The typeface in the letter is wrong for that era.
:)

re: #1 abolitionist

The typeface in the letter is wrong for that era.
:)

Indeed! Something's suspicious here...
/

"This letter appears authentic to me."

Sincerely,

Dan Rather

lol religion

Nice "serial-killer" cut-and-paste of the lettering this time Dan. Crayola is good too, there are plenty in the rec-room after the noon medication.

Test it for dinosaur DNA, that should clinch it.

Heh.

LOL!

Can you make it throb, Charles?

Looks legit to me. Note the date...you all realize that the Neo-Nazi movement uses the number 18 to refer to Adolph Hitler (1st & 8th letters of the alphabet)?

Yup, this is rock solid. No use cooking up another "throbbing memo" this time Charles. It's a slam dunk!

/ ;P

re: #9 MandyManners

Can you make it throb, Charles?

Rotating title nomination!

Amazing that the letter survived all these years.

He wanted to endorse the other one first, but oh well......

re: #9 MandyManners

Ha! Figures you'ld beat me to the "throbbing" joke.

Where you been all day? There've been some trolls what needed your serious cussing out...

re: #11 CyanSnowHawk

Rotating title nomination!

Yowsers. I'm pulling my collar away from my neck on that one.

I believe.

Who knew that Darwin has such beautiful penmanship.

The precision is breathtaking.... hey, wait a second...

File this ( If True ) under: What the Fuc....

Oy vey:
Joss Stone is set to write and record a campaign song for US Democrat presidential hopeful Barack Obama.

According to The Sun, Stone was asked personally by Obama to write and record the song, which will be the theme song for his election campaign.

Obama is said to favour Stone, a huge star in the USA (she is?! — Ed.), because she has appeal to both black and white US citizens.

The newspaper quotes an anonymous source as saying: "She [Stone] believes he (Obama) is going to be the first black president and she is honoured to be a part of that."

[Link: exurbanleague.com...]

Barry, bubbi, baby if I were you I would stick with Motown!

re: #12 Split

Amazing that the letter survived all these years.

A cunning linguist would be able to show how the descendants of this letter actually evolved into the Dan Rather GWB letter.

re: #11 CyanSnowHawk

Can you make it throb, Charles?

Rotating title nomination!

Seconded - with furvor.

A smashing revelation with the impact of a hard-hitting Dan Rather expose`. I'm convertablized.

The writing is accurate, but the paper it's written on is forged.

I think we can call this news...

re: #20 Nevergiveup

because she has appeal to both black and white US citizens

I keep forgetting that all US citizens are either "black" or "white". Good thing I have politicians and pundits to remind me.

I doubt Herr Hitler would have been happy to know he evolved from a Ape instead of an Aryan.

Charles, you obviously flunked out of Creationist Math 101.

It goes like this:

Nazism = Godlessness
Darwinism = Godlessness
Q.E.D.: Darwinism = Nazism

Isn't it obvious?

This should make Mandy (oh hot, white, gringa!) THROB.

re: #28 HugoChavez

This should make Mandy (oh hot, white, gringa!) THROB.

Mandy likes overdeveloped gay men?

re: #15 Kenneth

Ha! Figures you'ld beat me to the "throbbing" joke.

Where you been all day? There've been some trolls what needed your serious cussing out...

I've been in and out.

re: #28 HugoChavez

This should make Mandy (oh hot, white, gringa!) THROB.

Isn't that gay?

re: #30 MandyManners

I've been in and out.

Mandy, it is kinda early in the PM here on the East Coast to start the old "in out" thing!

I don't support the intelligent design folks, but are they really so influential as to warrant such understandable hostility at this blog? Have the made such inroads in education that they can no longer be casually dismissed?

I live in the south and have heard hardly anything to suggest the ID crowd is being taken seriously, at least no more than the Ebonics crowd of the early 90s. I think there are bigger fish to fry.

If nothing else, I do like the idea of attempting to go beyond or in a different way from the theory of evolution. If for no other reason than to continually validate it. The best ideas are the ones that are continuously tested and challenged - and come through it.

re: #26 Nevergiveup

I doubt Herr Hitler would have been happy to know he evolved from a Ape instead of an Aryan.

Aryans = Alans --> Ossetians.

It's all connected people. Run for the hills!

re: #30 MandyManners

I've been in and out.

Lucky you.

re: #13 HugoChavez

That's really quite offensive.

re: #29 CyanSnowHawk

Mandy likes overdeveloped gay men?

That's not over-developed. Trust me. I know these things.

re: #34 zombie

Where do the Templars fit in?

re: #20 Nevergiveup

because she has appeal to both black and white US citizens

I keep forgetting that all US citizens are either "black" or "white". Good thing I have politicians and pundits to remind me.

No, no.. I think he was referring to the two US voters who are bicolored.

re: #32 Nevergiveup

*sigh*

re: #34 zombie

Aryans = Alans --> Ossetians.

It's all connected people. Run for the hills!

So Hitler wasn't really invading Russia. He was basically just passing thru on his way to Ossetia and Iran?

off topic

great piece on current russian war plans and needs
[Link: www.ronaldwinterbooks.com...]

re: #33 Eric Cartman's Conscience

Constant vigilance. The ID crowd has the stated position of trying to subvert science education, beginning with forcing ID into the schools. Until they stop, it must be resisted.

How many trolls, aside from Hugo over there do we have?

(see post 13)

re: #33 Eric Cartman's Conscience

They are making progress. They passed an "Academic Freedom" bill in Louisiana to teach creationism is science classes. There are still 6-7 other states considering similar bills now. It's a growing problem.

re: #37 MandyManners

That's not over-developed. Trust me. I know these things.

I will leave it to your expertise then.

#43, #33
not to mention, some of the folks that are trying to make common cause with them...

O/T II:
Pelosi caves on drilling......
Bet the koslings are ballistic.

re: #34 zombie

re: #26 Nevergiveup

I doubt Herr Hitler would have been happy to know he evolved from a Ape instead of an Aryan.

Aryans = Alans --> Ossetians.

It's all connected people. Run for the hills!

We're all gonna die!

Five quatloos to everyone on this thread if, before the year is out, this letter isn't being passed as genuine by a creationist.

And additional five quatloos to be stuck into the communal drinks fund if it ends up on Conservapedia in the Charles Darwin article.

#50
i'll match your five quatloos. anyone else?

re: #38 Dianna

Where do the Templars fit in?

Right between temping and template.

re: #38 Dianna

Where do the Templars fit in?

They stole the great treasures from under the Temple Mount! But how Soros got his filthy hands on it I'LL never know?

If the fundamentalist creationists can get Obama's speech rained out, I'll reconsider...
[Link: www.rockymountainnews.com...]

re: #52 CyanSnowHawk

Umberto Eco is disappointed in you. Don't you know that you can't have a really grand, "everything's connected, and it's sinister!" conspiracy theory unless the Templars are in it, somewhere?

Anyway, I must say goodnight.

Take care, lizards!

#55
are you sure we can't get away w/ substituting the Masons?

re: #54 tradewind

If the fundamentalist creationists can get Obama's speech rained out, I'll reconsider...
[Link: www.rockymountainnews.com...]

You mean you would sell your soul?

re: #55 Dianna

Umberto Eco is disappointed in you. Don't you know that you can't have a really grand, "everything's connected, and it's sinister!" conspiracy theory unless the Templars are in it, somewhere?

Anyway, I must say goodnight.

Take care, lizards!

Is it any wonder that sinister means "left" in heraldry?

re: #33 Eric Cartman's Conscience

I don't support the intelligent design folks, but are they really so influential as to warrant such understandable hostility at this blog? Have the made such inroads in education that they can no longer be casually dismissed?

Considering they're in bed with islamists and other haters of democracy- YES.

PUH-LEEZE -

Peel back "THE ONION" on this one. What IS true is that there IS a letter in the FDR Library from one Fidel Castro y Ruz asking for 10 bucks. This prooves...?

-S-

#58
nope, not at all...

re: #60 Dr. Shalit

It all makes sense now...

re: #60 Dr. Shalit

PUH-LEEZE -

Peel back "THE ONION" on this one. What IS true is that there IS a letter in the FDR Library from one Fidel Castro y Ruz asking for 10 bucks. This prooves...?

-S-

Castro's (non)sense of economics had deep roots.

Slightly related for any interested, but I just started reading Montesquieu's "The Spirit of the Laws," published in 1748 and influential on the writers of the Declaration. 2nd paragraph in:

"They who assert that a blind fatality produced the various effects we behold in this world talk very absurdly; for can anything be more unreasonable than to pretend that a blind fatality could be productive of intelligent beings?"

That's all he has to say on the issue.

Then I guess you'll just have to rant about the Shoaheducation website where this is posted (some paraphrases but here is the link):
[Link: www.shoaheducation.com...]

I. The Eugenics Movement
* "Those of the same blood, belong to the same Reich."

A. A Brief History and Definition of the Eugenics Movement

Probably one of the most hideous aspects of the Third Reich was their notorious fascination and experimentation with Eugenics. Eugenics may be defined as "The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding."1 It is a science of applied Eugenics, negatively characterized by many because it it often used in the interest of racial "refinement" or in extreme cases, genocide. The general movement of Eugenics prospered from the late 1800s to the 1950s; there are still outspoken advocates. While the notions of 'pure-breeding' the human race has been around since the time of the Greek philosophers, the actual 'science'(or pseudo-science) of Eugenics has taken hold mostly in the last 100 years, as more accepted sciences such as Genetics and studies of "Individual Differences" and Psychometrics began to appear. The United States, England and Germany are the foremost nations in which the Eugenics Movement Developed.

Gee what an amazing coincidence eugenics movement takes off just after Darwin publishes his main corpus on Evolution and survival of the fittest. It is at least some credit to Darwin, though not many of his followers, that he recanted shortly before his death of some of the more undesirable elements in the eugenics movement.

What I do admire about the ID folks, regardless of their aims, is that they MUST attribute the poetic Beauty (capital-B) that is life - the mind-boggling shit we sometimes suddenly see that leaves us in immediate awe - to something more than "retarded fish-frogs" as one of my favorite South Park episodes suggested:

[Link: www.southparkstudios.com...]

I find this letter problematic and highly doubtful....

re: #65 eaglewingz08

So in that case, I guess you blame Philo T. Farnsworth for the easy availability of XXX rated porn on DVDs, since after all, without his invention, there would have been nothing to show it on.

re: #54 tradewind

Why don't they pray for an eclipse? Now that would be impressive.

re: #63 CyanSnowHawk

Castro's (non)sense of economics had deep roots.

"CSH" -

Good Point. The Castro Regime STILL wants to borrow 10 to whatever magnitude Bucks. That is OK. Problem is the Castro Regime wants to borrow them as if he were LEE IACOCCA, with a guarantee from the US Taxpayer. Iacocca produced K-Cars and Mini-Vans and paid back the US Taxpayer as Mini-Vans were taking off. Smart Move - Chrysler got to keep the profits. And the Castro Regime, which wants to borrow money on the US Taxpayer's Credit is ready to produce.....? Don't make me laugh - any harder.

-S-

re: #70 Dr. Shalit

Well, you did ask what that letter proves.

Barna poll: Obama leads among atheists and agnostics, 55/17

re: #33 Eric Cartman's Conscience

Seriously- only a person who has not paid attention could make this sort of comment. That or an ID proponent- which you slide into at the end of yuor comment, I noticed.

Evolution already has been validated- without the "help" of ID. And that is not what ID is interested in anyways. The people pushing ID are actually after an entire reversal of science itself. Don't know what I'm talking about? Try reading the Wedge Strategy. But if, on the other hand, you actually agree with this nonsense, then tell us what about Enlightenment thinking you are so opposed to- because that is exactly what ID is attempting to suppress.

European Muslims Debate: Should Gays Be Executed?

Diversity!

re: #68 CyanSnowHawk

So in that case, I guess you blame Philo T. Farnsworth for the easy availability of XXX rated porn on DVDs, since after all, without his invention, there would have been nothing to show it on.

Edison had a lock on the Nickelodians before that.

re: #65 eaglewingz08

Then I guess you'll just have to rant about the Shoaheducation website where this is posted (some paraphrases but here is the link):
[Link: www.shoaheducation.com...]

I. The Eugenics Movement
* "Those of the same blood, belong to the same Reich."

A. A Brief History and Definition of the Eugenics Movement

Probably one of the most hideous aspects of the Third Reich was their notorious fascination and experimentation with Eugenics. Eugenics may be defined as "The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding."1 It is a science of applied Eugenics, negatively characterized by many because it it often used in the interest of racial "refinement" or in extreme cases, genocide. The general movement of Eugenics prospered from the late 1800s to the 1950s; there are still outspoken advocates. While the notions of 'pure-breeding' the human race has been around since the time of the Greek philosophers, the actual 'science'(or pseudo-science) of Eugenics has taken hold mostly in the last 100 years, as more accepted sciences such as Genetics and studies of "Individual Differences" and Psychometrics began to appear. The United States, England and Germany are the foremost nations in which the Eugenics Movement Developed.

Gee what an amazing coincidence eugenics movement takes off just after Darwin publishes his main corpus on Evolution and survival of the fittest. It is at least some credit to Darwin, though not many of his followers, that he recanted shortly before his death of some of the more undesirable elements in the eugenics movement.

As I have mentioned before, nothing could be more anti-evolutionary than the eugenics movement, for evolutionary theorists would insist upon allowing environmental selection to proceed unhindered, whereas eugenicists wish to substitute their own self-anointed 'intelligent designs.'

re: #71 CyanSnowHawk

Well, you did ask what that letter proves.

"CSH" -

Assuming all 'y'all mean the letter to "Hitler's Baby Momma" - it means NOTHING as it is a spoof. As to "The Letter" to FDR - it is Very, very REAL.
If all 'y'all don't believe it - contact the FDR Library.

-S-

#77
but did we loan him the ten bucks?

and would the contribution of all those escaped Cubans who made new lives here be considered payment w/ interest?

re: #74 Kenneth

European Muslims Debate: Should Gays Be Executed?

Diversity!

Kenneth -

AMERICA - The Meanest S.O.B. Left in the Valley - Should be debating - are MUSLIM CLERICS Pathologically Crazy!

-S-

re: #20 Nevergiveup

File this ( If True ) under: What the Fuc....

Oy vey:
Joss Stone is set to write and record a campaign song for US Democrat presidential hopeful Barack Obama.

According to The Sun, Stone was asked personally by Obama to write and record the song, which will be the theme song for his election campaign.

Obama is said to favour Stone, a huge star in the USA (she is?! — Ed.), because she has appeal to both black and white US citizens.

The newspaper quotes an anonymous source as saying: "She [Stone] believes he (Obama) is going to be the first black president and she is honoured to be a part of that."

[Link: exurbanleague.com...]

Barry, bubbi, baby if I were you I would stick with Motown!

I thought that Ludacris already did his theme song.

/seriously has anyone found a place to listen to Raising McCain? I haven't found it yet.

re: #65 eaglewingz08

Eugenics may be defined as "The study of hereditary improvement of the human race by controlled selective breeding."

This is the very antithesis of evolution, but why let a little thing like the truth get in the way of spreading distortions?

#79, #74
i'll volunteer for the 'yes they are' side (don't everyone jump at once)

I thought it was pretty obvious that Hitler got his "master race" ideology from Darwin. Darwin in his "Descent of Man" wrote that the Scots were superior to the Irish.

re: #65 eaglewingz08

Gee what an amazing coincidence eugenics movement takes off just after Darwin publishes his main corpus on Evolution and survival of the fittest. It is at least some credit to Darwin, though not many of his followers, that he recanted shortly before his death of some of the more undesirable elements in the eugenics movement.

The progressivist and socialist memes predate Darwin.

Better to blame Mendel who quantified genetics and gave it a physical basis, although people had already been breeding animals for thousands of years without any theory at all.

Go read a book or something.

re: #75 abolitionist

Edison had a lock on the Nickelodians before that.

Just part of Man's progress in technology driven by their desire to get a better look at Women's bottoms.

As documented by Steve, from the BBC comedy Coupling.

semi-NSFW language.
Note: I can't view YouTube at work and pulled the link off Google, so it is possible that it does not show exactly what I think.

#73 Sharmuta

The only things I am certain about are the superiority of Shakespeare's collective words, Mozart's revolutionary and collective works, and our Founding Fathers collective ideas for democracy. So, please don't try to paint me as some fuckin' psalm thumping nutter. Considering Darwin followed the Enlightenment by some many few centuries I'll disregard that rather loose, inappropriate comparison. I simply, simply, simply wonder if there might perhaps be something else - and having nothing to do with either intelligent design or Darwin. Why the fuck would anyone want to stop questioning such a thing. Quantum Mechanics, String Theory, the idea of an Event Horizon, or manifold other universal questions - these are really settled by a single, obviously brilliant man stumbling upon the Gallapagos? If so, fine. I'm down. But why the hell not continue to question it?

re: #83 mad doc

That is clearly poppycock, as anyone who has heard the Irish pipes can attest. The Irish pipes are capable of actual music, in the right hands.

re: #77 Dr. Shalit

I believe the letter was as real as the one above is not.

re: #76 Salamantis

As I have mentioned before, nothing could be more anti-evolutionary than the eugenics movement, for evolutionary theorists would insist upon allowing environmental selection to proceed unhindered, whereas eugenicists wish to substitute their own self-anointed 'intelligent designs.'

Agreed, as I mentioned, the eugenics movement was based on the corruption of the evolutionary theory.

On a related fact what the hell is wrong with the widipedia entry on Galton. Disco hitting wikipedia now? There's a lot of nonsense put in this entry.

re: #86 Eric Cartman's Conscience

You can question every day why the sun comes up in the east, but you're wasting your time, and people may come to question your priorities.

#87
wasn't it that the Irish gave the pipes to the Scots, who still haven't gotten the joke?

(volley of bagpipe jokes, incoming!)

re: #74 Kenneth

European Muslims Debate: Should Gays Be Executed?

Diversity!

Iirc, Fred Phelps and his cult actually went to Iraq in about 1999 to participate in a big anti-American demonstration. Apparently, some of Saddam's tame mullahs had convinced themselves that Phelps was a major religious dissident in the US.

re: #83 mad doc

I thought it was pretty obvious that Hitler got his "master race" ideology from Darwin. Darwin in his "Descent of Man" wrote that the Scots were superior to the Irish.

mad doc -

Lemmesee -

The Scots as "Superior To" the Irish - I Call BS - and remind everyone that both were proud Celts - like - THE SAME PEOPLE! Like Israel and Judea.

-S-

re: #83 mad doc

I thought it was pretty obvious that Hitler got his "master race" ideology from Darwin. Darwin in his "Descent of Man" wrote that the Scots were superior to the Irish.

Speaking as an Ulsterman, with Scottish descent, I'm obviously pretty conflicted by all this. Which part of me is superior to which other part of me?

re: #83 mad doc

I thought it was pretty obvious that Hitler got his "master race" ideology from Darwin. Darwin in his "Descent of Man" wrote that the Scots were superior to the Irish.

Darwin was a piker next to the racism of the creationists of his day:

[Link: home.att.net...]

Here is Darwin's creationist contemporary Louis Agassiz, in a letter to his mother:

"It was in Philadelphia that I first found myself in prolonged contact with Negroes; all the domestics in my hotel were men of color. I can scarcely express to you the painful impression that I received, especially since the feeling that they inspired in me is contrary to all our ideas about the confraternity of the human type (genre) and the unique origin of our species. But truth before all. Nevertheless, I experienced pity at the sight of this degraded and degenerate race, and their lot inspired compassion in me in thinking that they were really men. Nonetheless, it is impossible for me to repress the feeling that they are not of the same blood as us. In seeing their black faces with their thick lips and grimacing teeth, the wool on their head, their bent knees, their elongated hands, I could not take my eyes off their face in order to tell them to stay far away. And when they advanced that hideous hand towards my plate in order to serve me, I wished I were able to depart in order to eat a piece of bread elsewhere, rather than dine with such service. What unhappiness for the white race --to have tied their existence so closely with that of Negroes in certain countries! God preserve us from such a contact." -- Louis Agassiz in a letter to his mother (1846), quoted in Gould, Stephen The Mismeasure of Man (1981) p. 44-45

re: #83 mad doc

There are hundreds of examples of "master race" ideologies preceding the Nazis, going back several centuries. To blame the Nazi's adoption of the sick idea on Darwin, who never endorsed the idea of a master race, is silly.

The earliest comprehensive reference to a eugenicist program is found in Aristotle's philosophy, nearly two millennia before Darwin published Origin Of Species.

re: #86 Eric Cartman's Conscience

I had no idea Darwin invented String Theory. That's truly amazing!

re: #86 Eric Cartman's Conscience

I simply, simply, simply wonder if there might perhaps be something else - and having nothing to do with either intelligent design or Darwin.

Illegal aliens?

re: #93 shiplord kirel

Wow! I had no idea. Phelps realy is a dispicable worm.

re: #86 Eric Cartman's Conscience

So, please don't try to paint me as some fuckin' psalm thumping nutter.

I did no such thing.

I simply, simply, simply wonder if there might perhaps be something else - and having nothing to do with either intelligent design or Darwin. Why the fuck would anyone want to stop questioning such a thing. Quantum Mechanics, String Theory, the idea of an Event Horizon, or manifold other universal questions - these are really settled by a single, obviously brilliant man stumbling upon the Gallapagos? If so, fine. I'm down. But why the hell not continue to question it?

What does evolution have to do with Quantum Mechanics or String Theory? Why would you think Darwin settled anything to do with these by publishing his findings on evolution? Darwin's theory has been questioned for 150 years and has only grown stronger. Scientists have repeatedly made findings that actually strengthen evolution. To my knowledge- there is no competing theory except for that of creation and it's bastard offspring ID. So while you may question evolution, science does not. If your really interested in learning more about why this discussion is continuing to take place here- then do some reading.

Fake, but accurate.

#101 / 93
'dissident' at least is true, but i suppose 'sacrilegious' might be more accurate...?

re: #101 Kenneth

Wow! I had no idea. Phelps realy is a dispicable worm.

That's how he swims so fast underwater.

"mad doc" has zero interest in learning the truth about eugenics or evolution. He simply wants to continue distorting the truth as to bring down science.

I am constantly amazed by people who cannot see sarcasm when it is so blatant unless it is pointed out to them. Sheesh!

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Barna poll: Obama leads among atheists and agnostics, 55/17

Makes me wanna puke.

I actually got MORE liberal as I got into religion and spirituality, and went back toward conservatism as I became an agnostic and then an atheist. I really think, despite their protestations to the contrary, that most agnostics and atheists are not of the "thoughtful" type, but of the reactionary, contrarian type that rejects anything and everything even tangentially associated with religion. They aren't hard-nosed realists or paragons of common sense in the Mark Twain mold.

WOW you gotta read this article:

[Link: seattlepi.nwsource.com...]

instapundit linked to Don Surber who had some excerpts, but damn. Read the whole thing, really.

re: #108 GeeWiz

I am constantly amazed by people who cannot see sarcasm when it is so blatant unless it is pointed out to them. Sheesh!

I think it's funny.

re: #95 Morgoth

Speaking as an Ulsterman, with Scottish descent, I'm obviously pretty conflicted by all this. Which part of me is superior to which other part of me?

I am guessing that you like to drink, but only the cheap stuff?

re: #109 Tigger2005

I travelled down the same path as you but stopped at agnostic. This coming from a born and raised Roman Catholic.

#112 / 95

_/ _/ a whiskey for each of you...

oops -- parts of my glasses are vanishing. (were they half full or empty?)

re: #111 sparrowlake

I think it's funny.

I find it funny as well but sad in that there are so many people out there that "just don't get it".

re: #109 Tigger2005

the reactionary, contrarian type that rejects anything and everything even tangentially associated with religion.

Yup thats me. But I'm somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan on many issues. And the only person who would make me want to vote for the Obamessiah (were I actually American) would be Mike Huckabee.

#117
is it due to a lack of critical thinking skills being taught, that people can't recognize it?

#103 Sharmata

I do not at all pretend to posit a counter to Evolution. I have no desire to do so. But I wonder, with genuine curiosity and without motive or any black dog in this fight; I do wonder - if evolution is a theory that proves invioable, would it not then be universally invioble? And would we not then be allowed to ascribe the behavior of all things, from the spider in your bathroom to the behavior of the moon and sun, to some sort of evolution? Of course it seems a ridiculous question - a spider compared to a universe. But why should I fear to ask it?

That said, I have no interest in some unprepared asshole teaching my children that the moon is a great spider made of jelly and goat-cheese. But do I really want them insisting my kid believe the theories of man who has been unchallenged for a century - at least unchallenged without ridicule and admonishment?

OT: SeafoodGumbo has a spin off link above -
Man Dead, Large Amount Of Possible Cyanide Found

It has the makings of international intrigue. Less than two weeks before the Democratic National Convention a man has been found dead in a Denver hotel room with a container of what authorities initially suspect to be the deadly poison cyanide.

Adding to the intrigue is that the dead man, Saleman Abdirahman Dirie, 29, appears to be from outside the U.S. No passport was found on Dirie, who is believed to have entered the country from Canada.

re: #113 buzzsawmonkey

The problem with really blatant sarcasm is that it is seldom very funny. And the problem with subtle sarcasm is that it relies upon an in-group to get it.

Which is why the value of sarcasm as a political tool is usually vastly overrated.

And that's why Obama's "bitter white folk clinging to their guns & religion" speech was loved by the San Fransisco millionaires he said it to but was understood very differently in the "fly-over' States.

re: #102 buzzsawmonkey

I can't believe I logged in just to +1 your comment...

re: #96 Salamantis

"Sal" -

One CANNOT pick one's parents though we CAN pick our friends and/or nose - picking a friend's nose - perhaps more difficult.
White folks and Black Folks have lived in North America since the 1600's.
'All Us 'All know each other's Good and Bad points. Blacks believe they were "kept down," they were. Whites, especially later arriving "ethnics" believe that they have been called upon to pay for injustice that they were not responsible for during their own generation - Guess What - they are right too. So NOW - what do we DO about it. Aye, that is the Question.

-S-

#122
as in, hey, i resemble that remark...
(full disclosure -- i'm a BA lizard, and i found it to be quite revealing of his character...)

re: #113 buzzsawmonkey

The problem with really blatant sarcasm is that it is seldom very funny. And the problem with subtle sarcasm is that it relies upon an in-group to get it.

Which is why the value of sarcasm as a political tool is usually vastly overrated.

The only reason it is "overrated" is that there are so many un-informed among us that just don't pay attention to anything that has no affect on their daily lives, or so they think.

re: #121 seekeroftruth

OT: SeafoodGumbo has a spin off link above -
Man Dead, Large Amount Of Possible Cyanide Found

Nah, it can't be a terrorist plot. The terrorists can't be so dumb as to not know that the Democrats are their friends.

Unless the plan was to make the cyanide attack seem like an evil Rovian plot...

Looks like it's time to wander over to the huffpo and DK and study the devolution of mankind as they self-destruct over queen pelosis reversal on off shore drilling.

Will be back after the nightly brawl is over.

L8R

#127
cue diabolical laughter?

(tuesday afternoons are the days to post... usually i can't keep up with the threads!)

re: #120 Eric Cartman's Conscience

I encourage you to get an education in science. All scientific theories are challenged scientifically. That is the whole point of science. Theories are regularly tested, updated and improved upon. Only ideologues insist on an absolute immoveable "IDEA" to explain everything, without referece to reality.

re: #120 Eric Cartman's Conscience

#103 Sharmata

I do not at all pretend to posit a counter to Evolution. I have no desire to do so. But I wonder, with genuine curiosity and without motive or any black dog in this fight; I do wonder - if evolution is a theory that proves invioable, would it not then be universally invioble? And would we not then be allowed to ascribe the behavior of all things, from the spider in your bathroom to the behavior of the moon and sun, to some sort of evolution? Of course it seems a ridiculous question - a spider compared to a universe. But why should I fear to ask it?

That said, I have no interest in some unprepared asshole teaching my children that the moon is a great spider made of jelly and goat-cheese. But do I really want them insisting my kid believe the theories of man who has been unchallenged for a century - at least unchallenged without ridicule and admonishment?

Evolution specifically refers to the nonrandomly selecting effects of environments upon randomly mutating populations. The only two areas in which it is applied are populations of living organisms, and populations of ideas in a cognitive environment (memetics). The nonliving, defined as those entities that do not reproduce, do not qualify. Planets, moons and stars do not engages in self-replicating behavior.

re: #113 buzzsawmonkey

The problem with really blatant sarcasm is that it is seldom very funny. And the problem with subtle sarcasm is that it relies upon an in-group to get it.
Which is why the value of sarcasm as a political tool is usually vastly overrated.

Why use a pin prick when a chainsaw will suffice?

re: #127 Tigger2005

Nah, it can't be a terrorist plot. The terrorists can't be so dumb as to not know that the Democrats are their friends.

Unless the plan was to make the cyanide attack seem like an evil Rovian plot...

"Tigg" -

"Work Accident?"

-S-

re: #120 Eric Cartman's Conscience

You seriously think that evolution has gone unchallenged or that Darwin isn't ridiculed when people tar him with the nazi brush? There is a plethora of evidence to support evolution. There are plenty of books out there, plenty of sites on the internet that will help you understand more if you're interested. And it's all very fascinating.

re: #89 Mars Needs Neocons

What errors have you noted in the Wiki Galton article? (Have you considered submitting corrections?)

re: #117 GeeWiz

I find it funny as well but sad in that there are so many people out there that "just don't get it".

It makes for nice multi-level conversations.

re: #127 Tigger2005

I was thinking the same thing when I first read it. Could be interesting.

re: #98 Salamantis

The earliest comprehensive reference to a eugenicist program is found in Aristotle's philosophy, nearly two millennia before Darwin published Origin Of Species.

Was that before or after he wrote that it was a readily observable truth that aphids arise from the dew which falls on plants, fleas from putrid matter, mice from dirty hay, crocodiles from rotting logs at the bottom of bodies of water etc..

re: #106 sparrowlake

I had no idea who he was until those telecom commercials. But I'm still not watching these commie olympics. Phelps fan- hmmmm- just get the golds kid and btw- knock off Spitz's record. Ha

Isn't eugenics just the application of animal husbandry to humans? Which is pretty much all I need to know to dismiss it as unsuitable for human practice and morally repugnant. It is not anti-evolution, but it does go against our grain in that it takes our selection of our own mates and turns it over to some 'authority' that is trying to breed for specific traits. (Like the Howards with longevity, Re: Heinlein) Darwin may have given us a scientific basis for how it works, but that is all, and there is absolutely no evidence that he advocated it.

Reminds me a bit of that Star Trek:TNG episode with the separated colonies that each had too small a population for successful breeding. One had turned to cloning, the other had some sort of agrarian thing going on, but not enough population to sustain the colony. The solution to the problem was practically eugenic.

#130 Kenneth

I made this exact point at the beginning of this thread

If nothing else, I do like the idea of attempting to go beyond or in a different way from the theory of evolution. If for no other reason than to continually validate it. The best ideas are the ones that are continuously tested and challenged - and come through it.

I am not a proponent of ID. But, apparently at this point its like some unliked figure proclaiming "I'm not racist."

I am actually interested in a much bigger question. If Darwin is right then what an incredibly precocious (in human terms), utterly earth-shattering find he came upon. I just like the idea of always asking more. This is not a reversion to psuedo-religiosity, but a desire to maybe find something more.

OT, but I can't believe Markos actually wrote this:

McCain's latest web ad has lots of young, white women professing their love for Obama. Who is black... They couldn't say the truth, "because we want to scare people into thinking the black guy wants to rape their young, white daughters.

Do "progressives" see racism in everything? Isn't that racism in itself?

#144 slartybartfast
yes, they do.

(btw, i do admire your work w/ those coastlines!)

re: #139 LEGION

LEGION -

AND - Guess What - SPITZ is Rooting For Him - Just Pissed Off that he wasn't invited to watch it - NICE TRY!

-S-

re: #144 SlartyBartfast

Ahhh who cares what that dolt writes. But you are right- they are the racists.

re: #86 Eric Cartman's Conscience

Quantum Mechanics, String Theory, the idea of an Event Horizon, or manifold other universal questions - these are really settled by a single, obviously brilliant man stumbling upon the Gallapagos?

Huh? What on earth are you talking about?

But why the hell not continue to question it?

Huh? What do you think science does every day?

#131 Salamantis

Now that is a post I love! Genuinely. Purely.

That post is the sort that blogs are made for. It helps alter wrong-headed thinking on an idea. I know I am imperfect on many things and am eager for information like that. I thank you for it.

re: #143 Eric Cartman's Conscience

It's not a matter of IF Darwin is right, because all the evidence collected in the last 150 years says he is indeed right.

re: #141 ploome hineni

oh goody

Pelosi, Michelle Obama To Kick Off Dem Convention

/and Father Fleger and the Rev Wright will do their loud Minstral Show

And maybe these morons will also get to speak:

Iowa Republican Leach, Ex-House Member, Backs Democrat Obama

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

I also have no doubt that a lot of Republicans and independents are going to be attracted to his call for a new era of non-ideological, bipartisan decision-making,'' Leach, a former chairman of the House Banking Committee, said on a conference call with reporters.

Yeah? With his record for reaching across the isle? Do these guys just make things up and think no one will notice?

I, for one, question evolution.

If it really works, then why the hell do humans still have wisdom teeth?!

_{/Only kidding -- but mine were removed this morning...}

re: #76 Salamantis

As I have mentioned before, nothing could be more anti-evolutionary than the eugenics movement, for evolutionary theorists would insist upon allowing environmental selection to proceed unhindered, whereas eugenicists wish to substitute their own self-anointed 'intelligent designs.'

Nonsense.

That's like saying flight is "anti-fluid dynamics" because you aren't allowing the atmosphere to interact in its natural sate. Just like flight is applied physics, Eugenics is applied evolution, as is animal husbandry and agriculture.

Eugenics, unlike agriculture, is wrong because humans aren't product lines.

re: #138 Mich-again

re: #98 Salamantis

Sal: The earliest comprehensive reference to a eugenicist program is found in Aristotle's philosophy, nearly two millennia before Darwin published Origin Of Species.

Mich: Was that before or after he wrote that it was a readily observable truth that aphids arise from the dew which falls on plants, fleas from putrid matter, mice from dirty hay, crocodiles from rotting logs at the bottom of bodies of water etc..

Sal2: Yeah, Aristotle, Plato, etc. were wrong about a lot of things. But so were those who wrote the Bible. We have had two millennia to figure out things they didn't know back then.

But the Greeks were still pretty bright. Most of Aristotelian deductive logic still holds up, because it depended upon the relations between the abstract forms of assertions, and not upon their empirical contents, to guide it from premises to conclusions. And most of Euclidean geometry remains pretty solid, since it employed the Aristotelian syllogistic form in order to prove its theorems.

re: #147 Dr. Shalit

Why go there and breath the dirty air and or get knifed by psychos or blown up?
Do like Henry Aaron did to Bobby Bonds- just send a video saying congrats.

re: #148 LEGION

Ahhh who cares what that dolt writes. But you are right- they are the racists.

Dolt! Hah! Wonderful, concise characterization!

And, #146 Querent

(btw, i do admire your work w/ those coastlines!)

Of course you know, I'm particularly proud of the fjords...

re: #135 J.S.

What errors have you noted in the Wiki Galton article? (Have you considered submitting corrections?)

I think this was intentional.

he was a good man untill the government came and took his guns away. No matter how many pimples he had people would make fun of him but that did not stop him with finding finger prints.then michael jackson rapped josh twice and shawn.

I wouldn't consider that an error.

re: #33 Eric Cartman's Conscience

I don't support the intelligent design folks, but are they really so influential as to warrant such understandable hostility at this blog? Have the made such inroads in education that they can no longer be casually dismissed?

I live in the south and have heard hardly anything to suggest the ID crowd is being taken seriously, at least no more than the Ebonics crowd of the early 90s. I think there are bigger fish to fry.

If nothing else, I do like the idea of attempting to go beyond or in a different way from the theory of evolution. If for no other reason than to continually validate it. The best ideas are the ones that are continuously tested and challenged - and come through it.

1. Sadly, yes they are very influential and are working hard to become even moreso. They publish regularly in important conservative magazines like National Review, and they are featured prominently in speeches to large conservative groups.
2. The ID proponents use almost identical tactics to the nutjob leftists who have taken over much of the democrat party and our major academic institutions. They alternately dazzle and bully folks who don't have strong science backgrounds with crazy lingo and jargon that sounds super "smart" and "too complicated" to argue with. Jeff Goldstein over at Protein Wisdom writes about how this stuff has changed things on the social sciences side of life all the time. The weird thing is that he doesn't oppose ID. I'd think the parallel would slap him in the face. But English is his specialty so perhaps it is normal that he would catch the BSers in his field and pass over the ones in the sciences.
3. If "normal" folks in the democrat party had resisted the bullies and bullshitters 30 years ago, we might actually still have two decent, pro-American political parties in this country, and might actually have functional pro-American public education and universities in this country. Because the far left ideologues succeeded in kicking out or silencing the "other" that is no longer the case.

re: #131 Salamantis

Evolution specifically refers to the nonrandomly selecting effects of environments upon randomly mutating populations.

The usual definition is that genetic changes in populations are heritable. How much evolution relies on random mutation is actually controversial and debatable.

The only two areas in which it is applied are populations of living organisms, and populations of ideas in a cognitive environment (memetics). The nonliving, defined as those entities that do not reproduce, do not qualify. Planets, moons and stars do not engages in self-replicating behavior.

That's not true either.
Inanimate objects don't replicate either, but "evolution of design" whereby useful traits are retained in subsequent designs, and useless ones discarded (by "intelligent designers!") is quite a valid concept, and a legitimate use of Darwinian principles.

re: #143 Eric Cartman's Conscience

Darwin's theories have been tested, examined, revised, updated, debated & expanded upon. That's how science works. Creationists & ID fanatics are always asserting "Darwinism" is some kind of static ideology. It isn't. That assertion is nothing more than projection of their own rigid mindset.

You wonder if there is more to life & the universe? Me too. Science is only concerned with a subset of questions. Theology, art and philosophy are other human endeavors which address other questions.

re: #135 J.S.

What errors have you noted in the Wiki Galton article? (Have you considered submitting corrections?)

I removed it, but let's see if it lasts.

re: #153 Fat Jolly Penguin

And a tail bone and tonsils and an appendix- yadda yadda

re: #142 CyanSnowHawk

Isn't eugenics just the application of animal husbandry to humans? Which is pretty much all I need to know to dismiss it as unsuitable for human practice and morally repugnant. It is not anti-evolution, but it does go against our grain in that it takes our selection of our own mates and turns it over to some 'authority' that is trying to breed for specific traits. (Like the Howards with longevity, Re: Heinlein) Darwin may have given us a scientific basis for how it works, but that is all, and there is absolutely no evidence that he advocated it.

Reminds me a bit of that Star Trek:TNG episode with the separated colonies that each had too small a population for successful breeding. One had turned to cloning, the other had some sort of agrarian thing going on, but not enough population to sustain the colony. The solution to the problem was practically eugenic.

Actually, the scientist and Roman Catholic monk Gregor Mendel provided the template for how dominant and recessive traits are passed between generations. The classic model of evolutionary theory was formed by combining Darwin with Mendel, and subsequently, Watson & Crick discovered the physical substrate DNA.

re: #140 buzzsawmonkey

Sarcasm as a tool of political education is well-nigh useless.

But as a political tool have you not just argued convincingly that sarcasm is a good method for people to be manipulated into following without critical thought?

Bill Wilson, from Koenig's International News, points to even bigger problems heading your way, and, hence, the way of the free west.

re: #151 Sharmuta

It's not a matter of IF Darwin is right, because all the evidence collected in the last 150 years says he is indeed right.

Sharm -

Darwin IS Right as to "The Evolution of Species" - as to the ORIGIN - that is more an issue of theology. Theology, like Russia, is a mystery wrapped in an enigma. Go from there.

-S-

re: #142 CyanSnowHawk

No. Darwin did not give anyone any "clues" about how "artificial selection" improved animals...Darwin had no knowledge about "the nuts and bolts" of heredity...(in fact, it was a huge stumbling block for Darwin, because he didn't know about the actual "mechanics" about how certain traits were passed along down through the generations...there was the notion (which Darwin also believed) in a "blending" of characteristics...(but clearly "blending" would lead to a problem with Darwin's theory -- all the "bad" stuff would be blended out...)

re: #144 SlartyBartfast

Good grief!

re: #143 Eric Cartman's Conscience

If Darwin is right then what an incredibly precocious (in human terms), utterly earth-shattering find he came upon.

Here is where you begin to get unmoored. "Right" in scientific terms means something different than that used in the polemicized atmosphere of political debate.

As for being precocious... not to take anything away from Darwin, but he was moving along with the great upthrust in scientific discovery. From the days of Brahe and Galileo the scientific endeavor of human civilization had been expanding greatly, and with the maturation of colonization in the 19th century and the abundance of ships and the growth of educational establishments... Darwin was right in the swing of things.

re: #144 SlartyBartfast

The ad also features young men. Does that mean Markos likes to think about himself having sex with Obama?

re: #9 MandyManners

LOL!

Can you make it throb, Charles?

Ease up. This is a family blog.

re: #161 Kenneth

Darwin's theories have been tested, examined, revised, updated, debated & expanded upon. That's how science works. Creationists & ID fanatics are always asserting "Darwinism" is some kind of static ideology. It isn't. That assertion is nothing more than projection of their own rigid mindset.
.

The word "Darwinism" is a disparaging term used exclusively by Creationists to imply a cult of personality where there isn't one.

No biologists or individuals involved in evolutionary science ever use it, any more than physicists use the term "Einsteinism" to refer to the theory of relativity, or "Newtonism" to refer to the theory of gravitation.

re: #131 Salamantis

Evolution specifically refers to the nonrandomly selecting effects of environments upon randomly mutating populations. The only two areas in which it is applied are populations of living organisms, and populations of ideas in a cognitive environment (memetics). The nonliving, defined as those entities that do not reproduce, do not qualify. Planets, moons and stars do not engages in self-replicating behavior.

True, but the nonliving does change with time and the influence of other nonliving entities, often in predictable manner, and we do also call such change evolution. I suppose that those who really know nothing of biological evolution or science in general may be confused by such differences.

OT: McCain wins over conservatives with one word.

re: #172 buzzsawmonkey

Sarcasm is a means of bolstering pre-existing prejudice, and solidifying in-group self-regard.

It is utterly useless as a means for reaching out and changing the minds of those not already in, or pre-disposed to be in, the in-group.

In other words, it does not manipulate into following without critical thought, but merely fortifies the pre-existing lack of such thought.

Wasn't the point of someone like Swift to show the absurd conclusion of some ideas, thereby to change the minds of those who hold such ideas as truths?

re: #162 Mars Needs Neocons

Good for you. (I've also noticed some other troubling entries at Wiki -- on a different topic -- they were using as a "reference" some Historical Revisionist website as a "source"...etc...)

re: #118 Morgoth

Yup thats me. But I'm somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan on many issues. And the only person who would make me want to vote for the Obamessiah (were I actually American) would be Mike Huckabee.

I came very, very close to tossing my cookies when I got an e-mail from The Center for Inquiry raving about that piece of filth British MP, what's his name...when he came here and spoke to Congress. I have an e-mail sitting in my inbox from them now titled "U.S. must embrace obligations of global citizenship." I can't even bring myself to open it.

Maybe I didn't express myself right...I think a lot of people are atheists not because they are rational, clear-eyed, honest, common-sense, hard-nosed realists, but rather because they are radical idealists, or utopians, or something like that, and quite willing to lie to themselves or believe impossible things if they want to. They reject the concept of God because they feel it's too limiting, not for mundane reasons like lack of evidence. It's obvious that many of them hold a lot of positions that they clearly have not reasoned themselves into. For example, nobody, applying reason, can possibly come to the conclusion that socialism or communism are good ideas. For these economic philosophies to work, all people must become perfectly selfless. What honest, common-sense, hard-nosed realist of a person can look at human history, at other human beings, or even at himself and imagine this ever happening?

re: #173 FrogMarch

Make sure the families eyes areaverted when you see "boob thread" pop up, as it does periodically.

re: #174 looking closely

Quite so. The ID proponents reek of projection.

#151

It's not a matter of IF Darwin is right, because all the evidence collected in the last 150 years says he is indeed right.

Darwin is something I've agreed with since childhood. And no one has persuaded me otherwise. Frankly, I didn't even consider this issue until I started seeing numerous posts here at LGF about the subject. One is almost compelled to wonder, then, what all the fuss is about. So, I looked at it, wondered on it, listened to talk of it, and am still an evolutionist - a Darwinist. It was never really a question. But I'm always interested in how one comes to an opposite conclusion from my own. Not to the point of idiot-relativism, but to the acknowledgment that I should attempt to appreciate how someone might look upon an elephant and think there is something more there than a long trunk merely evolved to dig deep during an drought. But then, what could be better than such natural self-determination.

re: #160 looking closely

re: #131 Salamantis

Sal: Evolution specifically refers to the nonrandomly selecting effects of environments upon randomly mutating populations.

lc: The usual definition is that genetic changes in populations are heritable. How much evolution relies on random mutation is actually controversial and debatable.

Sal2: In the absence of mutation from which to select changes that 'work better' in an environment, there could be no evolution. Generations would remain forever the same, and either live or die in their environments.

Sal: The only two areas in which it is applied are populations of living organisms, and populations of ideas in a cognitive environment (memetics). The nonliving, defined as those entities that do not reproduce, do not qualify. Planets, moons and stars do not engages in self-replicating behavior.

lc: That's not true either.
Inanimate objects don't replicate either, but "evolution of design" whereby useful traits are retained in subsequent designs, and useless ones discarded (by "intelligent designers!") is quite a valid concept, and a legitimate use of Darwinian principles.

Sal2: I am speaking of the natural world, and not of people figuring out better mousetraps (besides which, that would simply be the physical application of evolved memes). Notice, btw, that life cycles in the absence or reproduction are insufficient. Stars have life cycles, but they do not replicate.

re: #183 buzzsawmonkey

That was satire, not mere sarcasm. Big difference.

And frankly, Swift was more than a little leaden in his touch.

Right. Thanks.

re: #120 Eric Cartman's Conscience

#103 Sharmata

I do not at all pretend to posit a counter to Evolution. I have no desire to do so. But I wonder, with genuine curiosity and without motive or any black dog in this fight; I do wonder - if evolution is a theory that proves invioable, would it not then be universally invioble? And would we not then be allowed to ascribe the behavior of all things, from the spider in your bathroom to the behavior of the moon and sun, to some sort of evolution? Of course it seems a ridiculous question - a spider compared to a universe. But why should I fear to ask it?

Because it makes absolutely no sense at all? (And I assume you really meant inviolable.) Evolution deals with living things. How would it any way, shape or form influence the behavior of inanimate objects? Do you question whether the Pauli exclusion principle is going to affect the carrots in my garden?

That said, I have no interest in some unprepared asshole teaching my children that the moon is a great spider made of jelly and goat-cheese. But do I really want them insisting my kid believe the theories of man who has been unchallenged for a century - at least unchallenged without ridicule and admonishment?

What part of 150 years of scientific scrutiny did you not understand? Evolution has been challenged repeatedly, and not just by the dogma inspired pseudo-challenges of recent times. It has withstood this scrutiny. As new facts have been uncovered, evolution has been re-examined - and it's survived.

There is no scientific dissent with evolution. All the complaints are religious in nature, and that is why they aren't taken seriously - they aren't scientific.

There is no reason science and religion cannot get along, unless someone is unwilling to except reality when it can be so plainly demonstrated.

re: #153 Fat Jolly Penguin

I, for one, question evolution.

If it really works, then why the hell do humans still have wisdom teeth?!

_{/Only kidding -- but mine were removed this morning...}

That is because evolution is imperfect and people were originally not designed to live much beyond their forties. Now, if evolution were "intelligent" no designer would make such a mess of so many parts.

Wait 'till you need those reading glasses, and pull your back, for example, and I could go on, but then we would have a 4 year medical degree to read through, since that is largely based on the unintelligent part of the design.

Oh, this is an extremely common ID tactic:

I simply, simply, simply wonder if there might perhaps be something else - and having nothing to do with either intelligent design or Darwin. Why the fuck would anyone want to stop questioning such a thing. Quantum Mechanics, String Theory, the idea of an Event Horizon, or manifold other universal questions - these are really settled by a single, obviously brilliant man stumbling upon the Gallapagos? If so, fine. I'm down. But why the hell not continue to question it?

I had one ID proponent tell me that "evolutionists" taught that everything is evolving, even the elements. I hope I was able to convince the poor thing that the first thing I taught my students in Jr. High and in college level chemistry classes was that the elements DO NOT change. You know, atomic number defines the atoms, the identity of the atoms defines the element.

The only atoms/elements that "change" are the radioisotopes, which decay. But they don't just decay in myriad and unpredictable ways. That's not evolution of elements.

And I chatted with another IDer who tried to bully people by bringing up advanced thermodynamics. As in "I bet none of these evolution proponents have even had advanced thermodynamics."

Um, whether a species thrives in a changing environment or dies out because it didn't adapt is real easy to figure out. It doesn't require advanced thermodynamics. I was lucky to have a physics prof around who took the lead debunking that whole line of stupidity.

re: #178 J.S.

Good for you. (I've also noticed some other troubling entries at Wiki -- on a different topic -- they were using as a "reference" some Historical Revisionist website as a "source"...etc...)

Nasty.

I don't really get what the point was of someone adding gibberish to an entry like that. It added nothing, it was like the work of some moronic 12 year old.

Hubble Kaleidoscope Finds Evidence Of Space Looking All Crazy

Astronomers analyzing the first images captured by the new Hubble Space Kaleidoscope, which went online Tuesday, announced that they've acquired the first concrete evidence that the universe is in a constant state of total weirdness.

Science!

#170 freetoken

I've grown up working the water and always appreciate being moored. I thank you for it. You're right.

re: #119 Querent

#117
is it due to a lack of critical thinking skills being taught, that people can't recognize it?

I don't think so. I see it as a lack of paying attention to the big picture. It's the old thinking of "if it has no affect on my daily life, why should I give a damn". I hear this from people more times than I can count, especially from those of the 20 something generation. Outside of the "Global Warming" meme, I see zero interest from them in the next generation's coming global problems.

I lived thru the "Missiles of October" which was a showdown between super-powers. They lived thru 9/11 which was an attack from a terrorist group. I am reminded of our bombing of Hiroshima in WWII when the Japanese doubted our ability to repeat it, thinking it was something we knew about but had no control over. When we did just that several days later, they surrendered. Since we have not been attacked since 9/11, they do not see the need to invest their interest. Like I said earlier, a sad statement on where American society has de-volved concerning our defensive interests.

re: #166 A Kiwi Infidel

I'm waiting for the DVD: "Dispensationalists Gone Wild".

re: #177 tokyobk

I think Swift was a master at getting others to see the absurdity of their behavior (holding up a strange mirror), and using satire as the means...(along with the occasional cutting sarcasim -- I recall the dialogue between Tom Thumb and the Giant King, and the Tom Thumb figure was elaborating on the "virtues" of gunpowder...)

The part of the religious attacks on Darwinism and promotion of ID that I miss is how doing either than leads to authentication of any of the human religions as being therefore any closer to accurate.

I understand that if evolution is true than the founding religious texts cannot be literally true but how does it not being true make the world suddenly created in six days or the Hebrew texts being more true than the Christian or Muslim?

re: #182 Eric Cartman's Conscience

Could you please use the reply or quote function when responding to someone? Thanks.

As for you comment- how should I know why people reject empirical evidence? But we don't get to figuring out why they think that way by offering up an alternate pseudo-scientific "theory" like ID as a challenge to evolution.

Question- have you read the Wedge Document? Do you really want to risk our Constitution by allowing them to foist this argument on America's children because you feel evolution will continue to be upheld? If so, then I think you don't really understand the strategy of the DI and their ilk.

re: #180 A Kiwi Infidel

Make sure the families eyes areaverted when you see "boob thread" pop up, as it does periodically.

Did someone say "Boob Thread"?

re: #190 Killgore Trout

You're linking to The Onion. If you meant your post as mocking of science, you just mocked yourself.

Fool!

re: #172 buzzsawmonkey

Sarcasm is a means of bolstering pre-existing prejudice, and solidifying in-group self-regard.
It is utterly useless as a means for reaching out and changing the minds of those not already in, or pre-disposed to be in, the in-group.
In other words, it does not manipulate into following without critical thought, but merely fortifies the pre-existing lack of such thought.

A tool which can be used as a defence mechanism to avoid critical thinking or to deflect rational arguments, is certainly what I would call a valuable political tool.
I am however not so sure that moonbattish, unthinking dismissal of opposing views qualifies as sarcasm, whether blunt or subtle.
I like to think of sacasm as a nice blend of irony and cruelty, designed to strip away a facade.

re: #142 CyanSnowHawk

Darwin may have given us a scientific basis for how it works, but that is all, and there is absolutely no evidence that he advocated it.

I find it rather like blaming Einstein for terrorists wanting to get their hands on dirty bombs. Just because he was instrumental in the evolution (hee) of the field, it in no ways mean he supported the abuse of his work, or could have even foreseen the consequences.

re: #170 freetoken

Here is where you begin to get unmoored. "Right" in scientific terms means something different than that used in the polemicized atmosphere of political debate.

As for being precocious... not to take anything away from Darwin, but he was moving along with the great upthrust in scientific discovery. From the days of Brahe and Galileo the scientific endeavor of human civilization had been expanding greatly, and with the maturation of colonization in the 19th century and the abundance of ships and the growth of educational establishments... Darwin was right in the swing of things.

Darwin was only prompted to publish his theory because he happened to read a paper by Alfred Russel Wallace, who had also independently figured it out, and didn't want to get scooped.

#186 Mose

See #182

And thanks for the spell check.

re: #154 nikis-knight

Nonsense.

That's like saying flight is "anti-fluid dynamics" because you aren't allowing the atmosphere to interact in its natural sate. Just like flight is applied physics, Eugenics is applied evolution, as is animal husbandry and agriculture.

Eugenics, unlike agriculture, is wrong because humans aren't product lines.

Actually, you just stated the nonsense. Eugenics is applied genetics, not applied evolution.

What Gregor Mendel did was not applied evolution.

OT: Climate change causes suffering for Maine's tourist industry.

August is usually the busiest month of the year for Maine's tourism industry. With August off to a soggy start, there are a lot of long faces in Vacationland.

Fleece and sweatshirts have replaced bikinis at Old Orchard Beach and no one's buying ice cream.

Instead, it's rained 10 of the last 11 days and it's unseasonably cool. Who's counting? Families on vacation, that's who.

"A little depressing so far ha. It would have been nice to go to Aquaboggan today."

Instead Dad had to break the bad news to Melanie, Alex and Nathan--the waterpark was closed due to weather.

Staying closed on a lucrative 10-dollar Monday means 20 to 30 thousand dollars down the tubes. And in Aquaboggan's short nine week season, they can't make that money back.

While bad weather tends to scare off last minute travelers, vacationers who've booked ahead usually forge ahead. They string up the blue tarp at the campground and try to make the best of it.

re: #198 Kenneth

You're linking to The Onion. If you meant your post as mocking of science, you just mocked yourself.

Fool!

Guilty as charged.

re: #197 Mars Needs Neocons

Avert the eyes, avert the eyes.........no wait

re: #156 LEGION

Why go there and breath the dirty air and or get knifed by psychos or blown up?
Do like Henry Aaron did to Bobby Bonds- just send a video saying congrats.

LEGION -

"Onna-Counta" - Spitz has NOTHING to apologize for - and I don't count an endorsement for WHEATIES about 30 years ago as being EVIL. Commercial - YES - Evil - No. PRAY TELL - EXCEPT FOR BEING JEWISH and Probably Zionist - What IS the Problem?

-S-

re: #193 freetoken

I'm waiting for the DVD: "Dispensationalists Gone Wild".

You will be able to buy this from you local sharia-compliant store in a very short while.

re: #83 mad doc

I thought it was pretty obvious that Hitler got his "master race" ideology from Darwin. Darwin in his "Descent of Man" wrote that the Scots were superior to the Irish.

Bollox to that!

Guinness and Connemara Single Malt are clear proof of Irish superiority.

re: #179 Tigger2005

I came very, very close to tossing my cookies when I got an e-mail from The Center for Inquiry raving about that piece of filth British MP, what's his name...when he came here and spoke to Congress. I have an e-mail sitting in my inbox from them now titled "U.S. must embrace obligations of global citizenship." I can't even bring myself to open it.

Maybe I didn't express myself right...I think a lot of people are atheists not because they are rational, clear-eyed, honest, common-sense, hard-nosed realists, but rather because they are radical idealists, or utopians, or something like that, and quite willing to lie to themselves or believe impossible things if they want to. They reject the concept of God because they feel it's too limiting, not for mundane reasons like lack of evidence. It's obvious that many of them hold a lot of positions that they clearly have not reasoned themselves into. For example, nobody, applying reason, can possibly come to the conclusion that socialism or communism are good ideas. For these economic philosophies to work, all people must become perfectly selfless. What honest, common-sense, hard-nosed realist of a person can look at human history, at other human beings, or even at himself and imagine this ever happening?

I saw that same notice and I shared your irritation at the tone and implications of it, but why so many people, you included, can't seem to say "leftist" or similar without throwing out atheist for good measure is beyond me.

You must be one of those self righteous, arrogant and conceited Christian types then, who sounds just like those snotty leftist atheists?

In a metaphorical sense, the universe has been "evolving" which is to say, changing over time. It's a fascinating and beautiful story.

re: #176 karmic_inquisitor

OT: McCain wins over conservatives with one word.

Yes we can!

re: #206 A Kiwi Infidel

Avert the eyes, avert the eyes.........no wait

lol

re: #196 Sharmuta

I probably don't understand their motives. I suspect it has to do with the overwhelming socialist group-think kids are taught in the public schools so these ID idiots want a counter-weight. Why they refuse to adequately teach math, science, and history is beyond me.

Hey guys! Meteor shower tonight!......

Advice on how to see the Perseids can be found at Sky and Telescope.

Slackers: the shower lasts several days (I saw some great Perseids last week), so if you miss Monday night, try Tuesday

...from Astrodyke.

Newsflash! Russia halts its assault on Georgia saying that the the assgressor have been punished. Bastards! [Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Okay - sorry to play and prove the fool tonight guys, but at least you had someone to flex your intellectual muscles at. And I mean that seriously and graciously. Ciao.

re: #211 Kenneth

In a metaphorical sense, the universe has been "evolving" which is to say, changing over time. It's a fascinating and beautiful story.

I prefer to think of it as maturing through its life cycle, and to reserve the term 'evolving' for processes involving (hi-fi yet imperfect) replication, involving mutation, acted upon by environmental selection.

re: #161 Kenneth

Darwin's theories have been tested, examined, revised, updated, debated & expanded upon. That's how science works. Creationists & ID fanatics are always asserting "Darwinism" is some kind of static ideology. It isn't. That assertion is nothing more than projection of their own rigid mindset.

Exactly. To continue the analogy, to be consistent Creationists should to refer to geometry as Euclidism, mechanics as Newtonism, orbital mechanics as Keplerism, calculus as Leibnizism, cosmology as Einsteinism, and so on.

But then Creationists are anything but consistent.

re: #143 Eric Cartman's Conscience

#130 Kenneth
I am actually interested in a much bigger question. If Darwin is right then what an incredibly precocious (in human terms), utterly earth-shattering find he came upon. I just like the idea of always asking more. This is not a reversion to psuedo-religiosity, but a desire to maybe find something more.

Do you doubt Pasteur because of the groundbreaking nature of his work? Thanks to his idea, untold millions of lives have been saved. That's pretty damn impressive.

What about Einstein? His work on relativity changed the entire way we look at the universe around us. Again, an incredible idea that turned science on its head.

There are countless other people out there who have made incredible discoveries, yet you aren't questioning their work.

You also seem to be working under the notion that evolution is exactly as Darwin left it. It's not! The field has been expanded on and reinforced by the work of numerous others. This isn't an idea that's floated around unchallenged for 150 years; just the opposite is true.

re: #25 Occasional Reader

I keep forgetting that all US citizens are either "black" or "white". Good thing I have politicians and pundits to remind me.

Someone screwed up the 2000 census. I could have sworn I saw a non-black, non-white American just the other day. Must have been part of some Rovian plot.
/

re: #216 Killgore Trout

Rats. We will be shrouded in fog... Again.

re: #192 GeeWiz

I don't think so. I see it as a lack of paying attention to the big picture. It's the old thinking of "if it has no affect on my daily life, why should I give a damn". I hear this from people more times than I can count, especially from those of the 20 something generation. Outside of the "Global Warming" meme, I see zero interest from them in the next generation's coming global problems.

I lived thru the "Missiles of October" which was a showdown between super-powers. They lived thru 9/11 which was an attack from a terrorist group. I am reminded of our bombing of Hiroshima in WWII when the Japanese doubted our ability to repeat it, thinking it was something we knew about but had no control over. When we did just that several days later, they surrendered. Since we have not been attacked since 9/11, they do not see the need to invest their interest. Like I said earlier, a sad statement on where American society has de-volved concerning our defensive interests.

Sometimes, we tend to see the past with rose colored glasses. Polls in 1944 showed that a very significant portion of Americans were not especially committed to seeing WW2 through to the bitter end. At one point, FDR permitted TIME magazine to publish photos of American war dead on Iwo Jima because he felt Americans needed to be reminded of how much some of their fellow citizens were sacrificing on their behalf. During the Civil War, opposition to the war and to Lincoln was very strong in the North.

I'm not denying that the short-sightedness may be worse today than it was even during the Vietnam era. BUT taken in historical perspective, it's not totally unprecedented, either.

re: #215 Eric Cartman's Conscience

No- they have their own agenda and that it to completely uproot science as a whole. Please read the Wedge Strategy.

They also want to convert your kids to their idea of faith. Please read the following from Phillip Johnson- father of the Wedge:

Johnson calls his movement "The Wedge." The objective, he said, is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to "the truth" of the Bible and then "the question of sin" and finally "introduced to Jesus."

I am pretty sure I am evolving in to a curmudgeon.

re: #210 Naso Tang

I saw that same notice and I shared your irritation at the tone and implications of it, but why so many people, you included, can't seem to say "leftist" or similar without throwing out atheist for good measure is beyond me.

You must be one of those self righteous, arrogant and conceited Christian types then, who sounds just like those snotty leftist atheists?

LOL didn't you read my earlier posts? I'm an atheist.

#192 geewhiz, & all who shake their heads at the folks whose sarcasm detectors don't work:

i also credit the school system and the media overload that has been steadily growing in the last 30 years. w/o the critical thinking skills it's harder to separate fiction from fact, and w/ the 24/7 bombardment of info, who's got the time or mental bandwidth to? (i say this as someone who for most of my life lacked the ability -- absent the obvious broad grin -- to tell when people were joking. Add the internet, smileys optional, and you see why /sarc tags are so crucial in blog comment threads. fortunately, the older & more scaly i get, the easier it is to detect the BS.)

Then of course you have those satirists who're just so good w/ the deadpan delivery... like Iowahawk...

re: #219 Eric Cartman's Conscience

Okay - sorry to play and prove the fool tonight guys, but at least you had someone to flex your intellectual muscles at. And I mean that seriously and graciously. Ciao.

You did no such thing.

re: #144 SlartyBartfast

OT, but I can't believe Markos actually wrote this:

Do "progressives" see racism in everything? Isn't that racism in itself?

As much as I hate generalizations, I have found an incredible amount of racism among the liberals I know. (I also know racists conservatives - they just don't go around moaning how everyone else is the racist.)

re: #216 Killgore Trout

Hey guys! Meteor shower tonight!......

...from Astrodyke.

I guess we will miss it from way down here. And its crappy weather to boot, so a double whammy.

re: #222 mossley

Do you doubt Pasteur because of the groundbreaking nature of his work? Thanks to his idea, untold millions of lives have been saved. That's pretty damn impressive.

What about Einstein? His work on relativity changed the entire way we look at the universe around us. Again, an incredible idea that turned science on its head.

There are countless other people out there who have made incredible discoveries, yet you aren't questioning their work.

You also seem to be working under the notion that evolution is exactly as Darwin left it. It's not! The field has been expanded on and reinforced by the work of numerous others. This isn't an idea that's floated around unchallenged for 150 years; just the opposite is true.

And just as Einstein was wrong on the cosmological constant and on Heisenbergian uncertainty, but right where it counted, on mass-energy conversion and relativity, Darwin was wrong about the blending of characteristics (Mendel fixed that), but right where it counted, on common ancestry, random mutation and nonrandom environmental selection.

re: #224 rawmuse

I think we'll be clear in Portland.

re: #199 sparrowlake

Abrams, in "The Glossary of Literary Terms" defines sarcasm as "Sarcasm in ordinary parlance is sometimes used for all irony, but it is better to restrict it to the crude and blatant use of apparent praise for dispraise: "Oh, you're God's great gift to women, are you !" Sarcasm is the common form of irony in dormitory persiflage."

re: #232 A Kiwi Infidel

Yeah, it's in the Northern sky for us. Probably out of range for you.

re: #198 Kenneth

Quick, someone get Kenneth a mirror.

re: #198 Kenneth

You're linking to The Onion. If you meant your post as mocking of science, you just mocked yourself.

Fool!

Oh come on Ken, KT knows whereof he links.
It's humor.
HUMOR.

[ your last comment, right back atcha ]

re: #205 Killgore Trout

Guilty as charged.

Dang. He caught it. He must have at least a 167IQ. I wish I were smart.

re: #225 Tigger2005

Thank you for helping me make my point about the public's lack of interest to the danger this country faces.

And with that, I bid you all a good-night and weet dreams.

Really, go read this article. Tours of Obama's and McCain's Senate offices. I can't believe it got published, to tell you the truth.

Here's just a little piece:

McCAIN

McCain's office is a comfortable place. Before he was off running for president, he'd start his mornings seated on the burnt red tufted-leather couch reading the papers while having coffee and the occasional doughnut. The back of one door is covered with leftover bits of tape: It's where aides tape up McCain's schedule when he's in town.

The office has a strong Southwestern flavor. McCain especially loves four stunning black-and-white prints of weathered Native Americans photographed by Goldwater, who died in 1998. Over the couch is a watercolor of a Native American girl tending sheep, painted in soft blues and oranges by impressionist Jeffrey Lunge. It is titled "Give Us This Day."

The mantel of an imposing marble fireplace is covered with various awards bestowed on McCain, and a few tired-looking plants. Almost lost among them is one of McCain's most prized possessions: a baseball signed by Red Sox great Ted Williams, a childhood hero.

It's also easy to miss a number of other items whose historical significance is belied by their unpretentious display.
In one corner, in a simple black frame, hangs a three-page telegram from 1968 that recounts McCain's refusal to accept early release from detention as a Vietnam prisoner of war. The once-classified cable from Averell Harriman, then the chief U.S. negotiator to the Paris Peace Talks, tells about a discussion he had with the top negotiator for the North Vietnamese. It states: "At tea break Le Duc Tho mentioned that DRV had intended to release Admiral McCain's son as one of the three pilots freed recently, but he had refused."

On a nearby table sits a fist-sized chunk of reddish rock mounted on a base with the inscription "Hoa Lo - Hanoi Hilton." It's another small but powerful reminder of McCain's five and a half years as a POW. In another corner, among family pictures, is a small framed photo showing the statue of McCain that the Vietnamese government erected in Hanoi to mark the spot where he was hauled out of a lake after he was shot down.

For all of the randomness, the office contents seem to fit together, with one jarring exception. There is only one glad-handing political photo in the office, and it is of McCain posing with the late Rev. Jerry Falwell and Falwell's wife, Macel, in 2006. The inscription to McCain from televangelist Falwell reads: "You are a great American, a national treasure and I am glad to say my good friend." That would be the same Falwell to whom McCain referred as an "agent of intolerance" during his first presidential run in 2000. They reconciled.

[Link: seattlepi.nwsource.com...]

re: #228 Tigger2005

LOL didn't you read my earlier posts? I'm an atheist.

No I didn't. Lately I seem to have seen plenty of the type of references mentioned. Yours sounded like another one, but then since we share the same views on that issue, you should know that calling oneself atheist is not a guarantee of insight in all areas.

re: #65 eaglewingz08

Gee what an amazing coincidence eugenics movement takes off just after Darwin publishes his main corpus on Evolution and survival of the fittest. It is at least some credit to Darwin, though not many of his followers, that he recanted shortly before his death of some of the more undesirable elements in the eugenics movement.

Its not a coincidence because it simply isn't so.

The precursors to modern Eugenics go back to the days of the ancient Greeks, having been described by Plato, and predating Darwin by thousands of years.

But even if Darwin's writings helped spark a modern eugenics movement, that doesn't invalidate the theory of evolution in any way.

I am posting this link to another earlier post of mine that happened late in a previous thread because I consider it to be one of my better ones, and unless I make it available where people are looking, it will remain unread and unappreciated. And my apologies in advance, but there is no way to say that that doesn't sound conceited. But I do consider it to be well worth peoples' perusal.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

re: #237 CyanSnowHawk

re: #238 least

re: #239 David IV of Georgia

;)

re: #208 A Kiwi Infidel

You will be able to buy this from you local sharia-compliant store in a very short while.

No. Not so. It will just look exactly like a sharia-compliant store except for the display of ceaply produced brochures explaining why they are the only true alternative to sharia—they are sharia's nemesis.

re: #212 buzzsawmonkey

Irony only works when you are bouncing something off of entrenched prejudice. That's one of the reasons that contemporary culture is so arid; it is irony all the way down.

Irony can be a piquant conversational condiment, used sparingly. It is not main course material.

Contemporary political culture is rife with entrenched prejudice.
That is why it is such a perfect target for a nice ironic reaming i.e. sarcasm.
I agree that any device is most effective when not overused, but in a milieu where pontification and dogma are the order of the day the more frequent use of sarcasm may be forgiven.

re: #245 Killgore Trout

Arrrrrrrrrrr!

re: #209 lhc996rider

Bollox to that!

Guinness and Connemara Single Malt are clear proof of Irish superiority.

And there's a theory out there that they are also the reason that the Irish haven't taken over the world.

Sharmuta I stuck around once I saw that Maine Report from Killgore. And, again, thanks for your patience and gracisousness. I'm almost out but was compelled by Killgore.

Hey Trout - are you really in Portland, ME?

re: #202 Eric Cartman's Conscience

#186 Mose

See #182

And thanks for the spell check.

If you're referring to me, I wanted to make sure inviolable was what you were talking about. Still interested in what you think is going to happen to my carrots. :P

re: #241 funky chicken

The insight into Obambis office helps reinforce what I've said about him. This kind of obsessive control over his environment is directly connected to his perceived lack of control over his life.

re: #251 mossley

If you're referring to me, I wanted to make sure inviolable was what you were talking about. Still interested in what you think is going to happen to my carrots. :P

They will prove delicious and help my eyes a great deal. Ah, "see" that?! I "see" your many valid points from above. :)

re: #179 Tigger2005

I came very, very close to tossing my cookies when I got an e-mail from The Center for Inquiry raving about that piece of filth British MP, what's his name...when he came here and spoke to Congress. I have an e-mail sitting in my inbox from them now titled "U.S. must embrace obligations of global citizenship." I can't even bring myself to open it.

George Galloway, and yes, he is an utter piece of scum. Just this week he's been (surprise-surprise) verbally fellating China and Russia. There has never been a fascist dictator he hasn't shrilled for.

Maybe I didn't express myself right...I think a lot of people are atheists not because they are rational, clear-eyed, honest, common-sense, hard-nosed realists, but rather because they are radical idealists, or utopians, or something like that, and quite willing to lie to themselves or believe impossible things if they want to. They reject the concept of God because they feel it's too limiting, not for mundane reasons like lack of evidence. It's obvious that many of them hold a lot of positions that they clearly have not reasoned themselves into. For example, nobody, applying reason, can possibly come to the conclusion that socialism or communism are good ideas. For these economic philosophies to work, all people must become perfectly selfless. What honest, common-sense, hard-nosed realist of a person can look at human history, at other human beings, or even at himself and imagine this ever happening?

I'm firmly of the opinion that you're making fundamental several mistakes here regarding atheism and skepticism (primarily trying to equate atheism into some sort of belief in itself, and secondarily setting up a false dichotomy on the one hand between both radicalism and utopianism and secularism), and if I may say so, probably engaging in quite a great deal of projection about the motives of those of us who reject all right-hand path religions. I do agree with you about the manifestations of collectivism however - history has shown that a level of forced organisation to anything beyond the tribe is doomed to disaster.

re: #250 Eric Cartman's Conscience

Seriously- please read my links- these people are not as innocuous as they present themselves.

re: #238 least

KT acknowledged his goof-up. Back at you, then.

re: #186 mossley

There is no scientific dissent with evolution.

What if two evolutionists disagree about something. Is that possible?

re: #65 eaglewingz08

The "eugenics movement" started with the Spartans and Plato's Republic, or haven't you any knowledge of history?

re: #255 Sharmuta

Seriously- please read my links- these people are not as innocuous as they present themselves.

I will definitely read up on the Wedge Theory. I promise you.

re: #209 lhc996rider

Bollox to that!

Guinness and Connemara Single Malt are clear proof of Irish superiority.

That would be an ecumenical matter.

re: #257 Mich-again

In fact, there are scientific debates, discussions & dissagreements on various points of evolutionary theory. That's how science works.