animals are people, too !

When we catch them, can we put them in Guantanamo Bay?

As long as it's not for cosmetics, and is specifically for medical research, I have no problem with it.

Of course "Animal rights" terrorists never get sick, so they need no medication.

Wasn't there an Onion article: "PETA operatives slaughter 40, rescue rabbit"?

News flash! It is the FBI investigating this, not the locals. These ALF/ELF asshats have no idea of who is looking for them. Heh.

Enemies of Human Kind.

Should be dealt with as wolves are...

re: #6 The Other Les

Enemies of Human Kind.

Should be dealt with as wolves are...

Er,..........watch it w/ the nasty wolf references, buddy!

Being a scientist shouldn't require hazard pay.

This violence....or, what is usually the case, the threat of violence against anyone working with animals in research is a much bigger problem than the MSM would lead us to believe.
There's a reason why a lot of profs in biology have abandoned their land phones. They get tired of the threatening phone calls.

I agree 100% with these "activists"

The UCSC researchers should go down to the Santa Cruz boardwalk, round up some hopped up hippies and take them back for the experiments.

It was only a matter of time before they'd start doing things that could kill people.

It is all in the name of a more peaceful world, so it is OK.

I live in this area and am happy it finally made the news.

This is the same mentality that extremist Anti-Abortionists use to shoot doctors, or Environmentalists use to Torch a sales lot full of SUVs. Mentally divergent and useful idiots for a larger agenda.

re: #10 FreakyBoy

I agree 100% with these "activists"

The UCSC researchers should go down to the Santa Cruz boardwalk, round up some hopped up hippies and take them back for the experiments.

Sadly, they're not useful even if they volunteered; too full of foreign substances already.

re: #4 Diamond Bullet

Wasn't there an Onion article: "PETA operatives slaughter 40, rescue rabbit"?

Leave the mice alone!

These people are not really motivated by a love of animals so much as they are by a hatred for humanity.

A "possible" attempted homicide?!? I would definitely call the house fire-bombing an attempted multiple homicide.

People are normally at home and asleep in the pre-dawn hours, so anybody setting a house on fire at that time has to be aware that they are likely to kill people (and not just their one targeted person, either). Coordinated fire-bombing is also clearly premeditated, and conspiracy, too.

Hang 'em high.

Some of these wackjobs were caught after a very destructive attack at a tree research center in Northern Wisconsin. No genetic modifying was going on or anything like that. The place would do things like take a strain of a tree that was drought resistant, and...breed?...it with on that was good against insect attacks. That sort of thing.

A couple of decades worth of work was destroyed.

Sometimes in order to save the village you have to destroy it....

makes no sense no matter who says it.

These people are not really motivated by a love of animals so much as they are by a hatred for humanity.

Correct, that is why they release animals that they know cannot survive out in the wild.

re: #17 Ringo the Gringo

"The world would be bette off if there were no people in it"
—I've heard that one, and there is a 'voluntary human extinction movement'.

Feh/Spit.

Criminals.
I'm an animal lover and these people make me sick!

I'm all for protecting animals from unnecessary suffering, and I'm not sure I even support all medical research using animals (I speak as someone who used to be a nurse). But these PETA people or whoever they are, are insane. I hope they will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. I am sick of fascist libtards of every stripe. Enough already.

I agree! - If you firebomb a place where there may be people without checking first, it is attempted murder per definition, exactly like if you shoot at the windows of a house.

Now, PETA has previously funded - in full - the defense of another fire-bomber, more than indicating that they're behind it in some way. I'm willing to bet that something similar will happen this time.

I so hope that someone finally will file RICO charges against the ranking members of PETA and get that vile organization dissolved. Not only are what they're doing utterly despicable, they're luring people (kids!) to support them through a carefully orchestrated front of cuddly animals and semi-nude celebrities.

A few years ago these asshats released 50,000 mink into the wild. The only thing that came of it? A huge fox population that then died out again once the free food was gone.

These people do not care about animals, or the environment or what ever it is that they are protesting. The care about controlling what the rest of us do, and how we live.

How does it make sense to burn down a car dealership to protest polution? I guess that the smoke they cause isn't bad for you.

Sick, sick sick people who need to have their trust funds confiscated.

Eventually they will manage to kill someone.

They should be sentenced to be strung up spreadeagled by their heels next to a barrel of broken hockey sticks.

Rotten animal torturers and their spouses and kids.

Animal lover.

< sarcasm off >

re: #3 Ben Hur

As long as it's not for cosmetics, and is specifically for medical research, I have no problem with it.

Of course "Animal rights" terrorists never get sick, so they need no medication.

No, they smoke their medication.

Speaking of mice, sounds like it's time for the mouse organ.

re: #26 SusanL

Eventually they will manage to kill someone.

They already have, remember the uni-bomber?

And over the past 20 years a number of lumberjacks in the Pacific North West have been killed or seriously injured when their chainsaws hit steel spikes in trees.

Golden rule time:
This is how they treat their fellow man? Do the same back to them. Follow the money trail and confiscate everything from anyone who is supporting these asshats just like any other terrorist group... Arrest or bump off as needed... time for a little "old school FBI" (think 1930s/Dillinger etc) enforcement to make the ones thinking of joining/helping the nutcakes think twice about it and maybe find some less dangerous cause du jour to join...

And as a good "animal rights activist" you must adhere to the following creed TO THE LETTER, not just when it's convenient.

1- When ill, use no drugs of any kind, not even aspirin. All modern drugs have been tested on animals. No backing off your oath if you get cancer.

2- Do not use doctors of any kind, even veterinarians. They are all part of the animal testing industry.

3- Wear no leather. Even Birkenstocks are made from murdered animals.

4- Remember, farming is murder. Farmers of plant products regular murder animals who would eat their crops that they deem "pests".

5- Most importantly, consider that plants have rights too. Just because they don't walk around like animals doesn't mean they don't have a right to not be murdered for food. It's proven that plants feel pain and fear registering galvanic response changes in their leaves when traumatized by such things as being "pruned" (vivisected) or "harvested.

The truly enlightened are "living being" activists who draw no line between the equally valid plant and animal kingdoms. Abandon your kingdomist arrogance and eschew the eating of "corpse food" of any kind.

Eating is the most evil thing an animal rights activist can do. Stand up to the evil plant murdering industries like Con-Agra and say no to eating plants! Humans are evil, you included, so starve yourself to death and mother Earth will thank you.

So will I.

The Ends Juxtapose The Means

It's not so much that they love animals, as that they hate people.

The earth, with all of it's furry,winged, scaled,etc..
inhabitants, would be BETTER OFF if "we" (humans)weren't here!
They forget that includes "them"!
Let's start with "them" and see how it go's from there!

re: #29 Ringo the Gringo

They already have, remember the uni-bomber?

And over the past 20 years a number of lumberjacks in the Pacific North West have been killed or seriously injured when their chainsaws hit steel spikes in trees.

I don't think any have been killed but several have been injured. Years ago I read that loggers wised up and started using metal detectors, and the environuts responded by using fiberglass stakes.

Didn't Speaker Pelosi just split Washington for those parts?

re: #31 docremulac

And as a good "animal rights activist" you must adhere to the following creed TO THE LETTER, not just when it's convenient.

1- When ill, use no drugs of any kind, not even aspirin. All modern drugs have been tested on animals. No backing off your oath if you get cancer.

2- Do not use doctors of any kind, even veterinarians. They are all part of the animal testing industry.

3- Wear no leather. Even Birkenstocks are made from murdered animals.

4- Remember, farming is murder. Farmers of plant products regular murder animals who would eat their crops that they deem "pests".

5- Most importantly, consider that plants have rights too. Just because they don't walk around like animals doesn't mean they don't have a right to not be murdered for food. It's proven that plants feel pain and fear registering galvanic response changes in their leaves when traumatized by such things as being "pruned" (vivisected) or "harvested.

The truly enlightened are "living being" activists who draw no line between the equally valid plant and animal kingdoms. Abandon your kingdomist arrogance and eschew the eating of "corpse food" of any kind.

Eating is the most evil thing an animal rights activist can do. Stand up to the evil plant murdering industries like Con-Agra and say no to eating plants! Humans are evil, you included, so starve yourself to death and mother Earth will thank you.

So will I.

ADDENDUM: Why wait? Why prolong your life, increasing your carbon footprint? Why kill trees by writing a book about saving the earth? Why increase pollution through using your computer and internet connection to blog about DIRECT ACTION against polluters? Why starve to death, only for your useless corpse to end up in a hospital for autopsy? That takes energy, which evil mankind generates by raping Mother Gaia.

This is the true solution. Go to an open meadow and commit hari-kiri. Feed the Earth and expiate your sins!

/ the MONARCH! (venture brothers) //// //

re: #31 docremulac

One more:

6- Throwing red paint on little old ladies wearing fur coats is all well and good, but it's not enough. You also have to go to your nearest biker bar and throw red paint on anyone wearing leathers.

Another iteration of the Weathermen, perhaps?

As someone who works in medical research, I'd really like to see that list to make sure that none of my bosses are going to be killed.

Does anyone know if it's been leaked?

re: #31 docremulac

Heh. First it was eco-anxiety, now eco-rexia.

Let's give them a state!

/sorry, wrong terrorists

Remember, you heard it here first from MikalM!

/hat-tip begging

Seriously, this is an important story, which is why I posted it last night, and am glad it became a thread. These people are every bit as dangerous as whatever jihadis might be lurking in our Republic, and need to be fought.

Last night one reader suggested giving firearms training and CCW permits to targeted scientists. I concurred, since I believe that the ALF/ELF idiots are at their core wannabes and cowards, and will retreat en masse if any of their would-be victims start fighting back.

re: #42 dr.mister

Let's give them a state!

/sorry, wrong terrorists

Heh, they consider Oregon and California to be their state....

Seriously. There is an extreme anti science luddite agenda behind this. These are stasists -- to them the world is too much with humanity so everyone else needs to get off the planet except these (wise philosopher kings, chosen religious groups, chosen tribes.... well you get the drift -- a lot of stasist anti science groups agree on many particulars even though they would probably kill each other if placed in the same room for 24 hours.)

They need to stop progress because a chaotic, atavistic world is the only one their insane philosophies make sense in. Al Qaeda's latest doctrine calls it "creating wilderness".

Animal rights activists should be recycled as dog food. That way they would be doing a public service and helping animals at the same time.

re: #38 Occasional Reader

One more:

6- Throwing red paint on little old ladies wearing fur coats is all well and good, but it's not enough. You also have to go to your nearest biker bar and throw red paint on anyone wearing leathers.

I'd like to see that. Be sure to bring popcorn.

re: #29 Ringo the Gringo

I was just going to post a bit on this Ringo. That's what I've done for a living for over 43 years, cut trees down with a chain saw. Contrary to what those idiots think with their tree spiking antics, they really don't either stop operations or pose too much danger on my end of things. I've ruined probably hundreds of chains hitting nails or spikes in trees, it's quite common to hit them near property lines where a land-owner has nails fence wire to trees and after a period of years. What happens is instantly the chrome covering is knocked off the chain and it becomes useless, unsalvageable. What those jerks don't understand is, they are not sticking it to some corporation, loggers (lumberjack is a Hollywood word, despised and not used :) ) have to buy their own tools and $35 a pop we're hot under the collar when some one is purposely sticking it to our take home pay.

However, big caveat, for a sawmill worker it's a different story, they had indeed be killed or injured by their high speed saws hitting embedded objects and disintegrating. It has happened several times, notably in northern California.

When Ingrid Newkirk stops taking the insulin shots she needs to treat her diabetes (said therapy being developed from animal research...and original source of insulin having been harvested from pigs prior to the use of recombinant human insulin...also developed through the use of animal research....), and all other animal-freak terrorists give up all use of western medicines and therapies... then and only then will the PETA freaks have a shred of credibility.

Which won't matter, since they will cease to live within a few decades anyway.

Visualize a world without humans... The peace, the beautiful green planet of Gaia in its innate purity! As disgusting corrupting humans, we MUST kill ourselves off! We all SUCK and MUST DIE!

Brought to you by: The World Without Us by Alan Weisman

And the Voluntary Human Extinction Movement (VHEMT)

Now THESE guys are Leftists... Hatred for self and humanity.

re: #31 docremulac

I like to chase my cats around the house and scream,

"FUR IS MURDER."

They don't get it.

Whenever stuff like this happens I like to go out for veal.

Obviously, terrorism is beyond the pale as a tactic to achieve any political objective. It also has a history of failure, because society reacts with revulsion to terrorist attacks.

On the substantive issue of "animal rights", these people seem to believe that sacrificing the life of a rat to advance medical research is worse than curing human diseases. Would they choose human experimentation instead?

On the other hand, data derived from rat experiments, particularly in pharmaceutical research, don't always prove reliable when extrapolated to human beings. That's because rats aren't human beings. The industry is working on computer modeling and other ways to improve the data while reducing the high costs of developing new drugs.

Eventually, the need for animal experimentation may lesson. We're not there yet.

re: #31 docremulac

I had a plant molecular biology prof who made the same point to us in class one day. He went through the molecular response plants mount to "attacks" like harvesting, etc. He said even the fresh broccoli in the grocery store was still "alive" enough to respond when you cut it into smaller pieces before cooking....and I'm sure the poor plants don't care for being sauteed either!

re: #47 JHW

I was just going to post a bit on this Ringo. That's what I've done for a living for over 43 years, cut trees down with a chain saw. Contrary to what those idiots think with their tree spiking antics, they really don't either stop operations or pose too much danger on my end of things. I've ruined probably hundreds of chains hitting nails or spikes in trees, it's quite common to hit them near property lines where a land-owner has nails fence wire to trees and after a period of years. What happens is instantly the chrome covering is knocked off the chain and it becomes useless, unsalvageable. What those jerks don't understand is, they are not sticking it to some corporation, loggers (lumberjack is a Hollywood word, despised and not used :) ) have to buy their own tools and $35 a pop we're hot under the collar when some one is purposely sticking it to our take home pay.

However, big caveat, for a sawmill worker it's a different story, they had indeed be killed or injured by their high speed saws hitting embedded objects and disintegrating. It has happened several times, notably in northern California.

So you don't like The Lumberjack Song?

re: #31 docremulac

hehehe Well I'm totally for animal rights, just not the kind that make you blow people up (not sure I understand that logic...).

You don't have to be lunatic to support animal rights, btw. There's the Humane Society, ASPCA, your local pound even. Really the best thing you can do for animal rights in this country. Take home a stray.

Sometimes works with men, too, but they are harder to train.

re: #54 funky chicken

Ha, I knew somebody was going to bring it up. I laugh at it, but some of my more testy and wild brethren consider it instant grounds for a scrap.

Terrorists is the right word. No wonder the Department of Homeland Security lists "Animal Liberation Front" as a terror group. Their acts have endangered thousands of people.

Medianews reported Sunday that the predawn bombing Saturday forced the family to evacuate their Santa Cruz home via an escape ladder and was being investigated as a possible attempted homicide.

They were obviously framed. Everyone knows dirty hippies are incapable of crawling out of bed before noon.

My girlfriend has a condo-mate who is a grad student at UC Berkeley; not sure exactly her field but she experiments with animals. We're really hoping she does not become a target. This woman is in Japan for the summer and has expressed some concern.

ALF spokesman defends UC-SC eco-terrorist attack;

While a spokesman said he didn't know who committed the act, the Animal Liberation Front called the attacks a "necessary" act, just like those who fought against civil rights injustices. Spokesman Dr Jerry Vlasak showed no remorse for the family or children who were targeted.

"If their father is willing to continue risking his livelihood in order to continue chopping up animals in a laboratory, then his children are old enough to recognise the consequences," said Vlasak, a former animal researcher, who is now a trauma surgeon.

"This guy knows what he is doing. He knows that every day that he goes into the laboratory and hurts animals that it is unreasonable not to expect consequences."

/no remorse

Remember people: Carrot Juice is Murder!

re: #58 kevinmumaw

They were obviously framed. Everyone knows dirty hippies are incapable of crawling out of bed before noon.

Well, that's unless they're motivated to kill. The Manson murders proved they could be highly energetic if they had the right impetus.

I wish BO was a terminal disease. That would solve a lot of California's probs, I'll tell ya that.

re: #58 kevinmumaw

They stayed up all night and crashed after they did their awful deed.

BTW, "dirty hippies" tend to be naive, passive, pacificistic useful idiots who don't have the motivation or organization to pull off such an act. These animal rights terrorists are another breed entirely.

re: #57 Abu Lahab Terrorists is the right word. No wonder the Department of Homeland Security lists "Animal Liberation Front" as a terror group. Their acts have endangered thousands of people.

Yep. FBI and Justice Dept. should raid ALF's Woodland Hills, CA office and webpage and lock them up.

re: #54 funky chicken

So you don't like The Lumberjack Song?

"The Douglas Fir...the Larch...The Mighty Scotch Pine!"
"Floating down the great rivers of British Columbia..."

Might be interesting notion -- charge the web-masters as accessories after the fact for their role in hyping / celebrating the attempted murder.

These guys can be extremely dangerous, they infiltrate into the labs in the UK, by pretending to be bona fide researchers, gather data on other workers, and can cause real havoc.

The security in the animal labs has to be seen to be believed.

It may be because the Brits are crazy about animals (the animal charities in the past have reportedly regularly gained more money than children's charities), but some of these loons are fanatical harassers and even murderers.

Of course there's a grim certain logic to this (and to the granting of full human rights to primates by law) if you believe we are ultimately just estranged genetic cousins. Who's to say then that the death of a hamster or a dog is less significant than the death of a great ape such as ourselves?

News flash! It is the FBI investigating this, not the locals.

That knowledge doesn't necessarily inspire confidence...

re: #53 funky chicken

I had a plant molecular biology prof who made the same point to us in class one day. He went through the molecular response plants mount to "attacks" like harvesting, etc. He said even the fresh broccoli in the grocery store was still "alive" enough to respond when you cut it into smaller pieces before cooking....and I'm sure the poor plants don't care for being sauteed either!

As to food being alive, one time I "rescued" a sprig of cut mint from my plate in an Asian restaurant in NYC and took it home (to another state), where I succesfully grew the sprig into a whole potted mint plant after rooting it in water.

Then (of course) I ate it.

Forget about the fact that tilling an acre of land to grow crops on kills or displaces 100 rodents, 5000 earthworms, and 20,000 insects, the problem with these all heart and no brain PETA ass@#$es is that nature is full of animals that predate other animals.

They don't want YOU to fish. . .but fish eat other fish.
They don't want YOU to hunt deer, even though wolves hunt deer.
Etc.

Penn & Teller - Bullshit - PETA part 1, part 2, part 3

re: #67 ebed_melech

Who's to say then that the death of a hamster or a dog is less significant than the death of a great ape such as ourselves?

I say so. This "every species is equal" stuff is pure nonsense. My gut harbors billions of bacteria. Are antibiotics genocide?

In making decisions about life, you have to assign priority, and by implication assign value to life.

You might as well argue to me that my child isn't more valuable than your child. If there is only one seat in the proverbial life raft, and I get to pick, guess who I am giving it to.

If these PETA clowns really think that humans are no more valuable than cockroaches, and that every life is intrinsically equal, then they should be happy to exchange their own lives for (say) those of two animals each.

So how about it PETA members? Willing to commit suicide if I promise to spare the lives of two chickens?

My daughter mouthed the "it's just wrong to experiment on animals" line on me this weekend (the fruits of a "free" public education). I set her straight with some simple facts. Too bad the bombers parents didn't do the same.

re: #26 SusanL

This is always my first point when I talk about these so-called AR terrorists. They are ANTI-animal and ANTI-human. Their goal is to (and it sounds so silly in straight talk) separate humans from the rest of earthly creation. No domestic animals. No human interaction with any other species.

They want domestic animals gone, and then they'll focus on trying to get the humans gone as well. Oh, yes and control the rest of us while they do it.

Either they do not understand the reasons for animal experimentation in science or they do not care. We ALL benefit from animal research, whether we know it or not. Been vaccinated? Been treated with antibiotics & other drugs? Had successful surgery? Thank a researcher and animal research.

The proper and just punishment for these terrorists is to accept their demands that we not use animals in medical research and to use them instead. That will give them the best of both worlds: not using animals in medical research and reducing the human population by using them (the terrorists) up in medical research, thus benefiting the rest of humanity.

A perfect resolution to their demands and desires!

Wheat is murder [NSFW Maddox]

re: #71 looking closely
Maybe different phyla can be disregarded, but what about species from the same class (mammals) or order (primates)? So the reasoning runs...

re: #67 ebed_melech

Of course there's a grim certain logic to this (and to the granting of full human rights to primates by law) if you believe we are ultimately just estranged genetic cousins. Who's to say then that the death of a hamster or a dog is less significant than the death of a great ape such as ourselves?

It figures that you would use this story to try to sneak in creationist propaganda. So you're going to argue that belief in evolution leads to this kind of terrorist act?

Never mind that the scientists who are being attacked in this way almost certainly believe in evolution themselves.

re: #72 tgibson1962
Was your daughter really persuaded, or did she just go quiet? I've spent useless hours reasoning with old ladies outside the Home Office waving silly pamphlets about vivisection under the noses of the civil servants.

One thing's dead right on this thread though - they're all veggies.

re: #77 Charles

Dear Charles,

Don't think it's 'snuck in' seems pretty open to me and for good reason -my father repeatedly drummed into me as a child - 'we too are just animals'. The truth is we don't act consistently with that belief, do we?

As to the scientists, I wonder how many of them have deep reservations about neo-Darwinism, but don't choose to voice them because of natural shyness, a lack of confidence in looking at the whole picture, and a lack of desire to shake the 'sacred cow', or harm their future prospects. I have a number of post doc friends in that position.

Science and reason are under assault in this great nation of ours, as they are in many other nations across the globe.

The enemies are numerous and varied, and attacking on multiple fronts. Though the methods of attack differ greatly from on organization to the next, they all share a common thread: abject ignorance.

re: #80 Slumbering Behemoth

Science and reason are under assault in this great nation of ours, as they are in many other nations across the globe.

The enemies are numerous and varied, and attacking on multiple fronts. Though the methods of attack differ greatly from on organization to the next, they all share a common thread: abject ignorance.

Well said.

re: #79 ebed_melech

As to the scientists, I wonder how many of them have deep reservations about neo-Darwinism...

I'll take a guess at that!

None.

re: #76 ebed_melech

Maybe different phyla can be disregarded, but what about species from the same class (mammals) or order (primates)? So the reasoning runs...

People do make the argument that every life is equivalent, though clearly I don't accept it.

In fact, not only do I not accept it, I ridicule it. Only a modern leftist homo sapiens would presume to make this ahistorical and unnatural argument. I think, if you could get them to talk, that dolphins, for example would tell you that of course dolphin lives are more valuable than mackerel lives. The lion would tell you that lion lives are more valuable than gazelle lives and so forth. If lion's LIFE is equal to a human life, then why isn't a lion's opinion equal?

To answer your question, I've already said, the life of my kid is more valuable than that of your kid. So as far as I am concerned, we don't even have to invoke other species (orders, classes, etc), to come to the conclusion that not every life is equal. EG: I'm saying some HUMANS are more valuable than others.

As to what EXACT value you place on individual or species lives, that's a value (ie normative) judgment. How many chimpanzees equal one person? How many mice? How many rats? Etc.

I don't know the answers to these questions, (nor that there even are good answers), but I do know that if I have to vivisect a thousand baby chimpanzees to provide enough "whatever" to my life or my kids, then that's what I'm going to do.

If that makes me "selfish" or a "speciesist" then I think those labels are effectively meaningless. Via the laws of nature EVERY life (human or otherwise) occupies a "niche" in the ecosystem that could theoretically be occupied by another or possibly more than one competing organism.

re: #67 ebed_melech

I find it bizarre, perhaps even a bit suspect, that you would use this train of thought here. Tactics aside, anti-evolutionists (can I insert a "neo" in there somewhere) are just as much the enemies of science and reason as are these animal rights activists.

It's amazing how many creationists like to pretend they have dozens and dozens of colleagues who are forced to hide their true feelings about Satanistic Darwinism, because of their fear that the Evolution Gestapo will kick down their doors at 2 am and drag them off to Natural Selection Camp.

The journalist Michael Coren wrote a column last summer about animal rights activists. He received so much deranged hate mail that he wrote a follow-up column. I've posted them in the spin-off links under "Related to Post".

He said on his radio or TV show that people will send more money for, and get more upset about, abused animals than abused children.

I believe it is our responsibility to treat animals in a humane way but human life is more valuable than animal life. Members of my family, including me, are alive due to medical research done on animals. I am sorry for the animals but I would rather my diabetic brother be alive than a pig or a rabbit.

re: #77 Charles

Never mind that the scientists who are being attacked in this way almost certainly believe in evolution themselves.

Probably so do the terrorist attackers, actually.

Anyone who thinks that a rat is equivalent to a human ipso facto doen't accept the Judeo-Christian theology of a human race created in the image in God, explicitly given domain over the earth and its contents.

Put more simply, if you are a fundamentalist Christian (or Jew, or Muslim even), you likely think its OK to kill rats to save people, and the point is, I don't think this particular strain of terrorism really has anything to do with the "argument" over evolution.

As to whether or not chimpanzees deserve special protection (ie more than say, chickens or dogs), that's debatable, and like everything else, the devil is in the details.

I don't think that a blanket ban on ALL primate research, for example, is good policy. (I suppose thereby exposing my own "human first" bias). Don't forget, that some primate research can be used to benefit other non-human primates. Extreme expense and labor-intensiveness already ensures that primate research is relatively limited, and its already pretty well regulated (at least in the USA)

You can make a moral argument, that if we (eg the west in general, and the USA in particular) do NOT do primate research, than its just going to be done in places with less oversight and more potential for abuse (eg China).

re: #85 Charles

Doesn't that have something to do with martyr points? It seems to be difficult to persuade someone to unreason without the added 'persecution.'

re: #67 ebed_melech

Who's to say then that the death of a hamster or a dog is less significant than the death of a great ape such as ourselves?

Don't great apes eat hamsters and dogs?

/

re: #71 looking closely

You might as well argue to me that my child isn't more valuable than your child. If there is only one seat in the proverbial life raft, and I get to pick, guess who I am giving it to.

When my daughter was small, she was invited to a friend's birthday party, which was being held at some location outside of our neighbourhood. The friend's mother (my friend) said she and her husband would drive my daughter.

They showed up and the car was full. My friend said from the front passenger seat, "Oh, your daughter can sit on my lap; I'll stretch the car seat around her."

I said, "No, I'm not comfortable with that, my daughter's not going."

My friend said, "It's perfectly safe."

I said, "Okay, let your son sit on your lap and let my daughter sit in the back seat."

My friend looked unhappy but she did it.

Some friend.

(It's not the same as the life raft situation but I was reminded of that day.)

re: #89 Josephine

Don't great apes eat hamsters and dogs?

/

Humans certainly do eat both dogs, AND great apes, on occasion.

I don't know about hamsters (though it seems probable that somewhere, someone is eating them), but guinea pigs are a deliacy in the Andes.

Back onto the great apes, I have mixed feelings about it. It seems a shame that starving humans might hunt great apes to extinction, but if it really comes down to people vs apes, I don't think I can side with the apes.

re: #91 looking closely

Humans certainly do eat both dogs, AND great apes, on occasion.

There was a story a few days ago about restaurants in Beijing taking their dog dishes off the menu, so they wouldn't offend visiting foreigners during the Games.

re: #80 Slumbering Behemoth

Science and reason are under assault in this great nation of ours, as they are in many other nations across the globe.

The enemies are numerous and varied, and attacking on multiple fronts. Though the methods of attack differ greatly from on organization to the next, they all share a common thread: abject ignorance.

Well said.

May I add my two cents?

...they all share a common thread: fanaticism driven by abject ignorance.

re: #92 Charles

There was a story a few days ago about restaurants in Beijing taking their dog dishes off the menu, so they wouldn't offend visiting foreigners during the Games.

Potemkin restaurants!

re: #92 Charles

Gee- wonder who they could possibly be worried about offending.

re: #95 Sharmuta

Gee- wonder who they could possibly be worried about offending.

I wonder if they had to shut down any stinky tofu establishments near the Olympics!

Liberal tolerance on parade

Way back in the days of Usenet, I got into a discussion of animal rights with a rather rabid believer that animals were equal to humans in all regards. When I asked her a few questions, it became obvious very quickly that she was clueless about her beliefs. (Think Kate-level dim from the Penn & Teller video posted earlier.)

I started with the rather obvious - did she brush her teeth, wash or use antibiotics when she was ill. She had no clue why I asked. When I explained that each of those actions killed a multitude of bacteria, she replied that they weren't alive. She refused to believe anyone who said they were.

I then tried to discuss what would happen to all the farm animals if they weren't on farms. For the most part, they'd all die because you can't exactly adopt a cow if you live in an apartment. She said all we had to do was turn them loose. She insisted they could live on their own. She got rather testy when I asked her where, and wouldn't they eat up all the food that the wildlife currently eats. She then said people could adopt them as pets, refusing to believe that a cow could not live free-range on a half-acre suburban lot. (Or what the resulting mess would be if everyone tried it.)

She's really no different than these people. She had no factual knowledge, but she believed, and that's all that really mattered. Betcha she's an Obama supporter now.

re: #93 Josephine

...they all share a common thread: fanaticism driven by abject ignorance.

That is one killer addendum. It's worth way more than two cents.

re: #99 Slumbering Behemoth

Thank you.

re: #85 Charles

It's amazing how many creationists like to pretend they have dozens and dozens of colleagues who are forced to hide their true feelings about Satanistic Darwinism, because of their fear that the Evolution Gestapo will kick down their doors at 2 am and drag them off to Natural Selection Camp.

I can think of at least 3 post doc colleagues and two professor (both of biochemistry) with whom I have worked closely who have had grave reservations about neo-Darwinism, only one is evangelical.
It's easy to scoff about the effects of the Darwinian 'Gestapo', but it's not such a joke when you see serious workers victimised or harassed. Another close friend, who is a model of integrity and hard work, had his work vandalised at King's College in London, when he was working on ANP, when his views about evolution became known. He was eventually forced out of the lab, not because of his character or his research. Would the posters here defend such practices?

It's one thing to sloganise about ignorance and fanaticism, another to examine one's own prejudices critically.

re: #89 Josephine

Indeed they do! Though we are great apes(supposedly).

re: #60 Terp Mole

Gee, how surprising (not) that this argument so closely mirrors the "logic" used by Arab terrorists to justify murdering Jewish children.

For what's it's worth personally, I am uncomfortable with any animal experiments, esp with primates, though I have done work on animals (nude mice). It seems to be a matter of necessity, cell culture is a poor second. Especially when it comes to transplant work with dangerous new biological molecules, work with primates seems more sensible than going straight to man.
But the unpredictable nature of the results, underlines the significant molecular gaps between man and beast.

...Medianews called a threatening animal-rights pamphlet left at a coffee shop last week.

Would this coffee shop happen to be a Starbucks?

Here's the graphic example I was looking for, I think the drug which caused this horrific reaction in 6 volunteers, called TGN1412, had been tested in monkeys first (so the article claims).

re: #101 ebed_melech

It's one thing to sloganise about ignorance and fanaticism, another to examine one's own prejudices critically.

This, from someone who uses "neo-Darwinism" as though it were credible terminology.

Oh, teh friggin irony.

re: #106 ebed_melech

And that proves what? That animals should never be used in genetic research or in testing for new drugs and medical procedures because such research and testing have no purpose and are ineffective? Are you saying that nothing has been learned from such research and testing?

You're either being disingenuous or you're just plain stupid.

re: #108 Amy

Are you saying that nothing has been learned from such research and testing?

Well, it taught me not to participate in human drug trials..

re: #85 Charles

It's amazing how many creationists like to pretend they have dozens and dozens of colleagues who are forced to hide their true feelings about Satanistic Darwinism, because of their fear that the Evolution Gestapo will kick down their doors at 2 am and drag them off to Natural Selection Camp.

Charles, there are several who have had their careers prematurely ended, (from what I have read from My son's copy of the ID mag he recieves)
One I read of was denied tenure, due to a ID paper he had written, and Several had their credentials revoked in CA I believe because they recieved their degrees from a learning establishment, that the state of CA no longer will recognize because they teach ID as their primary theory. They do fear, but they still stand by their beliefs.

ALF/ELF should all be put down just like any rabid animal and for the same reasons. Several of their "exploits" around the southern part of IN (mostly ELF) involve destroying SUV's, burning houses being built, ruining logging equipment (most loggers in this area aren't big corp, but small time folks). My personal preference would be to catch them in the act, tie them on an anthill, naked, and blood them up to draw coyotes....but that is just me.....

How can this be fair use when you've quoted the first 5 paragraphs of a 6-paragraph story?

Historical reference - Journal of Lewis & Clarke by DeVore (sp?) mentions the expedition eating dog at times with various tribes as they crossed the continent. They found it quite good. But thankfully it never caught on with the western world.
re: Doubts about FBI doing the investigation. Now the alternative meaning of the acronym is: Famous But Incompetent
But I have a precaution. Having spent time doing my civic duty on a Federal Grand Jury, I have a stern warning. You really don't want to get the Fed's on your ass. Believe me. I watched & listened to testimony from some brilliant folks in numerous departments: Border Patrol, Treasury, Commerce, Interior, FBI, (at the time INS), GAO, Agriculture, etc. The list is long. Not all were stellar communicators but they knew their stuff. Building the case one brick at a time.
If the Fed's have reason they can muster awesome legal power and grind you into powder.
Oh, and compare the price of leagal council. Most local/state attorneys will run you a few hundred per hour. Attorneys who work at the Federal level will cost you several grand per hour.

re: #92 Charles

There was a story a few days ago about restaurants in Beijing taking their dog dishes off the menu, so they wouldn't offend visiting foreigners during the Games.

Puppy is the new veal.

re: #110 Marvo76

Charles, there are several who have had their careers prematurely ended, (from what I have read from My son's copy of the ID mag he recieves)...

Now, there's a reliable source.

/heavy sarcasm

My father had quadruple bypass surgery. My son is a Type I diabetic who must take insulin to stay alive. My brother's life was saved by antibiotics when he came down with pneumococcal pneumonia at the age of 14. Friends of mine who had cancer are in remission thanks to chemotherapy.

All of these procedures and drugs are available thanks to animal testing. I would rather sacrifice as many animals as it takes than allow one human being to die unnecessarily.

Just so you understand where I'm coming from.

re: #111 Marvo76

You are sick.

re: #107 Slumbering Behemoth

I thought I had heard the term used, not pejoratively, by respectable and well known scientists, so I googled it. It is being used that way heavily by creationists, but also a a valid term by such as Richard Dawkins and Steven Jay Gould. So there is apparently such confusion there, I suspect some of it sowed purposely.Here's how Wiki describes it in part

Neo-Darwinism is a term used to describe certain ideas about the mechanisms of evolution that were developed from Charles Darwin's original theory of evolution by natural selection: while separating them from his hypothesis of Pangenesis as a Lamarckian source of variation involving blending inheritance.[1] The term was first used by George Romanes in 1895 to refer to the idea that evolution occurs solely through natural selection, as proposed by Alfred Russel Wallace and August Weismann, in other words, without any mechanism involving the inheritance of acquired characteristics resulting from use or disuse.[2] These two scientists' complete rejection of Lamarckism came from Weissmann's germ plasm theory. Weissman realised that the cells that produce the germ plasm, or gametes (such as sperm and egg in animals), separate from the somatic cells that go on to make other body tissues at an early stage in development. Since he could see no obvious means of communication between the two he asserted that the inheritance of acquired characteristics was therefore impossible; a conclusion now known as Weismann's barrier.[

Wiki Neo-Darwinism

It gets better though, I went to Dawkins' website and he has a video available Video Lecture on Neo-Darwinism by Richard Dawkins

It's a damn good lecture, I'm watching it now, it's 1:12 in length, and very entertaining, I didn't realize Dawkins had such a sense of humor.I'll also post it in the spinoff links.

It seems that every religion, whether it be Islam, Christianity, Vegetarianism, Animal Rightsism, or Gaia-worship, has its Luddites.

You know that there are forces present at the subject colleges that are working with ALF and the other domestic terrorists to identify animal researchers, provide their home addresses, number and names of children, etc. What happens to them? The administrators, lab techs, and research associates with an agenda who think nothing of ratting out their employees and bosses to make a point. I hope Find Buffaloes Incorporated, otherwise known as the FBI, spends some time going after those sources of betrayal.

re: #87 looking closely

AMEN!

While I was a neonatology fellow in training, I participated (lightly...I was nowhere near the lead researcher on any of these projects) for 3 years in primate research - specifically the use of prematurely born babboons in the testing of pulmonary surfactants and other techniques for mechanical ventilation and various medications trying to test the efficacy of many different medications. Each and every one of these premature babboons had a life expectancy of 10-21 days before they were euthanized to perform tissue analysis as part of the research. The effort placed on limiting the number of babboon pregnancies per female would have done any WW II German bureaucrat proud. The animals were treated with the utmost dignity, and the level of security at the facility was equal to that of a military base...of which I am quite familiar.

I, and my fellow trainees, not only participated in this extremely valuable research with the goal of improving the survivability of premature HUMAN infants, but it gave us the opportunity to sharpen our skills at difficult endotracheal intubations in patients weighing less than 500-1000 grams, and allowed us to learn techniques for successfully placing difficult central IV access without "learning" on someone's critically ill infant.

I have no patience nor sympathy for these ALF terrorist thugs. These walking billboards for personality disorders can blather on all they want about computer simulations, but a computer cannot (at least with current technology) simulate the FEEL of the patient's pulse, or the secretions that block visualization of the patient's airway, or arterial blood spouting up from the trachea during a pulmonary hemorrhage...would these idiots prefer we 'practice' on them or their loved ones until we master the proper technique? Or would they change their mind about the relative worth of human versus primate?

And computers for drug testing? RIIIGHT! The computer model simulations of the weather are too complex for reliable predictions, and you expect me to rely on flawed, limited computer programs to determine safety profiles, possible side effects and efficacy of new medicines? Yeah...let me know how that works out for you...on your tombstone epitaph....

re: #117 Sharmuta

You are sick.

Thanks I think....
I just prefer to deal with them one on one at the same level they play at...

And it would seem I can't spell "baboon" correctly...PIMF

Charles I did some digging and found this, which is independent of my son's magazine, it tells there about the ones who have had problems.

[Link: chronicle.com...]

Just going by what I read, so don't shoot the messenger (please LOL)

re: #122 Marvo76

So you think the solution is to stoop to barbaric punishments like the islamists? Because that's exactly what your punishment- barbaric. I prefer to arrest them, put them on trial, convict them, and punish them according to our laws under the Constitution.

re: #125 Sharmuta

So you think the solution is to stoop to barbaric punishments like the islamists? Because that's exactly what your punishment- barbaric. I prefer to arrest them, put them on trial, convict them, and punish them according to our laws under the Constitution.

"an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, vote for me and I will set you free!" "Ball of confusion"
one of the biggest problems in this country, is that the punishment doesn't fit the crime anymore. I no longer trust the courts to protect the public like they should. To many judges with "compassion" release to many thugs that have no business out of an institution of higher corrections. Many deserve to bite the dust, at the time they are caught, instead are treated to years of 3 hots and cot, free medical, free legal, while victims are left waiting on judgements that don't compensate them at all. Do I feel any remorse for putting down a rabid dog? Nope, not a bit....

Murder is meat?

re: #126 Marvo76

There are plenty of issues in our court system one can rant about, but turning that system on it's head and resorting to barbaric practices as a solution is not one with which I personally can agree. If you have a problem with state sentencing guidelines, I suggest you contact some state representatives. If you have issues with Federal guidelines, then contact your Congressperson and Senators. However- I highly doubt you will get any among that group to agree to introduce legislation recommending your idea of punishments.

Now this is an attack on science...

re: #25 Xenobyte

so hope that someone finally will file RICO charges against the ranking members of PETA and get that vile organization dissolved. –Xenobyte

Good point.

This sounds like a classic RICO case. I hope they throw the book at them.

re: #92 Charles

I have had some dog meat dishes in China.

They look somewhat like dark chicken meat. The taste is a little gamier than chicken or like beefalow compared to beef. But, it is certainly edible.

Hum, I sure hope they don’t firebomb my car {as Ledger asked his progressive neighbor to park his Prius in Ledger’s driveway}…

re: #121 Babydoc97

but a computer cannot (at least with current technology) simulate the FEEL of the patient's pulse, or the secretions that block visualization of the patient's airway, or arterial blood spouting up from the trachea during a pulmonary hemorrhage...

Even allowing for rapid improvements in technology, a computer simulation is only going to be as good and as comprehensive as the real-life data on which it was based.

Thus, there will always be a need for SOME testing on live animals, if only to improve the reliability of computer sims (such as by highlighting rare real-life complications that were not programmed into existing versions of the simulation).

I guess I don't have to comment on how, even tho' the article never says so, we all know who's behind it. Those PETA hypocrites* should all just drop dead!

*their president uses pig insulin, but says YOU should die if YOU need it - because SHE does so much good for animals that SHE'S EARNED it! (SHE should be the FIRST to drop dead!)

Okay, rant over...

(grumble)

ALF spokesman defends UC-SC eco-terrorist attack;

...Spokesman Dr Jerry Vlasak showed no remorse for the family or children who were targeted.

"If their father is willing to continue risking his livelihood in order to continue chopping up animals in a laboratory, then his children are old enough to recognise the consequences," said Vlasak, a former animal researcher, who is now a trauma surgeon.

"This guy knows what he is doing. He knows that every day that he goes into the laboratory and hurts animals that it is unreasonable not to expect consequences."

Conversely, is it unreasonable for society to expect consequences for Jerry's terrorism incitement fatwa against children?

/fume

Seems that the only "animals" PETA and ELF and left wing terrorist groups (am I redundant?) seem hate are human beings. They are truly dispicable. These researchers are working wonders to heal humans and other animals by their research and discoveries. My prayers are with them and their families.

re: #128 Sharmuta

There are plenty of issues in our court system one can rant about, but turning that system on it's head and resorting to barbaric practices as a solution is not one with which I personally can agree. If you have a problem with state sentencing guidelines, I suggest you contact some state representatives. If you have issues with Federal guidelines, then contact your Congressperson and Senators. However- I highly doubt you will get any among that group to agree to introduce legislation recommending your idea of punishments.

IN this state, deadly force can be used to stop someone in commision of a felony, I guess I just better shoot em then...

re: #108 Amy

And that proves what? That animals should never be used in genetic research or in testing for new drugs and medical procedures because such research and testing have no purpose and are ineffective? Are you saying that nothing has been learned from such research and testing?

You're either being disingenuous or you're just plain stupid.

Thank you Amy, if you read my other posts you'll see I've been involved in a little animal work myself. No I'm pointing out there are limits to the value of extrapolating across different species, even ones that appear very similar. That's why the medics involved in the trial were so shocked by the effects in their human volunteers.

re: #118 JHW

Richard Dawkins has a ripping wit and a golden tongue he ought to be a preacher (many people believe he is of course - but for the wrong cause!), in fact I understand he is the son of a bishop.

If you want to see his real colours I suggest you look at the Lennox debate (another Oxford don), it reveals some of his less comfortable aspects.

re: #134 Terp Mole

Conversely, is it unreasonable for society to expect consequences for Jerry's terrorism incitement fatwa against children?

More like, how about Dr. Jerry Vlasak, as the visible face of these terrorists, should expect consequences!

re: #54 funky chicken
re: #47 JHW

So you don't like The Lumberjack Song?

I can't speak for JHW, but I once worked on a logging crew in British Columbia (my job was to "set chokers", which means attaching cables to logs and hauling them into piles and onto trucks). This was around 1977 or 1978 and Monty Python was running on TV. I distinctly remember once watching an episode on a rabbit-ears television in a camp that picked up a half-decent signal from KVOS-12 out of Orcas Island WA. Most of the loggers (as JHW wrote, nobody ever says lumberjack) knew the Lumberjack Song and most of them thought it was hilarious.

re: #134 Terp Mole

Conversely, is it unreasonable for society to expect consequences for Jerry's terrorism incitement fatwa against children?

More like, how about Dr. Jerry Vlasak, as the visible face of these terrorists, should expect consequences!

My apologies for the double post - my computer got rebooted at some point after the first one, and must have still had the command in the system (I am but a simple history major, what is this thing called "computer"?).

I am wildly disappointed in you, Charles (and like-minded posters). Animals rights activists have it all right (in mind). Understand that they rightly wish to alleviate the untold sufferings of animals in the face of insurmountable resistance. The OVERWHELMING majority of whom would never think to take violent action. You deeming them "terrorists" is an absurdity on par w/ the Islamic world's steady Israel-as-a-terrorist-state play; and they relay their depraved views w/ the same sense of moral confidence you convey. One day, humanity will regard our present treatment of animals w/ the gravest of shame. You, an otherwise noble man, will find yourself on the wrong side of history.