Next thing you're gonna do is tells us there's no Santa Claus. You're a big meanie.

/sarc off

The Piltdown man was a far better fake.

Pseudopod!

Seemed unlikely, didn't it?

He wouldn't know "compression lines" from his own butt crack.

LOL!

re: #3 Sharmuta

Pseudopod!

That is a great pun.

You get the blue ribbon for that one.

Surprise!

Laughably fake.

re: #6 Syrah

Thanks. I'm just glad I remembered something from biology class besides "turgid".

It was faked 6,000 years ago?

The last gasps of creationist aka ID desperation. How will they reinvent themselves next? Super duper double secret intelligent sub-evolutionary guidance?

ID is dying the same death as creationism. It can't stand on its own two footprints.

That's print is actually from the movie Caveman -- the one of the left is from Barbara Bach, and the other is Ringo Starr...

re: #9 Sharmuta

Thanks. I'm just glad I remembered something from biology class besides "turgid".

That must have been a hell'ov'a biology class for that word to stick so well.

re: #13 Syrah

I had a great biology teacher- he owned a three legged cat he named Tripod.

Cretaceous Fakeprint - sounds like an Emerson, Lake, and Palmer album.

Delk and his kind really irritate me. Even as a layman, I probably understand more about science than he does. As a Christian, I don't need proof, especially his kind, to shore up my faith.

re: #11 Purple Prose

I think they're looking to panspermia next. The Raelians will have some competition.

Fauxtography !

re: #9 Sharmuta

Thanks. I'm just glad I remembered something from biology class besides "turgid".

Better turgid than flaccid...;~)

I found a fossilized t-shirt the other day that said, "Dino hunters do it with spears."

It was a size medium.

So. Case closed.

lies.....lies.....everywhere I look. Lies!
Oh what ever shall I do?

re: #18 Salamantis

Better turgid than flaccid...;~)

Depends upon the circumstance...

re: #18 Salamantis

Better turgid than flaccid...;~)

That was my other favorite word from biology class.

re: #14 Sharmuta

Sounds like he had sense of humor.

re: #21 christheprofessor
depends on if you want to be phucked or fooled.

re: #12 christheprofessor

That's print is actually from the movie Caveman -- the one of the left is from Barbara Bach, and the other is Ringo Starr...

The motto is sort of suggestive....Guess I'm perverted or something

Fake but accurate...

That's a jackalope footprint, I'd know it anywhere.

I don't know... He didn't provide any photos of his "evidence."

Heh.

/

re: #25 LoFlyer

I missed the motto -- what is it?

re: #12 christheprofessor

That's print is actually from the movie Caveman -- the one of the left is from Barbara Bach, and the other is Ringo Starr...

"Atuk zugzug Alana?"

re: #24 spikester

Phuggetabadditt!

I wonder if the museum has already paid Alvis Delk for the footprint(s).

re: #16 jaunte

I think they're looking to panspermia next. The Raelians will have some competition.

They'd have to redefine Genesis as something else, like that Genesis device in the Star Trek Wrath of Khan movie. So much for Biblical literalism.

It's the Proverbial and Dreaded La Shoepa-Carva!

Isn't there something about bearing false witness in some book somewhere about something?

Wheeeeeeee! Off Topic!

Here is the Mt Wilson Towercam, sort of early for this evening, but check in later too.

But if you look closely with this sun angle, tou can see powr transmission lines going across the mountains in the middle distance.

Oh, and you can find God in the here and now, you don't need to peer into the murky past for that.

re: #32 jaunte

I wonder if the museum has already paid Alvis Delk for the footprint(s).

They pay money for that stuff?

(I have a sack of quikrete around here somewhere . . . )

Souvenir photo reprints of Alvis and the prints:
[Link: www.mineralwellsindex.com...]
Get 'em fast...

re: #26 sammysdad

Fake but accurate...

That makes me think of a comedian who said he met a California girl who told him, "I'm not religious, but I am spiritual." To which he replied, "I'm not honest, but you're interesting."

I thought someone else had already tried this before.

re: #32 jaunte

I wonder if the museum has already paid Alvis Delk for the footprint(s).

I hope it was with Monopoly money.

Sorry to go OT so soon, but there's apparently a developing situation at the Empire State Building in NYC. Heard a few minutes ago that for reason not entirely clear elevators malfunctioned at the building, including those headed to the observation deck. I'm trying to track down this story, but so far not much.

re: #29 christheprofessor

I missed the motto -- what is it?

"Back when you had to beat it, before you could eat it..."
/ISYN

re: #41 MandyManners

What did they use for cash in the Flintstones?

One Million Years BC

re: #43 LoFlyer

Heh...

/okay, what the hell does ISYN mean?

BTW, Glen Rose, TX is the home to "Dinosaur Valley" where there are REAL dino tracks in a river. I have pics of them somewhere. I'm sure you can find them online.

re: #44 jaunte

What did they use for cash in the Flintstones?

Hard currency?

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Isn't there something about bearing false witness in some book somewhere about something?

ID would have us believe that God Himself is bearing false witness against Himself by leaving so much evidence against creation and for evolution.

re: #9 Sharmuta

Thanks. I'm just glad I remembered something from biology class besides "turgid".

I remember 'eeeyew' and 'yuck'.

My contribution for the night, John Hiatt's great "Riding with King!"

re: #42 lawhawk

Huh. Elevators are usually VERY reliable.
(architect comment.)

I wonder when jimc is gonna show up on this thread; he was the guy who was insisting that we didn't know that the footprint wasn't genuine.

re: #46 christheprofessor

Heh...

/okay, what the hell does ISYN mean?

I shit you not...

re: #49 Sharmuta

ID would have us believe that God Himself is bearing false witness against Himself by leaving so much evidence against creation and for evolution.

That's a damn fine point.

re: #54 LoFlyer

I shit you not...

For all my years here, that's a new one on me...

/ISYN

re: #27 itellu3times

You mean these guys?

re: #52 Ojoe

Agreed. Some kind of power malfunction - but apparently hit all the elevators in the building, including those for the observation deck. Still trying to source more.

re: #56 christheprofessor

For all my years here, that's a new one on me...

/ISYN

Just made it up after a beer and a couple of shots, It's variation of IANSY
/I am not shitting you. (I try not to curse on this thread, must be the drinks)

re: #55 Killgore Trout

Thanks, Killgore- I was bound to come up with something good at some point.

You do have to sort of wonder what Alvis might have been thinking.
"No one will look at this too closely... it's only a piece of evidence that will cast doubt on current scientific thinking about biological evolution... I think this masterful fake will hold up under the most intense scrutiny."

re: #59 LoFlyer

/I am not shitting you.

Well, you wouldn't shit your favorite turd!

/heh, I know you are in a good mood -- clink!

I finally found the reason you can't bring a nail file on an airplane.

John Mc Phee's time exercise
"With your arms spread wide to represent all time on earth, look at one hand with its line of life. The Cambrian begins in the wrist, and the Permian extinction is at the outer end of the palm. All of the Cenozoic is in a fingerprint, and in a single stroke with a medium-grained nail file you could eradicate human history.."

When there was only one set of footprints, that was when I was carrying you:

[Link: timesonline.typepad.com...]

Or were you carrying me? I forget...

[Link: lettertoamerica.podbus.com...]

re: #62 christheprofessor

Well, you wouldn't shit your favorite turd!

/heh, I know you are in a good mood -- clink!

Yes I am, What do you think about the Russians attacking Georgia, and how should America respond?

re: #65 LoFlyer

Yes I am, What do you think about the Russians attacking Georgia, and how should America respond?

Let 'em have Plains, but defend Atlanta.

I'm shocked. Shocked that someone would try and top Piltdown Man and the Cardiff Giant. That's a fool's errand if I ever saw one.

re: #65 LoFlyer

Yes I am, What do you think about the Russians attacking Georgia, and how should America respond?

"Say, Vladimir, you got a purty mouth."

re: #66 Salamantis

Let 'em have Plains, but defend Atlanta.

/Klink! I should of known that was coming...

re: #44 jaunte

What did they use for cash in the Flintstones?

Shells? Hides?

Delk deserves to get rickrolled for this. It's the least we can do.

Radio controlled flying Pterosaur model (video)

re: #65 LoFlyer

Yes I am, What do you think about the Russians attacking Georgia, and how should America respond?

Neither happy nor surprised, not sure there really is anything we can do about it (they aren't fully NATO yet, if I'm not mistaken -- even if they were, we'd need the Euros to take the lead, and I don't think they have the 'nads).

re: #57 Bubblehead II

You mean these guys?

Sure. Heck, even Wikipedia seems deficient on these. In the old west, that's like Montana 6,000 years ago, the jackrabbits grew so large they ran down and mated with the antelopes. Ever since, the local natives have made a living in part by selling the mounted trophies and postcards to tourists.

re: #69 LoFlyer

I don't care how happy or drunk you are, if you type "should of" one more time, I'm gonna have to prof-bitch-slap you across this web!

re: #70 MandyManners
What did they use for cash in the Flintstones?

Shells? Hides?

Stone money

re: #70 MandyManners

Clams!

Form what I have seen Putin is trying to revive the old glory and perks of communism for the communist elites at the usual expense of war and killing the opposition. It will be extremely interesting to note the MSM's coverage of events, contrasted to the negative reporting on the American occupation of Iraq.

re: #76 right_on_target

What did they use for cash in the Flintstones?

Stone money

I need a bigger purse.

re: #75 christheprofessor

I don't care how happy or drunk you are, if you type "should of" one more time, I'm gonna have to prof-bitch-slap you across this web!

Bitch slap me! What should I type?

re: #80 LoFlyer

Bitch slap me! What should I type?

You should of typed should've.... ;)

re: #77 jaunte

Clams!

In the show? I think so.

re: #81 christheprofessor

You should of typed should've.... ;)

*whack*

re: #80 LoFlyer

A hole nother kind of slap.

re: #80 LoFlyer

Bitch slap me! What should I type?

And I'm not drunk, just mellow!

Ain't informal English great!

re: #80 LoFlyer

"should have" instead of "should of"
Close !

re: #81 christheprofessor

You should of typed should've.... ;)

Now, that's funny.

/shoulda, woulda, coulda

If Fred Flintstone had to power his car with his feet, why didn't he just walk?

re: #83 MandyManners

*whack*

That was the joke...

re: #86 Gearhead

Ain't informal English great!

Shore 'nuff.

re: #81 christheprofessor

You should of typed should've.... ;)

'Should've' is the contraction for 'should have', in case you didn't (did not) know...;~)

re: #90 christheprofessor

That was the joke...

I know.

re: #89 Mich-again

Because he could coast sometimes.

I think.

Russia is trying to help Ossetia?

Fake, but accurate!

re: #65 LoFlyer

Yes I am, What do you think about the Russians attacking Georgia, and how should America respond?

I'm vague on the players and the reasons, but it's some kind of armed secession, ethnic deal, which sucks majorly on both sides.

It seems they're mostly nominal Orthodox Christians, so just what the beef is, I'm not so clear on. Something else, apparently.

My first take is that we would be on the side of the Georgians trying to reign in separatist provinces, but I really don't know. If we are on their side, and we ship them weapons, how will the Russians take it?

I also suspect it's just sort of a Russian version of our own Grenada episode, an excuse to work out on a small opponent.

re: #94 Ojoe

Because he could coast sometimes.

I think.

Yeah; his car was basically a covered skateboard with a seat.

From the BBC:
"Georgia's pro-Western government believes Russia has been fuelling the separatist conflict in South Ossetia and the country's other breakaway region, Abkhazia, as part of its attempts to stop Georgia joining Nato.

Georgia claims that its former Soviet masters in Moscow are using the separatists as pawns in a much larger political game.

The Kremlin does not want the Western military alliance to extend its reach further into the former Soviet Union."
[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

re: #65 LoFlyer

Yes I am, What do you think about the Russians attacking Georgia, and how should America respond?

Obama has already suggested everyone stop shooting and sit down and talk and check their tire pressure.

Big, big cheer for the US team.

And, thankfully, our team's costumes don't suck.

Where is the pulsing footprint?

re: #92 Salamantis

Yup...

re: #93 MandyManners

I knew you knew... (knew²?).

re: #81 christheprofessor

You should of typed should've.... ;)

I cannot recall ever reading any book that ever used the word "should've", and I read a lot. Man, I am goin' to have a rough year being bitch slapped..... PS even the spell checker didn't like it....

re: #88 Josephine

Glad you liked it... I'll be here all weekend... (well, maybe not -- depends upon how long the wine holds out).

OT: Any lizards in Denver? We just got pounded by rain. There are "feet" of water in some streets!

re: #104 LoFlyer

PS even the spell checker didn't like it....

It was a grammar, rather than a spelling, error...

/we'll let you live -- this time...

re: #105 christheprofessor

Wine? Who's hiding the wine?

And here it is my bedtime, too! Way to keep a secret!

re: #97 itellu3times

I'm vague on the players and the reasons, but it's some kind of armed secession, ethnic deal, which sucks majorly on both sides.

It seems they're mostly nominal Orthodox Christians, so just what the beef is, I'm not so clear on. Something else, apparently.

My first take is that we would be on the side of the Georgians trying to reign in separatist provinces, but I really don't know. If we are on their side, and we ship them weapons, how will the Russians take it?

I also suspect it's just sort of a Russian version of our own Grenada episode, an excuse to work out on a small opponent.

Close analogy might be West Virginia staying with the USA and not joining the CSA.

re: #97 itellu3times

I'm vague on the players and the reasons, but it's some kind of armed secession, ethnic deal, which sucks majorly on both sides.

It seems they're mostly nominal Orthodox Christians, so just what the beef is, I'm not so clear on. Something else, apparently.

My first take is that we would be on the side of the Georgians trying to reign in separatist provinces, but I really don't know. If we are on their side, and we ship them weapons, how will the Russians take it?

I also suspect it's just sort of a Russian version of our own Grenada episode, an excuse to work out on a small opponent.

The Russians want Georgia back. Putin's acting like the typical Soviet dictator. Georgia's only hope is to become a member of NATO.

re: #100 itellu3times

Obama has already suggested everyone stop shooting and sit down and talk and check their tire pressure.

He's threatening to boycott the Olympics if the Russians don't withdraw...

re: #110 right_on_target

Close analogy might be West Virginia staying with the USA and not joining the CSA.

Yeah...if we are comparing Russia to the Union and NATO to the Confederacy...

re: #97 itellu3times

I also suspect it's just sort of a Russian version of our own Grenada episode, an excuse to work out on a small opponent.

Can't say I agree with that characterization. Grenada was Ronald Reagan drawing a line in the sand against Soviet expansionism in our own back yard.

re: #109 Josephine

Wine? Who's hiding the wine?

And here it is my bedtime, too! Way to keep a secret!

I never hide it! It's always right here by my side when I post on Friday or Saturday (sometimes Sunday!) nights...

re: #114 Occasional Reader

Can't say I agree with that characterization. Grenada was Ronald Reagan drawing a line in the sand against Soviet expansionism in our own back yard.

Putin could view Ossetia as drawing a line in the sand against NATO expansionism in Russia's own back yard.

re: #111 LoFlyer

The Russians want Georgia back. Putin's acting like the typical Soviet dictator. Georgia's only hope is to become a member of NATO.

Well, that's simple enough.

Looking at Tbilisi, Georgia in Google maps satellite view. There's a pretty distinct mountain barrier between North and South Ossetia.

I now stand corrected, I will use "should have" instead of "should of" unless drunk....

re: #115 christheprofessor

Oh, okay, then. ; ) Try to savor it and make it last until Sunday.

Night, folks.

re: #114 Occasional Reader

Wasn't that Cuban (yes I know, a Soviet puppet) expansion?

re: #97 itellu3times

The Russians have claimed Ossetia as their own. They use the fact that many of those living there have Russian passports as pretext. The fact is that if you look at a map you have to wonder how exactly Russia claims this territory, which looks like a chunk was purposefully taken from Georgia right smack dab in the middle of the country.

The Georgians have been putting up with attacks against them by the Ossetians, who have been getting support from the Russians all along. When Georgian forces started to take the fight to the Ossetians, the Russians started to step in.

Where have we heard this story before...

re: #116 Salamantis

Putin could view Ossetia as drawing a line in the sand against NATO expansionism in Russia's own back yard.

I'm not saying there is or isn't an additional reason behind it, but as you say, we didn't do Grenada just so Clint Eastwood could make a movie about it.

Where are the creationists/IDers?

For those of you who have watched any of the Ken Miller videos on LGF, his book Only A Theory will cover a lot of ground you have already heard from him. However- there is still a lot of information in the book that I'm learning or otherwise find fascinating. I hope some of you will enjoy it as much as I have.

re: #122 lawhawk

Where have we heard this story before...

Where haven't we?

Sigh.

We keep thinking we're past all that, hey.

It is fairly comical that we have to spend so much time debunking such obvious fraud. Especially when real frauds (Barack Hussein Obama - oops, did I say that outloud) exist in our midst like the elephant in the room and very few want to shout that the emperor has no clothes. How many human footprints can dance in a dinosaur print?

I mixed about a hundred metaphors here, but I think you get my point.

This certainly blows holes in my Will Marshall meets Sleestack theory.

What to do now? (grumbling)

re: #124 Salamantis

Maybe they're looking for some new material.

re: #121 Bubblehead II

Wasn't that Cuban (yes I know, a Soviet puppet) expansion?

Yes, and yes.

re: #119 LoFlyer

I now stand corrected, I will use "should have" instead of "should of" unless drunk....

You should of known that, dammit.

;)

re: #124 Salamantis

Kinda hard to defend something that has been proven fake. Makes you look even more foolish.

Grenada should of been an easy target. The Cubans earned their pay during the invasion....

re: #114 Occasional Reader

Can't say I agree with that characterization. Grenada was Ronald Reagan drawing a line in the sand against Soviet expansionism in our own back yard.

Exactly...

re: #129 jaunte

Maybe they're looking for some new material.

They're still having major problems dealing with the old material, like Lenski's e. coli and artifactual retroviral DNA.

re: #103 christheprofessor

Yup...

re: #93 MandyManners

I knew you knew... (knew²?).

I knew you knew I knew.

re: #112 christheprofessor

He's threatening to boycott the Olympics if the Russians don't withdraw...

Genius. What a tough guy. That comment will sure give him stature, no?

re: #135 Salamantis

I was kind of hoping Spar Kling would find some ID reading for us, but I think you saw that diversion.

After all, boycotting a Russian (at that time Soviet) Olympics worked so well for Carter vis-a-vis Afghanistan...

/

re: #122 lawhawk

The Russians have claimed Ossetia as their own. They use the fact that many of those living there have Russian passports as pretext. The fact is that if you look at a map you have to wonder how exactly Russia claims this territory, which looks like a chunk was purposefully taken from Georgia right smack dab in the middle of the country.

The Georgians have been putting up with attacks against them by the Ossetians, who have been getting support from the Russians all along. When Georgian forces started to take the fight to the Ossetians, the Russians started to step in.

Where have we heard this story before...

Problem is, how long has Georgia been able to claim country independence? They have claimed ethnic independence for a while, but never as a country - always part of something else. I don't know all about the history of the eastern territories of Russia/Soviet Union (although I do know a goodly amount), but somewhere the precedence could lead to the same justifications to so many ethnic claims to an imagined past. Think the So West US.

Dinner time. bbiaw

Is this the Evolution thread?

re: #142 reno911

Is this the Evolution thread?

It seems to have involved into the Russia vs. Georgia thread...

re: #137 The Shadow Do

Genius. What a tough guy. That comment will sure give him stature, no?

I was just joking (a play on Jimmy Carter)...

umm...evolved...PIMF!

re: #133 LoFlyer

Grenada should of been an easy target. The Cubans earned their pay during the invasion....

Prof-bitch-slap!

Beslan is in North Ossetia.

You know, there's already a thread for the Ossetia mess:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #135 Salamantis

They're still having major problems dealing with the old material, like Lenski's e. coli and artifactual retroviral DNA.

The only problem I have with Lenski's e. coli is that they keep spiking my salad with it!

/

I love the line:

He wouldn't know "compression lines" from his own butt crack.

They said butt crack. hahahahahahaha

re: #91 MandyManners

Shore 'nuff.

Shonuff!

I gave my analysis in the last session on this, which was to the effect that it didn't look like a human footprint to begin with for several obvious, I think, reasons; and reasons why it could appear to approximate a human print, at first glance.

The other obvious flaw is that there are thousands of verifiable dinosaur prints, but only a very few suspect ones of humans, in creationist museums, which leads us to the conclusion that all non creationist "scientists" must in cahhoots with the devil, for hiding this evidence instead of making themselves the most famous people next to Darwin by revealing the truth to humanity.

re: #149 slokat

The only problem I have with Lenski's e. coli is that they keep spiking my salad with it!

/

Yeah; those citric-acid-eating buggers remove all the tang from it...;~)

re: #153 Salamantis

Yeah; those citric-acid-eating buggers remove all the tang from it...;~)

I thought you were going to cut out this name calling.........

// ;)

I faked it once. She was not impressed.

re: #155 Buster Bunny

You should have spit...

/sorry

What would go through the mind of the person making this fake?

I am curious if he was trying to convince himself with it, and could he do enough of a mind game on himself to

1.make the fake and then

2. totally blank out the memory of having made it, once it gets "discovered".

Very weird withal.

Faux footprint fakirs fool feeble faithful

Two points;
1. Even as a fake it is not conclusive, as a human could have set foot on a very old and freshly resoftened dino print, whereas a dinoprint onto a human could only come about one way, if real.
2. We know mastodons went extinct only about 10,000 years ago. We should have all sorts of mastodon-human overlays, yet strangely they are not forthcoming, probably because no agenda would be served.

it was so obviously a fake.
by a desperate person who desperately wanted it to be true.
science doesn't work like that.

re: #157 Ojoe

What would go through the mind of the person making this fake?

I am curious if he was trying to convince himself with it, and could he do enough of a mind game on himself to

1.make the fake and then

2. totally blank out the memory of having made it, once it gets "discovered".

Very weird withal.

3. Profit.

Once mud turns into sandstone, it is generally not known to re-mudify.

Gee, we humans have sure progressed quickly these past 6,000 years. wonder what'll happen in the next 6,000 years. Maybe we'll invent real soon a time travel machine and then go back to that magical time 6,000 years back from now when everything was created. Boy, I sure hope whoever does that brings along a camcorder, sure proof of that record.

Gosh, this is sure exciting, eh!

Anyone who thinks that the earth was created 6000 years ago has already taken a mental time machine back to the dark ages.

Reminds me of Piltdown man

When Piltdown man was exposed as a hoax, it stopped being referred to as evidence. Unfortunately, creationist hoaxes like the Paluxy footprints, the Calaveras skull, Moab man, and Malachite man are still cited as if they were real.

Never heard of them.

re: #167 mad doc
Some people continue to cite these hoaxes as evidence:
Malachite Man: [Link: www.bible.ca...]
Moab Man: [Link: www.fxsupply.com...]
Paluxy Footprints: [Link: www.bible.ca...]
Calaveras skull: [Link: newsgroups.derkeiler.com...]

I was not doubting you , I just have never heard of them.

He wouldn't know "compression lines" from his own butt crack.

Probably the best line I've heard all day.

The Creation Museum will wave this around until the cows come home, fake or not. I suppose if the Creation Museum is ever in a crunch for money, they can turn around and sell it to the Mormon church. Mark Hoffman could possibly be out of prison by then, and could broker the deal.

re: #44 jaunte

re: #41 MandyManners

What did they use for cash in the Flintstones?

Wasn't it clams?

}:)     [What'd they use for money in the Jetsons?]

re: #158 pingjockey

Faux footprint fakirs fool feeble faithful

... feasibly forever ...

}:)     [ ... ,photo file following ... ]

I didn't need a scientist to tell me that thing was a fake. It looked ridiculous.

Isn't it ironic that mind diseased religious nutters are always ready to apply "taqiyeh"to promote their ridiculous claims.
It reminds me of "Allah in the ice cream" and "Jesus on mars".
However I welcome more nonsense like this as each example of pathetic
chicanery only serves to substantiate their silliness.
Kent Hovind,Baugh,the discovery institute:Dinosaurs of a scale.

The comments following the link are telling. Does anyone really want "Frogger" teaching a science class or approving what does get taught?

But what about all those prehistoric villages where cleaned dinosaur bones were used as building materials for the huts? And all the dinosaur fossils with stomachs full of half digested humans? And most of all what about the Flintstones?

re: #176 J'accuzzi

But what about all those prehistoric villages where cleaned dinosaur bones were used as building materials for the huts? And all the dinosaur fossils with stomachs full of half digested humans? And most of all what about the Flintstones?

Umm...those huts were built out of mastodon bones, which humans did indeed hunt during the Ice Ages.

Just for those who didn't recognize the whole post as sarc...