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Russian Foreign Minister: 'Saakashvili Must Go'

Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:44:52 am PDT

Here’s a press release from the United States Ambassador to the UN, Zalmay Khalilzad, on a disturbing statement by Russian foreign minister Lavrov that reveals Russia’s true endgame in the Georgia conflict: Remarks by Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad, U.S. Permanent Representative, on the situation in Georgia.

I want to focus however, on one point that Ambassador Churkin made. Ambassador Churkin referred to his minister’s phone conversation with Secretary of State Rice this morning. That conversation raises serious questions about Russian objectives.

In that conversation, Foreign Minister Lavrov told U.S. Secretary of State Rice that the democratically elected President of Georgia “must go”.

I quote again: “Saakashvili must go.”

This is completely unacceptable and crosses a line. I want to ask Ambassador Churkin, is your government’s objective regime change in Georgia, the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Georgia. Mr. President, Russia must affirm their aim is not to change the democratically elected government of Georgia and it accepts the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Georgia .

Mr. President, Russia is threatening the territorial integrity of Georgia and this Council must act decisively to reaffirm the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Georgia.

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1 Cognito  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:45:40am

As expected.

Next: the march to Tbilisi.

2 mglazer  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:46:12am

I knew it!

And we still wont do squat!

3 mglazer  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:46:42am

We dont help ourselves why help our allies!?

4 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:48:47am

Right on Zalmay!

5 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:49:45am

We had better confront Putin now. I don't think he wants a shooting war with us, then again imperial dreams are dancing in his head. If we don't help, the Ukraine is next on the chopping block.

6 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:12am

Fine. But I think it is about time Hugo went also!

7 vapig  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:46am

What a surprise! Now insert puppet government *HERE*!

8 Opinionated  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:50:50am

It's not just a call at 3AM.

It's 24/7.

Who do you trust?

I'm John McCain and I approve this message.

9 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:51:45am

re: #1 Cognito

As expected.

Next: the march to Tbilisi.

Aren't they almost there already?

10 zombie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:51:56am

OK, this is totally crazy.

You know how there have been ongoing arguments here about Serbia, and Serbian morals?

And you know how I had a disturbing report about a public sex fair in San Francisco?

Well, those two topics couldn't possibly be less connected to each other -- right?

Right?

Wrong.

Because I just discovered this completely mind-boggling page. It seems to be (and I'd be willing to be corrected - it's hard to decipher) a hyper-militant Serbian nationalist who at the same time (?!?!?!?!?) is in favor of public gay sex, and accuses me of being a "nazi-fascist anti-gay." Then he goes on to copy my ENTIRE "Up Your Alley" report without permission, and posts this screed as an introduction:

INTERNET NOVINE SERBSKE

Death to nazi-fascist anti-gays! Die of jealosy because we achieved goal of open luvvvvv towards our fellow man!

Long live San Francisco, ciity of gay pride and parade!

Only and only when whole World reaches this ultimate fruits of freedom and democracy like we achieved in our beloved San Francisco, we will reach our goal of "Love your man like yourself".

Here are pinacles of freedom one can see only in the societies with perfectly established democracy, societies where nazi-fascists-antigays and Hakenkreutz scrabblers are instantly confined to GULAGs.

All those happy, free gays would be forced to carry pink armbands on the sleeves in cruel nazi regimes!

He really takes Godwin's Law to new heights!

What I simply can't understand is the addition of photoshops of Bill Clinton and Al Gore in leather fetish gear -- as if that was some kind of put down of them. But if the maker of the page likes Up Your Alley, then in what way is that an insult toward Clinton and Gore (the bombers of Belgrade).

Could it be that the entire page is an anti-Serbian hoax page? Additional evidence for this is a picture of naked gay guys in San Francisco with the caption, "SRBI U SAN FRANCSKU" which I can presume means "Serbs in San Francisco."

WTF??????

11 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:52:09am

re: #9 MandyManners

Aren't they almost there already?

An hour or so away.

12 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:52:24am

This was the objective.

13 Sizzlack  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:52:59am

Ah those baby steps to recreate the U.S.S.R. The baby is starting to get a little bigger.

14 zombie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:53:01am

OK, the plot thickens, and connects to the Russian-Georgia situation.

In this post on the same blog, the author writes a pro-Russian white supremacist anti-Georgian racist rant:

Ossetians are White race and were always pro-Russians. Russians and Ossets mingled and intermerried without problem same as Russians and Ukrainians, Balts, even Poles. They are of same religion as Gruzini - "Georgians", christian orthodox but Gruzini are far from White race, wavy greasy black hair, short, with long trunks and extremelly short legs, brown, olive skin, huge, egg-plant type noses and Ossets or Ossetins are Whites.

I repeat:

WTF??????

15 Cognito  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:53:06am

re: #10 zombie

Come on, dude. Or dudette.

16 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:53:12am

The anti-war rhetoric espoused by the demorats is going to doom the freedom of the world.

Get some gonads George and threaten, then act.. We have the right and the might...........DOIT NOW !

17 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:53:52am

Zomb. let it go, you're only giving him wider publicity.

18 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:54:01am

re: #11 Nevergiveup

An hour or so away.

Forty miles from the north is the last I heard.

19 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:54:16am

When Russia gets the feeling the west won't fight for its Allies then watch out... Eastern Europe/more of the Middle East is next.

20 Sizzlack  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:54:48am

re: #18 MandyManners

I heard 35 at last check. Clearly on the move.

21 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:55:46am

The best we can hope for is a Russian withdrawal (having made their point) and a UN peacekeeping force, much like the one protecting Lebanon from Iran....

22 Sizzlack  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:56:11am

Is the Daily Kos totally silent about this?

My guess is oh yes.

23 opnion  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:56:53am

Well, Afghanistan did not work out well for Russia. Seems they foud somebady , that they think the can beat.

24 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:57:04am

I'm starting to wonder how this new Soviet Russian boldness is going to effect the situation with Iran. How far are the Russians going to go on defending their Iranian allies?

25 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:57:28am

re: #21 Peacekeeper

The best we can hope for is a Russian withdrawal (having made their point) and a UN peacekeeping force, much like the one protecting Lebanon from Iran....

NO...The bes we can hope for is an IMMEDIATE response from all
freedom loving nations! NOW!

26 Killgore Trout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:57:44am

re: #22 Sizzlack

No, they are blaming Bush. they claim it's a conspiracy to raise oil prices.

27 zombie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:57:45am

re: #17 Peacekeeper

Zomb. let it go, you're only giving him wider publicity.

Just trying to decipher it, that's all. It's kind of unnerving when someone copies one's entire essay without permission -- and you can't even tell for what purpose!

I didn't realize there was a racist component to this war: Russians and Ossetians are perceived as "white", whereas Georgians are swarthy untermenschen. Totally whacked!

28 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:58:08am

ARMED RESPONSE, bombs and all

29 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:58:16am

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I'm starting to wonder how this new Soviet Russian boldness is going to effect the situation with Iran. How far are the Russians going to go on defending their Iranian allies?

Just like we are not going to go to war over Georgia, Russia will only bitch and moan if we bomb Iran.

30 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:58:48am
31 Athos  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:59:06am

re: #21 Peacekeeper

The Russians are pressing for a complete regime change and then a UN peacekeeping force as a sham as they consolidate their gains and put in place Putin's puppet.

I am guessing the call regarding a UN peacekeeping force is sarcasim given we know just how dedicated and useful they are.....with the exception of corruption, incompetence, and child prostitution / raping....the blue hats do very little.

32 blutonazi98  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:59:12am

Putin end game,

friendly govt in Georgia or even friendlier satellite country

33 Killian Bundy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:59:52am

Well this sucks. I wonder if they'll end up dragging him out of a spider hole?

/at least we went through the U.N. and got authorization for Iraq

34 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 11:59:59am

The nations of Western Europe/the rest of the world should blockade/barricade Russia. Stop all trade and movement into and out of Russia that can be done.
Bomb their forces in Georgia and drive them out with whatever force is needed.
Regime change for Russia!

Do it now or face more dire consequences later.

35 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:00:22pm

Zombie that's the mindset of the Russian electorate...

36 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:00:33pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

No, they are blaming Bush. they claim it's a conspiracy to raise oil prices.

Waddah buncha' dumb-fucks.

37 paradox42  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:00:35pm

re: #29 Nevergiveup

That's a good point, and might be a good way to respond. I think Bush should tell Putin: "You attack our ally, we crush yours." If Putin backs off, we win. If he doesn't we've neutralized a threat, and still win.

38 blutonazi98  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:00:40pm

did we backdoor OK this to Putin in return for Russian support for upcoming attack on Iran?

/by support i mean looking the other way

39 zombie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:00:51pm

re: #15 Cognito

Come on, dude. Or dudette.

C'mon what?

I'm getting links to this report from foreign-language sites all over the globe (even more than from English-language sites), and I'm just trying to check out a handful of them to see why it's being linked to. Every page I look at is crazier than the one before! Swedish, Brazilian, Latvian -- on and on it goes. I thought it was pretty intriguing, that's all.

40 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:00:58pm

Okay, everybody. Just relax. United Nations is going to have an Emergency Session. It'll be okay by tomorrow.

41 Killian Bundy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:01:00pm

re: #16 Dizzy26

Get some gonads George and threaten, then act.. We have the right and the might...........DOIT NOW !

/do what?

42 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:01:08pm
Saakashvili must go

Using one's own rhetoric against them.

Leftist tactic.

They'll make a rhetorically similar arguement to that of Bush's with Iraq, making both meaningless.

43 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:01:19pm

re: #28 Dizzy26

re: #28 Dizzy26

ARMED RESPONSE, bombs and all

Yeah, you first. See your local recruiter.

44 DaddyG  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:01:47pm

Georgia fired the first diplomatic salvo in the border dispute...

A RESOLUTION urging the United States Census Bureau to utilize the correct Georgia-North Carolina and Georgia-Tennessee boundary lines at the 35th parallel for census purposes; and for other purposes.

...oh, wait. Wrong Georgia. Never mind.

45 nacazo  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:01:55pm

Everybody sounds like there's nothing we can do. We can supply arms to Georgia. We have bases in Turkey if the ports are blocked. We supplied arms to Afghanistan when the Soviet Union invaded. How come we cannot defend a real democracy?

46 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:01:55pm

re: #39 zombie

You've been co-opted for Gay Pr0n!

47 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:01:56pm

re: #42 Ben Hur

Using one's own rhetoric against them.

Leftist tactic.

They'll make a rhetorically similar arguement to that of Bush's with Iraq, making both meaningless.


And the world will buy it.

Because this is the world that still refers to SAMAH as "democratically elected."

They won't see the difference.

48 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:02:22pm

re: #5 pingjockey

We had better confront Putin now. I don't think he wants a shooting war with us, then again imperial dreams are dancing in his head. If we don't help, the Ukraine is next on the chopping block.

Ukraine, Baku, Armenia, Poland, the Baltics, and even Turkey could be in trouble. Where do we draw a line in the dirt and tell Putin to knock it off? I'd say Georgia is a good place to do so, before it grows into something much, much larger.

49 kerfuffle  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:02:26pm

Remember....

"...Only a few minutes after parting with Khrushchev, Kennedy, a World War II veteran, told James Reston of The New York Times that the summit meeting had been the ‘roughest thing in my life.' Kennedy went on: ‘He just beat the hell out of me. I've got a terrible problem if he thinks I'm inexperienced and have no guts. Until we remove those ideas we won't get anywhere with him.'

"A little more than two months later, Khrushchev gave the go-ahead to begin erecting what would become the Berlin Wall.... The following spring, Khrushchev made plans to ‘throw a hedgehog at Uncle Sam's pants': nuclear missiles in Cuba. And while there were many factors that led to the missile crisis, it is no exaggeration to say that the impression Khrushchev formed at Vienna - of Kennedy as ineffective - was among them."

The US and Europe are showing the same weakness to Putin now. And not only to Putin, but to the mad mullahs in Iran as well.

50 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:02:37pm

re: #37 paradox42

That's a good point, and might be a good way to respond. I think Bush should tell Putin: "You attack our ally, we crush yours." If Putin backs off, we win. If he doesn't we've neutralized a threat, and still win.

We should make it quite clear to Putin that any sale of OFFENSIVE weapons to any regime in the western hemisphere will NOT be tolerated. Roll back them clocks 45 years boys!

51 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:03:05pm

re: #39 zombie
You have a point there. Alice in Wonderland had nothing on the Web.

52 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:03:13pm

UN Emergency session called.

They still haven't broken their own "Holy shit better call a emergency session because the IDF farted" record yet, though.

53 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:03:19pm

re: #10 zombie haha i caught that on last thread( they are moving so quickly i can't keep up) but i did offer to share my morphine drip, (it's all nuts lately) and i can hardly keep track of who's where and affiliated with whom, and wtf!

54 bgb!  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:03:25pm

Maybe Obama should sit them down explain to them the he is the one they have been waiting for.

55 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:03:35pm

re: #40 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay, everybody. Just relax. United Nations The League of Nations is going to have an Emergency Session. It'll be okay by tomorrow.

/What's the difference?

56 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:03:47pm
57 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:03:52pm

re: #52 Ben Hur

To bad Russia has veto power for the so called security council...

58 Joan Not of Arc  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:03:53pm

Russia, longing to return to its Soviet bloc size, will roll over any region it wants to if nothing is done to stop its action in Georgia/South Ossetia. If South Ossetia doesn't want anything to do with Georgia, then that problem must be settled by them. Russia cannot interfere politically or militarily. That is why it is important to stop them now.

59 Sizzlack  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:03:55pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

No, they are blaming Bush. they claim it's a conspiracy to raise oil prices.

Who woulda thought that DKos was a trendsetter? Hating Bush is clearly this and last years (and the previous half decades) fad. War in Georgia? Blame Bush! High Gas Prices? Blame Bush! Food Emporium is out of low fat Dannon yogurt? Ohhhhh that sneaky sneaky bastard...Bush!

60 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:04:13pm

re: #57 anotherindyfilmguy

To bad Russia has veto power for the so called security council...


Good point.

61 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:04:58pm

re: #55 Honorary Yooper

/What's the difference?

Well the Mets and Dodgers play in the National....oh league of nations...never mind.

62 Killian Bundy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:05:16pm

re: #58 Joan Not of Arc

That is why it is important to stop them now.

/how?

63 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:05:38pm

re: #59 Sizzlack
i read that same thing, yes we are now in control of Russia (our puppets) and we are doing everything for OIL!)
sheesh bwahaha?/

64 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:05:56pm

re: #43 Peacekeeper

re: #28 Dizzy26

Yeah, you first. See your local recruiter.

Been there.....1959-1963 still wiilling-even if the rest are too scared and
gutless to respond.

65 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:06:01pm

Here are some ideas about what might be done - by an eminent Lizard.
I'm reposting this, in case you missed it in the downstairs thread ...

66 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:06:25pm

What will Coca-Cola say?

67 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:06:46pm

re: #25 Dizzy26

Begging your pardon, but it's easy to say NOW. You are silent as to what.

68 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:06:55pm

re: #54 bgb!

Maybe Obama should sit them down explain to them the he is the one they have been waiting for.

Putin would chew him up and spit him out in under one minute.

69 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:06:56pm

Putin today blame President Bush for all the problems in Georgia and also claimed Bush is the father of Rielle Hunter's baby!

70 paradox42  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:07:06pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

On the one hand, they claim that Bush is a blithering idiot.
On the other hand, they claim that Bush is the evil mastermind behind everything and anything that goes wrong in the world.

How the hell do you hold two mutually opposing views at the same time? What is their major malfunction?

71 RedDish  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:07:55pm

The Huffpo-opers think it's a vast right wing conspiracy to give the election to McCain.

[Link: media.nationalreview.com...]

Link from Media Blog---didn't have enough computer bleach to visit the Huffpo site...

72 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:08:08pm

Top Secret Obama Training Video

73 opnion  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:08:20pm

re: #69 Nevergiveup

Putin today blame President Bush for all the problems in Georgia and also claimed Bush is the father of Rielle Hunter's baby!

Right & Bush is the REAL killer of Nichole Simpson.

74 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:09:12pm

Zal Khalilzad, as an Afghan-American, knows something about Soviets meddling in his homeland.

Glad he's on our Bush Team and not taking crap from Russia at the UN.

Crack that whip, Zalmay.

75 trailortrash  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:09:22pm

[Link: www.abovetopsecret.com...]

76 gman  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:09:52pm

re: #22 Sizzlack

Is the Daily Kos totally silent about this?

My guess is oh yes.

I just went over to that site to bear witness to the outrage.
I knew that the "Give Peace a Chance" crowd would be wanting both sides to put an end to hostilities because innocent civilians were being killed.

Guess again, no outrage at dailykos about the crisis and the hypocrisy continues....

77 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:10:22pm

re: #65 yma o hyd

Here are some ideas about what might be done - by an eminent Lizard.
I'm reposting this, in case you missed it in the downstairs thread ...

Who was that masked man?!?

78 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:10:33pm

China should interrupt the Olympics over this Russian crime against humanity.

79 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:10:35pm
80 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:10:37pm

Mikheil Saakashvili implored the US and Europe to act in its defense:
Ostensibly, this war is about an unresolved separatist conflict. Yet in reality, it is a war about the independence and the future of Georgia. And above all, it is a war over the kind of Europe our children will live in. Let us be frank: This conflict is about the future of freedom in Europe.
No country of the former Soviet Union has made more progress toward consolidating democracy, eradicating corruption and building an independent foreign policy than Georgia. This is precisely what Russia seeks to crush.
This conflict is therefore about our common trans-Atlantic values of liberty and democracy. It is about the right of small nations to live freely and determine their own future. It is about the great power struggles for influence of the 20th century, versus the path of integration and unity defined by the European Union of the 21st. Georgia has made its choice

81 aaron  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:10:44pm

To the best of my knowledge, there is no ethnic Russian population to defend in Iran.

Just sayin...

82 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:10:48pm

I can see Obama using his amsterful speaking skills with Putin.

" I know that I don't look like the Presidents that you are used to dealing with. This is my time and my time is now. We can bring change. I am asking you to believe in me, believe in yourself: Si Se Puede! Are you with me Vlad?"

83 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:11:28pm

man that comment hit me where i live. i feel we must do something STRONG

84 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:11:29pm

re: #82 Peacekeeper

See my #72

85 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:12:26pm

re: #81 aaron

To the best of my knowledge, there is no ethnic Russian population to defend in Iran.

Just sayin...

How many ethnic Germans were living around Stalingrad?

86 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:12:33pm
Sheikh Hameed al-Hayyes, a Sunni elder, told Reuters: "They even killed female goats because their private parts were not covered and their tails were pointed upward, which they said was haram.

"They regarded the cucumber as male and tomato as female. Women were not allowed to buy cucumbers, only men."

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

87 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:12:43pm

re: #52 Ben Hur

UN Emergency session called.

They still haven't broken their own "Holy shit better call a emergency session because the IDF farted" record yet, though.

USSR will veto.

88 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:12:50pm

re: #67 MikeySDCA

Begging your pardon, but it's easy to say NOW. You are silent as to what.

as I said, "get some gonads and act!"

Call his bluff by fast, immediate and TOTAL military response..NOW!

89 Cygnus  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:12:53pm

re: #26 Killgore Trout

No, they are blaming Bush. they claim it's a conspiracy to raise oil prices.

If a star in Canis Major went supernova, they would blame Bush.

90 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:12:56pm

re: #72 Ben Hur

Top Secret Obama Training Video

yes oh master obama i am at your command oh enlightened lightworker

91 Peacekeeper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:13:10pm

re: #84 Ben Hur

If they can get Putin to sit still for thirty seconds they'll win.

92 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:13:37pm

New democracy Georgia had 2000 troops fighting with us in Iraq.

Iraq must help defend Georgia by stepping up its own self-defense, and allowing the US to aid Georgia.

Al Maliki, you've got oil and its time for you to guard your fort

93 SpaceJesus  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:13:38pm

well, if their president is guilty of permitting the killing of civilians in south ossetia, then he should be held responsible.

94 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:13:56pm

re: #9 MandyManners

Aren't they almost there already?

35 miles out. But then again yesterday Russia said they were not in Georgia. And the day before that they were there to protect "Russian" citizens, wherever they may be. Surprise, the Russians lied.

95 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:14:07pm

re: #88 Dizzy26

Bomb Moscow? What's total?

96 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:14:38pm

So Russia has basically divided Georgia in half...
They're just outside the Capital!
Russia is calling for the resignation of a democratically
elected Gov...
Yet Russia tells the west(us) that Georgia is the
aggressor?
Have I got this striaght?
Or.... WTF is going on over there!

97 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:14:38pm

re: #82 Peacekeeper

I can see Obama using his amsterful speaking skills with Putin.

" I know that I don't look like the Presidents that you are used to dealing with. This is my time and my time is now. We can bring change. I am asking you to believe in me, believe in yourself: Si Se Puede! Are you with me Vlad?"

Poifect.

98 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:15:46pm

re: #96 reloadingisnotahobby

So Russia has basically divided Georgia in half...
They're just outside the Capital!
Russia is calling for the resignation of a democratically
elected Gov...
Yet Russia tells the west(us) that Georgia is the
aggressor?
Have I got this striaght?
Or.... WTF is going on over there!

They are knitting a new iron curtain, and Churchill is rolling over in his grave!

99 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:15:53pm

re: #72 Ben Hur

Great!Thanks for the headache!
Ha!

100 Adrenalyn  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:15:56pm

aw come on Bush
send Jessie over there to cut Putin's nuts off
like he wants to do to Obama

better yet, send Jessie AND Obama over there to mediate

101 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:16:06pm

re: #94 kevinmumaw

35 miles out. But then again yesterday Russia said they were not in Georgia. And the day before that they were there to protect "Russian" citizens, wherever they may be. Surprise, the Russians lied.

Oh noezzzzzzzzzz.

102 opnion  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:16:21pm

I really can't see the UN doing much of anything.
Russia of curse as a permanent Security Council member will veto anything.
The main body? Georgia is viewed as a U.S ally. Most of those nations are enjoying this.
Remember when Hugo Chavez was doing his Diablo routine about Bush?
They were whoppin & hollerin almost like Trinity United for Reverend Wright.
We shoul get out of the U.N or at the very least have dual membership in a newly created organization of Demiocracies.
McCain has that right.

103 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:16:21pm

re: #96 reloadingisnotahobby

So Russia has basically divided Georgia in half...
They're just outside the Capital!
Russia is calling for the resignation of a democratically
elected Gov...
Yet Russia tells the west(us) that Georgia is the
aggressor?
Have I got this striaght?
Or.... WTF is going on over there!


Welcome to the Israelasphere.

104 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:16:38pm

re: #93 SpaceJesus

We don't have solid information yet on what happened.

The Russians still have no right to demand the disappearance of a democratically elected leader of a sovereign nation.

This demonstrates that Russia is going to conquer Georgia.

105 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:16:52pm

re: #14 zombie

OK, the plot thickens, and connects to the Russian-Georgia situation.

In this post on the same blog, the author writes a pro-Russian white supremacist anti-Georgian racist rant:

I repeat:

WTF?

How does he feel about the Obamamessiah?

106 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:17:10pm

re: #96 reloadingisnotahobby

We're idiots? Spineless wimps? Betrayers of our allies?

107 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:17:40pm

re: #95 MikeySDCA

Bomb Moscow? What's total?

Not too bad for a start, is it?

108 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:17:56pm

re: #96 reloadingisnotahobby

Actually in the present campaign, Georgia was the aggressor. They failed.

109 maddogg  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:18:41pm

The Georgians are not in a position to argue. Nobody is coming to help them. They are screwed.

110 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:18:43pm

re: #94 kevinmumaw

35 miles out. But then again yesterday Russia said they were not in Georgia. And the day before that they were there to protect "Russian" citizens, wherever they may be. Surprise, the Russians lied.

Impossible.

Someone on the earlier thread said that the BBC anchor called the Georgians out and said that the idea the Russians were in Gori was "RUBBISH."

BBC rules.

111 mglazer  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:18:50pm

Who has time for this!?

Lets watch the beauties on the Olympics!

Thanks to the Hellenistics Greeks and our copying their hedonistic lifestyles.

112 Killian Bundy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:18:51pm

re: #78 alegrias

China should interrupt the Olympics over this Russian crime against humanity.

Yeah, because China is adamantly against the invasion and brutal repression of other countries.

/they're hosting the Olympics in spite of Tibet

113 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:19:03pm

re: #31 Athos

The Russians are pressing for a complete regime change and then a UN peacekeeping force as a sham as they consolidate their gains and put in place Putin's puppet.

I am guessing the call regarding a UN peacekeeping force is sarcasim given we know just how dedicated and useful they are.....with the exception of corruption, incompetence, and child prostitution / raping....the blue hats do very little.

The next thing you know Putin will be calling for a regime change here in the United States.

114 RedDish  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:19:22pm

re: #108 MikeySDCA

Because Obama said it, therefor it must be so.

115 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:19:28pm

re: #108 MikeySDCA

Actually in the present campaign, Georgia was the aggressor. They failed.

When did Georgia fire a shot at Russian soldiers? They were dealing with internal affairs when Putin decided to invade.

116 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:19:39pm

re: #64 Dizzy26

Ok dude, calm down.

117 nacazo  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:19:47pm

re: #37 paradox42

That's a good point, and might be a good way to respond. I think Bush should tell Putin: "You attack our ally, we crush yours." If Putin backs off, we win. If he doesn't we've neutralized a threat, and still win.

I vote Cuba. The satellite where Russia wants to put the bombers. Next Venezuela.

118 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:19:58pm

Hey, Putin? How's this helping Maria and Yekaterina?

119 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:20:25pm

re: #113 The Other Les

The next thing you know Putin will be calling for a regime change here in the United States.

Just like the Democrats?

120 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:20:39pm

re: #22 Sizzlack

Is the Daily Kos totally silent about this?

My guess is oh yes.

Aside from the cheering & blaming Bush for all this.

121 opnion  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:20:39pm

re: #72 Ben Hur

Top Secret Obama Training Video

Now I see where I have been wrong. I have had that epiphany that Barry Hussein promised.
Obama, Obama, Obama, Obaaaaaaaaaama!

122 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:20:46pm

Nissan caves in to the Saudis

9/11 worked.

He who controls the spice controls the universe (and coke and hookers)

123 Spider Mensch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:20:49pm

scene from obama's vacation home in Hawaii....

obama: "oh man. Michelle!? I can't finish my waffle now! I have to make a statement about russia and georgia....damn people, can't a future president get a minute of peace. Boy when I get to that camp David place, I'm ripping every phone out by the jack!...hmmmm ok, Michelle? where's my glow? I told you twice I have to make a statement, and I need my messanic glow....!"

124 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:20:51pm

re: #108 MikeySDCA

Actually in the present campaign, Georgia was the aggressor. They failed.

Georgia invaded Russia?

125 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:21:10pm
126 Iron Fist  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:21:11pm

re: #113 The Other Les

He's just puttin' his faith in the thought that Obama will be the next President of the United States. he won't need to call for regieme change. He'll have his own lap dog in office.

'Course, Obama'll be everybody's bitch.

127 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:21:38pm

It's been a long 72 hours, but we finally have the definitve Obama statement on the Russia-Georgia hostilites:

"That's not the Russia I used to know."

128 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:21:40pm

re: #123 Spider Mensch

scene from obama's vacation home in Hawaii....

obama: "oh man. Michelle!? I can't finish my waffle now! I have to make a statement about russia and georgia....damn people, can't a future president get a minute of peace. Boy when I get to that camp David place, I'm ripping every phone out by the jack!...hmmmm ok, Michelle? where's my glow? I told you twice I have to make a statement, and I need my messanic glow....!"

More like.

What happened?

OK. What should I say?

129 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:21:59pm

re: #108 MikeySDCA

Actually in the present campaign, Georgia was the aggressor. They failed.

Maybe if you're willing to discount the Russian backed agitators, and possibly Russian agent provocateurs that goaded Georgia into a rash act, to allow Russia to claim "They started it."

130 reloadingisnotahobby  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:22:15pm

re: #106 Dianna

Just seems to me ,if this OK there,we should be able to over throw Cuba and just take it!
Would take one division .
Hell !we could do it with out leaving HOME!
Putins a dick!
If there are human right violations...invading is
ah... overkill!

131 Cygnus  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:22:22pm

re: #78 alegrias

China should interrupt the Olympics over this Russian crime against humanity.

Not until Phelps gets his 8th Gold Medal.

132 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:22:34pm

re: #124 MandyManners

Georgia invaded Russia?

"They don't even share a border. None of our 57 states do."
/Obama

133 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:22:36pm

re: #124 MandyManners


and they killed Rissian "Peace keepers"
That is wrong in so many ways! 0-:

134 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:22:49pm

re: #110 Ben Hur

Impossible.

Someone on the earlier thread said that the BBC anchor called the Georgians out and said that the idea the Russians were in Gori was "RUBBISH."

BBC rules.

I was listening to BBC on XM Radio on my commute home and that is where I heard the Russians are in Gori. They need to get their lies straight.

135 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:23:12pm
136 RedDish  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:23:18pm

re: #131 Cygnus
Important thread and all that, but, wasn't that relay race last night the most amazing thing?!

137 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:23:21pm

re: #66 MandyManners

What will Coca-Cola say?

Don't ask me to ride the bomb.

138 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:23:49pm

re: #113 The Other Les

The next thing you know Putin will be calling for a regime change here in the United States.

So what, we have the opportunity for that every four years, with a mandatory one at eight years.

139 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:24:11pm

re: #137 The Other Les

Don't ask me to ride the bomb.

If you gotta go, that's the way to go!

140 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:24:21pm

re: #108 MikeySDCA

Actually in the present campaign, Georgia was the aggressor. They failed.

Which nation crossed the internationally recognized border again?

141 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:24:35pm

re: #78 alegrias

I know it's not so simple, but keep politics out of the Olympics.

142 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:24:46pm

re: #124 MandyManners

Yes, in a sense. Georgia sent troops into South Ossetia, the sovereignty to which is, to but it mildly, debatable, and most of whose inhabitants have Russian passports.

143 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:24:58pm

"President Putin's actions have been very disrespectful of me."

144 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:25:11pm
145 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:25:14pm

re: #141 DeafDog

I know it's not so simple, but keep politics out of the Olympics.

To late!

146 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:25:16pm

re: #130 reloadingisnotahobby

They invaded because they'd planned to. The provocations have been staged for some time, and (sadly) Georgia fell into the trap.

Since we can't seem to go a full decade without hanging an ally out to twist slowly in the wind, we're doing absolutely nothing. We won't do anything about Cuba. We won't help the Georgians.

We won't do anything except bleat and wring our hands.

I am bitterly angry.

147 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:25:39pm

re: #116 Dustoff-507

Ok dude, calm down.

Ok, I'll go back to watching the Olympics, and like evrybody else, when the
real balloon... goes up, join the rest saying, 'whoops', shoulda done something sooner".

148 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:26:10pm

re: #142 MikeySDCA


And from what I've read.... Russia all of a sudden gave them passports... Ya have to wonder why?

149 opnion  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:26:15pm

re: #124 MandyManners

Georgia invaded Russia?

No see, Georgian troops went into a region of Georgia, so they are agressing against themslves. Is that right?

150 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:26:26pm

re: #133 Dustoff-507

The South Ossetians supposedly were the ones shooting at the Russians.

151 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:26:27pm

re: #70 paradox42

On the one hand, they claim that Bush is a blithering idiot.
On the other hand, they claim that Bush is the evil mastermind behind everything and anything that goes wrong in the world.

How the hell do you hold two mutually opposing views at the same time? What is their major malfunction?

Marxist rejection of the Law of Identity and their long standing habit of rewriting reality to make themselves appear to be good.

152 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:27:02pm

re: #148 Dustoff-507

And from what I've read.... Russia all of a sudden gave them passports... Ya have to wonder why?

And giving passports to citizens in the eastern half of Ukraine as well, gee, I wonder who is next?

153 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:27:08pm

re: #141 DeafDog

I know it's not so simple, but keep politics out of the Olympics.


* * *
Bwahahah, that's RICH.

154 jpkoch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:27:13pm

Georgia actually started this conflict. I'm not so sure they expected it to go this way, but I always wondered why they did it. Yes, the Russians were steadily undermining thier goverment, but it seemeds kind of pointless to pick a fight with the biggest kid on the block. And the EU is totally gutless, which means NATO won't doing anything. Russia has a veto on the UN Security Council, so the UN won't do anything.

I don't think Bush has any leverage what's so ever with Putin or the Russian PM. As long as the EU receives the majority of its energy through the Russia, Bush's arms are tied; he isn't going to do anything to interrupt the flow of oil and natural gas from Baku to Berlin and Paris.

If anything, this ordeal underscores the importance of getting Putin Pelosi back into DC and calling a special session of Congress to get laws passed to allow us to drill offshore and mine for shale.

155 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:27:19pm

re: #92 alegrias

I like that idea. Or Al Malacki can say "no Russian contracts in Iraq" till they withdraw to the cease-fire line.

156 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:27:29pm

re: #129 CyanSnowHawk

Maybe if you're willing to discount the Russian backed agitators, and possibly Russian agent provocateurs that goaded Georgia into a rash act, to allow Russia to claim "They started it."

Assuming you believe reports from the Georgians, who are not necessarily telling the truth. Welcome to the Caucasus. Everybody lies.

157 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:27:32pm

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

158 opnion  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:27:54pm

Can you imagine how much Putin would enjoy dealing with that nitwit Barack Hussein?

159 yochanan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:27:57pm

send OBAMA to talk to the russians perferably in south ossentia and do it now.

160 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:28:06pm

re: #148 Dustoff-507

We both know.

161 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:29:14pm

re: #152 kevinmumaw

Want to start laying bets on the time frame? I say Ukraine is a Russian province again by the end of next year.

What do you think? Sooner?

162 nacazo  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:29:23pm

re: #146 Dianna

They invaded because they'd planned to. The provocations have been staged for some time, and (sadly) Georgia fell into the trap.

Since we can't seem to go a full decade without hanging an ally out to twist slowly in the wind, we're doing absolutely nothing. We won't do anything about Cuba. We won't help the Georgians.

We won't do anything except bleat and wring our hands.

I am bitterly angry.

They blockade Georgia. We blockade Cuba.

163 Sunlight  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:29:24pm

re: #52 Ben Hur

UN Emergency session called.

They still haven't broken their own "Holy shit better call a emergency session because the IDF farted" record yet, though.

They better get John Bolton back up there to the U.N. It's going to take steely ones to deal with this, not linguini spines.

164 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:30:12pm

re: #147 Dizzy26


Many of us have served too. But I need not blow my horn, that's all.

165 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:30:16pm

re: #137 The Other Les

Don't ask me to ride the bomb.

We'll meet again!

166 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:30:26pm

i'm starting to think of putin as ivan the terrible in my dreams

167 Midwestprof  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:30:26pm

This may have been stated previously by another lizard or two.

In my mind, this is a test by Putin of NATO. They know very well that the U.N. is useless, so it's no test of test of the U.N., hell, Sudan has bested the U.N.

Putin knows that the main driver behind NATO is the U.S. He knows that we're bogged down in Afghanistan and Iraq, and that Bush's popularity is pretty low. He also knows that Old Europe won't do jack about the Georgia situation, within or outside of NATO. France is starting to show spunk under Sarkozy, but is still in the post-WW2 funk. Ditto Germany and Italy. Span is Spain.

On the other hand, "New Europe," the old Soviet satellite states, will be scared to death to see the resurrection of the old Soviet army. Putin wants to shake them up and let them know who's boss. I.e., "Forget about NATO alliances, the Soviets are back."

So, what do we do? Push back. IMHO.

168 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:30:38pm

re: #150 Dianna


You mean the Peace Keepers.

169 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:30:45pm

re: #142 MikeySDCA

Yes, in a sense. Georgia sent troops into South Ossetia, the sovereignty to which is, to but it mildly, debatable, and most of whose inhabitants have Russian passports.

The Russians handed those passports out!

170 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:31:00pm

Bush Shouldn't Abandon Georgia

President Bush's visit to Georgia in 2005 was one of the most successful foreign trips of his presidency. He embraced the people of Georgia, and the people of Georgia embraced him.


President Bush, under the influence of Georgian food, music and high-concept schmoozing, stayed up celebrating hours past his bedtime. "I learned firsthand what it means to be fed by a Georgian," said Bush right before hitting the dance floor. Georgians were so impressed that they renamed the road to the airport George W. Bush Highway.

To the extent Europeans do hate Bush, that antipathy has been largely confined to Western Europe. President Bush is beloved in many Eastern European countries, especially in Georgia and the Ukraine, because he spoke out against Russian efforts to stifle their democratic reforms. Will President Bush now let down his friend President Mikheil Saakashvili and the Georgian people, just because the Russians would prefer a puppet be put in charge? Will Bush really let the anonymous milquetoast in the administration, who says "We just have to hope that diplomacy prevails," speak for America?

Posted by Jaime Sneider at 01:40 @ [Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

171 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:31:06pm

re: #162 nacazo

We won't, and even if we did, Russia wouldn't care.

172 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:31:07pm

re: #166 willowone

i'm starting to think of putin as ivan the terrible in my dreams


Is that good or bad?

173 CommonCents  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:31:37pm
I want to ask Ambassador Churkin, is your government’s objective regime change in Georgia, the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Georgia.

That explains Putin's comparison of Saakashvili to Saddam Hussein. A good poker player would have seen this one coming if they looked carefully at Putin's earlier comments.

174 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:31:42pm

re: #156 MikeySDCA


Has Russia ever told the truth? "really"

175 MandyManners  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:31:54pm

re: #149 opnion

No see, Georgian troops went into a region of Georgia, so they are agressing against themslves. Is that right?

Pretzel logic!

bbl

176 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:32:00pm

re: #166 willowone

Not really. Or, at least, not yet.

177 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:32:38pm

re: #152 kevinmumaw


Well I tried, but no go.... LOL

178 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:32:38pm

re: #174 Dustoff-507

Who does? "really"

179 zombie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:32:39pm

re: #96 reloadingisnotahobby

WTF is going on over there!

That's what I've trying to disentangle. It's hard to get a grip on it. I also like to go WAY back to get an understanding of the history and origins of the set-up.

Here's my two-minute assessment:

There are three groups involved: Russians, Ossetians, and Georgians.

Russians live to the north. Ever since the Middle Ages, they've had the desire to expand southward.

Georgians live in a small nation in the Caucasus Mountains. They were among the first ethnicities in the region to be Christianized, over a millennium ago. They've somehow managed to maintain a separate nation-identity-culture through countless centuries of warfare and invasions.

The Ossetians are the modern descendants of a Dark Ages nomadic tribe called the Alans (who were linguistically related to Iranians, but who ethnically were among the prototypes for the classification of the "Caucasian" race, so named because of where they settled). The Alans eventually settled down on both sides of the Caucasus Mountains, wedged in between the Russians and the Georgians. Because the crest of the mountain range went right down the middle of their territory, their land -- which originally was called "Alania" (land of the Alans) but later was changed to "Ossetia" -- was divided into North Ossetia, on the north side of the Caucasus, and South Ossetia, on the south side of the Caucasus.

The Russians came to dominate the North Ossetians, and after the breakup of the USSR, North Ossetia remained part of Russia. The Georgians, being on the south side of the Caucacus themselves, dominated the South Ossetians, and South Ossetia became part of the nation of Georgia.

Now, in the '90s, the South Ossetians developed a separatist movement, and have tried to break away from Georgia. What I'm not clear on is whether they wanted to start their own independent nation of Ossetia, or rather join up with the North Ossetians and become subsumed into Russia as a "republic" within Russia itself.

That's a very sketchy historical background. As for what has happened in the last four days -- that I haven't figured out yet.

180 Glackinspeil  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:32:39pm

Someone predicted this..... who was it?

181 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:32:42pm

re: #168 Dustoff-507

I did; sorry.

I'm spending way too much time on this, and I've gotten my syntax mixed up.

182 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:32:47pm

re: #161 Dianna

Want to start laying bets on the time frame? I say Ukraine is a Russian province again by the end of next year.

What do you think? Sooner?

Everything is so unpredictable, but Ukraine will start until Russia gets Georgia solidly under control because Russia does not have the military to fight two fronts. And Ukraine will put up a much stronger fight than Georgia. My Lithuanian friend says he is already at work doing mission analysis for the fight with Russia.

183 nacazo  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:33:08pm

Everybody should send a letter to the white hose with the following suggestions plus any you can think of:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

184 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:33:26pm

re: #156 MikeySDCA

Assuming you believe reports from the Georgians, who are not necessarily telling the truth. Welcome to the Caucasus. Everybody lies.

So that leads us back to Russia sending troops over an internationally recognized border into a sovereign nation without even a hall pass from the UN or any other international body. Pretty strong indication of just who the aggressor was.

185 yochanan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:33:46pm

there is plenty of low hanging fruit for the RUSSIAN BEAR TO PICK

THE BALTICS AND UKRAINE TO START. both have 'sudaten russians' to give the BEAR an excuse.

186 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:34:07pm

re: #161 Dianna

Want to start laying bets on the time frame? I say Ukraine is a Russian province again by the end of next year.

What do you think? Sooner?

Sooner - and without any invasion.
Russia sits on their gas and oil pipelines, and has shut them down once already - last year, iirc.
And as 'The West' isn't doing anything - are you going to let your citizens freeze to death, for an 'ideal'?
As the German writer Bertold Brecht so classically said: 'First comes eating, morals come after.'

187 maddogg  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:34:27pm

I figure the only chance the Georgians have is to immediately organize an underground resistance with a guerrilla arm. Make occupation so painful for the Russians they will finally pull out. The people participating in the resistance might get lucky and push them out within a year or two, depending on the depth of their commitment to throwing them out. Or how much they are willing to endure to get them out. The Russkies have a history of staying around for decades unless persuaded to leave earlier. We could be instrumental in how effective the Georgian resistance is.

If not, game over.

188 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:34:38pm

Fox just announced that Bush will have a press conference at 5:00pm est concerning the Russian/Georgian war.

189 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:34:51pm

re: #176 Dianna
does seem like he's consolidating old russian states, colonizing, next into europe? i know, i know, i'm becoming paranoid and pessimistic.

190 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:02pm

re: #145 Nevergiveup

re: #153 alegrias

You laugh, but I still feel disappointed about missing the games in 1980. Sport is good.

191 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:10pm

re: #188 jorline

Fox just announced that Bush will have a press conference at 5:00pm est concerning the Russian/Georgian war.

Is he still in China?

192 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:11pm

re: #178 MikeySDCA


True, but come on Russia. That's quite a stretch

193 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:11pm

re: #122 Ben Hur

Nissan caves in to the Saudis

9/11 worked.

He who controls the spice controls the universe (and coke and hookers)

Hydraulic despotism.

194 Glackinspeil  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:27pm

re: #180 Glackinspeil

Someone predicted this..... who was it?

Ah..there it is

195 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:40pm
196 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:42pm

re: #159 yochanan

And be sure they take along Obama's Vice Presidential pick -- that's John Edwards. The two would be just so, so great...such classy world-class leaders...they'd fit in so wonderfully...

197 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:44pm

I have a California Kitchen pizza and a nap calling my name.

198 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:49pm

re: #182 kevinmumaw

Tell your friend to plan well!

199 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:35:54pm

Another shitstorm in the works, Muslim separatists steal a state in the Phillipines.

Luckily the headline is amusing at least;

Military to clear MILF-occupied areas in a week

200 xtraBilly  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:36:17pm

re: #167 Midwestprof

Totally agree. This is the time for Europe and NATO to step up.

201 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:36:21pm

re: #184 CyanSnowHawk


I think it's damn funny that Russia keeps saying it's troops were (peace keepers)

202 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:36:52pm

re: #199 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Another shitstorm in the works, Muslim separatists steal a state in the Phillipines.

Luckily the headline is amusing at least;

Military to clear MILF-occupied areas in a week

I wouldn't mind clearing that area myself

203 Abu Al-Poopypants  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:37:38pm

re: #183 nacazo

Everybody should send a letter to the white hose

Dear Ozzie Guillen:

I know you have your hands full with Contreras going down, but could you help out with Georgia? OKTHanksbye

204 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:37:42pm

re: #184 CyanSnowHawk

Love your "hall pass", but the internationally recognized status is a good deal less clear than you assume.

205 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:37:49pm

re: #186 yma o hyd

Ukraine's history as a Russian province has not been a happy one. The Ukrainians may make more of a fight of it than we anticipate.

Mind you, I'm not holding my breath.

206 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:38:22pm

re: #188 jorline

Fox just announced that Bush will have a press conference at 5:00pm est concerning the Russian/Georgian war.

A Democrat spokesperson will denounce the plan as unworkable at 5:05pm est.

Some Bush policy will be found to explain the war in between leg tingles at 5:10pm est.

Obama's position will be broadcast as the lead story ~ 6:00pm est.

He will change position and the media will pretend not to notice but cheer anyway, TBD.

/

207 Iron Fist  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:38:38pm

re: #187 maddogg

We know that worked so well for the Chechens.

208 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:38:47pm
209 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:38:51pm

re: #181 Dianna

Not a problem

210 Glackinspeil  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:39:24pm

re: #200 xtraBilly

Totally agree. This is the time for Europe and NATO to step up.

Don't think it will happen unless Puta cuts off the pipeline. Putin is holding good cards right now.

211 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:39:45pm

re: #189 willowone

does seem like he's consolidating old russian states, colonizing, next into europe? i know, i know, i'm becoming paranoid and pessimistic.

You're not; or I don't think you are because you agree with me.

I think Putin is set on reconstituting Imperial Russia. I don't know what his time-table is, but I've been watching it coming since he was first elected.

212 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:39:49pm

re: #206 OldLineTexan

A Democrat spokesperson will denounce the plan as unworkable at 5:05pm est.

Some Bush policy will be found to explain the war in between leg tingles at 5:10pm est.

Obama's position will be broadcast as the lead story ~ 6:00pm est.

He will change position and the media will pretend not to notice but cheer anyway, TBD.

/

Due to a scheduling problem, the Dems will give a point by point rebuttal of Bush's plan 30 minutes before he presents it.

213 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:40:12pm

re: #188 jorline

Fox just announced that Bush will have a press conference at 5:00pm est concerning the Russian/Georgian war.

Hopefully it will include something along the lines of 4th Infantry Division to Georgia.

214 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:40:19pm

re: #129 CyanSnowHawk

Maybe if you're willing to discount the Russian backed agitators, and possibly Russian agent provocateurs that goaded Georgia into a rash act, to allow Russia to claim "They started it."

This is an old tactic with schoolyard bullies (no doubt practiced by young comrade Putin when he was growing up), block the victim's path and stop short of landing the first blow in order to provoke a response from the victim for which the victim will be punished under the stupid "first blow" standard. )Had it done to me when I was growing up in liberal Minneapolis.)

215 joncelli  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:40:22pm

re: #167 Midwestprof

The only possible arena for pushback is naval -- a show of force in the Black Sea. This will do little but set the stage for an accident or incident.

216 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:40:42pm

re: #164 Dustoff-507

Many of us have served too. But I need not blow my horn, that's all.

For 55 years I have seen the liberal left, and the press, dictate the United States foreign policies, and we haven't won a 'war' (military dispute) since.
We should have Kicked Korea's ass, (Viet Nam would not have happened)
If it had, we should have told the demorats to kiss our ass, and bombed Hanoi..&won that little fiasco, and then Carter would not have been elected to start this Muslim mess!
That's all I'm sayin'..

217 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:41:07pm

The Russian population is apparently entirely supportive of Putin and his goals.

I've said it before. They could have used another 1000 years of standing in line for moldy onions.

218 jpkoch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:41:42pm
Want to start laying bets on the time frame? I say Ukraine is a Russian province again by the end of next year.

I don't think the Russians have the staying power to invade and annex the Ukraine. Yes, they have the keys to a lot of oil and natural gas, but the invasion of the Ukraine would almost assuredly cause the EU and the US to embargo Russian goods, including commodities. Russia also has many enemies on its borders -mainly those who claim the ROP. The Russian Army is a basket case, and while it can bomb civilian targets, it has shown it cannot defend against or let attack a determined enemy with any skill. Without oil revenue the Russian economy would collapse in a matter of months.

Russia has replaced Turkey as they sick man of Europe. It has the a fertility rate of 1.1 children/couple, and the life expectancy of its males is about 58 years. Russia is second only to Africa in the number of new AIDS cases. Pelosi Putin would be very foolish to cast his gaze upon the Ukraine.

219 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:41:46pm

re: #201 Dustoff-507

I think it's damn funny that Russia keeps saying it's troops were (peace keepers)

It's their peace and they can do what they want to.

/

220 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:41:56pm

re: #211 Dianna

You're not; or I don't think you are because you agree with me.

I think Putin is set on reconstituting Imperial Russia. I don't know what his time-table is, but I've been watching it coming since he was first elected.

Yes, Putin seems to be doing exactly that.

Which means the next ducks in line had better be organizing.

221 tradewind  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:41:57pm

This is one case where the moonbats' war cry is actually applicable: It's All About the Oil, Man......

222 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:41:58pm
223 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:41:58pm

re: #130 reloadingisnotahobby

Just seems to me ,if this OK there,we should be able to over throw Cuba and just take it!
Would take one division .
Hell !we could do it with out leaving HOME!
Putins a dick!
If there are human right violations...invading is
ah... overkill!

Putin really wouldn't lose anything if we took Cuba now. (Not the we shouldn't...)

224 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:42:01pm

re: #214 The Other Les

Funny isn't it. Yet some think Russia can do NO wrong. )-:

225 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:42:10pm

re: #191 Nevergiveup

Is he still in China?

No...I hear he will be back home for the news conference.

226 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:42:10pm

re: #205 Dianna

Ukraine's history as a Russian province has not been a happy one. The Ukrainians may make more of a fight of it than we anticipate.

Mind you, I'm not holding my breath.

Nor me.
The ones who I think will put up fierce resistance are the Baltic States - and Poland, if it comes to that.

At the moment I feel as if time has gone back to the uprising in Hungary in 1956 - where we all sat and listened to the freedom fighters' desperate cries for help from the West - and there was none coming.

It made an indelible impression on me - I was a school girl at that time. I cried my eyes out, not understanding ... and have a similar feeling today.

227 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:42:49pm

re: #216 Dizzy26


Well sir, were in 100% agrement!

228 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:42:55pm

re: #190 DeafDog

re: #153 alegrias

You laugh, but I still feel disappointed about missing the games in 1980. Sport is good.

* * *
Someone I know was SUPPOSED to compete for the USA in those 1980 games. Jimmy Carter did not get that athlete's vote.

229 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:43:02pm

re: #214 The Other Les

This is an old tactic with schoolyard bullies (no doubt practiced by young comrade Putin when he was growing up), block the victim's path and stop short of landing the first blow in order to provoke a response from the victim for which the victim will be punished under the stupid "first blow" standard. )Had it done to me when I was growing up in liberal Minneapolis.)

Yup, been there. Only real solution is too make yourself to dangerous a target to be messed with.

Unfortunately, not as many people feel that way about the US today.

230 maddogg  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:43:11pm

re: #207 Iron Fist

We know that worked so well for the Chechens.

I worked for the Afghans. And it is their best chance for Independence. The Russkies are quite immune to sobbing admonitions from weak Western governments. Armed resistance will work, and I expect it will be their only recourse.

231 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:43:32pm

re: #213 kevinmumaw

Hopefully it will include something along the lines of 4th Infantry Division to Georgia.

That would be fantastic.

232 tradewind  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:43:32pm

re: #217 Maine's Michael

The years of vodka-swilling has mutated their DNA, and not for the better.

233 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:43:46pm

re: #139 Nevergiveup

If you gotta go, that's the way to go!

I don't have a cowboy hat.

234 Midwestprof  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:43:59pm

re: #211 Dianna

You're not; or I don't think you are because you agree with me.

I think Putin is set on reconstituting Imperial Russia. I don't know what his time-table is, but I've been watching it coming since he was first elected.

No, not old Imperial Russia, but rather something similar to the old Union of Soviet Socialist Republics; under a new, improved name, that is.

235 Stringart  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:44:03pm

I confess to not knowing a thing about this conflict, not why it happened nor who, if anyone, is the good guy. Now, thanks the FM, I know who the bad guy is.

236 johnnyreb  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:44:11pm

re: #207 Iron Fist

We know that worked so well for the Chechens.

We really screwed those guys over after WWII didn't we?

237 saberry0530  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:44:14pm

re: #206 OldLineTexan

A Democrat spokesperson will denounce the plan as unworkable at 5:05pm est.

Some Bush policy will be found to explain the war in between leg tingles at 5:10pm est.

Obama's position will be broadcast as the lead story ~ 6:00pm est.

He will change position and the media will pretend not to notice but cheer anyway, TBD.

/

Obama modifies his position at 10:00PM.

/Had to be said

238 Joan Not of Arc  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:44:21pm

re: #62 Killian Bundy

As Russia has everyone either fooled or in their pocket, I would suggest arming and supporting NATO-backed eastern European nations whose hatred for Russia burns with the passion of a thousand suns. I would also suggest shutting off or diverting the pipeline so that Russia cannot benefit from it (where are those "No blood for oil" fanatics when you need them?).
That's just me.

239 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:44:29pm

re: #217 Maine's Michael

The Russian population is apparently entirely supportive of Putin and his goals.

I've said it before. They could have used another 1000 years of standing in line for moldy onions.

If Putin has his way, thats exactly what they'll be getting.
They still revere Stalin, after all ...

240 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:44:57pm

re: #217 Maine's Michael

I've said it before. They could have used another 1000 years of standing in line for moldy onions.

Well, it looks like they're going to get it.

241 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:44:58pm

re: #182 kevinmumaw

The EU needs to admit Ukraine to NATO right NOW.

242 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:45:33pm

re: #142 MikeySDCA

Yes, in a sense. Georgia sent troops into South Ossetia, the sovereignty to which is, to but it mildly, debatable, and most of whose inhabitants have Russian passports.

You know. if they want to be Soviet Russian citizens they should, you know, like move to The Soviet Union Russia.

243 anotherindyfilmguy  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:45:34pm

re: #129 CyanSnowHawk

Maybe if you're willing to discount the Russian backed agitators, and possibly Russian agent provocateurs that goaded Georgia into a rash act, to allow Russia to claim "They started it."

Right out of the history books with Germany's "proof" that the Polish Army attacked Germany first and they were only "responding to Polish aggression" in 1939...

244 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:45:34pm

re: #206 OldLineTexan

A Democrat spokesperson will denounce the plan as unworkable at 5:05pm est.

Some Bush policy will be found to explain the war in between leg tingles at 5:10pm est.

Obama's position will be broadcast as the lead story ~ 6:00pm est.

He will change position and the media will pretend not to notice but cheer anyway, TBD.

/

LMAO...sad but true. Remember the only ones in Washington right now are the Republicans. Perhaps they'll catch Barry in between waves.

245 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:45:48pm

re: #205 Dianna on the other hand because ukarians hisory has been bleak deealing with thee empire, they might be willing to fight hard . maybe this type of commentary is going on at the top of states, , we can hope.

246 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:45:57pm

re: #214 The Other Les

This is an old tactic with schoolyard bullies (no doubt practiced by young comrade Putin when he was growing up), block the victim's path and stop short of landing the first blow in order to provoke a response from the victim for which the victim will be punished under the stupid "first blow" standard. )Had it done to me when I was growing up in liberal Minneapolis.)

Of course, the trick there is to land a good first shot. The bully will stop picking on you after a couple black eyes.

247 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:46:02pm

re: #233 The Other Les

I don't have a cowboy hat.

Shit that's easy, I don't have a thermo-nuclear bomb!

248 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:46:14pm

re: #227 Dustoff-507

Well sir, were in 100% agrement!

Cool! appreciate one more spine in the fray

249 chukardog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:46:17pm

Ummm, where is all the liberal outrage? where are all the anti war demonstrations? where is media benjamin? where is mama moonbat?...Silence..........

250 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:46:50pm

kevinmumaw,

Hopefully it will include something along the lines of 4th Infantry Division to Georgia.

This isn't a Clancy novel where Jack Ryan and a bunch of whiz bang super weapons ride to the rescue.

Everyone giddy about the prospect of a military confrontation with Russia should watch The Day After.

251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:46:58pm

Many people do not seem to understand that Oil is a very good reason for War. Right behind water.

252 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:47:23pm

re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Many people do not seem to understand that Oil is a very good reason for War. Right behind water.

And women!

253 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:47:25pm

re: #142 MikeySDCA

Yes, in a sense. Georgia sent troops into South Ossetia, the sovereignty to which is, to but it mildly, debatable, and most of whose inhabitants have Russian passports.

Most of the inhabitants of southern California probably have Mexican passports........should we cede southern California to Mexico?

Russion has been stirring sh*t in Ossetia for years.....that doesn't make it theirs.

254 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:47:26pm
255 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:47:49pm

Just went to the NATO website. The Baltic Republics, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia are all members. Will NATO sit on its collective butt if Pooty makes a move, after consuming the Ukraine, on any of these countries?

256 Serge GoFan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:48:04pm

MAD have perfectly worked 50 years for Russian communist fanatics, for apparatchiks etc. Even better it can work for alliance of KGB (criminals?) and common criminals, aka Russian government. They have something to lose - their billions.

257 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:48:05pm

re: #218 jpkoch

That's all very well to say, but please observe this weekend's actions in Georgia.

Last week, I would have (cautiously) agree with you, while mentioning many caveats. Now? it seems to me that your analysis - and mine - are reduced to wishful thinking.

258 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:48:18pm

re: #54 bgb!

Maybe Obama should sit them down explain to them the he is the one they have been waiting for.

They already know he's the pussy they've been waiting for.

259 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:48:21pm

re: #236 johnnyreb

We really screwed those guys over after WWII didn't we?

I hate to say it, but...

Who didn't "we" screw over after WW2?

Lord knows "we" helped the Fwench re-invade Viet Nam.

"We" were in no position (short of n*k*s) to do anything about the Iron Curtain.

"We" were too exhausted and just not informed enough to "fix" the Middle East (which was, IMO, way broken way before Israel).

Africa remained screwed over, too.

There is only so much American blood and treasure, and the foresight of the best person is limited and flawed.

You do the best you can with what you have and you deal with the results.

260 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:48:24pm

re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Many people do not seem to understand that Oil is a very good reason for War. Right behind water.

It'll do........nicely in fact

261 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:48:29pm

re: #249 chukardog


Someone should give her a call. (-:

262 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:48:37pm

re: #218 jpkoch

You forget that Russia, ahem, the Soviet Union never invaded a country!
They were always called in to help some suppressed group or other, be it a deposed gang of communists or 'freedom fighters like in South Ossetia.
They even entered Afghanistan just to support the 'rightful' communist government, after they had called for Soviet help.
Thats how they oeprate.
They are a peaceful, helpful nation - and all that other stuff, like in Chechnya, that are internal affairs, nothing to do with the outside world ...

263 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:48:53pm

re: #218 jpkoch

If my experience at 'Risk' is any indication, Ukraine is the last place that you want to try to conquer.

264 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:49:04pm

re: #246 CyanSnowHawk

Of course, the trick there is to land a good first shot. The bully will stop picking on you after a couple black eyes.

Soft tissue areas. Eyes, throat, nose, groin. Crush one and they stop.

265 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:49:07pm

re: #252 Nevergiveup

And women!

Are you crazy!? Most women can kick my ass!

266 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:49:13pm

re: #234 Midwestprof

The Russian Empire actually controlled Finland. The Soviets never managed to actually conquer Finland.

Minor point, but I'm sure it galled the commissars.

267 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:49:29pm

re: #252 Nevergiveup

And women!

Somehow "No Blood for Women"....just doesn't sound right

268 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:49:38pm

re: #239 yma o hyd

There was an article in the National Post recently about how Russian textbooks are being re-written so as to make Stalin into a "hero."

269 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:49:45pm

I must add;

The moonbats are screaming on their blogs and Bbs's that we have no right to tell Russia not to remove the Georgian President. These are sites I frequently post on .. but this time, they won't even remotely listen to what I or anyone else has to say on the subject.. it's like they have their hands over their ears and are yelling "Lalalalalalala!"

270 Sully33  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:50:09pm

I'm getting the feeling that Vlad is getting nostalgic for the good old days of the Soviet Union.

This was planned well in advance.

271 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:50:17pm

re: #162 nacazo

They blockade Georgia. We blockade Cuba.

Cuba is basket case and liability to them. Knocking off that regime would relieve them of a burden. (Of course it would relieve the Cuban People of a burden but first things first.)

272 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:50:43pm

re: #201 Dustoff-507

I think it's damn funny that Russia keeps saying it's troops were (peace keepers)

Their choice of words may be deliberate.
See #194.

re: #194 Glackinspeil

r-e-v-e-n-g-e

273 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:50:46pm

re: #228 alegrias

* * *
Someone I know was SUPPOSED to compete for the USA in those 1980 games. Jimmy Carter did not get that athlete's vote.

My wife was competing for a spot on the equestrian team, and had a good shot to make it there.

274 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:50:50pm

re: #241 wolfie

The EU needs to admit Ukraine to NATO right NOW.

No, admit Ukraine to NATO. The EU is not an organization we should want expanded.

275 Uncle Pavian  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:50:52pm

Yah, that'll show 'em.

276 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:51:05pm

re: #267 eschew_obfuscation

Somehow "No Blood for Women"....just doesn't sound right

Remember "Helena of Troy"?

277 CommonCents  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:51:07pm

re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Many people do not seem to understand that Oil is a very good reason for War. Right behind water.

Somewhere in the top 5 is foriegn troops on your soil and bombing your infrastructure and citizens. I'm not sure which is higher, all are valid.

278 johnnyreb  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:51:27pm

re: #259 OldLineTexan


I agree with most of your post, we didn't do much for anyone after the war except Japan and Germany.

However, I suggest it was the British who screwed over the Middle East. After all, they were pretty much the only ones who friggin started drawing lines in the sand and calling them countries with no rhyme or reason.

That has to be the most stupid dividing up of an old and dying empire in the history of the world.

279 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:51:30pm

re: #270 Sully33

I'm getting the feeling that Vlad is getting nostalgic for the good old days of the Soviet Union.

This was planned well in advance.

He never left those days.

280 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:51:58pm

re: #278 johnnyreb

I agree with most of your post, we didn't do much for anyone after the war except Japan and Germany.

However, I suggest it was the British who screwed over the Middle East. After all, they were pretty much the only ones who friggin started drawing lines in the sand and calling them countries with no rhyme or reason.

That has to be the most stupid dividing up of an old and dying empire in the history of the world.

EXACTLY.

We have a winner!

281 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:51:58pm

re: #255 pingjockey

Just went to the NATO website. The Baltic Republics, Poland, Slovakia, Slovenia are all members. Will NATO sit on its collective butt if Pooty makes a move, after consuming the Ukraine, on any of these countries?

If a NATO country were attacked, I want to believe that there would be a swift response. Certainly air support would be deployed immediately and ground forces as soon as possible.

Georgia was not (yet) a NATO country.

The facts are still cloudy about how this thing got started, but it seems to my the Ivan instigated the attack to take care of business before Georgia was in NATO.

282 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:52:12pm

re: #236 johnnyreb

We really screwed those guys over after WWII didn't we?

Us? Not really.

If you're curious, look up Robert Conquest's Stalin: Breaker of Nations.

283 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:52:16pm

re: #166 willowone

i'm starting to think of putin as ivan the terrible in my dreams

I once had a dream that I was standing in a field under a full moon while watching Minuteman III ICBM's being launched from their silos.

284 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:52:27pm

re: #255 pingjockey


You know the answer to that already... (-:

285 zombie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:52:30pm

re: #213 kevinmumaw

Hopefully it will include something along the lines of 4th Infantry Division to Georgia.

I don't think there will be ANY taste for sending US troops to Georgia to fight the Russians. That just ain't gonna happen.

Saddam Hussein goaded us for years and years, and the American people already hated him, and we had a military history in Iraq. But even so, it took some convincing to get the 2003 Iraq War approved.

But Georgia? Hell, most Americans have barely heard of it, and we have no military history there at all. What American mother is going to want to send her son to defend a nation she's never heard of over an issue that is completely murky?

In 2003, stopping the global jihad was an understandable goal. But what overarching goal can be communicated to the American people to justify American troops defending South Ossetia?

286 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:53:08pm

re: #283 The Other Les

I once had a dream that I was standing in a field under a full moon while watching Minuteman III ICBM's being launched from their silos.

Did you bend over and kiss your ass good bye?

287 markie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:53:13pm

Putin is trying out his troops on Georgia as a warm up IMO. We won't like it when the other shoe drops, and neither will the break away republics.

288 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:53:49pm

re: #285 zombie

I don't think there will be ANY taste for sending US troops to Georgia to fight the Russians. That just ain't gonna happen.

Saddam Hussein goaded us for years and years, and the American people already hated him, and we had a military history in Iraq. But even so, it took some convincing to get the 2003 Iraq War approved.

But Georgia? Hell, most Americans have barely heard of it, and we have no military history there at all. What American mother is going to want to send her son to defend a nation she's never heard of over an issue that is completely murky?

In 2003, stopping the global jihad was an understandable goal. But what overarching goal can be communicated to the American people to justify American troops defending South Ossetia?

Exactly.

Not saying it's right, but if you think Iraq was an unpopular war...

289 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:54:31pm

re: #285 zombie

I don't think there will be ANY taste for sending US troops to Georgia to fight the Russians. That just ain't gonna happen.

Saddam Hussein goaded us for years and years, and the American people already hated him, and we had a military history in Iraq. But even so, it took some convincing to get the 2003 Iraq War approved.

But Georgia? Hell, most Americans have barely heard of it, and we have no military history there at all. What American mother is going to want to send her son to defend a nation she's never heard of over an issue that is completely murky?

In 2003, stopping the global jihad was an understandable goal. But what overarching goal can be communicated to the American people to justify American troops defending South Ossetia?

Agreed. I think the most we will commit to is material and refugee support. Our military wont go in as it stands currently

290 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:54:39pm

re: #174 Dustoff-507

Has Russia ever told the truth? "really"

When a tyrant or a tyrannophile makes a factual statement it is for the purpose of buttressing a falsehood.

291 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:54:40pm

re: #232 tradewind

The years of vodka-swilling has mutated their DNA, and not for the better.

Life expectancy falling, berlow 60 for men, I belive.

Birth rate well under replacment level.

They (russians) won't be a problem for our children.

Lots of fancy villas and vintage mercedes and SUV's for them to snap up in 20 or 30 years' time.

292 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:55:20pm

re: #285 zombie

Real good point.

Still worth a try isn't it?

293 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:55:33pm
294 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:55:36pm

re: #290 The Other Les

When a tyrant or a tyrannophile makes a factual statement it is for the purpose of buttressing a falsehood.

I'm gonna have to use that.

295 jpkoch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:55:37pm
A Democrat spokesperson will denounce the plan as unworkable at 5:05pm est.

Some Bush policy will be found to explain the war in between leg tingles at 5:10pm est.

Obama's position will be broadcast as the lead story ~ 6:00pm est.

He will change position and the media will pretend not to notice but cheer anyway, TBD.

Obama already got his you know what stepped on last week-end when he came out sounding like Jimmy Carter. Within hours, he gave another interview, this time with Al-Reuters. His second position morphed into McCain's.

McCain has never been a fan of Russia or Putin (can you blame him? 7 years surrounded by guards at the Hanoi Hilton who were trained and armed by Russians). McCain's answer to Bush's speech is probably the mor important one. Which means, the MSM will ignore him completely.

296 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:55:50pm

Georgia claims Russians have cut country in half

Just heard Russian troops are moving to take Georgia's capital, Tbilisi, but can't provide any confirmation.

297 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:56:01pm

re: #284 Dustoff-507
Sucks to know the outcome ahead of time. Then again, who knows. I'd like to think we'd stand up for NATO nations at least. This just sucks, Georgia sends troops to help us and we can't ven help them logistically? Plus, the LOCs in Georgia are damn vulnerable to smart weapons. Take out the railines/roads leading in and the Russians have no logistical support.

298 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:56:01pm

re: #293 buzzsawmonkey

I know someone whose co-worker thought, when she heard that "the Russians have invaded Georgia," that the Russians were marching on Atlanta.

Wonder who that person is voting for?

299 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:56:33pm

re: #285 zombie

DEFENDING DEMOCRACY

Use a liberal Disraeli/Wilsonian 14 points hammer on their psuedo-liberal heads.

The Cold War is over.

We won.

Advance DEMOCRACY.

300 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:56:34pm

re: #239 yma o hyd

No conception of, or, apparently need for, democracy in Russia.

A strong Czar, the knout, and an empire in whihc they may toil is all that's needed for this nation of serfs (slaves).

301 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:56:39pm

re: #296 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Georgia claims Russians have cut country in half

Just heard Russian troops are moving to take Georgia's capital, Tbilisi, but can't provide any confirmation.

Were did you hear that?

302 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:56:51pm

re: #291 Maine's Michael

Life expectancy falling, berlow 60 for men, I belive.

Birth rate well under replacment level.

They (russians) won't be a problem for our children.

Lots of fancy villas and vintage mercedes and SUV's for them to snap up in 20 or 30 years' time.

Besides, we are shipping half of their attractive, fertile women over here.

303 Silhouette  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:56:55pm

re: #206 OldLineTexan

A Democrat spokesperson will denounce the plan as unworkable at 5:05pm est.

They don't know what he's going to say, but they know that "they're agin it!"

304 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:57:03pm

re: #268 J.S.

Yep.
There are however some other books - one I can highly recommend is by Simon Sebag-Montefiori, 'Young Stalin'. Pretty interesting ...

(I do like that cat in your av!)

305 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:57:03pm

re: #75 trailortrash

[Link: www.abovetopsecret.com...]

I use that web site to look up stuff about UFOs for my online astronomy class, and then demolish what they say.
Some of the stuff on the site is pretty loony. I don't remember if I encountered any troofers there, but they would fit in, as would people who think the 9/11 attacks were done by aliens.

Take whatever you read at that site with a large pillar of salt.

As for a 2001 game reflecting what happened, well, it was predictable, at least as a possibility even 7 years ago.

306 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:57:26pm

re: #278 johnnyreb

I agree with most of your post, we didn't do much for anyone after the war except Japan and Germany.

However, I suggest it was the British who screwed over the Middle East. After all, they were pretty much the only ones who friggin started drawing lines in the sand and calling them countries with no rhyme or reason.

That has to be the most stupid dividing up of an old and dying empire in the history of the world.

Absolutely correct, but there is the "we" problem again...in 1945, Britain was incapable of doing much of anything (with damned good reason, IMO), and the US became the sole possessor of "we"...and did not have the patience, time, money, troops, foresight, whatever...to fix the mess.

307 blutonazi98  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:57:30pm

re: #283 The Other Les

I once had a dream that I was standing in a field under a full moon while watching Minuteman III ICBM's being launched from their silos.

i once had a dream that Russian women were standing over me..... oh never mind

308 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:57:36pm

re: #301 Nevergiveup

Were did you hear that?

Drudge.

309 samsgran1948  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:58:11pm
This is completely unacceptable and crosses a line. I want to ask Ambassador Churkin, is your government’s objective regime change in Georgia, the overthrow of the democratically elected government of Georgia. Mr. President, Russia must affirm their aim is not to change the democratically elected government of Georgia and it accepts the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Georgia .

Mr. President, Russia is threatening the territorial integrity of Georgia and this Council must act decisively to reaffirm the territorial integrity and sovereignty of Georgia.

And the Council will retort that this is exactly what the US and Bush did to Iraq, and that it's hypocritical of the US to protest Russia's invasion of Georgia. Pf-f-f-ft!

The US really, really needs to get out of the UN. The UN is one of the most useless organizations on the face of the earth. No matter what happens, you can always depend on the UN hindering rather than helping the situation. Opnion was 100% correct when he wrote:

I really can't see the UN doing much of anything.
Russia of curse as a permanent Security Council member will veto anything.
The main body? Georgia is viewed as a U.S ally. Most of those nations are enjoying this.
310 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:58:40pm

re: #302 astronmr20

Besides, we are shipping half of their attractive, fertile women over here.

Sharapova is not looking as hot, lately.

311 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:58:55pm

re: #285 zombie

But Georgia? Hell, most Americans have barely heard of it, and we have no military history there at all. What American mother is going to want to send her son to defend a nation she's never heard of over an issue that is completely murky?

"A far away land, of which we know little. "

Guess who and when.

312 FrogMarch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:59:02pm

re: #251 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Many people do not seem to understand that Oil is a very good reason for War. Right behind water.

Indeed. The left whined eternally about Iraq being a "war for oil". What bull. We have not seen a real war for oil - but the big one is coming.

313 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:59:14pm

re: #185 yochanan

there is plenty of low hanging fruit for the RUSSIAN BEAR TO PICK

THE BALTICS AND UKRAINE TO START. both have 'sudaten russians' to give the BEAR an excuse.

The Left will not listen to the warning because that would jam out their narcissistic fantasies of moral virtue.

314 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:59:16pm

re: #289 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Agreed. I think the most we will commit to is material and refugee support. Our military wont go in as it stands currently

There are other things that can be done diplomatically and economically. A couple of ideas that I've read here are the typical bolierplate 'sanctions' or, perhaps encouraging Iraq to block russian companies from any rebuilding contracts (since Georgia aided in there defense during the insurrection).

315 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:59:25pm

re: #310 Maine's Michael

Sharapova is not looking as hot, lately.

You don't have to look far to find far more attractive eastern european women than her in my opinion.

316 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:59:43pm

re: #306 OldLineTexan

Absolutely correct, but there is the "we" problem again...in 1945, Britain was incapable of doing much of anything (with damned good reason, IMO), and the US became the sole possessor of "we"...and did not have the patience, time, money, troops, foresight, whatever...to fix the mess.

Give the British a break. They didn't do so bad. They civilized almost 1/2 the world. So they screwed up some borders. You try doing that job. G-D save the Queen!

317 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 12:59:44pm

re: #291 Maine's Michael

Life expectancy falling, berlow 60 for men, I belive.

Birth rate well under replacment level.

They (russians) won't be a problem for our children.

Lots of fancy villas and vintage mercedes and SUV's for them to snap up in 20 or 30 years' time.

Mark Steyn predicted in America Alone that Vladivostok will belong to China within 50 years.

I want to see The Hermitage before its treasures wind up on Ebay.

318 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:00:24pm

re: #310 Maine's Michael

Sharapova is not looking as hot, lately.

Yeah, right, like you'd kick her outta bed?

319 aboo-Hoo-Hoo  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:00:35pm

re: #301 Nevergiveup

On the phone.

320 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:00:36pm
321 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:00:56pm

re: #297 pingjockey


I'm with you buddy... send them all the smart stuff they need to kick Putins butt.

322 Iron Fist  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:01:04pm

re: #236 johnnyreb

That was pretty much FDR/Truman's policy after WWII. The foundations of the Cold War were laid in WWII policy.

323 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:01:58pm

re: #285 zombie

I agree about the U.S. not wanting to get involved here..(might add though that there are 130 U.S. troops/contractors in Georgia right now -- the Americans were there assisting the Georgians in military training for Iraq -- the U.S. troops are at some undisclosed location). Putin has also claimed that the Americans are flying in Georgian troops from Iraq and landing them on the front-lines...(U.S. denies the claim and says Americans are helping in the return of Georgian troops from iraq, but aren't putting them on any "front lines.")

324 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:01:59pm

re: #320 buzzsawmonkey

More likely trashed by Taliban II.

That'll be The Louvre.

325 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:02:07pm

Maines Michael,

Life expectancy falling, berlow 60 for men, I belive.

Birth rate well under replacment level.

They (russians) won't be a problem for our children.

As Mark Steyn said "Most of the big international problems operate within certain geographic constraints: Africa has Aids, the Middle East has Islamists, North Korea has nukes. But Russia’s got the lot: an African-level Aids crisis and an Islamist separatist movement sitting on top of the biggest pile of nukes on the planet".

326 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:02:08pm

re: #321 Dustoff-507
Did you notice all the armor was second line stuff?

327 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:02:24pm

re: #316 Nevergiveup

Give the British a break. They didn't do so bad. They civilized almost 1/2 the world. So they screwed up some borders. You try doing that job. G-D save the Queen!

True, but they DID F-up teh middle east pretty bad.

328 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:02:40pm

re: #317 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

Hence why Putin is making his move now. I have a suspicion that he wants the old days back again to instill pride in Russia. Funny, someone did that in 1930s Germany, and 1920s Italy as well.

329 kansas  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:02:50pm

I know this is shallow, but when Democracy gives us Barack Obama as probable President, I can have mixed feelings about it.

330 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:02:56pm

re: #318 Nevergiveup

Yeah, right, like you'd kick her outta bed?

Yup, more room on the floor anyways, though rug burns can be a bitch.

331 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:06pm

re: #315 astronmr20

You don't have to look far to find far more attractive eastern european women than her in my opinion.

You mean pron stars?

332 markie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:07pm

Get your shovels out, The Russkies will be laying it on real thick...

333 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:11pm

re: #323 J.S.

I
agree about the U.S. not wanting to get involved here..(might add
though that there are 130 U.S. troops/contractors in Georgia right now
-- the Americans were there assisting the Georgians in military
training for Iraq -- the U.S. troops are at some undisclosed location).
Putin has also claimed that the Americans are flying in Georgian troops
from Iraq and landing them on the front-lines...(U.S. denies the claim
and says Americans are helping in the return of Georgian troops from
iraq, but aren't putting them on any "front lines.")

Given the nature of the war & the small size of Georgia, "front lines" is kind of a subjective term.

334 tradewind  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:17pm

re: #249 chukardog

Pat Buchanan is the leading ' leave 'em alone' voice at the moment.
Tells you a lot.

335 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:17pm

re: #316 Nevergiveup

Give the British a break. They didn't do so bad. They civilized almost 1/2 the world. So they screwed up some borders. You try doing that job. G-D save the Queen!

The Brits screwed up the Middle East, we botched Viet Nam.

Sometimes the truth is the Truth and there is no way around it.

I am an admirer of our British cousins, but as an American I do not respect the authority of any King or Queen, figurehead or no.

336 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:27pm

O M G, I just heard a liberal say "Russia Is Back!" admiringly.

And, "the Chinese Olympics opening ceremony said "Don't Mess With Us".

Another liberal lawyer totally in awe of totalitarians.

337 Dad O' Blondes  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:31pm

re: #241 wolfie

The EU needs to admit Ukraine to NATO right NOW.

Well, if you want a bunch a majorly pissed off Russians, that's the way to do it.

Before Vlad, and when he was sober enough to pay attention to what was going on, Yeltsin watched as Eastern Europe drifted towards NATO. Hell, Poland has been a NATO member for over a decade now.

The squandering of influence in Eastern Europe has been a huge political embarrassment to the Kremlin, and the Russians have lost all kinds of power and influence in this important and developing region -- a place they used to control.

The Russians are terrified of the eastern march of NATO, so much so they reached out and poisoned the Ukraine's President Viktor Yushchenko in 2004.

This mess in Georgia/Ossetia is Moscow's way of establishing a line in the sand -- it's a crude response to NATO's extreme success over the past 15 years in extending Western influence right to the very property line of the former Soviet Union. And the current forcible put-down is taking place WITHIN the borders of the former Soviet Union.

Russians are famous for the disproportionate response.

In this case, I think it's disproportionate because they are scared of NATO's growing power and influence.

.

338 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:38pm

re: #278 johnnyreb

The French were as much to blame as the Brits, but you're right. Dumb abstract nations w/o regard to language, culture, etc.

339 blutonazi98  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:44pm

re: #315 astronmr20

well anna has put her weight and is looking very hot again. she might be worth fighting for
eye candy

340 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:47pm

re: #312 FrogMarch

Indeed. The left whined eternally about Iraq being a "war for oil". What bull. We have not seen a real war for oil - but the big one is coming.

Bah! We have a trillion barrels of worth of shale, but we ain't allowed to refine it. The real 'war for oil' is with the environmentalists.

341 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:03:48pm

re: #323 J.S.


Maybe they were Para-troops.... (-:

One can only dream

342 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:04:34pm

Gotta love it.

Russians use Olympics.

Palis use Russians using the Olympics. They shot one off at Sderote.

Otherwise:

Video: What was Saakashvili thinking?

343 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:04:38pm

re: #339 blutonazi98

well anna has put her weight and is looking very hot again. she might be worth fighting for
eye candy

Useless tennis player, mediocre looks.

344 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:04:42pm

re: #331 Maine's Michael

You mean pron stars?

THERE ARE EASTERN EUROPEAN PRON STARS!?

/

345 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:04:44pm

re: #326 pingjockey


Which side?

346 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:05:16pm

re: #318 Nevergiveup

Yeah, right, like you'd kick her outta bed?

I did. Last week. After she got turfed from the Canadian Open.

347 DeafDog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:05:16pm

re: #316 Nevergiveup

Give the British a break. They didn't do so bad. They civilized almost 1/2 the world. So they screwed up some borders. You try doing that job. G-D save the Queen!

I agree. the colonies that the Brits left behind seem to do much better than the colonies that the Spanards or French left.

348 tradewind  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:05:25pm

re: #337 Dad O' Blondes

Well, if you want a bunch a majorly pissed off Russians...


Is there any other flavor?

349 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:05:36pm

re: #335 OldLineTexan

The Brits screwed up the Middle East, we botched Viet Nam.

Sometimes the truth is the Truth and there is no way around it.

The French aren't exactly blameless in either pooch-screw, as far as I'm concerned.

350 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:05:42pm

re: #336 alegrias

O M G, I just heard a liberal say "Russia Is Back!" admiringly.

And, "the Chinese Olympics opening ceremony said "Don't Mess With Us".

Another liberal lawyer totally in awe of totalitarians.

Penis envy.

351 Nevergiveup  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:05:54pm

re: #347 DeafDog

I agree. the colonies that the Brits left behind seem to do much better than the colonies that the Spanards or French left.

We seem to be doing ok!

352 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:06:06pm

re: #344 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

THERE ARE EASTERN EUROPEAN PRON STARS!?

/

Tons.

353 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:06:25pm

re: #282 Dianna
he also did a nice job on ,Harvest of Sorrows

354 Morganfrost  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:06:45pm

The UN must take immediate action. It must first issue a letter expressing its deep concern about the reported situation which may or may not be occurring in the arguably sovereign nation of Georgia, and which may or may not have arisen in connection with the real or imagined grievances of one party or the other vis-a-vis the Russia/Georgia axis.

It must then issue a firm resolution unequivocally condeming Israel for this appalling provocation.

355 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:06:59pm

re: #344 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

THERE ARE EASTERN EUROPEAN PRON STARS!?

/

Turn up the sound every now and again, that ain't English they're speaking.

356 HoosierHoops  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:07:04pm

You know what is sad?
This issue should have been right in Condi's wheelhouse..I mean she is the Russian expert..
I've always gave her benefits of the doubt over her past inactions or goof ups, lack of imagination or sometimes just politically correct babble..
A few days ago she could have raised her hand and said..i got this...
In fact she should have been up Putins ass the last couple years..
hey..shes the friggin expert..get out DC once a month Condi and show me whats you got..do you have game?
She has failed at every single thing in diplomacy..
Fire Condi...
/sorry about the rant..you know i don't get mad..I'm just say'n jeez..
Now there will be a war maybe...

357 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:07:12pm

re: #286 Nevergiveup

Did you bend over and kiss your ass good bye?

No.

358 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:07:12pm

re: #350 Maine's Michael


TOTALLY~!

359 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:07:18pm

re: #336 alegrias

s.o.b.s don't they know somewhere down the line he and his family would be eaten as an appetizer.

360 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:07:29pm

Bush to make statement on situation in 1 hour.

361 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:07:35pm

re: #333 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

Yes...front-lines are mobile, I guess. (also wonder if the Georgians still have functioning airports...)

362 blutonazi98  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:07:36pm

re: #343 astronmr20

Useless tennis player, mediocre looks.

thems fightin words there! your lucky i don't have 150 tanks

363 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:08:11pm

re: #345 Dustoff-507

Well, both actually. The russian stuff looked like B group AFVs and T-72s. Then again I'd bet the T-90s and newer AFVs are on the Ukrainian border now. I do know the Russians have over 150 pieces of armor in Georgia and that is what, regiment size? Maybe a small armored division. That force wasn't assembled in 3 days.

364 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:08:12pm

The problem isn't that Russia will go after the Ukraine or the Baltic States. The danger is that they will move to "protect the interests" of the ethnic Russian citizens of the Central Asian Republics, i.e., the 'stans. It also would not be improbable for them to reassert control over Azerbaijan.

Both actions serve to lock up control of even more of the world's oil supply.
This is a war over oil.

365 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:08:13pm

re: #294 astronmr20

I'm gonna have to use that.

Go ahead.

366 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:08:18pm

re: #352 astronmr20

Tons.

And that's just the BBW sites.

367 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:08:20pm

re: #362 blutonazi98

thems fightin words there! your lucky i don't have 150 tanks

Come with me to prague sometime; you'll change your mind.

368 markie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:08:23pm

re: #354 Morganfrost

It must then issue a firm resolution unequivocally condeming Israel for this appalling provocation.

Don't forget the Amish factions...

369 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:08:54pm

re: #352 astronmr20

Tons.

Well, I can only come up with about 50 off the top of my head.

re: #355 CyanSnowHawk

Turn up the sound every now and again, that ain't English they're speaking.

THEY CAN TALK!?

WOW! Who knew?

370 Midwestprof  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:08:58pm

My wife, who is from one of the old Soviet satellite countries, said to me that the Russians achieved partial or full take-over of a country by the displacement of its indigenous peoples after, of course, the military take-over. Her grandfather was a wealthy land owner in the old country when the Soviets showed up to rescue them from the evil Germans during WW2. Then, zipp....off her grandparents went to Siberia, never to be heard from again. Their holdings were given to new Russian immigrants. When the breakup of the Soviet empire finally came about, it was impossible to regain the old holdings. Papers were "lost" or destroyed. Many of the new settlers, of course, are quite loyal to Russia.

371 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:09:06pm

re: #357 The Other Les

Did you bend over and kiss your ass good bye?

No.
---------------------------------------------

As Les closes the door to his deep underground bunker. (-:

372 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:09:14pm

re: #351 Nevergiveup

We seem to be doing ok!

We're all of the above - Former French, Spanish & English colonies. And Dutch & Russian, too.

373 OldLineTexan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:09:22pm

re: #349 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

The French aren't exactly blameless in either pooch-screw, as far as I'm concerned.

We could have easily told deGaulle to f*** off and left the Vietnamese to their own devices. Post-WW2 France couldn't have bullied a troop of Brownies successfully.

However, we went so far as to provide them transportation, US uniforms, and US weapons and vehicles, which changed the American from the Liberator to the Oppressor.

Nevermind that the Fwench were doing the actual oppressing.

374 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:09:37pm

re: #359 willowone

s.o.b.s don't they know somewhere down the line he and his family would be eaten as an appetizer.

* * *
They'd welcome Russia/stalinists willingly--they're the ones they've been waiting for, Che & the gulag gang.

375 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:09:44pm

re: #316 Nevergiveup

Give the British a break. They didn't do so bad. They civilized almost 1/2 the world. So they screwed up some borders. You try doing that job. G-D save the Queen!

Youtube Video

376 astronmr20  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:09:54pm

re: #370 Midwestprof

My wife, who is from one of the old Soviet satellite countries, said to me that the Russians achieved partial or full take-over of a country by the displacement of its indigenous peoples after, of course, the military take-over. Her grandfather was a wealthy land owner in the old country when the Soviets showed up to rescue them from the evil Germans during WW2. Then, zipp....off her grandparents went to Siberia, never to be heard from again. Their holdings were given to new Russian immigrants. When the breakup of the Soviet empire finally came about, it was impossible to regain the old holdings. Papers were "lost" or destroyed. Many of the new settlers, of course, are quite loyal to Russia.

Same thing happened to my Estonian Great-grandparents.

377 blutonazi98  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:09:59pm

re: #367 astronmr20

oh well that's appeasement i could like. hostile situation has been averted.

378 lifeofthemind  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:10:00pm

People are still saying it is not our fight and asking, "Why should we care about this place?" I repeat from yesterday from Wikiquote.

How horrible, fantastic, incredible it is that we should be digging trenches and trying on gas-masks here because of a quarrel in a far away country between people of whom we know nothing. It seems still more impossible that a quarrel which has already been settled in principle should be the subject of war.
"Prime Minister on the Issues", The Times, 28 September 1938, p. 10.
Broadcast, 27 September 1938, referring to the Czechoslovakia crisis.

379 xtraBilly  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:10:22pm

If I can be parochial, this would be less of a crisis for us if we were oil independent. Europe is not going to do anything. No one is willing to "adjust" Russian pipelines

380 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:10:49pm

re: #363 pingjockey


Yes Putin was getting ready for this. Both sides are using OLD 1970 planes. I just wish we had given them so F-18/16 and a few M1-A1.

381 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:10:55pm

re: #370 Midwestprof

Yep. They did that to whole swaths of Poland, and pushed the Poles west after WWII. They also took every German who had been in Russia for enturies and deported them to Siberia as well.

May Stalin rot in the 9th Circle of Hell.

382 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:11:09pm

re: #364 Son of the Black Dog

The problem isn't that Russia will go after the Ukraine or the Baltic States. The danger is that they will move to "protect the interests" of the ethnic Russian citizens of the Central Asian Republics, i.e., the 'stans. It also would not be improbable for them to reassert control over Azerbaijan.

Both actions serve to lock up control of even more of the world's oil supply.
This is a war over oil.

* * *
We must insist we drill here & drill now. Our oil companies are standing by to drill locally no doubt. Who'd want to go to drill in some of these totalitarian hell holes now?

383 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:11:29pm

re: #364 Son of the Black Dog

Control of the oil to Western Europe. Russia already controls the Natural Gas, IIRC. Then Putin can hold NATO hostage for further territorial gains.

384 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:11:32pm

re: #353 willowone

he also did a nice job on ,Harvest of Sorrows

Metallica Rulz!
/

385 Biff  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:12:46pm

I think the Ambassador makes a fine point, that this has crossed a line. The US had apparently been willing to accept the historical and protective basis thus far for the Russian invasion. This statement by the Foreign Minister puts things in a completely different light.

386 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:13:01pm

re: #381 Honorary Yooper

PIMF, Centuries.

387 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:13:06pm

re: #373 OldLineTexan

Yeah - but that was due to the famous 'Domino Theory' of the then SecState, Dulles ...

388 jpkoch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:13:23pm

With Winter approaching, there is NO WAY the EU will even consider doing anything other than "deploring the situation" and "calling for a negotiated settlement". As in 2003, Bush will be left holding the bag, and I don't think he can do much other than scold Putin. About 40% of the EU's energy comes through Russian pipelines.

What Bush can do after the fact is strengthen out ties with Poland (perhaps it is time to move 5th Corps out of Germany and into Poland), get the Ukraine into NATO, and issue a warning to Putin that an attack on the Ukraine is an attack on NATO. Maybe we should also resurrect 7th Corp and deploy them to Romania or Bulgaria.

One can imagine how the Dems will act.

389 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:13:32pm

re: #380 Dustoff-507
A brigade of M1A1s and some A-10s plus a few F-16s would've stopped this shit in its tracks.

390 Biff  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:13:37pm

That is of course if that is what the Russian Foreign Minister actually said.

391 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:13:54pm

re: #340 DeafDog

Bah! We have a trillion barrels of worth of shale, but we ain't allowed to refine it. The real 'war for oil' is with the environmentalists.

Aren't They part of the lunatic left ?

G.W. should mobilize the 82nd, take over the N.Y. Times, declare a
'temporary' need for honesty and justice, and then bomb
the hell out of IRAN, and say to Vlad the inhaler,, 'Want to see that again?'

392 Maine's Michael  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:14:02pm

re: #385 Biff

I think the Ambassador makes a fine point, that this has crossed a line. The US had apparently been willing to accept the historical and protective basis thus far for the Russian invasion. This statement by the Foreign Minister puts things in a completely different light.

Wait till Condi hears about this.

She's gonna be pissed.

She's gonna stamp those knee high black boots and kick Israel in the shins over this.

Just watch and see.

393 Scott F.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:14:21pm

Question:
Why did Georgia Shell South Ossetia? I know they have been fighting this on and off for some time now, but do you think Russia was just waiting for such an excuse to Invade?
Finnaly, after messing around enough times, they finally set the bomb off blowing their hands to hamburger, they expect the USA to come to the rescue.
How does the USA frame this in juxtaposition to IRAQ or Afghanistan? They (islamists) messed around in the same manner, until the USA handed their asses to them.
Instead of sitting tight, and letting Russia invade the rest of Georgia first ( which they might have eventually done) , they now have given Putin a Justification.
Somebody educate me here.

394 nikis-knight  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:14:25pm

Why hasn't anyone sent Obama over there to TALK to people yet? We could end this now!

/

395 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:14:30pm

re: #376 astronmr20

Same thing happened to my Estonian Great-grandparents.

* * *
Stalinist reds tried that "repossession & redistribution" drill in Spain circa 1936-1939 on my family.

Generalisimo Francis Franco said NYET to the Soviet, another reason he's hated by reds and libs today.

396 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:14:36pm

re: #376 astronmr20

Same thing happened to my Estonian Great-grandparents.

And my Volgadeutsch relatives who stayed behind when my great-grandparents bugged out of there in 1905-06. No clue what happened to them after 1932.

397 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:14:36pm

re: #388 jpkoch
The donks heads would look like the Martians in that movie!

398 lifeofthemind  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:15:05pm

re: #382 alegrias

* * *
We must insist we drill here & drill now. Our oil companies are standing by to drill locally no doubt. Who'd want to go to drill in some of these totalitarian hell holes now?

For this election the Republicans should have their name on the ballot changed to the Republican Energy party. Fate has handed us our issue we must stand on it.

399 Dustoff-507  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:15:11pm

re: #389 pingjockey


You know it... blood bath .

400 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:15:46pm

Has anyone posted this yet: Via Powerline:


Russian troops have attacked and occupied a Georgian military base near the town of Senaki, which is in western Georgia, nowhere near South Ossetia. This map, courtesy of Stratfor, shows the position clearly:

Russia's attack on the Senaki base contradicts its prior assurances that "We are not moving beyond the boundaries [of South Ossetia] on principle.... Russian peacekeeping forces do not have the task of invading Georgian territory."

Which raises the question: what are we going to do about it?

401 yochanan  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:15:54pm

obama had the deer in the headlight look on this.

the old war is not the answer.

402 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:15:59pm

re: #312 FrogMarch

An uncomfortable ding there.

403 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:16:01pm

re: #390 Biff
So, our Ambassador is lying?

404 Iron Fist  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:16:30pm

re: #364 Son of the Black Dog

The problem isn't that Russia will go after the Ukraine or the Baltic States. The danger is that they will move to "protect the interests" of the ethnic Russian citizens of the Central Asian Republics, i.e., the 'stans. It also would not be improbable for them to reassert control over Azerbaijan.

Both actions serve to lock up control of even more of the world's oil supply.
This is a war over oil.


But that's OK because it's the Russians doing it. Just ask Code Pink. I said it earlier, but it bears repeating. This proves the "anti-war" faction are just anti-US.

There's no wiggle room on that. They'll only protest if we send troops to support Georgia. Then they'll openly be on Russia's side.

405 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:16:33pm

Maybe it's time someone told Putin that unless he backs off from invading Georgia to install his puppet regime of choice there, NATO will impose a blockade on Kaliningrad and the EU will establish travel restrictions on the Russian citizens who live there.

Kaliningrad is the only Russian Baltic Sea port that is ice-free all year around and hence plays an important role in maintenance of the Baltic Fleet.

Due to the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991, the Kaliningrad Oblast became an exclave, geographically separated from the rest of Russia. This isolation from the rest of Russia became even more pronounced politically when Poland and Lithuania became members of NATO and subsequently the European Union in 2004. All military and civilian land links between the region and the rest of Russia have to pass through members of NATO and the EU. Special travel arrangements for the territory's inhabitants have been made.

406 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:16:42pm

re: #401 yochanan

obama had the deer in the headlight look on this.

the old war is not the answer.

This is not the war I knew...

407 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:16:45pm

re: #387 yma o hyd

Yeah - but that was due to the famous 'Domino Theory' of the then SecState, Dulles ...

I remember our High School History teacher discussing & dismissing the Domino Theory - if 1 country goes Communist, their neighbors will follow. Then he gave a brief history of The Indo-China War - Vietnam fell to the Communists, then Laos, then Cambodia. I realized then that I wasn't getting the true story from my teachers & have been reading history on my own ever since.

408 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:16:57pm

re: #289 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Then we're idiots.

But what's new about that?

Gah! I'm getting depressed. Or rather, more depressed.

409 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:16:58pm

re: #374 alegrias seriously i sit in disbelief at what "ideals" are considered mainstream now

410 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:17:27pm

Pres. Bush better not tell the Georgians to inflate their tires more.

I'll flip if he "lets this stand".

411 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:17:38pm

re: #326 pingjockey

Did you notice all the armor was second line stuff?

Yes.

Actually, I'd say it was third line stuff at this point.

The Soviets Russians save everything they build or get their hands on. If WW3 happened in the '80's anyone who lived long enough would have faced Soviet units kitted out with Lend-Lease Sherman tanks and captured German rifles.

412 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:17:45pm

re: #400 reine.de.tout

Has anyone posted this yet: Via Powerline:


NOTHING.

413 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:17:48pm

re: #353 willowone

I have all his books. He's brilliant.

414 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:17:54pm

re: #401 yochanan

obama had the deer in the headlight look on this.

the old war is not the answer.

The only way Obama knows where either Georgia is, is to look and read off the teleprompter.

415 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:18:13pm

re: #413 Dianna
great man, so do i.

416 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:18:16pm

re: #337 Dad O' Blondes

Well, nothing is simple, and yes, it would piss off the Russians.
They do not respond well when pissed off.
Nevertheless, we are going to have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, and if we don't draw it at the Ukraine, where will we draw it?

417 godfrey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:18:44pm

Putin is not going to hold the West hostage. If he tries to threaten us by closing the taps, we'll drill our own oil, mass our forces, dry up all kinds of finances for him, and then starve him to death.

Call Putin's bluff.

Reagan did it, and Russia is even weaker now.

418 American Jewess In Jerusalem  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:19:08pm

Good Lord. Just when you think it can't get much worse.

We had a couple of flights of Georgian Jews fly into Ben Gurion airport yesterday and today. I can't imagine what they are going thrugh.

I'm going to pop back up and read the thread, but, do we have any prophets offering their forecast for where this is all leading?

419 Sir Napsalot  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:19:16pm

All I will say is that ChiCom will be paying extra special attention.

How is the world, esp. the US, going to respond?

420 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:19:17pm

re: #408 Dianna

Then we're idiots.

But what's new about that?

Gah! I'm getting depressed. Or rather, more depressed.

I'm not arguing that point, just saying what I think is the most likely outcome.

If it were up to me, the US would ramp up to such a degree it would make WWII production look like some guys going skeet shooting.

421 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:19:30pm

re: #396 Honorary Yooper

Solzhenitsyn mentions them somewhere in his GULAG Archipelago ... went bad for them, as for all the other nationalities being 'cleared' off their land by Stalin.

422 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:19:53pm
423 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:20:20pm

re: #253 eschew_obfuscation

It is false and stupid to say that most people in Southern California have Mexican passports.

424 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:20:22pm

re: #336 alegrias

O M G, I just heard a liberal say "Russia Is Back!" admiringly.

And, "the Chinese Olympics opening ceremony said "Don't Mess With Us".

Another liberal lawyer totally in awe of totalitarians.

He needs a nice long vacation in Kolyma.

425 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:20:35pm

re: #414 Honorary Yooper

The only way Obama knows where either Georgia is, is to look and read off the teleprompter.

When Obama heard that Russia invaded Georgia, he wondered how this was going to affect the Braves playoff chances.

426 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:20:45pm

re: #419 Sir Napsalot

All I will say is that ChiCom will be paying extra special attention.

How is the world, esp. the US, going to respond?

Well, regarding the ChiComs, I can't believe for one minute that they are too pleased that Russia is invading Georgia while their Olympics are going on.

427 jester6  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:20:55pm

re: #351 Nevergiveup

We seem to be doing ok!

I have met a few upper caste Indians who would never say it publicly, but privately thank the British for giving them a modern civilization to work with.

428 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:21:42pm

re: #419 Sir Napsalot

All I will say is that ChiCom will be paying extra special attention.

How is the world, esp. the US, going to respond?

Indeed. Taiwan must be getting nervous.

429 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:21:44pm

re: #422 buzzsawmonkey


"Generalissimo Fransisco Franco is still dead".

430 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:21:51pm
431 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:21:57pm

re: #388 jpkoch

The Dems would wet their pants. As would the Russians.

432 debutaunt  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:22:09pm

re: #368 markie

Don't forget the Amish factions...

Keep a close eye on your butterchurn.

433 Son of the Black Dog  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:22:10pm

re: #393 Scott F.

Question:
Why did Georgia Shell South Ossetia? ...
... Instead of sitting tight, and letting Russia invade the rest of Georgia first ( which they might have eventually done) , they now have given Putin a Justification.

How do we know who really started shelling South Ossetia?

434 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:22:44pm

re: #430 buzzsawmonkey

"Caste your bread upon the waters, that it may return to you after many days."
--Ecclesiastes

"Who wants soggy days-old bread?"
Beer Drinking Victory Monkey

435 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:23:07pm

re: #372 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

We're all of the above - Former French, Spanish & English colonies. And Dutch & Russian, too.

True, and all of those countries left a cultural imprint. But the predominant influence was British and our political institutions, our Constitution, and even our Revolution (!) came out of a long British tradition.

436 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:23:24pm

re: #427 jester6

I have met a few upper caste Indians who would never say it publicly, but privately thank the British for giving them a modern civilization to work with.

I saw a funny British comedy television show with a completely assimilated Indian British family.

One scene has close ups of them speaking to their relatives visiting from India.

Only when the camera pans back do you see that they are seated at a table and their visiting relatives are seated on the floor.
.
.
.
.
.

I guess you had to be there.

437 FrogMarch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:23:25pm

re: #400 reine.de.tout

Has anyone posted this yet: Via Powerline:

That's good information.

438 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:23:32pm
439 Maximu§  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:23:32pm

How long before Obama blames the Bush administration for letting this happen?

440 Midwestprof  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:24:02pm

...

441 Sir Napsalot  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:24:13pm

Has there any more release from Obama except for the initial short statement in the airport?

This is the exact 3 am phone call moment, what is his excuse? "I am on vacation"?

442 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:24:18pm

re: #433 Son of the Black Dog

How do we know who really started shelling South Ossetia?

Didn't the Germans claim that Poland started shelling them first in 1939?

443 jpkoch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:24:24pm
Wait till Condi hears about this.

She's gonna be pissed.

She's gonna stamp those knee high black boots and kick Israel in the shins over this.

Just watch and see

.

You know, I completely forgot about the Israeli angle. Wait til the KozKids get ahold of that; before you know it, Feith, Perle, and Wolfowitz will be front and center before Reid and Putin Pelosi. It will all be a Neocon conspiracy. Before you know it, the Pravda NY Times will hint darkly that certain Georgian students attended Leo Strauss and Alan Bloom lectures back in the 60s. Condi Rice I'm sure has the Israeli ambassador on the phone now, asking how much land Israel will cede to mollify the Democrats Russians....

444 Iron Fist  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:24:52pm

re: #416 wolfie

This should piss us off. We should not respond well when pissed off. The fact that we do (look at our massively restrained response to 9-11) simply encourages the bad guys around the world to disrespect us.

445 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:25:05pm

FWIW, we (the US) needs to have a two pronged strategy on Georgia:

1) Get Europe to get off its ass -

Since 1990 Europe has found itself in the business of lecturing the US on the proper way for the US to conduct foreign policy while getting the US to pay for the defense of Europe so they could concentrate on their EU project.

We need to ask European leaders candidly - decide NOW where you stand and commit resources and change your rhetoric if you want to convince the US to stay with NATO.

Frankly, for the little help we get from Europe, we might as well take our toys and go home if the EU still wants a "multipolar world".

Let Europe fend off the Russian, Islamist and Iranian poles, and see what progress they can make in bringing the Chinese pole to heel.

2) Explicitly support insurgency in Georgia and Russia

We have learned a hell of a lot in Iraq. Why not apply some of it in assisting Georgian democrats in screwing over the Russians. Russia may have leveled Chechnya, and seem to have no problem leveling Georgia. But IEDs going off in Moscow and St. Petersburg (aimed strictly at Putin's military and security services) may be what such tactics earn.

Number 2 ought to be done regardless of the outcome of number 1.

European intransigence created the "multi polar" world they wished for. Let them survive in it on their own.

446 Midwestprof  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:25:44pm

re: #440 Midwestprof

Oops!

447 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:25:55pm

G.W. is no Reagan

448 Vergeltung  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:25:58pm

re: #362 blutonazi98

thems fightin words there! your lucky i don't have 150 tanks

agreed. he either needs glasses, or, has watched zombie's latest report 117 times. ahem. not that there's anything wrong with that.

heh.

449 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:26:05pm

re: #423 MikeySDCA

It is false and stupid to say that most people in Southern California have Mexican passports.

No, they have Matricular Consular cards, not passports.
/

Are you just a little nervous about the drug gang war raging just on the other side of the border Mikey? I know I am.

450 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:26:09pm
451 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:26:24pm

re: #417 godfrey

Putin is not going to hold the West hostage. If he tries to threaten us by closing the taps, we'll drill our own oil, mass our forces, dry up all kinds of finances for him, and then starve him to death.

Call Putin's bluff.

Reagan did it, and Russia is even weaker now.

One could only hope Putin would be dumb enough to exploit oil production now. The Dems have backed themselves into a corner over not drilling. It would toss a lot of support to the GOP and McCain, IMO.

452 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:26:39pm

re: #250 Dirk Diggler

kevinmumaw,

This isn't a Clancy novel where Jack Ryan and a bunch of whiz bang super weapons ride to the rescue.

Everyone giddy about the prospect of a military confrontation with Russia should watch The Day After.

Who's giddy? I'm in the military. I know combat sucks, but I also know weakness is not the answer. Especially when an ally is on the line. if there is no military response, Georgi will cease to exist as an independent nation. And Ukraine is next.

453 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:26:40pm

re: #421 yma o hyd

Solzhenitsyn mentions them somewhere in his GULAG Archipelago ... went bad for them, as for all the other nationalities being 'cleared' off their land by Stalin.

Yeah, we have a video about where some of them may have gone. People were basically dumped off the train as it went north and east into Siberia. The Russians left people out in the snow to fend for themselves, even on the cold tundra.

After the outbreak off WWI, the prospects for them (and other minorities) in Russia looked much bleaker.

454 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:26:46pm

re: #436 Ben Hur

I saw a funny British comedy television show with a completely assimilated Indian British family.

One scene has close ups of them speaking to their relatives visiting from India.

Only when the camera pans back do you see that they are seated at a table and their visiting relatives are seated on the floor.
.
.
.
.
.

I guess you had to be there.

Heh. Was that the series 'Goodness Gracious Me'? It was hilarious!

455 godfrey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:26:46pm

re: #433 Son of the Black Dog

How do we know who really started shelling South Ossetia?

This question is now academic. There were aggressive moves on both sides. The question now is to define the consequences Russia must face for eating Georgia. It could have stopped at the South Ossetian border, but it did not. It is now calling for the ouster of Saakashvili. This is naked aggression. What is our response?

tick tock

456 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:26:55pm

re: #436 Ben Hur

I saw a funny British comedy television show with a completely assimilated Indian British family.

One scene has close ups of them speaking to their relatives visiting from India.

Only when the camera pans back do you see that they are seated at a table and their visiting relatives are seated on the floor.
.
.
.
.
.

I guess you had to be there.

That's funny.

/no kidding

457 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:27:15pm

re: #422 buzzsawmonkey

If Orwell can be believed, the Spanish revolution began as an indigenous thing, though it was rapidly co-opted by the Soviets.

Franco was a POS who "defended Christian Spain" with Moorish troops and Nazi aid. Admitting that it is probably better in the long run that the Fascists beat the Communists in Spain, there is no reason to regard Franco, or his regime, as any prize package.

* * *
My relatives were attacked by reds and are alive thanks to Franco.
Franco WELCOMED the USA and allowed us to operate there.
Franco tossed out the Stalinists and returned his country to democracy 15 years before the Soviets imploded.

Don't tell me what to think of Franco, Buzz.

458 Biff  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:27:31pm

re: #403 pingjockey

Posturing, maybe?

459 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:27:41pm

re: #401 yochanan

obama had the deer in the headlight look on this.

the old war is not the answer.

Anyone who says that war is not the answer had willfully ignored the question.

460 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:28:13pm

re: #405 A. van Hilten

Heh, heh.
Sitting duck. Heh.

461 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:28:15pm

Call western Norway and let them know what you think!

Telemegaphone

462 Noah's Arrrgh  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:28:16pm

re: #1 Cognito

As expected. Next: the march to Tbilisi.

Yep. And then Armenia, Azerbaijan (perhaps even with help from its new found best friend and client state, Iran). And after the UN issues its 153rd stern warning to Russia, they'll move on to Belorussia and Eastern Ukraine, with the same pretext that they used to invade Georgia.

If that goes well, then it will be on to Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. After all, there are Russians in those countries as well, and they are all complaining that they're being treated like 2nd class citizens.

One last thing: I'm sure the Left will contrive some rationale which makes all of this GWB's fault.

463 FrogMarch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:28:44pm
UPDATE: Onrushing Russian troops, continuing to drive into the heart of Georgia, have captured the city of Gori. In Georgia's capital, Tbilisi, there was a surreal scene as President Saakashvili's bodyguards rushed him to safety, apparently believing that the capital was about to come under attack from Russian planes:


via: powerline link above

(but somehow Russia isn't the aggressor) /Kremlin/ left-wing /DIblog

464 trailortrash  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:29:02pm

poti is now taken...

465 RememberSekhmet?  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:29:03pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

I'm starting to wonder how this new Soviet Russian boldness is going to effect the situation with Iran. How far are the Russians going to go on defending their Iranian allies?

I think part of PooPoo's calculations are in hopes of making us draw off resources we have been using to keep Iran in check.

466 FrogMarch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:30:03pm

when Putin sets his sights on the death of someone who is "in the way" - watch out.

I hope Saakashvili survives the night.

467 godfrey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:30:19pm

What's our plan for Azerbaijan?

As for the Left, they can't wait to dance around and say, "See? If we were all operating instead on solar power and eating wheatberries, we wouldn't have any problems at all!"

At which point, they will have proved themselves to have fewer brains than a chimpanzee.

468 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:30:29pm

re: #443 jpkoch

. It will all be a Neocon conspiracy...

Don't forget to misquote the Project for the New American Century. No doubt Chomsky will have yet another tedious tome on it soon enough.

469 Ben Hur  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:30:40pm

re: #442 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

Didn't the Germans claim that Poland started shelling them first in 1939?

Don't the Arabs still claim Israel as the agressor?

(this is fun)

470 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:30:42pm

re: #464 trailortrash

poti is now taken...

Is that a Black Sea port?

471 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:30:56pm

re: #418 American Jewess In Jerusalem

No prophets, AJ, but some good thinking flying around.
Let us know when/if you find out what those Georgian refugees have to say, okay?

472 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:30:58pm

bush speak in 30 minutes

473 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:31:00pm

re: #458 Biff
Who? The Russian or the US Amb. The Russian Amb. said what he was told to say by the Kremlin. Russian or any spokesman for any dictator does not deviate from the script, that is if he wants to stay vertical.

474 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:31:09pm

re: #400 reine.de.tout

Has anyone posted this yet: Via Powerline:

BTW - it looks like the Russians have pretty much ignored the UN "buffer zone" in the area to mount that attack.

What did Obama recommend for the situation, again? What organization was needed?

Oh yeah - the UN.

It is 3am and he is on vacation.

475 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:31:27pm

re: #467 godfrey

At which point, they will have proved themselves to have fewer brains than a chimpanzee.

I resemble that remark!

476 Noah's Arrrgh  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:31:47pm

re: #466 FrogMarch

when Putin sets his sights on the death of someone who is "in the way" - watch out.

I hope Saakashvili survives the night.

I wonder if they are firing up the reactors at Dubna to crank out some more polonium.

477 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:32:10pm

re: #453 Honorary Yooper

That is so sad - its one thing to read about it, it is totally different when family members are involved, when there are old family photos ...
Russia is good at breaking the hearts of its peoples.

478 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:32:25pm

re: #474 karmic_inquisitor

BTW - it looks like the Russians have pretty much ignored the UN "buffer zone" in the area to mount that attack.

What did Obama recommend for the situation, again? What organization was needed?

Oh yeah - the UN.

It is 3am and he is on vacation.

The U.N will issue a strongly worded statement, I'm sure.

479 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:32:37pm

re: #474 karmic_inquisitor

BTW - it looks like the Russians have pretty much ignored the UN "buffer zone" in the area to mount that attack.

What did Obama recommend for the situation, again? What organization was needed?

Oh yeah - the UN.

It is 3am and he is on vacation.

Kevin Bacon's ROTC character in Animal House comes to mind - "Remain calm! All is well!"

480 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:32:46pm

re: #285 zombie

I know it won't happen, and it is very frustrating. But a few hundred javelins and stingers might be in order. Afterall, since the Russians deny being in Georgia, they can't lose any tanks or aircraft in Georgia, right?

481 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:32:54pm

re: #442 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

Didn't the Germans claim that Poland started shelling them first in 1939?

I usually refer to this phenomena as a "canned goods" operation after the SS euphemism for the prisoners they dressed in Polish uniforms and shot.

482 FrogMarch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:33:18pm

KGB commies are lying bastards.

483 trailortrash  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:33:23pm

re: #470 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

yes, the main one in georgia...

484 jcm  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:34:02pm

re: #449 CyanSnowHawk

No, they have Matricular Consular cards, not passports.
/

Are you just a little nervous about the drug gang war raging just on the other side of the border Mikey? I know I am.

Other side? It keeps drifting over to this side. Phoenix and the little incursion last week are just the latest.

485 FrogMarch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:34:18pm

re: #476 Noah's Arrrgh

I wonder if they are firing up the reactors at Dubna to crank out some more polonium.

I hope the polonium goes Chernobyl on Putin and his goons.

486 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:34:30pm

re: #479 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

Kevin Bacon's ROTC character in Animal House comes to mind - "Remain calm! All is well!"

"Georgia? Russia? Who cares? What time is the luau?"

487 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:34:42pm

re: #449 CyanSnowHawk

No, they have Matricular Consular cards, not passports.
/

Are you just a little nervous about the drug gang war raging just on the other side of the border Mikey? I know I am.

Mexicans with Matricular Consular cards don't tip pizza drivers.

488 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:34:58pm

re: #410 alegrias

You and me, both.

489 Noah's Arrrgh  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:35:08pm

re: #482 FrogMarch

KGB commies are lying bastards.

No surprise that Putain [sic] was/is the head of it.

490 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:35:20pm
491 Vergeltung  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:35:33pm

re: #457 alegrias

* * *
My relatives were attacked by reds and are alive thanks to Franco.
Franco WELCOMED the USA and allowed us to operate there.
Franco tossed out the Stalinists and returned his country to democracy 15 years before the Soviets imploded.

Don't tell me what to think of Franco, Buzz.

agreed. Spain is free today because of Franco.

492 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:35:37pm

re: #467 godfrey

What's our plan for Azerbaijan?

As for the Left, they can't wait to dance around and say, "See? If we were all operating instead on solar power and eating wheatberries, we wouldn't have any problems at all!"

At which point, they will have proved themselves to have fewer brains than a chimpanzee.

Well - Azerbaijan is mostly Muslim. So Putin will declare that taking over there is his contribution to the GWOT ...
Sorry about the pol, get yer solar power going ...

493 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:35:44pm

re: #462 Noah's Arrrgh

Y

If that goes well, then it will be on to Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania. After all, there are Russians in those countries as well, and they are all complaining that they're being treated like 2nd class citizens.

That is precisely where this is headed. Putin is restoring the empire. He knows Europe has no stomach (or domestic Gas supplies) to stop him.

But Europe will join our left in rationalizing how Bush and the neo-cons brought this about. And the US will be expected to pour more resources into defending Europe while their citizens are encouraged to protest US warmongering.

They live in a bubble.

494 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:36:29pm

re: #418 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Disaster and betrayal.

But I'm suffering from extreme gloom.

495 CyanSnowHawk  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:36:34pm

re: #484 jcm

Other side? It keeps drifting over to this side. Phoenix and the little incursion last week are just the latest.

That's what's making me nervous. The problem is bad and getting worse.

496 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:37:05pm

re: #478 reine.de.tout

The U.N will issue a strongly worded statement, I'm sure.

The real joke is that the UN will do no such thing - Russia has a veto and China will join her.

Once again, Obama proves he has no fucking clue about how the world functions.

497 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:37:18pm

re: #470 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

Is that a Black Sea port?

Poti is where one arm of that oil pipeline from Azerbaijan ends, to be loaded on tankers, and exported.

498 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:37:45pm

re: #439 Maximu§

How long before Obama blames the Bush administration for letting this happen?

You mean he hasn't already?

499 Noah's Arrrgh  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:38:03pm

re: #493 karmic_inquisitor

That is precisely where this is headed.

I have no doubt that this their end-game. They're just testing the water with Georgia. Mark my words, they won't stop at Georgia.

500 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:38:22pm

re: #472 willowone

bush speak in 30 minutes

I'm sticking matches between my eyelids - wanna hear this - if someone can provide a link ...

501 lifeofthemind  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:38:26pm

Israel has one advantage over Georgia to ensure that she does not go quietly into the night. At this point Everyone is going to get their own nuclear weapons. Expect that in 10 years the number of countries with nukes will have doubled.

502 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:38:43pm

re: #480 kevinmumaw

I
know it won't happen, and it is very frustrating. But a few hundred
javelins and stingers might be in order. Afterall, since the Russians
deny being in Georgia, they can't lose any tanks or aircraft in
Georgia, right?

We should do what the Russians did in Korea - supply them with top of the line fighters piloted by Georgians, who just happen to speak English.

503 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:39:07pm

re: #479 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

Kevin Bacon's ROTC character in Animal House comes to mind - "Remain calm! All is well!"

And we know what happened to him.

504 Kenneth  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:39:11pm

re: #492 yma o hyd

Well - Azerbaijan is mostly Muslim. So Putin will declare that taking over there is his contribution to the GWOT ...
Sorry about the pol, get yer solar power going ...

Azerbaijan is an active member of international coalitions fighting international terrorism. The country is contributing to peacekeeping efforts in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq. Azerbaijan is an active member of NATO's “Partnership for Peace” program. It also maintains good relations with the European Union, and could potentially one day apply for membership. see Azerbaijan and the European Union.

505 MikeySDCA  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:39:11pm

re: #501 lifeofthemind

Yes indeed.

506 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:39:23pm

re: #443 jpkoch

.

You know, I completely forgot about the Israeli angle. Wait til the KozKids get ahold of that; before you know it, Feith, Perle, and Wolfowitz will be front and center before Reid and Putin Pelosi. It will all be a Neocon conspiracy. Before you know it, the Pravda NY Times will hint darkly that certain Georgian students attended Leo Strauss and Alan Bloom lectures back in the 60s. Condi Rice I'm sure has the Israeli ambassador on the phone now, asking how much land Israel will cede to mollify the Democrats Russians....

Israel has been selling weapons to Georgia, but stopped months ago.
According to this report.

Let's see what anti-Semites stick their ugly heads up.

507 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:39:53pm

re: #502 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

We should do what the Russians did in Korea - supply them with top of the line fighters piloted by Georgians, who just happen to speak English.

Planes with Georgian markings, launching from Iraq, with English-speaking pilots?

I like it.

508 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:40:10pm

This is newsradio880, on live. President Bush is going to make a statement about the war in Georgia at about 5:15 PM, NY time...anyone who wants to hear it can click on it. It will be live then. .

509 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:40:43pm

re: #483 trailortrash

yes, the main one in georgia...

Well that answers the question of how Russia will supply their forces should the Caucasus passes be blocked.

510 FrogMarch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:40:52pm

re: #493 karmic_inquisitor

That is precisely where this is headed. Putin is restoring the empire. He knows Europe has no stomach (or domestic Gas supplies) to stop him.

But Europe will join our left in rationalizing how Bush and the neo-cons brought this about. And the US will be expected to pour more resources into defending Europe while their citizens are encouraged to protest US warmongering.

They live in a bubble.

bingo.

511 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:41:10pm

A BBC "reporter" is now lambasting a Georgian for bombarding civilian targets...(as the aggressor, of course). And the BBC "reporter" is further alleging that this was all pre-planned and pre-determined (on the part of the Georgians).

512 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:41:47pm

If Putin wants to commit the resources he can go all the way to Iran.

513 jpkoch  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:42:19pm

I bet Howard Dean is asking, "What next?"

It wasn't suppose to happen this way. Pelosi flies the coop; the GOP protests Madame Speaker from the Hill; Russia invades Georgia; soon to come a nice big spike in oil prices.

All of those snarky aphorisms "We cannot drill our way out of this problem" ring very hallow right now. I can imagine Howard Dean screaming over the phone at Obama's recent "Citizen of the World" speech. Dean and Obama's handlers know there is nothing in Obama's lexicon that can inspire any confidence. His speech now seems so much political theater. Obama doesn't dare go bellicose -can't upset the Kozkids.

The Convention is less than 3 weeks away....and events are conspiring against the Dems... Karl Rove, you brilliant sonofabitch!

514 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:42:21pm

re: #504 Kenneth

Azerbaijan is an active member of international coalitions fighting international terrorism. The country is contributing to peacekeeping efforts in Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq. Azerbaijan is an active member of NATO's “Partnership for Peace” program. It also maintains good relations with the European Union, and could potentially one day apply for membership. see Azerbaijan and the European Union.

A whole bunch of reasons for Putin to take over, then ...

515 The Other Les  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:42:30pm

re: #502 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

We should do what the Russians did in Korea - supply them with top of the line fighters piloted by Georgians, who just happen to speak English.

Dude. All fighter pilots from Western Nations HAVE TO speak English.

(I've got a DVD with Swiss Air Force fighter pilots chattering in English.)

516 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:42:37pm

kevinmumaw,

Who's giddy? I'm in the military. I know combat sucks, but I also know weakness is not the answer.

Nor is getting goaded into a fight that one ultimately cannot win. That was Georgia's mistake.

517 Wendya  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:42:47pm

re: #204 MikeySDCA

Love your "hall pass", but the internationally recognized status is a good deal less clear than you assume.

I'm pretty sure the borders of Georgia are internationally recognized.

518 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:43:02pm

re: #478 reine.de.tout

The U.N will issue a strongly worded statement, I'm sure.

As soon as they can figure out how to blame Israel and the US.

519 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:43:10pm

re: #422 buzzsawmonkey

If Orwell can be believed, the Spanish revolution began as an indigenous thing, though it was rapidly co-opted by the Soviets.

Franco was a POS who "defended Christian Spain" with Moorish troops and Nazi aid. Admitting that it is probably better in the long run that the Fascists beat the Communists in Spain, there is no reason to regard Franco, or his regime, as any prize package.

You're awfully misinformed...

He used "Moorish troops" because, well, you know, Spanish Morocco and Western Sahara were a "Spanish protectorate." Colonial troops were made up of *local* inhabtiants who, in this case, happened to be Moors. Shocka!

BTW, those "Moorish troops" from Morocco that you disdain so much were used as shock troops against the Germans at Monte Cassino as well:

On May 14 Moroccan Goumiers, travelling through the mountains parallel to the Liri valley, ground which was undefended because it was not thought possible to traverse such terrain, outflanked the German defense materially assisting XIII Corps in the valley. In 1943 the Goumiers were colonial troops formed into four Groups of Moroccan Tabors (GTM), each consisting of three loosely organised Tabors (roughly equivalent to a battalion) specialised in mountain warfare. Juin's French Expeditionary Corps consisted of the Command of Moroccan Goumiers (CGM) (with the 1st, 3rd and 4th GTM) of General Augustin Guillaume[35] totalling some 7,800 fighting men,[36] broadly the same infantry strength as a division, and 4 more conventional divisions: the 2nd Moroccan Infantry Division (2 DIM), the 3rd Algerian Infantry Division (3 DIA), the 4th Moroccan Mountain Division (4 DMM) and the 1st Free French Division (1 DM).

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

They were extremely ruthless but got the job done.

520 nacazo  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:43:13pm

re: #285 zombie

I don't think there will be ANY taste for sending US troops to Georgia to fight the Russians. That just ain't gonna happen.

Saddam Hussein goaded us for years and years, and the American people already hated him, and we had a military history in Iraq. But even so, it took some convincing to get the 2003 Iraq War approved.

But Georgia? Hell, most Americans have barely heard of it, and we have no military history there at all. What American mother is going to want to send her son to defend a nation she's never heard of over an issue that is completely murky?

In 2003, stopping the global jihad was an understandable goal. But what overarching goal can be communicated to the American people to justify American troops defending South Ossetia?

Good point. Probably a better approach would be: massive arms shipments to Georgia, blockade breaking, anti-tank, stingers. Banking sanctions. Technology restrictions to Russia. Travel restrictions to Russians. Recalling the Ambassador to Russia for "Consultations".

521 jcm  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:43:20pm

re: #502 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

We should do what the Russians did in Korea - supply them with top of the line fighters piloted by Georgians, who just happen to speak English.

A couple F-22 in Georgian colors might be noticed.

Not that would be a bad thing.

522 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:43:27pm

re: #444 Iron Fist

This should piss us off. We should not respond well when pissed off. The fact that we do (look at our massively restrained response to 9-11) simply encourages the bad guys around the world to disrespect us.


Caution and cleverness at picking which fights to take on and which lines to draw are always in order.
But we can't afford to be paralyzed into inaction for fear that we'll make the Russians (or Islamists, or Chinese, or Euroweenies, etc etc) mad.
I agree w/ you that it is better to be respected and that half-hearted or no response is dangerous......usually even in the short run.

523 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:43:37pm

re: #500 yma o hyd

Here is a link.

524 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:43:39pm

re: #502 beerdrinking_victorymonkey

We should do what the Russians did in Korea - supply them with top of the line fighters piloted by Georgians, who just happen to speak English.

Air superiority is everything.

I don't know why the Georgians didn't bomb that tunnel between Russia and S.O. in the opening moments of this thing. Too late now.

525 Silhouette  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:44:15pm

If I wanted to be lazy, I don't think I'd even have to sit down, acquaint myself with the history and current facts, and keep abreast of the players and inter-workings.

I just have to read Reuters, the BBC, AP, etc. and see who they're painting as the bad guy. Then know it is the other.

526 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:44:51pm

re: #508 NY Nana

This is newsradio880, on live. President Bush is going to make a statement about the war in Georgia at about 5:15 PM, NY time...anyone who wants to hear it can click on it. It will be live then. .

Thanks - have got it running right now ...

527 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:45:08pm

re: #490 buzzsawmonkey

I have seldom heard anything good of Franco, save that he maintained Spain's neutrality and permitted refugees from Nazi-occupied Europe to enter during WWII.

And, seeing as how he designated a king as his successor prior to his death in the mid-Seventies, it is difficult to see how he "returned his country to democracy." If indeed he did so, he made sure that he would be safely dead by the time democracy kicked in, and would not have to deal with it--as he refused to deal with it during his reign as dictator.

If he saved your relatives, I am certainly glad of that. But I hold no warm place in my heart for someone who gladly accepted Nazi aid, and indeed provided the Nazis with a training ground for the murders of civilians they practiced during WWII.

* * *
For Franco's last twenty years of "dictatorship" Spain accepted US MILITARY AID and allowed the US to build and operate military bases all over the country to fight USSR on our side.

Buzz, Franco was FRIENDLY to the USA post WWII and a bulwark against Soviet imperialism.

Franco beat the SOVIETS out of his country, apparently without US help. THEN he helped the USA. Deal with it.

528 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:45:23pm

re: #393 Scott F.

Question:
Why did Georgia Shell South Ossetia? I know they have been fighting this on and off for some time now, but do you think Russia was just waiting for such an excuse to Invade?
Finnaly, after messing around enough times, they finally set the bomb off blowing their hands to hamburger, they expect the USA to come to the rescue.
How does the USA frame this in juxtaposition to IRAQ or Afghanistan? They (islamists) messed around in the same manner, until the USA handed their asses to them.
Instead of sitting tight, and letting Russia invade the rest of Georgia first ( which they might have eventually done) , they now have given Putin a Justification.
Somebody educate me here.

The S Ossetians and Georgians had been shelling each other for awhile prior to the Russian invasion. There was an article by a Russian journalist (soon to be assassinated, I'm sure) detailing the Russian machinations in S Ossetia which was designed to provoke a response. I'll try to find the link, it was on an earlier thread.

529 Egfrow  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:45:29pm

Putin said Russia should come back to Cuba, I assume he means the way he's come back to Georgia.

530 Wendya  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:46:41pm

re: #142 MikeySDCA

Yes, in a sense. Georgia sent troops into South Ossetia, the sovereignty to which is, to but it mildly, debatable, and most of whose inhabitants have Russian passports.

South Ossetia has no "sovereignty" They are legally a part of Georgia. Russia gave them passports in an effort to force Georgia to relinquish control.

531 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:46:57pm
532 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:47:04pm

re: #515 The Other Les

Dude. All fighter pilots from Western Nations HAVE TO speak English.

(I've got a DVD with Swiss Air Force fighter pilots chattering in English.)

Georgia isn't in NATO though.

All air traffic controllers have to speak English, FWIW.

533 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:47:17pm

re: #526 yma o hyd

Enjoy! I have it on all day, except when there is a damned Yankees game, but then the news is on, on the computer, thankfully.

534 Maximu§  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:47:19pm

We should have let General Patton's 3rd Army finish off these commie bastards.

535 Iron Fist  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:48:11pm

re: #512 pingjockey

Russia's always wanted a port on the Indian Ocean. Nobody would say squat, probably not even the US. Russia in Iran beats, well, the Iranians. I'd like to see us settle with the Iranians, though, personally.

536 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:50:11pm

The f---cking BBC freak is now rubbing it in the face of the Georgian that no ally ever came to the aid of Hungary, etc. (unbelievable -- the execrable scum at certain media outlets.)

537 Aylios  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:50:21pm
"The director has been invited, and he suddenly became ill," said Mr. Putin, according to the Moscow Times. "I think he should get well as soon as possible. Otherwise, we will have to send him a doctor and clean up all the problems." Mr. Zyuzin had been hospitalized a day earlier with heart problems.

Nice.

538 Iron Fist  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:50:23pm

re: #529 Egfrow

That we shouldn't permit. We should take this as a green light to take out the Castro regieme. It's time to bring Cuba into the 21st Century.

539 jcm  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:51:25pm

re: #535 Iron Fist

Russia's always wanted a port on the Indian Ocean. Nobody would say squat, probably not even the US. Russia in Iran beats, well, the Iranians. I'd like to see us settle with the Iranians, though, personally.

I have from the last CIA station chief in Tehran (his son and I where in school together) before the take over that a big part of the destabilization of the Shah was a Soviet play. The didn't count on Rabbit Bait cutting the Shah loose so quickly and green lighting Khomemini.

540 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:51:59pm

re: #508 NY Nana

Thanks from me, too, Nana. Have it on.

541 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:52:03pm

re: #535 Iron Fist
Well the Putins been helping the Iranians, just clearing a path to get to Irans border would help. Then comes the mutual aid pact, non agression treatys, then the ultimatum to the state of Israel backed with Russian ICBMs.

542 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:52:09pm

re: #524 karmic_inquisitor

Air superiority is everything.

I don't know why the Georgians didn't bomb that tunnel between Russia and S.O. in the opening moments of this thing. Too late now.

Neither do I; it puzzled me at the time, and I'm extremely curious as to what we'll find out later.

543 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:53:49pm
544 kevinmumaw  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:54:25pm

re: #516 Dirk Diggler

Georgia is guilty of stupidity. The penalty shouldn't be they lose their country. They came when we called. What are we going to do when they cry out? Sit back and think "sucks to be you?" If so, we forfeit the right to have a single ally in the world.

545 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:54:56pm

re: #529 Egfrow

Putin said Russia should come back to Cuba, I assume he means the way he's come back to Georgia.

I say we invoke the Monroe Doctrine if he pulls that bullshit.

546 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:55:03pm

re: #536 J.S.

The f---cking BBC freak is now rubbing it in the face of the Georgian that no ally ever came to the aid of Hungary, etc. (unbelievable -- the execrable scum at certain media outlets.)

Have you got a name for that BBC freak?

547 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:57:23pm

re: #539 jcm

I have from the last CIA station chief in Tehran (his son and I where in school together) before the take over that a big part of the destabilization of the Shah was a Soviet play. The didn't count on Rabbit Bait cutting the Shah loose so quickly and green lighting Khomemini.

* * *
Don't tell Buzzmonkey but the SHAH of IRAN was our anti-Soviet friend in a tough neighborhood, though he was "mean" and a dictator.

548 karmic_inquisitor  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:57:26pm

re: #520 nacazo

Good point. Probably a better approach would be: massive arms shipments to Georgia, blockade breaking, anti-tank, stingers. Banking sanctions. Technology restrictions to Russia. Travel restrictions to Russians. Recalling the Ambassador to Russia for "Consultations".

JFK created the Special Forces for mounting insurgencies.

We should do just that.

549 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:58:08pm

re: #544 kevinmumaw

The problem being that it's predictable, and we tend to betray our allies.

550 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:58:18pm

re: #518 Kosh's Shadow

As soon as they can figure out how to blame Israel and the US.



Pravda is blaming, not the U.S., but the Republicans . . .

551 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:58:58pm

re: #541 pingjockey

Well
the Putins been helping the Iranians, just clearing a path to get to
Irans border would help. Then comes the mutual aid pact, non agression
treatys, then the ultimatum to the state of Israel backed with Russian
ICBMs.

Ezekiel Option, indeed.

552 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 1:59:49pm

re: #550 reine.de.tout
Of course they are. They want a weak kneed, pussified, metrosexual in the White House. It makes taking over their empire that much easier.

553 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:00:13pm

re: #550 reine.de.tout


Pravda is blaming, not the U.S., but the Republicans . . .

Who do they think they are? The Moscow Bureau of the New York Times?

554 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:00:42pm

Time to say goodnight, Lizards.

555 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:00:44pm

re: #551 beerdrinking_victorymonkey
Is that a book? Hell I was just looking at worst case scenarios of different types.

556 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:00:55pm

re: #546 yma o hyd

No. It was on the BBC World "News" tv channel -- on the program "Hard Talk." aired today -- August 11, 2008, 2 pm (On another broadcast -- the one in which the "host" was alleging that Georgian officials were liars -- the host of that one was Jonathan Charles in London).

557 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:01:46pm
558 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:02:02pm

re: #555 pingjockey

Is that a book? Hell I was just looking at worst case scenarios of different types.

A book loosely based on the Ezekiel prophecy of a grand coalition against Israel - Russia, Iran, et al.
/really gotta go now.

559 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:02:26pm

re: #558 beerdrinking_victorymonkey
Bye!

560 Robert O.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:04:00pm

I looked into Vladimir Putin's soul and I saw four letters:

C, C, C, and P.

562 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:04:47pm

re: #560 Robert O.
I saw Czar or Tsar, take your pick.

563 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:05:29pm

re: #561 reine.de.tout
That is gonna go along way! Not.

564 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:05:30pm

re: #531 buzzsawmonkey

Doesn't sound like misinformation to me. You have just confirmed that the "defender of Christian Spain" used Moorish troops--which is precisely what I said he did--to fight against actual Spaniards.

That he accepted Nazi aid is a matter of historical record. That he ran a dictatorship which brooked no opposition until he became feeble and handed over the baton to a member of the royal family is also a matter of historical record.

So where, pray, is this "misinformation?"

You insist that enlisting the help of colonial (Moroccan, i.e. Muslim) troops to fight on his side of the conflict (aka the "National Crusade") is somehow an act of hypocrisy on his part.

Not so. He was using Spanish troops (which BTW he never insisted on converting to Christianity). Franco imposed his Christian totalitarian regime in Spain and to a lesser extent in present-day Equatorial Guinea, but never tried to impose Christianity on the protectorate or its inhabitants.

The "misinformation" on your part has to do with your claim that Franco did this in spite of proclaiming himself the new "defender of Christian Spain." Why is this any different from the way in which the British, French, Portuguese, Dutch and Belgian governments used their colonial troops?

565 jcm  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:05:37pm

re: #547 alegrias

* * *
Don't tell Buzzmonkey but the SHAH of IRAN was our anti-Soviet friend in a tough neighborhood, though he was "mean" and a dictator.

Yeah, to an extent. Lived there 10 years under the Shah. He was among the most benign of Dictators, a lot of the oil money made it to the lowest levels of society in the White Revolution. He was aiming ultimate for the British Model for the Monarchy / Parliament. The Russians didn't like that one bit nor did the Mullahs.

566 Silhouette  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:05:51pm

re: #561 reine.de.tout

U.S. Security Council to Take Up Georgia-Russia Crisis in Emergency Session

Oh goody. The UN is on the job. We can relax now. All will be well.

567 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:06:27pm

re: #556 J.S.

No. It was on the BBC World "News" tv channel -- on the program "Hard Talk." aired today -- August 11, 2008, 2 pm (On another broadcast -- the one in which the "host" was alleging that Georgian officials were liars -- the host of that one was Jonathan Charles in London).

Thanks - thats one of the Beeb channels for which I'd need a set-top box, which I'm not going to get.
Jonathan Charles, however, I've come across him. He's another of those LLL journos which hve taken over at the Beeb.
Thanks.

568 jcm  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:06:37pm

re: #562 pingjockey

I saw Czar or Tsar, take your pick.

Rabbi, Rabbi is there a proper blessing for the Tsar?
mmmmm
Yes, may the Lord bless and keep the Tsar...... far away from us.

569 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:07:44pm

re: #568 jcm
I saw that the other day. Appropriate.

570 paradox42  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:08:15pm

re: #520 nacazo

What about exploiting the massive corruption in the Russian millitary? Something around half of the officers are on the take in some form or another and even more so for the enlisted.

571 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:09:10pm

re: #557 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, the Shah was both of those things. He was not, however, put into power with Nazi troops.

* * *
You'd have been FOR the communists taking over wholesale the Westernmost European country on the continent of Europe, before you would have been against the communist take over.

Whatever. Franco went to war against the Stalinists invading his country with the army he had.

After beating the USSR out of his country, he was PRO American and that was a good thing.

572 jcm  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:09:17pm

re: #569 pingjockey

I saw that the other day. Appropriate.

I love that line, applies to congress too!

573 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:09:48pm
574 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:11:18pm

re: #553 Honorary Yooper

Who do they think they are? The Moscow Bureau of the New York Times?

The other way. The NYT is the NYC bureau of Pravda.

575 Kosh's Shadow  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:12:23pm

re: #560 Robert O.

I looked into Vladimir Putin's soul and I saw four letters:

C, C, C, and P.

I saw "K,G,B".

576 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:13:10pm

NYT=Pravda on the Hudson

577 pingjockey  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:14:06pm

OT son of Hamas leader in San Diego and a Christian convert, on FNC just now.

578 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:14:10pm

re: #573 buzzsawmonkey

* * *
Former "President" Putin may have been "elected" but he's still a Stalinist swine deserving demotion & removal & toppling.

Not all "elected" governments are created equal, as Putin's fake democracy demonstrates.

When stalinists invade your country, one's military is right to fight them. Franco was a Spanish general first, and did the patriotic thing in removing Stalinists from his country.

579 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:14:40pm
580 pbird  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:17:24pm

re: #283 The Other Les

I once had a dream that I was standing in a field under a full moon while watching Minuteman III ICBM's being launched from their silos.

Ew, you gave me goosebumps...

581 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:19:05pm

re: #573 buzzsawmonkey

When, pray, did the British, French, Portuguese, Dutch, or Belgian governments use their colonial troops to overthrow the elected governments of their own countries?

Hello?

Nope, they didn't use their colonial troops to overthrow their elected governments. They simply used their colonial troops in any which way they saw fit. Just like Franco. He did try (and managed) to — successfully — overthrow the elected government in Spain. But the fact that he relied
on Spanish colonial troops (Muslim or otherwise) to get the job done is irrelevant. Which was my point from the start.

You're parroting the "he used Moorish troops" line, as if it was a crime. Nope. The crime was what he did with those troops, but those troops were considered at the time to be as legitimate as Peninsular army forces.

582 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:20:01pm

Anyone know when the Pres. is going to speak

583 Wendya  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:20:15pm

re: #508 NY Nana

This is newsradio880, on live. President Bush is going to make a statement about the war in Georgia at about 5:15 PM, NY time...anyone who wants to hear it can click on it. It will be live then. .

Additionally, cbs news is doing a live feed. Link is marked on the website.

584 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:20:22pm
585 Wendya  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:20:37pm

re: #582 Dizzy26

Anyone know when the Pres. is going to speak

They just gave the 2 minute warning.

586 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:20:37pm

re: #582 Dizzy26

Anyone know when the Pres. is going to speak

About now-ish ...

587 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:21:05pm

re: #582 Dizzy26
i thought 5 eastern, than i heard 15;15 now im kicking my heels

588 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:21:17pm

5;15*

589 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:21:36pm
590 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:22:02pm

I sure pray that he grows some .....well, lets just say I hope he says
more than 'naughty, naughty, don't do that!'

591 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:22:17pm

re: #570 paradox42

They're more scared of being shot.

592 Wendya  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:22:48pm

President Bush just isn't a good public speaker.

593 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:22:56pm

He's on now! GO GEORGE!

594 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:23:08pm

re: #584 buzzsawmonkey

True, not all elected governments are created equal. But one of the determinants of true democracy--or, better, a true republic--is that even if the #&!&@ other side wins, you don't rush to commit a coup, but wait until the next election and take the government back.

Once again, the Stalinists came in after the domestic Spanish establishment of a leftist government. And on the historical evidence, the Stalinists came in/were invited in because the government was looking to counterbalance Franco's Nazi backers. It may be an uncomfortable thing to realize that Franco created the problem he "solved," but nobody's offered any evidence to the contrary here.

* * *
Well I'm only here thanks to Franco keeping my family alive from their stalinist Spanish tormentors so don't expect me to bite the hand that delivered me to the US of A!

595 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:23:25pm

Accept the peace agreement, or what?!

596 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:23:37pm

re: #574 Kosh's Shadow

The other way. The NYT is the NYC bureau of Pravda.

Toe-may-toe
Toe-mah-toe

597 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:23:48pm

re: #592 Wendya
he wasn't, and i didnt hear anything concrete

598 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:23:59pm

re: #592 Wendya

President Bush just isn't a good public speaker.

He isn't a good reader! Ever hear his post 911 speech? He's good, damn good

599 LeePro  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:24:01pm

re: #561 reine.de.tout

U.S. Security Council to Take Up Georgia-Russia Crisis in Emergency Session

From your link:

Another hit near key Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan oil pipeline, which carries Caspian crude to the West. No supply interruptions have been reported.

I'm late to this thread, but not to the topic. There's more to the story than is being reported... seems that Georgia is in the path of trade for European nations to obtain oil and natural gas from mid-east sources. Russia is the largest supplier of natural gas and second largest of oil. I posted this in the spinoff links earlier today.

600 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:24:13pm

Russian can and must act to end this crisis. Thank you.


So?! What are we going to do?!

That's it?

601 yma o hyd  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:24:17pm

Not a word about his intentions ...

602 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:24:21pm

What a lot of nothing from Bush.

603 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:24:33pm

re: #592 Wendya

President Bush just isn't a good public speaker.

* * *
So what you want BS beautifully spoken?

604 Wendya  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:24:49pm

re: #597 willowone

he wasn't, and i didnt hear anything concrete

Well, he is deeply concerned.

605 winston06  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:25:02pm

Russia is acting like Germany in 1938

606 Dianna  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:25:09pm

What? I just heard a door close. What does that mean?

And what did Bush's statement mean?

607 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:25:16pm

re: #602 Pvt Bin Jammin

What a lot of nothing from Bush.

Maybe....'walk quiet/ carry a big stick',
One can hope

608 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:25:18pm

re: #598 Dizzy26
i think he does better when it's from his soul

609 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:25:32pm

re: #584 buzzsawmonkey

True, not all elected governments are created equal. But one of the determinants of true democracy--or, better, a true republic--is that even if the #&!&@ other side wins, you don't rush to commit a coup, but wait until the next election and take the government back.

You are aware that the lefties in Spain had already tried to overthrow the freely elected rightwing governement of the República in October 1934, and that it was Franco who led the army column that quenched the revolt in Asturias with the help of the Moorish troops you detest so much, aren't you?

610 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:26:23pm

was that a call for UN or Nato, or?

611 Pvt Bin Jammin  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:26:38pm

re: #607 Dizzy26

One can hope, I suppose.

612 Dizzy26  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:27:09pm

re: #608 willowone

i think he does better when it's from his soul

Yep, and as a sober alky, that's always best. He has a good soul!

I hope he's got a big set of....... well, hope he's got that too!

613 alegrias  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:27:21pm

re: #609 A. van Hilten

You are aware that the lefties in Spain had already tried to overthrow the freely elected rightwing governement of the República in October 1934, and that it was Franco who led the army column that quenched the revolt in Asturias with the help of the Moorish troops you detest so much, aren't you?

* * *
Thank you for providing facts that explain why MILLIONS of Spaniards wanted the leftists & reds OUT of their country for CAUSE.

614 BingoBunny  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:28:20pm

I don't know if Georgia will exist in a week.. I hope the Russians will just cut them off from outside world and do some power negotiating that the Georgia government can accept.. but I suspect all of Georgia will be sucked back into Russia. The only way this can be stopped is NATO landing 100k peace keepers of it's own.. without Russian permission, and I don't see that happening at least closer to EU then Poland.

615 willowone  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:28:25pm

re: #612 Dizzy26
no i meant what he was strong about, which was his strongest in defense of america when it was clear.

616 Killer Tomato  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:28:47pm

re: #606 Dianna

I think what it means is that the U.S. just issued a strongly worded statement and in a day or so the UN will issue a strongly worded statement. And if you're in a position to get out of Georgia quickly, you should.

617 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:29:45pm
618 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:30:14pm

re: #531 buzzsawmonkey

Doesn't sound like misinformation to me. You have just confirmed that the "defender of Christian Spain" used Moorish troops--which is precisely what I said he did--to fight against actual Spaniards.

That he accepted Nazi aid is a matter of historical record. That he ran a dictatorship which brooked no opposition until he became feeble and handed over the baton to a member of the royal family is also a matter of historical record.

So where, pray, is this "misinformation?"

(1) The Franco dictatorship lessened it's control gradually and significantly in the post WWII period. I know that in the sixties, when my older brother was at U Salamanca, censorship was very light indeed. (He was rather shocked to find Marxist literature, etc, so openly and readily available.) By the early 70's, when I first visited Spain, you would not has guessed you were in an authoritarian country.
(2) Franco was a mean SOB.....and IMO a pompous ass...but he was not an ideologue and could adapt to circumstances extremely well. He totally distrusted political "dreamers" and never gave the Falange Party, which supported him, any real power.
He did hate democracy and would have avoided it if he could have. He was, however, a realist who prepared Spain well for the eventual shift. It was his right hand men who set up the democracy and made the transition.
(3) He was an army general, not a politician. He used crack "foreign legion" troops in his wars in N. Africa, BTW, long before the Civil War, and these troops were loyal to him personally.
In the Civil War, as many foreigners fought for the Republican side as fought for Franco. (The "Moors" were at least Spanish colonials, anyway.) The notion that Franco was leading an army of foreigners against an army of Christian Spaniards is absurd. (It was certainly not HIS army that burned churches and raped & murdered nuns.) He took help from Mussolini and Hitler, just as his opponents took help from Stalin.

Trying to put Franco into conventional ideological molds doesn't work, IMO. That he was absolutely brutal in his consolidation of power and could be a snotty POS I do not dispute. I might compare him to the Shah of Iran or to Pinochet, another originally non-political general. We are not dealing with a lovely man by any stretch, but what was the alternative?

I think Jeanne Kirkpatrick was right when she differentiated between authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. The former are not ideological and do not seek cultural revolutions; they will allow for economic freedom and do not leave a country in shambles (a la Cuba);they increasing levels of free speech/press; they can transition to democracy (Chile, Spain, Portugal, Taiwan, etc.)

619 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:30:18pm

re: #589 buzzsawmonkey

Move those goalposts! Move those goalposts!

Nope. I'm not moving the goalposts.

You claimed that it was somehow unbecoming of Franco to use Moroccan (i.e. Muslim) colonial troops during the Civil War to impose his vision of a Christian Spain. I'm showing you how utterly deluded you are.

Unless, of course, you're willing to decry as well the use of Moroccan colonial troops by the French against the Germans at Monte Cassino.

620 DistantThunder  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:31:03pm

I would be surprised if Georgia's president didn't have reason to be confident in dealing with the Russians - did he get a nod from someone on our side?

621 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:31:43pm

re: #613 alegrias

* * *
Thank you for providing facts that explain why MILLIONS of Spaniards wanted the leftists & reds OUT of their country for CAUSE.


Don't need to tell me. They tried to pull a 'Paracuellos' on my family members as well. Not once, but twice.

622 Killer Tomato  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:32:13pm

Thread above on the President's comments...

623 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:33:06pm
624 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:34:43pm
625 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:36:00pm

re: #617 buzzsawmonkey

Someone, I forget who, said during the Cold War that "Franco may be a bastard, but he's our bastard.".

Actually, that phrase supposedly originated with Batista in Cuba. 'Our man in Havana' is more than the title of a (very lousy) film, you know. And it wasn't a "bastard" but a SOB.

At least that's what I have heard/read.

626 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:36:27pm
627 nyc redneck  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:38:07pm

i'm looking at an old grade school type globe my brother bought at a yard sale last wk.
we have figured out the date by looking at the countries. israel is on it but rhodesia is still called rhodesia. so somewhere btw l947 and l961(? zimbabwe.)
anyway russia is a huge and massive country. none of the current little endangered republics exist on this globe. as russia extends from alaska all those thousands of miles west.
i'm sure poootin has a map that probably looks like this globe. he thinks they still own everything w/ in the old boundaries. and he wants it back.

628 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:38:30pm

re: #543 buzzsawmonkey

I am not arguing that Franco was a sweet-smelling lily.
Far from it.

The Loyalists were being heavily funded by Moscow before Spain even established the Republic, BTW. (They were not about to let the anarchists, rather than Marxists, lead Spain into the glorious Utopian horizons that they knew would open up with liberal democracy.)

629 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:41:19pm

re: #623 buzzsawmonkey

Which, of course, then entitled him to go for the entire country, right?

Actually, Fco. Franco didn't join the coup (which had been orchestrated by a military junta) almost until the break of hostilities, which were directly triggered by the murder of opposition (rightwing) MP José Calvo Sotelo by policemen linked to the Socialist party (that's the same Socialist party Mr. Zapatero belongs to).

630 Wm T Sherman  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:44:30pm

What we have here is the Cold War conundrum, redux. Can't have a direct US/Russian military conflict without a substantial risk of having it spiral out of control to a nuclear exhange; even a non-nuclear all out war could do more damage than we are willing to risk. The war is thus pursued through a series of smaller conflicts in client states at the edge of each superpower's sphere of influence.

What do you think of this:

Since other former Soviet republics and former Eastern European satellites are next on the Putin intimidation and hegemony-assertion checklist, start reinforcing them now, bigtime.

I don't buy this argument that Western alignment with Georgia is the root cause of this invasion.

Russia will always find an excuse. The outrageous lies that Russia is putting out now about this conflict are all the evidence that is needed to rach that conclusion. Georgia is the right target at the right time, from Putin's point of view. Ethnic Russians in Ossetia, grab the fuel pipelines, fight a small adversary that even the Russian military can crush.

By the way, is anybody else reminded of Uncle Adoph's deep concern for ethnic Germans in the Sudetanland in 1938?

631 Dolce  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:45:27pm

What I really hate most is not so much what the Russians are doing (which I loathe) because they've been doing it since 1916. What I hate most is our attitude in the West, especially the attitude of our intellectuals. Although we may not be able to do much against them because of political/strategic/economic reasons etc, we may well (and should) express our utter contempt for Russian behaviour. Where are all the people who are ready to organise petitions,signature collections, manifestoes etcetera? Where are the demonstrations, the placards, the candles, the wakes and so on? Where are the peace flags?

632 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:46:34pm
633 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:46:35pm

re: #624 buzzsawmonkey

No, you're not. You are equating two entirely different things. Explain, please, how the use of Muslim troops to secure a "Christian Spain" is in any way equivalent to the use of Muslim troops as mere troops.

Now you're moving the goalposts.

The legitimacy of the use of those troops doesn't depend on the goal of imposing a Christian Spain. Franco had no legitimacy to take up arms against the leftist government. Period. The fact that Franco used colonial troops as well as Peninsular troops is irrelevant. Why do you keep focusing on the colonial troops as if it was a crime? The crime was toppling the government, not using colonial troops to do so.

634 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:48:23pm

re: #573 buzzsawmonkey

When, pray, did the British, French, Portuguese, Dutch, or Belgian governments use their colonial troops to overthrow the elected governments of their own countries?

Hello?


You think that the Republic would have been a nice liberal democracy.
Moscow agreed.
They thought (IMO correctly) that it would be just
like the nice liberal democracy in Russia after the Czar was deposed.
Easy pickings.

635 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:51:25pm

(in late, haven't skimmed the thread yet)

“Saakashvili must go.”

If this quote is correct (and it appears to be so) then I set aside my opinion from two threads prior and say it's time for a military demonstration of support for Georgia. This does indeed cross a line.

636 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:51:30pm
637 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:53:28pm

re: #540 Pvt Bin Jammin

ROTFL...I am glad you could hear it. We had friends drop in for awhile, and I missed it!

638 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:54:25pm

re: #560 Robert O.

Was it a tattoo?

/He has no soul.

639 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:54:27pm
640 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:56:23pm

re: #618 wolfie

(1) The Franco dictatorship lessened it's control gradually and significantly in the post WWII period. I know that in the sixties, when my older brother was at U Salamanca, censorship was very light indeed. (He was rather shocked to find Marxist literature, etc, so openly and readily available.) By the early 70's, when I first visited Spain, you would not has guessed you were in an authoritarian country.
(2) Franco was a mean SOB.....and IMO a pompous ass...but he was not an ideologue and could adapt to circumstances extremely well. He totally distrusted political "dreamers" and never gave the Falange Party, which supported him, any real power.
He did hate democracy and would have avoided it if he could have. He was, however, a realist who prepared Spain well for the eventual shift. It was his right hand men who set up the democracy and made the transition.
(3) He was an army general, not a politician. He used crack "foreign legion" troops in his wars in N. Africa, BTW, long before the Civil War, and these troops were loyal to him personally.
In the Civil War, as many foreigners fought for the Republican side as fought for Franco. (The "Moors" were at least Spanish colonials, anyway.) The notion that Franco was leading an army of foreigners against an army of Christian Spaniards is absurd. (It was certainly not HIS army that burned churches and raped & murdered nuns.) He took help from Mussolini and Hitler, just as his opponents took help from Stalin.

Trying to put Franco into conventional ideological molds doesn't work, IMO. That he was absolutely brutal in his consolidation of power and could be a snotty POS I do not dispute. I might compare him to the Shah of Iran or to Pinochet, another originally non-political general. We are not dealing with a lovely man by any stretch, but what was the alternative?

I think Jeanne Kirkpatrick was right when she differentiated between authoritarian and totalitarian regimes. The former are not ideological and do not seek cultural revolutions; they will allow for economic freedom and do not leave a country in shambles (a la Cuba);they increasing levels of free speech/press; they can transition to democracy (Chile, Spain, Portugal, Taiwan, etc.)

The Stalinists really hated the POUM and other anarchist groups so badly that a bloodbath erupted in Barcelona in March 1937 when the communists finally decided to wipe out the competition on their own side. The kidnapped the leader of the POUM, Andrés Nin, and tortured him before skinning him alive. All courtesy of the NKVD.

641 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:56:52pm

re: #579 buzzsawmonkey

If Franco's sole support had been Moors and Nazis, he wouldn't have entered the fray, much less won it. The tragedy, the horror, of the Spanish Civil War was that the Spaniards were very evenly divided in sympathies. As it too often happens, the minority in the middle, the decent republicans, were just plain screwed.

642 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 2:59:01pm

re: #636 buzzsawmonkey

You are clearly misreading what I have written.

Van Hilten referred to the use of colonial troops by various imperialist nations. I have merely pointed out that none of these imperial powers--other than Spain--ever used their colonial troops to overthrow their domestic governments.

That is a statement of fact which has nothing whatever to do with the nature or quality of the Spanish government.

But why do you take issue with the notion that Franco used colonial troops to do his dirty job? Are you equating them with mercenaries, per the current progressive propaganda?

643 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:01:31pm

Lou Dobbs right now is discussing how Fwance wants to water down any "truce" (in the current war between Russia and Georgia). Good discussion going on. "If the powers of Europe don't have the sense to act as they should -- that should be their responsibility, not ours." "Guarantee nothing will come out of Europe." I agree -- the BBC is prostrate and screaming "Walk over us! Walk over us!" that's their stance. Don't ever look for a "tough stance" from the bend-over-backwards crowd.

644 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:02:05pm
645 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:03:34pm

On the night of July 12, 1936, a lieutenant in the Republican Assault Guards and active member of the Socialist Party, José Castillo, was murdered in Madrid by gunmen of far right, Carlist members of the Tercio de Requetés of Madrid, according to the historian Ian Gibson, or Falangists according to other authors like Paul Preston. In the first hours of the next day, July 13, members of the Assault Guards, Juventudes Socialistas Unificadas and the captain of Civil Guard Fernando Condés, went to Calvo Sotelo's house, took him in front of his wife and children showing a fake arrest warrant, and later killed him in a police truck. His corpse was later left in the cemetery. According to all later investigations the perpetrator of the murder was a socialist gunman, Luis Cuenca, who was known as bodyguard of the Socialist Party leader Indalecio Prieto.

In the days following, the Spanish Government, apparently unwilling of both asserting itself in front of its own police and to deny the general perception of that it was somehow involved in the shocking murder, only undertook a routine investigation that never reached any conclusion. This only accelerated the preparations for a military revolt that was being developed since the electoral triumph of the Popular Front in the month of February. These preparations lead to the uprising of the army of Africa in Melilla on July 17, 1936 that, under the assumed command of Generals Emilio Mola, Francisco Franco and José Sanjurjo, marked the beginning of the Spanish Civil War.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

646 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:03:51pm

At least the United States wants to talk tough, etc. The Euroweenies? forget it...Can expect nothing from the Europens, they've lost any abillity to stand upright.

647 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:05:23pm

re: #644 buzzsawmonkey

Are you reading-impaired, or merely irony-impaired?

Using Moorish--i.e., Muslim--troops to establish/create/defend a "Christian Spain" is an irony that even you should be able to grasp. Not only is that an oxymoron in itself, it is even more so in light of the Reconquista.

As far as "the current progressive propaganda" is concerned, I'm afraid I'm not up on that. Perhaps you could share.

Ah, I see. So it was irony? In the same sense that Franco receiving "Nazi aid" was ironic, too?

You have a weird sense of irony.

648 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:05:39pm

re: #584 buzzsawmonkey

True, not all elected governments are created equal. But one of the determinants of true democracy--or, better, a true republic--is that even if the #&!&@ other side wins, you don't rush to commit a coup, but wait until the next election and take the government back.

Once again, the Stalinists came in after the domestic Spanish establishment of a leftist government. And on the historical evidence, the Stalinists came in/were invited in because the government was looking to counterbalance Franco's Nazi backers. It may be an uncomfortable thing to realize that Franco created the problem he "solved," but nobody's offered any evidence to the contrary here.

I'm not link-savvy, but I can give you book titles.
Even before the fall of the USSR and their archives were more open, there was plenty of info that Moscow was heavily involved in Spain and preparing for a takeover........and above all, they were planning for an immediate civil war against the Spanish anarchists.

That Franco sought help from Mussolini and Hitler and happily accepted it is not in dispute. That he would have done so even if Stalin had not been aiding the left I personally do not doubt.
IOW, I am NOT defending Franco's character by saying the poor boy HAD to take the Fascists help.
But neither will I defend the Stalinists by saying the poor dears only took aid from the USSR because they HAD to.

649 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:06:35pm
650 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:11:51pm

re: #649 buzzsawmonkey

You maintain that Franco did not receive Nazi aid?

Revise history much?

That's a nice strawman there. Tell me, were your comments about Nazi aid ironic in the sense your comments about the Moorish troops were?

'Cause it would seem to me that none of them were ironic.

651 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:15:03pm

re: #617 buzzsawmonkey

Someone, I forget who, said during the Cold War that "Franco may be a bastard, but he's our bastard." That about sums it up; Franco was no angel; he was a bloody-handed punk who licked the boots of Adolf Hitler. That he was also an ally after WWII--for a price--is a matter of historical record. He may have been the best POS available at the time, but that does not mean he was not a POS.

I'm not sure that "bastard" statement was originally made about Franco, but it should have been!
Franco was very bloody-handed, but he was no punk.
He did not lick Hitler's boots, BTW. Franco drove Hitler crazy because he was singularly unimpressed and uninimidated by der Fuhrer. Franco, was, as they said, the only man to keep Hitler waiting.
(Franco was definitely an admirer of Mussolini, OTOH.)
Above all, he was a general who never let his mind wander too far outside the military box.
And, yes, he was definitely an opportunist of the first rank.

652 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:15:42pm

re: #646 J.S.

At least the United States wants to talk tough, etc. The Euroweenies? forget it...Can expect nothing from the Europens, they've lost any abillity to stand upright.

Sure. Tough talk will make Putin crap his pants.

653 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:15:43pm

re: #649 buzzsawmonkey

Take a look at these best buds..I cannot bear to look a second time.

Seeing is believing, though. There are more videos of them together.

654 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:19:17pm

re: #651 wolfie

I'm not sure that "bastard" statement was originally made about Franco, but it should have been!
Franco was very bloody-handed, but he was no punk.
He did not lick Hitler's boots, BTW. Franco drove Hitler crazy because he was singularly unimpressed and uninimidated by der Fuhrer. Franco, was, as they said, the only man to keep Hitler waiting.
(Franco was definitely an admirer of Mussolini, OTOH.)
Above all, he was a general who never let his mind wander too far outside the military box.
And, yes, he was definitely an opportunist of the first rank.

And he had quite a sense of chutzpah, too. He's quoted as saying: "do like me, don't get involved in politics."

655 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:23:32pm
656 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:26:31pm

re: #655 buzzsawmonkey

I increasingly confused as to what you are claiming here. I am sure that the Soviets had tentacles in Spain prior to the Republic. How strong those tentacles were, I do not pretend to know; my impression, however, is that they were not particularly strong until after the indigenous Spanish leftists took power--after which the Soviets, as is their wont, purged those they felt they could not dominate.

My point is merely that even if, with the benefit of hindsight, we have reason to be glad that Franco emerged as the victor of that sorry conflict, he was very far from being the savior of Western civilization he was touted as being. Despite the efforts of fascist apologist van Hilten, there is no blinking the fact that Franco came to power through the benefit of Nazi assistance, and that even if his regime was a more tolerant fascism (closer in that regard to Mussolini's Italy than to the racist madness of the Nazis), it was still an ugly regime which we can be glad has been consigned to the dustbin of history.

Where has "fascist apologist van Hilten" ever questioned the fact that Franco received Nazi and Fascist assistance, Mr. Monkey?

Are you completely out of your mind or what?

657 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:27:29pm
658 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:27:45pm

re: #649 buzzsawmonkey

(Not a reply to that post!)
I don't think I disagree THAT much w/ you re Franco, buzz.
I think your main point, that he was no angel is crucial.

We can say Spain got lucky to get Franco when it could have gotten much worse. But that's not saying it was good to get him.

659 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:28:44pm
660 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:31:02pm

re: #658 wolfie

Are you old enough to remember SNL's Chevy Chase's Weekend Update: 'Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead'?

661 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:31:40pm
662 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:32:09pm

re: #657 buzzsawmonkey

BTW, if it is appropriate to recognize Vlaams Belang and other fascist-leaning outfits for what they are, and to hold them at arm's length or further rather than embrace them as allies in the fight against Islamism--as I think it is--then it is certainly appropriate to recognize Franco's Nazi and Fascist connections, and to de-idolize him accordingly.

No matter what fascist apologist van Hilten may say.

And where have I excused or condoned what Franco did (let alone claiming that his side did not receive nazi and fascist assistance)?

It seems to me that when somenone dares to counter your drivel with facts you go ballistic — and start calling people names.

663 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:34:17pm
664 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:34:24pm

re: #650 A. van Hilten

That's a nice strawman there. Tell me, were your comments about Nazi aid ironic in the sense your comments about the Moorish troops were?

'Cause it would seem to me that none of them were ironic.

Is this comment an apology of Fascism? Calling you out on your own words is an apology of Fascism?

665 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:36:32pm
666 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:36:54pm

re: #661 buzzsawmonkey

imo, there's a lot more (ahem, shall i say "difficulties"?) going on with a certain individual...(I consider a troll -- disrupting threads, vulgarities, off topic remarks, ad hominems, etc., and also the projections going on here...).

667 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:38:51pm
668 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:41:09pm

re: #667 buzzsawmonkey

I would also note that certain individuals know exactly what gets under the skin of others, then uses it to get a "rise" (very adolescent.)

669 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:41:26pm

re: #663 buzzsawmonkey

No, I am calling you a fascist apologist because, in your #647, you appear to deny that Franco relied on aid from the Nazi and Italian fascist regimes.

You may either admit this well-known historical fact, or stand self-damned as a fascist apologist.

Your choice.

I have never denied the obvious — who do you think lent Franco the Ju-52s to airlift the African army from Morocco to the Peninsula?

Actually, it was you who tried to change the meaning of his comments (claiming now that the Moorish troops comments were "ironic"). Sorry, but the "irony" in those comments was lost on everyone here.

670 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:44:05pm

My favorite blogstalker Reine.de.tout is here again silently playing the downding game.

Talk about childish obsessions.

671 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:44:09pm

re: #668 J.S.

Noted on any thread the troll has trolled.

672 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:44:17pm
673 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:45:17pm

re: #670 A. van Hilten

My favorite blogstalker Reine.de.tout is here again silently playing the downding game.

Talk about childish obsessions.

I would engage, but since you and Medaura have decided I am too stupid for words, then I am simply enjoying the discussion.

674 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:45:44pm

re: #655 buzzsawmonkey

I increasingly confused as to what you are claiming here. I am sure that the Soviets had tentacles in Spain prior to the Republic. How strong those tentacles were, I do not pretend to know; my impression, however, is that they were not particularly strong until after the indigenous Spanish leftists took power--after which the Soviets, as is their wont, purged those they felt they could not dominate.

My point is merely that even if, with the benefit of hindsight, we have reason to be glad that Franco emerged as the victor of that sorry conflict, he was very far from being the savior of Western civilization he was touted as being. Despite the efforts of fascist apologist van Hilten, there is no blinking the fact that Franco came to power through the benefit of Nazi assistance, and that even if his regime was a more tolerant fascism (closer in that regard to Mussolini's Italy than to the racist madness of the Nazis), it was still an ugly regime which we can be glad has been consigned to the dustbin of history.

I'm in basic agreement with you.

I think the source of our (superficial) disagreement is that I am far more convinced that the Republic was a sitting duck for the Stalinists (probable) or for more ideological fascists who would have allied w/ the Axis (possible)
Liberal democracy didn't stand a chance.

675 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:46:39pm

re: #672 buzzsawmonkey

The irony of Franco using Muslim troops to conquer Spain in the interest of establishing a "Christian Spain" is lost on nobody--save perhaps yourself.

An irony in itself.

A double irony in light of the Reconquista.

Well, aparently, it was lost on Wolfie as well:

In the Civil War, as many foreigners fought for the Republican side as fought for Franco. (The "Moors" were at least Spanish colonials, anyway.) The notion that Franco was leading an army of foreigners against an army of Christian Spaniards is absurd. (It was certainly not HIS army that burned churches and raped & murdered nuns.) He took help from Mussolini and Hitler, just as his opponents took help from Stalin.

676 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:47:13pm
677 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:48:51pm

"Franco came to power on the strength of Nazi military aid."

C'mon, you've had your way, Mr "Reform Judaism is full of shit". Happy now?

678 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:50:01pm
679 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:51:49pm
680 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:52:09pm

Called "Operation Fire Magic" (Unternehmen Feuerzauber), German military aid to the Spanish Nationalists rebels began with a request for assistance dispatched by Spanish General Francisco Franco. This was received by German dictator Adolf Hitler on July 22, 1936, five days after the rebellion began on 17 July.[1] Hitler immediately called Hermann Göring, then Minister for the Economy, and Field Marshal General (Generalfeldmarschall) Werner von Blomberg, to plan methods of support for the Nationalists.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

German military aid to the Spanish Nationalists (sic) rebels began with a request for assistance dispatched by Spanish General Francisco Franco.

681 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:53:05pm

re: #660 NY Nana

Are you old enough to remember SNL's Chevy Chase's Weekend Update: 'Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead'?

Yes, and it was hilarious!
I also remember in the early seventies that whats-her-name......that psychic woman (Dixon?) always would predicted the death of Franco in her new year's prophecies! Sooner or later she was right!

682 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 3:56:58pm

re: #678 buzzsawmonkey

Try writing it without the quotes.

Sorry, I don't take orders from bigots.

683 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:00:05pm

re: #673 reine.de.tout

Take it from whence it comes, and be flattered.

684 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:01:19pm
685 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:03:07pm

re: #675 A. van Hilten

Yep. I was responding to the implication that one side used "foreigners" more than the other.

I kind of missed buzzsaw's other point, that Franco's use of Muslim troops in defense of "Christian Spain" was a supreme irony.

Back then, it might not have seemed so, given that Islam was not seen as a threat to anyone or anything.
But today, it seems odd.

686 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:04:02pm

re: #684 buzzsawmonkey

Your posts indicate otherwise.

If you are still babbling about my disdain for Reform Judaism, you are welcome to offer something which you believe proves me wrong.

Why this so rankles you, of course, remains a mystery, since your posts in the past have suggested that you yourself are not merely a flaming bigot, but an ignoramus, where Jewish belief is concerned.

It rankles me because it smacks of religious bigotry, pure and simple.

687 J.S.  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:04:20pm

Right. Herr Fascist wants to have an avenue of plausible deniability, as in "But, but, but, I was just quoting an article from Wikipedia! That's not what I ever thought! ! That's not my opinion! The Nazis were Wunderkind, as I've repeatedly explained! Honest!"

688 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:04:47pm

re: #683 NY Nana

Take it from whence it comes, and be flattered.

I am indeed.

689 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:04:49pm

re: #681 wolfie

Yes, and it was hilarious!
I also remember in the early seventies that whats-her-name......that psychic woman (Dixon?) always would predicted the death of Franco in her new year's prophecies! Sooner or later she was right!

Can't remember the name, but remember the prediction....if we wait long enough...

Chevy Chase made it a catch phrase...I loved it.

690 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:05:59pm

re: #687 J.S.

Right. Herr Fascist wants to have an avenue of plausible deniability, as in "But, but, but, I was just quoting an article from Wikipedia! That's not what I ever thought! ! That's not my opinion! The Nazis were Wunderkind, as I've repeatedly explained! Honest!"

WTF are you talking about?

691 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:07:28pm

re: #689 NY Nana

Can't remember the name, but remember the prediction....if we wait long enough...

Chevy Chase made it a catch phrase...I loved it.

Jeanne Dixon

692 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:09:09pm
693 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:11:40pm

re: #692 buzzsawmonkey

Bullshit.

You have displayed religious bigotry on this board. I have merely stated what is clearly true; that Reform "Judaism" corresponds in no way to the Jewish religion, save in the appropriation of some extraneous trappings.

You are free to offer arguments, rather than unsupported statements of your opinion, in response. But for now, you are merely akin to a Muslim crying "Islamophobia!" because you've been denied a footbath to which you are not entitled.

Buzzsaw - Mr. VanHilten and Medaura appear to be great friends. Perhaps Mr. VanHilten subscribes to Medaura's Freedom in a Godless Society

A quote, indicative I think, of the tolerance we could expect:

The inane treatment of Judeo-Christianity as a proxy for Western Civilization should be first to go. Tying the moral foundations of the American Nation with cultural archetypes of prehistoric Biblical Jews, or with those of devout Europeans emulating them is beyond preposterous. The dogmatic authoritarianism inherent in Judeo-Christianity and its ubiquitous tradition of framing Man as a wretched sinful creature fallen from grace since birth, are antithetical to a societal infrastructure built around individual freedom and dignity.

694 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:11:47pm

re: #691 reine.de.tout

Jeanne Dixon

Yes! She was so funny without meaning to be.

/Wonder if she used a Magic 8 Ball?

695 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:14:22pm

re: #693 reine.de.tout

Those 2 deserve each other. Whoops! Doesn't Medaura's husband also post here?

/She could hurt herself falling off of her high horse.

696 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:14:30pm

re: #694 NY Nana

Yes! She was so funny without meaning to be.

/Wonder if she used a Magic 8 Ball?

I don't know . . .but I have a pink magic 8 ball!

697 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:14:47pm

re: #695 NY Nana

Those 2 deserve each other. Whoops! Doesn't Medaura's husband also post here?

/She could hurt herself falling off of her high horse.

Yes, MPH.

698 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:16:30pm

re: #693 reine.de.tout

Of course, you realize that I don't necessarily agree with everything whe writes regarding religion just because I happen to agree with her (and Totten's) stance on the Balkans, don't you?

699 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:16:53pm

re: #696 reine.de.tout

I don't know . . .but I have a pink magic 8 ball!

A pink one? I ought to look for one for my 8-year old granddaughter, as she would really have fun with one.

/Far better a Magic 8 Ball than Miley Cyrus/Hanna Montana.

700 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:17:05pm
701 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:17:44pm

re: #698 A. van Hilten

Of course, you realize that I don't necessarily agree with everything whe writes regarding religion just because I happen to agree with her (and Totten's) stance on the Balkans, don't you?

Yes, which is why I used the "perhaps".

But you do seem to be very angry with people who profess to be people of faith, for no other reason than they are religious people.

702 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:17:45pm

re: #697 reine.de.tout

;)

703 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:19:11pm

re: #701 reine.de.tout

Excellent observation.

704 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:19:54pm

re: #701 reine.de.tout

Yes, which is why I used the "perhaps".

But you do seem to be very angry with people who profess to be people of faith, for no other reason than they are religious people.


Nope. I'm very, very angry with people who profess to be people of faith and then act immorally.

705 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:20:38pm

re: #704 A. van Hilten

Nope. I'm very, very angry with people who profess to be people of faith and then act immorally.

By whose definition of what is moral?

706 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:20:56pm
707 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:22:43pm

re: #704 A. van Hilten

Nope. I'm very, very angry with people who profess to be people of faith and then act immorally.

For example, crossposting less-than-charitable impressions about LGF at other blogs or insisting that atehists, by and large, have no morals.

708 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:24:21pm

re: #705 reine.de.tout

By whose definition of what is moral?

By the very definition of the religious dogmas those people profess to abide by.

709 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:24:21pm

re: #704 A. van Hilten

Nope. I'm very, very angry with people who profess to be people of faith and then act immorally.

And, it appears mere disagreement with you and your friend Medaura is considered to be "immoral".

I asked, courteously, to be informed the other night, on an issue. Instead of taking the opportunity to inform me, you and Medaura both simply began calling names, claiming to be "bored" with my "inanities".

710 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:25:33pm

re: #707 A. van Hilten

For example, crossposting less-than-charitable impressions about LGF at other blogs or insisting that atehists, by and large, have no morals.

I have not cross-posted anywhere. I am registered at HotAir, and at Michelle Malkin.

It is entirely possible for an atheist to have morals; but not all atheists necessarily have morals.

711 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:26:49pm
712 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:26:58pm

re: #708 A. van Hilten

By the very definition of the religious dogmas those people profess to abide by.

What is it you think you know about other people?

713 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:27:44pm

re: #709 reine.de.tout

And, it appears mere disagreement with you and your friend Medaura is considered to be "immoral".

I asked, courteously, to be informed the other night, on an issue. Instead of taking the opportunity to inform me, you and Medaura both simply began calling names, claiming to be "bored" with my "inanities".

Funny, I remember YOU updinging a post by someone who called Kilgore Trout a "rotten fish" and Medaura the "Wicked Witch of Tirana."

Oh, yes, it was Colonel Panik.

714 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:28:18pm

re: #713 A. van Hilten

Funny, I remember YOU updinging a post by someone who called Kilgore Trout a "rotten fish" and Medaura the "Wicked Witch of Tirana."

Oh, yes, it was Colonel Panik.

No, I downdinged by mistake and told the Colonel I meant to upding.

It was funny.

715 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:28:24pm

re: #711 buzzsawmonkey

You presume yourself to hold knowledge of which you are blatantly ignorant.

Don't do unto others...

716 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:29:16pm
717 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:29:58pm
718 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:30:24pm

re: #710 reine.de.tout

Take a look at her profile..very full of herself.

719 A. van Hilten  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:33:10pm

re: #717 buzzsawmonkey

Can't you finish the quote, Golden Fool?

Name calling much, Mr. Monkey?

720 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:34:23pm

re: #716 buzzsawmonkey

Here we go again--it's Personality Parade!

Anything for this clown to avoid actually laying it on the line.

Yes. He has not yet addressed the fact that I asked him and Medaura, courteously, to inform me, and their next comments to me were expressions of their "boredom" with my "stupidity" and "inability to comprehend".

Instead of addressing tht, he throws out the fact that I updinged an insult to them, after they had been insulting me all night, and tries to say that's immoral?

It was me, and Medaura and Van Hilten teaming up against me.

Real fair "fight" that was.

There are much bigger immoralities in life than a stupid insult. A person who has the strength of personal integrity is not going to be bothered by a piddling little stupid insult.

721 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:35:03pm

re: #718 NY Nana

Take a look at her profile..very full of herself.

LOL! Yes, I've seen that before. She used to have more photos, though.

722 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:35:45pm

Damn AvH...when aren't you arguing with someone. I see civil discourse on a daily basis on LGF, but most of the people I see posting here find like subjects to discuss. You're in an argument every time I hit a thread...why is this? Did your mother bottle feed you or what. Why sir, can't you have a civil agreement with someone? WTF?

723 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:36:44pm
724 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:37:45pm

re: #722 jorline

Yo! good to see you.

725 NY Nana  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:38:31pm

re: #720 reine.de.tout

Damn. I just dug the troll up. Can anyone please dig it down?

Dinner time...

726 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:39:14pm

re: #724 reine.de.tout

Yo! good to see you.

{reine}

727 quickjustice  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:40:22pm

And I say Putin and Medveyev (sp?) must go. Take that!

728 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:40:46pm

I'm trying to get caught up on the thread...looks like the same old crap.

729 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:42:05pm

re: #725 NY Nana

Damn. I just dug the troll up. Can anyone please dig it down?

Dinner time...

got it covered.

730 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:42:34pm

re: #728 jorline

I'm trying to get caught up on the thread...looks like the same old crap.

It is. But this time . . .he's all alone.
hee-hee.

731 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:46:07pm
732 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:47:28pm

re: #731 buzzsawmonkey

It appears that A. van Hilten has, for the moment, left the building.

He cut and ran? Awwwwww. . . I don't think he ever answered you, did he?

733 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:47:50pm

re: #723 buzzsawmonkey

No, not much. Not at all, in fact, when stacked against your own profanities.

In the meantime, I note you are striving mightily to avoid stating any basis for your groundless assertions of "bigotry."


He doesn't have any basis for them.
"Bigotry" requires obstinate refusal to consider all sides, a sort of voluntary ignorance of a subject while upholding an opinion on it.

If this AVH has been around long enough to sling names, I should think he would know YOU are not ignorant when it comes to Judaism.

734 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:48:17pm
735 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:49:12pm

re: #730 reine.de.tout

It is. But this time . . .he's all alone.
hee-hee.

What's with all of the arguing? This guy has a burr up his butt 24/7, name a time he has been on a thread where he didn't get into an argument that went on and on and on......

Most people enjoy conversing with others...most people enjoy positive human contact....what went wrong at his house?

Getting ready to eat dinner with the family and help my daughter with homework. I will catch up with you later and be safe.

736 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:49:44pm

re: #735 jorline

What's with all of the arguing? This guy has a burr up his butt 24/7, name a time he has been on a thread where he didn't get into an argument that went on and on and on......

Most people enjoy conversing with others...most people enjoy positive human contact....what went wrong at his house?

Getting ready to eat dinner with the family and help my daughter with homework. I will catch up with you later and be safe.

You too . . .

737 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:50:13pm

re: #731 buzzsawmonkey

It appears that A. van Hilten has, for the moment, left the building.

Hell, he'll come back and talk to himself for hours after the thread id dead.

738 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:50:32pm
739 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:51:54pm

re: #731 buzzsawmonkey

Who is this guy, anyway?

Was he the guy who was trying to stir up trouble by posting things ex-LGFers had written when we all said we didn't want to read them?

Also, buzz, you called him a "fascist apologist." You would not say that w/o reason. Can you enlighten me?

740 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:52:53pm

re: #737 jorline

Hell, he'll come back and talk to himself for hours after the thread id is dead.

pimf

741 jorline  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:55:22pm

re: #739 wolfie

Who is this guy, anyway?

Was he the guy who was trying to stir up trouble by posting things ex-LGFers had written when we all said we didn't want to read them?

Also, buzz, you called him a "fascist apologist." You would not say that w/o reason. Can you enlighten me?

AvH loves to search other sites and post what LGFer's are posting. He took great pleasure in mama wingers and ma sands demise.

742 wolfie  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:56:59pm

re: #741 jorline

What a charming fellow.
Just charming.

I shall ignore him.

743 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 4:59:58pm
744 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 5:01:41pm

re: #741 jorline

AvH loves to search other sites and post what LGFer's are posting. He took great pleasure in mama wingers and ma sands demise.

He also takes great pleasure in accusing people (like, for instance, moi) of posting anti-LGF stuff on other sites, but he cannot come up with anything, because, well, because I haven't done so.

Doesn't stop him from throwing out those accusations, though . . .

745 reine.de.tout  Mon, Aug 11, 2008 5:18:52pm

re: #738 buzzsawmonkey

It is kind of you to say so.

I am opinionated, certainly. And not as knowledgeable as I should be, by my own standards. But not, I think, ignorant--and certainly not when compared with what I have seen of van Hilten's postings.

Mr. Buzzsamonkey, imo, you have proven yourself to be very knowledgeable, and able to come to logical conclusions. I won't say I would follow you anywhere, but anything you say, I have found, is important to read, and carries a great deal of credibility, imo.

746 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 1:06:48am

re: #743 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, he was the fellow who was importing off-site posts a few days ago in order to stir things up.

As far as the "fascist apologist" thing is concerned, I was referring to his refusal to acknowledge/admit that Franco came to power on the strength of Nazi--and, to a lesser extent, Italian fascist--aid. He was, furthermore, denying/downplaying the obvious irony of Franco using Moorish--i.e., Muslim--troops on behalf of establishing/preserving "Christian Spain."

You and I were able to discuss the alloyed good and bad of the Loyalist and Nationalist sides. Van Hilten, by refusing to even admit Franco's Nazi connections except obliquely, was acting as a fascist apologist.

Yes, I guess that's why I was quoting the Wikipedia article on the Condor Legion, because I was, obviously, "refusing to even admit Franco's Nazi connections except obliquely:"

re: #680 A. van Hilten

Called "Operation Fire Magic" (Unternehmen Feuerzauber), German military aid to the Spanish Nationalists rebels began with a request for assistance dispatched by Spanish General Francisco Franco. This was received by German dictator Adolf Hitler on July 22, 1936, five days after the rebellion began on 17 July.[1] Hitler immediately called Hermann Göring, then Minister for the Economy, and Field Marshal General (Generalfeldmarschall) Werner von Blomberg, to plan methods of support for the Nationalists.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

German military aid to the Spanish Nationalists (sic) rebels began with a request for assistance dispatched by Spanish General Francisco Franco.

Mr. Monkey's yarmulke is a little too tight for him to reason properly, apparently.

BTW, Franco also received military support from one Benito Mussolini, in case you are actually interested in the Spanish Civil War, Mr. Magna Cum Laude Ignoramus:

The Corps of Volunteer Troops (Corpo Truppe Volontarie, or CTV) was an Italian expeditionary force which was sent to Spain to support General Francisco Franco and the Spanish Nationalist forces during the Spanish Civil War. The CVT was commanded by Mario Roatta, Ettore Bastico, Mario Berti, and Gastone Gambara.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

You're obviously ignorant of Spanish History, but somehow feel entitled to lecture those who have studied it.

BTW, Charles, can you please clarify if it is now reputable to smear other posters by accusing them of being "fascist apologists", as one commenter has repeatedly done in this thread?

747 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 1:11:53am

re: #730 reine.de.tout

It is. But this time . . .he's all alone.
hee-hee.

You obviously need your friends' assistance to gang up on me. Too bad some of them got the axe recently for being less-than-truthful about their professed love for LGF.

748 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 1:13:28am

re: #732 reine.de.tout

He cut and ran? Awwwwww. . . I don't think he ever answered you, did he?

Nope. Didn't cut and run. I went to bed because I live in a different time zome, Ms. Groupthink.

749 BlueCanuck  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 1:19:57am

re: #747 A. van Hilten

re: #748 A. van Hilten

Why sir must you continuely snipe at people. For some reason I don't think you are as on good terms with stinky or Charles as you say you are. Most of the times that you seem to post is late at night and on most dead threads. BTW we only gang up on possible trolls, and you are looking more and more like one.

750 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 1:32:51am

re: #749 BlueCanuck

re: #748 A. van Hilten

Why sir must you continuely snipe at people. For some reason I don't think you are as on good terms with stinky or Charles as you say you are. Most of the times that you seem to post is late at night and on most dead threads. BTW we only gang up on possible trolls, and you are looking more and more like one.

What part of "I live in a different time zome" don't you get? And, yes, Charles can (and will) ban me when he feels like it because this is his blog.

751 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 1:33:36am

Oops! That would be "a different time zone."

752 BlueCanuck  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 1:38:32am

re: #750 A. van Hilten

Yeah, I got your different time "zome" comment. I just find it hilarious that you tend to go to threads that are hours dead and ding and post away. Most people will stick to recent threads, or active threads. This thread for example wasn't active until you returned. As for me I am a night owl.

/btw I did catch your correction, I just find it funny you misspelled it twice.

753 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 5:58:48am

re: #747 A. van Hilten

You obviously need your friends' assistance to gang up on me.

Which is, of course, reprehensible behavior, unless it's you and Medaura ganging up on someone.

Too bad some of them got the axe recently for being less-than-truthful about their professed love for LGF.

Please point to anything, anywhere, where I have said anything that is anti-LGF. You cannot find anything because I have never posted anything like that.

Please point to anything, anywhere, where you believe you have identified any "friends" of mine who are now no longer welcome here.

Please. You have accused me a number of times; surely you have something to prove your "case".

754 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 8:11:58am

re: #753 reine.de.tout

Please point to anything, anywhere, where I have said anything that is anti-LGF. You cannot find anything because I have never posted anything like that.

Please point to anything, anywhere, where you believe you have identified any "friends" of mine who are now no longer welcome here.

Please. You have accused me a number of times; surely you have something to prove your "case".

No, I have never accused you of bashing LGF at any other blogs, because I haven't seen any evidence of that. Please quote the comment(s) where I did, so that I may apologize to you in case what you claim is true.

What about this? Are you also going to deny that you held Mama Winger in high esteem?

MamaWinger - know that you are highly thought of and folks just won't take to you being treated rudely, including some of us who disagree with you about other things.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ooops!

Sure, my beloved Mama Winger, "you are highly thought of and folks [i.e. reine.de.tout and the rest of the cliqué] just won't take to you being treated rudely."

755 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 9:08:31am

re: #754 A. van Hilten

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Ooops!

Sure, my beloved Mama Winger, "you are highly thought of and folks [i.e. reine.de.tout and the rest of the cliqué] just won't take to you being treated rudely."

And your point . . . ?

756 A. van Hilten  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 9:20:11am

re: #755 reine.de.tout

And your point . . . ?

That you seem to have the same reckless disregard for the truth as John 'Sickly Phony' Ewards:

Please point to anything, anywhere, where you believe you have identified any "friends" of mine who are now no longer welcome here.

757 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 12, 2008 9:35:32am

re: #756 A. van Hilten

That you seem to have the same reckless disregard for the truth as John 'Sickly Phony' Ewards:

Please point to anything, anywhere, where you believe you have identified any "friends" of mine who are now no longer welcome here.

I wrote that to MW before she had been banned, before I knew she was posting badly about LGF. When I found out, I later posted this to you:

McCain ad suggests obama is the antichrist
763 reine.de.tout 8/08/2008 12:49:29 pm PDT

Who are these "friends" you're talking about? I don't have any personal knowledge of anyone here. What is "One Cosmos"? Why do you think you know so much about me?

People who have issues with LGF or Charles Johnson shouldn't be here. People who are registered here who go elsewhere and say vile things about LGF or Charles Johnson should be blocked.

I can believe what I just wrote, and also believe that you have a vile manner - and you do.

Now, if I just go ahead and say "I am in awe, o master, of your obviously superior intellect and morals", will you leave me alone? Is that what it will take - recognition of you as all-wonderful?


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