Why are they even involved in this?

The word "Disco" always brings something else to mind other than an abbreviation of "Discovery."

What does pseudo-science have to do with foreign politics?

How very odd.

Wow! I was just reading this myself!

Not only are they one the Russians' side, they recently did an four part story whitewashing Russian Authoritarianism.

Things that make you say hmmmm?

What religion are these "rebels" that Russia has been supporting?

re: #5 Sharmuta

Wow! I was just reading this myself!

Not only are they one the Russians' side, they recently did an four part story whitewashing Russian Authoritarianism.

I'm getting an uncomfortable idea that they really do want to take over politics in America.

Two things: What on earth does the Discovery Institute have to do with this in the first place?

Further, given Russia's history in Chechnya and other former provinces, who is really going to give them credit for "peace keeping"?

The Evolving U.S. Position

Ironic, coming from a DI blog.

re: #7 Salem

What religion are these "rebels" that Russia has been supporting?

I don't know if these statistics address South Ossetia. But, they're Georgian stats so I reckon they include the former.

Religions: Orthodox Christian 83.9%, Muslim 9.9%, Armenian-Gregorian 3.9%, Catholic 0.8%, other 0.8%, none 0.7% (2002 census)

re: #10 Sharmuta

Ironic, coming from a DI blog.

LOL!

OK, now I'm confused.

I thought Russia was assaulting Georgia, and Georgia was assaulting South Ossetia.

How does "Russia’s brutal assault on the breakaway republic of South Ossetia" fit into this?

I'm thinking the Russians are being hypocrites on this issue. They want to be able to keep control over Chechnya, but if Georgia tries to do the same thing, it's an excuse to go to war?

re: #13 stevieray

OK, now I'm confused.

I thought Russia was assaulting Georgia, and Georgia was assaulting South Ossetia.

How does "Russia’s brutal assault on the breakaway republic of South Ossetia" fit into this?

They're kicking out the Georgians?

Do they have any choice but give Russia support? You see, I don't think Putin is really interested in the DI's agenda. It could be that lip-service is just because these people are so gutless that they don't want to oppose the powers that be.

I agree. This is strange, and a little unsettling.

re: #15 Sharmuta

I'm thinking the Russians are being hypocrites on this issue. They want to be able to keep control over Chechnya, but if Georgia tries to do the same thing, it's an excuse to go to war?

I'm glad they have control over Chechnya.

re: #11 MandyManners

I don't know if these statistics address South Ossetia. But, they're Georgian stats so I reckon they include the former.

Religions: Orthodox Christian 83.9%, Muslim 9.9%, Armenian-Gregorian 3.9%, Catholic 0.8%, other 0.8%, none 0.7% (2002 census)

A thanks! Hmmmm. That doesn't necessarily seem like a factor, then.

re: #16 MandyManners

They're kicking out the Georgians?

Makes it seem like Russia is attacking the Ossetians.

More on the author of that blog....
The Further Misadventures of Screwball Yuri Mamchur, Neo-Soviet Con Man

re: #2 shibumi

The word "Disco" always brings something else to mind other than an abbreviation of "Discovery."

John Travolta in gaudy white polyester with one finger upraised?

re: #7 Salem

I'm pretty sure they're all Christians but I think the bias is more about ethnicity rather than religion.

re: #15 Sharmuta

I'm thinking the Russians are being hypocrites on this issue. They want to be able to keep control over Chechnya, but if Georgia tries to do the same thing, it's an excuse to go to war?

It's their reflex of trying to tamp down the old bloc states.

It's not only odd, but creepy too--has a vile, evil vibe to it--Thanks Charles for bringing this to our attention

re: #22 Killgore Trout

More on the author of that blog....
The Further Misadventures of Screwball Yuri Mamchur, Neo-Soviet Con Man

Discovery Institute describes itself, however, as "a nonpartisan public policy think tank conducting research on technology, science and culture, economics and foreign affairs."

Wow. That's one helluva' portfolio.

re: #23 markie

John Travolta in gaudy white polyester with one finger upraised?

Sort of. More like a Disco Institute, aka Museum, filled with lots of music, polyester and a wax John Travolta.

/still having difficulty reconciling vision of 'Disco Institute' with the words 'Russian Assault.' Unless you mean a metaphorical assault on the Disco by Steve Martin and Dan Ackroyd as the old SNL Wild and Crazy Guys

Their fundamental scientific research has determined that that human footprint next to the dinosaur on their Texas fake find was indeed that of a lost cossack who was running away from the approaching flood waters. This was god's way of showing that the DI should collaborate with the Russians.

From DI Russia:

Gazprom Offers to Buy All of Libya’s Gas

Gazprom said it was also planning a joint refining venture with the National Oil Corporation of Libya, and accepted Libya’s offer to build pipelines to Europe from Libya, in North Africa. Gazprom and the Italian energy company Eni formed a partnership in 2006 that allowed the companies to swap energy assets, including those of Eni in Libya.

Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

re: #25 Salem

It's their reflex of trying to tamp down the old bloc states.

From Ingushetia to Dagestan to Alania to Karbardino-Karbaria to Karachay-Cherkessia to Armenia to Azerbaijan, there are a lot of ethnic rivalries.

re: #31 MandyManners

From Ingushetia to Dagestan to Alania to Karbardino-Karbaria to Karachay-Cherkessia to Armenia to Azerbaijan, there are a lot of ethnic rivalries.

Oh, and two of those are nations.

re: #29 Annar

Their fundamental scientific research has determined that that human footprint next to the dinosaur on their Texas fake find was indeed that of a lost cossack who was running away from the approaching flood waters. This was god's way of showing that the DI should collaborate with the Russians.

ROFLMAO!

I believe another lizard posted on earlier thread that the Ossetians are Muslim. Russia fighting on behalf of their Muslim/Russian compatriots?

Was it (forgive me please, I hate when someone refers to something of mine without remembering the source!) also that the Georgians are not Slavic? Are the Ossetian (Muslims) Slavic?

Does all that really matter?

But back on topic, I add my plaintive cry to the others, WHY are the disc-heads also pro-Russian-authoritarians, why why why? Presume it's just their family heritage?

Are they then also Lysenko/Lamarkians!?!?!?

re: #30 Sharmuta

From DI Russia:

Gazprom Offers to Buy All of Libya’s Gas

Things that make you go Hmmmmm.

As posted on the first Russian assault thread today, part of Putin's engergy strategy?

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

And now, back to the Olympics. It's pretty in HD. And the ads are not as horrible as in some previous years. Yet.

re: #34 itellu3times

I believe another lizard posted on earlier thread that the Ossetians are Muslim. Russia fighting on behalf of their Muslim/Russian compatriots?

Was it (forgive me please, I hate when someone refers to something of mine without remembering the source!) also that the Georgians are not Slavic? Are the Ossetian (Muslims) Slavic?

Does all that really matter?

But back on topic, I add my plaintive cry to the others, WHY are the disc-heads also pro-Russian-authoritarians, why why why? Presume it's just their family heritage?

Are they then also Lysenko/Lamarkians!?!?!?

Nothing in my research--or any I've seen here or elsewhere--suggests that the South Ossetians are Muslim. Muslims do make up about nine per cent of Georgia's religions.

[Link: www.aboutgeorgia.net...]

re: #35 MandyManners

As posted on the first Russian assault thread today, part of Putin's engergy strategy?

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Wow, looking that way.

This is in part going to be George W. Bush's legacy ... not to mention every other American politician, and even the big oil business leaders. Look at what's going on with BP in Russia right now - getting squeezed out, to one degree or another.

And NOW, back to the Olympics.

re: #22 Killgore Trout

very interesting link--thanks!

The majority of the population of South Ossetia are ethnic Russian and hold Russian passports. Georgia had subdued this region by military force. Neither side has particularly clean hands here and both have legitimate grievances.

/just sayin', the situation is historically complicated, not cut and dried, be very careful picking sides

re: #35 MandyManners

As posted on the first Russian assault thread today, part of Putin's engergy strategy?

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Yeah- I'm thinking there is more here than meets the eye.

I really wish I had the time to think this one through.

A self-proclaimed authority based on "revealed knowledge" supporting an aggressive tyrant... not really a surprise, is it?

re: #37 MandyManners

Nothing in my research--or any I've seen here or elsewhere--suggests that the South Ossetians are Muslim. Muslims do make up about nine per cent of Georgia's religions.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Posted in: Russia Bombs Civilians in Georgia

#328 Serge GoFan 8/09/2008 9:53:20 am PDT

Some date and figures MSM prefers to omit:

South Ossetia is part of Georgia;

they are Muslims (Georgians are Christians);

population of S.Ossetia - 75 000;

19th regiment of 58th Army (operating in Georgia) - estimate 10 000 troops.

And NOW back to the Olympics.

re: #43 Sharmuta

Yeah- I'm thinking there is more here than meets the eye.

The Kurds attacke the Turkish-Georgian pipeline the other day, and now this.

re: #45 itellu3times

And NOW back to the Olympics.

What's his source?

I can't help but think this whole South Ossetia thing is to help keep us off balance. I worry that the Russians (Soviets) are going to try to reclaim all their former land. The Baltics better watch out.

Oh, and the Discovery Institute suck for being associated with this crap...and all the other crap they are associated with.

WHAT IS THE REAL RUSSIA PROJECT?

The goal of Discovery Institute's Real Russia Project is to offer an accurate picture of life in Russia, promote realistic U.S.-Russia relations, and remain a credible source of information and expertise for U.S. policymakers, business leaders, media, and the general public. The project serves a vital role in educating Americans about Russia and in fostering better understanding between the two countries. An amicable and engaged relationship between the U.S. and the Russian Federation is in the interest of both countries and contributes to global prosperity and stability. Since 2005, the Real Russia Project has been lauded for its objective and bilateral perspective, one which is neither reflexively opposed to nor supportive of Russia, but which offers insightful analysis and critique helpful to political, economic, and cultural understanding.

So much for the afterglow.

WTF!?

re: #39 itellu3times

I see it a bigger, more long term that GWB's presidency. This is the result of the hyper-influence of the anti-capitalist wing of the environmental movement. In their haste to stunt energy development in America, they have forced energy production to concentrate in the ME, the third world, and the old Soviet bloc. Now the West is dependent upon those sources from ugly parts of the world.

Accidental or planned...?

Uh, Charles, as I understood (evolutionist) talk radio host Michael Savage on his show yesterday, he also sympathized with Russia in this conflict, reasoning that we are pushing them into conflict by meddling in the internal affairs of countries (e.g., Georgia) on their border and within their traditional sphere of influence.

How would we like Russia getting all cozy with Mexico? Answer: We wouldn't.

I know that you may find this hard to believe, but one's position on a foreign affairs issue, is not necessarily linked to or dependent on his views as touching evolution v. creation.

That said, I lean toward the Georgians somewhat myself.

OT: If memory serves, Joseph Stalin was a Georgian.

re: #34 itellu3times

Neither the Georgians nor the Ossetians are Slavic. The Georgian language is a member of the Caucasian family; Ossetic is a member of the east Iranian group.

I do not believe Ossetians are predominantly Orthodox Christian, not Muslim.

re: #51 stevieray

Accidental or planned...?

Dumb.

re: #53 wolfie

PIMF I believe the Ossetians are predominatly Orthodox. (not "I do NOT believe!")

re: #53 wolfie

I do not believe Ossetians are predominantly Orthodox Christian, not Muslim.

Hmmm... How 'bout this:

I do not not believe Ossetians are predominantly Orthodox Christian, not Muslim.

Otherwise, I are confused.

re: #55 wolfie

Nevermind...

re: #52 gunjam

Uh, Charles, as I understood (evolutionist) talk radio host Michael Savage on his show yesterday, he also sympathized with Russia in this conflict, reasoning that we are pushing them into conflict by meddling in the internal affairs of countries (e.g., Georgia) on their border and within their traditional sphere of influence.

How would we like Russia getting all cozy with Mexico? Answer: We wouldn't.

I know that you may find this hard to believe, but one's position on a foreign affairs issue, is not necessarily linked to or dependent on his views as touching evolution v. creation.

That said, I lean toward the Georgians somewhat myself.

OT: If memory serves, Joseph Stalin was a Georgian.

Remember, Savage supported the Serbs too. because they were Christian. Heaven forbid that those mass murderers are ever seen as 'Christian"....

re: #10 Sharmuta

Ironic, coming from a DI blog.

Well, you couldn't really argue that our foreign policies are intelligently designed, at least in most cases.

/

It looks like the Disco's will print/support anything as long as the check clears.

The Cold War (part II) was about resources. Only the lefty media & academia tries to play-up ideology of Communism vs. capitalism -- it was the same thing. Energy has no ideology. Its take it and prosper realism or sit and suffer idealism. Oh Yeah, Obama's plan to end the Age of Oil for U.S. is part of his sit and suffer program -- he is an idealist. Bush's realism was to take over the middle east and its oil, but the lefties by pressure of public crying forced (the) us into the good guy role, and so we spend money over there and suffer here with little to no benifits. Putin is just a practical type. He doesn't have a Obama or left-wing politicos to pressure him.

re: #56 Opilio

Hmmm... How 'bout this:

I do not not believe Ossetians are predominantly Orthodox Christian, not Muslim.

Otherwise, I are confused.

Its 'I IS confused"....

re: #56 Opilio

The Ossetians are not not Orthodox, if I am not mistaken and am not not remembering nothing not well, no?

I'm afraid I fail to appreciate any comparison between Russia and it's neighbors and America and her neighbors.

re: #45 itellu3times

And NOW back to the Olympics.

I don't know where "Serge" got the information that South Ossetia's population is Muslim, but that is not true. According to several sources, the Muslim population of Ossetia is around 15%. The majority are Orthodox Christian.

re: #62 coquimbojoe

Its 'I IS confused"....

That's it !

re: #1 MandyManners

Why are they even involved in this?

Because of the push for Creationism in Russia as well ...

}:)     [Not a big surprize, the same thing is happening in Poland, I have links if anyone wants to see them ... ]

U.S. Calls for Russia to Halt Attacks as Fighting in Breakaway Georgia Province Escalates

Georgia, a staunch U.S. ally, launched a surprise military offensive to retake South Ossetia and reportedly killed hundreds of people, triggering a ferocious counterattack from Russia that threatened to plunge the region into full-scale war.

. . .

Witnesses said the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali, was devastated.

"We lost our city ... The Georgians are like Nazis, they are killing civilians, women and children with heavy artillery and rockets," said 28-year-old Sarmat Laliyev, a Tskhinvali resident who had fled to Dzhava, a village near the border with Russia.

/so, who started this again?

re: #52 gunjam

I don't know where you got the impression that I care what Michael Savage thinks.

Trying to sort out the Caucasus is even more daunting than trying to sort out the Balkans.
Actually, the history of the region is much more complicated.
Makes me dizzy.

re: #52 gunjam

Uh, Charles, as I understood (evolutionist) talk radio host Michael Savage on his show yesterday, he also sympathized with Russia in this conflict, reasoning that we are pushing them into conflict by meddling in the internal affairs of countries (e.g., Georgia) on their border and within their traditional sphere of influence.

Interesting. It might be the same guy.

re: #67 Kulhwch

Because of the push for Creationism in Russia as well ...

}:)     [Not a big surprize, the same thing is happening in Poland, I have links if anyone wants to see them ... ]

These are the same idiots who are getting into bed with Islam.

Is there not a dictatorial ideology that they don't like?

Putin's strategy is to control all sources of gas going to the E.U. which he is pretty close to accomplishing now since Europe's only major autonomous source is the North Sea. With this he will be able, at need, to pressure the E.U. into all sorts of political concessions. Nonetheless, Russia's (and the West's) real problem is demography since the only parts of Russia where the population is growing are the Muslim regions. So, as the populations thins in the north and west Russia may see itself threatened by a de facto Muslim takeover and/or the jealous eyes of the Chinese looking at all that empty space just north of them. Then, as the old proverb goes, times will surely become interesting.

re: #47 MandyManners

What's his source?

CIA Factbook.

re: #70 wolfie

Trying to sort out the Caucasus is even more daunting than trying to sort out the Balkans.
Actually, the history of the region is much more complicated.
Makes me dizzy.

Same here.

re: #70 wolfie

Trying to sort out the Caucasus is even more daunting than trying to sort out the Balkans.
Actually, the history of the region is much more complicated.
Makes me dizzy.

I know that when I think of the caucuses, I think wine.

re: #62 coquimbojoe

Its 'I IS confused"....

It's "I be confused", esp in Chinese that don't do no feelthy conjugating.

Tho, "I are" is apparently an acceptable variant, viz "... and now I are one" giving rise to the early expert system R1. Probably follows from a plural subject, "I don't believe in experts, they are always screwing up, and now look, I are one."

Ads over, three girls got their gold, now for some volleyball in bikinis!

re: #66 wolfie

That's it !

In Spanish, would it be 'Soy confundido' or the more temporary 'estoy confundido'? In my case, definitely 'soy'.... ;-)

(Hola, Wolfie!)

re: #54 The Other Les

Dumb.

Yes, dumb we let it happen.

Planned and criminal on the part of those who pushed it.

re: #74 coquimbojoe

CIA Factbook.

Broken link.

re: #76 Salem

I know that when I think of the caucuses, I think wine.

Hillary thinks, "Damn that upstart!" :)

re: #69 Charles

I don't know where you got the impression that I care what Michael Savage thinks.

Oh, be careful, he's likely to be spitting all over his microphone for weeks on even a perceived slight from you! That should give you pause. Not!

Remember:

Since 2005, the Real Russia Project has been lauded for its objective and bilateral perspective, one which is neither reflexively opposed to nor supportive of Russia, but which offers insightful analysis and critique helpful to political, economic, and cultural understanding.

But just one day before hostilities broke out:

The Washington Post ...or Tbilisi Post?

NATO already dominates the European continent and Georgia would add no meaningful military capabilities. Georgia does host a section of an important pipeline, but a military or even political defense of the pipeline depends far more on the willingness of European governments to confront Russia than it does on Georgia’s participation in NATO. And living next to Russia, rather than thousands of miles away, most Europeans are understandably reluctant to start a fight that could threaten their essential interests to ensure that Georgia rather than Russia has the predominant influence over the remote and fairly small regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. I suspect that most Americans would feel the same way—after asking where they are on the map.

It seems to me this DI Russia blog has lost it's original intent- they seen quite favorable to the Russian perspective despite their earlier claims to be unbiased.

re: #81 wolfie

Hillary thinks, "Damn that upstart!" :)

Oops!

re: #80 MandyManners

Broken link.

Damn CIA, always keeping me down... where's my tinfoil hat?

re: #78 coquimbojoe

Please give me ESTAR!
I'd like to hope™ for recovery!

re: #63 wolfie

The Ossetians are not not Orthodox, if I am not mistaken and am not not remembering nothing not well, no?

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo

While I disagree with the conclusion, the author makes some good points. Particularly on States sillence and prevarication taken as a green light by other countries. Falklands and Kuwait being good examples.There were some good links posted last night directed at me when I posited Charles argument.

re: #74 coquimbojoe

CIA Factbook.

I don't think the CIA Factbook allow links to their pages.

re: #86 wolfie

Please give me ESTAR!
I'd like to hope™ for recovery!

So, you are a hopey-changer for Obama? 8-o

Wikipedia says there is a minority Muslim population.

re: #89 stevieray

I don't think the CIA Factbook allow links to their pages.

Why not? It's in the public domain.

re: #87 Opilio

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo

Literary genius!

Fixed CIA link

Hey Charles when we paste an https link your link code still prefixes http and breaks it.

re: #14 ploome hineni
ploome i am wondering if this is an attempt to wear us down, as we won the cold war.?

re: #92 MandyManners

Why not? It's in the public domain.

I dunno. They let you go in and look around, but I've never seen a working link to a page there.

re: #89 stevieray

I don't think the CIA Factbook allow links to their pages.

No, they have been following me and harassing me for years. Dan Rather used to send me coded messages nightly, but now, it is Elizabeth Dhue... They are beaming voices into my head... The voices amazingly sound like my wife telling me what to do...

CIA Factbook.

[Link: www.cia.gov...]

I searched for South Ossetia religions.

re: #84 Salem

In all seriousness, I assume you have tried wine from the Caucasus.
I've heard they make some great stuff, but have never tried it.
Do you recommend it generally or specifically?

re: #96 stevieray

I dunno. They let you go in and look around, but I've never seen a working link to a page there.

Mine works.

It seems somewhat clear if this is the case:

The reported death toll of over 1,400 is the worst the region has seen since 1992. In that year, the Soviet Union was formally dissolved, and South Ossetia and Abkhazia, both regions with strong ethnic ties to compatriots in Russia, were ceded to Georgia within their Soviet-drawn borders. After the U.S. and NATO countries recognized the independence of Kosovo in early 2008, the South Ossetians and Abkhazians decided they could also declare their independence from Georgia, which has sparked the recent round of fighting.

Russia says it has sent in troops to prevent Georgia from retaking control, thus attempting to make a grab for what it sees as territory consisting of people with sympathetic ties to Russia.

re: #98 MandyManners

CIA Factbook.

[Link: www.cia.gov...]

I searched for South Ossetia religions.

Look in Georgia. It is a much more general overview.

re: #99 wolfie

In all seriousness, I assume you have tried wine from the Caucasus.
I've heard they make some great stuff, but have never tried it.
Do you recommend it generally or specifically?

Probably, I don't remember. Took a class on wine several years back in culinary arts school.

re: #100 MandyManners

Mine works.

Hiya Mandy, how's the kid?

re: #94 itellu3times

Fixed CIA link

Hey Charles when we paste an https link your link code still prefixes http and breaks it.

I stand corrected! You can link to the CIA Factbook... with some effort!

I read the article. Obviously the author sympathizes with the Russian side of this conflict but despite that I found the article useful. He's the first person I've seen to put forward the Tit-for-tat, South Ossetia for Kosovo argument. His criticism of the "drive-by" style of the headlines is fair enough.

"Russian's respond militarily to Georgian military moves to reassert sovereignty over break-away province that has been quasi-independent since 1992 and was already occupied by Russian military forces." - just won't fit in a headline. Unfortunately some outlet can't seem to manage to get the details into the body of the articles either.

This conflict is being fought in the media by both sides. When the restart of the conflict first was reported the Wikipedia article on South Ossetia was so biased it appeared that a Russian PR man had written it. ( A Soviet style PR guy not a "truth with spin" type.) A current events warning had to be placed on it.

The region of present-day Georgia contained the ancient kingdoms of Colchis and Kartli-Iberia. The area came under Roman influence in the first centuries A.D. and Christianity became the state religion in the 330s. Domination by Persians, Arabs, and Turks was followed by a Georgian golden age (11th-13th centuries) that was cut short by the Mongol invasion of 1236.

Subsequently, the Ottoman and Persian empires competed for influence in the region. Georgia was absorbed into the Russian Empire in the 19th century. Independent for three years (1918-1921) following the Russian revolution, it was forcibly incorporated into the USSR until the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991.

An attempt by the incumbent Georgian government to manipulate national legislative elections in November 2003 touched off widespread protests that led to the resignation of Eduard SHEVARDNADZE, president since 1995. New elections in early 2004 swept Mikheil SAAKASHVILI into power along with his National Movement party.

Progress on market reforms and democratization has been made in the years since independence, but this progress has been complicated by two ethnic conflicts in the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. These two territories remain outside the control of the central government and are ruled by de facto, unrecognized governments, supported by Russia. Russian-led peacekeeping operations continue in both regions.

Russia is going to end this, on their terms, within a week, unless Georgia really wants to push their luck.

/we should just stay out of it, because there's nothing we can do to change the outcome anyway

re: #102 coquimbojoe

Look in Georgia. It is a much more general overview.

IIRC, since the Lizard posted that Muslims were a majority in S.O., I searched for that term first. I knew I wouldn't find it but, I tried.

re: #104 coquimbojoe

He's going back to school Monday. I'm thrilled. He's okay.

re: #105 stevieray

I stand corrected! You can link to the CIA Factbook... with some effort!

All I did was c/p the URL into the link thingy above.

re: #69 Charles

Savage has some points but IMHO he has become quite the professional grouch most of the time, & not good to listen to because discouraging.

Interesting- they have Pajamas Media in their blog roll.

re: #72 MandyManners

re: #67 Kulhwch
Because of the push for Creationism in Russia as well ...
}:) [Not a big surprize, the same thing is happening in Poland, I have links if anyone wants to see them ... ]

These are the same idiots who are getting into bed with Islam.

Is there not a dictatorial ideology that they don't like?

I wouldn't be surprized, but I can't say I know for sure.

}:)     [They're just not returning my calls ... ]

re: #103 Salem

Probably, I don't remember. Took a class on wine several years back in culinary arts school.

Oh, and wine-tasting was part of it. I imagine a couple of those I tasted were from the region. Historically, the Caucasus are a wine-growing region. That and the point where the early Europeans came down from Asia.

re: #114 Kulhwch

I wouldn't be surprized, but I can't say I know for sure.

}:)     [They're just not returning my calls ... ]

I don't trust them as far as I can shove them.

Some insight into the situation btw Georgia and Russia (HT-Insta)

re: #111 MandyManners

All I did was c/p the URL into the link thingy above.

Hmmm... usually when that's tried for that site, some extra stuff gets added on, and the link doesn't work.

Infernal intertubes confound me again!

re: #98 MandyManners

CIA Factbook.

[Link: www.cia.gov...]

I searched for South Ossetia religions.

That link (at the end) mentions the 220,000-250,000 refugees "displaced" from Abkhazia and S. Ossetia.
IIRC, these are ethnic Georgians who have fled or been kicked out, as Russia (allegedly) has worked to provoke ethnic "liberation" of those regions.
Georgian accusations of ethnic "cleansing" do not seem to be out of line here.
And BTW, the many Ossetians "holding Russian passports" are not by any means ethnic Russians. It is said that the Russians hand these out freely to their supporters in Ossetia and Abkhasia.

I'm not going to stick my neck out here w/ definite partisanship.......The whole thing is so confusing. Just saying that the Georgians are in a pickle and have reason to fear the Big Bear.

re: #112 Ojoe

Savage has some points but IMHO he has become quite the professional grouch most of the time, & not good to listen to because discouraging.

Hey there Ojoe. I get tired of his bitching about everything, with what I think is little backing fact or support. He does occasionally stumble on to some points. Angry and contrarian is too often painted as the purview of conservative talk show hosts, but Savage is really the only one who fits that bill.

I listen to him as little as possible nowadays.

Why Do American Conservatives Uncritically Accept Media Coverage Of One But Not the Other?

All of this begs the question: why do so many Americans, conservatives especially, who normally proclaim their distrust the media, accept it so unquestioningly on the subject of Russia? After all, it isn't as if the same biases that lead many Americans to confess to pollsters that they have Obama fatigue from so many puff profiles of the Democratic presidential candidate do not also affect coverage of foreign affairs in the U.S. In other words, a media tendency to focus on compelling personalities, like Vladimir Putin, rather than report on a complex country like Russia from the bottom up.

Same as it ever was.

You dig down far enough, you'll find the media's to blame.

Same as it ever was.

;)

re: #91 MandyManners

Wikipedia says there is a minority Muslim population.

Here's some background from a Guardian article:

The Ossetians are descendants of a tribe called the Alans. Like the Georgians, the Ossetians are orthodox Christians, but they have their own language. In Soviet times the Ossetians had an autonomous region within Georgia. The Georgians say the Ossetians cooperated with the Bolsheviks and tended to be more pro-Soviet. Their ethnic kin live across the border in the Russian region of North Ossetia, so they feel more drawn to Russia than to Georgia - and many have Russian passports.

Take it for what it's worth. I obviously don't know where the Guardian got its info from.

Some architecture from "Russian" Georgia (not the us state Georgia)

re: #118 stevieray

Hmmm... usually when that's tried for that site, some extra stuff gets added on, and the link doesn't work.

Infernal intertubes confound me again!

SHOOT YER TUBES.

re: #107 MandyManners

Yes but the question is whether that's enough reason to roll tanks and drop bombs. Apparently, the answer is yes.

I guess it's all in Huntington's "The Clash of Civilizations".

The sunsabitches.

Russia has now bombed Gori, which is in Georgia proper, not S Ossettia. This is a trial push to see what world response will be to them taking Georgia.

They need the pipeline routes through there.

re: #120 coquimbojoe

If I was an Abbot I would advise my monks not to tune him in.

re: #119 wolfie

I think the Russians need to show some decisive military victories. They have botched everything in recent memory. Their fancy new equipment gets easily negated by the Israelis in Syria, their tanks and other machines get chewed apart in Iraq with impunity, and the soldiers have gained the reputation of being a rabble over the last 20 years.

I bet in their minds the have a need to overpower someone to prove to themselves and others that they still can.

As I sift through this, it seems like this, a small portion of Georgian territory that is ethnically majority Russian, sets up a de facto independent region allied with Russia.
Russian military "Peace keepers" come in.
Georgia wants it's territory back & launches a military action to achieve it.
So the very biased Russians actually occupy a portion of another country & then claim victimhood & now intend to use overwhelming force to destroy an Americn ally.

re: #107 MandyManners

Progress on market reforms and democratization has been made in the years since independence, but this progress has been complicated by two ethnic conflicts in the breakaway regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

That same Guardian article has this to say about Abkhazia:

Abkhazia on the Black Sea coast also had autonomy within Georgia during Soviet times. Because of its sub-tropical climate, it was the playground of Soviet leaders and is popular with Russian tourists today. It has a mixed population of Abkhazis, Mingrelians, Greeks, Armenians, Russians and Georgians, and a small but significant Muslim minority. Thousands of ethnic Georgians fled their homes in Abkhazia during the civil war at the beginning of the 1990s and now live as refugees in Tbilisi and Moscow.

The heck? Shouldn't we be reluctantly supporting the Russians here? They might be brutal in their way of fighting, but they've been driving out the Georgians and stopping the shelling that has claimed over 1600 lives now. Unless they of course have been doing the same and I'm not aware of it.

re: #55 wolfie

PIMF I believe the Ossetians are predominatly Orthodox. (not "I do NOT believe!")

Jeez! Just as it was all starting to make a little sense to me!

re: #106 monumentlizard

Yes. I don't know if I'd call a 24 yr-old whipper-snapper an expert in anything, but the guy does present a good pro-Russian case.
I'm not buying it, not by a long shot, but it worth reading and digesting.
And as you said, it does bring up the awkward If-Kosovo-Why-Not-Elsewhere? argument.

re: #116 MandyManners

Heck, I wouldn't trust them half that far.

}:)     [Not at all is pretty much my watchword with them.]

re: #119 wolfie

That link (at the end) mentions the 220,000-250,000 refugees "displaced" from Abkhazia and S. Ossetia.
IIRC, these are ethnic Georgians who have fled or been kicked out, as Russia (allegedly) has worked to provoke ethnic "liberation" of those regions.
Georgian accusations of ethnic "cleansing" do not seem to be out of line here.
And BTW, the many Ossetians "holding Russian passports" are not by any means ethnic Russians. It is said that the Russians hand these out freely to their supporters in Ossetia and Abkhasia.

I'm not going to stick my neck out here w/ definite partisanship.......The whole thing is so confusing. Just saying that the Georgians are in a pickle and have reason to fear the Big Bear.

Russia helped the Abkazians fix their railroad recently. They supposedly left on 8/2/08.

SUKHUMI, Georgia (Reuters) - The last of 400 Russian soldiers sent by Moscow to repair a railway in Georgia's rebel region of Abkhazia began to pull out on Wednesday, ending a deployment which angered Tbilisi and its Western allies.

Loudspeakers played music from a brass band and children handed out flowers and Abkhazian flags to Russian soldiers at the opening ceremony of the 54 km (33 mile) railway line.

"It's certain that all the personnel and all the equipment will be sent away from here," the Russian commander, Lieutenant-General Sergei Klimets, told reporters after handing out medals to the soldiers.

SNIP

Various ethnic groups with various customs speaking various languages at odds with each other for thousands of years only points up the grand experiment and exception the US has developed into. Little wonder we're the New World. Thank God I live here.

re: #123 Opilio

Take it for what it's worth. I obviously don't know where the Guardian got its info from.

It's a regular Charley Foxtrot.

re: #126 itellu3times

Yes but the question is whether that's enough reason to roll tanks and drop bombs. Apparently, the answer is yes.

I guess it's all in Huntington's "The Clash of Civilizations".

I have no idea.

If you look to the South you can see part II of this shaping up with another "breakaway" state/region fought over by two countries -- Nagorno / Karbahk between Azerbaijan and Armenia... Cross border shooting there has heated up the past few months as well.

re: #127 Thanos

The sunsabitches.

Russia has now bombed Gori, which is in Georgia proper, not S Ossettia. This is a trial push to see what world response will be to them taking Georgia.

They need the pipeline routes through there.

The Kurds attacked the Georgian-Turkish pipeline the other day.

ANKARA (AFP) - Separatist Kurdish rebels have claimed responsibility for a blast in eastern Turkey that cut oil flow through the Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan (BTC) pipeline, according to an agency close to the rebels.

The separatist Kurdistan Workers' Party (PKK) said the explosion was "an act of sabotage" by its militants, details of which would be revealed later, according to the report, seen on the website of the Firat news agency.

SNIP

Coincidence?

re: #115 Salem

Interesting stuff! I wonder if they brought wine-making to Greece & the Mediterranean? (Day-dreaming speculation!)
I do know that the Greeks had a lot of legends about magic potions from Colchis and that area............not to mention the Golden Fleece being there.

Since I know nothing about the Discovery Institute I checked their web page. This is part of their mission statement:

Current projects explore the fields of technology, science and culture, reform of the law, national defense, the environment and the economy, the future of democratic institutions, transportation, religion and public life, government entitlement spending, foreign affairs and cooperation within the bi-national region of "Cascadia." The efforts of Discovery fellows and staff, headquartered in Seattle, are crucially abetted by the Institute's members, board and sponsors.

Is this the Discovery Institute? If so, are they affiliated with this? Someone--please enlighten me.

The Republic of Cascadia

/wtf?

re: #130 opnion

As I sift through this, it seems like this, a small portion of Georgian territory that is ethnically majority Russian, sets up a de facto independent region allied with Russia.
Russian military "Peace keepers" come in.
Georgia wants it's territory back & launches a military action to achieve it.
So the very biased Russians actually occupy a portion of another country & then claim victimhood & now intend to use overwhelming force to destroy an Americn ally.

I think that pretty much sums it up.

I do think that the authors dismissive attitude toward any suggestion that Russia may wish to reconstitute a smaller Soviet Union is naive..
Putin is a careerist KGB guy. They hate to lose. He has been moaning for years about the break up of the Soviet Union.

re: #131 Opilio

I wonder how the Georgians are treated in Moscow.

Ehm. Georgia started the war by bombing the sleeping civilians in South Ossetie. Russia reacted, strongly.

Georgia is dragging the world into another useless conflict by bragging that they are allies with the US of A. Well good for them, you guys aint gonna do a damn thing.

When Russian tanks and troops poured into the separatist Georgian province of South Ossetia yesterday, it was not, as Russian President Dmitry Medvedev said, part of a “peacekeeping mission.” It was part of an imperialist mission whose undeclared goal is to reabsorb the whole of Georgia–West-leaning Georgia with its critical oil pipeline supplying energy to an increasingly thirsty Europe–into mother Russia.

[Link: pajamasmedia.com...]

re: #142 MandyManners

|I seriously doubt it's coincidence. This is hardball geopolitical push to pin down energy options.

re: #144 twincitiesgirl

Since I know nothing about the Discovery Institute I checked their web page. This is part of their mission statement:

Current projects explore the fields of technology, science and culture, reform of the law, national defense, the environment and the economy, the future of democratic institutions, transportation, religion and public life, government entitlement spending, foreign affairs and cooperation within the bi-national region of "Cascadia." The efforts of Discovery fellows and staff, headquartered in Seattle, are crucially abetted by the Institute's members, board and sponsors.

Is this the Discovery Institute? If so, are they affiliated with this? Someone--please enlighten me.

The Republic of Cascadia

/wtf?

WTF?

re: #150 Thanos

|I seriously doubt it's coincidence. This is hardball geopolitical push to pin down energy options.

Yep. This didn't spring forth from Zeus' head the other day.

bbl

re: #144 twincitiesgirl

Yeah that's them.

It reads as if it were pushed out of the Kremlin. Every single Russian talking point is present and accounted for.

re: #124 Ojoe

Some architecture from "Russian" Georgia (not the us state Georgia)

The country would seem to breath-takingly beautiful, and the old churches and monasteries likewise. I'd love to go there some day.

re: #143 wolfie

Interesting stuff! I wonder if they brought wine-making to Greece & the Mediterranean? (Day-dreaming speculation!)
I do know that the Greeks had a lot of legends about magic potions from Colchis and that area............not to mention the Golden Fleece being there.

I don't rightly recall, but I think it might have moved the other direction from Egypt.

re: #122 Cognito

Same as it ever was.

You dig down far enough, you'll find the media's to blame.

Same as it ever was.

;)

Interesting statement, but it seems that most of the bad has proven to be true when dealing with the Russian/Soviets. Despite the presses best efforts and Pulitzer prizes, the horrors of the Soviet experiment were laid bare. It is hard to erase 80 years of ingrained news of famines, bombs shaped like toys, millions dead, fomented strife around the world, strategic land grabs for geopolitical advantage (eg. Polisario Guerrillas in Southern Morocco, ANC in South Africa, Sandinistas in Nicaragua, North Vietnamese, the Straits of Malacca, etc etc etc). After behaving as a bad actor for the better part of a century peoples' memories are long. The media is not to blame for Russian/Soviet agression. They are to blame for their complicity in trying to cover it up. Fortunately the magnitude of the horrors were impossible to hide. (Yes, I think they would have do so if possible).

re: #141 Thanos

Yep, and here's a map with the current conflict almost right on the northern border between Turkey and Armenia.

re: #129 coquimbojoe

Good point............and a scary thought.

Too bad Lord Obama is on vacation.

/surely he could travel to the region, stride onto the battlefield, make the new Sign of the Lawgiver, and the hostilities would immediately cease

re: #99 wolfie

In all seriousness, I assume you have tried wine from the Caucasus.
I've heard they make some great stuff, but have never tried it.
Do you recommend it generally or specifically?

Kiss French.
Drink Californian.

It dawned on me why the DI would have a Russian blog, and are working in Russia- they obviously are working with Christians in the west to push creationism, and we've learned they're also working with Turkish creationists, so why wouldn't they target the largest Eastern Orthodox population? Nice trifecta they've got going.

[Link: www.eurasianet.org...] maybe helpful?

I hope that nobady says anything lame , like will this hurt Geogias chances in the Southeast Conference this year? I know, I won't.

re: #158 solomonpanting

Yep, and here's a map with the current conflict almost right on the northern border between Turkey and Armenia.

Not to mention a spit and a stone's throw straight shot to Mosul.

re: #148 Forever

Ehm. Georgia started the war by bombing the sleeping civilians in South Ossetie. Russia reacted, strongly.

Georgia is dragging the world into another useless conflict by bragging that they are allies with the US of A. Well good for them, you guys aint gonna do a damn thing.

Please provide a link to that information. If that is true it would be great to have that information. I know that my knee jerk reaction is to think the Russians are misbehaving, but I don't doubt that there is more information to be had.

re: #138 solomonpanting

Various ethnic groups with various customs speaking various languages at odds with each other for thousands of years only points up the grand experiment and exception the US has developed into. Little wonder we're the New World. Thank God I live here.

And thank God at least some of us are fighting tooth and nail to keep the left from turning us into a cesspool of ethnic rivalry and hatred.
Multi-culturalism, UGH.

There is nothing that would prevent the proto-Etruscans from deveping grape wine independently. They likely had mead. Quite the herbalist in their own right.

re: #58 coquimbojoe

Remember, Savage supported the Serbs too. because they were Christian. Heaven forbid that those mass murderers are ever seen as 'Christian"....

Actually, Savage was correct about the Serbs, as well. The Kosovars have been destroying Christian places of worship in gratitude for the independence NATO gave them. The MSM is silent on this unpleasant truth, however.

re: #130 opnion

As I sift through this, it seems like this, a small portion of Georgian territory that is ethnically majority Russian, sets up a de facto independent region allied with Russia.
Russian military "Peace keepers" come in.
Georgia wants it's territory back & launches a military action to achieve it.
So the very biased Russians actually occupy a portion of another country & then claim victimhood & now intend to use overwhelming force to destroy an Americn ally.

a small portion of Georgian territory that is ethnically majority Russian, sets up a de facto independent region allied with Russia. Check

I think you are missing a couple of key points in your chronology.

Russian military "Peace keepers" come in.
Check

Add - The armed Ostettians bombard the Gergian homeland - requiring response

Georgia wants the bombing to stop and needs to regain control of the lawlessness in the area. It it's territory back & launches a military action to achieve it.

Added - The Georgians are initially successful, but it is a temporary victory as the Russians counterattack with overwhelming superiror force to defend their citizens in Georgia...(sor of like the US invading the UK to defend Madonna).

So the very biased Russians actually occupy a portion of another country & then claim victimhood & now intend to use overwhelming force to destroy an Americn ally.
Check

Both sides blame the other for the Gali explosion. Many Georgian officials believe that Russia, which serves the de facto Abkhaz state as both peacekeeper and protector, somehow had a role in the explosion..[Link: www.eurasianet.org...] i am woefully ignorant here.

re: #162 Sharmuta

they obviously are working with Christians in the west to push creationism, and we've learned they're also working with Turkish creationists, so why wouldn't they target the largest Eastern Orthodox population?

Russians learned to be willfully ignorant under the Soviet regime (much the same as most of the Middle East under Islam), so the Creationist/ID push will be a lot easier there.

re: #148 Forever

Ehm. Georgia started the war by bombing the sleeping civilians in South Ossetie. Russia reacted, strongly.

Georgia is dragging the world into another useless conflict by bragging that they are allies with the US of A. Well good for them, you guys aint gonna do a damn thing.

SO Russian stooges attack Georgia from Ossetia, escalating their attacks over a couple weeks. Georgia sends in its military to stop the attacks. A Russian armored and infantry force amazingly appears the SAME DAY and attacks Georgia. You show up backing the Russians, and gloat about the US isn't able to do a damn thing.

Go soak your head in a sewer.

re: #144 twincitiesgirl

The Republic of Cascadia

/and people take these fruitcakes seriously?

re: #160 Killian Bundy

Too bad Lord Obama is on vacation.

/surely he could travel to the region, stride onto the battlefield, make the new Sign of the Lawgiver, and the hostilities would immediately cease

If he would only do a "Go to Meeting" with the leadership of both sides.
In that way, he would not have to miss a luau or other part of his vacation & could still work his magic.

re: #148 Forever

Ehm. Georgia started the war by bombing the sleeping civilians in South Ossetie. Russia reacted, strongly.

Georgia is dragging the world into another useless conflict by bragging that they are allies with the US of A. Well good for them, you guys aint gonna do a damn thing.

That is not true. That's like saying that the Mexicans are picking a fight with the USA because of violence in Tiajuana. The Russians choose this fight.

i wish i knew more . but off the top of my head i believe Georgia is OUR allie, ( and important enough to try to protect them and euro by offering defense tools, and as such don't we have an obligation to assist? g-d i hope i'm wrong

re: #42 Killian Bundy

The majority of the population of South Ossetia are ethnic Russian and hold Russian passports. Georgia had subdued this region by military force. Neither side has particularly clean hands here and both have legitimate grievances.

/just sayin', the situation is historically complicated, not cut and dried, be very careful picking sides

Not so: The majority of Ossetia are ethnic Ossetians (66%) with the next biggest part being ethnic Georgians(31%). Virtually all the ethnic Russians left in 1991. What has happened is that Russia issued passports to the ethnic Ossetians.

re: #161 debutaunt

Kiss French.
Drink Californian.

Not being a wine expert, I DO usually drink Californian....because I go for the cheapest stuff I like.
When I want to spent mucho dinero on a wine, I do not look for stuff from France. I look for stuff from VIRGINIA !

re: #164 opnion

I hope that nobady says anything lame , like will this hurt Geogias chances in the Southeast Conference this year? I know, I won't.

Let's hope the Russians - unlike Sherman - spares Atlanta

re: #178 willowone

i wish i knew more . but off the top of my head i believe Georgia is OUR allie, ( and important enough to try to protect them and euro by offering defense tools, and as such don't we have an obligation to assist? g-d i hope i'm wrong

If there is a quiz at the end of this thread, I'm so being kicked out.

The BBC has raw footage of the scene in Gori after the strike.

re: #175 Killian Bundy

You don't want to know the long term goal. I think I'm beginning to figure some of that out. Too soon to say though.

Disgraceful and outrageous!

Have tried to post this underneath:

The Russian ambassador couldn't have put it better himself.
Why did the Georgians attack S Ossetia? Did it have something to do with FSB men running the province, the 1000 military 'peacekeepers' or the provision of Russian passports and citizenship to vast numbers of subjects of another sovereign nation. If there are double standards being used it seems Russia is the main guilty party - would they allow Chechnyans or Dagestanis to behave the way towards Russia in the they have encouraged the South Ossetians and Abkhazians to secede from Georgia? I think not!
Russia has fomented and timed this perfectly, and impulsively Sakashvilli has fallen right into Putin's snare, while the West slumbers on.
Abkhazian and S Ossetian independence are now all but certain, whatever you claim or Bush and Rice proclaim.

Strolling through the Disco Insititute's links, I found this, which counters the "myth" that Putin is a former KGB agent who is suppressing opposition and accumulating power. Apparently that is a myth because the KGB no longer exists and all Russians hate the other political parties. And besides that, Putin isn't interested in power.

If Putin were a cashier at McDonald's, the most powerful position in Russia would be cashier at McDonald's.

re: #182 debutaunt

haha as i am . but we'll learn quickly i'm sure! even if they make us stay off and lurk : }

Wait a second, Russia blog supports Russia?

What's on page 2?

re: #171 Deafdog
Yup

re: #186 kevinmumaw
wow just wow! a myth is it

re: #170 gunjam

Actually, Savage was correct about the Serbs, as well. The Kosovars have been destroying Christian places of worship in gratitude for the independence NATO gave them. The MSM is silent on this unpleasant truth, however.

Savage wasn't 'right' about the Serbs. Savage ignored what lead up to the fighting and the Serbian atrocities. He seemed to excuse them in the name of keeping the Muslims in check. I never heard him condemn them. He also thought we should have put Saddam back in power. Savage is an idiot.

I don't think the Kosovars have been acting well at all, but it was Milosivic and his horrible wife that got the ball rolling on the blood shed in that war. The Serbs started it. The Serbs acted as evilly as the Germans in WW2. Are the Kosovars' hands clean? Not at all. Should we expend any men and materiel there? Never again. The Kosovars bad behavior doesn't retroactively make Savage a sage.

re: #177 Deafdog

That is not true. That's like saying that the Mexicans are picking a fight with the USA because of violence in Tiajuana. The Russians choose this fight.

Just as the Americans choose their fights. But of course theirs are always legitimate. ^_^

re: #169 pat

There is nothing that would prevent the proto-Etruscans from deveping grape wine independently. They likely had mead. Quite the herbalist in their own right.

Indeed.
Things don't always come from "someplace else!"

re: #165 galloping granny

Not to mention a spit and a stone's throw straight shot to Mosul.

Also, earlier this week I heard an interview (can't remember if it was on Prager's or Medved's show) whereby the interviewee suggested the Georgia region is a potential outlet for an oil pipeline that would skirt Russian control.

re: #180 wolfie

Not being a wine expert, I DO usually drink Californian....because I go for the cheapest stuff I like.
When I want to spent mucho dinero on a wine, I do not look for stuff from France. I look for stuff from VIRGINIA !

Kiss French.
Drink Californian.
Splurge Virginian.

I need to update my t-shirt.

re: #174 Shay4l

SO Russian stooges attack Georgia from Ossetia, escalating their attacks over a couple weeks. Georgia sends in its military to stop the attacks. A Russian armored and infantry force amazingly appears the SAME DAY and attacks Georgia. You show up backing the Russians, and gloat about the US isn't able to do a damn thing.

Go soak your head in a sewer.

At least I don't need to become personal.

sorry if this was already posted

Analysis: why the Russia-Georgia conflict matters to the West

Blegh. Missed " //// " in my last post.

re: #177 Deafdog

That is not true. That's like saying that the Mexicans are picking a fight with the USA because of violence in Tiajuana. The Russians choose this fight.

The Russians wanted a pretext to settle the issue.
Georgia at least from what I can tell is in the right, but they are badly outgunned.

re: #179 Quilly Mammoth

Not so: The majority of Ossetia are ethnic Ossetians (66%) with the next biggest part being ethnic Georgians(31%). Virtually all the ethnic Russians left in 1991. What has happened is that Russia issued passports to the ethnic Ossetians.

Ethnic was probably the wrong word.

/the majority is politically more sympathetic to Russia than to Georgia

re: #171 Deafdog

Actually, I don't think South Ossetia has that many ethnic Russians.
IIRC, the vast majority of those that hold Russian passports are ethnic Ossetians. (Not even Slavic.)

The Russians, it would seem, made them "Russians" by giving them passports. Has nothing to do w/ language or ethnicity.

The bad thing about the Azerbaijan/ Armenia Nagorno/Karbahk and the Georgia / S Ossettia / Russia warfare we are seeing is that there are several interests, and several sides. This is going to be bloody hell for years to come if things don't calm fast. Iran is destabilizing in both cases with Hezbollah / Qods operatives, PKK and the Kurds are there, the Turks have interests, the Russians have interests and of course even the Chinese are playing a subtle role.

re: #184 Thanos

You don't want to know the long term goal. I think I'm beginning to figure some of that out. Too soon to say though.

And you think they have any prospect of accomplishing these "goals"?

/at best, they're a lunatic fringe group

re: #196 Forever

You get personal every time you post your anti-American BS. Just out of curiosity, if I may ask, from what shithole did you spew?

re: #194 solomonpanting

Also, earlier this week I heard an interview (can't remember if it was on Prager's or Medved's show) whereby the interviewee suggested the Georgia region is a potential outlet for an oil pipeline that would skirt Russian control.

I was actually thinking that it looked like a pretty easy step to direct Russian-US confrontation in Iraq. Go look at the map. Notice where Iran is - and remember it is the Russians that are helping build that Iranian nuke plant. Looks pretty dicey to me.

This is a very interesting thread, but I have to go get a life outside...

Bye all!

re: #178 willowone

Georgia HAS been a steadfast ally in Iraq. They've had 2000 troops there fighting with us for years.

re: #174 Shay4l

SO Russian stooges attack Georgia from Ossetia, escalating their attacks over a couple weeks. Georgia sends in its military to stop the attacks. A Russian armored and infantry force amazingly appears the SAME DAY and attacks Georgia. You show up backing the Russians, and gloat about the US isn't able to do a damn thing.

Go soak your head in a sewer.

That armored brigade from the 58th Russian Army, aka the Butchers of Chechnya, would not have been prepared to move out across the mountains in a moment's notice. They were obviously prepared for this. If they had been forced to move into Georgia on a moments notice, half the brigade would have broken down in the mountains. This was planned, by Putin, and executed by his poodle (ha, where have I heard that before?) Medeved.

I've trained with several army officers from the former Soviet countries over the years, Moldova, Belarus, Lithuania, Georgia, Ukraine...one thing they have in common, their hatred of Russians. I can see why. If we don't support our allies, then we suck.

re: #192 Forever

Just as the Americans choose their fights. But of course theirs are always legitimate. ^_^

If you are referring to the Spanish America War or the the Mexican American War, then you have a point. But those were both so 19th centrury. So what's your relevance?

If you are referring to Iraq or Afghanastan, I think you are very wrong. America rarely chooses its fights. They are usually left doing the dirty work for the democracies...hence, the love/hate relatinship with the world.

I like a nice dry Cab, myself. But when I'm eating out I usually just order a coke.

Anyway, here's a google search of wine history. Seems wine can be traced back to Mesopotamia, but since wine is so easy to stumble upon accidentally, the Greek tradition might be independent. Regardless, it was the Romans that gave wine it's greatest ancient technological refining and propagation.

re: #185 ebed_melech

That's just about the way it looks to me.
Not good.

re: #200 Killian Bundy

Ethnic was probably the wrong word.

/the majority is politically more sympathetic to Russia than to Georgia

So are you in favor of giving the Southwest to Mexico because a lot of people there feel close ties to Mexico? What if Mexico started handing out Mexican Passports to anyone of Hispanic descent?

Oops! Google: wine history

re: #165 galloping granny

Not to mention a spit and a stone's throw straight shot to Mosul.

And, Tabriz.

re: #204 christheprofessor

You get personal every time you post your anti-American BS. Just out of curiosity, if I may ask, from what shithole did you spew?

Making something like that personal to you, tells me more about you than about me.

Your bad self-temper is similar to that one of the Georgian president. Cousins perhaps?

Oh, I am from the shithole called Amsterdam.

re: #207 wolfie

Georgia HAS been a steadfast ally in Iraq. They've had 2000 troops there fighting with us for years.

Yes they have & now the are asking the U.S to assist in getting their troops back home to defend against Russia.
This is a real tough situation for the U.S. This is an ally & a very good one.

re: #208 kevinmumaw

Can't help but agree the contrast between Russian action and bleating Western inaction is painfully obvious to the whole world. Though I'm afraid us Brits are too weak to act here, and I doubt Bush will put his neck out now.
Feeding the crocodile Churchill would have called it.

re: #203 Killian Bundy

See my previous post, it's Saturday night and I have a crappy keyboard on the comp I"m at, missed the slash.

Saw a silly show on the Koran on NatGeo Channel today. Explained how Muslims graciously saved Greco-Roman literature for Europe. Implied that the Muslim occupation and rape of Egypt , then part of Byzantium, might have been a blessing to science, etc. Writers too stupid to grasp Byzantium existed until the 1400s, after the age of enlightenment had begun and Byzantium lit was no further away that a short boat trip to Greece. Same place the Muslims stole them from.

re: #170 gunjam

Actually, Savage was correct about the Serbs, as well. The Kosovars have been destroying Christian places of worship in gratitude for the independence NATO gave them. The MSM is silent on this unpleasant truth, however.

Proof, please.

re: #195 debutaunt

LOL !

re: #205 galloping granny

I was actually thinking that it looked like a pretty easy step to direct Russian-US confrontation in Iraq. Go look at the map. Notice where Iran is - and remember it is the Russians that are helping build that Iranian nuke plant. Looks pretty dicey to me.

The entire area is a powder keg. Given the situation in Iran, this could portend a future US/Russian conflict there as well.

re: #215 Forever

Oh, I am from the shithole called Amsterdam.

Thanks, that explains it.

Please click my avatar -- there's a message there for you.

The Russians have been bating the water while planning this expedition. The timing is suspect. Did the Russians do something covertly to instigate the Georgian attack. Regardless, the Russian counter attack was too strong a response. That constitutes a dangerous excalation.
The 2000 georgian troops in Iraq should be on a transport right now. With stinger missles and anti-tank weapons in hand. This is russian roulette. Which army will back down first.
We can offer support. The EU's will need to show solidarity with Georgia.
What's the odds Europe will act?

The real Cascadia associated with DI is all about mass transport in the Pacific NW. That was how DI and co. got $$$$$$$$ from the Gates foundation, along with advocating for MS patent rights in Europe etc.

re: #201 wolfie

Actually, I don't think South Ossetia has that many ethnic Russians.
IIRC, the vast majority of those that hold Russian passports are ethnic Ossetians. (Not even Slavic.)

The Russians, it would seem, made them "Russians" by giving them passports. Has nothing to do w/ language or ethnicity.

I did not mean to imply that. As far as I can tell, Ivan is an illegitimate aggressor here.

re: #202 Thanos

Geepers! If we follow the multi-culturalist lead, why, someday WE can have fun like that , too! Right here in the USA!

re: #224 littleO

We can offer support. The EU's will need to show solidarity with Georgia. What's the odds Europe will act?

I'd say slim to none if Forever is representative of Euro sentiments.

re: #227 wolfie

Geepers! If we follow the multi-culturalist lead, why, someday WE can have fun like that , too! Right here in the USA!

Yep, every side is trying to leverage every "ism" they can, including tribal nationalism.

re: #225 Thanos
Gaaahh! Those hosers. They are over on the wet side of the Cascades and influence stuff over here on the dry side. Goddamn I-5 corridor from Portland to Vancouver Canada.

re: #4 Killgore Trout

How very odd.

Not really, when you think of it.

The Disco people call themselves conservative but I believe they're closer to Rushdoony than they pretend.

re: #227 wolfie

Geepers! If we follow the multi-culturalist lead, why, someday WE can have fun like that , too! Right here in the USA!

We have to worry about a break away province loyal only to Bolivia....

re: #204 christheprofessor

You get personal every time you post your anti-American BS. Just out of curiosity, if I may ask, from what shithole did you spew?

I hope that this poster is a sock for Just My View. I don't always check the name before I read the post and it'll just make it that much harder to skip over and ignore the anti-US creeps.

re: #223 christheprofessor

Thanks, that explains it.

Please click my avatar -- there's a message there for you.

You being an ignorant citizen of the US of A explains a lot to me either.
Have a nice day and I hope you will burn from the inside seeing the US of A and the EU holding back and letting Russia have its way.

re: #212 Quilly Mammoth

So are you in favor of giving the Southwest to Mexico because a lot of people there feel close ties to Mexico? What if Mexico started handing out Mexican Passports to anyone of Hispanic descent?

No, I'm just stating a fact. In any case, it really doesn't matter what you or I think, because Russia is going to win this argument by this time next week and there's nothing we can do about it.

/by the way, Mexico has consulates all over the U.S. handing out Consular ID Cards like candy to Mexican illegal immigrants

re: #232 coquimbojoe

We have to worry about a break away province loyal only to Bolivia....

Azatlan!

re: #216 opnion

Yes they have & now the are asking the U.S to assist in getting their troops back home to defend against Russia.
This is a real tough situation for the U.S. This is an ally & a very good one.

We must at least help them return their men home.
I don't see any honorable way out of doing that much for them.
Beyond that, I don't know.

Sensing a block in 5, 4, 3,...

re: #201 wolfie

Actually, I don't think South Ossetia has that many ethnic Russians.
IIRC, the vast majority of those that hold Russian passports are ethnic Ossetians. (Not even Slavic.)

The Russians, it would seem, made them "Russians" by giving them passports. Has nothing to do w/ language or ethnicity.

You are pretty close to the facts here...just like Saddam did in the 80's, he moved a lot of the ethnic groups around in order to dilute the strength of Kurds in the north, especially in Mosul and Kirkuk. He did similiar things with Shiites. That is a large part of the reason Kirkuk is such a powder keg today, it sits on a lot of oil, and is claimed by the majority Kurd population, although there are non-Kurds that were moved in who also claim Kirkuk. The Russians simply gave Russian citizenship willy-nilly to people living in strategically vital areas. Pile that on top of the old Soviet custom of moving ethnic Russians into areas where clearly there were no Russians before, such as the "stans" Kazakhstan, for example. My Russian instructor is a Kazakh, and she looks Asian, due to her Mongol ethnicity, but she has friends who are ethnic Russians living in Kazakhstan since they were relocated from Russia.

re: #215 Forever

Making something like that personal to you, tells me more about you than about me.

Your bad self-temper is similar to that one of the Georgian president. Cousins perhaps?

Oh, I am from the shithole called Amsterdam.

Hah! That explains it. MJ, is that you?

re: #207 wolfie

thats similar to what i remebered and we had troops training them in georgia. ugh, with russia in front and iran threatening moves behind , hell, all i can say is can we get involved militarily, and is this a move only for pipelines, (yes i'm being nervous here) although not quite unexpectedly as we knew defending a country there would be a hardship. besides this point. we need to drill now!

re: #174 Shay4l

SO Russian stooges attack Georgia from Ossetia, escalating their attacks over a couple weeks. Georgia sends in its military to stop the attacks. A Russian armored and infantry force amazingly appears the SAME DAY and attacks Georgia. You show up backing the Russians, and gloat about the US isn't able to do a damn thing.

Go soak your head in a sewer.

Have the Russian "railway soldiers" left Abkhazia yet?

To the NW and N, Russians in what is the sovereign nation of Georgia.

re: #234 Forever

Holland is a lot more dependent on Russian gas than the US, so I think you should not be laughing, Forever.

re: #233 Shay4l

I hope that this poster is a sock for Just My View. I don't always check the name before I read the post and it'll just make it that much harder to skip over and ignore the anti-US creeps.

I suspect s/he's a leftover hippie Marxist who still hates the US for standing up to the Soviets. And Nazi Germany, for that matter.

Probably thinks Chomsky and Zinn are gods, as well...

re: #178 willowone

i wish i knew more . but off the top of my head i believe Georgia is OUR allie, ( and important enough to try to protect them and euro by offering defense tools, and as such don't we have an obligation to assist? g-d i hope i'm wrong

Yes, they're our allies. They have the third-largest contingent in Iraq.

re: #228 christheprofessor

I'd say slim to none if Forever is representative of Euro sentiments.

Haha, this really made me laugh and in fact it flattered me. The fact that you generalise the attitude and behaviour of a entity that inhabits 400+ million people on one single person; ME, makes me wonder how you guys really think.

re: #234 Forever

You being an ignorant citizen of the US of A explains a lot to me either.
Have a nice day and I hope you will burn from the inside seeing the US of A and the EU holding back and letting Russia have its way.

Does being a citizen of the USA make us ignorant? If the things we see happening in Europe makes you enlightened, then, ignorance is bliss.

re: #234 Forever
Why do you think letting the Russians start reconquering the old Soviet Empire is a good idea? Most of the reason we kept troops in W. Germany is so the rest of Western Europe wouldn't end up like Poland, the Baltic Republics, etc...

re: #234 Forever

You being an ignorant citizen of the US of A explains a lot to me either.
Have a nice day and I hope you will burn from the inside seeing the US of A and the EU holding back and letting Russia have its way.

You're funny...

/though you don't mean to be

re: #219 pat

I am using that show in my early medieval history class this fall.
Assignment: find all the errors!

re: #186 kevinmumaw

Strolling through the Disco Insititute's links, I found this, which counters the "myth" that Putin is a former KGB agent who is suppressing opposition and accumulating power. Apparently that is a myth because the KGB no longer exists and all Russians hate the other political parties. And besides that, Putin isn't interested in power.

If Putin were a cashier at McDonald's, the most powerful position in Russia would be cashier at McDonald's.

MYTH? They're fucking nuts.

re: #237 wolfie

We must at least help them return their men home.
I don't see any honorable way out of doing that much for them.
Beyond that, I don't know.

Whe we drop them off in Georgia, we might drop off a few hundred anti-tank missles, too, by accident.

re: #52 gunjam

Uh, Charles, as I understood (evolutionist) talk radio host Michael Savage on his show yesterday, he also sympathized with Russia in this conflict, reasoning that we are pushing them into conflict by meddling in the internal affairs of countries (e.g., Georgia) on their border and within their traditional sphere of influence.

Georgia is not their country. They can make alliances with anyone they see fit.

re: #243 ebed_melech

Holland is a lot more dependent on Russian gas than the US, so I think you should not be laughing, Forever.

We have bicycles, what are you talking about? Either walking or cycling distance, not like in the US of A, where you have to use the car for every thing you want to do.

Have a nice day.

re: #237 wolfie

We must at least help them return their men home.
I don't see any honorable way out of doing that much for them.
Beyond that, I don't know.

We will provide transport home for their troops & probably their equipment, but it is only 2,000 soldiers.
Putin is going for it here. Georgia can not hold out long alone & this will send a message to other former Soviet Republics

US says Russia uses 'disproportionate' force

now where have I heard that one?

re: #246 Forever

The fact that you generalise the attitude and behaviour of a entity that inhabits 400+ million people on one single person; ME, makes me wonder how you guys really think.

You mean generalizations like how europeans tend to think all Americans are ignorant?

re: #245 MandyManners
and weren't we setting some defense there for this very thing and that Russia had threatened Europe last year?