Here comes the great 2008 Vodka Bubble.

Double plus ungood. NATO will have to do something to retain credibility. Just shaking a finger will be insufficient.

they're using the same excuse (protecting ethnic russians) that hitler used vis a vis czechoslovakia in 1938

and the breakaway republic of Georgia

A correction might be in order.

Odd that it happened on the first day of the Olympics.

re: #3 _RememberTonyC

It also sets a dangerous precedent -- there are ethnic Russians all through the former Soviet republics.

re: #4 Occasional Reader

A correction might be in order.

Yep, wrote too fast there...

He also said Georgian forces had downed two Russian jets. There was no immediate confirmation Russia had sent bombers.

Foxnews story is reporting four warplanes down.

I'm sure there will be mass anti-war demonstrations and peace rallies in the US.

Against Georgia, of course.

If KOSOVO can have its way, lets have South Ossetie its way. Why measure situations with a double standard?

I read on several websites such as CNN, that Georgia is committing ethnic cleansing in South Ossetie. Nice ally the West has.

Wonder how long till they hit Atlanta? OHHHH not that Georgia...

re: #5 debutaunt

Odd that it happened on the first day of the Olympics.

Not really.

re: #9 Ben Hur

I'm sure there will be mass anti-war demonstrations and peace rallies in the US.

Against Georgia, of course.

Georgia invaded South Ossetie first. But of course Blame Russia as always.

President Obama and her husband were unavailable for comment.

Strange how the press is uncritically repeating Russia's claims that their troops in South Ossetia are "peacekeepers".

Someone one the previous thread mentioned a similarity to the Winter War.

For better or worse, Russia does it right. They don't go kowtowing to some international body. They ignore the wailing of the anti-war crowd, who unsurprisingly are rather silent in the face of Russian warmongering. They just do what they think they need to do. There's something to be said for the way Russians do things.

re: #11 saberry0530

Wonder how long till they hit Atlanta? OHHHH not that Georgia...

Somebody better tell barry before he says something stupid?

re: #13 Forever

Georgia invaded South Ossetie first. But of course Blame Russia as always.

Isn't South Osseite in Georgia?

Any specific word on what equipment the Russians are using? When they resumed those Bear flights over the north Atlantic everyone got scared, until they realized they were facing 1960s era prop-driven relics. There's an iconic picture of a sleek 21st century NATO fighter out of northern Britain trying to slow down enough to pace the lumbering, ball-turreted monstrosity (ripped off from stolen WWII US B-29 plans, no less).

re: #12 Nevergiveup

Not really.

That's exactly what I thought.

re: #19 Ben Hur

Isn't South Osseite in Georgia?

Yes.

Fear not all you nay sayers, Condi is on the job!

Speaking in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, Ms Rice said Russia should help resolve tensions instead of contributing to them.

/////

re: #7 Charles

Sorry to nitpick...South Ossetia is a breakaway republic from Georgia, not Russia.

This is going to get out of control. It's going to get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

re: #18 Nevergiveup

Somebody better tell barry before he says something stupid?

AMEN! AMEN! AMEN! Is Georgia the 56th or 57th state?

re: #17 pimp_conservative

For better or worse, Russia does it right. They don't go kowtowing to some international body. They ignore the wailing of the anti-war crowd, who unsurprisingly are rather silent in the face of Russian warmongering. They just do what they think they need to do. There's something to be said for the way Russians do things.

Yeah, and the mafia used to be efficient also. Ah the good old days?

re: #18 Nevergiveup

Somebody better tell barry before he says something stupid?

Shhhh...

re: #13 Forever

Georgia invaded South Ossetie first. But of course Blame Russia as always.

And it was sarcasm.

The left anti-war types tend to protest the victims of aggression more than the aggressors themselves.

re: #23 Da_Beerfreak

Fear not all you nay sayers, Condi is on the job!

Speaking in the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, Ms Rice said Russia should help resolve tensions instead of contributing to them.

/////

She also urged the Russian leaders to "turn that frown upside-down".

////

re: #29 Ben Hur

And it was sarcasm.

The left anti-war types tend to protest the victims of aggression more than the aggressors themselves.

Wait a second.

Did that make any sense?

re: #19 Ben Hur

Isn't South Osseite in Georgia?

Didnt belong Kosovo to Serbia. Somehow that was totally right of Kosovo to declare independence. Why cry about South Ossetie?

And isn't North Ossetie in Russia? And shouldnt Ossetie be one country after all.

re: #12 Nevergiveup

Not really.

I was hoping Taiwan would declare independence today, but I don't think they, or for the matter we, have the stones for it, unfortunately.

re: #31 Ben Hur

Wait a second.

Did that make any sense?

YEs ... and well no..

Expanding NATO into the Caucuses is a notoriously bad idea.

re: #31 Ben Hur

Wait a second.

Did that make any sense?

Yes, sadly, it did. The anti-war folks love to protest againt the retaliation, rather than the intial act.

I dated a Bulgarian girl for 2.5 years - we met in Leipzig, Germany and it was a very long-distance relationship (she spoke English fluently, some German and Japanese - when I visited BG and we didn't want people to know I'm American (and get charged more), we'd speak Japanese to each other). She has a good friend in Tblisi, Georgia and I'm sure is very worried. This is not good news. The Russian leadership has an enormous inferiority complex and is taking it out on little neighboring countries. The question is how this impacts the election. Can you imagine Obama having to step in and making decisions, deal with foreign leaders, etc.?

Strange how the this is playing itself out 17 years after the fall of the USSR.

re: #35 Dirk Diggler

Expanding NATO into the Caucuses is a notoriously bad idea.

Yes, but we can counter balance that by bringing Turkey into....ah....nevermind!

re: #31 Ben Hur

Wait a second.

Did that make any sense?

Sort of - although antiwar lefties seem to consider themselves the ultimate victims of aggression (i.e., anything that happens anywhere in the world that they don't like), and you never see them protesting each other.

re: #31 Ben Hur

Wait a second.

Did that make any sense?

You are no longer the poster you could be, and that you once were.

re: #32 Forever

Didnt belong Kosovo to Serbia. Somehow that was totally right of Kosovo to declare independence. Why cry about South Ossetie?

And isn't North Ossetie in Russia? And shouldnt Ossetie be one country after all.

Are the Ossetie Russian or Georgian?

Or are they Ossetie.

re: #38 Occasional Reader

Strange how the this is playing itself out 17 years after the fall of the USSR.

Well, the outer structures of the USSR fell, but a former KGB agent (is there such a thing as a former KGB agent?) is in control.

In theory I would say that Russia is at the height of it's power militarily, not geographically.

Can't these "Citizens of the World" just get along?

re: #6 joncelli

It also sets a dangerous precedent -- there are ethnic Russians all through the former Soviet republics.

Hell! There are ethnic Russians in Northeast Minneapolis.

re: #37 SFGoth

I dated a Bulgarian girl for 2.5 years - we met in Leipzig, Germany and it was a very long-distance relationship (she spoke English fluently, some German and Japanese - when I visited BG and we didn't want people to know I'm American (and get charged more), we'd speak Japanese to each other). She has a good friend in Tblisi, Georgia and I'm sure is very worried. This is not good news. The Russian leadership has an enormous inferiority complex and is taking it out on little neighboring countries. The question is how this impacts the election. Can you imagine Obama having to step in and making decisions, deal with foreign leaders, etc.?

Bush and Putin are currently having a laugh and eating dinner together in Beijing. Good leadership of both.

re: #38 Occasional Reader

Strange how the this is playing itself out 17 years after the fall of the USSR.

I don't think there is any doubt Putin would like to reestablish a facsimile of the old USSR.

Ossetia straddles both Russia and Georgia. North Ossetia was subsumed into Russia, while South Ossetia is claimed by Georgia and looking at a map it isn't difficult to see why. Russia claims South Ossetia as its own, and looks to the fact that many South Ossetians have Russian background. Of course, Stalin purposefully moved millions of Russians into far flung provinces to change the demographics and assert Russian control.

It's been a simmering mess ever since the fall of the Soviet Union, but Ossetia is a mess and Islamists and Chechen terrorists have been active here in the past.

Small and stupid often leads to big and ugly.

re: #47 Forever

I would love Bush to just throw down with , "Pooty Poot...", but I guess he is too busy looking into his eyes and seeing that he has a good soul...or something to that effect.

re: #17 pimp_conservative

For better or worse, Russia does it right. They don't go kowtowing to some international body. They ignore the wailing of the anti-war crowd, who unsurprisingly are rather silent in the face of Russian warmongering. They just do what they think they need to do. There's something to be said for the way Russians do things.

Genuine pacifists are sent to Siberia.

re: #42 Ben Hur

Are the Ossetie Russian or Georgian?

Or are they Ossetie.

Does it matter? South Ossetie wants to be independent of Georgia and Russia supports that act of independence.

Just as the West supports Kosovo to be independent from Serbia.

If the West opposes South Ossetie to become independent, than they are BEYOND hypocrite.

re: #35 Dirk Diggler

Expanding NATO into the Caucuses is a notoriously bad idea.

NATO should be disbanded. It's outlived its purpose. It was designed to be a bulwark against the USSR - and an excuse for us to stay involved in Europe. Nowadays, it's us doing ALL the heavy lifting (apparently even the Brits won't fight), with admirable but tiny assists from Poland and Bulgaria (understandably, since in BG's case, it's got the population of NYC - 12 mil). Get rid of NATO and tell Western Europe "you're on your own now. Better put some of that social services $ towards defense. Maybe you can teach your young-uns how to man up, if any of you can remember".

re: #49 lawhawk

Stalin purposefully moved millions of Russians into far flung provinces to change the demographics and assert Russian control.

Sending the troops in to protect its SETTLERS?

Haven't we gone through this before?

The boys should be home by Christmas

Putin will have that country back to where it was before the Curtain fell. Good luck to them. If any Russians are reading this: get out now, while you still can.

re: #53 Forever

I'm merely observing here. Why do you feel Kosovo = Ossetia?

So unless Debka is making it up, there's OF COURSE a major backstory that the MSM (REUTERS?) will not write into their articles. As usual, it is a combination of OIL and the Russians following their escaping Jews to the Middle East to keep persecuting them by controlling their access to a non-coersive oil supply.

Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

DEBKAfile’s geopolitical experts note that on the surface level, the Russians are backing the separatists of S. Ossetia and neighboring Abkhazia as payback for the strengthening of American influence in tiny Georgia and its 4.5 million inhabitants. However, more immediately, the conflict has been sparked by the race for control over the pipelines carrying oil and gas out of the Caspian region.
The Russians may just bear with the pro-US Georgian president Mikhail Saakashvili’s ambition to bring his country into NATO. But they draw a heavy line against his plans and those of Western oil companies, including Israeli firms, to route the oil routes from Azerbaijan and the gas lines from Turkmenistan, which transit Georgia, through Turkey instead of hooking them up to Russian pipelines.

Good Morning Lizards! It's Bright and Cheerful in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland.

I have to read-up on my Eastern European Formerly the USSR History, cause I've never heard of South or North Ossetie. Although, I will brag that I knew there is a country named Georgia and it is over there by the Near East.

Got caught-up reading the spin-offs, so my alloted time on the computer is nearly up.

If I don't write again, have a great day Lizards!

re: #58 Honorary Yooper

I'm merely observing here. Why do you feel Kosovo = Ossetia?

Was just going to ask that.

re: #47 Forever

Bush and Putin are currently having a laugh and eating dinner together in Beijing. Good leadership of both.

Listen mister we could use a man like Ronald Reagan again.
Didn't take no Russian crap.
The words he spoke weren't full of pap.
Gee, that wall he gave a slap
Those were the days!

If my knowledge is correct, North Ossetia is in Russia and South Ossetia is in Georgia, yet Ossetians are actually ethnically of Presian origin.

South Ossetia is probably smaller than Los Angeles County.

Does anyone know if South Ossetia is breaking away in hopes of becoming independent or are they attempting rejoin North Ossetia and become part of Russia again?

War for oil pipeline?

Then we definately won't hear from the American anti-War left.

OK, for those of us lizards (or maybe just me) who don't know what's really going on here, can someone post a synopsis of the situation? Was Georgia really doing the ethnic cleansing thing? Or is this a case of the new Russia, same as the old Russia/USSR?

Also, should NATO get involved? God, I hope not. The words "NATO at war with Russia" scare the crap out of me (and hopefully any other sane person). That said, is NATO obligated to?

Please help. I'm woefully uneducated about this situation. Been focussing on the ME and islamism, thought this was just a little tiff. Now boom, it's war.

Scary scary times.

re: #58 Honorary Yooper

I'm merely observing here. Why do you feel Kosovo = Ossetia?

I feel Kosovo is a precedent and that the West by supporting its illegal clarification of independence should not oblige now all of sudden to South Ossetie becoming independent from Georgia.

South Ossetia inhabits a distinctive population from the rest of Georgia.

Medvedev--Putin's poodle-- says he is protecting russian citizens. I guess by killing them?

Presian = Persian

Ugh.

re: #10 Forever

If KOSOVO can have its way, lets have South Ossetie its way. Why measure situations with a double standard?

I read on several websites such as CNN, that Georgia is committing ethnic cleansing in South Ossetie. Nice ally the West has.

But is it true?

re: #66 Forever

Are you a Serbian nationalist?

/Just a question.

They made have played the "ethnic cleansing" card a little early.

re: #59 Sunlight

So unless Debka is making it up, there's OF COURSE a major backstory that the MSM (REUTERS?) will not write into their articles. As usual, it is a combination of OIL and the Russians following their escaping Jews to the Middle East to keep persecuting them by controlling their access to a non-coersive oil supply.

Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

so Russia is going to war for OIL?

re: #49 lawhawk

re: #59 Sunlight

re: #63 Ringo the Gringo

I really don't have to go anywhere and read-up on the history of the region. I just have to stay right here.

THANKS Lizards!

re: #20 Diamond Bullet

Any specific word on what equipment the Russians are using? When they resumed those Bear flights over the north Atlantic everyone got scared, until they realized they were facing 1960s era prop-driven relics. There's an iconic picture of a sleek 21st century NATO fighter out of northern Britain trying to slow down enough to pace the lumbering, ball-turreted monstrosity (ripped off from stolen WWII US B-29 plans, no less).

The Russians got three intact B-29s that landed with emergencies. They disassembled them, copied them and created the TU-4 "BULL", a nearly exact copy of the B-29.

With all the opening day pageantry...it's going to be one hell of an Olympics.

In Israel, you don't mess with Gruzinis (Georgians).

Lots of brothers.

Here's a map of all the various ethnicities in the region.

NATO should be disbanded. It's outlived its purpose. It was designed to be a bulwark against the USSR - and an excuse for us to stay involved in Europe. Nowadays, it's us doing ALL the heavy lifting (apparently even the Brits won't fight), with admirable but tiny assists from Poland and Bulgaria (understandably, since in BG's case, it's got the population of NYC - 12 mil).

You forgot the offensive war that the NATO alliance waged against the Serbs in Kosovo. That was a violation of NATO's charter, which specifies that the NATO alliance would only respond to attacks on its member states.

When it comes to military alliances, mission creep is a very bad thing.

re: #70 Honorary Yooper

Are you a Serbian nationalist?

/Just a question.

No, in fact I am 100% Dutch and when voting I lean to the right.
I have no sympathies for nationalism and so forth, but I cannot stand the hypocrits in the Western world that oppose anything Russia does and hooray anything that the West does. Just trying to bring the balance to the discussion and I know 99% of the Lizards will hate me for my stance. :)

re: #25 TheConservator

This is going to get out of control. It's going to get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

Always with the negative waves, Moriarty.

The U.N. to the rescue! (Not).

As the world's eyes turn to China for the Olympics and towards Russia being Russia, it just occurred to me that it might be a good time for Israel to test some of it's advanced weaponry over the Iranian desert?

I am told that part of Georgia is mostly Muslim.

re: #72 Eowyn2

so Russia is going to war for OIL?

No... for CONTROL... that's their thing. Although, the $$markup they can charge and coersion they can perpetrate by having the oil's critical path transit their network... priceless.

I have one question.....Where are the Ghosts?

sorry having a Ghost Recon flashback here........

re: #54 SFGoth

You are dead wrong on so many counts. The expansion of NATO into eastern Europe has been a huge success. Romania, Poland, Hungary, the Baltic States, Ukraine & Georgia all know that NATO membership will keep the Russian bear off their backs. Disband NATO & Russia fills the power vaccuum.

NATO also has a frontline position on the Middle East. It's not inconceivable that Iraq will one day join NATO.

Oh, and Canada is pulling their load just fine in Afghanistan, thank you very much.

re: #66 Forever

I feel Kosovo is a precedent and that the West by supporting its illegal clarification of independence should not oblige now all of sudden to South Ossetie becoming independent from Georgia.

South Ossetia inhabits a distinctive population from the rest of Georgia.

The Flathead Indian Reservation inhabitants are a distinctive population from the rest of the US. Shall they be an independent nation?

There were a whole bunch of folks in NC, SC, GA, VA, AL, MS who wanted to secede from the United States and some still do, shall we allow that as well? They talk differently than I do.

re: #65 MoonbatBane

OK, for those of us lizards (or maybe just me) who don't know what's really going on here, can someone post a synopsis of the situation? [snip]

You are not alone. Sorry to be raising a note of pessimism, but I suspect Ms Rice will be making some explanations soon. I just can't imagine how she's going to tie it in with the Palestinians and the 1960's civil rights movement.

re: #76 Ben Hur

Did you read the whole article? The bros are helping out.

re: #31 Ben Hur

Wait a second.

Did that make any sense?

It made sense before it didn't make sense.

Does that make sense?

rsquare

re: #79 Forever

No, in fact I am 100% Dutch and when voting I lean to the right.
I have no sympathies for nationalism and so forth, but I cannot stand the hypocrits in the Western world that oppose anything Russia does and hooray anything that the West does. Just trying to bring the balance to the discussion and I know 99% of the Lizards will hate me for my stance. :)

Most of us want information.

re: #77 Ringo the Gringo

Here's a map of all the various ethnicities in the region.

Why does this make me thankful for the American Melting Pot?

re: #83 maddogg

I am told that part of Georgia is mostly Muslim.

Actually Georgia is predominantly Christian.

re: #90 rsquare

are you from Michigan?

re: #77 Ringo the Gringo

Here's a map of all the various ethnicities in the region.

What a mess. There appear to be a lot of differing ethicities in a very compact area.

re: #63 Ringo the Gringo

You can bet the Russians are involved for their own interests. And they don't give a damn about the Ossetians.

Obama and McCain have both issued calls for restraint. Meanwhile, President Bush has ordered one from column A and 2 choices from column B!

re: #62 SFGoth

Listen mister we could use a man like Ronald Reagan again.
Didn't take no Russian crap.
The words he spoke weren't full of pap.
Gee, that wall he gave a slap
Those were the days!

Boy the way Bob Geldof played
songs for Ethiopia aid
Michael Milken had it made
Those were the days

re: #93 Forever

Actually Georgia is predominantly Christian.

I am told the breakaway area is mostly Muslim. I said nothing about the rest of Georgia.

re: #91 Ben Hur

Most of us want information.

Well, there is no such thing as objective information anyway. It is and will always be coloured with the political colour that you want to see it.

How long before Obama say's we should go in a help?

re: #73 ggt

Well stay safe!

re: #10 Forever

If KOSOVO can have its way, lets have South Ossetie its way. Why measure situations with a double standard?

I read on several websites such as CNN, that Georgia is committing ethnic cleansing in South Ossetie. Nice ally the West has.

Not exactly, there is ethnic conflict that goes both ways. Russia sent in a huge number of it's ethnic people into South Ossetia in the 1920's. The fear of Georgia is that South Ossietia will join Russia, putting a Russian presence over the Caucasus. Currently Russian Nationalists aer actively encouraging the flow of black market goods through Ossetia into Georgia. The black market trade has become so large that it is affecting Georgian tax revenues. Georgian leaders see this as economic warfare which has increased since Kosovo was recognized by NATO countries.

For the past year there has been a sniper war where most of the victims have been Georgians. But the over arching reason for this is that Georgia would have to vastly increase their military if Russia absorbs South Ossetia.

re: #101 Dustoff-507

How long before Obama say's we should go in a help?

Help who?

Obama: "If Russia does not withdraw its troops immediately, the US will boycott the upcoming Olympics."

/

re: #94 ggt Hey ggt!
DON'T GO TO SLEEP YET! LOL!
How are you doing?

re: #99 maddogg

I am told the breakaway area is mostly Muslim. I said nothing about the rest of Georgia.

Misread your post. In that case you are right.

OOPS

we should go in and help?

re: #89 Sunlight

Did you read the whole article? The bros are helping out.

Mansierres!

From Wikipedia:

The Ossetians descend from the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe. They became Christians during the early Middle Ages under Georgian and Byzantine influence. In the 8th century a consolidated Alan kingdom, referred to in sources of the period as Alania, emerged in the northern Caucasus Mountains, roughly in the location of the latter-day Circassia and the modern North Ossetia-Alania. At its height, Alania was a centralized monarchy with a a strong military force and benefited from the Silk Road.

Forced out of their medieval homeland (south of the River Don in present-day Russia) during Mongol rule, they migrated towards and over the Caucasus mountains, where they formed three distinct territorial entities:

Digor in the west came under the influence of the neighbouring Kabard people who introduced Islam. Today the two main Digor districts in North Ossetia are Digora district or Digorskiy rayon (with Digora as its centre) and Irafskiy rayon or Iraf district (with Chikola as its centre). Digora district is Christian while some parts of Iraf district are Muslim. The dialect spoken in Digor part of North Osetia is Digor, the most archaic form of Osetian language.
Kudar in the south, in the Georgian central region of Shida Kartli. After the Russian annexation of Georgia in 1801, this part formed the Ossetian okrug within Tiflis governorate from 1846 to 1859 and in 1922 received an autonomy within the Georgian SSR as South Ossetia.
Iron and Digor in the north became what is now North Ossetia-Alania, under Russian rule from 1767. Iron language is a younger version of Ossetian language and is the literary and written language of Ossetians.
Joseph Stalin's father, Vissarion Dzhugashvili, is believed to have been an Ossetian (albeit one asimilated into Georgian culture).[citation needed]

In recent history the Ossetians participated in Ossetian-Ingush conflict (1991-1992) and Georgian-Ossetian conflicts (1918-1920 and early 1990s).

re: #73 ggt

Ooops, by "right here," I thought you meant you were in Georgia. Misread on my part. Sigh, more caffeine needed...

re: #104 Sunlight

Who knows, he loves to change his mind.

Obama: "If Russia does not withdraw its troops immediately, the US will deflate all their tires."

re: #105 christheprofessor

LOL.... nice

re: #103 Quilly Mammoth

Sounds like a Sudetenland situation, and Georgia is playing the part of Czechoslovakia.

re: #113 xtraBilly

Obama: "If Russia does not withdraw its troops immediately, the US will deflate all their tires."

Well Tanks use tracks, but then it is only Obama. Nevermind.

Here is a British analysis of that mess ...

It raises some interesting points.
As usual, tehre is no Black & White - there's only Grey ...

The existence of Georgia is a highly important strategic factor of great magnitude in who has control over the routing of gas and oil pipelines. If one looks at a map of the existing as well as potential oil delivery routes, one can see that Georgia and transiting oil and gas are of critical importance to Europe and have little to do with the availability of oil and gas in the US. Look at a pipeline map of the area.

re: #10 Forever

If KOSOVO can have its way, lets have South Ossetie its way. Why measure situations with a double standard?

I read on several websites such as CNN, that Georgia is committing ethnic cleansing in South Ossetie. Nice ally the West has.

And you trust CNN? After spending time here?

re: #113 xtraBilly

Hey, you trying to start a war? (-:

re: #80 CyanSnowHawk

re: #25 TheConservator

This is going to get out of control. It's going to get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

Always with the negative waves, Moriarty.

You missed the reference -- it's Fred Thompson's character's statement on the deck of the carrier in The Hunt for Red October after a plane crashes attempting to land.

'We would like to advise Putin and other Russain leaders that there is no military solution to this conflict. Enjoy.'

- Israeli Leadership

re: #122 Maine's Michael

Just think of children.

re: #106 realwest

Well, I'm getting read to start my day. We definitely have bad timing!

Doin' ok, allergies still a mess. Thanks for asking!

How you? Better, yet, shoot me and e-mail with the full update.

re: #111 MoonbatBane

no prob --I have fresh coffee right here.

The last time North Ossetia came to our attention, it was because of the Beslan school massacre there.

There is a tendency to exaggerate the myth of the "age-old ethnic tensions" part of these conflicts. The fact is the local people have gotten along just fine for centuries, except when some outside power or influence uses the ethnic or religious issues to drive their agenda. The old guard Communists under Milosovic did that in Serbia, Bosnia & Kosovo. The Russians are doing it now in the Caucasus. It is a means to hold onto power in a region they have long considered "theirs". The Russians have supported Ossetian separatists as a way to weaken Georgia and keep them under the Russian thumb.

OT

Oil is down to 116.04 a barrel, down $3.98 on the day.

re: #35 Dirk Diggler

Expanding NATO into the Caucuses is a notoriously bad idea.

It may be, but Georgia is afraid that if the Russians take South Ossetia or Abkhazia (another break away area of Georgia) they will soon have no choice but to rejoin Russia. It is almost certain that Russia supprted the ethnic cleansing of Georgians from Abkhazia in the early 90's. In 1989 there were almost 250,000 Georgian ethnics in Abkhazia....more than all other ethnicities combined by far. Today there are less than 50,000.

Caucasian politics are soooooo messed up. The Ossetians are descendents of the Alans, a Sarmatian group similar to the ancient Scythians. They are part of the Iranian language family (not "Iran", but rather referring to the Iranian branch of the Indo-Iranian subgroup of Indo-European languages).

I don't know if they're Muslim or Christian, or mixed. Since Georgia is Christian and South Ossetia wants to be NOT in Georgia, I would suspect Muslim.

The world does not need another failed, toy "state" in this region. What a mess.

re: #117 yma o hyd

Here is a British analysis of that mess ...

It raises some interesting points.
As usual, tehre is no Black & White - there's only Grey ...

See #72. The Times barely hints at what Debka call out... control of the oil supply.

re: #131 Sunlight

See #72. The Times barely hints at what Debka call out... control of the oil supply.

I'd trust The Times over Debka though. Debka has been hit or miss in the past.

re: #123 Dustoff-507

Your point?

#17 pimp sez:
There's something to be said for the way Russians do things.

I have often thought President Bush should (once in awhile) be more like Mr. Putin.

And when I hear ‘ethnic cleansing’ (ie murder, rape, torture and driving people from their land) the word Muslim is floating somewhere nearby in my mind.
Like the Uighurs (Muslims) in western China complaining of ethnic repression (tucoque anyone?) so they bomb policemen and hack them to pieces with swords.

Btw the region in question is contiguous with Chechnya, Chechen rebels = Muslims. Is it just me or is everywhere there is armed conflict really connected with Muslims using different designations (Chechen, Uighur, Turkish, Albanian) waging a local jihad?

I’ve been reading way too much history. Gotta lighten up!

From Fox News Fast Fax

South Ossetia

POPULATION: Estimated at 70,000 people, who are overwhelmingly ethnic Ossetians. An estimated 14,000 ethnic Georgians live in several villages in the region. Ossetians and Georgians are Orthodox Christians, as are the majority of Russians. Many have Russian citizenship.

Waiting for the left to denounce this whole thing...

re: #132 Honorary Yooper

I'd trust The Times over Debka though. Debka has been hit or miss in the past.

Unless the Times is incomplete. Like the Reuters article above. It would be great of the Times would fact check the Debka summary if they can.

re: #131 Sunlight

See #72. The Times barely hints at what Debka call out... control of the oil supply.

I saw #72 - it may very well play a part, but its not the only part in Russia's decision to enter Ossetia with tanks - here a report from the Beeb.
(Don't know if you will be able to watch the video, though ...)

re: #137 Sunlight

"if", not "of". Sorry.

re: #101 Dustoff-507

How long before Obama say's we should go in a help?

I don't know about that. It seems that many of us Lizards are having a hard time with the specifics of the situation (personally, I'm still not sure who to be cheering for here), and if we're having a hard time with this, I'm betting that Obambi will simply utter some sort of non-specific platitude about "peace in our time" and leave it at that.

re: #92 scottishbuzzsaw

Why does this make me thankful for the American Melting Pot?

we all are

re: #136 wiffersnapper

Waiting for the left to denounce this whole thing...

Waiting for Nancy Pelosi to save the planet.

Send Obama.

The Lightworker will fix it.

re: #92 scottishbuzzsaw

Why does this make me thankful for the American Melting Pot?

That was the very first thought that went through my mind before I even saw anything about oil, etc.

re: #130 scott in east bay

I don't know if they're Muslim or Christian

They are mostly Eastern Orthodx Christians.

re: #5 debutaunt

Odd that it happened on the first day of the Olympics.

Supposed to be the "luckiest day" and all...

Looks like war in Europe... big question is:
Does anyone else get involved or does outright military aggression get rewarded?

If anyone else does get involved does it become the flashpoint for an escalation of worldwide sized carnage or stay regional?

re: #121 SFGoth

re: #25 TheConservator

This is going to get out of control. It's going to get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

You missed the reference -- it's Fred Thompson's character's statement on the deck of the carrier in The Hunt for Red October after a plane crashes attempting to land.

negative ghost rider.. The pattern is full

This fighting is not about local ethnic strife or self-determination. It's all about extending Russian control in the Caucasus. Period.

re: #99 maddogg

So the Russians want more Muslims? Hmmm. More likely they want to rebuild the Empire.

I haven't looked at too many of the European papers' comment sections yet, but I see the Bush/Oil conspiracy theories popping up quite a bit in the Times of London, notably from Russian commenters. The old Russian paranoia against foreigners is seemingly still going strong, I've been seeing a lot of this type comment in the last few months asserting the US is behind everything that goes haywire in the former Soviet Union, and it's all about the oil. I've noticed we''re really swimming in all this stolen oil.
/S

re: #121 SFGoth

re: #25 TheConservator

This is going to get out of control. It's going to get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.

You missed the reference -- it's Fred Thompson's character's statement on the deck of the carrier in The Hunt for Red October after a plane crashes attempting to land.

I see your Red October and raise you a Kelly's Heroes.

re: #146 anotherindyfilmguy

Supposed to be the "luckiest day" and all...

Looks like war in Europe... big question is:
Does anyone else get involved or does outright military aggression get rewarded?

If anyone else does get involved does it become the flashpoint for an escalation of worldwide sized carnage or stay regional?

I'll be very bold and dare the prediction that it will fizzle out.
Two reasons for it:
a) that the Russians went in on the day the Olympic Games opened, according to the old trick of 'This is a good day for hiding bad news' ...
b) because the Olympic Games are in fact on now, and as most of the world is more interested in that rather than an obscure part of the former Soviet Union (where they've been shooting at each other for years anyway) it will fizzle because of a lack of media attention.

Of course - I may be totally wrong ...

re: #53 Forever

Does it matter? South Ossetie wants to be independent of Georgia and Russia supports that act of independence.

Just as the West supports Kosovo to be independent from Serbia.

If the West opposes South Ossetie to become independent, than they are BEYOND hypocrite.

I call Bullshit. Serbia lost because they indulged in fascist level ethnic cleansing and Stalinist bullying. They may have had an argument to begin with but like the Palestinians they lost all credibility due to their own misconduct. So grow up. Georgia is a sovereign and independent country that has been invaded by a foreign power. Russia has no fig leaf of treaty approval or cover to sanction this naked power grab. It is all about the oil for Russia. The reference to Israel makes sense. For once Debka may have a point.

re: #138 yma o hyd

Beeb is so far left... and the left just melt at the mention of "separatists". I mean, I heard today the the International Red Cross is squawking about war crimes because the rescuers of the FARC prisoners used reporters and red cross disguises. I can't remember them ever saying anything about FARC being a war crime. And what about the Russian "settlers" who have been sent over the years to this "breakaway" province... and the Russian "peacekeepers" who end up being human shields... the hypocrisy of the world citizens just stinks.

I met a Russian woman at my cousin's wedding last weekend. She was super impressed when I asked her if she celebrated May 9. She was more impressed when I rattled off the names Zhukov, Rokossovsky, and Konev, but that's from reading lots of WWII books and playing Hearts of Iron over and over and over (it's takes a Jew to win it for Germany). How do you rescue a country that goes from Czarist rule to Communism to gangsterism?

re: #82 Nevergiveup

As the world's eyes turn to China for the Olympics and towards Russia being Russia, it just occurred to me that it might be a good time for Israel to test some of it's advanced weaponry over the Iranian desert?

I'm expecting something in South America.

re: #59 Sunlight

So unless Debka is making it up, there's OF COURSE a major backstory that the MSM (REUTERS?) will not write into their articles. As usual, it is a combination of OIL and the Russians following their escaping Jews to the Middle East to keep persecuting them by controlling their access to a non-coersive oil supply.

Israel backs Georgia in Caspian Oil Pipeline Battle with Russia

No blood for oil!
//

re: #65 MoonbatBane

OK, for those of us lizards (or maybe just me) who don't know what's really going on here, can someone post a synopsis of the situation? Was Georgia really doing the ethnic cleansing thing? Or is this a case of the new Russia, same as the old Russia/USSR?

Also, should NATO get involved? God, I hope not. The words "NATO at war with Russia" scare the crap out of me (and hopefully any other sane person). That said, is NATO obligated to?

Please help. I'm woefully uneducated about this situation. Been focussing on the ME and islamism, thought this was just a little tiff. Now boom, it's war.

Scary scary times.

Very scary times, this is real. Russia is caught in the Chechen tar baby because the pipelines run through there so they can't give it up. To stop alternate routes being run through Turkey the Russians have kept troops in breakaway parts of Georgia. One to the north in Ossetia one to the west on the Black Sea in Abkhazia. So Russia is fighting al-Queda backed terrorists in Chechnya while helping to destabilize another country 30 miles away and ends up providing cover for more terrorists. Every sin the left accuses the US of falsely in Iraq the Russian policy is doing in the Causcasus. The pro-American President is trying to get Georgia moving and into the western alliance.

re: #154 Sunlight

Too true, alas!
Still - this thing has been simmering for a few years, and imo it would be wrong to reduce it to just a question of oil- and gas-pipelines. That fact might have given more impetus to Russia's aggression, but at the break-up of the Soviet Union the former comrades were mightily annoyed when edvard Shevardnaze became the first president of Georgia which ahd declared independence unilaterally ...

What I have yet to see an explanation or analysis of is just what the hell Russia has to gain from this?

re: #79 Forever

No, in fact I am 100% Dutch and when voting I lean to the right.
I have no sympathies for nationalism and so forth, but I cannot stand the hypocrits in the Western world that oppose anything Russia does and hooray anything that the West does. Just trying to bring the balance to the discussion and I know 99% of the Lizards will hate me for my stance. :)

Oh yeah, Russia has feelings too. (roll eyes). Not into history much? Don't know much about Putin? Obviously you don't.

Russians are gangsters of the worst type...its proven that Russian commanders try and profit from whatever sector their units occupy. That includes kidnapping, extortion, drug dealing etc etc...the list goes on and on.

and to think Bumbling-Bush said about Putin "I looked into his eyes and saw his soul".

re: #159 yma o hyd

Too true, alas!
Still - this thing has been simmering for a few years, and imo it would be wrong to reduce it to just a question of oil- and gas-pipelines. That fact might have given more impetus to Russia's aggression, but at the break-up of the Soviet Union the former comrades were mightily annoyed when edvard Shevardnaze became the first president of Georgia which ahd declared independence unilaterally ...

Right. So the Russians are trying to keep and populate with Russians a province almost cutting tiny Georgia in two... With weapons based there, Georgia is potentially under fire all the time... sound familiar?

My prediction.

Now that Russia has entered territory that it has publicly recognized as belonging to Georgia it will be very hard for NATO to say "no" to Georgia now. Georgia will cede South Ossitia to Russian control, put a gigantic fence around it and let Russia deal with the economic devastation. Virtually the entire economy of that region centered around black markets.

They will also try and lobby Russia to get out of Abhakzia.

All in all, this is what really scares me about a potential Obama presidency. Sometimes the sh*t just hits the fan on a random Friday, and do we really want Obama immediately leaping into action by flipping through his rolodex to see which of his non-under-bus allies can tell him what to think? Issuing vaguely worded press releases that the Georgians and Russians are "each the change that you seek"? The man literally has no experience or knowledge of what to do in this situation - it'll be like watching a freshman QB in his first game taking blitz after blitz, 'cept that each sack is actually the destruction of thousands of lives and vast swathes of property. It's a truly chilling prospect.

re: #163 Sunlight

Right. So the Russians are trying to keep and populate with Russians a province almost cutting tiny Georgia in two... With weapons based there, Georgia is potentially under fire all the time... sound familiar?

Exactly. Georgia has to either keep South Ossitia _or_ join NATO. This situation forces that development.

re: #161 Hard Right

Oh yeah, Russia has feelings too. (roll eyes). Not into history much? Don't know much about Putin? Obviously you don't.

I know quite something about Putin. And if it was not for him, Russia would still be lead by a drunk, a retard or some other incapable moron and it the ultra-capitalists would still be able to make tremendous amounts of money at the cost of 99% of the population.

Tell me why a majority of the Russians support Putin and see him as a hero? While in the West we of course only see Kasparov and other opponents crying - backed by the elite that got kicked out -.

Bush is weak compared to Putin and with McCain or Obama following, it won't become much better for the US of A.

re: #164 Quilly Mammoth

My prediction.

Now that Russia has entered territory that it has publicly recognized as belonging to Georgia it will be very hard for NATO to say "no" to Georgia now. Georgia will cede South Ossitia to Russian control, put a gigantic fence around it and let Russia deal with the economic devastation. Virtually the entire economy of that region centered around black markets.

They will also try and lobby Russia to get out of Abhakzia.

Sorry but there is no way that Nato will actually admit a country that could get them into anything as sticky as a real war. France and Spain will blackball Georgia now.

Read the london times piece and immediately commented to the Times that this is europes problem more that ours. Europe needs to stand up. Putin is a clear aggressor. Europe needs to supply more than retoric and pleas to the UN

Analysis: energy pipeline that supplies West threatened by war Georgia conflict

Georgia has no significant oil or gas reserves of its own but it is a key transit point for oil from the Caspian and central Asia destined for Europe and the US.

Crucially, it is the only practical route from this increasingly important producer region that avoids both Russia and Iran.

The 1,770km (1,100 miles) Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline, which entered service only last year, pumps up to 1 million barrels of oil per day from Baku in Azerbaijan to Yumurtalik, Turkey, where it is loaded on to supertankers for delivery to Europe and the US. Around 249km of the route passes through Georgia, with parts running only 55km from South Ossetia.

re: #149 quickjustice

So the Russians want more Muslims? Hmmm. More likely they want to rebuild the Empire.

My Russian source tells me it probably has something to do with Putin winning favor among the Chechen rebels, more than with helping those with Russian citizenship in Georgia.

I wonder if there may be calls from around the world for the U.S. to drill more -- we are probably the most secure source of oil in the world. Wouldn't *that* be ironic?

re: #172 SFGoth

More attacks on the BTC pipeline are probably in the works.

A Russian guy on another forum recommended these reports for background on all this, I've never heard of this International Crisis Group before:
Georgia and Russia Clashing over Abkhazia

Georgia's South Ossetia Conflict...make Haste Slowly
Georgia: sliding to Authoritarianism?

Georgia: Avoiding war in South Ossetia

Wiki describes the International Crisis Group as follows, I have no idea of the credibility of that group.
International Crisis Group

re: #166 Quilly Mammoth

Exactly. Georgia has to either keep South Ossitia _or_ join NATO. This situation forces that development.

And I guess if Georgia builds any houses in the breakaway province, they will be condemned as being the obstacle to peace... no matter how many rockets Russia fires, right? It will be the houses that are the problem. Not the rockets. Right?

re: #172 SFGoth

I wonder if there may be calls from around the world for the U.S. to drill more -- we are probably the most secure source of oil in the world. Wouldn't *that* be ironic?

My vision of the future is that in 10 years the Arabs are out of oil except for a modest supply under the control of protected Shia communities along the Persian Gulf or under the Kurds who have reached an accommodation with Turkey. The US is a major producer of hydrocarbons from newly explored deposits using improved environmentally safe recovery methods. The Europeans and Japanese buy a significant amount of their energy supply from the US. Four times as much of the energy used in the US comes from nuclear power than at present.

Wish McCain could lay out a vision like this.

Don't worry, the UN is getting, um, involved, or something:

The UN Security Council on Friday failed to reach an agreement on a Russian-drafted statement that would have called on Georgia and separatists in its South Ossetia region to immediately halt all bloodshed.

lol

re#167 forever
Bush is weak compared to Putin?
Bush is President of a democracy of long standing laws. Putin is a money grubbing, power hungry dictator who kills those who are a threat,or, percieved threat, whether they are in moscow, or London.

re: #174 JHW

A Russian guy on another forum recommended these reports for background on all this, I've never heard of this International Crisis Group before:

Wiki describes the International Crisis Group as follows, I have no idea of the credibility of that group.
International Crisis Group

Mark Moloch Brown = Soros. Remember he was Kofi Annan's factotum that was living on Soros' property?

re: #53 Forever

I'll throw myself in the mess here along with Forever

Even if Russia is really after strategic oil reserves and pipelines in Georgia or attempting to cement its hegemony over the Caucasus, it is not difficult to understand why they see this conflict in such similar terms to Kosovo.

Depending on whose script you believe: NATO began bombing Serbia in 1999 in an effort to push back Serbian aggression against and ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians... or Serbia went overboard in attempting to defend its sovereignty and homeland against an increasingly restive and violent separatist minority who soon enjoyed support from the disproportionately powerful West.

For either of these stories, if you substitute NATO for Russia, Serbia for Georgia, and Kosovo for South Ossetia, the story basically works. From a systemic perspective, either Kosovo is entitled to independence (or eventual incorporation into Albania) and so is South Ossetia, or Serbia is entitled to maintain its territorial integrity despite an unhappy minority and so is Georgia.

In an international state system as fragile as ours has become, there is a clear need for consistent treatment of these cases. While few people here believe the arguments Russia is providing for its involvement here, they, unlike us in the West, are at the very least being consistent and keeping to their word.

Russia is looking to expand its borders. It always has and has never been censured or punished for it. Putin and his lackey want to rebuild the Soviet Empire and they will use whatever ruse it takes to let that happen.

re: #179 lifeofthemind

interesting, I wasn't aware of that, thanks.

Georgia pulling 1000 of their Iraq troops out fight on their homeland instead.

Good for them.

re: #168 lifeofthemind

Sorry but there is no way that Nato will actually admit a country that could get them into anything as sticky as a real war. France and Spain will blackball Georgia now.

Actually, It is Merkel of Germany who opposed sending Georgia and the Ukraine invites. Mostly because of the Ukraine. While France and Spain are supporting pipeline projects, such as the Nabucco natural gas pipeline, which do _not_ go through Russian held territory.

Caspian oil

re: #185 Quilly Mammoth

Actually, It is Merkel of Germany who opposed sending Georgia and the Ukraine invites. Mostly because of the Ukraine. While France and Spain are supporting pipeline projects, such as the Nabucco natural gas pipeline, which do _not_ go through Russian held territory.

All the more reason to disband NATO. Let Europe defend itself for a change. F the Brits, F the French, F the Spanish, F the Germans. When the brie hits the fan and they come *begging* us to go back "over there", maybe we can knock the snot out of their arrogance at the same time we prop them up. I am sooo fucking sick of their attitude towards us which they have the luxury of because they know they can coming running and crying when somebody yells boo.

re: #82 Nevergiveup

As the world's eyes turn to China for the Olympics and towards Russia being Russia, it just occurred to me that it might be a good time for Israel to test some of it's advanced weaponry over the Iranian desert?

Ind time for the UN to do what it does best, spend lost of money, blame the US for everything and generally do absolutely nothing. After all this would not be a problem if the US hadn't forced the breakup of the old USSR.... While that last sentence is intended to be sarcasm, I'm sure most of the UN believes it to be fact.

The planned BTC pipeline, incidentally, will dwarf the size of other pipelines in the region, including those controlled by Russia.

I'm sure Russia would like to sit on a tap on the new pipeline. Remember its hardball dispute with Ukraine over natural gas?

Russia has wanted to regain some of its lost territory since the fall of the Soviet Union. This is one of the first steps. Communism is back on the rise in Russia and Putin was the leader of it. We'll probably see more soviet style like this in the future.

Perfect timing on Russia's part. It might be a good time for us tohit Tehran as well. call it a trade :)

re: #187 SFGoth

Hey........ FU2

Last time you came running, you were two years late to the party sunshine. And the krauts hadn't managed to knock the snot out of us by then, either; we were still standing, battered and bloodied, but still on our feet.

I dunno where the fuck some of you get off thinking that the love of freedom and the will to fight for it only came about after 1776.

re: #185 Quilly Mammoth

Actually, It is Merkel of Germany who opposed sending Georgia and the Ukraine invites. Mostly because of the Ukraine. While France and Spain are supporting pipeline projects, such as the Nabucco natural gas pipeline, which do _not_ go through Russian held territory.

Agreed but these do not conflict with what I said. France and Spain support pipeline deals but they are not going to support bringing anyone into Nato that could actually get them into a shooting war. I expect the fissures between Old Europe and the New Europe to widen. Hope I am proved wrong.

re: #187 SFGoth

All the more reason to disband NATO. Let Europe defend itself for a change. F the Brits, F the French, F the Spanish, F the Germans. When the brie hits the fan and they come *begging* us to go back "over there", maybe we can knock the snot out of their arrogance at the same time we prop them up. I am sooo fucking sick of their attitude towards us which they have the luxury of because they know they can coming running and crying when somebody yells boo.

I think I smell a troll

re: #186 godfrey

Caspian oil

Good link, thank you.

re: #192 Wishbone

Hey........ FU2

Last time you came running, you were two years late to the party sunshine. And the krauts hadn't managed to knock the snot out of us by then, either; we were still standing, battered and bloodied, but still on our feet.

I dunno where the fuck some of you get off thinking that the love of freedom and the will to fight for it only came about after 1776.

Relax cousin. So how are you getting along without us? The food getting any better? :-)

Tblisi is in a good position here, right? They don't really consider themselves Russian any more than they consider themselves Georgian. If the pipeline goes through as planned, they should go for independence. Let the two Powers duke it out, keep Tblisi's head down as much as possible, and then, during any cease fire, say it will be glad to consider the best offer.

re: #192 Wishbone

Hey........ FU2

Last time you came running, you were two years late to the party sunshine. And the krauts hadn't managed to knock the snot out of us by then, either; we were still standing, battered and bloodied, but still on our feet.

I dunno where the fuck some of you get off thinking that the love of freedom and the will to fight for it only came about after 1776.

Oh the love! If Guderian had had the guts to defy Hitler and race to Dunkirk, you'd have been slaughtered. We also engaged in destroyer duels with U-boats well before Hitler declared war on us, and lost boys to U-boat attacks on convoys sending you stuff. FDR couldn't get us involved earlier b/c there was incredible anti-war in Europe sentiment from our participation in the War to End all Wars. And by the way, if you'd have bothered to enforce your own Treaty of Versailles in 1936 when Hitler re-militarized the Rhine, he would have been deposed -- there was a coup ready to happen, and such a coup was ready in 1938 too, but it was deflated when Neville came home with his famous piece of paper. You Brits, as individuals, had great fighting qualities back then, but now as a political entity, sorry, there's no there there (esp. in Basra).

re: #194 lifeofthemind

You're not the first person to say that...

re: #194 lifeofthemind

I think I smell a troll

Take a shower sunshine. I ain't no troll.

re: #196 lifeofthemind

The food?......hehehe...... Sorry to disappoint mate, but that old chestnut has been consigned to the 'old but good for a bit of a giggle stereotypes' file ;)

I mean..... really...... I wouldn't know what the hell a 'beef wellington' looked like!

I could murder anything with chilli in it right now. Or a curry. Or a nice risotto.

You had to start on food, didn't you? I'm starving, but I'm playing football later, so I have to wait........feh!

re: #187 SFGoth

All the more reason to disband NATO. Let Europe defend itself for a change. F the Brits, F the French, F the Spanish, F the Germans. When the brie hits the fan and they come *begging* us to go back "over there", maybe we can knock the snot out of their arrogance at the same time we prop them up. I am sooo fucking sick of their attitude towards us which they have the luxury of because they know they can coming running and crying when somebody yells boo.

You have apparently read some history, but you haven't read it very well. NATO's most enthusiastic supporters are in Eastern Europe. Expanding NATO to include Poland, Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, the Baltics, Czech Republic, Macedonia, and so on, has been a huge diplomatic success and helped to cement those countries into the Western world. Disband NATO and there will be no counterweight to Russia's neo-imperial designs.

Charles - I like these threads that pull out the Euro attitudes, whether second hand from commenters with personal contacts with the various parties or by the ones that come out (same ones from the VB threads) with the attitudes not necessarily against dictatorships. Very good to keep reminding myself that not everybody sees it like I do and that surprising ones do...

Just a driveby, but to all those who are interested, here's a link that starts to illustrate the complexity of the pipeline situation in the area. I would hate to try to decide what political strategy would be helped by which action on what pipeline route...

Major oil pipeline projects

re: #202 Kenneth

You have apparently read some history, but you haven't read it very well. NATO's most enthusiastic supporters are in Eastern Europe. Expanding NATO to include Poland, Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, the Baltics, Czech Republic, Macedonia, and so on, has been a huge diplomatic success and helped to cement those countries into the Western world. Disband NATO and there will be no counterweight to Russia's neo-imperial designs.

Which one of those countries is on the North Atlantic? I don't mind having treaties with these countries, but let's give up this pretense that we're in a partnership with Olde Europe. New Europe Treaty Organization would be neto!

re: #201 Wishbone

All stereotypes have a kernel of truth to them. Had great food myself over there but as you indicate, it was not traditional English fare. That stuff may be still inflicted on the students at "Public Schools" but at present prices I doubt it. Don't follow what you call football. We invented something clever over here called the "Forward Pass."

re: #200 SFGoth

Take a shower sunshine. I ain't no troll.

That's not for you to say chum.

re: #207 lifeofthemind
re: #200 SFGoth

Take a shower sunshine. I ain't no troll.

That's not for you to say chum.

----------------
Since I stick around and am willing to back up my posts, I think that does not make me a troll. Bombthrower maybe, but not troll. And I'm not trolling for chum either. All this Russia stuff has made me hungry for chicken kiev.

re: #198 SFGoth

Guderian didn't and we got out by the skin of our teeth. Let's not also forget that we finished paying for a lot of the stuff you sent only a couple of years back. As for the convoys that got it here, I'll agree that there were a lot of good Yank lads got sent to the bottom protecting them and for that they deserve to be, and are, rightly honoured.

As for Chamberlain, are you seriously saying that you have no equivalent in the history of political or military fuck ups? It happens and all you can do is be thankful that you scrape by.

I also can't see why you make mention of the individual Brit's fighting qualities then, then jump to Brits as a collective political entity in the present. I may be wrong, but it seems that you seem happy to judge our individual qualities as entirely represented by the political landscape evidenced in the media and government. That's not very good, is it?

In light of that, and on a subject that seems so close to your heart, do you seriously believe that our forces in Basra were entirely unwilling to go in because, according to reports, our politicos seemingly didn't want to?

Kenneth,

Disband NATO and there will be no counterweight to Russia's neo-imperial designs.

Russia is the sick man of Europe. A disintegrating, disease ridden, and dying country that will have a smaller population than Yemen by 2050.

We have training bases in Georgia and American troops stationed there. Georgia has been heavily supported by the USA. This is a huge issue for the United States and a test of our resolve in supporting the growth of Democracy in Western Europe. If we falter on this issue there are grave long term consequences whether Barry is president or not.

China is busy with the Olympics but expect activity and rhetoric towards Taiwan to increase. In particular with 6 of our best carriers headed to the Gulf a simultaneous push from Russia, China into their interests can be a strong stress point for our other activities globally.

re: #180 zellmad

Zellmad, while I agree that there is value to ethical consistency, and I agree that there are parallels to be drawn between Kosovo and and South Ossetia, there are 2 other important factors to be considered:
1) The Serbs were seen in Kosovo, and previously in Bosnia and Croatia, to be practicing real ethnic cleansing - mass murder, mass graves, "rape camps" to defile and humiliate non-Serb women etc. Thus there was a moral imperative for the West to step into Kosovo. Despite Russia's claims today, there has been no evidence of the Georgians doing this is Abkhazia or South Ossetia. To me a consistent ethical stance regarding ethnic barbarity is more important than a consistent ethical stance towards the maintenance of territorial integrity
2) Russian involvement in South Ossetia is not to protect an ethnic minority, as was the case with NATO's involvement in Kosovo, but to subjugate Georgia in punishment for the Rose Revolution. As an extension, the subjugation of Georgia is meant to stand as a warning to Ukraine, Poland and other former Eastern Bloc countries. Indeed, the principle goal of Russia's foreign policy actions over the last decade has been the same - demonstrate that they are militarily strong and unimpeded by concern for their reputation, while simultaneously demonstrating that the West is weak and pusillanimous.
There is no lofty goal like spreading democracy, not even an overriding philosophical framework like the old ComIntern. It's simply about making others fear the Bear.

re: #209 Wishbone

In light of that, and on a subject that seems so close to your heart, do you seriously believe that our forces in Basra were entirely unwilling to go in because, according to reports, our politicos seemingly didn't want to?

I have no idea what your individual forces wanted to do. However, it seems to me that since the Iron Lady left office -- she was awesome, from this Yank's perspective -- the country as a political entity has been emasculated. Atop this site, and others like Jihadwatch, we read all kinds of absurdities going on in the UK. Does it trickle down? Have the middle and lower ranks of the armed forces been affected? I don't know. All I can say is, it sure seems to me that Britain ain't what it was, and that's a damn shame. In fact, I rather wish we had had Churchill making the grand strategic decisions in WWII rather than FDR since Sir Winston understood the Hammer and FDR was bamboozled by him. If we'd struck at the Balkans we might have avoided the Cold War in the first place.

re: #210 Dirk Diggler

Kenneth,

Russia is the sick man of Europe. A disintegrating, disease ridden, and dying country that will have a smaller population than Yemen by 2050.

LOL, and one just as Muslim!

Russia is the sick man of Europe. A disintegrating, disease ridden, and dying country that will have a smaller population than Yemen by 2050.

-DirkDiggler

. . .that still sports a massive nuclear arsenal capable of turning the (relatively) stable world as we know it into the movie Mad Max. Let's not forget that when we're hinting around about possible military intervention against Russia, on the side of a nation with whom we have no defense pact (in spite of their cooperation and friendship), and who it appears may have started this escalation by their bombardment of the capital of South Ossetia.

re: #212 macoishin
Well put. If Milosovic and Karadzic hadn't been such thugs then Kosovo would be part of Serbia today. The Russian thuggery in the Caucasus must be stopped. If they had just focused on real counter insurgency operations in Chechnya then we could have supported them. It would have been better for Russia to wash their hands of the region and get the US to beg them to help sort out the mess from the outside.

1400+ KIA, no breakdown. Russians are rolling in with armor so I suspect the defenders are by far catching the worst of it.

/considering the time elapsed, that's heavy fighting

Here's one for the conspiracy theorists out there... The CIA World Factbook updated its information on Georgia YESTERDAY.

re: #205 SFGoth

At first you said NATO should be disbanded. Now you just want to rename it? I guess that's progress.

BTW, France has just rejoined the military council of NATO after withdrawing from it in the 1960's. That's progress too. The so-called rift between the US & Europe is much exaggerated by the left who like to blame Bush for making the The Whole World hate America.

re: #219 Kenneth

At first you said NATO should be disbanded. Now you just want to rename it? I guess that's progress.

BTW, France has just rejoined the military council of NATO after withdrawing from it in the 1960's. That's progress too. The so-called rift between the US & Europe is much exaggerated by the left who like to blame Bush for making the The Whole World hate America.

No, I don't want to include Western Europe in NETO, because that would sucko. What's W. Europe going to do without us, go quasi-socialist?

re: #218 LibraryLizard

Here's one for the conspiracy theorists out there... The CIA World Factbook updated its information on Georgia YESTERDAY.

I wouldn't call that a conspiracy. This attack didn't occur in a vacuum and was not a total shock I'm sure. Whether the situation was or is action prior to hostilities is to be seen. We are not equipped to confront the Russians in Georgia currently or maybe even in the near future and could not hope to sustain a full on conflict against Russian forces who have a complete logistical advantage.

re: #213 SFGoth

I can hardly disagree with your assessment of the clout, or lack thereof, of the British political establishment on the world stage these days. What I'm essentially disagreeing with is your willingness to conflate our governments lack of political resolve with that of our people.

Go and have a look around the main British media outlets and see if you can find gushing support for this government there. It's interesting, but I can save you a lot of bother right now and tell you straight that this government is enjoying the lowest popularity rating among the populace since the recording of popularity ratings began. I kid you not. There are places in Britain that have been absolute strongholds of Labour support since time immemorial that have kicked them out in the latest by-elections. I've said it before and, since the description fits so precisely, I'll say it again: This government is the political equivalent of a dead man walking; let there be no doubt about that.

Those absurdities you mention are no less infuriating to your average Brit. Do you think we like it that any lunatic with a beard and a stone age mentality can spout death and destruction to the nation they're happy to sponge from with virtual impunity, when the same government and it's various useless departments will come down on the average, law abiding Brit like a ton of bricks if they so much as defy the order that they are seeking to establish? In short: Like shite, we do!

You're right that Britain isn't what it once was, but that's not because our people as a nation woke up one morning and decided to make it that way. Also, don't believe that our soldiers are infected by the same claptrap politics of our government. I know a few of the lads in the forces and all I can say is that I'm glad the military has them. I'd hate to think of what may happen if some of those lads were on the streets with nothing to do.

re:221 Egfrow

I was just funning around...loved that Mel Gibson movie. Would you go for 'curious coincidence'?

OT

re: #222 Wishbone

Yes, but will Cameron have a strong enough majority, and under EU directions, will it matter?

re: #38 Occasional Reader

Strange how the this is playing itself out 17 years after the fall of the USSR.

The Russians want "their" buffer states back...

Found this decent map of the Caucasus:

[Link: www.colorado.edu...]

re: #224 godfrey

I won't pretend for one minute that Cameron is going to reverse all the damage overnight, even if he himself could. All I can say is that at least it would be a step in the right direction. At the very least he could start clawing back some of our self determination from Brussels, but that's going to be a hell of a battle with those totalitarian bastards.

#218

Oh Geez... maybe I shouldn't have said anything...

Am I being watched? < looks over shoulder >

What can Georgia have been thinking? Don't they even look at what the Soviets used to call the "objective correlation of forces"? A mouse may be fearless in the presence of a cat, if it has a certain sort of brain damage. But the cat is still bigger.

For Georgia, it would have been wiser to be content with independence, and not insist on bringing back under Georgian rule the breakaway province. There are too many ethnic Russians in South Ossetia for the Russians to be indifferent to the situation, and yes, oil pipelines etc. may be involved.

Best possible outcome is a quiet return to status quo ante, before too many people get killed and tempers flare and hot words are spoken that must then be backed by fiery deeds lest face be lost.

re: #227 Wishbone

No kidding. Good luck, and I mean that.

re: #226 neocon hippie

I've been exploring the economic rather than ethnic angle. Then there's the "fear the Bear" (macoishin) theory.

I don't know, and my stomach flu ain't helping.

It's probably as simple as "you South Ossetians were firing on our peacekeeping troops, and we're not going to sit on our hands. Feel this." BAM

A street fight, iow. But no one's blind to the bigger issues involved.

re: #222 Wishbone

Those absurdities you mention are no less infuriating to your average Brit. Do you think we like it that any lunatic with a beard and a stone age mentality can spout death and destruction to the nation they're happy to sponge from with virtual impunity, when the same government and it's various useless departments will come down on the average, law abiding Brit like a ton of bricks if they so much as defy the order that they are seeking to establish? In short: Like shite, we do!

----------------
Maybe you guys need to take a page from our playbook and have a little revolution of your own! Otherwise, what's the solution to what you've described? I think serious political change is probably easier here than in parliamentary-style countries which resemble more the situation we had before direct election of senators. Western Europe is like the NFL (that's National Football [American] League) - parity: a whole bunch of teams have a shot at the Super Bowl. The problem is, the Super Bowl for you guys means the first W. European country to go Muslim. Britain, Norway, Netherlands, Sweden, and Spain - they all have a shot. (Brussels will fall apart soon.)

re #229
Gotta agree with you there. I think Georgia just committed a huge blunder with the bombardment of Tshkinavli. . . .regardless of what low level hostilities there had been with separatists up to that point.

Start putting Russians in caskets, and Russia is bound to wake up sooner or later.

More than a streetfight...

Tskhinvali reported to be in ruins from Russian bombing.

Polonium Putin™ is back!

Buckle your seatbelts: US asked to help move Georgian troops home from Iraq: official.

And if Russia's planes start shooting at them?

re: #218 LibraryLizard

My jaw is bruised a little after hitting the desk here.. but.. after looking at other countries in their "fact book" - even ones far and removed from anything - seems that the whole site was updated yesterday.

re: #167 Forever

Yeah, too bad Stalin was unavailable.

re: #235 godfrey

Buckle your seatbelts: US asked to help move Georgian troops home from Iraq: official.

And if Russia's planes start shooting at them?

It would be highly inappropriate for the US to transport the Georgian troops or their equipment. Perhaps an Air France Charter can be arranged for.

Nice to see that Vlad is bringing back some of the old soviet traditions.

re: #194 lifeofthemind

I think I smell a troll

dump the u.n and build on NATO

How 'bout them Dawgs - Ranked #1 and kicking some Ruski butt...

Look where 3/25 went on vacation in July.

[Link: www.mfr.usmc.mil...]

re: #241 Bulldog

How 'bout them Dawgs - Ranked #1 and kicking some Ruski butt...

Better get Jimmuh Carter to shout out a rebel yell and whip up those Georgia boys into a real fight.

damn yankees!

Buh bye Tbilisi.

re: #212 macoishin

While I agree with you in principle, I would be curious to better understand the views of both Georgians and Ossetians on the ground. It is generally easy to identify the overriding interests of the big guy in the arena as I think you have quite deftly, but I am not sure we can chalk up continued Ossetian resistance to Georgian rule since the fall of communism to Russian coercion alone. It seems a bit more clear that Georgia wants to keep South Ossetia as a security prerogative, but there may also be more to the story.

Also, please excuse the moral relativism, but Russia saw NATO's bombing of Kosovo in much the same light as you have identified Russia's bombing in Georgia. This perception of reciprocity on the Russian front may be as important if not more so domestically and systemically than the medium term goal of suppressing Georgian dissent and Western influence in the Caucasus.

You can bet the left's answer to ending this crisis is to scream that Russia needs to have their way.

In a region with a big power (Russia) and a bunch of little powers (Georgia and other Caucasian Republiquettes). The small republics will tend to try to minimize the influence of the Big Power (Russia) by getting other Big powers (America, Europe) involved. If the external Big powers ( America, Europe) don't provide careful support to the small powers, the small powers will fold and become satellites of the local hegemon (Russia).

It's in the best interest of America to preserve the independence of the small powers otherwise Russia will just have new satellites and look for other spots to cause trouble.

The trick is to provide support without getting to entangled in the local politics but a strong demonstration of support is required. Otherwise America loses political influence and it's all Russia in the Region.

Basically, Russia and China are doing the same to us with Cuba Venezuela and other leftist regimes in Latin America. So it's in our interest to provide support to the Georgian rights. Particularly to an ally that has even provide troops in Iraq. Otherwise the other statelets will say why support American interests (oil, commerce, etc) if America will not even provide moral support. We may as well accommodate ourselves to the Big Bear next door.

Same in the case of China and its neighboring countries. We have to support the independence of Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Thailand, even Vietnam. Otherwise China just rolls over the little countries around it as it has done in Tibet, China sea, and other places.

re: #43 Honorary Yooper

Well, the outer structures of the USSR fell, but a former KGB agent (is there such a thing as a former KGB agent?) is in control.

There is a joke in Russia that if Putin were a cashier at McDonald's, then McDonald's cashier would be the most powerful position in Russia.

Yma - there were probably links on the left to an article about the pipelines. There's an article in the Telegraph about it too.
There's an article in the Times which has a video of Russian Tanks etc for those who are interested.
Here:null

SFGoth
I'm firmly behind Wishbone on this one. I don't take kindly to your snotty remarks about my troops. You ought to know that military personel are ordered about by politicians whether they like it or not. No British soldiers could enter Basra without permission from the DEFENCE SECRETARY DES BROWNE. He is a NuLabour idiot. By the time he gave permission most of the fighting was done. Our troops were unable to come to your aid. The MOD is denying this but I'm not inclined to believe them.
If you want to insult the Fwench - feel free. They are old enemies of ours. We've spent about 800 years fighting them and the 20th century having to save them. The Fwench like to be in charge and get all the glory but don't want to actually risk anything.

Bravery awards:

null
The Royal Red Cross is the nursing equivalent of the VC.

Back in 2005 L/Cpl Katrina Hodge won a bravery commendation in Iraq. Their vehicle was overturned by suspected Iraqi insurgent. They were held at gunpoint . Katrina obviously didn't like this so she punched him and took his rifles thus saving the lives of members of her regiment. I would have to assume the others were male because they christened her *combat barbie* LOL

More here: chinook pilot (for special forces) just won his THIRD DFC (distinguished flying cross. null

More here: SAS null
More here: Military medals etc null

My links are subject to me being able to read my own handwriting *sigh* I'll post then click on the links to check.

I've checked my links and they all seem to work!

If you click on the military medals article. Check the box on the right - *related stories*. Click on the red titles and it should show the story about a soldier who won the GC (George Cross) for saving his mates by throwing himself on top of a grenade(?). He landed on it on his back and it blew his rucksack and him across a compound while they were out on a raid. Incredible story

re: #70 Honorary Yooper

Are you a Serbian nationalist?

/Just a question.

The US and UK should explain why Kosovo should be independent and South Ossetia and Abhazia should not. In all 3 cases it is US military self-interest and reaching for Caspian oil, not law. And Saakashvilli's takeover of course followed the familiar CIA-sponsored scenario a la Ukraine, Serbia, etc.

Jon Leyton, Groningen, Netherlands

Hmmmm......Co-inky-dink?

This afternoon one of the bobble heads on Foxedup News was interviewing A Global News correspondent from Tablisi(? sp), Georgia. He was describing the Russian bombing of a fort, an airport, and a military base. He was just saying something about American troops at the bombed military base.
The bobble head interrupted him at that time with a breaking alert that the Breck Girl was admitting he screwed some bimbo while his wife was recovering from cancer. What a great guy.
The B. H. did not return to follow up on the very grave report on the bombing in Georgia. And till the present time, 8;32 PM CDT, I have still heard nothing about the report.
Do any of you lizards know any more about this? It would appear to me that this is a tad more important than Edwards screwing a Camilla Parker Bowles look alike.

I just found this at Yahoo! Answers:

Open Question

I live in georegia but i dont see rusia no where not even sound but they says theres tanks should i be worrie i herd on the news that rusia has invaded but i dont see them no where wats going on

Putin is very popular in Russia. Ask any one on the streets of Moscow or anywhere in Russia. 99.8% of people will tell you they think he is very great! Can you think of any other leader in the free world with that much public approval?

Kelly's Hero's, that comment about being negative was made to Moriarty. re: #151 CyanSnowHawk

Latest news is that hundreds of ISM (International Solidarity Movement) human rights activists have left Israel and are now pouring into Georgia to stand up to Russian tanks.

And Amnesty International is putting out a multitude of press releases condemning the “hundreds of dead civilians” by the cruel Russians.

My only question:

How long before Bush gets blamed for this too?

Looking at the maps, it sure would be easier to run that massive BTC pipeline from Tbilisi right through Tskhinvali on the way to the Black Sea. Trying to bend it south, away from South Ossetia and Abkhazia, puts you into mountains. Here's a nice map from a previous thread. Look at the googlemap for a topo view. The obvious route is Baku > Azerbaijan > Georgia > South Ossetia > Black Sea. Abkhazia is minor.

Question: why doesn't Putin start building a direct pipeline from Samara to St. Petersburg? Direct access to Baltic, Germany, etc. No pesky wars.

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