They're changing the name to the Gaza Mystery Spot.

A few friends of mine went to a party in Jerusalem that was primarily made up Anglophone reporters, people who work for NGOs and UN agencies. What amazed them was the pervasive sense of the people they met and spoke with that Israel was the greatest human rights violator in the world and that the dismantling of Israel would be a great step forward for global human rights.

Israel needs to simply expel all lefty journalists and NGO workers. It's like a hive of Robert Fisks over there.

the honor-shame culture of Gaza

More like the horror-sham culture of Gaza.

my bad = second

A few friends of mine went to a party in Jerusalem that was primarily made up Anglophone reporters, people who work for NGOs and UN agencies.

Right there you know it won't really be a "party" but a smugfest.

What amazed them was the pervasive sense of the people they met and spoke with that Israel was the greatest human rights violator in the world and that the dismantling of Israel would be a great step forward for global human rights.

Amazed? They must not read LGF.

At least Israel accords them the human rights to stand around criticising Israel. If they did the same to Hamas they'd win a free moustache shave and flight off the building's roof.

re: #1 zombie

They're changing the name to the Gaza Mystery Spot.

I used to spend my summers in Capitola as a kid and would see those yellow and black "Mystery Spot" bumper stickers everywhere.

Are they still around?

From the Melanie Philips article cited in the post:

fierce fighting in Gaza between Fatah and Hamas over the weekend, in which 11 people died and dozens more were wounded, resulted in 180 Fatah refugees fleeing from what they called a ‘war of genocide’ by Hamas against Fatah supporters. And where did they flee to? Why, to Israel, of course — which allowed them in and proceeded to treat 23 of them (some of whom were wounded by the Israeli army after they approached the crossing into Israel) in Israeli hospitals.

Oh sweet irony! Where is thy sting?

The Palestinians are like playground bullies battling it out by the jungle gym, and the Israelis are like the school counselor and the nurse, to whom the defeated bullies run for protection when they get punched in the nose.

It'd be a pitiable spectacle, if they weren't so dangerous, and didn't have the sympathy of the world's left-wing intelligentsia.

People safely enjoying a party in Jerusalem, thinking that Israel is the biggest danger.

I wonder why they didn't hold their little cocktail party in downtown Gaza? They could hold it in a place right next to their hotels or apartments, because they stay in Gaza, right? Surely they don't stay in Israel? Surely they don't feel safe in the "greatest human rights violator's" territory?

re: #7 karmic_inquisitor

I used to spend my summers in Capitola as a kid and would see those yellow and black "Mystery Spot" bumper stickers everywhere.

Are they still around?

Yup. Still commonplace. It was the word "Anomoly" in the article that inspired me to write that comment.

The honor -shame thing is interesting. I don't recall who it was, but I do recall some Leftie having a hissy fit about the allegation that honor killings are big in Islam. He contended that it nothing to do with islam, but was an Arab cultural thing. Ah, isn't that racist?

re: #2 zombie

Israel needs to simply expel all lefty journalists and NGO workers. It's like a hive of Robert Fisks over there.

They should all be sent to Gaza, since they think Ham-ass is better.

It seems like all of the liberals in the world are drinking the same Kool-Aid: communism is wonderful, diplomacy solves every problem, Israel is evil. I'm beginning to suspect that liberalism, much like Islam, winds into your brain like a parasitic worm and removes an individuals ability to use logic and reasoning.

"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed." A great liar said that, and in Gaza they practice it as a way of life.

re: #8 zombie

But notice the complete lack of press coverage.

Were such a fight erupting among Sunni and Shia factions in the Iraqi government, it would be everywhere.

How long has the US been putting a government together in Iraq? And how long has the "international community" been doing it in and around the Palestinian territories?

And people think that there was a "soft power" solution to Iraq.

srael was the greatest human rights violator in the world and that the dismantling of Israel would be a great step forward for global human rights.

This is quite true, for the simple reason that "human rights" do not exist. There is personal liberty, protected by the rule of law, or there is not. "Human rights" are a false construct which is put forward by people who try to substitute group rights, granted by government whim, for the ideal of personal liberty.

For this reason, Israel is indeed "the greatest human rights violator in the world," for it protects individual liberty under law in a region where individual liberty under law does not otherwise exist. Because individual liberty under law is diametrically opposed to the false construct of "human rights," Israel's commitment to individual liberty does indeed violate "human rights" most egregiously.

By the same token, the elimination of Israel would be a great step forward for "human rights"--and a great step backwards for the cause of individual liberty and the rule of law.

re: #8 zombie

Why, to Israel, of course — which allowed them in and proceeded to treat 23 of them

Oh, but just this morning I heard that Amnesty (or someone of that ilk) is denouncing Israel for "pressuring" sick Gazan Palis to be informants as a condition to letting them go to Israeli hospitals.

Why the Israelis are under any moral obligation to let Gazans into their hospitals in the first place was not explained.

My wife was at a sort of spiritual healing (somewhat more mainstream, not hippy types). I went to dinner with the group. Fortunately, there was only a little mention of politics, with one person who works at the UN Secretary General's office. She obviously didn't like Sarkozy or Bolton. There must be a brain wasting disease in that building.

Take Israel out of the Middle East and the region becomes nothing but Hama rules ...

The first time I saw a reference to the Hama Rule was in a scene in a Jerry Pournelle novel where the chief bad guy and his nephew was interviewing a technoninja for a job.

The Hama Rule was that there are no rules. No restriction on who may be killed, including traditional noncombatants such as women and children, or in what quantity.

re: #9 Silhouette

People safely enjoying a party in Jerusalem, thinking that Israel is the biggest danger.

I wonder why they didn't hold their little cocktail party in downtown Gaza? They could hold it in a place right next to their hotels or apartments, because they stay in Gaza, right? Surely they don't stay in Israel? Surely they don't feel safe in the "greatest human rights violator's" territory?

* * *
Hush your mouth. Their second home is Busboys & Poets in Washington, DC! You know, in that other horrible country, USA.

/sarcasm of course.

Love it or Leave it.

re: #19 The Other Les

The first time I saw a reference to the Hama Rule was in a scene in a Jerry Pournelle novel where the chief bad guy and his nephew was interviewing a technoninja for a job.

The Hama Rule was that there are no rules. No restriction on who may be killed, including traditional noncombatants such as women and children, or in what quantity.

"Got Tell the Spartans" right? Amazing how the bad guys in RL are allowed to get away with anything these days. As long as they whine long and loud.

*spit*

Best pull quote so far:

So let’s get our head round this: Palestinians committed to the destruction of Israel fled from other Palestinians committed to the destruction of Israel into Israel, which is providing them with sanctuary and medical treatment, while the president of their putative state who bases his claim against Israel on its alleged refusal to admit Palestinian ‘refugees’ refused to allow actual Palestinian refugees fleeing Palestinian violence access to that same putative state, while Israel agonises over whether to grant them permanent asylum. Surreal, or what?

re: #21 BlueCanuck

Yes.

I should dig it out of storage.

The arrogance is what is breathtaking. They would not dare, would not even think, of acting that way towards the host nation if they were in any countries other than Israel or the United States. They wouldn't even act that way in Europe if they were not a citizen of the country they were in. Israel should haul each one in and point out that they have a visa and that privilege can be revoked. Allow a citizen to bring a libel suit under Israeli law. Remind people subtly that the arm of Israeli justice has a very long reach.

re: #11 opnion

The honor -shame thing is interesting. I don't recall who it was, but I do recall some Leftie having a hissy fit about the allegation that honor killings are big in Islam. He contended that it nothing to do with islam, but was an Arab cultural thing. Ah, isn't that racist?

Oh no, it's not. Making fun of it is. Condemning those that practice it is. Even saying it is wrong is. Because, as we all know, you must not disparage someone's cultural practices.

No country in the world shows greater respect for human rights, and reluctance to defend self, than Israel.

Is there any other country in the world that would tolerate daily rocket attacks/terrorism and not defend itself as it could and should?

"The time has come," the Walrus said,
"To talk of many things:
Of shoes—and ships—and sealing-wax—
Of cabbages—and kings—
And why the sea is boiling hot—
And whether pigs have wings."

re: #19 The Other Les

The first time I saw a reference to the Hama Rule was in a scene in a Jerry Pournelle novel where the chief bad guy and his nephew was interviewing a technoninja for a job.

The Hama Rule was that there are no rules. No restriction on who may be killed, including traditional noncombatants such as women and children, or in what quantity.

I'm reasonably certain that it was Thomas Friedman who coined the term "Hama Rules," way before 2001.

I'm actually not crazy about the line of saying "the problem with the Gazans is that they have an honor/shame culture". Nothing wrong with that; our own culture could use an extra helping of each. It's WHAT gives them honor (murdering Jews), and shame (one's sister smiling at a handsome boy), that's the problem.

re: #24 lifeofthemind

The arrogance is what is breathtaking. They would not dare, would not even think, of acting that way towards the host nation if they were in any countries other than Israel or the United States. They wouldn't even act that way in Europe if they were not a citizen of the country they were in. Israel should haul each one in and point out that they have a visa and that privilege can be revoked. Allow a citizen to bring a libel suit under Israeli law. Remind people subtly that the arm of Israeli justice has a very long reach.

Whenever liberals are "Speaking Truth to Power", Whether it is Hollywood types, journalists or New York dinner party types etc. it is always somewhere that they are actually in no real danger.
They love to back slap each other over their "courage"
In fact they are in love with the courageous concept, not the practice.

re: #26 Behead Me Bob

No country in the world shows greater respect for human rights, and reluctance to defend self, than Israel.

Is there any other country in the world that would tolerate daily rocket attacks/terrorism and not defend itself as it could and should?

You are right.

I thought that the US was extreme in its concern for life when, instead of bombing convoys of weapons and supplies for the enemy like anyone else would, they would send in troops to stop the trucks, remove the drivers to a safe distance, and then blow up the convoys. The extra risk to US life for no other purpose that saving the lives of the enemy or enemy supporters was amazing. But Israel has them beat. Time and again they risk their own lives out of concern for the lives of the enemy. They treat the enemy in their hospitals. They send food, clothing, supplies, and utilities to the enemy. And without a doubt, they care more for the children of the enemy than the enemy does itself.

Oh, Al Gore has a house boat.

[Link: dirtyharrysplace.com...]

What amazed them was the pervasive sense of the people they met and spoke with that Israel was the greatest human rights violator in the world and that the dismantling of Israel would be a great step forward for global human rights.

Whenever I see these 180 degree twists I'm pretty sure that the father of lies is operating,

re: #29 Occasional Reader

AMEN.

re: #11 opnion

The honor -shame thing is interesting. I don't recall who it was, but I do recall some Leftie having a hissy fit about the allegation that honor killings are big in Islam. He contended that it nothing to do with islam, but was an Arab cultural thing. Ah, isn't that racist?

Depends upon what Islam is. It is at the core an amalgam of half understood religious information gleaned from jews and christians that Muhammad met but did not understand, he could not do research beyond hearsay and an occasional question to a lay person because he was illiterate, mixed with his own psycho sexual projections. The bulk of Islam as a code of conduct or way of life is simply a description of the culture, mores and prejudices of 7th century bedouin from the lower arabian peninsula.

re: #30 opnion

Whenever liberals are "Speaking Truth to Power", Whether it is Hollywood types, journalists or New York dinner party types etc. it is always somewhere that they are actually in no real danger.
They love to back slap each other over their "courage"
In fact they are in love with the courageous concept, not the practice.

It is a given that TV comedians kick people when they are down not when they can retaliate.

OT: McCain almost got as much press as Obama last week.

Spears and Hilton Raise McCain Coverage Even With Obama

For the first time since this general election campaign began in early June, Republican John McCain attracted virtually as much media attention as his Democratic rival last week.

Barack Obama was a significant or dominant factor in 81% of the campaign stories compared with 78% for McCain, according to PEJ's Campaign Coverage Index for July 28-Aug. 3. That was a high water mark for McCain in the general election season (his previous best was 62% from June 30-July 6) . And the virtual dead heat in the race for exposure between the two candidates also marked the first time his weekly coverage had even been within 10 percentage points of Obama's total. Indeed, in the eight weeks since early June when the general election contest began, 79% of the stories have significantly featured Obama, compared with 55% for his Republican rival.

Let's be clear - the coverage of McCain, though more frequent, has been largely negative. Just the same, the PR adage "any press is good press" is once again validated.

re: #7 karmic_inquisitor

Yes they are, and the mystery spot is too.

Mystery Spot

These people are all just a bunch of Jew Hating scumbags hiding behind their worthless NGO's.

Sorta OT:
My buddy was cleaning out the attic of his deceased mother and discovered a newspaper published in Maine with a November 1945 date. On the front page there was a story about riots in Tel Aviv, Palestine. Brittish troops were parachuted in to quell the riots. IIRC, Israel didn't exist till 1948. So I guess this was one time when it wasn't the Joos fault huh?

re: #37 karmic_inquisitor

OT: McCain almost got as much press as Obama last week.

Spears and Hilton Raise McCain Coverage Even With Obama

Let's be clear - the coverage of McCain, though more frequent, has been largely negative. Just the same, the PR adage "any press is good press" is once again validated.

Right, but the difference in coverage has not had the desired effect.
Barry does Europe, with fawning media coverage did not play well back home.
McCains mocking ads (Celeb & The One) while frowned on by the MSM, worked well. The ads spoke clearly to Obamas hubris & messianic complex.

re: #35 lifeofthemind

half understood religious information gleaned from jews and christians that Muhammad met but did not understand

Early Christian: Our Lord said, 'suffer the little children to come unto me.'

Mo: "Okay, so basically you're saying 'thumbs-up' on marrying nine year-olds... got it. Great idea!"

Christian: Er, no, you're missing the...

Mo: "Gotta run! Thanks for the info!"

re: #41 opnion

Agree.

re: #40 GeeWiz

Sorta OT:
My buddy was cleaning out the attic of his deceased mother and discovered a newspaper published in Maine with a November 1945 date. On the front page there was a story about riots in Tel Aviv, Palestine. Brittish troops were parachuted in to quell the riots. IIRC, Israel didn't exist till 1948. So I guess this was one time when it wasn't the Joos fault huh?

There were Jews in the British Mandate of Palestine who were working their butts off to establish the State of Israel, so the antisemitic bozoids would have to blame it on the Joooooos.

re: #42 Occasional Reader

Groan!

Signing of GRP-MILF agreement is 'impeachable offense'

Drilon, a former justice secretary and executive secretary, said the proposed GRP-MILF agreement clearly violates the 1987 Constitution because it grants the so-called Bangsamoro Juridical Entity a status of belligerency, which is a step closer to granting it international recognition as a separate and independent state.

"It will reportedly authorize the BJE to sign trade pacts, friendship treaties and other international agreements with foreign countries and send representatives to ASEAN and the United Nations,” he said

Moreover, Drilon said that the Terms of Reference cites the UN Charter, the UN Universal Declaration on Human Rights, International Humanitarian Law (IHL), which only sovereign states can be party to.

He explained that the proposed agreement unconstitutionally surrenders Philippine government authority over exploitation of natural resources, such as oil exploration, as the Bangsamoro territory no longer forms part of the national public domain.

"You cannot divide sovereignty, which the MOA provides for when it allows BJE to exercise shared authority and responsibility with the Philippine government over the Bangsamoro homeland," he pointed out.

re: #13 shibumi

It seems like all of the liberals in the world are drinking the same Kool-Aid: communism is wonderful, diplomacy solves every problem, Israel is evil.

The wheels on the bus go round and round,
round and round,
round and round.
The wheels on the bus......

The NGOs are symbiotic affiliates of the media-industrial complex.

They feed the media sound-bite and video friendly stories and, in return, the media bring the propaganda up to professional standards and provide free advertising.

More importantly, the NGOs' political influence is a primary vector for injecting media values and objectives into governmental processes. They really should be called QGOs, quasi-governmental organizations.

re: #44 The Other Les

Oh well, I tried. lol I'm not up on my world history since I studied it way back in history (45 years ago). Damn how time files!

Obama heckled: Yahoo pic

A heckler on the press riser puts his hand over his heart as he loudly says the Pledge of Allegiance, interrupting Democratic presidential candidate Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., during his speech at a town hall-style meeting at Baldwin-Wallace College in Berea, Ohio, Tuesday, Aug. 5, 2008.

Kinda funny but leave the disruptive protests to the LLL. It always looks bad.

This piece would do well in Alan Dershowitz's sequel to 'The Case for Israel.'

Again, it's enlightened, free-thinking and good people vs. desert savages. In a rational world, Israel would be globally celebrated for its restraint and compassion. In this world, Israel is demonized. Go figure.

.....people who work for NGOs and UN agencies...and the State Dept...

re: #4 usmc1968

my bad = second

Good to see you online!

re: #38 Ojoe

Yes they are, and the mystery spot is too.

Mystery Spot

Next time I am up there I will have to visit it. Never did when I lived in the area. Same goes for Winchester Mystery House.

re: #51 JSK1121

It's the whole "up is down and down is up" thingy if you're on the wrong side of the political/religious agenda of the MSM.

Speaking of NGO's, Honest Reorting and NGO Watch have this today:

Many media outlets, including the BBC, Washington Post, Daily Telegraph, Guardian, Independent and AFP, have published allegations made by the NGO Physicians for Human Rights-Israel (PHR-I) that Israeli security services have pressured Palestinians seeking medical treatment outside of Gaza to become informants in violation of international law.

NGO Monitor's Gerald Steinberg takes up the issue:

Once again, unproven accusations against Israel and stripped of context made by obscure NGOs (the BBC, like other news groups, apparently did not know that PHR-I is an independent organization, and not part of the international PHR framework) were placed at the top of the news ladder. This is the power of the "halo effect", which protects NGOs that claim lofty goals (particularly if they condemn Israel) from any independent verification by journalists, diplomats and often, and academic researchers.

There are numerous problems with this report that should have given the BBC and other journalists pause, beginning with the questions of credibility and context. Human rights claims are a central part of the Arab-Israeli conflict, and have accompanied Palestinian terrorism and Israeli responses for many years....

... the "evidence" is entirely based on unverifiable claims, primarily from 11 interviewees from Gaza who allegedly asked Israel for permission to cross from the territory controlled by Hamas for medical care. Some of these Palestinians may have genuine medical needs, but others may be inventing stories that sell well in an environment that is inherently hostile to Israel.

PHR-I has issued press releases declaring a Palestinian to be dead after Israel refused to allow him to cross the border, but he turned out to be alive. And in NGO reports on Palestinian suffering, Gazans who claimed to have been denied permission to study at universities in the United States were exposed as imposters. Unless the evidence can be checked or independently verified, it should be treated with the same skepticism used by professional journalists regarding other self-serving stories.

In addition, neither the BBC nor most of the other media reports on this story stated that PHR-I is a radical political organization that uses medical and other human rights claims to promote this agenda. As detailed NGO Monitor analyses show, PHR-I, officials, who are funded by misguided European governments, frequently use the rhetoric of demonization, addressing conferences that refer to Israel as a "racist" and "apartheid" state.

Read the full article on NGO Monitor's blog. Please use this information and send your considered comments where appropriate to those media outlets that have covered this story:
[Link: blog.ngo-monitor.org...]

re: #2 zombie

Israel needs to simply expel all lefty journalists and NGO workers. It's like a hive of Robert Fisks over there.

I'm not sure expulsion of everyone with a certain bent is the right solution, but you're right. I've got a theory that in the region a reporter or -- especially -- NGO worker's hatred for Israel is proportional to his physical closeness to its border.

Re:#50 Hot Air has video
Obama played it off with class.

re: #50 Killgore Trout

Obama heckled: Yahoo pic

Kinda funny but leave the disruptive protests to the LLL. It always looks bad.

Who the heck is that guy?

Speaking of media lefties, back when was an editor, I discussed the "illusion of distinction" (journalist as rebel) meme with a noted mass-com professor.

He told me that in order to take full advantage of this, one had to fall somewhere to the left of the intended audience. Here in West Texas, where a large part of the population falls to the right of Richard the Lionheart, this was relatively simple.
Think about what it would take, though, in a place like New York or Los Angeles, let alone Europe.

re: #57 Cognito

I'm not sure expulsion of everyone with a certain bent is the right solution, but you're right. I've got a theory that in the region a reporter or -- especially -- NGO worker's hatred for Israel is proportional to his physical closeness to its border.

Directly or inversely proportional to physical proximity to Israel's border?

And does this depend upon which side of that border the person is on?

You are not clear here.

re: #58 Killgore Trout

Re:#50 Hot Air has video
Obama played it off with class.

"I thought we already did the Pledge"... eh?

Its not an anomaly when it happens all the time.

re: #17 Occasional Reader

Oh, but just this morning I heard that Amnesty (or someone of that ilk) is denouncing Israel for "pressuring" sick Gazan Palis to be informants as a condition to letting them go to Israeli hospitals.

Why the Israelis are under any moral obligation to let Gazans into their hospitals in the first place was not explained.

"O-R" -

"...DING, DING, DING, DING, DING! - We Have a WINNAH! There is absolutely NO OBLIGATION to treat Gaza Residents as things stand now. There is also NO OBLIGATION to provide electricity, water, food, medicines or petroleum. The sooner Israel totally cuts off goods and services in GAZA, the better. Quassam rockets are made in workshops using Israeli generated electricity. Is thre something wrong with this picture? Discussion?

-S-

re: #54 karmic_inquisitor

I've been to the Mystery Spot near St. Ignace in Michigan's UP. The only mystery is why I let my kids talk me into going there.

re: #61 buzzsawmonkey

Directly or inversely proportional to physical proximity to Israel's border?

And does this depend upon which side of that border the person is on?

You are not clear here.

Directly proportional, which should've been pretty clear, as I didn't distinguish. And without its borders, as clarified by "in the region." (All right, all right, could have been clearer....)

Within its borders is a sort of an assortment, much like Israel itself.

re: #57 Cognito

I'm not sure expulsion of everyone with a certain bent is the right solution, but you're right. I've got a theory that in the region a reporter or -- especially -- NGO worker's hatred for Israel is proportional to his physical closeness to its border.

Perhaps they should expel everyone who is a proven liar and genocide-tool. If that is congruent with "lefty journalists and NGO workers," so be it.

re: #59 Cognito

Just some idiot who got ahold of a press pass, I guess.

re: #62 Occasional Reader

I think he was just being patronizing.

re: #65 Mich-again

The Santa Cruz Mystery Spot must be better, I got a bang out of it & my kids too.

re: #64 Dr. Shalit

"O-R" -

"...DING, DING, DING, DING, DING! - We Have a WINNAH! There is absolutely NO OBLIGATION to treat Gaza Residents as things stand now. There is also NO OBLIGATION to provide electricity, water, food, medicines or petroleum. The sooner Israel totally cuts off goods and services in GAZA, the better. Quassam rockets are made in workshops using Israeli generated electricity. Is thre something wrong with this picture? Discussion?

-S-

I agree much of that, but personally I think medicine is a different matter. It's easy sound blustery on a blog, but it takes a hard heart to turn away a family medical treatment. In Israel or elsewhere.

re: #69 Killgore Trout

I think he was just being patronizing.

Obama? Patronizing? Naaaaah!

re: #68 Killgore Trout

Just some idiot who got ahold of a press pass, I guess.

Iirc, there is some fringe-nut rightist group that makes a practice of securing press credentials for its activists. Can't remember the details though.

re: #68 Killgore Trout

Just some idiot who got ahold of a press pass, I guess.

And a big ol' honking Canon.

re: #71 Cognito

I agree much of that, but personally I think medicine is a different matter. It's easy sound blustery on a blog, but it takes a hard heart to turn away a family medical treatment. In Israel or elsewhere.

"Cog" -

I will go this far - if they can make it on their OWN to the border, OK. If not - not.

-S-

Btw, I got out of the editing business because I was doing fairly well freelancing, I was still teaching part-time, my consulting business was starting up, and (last but not least) my publisher was indicted and tossed in jail for fraud.

re: #40 GeeWiz

BTW, on the front page in the weather box for today was a single line that stated, "Still Cold". LOL!

re: #76 Shiplord Kirel

Btw, I got out of the editing business because I was doing fairly well freelancing, I was still teaching part-time, my consulting business was starting up, and (last but not least) my publisher was indicted and tossed in jail for fraud.

Hahaha. An indictment can make you reevaluate things.

What sort of consulting do you do, if you don't mind?

Israel has been teaching people how to treat them. They get violence and rockets, they give compassion. Net result, they get more violence and rockets. If someone wishes not to be treated like a doormat, don't be one.

re: #29 Occasional Reader

I'm actually not crazy about the line of saying "the problem with the Gazans is that they have an honor/shame culture". Nothing wrong with that; our own culture could use an extra helping of each. It's WHAT gives them honor (murdering Jews), and shame (one's sister smiling at a handsome boy), that's the problem.

The alleged problem is that this culture would override the secular government. However, Islam recognizes no secular government, and (the Arabs, at least) rationalize the worst of their behaviors, with Islam. Untangle that, to determine just who or what is at fault.

re: #4 usmc1968

Hey guy. Hope you're doing well.

re: #40 GeeWiz

Sorta OT:
My buddy was cleaning out the attic of his deceased mother and discovered a newspaper published in Maine with a November 1945 date. On the front page there was a story about riots in Tel Aviv, Palestine. Brittish troops were parachuted in to quell the riots. IIRC, Israel didn't exist till 1948. So I guess this was one time when it wasn't the Joos fault huh?

Kind of cuts both ways, that one.

Some have argued (incorrectly) that there was no such place as Tel-Aviv until after 1948, or that there was no "Palestine," or even that there were no people around in the desert.

On the other hand, riots-and-parachutes doesn't exactly sound idyllic.

re: #82 Cognito

Kind of cuts both ways, that one.

Some have argued (incorrectly) that there was no such place as Tel-Aviv until after 1948, or that there was no "Palestine," or even that there were no people around in the desert.

On the other hand, riots-and-parachutes doesn't exactly sound idyllic.

The statement that there was no such place as Tel Aviv until after 1948 is demonstrably false.

There was a "Palestine" prior to 1948, but it was a British Mandate territory. There was no "Palestine" as an independent nation, ever.

"No people around in the desert" is not a statement that makes any sense.

re: #83 buzzsawmonkey

The statement that there was no such place as Tel Aviv until after 1948 is demonstrably false.

There was a "Palestine" prior to 1948, but it was a British Mandate territory. There was no "Palestine" as an independent nation, ever.

"No people around in the desert" is not a statement that makes any sense.

Yep, yep, and yep.

re: #7 karmic_inquisitor

I used to spend my summers in Capitola as a kid and would see those yellow and black "Mystery Spot" bumper stickers everywhere.

Are they still around?

It's as mysterious as ever.

re: #48 Shiplord Kirel

the NGOs' political influence is a primary vector for injecting media values and objectives into governmental processes. They really should be called QGOs, quasi-governmental organizations.

They should really be called subversives and traitors.

re: #82 Cognito

Kind of cuts both ways, that one.

Some have argued (incorrectly) that there was no such place as Tel-Aviv until after 1948, or that there was no "Palestine," or even that there were no people around in the desert.

On the other hand, riots-and-parachutes doesn't exactly sound idyllic.

The Hamastanis claimed that Tel Aviv was originally called 'Tel al-Rabi', an arab town that was overtaken by the menacing Zionists (false).

Mark Twain claimed that in the late 1800s, there was nary a soul in the Palestine mandate, an observation he had made while over there on a trip.

Who would I believe? Anybody who created a literary character named 'N-word Jim' has infinitely more credibility than a group whose major cultural achievement was 'Farfur.'

Just sayin'

re: #86 ContraJihadi

They should really be called subversives and traitors.

I've got some understanding of why the media tends to lean left, but the NGO thing is a puzzle to me.

re: #4 usmc1968

Sir,
You're getting 200 push ups from me today just on GP that you're online and posting.
Great to see you again USMC1968.

re: #82 Cognito

Yep, they are scum. They Pali nuts and their enablers are evil or too stupid and must be destroyed.

{usmc1968}

MWAH!

It's so good to see you!

the people they met and spoke with that Israel was the greatest human rights violator in the world and that the dismantling of Israel would be a great step forward for global human rights

That's what 60 years of UN "guidance" has produced: a perpetual victim class whose horrors and murderous deeds are overlooked.
May they all rot.

re: #87 JSK1121

Mark Twain claimed that in the late 1800s, there was nary a soul in the Palestine mandate, an observation he had made while over there on a trip.

There was no "Palestine mandate" in the 19th century. The region known as "Palestine" was then part of the Ottoman Empire, and remained part of that empire until it was dismantled after WWI.

The British Mandate to administer the area of the former Ottoman Empire known as "Palestine," which included present-day Israel, Gaza, the West Bank, and what is now known as Jordan, was created by the League of Nations in the 1920s.

re: #78 Cognito

Hahaha. An indictment can make you reevaluate things.

What sort of consulting do you do, if you don't mind?

Geophysical survey. I evaluate the geological aspects of proposed construction projects, especially pipelines. This was what sent me to Iraq a couple of years ago. In that case, it was not new construction but the repair and modernization of existing facilities. Many of the facilities in Iraq date from British times and are poorly sited and designed in terms of the local hazards, chiefly flash-flooding and quick-onset erosion. Others, built by Soviet engineers during the Cold War, are disastrously ill-designed and shoddily built. There is a lot of work to do even without saboteurs and terrorists around.

re: #90 LEGION

Yep, they are scum. They Pali nuts and their enablers are evil or too stupid and [ahem].

Er... you're sort of advocating the destruction of a whole people, there. It's not a great notion.

re: #95 Cognito

Er... you're sort of advocating the destruction of a whole people, there. It's not a great notion.

Nope, just the murderous scum.

re: #4 usmc1968

re: #89 Confuzed

30 from me (at one time) but I'm an old guy.

re: #94 Shiplord Kirel

Hey, that's really interesting. Especially neat to hear a comparison of British and Soviet administration.

Obama: GOP Detractors ‘Take Pride in Being Ignorant’

The Illinois senator was responding in part to criticism from Republicans who mocked him for suggesting last week that Americans could save on energy costs and gas by properly inflating their tires. McCain surrogates passed out tire gauges that say “Obama’s Energy Plan,” and McCain said last week the “only thing” Obama has proposed with regard to energy is to inflate tires.

“This is the kind of thing they do. I don’t understand it,” Obama said at a town hall meeting in Berea, Ohio, Tuesday. “Two points: One, they know they are lying about what my energy plan is, but the other thing is they are making fun of a step that every expert says would absolutely reduce our oil consumption by 3 to 4 percent.

“It’s like these guys take pride in being ignorant,” he said.

/arrogantly making friends and influencing people

re: #88 Cognito

I've got some understanding of why the media tends to lean left, but the NGO thing is a puzzle to me.

If I were a Randian, I would say it's the nature of an altruist; but I must confess that I really don't know. Perhaps the trans-nationalism has something to do with it.

re: #93 buzzsawmonkey

There was no "Palestine mandate" in the 19th century. The region known as "Palestine" was then part of the Ottoman Empire, and remained part of that empire until it was dismantled after WWI.

The British Mandate to administer the area of the former Ottoman Empire known as "Palestine," which included present-day Israel, Gaza, the West Bank, and what is now known as Jordan, was created by the League of Nations in the 1920s.

Jesus, have I fallen, subconsciously, for the Pallywood Propaganda Machine? Because they're claiming that Palestine is thousands of years old. Dammit!

OT Any one remember Jeff Siddiqui? Well, he's now been selected as a Democratic elector should the junior from Senator from Illinois win Washington State

Jeff Siddiqui, a Pakistani immigrant who lives in Lynnwood, 20 miles north of Seattle, is one of 11 people selected by the Democratic Party, the Seattle Post-Intelligencer reports.

re: #99 Killian Bundy

As it is a free country we must put up with some under-inflated tires.

It is Obama who does not get it, nor value the main thing.

Israelis are (1) representatives of Western culture living in a modern, productive society, and (2) Joooos. So what else do you need to know?

re: #101 JSK1121

Jesus, have I fallen, subconsciously, for the Pallywood Propaganda Machine? Because they're claiming that Palestine is thousands of years old. Dammit!

You're conflating a few things, I think. "Palestine" is a very old name; the British mandate was a relatively short-term thing; and there is no independent nation called "Palestine."

re: #82 Cognito

Some have argued (incorrectly) that there was no such place as Tel-Aviv until after 1948, or that there was no "Palestine," or even that there were no people around in the desert.

On the other hand, riots-and-parachutes doesn't exactly sound idyllic

.

I found the article interesting, but I only read the first paragraph since it was in a print size I could read without glasses. The remaining print was too small for me to read without them. I need to keep my reading glasses with me alll the time! The amount of articles/information they fit on the front page, using very, very small print, was amazing.

Like you, I found it interesting that riots were occurring there before the state of Israel existed. It leads me to believe that the problem resides with the palestinians themselves being an irritant in the arab world. JMHO. I could be wrong here, just ask my ex.

everyone should realize when Mr, Obama makes a suggestion , it is really a demand. we are just too "ignorant" to get it.

re: #94 Shiplord Kirel

We all depend on design and engineering, it is strange to me that these disciplines and those that practice them are very ignored and not appreciated.

re: #101 JSK1121

Jesus, have I fallen, subconsciously, for the Pallywood Propaganda Machine? Because they're claiming that Palestine is thousands of years old. Dammit!

The area in general was controlled by Israel more than 2000 years ago.
Since then area has been a province of other empires.
Israel fell to Rome.
Rome devolved into the Holy Roman Empire, the Eastern parts turned into the Byzantine Empire, then the Ottoman. (Forgive me if I left out a stage working off memory.

The Romans used the name Palestine in part to expunge the names of Judea and Israel. It's always been an administrative district of an Empire.

The last locally sovereign nation on that land was ancient Israel.

re: #54 karmic_inquisitor

Next time I am up there I will have to visit it. Never did when I lived in the area. Same goes for Winchester Mystery House.

There was a broken water sprinkler on Hwy 17 near there and we all called it the Winchester Mystery Puddle.

Ghad-Quadd-Ga-Kaddaf-- Libya's leader is such an odd duck. One minute he's raving nonsensically and the next he's crystal clear, lucid, and speaking perfect sense. How about his warning to Iran?

re: #59 Cognito

Who the heck is that guy?

He looks mainstream to me.

re: #105 Cognito

You're conflating a few things, I think. "Palestine" is a very old name; the British mandate was a relatively short-term thing; and there is no independent nation called "Palestine."

Oh, I know that. I guess I was referring to what later became the Palestine Mandate.

I seem to remember Ben-Hur portraying the glorious nation of Palestine in its eternal struggle against Italians, Christians, Jews and manual rowing of warships. Am I mistaken yet again?

re: #101 JSK1121

Jesus, have I fallen, subconsciously, for the Pallywood Propaganda Machine? Because they're claiming that Palestine is thousands of years old. Dammit!

The name "Palestine," which is derived from the name "Philistine," was imposed on Judea by the Romans after the defeat of Bar Kochba, the leader of the Second Jewish Revolt.

When the Romans defeated the Jews in the First Revolt--the war in which the Temple was destroyed, and which victory the Arch of Titus was built in Rome to commemorate--they struck coins which read, "Judea Capta," i.e., "Judea is conquered."

When the Jews revolted a second time, about 60 years later, the Romans adopted a scorched-earth policy to defeat the insurgents. Anything that moved was killed; anything that could be eaten was eaten, and everything else destroyed. That devastation was largely responsible for the derelict condition of the land until the influx of Jews beginning in the 1880s.

The Romans killed or enslaved most of the population. Judea was renamed "Palestine" as part of this act of ethnic cleansing; Jerusalem was renamed "Aeolia Capitolina," and Jews were forbidden to enter it on pain of death.

Some Jews did still remain in the land even under these persecutions; the Jewish community in Hebron, for instance, remained--until Arab riots drove out the Jewish population in the 1920s.

In any event, the area now known as "Israel," which was Judea in Roman times until it was renamed after the Second Revolt, was part of the Roman Empire until it became part of the Byzantine Empire, then part of the various Islamic empires. The only time Israel/Judea was an independent nation was under the Jews--except for the brief period when it was part of the Crusader Kingdom.

re: #99 Killian Bundy

Obama: GOP Detractors ‘Take Pride in Being Ignorant’
/arrogantly making friends and influencing people

Works for me!

(not sure who you are saying is arrogant, what works for me is McCain making the statement)

re: #87 JSK1121
Haifa, heron, Jerusalem all had people in fact Jerusalem had a majority of Jew from the middle of the 19th century. it was all a back water part of the dieing ottoman empire. an empire that died in blood and fire note the Armenian genocide.

the head of the Bahia' faith was imprisoned in Haifa and died there.

it was never thought of as a sept country until the Jews got one there. remember the PLO was created in 1964 before the so called occupation.

and then the worst Arab pogrom was in Hevron in 1929 before there ever was a Israel. the Jewish community in Hevron was there from the Spanish expulsion and were invited to live there by the Ottoman Sultan so they had more legal rights to be there than the Arabs who came latter.

re: #113 JSK1121

Manually rowed warship

hevron sorry spell check turned it into heron and i did not catch it for once i don't blame my crapy spelling on me but a machine.

YEAH RIGHT.

re: #117 Ojoe

Manually rowed warship

Listen up galley slave! I've good news and bad news.
First the good news; triple rations at lunch today!
*cheers*
Now for the bad; after lunch the captain wants to go water skiiing.

re: #83 buzzsawmonkey

Sheesh, I never meant to start a firestorm. I only reported what a Maine newspaper reported in November of 1945. The article was dated 11/?/1945 from Tel-Aviv, Palestine. The question mark represents my lack of memory of the exact date. It was the tag line that caught my eye and interest. I will see if I can obtain the paper again and get the specifics. Keep in mind that it was the paper who granted Palestine the status of a state.

the dismantling of Israel would be a great step forward for global human rights.

Too bad these elites don't listen to the people:

But check the hidden transcript and you find out some very different sentiments. 70%, according to some estimates, would prefer to have the Israelis return.

re: #114 buzzsawmonkey

jeez buzz...
Where do you read that stuff? I've been married to a jewish girl since we were 21.. I don't know this stuff you speak of..I hear stories of all sorts all the time..Our families have grown close...but
I'm really disappointed..
I don't understand the hate of jews or blacks or browns or whatever..
If my wife was blue.. I would still love her.. ( well understand i'm just making a point) If my wife was black and i fell in love with her..i would still love her with all my heart..
Why do people hate jews? Blacks, brown people?
It's so stupid and i thought we were beyond this.. I guess not..
Kind regards buzz and keep putting it out there..

no time to read all posts but am I the only one that read

"gaza animals"

freudian slide into first.

re: #117 Ojoe

Manually rowed warship

That is the Greek naval vessel Olympias, an exacting replica built between 1985 and 1987. It has been used as a training ship and in various media events (the 2004 Olympics, movies, etc.) and in a research project dealing with ancient naval tactics. Since 2004, it has been an exhibit at the Naval museum.

re: #122 HoosierHoops

I'm not quite sure what you're asking here. Where does the history come from? It's out there; I can't tell you where I read all this stuff, because I've been reading history of one sort or another for years. A pop history of the Jews which is not bad (though a little colloquial for my taste) is Max Dimont's "Jews, God and History," which was published around the time of the six-day war. It may be hard to find; Chaim Potok's "Wanderings" is more recent, and Potok is a better writer--most of the time, anyway.

re: #79 Wilderstad

Israel has been teaching people how to treat them. They get violence and rockets, they give compassion. Net result, they get more violence and rockets. If someone wishes not to be treated like a doormat, don't be one.

That's easy to say but, that is not who Israelis are. They are a compassionate, joyful group of people who honor life. If it means they get killed, so be it. That is what makes them so very special.

re: #120 GeeWiz

I wasn't trying to build a firestorm of any sort; most of what I've posted is old news to the folks here, but it bears repeating every now and then.

Does anyone have a poll showing where the troops stand on the election? I remember one from about three weeks ago, but can't find it. Hope one of you lizards can help me out here!

:)

re: #124 Shiplord Kirel

always learning something on LGF. this was interesting.

now were is helen of troy.

Axis of Evil: "Anglophone reporters, people who work for NGOs and UN agencies"

As regards the kind of swine you find working for NGOs, the recent arrest of the woman described as the FARC commander in Europe provides a fine example. She worked for a OSPAAAL, a Cold War-era Communist Front that outlived the Cold War. For starters see:

[Link: osint.internet-haganah.com...]
and
[Link: osint.internet-haganah.com...]
and also
[Link: www.elmundo.es...]

re: #116 yochanan

remember the PLO was created in 1964 before the so called occupation.

The important things to remember about the formation of the PLO in 1964 are:

a) It was, as you say, formed before there was any "occupation" of Gaza and the West Bank.

b) It was formed with a pronounced Marxist tinge to its rhetoric; it was backed by the Soviet Union, and used the language of "liberation movements" then popular.

c) 1964 was the date of the major victory of the US Civil Rights Movement; the passage of the Voting Rights Act. From that time, the Marxists, Islamists and black separatists started taking over the civil rights movement, which had prior to that time been led by the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. For what was to be the last four years of his life, Martin Luther King was increasingly forced to run after the movement he had led in order to stay at the head of it, as the Marxists, Islamists and separatists took more and more control and shifted the movement away from becoming part of mainstream American society and into isolation and entitlements.

d) The Christian-led civil rights movement had looked to the story of the Exodus for inspiration, and had expressed a kinship with Jews. As the movement radicalized and moved away from its Christian origins, it became increasingly identified with "national liberation movements" around the world--very much including the PLO, founded in 1964. Increasingly overt antisemitism from leaders such as Stokely Carmichael became the norm. It was Carmichael, among others, who threw out the whites (largely Jews) from the civil rights movement.

e) The radicalized civil rights movement--the movement which identified with Islam, Marx, and anti-Western sentiments--is the movement that Michelle and Barack Obama (and, alas, Condi Rice) grew up in. Michelle Obama was born in 1964, as this shift was beginning; the only "civil rights movement" she knows from personal experience is the anti-American, antisemitic, pro-entitlement movement that started when she was a babe in arms. Barack Obama is only a few years older than Michelle; the same holds true for him.

the british mandate of palestine was the legal gov't but it was a colony of the UK not run by the locals. Jews could not even blow the shofar at the Kotel on the high holidays. So much for english freedom of religion as well as the U.k. sending jews back to europe during the holocoust.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #127 buzzsawmonkey

I wasn't trying to build a firestorm of any sort; most of what I've posted is old news to the folks here, but it bears repeating every now and then.

Gotcha, sometimes us old farts need reminding!

re: #131 buzzsawmonkey

The important things to remember about the formation of the PLO in 1964 are:

a) It was, as you say, formed before there was any "occupation" of Gaza and the West Bank.

b) It was formed with a pronounced Marxist tinge to its rhetoric; it was backed by the Soviet Union, and used the language of "liberation movements" then popular.

c) 1964 was the date of the major victory of the US Civil Rights Movement; the passage of the Voting Rights Act. From that time, the Marxists, Islamists and black separatists started taking over the civil rights movement, which had prior to that time been led by the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. For what was to be the last four years of his life, Martin Luther King was increasingly forced to run after the movement he had led in order to stay at the head of it, as the Marxists, Islamists and separatists took more and more control and shifted the movement away from becoming part of mainstream American society and into isolation and entitlements.

d) The Christian-led civil rights movement had looked to the story of the Exodus for inspiration, and had expressed a kinship with Jews. As the movement radicalized and moved away from its Christian origins, it became increasingly identified with "national liberation movements" around the world--very much including the PLO, founded in 1964. Increasingly overt antisemitism from leaders such as Stokely Carmichael became the norm. It was Carmichael, among others, who threw out the whites (largely Jews) from the civil rights movement.

e) The radicalized civil rights movement--the movement which identified with Islam, Marx, and anti-Western sentiments--is the movement that Michelle and Barack Obama (and, alas, Condi Rice) grew up in. Michelle Obama was born in 1964, as this shift was beginning; the only "civil rights movement" she knows from personal experience is the anti-American, antisemitic, pro-entitlement movement that started when she was a babe in arms. Barack Obama is only a few years older than Michelle; the same holds true for him.

Wow, you really know your stuff. Before this, I had no idea why MLK Jr. was such a big fan of Israel and later, with his passing, guys like Jesse 'Hymietown' Jackson, Rev. Wright and Farrakhan are shooting their mouths off. Damned Islamo-commies!

re: #126 imtoast

I understand that. However there comes a time when self preservation is priority number one. In my eyes, Israel is like the abused wife that keeps hoping he'll change, while walking on eggshells and losing her self -esteem and her own dreams and desires, until the day she's murdered.

תֵּל־אָ& #1489;ִיב
was founded in 1909 build on sand dunes which were purchased from local arabs.

re: #134 JSK1121

It is because of the connection between the "national liberation" movements such as the PLO and the domestic Marxists, Islamists and separatists who took over and co-opted the civil rights movement that I view Obama, his radical associates, and his racialist wife with such extreme suspicion, no matter what Obama happens to be promising at any given moment.

re: #135 Wilderstad

However there comes a time when self preservation is priority number one.

Israel has lived with this mandate from Day 1, and willl continue to do so. All Israel asks from us is that we support her in her quest.

re: #138 GeeWiz

I might add that Israel's quest is our own in the GWOT. To support Israel is to support our quest. If one fails to recognize that, then they fail to witness the threat WE together face.

re: #124 Shiplord Kirel

Thanks for the web page on the trireme. I used to follow some of its story in Wooden Boat magazine. At one point they sent out a call for short oarsmen with no sliding seat experience.

Also they found out that the quickest way to reverse direction was for each rower to spin around and grab the oar of the rower behind him, and row normally.

On 'Palestinian" anomalies and abnormalities:

Now we learn that,
Flipper is with the terrorists.

"On the second day, when we had no idea which way to go, along came a dolphin fish and said to us: "That is the right direction: Palestine is there." We set the compass to the direction of the fish. We sailed the entire day, and on the second night, we knew we were on our way to Palestine."

[Link: www.memritv.org...]

And when they got to the beach, they did what they do best beside having talks with fish, they murdered.

My opinion, for every rocket that lands in Israel, a power line or water line is cut. Let them provide for themselves with Arafish's billion$

re: #140 Ojoe

Thanks for the web page on the trireme. I used to follow some of its story in Wooden Boat magazine. At one point they sent out a call for short oarsmen with no sliding seat experience.

Also they found out that the quickest way to reverse direction was for each rower to spin around and grab the oar of the rower behind him, and row normally.

They could have just asked Ben Hur ;o)

re: #8 zombie

It'd be a pitiable spectacle, if they weren't so dangerous, and didn't have the sympathy of the world's left-wing intelligentsia.

Cognitive dissonance in action. I wouldn't necessarily call it all "left wing", although that seems to be the tendency. It's more of a semi religious thing, perhaps a counter to "right wing" fundamentalism, but with the same basic principle that there is an enemy out there and since we can't identify it clearly, it must be within us.

In the case of the "left" it is ourselves because nobody can be evil unless we make them so; in the case of the right it is that we are all basically evil but it is the "left" that prevents us from from overcoming it.

Le plus ca change le plus ce'st la meme chose.

Let's see if I get this straight.

1. One gang of Arab thugs goes to war with a rival gang of Arab thugs in the Gaza strip.

2. A number of the rival gang of Arab thugs, who are loyal to the gang chieftain Abbas, seeks asylum in Israel.

3. When the Israelis suggest that Abbas take these Arab thugs on to his own turf, Abbas refuses to take them on to his turf because he knows that they are Arab thugs who will terrorize his own Arab thugs, and perhaps some nice Arabs too.

4. The Israelis are stuck with them.

I have a modest recommendation: the Israelis should clean them up, feed them, minister to their wounds, and either put them in jail or form a special unit of the IDF composed of Arab thugs, loyal to Israel, who will do the right thing, if you get my drift.

.....................halp

he says; hit me harder

A few friends of mine went to a party in Jerusalem that was primarily made up Anglophone reporters, people who work for NGOs and UN agencies. What amazed them was the pervasive sense of the people they met and spoke with that Israel was the greatest human rights violator in the world and that the dismantling of Israel would be a great step forward for global human rights.

Now the idiocy of this position, the suicidal nature of this strategy to advance human rights is nothing short of breathtaking. Take Israel out of the Middle East and the region becomes nothing but Hama rules… especially when the nastiest people — those who want to destroy Israel — would feel empowered by such a victory. But try and tell that to people who are smart enough to believe they can’t be wrong, and credulous enough to believe the demopaths who pull their chains on a daily basis. And as a result, they are prime targets for a hate campaign against Israel.

How to Get the World To Hate Israel

As part of evaluating the competitive landscape of the popularity of nations, in a process referred to in marketing circles as ‘place branding,’ Israel, to no one’s great surprise, comes up short in brand likeability, ranking last out of 35 nations included in an August 2006 survey conducted by nation branding expert Simon Anholt, even less attractive to respondents than Indonesia, Estonia, and Turkey.

How could this have happened to a country that is the Middle East’s only thriving democracy and enjoys a remarkably robust economy that has spawned some 1000 startup high tech companies, for example, second only to the U.S.? How, in short, would you go about making the world hate Israel

read it and weep

...and while you have your hanky out

By Debbie Schlussel

In today's Wall Street Journal, columnist Bret Stephens--with whom I usually agree--has a column claiming we've won the war in Iraq and that it's over.

As evidence, he cites a bet he made with respected writer Francis Fukuyama in May 2003 for $100. Fukuyama bet that Iraq would be a mess five years after the invasion. Stephens says that Fukuyama wrote him a $100 check to settle the debt.

But here's the thing. We haven't won. We put our Shi'ite enemies in power. We completed the Shi'ite crescent. We energized the Shi'ite revival and strengthened Iran and Hezbollah. Not sure how that's winning.

As for whether or not things are a mess in Iraq and whether or not the war is over and we've "won"--whatever that means--why is it, if things are so great there and we've "won", that we are now taking in THOUSANDS of Iraqis as U.S. citizens, with the estimate being that we will "absorb" 30,000 Iraqi immigrants, most of them to Michigan, by year's end?

I just can;t believe what is going on here

Let's play truth or consequences here. Let's put Hamas in power and dismantle Isreal. Aside from seeing the utter collapse of a healthy nation into broken down society, let's see how the cause of human rights is advanced, especially with the displaced Jews, gays, women, Christians and anyone else who doesn't tow the hard line Islamic line. Isn't interesting that Fatah refugees are so incensed and afraid of Isreal's human rights record that they throw themselves at the mercy of the loving Hamas - no wait they're actually seeking Isreal's protection from that peace promoting group. How lovely.

re: #35 lifeofthemind

It does not depend on what Islam is. Please understand the concept of Dar al Harb and Dar al Islam. There is NO gray area. Period. It either IS or IS NOT. They ARE in The House of War. Either convert, submit, or die. In that order. Do you understand?

re: #149 ploome hineni

...and while you have your hanky out

By Debbie Schlussel

I just can;t believe what is going on here

Why are we bringing to the US those who we convinced to do the right thing in Iraq?

re: #152 Naso Tang

Why are we bringing to the US those who we convinced to do the right thing in Iraq?

because our government SUCKS?

re: #153 ploome hineni

because our government SUCKS?

It's all the fault of those right wing neocons.

/Vote for Obama

re: #101 JSK1121

Palestine was technically 'around' when the Romans renamed it. So it has been there for a thousand years; in name only. However, there is no real distinction, culturally, between "Palestinians" and Jordanians. There has never been a nation of Palestine and there is currently no such thing as a Palestinian People.

They are just Arabs, period. No native distinct ethnic or cultural group sat down and decided to carve up that section of the Middle East as it is now. No Arab subgroup decided that they were Palestinians, and were different enough from their other Arab cousins to warrant a land of their own. It was all done by outsiders for geopolitical reasons.

re: #149 ploome hineni

Just because the government of Iraq is Shi'a doesn't mean they are going to be Iran 2.

I too am highly disappointed that we couldn't have had better informed leadership that demanded a government with a secular core rather than yet another Arab theocracy.

However, it isn't exactly like every secular government in the history of the world is de facto better than every Shari'a adhering government.

It is quite possible that we will be walking out of a Shi'ite led Shari'a adhering Iraqi government that will be up to less shenanigans than Saddam Hussein was, with his nationalistic, ethnocentric socialism.
Also, with at least some democratic institutions in place in Iraq there is a capability to make deals with a (majority Shi'ite) people and not a regime. A position we don't often find ourselves in when dealing with that part of the world. We didn't have it with the Shah, and we don't have it with Al Saud.

Also, it will put us in the position of having 'allies' in the Middle East on just about every side of their sectarian conflicts with the exception of the ethnic Persian-Arab divide. That isn't exactly a terrible place to be in.

Right now a lot is still up in the air despite the decrease in violence decreasing, but it is likely that Iraq will have been worth the blood and treasure spent. Not just on moral grounds, having removed a butcher like Saddam, but also for more tangible and self interested gains.

re: #156 Scion9

Err...

Right now a lot is still up in the air despite the violence decreasing, but it is likely that Iraq will have been worth the blood and treasure spent.

The Arabs understand that all you need to do to get the support of 'liberal' westerners is convince them of your 'underdog' status. Once you've managed that, you can pretty much do as you like; any atrocities you choose to commit will be ascribed to the brutalising effect of the imperialist oppressor and will be seen not as depravity, but conviction.

re: #135 Wilderstad

I understand that. However there comes a time when self preservation is priority number one. In my eyes, Israel is like the abused wife that keeps hoping he'll change, while walking on eggshells and losing her self -esteem and her own dreams and desires, until the day she's murdered.

My hopes are that one day the battered wife has enough, picks up the heaviest cast-iron frying pan and swings it as hard as she can into the skull of the Neanderthal that keeps raping her. If the result of her swing is fatal to the swine, eh, so be it...

(Yes, ladies, I am a male that thinks that you are not to be abused by ANYONE and that a woman that can defend herself is an empowered woman, not one to be feared.)

Incredible article and an unbelievable situation. Landes documents what a lot of us have known for years. The average Pali on the streets would MUCH rather be under Israeli control than either Fatah or Hamas. They understand which side their 'bread is buttered' on so to speak. The whole notion of a 'Honor-Shame Culture' is dead on and the fact that those Fatah members would seek asylum in Israel is proof positive.

All that being said, its a shame that this argument and proof will be totally ignored by those who already have drank the 'Kool-aid' and have completely invested themselves in the Pali and leftist narratives.

Charles, many thanks for bringing this terrific article to our attention. The so called "progressives" have it so wrong it's like they live in another dimension when it comes to the Israeli / Palestinian conflict. Their ability to ignore reality as they embrace whatever ideological claptrap they want to believe is stunning.

The worst of it all is how so many "journalists" keep repeating the false progressive narrative in spite of the overwhelming evidence that it's nothing but a big lie. Whether it's climate change, human rights, whatever the issue, the progressive narrative always conforms to ideology, not facts.

Israel letting these snide anglophonic twits in, is like the US letting tokyo rose and Great Britain (before it became Pitiful Britain) letting lord haw-haw in during WW2.

I say move "paleSWINE" to saudi arabia. Let the so called "paleSWINIANS" have some oil rich lands to establish "paleSWINE" on. After all "paleSWINIANS" are fellow muslims to the saudis.