Whew, made it. These late-night stairs are hard on the ole' knees.

No good can come from this..

re: #1 ggt

Hi ggt!

"I got proof because I believe"

Heh.

My favorite line:

"The world was created on a bet from G_d and L. Ron Hubbarb."

/We are now officially the enemies of L. Ron Cruz, I mean Tom Hubbard, I mean, oh never mind.

Wow, I can't get YouTube to play tonight. Something's up.

It loads, but it won't play.

My favorite line:

"Made the fossils just to tease us..."

oh, oh, ahh, ahhh, hahahahahahaha

re: #3 lone_wolf_in_illinois

hey lone! sup?

Oh, fuck that with a great big FUCK THAT.

Oh, never mind. Restarted Firefox.

It's late enough for this.....
eddie izzard vs. creationism
(language warning)

Now this is the kind of teacher we need out there

re: #8 Bogeyfre

My favorite line:

"Made the fossils just to tease us..."

Hi Bogeyfre,
Are you from the 'Lou, or just a Cards fan?

re: #10 ggt

hey lone! sup?

Not much, just enjoying this weather! Couldn't be better! Had a wonderful day at the Botanical Gardens Saturday to get some ideas for my back yard. How 'bout you?

More Science Songs:

Mandelbrot Set

Contrast this entertaining "lecture" with the nutjob in ohio who burned a cross into a student's arm

ha nice vid

I don't know a single person who is a biblical literalist like that guy was singing about. I bet he doesn't either.

re: #16 lone_wolf_in_illinois

Just got back from the hinterlands of Lake Superior and going to the Dunes tomorrow to visit friends.

It was a very pleasant day today wasn't it?

A bard for our times.

Some people will now feel mocked.

I, however, thought it was pretty damned funny.

re: #21 ggt

Very much so. I love the UP, mainly Curtis and the painted rocks area. Good fishing up there!

Entertaining, but I think he sometimes tries to hard to get a joke from every line, and some of the humor seems forced as a consequence. I'd give it a C+

re: #15 Palandine

Both...

oops! "to hard" should be "too hard"
PIMF

For the longest time I had taken LGF off my RSS feed (sorry)

Posts like this make me feel really, really, really guilty for doing that.

You can all say how funny he is but I think he's a dickhead. Look at the rest of his crapola out there. And BTW he sucks at the guitar.

If you look at his catalog he is pure moonbat. And with that stupid ass song he is just trying to paint those who disagree with him on the moonbat agenda that they must be el retardos who bible thump when they aren't disagreeing with him.

Hi.

hi MM :)

re: #27 Bogeyfre

Both...

Pleased to meet you. I believe I'm the only Republican in the city.

You want to see evolution in action? Check out the equestrian events at the Olympics - just gawk at the Cross Country Eventing. Good Lord! What symmetry between man/woman and beast! Beauty, poetry, ballet, athletics, etc., etc. Look at the teamwork. Look at the competitor spirit. My goodness, what beauty!

re: #21 ggt

Just got back from the hinterlands of Lake Superior and going to the Dunes tomorrow to visit friends.

It was a very pleasant day today wasn't it?

Unless you're Georgian.....

"Some of you skeptics might have a blind faith in science, empirical inquiry, observable reality, and other myths"

Zing! To bad that many have said the same in all seriousness, and not in jest.

Good night yall. See you on the flip side.

re: #29 Jonathan Hohensee

I'm just beginning to try to figure out rss feeds on my newer laptop. I feel soooooo OLD. My digital camera is dying and I'm afraid to buy a new one. I think I'll have to stick to the disposable digital cameras one can buy. I can probably figure out how to work them.

I had PJM as my main page on my old laptop and I can't for the life of me figure out how to get back on my new one.

grrrrrrrr

re: #20 Mich-again

I don't know a single person who is a biblical literalist like that guy was singing about. I bet he doesn't either.

I do.
And they're miserable SOBs, all of them.

re: #29 Jonathan Hohensee

For the longest time I had taken LGF off my RSS feed (sorry)

Posts like this make me feel really, really, really guilty for doing that.

Oh ye of little faith.

re: #20 Mich-again

I don't know a single person who is a biblical literalist like that guy was singing about. I bet he doesn't either.

I could name at least a dozen people who have commented at LGF who are exactly the kind of Biblical literalists he's singing about.

re: #33 Palandine

Pleased to meet you. I believe I'm the only Republican in the city.

Nice to find someone here from my area.

If you live in the City of St Louis you might be. I was born in the city, I currently live in St Charles there are more of "us" out here.

re: #41 Charles

I could name at least a dozen people who have commented at LGF who are exactly the kind of Biblical literalists he's singing about.

IME, they're more annoying in person.

Roy Zimmerman's "Ode to W. Don't make fun of the crippled boy" Oh thats so funny.

re: #20 Mich-again

I don't know a single person who is a biblical literalist like that guy was singing about. I bet he doesn't either.

Unfortunately I do, and the one I know really well is my mom.

/they are out there, some are REALLY out there.

re: #41 Charles

I could name at least a dozen people who have commented at LGF who are exactly the kind of Biblical literalists he's singing about.

I don't know any people who post here.

I know someone who is a Jehovah's Witness and claims the Bible validates Evolution. She is actually a really cool person and seems to know the Bible pretty well.

I don't inquire much when she talks, but I thought it was interesting.

A boring clip I've linked to countless times.....
chaiya chaiya
/The hips that haunt my dreams
//Namaste. y'all.

re: #20 Mich-again

I don't know a single person who is a biblical literalist like that guy was singing about. I bet he doesn't either.

I do as well. The discussions I've had with them about this subject still remain some the scariest moments in my life.

re: #24 Sharmuta

Some people will now feel mocked.

Some people are bound and determined to find offense in just about anything they can so they have an excuse to play the victim, just as there are those that are bound and determined to see the Evil One^TM in everything that does not strictly adhere to their ideological doctrine.

re: #42 Bogeyfre

Nice to find someone here from my area.

If you live in the City of St Louis you might be. I was born in the city, I currently live in St Charles there are more of "us" out here.

I love the city. Someone's gotta hold down the fort. :)

/couldn't handle that crazy commute, either.
//but I do love Cabela's and Bass Pro

re: #46 Mich-again

I don't know any people who post here.

Neither do I, (in the biblical sense).

But there are most certainly biblical literalists who do post here when the evolution threads come up.

Incidentally, I prefer the term "fundamentalists", with my definition being individuals who believe in the literal truth of their particular scripture. (A looser definition would be someone with strict adherence to a set of formal/fundamental principles).

I know some very loyal Southern Baptist Democrats, (certainly in Obama's camp) from work who happen to be very much into reading and rereading the Bible, although I don't know them to go so far as to think the Bible is a literal story of creation. Its always, "well to God a day could be a million years" type of stuff.

I wonder if Roy is going to write a song making fun of them?

All I can say is ...arrrrrrrrggggh. I realized a long time ago that I don't like this kind of parody--even if it skewers something I like to see skewered. Even Tom Lehrer. Just not my cup of tea, so I'll go off and sulk--or go to bed, which I should do on east coast time.

re: #52 looking closely

But there are most certainly biblical literalists who do post here when the evolution threads come up.

But you don't know them at all. You know what someone hiding behind a nic typed into a keyboard. That doesn't mean much really.

Aha! I found it. Some nice pickin' here.

Chris Smither plays "Origin of Species".

re: #48 Killgore Trout

Boring my butt, that video is a truck load of kick ass.

sigh, my kids are currently trying to convince to me that even though they were in bed at 9pm, that means they could play and talk and generally stay up for another hour or so.

Oh, I can't resist adding, once one of the trio (Peter Paul and Mary) did a parody of ...well, it's called Christ, the magic Christian, I think, and it's to the tune of...well, you know. Puff.

re: #58 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

sigh, my kids are currently trying to convince to me that even though they were in bed at 9pm, that means they could play and talk and generally stay up for another hour or so.

Oh, that sounds SOOOOO familiar.

re: #60 katemaclaren

Oh, that sounds SOOOOO familiar.

2 girls, 5 and 6.

"Get to bed."
"We are in bed!"

re: #55 Mich-again

But you don't know them at all. You know what someone hiding behind a nic typed into a keyboard. That doesn't mean much really.

I didn't say I knew them (in fact I said the opposite).
I said they post here.

If you think these posters may be insincere (or fakes), perhaps you are right, but they are pretty good mimics of the people like this I've met in the real world.

Biblical literalists galore.

"... cause I'm still alive..."! HA!
"Arma-get-your-homework done" HA!

I'm curious how this would have sounded with a banjo instead...

The Bible, one of the great books of the Western canon. Read it like literature, not literalllllnessss.

re: #51 Palandine

Wife and I both work in St Charles so no crazy commute for us.

We have considered buying a loft in downtown but the politics, taxes, crime and lack of services keep us out.

Keep up the good fight....

re: #63 Charles

Gadzooks!

Does Fred Phelps of the Westboro Baptist Church consider himself as a Biblical literalist?

re: #57 Slumbering Behemoth

I agree, I thoroughly enjoyed it.

re: #63 Charles

It Catholic school, it was explained that the Bible was first transmitted orally, then written in an ancient language, then translated then edited by various church edicts. As a result, it couldn't be take literally.

Except the part about G-d/Jesus loving us.

Made sense to me and I was quite young at the time.

re: #63 Charles

I notice they had a feature "The Wonders of Geology". on the Devil's Tower in Wyoming. Oh, the irony.

Curiously, using the (Google) search tool at the Answers in Genesis site, returned nothing for either "Fred Phelps" or "Westboro" as search terms.

I have to agree with what Michigan posted earlier:

You can all say how funny he is but I think he's a dickhead. Look at the rest of his crapola out there. And BTW he sucks at the guitar.

If you look at his catalog he is pure moonbat. And with that stupid ass song he is just trying to paint those who disagree with him on the moonbat agenda that they must be el retardos who bible thump when they aren't disagreeing with him.

Tolerance works both ways as does respect. While I don't think this video is Christian bashing-- it is the sos (usually liberal) viewpoint that feels the need to put down others to make themselves feel important/superior.

/I think it's tacky

I don't dare click on their "History Revealed" section.

..sssss.
;-)
If you have read Ovid and the Norse mythologies, this just adds to the understanding of the way of understanding. In the context of no context.
;-)
I have NOT read the Bible--but some selected parts which are interesting and often correlate with many pre-Biblical stories very easily. Creation myths, for example--not to mention the rest of the Promethean myth. I like the parables and see them as very instructive and well-crafted. I liked the one about the vinyard owner. I NEVER believed in the literal interpretation of the Bible, but then I have many students who can't see any of the complexities of poetry like Milton's or stories such as Frankenstein. They enjoy the stories. The stories resonate with something deep within the human psyche. They might not understand, but neither the stories or those who believe them should be ridiculed, in my humble opinion. A child can't grasp certain implications and abstractions, but we don't condemn them. I know there are even deeper levels of meaning in all myths--and that makes me tolerant, because I know that I certainly have miles to go before some epiphany. So, I'd like to avoid falling into the habit of ridicule--which to me seems to risk succumbing to that most fatal of flaws, hubris.

re: #70 ggt

It Catholic school, it was explained that the Bible was first transmitted orally, then written in an ancient language, then translated then edited by various church edicts. As a result, it couldn't be take literally.

Except the part about G-d/Jesus loving us.

Made sense to me and I was quite young at the time.

What I find particularly ironic is that many of these fundamentalists accept as their canon only the King James version of the bible.

Its an artful translation to be sure, but not the most scholarly or accurate one.

Another problem with literalism is that there isn't one definitive text of "the" Bible. While the Old Testament has been well-preserved (in large part because of the Jews doctrine of absolutely faithful letter-for-letter copy), the New Testament exists only in a variety of documents that don't all correspond exactly to one another.

This leads to obvious problems with literalism (but only if you lack adequate faith).

re: #73 twincitiesgirl

I agree with you. Tacky.

This is good - it reminds me of Tom Lehrer - but some of his other videos on YouTube are pretty ickily uber-Liberal. :P

Creation of men:

Someone has to strike a pose
And bear the weight of well-tailored clothes ...
And that is why the Lord created men!

};)     [A hommage to our Biblical literalists here ... ]

... and for the people in the other camp ...

}:)     [And there's a museum in it!]

re: #30 Mich-again

Good observation, Mich.
I thought the song rather clever, but there was something that put me a bit off....... I guess it's that sanctimony that is so typical of moonbats instructing the unwashed.

re: #39 looking closely

I do.
And they're miserable SOBs, all of them.

I know many young-earth literalists. Most are wonderful folks, some are run-of-the-mill, some are cranky and goofy. None of the ones I happen to know is a miserable SOB.

re: #82 wolfie

Of course, I'm sure they must be very wicked.
And bent on the destruction of Western Civilization.
And as Zimriel would say, waiting for a Russian Pinochet to establish the Great Catholic/Orthodox Empire in their trailer park! :)

re: #73 twincitiesgirl I agree.

re: #76 looking closelyAnd how many translations of the Iliad are from the original by Homer? ZERO. But some people follow those stories closer than the Ten Commandments!

Please, the mockery of Faith places everyone at the risk of anarchy. I do consider myself a literalist of the Bible teachings. I am also a Professional Engineer, PE. Many hours of science and math study lead me to conclude that the chart of Chemical Elements is the greatest physical evidence that there is a Creator. I do not follow the Buddhist idea of matter continuum. Creation must have started just as say my life started. Each had a starting point. Entropy demands that it be so.

Lister destroyed the idea of spontaneous mutation to bring life. Mendel showed us that a designer is needed to mutate life and manipulate the characteristics of life to form repeated results. Life is not an accident waiting to happen. The elements move in a dance not created by man but used by man. See Genesis 1:28 about controlling the earth, or Genesis 2 about naming things. We still name things. we have not stopped.

As for the "Origin of Species," too many long earthers place too much risk in it. If it is true, then where is the reward for service to "that one man, a soldier, a firefighter, a volunteer on a 9/11 flight who laid down his life for another?"

Jesus cursed the fig tree and it died that hour. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.

Nite All. I take my dings in the morning.

re: #84 ASU86PE

Please, the mockery of Faith places everyone at the risk of anarchy.

Bwah! I linked a Mo'toon. The world shall descend into bloody anarchy!

Get. A. Grip.

F* 'A'!
Why do we never get stuff this good here in yourope?

ah, I'm late as usual ... nevermind.

re: #84 ASU86PE

You seem to be sincere in your beliefs, so I ding you down with respect. But you're still wrong.

re: #73 twincitiesgirl

Humor is a tricky thing. I don't mind some "poking fun" at benign religion as long as it is not really meanspirited. I've had a good laugh at Seinfeld's depiction of the gossipy rabbi and the neurotic mohel, and I've laughed at the self-righteous Ned Flanders on the Simpsons. We've all certainly enjoyed making fun of the dark side of Islam, which is not benign and therefore does not deserve respect. Somehow, though, this is just feeling meanspirited to me, maybe in light of what I've observed and experienced on the evolution threads lately. It's just disheartening and disallusioning, and moreso because I know that for simply requesting that lizards please treat each other better, someone will see fit to hurl another insult.

re: #50 Slumbering Behemoth

Some people are bound and determined to find offense in just about anything they can so they have an excuse to play the victim, just as there are those that are bound and determined to see the Evil One^TM in everything that does not strictly adhere to their ideological doctrine.

So you're saying creationists shouldn't feel offended by this, and if they are, they are just imagining things and are playing the victim? Generally when I think someone deserves an insult and I deliver it, I expect them to feel insulted. I'm pretty sure Charles intended for creationists to feel mocked by this video. The least you can do is just be honest and say "Yes, we are mocking you, because you are mockworthy in our estimation."

All those people who were saying that creationists like those lampooned in the video don't exist? I present to you ASU86PE

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Lister just taught us to sterilize things in order to avoid surgical infection. Mendel's work complements Darwin's, by demonstrating how both dominant and recessive traits may be passed on to subsequent generations.

Anyone who calls folks who think this place has been here more than 6000 years 'long earthers' cannot be intentionally ridiculed by others more than he inadvertently ridicules himself. Ethics and self-sacrifice are to be found all over the planet, and independent of any particular religion. They are found in Buddhist, Taoist and Confician societies, and those religions are nontheistic.

But then again, if 86 means what I suspect it does, the kid is only 22, and has a lot of learning to do.

And I have three fig bushes in my back yard, and they are all hale, hearty and healthy.

re: #41 Charles

I could name at least a dozen people who have commented at LGF who are exactly the kind of Biblical literalists he's singing about.

Since no one likes to be ridiculed, especially when they thought they were among friends, I imagine you won't be seeing those kinds of creationist comments on your blog much longer.

re: #90 Salamantis

"Anyone who calls folks who think this place has been here more than 6000 years 'long earthers' cannot be intentionally ridiculed by others more than he inadvertently ridicules himself."

Then let their self-ridicule speak for itself; say nothing and preserve your own dignity.

I know hasidim and haredim who interpret certain things from the bible very literally. I can't agree with them; I tend to see many biblical stories metaphorically, though the truths are no less valuable. Many of these ultra-orthodox (though not all) are creationists, too. And many times I think to myself "how could you possibly believe this?" But they aren't hurting anyone with their beliefs. Not only are they not hurting anyone -- they do a lot of good in the world. If I were sick, they would bring me food. If I were incapacitated and needed some help around the house, they would send over one of their daughters, and never expect anything in return. Every week, they give to charity, even if they can barely buy food to feed their own family, because that is what Judaism teaches. These are good people, though you may think they are intellectually simple or absurd.

Likewise, many fundamentalists Christian are busy doing a lot of good works around the earth. They are at the forefront of redeeming sex slaves in Africa and Asia. They are at the forefront of so many humanitarian efforts. Do they deserve to be mocked?

Stand up for your beliefs and speak out in defense of them. Be vigilant if you believe someone's beliefs are actually threatening you or harming society. That is what you should do. But do it without ridiculing others.

re: #92 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Then let their self-ridicule speak for itself; say nothing and preserve your own dignity.

But Jewess- then could we not say the same for any other belief? Be it islam, or unicorns, or obamessiah worship? We should be careful calling for censorship.

Respectfully, Sharmuta

re: #93 Jennifer Crawford

I was so excited about finally getting registered at LGF. Since then, most of what I've seen is your nearly psychotic mockery of the Bible and those who believe in it. I don't have a problem with your believing in whatever you want (or not believing in anything higher than yourself), but I do have a problem with being bombarded with it every time I log onto what I once considered a very informative conservative political site.

See ya.

I can't tell whether you're a literalist or not but much of the mocking is directed at those deeply programed to accept that flavor of nonsense. For example, It rather hard to understand why one would believe that their god flooded the entire world a few thousand years ago while leaving no verifiable geological evidence of such a global catastrophe while at the same time leaving convincing geological and fossil evidence in support of evolution.

In general, with few exceptions, posters here are mocking the fiction not those who have been victimized by the snake peddlers brainwashing. There is always hope that they may, through education, adopt a belief system that is compatible with scientific reality and elementary logic.

C'mon people! Someone who describes people who accept the overwhelming empirical evidence that the planet has been here for approximately 4.6 billion years instead of just 6000 as 'long earthers?' Isn't that a measurement of distance rather than time? What's the opposite of that, huh? Short-earthers? And how short is your planet today? Shouldn't it be old-earthers and young-earthers instead? I mean, geez, you couldn't make this stuff up...

Plus, remember, these are the kinds of people who are busting a nut trying to get their personal creation mythologies taught to other peoples' kids in public high school science classes.

re: #98 Da Coyote

Methinks you're devoting entirely too much time to this silly subject. It doesn't appear that believing or not believing on the methods by which a biological object came into being will affect the object. Those who believe too deeply will obviously flunk biology, so what's the diff? Flunkies from science become businessmen or politicians - and - no one listens to those types anyway.

Having these IDiots getting public school districts to foist their sectarian religious dogmas off as fact in public high school science classes messes with the minds and future career choices of the kids of everybody who sends theirs to public high schools, and costs our country well-educated scientific professionals, which threatens our scientific and technological status in the world - and that status is one of the major things that allows us to possess and wield global influence well beyond our numbers, and protects us against being hobbled and hamstrung by our enemies. If it takes ridicule to inoculate public servants against knuckling under to them and voting to pass their teach-myth-as-science religiopolitical agendas, I'm all for it. No one can rationally or reasonably claim that the patently and transparently ridiculous should be immune from ridicule.

re: #85 Slumbering Behemoth
I am Christian. I responded in a sober manner, Tacky and Tasteless Butt.

re: #97 Salamantis And the evidence for the Origin of Species can be found exactly where? Name the place and time to go and I'll meet you there.

re: #94 Sharmuta

But Jewess- then could we not say the same for any other belief? Be it islam, or unicorns, or obamessiah worship? We should be careful calling for censorship.

Respectfully, Sharmuta

Censorship is imposed. Good judgment which calls for restraint in one's speech is internally motivated. By these definitions, I am not calling for the censorship of anyone.

Islam is not benign. I think I mentioned that a distinction should be made between malignant beliefs and benign beliefs. But even with Muslims, I would not belittle practices which are not bad, such as wearing a scarf, or giving money to (an actual) charity.

It's important to consider the dignity of other people, particularly those with whom you share common values and important goals. I don't denigrate Christians in public or in private, though in private I might share with my friends that I don't understand why Christians adopted certain beliefs which make no sense to me. I put aside the things that are different and embrace the things that we share.

Obama is not our friend, and he is not hanging out on the board with us.

The mocking has not been confined to creationists.

Better to just state plainly and firmly, "I don't believe ID is science, and I will work to keep it out of science class." There is no need to humiliate anyone to accomplish your goal.

re: #94 Sharmuta

We should be careful calling for censorship.

Does Charles know you feel this way? Because there is an awful lot of censorship that goes on here.

re: #101 American Jewess In Jerusalem

But Jewess- ID is also not benign. It is seeking to upend not just evolution, but all of science. This turns back the clock on rational, enlightenment thinking. It would, in fact, lead to the very cultural darkness we see in islamic countries. That is not the America I would want for my children, nor any American child. That is not the world I would want for any person any where. Science, reason, democracy- all of the fruits of the Enlightenment would be lost if ID were to succeed.

I understand what you're saying, and I personally have done my best to remain civil in discussions on this topic, though sometimes I've failed. But I've come to believe we here at LGF are expected to be able to take a few slings and arrows that may come our way. It is a tough room. The only thing we can really control is ourselves. To think otherwise is to join the mindset of the left.

re: #102 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Does Charles know you feel this way? Because there is an awful lot of censorship that goes on here.

Then please explain how you are able to make these inane comments repeatedly.

re: #103 Sharmuta

But Jewess- ID is also not benign.

To add to all you pointed out, the IDers are in bed with Islamic radicals, a groups AJIJ agrees isn't benign. How can you associate with a dangerous group and still be benign?

This isn't a tea party. We're not here to sit with our ankles crossed, admiring the garden with our pinkies out. This is essentially a private "salon" where we are free (thank you!) to hash these things out. Everyone who comes here should be ready, willing and able to defend their philosophy.

You may not think it polite, but ridicule of ideas is an essential aspect of the progress of this country from it's very beginnings starting with King George.

re: #102 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Jewess- I can't say if he knows. Perhaps if he reads that comment....

But I think if we were to say that one belief system is above criticism here that would be intellectually hypocritical. If we were to say this for a wider public, one beyond this blog, then that would be dangerous. We already have islam trying to achieve that end. They must not succeed, and I don't think we should be hypocrites about it either. Personally- there is nothing anyone here can say that will shake my faith.

re: #105 mossley

To add to all you pointed out, the IDers are in bed with Islamic radicals, a groups AJIJ agrees isn't benign. How can you associate with a dangerous group and still be benign?

Excellent point.

re: #103 Sharmuta

Wow, Sharmuta, I can't believe I actually agree with everything you said.

The thing is, you won't change anyone's beliefs by ridicule. We have a democracy, and separation of church and state, so we have the tools to protect science class. Focus your attack on the legal actions of creationists, and not on the beliefs of individuals here.

Consider also how actions of the left, pushing their agenda on schools, have led to the mobilization of the far right, who feel the need to push back. When my son was in third grade, he came home with a list of rules, one of which stated "there will be no homophobic language or behavior allowed." He asked me what homosexuality was. I was enraged to have my son basically assaulted with this language and ideology without so much as a warning. Mind you, we are not an anti-gay family. We had homosexual friends at our shabbos table many times, and couples too, so there was no pretending that they weren't gay. But after that note from school, I was alerted to a big problem, and that furthered my identity with Christians and people on the right. I hope you will also be vigilant in keeping inappropriate stuff from the left out of our schools, too.

re: #107 Sharmuta

Jewess- I can't say if he knows. Perhaps if he reads that comment....

But I think if we were to say that one belief system is above criticism here that would be intellectually hypocritical. If we were to say this for a wider public, one beyond this blog, then that would be dangerous. We already have islam trying to achieve that end. They must not succeed, and I don't think we should be hypocrites about it either. Personally- there is nothing anyone here can say that will shake my faith.

I am not saying a belief system is above criticism. I am saying that friends are above ridicule.

re: #109 American Jewess In Jerusalem

I hope you don't mind if I get a little chuckle out of that opening line.

If you had been engaged on any of the previous ID threads, you would know that I have reasoned with people and linked to various sites pointing out the agenda of ID and the discovery institute. I did so on the thread in which you became troubled about the discourse, in fact. When the people I've done this with have returned, and told me they now understand the problem, I not only feel satisfied, I feel like I've done something to further enlightenment. Charles has done it for me (on more than a couple issues) and it's rewarding to take that and pass it on to others.

As far as leftist indoctrination- I agree with you, but that is not the focus of these threads. As I stated on the DI Russia Blog thread downstairs last night, Allan Bloom postulated in his book The Closing of the American Mind that the natural sciences would be immune from the effects of moral relativism due to it's strict adherence to evidence and facts to reach a truthful conclusion. ID seeks to upend all of that and make science just as prone to multiple Truths as other branches of learning. We cannot allow this to happen because it is in science that our children can learn the tools to combat the moral relativism around them by learning how to analyze data and reach a conclusion. I think it is by defeating ID that we can strike a blow at leftist indoctrination as well.

Not more whining.

re: #106 claire

This isn't a tea party. We're not here to sit with our ankles crossed, admiring the garden with our pinkies out. This is essentially a private "salon" where we are free (thank you!) to hash these things out. Everyone who comes here should be ready, willing and able to defend their philosophy.

You may not think it polite, but ridicule of ideas is an essential aspect of the progress of this country from it's very beginnings starting with King George.

Exactly right.

Note: people who post angry messages about how insulted they feel, and how they're never coming back, will have their accounts blocked. This is necessary because many times these people simply can't resist coming back and being insulting and nasty.

re: #92 American Jewess In Jerusalem

Then let their self-ridicule speak for itself; say nothing and preserve your own dignity.

You do not have the right to demand that other people stop discussing these issues. If it makes you so uncomfortable that you just want everyone to stop talking about it, don't read these threads. Because we are NOT going to stop discussing it.

re: #106 claire

This isn't a tea party. We're not here to sit with our ankles crossed, admiring the garden with our pinkies out. This is essentially a private "salon" where we are free (thank you!) to hash these things out. Everyone who comes here should be ready, willing and able to defend their philosophy.

You may not think it polite, but ridicule of ideas is an essential aspect of the progress of this country from it's very beginnings starting with King George.

Having lurked here for quite a while before finding an open registration, your description of LGF as a "salon" is just how I viewed it. Though people become friends here, the main purpose for my joining was to partake in the hashing out, understanding, and refining of ideas. Perhaps I'll even be able to contribute something worthy of the best of these discussions (instead of up-ding cheerleading for the comments I wished I said)!

re: #116 scottishbuzzsaw

Having lurked here for quite a while before finding an open registration, your description of LGF as a "salon" is just how I viewed it. Though people become friends here, the main purpose for my joining was to partake in the hashing out, understanding, and refining of ideas. Perhaps I'll even be able to contribute something worthy of the best of these discussions (instead of up-ding cheerleading for the comments I wished I said)!

Indeed- I'm here for the discussion. Making friends is a perk.

/high five!

re: #117 Sharmuta

Good morning, Shar!

/high five!

re: #118 scottishbuzzsaw

Don't underestimate the power of the ding! I know that when I see other people agreeing with me through dings, it can really bolster me- spur me on to continue to drive my point home. And yeah- down dings can sting a little, but they cause me to think, and that's not so bad either.

re: #119 Sharmuta

Don't underestimate the power of the ding! I know that when I see other people agreeing with me through dings, it can really bolster me- spur me on to continue to drive my point home. And yeah- down dings can sting a little, but they cause me to think, and that's not so bad either.

Glad to hear that they're an encouragement. And I've already gotten my first down-dings, but that was my fault. Left off the sarc tag! Live and learn.

Comments that tell me not to post about evolution at LGF will be deleted.

It's going to be much harder for me to criticize left-wingers for whining about their hurt feelings, and for trying to shut down discussion of uncomfortable issues, now that it's become obvious they don't have a monopoly on this kind of emotional blackmail.

re: #89 American Jewess In Jerusalem

You're probably long gone, but I'll respond anyway.

So you're saying creationists shouldn't feel offended by this, and if they are, they are just imagining things and are playing the victim?

What I said was that there are some people that are bound and determined to find offense in anything they see so they have an excuse to play the victim. We've seen this time and again in the politically correct movement, most recently in the "We must not offend muslims with funny cartoons" mind set.

Generally when I think someone deserves an insult and I deliver it, I expect them to feel insulted. I'm pretty sure Charles intended for creationists to feel mocked by this video. The least you can do is just be honest and say "Yes, we are mocking you, because you are mockworthy in our estimation."

I'm pretty sure you're reading way to much into this, and that you might be a little paranoid as well.

re: #124 Slumbering Behemoth

I thought the video was funny. But that's just how evil I am, I guess.

re: #100 ASU86PE

I am Christian. I responded in a sober manner, Tacky and Tasteless Butt.

Tacky and Tasteless Butt? I don't think so. I was simply illustrating the insanity of your comment with my response.

I don't know what planet you're from, but the following brand of "chicken little" paranoia is hardly what passes for sober thought here on planet earth:

Please, the mockery of Faith places everyone at the risk of anarchy.

And SUVs will make the oceans boil within ten years.

Wow, close to six thousand comments yesterday. Looks like all the creationist wailing is just a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing. In fact, I think illuminating the past will only make the future brighter for LGF.

Got it? The bawling isn't going to work, IDers.

re: #125 Charles

Yeah, it's all fun and games until someone's sacred cow loses an eye is mocked.

re: #110 American Jewess In Jerusalem

I am not saying a belief system is above criticism. I am saying that friends are above ridicule.

There are numerous assumptions you are making in this comment, not the least is that everyone on this board is a friend.

The real point you seem to be missing is the complete lack of honesty and respect coming from the creationist side. The entire DI operation relies on deceiving the public by using lies and distortions to make their point. These threads have repeatedly shown the lies and distortions being used. The DI supporters cannot refute that these are lies, so they rely on a variety of underhanded tactics, including: lying, claiming to be a victim, distorting the comments made by others, claiming that anyone against creationism is attacking religion, using slurs like "leftwing atheist" against those who are in favor of scientific reason and a host of others.

Tell me why, exactly, people resorting to such tactics deserve respect? Respect is something that is earned, and anyone doing the above certainly haven't.

El Chupacabra caught on police dash-cam, coming up on Fox!

Looks like some crazy mutt to me, but anyway...

This guy is a douche and I found it offensive, while I don't think we should teach "creation science" in a classroom and we should teach the theory of evolution it isn't necessary to insult the christian religion like a bitter little tool in the manner this guy does. It wouldn't have surprised me if people had walked out of the room, I know I would have.

re: #129 mossley

Tell me why, exactly, people resorting to such tactics deserve respect? Respect is something that is earned, and anyone doing the above certainly haven't.

Preserving an agenda, or even a friendship, while sacrificing the truth usually has disastrous results.

re: #100 ASU86PE

re: #97 Salamantis And the evidence for the Origin of Species can be found exactly where? Name the place and time to go and I'll meet you there.

You won't have to go far. There's a whole universe of evidence out there, all around you. Just outside your front door.

Or rather, just outside the filters of your mind.

Not our fault if you choose to remain in a darkened room shutting your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears shouting "does not! does not!" over and over again.

re: #131 deanayer

This guy is a douche and I found it offensive, while I don't think we should teach "creation science" in a classroom and we should teach the theory of evolution it isn't necessary to insult the christian religion like a bitter little tool in the manner this guy does. It wouldn't have surprised me if people had walked out of the room, I know I would have.

Why is it not necessary? Religion is just a set of beliefs, of ideas. What happened to "God is not mocked"? Nowadays, this has been turned on its head by the precious little darlings that appear to make up most monotheist religions into "Waaaaaaa! how dare you insult my imaginary friend! Waaaaaaa!"

You can't help your skin colour or your sexuality - they're basically biologically immutable, but everything else is and should be fair game. Richard Dawkins' or even PZ Myers' politics may be totally moonbattish, but on the subject of science and rationality, they're infinitely preferable to fundamentalists masquerading as "conservatives".

What Charles (and Zombie and everyone else here on the side of reality) has rightly done here is drawn a line in the sand and stated, a la Captain Sheridan, "Get the Hell out of our Political Movement!". Because creationists will be the death of conservatism if we don't act.

re: #133 Morgoth

Not our fault if you choose to remain in a darkened room shutting your eyes, sticking your fingers in your ears shouting "does not! does not!" over and over again.

Some of them, I wish they would stay in a darkened room and out of sight. But their ignorance is all too out in the open. And they have children just to create more thralls to their Genesis mythology. And if that wasn't bad enough, they want everyone else's children shackled to this crumbling Monolith in time for the promised apocalypse.

re: #115 Charles

You do not have the right to demand that other people stop discussing these issues. If it makes you so uncomfortable that you just want everyone to stop talking about it, don't read these threads. Because we are NOT going to stop discussing it.

Of course not, and I wasn't demanding that. In the context of the sentence, by "say nothing," I meant "if your impulse is to ridicule, say nothing instead," not "don't ever discuss." I see that it didn't come across as I intended.

I am not uncomfortable with the discussion of evolution -- not at all. You are so convinced of that, but it's not true. It is not the subject matter that bothers me, but the manner of interacting. That's all it is, really. I've said plenty that supports fighting for what you believe in, which is, in this case, keeping the integrity of science education intact. I've also explained that the reason I haven't contributed to the topic is because I don't know enough, NOT because I'm secretly disapproving or squirming in pain.

I am, though, really surprised at your level of anger at me, particularly since I've been such a longtime poster who has always expressed appreciation for this blog, and for your effort in it.

re: #111 Sharmuta

Sharmuta, thanks for the friendly, and informative, back-and-forth. :-)

re: #136 American Jewess In Jerusalem
It is not the subject matter that bothers me, but the manner of interacting..

Would you be complaining equally vehemently if Charles went after David Irving or other Holocaust Deniers (who are the intellectual equivalents of Creationists) in an equally robust fashion?

Dangerous Irrational Bullshit is Dangerous Irrational Bullshit whither its dressed up in the robes of a mullah, a neo-nazi or the Discovery Institute. This is the point that you seem to miss, and fortunately many people here grasp.

Sheeee, what an insufferable nag!

re: #100 ASU86PE

I am Christian. I responded in a sober manner, Tacky and Tasteless Butt.

re: #97 Salamantis And the evidence for the Origin of Species can be found exactly where? Name the place and time to go and I'll meet you there.

The evidence is in every cell in every living thing on this planet. Check your own genome, and compare it with the genomes of great apes; you will discover overwhelming artifactual retroviral evidence of evolutionary divergence from common ancestors.

Or just go to Lenski's lab and have him run his e. coli through a macromutational evolution for you.

re: #138 Morgoth

Would you be complaining equally vehemently if Charles went after David Irving or other Holocaust Deniers (who are the intellectual equivalents of Creationists) in an equally robust fashion?

Dangerous Irrational Bullshit is Dangerous Irrational Bullshit whither its dressed up in the robes of a mullah, a neo-nazi or the Discovery Institute. This is the point that you seem to miss, and fortunately many people here grasp.

Creationists are not trying to murder me and my family.

re: #106 claire

This isn't a tea party. We're not here to sit with our ankles crossed, admiring the garden with our pinkies out. This is essentially a private "salon" where we are free (thank you!) to hash these things out. Everyone who comes here should be ready, willing and able to defend their philosophy.

You may not think it polite, but ridicule of ideas is an essential aspect of the progress of this country from it's very beginnings starting with King George.

The truth, by definition, can be neither slander nor insult. If some folks don't like how they're being described, but those descriptions are substantially accurate, they're not gonna prevent other people from telling uncomfortable truths about them, so if they want what's being said about them to change, they need to change what they have control over - themselves - so that such things are no longer true about them.

re: #141 american jewess in jerusalem

Creationists are not trying to murder me and my family.

Charles says he's not going to stop talking about this subject, so you might as well let it go.

re: #136 American Jewess In Jerusalem

It has been said by mothers the world over that if you can't say something nice about someone, don't say anything at all. But sometimes true but un-nice things need to be said. Like: These folks have forsaken logic and empirical evidence for the sake of a feelgood myth. Like: These folks think truth is a matter of popularity. Like: These folks aren't satisfied with morphing their own children into zombic memebot thralls, they have pod people designs on everybody else's kids, as well. Like: These people not only need to be stopped, for the good of all and sundry, these people need to have their ludicrous and nefarious agendas exposed and held up to public ridicule, for that is precisely how they can be stopped.

re: #136 American Jewess In Jerusalem

I am, though, really surprised at your level of anger at me, particularly since I've been such a longtime poster who has always expressed appreciation for this blog, and for your effort in it.

Do you think the fact that you've accused him unfairly of censoring opinions might have something to do with that?

re: #141 american jewess in jerusalem

Creationists are not trying to murder me and my family.

No, they just wanna turn you into good Christians. And they won't stop trying. For the sake of your immortal souls. Even in public school, for all the attending kids of all your Jewish friends in America, and for everybody else's kids, too.

Remember, the really hard-shelled fundamentalists who are supporting the state of Israel aren't supporting your religious vision so much as they are supporting theirs. Which includes prophecies like Armageddon, centered where you live, and your mass conversion to Christianity.

I, otoh, am Pagan, and support Israel because it is a constitutional democracy with guaranteed minority rights trying to survive and perdure without losing its own humanitarian soul in a tough, theocratic, totalitarian neighborhood.

re: #141 american jewess in jerusalem

Creationists are not trying to murder me and my family.

Murder you, no. Trying to actively return the world to the Dark Ages by attacking anyone and anything that relies on science and reason, yes.

re: #144 Salamantis

Now, Sal, you could have said that in a nicer way.

/Mommy mode off.

As a person of faith, I would say that the un-nice things are these: God gave us a brain to use for His glory, so willful ignorance in light of scientific evidence is anathema. There need not be any contradiction between faith and science, as our host has repeatedly stated, and neither can take the place of the other.

Regarding what started it all, we live in a pluralistic society which was founded on many freedoms: The freedom of religion for those of faith and freedom from religion for those who are not. Efforts are being made by DI/ID proponents to undermine not only scientific integrity but also the freedom of our fellow citizens to refrain from religious instruction masquerading as science. Had DI not developed the Wedge strategy with repeated attempts to impose it upon a secular institution, I doubt we'd be having this discussion at all.

If I understand the Founding Fathers correctly, it is freedom for all of us or it's freedom for none of us.

re: #148 scottishbuzzsaw

As a person of faith, I would say that the un-nice things are these: God gave us a brain to use for His glory, so willful ignorance in light of scientific evidence is anathema. There need not be any contradiction between faith and science, as our host has repeatedly stated, and neither can take the place of the other.

That's the thing that always struck me about creationists - they're not so much followers of Yahweh but rather followers of the KJV.

The very first line of this song "God made the world in seven days" shows that the songwriter hasn't even a slight acquaintance with the subject matter. The Bible says that God made the world in six days and rested on the seventh day. Sheesh!

re: #49 Bogeyfre

I do as well. The discussions I've had with them about this subject still remain some the scariest moments in my life.

I've personally spoken with two Messianic Christians/Israelite Nazarenes (aka Fundamentalist Christians) who are ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that everything was created in 6 days, the world is 6K years old and it's all fact because the bible says so. Nice people, but their views are bat guano crazy. I can relate to the discussions being spooky.

re: #141 american jewess in jerusalem

Creationists are not trying to murder me and my family.

Actually, Islamic Jihadists embrace creationism and reject science as well as their fundamentalist Christian counterparts. Even if they didn't, it's still a worthy topic of discussion, given that creationists are trying to drag the United States backwards in time, starting with public schools.