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Egyptians Worship Hitler's Moustache

Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:20:18 am PDT

The Freakiness Quotient of this clip from Egypt’s Channel 1 is off the scale, as members of the Egyptian Unique Moustache Association talk about their great respect for one of the most notorious hairy upper lips in history. (Courtesy of MEMRI TV.)

Click picture to play video. Requires Windows Media Player; Mac users should install Flip4Mac.

Following are excerpts from an interview with members of the Egyptian Unique Moustache Association, which aired on Egyptian TV on July 11, 2008

Interviewer: I’m sure many people have pressured you to shave your moustache, saying: “What is this? Enough with that.”

Association Head Fathi Ahmad Mahmoud “Moustache”: My personality forces people to treat me with respect.

Interviewer: Didn’t your friends, relatives, your wife, or your children say: “Enough is enough”?

Fathi Ahmad Mahmoud “Moustache”: They are all proud of me. My youngest boy, Nader, calls himself “Nader Moustache.” Get it? All his friends call him “Nader Moustache.”

[...]

Interviewer: Do you respect all types of moustaches – regardless of their size, length, or width?

Allam Muhammad Abdel Al-Halim: Of course.

Interviewer: Even Hitler’s moustache?

Captain Sayyed Shahada: By the way, I respect the moustache of this Hitler, because he humiliated the most despicable sect in the world. He subdued the people who subdued the whole world – him with his “11” moustache. By the way, that kind of moustache is called “11.” The generation of this Hitler... When I was little, my father, may he rest in peace, grew that kind of moustache, and so did all his class members. They all had this “11” moustache. That was in the days of Hitler... My father...

Interviewer: That was the fashion back then.

Captain Sayyed Shahada: Exactly. I should know – my father was a barber.

[...]

Fathi Ahmad Mahmoud “Moustache”: We have different models. One model is “the Douglas.” Then there’s “the Pretzel,” which is rolled like this... The “Two Swords” model stands up like that... The “Mafroud” is flat like a ruler. Another model is the “Carter,” which comes out from here and is very wide.

Interviewer: What is it called?

Fathi Ahmad Mahmoud “Moustache”: The “Carter.” We have two special hair designers, Muhammad Salomon and Yasser Imam. They are the association’s designers. They designed all these models.

[...]

Fathi Ahmad Mahmoud “Moustache”: In the days of King Farouq, anybody who grew a moustache would get a raise.

Interviewer: Really?

Fathi Ahmad Mahmoud “Moustache”: Yes, they would get a raise.

The United States gives Egypt more than $2 billion a year in foreign aid.

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185 comments

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1 Ben Hur  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:21:20am

Of course they do.

2 CIA Reject  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:21:53am

Ya can't make this sh*t up!

3 Ojoe  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:22:03am
4 maddogg  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:22:52am

Somebody tell that fool to take the water buffalo out of his mouth.

5 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:22:54am
the Egyptian Unique Moustache Association

Where's Monty Python when you need them?

6 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:23:18am

"this Hitler" was a shitbag. No wonder he has such respect for "this Hitler"

7 laZardo  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:23:29am

The Great Dictator does not approve of his mustache being reduced to a simple number.

8 pat  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:23:42am

A sense of style.

9 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:25:29am
10 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:26:00am
Do you respect all types of moustaches – regardless of their size, length, or width?

Why am I getting the feeling that these 'staches are sublimations?

11 Ben Hur  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:26:05am

The guy with the camo is the Egyptian fashion attempt to be cool and western.

He fails miserably.

12 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:26:06am

even is a mustache interveiw,it all comes back to the hated jooooos."look at my feirce mustachios and tremble you sons of pigs!"

13 HugoChavez  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:26:20am

What's up with dictators and mustaches anyway?

Do I need to rethink my facial hair?

Isn't this mug perfect the way it is

14 jaunte  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:26:43am

This mustache needs some whacks.

15 eschew_obfuscation  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:27:21am

Does Godwin's Law apply on the Hitler Mustache thread?

16 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:27:32am

re: #10 MandyManners
mandy please refrain from using big words as they make my head hurt
/

17 CIA Reject  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:27:43am

re: #10 MandyManners

Why am I getting the feeling that these 'staches are sublimations?

DING! DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!

18 Ben Hur  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:27:46am

I'm sure their pubes are longer than their penii, also.

19 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:28:00am

A Jewish Vanity Fair reporter grew a Hitler 'stache and wrote about it a few months ago.

20 Wilderstad  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:28:29am

They're crazy for cookie crumb catchers.

21 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:28:57am
I respect the moustache of this Hitler, because he humiliated the most despicable sect in the world. He subdued the people who subdued the whole world

Gee, I wonder who he could be talking about...

22 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:29:22am

re: #18 Ben Hur

on the contrary the guy probably has only one pubic hair,...and it pisses....

23 wolfie  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:29:55am

I want to know what the "Carter" looks like!

24 stevieray  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:30:10am

The Douglas.
The Pretzel.
Two Swords.
The Mafroud.
The Carter? [wtf?]

How about the Dirty Sanchez? Heh. I wanna see that one!

/not really

25 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:30:20am

re: #18 Ben Hur

I'm sure their pubes are longer than their penii, also.

Plural is penes or penises.

26 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:30:30am

They have a mustache called the Carter?!

Maybe it's a peachfuzz mustache, you know, a real malaise style.

28 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:30:50am

re: #19 MandyManners

the ladies must have been flocking to him."wow,you look just like charlie chaplin!"

29 Amy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:30:51am
By the way, I respect the moustache of this Hitler, because he humiliated the most despicable sect in the world. He subdued the people who subdued the whole world – him with his “11” moustache.

It's no secret that the Egyptians are (officially and unofficially) rabidly antisemitic. Note that, as is typical among Arabs and Muslims, it's all about "humiliation" and "subduing" others. The moustache is a proxy for an Arab's manhood; thus, when Hamas wanted to humiliate Fatah, it shaved off Fatah members' moustaches. Oh, my! I'll bet the Fatah men instantly became impotent.

I am royally sick and tired of this benighted, primitive society. It is a blight on the world.

30 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:30:56am

Is this today's Bob Herbert thread?

31 JimmyTheClaw  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:31:11am

not mentioned is the "Bolton"

32 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:31:16am

Delightful to hear they also have a moustache style called "the Carter"!

Why am I not surprised?

33 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:31:23am

Know what would make this guys 'stache look better? Fire.

34 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:31:42am

re: #23 wolfie

A limp hanging manchu style

35 Wendya  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:31:55am

It would be a real shame if he set that on fire while puffing away.

/not

36 Maine's Michael  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:32:18am
The United States gives Egypt more than $2 billion a year in foreign aid.

I propose strings be attached.

$1.9 billion should go to razors.

37 Ben Hur  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:32:23am

re: #25 MandyManners

Plural is penes or penises.


PENII!

38 Big Steve  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:33:02am

re: #10 MandyManners

Why am I getting the feeling that these 'staches are sublimations?

what about the all important "girth"

39 laZardo  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:33:06am

re: #37 Ben Hur

re: #25 MandyManners

Speaking of which, it just turned Hump Day over here.

/confetti

40 stevieray  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:33:11am

Are the Hamster getting uppity, or is it me?

41 Sharmuta  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:33:22am

re: #30 MandyManners

Is this today's Bob Herbert thread?

It must be- look at those phallic, racist, anti-obama mustaches!

42 Iron Fist  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:33:23am

re: #31 JimmyTheClaw

Mohammedans are afraid of that one.

43 ebed_melech  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:34:17am

That famous moderate Anwar Sadat in his younger years reportedly said, 'My dear Hitler, I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart. Even if you appear to have been defeated, in reality you are the victor. You succeeded in creating dissensions between Churchill, the old man, and his allies, the Sons of Satan. Germany will win because her existence is necessary to preserve the world balance. Germany will be reborn in spite of the Western and Eastern powers. There will be no peace unless Germany once again becomes what she was.'

And there's many arabic copies of Mein Kampf in Cairo, as most here may know.

Who says fascism has no connexions with Islam?

44 wolfie  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:34:43am

I'm trying to picture Obama with a moustache.
Why am I giggling?

45 Dahveed  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:34:45am

In America we watch American Idol, Big Brother, and other such shows. In Egypt they watch shows professing respect for Hitler's moustache.

And I thought we were screwed up.

46 The Other Les  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:34:55am

Cheech Marin had a better mustache.

47 Silhouette  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:35:28am

I like Bolton's 'stache the best.

48 Amy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:35:51am

re: #43 ebed_melech

Got a link to a reputable source for that Sadat quote?

49 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:35:59am
50 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:36:09am

Speaking of mustaches:

Why does Dolly Parton's husband wear a mustache?

To hide the stretch marks around his mouth.

51 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:36:36am

Ahhh--yer fadder's moustache

52 Silhouette  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:36:56am

Hate-filled, death-worshiping, anti-semetic filth aside, that is a fairly spectacular moustache!

53 OldLineTexan  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:37:19am

Mine is sort a faux Fu...I do not let it grow off my face, but it does go all the way to my manly jawline. ;)

54 blutonazi98  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:38:03am

Fathi Ahmad Mahmoud “Moustache”; "i call this one the Cackling Hen. it looks like the rear-end of a chicken on both the left and the right but strangely as if the chicken to a crap right in the middle. it is quite fashionable in my neighborhood."

55 Amy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:38:32am

re: #50 reine.de.tout

Speaking of mustaches:

Why does Dolly Parton's husband wear a mustache?

To hide the stretch marks around his mouth.

Ba dum dum! :P ;)

56 itellu3times  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:38:42am
Egyptians Worship Hitler's Moustache

Pharoah turns over in his grave.

57 ebed_melech  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:38:55am
58 StinkHammer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:39:14am

re: #3 Ojoe

cats that look like hitler

Shit, somebody beat me to it...

That site makes me laugh out loud.

59 blutonazi98  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:39:15am

oops Fathi Ahmad Mahmoud “Moustache” meant to say "took a crap" not "to a crap"

60 laZardo  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:39:22am

And I'm gonna check in for the night. (: Check out my #14, and I'll see you on the next thread I come back to.

61 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:39:23am
62 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:39:51am

and yer mudder's too

63 ebed_melech  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:40:10am

Missed it here's the reference

1. Sadat's letter, Al Musawwar, No. 1510, September 18,1953, cited in D.F. Green, ed., Arab Theologians on Jews and Israel (Geneva, 1976 ed.), p. 87. Quoted also by Gideon Hausner, November 16, 1971, at New York. Also see Harkabi, Arab Attitudes, pp. 276-277, for other examples.

64 laZardo  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:40:17am

re: #60 laZardo

PIMF, my #7.

65 realwest  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:41:42am

But for the Anti-Semitic bullshit, this would be a fairly funny story.
Not as funny as the comment all y'all have put up here, but funny nonetheless!

BTW - is anyone else having a little difficulty getting stuff to post and having to wait and wait when hitting the new comments button?

66 famousmortimer78  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:41:47am

This is why Egypt has such a great economy: rewarding innovators and problem-solvers, i.e. mustache growers.

67 Silhouette  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:42:05am

Would you have believed yesterday is someone told you there was such a thing as the Egyptian Unique Moustache Association?

68 Amy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:42:27am

re: #57 ebed_melech

OK. Footnote #1 to the article you linked to cites reputable scholars who have quoted the letter in their works. Thanks.

69 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:43:07am

re: #65 realwest

same here rw

70 Timbre  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:44:13am
He subdued the people who subdued the whole world – him with his “11” moustache. By the way, that kind of moustache is called “11.”

11. The "imperfect" number. How fitting for such a supremacist society.

71 maddogg  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:44:20am

If I were to go for the dried snot under the nose look, I would choose this guy.

72 Amy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:44:24am

re: #65 realwest

BTW - is anyone else having a little difficulty getting stuff to post and having to wait and wait when hitting the new comments button?

Yes.

Hi, realwest!

73 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:44:37am

Well, the Palestinians consider it an affront to shave the mustaches. Birds of a feather perhaps.

74 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:45:10am

Militants planned 'year of mourning' in China

two local men from the Uighur ethnic group - named as Kebanyan Ahmet and Abdul Rahman - had confessed to carjacking a truck, then running it at high speed into a group of paramilitary police out jogging. They then lobbed home-made bombs at the survivors and finished off others with knives. Sixteen police were killed and sixteen injured. Two remain in a critical condition.

One suspect lost an arm in an explosion. Police said they later found nine unused bombs, two knives, two daggers, a gun and a letter among the possessions of the assailants.

In the letter, the attackers - one a vegetable seller, the other a taxi driver - reportedly stated that religious beliefs were more important than their own lives or their wives or their mothers so they would devote themselves to jihad, or religious war.

more info

Among a dozen or so people approached by the Guardian, more than half said their lives have improved in the past five years thanks to China's economic growth, but others expressed frustration at controls on Islam.

"There is no religious freedom," said a student. "I can only wear a long dress and headscarf at home because it is forbidden at my university." Teachers in the public school system are dismissed if they grow beards, which are seen as a sign of religious belief.

At the Idkah Mosque in the main square, the authorities have posted up a sign warning worshippers that they are committing a crime if they visit Mecca as individuals, rather than going on a tour organised by the state-affiliated religious organisations. "Organised and planned prayer is national policy," begins the document. "Muslim citizens should not believe the lies of those who want to organise illegal trips."

75 StinkHammer  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:45:54am

re: #65 realwest

BTW - is anyone else having a little difficulty getting stuff to post and having to wait and wait when hitting the new comments button?

Yes.

76 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:46:23am

re: #65 realwest

But for the Anti-Semitic bullshit, this would be a fairly funny story.
Not as funny as the comment all y'all have put up here, but funny nonetheless!

BTW - is anyone else having a little difficulty getting stuff to post and having to wait and wait when hitting the new comments button?

yes.

77 Cygnus  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:46:26am

re: #34 Boondock St. Bender

A limp hanging manchu style

Now, that's definitely Freudian.

78 wolfie  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:46:42am

re: #65 realwest

Same s-l-o-w problem, RW !

79 Cygnus  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:48:00am

re: #44 wolfie

I'm trying to picture Obama with a moustache.
Why am I giggling?

Time for some Photoshop.

80 bosforus  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:48:56am
My personality forces people to treat me with respect.

And what a charming personality he has!

81 pingjockey  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:50:03am

I had to come and look at this thread for the title alone!

82 Boondock St. Bender  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:50:16am

re: #77 Cygnus

thats the "carter"a limp hanging manchu style.

83 Tigger2005  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:53:19am

Why not worship Charlie Chaplin's moustache? I think it was actually alive. Hitler's just sat there on his lip like a dead thing.

84 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:53:34am

African Proverb:
"The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The second best time is now."

Modern version: The best time to drill for oil was 10 years ago during the Clinton administration. The second best time is now."

85 pingjockey  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:53:36am

Nah, the "carter" looks like a skinned rabbit.

86 stevieray  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:53:46am

Hello?

87 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:54:37am
88 Opinionated  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:54:49am
The United States gives Egypt more than $2 billion a year in foreign aid.

It could be worse? The Bush Administration could give it away to domestic enemies.

[Link: www.newsmax.com...]

89 DistantThunder  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:55:09am

re: #76 reine.de.tout

yes.

Yes, I noticed that too.

90 Athos  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:56:06am

re: #80 bosforus

A legend in his own mind......

Just another way to, you know, compensate....

91 ebed_melech  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:58:21am

re: #29 Amy

Of course, that raises interesting questions about the whole murky relationship between Islam and the old fertility religions.
It's no coincidence that most mosques are shaped as they are, or that the object of worship the Kaaba is shaped as it is, or rather the silver frame around it.
Nor indeed the curious rites that Lane reports which connects marriage with that worship.
Delicacy prevents detail here.

The greatest irony of all is that the Allah who is Akbar (greater) is actually infertile - he has no progeny. Which is not only the greatest of disgraces to a man in Arab circles, it also runs deeply against Arab idiom ( as many of the nom de guerres show -Abu Mazen, Abu etc etc, = the father of ...)

92 lifeofthemind  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:58:41am

These guys should sue for having their niche stolen. Problem is no one takes them seriously until they kill.

93 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 9:59:27am

Association Head Fathi Ahmad Mahmoud “Moustache”

My own moustache is called the "Broadside Canoe"

94 Archimedes  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:01:00am

There is a poll of the troops that shows McCain versus Obama and Hillary. I think from about three weeks ago. Does anyone know where that poll is?

Thanks!

95 Cap'n DOC  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:01:33am

re: #85 pingjockey

Maybe he meant the Kotter.

96 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:02:43am

re: #91 ebed_melech

It's no coincidence that most mosques are shaped as they are, or that the object of worship the Kaaba is shaped as it is, or rather the silver frame around it.

This?

Go to MSN's maps to get a good satellite view of the mosque at Mecca.

97 Opinionated  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:03:03am

I respect John Bolton's moustache and if it the source of his wisdom would mandate it for all State Dept personnel...even the women.

98 realwest  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:03:27am

re: #72 Amy Hey hi Amy! How are you doing? My nic's in blue if you feel like dropping me a line!

99 Colonel Panik  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:05:55am

A Curse Upon All Their Moustaches!

100 ebed_melech  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:07:06am

re: #96 MandyManners
Yep.
Lane describes the bridegroom doing his prayers with his bride in the way of the Kaaba (something Muslims are usually very loathe to allow, as I found when I once got in the way by mistake).

It strongly suggests that the root of Islam is womb worship. Maybe something to do with Hagar and Ishmael, a dominant single Mum - I speculate.

101 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:07:08am

I'm sorry, this is hilarious.

102 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:12:30am

Very interesting:

A respected author's new book indicates that the White House ordered the CIA to forge documents linking Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

103 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:14:11am

re: #100 ebed_melech

Yep.
Lane describes the bridegroom doing his prayers with his bride in the way of the Kaaba (something Muslims are usually very loathe to allow, as I found when I once got in the way by mistake).

It strongly suggests that the root of Islam is womb worship. Maybe something to do with Hagar and Ishmael, a dominant single Mum - I speculate.

I think Islam despises the vagina.

104 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:15:14am
105 maddogg  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:16:04am

re: #102 Cognito

Yeah, respected by troofers, koskids, and moonbats everywhere.

106 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:17:25am

re: #105 maddogg

Nah, he's pretty well regarded actually.

107 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:18:03am

re: #103 MandyManners

I think Islam despises the vagina.

Despises, and perhaps, fears.

108 lifeofthemind  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:18:25am

Didn't the CIA try to overthrow Castro by making his beard fall out?

109 NY Nana  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:18:58am

A friend in Ottawa, who was born in a refugee camp in Europe, to parents who survived the camps, sent this.***(speakers on)

It is irony that al_NYT, who chose to ignore the Shoah, when they could have helped awaken people to what was happening, and did not, decided to run this...I cannot laugh about this topic...and these pictures gave me a shock in that they look like the nazis were so 'normal' while Jews were burning in ovens so close to where they were relaxing from their 'jobs' at Auschwitz.

110 Cap'n DOC  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:19:10am

re: #101 Cognito

I'm curious. Why sorry? There's no ink in that.

111 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:20:06am

re: #110 Cap'n DOC

I'm curious. Why sorry? There's no ink in that.

I have no idea what you mean. What about ink?

112 Pastorius  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:20:07am

I've seen Muslim men in Orange County, CA wearing the Hitler moustache.

It makes me sick to my stomach.

113 ebed_melech  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:21:03am

re: #103 MandyManners

I don't think it's so simple, Mandy. In some ways, the very contrary, every woman is a priestess, that's why they have to be wrapped up, protected from other men and hidden from view. A family's honour is bound up with the sacredness of its women - I'm only expressing what I've seen and heard.

Of course in practice it often turns into very serious abuse.

114 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:21:15am

re: #104 buzzsawmonkey

Except for the Big Silver Vagina in the Big Black Box.

Love/hate.

115 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:21:51am

bbl

116 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:23:55am

re: #102 Cognito

Very interesting:

A respected author's new book indicates that the White House ordered the CIA to forge documents linking Al-Qaeda and Saddam Hussein.

It must be true, as all accusations against the Bush admin that fit the "Bush Lied" narrative are true.

Interesting that, despite this alleged forgery, few accepted a command based link between a secular Saddam and a fanatic AQ at the time. The repeated, core rationale for war at the time was that 1441 wasn't doing the job and an opaque Saddam administration with its established penchant for WMDs and mischief was no longer and acceptable risk post 9/11.

BTW - I found that the 550 tons of yellowcake that were recently sold by Iraq to a Canadian firm quite interesting. But I forget, Saddam had no nuclear weapons program.

117 realwest  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:24:42am

Well all y'all it's been grand as usual but I gotta go mush some lunch now!
Hope you all have a GREAT DAY and that I get the chance to see you down the road.

118 Spiny Norman  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:25:01am

re: #106 Cognito

Nah, he's pretty well regarded actually.

So was I.F. Stone. So was Walter Duranty. Seymour Hersh is "well regarded", but he's still a hyperventilating Marxist propagandist.

Al Gore won the Nobel Prize, but that doesn't change the fact that he talks out his ass.

119 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:25:14am

re: #103 MandyManners

I think Islam despises the vagina

Followers of Mo adore the Txlotl* tanks


* spelling question

120 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:25:39am

re: #102 Cognito

Respected by who? The uber-left, BDS types? That's the kind of books he's peddled in the past, and this latest is no different.

121 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:25:44am

re: #116 karmic_inquisitor

Yep, all true.

122 victor_yugo  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:26:53am

re: #102 Cognito

Without primary documents, it's false allegations. If the alleged order was allegedly written on allegedly creamy-colored White house stationery, where is it (allegedly)?

I'm willing to bet cash that, upon investigation, this will be as substantial as the Winter Soldier.

123 yma o hyd  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:27:01am

re: #109 NY Nana

As said on the commentary on that video, and as coined by Hannah Arendt - Evil is banal, its done by ordinary humans, not by raving monsters.
Thats why it is so easy to slip into a mindset which allows one to look aside, turn away, or slowly start actively participating.
As Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn so memorably said, 'the line between Good and evil goes trhough every single heart ...'
Given the right circumstances, falling into evil can be very easy indeed ...

Thanks for that link, NY Nana!

124 Spiny Norman  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:27:11am

How many books have there been now that promoted the "Bush lied, people died!" line that weren't worth the paper they were printed on?

125 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:28:34am

re: #123 yma o hyd
The banality is still startling at times though, as in those pictures.

126 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:29:00am
127 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:29:04am

re: #120 lawhawk

Respected by who? The uber-left, BDS types? That's the kind of books he's peddled in the past, and this latest is no different.

He's not, that I'm aware, a "BDS type" -- for years he was a senior national affairs writer for the Wall Street Journal.

Regardless, I'm not interested in him. I'm interested in facts -- if he's got 'em, I'll listen. If it's just fluff, then I won't bother.

128 Killian Bundy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:29:28am

They're more like beards than mustaches.

/either way, just begging for a Bic lighter

129 Spiny Norman  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:29:47am

re: #122 victor_yugo

Without primary documents, it's false allegations. If the alleged order was allegedly written on allegedly creamy-colored White house stationery, where is it (allegedly)?

I'm willing to bet cash that, upon investigation, this will be as substantial as the Winter Soldier.

An entire book based on rumor and "unnamed sources". It's tabloid journalism in hardcover.

130 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:30:45am

re: #129 Spiny Norman

An entire book based on rumor and "unnamed sources". It's tabloid journalism in hardcover.

How do you know? It's not out yet.

131 NY Nana  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:30:56am

re: #105 maddogg

And also by a Ron Paul groupie, the one and only Lew Rockwell.

132 wolfie  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:31:40am

re: #106 Cognito

Nah, he's pretty well regarded actually.

Not so.
Even academic lefties admit his work is poorly documented.
His accusations are always "true," of course. (The left knows this by means of gnostic revelation.) But he disappoints bitterly when it comes to proof. Or as the lefties might say, his work is "fake but accurate."
I expect this latest effort by Mr. Suskind, w/ even more exciting effusions, will fail to deliver the goods.
One more bright, semi-talented soul turned into a thirdrate hack by the power of BDS.

133 Spiny Norman  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:31:45am

re: #126 buzzsawmonkey

On NPR this morning there was an interview with an author, Ron Suskind, who claims that the Bush White House knew that Saddam had no WMD and intentionally fabricated the intelligence which undergirded the war. In other words, Bush Lied--The Sequel!

If the Bushitler Regime™ fabricated the intel, why did they forget to plant the evidence? It would have been very east to do. Did Suskind bother to ask himself this question?

134 doriangrey  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:31:46am

re: #124 Spiny Norman

How many books have there been now that promoted the "Bush lied, people died!" line that weren't worth the paper they were printed on?

Yup, Bush lied and people died, which undoubtedly explains why congress has refused to even remotely entertain the notion of impeachment hearings.

135 realwest  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:31:48am

re: #102 Cognito
Ah, sorry Cog, just read your link and found this to be of some interest:
"The White House flatly denied Suskind’s account. Tony Fratto, deputy White House press secretary, told Politico: “The allegation that the White House directed anyone to forge a document from Habbush to Saddam is just absurd.”

The White House plans to push back hard. Fratto added: "Ron Suskind makes a living from gutter journalism. He is about selling books and making wild allegations that no one can verify, including the numerous bipartisan commissions that have reported on pre-war intelligence."

Before “The Way of the World: A Story of Truth and Hope in an Age of Extremism,” Suskind wrote two New York Times bestsellers critical of the Bush administration – “The Price of Loyalty” (2004), which featured extensive comments by former Treasury Secretary Paul O’Neill, and “The One Percent Doctrine” (2006).
[emphasis added, realwest]
And, iirc, the belief that Saddam had WMD's was also the conclussion reached, independently by the British, French, Italian and Spanish intelligence services.
Now I'm really outta here!

136 Spiny Norman  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:32:32am

*easy* not east.

137 yma o hyd  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:32:32am

re: #125 scottishbuzzsaw

The banality is still startling at times though, as in those pictures.

Yes, it is indeed!
And that, I think, is the point of showing stuff like it: these were not raving lunatics, foaming at the mouth - they were normal people who had handed over their ability to think for themselves to the Nazi Party (or the Communist Party, in the then SU) and did what was asked of them without thinking any further - it was 'just a job' ...
And thats why things like that, God forbid, can indeed happen again. Just think of the many helpers and glorifiers in the families of jihadists - all 'normal' ...

138 dr.mister  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:33:06am

Doing a quick Google search on 'staches, came across this graphic:
'Stache styles

The "Jihad Jack" would have fit right in with these guys.

139 Iron Fist  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:33:18am

re: #126 buzzsawmonkey


For Bush to have really lied in this fashion, he'd have had to start fabricating evidence during the Clinton Administration, using Clinton Administration people. damn, that wiley Bush!

The truth is more obvious: the Democrats liked Saddam Hussein and want to see him back in power. Too bad he's dead.

140 Silhouette  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:33:22am

4000 people saying good things about Bush do not equal the weight of just one saying bad things in the eyes of the willfully deceived.

Ergo, Cindy Sheehan.

141 Big Steve  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:34:08am

re: #114 MandyManners

Love/hate.

Wonder if anyone has ever thought of stealing the stone. Might make a good movie.

142 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:35:33am

re: #135 realwest

Yes, multiple intelligence services arrived at the conclusion that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

I'm certainly not a proponent of the idea that Bush somehow hornswoggled the country into war -- I think he did the best he could with the intelligence available. But if Suskind has the goods, I'm willing to hear him out. If he doesn't, then I won't give it a second thought.

143 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:35:45am

re: #137 yma o hyd

Yes, it is indeed!
And that, I think, is the point of showing stuff like it: these were not raving lunatics, foaming at the mouth - they were normal people who had handed over their ability to think for themselves to the Nazi Party (or the Communist Party, in the then SU) and did what was asked of them without thinking any further - it was 'just a job' ...
And thats why things like that, God forbid, can indeed happen again. Just think of the many helpers and glorifiers in the families of jihadists - all 'normal' ...

I agree...I keep calling this an age of 'unreason' ~ it's appearing in many quarters. We cannot forget what we are capable of, not in any generation!

144 mfarmer1  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:35:58am

re: #5 Sharmuta

Where's Monty Python when you need them?

Ahmed: "Listen, if you wanted to join the EUMA, you'd really have to hate the Jews."

Mohammed: "I do!"

Ahmed: "Oh yeah? How much?"

Mohammed: "A lot!"

Ahmed: "Right. You're in."

145 victor_yugo  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:36:17am

re: #127 Cognito

He's not, that I'm aware, a "BDS type" -- for years he was a senior national affairs writer for the Wall Street Journal.

Regardless, I'm not interested in him. I'm interested in facts -- if he's got 'em, I'll listen. If it's just fluff, then I won't bother.

Okay, here's an assertion:

“The White House had concocted a fake letter from Habbush to Saddam, backdated to July 1, 2001,” Suskind writes. “It said that 9/11 ringleader Mohammad Atta had actually trained for his mission in Iraq – thus showing, finally, that there was an operational link between Saddam and al Qaeda, something the Vice President’s Office had been pressing CIA to prove since 9/11 as a justification to invade Iraq. There is no link.

(My emphasis.)

This ignores the fact that Saddam Hussein had wanted to be part and parcel of the terror organization most able to strike at the United States, as recently as two years before 9/11. In fact, the uber-liberal CNN reported it themselves!

146 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:36:29am

re: #127 Cognito

That's just it - his last two books are BDS pablum, and it doesn't matter that he wrote for the WSJ or any other national paper. He could be a Pulitzer Prize winner for all I care - but his opinion is BDS and Bush lied, and has proffered no evidence. He's just peddling opiate to the masses that think Bush lied.

147 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:37:36am

re: #124 Spiny Norman

How many books have there been now that promoted the "Bush lied, people died!" line that weren't worth the paper they were printed on?

I recently converted my father-in-law out of the BDS camp.

He went as far as to cancel his Newsweek subscription.

The catalyst for him was the 550 tons of yellowcake. He didn't believe it at first and I had to show him the AP story IN PRINT before he would accept that it existed.

From that the entire narrative of "Saddam had no WMD program" unwound for him.

When you think about the first assertions that the anti-war crowd made, you realize that they weren't nearly as far reaching as they are now. They simply said "no smoking gun" saying that there were no stockpiles of battlefield ready WMDs that posed an "imminent threat."

That was their standard and if they had stuck to it they'd have some credibility.

But they went further and harder and now the BDS is so extreme that they make irrational, baseless assertions that play to the crowd but are easy to refute.

Saddam had a WMD program, though much was on ice in anticipation of the UN lifting sanctions (which France and Germany were pushing hard for, and had established contracts with Saddam in anticipation of). Saddam wanted to deter Iran.

If we had gone the European route, we would have a full on nuclear arms race between competing tyrannies in the Middle East and AQ would never have set foot in the "kill zone" that Iraq proved to be (better terrain for our kind of fighting).

Time to correct the narrative.

148 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:37:57am
149 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:38:48am

re: #146 lawhawk

That's just it - his last two books are BDS pablum, and it doesn't matter that he wrote for the WSJ or any other national paper. He could be a Pulitzer Prize winner for all I care - but his opinion is BDS and Bush lied, and has proffered no evidence. He's just peddling opiate to the masses that think Bush lied.

Again, I couldn't care less about Suskind. I'm interested in facts.
Facts = you've got my attention.
Rumors = I'd rather watch preseason football.

And for what it's worth, yes: He did win the Pulitzer Prize.

150 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:39:41am

re: #146 lawhawk

That's just it - his last two books are BDS pablum, and it doesn't matter that he wrote for the WSJ or any other national paper. He could be a Pulitzer Prize winner for all I care - but his opinion is BDS and Bush lied, and has proffered no evidence. He's just peddling opiate to the masses that think Bush lied.

He *is* a Pulitzer Prize winner.

151 Killian Bundy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:39:41am

re: #141 Big Steve

Wonder if anyone has ever thought of stealing the stone

Why nuke Mecca, when we can simply confiscate the black three-piece meteorite, a stationary target which their "religion" prohibits them from moving. It's located in an open air mosque and it's not far from the water. Any such operation is well within our military/paramilitary capabilities.

/I don't think a safe 45 minute air corridor over Saudi soil is too much to ask for

152 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:40:00am

re: #150 MandyManners

I wanna' shoot myself.

153 yma o hyd  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:41:17am

re: #152 MandyManners

I wanna' shoot myself.

Why?

154 scottishbuzzsaw  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:41:43am

re: #152 MandyManners

I wanna' shoot myself.

Please don't.

155 doriangrey  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:41:48am

re: #149 Cognito

Again, I couldn't care less about Suskind. I'm interested in facts.
Facts = you've got my attention.
Rumors = I'd rather watch preseason football.

And for what it's worth, yes: He did win the Pulitzer Prize.

Yes, and so did a New York Slimes reporter who claimed that Stalins gulags were peaceful quaint little villages.

156 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:42:19am
157 Spiny Norman  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:42:35am

re: #142 Cognito

But if Suskind has the goods, I'm willing to hear him out. If he doesn't, then I won't give it a second thought.

Suskind has no evidence, only hearsay, otherwise he'd be waving it in front of the camera. He's just a yet another mouthpiece for a faction within the CIA that has been working to undermine the White House since the day Bush took office.

158 victor_yugo  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:43:03am

re: #149 Cognito

And for what it's worth, yes: He did win the Pulitzer Prize.

When the Pulitzer committee refused to revoke Walter Duranty's prize for his whitewash of Holodomor, the last shreds of respect I had for them disappeared into ashes.

Suskind's Pulitzer isn't worth powder and shot to blow it up.

159 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:45:06am

re: #157 Spiny Norman

Suskind has no evidence, only hearsay, otherwise he'd be waving it in front of the camera. He's just a yet another mouthpiece for a faction within the CIA that has been working to undermine the White House since the day Bush took office.

I'm not sure how you know what he's got, as the book isn't out yet... We'll know momentarily, though.

160 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:45:07am
161 doriangrey  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:45:17am

re: #157 Spiny Norman

Suskind has no evidence, only hearsay, otherwise he'd be waving it in front of the camera. He's just a yet another mouthpiece for a faction within the CIA that has been working to undermine the White House since the day Bush took office.

Speaking of a faction within the CIA that has been working to undermine the White House since the day Bush took office, anyone hear anything out of Joe Wilson or Valerie Plame since that 550 ton shipment of yellowcake arrived in Canada?

162 Spiny Norman  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:51:55am

re: #159 Cognito

I'm not sure how you know what he's got, as the book isn't out yet... We'll know momentarily, though.

If he had hard evidence - actual documents - he'd still be waving in front of the cameras, whether his book as been released or not. Something like that would generate far more publicity than he's getting now. It would be Front Page, above the fold, not just talk-show circuit promos.

163 Big Steve  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:52:57am

re: #151 Killian Bundy

I am not advocating really doing this.....I just think it would make a great movie plot. I am picturing Bruce Willis as the lead but I can't decide if he steals the stone or is the rescue guy. Part of the plot would be to get it, and analyze it to determine what it is.

164 ypnxjkb  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:53:27am

"My personality forces people to treat me with respect."

Reminds me of a cartoon fat kid on a Big-wheel with a plastic badge.

165 RobCon  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:54:10am

I wonder if Egyptian women do their own version of the Hitler moustache.

166 Big Steve  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:58:25am

re: #165 RobCon

I wonder if Egyptian women do their own version of the Hitler moustache.

I don't know, looks kind of line a Brazilian wax job to me.


Kaaba

167 Athos  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 10:59:30am

Suskind's book appears to be just another re-tread of the lament that 'Bush Lied'. It would be interesting if the former CIA officials who are his sources for the claim of a falsified letter are really on the record or if this is just another shadow warrior exercise to redefine the debate away from the success in Iraq in liberating it from a thug like Saddam and the huge defeat of AQ and Mookie's Militia in their self-defined central battlefield.

However, Bush was not the only one who said that Saddam was in clear violation of the UNSC resolutions, UNMOVIC's March 6, 2003 report 2 weeks before the invasion detailed numerous breeches of the UNSC resolutions.

Furthermore, there are far more than a single document linking AQ and Saddam and these, as noted above by another, date into the Clinton Administration. One example of a series of documents indicating a link.

168 Mr Spiffy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:04:56am

re: #165 RobCon

I wonder if Egyptian women do their own version of the Hitler moustache.

That's just wrong...but I updinged you anyway

169 Athos  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:08:30am

re: #162 Spiny Norman

Exactly. He was pretty coy in the puff interview on The Today show this morning.

He claims those close to Tenet, who supposedly carried the order from the WH, and now vehemently denies it, are coming forward to clear their consciences. He says they are 'on the record' - but will he name names? What proof is there that these shadow warriors are not just expousing another collection of lies like those passed by Joe Wilson and ignored by so many who prefer to see only what they want to believe?

Is the argument being redefined away from the success in Iraq - the liberation from Saddam's thuggery, the establishment of a democracy in Iraq - one that has a national assembly that has accomplished more than the current US Congress, and the clear and decisive defeat of AQ in what they defined as the central battlefield against the US?

170 anotherindyfilmguy  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:11:02am

re: #147 karmic_inquisitor

Sometimes I can't help but think a full on nuclear arms race in the middle east would be "self correcting" after a while... the only problem being:
1. Israel being nuked...
2. The US having to deal with after effects*/maybe being nuked...
(both of which are unacceptable)

*drilling through glass with radiation suits for awhile might not be so bad if there's no one around to collect the check for the unaffected oil below ground...

171 willowone  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:29:27am

i wonder if those purported documents are 1 real , snort, second if so were they to fill in gap of documents that ended up in bergers' pants

172 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:33:33am

re: #149 Cognito

I am curious about one thing:

If the White House (let's assume he means Cheney) ordered the CIA to forge this letter to "prove" the link between al Qaeda & Saddam, why are we only hearing about this letter now? Why didn't the CIA release the letter in 2003 during the run-up to the war? Who told Suskind about this letter now and why?

173 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:41:29am

By the way, in Operation Cobra II, authors Bernard E. Trainor & Michael R. Gordon reveal that during a meeting between Saddam & his top generals just days before the US led invasion began, the generals asked Saddam when he would give them his chemical & biological weapons and what his orders are for the use of them. Saddam stunned the generals when he told them that Iraq had no WMD. Saddam had carefully constructed the impression that Iraq still had them & each general assumed they were held by some other general. Even Saddam's top generals believed Iraq possessed WMD, but in the end, nobody had them.

174 Cognito  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:01:27pm

re: #172 Kenneth

I am curious about one thing:

If the White House (let's assume he means Cheney) ordered the CIA to forge this letter to "prove" the link between al Qaeda & Saddam, why are we only hearing about this letter now? Why didn't the CIA release the letter in 2003 during the run-up to the war? Who told Suskind about this letter now and why?

Actually I believe this letter was indeed reported on, years ago.

175 Spiny Norman  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:06:34pm

re: #174 Cognito

Actually I believe this letter was indeed reported on, years ago.

And dismissed by all and sundry in the Media, apparently. Witness the constant drumbeat ever since about "no link between Saddam and 9/11".

176 Spiny Norman  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:11:12pm

re: #173 Kenneth

By the way, in Operation Cobra II, authors Bernard E. Trainor & Michael R. Gordon reveal that during a meeting between Saddam & his top generals just days before the US led invasion began, the generals asked Saddam when he would give them his chemical & biological weapons and what his orders are for the use of them. Saddam stunned the generals when he told them that Iraq had no WMD. Saddam had carefully constructed the impression that Iraq still had them & each general assumed they were held by some other general. Even Saddam's top generals believed Iraq possessed WMD, but in the end, nobody had them.

He kept up the appearance of having (and concealing) these WMD stockpiles to keep the Iranians at bay. He had no fear of any action by the UN or the US, until the very day of the invasion.

He had every intention of restarting his WMD programs, once the international sanctions were lifted. This would absolutely have happened by now - his millions and millions in "Oil for Food" bribes saw to that - had the US-led coalition not intervened.

177 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:13:13pm

re: #174 Cognito

Do you have a link about that?

178 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:25:18pm

Note the time-line:

The letter’s existence has been reported before, and it had been written about as if it were genuine. It was passed in Baghdad to a reporter for The (London) Sunday Telegraph who wrote about it on the front page of Dec. 14, 2003, under the headline, “Terrorist behind September 11 strike ‘was trained by Saddam.’”

The Telegraph story by Con Coughlin (which, coincidentally, ran the day Hussein was captured in his “spider hole”) was touted in the U.S. media by supporters of the war, and he was interviewed on NBC's "Meet the Press."

If this letter truly was a forgery created by the CIA under orders by the White House, why was it passed to a reporter on Dec 14, 2003, 9 full months after the start of the invasion? It cannot have been used to justify an policy which had already been carried out, & which had the blessing of a large majority of the US congress.

Suskind's premise just doesn't add up.

179 Kenneth  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:30:30pm

Here's a copy of Con Coughlin's Dec. 2003 report based upon this letter:

Leader, Telegraph, December 14, 2003

Terrorist behind September 11 strike was trained by Saddam
By Con Coughlin

Iraq's coalition government claims that it has uncovered documentary proof that Mohammed Atta, the al-Qaeda mastermind of the September 11 attacks against the US, was trained in Baghdad by Abu Nidal, the notorious Palestinian terrorist.

Details of Atta's visit to the Iraqi capital in the summer of 2001, just weeks before he launched the most devastating terrorist attack in US history, are contained in a top secret memo written to Saddam Hussein, the then Iraqi president, by Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti, the former head of the Iraqi Intelligence Service.

The handwritten memo, a copy of which has been obtained exclusively by the Telegraph, is dated July 1, 2001 and provides a short resume of a three-day "work programme" Atta had undertaken at Abu Nidal's base in Baghdad.

In the memo, Habbush reports that Atta "displayed extraordinary effort" and demonstrated his ability to lead the team that would be "responsible for attacking the targets that we have agreed to destroy".

The second part of the memo, which is headed "Niger Shipment", contains a report about an unspecified shipment - believed to be uranium - that it says has been transported to Iraq via Libya and Syria.

Although Iraqi officials refused to disclose how and where they had obtained the document, Dr Ayad Allawi, a member of Iraq's ruling seven-man Presidential Committee, said the document was genuine.

"We are uncovering evidence all the time of Saddam's involvement with al-Qaeda," he said. "But this is the most compelling piece of evidence that we have found so far. It shows that not only did Saddam have contacts with al-Qaeda, he had contact with those responsible for the September 11 attacks."

Although Atta is believed to have been resident in Florida in the summer of 2001, he is known to have used more than a dozen aliases, and intelligence experts believe he could easily have slipped out of the US to visit Iraq.

Abu Nidal, who was responsible for the failed assassination of the Israeli ambassador to London in 1982, was based in Baghdad for more than two decades.

180 ebed_melech  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 12:45:55pm

re: #166 Big Steve

The caption to your picture of Kaaba, 'The great Muslim traveler from Valencia, Ibn Jubayr (1145 - 1217) describes the emotion he felt on touching the stone; The stone, when one kisses it, has a softness and freshness which delights the mouth, so much so that he who places his lips upon it wishes never to remove them. It suffices, moreover, that the Prophet said that it is the Right Hand of God on Earth'.
I doubt he would use such words if he'd read some of this thread.

181 ShalomMets  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 1:55:54pm

re: #73 lawhawk

Well, the Palestinians consider it an affront to shave the mustaches. Birds of a feather perhaps.


Of course, palestinians consider everything to be an affront, so why care what they think? I'm just glad they found Rollie Fingers. I was wondering what happened to him.

182 Ezekiel2517  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 6:16:39pm

"The Carter"

The perfect 'stache to sport when you've failed to subdue the Persians and become a laughing stock.

183 paybacktime  Tue, Aug 5, 2008 11:19:07pm

re: #180 ebed_melech

The stone, when one kisses it, has a softness and freshness which delights the mouth, so much so that he who places his lips upon it wishes never to remove them.

Sounds like what happened to Flicks tongue.

[Link: www.exclaim.ca...]

I think this is what the chrome porthole at the Kabba was modeled after...

[Link: farm1.static.flickr.com...]

184 Jimmah  Wed, Aug 6, 2008 12:51:44am

No-one can rival George Galloway's moustache fetish, but these guys are clearly on the same page.

185 gutneshama  Thu, Aug 7, 2008 8:13:05am

re: #29 Amy

It's no secret that the Egyptians are (officially and unofficially) rabidly antisemitic. Note that, as is typical among Arabs and Muslims, it's all about "humiliation" and "subduing" others. The moustache is a proxy for an Arab's manhood; thus, when Hamas wanted to humiliate Fatah, it shaved off Fatah members' moustaches. Oh, my! I'll bet the Fatah men instantly became impotent.

I am royally sick and tired of this benighted, primitive society. It is a blight on the world.

I am sick of them too. I am sick of their arrogance, their hatred, their intolerance. When I visiting Cairo, I was shocked to see openly anti-semitic books in their shop windows and even tourist souvenir shops displayed them! Our tour guide was overtly anti-Israel and told me so, despite his knowing that I came from Israel. Of course, that didn't stop him from asking me for drugs and sex. Pathetic bunch of scum.


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