Who you calling monkey?!

I think I'll pick up this book in the next couple days. Thanks for letting us know about it, Charles.

Hey if I want to believe David killed Goliath by sicking a rabid pack of Velociraptors on him, and that the 6th plague for Passover was really Teridactyls pooping all over Egypt...let me believe it!

/

Soren Kierkegaard said that when religion leans on or against science, it sets itself up for embarrassment. And vice versa.

That pretty much sums it up, for me.

I liked Miller better when he was making those cool skiing movies !

What ,,, KEN Miller? oh ,, I thought this was about WARREN Miller ,,,, nevermind !

BOOK REVIEWED-Only a Theory: Evolution and the Battle for America's Soul

The United States has a big problem: although we maintain a strong scientific establishment, competitive with the rest of the world in many fields, we also have some of the most backwards proponents of superstitious nonsense in both our electorate and at the highest levels of politics. It is an embarrassment to host laboratories that are at the forefront of scientific research in the same country where presidential candidates are discussing whether Earth is really 6,000 years old as some Bible scholars say, or whether they believe in evolution.
....
Miller is sympathetic to the creationists' perspective but opposes them uncompromisingly. The book does not try to place the blame for creationism on ignorance, stupidity or malice, but suggests that the ideas are rooted in traditions and values that biologists share. He admires the clever rhetorical trick of appropriating the term 'design' for creationism, thereby implying that scientists favour the opposite and believe that human life is meaningless and without purpose. He recognizes that the concept of intelligent design creationism taps effectively into human desires and prejudices. Miller does not confuse sympathy for the intent of creationists with sympathy for its effects. The conflict has wider consequences than the teaching of one discipline in US public schools — the creationists aim to revise what science means, discarding rationalism, naturalism, materialism and other Enlightenment values to incorporate the supernatural and loosen the rigour of all sciences.

"...that would use the Divine not as ultimate cause, but as scientific explanation."

Ding! Here is the point of the whole matter. If you do not understand all of this, it is wrapped up in this statement. This is why the disclaimer is right on the money...where is that again Charles?

BTW, I think I am going to start my high school Theology class with a discussion on this topic using much I have gleaned from these posts.

re: #5 sattv4u2

I liked Miller better when he was making those cool skiing movies !

What ,,, KEN Miller? oh ,, I thought this was about WARREN Miller ,,,, nevermind !

I liked Ken Miller's documentaries on baseball and the Civil War...

re: #8 Cognito

I liked Ken Miller's documentaries on baseball and the Civil War...

they didn't play baseball during the civil war, silly !

Last night on local TV there was an ad for the Creation Museum. Very creepy.

Thanks Charles, watching now

I'm lust lookin' for that hot monkey love.....

re: #10 student

Last night on local TV there was an ad for the Creation Museum. Very creepy.

what was creepy ,,, the ad, or your local tv ?

re: #9 sattv4u2

they didn't play baseball during the civil war, silly !

wait...you mean Pickett's charge wasn't a suicide squeeze?

Wonder how many will buy the book thinking it's a creationist tract?

re: #9 sattv4u2

they didn't play baseball during the civil war, silly !

Didn't the Yankees go up against Texas?
:)

re: #15 HelloDare

Wonder how many will buy the book thinking it's a creationist tract?

Wouldn't be a bad thing for creationists to read.

re: #7 AndyMacOP
I really don't get what the problem is people have with this. These same people accept a variety of other scientific theories with no complaints to explain a host of natural occurrences. God created the universe; God created the processes by which it is governed.

re: #17 rlevitin

Wouldn't be a bad thing for creationists to read.

this book ,,,,,, or in general?

re: #2 Sharmuta

I think I'll pick up this book in the next couple days. Thanks for letting us know about it, Charles.

I think I'll pick up a couple copies for the local library.

I'm looking for book recommendations, but not on this subject. How about Podhoretz' World War IV, or similar?

re: #9 sattv4u2

they didn't play baseball during the civil war, silly !

Not so, Satt. Not so.

re: #18 mossley

It's as simple as that! I think in truth there is an absolute fear that if the Bible was not literally accurate on the creation of the world, then other things in it have no standing in truth, and that is just plain silly.

re: #22 Cognito

Not so, Satt. Not so.

tough dodging bulletts and shells heading for 3rd, i imagine

The History of Baseball

The first recorded baseball contest took place a year later, in 1846. Cartwright and his Knickerbocker Base Ball Club of New York City lost to the New York Baseball Club in a game at the Elysian Fields, in Hoboken, New Jersey. These amateur games became more frequent and more popular. In 1857, a convention of amateur teams was called to discuss rules and other issues. Twenty five teams from the northeast sent delegates. The following year, they formed the National Association of Base Ball Players, the first organized baseball league. In its first year of operation, the league supported itself by occasionally charging fans for admission. The future looked very bright.

Illustration of baseball being played during the Civil War.

Wow- that's some nasty campaigning in Ohio- and against Tom Sawyer, to boot. Talk about built-in name recognition.

27 posts already, and nobody has said "I'm outa here". Is that evolution in action?

Science!

re: #22 Cognito

re: #25 HelloDare

geez Louise ,,, a guy makes a joke, and all his hopes, dreams and aspirations get dashed ,, shattered,,,, ruined ,,, (sniff sniff)

re: #27 Naso Tang

27 posts already, and nobody has said "I'm outa here". Is that evolution in action?

They're at Church

re: #15 HelloDare

Well, I think that's the idea. PZ Myers review I linked to upthread mentions one of the weaknesses of the book is that it doesn't discuss the sociological problems caused by creationist organizations (mostly here in the US). I think he avoided that aspect because the book is meant to appeal to the religious community and counteract the Disco Institute's rhetoric that evolution in an atheist ideology. The book is not meant to preach to the converted, it's meant to appeal to those on the fence.

re: #22 Cognito

From your link:

In 1861 at the start of the war, an amateur team made up of members of the 71st New York Regiment defeated the Washington Nationals baseball club by a score of 41 to 13.

Some things never change.

re: #32 solomonpanting

From your link:

In 1861 at the start of the war, an amateur team made up of members of the 71st New York Regiment defeated the Washington Nationals baseball club by a score of 41 to 13.

Some things never change.

If you look closely at the illustration above, you can see a young Steinbrenner yelling from the baseline.

re: #30 Shug

No I ain't!

Wait, you are not talking about me, I am religious, but not and IDer. Ok...

Thanks Charles. I thought I knew enough about evolution and the ID hoax, but not until you started actively posting about this issue and providing such good materials, links, and readings.
Reading the ID threads and going through all these materials is so informative and mind-refreshing.

We must allow ID into the classroom because:

A) Evolution is just a theory
B) Two words- Irreducible Complexity
C) If you find a watch on the beach, there must be a watchmaker
D) You're not a true Christian otherwise
E) Charles Johnson is a Darwinistic nihilist atheist God hater
F) A combination of any or all of the above

/hat tip- myself with thanks to jaunte

OT; Fark headline....
What do Al Qaeda and an anus have in common? They never get tired of making number 2s
Heh.

More proof of FF: (Flip Flopping)

Obama backs away from debates with McCain.

I believe!

re: #30 Shug

They're at Church

On Saturday? Must be the Muslims.

re: #12 mbruce

I'm lust lookin' for that hot monkey love.....

*smoochies*

I will agree with Ken Miller on one point: There is a battle afoot for America's soul, all right. No arguments there!

However, i am fervently praying that the evolutionists do not have their way, as -- if they do -- America will lose its soul, after a manner of speaking.

Besides, evolution simply does not fill the bill. It is a "work-around" to "get by" without acknowledging the truths of Scripture regarding the origins of the earth.

I have said this before, but it bears repeating: As hard as the evolutionists fight for their point of view, it comes across as religious zeal to me.

Here is a good resource for the "rest of the story" on the creation/evolution debate.

Creation ex nihilo is not an optional teaching for the earnest Bible believer. And I don't think the writer to the Hebrews is referring to protoplasmic ooze, either. :-)

re: #7 AndyMacOP

Ding! BTW, I think I am going to start my high school Theology class with a discussion on this topic using much I have gleaned from these posts.

High School Theology class? I get the feeling you are not in NJ, where I attended HS.

re: #23 AndyMacOP

It's as simple as that! I think in truth there is an absolute fear that if the Bible was not literally accurate on the creation of the world, then other things in it have no standing in truth, and that is just plain silly.

It is just a bit more complicated, but you have captured the essence.

Many denominations, including mine, believe in the inerrancy of the Bible. What we often fall to realize is that the revelation that we have been given as a picture of God is not a technical document, but a spiritual one.

As long as we use the text to help us determine our relationship to God and at the same time our relationships to others, we will be fine, particularly at a spiritual level. When we start applying it in a strict historical context or, as in this case, a scientific one, we must brace ourselves for inevitable problems.

While I believe the revelation to be without error, I do not believe it to be complete. There are simply things about God and His works that we do not know. We do not know chronologically. We do not know mechanically. We do not know.

Many of us, and I have to admit this used to be me, hate to admit that we do not know something. This is particularly true when the subject is one to which we claim to have an intimate and personal relationship.

But, there are some things about God that I do not know, and can not know. I have to accept that.

Maybe, just maybe, scientific evidence, presented fairly and honestly, can fill some of those gaps.

If it is shown to be true, then it is true. I can live with that.

Joe

re: #27 Naso Tang

27 posts already, and nobody has said "I'm outa here". Is that evolution in action?

It's OK until the fanatics take over.

re: #39 Naso Tang

On Saturday? Must be the Muslims.

Huh?

The Muslims worship on Fridays.

They sometimes refer (derisively) to Jews as "the Saturday people," and to Christians as "the Sunday people."

re: #9 sattv4u2

they didn't play baseball during the civil war, silly !

Actually, they did.

;^)

re: #46 Spiny Norman

Next time, perhaps, I'll refresh the page before I post...

re: #41 gunjam

It is a "work-around" to "get by" without acknowledging the truths of Scripture regarding the origins of the earth.

And which scripture would that be? Are you suggesting we force Buddhists, Hindus and Jews study the New Testament in science class?

Life on Mars?
The White House is Briefed: Phoenix About to Announce "Potential For Life" on Mars

What is the battle for again?
If this is the battle for America's soul--then what is the alternative again? How is it possible to get this worked up about such an issue? If ID is so easy to discredit--why not let it be looked at. Is it that we must protect these poor kids from getting brainwashed? With the problems we have in the schools -- the secularists want to push away those who are the most constructive in terms of working hard and setting a good example of morality to the other kids.
You go girl--

re: #42 Shay4l

Nope, Chicago!

re: #43 vibemanjoe

While I believe the revelation to be without error, I do not believe it to be complete. There are simply things about God and His works that we do not know. We do not know chronologically. We do not know mechanically. We do not know.

The Genesis creation account is very clear about the chronological order of the creative week.

You don't have to believe it, but you can't have it both ways : If you believe it, you are bound by it -- if you are logical person, that is.

Hmmmm,i'm very upset here.logged on and did not see the "frank says"box....wahhhhhhhhh

re: #41 gunjam

I will agree with Ken Miller on one point: There is a battle afoot for America's soul, all right. No arguments there!

However, i am fervently praying that the evolutionists do not have their way, as -- if they do -- America will lose its soul, after a manner of speaking.

This is no argument. Your link provides no argument.

OT the picture of Assad and Ahmadinejad (sp!) really show how short the Iranian Hitler-Wannabe is. There's no doubt in my mind the man has little man syndrome, just like his predecessor-in-destruction.

How short is my dictator

re: #45 gunjam

Huh?

The Muslims worship on Fridays.

They sometimes refer (derisively) to Jews as "the Saturday people," and to Christians as "the Sunday people."

True. I knew that, or should have.

re: #52 gunjam

So- you're going with "D"?

re: #53 Boondock St. Bender

Did we finally lose Frank? bummer.

re: #51 AndyMacOP

Nope, Chicago!

The only theology they'd ever allow in NJ schools is Marxism. I'm glad I came to TX, where they don't try to suffocate your soul in the name of the "community".

re: #48 Killgore Trout

And which scripture would that be? Are you suggesting we force Buddhists, Hindus and Jews study the New Testament in science class?

I have been told that the argument can be made that the Hindu scriptures do teach a form of evolution. :-)

So, I guess I could say that your team is already teaching religion in science class.

Balancing that with the Bible would do more good than harm from where I sit.

Accepting -- for the sake of discussion -- that the Bible cannot be taught in public school science classes, then ID would be a way of balancing the science class curriculum.

re: #23 AndyMacOP

It's as simple as that! I think in truth there is an absolute fear that if the Bible was not literally accurate on the creation of the world, then other things in it have no standing in truth, and that is just plain silly.

Well, yes and no.

literal creation in six days = disproved by science
virgin birth = ?
resurrection = ?

For some, too much scientific scrutiny might cause the whole edifice to come tumbling down like a house of cards. If God could do the latter two, why couldn't He have done the former? And if He didn't do the former, who's to say He also didn't do the latter two?

(It isn't an all-or-nothing proposition for me but it is for some folks.)

It all comes down to which church you attend and which parts of the Bible you and your church choose to interpret literally. Pentecostal churches, for example, teach specifically that evolution did not happen and that a belief in literal creationism is required.

re: #45 gunjam

Huh?

The Muslims worship on Fridays.

They sometimes refer (derisively) to Jews as "the Saturday people," and to Christians as "the Sunday people."

Hmm.

It's clear to me that we -- the Friday, Saturday, and Sunday people -- are all seriously missing out on a chance to consolidate real estate.

re: #60 gunjam

Accepting -- for the sake of discussion -- that the Bible cannot be taught in public school science classes, then ID would be a way of balancing the science class curriculum.

What is the point of "balancing" science with tripe? What law says that reality must be balanced with fantasy?

re: #52 gunjam

The Genesis creation account is very clear about the chronological order of the creative week.

You don't have to believe it, but you can't have it both ways : If you believe it, you are bound by it -- if you are logical person, that is.

"Bound" is a good word for it.

re: #60 gunjam

Accepting -- for the sake of discussion -- that the Bible cannot be taught in public school science classes, then ID would be a way of balancing the science class curriculum.

Ooops, your talking points are off. You aren't supposed to admit that ID has anything to do with religion.

re: #52 gunjam

The Genesis creation account is very clear about the chronological order of the creative week.

You don't have to believe it, but you can't have it both ways : If you believe it, you are bound bounded by it -- if you are logical literalist person, that is.

fixed

re: #41 gunjam

the earnest Bible believer

Euphemism for:

re: #36 Sharmuta

D) You're not a true Christian otherwise

re: #67 Josephine

I knew he was going with "D"!

When you allow one religion a spot on the agenda in public schools, others will immediately demand a spot as well. Who else gets a spot? Christians; Hindus; Buddhists; Jews; Muslims; Scientology?

Learn spirituality on your own dime - not in public schools.

re: #39 Naso Tang

On Saturday? Must be the Muslims.

Seventh-day Adventists go to church on Saturday.

(But I don't know what they teach about evolution.)

re: #68 Sharmuta

I knew he was going with "D"!

I don't happen to believe gunjam is right. But I'll tell you that his thoughts on the thread -- earnest, as it were -- are a lot more palatable than a gloating list.

re: #69 Racer X

When you allow one religion a spot on the agenda in public schools, others will immediately demand a spot as well. Who else gets a spot? Christians; Hindus; Buddhists; Jews; Muslims; Scientology?

Learn spirituality on your own dime - not in public schools.

I agree. The public schools must be allowed to mis-teach history (the US's in particular), and be the place where students pass who don't have basic reading and writing skills

re: #60 gunjam

I have been told that the argument can be made that the Hindu scriptures do teach a form of evolution. :-)

So, I guess I could say that your team is already teaching religion in science class.

Balancing that with the Bible would do more good than harm from where I sit.

Accepting -- for the sake of discussion -- that the Bible cannot be taught in public school science classes, then ID would be a way of balancing the science class curriculum.

ID will lose. It will fade away It will serve as an amusing historical curiosity for people in the future, as well as a potent example of the dangers of religious fundamentalism.

re: #70 Josephine

They are deeply creationist.

Seventh-day Adventists

re: #73 Salem

ID will lose. It will fade away

How so? For how long have people of every race and religious persuasion beleived in a higher power, one that all things came from? ID did not start 2000 years ago with Christ and the birth of christianity

re: #71 Cognito

I don't happen to believe gunjam is right. But I'll tell you that his thoughts on the thread -- earnest, as it were -- are a lot more palatable than a gloating list.

I will speak for myself: your assumption is incorrect.

I was not gloating: I was pointing out something that I think is pertinent to understanding the perspective of the anti-evolution, pro-ID folks.

Intelligent Design isn't about "science" or "intelligence." It's all about violating the First Amendment by using taxpayer dollars to support one religion over another.

The term "intelligent design" was coined to cover up the political agenda behind it, on par with "pro-choice."

re: #72 sattv4u2

I agree. The public schools must be allowed to mis-teach history (the US's in particular), and be the place where students pass who don't have basic reading and writing skills

Excellent point. There are teachers out there now who are butchering American history, let alone reading, writing, and math. How will public school teachers fare when teaching the complexities of spirituality?

re: #71 Cognito

Gloating? Those are the arguments they themselves put forth. If you read any of these ID threads, you'd see the pattern. Just like my list of fascist excuses, they don't really stray off these basic arguments.

There's being right. And there's being right with grace.

re: #80 Cognito

There's being right. And there's being right with grace.

Neither of which you are familiar with.

re: #74 Sharmuta

Thanks, Shar, I haven't read much about that church.

Its OK to use tact and grace in these debates. LGF has lost too many good people because feelings were hurt.

Quite possible, Sharmuta. But then again I can't recall ever making a list.

Here's the point: I can accept that people can be wrong, or just uninformed, without deserving mockery and derision. Good people can have misplaced opinions. They're still good.

re: #75 sattv4u2

For how long have people of every race and religious persuasion beleived in a higher power, one that all things came from?

And do you honestly think teaching ID won't lead to even more denial of science in the classroom? How does a school board decide of Baptists or Mormons or Buddhists or Hindus or, yes, Muslims will provide the story underpinning ID? Short answer: on the taxpayer dime, you don't.

Furthermore, how do you scrutinize ID with the scientific method? Where is the experimental control? How do you intelligently create one universe, and randomly create another?

ID fails scientific scrutiny. ID is anti-intelligence. ID is an oxymoron.

re: #80 Cognito

You're trying to pick a fight. I'm not interested.

re: #82 Josephine

When you get to Saving Darwin, you will read about them. In fact- they really kind of started this whole controversy.

re: #72 sattv4u2

I agree. The public schools must be allowed to mis-teach history (the US's in particular), and be the place where students pass who don't have basic reading and writing skills

I'll assume the /sarc tag in that.

Teaching History demands that students be taught about religions. Until you deal with Europe after the 17th century and Asia after the introduction of Marxism (which arguably should be studied as if it was a religion) it is impossible to meaningfully study cultures and events without understanding the religious issues and motivations that were at work. People killed over issues such as whether the sign of the cross was given with one two or three fingers. The distinctions between Presbyterian and Episcopal church governance cost the King of England his head and laid the foundations for freedom in Parliament and confession that we have today. Attempts to explain away history as purely a series of secular events with economic motives are not only impoverished but are deeply insulting to the memories of the people involved.

re: #86 Josephine

You're trying to pick a fight. I'm not interested.

Well, firstly, I haven't addressed you at all. So I'm not sure which of us is picking a fight, exactly.

Secondly, I'm not picking anything -- it just rankles me to see someone stumble across a correct opinion and then wave it under the noses of other people -- good people -- who haven't arrived at the same conclusion.

re: #41 gunjam

Creation ex nihilo is not an optional teaching for the earnest Bible believer. And I don't think the writer to the Hebrews is referring to protoplasmic ooze, either. :-)

A strange battle among us Christians is underway. I study science and evolutionary findings and see God. The same God I see in the Bible and the Church. Other Christians study science and evolution and they apparently see Satan (ok, an overstatement, but you get my point).

Here is the problem. I believe in creation ex nihilo, but I believe it happened billions and billions of years ago as the beginning of a wonderful process. Many Christian Biblical Fundamentalists believe the world is about 6,000 years old. This core idea to the young-earth creationist makes God out to be a deceiver and a liar. Why would God give us the ability to think and reason through problems and come up with solid answers and solutions, just to deceive us? What is in it for Him? Why is anyone's faith so fragile that the idea that God created the world in an absolutely reasonable fashion that a story, mixed together from ancient myths and legends in order to explain one thing: God is the creator of all, be the thread that your faith depends upon?

God is not bound by natural law they way we are. And there is the answer. What is nature telling us? I know one thing that nature is not telling everyone: sometimes God (and people) use stories to tell a greater truth. Otherwise you might have to believe that all of the parables Jesus told actually happened. And if you believe that, all I can do is sigh and remember what a faithful and funny Biblical scholar told us in class one day at seminary: Biblical fundamentalists must be ridiculed. There is no arguing with someone who refuses to engage in reasonable dialogue and acknowledge empirical evidence. I think this is why this site exists. Charles has done yeoman's work in pointing out the stupidity of Islamic fundys and moonbats. Now it is someone else's turn.

re: #87 Sharmuta

Yes, I need to read that, plus the one featured in this post. They both sound interesting and informative.

I have to use my husband's computer to watch the videos Charles posted, so it might not happen until Tuesday. (This is a long weekend for us; Monday is a civic holiday.)

re: #85 victor_yugo

And do you honestly think teaching ID won't lead to even more denial of science in the classroom? How does a school board decide of Baptists or Mormons or Buddhists or Hindus or, yes, Muslims will provide the story underpinning ID? Short answer: on the taxpayer dime, you don't.

Furthermore, how do you scrutinize ID with the scientific method? Where is the experimental control? How do you intelligently create one universe, and randomly create another?

ID fails scientific scrutiny. ID is anti-intelligence. ID is an oxymoron.

please show me where in my post that I am advocating public funds/ schools/ teaching of ID

I'll wait

The first private space launch countdown has started. Live Feed , although they seem to be having webcam problems

re: #80 Cognito

There's being right. And there's being right with grace.

And there is being wrong without grace.

I posted this comment on the history channel thread, admittedly it belongs here where people like Gunjam and perhaps even our own prestigious genetic epidemiologist Mr. George Slivers.

"Coming into this late I'd just like to point out that I have no issue pointing out the flaws and missteps of the science of evolution. If it's good science it generally can stand up to conjecture and debate.

I just don't see the point against dismissing something for the single solitary reason that it makes you question your faith. On that basis a lot more in the world should be dismissed as fantasy: war, disease, famine, plagues, rape, genocide, pain...how do these fit into an "intelligent designer" belief system in which the designer went so far as to build trillions of living organisms ranging from single-celled simple ones to extremely complex organisms such as ourselves and other creatures whose existence we'd never know about for at least (for some of you) 5-7 thousand years of technology. Microbes and deep sea fish/worms and millions of undiscovered species that have only recently become visible thanks to technological advancements show that the literal interpretation of religious texts can at least be shown to leave certain subjects out. Of course, that is more a blot on the creationist belief system then the that of the "intelligent design" movement per se, but I think it is fair to say that one must have some belief in a specific God, not necessarily the God of Abraham, to believe that every single species was designed (some say) just a short time ago. How does 99% of all life on the planet over the course of either the short time of 5-7 thousand years (for that some I spoke of) or even 3 billion years (as scientists have proven through various different methods) fit into any coherent plan?

If the evidence of species taking on different traits and those same traits being identifiable in a wide range of modern species thus suggesting a possible line of ancestry is actually offensive to one's faith, shouldn't everything else be? Shouldn't the fact that infant mortality even exists be more damaging to the idea of "intelligent design" than a set of data and a theory of what that data means? Which is worse: Adam and Eve being merely a story and the Bible having value in a deeper more philosophical sense or a world designed to be filled with suffering and violence (and there'd be plenty regardless of humanity, the animal kingdom is quite violent thank you).

As an agnostic and former-Christian I can say as a child I took the Bible literally, then came to disagree with much in the Bible on that literal basis, then as I took it as a collection of stories some held to be true-to-fact such as Christ's birth, life, death and resurrection and ascension into Heaven, it was only on a few points that I came to question my own faith until it was no more. Even though I'm no longer a Christian though, I don't find myself hating Jesus nor the God of a non-literal Bible...to take the Bible literally on the other hand...well I hate that version of God so much that if he were real I'd refuse to kneel before him. That God disgusts me to no end, he is a God that tricks his people by leaving clues and ways to observe the universe and then shows them to be a cruel fantasy with only faith as the guide to him. A God that slaughters indiscriminately is not the kind of God I'd consider benign or admirable. I find it disturbing that people would choose that belief system and that they would go out of their way to make others believe the same things as them through dishonesty as we have seen on this very forum: George Slivers for instance pretending to be a scientist and various others who I suspect are part of creationist political/religious groups bent on quelling anything that could cause people to make up their own minds on the question of faith.

Thank you Charles for allowing these people to show themselves for what they really are."

re: #84 Cognito

That wasn't mockery. That was a list of arguments they actually use on these threads. And no where did I call them bad people. And- for your information- it's the opposite. Many of the ID advocates and creationists have told many of us that we are not "true" Christians. That's deeply offensive. So why don't you get your knickers in a twist over that? Or- maybe you can jump Andy for his #90 or go back to discussing baseball.

Webcam back up, look like the launch will be around 5pm pacific time.

re: #61 Josephine

As an interesting point that I have been thinking about lately in response to this issue is the fact that for a person to be declared a saint in the Catholic Church today, no less than 2 scientifically verifiable miracles must be presented. We go to science to find out what they think. I personally have one report from Lourdes that is very interesting. And they do not require the doctors and scientists to be Catholics, nor Christian! Just experts in their fields.

The issue with the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection is that there is nothing to study. So science will say it never happened, but cannot prove it. Just like we cannot scientifically prove it did happen. It is an article of faith. Otherwise it would not be faith!

re: #93 Killgore Trout

The first private space launch countdown has started. Live Feed , although they seem to be having webcam problems

Space Tourism...hopefully it'll be affordable before we die.

re: #96 Sharmuta

That wasn't mockery. That was a list of arguments they actually use on these threads. And no where did I call them bad people. And- for your information- it's the opposite. Many of the ID advocates and creationists have told many of us that we are not "true" Christians. That's deeply offensive. So why don't you get your knickers in a twist over that? Or- maybe you can jump Andy for his #90 or go back to discussing baseball.

Relax, Sharmuta. My knickers are entirely untwisted, and I've not jumped anyone for anything.

re: #97 Killgore Trout

Webcam back up, look like the launch will be around 5pm pacific time.

Cool. Where is the launch site?

re: #99 DeathtotheSwiss

Branson's space tourist space flight will cost around $200,000 for about 7 minutes in low orbit. Maybe not in our lifetime but maybe our kids.

re: #101 Racer X

Somewhere near Hawaii.

re: #101 Racer X

Cool. Where is the launch site?

A small atoll off Hawaii, I believe.

"Yeah, Joe Public, you can fire off a rocket. But you'll do it over there."

re: #104 Cognito

So what happens when aliens shoot them down?

re: #105 DeathtotheSwiss

So what happens when aliens shoot them down?

I can't speak for everyone, but I'll be busy shaking hands -- or whatever -- with my new alien buddies.

re: #104 Cognito

A small atoll off Hawaii, I believe.

"Yeah, Joe Public, you can fire off a rocket. But you'll do it over there."

most low level (i.e. communication satellites, military, etc0 are launched from remote places (platforms in the pacific,,, and lately most US private communication satellites are launched from Baikonur Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan)

re: #88 lifeofthemind

Teaching History demands that students be taught about religions.

In the sense that history can be taught while saying the such and such slaughtered so and so on the basis that so and so ate eggs from the narrow end instead of the round one like such and such did; then religion can be referenced. However there is no possible way to "teach" about religion in a comparative manner without either being biased or without insulting someone in the process.

That is an unfortunate reality, and therefore a reason why such teaching cannot be done in a public and multicultural multi religious society.

Go to Saudi, or any Muslim mono theistic society, if you want to see how it works. They certainly do teach about other religions too.

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Well, I think that's the idea. PZ Myers review I linked to upthread mentions one of the weaknesses of the book is that it doesn't discuss the sociological problems caused by creationist organizations (mostly here in the US). I think he avoided that aspect because the book is meant to appeal to the religious community and counteract the Disco Institute's rhetoric that evolution in an atheist ideology. The book is not meant to preach to the converted, it's meant to appeal to those on the fence.

Still though, it might be a worthy read for us secularists who support science over theology in the science class. The arguments presented can in turn be used to counter the religious-based arguments hell bent (pun intended) on defeating evolution at every turn.

re: #109 eclectic infidel

Agreed.

re: #108 Naso Tang

In the sense that history can be taught while saying the such and such slaughtered so and so on the basis that so and so ate eggs from the narrow end instead of the round one like such and such did; then religion can be referenced. However there is no possible way to "teach" about religion in a comparative manner without either being biased or without insulting someone in the process.

That is an unfortunate reality, and therefore a reason why such teaching cannot be done in a public and multicultural multi religious society.

Go to Saudi, or any Muslim mono theistic society, if you want to see how it works. They certainly do teach about other religions too.

Now I'm really upset - I hate the small roundians!

re: #93 Killgore Trout

The first private space launch countdown has started. Live Feed , although they seem to be having webcam problems

not to be pedantic, but the first private space launch was in 2004, with the launch of Spaceship One.

re: #112 sillyquiet

not to be pedantic, but the first private space launch was in 2004, with the launch of Spaceship One.

Science! History!

re: #107 sattv4u2

I have seen some small (relatively speaking) rocket clubs in Arizona and Nevada. They put up some fairly serious rockets but they aren't very close to getting out of the atmosphere.

re: #92 sattv4u2

please show me where in my post that I am advocating public funds/ schools/ teaching of ID

My comment #85, above, was improperly directed at sattv4u2. It is hereby withdrawn, with prejudice.

Please, any and all, ding it down into negative-red-number oblivion, since I am unable to do so myself.

re: #93 Killgore Trout

If they can't operate a webcam, I 'm worry about their ability to achieve orbit

re: #10 student

Last night on local TV there was an ad for the Creation Museum. Very creepy.

Is that the one from their website that shows all the cartoon dinosaurs and ends with a little girl being lifted up into the trees to play with a chimp by a Brachiosaurus?

re: #112 sillyquiet

not to be pedantic, but the first private space launch was in 2004, with the launch of Spaceship One.

wow ,, and here I thought the 1st private launch was in 1960 when Timothy Leary found psilocybin mushrooms !

re: #106 Cognito

I can't speak for everyone, but I'll be busy shaking hands -- or whatever -- with my new alien buddies.

As long as it's not the "San Francisco Hand Shake".

_{^{eeww. Did I really just type that?}}

re: #112 sillyquiet

Ah, I didn't catch the nuance.....
First Privately Developed Liquid Fuel Rocket to Orbit

Ah, I guess the liquid fuel is the 1st for a private spacecraft.

re: #120 ploome hineni

I wonder how any AMerican kids can identify a robin?

I identified the robin that crapped all over my car. He was in a police line-up, pretending to be all nicey-nicey like an eagle, but he didn't fool me.

Yawn.
I've an alternative suggestion. Offer religion classes as an purely elective course for those who wish to learn all measures of thought/comparisons. Those who do not wish to have their intelligence challenged needn't waste their time.
I believe Texas schools are going to do just that.

re: #116 Shug

We’re Looking for Great People

At SpaceX we are always seeking world-class people to join our team. Most of our needs are in California, but we’re also growing our Florida team in preparation for increased Falcon 9 activities at Cape Canaveral, and we’re expanding our Texas propulsion and test team.

Since the people we seek can work anywhere they want and tend to be most highly prized by their organizations, SpaceX also offers up to a $5,000 award to anyone who refers a candidate we hire. Besides a competitive salary, comprehensive benefits and significant stock options, joining SpaceX offers the opportunity to help open up space for humanity.

Help 'em out.

re: #122 victor_yugo

I identified the robin that crapped all over my car. He was in a police line-up, pretending to be all nicey-nicey like an eagle, but he didn't fool me.

Can you identify this birdie?

Don't even think of crapping here

re: #121 Killgore Trout

Ah, I didn't catch the nuance.....
First Privately Developed Liquid Fuel Rocket to Orbit

Ah, I guess the liquid fuel is the 1st for a private spacecraft.

must be. IIRC Spaceship one used solid fuel with a liquid oxydizer.
/space nerd

re: #125 Naso Tang

Can you identify this birdie?

Don't even think of crapping here

OMG!

The cat one was terrible!

_{But funny.}

The real weird thing about Miller is that is he is a Catholic. So he obviously believes in the magic of Jesus but I'm not sure in which way.

re: #111 debutaunt

Now I'm really upset - I hate the small roundians!

Bigendian scum!
:)

re: #108 Naso Tang

In the sense that history can be taught while saying the such and such slaughtered so and so on the basis that so and so ate eggs from the narrow end instead of the round one like such and such did; then religion can be referenced. However there is no possible way to "teach" about religion in a comparative manner without either being biased or without insulting someone in the process.

In a word "No." The description of a meaningless education done badly does not mean that History is simply impossible to teach. You may have been badly taught. It may be difficult and expensive to properly teach. That does not prove that "there is no possible way ..." To do it correctly means knowledgeable instructors going into far deeper detail. If by "biased" you mean stating affirmatively at the beginning that your method and process are in line with a tradition of inquiry that reaches back through Aristotle then guilty. The value of the education can be determined by verifying the coherent abilities of the educated at the end. We used to teach that way and the results were pretty damn good. Saying that someone will be insulted does not mean that the teaching will be done improperly or ineffectively. That was the original argument for Tenure. To protect the jobs of teachers positing truths that contradicted a partisan prejudice.

Middle paragraph deleted.

Go to Saudi, or any Muslim mono theistic society, if you want to see how it works. They certainly do teach about other religions too.

They do it wrong. They do almost everything wrong. We should study and teach why.

AndyMcOp

if you are still here go in the lounge!

re: #130 lifeofthemind

Be realistic. Such matters can be taught in Universities, but in school it would be a farce.

Sorry about screwing up the blockquotes. Repeat after me class, Preview is ....

re: #132 Naso Tang

Be realistic. Such matters can be taught in Universities, but in school it would be a farce.

We are probably not natural opponents. Be not afraid. The current darkness may be but a passing thing. Remember it was done better before. A hundred years ago 50% graduated from High School and they all got a darn good education. Now 50% graduate but they get a miserable education. Raising standards works.

re: #125 Naso Tang

Now that was funny.
Why'd it not air -- PETA? The Audobon Society?

re: #120 ploome hineni

From your quote:

Half of youngsters aged nine to 11 were unable to identify a daddy-long-legs, oak tree, blue tit or bluebell, in the poll by BBC Wildlife Magazine.

I know nothing myself of blue tits. I am familiar, however, with blue... nevermind.

re: #123 littleO

Yawn.
I've an alternative suggestion. Offer religion classes as an purely elective course for those who wish to learn all measures of thought/comparisons. Those who do not wish to have their intelligence challenged needn't waste their time.
I believe Texas schools are going to do just that.

I've an alternative suggestion. Offer religion classes in church.

re: #138 kansas

Another alternate suggestion: Science classes in church.

Why the focus on evolution so much lately?

re134 taxfreekiller
I would hope religious education in public schools might rather lead to theology and the thoughts of the early Church Fathers in higher education.

re: #124 Racer X

Maybe the need a luthier.

re140 cpuller
makes ya think dodn it

re: #128 theatheistjew

The Pope also believes in evolution and JC. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

re: #140 cpuller

Why the focus on evolution so much lately?

Why not?

re: #143 littleO

re140 cpuller
makes ya think dodn it

Don't strain yourself.

re: #135 lifeofthemind

We are probably not natural opponents. Be not afraid. The current darkness may be but a passing thing. Remember it was done better before. A hundred years ago 50% graduated from High School and they all got a darn good education. Now 50% graduate but they get a miserable education. Raising standards works.

That is what is called reminiscing about the good old days (remember do you?), when it's hard to make realistic comparisons with anything. 100 years ago Christians ruled the earth and proved it (close enough to 100) with things like the Scopes Trial.

Students of 100 years ago would not pass any class today based on the level of knowledge they needed then to be successful, versus what is needed today.

That there are problems with education is obvious, but to suggest that religion in school can cure that is ridiculous.

re: #138 kansas

I've an alternative suggestion. Offer religion classes in church.

It sounds funny but ask the economic question, at what cost? As lizards I suppose we are unhappy with the aimless ill educated state of our society the makes people unable to respond effectively to Islamist propaganda, abuse of the legal system and empowers hucksters selling a "Holiday From History" at the voting booth. If we do not improve the level of History education and the understanding of the religious forces out there then why would we expect better results?

re: #144 Killgore Trout

The Pope also believes in evolution and JC. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

I understand that. I just find it difficult to understand how someone could be heavily into mounds and mounds of evidence when it comes to evolution, yet sort of let their guard down and believe in a lot of unprovable hocus pocus that supposedly happened 2000 years ago.

re: #140 cpuller

Why the focus on evolution so much lately?

Because the objective here is to place light where it is needed.

The war on science continues....
UC researchers and families attacked

...a fire was started on the porch of a faculty member's home. Injuries were sustained as the faculty member and his wife and children escaped the residence."

Attack comes after pamphlets were found threatening faculty claimed to use animals in research.

Fires were set at two faculty residences, car in the driveway of one house, and on the porch of another's house.

"Injuries were sustained as the faculty member and his wife and children escaped the residence."

Earlier this week, pamphlets threatening researchers at UCSC were found at a downtown Santa Cruz coffeeshop.
The pamphlets were turned into police by a customer, and threaten researchers alleged to work on animals, and listed their names, addresses, phone numbers with photos.

re: #149 theatheistjew

I understand that. I just find it difficult to understand how someone could be heavily into mounds and mounds of evidence when it comes to evolution, yet sort of let their guard down and believe in a lot of unprovable hocus pocus that supposedly happened 2000 years ago.

It's called faith, and that's why it's different from science. It's also why science should be taught in science classes, and faith taught at home, in houses of worship and/or in religion classes.

re: #153 taxfreekiller

Of some note:

The no. 2 of the Texas R's makes a living selling Bibles.

Door to door? Can I get some Avon products and Fuller Brushes from him/ her also ?

re: #140 cpuller

Why the focus on evolution so much lately?

Perhaps because we see a battle for survival, political and cultural, being waged around us, and it's partially relevant and also refreshingly OT to look at the real thing.

Heh. Seems like every time I log into LGF and there's an Evolution thread, it says...last comment Kilgore Trout.

Hey Kilgore. What's happening?

re: #94 Naso Tang

And there is being wrong without grace.

And there is thinking that everything you believe is right, therefore you don't have to display grace.
Been a lot of that, lately.
I have, to my regret, let my irritation be reflected in my posts.
If I read a post that pushes a button, I force myself to wait at least 5 minutes before posting -- I find that I usually don't post a reply, there really are more important things to be annoyed at.

[ Speaking of more important things, having the lovely Mrs. least around helps too - today is domestic day, floors to vacuum, foolrs to mop and washing macines that need fed]

re: #149 theatheistjew

I happen to think faith is overrated but some people value it. I think the key here is that he's advocating for a version of faith that is compatible with modern life. A basic understanding of biology is important but if he believes in a few ancient miracles it doesn't bother me any. It's very important for Christianity to continue being a modern religion if they want to survive.

re: #156 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Heh, not much.

RE: #93,
They've started the prelaunch show.

it seems that so many of the evolutionists here express such great concern for public schools, and for the poor education that public school students would receive if they were not taught fully in evolution doctrine. I can't help but think that a number of these evolutionists here are freeloaders - fully capable of paying their own way for their children, but instead ask that taxpayers support their lifestyles. its aggravating to see one expensive car after another lined up at the schools, dropping off their kids in the morning. we all need to be reminded that public school was started to give the poor a better chance and opportunity, not for the well-off to get a free ride. if the well-off would pay their own way (or if the rich kids were kicked out), then classes would be smaller, and all teachers would be better paid. who could be against that? And please don't claim that your high property taxes cover the cost - families who don't freeload on the public schools most assuredly still pay property taxes.

re: #158 Killgore Trout

I happen to think faith is overrated but some people value it. I think the key here is that he's advocating for a version of faith that is compatible with modern life. A basic understanding of biology is important but if he believes in a few ancient miracles it doesn't bother me any. It's very important for Christianity to continue being a modern religion if they want to survive.

The Pope definitely gets the survival thingy. But I still wonder how they make room for things like the Flood or Adam and Eve.
Does Ken Miller think it was all allegorical, including Jesus?

re: #147 Naso Tang

That there are problems with education is obvious, but to suggest that religion in school can cure that is ridiculous.

Just understand I am not calling for teaching religion. I am calling for better teaching about religion. My interest in the improved teaching of History. If one student in 200 later gets interested in the Theology of any religion then fine. Some meaningful understanding of concepts is important. For example if they are not aught that Medieval Christians believed that a quality of Grace (comparable but not identical to Hindu concepts of Kharma) was conferred by the Transubstantiation of the Eucharist then they can not understand what the whole Reformation was about. Big issues bearing on current politics and wars are grounded in having a basic prior knowledge. The Secondary Education of the past was really better. Worth investigating.

re: #98 AndyMacOP

It is an article of faith. Otherwise it would not be faith!

Exactly.

Charles, welcome old stick. I so enjoy your wit.

Kilgoretrout
Poe John Paul 11 may well have made condition for evolution, however, not in the way your trying to imply. He also believed, as is dogmatic teaching of the Catholic Church, that the entire Bible is true. He believed, as does Church teaching, in the devine revelation of Jesus Christ. John Paul also believed Christ will come again in final judgement.

Evenin' All,

I would like all of you to take note that Dr. Ronald Smith, was a man amongst men. He was my dear friend from the 7th grade on. Rest in peace Ron. G-d, but I loved you. I will miss you to the day I die.

re: #165 littleO

John Paul also believed Christ will come again in final judgement.
I better put my pants on !

I am not abandoning this discussion. I am however going to take care of worldly pleasures.

re: #169 lifeofthemind

I am not abandoning this discussion. I am however going to take care of worldly pleasures.

Ben and Jerry's Chunky Monkey?

re: #161 stretch

. . . I can't help but think that a number of these evolutionists here are freeloaders - fully capable of paying their own way for their children, but instead ask that taxpayers support their lifestyles. its aggravating to see one expensive car after another lined up at the schools, dropping off their kids in the morning. . . . .

Well, what's aggravating to me is that the school system where I live is so very poor, that what you see here is people like me, with a basic Toyota and living in a smaller house than what would be comfortable, so that I can afford the tuition to send my child to a private school, a Catholic school at that, where I know that her faith and religion education will not be confused with her science education.

re: #153 taxfreekiller

Of some note:

The no. 2 of the Texas R's makes a living selling Bibles.

So what?

re: #77 victor_yugo

Intelligent Design isn't about "science" or "intelligence." It's all about violating the First Amendment by using taxpayer dollars to support one religion over another.

The term "intelligent design" was coined to cover up the political agenda behind it, ...

Excellent points.

...on par with "pro-choice."

Not even close.

re: #169 lifeofthemind

I am not abandoning this discussion. I am however going to take care of worldly pleasures.

hey now

re: #149 theatheistjew

I understand that. I just find it difficult to understand how someone could be heavily into mounds and mounds of evidence when it comes to evolution, yet sort of let their guard down and believe in a lot of unprovable hocus pocus that supposedly happened 2000 years ago.

As I posted earlier, one cannot disprove or prove anything that one cannot study physically. It is faith. However, there are certain things that can be understood to be true without much difficulty. Lets start with the fact that there was an itinerant preacher roaming around Palestine 2000 years ago doing some strange stuff and pissing off the religious leaders of the day. There should be little argument there, it is noted by secular as well as Christian authors of the time.

Where there is a little gray area is the next point. This fellows followers all scattered like a bunch of scared sissies and went back to their day jobs when the local authorities had had enough of his alleged seditious preaching, only to be so moved by some strange event that they returned to preaching the message to the tune of being murdered for doing so.

Something happened 2000 years ago. Provable or unprovable, something very remarkable happened.

re: #171 reine.de.tout

Well, what's aggravating to me is that the school system where I live is so very poor, that what you see here is people like me, with a basic Toyota and living in a smaller house than what would be comfortable, so that I can afford the tuition to send my child to a private school, a Catholic school at that, where I know that her faith and religion education will not be confused with her science education.

you most certainly are to be congratulated. all public schools would be in much better shape if parents would take responsibility like you have. i advocate for a financial aid system, exactly like the one used by most public universities: fill out the form, and you pay for your own children based on your family income.

re: #162 theatheistjew

Reasonable Biblical scholarship only holds that from Abraham on are we talking about actual events and people that presumably lived. All before that is story and teaching. Basically Genesis 1-11.

re: #171 reine.de.tout

Well, what's aggravating to me is that the school system where I live is so very poor, that what you see here is people like me, with a basic Toyota and living in a smaller house than what would be comfortable, so that I can afford the tuition to send my child to a private school, a Catholic school at that, where I know that her faith and religion education will not be confused with her science education.

Wow..had to ding you up..
I went to catholic school..
/don't hold that against me..
I'm not very smart but i love reading about science..
Universetoday and galaxytoday are in my bookmarks..

re: #175 AndyMacOP

As I posted earlier, one cannot disprove or prove anything that one cannot study physically. It is faith. However, there are certain things that can be understood to be true without much difficulty. Lets start with the fact that there was an itinerant preacher roaming around Palestine 2000 years ago doing some strange stuff and pissing off the religious leaders of the day. There should be little argument there, it is noted by secular as well as Christian authors of the time.

Do we need to have this discussion again? There's a lot of argument over whether it was noted by anyone "of the time." A good part of a thread was devoted to this here a few days ago.

Where there is a little gray area is the next point. This fellows followers all scattered like a bunch of scared sissies and went back to their day jobs when the local authorities had had enough of his alleged seditious preaching, only to be so moved by some strange event that they returned to preaching the message to the tune of being murdered for doing so.

Something happened 2000 years ago. Provable or unprovable, something very remarkable happened.

As you say, that's a matter of faith.

re: #175 AndyMacOP

Actually, I believe Jesus was a myth, and I have very good reason to think this. And many historians are on my side.
I also believe the Exodus could never have happened, and Moses probably never existed as a person either.

re: #177 AndyMacOP

Reasonable Biblical scholarship only holds that from Abraham on are we talking about actual events and people that presumably lived. All before that is story and teaching. Basically Genesis 1-11.

You should watch The Bible Unearthed Video. Google it on Google Video.

Ken Miller's "Only a Theory"

vs.

Boston's "More than a Feeling"

Compare and contrast. Show your work.

re: #180 theatheistjew

I believe Jesus was a myth, and I have very good reason to think this. And many historians are on my side.

Wow. That's the first I've heard of this line of thinking.

Care to provide some sources?

WARNING! WARNING!

The guy who posted the videos is evidently a jerk, even though he was kind enough to post all this.

At the end of part 8, after the several seconds of applause, there is a 1-second image of a rather disgusting nature. You have plenty of time to stop the video after Ken finishes his lecture before the image. But you should warn people to whom you pass these!

Staggeringly OT: Anyone here ever tried the "Rosetta Stone" language learning thingamjig? If so, what did you (or y'all) think of it?

re: #183 Cognito

Zombie also knows a lot about that.

re: #161 stretch

I know a number of hard working, middle-class people who bust their butts to send their kids to private schools- Catholic schools that teach *gasp* evolution. They go without little luxuries so their kids will have a better future- they are not freeloaders. If anyone involved in this issue are "freeloaders" it might just be the other camp who is busy trying to foist ID on kids who parents might not be able to afford a private school option. Indeed- just as Ken Miller pointed out in the very first video, it is the IDers who are freeloading, wanting to bypass the scientific method to get their so-called theory put right into text books by using legislation and bureaucracies. If manipulating the state to get what you want isn't freeloading, do tell what is.

re#175 Andy
Well said.
Also remember that a son of a virgin from Nazerath was the only ' Holy Man ' in history to claim to be the Son of the living God, and also under death threat.

re: #185 Occasional Reader

Staggeringly OT: Anyone here ever tried the "Rosetta Stone" language learning thingamjig? If so, what did you (or y'all) think of it?

I stick with google..
how are ya OR?

re: #183 Cognito

Wow. That's the first I've heard of this line of thinking.

Care to provide some sources?

There was massive threadage on this topic yesterday, in fact.

re: #184 Flexaccount

Really? I watched the whole thing before and never noticed anything.

re: #183 Cognito

Wow. That's the first I've heard of this line of thinking.

Care to provide some sources?

It isn't new at all. Start with this: Bidstrup on The Bible and Christianity. It is a long page, but well worth reading.

And here are quite a few sites and discussions on the subject.

re: #180 theatheistjew

Actually, I believe Jesus was a myth, and I have very good reason to think this. And many historians are on my side.
I also believe the Exodus could never have happened, and Moses probably never existed as a person either.

So as an atheist, you do believe in somethings that cannot be proven!

;-)

re: #191 Killgore Trout

Really? I watched the whole thing before and never noticed anything.

Somethings fishy and it ain't your hat.

Flexaccount
Registered since: Jan 7, 2008 at 12:16 pm
No. of comments posted: 1
No. of links posted: 0

re: #176 stretch

you most certainly are to be congratulated. all public schools would be in much better shape if parents would take responsibility like you have. i advocate for a financial aid system, exactly like the one used by most public universities: fill out the form, and you pay for your own children based on your family income.

I don't want financial aid - my daughter's education and her faith instruction are my responsibility, and I will take care of it, and in our case, it means no public schools because the instruction is so watered down that people can graduate (and have) without knowing how to read.

And in any case, whether she attended public or private school, I would not want someone other than me or our Church teaching her faith and religion; nor would I want her science classes to include faith-based instruction packaged as science; That would serve to provide a watered-down education in science, as well as a watered-down version of faith, for all students, whether in private or public school.

I am a person of faith; and I see my faith as being perfectly compatible with science, which may make me, in your mind, an "evolutionist". Science classes, whether in public or private schools, should be science. And faith instruction should be just that, not "packaged" as science.

I just checked it out. There really is a disgusting image at the end of that tape.

re: #193 AndyMacOP

So as an atheist, you do believe in somethings that cannot be proven!

;-)

My ideas about Jesus and Moses came long after I became an atheist. I just actually started looking for a historical Jesus and Moses, and came up empty, and there were in fact, in the case of the Exodus, contrary evidence, much like the contrary evidence that exists against a young earth.
As for Jesus, it is just simple detective work that makes it very likely (not 100%) that Paul or someone like Paul invented Jesus in a dream, and then over time, more and more of the common myths of the time got attached to his story as well as turning him into a real person with a family.
It took a few generations.

re: #149 theatheistjew

I understand that. I just find it difficult to understand how someone could be heavily into mounds and mounds of evidence when it comes to evolution, yet sort of let their guard down and believe in a lot of unprovable hocus pocus that supposedly happened 2000 years ago.

AJ, I'd echo reine.du.tout's #149 and further suggest that this false dichotomy is a big part of what it seems to me Charles has been working to debunk with these posts. There are plenty of true believers of various faiths both here at LGF and elsewhere who have been staunchly advocating keeping ID out of the public schools and teaching science based on evidence rather than belief. For reasons repeated over and over again on countless threads, there's no contradiction.

You may not have intended your comment to be insulting but I think it probably could be taken that way.

/some days an AJ myself ... others just a J.

re: #191 Killgore Trout

Really? I watched the whole thing before and never noticed anything.

Right at 5:10, for one second, then "FIN" appears, at the end of the video.

re: #189 HoosierHoops

I stick with google..

Eh? You use google to learn languages?

how are ya OR?

Better, thanks. Fever is pretty much gone; cough is better, but still there, and is aggravated by talking (so I'm staying in tonight); bodyache/malaise pretty much gone; throat is a little sore.

re: #199 Flexaccount

Right at 5:10, for one second, then "FIN" appears, at the end of the video.

Yeah, it's there.

/Made me look.

I have no soul and I am without sin. There will be no battles involving me over things I do not have.

I am strangely aninmated by energy I do not understand and I have no questions for which the answers are god.

When I die I will release my energy to air and I will turn to dust. Sure, like you my ancestors were once afraid of things they did not understand. I don't carry the scars of their fear. I do not carry their feeble explanations and answers.

"We are made from the dust of the stars and the oceans flow through our veins."

re: #192 theatheistjew

Well, I click on a link, scanned, and landed on this line:

For all his influence on the world, there's better evidence that he never even existed than that he did. We have absolutely no reliable evidence, from secular sources, that Jesus ever lived...

That's a bizarre assertion. This historian Josephus mentions Jesus, for instance. So did Pliny the Younger.

And that's just off the top of my head.

This line of thought -- the idea that Jesus, even as a mortal, never existed -- seems to strain against logic itself. There is no real question, among serious historians at serious universities, that Jesus existed.

Sorry.

re: #191 Killgore Trout

Really? I watched the whole thing before and never noticed anything.

make sure you're alone in the room. 5:10 on the dot

re: #188 littleO

re#175 Andy
Well said.
Also remember that a son of a virgin from Nazerath was the only ' Holy Man ' in history to claim to be the Son of the living God, and also under death threat.

Really? I spent some time at the napa valley state mental hospital as a volunteer.. during college..but being around sick people and see that
Lots of people think they are Jesus..everyone claims the throne..
But you shall know them by their fruit..some bible scripture i llearned as a kid.
In all the history of mankind..no man has done what Jesus did..
No man..at any time.. I'm not very religious..but because of Jesus i know there is a God...
and look around..god loves science..and I'm betting he is much older that 13.7 billion years old...

re: #187 Sharmuta

re: #187 Sharmuta

I know a number of hard working, middle-class people who bust their butts to send their kids to private schools- Catholic schools that teach *gasp* evolution. They go without little luxuries so their kids will have a better future- they are not freeloaders. If anyone involved in this issue are "freeloaders" it might just be the other camp who is busy trying to foist ID on kids who parents might not be able to afford a private school option. Indeed- just as Ken Miller pointed out in the very first video, it is the IDers who are freeloading, wanting to bypass the scientific method to get their so-called theory put right into text books by using legislation and bureaucracies. If manipulating the state to get what you want isn't freeloading, do tell what is.

those hard working people who put their kids through private school at great sacrifice are to be commended. my only gripe is with the well-off, who could afford to do otherwise, instead chose to freeload on the public school system

re: #196 Pvt Bin Jammin
I hardly ever use this abbreviation but really WTF? Bizarro.

Oops. Should have been "the" historian Josephus.

re: #207 snowcrash

I hardly ever use this abbreviation but really WTF? Bizarro.

I always wondered what ever became of that weird gym teacher i had in high school. Now I know

re: #203 Cognito

Well, I click on a link, scanned, and landed on this line:

That's a bizarre assertion. This historian Josephus mentions Jesus, for instance. So did Pliny the Younger.

And that's just off the top of my head.

This line of thought -- the idea that Jesus, even as a mortal, never existed -- seems to strain against logic itself. There is no real question, among serious historians at serious universities, that Jesus existed.

Sorry.

Bad examples. Josephus observed Christians when he mentioned Jesus 60 years "after the fact"
There were many historians alive between 1-40 AD. Greeks, Romans, and Jewish historians, and yet nobody wrote a word about Jesus until 50 or 60 years afterwards?
I suggest you try to read the whole article instead of cherry picking a line you don't like.

re: #207 snowcrash

Thought I was at Zombietime! LOL Hope no youngsters are looking at that video.

re: #198 Lynn B.

AJ, I'd echo reine.du.tout's #149 and further suggest that this false dichotomy is a big part of what it seems to me Charles has been working to debunk with these posts. There are plenty of true believers of various faiths both here at LGF and elsewhere who have been staunchly advocating keeping ID out of the public schools and teaching science based on evidence rather than belief. For reasons repeated over and over again on countless threads, there's no contradiction.

You may not have intended your comment to be insulting but I think it probably could be taken that way.

/some days an AJ myself ... others just a J.

I actually thought of going a little further in my 149, but didn't but I will do so now - there have been plenty of folks here claiming that LGF is "anti-Christian", "anti-religion", etc., and I (among many others) have defended the site against that charge as much as my limited abilities would allow me to do. I would hate to think that all of that had been a wasted effort, and so I hereby promise not to try to convert any atheists; but I ask that they in turn, not try to convert me.

re: #204 sattv4u2

make sure you're alone in the room. 5:10 on the dot

Damn, zombie slipped a frame in.

re: #198 Lynn B.

I am just being myself.

re: #199 Flexaccount

Right at 5:10, for one second, then "FIN" appears, at the end of the video.

I see what you mean. What the heck is that? I paused on that frame and it's offensive, I guess, but not really explicit.

re: #211 Pvt Bin Jammin
Still haven't worked up the nerve for the new zombie report. LOL

re: #215 Charles

I see what you mean. What the heck is that? I paused on that frame and it's offensive, I guess, but not really explicit.

strange thing is, there is a lot of professional what appears to be video and audio editing equipment behind him

re: #212 reine.de.tout

I don't think Charles is anti-religious or anti-Christian, but it doesn't mean that some of us care to walk on eggshells and walk the party line.
I can't help myself, but mocking religion whether it is Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. has become second nature to me.

re: #216 snowcrash

Still bleaching my eyes here, and I looked at the blurred version.

re: #200 Occasional Reader

Better, thanks. Fever is pretty much gone; cough is better, but still there, and is aggravated by talking (so I'm staying in tonight); bodyache/malaise pretty much gone; throat is a little sore.

Mieux, merci. La fièvre est à peu près disparu, la toux est meilleure, mais encore là, et est aggravée par parler (donc je suis rester dans ce soir); bodyache / malaise à peu près disparu, la gorge est un peu mal.

/ i told google to turn your words into french...
cool huh?
I'm glad you are feeling better

re: #199 Flexaccount

Right at 5:10, for one second, then "FIN" appears, at the end of the video.

OH, yeah. You were right. Yech.

re: #179 Lynn B.

I get a little itchy about this. Many of the same people who would say there was no Jesus of Nazareth would also say there was no Julius Caesar, no Aristotle or no Alexander the Great, etc. Why does the existence of a person named Jesus son of Joseph get so much attention?

I will tell you why, because if he does exist, then his existence requires a very real response and a certain amount a fear about what lays beyond the end of earthly life. The words attributed to him are marvelous and life changing. They are full of love and full of truth. Read them! At the very least, they have inspired millions of people to not hate and to care for one another. Where his words are ignored and ridiculed, you will find pain, suffering and death.

I ask again: why is it so necessary for Jesus of Nazareth not to have existed?

re: #210 theatheistjew

Bad examples. Josephus observed Christians when he mentioned Jesus 60 years "after the fact"
There were many historians alive between 1-40 AD. Greeks, Romans, and Jewish historians, and yet nobody wrote a word about Jesus until 50 or 60 years afterwards?
I suggest you try to read the whole article instead of cherry picking a line you don't like.

Right. So we're looking at a theory of ancient conspiracy, then?

I'll file that with the same respect I accord modern conspiracy theories.

And all those scholars, at all those universities? All taken in by Josephus and his cohorts?

re: #218 sattv4u2
Please don't make me go back and look. My overall impression was of a man in pink naughty nighty attached to a cow milking machine?...but I may be wrong. LOL

re: #225 snowcrash

Please don't make me go back and look. My overall impression was of a man in pink naughty nighty attached to a cow milking machine?...but I may be wrong. LOL

clean up isle 3

re: #203 Cognito

Sigh. Maybe Zombie will show up and clarify this herself, as she has done at least a few times already. Or you could just go over and scan the Alvis Delk thread from about #558 on down.

#558 zombie 7/31/2008 2:10:19 pm PDT

re: #539 godfrey

Not true. Cf. Josephus, Pliny, and others.

Not this again!

The Josephus reference was a later interpolation added centuries after the fact. It's not in the original version. I.e. it's a known fake. They even know the name of the monk who added it. The Pliny reference could have referred to any number of charismatic messiah types running around in that era.

I know many classical scholars. Believe me, they all agree that there are no verifiable references to Jesus Christ outside of the Christian Gospels.

Which of course has no bearing on anyone's belief because evidence is NOT necessary for faith.

re: #223 AndyMacOP

I ask again: why is it so necessary for Jesus of Nazareth not to have existed?

Why is it so necessary for him to have existed?

You live your fantasy, I'll live reality.

/driveby

re: #199 Flexaccount

I'll be damned, you're right.

re: #215 Charles

Very "Fight Club". It's a Tyler Durden thing.

That quick clip is weird. What a freak! WTF slips crap like that into a video?

re: #224 Cognito

Right. So we're looking at a theory of ancient conspiracy, then?

Er, no. The point atheistjew was making is that the evidence for the existence of "historical Jesus" is thin.

For the record (whatever that means), I also find it unlikely that the "mythological Jesus" was entirely made up out of whole cloth, and not based on *someone* (or possibly more than one person).

re: #163 lifeofthemind

Just understand I am not calling for teaching religion. I am calling for better teaching about religion. My interest in the improved teaching of History. If one student in 200 later gets interested in the Theology of any religion then fine. Some meaningful understanding of concepts is important. For example if they are not aught that Medieval Christians believed that a quality of Grace (comparable but not identical to Hindu concepts of Kharma) was conferred by the Transubstantiation of the Eucharist then they can not understand what the whole Reformation was about. Big issues bearing on current politics and wars are grounded in having a basic prior knowledge. The Secondary Education of the past was really better. Worth investigating.

Ah, buffet-style history, in other words.

re: #223 AndyMacOP

It isn't necessary for Jesus to have existed or not. But the reality is that there is no evidence that he did exist.

re: #227 Lynn B.

It's just a remarkable assertion, I believe. Absolutely remarkable, the expectation of physical evidence from a time when people left no such thing as physical evidence behind... Do you believe Herod Antipas existed? Sure, there's a great deal of record, because he was a ruler.

What about Herod's favorite athlete?

Herod's mailman?

The guy who lived across Herod's street?

What's that? No evidence?

re: #233 Salem

Ah, buffet-style history, in other words.

Or, buffet-style faith, in other words.

re: #223 AndyMacOP

I get a little itchy about this. Many of the same people who would say there was no Jesus of Nazareth would also say there was no Julius Caesar, no Aristotle or no Alexander the Great, etc. Why does the existence of a person named Jesus son of Joseph get so much attention?

I will tell you why, because if he does exist, then his existence requires a very real response and a certain amount a fear about what lays beyond the end of earthly life. The words attributed to him are marvelous and life changing. They are full of love and full of truth. Read them! At the very least, they have inspired millions of people to not hate and to care for one another. Where his words are ignored and ridiculed, you will find pain, suffering and death.

I ask again: why is it so necessary for Jesus of Nazareth not to have existed?

Andy, I understand what you're saying and it frankly is neither necessary nor unnecessary. To me, personally, it's irrelevant. And that's a matter of my faith. I'll echo reine.du.tout yet again. I'm not trying to convert anyone here to my faith nor do I wish to be converted to anyone else's. Thanks.

re: #224 Cognito

Right. So we're looking at a theory of ancient conspiracy, then?

I'll file that with the same respect I accord modern conspiracy theories.

And all those scholars, at all those universities? All taken in by Josephus and his cohorts?

You haven't had time to read the bidstrup paper after asking for a link.
Again, there is a huge disbelief now amongst many historians about a historical Jesus.
Are you going to ask for another link, or are you going to read what I gave you, and then discuss it?

re: #167 sattv4u2

John Paul also believed Christ will come again in final judgement.
I better put my pants on !

I don't think He minds. Wasn't Christ a "free-baller?

re: #232 Occasional Reader

Er, no. The point atheistjew was making is that the evidence for the existence of "historical Jesus" is thin.

For the record (whatever that means), I also find it unlikely that the "mythological Jesus" was entirely made up out of whole cloth, and not based on *someone* (or possibly more than one person).

Oh, if no such person as Jesus existed, and yet just a few years later a whole community of followers had spread around the known world -- well, we are indeed looking at an ancient conspiracy. A conspiracy to pretend a man existed when he did not, and persuade people of his worthiness.

re: #236 reine.de.tout

Or, buffet-style faith, in other words.

Ayuh...

re: #236 reine.de.tout

Or, buffet-style faith, in other words.

Warren or Jimmy?

re: #230 Killgore Trout

Very "Fight Club". It's a Tyler Durden thing.

That's what my husband said.

Now we'll have to watch all of that guy's videos to see if any other images have been inserted.

/Or not.

re: #237 Lynn B.

I'm not trying to convert anyone here to my faith nor do I wish to be converted to anyone else's.

I really think that's at the heart of this issue. Most of us at LGF do not want the islamofascists "reverting' us by the sword, and we also don't want anyone else using science or whatever else to convert us to any other faith. I think mostly we're all people who are comfortable with our faith and just want to be left alone in that regard.

re: #238 theatheistjew

You haven't had time to read the bidstrup paper after asking for a link.
Again, there is a huge disbelief now amongst many historians about a historical Jesus.
Are you going to ask for another link, or are you going to read what I gave you, and then discuss it?

I'll take a look at it, but the very notion itself flies against a great deal of serious study. I'm talking about study by scholars at Harvard, Yale, Oxford, in Cairo, in Jerusalem -- take your pick.

Do you have an equivalent source, not originating from a "Gay Cowboy Ring Site"?

re: #243 Josephine

That's what my husband said.

Now we'll have to watch all of that guy's videos to see if any other images have been inserted.

/Or not.

I checked through the comments on YouTube. It would appear that there is only the one image, in this set of videos.

A number of people asked if it could be removed, but got no answer.

re: #240 Cognito

Million of people believed the James Frey story, even in today's media information age. It took the Smoking Gun to disprove it and James Frey was proven to be a complete Fraud.
I suggest you read the Bidstrup article. It didn't take a conspiracy to invent Jesus.

And so it goes.

re: #235 Cognito

Good try, Cog, but I'm not biting. Go read Zombie's comments (and, oops, I see I characterized him/her as a woman above ... my perception of that constantly changes) on the Alvis Delk thread. Zombie has this well covered and I'm not going to try to duplicate the effort. Anyway, I've got a steak waiting for the grill and wine to open.

Later.

re: #245 Cognito

I'll take a look at it, but the very notion itself flies against a great deal of serious study. I'm talking about study by scholars at Harvard, Yale, Oxford, in Cairo, in Jerusalem -- take your pick.

Do you have an equivalent source, not originating from a "Gay Cowboy Ring Site"?

Gay Cowboy? Just read the story. Again any scholar you may quote has absolutely no contemporary evidence for a historical Jesus, and that is a fact.

re: #246 Flexaccount

Strange.

If it was reported and not deleted, that suggests the YouTube folks didn't watch it to the very end.

re: #237 Lynn B.

Well, ok, but I belong to the Order of Preachers, so you do the math!

;-)

Time to eat!

re: #250 theatheistjew

Gay Cowboy? Just read the story. Again any scholar you may quote has absolutely no contemporary evidence for a historical Jesus, and that is a fact.

And there we have it. "Your scholars don't have the mojo my scholar has."

Well, atheistjew, if what the best scholars say doesn't matter, then we cannot even define the field, here. Much less debate it.

re: #240 Cognito

Oh, if no such person as Jesus existed, and yet just a few years later a whole community of followers had spread around the known world -- well, we are indeed looking at an ancient conspiracy. A conspiracy to pretend a man existed when he did not, and persuade people of his worthiness.

The story of Jesus has many similarities to the story of Mithras. Mithraism was a very popular religion in Rome at the time. The Vatican was built on the ruin of a temple to Mithra. Christian added an anti-Roman aspect to their version and made it more contemporary.

I like what my holy land tour guides used to say when people said that King David didn't exist or Moses, or Jericho, or Jesus.

The more crap they dig out of the ground in the Middle East, the more it proves the Bible to be right.

Of course, you can pile on as you wish and I'll get the hell out. It's pretty clear I don't belong here anymore.

re: #249 Lynn B.

Lynn, check out my Judeophobe Watch site. You might get a kick out of it.

re: #123 littleO

Yawn.
I've an alternative suggestion. Offer religion classes as an purely elective course for those who wish to learn all measures of thought/comparisons. Those who do not wish to have their intelligence challenged needn't waste their time.
I believe Texas schools are going to do just that.

Passive aggressive and pissy, as well as insulting. Good job.

re: #253 Cognito

And there we have it. "Your scholars don't have the mojo my scholar has."

Well, atheistjew, if what the best scholars say doesn't matter, then we cannot even define the field, here. Much less debate it.

First off, you are claiming victory without providing a link, and secondly you didn't read the link I provided.
You are starting to annoy me because I think your mind is made up.
Don't forget, for 40 years, I assumed that Jesus and Moses were real people, until I did objective investigation to find out more about them.

re: #251 Josephine

Strange.

If it was reported and not deleted, that suggests the YouTube folks didn't watch it to the very end.

I don't think anyone actually reported it to YouTube, they just complained to the "author" in the comments.

re: #170 sattv4u2

Ben and Jerry's Chunky Monkey?

Have political issues with B&J, this was Breyer's chocolate mint.

re: #260 lifeofthemind