Time for public input on a ZOMBIE DILEMMA:

Remember my Folsom Street Fair report from last year? How controversial it was? And how X-rated?

Well, I just got back from a very similar event -- a spin-off of the Folsom event, actually, also (apparently) sponsored by Miller Beer. So I'd thought I'd do a follow-up report on the whole controversy to see if Miller is still involved, and if the events they're sponsoring are still so controversial.

Well...I'm sure you can guess where this is leading. Today's event made the Folsom Street Fair look like an episode of Leave It to Beaver. There's X-rated, and then there's XXX-rated, which this was.

I made a vow not to self-censor, but I swear this will get me banned on several continents.

What do I do?

Publish the report, as before with blurred/unblurred versions of the key photos, consequences be damned?
Publish a censored version?
Just drop the whole thing, delete the photos, and go knit a sweater for my nephew?
Or...?

Just watched the video. Ha! And they say chimps aren't as smart as humans.

Two immediate reactions:

1) Those guys up there are brave. An angry chimp can put all kinds of really bad hurt on even a full-grown man. And that is one bigass chimp.

2) That said, I feel kinda bad for the chimp.

Don't piss-off the monkey...please!

Blow gun. Great thinking.

Submit it to Animal Planet. Public Mating Rituals of the Moonbat.

re: #1 zombie

Make people go through the first Folsom fair report to get to it, with a disclaimer at the end that you've just written. Then everyone will have had fair warning.

re: #1 zombie

When the f*ck do you have time to knit?

The chimp came out of this just fine. He finally gave up and climbed down when they offered him a banana.

Yes, really.

They caught him with a banana.

ChimpyMcBushilter leaving the White House on Jan. 20th.

/ moonbat.

re: #1 zombie

I am uninterested in the pr0n of the intensely perverse. Nothing surprises me anymore, sadly.

re: #1 zombie

Publish a censored version?

That's my vote.

I think the story should be reported, on the one hand. Corporate sponsors for this sort of depravity? Their potential consumers should know. (For me, I can hardly drink Miller any less)

If it's as bad as you say, an unexpurgated version will be dismissed as voyeurism, on the other.

So a censored version seems the optimal route.

Don't forget that the anti-evolution crowd (or perhaps just entrepreneurs) brought a chimpanzee named Joe Mendi to the Scopes Trial in Dayton Tennessee in 1925. "Get a souvenir photo with your grandfather!" was the sarcastic pitch.

Anti-NRA chimp.

re: #13 Occasional Reader

That's my vote.

I think the story should be reported, on the one hand. Corporate sponsors for this sort of depravity? Their potential consumers should know. (For me, I can hardly drink Miller any less)

If it's as bad as you say, an unexpurgated version will be dismissed as voyeurism, on the other.

So a censored version seems the optimal route.

Agreed, I vote with OR.

re: #9 Charles

He finally gave up and climbed down when they offered him a banana.

It just goes to show you: Every chimp has his price.

re: #1 zombie

I vote "Let 'er rip."

Buddy of mine was a zookeeper's assistant back in the day. He claimed he worked in the Orang house at the Houston zoo in the late 70s.

One of the big orange fellas got loose and took something like twelve shots from tranks to finally knock him out. Damn thing weighed almost 500 lbs, he claimed.

#3 got it right. Primates are not to be screwed with lightly.

re: #1 zombie

If this happened the way you said it was, then I don't see how you can be punished to showing photos of a event that happened. I'd do the blurred/unblurred thing again, and load it up with plenty of warnings.

BTW, the Folsom Sreet fair photos were bad, but you're saying this is worse? Do they not have any rules in that city?

re: #1 zombiePublish it, uncensored. It was a public event, right? You didn't "trick" anyone to "get in" with your camera, did you? There were other folks taking photos too, I assume?
Publish it - no censorship or blurring.
You are, after all, ZOMBIE, LGF Operative!

Funny you should post this, Charles, since I was just enjoying my favorite zoo today; the National Zoo here in DC.

I know how I feels. I get the same treatment at work every day.

re: #7 jaunte

Make people go through the first Folsom fair report to get to it, with a disclaimer at the end that you've just written. Then everyone will have had fair warning.

zombie...I agree iwth jaunte here. Put tons of diclaimers up and bury it. If they really want to go see that stuff, then make it a bit more difficult for them.

As for Zombie: well, you're only photographing primates in their native habitat. Maybe you can get Jane Goodall to do the voice-over.

re: #19 Arkay

Orangutans are even stronger than chimps, IIRC. I seem to recall "eight times stronger on average" as the rule of thumb.

On the other hand, we have thumbs.

Not to mention, red dot sights.

re: #1 zombie

You better publish it before the MSM beats you to it.

/

re: #23 nemesis443

I know how he feels, not I!

Woo..
Im ahead, Im a man
Im the first mammal to wear pants, yeah
Im at peace with my lust
I can kill cause in God I trust, yeah
Its evolution, baby

Im at peace, Im the man
Buying stocks on the day of the crash
On the loose, Im a truck
All the rolling hills, Ill flatten em out, yeah
Its herd behavior, uh huh
Its evolution, baby

Admire me, admire my home
Admire my song, here's my coat
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah
This land is mine, this land is free
Ill do what I want but irresponsibly
Its evolution, baby

Im a thief, Im a liar
Theres my church, I sing in the choir:
(hallelujah hallelujah)

Admire me, admire my home
Admire my song, admire my clothes
cause we know, appetite for a nightly feast
Those ignorant indians got nothin on me
Nothin, why?
Because, its evolution, baby!

I am ahead, I am advanced
I am the first mammal to make plans, yeah
I crawled the earth, but now Im higher
Twenty-ten, watch it go to fire
Its evolution, baby (2x)
Do the evolution
Come on, come on, come on

re: #1 zombie

What do I do?

Publish the report, as before with blurred/unblurred versions of the key photos, consequences be damned?
Publish a censored version?
Just drop the whole thing, delete the photos, and go knit a sweater for my nephew?
Or...?

My vote is for both a censored as well as an uncensored version- with plenty of warnings on the latter. As disdainful and potentially obscene as this might very well be, sometimes people have to be taken to account for their actions, on a personal and corporate level. If corporations are indeed supporting something like this, blurred photos would have hardly the same impact as the true images, which may, in fact, might make quite an impression on the stock holders.

IMHO, for what it's worth.

re: #21 realwest

Publish it, uncensored. It was a public event, right? You didn't "trick" anyone to "get in" with your camera, did you? There were other folks taking photos too, I assume?
Publish it - no censorship or blurring.
You are, after all, ZOMBIE, LGF Operative!

Oh yes, it was a public event, on a public street, free and open to all, no entrance fee. And no, I didn't need to do anything to get people to "perform" for the cameras. They were performing plenty enthusiastically of their own volition. And oh yes, lotsa cameras floating around. But as with Folsom last year, I suspect that none of those other photos will see the light of day for some reason.

re: #26 cutestguy

zombie, publish the entire thing, uncensored.

Make sure everyone sees it so Miller Brewing Company gets the big drop in earnings.

Put together a nice portfolio, 8x10 glossies, depravity in the foreground Miller in the background. Fedex it to the CEO.

re: #30 reno911

What song is THAT?

re: #1 zombie

What do you feel is right and ethical?

(I no longer drink Miller - after the Folsom report).

Thank you for your service.

Seems like the chimp took some lessons from General Ursus.

re: #26 cutestguy

zombie, publish the entire thing, uncensored.

Make sure everyone sees it so Miller Brewing Company gets the big drop in earnings.

If I publish it COMPLETELY uncensored, I really will be banned forever by those corporate filter/ban-list companies.

re: #9 Charles

The chimp came out of this just fine. He finally gave up and climbed down when they offered him a banana.

Yes, really.

As they say- flies with honey.

Haha, I was totally rooting for the chimp the whole way! =)

re: #1 zombie

Now, a more serious answer.

This event came to your camera uncensored, and it would only be right to present it that way. I remember the report from the Folsum Street fair, and it sickened me. However, I would not have known how truly filthy that scene was without your publication. I could have chosen to view the censored version, but for the sake of knowing, looked through the uncensored version. If you had censored yourself, I doubt I would have thought much of it.

Both versions.

re: #1 zombie

Let the cards fall where they may zombie...after all, they're responsible adults right?

a full grown mature chimp can kill you. easily.
that's why michael jackson got rid of 'bubbles'.

re: #7 jaunte

re: #13 Occasional Reader
and
re: #24 Macker

Kindly see my #21 all y'all - I think Zombie should show what was shown in public where other folks were also photographing it. Blurring it or otherwise censoring let's Miller off too easy.

re: #34 Macker

It's a Pearl Jam tune.

re: #40 cutestguy

Is it really that horrible?

Oh yeah. Trust me. Probably worse than you're imagining.

Get your filthy paws off of me, you damned dirty apes!

Zomboid, I second #31 Shibumi's suggestion.

Make it clear you're the REPORTER, and NOT THE ACTORS REPORTED!

re: #1 zombie

go knit a sweater for my nephew?
Or...?

*ears perk* Are you on Ravelry?

re: #1 zombie

Have you considered selling the images back to the Street Fair participants?
Anonymously, of course.

/ok, really:
No censored photos. A concise, factual report with a "Graphic Images" warning.

Power to the Correct People!
(They don't shoot the messenger.)

Why do I keep getting a "403 Error" when I log onto this site?

Monkeys?

Charles posted Monkey Man awhile back and it ran around in my head for weeks!

Watch it at your own risk! Ay ya ya......

What Occasional reader said.

The uncensored version needs to be given to the head of Miller (hopefully, no pun intended), or to a jury.

Bill and Hillary were naked and holding hands, weren't they?

gorillas, the biggest and strongest of the great apes are the most docile.

Adventurer Steve Fossett 'may have faked his own death'

However, Lieutenant Colonel Cynthia Ryan of the US Civil Air Patrol has said Fossett, whose body or plane was never found, could still be alive.

She said: "I've been doing this search and rescue for 14 years. Fossett should have been found.

"It's not like we didn't have our eyes open. We found six other planes while we were looking for him. We're pretty good at what we do."

Fossett's disappearance sparked the biggest search in American history, with the Civil Air Patrol's Black Hawks, fitted with infra-red technology, joined by over 30 private planes and internet experts scanning the Nevada desert looking for clues.

Lt Col Ryan believes Fossett may have faked his own death due to personal problems or fears about his business dealings.

/he's already been declared legally dead and the insurance has been paid out

Zombie, I'd vote for publishing it, but instead of blurring use Miller logos the way that black rectangles would normally get used.

re: #45 realwest

re: #13 Occasional Reader
and
re: #24 Macker

Kindly see my #21 all y'all - I think Zombie should show what was shown in public where other folks were also photographing it. Blurring it or otherwise censoring let's Miller off too easy.

I can do what I did last time -- the blurred version is the default on the page, but if you simply click on it, it changes to the unblurred uncensored version.

re: #20 chicagodudewhotrades

If this happened the way you said it was, then I don't see how you can be punished to showing photos of a event that happened. I'd do the blurred/unblurred thing again, and load it up with plenty of warnings.

BTW, the Folsom Sreet fair photos were bad, but you're saying this is worse? Do they not have any rules in that city?

Do it the same way you did the Folsom Street fair.

re: #1 zombie

Publish the report, as before with blurred/unblurred versions of the key photos, consequences be damned?

I'd take this route. Showing an "R" rated version accomplishes little or nothing.

The truth is the best shield.

re: #50 lori lane

*ears perk* Are you on Ravelry?

"I'm sorry, that information is classified."

re: #38 zombie

If I publish it COMPLETELY uncensored, I really will be banned forever by those corporate filter/ban-list companies.

Don't risk being banned for it. Publish a blurred version. Not sure I wanna see a High Definition version of the depravity anyway.

re: #32 zombie

I am assuming that this was the transgender event today, in which case, there are probably all manner of spectacles, of both natural and modern scientific marvels.

#1 Zombie..

If you feel they are so bad they will cause your own site trouble, especially from your own ISP, then censor if you must but by all means, publish.

re: #59 zombie
That is my fav solution.

re: #34 Macker

Do the Evolution

re: #27 Occasional Reader

Orangutans are even stronger than chimps, IIRC. I seem to recall "eight times stronger on average" as the rule of thumb.

On the other hand, we have thumbs.

Not to mention, red dot sights.

Red dot sights are good.

There is only one "Monkey Man".

re: #1 zombie
That's a hard one to call zombie. For purely prurient interest, I want to see them, which tells me to advise putting them up.
OTOH, I don't know what effect this will have on your hosting. I know many ISPs are a little touchy on what they call adult oriented material, and I would hate to see you have to deal with a lot of problems over this.
In light of your interest to not self-censor, I lean to posting the photos. If they become more trouble than they are worth, you can likely pull them back down with an explanation, without too much fallout.

re: #32 zombie Well you know best, zombie - and you're probably right that the other photos won't see the light of day -except to friends and friends of friends and so forth.
I'm all for Gay Rights and I believe that Gay folks should have - at the least - civil unions, but to not publish them in their uncensored format would, I think, be sort of at least mitigating to a degree what actually did happen amongst a fringe element of the Gay Community and give THEM more ammunition to "communicate" with those at the Street Festival that this is not helping the cause of Gay Liberation one slight bit.

re: #11 jcm

ChimpyMcBushilter leaving the White House on Jan. 20th.

/ moonbat.

You know the whole PRESIDENT-AS-CHIMP thing has been such a knee-slapper the past 8 years, I think it would be such a hoot if we keep it going after 01-20-2009. How about it? That'd be OK, right? Right?

re: #59 zombie

I can do what I did last time -- the blurred version is the default on the page, but if you simply click on it, it changes to the unblurred uncensored version.

Sounds reasonable. With explicit warning, etc. (I'm still sleeping with a nite-lite after clicking the unblurred version of your last round of Folsom pics)

re: #57 Killian Bundy

I have always thought that the death was staged.

re: #72 Abu Al-Poopypants

You know the whole PRESIDENT-AS-CHIMP thing has been such a knee-slapper the past 8 years, I think it would be such a hoot if we keep it going after 01-20-2009. How about it? That'd be OK, right? Right?

Oh, yeah, the left would just jovially laugh along, you know it.

/

Ack, who rogered the thread?

re: #75 rawmuse

I have always thought that the death was staged.

/the details in the article are rather interesting

re: #11 jcm

ChimpyMcBushilter leaving the White House on Jan. 20th.

/ moonbat.

ding ding ding - A winner!

re: #62 zombie

Classifed, huh? lol :)

As for the various suggestions regarding Miller logos and so forth:

The whole point is that the Miller sponsorship was toned WAY down. In fact, you had to look closely to see their logo at all. They removed the big signs, they used plain no-logo beer cups, etc. I think last year's report had an effect -- the effect of making their sponsorship less obvious, since I had many photos of men holding Miller Beer cups while being on the receiving end of...well, you get the idea. I'm sure the Public Relations department recommended that the logo be removed wherever possible. BUT, they seem to still have the beer concession, as far as I could tell. So they didn't disconnect themselves completely.

re: #72 Abu Al-Poopypants

You know the whole PRESIDENT-AS-CHIMP thing has been such a knee-slapper the past 8 years, I think it would be such a hoot if we keep it going after 01-20-2009. How about it? That'd be OK, right? Right?

I'm all for it.
If nothing less than moonbat heads apoppin' everywhere!

re: #64 rawmuse

I am assuming that this was the transgender event today, in which case, there are probably all manner of spectacles, of both natural and modern scientific marvels.

Nope. It was the Dore event. Basically, Folsom Jr.

re: #80 lori lane

Classifed, huh? lol :)

You should check out Zombie's blog, newbie.

www.zombietime.com

It's quite a piece of work.

The honor killing thing on Fox is really disturbing. I'm just listening and it is raising my blood pressure.
re: #82 jcm

I'm all for it.
If nothing less than moonbat heads apoppin' everywhere!

Cheney/Bush '08!

re: #47 zombie
I vote for one of each (Censored and uncensored) After all, we all are consenting adults. right? When you published the pics last time I was stunned. I had no idea any city in the western hemisphere would allow people to walk around naked and having public sex, much less "blowing up their balloon" I told a co-worker about that one and he flat-out called me a liar.

The regular press won't touch this with a 30 foot cattle prod, so I join Charles and say, Let-er rip!

A little song about evolution by my personal friend Biff Rose, may his crazy ass live forever.

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

That's very cool. I actually have that on vinyl.

re: #84 Noam Sayin'

thx for the link!

and i'm not mentioning the H word tonight. :)

re: #78 Killian Bundy

The plane could have easily been ditched in a lake. Fossett walks away, starts a new life. Change your physical appearance. Get a social security number from the recently dead. The hardest thing to change is your gait. You have to do special gimmicks for that.

re: #57 Killian Bundy

"It's not like we didn't have our eyes open. We found six other planes while we were looking for him. We're pretty good at what we do."

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but when were those six planes you found reported missing?

re: #57 Killian Bundy
Hey Killian!
"It's not like we didn't have our eyes open. We found six other planes while we were looking for him. We're pretty good at what we do." Uh, were y'all looking for those six planes contemporaneously or did they just get found?

Viva la Chimp!

re: #71 realwest

Well you know best, zombie - and you're probably right that the other photos won't see the light of day -except to friends and friends of friends and so forth.
I'm all for Gay Rights and I believe that Gay folks should have - at the least - civil unions, but to not publish them in their uncensored format would, I think, be sort of at least mitigating to a degree what actually did happen amongst a fringe element of the Gay Community and give THEM more ammunition to "communicate" with those at the Street Festival that this is not helping the cause of Gay Liberation one slight bit.

Interesting thesis! That's actually part of my dilemma too, which I mused on at length in the introduction to the Folsom report: I have no problem with gay rights, gay marriage, etc., and for all anyone knows I may be gay myself. But I realize this report may give ammunition to the gay-haters. Problematic.

But I still feel I should "calls it as I sees it," which seems to be the prevailing vote total here as well!

re: #88 jaunte

That's very cool. I actually have that on vinyl.

He's a very good friend of mine. A real basket case, but I still have a place for him in my heart. He is almost 70 now, still running around the states, no place to live, a real retro-hippie, stays with friends, plays coffee houses and festivals, the whole nine yards.

re: #59 zombie Yeah, that would work too, but I also like Abu Al-Poopypants suggestion at #58, with the option you mentioned, that of clicking the Miller Logo to make it "disappear".

Speaking of chimps . . .

Indian Monkey God Sent To Obama

re: #72 Abu Al-Poopypants

You know the whole PRESIDENT-AS-CHIMP thing has been such a knee-slapper the past 8 years, I think it would be such a hoot if we keep it going after 01-20-2009. How about it? That'd be OK, right? Right?

Racist...shame on you Abu.

/sarc

re: #77 CyanSnowHawk

Ack, who rogered the thread?

It may have just been my machine. I gave #18 Charles a '+' and the thread jumped to superwide, just like a classy trailer park. A refresh after I asked about the rogering seems to have fixed it.

re: #89 lori lane

thx for the link!

and i'm not mentioning the H word tonight. :)

No worries. I truly enjoyed everyone busting my balls for not wearing a helmet. The next morning, I went to feed my friend's cats, then went to Perkins for pancakes, then went on a nice, long ride.

I wore a helmet.

re: #87 Walter L. Newton

I have a couple of his albums, but I never met anyone else who knew about him. Didn't he have another song about paramecia discovering sex, among other things?

re: #94 zombie

What would you do if it were heterosexuals?

re: #92 realwest

Good point. If they were so good at their jobs, maybe they would have found those already. That was my first, cynical thought, at least.

re: #100 Noam Sayin'

I wore a helmet.

*slaps Noam on the back*

re: #102 Van Helsing

What would you do if it were heterosexuals?

Most definitely.

re: #94 zombie

While you may have a point about the 'gay-haters' I think this thing should be shared. I would be willing to bet you that one person in 1000 out here in 'flyover country' has any inkling about this sort of public saturnalia out west. Sunlight is still the best disinfectant.

Very OT:

Last night, on the local tv news, it was announced that the Chosen One was opening seven new campaign headquarters in the Detroit area. One of them was in Dearbornistan. The sign in the plate glass window read:

OBAMA ARAB AMERICAN FOR PRESIDENT.

Has anyone else seen Obama presented as an arab before? Any thoughts on this presentation?

And who can't forget Monkey vs. Robot!

re: #105 zombie

Most definitely.

There's your answer.

re: #88 jaunte

That's very cool. I actually have that on vinyl.

Another note for musical history buffs. That's Van Dyke Parks on Moog towards the end of the song. Very early use of Moog on an album.

And of course, Biff on piano.

re: #91 jorline

Perhaps this is a stupid question, but when were those six planes you found reported missing?

The oldest was '64.

If Fossett's plane burned it would be virtually impossible to see from the air.

The strut-braced wings of the Decathlon are, like the fuselage and tail surfaces, fabric covered, utilizing aluminum ribs. The wings of Champion and Bellanca Decathlons were built with wooden spars.

It would be a few aluminum tubes with would look like branches and an engine block would look like a rock, you'd have to be virtually standing on it to tell what it had been.

re: #74 cutestguy

No there isnt

Not much of a ska fan, myself. I still go with the Stones' version, hands down.

OK, the vote is in:

Publish, but with blurred/unblurred photos! And a warning!

re: #92 realwest

Hey Killian!
"It's not like we didn't have our eyes open. We found six other planes while we were looking for him. We're pretty good at what we do." Uh, were y'all looking for those six planes contemporaneously or did they just get found?

Hey RW...see my #91, GMTA...salt and pepper LOL

re: #105 zombie

Most definitely.

Then you've answered your own question.

re: #74 cutestguy

Well, I hope were not too messianic
Or a trifle too satanic
We love to play the blues

re: #105 zombie

Then do the same.
No problem.

re: #94 zombie

But I realize this report may give ammunition to the gay-haters. Problematic.

I'm sure it's no secret to you, or anyone else here. The gay-haters are going to hate the gays regardless if there are photos on the innernets or not. Haters hate. It's what they do.

Lancelot Link - The Evolution Revolution

re: #105 zombie

Agreed. Some acts are not meant for public display. Eliminating waste and procreating are right up there at the top of it if you ask me, and I don't care if they're hetero, homo, auto or whatever.
Get a room.

re: #107 shibumi

Has anyone else seen Obama presented as an arab before? Any thoughts on this presentation?

At this point, I don't think anyone's sure what the hell the guy is, period.

I had to look at the Folsom Street Fair pictures before I could make an informed decision. The event today was wilder than that was? Were the people as out of shape and ugly as those at FSF?

At least you couldn't be accused of acting out of prurient interest. I've never seen any so unsexy...

re: #94 zombie

But I still feel I should "calls it as I sees it," which seems to be the prevailing vote total here as well!

Frankly, I think gays that are really interested in getting married, joining the Boy Scouts and participating in mainstream American life, would do well to disassociate themselves from the Folsom Street crowd anyway. So I think you're doing them a favor.

re: #1 zombie

Time for public input on a ZOMBIE DILEMMA:

Remember my Folsom Street Fair report from last year? How controversial it was? And how X-rated?

Well, I just got back from a very similar event -- a spin-off of the Folsom event, actually, also (apparently) sponsored by Miller Beer. So I'd thought I'd do a follow-up report on the whole controversy to see if Miller is still involved, and if the events they're sponsoring are still so controversial.

Well...I'm sure you can guess where this is leading. Today's event made the Folsom Street Fair look like an episode of Leave It to Beaver. There's X-rated, and then there's XXX-rated, which this was.

I made a vow not to self-censor, but I swear this will get me banned on several continents.

What do I do?

Publish the report, as before with blurred/unblurred versions of the key photos, consequences be damned?
Publish a censored version?
Just drop the whole thing, delete the photos, and go knit a sweater for my nephew?
Or...?

Option a

re: #101 jaunte

I have a couple of his albums, but I never met anyone else who knew about him. Didn't he have another song about paramecia discovering sex, among other things?

Yes. It's called "Paradise Lost" which is actually a poem by (poop, I can't remember the guys name), was a journalist for the Cinncinatti Plains Dealer, Paul Newmans uncle, name escapes me.

re: #96 realwest

You are in my thoughts tonight. Hang in there. I heard a rumour that atheist prayers are the best one's of all. Peace.

re: #100 Noam Sayin'
HEY NAOM! Good on you my friend - you're waaay too valuable a person to lose simply cause you didn't wear your helmet!

re: #105 zombie

Its not the homosexuality that is repugnant here, its the profligate disrespect for PUBLIC behaviour, and the shameless display of easy familiarity and unchaste attitudes.

I like your 'fuzzed out-click_here_for_unfuzzed' concept... and concur that Internet Service Providers are much more liable to fault YOU, than the moral midgets whose reprehensible behaviour you're striving to document, Zom!

re: #122 Cartman

At this point, I don't think anyone's sure what the hell the guy is, period.

Good point.

However, I think we can all agree that he is male.

I think.

/I mean, he could come out a transgender, or a hermaphrodite, perhaps that's the October surprise.

Cousin Bessie could've helped him out.

re: #94 zombie

Interesting thesis! That's actually part of my dilemma too, which I mused on at length in the introduction to the Folsom report: I have no problem with gay rights, gay marriage, etc., and for all anyone knows I may be gay myself. But I realize this report may give ammunition to the gay-haters. Problematic.

But I still feel I should "calls it as I sees it," which seems to be the prevailing vote total here as well!

If we continue to allow this public display of behavior without objection and by not exposing what it is and those who sanction and finance it ... well ... don't be shocked when it comes to your town and is in your and your families face!

Let her rip Zom!

100 days, 100 nights to know a man's heart.

Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings "100 Days, 100 Nights"

Exactly one hundred days until the election.

re: #105 zombie

Most definitely.

Consider this: The MSM got into the mess it is today partially by fretting about how a story will "play" vis-a-vis political issues. They ignore or tone-down entire stories because of concerns about repercussions. That is not their job, and it badly hurt them. Don't make the same mistake. The potential fall-out from these events is the concern of the gay community, not you as a reporter.

re: #109 stevieray
Yep!
How you doing tonight stevieray? Well, I hope!

re: #108 Macker

Dayum! Thanks for that! When I was at the Philmont Scout camp with the eldest that was a great topic for the chidren..

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

Not to nitpick, but the Cinci paper is The Enquirer and the Cleveland paper is The Plain Dealer. For what it's worth.

re: #1 zombie

Lots o monkey bidness, eh?

The premise of the exercise was to, "see if Miller is still involved, and if the events they're sponsoring are still so controversial". When you get more than you bargained for, it's okay to take a deep breath. It's even okay to sleep on it.

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

Yes. It's called "Paradise Lost" which is actually a poem by (poop, I can't remember the guys name), was a journalist for the Cinncinatti Plains Dealer, Paul Newmans uncle, name escapes me.

Ok, "Paradise Almost Lost" Joseph Newman.

re: #111 jcm

It would be a few aluminum tubes with would look like branches and an engine block would look like a rock, you'd have to be virtually standing on it to tell what it had been.

Thanks for that jcm...excellent point.

They're good at finding lost planes and it only took 44 years to find that plane? Sounds like a government job for life program.

Christian the Lion - the full story

/much better luck than Roy had

re: #128 realwest

HEY NAOM! Good on you my friend - you're waaay too valuable a person to lose simply cause you didn't wear your helmet!

I am not. ;P

Went on a ride later in the day, sans helmet. Because of traffic, I rarely exceeded 20 mph, and was at one time relegated to 11mph because some asshole thought it was okay to idle around Lake Harriet. I bitched him out for sightseeing when gas is $4 a gallon - as he finally let me pass. Then he pulled up on me at the next stoplight, and I nearly got off my scoot.

The irony of it all was his "Start Seeing Motorcycles" bumper sticker.

re: #114 jorline Yeah - I've been in this hear bidness for 14 years and, uh, sooner or later we'll find 'em, so don't pay the insurance whatever you do! LOL!

re: #138 Cartman

Not to nitpick, but the Cinci paper is The Enquirer and the Cleveland paper is The Plain Dealer. For what it's worth.

Yea, your right. I was trying to pull this stuff out of the recesses of my brian. And the poem was "Paradise Almost Lost" by Joseph Newman of the Cleveland Plains Dealer.

re: #132 Bobibutu

More to the point, Bobi, by holding our outcry we make ourselves accomplices after the fact! We assume part of the guilt because we've chosen silence when approbation was required!

Summersong said:
"it's okay to take a deep breath. It's even okay to sleep on it."

But we're waiting for you to post them, c'mon, what's taking so long?

re: #146 Walter L. Newton

Found a performance on Youtube:

re: #113 zombie

OK, the vote is in:

Publish, but with blurred/unblurred photos! And a warning!

May the force be with you zombie.

re: #142 jorline

Thanks for that jcm...excellent point.

They're good at finding lost planes and it only took 44 years to find that plane? Sounds like a government job for life program.

Up here in the Northwest a plane will go into the trees and be gone. Years later a hiker or hunter, usually a hunter (hikers stay on trails) will stumble on it.

re: #129 Carridine

Its not the homosexuality that is repugnant here, its the profligate disrespect for PUBLIC behaviour, and the shameless display of easy familiarity and unchaste attitudes.

Thanks Carridine, that nailed what really bugs me about this and FSF. It's the public display of it all. While I've got a hedonistic streak, I am disturbed by the display of it where it is in the face of those that are too young or do not want to see it.

re: #147 Carridine

More to the point, Bobi, by holding our outcry we make ourselves accomplices after the fact! We assume part of the guilt because we've chosen silence when approbation was required!

Absofrigginlutely!

re: #126 Walter L. Newton

It's called "Paradise Lost" which is actually a poem by (poop, I can't remember the guys name)

Er... you mean John Milton? Or are you talking about a modern "Paradise Lost"?

re: #113 zombie

Yikes. After looking at the FSF report. Sicksicksick.

/leading a sheltered life, i guess.

re: #124 Occasional Reader Absolutely correct, O.R.

re: #1 zombie

I have known you for a long time now and everything you have done has been A+. You have to report what you see if the photo’s are XXX it was not you doing it only you reporting it.

re: #144 Noam Sayin'

I am not. ;P

Went on a ride later in the day, sans helmet. Because of traffic, I rarely exceeded 20 mph, and was at one time relegated to 11mph because some asshole thought it was okay to idle around Lake Harriet. I bitched him out for sightseeing when gas is $4 a gallon - as he finally let me pass. Then he pulled up on me at the next stoplight, and I nearly got off my scoot.

The irony of it all was his "Start Seeing Motorcycles" bumper sticker.

Strange, the .44 magnum revolver I carried back in the day usually made me real easy to see.

Now that AZ has CCW permits, between the obvious .44 there is alway the Glock 27 thy don't see....

Zombie, I am going with JCMs #33 suggestion in addition to a treatment just like the original Folsem article. Make sure the CEO knows about the blog posting and it's reach.

re: #152 CyanSnowHawk

Bobibutu and I are with you on this, Cyan!

'You wanna bump uglies? DO IT IN PRIVATE! Period."

re: #154 Occasional Reader

Modern

Paradise Almost Lost by Joseph Newman, a poem cover by Biff Rose as a sing/speak poem, with Biff on piano. I'm uploading it to my webspace right now. Link coming. Cute poem about the first sexual encounter.

re: #159 howyadoin

Zombie, I am going with JCMs #33 suggestion in addition to a treatment just like the original Folsem article. Make sure the CEO knows about the blog posting and it's reach.

A link to at the bottom to Miller's contact.

re: #161 Walter L. Newton

Here are the words:
[Link: listserv.arizona.edu...]

Here is a monky that has some problems http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdXJNosr5YE

re: #127 Killgore Trout
I'm in your thoughts tonight? What, have you seen my most recent x-rays or something?!
I appreciate the kind thoughts my friend, but I do have ONE littlebittyquestion: to whom do atheists pray?!
Peace bro'.

Like all primates, I require sleep. Good night.

re: #1 zombie

Aw, crap. I had to work today.
Working weekends makes you miss all the good stuff.
Or was this one strictly gay, as opposed to the Folsom Street Fair?

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Ok, got it uploaded.

Paradise Almost Lost by Joseph Newman, a poem cover by Biff Rose as a sing/speak poem, with Biff on piano.

re: #159 howyadoin

Zombie, I am going with JCMs #33 suggestion in addition to a treatment just like the original Folsem article. Make sure the CEO knows about the blog posting and it's reach.

And the County Supervisors and Town Council ... etc.

re: #169 Bobibutu

And the County Supervisors and Town Council ... etc.

I think they participate!

re: #165 realwest

Hey Real.. start of week 2. life is good

re: #119 Racer X

Shake it, baby.

re: #1 zombie

Go for it. Instead of blurring the image, use Obama's face to cover the offending bits. It'll be accurate. He's a dick and an ass.

re: #135 realwest

Yep!
How you doing tonight stevieray? Well, I hope!

Doing good, real. Got together with my family to celebrate a few birthdays, and everyone had a good time.

How are you holding out?

re: #149 jaunte

Found a performance on Youtube:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

I don't know who that guy is. I have a lot of video of him doing that. For a matter of fact, I have a one hour video produced in 2000 with live performances of many of his more popular songs and comedy bits.

And I put out a CD in 2000 from a house concert I produced in Denver.

re: #173 HelloDare

Go for it. Instead of blurring the image, use Obama's face to cover the offending bits. It'll be accurate. He's a dick and an ass.

ROFLMAO!

re: #158 Van Helsing

Strange, the .44 magnum revolver I carried back in the day usually made me real easy to see.

Now that AZ has CCW permits, between the obvious .44 there is alway the Glock 27 thy don't see....

Funny thing. There are sometimes - sometimes - drivers who like to intimidate people on scooters by tailgating them. I've had this happen to me several times and have seen it with other scoot drivers on occasion. There's some stigma with scooter drivers, I guess. You'd never see someone intentially pulling up to a Harley rider, or any other motorcycle for that matter. But I see it with scooter drivers.

Those are the times I'd like to unholster a pistol and say, "I said, back off!"

Alas, you're not allowed to do that in Minnesota.

re: #58 Abu Al-Poopypants

Zombie, I'd vote for publishing it, but instead of blurring use Miller logos the way that black rectangles would normally get used.

I second

re: #173 HelloDare

Go for it. Instead of blurring the image, use Obama's face to cover the offending bits. It'll be accurate. He's a dick and an ass.

ding ding...LMAO

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

Thanks for putting that one up too; haven't heard it in a good while.
Save it for the next ID thread background music.

re: #173 HelloDare

Go for it. Instead of blurring the image, use Obama's face to cover the offending bits. It'll be accurate. He's a dick and an ass.

Then get a mybarackobama account and..............

re: #170 jcm

I think they participate!

Probably and it's way past time for some sunshine!

re: #172 MandyManners

Shake it, Baby. Indeed.

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

I have a lot of video of him doing that. For a matter of fact, I have a one hour video produced in 2000 with live performances of many of his more popular songs and comedy bits.
And I put out a CD in 2000 from a house concert I produced in Denver.

Him being Biff? I'd enjoy seeing that.

re: #181 jaunte

Thanks for putting that one up too; haven't heard it in a good while.
Save it for the next ID thread background music.

You are welcome. If you need any Biff Rose, contact me. You have my email address. I have a lot of stuff, some that was never published publicly.

Speaking of riding, it was a picture-perfect day here to hit the road. I had the Harley over 65 MPH for the first time, on a 3 mile stretch of backroad that's straight as an arrow. I backed off the throttle when I was closing in on 90. A true rush, it was. ;)

re: #182 jcm

Then get a mybarackobama account and..............

and............buy a matching bobblehead.

re: #186 Walter L. Newton

Thanks very much, I'll do that.

re: #187 Cartman

Were you wearing your helmet?

re: #1 zombie

Use copies of Obama's face to cover the naughty bits.

OK Zombie here is a possible lead. Miller Beer is distributed in San Fransisco by

Feb 9, 2005 - Golden Brands Beverage Distributors, a San Francisco Coors/Miller distributor has been sold to DBI Beverage Distributors of Nashville, Tennessee.

and then there is this out there..

DBI Beverage is owned by David Ingram, Chairman and President of Ingram Entertainment Inc., a national distributor of home entertainment products including DVDs, prerecorded videocassettes, and video games.

and this..

Twenty years ago, distributors were everywhere, the link between retail and publishing. Their power was immense. But in the age of direct distribution, they’ve been vastly reduced in numbers, and they don’t hold nearly as much sway. Only the most efficient survive, and some of them may not be here forever.

Ingram Entertainment is one of the country’s largest wholesalers of console games, supplying around 3,000 outlets a week. Bob Geistman, senior vice president interactive media and business development, says distributors can only make profits if they take care of the details.

"Our business is growing and our profits are growing but every day we have to struggle to figure out how to make money. Some of my competitors, I would say, are about to go bust."

So maybe the SF Miller Beer distributor has helped keep the mothership (with a failed business case) back home in TN afloat by selling pron videos promoted in those displays of public affection you have chronicled. A theory anyway. Why would Miller Beer want any part of that crap? They don't. I'm guessing its the Distributor.

re: #172 MandyManners

Shake it, baby.

BOING!

LOL!

re: #173 HelloDare

Dang, GMTA.

re: #185 jaunte

Him being Biff? I'd enjoy seeing that.

Yes. Footage of everything from him sitting around my house talking, playing piano, a 2 night concert I produced in Denver, a few coffee houses in Boulder and even walking on the street doing drive-by comedy on anyone that would stop and put up with him. I may be able to upload the video. I'll have to check how much space I need and all that other tech stuff. It's an hour long, done by a friend of mine that owns a video production business.

re: #190 Noam Sayin'

Yep. It's the law here, for the first-year licensee. I don't wanna push my luck. ;)

re: #184 SummerSong

Shake it, Baby. Indeed.

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

WTF was that?

re: #189 jaunte

Thanks very much, I'll do that.

Check YouTube. I just noticed some clips from my video up there. Poop, there goes the royalties.

re: #171 BBev *tapping foot* but not good enough for an e-mail, hmmm?!
LOL!

re: #72 Abu Al-Poopypants

You know the whole PRESIDENT-AS-CHIMP thing has been such a knee-slapper the past 8 years, I think it would be such a hoot if we keep it going after 01-20-2009. How about it? That'd be OK, right? Right?

President McCainChimpHitler?

re: #196 Cartman

Yep. It's the law here, for the first-year licensee. I don't wanna push my luck. ;)

I won't ride a bike, I have the need for speed. I had a Trans Am GT. I got it to 155 racing an Iroc down Rt 495 and I had more to go. I had a Cordoba clocked at 165 so a bike for me would not be a good thing

re: #191 itellu3times

Use copies of Obama's face to cover the naughty bits.

Now that was funny.re: #196 Cartman

Yep. It's the law here, for the first-year licensee. I don't wanna push my luck. ;)

Yeah, you wouldn't want to break the law or nuthin'.

re: #174 stevieray I'm holding out ok, thanks.
Glad to see you had a good time with your family!

I had no idea breaking the sound barrier produces visual effects.

re: #199 realwest

*tapping foot* but not good enough for an e-mail, hmmm?!
LOL!

I know and I had time today to do it, :-(

re: #184 SummerSong

Shake it, Baby. Indeed.

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Like a Polaroid™ Picture.

Acoustic...

re: #178 Noam Sayin' I've actually seen some drivers pull up next to a motorcycle and sorta lean their car towards 'em.
Made me glad I had my cellphone, cause about 25 miles later I saw that car pulled over by a Trooper!
Yes, I did report the S.O.B.

re: #201 BBev

Trust me, when you start pushing 100 on a two-wheeled open vehicle, you'll feel like you're doing every bit of 155 in a car.

re: #178 Noam Sayin'
Noam - Please check [Link: ellegon.com...]

He writes great fiction, too (IMAO).

Open carry WILL make people pay attention, but when you check your weapon at a traffic control device to ensure it is 'safe', that will wake 'em up too.

re: #195 Walter L. Newton

Start with a few 3-Minute GOOD STUFF excerpts, Walt. Only.

SAB Miller

re: #204 MandyManners

I had no idea breaking the sound barrier produces visual effects.

The details!
Cool F-4 pic for plane buffs.

re: #187 Cartman
Hey my friend - I trust you WERE wearing your helmet and leathers?!

G'nite all

re: #213 realwest

Helmet and leather vest. Too dang hot for the rest of the proper gear!

You know what would be a funny thing to have in a pet store? (I guess you could have it in any store, but a pet store would be best)

Have an empty cage with the door hanging wide open with a big sign on top that says: "WARNING: DO NOT LET THE FLESH EATING VAMPIRE MONKEY OUT OF CAGE!"

Then watch the look on people's faces when they read the sign.

Be a good youtube video.

re: #208 Cartman

Ever been doin' 75mph on a 1200 Sportster and have a semi blow by you doin
85?
Makes life seem very short.

re: #210 Carridine

Start with a few 3-Minute GOOD STUFF excerpts, Walt. Only.

I found an excerpt of him doing Hello Dolphins from the video I produced.

re: #208 Cartman

Trust me, when you start pushing 100 on a two-wheeled open vehicle, you'll feel like you're doing every bit of 155 in a car.

Ya I know I was on the back of one doing 135. It was not fun

re: #197 MandyManners

Just a weird video of a Tupac tune. "Shake it, baby" is a well known verse of the song and since it's about California...well, we know all about shakin'.

re: #209 van helsing

Noam - Please check [Link: ellegon.com...]

He writes great fiction, too (IMAO).

Open carry WILL make people pay attention, but when you check your weapon at a traffic control device to ensure it is 'safe', that will wake 'em up too.

One comment I read on open carry.

Open carry protects only the carrier, bad guys will leave that person alone.
Concealed carry protects everyone, bad guys don't know who to leave alone.

In WA State 1 in 25 has a CPL (Concealed Pistol License). The bad guys do think about it.

re: #207 realwest

Open carry in AZ was a great deterent for bad behavior from folks in cars.

At least 15 years ago it was.

re: #211 Thanos

SAB Miller

I was wondering why Miller tasted like African monkey piss lately...lol

re: #204 MandyManners

Cool pics.

Ironic, though. A series of pics of jets going supersonic, yet no sound.

Does the B2 do supersonic?

Carridine

And here is Molly from the same video. I tell you, you can't keep anything off of YouTube. We sold only about 300 copies of this DVD (and VHS), and it cost us about 6000 to put together.

re: #216 docremulac You have a, um, sorta unusual sense of humor - anyone ever tell you that?!

re: #217 IslandLibertarian

I've not had that experience yet, but I'm well aware that my Sporty is not as stable as the bigger Harleys. I've white-knucled 'er on a couple of really windy days already.

re: #221 jcm

Indeed they do. My brothers in WA will attest to that.

Open is good for when you're on the road and some nit feels like they want to share their bad day.

If they see a weapon, most realize that their bad day could get much worse.

re: #224 Noam Sayin'

Does the B2 do supersonic?

Negatory.

Though we might already have a secret successor bomber that does. Shh.

pimf - knuckled

re: #218 Walter L. Newton

I'll comment when I return, Walt, but I'm outta here as C, back as K.

I LIKE his style... "...hopelessly middle-class!" Mweh!

re: #224 Noam Sayin'

Cool pics.

Ironic, though. A series of pics of jets going supersonic, yet no sound.

Does the B2 do supersonic?

Nope.
Speed: High subsonic

Lots of heat and noise with going supersonic.

F-22 has supercruise, no afterburner supersonic.

re: #224 Noam Sayin'

Does the B2 do supersonic?

Nope.

re: #209 van helsing

Never heard of Joel Rosenberg until about a week or so ago. He was in a Powerline forum discussing civilian use of firearms to protect other civilians, about a week after that 'beat-down' incident at Valley Fair earlier this month.

Are you a Minnesotan?

re: #226 realwest

You have a, um, sorta unusual sense of humor - anyone ever tell you that?!

ROFLMAO...damn RW

re: #210 Carridine Hey my friend - do y'all remember when you sent me your version of "Find The Cost of Freedom"?
I really liked it a lot - but I now seem to have inadvertenly lost it or deleted it - any chance you could send it to me again?
I'd be most appreciative!

F-22 Raptor at Farnborough Airshow 2008

re: #226 realwest

"re: #216 docremulac You have a, um, sorta unusual sense of humor - anyone ever tell you that?!"

All the time.

:)

re: #228 van helsing

Indeed they do. My brothers in WA will attest to that.

Open is good for when you're on the road and some nit feels like they want to share their bad day.

If they see a weapon, most realize that their bad day could get much worse.

Open carry needs two things, enough people to do it so that there's always someone around with a weapon. Second is non-gun types to be comfortable with open carry. Lot of people get real nervous around guns.

re: #229 itellu3times

re: #233 Racer X

Check out Mandy's link in #204. I love the pics, but didn't think the B2 was capable of supersonic.

F-22 has supercruise, no afterburner supersonic.

American ingenuity - gotta love it!

Evening all, I see the open thread has defaulted to two of our favorite topics. Guns and military equipment.

/cool supersonic pics you found Mandy.

re: #238 docremulac
I'll bet they do!
;')

re: #239 jcm

I truly prefer concealed carry. I guess I consider my sidearm as a last resort, surprise trump card. I hope I never, ever have to use it for that purpose.

re: #242 BlueCanuck

Evening all, I see the open thread has defaulted to two of our favorite topics. Guns and military equipment.

Only because I cannot convince anyone to dissect the underlying meanings in this week's Mary Worth.

/

re: #241 Bobibutu

F-22 has supercruise, no afterburner supersonic.

American ingenuity - gotta love it!

On of my favorites.

re: #234 Noam Sayin'

Never heard of Joel Rosenberg until about a week or so ago. He was in a Powerline forum discussing civilian use of firearms to protect other civilians, about a week after that 'beat-down' incident at Valley Fair earlier this month.

Are you a Minnesotan?

No. Phoenician - desert rat.

I first read one his books about 17 years ago. Followed the Guardian of the Flame series an one day did search for him on-line. Discovered the rest at that point. Pay special attention to his editorial re: the missing kitchen knife.

I've always been a firm believer that when seconds cound, the police are only minutes away.

The 'always armed, always vigilant' thing has caused some interesting conversations, but never cost me any friends.

re: #237 Racer X

F-22 Raptor at Farnborough Airshow 2008

WOW...unbelievable.

re: #1 zombie

This may not help, since I share none of the fallout, but I recommend your first option (blurred/unblurred versions).

My reasoning is similar to previous posts.

You are merely reporting, with many photographs, a public event in San Francisco. If anyone finds the material objectionable, and it sounds like many will, this isn’t your fault.

If any one is offended, then perhaps a question or two to the SF Mayor’s Office and to the SF Chronicle and other news services is in order; is this normal for SF? If "Yes", then will this event be reported? "No"? Then why was this event allowed to take place? Who was arrested?

re: #237 Racer X

That plane is amazing. I'm no aerodynamics expert. But some of the shit that thing will do stupifies me.

re: #239 jcm Well there could be a reason for that: there are, I believe, a number of wannbe Wild Bill Hicock's out there and would draw down when a situation didn't warrant it.
Having said that, however, if I had a permit to carry in the open I would do it.
Maybe.

And Obama's bus, I dont believe it!

re: #250 Noam Sayin'

That plane is amazing. I'm no aerodynamics expert. But some of the shit that thing will do stupifies me.

Vectored Thrust.

re: #239 jcm

Open carry needs two things, enough people to do it so that there's always someone around with a weapon. Second is non-gun types to be comfortable with open carry. Lot of people get real nervous around guns.

My brother and sister inlaw did not like the fact that I carried a gun inside there home. I had no problem with it and still don't. If you don't like it don't invite me over!

re: #246 jcm

On of my favorites.

Makes the F-104 look like an Edsel.

I'll bet Obama doesn't even like Cheezy Poofs.....

....and he wants to be our next president!

re: #252 A Kiwi Infidel

Hell, he could throw the entire country under that sucker!

re: #244 Cartman

I truly prefer concealed carry. I guess I consider my sidearm as a last resort, surprise trump card. I hope I never, ever have to use it for that purpose.

Generally, I'm with you. I found that when I was common biker trash that people saw the weapon more than they saw me on the bike.

I'd much prefer that the goblins always wonder if someone is armed and ready to ruin their day.

re: #257 Cartman

Hell, he could throw the entire country under that sucker!

Exactly, cremated on the way out the back, making more room for the next victims being chucked under from the front.

re: #246 jcm

On of my favorites.

I have an acquaintance whose daughter just married an A-10 pilot. She had no idea what an A-10 was, so I sent emailed her that exact link

She's still not sure what it is.

re: #215 Cartman

Helmet and leather vest. Too dang hot for the rest of the proper gear!

I had mine at 90 halfway across Colorado and all the way across Kansas on the way to Texas a couple of years ago.

After a while, 90 seems like 70 in the car. (Gotta keep an eye out for the law though). Had some guy right on my butt for quite a while just outside of KC on another trip. Just kept goosing the throttle to get ahead of him then letting him catch up. He never did pass me.... ;>)

re: #253 jcm

Vectored Thrust.

Wectored trust - vas Russian inwention. Thus spake Mr. Chekov.

If you carry concealed, then carry concealed. The gun should never be seen, not an outline, not a sound either.

re: #246 jcm

On of my favorites.

Wart Hogs - yeah! Finally we built a carrier around a weapon vs hanging a weapon on a carrier.

re: #260 Noam Sayin'