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Creationism on the Rise in Texas

Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 11:13:28 am PDT

The Texas State Board of Education has begun hearings on teaching the “weaknesses” of evolutionary science—which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design.”

And in a creepy real-life inversion of Ben Stein’s “Expelled,” the Texas Education Agency recently fired their Director of Science, Chris Comer, for forwarding an email announcing an anti-creationism seminar. Here’s a video presentation on the case:

Youtube Video

Andrea Grimes in the Austin Chronicle has a good piece on the rise of religious pseudoscience in Texas: Texas Fiction Science: The State Board of Education does its part to fantasize biology.

The first of several hearings on the science curricula updates occurred July 17 and 18, with this first meeting dedicated only to the delicate bureaucratic process of planning on how to plan those updates. According to SBOE chair and College Station dentist Dr. Don McLeroy, this year’s “battle is to bring in some of the weaknesses of evolution,” to ninth- and 10th-grade biology classrooms, retaining language requiring that teachers instruct students in the “strengths and weaknesses” of scientific theories. But according to the Texas Freedom Network, a statewide organization that works to mitigate the influence of fundamentalism on state policy, it’s really just one singular theory that gets the critical treatment.

“The only theory they attack is evolution,” said Dan Quinn, Texas Freedom Network’s communications director. Heliocentricity, gravitational theory, and atomic structure all get the SBOE thumbs-up. Indeed, despite clearly worded endorsements of evolution’s validity as scientific fact from the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the Science Teachers Association of Texas, and countless other scientific groups, McLeroy and six other conservative members of the 15-member SBOE remain unconvinced.

“I don’t think the evidence supports [evolution],” said McLeroy, a self-described creationist who believes that because “science is always trying to find problems with stuff,” evolution should not be presented as absolute fact. In McLeroy’s opinion, there are three major weaknesses of evolutionary theory that schoolchildren should be made aware of. He arrived at these conclusions by “reading everything [he] could get [his] hands on” and listening to podcasts.

First weakness: the fossil record. “There are gaps,” said McLeroy, that do not include enough transitional forms of life to support evolution. Second, McLeroy says there has simply not been enough time on Earth for the minute changes required by evolution to have taken place. Thirdly, McLeroy says the incredible complexity of cells proves divine design. Information contained in the genetic code is just too mind-blowing to have come from anywhere but an intelligent creator. “Where did this information come from?” McLeroy mused. McLeroy would like to see these assertions and more taught in Texas biology classrooms.

I asked University of Texas integrative biology professor David Hillis, a member of the National Academy of Sciences, about McLeroy’s list of “weaknesses.” In an e-mail exchange, Hillis said McLeroy was simply denying facts. “There is indeed a vast record of transitional fossils,” wrote Hillis, saying McLeroy’s fossil record claims are “completely at odds with the experts in the entire field of paleontology.”

As for McLeroy’s second assertion regarding length of time required for evolution to have taken place, Hillis wrote that the position “demonstrates an extraordinary ignorance of biology,” since rates of evolution observed in laboratory tests have been “more than sufficient” to prove natural rates of genetic change that coincide with the fossil record.

Finally, McLeroy’s cell-complexity argument does not even belong in a scientific discussion, wrote Hillis: “The argument that ‘It is too complicated, so God must have done it’ is not a scientific argument.”

And yet it appears that, all evidence to the contrary, evolution may still soon be taught in Texas as a weak theory. Since the SBOE has a near majority of anti-evolution members, the small problem of evolution actually being demonstrable scientific knowledge is only a political challenge to those who want schoolchildren taught otherwise.

Read the whole thing...

Also see:
More Stealth Creationism in Texas

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1105 comments

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1 rwmofo  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:16:23am

There's always private school ya know.

2 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:18:11am

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

3 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:19:12am

Wow.  Texas.

}:)     [Who'da thunk it?]

4 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:20:03am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

I hear armadillos are good eating.

}:)     [No need to explain it if you can eat it, I suppose.]

5 wvobiwan[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:20:31am
6 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:20:54am

re: #1 rwmofo

There's always private school ya know.

Home schooling, too.

}:)     [I'm beginning to feel more and more favorable about home schooling ... ]

7 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:21:39am

Charles, you're violating Rule #3 of The New Blogosphere:

3. You don't have the right to decide what to post on your own blog. The Committee of Whiney Commenters decides for you.

8 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:22:36am
He arrived at these conclusions by “reading everything [he] could get [his] hands on” and listening to podcasts.

Why do I get the feeling he didn't read everything he could get his hands on, but only that which supported his pre-existing creationist mindset?

9 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:22:45am

Talk about a fucking witch hunt.

}:)     [And I think I know something about witch hunts.  Immoral fuckers.]

10 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:23:21am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

Yes. Evolution can explain it.

Creationism can explain it as well.

Look at the evidence provided by both sides, and decide for yourself.

11 Syrah  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:23:38am

re: #8 Sharmuta

Why do I get the feeling he didn't read everything he could get his hands on, but only that which supported his pre-existing creationist mindset?

Because you are not as dumb as he takes you (and us) for.

12 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:24:08am

Okay, now we start the official countdown to the obligatory "Wah, wah, you're making fun of my faith, you heartless bastards" speech.

}:)     [Everybody pick a square on the poll sheet?  Everybody put their dollar in?]

13 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:25:32am

I hadn't heard of Chris Comer's story. Just out of curiousity, she said the whole thing started when she forwarded an e-mail about a "seminar". What was the seminar?

14 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:25:44am

Wow, wvobiwan, that was record time.  One minute I'm standing next to you, the next minute you're gone.  Charles moves in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform ...

}:)     [Hey, your shoes are still there.  They're smokin', but they're still there ... ]

15 wvobiwan[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:26:49am
16 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:26:53am

Charles:

Excellent entertainment for a Sunday morning.  IMNSHO, this beats church all hollow.  Thanks.

}:)     [But then, my worship is different.]

17 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:27:17am
18 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:27:46am

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

19 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:28:11am

The armadillo has the unfortunate habit of leaping straight up into the air when startled -- such as, when a car passes over one while it's crossing a road.

Can this be explained by Intelligent Design?

20 Charles  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:28:39am

Here are the details on why Chris Comer was forced to resign: Science Supervisor Chris Comer Sues Texas Education Agency.

Comer's offense was that she forwarded an email from NCSE's Glenn Branch announcing a talk by NCSE board member Dr. Barbara Forrest, co-author of Creationism's Trojan Horse, a critique of intelligent design creationism (see previous coverage here and here). Administrators reprimanded her for having informed her colleagues about the upcoming talk because it implied "that TEA endorses the speaker's position on a topic on which the agency must remain neutral."

21 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:29:06am

I wish more people would be aware, especially conservative Texans themselves, that Texas is a huge target for Marxist Socialist groups. Texas represents one of the biggest bastions of Conservative values and independent thinking left in the country and one of the few states that are left that considered real Red States. The liberals and the lawyers have descended upon the entire state to pacify it into Political Correctness and divide it ideologically. Texans and Americans by it's failure will pay a heavy price if their agenda is not brought out to the surface. This is not a conpiracy issue just a moth to the flame, Liberals are driven to suppress individualism and patriotism where ever it flourishes. The North Central States and the North East are already pacified.

22 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:29:17am

Dang, kulhwch... did a car with an ichthus run over your dog?

23 Charles  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:29:59am

Another meltdown. That's 3 so far this morning.

24 rwmofo  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:30:22am

re: #18 Wyatt Earp

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

With the infatuation that so many have for Paris Hilton and Lindsey Lohan, I wonder at times if evolution is on a bell curve.

25 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:30:24am

re: #21 Egfrow

Good point!

26 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:30:33am
27 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:30:34am

re: #18 Wyatt Earp

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

Survival of the fittest applies to mating habits, as well, if I understand correctly... so yes... yes it does. ;P

28 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:31:10am

Mmm... I'm for keeping religion out of the classroom. But I detect a strong whiff of horse hockey, in this video, for several reasons.

It smacks of a mediocre political play -- note the ridiculous 'punishment' of writing lines on the whiteboard -- and not-so-gracefully pirouettes around some key details. Like the actual email this woman sent about an 'anti-creation' lecture. Was it unprofessional or offensive in tone, for instance? Did she, a science teacher, reach beyond science to take a swipe at the purview of a religious studies class?

Questions. Even for the questioners.

29 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:31:22am

re: #20 Charles

Here are the details on why Chris Comer was forced to resign: Science Supervisor Chris Comer Sues Texas Education Agency.

My goodness. Since when does attending a seminar become a personal announcement of anything! I would think she has to win her suit. I certainly hope she does.

30 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:31:52am

re: #20 Charles

"... a topic on which the agency must remain neutral."

Charles, how many times can I paste "bullshit!" into a single comment before I get banned?

/s

31 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:32:15am

re: #26 buzzsawmonkey

The problem with Texas going creationist is that it practically guarantees the bulk of school districts in the rest of the country will be forced to deal with this.

Texas buys its schoolbooks on a statewide basis, making it one of the biggest markets in the country (that's what the Texas Book Depository, where Oswald hid to shoot JFK, is for). California is the other large national market.

Because Texas is such a big market, schoolbook preparers slant their books to what will be accepted in Texas and/or California. Thus, if Texas wants creationism, the rest of the country is going to get it whether it wants it or not.

Florida has the same problems. Luckily we all have Pennsylvania in our pocket.

32 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:32:35am

re: #17 buzzsawmonkey

Pornography can explain the armored dildo.

Oh, ow!  But does it have to?

}:P     [Rougher trade than I'm used to ... ]

33 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:32:50am
34 mj  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:33:22am

I've had the very unhappy experience of dealing with The Texas State Board of Education for years due to a number of textbooks I've wriiten.

The problem with The Texas State Board of Education is that they decide which books get used not only in Texas but accross the USA. If a publisher can't sell his books in Texas, which means being adopted by The Texas State Board of Education, then the publisher will force the author to revise it since Texas is too big a market to write-off.

35 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:33:53am

re: #33 buzzsawmonkey

"Is that Pennsylvania in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"

ROFL

36 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:34:10am

re: #28 Cognito


It smacks of a mediocre political play -- note the ridiculous 'punishment' of writing lines on the whiteboard -- and not-so-gracefully pirouettes around some key details


It's an homage to a scene from Ben Stein's Expelled.

37 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:34:25am

More problems with the TEA, from a July 10 Austin American-Statesman story:
'The future of the office tasked with rooting out problems at the Texas Education Agency is in question after two of the three remaining employees said they were fired.

An agency spokeswoman confirmed that at least two employees of its inspector general's office were placed on leave late last month, but she wouldn't say why. One of the employees said he was punished for complaining that he wasn't allowed to do his job.

"Every time an issue of fraud presented itself, we were not authorized to look into it," James Catazaro said.

For example, he said, top agency officials kept him and his colleagues from investigating allegations of possible kickbacks to a superintendent."
[Link: www.statesman.com...]

38 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:35:13am

Now my dog has to go out, just when I can get in on a thread that doesn't have 800 posts.... sigh....

39 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:35:23am

re: #21 Egfrow

I wish more people would be aware, especially conservative Texans themselves, that Texas is a huge target for Marxist Socialist groups. Texas represents one of the biggest bastions of Conservative values and independent thinking left in the country and one of the few states that are left that considered real Red States. The liberals and the lawyers have descended upon the entire state to pacify it into Political Correctness and divide it ideologically. Texans and Americans by it's failure will pay a heavy price if their agenda is not brought out to the surface. This is not a conpiracy issue just a moth to the flame, Liberals are driven to suppress individualism and patriotism where ever it flourishes. The North Central States and the North East are already pacified.

But it sounds like, with this case, Texans are being stupid.  And all on their own.  One can be conservative without rejecting science.

}:)     [You're not saying that evolution is a conspiracy against the Lone Star State, are you?]

40 Charles  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:35:35am

re: #28 Cognito

The whiteboard segment is a parody of Ben Stein's movie, which opens with him writing "Do not question Darwinism" on a blackboard.

41 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:36:22am

what gets me is that there are Christians out there who make THIS there number one issue in life. In the Grand Scheme of things, does the God they believe in really care all that much if they believe in the evidence that supports the theory of evolution or the claim that he created the universe in seven days? I recall growing up as a Catholic and pretty much being told that the meat and potatoes of getting into Heaven had more to do with having faith that Jesus was Lord/he was resurrected/his word is the ultimate truth/live my life like Jesus etc. etc. etc.

So, what does creation have to do with any of that?

42 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:36:59am

And I was just wondering to myself, self, why doesn't this ever seem to happen in a blue state?

}:)     [This keeps up, everyone's going to assume we conservatives are prone to this sort of thing.]

43 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:22am

re: #28 Cognito

Did she, a science teacher, reach beyond science to take a swipe at the purview of a religious studies class?


No, Creationism's Trojan Horse is not a critique of what is taught in religious studies classes. It's a critique of the Wedge strategy to inset creationism into science class.

44 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:28am

re: #36 Killgore Trout

It's an homage to a scene from Ben Stein's Expelled.

It's lame in every direction.

45 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:32am

re: #27 BlueFalcon

Well crafted. Mmm . . . Jessica Simpson!

46 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:32am

Maybe I'm wierd. I grew up in a solid-liberal county in Wisconsin, and I heard all manner of things in school I didn't believe (mostly to do with politics). Maybe this has hardened my shell a bit: see... I don't really care whether what they teach in school is factual or not. I think parents ought to be closely supervising their child's education. Something more interactive than reading a report card.

I don't believe in "young-earth" creationism. I don't think dinosaurs roamed with people. Ever. I also think old-earth creationism is compatible with both the big-bang theory (if you read Genesis intelligently) and macro-evolution.

HOWEVER... it doesn't kill me that people are teaching wonky stuff in biology. Because I know for a fact that they're ALREADY teaching wonky stuff on politics, ethics, health, and everything else. Somehow, my little brain survived the gauntlet of dumbing-down, and I'm confident that (with my help) my kids can do the same.

IOW: I've got many battles to fight concerning the world my kids will grow up in. This is a battle I'm not even fighting. Homeschooling FTW.

47 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:33am

Creationism is backed by Socialists / Marxists because it drives a wedge between western philosophical thinking and eliminated critical thinking and individualism. It is designed to divide our minds away from the ability to depend on our own rational thought to discover the world around us. So we must have faith in those who know what's best for us instead.

Religion is a personal believe not a social collective. There are ways to consolidate region and science by keeping them separate and distinct. Islam, Collectivists, Fascists, Theocrats, Aristocrats have a great need to have the masses surrender their individual judgment and lives to their greater cause.

48 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:40am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

Nor can they explain the vast differences between Northeast Texas and the rest of the state.

They actually call the area I'm in "Texoma"...

49 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:08am

So soon have they forgotten the Tao of Stinky Lao.

50 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:21am

re: #22 BlueFalcon

Dang, kulhwch... did a car with an ichthus run over your dog?

Not yet, but I do have a rat that's ailing.

}:)     [Miz Lucy's not long for this world, alas.]

51 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:27am

One has to wonder if all the proponents of creationism grasp the fact that what they think they're fighting for (i.e. a certain brand of Christianity) is now being seen as a vehicle to get that other religion, the ROP, into their schools?
Do they not understand that they are opening the doors wide to far more dangerous enemies than scientist, even if they're atheists, will ever be to their religion?
Or should we assume that all those lawyers and boards are also slowly being wrapped up in the arms of the ROP, like the Discovery Insitute, as has been discussed here on LGF before?

52 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:46am

re: #39 Kulhwch

But it sounds like, with this case, Texans are being stupid.  And all on their own.  One can be conservative without rejecting science.

}:)     [You're not saying that evolution is a conspiracy against the Lone Star State, are you?]

No quite the opposite.

53 DaddyO  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:51am

Tony Snow

"...Don’t shrink from pondering God’s role in the universe or Christ’s. You see, it’s trendy to reject religious reflection as a grave offense against decency. That’s not only cowardly. That’s false. Faith and reason are knitted together in the human soul. So don’t leave home without either one..."

54 Phocid  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:52am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

Kipling explained the Armadillo.

55 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:39:34am

re: #38 marjoriemoon

Tell him to keep his back legs crossed!

56 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:40:15am

re: #1 rwmofo

There's always private school ya know.

To whom are you addressing this?

57 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:40:16am

re: #10 zombie

Yes. Evolution can explain it.

Creationism can explain it as well.

Look at the evidence provided by both sides, and decide for yourself.

I don't think anything can explain the Armadillo. They're a right mysterious critter!

58 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:41:33am

re: #45 Wyatt Earp

Well crafted. Mmm . . . Jessica Simpson!

No brain. Proof of adaptation to environment. She doesn't need to know squat about survival, someone will feed her in exchange for reproductive rights.

Not sayin' it's always a good thing.

59 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:41:36am

Been reading up on the teacher a bit. It seems she had been at the agency for just nine months, and had already been cited for other problems with her professionalism...

But yeah. It looks like they fired her for sending out word of this lecture with an attached note saying only, 'FYI.'

I think it's unseemly for someone at a teaching agency to smack down mere Creationism. That's a matter of religion. But if the lecture was on Intelligent Design and its influence in science classrooms, she was well within her field.

In which case, shame on the agency. And good luck in court.

60 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:41:48am
He arrived at these conclusions by “reading everything [he] could get [his] hands on” and listening to podcasts.

So he got to be an expert reading comic books and watching youtube videos. How lame is that.

61 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:41:49am

re: #28 Cognito

Mmm... I'm for keeping religion out of the classroom. But I detect a strong whiff of horse hockey, in this video, for several reasons.

It smacks of a mediocre political play -- note the ridiculous 'punishment' of writing lines on the whiteboard -- and not-so-gracefully pirouettes around some key details. Like the actual email this woman sent about an 'anti-creation' lecture. Was it unprofessional or offensive in tone, for instance? Did she, a science teacher, reach beyond science to take a swipe at the purview of a religious studies class?
Questions. Even for the questioners.

What does it matter what it said? She forwarded an e-mail. I forward a ton of e-mail about things I do not agree with as well as a ton of things I do. Goes the same for seminars and attending them. Mere attendance does not denote that you agree with the subject matter. In this case, she probably did, but what difference does it make?

The link Charles quoted said,

"Administrators reprimanded her for having informed her colleagues about the upcoming talk because it implied "that TEA endorses the speaker's position on a topic on which the agency must remain neutral."

That's an absolutely ludricious statement. It means no such thing.

62 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:42:19am

Texans absolutely must rise up to defeat this. Where will Texas draw professionals to operate their natural resources in future generations if they teach their own children pseudo-science?

63 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:42:29am

re: #42 Kulhwch

And I was just wondering to myself, self, why doesn't this ever seem to happen in a blue state?

}:)     [This keeps up, everyone's going to assume we conservatives are prone to this sort of thing.]

Blues states majorities are dedicated to supporting entitlement views such ash more social programs, anti gun laws, welfare, cultural diversity, Illegal immigration, pretty much standing for everything that Europe loves and we have fought against since our founding.

64 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:42:34am

re: #46 BlueFalcon

Maybe I'm wierd. I grew up in a solid-liberal county in Wisconsin, and I heard all manner of things in school I didn't believe (mostly to do with politics). Maybe this has hardened my shell a bit: see... I don't really care whether what they teach in school is factual or not. I think parents ought to be closely supervising their child's education. Something more interactive than reading a report card.

I don't believe in "young-earth" creationism. I don't think dinosaurs roamed with people. Ever. I also think old-earth creationism is compatible with both the big-bang theory (if you read Genesis intelligently) and macro-evolution.

HOWEVER... it doesn't kill me that people are teaching wonky stuff in biology. Because I know for a fact that they're ALREADY teaching wonky stuff on politics, ethics, health, and everything else. Somehow, my little brain survived the gauntlet of dumbing-down, and I'm confident that (with my help) my kids can do the same.

IOW: I've got many battles to fight concerning the world my kids will grow up in. This is a battle I'm not even fighting. Homeschooling FTW.

That has to be the worst argument concerning creationism in the schools I've ever heard. Basically, you're saying, "Our kids are taught a whole lot of lies. Why not add another lie to the pile?" Are you serious? And are you serious when you say, "I don't really care whether what they teach in school is factual or not." What?

Just because the educational system is flawed in one way doesn't mean we should make it more flawed in another way just for the hell of it.

65 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:43:09am

re: #55 yma o hyd

Tell him to keep his back legs crossed!

lol It started to thunder so now she's under the bed.

66 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:43:18am

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

Read the whole thing.

/the real clear and present danger to the American public education system

67 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:43:50am

The armadillo's nothing. It's the platypus... that's the thing. God made it a funny-looking egg-laying mammal for you to laugh at, and he gave it a poison stinger to teach you humility.

Thus endeth the lesson.

68 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:44:31am

re: #65 marjoriemoon

Ah - thats exactly what mine does! Funny that - is yours a Border Collie?

69 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:44:40am

re: #51 yma o hyd

That's part of the danger of these "Academic Freedom" bills that are pending in several states. The creationist agenda goes beyond just the science classroom. If these bills pass a Muslim teacher could teach Sharia as social studies and would be protected by law. It's a very bad idea on so many levels. I'm sure CAIR is anxiously waiting for the opportunity too exploit this situation.

70 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:45:23am

re: #53 DaddyO

Tony Snow

"...Don’t shrink from pondering God’s role in the universe or Christ’s. You see, it’s trendy to reject religious reflection as a grave offense against decency. That’s not only cowardly. That’s false. Faith and reason are knitted together in the human soul. So don’t leave home without either one..."

Great quote. Reminds me of another line from the Babylon 5 episode where a monastic order was attempting to rebuild a future earth devastated by a nuclear war (JMS borrowed this from Walter Miller's novel "A Canticle for Leibowitz"). One of the monks says "Faith and Reason are like the shoes on your feet...you can travel a lot further with both than just one".

This has long been a cornerstone of both Catholic and Anglican doctrine. C.S. Lewis is a fine exemplar of this line of thought.

71 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:45:55am

re: #64 zombie

Indeed- we don't fix leftist indoctrination by adding creationist indoctrination.

72 grumpy old codger  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:46:10am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?


Rhinoceros made it with a possum?

73 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:46:21am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

I think neither Creationism nor Darwinism can explain Amarillo.

74 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:46:41am

re: #39 Kulhwch

But it sounds like, with this case, Texans are being stupid.  And all on their own.  One can be conservative without rejecting science.

}:)     [You're not saying that evolution is a conspiracy against the Lone Star State, are you?]

It takes someone with an elitist attitude to call an entire community Stupid for falling for Creationist B.S. tricks. What about the Blue states falling for Bullshit liberal propaganda about the State taking care of all their needs and the Government knows best. The anti capitalistic views against business and property owners. Working class people are not stupid just misinformed. You sir, are adhering to class separatist views.

75 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:46:45am

re: #46 BlueFalcon

This is a battle I'm not even fighting. Homeschooling FTW.

How well prepared will your homeschooled children be to compete in college against kids who have taken AP classes in real high schools taught by teachers with Masters Degrees. Just wondering.

76 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:47:25am

re: #52 Egfrow

Ah, okay, reread it, and while I still think it sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, I do see you seem to be coming at it from the other direction.

}:)     [So what do we do about it?]

77 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:47:53am

re: #68 yma o hyd

Ah - thats exactly what mine does! Funny that - is yours a Border Collie?

Naw mutt. Chow/shepard mix about 45 lbs. Looks like a fox.

78 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:47:55am

re: #66 Killian Bundy

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

Read the whole thing.

/the real clear and present danger to the American public education system

Most folks here don't want to read that, they would rather snipe at religion and it's teachings and whoever this "Kulhwch" person is can go screw themselves.

79 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:49:04am

re: #60 Mich-again

So he got to be an expert reading comic books and watching youtube videos. How lame is that.

Finagle's Law: In order to effectively study a subject, you must understand it thoroughly before you start.

80 rightwinger3  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:49:24am

re: #62 Sharmuta

Texans absolutely must rise up to defeat this. Where will Texas draw professionals to operate their natural resources in future generations if they teach their own children pseudo-science?

Sharmuta, pseudo-science is quite the right word. How about bull-shit instead?

81 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:49:41am

re: #78 VegasRick

btw, count me out of "most folks"

/just sayin'

82 Syrah  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:49:56am

I think that we should avoid the term Darwinism.

It allows the kooks to evade the essentials of Natural Selection by making it sound akin to a religion.

Make them strait up deny that Natural Selection is real.

83 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:50:21am

re: #64 zombie

That has to be the worst argument concerning creationism in the schools I've ever heard. Basically, you're saying, "Our kids are taught a whole lot of lies. Why not add another lie to the pile?" Are you serious? And are you serious when you say, "I don't really care whether what they teach in school is factual or not." What?

Just because the educational system is flawed in one way doesn't mean we should make it more flawed in another way just for the hell of it.

Maybe I'm jaded. I just don't think school is for education anymore (rather, public school). It is, at its core, a instrument of governmental social experimentation. If your child receives an actual education at one of these institutions, it's likely because of how you raised them at home.

The other issue, for me, is this: do you want your child shielded from everything you disagree with? Most fundamentalist parents I know would say yes; which is why creationism is being taught in the first place. They won't let their children watch the Gold Compass, and won't let them play D&D. I think that's wrong.

So if your kid goes to such a school district as teaches creationism as an alternative to evolution, I suggest completing their education by discussing it with them, arming them with knowledge, and then sending them back into the classroom with it.

84 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:50:53am

re: #75 Mich-again

How well prepared will your homeschooled children be to compete in college against kids who have taken AP classes in real high schools taught by teachers with Masters Degrees. Just wondering.


Small sample, but the homeschooled kids i know have a much better foundation than you'll find in any but the best private college prep school.

Learning Greek and Latin, for one. Way back in the dark ages (OK, 50s) Latin literacy was damn near a requirement for high education.

What happened? Kids get stupid? Teachers get lazy?
I don't have the answer.

85 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:50:55am

re: #66 Killian Bundy

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

Read the whole thing.

/the real clear and present danger to the American public education system

Excellent column.

Worth at least as much attention as the scuffle in Texas, in my opinion.

86 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:51:05am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

Just so!
Its gone beyond the assumed battle between faith and science, even if so many people still think that scientists are out to attack Christianity.
It is indeed the thin edge of the wedge - but diffrent from what the proponents of that strategy may originally ahve thought.
Its now a question of strictly keeping all religion out of all public schools in order to keep Islam out, because that is where these skirmishes lead.

I wonder if all who defend creationism can spare a thought about what they would say if because of their fight here, Islam and its world view would be introduced as proper subject to be taught in politics, science, history ...

87 tskier[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:51:31am
88 rwmofo  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:51:42am

re: #56 Occasional Reader

To whom are you addressing this?

Public School Unions primarily.

89 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:51:44am

re: #63 Egfrow

Blues states majorities are dedicated to supporting entitlement views such ash more social programs, anti gun laws, welfare, cultural diversity, Illegal immigration, pretty much standing for everything that Europe loves and we have fought against since our founding.

Now why would we fight against cultural diversity or social programs?

}:)     [Just trying to iron out the 2 klinkers I saw in your theory.]

90 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:52:28am

re: #75 Mich-again

How well prepared will your homeschooled children be to compete in college against kids who have taken AP classes in real high schools taught by teachers with Masters Degrees. Just wondering.

Homeschooling is not for everyone. I know many families that have no business doing it, simply because the parents have no education. Speaking personally, I think my kids would be pretty well-prepared. But the question is important, and everyone that home-schools should have to answer it.

91 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:52:45am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

That's part of the danger of these "Academic Freedom" bills that are pending in several states. The creationist agenda goes beyond just the science classroom. If these bills pass a Muslim teacher could teach Sharia as social studies and would be protected by law. It's a very bad idea on so many levels. I'm sure CAIR is anxiously waiting for the opportunity too exploit this situation.

Teachers have to teach school board-approved curriculum. Even if a Muslim teacher explained sharia, he or she could not evaluate a student on the subject unless it was part of the approved curriculum. If a student felt he ore she was a victim of retaliation, the student and the family would have grounds for a grievance.

92 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:53:21am

re: #78 VegasRick

they would rather snipe at religion

Examples, please.

93 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:53:26am
re: #65 marjoriemoon
re: #55 yma o hyd

Tell him to keep his back legs crossed!

lol It started to thunder so now she's under the bed.

See?  The Gods want you to read the thread ...

}:)     [Well, how would you explain it, then?]

94 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:53:33am

re: #58 Van Helsing

No brain just means that I have a chance with her! :)

95 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:53:43am

Here's the problem: Rick Perry appointed Don McLeroy chairman of the Texas State Board of Education. He has an agenda. Here are his views on Evolution and Intelligent Design:
"Now I would like to talk a little bit about the big tent. Why is intelligent design the big tent? It’s because we’re all lined up against the fact that naturalism, that nature is all there is. Whether you’re a progressive creationist, recent creationist, young earth, old earth, it’s all in the tent of intelligent design. And intelligent design here at Grace Bible Church actually is a smaller, uh, tent than you would have in the intelligent design movement as a whole. Because we are all Biblical literalists, we all believe the Bible to be inerrant, and it’s good to remember, though, that the entire intelligent design movement as a whole is a bigger tent. So because it’s a bigger tent, just don’t waste our time arguing with each other about some of the, all of the side issues. And that’s one thing that I really enjoyed about our group is that we’ve put that all in the big tent, we’re all working together."
[Link: www.tfn.org...]

96 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:16am

re: #82 Syrah

Natural selection doesn't always mean the fittest survive. I suppose there was some luck involved too. Who knows there might have been a group of animals that perished in a meteor strike while a weaker herd of the same breed evaded the impact and lived on. They weren't more fit to survive, but they were luckier.

97 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:30am

re: #77 marjoriemoon

Naw mutt. Chow/shepard mix about 45 lbs. Looks like a fox.

Brilliant!
As this thread is about science - not many people know that the ethologist and animal behaviourist Konrad Lorenz adored this cross-breed and thought they were closest to the original dogs, pre-domestication!
So youv'e got a scientifically proven 'best' of dogs, not a mutt!

98 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:53am

well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population......

99 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:54am

re: #96 Mich-again

Natural selection doesn't always mean the fittest survive. I suppose there was some luck involved too. Who knows there might have been a group of animals that perished in a meteor strike while a weaker herd of the same breed evaded the impact and lived on. They weren't more fit to survive, but they were luckier.

Ergo, the National League.

100 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:54am

re: #76 Kulhwch

Ah, okay, reread it, and while I still think it sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, I do see you seem to be coming at it from the other direction.

}:)     [So what do we do about it?]

There is no need to To talk of conspiracy theories when we speak of collectivism and mob rule. It's a non thinking machine of fear that is full of feelings but as little resolved logic. Humankind seems to be looking to climb back into the womb and can't seem to want to let go of some kind of great pacifier to fulfill an emotional need of being protected or looked after. If god exists, he set us free and gave us free minds to take care of ourselves. It is the way of evolution, a species must consider it's own survival of primary importance after all others. Not the Caribou, or the Spotted Owl, or God himself. Emotions are tools to be used by ration and reason to initiate changes for our lives. I believe it is a sin to put all above ourselves. We must be strong and fearless not cowardice and weak looking for someone to save us.

101 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:55:24am

re: #83 BlueFalcon

Most parents do not have the knowledge, skill, time or patience to "discuss" each lesson plan with their children after school in order to neutralize it. The whole point behind public school is that most parents can't teach their kids themselves, for any number of reasons. One should have a reasonable expectation that the schools will be teaching your kids something vaguely resembling knowledge.

Maybe you could anti-indoctrinate your kids every day, but would you want millions of other people's kids fed intellectual garbage, unchallenged, and then growing up to inherit the country?

102 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:56:09am

I also find that UFO dweebs have allot in common with this Creationist B.S. on an emotional level. Many can't take on the responsibility for our own existence.

103 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:56:29am

re: #87 tskier

We are "on this crap" because of the parallel danger it could indirectly unleash. See the following:

re: #69 Killgore Trout

104 Macker  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:57:02am

re: #99 Cognito

Is that because of the AL's DH?

105 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:57:04am

re: #84 Van Helsing

I doubt many of the home schoolers who refuse to send their kids to public schools so they won't be subjected to modern science are getting into much depth in the math and science curriculum. Call me a skeptic there.

106 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:58:23am

re: #89 Kulhwch

Now why would we fight against cultural diversity or social programs?

}:)     [Just trying to iron out the 2 klinkers I saw in your theory.]

Because the Government is not a moral authority on deciding what "Social Causes" or entitlements are. We fought wars over that kind of thinking. When the government is in charge of distrubtion then someone has too loose who may be accused of having more.

107 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:58:29am

re: #47 Egfrow

Creationism is backed by Socialists / Marxists because it drives a wedge between western philosophical thinking and eliminated critical thinking and individualism. It is designed to divide our minds away from the ability to depend on our own rational thought to discover the world around us. So we must have faith in those who know what's best for us instead.

Religion is a personal believe not a social collective. There are ways to consolidate region and science by keeping them separate and distinct. Islam, Collectivists, Fascists, Theocrats, Aristocrats have a great need to have the masses surrender their individual judgment and lives to their greater cause.

Excellent!

108 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:58:55am

re: #100 Egfrow

Excellent - and one should above all else not look to some self-designed human 'saviours' to do that!

109 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:59:29am

re: #91 goddessoftheclassroom

I'm sure the public schools in Dearborn could get enough CAIR supporters on the board to make it happen. It wouldn't happen in Louisiana but it's very possible that it could happen elsewhere. I think it's a mistake to invoke these rules and assume that Christians will be the only ones to exploit them. Things change. I think it's also to be honest about this; most supporters of Academic Freedom don't really care about academic freedom. They want to push their own religious agenda. They'd be outraged if other religions were trying the same thing. It's dishonest and unfair.

110 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:59:39am

re: #99 Cognito

Ergo, the National League.

Someday pitchers will evolve and be able to hit as well.

111 Syrah  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:59:56am

re: #96 Mich-again

Natural selection doesn't always mean the fittest survive. I suppose there was some luck involved too. Who knows there might have been a group of animals that perished in a meteor strike while a weaker herd of the same breed evaded the impact and lived on. They weren't more fit to survive, but they were luckier.

That is true.

I have made that very same point many times in this debate.

The strongest, smartest, and fastest can lose out to those that just reproduce more numerously. In such a state, what is being selected is not what we might consider "better" but that which propagates the most.

Natural selection can be messy.

112 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:00:11pm

re: #97 yma o hyd

Brilliant!
As this thread is about science - not many people know that the ethologist and animal behaviourist Konrad Lorenz adored this cross-breed and thought they were closest to the original dogs, pre-domestication!
So youv'e got a scientifically proven 'best' of dogs, not a mutt!

hehe Well we're not so sure. She really found us. She was on the yard one morning and no one in the neighborhood would claim her so she became part of the family.

She looked a lot more like a chow when she was a puppy, matty hair, bearlike face. But then her nose, ears and coat grew more like a shepard. So who knows what's in there. She has a perfect disposition.

Mother Nature is a mad scientist indeed!

113 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:00:38pm

re: #18 Wyatt Earp

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

That guy used to have some great BBQ rib restaurants.
Oh, that was Tony Roma.

Never mind.

114 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:00:56pm

re: #18 Wyatt Earp

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

I like this comment. I don't know if it was you intention or not, but I think it illustrates the absolute silliness of those that insist on conflating the origins of life with the theory of evolution.

115 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:00pm

re: #104 Macker

How else, but the lucky sidestep of a flaming meteor, could one explain the continued survival of the breed?

That's why their perennial champions are called 'The Dodgers.'

116 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:19pm

I have to point something out here.

Evolution is a very small part of a biology course. Most kids only have one life science course in junior high and one biology course in high school. It absolutely MUST be taught as part of those courses, and ID has not earned its place in the curriculum--and shouldn't until it meets the criteria of a scientific theory.

THE IMPORTANT thing, I think, is that students are free to debate and argue with their teachers based on FACTS. It's when students are told to shut up and copy down these notes--whatever the curriculum is--that there is a serious problem.

117 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:33pm

re: #92 Occasional Reader

Examples, please.

re: #12 Kulhwch

Okay, now we start the official countdown to the obligatory "Wah, wah, you're making fun of my faith, you heartless bastards" speech.

}:)     [Everybody pick a square on the poll sheet?  Everybody put their dollar in?]

re: #16 Kulhwch

Charles:

Excellent entertainment for a Sunday morning.  IMNSHO, this beats church all hollow.  Thanks.

}:)     [But then, my worship is different.]

And many others on most of the ID threads.

118 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:42pm

re: #101 zombie

Most parents do not have the knowledge, skill, time or patience to "discuss" each lesson plan with their children after school in order to neutralize it.

The first two are sad and unfortunate, but not insurmountable: it's never too late to seek higher education (my father graduated college at the age of 38 and I was still in middle school). The time and patience issues are sad, given that most parents have no problem making time for prime-time TV every night.

Another positive side-effect of parents taking an active role in their kids' education is accountability for getting work done and improving grades. That part is proven in studies.

119 RedSoxNation  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:55pm

Watch the Penn & Teller presentation on this topic. It is informative and very funny, especially the opening segment where Penn makes the case for Darwinism and Teller makes the (short and blunt) case for Creationism...

[Link: hotair.com...]

120 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:02:32pm

re: #98 redc1c4

well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population......

And you have obambi to support.

121 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:06pm

re: #119 RedSoxNation

Yep- we discussed it yesterday.

122 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:19pm

re: #102 Egfrow

I also find that UFO dweebs have allot in common with this Creationist B.S. on an emotional level. Many can't take on the responsibility for our own existence.

I actually think the core of the opposition to evolutionary theory is the same emotion that has been guiding this from the very beginning in 1858:

People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys.
People want to think that human beings are "special" and something utterly unlike the rest of the animal kingdom.

In reality, most creationists I think don't give a hoot about whether or not dogs are related to wolves or whether fossils are 3 weeks or or 65 million years old. They simply don't want "monkey cooties."

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.

123 Syrah  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:25pm

bbl

124 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:33pm

re: #116 goddessoftheclassroom

It's when students are told to shut that there is a serious problem.

You prefer whackin' them, dontchya ?

125 J.S.  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:35pm

There's a Wiki article on Christine Comer, here. It sounds (on the surface) that a political decision was made by her supervisor to fire her...(ie, Comer wasn't preaching the "religion" of ID), and it looks like Comer has a case (re: wrongful dismissal) and I hope Comer wins her lawsuit.

126 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:41pm

re: #64 zombie

I'm against book burning, but here's a stack of books to throw on the pile. Ta Dah!

127 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:55pm

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

128 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:04:44pm

re: #68 yma o hyd

Ah - thats exactly what mine does! Funny that - is yours a Border Collie?

Rounding up dust bunnies?

129 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:05:05pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

One ding up my friend.

130 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:05:52pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the public schools in Dearborn could get enough CAIR supporters on the board to make it happen. It wouldn't happen in Louisiana but it's very possible that it could happen elsewhere. I think it's a mistake to invoke these rules and assume that Christians will be the only ones to exploit them. Things change. I think it's also to be honest about this; most supporters of Academic Freedom don't really care about academic freedom. They want to push their own religious agenda. They'd be outraged if other religions were trying the same thing. It's dishonest and unfair.

This is really the heart of the matter. Once this door is opened, we will not be able to stop the tide from coming in and bringing with it who knows what. As I've said before- who is to say academic freedom in high schools wouldn't include Holocaust revisionism? Not to mention a whole host of other topics- where does it end?

131 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:27pm

re: #129 VegasRick

Your a Good Man Rick.

132 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:45pm

re: #120 VegasRick

And you have obambi to support.

me? support Obanal?

you've been out in the desert sun too long.

133 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:51pm

re: #111 Syrah

The strongest, smartest, and fastest can lose out to those that just reproduce more numerously.

True, look at human history. You can acquire land through power, but it takes people to occupy the land to keep it. Same kind of thing goes for reserving curb space at a big parade. You can hold onto territory for a while by telling people you are saving the spot, but if your friends don't get there soon enough the crowd will eventually move into the space.

134 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:57pm

OT:

Middle East Radio Forum is on now at www.kknt960.com. I would highly recommend Lizards check out this program. Lots of great commentators on Israeli politics such as Yoni Tidi.

135 mossley  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:59pm

re: #82 Syrah

I think that we should avoid the term Darwinism.

It allows the kooks to evade the essentials of Natural Selection by making it sound akin to a religion.

Make them strait up deny that Natural Selection is real.


Why do you think Creationists insist on using the term? It's part of their method, along with such nuggets as "It's just a theory!", or "Third Law of Thermodynamics!", or "You're attacking me for being a Christian!" They can't argue on the merits of their position because they have been proven repeatedly to be false.

136 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:06pm
re: #74 Egfrowre: #39 Kulhwch

But it sounds like, with this case, Texans are being stupid. And all on their own. One can be conservative without rejecting science.

}:) [You're not saying that evolution is a conspiracy against the Lone Star State, are you?]

It takes someone with an elitist attitude to call an entire community Stupid for falling for Creationist B.S. tricks.

Actually, I didn't call the entire community Stupid for falling for IDIOT™ tricks.  I didn't say "all Texans are being stupid", but if you need to make stuff up to make your point, you might want to consider how valid it is.

What about the Blue states falling for Bullshit liberal propaganda about the State taking care of all their needs and the Government knows best.

What about the high price of hats?  In other words, what has that to do with the forcing of superstition as science in the Texan schools, and hence schools in other states soon afterwards?

The anti capitalistic views against business and property owners. Working class people are not stupid just misinformed.

I await your evidence to show where I said such a thing.  You are certainly acting stupid, that's for sure.  FYI, I'm working class too.  You might need to polish up your schtick, it's sticking.

You sir, are adhering to class separatist views.

And here I've always been classless.  Looks like projection on your part to me.

}:)     [You may need to take a breather, you're getting slobber all over everything.]

137 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:27pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

I'm dinging you down for one reason: You seem to equate teaching creationist lies with imparting Christian values. The two are in fact diametric opposites.

138 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:49pm

re: #122 zombie

"monkey cooties"

Don McLeroy, chairman of the Texas TEA, is worried about "tree cooties."

"Phillip Johnson is one of the leaders in the intelligent design movement. He uses the word Darwinism and I will be giving quotes from him, so when you hear the word Darwinism or if I accidentally refer to the word Darwinism, it means the theory of common descent. That we share common ancestor with that tree out there. I mean that is basically what we have in our high school textbooks. If you open a high school textbook, they basically state as a fact that we share common ancestry with life that first got started and some went to be plants and eventually trees and some became us." --Don McLeroy


[Link: www.tfn.org...]

139 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:50pm

re: #131 Maximu§

Your a Good Man Rick.

Thank you.

140 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:57pm

re: #122 zombie

I actually think the core of the opposition to evolutionary theory is the same emotion that has been guiding this from the very beginning in 1858:

People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys.
People want to think that human beings are "special" and something utterly unlike the rest of the animal kingdom.

In reality, most creationists I think don't give a hoot about whether or not dogs are related to wolves or whether fossils are 3 weeks or or 65 million years old. They simply don't want "monkey cooties."

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.

I did a substantial research paper on the Scopes Trial during my senior year of college -- trial transcript, news articles, etc. Monkeys were VERY prominently displayed in Dayton during the "festivities". It was like the entire focus of the proceedings.

*UP-DING*

141 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:08:08pm

re: #127 Maximu§

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all.

How do you propose to do this without violating the Constitution?

142 RedSoxNation  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:08:38pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

Yep- we discussed it yesterday.

I should have known better...in any event, it was pretty funny...

143 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:08:57pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

then they need to gt that "Christian teaching" someplace other than a "public" school...... where are the parents?

i don't dispute the need, simply the mechanism.

144 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:09:45pm

re: #137 zombie

I'm dinging you down for one reason: You seem to equate teaching creationist lies with imparting Christian values. The two are in fact diametric opposites.

I would phrase that as creationist beleifs. Calling it a lie implies that the "teller" KNOWS creationism to be false, and teaches it a truth

145 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:09:52pm

re: #142 RedSoxNation

Well- if you look, allahpundit give Charles a hat tip right in the opening of that threat at Hot Air.

146 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:10:11pm

re: #78 VegasRick

Most folks here don't want to read that, they would rather snipe at religion and it's teachings and whoever this "Kulhwch" person is can go screw themselves.

Would have to be twice as good as sex with you, sir.

}:)     [And I'm not the one spontaneously wanking in the thread.]

147 Iron Fist  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:10:55pm

re: #101 zombieMy main worry with Public Schools isn't that they're teaching ID along with Evolution, or Eveolution, or, for that matter ID alone.

My concern is with the Science classes where they are teaching the Global Warmist faith as "settled science".

Frankly, what a kid knows about evolution is unlikely to affect his survival in the job market or his voting patterns. Global Warmism, on the other hand, will effect us all with carbon taxes and the like. It could get to the point of sever negative economic consequences (i.e. if we elect someone nuts enough to implement the Kyoto Treaty).

It's not just kids who are being bombarded with the message that the "science" is "setteled" and that anyone who doesn't believe in Global Warming is a "Deniers". This is the message being supported by one of the major political parties and its spokesmen, most prominantly Al Gore.

This is the real threat.

148 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:11:26pm

The theory of evolution has survived 150 years of rigorous testing and has passed with flying colors. It is supported by the vast majority of scientists around the world, and particularly by those in fields such as medicine, biology, paleontology, etc. If evolution did not explain what these people observe in their work every single day, it would have been tossed out long ago.

So what do you do if you don't like this theory because it conflicts with your faith?

Well, you could be honest and recognize that creationism and I.D. are not science, and swallow hard and let your kids be taught evolution in school, but teach them your faith-based beliefs at home or in church. Or, you could homeschool your kids.

But apparently a lot of folks find it much more fun to try to subvert the Constitution, rewrite the centuries-old definition of science, and accuse millions of scientists of being really, really, really stupid, oblivious morons who cling to evolution despite the great gaping holes in the theory so big you could sail an aircraft carrier through them.

Even if their argument is that all those millions of scientists are committed atheists and secular humanists who have for 150 years promoted a sham theory in order to remove God from human life, they're STILL saying scientists are a bunch of drooling idiots, because they couldn't come up with a fake theory that a 5-year old can't blow holes through.

Yet, these same people make full use of all the technology science has provided for them. Computers, cell phones, modern medicine, cars...they trust their lives to airplanes that exist because of the application of the same scientific method that was used to develop the theory of evolution.

Ironic, no?

149 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:11:33pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

The decline of the American youth and the replacement of parents by big government is a direct result of Darwinists imposing their self-defeating ideology.

The big scare is the decline in science Darwinism has brought about. My junior research colleauges lack the critical thinking skills because they have been taught, "If it don't make sense, evolution did it". I coined it the "Darwin-of-the-gaps" approach to science.

150 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:11:58pm

re: #122 zombie

...People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys....That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.


Yes, but it's a stupid argument. It doesn't say that we descended from monkeys anyway. We share a common ancestor. It's a completely different thing.

The adament refusal to understand the science is mindboggling to me.

151 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:13:05pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

NO religion in school. That's what your clergy is for.

How about all the kids who aren't Christians? Screw them?

152 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:13:13pm

re: #127 Maximu§

re: #137 zombie

I'm dinging you down for one reason: You seem to equate teaching creationist lies with imparting Christian values. The two are in fact diametric opposites.

Maximu§, I'm up-dinging both you and zombie because I agree with her "seem to", AND at the same time agree with everything else you said.

/nitpicking

153 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:13:18pm

On the narrow issue of Chris Comer's firing, she has a good case for describing her 'FYI' email as neutral on the issue, especially compared with the agency chairman's public advocacy of Intelligent Design.

154 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:13:18pm

re: #132 redc1c4

me? support Obanal?

you've been out in the desert sun too long.

Well now, you stated that "well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population......" and I said "And you have obambi to support". If you are going to throw me into that cult because of my beliefs than I think it fair to throw you into another cult because of yours.

And I do have a pretty good tan pasty boy.

155 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:14:05pm

Of course, no one's currently teaching ID/Creationism as part of an approved science curriculum, in any public school, anywhere in the United States.

/and, as has been the case for decades now, they'll lose in court if they try to teach ID/Creationism as science and that's a fact

156 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:14:30pm

re: #141 Sharmuta

How do you propose to do this without violating the Constitution?

Schools already require students to perform a certain number of community service hours as part of the requirements for graduation. And included in the list of things to do is work at soup kitchens, or shelters. So even though its not Christian, its doing the same work. Not all of Christian teaching involves "superstition". A good deal of Christian teaching is about taking care of your neighbor and being of service to others and not being so wrapped up in yourself all the time. Schools can teach those lessons without crossing the line into religion.

157 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:14:35pm

re: #101 zombie

Most parents do not have the knowledge, skill, time or patience to "discuss" each lesson plan with their children after school in order to neutralize it. The whole point behind public school is that most parents can't teach their kids themselves, for any number of reasons. One should have a reasonable expectation that the schools will be teaching your kids something vaguely resembling knowledge.

Maybe you could anti-indoctrinate your kids every day, but would you want millions of other people's kids fed intellectual garbage, unchallenged, and then growing up to inherit the country?

Only if you make me pay for it too.

158 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:01pm

re: #122 zombie

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary primate emotional motivation today.

Fixed that for ya'.

159 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:14pm

re: #146 Kulhwch

Would have to be twice as good as sex with you, sir.

}:)     [And I'm not the one spontaneously wanking in the thread.]

Blow me.

160 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:30pm

re: #140 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I did a substantial research paper on the Scopes Trial during my senior year of college -- trial transcript, news articles, etc. Monkeys were VERY prominently displayed in Dayton during the "festivities". It was like the entire focus of the proceedings.

*UP-DING*

Ah yes, who could ever forget Joe Mendi, the Scopes Trial chimpanzee!

161 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:38pm

re: #148 Tigger2005

You don't understand the hierarchy of research these days. If you fail at math, logic, chemistry, physics, biology, etc. You go into evolutionary biology and stand at a podium preaching Darwinism.

Real biologists don't do Darwinism. It's irrelevant.

162 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:49pm

A few quotes from our Great Mentor,

"May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God."
(T.J. 1826)

"Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."
(T.J. 1825)

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams. "

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man."
(T.J. 1800)

"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
(T.J. 1782)

"What is it men cannot be made to believe!"
(T.J. 1786)

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. "
(T.J. 1789)

163 Iron Fist  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:16:27pm

re: #127 Maximu§,

No, no, no, you've got it all wrong! It is most important to teach consensual homosexual sodomy as the natural thing to 13 year olds. Get with the program!

164 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:16:38pm

re: #127 Maximu§

I'd say it would be good if the teaching were to be done by christians who actually live their faith and don't use this faith and the Bible to whack people right left and centre, or base their teachings exclusively on what they think the Bible says.

I still do not understand, after many years of debates, why being a scientist and being a Christian should be incompatible. They are not mutually exclusive, regardless of what some people want you to think.

A good teacher must be in command of his subject, while at the same time being a person who earns respect by the strength of his personal example. And that is what Christians are asked to be - examples, through the way they live, not because they know more Bible quotes than anybody else!

165 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:16:44pm

re: #144 sattv4u2

I would phrase that as creationist beleifs. Calling it a lie implies that the "teller" KNOWS creationism to be false, and teaches it a truth

They are lies. Any adult in the position of being teacher must know they are lies.

166 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:17:38pm

re: #161 george slivers

You don't understand the hierarchy of research these days. If you fail at math, logic, chemistry, physics, biology, etc. You go into evolutionary biology and stand at a podium preaching Darwinism.

Real biologists don't do Darwinism. It's irrelevant.

You're lying.

167 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:17:43pm

re: #122 zombie

I actually think the core of the opposition to evolutionary theory is the same emotion that has been guiding this from the very beginning in 1858:

People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys.
People want to think that human beings are "special" and something utterly unlike the rest of the animal kingdom.

In reality, most creationists I think don't give a hoot about whether or not dogs are related to wolves or whether fossils are 3 weeks or or 65 million years old. They simply don't want "monkey cooties."

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.

I agree, It's sad that we can't use our own minds to know that we indeed are special in our own rights, this is a form of loneliness and despair for we are ashamed to exist with such gifts of ability.

168 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:17:45pm

re: #105 Mich-again

Like I said - small sample. For a larger population, I agree.

My concern with public schools is that they aren't necessarily being indoctrinated, they aren't being supplied with an adequate background to think critically.

Shovel it in. They'll swallow it. Kinda 'splains the 'xxxxxx Studies' classes that proliferate in Universities these days.

169 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:32pm

re: #155 Killian Bundy

No one may be teaching ID becuase of the ACLU and the liberal tyranny and oppresion we suffer in science.

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Thank you all for your support.

170 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:35pm

re: #161 george slivers

You're a hoot. What do you do for a living?

171 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:37pm

re: #116 goddessoftheclassroom

I have to point something out here.

Evolution is a very small part of a biology course. Most kids only have one life science course in junior high and one biology course in high school. It absolutely MUST be taught as part of those courses, and ID has not earned its place in the curriculum--and shouldn't until it meets the criteria of a scientific theory.

THE IMPORTANT thing, I think, is that students are free to debate and argue with their teachers based on FACTS. It's when students are told to shut up and copy down these notes--whatever the curriculum is--that there is a serious problem.

Like Global Warming, for instance?

172 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:39pm

re: #146 Kulhwch

Do you ever have anything meaningful to add?
You remind me of Grover Dill. He was Scott Farkas' little toadie in a Christmas Story.

173 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:53pm

re: #106 Egfrow

Because the Government is not a moral authority on deciding what "Social Causes" or entitlements are. We fought wars over that kind of thinking. When the government is in charge of distrubtion then someone has too loose who may be accused of having more.

Sorry, I don't see the answer to my question in your response.

}:)     [But I'm not as surprized about it as I used to be.  Thanks for responding.]

174 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:19:13pm

re: #170 Killgore Trout

You're a hoot. What do you do for a living?

I was thinking stand-up comic.

175 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:19:20pm

re: #128 debutaunt

Rounding up dust bunnies?

Naw - just hiding from scary, unexplicable (to her) loud random noises. she does the same when there are fireworks - its the randomness of the noise which is disturbing, and Border Collies have very sensitive hearing.

(She is bored by dust bunnies - she prefers round or oval bouncy objects!)

176 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:05pm

re: #169 george slivers

I think you're full of sh*t.

177 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:07pm

re: #166 Tigger2005

You're lying.

Let me elaborate on that.

You're telling bald-faced, brazen, naked lies.

LYING.

Bearing false witness.

I believe Yahweh frowns on that.

178 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:16pm

re: #160 zombie

Ah yes, who could ever forget Joe Mendi, the Scopes Trial chimpanzee!

Yes. I remember reading various articles, from various points of view, and thinking that I simply could NOT imagine what the street scenes must have looked and sounded like.

179 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:30pm

re: #143 redc1c4

then they need to gt that "Christian teaching" someplace other than a "public" school...... where are the parents?

i don't dispute the need, simply the mechanism.

Parents?

More often than not in our society, parents are divorced, don't care or just don't have the time and a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of. If the school has to pick up where the parents left off, than-so-be-it.

No, I don't want our schools to become religious Christian modrassas, but a large percentage of Americans are Christians and to have a minority of secularists force their views on the public schools discriminates against us Christians.

For everyone here saying "send your kid to private school"...well give me the money and Ill do just that.

180 baxtrice  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:43pm

Wow, I see red negatives everywhere. Down-dingers apparently have spawned.

181 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:50pm

re: #170 Killgore Trout


As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

182 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:21:48pm

re: #147 Iron Fist

Agreed, Global Warming is a hoax that is being taught to our kids. But that doesn't negate the fact that Creationism is ALSO a hoax being taught (or attempted to be taught) to our kids.

People keep coming up with same argument: Gee, forget about creationism -- there's a different problem over there! None of that changes anything. It's basically like this conversation:

"This food has botulism! Don't feed it to the children!"
"Ah, don't worry the botulism -- it also has salmonella! The kids have been eating it for years."

183 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:22:15pm
184 J.S.  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:22:17pm

re: #153 jaunte

Indeed. I think some of this is going way, way beyond just teaching Evolutionary Theory (it's also about stacking TEAs with proponents of an idea; it's about firing those who stand in opposition; it's about using/abusing power; etc.)

185 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:23:09pm

re: #177 Tigger2005


I'm defending good science (ID) from those who bear false witness (Darwinists)

186 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:23:18pm

re: #179 Maximu§

a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of. If the school has to pick up where the parents left off, than-so-be-it.

1) This violates the Constitution.
2) This opens the door for a "little" islamic teaching.

187 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:23:28pm

re: #184 J.S.

I hope there is a lot of Discovery in the trial.

188 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:09pm

re: #185 george slivers

What do you think of the TEA's strong-arm tactics?

189 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:09pm

re: #136 Kulhwch


I await your evidence to show where I said such a thing. You are certainly acting stupid, that's for sure. FYI, I'm working class too. You might need to polish up your schtick, it's sticking

That was a comment aimed towards the so called "Blue States" and was stated in that context and not toward you personally. I don't know you and can only judge from what you type here. I personally don't like to make judgments ideas that are held and am always willing to engage in discussion unless hostility ensues.

190 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:17pm

re: #169 george slivers

No one may be teaching ID becuase of the ACLU and the liberal tyranny and oppresion we suffer in science.

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Thank you all for your support.

You, sir, sound like a blue-ribbon bullshit artist. I strongly suspect that statement is a bald-faced lie.

191 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:20pm

re: #165 zombie

They are lies. Any adult in the position of being teacher must know they are lies.

So every person over the age of consent, every Christian, Jew, Buhddist, Muslim, Taoist, LDS, Hindi, Wingnut that BELEIVE in ID is actually KNOWINGLY lying ?

Wow, guess the agnostics and atheiists are the only ones that can tell the TRUTH about it!

192 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:28pm

re: #154 VegasRick

Well now, you stated that "well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population......" and I said "And you have obambi to support". If you are going to throw me into that cult because of my beliefs than I think it fair to throw you into another cult because of yours.

And I do have a pretty good tan pasty boy.

i was referring to articles Charles has posted, such as this one...

whether you like it or not, they support your beliefs..... think about it.

193 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:45pm

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey


It's not the job of the science teacher to peddle pseudoscience Darwinism to the masses either.

194 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:51pm

re: #155 Killian Bundy

Of course, no one's currently teaching ID/Creationism as part of an approved science curriculum, in any public school, anywhere in the United States.

/and, as has been the case for decades now, they'll lose in court if they try to teach ID/Creationism as science and that's a fact

And yet they keep trying and trying and trying....

195 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:25:23pm

re: #174 Sharmuta

I was thinking stand-up comic.

Nope, he's nowhere NEAR good enough.

196 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:25:27pm

re: #179 Maximu§

Parents?

More often than not in our society, parents are divorced, don't care or just don't have the time and a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of. If the school has to pick up where the parents left off, than-so-be-it.

No, I don't want our schools to become religious Christian modrassas, but a large percentage of Americans are Christians and to have a minority of secularists force their views on the public schools discriminates against us Christians.

For everyone here saying "send your kid to private school"...well give me the money and Ill do just that.

for better or worse, the Constitution forbids what you propose. you'll need a new plan.

197 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:25:30pm
198 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:25:39pm

re: #188 jaunte

What do you think of the TEA's strong-arm tactics?

That wasn't nearly as "strong armed" as what has been done to scientists who are ID supporters. You need to watch "Expelled"

199 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:26:08pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

Bullshit

200 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:26:16pm
201 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:26:25pm

re: #198 george slivers

I see, so one of them was fired for sending an email with the note "FYI?"

202 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:26:27pm

re: #198 george slivers

Are you Michael Behe?

203 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:27:04pm

re: #198 george slivers

That wasn't nearly as "strong armed" as what has been done to scientists who are ID supporters. You need to watch "Expelled"

I was once "expelled" from the cub scouts. All I did was try to eat a brownie! Does that count ?

BAD SATT ,,, BAD BAD BAD !

204 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:27:25pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

Give us the name and date of one peer-reviewed journal you have been published in so that we may read about your "breakthroughs."

205 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:27:45pm

re: #179 Maximu§

Parents?

More often than not in our society, parents are divorced, don't care or just don't have the time and a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of. If the school has to pick up where the parents left off, than-so-be-it.

No, I don't want our schools to become religious Christian modrassas, but a large percentage of Americans are Christians and to have a minority of secularists force their views on the public schools discriminates against us Christians.

For everyone here saying "send your kid to private school"...well give me the money and Ill do just that.

OMG you have to be kidding. I'm terribly sorry, but I don't buy this whiny Christian thing. A previously banned poster Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named did that constantly and it drove me insane.

You have the nerve to say that YOUR being discriminated against while you advocate discriminating against others!

Firstly, "Non-Christian" doesn't mean "secularist". Secondly, these arguments are spelled out quite neatly in the Constitution. Period, end of story.

206 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:25pm

re: #204 Basho

Give us the name and date of one peer-reviewed journal you have been published in so that we may read about your "breakthroughs."

He won't, because he hasn't published anything of the sort.

207 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:31pm

re: #196 redc1c4

for better or worse, the Constitution forbids what you propose. you'll need a new plan.

the constitution forbids me from sending my son to private school ?

208 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:32pm

re: #194 zombie


It's the anti-Darwin allele we suffer from. It has pleiotropic effects that include increased reproduction and passing on this gene to the next generation. You can count on use challenging the phony propoganda of Darwinism until the human race is extinct.

209 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:36pm

re: #170 Killgore Trout

You're a hoot. What do you do for a living?

It claims to be a nationally known leading biologist, but it's lying.

210 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:56pm
211 Iron Fist  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:29:25pm

re: #196 redc1c4,

The Constitution forbids the establishment of a State religion. I'm of the mind that that also forbids the establishment of Atheism as the Official State Religion. Yet that is what we are coming closer and closer to. That may not concern you, but it concerns me.

And it violates the Constitution as well.

212 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:29:37pm

re: #169 george slivers

I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Thank you all for your support.

No one here believes that act anymore.

213 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:29:45pm

re: #206 pre-Boomer Marine brat

He won't, because he hasn't published anything of the sort.

I have my picture on post office walls, does that count? And my Mom always wanted my photo on a milk carton!

214 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:29:55pm

I pointed this out earlier. Funny that the Biblical literalists have given up on the Biblical explanation of the heavens. Of course that took centuries of arguing with or even imprisoning astronomers who questioned the "firmament" as it was described in Genesis.

And now the same arguments come up regarding the propagation of life throughout the planet. The literal text which failed so bad at describing the heavens is again held out as the literal authority on how life spread throughout the planet.

215 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:03pm
re: #117 VegasRick
re: #92 Occasional Reader

Examples, please.

re: #12 Kulhwch

Okay, now we start the official countdown to the obligatory "Wah, wah, you're making fun of my faith, you heartless bastards" speech.

}:) [Everybody pick a square on the poll sheet? Everybody put their dollar in?]

Okay, I guess we have a winner, or a whiner, depending on point of view.  I think you get extra points for a non-traditional whine, but most of that will be left up to the judges.  The countdown appears to be over.  Everyone tally up their sheets.

re: #16 Kulhwch

Charles:

Excellent entertainment for a Sunday morning. IMNSHO, this beats church all hollow. Thanks.

}:) [But then, my worship is different.]

And I'm sniping at religion by saying that my religion is different, how?

And many others on most of the ID threads.

You know, running around screaming "Is too!" "Is too!" "Is too!" is not really a valid answer.

}:)     [Bet you have more to say about me undermining your religious views, don't you?]

216 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:19pm

re: #197 buzzsawmonkey

Nervous Norvus--"Ape Call"

The proper theme song for these threads.

How about the Kinks' 'Apeman'?

217 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:34pm

re: #204 Basho

Give us the name and date of one peer-reviewed journal you have been published in so that we may read about your "breakthroughs."

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

218 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:45pm

re: #212 zombie

It doesn't actually bear out the assertion of 'Expelled' that pro ID scientists are suffering terrible discrimination, does it?

219 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:53pm

re: #214 Mich-again

+ 127819728927! :-D

220 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:59pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

Stop! Yer killin' me!

221 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:31:19pm
222 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:31:32pm

re: #192 redc1c4

i was referring to articles Charles has posted, such as this one...

whether you like it or not, they support your beliefs..... think about it.

You and I probably agree on 99% of the issues, just not this one. I think trying to influence my beliefs by stating that "I agree with muslims" is not right. I would die for your right to believe as you will and I think others should at least not mock or ridicule my beliefs.

223 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:32:09pm

re: #217 george slivers

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

Oh ... how very CONVENIENT!
You are a ball-less wonder!

224 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:32:46pm

re: #194 zombie

And yet they keep trying and trying and trying....

And consistently going down in legal flames with every attempt, a persistent nuisance, nothing more.

/not even showing up on radar as far as exigent threats to the U.S. public education system are concerned

225 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:33:10pm

re: #217 george slivers

It's not that you won't, it's that you can't.

226 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:33:59pm

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey

I didn't. But now I shall. Wasn't Nervous Norvus featured on Dr. Demento a lot?

I know. I'll go look.

Google. Hate it. Makes me do my own damn work.

227 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:01pm

re: #173 Kulhwch

Sorry, I don't see the answer to my question in your response.

}:)     [But I'm not as surprized about it as I used to be.  Thanks for responding.]

With all due respect, you should re phrase or restate your question so that I can have a real chance at addressing it instead of being defensive about it. I said your remark was elitist but did not call you one as you are degrading to here. The quesiton I read was

Now why would we fight against cultural diversity or social programs?

That's the one I responded to. Can you elaborate on what your definition of Cultural Diversity or Social Programs mean so that I can properly respond. Don't worry, I don't slobber, I'm just curious.

228 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:02pm

re: #122 zombie

I actually think the core of the opposition to evolutionary theory is the same emotion that has been guiding this from the very beginning in 1858:

People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys.
People want to think that human beings are "special" and something utterly unlike the rest of the animal kingdom.

In reality, most creationists I think don't give a hoot about whether or not dogs are related to wolves or whether fossils are 3 weeks or or 65 million years old. They simply don't want "monkey cooties."

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.

It's sad on another level, that of the fact that they're right, they're NOT descended from monkeys.  They're descended from ape-like-hominids.  They're screaming about a non-issue, and they don't even know it.

}:)     [Maybe if they'd been TAUGHT evolution in school, they wouldn't make that mistake?]

229 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:22pm

re: #213 sattv4u2

I have my picture on post office walls, does that count? And my Mom always wanted my photo on a milk carton!

I strongly suspect that this little twit is after recognition.

230 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:26pm

Poll: Creationism, Intelligent Design Still Taught in U.S. Classrooms.
" One in eight U.S. high school biology teachers presents creationism or intelligent design in a positive light in the classroom, a new survey shows, despite a federal court's recent ban against it.

And a quarter of the nation's high school biology teachers say they devoted at least one or two classroom hours to the topics, with about half presenting it favorably and half presenting it as an invalid alternative.

Those results are part of a nationally representative, random sample of 939 teachers who filled out surveys between March 5, 2007, and May 1, 2007 on questions concerning the teaching of evolution. The figures have a 3 percent margin of error.

The research, funded by the National Science Foundation, also revealed that between 12 percent and 16 percent of the nation's biology teachers are creationists.

About one in six of them have a "young Earth" orientation, which means they believe that human beings were created by God in their present form within the past 10,000 years.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

231 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:27pm

re: #217 george slivers

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

BTW, what's your IQ?

232 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:28pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

Provide one example of this ID related "science"

233 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:28pm

re: #151 marjoriemoon

NO religion in school. That's what your clergy is for.

How about all the kids who aren't Christians? Screw them?

No, but maybe they can learn something about Faith....that little thing inside of us Christians that sends us all over the world to feed the poor, build houses and try to make the world a better place.

I saw an old Mexican woman in a Catholic Church one day and on her knee's she went from the back of the chuch to the front reading from the Bible every step of the way...it took her hours and I was awed.

Thats Faith.

You like the ACLU? Because your supporting their positions right here and now.

234 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:45pm

re: #217 george slivers

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

So that's zero? If you're not getting published your "research" ain't worth jack.

Talk about bearing false witness. You're a compulsive liar.

235 ProUSA  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:35:19pm

I pay to send my kids to Catholic school. They learn about evolution beginning in kindergarten.

If there are facts to be analyzed that appear to be contrary to evolutionary theory, by all means address them. But, creationism under the current cover of "intelligent design" have so far failed to scientifically prove any of their claims -- starting with the age of the Earth. If you can't get that right, you are starting on the wrong foot. Most of these people mean well, but they are like Islamic extremists in their ignorance and blind obedience to flawed literal interpretations. "Faith" does not require blind ignorance. If you find you are ignoring sound scientific evidence to practice your faith, you may want to rethink things -- if you are still cable of free thinking or free will.

A lot of these people see the extreme leftist domination of politics and media and run to misguided fundamentalism in fear. It's fine to seek shelter in your faith, but don't turn your brain off in the process.

236 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:35:32pm

re: #223 pre-Boomer Marine brat

As most of us leading investigators are supporters of ID, we use code language in the discussion of our peer-reviewed manuscripts. Most of it is added in to the galley-proof after the paper has been accepted. Things like, "enzyme X has a USEFUL PURPOSE" or "Protein X is WELL DESIGNED FOR ..."

237 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:35:39pm

re: #195 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Nope, he's nowhere NEAR good enough.

Stand-up colonic.

238 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:35:50pm

re: #231 CyanSnowHawk

BTW, what's your IQ?

Huh?

239 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:36:08pm

re: #215 Kulhwch

You know, running around screaming "Is too!" "Is too!" "Is too!" is not really a valid answer.

}:)     [Bet you have more to say about me undermining your religious views, don't you?]

Excellent entertainment for a Sunday morning. IMNSHO, this beats church all hollow. Thanks.

}:) [But then, my worship is different.]

And I'm sniping at religion by saying that my religion is different, how?

By saying other religions (church) is hollow.

240 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:36:48pm

re: #191 sattv4u2

So every person over the age of consent, every Christian, Jew, Buhddist, Muslim, Taoist, LDS, Hindi, Wingnut that BELEIVE in ID is actually KNOWINGLY lying ?

Yes, I think that most of them know they are lying. All it takes is five minutes to wrap your mind around how evolution-through-natural-selection works, and you go, "D'oh! Of course! it's so obvious!" But having done that, apparently a lot of people start to ponder the consequences of their relevation, and consciously backpedal and retreat from the truth.

Wow, guess the agnostics and atheiists are the only ones that can tell the TRUTH about it!

So you're syaing that every single person who accepts evolution as real is an agnostic or atheist? Fascinating theory!

241 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:06pm

re: #232 JamesWI


I don't know but my h-index is 40. What his yours? If you do not know what an h-index is then dont' waste my time and go get an education.

242 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:12pm

re: #236 george slivers

As most of us leading investigators are supporters of ID, we use code language in the discussion of our peer-reviewed manuscripts. Most of it is added in to the galley-proof after the paper has been accepted. Things like, "enzyme X has a USEFUL PURPOSE" or "Protein X is WELL DESIGNED FOR ..."

Are you a freshman or a sophomore?

243 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:15pm

re: #229 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Perhaps is real name is George Costanza, from Seinfeld fame. When George wanted to impress someone (read female) he would say he always wanted to pretend to be an architect or a marine biologist!

244 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:46pm

re: #236 george slivers

As most of us leading investigators are supporters of ID, we use code language in the discussion of our peer-reviewed manuscripts. Most of it is added in to the galley-proof after the paper has been accepted. Things like, "enzyme X has a USEFUL PURPOSE" or "Protein X is WELL DESIGNED FOR ..."

So- you have to use code words to describe what are in your own words what "real biologists" do- which is support ID. Your double talk is mind bogglingly inane.

245 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:49pm

re: #211 Iron Fist

,

The Constitution forbids the establishment of a State religion. I'm of the mind that that also forbids the establishment of Atheism as the Official State Religion. Yet that is what we are coming closer and closer to. That may not concern you, but it concerns me.

And it violates the Constitution as well.

I tend to agree with that. According to the wording of the First Amendment Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. You could make a case that many laws and regulations are out there that prohibit the free exercise of religion. In a way, its almost been twisted into saying you must worship as you wish, but only in a private place, not in public. And that is not what the original intent was.

246 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:55pm

re: #225 Sharmuta

It's not that you won't, it's that you can't.

No, somethings cannot be pulled up on a computer...it has to come from the heart, something you sorely lack.

247 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:55pm

re: #179 Maximu§

a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of.


How about the Jews. Do they need a "little" Jesus in their life too? We live in a society where it is unacceptable to force your religion on other people. What about the Muslims who think you need a little Allah in your life. Do they have the right to force it on you or are you advocating that you have special rights that the rest of us aren't entitled to?

248 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:02pm

re: #197 buzzsawmonkey

Nervous Norvus--"Ape Call"

The proper theme song for these threads.

I cannot believe that's on YouTube! I actually own that record! I thought I was the only one who even knew it existed.

It's extremely catchy, btw.

249 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:04pm

re: #241 george slivers

I don't know but my h-index is 40. What his yours? If you do not know what an h-index is then dont' waste my time and go get an education.

I ask you to provide an example of ID science, and you say "I don't know." Then you try to imply that I am uneducated. You sir, are a prick, and a liar.

250 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:24pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

What exactly do you have to do to become a genetic epidemiologist?

And can you name one specific ID break through?

251 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:33pm
re: #133 Mich-again
re: #111 Syrah

The strongest, smartest, and fastest can lose out to those that just reproduce more numerously.

True, look at human history. You can acquire land through power, but it takes people to occupy the land to keep it. Same kind of thing goes for reserving curb space at a big parade. You can hold onto territory for a while by telling people you are saving the spot, but if your friends don't get there soon enough the crowd will eventually move into the space.

Hell, just look at how the Islamacists are outbreeding those of other faiths in the countries of Europe, like Steyn pointed out in his book.

}:)     [If our current war isn't social evolution in action, I don't know what it is.]

252 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:36pm

re: #241 george slivers

I don't know but my h-index is 40. What his yours? If you do not know what an h-index is then dont' waste my time and go get an education.

Hubris-index, measured in powers of ten.

253 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:03pm

re: #243 sattv4u2

Perhaps is real name is George Costanza, from Seinfeld fame. When George wanted to impress someone (read female) he would say he always wanted to pretend to be an architect or a marine biologist!

Very possible.

254 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:11pm

re: #220 zombie

Stop! Yer killin' me!

HAHAHAHAHAHHA

255 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:23pm

George, that's not a Hirshi bar you're peddling.

256 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:28pm

re: #246 Maximu§

How very Christian of you.

257 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:43pm

re: #238 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Huh?

It sounds a little familiar, like an IQ boaster that was here and got banned last year sometime.

258 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:40:09pm

re: #169 george slivers

Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

500K to read the Bible?

259 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:40:12pm

re: #240 zombie

So you're syaing that every single person who accepts evolution as real is an agnostic or atheist? Fascinating theory!

no, , it was to show the folly of you asserting that everyone that believes in ID LYING. See how absolutes are dangerous?

260 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:40:58pm

re: #212 zombie

No one here believes that act anymore.


Suppose it is true. What a huge scandal it would be if the NIH was funding creationist research. I'd love to see some of his published studies. It would be an LGF exclusive.

261 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:41:34pm
262 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:41:38pm

re: #251 Kulhwch

Hell, just look at how the Islamacists are outbreeding those of other faiths in the countries of Europe, like Steyn pointed out in his book.

}:)     [If our current war isn't social evolution in action, I don't know what it is.]

Ahem - 'social evolution' is an expression dangerously close to the mindset of the 'progressives', as described very well in 'Liberal Fascism' ...

263 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:42:18pm

re: #198 george slivers

That wasn't nearly as "strong armed" as what has been done to scientists who are ID supporters. You need to watch "Expelled"

Ben Stein is okay in small doses. I won't criticize the movie since I won't be able to watch it.

Still, can you debunk the debunkers.

264 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:42:34pm

re: #249 JamesWI

I ask you to provide an example of ID science, and you say "I don't know." Then you try to imply that I am uneducated. You sir, are a prick, and a liar.

Actually, any study in biology or astrophysics supports ID. The fine tuning, the elaborate detail, the specified complexity, the irreducible complexity, etc.... ID, like Darwinian evolution, can't be proven with a single study. They are more of competing metatheories. ID just happens to fit the data better. But Darwinists have preconceved lenses they use to interpret their data and that is why they are usually individuals who dropped out of more rigorous scientific disciplines.

265 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:42:46pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

How about the Jews. Do they need a "little" Jesus in their life too? We live in a society where it is unacceptable to force your religion on other people. What about the Muslims who think you need a little Allah in your life. Do they have the right to force it on you or are you advocating that you have special rights that the rest of us aren't entitled to?

Nice try KT, but your argument leaves out one important fact. Christians are STILL the majority in America and we still call the shots. That may sound cruel, but do I believe America is Christianities last stronghold.

Europe has been conquered, the churches are empty and the Mosques are full and now the secularist are trying to do the same in America. This subject is one battle in an on-going war.

266 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:15pm

re: #154 VegasRick

Well now, you stated that "well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population......" and I said "And you have obambi to support". If you are going to throw me into that cult because of my beliefs than I think it fair to throw you into another cult because of yours.

And I do have a pretty good tan pasty boy.

The evidence supports his statement.

267 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:32pm

re: #259 sattv4u2

So you're syaing that every single person who accepts evolution as real is an agnostic or atheist? Fascinating theory!

no, , it was to show the folly of you asserting that everyone that believes in ID LYING. See how absolutes are dangerous?

"Yes, I think that most of them know they are lying."

He said "most".

268 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:38pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

Suppose it is true. What a huge scandal it would be if the NIH was funding creationist research. I'd love to see some of his published studies. It would be an LGF exclusive.

No, because if he actually gives even one example, he will be EXPELLED! (Cue the ominous music). Funny, I'd think if he didn't have any examples, the NIH would stop funding his great research, and if he had published anything, he would be "expelled" already. Another fascinating tale from the compulsive liar.

269 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:48pm

re: #149 george slivers

The decline of the American youth and the replacement of parents by big government is a direct result of Darwinists imposing their self-defeating ideology.

The big scare is the decline in science Darwinism has brought about. My junior research colleauges lack the critical thinking skills because they have been taught, "If it don't make sense, evolution did it". I coined it the "Darwin-of-the-gaps" approach to science.

So, would you continue this "trend" by usurping parental control over a child's faith upbringing by inserting the government's Dept of Ed approved version of faith into science classes?

270 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:51pm

re: #257 CyanSnowHawk

It sounds a little familiar, like an IQ boaster that was here and got banned last year sometime.

Something in my memory says this might be the guy who gave out a link to a "scientific" paper he'd written -- several weeks ago on an ID thread. The "paper" was utter crap.

Does anyone else recall that? Am I mistaken?

271 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:44:12pm

re: #264 george slivers

Actually, any study in biology or astrophysics supports ID. The fine tuning, the elaborate detail, the specified complexity, the irreducible complexity, etc.... ID, like Darwinian evolution, can't be proven with a single study. They are more of competing metatheories. ID just happens to fit the data better. But Darwinists have preconceved lenses they use to interpret their data and that is why they are usually individuals who dropped out of more rigorous scientific disciplines.

HAHAHA! Whoever said he was a stand-up comic was definitely right!

272 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:44:50pm

Have to go mow the lawn.....take care all.

273 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:44:57pm

We usually refer to call a partially rationalized thought as being "Half Baked". This is the classification I give and the apologists of Creationism and ID. It's a form of laziness not stupidity. This is what currently drives most of the worlds actions. Half Baked and Half Cocked ideas eventually have to meet reality and it's never pretty.

274 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:19pm

re: #272 Maximu§

Have to go mow the lawn.....take care all.

You forgot to exclude me, right?

275 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:20pm
276 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:29pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

Suppose it is true. What a huge scandal it would be if the NIH was funding creationist research. I'd love to see some of his published studies. It would be an LGF exclusive.

*grin*
Wow! Them 'd be some BUTTOCKS!

277 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:39pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

i certainly agree w/ your statement that the crop of teens we have today could use some religious teachings but maybe the best way for them to get that is in theology class, sunday school or from their parents.
rather than in a science class.

it seems like i.d.'s purpose in the class room is not to teach faith per se but just to disprove evolution. religion should not be threatened by science or compete w/ it. in a way, that demeans religion which i see as faith based and able to stand on its own.
imho.

278 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:40pm

re: #267 DeathtotheSwiss

"Yes, I think that most of them know they are lying."

He said "most".

and do you beleive that? "MOST", i.e. 50% plus one of ALL people the believe in ID?

Again, words have meaning (well, at least MOST words do)

279 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:57pm

re: #258 DeathtotheSwiss

500K to read the Bible?

Nice job if you can get it. Does walking down the aisle of a church at the same time qualify for a bonus?

280 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:46:22pm

re: #264 george slivers

Actually, any study in biology or astrophysics supports ID. The fine tuning, the elaborate detail, the specified complexity, the irreducible complexity, etc.... ID, like Darwinian evolution, can't be proven with a single study. They are more of competing metatheories. ID just happens to fit the data better. But Darwinists have preconceved lenses they use to interpret their data and that is why they are usually individuals who dropped out of more rigorous scientific disciplines.

So, if every science besides evolutionary biology is filled with ID proponents, how exactly do you propose that you (and anyone else who proposes ID related science) would be "expelled" from the scientific community? It's hard to kick people out when they are apparently vastly outnumbered, or so you claim.

281 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:46:25pm

re: #269 reine.de.tout

So, would you continue this "trend" by usurping parental control over a child's faith upbringing by inserting the government's Dept of Ed approved version of faith into science classes?

It doesn't have to be an "either/or" Teach both and teach the controversy. Or be a tyrannical coward and impose only one viewpoint.

282 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:46:33pm
283 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:46:57pm

re: #169 george slivers

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Do tell? What is the nature of this ID-related research?

284 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:47:19pm

re: #275 buzzsawmonkey

He is simultaneously well-funded, and persecuted by Darwinian zealots. So there is some Mittyesque complexity for sure.

285 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:47:51pm
re: #159 VegasRick
re: #146 Kulhwch

Would have to be twice as good as sex with you, sir.

}:) [And I'm not the one spontaneously wanking in the thread.]

Blow me.

Oh, you wish.  That's exactly the type of well-thought-out and intellectual response I expected to get from you.

}:)     [You may need to troll somewhere else to get a date, sweetheart.]

286 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:47:54pm

re: #265 Maximu§

Christians are STILL the majority in America and we still call the shots. That may sound cruel, but do I believe America is Christianities last stronghold.


Wow, Christian supremicism on display. If you've ever wondered why Christians still make Jews nervous look no further than your arrogance. Christians do not get special rights under our Constitution. Our country was not set up that way because it's unfair to everybody else. Which version of Christianity are you advocating we force on everybody? Lutheran, Baptist or Catholic?

287 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:11pm

re: #224 Killian Bundy

And consistently going down in legal flames with every attempt, a persistent nuisance, nothing more.

/not even showing up on radar as far as exigent threats to the U.S. public education system are concerned

It's not the threat to the puboic education system so much, but what I've explained here dozens of times:

The creationist movement is threatening to destroy conservatism in the United States. If we don't distance ourselves from creationists, we will go down in flames ourselves, politically.

Out in the mediasphere and the court of public opinion, creationism is, at a minimum, completely laughable, and at a maximum possibly dangerous if not stopped. And it is (accurately, unfortunately) associated exclusively with "conservative voters." It is iused to bash us relentlessly, and believe me the Left will not stop using this to bash us as long as they are able.

We need to grab the middle in the election to win. And with creationism dragging around behind us on the ground like some grotesque tumor, we're not going to succeed at that.

288 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:24pm

re: #268 JamesWI

Agreed.

289 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:36pm

re: #127 Maximu§

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

I get the impression, reading comments on this issue, that many see the solution in schools. My personal life experience, and that of my children was that matters of morality, ethics and, dare I say faith, were learned from the home more than anywhere else. If we truly expect that the school system is to be the primary teacher of such matters, then we might as well go all the way and call ourselves communists, without responsibility for our own lives.

Of course educating incompetent parents in parenting is not either the responsibility of the state, but educating them in something as simple and basic as birth control most certainly is, since the worst of those losers on the street corners are invariably children of children, and largely supported by all of us.

Who is guilty? Perhaps the Pope is a good place to start with someone whose head is stuck firmly in the sand when it comes to the realities of human sexuality.

As to Islam, that approach won't work, since their objection to birth control is firmly rooted in the objective of out breeding and outnumbering everyone else.

290 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:48pm

re: #284 jaunte

He is simultaneously well-funded, and persecuted by Darwinian zealots. So there is some Mittyesque complexity for sure.

How very apt that you recall Mitty.

291 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:55pm

You know, I've been hesitant to reveal this up until now, but "george slivers" has shown me the way.

I am actually an aeronautical engineer, and all of my breakthrough research (funded by NASA, that's your tax dollars) has been based on anti-gravity powered UFOs that we're keeping at Area 51.

So now it's out there.

292 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:49:37pm

I would think if "George Slivers" is getting taxpayer funds from the NIH, he has to have some published peer reviewed research to back getting my money for research. So where are the papers George? Or are you perpertrating a fraud on the US Gov't.?

293 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:49:47pm

re: #265 Maximu§

Nice try KT, but your argument leaves out one important fact. Christians are STILL the majority in America and we still call the shots. That may sound cruel, but do I believe America is Christianities last stronghold.

Europe has been conquered, the churches are empty and the Mosques are full and now the secularist are trying to do the same in America. This subject is one battle in an on-going war.

I sympathize with this position. Still, denying physical reality is the quickest way to eliminate a religion. Without a harmony between Christianity and science, the battle won't be going to the believers favor.

294 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:05pm

re: #233 Maximu§

No, but maybe they [children] can learn something about Faith

Great. Go ahead and teach them. Why do you want the government to do it?

295 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:38pm

re: #233 Maximu§

No, but maybe they can learn something about Faith....that little thing inside of us Christians that sends us all over the world to feed the poor, build houses and try to make the world a better place.

I saw an old Mexican woman in a Catholic Church one day and on her knee's she went from the back of the chuch to the front reading from the Bible every step of the way...it took her hours and I was awed.

Thats Faith.

You like the ACLU? Because your supporting their positions right here and now.

Compassion is a HUMAN trait. If you want to argue it started with religion, it came before yours then.

I have no problem teaching children compassion via more social programs like reading to the elderly or feeding the homeless, but they should be free of religious doctrine or ideology. Children need to know that no matter their religion or lack thereof, compassion is a virtue.

And yes, I like the ACLU. The ACLU took up the fight in Pennsylvania. Do I like everything they do? No.

296 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:38pm

re: #290 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Well... I did write the character, while flying my jet, with my wife Morgan Fairchild by my side, taking down dictation for my significant research./

297 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:41pm

re: #280 JamesWI

So, if every science besides evolutionary biology is filled with ID proponents, how exactly do you propose that you (and anyone else who proposes ID related science) would be "expelled" from the scientific community? It's hard to kick people out when they are apparently vastly outnumbered, or so you claim.


You are putting words in my mouth. I said that under-achievers go into Darwinism becuase it they lack critical thinking skills to do real science. Most scientists, simply do not care. If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues. You learn to pick your fights carefully in academics.

298 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:58pm

re: #284 jaunte

He is simultaneously well-funded, and persecuted by Darwinian zealots. So there is some Mittyesque complexity for sure.

tapocketa pocketa pocketa

299 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:51:17pm

re: #265 Maximu§

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Christians are STILL the majority in America and we still call the shots.

MAX,

As a practicing Roman Catholic I find that statement troubling. This country was founded on the principle that the majority did NOT call the shots. That is why it was set up as a representative republic, not a democracy
In a democracy, you can have 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what to have for dinner !

300 willowone  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:51:36pm

i'm very appreciative of the combined knowledge on this topic by room members, when it first appeared as a topic i was confused why, and the rangling between members.
anyway my gratefulness came slowly i was pained to see the anger and frustration by both sides defending their argument. truth must win out, i don't feel very happy with the idea of my children being taught false ideas in any subject.
killgore responses were excellant and helped clarify a great reason for me. but the most important to me is that we don't allow our children to be taught ideas that won't hold up if that becomes their field of choice, what would be then have been the use of education .
education should remain at all times provable fact.
as a religious person i don't feel fearful that my children will fall out of love with G-d or be weakened by truth.
in fact i believe this gives more energy to study G-d harder, and that is exciting in itself.

301 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:12pm

re: #287 zombie

The creationist movement is threatening to destroy conservatism in the United States. If we don't distance ourselves from creationists, we will go down in flames ourselves, politically.

Bingo. It's a poison pill.

302 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:21pm

re: #287 zombie

The creationist movement is threatening to destroy conservatism in the United States. If we don't distance ourselves from creationists, we will go down in flames ourselves, politically.

/funny, that's the first time I've heard or read that Creationism is an issue in this election cycle

303 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:22pm
304 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:28pm

re: #287 zombie

Absolutely spot on.

I also see it as a threat generally against science - together with algoreism, which is now starting to be debunked.
In the minds of the general public these two, taken together, can and will do enormous damage to all scientific endeavours, and we might well end up with a pre-scientific mindset, based on irrationalism.

305 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:29pm

Although we differ on matters of faith, I hope we agree on matters of character, such Courage, Loyalty, Justice, Respect, Hope, Honesty, and Love.

This is what our district offers:

[Link: www.heartwoodethics.org...]

306 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:53:08pm

re: #299 sattv4u2

America protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

307 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:53:12pm

re: #297 george slivers

You are putting words in my mouth. I said that under-achievers go into Darwinism becuase it they lack critical thinking skills to do real science. Most scientists, simply do not care. If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues. You learn to pick your fights carefully in academics.

Huh. So if "real" scientists don't care about evolution vs. creationism, they pick the side of the "lesser/incompetent" scientists? Some logic skills you've got there.

308 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:53:37pm

re: #305 goddessoftheclassroom

Although we differ on matters of faith, I hope we agree on matters of character, such Courage, Loyalty, Justice, Respect, Hope, Honesty, and Love.

This is what our district offers:

[Link: www.heartwoodethics.org...]

I always wanted to play the Cowardly Lion. Where's my mane?

309 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:53:46pm

re: #291 Occasional Reader

You know, I've been hesitant to reveal this up until now, but "george slivers" has shown me the way.

I am actually an aeronautical engineer, and all of my breakthrough research (funded by NASA, that's your tax dollars) has been based on anti-gravity powered UFOs that we're keeping at Area 51.

So now it's out there.



You have proof? Cool!

310 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:54:29pm

A Tribute to George Slivers:

The decline of the American youth and the replacement of parents by big government is a direct result of Darwinists imposing their self-defeating ideology.

Note how he expertly avoids explaining how "Darwinism" (the outdated version of Evolution that has since been updated and revised) is...self-defeating idelogy. And how exactly does an observation about bones and species count as an "ideology"?

You don't understand the hierarchy of research these days. If you fail at math, logic, chemistry, physics, biology, etc. You go into evolutionary biology and stand at a podium preaching Darwinism.

Nobody's preaching Darwinism, but here's a nice bit of reverse psychology. If you suck at math and logic then you're going to "fall" for the idiotic idea that creatures change over the course of a few million years.

No one may be teaching ID becuase of the ACLU and the liberal tyranny and oppresion we suffer in science.

Always watch out for that darn oppresion. Becuase the darn ACLU is sooooo against teaching real scizenze!

I'm defending good science (ID) from those who bear false witness (Darwinists)

How exactly is ID science? What is the definition of good science then?

Actually, any study in biology or astrophysics supports ID. The fine tuning, the elaborate detail, the specified complexity, the irreducible complexity, etc.... ID, like Darwinian evolution, can't be proven with a single study. They are more of competing metatheories. ID just happens to fit the data better. But Darwinists have preconceved lenses they use to interpret their data and that is why they are usually individuals who dropped out of more rigorous scientific disciplines.

ID fits what data better? The Bible? The Koran?

And can you name a few Evolutionary Biologists/Paleontologists who, as you say, dropped out of the more rigorous scientific disciplines? Or are you going to continue being completely dishonest and silly?

311 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:54:47pm

re: #296 jaunte

Well... I did write the character, while flying my jet, with my wife Morgan Fairchild by my side, taking down dictation for my significant research./

Yes, NOW I remember you! I gave you your first pink slip for that story, back when you tried to crash the gate at San Simeon.

312 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:55:17pm

re: #297 george slivers

You are putting words in my mouth. I said that under-achievers go into Darwinism becuase it they lack critical thinking skills to do real science. Most scientists, simply do not care. If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues. You learn to pick your fights carefully in academics.

Clearly you are not picking your fight here very carefully, but then again clearly this is not quite academia, nor are you an academic.

I smell a troll.

313 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:55:23pm

re: #283 Slumbering Behemoth

Do tell? What is the nature of this ID-related research?

You heartless bastard! If he tells us that, he'll be hunted down by the relentless Darwinist hit squads!

314 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:11pm

re: #291 Occasional Reader

You know, I've been hesitant to reveal this up until now, but "george slivers" has shown me the way.

I am actually an aeronautical engineer, and all of my breakthrough research (funded by NASA, that's your tax dollars) has been based on anti-gravity powered UFOs that we're keeping at Area 51.

So now it's out there.

Gee, this could get to be FUN!
Thanks, George!

315 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:12pm

re: #297 george slivers

"If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues."
I think you're outing yourself here, as a non-scientist. Scientists don't much care about "keeping the peace." They get rewarded for poking effective holes in someone else's work.

316 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:13pm

re: #278 sattv4u2

and do you beleive that? "MOST", i.e. 50% plus one of ALL people the believe in ID?

Again, words have meaning (well, at least MOST words do)

I believe MOST people don't understand science or math. Which is why I'm going to do my best to give my son a good start in both.

Deep Blue (BBC) and The Universe (History Channel)...and I guess I'll go with PBS and myself for math!

317 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:23pm
re: #172 Mich-again
re: #146 Kulhwch
re: #78 VegasRick

Most folks here don't want to read that, they would rather snipe at religion and it's teachings and whoever this "Kulhwch" person is can go screw themselves.

Would have to be twice as good as sex with you, sir.

}:) [And I'm not the one spontaneously wanking in the thread.]

Do you ever have anything meaningful to add?
You remind me of Grover Dill. He was Scott Farkas' little toadie in a Christmas Story.

Well, old son, it was a clear case of GIGO, as one can clearly see.  VegasRick tossed garbage at me, I tossed it back.  You jumped in because the notion of a fair fight is foreign to your nature.

}:)     [Gonna call me a skank now that we've disagreed?]

318 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:27pm
319 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:54pm

re: #312 Naso Tang

Clearly you are not picking your fight here very carefully, but then again clearly this is not quite academia, nor are you an academic.

I smell a troll.

Well, either a troll or a lying moron. Either way, perhaps we all should just start ignoring him.

320 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:58:08pm

re: #303 buzzsawmonkey

In that case, you should be arguing for the introduction of religious teaching in gym class

You're referring of course to... cross-training.

/rimshot

321 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:58:10pm

re: #217 george slivers

re: #204 Basho

Give us the name and date of one peer-reviewed journal you have been published in so that we may read about your "breakthroughs."



Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

If what you say is true, than how did you manage to get a gov't grant for "ID-related research" in such an environment? Did you steal that money?

322 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:58:32pm

re: #315 jaunte

"If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues."
I think you're outing yourself here, as a non-scientist. Scientists don't much care about "keeping the peace." They get rewarded for poking effective holes in someone else's work.

No, we love poking holes in other peoples work in our field of study. Not an areas we lack published expertise.

323 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:59:38pm

re: #319 JamesWI

Well, either a troll or a lying moron. Either way, perhaps we all should just start ignoring him.

Everyone is an equal opportunity target and none should miss a chance at fame just because they may be morons. That would be discriminatory.

324 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:59:49pm
re: #177 Tigger2005
re: #166 Tigger2005

You're lying.

Let me elaborate on that.

You're telling bald-faced, brazen, naked lies.

LYING.

Bearing false witness.

I believe Yahweh frowns on that.

And yet the behavior is so damned pervasive in these sorts of threads, no?

}:)     [Fundamentalists.  Go figure.]

325 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:00:19pm

re: #281 george slivers

It doesn't have to be an "either/or" Teach both and teach the controversy. Or be a tyrannical coward and impose only one viewpoint.

It is an either/or. ID is faith-based belief in how we were created. Evolution is the scientific process by which life developed.

I do not want the religion du jour being taught to my child at school. Her religious education is my right, my responsibility to see to (or not, as I see fit!). It is not yours to dictate to me, and I resent anyone who wishes to ram their version of faith down my throat, through my child, while simultaneously watering down real science in the process. It is wrong.

326 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:00:22pm

re: #322 george slivers

No, we love poking holes in other peoples work in our field of study. Not an areas we lack published expertise.

You lack published expertise in evolution, genetics and paleontology.

327 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:00:27pm

re: #320 Occasional Reader

grooooaaan!

328 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:00:37pm

re: #306 Sharmuta

America protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

God bless our founding fathers :)

I see through this argument very plainly. It's an effort to convert non-Christians into Christianity. And unlucky as it may be for them, it ain't gonna happen.

329 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:01:06pm

re: #321 Slumbering Behemoth

If what you say is true, than how did you manage to get a gov't grant for "ID-related research" in such an environment? Did you steal that money?

They fund him, as a way of trying to destroy him. It's all part of the conspiracy, I tellsya.

330 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:02:43pm

re: #310 DeathtotheSwiss

A Tribute to George Slivers:


ID fits what data better? The Bible? The Koran?

And can you name a few Evolutionary Biologists/Paleontologists who, as you say, dropped out of the more rigorous scientific disciplines? Or are you going to continue being completely dishonest and silly?


You need to go to the Discovery Institute Summer School to learn how ID fits scientific discovery far better than a mindless random mutation natural selection ideology.

I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric.

331 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:02:59pm

GOP Debate - Evolution Question

Obviously an ambush question from a Bonkey operative.

/anyway, please note the Republican nominee's enthusiastic answer, not an issue in the upcoming election

332 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:28pm
re: #178 pre-Boomer Marine brat
re: #160 zombie

Ah yes, who could ever forget Joe Mendi, the Scopes Trial chimpanzee!

Yes. I remember reading various articles, from various points of view, and thinking that I simply could NOT imagine what the street scenes must have looked and sounded like.

I think there's newsreel footage around somewhere that shows what it was like.  I seem to remember seeing it somewhere.  I just watched the older (Spencer Tracy/Gene Kelly) version of To Inherit The Wind just the other day, and I'm half-convinced they must have done a good job of depicting it in the film.

}:)     [Haven't seen the Jack Lemmon 1999 version yet, though.]

333 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:29pm

re: #321 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #329 Occasional Reader

I asked this earlier. Does the NIH now just give money to people for research without peer reviewed work to ensure that the NIH isn't just pissing the money away?

334 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:47pm

re: #281 george slivers

It doesn't have to be an "either/or" Teach both and teach the controversy. Or be a tyrannical coward and impose only one viewpoint.

there is only one valid point of view: evolution.
i.d. does not qualify as science.
it is a procedure of nit picking at an established theory.
it nips at the facts we already have and tries to disprove them.
that is not science.

335 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:48pm

George Slivers: The Sleeper Troll

Registered since: Aug 11, 2007 at 9:44 am

No. of comments posted: 70
No. of links posted: 0
Show Comments Within Last 7 Days

336 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:56pm

re: #322 george slivers

No, we love poking holes in other peoples work in our field of study. Not an areas we lack published expertise.

Aha!
Its not a scientist - its an administrator: its choice of words shows that clearly!

337 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:14pm

re: #302 Killian Bundy

/funny, that's the first time I've heard or read that Creationism is an issue in this election cycle

Not so much in this cycle (at least not in the Presidential race), but I suspect that his support for an ID-friendly bill could hurt the future national ticket viability of the otherwise promsing Bobby Jindal.

338 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:31pm

re: #318 buzzsawmonkey

The thought police are after him. He's a regular Darwinston Smith.

More like the Dream Police.

339 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:44pm

re: #330 george slivers

You need to go to the Discovery Institute Summer School to learn how ID fits scientific discovery far better than a mindless random mutation natural selection ideology.

I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric.

Hah! Yeah you're a troll but a funny one. Will be sad if you were banned.

340 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:48pm

re: #330 george slivers

I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric [sic].

Classic.

Rotating title? Or too long?

341 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:59pm

re: #330 george slivers

enlightening retoric

Yes, indeed.

342 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:05:18pm

re: #340 Occasional Reader


Seconded!

343 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:05:22pm

re: #331 Killian Bundy

Was Ron Paul not there? He should have raised his hand, he's a creationist too.

344 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:05:46pm

re: #330 george slivers

You need to go to the Discovery Institute Summer School to learn how ID fits scientific discovery far better than a mindless random mutation natural selection ideology.

I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric.

I think we just found our proof of where this "scientist" gets his "research" published - The Discovery Institute.

345 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:05:47pm

Does the Discovery Institute have a summer school? And do you think the Navy with pay me to go?

346 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:06:18pm

re: #345 DeathtotheSwiss

will pay me to go...

ahem.

347 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:06:32pm

re: #246 Maximu§

No, somethings cannot be pulled up on a computer...it has to come from the heart, something you sorely lack.

You're a piece of work. Sharmuta has more heart in her pinky finger than you have in your entire body. I'd wager more brains as well.

348 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:06:37pm

re: #333 pingjockey

re: #329 Occasional Reader

I asked this earlier. Does the NIH now just give money to people for research without peer reviewed work to ensure that the NIH isn't just pissing the money away?

If I actually thought for a moment that slivers was doing anything other than telling laugh-out-loud hilarious whoppers through his teeth, I could actually fact-check this. I know quite a lot of people doing research at NIH.

349 6:18  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:06:41pm

Charles I do believe that you are intellectually dishonest.

You spend hours planning, thinking, revising, basically 'designing' your website.

Why oh, why, do you turn around and deny someone the cognitive credibility to say that this universe, indeed, Charles Johnson, et al., was 'intelligently designed'?

Man, you've lost your 'gravitas' with me, not for disagreeing but for so vehemently 'humuddling*' believers in intelligent design.

*hummudle - to humiliate with the objective of muddling the actual facts or arguments.
introduced for the first time here and now by me

350 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:07:06pm

re: #317 Kulhwch
All that I see from you at this point are a series of personal attacks in an attempt to prove to others how superior you believe you are. Such as this phrase

"That's exactly the type of well-thought-out and intellectual response I expected to get from you."

Which you imply that you hold the only Intellectual Position here but avoid commenting on those who challenge your perceived supremacy. You are here not to discuss the subject but to be little others to demonstrate your prose. Throwing out acronyms that you assume everyone knows GIGO. You are behaving just like a Liberal elitists who happens to be an atheist. You have to degrade others intelligence in order to make your self feel good.

You Sir, are just an Asshole.

351 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:07:09pm

re: #345 DeathtotheSwiss

Does the Discovery Institute have a summer school? And do you think the Navy with pay me to go?

I "go" for free. Flushing, however, costs money!

352 ornery elephant  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:07:17pm

Perhaps I'm wrong here but it seems to me that many have missed the real reasons behind the push for Creationism in schools. Much to the dismay of paranoid atheists, I think the crux of it comes from a faith-based recognition that Christianity and Judaism are under attack in America. I don't believe in this fairy tale of some back room full of some sinister evangelicals conspiring to write into a science book that Darwin was demented.

The fact of the matter is many faith-based people have seen the onslaught against religion in our society and some have decided to put up a fight before the fiddler fiddles over a burning rome. Christians have seen any form of worship outside of the basement of a locked church attacked and brought to the courts. We have seen islamists get footbaths put into public colleges, we've seen "Islamic appreciation days" in elementary schools, we've seen the Planned Parenthood agenda put into schools with the Condom Demo Friday, we've seen Islamic Prayer rooms in public community colleges, we've seen madrassas publicly funded, we've seen prayer and references to G_d and observations of religious holidays banned from the public forum.

Isn't it just a possibility that Intelligent Design is an overeaction from some who fear that at some point in time, a Christian or a Jew will need to go underground in this land to worship? Isn't it possible that the separation of Church and State was meant to keep the government from dictating religion...and not the other way around?

The argument that any insertion of religious thought into schools would open the door to any and all religions being brought up there is mute - we're already there. The atheists' mission to banish the worship of G_d in every aspect of society has enabled the ACLU to mandate islamic meals in schools and the other instances detailed above.

The Left says the evangelicals are to fear while they have celebrated nothing but 100% wins in banning any form of religious reference in this land.

Sorry for the long post.

353 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:07:30pm

re: #325 reine.de.tout

It is an either/or. ID is faith-based belief in how we were created. Evolution is the scientific process by which life developed.

I do not want the religion du jour being taught to my child at school. Her religious education is my right, my responsibility to see to (or not, as I see fit!). It is not yours to dictate to me, and I resent anyone who wishes to ram their version of faith down my throat, through my child, while simultaneously watering down real science in the process. It is wrong.

Unfortunately, you have been the victim of a largely successful propoganda campaign by Darwinian fundamentalists who like to keep their strangle hold on the big questions about life. ID does not nor should it promote any religion. It simply argues that a non-random intelligence better explainst the data (diversity of life, biological mechanisms, fine tuning of the universe, etc)

Thanks for the respectful attitude in this debate.

354 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:08:02pm

re: #336 yma o hyd

Aha!
Its not a scientist - its an administrator: its choice of words shows that clearly!

And the wording of this could be another indicator. Sounds like it's someone on the outside looking in.

we love poking holes

355 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:08:11pm

re: #349 6:18

Registered since: Feb 14, 2005 at 4:31 pm

No. of comments posted: 48

356 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:08:56pm

re: #189 Egfrow

That was a comment aimed towards the so called "Blue States" and was stated in that context and not toward you personally. I don't know you and can only judge from what you type here. I personally don't like to make judgments ideas that are held and am always willing to engage in discussion unless hostility ensues.

Well, hell sir, then let's be friends.  I'm always willing to extend my hand to any person who acts rational, educated, and seems to have common sense (which you and I know is actually an oxymoron, common sense isn't common).  I admit, I didn't know what to make of you at first, but I am becoming a bigger fan of your words every second.

}:)     [I've been updinging most of your posts since the 1st, as a matter of fact.]

357 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:09:07pm

re: #349 6:18

hummudle -
introduced for the first time here and now by

Don't hold your breath. When the phone doesn't ring, it's Websters!

358 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:09:22pm

re: #340 Occasional Reader

Classic.

Rotating title? Or too long?

"enlightening retoric" works by itself

359 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:09:24pm

re: #343 Killgore Trout

Was Ron Paul not there? He should have raised his hand, he's a creationist too.

Well, there's no way he evolved, that seems evident.

I lean towards Luap Nor being a self-made man in the literal rather than colloquial meaning.

360 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:10:49pm

re: #169 george slivers

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Was ID mentioned in the proposal?

361 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:11:22pm

re: #357 sattv4u2

hummudle -
introduced for the first time here and now by

Don't hold your breath. When the phone doesn't ring, it's Websters!

Do you think my arrugalant has a chance? Sounds like you have an inside track to the Powers That Be.

362 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:11:30pm

re: #349 6:18

You're completely off-base. The question is not about what anyone believes, but what religious ideas get pushed into science classes.

363 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:11:48pm

re: #352 ornery elephant

Christians have seen any form of worship outside of the basement of a locked church attacked and brought to the courts.

BWAAAHAHAHAHA

You know, it's funny, I can switch on my t.v. practically any hour of the day and see Christian services and/or Christian preaching being broadcast nationwide. I see Presidential candidates have to angle for the seal of approval of Christian churches if they want to have a prayer (pun intended) of winning. And yet if you want to believe you're meeting in secret in the Catacombs to avoid persecution, if that's what makes you happy... well, who am I to deny you that.

364 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:11:59pm

re: #349 6:18

hummudle yourself.

No one here is denying you that ability, or that right. You are the one who's ... "hummudling".

365 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:06pm

re: #349 6:18

Why oh, why, do you turn around and deny someone the cognitive credibility to say that this universe, indeed, Charles Johnson, et al., was 'intelligently designed'?

What the hell are you talking about. He's talking specifically about these particular groups attempts and bullshit half baked arguments at discrediting real science. Intelligent Design is what they have relabeled Creationism. He is not saying anything against anyones personal believe of the subject. That is a HUGE distinction.

366 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:08pm

re: #353 george slivers

ID does not nor should it promote any religion. It simply argues that a non-random intelligence better explainst the data (diversity of life, biological mechanisms, fine tuning of the universe, etc)

If it is a non-random intelligence doing the work, then how did it come into existence in the first place? What mechanisms were used?

367 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:14pm

re: #343 Killgore Trout

Was Ron Paul not there? He should have raised his hand, he's a creationist too.

Maybe he's a Creationist who also believes in evolution. How many times does Charles have to remind you (and everyone else) that the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

/in fact, only a very small percentage of "Creationists" (YEC) foolishly believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and that man walked with dinosaurs, please stop painting all Christians with the YEC brush

368 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:43pm

re: #353 george slivers

fine tuning of the universe

That one's always my favorite.

Tell me, what would an "out of tune" universe look like?

369 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:44pm

re: #360 itellu3times

Was ID mentioned in the proposal?


My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statements.

Most reviewers only look at the specific aims anyhow.

370 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:51pm

re: #357 sattv4u2

hummudle -
introduced for the first time here and now by

Don't hold your breath. When the phone doesn't ring, it's Websters!

It was certain proud of that word, wasn't it.

/motive

371 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:13:42pm

re: #352 ornery elephant

Religion belongs in the Church. Send them to Sunday School or a private school. These are publicly funded schools from tax payers. My parents did this for me. God = Church, Science =Schools. Very simple.

372 Grandma  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:13:48pm

Not having read all the posts about this subject, nor all the comments, it just occurs to me that there’s some sort of narcissistic arrogance amongst any group who would get all excited on how this Earth was created. What the heck do any of them know, anyhow? And who really cares? Accept that it has been created somehow, and let’s just get on with important stuff.
I think its past time that the Dept. of Education be renamed to the Dept. of Donkey Dust.
When our little kiddies are very young, they are taught how to “tell time”. But put them in front of an analog clock, especially one with a 24-hour measurement, and they’re all confused. Don’t even try one with Roman numerals, they’ll freak! Somehow the dimension of time happened, and we sorry humans can barely even measure it correctly; if we could we wouldn’t have to add a day in February every four years to set it all straight. So who are these “great thinkers" who educate our kiddies on greater concepts, who can’t even understand the dimension of time? And these are the folks who’d educate our children on how all the rest happened?

373 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:15:00pm

re: #360 itellu3times

Was ID mentioned in the proposal?

Of course it was. He made sure that it was prominently featured on page 1 of the proposal, just before dispatching it via magic unicorn courier to NIH headquarters in Bethesda.

374 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:15:24pm

re: #361 OldLineTexan

Do you think my arrugalant has a chance? Sounds like you have an inside track to the Powers That Be.

If by the Powers That Be, you mean my wife, the last time I had an inside track with her was when i said "I DO", since then not so much !

As for "ARRUGALANT". Sounds like arrogant arugula, so perhaps

375 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:15:29pm

re: #353 george slivers

Unfortunately, you have been the victim of a largely successful propoganda campaign by Darwinian fundamentalists who like to keep their strangle hold on the big questions about life. ID does not nor should it promote any religion. It simply argues that a non-random intelligence better explainst the data (diversity of life, biological mechanisms, fine tuning of the universe, etc)

Thanks for the respectful attitude in this debate.

No, I am not unfortunate, and no, I am not the "victim" of anything, and it is arrogant to suggest that I am.

I am a person of faith, whose faith has been attacked from time to time as not being "true Christianity", and I will not tolerate somebody else's ideas being planted into my child's head, in school, by people who believe differently from what I believe, by people who are not certified to teach theology and the tenets of my faith.

It is perfectly reasonable for one to believe that God created all, including the complexities of the world that are explained by science, and also believe in that very science.

376 FrogMarch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:16:02pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

Read the whole thing.

/the real clear and present danger to the American public education system

NEA resolutions cover the waterfront of all sorts of political issues that have nothing to do with improving education for schoolchildren, such as supporting statehood for the District of Columbia, a "single-payer health care plan" (i.e., government run), gun control, ratification of the International Criminal Court Treaty and taking steps "to change activities that contribute to global climate change."

The NEA fiercely opposes any competition for public schools, such as vouchers, tuition tax credits, parental option plans or public support of any kind to nonpublic schools. The NEA strongly opposes designating English as our official language even though such a designation is supported by more than 80% of Americans.

The liberal/leftist NEA doesn't care about poor children in failing inner city schools. They only care about their repulsive political agenda: Socialism.

377 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:16:19pm

re: #369 george slivers

My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statements.

Okay, that's it. Peacekeeper, is that you? You had us going there for a while, buddy.

378 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:17:26pm

re: #366 Basho

If it is a non-random intelligence doing the work, then how did it come into existence in the first place? What mechanisms were used?

That is like asking where the big bang came from. Evolutionists can't explain where the first organism came from. Abiogensis is a joke.

Think about what your saying. You have no problem with a random process but an intelligent process explaining the diversity of life scares you. Why?

379 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:17:51pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

Suppose it is true. What a huge scandal it would be if the NIH was funding creationist research. I'd love to see some of his published studies. It would be an LGF exclusive.

I've never heard of NIH funding creationist research.

However, DARPA every now and then will fund certified nutcases into stuff like zero-point power and the like, IEEE Spectrum even published a credulous story on one back some years ago. Why they do so, I am not privy. Not to mention cold fusion.

Then again, we have astronauts, not to mention presidential candidates, who see aliens.

380 willowone  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:18:39pm

re: #352 ornery elephant
no disrespect meant in this, but that in itself is a valuable reason to keep religion out of our public schools
we are very fortunate to have shuls, churches, and respective religios meeting places where we can discuss our ideas and love for our respective g-ds without fearing a public institution teaching our children or attempting to convert to a specific religious ideal.
i hope this helps, or makes sense.
and if i offended i'm sorry. truly

381 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:19:35pm

re: #362 jaunte

You're completely off-base. The question is not about what anyone believes, but what religious ideas get pushed into science classes.

That is indeed the question. Unfortunately, the argument typically dissolves into insults and degradation lightly frosted with generalizations.

There is only one answer that will work, even though as a Christian and a Southern Baptist, I am no doubt a fundamentalist or even worse, a fundie in many minds.

No religion in public schools is the ONLY WAY to keep madrassahs in check. If your kids need a religious education, use a private school that matches your beliefs. This is why I support vouchers, but would not personally use them. ID has been shown to be a religious topic without a doubt. I already have to guard my kids against the non-religious religion of the left, secular humanism. I do not want to get embroiled in battling everyone else, too.

382 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:19:37pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout

It is perfectly reasonable for one to believe that God created all, including the complexities of the world that are explained by science, and also believe in that very science.

You're not getting it. Surely the god that created the universe, is all-knowing, is all-powerful, and could do anything he pleases could never use evolution to create a diverse ecosystem.

/s

383 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:19:46pm

re: #369 george slivers

My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statements.

Most reviewers only look at the specific aims anyhow.


Clearly, then, grammer and English composition skills are no longer required for PhD candidacy...

384 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:20:25pm

re: #363 Occasional Reader

BWAAAHAHAHAHA

You know, it's funny, I can switch on my t.v. practically any hour of the day and see Christian services and/or Christian preaching being broadcast nationwide. I see Presidential candidates have to angle for the seal of approval of Christian churches if they want to have a prayer (pun intended) of winning. And yet if you want to believe you're meeting in secret in the Catacombs to avoid persecution, if that's what makes you happy... well, who am I to deny you that.

I'm being oppressed!

385 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:20:29pm

re: #379 itellu3times

I see an alien right here in the room. Can I run for President?

386 Charles  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:20:42pm

re: #369 george slivers

My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statements.

Heh.

387 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:20:51pm

re: #368 Occasional Reader

That one's always my favorite.

Tell me, what would an "out of tune" universe look like?

Detroit, perhaps Chicago.

388 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:21:09pm
re: #191 sattv4u2
re: #165 zombie

They are lies. Any [adult in the position of being teacher] must {know they are lies}.

So [every person over the age of consent, every Christian, Jew, Buhddist, Muslim, Taoist, LDS, Hindi, Wingnut that BELEIVE in ID] is {actually KNOWINGLY lying}?

Ah, that Fundamentalist Transitional Lying Slide.  Take one statement, misrepresent it highly (i.e., fucking lie), and then pawn it off as what was said, then crow like a cock when you appear to 'defeat' it.  By the way, the emphasis was added by yours truly.

Wow, guess the agnostics and atheiists are the only ones that can tell the TRUTH about it!

It sure does appear that that might be the case, given how the fundamentalists are lying about it.  Note, too, how good Xians that don't have a problem with evolution, etc., are being just swept under the rug in this reasoning (sic).

}:)     [Tsk, tsk, tsk ... lying for their Lord ... ]

389 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:21:12pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout

No, I am not unfortunate, and no, I am not the "victim" of anything, and it is arrogant to suggest that I am.

I am a person of faith, whose faith has been attacked from time to time as not being "true Christianity", and I will not tolerate somebody else's ideas being planted into my child's head, in school, by people who believe differently from what I believe, by people who are not certified to teach theology and the tenets of my faith.

It is perfectly reasonable for one to believe that God created all, including the complexities of the world that are explained by science, and also believe in that very science.

Then I am afraid I have less respect for you than an athiest who supports evolution. At least the athiest is intellectually honest. Science, as defined by Darwinists, only can understand and explain the world in terms of chance and natural laws. To support "God-directed" evolution is a completely oxymoronic statement.

390 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:21:23pm

re: #378 george slivers

That is like asking where the big bang came from. Evolutionists can't explain where the first organism came from. Abiogensis is a joke.

Think about what your saying. You have no problem with a random process but an intelligent process explaining the diversity of life scares you. Why?

You said it was non-random! How do you know? Did you talk to this intelligent designer? Does ID say anything at all about this intelligent designer?

391 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:21:34pm

re: #378