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Applebaum on Georgia

Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:24:31 am PDT

Anne Applebaum has an interesting column on the situation in Georgia: A Threat Explodes In Georgia.

Both sides have deeper motives for fighting. The Russians want to prevent Georgia from joining NATO, as Georgia, a Western-oriented democracy — George Bush has called the country a “ beacon of liberty” — has long wanted to do. In this, they will almost certainly succeed: No Western power has any interest in a military ally that is involved in a major military conflict with Russia.

The Georgian leadership, by contrast, had come to believe that the constant pressure of Russian aggression, coupled with the West’s failure to accept Georgia into NATO, compelled them to demonstrate “self-reliance.” President Mikheil Saakashvili has indeed been buying weapons in preparation for this moment. Those who know him say he believed a military conflict was inevitable but could be won if conducted cleverly. As of last night, with Russian soldiers fighting in South Ossetia — only a few dozen miles from Tbilisi, the Georgian capital — it seemed as though he might have miscalculated, badly. Russia has not sent 150 tanks across that border in order to lose.

Still, the bottom line is this: Georgia should have stepped back from the brink — and should still do so if it has a chance — but Russia’s deployment of such a large and carefully prepared force, not only in South Ossetia but in the rest of Georgia as well, is totally unacceptable. The other indisputable conclusion? Wherever the blame for this week’s escalation is finally laid, the West has very little influence on the outcome. Saakashvili’s appeals for help and moral support — “ This is not about Georgia,” he told CNN, “this is about the basic values the U.S. has always preached” — aren’t going to amount to much unless Russia wants them to.

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143 comments

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1 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:27:47am

Nothing says "you lose" like a column of tanks in your capital City.

2 Grok the Fullness  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:27:53am

Russia is a foolish nation

3 lefty201  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:28:11am

another nail in the coffin of relations between Russia and The United States. Sadly, it seem like this country depended on our help, and now they are going to fall because we need Russia's help with Iran more than we need Georgia.

4 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:30:19am

Condi is our 'Russia Expert'.

She'll handle this lickety split, I'm sure.

Plus, she plays the piano and has knee high black boots.

5 Grok the Fullness  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:30:41am

It wouldn't take much to stomp the Russian columns if the pictures I see are to be believed.

6 Sizzlack  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:31:33am

I'm a little surprised Russia had 150 tanks in working order. They've clearly been preparing for this for some time.

7 Cap'n DOC  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:31:52am

re: #5 Grok the Fullness

Throw a couple of cases of Vodka in the tanks.

8 WriterMom  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:32:19am

re: #4 Maine's Michael

I haven't seen a single piece of commentary from Princess Condi of the Amaleks.

9 guy_philly  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:32:22am

re: #5 Grok the Fullness

It wouldn't take much to stomp the Russian columns if the pictures I see are to be believed.

Time for the A-10 Thunderbolts

10 Opinionated  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:32:46am

Any small Western oriented country that counts on help from the West when facing either Russia, China and/or oil interests, is a presumptive fool.

Listening Israel?

11 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:32:47am

re: #1 Peacekeeper

Nothing says "you lose" like a column of tanks in your capital City.

Just ask the French.

12 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:32:48am

Another good read from Instapundit....
Russian aggression meets "anticipatory capitulation"

Why won't the West help Georgia -- say, by immediately admitting the nation to NATO?


How to explain the West's impotent tsk-tsking in the face of this latest Russian aggression?

The answer lies in what I call the "anticipatory capitulation" factor.

The greatest terror of postmodern Westerners is "confrontation": to be compelled into situations in which they must actually face down a bully. And, of course, taking a moral stand may sometimes lead to such "confrontations."

So, in anticipation of any course of action that could possibly lead to a "confrontation," postmoderns never take a moral stand. They look into the future, at where such a stand might lead them -- and, terrified by the prospect, they back down pre-emptively. Often, they seek some sort of "compromise" with thugs that takes the "confrontation" option off the table. "Compromise" here means: anticipatory capitulation.

13 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:32:50am

My heart goes out to the poor civillians on both sides of the lines who are paying the price for all of this .

14 Sizzlack  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:32:50am

Perhaps there is a magical vodka factory in Tbilisi that none of us knew about.

15 itellu3times  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:33:22am

re: #6 Sizzlack

I'm a little surprised Russia had 150 tanks in working order. They've clearly been preparing for this for some time.

Who are you, the CIA or something?

16 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:33:40am

re: #8 WriterMom

It's been a tough couple of days in your neck of the woods, eh? I hope you are safe.

17 Opinionated  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:33:48am

re: #8 WriterMom

I haven't seen a single piece of commentary from Princess Condi of the Amaleks.

She's busy filling out Fulbright scholarship applications for Gazan terrorists.

18 itellu3times  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:34:50am

re: #17 Opinionated

She's busy filling out Fulbright scholarship applications for Gazan terrorists.

Lordy, ain't that right. Talk about taking your eye off the ball. Forget the NFL, honey.

19 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:34:57am

re: #3 lefty201

another nail in the coffin of relations between Russia and The United States. Sadly, it seem like this country depended on our help, and now they are going to fall because we need Russia's help with Iran more than we need Georgia.

I doubt that the USA intervens militarily, but that's not because we expect Russia to help in Iran. Russia will not help with Iran. The USA can't take millitary action because we are stretched as it is. There are a number of things we could do economically and diplomatically, however.

Let's hope that there is a nice face-saving solution before the situation gets too out-of-control.

20 WriterMom  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:35:26am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

Yes Killgore-it's been insane actually...the explosion in Toronto and then riots in Montreal. Unfortunately, a fireman died fighting the fire here.

21 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:35:30am

re: #8 WriterMom

That's cause she's burning up the phone lines to Russia as we speak, no doubt.

She keeps getting a busy signal - or a message that Putin is out and will get back to her next week sometime.

22 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:35:34am

Georgian President says it all about the invasion...
[Link: www.breitbart.tv...]

23 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:35:51am

Doesn't it seem odd that Russia had so many tanks in the vicinity without our knowing? Or, if we did know did we tell Georgia? It doesn't seem likely that they would have made the moves they did had they known Russia was that prepared.

24 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:36:08am

re: #10 Opinionated

Any small Western oriented country that counts on help from the West when facing either Russia, China and/or oil interests, is a presumptive fool.

Listening Israel?

My thoughts exactly. And if Israel is even remotely thinking of paying a visit to Iran, NOW would be a good time to do it!

25 WriterMom  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:36:27am

re: #17 Opinionated

And President Bush went from beach volleyball (and some very fine, fine tushies I have to say) to China. HELLOOOOOOOO.

26 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:36:33am

Here we had this three way dance of intrigue and brinksmanship, sophisticated psycho drama, and the Russians had to go and spoil it all by just sticking a bunch of tanks in there.

27 paradox42  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:36:34am

re: #8 WriterMom

Why affirmative action sucks: Condi Rice.

28 lefty201  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:36:35am

re: #19 DeafDog

I hope your right. For the sake of all of the civilians that are trapped in this I hope your right. May God have mercy on them.

29 itellu3times  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:36:36am

re: #19 DeafDog

Let's hope that there is a nice face-saving solution before the situation gets too out-of-control.

There's not. It's already out of control, and if we had a month to think about it, it wouldn't help.

I just can't believe how ugly this is.

30 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:36:45am
Still, the bottom line is this: Georgia should have stepped back from the brink — and should still do so if it has a chance

Hasn't Sakaashavili done so?

President Saakashvili said on August 11 he had signed a ceasefire deal proposed by senior European envoys.

French and Finnish Foreign Ministers Bernard Kouchner and Alexander Stubb, respectively, met Saakashvili overnight and again early on August 11, before traveling to Moscow.

SNIP

I read/posted the link to the article yesterday about this here.

31 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:37:05am

re: #27 paradox42

Booooo!

32 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:37:10am

Riots in Montreal?

What happened? Did they pas a law banning the sale of beer in grocery stores?

33 CommonCents  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:37:30am

I just hope we don't lose Pavel Datsyuk over this. That would make me sad.

--Red Wings Fanatic (me)

34 Opinionated  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:38:16am

Meanwhile George Bush has an appointment with an eye doctor. He wants to know why his peek into Putin's soul was so distorted.

But he continues to insist his peek into Abbas's soul- man of peace and all- is correct.

35 WriterMom  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:38:19am

re: #21 Maine's Michael

She'll get the voicemail "Hi, you've reached Vlad-I can't take the phone right now, I'm really busy invading the shit out of those rotten Georgians...if you want-leave a message at the tone and I'll get back to you once I've spinned some awesome PropandandChik. If it's Condi or W, stick some borscht up yer butts, baby. BEEEEEEEP".

36 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:38:31am

re: #23 Ford_Prefect

Doesn't it seem odd that Russia had so many tanks in the vicinity without our knowing? Or, if we did know did we tell Georgia? It doesn't seem likely that they would have made the moves they did had they known Russia was that prepared.

There are many behind-the-scenes unknowns. I'd also like to know: (1) Did Georgia consult with the US before they decided to launch the initial attack? (2) If they did, did we tell them, "no" and then they went ahead anyway?

37 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:38:40am

re: #32 Maine's Michael

Riots in Montreal?

There are reports it degraded into a full blown hockey game.

38 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:38:46am

re: #34 Opinionated

Meanwhile George Bush has an appointment with an eye doctor. He wants to know why his peek into Putin's soul was so distorted.

But he continues to insist his peek into Abbas's soul- man of peace and all- is correct.

You are especially hot today.

39 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:38:52am

Looks like the good old days of the Cold War are back.

Russia, despite claims to the contrary, has a formidable fighting force. Its planes and tanks are modern and are on a par with our own. Forget the Russian Navy - traditionally Russia has never been one to consider seriously the advantages of a blue-water navy. But, its land forces have not been allowed to wither.

Also, this action is a bit like Hitler returning to the Rhineland in 1936. "Oh," says the West, "he's just taking back what was his." The Russians are doing the same before another part of what had been part of the the USSR--not merely a Warsaw Pact satellite--moves into the NATO fold. They are also, and more sinisterly, testing the resolve and physical capabilities of the US, which is now spread thin throughout the world. This is going to be an interesting week.

40 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:39:03am

re: #33 CommonCents

I just hope we don't lose Pavel Datsyuk over this. That would make me sad.

--Red Wings Fanatic (me)

Why is he also a tank driver?

41 itellu3times  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:39:06am

So there really were 150 tanks, not just miscellenous green tracked vehicles, because they planned to try for the whole country, and weren't clear on what the opposition would be.

I suppose Georgia could have been better prepared, blown the passes, whatever. Guess they weren't, or couldn't, and maybe it would not have mattered, or even made things worse. The Soviets, er, whatever, would just have carpet-bombed Tbilisi.

42 CommonCents  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:39:06am

re: #25 WriterMom

And President Bush went from beach volleyball (and some very fine, fine tushies I have to say) to China. HELLOOOOOOOO.

I'll second that fine comment!

43 paradox42  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:39:20am

re: #31 Killgore Trout

Maybe I went too far on that one.
I think I'll just not say anything about her, since I have nothing nice to say.

44 Sizzlack  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:39:26am

Boo. They said Russia had taken Gori. I thought for a second they said Gore.

45 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:39:55am

Theoretically the US could:
Start an air campaign and destroy every single Russian jet/tank/apc/russian vehicle in Georgia...
Sink every Russian warship/sub everywhere in the world...
Park an aircraft carrier group in the region and both bomb the snot out of the Russians in Georgia and anything the Russians put to sea...

Will we?
Doubt it...

Should we?
Yes. Germany got a pass in it's first few invasions so Hitler felt he had a free hand to eventually go into Poland... Not acting here will give Putin the feeling of a free hand to invade the former soviet republics one at a time... or do worse...

46 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:39:59am

re: #23 Ford_Prefect

Back in the '80s NATO gave some credit to the theory that the Russians could launch a BOOB assault on Europe. Bolt Out Of Blue.
Gaining strategic surprise by suddenly ordering your garrison forces to stike. Not saying this is what happened. I just like writing BOOB.

47 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:40:08am

Applebaum raises two very good points in that last paragraph.

48 steveoh  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:40:10am

No mention of the crucial oil line to the west? "Premier" Vladimir Putin is playing his cards just as the old block soviets did. Timing, and predictable outcome.

I can't believe we bailed those sob's out when they were down. We should have let them rot. All of the financial and logistical support we gave to Russia.

I'm disgusted.

49 WriterMom  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:40:10am

re: #34 Opinionated

Because the State Department ordered the lenses.

50 JammieWearingFool  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:40:17am

re: #25 WriterMom

And President Bush went from beach volleyball (and some very fine, fine tushies I have to say) to China. HELLOOOOOOOO.

The beach volleyball was in China.

51 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:40:38am

re: #35 WriterMom

I actually made Borsht from our homegrown beets this weekend.

With sourcream, fresh diced cukes, and fresh dill. Yum.

We will be having the leftover tonite.

I'll be thinking of Condi.

Has she veer had any borsht?

52 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:40:48am

re: #25 WriterMom

Let's be careful here. The Bush that comes back from China might not be the Bush we sent to China. Ooohhh, scary!

53 WriterMom  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:41:21am

re: #50 JammieWearingFool

LOL. Whoops-yes DUH, my bad. You know what I meant.

54 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:41:27am

Applebaum on the delovely and delightful Putin and the murder of journalist Anna Politkovskaya almost two years ago. (She also mentions the murders of other journalists.)

She wasn't charismatic, she didn't fill lecture halls and she wasn't much good at talk shows either. Nevertheless, at the time of her murder in Moscow Saturday, Anna Politkovskaya was at the pinnacle of her influence. One of the best-known journalists in Russia and one of the best-known Russian journalists in the world, she was proof -- and more is always needed -- that there is still nothing quite so powerful as the written word.

The subject of Politkovskaya's writing was Russia itself, and in particular what she called Russia's " dirty war " in Chechnya. Long after the rest of the international press corps had abandoned Chechnya -- it was too dangerous for most of us, too complicated, too obscure -- she kept telling heartbreaking Chechen stories: The Russian army colonel who pulled 89 elderly people from the ruins of Grozny but received no medals, or the Chechen schoolboy who was ill from the aftereffects of torture but could get no compensation. A hallmark of her books and articles was the laborious descriptions of how she tried, and invariably failed, to get explanations from hostile and evasive Russian authorities. At the same time, she had no patience for the fanatical fringe of the Chechen independence movement either.

SNIP

55 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:41:51am

re: #36 DeafDog

There are many behind-the-scenes unknowns. I'd also like to know: (1) Did Georgia consult with the US before they decided to launch the initial attack? (2) If they did, did we tell them, "no" and then they went ahead anyway?

Exactly. There is definitely more than meets the eye here. I will say that if they did consult us there is no way we told them yes.

56 zombie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:41:53am

OK, this is totally crazy.

You know how there have been ongoing arguments here about Serbia, and Serbian morals?

And you know how I had a disturbing report about a public sex fair in San Francisco?

Well, those two topics couldn't possibly be less connected to each other -- right?

Right?

Wrong.

Because I just discovered this completely mind-boggling page. It seems to be (and I'd be willing to be corrected - it's hard to decipher) a hyper-militant Serbian nationalist who at the same time (?!?!?!?!?) is in favor of public gay sex, and accuses me of being a "nazi-fascist anti-gay." Then he goes on to copy my ENTIRE "Up Your Alley" report without permission, and posts this screed as an introduction:

INTERNET NOVINE SERBSKE

Death to nazi-fascist anti-gays! Die of jealosy because we achieved goal of open luvvvvv towards our fellow man!

Long live San Francisco, ciity of gay pride and parade!

Only and only when whole World reaches this ultimate fruits of freedom and democracy like we achieved in our beloved San Francisco, we will reach our goal of "Love your man like yourself".

Here are pinacles of freedom one can see only in the societies with perfectly established democracy, societies where nazi-fascists-antigays and Hakenkreutz scrabblers are instantly confined to GULAGs.

All those happy, free gays would be forced to carry pink armbands on the sleeves in cruel nazi regimes!

He really takes Godwin's Law to new heights!

What I simply can't understand is the addition of photoshops of Bill Clinton and Al Gore in leather fetish gear -- as if that was some kind of put down of them. But if the maker of the page likes Up Your Alley, then in what way is that an insult toward Clinton and Gore (the bombers of Belgrade).

Could it be that the entire page is an anti-Serbian hoax page? Additional evidence for this is a picture of naked gay guys in San Francisco with the caption, "SRBI U SAN FRANCSKU" which I can presume means "Serbs in San Francisco."

WTF??????

57 CommonCents  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:41:55am

re: #40 Nevergiveup

Why is he also a tank driver?

Actually I think he already did his bit in the Red Army, or it was waived.

58 itellu3times  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:41:56am

re: #45 anotherindyfilmguy

Says who we could? What will you bet?

And even if we could, at what cost?

And that doesn't even count nukes on either side.

59 WriterMom  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:42:34am

re: #51 Maine's Michael

Beet? I'm a cabbage borscht gal...

60 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:42:47am

re: #46 Peacekeeper

Back in the '80s NATO gave some credit to the theory that the Russians could launch a BOOB assault on Europe. Bolt Out Of Blue.
Gaining strategic surprise by suddenly ordering your garrison forces to stike. Not saying this is what happened. I just like writing BOOB.

Are you trying to start a Boob thread?

61 Opinionated  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:43:10am

re: #38 Maine's Michael

Foolish, incompetent and delusional Western leaders are my Muses.

62 Mel Lono  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:43:59am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Also read the president of Georgia's letter to the WSJ linked above. One side of the story, at least, but a good recap.

This conflict is therefore about our common trans-Atlantic values of liberty and democracy. It is about the right of small nations to live freely and determine their own future. It is about the great power struggles for influence of the 20th century, versus the path of integration and unity defined by the European Union of the 21st. Georgia has made its choice.

63 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:44:33am

re: #60 Ford_Prefect

Are you trying to start a Boob thread?

Anyone who tries that here must be in his cups.

64 Wendya  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:44:58am
Still, the bottom line is this: Georgia should have stepped back from the brink — and should still do so if it has a chance

Yeah, just sit back and let Russian continue to manipulate the situation through South Ossetia.

It's just so easy to sit back here in America or Europe and tell another country to just take whatever Putin hands out because fighting back might screw up your personal interests.

65 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:45:10am

Everybody knows what a Nazi prude you are.

66 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:45:13am

re: #56 zombie

How very strange.

67 Alouette  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:45:53am

re: #27 paradox42

Why affirmative action sucks: Condi Rice.

There was nothing wrong with Condi until the Saudis removed her brain and replaced it with Folger's crystals, thinking nobody would notice.

68 Opinionated  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:45:56am

re: #32 Maine's Michael

Riots in Montreal?

What happened? Did they pas a law banning the sale of beer in grocery stores?

Haitians. The other "Youths"

69 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:45:58am

re: #63 calcajun

Anyone who tries that here must be in his cups.

Let he who is without sin cast the first boulder over his shoulder.

70 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:46:07am

re: #58 itellu3times

If I had to bet on anything I'd bet on the world, US included, abandoning Georgia in the face of Russian aggression... On the other hand I'd rather see this aggression nipped in the bud and the Russian leadership disgraced...
Highly unlikely though since history stutters and starts to repeat itself and the choice is almost always "softness and peace now at any price that leads to a much more horrific times than firmness in the face of evil"...

71 Sizzlack  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:46:08am

re: #56 zombie

One of the major pitfalls of the internet. It gives the craziest of the crazies a very large soapbox.

72 Mel Lono  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:46:08am

re: #24 Nevergiveup

As mentioned last night, we also have two carriers groups in the Gulf, right now.

73 SFGoth  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:46:09am

FWIW, my x-gf in Sofia, BG e-mailed this:

ENGLISH
Dear friends and fellow-students,
as you know, last year I spent five months in Germany. There I befriended many other fellow students from many different countries. Some of them are from Georgia. As you know, right now there is an armed conflict in Georgia. A war. We are flooded by incomplete and biased information about this conflict. Do not ever forget the only irrefutable message - people are dying there.

Today my friend Nino from Tbilisi, Georgia sent me the following email, asking me to forward it to you. Remembert, this is not just another anonymous chain letter.

[links snipped]

find there down, right hand ,,Should the international community intervene in the fighting in Georgia?,, and click: ,,Yes,, !

and then forward both web-pages! / weiterleiten dann bitte beide Seiten!

we need your help! / Wir brauchen ihre Hilfe!

74 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:46:10am

re: #45 anotherindyfilmguy

So you are advocating a full-fledged war?

I am angry that a friend has been manhandled, but there's too many unknowns still for me to be at that point. I'm also not seeing the national interest that would compel congressional support.

75 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:47:24am

"Putin: U.S. hindering truce efforts in South Ossetia"

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Putin joins Democratic party and blames President Bush for all the worlds Problems. Gets choice speaking slot in Denver. Pelosi and Reed nominate Putin for Peace Prize?

76 JammieWearingFool  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:47:34am

re: #53 WriterMom

LOL. Whoops-yes DUH, my bad. You know what I meant.

Just wanted to clarify that. Sadly, those days of checking out bikinis are well behind him.

77 Opinionated  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:47:49am

re: #24 Nevergiveup

My thoughts exactly. And if Israel is even remotely thinking of paying a visit to Iran, NOW would be a good time to do it!

Anyone who paid attention to what Ehud Barak said yesterday knows that Israel is catatonic and may not be long for this world.

78 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:48:01am

re: #69 Ford_Prefect

Let he who is without sin cast the first boulder over his shoulder.

Get serious. This is no lactating matter.

79 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:48:10am

re: #56 zombie

Wha'?

80 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:48:54am

re: #77 Opinionated

Anyone who paid attention to what Ehud Barak said yesterday knows that Israel is catatonic and may not be long for this world.

Maybe that was the old "rope a dope"?

81 zombie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:49:12am

OK, the plot thickens, and connects to the Russian-Georgia situation.

In this post on the same blog, the author writes a pro-Russian white supremacist anti-Georgian racist rant:


Ossetians are White race and were always pro-Russians. Russians and Ossets mingled and intermerried without problem same as Russians and Ukrainians, Balts, even Poles. They are of same religion as Gruzini - "Georgians", christian orthodox but Gruzini are far from White race, wavy greasy black hair, short, with long trunks and extremelly short legs, brown, olive skin, huge, egg-plant type noses and Ossets or Ossetins are Whites.

I repeat:

WTF??????

82 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:49:19am

re: #78 calcajun

Get serious. This is no lactating matter.

You know this topic really is important and we should try to keep abreast.

83 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:11am

The Russians have announced their end game (next thread).

84 de La Valette  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:15am

This is an economic war for the Russians.

Putin (and friends) benefit from increased energy prices and speculation (you know they put their bets down months ago), they need to be hurt economically.

Collapse on and defend the pipeline. Put Western troops on the pipeline (USA, Poles, etc.); don't go near the Russians unless they initiate the contact - then respond in kind, and only in kind.

Hit their pipelines in the region, start going after Kremlin bank accounts.

85 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:20am

re: #12 Killgore Trout

Another good read from Instapundit....
Russian aggression meets "anticipatory capitulation"

Why won't the West help Georgia -- say, by immediately admitting the nation to NATO?

IF it hurts, try something else.

/Foreign Policy of Pooh

86 paradox42  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:20am

re: #56 zombie

Wow. Just when you think you've seen the depths of insanity, something like this comes along to make the hole even deeper.

87 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:21am

Wait till we get an affirmative action President!

88 zombie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:29am

OK, excuse me for double-posting folks, but as soon as I posted those comments, this became a dead thread, so I'll quickly repost. SORRY!

89 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:37am

re: #56 zombie


I would have appreciated a stronger warning before clicking on that "mind blowing link" (pictures blew more than the mind - very gross).

90 Sizzlack  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:44am

re: #81 zombie

Part of that kind of sounds like a food order from a Greek restaurant.

91 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:51:34am

re: #73 SFGoth

The question is how and where do we intervene? We can't interdict Russian vehicles in Russian territory--that's an act of war. We can't fly into Georgian airspace without a formal alliance. Diplomatic pressure is worthless --the Russian will present the world with a fait accompli before hand.

What's to be done without widening the conflict?

92 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:51:39am

re: #81 zombie

Why bother reading that shit. Why bother posting it? You'll make yourself crazy.

93 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:51:46am

re: #74 DeafDog

If we're not willing to fight to support an ally, however unpleasant the consequences then later on we will be seen as unwilling to fight to defend ourselves. There's two parties that would be harmed by a full scale war and Russia might/might not back down from it.

We didn't want to fight in WW2 as were bullied and shoved around by the Japanese in the far east and Pacific who got the impression to think we wouldn't fight after a good bloody nose at Pearl Harbor... If we let Russia go on this they will eventually see the US as unwilling to fight for larger stakes...

94 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:51:56am

re: #45 anotherindyfilmguy

Theoretically the US could:
Start an air campaign and destroy every single Russian jet/tank/apc/russian vehicle in Georgia...
Sink every Russian warship/sub everywhere in the world...
Park an aircraft carrier group in the region and both bomb the snot out of the Russians in Georgia and anything the Russians put to sea...

Will we?
Doubt it...

Should we?
Yes. Germany got a pass in it's first few invasions so Hitler felt he had a free hand to eventually go into Poland... Not acting here will give Putin the feeling of a free hand to invade the former soviet republics one at a time... or do worse...

Never mind those nukes, surely they wouldn't use them in response to an overwhelming ass-kicking.

Making assumptions about the preparedness of their half of the MAD principle is not smart.

95 yochanan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:52:17am

This is the last nail in the post cold war period it is now dead and gone to be replaced by a neo fascist russian nationalism.

ukraine has to watch there back for sure. remember eastern ukraine is russian populated and thus an excuse for russian imperalism.

96 Opinionated  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:53:38am

re: #95 yochanan

to be replaced by a neo fascist russian nationalism.

Why is Pat Buchanan supporting Russia for 1000, Alex.

97 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:55:20am

re: #82 Ford_Prefect

You know this topic really is important and we should try to keep abreast.

Let's stop now. We're going bust with these puns.

98 SFGoth  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:55:24am

re: #91 calcajun

The question is how and where do we intervene? We can't interdict Russian vehicles in Russian territory--that's an act of war. We can't fly into Georgian airspace without a formal alliance. Diplomatic pressure is worthless --the Russian will present the world with a fait accompli before hand.

What's to be done without widening the conflict?

I agree. IMO, "international community" is code for U.S.A., which is why when the chips are down, and you want Uncle Sam to come running, most people probably hope that Sam's sibling is his brother not sister.

99 flyingcloud  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:55:30am

I one time heard that George Soros pay the salary for entire Georgian cabinet. It was also known Soros has been betting against US dollar and for commodities. Perhaps he does not like the way oil price is going.

Normally I would support democratic nations when they are being attacked. However, I do not think the Georgian government has the best interest of their people in mind. They should have maintained neutrality given the sensitive nature of the area.

Asia Time's Spengler has mentioned about the danger of US policy regarding Georgia before. He is perhaps the most perceptive columnist on world affair today. He mentioned in one of his articles, World war III will be like World war I, where dog owners (major powers like US/Russia/China etc) do not want war, it is the pesky puppies of war that will spark the world war in an accident. Georgia might be just one of these puppies. Now the dog owners have to save their face and get involved.

It was not a good idea to admit former soviet republics into NATO, as in case of World war I, the alliance dragged everyone to the fight whether they want to or not.

100 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:56:14am

re: #94 CyanSnowHawk

Never mind those nukes, surely they wouldn't use them in response to an overwhelming ass-kicking.

Making assumptions about the preparedness of their half of the MAD principle is not smart.

Of course not. It would be suicide to do so and the Russian in charge is power hungry, not driven by suicidal religious directives (afik).

101 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:56:35am

re: #96 Opinionated

Why is Pat Buchanan supporting Russia for 1000, Alex.

Because the it's the penis mightier, Trebek.

102 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:57:40am
103 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:58:00am

re: #97 calcajun

Let's stop now. We're going bust with these puns.

You're right. We should nip this in the bud.

104 Serge GoFan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:58:18am

I'm wondering about US reaction, when Russian tanks will cross Ukranien border, taking in consideration that it is no fantasy anymore.

Ukraine may never feel safe any more – expert

After the Russian military aggression against Georgia, Ukraine will never feel itself safe any more.

Mykhaylo Samus, deputy chief of Defense Express Center for Army, Conversion and Disarmament, said this in an exclusive comments to UNIAN.

“Ukraine must give up all illusions about the efficiency of the current security system. We have always believed there is no direct military threat to Ukraine. As if our state is surrounded by friendly and peaceful neighbors allegedly having no aggressive interests concerning Ukraine”, M.Samus said.

In the opinion of the expert, “if Russia made a military aggression step against Georgia, Ukraine may not believe any more that it is safe: nobody can guarantee that Russia would not like to solve its questions in such a way, for instance, in Crimea”.

M.Samus stressed that Ukraine must as early as today realize that its neutral status was actually wiped out with developments around the Georgian-Ossetian, Georgian-Abkhazian conflicts. “We must clearly decide: whether we’re with Russia or with NATO. Any neutrality will mean a state of permanent danger for Ukraine. And its future will depend on desires, interests, and needs of Russia”, he said.

permanent URL of article:
[Link: www.unian.net...]

105 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:58:22am

Puppies. Heh.

106 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:58:42am

re: #93 anotherindyfilmguy

I appreciate the historical analogy and the sentiment and I'm totally willing to support Georgia based on the support they have given to us in Iraq. Support does not mean that we should be willing to go to war with Russia.

There are limits to legal support without congressianal authoirty. There is no way in h*ll a president should go to war with Russia absent congressional authority. And there is no way in h*ll congress would approve action based on the facts as they are currently known.

107 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:58:49am

re: #56 zombie i'll share my morphine drip, crazy isn't it.

108 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:59:35am

re: #102 DaddyG

Georgia fired the first diplomatic salvo in the border dispute...

A RESOLUTION urging the United States Census Bureau to utilize the correct Georgia-North Carolina and Georgia-Tennessee boundary lines at the 35th parallel for census purposes; and for other purposes.

...oh, wait. Wrong Georgia. Never mind.

Putin will tell us that no one bitched when W.T. Sherman used the same tactics to fix our little problem with our own Georgia, so why should people complain now.

109 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:00:02pm

re: #56 zombie

WTF, indeed.

110 Wendya  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:00:05pm

re: #81 zombie


I repeat:

WTF?

Not surprising. That's always been an element of tribal rivalries as well.

I ran across a website yesterday bragging that "Ossetians look more European" than people in the surrounding areas.

111 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:01:33pm

re: #48 steveoh

No mention of the crucial oil line to the west? "Premier" Vladimir Putin is playing his cards just as the old block soviets did. Timing, and predictable outcome.

I can't believe we bailed those sob's out when they were down. We should have let them rot. All of the financial and logistical support we gave to Russia.

I'm disgusted.

* * *
Didn't Al Bore & Bill Clinton help bail the Russians out?

112 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:05:24pm

re: #59 WriterMom

Beet? I'm a cabbage borscht gal...

I was communing with my dad's ancestors in the Russian Pale and Poland . . .

113 cygnus  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:05:56pm

re: #50 JammieWearingFool

The beach volleyball was in China.

And I'm sure the tickets were sold out in about 5 minutes. I wish that I had a tushie like that!

114 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:06:18pm

re: #103 Ford_Prefect

Yeah. We just keep nursing this line of humor along.

115 calcajun  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:06:46pm

re: #113 cygnus

And I'm sure the tickets were sold out in about 5 minutes. I wish that I had a tushie like that!

Why stop at one? Two would be better.

116 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:07:57pm

re: #106 DeafDog

He could do so under the war powers act. Will he? Who knows... the whole situation is moving along very, very quickly... almost as of very well planned in advance on the Russian side...

imo we'll just have to see if the law of unintended consequences throws any kind of monkey wrench into Russia's land grab or not... There's probably going to be a huge disconnect between what should be done and what will be done that will favor doing the worst thing for the long run...

117 cygnus  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:08:00pm

re: #63 calcajun

Anyone who tries that here must be in his cups.

D-cups.

118 cygnus  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:09:06pm

re: #82 Ford_Prefect

You know this topic really is important and we should try to keep abreast.

Yes, don't be a boob.

119 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:10:56pm

re: #56 zombie

Sounds so outrageous that it could conceivably be anti-Serbian.

However, never underestimate Serbian weirdness... If I had to bet, I'd say it's legit.

120 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:12:27pm

re: #108 calcajun

Putin will tell us that no one bitched when W.T. Sherman used the same tactics to fix our little problem with our own Georgia, so why should people complain now.

You are tragically on to something there. (and a good portion of the locals are still sore about that illegal incursion into the Virginias and points further South). Something tells me Putin doesn't even care if his justification is even that thin. Even my teenage kids with public school educations noticed the parallels with Germany's expansion in the 30's.

Sadly, I no longer wonder how people "could have been that stupid" back in the 1930's as Germany and Japan annexed a goodly portion of their neighbors and used ethnic ties and outdated borders as an excuse.

121 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:13:00pm

re: #105 Peacekeeper

Assets?

122 medaura18586  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:13:58pm

re: #81 zombie

OK, the plot thickens, and connects to the Russian-Georgia situation.

In this post on the same blog, the author writes a pro-Russian white supremacist anti-Georgian racist rant:


I repeat:

WTF?

Then he MUST be actually Serbian. Serbia is Russia's mini-me. The other option would be for the author to be Croatian or Kosovar pretending to be Serb (both nationalities speak Serbo-Croat, Kosovars albeit as a second language) but no Croat, and less so any Kosovar, would ever take Russia's side in pretty much, anything.

It's legit!

I echo your 'WTF!'

123 Westward Ho  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:14:36pm

re: #45 anotherindyfilmguy

Theoretically the US could:
Start an air campaign and destroy every single Russian jet/tank/apc/russian vehicle in Georgia...
Sink every Russian warship/sub everywhere in the world...
Park an aircraft carrier group in the region and both bomb the snot out of the Russians in Georgia and anything the Russians put to Will we?
Doubt it...

Theoretically Russia could nuke every major American city.... I am astonished at the no. of Lizards risking nuclear anhilation over a caucasian blood feud. Infuckingcredible!

124 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:14:41pm

re: #116 anotherindyfilmguy

He could, maybe, but that's playing the biggest card first. The immediate public outcry would be deafening and then the armed forces would need to execute flawlessly or the repercussions would be disasterous. One mistake in execution of the plan and there would be calls for impeachment. One mistake in execution and there would be 0 republicans in congress after the 2008 election. The Russians know this and so they know the US can't act.

The prez could call back congress and say he wants authority to act while he repositioned forces. If congress approved, then Russia would know they face that threat.

125 Sunlight  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:17:52pm

re: #43 paradox42

Maybe I went too far on that one.
I think I'll just not say anything about her, since I have nothing nice to say.

Too late. Like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube after you've squeezed it out.

126 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:20:01pm

re: #123 Westward Ho
Get a grip. Putin may have imperial delusions but he will not escalate to the point of a nuclear confrontation.

127 steveoh  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:22:11pm

re: #111 alegrias

I can see it now. Flashback: Boris and Bill drinking a scotch and a vodka, and then a few more. A couple of hotties and a few cigars. Bill signs the check. In walks Gore. Red faced with embarrassment he runs out of the Oval Office. "Not very prudent Mr. President. Boris and Bill share a hearty laugh. "hey come on over here honey!"

128 Westward Ho  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:24:25pm

re: #126 pingjockey

And you prefer to rely on Putin's sanity after entering into a shooting war with him? Where is the sense of proportion in this the cost benefit analysis?

129 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:29:58pm

re: #128 Westward Ho
Okay, so we send the message to all the former Soviet vassal states that now have freely elected democracies, sorry, it is to dangerous for the US to support you, you're on your own. Which BTW, we have offered NATO membership to some. We now look like the west europeans as Hitler started to gobble up territory.

130 Joan Not of Arc  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:36:04pm

If Russia is ever going to give up its prize of South Ossetia/Georgia- and I doubt it will- the Western powers will have to give it something in return.
Russia is getting away with it again.

131 chalala  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:43:17pm

"President Mikheil Saakashvili has indeed been buying weapons in preparation for this moment".

All free nations living next door to Putin should go out and buy guns, big guns, and point them in the right direction. I believe quite a few of the eastern European nations have done just that in later years, they know what's coming, most of them have small enclaves of Russians still living there, I guess they will need a hand against genocidal hosts..

It is a good thing that most of western Europe has reduced defense spending to a minimum, maintaining mostly the stripe-wearing cocktail-drinkers..

132 Land Shark  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:48:11pm

re: #64 Wendya

Yeah, just sit back and let Russian continue to manipulate the situation through South Ossetia.

It's just so easy to sit back here in America or Europe and tell another country to just take whatever Putin hands out because fighting back might screw up your personal interests.

But at some point in time common sense has to prevail. Georgia, no way, no how, can defeat Russia in a war. Russia's military is much larger than Georgia's by several orders of magnitude. For them to think the Russians would just sit back and take the Georgians launching a war against their "citizens", even if they are Russian citizens in name only, is quite silly. NATO is in no position to help them, just look at the geography of the area. No way anybody could help them before the Russians took over the country. No matter how right your cause, you can't just lose your mind and forget the reality of the military situation.

You've got to be realistic. The Georgian President took an idiotic gamble, attacking while not yet a NATO member with no assurance that NATO could or would even make an attempt to help his country. If he didn't realize that the Russians would use the opportunity to take him out, if not the entire country, then he is dumber than I thought. I support Georgia in this issue, but their President took an irresponsible gamble with his country and lost.

133 Westward Ho  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:54:22pm

re: #129 pingjockey

And what do you expect Russia to do just grin and bear it while she is completely encircled? All this would have been possible if the Soviets had been obliterated in the battle field like Germany or Japan but they were not.
There are lots of strategists who think that the NATO push eastward is the modern equivalent of a Versailles pact in that it is rubbing in the dirt the face of a once very powerful country ( and still the second greatest nuclear power ). I personally beleive that NATO's intentions are not malign with respect to Russia but try convincing the famously paranoid Russians that.
Putin's clever energy strategy has meant that to contain Russia Europe needs alternate gas supplies.

134 RememberSekhmet?  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:17:49pm

re: #56 zombie

Zombie, there are some seriously fscked up people in this world.

135 Egfrow  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:28:42pm

At this point. Russia is positioning for a full invasion of Georgia. They will be taking on the complete Country. Beware of any websites or blogs defending Russia's actions. Their motives should be very questionable.

136 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:36:39pm

re: #135 Egfrow

It's not just blogs -- it's also the BBC which is asserting that the Russians are now withdrawing and that 1) the whole thing started due to Georgian aggression 2) the Russians are simply "peacekeepers" 3) the Georgians are liars and trying to claim the situation is far worse than reality.

137 Dolce  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:37:47pm

What I really hate is not so much what the Russians are doing (which is AWFUL) because they've been doing it since 1916. What I hate is our attitude in the West, especially the attitude of our intellectuals. Although we may not be able to do much against them because of political/strategic/economic reasons etc, we may well (and should) express our utter contempt for Russian behaviour. Where are all the people who are ready to organise petitions,signature collections, manifestoes etcetera? Where are the demonstrations, the placards, the candles, the wakes and so on? Where are the peace flags?

138 Joan Not of Arc  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:36:31pm

re: #137 Dolce

Big fat freaking word.
The West since the beginning of the Soviet Union has been more than willing to look the other way. Communism has claimed more lives than the Second World War. Russia has flaunted its crimes. When is anyone going to speak up and put an end to it?

139 Pastorius  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:45:32pm

Georgia should step back from the brink?

That sounds like Pragmatist bullshit.

Should Poland anc Czechoslovakia have pulled back from the brink?

What is this crap?

140 quickjustice  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:37:38pm

With due respect, Appelbaum is just plain wrong about Georgian motives.

The Georgians clearly perceived that the Russians were using a "salami strategy" of taking territory in incremental bites, granting "Russian citizenship" to rebels in disaffected regions, and then claiming that the Russian military was protecting those "Russians" to establish its hegemony within Georgia.

They must have decided that forcing the issue was a gamble worth taking, rather than dying the death of a thousand, incremental slices. If their plight was sufficiently dramatized, perhaps their Western allies, including the U.S., would stand on principle for a change. Fat chance.

By acting as the trip wire that warns the West of a revanchist Russia capable of naked aggression, the Georgians nonetheless have done all of us a great service.

141 Wendya  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 9:57:03pm

re: #132 Land Shark


You've got to be realistic. The Georgian President took an idiotic gamble, attacking while not yet a NATO member with no assurance that NATO could or would even make an attempt to help his country. If he didn't realize that the Russians would use the opportunity to take him out, if not the entire country, then he is dumber than I thought. I support Georgia in this issue, but their President took an irresponsible gamble with his country and lost.

What choice did he have? Do you really think Putin would be content to sit back cooling his heels? This was planned. It just didn't come out of the blue this weekend. Do you really think those troops just happened to be in the neighborhood when Putin decided to roll an additional 10k into Georgia?

BTW, Georgia didn't "attack". S Ossetia is not a sovereign nation, it is a territory of Georgia. It isn't even a recognized and official autonomous region. If Georgia chooses to put down an insurrection that is killing its citizens, it has every right to do so.

142 deester  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 7:51:53am

re: #95 yochanan


ukraine has to watch there back for sure. remember eastern ukraine is russian populated and thus an excuse for russian imperalism.

Yes, Russia is probably already planning their next 'annexation'. Hilter bit off a few small pieces before taking the big bites.

143 Land Shark  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 9:34:52am

re: #141 Wendya

It still doesn't change the fact Georgia has started something it can't finish. Yes, they attacked what is technically their territory, and no doubt the Russians were waiting for something like this. But they still had a choice in the matter. Keep what's left of your country and stick to diplomacy or gamble it on on a gambit with far more risks than rewards. Their president played right into Russia's hands. Had the Georgians not attacked they wouldn't be in the process of getting overrun by a far larger foe. It's like Bermuda launching an attack against the US.

Given Russia's history, their response was quite predictable and it looks like instead of losing some territory they are going to lose the whole country. Like I said, I support Georgia and am appalled at the Russian reaction. But they acted in foolish desperation and are now in a far worst situation than before. No question this action shows the true brutal nature of the current Russian regime, and they are going to use it to display their might and resolve.

And anyone who compares this situation to that of Czechoslovakia in the 1930s is ignoring several significant differences. Czechoslovakia did not attack the Sudetenland, and German forces ("peace keepers") were not present there either. This is a completely different animal.


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