LGF

 RetweetCreationism on the Rise in Texas

Sun, Jul 27, 2008 at 11:13:28 am PDT

The Texas State Board of Education has begun hearings on teaching the “weaknesses” of evolutionary science—which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design.”

And in a creepy real-life inversion of Ben Stein’s “Expelled,” the Texas Education Agency recently fired their Director of Science, Chris Comer, for forwarding an email announcing an anti-creationism seminar. Here’s a video presentation on the case:

Youtube Video

Andrea Grimes in the Austin Chronicle has a good piece on the rise of religious pseudoscience in Texas: Texas Fiction Science: The State Board of Education does its part to fantasize biology.

The first of several hearings on the science curricula updates occurred July 17 and 18, with this first meeting dedicated only to the delicate bureaucratic process of planning on how to plan those updates. According to SBOE chair and College Station dentist Dr. Don McLeroy, this year’s “battle is to bring in some of the weaknesses of evolution,” to ninth- and 10th-grade biology classrooms, retaining language requiring that teachers instruct students in the “strengths and weaknesses” of scientific theories. But according to the Texas Freedom Network, a statewide organization that works to mitigate the influence of fundamentalism on state policy, it’s really just one singular theory that gets the critical treatment.

“The only theory they attack is evolution,” said Dan Quinn, Texas Freedom Network’s communications director. Heliocentricity, gravitational theory, and atomic structure all get the SBOE thumbs-up. Indeed, despite clearly worded endorsements of evolution’s validity as scientific fact from the National Academy of Sciences, the American Association for the Advancement of Science, the Science Teachers Association of Texas, and countless other scientific groups, McLeroy and six other conservative members of the 15-member SBOE remain unconvinced.

“I don’t think the evidence supports [evolution],” said McLeroy, a self-described creationist who believes that because “science is always trying to find problems with stuff,” evolution should not be presented as absolute fact. In McLeroy’s opinion, there are three major weaknesses of evolutionary theory that schoolchildren should be made aware of. He arrived at these conclusions by “reading everything [he] could get [his] hands on” and listening to podcasts.

First weakness: the fossil record. “There are gaps,” said McLeroy, that do not include enough transitional forms of life to support evolution. Second, McLeroy says there has simply not been enough time on Earth for the minute changes required by evolution to have taken place. Thirdly, McLeroy says the incredible complexity of cells proves divine design. Information contained in the genetic code is just too mind-blowing to have come from anywhere but an intelligent creator. “Where did this information come from?” McLeroy mused. McLeroy would like to see these assertions and more taught in Texas biology classrooms.

I asked University of Texas integrative biology professor David Hillis, a member of the National Academy of Sciences, about McLeroy’s list of “weaknesses.” In an e-mail exchange, Hillis said McLeroy was simply denying facts. “There is indeed a vast record of transitional fossils,” wrote Hillis, saying McLeroy’s fossil record claims are “completely at odds with the experts in the entire field of paleontology.”

As for McLeroy’s second assertion regarding length of time required for evolution to have taken place, Hillis wrote that the position “demonstrates an extraordinary ignorance of biology,” since rates of evolution observed in laboratory tests have been “more than sufficient” to prove natural rates of genetic change that coincide with the fossil record.

Finally, McLeroy’s cell-complexity argument does not even belong in a scientific discussion, wrote Hillis: “The argument that ‘It is too complicated, so God must have done it’ is not a scientific argument.”

And yet it appears that, all evidence to the contrary, evolution may still soon be taught in Texas as a weak theory. Since the SBOE has a near majority of anti-evolution members, the small problem of evolution actually being demonstrable scientific knowledge is only a political challenge to those who want schoolchildren taught otherwise.

Read the whole thing...

Also see:
More Stealth Creationism in Texas

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1105 comments

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1 rwmofo  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:16:23am

There's always private school ya know.

2 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:18:11am

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

3 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:19:12am

Wow.  Texas.

}:)     [Who'da thunk it?]

4 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:20:03am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

I hear armadillos are good eating.

}:)     [No need to explain it if you can eat it, I suppose.]

5 wvobiwan[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:20:31am
6 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:20:54am

re: #1 rwmofo

There's always private school ya know.

Home schooling, too.

}:)     [I'm beginning to feel more and more favorable about home schooling ... ]

7 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:21:39am

Charles, you're violating Rule #3 of The New Blogosphere:

3. You don't have the right to decide what to post on your own blog. The Committee of Whiney Commenters decides for you.

8 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:22:36am
He arrived at these conclusions by “reading everything [he] could get [his] hands on” and listening to podcasts.

Why do I get the feeling he didn't read everything he could get his hands on, but only that which supported his pre-existing creationist mindset?

9 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:22:45am

Talk about a fucking witch hunt.

}:)     [And I think I know something about witch hunts.  Immoral fuckers.]

10 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:23:21am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

Yes. Evolution can explain it.

Creationism can explain it as well.

Look at the evidence provided by both sides, and decide for yourself.

11 Syrah  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:23:38am

re: #8 Sharmuta

Why do I get the feeling he didn't read everything he could get his hands on, but only that which supported his pre-existing creationist mindset?

Because you are not as dumb as he takes you (and us) for.

12 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:24:08am

Okay, now we start the official countdown to the obligatory "Wah, wah, you're making fun of my faith, you heartless bastards" speech.

}:)     [Everybody pick a square on the poll sheet?  Everybody put their dollar in?]

13 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:25:32am

I hadn't heard of Chris Comer's story. Just out of curiousity, she said the whole thing started when she forwarded an e-mail about a "seminar". What was the seminar?

14 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:25:44am

Wow, wvobiwan, that was record time.  One minute I'm standing next to you, the next minute you're gone.  Charles moves in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform ...

}:)     [Hey, your shoes are still there.  They're smokin', but they're still there ... ]

15 wvobiwan[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:26:49am
16 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:26:53am

Charles:

Excellent entertainment for a Sunday morning.  IMNSHO, this beats church all hollow.  Thanks.

}:)     [But then, my worship is different.]

17 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:27:17am
18 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:27:46am

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

19 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:28:11am

The armadillo has the unfortunate habit of leaping straight up into the air when startled -- such as, when a car passes over one while it's crossing a road.

Can this be explained by Intelligent Design?

20 Charles  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:28:39am

Here are the details on why Chris Comer was forced to resign: Science Supervisor Chris Comer Sues Texas Education Agency.

Comer's offense was that she forwarded an email from NCSE's Glenn Branch announcing a talk by NCSE board member Dr. Barbara Forrest, co-author of Creationism's Trojan Horse, a critique of intelligent design creationism (see previous coverage here and here). Administrators reprimanded her for having informed her colleagues about the upcoming talk because it implied "that TEA endorses the speaker's position on a topic on which the agency must remain neutral."

21 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:29:06am

I wish more people would be aware, especially conservative Texans themselves, that Texas is a huge target for Marxist Socialist groups. Texas represents one of the biggest bastions of Conservative values and independent thinking left in the country and one of the few states that are left that considered real Red States. The liberals and the lawyers have descended upon the entire state to pacify it into Political Correctness and divide it ideologically. Texans and Americans by it's failure will pay a heavy price if their agenda is not brought out to the surface. This is not a conpiracy issue just a moth to the flame, Liberals are driven to suppress individualism and patriotism where ever it flourishes. The North Central States and the North East are already pacified.

22 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:29:17am

Dang, kulhwch... did a car with an ichthus run over your dog?

23 Charles  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:29:59am

Another meltdown. That's 3 so far this morning.

24 rwmofo  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:30:22am

re: #18 Wyatt Earp

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

With the infatuation that so many have for Paris Hilton and Lindsey Lohan, I wonder at times if evolution is on a bell curve.

25 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:30:24am

re: #21 Egfrow

Good point!

26 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:30:33am
27 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:30:34am

re: #18 Wyatt Earp

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

Survival of the fittest applies to mating habits, as well, if I understand correctly... so yes... yes it does. ;P

28 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:31:10am

Mmm... I'm for keeping religion out of the classroom. But I detect a strong whiff of horse hockey, in this video, for several reasons.

It smacks of a mediocre political play -- note the ridiculous 'punishment' of writing lines on the whiteboard -- and not-so-gracefully pirouettes around some key details. Like the actual email this woman sent about an 'anti-creation' lecture. Was it unprofessional or offensive in tone, for instance? Did she, a science teacher, reach beyond science to take a swipe at the purview of a religious studies class?

Questions. Even for the questioners.

29 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:31:22am

re: #20 Charles

Here are the details on why Chris Comer was forced to resign: Science Supervisor Chris Comer Sues Texas Education Agency.

My goodness. Since when does attending a seminar become a personal announcement of anything! I would think she has to win her suit. I certainly hope she does.

30 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:31:52am

re: #20 Charles

"... a topic on which the agency must remain neutral."

Charles, how many times can I paste "bullshit!" into a single comment before I get banned?

/s

31 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:32:15am

re: #26 buzzsawmonkey

The problem with Texas going creationist is that it practically guarantees the bulk of school districts in the rest of the country will be forced to deal with this.

Texas buys its schoolbooks on a statewide basis, making it one of the biggest markets in the country (that's what the Texas Book Depository, where Oswald hid to shoot JFK, is for). California is the other large national market.

Because Texas is such a big market, schoolbook preparers slant their books to what will be accepted in Texas and/or California. Thus, if Texas wants creationism, the rest of the country is going to get it whether it wants it or not.

Florida has the same problems. Luckily we all have Pennsylvania in our pocket.

32 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:32:35am

re: #17 buzzsawmonkey

Pornography can explain the armored dildo.

Oh, ow!  But does it have to?

}:P     [Rougher trade than I'm used to ... ]

33 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:32:50am
34 mj  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:33:22am

I've had the very unhappy experience of dealing with The Texas State Board of Education for years due to a number of textbooks I've wriiten.

The problem with The Texas State Board of Education is that they decide which books get used not only in Texas but accross the USA. If a publisher can't sell his books in Texas, which means being adopted by The Texas State Board of Education, then the publisher will force the author to revise it since Texas is too big a market to write-off.

35 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:33:53am

re: #33 buzzsawmonkey

"Is that Pennsylvania in your pocket, or are you just glad to see me?"

ROFL

36 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:34:10am

re: #28 Cognito


It smacks of a mediocre political play -- note the ridiculous 'punishment' of writing lines on the whiteboard -- and not-so-gracefully pirouettes around some key details


It's an homage to a scene from Ben Stein's Expelled.

37 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:34:25am

More problems with the TEA, from a July 10 Austin American-Statesman story:
'The future of the office tasked with rooting out problems at the Texas Education Agency is in question after two of the three remaining employees said they were fired.

An agency spokeswoman confirmed that at least two employees of its inspector general's office were placed on leave late last month, but she wouldn't say why. One of the employees said he was punished for complaining that he wasn't allowed to do his job.

"Every time an issue of fraud presented itself, we were not authorized to look into it," James Catazaro said.

For example, he said, top agency officials kept him and his colleagues from investigating allegations of possible kickbacks to a superintendent."
[Link: www.statesman.com...]

38 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:35:13am

Now my dog has to go out, just when I can get in on a thread that doesn't have 800 posts... sigh...

39 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:35:23am

re: #21 Egfrow

I wish more people would be aware, especially conservative Texans themselves, that Texas is a huge target for Marxist Socialist groups. Texas represents one of the biggest bastions of Conservative values and independent thinking left in the country and one of the few states that are left that considered real Red States. The liberals and the lawyers have descended upon the entire state to pacify it into Political Correctness and divide it ideologically. Texans and Americans by it's failure will pay a heavy price if their agenda is not brought out to the surface. This is not a conpiracy issue just a moth to the flame, Liberals are driven to suppress individualism and patriotism where ever it flourishes. The North Central States and the North East are already pacified.

But it sounds like, with this case, Texans are being stupid.  And all on their own.  One can be conservative without rejecting science.

}:)     [You're not saying that evolution is a conspiracy against the Lone Star State, are you?]

40 Charles  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:35:35am

re: #28 Cognito

The whiteboard segment is a parody of Ben Stein's movie, which opens with him writing "Do not question Darwinism" on a blackboard.

41 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:36:22am

what gets me is that there are Christians out there who make THIS there number one issue in life. In the Grand Scheme of things, does the God they believe in really care all that much if they believe in the evidence that supports the theory of evolution or the claim that he created the universe in seven days? I recall growing up as a Catholic and pretty much being told that the meat and potatoes of getting into Heaven had more to do with having faith that Jesus was Lord/he was resurrected/his word is the ultimate truth/live my life like Jesus etc. etc. etc.

So, what does creation have to do with any of that?

42 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:36:59am

And I was just wondering to myself, self, why doesn't this ever seem to happen in a blue state?

}:)     [This keeps up, everyone's going to assume we conservatives are prone to this sort of thing.]

43 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:22am

re: #28 Cognito

Did she, a science teacher, reach beyond science to take a swipe at the purview of a religious studies class?


No, Creationism's Trojan Horse is not a critique of what is taught in religious studies classes. It's a critique of the Wedge strategy to inset creationism into science class.

44 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:28am

re: #36 Killgore Trout

It's an homage to a scene from Ben Stein's Expelled.

It's lame in every direction.

45 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:32am

re: #27 BlueFalcon

Well crafted. Mmm . . . Jessica Simpson!

46 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:32am

Maybe I'm wierd. I grew up in a solid-liberal county in Wisconsin, and I heard all manner of things in school I didn't believe (mostly to do with politics). Maybe this has hardened my shell a bit: see... I don't really care whether what they teach in school is factual or not. I think parents ought to be closely supervising their child's education. Something more interactive than reading a report card.

I don't believe in "young-earth" creationism. I don't think dinosaurs roamed with people. Ever. I also think old-earth creationism is compatible with both the big-bang theory (if you read Genesis intelligently) and macro-evolution.

HOWEVER... it doesn't kill me that people are teaching wonky stuff in biology. Because I know for a fact that they're ALREADY teaching wonky stuff on politics, ethics, health, and everything else. Somehow, my little brain survived the gauntlet of dumbing-down, and I'm confident that (with my help) my kids can do the same.

IOW: I've got many battles to fight concerning the world my kids will grow up in. This is a battle I'm not even fighting. Homeschooling FTW.

47 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:33am

Creationism is backed by Socialists / Marxists because it drives a wedge between western philosophical thinking and eliminated critical thinking and individualism. It is designed to divide our minds away from the ability to depend on our own rational thought to discover the world around us. So we must have faith in those who know what's best for us instead.

Religion is a personal believe not a social collective. There are ways to consolidate region and science by keeping them separate and distinct. Islam, Collectivists, Fascists, Theocrats, Aristocrats have a great need to have the masses surrender their individual judgment and lives to their greater cause.

48 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:37:40am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

Nor can they explain the vast differences between Northeast Texas and the rest of the state.

They actually call the area I'm in "Texoma"...

49 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:08am

So soon have they forgotten the Tao of Stinky Lao.

50 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:21am

re: #22 BlueFalcon

Dang, kulhwch... did a car with an ichthus run over your dog?

Not yet, but I do have a rat that's ailing.

}:)     [Miz Lucy's not long for this world, alas.]

51 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:27am

One has to wonder if all the proponents of creationism grasp the fact that what they think they're fighting for (i.e. a certain brand of Christianity) is now being seen as a vehicle to get that other religion, the ROP, into their schools?
Do they not understand that they are opening the doors wide to far more dangerous enemies than scientist, even if they're atheists, will ever be to their religion?
Or should we assume that all those lawyers and boards are also slowly being wrapped up in the arms of the ROP, like the Discovery Insitute, as has been discussed here on LGF before?

52 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:46am

re: #39 Kulhwch

But it sounds like, with this case, Texans are being stupid.  And all on their own.  One can be conservative without rejecting science.

}:)     [You're not saying that evolution is a conspiracy against the Lone Star State, are you?]

No quite the opposite.

53 DaddyO  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:51am

Tony Snow

"...Don’t shrink from pondering God’s role in the universe or Christ’s. You see, it’s trendy to reject religious reflection as a grave offense against decency. That’s not only cowardly. That’s false. Faith and reason are knitted together in the human soul. So don’t leave home without either one..."

54 Phocid  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:38:52am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

Kipling explained the Armadillo.

55 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:39:34am

re: #38 marjoriemoon

Tell him to keep his back legs crossed!

56 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:40:15am

re: #1 rwmofo

There's always private school ya know.

To whom are you addressing this?

57 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:40:16am

re: #10 zombie

Yes. Evolution can explain it.

Creationism can explain it as well.

Look at the evidence provided by both sides, and decide for yourself.

I don't think anything can explain the Armadillo. They're a right mysterious critter!

58 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:41:33am

re: #45 Wyatt Earp

Well crafted. Mmm . . . Jessica Simpson!

No brain. Proof of adaptation to environment. She doesn't need to know squat about survival, someone will feed her in exchange for reproductive rights.

Not sayin' it's always a good thing.

59 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:41:36am

Been reading up on the teacher a bit. It seems she had been at the agency for just nine months, and had already been cited for other problems with her professionalism...

But yeah. It looks like they fired her for sending out word of this lecture with an attached note saying only, 'FYI.'

I think it's unseemly for someone at a teaching agency to smack down mere Creationism. That's a matter of religion. But if the lecture was on Intelligent Design and its influence in science classrooms, she was well within her field.

In which case, shame on the agency. And good luck in court.

60 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:41:48am
He arrived at these conclusions by “reading everything [he] could get [his] hands on” and listening to podcasts.

So he got to be an expert reading comic books and watching youtube videos. How lame is that.

61 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:41:49am

re: #28 Cognito

Mmm... I'm for keeping religion out of the classroom. But I detect a strong whiff of horse hockey, in this video, for several reasons.

It smacks of a mediocre political play -- note the ridiculous 'punishment' of writing lines on the whiteboard -- and not-so-gracefully pirouettes around some key details. Like the actual email this woman sent about an 'anti-creation' lecture. Was it unprofessional or offensive in tone, for instance? Did she, a science teacher, reach beyond science to take a swipe at the purview of a religious studies class?
Questions. Even for the questioners.

What does it matter what it said? She forwarded an e-mail. I forward a ton of e-mail about things I do not agree with as well as a ton of things I do. Goes the same for seminars and attending them. Mere attendance does not denote that you agree with the subject matter. In this case, she probably did, but what difference does it make?

The link Charles quoted said,

"Administrators reprimanded her for having informed her colleagues about the upcoming talk because it implied "that TEA endorses the speaker's position on a topic on which the agency must remain neutral."

That's an absolutely ludricious statement. It means no such thing.

62 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:42:19am

Texans absolutely must rise up to defeat this. Where will Texas draw professionals to operate their natural resources in future generations if they teach their own children pseudo-science?

63 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:42:29am

re: #42 Kulhwch

And I was just wondering to myself, self, why doesn't this ever seem to happen in a blue state?

}:)     [This keeps up, everyone's going to assume we conservatives are prone to this sort of thing.]

Blues states majorities are dedicated to supporting entitlement views such ash more social programs, anti gun laws, welfare, cultural diversity, Illegal immigration, pretty much standing for everything that Europe loves and we have fought against since our founding.

64 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:42:34am

re: #46 BlueFalcon

Maybe I'm wierd. I grew up in a solid-liberal county in Wisconsin, and I heard all manner of things in school I didn't believe (mostly to do with politics). Maybe this has hardened my shell a bit: see... I don't really care whether what they teach in school is factual or not. I think parents ought to be closely supervising their child's education. Something more interactive than reading a report card.

I don't believe in "young-earth" creationism. I don't think dinosaurs roamed with people. Ever. I also think old-earth creationism is compatible with both the big-bang theory (if you read Genesis intelligently) and macro-evolution.

HOWEVER... it doesn't kill me that people are teaching wonky stuff in biology. Because I know for a fact that they're ALREADY teaching wonky stuff on politics, ethics, health, and everything else. Somehow, my little brain survived the gauntlet of dumbing-down, and I'm confident that (with my help) my kids can do the same.

IOW: I've got many battles to fight concerning the world my kids will grow up in. This is a battle I'm not even fighting. Homeschooling FTW.

That has to be the worst argument concerning creationism in the schools I've ever heard. Basically, you're saying, "Our kids are taught a whole lot of lies. Why not add another lie to the pile?" Are you serious? And are you serious when you say, "I don't really care whether what they teach in school is factual or not." What?

Just because the educational system is flawed in one way doesn't mean we should make it more flawed in another way just for the hell of it.

65 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:43:09am

re: #55 yma o hyd

Tell him to keep his back legs crossed!

lol It started to thunder so now she's under the bed.

66 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:43:18am

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

Read the whole thing.

/the real clear and present danger to the American public education system

67 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:43:50am

The armadillo's nothing. It's the platypus... that's the thing. God made it a funny-looking egg-laying mammal for you to laugh at, and he gave it a poison stinger to teach you humility.

Thus endeth the lesson.

68 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:44:31am

re: #65 marjoriemoon

Ah - thats exactly what mine does! Funny that - is yours a Border Collie?

69 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:44:40am

re: #51 yma o hyd

That's part of the danger of these "Academic Freedom" bills that are pending in several states. The creationist agenda goes beyond just the science classroom. If these bills pass a Muslim teacher could teach Sharia as social studies and would be protected by law. It's a very bad idea on so many levels. I'm sure CAIR is anxiously waiting for the opportunity too exploit this situation.

70 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:45:23am

re: #53 DaddyO

Tony Snow

"...Don’t shrink from pondering God’s role in the universe or Christ’s. You see, it’s trendy to reject religious reflection as a grave offense against decency. That’s not only cowardly. That’s false. Faith and reason are knitted together in the human soul. So don’t leave home without either one..."

Great quote. Reminds me of another line from the Babylon 5 episode where a monastic order was attempting to rebuild a future earth devastated by a nuclear war (JMS borrowed this from Walter Miller's novel "A Canticle for Leibowitz"). One of the monks says "Faith and Reason are like the shoes on your feet...you can travel a lot further with both than just one".

This has long been a cornerstone of both Catholic and Anglican doctrine. C.S. Lewis is a fine exemplar of this line of thought.

71 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:45:55am

re: #64 zombie

Indeed- we don't fix leftist indoctrination by adding creationist indoctrination.

72 grumpy old codger  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:46:10am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?


Rhinoceros made it with a possum?

73 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:46:21am

re: #2 Colonel Panik

Can either Creationism or Darwinism explain the Armadillo?

I think neither Creationism nor Darwinism can explain Amarillo.

74 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:46:41am

re: #39 Kulhwch

But it sounds like, with this case, Texans are being stupid.  And all on their own.  One can be conservative without rejecting science.

}:)     [You're not saying that evolution is a conspiracy against the Lone Star State, are you?]

It takes someone with an elitist attitude to call an entire community Stupid for falling for Creationist B.S. tricks. What about the Blue states falling for Bullshit liberal propaganda about the State taking care of all their needs and the Government knows best. The anti capitalistic views against business and property owners. Working class people are not stupid just misinformed. You sir, are adhering to class separatist views.

75 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:46:45am

re: #46 BlueFalcon

This is a battle I'm not even fighting. Homeschooling FTW.

How well prepared will your homeschooled children be to compete in college against kids who have taken AP classes in real high schools taught by teachers with Masters Degrees. Just wondering.

76 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:47:25am

re: #52 Egfrow

Ah, okay, reread it, and while I still think it sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, I do see you seem to be coming at it from the other direction.

}:)     [So what do we do about it?]

77 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:47:53am

re: #68 yma o hyd

Ah - thats exactly what mine does! Funny that - is yours a Border Collie?

Naw mutt. Chow/shepard mix about 45 lbs. Looks like a fox.

78 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:47:55am

re: #66 Killian Bundy

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

Read the whole thing.

/the real clear and present danger to the American public education system

Most folks here don't want to read that, they would rather snipe at religion and it's teachings and whoever this "Kulhwch" person is can go screw themselves.

79 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:49:04am

re: #60 Mich-again

So he got to be an expert reading comic books and watching youtube videos. How lame is that.

Finagle's Law: In order to effectively study a subject, you must understand it thoroughly before you start.

80 rightwinger3  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:49:24am

re: #62 Sharmuta

Texans absolutely must rise up to defeat this. Where will Texas draw professionals to operate their natural resources in future generations if they teach their own children pseudo-science?

Sharmuta, pseudo-science is quite the right word. How about bull-shit instead?

81 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:49:41am

re: #78 VegasRick

btw, count me out of "most folks"

/just sayin'

82 Syrah  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:49:56am

I think that we should avoid the term Darwinism.

It allows the kooks to evade the essentials of Natural Selection by making it sound akin to a religion.

Make them strait up deny that Natural Selection is real.

83 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:50:21am

re: #64 zombie

That has to be the worst argument concerning creationism in the schools I've ever heard. Basically, you're saying, "Our kids are taught a whole lot of lies. Why not add another lie to the pile?" Are you serious? And are you serious when you say, "I don't really care whether what they teach in school is factual or not." What?

Just because the educational system is flawed in one way doesn't mean we should make it more flawed in another way just for the hell of it.

Maybe I'm jaded. I just don't think school is for education anymore (rather, public school). It is, at its core, a instrument of governmental social experimentation. If your child receives an actual education at one of these institutions, it's likely because of how you raised them at home.

The other issue, for me, is this: do you want your child shielded from everything you disagree with? Most fundamentalist parents I know would say yes; which is why creationism is being taught in the first place. They won't let their children watch the Gold Compass, and won't let them play D&D. I think that's wrong.

So if your kid goes to such a school district as teaches creationism as an alternative to evolution, I suggest completing their education by discussing it with them, arming them with knowledge, and then sending them back into the classroom with it.

84 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:50:53am

re: #75 Mich-again

How well prepared will your homeschooled children be to compete in college against kids who have taken AP classes in real high schools taught by teachers with Masters Degrees. Just wondering.


Small sample, but the homeschooled kids i know have a much better foundation than you'll find in any but the best private college prep school.

Learning Greek and Latin, for one. Way back in the dark ages (OK, 50s) Latin literacy was damn near a requirement for high education.

What happened? Kids get stupid? Teachers get lazy?
I don't have the answer.

85 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:50:55am

re: #66 Killian Bundy

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

Read the whole thing.

/the real clear and present danger to the American public education system

Excellent column.

Worth at least as much attention as the scuffle in Texas, in my opinion.

86 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:51:05am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

Just so!
Its gone beyond the assumed battle between faith and science, even if so many people still think that scientists are out to attack Christianity.
It is indeed the thin edge of the wedge - but diffrent from what the proponents of that strategy may originally ahve thought.
Its now a question of strictly keeping all religion out of all public schools in order to keep Islam out, because that is where these skirmishes lead.

I wonder if all who defend creationism can spare a thought about what they would say if because of their fight here, Islam and its world view would be introduced as proper subject to be taught in politics, science, history ...

87 tskier[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:51:31am
88 rwmofo  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:51:42am

re: #56 Occasional Reader

To whom are you addressing this?

Public School Unions primarily.

89 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:51:44am

re: #63 Egfrow

Blues states majorities are dedicated to supporting entitlement views such ash more social programs, anti gun laws, welfare, cultural diversity, Illegal immigration, pretty much standing for everything that Europe loves and we have fought against since our founding.

Now why would we fight against cultural diversity or social programs?

}:)     [Just trying to iron out the 2 klinkers I saw in your theory.]

90 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:52:28am

re: #75 Mich-again

How well prepared will your homeschooled children be to compete in college against kids who have taken AP classes in real high schools taught by teachers with Masters Degrees. Just wondering.

Homeschooling is not for everyone. I know many families that have no business doing it, simply because the parents have no education. Speaking personally, I think my kids would be pretty well-prepared. But the question is important, and everyone that home-schools should have to answer it.

91 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:52:45am

re: #69 Killgore Trout

That's part of the danger of these "Academic Freedom" bills that are pending in several states. The creationist agenda goes beyond just the science classroom. If these bills pass a Muslim teacher could teach Sharia as social studies and would be protected by law. It's a very bad idea on so many levels. I'm sure CAIR is anxiously waiting for the opportunity too exploit this situation.

Teachers have to teach school board-approved curriculum. Even if a Muslim teacher explained sharia, he or she could not evaluate a student on the subject unless it was part of the approved curriculum. If a student felt he ore she was a victim of retaliation, the student and the family would have grounds for a grievance.

92 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:53:21am

re: #78 VegasRick

they would rather snipe at religion

Examples, please.

93 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:53:26am
re: #65 marjoriemoon
re: #55 yma o hyd

Tell him to keep his back legs crossed!

lol It started to thunder so now she's under the bed.

See?  The Gods want you to read the thread ...

}:)     [Well, how would you explain it, then?]

94 Wyatt Earp  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:53:33am

re: #58 Van Helsing

No brain just means that I have a chance with her! :)

95 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:53:43am

Here's the problem: Rick Perry appointed Don McLeroy chairman of the Texas State Board of Education. He has an agenda. Here are his views on Evolution and Intelligent Design:
"Now I would like to talk a little bit about the big tent. Why is intelligent design the big tent? It’s because we’re all lined up against the fact that naturalism, that nature is all there is. Whether you’re a progressive creationist, recent creationist, young earth, old earth, it’s all in the tent of intelligent design. And intelligent design here at Grace Bible Church actually is a smaller, uh, tent than you would have in the intelligent design movement as a whole. Because we are all Biblical literalists, we all believe the Bible to be inerrant, and it’s good to remember, though, that the entire intelligent design movement as a whole is a bigger tent. So because it’s a bigger tent, just don’t waste our time arguing with each other about some of the, all of the side issues. And that’s one thing that I really enjoyed about our group is that we’ve put that all in the big tent, we’re all working together."
[Link: www.tfn.org...]

96 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:16am

re: #82 Syrah

Natural selection doesn't always mean the fittest survive. I suppose there was some luck involved too. Who knows there might have been a group of animals that perished in a meteor strike while a weaker herd of the same breed evaded the impact and lived on. They weren't more fit to survive, but they were luckier.

97 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:30am

re: #77 marjoriemoon

Naw mutt. Chow/shepard mix about 45 lbs. Looks like a fox.

Brilliant!
As this thread is about science - not many people know that the ethologist and animal behaviourist Konrad Lorenz adored this cross-breed and thought they were closest to the original dogs, pre-domestication!
So youv'e got a scientifically proven 'best' of dogs, not a mutt!

98 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:53am

well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population...

99 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:54am

re: #96 Mich-again

Natural selection doesn't always mean the fittest survive. I suppose there was some luck involved too. Who knows there might have been a group of animals that perished in a meteor strike while a weaker herd of the same breed evaded the impact and lived on. They weren't more fit to survive, but they were luckier.

Ergo, the National League.

100 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:54:54am

re: #76 Kulhwch

Ah, okay, reread it, and while I still think it sounds like a conspiracy theory to me, I do see you seem to be coming at it from the other direction.

}:)     [So what do we do about it?]

There is no need to To talk of conspiracy theories when we speak of collectivism and mob rule. It's a non thinking machine of fear that is full of feelings but as little resolved logic. Humankind seems to be looking to climb back into the womb and can't seem to want to let go of some kind of great pacifier to fulfill an emotional need of being protected or looked after. If god exists, he set us free and gave us free minds to take care of ourselves. It is the way of evolution, a species must consider it's own survival of primary importance after all others. Not the Caribou, or the Spotted Owl, or God himself. Emotions are tools to be used by ration and reason to initiate changes for our lives. I believe it is a sin to put all above ourselves. We must be strong and fearless not cowardice and weak looking for someone to save us.

101 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:55:24am

re: #83 BlueFalcon

Most parents do not have the knowledge, skill, time or patience to "discuss" each lesson plan with their children after school in order to neutralize it. The whole point behind public school is that most parents can't teach their kids themselves, for any number of reasons. One should have a reasonable expectation that the schools will be teaching your kids something vaguely resembling knowledge.

Maybe you could anti-indoctrinate your kids every day, but would you want millions of other people's kids fed intellectual garbage, unchallenged, and then growing up to inherit the country?

102 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:56:09am

I also find that UFO dweebs have allot in common with this Creationist B.S. on an emotional level. Many can't take on the responsibility for our own existence.

103 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:56:29am

re: #87 tskier

We are "on this crap" because of the parallel danger it could indirectly unleash. See the following:

re: #69 Killgore Trout

104 Macker  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:57:02am

re: #99 Cognito

Is that because of the AL's DH?

105 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:57:04am

re: #84 Van Helsing

I doubt many of the home schoolers who refuse to send their kids to public schools so they won't be subjected to modern science are getting into much depth in the math and science curriculum. Call me a skeptic there.

106 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:58:23am

re: #89 Kulhwch

Now why would we fight against cultural diversity or social programs?

}:)     [Just trying to iron out the 2 klinkers I saw in your theory.]

Because the Government is not a moral authority on deciding what "Social Causes" or entitlements are. We fought wars over that kind of thinking. When the government is in charge of distrubtion then someone has too loose who may be accused of having more.

107 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:58:29am

re: #47 Egfrow

Creationism is backed by Socialists / Marxists because it drives a wedge between western philosophical thinking and eliminated critical thinking and individualism. It is designed to divide our minds away from the ability to depend on our own rational thought to discover the world around us. So we must have faith in those who know what's best for us instead.

Religion is a personal believe not a social collective. There are ways to consolidate region and science by keeping them separate and distinct. Islam, Collectivists, Fascists, Theocrats, Aristocrats have a great need to have the masses surrender their individual judgment and lives to their greater cause.

Excellent!

108 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:58:55am

re: #100 Egfrow

Excellent - and one should above all else not look to some self-designed human 'saviours' to do that!

109 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:59:29am

re: #91 goddessoftheclassroom

I'm sure the public schools in Dearborn could get enough CAIR supporters on the board to make it happen. It wouldn't happen in Louisiana but it's very possible that it could happen elsewhere. I think it's a mistake to invoke these rules and assume that Christians will be the only ones to exploit them. Things change. I think it's also to be honest about this; most supporters of Academic Freedom don't really care about academic freedom. They want to push their own religious agenda. They'd be outraged if other religions were trying the same thing. It's dishonest and unfair.

110 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:59:39am

re: #99 Cognito

Ergo, the National League.

Someday pitchers will evolve and be able to hit as well.

111 Syrah  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 11:59:56am

re: #96 Mich-again

Natural selection doesn't always mean the fittest survive. I suppose there was some luck involved too. Who knows there might have been a group of animals that perished in a meteor strike while a weaker herd of the same breed evaded the impact and lived on. They weren't more fit to survive, but they were luckier.

That is true.

I have made that very same point many times in this debate.

The strongest, smartest, and fastest can lose out to those that just reproduce more numerously. In such a state, what is being selected is not what we might consider "better" but that which propagates the most.

Natural selection can be messy.

112 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:00:11pm

re: #97 yma o hyd

Brilliant!
As this thread is about science - not many people know that the ethologist and animal behaviourist Konrad Lorenz adored this cross-breed and thought they were closest to the original dogs, pre-domestication!
So youv'e got a scientifically proven 'best' of dogs, not a mutt!

hehe Well we're not so sure. She really found us. She was on the yard one morning and no one in the neighborhood would claim her so she became part of the family.

She looked a lot more like a chow when she was a puppy, matty hair, bearlike face. But then her nose, ears and coat grew more like a shepard. So who knows what's in there. She has a perfect disposition.

Mother Nature is a mad scientist indeed!

113 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:00:38pm

re: #18 Wyatt Earp

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

That guy used to have some great BBQ rib restaurants.
Oh, that was Tony Roma.

Never mind.

114 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:00:56pm

re: #18 Wyatt Earp

Can evolution explain how Tony Romo flubbed that snap in the playoffs? Ha!

I like this comment. I don't know if it was you intention or not, but I think it illustrates the absolute silliness of those that insist on conflating the origins of life with the theory of evolution.

115 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:00pm

re: #104 Macker

How else, but the lucky sidestep of a flaming meteor, could one explain the continued survival of the breed?

That's why their perennial champions are called 'The Dodgers.'

116 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:19pm

I have to point something out here.

Evolution is a very small part of a biology course. Most kids only have one life science course in junior high and one biology course in high school. It absolutely MUST be taught as part of those courses, and ID has not earned its place in the curriculum--and shouldn't until it meets the criteria of a scientific theory.

THE IMPORTANT thing, I think, is that students are free to debate and argue with their teachers based on FACTS. It's when students are told to shut up and copy down these notes--whatever the curriculum is--that there is a serious problem.

117 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:33pm

re: #92 Occasional Reader

Examples, please.

re: #12 Kulhwch

Okay, now we start the official countdown to the obligatory "Wah, wah, you're making fun of my faith, you heartless bastards" speech.

}:)     [Everybody pick a square on the poll sheet?  Everybody put their dollar in?]

re: #16 Kulhwch

Charles:

Excellent entertainment for a Sunday morning.  IMNSHO, this beats church all hollow.  Thanks.

}:)     [But then, my worship is different.]

And many others on most of the ID threads.

118 BlueFalcon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:42pm

re: #101 zombie

Most parents do not have the knowledge, skill, time or patience to "discuss" each lesson plan with their children after school in order to neutralize it.

The first two are sad and unfortunate, but not insurmountable: it's never too late to seek higher education (my father graduated college at the age of 38 and I was still in middle school). The time and patience issues are sad, given that most parents have no problem making time for prime-time TV every night.

Another positive side-effect of parents taking an active role in their kids' education is accountability for getting work done and improving grades. That part is proven in studies.

119 RedSoxNation  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:01:55pm

Watch the Penn & Teller presentation on this topic. It is informative and very funny, especially the opening segment where Penn makes the case for Darwinism and Teller makes the (short and blunt) case for Creationism...

[Link: hotair.com...]

120 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:02:32pm

re: #98 redc1c4

well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population...

And you have obambi to support.

121 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:06pm

re: #119 RedSoxNation

Yep- we discussed it yesterday.

122 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:19pm

re: #102 Egfrow

I also find that UFO dweebs have allot in common with this Creationist B.S. on an emotional level. Many can't take on the responsibility for our own existence.

I actually think the core of the opposition to evolutionary theory is the same emotion that has been guiding this from the very beginning in 1858:

People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys.
People want to think that human beings are "special" and something utterly unlike the rest of the animal kingdom.

In reality, most creationists I think don't give a hoot about whether or not dogs are related to wolves or whether fossils are 3 weeks or or 65 million years old. They simply don't want "monkey cooties."

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.

123 Syrah  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:25pm

bbl

124 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:33pm

re: #116 goddessoftheclassroom

It's when students are told to shut that there is a serious problem.

You prefer whackin' them, dontchya ?

125 J.S.  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:35pm

There's a Wiki article on Christine Comer, here. It sounds (on the surface) that a political decision was made by her supervisor to fire her...(ie, Comer wasn't preaching the "religion" of ID), and it looks like Comer has a case (re: wrongful dismissal) and I hope Comer wins her lawsuit.

126 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:41pm

re: #64 zombie

I'm against book burning, but here's a stack of books to throw on the pile. Ta Dah!

127 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:03:55pm

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

128 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:04:44pm

re: #68 yma o hyd

Ah - thats exactly what mine does! Funny that - is yours a Border Collie?

Rounding up dust bunnies?

129 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:05:05pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

One ding up my friend.

130 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:05:52pm

re: #109 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the public schools in Dearborn could get enough CAIR supporters on the board to make it happen. It wouldn't happen in Louisiana but it's very possible that it could happen elsewhere. I think it's a mistake to invoke these rules and assume that Christians will be the only ones to exploit them. Things change. I think it's also to be honest about this; most supporters of Academic Freedom don't really care about academic freedom. They want to push their own religious agenda. They'd be outraged if other religions were trying the same thing. It's dishonest and unfair.

This is really the heart of the matter. Once this door is opened, we will not be able to stop the tide from coming in and bringing with it who knows what. As I've said before- who is to say academic freedom in high schools wouldn't include Holocaust revisionism? Not to mention a whole host of other topics- where does it end?

131 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:27pm

re: #129 VegasRick

Your a Good Man Rick.

132 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:45pm

re: #120 VegasRick

And you have obambi to support.

me? support Obanal?

you've been out in the desert sun too long.

133 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:51pm

re: #111 Syrah

The strongest, smartest, and fastest can lose out to those that just reproduce more numerously.

True, look at human history. You can acquire land through power, but it takes people to occupy the land to keep it. Same kind of thing goes for reserving curb space at a big parade. You can hold onto territory for a while by telling people you are saving the spot, but if your friends don't get there soon enough the crowd will eventually move into the space.

134 Colonel Panik  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:57pm

OT:

Middle East Radio Forum is on now at www.kknt960.com. I would highly recommend Lizards check out this program. Lots of great commentators on Israeli politics such as Yoni Tidi.

135 mossley  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:06:59pm

re: #82 Syrah

I think that we should avoid the term Darwinism.

It allows the kooks to evade the essentials of Natural Selection by making it sound akin to a religion.

Make them strait up deny that Natural Selection is real.


Why do you think Creationists insist on using the term? It's part of their method, along with such nuggets as "It's just a theory!", or "Third Law of Thermodynamics!", or "You're attacking me for being a Christian!" They can't argue on the merits of their position because they have been proven repeatedly to be false.

136 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:06pm
re: #74 Egfrowre: #39 Kulhwch

But it sounds like, with this case, Texans are being stupid. And all on their own. One can be conservative without rejecting science.

}:) [You're not saying that evolution is a conspiracy against the Lone Star State, are you?]

It takes someone with an elitist attitude to call an entire community Stupid for falling for Creationist B.S. tricks.

Actually, I didn't call the entire community Stupid for falling for IDIOT™ tricks.  I didn't say "all Texans are being stupid", but if you need to make stuff up to make your point, you might want to consider how valid it is.

What about the Blue states falling for Bullshit liberal propaganda about the State taking care of all their needs and the Government knows best.

What about the high price of hats?  In other words, what has that to do with the forcing of superstition as science in the Texan schools, and hence schools in other states soon afterwards?

The anti capitalistic views against business and property owners. Working class people are not stupid just misinformed.

I await your evidence to show where I said such a thing.  You are certainly acting stupid, that's for sure.  FYI, I'm working class too.  You might need to polish up your schtick, it's sticking.

You sir, are adhering to class separatist views.

And here I've always been classless.  Looks like projection on your part to me.

}:)     [You may need to take a breather, you're getting slobber all over everything.]

137 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:27pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

I'm dinging you down for one reason: You seem to equate teaching creationist lies with imparting Christian values. The two are in fact diametric opposites.

138 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:49pm

re: #122 zombie

"monkey cooties"

Don McLeroy, chairman of the Texas TEA, is worried about "tree cooties."

"Phillip Johnson is one of the leaders in the intelligent design movement. He uses the word Darwinism and I will be giving quotes from him, so when you hear the word Darwinism or if I accidentally refer to the word Darwinism, it means the theory of common descent. That we share common ancestor with that tree out there. I mean that is basically what we have in our high school textbooks. If you open a high school textbook, they basically state as a fact that we share common ancestry with life that first got started and some went to be plants and eventually trees and some became us." --Don McLeroy


[Link: www.tfn.org...]

139 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:50pm

re: #131 Maximu§

Your a Good Man Rick.

Thank you.

140 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:07:57pm

re: #122 zombie

I actually think the core of the opposition to evolutionary theory is the same emotion that has been guiding this from the very beginning in 1858:

People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys.
People want to think that human beings are "special" and something utterly unlike the rest of the animal kingdom.

In reality, most creationists I think don't give a hoot about whether or not dogs are related to wolves or whether fossils are 3 weeks or or 65 million years old. They simply don't want "monkey cooties."

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.

I did a substantial research paper on the Scopes Trial during my senior year of college -- trial transcript, news articles, etc. Monkeys were VERY prominently displayed in Dayton during the "festivities". It was like the entire focus of the proceedings.

*UP-DING*

141 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:08:08pm

re: #127 Maximu§

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all.

How do you propose to do this without violating the Constitution?

142 RedSoxNation  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:08:38pm

re: #121 Sharmuta

Yep- we discussed it yesterday.

I should have known better...in any event, it was pretty funny...

143 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:08:57pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

then they need to gt that "Christian teaching" someplace other than a "public" school... where are the parents?

i don't dispute the need, simply the mechanism.

144 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:09:45pm

re: #137 zombie

I'm dinging you down for one reason: You seem to equate teaching creationist lies with imparting Christian values. The two are in fact diametric opposites.

I would phrase that as creationist beleifs. Calling it a lie implies that the "teller" KNOWS creationism to be false, and teaches it a truth

145 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:09:52pm

re: #142 RedSoxNation

Well- if you look, allahpundit give Charles a hat tip right in the opening of that threat at Hot Air.

146 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:10:11pm

re: #78 VegasRick

Most folks here don't want to read that, they would rather snipe at religion and it's teachings and whoever this "Kulhwch" person is can go screw themselves.

Would have to be twice as good as sex with you, sir.

}:)     [And I'm not the one spontaneously wanking in the thread.]

147 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:10:55pm
148 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:11:26pm

The theory of evolution has survived 150 years of rigorous testing and has passed with flying colors. It is supported by the vast majority of scientists around the world, and particularly by those in fields such as medicine, biology, paleontology, etc. If evolution did not explain what these people observe in their work every single day, it would have been tossed out long ago.

So what do you do if you don't like this theory because it conflicts with your faith?

Well, you could be honest and recognize that creationism and I.D. are not science, and swallow hard and let your kids be taught evolution in school, but teach them your faith-based beliefs at home or in church. Or, you could homeschool your kids.

But apparently a lot of folks find it much more fun to try to subvert the Constitution, rewrite the centuries-old definition of science, and accuse millions of scientists of being really, really, really stupid, oblivious morons who cling to evolution despite the great gaping holes in the theory so big you could sail an aircraft carrier through them.

Even if their argument is that all those millions of scientists are committed atheists and secular humanists who have for 150 years promoted a sham theory in order to remove God from human life, they're STILL saying scientists are a bunch of drooling idiots, because they couldn't come up with a fake theory that a 5-year old can't blow holes through.

Yet, these same people make full use of all the technology science has provided for them. Computers, cell phones, modern medicine, cars...they trust their lives to airplanes that exist because of the application of the same scientific method that was used to develop the theory of evolution.

Ironic, no?

149 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:11:33pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

The decline of the American youth and the replacement of parents by big government is a direct result of Darwinists imposing their self-defeating ideology.

The big scare is the decline in science Darwinism has brought about. My junior research colleauges lack the critical thinking skills because they have been taught, "If it don't make sense, evolution did it". I coined it the "Darwin-of-the-gaps" approach to science.

150 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:11:58pm

re: #122 zombie

...People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys...That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.


Yes, but it's a stupid argument. It doesn't say that we descended from monkeys anyway. We share a common ancestor. It's a completely different thing.

The adament refusal to understand the science is mindboggling to me.

151 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:13:05pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

NO religion in school. That's what your clergy is for.

How about all the kids who aren't Christians? Screw them?

152 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:13:13pm

re: #127 Maximu§

re: #137 zombie

I'm dinging you down for one reason: You seem to equate teaching creationist lies with imparting Christian values. The two are in fact diametric opposites.

Maximu§, I'm up-dinging both you and zombie because I agree with her "seem to", AND at the same time agree with everything else you said.

/nitpicking

153 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:13:18pm

On the narrow issue of Chris Comer's firing, she has a good case for describing her 'FYI' email as neutral on the issue, especially compared with the agency chairman's public advocacy of Intelligent Design.

154 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:13:18pm

re: #132 redc1c4

me? support Obanal?

you've been out in the desert sun too long.

Well now, you stated that "well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population..." and I said "And you have obambi to support". If you are going to throw me into that cult because of my beliefs than I think it fair to throw you into another cult because of yours.

And I do have a pretty good tan pasty boy.

155 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:14:05pm

Of course, no one's currently teaching ID/Creationism as part of an approved science curriculum, in any public school, anywhere in the United States.

/and, as has been the case for decades now, they'll lose in court if they try to teach ID/Creationism as science and that's a fact

156 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:14:30pm

re: #141 Sharmuta

How do you propose to do this without violating the Constitution?

Schools already require students to perform a certain number of community service hours as part of the requirements for graduation. And included in the list of things to do is work at soup kitchens, or shelters. So even though its not Christian, its doing the same work. Not all of Christian teaching involves "superstition". A good deal of Christian teaching is about taking care of your neighbor and being of service to others and not being so wrapped up in yourself all the time. Schools can teach those lessons without crossing the line into religion.

157 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:14:35pm

re: #101 zombie

Most parents do not have the knowledge, skill, time or patience to "discuss" each lesson plan with their children after school in order to neutralize it. The whole point behind public school is that most parents can't teach their kids themselves, for any number of reasons. One should have a reasonable expectation that the schools will be teaching your kids something vaguely resembling knowledge.

Maybe you could anti-indoctrinate your kids every day, but would you want millions of other people's kids fed intellectual garbage, unchallenged, and then growing up to inherit the country?

Only if you make me pay for it too.

158 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:01pm

re: #122 zombie

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary primate emotional motivation today.

Fixed that for ya'.

159 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:14pm

re: #146 Kulhwch

Would have to be twice as good as sex with you, sir.

}:)     [And I'm not the one spontaneously wanking in the thread.]

Blow me.

160 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:30pm

re: #140 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I did a substantial research paper on the Scopes Trial during my senior year of college -- trial transcript, news articles, etc. Monkeys were VERY prominently displayed in Dayton during the "festivities". It was like the entire focus of the proceedings.

*UP-DING*

Ah yes, who could ever forget Joe Mendi, the Scopes Trial chimpanzee!

161 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:38pm

re: #148 Tigger2005

You don't understand the hierarchy of research these days. If you fail at math, logic, chemistry, physics, biology, etc. You go into evolutionary biology and stand at a podium preaching Darwinism.

Real biologists don't do Darwinism. It's irrelevant.

162 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:15:49pm

A few quotes from our Great Mentor,

"May it be to the world, what I believe it will be, (to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains under which monkish ignorance and superstition had persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the blessings and security of self-government. All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of man. The general spread of the light of science has already laid open to every view the palpable truth, that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred, ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God."
(T.J. 1826)

"Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live."
(T.J. 1825)

"It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams. "

"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every from of tyranny over the mind of man."
(T.J. 1800)

"Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity."
(T.J. 1782)

"What is it men cannot be made to believe!"
(T.J. 1786)

"I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent. "
(T.J. 1789)

163 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:16:27pm
164 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:16:38pm

re: #127 Maximu§

I'd say it would be good if the teaching were to be done by christians who actually live their faith and don't use this faith and the Bible to whack people right left and centre, or base their teachings exclusively on what they think the Bible says.

I still do not understand, after many years of debates, why being a scientist and being a Christian should be incompatible. They are not mutually exclusive, regardless of what some people want you to think.

A good teacher must be in command of his subject, while at the same time being a person who earns respect by the strength of his personal example. And that is what Christians are asked to be - examples, through the way they live, not because they know more Bible quotes than anybody else!

165 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:16:44pm

re: #144 sattv4u2

I would phrase that as creationist beleifs. Calling it a lie implies that the "teller" KNOWS creationism to be false, and teaches it a truth

They are lies. Any adult in the position of being teacher must know they are lies.

166 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:17:38pm

re: #161 george slivers

You don't understand the hierarchy of research these days. If you fail at math, logic, chemistry, physics, biology, etc. You go into evolutionary biology and stand at a podium preaching Darwinism.

Real biologists don't do Darwinism. It's irrelevant.

You're lying.

167 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:17:43pm

re: #122 zombie

I actually think the core of the opposition to evolutionary theory is the same emotion that has been guiding this from the very beginning in 1858:

People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys.
People want to think that human beings are "special" and something utterly unlike the rest of the animal kingdom.

In reality, most creationists I think don't give a hoot about whether or not dogs are related to wolves or whether fossils are 3 weeks or or 65 million years old. They simply don't want "monkey cooties."

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.

I agree, It's sad that we can't use our own minds to know that we indeed are special in our own rights, this is a form of loneliness and despair for we are ashamed to exist with such gifts of ability.

168 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:17:45pm

re: #105 Mich-again

Like I said - small sample. For a larger population, I agree.

My concern with public schools is that they aren't necessarily being indoctrinated, they aren't being supplied with an adequate background to think critically.

Shovel it in. They'll swallow it. Kinda 'splains the 'xxx Studies' classes that proliferate in Universities these days.

169 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:32pm

re: #155 Killian Bundy

No one may be teaching ID becuase of the ACLU and the liberal tyranny and oppresion we suffer in science.

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Thank you all for your support.

170 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:35pm

re: #161 george slivers

You're a hoot. What do you do for a living?

171 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:37pm

re: #116 goddessoftheclassroom

I have to point something out here.

Evolution is a very small part of a biology course. Most kids only have one life science course in junior high and one biology course in high school. It absolutely MUST be taught as part of those courses, and ID has not earned its place in the curriculum--and shouldn't until it meets the criteria of a scientific theory.

THE IMPORTANT thing, I think, is that students are free to debate and argue with their teachers based on FACTS. It's when students are told to shut up and copy down these notes--whatever the curriculum is--that there is a serious problem.

Like Global Warming, for instance?

172 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:39pm

re: #146 Kulhwch

Do you ever have anything meaningful to add?
You remind me of Grover Dill. He was Scott Farkas' little toadie in a Christmas Story.

173 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:18:53pm

re: #106 Egfrow

Because the Government is not a moral authority on deciding what "Social Causes" or entitlements are. We fought wars over that kind of thinking. When the government is in charge of distrubtion then someone has too loose who may be accused of having more.

Sorry, I don't see the answer to my question in your response.

}:)     [But I'm not as surprized about it as I used to be.  Thanks for responding.]

174 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:19:13pm

re: #170 Killgore Trout

You're a hoot. What do you do for a living?

I was thinking stand-up comic.

175 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:19:20pm

re: #128 debutaunt

Rounding up dust bunnies?

Naw - just hiding from scary, unexplicable (to her) loud random noises. she does the same when there are fireworks - its the randomness of the noise which is disturbing, and Border Collies have very sensitive hearing.

(She is bored by dust bunnies - she prefers round or oval bouncy objects!)

176 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:05pm

re: #169 george slivers

I think you're full of sh*t.

177 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:07pm

re: #166 Tigger2005

You're lying.

Let me elaborate on that.

You're telling bald-faced, brazen, naked lies.

LYING.

Bearing false witness.

I believe Yahweh frowns on that.

178 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:16pm

re: #160 zombie

Ah yes, who could ever forget Joe Mendi, the Scopes Trial chimpanzee!

Yes. I remember reading various articles, from various points of view, and thinking that I simply could NOT imagine what the street scenes must have looked and sounded like.

179 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:30pm

re: #143 redc1c4

then they need to gt that "Christian teaching" someplace other than a "public" school... where are the parents?

i don't dispute the need, simply the mechanism.

Parents?

More often than not in our society, parents are divorced, don't care or just don't have the time and a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of. If the school has to pick up where the parents left off, than-so-be-it.

No, I don't want our schools to become religious Christian modrassas, but a large percentage of Americans are Christians and to have a minority of secularists force their views on the public schools discriminates against us Christians.

For everyone here saying "send your kid to private school"...well give me the money and Ill do just that.

180 baxtrice  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:43pm

Wow, I see red negatives everywhere. Down-dingers apparently have spawned.

181 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:20:50pm

re: #170 Killgore Trout


As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

182 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:21:48pm

re: #147 Iron Fist

Agreed, Global Warming is a hoax that is being taught to our kids. But that doesn't negate the fact that Creationism is ALSO a hoax being taught (or attempted to be taught) to our kids.

People keep coming up with same argument: Gee, forget about creationism -- there's a different problem over there! None of that changes anything. It's basically like this conversation:

"This food has botulism! Don't feed it to the children!"
"Ah, don't worry the botulism -- it also has salmonella! The kids have been eating it for years."

183 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:22:15pm
184 J.S.  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:22:17pm

re: #153 jaunte

Indeed. I think some of this is going way, way beyond just teaching Evolutionary Theory (it's also about stacking TEAs with proponents of an idea; it's about firing those who stand in opposition; it's about using/abusing power; etc.)

185 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:23:09pm

re: #177 Tigger2005


I'm defending good science (ID) from those who bear false witness (Darwinists)

186 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:23:18pm

re: #179 Maximu§

a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of. If the school has to pick up where the parents left off, than-so-be-it.

1) This violates the Constitution.
2) This opens the door for a "little" islamic teaching.

187 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:23:28pm

re: #184 J.S.

I hope there is a lot of Discovery in the trial.

188 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:09pm

re: #185 george slivers

What do you think of the TEA's strong-arm tactics?

189 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:09pm

re: #136 Kulhwch


I await your evidence to show where I said such a thing. You are certainly acting stupid, that's for sure. FYI, I'm working class too. You might need to polish up your schtick, it's sticking

That was a comment aimed towards the so called "Blue States" and was stated in that context and not toward you personally. I don't know you and can only judge from what you type here. I personally don't like to make judgments ideas that are held and am always willing to engage in discussion unless hostility ensues.

190 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:17pm

re: #169 george slivers

No one may be teaching ID becuase of the ACLU and the liberal tyranny and oppresion we suffer in science.

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Thank you all for your support.

You, sir, sound like a blue-ribbon bullshit artist. I strongly suspect that statement is a bald-faced lie.

191 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:20pm

re: #165 zombie

They are lies. Any adult in the position of being teacher must know they are lies.

So every person over the age of consent, every Christian, Jew, Buhddist, Muslim, Taoist, LDS, Hindi, Wingnut that BELEIVE in ID is actually KNOWINGLY lying ?

Wow, guess the agnostics and atheiists are the only ones that can tell the TRUTH about it!

192 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:28pm

re: #154 VegasRick

Well now, you stated that "well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population..." and I said "And you have obambi to support". If you are going to throw me into that cult because of my beliefs than I think it fair to throw you into another cult because of yours.

And I do have a pretty good tan pasty boy.

i was referring to articles Charles has posted, such as this one...

whether you like it or not, they support your beliefs... think about it.

193 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:45pm

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey


It's not the job of the science teacher to peddle pseudoscience Darwinism to the masses either.

194 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:24:51pm

re: #155 Killian Bundy

Of course, no one's currently teaching ID/Creationism as part of an approved science curriculum, in any public school, anywhere in the United States.

/and, as has been the case for decades now, they'll lose in court if they try to teach ID/Creationism as science and that's a fact

And yet they keep trying and trying and trying...

195 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:25:23pm

re: #174 Sharmuta

I was thinking stand-up comic.

Nope, he's nowhere NEAR good enough.

196 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:25:27pm

re: #179 Maximu§

Parents?

More often than not in our society, parents are divorced, don't care or just don't have the time and a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of. If the school has to pick up where the parents left off, than-so-be-it.

No, I don't want our schools to become religious Christian modrassas, but a large percentage of Americans are Christians and to have a minority of secularists force their views on the public schools discriminates against us Christians.

For everyone here saying "send your kid to private school"...well give me the money and Ill do just that.

for better or worse, the Constitution forbids what you propose. you'll need a new plan.

197 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:25:30pm
198 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:25:39pm

re: #188 jaunte

What do you think of the TEA's strong-arm tactics?

That wasn't nearly as "strong armed" as what has been done to scientists who are ID supporters. You need to watch "Expelled"

199 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:26:08pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

Bullshit

200 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:26:16pm
201 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:26:25pm

re: #198 george slivers

I see, so one of them was fired for sending an email with the note "FYI?"

202 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:26:27pm

re: #198 george slivers

Are you Michael Behe?

203 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:27:04pm

re: #198 george slivers

That wasn't nearly as "strong armed" as what has been done to scientists who are ID supporters. You need to watch "Expelled"

I was once "expelled" from the cub scouts. All I did was try to eat a brownie! Does that count ?

BAD SATT ,,, BAD BAD BAD !

204 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:27:25pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

Give us the name and date of one peer-reviewed journal you have been published in so that we may read about your "breakthroughs."

205 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:27:45pm

re: #179 Maximu§

Parents?

More often than not in our society, parents are divorced, don't care or just don't have the time and a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of. If the school has to pick up where the parents left off, than-so-be-it.

No, I don't want our schools to become religious Christian modrassas, but a large percentage of Americans are Christians and to have a minority of secularists force their views on the public schools discriminates against us Christians.

For everyone here saying "send your kid to private school"...well give me the money and Ill do just that.

OMG you have to be kidding. I'm terribly sorry, but I don't buy this whiny Christian thing. A previously banned poster Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named did that constantly and it drove me insane.

You have the nerve to say that YOUR being discriminated against while you advocate discriminating against others!

Firstly, "Non-Christian" doesn't mean "secularist". Secondly, these arguments are spelled out quite neatly in the Constitution. Period, end of story.

206 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:25pm

re: #204 Basho

Give us the name and date of one peer-reviewed journal you have been published in so that we may read about your "breakthroughs."

He won't, because he hasn't published anything of the sort.

207 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:31pm

re: #196 redc1c4

for better or worse, the Constitution forbids what you propose. you'll need a new plan.

the constitution forbids me from sending my son to private school ?

208 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:32pm

re: #194 zombie


It's the anti-Darwin allele we suffer from. It has pleiotropic effects that include increased reproduction and passing on this gene to the next generation. You can count on use challenging the phony propoganda of Darwinism until the human race is extinct.

209 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:36pm

re: #170 Killgore Trout

You're a hoot. What do you do for a living?

It claims to be a nationally known leading biologist, but it's lying.

210 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:28:56pm
211 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:29:25pm
212 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:29:37pm

re: #169 george slivers

I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Thank you all for your support.

No one here believes that act anymore.

213 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:29:45pm

re: #206 pre-Boomer Marine brat

He won't, because he hasn't published anything of the sort.

I have my picture on post office walls, does that count? And my Mom always wanted my photo on a milk carton!

214 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:29:55pm

I pointed this out earlier. Funny that the Biblical literalists have given up on the Biblical explanation of the heavens. Of course that took centuries of arguing with or even imprisoning astronomers who questioned the "firmament" as it was described in Genesis.

And now the same arguments come up regarding the propagation of life throughout the planet. The literal text which failed so bad at describing the heavens is again held out as the literal authority on how life spread throughout the planet.

215 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:03pm
re: #117 VegasRick
re: #92 Occasional Reader

Examples, please.

re: #12 Kulhwch

Okay, now we start the official countdown to the obligatory "Wah, wah, you're making fun of my faith, you heartless bastards" speech.

}:) [Everybody pick a square on the poll sheet? Everybody put their dollar in?]

Okay, I guess we have a winner, or a whiner, depending on point of view.  I think you get extra points for a non-traditional whine, but most of that will be left up to the judges.  The countdown appears to be over.  Everyone tally up their sheets.

re: #16 Kulhwch

Charles:

Excellent entertainment for a Sunday morning. IMNSHO, this beats church all hollow. Thanks.

}:) [But then, my worship is different.]

And I'm sniping at religion by saying that my religion is different, how?

And many others on most of the ID threads.

You know, running around screaming "Is too!" "Is too!" "Is too!" is not really a valid answer.

}:)     [Bet you have more to say about me undermining your religious views, don't you?]

216 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:19pm

re: #197 buzzsawmonkey

Nervous Norvus--"Ape Call"

The proper theme song for these threads.

How about the Kinks' 'Apeman'?

217 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:34pm

re: #204 Basho

Give us the name and date of one peer-reviewed journal you have been published in so that we may read about your "breakthroughs."

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

218 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:45pm

re: #212 zombie

It doesn't actually bear out the assertion of 'Expelled' that pro ID scientists are suffering terrible discrimination, does it?

219 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:53pm

re: #214 Mich-again

+ 127819728927! :-D

220 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:30:59pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

Stop! Yer killin' me!

221 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:31:19pm
222 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:31:32pm

re: #192 redc1c4

i was referring to articles Charles has posted, such as this one...

whether you like it or not, they support your beliefs... think about it.

You and I probably agree on 99% of the issues, just not this one. I think trying to influence my beliefs by stating that "I agree with muslims" is not right. I would die for your right to believe as you will and I think others should at least not mock or ridicule my beliefs.

223 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:32:09pm

re: #217 george slivers

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

Oh ... how very CONVENIENT!
You are a ball-less wonder!

224 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:32:46pm

re: #194 zombie

And yet they keep trying and trying and trying...

And consistently going down in legal flames with every attempt, a persistent nuisance, nothing more.

/not even showing up on radar as far as exigent threats to the U.S. public education system are concerned

225 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:33:10pm

re: #217 george slivers

It's not that you won't, it's that you can't.

226 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:33:59pm

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey

I didn't. But now I shall. Wasn't Nervous Norvus featured on Dr. Demento a lot?

I know. I'll go look.

Google. Hate it. Makes me do my own damn work.

227 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:01pm

re: #173 Kulhwch

Sorry, I don't see the answer to my question in your response.

}:)     [But I'm not as surprized about it as I used to be.  Thanks for responding.]

With all due respect, you should re phrase or restate your question so that I can have a real chance at addressing it instead of being defensive about it. I said your remark was elitist but did not call you one as you are degrading to here. The quesiton I read was

Now why would we fight against cultural diversity or social programs?

That's the one I responded to. Can you elaborate on what your definition of Cultural Diversity or Social Programs mean so that I can properly respond. Don't worry, I don't slobber, I'm just curious.

228 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:02pm

re: #122 zombie

I actually think the core of the opposition to evolutionary theory is the same emotion that has been guiding this from the very beginning in 1858:

People don't want to admit they are descended from and related to monkeys.
People want to think that human beings are "special" and something utterly unlike the rest of the animal kingdom.

In reality, most creationists I think don't give a hoot about whether or not dogs are related to wolves or whether fossils are 3 weeks or or 65 million years old. They simply don't want "monkey cooties."

That was the very first emotional motivation for the argument against evolution, and it remains the primary emotional motivation today.

It's sad on another level, that of the fact that they're right, they're NOT descended from monkeys.  They're descended from ape-like-hominids.  They're screaming about a non-issue, and they don't even know it.

}:)     [Maybe if they'd been TAUGHT evolution in school, they wouldn't make that mistake?]

229 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:22pm

re: #213 sattv4u2

I have my picture on post office walls, does that count? And my Mom always wanted my photo on a milk carton!

I strongly suspect that this little twit is after recognition.

230 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:26pm

Poll: Creationism, Intelligent Design Still Taught in U.S. Classrooms.
" One in eight U.S. high school biology teachers presents creationism or intelligent design in a positive light in the classroom, a new survey shows, despite a federal court's recent ban against it.

And a quarter of the nation's high school biology teachers say they devoted at least one or two classroom hours to the topics, with about half presenting it favorably and half presenting it as an invalid alternative.

Those results are part of a nationally representative, random sample of 939 teachers who filled out surveys between March 5, 2007, and May 1, 2007 on questions concerning the teaching of evolution. The figures have a 3 percent margin of error.

The research, funded by the National Science Foundation, also revealed that between 12 percent and 16 percent of the nation's biology teachers are creationists.

About one in six of them have a "young Earth" orientation, which means they believe that human beings were created by God in their present form within the past 10,000 years.
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

231 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:27pm

re: #217 george slivers

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

BTW, what's your IQ?

232 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:28pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

Provide one example of this ID related "science"

233 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:28pm

re: #151 marjoriemoon

NO religion in school. That's what your clergy is for.

How about all the kids who aren't Christians? Screw them?

No, but maybe they can learn something about Faith...that little thing inside of us Christians that sends us all over the world to feed the poor, build houses and try to make the world a better place.

I saw an old Mexican woman in a Catholic Church one day and on her knee's she went from the back of the chuch to the front reading from the Bible every step of the way...it took her hours and I was awed.

Thats Faith.

You like the ACLU? Because your supporting their positions right here and now.

234 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:34:45pm

re: #217 george slivers

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

So that's zero? If you're not getting published your "research" ain't worth jack.

Talk about bearing false witness. You're a compulsive liar.

235 ProUSA  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:35:19pm

I pay to send my kids to Catholic school. They learn about evolution beginning in kindergarten.

If there are facts to be analyzed that appear to be contrary to evolutionary theory, by all means address them. But, creationism under the current cover of "intelligent design" have so far failed to scientifically prove any of their claims -- starting with the age of the Earth. If you can't get that right, you are starting on the wrong foot. Most of these people mean well, but they are like Islamic extremists in their ignorance and blind obedience to flawed literal interpretations. "Faith" does not require blind ignorance. If you find you are ignoring sound scientific evidence to practice your faith, you may want to rethink things -- if you are still cable of free thinking or free will.

A lot of these people see the extreme leftist domination of politics and media and run to misguided fundamentalism in fear. It's fine to seek shelter in your faith, but don't turn your brain off in the process.

236 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:35:32pm

re: #223 pre-Boomer Marine brat

As most of us leading investigators are supporters of ID, we use code language in the discussion of our peer-reviewed manuscripts. Most of it is added in to the galley-proof after the paper has been accepted. Things like, "enzyme X has a USEFUL PURPOSE" or "Protein X is WELL DESIGNED FOR ..."

237 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:35:39pm

re: #195 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Nope, he's nowhere NEAR good enough.

Stand-up colonic.

238 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:35:50pm

re: #231 CyanSnowHawk

BTW, what's your IQ?

Huh?

239 VegasRick  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:36:08pm

re: #215 Kulhwch

You know, running around screaming "Is too!" "Is too!" "Is too!" is not really a valid answer.

}:)     [Bet you have more to say about me undermining your religious views, don't you?]

Excellent entertainment for a Sunday morning. IMNSHO, this beats church all hollow. Thanks.

}:) [But then, my worship is different.]

And I'm sniping at religion by saying that my religion is different, how?

By saying other religions (church) is hollow.

240 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:36:48pm

re: #191 sattv4u2

So every person over the age of consent, every Christian, Jew, Buhddist, Muslim, Taoist, LDS, Hindi, Wingnut that BELEIVE in ID is actually KNOWINGLY lying ?

Yes, I think that most of them know they are lying. All it takes is five minutes to wrap your mind around how evolution-through-natural-selection works, and you go, "D'oh! Of course! it's so obvious!" But having done that, apparently a lot of people start to ponder the consequences of their relevation, and consciously backpedal and retreat from the truth.

Wow, guess the agnostics and atheiists are the only ones that can tell the TRUTH about it!

So you're syaing that every single person who accepts evolution as real is an agnostic or atheist? Fascinating theory!

241 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:06pm

re: #232 JamesWI


I don't know but my h-index is 40. What his yours? If you do not know what an h-index is then dont' waste my time and go get an education.

242 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:12pm

re: #236 george slivers

As most of us leading investigators are supporters of ID, we use code language in the discussion of our peer-reviewed manuscripts. Most of it is added in to the galley-proof after the paper has been accepted. Things like, "enzyme X has a USEFUL PURPOSE" or "Protein X is WELL DESIGNED FOR ..."

Are you a freshman or a sophomore?

243 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:15pm

re: #229 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Perhaps is real name is George Costanza, from Seinfeld fame. When George wanted to impress someone (read female) he would say he always wanted to pretend to be an architect or a marine biologist!

244 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:46pm

re: #236 george slivers

As most of us leading investigators are supporters of ID, we use code language in the discussion of our peer-reviewed manuscripts. Most of it is added in to the galley-proof after the paper has been accepted. Things like, "enzyme X has a USEFUL PURPOSE" or "Protein X is WELL DESIGNED FOR ..."

So- you have to use code words to describe what are in your own words what "real biologists" do- which is support ID. Your double talk is mind bogglingly inane.

245 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:49pm

re: #211 Iron Fist

,

The Constitution forbids the establishment of a State religion. I'm of the mind that that also forbids the establishment of Atheism as the Official State Religion. Yet that is what we are coming closer and closer to. That may not concern you, but it concerns me.

And it violates the Constitution as well.

I tend to agree with that. According to the wording of the First Amendment Congress shall make no law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. You could make a case that many laws and regulations are out there that prohibit the free exercise of religion. In a way, its almost been twisted into saying you must worship as you wish, but only in a private place, not in public. And that is not what the original intent was.

246 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:55pm

re: #225 Sharmuta

It's not that you won't, it's that you can't.

No, somethings cannot be pulled up on a computer...it has to come from the heart, something you sorely lack.

247 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:37:55pm

re: #179 Maximu§

a "little" Christian teachings never hurt anyone that I know of.


How about the Jews. Do they need a "little" Jesus in their life too? We live in a society where it is unacceptable to force your religion on other people. What about the Muslims who think you need a little Allah in your life. Do they have the right to force it on you or are you advocating that you have special rights that the rest of us aren't entitled to?

248 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:02pm

re: #197 buzzsawmonkey

Nervous Norvus--"Ape Call"

The proper theme song for these threads.

I cannot believe that's on YouTube! I actually own that record! I thought I was the only one who even knew it existed.

It's extremely catchy, btw.

249 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:04pm

re: #241 george slivers

I don't know but my h-index is 40. What his yours? If you do not know what an h-index is then dont' waste my time and go get an education.

I ask you to provide an example of ID science, and you say "I don't know." Then you try to imply that I am uneducated. You sir, are a prick, and a liar.

250 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:24pm

re: #181 george slivers

As I've said, I am a genetic epidemiologist and most of my salary comes from the NIH (your tax dollars) and most of my research and break throughs are directly related to ID.

What exactly do you have to do to become a genetic epidemiologist?

And can you name one specific ID break through?

251 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:33pm
re: #133 Mich-again
re: #111 Syrah

The strongest, smartest, and fastest can lose out to those that just reproduce more numerously.

True, look at human history. You can acquire land through power, but it takes people to occupy the land to keep it. Same kind of thing goes for reserving curb space at a big parade. You can hold onto territory for a while by telling people you are saving the spot, but if your friends don't get there soon enough the crowd will eventually move into the space.

Hell, just look at how the Islamacists are outbreeding those of other faiths in the countries of Europe, like Steyn pointed out in his book.

}:)     [If our current war isn't social evolution in action, I don't know what it is.]

252 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:38:36pm

re: #241 george slivers

I don't know but my h-index is 40. What his yours? If you do not know what an h-index is then dont' waste my time and go get an education.

Hubris-index, measured in powers of ten.

253 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:03pm

re: #243 sattv4u2

Perhaps is real name is George Costanza, from Seinfeld fame. When George wanted to impress someone (read female) he would say he always wanted to pretend to be an architect or a marine biologist!

Very possible.

254 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:11pm

re: #220 zombie

Stop! Yer killin' me!

HAHAHAHAHAHHA

255 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:23pm

George, that's not a Hirshi bar you're peddling.

256 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:28pm

re: #246 Maximu§

How very Christian of you.

257 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:39:43pm

re: #238 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Huh?

It sounds a little familiar, like an IQ boaster that was here and got banned last year sometime.

258 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:40:09pm

re: #169 george slivers

Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

500K to read the Bible?

259 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:40:12pm

re: #240 zombie

So you're syaing that every single person who accepts evolution as real is an agnostic or atheist? Fascinating theory!

no, , it was to show the folly of you asserting that everyone that believes in ID LYING. See how absolutes are dangerous?

260 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:40:58pm

re: #212 zombie

No one here believes that act anymore.


Suppose it is true. What a huge scandal it would be if the NIH was funding creationist research. I'd love to see some of his published studies. It would be an LGF exclusive.

261 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:41:34pm
262 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:41:38pm

re: #251 Kulhwch

Hell, just look at how the Islamacists are outbreeding those of other faiths in the countries of Europe, like Steyn pointed out in his book.

}:)     [If our current war isn't social evolution in action, I don't know what it is.]

Ahem - 'social evolution' is an expression dangerously close to the mindset of the 'progressives', as described very well in 'Liberal Fascism' ...

263 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:42:18pm

re: #198 george slivers

That wasn't nearly as "strong armed" as what has been done to scientists who are ID supporters. You need to watch "Expelled"

Ben Stein is okay in small doses. I won't criticize the movie since I won't be able to watch it.

Still, can you debunk the debunkers.

264 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:42:34pm

re: #249 JamesWI

I ask you to provide an example of ID science, and you say "I don't know." Then you try to imply that I am uneducated. You sir, are a prick, and a liar.

Actually, any study in biology or astrophysics supports ID. The fine tuning, the elaborate detail, the specified complexity, the irreducible complexity, etc... ID, like Darwinian evolution, can't be proven with a single study. They are more of competing metatheories. ID just happens to fit the data better. But Darwinists have preconceved lenses they use to interpret their data and that is why they are usually individuals who dropped out of more rigorous scientific disciplines.

265 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:42:46pm

re: #247 Killgore Trout

How about the Jews. Do they need a "little" Jesus in their life too? We live in a society where it is unacceptable to force your religion on other people. What about the Muslims who think you need a little Allah in your life. Do they have the right to force it on you or are you advocating that you have special rights that the rest of us aren't entitled to?

Nice try KT, but your argument leaves out one important fact. Christians are STILL the majority in America and we still call the shots. That may sound cruel, but do I believe America is Christianities last stronghold.

Europe has been conquered, the churches are empty and the Mosques are full and now the secularist are trying to do the same in America. This subject is one battle in an on-going war.

266 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:15pm

re: #154 VegasRick

Well now, you stated that "well, at least the intelligent design people can count on the support of the Muslim population...." and I said "And you have obambi to support". If you are going to throw me into that cult because of my beliefs than I think it fair to throw you into another cult because of yours.

And I do have a pretty good tan pasty boy.

The evidence supports his statement.

267 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:32pm

re: #259 sattv4u2

So you're syaing that every single person who accepts evolution as real is an agnostic or atheist? Fascinating theory!

no, , it was to show the folly of you asserting that everyone that believes in ID LYING. See how absolutes are dangerous?

"Yes, I think that most of them know they are lying."

He said "most".

268 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:38pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

Suppose it is true. What a huge scandal it would be if the NIH was funding creationist research. I'd love to see some of his published studies. It would be an LGF exclusive.

No, because if he actually gives even one example, he will be EXPELLED! (Cue the ominous music). Funny, I'd think if he didn't have any examples, the NIH would stop funding his great research, and if he had published anything, he would be "expelled" already. Another fascinating tale from the compulsive liar.

269 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:48pm

re: #149 george slivers

The decline of the American youth and the replacement of parents by big government is a direct result of Darwinists imposing their self-defeating ideology.

The big scare is the decline in science Darwinism has brought about. My junior research colleauges lack the critical thinking skills because they have been taught, "If it don't make sense, evolution did it". I coined it the "Darwin-of-the-gaps" approach to science.

So, would you continue this "trend" by usurping parental control over a child's faith upbringing by inserting the government's Dept of Ed approved version of faith into science classes?

270 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:43:51pm

re: #257 CyanSnowHawk

It sounds a little familiar, like an IQ boaster that was here and got banned last year sometime.

Something in my memory says this might be the guy who gave out a link to a "scientific" paper he'd written -- several weeks ago on an ID thread. The "paper" was utter crap.

Does anyone else recall that? Am I mistaken?

271 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:44:12pm

re: #264 george slivers

Actually, any study in biology or astrophysics supports ID. The fine tuning, the elaborate detail, the specified complexity, the irreducible complexity, etc... ID, like Darwinian evolution, can't be proven with a single study. They are more of competing metatheories. ID just happens to fit the data better. But Darwinists have preconceved lenses they use to interpret their data and that is why they are usually individuals who dropped out of more rigorous scientific disciplines.

HAHAHA! Whoever said he was a stand-up comic was definitely right!

272 Maximu§  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:44:50pm

Have to go mow the lawn...take care all.

273 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:44:57pm

We usually refer to call a partially rationalized thought as being "Half Baked". This is the classification I give and the apologists of Creationism and ID. It's a form of laziness not stupidity. This is what currently drives most of the worlds actions. Half Baked and Half Cocked ideas eventually have to meet reality and it's never pretty.

274 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:19pm

re: #272 Maximu§

Have to go mow the lawn...take care all.

You forgot to exclude me, right?

275 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:20pm
276 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:29pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

Suppose it is true. What a huge scandal it would be if the NIH was funding creationist research. I'd love to see some of his published studies. It would be an LGF exclusive.

*grin*
Wow! Them 'd be some BUTTOCKS!

277 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:39pm

re: #127 Maximu§

which means, of course, teaching the “strengths” of the creationist flavor of the month, “intelligent design

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

i certainly agree w/ your statement that the crop of teens we have today could use some religious teachings but maybe the best way for them to get that is in theology class, sunday school or from their parents.
rather than in a science class.

it seems like i.d.'s purpose in the class room is not to teach faith per se but just to disprove evolution. religion should not be threatened by science or compete w/ it. in a way, that demeans religion which i see as faith based and able to stand on its own.
imho.

278 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:40pm

re: #267 DeathtotheSwiss

"Yes, I think that most of them know they are lying."

He said "most".

and do you beleive that? "MOST", i.e. 50% plus one of ALL people the believe in ID?

Again, words have meaning (well, at least MOST words do)

279 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:45:57pm

re: #258 DeathtotheSwiss

500K to read the Bible?

Nice job if you can get it. Does walking down the aisle of a church at the same time qualify for a bonus?

280 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:46:22pm

re: #264 george slivers

Actually, any study in biology or astrophysics supports ID. The fine tuning, the elaborate detail, the specified complexity, the irreducible complexity, etc... ID, like Darwinian evolution, can't be proven with a single study. They are more of competing metatheories. ID just happens to fit the data better. But Darwinists have preconceved lenses they use to interpret their data and that is why they are usually individuals who dropped out of more rigorous scientific disciplines.

So, if every science besides evolutionary biology is filled with ID proponents, how exactly do you propose that you (and anyone else who proposes ID related science) would be "expelled" from the scientific community? It's hard to kick people out when they are apparently vastly outnumbered, or so you claim.

281 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:46:25pm

re: #269 reine.de.tout

So, would you continue this "trend" by usurping parental control over a child's faith upbringing by inserting the government's Dept of Ed approved version of faith into science classes?

It doesn't have to be an "either/or" Teach both and teach the controversy. Or be a tyrannical coward and impose only one viewpoint.

282 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:46:33pm
283 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:46:57pm

re: #169 george slivers

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Do tell? What is the nature of this ID-related research?

284 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:47:19pm

re: #275 buzzsawmonkey

He is simultaneously well-funded, and persecuted by Darwinian zealots. So there is some Mittyesque complexity for sure.

285 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:47:51pm
re: #159 VegasRick
re: #146 Kulhwch

Would have to be twice as good as sex with you, sir.

}:) [And I'm not the one spontaneously wanking in the thread.]

Blow me.

Oh, you wish.  That's exactly the type of well-thought-out and intellectual response I expected to get from you.

}:)     [You may need to troll somewhere else to get a date, sweetheart.]

286 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:47:54pm

re: #265 Maximu§

Christians are STILL the majority in America and we still call the shots. That may sound cruel, but do I believe America is Christianities last stronghold.


Wow, Christian supremicism on display. If you've ever wondered why Christians still make Jews nervous look no further than your arrogance. Christians do not get special rights under our Constitution. Our country was not set up that way because it's unfair to everybody else. Which version of Christianity are you advocating we force on everybody? Lutheran, Baptist or Catholic?

287 zombie  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:11pm

re: #224 Killian Bundy

And consistently going down in legal flames with every attempt, a persistent nuisance, nothing more.

/not even showing up on radar as far as exigent threats to the U.S. public education system are concerned

It's not the threat to the puboic education system so much, but what I've explained here dozens of times:

The creationist movement is threatening to destroy conservatism in the United States. If we don't distance ourselves from creationists, we will go down in flames ourselves, politically.

Out in the mediasphere and the court of public opinion, creationism is, at a minimum, completely laughable, and at a maximum possibly dangerous if not stopped. And it is (accurately, unfortunately) associated exclusively with "conservative voters." It is iused to bash us relentlessly, and believe me the Left will not stop using this to bash us as long as they are able.

We need to grab the middle in the election to win. And with creationism dragging around behind us on the ground like some grotesque tumor, we're not going to succeed at that.

288 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:24pm

re: #268 JamesWI

Agreed.

289 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:36pm

re: #127 Maximu§

Sounds good to me, take God out of everything and whats left?

There must be some balance here, too much religion and the schools become madrassas...too little and they become a secular playground in which the Good Lord's name is ridiculed.

I look at the crop of teens we have today and I think a little Christian teaching would'nt hurt them at all. Go ahead and ding me down for this comment...its a badge of honor.

I get the impression, reading comments on this issue, that many see the solution in schools. My personal life experience, and that of my children was that matters of morality, ethics and, dare I say faith, were learned from the home more than anywhere else. If we truly expect that the school system is to be the primary teacher of such matters, then we might as well go all the way and call ourselves communists, without responsibility for our own lives.

Of course educating incompetent parents in parenting is not either the responsibility of the state, but educating them in something as simple and basic as birth control most certainly is, since the worst of those losers on the street corners are invariably children of children, and largely supported by all of us.

Who is guilty? Perhaps the Pope is a good place to start with someone whose head is stuck firmly in the sand when it comes to the realities of human sexuality.

As to Islam, that approach won't work, since their objection to birth control is firmly rooted in the objective of out breeding and outnumbering everyone else.

290 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:48pm

re: #284 jaunte

He is simultaneously well-funded, and persecuted by Darwinian zealots. So there is some Mittyesque complexity for sure.

How very apt that you recall Mitty.

291 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:48:55pm

You know, I've been hesitant to reveal this up until now, but "george slivers" has shown me the way.

I am actually an aeronautical engineer, and all of my breakthrough research (funded by NASA, that's your tax dollars) has been based on anti-gravity powered UFOs that we're keeping at Area 51.

So now it's out there.

292 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:49:37pm

I would think if "George Slivers" is getting taxpayer funds from the NIH, he has to have some published peer reviewed research to back getting my money for research. So where are the papers George? Or are you perpertrating a fraud on the US Gov't.?

293 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:49:47pm

re: #265 Maximu§

Nice try KT, but your argument leaves out one important fact. Christians are STILL the majority in America and we still call the shots. That may sound cruel, but do I believe America is Christianities last stronghold.

Europe has been conquered, the churches are empty and the Mosques are full and now the secularist are trying to do the same in America. This subject is one battle in an on-going war.

I sympathize with this position. Still, denying physical reality is the quickest way to eliminate a religion. Without a harmony between Christianity and science, the battle won't be going to the believers favor.

294 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:05pm

re: #233 Maximu§

No, but maybe they [children] can learn something about Faith

Great. Go ahead and teach them. Why do you want the government to do it?

295 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:38pm

re: #233 Maximu§

No, but maybe they can learn something about Faith...that little thing inside of us Christians that sends us all over the world to feed the poor, build houses and try to make the world a better place.

I saw an old Mexican woman in a Catholic Church one day and on her knee's she went from the back of the chuch to the front reading from the Bible every step of the way...it took her hours and I was awed.

Thats Faith.

You like the ACLU? Because your supporting their positions right here and now.

Compassion is a HUMAN trait. If you want to argue it started with religion, it came before yours then.

I have no problem teaching children compassion via more social programs like reading to the elderly or feeding the homeless, but they should be free of religious doctrine or ideology. Children need to know that no matter their religion or lack thereof, compassion is a virtue.

And yes, I like the ACLU. The ACLU took up the fight in Pennsylvania. Do I like everything they do? No.

296 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:38pm

re: #290 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Well... I did write the character, while flying my jet, with my wife Morgan Fairchild by my side, taking down dictation for my significant research./

297 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:41pm

re: #280 JamesWI

So, if every science besides evolutionary biology is filled with ID proponents, how exactly do you propose that you (and anyone else who proposes ID related science) would be "expelled" from the scientific community? It's hard to kick people out when they are apparently vastly outnumbered, or so you claim.


You are putting words in my mouth. I said that under-achievers go into Darwinism becuase it they lack critical thinking skills to do real science. Most scientists, simply do not care. If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues. You learn to pick your fights carefully in academics.

298 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:50:58pm

re: #284 jaunte

He is simultaneously well-funded, and persecuted by Darwinian zealots. So there is some Mittyesque complexity for sure.

tapocketa pocketa pocketa

299 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:51:17pm

re: #265 Maximu§

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Christians are STILL the majority in America and we still call the shots.

MAX,

As a practicing Roman Catholic I find that statement troubling. This country was founded on the principle that the majority did NOT call the shots. That is why it was set up as a representative republic, not a democracy
In a democracy, you can have 2 wolves and 1 sheep voting on what to have for dinner !

300 willowone  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:51:36pm

i'm very appreciative of the combined knowledge on this topic by room members, when it first appeared as a topic i was confused why, and the rangling between members.
anyway my gratefulness came slowly i was pained to see the anger and frustration by both sides defending their argument. truth must win out, i don't feel very happy with the idea of my children being taught false ideas in any subject.
killgore responses were excellant and helped clarify a great reason for me. but the most important to me is that we don't allow our children to be taught ideas that won't hold up if that becomes their field of choice, what would be then have been the use of education .
education should remain at all times provable fact.
as a religious person i don't feel fearful that my children will fall out of love with G-d or be weakened by truth.
in fact i believe this gives more energy to study G-d harder, and that is exciting in itself.

301 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:12pm

re: #287 zombie

The creationist movement is threatening to destroy conservatism in the United States. If we don't distance ourselves from creationists, we will go down in flames ourselves, politically.

Bingo. It's a poison pill.

302 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:21pm

re: #287 zombie

The creationist movement is threatening to destroy conservatism in the United States. If we don't distance ourselves from creationists, we will go down in flames ourselves, politically.

/funny, that's the first time I've heard or read that Creationism is an issue in this election cycle

303 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:22pm
304 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:28pm

re: #287 zombie

Absolutely spot on.

I also see it as a threat generally against science - together with algoreism, which is now starting to be debunked.
In the minds of the general public these two, taken together, can and will do enormous damage to all scientific endeavours, and we might well end up with a pre-scientific mindset, based on irrationalism.

305 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:52:29pm

Although we differ on matters of faith, I hope we agree on matters of character, such Courage, Loyalty, Justice, Respect, Hope, Honesty, and Love.

This is what our district offers:

[Link: www.heartwoodethics.org...]

306 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:53:08pm

re: #299 sattv4u2

America protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

307 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:53:12pm

re: #297 george slivers

You are putting words in my mouth. I said that under-achievers go into Darwinism becuase it they lack critical thinking skills to do real science. Most scientists, simply do not care. If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues. You learn to pick your fights carefully in academics.

Huh. So if "real" scientists don't care about evolution vs. creationism, they pick the side of the "lesser/incompetent" scientists? Some logic skills you've got there.

308 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:53:37pm

re: #305 goddessoftheclassroom

Although we differ on matters of faith, I hope we agree on matters of character, such Courage, Loyalty, Justice, Respect, Hope, Honesty, and Love.

This is what our district offers:

[Link: www.heartwoodethics.org...]

I always wanted to play the Cowardly Lion. Where's my mane?

309 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:53:46pm

re: #291 Occasional Reader

You know, I've been hesitant to reveal this up until now, but "george slivers" has shown me the way.

I am actually an aeronautical engineer, and all of my breakthrough research (funded by NASA, that's your tax dollars) has been based on anti-gravity powered UFOs that we're keeping at Area 51.

So now it's out there.



You have proof? Cool!

310 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:54:29pm

A Tribute to George Slivers:

The decline of the American youth and the replacement of parents by big government is a direct result of Darwinists imposing their self-defeating ideology.

Note how he expertly avoids explaining how "Darwinism" (the outdated version of Evolution that has since been updated and revised) is...self-defeating idelogy. And how exactly does an observation about bones and species count as an "ideology"?

You don't understand the hierarchy of research these days. If you fail at math, logic, chemistry, physics, biology, etc. You go into evolutionary biology and stand at a podium preaching Darwinism.

Nobody's preaching Darwinism, but here's a nice bit of reverse psychology. If you suck at math and logic then you're going to "fall" for the idiotic idea that creatures change over the course of a few million years.

No one may be teaching ID becuase of the ACLU and the liberal tyranny and oppresion we suffer in science.

Always watch out for that darn oppresion. Becuase the darn ACLU is sooo against teaching real scizenze!

I'm defending good science (ID) from those who bear false witness (Darwinists)

How exactly is ID science? What is the definition of good science then?

Actually, any study in biology or astrophysics supports ID. The fine tuning, the elaborate detail, the specified complexity, the irreducible complexity, etc... ID, like Darwinian evolution, can't be proven with a single study. They are more of competing metatheories. ID just happens to fit the data better. But Darwinists have preconceved lenses they use to interpret their data and that is why they are usually individuals who dropped out of more rigorous scientific disciplines.

ID fits what data better? The Bible? The Koran?

And can you name a few Evolutionary Biologists/Paleontologists who, as you say, dropped out of the more rigorous scientific disciplines? Or are you going to continue being completely dishonest and silly?

311 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:54:47pm

re: #296 jaunte

Well... I did write the character, while flying my jet, with my wife Morgan Fairchild by my side, taking down dictation for my significant research./

Yes, NOW I remember you! I gave you your first pink slip for that story, back when you tried to crash the gate at San Simeon.

312 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:55:17pm

re: #297 george slivers

You are putting words in my mouth. I said that under-achievers go into Darwinism becuase it they lack critical thinking skills to do real science. Most scientists, simply do not care. If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues. You learn to pick your fights carefully in academics.

Clearly you are not picking your fight here very carefully, but then again clearly this is not quite academia, nor are you an academic.

I smell a troll.

313 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:55:23pm

re: #283 Slumbering Behemoth

Do tell? What is the nature of this ID-related research?

You heartless bastard! If he tells us that, he'll be hunted down by the relentless Darwinist hit squads!

314 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:11pm

re: #291 Occasional Reader

You know, I've been hesitant to reveal this up until now, but "george slivers" has shown me the way.

I am actually an aeronautical engineer, and all of my breakthrough research (funded by NASA, that's your tax dollars) has been based on anti-gravity powered UFOs that we're keeping at Area 51.

So now it's out there.

Gee, this could get to be FUN!
Thanks, George!

315 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:12pm

re: #297 george slivers

"If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues."
I think you're outing yourself here, as a non-scientist. Scientists don't much care about "keeping the peace." They get rewarded for poking effective holes in someone else's work.

316 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:13pm

re: #278 sattv4u2

and do you beleive that? "MOST", i.e. 50% plus one of ALL people the believe in ID?

Again, words have meaning (well, at least MOST words do)

I believe MOST people don't understand science or math. Which is why I'm going to do my best to give my son a good start in both.

Deep Blue (BBC) and The Universe (History Channel)...and I guess I'll go with PBS and myself for math!

317 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:23pm
re: #172 Mich-again
re: #146 Kulhwch
re: #78 VegasRick

Most folks here don't want to read that, they would rather snipe at religion and it's teachings and whoever this "Kulhwch" person is can go screw themselves.

Would have to be twice as good as sex with you, sir.

}:) [And I'm not the one spontaneously wanking in the thread.]

Do you ever have anything meaningful to add?
You remind me of Grover Dill. He was Scott Farkas' little toadie in a Christmas Story.

Well, old son, it was a clear case of GIGO, as one can clearly see.  VegasRick tossed garbage at me, I tossed it back.  You jumped in because the notion of a fair fight is foreign to your nature.

}:)     [Gonna call me a skank now that we've disagreed?]

318 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:27pm
319 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:56:54pm

re: #312 Naso Tang

Clearly you are not picking your fight here very carefully, but then again clearly this is not quite academia, nor are you an academic.

I smell a troll.

Well, either a troll or a lying moron. Either way, perhaps we all should just start ignoring him.

320 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:58:08pm

re: #303 buzzsawmonkey

In that case, you should be arguing for the introduction of religious teaching in gym class

You're referring of course to... cross-training.

/rimshot

321 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:58:10pm

re: #217 george slivers

re: #204 Basho

Give us the name and date of one peer-reviewed journal you have been published in so that we may read about your "breakthroughs."



Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

If what you say is true, than how did you manage to get a gov't grant for "ID-related research" in such an environment? Did you steal that money?

322 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:58:32pm

re: #315 jaunte

"If it keeps the peace, they support their lesser colleagues."
I think you're outing yourself here, as a non-scientist. Scientists don't much care about "keeping the peace." They get rewarded for poking effective holes in someone else's work.

No, we love poking holes in other peoples work in our field of study. Not an areas we lack published expertise.

323 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:59:38pm

re: #319 JamesWI

Well, either a troll or a lying moron. Either way, perhaps we all should just start ignoring him.

Everyone is an equal opportunity target and none should miss a chance at fame just because they may be morons. That would be discriminatory.

324 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 12:59:49pm
re: #177 Tigger2005
re: #166 Tigger2005

You're lying.

Let me elaborate on that.

You're telling bald-faced, brazen, naked lies.

LYING.

Bearing false witness.

I believe Yahweh frowns on that.

And yet the behavior is so damned pervasive in these sorts of threads, no?

}:)     [Fundamentalists.  Go figure.]

325 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:00:19pm

re: #281 george slivers

It doesn't have to be an "either/or" Teach both and teach the controversy. Or be a tyrannical coward and impose only one viewpoint.

It is an either/or. ID is faith-based belief in how we were created. Evolution is the scientific process by which life developed.

I do not want the religion du jour being taught to my child at school. Her religious education is my right, my responsibility to see to (or not, as I see fit!). It is not yours to dictate to me, and I resent anyone who wishes to ram their version of faith down my throat, through my child, while simultaneously watering down real science in the process. It is wrong.

326 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:00:22pm

re: #322 george slivers

No, we love poking holes in other peoples work in our field of study. Not an areas we lack published expertise.

You lack published expertise in evolution, genetics and paleontology.

327 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:00:27pm

re: #320 Occasional Reader

groooaaan!

328 marjoriemoon  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:00:37pm

re: #306 Sharmuta

America protects the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

God bless our founding fathers :)

I see through this argument very plainly. It's an effort to convert non-Christians into Christianity. And unlucky as it may be for them, it ain't gonna happen.

329 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:01:06pm

re: #321 Slumbering Behemoth

If what you say is true, than how did you manage to get a gov't grant for "ID-related research" in such an environment? Did you steal that money?

They fund him, as a way of trying to destroy him. It's all part of the conspiracy, I tellsya.

330 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:02:43pm

re: #310 DeathtotheSwiss

A Tribute to George Slivers:


ID fits what data better? The Bible? The Koran?

And can you name a few Evolutionary Biologists/Paleontologists who, as you say, dropped out of the more rigorous scientific disciplines? Or are you going to continue being completely dishonest and silly?


You need to go to the Discovery Institute Summer School to learn how ID fits scientific discovery far better than a mindless random mutation natural selection ideology.

I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric.

331 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:02:59pm

GOP Debate - Evolution Question

Obviously an ambush question from a Bonkey operative.

/anyway, please note the Republican nominee's enthusiastic answer, not an issue in the upcoming election

332 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:28pm
re: #178 pre-Boomer Marine brat
re: #160 zombie

Ah yes, who could ever forget Joe Mendi, the Scopes Trial chimpanzee!

Yes. I remember reading various articles, from various points of view, and thinking that I simply could NOT imagine what the street scenes must have looked and sounded like.

I think there's newsreel footage around somewhere that shows what it was like.  I seem to remember seeing it somewhere.  I just watched the older (Spencer Tracy/Gene Kelly) version of To Inherit The Wind just the other day, and I'm half-convinced they must have done a good job of depicting it in the film.

}:)     [Haven't seen the Jack Lemmon 1999 version yet, though.]

333 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:29pm

re: #321 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #329 Occasional Reader

I asked this earlier. Does the NIH now just give money to people for research without peer reviewed work to ensure that the NIH isn't just pissing the money away?

334 nyc redneck  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:47pm

re: #281 george slivers

It doesn't have to be an "either/or" Teach both and teach the controversy. Or be a tyrannical coward and impose only one viewpoint.

there is only one valid point of view: evolution.
i.d. does not qualify as science.
it is a procedure of nit picking at an established theory.
it nips at the facts we already have and tries to disprove them.
that is not science.

335 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:48pm

George Slivers: The Sleeper Troll

Registered since: Aug 11, 2007 at 9:44 am

No. of comments posted: 70
No. of links posted: 0
Show Comments Within Last 7 Days

336 yma o hyd  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:03:56pm

re: #322 george slivers

No, we love poking holes in other peoples work in our field of study. Not an areas we lack published expertise.

Aha!
Its not a scientist - its an administrator: its choice of words shows that clearly!

337 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:14pm

re: #302 Killian Bundy

/funny, that's the first time I've heard or read that Creationism is an issue in this election cycle

Not so much in this cycle (at least not in the Presidential race), but I suspect that his support for an ID-friendly bill could hurt the future national ticket viability of the otherwise promsing Bobby Jindal.

338 CyanSnowHawk  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:31pm

re: #318 buzzsawmonkey

The thought police are after him. He's a regular Darwinston Smith.

More like the Dream Police.

339 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:44pm

re: #330 george slivers

You need to go to the Discovery Institute Summer School to learn how ID fits scientific discovery far better than a mindless random mutation natural selection ideology.

I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric.

Hah! Yeah you're a troll but a funny one. Will be sad if you were banned.

340 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:48pm

re: #330 george slivers

I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric [sic].

Classic.

Rotating title? Or too long?

341 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:04:59pm

re: #330 george slivers

enlightening retoric

Yes, indeed.

342 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:05:18pm

re: #340 Occasional Reader


Seconded!

343 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:05:22pm

re: #331 Killian Bundy

Was Ron Paul not there? He should have raised his hand, he's a creationist too.

344 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:05:46pm

re: #330 george slivers

You need to go to the Discovery Institute Summer School to learn how ID fits scientific discovery far better than a mindless random mutation natural selection ideology.

I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric.

I think we just found our proof of where this "scientist" gets his "research" published - The Discovery Institute.

345 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:05:47pm

Does the Discovery Institute have a summer school? And do you think the Navy with pay me to go?

346 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:06:18pm

re: #345 DeathtotheSwiss

will pay me to go...

ahem.

347 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:06:32pm

re: #246 Maximu§

No, somethings cannot be pulled up on a computer...it has to come from the heart, something you sorely lack.

You're a piece of work. Sharmuta has more heart in her pinky finger than you have in your entire body. I'd wager more brains as well.

348 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:06:37pm

re: #333 pingjockey

re: #329 Occasional Reader

I asked this earlier. Does the NIH now just give money to people for research without peer reviewed work to ensure that the NIH isn't just pissing the money away?

If I actually thought for a moment that slivers was doing anything other than telling laugh-out-loud hilarious whoppers through his teeth, I could actually fact-check this. I know quite a lot of people doing research at NIH.

349 6:18  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:06:41pm

Charles I do believe that you are intellectually dishonest.

You spend hours planning, thinking, revising, basically 'designing' your website.

Why oh, why, do you turn around and deny someone the cognitive credibility to say that this universe, indeed, Charles Johnson, et al., was 'intelligently designed'?

Man, you've lost your 'gravitas' with me, not for disagreeing but for so vehemently 'humuddling*' believers in intelligent design.

*hummudle - to humiliate with the objective of muddling the actual facts or arguments.
introduced for the first time here and now by me

350 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:07:06pm

re: #317 Kulhwch
All that I see from you at this point are a series of personal attacks in an attempt to prove to others how superior you believe you are. Such as this phrase

"That's exactly the type of well-thought-out and intellectual response I expected to get from you."

Which you imply that you hold the only Intellectual Position here but avoid commenting on those who challenge your perceived supremacy. You are here not to discuss the subject but to be little others to demonstrate your prose. Throwing out acronyms that you assume everyone knows GIGO. You are behaving just like a Liberal elitists who happens to be an atheist. You have to degrade others intelligence in order to make your self feel good.

You Sir, are just an Asshole.

351 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:07:09pm

re: #345 DeathtotheSwiss

Does the Discovery Institute have a summer school? And do you think the Navy with pay me to go?

I "go" for free. Flushing, however, costs money!

352 ornery elephant  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:07:17pm

Perhaps I'm wrong here but it seems to me that many have missed the real reasons behind the push for Creationism in schools. Much to the dismay of paranoid atheists, I think the crux of it comes from a faith-based recognition that Christianity and Judaism are under attack in America. I don't believe in this fairy tale of some back room full of some sinister evangelicals conspiring to write into a science book that Darwin was demented.

The fact of the matter is many faith-based people have seen the onslaught against religion in our society and some have decided to put up a fight before the fiddler fiddles over a burning rome. Christians have seen any form of worship outside of the basement of a locked church attacked and brought to the courts. We have seen islamists get footbaths put into public colleges, we've seen "Islamic appreciation days" in elementary schools, we've seen the Planned Parenthood agenda put into schools with the Condom Demo Friday, we've seen Islamic Prayer rooms in public community colleges, we've seen madrassas publicly funded, we've seen prayer and references to G_d and observations of religious holidays banned from the public forum.

Isn't it just a possibility that Intelligent Design is an overeaction from some who fear that at some point in time, a Christian or a Jew will need to go underground in this land to worship? Isn't it possible that the separation of Church and State was meant to keep the government from dictating religion...and not the other way around?

The argument that any insertion of religious thought into schools would open the door to any and all religions being brought up there is mute - we're already there. The atheists' mission to banish the worship of G_d in every aspect of society has enabled the ACLU to mandate islamic meals in schools and the other instances detailed above.

The Left says the evangelicals are to fear while they have celebrated nothing but 100% wins in banning any form of religious reference in this land.

Sorry for the long post.

353 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:07:30pm

re: #325 reine.de.tout

It is an either/or. ID is faith-based belief in how we were created. Evolution is the scientific process by which life developed.

I do not want the religion du jour being taught to my child at school. Her religious education is my right, my responsibility to see to (or not, as I see fit!). It is not yours to dictate to me, and I resent anyone who wishes to ram their version of faith down my throat, through my child, while simultaneously watering down real science in the process. It is wrong.

Unfortunately, you have been the victim of a largely successful propoganda campaign by Darwinian fundamentalists who like to keep their strangle hold on the big questions about life. ID does not nor should it promote any religion. It simply argues that a non-random intelligence better explainst the data (diversity of life, biological mechanisms, fine tuning of the universe, etc)

Thanks for the respectful attitude in this debate.

354 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:08:02pm

re: #336 yma o hyd

Aha!
Its not a scientist - its an administrator: its choice of words shows that clearly!

And the wording of this could be another indicator. Sounds like it's someone on the outside looking in.

we love poking holes

355 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:08:11pm

re: #349 6:18

Registered since: Feb 14, 2005 at 4:31 pm

No. of comments posted: 48

356 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:08:56pm

re: #189 Egfrow

That was a comment aimed towards the so called "Blue States" and was stated in that context and not toward you personally. I don't know you and can only judge from what you type here. I personally don't like to make judgments ideas that are held and am always willing to engage in discussion unless hostility ensues.

Well, hell sir, then let's be friends.  I'm always willing to extend my hand to any person who acts rational, educated, and seems to have common sense (which you and I know is actually an oxymoron, common sense isn't common).  I admit, I didn't know what to make of you at first, but I am becoming a bigger fan of your words every second.

}:)     [I've been updinging most of your posts since the 1st, as a matter of fact.]

357 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:09:07pm

re: #349 6:18

hummudle -
introduced for the first time here and now by

Don't hold your breath. When the phone doesn't ring, it's Websters!

358 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:09:22pm

re: #340 Occasional Reader

Classic.

Rotating title? Or too long?

"enlightening retoric" works by itself

359 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:09:24pm

re: #343 Killgore Trout

Was Ron Paul not there? He should have raised his hand, he's a creationist too.

Well, there's no way he evolved, that seems evident.

I lean towards Luap Nor being a self-made man in the literal rather than colloquial meaning.

360 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:10:49pm

re: #169 george slivers

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Was ID mentioned in the proposal?

361 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:11:22pm

re: #357 sattv4u2

hummudle -
introduced for the first time here and now by

Don't hold your breath. When the phone doesn't ring, it's Websters!

Do you think my arrugalant has a chance? Sounds like you have an inside track to the Powers That Be.

362 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:11:30pm

re: #349 6:18

You're completely off-base. The question is not about what anyone believes, but what religious ideas get pushed into science classes.

363 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:11:48pm

re: #352 ornery elephant

Christians have seen any form of worship outside of the basement of a locked church attacked and brought to the courts.

BWAAAHAHAHAHA

You know, it's funny, I can switch on my t.v. practically any hour of the day and see Christian services and/or Christian preaching being broadcast nationwide. I see Presidential candidates have to angle for the seal of approval of Christian churches if they want to have a prayer (pun intended) of winning. And yet if you want to believe you're meeting in secret in the Catacombs to avoid persecution, if that's what makes you happy... well, who am I to deny you that.

364 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:11:59pm

re: #349 6:18

hummudle yourself.

No one here is denying you that ability, or that right. You are the one who's ... "hummudling".

365 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:06pm

re: #349 6:18

Why oh, why, do you turn around and deny someone the cognitive credibility to say that this universe, indeed, Charles Johnson, et al., was 'intelligently designed'?

What the hell are you talking about. He's talking specifically about these particular groups attempts and bullshit half baked arguments at discrediting real science. Intelligent Design is what they have relabeled Creationism. He is not saying anything against anyones personal believe of the subject. That is a HUGE distinction.

366 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:08pm

re: #353 george slivers

ID does not nor should it promote any religion. It simply argues that a non-random intelligence better explainst the data (diversity of life, biological mechanisms, fine tuning of the universe, etc)

If it is a non-random intelligence doing the work, then how did it come into existence in the first place? What mechanisms were used?

367 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:14pm

re: #343 Killgore Trout

Was Ron Paul not there? He should have raised his hand, he's a creationist too.

Maybe he's a Creationist who also believes in evolution. How many times does Charles have to remind you (and everyone else) that the two concepts aren't mutually exclusive.

/in fact, only a very small percentage of "Creationists" (YEC) foolishly believe that the Earth is 6000 years old and that man walked with dinosaurs, please stop painting all Christians with the YEC brush

368 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:43pm

re: #353 george slivers

fine tuning of the universe

That one's always my favorite.

Tell me, what would an "out of tune" universe look like?

369 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:44pm

re: #360 itellu3times

Was ID mentioned in the proposal?


My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statements.

Most reviewers only look at the specific aims anyhow.

370 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:12:51pm

re: #357 sattv4u2

hummudle -
introduced for the first time here and now by

Don't hold your breath. When the phone doesn't ring, it's Websters!

It was certain proud of that word, wasn't it.

/motive

371 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:13:42pm

re: #352 ornery elephant

Religion belongs in the Church. Send them to Sunday School or a private school. These are publicly funded schools from tax payers. My parents did this for me. God = Church, Science =Schools. Very simple.

372 Grandma  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:13:48pm

Not having read all the posts about this subject, nor all the comments, it just occurs to me that there’s some sort of narcissistic arrogance amongst any group who would get all excited on how this Earth was created. What the heck do any of them know, anyhow? And who really cares? Accept that it has been created somehow, and let’s just get on with important stuff.
I think its past time that the Dept. of Education be renamed to the Dept. of Donkey Dust.
When our little kiddies are very young, they are taught how to “tell time”. But put them in front of an analog clock, especially one with a 24-hour measurement, and they’re all confused. Don’t even try one with Roman numerals, they’ll freak! Somehow the dimension of time happened, and we sorry humans can barely even measure it correctly; if we could we wouldn’t have to add a day in February every four years to set it all straight. So who are these “great thinkers" who educate our kiddies on greater concepts, who can’t even understand the dimension of time? And these are the folks who’d educate our children on how all the rest happened?

373 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:15:00pm

re: #360 itellu3times

Was ID mentioned in the proposal?

Of course it was. He made sure that it was prominently featured on page 1 of the proposal, just before dispatching it via magic unicorn courier to NIH headquarters in Bethesda.

374 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:15:24pm

re: #361 OldLineTexan

Do you think my arrugalant has a chance? Sounds like you have an inside track to the Powers That Be.

If by the Powers That Be, you mean my wife, the last time I had an inside track with her was when i said "I DO", since then not so much !

As for "ARRUGALANT". Sounds like arrogant arugula, so perhaps

375 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:15:29pm

re: #353 george slivers

Unfortunately, you have been the victim of a largely successful propoganda campaign by Darwinian fundamentalists who like to keep their strangle hold on the big questions about life. ID does not nor should it promote any religion. It simply argues that a non-random intelligence better explainst the data (diversity of life, biological mechanisms, fine tuning of the universe, etc)

Thanks for the respectful attitude in this debate.

No, I am not unfortunate, and no, I am not the "victim" of anything, and it is arrogant to suggest that I am.

I am a person of faith, whose faith has been attacked from time to time as not being "true Christianity", and I will not tolerate somebody else's ideas being planted into my child's head, in school, by people who believe differently from what I believe, by people who are not certified to teach theology and the tenets of my faith.

It is perfectly reasonable for one to believe that God created all, including the complexities of the world that are explained by science, and also believe in that very science.

376 FrogMarch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:16:02pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

Read the whole thing.

/the real clear and present danger to the American public education system

NEA resolutions cover the waterfront of all sorts of political issues that have nothing to do with improving education for schoolchildren, such as supporting statehood for the District of Columbia, a "single-payer health care plan" (i.e., government run), gun control, ratification of the International Criminal Court Treaty and taking steps "to change activities that contribute to global climate change."

The NEA fiercely opposes any competition for public schools, such as vouchers, tuition tax credits, parental option plans or public support of any kind to nonpublic schools. The NEA strongly opposes designating English as our official language even though such a designation is supported by more than 80% of Americans.

The liberal/leftist NEA doesn't care about poor children in failing inner city schools. They only care about their repulsive political agenda: Socialism.

377 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:16:19pm

re: #369 george slivers

My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statements.

Okay, that's it. Peacekeeper, is that you? You had us going there for a while, buddy.

378 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:17:26pm

re: #366 Basho

If it is a non-random intelligence doing the work, then how did it come into existence in the first place? What mechanisms were used?

That is like asking where the big bang came from. Evolutionists can't explain where the first organism came from. Abiogensis is a joke.

Think about what your saying. You have no problem with a random process but an intelligent process explaining the diversity of life scares you. Why?

379 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:17:51pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

Suppose it is true. What a huge scandal it would be if the NIH was funding creationist research. I'd love to see some of his published studies. It would be an LGF exclusive.

I've never heard of NIH funding creationist research.

However, DARPA every now and then will fund certified nutcases into stuff like zero-point power and the like, IEEE Spectrum even published a credulous story on one back some years ago. Why they do so, I am not privy. Not to mention cold fusion.

Then again, we have astronauts, not to mention presidential candidates, who see aliens.

380 willowone  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:18:39pm

re: #352 ornery elephant
no disrespect meant in this, but that in itself is a valuable reason to keep religion out of our public schools
we are very fortunate to have shuls, churches, and respective religios meeting places where we can discuss our ideas and love for our respective g-ds without fearing a public institution teaching our children or attempting to convert to a specific religious ideal.
i hope this helps, or makes sense.
and if i offended i'm sorry. truly

381 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:19:35pm

re: #362 jaunte

You're completely off-base. The question is not about what anyone believes, but what religious ideas get pushed into science classes.

That is indeed the question. Unfortunately, the argument typically dissolves into insults and degradation lightly frosted with generalizations.

There is only one answer that will work, even though as a Christian and a Southern Baptist, I am no doubt a fundamentalist or even worse, a fundie in many minds.

No religion in public schools is the ONLY WAY to keep madrassahs in check. If your kids need a religious education, use a private school that matches your beliefs. This is why I support vouchers, but would not personally use them. ID has been shown to be a religious topic without a doubt. I already have to guard my kids against the non-religious religion of the left, secular humanism. I do not want to get embroiled in battling everyone else, too.

382 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:19:37pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout

It is perfectly reasonable for one to believe that God created all, including the complexities of the world that are explained by science, and also believe in that very science.

You're not getting it. Surely the god that created the universe, is all-knowing, is all-powerful, and could do anything he pleases could never use evolution to create a diverse ecosystem.

/s

383 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:19:46pm

re: #369 george slivers

My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statements.

Most reviewers only look at the specific aims anyhow.


Clearly, then, grammer and English composition skills are no longer required for PhD candidacy...

384 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:20:25pm

re: #363 Occasional Reader

BWAAAHAHAHAHA

You know, it's funny, I can switch on my t.v. practically any hour of the day and see Christian services and/or Christian preaching being broadcast nationwide. I see Presidential candidates have to angle for the seal of approval of Christian churches if they want to have a prayer (pun intended) of winning. And yet if you want to believe you're meeting in secret in the Catacombs to avoid persecution, if that's what makes you happy... well, who am I to deny you that.

I'm being oppressed!

385 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:20:29pm

re: #379 itellu3times

I see an alien right here in the room. Can I run for President?

386 Charles  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:20:42pm

re: #369 george slivers

My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statements.

Heh.

387 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:20:51pm

re: #368 Occasional Reader

That one's always my favorite.

Tell me, what would an "out of tune" universe look like?

Detroit, perhaps Chicago.

388 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:21:09pm
re: #191 sattv4u2
re: #165 zombie

They are lies. Any [adult in the position of being teacher] must {know they are lies}.

So [every person over the age of consent, every Christian, Jew, Buhddist, Muslim, Taoist, LDS, Hindi, Wingnut that BELEIVE in ID] is {actually KNOWINGLY lying}?

Ah, that Fundamentalist Transitional Lying Slide.  Take one statement, misrepresent it highly (i.e., fucking lie), and then pawn it off as what was said, then crow like a cock when you appear to 'defeat' it.  By the way, the emphasis was added by yours truly.

Wow, guess the agnostics and atheiists are the only ones that can tell the TRUTH about it!

It sure does appear that that might be the case, given how the fundamentalists are lying about it.  Note, too, how good Xians that don't have a problem with evolution, etc., are being just swept under the rug in this reasoning (sic).

}:)     [Tsk, tsk, tsk ... lying for their Lord ... ]

389 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:21:12pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout

No, I am not unfortunate, and no, I am not the "victim" of anything, and it is arrogant to suggest that I am.

I am a person of faith, whose faith has been attacked from time to time as not being "true Christianity", and I will not tolerate somebody else's ideas being planted into my child's head, in school, by people who believe differently from what I believe, by people who are not certified to teach theology and the tenets of my faith.

It is perfectly reasonable for one to believe that God created all, including the complexities of the world that are explained by science, and also believe in that very science.

Then I am afraid I have less respect for you than an athiest who supports evolution. At least the athiest is intellectually honest. Science, as defined by Darwinists, only can understand and explain the world in terms of chance and natural laws. To support "God-directed" evolution is a completely oxymoronic statement.

390 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:21:23pm

re: #378 george slivers

That is like asking where the big bang came from. Evolutionists can't explain where the first organism came from. Abiogensis is a joke.

Think about what your saying. You have no problem with a random process but an intelligent process explaining the diversity of life scares you. Why?

You said it was non-random! How do you know? Did you talk to this intelligent designer? Does ID say anything at all about this intelligent designer?

391 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:21:34pm

re: #378 george slivers

Evolutionists can't explain where the first organism came from

They can't, but you can, right?

Go ahead. We're all ears.

392 Egfrow  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:21:44pm
Man, once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

393 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:22:03pm

re: #376 FrogMarch

The liberal/leftist NEA doesn't care about poor children in failing inner city schools. They only care about their repulsive political agenda: Socialism.

/and, unlike ID/Creationism, their agenda saturates the entire U.S. public school system, hell, they run it

394 MrBlonde21  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:22:04pm

My favorite part about evolution is that you can be an expert in the subject simply by reading wikipedia and nodding your head from time to time saying 'That's makes sense'. It's actually very satisfying.

The truth is that many of the younger die-hard evolutionists aren't thinking for themselves anymore than the aggressive creationists.

395 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:22:09pm

re: #212 zombie

No one here believes that act anymore.

maybe he means "Infectious Disease"? %-)

396 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:22:25pm

re: #383 RightOnTheLeftCoast

Clearly, then, grammer and English composition skills are no longer required for PhD candidacy...

He isn't a PhD.

397 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:22:36pm

re: #374 sattv4u2

If by the Powers That Be, you mean my wife, the last time I had an inside track with her was when i said "I DO", since then not so much !

As for "ARRUGALANT". Sounds like arrogant arugula, so perhaps

Arrugalant was coined in honor of Mr. Arrugala, Barack Hussein Obama.

398 tradewind  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:23:23pm

re: #372 Grandma

I posted this on a seemingly long dead thread, so maybe it would be okay to repeat it here...

I am fine with teaching evolution,, and hate to see stuff like the cave girl frolicking with the T-Rex in a diorama...but..
as a believer, I also imagine that God must get a huge laugh out of watching his children theorize/argue/prove/disprove endlessly the mystery of the science of our ** origins, as if His work, however it was accomplished, can be grokked with certainty by man in this life.
The phrase ' through a glass darkly ' comes to mind. It's fairly arrogant to be so certain we're looking at this thing with klieg lights and 50x magnification.
**and the rest of the creatures, from bamboo to bacteria to bonobos...
399 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:23:36pm

re: #382 Basho

You're not getting it. Surely the god that created the universe, is all-knowing, is all-powerful, and could do anything he pleases could never use evolution to create a diverse ecosystem.

/s

You mean "Surely the god that created teh universe, is all-knowing, is all-powerful, and could do anything he pleases could have no control over any aspect of life since life developed from chance and natural law only (i.e., Darwinism)"

400 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:24:02pm

re: #347 Slumbering Behemoth

{Sleepy B}! thanks...

401 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:24:21pm

re: #389 george slivers

Then I am afraid I have less respect for you than an athiest who supports evolution. At least the athiest is intellectually honest. Science, as defined by Darwinists, only can understand and explain the world in terms of chance and natural laws. To support "God-directed" evolution is a completely oxymoronic statement.

You have crossed a line.

402 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:24:21pm

re: #378 george slivers

That is like asking where the big bang came from. Evolutionists can't explain where the first organism came from. Abiogensis is a joke.

Think about what your saying. You have no problem with a random process but an intelligent process explaining the diversity of life scares you. Why?

I don't claim to know about the beginnings of the universe. With that said: Abiogenesis is "a joke," but a magical, supernatural "intelligence" is somehow great science?

403 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:24:44pm

re: #369 george slivers

My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statements.

Most reviewers only look at the specific aims anyhow.

I saw your other message on "enzyme well-designed for X". That's more anthropomorphism, and is usually overlooked as a linguistic trope.

Me, I sniff out teleologic a mile away, I'd be amused to read your proposals. Perhaps you can do your work and run valid numbers anyway, while amusing yourself with wording and meta-theories. I guess it would help pass the time.

404 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:24:54pm

re: #379 itellu3times

However, DARPA every now and then will fund certified nutcases

Hey I AM NOT A 'NUTCASE'! My teleportation device is this close to reality, I just need a little more duct tape.

405 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:24:56pm

re: #391 Occasional Reader

We're all ears.


Barack? H. Ross? Izzat you?

406 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:25:25pm

re: #396 pre-Boomer Marine brat

He isn't a PhD.

In the sense of Piled Higher and Deeper he is... ;)

407 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:25:42pm
408 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:26:00pm

re: #388 Kulhwch

good Xians

Tsk, tsk, tsk ... lying for their Lord ... ]

Lovely.

/you're a militant atheist, right?

409 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:26:07pm

re: #349 6:18
You haven't been paying attention, have you?

410 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:26:08pm

re: #397 OldLineTexan

Arrugalant was coined in honor of Mr. Arrugala, Barack Hussein Obama.

Ah, Well, I thought you were trying to introduce it to WESTERN Dictionaries!

/s

411 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:26:10pm

re: #222 VegasRick

You and I probably agree on 99% of the issues, just not this one. I think trying to influence my beliefs by stating that "I agree with muslims" is not right. I would die for your right to believe as you will and I think others should at least not mock or ridicule my beliefs.

i pointed to an article where Muslims agree with your beliefs, in support of their own agenda. i never claimed you agreed with them or their beliefs, simply that they find your agenda to support their own. if you don't agree with that support, maybe your agenda needs a review.

also, kindly do not change my comments to fit your argument.

412 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:26:30pm

re: #390 Basho

You said it was non-random! How do you know? Did you talk to this intelligent designer? Does ID say anything at all about this intelligent designer?

Please, explain to us all how you could scientifically test whether life came and developed from a non-random, non-natural mechanism.

Love to hear about it.

413 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:27:02pm

re: #403 itellu3times

Perhaps you can do your work

You're not really buying it that george slivers is getting NIH grants to do epidemiology research, are you?

414 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:27:05pm
415 ornery elephant  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:27:15pm

re: #363 Occasional Reader

I'll give you credit for even knowing about the Catacombs. Oh, and a nice job on the spelling too.

416 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:27:48pm

re: #401 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You have crossed a line.

well, he's certainly hit rock bottom, yet continued to dig.

417 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:28:02pm

re: #404 Occasional Reader

Hey I AM NOT A 'NUTCASE'! My teleportation device is this close to reality, I just need a little more duct tape.

Teleportation is considered a semi-valid research topic, quantum tunneling, Aspect experiments, paired photons. I think it's hooey.

418 OldLineTexan  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:28:13pm

re: #416 redc1c4

well, he's certainly hit rock bottom, yet continued to dig.

Shhh. We're hoping he'll hit oil...

419 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:28:22pm

The depth of ignorance and outright stupidity exhibited by McElroy and the other six is breath-taking.

420 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:28:31pm

re: #330 george slivers


I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric.

I do think that it is up to the "enlightened" party to decide if something has been enlightening, not you.

421 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:28:46pm

re: #388 Kulhwch

wow , great post, and it only took an hour to construct!

Oh , look, Goose Gossage is being inducted into the HOF !

422 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:28:49pm

re: #403 itellu3times

I saw your other message on "enzyme well-designed for X". That's more anthropomorphism, and is usually overlooked as a linguistic trope.

Me, I sniff out teleologic a mile away, I'd be amused to read your proposals. Perhaps you can do your work and run valid numbers anyway, while amusing yourself with wording and meta-theories. I guess it would help pass the time.

Just musing, I wonder if this thing is a lab assistant somewhere. It definitely is trying to puff itself up, and appears to have something of a (slippery) grasp of the lingo.

423 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:28:56pm

re: #197 buzzsawmonkey

Not quite time for the Hollywood Argyles: Alley Oop?

}:)     [Yeah, guess we'd need some transitional fossils first, huh?]

424 baxtrice  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:29:16pm

re: #412 george slivers

What is it about a guy who comes in here and takes on a whole forum unto himself? Are you getting paid for every post you submit? Because I'm a broke college student that could use some money being an arrogant @ss..

425 Basho  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:29:28pm

re: #412 george slivers

Please, explain to us all how you could scientifically test whether life came and developed from a non-random, non-natural mechanism.

Love to hear about it.

That's what you're an expert in, isn't it?

426 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:29:38pm
427 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:30:30pm

re: #424 baxtrice

money being an arrogant @ss..

Theres MONEY in that? All these years, I've been doing that for FREE!

SOMEONE OWES ME !

428 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:31:05pm

re: #417 itellu3times

quantum tunneling

Bah. My own teleportation research begins with the basic proposition that we can't quantum tunnel our way out of this.

429 itellu3times  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:31:16pm

re: #413 Occasional Reader

You're not really buying it that george slivers is getting NIH grants to do epidemiology research, are you?

It wouldn't totally shock me. I don't participate myself, but my brother lives in the grants universe. It's a game people play, and our Mr. Slivers may be involved in one role or another.

430 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:31:23pm

re: #404 Occasional Reader

Hey I AM NOT A 'NUTCASE'! My teleportation device is this close to reality, I just need a little more duct tape.

DAMN! This duck just went zipping through my apartment. Would you PLEASE calibrate your aiming software a little bette ... oh, never mind.

431 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:31:59pm

re: #369 george slivers

My proposal are loaded with teleologic but yet cryptic statementsbullshit.

Most reviewers only look at the specific aims anyhow.

fixed that for ya!

432 baxtrice  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:32:11pm

re: #427 sattv4u2

Me too!

433 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:32:20pm

Here's a good theme song for these sorts of threads.

}:)     [Elvis Costello rocks ... ]

434 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:32:53pm

re: #418 OldLineTexan

Shhh. We're hoping he'll hit oil...

there's certainly something oily about him...

/rim shot %-)

435 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:33:05pm

re: #426 buzzsawmonkey

Athy

Athier

Athiest

Ha -- well done. It's usually a bit persnickety to get after people for spelling. But that's the funneist post I've seen in a while

436 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:34:04pm

re: #426 buzzsawmonkey

Athy

Athier

Athiest

Bless you.

437 rwmofo  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:34:41pm

While the rest of you weren't looking, I just re-elected myself as "President of the Julie Banderas Fan Club."

...and there are so many who hate FNC. I don't get it.

438 rightymouse  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:34:53pm

re: #426 buzzsawmonkey

Athy

Athier

Athiest

Atheist?

439 trendsurfer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:35:14pm

This is what you get when you vote GOP in state and local elections. The candidates are vetted by the local evangelical church. The catchall is "pro-life." heh

440 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:35:18pm

re: #438 rightymouse

That's the joke.

441 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:35:28pm

re: #435 Cognito

Ha -- well done. It's usually a bit persnickety to get after people for spelling. But that's the funneist post I've seen in a while


Yes, pointing out spelling and grammar errors is so clever, especially when you can't refute the content of their argument.

Fine all use the D@mn spell checker.

442 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:35:31pm

re: #430 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DAMN! This duck just went zipping through my apartment. Would you PLEASE calibrate your aiming software a little bette ... oh, never mind.

A duck?! Oh, shit... that started out as my trusty lab assistant. Well, back to the drawing board.

443 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:35:38pm

re: #416 redc1c4

well, he's certainly hit rock bottom, yet continued to dig.

He damn sure crossed a line back there where I'm concerned. Of course, it's not my room, but I reported both his post and my following comment. This place can get pretty hot, but there's no call for personal insults like the one he spat out.

444 rightymouse  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:36:19pm

re: #440 Cognito

That's the joke.

I got it.

445 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:36:39pm

re: #441 george slivers

Yes, pointing out spelling and grammar errors is so clever, especially when you can't refute the content of their argument.

Fine all use the D@mn spell checker.

Whoa, big fella. It was just a clever pun.

446 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:37:41pm

George Silvers-

Sleepy B is still waiting for an answer to the following:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

And, I figured since you're getting grant money and such, you would be able to provide an answer.

447 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:37:43pm

re: #441 george slivers

Yes, pointing out spelling and grammar errors is so clever, especially when you can't refute the content of their argument.

Fine all use the D@mn spell checker.

you might want to use the grammar check also.

(don't bother with the logic check, you'd never get anything to post. %-)

448 Spiny Norman  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:37:55pm

re: #330 george slivers

I can't help you in this hostile forum where I am called a "troll" despite my enlightening retoric (sic).

OK, I'm calling shenanigans. Which one of you guys has a "Froll" login?

449 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:38:46pm

re: #446 Sharmuta

George Silvers-

Sleepy B is still waiting for an answer to the following:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

And, I figured since you're getting grant money and such, you would be able to provide an answer.

*crickets*

450 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:38:48pm

re: #441 george slivers

especially when you can't refute the content of their argument

This reminds me of Polonius' "I assure you, madam, I use no art at all". What content?

451 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:38:50pm

re: #349 6:18

Charles I do believe that you are intellectually dishonest.

You know, it's poor manners to come into a room smoking that stuff and not offering to share it with others. Just sayin'.

Intellectually dishonest? Ha! It's Charles' intellectual honesty that drives him to dig deep into facts rather than jumping onto bandwagons of wild speculation like 'Whitey Tapes' and 'birth certificates'. It is because of LGF's high level of credibility that I keep coming back here.

452 Shay4l  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:38:57pm

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

[Link: www.livescience.com...]

Armored Fish
Protecting our soldiers
417 million to 354 million years ago

I guess this thread is the place to link all this together.

453 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:39:21pm

re: #441 george slivers

Yes, pointing out spelling and grammar errors is so clever, especially when you can't refute the content of their argument.

Fine all use the D@mn spell checker.

ieSpell

/it's free

454 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:39:41pm

re: #227 Egfrow

Well, to be precise, I don't see us fighting agaiinst cultural diversity, in fact, too much the opposite it would seem.

}:)     [THAT was what puzzled me in your response.]

455 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:39:53pm

re: #442 Occasional Reader

A duck?! Oh, shit... that started out as my trusty lab assistant. Well, back to the drawing board.

Just a second. I hear something flailing around out in the shrubbery beyond the hole in the wall.

456 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:39:53pm

re: #449 redc1c4

*crickets*

He's an Entomologist?

457 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:40:15pm

This is very, very depressing.

458 Spiny Norman  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:40:16pm

re: #349 6:18

Charles I do believe that you are intellectually dishonest.

You spend hours planning, thinking, revising, basically 'designing' your website.

Why oh, why, do you turn around and deny someone the cognitive credibility to say that this universe, indeed, Charles Johnson, et al., was 'intelligently designed'?

Man, you've lost your 'gravitas' with me, not for disagreeing but for so vehemently 'humuddling*' believers in intelligent design.

*hummudle - to humiliate with the objective of muddling the actual facts or arguments.
introduced for the first time here and now by me

Enturbulation!

459 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:40:30pm

re: #456 Sharmuta


Another LOTR fan?

460 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:40:36pm
461 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:40:51pm

re: #456 Sharmuta

He's an Entomologist?

Yes. He studies Ents. Treebeard was clearly the product of intelligent design.

462 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:41:10pm

re: #446 Sharmuta

George Silvers-

Sleepy B is still waiting for an answer to the following:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

And, I figured since you're getting grant money and such, you would be able to provide an answer.


Sure no problem.

I predict after 20 years, e-coli raised in a citrate buffer will be able to metabolize citrate in aerobic in addition to anaerobic conditions. Clearly only the insight of a designer would give life the plasticity to make minor adaptations to new environments.

463 right_on_target  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:41:18pm

re: #169 george slivers

No one may be teaching ID becuase of the ACLU and the liberal tyranny and oppresion we suffer in science.

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Huh? Research? What research, if your answer is ALREADY THERE!?
Research is to find answers, to find solutions, to unravel the complex mysteries instead if giving up; saying it's too complex so it must be because of ID. ID is a single edition book. Science [evolution] is on the second or third with untold numbers of editions ahead.

464 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:41:51pm
re: #231 CyanSnowHawk
re: #217 george slivers

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED

BTW, what's your IQ?

You think he's got one?

}:)     [Hell, I'm not even sure he has a pulse.]

465 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:41:54pm

re: #378 george slivers

That is like asking where the big bang came from. Evolutionists can't explain where the first organism came from.

Neither can you, but the difference is that evolution doesn't claim to, but you do.

466 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:42:01pm

The "Ent" comments have apparently reached a state of perfect Ent-tropy; they're now evenly distributed throughout the thread.

467 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:42:09pm

Don't let ignorant, intellectual bigots destroy our pubic schools!

468 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:42:18pm

re: #462 george slivers

I predict after 20 years, e-coli raised in a citrate buffer will be able to metabolize citrate in aerobic in addition to anaerobic conditions.

Predictions are things that haven't happened yet.

469 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:42:25pm

re: #466 Occasional Reader

Who says there's no diversity of thought here?

470 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:42:34pm

re: #353 george slivers


ID does not nor should it promote any religion. It simply argues that a non-random intelligence better explainst the data (diversity of life, biological mechanisms, fine tuning of the universe, etc)

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

471 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:42:37pm
472 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:42:48pm

re: #456 Sharmuta

He's an Entomologist?

Ento?

473 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:43:28pm

Hey, everyone ... up-ding time.
Check it out.

re: #451 Slumbering Behemoth

474 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:43:39pm

re: #462 george slivers

Clearly only the insight of a designer would give life the plasticity to make minor adaptations to new environments.

Oh, sure, you're a scientist, alright.

475 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:44:26pm

re: #472 Cognito

Entomology

I figure we have a number of Entomologists these days at LGF since so many ID proponents only offer *crickets* when questioned.

476 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:44:38pm
477 FrogMarch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:44:56pm

Chris Comer's firing is insanity. Anyone who is threatened to resign or be fired for expressing an opinion is just scary. Larry Summers anyone?
If the ID community wants respect they need to keep their religion in the Theology department.

478 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:45:27pm

re: #462 george slivers

The Tao of Stinky...
Damn kids, it was just last night. Everybody forget?

Fun to watch, but I think my swimming pool is lonely. Time to fry my white-bordering-on blue Nordic skin.

479 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:45:34pm

re: #474 Occasional Reader
He is a lying asshole. The NIH doesn't give out grants willy nilly. He has no peer reviewed, published work.

480 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:45:38pm

The study of refreshing breath mints that cause bizarre behavior is known as "Mentomology".

481 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:45:54pm
482 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:46:11pm

re: #475 Sharmuta

Oh, I know the word. I thought I was missing a joke about Middle Earth.

483 Killian Bundy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:46:18pm

Top Ten Things that Creep Me Out About Obama

I know it is not politically correct to say that Obama “creeps me out.” That’s because immediately after uttering such blasphemy, our friends on the left would put me on the couch and matter of factly inform me that I am suffering from “The White American Disease” and recommend a torturous rehabilitation that would include watching 6 hours a day of “Blaxploitation” films and continuous viewings of Roots in order to inculcate the proper amount of white guilt and outrage directed against white males into my racist psyche.

/he's creepy and he's kookey, mysterious and spooky, he's altogether together ookey . . .

484 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:46:27pm

re: #462 george slivers

Sure no problem.

I predict after 20 years, e-coli raised in a citrate buffer will be able to metabolize citrate in aerobic in addition to anaerobic conditions. Clearly only the insight of a designer would give life the plasticity to make minor adaptations to new environments.

Interesting. Now ID moves to a different track. Evolution is redefined as plasticity. Problem solved.

//

485 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:47:18pm

re: #483 Killian Bundy

...but he's nothing like the Adams family (John or John Quincy).

486 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:47:28pm
487 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:47:40pm

re: #483 Killian Bundy

Top Ten Things that Creep Me Out About Obama


/he's creepy and he's kookey, mysterious and spooky, he's altogether together ookey . . .

Featuring George Soros as "THING" (just a hand behind it all)

488 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:48:04pm

re: #487 sattv4u2

Featuring George Soros as "THING" (just a hand behind it all)

And John Kerry as Lurch...

489 baxtrice  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:48:15pm

re: #487 sattv4u2

Featuring George Soros as "THING" (just a hand behind it all)

LMAO

490 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:48:31pm

re: #488 goddessoftheclassroom

And John Kerry as Lurch...

YOU RANG !

491 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:48:47pm

re: #476 buzzsawmonkey

And here I thought it was 'cause we're all so charming.

I could sure use some charmin right now. This troll is all over my screen.

492 baxtrice  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:49:32pm

re: #490 sattv4u2

YOU RANG !

Who would make a good Uncle Fester?

493 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:49:38pm

RoP (again)...
Two blasts rock Istanbul; deaths reported

Two explosions rocked suburban Istanbul Sunday night, injuring several people, according to journalists and video footage from the scene. The back-to-back blasts happened in Istanbul's Gungoren community at about 10 p.m., a journalist with Turkish news agency DHA told CNN Turk. The journalist, Zafer Karakoc, said he witnessed the explosions.

Police did not immediately report official injury and death tolls, but Turkey's state-run Anadolu Ajansi news agency reported eight fatalities.

Up to 30 people were taken to hospitals, journalist Andrew Finkel told CNN.
advertisement

Video footage from the scene shows several bloodied people being transported into ambulances.

494 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:50:10pm

Merci beaucoup!

"Tish... you spoke French..."

495 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:50:27pm
496 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:50:29pm

re: #492 baxtrice

Who would make a good Uncle Fester?

With a shave and haircut, Bill Richardson (he has the body type and raised eyebrow/ bulgy eyes look)

497 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:50:32pm

Got to go--take care!

498 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:50:38pm

re: #480 Occasional Reader

The study of refreshing breath mints that cause bizarre behavior is known as "Mentomology".

That damned duck was chewing something!

(Thanks for the opportunity for that laugh. My sides are still hurting. I needed it.)

499 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:50:42pm

re: #494 Occasional Reader

Merci beaucoup!

"Tish... you spoke French..."

LOL

500 Annar  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:50:50pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

Read the whole thing.

/the real clear and present danger to the American public education system

A national right to work law would be a start. In addition teacher's unions engaging in political issues not directly related to education should immediately lose their accreditation. But don't hold your breath for any of this to happen since the Dhimmicrat party is beholden to these unions.

501 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:52:09pm

re: #484 Naso Tang

Interesting. Now ID moves to a different track. Evolution is redefined as plasticity. Problem solved.

//

You guys are slow learners. Let me give you another hypothesis.

I predict that chance and natural laws will not be able to spontaneously create life in a manner plausible to early earth.
Evidence? Pseudoscientists haven't even been able to create life in a controlled laboratory setting. Conclusion: There is no evidence that life came about by a spontaneous natural process. The possibility of a supernatural designer can't be ruled out.

502 baxtrice  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:52:23pm

re: #494 Occasional Reader

Took me a minute to get that..+1

503 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:52:32pm

re: #493 Killgore Trout

RoP (again)...
Two blasts rock Istanbul; deaths reported

UH oh!
Damn!
Thanks for the heads-up.

504 Shay4l  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:52:41pm

re: #70 Colonel Panik


...

"Faith and Reason are like the shoes on your feet...you can travel a lot further with both than just one".

This has long been a cornerstone of both Catholic and Anglican doctrine. C.S. Lewis is a fine exemplar of this line of thought.


*sigh* Imagine the world if another major religion would accept this.

505 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:52:48pm

re: #497 goddessoftheclassroom

Got to go--take care!

MWAH!

506 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:53:20pm

re: #501 george slivers

Just curious about your take on retroviral DNA.

507 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:53:59pm
re: #233 Maximu§
re: #151 marjoriemoon

NO religion in school. That's what your clergy is for.

How about all the kids who aren't Christians? Screw them?

No, but maybe they can learn something about Faith...that little thing inside of us Christians that sends us all over the world to feed the poor, build houses and try to make the world a better place.

In return for swelling the ranks of the faithful, persistent tithing, and conformity to the One True View™.  It's always been a growth industry, hasn't it?  And we haven't even touched on the cultural and literal genocide of indigenous cultures.

I saw an old Mexican woman in a Catholic Church one day and on her knee's she went from the back of the chuch to the front reading from the Bible every step of the way...it took her hours and I was awed.

Thats Faith.

That's Sado-Masochism.  To think that that poor woman had to do that to impress her fundamentalist masters is just sick.  And in one of the countries that was divied up by the Catholic Church for who got to loot it centuries ago ...

You like the ACLU? Because your supporting their positions right here and now.

You're.  Not your.  You're.  Contraction of You Are.  It's English, supposedly your native tongue.

So basically people of other faiths can go fuck themselves?  Your stance that people of other religions don't have as much faith as you do is ego-centric, idiotic (of course), and just in line with what I expect of a religious fanatic fundamentalist.  There's nothing separating you from the Islamofascists except the difference in clothing.

}:)     [You must be awfully insecure to have to expound on your faith so much!]

508 baxtrice  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:54:35pm

BBL

509 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:55:04pm

re: #506 Sharmuta

Just curious about your take on retroviral DNA.

God made it.

NEXT!

510 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:55:28pm
511 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:56:20pm

re: #506 Sharmuta
Still haven't got an answer about peer reviewed published work. I thought that if you are a scientist and wanted a Phd you had to have and continue to have peer reviewed published work?

512 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:56:23pm

shhh ,,, I don't want KULHWCH to hear this,,, but why is he reponding to posts 250- 350 numbers and over an hour ago, debating people that LEFT?

513 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:56:24pm

The only scientific research you could really use if ID is the basis of your belief is possibly contacting said creator/designer and asking him why certain aspects of the design are so screwed up.

Here's a few questions in the vein that ID is in fact both correct and scientifically provable:

Is the designer still alive?

Could there be multiple designers?

Does intelligent design imply a life after death?

Does intelligent design imply that the natural instincts and urges we feel are designed and therefore allowable? ie. violence, murder, sex and stealing

514 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:56:57pm

re: #501 george slivers

Let me give you another hypothesis.

I predict that chance and natural laws will not be able to spontaneously create life in a manner plausible to early earth.

George, if you want to defend ID, knock yourself out; but please don't insult our intelligence by continuing to insist you're a scientist.

515 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:57:31pm
re: #237 debutaunt
re: #195 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Nope, he's nowhere NEAR good enough.

Stand-up colonic.

Messy.

}:)     [But, I hazard, a true recreation of his native habitat.]

516 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:58:01pm

re: #513 DeathtotheSwiss
Oh my! That is very good. Bravo. Well done.

517 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:58:37pm

re: #513 DeathtotheSwiss

ie. violence, murder, sex and stealing

"A feller could have a helluva weekend in Vegas with them natural urges."

-Slim Pickens (almost)

518 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:58:39pm

re: #511 pingjockey

Still haven't got an answer about peer reviewed published work. I thought that if you are a scientist and wanted a Phd you had to have and continue to have peer reviewed published work?

Darwinists have created such a tyrannical environment that it isn't safe to reveal my CV and bib.

519 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:59:20pm

re: #501 george slivers

You guys are slow learners. Let me give you another hypothesis.

I predict that chance and natural laws will not be able to spontaneously create life in a manner plausible to early earth.

A prediction is not a hypothesis. Try again.

Evidence? Pseudoscientists haven't even been able to create life in a controlled laboratory setting. Conclusion: There is no evidence that life came about by a spontaneous natural process.

I don't much listen to pseudoscientists, like you, but then again pseudoscientists haven't yet worked out controlled nuclear fusion, so I presume you will come to the same conclusion on that. Suit yourself.


The possibility of a supernatural designer can't be ruled out.

No it can't; not entirely, but it can certainly be pointed out that if humans had the power to do that, they would be able to make much better designs than we have at present. My dentist could educate your designer to a considerable degree, for example.

520 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:59:21pm
521 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:59:27pm

re: #518 george slivers

I still think you're full of sh*t.

522 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 1:59:46pm

re: #239 VegasRick

Excellent entertainment for a Sunday morning. IMNSHO, this beats church all hollow. Thanks.

}:) [But then, my worship is different.]

And I'm sniping at religion by saying that my religion is different, how?

By saying other religions (church) is hollow.

But I go to church too.  So, per your reasoning (sic) I'm sniping at myself?

}:)     [I grant you, it's a good melanoma you've got, but you've been out in the sun too long son.]

523 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:00:49pm

re: #518 george slivers
Bullshit. If and it is a very large if, you are a scientist and you are getting my tax money for research without published, peer reviewed work you are taking money from my kids and are a fraud, charlatan, and rip off artist.

524 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:00:54pm

re: #519 Naso Tang

but then again pseudoscientists haven't yet worked out controlled nuclear fusion, so I presume you will come to the same conclusion on that

QED: The Sun does not exist!

525 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:01:26pm

re: #513 DeathtotheSwiss

The only scientific research you could really use if ID is the basis of your belief is possibly contacting said creator/designer and asking him why certain aspects of the design are so screwed up.

Here's a few questions in the vein that ID is in fact both correct and scientifically provable:

Is the designer still alive?

Could there be multiple designers?

Does intelligent design imply a life after death?

Does intelligent design imply that the natural instincts and urges we feel are designed and therefore allowable? ie. violence, murder, sex and stealing

Those are religious questions. ID is a scientific discipline. We leave those questions for Darwinists and Theologans to debate.

526 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:01:41pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Are you a freshman or a sophomore?

And does he live in his mom's basement?

}:)     [Imagine him scanning his sheet of talking points about that ... ]

527 rightymouse  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:01:49pm

re: #518 george slivers

Yoo-hoo...on the subject of e-coli...is this what you're talking about?

In 2008, Lenski and his collaborators reported on a particularly important adaptation that occurred in one of the twelve populations: the bacteria evolved the ability to utilize citrate as a source of energy. Normally, E. coli cannot transport citrate from outside the cell to the cell interior (where it could be incorporated into the citric acid cycle); the lack of citrate transport is considered a defining characteristic of the species. Around generation 33,127, the experimenters noticed a dramatically expanded population-size in one of the samples; they found that this population could grow on the excess citrate in the growth medium. They found that the ability to use citrate could spontaneously (although rarely) appear in cultures replicated from earlier frozen samples of that population, from before the citrate mutation appeared, but not in the other 11 populations or in samples before generation 20,000. According to the authors of the study, this suggests that the mutation depends on an earlier, perhaps non-adaptive, change—and more generally (following the argument of Stephen Jay Gould) "that historical contingency can have a profound and lasting impact" on the course of evolution.[4]

528 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:01:52pm

Killgore:
BBC on the Istanbul blasts

The first blast occurred in a telephone booth and the second went off as crowds gathered. About 70 people were wounded.

Sounds like a terrorist M.O.

529 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:01:55pm

re: #520 buzzsawmonkey

I bet the bib has a lobster on it.

My favorite comment on this whole thread. Thanks for that.

530 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:02:17pm

re: #525 george slivers
ID is not scientific, it is faith.

531 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:02:28pm

re: #525 george slivers

ID is a scientific discipline.

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth?

532 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:02:30pm

re: #522 Kulhwch

you DO realize you're responding to posts made over an hour ago, to people that left shortly after that time, don't you?

I'm not sure what's wrong with you, but I'm positive it's hard to spell!

}:) (son)

533 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:02:38pm

re: #476 buzzsawmonkey

And here I thought it was 'cause we're all so charming.

That's the icing on the cake, a sweet bonus if you will.

534 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:02:47pm

re: #519 Naso Tang

No it can't; not entirely, but it can certainly be pointed out that if humans had the power to do that, they would be able to make much better designs than we have at present. My dentist could educate your designer to a considerable degree, for example.


Personally, I like my wisdom teeth and kept them in despite the whole vistigal organ nonsenses. The work fine BTW.

535 Hanoch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:03:17pm
teaching the 'weaknesses' of evolutionary science—which means, of course, teaching the 'strengths' of the creationist flavor of the month, 'intelligent design.'

I disagree. Teaching the weaknesses of any proposition is exactly what education is (or should be) about. It trains students in how to think critically (and from what I observe from many of today's students and graduates, it is a skill many are sorely lacking). Presenting only one side of a coin is indoctrination, and it is wrong irrespective of the particular context. I am not suggesting students be taught religion in public schools, but to suggest that they be shielded from the weaknesses in evolutionary theory strikes me as Stalinesque.

536 right_on_target  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:03:18pm

re: #525 george slivers

Those are religious questions. ID is a scientific discipline. We leave those questions for Darwinists and Theologans to debate.

Explain your "research" then.

537 pingjockey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:04:00pm

Well I'll be back later. The youngest wants to play!

538 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:04:25pm

re: #536 right_on_target

Explain your "research" then.

well, lets see. I caught this fly, and I pulled off it's wings. Then I got a magnifying glas, and there was this whole colony of ants ,,,

539 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:04:30pm

re: #531 Sharmuta

You heartless tyrant!

540 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:04:59pm

re: #520 buzzsawmonkey

I bet the bib has a lobster on it.

Nope, Pooh

/or is that ... poo?

541 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:05:22pm

re: #540 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Nope, Pooh

/or is that ... poo?

in the south, it's PO'

542 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:05:31pm

re: #534 george slivers

Personally, I like my wisdom teeth and kept them in despite the whole vistigal organ nonsenses. The work fine BTW.

Poor answer and poor quip.

543 JamesWI  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:05:42pm

re: #518 george slivers

Darwinists have created such a tyrannical environment that it isn't safe to reveal my CV and bib.

But like you claimed earlier, the only scientists who believe in evolution are evolutionary biologists, who you said are people who aren't smart enough to make it in "real" science. So, this one marginalized, less-intelligent group of scientists is somehow imposing their will on every other group of "real/smarter" scientists? How is this possible?

544 mfarmer1  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:06:32pm

I previously thought the "Earth is only 6000 year old" crowd was a small group of harmless weirdos, but it looks as if they've infiltrated many school systems. Seems like all the news from public schools these days is made by the kooky far left or the equally nutty far right.
Who would have thought parents would have to yank their kids out of public schools to protect them from the craziness of the latter?

545 texasjihad  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:06:33pm

Texas
The place where the integrated circuit was invented.
The place where the light emitting diode was invented.
What would we ever be able to do if we were not so weighed down with Bible fables?
Someone really needs to get a life.
If our reputation for Islamaphobia will keep the Muslims out and our reputation for homophobia will keep those out who think they can change the very definition of marriage-- could it be that teaching a balanced view of origins will keep the God-Haters out?
Why don't some of you work on reducing the load of the totally irrelevant crap taught with the tax dollars of Christians in Californica schools.

546 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:07:44pm

Georgie has had his fun and we've had our troll practice runs, but I'm off for a beer until something more challenging comes up.

547 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:08:13pm

re: #543 JamesWI

So, this one marginalized, less-intelligent group of scientists is somehow imposing their will on every other group of "real/smarter" scientists?

You forget the kicker; these moron despots are strong enough to hound george slivers into obscurity should his secret Bat-Identity be revealed, but simultaneously powerless to keep him from getting half-million dollar public funding grants to pursue his [ahem] "research".

548 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:08:13pm

re: #546 Naso Tang

Georgie has had his fun and we've had our troll practice runs, but I'm off for a beer until something more challenging comes up.

more challenging than a beer?

549 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:08:53pm

Searching for "george slivers" in Scirus database returns a null, searching for him in the broadway database reveals an actor in a 1924 play called "whitewashed".

550 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:09:34pm

re: #539 jaunte

That's me!

551 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:09:44pm

re: #512 sattv4u2

shhh ,,, I don't want KULHWCH to hear this,,, but why is he reponding to posts 250- 350 numbers and over an hour ago, debating people that LEFT?

I do that quite a bit myself. It can happen when shows up late to a thread, or when a thread such as this moves at near light speed. I also suspect that I am a slow reader, perhaps even dyslexic. Well, at least my fingers seem dyslexic when I type.

552 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:10:06pm

re: #549 Thanos

Searching for "george slivers" in Scirus database returns a null, searching for him in the broadway database reveals an actor in a 1924 play called "whitewashed".

How apropos.

553 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:10:14pm

re: #550 Sharmuta

High five!

554 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:10:19pm

re: #536 right_on_target

Explain your "research" then.


I lead genome wide association studies to identify loci with alleles that contribute to human disease. Interestingly, most loci have very high minor allelle frequencies for the causitive mutation (or mutation in linkage disequilibrium), but fairly low effect sizes. The common disease common variant hypothesis is consistent with this finding. It is also consistent with a designer behind the polymorphisms, as evolution would weed out the unfit DNA sequences.

How do you like them apples.

555 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:10:31pm

re: #545 texasjihad

Texas
The place where the integrated circuit was invented.
The place where the light emitting diode was invented.
What would we ever be able to do if we were not so weighed down with Bible fables?
Someone really needs to get a life.
If our reputation for Islamaphobia will keep the Muslims out and our reputation for homophobia will keep those out who think they can change the very definition of marriage-- could it be that teaching a balanced view of origins will keep the God-Haters out?
Why don't some of you work on reducing the load of the totally irrelevant crap taught with the tax dollars of Christians in Californica schools.

What?

556 anotherindyfilmguy  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:11:21pm

re: #1 rwmofo

There's always private school ya know.

Wouldn't that be ironic... private schools to escape being taught religious doctrine?
imo the creeping creationism in the public government funded/overseen schools is a direct violation of the separation of church and state. If that makes me an infidel then so be it. Keep the Sunday school teachings in Sunday school...

557 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:11:42pm

re: #547 Occasional Reader

You forget the kicker; these moron despots are strong enough to hound george slivers into obscurity should his secret Bat-Identity be revealed, but simultaneously powerless to keep him from getting half-million dollar public funding grants to pursue his [ahem] "research".

Yes, the marginalized, minority morons in despotic, totalitarian control of the majority. Terrified Georgie huddled helpless in his sliver of space.

/oh the pathos of it!

558 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:11:57pm

George, is mutation a form of evolution? or is it ID?

559 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:12:34pm

re: #549 Thanos

Searching for "george slivers" in Scirus database returns a null, searching for him in the broadway database reveals an actor in a 1924 play called "whitewashed".

That's interesting.

560 rightymouse  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:12:38pm

re: #554 george slivers


I left you a question at #527. Can you answer pretty please?

561 dammad  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:12:39pm

OT - but I got a kick out of this and wanted to share with you. Scroll down a bit for Barack. Obama. Nikto. [Link: www.fivefeetoffury.com...]

562 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:13:19pm
re: #246 Maximu§
re: #225 Sharmuta

re: #217 george slivers

re: #204 Basho

Give us the name and date of one peer-reviewed journal you have been published in so that we may read about your "breakthroughs."

Yes, if we lived in a civil society I would be more than happy to oblige you. Unfortunately, under Darwinian fundamentalism, I would simply be another victim to be EXPELLED.

It's not that you won't, it's that you can't.

No, somethings cannot be pulled up on a computer...it has to come from the heart, something you sorely lack.

Wow, Sharmuta, he completely missed what you were saying!  And then the craven little coward used it to diss you!

};)     [I'm shocked, I tell you, shocked ... ]

563 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:13:40pm

re: #554 george slivers

How do you like them apples.

Where I'm from, we call them "horse apples."

564 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:13:41pm

Malicious sons of dogs, in Turkey.

A small bomb to draw a crowd, then a big one to kill and injure as many as possible. Thirteen dead, so far.

(Always, always run away from an explosion.)

565 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:14:09pm

re: #561 dammad

OT - but I got a kick out of this and wanted to share with you. Scroll down a bit for Barack. Obama. Nikto. [Link: www.fivefeetoffury.com...]

That is funny!

566 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:14:17pm

re: #525 george slivers

Those are religious questions. ID is a scientific discipline. We leave those questions for Darwinists and Theologans to debate.

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

567 right_on_target  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:14:21pm

re: #549 Thanos

Searching for "george slivers" in Scirus database returns a null, searching for him in the broadway database reveals an actor in a 1924 play called "whitewashed".

He's Phil Silvers, Sgt Bilko. Bunko artist [ID research Grant] extraordinarie.

568 Gordon Marock  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:14:34pm

re: #554 george slivers

I lead genome wide association studies to identify loci with alleles that contribute to human disease. Interestingly, most loci have very high minor allelle frequencies for the causitive mutation (or mutation in linkage disequilibrium), but fairly low effect sizes. The common disease common variant hypothesis is consistent with this finding. It is also consistent with a designer behind the polymorphisms, as evolution would weed out the unfit DNA sequences.

How do you like them apples.

Them apples is rotten.

569 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:14:37pm

re: #551 Slumbering Behemoth

I can see that (coming in late/ thread moving fast) when the person you're responding to is still HERE, but otherwise, not so much!

570 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:14:48pm

All this talk of 'testables' is making me wince.

571 Annar  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:15:01pm

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Wow, Christian supremicism on display. If you've ever wondered why Christians still make Jews nervous look no further than your arrogance. Christians do not get special rights under our Constitution. Our country was not set up that way because it's unfair to everybody else. Which version of Christianity are you advocating we force on everybody? Lutheran, Baptist or Catholic?

I think he prefers the inquiring kind as espoused by people like Torquemada.

572 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:15:36pm

re: #556 anotherindyfilmguy

Wouldn't that be ironic... private schools to escape being taught religious doctrine?
imo the creeping creationism in the public government funded/overseen schools is a direct violation of the separation of church and state. If that makes me an infidel then so be it. Keep the Sunday school teachings in Sunday school...

I have The Kid in private, religious school to make sure his education is of the highest standard available academically, and Christ-based religiously.

573 spacejesus  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:15:51pm

re: #526 Kulhwch

And does he live in his mom's basement?

}:)     [Imagine him scanning his sheet of talking points about that ... ]

do all of your posts look like this, cuz' honestly it's overtly homosexual

}:) [or maybe he's just missing a chromosome or something...]

574 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:15:52pm

re: #564 Cognito

Malicious sons of dogs, in Turkey.

A small bomb to draw a crowd, then a big one to kill and injure as many as possible. Thirteen dead, so far.

(Always, always run away from an explosion.)

Aw, fuck.

575 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:17:05pm
re: #258 DeathtotheSwiss
re: #169 george slivers

Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

500K to read the Bible?

I'll do it for half that.  Let's save the government some money.

}:)     [Oh, wait, I already did it.  Can I get a check for that retroactive?]

576 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:17:31pm

re: #554 george slivers

It is also consistent with a designer behind the polymorphisms, as evolution would weed out the unfit DNA sequences.

So you're saying (among other things) 1) evolution doesn't occur AT ALL, and 2) God... oops, I mean, the Designer... is deliberately making us sick.

577 Gordon Marock  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:17:36pm

re: #554 george slivers

I lead genome wide association studies to identify loci with alleles that contribute to human disease. Interestingly, most loci have very high minor allelle frequencies for the causitive mutation (or mutation in linkage disequilibrium), but fairly low effect sizes. The common disease common variant hypothesis is consistent with this finding. It is also consistent with a designer behind the polymorphisms, as evolution would weed out the unfit DNA sequences.

How do you like them apples.

You misspelled Allele and causative, Mr. Super Scientist. What a fraud.

578 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:18:11pm

re: #558 LoFlyer

George, is mutation a form of evolution? or is it ID?

It could be either.

How do you decide which is the mutant and which is the natural allele? We don't all look or think the same now do we. My polymorphisms give me insight into ID that most lack and they encourage reproduction to ensure that ID supporters will be around to hound Darwinists for centuries.

579 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:18:20pm

re: #573 spacejesus

heheheh,,, see my #'s 512 and 532

580 funky chicken  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:18:42pm

Remember that solid Repubican outpost, Kansas? Starting in around 1988 or so (from what I remember) the creationist and abortion fanatic folks began working to take over the GOP in the state. They did quite well, focusing first on the tiniest local volunteer opportunities, then on the smallest local races, and worked diligently toward their goals. They succeeded in getting a majority of their own elected to the KS state school board, and then turned the state into a national laughingstock by enacting anti-evolution into the state science curriculum.

Oh. The citizens of Kansas just elected their first democrat governor in decades...an unappealing, uncharismatic woman named Kathleen Sebelius.

But I'm sure it is just a coincidence, right?

581 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:19:10pm

re: #554 george slivers

I lead genome wide association studies to identify loci with alleles that contribute to human disease. Interestingly, most loci have very high minor allelle frequencies for the causitive mutation (or mutation in linkage disequilibrium), but fairly low effect sizes. The common disease common variant hypothesis is consistent with this finding. It is also consistent with a designer behind the polymorphisms, as evolution would weed out the unfit DNA sequences.

How do you like them apples.


Well then you should be very familiar with the retroviral signatures in the human genome, and their homology with the same sequences in other primate species. How does ID theory explain that?
[ btw the word's "causative", not "causitive"]

What particular diseases are you studying? Leprosy, what?

How does ID explain whale fossils with pelvis' and double pulley ankle bones like gazelles and cows when extant living species don't have those?

I've got more if you can offer reasonable hypothesis to those.

How does

582 Occasional Reader  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:20:17pm

Enjoy playing with our "scientist", gang. Later.

583 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:21:05pm

re: #169 george slivers

No one may be teaching ID becuase of the ACLU and the liberal tyranny and oppresion we suffer in science.

However, ID is being used every day in research. I just got another NIH grant that will likely be funded (score of 124, 8%ile) on ID-related research. Another 500K of tax payer dollars for ID research.

Thank you all for your support.

Crap. Down ding was intended, so that's both a reply and an expletive.

584 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:21:34pm

re: #578 george slivers

It could be either.

How do you decide which is the mutant and which is the natural allele? We don't all look or think the same now do we. My polymorphisms give me insight into ID that most lack and they encourage reproduction to ensure that ID supporters will be around to hound Darwinists for centuries.

George, you are starting to get on my nerves. Mutation is evolution in action. If you are a scientist provide links to your relevant papers research. Good luck!

585 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:21:36pm

re: #582 Occasional Reader

Enjoy playing with our "scientist", gang. Later.

Where do you want what's left of the duck sent?

586 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:21:41pm

re: #554 george slivers

Now I know you're full of sh*t.

587 SpaceJesus  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:21:46pm

re: #579 sattv4u2


I feel kind of bad now after making that post making fun of him since clearly he probably has special needs.

588 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:22:13pm
re: #259 sattv4u2
re: #240 zombie

So you're syaing that every single person who accepts evolution as real is an agnostic or atheist? Fascinating theory!

no, , it was to show the folly of you asserting that everyone that believes in ID LYING. See how absolutes are dangerous?

But that's not what Zombie said.  Zombie said:

re: #165 zombie

They are lies. Any adult in the position of being teacher must know they are lies.

Can you honestly not see the distinction?  You lied and misrepresented what Zombie said in justification for your skewed view.

}:)     [And everyone can see it.]

589 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:22:23pm

re: #554 george slivers

I lead genome wide association studies to identify loci with alleles that contribute to human disease. Interestingly, most loci have very high minor allelle frequencies for the causitive mutation (or mutation in linkage disequilibrium), but fairly low effect sizes. The common disease common variant hypothesis is consistent with this finding. It is also consistent with a designer behind the polymorphisms, as evolution would weed out the unfit DNA sequences.

How do you like them apples.


Oooh! Oooh! Mr. Kotter... can I play with your buzzword generator too?

/what a crock of shit...

590 rightymouse  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:22:24pm

The lab rat still hasn't answered my question about e-coli research already being done by Lenksi. **sob**

/

591 Gordon Marock  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:22:31pm

re: #584 LoFlyer

George, you are starting to get on my nerves. Mutation is evolution in action. If you are a scientist provide links to your relevant papers research. Good luck!

George can't even spell the terms he supposedly works regularly with. Ha!

592 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:22:31pm

re: #587 SpaceJesus

I feel kind of bad now after making that post making fun of him since clearly he probably has special needs.

I'll order the short bus

593 Spiny Norman  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:22:42pm

re: #566 Slumbering Behemoth

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

You keep asking that question knowing full well he has no intention of ever answering it.

Keep hounding him. You have more patience than I.

594 funky chicken  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:23:15pm

re: #554 george slivers

SNort. Typical, trying to bully them with big words.

My master's (passed my quals with honors, but left before finishing the dissertation...glut of PhDs on the market) is in biochem, and my research was in molecular genetics...

No way your research can "show" or "prove" evidence of a designer in DNA sequences.

595 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:23:22pm

re: #584 LoFlyer

George, you are starting to get on my nerves. Mutation is evolution in action. If you are a scientist provide links to your relevant papers research. Good luck!

Chill, my friend. Getting on nerves is what he wants to do here.

596 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:24:33pm

re: #595 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Good point, I am heading to the fridge...

597 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:24:38pm
598 george slivers  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:24:44pm

Well, my fellow lizards, it has truly been fun. I'm sorry that I could not help you understand ID and science better, but revolutionary ideas are always persecuted before they become mainstream.

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

In all your horseplay, I hope you gained a little from the wisdom I offered. If not, maybe some other time.

Take care.

599 Gordon Marock  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:24:51pm

re: #595 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Chill, my friend. Getting on nerves is what he wants to do here.

Right, if he cant spell Allele and causative, then he clearly is a liar and a fraud. No need to get worked up.

600 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:25:49pm

re: #569 sattv4u2

I can see that (coming in late/ thread moving fast) when the person you're responding to is still HERE, but otherwise, not so much!

I don't see a problem with that (whether the "respondee" is here or not). They will likely come back at some point, and sometimes the response adds something to the conversation that others can benefit from.

Harping on late responses to Lizards who are not currently present makes about as much sense as harping on spelling.

601 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:25:52pm

re: #589 RightOnTheLeftCoast

Oooh! Oooh! Mr. Kotter... can I play with your buzzword generator too?

/what a crock of shit...

Somehow, I still keep getting the hunch that he's an hourly-clock-punching lab assistant.

602 Gordon Marock  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:25:54pm

re: #598 george slivers

Well, my fellow lizards, it has truly been fun. I'm sorry that I could not help you understand ID and science better, but revolutionary ideas are always persecuted before they become mainstream.

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

In all your horseplay, I hope you gained a little from the wisdom I offered. If not, maybe some other time.

Take care.

Just like Baghdad Bob. When the heat is on, declare victory and run away.

603 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:25:58pm

I think George is funny- in a pathetic sort of way. And- I don't think he realizes he's doing more to discredit his own position than any of us could hope to accomplish ourselves.

Keep going, George!

604 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:26:21pm
605 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:26:32pm

re: #598 george slivers

Well, my fellow lizards, it has truly been fun. I'm sorry that I could not help you understand ID and science better, but revolutionary ideas are always persecuted before they become mainstream.

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

In all your horseplay, I hope you gained a little from the wisdom I offered. If not, maybe some other time.

Take care.

606 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:26:39pm

re: #598 george slivers

Well, my fellow lizards, it has truly been fun. I'm sorry that I could not help you understand ID and science better, but revolutionary ideas are always persecuted before they become mainstream.

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

In all your horseplay, I hope you gained a little from the wisdom I offered. If not, maybe some other time.

Take care.


yeah you always run when I show up. What disease, what population George? c'mon please hold forth.

607 mfarmer1  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:26:55pm

re: #554 george slivers

I lead genome wide association studies to identify loci with alleles that contribute to human disease. Interestingly, most loci have very high minor allelle frequencies for the causitive mutation (or mutation in linkage disequilibrium), but fairly low effect sizes. The common disease common variant hypothesis is consistent with this finding. It is also consistent with a designer behind the polymorphisms, as evolution would weed out the unfit DNA sequences.

How do you like them apples.

It means you're a smart guy but still haven't been able to fully let go of oooga booga bullshit.

608 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:27:03pm

re: #598 george slivers

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

No matter how may times you tell us this- we're not going to believe you.

609 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:27:14pm
610 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:27:45pm
re: #262 yma o hyd
re: #251 Kulhwch

Hell, just look at how the Islamacists are outbreeding those of other faiths in the countries of Europe, like Steyn pointed out in his book.

}:) [If our current war isn't social evolution in action, I don't know what it is.]

Ahem - 'social evolution' is an expression dangerously close to the mindset of the 'progressives', as described very well in 'Liberal Fascism' ...

You know, sometimes words are just words.

It IS social evolution in that the Islamofascists are attempting to supplant our society, our culture, with theirs.  I suppose I could have used cultural evolution/societal evolution/religious evolution, feel free to substitute one of them if you must.  But I'm not the architect of the evolution, I'm just pointing at the elephant saying, "Wow, elephant."

}:)     [And you'd have to be pretty dim to think I was endorsing it, too!]

611 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:27:53pm

re: #600 Slumbering Behemoth

u seyin theers sumthan rong wif mi spelin ?

612 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:27:55pm

re: #598 george slivers

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.


Bwahahaha! Behold, the Creation Scientist at work!

613 6:18  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:28:11pm

re: #365 Egfrow

so you're saying that if you believe in a Creator you lose all intellectual curiosity? What about Galileo, Copernicus, George Washington Carver?

See, this argument has tried to hummuddle believers so that anyone who logically assumes there must have been a Creator, is labeled as silly or non-scientific.

I don't intend to 'humuddle' Charles, just pointing out his inconsistencies. I agree, I think he's the dude when it comes to everything else he's set out to do.
In my opinion, which I admit is about as important as a grain of sand in the vast ocean of opinions, Charles is not honestly considering how he thinks and works and logically concluding that 'hey, look at me, I didn't create myself, yet my body is a wonder to behold. mmm, let's see, everything seems to fit together. A great system. hmmm... how did that happen? Randomly, by chance? Let me repeat this experiment.
I'll throw in some blood, sweat and tears, mix it up and ... oh, what a disappointment... no little Charles...

see my point? It's not that difficult to have a very simple beginning. That's all anyone is really asking for. To be able to wonder about the obscure and unknown beginning, to have a more 'logical' presupposition. Which to me is, I am therefore, I think. I think, therefore, Someone must have been thinking before me.

Why not have a class called 'beginnings'. Debate, etc without fear of 'humuddlation' or 'humuddlatory' remarks, then go on to the hard sciences. Study, learn, explore, id'ers next to evolvers, side by side...all for the love of science, the passion of learning, the desire to find the cure, the invention, the energy, the wonder of what if?
Yes, we can do it! We can hold hands across the sea of disagreement and discover that ...ummm...discover that we're just plain ol' folks, making the best of this world. Living, loving, caring for each other. [sigh]

Sorry Charles, if you felt humuddled, it wasn't my intent.

614 right_on_target  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:28:19pm

re: #601 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Somehow, I still keep getting the hunch that he's an hourly-clock-punching lab assistant.

Bingo on that one.

615 mfarmer1  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:29:00pm

re: #598 george slivers

Well, my fellow lizards, it has truly been fun. I'm sorry that I could not help you understand ID and science better, but revolutionary ideas are always persecuted before they become mainstream.

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

In all your horseplay, I hope you gained a little from the wisdom I offered. If not, maybe some other time.

Take care.

Wow, what a self righteous egomaniac. Heck, maybe YOU are the creator!

616 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:29:03pm

re: #608 Sharmuta

Based on some of the language, this may be his cheat sheet:
[Link: reformation.edu...]

617 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:29:21pm

re: #609 buzzsawmonkey

I don't think much of his retorts.

This could be the catalyst for something.

618 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:29:47pm

I thinks its safe to say we have been had by a fracking troll. I enjoy arguing with liberal trolls who are trying to make a point. I hate arguing with an idiot who is mis-representing themselves and arguing something they do not believe in. If he comes back, I'll slug him...

619 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:30:40pm

re: #598 george slivers

George, I don't know a test tube from a Bunsen burner. But I do know ineffective communication when I see it.

You've behaved like a jerk here. You might have persuaded someone here -- me, perhaps -- if you had presented your point in a coherent, decent manner. You didn't, so you haven't.

620 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:31:44pm

re: #613 6:18

That's an awful lot of words to say that you think Charles is dishonest because his belief does not match yours. Can you point me to a post where Charles says there is no creator? I don't think so. I think you are the dishonest one trying to muddy the water, and I don't have to make up words to show that.

621 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:31:57pm

No time to slog thru 500+ posts, so I'll ask the question and apologize if anyone has already asked it: are there, in fact, honest-to-goodness weaknesses in the theory of evolution? Or is it ironclad?

I'm sure there is plenty of room for honest, rational, scientific discussion here. I'm no expert on evolution and while I accept it as the best empirical explanation for the origin of species on earth, I suppose that it does have weaknesses or insufficiencies that call for more research or stronger evidence. Is this the case?

Anyone care to jump in?

622 Annar  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:32:01pm

re: #360 itellu3times

Was ID mentioned in the proposal?

If it were ever demonstrated that the Silvers joker or other ID clowns actually got anything from the NIH then the US should outsource medical research while cleaning house. Of course, we all know that this guy came from underneath the rock upon which rests the bottom of the creationist barrel of putrescence.

623 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:32:56pm

re: #618 LoFlyer

"I'm the Queen of England and I'm ridding am magic pony in my cloud castle. The Duke of Whales just stopped by for tea and told me that he saw the universe being creating last Tuesday."
/

624 Gordon Marock  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:33:01pm

re: #613 6:18

so you're saying that if you believe in a Creator you lose all intellectual curiosity? What about Galileo, Copernicus, George Washington Carver?

See, this argument has tried to hummuddle believers so that anyone who logically assumes there must have been a Creator, is labeled as silly or non-scientific.

I don't intend to 'humuddle' Charles, just pointing out his inconsistencies. I agree, I think he's the dude when it comes to everything else he's set out to do.
In my opinion, which I admit is about as important as a grain of sand in the vast ocean of opinions, Charles is not honestly considering how he thinks and works and logically concluding that 'hey, look at me, I didn't create myself, yet my body is a wonder to behold. mmm, let's see, everything seems to fit together. A great system. hmmm... how did that happen? Randomly, by chance? Let me repeat this experiment.
I'll throw in some blood, sweat and tears, mix it up and ... oh, what a disappointment... no little Charles...


see my point? It's not that difficult to have a very simple beginning. That's all anyone is really asking for. To be able to wonder about the obscure and unknown beginning, to have a more 'logical' presupposition. Which to me is, I am therefore, I think. I think, therefore, Someone must have been thinking before me.

Why not have a class called 'beginnings'. Debate, etc without fear of 'humuddlation' or 'humuddlatory' remarks, then go on to the hard sciences. Study, learn, explore, id'ers next to evolvers, side by side...all for the love of science, the passion of learning, the desire to find the cure, the invention, the energy, the wonder of what if?
Yes, we can do it! We can hold hands across the sea of disagreement and discover that ...ummm...discover that we're just plain ol' folks, making the best of this world. Living, loving, caring for each other. [sigh]

Sorry Charles, if you felt humuddled, it wasn't my intent.

All nice thoughts. I feel certain that the majority here believe in a creator. However, IT IS NOT BASED ON SCIENCE. Sorry to humuddle you. I guess.

625 rightymouse  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:33:24pm

re: #601 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Somehow, I still keep getting the hunch that he's an hourly-clock-punching lab assistant.

College student. Maybe sophomore year.

626 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:33:34pm
re: #265 Maximu§
re: #247 Killgore Trout

How about the Jews. Do they need a "little" Jesus in their life too? We live in a society where it is unacceptable to force your religion on other people. What about the Muslims who think you need a little Allah in your life. Do they have the right to force it on you or are you advocating that you have special rights that the rest of us aren't entitled to?

Nice try KT, but your argument leaves out one important fact. Christians are STILL the majority in America and we still call the shots. That may sound cruel, but do I believe America is Christianities last stronghold.

Europe has been conquered, the churches are empty and the Mosques are full and now the secularist are trying to do the same in America. This subject is one battle in an on-going war.

}:)     [And another potential suicide bomber recruiter shows his hand.]

627 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:33:35pm

re: #613 6:18

Excuse me, but it is repeatable. Humans do it every day- it's called sex. And once the sperm and egg combine, there is an evolutionary path the new combined cells embark upon that's really quite fascinating. Perhaps you should do a little more reading on the subject. Then you might learn about "junk DNA" and that human fetuses have gills, etc.

628 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:33:53pm

re: #623 Killgore Trout

"I'm the Queen of England and I'm ridding am magic pony in my cloud castle. The Duke of Whales just stopped by for tea and told me that he saw the universe being creating last Tuesday."
/

I know, Killgore, time for a drink!

629 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:34:07pm
630 MrBlonde21  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:34:21pm

Dear Little Green Footballs,

Please hear me out here. I'm really passionate about the evolutions.

Some of you people just don't understand the important life-changing implications associated with teaching evolution. Think of all the applications evolution is useful for, like, I can't really think of any but I know there are probably some diseases and stuff that evolution can cure, I can just feel it in my ancestral ape-like frame. In fact, I'm so confident that teaching evolution is important that I've decided to read 'On the Orgin of Species' to my cat just so he knows for sure where he came from.

Seriously, this is a super important issue that needs to be addressed until we have all of the answers. We must get mad at our opponents until our voices drown out any and all opposition. So I agree with many of you here, that politics is the best way to go about making changes in science. Obama understands how important change is, and guess what, it works for him so it can work for us, too!

Sincerely,
MrBlonde

631 godfrey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:35:15pm

Who's a Yankees fan?

632 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:35:38pm
633 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:35:43pm

re: #613 6:18

See, this argument has tried to hummuddle believers so that anyone who logically assumes there must have been a Creator, is labeled as silly or non-scientific.

Let's stop right there!

I believe there IS a Deity who WAS the original creator of the universe, and that as part of the universe, the creator set into motion many processes. I don't assume that. I believe it, on faith.

None of my fellow lizards have called me silly or non-scientific, and I will not have you insulting them.

Speak to me personally, before you continue with this simplistic name-calling.

634 mfarmer1  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:36:17pm

re: #630 MrBlonde21

Dear Little Green Footballs,

Please hear me out here. I'm really passionate about the evolutions.

Some of you people just don't understand the important life-changing implications associated with teaching evolution. Think of all the applications evolution is useful for, like, I can't really think of any but I know there are probably some diseases and stuff that evolution can cure, I can just feel it in my ancestral ape-like frame. In fact, I'm so confident that teaching evolution is important that I've decided to read 'On the Orgin of Species' to my cat just so he knows for sure where he came from.

Seriously, this is a super important issue that needs to be addressed until we have all of the answers. We must get mad at our opponents until our voices drown out any and all opposition. So I agree with many of you here, that politics is the best way to go about making changes in science. Obama understands how important change is, and guess what, it works for him so it can work for us, too!

Sincerely,
MrBlonde

Uh, ok, whatever you say.

635 Killgore Trout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:36:28pm

re: #621 NemoParticularis

are there, in fact, honest-to-goodness weaknesses in the theory of evolution? Or is it ironclad?


The overall scheme of how and why evolution happened is pretty much iron clad. There is plenty of debate to be had about the particulars (Which species are related, which ones came first and when, etc). About once per month somebody discovers something that messes with our current knowledge but scientists are always happy about it and the discoverer gets high praise and headlines. There is no suppression of alternate theories. That's fiction.

636 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:37:02pm

re: #630 MrBlonde21


Great, another fracken' troll...

637 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:37:03pm

Several of the ID proponents at DI are actual scientists on paper, however they are mostly medical researchers and / or regular Doctors.

The papers I"ve seen from them either have nothing to do with ID and are standard papers like medical epidemology etc., or they have and ID component, but the paper's not reviewed or weakly reviewed by fellow DI members. Some of them have been published in bizarre foreign journals that specifically take anti-evolution stances, and which support crackpot theories. ( There's a Portugeuse or Spanish one that I can't recall the name for.)

638 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:37:16pm

re: #627 Sharmuta

Every day? Man, am I missing out or what?
/

639 Cognito  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:37:37pm

This 'debate' just sucks.

The people arguing on behalf of one side are practically schizophrenic.

Dull.

640 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:37:41pm
re: #274 Sharmuta
re: #272 Maximu§

Have to go mow the lawn...take care all.

You forgot to exclude me, right?

Aw, I'm sure he didn't forget you.  He was just getting while the getting was good.

}:)     [It was hardly a surprize.]

641 godfrey  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:38:12pm

Anyone buying real estate these days?

642 MrBlonde21  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:38:13pm

You guys, seriously, we must stand united on this issue. Do not ridicule me because I am so passionate about evolution. We all need to understand it so we can accomplish more things and stuff.

643 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:38:22pm
I'm really passionate about the evolutions.


Nominate for rotating title.

644 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:38:42pm

re: #625 rightymouse

College student. Maybe sophomore year.

Yeah. I'd wondered about that scenario too, upthread. However, he sounded way too eager to puff himself up with that pasted-in gaggle of big buzzwords.

645 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:38:57pm

re: #639 Cognito

This 'debate' just sucks.

The people arguing on behalf of one side are practically schizophrenic.

Dull.

I agree Cog! I hate these creationism threads, but its the only game in town. Charles calls the shots around here...

646 rightymouse  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:39:04pm

re: #643 Thanos

Nominate for rotating title.


I'll second that emotion.

647 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:39:10pm

re: #642 MrBlonde21

Are you drunk?

648 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:39:10pm

re: #630 MrBlonde21

Dear Little Green Footballs,

Please hear me out here. I'm really passionate about the evolutions.

Some of you people just don't understand the important life-changing implications associated with teaching evolution. Think of all the applications evolution is useful for, like, I can't really think of any but I know there are probably some diseases and stuff that evolution can cure, I can just feel it in my ancestral ape-like frame. In fact, I'm so confident that teaching evolution is important that I've decided to read 'On the Orgin of Species' to my cat just so he knows for sure where he came from.

Seriously, this is a super important issue that needs to be addressed until we have all of the answers. We must get mad at our opponents until our voices drown out any and all opposition. So I agree with many of you here, that politics is the best way to go about making changes in science. Obama understands how important change is, and guess what, it works for him so it can work for us, too!

Sincerely,
MrBlonde

You are a smug, self-righteous twit.

GAZE.

649 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:39:11pm

Maybe the name is slightly modified..

Paradoxes of Defence by George Silver

.Fencing (Right honorable) in this new fangled age, is like our fashions, every day a change, resembling the chameleon, who alters himself into all colors save white. So fencing changes into all wards save the right. That it is so, experience teaches us, why it is so, I doubt not but your wisdom does conceive. There is nothing permanent that is not true, what can be true that is uncertain? How can that be certain, that stands upon uncertain grounds? The mind of man a greedy hunter after truth, finding the seeming truth but changing, not always one, but always diverse, forsakes the supposed, to find out the assured certainty, and searching everywhere save where it should, meets with all save what it would. Who seeks & finds not, seeks in vain. Who seeks in vain, must if he will find seek again, yet all in vain
650 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:39:16pm

re: #629 buzzsawmonkey

Evolutionary theory currently covers all scientific data relating to the development of life on earth. This twists the panties of people who mistake the Bible for a science textbook.

Then I may conclude it is ironclad? No weaknesses? Okeedokee. *checking out underwear* Nope, undergarments remain untwisted.

Thanks.

651 mossley  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:39:24pm

re: #630 MrBlonde21
If you're trying to be funny, you failed. If you're trying to downplay the importance of this issue, you failed miserably.

652 MandyManners  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:39:39pm

re: #632 buzzsawmonkey

If I may quote Mandy Manners, "Go piss up a rope."

Yes, you may.

653 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:39:48pm

re: #598 george slivers

Well, my fellow lizards, it has truly been fun. I'm sorry that I could not help you understand ID and science better, but revolutionary ideas are always persecuted before they become mainstream.

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

Yea..well...adios. Have a good time grant writing.

...which reminds me, I've got to go crank-up the super-collider and see how the portable fusion generator is coming.

Later.

654 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:40:06pm

re: #642 MrBlonde21

You guys, seriously, we must stand united on this issue. Do not ridicule me because I am so passionate about evolution. We all need to understand it so we can accomplish more things and stuff.

Just go awaaay...

655 funky chicken  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:40:58pm

Well, maybe it was my breath?

656 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:41:38pm
657 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:42:05pm

re: #631 godfrey

Who's a Yankees fan?

Not A-Rods wife, i'm sure !

658 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:42:06pm

George Slivers, what a card! Any relation to Phil?

George old boy, your schtick is starting to wear a bit thin. A hobby for you perhaps?

659 mfarmer1  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:42:16pm

re: #631 godfrey

Who's a Yankees fan?

Not me. However, I did get to sit in Steinbrenner's personal box last Monday night. No joke. That was a once in a lifetime experience for any baseball fan, even if you believe The Yankees to be the Evil Empire and all of that.

BTW, the food was amazing. You know what they say about hotdogs tasting better at the ballpark? They're even better in the owner's box!

660 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:42:52pm

re: #635 Killgore Trout

The overall scheme of how and why evolution happened is pretty much iron clad. There is plenty of debate to be had about the particulars (Which species are related, which ones came first and when, etc). About once per month somebody discovers something that messes with our current knowledge but scientists are always happy about it and the discoverer gets high praise and headlines. There is no suppression of alternate theories. That's fiction.

I remember reading something a while back about "punctuated equilibrium" and the name Gould (sp?). I recall that it caused a stir in the scientific community.

661 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:43:14pm
re: #278 sattv4u2
re: #267 DeathtotheSwiss

"Yes, I think that most of them know they are lying."

He said "most".

and do you beleive that? "MOST", i.e. 50% plus one of ALL people the believe in ID?

Again, words have meaning (well, at least MOST words do)

And has been pointed out to you ad nauseum is the fact that that isn't exactly what he said, and that you're misrepresenting what he said, his words being:

re: #165 zombie

They are lies. Any adult in the position of being teacher must know they are lies.

Now I know you have no gas for your phoney-baloney claim unless you lie about it, but you should really try that buck and wing somewhere else.  It's just inane foot stomping around here.

}:)     [You make-um lie.  You go elsewhere, make others laugh.  You saavy?]

662 van helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:43:54pm

re: #631 godfrey

Who's a Yankees fan?

I was a Yankees fan. I think it was very important for the Union to remain united at that point in history.

Seeing the strangling entity that the federal government has evolved into, I'm not so sure anymore.

663 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:45:02pm

re: #662 van helsing

I was a Yankees fan. I think it was very important for the Union to remain united at that point in history. Seeing the strangling entity that the federal government has evolved into, I'm not so sure anymore.

You are very wise for one who has yet to live a single lifetime, Van Helsing.

664 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:45:22pm

re: #282 buzzsawmonkey

Not even all bartenders believe in ID.

Some believe in fake ID, though.

}:D     [Who'd want to fake out a Behe paper?  Why, Behe, of course!]

665 Gambini  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:46:01pm

You're committing a big mistake by alienating religious and spiritual people, who after all, constitute majority of conservatives.
If you carry on with your anti-religion jihad, you'll end up with the gate-of-vienna white-nationalist guys as sole allies.

666 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:47:08pm

re: #593 Spiny Norman


You keep asking that question knowing full well he has no intention of ever answering it.

Keep hounding him. You have more patience than I.

It's a dirty job...

667 van helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:48:28pm

It's bad when it's too damn hot to float in the pool.

668 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:48:38pm

re: #647 Sharmuta

Are you drunk?

Maybe it's just a blond joke gone awry.

669 MrBlonde21  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:49:06pm

re: #651 mossley

If you're trying to be funny, you failed. If you're trying to downplay the importance of this issue, you failed miserably.

First evolution, then gravity. Do you like the idea of flying away into space? I didn't think so. Just think of the implications.

That's all.

670 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:49:17pm

re: #667 van helsing

It's bad when it's too damn hot to float in the pool.

take a deep deep breath, and "float" on the bottom !

671 mfarmer1  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:49:20pm

re: #665 Gambini

You're committing a big mistake by alienating religious and spiritual people, who after all, constitute majority of conservatives.
If you carry on with your anti-religion jihad, you'll end up with the gate-of-vienna white-nationalist guys as sole allies.

I believe Charles may only alienate those morons who believe the Grand Canyon was carved out in three days from a single rainstorm and flood. If that is representative of a large majority of conservatives, then well, we're all screwed anyway.

672 funky chicken  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:49:53pm

re: #660 NemoParticularis

I remember reading something a while back about "punctuated equilibrium" and the name Gould (sp?). I recall that it caused a stir in the scientific community.

Yeah, they all stirred their drinks while laughing uproariously.

Nice try.

673 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:49:55pm

re: #665 Gambini

It's not about attacking religion and you know that. You are the one attacking Christian faith by stating that they must support Discovery Institute or they can't be true Christians. You are the divisive one.

674 van helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:51:20pm

re: #670 sattv4u2

I was giving serious thought to dragging out my weight belt and snorkel. Can't sink to the bottom without weights. Fat and all...

675 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:51:25pm

re: #672 funky chicken

Yeah, they all stirred their drinks while laughing uproariously. Nice try.

Nice try at...what?

676 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:52:21pm

re: #669 MrBlonde21

First evolution, then gravity. Do you like the idea of flying away into space? I didn't think so. Just think of the implications.

That's all.


we can only hope !

677 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:52:31pm

Gambini, that's a relatively new blog... where's you old one?

678 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:52:32pm

re: #665 Gambini

This comment is so ignorant on a couple of points, I don't even know where to start.

I guess I'll start with the point that there is no "anti-religious jihad" going on here. Most of us are both believers in God and accept evolution.

Second- there are a number of creationist groups that side with nationalist groups or are on-in-the-same.

Third- we've already dismissed gov and their ilk, and we won't accept them back.

679 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:53:06pm

Punctuated equilibrium just means the observation of different rates of evolution (some periods of stasis, followed by geological-time-scale-rapid adaptation to changed environments).

680 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:53:10pm

re: #674 van helsing

I was giving serious thought to dragging out my weight belt and snorkel. Can't sink to the bottom without weights. Fat and all...

hey ,, at least you HAVE a pool, you pooletist!

681 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:53:27pm

re: #678 Sharmuta

Pimf- one-in-the-same

682 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:53:41pm

re: #665 Gambini

You're committing a big mistake by alienating religious and spiritual people, who after all, constitute majority of conservatives.
If you carry on with your anti-religion jihad, you'll end up with the gate-of-vienna white-nationalist guys as sole allies.

Where have I heard this kind of argument before? No, wait, don't tell me...
/your irony is ridiculous and unintentional, but revealing none the less

683 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:53:47pm

I've come to the conclusion, reading george slivers' posts, that he is not for real but is just here for the sport of baiting evolution supporters. Let's not feed the troll anymore.

684 funky chicken  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:54:09pm

re: #665 Gambini

See what allowing the theocons to become the face of the GOP does for the party in my #580.

685 Kulhwch  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:54:16pm

re: #300 willowone

i'm very appreciative of the combined knowledge on this topic by room members, when it first appeared as a topic i was confused why, and the rangling between members.
anyway my gratefulness came slowly i was pained to see the anger and frustration by both sides defending their argument. truth must win out, i don't feel very happy with the idea of my children being taught false ideas in any subject.
killgore responses were excellant and helped clarify a great reason for me. but the most important to me is that we don't allow our children to be taught ideas that won't hold up if that becomes their field of choice, what would be then have been the use of education .
education should remain at all times provable fact.
as a religious person i don't feel fearful that my children will fall out of love with G-d or be weakened by truth.
in fact i believe this gives more energy to study G-d harder, and that is exciting in itself.

To quote (and somewhat paraphrase) Tennesse Ernie Ford, well bless your pea-picking self!  I totally agree.  Science is not the enemy of faith.  Those saying it is aren't informed, I believe.  There are, after all, a fair number of scientists who are also among the faithful.

}:)     [And with that, everyone, I'm off to enjoy a Sunday afternoon, which also beats church all hollow!  Sorry, VR, you'll have to court someone else.  Stiff upper lip and all that, eh wot?]

686 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:54:38pm

re: #679 jaunte

Punctuated equilibrium just means the observation of different rates of evolution (some periods of stasis, followed by geological-time-scale-rapid adaptation to changed environments).

Then why the uproarious laughter? Is there a problem with this vis-a-vis the general theory itself?

687 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:55:01pm

re: #686 NemoParticularis

What laughter?

688 van helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:55:43pm

re: #680 sattv4u2

hey ,, at least you HAVE a pool, you pooletist!

LOL! Thanks for that, I needed a chuckle.

I'm an unrepentant pooletist!
Waiting for the Thought Police...

689 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:55:49pm

re: #687 jaunte

What laughter?


See #672.

690 The Shadow Do  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:55:55pm

re: #683 Tigger2005

I've come to the conclusion, reading george slivers' posts, that he is not for real but is just here for the sport of baiting evolution supporters. Let's not feed the troll anymore.

Yup, transparently ridiculous that one is.

691 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:56:06pm

re: #598 george slivers

Well, my fellow lizards, it has truly been fun. I'm sorry that I could not help you understand ID and science better, but revolutionary ideas are always persecuted before they become mainstream.

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

In all your horseplay, I hope you gained a little from the wisdom I offered. If not, maybe some other time.

Take care.

i printed out all your posts and scattered them around the rose bushes out back...

/saved a trip to the garden center for a load of steer manure %-)

692 reno911  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:56:15pm

I think we all can agree that there is an animal behavior called "instinct". I also think we all can agree that certain animal instincts can be bred in and out. I certainly have observed the breeding of animal instinct while raising Australian Cattle Dogs.

I wonder how many of us believe in human instinct? If you believe in human instinct, do you also believe that human instincts can "evolve" (change over time)?

The reason I ask, is because, when watching the news, it sometimes seems as if certain instincts are not present in some people or groups of people. Take the "mother" instinct for example. There is a case here in Florida of a young mother accused of being involved in her daughters disappearance. This woman is clearly missing the mother instinct.

I wonder if 35 years of Abortion-on-Demand is contributing to the "breeding out" of the mother instinct in women in western society? What about a "crime" or "work ethic" instinct?

What is the impact of these observations (apparent human instinct evolution ) on Darwin's Theory of Evolution? If any?

Hopefully I will not be called a nazi (I am unsure of the PC position) for wondering out loud about the link between Darwin's Theory of Evolution and human instinct.

693 loflyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:56:48pm

re: #683 Tigger2005

I've come to the conclusion, reading george slivers' posts, that he is not for real but is just here for the sport of baiting evolution supporters. Let's not feed the troll anymore.

So is mrbonde21. I am not playing the game...

694 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:57:37pm

re: #689 NemoParticularis

If I had to interpret I'd say that the scientific community though Gould was exaggerating the dichotomy between punctuated equilibrium and gradualism, to sell some more books with the controversy.

695 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:57:49pm

re: #667 van helsing

It's bad when it's too damn hot to float in the pool.

my pool is currently 98*-100*... not refreshing during the day, due to the solar cover, but at least it's not losing an inch or so of water a day either. that gets *real* expensive, real quick, and we're in (another) drought.

/trade offs

696 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:57:52pm

thought, sorry.

697 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:58:04pm

Gambini, I remember how critical you were of the "well we allied with Stalin " argument, but now you are making it because your ox seems gored.

698 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:58:27pm

re: #688 van helsing

LOL! Thanks for that, I needed a chuckle.

I'm an unrepentant pooletist!
Waiting for the Thought Police...

When I moved from Boston to Atlanta about 10 years ago, the decision came down to 2 houses, one with a pool and one without, We opted for the one without because overall we liked the house itself somewhat better. Being from Boston, where we have 10 months of winter and 2 months of bad skiing, we figured how much would we even use the pool!@!

WRONG !

699 ornery elephant  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:59:07pm

re: #683 Tigger2005

without him Tigger , the thread would have been 125 posts instead of 683

700 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 2:59:14pm

re: #694 jaunte

If I had to interpret I'd say that the scientific community though Gould was exaggerating the dichotomy between punctuated equilibrium and gradualism, to sell some more books with the controversy.

Do you believe tere was any merit to his claims? Can evolutionary change "speed up" or "slow down"?

701 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:00:24pm

Also Gambini nevermind my question on your old blog, I forgot how crappy eblogger is about showing the full archives in the sidebar.

702 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:00:27pm

re: #700 NemoParticularis
I would say yes to both.

703 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:01:14pm

re: #683 Tigger2005

I've come to the conclusion, reading george slivers' posts, that he is not for real but is just here for the sport of baiting evolution supporters. Let's not feed the troll anymore.

I vote for replying to it's every post with nothing but this:

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does ID put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the DI? On what grounds can the DI claim that ID is a scientific theory?

(I know this query was first posed by myself, but I was only able to form it as the result of all the great efforts by Lizards here to educate myself and others on this issue)

704 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:01:36pm

re: #692 reno911

Can't spend time on it, but just a thought -- the mother "instinct" is at least partly learned, or acquired. I get what you're wondering about. I think Occam's Razor would indicate a lack of teaching of the young.

VERRRY-long-term? Heck. I haven't a clue.

705 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:01:45pm

re: #683 Tigger2005

I've come to the conclusion, reading george slivers' posts, that he is not for real but is just here for the sport of baiting evolution supporters. Let's not feed the troll anymore.

We should charge him for the argument.

706 van helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:01:49pm

re: #698 sattv4u2

Even having lived in Phoenix for 30 years it wasn't the determining factor for me in the house purchase.

I do like it, though. However as redc1c4 pointed out, losing 1 to inches of water a day does get pricey.

707 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:02:54pm

re: #702 jaunte

I would say yes to both.

My first thought is that the environmental factors causing evolutionary change to accelerate would have to be pretty severe. Would an excess of radiation be factor? Perhaps powerfully mutagenic viruses? I'm going somewhere with this and trust me, it's neither ID nor creationism.

708 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:03:37pm

re: #707 NemoParticularis
Simply having a lot of available niches would do it.

709 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:04:31pm

re: #706 van helsing

Even having lived in Phoenix for 30 years it wasn't the determining factor for me in the house purchase.

I do like it, though. However as redc1c4 pointed out, losing 1 to inches of water a day does get pricey.

it evaporates at that rate daily? wow! Would a pool cover help any?

(BTW ,, HEY you GLOBAL WARMING NAZIS,,, ,, thats the SUN doing that ,, not my SUV)

710 sattv4u2  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:08:07pm

re: #707 NemoParticularis

My first thought is that the environmental factors causing evolutionary change to accelerate would have to be pretty severe. Would an excess of radiation be factor? Perhaps powerfully mutagenic viruses? I'm going somewhere with this and trust me, it's neither ID nor creationism.

You need look no further than a bear hibernating. What is their active "normal" heart rate. What is it during months of hibernation. Within the same animal, within the same year, there is a DRASTIC "speed up" or "slow down"?

711 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:10:03pm

re: #667 van helsing

It's bad when it's too damn hot to float in the pool.

Our swimming pool is a cool crisp 78 F. Its in a shaded area and the leaves that fall from the trees above it are a hassle, but in the end I like a cold pool. Always refreshing to take a dip and have to get used to the water.

712 Van Helsing  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:10:04pm

re: #709 sattv4u2

A cover would slow it down, but then it gets warmer.

Poolbal warming! Is too your SUV! :-)

713 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:10:09pm

Well Lizards I'd love to stay and chat, but I have a room full of Swedish flight attendants begging to pleasure me while I eat caviar and sip champagne, so I'll see y'all later.

//See, lying on the interwebs is fun and easy. Thanks Georgie.

714 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:12:54pm

re: #665 Gambini

You're committing a big mistake by alienating religious and spiritual people, who after all, constitute majority of conservatives.
If you carry on with your anti-religion jihad, you'll end up with the gate-of-vienna white-nationalist guys as sole allies.

There's no "anti-religion jihad" going on here. It's an "anti-idiotarian" jihad.

As has been mentioned over and over, belief in God does not preclude acceptance of evolution, and acceptance of evolution does not preclude belief in God. In other words, one can be religious and spiritual (and moral and conservative and patriotic, even) while accepting the overwhelming evidence for evolution. Pretending this evidence doesn't exist or claiming that there is just as much or more evidence for creationism or I.D. is idiotic, as is trying to subvert the Constitution by teaching religious doctrine disguised as science in public schools.

Believing one group of people is superior to another because of skin color is idiotic too. LGF is anti-idiotarian. Charles has already cut off all ties and burned all bridges with the white racist types.

I suppose there are times one has to take people one considers idiots as allies. I'm sure most people here at LGF would take Christian creationists and IDers as allies against Islamic jihad--in fact, I don't think we should even have to worry that by offending Christian creationists and IDers we risk losing them as allies against jihad. Unfortunately, the Christian creationists and IDers themselves seem perfectly willing to ally themselves with the "soft jihad" in the name of promoting their beliefs.

One must select one's idiotarian allies with care.

715 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:12:58pm

re: #710 sattv4u2

You need look no further than a bear hibernating. What is their active "normal" heart rate. What is it during months of hibernation. Within the same animal, within the same year, there is a DRASTIC "speed up" or "slow down"?

I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate comparison.

716 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:15:24pm

re: #714 Tigger2005

Indeed- kind of hard for creationist groups like IRC & DI to be anti-jihad when they're already in bed with them. And this begs the question- how do you lose an ally you never really had?

717 Gambini  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:15:25pm

re: #671 mfarmer1

I believe Charles may only alienate those morons who believe the Grand Canyon was carved out in three days from a single rainstorm and flood. If that is representative of a large majority of conservatives, then well, we're all screwed anyway.

It's smarter to believe that life on this earth is the fruit of random and aimeless mutations. Smart people believe that a monkey hitting keys randomly on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will surely type a shakespeare's chef d'oeuvre.

718 Gambini  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:18:09pm

re: #716 Sharmuta

Indeed- kind of hard for creationist groups like IRC & DI to be anti-jihad when they're already in bed with them. And this begs the question- how do you lose an ally you never really had?

One must be totally dishonest or stupid to not distinguish between people who are interested in the philosophical and spiritual meaning of our existence, and those who are mere follower of a man who declared his words to be the undeniable truth.

719 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:18:39pm

re: #717 Gambini

It's smarter to believe that life on this earth is the fruit of random and aimeless mutations. Smart people believe that a monkey hitting keys randomly on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will surely type a shakespeare's chef d'oeuvre.

Thanks to the Internet experiment, smart people now know this is not true. SCIENCE!

By the way;

Mutation is random.
Selection is not random.

Why do you have such a problem with it anyway? You exist don't you? That means you're the latest in a long line of winners. You should be proud!

720 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:19:27pm

re: #717 Gambini

"random and aimeless mutations" is not correct.

721 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:20:25pm

re: #717 Gambini

Smart people believe that a monkey hitting keys randomly on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will surely type a shakespeare's chef d'oeuvre.

Well technically yes. Infinity is a really long time. Even a billion years is but a grain of sand on a beach. Not even that. But the Earth isn't infinitely old.

722 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:20:48pm

re: #720 jaunte

"random and aimeless mutations" is not correct.

Mutation is random.
Selection is not random.

Please write that 1,000 times on the blackboard, Gambini, and perhaps it will sink in.

723 capital L  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:21:13pm

Well I'm way late on this but I was scanning through the comments and I just couldn't let this slip by:

An insight from "Grandma", #372: "Somehow the dimension of time happened, and we sorry humans can barely even measure it correctly; if we could we wouldn’t have to add a day in February every four years to set it all straight."

You do realize this is because a year doesn't divide up all nice and neatly right? Or do you honestly believe that we have a permanent inability to measure and/or divide up a year? And could you really have relied upon this misconception as some sort of "insightful" example of the folly of science?

Now I'm hummuddled, and I don't have any idea what that even means!

724 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:21:25pm

re: #722 Tigger2005

You are correct!

725 mossley  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:23:12pm

re: #598 george slivers
In case you haven't noticed, you aren't fooling anyone with either your ID BS or your pretensions of being some great researcher. All it does it make you look silly. It's hard to make people think you are intelligent when every "point" you've made has been shot down in flames.

726 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:23:24pm

re: #718 Gambini

Perhaps you have not been paying attention- but islamic creationists are indeed in bed with American creationists. These are not the allies you seem to think they are, just as european ethnic nationalists were not the allies some thought (and still think) they are.

727 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:23:58pm

re: #722 Tigger2005

Mutation is random.
Selection is not random.

Please write that 1,000 times on the blackboard, Gambini, and perhaps it will sink in.

And something else...I've heard it proposed that mutation is not necessarily always random, either. Mutation itself may have evolved to become less random and be more likely to produce beneficial mutations in given environmental conditions.

728 hazzyday  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:24:16pm

I think the discussion requires people to reexamine their definitions.

Can both sides agree that?

A believer in Intelligent Design as portrayed by the Discovery Institute is also a believer in "Young Earth Creationism"? And that the main accepted thrust of ID is to compete with evolution in biology textbooks in public schools?

And that the term creationism when used to designate "Young Earth Creationist" in any type of argument does a very large disservice to the majority of the people with some variation of the view that God Created the Universe and the Earth. Using the word "creationism" to broadly paint the ID argument in court, is essentially just saying "All religions are poorly informed and ignorant" That is not the case. So we can see that the anti-creationist arguments being used currently have as tenous a base or lack of substance as the YEC arguments do.

Or is creationism only "young earth creationism"

I also think the separation of church and state argument here is muddled and not as intended. If a school advocates a religious belief as the state belief then it does error. If it just advocates a reasoned look at the variety of beliefs of creation some of which are science only, then it does not error. Let each choose their own God or none at all.

Science is not separate from God. But asking Science to operate mainly with a sole religious view on nature clouds the nature of reasoning. I could then say that my faith in God will allow me to violate the laws of statistics and the roll will go in my favor because I am God's favored. This is what the religous do when given uncontrolled influence in textbooks. It is because they are sinners. There is plenty of opportunity for the religious to understand science through their church.

Public education without the benefit of a spiritual moral background does a disservice to the greater society. It does give leave and a vaccuum for materialistic atheism to be over represented to the tax paying public. Something which they do not want.

Politically public education should include discussion of the Bible as a major mover of western civilization. And the Koran as a major problem in western civilization. Same God...or so we are told.

729 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:24:17pm

re: #723 capital L

As a long time fan of poster Grandma I know she is one of the wisest folks you'll find here and one of the best writers as well. I think you missed her point.

730 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:24:26pm

re: #720 jaunte

"random and aimeless mutations" is not correct.

Which raises other questions in my mind. If the mutations and selection are not random, then what governs them?

731 Gambini  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:25:53pm

re: #714 Tigger2005

There's no "anti-religion jihad" going on here. It's an "anti-idiotarian" jihad.

As has been mentioned over and over, belief in God does not preclude acceptance of evolution, and acceptance of evolution does not preclude belief in God. In other words, one can be religious and spiritual (and moral and conservative and patriotic, even) while accepting the overwhelming evidence for evolution. Pretending this evidence doesn't exist or claiming that there is just as much or more evidence for creationism or I.D. is idiotic, as is trying to subvert the Constitution by teaching religious doctrine disguised as science in public schools.

Believing one group of people is superior to another because of skin color is idiotic too. LGF is anti-idiotarian. Charles has already cut off all ties and burned all bridges with the white racist types.

I suppose there are times one has to take people one considers idiots as allies. I'm sure most people here at LGF would take Christian creationists and IDers as allies against Islamic jihad--in fact, I don't think we should even have to worry that by offending Christian creationists and IDers we risk losing them as allies against jihad. Unfortunately, the Christian creationists and IDers themselves seem perfectly willing to ally themselves with the "soft jihad" in the name of promoting their beliefs.

One must select one's idiotarian allies with care.

Instead of calling them stupids and backwards, convince them, give them proofs, and not just nice drawings of how a sole and lonely bacteria can produce life as we have on earth, by merely mutating randomly.

btw, don't get me wrong, I am not talking here about the natural adaptability and evolution of organisms. I am just talking about the "origin of life" theiry of the radical organized atheists.

732 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:26:00pm

re: #730 NemoParticularis

Tigger managed to say accurately what I couldn't:
"Mutation is random.
Selection is not random."

733 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:26:20pm

re: #730 NemoParticularis

Which raises other questions in my mind. If the mutations and selection are not random, then what governs them?

Oops. I reread and saw that mutation is, in fact, random. Selection is not. The question still remains: what governs selection?

734 hazzyday  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:26:49pm

re: #717 Gambini

It's smarter to believe that life on this earth is the fruit of random and aimeless mutations. Smart people believe that a monkey hitting keys randomly on a typewriter keyboard for an infinite amount of time will surely type a shakespeare's chef d'oeuvre.

It's way smarter to believe that the concepts of random and aimlessness results from a finite view of the infinite. Acquiring a broader more tolerant viewpoint eventually dissolves a lot of the randomness of life.

735 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:27:05pm

re: #733 NemoParticularis

Adaptation to an environment.

736 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:27:34pm

re: #731 Gambini

Instead of calling them stupids and backwards...

You mean like you just did to me?

737 Gambini  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:27:44pm

re: #677 Thanos

Gambini, that's a relatively new blog... where's you old one?

what blog are you talking about?

738 J.S.  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:29:05pm

re: #694 jaunte

and sometimes the problem with punctuated equilibrium is the claim (usually made by Gould detractors and a claim which is false) is that it's akin to saltationism...It took a long time to banish saltationism from evolutionary biology. (wiki article here.)

739 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:30:56pm

re: #735 jaunte

Adaptation to an environment.

I don't mean to sound contentious, but how is that NOT random? If a mutation occurs in an organism that is somhow beneficial and thereefore is passed on to a new generation, we cannot be sure that the survival of all members of that generation is guaranteed - some will thrive, some will die. Nor can we be certain that all of the survivors will successfully reproduce - some will, some won't. Can we not say that the survival of certain members of the new generation and any subsequent reproduction are, in fact, random? I amtruly confused at this.

740 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:33:06pm

re: #733 NemoParticularis

Oops. I reread and saw that mutation is, in fact, random. Selection is not. The question still remains: what governs selection?

Survival of the fittest?

741 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:33:49pm

re: #738 J.S.

and sometimes the problem with punctuated equilibrium is the claim (usually made by Gould detractors and a claim which is false) is that it's akin to saltationism...It took a long time to banish saltationism from evolutionary biology. (wiki article here.)

So I guess profound changes in a short time - as short as a single generation - are out of the question. No such thing as "hopeful monsters?"

742 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:34:02pm

re: #731 Gambini

I am just talking about the "origin of life" theiry of the radical organized atheists.

There are quite a few Origin of Life theories out there. All of them require a leap of faith at some point.

743 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:34:26pm

re: #731 Gambini

the "origin of life" theiry of the radical organized atheists

You want US to explain THAT? Heck, I want no part of it.

And just how did you come by the idea that it's what we're espousing here?

744 Shay4l  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:34:29pm

Thank Gd Almighty! Free at last. A non-ID thread

745 jaunte  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:34:47pm

re: #739 NemoParticularis

If a mutation somehow suits the organism to better take advantage of an environmental niche, the survival of species members with this trait would not be a random happenstance, but would be a direct result of the mutation.

746 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:35:38pm

re: #740 LoFlyer

Survival of the fittest?

But survival of the members of any group is pretty much random - is it not? On the other hand, I suppose it might be a question of the odds: if the new generation can run faster, for example, the odds are much lower that this new generation will get wiped out. Am I stating this correctly?

747 hazzyday  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:36:24pm

re: #683 Tigger2005

I've come to the conclusion, reading george slivers' posts, that he is not for real but is just here for the sport of baiting evolution supporters. Let's not feed the troll anymore.

He gets the "Jeppo" Award. The friendly "tap dances around questions" guy who thinks that is how arguments are won and lost. He taps so he doesn't have to hear the truth. la-la-la-la-la

I consider this type of a person who really does want to know but is afraid of giving up on old reliable ideas. You can lead a horse to water...

748 MrBlonde21  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:37:29pm

Ok, serious post, to prove I'm not drunk on a Sunday afternoon or something...

The only part of this debate that I support is that the view that science should be left alone. That is, the influence of politics should be ignored the slowly changing field of science should be allowed to produce whatever it may in due time. This goes for other issues like stem cell research, global warming, and everything else that people with too much time on their hands (like many of you, no offense) like to politicize without having ever done a single thing to contribute to the understanding of the field.

The REAL scientists will continue with their work uninfluenced by what a bunch of people on the internet are demanding. And yes, I realize the creationists are hijacking the system and you are just 'fighting back.' It would be great if you all could just lose the angst or whatever it is that's fueling your obsessions with this because it ultimately matters very little, sorry to say. Unfortunately, I know very well that this will never happen because too many people have other things invested into this debate.

So... carry on.

749 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:42:04pm

re: #746 NemoParticularis

But survival of the members of any group is pretty much random - is it not? On the other hand, I suppose it might be a question of the odds: if the new generation can run faster, for example, the odds are much lower that this new generation will get wiped out. Am I stating this correctly?

What you are saying sounds correct to me. If the mutation creates a "faster" species capable of defending itself better, then the odds are the "faster" would propagate more easily than the "slower" original species. If the mutation resulted in a "slower" species, then naturally the species would have less of a chance to propagate and survive its natural enemies... I really do dislike these creationism threads, I must have a natural desire to argue and debate. One of the reasons why I hate these "phony trolls" like George Slivers and Mrblonde21...

750 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:42:06pm

re: #145 Sharmuta

Well- if you look, allahpundit give Charles a hat tip right in the opening of that thread at Hot Air.

I was reading some of the comments over there, they never fail to make me laugh. Don't get me wrong, I like Hot Air as a news source (quite a bit actually), but some of the thread commentary is just indescribable.

I wont quote the entire derogatory remark, but I will nominate this little bit for a rotating title:

"a pathological predilection for excommunication"

751 Gambini  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:42:43pm

Mutation is not necessarily "random".
You boil flesh and its color "mutates" from red to white. Is it a random process? no.
Behind every "natural" mutation there is a logical explanation.

752 mfarmer1  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:43:02pm

re: #748 MrBlonde21

Ok, serious post, to prove I'm not drunk on a Sunday afternoon or something...

The only part of this debate that I support is that the view that science should be left alone. That is, the influence of politics should be ignored the slowly changing field of science should be allowed to produce whatever it may in due time. This goes for other issues like stem cell research, global warming, and everything else that people with too much time on their hands (like many of you, no offense) like to politicize without having ever done a single thing to contribute to the understanding of the field.

The REAL scientists will continue with their work uninfluenced by what a bunch of people on the internet are demanding. And yes, I realize the creationists are hijacking the system and you are just 'fighting back.' It would be great if you all could just lose the angst or whatever it is that's fueling your obsessions with this because it ultimately matters very little, sorry to say. Unfortunately, I know very well that this will never happen because too many people have other things invested into this debate.

So... carry on.

Thanks for the green light, boss. Don't forget your Nobel prize on the way out.

753 mad doc  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:44:52pm

Why is this site so ati-intelligent design and pro-evolution. Does it reflect the views of anyone in particular?

754 mossley  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:45:51pm

re: #665 Gambini

You're committing a big mistake by alienating religious and spiritual people, who after all, constitute majority of conservatives.
If you carry on with your anti-religion jihad, you'll end up with the gate-of-vienna white-nationalist guys as sole allies.


Why do you insist on promoting this idiotic lie? There is no attack on religion.

755 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:45:53pm

re: #753 mad doc

Does it reflect the views of anyone in particular?

What do you think?

756 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:45:56pm

re: #749 LoFlyer

What you are saying sounds correct to me. If the mutation creates a "faster" species capable of defending itself better, then the odds are the "faster" would propagate more easily than the "slower" original species. If the mutation resulted in a "slower" species, then naturally the species would have less of a chance to propagate and survive its natural enemies... I really do dislike these creationism threads, I must have a natural desire to argue and debate. One of the reasons why I hate these "phony trolls" like George Slivers and Mrblonde21...

I don't mind the debate or the argument if it's civil and courteous - even if it gets heated at times. I always try to remember to conduct myself as if these folks were in my parlor. I do like these threads because there are times when I can learn from those who know more about the subject than I do.

757 Tigger2005  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:46:24pm

re: #731 Gambini

Instead of calling them stupids and backwards, convince them, give them proofs, and not just nice drawings of how a sole and lonely bacteria can produce life as we have on earth, by merely mutating randomly.

Again, you leave out natural selection.

You also seem very confused. It appears you accept evolution--your problem seems to be with the idea that life emerged from natural processes. That's abiogenesis, not evolution.

I don't remember calling anyone stupid or backwards. But yeah, ignoring the evidence for evolution (which you yourself apparently accept) is idiotic.

I don't think it's quite as idiotic to question whether life emerged through purely natural processes. But, since scientists have found natural explanations for pretty much everything else in nature, it's also kind of idiotic to dismiss out of hand the likelihood that life itself emerged from non-life via natural processes.

You appear ignorant of current ideas concerning abiogenesis. Bacteria are highly complex and no scientist suggests that bacteria sprang from non-life fully formed. Current proposals suggest that a MUCH simpler imperfectly reproducing molecule self-organized as a result of chemical/electrical interactions. Not so far out considering that trillions of chemical/electrical interactions were going on every second on the planet for millions of years.

Right now, the "proof" you demand is not available. Scientists are working on it, though. But when scientists succeed in generating imperfectly self-replicating molecules from non-living materials in the laboratory, will you accept that evidence? Somehow, I think you would find some reason to reject it.

btw, don't get me wrong, I am not talking here about the natural adaptability and evolution of organisms. I am just talking about the "origin of life" theiry of the radical organized atheists.

"Radical organized atheists" didn't propose abiogenesis. Scientists did. Many scientists who accept the possibility of life originating from non-life as the result of chemical processes without direct divine intervention are believers.

758 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:48:51pm

re: #751 Gambini

Mutation is not necessarily "random".
You boil flesh and its color "mutates" from red to white. Is it a random process? no. Behind every "natural" mutation there is a logical explanation.

I grant that there is a logical explanation, but it can still be a random one. An excess of radiation, for example, can cause a mutation. The occurrence was random in the ense that the creature was in a certain place at a certain time when the excess of radiation - let's say it was solar - occurred by happenstance due to a solar flare or some such thing.

759 LoFlyer  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:49:43pm

re: #756 NemoParticularis

I agree 100 percent, nothing increases your knowledge like a good debate, which is why liberals hate it...

760 mossley  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:51:38pm

re: #731 Gambini


btw, don't get me wrong, I am not talking here about the natural adaptability and evolution of organisms. I am just talking about the "origin of life" theiry of the radical organized atheists.


Bullshit. Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life. Either you know this, and think you can fool people with this lie, or you are willfully ignorant of the subject matter. Either option puts you in a bad light and immediately makes any claim of yours suspect.

761 BBev  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:52:14pm

Wow I have been sitting back eating my dinner and watching this slug fest it is quit entertaining.

762 mossley  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:52:23pm

re: #753 mad doc

Why is this site so ati-intelligent design and pro-evolution. Does it reflect the views of anyone in particular?


Maybe the guy who runs it?

763 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:52:58pm

re: #759 LoFlyer

I agree 100 percent, nothing increases your knowledge like a good debate, which is why liberals hate it...

All verey true, which is why I often try to avoid any attempt to debate them. But it isn't just liberals - any close-minded person can be just as frustrating, especially if they have some kind of psychological hang-up about their particular belief system.

764 J.S.  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:54:22pm

re: #741 NemoParticularis

That is correct. Btw, how many times does it take to explain that natural selection is not a random process? Do you need to hear that more often? Do you want it repeated some more? What's the problem?

765 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:57:32pm

re: #764 J.S.

That is correct. Btw, how many times does it take to explain that natural selection is not a random process? Do you need to hear that more often? Do you want it repeated some more? What's the problem?

This is a subject I know little about and am trying to understand. There is no need to be nasty.

766 redc1c4  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:57:38pm

re: #748 MrBlonde21

Ok, serious post, to prove I'm not drunk on a Sunday afternoon or something...
(mercy snipage occurs)

you should have spent the afternoon drinking: then you'd have an excuse.

767 J.S.  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 3:59:56pm

re: #765 NemoParticularis

Well, I'm not trying to be nasty...but we've been over this time and time and time again...(on the ID threads...maybe you missed out on them?)

768 Mich-again  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:01:56pm

re: #760 mossley

Bullshit. Evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the two have nothing to do with each other.

In a letter of Darwin to Joseph Dalton Hooker of February 1, 1871, he made the suggestion that life may have begun in a "warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, [so] that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes."
769 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:03:02pm

re: #767 J.S.

Well, I'm not trying to be nasty...but we've been over this time and time and time again...(on the ID threads...maybe you missed out on them?)

I'm new to this place and not a habitue, so the answer is yes. Sometimes one can err in presuming the level of experiece or the intent of one who asks seemingly naive questions.

770 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:10:50pm

Gambini:

Evolution is neither wholy random nor wholy deterministic - As usual with big truths reality is somewhere between the two extremes. If you replayed the tape of evolution the species we have now would be a lot different, but... their mechanisms overall would be much the same since they obey the laws of physics and biochemistry first. No evolutionary solution is perfect, it just has to work or offer advantage.
e.g. you would probably still see photosynthetic plants and most of the morphology would be similar, but you wouldn't see exact matching species.

There are several mechanisms of evolution, natural selection is but one. Genetic drift, and other factors of chance do come into play but over billions of years, the end would remain remarkably similar in my view.

771 Josephine  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:13:32pm

re: #150 marjoriemoon

Yes, but it's a stupid argument. It doesn't say that we descended from monkeys anyway. We share a common ancestor. It's a completely different thing.

The adament refusal to understand the science is mindboggling to me.

I used to think that way. (I was a fundamentalist Christian many years ago; now I'm just a Christian.) Intelligent people can get stuck in certain mindsets for various reasons.

When people are "born again" and commit, or re-commit, their lives to Christ, science is usually the last thing on their minds. What a Christian believes about evolution depends upon the church/denomination that s/he joins or grows up in.

My husband explained evolution to me many times. I'd end our discussions by laughing at myself (because I knew I was being unreasonable) and saying, "I still don't believe I'm descended from a monkey!"

I don't worry about it anymore. I have my faith and I accept what science has learned. I don't feel threatened by it. I really enjoy the LGF threads that discuss new scientific discoveries.

In my view of heaven, there are massive libraries in which we can learn the history of everything.

772 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:14:49pm

re: #389 george slivers

Then I am afraid I have less respect for you than an athiest who supports evolution. . . .

And this should be upsetting to me because . . . ?

773 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:15:53pm

re: #771 Josephine

I don't worry about it anymore. I have my faith and I accept what science has learned. I don't feel threatened by it. I really enjoy the LGF threads that discuss new scientific discoveries.

Well said - and I agree completely.

774 Josephine  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:18:15pm

re: #159 VegasRick

Blow me.

That's mighty Christian of you.

775 claire  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:19:49pm

re: #769 NemoParticularis

First, to understand evolution, you may need to read up a bit on the basics. This is as good a place to start as any: talkorigins.org Intro to Evolutionary Biology Also check out the archives on the main page for almost any other questions you might have.

Perhaps a more efficient way to absorb the facts than trying to get everybody to spoon feed you?

We don't know what you know and it's really hard to start from scratch with every new person who happens along...

776 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:19:49pm

re: #771 Josephine

In my view of heaven, there are massive libraries in which we can learn the history of everything.

LOL! I sometimes refer to Heaven as the big library in the sky, myself.

777 MrBlonde21  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:20:36pm

re: #748 MrBlonde21

Ok, serious post, to prove I'm not drunk on a Sunday afternoon or something...

The only part of this debate that I support is that the view that science should be left alone. That is, the influence of politics should be ignored the slowly changing field of science should be allowed to produce whatever it may in due time. This goes for other issues like stem cell research, global warming, and everything else that people with too much time on their hands (like many of you, no offense) like to politicize without having ever done a single thing to contribute to the understanding of the field.

The REAL scientists will continue with their work uninfluenced by what a bunch of people on the internet are demanding. And yes, I realize the creationists are hijacking the system and you are just 'fighting back.' It would be great if you all could just lose the angst or whatever it is that's fueling your obsessions with this because it ultimately matters very little, sorry to say. Unfortunately, I know very well that this will never happen because too many people have other things invested into this debate.

So... carry on.

We all know the internets is serious business but you guys have only managed to give me a rating of -5 ?! Seriously, unite LGF evolution massive! Rise to the call and click that red button! Send the message the dissenting viewpoints will not be tolerated here!

778 Thanos  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:24:29pm

Here's another good resource that covers the bare basics in layman's terms, it's online and you can flip through at your own pace.

[Link: evolution.berkeley.edu...]

779 abolitionist  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:24:46pm

re: #753 mad doc

Why is this site so ati-intelligent design and pro-evolution. Does it reflect the views of anyone in particular?

Welcome to LGF. This is one issue of many.

Intelligent design is a term invented relatively recently, specifically for a fraudulent repackaging and promotion of a fundamentalist strain of creationism, whose advocates have been repeatedly rebuffed by court decisions. They are trying to push religion and scripture into science classrooms and textbooks. This is contrary to the establishment clause of the First Amendment.

See here: Wedge Strategy or here: Wedge document

780 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:26:12pm

re: #777 MrBlonde21

We all know the internets is serious business but you guys have only managed to give me a rating of -5 ?! Seriously, unite LGF evolution massive! Rise to the call and click that red button! Send the message the dissenting viewpoints will not be tolerated here!

I would, but your post has been deleted. Wait, no, it's still there. I guess your "dissenting viewpoints will not be tolerated here" assertion was just a bunch of BS.

Disagreement is not intolerance, nor persecution, no matter how much you wish it were.

781 Sharmuta  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:28:44pm

re: #780 Slumbering Behemoth

Perhaps he's trolling for martyr points.

782 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:29:40pm

re: #780 Slumbering Behemoth

no matter how much you wish it were.

He does sound like he likes it, doesn't he.

783 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:31:52pm

re: #781 Sharmuta

re: #782 pre-Boomer Marine brat

High fives!

/can only do two at a time

784 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:32:38pm

re: #781 Sharmuta

Perhaps he's trolling for martyr points.

Too bad the Inquisition isn't still running. He'd be out of our hair in a heartbeat.

785 mad doc  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:36:37pm

re: #764 J.S.

That is correct. Btw, how many times does it take to explain that natural selection is not a random process? Do you need to hear that more often? Do you want it repeated some more? What's the problem?

If natural selection is not a random process what then what is the law that it operates under?

786 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:37:13pm

Why is the Discovery Institute, the ICR, Harun Yahya, et al, so anti-American/anti-constitution and pro-theocracy. Does it reflect the views of anyone in particular?

787 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:40:49pm

re: #598 george slivers

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

Because, that's what Genetic Epidemiologists do...they review papers and write grants.

At least...I think that's what they do.

I could be wrong, this is one expensive hobby.

788 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:41:28pm

re: #753 mad doc

Why is this site so ati-intelligent design and pro-evolution. Does it reflect the views of anyone in particular?

Help - I accidently updinged this.

789 jcw46  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:42:25pm

On the rise?

More like being more vocal. I agree what they're doing is misguided at best but it is a reaction to the "de-religionizing" being done by school administrators and those who would wish to diminish the influence of those who are religious and increase the influence of those who aren't.

The goals of the non-religious for doing this are many and the results impact those in school negatively a fact which rouses the non-religious to even greater attempts to eradicate religion and it's mostly positive influence. (they cannot abide that religion is a positive influence for most people.)

790 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:49:43pm

re: #788 debutaunt

Help - I accidently updinged this.

Leave it, Sharm. He's only been in a few days, and has only made two posts as of a moment ago. He probably just doesn't know.

791 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:51:08pm

re: #790 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Leave it, Sharm. He's only been in a few days, and has only made two posts as of a moment ago. He probably just doesn't know.

Though if he keeps it up, I'll join in too.

792 jcw46  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:51:32pm

re: #598 george slivers

Well, my fellow lizards, it has truly been fun. I'm sorry that I could not help you understand ID and science better, but revolutionary ideas are always persecuted before they become mainstream.

I've got work to do, papers to review, and grants to write.

In all your horseplay, I hope you gained a little from the wisdom I offered. If not, maybe some other time.

Take care.

Hah! YOU again with the "work to do, papers to review and grants to write".

I say again; Anytime you would like to show us ANY scholarly essay/report written by you or anyone else supporting your view (or anything else for that matter), let me know. I will personally setup an account for you to download your file to for linking to by those here at LGF.

I'm calling you out NOW. You won't reply because you just have an opinion like everyone else here but you want to pretend that you're some kind of scholar/researcher and therefore your opinion should carry more weight or that our discussion is beneath you responding to any arguments.

B.S.! This is the second time that I know of that you have fled the field behind those words. Why do you keep returning if you're so F!cking busy that you can't be bothered to respond when your b.s. is called out?

793 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:51:33pm

re: #775 claire

Perhaps a more efficient way to absorb the facts than trying to get everybody to spoon feed you? We don't know what you know and it's really hard to start from scratch with every new person who happens along...

Perhaps it never occurred to you that I might enjoy some pleasant conversation while trying to learn. That is the primary reason I signed up to be a member of LGF. I realize that sparring with trolls and the garrulously obtuse can take its toll on a person's nerves and patience. I also know that snapping at neophytes is not a very good way to present a case or the arguments that support it, nor is it an effective way to endear yourself to people you don't very well.

794 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:52:02pm

re: #790 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Leave it, Sharm. He's only been in a few days, and has only made two posts as of a moment ago. He probably just doesn't know.

DAMN ... DEB, I mean!
ARGH.
*blush*
*pummel head*

795 NemoParticularis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:55:14pm

re: #775 claire

This is as good a place to start as any: talkorigins.org Intro to Evolutionary Biology Also check out the archives on the main page for almost any other questions you might have.

I neglected to thank you for the link in my previous post and apologize for the omission. I will most certainly avail myself of this information.

796 anduril3019  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 4:55:51pm

re: #671 mfarmer1

Just a note: I don't know about three days, the whole flood and receding of the waters lasted about a year, but I guess I am one of those morons you are referring to and I can handle some lively debate even with a little ridicule thrown in for good measure. Don't worry, no alienating happening here!

797 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:00:34pm

re: #777 MrBlonde21

We all know the internets is serious business but you guys have only managed to give me a rating of -5 ?! Seriously, unite LGF evolution massive! Rise to the call and click that red button! Send the message the dissenting viewpoints will not be tolerated here!

You are very well tolerated, in spite of your silly knee jerk reaction to criticism. Please do continue to post and take what comes like an adult, instead of a whining child.

You said earlier

The only part of this debate that I support is that the view that science should be left alone.

What do you mean by "left alone"? It sounds a lot like what you mean is swept under a rug, if you don't like it; but I could be wrong, so do come back...

798 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:01:24pm

re: #788 debutaunt

Help - I accidently updinged this.

Got it. - 7 now.

799 Josephine  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:02:17pm

re: #441 george slivers

Yes, pointing out spelling and grammar errors is so clever, especially when you can't refute the content of their argument.

Fine all use the D@mn spell checker.

all = I'll ?

PhD?

800 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:05:28pm
801 jcw46  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:05:54pm

BTW for other LGF'ers; this George Slivers poster used almost identical arguments about 4-7 days ago on an ID thread. I offered to post any essay/report that they had written or that would back up their argument at a location that I would provide. NEVER HEARD FROM THEM.
Apparently I just missed them again unless they're lurking.

Oh GEORGE, COME OUT AND PLAY.

GEORGIE PORGIE COME OUT AND PLAY...

I can not stand pompous, pretentious, self-righteous posters that think it's cute to toss a load of crap out and then run a way.

COME BACK HERE YOU COWARD!

I'M GIVING YOU THE CHANCE OF A LIFETIME TO HAVE YOUR PAPERS PRESENTED TO A LARGE AUDIENCE FOR REVIEW AND CRITIQUE.

DON'T SHOW UP HERE AGAIN CAUSE I'M PUTTING THE WORD OUT AND I'LL BE WATCHING MORE CAREFULLY FOR YOU IN THE FUTURE.

802 Josephine  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:07:58pm

re: #518 george slivers

Darwinists have created such a tyrannical environment that it isn't safe to reveal my CV and bib.

What a bunch of hooey.

803 Josephine  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:08:39pm

re: #802 Josephine

What a bunch of hooey.

Hooey: it grows in bunches.

804 debutaunt  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:08:52pm

re: #794 pre-Boomer Marine brat

DAMN ... DEB, I mean!
ARGH.
*blush*
*pummel head*

That's how I felt when I updinged it!

805 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:08:59pm

re: #801 jcw46

clicking his info indicates he's signed off ... for the moment.

Sic 'em anyway!

806 Naso Tang  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:09:33pm

re: #665 Gambini

You're committing a big mistake by alienating religious and spiritual people, who after all, constitute majority of conservatives.
If you carry on with your anti-religion jihad, you'll end up with the gate-of-vienna white-nationalist guys as sole allies.

Who are you addressing, and what is the mistake, or the consequences thereof?

807 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:11:46pm

re: #804 debutaunt

That's how I felt when I updinged it!

I can guess. *grin*

Let's see how he pans out. He only registered 3 days ago. His second post up there sounded like a sincere request for data. Who knows?

808 hazzyday  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:12:52pm

re: #753 mad doc

Why is this site so ati-intelligent design and pro-evolution. Does it reflect the views of anyone in particular?

If intelligent design is anti evolution then every well thought person should be anti ID. If you are a yec'er you should be prepared to be embarrassed in life's travels. Along with the troofers, the Paulians, and what not'ers

809 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:13:56pm

re: #803 Josephine

Hooey: it grows in bunches.

He's like an idiot who stands in the middle of the railroad tracks, shaking his fist in anger at the oncoming train (and hoping the news cameras are running.)

810 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:14:56pm

re: #808 hazzyday

If intelligent design is anti evolution then every well thought person should be anti ID. If you are a yec'er you should be prepared to be embarrassed in life's travels. Along with the troofers, the Paulians, and what not'ers

JIC, see my #807.

811 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:16:24pm

re: #808 hazzyday

BTW, what is the cross in your avatar?

812 DeathtotheSwiss  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:16:49pm

re: #792 jcw46

To be fair, he did sit and respond a while. Possibly three hours or so on the same thread.

Mostly lies or at the very least disengenuous truths, but he was here. Even replied to a few of my posts.

813 reine.de.tout  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:17:13pm

re: #804 debutaunt

That's how I felt when I updinged it!

I have at times felt the same pain.

814 Salamantis  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:19:45pm

re: #71 Sharmuta

Indeed- we don't fix leftist indoctrination by adding creationist indoctrination.

Yeah...as I've said before, that's like treating arsenic poisoning with a dose of strychnine.

815 gman  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:21:49pm

Here is a copy of the memo from Monica Martinez- Director of Curriculum, requesting the termination of Chris Comer.

Sending this email not only demonstrates a serious lack of good judgment, it also violates the directive Ms. Comer was given not to communicate in writing or otherwise with anyone outside the agency inany way that might compromise the integrity of the TEKS development and revision process.

TEKS- Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills (The official standards for curricula in Texas public schools)

Ironically, she was told that her e-mail might jeopardize neutrality on the upcoming TEKS development and revision process when in fact she was helping to solidify state science standards by forwarding an e-mail publicizing a lecture by Barbara Forrest that opposed the teaching of creationism in science classes.

More here and here

816 hazzyday  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:22:47pm

re: #811 pre-Boomer Marine brat

BTW, what is the cross in your avatar?

Hermetic Cross

817 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Jul 27, 2008 5:25:08pm

re: #816 hazzyday

Hermetic Cross

Thanks.