Who and why?

Losing Turkey to the Islamists would be a major set back.

it is time to take the ROP by the horns.

Ho frickin' hum.
Nothing these perverse idiots do matters to me a whit.
It is they who shall pay the price for their intransigence, not I.

Time for the Army to clean house.

I think it's the Kurds again......
Turkish Officials Link Bombings To Rebel Kurds

Turkish officials suggested Monday that Kurdish militants were the main suspects in bomb blasts that killed 17 people in a crowded square, with Turkey's prime minister saying it could be a reprisal for air raids on guerrilla positions in northern Iraq.

The rebel Kurdistan Worker's Party, or PKK, immediately denied involvement and attributed Sunday night's attack to "dark forces," an apparent reference to hardline Turkish nationalists who allegedly seek to foment chaos in order to strengthen the political influence of the military.

They've done this crap before.

I feel like there have been a lot of these in the last couple of weeks. Why is it that when terrorist attacks occur in middle-eastern or asian countries, the MSM doesn't give a rats ass... when it happens in Britain, or Spain, some other western country, its HUGE news.

I feel like even the Islamist threats against the Beijing Olympics have been largely down-played and muted.

Is Turkey a full-fledged EU member? What happens to the EU if they go Islamist?

They already have?

an islamist leaning government

Wow -- agree with JCM - Losing Turkey would be huge.

terrible thing. that being said, kiss entrance into the EU good bye turkey, at least for the forseeable future...as in a couple of decades if then it might be reconsidered.

re: #8 Golem Akbar

Is Turkey a full-fledged EU member? What happens to the EU if they go Islamist?

Not yet- but rampant dhimmitude guarantees that they will be members when and if they go Islamist.

re: #5 Peacekeeper

Time for the Army to clean house.

Yes, if they're not already too infested with islamofascist zealots to pull it off.

re: #9 soccerdad

They already have?

Wow -- agree with JCM - Losing Turkey would be huge.

Turkey's been a great friend to America and Israel, too. It's been pro-West for decades. It's loss would be terrible.

So many terrorist organizations, they have to wait to see who takes responsibility. My money is on the Islamists, by virtue of probabilities.

re: #7 rlevitin

I feel like there have been a lot of these in the last couple of weeks. Why is it that when terrorist attacks occur in middle-eastern or asian countries, the MSM doesn't give a rats ass... when it happens in Britain, or Spain, some other western country, its HUGE news.

I feel like even the Islamist threats against the Beijing Olympics have been largely down-played and muted.

Don't you mean ALLEGED terrorist attacks?/

re: #7 rlevitin

I feel like even the Islamist threats against the Beijing Olympics have been largely down-played and muted.

The Chinese are stifling anything that makes them look bad now. They could have a large bomb go off in major city and try to stifle the news coverage of it.

And US creationists have been collaborating with the anti-Kemalist Islamists in Turkey, pushing creationism into Turkish schools and pushing out science.

Doing their part to usher in the Dark Ages.

re: #5 Peacekeeper

Time for the Army to clean house.

Agree...forget the Kurds, clean up the Islamist.

Ataturk's biggest achievement back in the 1920s was to pry Turkey away from Islamic fundamentalism, and to turn it towards the West. He banned the wearing of the fez, a Muslim religious symbol, and mandated use of the Roman alphabet. Turks began wearing western clothing.

For Turkey to turn back to the days before Ataturk (as seems to be occurring, based in part upon the adoption of creationism in their public schools) is a huge step backwards into a medieval, pre-scientific past.

re: #6 Killgore Trout

Good point.

Who ever it is, it's destabilizing.
The result is not good any way you cut it.

The Islamists have plenty of reasons to bomb stuff in Turkey to cow the secularists. The Turkish government has plenty of reasons to blame the Kurds - they're the region's key punching bag (behind Israel of course).

And the truth is likely somewhere in between. It's most likely the Islamists who want to impose their will on Turkey, though you simply can't exclude the possibility that the PKK was involved.

Offsetting that is the fact that the Kurds were hit hard today in Kirkuk, where at least 50 were murdered and 300+ injured when female suicide bombers blew themselves up at a Shi'ite gathering in Baghdad and bombs went off at a Kurdish rally in Kirkuk.

Suicide bombers struck a Shiite pilgrimage in Baghdad and a Kurdish protest rally in northern Iraq on Monday, killing at least 57 people and wounding nearly 300, police said.

Three female suicide bombers blew their explosive vests in the middle of pilgrims in Baghdad, moments after a roadside bomb attack, killing at least 32 people and wounding 102, Iraqi officials said.

In the oil-rich northern city of Kirkuk, 25 people were killed and 185 wounded when a blast tore through a crowd of Kurds protesting a draft provincial elections law, officials said.

Lots of different motives involved, but the common thread is the use of bombs and suicide bombers to impose their will on everyone else.

The Pakistani government's claim that PKK is responsible is, well, non-crazy, at least.

re: #17 Charles

For American creationists to help Muslim extremists drive science out of Turkish public schools is demonic. They're aiding and abetting the enemies of our nation.

If I'm not mistaken, some of the extremist activity in Turkey right now is being done by secularists. It's complicated.

They weren't suicide bombings, were they? If they were suicide bombings, I'd definately think Islamists. Otherwise, I'd think PKK.

re: #17 Charles

And US creationists have been collaborating with the anti-Kemalist Islamists in Turkey, pushing creationism into Turkish schools and pushing out science.
Doing their part to usher in the Dark Ages.

If true, this is political dynamite.

re: #2 jcm

Losing Turkey to the Islamists would be a major set back.

Very true. Strategically, Turkey has always been a problem for Europe, in that it sits astride one of the natural choke points for invasion, the Dardanelles. While we think in terms of terrorism today, in purely conventional military terms, whoever control Turkey controls access to the Black Sea, and has the ability to move land forces from the east into the Balkans, or from the west into the central Mideast, almost at will. This was why the British were willing to take the (ultimately unwise) risk of Gallipoli in WW 1, and why the Allies breathed a sigh of relief when the Kemalists decided to remain largely neutral in WW 2. Although they continued to have their own private "disagreement" with the USSR over exactly who owned the oil fields in Bessarabia right through the latter; the Turks backed the Romanians on that subject. Which, coincidentally, put them in bed with...Guess Who?

Turkey becoming a "central front" in the war against Islamism would not be good for our side. The question is, is it already happening?

My gut instinct is, unfortunately, that it is.

cheers

eon

re: #27 sparrowlake

If true, this is political dynamite.

It's true.

re: #9 soccerdad

They already have?

Wow -- agree with JCM - Losing Turkey would be huge.

It would affect Thanksgiving dinners everywhere!
/

re: #25 buzzsawmonkey

More on Ataturk here: [Link: www.mrdowling.com...]

An excerpt: "Kemal was convinced that Turkey needed to become a modern nation. He believed that if the Turkish people continued to follow their traditions, they would again be attacked by another western power. The popular Kemal often traveled the countryside to encourage the people "Let science and new ideas come in freely," he often said. "If you don't, they will devour you." Greece attacked Turkey in 1921 and 1922, but Kemal led the Turks to victory. By the mid 1920s, the Turkish leader began a modernization program in Turkey:

* Kemal said that in a modern nation, men and women must be equal. He ordered that girls be allowed to attend school. Kemal also gave women the right to vote and take jobs in business and government.
* Kemal set aside religious law and established a western system of justice. Turkey had been governed by Shariah until Kemal set up a legal structure that was similar European nations. He also forbid men from taking more than one wife, although the practice of polygamy is allowed by the Quran. Kemal forbade the Turkish people to wear fezzes, veils, or other traditional Turkish clothing. The fez is a tasseled, cone shaped traditional hat. Many Muslims men wore fezzes so they could touch their forehead to the ground when they prayed. "The people of the Turkish republic," Kemal said in 1919, "must prove that they are civilized by the way they appear." And that, he explained, meant boots and shoes, trousers, shirt, and tie, jacket and vest. "And to complete these, a cover with a brim on our heads. I want to make this clear. This head covering is called a hat." Turks who continued to wear traditional clothing were arrested and imprisoned.
* Kemal introduced a western alphabet and ordered all newspapers, books, and street signs printed in the new script. Kemel believed the difficulty of the Arabic script his nation used led to illiteracy in Turkey and was difficult for merchants and traders from other nations to learn. He traveled the Turkish countryside with a blackboard and chalk to personally explain how the letters should be pronounced. Many of the people Ataturk personally taught had never before held a pencil or a piece of chalk.
* Kemal decreed that everyone must have a surname, or family name. In 1934, the Turkish assembly gave Mustafa Kemal the name Ataturk, or “Father of the Turks.”"

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I think it's the Kurds again......
Turkish Officials Link Bombings To Rebel Kurds

They've done this crap before.

Spain blamed the Basques for Madrid.

We shall see.

re: #12 sparrowlake

Yes, if they're not already too infested with islamofascist zealots to pull it off.

That is the point. The Turkish Army has defended the Secularist state before, but have they been compromised?
After the fall of the Shah in Iran, Senior military officers were subverted by Islamist junior officers who had their superiors executed.

Page One

Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life.
Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.

Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges.

When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well.
Here's how it works.

As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:

United States -- Muslim 0.6%
Australia -- Muslim 1.5%
Canada -- Muslim 1.9%
China -- Muslim 1.8%
Italy -- Muslim 1.5%
Norway -- Muslim 1.8%
At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:

Denmark -- Muslim 2%
Germany -- Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom -- Muslim 2.7%
Spain -- Muslim 4%
Thailand -- Muslim 4.6%
From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves -- along with threats for failure to comply. This is occurring in:

France -- Muslim 8%
Philippines -- Muslim 5%
Sweden -- Muslim 5%
Switzerland -- Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands -- Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago -- Muslim 5.8%

At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law. The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world.
When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions. In Paris , we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non-Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:

Guyana -- Muslim 10%
India -- Muslim 13.4%
Israel -- Muslim 16%
Kenya -- Muslim 10%
Russia -- Muslim 15%
After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:

Ethiopia -- Muslim 32.8%

re: #1 Peacekeeper

Who and why?

The government has tried blaming the PKK, but the PKK says they had nothing to do with them.

This was interesting:

The ruling Justice and Development party (AKP) faces possible closure by the constitutional court for alleged anti-secularism in a hearing that begins today. Separately, 86 militant secularists were indicted last week for allegedly plotting to unseat the AKP in a violent coup.

If the court ruling goes against the AKP, and the AKP tries to ignore the ruling, civil war could break out.

Page 2

At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:

Bosnia -- Muslim 40%
Chad -- Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon -- Muslim 59.7%

From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:

Albania -- Muslim 70%
Malaysia -- Muslim 60.4%
Qatar -- Muslim 77.5%
Sudan -- Muslim 70%
After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:

Bangladesh -- Muslim 83%
Egypt -- Muslim 90%
Gaza -- Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia -- Muslim 86.1%
Iran -- Muslim 98%
Iraq -- Muslim 97%
Jordan -- Muslim 92%
Morocco -- Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan -- Muslim 97%
Palestine -- Muslim 99%
Syria -- Muslim 90%
Tajikistan -- Muslim 90%
Turkey -- Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates -- Muslim 96%
100% will usher in the peace of 'Dar-es-Salaam' -- the Islamic House of Peace. Here there's supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:

Afghanistan -- Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia -- Muslim 100%
Somalia -- Muslim 100%
Yemen -- Muslim 100%

Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.

'Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. -- Leon Uris, 'The Haj'

It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos. There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death. Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate.

Today's 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world's population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world's population by the end of this century.

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond's book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat

re: #28 eon

Turkey becoming a "central front" in the war against Islamism would not be good for our side. The question is, is it already happening?

I think we're a long way from seeing a true Islamist takeover of Turkey. I don't see it happening, really. Were they to become strong enough to mount any real attempt, the Turkish Army would step in and squash them like bugs.

re: #31 quickjustice

Of course, Kemal Ataturk had his, ah, downside, too. Just ask the Armenians.

re: #21 lawhawk

Lots of different motives involved, but the common thread is the use of bombs and suicide bombers to impose their will on everyone else.

It's not directly to impose their will, it's to foment chaos, from which they believe they will benefit. Just sayin'.

Have been reading Barbara Tuchman's "The Proud Tower", including about the Anarchists circa 1900, one of which killed Pres. McKinley. Very like jihadists. McKinley had done nothing wrong in particular, he was just the president, a leader "of a corrupt society". Many other assassinations, up to and including one Archduke Ferdinand. The Anarchists do NOT seem to have had any direct links to Islam, at least not in this book, but it does make one to wonder.

The Turkish government says they suspect Kurdish rebels, which is possible. But the government is Islamist so their objectivity is, uh, questionable.

Guess those Buddhists are at it again.....

re: #34 kansas

Sole Euro bright spot seems to be Denmark at this point.

re: #36 kansas

scary shit

re: #39 itellu3times

Anarchists Unite!

re: #38 Occasional Reader

I don't know whether Ataturk was directly involved, but didn't the Turkish massacres of Armenians occur before the First World War, and not afterward?

re: #37 Occasional Reader

I think we're a long way from seeing a true Islamist takeover of Turkey. I don't see it happening, really. Were they to become strong enough to mount any real attempt, the Turkish Army would step in and squash them like bugs.

20 years ago that would have been true. But the Islamists are now playing a game of inches, and it's been very successful. The ability of the Turkish military to take action against Islamists is diminishing.

re: #4 Capitalist Tool

Ho frickin' hum.
Nothing these perverse idiots do matters to me a whit.
It is they who shall pay the price for their intransigence, not I.

* * *
Here's one reason to care. Turkey's supposedly a NATO member. BUT, WE (our troops) paid a high price for Turkey's islamist government keeping US troops from invading Iraq via Turkey in 2003.

So, yes, we paid for islamist intransigence as you say. We could have wrapped up Iraq years ago had Turkey HELPED, not hindered, our fight in Iraq.

re: #46 Charles

But the Islamists are now playing a game of inches

True, except they call it a game of royale with cheese. Because of the metric system.

re: #7 rlevitin

I feel like there have been a lot of these in the last couple of weeks. Why is it that when terrorist attacks occur in middle-eastern or asian countries, the MSM doesn't give a rats ass... when it happens in Britain, or Spain, some other western country, its HUGE news.

I feel like even the Islamist threats against the Beijing Olympics have been largely down-played and muted.

* * *
China lives in the danger zone, bordering Kashmir & Jammu where jihadis riot.

China should get on board in this fight in Northern Pakistan, their former client. China could help clean up Afghanistan and close off drug trade routes the Taliban probably uses to transport poppy.

re: #37 Occasional Reader

I think we're a long way from seeing a true Islamist takeover of Turkey. I don't see it happening, really. Were they to become strong enough to mount any real attempt, the Turkish Army would step in and squash them like bugs.

I'm less concerned about any sort of violent takeover that the Turkish Army could legitimately oppose, and more about a societal "movement" style takeover as we have seen in other formerly "friendly" (or at least safely neutral) Muslim-majority countries. Egypt comes to mind as an example.

I'd prefer not to wake up one morning and find someone at the Hagia Sofia Mosque proclaiming a new Islamist State of Turkey after winning an election.

cheers

eon

re: #13 Golem Akbar

Turkey's been a great friend to America and Israel, too. It's been pro-West for decades. It's loss would be terrible.

* * *
Turkey let us down by refusing US troops access into Northern Iraq in 2003.

Turkey stunk against our troops.

re: #45 quickjustice

I don't know whether Ataturk was directly involved, but didn't the Turkish massacres of Armenians occur before the First World War, and not afterward?

It occurred during, and after WWI. Kemal Ataturk batted cleanup.

re: #29 Charles

It's true.

Holy shit./

re: #40 Charles

The Turkish government says they suspect Kurdish rebels, which is possible. But the government is Islamist so their objectivity is, uh, questionable.

It can be both. The Islamists have been supporting the Islamist faction of the Kurdish separatists as a tool to use against the Army & secularists.

re: #25 buzzsawmonkey

From Ataturk to atavism in a mere 90 years.

* * *
Yeah, well,
Thank Jimmy Carter for taking us from the modernizing Shah of Iran to nucular nut Ahmedinejad & his Ayatoollahs in 3 short years, 1977-1980.

re: #46 Charles

We're talking about battles between backwards Muslims and progressive Muslims extending over decades and centuries. Ataturk pushed westernization, science, and technology for defensive reasons. He was a nationalist who saw how ignorance had impoverished Turkey, making the nation defenseless.

He was an effective military commander as well. He personally sat in a tree on the cliffs overlooking the Gallipoli (WWI) battlefield with a field telephone, directing German artillery fire on the Australian troops hitting the beachhead, with devastating effect.

His "experiment" in westernizing Turkish Muslims was successful for eighty years. Now it is faltering.

re: #36 kansas

Yes, this is scary.

We should also recognize that Turkey is trying very hard to enter the EU. At that point, these stats should take a exponential step in Europe as these Islamists flow across open borders unchecked. We should expect to see that EU nations with Muslim populations of 0-2% and from 2-5% will have an increase of Muslim EU 'citizens.' When those populations rise, so will the tensions within those nations and Europe will be that much closer to a widespread civil conflict. What's worse, is that the Euro taxpayer will be paying for all of this baggage....

re: #39 itellu3times

It's not directly to impose their will, it's to foment chaos, from which they believe they will benefit. Just sayin'.

Have been reading Barbara Tuchman's "The Proud Tower", including about the Anarchists circa 1900, one of which killed Pres. McKinley. Very like jihadists. McKinley had done nothing wrong in particular, he was just the president, a leader "of a corrupt society". Many other assassinations, up to and including one Archduke Ferdinand. The Anarchists do NOT seem to have had any direct links to Islam, at least not in this book, but it does make one to wonder.

The only actual connection is "philosophical"- namely, a common hatred of Western Civilization, driven ultimately by malignant narcissism;

We are perfect. We should, therefore, rule over all and reap the benefits thereof. Therefore, anyone who either opposes us, or simply does not acknowledge our superiority and divine right to rule, must die, both for their crime and as an example to others of the price of betrayal of their betters.

The logic is as watertight as it is insane. Megalomania is all too often its own justification for atrocity. And in the end, it usually ends up eating its own vitals- think Jonestown.

The problem is the damage done to innocents before it self-destructs.

cheers

eon

re: #50 eon

Ataturk turn Hagia Sofia, an Orthodox Christian Cathedral converted to a mosque at the time of Muslim conquest of Constantinople, into a museum, a potent symbol of westernization. Any change back to a mosque would be equally potent.

re: #47 alegrias

* * *
Here's one reason to care. Turkey's supposedly a NATO member. BUT, WE (our troops) paid a high price for Turkey's islamist government keeping US troops from invading Iraq via Turkey in 2003.

So, yes, we paid for islamist intransigence as you say. We could have wrapped up Iraq years ago had Turkey HELPED, not hindered, our fight in Iraq.

Largely true. I spoke of the general trend of Islamism.
When it affects me, I care.
Iraq affects me insofar as it is a National effort.

My point being that the Islamists and those who yield to them shall all pay the price for doing what they do.
I don't see US yielding to them. Given, CAIR, et al are chipping away...

re: #32 Ben Hur

Spain blamed the Basques for Madrid.

We shall see.

* * *
Ok, that was a wrong instant assessment, but historically, Basques bomb Spaniards every year, especially during Basque Bombing Season.

re: #29 Charles

It's true.

I sure hope that Dr. Hugh Ross isn't involved in this crap.

re: #61 alegrias

* * *
Ok, that was a wrong instant assessment, but historically, Basques bomb Spaniards every year, especially during Basque Bombing Season.

Agreed. The whole "Aznar tried to blame the Basques!" thing was essentially a smear (and it worked). The government's initial assessment that ETA was behind the bombings was rational, if erroneous. It's not like they were blaming the frickkin' Campfire Girls. And by late that evening, they had already said "we may have been wrong on that, and all avenues of inquiry are open".

re: #59 quickjustice

Ataturk turn Hagia Sofia, an Orthodox Christian Cathedral converted to a mosque at the time of Muslim conquest of Constantinople, into a museum, a potent symbol of westernization. Any change back to a mosque would be equally potent.

Exactly my point. "Reclaiming" former mosques is very big business in the Islamic world today, as signs of the fundamentalists' ongoing campaign against secular Islam as part of the jihad. The symbolism is at least as important as the substance, in this respect.

cheers

eon

re: #37 Occasional Reader

I think we're a long way from seeing a true Islamist takeover of Turkey. I don't see it happening, really. Were they to become strong enough to mount any real attempt, the Turkish Army would step in and squash them like bugs.

* * *
OR, don't be naive.

Remember how many islamist Turks live in Europe, especially Germany, and export turkish customs such as honor killings and FGM. They ARE strong, they live in Western countries, and they support their fundamentalist government back home with $ and votes.

re: #59 quickjustice

Ataturk turn Hagia Sofia, an Orthodox Christian Cathedral converted to a mosque at the time of Muslim conquest of Constantinople, into a museum, a potent symbol of westernization. Any change back to a mosque would be equally potent.

It needs to be turned back into a church. End the Islamic Occupation of Greek Orthodox Lands! Free Constantinople!

re: #6 Killgore Trout

I think it's the Kurds again......
Turkish Officials Link Bombings To Rebel Kurds

They've done this crap before.

The timing is problematic. Today, Turkey's Constitutional Court is meeting to decide if the AK party should be banned for anti-secular activities.

re: #66 Colonel Panik

It needs to be turned back into a church. End the Islamic Occupation of Greek Orthodox Lands! Free Constantinople!

A song about the name change

Ironically, Ataturk, himself a revolutionary, should theoretically support the Kurds.

When conditions compel it revolution is the legitimate right of nations.

As the largest ethnic group on earth without a homeland, straddled between 3 countries offering only different levels of hostility, it seems the Kurds have a genuine gripe.

Although I do not believe Ataturk would support indiscriminate bombing of civilian targets.

Those who pushed for Turkey's admission into the EU are strangely quite as of late.

re: #44 Capitalist Tool

Anarchists Unite!

Anarchists Untie!

re: #58 eon

The logic is as watertight as it is insane. Megalomania is all too often its own justification for atrocity. And in the end, it usually ends up eating its own vitals- think Jonestown.

There is also an almost universal idea, whether held by liberals, conservatives, jihadis, whatever, that if things are first reduced to chaos, then they *must* reform in the chosen direction.

Of course, if the government is X, and you want Y, I suppose smashing X gives you at least a *chance* to convert to Y, or so the argument might go in certain twisted minds. Anyway, the bombs let them show how earnest they are about the whole thing.
/gag

re: #71 itellu3times

Anarchists Untie!

LOL

Oh, great.
I just heard from one of my most openly gay friends that he and three of his best buddies are going on a 25+ day cruise that includes 4 days in turkey.
And Turkey is exploding with this bombing and it's first admitted gay honor killing.
I guess obliviousness only works well as a political tactic here.
I hope some one will tell them to be circumspect before the get off the love boat.

One of the things that caused the 'Awakening' in Iraq, was the perception of the average Iraqis that all Islamists had to offer was death and hate. Bombings such as this one, went a long way to creating that impression in the minds of the Iraqis.

I don't necessarily think that bombings of this sort are actually helpful to the Islamist cause. It seems to me that they likely drive away more people than they intimidate into submission.

With any luck, if Islamist based bombings continue in Turkey, it will drive people AWAY from that ideology more than towards it.

re: #65 alegrias

Remember how many islamist Turks live in Europe, especially Germany, and export turkish customs such as honor killings and FGM.

Erm, female genital mutilation is not a Turkish custom. Honor killings are rampant, yes, but FGM? Nope. Male circumcision is a "rite of passage" to be proud of, but female genital mutilation is not even something people in Turkey are aware that exists. Which is a sad state of affairs, but awareness of non-Turkish issues is a different topic.

My money is on PKK. They claimed they had nothing to do with another bombing in early January, if I'm not mistaken about the date, but when the bombers were caught they turned out to be hardcore PKK men. Bad stuff over all. It's also similar to some of their previous bomb MOs (and similar to ETA too, actually): plant a small, harmless one, detonate it to draw the curious people. When you get a sizable crowd, detonate the bigger one so that you'll have more casualties. Disgusting.

re: #6 Killgore Trout

Officials here will always "link" anything they can't explain to "suspected Kurdish nationalist forces" or some such. It's the equivalent of a doctor telling you that something he can't diagnose is a "virus."

Really, it's a weird place to bomb. Gungoren is by Aksaray, noted mainly for being overrun with illegal Russians and Africans. There aren't any conceivable "targets" there, nothing of national or religious interest, it's almost tantamount to saying "We can bomb places where it makes no sense to bomb."

mean Gene - I wouldn't worry too much about your friend. Gay rights are pretty dismal in Turkey, but the perception of homosexuality is very different when it comes to tourists and not Turks. So wonderfully hypocritical.

Besides, the tourist areas traditionally have been much, much less frequently attacked than urban populated areas - even when they were, it wasn't directed at the touristy entertainment areas but the local population itself. The cruise most likely will go down the Aegean coast and then the Mediterranean coast - as long as they stick to the coastal areas they should be fine. I mean, it's always smart to be cautious and not go into the very crowded areas, even if it means missing out on some nice clubs, but, you know, other than that, they don't need to worry too much.

re: #17 Charles

For heaven's sake, Charles. Open the windows in the bunker there and let some fresh air in once in a while. I really don't think there's any creationist angle to these bombings.

re: #25 buzzsawmonkey

Islamic fundamentalism? Who rewrites this crap into history? Ataturk's big achievement was to give the Turks a homeland by kicking the Greeks out. Nothing religious in any of it. Later, sure, he neutered the Islamists, but that was once the big issue was settled. Without Ataturk, the Turks would be like the Kurds today -- the biggest people group without their own country.

re: #66 Colonel Panik

It needs to be turned back into a church. End the Islamic Occupation of Greek Orthodox Lands! Free Constantinople!

Uh, seriously? That's so... 19th century Hellenistic movement-ist. When Constantinople fell, the inhabitants weren't Greek. They weren't even Byzantine. They preferred to call themselves Roman. And they were not the Greek Orthodox Church, that didn't come until way later, in the 19th century. So the Hagia Sofia was never a Greek Orthodox church. Those lands were also never Greek Orthodox - they were Christian, yes, but not Greek Orthodox.

re: #31 quickjustice

To enforce Ataturk's ban against the traditional Turkish dress Turkish troops would ride into a village, and order that all traditional clothing be brought out in the village square. They'd burn it all and ride on to the next village.

re: #80 Clubbeaux

Ataturk's big achievement was to give the Turks a homeland by kicking the Greeks out. Nothing religious in any of it. Later, sure, he neutered the Islamists, but that was once the big issue was settled.

Well, I would actually call the nation building he engaged himself with a lot more impressive than the tactical war victories. He formed a nation state that didn't have a nation that identified with the state he formed. The national identity. He actually used the Islamic elements to help form the identity - the latent Kurdish nationalism was subdued thanks to the initial Islamic nature of the state, and when he got rid of the caliphate Sheikh Said went all crazy, claiming the only thing that bound the Kurdish people to the Turkish state was the religion and now that it was clear the state would not be an Islamic one there was no reason to stay with it, yadda yadda yadda. Getting rid of the by now inherent "millet" identity, remnant from the Ottoman empire, and turning into a nationalist identity takes much more effort, if you ask me. The public places were all manipulated to be secularized, to the point of moving the center of Istanbul from Sultanahmet, where you have the Blue Mosque and the Hagia Sophia, to Taksim, where no mosque is visible (and in fact, at the time, there were more churches in that area than mosques.) But I'm probably getting way too much into details here, irrelevant to the topic at hand.

re: #83 Cat

Interesting comments. There are certainly mosques quite audible from Taksim these days. Ataturk wouldn't approve, that's for sure.

I wonder what readers of this site would make of the fact that in recent weeks mosques, at least those in Istanbul, have received new -- louder -- megaphones to post on their minarets. We've noticed a distinct change ever since this whole AKP legitimacy mess began, that the izzan is much louder -- and in some cases I've even heard six a day, compared to the normal five. We have a minaret loudspeaker pointed directly into our bedroom window here in Cengelkoy, we know whereof we speak.

re: #74 mean Gene

Of course there was a recent Gay Pride march down Istiklal Caddesi, Istanbul's main street. No incidents or arrests that I heard of.

re: #65 alegrias

Excuse me, female genital mutilation as a Turkish custom? Do you have any clue what you're talking about?

re: #79 Clubbeaux

For heaven's sake, Charles. Open the windows in the bunker there and let some fresh air in once in a while. I really don't think there's any creationist angle to these bombings.

Let's see....

We have a secular country that's being taken over by Islamicists. We have the Islamicists in Turkey embracing ID/Creationism in their schools. We also have the Constitutional Court hearing a case today on the legitimacy of the ruling Islamic party.

It's all part of the larger picture one sees when one opens their eyes.

re: #83 Cat

You're probably right in that his nation-building was a singularly impressive achievement. It came at a huge cost to minorities -- and no, I'm not just talking about Armenian genocides. He basically used the construct of "Turkishness" to wrap many non-Turks into one nation -- the Kurds, Armenians, and lots of smaller people groups out in eastern Turkey, like the Laz, etc. -- "We're all Turks!" Until quite recently Kurds were officially referred to by the Turkish state as "mountain Turks."

Was it the only way his plan for national cohesiveness could have succeeded? Don't know. Did it? Yes.

But overall I'm very impressed with his benevolent dictatorship. Churchill considered Ataturk one of the few truly great men of the 20th century. All the secular hagiography oversells the man, but he was very impressive in reality.

re: #87 Wendya

Oh you're right, of course. The creationists in America figured that to advance their nefarious agenda of offering their interpretation of scientific facts in America, they should call their henchmen in Istanbul and arrange a bombing of an obscure neighborhood completely unrelated to anything to do with creationism or Islamization and -- here's the kicker -- pretend they didn't have anything to do with it.

Silly of me not to see that all along. Now I know who was really responsible for the Lindbergh kidnapping too. It all fits.

re: #89 Clubbeaux

Weak. No one is saying American creationists are behind this bombing- well, except you. The point was made that American Creationists are working with anti-secularists in Turkey. Do you dispute that?

re: #90 Sharmuta

Didn't you read what Wendya wrote? It's all connected, it's all "part of the larger picture." Open your eyes, Sharmuta. Hey I bet D.B. Cooper's part of this too.

re: #91 Clubbeaux

Yes, I did read what Wendya wrote, and I noticed it was you who dragged in the American Creationists, not Wendya. I also noticed you didn't answer my question, so perhaps the question should be posed to you- did you read what I wrote?

re: #92 Sharmuta

Actually Charles "dragged in" the American Creationists in #17. Look, why don't you take some time, read all the threads and know what you're talking about before you start squeaking off at me?

re: #93 Clubbeaux

I did read this thread, but perhaps it's you who is having comprehension issues. Please show me in comment #17 where it is stated American Creationists were behind this bombing, because what I read was American Creationists are working with anti-secularists in Turkey. Do you dispute that?

re: #94 Sharmuta

(Sigh. Patiently, as to a child)

Let's review, shall we?

The original post is on a terrorist bomb attack here in Istanbul which killed a lot of people and injured a lot more.

Commenting on this post, not answering an earlier comment, but commenting on the fact that there was a bombing in Istanbul, Charles (Post #17) wrote "And US creationists have been collaborating with the anti-Kemalist Islamists in Turkey, pushing creationism into Turkish schools and pushing out science. Doing their part to usher in the Dark Ages."

This is the first mention of American creationists in connection to the bombing that I've seen. It does not appear in the original post, it does not appear in the article the post cites.

With me so far?

I didn't see the connection Charles implied between American creationists and bombings here in Istanbul, so I said (Post #79) "I really don't think there's any creationist angle to these bombings."

In response to my post Wendya wrote (Post #87) that oh no, Islamicists here in Turkey are teaching ID/Creationism, and "It's all part of the larger picture one sees when one opens their eyes." Wendya thinks there is a connection between American creationists and terrorist bombings in Istanbul.

This is patently stupid, of course, but it's the kind of idiocy that one ends up with once people irresponsibly start throwing out completely unwarranted associations in the first place (cf. Post #17), and brainless acolytes accept it as holy writ.

I wrote a satiricial post ridiculing Charles and Wendya's belief that there's a connection between American creationists and the terrorist bombings (Post #89). Here's where you stuck your beak in, getting everything completely backasswards and write "No one is saying American creationists are behind this bombing- well, except you."

I'm the only one in the whole thread who's ridiculing the asinine notion that American creationists have any connection to the bombings. Charles and Wendya seem to think there is, go ask them why they think there is a connection.

Later you write (Post #92) "I noticed it was you who dragged in the American Creationists, not Wendya." Of course had you any clue what you were talking about in the first place you would know that Charles dragged them in way back in Post #71, you would know that I said I didn’t think they were connected, and you would know that Wendya piped up to say oh yes, it's all part of the larger picture.

THEY are the ones claiming there's some sort of connection, I'm the one saying there ISN'T.

It's depressing to have to explain such elementary concepts in such detail. Actually I think you realize you got it all stupidly wrong and are just smokescreening now.