See what just a pinch of common sense brings!

Hudna, stay vigilant.

Perhaps the AKP were just testing their hand only to find out it's not as strong as they thought it was- there are still defenders of secularism in Turkey.

Hopefully- it stays that way.

Of course, if I were to postulate that this ruling would be met with explosive violence, I would be guilty of political incorrectness.

OT: they're going to try to launch again in 10 minutes
/sorry for the very early ot

If they can do it in Turkey, they can do it in Dearborn!

“The head scarf issue is not on our agenda now,” Cicek told NTV television in an interview.

Yeah once we gain more power we'll do away with this silly Democracy nonsense

OT:2 minutes

OT:30 seconds....

Fuck yeah!

re: #7 pegcity

That's what I think- sure hope Gulen and his ilk don't buy off any of Turkey's constitutional judges- or worse.

Back in the late Fifties, you never saw scarfs and black robes in the cities. but in some villages you could still see women wearing black scarfs and robes and even an occasional veiled woman. One military wife said she couldn't wait to get back to the city because living in the villages was stifling.

Still Turkey then seemed to be more modern than medieval so while the Islamists are making inroads, the military will never permit it without a major upheaval.

It's a constant struggle for Turkey and hopefully the EU will keep its damned nose out of that struggle. The military still considers itself the protector of Turkish democracy; it's stepped in before and will do it again.

crappy camera on that rocket.

It's too bad Nasa wasn't a private venture

oops

I think the rocket blew up

Uh oh...

Nah- these idiots will just start undermining society by using civil disobedience. So they lost in gov't? That just means time to shift to a different venue.

re: #13 Shug

Damn, the webcam feed just messed up again.

forget the rocket. who is the babe rocket reporter?

"Anomaly on the vehicle" is never good.

Turkey will go Islamist, just like Lebanon, and Iran. Islam will see too it.

re: #12 Olderthandirt

I feel Turkey is on the edge of a knife with men like Gulen, Harun Yahya, and the AKP trying to force them back towards islamism. If islam is ever going to succeed in living in a secular society and moderating itself I feel Turkey must hold the line and be an example.

Hey all y'all - good news this; I was VERY concerned after Turkey's high court didn't ban the ruling party outright earlier this past week.
Still and all, I'm still concerned about the Islamic nature of the ruling party.
Isn't Turkey part of NATO? If Turkey became to be ruled by Sharia law and governed by an out and out Islamic government, I wonder what NATO would do?

OT: McCain and N.Y. Times continue a long-running bout

Goldfarb compared the editors to a blogger "sitting at home in his mother's basement and ranting into the ether between games of Dungeons & Dragons."

This is actually pretty funny stuff. Looks like McCain's mean side is coming out and it is funny.

Also, I just got my Folio Society edition of The Wit of Oscar Wilde today and have been reading it off and on as I stain my deck. My favorite Oscar Wilde quote thus far, from Personal Impressions of America:

It is well worth one's while to go to a country which can teach us the beauty of the word FREEDOM and the value of the thing LIBERTY.

re: #22 pegcity

Turkey will go Islamist, just like Lebanon, and Iran. Islam will see too it.

Islam has only three options:

Theocracy -- the imams and mullahs push until they get their way, as the regular folks yield out of fear or reverence.

Secular police state -- the only way to keep the mullahs down is by intimidation and brute force.

Failed state -- the transitional state between the other two.

re: #24 realwest

If Turkey became to be ruled by Sharia law and governed by an out and out Islamic government, I wonder what NATO would do?

Probably nothing. NATO is only slightly more useful than the UN.

re: #26 stevieray I think you're right my friend, but THE ruling "party" in Turkey since it became a republic in the 1920's has always been the military and - just like our military takes an oath to protect Turkey's constitution which provides for Secular law.
So I don't see Turkey going Islamic as long as the Military retains it's might and follows it's oath.

I think this should be the mandatory headwear.

I don't think I've ever seen LGF this quiet on a Satrday night.

Is Turkey still trying to get into the EU? In about 10 years, the EU will probably be given to the islamists, so Turkey won't have anything to worry about. England, France, and Scandinavia need to wake up! PC will doom us all.

re: #28 realwest

The Turkish military and Israel have a good working relationship, that is encouraging, Now the Turkish Governement and Israel who knows.

What are we drinking?

Jim Beam and Lemonade here.

re: #30 Cartman

The weather is actually pretty nice out here in Chicagoland. I can hear the bands at Lolla playing from Grant Park. My wife said they were sold out!

KT - what happened to the Spacex rocket?

So, someone stands up to them and they back down, eh.

I guess that's a better idea than dialogue with no preconditions.

re: #33 Racer X

What are we drinking?

Jim Beam and Lemonade here.

Just opened my 5th Sam Adams Boston Lager

re: #27 Sharmuta
Well certainly NATO has fallen since the fall of the USSR, but there are still SOME countries in NATO that are on our side - and in fact fighting alongside us in Afghanistan (Canada is the one that leaps to mind - they actually go out and hunt and kill the Taliban; the Germans not so much, and other NATO members such as Great Britain and Denmark are also doing some of the heavy lifting over there, iirc).
But since most member states are small and haven't bothered to devote much of their GNP to military spending, NATO is sort of a toothless tiger, with, as I mentioned, some notable exceptions.

re: #2 de La Valette

Hudna, stay vigilant.

Yes indeed. Still, our side won a round, and with things the way they are, that's worth raising a glass over.

re: #28 realwest

I think you're right my friend, but THE ruling "party" in Turkey since it became a republic in the 1920's has always been the military and - just like our military takes an oath to protect Turkey's constitution which provides for Secular law.
So I don't see Turkey going Islamic as long as the Military retains it's might and follows it's oath.

But since the military draws its recruits from the general population, and the general population has been getting more and more religious as time goes by, eventually they will no longer be able to keep the Islamists out of their ranks...

Turkey's military has had to step in and take control of the government four times since the end of WWII, each time it was to remove an elected Islamic party from power.

Secularism is maintained only through force, or threat of force... not a health democracy by any stretch.

re: #35 Racer X

my guess is it went boom like a North Korean ICBM

re: #33 Racer X

Just had myself a can of Miller Light left over from a beer pong tournament. Not my drink of choice, but it reminds me of home (Milwaukee).

re: #38 realwest

the dutch do also, they also have apaches

re: #30 Cartman Hey my friend - we had some really bad T-Storms and Lightning up until about an hour ago so I was off the net and off the computer until just a while ago!
How are ya doing tonight?

re: #40 stevieray

I don't think time is on their side

re: #33 Racer X

What are we drinking?

.

fat tire
amber ale

re: #37 saberry0530

Nice.

Someone mentioned He'Brew here a few days ago. I tried the Messiah Bold yesterday and thought it was damn tasty!

re: #38 realwest

I know there are some helping us in Afghanistan, and we need them very much. But, iirc, part of the charter of NATO is to consider an attack on one to be an attack on all. Put in context of 9/11, Madrid and London, it's hard to see how other member states take these attacks seriously. Heck- the UK and Spain seem to hardly take them seriously.

As you said- toothless tiger. As I said- only slightly better than the UN.

re: #33 Racer X

What are we drinking?

Jim Beam and Lemonade here.

Some kind of caberbnet

re: #44 realwest

I'm Ok, R-Dubs. Got yer e-mail, and will reply, probably tomorrow. Glad your 'puter didn't get zapped!

re: #46 swamprat

fat tire - amber ale

One of my favorites!

re: #33 Racer X

Killian's Irish Red

re: #46 swamprat

Meant to pick up some Anchor Steam when I was out today, good stuff.

Hey, is zombie around? I wanted to give hir this backgrounder on the link between Miller Brewing and the Glatt-kosher Bacon Lettuce & Tomato (GBLT) community.

Synopsis: It goes all the way back to 1990, when ACTUP called for a gay boycott of Miller beer as a very very indirect way of getting at Jesse Helms!

At the time, Marlboro maker Philip Morris was also the parent company of Miller, and PM gave generously to Helms, who needless to say had a lot of tobacco farmers among his constituents. Although it's unlikely that ACTUP's "boycott" made the smallest dent in Miller sales, the company reacted to the public-relations threat by courting GBLT consumers more and more overtly in the years that followed. And it paid off -- Miller now enjoys a great deal of brand loyalty in the Community, or at least among GBLT beer drinkers who prefer insipid mass-market pilsners.

LGF search results for Gulen

This guy and his movement are making alliances with the AKP. The AKP is also drawing support from Harun Yahya.

re: #40 stevieray Well you're right about the "healthy" democracy, but Islamists have been trying to get into the Turkish military for decades now and so far the Military has held fast - in fact, as recently as 1999 or maybe 1997 the Turkish military threw out the government because of the government's Islamic bent. The Turkish Military be some mean mofo's and especially the officer corps - I don't see the Islamiscists getting control of the Military any time in the near future.

re: #48 Sharmuta

I know there are some helping us in Afghanistan, and we need them very much. But, iirc, part of the charter of NATO is to consider an attack on one to be an attack on all. Put in context of 9/11, Madrid and London, it's hard to see how other member states take these attacks seriously. Heck- the UK and Spain seem to hardly take them seriously.

As you said- toothless tiger. As I said- only slightly better than the UN.

Unfortunately, from watching Euro Peons for almost 50 years, my opinion is that they'll suck off the US teat as long as we let them, and then start another world war.

re: #47 Racer X

Nice.

Someone mentioned He'Brew here a few days ago. I tried the MESSIAH BOLD yesterday and thought it was damn tasty!

Not familiar with that font. Is that like Olde Times Roman ?

re: #55 Sharmuta

I bet president Obama would let him fly into Turkey like Chirac did with Khomeni

OT. SLP LGTAS:

Gaza death toll rises to 9; 88 injured

Published: 08.02.08, 23:48 / Israel News

Hamas forces on Saturday battled Fatah gunmen with mortars and machine guns in a crowded Gaza City neighborhood, leaving nine dead and 88 wounded in one of Gaza's bloodiest rounds of internal fighting since Hamas seized the territory more than a year ago.

Twelve of the wounded were children, hospital officials said. (AP)

re: #59 pegcity "I bet president Obama would let him fly him into Turkey personally."
There, fixed that for ya!

re: #56 realwest

Hope you are right, real!

re: #60 looking closely

More on Palestinian-on-Palestinian violence in Gaza:

More than 180 Palestinians fleeing Gaza transfer into Israel

Published: 08.02.08, 23:28 / Israel News

More than 180 Palestinians fleeing the Saturday clashes between the Fatah-affiliated Hilles clan and Hamas’ security forces in the Gaza Strip, have made it across the security fence into Israel.

Sixteen injured Palestinians have been evacuated to the Barzilai and Soroka medical centers, two of them in severe medical condition. (Hanan Greenberg)

re: #58 swamprat

Not familiar with that font. Is that like Olde Times Roman ?

No, more like Beer Glass

re: #62 stevieray
ME TOO! LOL!

re: #63 looking closely

And more on this story:
IDF soldiers rescue Fatah soldiers at request of Abbas.

Ouch.

re: #63 looking closely

So what they need 2 states?

re: #35 Racer X

I don't know.

I apologize for that post. Our NATO allies deserve better than that and I should never have said that. A lot of our allies are pulling more than their load.

re: #68 Killgore Trout

I don't know.

I was just checking the wires... nothing about it yet.

re: #63 looking closely

More on Palestinian-on-Palestinian violence in Gaza:

It's not a civil war.
/msm

re: #69 Shay4l

I apologize for that post. Our NATO allies deserve better than that and I should never have said that. A lot of our allies are pulling more than their load.

I don't know if it's "a lot." Maybe a few.

re: #66 looking closely
Oh, wow, that's gotta smart! And some of the Fatah gunmen were treated at Israeli hospitals too (according to your link)!

re: #70 stevieray

The last webcam images looked to be about 70-80,000 feet then blank.

re: #71 Tigger2005

The palis remind me of a pack of wild dogs fighting over the leftover scraps of a half eaten turkey.

Ah, new thread >

re: #74 Killgore Trout

The last webcam images looked to be about 70-80,000 feet then blank.

They then cut away to the control room, said something about an anomaly, and the ran some credits thanking NASA and others...

Most people don't understand the import of Turkey's secularism. They were the Caliphate before Kemal Attaturk came. Hizb Ut Tahrir marched in several major Islamic cities just a couple days back to mourn the lost Caliphate and denounce the Kemalists.

Turkey is the black sheep of the Sunni world: Democratic, Economically successful, and Islamic at the same time.

Undermining the military & courts by opposing the EU admission was something the far right in Europe sucks for. That allowed the win by AKP. Of course the far right VB types like that, they don't want peace, they want the confrontation so they will have an excuse to expell the immigrants.

So instead of continuing the westernization of the last vestige of the last caliphate, they re-lit the fires of Islamism in Turkey and gave it a second life.

re: #77 stevieray

NASA's gonna be pissed if they bolwed up their satellites.

It is sad that headscarves mean so much, but they do. In Eastern Europe, the little old ladies still wear headscarves, but it's pure custom and not laden with any deeper meaning. It can be practical in addition to being a sign of modesty, keeping the hair in one place, keeping sweat off the brow, hiding grey hairs. But with Islam it takes on a whole different dimension, even though nowhere in the Koran or Haddiths does it stipulate that women must cover their heads (much less their entire bodies).

I would love to chuck the whole headscarf thing out the window, but one cannot when it comes to Islam. It is a symbol. It is a symbol of oppression of women and defiance toward anything Western. This is true in the Middle East as well as in the West. In the West, the headscarf also suggests willful separation from the host society, not just defiance of imported Western depravity.

The headscarf is the little inch given to Islamists that makes them want another inch, and then a foot, then a yard and then a mile. While it is hard to defend, as an American with our libertarian streak, Attaturk's decision to ban the headscarf from all public institutions and France's decision to ban headscarves from school, they know well that to not ban it invites a far worse possibility: absolute Islamification, inch-by-inch.

CAIR knows this. Why is that "headscarf" issues are one of their main litigation specialties? Acceptance of the headscarf, and the oppression and separation legitimized by that, is just a step in Islamification.

re: #75 pegcity

The palis remind me of a pack of wild dogs fighting over the leftover scraps of a half eaten turkey.

There's nothing left of Palestinian culture but an over-weened sense of entitlement and a stream of international welfare payments.

re: #77 stevieray "an anomaly" now there's two words you really don't want to hear when there's a rocket launch!

re: #82 realwest

they either work or they blow up. Its a cylinder full of explosive fuel.

re: #69 Shay4l

I apologize for that post. Our NATO allies deserve better than that and I should never have said that. A lot of our allies are pulling more than their load.

Canada has stepped back some from the brink of reflexive anti-American pacifism. There is still an enormous amount to do. Our doughty ally to the North seems to be closer to Civil War at times than any place in Europe. The Human Rights commissions are still a real threat to liberty. Insanely open immigration policies have resulted in an entrenched subversive threat. While the Canadians are making a good show in Afghanistan and talking about defending the North their armed forces are simply pathetically small given their population, financial capacity, global interests and territorial expanse. The best news is that Quebec seems relatively quiet these days.

re: #47 Racer X

Someone mentioned He'Brew here a few days ago. I tried the Messiah Bold yesterday and thought it was damn tasty!

Was it here?

re: #78 Thanos

Gotta disagree with some of that, Thanos.

The Kemalists have been losing ground to the Islamists for decades. Blaming the internal events of Turkey on the EU rejection is a bit deceptive -- it may have been a rallying point, and a nascent theocratic movement may be growing there, but the ground was already plowed and fertilized well in advance.

All of the events in the world are not simply a reaction to America, Israel, and the West -- nations follow paths largely of their own making.

re: #81 stevieray

And they are Jordanians to begin with. None of their arab brethren will take them back, while tiny Israel, the size of the state of NJ, is supposed to?

And the world weeps for the poor, displaced arabs, who left Israel on advice of IIRC, Arafart's uncle, the not so grand Muhti, as they intended to send the Jews who had survived the Holocaust, and came to Israel, the Jewish homeland, when so many countries, even knowing about the Holocaust, would not take them in, just as they would not before the war.

I have not one grain of sympathy for them. Not one. Israel is the Jewish homeland, with Jerusalem it's capital, undivided. It is not man's to give away.

I was 10 years old when the modern State of Israel was proclaimed. 60 years ago this year, and still the world does not want to recognize it.

Tough.

re: #22 pegcity

Turkey will go Islamist, just like Lebanon, and Iran. Islam will see too it.

I hope you are wrong, but Turkey has been a Long time secular, and have an education system different than what Lebenon and Iran had. I am more worried about pakistan turning into a caliphate. India and Afghanstan would pay a heavy price....

The Turks were the only soldiers the Koreans feared in the 'Police Action' of the '50s.
The reason is the training methods the Army uses. Basically, the soldiers were more afraid of their noncoms than anything the enemy might do.
The Turkish Army is not PC. If a soldier makes the smallest mistake, the nearest noncom hits him as hard as he can. The smarter soldiers literally jump to attention and wait to get hit again. The dumb ones complain.

Ataturk was one smart fellow. He knew that no one can serve two masters. By making religion secondary to the civil authority, rather than the other way around as most Islamic countries do things, he maintained
a form of control that is simply not possible in a country like Saudi Arabia, for example.

The Turkish Army is fiercely loyal to the Spirit of the Constitution, and is the greatest national resource Turkey has.

Ataturk also knew of the piranha approach of nibble, nibble, nibble. He outlawed even the small things, (like the scarves) to stop the process
early on. I wish that we had been so smart.

In the early '60s, women in the villages wore head-to-toe black dresses, but no veils. I'm pretty sure veils were outlawed. They spent so much
of their lives bent over that many of them were unable to stand up straight.

Comment from left field ( sorry)

What really REALLY bugs me about the whole headscarf thing is
1) It's not about modesty. If you wanted to cover up - there are a million ways from hats to snoods to hoodies.
2) If you want to wear modest REGIONAL dress - you still wouldn't wear the Moo-rag. You could wear classic TURKISH dress, which is beautiful and comfortable and... not that far off from normal.

The hag-bag is an import. (Of desert survival gear. It's like wearing a bio-hazard suit to a dinner party.)
The Italian-table-cloth bread-wrap scarf is something low class rubes used to use to wipe off camels. (Think of going around wearing a car-wash rag for a hat.)
This isn't Turkish, it isn't even Turkish-Muslim.
That stuff is mad-man invented.

Dead serious here. (Costume historian background.) Look at any classic portrait of the region's women. (Yes - there are some - even if Islamic art isn't fond of the portrait.) Look at old ethnographic sources. Turkish dress for women was a fitted coat thing ( low necked and knee length) over a blouse ( fairly low, usually )and baggy pants gathered at the knee. Plus a round hat with very flimsy veil-thing that mostly hung under the chin. Plus, of course, as much bling as you could spring for.

re: #90 missykrissy
Good post. Upding

What a strange thought. "Turkish Rulers "as opposed to voters. But it appears the phraseology may be right.
The Ottomans did so well last time around. /
Without Christian mercenaries and enablers, they would have been stuck in the old USSR. Never made it beyond the isthmus. And then would have been driven back to Asia.

Purdah was alive and kicking back in the late Fifties in the villages but not in the cities. The army is the glue that binds Turkey. However, all it would take would be for someone to cut off the head of the military and the various army commands and then who knows. The colonels are a major factor and if they hold true to the military's belief in kemalism, Turkey can survive as partially democratic country. The Turkish Army has a good NCO tradition and the private Turk soldier is tough as nails and obeys orders.

re: #66 looking closely

And more on this story:
IDF soldiers rescue Fatah soldiers at request of Abbas.

Ouch.

"l-c" -

Ouch is right. Who are the members of this family that the IDF is detailed to "save their bacon" as it were. Anybody know?

-S-

As Pakistan & Lebanon are lost, so too is Turkey.

In the "Dune" series, following the Fremen Jihad and conquest of the known universe, it becomes fashionable throughout the Empire to wear non-functioning stillsuits.

/A Dune geek who HATED those stillsuits with no head or face covering from the movie and tv versions--the water loss! Blasphemous!

re: #90 missykrissy

Comment from left field ( sorry)

What really REALLY bugs me about the whole headscarf thing is
1) It's not about modesty. If you wanted to cover up - there are a million ways from hats to snoods to hoodies.
2) If you want to wear modest REGIONAL dress - you still wouldn't wear the Moo-rag. You could wear classic TURKISH dress, which is beautiful and comfortable and... not that far off from normal.

The hag-bag is an import. (Of desert survival gear. It's like wearing a bio-hazard suit to a dinner party.)
The Italian-table-cloth bread-wrap scarf is something low class rubes used to use to wipe off camels. (Think of going around wearing a car-wash rag for a hat.)
This isn't Turkish, it isn't even Turkish-Muslim.
That stuff is mad-man invented.

Dead serious here. (Costume historian background.) Look at any classic portrait of the region's women. (Yes - there are some - even if Islamic art isn't fond of the portrait.) Look at old ethnographic sources. Turkish dress for women was a fitted coat thing ( low necked and knee length) over a blouse ( fairly low, usually )and baggy pants gathered at the knee. Plus a round hat with very flimsy veil-thing that mostly hung under the chin. Plus, of course, as much bling as you could spring for.

re: #89 BartB

The Turks were the only soldiers the Koreans feared in the 'Police Action' of the '50s.

re: #93 Olderthandirt

the private Turk soldier is tough as nails and obeys orders

(in late, and for no good reason)

The Turkish Brigade acted as rear guard during the retreat from the Yalu, thereby saving the rest of the UN forces. Turkish units were surrounded, and ran out of ammunition. They picked up Chinese weapons and used them, and made bayonet charges to break the encirclements. They brought their wounded out.

American medics treating wounded Turks would probe to determine if the patient felt pain here or there. The Turks didn't respond ... WOULDN'T respond, until ordered by their NCOs and officers to cooperate.

re: #97 pre-Boomer Marine brat

(in late, and for no good reason)

The Turkish Brigade acted as rear guard during the retreat from the Yalu, thereby saving the rest of the UN forces. Turkish units were surrounded, and ran out of ammunition. They picked up Chinese weapons and used them, and made bayonet charges to break the encirclements. They brought their wounded out.

American medics treating wounded Turks would probe to determine if the patient felt pain here or there. The Turks didn't respond ... WOULDN'T respond, until ordered by their NCOs and officers to cooperate.

Korean War story, may even be true.
American HQ was upset that the S-2 (Intel) staff was unhappy that they didn't have enough paper to play with because the attached Turkish unit wasn't sending prisoners to the rear for processing. So the American Colonel called up the Turkish Colonel and passed on an order that the next prisoner was to be delivered to the Americans at their HQ a few miles away. Shortly after a Turkish patrol brings in a prisoner. The Turkish Colonel stands up and announces "Our American Allies need our prisoners. I will personally deliver this prisoner to my friends the Americans." The Colonel gets in the jeep. The Colonels driver gets in the jeep. The machine gun operator gets in the jeep. The Colonels translator gets in the jeep. A jeep has exactly four seats. What to do with the prisoner? No problem a rope was tied one end on him and the other on the rear bumper while the machine gun operator kept an eye on him. The jeep moved very slowly so the prisoner could keep up, for most of the way. Bad roads they had in Korea. The Americans did not trouble the Turks again about prisoners.

Hard to believe that they threw in the towel so easily.

re: #12 Olderthandirt

Still Turkey then seemed to be more modern than medieval so while the Islamists are making inroads, the military will never permit it without a major upheaval.

Bingo, and Turkey's military aren't people to mess around with at all.

There has been an investigation into the constitutional validity of the ruling, Islamist party of Turkey, ironically named the AK party. I believe this is them trying to pander to the state whose judges are now reviewing the very validity of their party.