LGF

more options

  

Advertisement

Creationist Advocates Allying with Muslims to 'Sneak Intelligent Design Into Schools'

Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 3:42:21 pm PDT

Here’s one of the creepiest unhinged rants I’ve read in a long time, praising Bobby Jindal for signing Louisiana’s stealth creationist bill and explicitly advocating Sneaking Intelligent Design into Schools—by making alliances of convenience with Islamic creationists.

So why not piggy-back on Islam?  Do Moslems believe in Darwin?  Did Allah create the world and all its creatures, human and animal?  Is the God of Abraham not also, albeit in a form not recognized by most Christians and Jews, the God of Mohammed?  How do Muslim parents feel about Darwin being taught as the only explanation of the origin of man?  How do Muslim children feel about being compelled to sit in a classroom, lectured by an agnostic, using texts written by an atheist who insists that not only does Allah not exist, but that real education prevents us from even contemplating the existence of Allah?

How culturally insensitive these Leftists are!  How bigoted Darwinians are against Islam!  Pity the poor young Moslems being forced to swallow as “truth” those doctrines absolutely contrary to the Koran!  Allah did not create the universe, they say?  Then “they” are guilty of hate crimes against the Muslim community.  The state requires those who believe in the Prophet to be intolerantly instructed by militantly atheistic educational systems?  Then the state persecutes Islam!

How would Leftists respond?  Would they wage rhetorical war against Islam?  Do any Leftists seem that brave?  Would they allow Islamic Creationism to be taught – as part of their “cultural awareness” – but deny Judeo-Christian Creationism to be taught?  The truth, of course, is that Christianity and Judaism are infinitely more tolerant and intellectually serious about evolution than Islam.  Intelligent Design, after all, is not a literal reading of Torah.  It is simply the concept that evolution itself was guided by a greater intelligence – an idea that would hardly have troubled Plato or Aristotle.  It is the very intellectual merit of Intelligent Design that horrifies Leftists:  God could well be real.  Understanding, as a matter of the mind, that God can exist in a rational universe has proven vital to the progress and decency of mankind.  It is something worth our battle.

So while Governor Jindal presses true science, inquiry without bigotry for or against the idea of God, let us begin to challenge Moslems to stand with us to keep Allah, the Creator, at least present in our public education systems.  If Moslems really believe Islam, they will stand with serious Jews and Christians on this issue.  People of a Book, Christians, Jews, Zoroastrians and a few others, were always given an intermediate status between Moslems and atheists.  Moslems are bound by their faith to resist, first and foremost, atheism. 

Will the atheists of Leftism stand up as firmly against Moslems as they do against calm, reasonable and good-spirited Christians and Jews?  It is an issue worth testing.  It is worth testing not only to stop Darwinism as a new, awful religion, but because the very willingness of too many Christians and Jews to give up on God impresses Moslems – the wrong way.  How can Moslems believe that Jews and Christians have religious faith when so many cave in so quickly on an issue as salient as creation itself?  Once Moslems see that modernity need not mean the death of God, then they may begin to view Christianity and Judaism more benignly.  “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”  On the issue of totalitarian Darwinism, Islam and its followers may well be friends indeed.

Good grief.

(Hat tip: wrenchwench.)

Advertisement

397 comments

  • Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:44:27pm

People who would trample on freedom are linking up.

2 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:48:20pm
the very dogma which the Nazis slavishly worshipped was Darwinian evolution.

What a bunch of bull!

3 victor_yugo  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:48:20pm

re: #1 Ojoe

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

4 zombie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:49:03pm

Speaking of "Intellgent Design:"

I'm taking votes on whether I should go to this event tonight:

Anal Foreclosure

Anal Foreclosure is part demolition part exorcism. From below ground up we’ve built a space through which the audience will tour, much like a model home. After excavating the multitudes of sentiment surrounding legalized gay marriage in California, we have found the following: foreclosure party games, sequenced anal ghosts, the master’s bedroom, bathroom dances and anal divinations. We speak through games; committing our selves to win, fail or simply walk away. Through this we’ve found new possibilities for addressing the mundane failures of everyday relationships as well as the not-yet languaged. Anal Foreclosure utilizes counter-ergonomics such as piles, messes and aggregation to flesh out our relationship to space and to re-imagine the family house for those families not-yet but soon imagined.

Ryan Tacata collaborates with friends and strangers to devise performances and is looking for different types of space. He works with lists, broken stages, tinsel and games. He talks about the anus as a site to excavate shame, pleasure, families, space and futurity.

This is what San Francisco is like: A combination of post-post-postmodern intellectualized insanity and brutish body-orifice worship.

5 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:51:28pm
Understanding, as a matter of the mind, that God can exist in a rational universe has proven vital to the progress and decency of mankind. It is something worth our battle.

Look at the lack of faith here:

"... that God can exist ... is something worth our battle."

Conditionally put; and having God dependent on some struggle by humans.

A real faith would see God as a fact not dependent on anything, which is in fact one of the attributes of God anyway.

6 spacejesus  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:51:42pm

funny how the two main subjects on lgf have finally congealed into one bizarre retarded alliance.

7 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:52:04pm
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” On the issue of totalitarian Darwinism, Islam and its followers may well be friends indeed.

Yeah. What a brilliant idea! Instead of tolerating Darwin, let's tolerate people who mutilate their little daughters and kill them when they don't want to wear hijab. Wear can I sign up?!

8 _RememberTonyC  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:52:12pm

sorry to go O/T so soon ... but ...

Ex-mistress of John Edwards rules out paternity test.

How much do you think the check she received from Pony Boy was for?

9 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:52:39pm

re: #4 zombie
CAN you observe without participating?

10 Miss Trixie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:52:43pm

Well said, dear Ojoe.

11 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:53:48pm

re: #4 zombie

Speaking of "Intellgent Design:"

I'm taking votes on whether I should go to this event tonight:

Anal Foreclosure

This is what San Francisco is like: A combination of post-post-postmodern intellectualized insanity and brutish body-orifice worship.

Go. I cannot imagine this event; it needs to be documented.

It's insane, I think, to read the description. And not helpful to their cause, assuming that they think gay marriage is a positive goal.

12 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:54:12pm

re: #10 Miss Trixie

Well that's Thomas Aquinas basically, not me.

(blushes)

13 ibmkeyboard  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:54:29pm

re: #4 zombie

Speaking of "Intelligent Design:"

I'm taking votes on whether I should go to this event tonight:

Anal Foreclosure

This is what San Francisco is like: A combination of post-post-postmodern intellectualized insanity and brutish body-orifice worship.


can you say,
The big one is coming
the big one is coming.

14 Claire  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:54:34pm

re: #4 zombie

Ugh, that's a tough one. You might want to go armed with a lot of anti-bacterial wipes, just sayin'.

15 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:54:39pm
Interestingly, the very term “re-education camp” was invented by the Nazis and the very dogma which the Nazis slavishly worshipped was Darwinian evolution.


They just keep on repeating that one over and over in hope that it will someday be considered truth.

16 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:55:29pm
How culturally insensitive these Leftists are! How bigoted Darwinians are against Islam! Pity the poor young Moslems being forced to swallow as “truth” those doctrines absolutely contrary to the Koran! Allah did not create the universe, they say? Then “they” are guilty of hate crimes against the Muslim community. The state requires those who believe in the Prophet to be intolerantly instructed by militantly atheistic educational systems? Then the state persecutes Islam!

What is he hopped up on? Where does evolution say anything about the creation of the universe?

Here's a hint- it doesn't. But let's not let that stop us from hyperventilating.

17 JSK1121  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:55:46pm

This is an unholy matrimony if I've ever heard of one.

18 Miss Trixie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:55:55pm

re: #12 Ojoe

Well that's Thomas Aquinas basically, not me.

(blushes)

Still, it sounded good coming from you. *mwah*

Now, off to terrorize the 'hood with Lil Miss. BBL.

19 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:55:58pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

I believe the Soloviki Island camp was referred to as a re-education camp as early as 1921; that rather rules out the Nazis being the inventors of the term.

20 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:56:10pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

It's really disgusting.

21 zombie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:56:31pm

As for the article that is the topic of this thread:

These people need to be metaphorically slammed to the metaphorical pavement. It is no longer a game. It's just now dawning on them that -- since they intend to drag us back to the Middle Ages -- they may as well link up with the other group (Muslim fundamentalists) who also want to drag us back to the Middle Ages. Which is something we here have already predicted long ago.

"Hey guys -- you like the Middle Ages, and we like the Middle Ages: let's team up and go back in time together! Then we can re-enact the Crusades and massacre a few Jews and infidels along the way, just like the good ol' days. May the best throwback win!"

22 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:58:58pm
So why not piggy-back on Islam? Do Moslems believe in Darwin? Did Allah create the world and all its creatures, human and animal? Is the God of Abraham not also, albeit in a form not recognized by most Christians and Jews, the God of Mohammed? How do Muslim parents feel about Darwin being taught as the only explanation of the origin of man? How do Muslim children feel about being compelled to sit in a classroom, lectured by an agnostic, using texts written by an atheist who insists that not only does Allah not exist, but that real education prevents us from even contemplating the existence of Allah?


Madrassas for everybody!

23 zombie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 3:59:08pm

re: #6 spacejesus

funny how the two main subjects on lgf have finally congealed into one bizarre retarded alliance.

Not so funny at all. It's what we've been forecasting for quite a while. And it's one of the key reasons why "intelligent design" is germane to the overall theme of this blog. All the people who say, "But Charles, why are you harping on this issue? Let's get back to confronting creeping Islam," haven't woken up to the fact that creationism is one aspect of creeping Islam.

24 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:00:08pm

re: #21 zombie

Not a bad summary.

The only part of this rant that strikes me as really interesting is the use of the term "hate crime"; then the twist of raising the specter of muslim children having special privileges.

The rest strikes me as warmed-over garbage we've all seen - and seen debunked - a dozen times.

25 freetoken  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:00:27pm

This seems par for the course, for CFP. The CFP has been consistently on the side of "bad science"... E.g. their belief in abiotic oil.

26 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:01:08pm

It's really a jaw dropping article. There's no longer any doubt that Christians are willing to work with Muslims to undermine modern secular society.

27 StinkHammer  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:02:12pm
. . . let us begin to challenge Moslems to stand with us to keep Allah, the Creator, at least present in our public education systems.

This is truly shameful.

28 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:02:18pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Too broad. I doubt most Christians would have anything to do with this.

29 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:03:45pm

It's a fascinating look in to the strategy.....

How would Leftists respond? Would they wage rhetorical war against Islam? Do any Leftists seem that brave? Would they allow Islamic Creationism to be taught – as part of their “cultural awareness” – but deny Judeo-Christian Creationism to be taught?

They want to use Islam and Muslims as their bulldog to intimidate others and they think they can keep it under control. Idiots.

30 Ojoe  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:04:07pm

re: #28 Dianna

I would have nothing to do with it myself.

31 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:05:27pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

They want to use Islam and Muslims as their bulldog to intimidate others and they think they can keep it under control. Idiots.

And what does this strategy remind me of. Let me think.......

32 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:05:50pm

re: #28 Dianna

I thought about that as I was writting. I knew somebody was going to launch that strawman at me. I'm not accusing all Christians of anything and I shouldn't have to defend against the charge every single time.

33 freetoken  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:06:49pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Hmmm... I doubt all "Christians" would agree with the CFP. As mentioned earlier, CFP is just anti-science. Indeed, they are anti-lots-of-stuff. Lately they've been trying to beat up on Boone Pickens for his wind energy plan.

It seems to me that CFP is truly a reactionary site... they react to anything that is new, or modern, or different....

34 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:07:37pm
Will the atheists of Leftism stand up as firmly against Moslems as they do against calm, reasonable and good-spirited Christians and Jews? It is an issue worth testing.


Wow.

35 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:08:14pm

re: #33 freetoken

I know, I get it, strawman strawman strawman......ad infinitum.

36 Wm T Sherman  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:09:56pm

re: #4 zombie

Speaking of "Intellgent Design:"

I'm taking votes on whether I should go to this event tonight:

Anal Foreclosure


This is what San Francisco is like: A combination of post-post-postmodern intellectualized insanity and brutish body-orifice worship.


What a buncha crap.

I hope that you go.

37 mich-again  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:10:08pm
So why not piggy-back on Islam?

I don't think the Muslims want anything to do with a piggy-back.

38 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:10:32pm

re: #37 mich-again

Heh.

39 zombie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:10:59pm
#29 Killgore Trout
It's a fascinating look in to the strategy.....

How would Leftists respond? Would they wage rhetorical war against Islam? Do any Leftists seem that brave? Would they allow Islamic Creationism to be taught – as part of their “cultural awareness” – but deny Judeo-Christian Creationism to be taught?


They want to use Islam and Muslims as their bulldog to intimidate others and they think they can keep it under control. Idiots.

Their first mistake is thinking that it's the leftists who are their main opponents. In fact, it's the leftists who will open the door to Islamic creationism, in the name of multiculturalism -- and then the Christians hope to piggyback on that. So they should consider the weak, naive multicultural leftists their allies.

In fact it is us, the unnamed, unnameable freedom/rationality/secularism /individualism/science-loving lizardoid neocon wingnuts that are their mortal enemies -- and they don't even realize it.

If they think they're going to win this battle, they've got another thing coming. They halve no clue.

40 The Other Les  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:11:20pm

re: #4 zombie

There was a discussion on Varmint's site about the anal orifice:


7-25-2008
Authored by: lesbates on Sunday, July 27 2008 @ 04:39 EDT
I just call it Obamatology.

7-25-2008
Authored by: kbarrett on Monday, July 28 2008 @ 12:15 EDT
How much do they charge for an A-Meter session?

7-25-2008
Authored by: lesbates on Tuesday, July 29 2008 @ 08:13 EDT
I have no idea.

I don't dare step inside or take their literature. Once you're on their list you stay on their list.

They have to keep the stats up you know.

7-25-2008
Authored by: varmint on Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 03:11 EDT
i think it's called an "e-meter". i'm afraid to think of where they'd attache the wires for an "a" meter.

7-25-2008
Authored by: lesbates on Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 11:48 EDT
Which would make the processes of detecting "withholds" and "exteriorization" rather interesting.

7-25-2008
Authored by: kbarrett on Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 04:58 EDT
I meant A-meter. And those wires are called suppositrodes.

Once they turn on the power, you'll asstrally project.

7-25-2008
Authored by: lesbates on Wednesday, July 30 2008 @ 08:09 EDT
Then you will truly reach the state of CLEAR.

Until you eat again. Then you have to start the Peristalsis Rundown again.

7-25-2008
Authored by: kbarrett on Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 12:25 EDT
Expel them body thetans!

7-25-2008
Authored by: lesbates on Thursday, July 31 2008 @ 07:45 EDT
Of course some people can['t] take the pressure of being an Obamatologist so they blow.

41 Thanos  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:11:27pm

Bruce Walker also wrote a positive review of "Expelled" at AT iirc

42 twincitiesgirl  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:11:38pm

That is creepy. Talk about selling your soul to the devil--how stupid can they be?

/morons

43 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:11:39pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

Then watch how you write, KT!

Every group has its lunatics - even the lizards. There's no reason to tar every single member of a very large group with the brush only the lunatics deserve.

44 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:12:27pm

re: #37 mich-again

Unless they're on top?

45 Thanos  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:12:56pm

BW's book is "Sinisterism" all about how you can't possibly have morals if you are an aetheist etc.

I'm out again.

46 freetoken  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:13:18pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Heh... strawmen make good scarecrows..

47 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:14:17pm

If I hadn't been reading LGF for a few years now, I would have been totally shocked that somebody would suggest an alliance with "Moslems" against atheists. But I understand now that atheists are seen as a mortal threat to civilization. And this guy paints all atheists as leftists. Reminds me of a thread from a couple of days ago where guys with ponytails were telling about the assumptions made about them by the clueless.

48 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:14:43pm

re: #44 Dianna

I could see it now, the creationists would invite them to a pig roast picnic so they could plot strategy.

49 rawmuse  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:15:09pm

re: #4 zombie

Speaking of "Intellgent Design:"

I'm taking votes on whether I should go to this event tonight:

Anal Foreclosure

This is what San Francisco is like: A combination of post-post-postmodern intellectualized insanity and brutish body-orifice worship.

In preemptive rebuttal to all the pin heads who will, inevitably, lump all San Franciscans in to one tidy lump, I live here, go to church, tithe, am conservative, hetero, and in no way do I approve of these activities. In fact, I disapprove in the strongest terms legally permitted.

50 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:16:24pm

re: #49 rawmuse

In preemptive rebuttal to all the pin heads who will, inevitably, lump all San Franciscans in to one tidy lump, I live here, go to church, tithe, am conservative, hetero, and in no way do I approve of these activities. In fact, I disapprove in the strongest terms legally permitted.


Heh, heh... heh, heh... hey Beavis, he said "rebuttal"...

51 The Other Les  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:17:04pm

re: #23 zombie

Not so funny at all. It's what we've been forecasting for quite a while. And it's one of the key reasons why "intelligent design" is germane to the overall theme of this blog. All the people who say, "But Charles, why are you harping on this issue? Let's get back to confronting creeping Islam," haven't woken up to the fact that creationism is one aspect of creeping Islam.

What we have here are a bunch of assholes whose chosen mode of existence requires unrestrained control over the productive members of a civil society. they need us to unquestionably submit to them or they will shrivel up and die.

Not that there's anything wrong with such utterly useless people dying.

52 ornery elephant  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:17:30pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

I thought about that as I was writting. I knew somebody was going to launch that strawman at me. I'm not accusing all Christians of anything and I shouldn't have to defend against the charge every single time.

You wouldn't have to defend it if you didn't say "every single time"

53 zombie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:18:05pm

re: #49 rawmuse

In preemptive rebuttal to all the pin heads who will, inevitably, lump all San Franciscans in to one tidy lump, I live here, go to church, tithe, am conservative, hetero, and in no way do I approve of these activities. In fact, I disapprove in the strongest terms legally permitted.

Ah yes, but from what you've written earlier I take it you live in the Outer Sunset/Lake Merced/Daly City type area? That's an entirely different ball of wax out there -- fairly conservative, actually, and family-oriented. A different San Francisco.

54 The Other Les  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:18:50pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

It's really a jaw dropping article. There's no longer any doubt that Christians are willing to work with Muslims to undermine modern secular society.

Anyone who openly works with the avowed enemies of Christ has no business calling himself a Christian.

55 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:18:57pm

re: #48 Mich-again

That is excellent!

56 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:19:05pm

Are Fred Phelps morals admirable because he calls himself a Christian?

57 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:19:33pm

re: #23 zombie

Not so funny at all. It's what we've been forecasting for quite a while. And it's one of the key reasons why "intelligent design" is germane to the overall theme of this blog. All the people who say, "But Charles, why are you harping on this issue? Let's get back to confronting creeping Islam," haven't woken up to the fact that creationism is one aspect of creeping Islam.

Well, now we can point to this thread and invite them to STFU&STFD.

58 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:19:48pm

re: #49 rawmuse

Right! Hear, hear!

59 ladycatnip  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:19:50pm

#33 freetoken

Hmmm... I doubt all "Christians" would agree with the CFP. As mentioned earlier, CFP is just anti-science. Indeed, they are anti-lots-of-stuff. Lately they've been trying to beat up on Boone Pickens for his wind energy plan.

It seems to me that CFP is truly a reactionary site... they react to anything that is new, or modern, or different....

You're absolutely right. This Christian is repulsed by the alliance between these two camps, using creation as their means.

60 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:22:02pm

re: #28 Dianna

Too broad. I doubt most Christians would have anything to do with this.

He probably should have said "...there are Christians who...". IMO.

61 stevieray  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:22:05pm

I wonder what the Marxists, like Che Gueverra's kids would say? Aren't they also trying to form an alliance with the Muslims, as they tried in Iran... the better to smash Western Civ and free-market capitalism?

Seems like many political extremists are trying to ride the Muslim warhorse to power. What makes either side think they can control the beast once they've ridden it deep into our societies?

62 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:22:08pm

re: #56 Mich-again

Clearly not. However, that question might place some of these people in an awkward position.

Perhaps it ought to be asked of them. Repeatedly.

63 The Other Les  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:22:21pm

re: #47 wrenchwench

If I hadn't been reading LGF for a few years now, I would have been totally shocked that somebody would suggest an alliance with "Moslems" against atheists. But I understand now that atheists are seen as a mortal threat to civilization. And this guy paints all atheists as leftists. Reminds me of a thread from a couple of days ago where guys with ponytails were telling about the assumptions made about them by the clueless.

Even though I'm an atheist I have absolutely no use for the Left.

64 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:22:48pm

re: #60 Salem

He should have, but he didn't.

*Sigh*

65 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:22:58pm

re: #43 Dianna

Yes but if I say, "If you draw that cartoon Muslims will riot." I'm not implying that all Muslims will riot. Not even the majority will riot. Only a very small portion will. The sentence is still grammatically correct. There will be riots and Muslims will attend. It just gets repetitive defending against these strawmem and people use it as a weapon.I know what I meant and you did too. If I tell you all Christians are doing something you'll know it because I'll use the "all". Otherwise I'm speaking generally.

66 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:23:37pm

See, this makes me kind of pissed... To hell with the velvet glove.

67 freetoken  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:23:41pm

Slightly off topic... but some news perhaps missed because of the concentration on Ossetia:

Fatal blasts hit Chinese province

At least one person has died after a series of explosions hit the north-western Chinese province of Xinjiang, state media has reported.

It said sporadic gunfire was heard after the blasts, which occurred in the early hours in the town of Kuqa. [...]

The muslim Uighurs are not going to go peacefully into the night....

68 The Other Les  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:24:00pm

re: #56 Mich-again

Are Fred Phelps morals admirable because he calls himself a Christian?

If he doesn't pass the duck test for being a Christian then he's not a Christian.

69 doppelganglander  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:24:26pm

I tend to avoid the ID threads because I'm just not that interested in the topic. The Disco folks seemed stupid but mostly harmless. Now, I'm seriously concerned. Anyone who would make an alliance with Islamofascists for any reason is an enemy of America.

As my mama always said, if you like down with dogs, you get up with fleas.

70 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:25:04pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

I think that, as usual, you're bored and looking for a fight.

Whatever. Have fun.

71 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:25:43pm

re: #47 wrenchwench

This is why "interfaith dialogue" makes me nervous.

72 CapeCoddah  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:26:25pm

Wow, that article made the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
I have read some creepy things, but, not much was creepier than this. Wow, this is unconscionable.

73 The Other Les  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:27:15pm

re: #67 freetoken

Totalitarian scum killing totalitarian scum. So what?

/Menachem Begin mode

74 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:27:25pm

re: #70 Dianna

No, I just don't like being asked to walk on eggshells.

75 zombie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:30:15pm

My proposed solution is this:

Dissolve the public school system. Allow neighborhoods or groups or like-minded parents or co-religionists or whatever to devise their own charter schools to their own specifications, and then grant each one a base-level amount of taxpayer-funded school vouchers (calculated per student) which would allow basic scholastic functioning. (And if the parents want to individually donate to additionally fund their own charter schools, so be it). Let the market decide. Any kid can go to any schools of their choosing -- no discrimination allowed. If certain religious groups want to send their kids to their own charter schools and teach them balderdash, then let them go ahead. Meanwhile, the other parents can send their kids to good schools.

Little by little, the groups who send their kids to balderdash schools will render themselves into becoming an irrelevant underclass, as as result of their own choices, and then they can safely be ignored. This applies to both religious people who teach anti-science, and leftists who teach multicultural claptrap and their own form of Lysenkoist anti-science.

Ruin your own social groupings, fools -- not mine.

Then the meritocratic system will finally obtain, as the best will rise to the top of society's ecosystem.

76 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:30:36pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

I thought about that as I was writting. I knew somebody was going to launch that strawman at me. I'm not accusing all Christians of anything and I shouldn't have to defend against the charge every single time.

First let me state that I'm on your side in this debate. Probably the best descriptor for my religious stance is "agnostic".

My criticism of you here is that imprecise use of language... in this case the part of your statement where you said "There's no longer any doubt that Christians are willing to work with Muslims to undermine modern secular society."... does, in fact, leave your statement open to the criticism that you're placing all Christians in that category. Your mistake was making it such a general statement.
The simple addition of "some", or even "many" would have pre-empted the validity of any such accusation against you.

In the case of the ID/fundamentilist Islam connection being discussed, we have one set of fringe characters basing their arguments in their interpretaion of religion finding allies of convenience in another set of fringe characters who also base their position in their interpretation of religion. It's an illogical extrapolation leading literally to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face.

77 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:30:43pm

re: #69 doppelganglander

The Disco folks are dangerous because their top intellectuals know that they're lying about their Intelligent Design "science" but they do it anyway. They know they don't have anything to challenge current thinking in evolutionary science, but they make bold claims in front of audiences that don't know any better, and spend their time writing books, giving lectures, and building their movement. It's a political movement based on lies.

78 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:31:00pm

I scrolled through some of his other articles. He's really obsessed with atheists.

79 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:31:06pm

re: #74 Killgore Trout

Not tonight, dear. I'm in far too good a mood.

Have fun with whoever wants to be drawn in.

80 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:32:05pm

re: #39 zombie

Their first mistake is thinking that it's the leftists who are their main opponents. In fact, it's the leftists who will open the door to Islamic creationism, in the name of multiculturalism -- and then the Christians hope to piggyback on that. So they should consider the weak, naive multicultural leftists their allies.

In fact it is us, the unnamed, unnameable freedom/rationality/secularism /individualism/science-loving lizardoid neocon wingnuts that are their mortal enemies -- and they don't even realize it.

If they think they're going to win this battle, they've got another thing coming. They halve no clue.


I think you're trying to put messy things into neat boxes.

My own view is that even the left, for the most part, will NOT cooperate w/ creationism in the name of multi-culturalism. Indeed, I believe a solid majority of the left will fight hard on this particular issue against Islam.

81 nyc redneck  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:32:59pm

these people are so naive and misguided if they think they can pick and choose how THEY are going to use islam.

82 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:33:18pm

re: #76 RightOnTheLeftCoast

If I meant "all" I would have used it.

83 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:33:22pm

re: #78 Killgore Trout

I scrolled through some of his other articles. He's really obsessed with atheists.

He's not a big fan of Muslims, either, but apparently atheists are worse.

84 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:33:27pm

re: #80 wolfie

We can hope. But the multi-culturist mind-set leads to some amazing spinelessness.

85 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:33:41pm

re: #49 rawmuse

In preemptive rebuttal to all the pin heads who will, inevitably, lump all San Franciscans in to one tidy lump, I live here, go to church, tithe, am conservative, hetero, and in no way do I approve of these activities. In fact, I disapprove in the strongest terms legally permitted.

Perhaps an unfortunate choice of word!

86 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:34:16pm

re: #50 RightOnTheLeftCoast

Heh, heh... heh, heh... hey Beavis, he said "rebuttal"...

GMTA

SMTA ................sassy!

87 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:34:25pm

re: #83 wrenchwench

Don't forget the Nazis. He's really into Nazis.

88 uptight  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:34:34pm

The thing I resent the most is the idea that atheist evolutionists are "leftists".

Do I lump them in with the Klan, just cos they're Jesus freaks?

89 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:36:06pm
Is the God of Abraham not also, albeit in a form not recognized by most Christians and Jews, the God of Mohammed?

No, wrong, misaimed. Read you Bible ijit. First the Christian Bible explicitly contains and continues Jewish teaching, Christians belief the prophecies of the Messiah were fulfilled. something the Quran does not do. Second, there is no prohecy in the Jewish and Christian text to support the Quran. Third the Bible closes the book explicitly saying nothing is to be added. Finally the content of the texts are wildly divergent. The Quran's call for domination of the world by force is contrary to the free will acceptance of faith in the Jewish and Christian faiths.

Further more, the Old Testament and New Testament are repelet with warning about mingling the Judeo / Christian faith with other beliefs.

From a Christian perspective this is a serious misaiming.

90 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:36:42pm

This isn't written from the perspective of a Young Earth Christian. After ll it includes this..

Intelligent Design, after all, is not a literal reading of Torah. It is simply the concept that evolution itself was guided by a greater intelligence – an idea that would hardly have troubled Plato or Aristotle. It is the very intellectual merit of Intelligent Design that horrifies Leftists: God could well be real.

He is mistakenly connecting Darwinism to atheism. Its as if all of evolutionary biology hinges on the idea that there can be no such thing as God, and thats just not true.

91 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:36:51pm
Creationist Advocates Allying with Muslims . . .

It's a rant by one nut, who also wrote "The Swastika against the Cross: The Nazi War on Christianity", published by Outskirts Press, a vanity publisher.

/it's not going to work anyway

92 Bobibutu  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:38:05pm

re: #4 zombie

GO!

93 wanglese  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:38:16pm

I gotta say, Everyone missed this delicious piece of unfortunate phrasing:

why not piggy-back on Islam?

Of course, this nonsense is a case that you could ally yourself with an enemy in order to achieve a greater goal, and that you could control the enemy later.
I would suggest the same mentality was espoused by Hitler with respect to Stalin. Only in this case, I'm not sure who is who :-)

94 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:39:03pm

re: #80 wolfie

I think you're trying to put messy things into neat boxes.

My own view is that even the left, for the most part, will NOT cooperate w/ creationism in the name of multi-culturalism. Indeed, I believe a solid majority of the left will fight hard on this particular issue against Islam.

That sounds nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Look at all of the things Islam does today that we wouldn't have expected the left to tolerate. Practically everything about Islam. And yet they do.

95 The Other Les  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:39:34pm

re: #88 uptight

The thing I resent the most is the idea that atheist evolutionists are "leftists".

Do I lump them in with the Klan, just cos they're Jesus freaks?

I was pretty much screaming at the top of my lungs the last time someone called me a leftist.

96 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:40:10pm

re: #93 wanglese

I gotta say, Everyone missed this delicious piece of unfortunate phrasing:

why not piggy-back on Islam?


Not everyone missed it. See 37. Ha. That phrase jumps off the page no?

97 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:41:01pm

re: #93 wanglese

I gotta say, Everyone missed this delicious piece of unfortunate phrasing:

why not piggy-back on Islam?


Piggy back? Won't that earn you a fatwa?

98 Hucbald  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:41:28pm

Any Christian group that would align with Moslems is not Christian.

99 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:42:41pm

re: #91 Killian Bundy

It's a rant by one nut, who also wrote "The Swastika against the Cross: The Nazi War on Christianity", published by Outskirts Press, a vanity publisher.

/it's not going to work anyway

He has a bunch of articles at American Thinker, too, and several other places.

100 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:42:47pm

re: #91 Killian Bundy

It's a rant by one nut, who also wrote "The Swastika against the Cross: The Nazi War on Christianity", published by Outskirts Press, a vanity publisher.

/it's not going to work anyway

Good, then I expect the DI to come out and officially condemn this. And if they don't, maybe you'll stop apologizing for them.

101 Mich-again  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:43:17pm

I will agree with the writer on one point, that some folks on the left who are very outspoken against Christianity are very non-spoken when it comes to criticizing and/or ridiculing Islam. Either they view Christians as a bigger threat to their liberty or they are afraid of repercussions from Islamic Rage Boy.

102 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:43:39pm

re: #98 Hucbald

Any Christian group that would align with Moslems is not Christian.

huh? why? Does that pertain to individulas also? I'm a Roman Catholic, and I have Muslim friends. Should I cut off all contact with them? What about my cousin, who married a Muslim woman. Should I never have contact with him again, or insist that he divorces his wife?

103 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:45:08pm

re: #100 Salem

Good, then I expect the DI to come out and officially condemn this. And if they don't, maybe you'll stop apologizing for them.

The Discovery Institute won't condemn this. They are doing the same thing with Islamic creationists in Turkey, as I've documented.

104 wanglese  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:45:44pm

Mich-Again.

Apologies. I scanned and missed it. It does indeed jump right out at you :-)

105 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:46:08pm

re: #100 Salem

Good, then I expect the DI to come out and officially condemn this. And if they don't, maybe you'll stop apologizing for them.

I'm not apologizing for anyone.

/my point is, when the school year starts they'll step over the line once again, get sued successfully, and' that'll be the end of the "stealth creationism" law in Louisiana

106 straitcircle  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:46:30pm

Now Islamists have all the US money from our oil purchases, they hire lobbyists to call for special privileges in schools, because they are minorities in the US white world. So the issue is not Islam it is Christianity. I think Obama, McCain, Clinton, Bush, etc.. were Christians, and they must believe in Creationism if they are Christians. I guess that is bad. Maybe if we kick all the Christians out of the US we can have our atheist world, just how we like it. Lord knows people cannot think for themselves, so must be affirmative in what is taught in education, least we hurt the children's minds.

107 freetoken  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:46:50pm

re: #75 zombie

The school voucher/charter school proponents and libertarians have been discussing this issue for a while... initially I was for the 100% voucher "solution", but over time have withdrawn my whole hearted support for it... (now I'm just lukewarm.)

Here is where the problem will arise, I believe. Even if your survival-of-the-fittest education system theory holds true (for sorting out the best educated students), it can only do so in the environment you've envisioned: a continuous, uninterrupted and parsimonious redistribution of tax money (as "vouchers" or some other mechanism.)

However, the history of government spending would lead me to believe that the voucher system would be corrupted, for various reasons and in response to various pressure groups. For example, physical plant and human resource costs in California are much higher than say in Mississippi, thus wouldn't the California vouchers end up being much larger than those in Mississippi? If that would be the case, then there would political pressure for the Federal government to spend more in Mississippi (as a way of preventing Mississippi students from being disadvantaged); and if the majority of Miss. schools teach creationism, then one would be pouring more and more money down that hole... meanwhile the California students turn out bright and well educated (according to your theory), and the Miss. students turn out incompetent (for modern society, though they might do well in an agrarian society.)

So, if you are trying to have an egalitarian society... is not spending government money (indirectly through vouchers) on reinforcing bad behavior (in this case creationism) working against that goal?

In summary, I do not believe you can weld survival-of-the-fittest with egalitarian redistribution of tax money (e.g., through vouchers.)

108 LSD  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:47:17pm

re: #98 Hucbald My Lord, That's idiotic ...

109 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:48:37pm

re: #99 wrenchwench

He has a bunch of articles at American Thinker, too, and several other places.

And that makes him less of a nut?

/the Nazi war on Christianity, how insane is that?

110 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:48:42pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

If I meant "all" I would have used it.


OK... perhaps you would...

But in saying:
"If I tell you all Christians are doing something you'll know it because I'll use the "all". Otherwise I'm speaking generally."

"Speaking generally" implies that it applies across the broad spectrum... to most if not all. All I'd ask is not leaving the ambiguity floating in the air to draw the criticism.

You said yourself that you thought about the possibility of misinterpretation when you originally wrote it. That tells me that you instinctively knew that the statement was vague and open to interpretation.
Inserting "all" would eliminate all doubt that your comment applied to all, just as adding "some" would eliminate all doubt that you were slyly hinting at all...

Sorry, dude... 8 years of Clintonspeak has led to minute parsing of the subtleties of every word. Eliminate the possibility of someone inferring intent on your part that wasn't in fact there, and you will eliminate (or at least heavily minimize) the need to defend against it.

111 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:48:53pm

re: #108 LSD

My Lord, That's idiotic ...

thanks ,, that was more to the point than my #102. But when I saw that, my fingers and mind went flying!

112 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:49:39pm

re: #105 Killian Bundy

I certainly hope so.

113 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:50:35pm

re: #90 Mich-again

He's also overlooking that very few Jews actually believe in creationism. Even fewer believe in ID. Ben Stein is an anomaly.

114 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:51:15pm

re: #109 Killian Bundy

And that makes him less of a nut?

/the Nazi war on Christianity, how insane is that?

Okay, but the "Nothing to see here" shtick is getting really old, Bundy.

115 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:52:29pm

re: #103 Charles

The Discovery Institute won't apologize for this. They are doing the same thing with Islamic creationists in Turkey, as I've documented.

I certainly agree with you.

116 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:53:22pm

re: #109 Killian Bundy

And that makes him less of a nut?

/the Nazi war on Christianity, how insane is that?

He's still a nut, but not the kind of nut you can ignore and be confident that he'll fade into obscurity. Except you seem pretty confident that ID will fade into obscurity, so I shouldn't make assumptions.

117 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:54:23pm

re: #102 sattv4u2

Life doesn't fit into neat little boxes, does it?

118 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:54:31pm
Once Moslems see that modernity need not mean the death of God, then they may begin to view Christianity and Judaism more benignly.

Yes, look at how the so-called Palestinians view modern orthodox Israelis.

/who is this clown?

119 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:54:55pm

re: #112 Dianna

I certainly hope so.

/so far, they're 0 for their existence in court and I don't see that streak changing, their legal opponents are well financed, extremely vigilant, and the law in this area is well settled, it's illegal to teach Creationism as science in public schools, period

120 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:54:56pm

re: #117 wolfie

Life doesn't fit into neat little boxes, does it?

no ,, but unfortunately, death does!

121 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:56:48pm

re: #120 sattv4u2

rim shot for sattv !

122 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:57:30pm

re: #110 RightOnTheLeftCoast


My original statement....

There's no longer any doubt that Christians are willing to work with Muslims to undermine modern secular society.

Don't you find it curious that people only want me to put a qualifier there for one group? What about the Muslims? Why isn't anybody misreading that statement as all Christians want to work with all Muslims? That would be ridiculous. We speak in general terms here all the time. "Serbs burned our embassy", "Palestinians are goofy", etc. Nobody complains about that. I don't see why one special group demands qualifiers and the others don't. If I want to indicate all of something I'll say it.

123 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:58:07pm

By the way, thanks for the hat tip, Charles. Did you find an answer to godfrey's question:

/who is this clown?
124 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:58:17pm

re: #116 wrenchwench

you seem pretty confident that ID will fade into obscurity, so I shouldn't make assumptions.

I never said it's going to fade into obscurity. Not as long as the First Amendment still stands. People are entitled to believe in whatever bull[expletive deleted] they want.

/what I'm saying is that ID isn't going to find it's way into approved public school science curricula

125 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:58:24pm

re: #114 Salem

Okay, but the "Nothing to see here" shtick is getting really old, Bundy.

I mean, I understand if you're just advising caution. But look who you are staking credibility on. It's a lost cause, dude. These guys are just getting started.

126 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:59:07pm

re: #119 Killian Bundy

All it takes is one judge thinking it's culturally insensitive.

127 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 4:59:53pm

re: #124 Killian Bundy

Probably not anytime soon. We'll see what happens in Louisianan, if they keep trying they're bound to find a loophole sooner or later.

128 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:00:04pm

re: #114 Salem

Okay, but the "Nothing to see here" shtick is getting really old, Bundy.

/and so is the secular science education (evolution) is on the verge of being toppled meme

129 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:01:33pm

re: #124 Killian Bundy

/what I'm saying is that ID isn't going to find it's way into approved public school science curricula

What I think you're more specifically saying is that every time it does, it will get thrown out.

130 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:01:49pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

What about the Muslims? Why isn't anybody misreading that statement as all Christians want to work with all Muslims?

Nowhere in my query did I say anything except, "too broad."

I just love watching you pick fights, but it's really distracting from what might otherwise be an interesting discussion.

So I'm going to feed and walk my dogs and when I come back, maybe you'll have settled down. Or maybe you'll be in a full-fledged flame war, and I can just go do something else.

131 Basho  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:02:22pm

re: #76 RightOnTheLeftCoast

My criticism of you here is that imprecise use of language... in this case the part of your statement where you said "There's no longer any doubt that Christians are willing to work with Muslims to undermine modern secular society."... does, in fact, leave your statement open to the criticism that you're placing all Christians in that category. Your mistake was making it such a general statement.
The simple addition of "some", or even "many" would have pre-empted the validity of any such accusation against you.

Dude, seriously; if one said "Christians live on Main Street", it obviously doesn't mean all Christians live on Main Streets.

132 anotherindyfilmguy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:02:48pm

They're so fricking blind in their desire to get their way that they'd sell their souls to the devil of they thought it would get their version of I.D. into schools... What? They've just sold their souls to Allah? Never mind...

133 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:03:16pm

re: #121 wolfie

rim shot for sattv !

OUCH!

134 MrArchieBunker  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:04:14pm

re: #69 doppelganglander

That was well said. ID wasn't really on my radar screen until I started reading about it here, and I found my self agreeing with Charles, because he laid out a factual, devastating rebuttal. That article in the CFP was downright bizarre, poor syntax and all that. I had to read it twice to make out what the dude meant.

135 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:04:23pm

re: #128 Killian Bundy

/and so is the secular science education (evolution) is on the verge of being toppled meme

That's a valid argument. But they are true believers. They aren't going to shrug and go back to not being a problem. They fully merit the attention they are getting here.

136 Occasional Reader  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:05:36pm

Apropos of nothing; today's my birthday. Wish me a happy birthday, ya bastages.

137 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:06:07pm

What are these people thinking? Lets ally ourselves with folks who chop off the heads of unbelievers. Madness.

138 Basho  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:06:13pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader

Happy Birthday.

139 paradox42  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:06:26pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader

Happy Birthday.

140 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:06:36pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

My original statement....

Don't you find it curious that people only want me to put a qualifier there for one group? What about the Muslims? Why isn't anybody misreading that statement as all Christians want to work with all Muslims? That would be ridiculous. We speak in general terms here all the time. "Serbs burned our embassy", "Palestinians are goofy", etc. Nobody complains about that. I don't see why one special group demands qualifiers and the others don't. If I want to indicate all of something I'll say it.

Good point. I'll have to agree that the debate did get single-threaded.

141 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:06:45pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader

Cheers.

142 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:07:01pm

re: #131 Basho

I'm sad to go you one further, Basho. I personally know people who profess themselves to be Christians and yet work with people close to the Muslim Brotherhood. There is a fight going on within Christianity, believe me. At least in my neck of the woods.

The disease is the totalitarian impulse, not religious faith.

143 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:07:06pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader
Happy Birthday! May you get that which you so richly deserve. Heh.

144 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:07:25pm

re: #140 RightOnTheLeftCoast

;)

145 anotherindyfilmguy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:07:58pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader

May your birthday suit fit you well...

146 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:07:59pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader

hippo birdie 2 ewes
hippo birdie 2 ewes
hippo birdie, deer OR
hippo birdie 2 ewes!

147 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:08:19pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

My original statement....

Don't you find it curious that people only want me to put a qualifier there for one group? What about the Muslims? Why isn't anybody misreading that statement as all Christians want to work with all Muslims? That would be ridiculous. We speak in general terms here all the time. "Serbs burned our embassy", "Palestinians are goofy", etc. Nobody complains about that. I don't see why one special group demands qualifiers and the others don't. If I want to indicate all of something I'll say it.

I'm sure if there were a SERB or a PALASTINAIN on here, they would ask for a qualifier to those statements, IMHO

148 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:08:29pm

re: #113 Killgore Trout

He's also overlooking that very few Jews actually believe in creationism. Even fewer believe in ID. Ben Stein is an anomaly.

Sadly, that's just not true.

149 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:08:33pm

Happy birthday, OR. Drinks are on me. What's in the gift box? More ammo?

150 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:09:05pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader

Apropos of nothing; today's my birthday. Wish me a happy birthday, ya bastages.

Happy Birthday, from one Old Bastage to another

151 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:09:10pm

re: #129 wrenchwench

What I think you're more specifically saying is that every time it does, it will get thrown out.

Last time they got as far as reading a statement in one class, IIRC.

/the school board subsequently went down in flames and ended up paying everyone's legal fees, sooner or later you'd think they'd get tired of sticking their fingers in the judicial light socket, but they'll get the same shock every time they try it

152 Occasional Reader  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:09:42pm

re: #143 pingjockey

Happy Birthday! May you get that which you so richly deserve. Heh.

He's not saying, and I haven't seen it yet, but I think my dad bought me a K-Bar USMC knife for my birthday... not sure I deserve it, but I know my mom "disapproves", so whatever it is, it can't be all bad!

I talked to my wife (who is in another hemisphere at the moment) and she's being very coy about my birthday present, but I doubt it's anything as cool as a K-Bar...

153 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:10:30pm

re: #152 Occasional Reader

Maybe your wife is getting you something from Brazil?

154 Occasional Reader  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:10:50pm

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

You may now resume the flame war.

155 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:11:01pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader

I hear you like these: +

I gave you one.

156 The Other Les  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:11:06pm
157 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:11:14pm

re: #152 Occasional Reader

re: #153 godfrey

Maybe your wife is getting you something from Brazil?

A Brazilian Bikini Model, perhaps

158 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:11:19pm

re: #152 Occasional Reader
A K-bar would be cool.

159 Occasional Reader  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:11:24pm

re: #153 godfrey

Maybe your wife is getting you something from Brazil?

You saw that movie, too, huh?

160 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:11:38pm

re: #155 wrenchwench

I hear you like these: +

I gave you one.

nice ,,,, cheap, yet tacky !

161 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:12:27pm

Do Brazilian supermodels deliver ibuprofen? Have her dispatch a crew to my address.

162 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:12:54pm

re: #161 godfrey
That may have possiblities!

163 Occasional Reader  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:12:59pm

re: #155 wrenchwench

I hear you like these: +

I gave you one.

I am a shameless upding whore, it's true. Compared to my upding whoreness, Paris Hilton is chaste.

164 Basho  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:13:24pm

re: #142 godfrey

Just curious, where is your neck of the woods located?

165 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:13:36pm

Far be it from me to douse a perfectly decent flame war.

166 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:13:39pm

re: #135 Salem

That's a valid argument. But they are true believers. They aren't going to shrug and go back to not being a problem. They fully merit the attention they are getting here.

You can't make people accept reality. The troof is out there.

/more important is the attention they're getting from the ACLU, Americans United, and the other groups doing the heavy lifting in the courts

167 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:13:40pm

War in Georgia, and H & C is going on about silky pony. A pox on all media.

168 Occasional Reader  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:13:51pm

re: #161 godfrey

Do Brazilian supermodels deliver ibuprofen? Have her dispatch a crew to my address.

Why are you in need of ibuprofen? (Which doesn't cure herpes, just in case that's at issue in any way)

169 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:14:26pm

re: #168 Occasional Reader
Ouch!

170 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:14:58pm

re: #167 pingjockey

War in Georgia, and H & C is going on about silky pony. A pox on all media.

if it's H & C it's on Saturday night it's either pre-taped or a re-run, They're not "live" Sat/ Sun

171 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:15:20pm

Charles - Y Todo El Mundo -

AND - What is the surprise? Islam, by and large, has not progressed theologically since the 7th Century - By their own teachings, Islam is the Perfection of Religion, Mohamed essentially superceeding Yehoshua (Jesus) and ALL of the Jewish Prophets. What would one expect?

-S-

172 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:15:21pm

re: #144 Killgore Trout

;)

Heh, heh...

Funny, isn't it, how often rhetorical knives cut both ways?
I argue that you applied the general case when you should have been more specific.
You counter that my flaw was being too specific when I should have applied my criticism more generally.

Oddly, methinks we were both correct! ;)

C'est la vie!

173 Occasional Reader  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:15:25pm

re: #167 pingjockey

War in Georgia, and H & C is going on about silky pony. A pox on all media.

They're also completely ignoring my birthday. What the fuck is wrong with the priorities in this country?

174 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:15:52pm

re: #170 sattv4u2
Ah. Didn't even think about that. Still, a pox on the media.

175 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:16:23pm

re: #148 Lynn B.

86% of Jews believe in evolution. That's pretty strong.

176 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:16:28pm

re: #164 Basho

My neck of the woods is technically transcontinental, and I'd rather not say more.

Hey, in looking up "Basho," I found this present for OR. We should all chip in.

177 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:16:35pm

re: #142 godfrey

I'm sad to go you one further, Basho. I personally know people who profess themselves to be Christians and yet work with people close to the Muslim Brotherhood. There is a fight going on within Christianity, believe me. At least in my neck of the woods.

The disease is the totalitarian impulse, not religious faith.


Take the Reverend Wright, for example,............

Now, where I live, it is precisely the dreadful Baptoids (Baptists, Pentecostalists, etc.) who are by far the best informed about Islam and the least likely to ally with any Muslim group for any reason. The only Christians around here I can imagine schmoozing w/ Islamists are "mainline", Episcopalian types.......or perhaps members of my own church (Catholic.)

178 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:16:47pm

re: #174 pingjockey

Ah. Didn't even think about that. Still, a pox on the media.

the pox stays

179 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:17:04pm

re: #152 Occasional Reader

re: #158 pingjockey

A K-bar would be cool.

That's not a knife......

180 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:17:05pm

re: #173 Occasional Reader
All I know is my 50th is on a Friday. So I'll have 2 days to recover!

181 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:18:38pm

re: #158 pingjockey

A K-bar would be cool.

Is that ice cream?

182 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:18:39pm

re: #179 jcm
My hunting knife is just a bit smaller than that. 10" blade. Won it off the tavern pull tab game!

183 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:19:04pm

re: #180 pingjockey

All I know is my 50th is on a Friday. So I'll have 2 days to recover!

You never recover from THE BIG FIVE OH!

184 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:19:17pm

re: #181 wolfie
Hehe! A marine combat knife.

185 Occasional Reader  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:19:18pm

re: #176 godfrey

My neck of the woods is technically transcontinental, and I'd rather not say more.

Hey, in looking up "Basho," I found this present for OR. We should all chip in.

"Transcontinental", mmm... you live at the Panama/Colombia border, I see.

Thanks for the gift idea, but sumos make me nervous.

Anyway, off to dinner with some friends. Stay lizardian, y'all.

186 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:19:28pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader

Happy birthday! Many happy returns!

187 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:19:45pm

OR

Ibuprofen's for the joint pain from stomach flu. You don't want to hear about it.

188 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:19:59pm

re: #136 Occasional Reader

Happy Birthday OR ... and many more!

189 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:20:14pm

re: #183 jcm
Bah. I have an 8 yr old kid and a Harley. I'm gonna be a kid till I'm 80.

190 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:21:21pm

re: #126 Dianna

All it takes is one judge thinking it's culturally insensitive.

Which would be immediately appealed.

/this issue has been settled by the Supreme Court

191 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:21:36pm

re: #189 pingjockey

Bah. I have an 8 yr old kid and a Harley. I'm gonna be a kid till I'm 80.

Live Young!

192 wrenchwench  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:22:01pm

re: #176 godfrey

My neck of the woods is technically transcontinental, and I'd rather not say more.

Hey, in looking up "Basho," I found this present for OR. We should all chip in.

That's lovely! I have one of these in stock.

193 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:22:33pm

re: #191 jcm
Damn straight. I have a 17, 15, 8 yr old boys/men and they keep me on my toes for sure!

194 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:22:48pm

re: #175 Killgore Trout

86% of Jews believe in evolution. That's pretty strong.

"K-T" -

I believe in "evolution"as well. My Theory/Theology goes sort of like this - G-d started it all, and stepped back. My Theory/Theology allows for Multiple creation - If G-d can do it once, why not twice, thrice, or more?

-S-

195 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:23:16pm

re: #176 godfrey

I noticed on a recent thread you used the double subjunctive construction "might could."
I may not be able to pin down your present location, but I might could reveal your origins.

Of course, for a price,...........say, one of them K ice cream bars or a couple of bucks............my lips are sealed.

196 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:23:17pm

re: #192 wrenchwench
Ahahahahaha! That is funny.

197 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:23:36pm

re: #192 wrenchwench

lol - I'll take one if its horn sound is an obscure Japanese expletive.

198 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:24:09pm

re: #184 pingjockey

Hehe! A marine combat knife.

Rats. It sounded so tasty.

199 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:24:38pm
So while Governor Jindal presses true science, inquiry without bigotry for or against the idea of God, let us begin to challenge Moslems to stand with us to keep Allah, the Creator, at least present in our public education systems.

This comment is wrong on so many points. Let's break them down, shall we?

One- Governor Jindal is not pressing for true science. He is pushing for a lack of inquiry. Saying "it was designed that way" stops inquiry in it's tracks.

Two- science doesn't speak for or against God. It can't since God falls outside the scientific method.

Three- trying to push allah into the public schools is playing with fire as well as illegal. It is fire in that this is exactly what many of us feared with ID from the beginning- now islamic creationism will also be taught. So where does that stop? Will the muslim children be offended to learn the Judeo-Christian version? And why not all the other creation stories from other religions? He wants to bring up bigotry- why do I get the feeling non-Abrahamic religions will be not allowed. Is that not also bigotry?

Mostly I have to wonder at a person whose faith seems so shakey as to need it to be reinforced by the state then turning around and railing about liberals and atheists. I guess there are some on the right who don't really have a problem with the state being a nanny- just so long as it's their pet cause. How very sad.

200 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:24:50pm

re: #198 wolfie
It is very tasty for keeping you alive.

201 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:25:13pm

re: #195 wolfie

lol - You have a sharp eye, wolfie, but how can you be sure I wasn't having a bit of fun, and just playing at it?

202 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:26:59pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

Totalitarianism has, as its root, a lack of nerve.

203 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:27:11pm

re: #195 wolfie

double subjunctive construction ,,,,,my lips are sealed.

If I tried to say that, MY lips would fall off !

204 Miss Trixie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:27:12pm

&#9834 &#9836 Happy Birthday to You &#9836 &#9834
&#9834 &#9836 Happy Birthday to You &#9836 &#9834
&#9834 &#9836 Happy Birthday Dear OR &#9836 &#9834
&#9834 &#9836 Happy Birthday to You! &#9836 &#9834

And many mooooooooooooooooooooooore!

:D

205 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:28:46pm

re: #201 godfrey

lol - You have a sharp eye, wolfie, but how can you be sure I wasn't having a bit of fun, and just playing at it?

Well, now, my friend......heh, heh, heh.....you wouldn't know it well enough to even play with it unless you were................heh heh

Say. Forget the K-bar. Turns out it's just some dumb knife. Pass me a shot of Wild Turkey and I'll pretend I KNOW NOTHING !

206 itellu3times  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:29:23pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

One- Governor Jindal is not pressing for true science. He is pushing for a lack of inquiry. Saying "it was designed that way" stops inquiry in its tracks.

Yes!

207 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:29:37pm

re: #175 Killgore Trout

86% of Jews believe in evolution. That's pretty strong.

First of all, I don't consider 14% to be "very few" (unless you mean relative to other religious denominations. And keep in mind that self-defined Jews (much less than self-defined Christians, for example) include a fair number of non-believers. So a poll like this doesn't tell me much unless I know who the respondents were. I suspect that among the observant population (throughout its wide range), the number would be substantially larger, just based on a sampling of people I know, including most of the members of my own family.

/I'm a bit of a black sheep in this particulat regard. It's one of the reasons I appreciate the opportunity to vent here.

208 Scion9  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:30:40pm

re: #71 Killgore Trout

This is why "interfaith dialogue" makes me nervous.

Most "Interfaith Dialogue" is done by the liberal religious leadership. They are mostly leftist religious folk, and while I'm not a big fan of them the big pushers for ID and the seeming allies of the Muslim creationists are the Evangelicals. Interfaith dialogue on the part of western clergy seems actually good natured diplomacy. The Evangelicals have no real respect for other religions on the level that they would willingly invite it into their midst. It is just another wedge.

The core issue with the religion in a liberal democracy, is that most of them adhere to a Collectivist ideology. Collectivism is diametrically opposed to Individualism. The Church, God, is above man and his will.

Unfortunately most religious people don't really get this it seems. They don't analyze it, or recognize that there might be a reason that others wouldn't agree with them. They say they want individual liberty for all and that freedom is good, but in reality they want everyone to live in a way consistent with their ideals.

You see the same exact kind of behavior and mindset in secular Collectivist ideologies like Communism. You just replace the Worker's Paradise with the Church or God, and you believe all people should be free and happy, and as long as they all think correctly then they are.

That is black and white and only descriptive of the most rigid zealots. Religion is perfectly capable of coexisting within a secular society. They practice their thing, pay Cesar his due, and carry on. It is these collectivists, these Pharisees that crave power over others and believe they have, or should have the authority to dictate not only the lives of others but their very thoughts.

Most religions have some tenet in regards to attempts at proselytizing, but most don't have one that puts forth for its followers to force that belief onto others, through indoctrination or force (although I can think of one that does...). I'm perfectly happy with endangering my mortal non-existent soul by not converting. When it starts affecting my day to day life, and the integrity of my Constitution and the liberties enshrined therein is when I get upset.

I'd have to find it again, but I think it was Qaradawi that was literally railing against the dangers of "Freedom of Thought". Scary stuff.

209 Shay4l  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:31:35pm

re: #189 pingjockey

Bah. I have an 8 yr old kid and a Harley. I'm gonna be a kid till I'm 80.


Wear a helmet :o)~

210 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:32:31pm

Wolfie, Wild Turkey I do have, and plenty of it. Take what you need.

To get back on topic, Bruce Walter, the author of this article, seems to illustrate what I'm saying about lack of nerve. He clearly sees Christian faith on the wane, and this causes panic. What to do? What to do? In his case, it's to grasp at any theistic ally, and Islam seems to be the big theistic guy on the block these days. Best to ally with him, right?

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again.

211 pingjockey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:33:04pm

re: #209 Shay4l
Always. Now off to the races! The local track is hosting moonbat heads explode night aka semi tractor races!

212 Lynn B.  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:34:10pm

re: #207 Lynn B.

...denominations)

...particular

pimf ... sorry, a little under the weather tonight.

213 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:34:50pm

re: #189 pingjockey

Bah. I have an 8 yr old kid and a Harley. I'm gonna be a kid till I'm 80.

re: #209 Shay4l

Wear a helmet :o)~

SHAY is right. Wear a helmet. Those 8 year olds throw things!

214 palarson  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:35:59pm

Well, for better or worse its a six way wrestling match.. What are the rules for such a thing?

Phil

215 george slivers  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:36:15pm

"On the issue of totalitarian Darwinism, Islam and its followers may well be friends indeed."

Right on. I'd rather live in an Islamic society any day. Nothing oppresses scientific advancement more than Darwinism. Islam oppresses science as well, but to a much lesser degree.

216 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:36:50pm

Looks like another Saturday sputtering along on fumes thread. Back to work...

217 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:36:56pm

I see the village idiot has returned.

218 hazzyday  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:36:59pm

From the Bruce Walker quote in the article.

"Interestingly, the very term “re-education camp” was invented by the Nazis and the very dogma which the Nazis slavishly worshipped was Darwinian evolution. "

What Bruce says is in error.

While the Nazi's did try to use evolution as justification for breeding the perfect Aryan. They also co-opted the major religions of the time and re-worked them as a "blood religion". Was it Hess that spent time and effort in Tibet trying to track down the spiritual roots of his race? That wasn't a darwin effort.

The thrust of the argument that the Nazi machine was driven by Darwinian evolution is very very false and seems to be driven by tired minds. The nazi's received more energy from Christianity, Paganism, and Hinduism. All of which they perverted into a special SS religion and used evolution as a means to manifest their religion.

They were just taking everything they could find in science and religion and reforming them into a system that would serve them. Nazi's were to be more powerful than God or Science.

219 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:37:19pm
They say they want individual liberty for all and that freedom is good, but in reality they want everyone to live in a way consistent with their ideals.

Nothing wrong with wanting this, as long as the ideals are really grounded in truth and justice and no force is involved. You aren't telling us you're afraid of someone trying to persuade you, with no force involved, to be a better person?

220 sattv4u2  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:37:35pm

re: #217 Charles

I see the village idiot has returned.

I never left ! (oh ,, wait ,,,, not me ,, huh!?!?!?)

221 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:38:04pm

re: #215 george slivers

I'd rather live in an Islamic society any day. Nothing oppresses scientific advancement more than Darwinism. Islam oppresses science as well, but to a much lesser degree.

And the Islamic scientific gifts to the world are?

222 Annar  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:38:05pm

re: #4 zombie

Speaking of "Intellgent Design:"

I'm taking votes on whether I should go to this event tonight:

Anal Foreclosure

This is what San Francisco is like: A combination of post-post-postmodern intellectualized insanity and brutish body-orifice worship.

The anal foreclosure should give a new interpretation to the latestre: #75 zombie

My proposed solution is this:

Dissolve the public school system. Allow neighborhoods or groups or like-minded parents or co-religionists or whatever to devise their own charter schools to their own specifications, and then grant each one a base-level amount of taxpayer-funded school vouchers (calculated per student) which would allow basic scholastic functioning. (And if the parents want to individually donate to additionally fund their own charter schools, so be it). Let the market decide. Any kid can go to any schools of their choosing -- no discrimination allowed. If certain religious groups want to send their kids to their own charter schools and teach them balderdash, then let them go ahead. Meanwhile, the other parents can send their kids to good schools.

Little by little, the groups who send their kids to balderdash schools will render themselves into becoming an irrelevant underclass, as as result of their own choices, and then they can safely be ignored. This applies to both religious people who teach anti-science, and leftists who teach multicultural claptrap and their own form of Lysenkoist anti-science.

Ruin your own social groupings, fools -- not mine.

Then the meritocratic system will finally obtain, as the best will rise to the top of society's ecosystem.

Obambi 'big O' victory salute guaranteed to shore up the San Francisco vote.

223 Scion9  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:38:18pm

re: #94 Salem

That sounds nice, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Look at all of the things Islam does today that we wouldn't have expected the left to tolerate. Practically everything about Islam. And yet they do.

The ultimate irony being that if Creationism does somehow wind up in public schools, the ACLU and other Leftist attack groups will go after specifically Christian theological underpinnings to the education, leaving only Islam behind.

Given the current political climate in the country why do any of these ID nutters think that they can gain the upperhand over Islam even in a legal battlefield? If Creationism gets taught in schools, its theological underpinnings will be based upon what was written in the Qur'an, and the Bible will be barred from being taught in schools...which is exactly how it is right now with 'Exploratory Culture/World Civ' classes in public highschools.

I also don't see the left, as a community, rising up against Islamic creationism.

224 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:38:36pm

re: #210 godfrey

Wolfie, Wild Turkey I do have, and plenty of it. Take what you need.

To get back on topic, Bruce Walter, the author of this article, seems to illustrate what I'm saying about lack of nerve. He clearly sees Christian faith on the wane, and this causes panic. What to do? What to do? In his case, it's to grasp at any theistic ally, and Islam seems to be the big theistic guy on the block these days. Best to ally with him, right?

Wrong, wrong, and wrong again.

Wrong for a great many reasons.
Wrong Biblically, wrong theologically, wrong morally, wrong legally, wrong politically, wrong strategically, wrong psychologically, wrong, wrong, wrong.

Oh! Thanks for the shot!
Gobble, gobble!

225 godfrey  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:38:53pm

re: #215 george slivers

lol

George, be our guest.

226 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:40:06pm

re: #206 itellu3times

I am about half through Ken Miller's book Only A Theory. So far- I've really enjoyed his points where he says (paraphrasing), "OK- let's take ID seriously and see what we get." What we get is a bunch of nothing. No advancements- nothing. I thought it was a good position for him to take and explore because by doing so he showed just how much of a dead end ID really is.

227 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:41:10pm

re: #215 george slivers

Right on. I'd rather live in an Islamic society any day. Nothing oppresses scientific advancement more than Darwinism. Islam oppresses science as well, but to a much lesser degree.

Can we chip in and help buy you a one way ticket?

228 Annar  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:41:39pm

Sorry for my last post. Two topics got mixed up. Please ignore the quote of #75 which did not belong there.

229 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:42:55pm

re: #215 george slivers

"On the issue of totalitarian Darwinism, Islam and its followers may well be friends indeed."

Right on. I'd rather live in an Islamic society any day. Nothing oppresses scientific advancement more than Darwinism. Islam oppresses science as well, but to a much lesser degree.

george -

I shall respectfully DISAGREE. Near the beginning, Islam sought to gain knowledge, "From China if Necessary" - that was about 12-1300 years ago. Since then, the Dar-al-Islam has become an adopter, NOT an INVENTOR. Check the Saudi/Gulf Patent Office and get back to me.

-S-

230 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:42:56pm

re: #221 jcm

And the Islamic scientific gifts to the world are?

It's all in the koran!

/

231 Shay4l  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:43:13pm

re: #217 Charles

I see the village idiot has returned.

Man, I hope that's not me. What a waste of all those years reading books and studying, and...thinking.

/paranoia

232 Shay4l  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:44:40pm

Oh, never mind! I see him now.

/Not paranoid anymore

233 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:44:49pm

re: #231 Shay4l

Man, I hope that's not me. What a waste of all those years reading books and studying, and...thinking.

/paranoia

Round here I do feel like that much of the time.
;-0

234 george slivers  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:45:30pm

re: #229 Dr. Shalit

Islam doesn't promote science, it oppresses science... but to a lesser degree than darwinism.

235 Josephine  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:46:18pm

re: #71 Killgore Trout

This is why "interfaith dialogue" makes me nervous.

It's a real balancing act: bringing religion into the modern age, not preaching hatred against other groups, while maintaining the integrity of your own particular religion vs. watering it down until it is nothing but a poorly-delineated social group that is easily subsumed into any other religion. Finding the middle ground between believing that your religion is the answer and declaring all religions equal and interchangeable.

I know you're an atheist, so your answer might be to abandon all religion, but for people of faith it is a serious question right now. Some Christian denominations are virtually meaningless: they've lost their Christianity to a large extent. And it is those groups, the ones most focused on "social justice", that are most likely to equate their faith with Islam (for example).

Now, obviously, it is not only the "social justice" churches that are willing to blur the lines but also any religious grouping that has an ulterior motive: in this case, the desire to piggyback onto Islam's special victim status in order to have ID taught in schools.

The duplicitous fools!

236 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:46:44pm

re: #223 Scion9

The ultimate irony being that if Creationism does somehow wind up in public schools, the ACLU and other Leftist attack groups will go after specifically Christian theological underpinnings to the education, leaving only Islam behind.

Nonsense. The "left" is not the obstacle to teaching creationism is schools. It's the constitution and the Supreme court. You're going to have to get rid of those first. The left has nothing to do with it.

237 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:47:52pm

re: #234 george slivers

If you have an example of this "oppression" of science by "Darwinism" let's see it. Otherwise we might have to conclude you're lying.

238 wolfie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:47:57pm

re: #229 Dr. Shalit

george -

I shall respectfully DISAGREE. Near the beginning, Islam sought to gain knowledge, "From China if Necessary" - that was about 12-1300 years ago. Since then, the Dar-al-Islam has become an adopter, NOT an INVENTOR. Check the Saudi/Gulf Patent Office and get back to me.

-S-

An unkinder way to put it is that, when Islam at last saturated the highly advanced native cultures of Persia, the Indus Valley, Byzantium, etc., the well of wisdom dried up.

239 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:48:02pm

re: #234 george slivers

Islam doesn't promote science, it oppresses science... but to a lesser degree than darwinism.

Pray tell- how does evolution oppress science?

240 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:48:33pm

re: #234 george slivers

Islam doesn't promote science, it oppresses science... but to a lesser degree than darwinism.

HAHAHAHA! *gasp* HAHAHAHAHA *gasp* HAHAHAHAHA

*wipes tear*

Do you attend Westboro Baptist by chance?

241 Miss Trixie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:49:00pm

re: #227 Sharmuta

Can we chip in and help buy you a one way ticket?

*cheers*

I've got an extra $10 - where's the kitty?

242 Miss Trixie  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:50:37pm

re: #240 jcm

HAHAHAHA! *gasp* HAHAHAHAHA *gasp* HAHAHAHAHA

*wipes tear*

Do you attend Westboro Baptist by chance?

*tee-hee*

*snicker*

243 A. van Hilten  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:51:25pm
Will the atheists of Leftism stand up as firmly against Moslems as they do against calm, reasonable and good-spirited Christians and Jews? It is an issue worth testing.

It depends on what they mean by "reasonable and good-spirited Christians and Jews":

Suspect in Colorado anti-evolution death threats case is missing

From Wikinews, the free news source you can write!

Current revision (unreviewed)Jump to: navigation, search

Saturday, July 21, 2007

Young Earth Creationist Menachem "Michael" Korn, suspected of sending death threats to various biology faculty and others at the University of Colorado at Boulder, is apparently missing or on the lam. Although the police said they will not name the individual in question until the person is arrested, previous reports and comments by faculty and staff at the university made it clear that Korn is the man in question.

Action was taken recently after the threatening behavior escalated and the letters passed beyond being a nuisance. It had gotten to the point where one graduate student and one faculty member were scared about entering the department out of concern for their safety. Korn, a former Messianic Jew who now self-identifies as Christian, allegedly sent various anti-evolution letters to faculty at the university.

244 Shay4l  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:52:38pm

re: #234 george slivers

Islam doesn't promote science, it oppresses science... but to a lesser degree than darwinism.


Whoo, I don't know how much Darwinism oppresses science. It seems that there's a helluva lot of science going on all around biology.

Don't try any science that the mullahs don't approve of, though. That's a beheadin'!

245 paradox42  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:53:33pm

re: #215 george slivers

The plane ticket is on me. So where to, the Magic Kingdom, Syria, Iran, Hamasastan?

246 george slivers  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:54:20pm

re: #239 Sharmuta

Pray tell- how does evolution oppress science?

Go see 'Expelled'. If that doesn't open your eyes then they must be glued shut.

247 palarson  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:54:49pm

re: #222 Annar

You obviously didn't see the movie Idoicracy...

248 Basho  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:56:14pm

re: #246 george slivers

Go see 'Expelled'. If that doesn't open your eyes then they must be glued shut.

QED

/s

249 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:56:39pm

OK Everyone -

Species EVOLVE, whether by Darwinism OR The "FREE WILL" allowed by G-d. Exhibit 1. The "Polar Bear" - A BEAR - adapted to live in Northern Latitudes. Much as the Inuit is a HUMAN - adapted to live in Northern Latitudes. Who/what do all y'all give Credit to for these adaptations? Discussion?

-S-

250 Killgore Trout  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:56:40pm

re: #246 george slivers

Enjoy all you freedom under sharia, kuffar.

251 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:57:34pm

re: #238 wolfie

"wolfie" -

OH WELL!

-S-

252 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:57:36pm

re: #246 george slivers

That's a crappy answer. You don't have a real answer for me, do you? I think the best answer you can give me is to pay to see propaganda because you have no clue what you're talking about.

253 Josephine  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:57:56pm

I also wonder who Bruce Walker is, how much influence he has and with whom.

254 george slivers  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:58:37pm

re: #244 Shay4l

Whoo, I don't know how much Darwinism oppresses science. It seems that there's a helluva lot of science going on all around biology.

Don't try any science that the mullahs don't approve of, though. That's a beheadin'!


Actually, scientist are continually making discoveries that are best explained by ID. Unfortunately, we have three options:
1) Suppress our findings to avoid persecution.
2) Report our findings as they are and face academic suicide.
3) Distort our data and say that it is best explained by the "Darwin-of-the-gaps" theory.

255 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:59:34pm

re: #254 george slivers

"..scientist are continually making discoveries that are best explained by ID."
Name one.

256 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 5:59:39pm

re: #254 george slivers

You're a liar.

257 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:00:06pm

re: #254 george slivers

Actually, scientist are continually making discoveries that are best explained by ID. Unfortunately, we have three options:
1) Suppress our findings to avoid persecution.
2) Report our findings as they are and face academic suicide.
3) Distort our data and say that it is best explained by the "Darwin-of-the-gaps" theory.

You're one of the most brazen liars ever seen at LGF. And that's saying something.

258 paradox42  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:00:27pm

re: #254 george slivers

If you're a scientist, then I'm the King of England.

259 Dr. Shalit  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:00:47pm

re: #252 Sharmuta

"Sharm" -

The MOTTO under MY Family Shield is - "IF IT'S FREE, IT'S FOR ME!" Go from there.

-S-

260 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:00:53pm

re: #258 paradox42

If you're a scientist, then I'm the King of England.

LOL- and I'm a saudi princess!

261 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:01:37pm

"George Slivers" is a classic troll, folks. This is probably not even a real creationist, but someone who's getting his rocks off by baiting LGF readers.

Consider this a heads-up.

262 Shay4l  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:02:00pm

re: #254 george slivers

Actually, scientist are continually making discoveries that are best explained by ID.

Please do not read or respond to any comments I may make in the future. I do not agree that ID should be taught in schools.

Thanks!

263 hazzyday  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:02:53pm

re: #243 A. van Hilten

Korn looks to be mental there. We might be able to expect him to move on into Wicca once his Christian faith leaves him, then into Atheism once he mistakes a Dawkins book for a Wiccan tome at borders.

264 Jim in Virginia  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:03:29pm

Evening all.
Womens beach volleyball on. It is starting to rain in Beijing.
Love the outfits.

265 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:05:45pm

re: #254 george slivers

Actually, scientist are continually making discoveries that are best explained by ID. Unfortunately, we have three options:
1) Suppress our findings to avoid persecution.
2) Report our findings as they are and face academic suicide.
3) Distort our data and say that it is best explained by the "Darwin-of-the-gaps" theory.

How does science suppress something which cannot be proven by scientific means.

Science recognizes that there are things it cannot address. Such as a creator.

That is not suppression, that is recognition of the boundaries science.

What is needed is the recognition of those boundaries coming from the creation perspective. That regardless of our beliefs matters of faith cannot be proved. (hint that's what faith is)

266 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:06:14pm

re: #261 Charles

"George Slivers" is a classic troll, folks. This is probably not even a real creationist, but someone who's getting his rocks off by baiting LGF readers.

Consider this a heads-up.

Lighting the BBQ!

267 hazzyday  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:06:51pm

re: #261 Charles

"George Slivers" is a classic troll, folks. This is probably not even a real creationist, but someone who's getting his rocks off by baiting LGF readers.

Consider this a heads-up.

Jeppo's Grandfather

268 Jim in Virginia  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:07:03pm

re: #266 jcm
Just GAZE. Eventually they get bored.

269 A. van Hilten  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:07:32pm

re: #263 hazzyday

Korn looks to be mental there. We might be able to expect him to move on into Wicca once his Christian faith leaves him, then into Atheism once he mistakes a Dawkins book for a Wiccan tome at borders.

No True Scotsman much?

270 jcm  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:09:33pm

re: #268 Jim in Virginia

Just GAZE. Eventually they get bored.

But I'm HUNGRY!
:-(

271 Etaoin Shrdlu  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:10:08pm
the very dogma which the Nazis slavishly worshipped was Darwinian evolution.

So, who wrote this? A "Darwinist"?

And how can marriages be made most beneficial? --that is a question which I put to you, because I see in your house dogs for hunting, and of the nobler sort of birds not a few. Now, I beseech you, do tell me, have you ever attended to their pairing and breeding?
In what particulars?
Why, in the first place, although they are all of a good sort, are not some better than others?
True.
And do you breed from them all indifferently, or do you take care to breed from the best only?
From the best.
And do you take the oldest or the youngest, or only those of ripe age?
I choose only those of ripe age.
And if care was not taken in the breeding, your dogs and birds would greatly deteriorate?
Certainly.
And the same of horses and animals in general?
Undoubtedly.
Good heavens! my dear friend, I said, what consummate skill will our rulers need if the same principle holds of the human species!
Certainly, the same principle holds; but why does this involve any particular skill?

Because, I said, our rulers will often have to practise upon the body corporate with medicines. Now you know that when patients do not require medicines, but have only to be put under a regimen, the inferior sort of practitioner is deemed to be good enough; but when medicine has to be given, then the doctor should be more of a man.
That is quite true, he said; but to what are you alluding?
I mean, I replied, that our rulers will find a considerable dose of falsehood and deceit necessary for the good of their subjects: we were saying that the use of all these things regarded as medicines might be of advantage.
And we were very right.
And this lawful use of them seems likely to be often needed in the regulations of marriages and births.
How so?
Why, I said, the principle has been already laid down that the best of either sex should be united with the best as often, and the inferior with the inferior, as seldom as possible; and that they should rear the offspring of the one sort of union, but not of the other, if the flock is to be maintained in first-rate condition. Now these goings on must be a secret which the rulers only know, or there will be a further danger of our herd, as the guardians may be termed, breaking out into rebellion.

That's Plato promoting eugenics by the state, 2200 years before On the Origin of Species.

272 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:10:20pm

re: #270 jcm

But I'm HUNGRY!
:-(

You didn't get any birthday cake?

273 the phantom  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:10:30pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

I guess there are some on the right who don't really have a problem with the state being a nanny- just so long as it's their pet cause. How very sad.

As Ayn Rand put it:
"The conservatives want freedom to act in the material realm; they tend to oppose government control of production, of industry, of trade, of business, of physical goods, of material wealth. But they advocate government control of man's spirit, i.e., man's conciousness; they advocate the State's right to impose censorship, to determine moral values, to create and enforce a governmental establishment of morality, to rule the intellect. The liberals want freedom to act in the spiritual realm; they oppose censorship, they oppose government control of ideas, of the arts, of the press, of education (note their concern with "academic freedom"). But they advocate government control of material production, of business, of employment, of wages, of profits, of all physical property -- they advocate it all the way down to total expropriation.
The conservatives see man as a body freely roaming the earth, building sand piles or factories -- with an electronic computer inside his skull, controlled from Washington. The liberals see man as a soul freewheeling to the farthest reaches of the universe -- but wearing chains from nose to toes when he crosses the street to buy a loaf of bread.
Yet it is the conservatives who are primarily religionists, who proclaim the superiority of the soul over the body, who represent what I call the "mystics of spirit." And it is the liberals who are predominantly materialists, who regard man as an aggregate of meat, and who represent what I call the "mystics of muscle."
This is merely a paradox, not a contradiction: each camp wants to control the realm it regards as metaphysically important; each grants freedom only to the activities it despises. . . . Neither camp holds freedom as a value. The conservatives want to rule man's conciousness; the liberals, his body."

274 mossley  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:11:01pm
Do Moslems believe in Darwin?


Interesting way of phrasing that question. Is he trying to imply that belief in Darwin is equivalent to religion, as if evolution is a matter of faith instead of fact? Or does he actually doubt that Mr. Darwin was a real, living breathing person? Given the nature of the rant, I'd say either is possible.

275 Kulhwch  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:11:53pm
Once Moslems see that modernity need not mean the death of God, then they may begin to view Christianity and Judaism more benignly. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.” On the issue of totalitarian Darwinism, Islam and its followers may well be friends indeed.

Just thinking of Heath Ledger as the Joker being the personification of terrorists ...

Maroni to Batman: "You've got rules.  The Joker — he ain't got no rules.  No-one's gonna give him up for you."

Alfred to Batman: "Some men just want to see the world burn."

Moslems, by their own admission, traditionally only make friends as long as it takes them to get ready to conquer their 'friends'.

}:P     [One cannot make friends with monsters.  It would be a mistake to try.]

276 Pastorius  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:11:59pm

#65 Kilgore Trout,

... if I say, "If you draw that cartoon Muslims will riot." I'm not implying that all Muslims will riot. Not even the majority will riot. Only a very small portion will. The sentence is still grammatically correct. There will be riots and Muslims will attend. It just gets repetitive defending against these strawmem and people use it as a weapon.I know what I meant and you did too. If I tell you all Christians are doing something you'll know it because I'll use the "all". Otherwise I'm speaking generally.

The difference is that you can't find Muslims who are willing to condemn the behavior of rioting about the cartoons. I don't think you can find no mainstream Muslims political organization, academic institution, media outlet, or government of any significant size, anywhere in the world, which will condemn rioting about Mohammed cartoons.

There is a vast difference (in terms of proportion) between the somewhat sizable Christian groups who support wacky ideas, and the abject totalitarianism of Islamic insanity.

277 Killian Bundy  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:12:33pm

Iranian refuses to race Israeli swimmer

"This isn't the first time this has happened and it doesn't surprise me anymore," Olympic Committee of Israel General Secretary Efraim Zinger told The Jerusalem Post. "Politics takes precedence over sport with the Iranians and the Olympic spirit is as far from them as east is far from west.

"My heart goes out to the Iranian athletes. In the Athens Olympics one of their sportsmen, who was a gold medal favorite, had to pull out because he was drawn against an Israeli.

"There's no place for this kind of behavior in the Olympic movement and it's a shame it continues."

/no Games in Tehran anytime soon

278 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:14:40pm

re: #106 straitcircle

Now Islamists have all the US money from our oil purchases, they hire lobbyists to call for special privileges in schools, because they are minorities in the US white world. So the issue is not Islam it is Christianity. I think Obama, McCain, Clinton, Bush, etc.. were Christians, and they must believe in Creationism if they are Christians. I guess that is bad. Maybe if we kick all the Christians out of the US we can have our atheist world, just how we like it. Lord knows people cannot think for themselves, so must be affirmative in what is taught in education, least we hurt the children's minds.

Are you aware how incoherent and full of hatred this post is? Do you care?

279 george slivers  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:14:45pm

re: #261 Charles

"George Slivers" is a classic troll, folks. This is probably not even a real creationist, but someone who's getting his rocks off by baiting LGF readers.

Consider this a heads-up.

Wow! Such pompous hostility. It is one thing to criticize someone you disagree with, it is another thing to belittle them and not allow them a voice.

I expected more from a "conservative" blog.

280 Pastorius  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:15:22pm

#69 doppelganglander

I tend to avoid the ID threads because I'm just not that interested in the topic. The Disco folks seemed stupid but mostly harmless. Now, I'm seriously concerned. Anyone who would make an alliance with Islamofascists for any reason is an enemy of America.


Good one, doppelganger. It's a lot like those who are willing, out of a sense of expedience, to make an alliance with Euro Ethnic Nationalists.

It's apalling, and it shows that these people do not really believe in the moral system they profess to believe in.

281 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:15:29pm

That's enough out of the Slivers troll. Blocked.

282 hazzyday  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:21:38pm

re: #278 Charles

I updinged cause this made me laugh.

"Are you aware how incoherent and full of hatred this post is? Do you care?"

I hope straitcircle digests it and replies.

283 Basho  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:27:45pm

re: #281 Charles

That's enough out of the Slivers troll. Blocked.

WOOHOO!
He was so annoying. I remember trying to debate his nonsense on a thread a while back. Glad to see him gone.

284 mossley  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:29:03pm

re: #281 Charles

That's enough out of the Slivers troll. Blocked.


You have amazing patience, given that he never contributed anything to the debate. It's one thing to honestly believe a position and try to defend it, but he was obviously getting off on the attention.

285 Dianna  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:29:52pm

re: #281 Charles

That's enough out of the Slivers troll. Blocked.

Yay!

286 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:34:35pm

re: #266 jcm

Lighting the BBQ!

Mmmmm! Gamy buttocks!

287 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:35:07pm

re: #264 Jim in Virginia

Evening all.
Womens beach volleyball on. It is starting to rain in Beijing.
Love the outfits.

Whoa! Women's beach volleyball! How did I miss that?
See ya laterz.

288 paradox42  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:35:52pm

re: #277 Killian Bundy

They know they'll lose. Wusses.

289 Steffan  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:38:29pm

re: #67 freetoken

Slightly off topic... but some news perhaps missed because of the concentration on Ossetia:

Fatal blasts hit Chinese province

The muslim Uighurs are not going to go peacefully into the night....

The PLA will be more than happy to put their lights out permanently once all of the foreign journalists have left the country. It remains to be seen whether they will use WMDs.

To quote Frank, I'd say the odds might be 50-50....

290 rawmuse  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:40:19pm

I am back from choir practice, where I saw, yes, lots of McCain bumper stickers. In San Francisco.

291 StinkHammer  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:45:02pm

re: #281 Charles

That's enough out of the Slivers troll. Blocked.

THANK YOU.

292 mossley  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:48:24pm

re: #278 Charles

Are you aware how incoherent and full of hatred this post is? Do you care?


Hee. I actually started to reply to that post, and then got a headache just trying to parse it. It's hard to have a reasonable conversation with someone who can't write a coherent post.

293 Bobibutu  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:49:22pm

re: #290 rawmuse

I am back from choir practice, where I saw, yes, lots of McCain bumper stickers. In San Francisco.

Well now - with Cindy getting on the ballot this should be fun.

294 RightOnTheLeftCoast  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:54:38pm

re: #292 mossley

Hee. I actually started to reply to that post, and then got a headache just trying to parse it. It's hard to have a reasonable conversation with someone who can't write a coherent post.


I know what you mean... it's like trying to make sense out of a typical off-the-cuff Obamaism.

295 lostlakehiker  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 6:59:30pm
Darwinism as a new, awful religion


Science is not a religion. It's a way of honestly approaching physical reality and trying to understand it.

The thing that drives otherwise reasonable people into the creationist camp is the facile and arrogant "logic" that says that since man is evolved from apes, man is nothing more than a mere ape, bigger brained perhaps, but fundamentally just an animal.

An honest look at that "logic" notes that if man is an animal, (and we are not mineral or vegetable!), then the word "animal" includes all the amazing people around us. The phrase "just an animal" means, halfway through the logic, nothing more or less than "animal, counting humans as animals", but then, in an illogical twist, it suddenly means, "animal, that is, subhuman. Incapable of reason, complex toolmaking, or any refined or noble qualities."

Not surprisingly, many people object to being rated as subhuman.

296 Purple Prose  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 7:19:59pm

The only way non-Muslim creationists have a chance is by piggybacking on the Islamic bandwagon. Only Muslims have privileged status to advance their supremacist agenda: they are privileged beyond the mere morsels thrown at multiculturalism. No other "minority" group or other religious group, be it Buddhists, Rosicrucians or Zoroastrians, has such power beyond their numbers. No other group has so much money, is so organized and can use the threat of violence behind their "victimhood" so effectively.

Creationism and ID is dead in the water. But if they hook up with Islamists, they may be able to push forward their agenda while losing their souls. It seems that some of them at least don't care about their souls and will deal with anyone to advance a narrow agenda. Things are fragmented into little agendas/obsessions, and people act to advance an agenda even if ultimately it compromises their whole moral outlook and weakens the power they have.

We live in interesting times. Either the rational will prevail or the irrational.

297 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 7:22:38pm

re: #98 Hucbald

Any Christian group that would align with Moslems is not Christian.

No True Scotsman fallacy lately?

298 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 7:29:17pm

re: #106 straitcircle

Now Islamists have all the US money from our oil purchases, they hire lobbyists to call for special privileges in schools, because they are minorities in the US white world. So the issue is not Islam it is Christianity. I think Obama, McCain, Clinton, Bush, etc.. were Christians, and they must believe in Creationism if they are Christians. I guess that is bad. Maybe if we kick all the Christians out of the US we can have our atheist world, just how we like it. Lord knows people cannot think for themselves, so must be affirmative in what is taught in education, least we hurt the children's minds.

Umm...Charles has already posted declarations by both Obama and McCain that they accept evolutionary theory as sound and valid science. They are just two of those people whom, like more than a billion Roman Catholics, you say do not, even cannot, exist; Christians who accept the empirical evidence for evolution.

Your Disco Institute Wedge Strategy attempt to divert the discussion from empirical evidence vs. no empirical evidence and testability vs. no testability to Good Ol' God vs. Bad Ol' Atheists doesn't friggin' wash here.

299 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 7:44:22pm

re: #215 george slivers

"On the issue of totalitarian Darwinism, Islam and its followers may well be friends indeed."

Right on. I'd rather live in an Islamic society any day. Nothing oppresses scientific advancement more than Darwinism. Islam oppresses science as well, but to a much lesser degree.

Well, sine genetically engineering bacteria to produce insulin and rice to product Vitamin A doesn't trip your pseudoscientific trigger, feel free to fly on over; there are plenty of such societies available for you right now. Societies that consider innovation to be a sin. Societies whose 'scientists' have actually written articles advocating the harnessing of djinn (Genie) power to meet energy needs. Good luck with that.

300 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 7:50:53pm

re: #234 george slivers

Islam doesn't promote science, it oppresses science... but to a lesser degree than darwinism.

Geez; what a nimrod maroon! Evolutionary theory, as framed by the combination of Darwin and Mendel, and utilizing the physical substrate DNA found by Watson & Crick, IS science; at least it's the major contribution yet made by the life sciences. It has been empirically evidentially supported, according to the scientific method and the verification principle, for 150 years!

Can IQ actually admit of negative integers?

301 mad doc  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 7:51:35pm

Looks like "evolution" just got a whole lot more complicated.
[Link: www.junkdna.com...]
I find it impossible to believe that this amount of information came about randomly.

302 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 7:53:53pm

re: #246 george slivers

Go see 'Expelled'. If that doesn't open your eyes then they must be glued shut.

That Michael Moore propaganda doppelganger has been picked to more pieces here than an industrial size lego set.

303 Naso Tang  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 7:54:52pm

Do I detect that the crazies are getting crazier? Used to be that we had some actual believers in creationism posting here (in these threads) with sincerity that one could attempt to respond to with manners and reason. Now it seems the only contrarians seem to be trolls or crazies. Has someone been spreading the word on the blogs that this place is not worth the effort, or what?

304 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 8:01:30pm

re: #301 mad doc

Looks like "evolution" just got a whole lot more complicated.
[Link: www.junkdna.com...]
I find it impossible to believe that this amount of information came about randomly.

It didn't; it was shaped, over billions of years, by nonrandom environmental selection pressures.

It'll be interesting to see whether this guy pans out, or whether it'll be a replay of Linus Pauling when, after outstanding work and two Nobel Prizes, he went off the deep end in his old age and claimed that Vitamin C cured everything.

305 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 8:03:53pm

re: #254 george slivers

Actually, scientist are continually making discoveries that are best explained by ID. Unfortunately, we have three options:
1) Suppress our findings to avoid persecution.
2) Report our findings as they are and face academic suicide.
3) Distort our data and say that it is best explained by the "Darwin-of-the-gaps" theory.

And these discoveries are...? And they are best explained by metaphysical supervenience into physical affairs (the 'Hand of God')because...?

306 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 8:08:04pm

re: #279 george slivers

Wow! Such pompous hostility. It is one thing to criticize someone you disagree with, it is another thing to belittle them and not allow them a voice.

I expected more from a "conservative" blog.

This is not a conservative blog. it is an anti-idiotarian blog. And you are an idiotarian. Or else, just a plain old idiot.

307 Naso Tang  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 8:08:43pm

re: #304 Salamantis

It's constantly surprising (how one can be constantly surprised by the same thing/?) how one always finds the same attempt to allude to gaps or complexities in the brain of the poster as proof of a universal truth.

I must suffer from a similar affliction, but I hope on a higher plain.

308 Josephine  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 8:10:29pm

Sal, if you're still here, did you see the evolution survey I posted in the links under "Science"? I thought you might enjoy taking part in that one.

309 Tigger2005  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 8:36:39pm

Do not feed the troll called george slivers. I made that mistake once. It is not here to contribute to the discussion, it has no other purpose but to bait people and then claim it is being attacked. It has already been told that LGF is not necessarily a "conservative" blog, for example, yet it repeats the claim again.

Unfed trolls eventually crawl back under their bridges and go into hibernation.

310 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 8:45:32pm

re: #309 Tigger2005

George is no more. He's ceased to be. He's expired and gone to meet his maker. He's a stiff. Bereft of life, he rests in peace. If his posts weren't nailed to the thread they'd be pushing up daisies. His metabolic processes are now 'istory. He's off the twig. He's kicked the bucket, he's suffled off his mortal coil, run down the curtain, and joined the bleedin' choir invisible. This is an ex-Slivers.

311 mad doc  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 8:49:38pm

Salamantis:
"It didn't; it was shaped, over billions of years, by nonrandom environmental selection pressures."

A non-random selection pressure would be like the breeding of dogs or horses by man. What do you mean by non-random environmental selection pressures?
You've got 3.6 billion years to play with which isn't enough time to create the complexity involved by random mutation, even if selection was guided.
I think your precious theory of Darwinian evolution is dying a slow and painful death.

312 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 8:50:08pm

Oh, for Pete's sake.

313 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:05:45pm

re: #311 mad doc

I recommend reading David Hume's An Inquiry Concerning Human Understanding. Dembski and the rest of the Discovery Institute people have yet to come up with a successful counter-argument to Hume.

314 mad doc  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:19:16pm

re: #313 jaunte

I recommend reading "In the Beginning." by Benedict XV1.

315 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:22:56pm

re: #314 mad doc

I recommend reading "In the Beginning." by Benedict XV1.

Yeah, but you have the piercing intellect of a goldfish.

316 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:23:00pm

This issue is really getting thorny.

On the one hand, I cannot -- as a committed Christian creationist -- get very excited about joining forces with Muslims. (In fact: That notion is obviously suicidal for Christians in the long run.)

On the other, the increasing militancy (a militancy that exudes a scornful hostility towards creationists) on the part of evolutionists -- as evidenced by the likes of Hitchens, AllahPundit, and Charles Johnson -- shows me that I have no friends there, either.

We are becoming politically balkanized these days, or so it seems from my little corner.

I fear that militant Islam may be excellently positioned to come out on top of this current state of chaos.

317 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:25:22pm

re: #316 gunjam

This issue is really getting thorny.

On the one hand, I cannot -- as a committed Christian creationist -- get very excited about joining forces with Muslims. (In fact: That notion is obviously suicidal for Christians in the long run.)

On the other, the increasing militancy (a militancy that exudes a scornful hostility towards creationists) on the part of evolutionists -- as evidenced by the likes of Hitchens, AllahPundit, and Charles Johnson -- shows me that I have no friends there, either.

We are becoming politically balkanized these days, or so it seems from my little corner.

I fear that militant Islam may be excellently positioned to come out on top of this current state of chaos.


You, sir, are scum.

318 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:27:56pm

"...in the long run..."

What a frikking maggot...An embarrassment to Christians and humanity in general.

319 mad doc  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:28:33pm

re: #316 gunjam

I agree. The evolutionists here seem to hate creationists with a passion. Or anyone who doesn't believe in evolution, for that matter

320 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:28:45pm

re: #316 gunjam

This issue is really getting thorny.

On the one hand, I cannot -- as a committed Christian creationist -- get very excited about joining forces with Muslims. (In fact: That notion is obviously suicidal for Christians in the long run.)

On the other, the increasing militancy (a militancy that exudes a scornful hostility towards creationists) on the part of evolutionists -- as evidenced by the likes of Hitchens, AllahPundit, and Charles Johnson -- shows me that I have no friends there, either.

We are becoming politically balkanized these days, or so it seems from my little corner.

I fear that militant Islam may be excellently positioned to come out on top of this current state of chaos.

If you're really that blindly opposed to science, I think you'll find all the allies you want among radical Islamists.

321 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:32:23pm

re: #319 mad doc

I think you're exaggerating. I gave you a book recommendation, and will accept your counter-recommendation in good spirit.

322 mad doc  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:35:40pm

re: #320 Charles

Charles, with all due respect, I think it is you that has been blinded, by science.

323 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:35:46pm

re: #311 mad doc

Salamantis:
"It didn't; it was shaped, over billions of years, by nonrandom environmental selection pressures."

A non-random selection pressure would be like the breeding of dogs or horses by man. What do you mean by non-random environmental selection pressures?
You've got 3.6 billion years to play with which isn't enough time to create the complexity involved by random mutation, even if selection was guided.
I think your precious theory of Darwinian evolution is dying a slow and painful death.

I mean that the environment selects in directions. Warmer environments select for greater tolerance to warmth; the same thing, in the opposite direction, for colder environments. The same for wetter and drier ones, and for ecologies that offer this food source, or that one, or have these predators, or those, or differing parasites or diseases.

324 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:38:54pm

re: #316 gunjam

This issue is really getting thorny.

On the one hand, I cannot -- as a committed Christian creationist -- get very excited about joining forces with Muslims. (In fact: That notion is obviously suicidal for Christians in the long run.)

On the other, the increasing militancy (a militancy that exudes a scornful hostility towards creationists) on the part of evolutionists -- as evidenced by the likes of Hitchens, AllahPundit, and Charles Johnson -- shows me that I have no friends there, either.

We are becoming politically balkanized these days, or so it seems from my little corner.

I fear that militant Islam may be excellently positioned to come out on top of this current state of chaos.

I refuse to join hands with eurofascists in order to counter Islamofascists; likewise, I refuse to join hands with Christian totalitarian fundamentalist literalists in order to counter Muslim totalitarian fundamentalist literalists.

325 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:40:39pm

re: #322 mad doc

Charles, with all due respect, I think it is you that has been blinded, by science.

I feel sorry for you.

326 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:42:39pm

Every claim of a miraculous event carries with it some evidence on which the claim is based. Though these claims are extraordinary, they are factual claims, and require supporting factual evidence. We believe on the basis of some evidence, even if the evidence is no more than the testimony of witnesses to the purported miracle.
Our only guide concerning evidence of factual claims is experience, or in other words, empirical observation. The credibility of a miraculous claim made today (Intelligent Design) will stand or fall on the empirical evidence available.

327 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:45:16pm

re: #322 mad doc

Charles, with all due respect, I think it is you that has been blinded, by science.

Science doesn't blind; it spends all its time striving to see what is genuinely there, regardless of what it ends up viewing, and has the various viewers check out each others' viewed vistas for errors of vision. Religion postulates the picture, then selects the paints, and demands lockstep adherence from its painters. In the final analysis, only one of them is interested in apprehending reality as it in fact actually is; the other demands that its particular fantasy be illegitimately reified.

328 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:48:08pm

re: #319 mad doc

I agree. The evolutionists here seem to hate creationists with a passion. Or anyone who doesn't believe in evolution, for that matter

I will admit that willful and belligerent ignorance welded to self-righteous arrogance causes me dismay.

329 mad doc  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:50:14pm

re: #321 jaunte

I was serious. It's a great book. I won't have time to read the book you recommended. It seems to be a book about how to think. I think I know how to think. In any case at my age, I don't think I will change.

I accepted evolution ever since I can remember. It posed no problems for me as a Catholic. However I think the evidence is now firmly against it since we have learned about the inner workings of the cell and DNA as information.

330 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:50:57pm

re: #314 mad doc

I recommend reading "In the Beginning." by Benedict XV1.

I recommend your recognizing that the Roman Catholic Church accepts evolutionary theory as valid, sound and solid science, and accepts the Biblical Genesis account of creation as parable and metaphor.

331 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:53:24pm

re: #329 mad doc

I was serious. It's a great book. I won't have time to read the book you recommended. It seems to be a book about how to think. I think I know how to think. In any case at my age, I don't think I will change.

I accepted evolution ever since I can remember. It posed no problems for me as a Catholic. However I think the evidence is now firmly against it since we have learned about the inner workings of the cell and DNA as information.

The artifatual retroviral DNA sequence evidence statistically entails, to a probabilistically prohibitive degree, that humans and great apes evolutionarily diverged from common ancestors several million years ago. There's no getting around it.

332 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:53:36pm

re: #319 mad doc

I agree. The evolutionists here seem to hate creationists with a passion. Or anyone who doesn't believe in evolution, for that matter

I think you're sorely mistaken and have it completely backwards. Just read the entire article linked above, and you will see it is creationists who hate people who don't agree with them- to the point they're willing to make deals with islamic fundamentalists. They see an ally in people who would subjugate us all! If that's not hateful, what is?! They can't tolerate evolution, but they'll tolerate islamic fundamentalists, and you want to call US haters? That's really messed up.

333 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:53:46pm

artifactual...PIMF

334 Jim D  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:55:04pm

re: #326 jaunte

The credibility of a miraculous claim made today (Intelligent Design) will stand or fall on the empirical evidence available.

Actually, this is not true. ID is not a real scientific theory that can be falsified.

335 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:57:16pm

re: #332 Sharmuta

I think you're sorely mistaken and have it completely backwards. Just read the entire article linked above, and you will see it is creationists who hate people who don't agree with them- to the point they're willing to make deals with islamic fundamentalists. They see an ally in people who would subjugate us all! If that's not hateful, what is?! They can't tolerate evolution, but they'll tolerate islamic fundamentalists, and you want to call US haters? That's really messed up.

It's classic projection turnspeak.

Our feelings toward them are more akin to pity for them, since we clearly see the dogmatic lockbox in which they have imprisoned their brains, laced with resentment that they would attempt to abuse the public high school system as a tool with which to indoctrinate impressionable youth into their empirically falsified follies.

336 mad doc  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:58:41pm

re: #323 Salamantis

Yes. But I would call that adaptation. That is, minimal, if any, change to the genome. Also, there are examples of new species having originated alongside other similar species without geographical isolation.

337 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:59:14pm

re: #334 Jim D

Well, yes. What I'm saying is that they have to bring some evidence to the table, it's not enough to just collect a ragbag of various 'gaps' and accusations of prejudice against believers, and say that "Darwinism" is over.
Even miracles have their eyewitnesses and chroniclers, otherwise, they wouldn't be believed.

338 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 9:59:29pm

re: #320 Charles

If you're really that blindly opposed to science, I think you'll find all the allies you want among radical Islamists.

Actually, I am not opposed to science at all -- but I am opposed to what I view as the artificially truncated definition of science for which you advocate.

And, no, I have already stated above that I am not interested in allies among the radical Islamists.

In fact, as a man who has seen his son and only child go off to combat twice -- with his blessing -- against radical Islamists, your comment seems a tad bit illogical.

And once again, let me repeat that -- without the presence of the significant number of Christians-cum-creationists populating our country's combat units -- we would not be the successful fighting force we are.

As I have stated previously in this forum: Christian creationists sign up for the Army and Marines to fight AGAINST the Islamists, whereas the Islamists sign up for al-Qaeda and Hezbollah to fight against Americans.

339 mad doc  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:01:13pm

Sorry, Got to go now. It's teatime.

340 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:02:59pm

re: #324 Salamantis

I refuse to join hands with eurofascists in order to counter Islamofascists; likewise, I refuse to join hands with Christian totalitarian fundamentalist literalists in order to counter Muslim totalitarian fundamentalist literalists.

I respect your strong stand for your (incorrect, in my view) beliefs.

But... please remind me ... how am I a totalitarian again?

341 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:03:45pm

re: #336 mad doc

Yes. But I would call that adaptation. That is, minimal, if any, change to the genome. Also, there are examples of new species having originated alongside other similar species without geographical isolation.

This misunderstanding is based upon a misconstrual similar to the one held between microevolution and macroevolution.

When enough microevolutionary distinctions accumulate, the divergent populations can no longer interbreed and produce fertile offspring, and later on, cannot produce even sterile progeny. Thus microevolution and macroevolution are not essentially different, but distinctions of degree on an evolutionary continuum.

And of course new species can exploit the sdame or different niches in an overall ecology, though I would insist that they evolved to be able to do so from precursor species rather than originated as is, which is the creationists' default postion on ALL species.

342 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:03:48pm

re: #329 mad doc

However I think the evidence is now firmly against it since we have learned about the inner workings of the cell and DNA as information.

Nonsense! Explain Human Chromosome #2. Explain the beta-globin pseudogene. Explain the GLO gene.

343 Jim D  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:05:27pm

re: #338 gunjam

Actually, I am not opposed to science at all -- but I am opposed to what I view as the artificially truncated definition of science for which you advocate.


You mean science sans magic? That's not just Charles. That what all scientists adhere to.

344 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:07:40pm

re: #332 Sharmuta

I think you're sorely mistaken and have it completely backwards. Just read the entire article linked above, and you will see it is creationists who hate people who don't agree with them- to the point they're willing to make deals with islamic fundamentalists. They see an ally in people who would subjugate us all! If that's not hateful, what is?! They can't tolerate evolution, but they'll tolerate islamic fundamentalists, and you want to call US haters? That's really messed up.

Look: not all creationists want to make an alliance with Islamists -- myself included.

345 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:08:19pm

re: #343 Jim D

You mean science sans magic? That's not just Charles. That what all scientists adhere to.

Factually incorrect.

346 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:08:27pm

re: #338 gunjam

Actually, I am not opposed to science at all -- but I am opposed to what I view as the artificially truncated definition of science for which you advocate.

And, no, I have already stated above that I am not interested in allies among the radical Islamists.

In fact, as a man who has seen his son and only child go off to combat twice -- with his blessing -- against radical Islamists, your comment seems a tad bit illogical.

And once again, let me repeat that -- without the presence of the significant number of Christians-cum-creationists populating our country's combat units -- we would not be the successful fighting force we are.

As I have stated previously in this forum: Christian creationists sign up for the Army and Marines to fight AGAINST the Islamists, whereas the Islamists sign up for al-Qaeda and Hezbollah to fight against Americans.

You're only opposed to the science that you view as empirically contradicting your particular creation myth.

And if the price we have to pay for creationists signing up in the military is to have everyone's kids indoctrinated into creationist mythology in public high school science class, you can just stay the fuck outta the recruiting office, as far as I am concerned.

The enemy of my enemy can be planning to fuck me up, too...and in some cases, they seem to be allying with my enemy. And we all know what the ally of my enemy must be.

347 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:11:08pm

re: #343 Jim D

You mean science sans magic? That's not just Charles. That what all scientists adhere to.

gunjam: Factually incorrect.

Sal: Then identify some of this purported 'magic' to which empirical scientists alllegedly adhere. As opposed to your magical mystical myths.

348 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:11:30pm
349 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:14:08pm

re: #344 gunjam

I think you are taking the fight to the wrong people. Talk to your fellow creationist travelers who think making deals with islamists to further the creationist agenda is a good idea- not us.

350 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:15:48pm

gunjam, let me say this with crystalline clarity, so that it is burned forever in your brain:

We WILL NOT be blackmailed into embracing one religious fundamentalism just so we can avoid being conquered by another. This country, my beloved USA, is a secular democratic republic, and it will remain so against all religious and political enemies, both foreign and domestic.

351 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:17:02pm

re: #348 Sharmuta

Here's a great graph of a computer simulation on evolution.

Sorry- hat tip: Ken Miller.

352 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:18:34pm

re: #346 Salamantis

You're only opposed to the science that you view as empirically contradicting your particular creation myth.

And if the price we have to pay for creationists signing up in the military is to have everyone's kids indoctrinated into creationist mythology in public high school science class, you can just stay the fuck outta the recruiting office, as far as I am concerned.

The enemy of my enemy can be planning to fuck me up, too...and in some cases, they seem to be allying with my enemy. And we all know what the ally of my enemy must be.

In some cases, yes. In the majority of cases, no -- including mine. I am no ally of radical Islam. Why do you slime me with such an ad hominem absurdity totally detached from the truth?

I do not agree with the writer of the article posted by Charles: I do NOT care to ally myself with Islamists.

353 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:19:53pm

re: #340 gunjam

I respect your strong stand for your (incorrect, in my view) beliefs.

But... please remind me ... how am I a totalitarian again?

You are a totalitarian if you insist upon teaching religious dogma in public high school science class.

354 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:27:02pm

re: #350 Salamantis

re: #350 Salamantis

We WILL NOT be blackmailed into embracing one religious fundamentalism just so we can avoid being conquered by another. This country, my beloved USA, is a secular democratic republic, and it will remain so against all religious and political enemies, both foreign and domestic.

Historical revisionism, much?

How many evolutionists were there at Jamestown Colony?
How many evolutionists were on the Mayflower?
How many evolutionists signed the Declaration, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights?

Also, please look up the Supreme Court's Trinity Decision of 1892 before you tell me how secular our republic is.

Also, listen to the words of FDR's radio address to the country on the occasion of D-Day. Note, especially, his use of the term "our religion."

You are the newcomer, I would submit -- you and your secularist credo.

If what you are saying is that we may need to have a civil war, ... be careful what you wish for. Even if your side should win, it may be a mere Pyrrhic victory paving the way for either an Islamic or Chinese takeover.

355 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:30:29pm

re: #354 gunjam

How many evolutionists were there at Jamestown Colony?
How many evolutionists were on the Mayflower?
How many evolutionists signed the Declaration, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights?

What a load of crap. Darwin published On the Origin of Species only 150 years ago, and you want to talk about revisionism?

356 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:32:40pm

It certainly is an ominous portrait of the ID movement that's emerging here, lately. It's becoming clear how out of control the madness has gotten. And think of all the urging there has been to let these cockroaches do their work under the shelter of darkness. Look how many have been shocked to find that this isn't a safe haven for them, much less a bastion. They would still be laboring under this illusion if Charles hadn't stuck to his guns. And you know there are plenty of "conservative" blogs that are echo chambers and staging areas for these creeps.

357 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:33:10pm
Sal: Then identify some of this purported 'magic' to which empirical scientists alllegedly adhere. As opposed to your magical mystical myths.

All the creationist outfits, whether ICR or Ken Hamm's group, have genuine scientists on their staffs.

This is nothing new: I have posted links previously to the now deceased A. E. Wilder-Smith.

Of course, I am not defending "magic," as in, say witchcraft, but rather a rigorous belief in Creationism, which is derided in these threads as magic or worse.

358 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:33:51pm

re: #352 gunjam

In some cases, yes. In the majority of cases, no -- including mine. I am no ally of radical Islam. Why do you slime me with such an ad hominem absurdity totally detached from the truth?

I do not agree with the writer of the article posted by Charles: I do NOT care to ally myself with Islamists.

The concerns that this sort of thing engenders are the same as the concerns we would have with antijihadist eurofascists as allies against Islamofascists (besides the entire discrediting-decent-antijihadis-by-association thing). They could not be trusted not to train their gun barrels on us once the battle was won, or even while it was still being fought.

If Genesis myth alliances with Islamocreationists caused domestic Christian creationists to be viewed with the same concerns, the only people who would benefit would be the jihadis.

359 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:35:27pm

re: #355 Sharmuta

re: #354 gunjam

How many evolutionists were there at Jamestown Colony?
How many evolutionists were on the Mayflower?
How many evolutionists signed the Declaration, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights?

What a load of crap. Darwin published On the Origin of Species only 150 years ago, and you want to talk about revisionism?

So, how many evolutionists were on the Mayflower?

So, where do folks like Salamantis get off implying that creationists are enemies domestic?

Was there a revolution I missed? If not, Christians were here first. ;-)

360 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:35:58pm

re: #354 gunjam

re: #350 Salamantis

Historical revisionism, much?

How many evolutionists were there at Jamestown Colony?
How many evolutionists were on the Mayflower?
How many evolutionists signed the Declaration, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights?

Also, please look up the Supreme Court's Trinity Decision of 1892 before you tell me how secular our republic is.

Also, listen to the words of FDR's radio address to the country on the occasion of D-Day. Note, especially, his use of the term "our religion."

You are the newcomer, I would submit -- you and your secularist credo.

If what you are saying is that we may need to have a civil war, ... be careful what you wish for. Even if your side should win, it may be a mere Pyrrhic victory paving the way for either an Islamic or Chinese takeover.

I regret that I insulted scum by comparing it to you.

361 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:36:54pm

re: #357 gunjam

All the creationist outfits, whether ICR or Ken Hamm's group, have genuine scientists on their staffs.

This is nothing new: I have posted links previously to the now deceased A. E. Wilder-Smith.

Of course, I am not defending "magic," as in, say witchcraft, but rather a rigorous belief in Creationism, which is derided in these threads as magic or worse.

Creationism is pseudo-scientific hooey. The so-called "scientists" on the staff of the ICR are charlatans and frauds.

362 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:37:52pm

re: #359 gunjam

If not, Christians were here first.

Uh, no. They weren't. More revisionism?

363 Wendya  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:39:48pm

re: #39 zombie

If they think they're going to win this battle, they've got another thing coming. They halve no clue.

Back in late 2001, I recall responding to someone on a now defunct message board about how it was the time to bring "God back into the classrooms" because Christianity was the only thing that could defeat Islam. My response was: Don't think for one second most of us will tolerate from you what we will not tolerate from Muslims.

364 mad doc  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:40:11pm

re: #351 Sharmuta

They did that similar thing to support global warming. Not convincing at all I'm afraid

365 Wendya  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:41:49pm

re: #354 gunjam

re: #350 Salamantis


Also, please look up the Supreme Court's Trinity Decision of 1892

Been there, done that.

Brewer's statement was his personal opinion and has zero legal bearing.

366 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:41:57pm

re: #358 Salamantis

If Genesis myth alliances with Islamocreationists caused domestic Christian creationists to be viewed with the same concerns, the only people who would benefit would be the jihadis.

I have no desire -- nor do 95% of creationists -- to ally myself with Islamists.

P.S. Genesis is not a myth. What do you do with Christ's references in the Gospels to biblical persons and events recorded in Genesis? Was he a sucker for "magic" and the "Genesis myth," as well?

367 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:42:00pm

I may soon succumb to the temptation to be rude to a creationist.

368 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:42:38pm

re: #354 gunjam

re: #350 Salamantis

Historical revisionism, much?

How many evolutionists were there at Jamestown Colony?
How many evolutionists were on the Mayflower?
How many evolutionists signed the Declaration, the Constitution, or the Bill of Rights?

Umm...Origin of Species wasn't even published until 1859. I would wager that quite a few of our freethinking Founders and Framers would have indeed favored the theory had it been available to them.

369 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:44:52pm

re: #367 jaunte

I may soon succumb to the temptation to be rude to a creationist.

Couldn't hurt. Most of them seem impervious to shame, anyway.

370 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:45:03pm

re: #357 gunjam

All the creationist outfits, whether ICR or Ken Hamm's group, have genuine scientists on their staffs.

This is nothing new: I have posted links previously to the now deceased A. E. Wilder-Smith.

Of course, I am not defending "magic," as in, say witchcraft, but rather a rigorous belief in Creationism, which is derided in these threads as magic or worse.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Arthur Ernest Wilder-Smith (1915 - 1995), more commonly known as A. E. Wilder-Smith, was a Young Earth creationist and a chemist.

Wilder-Smith is author and co-author of over 70 scientific publications and more than 30 books which have been translated into many different languages.[citation needed] Smith studied Natural Sciences at Oxford, England, received a Ph.D. in physical organic chemistry at University of Reading, England in 1941, a Dr.es.Sc. in pharmacological sciences from Eidgenössische Technische Hochschule (Swiss Federal Institute of Technology) in Zürich, and a D.Sc. in pharmacological sciences from University of Geneva in 1964. He was also a Fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry.[1][unreliable source?]

He and creationist physicist Edgar Andrews debated biologists Richard Dawkins and John Maynard Smith in the Oxford Union's Huxley Memorial Debate in 1986. The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science has made the audio of the debate available.

In 1965 he visited and promoted the false claims that dinosaur and human footprints existed at Paluxy River in Dinosaur Valley State Park. He was criticized by scientists over these claims. These supposed tracks were later discovered to have been forged by creationists who tried to claim humans and dinosaurs lived together.

According to the National Center for Science Education, Wilder-Smith's work The Natural Sciences Know Nothing of Evolution contains a variety of falsehoods and errors. Kenneth Christiansen, Professor of Biology at Grinnell College, reviewed the book stating "the most fundamental flaw of the book is an apparent confusion or ignorance (it is hard to tell) concerning our present understanding of the evolutionary process." He further noted that Wilder-Smith's work disregarded basic literature in the field discussed.

371 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:46:00pm

re: #361 Charles

Creationism is pseudo-scientific hooey. The so-called "scientists" on the staff of the ICR are charlatans and frauds.

As you wish, sir.

However, please be candid enough to admit that they are charlatans and frauds with earned Ph.D.s, in many cases.

Also, you have never acknowledged my links to the late A. E. Wilder-Smith, a creationist who held three earned doctorates.

He was very gracious in his argumentatation, as well. We could all learn a lesson from him in that regard -- especially me!

372 Charles  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:48:30pm

re: #371 gunjam

As you wish, sir.

However, please be candid enough to admit that they are charlatans and frauds with earned Ph.D.s, in many cases.

Also, you have never acknowledged my links to the late A. E. Wilder-Smith, a creationist who held three earned doctorates.

He was very gracious in his argumentatation, as well. We could all learn a lesson from him in that regard -- especially me!

The late A. E. Wilder-Smith was a complete, unmitigated kook who rejected the entirety of science in order to believe in a laughable fantasy.

373 gunjam  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:49:04pm

Good night, all!

This devout (sic) Christian creationist needs to retire, or he may not make it to church on time in a few hours!

Cheers!

374 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:49:17pm

re: #366 gunjam

And are you trying to tell me God is a deceiver? That He would make it look as though evolution occurred when it did not? Are you trying to tell me God is a plagiarist? That he plagiarized our genome from that of the great apes? And why? To trick us into thinking something other than the truth? Why do you think God would lie to us like that?!

375 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:50:12pm

re: #359 gunjam

So, how many evolutionists were on the Mayflower?

Umm; the Mayflower was a bit before 1859, too.

So, where do folks like Salamantis get off implying that creationists are enemies domestic?

Was there a revolution I missed? If not, Christians were here first. ;-)

Pagans were here before everyone. That includes Europe, but also the US (native Americans were pagans). The who's on first argument falls flatter than a fritter. And creationists indeed harm the US both domestically and internationally, in both the trade and foreign policy arenas, if they cause us to lose our technology edge in the sciences by forcing dark age teachings on our public high school science class students.

376 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:50:22pm

A man with a Ph.D. who uses his knowledge of a field of science to misrepresent the discoveries of that field is a charlatan, a fraud and a liar, and will be remembered as such. If he thinks his lies are excused by a higher purpose, more fool he.

377 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:51:08pm

re: #364 mad doc

What would convince you of evolution? I'm guessing nothing.

378 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:51:56pm

re: #364 mad doc

They did that similar thing to support global warming. Not convincing at all I'm afraid

That ain't no hockey stick.

379 Salem  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:53:52pm

I want to revert to a hunter-gatherer who worships his prey. Those guys had it all figured out!

380 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:55:09pm

re: #366 gunjam

I have no desire -- nor do 95% of creationists -- to ally myself with Islamists.

P.S. Genesis is not a myth. What do you do with Christ's references in the Gospels to biblical persons and events recorded in Genesis? Was he a sucker for "magic" and the "Genesis myth," as well?

Sooo...do you prefer to think that some ancient indigenous Middle Eastern tribesmen got some stuff wrong, or that a deity planted lying bones in lying rock, permeated our universe with a lying big bang echo, and topped it all off by placing lying genetic sequences in every cell of every living thing on the planet?

381 Salamantis  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:58:30pm

re: #371 gunjam

As you wish, sir.

However, please be candid enough to admit that they are charlatans and frauds with earned Ph.D.s, in many cases.

Also, you have never acknowledged my links to the late A. E. Wilder-Smith, a creationist who held three earned doctorates.

He was very gracious in his argumentatation, as well. We could all learn a lesson from him in that regard -- especially me!

All scientists are not equal, irrespective of field of expertise. The great majority of the Disco Institute and Institite for Creation Research scientists hold their degrees in fields completely unrelated to the life sciences, and completely unimpacted by evolutionary theory.

382 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 10:58:45pm

re: #364 mad doc

Did you even read my links in #342?

383 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 11:00:01pm

re: #381 Salamantis

Not to mention that some of their 'stars' have stopped actually practicing science and have begun to simply write books, give lectures, and elaborate and hedge their pet theories.

384 Sharmuta  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 11:03:14pm

Do creationists hate Harry Potter too?

385 jaunte  Sat, Aug 9, 2008 11:06:54pm

Goodnight all.

386 Kulhwch  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 12:47:54am

re: #350 Salamantis

gunjam, let me say this with crystalline clarity, so that it is burned forever in your brain:

We WILL NOT be blackmailed into embracing one religious fundamentalism just so we can avoid being conquered by another. This country, my beloved USA, is a secular democratic republic, and it will remain so against all religious and political enemies, both foreign and domestic.

Gods damn right!

}:)     [Time to start laying in extra ammo?]

387 freetoken  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 12:55:42am

re: #359 gunjam

So, how many evolutionists were on the Mayflower?

How many Electrical Engineers were there on the Mayflower?

Oh, none....

Therefore, Electrical Engineering is against the foundations of the United States.


/no?

388 Westward Ho  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 1:44:52am

re: #175 Killgore Trout

I wonder what the figures are for Israel, I think that a significant majority of the orthodox community rejects evolution.

389 natemannq  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 3:42:51am

She appeared to be talking more about advocating the exploitation of a double standard that exists toward teaching islamic law and less about "aligning" with islamists.

But that's just me.

390 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 6:44:10am

(edited to make a point)

Once Moslems Salafiist/Qutbist/Wahhabist Jihadists see that modernity need not mean the death of God, then they may begin to view Christianity and Judaism more benignly.

This guy hasn't a fricking clue. I can almost hear him screaming "but why ME?" as he's burned at a metaphorical Islamist stake.

391 nikis-knight  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 8:04:10am
Once Moslems see that modernity need not mean the death of God, then they may begin to view Christianity and Judaism more benignly.

Yeah. That'll work.

392 Throbert McGee  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 8:08:34am

re: #4 zombie

Speaking of "Intellgent Design:"

I'm taking votes on whether I should go to this event tonight:

Anal Foreclosure

This is what San Francisco is like: A combination of post-post-postmodern intellectualized insanity and brutish body-orifice worship.

Zombie -- if you ended up going, I look forward to your report! (Although having looked at the Anal Foreclosure website, I'm not expecting any revelations.)

But may I point you to an essay that might offer some insight into why self-described Queer™ artists such as Ryan Tacata produce this kind of nonsense? It was written by the same guy who (as far as I know) first coined the slang term "frot" in the specific sense of "non-penetrative penis-on-penis rubbing as a male homosexual practice," by shortening the more generic term for sexual rubbing, "frottage."

Anyway, the non-safe-for-work essay is entitled The Anus Is NOT a Vagina.

And if you think that's pretty bloody obvious, the main theme of the essay is that modern gay male culture expends VAST amounts of time and energy selling guys on the contrary idea: that the anus and rectum are basically a "man-gina"; that the prostate gland is "the male G-spot"; that untold pleasures await those who can overcome their instinctive aversion to being anally penetrated by a foreign object; and that millions of poor benighted straight dudes are actually in denial about the fact that Mother Nature intended for human males to take it up the wazoo.

And from mental contortions required to believe this, you get "Anal Foreclosure."

393 Salamantis  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 8:43:04am

Just for general information: Many people know that male-on-male genital rubbing is called frottage; far fewer know that female-on-female genital rubbing is called tribadism.

394 Throbert McGee  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 9:22:53am

re: #393 Salamantis

far fewer know that female-on-female genital rubbing is called tribadism.

A related word is "triboluminescence" -- a fancy term for the faint bluish glow that is visible if you crunch Wint-O-Green Lifesavers between your teeth in the dark!

The Greek root common to both is tribein, "to rub."

395 MPH  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 9:51:25am

Keep hammering these people, Charles....

396 ebed_melech  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 2:25:25pm

Frankly, as a creationist, who's spent time and effort exposing some of the flaws in evolution, for example by organising lectures examining the myth of biogenesis, I have found Muslims very poor allies: they don't see the issues clearly, they usually don't feel troubled by evolution, it doesn't directly challenge the relatively allegorical Qur'an creation texts as far as most are concerned.
I accept Harun Yahya and others are troubled by evolution, but in my experience, they're very much in the minority.
I have spoken to many Muslims, across the spectrum, usually in evangelising them, rarely have I found Creation to be a major issue with them. Interestingly like most evolutionary materialists they usually accept death as a natural process, not as a divinely imposed punishment, as part of the curse.
There's been better scope for cooperation with Christians and Conservative/Orthodox Jews in areas of moral legislation where we agree.

397 Charles  Sun, Aug 10, 2008 2:27:13pm

re: #396 ebed_melech

Frankly, as a creationist, who's spent time and effort exposing some of the flaws in evolution, for example by organising lectures examining the myth of biogenesis, I have found Muslims very poor allies: they don't see the issues clearly, they usually don't feel troubled by evolution, it doesn't directly challenge the relatively allegorical Qur'an creation texts as far as most are concerned.

You have never exposed a single "flaw" in evolution. The creationist rubbish you've spouted at LGF is ludicrous.


This entry has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

log in
Name:
Pass:

Register Forgot Your Password? My Account Re-send Confirmation (To log in, cookies must be enabled in your browser!)

► LGF Headlines

► Top 10 Comments

► Bottom Comments

► Recent Comments

► Tools/Info

► LGF Hits

► Slideshows

► Resources

► Never Forget

► Statistics

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form

► News/Opinion

Holiday Gift Guide - Save up to 45% on the seasons best!
Holiday Gift Finder - Save up to 46% on the perfect gift!
More Partners

Compare Electricity Prices in your area. Texas Electricity is deregulated; you have the right to choose Texas Electric Rates from among many Texas Electric Companies.

A sane moral compass.


Free Shipping  and up to 30% savings on new Textbooks