: #5 Thanos

Muahhahaha :


Much harder to file for bankruptcy a second time and under the new laws, let's hope he tries this shit again.

This is the way to silence these fools. That also worked against the neo-nazis if i recall.

13 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:38:46pm

re: #2 coquimbojoe

This is amazing. Especially from a church. they should know better.

People with these ideas are good at hiding the truth. It just goes to show you that if you run any public establishment you have to be extremely careful about how associates themselves with you.

This could have been anyone crazy lying their way into the Church, NAMBLA, 9/11 Truth or some KOSkiddy haters. I don't blame the church for this, but I have to agree with Charles that the extremely-aggressive tactics brought a smile to my face when turned against such human waste as a holocaust denier.

Of course, I'm the sort who'd advocate violence against anyone with the audacity to spit on an American Veteran. so maybe I'm not the best person to ask about this sort of thing.

Just saying...sometimes getting your head knocked in leads to enlightenment.

14 Charles  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:39:02pm

I can't help suspecting that the church was the intended venue in the first place, and the restaurant was a red herring.

15 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:39:29pm

This is shocking.

The church doesn't strike me as the type. Still, they have some 'splainin to do.

16 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:39:44pm

re: #14 Charles

I can't help suspecting that the church was the intended venue in the first place, and the restaurant was a red herring.

Kind of like the Tara Thai deke?

17 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:39:45pm

re: #4 yochanan

i got arrested at a anti nazi demo in skokie ill. frankly some of the leftist on my side of the police lines were just as anti semitic as the nazi scum.

Fight the good fight, brother.

18 conservativeChick  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:40:15pm

It's Manhattan, did you really expect anything less from that leftist rat hole.

19 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:41:19pm
A Holocaust-denying historian

Is that like a Calculus-denying mathematician?

20 EC Marm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:41:28pm

re: #6 Sharmuta

This is really disappointing. Why did they not think to ask what the nature of the meeting was? It's just naive to think everyone has good intentions when requesting a a space to host them. Don't know what the group is about? For Pete's sake- ask or dig yourself.


Group functions that can generate revenue are one way to pay for multi-million dollar mortgages in times of declining church attendance and contributions. It probably got sold to the church as a completely different type of function. I mean, people that can deny the Holocaust can lie/obfuscate about other things, too.

21 Dolphin  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:41:42pm

re: #14 Charles

That was the impression I got when reading it.

22 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:42:23pm

You can hate on me if you like, but... I can't agree with the extreme methods of infoshop to block this. Everyone's got the right to speak, even these miscreant assholes who are evil. Taking picture's, outing them, all cool. Blocking entry? Tearing down signs?
Next time it might be you.

23 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:42:36pm

re: #10 jcw46

Mixed emotions. what he says is objectionable and should have limited access for expression. That said; I'm not thrilled about the actions taken to intimidate and threaten. Better would be to counter with facts and not physical attacks. I've seen laughter and disdain work when threats did not.

It does
work. But, I'm not one who believes blood libel should be covered under Free Speech.

24 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:42:37pm

In six months, we'll have people denying that Bush was ever president.

Heck, Nancy Pelosi has already been saying that for the last two years.

25 theheat  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:43:42pm

Funny, how when it's an American church, they get a pass. Anywhere else it would be religious "extremists" that gave face time to jackasses like this.

26 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:43:59pm

in my youth i got arrested for fighting with nazi's my wife had to bail me out of jail and she was 10 months preg. funny when i ended up in court the judge, my lawyer and the states att. were speaking in yiddish i remember them saying something about giving me a medal. of course that was all off the record.

27 quickjustice  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:44:36pm

re: #18 conservativeChick

Something like 90% of the population of Manhattan were not born in the U.S. That makes for a very eclectic crowd. You get lots of "old country" attitudes as a result. I've met raving Nazis in Manhattan, and rabid leftists, all of them foreign-born.

28 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:45:17pm
29 Alouette  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:45:34pm
who’s responsible for letting scumbag Holocaust denier David Irving give a speech at a Catholic church on the Upper East Side of Manhattan?

Fat Puke cannon?

Just a wild-assed guess.

30 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:45:47pm

re: #27 quickjustice

on staten island or boro park you would get a fight.

31 Charles  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:46:12pm

re: #22 Thanos

You can hate on me if you like, but... I can't agree with the extreme methods of infoshop to block this. Everyone's got the right to speak, even these miscreant assholes who are evil. Taking picture's, outing them, all cool. Blocking entry? Tearing down signs?
Next time it might be you.

That's why they're anarchists. They're bad. They destroy stuff. Oooh. Booga booga.

32 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:46:39pm

re: #28 buzzsawmonkey

true.

33 Alouette  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:46:50pm

re: #30 yochanan

on staten island or boro park you would get a fight.

I fricken hate Boro Park.

34 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:47:12pm

re: #22 Thanos

You can hate on me if you like, but... I can't agree with the extreme methods of infoshop to block this. Everyone's got the right to speak, even these miscreant assholes who are evil. Taking picture's, outing them, all cool. Blocking entry? Tearing down signs?
Next time it might be you.

Again...I have to agree with you on principle alone. Still...I think I'm forming some extremist views on justice these days. Maybe it's my disenllusionment with our current system which to me seems obviously broken. Hmm...maybe I need to read a few books before I start advocating mob-executions of child rapists...

35 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:47:36pm

re: #31 Charles

frankly nazi's want me dead I DON'T GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE EVERYBODY GOT A RIGHT TO SPEAK F''' UM.

36 Lauraf  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:48:03pm

re: #9 Kosh's Shadow

re: #9 Kosh's Shadow

Someone please invite Mr Irving to give a speech in Germany.
Then he can be locked up for a while.
Maybe he can write a book about his struggles while in prison.

He was in prison in Austria not that long ago. He "renounced" his Holocaust denial in order to get a reduction in his sentence. I wonder what would happen if he set foot in Austria again.

37 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:48:33pm

re: #20 EC Marm

Group functions that can generate revenue are one way to pay for multi-million dollar mortgages in times of declining church attendance and contributions. It probably got sold to the church as a completely different type of function. I mean, people that can deny the Holocaust can lie/obfuscate about other things, too.

But this is the information age- a simple internet search would have outed this man as a Holocaust denier. And selling yourself out in a desperate attempt for money to a nazi apologist is, I'm sure, not the image any Catholic Church would truly want to convey.

38 quickjustice  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:48:35pm

re: #30 yochanan

In the Jewish neighborhoods of NYC, you learn to defend yourself early, or you get walked over. Being respected is much more important than being loved.

39 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:48:51pm

re: #33 Alouette

I AM NOT A NU YAWKER i could careless aobut the place the point was that it is a jewish hood. and nazi;s are not welcome.

chicago used to have jewish hoods not any more.

40 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:48:56pm
41 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:49:15pm

re: #22 Thanos

You can hate on me if you like, but... I can't agree with the extreme methods of infoshop to block this. Everyone's got the right to speak, even these miscreant assholes who are evil. Taking picture's, outing them, all cool. Blocking entry? Tearing down signs?
Next time it might be you.

The best thing is to ignore. These types shouldn't have a venue provided, no one should show up etc... let 'em rant on a street corner.

42 winston06  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:49:26pm

Who let him in? The Communists, holocaust deniers in the State Dept.

43 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:49:32pm

re: #26 yochanan

in my youth i got arrested for fighting with nazi's my wife had to bail me out of jail and she was 10 months preg. funny when i ended up in court the judge, my lawyer and the states att. were speaking in yiddish i remember them saying something about giving me a medal. of course that was all off the record.


/good story..please tell more..

44 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:50:06pm

re: #38 quickjustice

same thing happened here with my sons. i came to chicago as a aduilt.

45 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:50:11pm

Anarchists = Stalinists that do drugs and don't bathe. Nothing heroic here, just the old Brown/Red turf-fighting among socialists.

I'm sure the crusty losers at Infoshop see no difference between creeps like Irving, and ourselves. As one poster said above -- wait until they turn on us.

46 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:50:54pm

re: #41 JCM

The best thing is to ignore. These types shouldn't have a venue provided, no one should show up etc... let 'em rant on a street corner.

I believe in "fighting words".

47 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:52:33pm

re: #42 winston06

Holocaust denial is not a reason to deny Irving entry into the US. Free speech still counts for something here in the States, even if the Europeans sense of free speech isn't so free.

I'm more interested in knowing how and why the church let him speak there in the first place. No one ran a google search to find out who this guy was? Heck, even a basic search would have revealed his anti Semitism and revisionist history.

48 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:52:45pm
49 sojerofgod  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:52:49pm

re: #7 quickjustice

I'm sorry, I can't approve of the leftists disruptive tactics under any circumstances. Frankly I don't like the bastard, don't agree, approve or think it is anything but hatred and bigotry, but who gives the right to these direct-action types to say who can or can't speak? The church may very well have been caught flat-footed on this; I have worked in IT at churches before and the internal organization of many churches is not real hot. In some instances complete strangers can book rooms at churches via a website, and don't have to pass any sort of screening at all. The church usually gets a nominal fee, so it ain't about the money particularly.
Allowing a bunch of soreheads to shut down speech, no matter how reprehensible, violates a basic premise of our nation, namely, the first amendment. If that speech is awful or ugly, lying crap or complete crazy, it is still protected.

Let the sunlight provide its purifying disinfectant. We don't need pricks with attitude to tell us what we cannot hear.

50 So?  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:53:06pm

re: #15 Palandine

This is shocking.

The church doesn't strike me as the type. Still, they have some 'splainin to do.

as soon as I heard Hungarian church, I was not surprised

51 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:53:39pm

re: #43 HoosierHoops

my wife gave me more difficulties even though she was a child of holoucust surivers. it was having to get out and bail me out of jail.
she had to find the bail money.

52 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:53:48pm

re: #37 Sharmuta

To give an example from my dim dead moonbat past.

I was in NORAID.* We met in a church basement. I'm sure the priest had no clue what NORAID was, he was just an elderly guy and thought we were a bunch of Irish enthusiasts.

*FWIW, I know NORAID in some cities gave money for the IRA. I never saw it in our group. We were deluded dupes who wrote letters to the editor, mostly, but now I know we were enablers.

Still, a lot of churches may not be really keyed in to the Interwebz. Having read their website and seen nothing more untoward than yoga classes, I'm inclined to give the church the benefit of the doubt.

Still, churches: VET the folks who use your facilities!

53 Siscoe  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:54:12pm

This is why the 'human rights commissions in Canada are wrong. We need free speech so that worthless scumsuckers like this bastard can be thrown out into the open and ridiculed for the garbage they spew.

54 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:54:19pm

re: #2 coquimbojoe

There's something seriously wrong with the NY diocese: Jewish groups protest Catholic church's decision to host Croat musician

55 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:54:22pm

re: #48 buzzsawmonkey

Great book about the latter.

56 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:54:24pm

re: #22 Thanos

You can hate on me if you like, but... I can't agree with the extreme methods of infoshop to block this. Everyone's got the right to speak, even these miscreant assholes who are evil. Taking picture's, outing them, all cool. Blocking entry? Tearing down signs?
Next time it might be you.

On one hand, I agree. Maybe not so much from the "right" to speak (yes they do), but it's good to know the enemy. And yes, the more he speaks, the more will know him and not make the same mistake the Church made.

On the other hand, we now have the internet so nothing is unknown, or should be.

And on the third hand, I also agree that ignoring is probably the best thing, but let me tell you. If I was walking down the street and saw a sign in a storefront saying "Come in and listen to David Irving", I could not ignore.

57 So?  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:54:44pm

re: #22 Thanos

You can hate on me if you like, but... I can't agree with the extreme methods of infoshop to block this. Everyone's got the right to speak, even these miscreant assholes who are evil. Taking picture's, outing them, all cool. Blocking entry? Tearing down signs?
Next time it might be you.

NEVER AGAIN MEANS NEVER AGAIN.

I wish I had been there to BLOCK those a-holes!

58 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:55:14pm

re: #47 lawhawk

if your not american free speech is BUBKAS. SCUM BAGS DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO COME TO AMERICA AN SPREAD THERE HATE. i for one can't stand the a.c.l.u. bull shit about free speech when the goal of the so called free speecher is to murder me and mine.

59 EC Marm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:55:49pm

re: #37 Sharmuta

But this is the information age- a simple internet search would have outed this man as a Holocaust denier. And selling yourself out in a desperate attempt for money to a nazi apologist is, I'm sure, not the image any Catholic Church would truly want to convey.


I assume you've never had any dealings with some of the people that work in a church rectory. The function of booking a church hall is not something that would have been handled by a priest. You or I would have recognized the name immediately and thought to check and ask questions but remember the poll results from the Pew Poll the other night? They would have thought Irving
was a city in California, at best.
It's a shame it got that far, but it's not tough for me to see how it could happen.

60 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:55:59pm
61 Charles  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:56:03pm

re: #47 lawhawk

Holocaust denial is not a reason to deny Irving entry into the US. Free speech still counts for something here in the States, even if the Europeans sense of free speech isn't so free.

I'm more interested in knowing how and why the church let him speak there in the first place. No one ran a google search to find out who this guy was? Heck, even a basic search would have revealed his anti Semitism and revisionist history.

Agreed -- I want know who's facilitating this little Holocaust-denying visit.

He's not doing it by himself.

62 jorline  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:56:40pm
63 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:56:57pm

re: #50 So?

Yup, It's the Eastern European influence. (see #54)

64 sojerofgod  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:57:19pm

If I " was walking down the street and saw a sign in a storefront saying "Come in and listen to David Irving" My first reaction would be, "Who?" My second would probably be "not a chance."

65 So?  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:57:57pm

Why doesn't he visit a sewer next time, I hear a lot of his buddies hang out there.

66 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:58:11pm

re: #58 yochanan

As I am an American and do take my free speech rights quite seriously, what you're proposing isn't good for any American - because political speech is precisely the kind of speech that was intended to be protected.

I don't think it a good idea for a government to enact laws banning revisionist history or anti-Semitic crap because they simply don't work. Pushing these guys underground doesn't expose their crap to the antiseptic light of day and to those who can counter it with speech of their own.

67 phillygirl  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:58:57pm

It seems amazing to me that people connected to the church weren't familiar with David Irving's awful views. Then again, these Upper East Side people read the New York Times, so they get a very slanted view of the news. Nevertheless, they think they know EVERYTHING. Their understanding of the evils of the world is very limited, even after 9/11.

68 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:59:27pm

re: #22 Thanos

You can hate on me if you like, but... I can't agree with the extreme methods of infoshop to block this. Everyone's got the right to speak, even these miscreant assholes who are evil. Taking picture's, outing them, all cool. Blocking entry? Tearing down signs?
Next time it might be you.

IN full agreement with you. Better to fight them with information and evidence. Sad to say, the kind of people who go to this are impervious to intelligent conversation.

69 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 5:59:28pm
70 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:00:16pm

a couple of dozen nazis might appear to be harmless but what about when they are a mass movement? the idea of 'pure free speech ' if the goal is mass murder is A TOTAL BUNCH OF BULL SHIT. the aclu idea is black and white there are plenty of grays. easy to say free speech when your kid, wife, or parents aren't being murdered.

after the ACLU faught to let the nazi scum march in skokie a town with lots of holocoust survivors i found out what HATE MEANS


I HATE THE ACLU.

71 itellu3times  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:00:27pm

OT: I see Chris Mathews listed for Leno tonight, hold onto your wigs and keys, and get ready for The Tingle.

72 freedombilly  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:00:36pm

My alma mater, Nortwestern, embarassingly has a denier on it's faculty. Arthur Butz is a world class turd. He, of course, kept his views silent until he just after he received tenure.

Many imbeciles sight his views and his position as associate professor at a fine academic institution to defend themselves and their pathetic world view. They neglect to point out that he is a professor of electrical engineering, not history.

And man didn't land on the moon, either.....

73 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:00:56pm

Lizards should direct their ire at David irving.

The church secretery (who probably volunteers) and the good priest (who apparently spends his time helping dying AIDS patients) are the WRONG TARGET.

74 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:01:35pm

re: #52 Palandine

I am not trying to condemn this church, but I am disappointed. It's as easy as phoning the local library- they will run a search for you. I do hope this church has learned a valuable lesson.

75 Alouette  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:01:51pm

re: #39 yochanan

I AM NOT A NU YAWKER i could careless aobut the place the point was that it is a jewish hood. and nazi;s are not welcome.

chicago used to have jewish hoods not any more.

What's Rogers Park?

76 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:02:02pm

re: #73 experiencedtraveller

The church secretery (who probably volunteers) and the good priest (who apparently spends his time helping dying AIDS patients) are the WRONG TARGET.


I'm not buying it.

77 Sylvester_T_Cat  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:02:16pm

Who's responsible for Irving's being here?
Let's see-- Irving's a UK/EU citizen. Means he had to go through our US border controls, whatever they are at this point in time. I'm thinking there's no visa required for most European visitors coming here as tourists or whatever-- but our people at the turnstiles still check passport numbers and theoretically do a reasonable screening.
In five minutes search on the web, anybody can find out that Irving has hard prison time on his recent resume:
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]
How that lets him skate right through our current border screening procedures, I'd truly like to know.

78 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:02:20pm

re: #66 lawhawk

DIGESTED GRASS EATEN BY MALE BOVINES!

79 quickjustice  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:02:24pm

re: #49 sojerofgod

It's easy to be swayed by extremely aggressive tactics used against someone you despise. The heinous Irving is worthy of extreme, in-his-face contempt. (I lost family in Holocaust).

I was trying to make the same point as you nonetheless. The anarchists are thugs, so it's thug against thug in the streets. Their tactics were borderline, but no one was hurt here. Yelling and screaming, yes. Roughing up and threatening crosses the line for me. We're in America, not Nazi Hungary.

80 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:02:43pm

re: #51 yochanan

my wife gave me more difficulties even though she was a child of holoucust surivers. it was having to get out and bail me out of jail.
she had to find the bail money.


ohhh boy...glad you got out ok..
I married into a very large Jewish family..we have 5 kids..I was raised a catholic..so both of us are married to a jewish girl..So we know that life is hell..but so much fun living it..
/ I'm teasing right? but anyway, have i got stories... ( mostly in-law )

oh yea sorry..ID thread..
So I walk out to the backyard before dinner and was surrounded by some angry bees.
just one came out of the pack and stung me.right by the belly button..but not hard enough to leave his stinger..then they all just disappear into the clover while i run off like a little girl screaming i've been stung!
So if it comes down to the survival of the species..I'm going with the bee mafia..

81 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:03:24pm

re: #56 marjoriemoon

On one hand, I agree. Maybe not so much from the "right" to speak (yes they do), but it's good to know the enemy. And yes, the more he speaks, the more will know him and not make the same mistake the Church made.

On the other hand, we now have the internet so nothing is unknown, or should be.

And on the third hand, I also agree that ignoring is probably the best thing, but let me tell you. If I was walking down the street and saw a sign in a storefront saying "Come in and listen to David Irving", I could not ignore.

Yep, better to know the enemy, that's why I can't agree with the "own the K word" movement we had in a thread last night. If you use the word, I know you are the enemy.

82 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:03:31pm

re: #66 lawhawk

As I am an American and do take my free speech rights quite seriously, what you're proposing isn't good for any American - because political speech is precisely the kind of speech that was intended to be protected.

I don't think it a good idea for a government to enact laws banning revisionist history or anti-Semitic crap because they simply don't work. Pushing these guys underground doesn't expose their crap to the antiseptic light of day and to those who can counter it with speech of their own.

Right. And also, pushing it down lets it fester and grow (see Europe).

He can talk all he wants, but if my grandfather was there? He'd have beat him to a pulp and gladly gone to jail for it. So I'm not entirely unhappy those crazzzzy anarchists got all fired up.

Screw Irving. He needs a good ass kicking.

83 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:03:34pm

re: #69 buzzsawmonkey

Absolutely correct.

Free speech and the first amendment apply to the government, not to private actors. The church had absolutely no requirement to provide the venomous hatred of Irving a forum.

84 sojerofgod  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:03:35pm

re: #61 Charles

Heh, In many of the churches I been in a secretary answers the phone, she has a desk calendar or day-planner. the secretary will be an upper-middle aged female usually, perhaps retired or even a volunteer. The caller asks for a room for X number of people. Says his use is something innocuous, a club meeting or something, and pays like $40 for the night to cover the cost of cleaning. The church considers this a community outreach. Get'em to come by any means necessary, in some instances. Unless the caller specifically states that his group is a bunch of swastika-kissing jew-hating murderous nazis (unlikely) That's the end of it. A representative comes by and pays the fee, and they have to be out by 9 or so to enable the janitor to take out the trash. That's about the end of it. It is not fair to expect most people to be politically involved and to know who some wack-job like this is. They just aren't.

85 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:03:52pm

re: #46 DeathtotheSwiss

I believe in "fighting words".

I do to, on substantive issue. Holocaust denial is moonbattery of the highest order. To engage them, validates them. We can fight the words, with the truth and without giving them the satisfaction of engagement.

Such beliefs are more narcissistic than based in any real convictions, if they had any basis in reality they wouldn't continue on the subject.

86 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:04:01pm

re: #47 lawhawk

I think that it should be, and that, as you say, no one bothered to look him up. But his face and his shit have been seen all over the world, and the USA should never have given this Brit a visa.

I think it just stinks, and am furious. Funny, he was too broke to pay Deborah Lipstadt when he lost the case he brought against her.

From that article:

[...]Until 1988, David Irving did admit that the Holocaust had occurred, although he tended to minimize its impact. He spent great energy on attempting to whitewash Hitler, arguing that the mass murder of Jews had been carried on behind the German leader's back. But in 1988, Irving joined the camp of full Holocaust denial, pronouncing himself to have been converted by the "science" of the Leuchter Report, which found there had been no poison gas chambers in the Auschwitz death camp. After 1988, when his older books were re-printed, Irving edited out all mention of the Holocaust. He traveled the world, speaking to neo-Nazis and others, claiming, for example, that "more women died on the back seat of Edward Kennedy's car at Chappaquiddick than ever died in a gas chamber in Auschwitz."[...]


/Did he hitch a ride across the Big Pond?

87 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:04:04pm

re: #72 freedombilly


FRANKLY HE AND THE LEFTISTS DOREN AND OTHERS ARE WHY MY FAV. COLLEGE TEAM IS ANYONE PLAYING NORTHWESTERN.

i have had enough run ins with the chatting class from northwestern

$%^&* UM

88 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:04:25pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I'm not buying it.

Nobody is selling you anything.

89 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:04:40pm

re: #74 Sharmuta

Agreed. I hope all churches learn from this: Vet the people who use your facilities.

90 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:04:48pm

re: #71 itellu3times

OT: I see Chris Mathews listed for Leno tonight, hold onto your wigs and keys, and get ready for The Tingle.

So that's what I've been feeling in my toes.....
oh, wait that's my athletes foot acting up.

91 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:05:33pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Killgore,

It hurts. I just do not understand this.

92 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:06:50pm

NAZI SCUM dead nazi's a good thing.

93 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:06:55pm

re: #86 NY Nana

Has Irving left the country, or is he still here? Might be interesting to see if Lipstadt could somehow proceed with a collections case - maybe seize his tickets as compensation, and before the right judge, could possibly do so pretty quickly if he's a flight risk.

94 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:07:27pm

re: #61 Charles

Agreed -- I want know who's facilitating this little Holocaust-denying visit.

He's not doing it by himself.

Same here. Thank you, BTW, for bringing this to people's attention.

95 sojerofgod  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:07:56pm

re: #79 quickjustice

As I know you are aware, in the 1920's it was commie thugs VS nazi thugs in the streets of germany. We all know how that one turned out. Anyone who uses or advocates violence to make a political statement, or to prevent others from doing so, should be met with the most ardent enforcement of the law. That's what the hell is wrong in places like san fran. They let the bastards run rough-shod over places like the Marine Corp recruiting office, and the cops are in on the game. This destroys respect for the law. and is probably one of the most dangerous actions a government can take. Those with a monopoly on force can never be seen to be taking sides.

96 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:07:59pm

re: #89 Palandine

i don't give the church a pass. anti semitism came out of the church. the church has to ask forgiveness for there sin.

97 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:08:12pm

re: #23 DeathtotheSwiss

It does
work. But, I'm not one who believes blood libel should be covered under Free Speech.

I've got no problem with anyone even remotely affected by the Holocaust going after people like this in any manner they choose. I'll step back and watch.
It's these other jokers who just use his denial to give them permission to do their anarchist thing and claim some kind of moral high ground.

98 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:08:20pm

And, Jewish Americans (and all law-abiding Americans): Arm yourselves.

It kills me that this craziness is on the rise in my own country. For what it's worth, this Gentile has your back.

99 So?  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:08:20pm

re: #66 lawhawk

As I am an American and do take my free speech rights quite seriously, what you're proposing isn't good for any American - because political speech is precisely the kind of speech that was intended to be protected.

I don't think it a good idea for a government to enact laws banning revisionist history or anti-Semitic crap because they simply don't work. Pushing these guys underground doesn't expose their crap to the antiseptic light of day and to those who can counter it with speech of their own.

Considering the "reality TV" mindset of 50% of Americans, I doubt any critical thinking will ever come from this group of people to oppose Irving's rantings. The scariest part is that a majority of 15 year olds don't even have a clue who Hitler was. Who is gonna educate them? Today's public schools?

100 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:09:29pm

FWIW, for those of you who have History International Channel, right now (8:10 pm central), they're discussing Skokie and American Nazism.

101 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:09:59pm

re: #91 NY Nana

It's amazing. There's a Catholic bishop in Poland (I think) who has an antisemitic radio show that's very popular. The ADL complains and the Church does nothing. The Eastern European Catholics have a serious problem with antisemitism. I never saw a follow up of the people who beat up the Jews on the NY subway for saying "happy Hanuka" but I suspected that they might fall into that category.

102 freedombilly  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:10:18pm

re: #100 Palandine

Thanks, just flipped.

103 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:10:54pm

in europe now that the neo nazi and islamist are going after the jews most of the euro are watching and doing nothing in a generation the same thing will happen here and then it will be too late.

104 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:11:16pm

re: #81 Thanos

Yep, better to know the enemy, that's why I can't agree with the "own the K word" movement we had in a thread last night. If you use the word, I know you are the enemy.

Sorry I missed that. Naw, I'll pass on the K word.

Heck, for a long time I had a hard time with the "J" word. That being Jew. Many years ago, I was on a beliefnet discussion board discussing the ownership of the word "Jew." We tend to decribe things associated with Judaism as Jewish. "He's Jewish" as opposed to "He's a Jew." Partly because of negative adjectives used with the word. So we've shied away from it. Anyway, I'm very conscious of it now.

105 EC Marm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:11:57pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I'm not buying it.


I donated almost two decades of my life to helping a parochial school transition into the computer age. I had a very tech knowledgeable Principal/nun (with zero money but a desire for change that makes Obama look like a smack) who I absolutely adored and would do anything for. There were times when we tried to integrate certain functions with those of those in the rectory and we hit an infuriating brick wall. Every time. They wanted to stick with their Selectric typewriters and 3 X 5 cards. You just have to be there sometimes to understand.

106 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:12:13pm

re: #96 yochanan

We have a lot to atone for.

For what little it's worth, in my 30-something years, I have never been in an anti-Semitic church, never been in a church that taught anything but that the Jews were our older brothers in faith, and that one could not hate Jews and be Christian.

Still, just as Muslims have to fight the cancer of jihadi-ism in their midst, we must continue to be vigilant against anti-Semitism.

107 slokat  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:12:25pm

re: #20 EC Marm

Group functions that can generate revenue are one way to pay for multi-million dollar mortgages in times of declining church attendance and contributions.

It is my understanding, per IRS rules, that it is illegal for a Church to charge rent to a group, unless they are a registered charity.

108 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:12:42pm

re: #101 Killgore Trout

Linky?

109 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:12:42pm

these Nazi and Islams will use FREE SPEECH as a club to murder Jews which is what they are doing in Europe now. and the ACLU is providing them the club to do it with. this is pure idiocy.

110 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:13:08pm

re: #92 yochanan

NAZI SCUM dead nazi's a good thing.

Killing them only makes us look bad. laughing their sorry asses back to the sewer they slithered out of is much better. Retards with black eyes tend to get sympathy, laughing stocks do not.

111 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:13:40pm

re: #97 jcw46

Thanks. That's precisely the problem I have with this incident. If it had been Jewish groups reacting to Irving, I still would have disapproved of the tactics, but I would have much more sympathy with them.

I'll say it again, folks -- the Black Bloc skumtroopers would probably do the same thing, using the same rhetoric and tactics to us if we met in any large city. To them, there really is no difference between ourselves and a pig like Irving -- we're all The Scary Racist/Capitalist/Fascist Right, and need to be suppressed by mob action. Remember this incident in New York?

112 mich-again  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:13:57pm

re: #22 Thanos

I can understand your point, but keep in mind, this is the type of people you want to make sure have unfettered first amendment rights..

Man guilty of accosting Elie Wiesel

SAN FRANCISCO - A San Francisco jury has found a 24-year-old man guilty of accosting Holocaust survivor and scholar Elie Wiesel in a hotel elevator.

Jurors convicted Eric Hunt today of one felony charge of false imprisonment with a hate crime allegation. Hunt also was convicted of two misdemeanor counts - one for battery and one for elder abuse...

On the witness stand, Wiesel read comments allegedly written on a Web site by Hunt calling Wiesel's accounts of the Holocaust "fictitious."..

Hunt had pleaded not guilty to all the charges by reason of insanity.

113 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:14:13pm

re: #48 buzzsawmonkey

When you say "Jewish hoods" are you speaking of neighborhoods or gangsters?

(Both would apply.)

That would be in Detroit > The Purple Gang

114 Logician  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:15:17pm

This is not purely a free speech issue because Holocaust denial is not merely a false theory about facts. It is incitement to violence. For if Holocaust denial is the truth then virtually all Jews are engaged in a massive and coordinated conspiracy of lies, to enrich themselves and to hold on to secret and illegitimate political power at the expense of everyone else. This in turn would imply that all the peaceful institutions of society for redressing grievances (such as elections and courts) and for discovering the truth (such as historians) are under the control of Jews and are incapable of carrying out their ostensible functions.

This is an unambiguous incitement to violence against Jews (as well as, ultimately, against those institutions). And this logic is not merely a technicality. It is routinely and ubiquitously used as justification by those who do use violence against Jews, including those (such as the rulers of Iran) who wish to perpetrate a second Holocaust.

115 So?  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:15:36pm

re: #110 JeremyR

Killing them only makes us look bad. laughing their sorry asses back to the sewer they slithered out of is much better. Retards with black eyes tend to get sympathy, laughing stocks do not.

The Nazis laughed as they clubbed and bashed the heads of Jews in the street. Now did the Jews get any sympathy?

116 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:17:02pm

re: #110 JeremyR

if your son was shot at by one and your wif'es family was butchered by them you might think differently.

if the group goal is my murder i don't give them free speech to do just that. that is total foolishness.

117 wolfie  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:17:06pm

re: #66 lawhawk

re: #70 yochanan

I firmly agree with lawhawk that we must protect free speech in America, which means that scum like Irving have the right to speak nonsense.

I nevertheless side with yochanon on the specific case of the Skokie march. Governments do have the right to set reasonable limits on where and when speech, protest marches, etc. take place. If the damned neo-nazis want a rally, you may have to let them rally. but you do not have to let them march through a town full of Holocaust survivors. This was, IMO, assault and/or incitement to riot. The ACLU was full of crap.

118 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:17:08pm

re: #113 jcw46

And of course, the Bugsy Siegel and Mickey Cohen days in postwar Los Angeles. Not to mention Meyer Lansky, Lepke Buchalter, and a whole lot of other Jewish hard guys. Fascinating history...

119 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:17:54pm

re: #112 mich-again

I can understand your point, but keep in mind, this is the type of people you want to make sure have unfettered first amendment rights..

Man guilty of accosting Elie Wiesel

Yeah, I know I first posted the links to the trial here. The divisor is the use of force, or advocating the use of force, then they are fair game.

120 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:18:16pm

re: #114 Logician


AMEN BROTHER

121 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:19:51pm

Need a '74 Dodge Monaco to park in front of the church!

122 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:20:06pm

re: #117 wolfie

re: #70 yochanan

I firmly agree with lawhawk that we must protect free speech in America, which means that scum like Irving have the right to speak nonsense.

I nevertheless side with yochanon on the specific case of the Skokie march. Governments do have the right to set reasonable limits on where and when speech, protest marches, etc. take place. If the damned neo-nazis want a rally, you may have to let them rally. but you do not have to let them march through a town full of Holocaust survivors. This was, IMO, assault and/or incitement to riot. The ACLU was full of crap.

Yes it's similar to Westboro baptist, and the courts did rule right against them in a few cases. There are times and places where it is clearly incitement.

123 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:20:13pm

re: #93 lawhawk

Has Irving left the country, or is he still here? Might be interesting to see if Lipstadt could somehow proceed with a collections case - maybe seize his tickets as compensation, and before the right judge, could possibly do so pretty quickly if he's a flight risk.

I checked, and it looks like he is here until August. Excellent point, BTW.

Accused Holocaust denier David Irving is on a U.S. speaking tour.

Irving is slated to speak in more than a dozen U.S. cities in July, according to a page on the Web site IrvingBooks.com. The site promises "many more" appearances throughout August.

The site does not disclose the location of the talks, which are described as "private American functions," and says it reserves the right to refuse admission. Admission costs about $16.

Irving was largely discredited as a historian of the Third Reich after losing a libel suit brought against Emory University Professor Deborah Lipstadt in 2000. He later was jailed for violating Austrian laws regarding Holocaust denial.

Do you think that anyone could do something before he scoots back to the UK, with his ill-gotten gains?

124 ypnxjkb  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:20:34pm

I find it odd that churches in the U.S. do not ask groups what in the hell there book club is discussing. Are they just looking for the booking fees and don't really care?

125 So?  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:20:39pm

re: #114 Logician

This is not purely a free speech issue because Holocaust denial is not merely a false theory about facts. It is incitement to violence. For if Holocaust denial is the truth then virtually all Jews are engaged in a massive and coordinated conspiracy of lies, to enrich themselves and to hold on to secret and illegitimate political power at the expense of everyone else. This in turn would imply that all the peaceful institutions of society for redressing grievances (such as elections and courts) and for discovering the truth (such as historians) are under the control of Jews and are incapable of carrying out their ostensible functions.

This is an unambiguous incitement to violence against Jews (as well as, ultimately, against those institutions). And this logic is not merely a technicality. It is routinely and ubiquitously used as justification by those who do use violence against Jews, including those (such as the rulers of Iran) who wish to perpetrate a second Holocaust.

VERY WELL SAID!

126 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:20:44pm

re: #112 mich-again

I can understand your point, but keep in mind, this is the type of people you want to make sure have unfettered first amendment rights..

I agree with Thanos- the problem with denying bigots their right to free speech is, where does it stop? Whose free speech will be infringed upon next? Allowing bigots to express themselves freely lets us know exactly who they are. Sadly- there are some who can't see or are willfully blind, granted, but it still comes back to if we allow their rights to be usurped, when will it be our turn to have our rights denied?

127 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:21:06pm

re: #121 JCM

Need a '74 Dodge Monaco to park in front of the church!

I used to have one of those, I called her "Princess Grace".

128 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:22:20pm

re: #123 NY Nana

Do you think that anyone could do something before he scoots back to the UK, with his ill-gotten gains?

His tour Itinerary is going to be talked about in the forums we hit to investigate VB, guess I could go sewer wading again.

129 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:22:45pm

re: #110 JeremyR

Will you please stop using the word 'retard'? It is offensive, and you use it as a perjorative. And no, no one in my family is mentally challenged.

/Are you?

130 So?  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:22:48pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

I agree with Thanos- the problem with denying bigots their right to free speech is, where does it stop? Whose free speech will be infringed upon next? Allowing bigots to express themselves freely lets us know exactly who they are. Sadly- there are some who can't see or are willfully blind, granted, but it still comes back to if we allow their rights to be usurped, when will it be our turn to have our rights denied?

There are bigots and then there are Nazi swine bastards who would put on a swastika armband in an instant if they could get away with it.

131 DistantThunder  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:22:53pm

re: #124 ypnxjkb

I find it odd that churches in the U.S. do not ask groups what in the hell there book club is discussing. Are they just looking for the booking fees and don't really care?

They need to keep the number of congregants up for the obvious reason $$$$$. Therefore: dont' rock the boat.

132 winston06  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:23:14pm

re: #47 lawhawk

Holocaust denial is not a reason to deny Irving entry into the US. Free speech still counts for something here in the States, even if the Europeans sense of free speech isn't so free.

I'm more interested in knowing how and why the church let him speak there in the first place. No one ran a google search to find out who this guy was? Heck, even a basic search would have revealed his anti Semitism and revisionist history.

If Yusef Islam and Imams are denied entry, then this idiot should have been denied entry as well. I'd like to know who issued him a visa in the State Dept

133 DistantThunder  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:23:39pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

I agree with Thanos- the problem with denying bigots their right to free speech is, where does it stop? Whose free speech will be infringed upon next? Allowing bigots to express themselves freely lets us know exactly who they are. Sadly- there are some who can't see or are willfully blind, granted, but it still comes back to if we allow their rights to be usurped, when will it be our turn to have our rights denied?

I think bigots should have free speech rights, and other should have a right to mock and ridicule their opinions.

134 EC Marm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:23:44pm

re: #107 slokat

It is my understanding, per IRS rules, that it is illegal for a Church to charge rent to a group, unless they are a registered charity.


Couldn't tell you. I was never involved in the booking of functions. Perhaps it is entered on the books as taxable income, which then allows deductions for expenses and it washes out, or some small amount is paid to the IRS. Perhaps the Irving group lied about that too, or used some 'front group quasi-charity' to get around the problem.
Most of the time the facilities are used for girl scout dinners, boy scout award ceremonies, retirement home bingo nights, that sort of stuff. No one is hanging a sign looking for this sort of nonsense.

135 winston06  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:23:50pm

re: #109 yochanan

agreed

136 wolfie  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:23:58pm

re: #86 NY Nana

The big question.
WHO FUNDED THIS TRIP?

137 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:24:38pm

re: #121 JCM

It is all really the same war in Iran the Nazi scum run the place and what to get a nuke to murder me and mine. in northwestern the scum what to create the apathy that prevents the organization of Americans against the bigots as the Americans are the only ones other than the Israeli that could prevent the second Holocaust. of course in Evanston ill they don't say lets get a nuke to murder Jews they say Iran just wants nuke power to make electricity etc. or they talk about the evil Zionist occupation in some form of leftist rant.

138 winston06  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:24:40pm

re: #136 wolfie

Pat Buchanan?

LMAO

139 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:25:05pm

re: #115 So?

The Nazis laughed as they clubbed and bashed the heads of Jews in the street. Now did the Jews get any sympathy?

Diffrent scenario my friend. Here we have a lot of people who are clueless. They hear the holocaust deniers and mostly dismiss them. Then when they swee holocaust survivors' friends attack, they wonder if maybe the deniers have something to their message because we reacted with violence and intimidation.
In Germany Many of our people got sympathy and shelter. Many Christinas risk all and often lost all to assist Jews in escaping.
Many though were intimidated by the Nutsies and their tactics. Hitler worked long and hard to build an enviroment in which average people would hate and despise Jews.
Right now, the deniers message rings hollow with anyone who has known a survivor or a vet, but the vets and survivors are passing fast, and the ones who knew them are growing older. The youth are being denied an education, and we are in danger of repeating the past.
Violent action on our part will only strengthen the position of the neonazis. If we become known as a violent group, it won't be long until people attach the term hate to us.

140 goddessoftheclassroom  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:25:50pm

I want to give the church every benefit of the doubt, but churches are NOT the government. They have the right of assembly and association, and they may be selective to whom they grant access.

141 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:26:23pm

re: #133 DistantThunder

I think bigots should have free speech rights, and other should have a right to mock and ridicule their opinions.

And- I'm pretty sure that we do have that right. Just another reason why the islamists are so desperate to curb free speech.

142 Ziggy  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:26:46pm
But I’d still like to know who’s behind this US tour for a Holocaust denier. Irving’s not doing this by himself.

Pat Bucchanon?

143 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:27:11pm

re: #132 winston06

The imams and Cat Stevens were barred from entry because of their ties to terrorism. No such links here.

144 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:27:37pm

re: #132 winston06
we are not required to give the bigots a mike to spread there hate esp if they aren't americans. THAT IS TOTAL B.S. IF YOUR NOT A AMERICAN CITIZEN YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO AMERICAN FREE SPEECH.

145 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:27:58pm

re: #137 yochanan

It is all really the same war in Iran the Nazi scum run the place and what to get a nuke to murder me and mine. in northwestern the scum what to create the apathy that prevents the organization of Americans against the bigots as the Americans are the only ones other than the Israeli that could prevent the second Holocaust. of course in Evanston ill they don't say lets get a nuke to murder Jews they say Iran just wants nuke power to make electricity etc. or they talk about the evil Zionist occupation in some form of leftist rant.

Certainly different fronts of the same ideological war, which will very easily spill into physical war if not confronted on all fronts.

146 Syrah  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:28:25pm

So how did that excrement get a Visa to enter the country? It's not like he was an unknown quantity before he gave this speech.

147 slokat  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:28:52pm

re: #134 EC Marm

I'm treasurer of my church, we are not allowed to receive any taxable income.

If we do, we forfeit our non-profit status - instantly & completely.

148 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:28:56pm

It's interesting that the UK would block Martha Stewart entry to their country for a conviction, but the US won't do the same.

149 Ziggy  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:28:59pm

BTW, as big a scum bags as this guy and his followers are, I don't agree with blocking entrances, ripping clip boards away or any 1st amendment infringements. Protest vocally, call names or whatever, but don't combat fascists by being one.

150 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:29:12pm

re: #108 experiencedtraveller

Tadeusz Rydzyk

151 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:29:34pm

re: #139 JeremyR

THOSE WHO SAVED JEWS WERE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN ONE IN A THOUSAND MAYBE 10K OR MORE. A FEW THOUSAND GOOD PEOPLE OUT OF MILLIONS WHO DID NOTHING OUT OF FEAR OR AGREEMENT WITH THE NAZIS

152 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:30:27pm

re: #117 wolfie

re: #70 yochanan

I firmly agree with lawhawk that we must protect free speech in America, which means that scum like Irving have the right to speak nonsense.

I nevertheless side with yochanon on the specific case of the Skokie march. Governments do have the right to set reasonable limits on where and when speech, protest marches, etc. take place. If the damned neo-nazis want a rally, you may have to let them rally. but you do not have to let them march through a town full of Holocaust survivors. This was, IMO, assault and/or incitement to riot. The ACLU was full of crap.

Well, I disagree. For all my "kick his ass" talk (and I DO believe that), the best way to deal with these guys is not ignore, but to counterprotest. I would hope that all groups who disdain this kind of hate speech and its incitement are keeping a close eye on Irving.

Check out this little tidbit from the JDL, who did a fantastic job in Skokie... and more than once.

The Jewish Defense League promised that the KKK march in Skokie would be stopped peacefully if possible, and by any means if necessary! The promise was fulfilled (the KKK was unable to march and tried to hold a rally instead). JDL does take responsibilty for the miltant effort against the Nazis, but the violence against the police was perpetrated by communist and socialist groups in attendence. In a display of cowardice, these groups attacked police cars (breaking windshields and headlights) and threw manure with their bare hands at Skokie police. The Jewish Defense League went there to battle Nazis, not the cops. Groups like Anti Racist Action and the Spartacus League (admitted communist organizations) had a different agenda that day. Not only did they want to take on the Klan and Nazis, they desperately wanted to turn the effort into an anti-cop rally. While we vehemently disagree with the tactics of the police, we don't support what took place against the officers that day. Communist and socialist rhetoric and chants, which compared cops to the Klan, made JDL members feel very uncomfortable. They also verbally chastised the JDL by yelling "JDL is KKK," and they openly supported "Palestinian" aspirations.


I hate Illinois nazis.

153 Alouette  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:30:35pm

re: #104 marjoriemoon

Sorry I missed that. Naw, I'll pass on the K word.

Heck, for a long time I had a hard time with the "J" word. That being Jew. Many years ago, I was on a beliefnet discussion board discussing the ownership of the word "Jew." We tend to decribe things associated with Judaism as Jewish. "He's Jewish" as opposed to "He's a Jew." Partly because of negative adjectives used with the word. So we've shied away from it. Anyway, I'm very conscious of it now.

In the 1800's, the word "Jew" was considered uncouth and vulgar, and refined persons of the Mosaic persuasion referred to themselves as "Israelites."

154 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:30:49pm

re: #140 goddessoftheclassroom

I want to give the church every benefit of the doubt, but churches are NOT the government. They have the right of assembly and association, and they may be selective to whom they grant access.

We can also make it very uncomfortable for any church hosting the creep. Catholics should be demanding an explanation. The community the church serves, should be. This kind of thing demands vocal and visible action to bring to light. Certainly the church is within it's 1st amend rights, but so are the voices raised in protest.

155 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:30:54pm
156 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:31:17pm
157 wolfie  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:31:18pm

re: #114 Logician

Your argument can be used to suppress ANY speech.

158 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:31:39pm

re: #128 Thanos

His tour Itinerary is going to be talked about in the forums we hit to investigate VB, guess I could go sewer wading again.

G-d bless you. I am sure he will, sadly, find receptive audiences.

Boy George was denied a visa, but Irving *spit* was not. I am sorry, but I do not see moral equivalence, even though Boy George is a POS, but very recognizable, and I think he must travel with his staff.

159 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:31:42pm

re: #116 yochanan

if your son was shot at by one and your wif'es family was butchered by them you might think differently.

if the group goal is my murder i don't give them free speech to do just that. that is total foolishness.

I lost members of my family in Poland and Germany. Cousins to my grandparents. My grandfather came to America at the turn of the century, 1899 to be exact. My oldest sister married the son of holocaust survivors, they fled Germany after Kristalnacht.

I hate scum like Irving and agree he deserves to be hung or worse. I caution that WE need to make sure OUR case is crystal clear so people will see that we are right.

Don't deny your enemy his right to speak. Hand him a microphone and encourage him to make an utter fool of himself. Same thing we need to be doing with Barry.

160 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:32:00pm

I found his tour schedule, but, I now need to go delouse. This site is awful!
[Link: www.focal.org...]

161 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:32:20pm

re: #152 marjoriemoon

I KNOW I WAS THERE. COMMIE SCUM NO DIFFERENT THAN NAZI SCUM. at least in america

162 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:32:33pm

re: #136 wolfie

The big question.
WHO FUNDED THIS TRIP?

Excellent question. That I would love to know.

163 Ziggy  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:32:53pm

I just read Irvings bio and didn't realize he wasn't an American citizen. Therefore screw his free speech here in America, he has no constitutional rights. Please disregard post #149

164 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:32:59pm
165 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:34:08pm

re: #159 JeremyR

irving isn't american he doesn't have american rights.

166 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:35:06pm

re: #106 Palandine

We have a lot to atone for.

We? There a mouse in your pocket?

No one has any obligation to atone for what was done in the past by others.

The only sins one can atone for are one's own. Not any others' from any other time or place.

I understand why others might feel differently but can you really hold anyone to blame for what was done before they were born?

That's how centuries long blood feuds begin. That's the reasoning that gave/gives permission (to some) to treat Jews the way they were/are.

ENOUGH!

167 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:35:07pm

re: #159 JeremyR
This slime should never have been admitted into the USA. This is shameful.

168 Ziggy  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:35:24pm

re: #162 NY Nana

Excellent question. That I would love to know.

Perhaps the old brown shirt Pat Bucchanon

169 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:35:31pm

re: #129 NY Nana

Will you please stop using the word 'retard'? It is offensive, and you use it as a perjorative. And no, no one in my family is mentally challenged.

/Are you?

In the contest in which I used it, I believe it is appropriate. remember in school when kids would pick on a kid who was quite literally retarded? No one ever viewed it as a fair fight, and the kids who did it most often got a late night visit from people who disapproved.

Offer me a better choice and I will gladly use it.

170 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:36:05pm

irving, pat pukeanan are just smart nazi's stupid nazi's are david duke no real difference just one group has more brains than the other.

171 Fredlike  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:36:06pm

The church could obviously refuse to host the event, but they probably had no clue what was going on until the protesters showed up.

I can certainly see why groups would want to protest this sort of event but the thuggish tactics are not needed. Using fascist tactics to fight fascist will not in the end help their cause.

172 marwan's daughter  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:36:15pm

The group Anonymous once went after Hal Turner, a racist radio show host, and now of course they've got the cult of Scientology in its sights. Maybe this scum sucker should be next...

173 EC Marm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:36:25pm

re: #147 slokat

I'm treasurer of my church, we are not allowed to receive any taxable income.

If we do, we forfeit our non-profit status - instantly & completely.


I was always involved in the school side, very few dealings with the rectory. If what you are saying is true (which I don't doubt) then I suspect there is more to the story. Some other group most likely acted as the 'front' for Irving. I can't imagine taking a chance that potentially financially dangerous, all for the opportunity of picking up a hundred bucks or so. More digging is needed.

174 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:36:38pm

re: #169 JeremyR
Moron, Idiot, Jackass, etc...there are thousands of choices.

175 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:36:40pm

re: #160 CapeCoddah

Bless you! And they are so proud of themselves...a lot of countries would deny him entry. I am very much in favor of the precious freedom of speech we are priviledged to have, but as an alien, why can't the David Irvings of the world be told that they are not welcome?

I am sure that all the Jew haters will grovel at his feet.

176 slokat  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:38:01pm

One thing that might have been a factor in the booking of the venue - most churches allow an individual member or a group sponsored by the church to use the facilities with out much, if any of a vetting process.

177 Age Of Freedom  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:38:06pm

Pat Buchanan?

178 Racer X  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:38:39pm

re: #169 JeremyR

Idiot.

179 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:39:16pm

re: #166 jcw46

I see your point. I also have seen the pain of a lot of Jewish people on ths forum, and for them it's a lot more present than "the past". I know the past two Popes have made efforts to apologize for the Church's anti-Semitic past. I, personally, can only be vigilant for it among people I know. Atonement may not be le mot juste, but it's close. Vigilance? Awareness? They all play a part.

180 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:40:01pm

re: #151 yochanan

THOSE WHO SAVED JEWS WERE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN ONE IN A THOUSAND MAYBE 10K OR MORE. A FEW THOUSAND GOOD PEOPLE OUT OF MILLIONS WHO DID NOTHING OUT OF FEAR OR AGREEMENT WITH THE NAZIS

Well that's not really true. I was just reading an article in the World Jewish Digest about that subject. It's quite amazing how many were saved and escaped.

But I can differentiate between attacking for no reason and defending for being attacked. Anyway, it's a sin NOT to defend yourself or your family.

Counterprotests are a defense, and a peaceful one. It should always start there, but one has to be ready in such situations, should things get less than peaceful.

181 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:40:12pm

and now the smart nazi's have become ANTI ZIONISTS. NOTHING REALLY CHANGES. and in some cases it is the liberal church that is supporting this. nothing really changes all that much. murder the jew and if the jew is able to defend him self then he becomes the evil oppresser. sorry if i don't buy the free speech rap

182 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:40:34pm

re: #171 Fredlike

As #152 so explicitly demonstrated, fascist tactics are what creeps like the counterdemonstrators are all about. They don't give a rat's ass about the Holocaust, Jews, or humanitarian issues -- they want to use jerkoffs like the Chicago Nazis or David Irving as excuses to riot, and to attack anyone who they disagree with.

If only we could drop these various gangs of thugs and cretins on to Greenland, or the like, and let them all fight it out there...

183 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:40:59pm

re: #177 Age Of Freedom

Pat Buchanan?


Somebody drug pat's name into an ID thread..

/ pretty much disproves the entire ID augment..doesn't it?

184 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:41:03pm

re: #151 yochanan

THOSE WHO SAVED JEWS WERE FEW AND FAR BETWEEN ONE IN A THOUSAND MAYBE 10K OR MORE. A FEW THOUSAND GOOD PEOPLE OUT OF MILLIONS WHO DID NOTHING OUT OF FEAR OR AGREEMENT WITH THE NAZIS

Fear or agreement. Lets not put ourselves in a position where the people arround us would agree with Irving.
Look, I don't like the guy one little bit. He shold not have been allowed into this country, he should not be allowed freedom to walk our streets. We need ot make him a mockery, a laughing stock. We need to avoid anything that makes us look bad. When they talk, we talk. we give facts, we counterpoint. Let them throw the first punch, THEN kick their butts back accross the pond.

185 Inquisitive  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:41:30pm

re: #22 Thanos

You can hate on me if you like, but... I can't agree with the extreme methods of infoshop to block this. Everyone's got the right to speak, even these miscreant assholes who are evil. Taking picture's, outing them, all cool. Blocking entry? Tearing down signs?
Next time it might be you.

Yes, it was not the right thing to have done, and yes we need to protect our freedom of speech......but......I must say it does do my heart some good to see them shut down this time in this way.....I will whisper a hooray--good job--way to go.

186 LHC996Rider  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:42:14pm

I am 100% for free speech, even idiotic speech. Let them talk till they are blue in the face. Ignore them. Mock them. Counter protest them. But "no touchy".

If anyone tried to physically prevent me from attending ANY event (no matter how idiotic they deemed it) they would have a VERY large problem on their hands.

/6'4", 255, former Marine with a short Irish temper.

187 Syrah  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:42:16pm

re: #176 slokat

One thing that might have been a factor in the booking of the venue - most churches allow an individual member or a group sponsored by the church to use the facilities with out much, if any of a vetting process.

I know who David Irving is.

But I wonder how many people on the street know. Like that Political IQ quiz we all played with a few threads down, or Hannity's "man on the street interviews", I wonder if the church officials had any clue at all who that excrement was when they allowed him to have a booking.

188 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:42:31pm

re: #163 Ziggy

I just read Irvings bio and didn't realize he wasn't an American citizen. Therefore screw his free speech here in America, he has no constitutional rights. Please disregard post #149

"zig" -

If Irving is here - LEGALLY - he ascends to the position of "US PERSON" - which in short means he can spew any "POOP" he cares to.

My questions are:

1. Who Let Him In?

2. Where are the "SHTARKERS" - Like My Cousins, Back in 1939. The "Ultimate HECKLERS!"

3. Send in the SHTARKERS - NOT - The Clowns!

-S-

189 CapeCoddah  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:42:42pm

re: #175 NY Nana

Well Nana, whoever is guarding our gates is not doing a very good job. This is beyond shameful. How this scum was let in here, I have no idea. I am as big and loud an advocate for free speech as anyone can be. This is not free speech, it is a back door approach, cloaked in free speech to condone the murder of Jews. Don't come here and use our freedoms to advocate that hatred. He does not want to show up anywhere I happen to be. You will need to bail this Italian American out of jail.

190 wolfie  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:43:13pm

re: #152 marjoriemoon

It looks to me that the JDL did NOT do a fantastic job in Skokie.
On the contrary, the lefties behaved so horribly that it embarrassed the JDL publicly and privately.

In any case, the right to free speech does NOT include the right to speak anywhere at any time. If a white supremacist group wanted to march in a black neighborhood, the city could....and probably would... forbid it in the interests of public peace and safety. The group would have to pick an alternate venue.

191 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:43:25pm

re: #184 JeremyR
he isn't american he has no right to spread his nazism here. the rest is just a cover to do it.

192 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:44:19pm

re: #86 NY Nana

I think that it should be, and that, as you say, no one bothered to look him up. But his face and his shit have been seen all over the world, and the USA should never have given this Brit a visa.

I think it just stinks, and am furious. Funny, he was too broke to pay Deborah Lipstadt when he lost the case he brought against her.

From that article:


/Did he hitch a ride across the Big Pond?

I'm getting stretched all over the place here. I feel like I'm on both sides of this issue simaltaneously. Perhaps, I don't know where I stand when two of the issues I am most passionate about: fighting nazis and free speech come into conflict.

193 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:44:25pm

re: #153 Alouette

In the 1800's, the word "Jew" was considered uncouth and vulgar, and refined persons of the Mosaic persuasion referred to themselves as "Israelites."

It's about time we take it back.

Get up in the morning slaving for bread, sir....

194 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:45:39pm

re: #168 Ziggy

Perhaps the old brown shirt Pat Bucchanon

They deserve each other.

195 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:45:46pm

re: #164 buzzsawmonkey

The Israelites.

On no! you beat me to it! LOL

196 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:46:17pm

re: #179 Palandine

I see your point. I also have seen the pain of a lot of Jewish people on ths forum, and for them it's a lot more present than "the past". I know the past two Popes have made efforts to apologize for the Church's anti-Semitic past. I, personally, can only be vigilant for it among people I know. Atonement may not be le mot juste, but it's close. Vigilance? Awareness? They all play a part.

I do see the importance of REMEMBRANCE.
Not to rub it into anyone's face but to make clear what can happen.

We are obligated to make sure that NEVER AGAIN becomes part of the human psyche.
It is necessary for our own self-respect and salvation.

We must be ever VIGILANT against those who would deny or excuse what happened.
To do otherwise would allow the possibility for the infection to take root.

197 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:46:21pm

re: #165 yochanan

irving isn't american he doesn't have american rights.

Fully agree. He should never have been allowed into the USA. Still, driving them underground will not accomplish what we need to accomplish which is keeping the truth of the holocaust alive in the minds of our children and grandchildren. The modern day nazis and islamists need to be kept to a fringe element. The best way to keep them small is to refute with facts so people know the truth. We cannot lose this battle for the minds.

198 wolfie  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:47:16pm

re: #166 jcw46

You are absolutely right. Apologies and atonement for the sins of others are cheap tricks.

What we CAN do is remember the past, learn as much as we can from previous generations' mistakes, and do eveything in our power to make sure it will happen NEVER AGAIN.

199 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:47:27pm

re: #188 Dr. Shalit

Send in the SHTARKERS - NOT - The Clowns!

-S-

Shtarkers, si!
Moonbats, no!

:-)

200 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:47:45pm

re: #169 JeremyR

Welcome to my scroll by list.

Get a clue.

201 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:48:05pm

re: #178 Racer X

Idiot.

Are you suggesting it or calling me one? Idiot moron and imbecile are all clasifications of retards.

202 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:48:17pm

re: #150 Killgore Trout

Tadeusz Rydzyk

Thanks for the links. I hope you are well.

The official Vatican web page states that Rydzyk's radio station "became much more involved in spreading risky politics than in spreading the Gospel."[3]

And

His tenure in Germany was opposed by the Church,

In any complex machine, screws loosen. I hope Tadeusz Rydzyk learns. Lets see how he responds to his one on one meeting with Pope Benedict.

But back to the main point. If the issue here is that St. Stephen of Hungary Parish deliberately financed and/or invited a notorious history author who peddles holocaust denial then I ask for proof that one of these guys rejects Nostra Aetate.

203 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:48:25pm

before ww2 jews really weren't free in america and i am afried we are going back to a period like that. the attacks on the israel lobby are the beginning of it. it will only get worse esp if oil is used as a weapon and if muslim population grows in america like it has in europe. In a generation jews will not be safe to walk on the street like they are not safe to walk the street in france or england. the neo nazi types can and do work with the islamists david duke went to syria and pat PUKANAN'S anti israel crap is well known.

204 jaunte  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:48:36pm

re: #201 JeremyR

You are a slow learner.

205 Age Of Freedom  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:48:42pm

re: #183 HoosierHoops

Yep.
I just threw that name in the air in accordance to Charles' attempts to figure out who helped bringing in Irving.

206 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:48:45pm

re: #190 wolfie

It looks to me that the JDL did NOT do a fantastic job in Skokie.
On the contrary, the lefties behaved so horribly that it embarrassed the JDL publicly and privately.

In any case, the right to free speech does NOT include the right to speak anywhere at any time. If a white supremacist group wanted to march in a black neighborhood, the city could....and probably would... forbid it in the interests of public peace and safety. The group would have to pick an alternate venue.

"wolfie" -

You are correct - NOT - anywhere at any time - more or less in the vein of "Fire in a Crowded Theatre." The Skokie Nutters were assisted by JEWISH ACLU ATTORNEYS in Illinois. A SHONDA on them, the Nazis and the Courts that allowed it to Happen. That was my position in 1978 AS IT IS NOW! That is all - FOR NOW.

-S-

207 Syrah  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:48:59pm

re: #192 DeathtotheSwiss

I'm getting stretched all over the place here. I feel like I'm on both sides of this issue simaltaneously. Perhaps, I don't know where I stand when two of the issues I am most passionate about: fighting nazis and free speech come into conflict.

We can be for his right to free speech. We don't have to be for allowing him a Visa to enter the country.

208 Charles  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:49:11pm

By letting creeps like Irving speak, you discover their associates and their networks of support.

By all means, don't try to stop him. Let him talk.

209 EC Marm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:49:46pm

re: #201 JeremyR

Are you suggesting it or calling me one? Idiot moron and imbecile are all clasifications of retards.


Do you have a recent link for that? Those classifications have been relegated to the dust bin of history for a very good reason.

210 Fredlike  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:49:48pm

re: #173 EC Marm

I was always involved in the school side, very few dealings with the rectory. If what you are saying is true (which I don't doubt) then I suspect there is more to the story. Some other group most likely acted as the 'front' for Irving. I can't imagine taking a chance that potentially financially dangerous, all for the opportunity of picking up a hundred bucks or so. More digging is needed.

If the church collected a fee it was probably for something like janitorial services and the like. I was the treasurer for a non-profit and we could certainly partake of commerce and make a "profit" on the transactions, of course non of this was taxable income because we were a non-profit. The rules manly were that we could not pay out funds to individuals unless they performed a specific service for us or it was for something like a scholarship. Profits from Bingo were much more highly regulated and could only be used for the benefit of the whole organization not for a specific person. So we could not pay salaries from that money but of course money being money we could offset costs in some areas and free up funds in others.

211 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:50:04pm

re: #203 yochanan

Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson make all men equal.

212 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:50:16pm

re: #203 yochanan

before ww2 jews really weren't free in america and i am afried we are going back to a period like that. the attacks on the israel lobby are the beginning of it. it will only get worse esp if oil is used as a weapon and if muslim population grows in america like it has in europe. In a generation jews will not be safe to walk on the street like they are not safe to walk the street in france or england. the neo nazi types can and do work with the islamists david duke went to syria and pat PUKANAN'S anti israel crap is well known.

Well, you've got the anti-idiotarian's behind you. And as a member of the military I will NOT tolerate any such idiocy from anyone.

213 ypnxjkb  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:50:20pm

"I am a Baby Aryan
Not Jewish or Sectarian
I have no plans to marry an
Ape or Rastafarian"
This was a poem he penned to his young daughter in 1994.
[Link: www.adl.org...]
As with most Pro neo-Nazis, our boy has grown into a full fledged racist. I bet his mamma would be proud.
Oh yeah, by-the-by, it says he has a home in Key West.

214 Alibaba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:50:23pm

Who invited him? Obviously members of St. Stephen's Church! Does this priest know his parishoners? Does he know how many Hungarian Jews died during the Holocaust? He should be removed as pastor.re: #6 Sharmuta

This is really disappointing. Why did they not think to ask what the nature of the meeting was? It's just naive to think everyone has good intentions when requesting a a space to host them. Don't know what the group is about? For Pete's sake- ask or dig yourself.

215 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:50:31pm

re: #208 Charles

Or as somebody once put it, "Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots"

216 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:51:07pm

Sunlight can be better than bleach as a dis-infectant.

217 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:52:05pm

re: #192 DeathtotheSwiss

I'm getting stretched all over the place here. I feel like I'm on both sides of this issue simaltaneously. Perhaps, I don't know where I stand when two of the issues I am most passionate about: fighting nazis and free speech come into conflict.

Yes, they do conflict, but not for me...after what my family here lost to the ovens? And seeing on LGF, since IIRC, last October, thanks to Charles, how many neo-nazis are flourishing like it was the 1930's redux? I honestly fear for my kids and grandkids.

Never forgive. Never forget.

218 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:52:14pm

re: #197 JeremyR

it is harder for them to organize undergrond than out in the open.

219 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:52:22pm

re: #192 DeathtotheSwiss

I'm getting stretched all over the place here. I feel like I'm on both sides of this issue simaltaneously. Perhaps, I don't know where I stand when two of the issues I am most passionate about: fighting nazis and free speech come into conflict.

Well- consider europe. They have laws prohibiting some free speech now, and this has driven the neo-nazis and crypto-fascists underground where we don't know what they're up to as well as giving rise to coded speech where the masses are now being bamboozled into giving these people (like vlaams belang) political power because their code hasn't been throughly cracked.

220 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:52:26pm

re: #191 yochanan

he isn't american he has no right to spread his nazism here. the rest is just a cover to do it.

I fully agree with that statement. Something to consider though is that we have too many holocaust denying nazi types here who do have the right to free speach. some of those jerks invited him.
What we need to work on is preventing the spread of that message. violence on our part will garner sympathy for them from people who have no clue. If we beat them to a pulp, they will go among the clueless and say "Look what those evil jews, spreading their lies of a holocaust did to me when I tried to expose the truth." That is why now is not the time for violence.

221 Logician  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:52:29pm

re: #157 wolfie

Your argument can be used to suppress ANY speech

The argument 'any speech might be an occasion for violence by bad people and should be suppressed' can be used to suppress any speech and is invalid.

The argument 'when a statement is intended to incite violence, and does in fact incite it, then it is itself morally equivalent to violence' cannot be used to suppress anything except the mechanisms of violence. Without it, the gangster boss who makes it clear every Monday (without directly ordering it) whom he would like to see dead on Tuesday, intending and knowing that his minions will carry out his wishes, would have to be regarded as an innocent bystander.

I repeat: the connection I described between Holocaust denial and violence against Jews is not a technicality. Violence is the intended, and actual, effect.

Admittedly, there is not a one-to-one correspondence between those incitements and murders, as there is in the gangster case. That is one reason why I did not say that this particular speech ought to be suppressed. I offered no opinion on that question. I only said that this is not purely a free speech issue.

222 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:54:02pm

re: #110 JeremyR

Killing them only makes us look bad. laughing their sorry asses back to the sewer they slithered out of is much better. Retards with black eyes tend to get sympathy, laughing stocks do not.

What the hell is your problem?

223 lawhawk  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:54:10pm

re: #218 yochanan

it is harder for them to organize undergrond than out in the open.

It's harder to fight them when they're underground and hide their associations than when they're in the open. They let down their guard as do their associates, and it's easier to track them, and their money this way.

224 Racer X  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:54:17pm

re: #201 JeremyR

Are you suggesting it or calling me one? Idiot moron and imbecile are all clasifications of retards.

How about asshole?

As an alternative to the term "retard". Several lizards take offense to the use of that term.

225 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:54:33pm

re: #203 yochanan

"yo" -

#1. I am NOT a Felon.

#2. Go from there.

-S-

226 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:54:45pm

re: #206 Dr. Shalit

the jdl was a small group.

they could not have prevented it. but the jewish hoypaloy hid and did nothing. at least the jdl and others tried.

the jewish federation and the like acted like scared mice.

227 opinionated  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:55:16pm

re: #203 yochanan

While to some it may seem off topic, it is not.

If Jews in America are to be demonized, it will occur after Israel is demonized.

Just watch the backlash if Israel is forced to attacked Iran and gas prices shoot up.

But even before that happens, the US State Dept is going all out against Israel.

See following items. One about an anti Israeli report to be issues and the other how the State Dept acts as the 'Palestinian" complaint department vis a vis Israel.

U.S. official preparing scathing report on Israel's West Bank policies

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Officials irked by increasing U.S. complaints about Palestinian issues

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

228 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:55:23pm

re: #211 Palandine

Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson make all men equal.

That was Mr. Colt (patent August 29, 1839)..... Mr. Smith & Mr. Wesson partnered in 1852.

*Absolutely useless trivia expect to win a bar a bet.*

229 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:55:41pm

re: #203 yochanan

before ww2 jews really weren't free in america and i am afried we are going back to a period like that. the attacks on the israel lobby are the beginning of it. it will only get worse esp if oil is used as a weapon and if muslim population grows in america like it has in europe. In a generation jews will not be safe to walk on the street like they are not safe to walk the street in france or england. the neo nazi types can and do work with the islamists david duke went to syria and pat PUKANAN'S anti israel crap is well known.

Agreed, and I feel that if the dems continue on the course they are steering, that we will soon be in serious danger here, on a par with England and France.

230 Catttt  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:56:11pm

re: #169 JeremyR

In the contest in which I used it, I believe it is appropriate. remember in school when kids would pick on a kid who was quite literally retarded? No one ever viewed it as a fair fight, and the kids who did it most often got a late night visit from people who disapproved.

Offer me a better choice and I will gladly use it.

Why can't you admit you dissed a group of people by using an epithet? Developmentally disabled would work, if you must use it. However, I know several strong and street-wise dev. disabled young men (ex-roomie was a special ed. teacher in Baltimore City - they helped me move) who will not be getting beat up any time soon, and I don't think they'd think much of your analogy.

231 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:56:14pm

Has anyone looked into possible connections between Soros and Irving? I know, I know. I have a bug up my butt about Soros but, he is behind a lot of evil nowadays.

232 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:56:45pm

re: #221 Logician


Hah! By that reading, the ROP crowd would be in for some legal trouble.
I say attempted murder and conspiracy to commit murder charges be brought against one of the Mullah's and let's have this out in the open.

233 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:57:31pm

re: #225 Dr. Shalit

my case was tossed so i have no record eather. but i wasn't a felon in anycase. it would have been a misdamener.

234 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:57:41pm

re: #215 mikalm

Or as somebody once put it, "Freedom of speech makes it easier to spot the idiots"

I'm pulled two ways. Irving should never have been given entrance to this country. It's a privilege he doen't deserve.

For Holocaust deniers in this country, I'm all for letting them talk and then demolising them wih facts.

I understand why Europe criminalized Holocaust denial, but I do't think it's worked for them. It's driven that madness underground, and it's something that idiot alienated kids can get into.

I think the reason it's not bigger in the US is that it hasn't been criminalized, and people are free to spew their hate, and to be called on the carpet for it.

This is why "trooferism" must never be criminalized; it must stay the same derided philosophy it is by ssne people today.

I revile both of those beliefs--they are assaults on reality. Millions are alive today who saw the Holocaust. Tens of millions of us saw the planes crash on live tv during the 9/11 atrocities. Yet people still spew that they didn't happen. It's Orwellian, and the only response is the truth.

235 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:58:05pm

re: #213 ypnxjkb

Thank you for that article. I have saved it.

236 Syrah  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:58:08pm

re: #231 MandyManners

Has anyone looked into possible connections between Soros and Irving? I know, I know. I have a bug up my butt about Soros but, he is behind a lot of evil nowadays.

Soros

237 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:58:48pm

re: #217 NY Nana

Yes, they do conflict, but not for me...after what my family here lost to the ovens? And seeing on LGF, since IIRC, last October, thanks to Charles, how many neo-nazis are flourishing like it was the 1930's redux? I honestly fear for my kids and grandkids.

Never forgive. Never forget.

America will not let it happen. I have to have faith in that.

The thought of this country turning into some leftist police state literally sends a shiver down my spine. I can't imagine...or perhaps I don't want to...that they could make enough headway. People are bound to wake up sometime to what is going on around us.

Here's to hoping it never comes to us against them...

238 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:58:57pm

re: #218 yochanan

it is harder for them to organize undergrond than out in the open.

The KKK did a very good job of organizing underground. Most resistance movement do so as well. The underground is the source for revolts and revolutions. These vermin need to be exposed at every possible turn. Keep the truth out there where people can see it. Keep the memory of the past in peoples minds so they know to ignore the nazis. Underground movements scare me. They rarely surface until they are strong enough to make a bloody fight of it.

239 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:58:58pm

re: #190 wolfie

It looks to me that the JDL did NOT do a fantastic job in Skokie.
On the contrary, the lefties behaved so horribly that it embarrassed the JDL publicly and privately.

In any case, the right to free speech does NOT include the right to speak anywhere at any time. If a white supremacist group wanted to march in a black neighborhood, the city could....and probably would... forbid it in the interests of public peace and safety. The group would have to pick an alternate venue.

Well, read the article I posted. Rubin said this:

The Skokie community felt the problem should have been ignored. We couldn't disagree more; we believe negative attention is better than no attention at all. When the world sees Jews fighting back, supported by sympathetic Gentiles likewise risking arrest, the Nazis will get the impression that they aren't welcome in the town of Skokie. Indeed, Mike McQueeny, leader of the Klan and organizer of the December 16 rally, grudgingly acknowledged that he wasn't given a warm welcome -- he was pelted with snowballs and his message was not heard. This is statement alone is partial victory for the forces of good over evil.

Attacking the cops is wrong. Attacking the nazis isn't.

240 ggt  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:59:12pm

Good Evening Lizards! It was hot and hot in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland this day.

Watching Key Largo. H@ll of a movie.

How are you-all this evening and what are we talking about?

241 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:59:25pm

re: #228 JCM

I rely on two great 20th Century guarantors of equal force: Mr. Browning and Mr. Williams.

242 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:59:29pm

re: #231 MandyManners

if you think of the gas speculators soros was a money speculator but on a huge level. but the donks are willing to take his speculator money.

243 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:59:32pm

re: #231 MandyManners

Has anyone looked into possible connections between Soros and Irving? I know, I know. I have a bug up my butt about Soros but, he is behind a lot of evil nowadays.

Good question. It would be a long money trail if it exists.

244 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 6:59:52pm

re: #226 yochanan

the jdl was a small group.

they could not have prevented it. but the jewish hoypaloy hid and did nothing. at least the jdl and others tried.

the jewish federation and the like acted like scared mice.

"Yo" -

Essentially you are correct - That Was Then - This Is NOW - and my family was not entirely law abiding as it related to Eretz Yisroel. Thank Goodness for Statutes of Limitation.

-S-

245 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:00:14pm

First on the list when I searched.

NEW YORK, Nov. 7 (JTA) -- It's not often that George Soros, the billionaire financier and philanthropist, makes an appearance before a Jewish audience.
It's even rarer for him to use such an occasion to talk about Israel, Jews and his own role in effecting political change.

So when Soros stepped to the podium Wednesday to address those issues at a conference of the Jewish Funders Network, audience members were listening carefully.

Many were surprised by what they heard.

When asked about anti-Semitism in Europe, Soros, who is Jewish, said European anti-Semitism is the result of the policies of Israel and the United States.
"There is a resurgence of anti-Semitism in Europe. The policies of the Bush administration and the Sharon administration contribute to that," Soros said. "It's not specifically anti-Semitism, but it does manifest itself in anti-Semitism as well. I'm critical of those policies."

It's a David Irving site!

246 Alibaba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:00:51pm

re: #6 Sharmuta
"We had no idea . . . " yeah, right!

247 vermicelli  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:01:03pm

re: #4 yochanan

i was there also as a young kid. i think i was surprised, as i recall, by some of my "neighbors" reactions.

248 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:01:07pm

re: #236 Syrah

Soros

Soros.

249 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:01:43pm

re: #245 MandyManners

Whoa!

250 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:01:53pm

re: #234 Palandine

Paladine -

Bet the name of Sen. Alan Cranston (D) CA rings a bell for you.

-S-

251 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:02:02pm

re: #237 DeathtotheSwiss

sorry but america if it gets bad enough don't bet on it. if the ave joe has no gas to drive his car or heat his apt in jan. he might blame the arabs or if the libs and pukeanan attack israel they might blame the jews.

252 LoFlyer  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:02:29pm

Evening guys! OT and fascinating. There is a huge thunderstorm to the south-east of Atlanta and it is really kicking butt. The light show I am seeing from my front porch is incredible. 40 lightning flashes a minute. Here comes the rain!

253 Syrah  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:03:20pm

re: #248 MandyManners

Soros.

Yep. That one is better.

254 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:03:29pm

This, from al_Guardian, in a book review, of all places:

They are a colourful group bound in a dubious cause: a London pensioner, a Saudi prince with an estate in Ascot, a former Nazi U-boat commander and a glamorous blonde model.
All are part of the international support network for David Irving, the writer branded a racist, an anti-Semite and a falsifier of history by a High Court judge.

Their backing allows him to continue to propagate his views on the Holocaust and support his lavish lifestyle despite his court defeat.

Irving, who operates out of a Mayfair flat and spends much of the year in Florida, has always kept his finances a closely guarded secret.

Now an Observer investigation has begun to unravel the web of contributors and companies that keep Irving's crusade on the march. Until now they have been anonymous.

[...]

Please read it all...are LawHawk, Buzz, and any of our lawyer lizards around to see if this can be used against Irving?

Such irony in his Jewish-sounding name...

255 Alibaba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:03:46pm

Didn't the young George Soros collaborate with the Nazis during WWII?re: #245 MandyManners

256 mikalm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:03:57pm

Gotta run, Lizards. Catch y'all later...

257 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:04:10pm

re: #250 Dr. Shalit

Paladine -

Bet the name of Sen. Alan Cranston (D) CA rings a bell for you.

-S-

Actually, no. I'm familiar with who he was, but I'm having a blonde moment on the significance... :)

258 ggt  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:04:36pm

re: #252 LoFlyer

Kool. I love storms.

259 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:05:14pm

re: #245 MandyManners

I had to quit looking. There's some nasty stuff out there.

260 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:05:28pm

re: #224 Racer X

How about asshole?

As an alternative to the term "retard". Several lizards take offense to the use of that term.

I like your choice. It is the best one posed so far. I agreee I was wrong to use that particular word, and will endevor to not do so again.

re: #200 NY Nana

Welcome to my scroll by list.

Get a clue.


To NYNana, I'm sorry.

261 EC Marm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:06:01pm

re: #245 MandyManners

ASSOCIATES said Soros' appearance Wednesday was the first they could ever recall in which the billionaire, a Hungarian-born U.S. Jew who escaped the Holocaust by fleeing to London as a child, had spoken in front of a Jewish group or attended a Jewish function.


This function in this thread was inside of a Hungarian church?
Tin-foil hat time...

262 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:06:39pm

re: #255 Alibaba

Didn't the young George Soros collaborate with the Nazis during WWII?

There is a 60 Minutes transcript somewhere in which he discusses it but, yes. He admitted to helping confiscate Hungarian Jews' property and said he didn't feel bad about it at all. Lemme' look in my bookmarks. It'll take a moment.

263 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:06:41pm

when iran blocks the straits of hormuze and spends millions saying it is the jews fault don't bet it will not have the desired effects on the anti semites. I can only hope that the iranians momzars do it so badly that the ave ameircan see it for what it is.

264 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:07:02pm

re: #251 yochanan

"Yo" -

I FEEL YOU on this one. The advantage the Jews have in that climate is "the nice Mr. & Mrs. Goldberg" that live next door. The DISADVATAGE the MUSLIMS HAVE is that 'Mr. and Mrs. Abdullah' that live next door are generally NOT SO NICE - OR Integrated.

-S-

265 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:07:10pm

re: #261 EC Marm

This function in this thread was inside of a Hungarian church?
Tin-foil hat time...

Strange coincidence or not?

266 ggt  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:07:34pm

re: #254 NY Nana

BIZARRE!

267 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:07:59pm

re: #202 experiencedtraveller

If the issue here is that St. Stephen of Hungary Parish deliberately financed and/or invited a notorious history author who peddles holocaust denial then I ask for proof that one of these guys rejects Nostra Aetate.


I have no proof, just conjecture. There is a problem and they might be part of it.

268 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:08:00pm

soros was a kapo

269 LoFlyer  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:08:26pm

re: #258 ggt

Kool. I love storms.

Its really incredibal, Continuous lightning to the south-east. The SE horizon is continually lit with lightning, They are really getting hammered. How about a few prayers from the LGF community? Thanx guys!

270 wolfie  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:09:27pm

re: #221 Logician

I see your point.

271 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:09:31pm

re: #264 Dr. Shalit
don't bet on it remember to the leftist being the OTHER is COOL. And jews tend to live in urban centers not were cons. americans tend to live.

273 ggt  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:10:25pm

re: #269 LoFlyer

Prayers on the way.

274 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:10:38pm

re: #251 yochanan

sorry but america if it gets bad enough don't bet on it. if the ave joe has no gas to drive his car or heat his apt in jan. he might blame the arabs or if the libs and pukeanan attack israel they might blame the jews.


If Israel attacks Iran and can't provide sufficient proof of the threat AND oil prices go up then maybe some folks might blame the Jews. If the prices just go up on their own I think the cong. and enviros will get the most blame (as is the case now). I can understand your wariness. I believe the folks who would be ready to blame the Jews won't need much of an excuse to do so and those who wouldn't won't blame them.

Me, I'd send money/volunteer if Israel bombs Iran.

275 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:10:38pm

re: #241 mikalm

I rely on two great 20th Century guarantors of equal force: Mr. Browning and Mr. Williams.

I do subscribe to the Smith & Wesson school of equality. As well as to an update to Mr. Williams work.

276 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:10:42pm

re: #237 DeathtotheSwiss

America will not let it happen. I have to have faith in that.

The thought of this country turning into some leftist police state literally sends a shiver down my spine. I can't imagine...or perhaps I don't want to...that they could make enough headway. People are bound to wake up sometime to what is going on around us.

Here's to hoping it never comes to us against them...

I have faith that President McCain would prevent it, and very quickly...but a 'President Obama'? That frightens me.

Beong a kid during WWII, blessed to be here..and learning that there was a practically 'No Jews Allowed' policy under FDR? Devastating, as he was the father of our country during the war..

This video is an excellent source of info...

277 stevieray  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:11:14pm

re: #261 EC Marm

No tin foil needed. I bet some Hungarians see Soros as a national hero, a poor boy done good.

278 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:11:53pm

re: #257 Palandine

Actually, no. I'm familiar with who he was, but I'm having a blonde moment on the significance... :)

Palandine -

At my age of almost 57 - I am Grey-Blond. A good color, Isuzu actually named a color THAT for the 2002 Model Year. As to Cranston - apart from being US Sen. from CA, during WWII he published "Mein Kampf," in English, in the USA, without Paying Royalties. Understand that after the War, the Hitler Estate won the case - though I doubt they ever collected a penny.

-S-

279 DeathtotheSwiss  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:11:55pm

re: #251 yochanan

sorry but america if it gets bad enough don't bet on it. if the ave joe has no gas to drive his car or heat his apt in jan. he might blame the arabs or if the libs and pukeanan attack israel they might blame the jews.

Where the FUCK is the Churchill of our times? Where are the leaders we need to lay the truth at the people's feet in unequivocable terms?

[Link: www.fbi.gov...]
"Religious bias
Of the 1,750 victims of an anti-religion hate crime:

65.4 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias.
11.9 percent were victims of an anti-Islamic bias.
4.9 percent were victims of an anti-Catholic bias.
3.7 percent were victims of an anti-Protestant bias.
0.5 percent were victims of an anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.
8.4 percent were victims of a bias against other religions (anti-other religion).
5.3 percent were victims of a bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group). "

280 LoFlyer  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:11:58pm

re: #273 ggt

Prayers on the way.

Thanx!

282 EC Marm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:12:38pm

re: #265 MandyManners
Not sure. I'd bet my last dollar that Irving didn't just happen to stroll into that church rectory by his lonesome self and book a 'Holocaust denial evening' and plunk down a hundred buck deposit.
I hope some reporter keeps checking into who said and did what. I can't see how Soros would personally gain in this, so I'd say that might be a little far-fetched and risky. But some other neo-nazi group? I'd like to know who they are.

283 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:14:04pm

re: #276 NY Nana

I have faith that President McCain would prevent it, and very quickly...but a 'President Obama'? That frightens me.

Beong a kid during WWII, blessed to be here..and learning that there was a practically 'No Jews Allowed' policy under FDR? Devastating, as he was the father of our country during the war..

This video is an excellent source of info...

Obama is decidedly not friendly to Israel or Jews.

284 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:14:16pm

Who is publishing this man's books?

285 Alouette  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:14:44pm

re: #279 DeathtotheSwiss

Where the FUCK is the Churchill of our times? Where are the leaders we need to lay the truth at the people's feet in unequivocable terms?

[Link: www.fbi.gov...]
"Religious bias
Of the 1,750 victims of an anti-religion hate crime:

65.4 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias.
11.9 percent were victims of an anti-Islamic bias.
4.9 percent were victims of an anti-Catholic bias.
3.7 percent were victims of an anti-Protestant bias.
0.5 percent were victims of an anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.
8.4 percent were victims of a bias against other religions (anti-other religion).
5.3 percent were victims of a bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group). "

But ISLAMOPHOBIA is rampant!
/Koslim

286 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:15:47pm

re: #278 Dr. Shalit

Interesting. That's a book *spit* I've always been curious to read, but didn't want to pay anyone for it, and don't trust the net for that kind of a download.

Then again, maybe I don't. I once read an online excerpt of the Turner Diaries and felt physically ill.

287 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:15:51pm

re: #251 yochanan

sorry but america if it gets bad enough don't bet on it. if the ave joe has no gas to drive his car or heat his apt in jan. he might blame the arabs or if the libs and pukeanan attack israel they might blame the jews.

I can appreciate your fears which are historically justifiable, but America measured in whole is a pretty fair place. Hard to do at times, but you have to trust the people in the end. There is a decency majority in America and I don't see that changing. The idea that The People will suddenly become some sort of irrational mob when stressed just doesn't measure up with our country's traditions. The whole ROP thing was put out there in fear of some imagined reactionary mob violence that was never there. I believe Jews are safer in America than anywhere.

288 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:16:14pm

re: #279 DeathtotheSwiss

Where the FUCK is the Churchill of our times? Where are the leaders we need to lay the truth at the people's feet in unequivocable terms?

[Link: www.fbi.gov...]
"Religious bias
Of the 1,750 victims of an anti-religion hate crime:

65.4 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias.
11.9 percent were victims of an anti-Islamic bias.
4.9 percent were victims of an anti-Catholic bias.
3.7 percent were victims of an anti-Protestant bias.
0.5 percent were victims of an anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias.
8.4 percent were victims of a bias against other religions (anti-other religion).
5.3 percent were victims of a bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group). "

I'm suprised the percentage of anti islamic bias is so high. They probably include many mediocre item to get them to number two and fuel hate groups like care.

289 wolfie  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:18:02pm

re: #239 marjoriemoon

Attacking the cops is wrong. Attacking the nazis isn't.

In that particular case, attacks on the nazis were an appropriate response, IMO.

This is why the city should not have allowed the march into Skokie in the first place. It was an aggressive incitement to mayhem, just like yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

290 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:18:29pm

re: #281 JeremyR

That is sick! The ICE has been stripping many former nazis of their citizenship and sending them back accross the pond. Time for Soros to pick up his ticket for a row boat.

He was not a Nazi. He was a Jewish kid with no conscience.

His father was a blooming idiot.

291 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:18:45pm

re: #279 DeathtotheSwiss

and those were the reported ones, i never reported the smucks who tossed beer bottles at me as i went to shul with the words as they tossed the bottles one of which just missed my head by 6 inchs
'fucking kikes' and there were others most of these happened when i was a frum jew. as a less frum looking jew i don't tend to have these types of events and mostly the jewish federation types don't either.

292 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:20:33pm

re: #282 EC Marm

Not sure. I'd bet my last dollar that Irving didn't just happen to stroll into that church rectory by his lonesome self and book a 'Holocaust denial evening' and plunk down a hundred buck deposit.
I hope some reporter keeps checking into who said and did what. I can't see how Soros would personally gain in this, so I'd say that might be a little far-fetched and risky. But some other neo-nazi group? I'd like to know who they are.

I don't think everything Soros does is solely for financial gain but, I'm not convinced--based on just what I've read tonight--that he is involved. HOWEVER, I quit reading the stuff I found when I ran a search on George Soros and David Irving. If anyone wants to take up the matter, more power to him.

293 sparrowlake  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:22:07pm

re: #237 DeathtotheSwiss

The thought of this country turning into some leftist police state literally sends a shiver down my spine.

Fixed it - any reason you qualified your comment to a "leftist" police state?

294 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:22:19pm

re: #271 yochanan

don't bet on it remember to the leftist being the OTHER is COOL. And jews tend to live in urban centers not were cons. americans tend to live.

"Yo" -

Check your history - in the Mid/Late 1800's, the Jewish Population of the US was mainly Sephardic or "German." Back then it was said that "The Jews make the Best Republicans." The later wave, My Folks Included, were from a different "weltanschaung." Politically, they/me too, became Democrats as a way to progress - socially and economically. The Left, however in the last 30 - 40 years has made a mistake. They expect the Jew/Israel to want to commit suicide. Survival is a basic instinct. They WILL HAVE a problem - if not yet - VERY SOON! Imagine 70% of US Jews as Republicans. What would the "Left" do at that point? - DON'T ASK!

-S-

295 EC Marm  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:22:27pm

re: #292 MandyManners

HOWEVER, I quit reading the stuff I found when I ran a search on George Soros and David Irving. If anyone wants to take up the matter, more power to him.


I started reading about Soros one night and had to stop. That is one vile excuse for a human being. Front row center at an Obama event, though.

296 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:22:49pm

re: #284 Sharmuta

Who is publishing this man's books?

Vanity press?

[Link: www.fpp.co.uk...]

[Link: www.fpp.co.uk...]

Also, I've seen AFP--which is associated with Ron Paul--in some of the stuff I've read tonight.

297 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:23:01pm

re: #271 yochanan

don't bet on it remember to the leftist being the OTHER is COOL. And jews tend to live in urban centers not were cons. americans tend to live.

Now, now. You may have watched too many tv shows and think that us out here in flyover country only hear about JOOOOSS in bible class but try to keep an open mind. Many of us have been to the big city/or the military for extended periods of time and have brought back our diminished prejudices and have inoculated many others. Also don't forget that evangelical christians have been some of Israel's most ardent supporters (not for the best of reasons {the end times}). So these days it would be a little easier to be a Jew in the boonies than maybe 50 yrs ago. We also take offense to folks taking swords to our soldier's heads and find the degradation of women by the ROP to be barbarian. (I know Christianity may not sit well with you but most of us identify with the Old Testament stories of the Israelites and are repulsed by the Holocaust).

298 LoFlyer  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:24:19pm

It looks like we are going to get hammered by a storm. Very cool from from front porch. Praise the lord for surge suppresors and UPS's! Pulled in my flag an hour ago.

299 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:24:51pm

re: #296 MandyManners

So far I've uncovered Focal Point Publications.

300 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:24:58pm

re: #277 stevieray

Yes, I know one of them personally.

301 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:25:02pm

another time my wife and i were going to shul and a different group of punks started the 'jew this crap' well my wife started swearing a blue streak that would have shocked a dock worker. there jaws droped and we got our toukas out of there and then there was the time that a neo nazi shot up my part of chicago starting in front of my house. that got reported for sure since 6 jews were wounded one almost died and a chinese and black man were later murdered by the nazi.

nazi hate goes from speech to shooting rather easily.

302 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:25:16pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

I have no proof, just conjecture. There is a problem and they might be part of it.

Then we should work the problem. Here is a list of David Irving's Tour dates. We will see where he is hosted. Conjecture about conspiracies is not our friend.

I don't know why this sticks with me:

During the Second World War, his (Irving's) father was an officer aboard the light cruiser HMS Edinburgh. On 2 May 1942, while escorting Convoy QP-11 in the Barents Sea, the ship was sunk by the German U-boat U-456. Irving's father survived, but severed all links with his wife and their children after the incident.[6]

That is a very odd event.

303 pat  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:25:34pm

Then there is Mr Mossberg and Mr Remington. And little Beretta is always raising her hand. And then there is Weatheby, staid and slow, but always reliable after a a couple minutes head start and a cup of coffee.

304 marjoriemoon  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:25:37pm

re: #289 wolfie

In that particular case, attacks on the nazis were an appropriate response, IMO.

This is why the city should not have allowed the march into Skokie in the first place. It was an aggressive incitement to mayhem, just like yelling "FIRE" in a crowded theater.

Well yes. Of course, you're correct, however...

You aren't going to stop these people from gathering. Whether in the town square, the backwoods, or a Jewish neighborhood.

We (that's Jews and gentiles alike!) have to be prepared for this kind of hatred and incitement and let them know, wherever they pop up, they are not welcome.

I don't agree on the whole Jewish conspiracy thing, certainly not in this country. I know plenty of non-Jews who would fight for the rights of anyone confronted with this kind of hatred, Jewish, Black, or whomever. Besides, the KKK is nothing like what it used to be so we're doing something right. That doesn't mean you shouldn't remain constantly vigilant.

305 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:25:57pm

re: #268 yochanan

soros was a kapo

Yes.
BTW how do the kapos fit in with Christians being the only perpetrators of the Holocaust.

306 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:26:45pm

re: #297 jcw46

jcw46 -

Thanks - AND - as so few remember, the first American Attorney General of the Jewish Faith was JUDAH P. BENJAMIN, CSA.

-S-

307 pat  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:26:59pm

re: #294 Dr. Shalit

"Yo" -

Check your history - in the Mid/Late 1800's, the Jewish Population of the US was mainly Sephardic or "German." Back then it was said that "The Jews make the Best Republicans." The later wave, My Folks Included, were from a different "weltanschaung." Politically, they/me too, became Democrats as a way to progress - socially and economically. The Left, however in the last 30 - 40 years has made a mistake. They expect the Jew/Israel to want to commit suicide. Survival is a basic instinct. They WILL HAVE a problem - if not yet - VERY SOON! Imagine 70% of US Jews as Republicans. What would the "Left" do at that point? - DON'T ASK!

-S-

This this is my famiily's background, the first immigration.

308 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:27:00pm

re: #230 Catttt

Catttt,

I go spare when I see the word used, in any context, as it is just not right..it is using an ignorant word...that is not even in a dictionary.

I worked with developmentally challenged kids as a student nurse in the late 1950's, and have seen a world where they were institutionalized, usually, on the advice of the MD, to a world where they attend school, live on their own, if they are high level, take jobs, etc. They are loving, gentle people, who have no malice, yet are still targeted with ignorant, pejorative, and hurtful words.

Anyone who uses such words is not, I don't think, able to walk a mile (or a foot) in the other man's place.

There is a Yiddish word, rachmones (compassion) that best expresses it for me. Sadly, it is lacking in far too many, but unusual in Lizards...that is why it stands out so egregiously in the few who choose so hatefully to use it when it comes to the mentally challenged, who have to fight so for acceptance.

310 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:27:42pm

re: #279 DeathtotheSwiss

Any stats on the perpetrators?
(I am probably not gonna like the answer).

311 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:27:44pm

re: #303 pat

Then there is Mr Mossberg and Mr Remington. And little Beretta is always raising her hand. And then there is Weatheby, staid and slow, but always reliable after a a couple minutes head start and a cup of coffee.

Not to mention the European cousins. Little Sig Sauer, and the refined Mr. Heckler and Mr Koch.

312 wolfie  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:27:59pm

re: #278 Dr. Shalit

Palandine -

At my age of almost 57 - I am Grey-Blond. A good color, Isuzu actually named a color THAT for the 2002 Model Year. As to Cranston - apart from being US Sen. from CA, during WWII he published "Mein Kampf," in English, in the USA, without Paying Royalties. Understand that after the War, the Hitler Estate won the case - though I doubt they ever collected a penny.

-S-

I never knew that about Cranston!
I just vaguely remember him as the average California lefty
from back in the days before the left opened its arms to
....ahem....."anti-Zionism."

313 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:28:30pm

re: #288 JeremyR

Concerning the Jews

by Mark Twain
/same as it ever was.

315 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:29:03pm

re: #299 Sharmuta

So far I've uncovered Focal Point Publications.

He seems to be the only author it publishes.

316 Dustyvet  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:29:10pm

But I’d still like to know who’s behind this US tour for a Holocaust denier. Irving’s not doing this by himself.


CAIR?

317 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:29:31pm

re: #301 yochanan

another time my wife and i were going to shul and a different group of punks started the 'jew this crap' well my wife started swearing a blue streak that would have shocked a dock worker. there jaws droped and we got our toukas out of there and then there was the time that a neo nazi shot up my part of chicago starting in front of my house. that got reported for sure since 6 jews were wounded one almost died and a chinese and black man were later murdered by the nazi.

nazi hate goes from speech to shooting rather easily.

Holy shit Yochanan! No wonder everyone hates Illinois Nazis. No joke, if that bad you should move - I've lived in many places in America and not seen such. Cripes!

318 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:29:52pm

re: #305 jcw46

Yes.
BTW how do the kapos fit in with Christians being the only perpetrators of the Holocaust.

"jcw46" -

Like Rotten Cat Food - You hope the Cat eats you last - If At All.

-S-

319 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:30:29pm

re: #305 jcw46

Yes.
BTW how do the kapos fit in with Christians being the only perpetrators of the Holocaust.

Yafeh nafesh, loosely translated as a self-hating Jew.

320 A Kiwi Infidel  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:31:10pm

I see Radovan Karadzic has been captured.

I guess we will hear the stampede as the LLL use this as an opportunity to use the term "war crimes" and President Bush in the same sentence.

321 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:31:26pm

re: #308 NY Nana

((((((NY Nana))))))

322 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:31:41pm

re: #266 ggt

That is one of the last places I would look for anything like that, and Irving's supporters? No surprise.

323 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:32:02pm

re: #314 JCM

Ego manic with the resources to act on the demands of the ego.

So he went looking for someone to fufill the political office, and finally settled on BHO.

324 pat  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:32:10pm

Any Muslim Serbian war criminals brought to justice? Maybe will have to research.

325 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:32:45pm

re: #316 Dustyvet

But I’d still like to know who’s behind this US tour for a Holocaust denier. Irving’s not doing this by himself.


CAIR?

I'm surprised no one's suggested ShortShit yet. Or, David Duke.

326 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:33:29pm

re: #297 jcw46
i was not talking about christians at all with that post. sorry your skin is a bit thin
jews tend to live in urban areas nyc, l.a. chicago. miami i would be willing to bet that the majority of ameirican jews live in those 4 metro areas.

327 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:33:42pm

re: #319 MandyManners

Yafeh nafesh, loosely translated as a self-hating Jew.

perhaps not enought courage or faith in their god?

328 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:34:50pm

re: #305 jcw46

kapos offen did not have anymore of a choice just when the aligator got to eat them.

329 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:35:14pm

re: #326 yochanan

Oh no offense taken with your post. I was attempting to reassure you that you might receive a better reception out here in farm country than you may think.

330 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:35:23pm

re: #325 MandyManners

I'm surprised no one's suggested ShortShit yet. Or, David Duke.

I wouldn't count out David Duke. He has an advertisement on the Stormfront webpage for the Irving tour...

331 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:35:36pm

OT...

Sad and painful story.

Soldier in famous photo never defeated 'demons'


By ALLEN G. BREED and KEVIN MAURER
PINEHURST, N.C. (AP) - Officers had been to the white ranch house at 560 W. Longleaf many times before over the past year to respond to a "barricade situation." Each had ended uneventfully, with Joseph Dwyer coming out or telling police in a calm voice through the window that he was OK.

But this time was different.

The Iraq War veteran had called a taxi service to take him to the emergency room. But when the driver arrived, Dwyer shouted that he was too weak to get up and open the door.

The officers asked Dwyer for permission to kick it in.

"Go ahead!" he yelled.

They found Dwyer lying on his back, his clothes soiled with urine and feces. Scattered on the floor around him were dozens of spent cans of Dust-Off, a refrigerant-based aerosol normally used to clean electrical equipment.

Dwyer told police Lt. Mike Wilson he'd been "huffing" the aerosol.

"Help me, please!" the former Army medic begged Wilson. "I'm dying. Help me. I can't breathe."

Unable to stand or even sit up, Dwyer was hoisted onto a stretcher. As paramedics prepared to load him into an ambulance, an officer noticed Dwyer's eyes had glassed over and were fixed.

A half hour later, he was dead.

332 darkster2400  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:36:37pm

Unfortunately, I guess that the world was due for this Holocaust-denying piece of filth to crawl out from under a rock to spew more hatred.

But then again, on the bright side, it’s always good to know that the wholesale murder and extermination of 6,000,000+ Jews never really occurred.

Now if I could just find out why all my grandmother's family in Lithuania don't write to me...............Holocaust Memorial - Ninth Fort - Kaunas

333 WindHorse  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:37:11pm

re: #331 JCM

man..... that is sad.

334 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:37:12pm

re: #330 experiencedtraveller

He has an advertisement on the Stormfront webpage for the Irving tour...


I waded through that craphole tonite. Did you notice they really like Pat Buchanan?

335 Age Of Freedom  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:37:19pm

re: #319 MandyManners

Yafeh nafesh, loosely translated as a self-hating Jew.

Yafe Nefesh.

336 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:37:42pm

I'm sewer surfing....... and I stumbled into a sick thread. Of course, what do you expect at Stormfront?

This one is worse. It started in June with "dossiers " on Jewish people in a "know your enemy" vein. Now it's gone from listing the Vanderbilts and Einstein & their history however to long lists of names of Jewish people living in the US.
sick sick sunsabitches.

337 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:38:07pm

re: #313 Killgore Trout

Concerning the Jews

by Mark Twain
/same as it ever was.

At a glance, Its a long read. Will go over it later. My point in 288 was How Do Islamics get into the #2 slot? My position is that it is all the yellng by CAIR, so people count lesser stuff, or incidental stuff as hate crimes with them alone.
Slashed tire? must be a hate crime, and not associated with the fact you antagonize your neighbors and are a fiend in the community.(or did it yourself)

338 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:38:08pm

re: #328 yochanan

kapos offen did not have anymore of a choice just when the aligator got to eat them.


Well yes, that was the point of my asking.
Sadly many christians saw Nazism the same way. Perhaps not in the beginning but after, when they saw what happened to those who fought. Not saying it's something to be proud of or excuse. Just human nature.

339 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:38:12pm

re: #317 The Shadow Do

back when i was ortho i looked different and different gets attention. funny how a baseball cap does not get the same attention as a kipah

340 shiplord kirel  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:38:53pm

re: #311 JCM

Not to mention the European cousins. Little Sig Sauer, and the refined Mr. Heckler and Mr Koch.

Worthy allies, to be sure, and I am solidarity with Comrade Kalashnikov as well.

341 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:38:59pm

re: #336 Thanos

They even had a discussion of the evolution of man from Neanderthals.

342 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:39:21pm

re: #327 jcw46

perhaps not enought courage or faith in their god?

I don't know. I cannot comprehend the mindset.

343 HoosierHoops  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:39:36pm

re: #332 darkster2400

Unfortunately, I guess that the world was due for this Holocaust-denying piece of filth to crawl out from under a rock to spew more hatred.

But then again, on the bright side, it’s always good to know that the wholesale murder and extermination of 6,000,000+ Jews never really occurred.

Now if I could just find out why all my grandmother's family in Lithuania don't write to me...............Holocaust Memorial - Ninth Fort - Kaunas

that is so sad...

344 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:39:46pm

re: #330 experiencedtraveller

I wouldn't count out David Duke. He has an advertisement on the Stormfront webpage for the Irving tour...

Well, there you go!

345 tradewind  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:39:53pm

The good news from that same article is that this bigot once sued a female newspaper reporter for a Jewish daily for calling him a Holocaust denier, and he lost his case and had to file for bankrupty when he couldn't pay his court/legal fees.
/snark/.

346 shiplord kirel  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:41:02pm

re: #340 shiplord kirel

Worthy allies, to be sure, and I am solidarity with Comrade Kalashnikov as well.

I advocate solidarity with Comrade Kalashnikov as well.

PIMF

347 Palandine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:41:04pm

Here's my story, yochanan.

In the 1950s my parents had two kids and lived in a city. The baby was born with clubbed feet, and suffered from colic for a year. He NEVER stopped crying. (At age two, he would be diagnosed as mildly retarded--he's my big brother, but I will be his guardian some day.) It was a terribly hot summer, with no air conditioning. The baby was sick, and my mom was at her wit's end. She called her Jewish pediatrician, on the Sabbath, and asked him to make a house call. He did, and comforted and treated the baby as best he could. Mom went to get the cash to pay him for the house call. He must have observed my family's poverty, and exhaustion with the sick baby, and wouldn't take a dime.

My mother tells that story whenever anyone around her tries to say anything bad about Jewish people. In this country, good people will have the backs of other good people, always.

348 Thanos  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:42:06pm

btw: they are pulling the lists from Jinfo....

[Link: www.jinfo.org...]

349 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:42:30pm

re: #337 JeremyR

It's a worthwhile read when you have the time. Re: your chart...
Look at the enormous drop off between the #1 and #2 slots. The fact that Muslims are still that low after 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, et al is a serious credit to Western tolerance. These crimes will always exist, Western civilization continues to demonize the Jews. It's quite remarkable.

350 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:42:44pm

re: #332 darkster2400

Unfortunately, I guess that the world was due for this Holocaust-denying piece of filth to crawl out from under a rock to spew more hatred.

But then again, on the bright side, it’s always good to know that the wholesale murder and extermination of 6,000,000+ Jews never really occurred.

Now if I could just find out why all my grandmother's family in Lithuania don't write to me...............Holocaust Memorial - Ninth Fort - Kaunas

darkster -

And LATVIA too. which is why the life of my cousin Gilad is doubly precious and I hold my toungue on line at times.

-S-

351 Alibaba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:42:55pm

I believe that the word "Serb" automatically means Eastern Orthodox. The only difference between Bosnians, Croatians and Serbs is their religion although one can speak of Moslem living in Serbia or Orthodox living in Bosnia, etc. The press has whitewashed Moslem (Bosnian) crimes against the Serbs and forgotten that during WWII, many volunteered for the SS - together with the awful Croatian Ustasha - mass murderers. The Serbs have not forgotten and neither should we. re: #324 pat

352 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:43:55pm

re: #339 yochanan

back when i was ortho i looked different and different gets attention. funny how a baseball cap does not get the same attention as a kipah

"Yo'

NYPD or FDNY?

-S-

353 ggt  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:44:09pm

re: #315 MandyManners

I think the article (the one a Lizard posted above) said he owns --or his family member shill--owns the publisher.

354 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:45:04pm

re: #347 Palandine

and if he was religous jew no problem with treating a sick child which is a mitvah but if it was shabos he could not take any money for it.

355 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:45:10pm

re: #335 Age Of Freedom

Yafe Nefesh.


Thank you! I just read it here the other day.

356 darkster2400  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:45:17pm

re: #350 Dr. Shalit

Agreed 100%

357 Mich-again  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:45:20pm

re: #349 Killgore Trout

Those stats remind me of the Sunni on Shia violence that happened in Dearborn after the Shias celebrated Saddam's hanging. Some Shia stores were vandalized and of course CAIR decried the anti-Islamic "hate crimes" without pointing out that the perps were other Muslims.

358 Bloodnok  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:45:28pm

Sore: #334 Mich-again

I waded through that craphole tonite. Did you notice they really like Pat Buchanan?

I don't know how the researcher lizards can do it. I spent some time looking for links between Irving and Duke and the Tera Thai restaurant and just couldn't hack it in those cesspools.

359 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:45:54pm

re: #352 Dr. Shalit

white sox.

360 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:46:10pm

re: #339 yochanan

back when i was ortho i looked different and different gets attention. funny how a baseball cap does not get the same attention as a kipah

In the very smallest way I can appreciate that. When I took my daughter to Sunday school (Jewish) years ago, in a very non-threatening and liberal community (Boulder Co), I found myself looking about for threats as I drove into the Temple parking lot. I would ask myself - "what the hell is wrong with you, you stupid Goy?".

361 tradewind  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:46:43pm

As disgusting as it is to hear any mutant deny the horror that was the Holocaust, it freaks me out to see that there are actual laws against having stupid/hateful opinions in Europe....
Heaven forbid that kind of crap happens here, P.O.**
(post Obama)

362 ted  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:47:09pm

I live on the UES of Manhattan. There are enough of self-hating Jews there to make sure its well attended.

363 Carridine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:47:28pm

re: #314 JCM

Egomaniac with the resources to act on the demands of the ego.


He would, at first glance, appear to be egomaniacal, but I submit it is more an outcome of manipulating LARGE VOLUMES of money, and having a lot of money for yourself, personally, JCM...

I see Soros as being infected with the same "Yassa, Massah!" sickness that so many in Hollywood exhibit. It not so much what or who one is, as the more-or-less natural outcome of hiring dozens of people to daily, professionally and effectively insulate one from the real world.

They are, no matter their FEE, hirelings. So even if Soros (or Leno, or Whoopi or Clooney or Saddam) say something effectively off-the-wall, dysjunct with reality, racist or blind, they are NOT inclined to speak up, but rather mumble a 'Yassah, Massah...' and let it pass, thus reinforcing the Boss's belief that he just passed a gem of utter wisdom, when in truth it was a much baser excretion.

364 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:48:04pm

re: #345 tradewind

The good news from that same article is that this bigot once sued a female newspaper reporter for a Jewish daily for calling him a Holocaust denier, and he lost his case and had to file for bankrupty when he couldn't pay his court/legal fees.
/snark/.

Irving whines about it here.

365 DisturbedEma  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:48:08pm

re: #318 Dr. Shalit

"jcw46" -

Like Rotten Cat Food - You hope the Cat eats you last - If At All.

-S-

Niiiiiice try, but off point. Kapos, Jews in charge of Jewish prisoners, some TOTALLY did become even more monsterous than the guards- the theories range from being made to show no mercy to stay alive (they WERE Jews after all) or that they were psychopaths or self haters.

They were NOT appeasers!

Oh, and PLEASE that is the BEST quote EVER- well, Never have so many is the best, but
Upon hearing about the efforts to appease Hitler Winston stated "Each feeds the crocodile hoping to be consumed last". . .

366 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:48:15pm

at this point in time i don't even know were to send holiday cards to my wif'e's family in romania near poland?

367 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:48:18pm

re: #359 yochanan

white sox.

"Yo-"

OK, have both that i mentioned plus the "YANKELS."

-S-

368 Bloodnok  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:48:28pm

re: #358 Bloodnok

Tara

PIMF

369 Alibaba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:49:02pm

I would like to hear William Donahue of the Catholic League comment on this incident. re: #267 Killgore Trout

370 Sharmuta  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:49:18pm

re: #330 experiencedtraveller

I wouldn't count out David Duke. He has an advertisement on the Stormfront webpage for the Irving tour...

Indeed- in my search on irving tonight, I actually hit duke's site where he (paraphrasing) praised irving for his important work.

371 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:49:26pm

re: #357 Mich-again

Good point.

372 jcw46  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:49:29pm

re: #349 Killgore Trout

It's a worthwhile read when you have the time. Re: your chart...
Look at the enormous drop off between the #1 and #2 slots. The fact that Muslims are still that low after 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, et al is a serious credit to Western tolerance. These crimes will always exist, Western civilization continues to demonize the Jews. It's quite remarkable.

Tolerance or ignorance? what are pop. numbers Jew vs muslim?
although I spent a lot of time in various cities, jews seemed to be more visible than muslim(and not just because of distinctiveness of peyots or kipahs).
Because of confusing muslim with other turban wearing peoples?

373 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:49:58pm

re: #351 Alibaba

I believe that the word "Serb" automatically means Eastern Orthodox. The only difference between Bosnians, Croatians and Serbs is their religion although one can speak of Moslem living in Serbia or Orthodox living in Bosnia, etc. The press has whitewashed Moslem (Bosnian) crimes against the Serbs and forgotten that during WWII, many volunteered for the SS - together with the awful Croatian Ustasha - mass murderers. The Serbs have not forgotten and neither should we.

I'm too tired to post all my links to the Hajj about that but, I have a bunch.

374 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:50:13pm

re: #283 JeremyR

Obama is decidedly not friendly to Israel or Jews.

An understatement, to say the least. What he will do and/or say in Israel? It should be pure bull, and flip flop. He was for a unified Jerusalem before he was against it. I would not go into shock if he claims he was 'misunderstood' and is for it...until his questioning when he visits the terrorists, and bows to Arafart's grave.

And meeting with schmucks like Peres and Olmert? They will kiss his ass.

375 Alibaba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:50:18pm

re: #349 Killgore Trout
Western civ continues to "demonize the Jews" in part thanks to the Islamofascists who have infiltrated and now work with the Lefties and the Far Right holdovers such as Pat Puke-Cannon.

376 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:50:28pm

re: #353 ggt

I think the article (the one a Lizard posted above) said he owns --or his family member shill--owns the publisher.

Vanity press.

377 Killgore Trout  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:50:44pm

re: #369 Alibaba

Fat chance. Al Shapton never criticized O.J.

378 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:51:20pm

re: #325 MandyManners

As soon as I saw 'short shit', scrolling up? I just knew it was you! ;)

379 Bloodnok  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:51:31pm

re: #370 Sharmuta

Indeed- in my search on irving tonight, I actually hit duke's site where he (paraphrasing) praised irving for his important work.

He posts Irving's prison diary (or excerpts, anyway) as well.

380 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:51:41pm

re: #358 Bloodnok

So


I don't know how the researcher lizards can do it. I spent some time looking for links between Irving and Duke and the Tera Thai restaurant and just couldn't hack it in those cesspools.

Sometimes I just give up and bookmark without reading all. Sometimes I don't even bookmark, and walk away.

381 JeremyR  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:51:47pm

re: #349 Killgore Trout

It's a worthwhile read when you have the time. Re: your chart...
Look at the enormous drop off between the #1 and #2 slots. The fact that Muslims are still that low after 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, et al is a serious credit to Western tolerance. These crimes will always exist, Western civilization continues to demonize the Jews. It's quite remarkable.

OH I agree! The chart belongs to deathtotheswiss. I was only commenting that I do not believe anti islamic violence is #2 for exactly the reasons you mention. I believe they trumpet every slight as being anti muslim even when it is directed against them as a person for the way they act. I have had muslims refuse to allow me to perform work on a property they rented from me and then later complain to the local EO board that I mistreated them. Back when it happened, I let the call go to my voice mail because the guy had been so vile. I kept the message. We did not have to worry about storage life with my cell provider back then. I some how knew I'd need it, and therefore had it when he filed the complaint two months later.

382 Carridine  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:51:53pm

re: #365 DisturbedEma
For a disturbing parallel, see North Korean guards out-doing the inhumanity of their Japanese masters, during WWII. Beastly, gross...

383 Alibaba  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:51:56pm

Yet he has money to pay for a plane ticket? Who sponsored this guy's trip? re: #364 MandyManners

384 yochanan  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:52:30pm

re: #365 DisturbedEma

the kapo working in the death camp pushing people into the showers knew he was a dead man walking maybe even more than the ones he pushed.

now you have to ask why did the french vichy police do it with as much vigor as they did. when the germans asked for 500 jews they sent 5,000

385 wiffersnapper  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:52:37pm

Looks like we have ourselves a case of an Ahmanutjob wannabe.

386 formercorpsman  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:52:55pm

re: #347 Palandine

Here's my story, yochanan.

In the 1950s my parents had two kids and lived in a city. The baby was born with clubbed feet, and suffered from colic for a year. He NEVER stopped crying. (At age two, he would be diagnosed as mildly retarded--he's my big brother, but I will be his guardian some day.) It was a terribly hot summer, with no air conditioning. The baby was sick, and my mom was at her wit's end. She called her Jewish pediatrician, on the Sabbath, and asked him to make a house call. He did, and comforted and treated the baby as best he could. Mom went to get the cash to pay him for the house call. He must have observed my family's poverty, and exhaustion with the sick baby, and wouldn't take a dime.

My mother tells that story whenever anyone around her tries to say anything bad about Jewish people. In this country, good people will have the backs of other good people, always.

Yes, they will.

387 wolfie  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:53:00pm

re: #329 jcw46

Oh no offense taken with your post. I was attempting to reassure you that you might receive a better reception out here in farm country than you may think.

It's odd......I mean, considering stereotypes, etc.....but I have lived in the mountains of SW Va for over 20 years and have never heard a single anti-semitic remark from a local.
From a few university profs, yes. (All Yankees or foreign.)
From the bitter and clingy typical whiteys, no.

And BTW, I do not believe that most evangelicals support Israel because of end times theology. It goes much deeper than that.
Something about "I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you." Something about that bumper sticker you see on pick-up trucks around here:"My boss is a Jewish carpenter."

388 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:53:04pm

re: #360 The Shadow Do

In the very smallest way I can appreciate that. When I took my daughter to Sunday school (Jewish) years ago, in a very non-threatening and liberal community (Boulder Co), I found myself looking about for threats as I drove into the Temple parking lot. I would ask myself - "what the hell is wrong with you, you stupid Goy?".

Not paranoid at all. Alan Berg probably thought Denver was a safe and liberal town.

389 DisturbedEma  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:53:06pm

re: #338 jcw46

Well yes, that was the point of my asking.
Sadly many christians saw Nazism the same way. Perhaps not in the beginning but after, when they saw what happened to those who fought. Not saying it's something to be proud of or excuse. Just human nature.


The current pope was in Hilter's youth. . .cause you know, EVERYBODY was doing it. . .except Raoul Wallenberg. . .various embassy workers in the Chinese embassy, and thousands of gentiles who did not go along. . .

390 NY Nana  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:53:43pm

re: #364 MandyManners

I just disinfected my browser.

391 So?  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:54:13pm

re: #208 Charles

By letting creeps like Irving speak, you discover their associates and their networks of support.

By all means, don't try to stop him. Let him talk.

And then what? Watch as the tentacles continue to spread and continue to buy more binoculars to watch those. Yes, let's watch, but then what?

392 wiffersnapper  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:54:32pm

Again, good bathroom reading for this topic: The Hitler Myth by Ian Kershaw.

393 tradewind  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:54:34pm

re: #364 MandyManners

Makes me all warm and fuzzy to think about him losing his (brown) shirt.
:)
And I notice the idiot continues to insist he was ' libeled' ..... someone should tell him that truth is an absolute defense, and that her defense was found valid by the court.

394 Dr. Shalit  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:54:42pm

re: #372 jcw46

Tolerance or ignorance? what are pop. numbers Jew vs muslim?
although I spent a lot of time in various cities, jews seemed to be more visible than muslim(and not just because of distinctiveness of peyots or kipahs).
Because of confusing muslim with other turban wearing peoples?

"jcw46" -

DEAL IS - The Jews within them compete directly with the Gentile/Christian Population. The Muslims Do Not to the same degree. The Muslims DO however, clobber BOTH GROUPS in birthrate and incarceration rate.

-S-

395 sparrowlake  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:55:00pm

re: #361 tradewind

As disgusting as it is to hear any mutant deny the horror that was the Holocaust, it freaks me out to see that there are actual laws against having stupid/hateful opinions in Europe....
Heaven forbid that kind of crap happens here, P.O.**
(post Obama)

The only reason for one to deny the holocaust is to foster anti-Semitism and to torment survivors and their families. As such, I view holocaust denial as an intentional act designed to inflict physical and psychological harm.
Heaven forbid indeed.

396 shiplord kirel  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:55:57pm

re: #325 MandyManners

I'm surprised no one's suggested ShortShit yet. Or, David Duke.

I think we have a winner. Duke has the only national organization capable of organizing such a tour or at least of drumming up an audience in each of a number of cities. Duke could also help organize outside funding. Sixteen bucks a head might cover Irving's expenses, but I doubt it.

On the free speech issue, it is one thing for a citizen like Duke to abuse his birthright by spreading this filth-- for the sake of others, we are stuck with that-- but quite something else for a foreigner to be let into the country to do it. Irving should be deported and there should to be an investigation into how and why he was let in to begin with.

397 The Shadow Do  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:56:00pm

re: #388 MandyManners

Not paranoid at all. Alan Berg probably thought Denver was a safe and liberal town.

No, he knew his ass was on the line. I listened to him. He would challenge and taunt those bastards. God bless Alan Berg.

398 DisturbedEma  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:56:06pm

re: #384 yochanan

the kapo working in the death camp pushing people into the showers knew he was a dead man walking maybe even more than the ones he pushed.

now you have to ask why did the french vichy police do it with as much vigor as they did. when the germans asked for 500 jews they sent 5,000


But you CANNOT dismiss the rightous with the scum! They deserve recognition for their risk and their aid!

My husband's family was in the underground, he has family damaged beyond belief. . .yes, though I was/am FFB, I married a gentile. . .

399 JCM  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:56:08pm

re: #363 Carridine

Interesting take, and I agree with it in many respects. However he got to the point he is at. He has the means to manipulate things to his "vision."

Very dangerous in any regards, as his vision seems very much contrary to our liberties.

400 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:56:27pm

re: #362 ted

I live on the UES of Manhattan. There are enough of self-hating Jews there to make sure its well attended.

Guilt for not living in Israel? For having some family members who lived through the Holocausts?

401 DisturbedEma  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:57:03pm

re: #397 The Shadow Do

No, he knew his ass was on the line. I listened to him. He would challenge and taunt those bastards. God bless Alan Berg.


Z'l

402 MandyManners  Mon, Jul 21, 2008 7:57:03pm