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Rare Complete Dinosaur Skeleton Discovered

Thu, Jul 24, 2008 at 1:32:43 pm PDT

A team of Japanese and Mongolian researchers announced a rare find today: a very well-preserved complete fossilized skeleton of a young dinosaur known as a Tarbosaurus, discovered two years ago in the Gobi desert. This type of theropod lived about 70 million years ago in the Cretaceous Period, and was a predator related to the tyrannosaurus, weighing more than a ton when fully grown. Comments on the meaning of the find: Laelaps : A new juvenile Tarbosaurus.

An interesting note is that the research was conducted by a natural history museum owned by a private high tech company: Greg Laden’s Blog : Gobi Dinosaur is ‘complete skeleton’.

Hayashibara Museum of Natural Science of Hayashibara Group and Matsushita Electric Indutrial Co., Ltd. plan to develop new cultural facility “Digital Museum-Dinosaur Factory-” inside “Panasonic Center” which will be a base for receiving and sending information and will open in the autumn 2002. The museum is designed to foster children’s creativity, satisfy their curiosity and spirit of inquiry, and share the joy of discovery in the process of dinosaur research. The facility will be a new type of museum where each guest can easily obtain information, utilizing state-of-the-art digital technology from Matsushita, about specimens of dinosaur fossils and research results in the possession of Hayashibara Museum of Natural Sciences.

Now there’s a museum I can wholeheartedly support.

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846 comments

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1 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:33:16pm
2 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:33:58pm

Oooh, neat!

3 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:34:32pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

Ya think?

4 mossley  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:34:36pm

"It's all a joke to fool the nonbelievers! It's just a deformed dog."
/

Seriously, that is an incredible find.

5 pingjockey  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:34:43pm

There were no human remains found.

6 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:34:45pm

It's a fake, there's no globular clusters!

7 lawhawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:34:55pm

Digging in the dirt.

9 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:36:04pm

Excessive taxation killed the dinosaurs

10 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:37:04pm

Looks like dog tucker to me.

11 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:37:07pm

Did they find any cave man bones in that slab of rock? No?

I spent 3 days in the Chicago Field Museum. Wonderful place.

12 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:37:37pm

re: #8 WrathofG-d

People have been shot for less than that. :-)

13 gopninja  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:37:45pm

oh whatevm its 10,000 years old, at most.

14 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:38:17pm
15 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:38:30pm

Now, I gotta get stuck in to some work coz I'm skiving off with some buddies for a deer hunt this weekend..................so long suckers.......

16 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:38:44pm

Oh, what a cute little baby!

17 Spiny Norman  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:39:41pm

re: #7 lawhawk

Digging in the dirt.

Ooh! A Peter Gabriel referrence!

18 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:39:51pm

re: #16 MandyManners

Oh, what a cute little baby!


(Mandy) sister!

19 oh_dude  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:39:55pm

LIES!
Right up there with the myth about instant noodles.

20 looking closely  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:40:03pm

God put that dinosaur skeleton there to test your faith.

21 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:40:12pm

Doesn't look a day over 2,000 to me.

22 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:40:18pm

I'm still waiting for fossilized Tyrannosaur tracks with human footprints superimposed onto them in the mud before it hardened.

23 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:40:26pm

re: #20 looking closely

God put that dinosaur skeleton there to test your faith.


I did not!

24 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:40:47pm

re: #16 MandyManners

Oh, what a cute little baby!

You laugh......

25 astronmr20  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:40:51pm

McCain?

(ducks)

26 looking closely  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:40:56pm

re: #23 A Kiwi Infidel

I did not!

/You failed the test.

27 WrathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:41:13pm
28 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:41:43pm

re: #24 jcm

You laugh......


How do you find this stuff?

29 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:41:52pm

re: #1 buzzsawmonkey

Good one.

*turning green*

30 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:42:05pm

MMMMM, a big Denver omelet!

I say that can't be more than 500 years old. Everyone knows Henry V's troops were dismounted at Agincourt only because they had to eat their raptor steeds the night before! Or was it that the raptor steeds were eating them? I don't remember which.

31 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:42:15pm

re: #20 looking closely

God put that dinosaur skeleton there to test your faith.

No joke. A teacher of mine once told me that. It was a turn-off to orthodoxy to say the least.

32 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:42:42pm

re: #26 looking closely

/You failed the test.


Impossible to fail a test that you set, yourself.

33 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:43:21pm

re: #15 A Kiwi Infidel

Now, I gotta get stuck in to some work coz I'm skiving off with some buddies for a deer hunt this weekend..................so long suckers.......

If you're still around ... you have deer in NZ? Were they imported as a game animal?

34 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:43:25pm

OK, gotta go, see y'all in 3 days time.

35 looking closely  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:43:29pm

re: #22 maddogg

I'm still waiting for fossilized Tyrannosaur tracks with human footprints superimposed onto them in the mud before it hardened.

But remember, where the human footprints disappear, that's where the dinosaur was eating carrying you.

36 ladycatnip  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:43:31pm

#9 experiencedtraveler

Excessive taxation killed the dinosaurs

That, combined with a t-rex telling the vegan dinosaurs to pursue peace and tear down the walls between the meat-eaters and vegetarians. All the other dinosaurs got excited and began calling him The One, until he tore them into pieces - all for himself.

37 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:43:39pm

re: #25 astronmr20

McCain?

(ducks)

McCain probably WAS alive with the dinosaurs...

38 astronmr20  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:43:44pm

re: #34 A Kiwi Infidel

OK, gotta go, see y'all in 3 days time.

Good hunting!

39 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:43:57pm

re: #26 looking closely

And here at Castle Anthrax, we have only one punishment for failing tests...

40 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:44:08pm
a very well-preserved complete fossilized skeleton of a young dinosaur known as a Tarbosaurus, discovered two years ago in the Gobi desert

Clearly, it drowned in Noah's Flood. Duh.

42 looking closely  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:44:19pm

re: #32 A Kiwi Infidel

Impossible to fail a test that you set, yourself.


Sure it is, and now you've failed twice.

/Want to try for three?

43 astronmr20  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:44:27pm

re: #36 ladycatnip

#9 experiencedtraveler

That, combined with a t-rex telling the vegan dinosaurs to pursue peace and tear down the walls between the meat-eaters and vegetarians. All the other dinosaurs got excited and began calling him The One, until he tore them into pieces - all for himself.

Obamasaurus?

44 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:44:28pm

re: #34 A Kiwi Infidel

OK, gotta go, see y'all in 3 days time.


Real time, or 'young earth' time?

45 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:44:57pm

re: #44 EC Marm

That would mean he left and came back already.

46 WrathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:45:11pm

re: #41 Neo Con since 9-11

Conclusive evidence.

There you go! Case closed! I can provide websites! with video evidence! Ha, take that Evolutionists!

47 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:45:26pm

re: #18 A Kiwi Infidel

Dontcha' just wanna' pinch its cheek and say "cootchie-cootchie coo"?

48 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:45:35pm

re: #33 pre-Boomer Marine brat

If you're still around ... you have deer in NZ? Were they imported as a game animal?


Yes, all deer in NZ are considered a Noxious animal and are all fair game. NZ has no native mammal other than a bat and a seal. All other mammals have been brought in, usually to the detriment of the country's flora and fauna.

49 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:46:16pm

re: #48 A Kiwi Infidel

Thanks for the pause to reply.
Good hunting!

50 JamesWI  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:46:24pm

OK, who wants to take bets on how long it will take before KalvinB shows up with his diatribe against dating methods? 100 posts? 200? Or, like usual, until the thread has slowed down and he can try to slip in his idiocy relatively unnoticed.

51 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:46:38pm

re: #42 looking closely

Sure it is, and now you've failed twice.

/Want to try for three?

Its a good thing you are not a deer.

52 astronmr20  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:46:47pm

re: #48 A Kiwi Infidel

Yes, all deer in NZ are considered a Noxious animal and are all fair game. NZ has no native mammal other than a bat and a seal. All other mammals have been brought in, usually to the detriment of the country's flora and fauna.

What is the terrain like where you are hunting?

yes, deer can be serious pests. In many parts where I live, hunting season needs to be WAY longer. It's a problem.

53 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:47:10pm

Thank you, and good-day all. Coochie Coo, Mandy.

54 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:47:29pm

re: #47 MandyManners

Dontcha' just wanna' pinch its cheek and say "cootchie-cootchie coo"?

And what do you think its response would be?

55 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:47:52pm

re: #27 WrathofG-d

Much better. I hate despise loath that creature.

56 looking closely  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:47:56pm

re: #31 Creeping Eruption

No joke. A teacher of mine once told me that. It was a turn-off to orthodoxy to say the least.


/You fail too!

I was kidding, but I know that people actually do say these things.

The existence of dinosuars really only poses a problem if you believe that the Old Testament is *literally* true (ie that the world is only 6000 years old, and that God physically sculpted man out of earth and breathed life into his nostrils).

Then again, evolution really only poses a problem if you believe the above.

/Then again, belief only poses a problem if you lack faith.

57 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:48:22pm

re: #51 A Kiwi Infidel

Its a good thing you are not a deer.

LOL!

58 shira  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:48:46pm

Some musical evolutionary humor from an American expat folk-singer who now lives in Israel. Enjoy.

59 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:48:52pm

re: #54 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And what do you think its response would be?

Projectile vomit?

60 looking closely  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:49:11pm

re: #51 A Kiwi Infidel

Its a good thing you are not a deer.

/Can you prove that I am not?

So its "open season" on all deer in NZ?
That sounds sort of tasty.
How big do they get down there?

61 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:49:41pm

re: #52 astronmr20

What is the terrain like where you are hunting?
yes, deer can be serious pests. In many parts where I live, hunting season needs to be WAY longer. It's a problem.

Like this

62 marjoriemoon  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:49:52pm

re: #8 WrathofG-d

Science: Proof Dinosaurs and Humans Coexisted Together.

Fred Flintstone has him beat by a mile.

63 WrathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:50:05pm

Dinosaurs were more 'human' than first believed.

I get the feeling the one above got drunk at the local bar and fell asleep in a gutter, and just never got up.

64 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:50:20pm

re: #54 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Depends on which cheek you try to pinch.

65 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:50:26pm

someone ,, hurry ,, drill ,, RIGHT THERE ,,, RIGHT NOW ,,, There's OIL under them there bones !

66 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:50:26pm

My grandson thought the Creation Museum's saddled triceratops was extremely cool. I suspect that he is just possibly hinting that I should look into getting one for him.
I told him that the saddled dino was made by people who think it was real. He said nobody could be that dumb. He is 7 years old.

67 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:50:54pm

re: #28 A Kiwi Infidel

How do you find this stuff?

I remember all kinds of useless crap, enough so I can search up an article pretty quickly.

68 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:51:30pm

re: #60 looking closely

Fallow are the smallest, stags live weight 100kg, up to Wapiti (Elk)

We are hunting Fallow and Red, Red stags up to 300KG

69 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:51:44pm

re: #59 MandyManners

Projectile vomit?

Baby teeth sunk deep into your hand?

While we're at it, visualize Momma's response.

/running screaming away from my computer

70 astronmr20  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:51:52pm

re: #61 A Kiwi Infidel

Gorgeous.

Enjoy and reconnect with yourself. (Or disconnect, whichever benefits your more).

Happy hunting!

71 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:52:30pm

OK I really must go, thanks for the interest, I will duly report in later.

Kiwi out

72 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:52:37pm

re: #64 calcajun

Depends on which cheek you try to pinch.

Gee, somehow I was expecting Mandy to come up with that first.

73 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:52:48pm

re: #65 sattv4u2

someone ,, hurry ,, drill ,, RIGHT THERE ,,, RIGHT NOW ,,, There's OIL under them there bones !

Do you know where oil comes from? I don't, nor does anyone else.

74 chicagodudewhotrades  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:52:50pm

re: #11 maddogg

'Sue' the T-rex there is pretty cool. I got some good pics the last time I was there.

75 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:53:10pm

re: #72 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I've been hanging around here far too long.

76 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:53:32pm

re: #56 looking closely

/You fail too!

I was kidding, but I know that people actually do say these things.

The existence of dinosuars really only poses a problem if you believe that the Old Testament is *literally* true (ie that the world is only 6000 years old, and that God physically sculpted man out of earth and breathed life into his nostrils).

Then again, evolution really only poses a problem if you believe the above.

/Then again, belief only poses a problem if you lack faith.

No sarc tag needed. Frankly, I think your analysis is spot on.

77 ladycatnip  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:53:36pm

#43 astronmr20

re: #36 ladycatnip

#9 experiencedtraveler

That, combined with a t-rex telling the vegan dinosaurs to pursue peace and tear down the walls between the meat-eaters and vegetarians. All the other dinosaurs got excited and began calling him The One, until he tore them into pieces - all for himself.

Obamasaurus?

Love it!

78 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:53:39pm
79 looking closely  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:53:53pm

re: #68 A Kiwi Infidel

Fallow are the smallest, stags live weight 100kg, up to Wapiti (Elk)

We are hunting Fallow and Red, Red stags up to 300KG

That's a tasty burger.

Via the surface area rule, the colder the climate, the larger the deer.

/Or maybe God just put them there.

80 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:53:58pm

re: #74 chicagodudewhotrades

'Sue' the T-rex there is pretty cool. I got some good pics the last time I was there.

Me too! I got the impression she was a bitch, though...

81 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:54:00pm

re: #75 calcajun

I've been hanging around here far too long.

I know exactly what you mean.

82 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:54:04pm

re: #73 maddogg

Do you know where oil comes from? I don't, nor does anyone else.

Mine comes from WAL MART. They have it in plastic bottles in the CAR CARE aisle!

83 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:54:19pm

re: #63 WrathofG-d

That baby looks like a young Jabba the Hut

84 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:55:09pm

re: #61 A Kiwi Infidel

Like this

Is that Frodo I see?

85 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:55:33pm

re: #83 Bubblehead II

That baby looks like a young Jabba the Hut

and his Italian sibling, Pizza The Hut

86 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:55:41pm

Now this is scary. The only good news from Barry O's Tragical History Tour is that he got no bounce at all and is in a statistical dead heat with Uncle Grumpy.

[Link: www.politico.com...]

I honestly think he is starting to believe his own press,

87 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:55:57pm

re: #82 sattv4u2

Mine comes from WAL MART. They have it in plastic bottles in the CAR CARE aisle!

Then obviously, oil comes from China.

88 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:56:24pm

It means nothing more than "a very well-preserved complete fossilized skeleton of a young dinosaur known as a Tarbosaurus"

So, what's your point Charles?

/channeling Cognito

89 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:56:27pm

re: #87 maddogg

Then obviously, oil comes from China.

see! ,, and you said we didn;'t know !

feh !

90 docremulac  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:56:32pm

The saddle it's wearing is clearly visible at the bottom of the picture.
;)

91 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:56:33pm

re: #66 Shiplord Kirel

My grandson thought the Creation Museum's saddled triceratops was extremely cool. I suspect that he is just possibly hinting that I should look into getting one for him.
I told him that the saddled dino was made by people who think it was real. He said nobody could be that dumb. He is 7 years old.

The museum has a dinosaur with a saddle on it?

92 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:56:34pm

re: #85 sattv4u2

For that, I'd like to reach and touch you...with a 20 oz framing hammer.

93 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:56:46pm

I'm not positive, mind you. But I noticed something just to the left of the jawline and when I took the image into Photoshop and adjusted the brightest, contrast, and gamma factors to nominal ranges of the x coefficient I found an interesting artifact.

94 astronmr20  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:56:52pm

re: #78 Occasional Reader

Proof the dinosaurs, humans, babes, bikinis and lip gloss coexisted

Hmmm.. they are not "coexisting" very well. Better get them some bumper stickers. That will fix it.

/moonbat synopsis

95 yochanan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:57:13pm

can i have a leg?

96 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:57:15pm

re: #90 docremulac

Triceratops with a saddle? Kinky.

97 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:57:51pm

re: #95 yochanan

You sound like Joe Pesci in Goodfellas

98 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:57:55pm

re: #92 calcajun

For that, I'd like to reach and touch you...with a 20 oz framing hammer.

and his Norwegian cousin, Lille-hammer!

99 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:58:02pm

What a wonderful fossil!

Here are our little dinosaurs. Much tamer than your everyday allosaurus!

100 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:58:17pm

re: #84 MandyManners

Is that Frodo I see?

That would be Bilbo and a small company of Dwarves.
/Are they filming that yet?

101 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:58:45pm

re: #97 Creeping Eruption

I can "dig" that comparison.

102 WrathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:58:56pm

re: #83 Bubblehead II

"not the maaamaaaa" funny(ish) show.

103 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:59:00pm

re: #93 EC Marm

I'm not positive, mind you. But I noticed something just to the left of the jawline and when I took the image into Photoshop and adjusted the brightest, contrast, and gamma factors to nominal ranges of the x coefficient I found an interesting artifact.

That man gets around.

104 docremulac  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:59:05pm

re: #96 calcajun

"re: #90 docremulac

Triceratops with a saddle? Kinky."

Ouch!

105 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:59:18pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

and his Norwegian cousin, Lille-hammer!

Is it Hammertime?

106 astronmr20  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:59:27pm

re: #100 CyanSnowHawk

That would be Bilbo and a small company of Dwarves.
/Are they filming that yet?

They are doing the first book?


Didn't know.


Who is gonna play Smog?

107 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:59:38pm

re: #100 CyanSnowHawk

That would be Bilbo and a small company of Dwarves.
/Are they filming that yet?

I wish they'd filmed that one.

108 fudgypup  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 1:59:49pm

Tarnation! Satan put those bones there to make us question Creation.

109 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:00:10pm

re: #101 calcajun

I can "dig" that comparison.

What, are you and Sattv4u2 vying for the worst puns on the thread award today?

110 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:00:12pm

re: #98 sattv4u2

Argh. Come over here and you'll find how neatly my hands fit round your throat.

That is really bad.

111 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:00:21pm

re: #74 chicagodudewhotrades

Jim Butcher has a revived Sue in one of his Dresden Files novels. I had a great time with that!

112 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:01:01pm

re: #99 songbird

What a wonderful fossil!

Here are our little dinosaurs. Much tamer than your everyday allosaurus!

Cute.
And I liked the Ron Paul tag, too.

113 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:01:24pm

re: #109 Creeping Eruption

Believe me; I'll gladly concede that honor to him. Honestly.

114 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:02:05pm

re: #112 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Cute.
And I liked the Ron Paul tag, too.

That Ron Paul tag is left over from our Ron Paul poll answer days!

115 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:02:26pm

re: #97 Creeping Eruption

You sound like Joe Pesci in Goodfellas

You're really funny.

116 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:03:10pm
117 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:03:59pm

re: #91 MandyManners

The museum has a dinosaur with a saddle on it?

re: #96 calcajun

Triceratops with a saddle? Kinky.


Scroll to the bottom of the page.

118 yochanan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:04:04pm

re: #56 looking closely

some ortho believe that but others think G-D spoke in a way that his lowly creation would understand. I remember ready about one Rabbi who used gamatri (hebrew letters also mean different numbers) to prove that the earth was in the billions of years old very close to what current scientists are say and he wrote it back in the middle ages. Long before the men of science of his day said the earth was that old.

Jews have other religious works so offen take other meanings than the literal meaning found in the first 5 books.

119 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:04:21pm

I think I'll finally be able to swing 'Occasional Reader' over to the cevolutionreationist side with this image.

120 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:04:25pm
121 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:04:33pm

re: #114 songbird

If nothing else, it fits with the implied "dinosaur" theme.

122 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:04:45pm

re: #106 astronmr20

They are doing the first book?


Didn't know.


Who is gonna play Smog?

Jack Black?

123 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:05:22pm

re: #110 calcajun

Argh. Come over here and you'll find how neatly my hands fit round your throat.

That is really bad.

Would that be Throat River Arkansas?

[Link: www.mapquest.com...]

124 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:05:51pm

re: #117 Shiplord Kirel

Scroll to the bottom of the page.

My word.

125 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:05:58pm

re: #106 astronmr20

They are doing the first book?
Didn't know.
Who is gonna play Smog?

Rosie O' wouldn't even have to act, she could use the Keanu Reeves method and just be herself.

The legal issues are all ironed out and the project is supposed to be green lit. Hearing some odd things about it though, like maybe 2 movies, with the second being some sort of bridge between the end of The Hobbit and the start of LotR. I hope they just stay with The Hobbit, unless there is a Tolkein written intermediate story. (Maybe from the Lost Tales? I haven't read that. I don't recall any info in the Silmarillion that touched on that time.)

126 WrathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:06:00pm

re: #118 yochanan

I've also been told that the "years" can explain when Man first got a soul, not when the world was created.

I figure its all about "time".

127 marjoriemoon  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:06:13pm

re: #62 marjoriemoon

Fred Flintstone has him beat by a mile.

You guys are too fast. I really hate it when I'm late to the party, particularly when the all the drinks and horse doovers are gone :(

128 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:07:29pm

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

I want to see a move to retrofit mechanical riding bulls into saddled Triceratops.

Y'know how they use a "rabbit" at the dog tracks? How about an Iron Man race with a mechanical Tyranosaurus bringing up the rear?

129 Bob in Breckenridge  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:07:32pm

re: #11 maddogg

Did they find any cave man bones in that slab of rock? No?

I spent 3 days in the Chicago Field Museum. Wonderful place.

Did you see Sue?

130 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:07:59pm

re: #120 buzzsawmonkey

I want to see a move to retrofit mechanical riding bulls into saddled Triceratops.

The one at the museum is a baby. Even creos must realize that saddle-breaking a full-grown tric would be a tall order. The royal purple blanket on the saddled specimen is also interesting. A mount for antediluvian kings?

131 Cicero05  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:08:16pm

What the article didn't say is that the critter's fossil was found clutching a papyrus card in its dinosaur hand, with Babylonian cuneiform characters on it.

Ancient language scholars swear that it reads, "Good for Passage for One, Ark Cabin 55, Lido Deck."

132 Bubblehead II  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:08:22pm

Well I need to get something done today so I am outa here.

L8R

133 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:08:48pm

They can tell it is a juvenile tarbosaurus because it has an iPod stuck in its ear, it was found far away from the adults because they were so "lame", and apparently didn't listen when its parent told him to watch out for that bog.

134 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:08:58pm

re: #119 EC Marm

I think I'll finally be able to swing 'Occasional Reader' over to the cevolutionreationist side with this image.

Verily, Jessica has seized my heart like a hungry velociraptor.

135 marjoriemoon  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:08:59pm

re: #118 yochanan

some ortho believe that but others think G-D spoke in a way that his lowly creation would understand. I remember ready about one Rabbi who used gamatri (hebrew letters also mean different numbers) to prove that the earth was in the billions of years old very close to what current scientists are say and he wrote it back in the middle ages. Long before the men of science of his day said the earth was that old.

Jews have other religious works so offen take other meanings than the literal meaning found in the first 5 books.

That was Rabbi Isaac of Akko, one of Nahmanides' disciples. He lived in the 13th century, 700 years prior to the science of evolution.

136 Bob in Breckenridge  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:09:09pm

Hannity's playing Reagan's "Tear down this wall" speech.

137 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:09:51pm

re: #136 Bob in Breckenridge

Hannity's playing Reagan's "Tear down this wall" speech.

ooooooo ... GREAT!

138 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:10:45pm

re: #126 WrathofG-d

I've also been told that the "years" can explain when Man first got a soul, not when the world was created.

I figure its all about "time".

It's the way I take it. I have my own heretical mixed allegory theories.

Adam and Eve represent the beginning of souls/consciousness as opposed to pre-men. Losing the Garden of Eden represents the beginning of history/civilization. Cain and Abel represent the conflict between hunter-gatherers and agriculture.

/If anyone wants to stone me, better bury me pretty deep because I will be coming at you

139 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:10:46pm

re: #133 Silhouette

They can tell it is a juvenile tarbosaurus because it has an iPod stuck in its ear, it was found far away from the adults because they were so "lame", and apparently didn't listen when its parent told him to watch out for that bog.

Juvenile tarbosaurs also made a very distinct sound: "Roaarrr, like, roaaar, like, roaaaar, like..."

140 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:10:55pm

re: #129 Bob in Breckenridge

Did you see Sue?

Sue is in Gray, TN right now.

Or was a few months ago when I saw her there.

141 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:11:10pm

re: #117 Shiplord Kirel

Scroll to the bottom of the page.

That is truly beyond all comprehension.

142 yochanan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:11:10pm

there is a place for religion and a place for science, remember when communism used science as an excuse to out law religion. I my opinion it is better to take the middle road than eather of the extreme roads. no religion is just as bad as no science

143 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:11:25pm

Later Lizards. Ditching work early to go home and get ready to see Dark Knight.

144 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:11:33pm

re: #130 Shiplord Kirel

The one at the museum is a baby. Even creos must realize that saddle-breaking a full-grown tric would be a tall order. The royal purple blanket on the saddled specimen is also interesting. A mount for antediluvian kings?

Way down
Below the ocean

145 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:12:09pm

re: #117 Shiplord Kirel

I meant to be funny. But,...oh bother. I keep repeating my self from other threads. These are the people who want religion to explain science and not the other way around. This museum is like Legoland; as long as everyone knows that there are heavy doses of make-believe in there and nothing really represents reality, then it's harmless.

146 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:12:33pm

re: #133 Silhouette

They can tell it is a juvenile tarbosaurus because it has an iPod stuck in its ear, it was found far away from the adults because they were so "lame", and apparently didn't listen when its parent told him to watch out for that bog.

Don't forget the fossilized zits.

147 astronmr20  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:12:41pm

re: #142 yochanan

there is a place for religion and a place for science, remember when communism used science as an excuse to out law religion. I my opinion it is better to take the middle road than eather of the extreme roads. no religion is just as bad as no science

Unless the only religion is Islam...

148 WrathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:12:45pm

re: #138 OldLineTexan

as to the stoning part....are you a "rising of the dead" believer? (ie: christian)...in that case.....burying wont' be enough.

149 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:13:24pm

re: #143 Creeping Eruption

Later Lizards. Ditching work early to go home and get ready to see Dark Knight.

How long does it take to shuck your pants and change into your Joker Underoos? Sheesh!

/

150 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:13:26pm

re: #134 Occasional Reader

Verily, Jessica has seized my heart like a hungry velociraptor.


I'm not sure I staid on topic here... What was the topic again?

151 mfarmer1  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:13:59pm

If you look very closely, the rib cage bones spell out "Allah" proving that human hands assisted in the burial.

Either that or it's time for a new thread entitled "The Dreaded Bones of Tarbosaurus Blasphemy."

152 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:14:15pm

re: #129 Bob in Breckenridge

Did you see Sue?

Yep.

153 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:14:25pm

re: #148 WrathofG-d

as to the stoning part....are you a "rising of the dead" believer? (ie: christian)...in that case.....burying wont' be enough.

I'm a Christian, but I have read the book and the number of folks that rose from the dead was extremely limited.

154 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:15:11pm

re: #149 OldLineTexan

How long does it take to shuck your pants and change into your Joker Underoos? Sheesh!

/


That is sooo uncalled for. I never wear villain Underoos! Besides, I have to make sure mom washed them. Give me a break!

155 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:15:46pm
156 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:15:59pm

re: #154 Creeping Eruption

That is sooo uncalled for. I never wear villain Underoos! Besides, I have to make sure mom washed them. Give me a break!

Not even on double chilidog Wednesdays?

157 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:16:01pm

Well they finally updated BHO speech page. I guess they couldn't not post his Berlin Triumph.

However one major speech is missing. His July 2, National Security Speech (Released version). The speech where he said off script;

"We cannot continue to rely on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded."

I guess the Brownshirts went under the bus, very quietly too.

158 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:16:24pm

re: #154 Creeping Eruption

You're sharing too much...again.

159 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:16:55pm

re: #156 OldLineTexan

Not even on double chilidog Wednesdays?

They moved that to Mondays.

160 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:17:11pm

re: #145 calcajun

I meant to be funny. But,...oh bother. I keep repeating my self from other threads. These are the people who want religion to explain science and not the other way around. This museum is like Legoland; as long as everyone knows that there are heavy doses of make-believe in there and nothing really represents reality, then it's harmless.

If the museum ever goes extinct, it's a sure bet these exhibits will find homes elsewhere. The triceratops would fit nicely in my den, but I probably wouldn't be able to afford it.

161 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:17:19pm

I would love to see Jurassic park come to reality. Talk about an exciting hunting season. Hell, I'd settle for a few Columbian Mammoths and saber tooth cats.

162 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:17:25pm

re: #118 yochanan

some ortho believe that but others think G-D spoke in a way that his lowly creation would understand. I remember ready about one Rabbi who used gamatri (hebrew letters also mean different numbers) to prove that the earth was in the billions of years old very close to what current scientists are say and he wrote it back in the middle ages. Long before the men of science of his day said the earth was that old.

Jews have other religious works so offen take other meanings than the literal meaning found in the first 5 books.

I'm going to jump in on this debate and then quickly disappear. You are right. I've read plenty of Ortho spokesmen (and women) saying that there really is no contradiction between Judaism and science, or the bible (Torah) and science. The problem is when one side tries to nullify the other's arguments with their own texts. Can't be done and needn't be done.

We (people, humans, you know, us) don't know a lot about how the world was made and of what is it composed. Doctors can't even cure the common cold. We don't know much about the spiritual world, either. It's mostly mystery. But the bible teaches moral behavior while science illuminates physical matter. Can't we all just get along? [who said that?]

I really like looking at dinosaurs. I hope and pray that someday we can cure cancer. Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to a nice scotch neat, tomorrow night pre-shabbat.

163 amphibian  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:17:27pm

Barney was looking for his dog. How to break it to him -- "good news is, we found Spot..."?

164 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:17:28pm

re: #99 songbird

What a wonderful fossil!

Here are our little dinosaurs. Much tamer than your everyday allosaurus!

Those are Reptilia, not Dinosauria

Dinosauria = Birds / Dinosaurs

165 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:17:39pm

re: #159 Silhouette

They moved that to Mondays.

No, you're thinking of Mega-weenie Monday...

166 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:17:42pm

re: #144 OldLineTexan

Way down
Below the ocean

167 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:17:46pm

re: #156 OldLineTexan

NOT EVEN! Besides, it could get my cape messy, and it is a bitch eating through a cowl.

168 zombie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:18:16pm

re: #151 mfarmer1

If you look very closely, the rib cage bones spell out "Allah" proving that human hands assisted in the burial.

Either that or it's time for a new thread entitled "The Dreaded Bones of Tarbosaurus Blasphemy."

Y'know, I thought you werre joking and was going to make a follow-up joke, but I looked at the picture again, and -- you're right! The ribs DO spell out "Allah"!

169 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:18:19pm
170 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:19:07pm

What? Its bad pun day and nobody told me?

171 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:19:20pm

re: #157 jcm

Well they finally updated BHO speech page. I guess they couldn't not post his Berlin Triumph.

However one major speech is missing. His July 2, National Security Speech (Released version). The speech where he said off script;


I guess the Brownshirts went under the bus, very quietly too.


BHO keeps on stepping on his tongue (I said tongue). He is the gift that keeps on giving.

172 quickjustice  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:19:28pm

Any sign of Fred Flintstone or Barney Rubble in the vicinity?

173 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:19:40pm

re: #164 Thanos

Those are Reptilia, not Dinosauria

So that cavegirl in the museum was coexisting with a large, ugly chicken.

It makes sense now.

174 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:19:57pm

re: #157 jcm

What are you talking about? Look at Bill Richardson these days and his muy macho Mephistophelian facial hair. He might be our next Ernst Rhom. Lemme try to translate Barry O's speech: I want a nation of informants that will make East Germany look tame. I want our military dismantled so that my latter-day SS will enforce my will.

Tell me I'm wrong to be a little apprehensive.

175 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:20:05pm

re: #168 zombie

Y'know, I thought you werre joking and was going to make a follow-up joke, but I looked at the picture again, and -- you're right! The ribs DO spell out "Allah"!

And you thought they were just ribbing you!

176 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:20:26pm

re: #164 Thanos

Those are Reptilia, not Dinosauria

Dinosauria = Birds / Dinosaurs

Regardless, they are lovely and so perfectly formed that it is hard to believe they evolved.

177 faraway  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:20:29pm

If you look closely, you can see "Made by God" on the leg bone.

178 Summer  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:20:35pm

It was just put there to dupe us into questioning and testing our faith of The Voluspo Edda.

It is obvious when you look at it from the top that it represents The Life Tree.

179 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:20:49pm

re: #173 OldLineTexan

Not if it was an Allosaur, they are much older than the transitional dinos that had feathers etc.

180 yochanan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:20:56pm

if some one is in a coma and were to come out of it to a uneduacted person they might say the rose from the dead. More than one coffen has been found scratches on the inside.

It isn't fair to judge people by todays standards as even in my life time we have learned so much. for example ♥ transplants were unknown and not even though of in my youth.

181 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:21:03pm

re: #176 songbird

Regardless, they are lovely and so perfectly formed that it is hard to believe they evolved.

That they are!

182 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:21:11pm

re: #160 Shiplord Kirel

You can put a little oscillating motor on them and charge the kiddies a quarter a ride.

183 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:21:55pm

re: #168 zombie

Saudi excavation.
Science!

184 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:21:57pm

re: #179 Thanos

Yeah, that was kind of a joke.

185 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:22:04pm

re: #160 Shiplord Kirel

Didn't they have to sell their mammoth skull?

186 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:22:20pm

re: #179 Thanos

The dinos wore feathers? You mean like in boas? Were they into show tunes and Judy Garland, too? That why they died out.

187 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:22:22pm

re: #181 Thanos

That they are!

Lovely or evolved ;-)

/quoth the ID gal!

188 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:22:23pm

Slightly OT, but not really, if you think about it:

The freshly-banned BabbaZee calling Charles Johnson 'satan' and 'an attention whore' (among other lovely characterizations) in the comment section of Gagdad Bob's latest post:

[Link: www.blogger.com...]

Nice!

189 faraway  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:22:51pm

The entire evolution vs. creation question will be going out the window soon.

Lord Obama will be declaring himself Overlord of all creatures in the Milky Way come January.

190 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:22:53pm

re: #186 calcajun

The dinos wore feathers? You mean like in boas? Were they into show tunes and Judy Garland, too? That why they died out.

That brings us right back to BARNEY!

191 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:22:59pm

re: #94 astronmr20

Hmmm.. they are not "coexisting" very well. Better get them some bumper stickers. That will fix it.

/moonbat synopsis

The prehistoric bikini babes are an obvious evolutionary adaptation. After a hard day of fighting tyrannosaurs and bashing Neanderthals, the cave dudes must have pretty tired by the time they got home to the females. The survival of the species required some way to arouse their, er, interest and get their, uh, energy level up during the evening hours.

192 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:23:01pm

re: #165 OldLineTexan

No, you're thinking of Mega-weenie Monday...

I was sitting there hoping you would post that. ;-)

193 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:23:13pm

re: #168 zombie

Y'know, I thought you werre joking and was going to make a follow-up joke, but I looked at the picture again, and -- you're right! The ribs DO spell out "Allah"!


Five tiny little blips of the mouse!

194 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:23:19pm

re: #186 calcajun

The dinos wore feathers? You mean like in boas? Were they into show tunes and Judy Garland, too? That why they died out.

Yes, they were pink and flowing.

195 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:23:25pm

re: #174 calcajun

What are you talking about? Look at Bill Richardson these days and his muy macho Mephistophelian facial hair. He might be our next Ernst Rhom. Lemme try to translate Barry O's speech: I want a nation of informants that will make East Germany look tame. I want our military dismantled so that my latter-day SS will enforce my will.

Tell me I'm wrong to be a little apprehensive.

I'm with you, even more so that BHO official buried that speech. He spoke off script, meaning it was what's in his head it's typical Marxism thought that an internal security force is needed.

196 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:23:33pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

Saudi excavation.
Science!

I saw that guy's brother do that same act in the first Alien movie.

197 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:23:43pm

re: #190 songbird

I know. Baby Bop is definitely his beard.

198 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:24:06pm

re: #188 medaura18586
You are a bitch.

199 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:24:07pm

re: #186 calcajun

The dinos wore feathers? You mean like in boas? Were they into show tunes and Judy Garland, too? That why they died out.

Those are the very Tricerabottoms buzzsaw was referring to.

(NTTAWWT)

200 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:24:21pm

re: #185 Dianna

Didn't they have to sell their mammoth skull?

They were using it as a bong one night, and got so completely stoned that they eBay'd it.

201 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:24:47pm

re: #186 calcajun

The dinos wore feathers? You mean like in boas? Were they into show tunes and Judy Garland, too? That why they died out.

That was the much smaller creation museum in Crosbyton Texas.

202 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:24:51pm

re: #191 Shiplord Kirel

The prehistoric bikini babes are an obvious evolutionary adaptation. After a hard day of fighting tyrannosaurs and bashing Neanderthals, the cave dudes must have pretty tired by the time they got home to the females. The survival of the species required some way to arouse their, er, interest and get their, uh, energy level up during the evening hours.

And that is also why the invention of lip gloss preceded the invention of fire (apparently).

203 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:25:00pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

Saudi excavation.
Science!

Seance

204 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:25:02pm

re: #178 Summer

Are we questioning Snorri Sturlasson now?

205 mfarmer1  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:25:24pm

re: #168 zombie

I was joking but now you've made me go back and look again!
HAHA! Just call me Tiresias the Soothsayer.

I think I saw "Allah" spelled out in my bowl of Pho for lunch today too. I should have preserved it somehow and sold it on eBay but I was really hungry. Allah was yummy.

206 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:25:34pm

re: #198 snowcrash

and screw you too! You don't have a problem at all with the disgusting way your host on this site is being tarred and feathered by disgruntled ex-posters? Speaks volumes about you.

207 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:25:42pm

re: #196 OldLineTexan

...and not far away were a stash of strange, leathery egg-like objects. We have lost contact with our team, but the rescue team will be there shortly.

208 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:25:48pm

re: #188 medaura18586

That's a bummer. I was hoping she wouldn't take that route.

209 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:25:58pm

re: #192 Silhouette

I was sitting there hoping you would post that. ;-)

I have watched too much Spongebob. I enjoy the anarchistic bits far more than I should.

210 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:26:02pm

re: #201 Shiplord Kirel

That was the much smaller creation museum in Crosbyton Texas.

Oops, that was meant for #185, Dianna.

211 offendi  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:26:04pm

An interesting discovery, no doubt. But might others might be un-impressed?:

Al Gore- Does this discovery support my position on global warming? What was these fossils carbon footprint? Unless they drove a Prius I am uninterested.

Ahmadinejad- Are dinosaurs proof of the the hidden Mahdi down the well who I have telepathic communications with? Do these dinosaurs have a bigger aura than I do? These dinosaurs sound like infidels.

U.S. Teachers Unions- Hey you dinosaurs, we have enough hours we have to teach already and don't need to add you to our curriculums ! Read the contract.

212 mich-again  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:26:09pm

re: #175 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And you thought they were just ribbing you!


I kneed a minute to think about that one.

213 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:26:16pm

re: #198 snowcrash

You are a bitch.


I regret I have but one life ding to give.

214 Racer X  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:26:24pm

I'm thinking of making some cool patio furniture. How long does it take to make petrified wood? What is needed to petrify it?

215 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:26:46pm

re: #188 medaura18586

Slightly OT, but not really, if you think about it:

The freshly-banned BabbaZee calling Charles Johnson 'satan' and 'an attention whore' (among other lovely characterizations) in the comment section of Gagdad Bob's latest post:

[Link: www.blogger.com...]

Nice!

I hate it when mommy and daddy fight, even after their divorce.

216 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:26:48pm

re: #201 Shiplord Kirel

Was that the one with the T-Rex version of "A Chorus Line" and a raptor steam-bath?

217 itellu3times  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:27:08pm

re: #189 faraway

Lord Obama will be declaring himself Overlord of all creatures in the Milky Way come January.

Count me as lactose intolerant.

218 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:27:16pm

re: #196 OldLineTexan

I saw that guy's brother do that same act in the first Alien movie.

re: #183 Killgore Trout

Saudi excavation.
Science!

Looks Photoshopped to me. The Bible does talk about a race of big guys - Goliath being one who, I think, was nine feet tall, but that pic is outrageous!

219 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:27:34pm

I'm listening to an interesting audio on LiveScience.com.

The American Enterprise Institute put together a collection of essays called, "Does Science Make Belief in God Obsolete?" The audio features some highlights from a public discussion about the booklet. One of the participants mentions Intelligent Design.

Does Science Condemn God?

220 mich-again  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:27:36pm

re: #214 Racer X
"What is needed to petrify it?"

You have to scare it real bad.

221 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:27:41pm

re: #206 medaura18586
Like I said, you are a bitch.

222 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:27:41pm

What did Babbazee do/say to get banned?

223 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:28:24pm

re: #222 Son of the Black Dog

What did Babbazee do/say to get banned?


Posted a link to another lgfers blog.

224 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:28:39pm

re: #208 Killgore Trout

That's a bummer. I was hoping she wouldn't take that route.


Disagreeing with Charles on anything (even something ban-worthy) is absolutely no sin by itself, but the personal slurs are beneath contempt. Been reading Gagdad Bob's latest today, and his site is turning into a hatefest.

225 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:28:39pm

re: #215 Golem Akbar

I hate it when mommy and daddy fight, even after their divorce.

I'm just glad I was able to stay living with daddy!

226 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:28:51pm

first today - we hear that aliens are real
and now this


the religious nuts' heads are going to explode

I gotta call my mormon family members and run it in a bit

227 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:28:52pm

re: #180 yochanan

if some one is in a coma and were to come out of it to a uneduacted person they might say the rose from the dead. More than one coffen has been found scratches on the inside.

It isn't fair to judge people by todays standards as even in my life time we have learned so much. for example ♥ transplants were unknown and not even though of in my youth.

Silly question.....I was trying yesterday to find the unicode for a heart such as you have in your post.

Do you actually key in "♥" for that or is there an easier way?

228 Summer  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:29:06pm

re: #204 Dianna

Are we questioning Snorri Sturlasson now?

Obviously I'm not. However, I see almost everyone else here is a heretic and shall eventually be struck down with Thorish fury for their belief in false gods and timelines which are outside of the scope of The Eddas.

229 zombie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:29:37pm

BEHOLD!

The Tarbosaurus Allah!

The word "Allas" in Arabic script is spelled out in the ribs of the tarbosaurus skeleton.

Compare it to the infamous Ice-Cream Lid of Allah.

The original photo of the Tarbosaurus ribs is here.

This is an LGF exclusive.

230 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:29:38pm

re: #218 songbird

Looks Photoshopped to me. The Bible does talk about a race of big guys - Goliath being one who, I think, was nine feet tall, but that pic is outrageous!

Robert Pershing Wadlow 8'11. Tallest in modern records.

231 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:29:44pm

re: #226 Adrenalyn

first today - we hear that aliens are real
and now this


the religious nuts' heads are going to explode

I gotta call my mormon family members and run it in a bit

Where?

232 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:29:49pm

I'm getting out of here to get some work done (likely excuse) before KalvinB shows up (finally, honesty!)

233 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:30:18pm

re: #188 medaura18586

Don't. Just, don't.

234 zombie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:30:20pm

The word "Allas" in Arabic script = The word "Allah" in Arabic script

Aagh! Sorry about that.

235 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:30:46pm

re: #228 Summer

Obviously I'm not. However, I see almost everyone else here is a heretic and shall eventually be struck down with Thorish fury for their belief in false gods and timelines which are outside of the scope of The Eddas.

I had a Ford Thorish and a Plymouth Fury once, does that count ?

236 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:30:52pm

re: #225 sattv4u2

I'm just glad I was able to stay living with daddy!


My problem is that I don't dislike either one. Hey, it's not a problem, for me, anyway.

237 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:31:12pm

re: #231 MandyManners

Where?

Screw aliens...why is one more dino fossil gonna explode anyone's head? Aren't there museums loaded with the things? Is this fossil the 1,458,524 holiest fossil in Islam or something?

238 zombie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:31:12pm

re: #229 zombie

BEHOLD!

The Tarbosaurus Allah!

The word "Allah" in Arabic script is spelled out in the ribs of the tarbosaurus skeleton.

Compare it to the infamous Ice-Cream Lid of Allah.

The Tarbosaurus even has the diacritical marks!

239 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:31:19pm

re: #234 zombie

The word "Allas" in Arabic script = The word "Allah" in Arabic script

Aagh! Sorry about that.

Freudian slip.
Wonderful!
Don't take it back!

240 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:31:41pm
241 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:32:21pm

re: #206 medaura18586

I have a problem with someone going out of her way to hunt up the example, and running over here to gleefully post it.

242 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:32:38pm

re: #188 medaura18586

you're a bad messenger. and a desperate one.

243 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:33:13pm

re: #233 Dianna

Don't. Just, don't.

Don't what? Trust me, I do not mean to stir shit, and honestly, if the words used were not so bombastic as to shock even me, I wouldn't have even brought it up. But attention whore? Satan? People who thought she was fighting the good fight better take a look at what is going on.

244 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:33:20pm

re: #231 MandyManners

Where?

an astronaut "divulged" that we've had many contacts over the decades and they've been hidden from an unsuspecting public

now, the old gent is 77 and maybe is confused

then again, The Day The Earth Stood Still is a classic SCI FI movie

first poster to come up with the secret phrase from the movie wins a prize

245 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:33:27pm

re: #240 buzzsawmonkey

Tiresias gained a lot of weight in later years, and his name was changed to Spare-Tiresias.

He had a sister that never fully developed. Her name was Flat Tiresias. Another sister becoame a prostitute. Her name was Blown Tiresias!

(someone, please shoot me ! )

246 mich-again  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:33:37pm

re: #230 jcm
The skeleton in that photo looked to be from a a 15-20 foot tall person, (if it wasn't photoshopped.) Size of a T-rex. That wasn't no tall guy. That was a monster.

247 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:33:46pm

re: #228 Summer

Odin gets a lot more mention, generally, but I've noticed that people were really cautious about tacking "Odin" onto their kids' names.

I tend to think this means they worried about Odin.

248 yochanan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:34:06pm

re: #227 eschew_obfuscation


alt number 3 on the right hand number key

alt + 3(♥)

249 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:34:22pm

re: #240 buzzsawmonkey

Tiresias gained a lot of weight in later years, and his name was changed to Spare-Tiresias.


Don't forget to mention Mrs. Tiresias. After he gained his weight, she kept calling herself "not tonight, I'm Mrs. Too-Tiresias."

250 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:34:23pm

re: #244 Adrenalyn

an astronaut "divulged" that we've had many contacts over the decades and they've been hidden from an unsuspecting public

now, the old gent is 77 and maybe is confused

then again, The Day The Earth Stood Still is a classic SCI FI movie

first poster to come up with the secret phrase from the movie wins a prize

In English or Klatu?

251 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:34:35pm

re: #243 medaura18586

Oh, just drop it.

252 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:34:36pm

re: #228 Summer

and shall eventually be struck down with Thorish fury for their belief in false gods

Bah. All of your faddish new gods are just johnny-come-latelies. All hail the Python!

253 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:34:42pm

re: #245 sattv4u2

He had a sister that never fully developed. Her name was Flat Tiresias. Another sister becoame a prostitute. Her name was Blown Tiresias!

(someone, please shoot me ! )

*WHACK*

/cleans the clue-by-four off and hands it back to Mandy

Shootin's too good fer you.

254 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:34:46pm

re: #242 nyc redneck

you're a bad messenger. and a desperate one.

Look at the message, instead of shooting/analyzing the messenger.

Anyway, all I wanted was to provide the link. You and anyone else can make of it what you want.

255 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:35:01pm

re: #243 medaura18586

Don't what? Trust me, I do not mean to stir shit, and honestly, if the words used were not so bombastic as to shock even me...


Huh? Weren't you the delightful creature that hocked virtual spit in my face?
Get real.

256 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:35:17pm

re: #250 Nevergiveup

In English or Klatu?

so, I don't have to give you a hint then do I ?

damn, I thought this would take a while

257 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:35:17pm

re: #222 Son of the Black Dog

I didn't know that she had been. I was under the impression that she was taking a break because of the ID threads, which seemed to me fair enough.

258 Charles  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:35:18pm

re: #223 EC Marm

Posted a link to another lgfers blog.

Excuse me - that's not the whole story and you know it. Are you saying I should allow people who post vicious personal slurs about me to have accounts at LGF?

259 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:35:57pm

re: #252 Occasional Reader

Bah. All of your faddish new gods are just johnny-come-latelies. All hail the Python!

Snake worship? Shades of Stan.

260 Summer  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:36:01pm

re: #244 Adrenalyn

Klaatu Verata Nektu.

261 turn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:36:01pm

My old copy of Cosmos ended up in the bathroom recently, reading it again for like the third time. Rather amazing the Ionians were onto the idea of evolution and rejecting a religious explanation for life like way back in 620 BC. I can only imagine if people weren't persecuted for their rejection of religion back then just where society would be today. Later lizards, going to walk the black lab along the American.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

262 wolfie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:36:16pm

re: #118 yochanan


Jews have other religious works so offen take other meanings than the literal meaning found in the first 5 books.

The same may be said of Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox, who rely on a great Tradition of Apostolic, Patristic, and other semi-canonical works to form their understanding. This Tradition includes a long history (going back to the 2nd century at latest) of non-literal interpretations. Indeed, strictly literal interpretations of the 5 bks of Moses were often regarded as spiritually inferior.

It is generally agreed that this tone was (mostly) set by the school at Alexandria, which was heavily influenced by Jewish commentators and scholars.
(What better experts on the Torah could the early Christians have had?!)

263 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:36:17pm
264 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:36:30pm

re: #258 Charles
All she did was post a link to GB. With no comment. I have GB on my blogroll. Should I be concerned?

265 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:36:57pm

re: #256 Adrenalyn

so, I don't have to give you a hint then do I ?

damn, I thought this would take a while

Klaatu barada nikto

266 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:37:19pm

re: #235 sattv4u2

It might help until the list gets checked twice.

267 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:37:41pm

OT two numbers.

1) 143
2) 1997
.
.
.
.
.
.
Think about it.
.
.
.
.
.
.
143 days BHO was in the Seanate before running.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
1997 days John McCain was a guest of the North Vietnamese.

268 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:37:50pm

re: #260 Summer

Klaatu Verata Nektu.

love your avatar (pun intended)

brings a smile to my squinty eyed mug

269 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:37:50pm

re: #252 Occasional Reader

Bah. All of your faddish new gods are just johnny-come-latelies. All hail the Python!


Hope this works.

270 bosforus  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:38:09pm

Tarbosaurus looks like one bad mamma jamma.
And happy pioneer day to all!

271 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:38:10pm

re: #240 buzzsawmonkey

Tiresias gained a lot of weight in later years, and his name was changed to Spare-Tiresias.

Spare-Tiresias sounds like a character from Oedipus Tex.

272 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:38:59pm

re: #269 Golem Akbar

Hope this works.


It works!

273 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:39:02pm

What famous female blogger is celebrating her 15th wedding anniversary today?

274 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:39:10pm
275 mfarmer1  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:39:17pm

re: #238 zombie

Maybe after Assud, the Jew-eating Rabbit gets completely dismembered by the Creepy Saraa, HamasTv can bring in its version of Barney?

276 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:39:20pm

Klaatu Barado Nikto

is the proper spelling (for the pronunciation) (in my HUMBLE opinion)

277 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:39:22pm

re: #264 EC Marm

All she did was post a link to GB. With no comment. I have GB on my blogroll. Should I be concerned?

That is not the whole story and you know it. I just posted the links to her very own comments, which are much more outrageous and incendiary than any personal attack GB himself directed at Charles, BZ's endorsement of which you claim to not be sure of due to her lack of commentary on the link she initially provided..

278 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:39:32pm

Phone call, bbl...

279 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:39:34pm

re: #243 medaura18586

Trust me, I do not mean to stir shit

Well, you've managed it, haven't you?

If you were lacking in malice, it's singularly well-hidden.

280 Racer X  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:39:39pm

I remember this one time, in banned camp, ... ... ...

281 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:40:26pm

re: #280 Racer X

I remember this one time, in banned camp, ... ... ...

bravo!

282 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:40:33pm

I went over and read the comments linked in re: #188 medaura18586. Pretty bitter. Anybody that bitter needs to go play in another sandbox. Not sure how some people can get so worked up over on-line conversations. Silly me.

283 Summer  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:41:04pm

re: #268 Adrenalyn

Thanks. I forgot to take off the link. I don't like posting here with it. =)

Sometimes that happens when I post in a hurry.

284 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:41:35pm

re: #282 Son of the Black Dog

I went over and read the comments linked in . Pretty bitter. Anybody that bitter needs to go play in another sandbox. Not sure how some people can get so worked up over on-line conversations. Silly me.

what the hell are you saying? what do you know? who do you think you are ? I outta come over there and ,, ,,,,,

285 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:41:58pm

re: #280 Racer X

What DID you do with that mouthpiece?

Ah, Allyson Hannigan is an image worth searing into your memory...

OK--I'm back.

286 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:42:01pm

re: #258 Charles

Excuse me - that's not the whole story and you know it. Are you saying I should allow people who post vicious personal slurs about me to have accounts at LGF?

Oh, no.

I'm sorry, I didn't know any of the story. I certainly didn't know that.

287 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:42:03pm
288 WRathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:42:41pm

re: #277 medaura18586

How "personal" was the personal attack? Was it "charles is ugly" or was it "Charles is such a jerk for...." ?

289 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:43:37pm

re: #287 buzzsawmonkey

I'll have to listen to that another time.

BTW, if you can ever find Severn Darden's version of Oedipus Rex.....


Ah, another fellow New Orleanian. Too bad he's gone now.

290 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:43:49pm

re: #279 Dianna

Well, you've managed it, haven't you?

If you were lacking in malice, it's singularly well-hidden.

What malice? She is already banned. If getting her banned is what you assume I cared to accomplish, it would be a moot point.

Why is it so malicious to point out that someone known to many here is calling Charles a whore and a satan? Or is it "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" when it comes to your favorite people?

291 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:44:24pm
292 Racer X  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:45:13pm

re: #285 calcajun

What DID you do with that mouthpiece?

Ah, Allyson Hannigan is an image worth searing into your memory...

OK--I'm back.

Say my name!

293 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:45:21pm

re: #284 sattv4u2

what the hell are you saying? what do you know? who do you think you are ? I outta come over there and ,, ,,,,,

Smile when you say that, Pilgrim.

294 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:45:37pm

re: #280 Racer X

I remember this one time, in banned camp, ... ... ...

Gaiadammit, I came up with that joke months ago. All of your updings are belong to me.

295 beens21  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:45:42pm

way ot,but I registered at the pandora.com site and selected Van Morrison as my music.Outstanding.

296 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:46:16pm

re: #288 WRathofG-d

How "personal" was the personal attack? Was it "charles is ugly" or was it "Charles is such a jerk for...." ?

It was "Charles is an attention whore"... and "Charles is satan" thrown into a more contextual mix. Is that personal enough or am I just in an oversensitive mood today?

Anyway, why don't you read the link to find out?

297 mich-again  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:47:01pm

T-10 seconds to launch.

298 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:47:04pm

re: #293 Son of the Black Dog

Smile when you say that, Pilgrim.

no way ,, YOU try smiling when saying the word WHO. Your mough HAS to make an "O" !

Gggeeeezzzzz

299 Charles  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:47:27pm

re: #264 EC Marm

All she did was post a link to GB. With no comment. I have GB on my blogroll. Should I be concerned?

I think that's up to you.

300 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:47:37pm

re: #288 WRathofG-d

Don't encourage this, please!

This back-biting and gleeful tale-bearing is just wrong.

301 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:47:41pm
302 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:47:49pm

re: #295 beens21

way ot,but I registered at the pandora.com site and selected Van Morrison as my music.Outstanding.

try [Link: www.tropicalglen.com...]

it's free, free of commercials
and you can pick a year to listen to
and sit back and just get to work while it plays

303 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:47:50pm

re: #296 medaura18586

Guys, let's just drop this. It isn't doing anyone any good. Please.

304 WRathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:48:13pm

re: #296 medaura18586

I'm not here to decide what should or should not offend anyone else. I just wanted to know for my own curiosity. If you have the link, I would be more than happy to read it for myself as you suggested.

305 sattv4u2  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:48:23pm

re: #298 sattv4u2

no way ,, YOU try smiling when saying the word WHO. Your mough mouth HAS to make an "O" !

Gggeeeezzzzz


PIMF

306 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:48:58pm

re: #303 calcajun

Guys, let's just drop this. It isn't doing anyone any good. Please.

Do it for the dino-children

307 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:49:17pm

re: #296 medaura18586

you bring bad news w/ such enthusiasm. it's ugly behavior.

308 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:49:51pm

re: #290 medaura18586

Your behavior is called back-biting and gleeful tale-bearing. I call it malicious and unnecessary, and it will make a lot of other people unhappy. It looks to me like you are trying to pick fights.

309 WRathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:49:54pm

re: #300 Dianna

I was just having curiosity about a topic which was being openly discussed on the thread. I am not, was not, and (as far as I know) will not, be taking sides or contributing in any way to any back-biting, etc.

310 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:50:04pm

re: #304 WRathofG-d

I just posted the link, but here it is again: [Link: www.blogger.com...]

311 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:50:40pm

re: #290 medaura18586

Oh, and my opinion of babbazee is irrelevant.

312 Cicero05  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:50:45pm

re: #303 calcajun

Guys, let's just drop this. It isn't doing anyone any good. Please.

Its not helping Michelle's kids.

313 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:50:50pm

re: #305 sattv4u2

PIMF

I thought you meant to type "mough", LOL.

314 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:50:59pm

re: #306 OldLineTexan

Do it for the dino-children

Won't someone please think about the juvenile Tarbosauri?!

315 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:51:00pm

re: #309 WRathofG-d

I was just having curiosity about a topic which was being openly discussed on the thread. I am not, was not, and (as far as I know) will not, be taking sides or contributing in any way to any back-biting, etc.

ok, so you're not Marv Albert

316 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:52:04pm

anyway, i like the fossil specimen.

317 Charles  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:52:51pm

I agree on dropping the matter. On the list of things that matter to me, the opinions of backbiters and vindictive people are very low.

I will say that I have absolutely no obligation to give anyone an LGF account. If someone's going to be a jerk and smear me in personal terms in public and they have an LGF account, I'll block that person's account and never lose a minute's sleep over it.

318 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:52:52pm

re: #295 beens21

way ot,but I registered at the pandora.com site and selected Van Morrison as my music.Outstanding.

I only recently discovered Pandora, when I downloaded the Pandora for iPhone app. Very, very cool (both the original website, and the iPhone app).

319 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:53:12pm

re: #309 WRathofG-d

I didn't know Babba had been banned. Charles, clearly, had a reason.

But what I just witnessed, from comment #188 on, is just nastiness.

I could have gone my entire life without knowing about that. It's just mean, malicious and designed to provoke a quarrel here.

So let's let Medaura stew in her own juices, and not let her get it started.

320 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:53:28pm

re: #306 OldLineTexan

Exactly.

My wife and I have a rule, and it's hard to enforce, but we try not to have a"animated discussions" in front of the kids, but never in public. Maybe a gentle "corrective" admonition, but we wait to get home to unleash our anger.

Trolls get their jollies watching us feed on one another.

321 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:53:38pm

re: #303 calcajun

You're right. I'm sorry.

322 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:53:45pm

re: #315 Adrenalyn

SWISH!

323 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:53:49pm

re: #314 Occasional Reader
I will quit only for the memory of the baby Tarbosaurus. Not for any other reason. Beautiful fossil.

324 JamesWI  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:53:54pm

re: #317 Charles

oops, hit the minus button by mistake there

325 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:54:14pm

We've apparently hit the LGF afternoon flat spot, since I'm caught up with the front of the thread for once. Usually 100 posts back, trying to make headway.

326 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:55:08pm

re: #312 Cicero05

Tut tut! Can't talk about the candidate's family, now.

327 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:55:36pm

re: #317 Charles

I agree on dropping the matter.

Excellent, because otherwise I'd have to get all Mr. Holland's Opus on all your asses.

That's how I roll.

328 WRathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:55:55pm

re: #317 Charles


Did you know that the Discovery Institute itself, "responded" to you and LGF?

(I have yet to post the link, in case you don't want me to)

329 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:56:50pm

re: #320 calcajun

Exactly.

My wife and I have a rule, and it's hard to enforce, but we try not to have a"animated discussions" in front of the kids, but never in public. Maybe a gentle "corrective" admonition, but we wait to get home to unleash our anger.

Trolls get their jollies watching us feed on one another.

I hate to say this, because I think you have writtens oem very sage advice above, but my comment was 100% sarcasm.

I cringe at the various forms of "Do it for the children". Do you know how embarrassing it is for someone my size, age, and sex to cringe? I mean, cringe. It even sounds like you're a wuss. And I hate that.

/

330 Salem  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:56:51pm

re: #142 yochanan

there is a place for religion and a place for science, remember when communism used science as an excuse to out law religion. I my opinion it is better to take the middle road than eather of the extreme roads. no religion is just as bad as no science

Why don't you just believe in YOUR religion (since I don't believe you would seriously endorse any others) and try to keep an open mind about science? The middle road is actually the median, and you'll just look like a nut driving on that.

331 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:56:53pm

re: #328 WRathofG-d

Did you know that the Discovery Institute itself, "responded" to you and LGF?

(I have yet to post the link, in case you don't want me to)

Noooooooooooooooooo!

332 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:57:11pm

re: #323 snowcrash

It is lovely, and I'm so very pleased to see it. There aren't that many complete fossils of larger critters, anywhere.

333 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:57:28pm

re: #327 Occasional Reader

Considering this thread, you'd have to get Jurassic on his ass.

334 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:57:59pm

re: #328 WRathofG-d

Oooh! This will be fun!

335 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:58:06pm

re: #308 Dianna

Your behavior is called back-biting and gleeful tale-bearing. I call it malicious and unnecessary, and it will make a lot of other people unhappy. It looks to me like you are trying to pick fights.

Dianna, I do not post here all that often these days as I am very busy with school. I remember you as a pretty reasonable commenter and I am surprised at your newly acquired attitude:

re: #258 Charles

Excuse me - that's not the whole story and you know it. Are you saying I should allow people who post vicious personal slurs about me to have accounts at LGF?

Dianna:

Oh, no.

I'm sorry, I didn't know any of the story. I certainly didn't know that.

Charles just told you that, and all I was doing was providing a link to further illustrate what Charles just said. So what the hell is your problem?

Is it really the "glee" you attribute to my "behavior" that's the problem here, or rather the disgusting things being said in that thread?

Moonbats accuse Charles of gleeful bigotry reeking of Islamophobia indeed for merely reporting on Islamist Terrorism, instead of focusing on the actual facts he is reporting. You are doing the same to me. And don't assume you can tell what makes me gleeful and what doesn't. Stick to commenting on stated positions instead of trying to infer my motivations.

Back-biting? These comments were not made in a dark room for me to sneakingly leak them out. They are made on a public website, and I am merely putting the spotlight on them. If you don't like it, beats me!

336 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:58:11pm

re: #327 Occasional Reader

Excellent, because otherwise I'd have to get all Mr. Holland's Opus on all your asses.

That's how I roll.

Do that, and I will post Mr. Opus' Holland, the only Bloom County travel documentary ever produced.

337 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:58:22pm

re: #330 Salem

Why don't you just believe in YOUR religion (since I don't believe you would seriously endorse any others) and try to keep an open mind about science? The middle road is actually the median, and you'll just look like a nut driving on that.

And that's where you find the squashed possums, too.

338 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:58:44pm

re: #329 OldLineTexan

Point taken.

Remember: as for sexual intercourse, do it for the children. :)

339 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:58:50pm

re: #316 nyc redneck

It is a thing of beauty, isn't it?

340 beens21  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:59:17pm

re: #302 Adrenalyn

thanks,I'll heck it out.pandora is free,it seek new songs on how you rate the one playing.

341 Fried Spam  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:59:26pm

In a wrenching attempt to ask about the article itself, does anyone know if this particular example of a Tarbosaurus has a furcula (wishbone)?

342 Nevergiveup  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 2:59:26pm

re: #338 calcajun

Point taken.

Remember: as for sexual intercourse, do it for the children. :)

Turkey basters also work?

343 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:00:01pm

re: #342 Nevergiveup

Eww. Thanksgiving will never be the same for me now!

344 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:00:05pm

re: #339 scottishbuzzsaw

It is a thing of beauty, isn't it?

It would make a great coffee table.

345 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:00:17pm

re: #335 medaura18586

Oh, STFU.

346 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:00:37pm

re: #327 Occasional Reader

Excellent, because otherwise I'd have to get all Mr. Holland's Opus on all your asses.

That's how I roll.

re: #336 OldLineTexan

Do that, and I will post Mr. Opus' Holland, the only Bloom County travel documentary ever produced.

WAIT! WAIT! WAIT!
I gotta' pop some popcorn first!

347 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:00:55pm

re: #344 OldLineTexan

Breaks the ice at parties...

348 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:00:59pm

re: #341 Fried Spam

I think I recognize a keel-bone, but I don't see a wishbone in that photo. Though my eyes aren't all that great, and the last time I took physiology was, uh, never. I read a lot of books, though.

349 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:01:09pm

re: #342 Nevergiveup

Turkey basters also work?

If the baster is in the shape of Jody Foster's knuckles, yes.

/It's a Family Guy reference, please quit heaving pavers at me

350 Tigger2005  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:01:40pm

It was Cain's daughter's pet, and died in the Flud.

351 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:01:45pm

re: #339 scottishbuzzsaw

It is a thing of beauty, isn't it?

it almost looks like it was crushed while it was sleeping.

352 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:01:51pm

re: #345 MandyManners

Welll.....that's a bit more blunt that I first put it, but yes, I concur with the sentiment entirely.

353 WrathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:02:01pm

re: #334 Dianna

Going to wait a bit. If Charles says no, then I won't post here....if I don't hear anything in a couple minutes...I'll assume that is an "I dont' care" from Charles, and I'll post it.

354 Charles  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:02:36pm

re: #328 WRathofG-d

Did you know that the Discovery Institute itself, "responded" to you and LGF?

Yes.

355 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:02:42pm

re: #350 Tigger2005

It was Cain's daughter's pet, and died in the Flud.

Elmer Flud has denied any involvement in the death of Spot. He has evidence that he was hunting saber-toothed wabbits at the time of the accident.

356 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:02:44pm

re: #310 medaura18586

I just posted the link, but here it is again: [Link: www.blogger.com...]

Please let it drop.

357 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:02:52pm

re: #318 Occasional Reader

I only recently discovered Pandora, when I downloaded the Pandora for iPhone app. Very, very cool (both the original website, and the iPhone app).

Pandora's awesome. They even have classical music on their program listings.

358 Salem  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:03:31pm

Conclusive proof that yoga kills.

359 Mich-again  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:03:43pm

re: #320 calcajun

My wife and I have a rule, and it's hard to enforce, but we try not to have a"animated discussions" in front of the kids, but never in public. Maybe a gentle "corrective" admonition, but we wait to get home to unleash our anger.

"Animated discussions" and "a gentle corrective admonition" ?

Not here. We skip right to the"unleash our anger" part. /

360 Charles  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:03:45pm

Notice that neither of those articles actually refutes a single fact in my posts. Just ad hominems, bare assertions, and straw men.

361 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:03:54pm

re: #351 nyc redneck

I'm afraid seeing it kicked in the maternal instincts ~ looks 'small' and vulnerable.

362 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:04:12pm

re: #345 MandyManners

Oh, STFU.

LOL,
precisely.

363 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:05:19pm

re: #349 OldLineTexan

Again, I say, Eww.

Here's a classic:

364 Charles  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:05:26pm

In other words, there's nothing worth responding to in either one of those creationist posts.

365 WrathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:05:36pm

re: #354 Charles

Yes that was it. Figured you would know. But if not, thought I would help.

366 zombie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:06:00pm

re: #364 Charles

In other words, there's nothing worth responding to in either one of those creationist posts.

There's nothing worth responding to in ANY creationist post.

367 medaura18586  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:06:12pm

re: #360 Charles

Notice that neither of those articles actually refutes a single fact in my posts. Just ad hominems, bare assertions, and straw men.

That's the least-common-denomination of what idiotarians of any and all fronts resort to when facts and rational arguments don't swing their way.

368 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:06:18pm

re: #328 WRathofG-d

My favorite part....

As it happens, on most issues, including foreign policy, the more leftist party in Turkey is the "secularist" one that is now out of power. The Justice and Development Party (AKP), known as an Islamist party, is the more moderate party.

They are very willing to side with Islamists against secularists. They share a common goal and they aren't ashamed of it. Very spooky.

369 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:06:40pm

re: #359 Mich-again

Okay, she let's me have it with both barrels. Happy

370 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:06:46pm

Somebody tell a joke!

/Moonstruck

371 Salem  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:07:12pm

re: #188 medaura18586

Slightly OT, but not really, if you think about it:

The freshly-banned BabbaZee calling Charles Johnson 'satan' and 'an attention whore' (among other lovely characterizations) in the comment section of Gagdad Bob's latest post:

[Link: www.blogger.com...]

Nice!

Tsk...

372 bosforus  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:07:34pm
owned by a private high tech company

InGen?

373 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:07:36pm

Did everyone go out for drinks and leave me sitting here?

374 zombie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:08:04pm

re: #370 Josephine

Somebody tell a joke!

Q. How many Vietnam vets does it take to change a light bulb?

A. You weren't there, man! You'll never know.

375 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:08:46pm

re: #370 Josephine

here is a joke

376 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:08:56pm

re: #370 Josephine

Somebody tell a joke!

/Moonstruck

Q: How many surrealists does it take to change a light bulb?

A: The fish!

377 WrathofG-d  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:09:13pm

re: #368 Killgore Trout

I'll probably get slammed for this but here goes:

Just because they share a belief in creationism doesn't mean that they share a belief in overt Islamism.

Thus, if they defend an Islamics belief in Creationism, it doesn't mean they "side" with the Islamists.

dang, must run...

378 jorline  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:09:21pm

re: #370 Josephine

Somebody tell a joke!

/Moonstruck

There were three people stuck in an elevator; a Priest, a Rabbi and Charles Darwin...

379 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:09:23pm

re: #374 zombie

Q. How many Vietnam vets does it take to change a light bulb?

A. You weren't there, man! You'll never know.

I'll drink to that!

380 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:09:38pm

re: #357 songbird

Pandora's awesome. They even have classical music on their program listings.

It's my second-favorite iPhone app. My favorite is Shazam. Just for the sheer, jaw-dropping technological coolitivity of it.

381 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:10:04pm

re: #360 Charles

Notice that neither of those articles actually refutes a single fact in my posts. Just ad hominems, bare assertions, and straw men.

Also a few extreme misconceptions if they think Erdogan is "moderate".

382 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:10:17pm

re: #378 jorline

There were three people stuck in an elevator; a Priest, a Rabbi and Charles Darwin...

No way. They were in a bar.

383 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:10:19pm

re: #370 Josephine

Somebody tell a joke!

/Moonstruck


ok, that's my calling....

To: John Hinckley
From: Bill Clinton

Dear John,

Hillary and I wanted to drop you a short note to tell you how pleased we are with the great strides you are making in your recovery. In our country's new spirit of understanding and forgiveness, we want you to know there is a bilateral consensus of compassion and forgiveness abroad throughout the land.

Hillary and I want you to know that no grudge is borne against you for shooting President Reagan. We, above all, are aware of how the mental stress and pain could have driven you to such an act of desperation. Hillary and I are confident that you will soon make a complete recovery and return to your family to join the world again as a healthy and productive young man.
Best wishes,
Bill & Hillary Clinton

PS: Barack Obama is Screwing Jodie Foster

384 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:11:38pm

re: #366 zombie

There's nothing worth responding to in ANY creationist post.

And yet, somehow...

385 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:11:50pm

re: #377 WrathofG-d

I'll probably get slammed for this but here goes:

Just because they share a belief in creationism doesn't mean that they share a belief in overt Islamism.

Thus, if they defend an Islamics belief in Creationism, it doesn't mean they "side" with the Islamists.

dang, must run...

But there is always the chance that they (Islam) will use their share beliefs in creationism as a "back door" into our schools. I think that's the issue.

386 bosforus  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:11:51pm

re: #370 Josephine

Somebody tell a joke!

/Moonstruck

Q. Why do engineers never get constipated?
A. Because they can work anything out with a pencil.

387 Occasional Reader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:11:56pm

re: #366 zombie

There's nothing worth responding to in ANY creationist post.

Not even with ridicule?

388 jorline  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:12:02pm

re: #382 debutaunt

No way. They were in a bar.

you're right...I said Priest, not Baptist Minister...LOL

I always screw-up jokes

389 MrSilverDragon  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:12:04pm

Two guys walk into a bar. You'd think the second one would've at least ducked...

390 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:12:29pm

re: #370 Josephine

Somebody tell a joke!

/Moonstruck

Okay........

391 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:12:58pm

HER DIARY:

Tonight, I thought my husband was acting weird.

We had made plans to meet at a bar to have a drink. I was shopping with my
friends all day long, so I thought he was upset at the fact that I was a
bit late, but he made no comment on it.

Conversation wasn't flowing, so I suggested that we go somewhere quiet so we
could talk. He agreed, but he didn't say much. I asked him what was
wrong; he said, 'Nothing.' I asked him if it was my fault that he was upset. He
said he wasn't upset, that it had nothing to do with me, and not to
worry about it. On the way home, I told him that I loved him. He smiled
slightly, and kept driving. I can't explain his behavior. I don't know why he
didn't say, 'I love you, too.' When we got home, I felt as if I had lost him
completely, as if he wanted nothing to do with me anymore. He just sat
there quietly, and watched TV. He continued to seem distant and absent.

Finally, with silence all around us, I decided to go to bed. About 15 minutes
later, he came to bed. To my surprise, he responded to my caress, and
we made love. But I still felt that he was distracted, and his thoughts were
somewhere else. He fell asleep – I cried. I don't know what to do. I'm
almost sure that his thoughts are with someone else. My life is a disaster...

HIS DIARY:

My Harley wouldn't start today, but at least I got laid.

392 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:13:24pm

re: #366 zombie

There's nothing worth responding to in ANY creationist post.

Not to step on anybody's toes, but when the creationist/ID posts start, I generally find someplace else to be.

393 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:13:28pm

re: #377 WrathofG-d

They openly state that the Islamsist are the"moderate" choice against the radical secularists. Their goal, in Turkey, Europe, and America is to undermine the secular nature of our sosicety. They also praise known antisemites.....

In contrast, we definitely do appreciate knowing Mustafa Akyol, a very different writer whose columns appear in the Turkish Daily News in Istanbul and the Washington Times, the Wall Street Journal and the Weekly Standard in the U.S. He is cited favorably by such publications as Newsweek and U.S. News and World Report.

These are not good people.

394 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:13:33pm

re: #388 jorline

you're right...I said Priest, not Baptist Minister...LOL

I always screw-up jokes

HAHHAHAAHAHA

395 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:13:50pm

re: #375 maddogg

Ack! I can't get it to play properly on my old computer!

396 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:14:06pm

A Sailor is relieving himself in the head when a Marine walks in and steps up to the urinal beside him.

After a few seconds the Sailor finishes, shakes, zips and walks over to the sink to wash his hands. The Marine also finishes, zips-up, and walks to the door.

Just then the Sailor says, "Hey Marine! When I was in boot camp, they taught us to wash our hands when we finished!"

The Marine looks at the Sailor and says, "When I was in boot camp, they told me not to piss on my hands."

397 theparson  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:14:24pm

How come Charles is spending so much time on this?
We should be talking about terrorism!
Noah rode a dinosaur.
What about the math, the math, what about the math, where's the dadgum math!
Why does Charles hate Christians?!
Where's the globular clusters (bonus points)

Did I get them all?

398 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:15:50pm

re: #377 WrathofG-d

I'll probably get slammed for this but here goes:

Just because they share a belief in creationism doesn't mean that they share a belief in overt Islamism.

Thus, if they defend an Islamics belief in Creationism, it doesn't mean they "side" with the Islamists.

dang, must run...

Please read the post at DI more closely if you would. Notice how they try to paint Erdogan as a moderate. Then go do some reading on AKP and NV.

399 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:15:50pm

re: #397 theparson

How come Charles is spending so much time on this?
We should be talking about terrorism!
Noah rode a dinosaur.
What about the math, the math, what about the math, where's the dadgum math!
Why does Charles hate Christians?!
Where's the globular clusters (bonus points)

Did I get them all?

The Parson went into a bar...

400 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:16:13pm

re: #383 Adrenalyn

ok, that's my calling....

To: John Hinckley
From: Bill Clinton

Dear John,

Hillary and I wanted to drop you a short note to tell you how pleased we are with the great strides you are making in your recovery. In our country's new spirit of understanding and forgiveness, we want you to know there is a bilateral consensus of compassion and forgiveness abroad throughout the land.

Hillary and I want you to know that no grudge is borne against you for shooting President Reagan. We, above all, are aware of how the mental stress and pain could have driven you to such an act of desperation. Hillary and I are confident that you will soon make a complete recovery and return to your family to join the world again as a healthy and productive young man.
Best wishes,
Bill & Hillary Clinton

PS: Barack Obama is Screwing Jodie Foster

ROFLMAO!

401 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:16:25pm

re: #397 theparson

How come Charles is spending so much time on this?
We should be talking about terrorism!
Noah rode a dinosaur.
What about the math, the math, what about the math, where's the dadgum math!
Why does Charles hate Christians?!
Where's the globular clusters (bonus points)

Did I get them all?

*sigh*

All my good work gone down the drain.

Listen up!

IT'S TURTLES ALL THE WAY DOWN!

;-P

402 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:16:30pm

Is there any chance at all that we will be able to clone any of these extraordinary beasts should we ever secure preserved DNA? (I'm thinking of the mosquito-in-the-amber scenario).

A resurrected dinosaur would be the ultimate zoological attraction and, yes, I'd happily give a week's pay to watch a revivified raptor glom a goat.

403 BignJames  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:16:36pm

Proof that Men Have Better Friends...

Friendship among Women:
A woman didn't come home one night. The next morning
she told her husband that she had slept over at a
friend's house. The man called his wife's 10 best
friends. None of them knew anything about it.

Friendship among Men:
A man didn't come home one night. The next morning he
told his wife that he had slept over at a friend's
house. The woman called her husband's 10 best friends.
Eight confirmed that he had slept over, and
two said he was still there.

404 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:17:40pm

re: #383 Adrenalyn

Sending that one around...

405 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:17:55pm

re: #393 Killgore Trout

No, they're not. It gets scary.

406 faraway  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:18:11pm

Behead those who insult Charles

407 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:18:40pm
408 maddogg  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:18:51pm

re: #395 Josephine

Too bad. It's hilarious:)

409 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:19:01pm

re: #400 MandyManners

glad to cheer you up a bit today
(bows and sweeps politely)

410 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:19:08pm

Whoops "NV" == National View, they as "Vlaams Blok" as AKP is to Vlaams Belang. They've renamed several times. See the previous article from Jerry Pournelle as well, he has correspondents in Turkey.

411 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:19:26pm

The Difference Between
Men and Women

by Dave Barry

Let's say a guy named Fred is attracted to a woman named Martha. He asks her out to a movie; she accepts; they have a pretty good time. A few nights later he asks her out to dinner, and again they enjoy themselves. They continue to see each other regularly, and after a while neither one of them is seeing anybody else.

And then, one evening when they're driving home, a thought occurs to Martha, and, without really thinking, she says it aloud: "Do you realize that, as of tonight, we've been seeing each other for exactly six months?"

And then, there is silence in the car.

To Martha, it seems like a very loud silence. She thinks to herself: I wonder if it bothers him that I said that. Maybe he's been feeling confined by our relationship; maybe he thinks I'm trying to push him into some kind of obligation that he doesn't want, or isn't sure of.

And Fred is thinking: Gosh. Six months.

image of Arrow thru Heart And Martha is thinking: But, hey, I'm not so sure I want this kind of relationship either. Sometimes I wish I had a little more space, so I'd have time to think about whether I really want us to keep going the way we are, moving steadily towards, I mean, where are we going? Are we just going to keep seeing each other at this level of intimacy? Are we heading toward marriage? Toward children? Toward a lifetime together? Am I ready for that level of commitment? Do I really even know this person?

And Fred is thinking: ...so that means it was...let's see...February when we started going out, which was right after I had the car at the dealer's, which means...lemme check the odometer...Whoa! I am way overdue for an oil change here.

And Martha is thinking: He's upset. I can see it on his face. Maybe I'm reading this completely wrong. Maybe he wants more from our relationship, more intimacy, more commitment; maybe he has sensed - even before I sensed it - that I was feeling some reservations. Yes, I bet that's it. That's why he's so reluctant to say anything about his own feelings. He's afraid of being rejected.

And Fred is thinking: And I'm gonna have them look at the transmission again. I don't care what those morons say, it's still not shifting right. And they better not try to blame it on the cold weather this time. What cold weather? It's 87 degrees out, and this thing is shifting like a garbage truck, and I paid those incompetent thieves $600.

[cont]

412 bosforus  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:19:38pm

re: #375 maddogg

here is a joke

Is that Lance Link?

413 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:19:40pm

[cont]

And Martha is thinking: He's angry. And I don't blame him. I'd be angry, too. I feel so guilty, putting him through this, but I can't help the way I feel. I'm just not sure.

And Fred is thinking: They'll probably say it's only a 90-day warranty...scumballs.

image of Knight on Horse And Martha is thinking: Maybe I'm just too idealistic, waiting for a knight to come riding up on his white horse, when I'm sitting right next to a perfectly good person, a person I enjoy being with, a person I truly do care about, a person who seems to truly care about me. A person who is in pain because of my self-centered, schoolgirl romantic fantasy.

And Fred is thinking: Warranty? They want a warranty? I'll give them a warranty. I'll take their warranty and stick it right up their...

"Fred," Martha says aloud.

"What?" says Fred, startled.

"Please don't torture yourself like this," she says, her eyes beginning to brim with tears. "Maybe I should never have...oh dear, I feel so..."(She breaks down, sobbing.)

"What?" says Fred.

"I'm such a fool," Martha sobs. "I mean, I know there's no knight. I really know that. It's silly. There's no knight, and there's no horse."

"There's no horse?" says Fred.

"You think I'm a fool, don't you?" Martha says.

"No!" says Fred, glad to finally know the correct answer.

"It's just that...it's that I...I need some time," Martha says.

(There is a 15-second pause while Fred, thinking as fast as he can, tries to come up with a safe response. Finally he comes up with one that he thinks might work.)

"Yes," he says. (Martha, deeply moved, touches his hand.)

"Oh, Fred, do you really feel that way?" she says.

"What way?" says Fred.

"That way about time," says Martha.

"Oh," says Fred. "Yes." (Martha turns to face him and gazes deeply into his eyes, causing him to become very nervous about what she might say next, especially if it involves a horse. At last she speaks.)

"Thank you, Fred," she says.

"Thank you," says Fred.

image of Man watching TV and cheering wildly! Then he takes her home, and she lies on her bed, a conflicted, tortured soul, and weeps until dawn, whereas when Fred gets back to his place, he opens a bag of Doritos, turns on the TV, and immediately becomes deeply involved in a rerun of a college basketball game between two South Dakota junior colleges that he has never heard of. A tiny voice in the far recesses of his mind tells him that something major was going on back there in the car, but he is pretty sure there is no way he would ever understand what, and so he figures it's better if he doesn't think about it.

The next day Martha will call her closest friend, or perhaps two of them, and they will talk about this situation for six straight hours. In painstaking detail, they will analyze everything she said and everything he said, going over it time and time again, exploring every word, expression, and gesture for nuances of meaning, considering every possible ramification.

They will continue to discuss this subject, off and on, for weeks, maybe months, never reaching any definite conclusions, but never getting bored with it either.

Meanwhile, Fred, while playing racquetball one day with a mutual friend of his and Martha's, will pause just before serving, frown, and say: "Norm, did Martha ever own a horse?"

And that's the difference between men and women.

414 faraway  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:20:08pm

Headline: Dow drops 283 points after Obama Berlin Speech

415 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:20:16pm

re: #402 NemoParticularis

I agree with everything except bringing back velociraptors. They were predators in a mature ecology, and that just seems like very bad news to me.

I'd love a look at a triceratops, or a bracchiasaur.

416 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:20:29pm

re: #404 scottishbuzzsaw

scottishbuzzsaw,

Are you really Scottish?

417 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:20:58pm

re: #406 faraway

Not funny.

418 neocon hippie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:21:00pm

Was Gagdad Bob in fact banned from LGF?

419 Salem  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:21:09pm

re: #308 Dianna

Your behavior is called back-biting and gleeful tale-bearing. I call it malicious and unnecessary, and it will make a lot of other people unhappy. It looks to me like you are trying to pick fights.

It looks to me like she's being picked on. Malicious, you say? Hmmmm. Interesting.

420 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:21:28pm

re: #408 maddogg

Too bad. It's hilarious:)

I'll have to try tomorrow on my husband's laptop.

421 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:21:28pm

Funny bar-room scenario jokes, huh? Okay, here goes:

A midget gynecologist walks into a lesbian strip club...

422 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:22:21pm

re: #414 faraway

Headline: Dow drops 283 points after Obama Berlin Speech

I think this should be it's own thread
excellent call faraway !

423 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:23:03pm

re: #414 faraway

Headline: Dow drops 283 points after Obama Berlin Speech

Worldwide redistribution of wealth will do that.

424 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:23:10pm

re: #403 BignJames

Proof that Men Have Better Friends...

Friendship among Women:
A woman didn't come home one night. The next morning
she told her husband that she had slept over at a
friend's house. The man called his wife's 10 best
friends. None of them knew anything about it.

Friendship among Men:
A man didn't come home one night. The next morning he
told his wife that he had slept over at a friend's
house. The woman called her husband's 10 best friends.
Eight confirmed that he had slept over, and
two said he was still there.


Eggs-cellent

425 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:24:00pm

re: #416 Josephine

Born and raised in New England, but of Scottish Heritage. The nic is what my husband and son call me. Seems they think, with my red hair and strong opinions, that I have a short temper. They're mistaken of course.

426 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:24:39pm
427 opnion  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:24:47pm

Just curious, there was a mention upthread that Cain's daughter perished in the Great Flood.
Who is reputed to have been her mother?

428 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:24:56pm

re: #425 scottishbuzzsaw

Born and raised in New England, but of Scottish Heritage. The nic is what my husband and son call me. Seems they think, with my red hair and strong opinions, that I have a short temper. They're mistaken of course.

and after they come to, I'm going to tell them so!

429 Ma Sands  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:25:03pm

snowcrash.....you still here.....?

430 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:25:23pm

re: #428 OldLineTexan

Absolutely!

431 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:25:52pm

re: #415 Dianna

I agree with everything except bringing back velociraptors. They were predators in a mature ecology, and that just seems like very bad news to me. I'd love a look at a triceratops, or a bracchiasaur.

Herbivores. Meh. It would be about as much fun as watching cows. Velociraptors are where it's at. The raw, carnivorous fury coupled with the danger that if the beastie got loose it would be a horror show is what makes it all worthwhile.

For similar reasons I am opposed to any form of sex education in the schools...sex is always more fun when it's forbidden, dirty and sinful.

432 faraway  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:25:52pm

re: #427 opnion

Just curious, there was a mention upthread that Cain's daughter perished in the Great Flood.

McCain was on the Ark?

433 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:25:56pm

re: #425 scottishbuzzsaw

LOL!

434 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:26:29pm

Heard a wild-a$$ rumor that the FDIC is about to take over WAMU.

435 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:26:35pm

re: #430 scottishbuzzsaw

Absolutely!

I had a red-headed grandmother.

436 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:26:53pm

re: #432 faraway

McCain was on the Ark?

He was the flight officer.

437 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:27:07pm

re: #435 OldLineTexan

I had a red-headed grandmother.

Ha! I had two!

438 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:27:16pm

re: #431 NemoParticularis

Sex education in schools is a waste. They can learn it on the streetcorners, like I did.

/

439 Adrenalyn  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:28:00pm

re: #434 Golem Akbar

Heard a wild-a$$ rumor that the FDIC is about to take over WAMU.

we moved the Adreno-mom's money out of there last week

(ahem)

440 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:28:10pm

re: #427 opnion

Just curious, there was a mention upthread that Cain's daughter perished in the Great Flood. Who is reputed to have been her mother?

My guess is that it the woman Cain nailed after that awesome tailgate party following the annual brontosaurus hunt in the land of Nod.

441 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:28:14pm

re: #431 NemoParticularis

OK, but I want an overwatch position with a really good sniper, just in case!

442 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:28:32pm

re: #434 Golem Akbar

Heard a wild-a$$ rumor that the FDIC is about to take over WAMU.

If true, that wouldn't surprise me.

443 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:28:48pm

re: #437 Josephine

Ha! I had two!

My other grandmother was of 100% Austrio-Hungarian Empire stock(Moravian/Bohemian).

444 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:29:04pm

Speaking of Noah, I was doing a timeline on the men from Adam to Noah, using the age of their father when they were begotten, and total life lived, etc.

Noah's father and grandfather, I noticed, died the same year. I thought that an interesting coincidence until I put Noah on the timeline, and that year was the year of the flood.

445 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:29:22pm

re: #434 Golem Akbar

They (WaMu) released a statement that they had solid cash reserves just last week. Huh.

446 zombie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:29:24pm

re: #402 NemoParticularis

Is there any chance at all that we will be able to clone any of these extraordinary beasts should we ever secure preserved DNA? (I'm thinking of the mosquito-in-the-amber scenario).

A resurrected dinosaur would be the ultimate zoological attraction and, yes, I'd happily give a week's pay to watch a revivified raptor glom a goat.

The Japanese are trying to clone a mammoth from the frozen ovary cells of a female mammoth found in the Siberian permafront a while back. No success yet, but they're still trying...

As for dinosaurs -- forget about it. Their DNA has long degraded. It may not even be possible with the mammoth, and that DNA is 65 millions years younger.

447 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:29:30pm

re: #429 Ma Sands

hey ma sands. how are you doing?

448 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:30:18pm

re: #444 Silhouette

Speaking of Noah, I was doing a timeline on the men from Adam to Noah, using the age of their father when they were begotten, and total life lived, etc.

I'm curious: how many years did you come up with?

449 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:30:48pm

re: #439 Adrenalyn

we moved the Adreno-mom's money out of there last week

(ahem)


Rumor source says tomorrow is the day.
We'll see...

450 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:30:52pm

re: #446 zombie

I keep hoping for the mammoth, though. How cool would that be?

451 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:31:48pm

re: #446 zombie

The Japanese are trying to clone a mammoth from the frozen ovary cells of a female mammoth found in the Siberian permafront a while back. No success yet, but they're still trying...

As for dinosaurs -- forget about it. Their DNA has long degraded. It may not even be possible with the mammoth, and that DNA is 65 millions years younger.


Golldurnit! I really wanted to go to Jurassic Park....

452 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:31:50pm

re: #446 zombie

As for dinosaurs -- forget about it. Their DNA has long degraded. It may not even be possible with the mammoth, and that DNA is 65 millions years younger.

Has anyone attempted the mosquito-in-the-amber approach? Is this even feasible?

453 opnion  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:31:52pm

re: #432 faraway

McCain was on the Ark?


If he was, he should get in a campaign ad.

454 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:31:58pm

re: #450 Dianna

I keep hoping for the mammoth, though. How cool would that be?

I'd like a wooly mammoth coat.

455 Ma Sands  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:32:11pm

re: #447 nyc redneck

Hey lady! :) Doin' just fine.

456 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:32:19pm

re: #445 Dianna

They (WaMu) released a statement that they had solid cash reserves just last week. Huh.

Sure they do ...
And a share of their stock won't even get you a plain coffee at Starbucks.

457 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:32:35pm

re: #443 OldLineTexan

My other grandmother was of 100% Austrio-Hungarian Empire stock(Moravian/Bohemian).

Interesting. One of my grandmothers was Scottish (born the year after her family came to Canada) and the other was mostly Irish with a bit of Scottish and French.

Anyone who looks at me can easily guess the Irish & Scottish parts of my heritage. That'll change after my hair goes white.

458 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:32:47pm

re: #454 MandyManners

I suspect it would smell rather strong.

459 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:32:53pm

re: #450 Dianna

I keep hoping for the mammoth, though. How cool would that be?

Permafrost cool, that's how cool.

Mammoth steak sounds great, and we can invite taxfreekiller out for a Clovis man hunt.

460 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:33:16pm

re: #456 Son of the Black Dog

I noticed.

It's interesting, though.

461 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:33:17pm

re: #429 Ma Sands
Hey there! I apologize for my vulgar language earlier and hope I didn't offend. What can I do for you?

462 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:33:19pm

re: #456 Son of the Black Dog

Sure they do ...
And a share of their stock won't even get you a plain coffee at Starbucks.


I believe nothing.
Starbucks has plain coffee?

463 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:33:49pm

re: #454 MandyManners

I'd like a wooly mammoth coat.

Not to mention the steaks - huge mammoth steaks. *drooling*

Mammoth...the other, and much older, red meat. It's what's for dinner.

464 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:33:54pm

re: #434 Golem Akbar

Heard a wild-a$$ rumor that the FDIC is about to take over WAMU.

WAMU is taking a beating but their reserves are in decent shape, no reason for FDIC to step in. Share price is down on mortgage concerns but that is expected.

465 faraway  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:34:03pm

I'm part Cherokee, so all of you immigrants get the heck out.:-)

466 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:34:06pm

re: #459 OldLineTexan

Just as long as you fellas do the barbequeing!

467 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:34:27pm

re: #458 Dianna

I suspect it would smell rather strong.

I noticed that here a while ago.

468 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:34:38pm

re: #462 Golem Akbar

Surprisingly, yes.

Just like all their drinks, it tastes burnt.

469 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:34:50pm

re: #465 faraway

I'm part Cherokee, so all of you immigrants get the heck out.:-)


Which part?

470 MandyManners  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:34:58pm

bbl

471 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:35:03pm

re: #465 faraway

I'm part Cherokee, so all of you immigrants get the heck out.:-)

To hear it told, almost everybody is part Cherokee. That was either a numerous or very fecund tribe. ;)

472 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:35:08pm

re: #449 Golem Akbar

Rumor source says tomorrow is the day.
We'll see...

The FDIC likes to do their dirty deeds after the close of business on a Friday afternoon. Gives them the weekend to sort out the mess and usually by Monday a.m. the branches can be open under new management.

473 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:35:32pm

re: #467 debutaunt

I noticed that here a while ago.

Ah?

474 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:35:41pm

re: #465 faraway

I'm part Cherokee, so all of you immigrants get the heck out.:-)

Which part of you will have to leave?

My Irish part is always mad at my English part.

475 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:36:06pm

re: #451 Golem Akbar

Golldurnit! I really wanted to go to Jurassic Park....

It could still happen, but it's far in the future. As they dig through the epigenetic chain of DNA it's possible that they could start to "unwind" evolution as they map the changes. Right now we are at the bare edge of a sea of understanding about DNA, and we don't have a compass yet. Have to hang near the shore...

476 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:36:15pm

re: #471 OldLineTexan

To hear it told, almost everybody is part Cherokee. That was either a numerous or very fecund tribe. ;)

Sarah Vaughan could sing the hell out of that song.

477 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:36:17pm

re: #466 Dianna

Just as long as you fellas do the barbequeing!

I have a big smoker. Room for six briskets, so I figure that's one mammoth chop.

478 faraway  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:36:37pm

re: #474 Josephine

Which part of you will have to leave?

My Irish part is always mad at my English part.

I know how Obama feels now.

479 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:36:56pm

re: #473 Dianna

Ah?

Someone was stirring up something smelly.

480 opnion  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:37:01pm

re: #474 Josephine

Which part of you will have to leave?

My Irish part is always mad at my English part.

"My father he was Orange & my mother she was Green."

481 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:37:42pm

re: #480 opnion

"My father he was Orange & my mother she was Green."

I never knew that Miss Piggy and Kermit ever consummated their love...

482 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:37:47pm

re: #462 Golem Akbar

I believe nothing.
Starbucks has plain coffee?

Ya' gotta be real desperate, and the coffee's usually better at the gas station.

483 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:37:59pm

re: #477 OldLineTexan

I have a big smoker. Room for six briskets, so I figure that's one mammoth chop.

Wow! And I was proud of mine... six!

484 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:38:03pm

re: #479 debutaunt

I'm trying to forget.

485 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:38:08pm

re: #472 Son of the Black Dog

The FDIC likes to do their dirty deeds after the close of business on a Friday afternoon. Gives them the weekend to sort out the mess and usually by Monday a.m. the branches can be open under new management.


I heard this from a "reliable source."
Well, we'll see. Hope I'm wrong...or at least I hope the source is wrong. But I repeated the rumor just to see if any Lizards have their ears to the business news.

486 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:38:35pm

re: #484 Dianna

I'm trying to forget.

The air is much better now.

487 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:38:56pm

re: #481 OldLineTexan

I never knew that Miss Piggy and Kermit ever consummated their love...

The love that dare not speak its name.

/Kermie!

488 opnion  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:38:58pm

re: #481 OldLineTexan

I never knew that Miss Piggy and Kermit ever consummated their love...

Ah, that leads to a really funny joke, but probably inappropriate.

489 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:39:25pm

re: #448 NemoParticularis

I don't recall. I was doing it to see who was living during the lifetime of whom, after someone made the comment that Noah could have known Adam. (They didn't overlap) It's fairly easy to recreate. It took me about 20 minutes on an excel spreadsheet.

490 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:39:40pm

re: #483 Thanos
Dude, it's TEXAS!

491 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:39:41pm

re: #465 faraway

I'm part Cherokee, so all of you immigrants get the heck out.:-)

Can't fool me. Your ancestors snuck across the Alaskan border.

492 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:39:57pm

re: #483 Thanos

Wow! And I was proud of mine... six!

It was at work, and they changed the security rules, so no more BBQ cookouts on the truck pad behind the shop. It's staying with me in part because I live close by and have a big back yard.

The record meat load was two prime ribs, six chickens cut into halves, and a tray of sausages.

493 zombie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:40:02pm

re: #452 NemoParticularis

Has anyone attempted the mosquito-in-the-amber approach? Is this even feasible?

Finding mosquitoes in amber is rare.

Finding ancient mosquitoes in ancient amber is very rare.

Finding Jurassic-era mosquitoes in Jurassic-era amber is unbelievably rare.

Finding Jurassic-era mosquitoes preserved in amber still engorged with another animal's blood hasn't happened yet (outside of fiction).

Being able to extract DNA from that blood is nigh-on impossible, since DNA breaks down and degrades over time, even encased in amber.

And finally, even if they got the DNA out of the blood, it's an extremely remote chance they're ever be able to insert it into a Komodo Dragon egg cell (for example) and get a viable fetus.

And even if they got a fetus and it hatched, it likely would die because there'd be no momma dinosaur to feed it.

494 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:40:05pm

re: #482 Son of the Black Dog

Ya' gotta be real desperate, and the coffee's usually better at the gas station.


I love Starbucks. And Peet's. And most of the others. Okay, I am desperate...

495 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:40:31pm

re: #486 debutaunt

Let's leave it be. I have already been accused of "picking" on the person you're referring to.

496 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:40:40pm

re: #489 Silhouette

I don't recall. I was doing it to see who was living during the lifetime of whom, after someone made the comment that Noah could have known Adam. (They didn't overlap) It's fairly easy to recreate. It took me about 20 minutes on an excel spreadsheet.

Interesting. Thank you.

497 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:41:01pm

re: #490 snowcrash

Dude, it's TEXAS!

Everything's BIG, and we're HUGE liars!

/but the smoker will fit six briskets

498 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:41:40pm

re: #494 Golem Akbar

I love Starbucks. And Peet's. And most of the others. Okay, I am desperate...

Mmm...Peet's!

499 Dianna  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:42:06pm

I must go home.

Take care!

500 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:42:07pm

re: #493 zombie

Finding mosquitoes in amber is rare.
Finding ancient mosquitoes in ancient amber is very rare.
Finding Jurassic-era mosquitoes in Jurassic-era amber is unbelievably rare.
Finding Jurassic-era mosquitoes preserved in amber still engorged with another animal's blood hasn't happened yet (outside of fiction).
Being able to extract DNA from that blood is nigh-on impossible, since DNA breaks down and degrades over time, even encased in amber.
And finally, even if they got the DNA out of the blood, it's an extremely remote chance they're ever be able to insert it into a Komodo Dragon egg cell (for example) and get a viable fetus.
And even if they got a fetus and it hatched, it likely would die because there'd be no momma dinosaur to feed it.

LOL. A simple "no" would have sufficed.

501 debutaunt  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:42:09pm

re: #495 Dianna

Let's leave it be. I have already been accused of "picking" on the person you're referring to.

The weather is glorious!

502 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:42:24pm

re: #497 OldLineTexan

Everything's BIG, and we're HUGE liars!

/but the smoker will fit six briskets

Now I"ve got a bad case of smoker envy....

503 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:42:36pm

re: #471 OldLineTexan

To hear it told, almost everybody is part Cherokee. That was either a numerous or very fecund tribe. ;)

From what I've heard, it is that the Cherokee women were particularly beautiful. That explains the attraction of the Europeans to the Cherokee, but doesn't explain what the Cherokee women saw in the Euro men.

505 Ma Sands  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:44:04pm

re: #461 snowcrash

snowcrash......I saw your question to mama winger the other day, about your pet.......she's due back from her cabin up in the U.P., after this coming weekend......just thought you might not have heard she was gone for a bit.....

506 scottishbuzzsaw  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:44:42pm

re: #457 Josephine

*cough* I'm already at the "only her hairdresser knows for sure" stage. *cough*

507 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:45:52pm

re: #110 calcajun

Argh. Come over here and you'll find how neatly my hands fit round your throat.

That is really bad.

508 Fried Spam  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:45:53pm

re: #503 Silhouette

From what I've heard, it is that the Cherokee women were particularly beautiful. That explains the attraction of the Europeans to the Cherokee, but doesn't explain what the Cherokee women saw in the Euro men.

Possibly the muzzle of a rifle?

509 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:46:33pm

re: #441 Dianna

"I'll be seeing you, in all the old familiar places.."

510 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:46:51pm

re: #498 Dianna

Mmm...Peet's!


And, from San Francisco, Blue Bottle.

511 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:46:55pm

re: #434 Golem Akbar

I heard that rumor a few days ago.
Their quarterly losses were 3.3 billion. Wachovia was 9 billion.

You know I was just heading to WAMU. Maybe I won't deposit as much I was planning on just in case something happens. I don't have enough to have to really worry but dang I don't like the idea of my business account not being completely fluid for a day or two. I wouldn't want to see a run on the bank either.

512 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:47:31pm

re: #499 Dianna

see you later Dianna.

513 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:48:23pm

re: #511 Pvt Bin Jammin

I heard that rumor a few days ago.
Their quarterly losses were 3.3 billion. Wachovia was 9 billion.

You know I was just heading to WAMU. Maybe I won't deposit as much I was planning on just in case something happens. I don't have enough to have to really worry but dang I don't like the idea of my business account not being completely fluid for a day or two. I wouldn't want to see a run on the bank either.

It's rumors that will start a run. A run if substantial will bring in the FDIC.
WAMU hurting, but solvent. A run could tip the balance.

514 Golem Akbar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:48:32pm

re: #511 Pvt Bin Jammin

I heard that rumor a few days ago.
Their quarterly losses were 3.3 billion. Wachovia was 9 billion.

You know I was just heading to WAMU. Maybe I won't deposit as much I was planning on just in case something happens. I don't have enough to have to really worry but dang I don't like the idea of my business account not being completely fluid for a day or two. I wouldn't want to see a run on the bank either.

By Monday the rumor either is true or it isn't.

515 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:48:33pm

re: #504 Thanos

Test your energy IQ at the American Petroleum Institute

Aced it. All you have to do is ask yourself what the typical liberal would answer and then assume the opposite is true. Works like a charm.

516 snowcrash  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:49:07pm

re: #505 Ma Sands
I did not know that. A couple of other posters helped me out with my dog concerns. I have always appreciated mama wingers veterinary expertise.

517 opnion  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:49:56pm

All that talk about Mammoth steaks & chops.
I think that my fellow griller's will agree with me, Corn feed , farm mammoth grills up really nice & is so tender.
But I'm tellin ya, free range mammoth is really tough. I don't care what you do with it, you just can't tenderize it

518 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:50:30pm

re: #507 Salamantis

OOOOOOK. That was, odd. Actually, I was recalling when the Muppets from the first season of SNL.

519 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:50:32pm

re: #515 NemoParticularis

Aced it. All you have to do is ask yourself what the typical liberal would answer and then assume the opposite is true. Works like a charm.

That is kinda how I passed "Marriage and the Individual" only I put what a moonbat would believe: men are evil, love doesn't really exist, etc.

520 Ma Sands  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:50:36pm

re: #516 snowcrash

Oh, I am so relieved! I have not rested easy since your request.....thanks for telling me! :)

521 Racer X  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:50:57pm

re: #504 Thanos

Cool - a quiz.


Dammit. Missed 2.

522 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:51:00pm

re: #66 Shiplord Kirel

My grandson thought the Creation Museum's saddled triceratops was extremely cool. I suspect that he is just possibly hinting that I should look into getting one for him.
I told him that the saddled dino was made by people who think it was real. He said nobody could be that dumb. He is 7 years old.

Those people are just born too slow:

523 meeshlr  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:51:06pm

re: #66 Shiplord Kirel

My grandson thought the Creation Museum's saddled triceratops was extremely cool. I suspect that he is just possibly hinting that I should look into getting one for him.
I told him that the saddled dino was made by people who think it was real. He said nobody could be that dumb. He is 7 years old.

Smart kid.

524 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:51:12pm
525 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:51:39pm

re: #502 Thanos

Yummmm. How long and how hot do you have to cook it to get it to fall apart/pull. I've been a little hit and miss with mine this year.

526 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:52:12pm

Phone call over.
So. Getting back to the whole issue. Kilgore had links to a poll that showed different countries results to the creationist/evolution question. Japan was at the top of the list as being most pro-evolution while the United States was down near the bottom, just above the predominately islamic country of Turkey. His point, I gather, was that Japan was most pro-science. Thinking about it the past few days I thought what event put Japan into such a frame of mind. During WWII they elevated, in their minds, their Emporer* to divine status. Obviously, the repercussions of losing a war and having two of their major cities reduced to smoking rubble might just have some effect on their current mindset about deities and divine intervention and created a backlash.
Yet the nation of Japan has not landed on the moon and returned. It has not put SUV's on Mars. Japan not discovered how to make fusion work. The people live in homes that average 500 sq. feet in size. I have 500 feet of closet space in my house.
Somehow, with all of the different mindsets of the people of this country, whether atheist, Christian, Jew, Fundamentalist, whatever, we are still the leader in the world.
That doesn't mean I think that I.D. should be taught in schools if it lacks a scientific foundation. Just that we should recognize that while we may disagree in varying amounts, lets do it amicably. It's not as if we are some 3rd world country fighting for the crumbs that land on the floor.

*Islamist have a similar attitude, in my opinion, that mirrors that of the people of Japan during WWII.

527 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:53:26pm

re: #513 jcm
I'll stick with them for awhile. It would be a darn shame if there was a run. Same thing happened to IndyMac. I heard Biden or one of the democrats leaked the info. Anything to make the republicans look bad, I guess. They'll remember that there were bank runs during Bush's presidency.

528 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:53:38pm

re: #492 OldLineTexan

You use tuning plates in the barrel? Been thinking of rigging my old SNP Pro with them.

529 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:53:46pm
530 ebed_melech  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:53:47pm

Problems with another missing link Ventastaga probably a mosaic, but overhasty interpretation lead to believing things not seen as yet!

531 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:54:06pm

re: #517 opnion

free range mammoth is really tough. I don't care what you do with it, you just can't tenderize it

An overnite marinade in a mixture of white wine, lemon juice, fresh gminced garlic, pepper and fresh chopped parsley does wonders. Nevertheless, I would still braise it for a few hours (think pot roast). Long, slow cooking always does the trick. The gravy should be a light reduction of mammoth broth and burgundy with fresh baby button mushrooms. Serve with steamed broccoli and roasted new potatoes.

532 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:54:06pm

re: #514 Golem Akbar
That's what I figure.

533 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:54:46pm

re: #529 buzzsawmonkey

Plus the chance of foreign travel and sleeping on something other than fur-covered dirt.

534 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:55:10pm
535 Basho  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:55:44pm

re: #526 EC Marm

Phone call over.

Yet the nation of Japan has not landed on the moon and returned. It has not put SUV's on Mars. Japan not discovered how to make fusion work. The people live in homes that average 500 sq. feet in size. I have 500 feet of closet space in my house.
Somehow, with all of the different mindsets of the people of this country, whether atheist, Christian, Jew, Fundamentalist, whatever, we are still the leader in the world.

Japan has done a lot. Most recently they were the ones to figure out how to turn an adult skin cell into an embryonic one. That could be the medical discovery of the century.

536 opnion  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:55:44pm

re: #531 NemoParticularis

An overnite marinade in a mixture of white wine, lemon juice, fresh gminced garlic, pepper and fresh chopped parsley does wonders. Nevertheless, I would still braise it for a few hours (think pot roast). Long, slow cooking always does the trick. The gravy should be a light reduction of mammoth broth and burgundy with fresh baby button mushrooms. Serve with steamed broccoli and roasted new potatoes.

Thank you. I will give it a try. Nothing else has worked.

537 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:55:55pm

re: #529 buzzsawmonkey

Beads. Lots of beads and mirrors. Plus the exoticism of hairy faces and pale skin.

I was under the impession that aboriginal Americans had no facial hair. Am I mistaken?

538 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:56:08pm

re: #148 WrathofG-d

as to the stoning part....are you a "rising of the dead" believer? (ie: christian)...in that case.....burying wont' be enough.

Blasphemous image alert (you did this to me!):

Jesus exits the tomb, extends clawed fingers, bares yellow fangs, and shambles towards town screaming BRRAAAAAIINZZZ!

539 Basho  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:56:40pm
Japan has done a lot. Most recently they were the ones to figure out how to turn an adult skin cell into an embryonic one. That could be the medical discovery of the century.

Gah... I meant an adult skin cell into a stem cell.

540 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:56:47pm
541 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:57:11pm

re: #527 Pvt Bin Jammin

I'll stick with them for awhile. It would be a darn shame if there was a run. Same thing happened to IndyMac. I heard Biden or one of the democrats leaked the info. Anything to make the republicans look bad, I guess. They'll remember that there were bank runs during Bush's presidency.

I'm at WAMU, my mortgage is there, about 50% at WAMU the rest in a Credit Union. Never did believe in putting everything in one place.

542 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:57:11pm

re: #148 WrathofG-d

as to the stoning part....are you a "rising of the dead" believer? (ie: christian)...in that case.....burying wont' be enough.

543 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:57:37pm

re: #538 Salamantis

Blasphemous image alert (you did this to me!):

Jesus exits the tomb, extends clawed fingers, bares yellow fangs, and shambles towards town screaming BRRAAAAAIINZZZ!

Ugh.

544 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:57:41pm
545 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:57:42pm

re: #540 buzzsawmonkey

Given the hairiness and personal hygiene standards of the early European explorers, I would say that the Cherokee women who went with them would still be sleeping on fur-covered dirt.

rofl

546 Salem  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:58:04pm

re: #538 Salamantis

Blasphemous image alert (you did this to me!):

Jesus exits the tomb, extends clawed fingers, bares yellow fangs, and shambles towards town screaming BRRAAAAAIINZZZ!

Be a good little boy, now, or JESUS WILL GET YOU!

547 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:58:10pm

re: #545 nyc redneck

Rolling on fur laughing?

548 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:58:46pm

re: #544 buzzsawmonkey

I was referring to European hairness, as being exotic to the Native American women.

Just realized this. D'oh.

549 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:58:57pm

re: #544 buzzsawmonkey

Especially those hairy-backed ones

550 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:58:59pm

re: #547 calcajun

Rolling on fur laughing?

hahahahahahahahahaha.

551 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:59:29pm
552 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 3:59:40pm

re: #161 maddogg

I would love to see Jurassic park come to reality. Talk about an exciting hunting season. Hell, I'd settle for a few Columbian Mammoths and saber tooth cats.

I wanna bag a Sabretooth! And a Dire Wolf! And a Cave Bear!

553 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:00:26pm
554 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:00:50pm

re: #162 Golem Akbar

I'm going to jump in on this debate and then quickly disappear. You are right. I've read plenty of Ortho spokesmen (and women) saying that there really is no contradiction between Judaism and science, or the bible (Torah) and science. The problem is when one side tries to nullify the other's arguments with their own texts. Can't be done and needn't be done.

We (people, humans, you know, us) don't know a lot about how the world was made and of what is it composed. Doctors can't even cure the common cold. We don't know much about the spiritual world, either. It's mostly mystery. But the bible teaches moral behavior while science illuminates physical matter. Can't we all just get along? [who said that?]

I really like looking at dinosaurs. I hope and pray that someday we can cure cancer. Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to a nice scotch neat, tomorrow night pre-shabbat.

We know that commom colds are caused by rhinoviruses, and we're workin' on 'em...

555 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:00:53pm

Who died and made him president?

R e-entry after a longish vacation is always a disorienting time. You turn the key and have to push the door hard to get past the drifts of unopened mail. Most of the mail is bills, of course, and that brings on its own sense of delirium.

But for me what’s made the past few days especially bizarre is to find that, after two weeks of avoiding the news cycle, I return to discover that Barack Obama has become my president, prophet and anointed philosopher king — all without an election!

While dumping out heaps of sandy vacation laundry, I learn from NPR that “Barack Obama has left Jordan and is on his way to Israel,” as if his movements are already of such national import that we all need to know what he said before he got on the plane, at what time he’ll be airborne, and what he’s expected to say when he lands.

NPR believes I wish to know these things. I don’t, really. What I’d like to know is why nobody makes a fuss when John McCain goes overseas. We are a politically divided country, after all; half of us, give or take, vote Republican, and you’d think that broadcasters might remember those of us in the Other America.

/Lord Obama's ego is getting overstretched, the backlash is starting to form

556 Josephine  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:01:05pm

The Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto has a big Darwin exhibit. I'm going to have to visit the museum; I haven't been there in two or three years.

Darwin: The Evolution Revolution

"Discover the extraordinary story of Charles Darwin in Darwin: The Evolution Revolution, the most comprehensive exhibition ever mounted on the man whose revolutionary theory changed the world. This extraordinary exhibition traces Darwin’s life from his early years of curious observation and scientific study to his uninspired days at boarding school. Relive his five-year voyage aboard the HMS Beagle that brought him to the Galapagos Islands, and discover some of the unique animals he encountered, including African spur-thighed tortoises, an iguana and live frogs.

"Walk through his historic study where he developed his ground-breaking Theory of Evolution. Intimate letters, photographs and personal artifacts give insight into aspects of Darwin’s life that are rarely seen. Discover why it took so long for Darwin to publish his findings, and how his daughter’s untimely death in 1851 may have contributed to his decision to eventually publish On The Origin of Species..."

557 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:01:11pm

re: #543 NemoParticularis

Ug.

ly

558 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:01:12pm

re: #527 Pvt Bin Jammin

I'll stick with them for awhile. It would be a darn shame if there was a run. Same thing happened to IndyMac. I heard Biden or one of the democrats leaked the info. Anything to make the republicans look bad, I guess. They'll remember that there were bank runs during Bush's presidency.

Chucky Schumer (D) did that to IndyMac.

I've heard various rumors about WaMu, but haven't seen anything solid about it, and no indications of a big run on them yet. But they do seem to be pumping out a lot of reassuring press releases, and that never reassures me.

559 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:01:34pm

re: #541 jcm
I have a credit union but it's not local. Guess I should diversify a little more.

Off to our bank....I'll let you know if I see any "government suits".LOL

560 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:02:25pm

re: #538 Salamantis

Blasphemous image alert (you did this to me!):

Jesus exits the tomb, extends clawed fingers, bares yellow fangs, and shambles towards town screaming BRRAAAAAIINZZZ!

That was way over the top offensive, for sure, but I'm not going to ululate, threaten you, burn down your house or issue death threats or fatwas at you.

561 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:03:42pm

re: #551 buzzsawmonkey

So, we're waxing pun-like again are we?

562 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:04:49pm

re: #560 songbird

That was way over the top offensive, for sure, but I'm not going to ululate, threaten you, burn down your house or issue death threats or fatwas at you.

Round here a good solid

*WHACK* is usually sufficient.


Later Lizards.....
Off to a class tonight, got to keep the CE credits up to date to keep the foster license.

563 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:04:53pm

re: #537 NemoParticularis

I was under the impession that aboriginal Americans had no facial hair. Am I mistaken?

The Euro men had the fuzzy faces Nemo.

564 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:04:53pm

re: #539 Basho

Gah... I meant an adult skin cell into a stem cell.


Remember the issue of embryonic stem cell research vs. adult stem cells? A huge moral issue there. People lined up on both sides of the issue pointing fingers. Yet, somehow scientists in this country are able to achieve the results that they wanted with adult stem cells. Maybe Zombie has a different opinion, it's way outside of my field.

565 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:05:11pm

re: #541 jcm

I'm at WAMU, my mortgage is there, about 50% at WAMU the rest in a Credit Union. Never did believe in putting everything in one place.

The people who line up in front of these banks to withdraw their money are idiots.

/no one's ever lost a penny on an FDIC insured account yet

566 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:05:32pm

re: #558 CyanSnowHawk

You're right, it was Shumer.

I saw the press releases, too. They didn't reassure me at all.

Speaking of IndyMac. They do business with my company. Wonder if I will collect my last invoice. LOL

567 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:05:59pm

re: #538 Salamantis

Blasphemous image alert (you did this to me!):

Jesus exits the tomb, extends clawed fingers, bares yellow fangs, and shambles towards town screaming BRRAAAAAIINZZZ!

I love the part where he sends the scroll that says, "Send more Centurians."

568 jcm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:07:16pm

re: #565 Killian Bundy

The people who line up in front of these banks to withdraw their money are idiots.

/no one's ever lost a penny on an FDIC insured account yet

One more and I have to go....

Worst case. Lose access to some of my money for a few days. My mortgage gets sold off to someone else. In the great scheme of things a nuisance. And rates a *yawn*.

Later.

569 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:07:55pm

re: #567 CyanSnowHawk

Having the Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz say that would be pretty funny, too

570 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:08:01pm

re: #565 Killian Bundy

The people who line up in front of these banks to withdraw their money are idiots.

/no one's ever lost a penny on an FDIC insured account yet


As long as they had exactly 100,000 dollars or less in the account. Right?

571 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:09:01pm

re: #570 EC Marm

As long as they had exactly 100,000 dollars or less in the account. Right?

/right

572 stevieray  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:10:32pm
573 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:11:08pm
574 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:11:30pm

Who is Salamantis and why is it going around dinging? Come out and say something.

575 Pvt Bin Jammin  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:11:43pm

re: #565 Killian Bundy
You should have seen the lines at IndyMac. Unbelievable. People went there at 4:00 AM like they were trying to get concert tickets or something.

576 Ma Sands  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:12:27pm

re: #574 EC Marm

Be careful what you wish for, EC. :)

577 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:14:03pm

re: #576 Ma Sands

Be careful what you wish for, EC. :)


Hi Ma. How's your son doing with his school? Any better or still sick?

578 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:14:07pm

re: #573 buzzsawmonkey

Only because it hirsutes me.

579 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:14:15pm

re: #569 calcajun

Having the Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz say that would be pretty funny, too

Right, but you don't risk being tossed in the eternal fire of perdition by riffing on a joke about the Scarecrow.

580 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:15:51pm

re: #579 CyanSnowHawk

Right, but you don't risk being tossed in the eternal fire of perdition by riffing on a joke about the Scarecrow.

But what would Mrs King have to say?

581 Ma Sands  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:16:04pm

re: #577 EC Marm

It cannot be good, EC.....he does not speak with me about it anymore......nor to his twin brother, which is even more unheard of..... ):

582 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:16:12pm

re: #578 calcajun

Only because it hirsutes me.

hirsuite?
Self-flagellation is unbecoming behavior

583 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:17:06pm
584 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:17:58pm

Hmmmm.

I wonder if I should sign up for two days at Camp Obama.

Might make an interesting story.

It'll probably be like going undercover at a cult retreat.

585 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:18:32pm

re: #582 pre-Boomer Marine brat

OK, perhaps too esoteric. It means hairy--not hair suit.

Gotta get back to work now.

586 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:18:39pm

re: #583 buzzsawmonkey

I thought the Discovery Institute said self-flagellants were irreducibly complex?

(Where's that danged chainsaw ...)

I'LL show you reducibilty!

587 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:18:52pm

re: #580 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But what would Mrs King have to say?

OMG, I had such a crush on her. Forget Farrah, she was just another blonde, Kate was the one I liked, followed closely by Jaclyn.

588 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:19:14pm

re: #578 calcajun

Only because it hirsutes me.


That's one of my mane complaints around here, not enough puns.

589 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:19:28pm

re: #585 calcajun

OK, perhaps too esoteric. It means hairy--not hair suit.

Gotta get back to work now.

Oh, I knew what it meant. You think that matters to a punster?

590 VegasRick  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:19:30pm

re: #574 EC Marm

Who is Salamantis and why is it going around dinging? Come out and say something.

Who did it ding?

591 Bobblehead  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:19:46pm

Baby dinosaurs..so much more fun to read about than Obama.

592 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:19:50pm

re: #584 Ringo the Gringo

I wonder if I should sign up for two days at Camp Obama.

And they accuse the right of setting up re-education camps.

593 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:20:12pm

re: #261 turn

My old copy of Cosmos ended up in the bathroom recently, reading it again for like the third time. Rather amazing the Ionians were onto the idea of evolution and rejecting a religious explanation for life like way back in 620 BC. I can only imagine if people weren't persecuted for their rejection of religion back then just where society would be today. Later lizards, going to walk the black lab along the American.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The Ionian Thales is known as the first Greek philosopher.

594 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:20:22pm

re: #588 EC Marm

That's one of my mane complaints around here, not enough puns.

That one's got a beard.

595 wolfie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:20:46pm

re: #584 Ringo the Gringo

Hmmmm.

I wonder if I should sign up for two days at Camp Obama.

OMG.
Unbelievable.

596 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:21:33pm

re: #592 Silhouette

And they accuse the right of setting up re-education camps.

If he wins the election some of us might find ourselves being sent to Camp Obama.

597 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:22:02pm

re: #589 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Sigh. Silly me. I'm too literal sometimes.

598 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:22:10pm

re: #584 Ringo the Gringo

Hmmmm.

I wonder if I should sign up for two days at Camp Obama.

Might make an interesting story.

It'll probably be like going undercover at a cult retreat.

Looks like that's where the good koolaid is served! You have to commit to campaigning!

599 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:22:35pm

re: #574 EC Marm

Who is Salamantis and why is it going around dinging? Come out and say something.

/a militant atheist that only comments on ID/creation threads

600 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:22:48pm

re: #595 wolfie

OMG.
Unbelievable.

I think I may sign up and go....just so long as I can bring my camera.

601 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:22:53pm

re: #596 Ringo the Gringo

I dare say there will be American boat people one day. Just where we'll flee to is anyone's guess.

602 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:23:05pm

re: #599 Killian Bundy

/a militant atheist that only comments on ID/creation threads

Hence the blasphemy.

603 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:23:23pm

re: #597 calcajun

Sigh. Silly me. I'm too literal sometimes.

*grin*
Forgive me. My fault anyway.

604 Salem  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:26:45pm

re: #602 songbird

Hence the blasphemy.

That word has lost much of it's impact since they stopped burning people at the stake for it.

605 wolfie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:27:07pm

re: #600 Ringo the Gringo

I think I may sign up and go....just so long as I can bring my camera.

That would be interesting. V-e-r-y interesting.
Especially if you could take your camera.

606 vagabond trader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:27:26pm

love dinos. love em.

607 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:28:38pm

re: #590 VegasRick

Who did it ding?


A person who likes to fling excrement.

608 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:28:54pm

Obama ‘disappointed’ by McCain’s ‘lose the war’ remark

Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama says he is “disappointed” that rival Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.) would say the Illinois senator would rather “lose the war” than the presidential campaign.

His majesty seems to be "disappointed" a lot, it's like his favorite word after change and hope.

/the truth hurts

609 vagabond trader  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:30:46pm

re: #608 Killian Bundy

He's going to have an ego shattering disappointment in November.

610 Tigger2005  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:31:54pm

re: #355 OldLineTexan

Elmer Flud has denied any involvement in the death of Spot. He has evidence that he was hunting saber-toothed wabbits at the time of the accident.

What a maroon! If I was talking about Elmer, I would have spelled his name correctly... F-L-U-D-D.

611 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:33:06pm

re: #328 WRathofG-d

Did you know that the Discovery Institute itself, "responded" to you and LGF?

(I have yet to post the link, in case you don't want me to)

Chareles already posted that link, and another one as well, in a previous EVO thread.

612 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:33:28pm

Unknown insects found in 110-million-year-old amber in Spain

Palaeontologist Enrique Penalver said the amber discovered in the El Soplao cave in the northern province of Cantabria was in "exceptional" condition.

"The conservation is incredible. You can study the details," he told a news conference in Santander according to the Europea Press agency.

Several types of arachnids, as well spider webs and plant remains, were found fossilised in the amber discovered at the site, added Penalver, a researcher with the science ministry's Geology and Mine Institute.

It is the most important amber find to date in Spain and possibly in all of Europe, he added. There are few other amber finds from that era in the world, he said.

613 Killian Bundy  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:33:56pm

Obama is no Santa at home

Sen. Barack Obama (D-Ill.) tells PEOPLE magazine in the issue out Friday that he and his wife, Michelle, do not give Christmas or birthday presents to their two young daughters.

Obama tells the magazine’s Sandra Sobieraj Westfall in a seven-page cover story that he and his wife follow the unusual practice because they “want to teach some limits.”

/how unAmerican is that?

614 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:34:34pm

re: #612 Killgore Trout

Unknown insects found in 110-million-year-old amber in Spain

Thats what? 1000 years old in Creationist years?

615 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:35:37pm

re: #517 opnion

All that talk about Mammoth steaks & chops.
I think that my fellow griller's will agree with me, Corn feed , farm mammoth grills up really nice & is so tender.
But I'm tellin ya, free range mammoth is really tough. I don't care what you do with it, you just can't tenderize it

Apple cider vinegar overnight, followed by a few hours in whole milk.

Season and cook patiently.

mmmmmmm

616 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:36:04pm

re: #613 Killian Bundy

What about at Kwanza time?

617 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:36:50pm

re: #613 Killian Bundy

Obama is no Santa at home


/how unAmerican is that?

No Christmas presents for his little girls?

What a rat!

618 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:36:53pm

re: #613 Killian Bundy

Obama is no Santa at home

/how unAmerican is that?

Barack "Ebenezer" Obama.

619 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:36:54pm

re: #584 Ringo the Gringo

Hmmmm.

I wonder if I should sign up for two days at Camp Obama.

Might make an interesting story.

It'll probably be like going undercover at a cult retreat.

We'll find you wearing pink pajamas and sleeping on a cot in a 12-man Army surplus tent somewhere in Oregon.

/don't do it

620 Tigger2005  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:37:08pm

re: #601 calcajun

I dare say there will be American boat people one day. Just where we'll flee to is anyone's guess.

In spaceships...to the stars...where after centuries of travel at near light-speeds whilst in suspended animation, we'll find an uninhabited Earth-like world, and there found a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

621 Tigger2005  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:38:59pm

re: #620 Tigger2005

In spaceships...to the stars...where after centuries of travel at near light-speeds whilst in suspended animation, we'll find an uninhabited Earth-like world, and there found a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Unfortunately, we'll then discover the world is also inhabited by talking apes.

622 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:38:59pm

re: #610 Tigger2005

What a maroon! If I was talking about Elmer, I would have spelled his name correctly... F-L-U-D-D.

You know of course that this means war.

623 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:39:00pm

re: #620 Tigger2005

In spaceships...to the stars...where after centuries of travel at near light-speeds whilst in suspended animation, we'll find an uninhabited Earth-like world, and there found a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Read a sci-fi story a long time ago, forget by whom but one of the quotes that stuck with me was "The meek shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us are heading to the stars."

624 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:39:15pm

re: #620 Tigger2005

or, we'll met Cornelius and Dr. Zaius.

625 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:39:30pm

re: #621 Tigger2005

Unfortunately, we'll then discover the world is also inhabited by talking apes.

And is also the 13,349,782nd holiest site in Islam

626 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:40:12pm

re: #604 Salem

That word has lost much of it's impact since they stopped burning people at the stake for it.

The cost of the carbon credits for immolation is just sky-high.

627 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:40:42pm

re: #626 OldLineTexan

The cost of the carbon credits for immolation is just sky-high.

Perhaps we could consider mulching?

628 Silhouette  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:40:57pm

Not only do I not wish to flee America, we cannot. There is no where to go.

In castle language, we are the Keep, the fallback position, for the world. If we fall, there is nothing left.

629 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:41:15pm

re: #621 Tigger2005

Unfortunately, we'll then discover the world is also inhabited by talking apes.

Read all about it in my new book, Charlton Heston Died For Your Sins.

630 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:41:19pm

re: #613 Killian Bundy
From the article:

Obama tells the magazine’s Sandra Sobieraj Westfall in a seven-page cover story that he and his wife follow the unusual practice because they “want to teach some limits.”


What possible limit? I couldn't wait to buy my children Christmas and birthday presents. Every opportunity, including falling into some extra money, was an excuse to buy them something. There's just something about islam that can't be shaken loose, I think.

631 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:41:23pm

re: #604 Salem

Silly. They ripped out their tongues. Heretics and apostates were burned.

632 nyc redneck  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:41:56pm

re: #628 Silhouette

Not only do I not wish to flee America, we cannot. There is no where to go.

In castle language, we are the Keep, the fallback position, for the world. If we fall, there is nothing left.

i'm staying too.

633 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:42:12pm

re: #627 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"So, that's be your partner in the woodchipper, eh?"

634 songbird  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:42:26pm

Just a funny picture.

635 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:43:40pm

re: #627 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Perhaps we could consider mulching?

The police in Houston caught a guy who did that with a chipper/shredder. It was a rental (Hint One: If you murder your wife and chip her into the bayou, don't be a cheap SOB, buy the machine), and the clerk wondered why he brought it back so clean. The police found fabric and organic remains and busted him.

636 wolfie  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:44:09pm

re: #613 Killian Bundy

Okay. I can see not buying a kid birthday presents if you're spending "hundreds" on a party.......although how it is that spending "hundreds" on a birthday party "sets limits" beats me.

But Christmas?

Ugh.

637 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:44:51pm

re: #635 OldLineTexan

He should have frozen the body, then mulched it. Less shredding.

(Oops! Did I say that?)

638 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:48:11pm

re: #630 EC Marm

From the article:

What possible limit? I couldn't wait to buy my children Christmas and birthday presents. Every opportunity, including falling into some extra money, was an excuse to buy them something. There's just something about islam that can't be shaken loose, I think.

Apparently the Obama's are of the LLL mindset, that you always jump to the extreme. No subtlety at all. I love buying things for my son, but I really love when he saves his allowance and buys things for himself.

639 LeePro  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:48:50pm

re: #601 calcajun

I dare say there will be American boat people one day. Just where we'll flee to is anyone's guess.

Hmmmm...
Historically boat people have fled to America because it was better. There is no "better" for us to flee TO!

I'd rather count on a healthy uprising!

640 akak  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:49:46pm
MOSCOW, July 24 (Itar-Tass) - Russia tendered an application on co-chairmanship at the Intersession Meeting of the ASEAN Regional Forum (ARF) on countering terrorism and transnational crime in 2010, reported the Russian Foreign Ministry by the results of the 15th session of the ASEAN Regional Forum on security in Singapore.

[Link: www.itar-tass.com...]

Oh great, first Putin says Russia sides with Islam - then he wants to counter them.

641 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:52:02pm

re: #628 Silhouette

Not only do I not wish to flee America, we cannot. There is no where to go. In castle language, we are the Keep, the fallback position, for the world. If we fall, there is nothing left.

Agreed. To paraphrase the great Ronald Reagan, We are the last, best, hope on this planet for mankind.

642 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:52:21pm

re: #639 LeePro

Unfortunately, the only healthy uprisings with which people are concerned these days are those caused by Viagra and Cialis.

643 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:53:12pm
644 yochanan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:54:53pm

to ding or not to ding that is the question


or is it to ding-a-ling

645 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:54:59pm

re: #640 akak

Oh great, first Putin says Russia sides with Islam - then he wants to counter them.

Given the brutality with which they treated the Mohammedans in Chechnya, let up hope they become a foil to them even if they become an adversary to us.

646 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:56:18pm

re: #643 buzzsawmonkey

...but no pressure.

Lots of pressure. And heat. Thereby does a lump of coal become a diamond.

647 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:56:29pm

re: #644 yochanan

To be or not to be --Shakespeare

To be is to do--Aristotle

Do be do be doo --Sinatra

648 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 4:58:44pm

re: #618 CyanSnowHawk

Barack "Ebenezer" Obama.


Hehehe. Works for me.

649 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:00:04pm

re: #526 EC Marm

Phone call over.
So. Getting back to the whole issue. Kilgore had links to a poll that showed different countries results to the creationist/evolution question. Japan was at the top of the list as being most pro-evolution while the United States was down near the bottom, just above the predominately islamic country of Turkey. His point, I gather, was that Japan was most pro-science. Thinking about it the past few days I thought what event put Japan into such a frame of mind. During WWII they elevated, in their minds, their Emporer* to divine status. Obviously, the repercussions of losing a war and having two of their major cities reduced to smoking rubble might just have some effect on their current mindset about deities and divine intervention and created a backlash.
Yet the nation of Japan has not landed on the moon and returned. It has not put SUV's on Mars. Japan not discovered how to make fusion work. The people live in homes that average 500 sq. feet in size. I have 500 feet of closet space in my house.
Somehow, with all of the different mindsets of the people of this country, whether atheist, Christian, Jew, Fundamentalist, whatever, we are still the leader in the world.
That doesn't mean I think that I.D. should be taught in schools if it lacks a scientific foundation. Just that we should recognize that while we may disagree in varying amounts, lets do it amicably. It's not as if we are some 3rd world country fighting for the crumbs that land on the floor.

*Islamist have a similar attitude, in my opinion, that mirrors that of the people of Japan during WWII.

Actually, Iceland was at the top of the list. I don't think that they have been possessed by a fanatical religion or have been nuked recently. But being surrounded by bare ground and ice alla tha time, they probably have plenty of time to think about things.

650 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:00:36pm

re: #639 LeePro

I'd rather count on a healthy uprising!

Count on it. At no time ever in its history was this nation more divided than it is today; the 40% on the right will never be reconciled to the 40% on the left as they have almost NOTHING of any substance in common, while the remaining 20% (the morons in the middle) are too busy watching reality TV to know or care.

651 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:06:36pm

re: #574 EC Marm

Who is Salamantis and why is it going around dinging? Come out and say something.

I'm a tomato, EC. I began this thread late, after there were already hundreds of posts, and it's taking me a while to ketchup.

652 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:08:34pm

re: #599 Killian Bundy

re: #574 EC Marm

Who is Salamantis and why is it going around dinging? Come out and say something.

/a militant atheist that only comments on ID/creation threads

Actually, a nonfundamentalist pagan with a philosophy degree who has a great respect for empirical science.

653 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:10:07pm

re: #652 Salamantis

nonfundamentalist pagan

Is your use of the word 'pagan' connotative or denotative?

654 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:10:36pm

re: #607 EC Marm

re: #590 VegasRick

Who did it ding?

A person who likes to fling excrement.

True enough. I do love to ding excrement-flingers.

655 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:11:31pm

re: #653 NemoParticularis

Is your use of the word 'pagan' connotative or denotative?

I have been a practicing pagan for 30+ years. But I am not fundamentalist about it.

656 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:13:03pm

re: #604 Salem

That word has lost much of it's impact since they stopped burning people at the stake for it.

Yeah, but some people here weren't polled on that decision...;~)

657 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:14:00pm

re: #655 Salamantis

practicing pagan


Sounds like an oxymoron; like organized anarchists.

658 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:14:58pm

re: #655 Salamantis

I have been a practicing pagan for 30+ years. But I am not fundamentalist about it.

You did not answer my question, sir. Perhaps I was not clear. How do you define the word "pagan" as it applies to you?

659 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:19:05pm

re: #658 NemoParticularis

You did not answer my question, sir. Perhaps I was not clear. How do you define the word "pagan" as it applies to you?

Read this:

[Link: blog.myspace.com...]

It got me an A in a graduate level cultural anthropology class, taught by this man:

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

660 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:21:48pm

re: #649 Salamantis

Actually, Iceland was at the top of the list. I don't think that they have been possessed by a fanatical religion or have been nuked recently. But being surrounded by bare ground and ice alla tha time, they probably have plenty of time to think about things.


I remember it as Japan, but lets take a look at Iceland:

Lutheran Church of Iceland 85.5%, Reykjavik Free Church 2.1%, Roman Catholic Church 2%, Hafnarfjorour Free Church 1.5%, other Christian 2.7%, other or unspecified 3.8%, unaffiliated 2.4% (2004)


CIA Factbook, they secured the server so you'll have to google it if you don't believe it. Interesting.

661 papa_giorgio  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:24:24pm

.

The dinosaur is encased in sedimentary rock... something akin to a flood. So simply showing a dinosaur and then saying (hopefully in jest... if not, then a gross misrepresentation of what creationists teach) they were placed there to "fool unbelievers" is asinine.

.

662 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:24:48pm

re: #659 Salamantis

Read this

Skimmed through it. Very interesting. But it does not answer my question - unless the answer is that you are a Wiccan.

663 Cognito  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:27:22pm

re: #88 Walter L. Newton

Fixation can be a tad ugly.

664 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:28:34pm

re: #663 Cognito

Fixation can be a tad ugly.

Not if it involves dentures and the roof of one's mouth - in which case the absence of fixation can be even uglier.

665 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:30:55pm

re: #56 looking closely

The existence of dinosuars really only poses a problem if you believe that the Old Testament is *literally* true (ie that the world is only 6000 years old, and that God physically sculpted man out of earth and breathed life into his nostrils).

Then again, evolution really only poses a problem if you believe the above.

Well, I have to quibble with the "only" part -- since I was raised Christian, I know that evolution has a number of implications that Christians are apt to find problematic, even if they reject Genesis literalism.

For example, if you accept the basic factuality of evolutionary biology, and also have a good layman's grasp of chemistry and astronomy, it's almost a given that evolution without God's constant micromanagement has, at the very least, produced complex biodiversity (albeit WITHOUT producing human-like intelligence) on tens of millions of planets.

Actually, the universe is so large and so old, and the chemicals needed for "complex biodiversity" are so commonplace, and the types of stars needed to support Earth-like planets on which these chemicals could conceivably come together to create life are so run-of-the-mill, that it's probably safe to predict that complex but non-intelligent life has come into existence on BILLIONS of planets, not just tens of millions.

And if non-intelligent life exists on billions of planets, might it be the case that creatures at least as intelligent as Homo sapiens currently exist (or formerly existed, or someday will exist) on at least a few million planets throughout the vastness of the universe?

But let's suppose that out of all these billions of life-supporting planets, there are only ten planets inhabited by creatures whose brains are sophisticated enough to support self-aware consciousness, and abstract language use, and to make aesthetic distinctions between "beautiful" and "ugly," and to make moral distinctions between "right" and "wrong."

Even if there are only TEN such planets in the entire universe, however, that's nine more than are discussed in the Christian Bible, and this leads to a challenging question for Christians. If there are extra-terrestrials capable of distinguishing between "right" and "wrong," then there are extra-terrestrials capable of sinning.

And if so, from whence will come their Salvation?

666 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:35:04pm

re: #662 NemoParticularis

Skimmed through it. Very interesting. But it does not answer my question - unless the answer is that you are a Wiccan.

I consider myself to be a nonfundamentalist Eclectic Wiccan.

667 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:36:38pm

re: #665 Throbert McGee

Well, I have to quibble with the "only" part -- since I was raised Christian, I know that evolution has a number of implications that Christians are apt to find problematic, even if they reject Genesis literalism.

For example, if you accept the basic factuality of evolutionary biology, and also have a good layman's grasp of chemistry and astronomy, it's almost a given that evolution without God's constant micromanagement has, at the very least, produced complex biodiversity (albeit WITHOUT producing human-like intelligence) on tens of millions of planets.

Actually, the universe is so large and so old, and the chemicals needed for "complex biodiversity" are so commonplace, and the types of stars needed to support Earth-like planets on which these chemicals could conceivably come together to create life are so run-of-the-mill, that it's probably safe to predict that complex but non-intelligent life has come into existence on BILLIONS of planets, not just tens of millions.

And if non-intelligent life exists on billions of planets, might it be the case that creatures at least as intelligent as Homo sapiens currently exist (or formerly existed, or someday will exist) on at least a few million planets throughout the vastness of the universe?

But let's suppose that out of all these billions of life-supporting planets, there are only ten planets inhabited by creatures whose brains are sophisticated enough to support self-aware consciousness, and abstract language use, and to make aesthetic distinctions between "beautiful" and "ugly," and to make moral distinctions between "right" and "wrong."

Even if there are only TEN such planets in the entire universe, however, that's nine more than are discussed in the Christian Bible, and this leads to a challenging question for Christians. If there are extra-terrestrials capable of distinguishing between "right" and "wrong," then there are extra-terrestrials capable of sinning.

And if so, from whence will come their Salvation?

This doesn't present problems for Mormons; they totally believe in (human) life on other planets.

668 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:36:43pm

re: #665 Throbert McGee

Same question as here, more or less, but the infidels.org folks display a stunning lack of understanding of the nature of Christ or His sacrifice as explained for millenia by Christian theology.

My answer?

God will provide as He sees fit.

And those anal probing Greys may be in a lot of trouble, cosmically speaking.

669 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:37:20pm

re: #665 Throbert McGee

That problem was answered perfectly in the Star Trek episode about the Roman planet. The Son of God showed up there too, several centuries after He showed up on our planet.

670 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:38:02pm

re: #667 Salamantis

This doesn't present problems for Mormons; they totally believe in (human) life on other planets.

I'm no Mormon, and I have absolutely no problem with the idea that there is life (even human life) somewhere else.

At this point in time, they do not affect my life or salvation.

671 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:38:18pm

re: #668 OldLineTexan

I'm sorry... I didn't realize this was an anal probe thread...

672 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:38:29pm

re: #665 Throbert McGee

Well, I have to quibble with the "only" part -- since I was raised Christian, I know that evolution has a number of implications that Christians are apt to find problematic, even if they reject Genesis literalism.

Some Christians, perhaps. Not this one.

For example, if you accept the basic factuality of evolutionary biology, and also have a good layman's grasp of chemistry and astronomy, it's almost a given that evolution without God's constant micromanagement has, at the very least, produced complex biodiversity (albeit WITHOUT producing human-like intelligence) on tens of millions of planets.

No, it is NOT almost a given. Not even close. The possibility exists, perhaps even the probability. But until we know with empirical certainty, one guess is just that - a guess - and is as good as any other.

And if so, from whence will come their Salvation?

Sorry to nitpick, but "from whence" is redundant: 'whence' means 'from where.'

To answer your question: if and when we ever encounter them, perhaps someone will have the presence of theological mind to pose this question. In the meantime, I am far too busy keeping my own spiritual ass out of the sling to give a moment's thought or concern to the eschatology of extraterrestrial beings who may or may not exist.

673 EC Marm  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:39:03pm

re: #660 EC Marm
addl: If using predominately Lutheran Iceland as a clue that Lutherans embrace evolution more along the lines of Catholicism, then who is left?
The CIA Factbook doesn't break down the Protestant sects in the U.S.:

Protestant 51.3%, Roman Catholic 23.9%, Mormon 1.7%, other Christian 1.6%, Jewish 1.7%, Buddhist 0.7%, Muslim 0.6%, other or unspecified 2.5%, unaffiliated 12.1%, none 4% (2007 est.)


But I seem to remember the major ones as being Lutheran, Presbyterian, Methodist, and Baptist. From Wiki:

Since then, American Christians developed in their own path. During the Great Awakenings interdenominational evangelicalism, Pentecostalism and Christian fundamentalism emerged, along with new Protestant denominations such as Adventism, and new branches of Restorationism, particularly Jehovah's Witnesses and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, also commonly referred to as Mormonism. Today, with 16.6 million adherents (5.3% of the total population), Southern Baptist is the largest Protestant denomination.[8] Of the total population, Evangelicals comprise 26.3%, and Mainline Protestants 16%.


Where's KT?

674 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:39:11pm

re: #668 OldLineTexan

Same question as here, more or less, but the infidels.org folks display a stunning lack of understanding of the nature of Christ or His sacrifice as explained for millenia by Christian theology.

My answer?

God will provide as He sees fit.

And those anal probing Greys may be in a lot of trouble, cosmically speaking.

I finf this article to be very informative concerning the ranifications of such conclusions:

Where Are They?
Why I hope the search for extraterrestrial life finds nothing.
By Nick Bostrom
[Link: www.technologyreview.com...]
(free registration required)

675 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:39:20pm

re: #670 OldLineTexan

I would more easily believe in intelligent life on other planets if I could find evidence of it on this one.

676 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:40:00pm

re: #538 Salamantis

Blasphemous image alert (you did this to me!):

Jesus exits the tomb, extends clawed fingers, bares yellow fangs, and shambles towards town screaming BRRAAAAAIINZZZ!

Heh!

But don't think you're so special, Salamantis -- I've heard variations on the "Zombie Jesus" joke from devout Christians, for what it's worth. (Obviously, these were people from the school of Christianity that says "Of course He can take a rude joke... He's Omnipotent.")

677 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:41:37pm

re: #675 Kenneth

I would more easily believe in intelligent life on other planets if I could find evidence of it on this one.

The white mice are very, very cross with you right now.

678 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:42:01pm

re: #674

Umm...I FIND this article to be very informative concerning the RAMifications of such conclusions:

PIMF

679 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:42:54pm

re: #666 Salamantis

I consider myself to be a nonfundamentalist Eclectic Wiccan.

Fascinating. The nonfundamentalist part seems pretty self-explanatory - unless you attach a special nuance to this word. Eclectic likewise seems self-explanatory. However, youc apitalized the word, thereby extending to it a certain significance.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate? What does an Eclectic Wiccan believe in?

680 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:48:46pm

re: #679 NemoParticularis

Fascinating. The nonfundamentalist part seems pretty self-explanatory - unless you attach a special nuance to this word. Eclectic likewise seems self-explanatory. However, youc apitalized the word, thereby extending to it a certain significance.

Would you be so kind as to elaborate? What does an Eclectic Wiccan believe in?

I'd advise you to first closely peruse the paper, then return with more specific enquiries. But one thing I will point out is that the word 'eclectic' entails that different Eclectic Wiccans can select different beliefs.

Personally, I believe that it's okay for me to go to sleep at night, and okay for me to wake up in the morning. And although I want to continue to do those things as long as is possible I also believe that it'll be okay when, one day, I don't.

681 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:51:00pm

re: #661 papa_giorgio

.

The dinosaur is encased in sedimentary rock... something akin to a flood. So simply showing a dinosaur and then saying (hopefully in jest... if not, then a gross misrepresentation of what creationists teach) they were placed there to "fool unbelievers" is asinine.

.

So are you saying it's a flood, or are you saying it's "the flood"?

682 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:53:52pm

re: #681 Thanos

re: #661 papa_giorgio

The dinosaur is encased in sedimentary rock... something akin to a flood. So simply showing a dinosaur and then saying (hopefully in jest... if not, then a gross misrepresentation of what creationists teach) they were placed there to "fool unbelievers" is asinine.

So are you saying it's a flood, or are you saying it's "the flood"?<

And is he saying that people were around all those tens of millions of years ago to witness it, perhaps bobbing around in a wooden Ark?

683 Kenneth  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:54:41pm

re: #680 Salamantis

It will be ok when, one day, I don't wake up as well. But as I have taken Jesus Christ as my Saviour, I have faith that day won't come as a terrible shock. You on the otherhand may be in for a big surprise, because as your "ecelectic" version of faith permits you to pick & chose what you believe, what the Universe truly IS, is not dependant upon your choices.

684 texasjihad  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:59:00pm

Natural diamonds are believed to have been formed deep underground in the upper mantle of the earth’s crust. Under extreme temperature and pressure, pure carbon is formed into the diamond’s crystalline form. Over time, the diamond is moved upwards by rising magma. Natural diamonds are commonly believed to have been formed millions of years ago.

If the rate carbon 14 decays has been consistent, any carbon 14 older than 100,000 years is undetectable by current measuring techniques.

But carbon 14 has been measured within natural diamonds. Either the decay rate of carbon 14 is not uniform, the diamonds are younger than believed, or both. Carbon 14 in diamonds is evidence that the earth is thousands of years old, not millions.

685 texasjihad  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:59:29pm

The shiny black specks in granite are mica. Within mica are natural zircon crystals, only a few microns in size. Helium quickly diffuses out of zircon.

If the granite is millions of years old, as commonly believed, all the helium should be gone.

However, measurements indicate that much of the helium still remains. Either the diffusion rate of the helium is not uniform, the zircon crystals are younger than believed, or both. Helium in granite is evidence that the earth is thousands of years old, not millions.

686 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 5:59:52pm

re: #683 Kenneth

It will be ok when, one day, I don't wake up as well. But as I have taken Jesus Christ as my Saviour, I have faith that day won't come as a terrible shock. You on the otherhand may be in for a big surprise, because as your "ecelectic" version of faith permits you to pick & chose what you believe, what the Universe truly IS, is not dependant upon your choices.

But what I choose to consider the Universe to be is based upon empirical evidence gathered via scientific investigation, and not upon some ancient scripture penned by middle eastern tribesmen who knew vastly less of the universe than do we.

Which consideration does it make logical sense to think is closer to the way things actually are?

687 texasjihad  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:00:01pm

There is not enough salt in the sea or mud on the sea floor for the seas to be billions of years old.

Every year, salt accumulates in the ocean from rivers. Given the present rate it is increasing per year, the current 3.5 percent ocean salinity is much too low if this process has been going on for a very long time.

Mud enters the seas through rivers and dust storms. This occurs at much faster rates than plate tectonic subduction can remove it. Each year, 19 billion tons of mud accumulates. If the oceans were ancient, the oceans would be choked with sediment dozens of kilometers deep.

688 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:03:16pm

re: #684 texasjihad

Natural diamonds are believed to have been formed deep underground in the upper mantle of the earth’s crust. Under extreme temperature and pressure, pure carbon is formed into the diamond’s crystalline form. Over time, the diamond is moved upwards by rising magma. Natural diamonds are commonly believed to have been formed millions of years ago.

If the rate carbon 14 decays has been consistent, any carbon 14 older than 100,000 years is undetectable by current measuring techniques.

But carbon 14 has been measured within natural diamonds. Either the decay rate of carbon 14 is not uniform, the diamonds are younger than believed, or both. Carbon 14 in diamonds is evidence that the earth is thousands of years old, not millions.

There are a whole lot of different radiometric dating methods:

Types of radiometric dating
argon-argon (Ar-Ar)
fission track dating
helium (He-He)
iodine-xenon (I-Xe)
lanthanum-barium (La-Ba)
lead-lead (Pb-Pb)
lutetium-hafnium (Lu-Hf)
neon-neon (Ne-Ne)
optically stimulated luminescence dating
potassium-argon (K-Ar)
radiocarbon dating
rhenium-osmium (Re-Os)
rubidium-strontium (Rb-Sr)
samarium-neodymium (Sm-Nd)
uranium-lead (U-Pb)
uranium-lead-helium (U-Pb-He)
uranium-thorium (U-Th)
uranium-uranium (U-U)

Are you seriously going to try to tell me that when they break a single rock into several chunks, subject each of them to a different radiometric dating method, and the yielded dates converge upon a date hundreds of millions, or perhaps even billions, of years old, that they are all so horribly wrong in the same direction and to the same degree?

Bovine offal.

689 DesertSage  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:04:01pm

What the hell does empirical evidence gathered via scientific investigation have anything whatsoever to do with the existence of God?

I'm baffled?
I thought science and faith had nothing to do with each other. So said Stinky.

690 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:04:17pm

re: #672 NemoParticularis

No, it is NOT almost a given. Not even close. The possibility exists, perhaps even the probability. But until we know with empirical certainty, one guess is just that - a guess - and is as good as any other.

You contradict yourself here -- because that which is "probable" and that which is "almost a given" are roughly the same thing. Furthermore, it's ridiculous to say that in the absence of empirical certainty, any guess is as good as any other -- because while Truth may be absolute, Falsehood is relative. Some false statements are close approximations of the truth, while other false statements fall miles short of the truth. Similarly, there are degrees of probability and improbability.

And if so, from whence will come their Salvation?

Sorry to nitpick, but "from whence" is redundant: 'whence' means 'from where.'

You're right, and my Latin teacher would've had a fit to see me write that -- he taught us that "Ablative of Place From Which" could also be called "Albative of Place From Where" or "Ablative of Place Whence," but NOT "Ablative of Place From Whence," as that would be redundant.

To answer your question: if and when we ever encounter them, perhaps someone will have the presence of theological mind to pose this question. In the meantime, I am far too busy keeping my own spiritual ass out of the sling to give a moment's thought or concern to the eschatology of extraterrestrial beings who may or may not exist.

That's a perfectly reasonable position, but my point remains: by showing us that the existence of extraterrestrial sinners is rather more probable than earlier generations of Christians might've supposed, modern science presents today's Christians with a challenging question.

691 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:04:41pm

re: #680 Salamantis

I'd advise you to first closely peruse the paper, then return with more specific enquiries. But one thing I will point out is that the word 'eclectic' entails that different Eclectic Wiccans can select different beliefs.

I have perused it a bit more closely, Mr. Salamantis, and I must repeat that it is quite fascinating - if somewhat vague with regard to specific tenets or beliefs. Or, perhaps, I am simply being obtuse and, if so, I apologize.

Personally, I believe that it's okay for me to go to sleep at night, and okay for me to wake up in the morning. And although I want to continue to do those things as long as is possible I also believe that it'll be okay when, one day, I don't.

Does this sum up your Wiccan belief, or is there more to it?

692 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:05:26pm

re: #687 texasjihad

There is not enough salt in the sea or mud on the sea floor for the seas to be billions of years old.

Every year, salt accumulates in the ocean from rivers. Given the present rate it is increasing per year, the current 3.5 percent ocean salinity is much too low if this process has been going on for a very long time.

Mud enters the seas through rivers and dust storms. This occurs at much faster rates than plate tectonic subduction can remove it. Each year, 19 billion tons of mud accumulates. If the oceans were ancient, the oceans would be choked with sediment dozens of kilometers deep.

There's not enough water on the planet to flood over all of the land, or even close to enough, even if all the glaciers and ice caps melted down to the last liquefying crystal.

And salt also accumulates in the sediment under the sea. That's why we have such things as massive salt mines underground, where seas once sat.

693 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:07:26pm

re: #692 Salamantis

There's not enough water on the planet to flood over all of the land, or even close to enough, even if all the glaciers and ice caps melted down to the last liquefying crystal.

And salt also accumulates in the sediment under the sea. That's why we have such things as massive salt mines underground, where seas once sat.

Whatever you do, don't tell him that most of Texas was once underwater for a looooong time.

/it's a secret

694 LEGION  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:10:24pm

re: #651 Salamantis

The mommy, pappa & baby tomatoe were walking down the street and the baby was lagging behind- the pappa went back to the baby and stepped on it- he then said- Ketchup!

695 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:11:34pm

re: #686 Salamantis

Which consideration does it make logical sense to think is closer to the way things actually are?

As I see it...the consideration I have chosen is based on very simple logic: matter and energy cannot create themselves. I know the universe had a beginning. It follows that a principal greater than the sum of the parts had to be responsible. I call that God.

It is what I believe - a belief for which I haven't any empirical proof beyond the initial syllogism. I believe it because it pleases me to believe it. If someone else chooses not to believe it, that is their business, not mine.

696 jaunte  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:13:11pm

Notes on zircons, helium, and salt, for the curious:
[Link: www.nmsr.org...]

697 Annar  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:13:22pm

re: #218 songbird

Looks Photoshopped to me. The Bible does talk about a race of big guys - Goliath being one who, I think, was nine feet tall, but that pic is outrageous!

Wrong! It's one of those Djinn that Muhammad made up in his fairy tale religion.

698 calcajun  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:14:32pm

re: #692 Salamantis

There's not enough water on the planet to flood over all of the land, or even close to enough, even if all the glaciers and ice caps melted down to the last liquefying crystal.

Tell that to Kevin Costner!

699 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:15:14pm

re: #683 Kenneth

It will be ok when, one day, I don't wake up as well. But as I have taken Jesus Christ as my Saviour, I have faith that day won't come as a terrible shock. You on the other hand may be in for a big surprise

On the other hand, if Islam turns out to be the truth, you and I will both be in for a terrible shock, Kenneth.

The difference is, while we're both having the flesh ripped from our bones by Islamic demons in Muslim Hell, I'll be able to take some small comfort from my memories of a life spent joyously sinning -- while you'll be going "Dang it, why did I waste my time following that stupid Jewish hippy from Nazareth, when I should've been kissing up to Muhammed and Allah?"

700 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:15:50pm

re: #691 NemoParticularis

I'd advise you to first closely peruse the paper, then return with more specific enquiries. But one thing I will point out is that the word 'eclectic' entails that different Eclectic Wiccans can select different beliefs.

I have perused it a bit more closely, Mr. Salamantis, and I must repeat that it is quite fascinating - if somewhat vague with regard to specific tenets or beliefs. Or, perhaps, I am simply being obtuse and, if so, I apologize.

Personally, I believe that it's okay for me to go to sleep at night, and okay for me to wake up in the morning. And although I want to continue to do those things as long as is possible I also believe that it'll be okay when, one day, I don't.

Does this sum up your Wiccan belief, or is there more to it?

My cultural anthropology professor once told me that any cultural anthropologist who wasn't a pagan didn't deeply understand or comprehend his own field of study.

I myself am less of a belief person and more of a practice person, and a knowledge person. I enjoy the company of other Pagans, and enjoy attending circles and performing rituals with them. They like me to show up because I am knowledgeable in the faith, so I am able to capably assist, and because I am 1/4 Creek, and know how to build them sweat lodges.

I have engaged in divination and spellcasting exercises, but as the paper says, I see them as means to employ mental technologies such as imprinting and subconscious imagery accessing, and not to be supernatural, but instead based upon solid empirical principles.

I do embrace that it is easier for most people to view the massively complex vista of universal reality in human terms via a mythic lens, but I personally endeavor to dispense with such mediation as much as I can manage.

701 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:16:36pm

re: #687 texasjihad

There is not enough salt in the sea or mud on the sea floor for the seas to be billions of years old.

Every year, salt accumulates in the ocean from rivers. Given the present rate it is increasing per year, the current 3.5 percent ocean salinity is much too low if this process has been going on for a very long time.

Mud enters the seas through rivers and dust storms. This occurs at much faster rates than plate tectonic subduction can remove it. Each year, 19 billion tons of mud accumulates. If the oceans were ancient, the oceans would be choked with sediment dozens of kilometers deep.

Not the salt thing again. We had this back at the beginning of these posts....

Austin and Humphreys greatly underestimate the amount of sodium lost in the alteration of basalt. They omit sodium lost in the formation of diatomaceous earth, and they omit numerous others mechanisms which are minor individually but collectively account for a significant fraction of salt.

A detailed analysis of sodium shows that 35.6 x 1010 kg/yr come into the ocean, and 38.1 x 1010 kg/yr are removed (Morton 1996). Within measurement error, the amount of sodium added matches the amount removed.

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

702 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:17:47pm

Also see my spinoff link for another source.

703 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:18:00pm

re: #695 NemoParticularis

As I see it...the consideration I have chosen is based on very simple logic: matter and energy cannot create themselves. I know the universe had a beginning. It follows that a principal greater than the sum of the parts had to be responsible. I call that God.

It is what I believe - a belief for which I haven't any empirical proof beyond the initial syllogism. I believe it because it pleases me to believe it. If someone else chooses not to believe it, that is their business, not mine.

And then who created this God? And if it is not necessary for God to be created, why is it necessary for the Universe to be created? Instead of just happening as a result of a random quantum fluctuation?

Occam's Razor: Do not multiply explanatory entities beyond necessity.

704 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:19:23pm

re: #690 Throbert McGee

You contradict yourself here -- because that which is "probable" and that which is "almost a given" are roughly the same thing.

Ehhhhh....okay. I'll concede the point, although I believe that the words "almost a given" carry a little bit more rhetorical weight than "probable." The former seems to imply that X is pretty much a sure thing while the latter seems to imply that X is very likely. A degree of difference rather than kind, perhaps.

Furthermore, it's ridiculous to say that in the absence of empirical certainty, any guess is as good as any other -- because while Truth may be absolute, Falsehood is relative. Some false statements are close approximations of the truth, while other false statements fall miles short of the truth. Similarly, there are degrees of probability and improbability.

It is ridiculous and I realized the error of the proposition after I hit the Post Comment button, natch.

by showing us that the existence of extraterrestrial sinners is rather more probable than earlier generations of Christians might've supposed, modern science presents today's Christians with a challenging question.

I very much agree, Mr. McGee.

705 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:19:25pm

re: #689 DesertSage

What the hell does empirical evidence gathered via scientific investigation have anything whatsoever to do with the existence of God?

I'm baffled?
I thought science and faith had nothing to do with each other. So said Stinky.

It seems to be the creationists, especially the young earth variety, who insist upon fabricating such faux evidence; I am merely debunking it.

706 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:21:18pm

re: #685 texasjihad

The shiny black specks in granite are mica. Within mica are natural zircon crystals, only a few microns in size. Helium quickly diffuses out of zircon.

If the granite is millions of years old, as commonly believed, all the helium should be gone.

However, measurements indicate that much of the helium still remains. Either the diffusion rate of the helium is not uniform, the zircon crystals are younger than believed, or both. Helium in granite is evidence that the earth is thousands of years old, not millions.

[Link: www.gate.net...]


Description Technique Age (in billions of years)

Amitsoq gneisses (western Greenland) Rb-Sr isochron 3.70 +- 0.12
Amitsoq gneisses (western Greenland) 207Pb-206Pb isochron 3.80 +- 0.12
Amitsoq gneisses (western Greenland) (zircons) U-Pb discordia 3.65 +- 0.05
Amitsoq gneisses (western Greenland) (zircons) Th-Pb discordia 3.65 +- 0.08
Amitsoq gneisses (western Greenland) (zircons) Lu-Hf isochron 3.55 +- 0.22
Sand River gneisses (South Africa) Rb-Sr isochron 3.79 +- 0.06

707 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:21:24pm

re: #685 texasjihad

The shiny black specks in granite are mica. Within mica are natural zircon crystals, only a few microns in size. Helium quickly diffuses out of zircon.

If the granite is millions of years old, as commonly believed, all the helium should be gone.

However, measurements indicate that much of the helium still remains. Either the diffusion rate of the helium is not uniform, the zircon crystals are younger than believed, or both. Helium in granite is evidence that the earth is thousands of years old, not millions.


Radiometric dating of zircon, learn what you are talking about first.

[Link: www.noanswersingenesis.org.au...]

708 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:23:34pm

re: #188 medaura18586

Slightly OT, but not really, if you think about it:

The freshly-banned BabbaZee calling Charles Johnson 'satan' and 'an attention whore' (among other lovely characterizations) in the comment section of Gagdad Bob's latest post:

Banned huh? Didn't know that, although I have wondered where his/it's somewhat special prose was these days. I have some interest since his was probably the first post I responded to here, and that was to tell him he was a foul mouthed juvenile, for which I was soundly flamed by a whole hoard of ditto heads.

I did however eventually come to realize that he lived in a different dimension and my simple earthly opinion was perhaps not really relevant to that plane of existence, nor his to mine, but I kind of liked the puzzle of figuring out what the hell he was saying most of the time.

Oh well.....

709 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:23:38pm

re: #700 Salamantis

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing your belief. I have some new things to think about.

710 gman  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:27:33pm

If T-rex and this new Tarbosaurus used to be vegetarians, shouldn't we be looking for the missing veggie link?

/

711 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:27:34pm

re: #708 Naso Tang

"She".

The clue is Babba.

712 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:31:02pm

re: #711 OldLineTexan

"She".

The clue is Babba.

I think I remembered that after hitting post; not that it matters here.

713 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:31:21pm

re: #709 NemoParticularis

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing your belief. I have some new things to think about.

I hope that you noticed that I endeavored to be objective and evenhanded in the paper, and that the last section was entitled Difficulties...

I believe that Darwin did that, too...;~)

714 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:34:57pm

re: #711 OldLineTexan

Now that you have my attention:

1. babba

Arabic for "father" or "daddy"

2. babba


a west midlands slang term of endearment
hello babba, what did you do over the weekend?
term of endearment baby babe darling etc

3. babba

to go and make poo-poo
I'm off to the bog to have a babba
shit dump crap bowel buster poo

4. babba

Northern English term for poo. Noun, but also can be used as an adjective
"What a heap of babba"
"Look at her babbery bumhole"

5. babba

Bristolian term, used to describe non travelling pikie, usually from The Mead (southmead), the heART (hartcliffe) or from the knowle (knowle west).
oil right my babber. thats a right good ideal.

6. babba

A name for a very childish person.
"Justin, you are such a babba!"

715 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:36:27pm

re: #703 Salamantis

And then who created this God? And if it is not necessary for God to be created, why is it necessary for the Universe to be created? Instead of just happening as a result of a random quantum fluctuation?

Random quantum fluctuation can occur only in that which already exists, Mr. Salamantis, and does not explain how that which exists came into existence.

As for your first question, it follows logically that the source of all existence cannot itself be subject to, or limited by, the constraints of material existence and therefore cannot itself have been created, otherwise we will be arguing turtles all the way down. Rather than shunning Occam's Razor, I am employing it with logical efficiency: there is an explanatory entity necessary for the existence of the universe, since the physical universe cannot create itself. Call it what you will: the Prime Mover, the First Cause, whatever. I call it God.

716 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:37:01pm

BTW, Nemo, in case your interested, the same professor to whom I presented my paper contrasting Christianity and Communism also gave me an A in a graduate level Eastern Religions class for my comparative study of Zen Buddhism and Existential Phenomenology. Maybe you will also find it to be interesting:

[Link: blog.myspace.com...]

717 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:37:49pm

re: #714 Naso Tang

Your number one I have only seen as "Abba".

Not that it matters here.

You missed a very common "Baba/Babba", but I'm sure you know that.

718 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:39:05pm

re: #713 Salamantis

I hope that you noticed that I endeavored to be objective and evenhanded in the paper, and that the last section was entitled Difficulties...I believe that Darwin did that, too...;~)

I did notice that and appreciate it. I likewise appreciate the even-haded and reasonable tone of our discourse. Would that our moonbat friends on either side of the political or theological aisle were as temperate!

719 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:39:27pm

re: #717 OldLineTexan

Probably not, but I hesitate to ask in case we have to continue. ;)

720 DesertSage  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:40:09pm

re: #705 Salamantis

It seems to be the creationists, especially the young earth variety, who insist upon fabricating such faux evidence; I am merely debunking it.

I find these threads fascinating.
We have a situation here where we have two completely different subjects - science and faith. To me, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

People here though seem to be trying to convince the other side that one subject trumps the other. On one extreme side you have 'young earth creationists' and on the other extreme side you have 'atheists'. One wants to use faith to prove science, the other wants to use science to disprove faith. Not all of them mind you, just a few on either side.

Faith and science are two separate things. One will never disprove the other. Yes, science will disprove the views of the 'young earth creationists' and the 'ID' people, but it will never disprove the existence of God. Likewise, faith in God will never disprove empirical scientific evidence.

If someone wants to believe that God doesn't exist, that's fine. I have atheist friends who are some of the best people in the world.
If someone wants to believe in God, that's fine too. I have friends who are people of faith who are some of the best people in the world also.

You Salamantis seem to be a great person too. I don't know for sure, but I think you're an atheist. It doesn't matter to me....I accept you because you're a good person. You're never going to convince a person of faith to become an atheist by showing them science. Maybe you should just accept them for the people they are?

721 OldLineTexan  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:40:29pm

re: #719 Naso Tang

Probably not, but I hesitate to ask in case we have to continue. ;)

Oh, sorry. I'll stop right here.

722 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:41:36pm

re: #714 Naso Tang

babba - Bristolian term, used to describe non travelling pikie, usually from The Mead (southmead), the heART (hartcliffe) or from the knowle (knowle west).oil right my babber. thats a right good ideal.

Baba O'Reilly. Now it finally makes sense. What an album.

723 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:42:37pm

re: #720 DesertSage

hear, hear!

724 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:44:08pm

re: #715 NemoParticularis

Random quantum fluctuation can occur only in that which already exists, Mr. Salamantis, and does not explain how that which exists came into existence.

Is this your opinion or a statement of known fact? And, how do you define existence (or non existence btw?)? Perhaps non existence, for example, is where the speed of an electron goes when one measures it's position?

Not that I have those answers either, but it sure sounds like you think you have some pretty fundamental ones, even though you can't explain them.

725 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:44:18pm

re: #716 Salamantis

BTW, Nemo, in case your interested, the same professor to whom I presented my paper contrasting Christianity and Communism also gave me an A in a graduate level Eastern Religions class for my comparative study of Zen Buddhism and Existential Phenomenology. Maybe you will also find it to be interesting

Frankly, I'd love to read the paper contrasting Christianity and Communism. Is it available on your blogsite?

726 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:44:42pm

re: #715 NemoParticularis

And then who created this God? And if it is not necessary for God to be created, why is it necessary for the Universe to be created? Instead of just happening as a result of a random quantum fluctuation?

Random quantum fluctuation can occur only in that which already exists, Mr. Salamantis, and does not explain how that which exists came into existence.

As for your first question, it follows logically that the source of all existence cannot itself be subject to, or limited by, the constraints of material existence and therefore cannot itself have been created, otherwise we will be arguing turtles all the way down. Rather than shunning Occam's Razor, I am employing it with logical efficiency: there is an explanatory entity necessary for the existence of the universe, since the physical universe cannot create itself. Call it what you will: the Prime Mover, the First Cause, whatever. I call it God.

There is another, grander, more elegant, poetic, and (at least to me) beautiful cosmology. A cyclical cosmology. More than a billion Hindus currently embrace it.

Imagine that the Universe has always existed, and always will, and that it resembles a hyperspheric heart that beats once every 40 billion years, collapsing into near nothingness and expanding to practical infinity. Each Big Bang would be simultaneously the Big Crunch of the beat before, and each Big Crunch would simultaneously be the Big Bang of the beat afterwards. Some might even consider such a Universe to be a living God.

Right now, scientists have not found enough matter/energy in the Universe to allow gravity to overcome expansion in this manner, but all dark matter/dark energy in the Universe is not yet accounted for.

727 Kulhwch  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:45:55pm
re: #684 texasjihad

Natural diamonds are believed to have been formed deep underground in the upper mantle of the earth’s crust.

re: #685 texasjihad

The shiny black specks in granite are mica. Within mica are natural zircon crystals, only a few microns in size. Helium quickly diffuses out of zircon.

re: #687 texasjihad

There is not enough salt in the sea or mud on the sea floor for the seas to be billions of years old.

Wow, someobody left the creationist talking points down and the little rascals have just tossed them out there willy-nilly.

Based on the above, here's a new, original one someone may want to submit to ICR for review:

"There isn't enough margarita mix nor shaved ice available on the earth's surface randomly now to allow more than sporadic margarita creation.  It had to be much less in the past.  How are we to believe that thousands of years ago the Ark was supposed to have a cash bar when the amounts of said materials had to have been much less than now?"

}:)     [And another thing, was it a bar, a tavern, or more lounge-like?]

728 DesertSage  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:48:37pm

re: #726 Salamantis

Some might even consider such a Universe to be a living God.

Hmmmm.

Universe = infinite
God = infinite

Could be. You maybe onto something here, Sal.

729 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:50:41pm

re: #720 DesertSage

I find these threads fascinating.
We have a situation here where we have two completely different subjects - science and faith. To me, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

People here though seem to be trying to convince the other side that one subject trumps the other. On one extreme side you have 'young earth creationists' and on the other extreme side you have 'atheists'. One wants to use faith to prove science, the other wants to use science to disprove faith. Not all of them mind you, just a few on either side.

Faith and science are two separate things. One will never disprove the other. Yes, science will disprove the views of the 'young earth creationists' and the 'ID' people, but it will never disprove the existence of God. Likewise, faith in God will never disprove empirical scientific evidence.

If someone wants to believe that God doesn't exist, that's fine. I have atheist friends who are some of the best people in the world.
If someone wants to believe in God, that's fine too. I have friends who are people of faith who are some of the best people in the world also.

You Salamantis seem to be a great person too. I don't know for sure, but I think you're an atheist. It doesn't matter to me....I accept you because you're a good person. You're never going to convince a person of faith to become an atheist by showing them science. Maybe you should just accept them for the people they are?

Thanx for the compliment! It warms the cockles of my widdle heart...;~)

I am not an atheist; I just acknowledge that the chances of a deity existing possessing the attributes by means of which they are usually characterized is vanishingly small. But, the chances cannot be nil, on scientific principle.

But as long as they are trying to smuggle their faith into public high school science classes, they are not accepting others for the people that they are, but instead are endeavoring to change them in venues that they have no legitimate constitutional business intruding themselves in. And there's the rub.

730 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:51:39pm

re: #720 DesertSage

I find these threads fascinating.
We have a situation here where we have two completely different subjects - science and faith. To me, one has absolutely nothing to do with the other.

...................................

Maybe you should just accept them for the people they are?

No problem with anything you say, although in my opinion we all do accept each other for what we are, and the reason we debate here is because we are interested, and in some cases have a desire to disseminate fundamental truths, which of course works both ways.

As to science and faith having nothing to do with each other, it seems quite obvious that they have much to do with each other. Now if you said science and spirituality had nothing to do with each other, I would be more inclined to agree, but when you say "faith" there are certain specific connotation for most people, don't you think?

731 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:51:46pm

re: #725 NemoParticularis

Frankly, I'd love to read the paper contrasting Christianity and Communism. Is it available on your blogsite?

[Link: blog.myspace.com...]

732 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:54:44pm

re: #724 Naso Tang

Is this your opinion or a statement of known fact? And, how do you define existence (or non existence btw?)? Perhaps non existence, for example, is where the speed of an electron goes when one measures it's position?

The electron nevertheless exists Mr. Tang, by virtue of the fact that we are measuring its position, even if we cannot be sure of its speed.

If you like, we can tumble into Berkeley's mosh pit and debate the nature of existence till Decartes comes home. I don't think that will get us anywhere. And my response to the Berklians was always the same: if you really believe that existence is a function of perception, then how about letting me sneak up and give you a good cuff to the noggin in total darkness. That should disabuse you of such silliness.

it sure sounds like you think you have some pretty fundamental ones, even though you can't explain them.

Logic, Mr. Tang. That which is potent, mutable and bound by the constraints of space and time cannot create itself.

733 Kulhwch  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:55:23pm

Okay, quandry time ... lucked into this site by accident which seems to be the same as this site (at [Link: www.icr.org),...] while following up on something labeled as [Link: www.jews-for-allah.org...] ... which stemmed from the discussion at this site originally.

My quandry is the involvement of the ICR into this, but I can't read Hebrew, etc., so I have no idea what is going on in these links.  I'm tossing this out in case someone else is able to make heads or tails of it, and find it useful.

}:)     [Man, this rabble-rousing stuff is harder than it looks ... ]

734 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:56:05pm

re: #704 NemoParticularisby showing us that the existence of extraterrestrial sinners is rather more probable than earlier generations of Christians might've supposed, modern science presents today's Christians with a challenging question.

I very much agree, Mr. McGee.

Thank you for taking it in the right spirit, Nemo. As I said, the matter of whether intelligent lifeforms on other planets might need Salvation is simply a "challenging question" for Christians -- not an insurmountable problem or a logical disproof of Christianity. It's just a hypothetical problem for theology, though as you say, it's not a very pressing matter, and won't become one unless we discover empirical evidence for intelligent ETs.

Which, by the way, could come in the form of relics from an extinct civilization of one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple aliens whose sun went supernova long before there were humans on Earth. And if such relics were ever discovered, Christians would then be intellectually obliged to wrestle with: "Was a one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple Jesus ever Crucified by a one-eyed, one-horned, flying purple Pontius Pilate, and Resurrected three planetary rotations later, while they and their planet still existed? Or did That Event only unfold the one time in the entire history of the Universe?"

Of course, this is just a whimsical way of asking: are WE really THE purpose for which God created a universe of fifty billion galaxies?

735 Jim D  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:56:21pm

re: #687 texasjihad

let me guess....there's only enough salt to explain a world that's 6000 years old or so

736 Throbert McGee  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:57:48pm

Ooops... I fudgesicled the quote tags in my response (#734) to NemoParticularis. Damn this cheap but tasty California port!

737 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 6:58:22pm

re: #726 Salamantis


Right now, scientists have not found enough matter/energy in the Universe to allow gravity to overcome expansion in this manner, but all dark matter/dark energy in the Universe is not yet accounted for.

I'm sure you are aware that that whatever dark matter has or has not been accounted for, the net result is that the universe is accelerating its expansion, in what could be a reawakening of that buggaboo of creationists, called inflation.

Perhaps it could slow and reverse eventually for reasons yet unknown, but on present knowledge it would seem that 40 billion years is but a blip on the likely timescales involved.

738 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:00:22pm

re: #726 Salamantis

There is another, grander, more elegant, poetic, and (at least to me) beautiful cosmology. A cyclical cosmology. More than a billion Hindus currently embrace it...Some might even consider such a Universe to be a living God.

A fascinating and, if I may say so, scientifically poetic image.

Unfortunately, it fails the causality test. The know physical universe is just that: physical. Neither matter nor energy can create themselves.

This grand hyperspheric heart could not, out of logical consistency, be its own cause.

739 Purple Prose  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:03:17pm
Robert T. Bakker: Legend of Paleontology
...
Bakker sees little conflict between religion and science. A Pentecostal preacher, he says scientists and creationists alike would do well to read Augustine, the fifth century scholar and source of much of the Christian tradition and belief. In addition to studying textual revelation, Augustine sought to interpret the scriptures in light of natural revelation. “And after reading Genesis and thinking about it he came up with the conclusion that the story in Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 was not a simple historical sequence of events. It just couldn't be. It's not what the words meant. It just wasn't.”

[Link: www.prehistoricplanet.com...]

740 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:04:06pm

re: #732 NemoParticularis

Is this your opinion or a statement of known fact? And, how do you define existence (or non existence btw?)? Perhaps non existence, for example, is where the speed of an electron goes when one measures it's position?

The electron nevertheless exists Mr. Tang, by virtue of the fact that we are measuring its position, even if we cannot be sure of its speed.

If you like, we can tumble into Berkeley's mosh pit and debate the nature of existence till Decartes comes home. I don't think that will get us anywhere. And my response to the Berklians was always the same: if you really believe that existence is a function of perception, then how about letting me sneak up and give you a good cuff to the noggin in total darkness. That should disabuse you of such silliness.

Interestingly enough, when you plot such a measurement function (more precise position + less precise momentum and vice/versa), it comes out as a parabola, and the most aggregate information is gained at the base of the parabola, where both momentum and position are measured 'equally'. I have often wondered what determines the existence and placement of this 'equally', and what the ramifications of its existence and placement are for measurement limits and universal parameters as a whole.

it sure sounds like you think you have some pretty fundamental ones, even though you can't explain them.

Logic, Mr. Tang. That which is potent, mutable and bound by the constraints of space and time cannot create itself.

But matter/energy creates matter/energy via gravitation. There is no more a before or an after the universe than there can be an outside of it. The Universe is, after all, All That Is, by definition. How can that (the Universe) which is the cause and source of X (spacetime) be itself bound by it? It would instead seem to be its binder. You might want to rethink this statement; I detect the scent of non sequiter wafting from it.

741 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:04:13pm

re: #734 Throbert McGee

Of course, this is just a whimsical way of asking: are WE really THE purpose for which God created a universe of fifty billion galaxies?

Perhaps. Perhaps not. And the delicious conversation that ensues makes me very happy to have had the good fortune to visit the LGF site when Charles signalled an incubation period for new Lizards. I have new friends here and you all are a delight - even the trolls.

742 freetoken  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:04:50pm

re: #734 Throbert McGee


Of course, this is just a whimsical way of asking: are WE really THE purpose for which God created a universe of fifty billion galaxies?

The great anthropocentric theological debate...

It can be restated using our own planet, though, without resorting to hypothetical other planets. E.g., now that we know there were humans other than the modern (language inventing, abstract thinking) homo sapiens, how far back does "sin" stretch? Were neanderthals "sinners"?

743 DesertSage  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:05:58pm

re: #730 Naso Tang

As to science and faith having nothing to do with each other, it seems quite obvious that they have much to do with each other. Now if you said science and spirituality had nothing to do with each other, I would be more inclined to agree, but when you say "faith" there are certain specific connotation for most people, don't you think?

True, I used 'faith' in the context of spirituality. If 'faith' is used in the context of the people who are religious and who want their brand of faith taught in public school as 'ID', then we're in agreement.

There are also a small but growing contingent of people on the other side who already teach in public schools...who would like nothing more than to use science as a way to disprove the existence of God. I've had personal experience with such a person. This person was asked not to come back and teach at the district the following year, and rightly so. But he's out there somewhere, probably teaching at another school.

744 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:06:56pm

But matter/energy creates matter/energy via gravitation.

Umm...I meant to say that matter/energy creates spacetime via gravitation.

745 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:09:52pm

re: #736 Throbert McGee

Ooops... I fudgesicled the quote tags in my response (#734) to NemoParticularis. Damn this cheap but tasty California port!

My dear sir, that most certainly and inarguably is NOT Port wine - not if it comes from California (gag). That would be like drinking California Scotch. Good grief, man, have some self-respect. Pour that swill down the toilet where it belongs.

Hie thee hence to a reputable dealer of potent potables and purchase a Portuguese Port. Look for Cockburn - it's not terribly expensive. The only true Port wine in the world comes from Portugal - accept nothing less. Hell, I'd bring you a bottle now if I could.

746 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:10:56pm

re: #732 NemoParticularis


The electron nevertheless exists Mr. Tang, by virtue of the fact that we are measuring its position, even if we cannot be sure of its speed.

But we can be sure of its speed, just not where it is.

if you really believe that existence is a function of perception, then how about letting me sneak up and give you a good cuff to the noggin in total darkness. That should disabuse you of such silliness.

What's that called? Solipsism? No, that's not what I meant, and I realize I can't prove what no one else has, without invoking faith. The latter sounds however what you seem to propose in some of your statements.

As a simple example of existence, does 2 + 2 still equal 4 even if there is nothing to count?


Logic, Mr. Tang. That which is potent, mutable and bound by the constraints of space and time cannot create itself.

Didn't we meet in a movie somewhere? I feel we have something in common....just not sure what. :)

Which space and which time are you referring to? You are sure there is only this one? How do you know that another is not where that pesky electron is when you are measuring its speed?

747 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:11:37pm

re: #737 Naso Tang

I'm sure you are aware that that whatever dark matter has or has not been accounted for, the net result is that the universe is accelerating its expansion, in what could be a reawakening of that buggaboo of creationists, called inflation.

Perhaps it could slow and reverse eventually for reasons yet unknown, but on present knowledge it would seem that 40 billion years is but a blip on the likely timescales involved.

One does wonder what is happening, or even whether the instruments are functioning properly. It would seem that universal gravitation (everything pulling everything else closer together) would logically entail a uniform deceleration of the expansion speed coefficient.

748 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:11:49pm

re: #742 freetoken

Were neanderthals "sinners"?

Ask my brother-in-law. (nyuk, nyuk, nyuk)

749 Jim D  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:12:48pm

re: #726 Salamantis

There is another, grander, more elegant, poetic, and (at least to me) beautiful cosmology. A cyclical cosmology. More than a billion Hindus currently embrace it.

Imagine that the Universe has always existed, and always will, and that it resembles a hyperspheric heart that beats once every 40 billion years, collapsing into near nothingness and expanding to practical infinity. Each Big Bang would be simultaneously the Big Crunch of the beat before, and each Big Crunch would simultaneously be the Big Bang of the beat afterwards. Some might even consider such a Universe to be a living God.

Right now, scientists have not found enough matter/energy in the Universe to allow gravity to overcome expansion in this manner, but all dark matter/dark energy in the Universe is not yet accounted for.

Actually this simply type of cyclic model doesn't get rid of the 'big bang'. Increasing entropy makes the length of each successive cycle become longer and longer. So if you look back into the past, they get shorter and shorter so you end up with up the big bang again.
With the dark energy accelerating the expansion rate of the universe, this simple view of contraction and expansion is kind of invalidated anyway.

However, Paul Steinhardt at Princeton proposed a new type of cyclic model a few years ago involving colliding branes (eg 4 dimensional surfaces interacting in a 5 dim. universe) that solves this problem and also happens nicely incorporates the dark energy.

I always thought it was a cool model, but there seemed to be a lot of resistance to it at the time.

750 Thanos  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:14:35pm

re: #733 Kulhwch

Okay, quandry time ... lucked into this site by accident which seems to be the same as this site (at [Link: www.icr.org),...] while following up on something labeled as [Link: www.jews-for-allah.org...] ... which stemmed from the discussion at this site originally.

My quandry is the involvement of the ICR into this, but I can't read Hebrew, etc., so I have no idea what is going on in these links.  I'm tossing this out in case someone else is able to make heads or tails of it, and find it useful.

}:)     [Man, this rabble-rousing stuff is harder than it looks ... ]


Is there a babelfish like tool for Hebrew?

751 Jim D  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:16:22pm

re: #737 Naso Tang

I'm sure you are aware that that whatever dark matter has or has not been accounted for, the net result is that the universe is accelerating its expansion, in what could be a reawakening of that buggaboo of creationists, called inflation.

Perhaps it could slow and reverse eventually for reasons yet unknown, but on present knowledge it would seem that 40 billion years is but a blip on the likely timescales involved.

Actually, any sort of matter, be it the ordinary stuff we are made of or the exotic stuff we only indirectly know of, will cause the expansion rate of the universe to decrease over time. It's the dark energy which is driving the accelerated expansion rate.

752 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:17:52pm

re: #749 Jim D

Actually this simply type of cyclic model doesn't get rid of the 'big bang'. Increasing entropy makes the length of each successive cycle become longer and longer. So if you look back into the past, they get shorter and shorter so you end up with up the big bang again.

With the dark energy accelerating the expansion rate of the universe, this simple view of contraction and expansion is kind of invalidated anyway.

Hmmm...that seems counterintuitive...if anything, I would expect successive cycles to become shorter in duration, as a pendulum in a vacuum gradually encompasses less and less of a span when pulled upon by gravity. It's just that, in the case of the Universe, the gravitational source would be in the center, rather than outside.

blockquote>However, Paul Steinhardt at Princeton proposed a new type of cyclic model a few years ago involving colliding branes (eg 4 dimensional surfaces interacting in a 5 dim. universe) that solves this problem and also happens nicely incorporates the dark energy.

I always thought it was a cool model, but there seemed to be a lot of resistance to it at the time.

Linky?

753 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:18:08pm

re: #746 Naso Tang

Didn't we meet in a movie somewhere? I feel we have something in common....just not sure what. :)

We met on the set of Casablanca, as extras in the now famous casino scene where Rick lets the Romanian rube win at roulette so that his wife doesn't have to shag inspector Renault to get exit visas. You are a reasonable, intelligent, articulate person with a sense of humor. There aren't many of us left.

Which space and which time are you referring to?

The one we currently inhabit. If we could perceive and subsequently measure any other then we would be inhabiting that one as well.

You are sure there is only this one? How do you know that another is not where that pesky electron is when you are measuring its speed?

Shall I cuff you in the head now or wait till after midnite?

754 freetoken  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:18:56pm

re: #747 Salamantis

One does wonder what is happening, or even whether the instruments are functioning properly. It would seem that universal gravitation (everything pulling everything else closer together) would logically entail a uniform deceleration of the expansion speed coefficient.

Once again I'd like to point people who are interested in these fundamental physics issues to the Perimeter Institutes public lecture series online videos. Recommend the March 2008 presentation by Turok.

755 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:18:56pm

re: #751 Jim D

I believe that is correct, although I don't think it is yet understood how that works, only that the effect is measurable.

756 Jim D  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:19:15pm

re: #737 Naso Tang

Oh..and if I recall correctly, in the newer cyclic models the expand-contract timescales are in the tens of trillions of years.

757 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:20:37pm

re: #753 NemoParticularis

Midnight is my bedtime. Have at it when you see an opening.

758 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:22:28pm

re: #731 Salamantis

[Link: blog.myspace.com...]

Thank you, Mr. Salamantis. I shall save it to my hard drive and read it at my leisure, accompanied by a glass of REAL Port wine and, perhaps a little wedge of Stilton cheese.

759 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:23:03pm

re: #757 Naso Tang

Midnight is my bedtime. Have at it when you see an opening.

That comment seems vaguely homoerotic, and might be more profitably directed at Throbert McGee...;~)

760 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:24:48pm

re: #757 Naso Tang

Midnight is my bedtime. Have at it when you see an opening.

Mine too. But I enjoy your company too much to cuff you in the head. Besides, it's more fun to do that to hippies and moonbats.

761 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:29:46pm

re: #759 Salamantis

That comment seems vaguely homoerotic, and might be more profitably directed at Throbert McGee...;~)

Reminds me of the story (apocryphal, I suppose) about Queen Victoria who, upon reading a newspaper account of a battle during the Boer War, happened upon a quote from one the British troopers wherein the fellow shouted "Let's kill the buggers!"

Her majesty inquired about the definition of a "bugger."

An alert and astute counselor explained, "A bugger, Your Majesty, is a man who does another man a great injustice behind his back."

762 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:30:22pm

re: #754 freetoken

Once again I'd like to point people who are interested in these fundamental physics issues to the Perimeter Institutes public lecture series online videos. Recommend the March 2008 presentation by Turok.

Yummy link; thanxabunch! But I already know the answer to the question What Bangs...

763 Jim D  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:33:05pm

re: #752 Salamantis
This seems to adequately summarize the recent work in cyclic models:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

764 Jim D  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:42:12pm

re: #752 Salamantis

Hmmm...that seems counterintuitive...if anything, I would expect successive cycles to become shorter in duration, as a pendulum in a vacuum gradually encompasses less and less of a span when pulled upon by gravity. It's just that, in the case of the Universe, the gravitational source would be in the center, rather than outside.

But there is no center of the universe and matter and energy, at least on the largest scales, are more or less distributed uniformly. Expansion or contraction do not happen about a point, they happen everywhere.

765 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:46:24pm

re: #764 Jim D

But there is no center of the universe and matter and energy, at least on the largest scales, are more or less distributed uniformly. Expansion or contraction do not happen about a point, they happen everywhere.

This would have to entail that the Big Bang itself happened everywhere, rather than at any specific point, wouldn't it? I would have thought that the Universe has expanded out in all different directions from the location of that original rupture.

766 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:46:34pm

re: #764 Jim D

But there is no center of the universe and matter and energy, at least on the largest scales, are more or less distributed uniformly. Expansion or contraction do not happen about a point, they happen everywhere.

Interesting...very interesting.

767 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:48:23pm

re: #765 Salamantis

This would have to entail that the Big Bang itself happened everywhere, rather than at any specific point, wouldn't it? I would have thought that the Universe has expanded out in all different directions from the location of that original rupture.

A very good point, sir, one that begs an explanation. A "bang" assumes a point of origin. Did the entire universe just "appear"?

768 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:53:54pm

re: #767 NemoParticularis

A very good point, sir, one that begs an explanation. A "bang" assumes a point of origin. Did the entire universe just "appear"?

I don't see how a mere appearance everywhere at once would explain the extrememly high original temperature of the universe, or the fact of a major expansion. How could something that just appeared everywhere rather than at a specific point be said to have undergone hyperinflation shortly thereafter?

769 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:55:50pm

Now this, unlike what the creationists plague us with, is genuine scientific discussion...

770 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:57:40pm

re: #759 Salamantis

That comment seems vaguely homoerotic, and might be more profitably directed at Throbert McGee...;~)

LOL. I do wish we could edit, but I see you haven't had too much of that port yet.

771 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 7:58:57pm

re: #760 NemoParticularis

Mine too. But I enjoy your company too much to cuff you in the head. Besides, it's more fun to do that to hippies and moonbats.

And I'm relieved you didn't take Sal's meaning. Now, back to business..

772 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:01:41pm

re: #769 Salamantis

Now this, unlike what the creationists plague us with, is genuine scientific discussion...


I agree wholeheartedly, sir. I am as baffled by what Jim D has postulated as you are and am anxious to read his explanation.

773 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:03:59pm

re: #768 Salamantis

I don't see how a mere appearance everywhere at once would explain the extrememly high original temperature of the universe, or the fact of a major expansion. How could something that just appeared everywhere rather than at a specific point be said to have undergone hyperinflation shortly thereafter?

I concur. This explanation just doesn't follow, Jim D. Did the universe just appear 'everywhere' at a very high temperature and THEN start expanding? This makes no sense to me. Am I missing something?

774 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:10:24pm

re: #765 Salamantis

This would have to entail that the Big Bang itself happened everywhere, rather than at any specific point, wouldn't it? I would have thought that the Universe has expanded out in all different directions from the location of that original rupture.

A logical point, but if we can accept quantum mechanics as real, and it's not logical, then we should be able to accept that other aspects are not quite what they might seem either.

I don't have a good answer for you, but I can point out that what we call "the Universe" is the universe that we can see, out about 14 billion light years. There is no reason to assume one falls off the edge at that point, and the universe would still seem to be the same size from there, it's just that the light past 14 billion light years has not yet had time to reach us, and given the recent discovery of the accelleration, it never will.

There was a recent article in Astronomy, I think, that pointed out that a few billion years from now that accelleration will put most of the universe except our local galaxy or galaxy group out of view. In fact any beings evloving then will never have any evidence of the creation of the universe.

Faith will have its day then for sure.

775 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:11:05pm

Looking at the Neil Turok video on the Big Bang and M Theory here:

[Link: streamer.perimeterinstitute.ca...]

Q: What is the sound of two branes clapping?

A: Woah!

776 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:13:15pm

re: #774 Naso Tang

A logical point, but if we can accept quantum mechanics as real, and it's not logical, then we should be able to accept that other aspects are not quite what they might seem either.

I don't have a good answer for you, but I can point out that what we call "the Universe" is the universe that we can see, out about 14 billion light years. There is no reason to assume one falls off the edge at that point, and the universe would still seem to be the same size from there, it's just that the light past 14 billion light years has not yet had time to reach us, and given the recent discovery of the accelleration, it never will.

There was a recent article in Astronomy, I think, that pointed out that a few billion years from now that accelleration will put most of the universe except our local galaxy or galaxy group out of view. In fact any beings evloving then will never have any evidence of the creation of the universe.

Faith will have its day then for sure.

I don't think that this would affect the red-shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo; the Universe will still be able to be accurately dated from that.

777 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:18:41pm

A hypersphere is a strange kinda place.

Imagine being lost in the woods, trying to hike out. Then you become dismayed as you see once again a landmark that you passed hours ago. Obviously, you must be travelling in circles.

But in a hypersphere, you will eventually arrive at the place from where you first began even when you travel in the same direction long enough, and do not curve round. No circles; just straight lines.

That's how the Universe can be finite, yet unbounded.

778 Jim D  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:21:13pm

re: #765 Salamantis

This would have to entail that the Big Bang itself happened everywhere, rather than at any specific point, wouldn't it? I would have thought that the Universe has expanded out in all different directions from the location of that original rupture.

The whole bang thing is kind of misleading. There wasn't really an explosion. The universe was once just much hotter and denser and it has since expanded and cooled down.

I think people tend to take the whole singularity thing too seriously. In the standard cosmological model, the energy density becomes infinite eventually, but this is really isn't significant. It doesn't necessarily mean that the universe popped into existence and started expanding. It just means that the standard model is inappropriate for describing the very very early universe.

And before you even get to the singularity, the energy density of the universe gets to the point where general relativity breaks down. Since there isn't an theory that adequately incorporates general relativity and quantum mechanics, we can't really be certain about anything before that.

779 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:24:49pm

re: #778 Jim D

That's the difference I see between religion and science in a nutshell.

Religious Dogma: We don't know, so God must have done it.

Empirical Science: We don't know yet, but we're working on it.

780 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:28:36pm

Just to again throw in an obvious point,

If it is more than 6000 light years away and you see it, it is more than 6000 years old.

I have always been shocked that Evolution became the bugaboo of biblical literalism. Possibly it is because the simple astronomical argument is too simple to play many word games with. Evolution is complex and has lots of nooks and crannies to argue about. When I find ID troglodytes on campus, I point out the astronomical argument first.

Of course, it falls on deaf ears. They are simply unwilling to process the implications. There is a certain look that people get when they hear something they don't like, understand it and then refuse to accept it or think on it.

As to the notion that somehow creation or belief in a creator is destroyed by evolution, this makes no sense. If you believe in G-d, you believe He made the universe in a certain way. Does knowing some of the way He did it present so much of a problem?

I have said many times that the difference between religion and science is the difference between how and why. Science only answers how questions which are questions of process and questions of mechanism. Why is a matter of motive.

For example:

Q: How did he die?
A: Car Accident. To be more specific, the impact caused this that or the other trauma which a coroner can investigate scientifically and then tell you exactly how he died.

vs.

Q: Why did he die? Why now? Why him?
A: G-d knows.

Note: The atheist answer, "There is no reason" is still an answer to "why" and not how.

Provided that one remembers this and remembers that the two modes (religious thought vs. scientific thought) answer very different questions, it is easy to avoid conflict. Very directly, science is not equipped to answer "why" it does not try and it has no tools to even address that question. Religion does not have the framework of the scientific method. When it buts heads with science over questions of "how" it looses every time.

781 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:31:06pm

re: #774 Naso Tang

A logical point, but if we can accept quantum mechanics as real, and it's not logical, then we should be able to accept that other aspects are not quite what they might seem either.

I don't have a good answer for you, but I can point out that what we call "the Universe" is the universe that we can see, out about 14 billion light years. There is no reason to assume one falls off the edge at that point, and the universe would still seem to be the same size from there, it's just that the light past 14 billion light years has not yet had time to reach us, and given the recent discovery of the accelleration, it never will.

There was a recent article in Astronomy, I think, that pointed out that a few billion years from now that accelleration will put most of the universe except our local galaxy or galaxy group out of view. In fact any beings evloving then will never have any evidence of the creation of the universe.

Faith will have its day then for sure.

What is not logical about QM? It is counterintuitive, but it follows very well laid out axioms that are calculable. We do not take QM on faith at all. It is being rigorously tested right now. You are using a device that employs transistors.

782 Jim D  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:32:51pm

re: #768 Salamantis

I don't see how a mere appearance everywhere at once would explain the extrememly high original temperature of the universe, or the fact of a major expansion. How could something that just appeared everywhere rather than at a specific point be said to have undergone hyperinflation shortly thereafter?

We don't know if things just appeared or if things have always been. The standard big bang cosmology can't explain that.

783 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:38:02pm
784 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:38:16pm

re: #779 Salamantis

That's the difference I see between religion and science in a nutshell.
Religious Dogma: We don't know, so God must have done it.
Empirical Science: We don't know yet, but we're working on it.

One half of the nutshell, Mr. Salamantis. The other half contains the kernel of Nemo's outlook:

I don't know yet. Still working on it. In the meantime, until empirical science can explain how the universe could be the cause of its own existence, it pleases me to believe that God created it. And until such time as empirical science can prove otherwise, I shall persist in that belief - unscientific as it is.

785 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:41:05pm

re: #780 LudwigVanQuixote

Hear, hear! Well said, Mr. VanQ.

786 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:42:52pm

re: #781 LudwigVanQuixote

What is not logical about QM? It is counterintuitive, but it follows very well laid out axioms that are calculable. We do not take QM on faith at all. It is being rigorously tested right now. You are using a device that employs transistors.

My sentiment exactly, Mr. VanQ. You saved me the trouble of typing a response.

787 Jim D  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:43:15pm

re: #779 Salamantis

damn straight

788 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:44:29pm

re: #776 Salamantis

I don't think that this would affect the red-shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo; the Universe will still be able to be accurately dated from that.

I'm going to minimize my openings here (!), but the red shift will meaningless at that point because there will be nothing to suggest what it is shifted from. There will be no light sources (electromagnetic that is) visible beyond our local gravity well, and that will apply to photons from the big bang as well.

789 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:46:56pm

re: #781 LudwigVanQuixote

What is not logical about QM? It is counterintuitive, but it follows very well laid out axioms that are calculable. We do not take QM on faith at all. It is being rigorously tested right now. You are using a device that employs transistors.

Quite right, but I was making comparative references to arguments that are based on intuition, when as we know, not all is intuitive.

790 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:47:04pm

re: #788 Naso Tang

I'm going to minimize my openings here (!), but the red shift will meaningless at that point because there will be nothing to suggest what it is shifted from. There will be no light sources (electromagnetic that is) visible beyond our local gravity well, and that will apply to photons from the big bang as well.

Hmmm...that's strange...I was under the impression that the Big Bang echo radiation permeates the entire universe, and is perhaps the only part of the universe that is spatiotemporally coextensive with the whole.

791 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:47:48pm

re: #782 Jim D

We don't know if things just appeared or if things have always been. The standard big bang cosmology can't explain that.

Whether they appeared suddenly or have always been leaves us with the nagging question: whence came their existence? Unfortunately, science cannot answer this question.

792 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:48:04pm

re: #786 NemoParticularis

My sentiment exactly, Mr. VanQ. You saved me the trouble of typing a response.

Hah. Good thing you didn't...

793 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:50:12pm

re: #790 Salamantis

Hmmm...that's strange...I was under the impression that the Big Bang echo radiation permeates the entire universe, and is perhaps the only part of the universe that is spatiotemporally coextensive with the whole.

The so-called "background noise" left over from the Big Bang. I was wondering the same thing. Mr. Tang? Any thoughts?

794 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:50:51pm

re: #792 Naso Tang

Hah. Good thing you didn't...

You wound me, sir.

795 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:51:55pm

re: #790 Salamantis

Hmmm...that's strange...I was under the impression that the Big Bang echo radiation permeates the entire universe, and is perhaps the only part of the universe that is spatiotemporally coextensive with the whole.

It does, but the point is that when the inflationary acceleration exceeds the speed of light again, as it is suggested it will, then even that will not reach us if not already trapped in our local galactic gravity well. We will see our galaxy, or a few local ones all slowly merging (as we will with Andromeda in a few billion years). Everything else will be black as black can be.

796 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:52:09pm

re: #791 NemoParticularis

Whether they appeared suddenly or have always been leaves us with the nagging question: whence came their existence? Unfortunately, science cannot answer this question.

Yet. But they're working on it. Which, in my opinion, is far better than throwing up one's hands, declaring that God Did It, and that therefore there is no reason to continue to work on it any longer, because there will be nothing more that we will be able to discover concerning it.

Assumptions like that have historically tended to render their assumers into asses, when more is subsequently discovered.

797 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:53:47pm

re: #795 Naso Tang

It does, but the point is that when the inflationary acceleration exceeds the speed of light again, as it is suggested it will, then even that will not reach us if not already trapped in our local galactic gravity well. We will see our galaxy, or a few local ones all slowly merging (as we will with Andromeda in a few billion years). Everything else will be black as black can be.

I have questions concerning this whole 'inflationary acceleration exceeding lightspeed' thingie...

798 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:54:20pm

re: #791 NemoParticularis

Whether they appeared suddenly or have always been leaves us with the nagging question: whence came their existence? Unfortunately, science cannot answer this question.

Yet.

However the question we tend to argue most about is not really whence but why.

799 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:54:25pm

re: #715 NemoParticularis

And then who created this God? And if it is not necessary for God to be created, why is it necessary for the Universe to be created? Instead of just happening as a result of a random quantum fluctuation?

Random quantum fluctuation can occur only in that which already exists, Mr. Salamantis, and does not explain how that which exists came into existence.

As for your first question, it follows logically that the source of all existence cannot itself be subject to, or limited by, the constraints of material existence and therefore cannot itself have been created, otherwise we will be arguing turtles all the way down. Rather than shunning Occam's Razor, I am employing it with logical efficiency: there is an explanatory entity necessary for the existence of the universe, since the physical universe cannot create itself. Call it what you will: the Prime Mover, the First Cause, whatever. I call it God.

Respectfully, your first cause could simply be the rules themselves. Please note, I am a believer, but the argument you make runs into a big problem with Quantum Field Theory.

QFT is built on the framework of a space (space in this case in the mathematical sense, specifically a Fock Space) of creation/annihilation operators. The theory quite literally predicts a continuous flux of creations ex-nihilo. We have observed the effect. It is real.

In fact, QED, Quantum Electro-Dynamics, the field theory that describes the quantized electromagnetic field, is the most successful theory in human history. Success measured by the accuracy of the predictions. To look at just how mid-bogglingly successful it is look at the measurements of the fine structure constant by use of the hyperfine splitting.

You might find this very interesting to look into.

800 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:54:39pm

Man, this discussion has strayed far far away from dino bones!

801 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:55:00pm

re: #795 Naso Tang

It does, but the point is that when the inflationary acceleration exceeds the speed of light again, as it is suggested it will, then even that will not reach us if not already trapped in our local galactic gravity well. We will see our galaxy, or a few local ones all slowly merging (as we will with Andromeda in a few billion years). Everything else will be black as black can be.

Forgive this layman's ignorance: how can inflationary acceleration exceed the speed of light? It is my understanding that any object attempting to achieve the speed of light will, at the critical moment, have attained infinite mass, therefore requiring infinite energy.

802 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:57:00pm

re: #798 Naso Tang

However the question we tend to argue most about is not really whence but why.

I'm more interested in 'how'...that's the type of question that science has been intelligently designed to answer.

803 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:57:07pm

re: #800 Salamantis

Man, this discussion has strayed far far away from dino bones!

Yes. Is is not delightful, though? The only thing missing is the atmosphere: a roaring fireplace in a Victorian parlor, smoking jackets, Cuban cigars and a damned fine brandy.

804 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:58:15pm

re: #797 Salamantis

I have questions concerning this whole 'inflationary acceleration exceeding lightspeed' thingie...

I was wrong earlier. This one was in SciAm

[Link: www.sciam.com...]

805 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:59:14pm

re: #799 LudwigVanQuixote

Respectfully, your first cause could simply be the rules themselves. Please note, I am a believer, but the argument you make runs into a big problem with Quantum Field Theory.

QFT is built on the framework of a space (space in this case in the mathematical sense, specifically a Fock Space) of creation/annihilation operators. The theory quite literally predicts a continuous flux of creations ex-nihilo. We have observed the effect. It is real.

In fact, QED, Quantum Electro-Dynamics, the field theory that describes the quantized electromagnetic field, is the most successful theory in human history. Success measured by the accuracy of the predictions. To look at just how mid-bogglingly successful it is look at the measurements of the fine structure constant by use of the hyperfine splitting.

You might find this very interesting to look into.

Quantum chromodynamics is waay-kewl-dewde, too...

806 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:59:22pm

re: #801 NemoParticularis

Forgive this layman's ignorance: how can inflationary acceleration exceed the speed of light? It is my understanding that any object attempting to achieve the speed of light will, at the critical moment, have attained infinite mass, therefore requiring infinite energy.

It is not mass that is accelerating. It is the expansion of space.

If you ask me to explain more than that, I will box your ears.

807 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 8:59:29pm

re: #796 Salamantis

Yet. But they're working on it. Which, in my opinion, is far better than throwing up one's hands, declaring that God Did It, and that therefore there is no reason to continue to work on it any longer, because there will be nothing more that we will be able to discover concerning it. Assumptions like that have historically tended to render their assumers into asses, when more is subsequently discovered.

Which is why, therefore, I'm delighted to part company from the dogmatists. The truth is the truth, Mr. Salamantis, and I seek it always.

808 freetoken  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:01:40pm

re: #800 Salamantis

Man, this discussion has strayed far far away from dino bones!

Seems all of us left here are Physics nerds. The ID/YEC folk are still over on the "creation museum" thread.

809 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:02:11pm

re: #806 Naso Tang

It is not mass that is accelerating. It is the expansion of space. If you ask me to explain more than that, I will box your ears.

*adjusting chin strap on football helmet*

Unless we are embracing the belief that space=ether, it looks like you got some 'splaining to do. YOU opened the door, Mr. Tang. Now walk through it.

810 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:03:41pm

re: #799 LudwigVanQuixote

Respectfully, your first cause could simply be the rules themselves.

Which of course is a convenient fallback to what some call God (Note, I mean no sarcasm here), but it sure feels like it is the right answer, or direction.

811 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:05:43pm

re: #810 Naso Tang

Which of course is a convenient fallback to what some call God (Note, I mean no sarcasm here), but it sure feels like it is the right answer, or direction.

Not sure I agree, Mr. Tang. How can the rules themselves be the first cause when they are the principles governing that whioch already exists? Unless, of course, we are discussing some other set of rules.

812 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:06:11pm

re: #809 NemoParticularis

I posted this above, but it is the basis of what I was saying.

The end of cosmology

813 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:06:28pm

re: #810 Naso Tang

re: #799 LudwigVanQuixote

Respectfully, your first cause could simply be the rules themselves.

NT: Which of course is a convenient fallback to what some call God (Note, I mean no sarcasm here), but it sure feels like it is the right answer, or direction.

Buddhists call it the Dharma; Taoists call it the Tao. But neither of them call it either willful or self-consciously aware.

814 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:09:59pm

People make a mistake when they assume that there must be a First Cause that is singular, and upon which all else depends. It could very well be the case that, instead, an interlocking, interconnected Gestalt of rules and laws emerged, each of them interdependent upon the others, coextensive with the gelling of the Universe into a distinctive structure.

815 Naso Tang  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:10:37pm

It is now 10 minutes past my midnight bedtime over here in hot and humid Florida, so I bid you gentlemen (ladies?) goodnight.

816 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:11:54pm

re: #803 NemoParticularis

Yes. Is is not delightful, though? The only thing missing is the atmosphere: a roaring fireplace in a Victorian parlor, smoking jackets, Cuban cigars and a damned fine brandy.

That is charming!

Question: have a nip of the 16 yr Lagavulin, or the cask strength Nadurra Glen Livet 18?

And I love being a physicist!

817 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:12:01pm

re: #812 Naso Tang

I posted this above, but it is the basis of what I was saying. The end of cosmology

Mr. Tang, this is the equivalent of interrupting our delightful parlor discussion by handing me a scientific paper and asking me to retire to my quarters to peruse it. While I will certainly be happy to read the article tomorrow - after I tackle Mr. Salamantis' treatise - it is past midnite. Kindly precis the argument, sir.

818 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:12:37pm

re: #816 LudwigVanQuixote

That is charming!

Question: have a nip of the 16 yr Lagavulin, or the cask strength Nadurra Glen Livet 18?

And I love being a physicist!

Being a philosopher is a lotta fun, too!

819 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:12:54pm

re: #810 Naso Tang

Which of course is a convenient fallback to what some call God (Note, I mean no sarcasm here), but it sure feels like it is the right answer, or direction.

I believe G-d made the rules. I was splitting a hair in the first cause argument though.

820 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:13:15pm

re: #814 Salamantis

People make a mistake when they assume that there must be a First Cause that is singular, and upon which all else depends. It could very well be the case that, instead, an interlocking, interconnected Gestalt of rules and laws emerged, each of them interdependent upon the others, coextensive with the gelling of the Universe into a distinctive structure.

But one of them would have to have occurred first, no?

821 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:14:03pm

re: #815 Naso Tang

It is now 10 minutes past my midnight bedtime over here in hot and humid Florida, so I bid you gentlemen (ladies?) goodnight.

Good nite, Mr. Tang. Sleep well and have pleasant dreams.

822 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:14:55pm

re: #805 Salamantis

Quantum chromodynamics is waay-kewl-dewde, too...

You non-Abelian Langrange Monkey! :)

823 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:15:52pm

re: #822 LudwigVanQuixote

You non-Abelian Langrange Monkey! :)

Lagrange... It's late...

824 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:17:09pm

re: #816 LudwigVanQuixote

That is charming!

Thank you, sir. My speciality is writing fiction.

Question: have a nip of the 16 yr Lagavulin, or the cask strength Nadurra Glen Livet 18?

No, although I once sampled a one-hundred year old single malt. It was the closest thing to liquid sex I ever encountered.

825 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:19:21pm

re: #823 LudwigVanQuixote

Lagrange... It's late...

Isn't that a point somewhere near Jupiter's moon Io?

826 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:20:57pm

re: #814 Salamantis

People make a mistake when they assume that there must be a First Cause that is singular, and upon which all else depends. It could very well be the case that, instead, an interlocking, interconnected Gestalt of rules and laws emerged, each of them interdependent upon the others, coextensive with the gelling of the Universe into a distinctive structure.

NP: But one of them would have to have occurred first, no?

No, it wouldn't. And that's the whole point. When you see something (the structure of visual experience), can you say that seeing, the seer, or the seen is primary, or that any of them could exist without the others? No, you can't; the structure of visual experience is like a three-legged stool. Remove any of its legs, and the entire system topples over. And there are many such systems. Perhaps what initially emerged is just such a system, comprised of co-primordial and mutually grounding components.

827 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:24:27pm

re: #824 NemoParticularis

That is charming!

Thank you, sir. My speciality is writing fiction.

Question: have a nip of the 16 yr Lagavulin, or the cask strength Nadurra Glen Livet 18?

No, although I once sampled a one-hundred year old single malt. It was the closest thing to liquid sex I ever encountered.

I bet it was.... I was seriously asking though... I have two bottles begging for some affection, which would you choose? Also, what kind of fiction do you write?

828 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:27:14pm

No, it wouldn't. And that's the whole point. When you see something (the structure of visual experience), can you say that seeing, the seer, or the seen is primary, or that any of them could exist without the others? No, you can't; the structure of visual experience is like a three-legged stool. Remove any of its legs, and the entire system topples over.

I disagree. I do not now see the planet Jupiter, yet it exists.

And there are many such systems. Perhaps what initially emerged is just such a system, comprised of co-primordial and mutually grounding components.

Shall I conclude, therefore, that this system brought itself into existence? Since this system is the foundation of the material universe, it would seem you are asking me to accept the premise that the material universe is the cause of its own existence.

829 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:28:30pm

re: #825 NemoParticularis

Isn't that a point somewhere near Jupiter's moon Io?

There are Lagrange points that have to do with orbits and balancing out gravity, but I was referring to something different and being a smart-ass.

I was talking about the fact that the QCD Lagrangian is non-Abelian. A Lagrangian is a powerful mathematical formulation of physics. Non-Abelian means that certain things do not commute. The problem with QCD, why it is so hard to calculate, is that it's Lagrangian is non-Abelian.

830 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:32:08pm

re: #827 LudwigVanQuixote

I bet it was.... I was seriously asking though... I have two bottles begging for some affection, which would you choose? Also, what kind of fiction do you write?

I regret, sir, that my expertise in fine Scotch only marginally exceeds my expertise in physics - which is to say that I am a dilettante to both. As I am familiar with Glen Livet, I suppose I would be inclined to choose it.

As for the fiction I write, it varies remarkably, from a steampunk sequel to a Jules Verne classic to a modern day thriller that asks the question: what if vampires actually evolved as a companion species to Homo sapiens?

Hopefully, both will become best sellers.

831 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:33:46pm

re: #829 LudwigVanQuixote

I was talking about the fact that the QCD Lagrangian is non-Abelian. A Lagrangian is a powerful mathematical formulation of physics. Non-Abelian means that certain things do not commute. The problem with QCD, why it is so hard to calculate, is that it's Lagrangian is non-Abelian.

*eyes glazing over*

Dammit, Jim...I'm a novelist, not a mathematician!

832 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:46:44pm

re: #830 NemoParticularis

I regret, sir, that my expertise in fine Scotch only marginally exceeds my expertise in physics - which is to say that I am a dilettante to both. As I am familiar with Glen Livet, I suppose I would be inclined to choose it.

As for the fiction I write, it varies remarkably, from a steampunk sequel to a Jules Verne classic to a modern day thriller that asks the question: what if vampires actually evolved as a companion species to Homo sapiens?

Hopefully, both will become best sellers.

Both super cool ideas. I like both genres very much. I assure you of two sales. Right now, I must confess, my leisure reading has peeled off into space opera. I'm reading things like Steven Baxter and all the Lost Fleet series.

833 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:47:22pm

re: #831 NemoParticularis

*eyes glazing over*

Dammit, Jim...I'm a novelist, not a mathematician!

That is what the scotch is for!

834 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:54:47pm

re: #832 LudwigVanQuixote

Both super cool ideas. I like both genres very much. I assure you of two sales. Right now, I must confess, my leisure reading has peeled off into space opera. I'm reading things like Steven Baxter and all the Lost Fleet series.

I'm delighted that you recognized 'steampunk.' So few people do. I actually designed a Nautilus (Nautilus II, actually) - complete with deck plans and a schematic for the engine, which I initially perceived as a Tesla turbine powered by the steam created by reacting concentrated hydrogen peroxide and water on a heated platinum matrix. The story takes place in the early 1880's - nearly 20 years after the conclusion of the novel.

As for the vampire piece (they hate that moniker, by the way, and prefer to designate themselves as Nocturnals) it relies heavily upon evolutionary science to explain their existence. In my not so humble opinion, I think I do them justice as a species. And yet, even they have their own version of Genesis to explain how they fit into the Biblical perception of creation. All in all, a fascinating story - one that will take three books to tell.

835 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 9:56:08pm

re: #833 LudwigVanQuixote

That is what the scotch is for!

Wrong emphasis. Try this: That is what the Scotch is for!

836 NemoParticularis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 10:02:18pm

Well, gentlemen, the time has come for me to bid adieu, stub out the cigar, finish off the brandy and shuffle off to bed. Thank you all for your time - I enjoyed this evening's conversation very much.

837 LudwigVanQuixote  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 10:04:47pm

re: #834 NemoParticularis

I'm delighted that you recognized 'steampunk.' So few people do. I actually designed a Nautilus (Nautilus II, actually) - complete with deck plans and a schematic for the engine, which I initially perceived as a Tesla turbine powered by the steam created by reacting concentrated hydrogen peroxide and water on a heated platinum matrix. The story takes place in the early 1880's - nearly 20 years after the conclusion of the novel.

As for the vampire piece (they hate that moniker, by the way, and prefer to designate themselves as Nocturnals) it relies heavily upon evolutionary science to explain their existence. In my not so humble opinion, I think I do them justice as a species. And yet, even they have their own version of Genesis to explain how they fit into the Biblical perception of creation. All in all, a fascinating story - one that will take three books to tell.

I will enjoy them!

838 Salamantis  Thu, Jul 24, 2008 11:57:44pm

re: #828 NemoParticularis

No, it wouldn't. And that's the whole point. When you see something (the structure of visual experience), can you say that seeing, the seer, or the seen is primary, or that any of them could exist without the others? No, you can't; the structure of visual experience is like a three-legged stool. Remove any of its legs, and the entire system topples over.

I disagree. I do not now see the planet Jupiter, yet it exists.

But the Yourself-Seeing-Jupiter system does not exist.

And there are many such systems. Perhaps what initially emerged is just such a system, comprised of co-primordial and mutually grounding components.

Shall I conclude, therefore, that this system brought itself into existence? Since this system is the foundation of the material universe, it would seem you are asking me to accept the premise that the material universe is the cause of its own existence.

An uncaused or self-causing Universe makes at least as much sense as does an uncaused or self-causing God, with the Occamite advantage of requiring one fewer explanatory entities.

839 maxiton  Fri, Jul 25, 2008 1:49:02am

Does Ross Geller was informed ?

840 Salem  Fri, Jul 25, 2008 2:01:23am

re: #631 calcajun

Silly. They ripped out their tongues. Heretics and apostates were burned.

If you want to be technical about it, they usually burned people just to steal their land. The labels were mostly a formality.

841 Annar  Fri, Jul 25, 2008 3:48:49am

re: #820 NemoParticularis

But one of them would have to have occurred first, no?

Not necessarily. For example, one might ask what, in an absolute sense, is the first point on a line or a circle.

842 Salamantis  Fri, Jul 25, 2008 4:25:39am

And where does a circle begin? Or a Moebius Strip? Or a Klein Bottle? Or a Tesseract? Or.........a Hypersphere?

843 SecondComing  Fri, Jul 25, 2008 11:30:00am

Charles, why do you hate Christians? /sarc

844 Salem  Fri, Jul 25, 2008 1:19:10pm

Again, just because someone strongly disapproves of Genesis being taught in science classrooms doesn't mean they hate Christians. Portraying this conviction as hatred toward Christians is simply a ruthless tactic being used by a few insidious characters who give Christians a bad name.

But then, you were just being sarcastic.

845 irish rose  Fri, Jul 25, 2008 1:38:20pm

Charles, just reading through this thread for the first time.

I'm so sorry that you have to put up with this shit.
Nobody deserves it less than you do.

846 Naso Tang  Fri, Jul 25, 2008 3:45:18pm

I come home after work and check to see if there's anything new and enlightening after much enlightenment last night and what do I see but what must be the worst attempt at an inside joke that's been posted this week.

Sheesh.


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