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Stealth Creationist Play Shot Down in California

Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:54:15 pm PDT

Yet another stealth creationist play was shot down by the courts yesterday in California. The Association of Christian Schools International, Calvary Chapel Christian School, and parents attending the Chapel School filed suit against the University of California, after UC ruled that several courses taught by the Christian schools did not meet admission requirements.

The reason for UC’s decision? You guessed it. The courses taught by these schools were full of creationist and anti-science rubbish.

The Questionable Authority has more: Quality Education Wins Again in the California Creationist Case.

For most of us, the rejection of the courses was nothing more than the natural consequence of the Christian schools’ decision to reject reality and teach fantasy. From their perspective, it represented an unconstitutional attack on their freedom of religion. The court, obviously, did not agree. To see why, we really need look no farther than the introduction to the biology textbook used in one of the rejected courses:

The people who prepared this book have tried consistently to put the Word of God first and science second...If...at any point God’s Word is not put first, the authors apologize.

That should be enough right there to explain why UC didn’t think that the plaintiffs were teaching a reasonable approximation of a college prep biology class. If it’s not enough, I wrote several posts examining the “textbook” used in some of the rejected biology classes last year. It’s very clear that the schools involved are teaching the worst kind of creationist garbage, and trying to pass it off as biology.

UPDATE at 8/13/08 6:32:04 pm:

And look who turns up again on the side of the creationists—Discovery Institute Senior Fellow Michael Behe: NCSE Resource — Victory in California creationism case.

Michael Behe, a proponent of “intelligent design” creationism, served as an expert witness for the plaintiffs, but his defense of the textbooks were unavailing. In his ruling, Judge Otero wrote, “Plaintiffs offer little admissible evidence to the contrary. Plaintiffs’ Biology expert, Dr. Michael Behe, submitted a declaration concluding that the BJU text mentions standard scientific content. ... However, Professor Behe ‘did not consider how much detail or depth’ the texts gave to this standard content. ... Therefore, Professor Behe fails to refute one of Professor Kennedy’s primary concerns that the nature of science, the theory of evolution, and critical thinking are not taught adequately. Accordingly, there is no genuine issue of material fact as to this issue. Defendants had a rational basis for rejecting Calvary Baptist’s proposed Biology course.”

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1 Macker  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:56:18pm

Is this a case of rendering unto Caesar?

2 rawmuse  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:57:05pm

My Christian brothers and sisters, there simply is no future in being a modern day flat earther.

3 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:58:12pm

I took AP biology many years ago...we disected cats.

4 Shay4l  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:58:39pm

How do they feel about classes promoting leftwing causes de jour?

Both should be disqualified.

5 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:59:10pm

re: #2 rawmuse

It's very important that Christians reject this stuff. The future belongs to those who show up.

6 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:59:37pm

Any indication what curriculum the parents had used that was rejected by the UC system?

7 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:00:43pm

re: #3 BignJames

Living ones? Must have been hard with them 'rigglin' 'bout n' 'owlin.

8 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:00:48pm

re: #2 rawmuse

My Christian brothers and sisters, there simply is no future in being a modern day flat earther.

Agreed.

To survive in this day and age you must understand, work with and employ science as it stands today. Without it you will not be able to operate in today's world.

9 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:01:11pm

re: #6 calcajun

Any indication what curriculum the parents had used that was rejected by the UC system?

Creation science.

10 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:02:57pm

re: #9 Sharmuta

No joke, Maynard. I meant that these families and schools use specific programs and texts put out by different publishers. Does anyone know the name of the text and/or program.

11 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:03:08pm

re: #9 Sharmuta


It went beyond that. Even their history classes were rejected for attributing historical events as miracles by god instead of actions by men. They had some really wacky stuff in their classes.

12 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:03:37pm

re: #7 calcajun


No....but have you ever seen a big pile of dead cats? Individually packaged, of course.

13 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:04:21pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Again, what were the names of the texts rejected by the UC system?

14 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:04:38pm

re: #7 calcajun

Really- is this the sort of thing the UC system should accept as a legitimate science class lesson? On the inside of a biology book from the school:

The people who prepared this book have tried consistently to put the Word of God first and science second...If...at any point God's Word is not put first, the authors apologize.

I'd toss that out as a legitimate science class myself.

15 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:04:51pm

Well, hooray for that much.

Now, they need to dis-credential (is that a word?) these guys.

16 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:09pm

re: #12 BignJames

No....but have you ever seen a big pile of dead cats? Individually packaged, of course.

Sounds like something that would warm the cockles of Hannibal Lecter's heart.

17 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:18pm

re: #12 BignJames

Used to work in a bio lab. Prepped dissection trays and had to prep frogs, fetal pigs, etc., for dissection.

Cleanup was neat, though foul smelling. Trays were cleaned by torching them...

18 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:20pm

When I was in biology class in high school, the class was surveyed about common genetic traits, like hair and eye color, right and left-handedness, whether one could curl one's tongue in a tube shape, whether one's earlobe was attached or detached, and I can't remember what else. The results were tabulated, then everyone stood together in front of the classroom. The teacher read off each trait, and what the majority of us had for that trait. Everyone who was in the minority had to go sit down. I was the only one standing at the end.

The allegorical moral of the story is that even if you are “right” on every issue, you could still end up standing all alone. It means nothing when you’re talking about genetics, but If you’re talking about standing on your principles, it means a lot.

19 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:23pm

re: #13 calcajun

I don't mean to sound rude- but there is a link provided, with other links contained therein.

20 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:50pm

re: #4 Shay4l

How do they feel about classes promoting leftwing causes de jour?

Both should be disqualified.

In lieu of the disallowed classes, and for extra credit, write an essay detailing how you feel about creationism vs. science.

UC Admissions

21 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:51pm

re: #10 calcajun

No joke, Maynard. I meant that these families and schools use specific programs and texts put out by different publishers. Does anyone know the name of the text and/or program.

They're using books published by Bob Jones University.

22 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:56pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

It went beyond that. Even their history classes were rejected for attributing historical events as miracles by god instead of actions by men. They had some really wacky stuff in their classes.

That would be the sort of history I blew my top over, a few threads back.

23 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:07:34pm

Oh. I thought that they were going to perform a PLAY. I was thinking "why can't they do Oklahoma or Cats like everyone else?

24 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:08:40pm

re: #13 calcajun
PDF.....
A SAMPLING OF REJECTED CALVARY CHAPEL CHRISTIAN SCHOOL COURSES

It also gives a brief description of why they were rejected. Take the descriptions with a grain of salt. This is hosted on a Christian site and they may have done some creative editing.

25 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:08:52pm

re: #17 lawhawk

Did a live frog in 10th grade biology...you had to "pith" the frog.

26 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:09:12pm

But how will World Net Daily spin this?

27 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:10:09pm

re: #18 wrenchwench

When I was in biology class in high school, the class was surveyed about common genetic traits, like hair and eye color, right and left-handedness, whether one could curl one's tongue in a tube shape, whether one's earlobe was attached or detached, and I can't remember what else. The results were tabulated, then everyone stood together in front of the classroom. The teacher read off each trait, and what the majority of us had for that trait. Everyone who was in the minority had to go sit down. I was the only one standing at the end.

Hah! I remember that class. 6th grade here. We didn't study the actual DNA codons behind any of those "genetic" traits though. I'd have enjoyed it more if they had. DNA is fun stuff.

I particularly like how it traces human ancestry to one woman in Africa, and how they're getting able to trace the climate in Africa 130-70,000 years ago based on bottlenecks. And don't forget Toba!

28 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:10:44pm

re: #21 Charles

They're using books published by Bob Jones University.


These kids could probably gain admission there.

29 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:11:02pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

I'm pretty sure they've already declared it an anti-Christian crusade.

30 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:11:03pm

Bwahahaha ... they got themselves an expert witness:

And they've got help - an expert witness. That's right, the Christian schools have found themselves someone who is willing to stand up and argue that a textbook that "puts the Word of God first and science second" really does teach standard science. Who, you might wonder, is the scientist brave enough to stand up to the harsh wind of reality and claim that teaching that, "man is a special creation that is completely separate from the physical universe and the animal kingdom," is just an addition to "standard" science? Professor Michael Joseph Behe of Lehigh University, that's who.

The Christian schools hired Dr. Behe (for $20,000) as an expert in "biology and physics."

31 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:11:27pm

re: #21 Charles

They're using books published by Bob Jones University.

BJU Press?

No innuendo to be made of that at all. None whatsoever. Nope. No sirree.

It sounds vaguely like the Staples Easy button for fellatio.

32 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:11:50pm

Behe's getting rich off this steaming pile of horse manure. At the expense of the gullible.

33 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:12:01pm

re: #30 Thanos

If you read the judges first summary judgment, Behe helped the UC and not the high schools. He really has a knack.

34 quickjustice  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:13:50pm

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." So why are the creationists hiding from the truth?

35 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:13:53pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

Here it is....
1ST AMENDMENT ON TRIAL
Ruling that Christian message 'offensive' appealed to Supreme Court

36 ASU86PE  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:15:14pm

I do not apologize for something like this, but as a Christian I am surprised and sad they filed a suit.

In Christian Education, my wife and I are a part of a school, it is usually accepted that the teaching of faith is not transferable. They (UC, et al secular education) have their rules and we Christians have ours. It is as if they purposefully set out to test their strength.

I do accept that certain ideas found in the Bible are scientific and others are not. I do not accept the flaunting of faith as a sword to drive unbelievers to continued unbelief through unsolicited confrontation.

37 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:17:00pm

I've come to the conclusion that the global warming stuff is nearly as bad for science as the I.D. stuff. I'm working my way through that post on the Bishop Hill blog...the shenanigans that have gone on around this issue are seriously damaging to scientific credibility.

38 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:17:52pm

re: #10 calcajun


No joke, Maynard. I meant that these families and schools use specific programs and texts put out by different publishers. Does anyone know the name of the text and/or program.

In case someone hasn't beat me to it already, here is the book I found by looking at one of the links provided in the post.

39 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:17:54pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I think that's a different case than the UC case, but it will be interesting to see if the high schools appeal this decision.

40 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:19:57pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

I read it and it does not name the Abeka books themselves, just the Bob Jones text and that's a little disturbing.

Playing devil's advocate, if the article linked portion of the substantive texts which the UC Regents rejected, that is one thing. But, to quote the introduction, which is worded to act to an agnostic or a humanist like a red flag to a bull, is something else.

What more, the article states:

The rejected courses covered the academic spectrum, with English, history, and science classes all failing to meet UC's scrutiny. The common element in the rejected courses was that they did not actually teach the material that UC requires from incoming students. Instead, the rejected courses taught a radically wrong "Christian perspective".

I can understand the science debate. What is troubling is the history and English portions. What were the offensive portions of those terxtbooks. Does anyone know where outside of Westlaw and ordering the briefs from the US Federal Court, the briefs might be available.

41 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:21:07pm

re: #37 Tigger2005

I've come to the conclusion that the global warming stuff is nearly as bad for science as the I.D. stuff. I'm working my way through that post on the Bishop Hill blog...the shenanigans that have gone on around this issue are seriously damaging to scientific credibility.

Which is, of course, the reason that we really like to keep politics out of science.

42 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:21:45pm

re: #38 Slumbering Behemoth
Found it already, thanks. Still would like to know what history and English texts failed to meet UC standards.

43 LEGION  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:21:51pm

Hamas' Christian convert: I've left a society that sanctifies terror.
A moment before beginning his supper, Masab, son of West Bank Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef, glances at the friend who has accompanied him to the restaurant where we met. They whisper a few words and then say grace, thanking God and Jesus for putting food on their plates.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Holy Cow!

44 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:22:34pm

re: #40 calcajun

Did you see Killgore's link in #24?

45 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:23:15pm

re: #30 Thanos

The Christian schools hired Dr. Behe (for $20,000) as an expert in "biology and physics."

...wow, what a shocker... I wonder if Dr. Behe would ever do something like that for free? Probably happen on the same day evil, alien monkeys fly outta my butt.

46 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:23:19pm

re: #43 LEGION

Hamas' Christian convert: I've left a society that sanctifies terror.
A moment before beginning his supper, Masab, son of West Bank Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef, glances at the friend who has accompanied him to the restaurant where we met. They whisper a few words and then say grace, thanking God and Jesus for putting food on their plates.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Holy Cow!

That's Hinduism--the guy's a Christian. Come on. Also, if he had not relocated to So Cal, he would not be long for this world.

47 LEGION  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:23:52pm

[Link: www.anncoulter.com...]

EVEN BY TRIAL LAWYER STANDARDS, EDWARDS A REAL SLEAZEBAG

Ann has another great column ripping Johnny boy and Kennedy- a must read!

48 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:27:50pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

Ah, you're right. That is a different case.

49 LEGION  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:27:55pm

re: #46 calcajun

Be quiet you. I say 'Holy Cow' as a curse alternative in memory of the great NY Yankees ballplayer and announcer Phil Rizzuto. Whatareyou- another damn foreigner? Nuttin to do with hindus. And I read the article too- yes- he leaves SoCal he is dead meat. If he stays and they find him- he is doomed anyway- anywhere- anyhow.

50 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:28:05pm

re: #3 BignJames

I took AP biology many years ago...we disected cats.

WHAT?

51 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:28:09pm

re: #47 LEGION

[Link: www.anncoulter.com...]

EVEN BY TRIAL LAWYER STANDARDS, EDWARDS A REAL SLEAZEBAG

Ann has another great column ripping Johnny boy and Kennedy- a must read!

Any man who needs a woman's compact to check his coif is beyond vain.

52 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:28:28pm

I think the fact remains that the UC system has the right to determine what standards they can use to allow students into their universities. The Christian schools do not have the right to demand the UC change it's guidelines if the guidelines are Constitutionally sound- which the judge determined they were.

53 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:29:45pm

Now, if we can only get college professors to stop teaching irrational and discredited economic theories.

54 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:29:47pm

re: #50 FrogMarch


Frogs were first year biology.

55 LEGION  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:30:24pm

re: #51 calcajun

Now you are cooking with gas! You are on the mark. So Clinton gets to talk about Kennedy at the demo-RAT convention but Edwards is banned? HUH?

56 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:30:51pm

re: #53 Tigger2005

Now, if we can only get college professors to stop teaching irrational and discredited economic theories.

Seriously.

57 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:31:14pm

re: #49 LEGION

Be quiet you. I say 'Holy Cow' as a curse alternative in memory of the great NY Yankees ballplayer and announcer Phil Rizzuto. Whatareyou- another damn foreigner? Nuttin to do with hindus. And I read the article too- yes- he leaves SoCal he is dead meat. If he stays and they find him- he is doomed anyway- anywhere- anyhow.

"Phil Rizutto"? That phrase, my friend was coined by Harry Caray

58 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:32:17pm

re: #55 LEGION

Now you are cooking with gas! You are on the mark. So Clinton gets to talk about Kennedy at the demo-RAT convention but Edwards is banned? HUH?

That's right. Bill was never stupid enough to sire a bastard. Edwards, on the other hand...

59 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:32:23pm

re: #53 Tigger2005

Now, if we can only get college professors to stop teaching irrational and discredited economic theories.

And irrational and discredited political theories.

60 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:32:31pm

What's up with trying to divert this thread into other topics?

61 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:32:31pm

re: #54 BignJames

Frogs were first year biology.

I like frogs. dissected one myself in HS. Cats? I find that very disturbing. I hope they were dead anyway.

62 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:33:06pm

re: #53 Tigger2005

Now, if we can only get college professors to stop teaching irrational and discredited economic theories.

"Now go do that voodoo (economics) that you do SO WELL!"

63 RememberSekhmet?  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:33:30pm

If I may be so blunt:

One person and a little faith can move mountains. But you don't get that faith by sticking your head in the sand and rejecting everything not mentioned in a book written when ones own ancestors were wearing furs and throwing stone spears at one another (at least on this side of the Atlantic---on the other side, it was furs and bronze spears).

Faith is knowing that even in adversity, you will never face it alone. The same force that created the universe is standing right next to you, in your heart, and if you just hold on to that, you can get through anything. How is creation science or revisionist history supposed to give that faith to you?

If you don't understand that God loves you, and is caring for you this very second, and need to fetishize some ancient book, that's not faith. Scriptures and teachings of any sort are meant to be read and understood, not waved in front of scary things to make them go away. If that's your relationship with God, please exchange your scriptures for chicken bones. They might work better for you.

64 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:33:38pm

re: #49 LEGION

Be quiet you. I say 'Holy Cow' as a curse alternative in memory of the great NY Yankees ballplayer and announcer Phil Rizzuto. Whatareyou- another damn foreigner? Nuttin to do with hindus. And I read the article too- yes- he leaves SoCal he is dead meat. If he stays and they find him- he is doomed anyway- anywhere- anyhow.

He's not exactly hiding. The first story I read about him identified the City he lives in and the Church he attends, which I won't repeat here, but I could find him quickly enough if I wanted.

65 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:33:43pm

re: #51 calcajun

re: #47 LEGION

[Link: [Link: www.anncoulter.com...]...]

EVEN BY TRIAL LAWYER STANDARDS, EDWARDS A REAL SLEAZEBAG

Ann has another great column ripping Johnny boy and Kennedy- a must read!

Any man who needs a woman's compact to check his coif is beyond vain.


Agreed! And any woman who needs a compact to check her adam's apple is...wait, what?!?

66 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:35:29pm

re: #60 Charles

Fine. Spoil our fun. Charles, I suppose you wouldn't know what the historical and English textbooks with which the Regents took umbrage? The links don't help.

67 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:37:51pm

re: #66 calcajun

Maybe these:

[Link: www.bjupress.com...]

68 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:38:29pm

I've wondered recently about the overall impact these teachings may have on these children in the future in that when these kids are exposed to the truth, might it not backfire on their previous teachers and even their parents for these kids to realize they've basically been lied to? So I wonder if this is more damaging to these kids beyond just their education.

69 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:38:52pm

re: #64 CyanSnowHawk

He's not exactly hiding. The first story I read about him identified the City he lives in and the Church he attends, which I won't repeat here, but I could find him quickly enough if I wanted.

No. Per some articles, he is in So Cal, because the longevity of apostates ain't so great in Syria. In fact, I think that dad might have bought him the plane ticket here. He will be fine; there's little chance that some random fanatic will hunt him down. But, there's always the chance that one of Dad's political enemies might come after him.

70 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:39:54pm

re: #66 calcajun

Fine. Spoil our fun. Charles, I suppose you wouldn't know what the historical and English textbooks with which the Regents took umbrage? The links don't help.

I thought that was interesting. Here's my guess:

The historical textbook was the Bible, and only the Bible.

The English textbook claimed that the English language originated when God confused the language at the Tower of Babel. It also used King James English, because that's the language God wrote the Bible in.

71 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:40:37pm

Uh, oh. Going OT seems to be on shaky ground, now. Be vewwwy careful. ;)

72 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:41:10pm

Look at this book:

[Link: www.bjupress.com...]

Money quote:

"The
text also presents Christian positions on biotechnology, abortion, evolution, homosexuality, ecology, disease,
and drugs."

73 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:41:23pm

re: #63 RememberSekhmet?

If you don't understand that God loves you, and is caring for you this very second, and need to fetishize some ancient book, that's not faith. Scriptures and teachings of any sort are meant to be read and understood, not waved in front of scary things to make them go away. If that's your relationship with God, please exchange your scriptures for chicken bones. They might work better for you.


Love the avatar RS.

So you interpret how to handle your faith along one path, and these others do so differently. Ridiculing their path is hardly a way to win converts.

74 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:42:02pm

re: #71 Cartman

Uh, oh. Going OT seems to be on shaky ground, now. Be vewwwy careful. ;)

Uh, no. Sometimes it's pretty obvious what's going on, though.

75 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:42:10pm
"Both vessels are running 15 to 20 minutes behind schedule. We apologize for any incontinence this may cause you."

Alert message sent out by WA State Ferry system.

76 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:42:54pm

re: #74 Charles

Uh, no. Sometimes it's pretty obvious what's going on, though.


If the Georgian conflict goes nuclear, you CAN go off topic!

77 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:42:58pm

re: #67 Basho

Thanks, but these are still the science texts. The history texts are what I want to see.

If there is a curriculum which Calvary and many home schoolers would use that many here would agree with, it would be a traditional US and world history course. If anything, I think the UC system might not like some of its potential students not have gone through the social re-engineering being taught in many public schools these days.

78 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:43:12pm

re: #68 Sharmuta


I've wondered recently about the overall impact these teachings may have on these children in the future in that when these kids are exposed to the truth, might it not backfire on their previous teachers and even their parents for these kids to realize they've basically been lied to? So I wonder if this is more damaging to these kids beyond just their education.

I don't remember exactly what it was like to discover that all the adults in my life were lying to me about Santa Claus, but I know it wasn't a good feeling.

79 subguyss  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:43:21pm

I went to a private Catholic HS for four years. We had Brothers who taught our theology classes. The Brothers made it a point that the numbers and stories written in the bible, particularly the Old Testament, were symbolic. Certain numbers were used to represent certain things the writers were trying to get across. The stories were not literal truth but symbolism to get a point through.

Why can't some of these fundamentalists come to grips with the fact that, if the Bible were literally true, either humanity would have been extinct after Cane died (after all, who would he have had kids with) or if, like some interpretations of the bible say, Adam and Eve had many other children after Cain and Able, then the bible endorses incest!

80 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:43:24pm

re: #66 calcajun

I liked to some of the rejected courses and text books upthread for you. You can continue to ignore it if you want but don't say you haven't been given the information.

81 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:44:32pm

re: #70 Tigger2005

I may have missed that. Is that actually set forth in the article? I doubt seriously that Calvary would be that dogmatic.

82 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:44:37pm

re: #71 Cartman

Missing a sarc tag there? Don't feed into paranoia.

83 Luigi  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:44:47pm

Today was the day that immortality began to become a reality. The so-called transhumanist ideal is for humans to use biotechnology to circumvent the frailties of the flesh: To upload themselves into something a little more permanently renewable than this mortal coil.

British and American scientists have uploaded parts of a mammalian brain into the control module of a little robot. The robot thinks. Therefore it is.

[Link: technology.newscientist.com...]

84 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:44:55pm

re: #77 calcajun

Thanks, but these are still the science texts. The history texts are what I want to see.


See #42

85 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:02pm

re: #79 subguyss

I went to a private Catholic HS for four years. We had Brothers who taught our theology classes. The Brothers made it a point that the numbers and stories written in the bible, particularly the Old Testament, were symbolic. Certain numbers were used to represent certain things the writers were trying to get across. The stories were not literal truth but symbolism to get a point through.

That's exactly what I was taught in Catholic school. We seem to have taken more than a few steps backward in this country.

86 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:08pm

re: #77 calcajun

Thanks, but these are still the science texts. The history texts are what I want to see.

If there is a curriculum which Calvary and many home schoolers would use that many here would agree with, it would be a traditional US and world history course. If anything, I think the UC system might not like some of its potential students not have gone through the social re-engineering being taught in many public schools these days.

[Link: www.bjupress.com...]

"Uncover the history of our nation through this comprehensive survey rich in Christian insight. "

87 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:19pm

re: #74 Charles

Didn't mean to be critical. Actually, I see a lot of OT lately, way to early in some topics. I've been guilty of it myself, but am working on it.

88 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:29pm

re: #69 calcajun

No. Per some articles, he is in So Cal, because the longevity of apostates ain't so great in Syria. In fact, I think that dad might have bought him the plane ticket here. He will be fine; there's little chance that some random fanatic will hunt him down. But, there's always the chance that one of Dad's political enemies might come after him.

True, but I think an unlikely eventuality. Although gaining a higher profile, combined with his Father's rising status might increase the odds on that. If this really gets big, he may have to hide.

89 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:58pm

re: #66 calcajun

Fine. Spoil our fun. Charles, I suppose you wouldn't know what the historical and English textbooks with which the Regents took umbrage? The links don't help.

Read this page from links above...
Saved you a few clicks.

90 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:46:01pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

I must have missed your post. All I have been seeing is the science text books. Thanks

91 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:46:33pm

re: #68 Sharmuta

I've wondered recently about the overall impact these teachings may have on these children in the future in that when these kids are exposed to the truth, might it not backfire on their previous teachers and even their parents for these kids to realize they've basically been lied to? So I wonder if this is more damaging to these kids beyond just their education.

Dawkins calls it child abuse, in a general sense. Maybe he has a point.

92 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:47:50pm

re: #77 calcajun

Thanks, but these are still the science texts. The history texts are what I want to see.

If there is a curriculum which Calvary and many home schoolers would use that many here would agree with, it would be a traditional US and world history course. If anything, I think the UC system might not like some of its potential students not have gone through the social re-engineering being taught in many public schools these days.

I think that's nonsense- other private and religious schools are not having this issue.

93 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:48:18pm

re: #89 jcm

Thanks, but that is--unless I am missing something-- just the biology book.

94 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:48:50pm

re: #93 calcajun

Did you read the link in #24?

95 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:48:51pm

re: #82 Slumbering Behemoth

Missing a sarc tag there? Don't feed into paranoia.

I'm far from paranoid. I leave that shit to leftist wackos. See my #87.

96 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:48:57pm

re: #93 calcajun

Look at #86. Enough with the books already.

97 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:49:34pm

WorldNetDaily's recent article on this case shows why I don't link to them. This is an incredibly dishonest summation, intended to drum up Christian outrage:

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

98 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:49:52pm

re: #79 subguyss

I went to a private Catholic HS for four years. We had Brothers who taught our theology classes. The Brothers made it a point that the numbers and stories written in the bible, particularly the Old Testament, were symbolic. Certain numbers were used to represent certain things the writers were trying to get across. The stories were not literal truth but symbolism to get a point through.

I love the Biblical numbers. Seven, of course, represents completion. Six, therefore, represents incompletion, or unwholeness. Small wonder 666 is used to represent the Devil (saying something 3X was meaningful, as when Peter denies Jesus 3 times and later affirmed Jesus three times).

The Tribes of Israel numbered 12. Some have connected this to the twelve signs of the zodiac. The disciples numbered 12. The elect in heaven numbered 144,000, a multiple of twelve.

40, a very important number, representing "the fullness of time." The Israelis wandered in the desert 40 years. Moses, Elijah, and Jesus fasted for 40 days.

When all this is taken literally, the symbolism is missed.

99 RememberSekhmet?  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:49:52pm

I'll be back soon. Need Tupperware for the remains of dinner

100 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:50:37pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

But how will World Net Daily spin this?

That made me LOL :)

101 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:50:54pm

re: #81 calcajun

I may have missed that. Is that actually set forth in the article? I doubt seriously that Calvary would be that dogmatic.

LOL was joke! I did say "here's my guess."

102 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:51:56pm

re: #68 Sharmuta

I've wondered recently about the overall impact these teachings may have on these children in the future in that when these kids are exposed to the truth, might it not backfire on their previous teachers and even their parents for these kids to realize they've basically been lied to? So I wonder if this is more damaging to these kids beyond just their education.

That happened to me a few times. I wanted to be Christian but I kept running into the types who said, to be Christian you had to believe [long list of implausibilities, ranging from a worldwide Flood to Isaiah's "prophecy" about Cyrus].

I am Christian now, not because I believe all of it now, but because the Church Tradition forces us to concentrate on Jesus and good works, not on blind obedience to detail. (This is a Catholic view, and I am Catholic; but thinking Protestants are able to appreciate the Church Tradition too. Tertullian, for instance, is far more a Protestant saint than a Catholic one. The Jews also have a "talmudic" approach to the Bible which also takes account of their own Tradition; fundamentalist Jews are "Karaites" don't speak for mainline Jews, IIRC)

103 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:52:08pm

re: #79 subguyss

I went to a private Catholic HS for four years. We had Brothers who taught our theology classes. The Brothers made it a point that the numbers and stories written in the bible, particularly the Old Testament, were symbolic. Certain numbers were used to represent certain things the writers were trying to get across. The stories were not literal truth but symbolism to get a point through.

That is the present view, of some, but if these were meant to be symbolisms would not the original writers have given some indication that that is how they were to be read?

For what it is worth, we may consider there to be symbolism, but I have my doubts that the actual writers did so.

104 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:52:17pm
105 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:53:14pm

re: #78 Slumbering Behemoth

I personally think there's something to be said for that. I don't like lying to children.

re: #91 Naso Tang

It does cause me to wonder. Perhaps he does have a point.

106 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:53:25pm

re: #97 Charles

Heh, I guess one can't even parody those guys.

107 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:54:15pm

Apply at Oral Roberts or Biloa U?

Just sayin'

108 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:54:58pm

re: #103 Naso Tang

That is the present view, of some, but if these were meant to be symbolisms would not the original writers have given some indication that that is how they were to be read?

For what it is worth, we may consider there to be symbolism, but I have my doubts that the actual writers did so.

The symbolism was understood. People of the time knew what it meant, they didn't have to have it spelled out for them. Just like we have symbols today and don't have to have them spelled out to us every time we see them.

109 rawmuse  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:55:20pm

re: #104 buzzsawmonkey

I'm surprised that Tupperware hasn't branched out into casual clothing. "Tupperwear" would seem to be a logical next step.

I think Devo did that already, in the late 70's.

110 fried spam  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:55:30pm

re: #6 calcajun

Any indication what curriculum the parents had used that was rejected by the UC system?

I don't know that, but it's interesting that the current website for secondary school has a blurb about AP biology. They talk about AP biology, with requirements to read the Cliff notes before school.

The interesting thing is that the cliff notes don't shy away from evolution.

111 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:55:58pm

re: #93 calcajun

Thanks, but that is--unless I am missing something-- just the biology book.

You don't see a problem with this?

The Christian must evaluate the source of a statement. Scienitific statements must be based on observation or else they are mere guesses. There is nothing wrong with a guess, as long as it is clearly labed as a guess or belief. But Christians must disregard those guesses and beliefs that contradict the Bible.

I'm a Christian, I have a huge problem with that statement.

112 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:56:06pm

I stayed at a Holidy In Express last night. Had a real freaky dream.

113 subguyss  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:56:56pm

re: #104 buzzsawmonkey

I'm surprised that Tupperware hasn't branched out into casual clothing. "Tupperwear" would seem to be a logical next step.

Okay, that made me laugh.

114 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:01pm

Has Putin devolved into a fucking scorpion?

115 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:11pm

Aw, man.

First silver for Phelps.

116 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:32pm

My brother attended Christian schools from fourth grade all the way through High School graduation. He had no problems whatsoever gaining admission into more than one "secular" college to obtain his master's degree.

Admission standards are nothing new in the UC system, or any other state university system. That political, special interest groups would try to twist this into an issue of religious oppression is disgusting and deplorable. It is an insult to oh so many groups who have suffered (and in some areas of the world, still suffer) real life oppression, religious or otherwise.

117 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:38pm

Kidding.

118 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:52pm

re: #109 rawmuse

I think Devo did that already, in the late 70's.

Thought that was Rubbermaid

119 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:59:18pm

re: #117 Cognito

GAH! You got me.

120 fried spam  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:59:34pm

re: #103 Naso Tang

If one says today "it's raining cats and dogs", do you call the SPCA?

;>

One of the most prevalent examples of a colloquialism is 'forty days and forty nights'. As I understand it, that meant, at the time, no one is really quite sure how long of a time it was.

121 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:59:34pm

So I wonder what happens when all the US (Saudi-funded) madrassah graduates enter college.

I kind of expect UC to accept their Anti-Semitic credits fully.

122 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:01:15pm

re: #108 Tigger2005

The symbolism was understood. People of the time knew what it meant, they didn't have to have it spelled out for them. Just like we have symbols today and don't have to have them spelled out to us every time we see them.

You say that as if you know. I'm not an expert on biblical literature, but I don't recall seeing independent critiques from those times explaining that fact, and I have read enough in my life to be accustomed to symbolism being quite explicitly or implicitly indicated by most writers.

We have enough simple examples right here of comments being misunderstood by the simple omission of a "/", to conclude that most readers of supposedly symbolic stories will read them first as literal and only after explanation understand the symbolism intended.

I suppose you are suggesting that peoples in the past were more intelligent, educated and insightful than those of today?

123 neocon hippie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:01:42pm

re: #37 Tigger2005

Indeed. Both ID and global warming hysteria are junk science, whose purpose and effect is to undermine rational scientific inquiry and ultimately, knowledge itself. The former coming from a literalist Christian persepctive, the other from a hybrid of Gaia worship and postmodernist thought.

124 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:01:46pm

WHAT IN THE WIDE, WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS IS GOIN' ON HERE?

125 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:01:55pm

re: #66 calcajun

Fine. Spoil our fun. Charles, I suppose you wouldn't know what the historical and English textbooks with which the Regents took umbrage? The links don't help.

It might be helpful for you to examine the "rational educational standards" of Gary Nash, one of the leading lights of the UC system and the chief arbiter of proper history courses in that state.

Californians may remember him from the mid 1990's, when he tried to impose his United States History Document onto not just California, but the entire country, under the aegis of the National Ed Standards Act and Goals 2000 Ed bill. (The effort was finally stopped, but not until Nancy Kasselbaum led a drive to squelch it in the Senate.)

I do not have the document itself at hand, but I still have some papers re this, including a fine description of Gary Nash's standards for American history education given by the Textbook League in 1994 or 1995.

"The US Hist Document dealt in tribalism, victimism, anti-intellectualism, and fake anthropology, and was animated by a stark animosity toward Europeans and towards the US itself. ....It emphasizes American follies and failures, minimizes American successes, and buries anything that did not conform to multi-cult doctrines and tastes....................It eradicated science and medicine from American history, ignored or trivialized the effects of science and technology on American life, and had hidden our country's identity as the foremost scientific and technological power of the 20th century................all a reflection of the multi-cult's general aversion to intellectuality and their specific hostility toward natural science, an intellectual system created by white Europeans."

Ah yes. Gary Nash will defend us from the forces of unreason!

126 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:02:05pm

re: #114 MandyManners

Has Putin devolved into a fucking scorpion?

Always was, after all, he is Russian.

127 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:02:10pm

re: #119 Basho

GAH! You got me.

I'm actually sort of glad to know I'm not the only one wound up over this.

Somehow the significance of it -- being in China, the aggression from Russia, the question of American skill -- seems higher than I ever expected.

128 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:02:10pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

129 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:03:12pm

re: #124 Occasional Reader

WHAT IN THE WIDE, WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS IS GOIN' ON HERE?

I don't know why, but that absolutely cracked me up.

Memories of Chris Farley, I think.

130 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:04:02pm
131 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:04:23pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

So I wonder what happens when all the US (Saudi-funded) madrassah graduates enter college.

I kind of expect UC to accept their Anti-Semitic credits fully.

What about their notions of Islamic-based creationism?

132 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:04:56pm

re: #105 Sharmuta

I personally think there's something to be said for that. I don't like lying to children.

I have a friend that has taught all of his children, from day one, there is no Santa, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy, etc. He tells them from the start that Christmas is about Jesus, Easter is about Jesus, and the Tooth Fairy is just some silly BS.

Some think this is harsh, I think it is a good start at building a bond of trust.

133 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:00pm

re: #77 calcajun

I think you can rest assured that any high school using Zinn's People's History of the United States won't run into trouble w/ the UC system.

134 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:36pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

Exactly- if a Christian school could get a University system to change their standards, it would open the floodgates to every other group to whine about persecution and unfair standards. Either we accept that there are standards or we accept chaos.

135 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:39pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

There seems to be a theory of Islamic-Creationist-Russo conspiracy emerging, here.

Seems far more likely to me that there are some tremendously disparate people in the world who happen to have something in common.

136 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:48pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

Oh, I'm sure they are, and I am sure they would.

They don't need it, though.

The politically-correct school systems like UC will roll over and play "diverse" on command.

137 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:58pm
138 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:06:17pm

re: #123 neocon hippie

Indeed. Both ID and global warming hysteria are junk science, whose purpose and effect is to undermine rational scientific inquiry and ultimately, knowledge itself. The former coming from a literalist Christian persepctive, the other from a hybrid of Gaia worship and postmodernist thought.

Global warming is not junk science, but it is debatable regarding the degree to which we need to beat ourselves up about it.

ID is however junk science.

It is not good form to throw in an alleged comparison with a known piece of junk, to make a supposedly equivalent statement about something unrelated.

139 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:07:20pm

re: #132 Slumbering Behemoth

You know, I have no problem with the runny facade about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, etc.

Literally, this has been a staple of Christmas for decades upon decades.

If it was such a problem, I think we would have more problems with adults than we do today.

140 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:07:34pm

re: #133 wolfie

I think you can rest assured that any high school using Zinn's People's History of the United States won't run into trouble w/ the UC system.

I say that conservatives should use this as a precedent to raise hell against that very thing.

141 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:08:22pm

re: #86 Basho

Thanks--that's what I was looking for. Is this the rejected textbook?

I read the notes to the teacher and, frankly, I don't know of many teachers who would try to take that approach. Hell, the Jesuits had me for 12 years and I was never asked to try and spot God's providence in any act.

The "acid test" is whether or not the substantive history corresponds with what is normally accepted. The conclusions to which the teacher is supposed to lead the class are dubious (and I'm a Christian) but what I saw of the facts appears to fit with generally accepted historical doctrine (with the exception of Columbus and a "round world" view; everyone thought the world was round in his day--including the churchmen)

Obviously, I can't read the entire book. But, I cannot find a critique where the substance was challenged.

Thanks again.

142 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:08:52pm

re: #126 Naso Tang

Always was, after all, he is Russian.

Strange place. Source of conquerers from the git-go.

143 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:08:57pm

re: #91 Naso Tang

Dawkins calls it child abuse, in a general sense. Maybe he has a point.

Yup! Let's round up the kids and send them off to the Isle of Pines!
(Excuse me, I keep forgetting that after the revolution it was renamed the Isle of Youth.)

144 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:09:22pm

re: #131 MandyManners

What about their notions of Islamic-based creationism?

Well, we have a precedent here, don't we? All well and good - they will have to retake Biology. (AND I FULLY SUPPORT THAT-CREATIONISM IS RELIGION, NOT A SCIENCE COURSE)

But their Joo-Hating will be up to snuff. And accepted.

Are we going to keep the kids who have had "apes and pigs" drummed into them from polluting the educational purity gained here?

Hell no we aren't. The bowing and scraping to Islamists is already rampant.

145 rawmuse  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:10:21pm

re: #112 Noam Sayin'
That was a fun game!

146 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:10:45pm

re: #140 Zimriel

I say that conservatives should use this as a precedent to raise hell against that very thing.

Agreed. But unless conservatives cut ties with the fundi-creationists, no one will take them seriously :(

147 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:10:55pm

re: #135 Cognito

Cognito, it would seem that way.

However, the very fact one influential Saudi was able to get a major publisher to not print a book in this country leaves me very concerned anymore.

I am starting to think the are extremely strange bedfellows.

148 rawmuse  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:19pm

re: #118 Mr Pancakes

Thought that was Rubbermaid

Perhaps with some Corningware thrown in as accessories.

149 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:22pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Exactly- if a Christian school could get a University system to change their standards, it would open the floodgates to every other group to whine about persecution and unfair standards. Either we accept that there are standards or we accept chaos.

I guarantee via the magic of PC that UC will accept whatever filth crawls out of a Wahabist "school" in the US or they will get sued and lose, not necessarily in that order.

150 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:27pm

re: #144 OldLineTexan

Well, we have a precedent here, don't we? All well and good - they will have to retake Biology. (AND I FULLY SUPPORT THAT-CREATIONISM IS RELIGION, NOT A SCIENCE COURSE)

But their Joo-Hating will be up to snuff. And accepted.

Are we going to keep the kids who have had "apes and pigs" drummed into them from polluting the educational purity gained here?

Hell no we aren't. The bowing and scraping to Islamists is already rampant.

It probably won't go that far, but you can bet that UC colleges will accept Edward Said and Karen Armstrong as accurate high-school fare.

151 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:48pm

re: #142 MandyManners

Strange place. Source of conquerers from the git-go.

They got their asses conquered from time to time, too. (Tatars, f'rinstance.)

152 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:51pm

re: #142 MandyManners

Strange place. Source of conquerers from the git-go.

They developed their problems after the little Swedes whupped their asses way back when. Trying to get even ever since. Funny thing though, my DNA suggests that's where my genes came from, after Africa of course.

153 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:57pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Now I see it. Thanks.
Can't comment on 'em until I read some of them.

Thanks again.

154 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:12:21pm

re: #141 calcajun

Meh... not sure if it is the exact book. Compare it with #24's link.

155 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:12:22pm

re: #138 Naso Tang

Global warming in the context of Al Gore's presentation is junk science.

Just as much as there are ulterior motives behind this topic, the same exist behind global warming.

Kyoto.

156 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:12:42pm

re: #147 formercorpsman

Cognito, it would seem that way.

However, the very fact one influential Saudi was able to get a major publisher to not print a book in this country leaves me very concerned anymore.

I am starting to think the are extremely strange bedfellows.

I hadn't heard about that. Is there a further detail I could use to search for a story about it?

157 drmark  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:12:44pm

This is a good call by the courts. These schools should have a real biology text /class and present their biblical views in theology classes or philosophy class.
To sue the UC on this really poor form. re: #97 Charles

WorldNetDaily's recent article on this case shows why I don't link to them. This is an incredibly dishonest summation, intended to drum up Christian outrage:

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]


I agree about WND... Pretty average for them.

158 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:13:26pm

re: #143 wolfie

Yup! Let's round up the kids and send them off to the Isle of Pines!
(Excuse me, I keep forgetting that after the revolution it was renamed the Isle of Youth.)

LOL. I think you've used that line before. No doubt I have repeated myself too, but I think not often to the same poster.

159 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:13:52pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Exactly- if a Christian school could get a University system to change their standards, it would open the floodgates to every other group to whine about persecution and unfair standards. Either we accept that there are standards or we accept chaos.

My son attends a Christian school.

Our graduates attend prestigious universities all over this globe.

IT AIN'T THE FAULT OF CHRISTIANS!

160 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:13:55pm

Oh, ha, I see it.

I thought I was on an open thread.

hahaha

161 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:18pm

re: #152 Naso Tang

They developed their problems after the little Swedes whupped their asses way back when. Trying to get even ever since. Funny thing though, my DNA suggests that's where my genes came from, after Africa of course.

I thought the Rus were from Sweden, originally?

162 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:25pm

re: #137 buzzsawmonkey

Wilderness of Zinn.

Turn right at the Gates or Mordor, keep going past Oz, take left at Narnia and then click your heels three times.

163 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:26pm

re: #156 Cognito

Robert O. Collins, Alms for Jihad.

There was also another just this past week, the name escapes me.

Look up Rachel Ehrenfled (sp) as well.

164 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:38pm

re: #120 fried spam

If one says today "it's raining cats and dogs", do you call the SPCA?

;>

One of the most prevalent examples of a colloquialism is 'forty days and forty nights'. As I understand it, that meant, at the time, no one is really quite sure how long of a time it was.

The forty days and forty nights is originally a reference to how long the rain causing the great flood of Noah lasted (Genesis 7:12). Forty in Hebrew literature is a number representing completeness or sufficiency. Thus it is recorded that many of ancient Israel's and Judah's kings lived exactly forty years.

165 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:54pm

re: #163 formercorpsman

Robert O. Collins, Alms for Jihad.

There was also another just this past week, the name escapes me.

Look up Rachel Ehrenfled (sp) as well.

Hey, thanks.

166 faraway  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:15:07pm

Another OT, but the NYT now has another "conservative gadfly" Jerome R. Corsi.
NYT article
Dont worry, it's in the first line, so you don't have to read the whole thing.

Charles is not the only gadfly this week.

167 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:15:39pm

re: #155 formercorpsman

Kyoto.

Roll Over politics, but nevertheless not automatically junk science.

168 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:15:45pm

re: #136 OldLineTexan

Oh, I'm sure they are, and I am sure they would.

They don't need it, though.

The politically-correct school systems like UC will roll over and play "diverse" on command.

I think it's a dangerous precedent to set if the courts were to allow special interests to dictate state academic standards. The standards meet Constitutional requirements, the high schools desired standards don't. The court did the right thing- it protected the Constitution.

169 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:15:49pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

To be honest Killgore, I would venture to say that they are getting much more help from the leftist end of that spectrum in academia.

170 jorline  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:16:05pm

re: #112 Noam Sayin'

I stayed at a Holidy In Express last night. Had a real freaky dream.

I know I'm getting older...becoming a geek, I did the whole exercise...lol

After eight knee surgeries this stuff interest me.

171 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:16:28pm

re: #168 Sharmuta

I think it's a dangerous precedent to set if the courts were to allow special interests to dictate state academic standards. The standards meet Constitutional requirements, the high schools desired standards don't. The court did the right thing- it protected the Constitution.

Yes.

And when it comes to Islamist miseducation, they will cave.

172 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:16:34pm

re: #116 Slumbering Behemoth

My brother attended Christian schools from fourth grade all the way through High School graduation. He had no problems whatsoever gaining admission into more than one "secular" college to obtain his master's degree.

Admission standards are nothing new in the UC system, or any other state university system. That political, special interest groups would try to twist this into an issue of religious oppression is disgusting and deplorable. It is an insult to oh so many groups who have suffered (and in some areas of the world, still suffer) real life oppression, religious or otherwise.


Perhaps some Californians can help me with this. (?)

If you look at UC standards, you will see that the top 4% of students in any graduating class from an accredited school are automatically admitted. I am going to guess that this silly "standard" was instituted to allow for affirmative action by stealth. The top 4% at a lousy school teach "people's history" and ebonics get in. Period.
It's okay for them to have a reserve seat, so to speak. And you can bet they won't have their schools held to any standard beyond political correctness.

173 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:17:32pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

So I wonder what happens when all the US (Saudi-funded) madrassah graduates enter college.

I kind of expect UC to accept their Anti-Semitic credits fully.

BINGO !
And their creationism will be okay, too. Count on it.

174 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:17:36pm

re: #125 wolfie

Thanks. He sounds like Anthony Zerbe's character from "The Omega Man"

175 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:17:45pm

re: #144 OldLineTexan

Well, we have a precedent here, don't we? All well and good - they will have to retake Biology. (AND I FULLY SUPPORT THAT-CREATIONISM IS RELIGION, NOT A SCIENCE COURSE)

But their Joo-Hating will be up to snuff. And accepted.

Are we going to keep the kids who have had "apes and pigs" drummed into them from polluting the educational purity gained here?

Hell no we aren't. The bowing and scraping to Islamists is already rampant.

Let me know when madrassa-educated students apply/are accepted into the American college system...and survive.

NOT EVERYONE IN HIGHER EDUCATION IS A COMPLETE DUMB-FUCK OR A JEW-HATING BASTARD.

176 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:18:04pm
177 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:18:11pm

re: #167 Naso Tang

It has become patently obvious to me, the theory behind has had quite a few holes blown in it by more than well established professionals.

Now if we really want to speak the truth, the argument becomes is it man made?

178 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:18:20pm

re: #159 MandyManners

My son attends a Christian school.

There are Christian schools that teach then pray and there are Christian schools that pray then teach, in that order of priority.

179 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:18:29pm

re: #166 faraway

Corsi, while exposing Obama in his latest book is himself subject to further scrutiny. He's a troofer.

180 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:19:41pm

re: #151 Occasional Reader

They got their asses conquered from time to time, too. (Tatars, f'rinstance.)

Well, they absorbed them quite well.

Oh, goodness.

BIG TATAR IS RIPPING US OFF.

181 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:19:53pm

re: #176 buzzsawmonkey

Actually, you could be prophetic with an analysis like that. I was trying to be cute, though.

182 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:19:59pm

re: #159 MandyManners

These Christian schools were trying to force the state to change their admission standards for their universities. So- I think you misread me there- I don't think the problem is most Christians, the problem is with a handful who want to change the rules to suit their agenda.

183 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:20:30pm

re: #152 Naso Tang

They developed their problems after the little Swedes whupped their asses way back when. Trying to get even ever since. Funny thing though, my DNA suggests that's where my genes came from, after Africa of course.

I still wonder about the Finnish influence in Hungary.

184 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:21:05pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

They won't have any work to do, KT.
Unless they use a 1950's style patriotic textbook on US history.

Pity it so unlikely.
What would Gary Nash do?

185 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:22:18pm

re: #175 MandyManners

Let me know when madrassa-educated students apply/are accepted into the American college system...and survive.

Will do.


NOT EVERYONE IN HIGHER EDUCATION IS A COMPLETE DUMB-FUCK OR A JEW-HATING BASTARD.

If you can show me where I wrote that, I will retract it.

I'll be using the footbath in the Muslim-only meditation room that used to be a student center if you need me.

186 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:22:39pm

re: #139 formercorpsman

You know, I have no problem with the runny facade about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, etc.

Literally, this has been a staple of Christmas for decades upon decades.

If it was such a problem, I think we would have more problems with adults than we do today.

"Santa Claus" has been a figure that has altered through time, not initially of Christian origins or connected to Christmas.

And no, it's not such a huge problem. At least no more of a problem than telling any sort of little white lie to gullible children. I just think honesty is a better course for building bonds of trust, especially with kids.

And no, I do not mean tell them the unvarnished truth about everything. Just don't lie.

187 Lynn B.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:05pm
The case is not over yet, however: the plaintiffs have appealed the ruling to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Good luck with that.

188 AIrdale  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:30pm

Wonder how many courses taught by La Raza schools and the local madrassas are not acredited? We are talking about California!

189 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:32pm

re: #119 Basho

GAH! You got me.

He got me, too.

Phelps is magnificent.

190 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:34pm

re: #178 Naso Tang

There are Christian schools that teach then pray and there are Christian schools that pray then teach, in that order of priority.

The Kid's school prays. Then, it teaches.

Got a problem with that?

191 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:34pm
192 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:24:16pm

re: #180 MandyManners

Well, they absorbed them quite well.

Oh, goodness.

BIG TATAR IS RIPPING US OFF.

Does Crest still offer Tatar control?

193 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:25:20pm

re: #177 formercorpsman

It has become patently obvious to me, the theory behind has had quite a few holes blown in it by more than well established professionals.

So, allegedly, has evolution. Which professionals' side are you on that?


Now if we really want to speak the truth, the argument becomes is it man made?

Once upon a time the buffalo and Passenger Pigeon were thought numerous enough to feed and clothe a nation.

When I was young there were perhaps 3 billion people on the planet and the fishing was glorious and the reefs were endless and most of the planet was safe to travel.

If you want to say "man" doesn't make a difference, wait.

194 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:00pm

re: #183 MandyManners

I still wonder about the Finnish influence in Hungary.

That went right over my head.

195 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:07pm

re: #180 MandyManners

Well, they absorbed them quite well.

Oh, goodness.

BIG TATAR IS RIPPING US OFF.

Don't get saucy with us, Tatars!

196 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:12pm

re: #182 Sharmuta

These Christian schools were trying to force the state to change their admission standards for their universities. So- I think you misread me there- I don't think the problem is most Christians, the problem is with a handful who want to change the rules to suit their agenda.

Otay.

197 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:22pm

re: #192 OldLineTexan

Does Crest still offer Tatar control?

You mean all Eurasia need 9 centuries ago was Crest?

198 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:34pm
199 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:27:03pm

re: #186 Slumbering Behemoth

I agree with you for the most part.

Finding out Santa was not real was a little sad for me, but by the time my parents fessed up, I already had doubts from other kids who knew.

It would just seem to me, if this was responsible for the major damage some people are afraid of, it would have manifested by now.

200 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:27:52pm

re: #185 OldLineTexan

If you can show me where I wrote that, I will retract it.

I'll be using the footbath in the Muslim-only meditation room that used to be a student center if you need me.

*sigh*

I apologize for venting my spleen, OLT.

201 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:27:57pm

re: #190 MandyManners

The Kid's school prays. Then, it teaches.

Got a problem with that?

I meant priority, not sequence, and by priority I didn't mean spiritual significance.

Sheesh. Do I have to explain everything.

202 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:28:00pm

re: #197 jcm

You mean all Eurasia need 9 centuries ago was Crest?

Proper dental hygiene - Mom told you!

203 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:28:35pm

re: #188 AIrdale

Excellent point.

204 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:04pm

re: #185 OldLineTexan

It's unfortunate the ACLU or any other group isn't working on cases like tax payer funded footbaths in schools, but if these were being taken to court, I believe the Constitution would eventually win. And I think islamic creationism would lose too just as it's Christian counterpart has. But if we want to make sure the legal jihad is stopped, I think we best be prepared to be intellectually honest and unhypocritical. One religion gets special treatment, they all do. This is why our secular traditions should be defended, no matter what our personal religious leanings may want to favor.

205 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:30pm

re: #193 Naso Tang

Thanks for keeping the climate change debate honest :)

206 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:40pm

re: #172 wolfie

If you look at UC standards, you will see that the top 4% of students in any graduating class from an accredited school are automatically admitted. I am going to guess that this silly "standard" was instituted to allow for affirmative action by stealth. The top 4% at a lousy school teach "people's history" and ebonics get in. Period.
It's okay for them to have a reserve seat, so to speak. And you can bet they won't have their schools held to any standard beyond political correctness.

I can't give a 100% answer on that, but I am pretty sure if those schools are not private schools, they are using texts and curricula that have already been vetted by the the UC system to meet their admission standards.

207 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:41pm

re: #122 Naso Tang

You say that as if you know. I'm not an expert on biblical literature, but I don't recall seeing independent critiques from those times explaining that fact, and I have read enough in my life to be accustomed to symbolism being quite explicitly or implicitly indicated by most writers.

We have enough simple examples right here of comments being misunderstood by the simple omission of a "/", to conclude that most readers of supposedly symbolic stories will read them first as literal and only after explanation understand the symbolism intended.

I suppose you are suggesting that peoples in the past were more intelligent, educated and insightful than those of today?

I think you're trying to make the ancient world too much like the modern world. The Roman Empire had a great deal in common with the modern world, but it was still a prescientific and highly superstitious era. Symbols and patterns had powerful meanings. And in a world where few were literate (and there was no TV, no mass communication, no rapid transit, etc.), symbols and patterns were used to convey important religious and cultural and spiritual concepts to the masses and hold the people together. No, I'm not suggesting that people back then were more "intelligent, educated, or insightful," but they lived in their world and this stuff was all around them.

It's certainly likely that most of the "common people" saw the Bible stories as literal, but the repeated symbols and motifs probably spoke to them on a deep level as well. In any case, the Hebrew priests certainly WERE intelligent and well-educated. And I don't think it's just a coincidence that they kept using certain numbers, for example. Seven. Six. Twelve. Forty. Multiples of same. People knew what these numbers meant, not because they had any "special insight," but because it was part of their life.

I studied metaphysical Bible interpretation, and while I certainly considered the possibility that modern interpreters of the Bible were imposing symbolism and meaning where there was none, after a while the repetition of certain numbers and motifs in certain contexts becomes too obvious to dismiss as a complete coincidence. There's nothing mystical or spooky about all this...it's just a case of the Bible writers recycling things, bringing old symbols and motifs forward, making the past relevant to the present.

208 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:54pm

re: #200 MandyManners

Not necessary.

209 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:30:20pm

re: #192 OldLineTexan

Does Crest still offer Tatar control?

Beats me. I just work here seven days a week.

210 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:30:33pm

re: #204 Sharmuta

It's unfortunate the ACLU or any other group isn't working on cases like tax payer funded footbaths in schools, but if these were being taken to court, I believe the Constitution would eventually win. And I think islamic creationism would lose too just as it's Christian counterpart has. But if we want to make sure the legal jihad is stopped, I think we best be prepared to be intellectually honest and unhypocritical. One religion gets special treatment, they all do. This is why our secular traditions should be defended, no matter what our personal religious leanings may want to favor.

I don't favor favoring any of them - yet it is happening.

211 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:30:53pm

re: #30 Thanos

The Christian schools hired Dr. Behe (for $20,000) as an expert in "biology and physics."

To quote Derbyshire:

"Helping to defend creationist school boards in federal courts is not the Discovery Institute's game. Their game is to (a) make money from those spurious "textbooks" they put out, and (b) keep creationism in the news so that they don't run out of lecture gigs and wealthy funders. So far as those legal bills are concerned, Discovery Institute policy is: Let the dumb rubes fund their own stupid lawsuits."

212 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:31:01pm

re: #194 Naso Tang

That went right over my head.

Search Finland and Hungary.

213 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:31:32pm

re: #174 calcajun

LOL ! Thanks, calcajun. You seem to be the only person on this thread who even read my post.

But then, you are one of the very few who seem to think English and history "standards" might be problematic.

214 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:31:51pm

re: #195 Occasional Reader

Don't get saucy with us, Tatars!

Mrs. Paul will withdraw her fish-sticks!

215 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:31:59pm
216 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:33:27pm

re: #212 MandyManners

Search Finland and Hungary.

That could take a while.

217 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:33:28pm

re: #193 Naso Tang

Triangulation Naso.

You are putting words in my mouth.

Nice little slight of hand with the evolution dig as well.

Joe Bastardi for one seems pretty credible for my tastes.

Furthermore, if we are going to make comparisons, and examine our topic at hand, why do so many schools not allow equal time from the contrary professional opinion with respect to that subject?

218 mich-again  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:34:44pm

re: #215 buzzsawmonkey

I'm feeling Hungary, and I'm searching the land for some shark's fin soup.

How about Shark Sandwich.

219 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:35:00pm

re: #205 Basho

pom poms?

221 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:35:24pm

re: #218 mich-again

How about Shark Sandwich.

Rubber biscuit.

/bow bow bow

222 Silhouette  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:35:37pm

One of the team that invented tartar control toothpaste came and spoke to my university class. The most remarkable thing to me was that they set out to specifically create tartar control - so this was not a case of "discovery of substance, then find a use," like post-its

223 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:02pm
224 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:23pm

re: #222 Silhouette

One of the team that invented tartar control toothpaste came and spoke to my university class. The most remarkable thing to me was that they set out to specifically create tartar control - so this was not a case of "discovery of substance, then find a use," like post-its

Or cellophane tape.

225 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:34pm

re: #207 Tigger2005

The Roman Empire had a great deal in common with the modern world, but it was still a prescientific and highly superstitious era. Symbols and patterns had powerful meanings. And in a world where few were literate (and there was no TV

Wait, wait, wait... are you sure about that? Not even the really, really old shows, like Dragnet?

226 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:34pm

re: #217 formercorpsman

That subject being man made global warming.

227 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:47pm

re: #179 lawhawk

Corsi, while exposing Obama in his latest book is himself subject to further scrutiny. He's a troofer.

I didn't know about the troofer angle, but it doesn't surprise me. He also ripped off a whole lot of material from LGF for his ludicrous, borderline illiterate book about Iran.

228 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:37:32pm

re: #219 formercorpsman

It's rare here, and it bothers me.

229 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:37:44pm

re: #156 Cognito

I hadn't heard about that. Is there a further detail I could use to search for a story about it?

Seek and ye shall find.

Or, use the search function. Whichever works.

Chores call, see 'yall. Later.

230 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:37:45pm

re: #188 AIrdale

Wonder how many courses taught by La Raza schools and the local madrassas are not acredited? We are talking about California!

Don't hold your breath.
Their history will be top of the line!
They will definitely meet the standards of the UC history people.

231 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:37:59pm

re: #225 Occasional Reader

Wait, wait, wait... are you sure about that? Not even the really, really old shows, like Dragnet?

There was a primitive version of Animal Planet, but it involved Christians so it was eventually outlawed.

/

232 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:10pm

re: #215 buzzsawmonkey

I'm feeling Hungary, and I'm searching the land for some shark's fin soup.

233 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:16pm
234 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:24pm

re: #227 Charles

It is interesting how so many of these kinds of issues cross paths, to say nothing of how some people always seem to turn up in the discussion as players.

235 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:41pm

re: #227 Charles

I didn't know about the troofer angle, but it doesn't surprise me. He also ripped off a whole lot of material from LGF for his ludicrous, borderline illiterate book about Iran.

Damn, every idea I have to make a buck has already been taken...

236 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:49pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

Killgore, my reference is to the multi-cultural types, and specifically the ACLU who has definitely shown no interest in pursuing encroachment, nor the funding behind most of it.

237 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:39:02pm

re: #223 buzzsawmonkey

Actually, shark is completely non-kosher, so I wouldn't have it in either form. But the line was too good to pass up.

You're missing out, oh Son of Abraham. Mako Shark is pretty good.

238 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:39:34pm
239 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:40:18pm

re: #199 formercorpsman

I agree with you for the most part.

Finding out Santa was not real was a little sad for me, but by the time my parents fessed up, I already had doubts from other kids who knew.

It would just seem to me, if this was responsible for the major damage some people are afraid of, it would have manifested by now.

I think most people who give up their creationist beliefs are considerably older and more set in their beliefs than kids--still, probably most of them manage it without any lasting psychological damage. I'm more concerned about the people who never give up their creationist beliefs--or, at least, that segment of them that wants to redefine science so it conforms with their beliefs.

240 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:41:36pm

re: #179 lawhawk

Damn.

I was going to buy that book.

242 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:42:08pm

re: #228 Basho

Elaborate.

243 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:42:41pm

re: #238 buzzsawmonkey

You are welcome to my portion.

Pass the Tatar Sauce!

244 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:43:19pm

re: #227 Charles

I didn't know about the troofer angle, but it doesn't surprise me. He also ripped off a whole lot of material from LGF for his ludicrous, borderline illiterate book about Iran.

Dizzang, Charles. That's a strong statement -- I hope his publisher's lawyers don't come calling in the next few days.

245 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:43:48pm

re: #238 buzzsawmonkey

So why isn't it kosher, btw?

246 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:44:02pm

re: #239 Tigger2005

My inference was global warming.

Looking back at that post, I see it might not have been clear though.

248 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:44:39pm

re: #179 lawhawk

Ah, man. He's going to get tarred and feathered in the media.

249 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:45:24pm

re: #245 Occasional Reader

So why isn't it kosher, btw?

Fish with no scales, IIRC.

250 sparrowlake  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:45:46pm

re: #135 Cognito

There seems to be a theory of Islamic-Creationist-Russo conspiracy emerging, here.
Seems far more likely to me that there are some tremendously disparate people in the world who happen to have something in common.

The more I see and read about these DI/IDers the less respect I have for the vast majority of mainstream believers who fail to speak out against these whackjobs. I expect that unless the mainstream churches purge their ranks of these self-destructive influences there will be a high price to pay by Western mainstream religions.

As far as climate change is concerned, I would like to know why overpopulation, the obvious elephant in the room, is consistently ignored by the Goreacle and his followers. In a related vein are the goofy arguments against birth control, abortion and reduced bithrates being bandied about as demographic strategies by religious zealots in the global war against Islamofascism. As if the West should try to beat back the overbreeding Islamist hordes by outbreeding them -all of which is a sad joke and a distraction from the obvious fact that our planet is quickly losing its ability to sustain the explosive growth in human population.

252 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:46:01pm

re: #231 OldLineTexan

There was a primitive version of Animal Planet, but it involved Christians so it was eventually outlawed.

/

And of course that heartwarming series, Leave it to Maximus.

253 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:46:54pm

re: #244 Cognito

Dizzang, Charles. That's a strong statement -- I hope his publisher's lawyers don't come calling in the next few days.

Here we go. Cogs undue support of the major media. They can do no wrong.

254 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:47:26pm

re: #252 Occasional Reader

And of course that heartwarming series, Leave it to Maximus.

You know, once you start whistling that theme song, it's pretty much impossible to get it out of your head.

255 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:47:31pm
256 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:06pm

re: #252 Occasional Reader

And of course that heartwarming series, Leave it to Maximus.

Came on right vefore "I Love Caligula"

257 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:13pm
258 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:36pm

re: #204 Sharmuta

It's unfortunate the ACLU or any other group isn't working on cases like tax payer funded footbaths in schools, but if these were being taken to court, I believe the Constitution would eventually win. And I think islamic creationism would lose too just as it's Christian counterpart has. But if we want to make sure the legal jihad is stopped, I think we best be prepared to be intellectually honest and unhypocritical. One religion gets special treatment, they all do. This is why our secular traditions should be defended, no matter what our personal religious leanings may want to favor.

If I ever join the priesthood and become a Cardinal, I'm voting for Sharmuta as "Pope Joan II"

259 Alouette  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:36pm

re: #255 buzzsawmonkey

Sharks do not have scales. Kosher marine life must have both fins and scales.

That is why jellyfish, lobsters, shrimp, eels, sea cucumbers, catfish, sharks, and--according to most authorities--swordfish and sturgeon are not kosher.

That most of these are also either scavengers or raptors (as are many of the non-kosher land animals) may or may not be coincidence.

But piranha have fins and scales. Weird, huh?

260 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:36pm

re: #248 Noam Sayin'

Ah, man. He's going to get tarred and feathered in the media.

Looks like he deserves to be tossed out of the public debate, to me. I can't abide anyone who embraces September 11 theories.

261 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:43pm

re: #193 Naso Tang

Once upon a time the buffalo and Passenger Pigeon were thought numerous enough to feed and clothe a nation.

When I was young there were perhaps 3 billion people on the planet and the fishing was glorious and the reefs were endless and most of the planet was safe to travel.

If you want to say "man" doesn't make a difference, wait.

While it's certainly true we've had an impact on the planet, I don't think it is so simple to compare global warming and evolution. Evolution has 150 years of research behind it (and more years of research before it was even proposed). Global warming is a much newer, and much more uncertain, "science." We can observe evolution...we can see it in the rocks...we can find evidence of it in DNA. Weather patterns are much trickier. In addition, this whole area of research has become politicized to an insane degree, and there is a lot of money involved as well. That Bishop Hill blog post is a good example of how screwed up global warming research is. There's a lot of bad science out there right now on this particular subject.

262 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:09pm

re: #255 buzzsawmonkey

Sharks do not have scales. Kosher marine life must have both fins and scales.

Picky, picky, picky, that Yahweh.

263 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:23pm
264 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:24pm
265 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:28pm

re: #259 Alouette

But piranha have fins and scales. Weird, huh?

I've eaten piranha!

266 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:47pm

re: #195 Occasional Reader

Something fishy going on here.

267 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:50pm

re: #253 Walter L. Newton

Here we go. Cogs undue support of the major media. They can do no wrong.

Not at all. And I don't think one crackpot author is "the major media."

268 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:55pm

re: #255 buzzsawmonkey

Sharks do not have scales. Kosher marine life must have both fins and scales.

That is why jellyfish, lobsters, shrimp, eels, sea cucumbers, catfish, sharks, and--according to most authorities--swordfish and sturgeon are not kosher.

That most of these are also either scavengers or raptors (as are many of the non-kosher land animals) may or may not be coincidence.

Delicious.

Tried it; they can keep it.

269 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:50:06pm
270 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:50:21pm

[Link: georgiamfa.blogspot.com...]

Thursday, August 14, 2008
Russian Military Establishes Illegal Checkpoint
Russian military have established an illegal checkpoint on the main highway at the city of Gori

According to the recent information received by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs from the appropriate authorities of Georgia, on 13 August 2008, the Russian military have established an illegal checkpoint on the main highway at the city of Gori. All cargo vehicles passing through this checkpoint are being stopped and thoroughly searched by the Russian military, and being allowed the free passage only under condition of payment of ransom.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is assessing this act as a grave violation of international law and sovereignty of Georgia.

By introducing illegal armed formations and groups of bandits who are now blocking Georgian highways, looting peaceful population and disrupting trade, the Russian Federation again clearly demonstrates that its aim is the full occupation of Georgia.
Posted by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia at 12:07 AM
Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Hotline created
Today the Cabinet of the Minister of State of Georgia for Reintegration has created a hotline, which will work for 24 hours.

We call on all citizens to contact us if they possess information on the following issues:

Hostages

Facts of looting

Peaceful population remained in the conflict zone


Thanking in advance for cooperation

Hotline:
47 30 06
98 94 51
Posted by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia at 8:20 PM

271 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:50:33pm

re: #263 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, now that you mention it.

In Soviet Brazil, fish sticks eats you!

272 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:50:42pm

re: #259 Alouette

But piranha have fins and scales. Weird, huh?

Cornmeal, pepper, and some hot oil.

We'll see who eats who.

273 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:09pm

re: #267 Cognito

Not at all. And I don't think one crackpot author is "the major media."

You mentioned the publishers lawyers. not the authors. I was refering to your reference to "publisher." They are major media.

274 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:10pm

FUCK YOU, PUTIN.

275 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:11pm

re: #261 Tigger2005

Actually Tigger, you can see it in the rocks.

The ocean floor reveals quite a bit about climate.

Diverging & Converging plates.

276 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:28pm

re: #247 MandyManners

All I got was

[Link: www.musicheadquarter.de...]

So are you saying the first link didn't work? It does for me - it's a google image search of Ville Valo.

The 69 Eyes - Lost Boys

277 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:29pm

re: #268 OldLineTexan

Delicious.

Tried it; they can keep it.

We're in complete agreement on each item (except I've never tried sturgeon).

278 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:32pm

re: #261 Tigger2005

While it's certainly true we've had an impact on the planet, I don't think it is so simple to compare global warming and evolution. Evolution has 150 years of research behind it (and more years of research before it was even proposed). Global warming is a much newer, and much more uncertain, "science." We can observe evolution...we can see it in the rocks...we can find evidence of it in DNA. Weather patterns are much trickier. In addition, this whole area of research has become politicized to an insane degree, and there is a lot of money involved as well. That Bishop Hill blog post is a good example of how screwed up global warming research is. There's a lot of bad science out there right now on this particular subject.

The American Bison was eradicated ON PURPOSE.

279 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:34pm

re: #225 Occasional Reader

Wait, wait, wait... are you sure about that? Not even the really, really old shows, like Dragnet?

My name is Josephus Saturninus. I carry a badge.

280 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:52:27pm

re: #273 Walter L. Newton

You mentioned the publishers lawyers. not the authors. I was refering to your reference to "publisher." They are major media.

Okay.

This isn't about media. But okay.

281 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:52:44pm
282 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:53:05pm

Still, PUTIN CENSORS THE NEWS.

[Link: www.aboutgeorgia.net...]

283 Lynn B.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:53:16pm

re: #176 buzzsawmonkey

I'm assuming that you're trying to be cute, but your comment seems to lack a certain focus. If you are familiar with the Pentateuch, the Wilderness of Zin is referenced a number of times. A little ironic, given the areligious leftism of Howard Zinn's work.

Yes, it's not exactly a fictitious location. I've been there, and it's one of the more eerily gorgeous places on the face of the earth. Maybe I'll figure out how to digitize some of my prints. The images Google has up don't do it justice.

284 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:53:44pm
anti-science rubbish

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

285 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:53:58pm

re: #279 calcajun

My name is Josephus Saturninus. I carry a badge.

And then there was my favorite, Hibernia V-Oh.

"Book 'em, Danus."

286 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:54:15pm

re: #277 Occasional Reader

We're in complete agreement on each item (except I've never tried sturgeon).

OK, sturgeon...once I had like three eggs of low-grade albeit real Russian caviar on a toast point. Not bad. Didn't actually eat the fish.

287 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:54:18pm

re: #276 Catttt

So are you saying the first link didn't work? It does for me - it's a google image search of Ville Valo.

The 69 Eyes - Lost Boys

Goodness.

288 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:54:52pm

re: #258 Zimriel

Awww, shucks.

289 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:54:53pm

re: #274 MandyManners

FUCK YOU, PUTIN.

Puto I believe is the correct term.

290 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:55:14pm
291 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:55:31pm

re: #281 buzzsawmonkey

See, by differentiating this way, the Jews leave some fish for everyone else.

You have never seen devouring until you've seen some of the folks from my congregation attack the smoked fish at a large kiddush.

Looking at it that way it's pretty damned generous of y'all. Especially the catfish and shrimp. I can't imagine not having catfish and shrimp.

292 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:55:39pm

re: #284 jimc

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

Took long enough for you guys to show up :)

293 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:55:41pm

re: #213 wolfie

I have more concern over the erosion and subversion of American history than I have of science and biology. Once one goes, the other will follow.

294 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:56:06pm

Golly, the UC system is full of all those fancy people with fancy letters after their names! I'm sure they can set standards for history books.
Let's not question our superiors!

295 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:56:32pm

re: #284 jimc

Utter nonsense! Do you believe ID is a better theory? If so, then prove it.

296 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:56:49pm
297 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:56:58pm

re: #217 formercorpsman

Triangulation Naso.

You are putting words in my mouth.

Nice little slight of hand with the evolution dig as well.

Joe Bastardi for one seems pretty credible for my tastes.

Furthermore, if we are going to make comparisons, and examine our topic at hand, why do so many schools not allow equal time from the contrary professional opinion with respect to that subject?

I think you have used the Isle of Pines before, but I forgive you and myself too if it was someone else, but it was the same context.

Thanks for the evolution compliment, but your argument was in the same vein; namely mentioning unnamed professionals that will take us a years to dissect on all sides, and still end up unconvinced.

That there is politics in Global Warming is undeniable, and Kyoto was ridiculous in elimination the largest growing "polluters" on the planet, but that is politics. Denying that humans don't affect the environment, detrimentally and significantly, I don't need science to tell me, even though I respect science. I have seen it, in a big way.

You can blame the sun cycles if you wish, but I know there are enough of us to do damage and if you pay attention to the next traffic jam you are stuck in you should too.

As to equal contrary professional time in schools, I presume you are talking of evolution/creationism, not global warming, since the latter hasn't yet reached that level.

Surely you don't seriously mean to bring that up in this post again? I would call that trolling given that you are not new here. You can have all the education you want by searching, for example, posts by Salamantis. Much better than what I can do.

Enjoy.

298 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:57:09pm

re: #285 Occasional Reader

There was the obscure, "My Damus, the Ox-Cart"

299 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:58:32pm

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Wow.

300 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:58:38pm

re: #251 David IV of Georgia

For Finnish, I prefer Tarja and Nightwish type stuff.

Oh, I like Nightwish too. Small country - large talent.

I do miss Tarja being in Nightwish.

Angel

Phantom of the Opera

301 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:59:20pm

re: #294 wolfie

The point is that religious nuts don't have the right to dictate reality (history or science) to other educational institutions. UC can't be forced to accept these schools' backwards concepts.

302 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:59:31pm

re: #293 calcajun

I have more concern over the erosion and subversion of American history than I have of science and biology. Once one goes, the other will follow.

Absolutely!
And if anyone were seriously interested in defending the Constitution, they might care as much about the erosion of history teaching as you do.

303 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:59:41pm

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

I mean, seriously. Wow.

304 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:59:53pm

re: #260 Cognito

Looks like he deserves to be tossed out of the public debate, to me. I can't abide anyone who embraces September 11 theories.

That was a little sarcasm, but in my failing, I also meant to imply how folks who are critical of The O might get painted in along with this guy.

305 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:00:08pm

re: #299 MandyManners

Wow.

Spanish speakers, at least the less refined, always gigle when discussing the Soviet Emperor's Russian leader's name.

306 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:00:16pm

re: #280 Cognito

You are so full of shit, as usual. Spin and defend is something you do by rote.

307 Alouette  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:00:26pm

re: #281 buzzsawmonkey

See, by differentiating this way, the Jews leave some fish for everyone else.

You have never seen devouring until you've seen some of the folks from my congregation attack the smoked fish at a large kiddush.

When my son was a little 'un, he said, "is that why the smorgasbord is called horse devours?"

308 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:03pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

The point is that religious nuts don't have the right to dictate reality (history or science) to other educational institutions. UC can't be forced to accept these schools' backwards concepts.

Christian religious nuts, no.

309 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:06pm

re: #304 Noam Sayin'

And yes, Cog, on that issue, I agree with you.

WTF?

310 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:20pm

re: #306 FurryOldGuyJeans

You are so full of shit, as usual. Spin and defend is something you do by rote.

What am I spinning or defending, if you don't mind?

Or are those words you simply use "by rote"?

311 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:22pm

re: #284 jimc

Yes, we've discussed and debunked Ben Stein's idiocy mant times here. Anything to add or are you just going to repeat easily debunked talking points?

312 jaunte  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:28pm

re: #284 jimc
"...modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith..."

Congratulations. You've just scored 40 points on the Baez Crackpot Index.

"#35: 40 points for comparing yourself to Galileo, suggesting that a modern-day Inquisition is hard at work on your case, and so on.
[Link: math.ucr.edu...]

313 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:02:23pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

I agree. If people think state university admission standards are not what they should be, they should push for them to be improved, NOT redefined to support biases by using lawsuits.

314 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:02:32pm

re: #308 OldLineTexan

This is not a ruling against Christians no matter how much you would like it to be true. This is a ruling against private schools delivering substandard education.

315 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:02:51pm

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Okay.

316 sparrowlake  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:03:20pm

re: #284 jimc

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

blah blah blah...do you actually believe any of that drivel?

317 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:03:58pm

I basically agree with #297, former. I would like to elaborate further but I'm on my Wii online and it is a pain to type. Gotta keep my posts short for now.

318 jim in virginia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:04:14pm

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Ding!
Adding to bookmarks.

319 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:04:27pm

re: #314 Killgore Trout

This is not a ruling against Christians no matter how much you would like it to be true. This is a ruling against private schools delivering substandard education.

You misinterpret me completely, here.

But have it your way. I'm not going to retype my posts from above, and I'm not so egotistical as to believe you read them before popping that little snap judgment out.

320 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:15pm

GAH.

321 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:22pm

re: #284 jimc

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

There are two subjects here, as you pointed out. Science is science, faith is faith. Do not conflate.

322 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:26pm

re: #297 Naso Tang

Actually Naso, I don't even know what the Pines reference is.

Second, my argument was not whether man has an impact on his environment.

Third, I went back and clarified my post to reflect where it might appear as if I was referencing the ID debate, I was not. My reference was equal time to the professionals who opine a contrary theory that of man made global warming.

It is very slick the way some folks will slip certain particulars of a discussion into something that was never entertained.

As the current argument stands, there is more than just a few dissenting professional opinions that refute the man made global warming theory as we have come to know it from the likes of Al Gore, or rabid environmentalists.

I see many wedge properties in their arguments myself.

323 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:35pm

re: #320 MandyManners

GAH.

My sentiments exactly.

324 neocon hippie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:43pm

re: #261 Tigger2005

What is the link to the Bishop Hill blog post that you're referring to?

325 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:47pm

"lobsters, shrimp" - Deut. 14:9"Of all that are in the waters you may eat these: whatever has fins and scales you may eat. 10And whatever does not have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean for you. ... 19And all winged insects are unclean for you; they shall not be eaten."

I'm wondering if we can count a carapace, as per arthropods, as "scales". Lobsters and shrimp do have fins (on their tail). Also, as arthropods, lobsters and shrimp are insect-ish but NOT winged.

I'm thinking that there may be a "clean bug" loophole that lets lobsters and shrimp be kosher.

326 jim in virginia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:06:21pm

At NRO: Vlad, you've got mail.
The last one is priceless

327 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:06:34pm

We need to just keep landing more and more "humanitarian aid" workers in there. I bet the Russians will feel real tough when they see battle-hardened and disciplined American and British troops protecting and escorting Georgian civilians.

Oh, and fill some of those C-1 transports with M-1 tanks, stinger missiles, and so on.

Worried that this "escalation" would lead to nuclear war? I think if we don't do something now, nuclear war is pretty much inevitable. Anyway, we did plenty of extremely "provocative" stuff during the Cold War and it didn't lead to a nuclear exchange. When you firmly confront the Russians, they tend to back off...it's a chess game to them and they're very patient. It's when you DON'T confront them firmly that you're really risking getting yourself into a checkmate position, forcing YOU to go nuclear.


re: #270 MandyManners

[Link: georgiamfa.blogspot.com...]

Thursday, August 14, 2008
Russian Military Establishes Illegal Checkpoint
Russian military have established an illegal checkpoint on the main highway at the city of Gori

According to the recent information received by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs from the appropriate authorities of Georgia, on 13 August 2008, the Russian military have established an illegal checkpoint on the main highway at the city of Gori. All cargo vehicles passing through this checkpoint are being stopped and thoroughly searched by the Russian military, and being allowed the free passage only under condition of payment of ransom.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is assessing this act as a grave violation of international law and sovereignty of Georgia.

By introducing illegal armed formations and groups of bandits who are now blocking Georgian highways, looting peaceful population and disrupting trade, the Russian Federation again clearly demonstrates that its aim is the full occupation of Georgia.
Posted by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia at 12:07 AM
Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Hotline created
Today the Cabinet of the Minister of State of Georgia for Reintegration has created a hotline, which will work for 24 hours.

We call on all citizens to contact us if they possess information on the following issues:

Hostages

Facts of looting

Peaceful population remained in the conflict zone


Thanking in advance for cooperation

Hotline:
47 30 06
98 94 51
Posted by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia at 8:20 PM

328 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:07:56pm

re: #324 neocon hippie

What is the link to the Bishop Hill blog post that you're referring to?

[Link: bishophill.squarespace.com...]

329 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:08:27pm

OT - interesting tidbit:

One pound of cyanide found in Dirie's hotel room, enough to kill hundreds

330 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:08:56pm

re: #207 Tigger2005

I think you're trying to make the ancient world too much like the modern world. The Roman Empire had a great deal in common with the modern world, but it was still a prescientific and highly superstitious era.

Doesn't that sound awfully familiar today? Do you read any newspapers that don't have a horoscope? Have you asked any Asians what principles they use to decorate their homes?

Symbols and patterns had powerful meanings. And in a world where few were literate (and there was no TV, no mass communication, no rapid transit, etc.), symbols and patterns were used to convey important religious and cultural and spiritual concepts to the masses and hold the people together. No, I'm not suggesting that people back then were more "intelligent, educated, or insightful," but they lived in their world and this stuff was all around them.


Seriously, you should spend more time watching the mega church preachers on TV.

It's certainly likely that most of the "common people" saw the Bible stories as literal, but the repeated symbols and motifs probably spoke to them on a deep level as well. In any case, the Hebrew priests certainly WERE intelligent and well-educated. And I don't think it's just a coincidence that they kept using certain numbers, for example. Seven. Six. Twelve. Forty. Multiples of same. People knew what these numbers meant, not because they had any "special insight," but because it was part of their life.

Numerology is alive and well today, on the same shows mentioned above. People know what they mean because they are told what they mean, but not because the original writers said what it was supposed to mean.

I studied metaphysical Bible interpretation, and while I certainly considered the possibility that modern interpreters of the Bible were imposing symbolism and meaning where there was none, after a while the repetition of certain numbers and motifs in certain contexts becomes too obvious to dismiss as a complete coincidence. There's nothing mystical or spooky about all this...it's just a case of the Bible writers recycling things, bringing old symbols and motifs forward, making the past relevant to the present.

after a while the repetition of certain numbers and motifs in certain contexts becomes too obvious to dismiss as a complete coincidence.

I regret that you have not yet broken free of your "education", and the above sentence suggest why.

331 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:09:04pm

re: #327 Tigger2005

C-17 Globemaster
C-17

332 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:09:28pm

re: #295 Sharmuta

Utter nonsense! Do you believe ID is a better theory? If so, then prove it.

I didn't say ID is a better theory, but just because you can't find a better theory than evolution doesn't make it right, it just means that is the better than the alternative.

Evolution is the "Yada yada yada" theory...lifeless planet, yada yada yada, single celled organisms doing well for themselves and then yada yada yada, Cambrian explosion, creatures doing well for themselves, yada yada yada, sea creatures doing well for them selves, yada yada yada, land creatures, land creatures, yada yada yada, monkeys decide they need to see color, yada yada yada, RGB true color porn right on the screen...

Evolution means never having to explain how or why, just make up a good story have it published by good story lovers and then it can be used as reference material by bloggers...straw man science. There is no critical thinking in evolution just great story telling...

333 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:09:40pm

re: #287 MandyManners

Goodness.

:) They are awesome.

334 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:10:25pm

I just read the most stuck-up sentence I have ever seen.

Wow.

335 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:10:33pm

reine, it's looking more and more like "Jihad For Dummies".

336 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:11:07pm

re: #335 Zimriel

reine, it's looking more and more like "Jihad For Dummies".

Ya work with what ya got.

337 rlevitin  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:11:29pm

Drive-by Post:

I think this is a quote some libs really need to internalize:

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"
-Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
(trans: If you seek peace, prepare for war)

Just came across that bit of wisdom and had to share!

338 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:11:50pm

re: #332 jimc

You know nothing of eevolution, science in general, and probably anything in particular.

339 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:12:08pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

The point is that religious nuts don't have the right to dictate reality (history or science) to other educational institutions. UC can't be forced to accept these schools' backwards concepts.

The point is that if "religious nuts" cannot run a private school according to their own lights, neither can "secular nuts." I am disturbed by some of the implications of the UC system's application of standards.

I have pointed out that the chief honcho judging history texts for the UC system (Gary Nash) is a man slightly to the left of Ward Churchill.He has been trying for over 20 years to dictate "reality" in history curricula. His "reality", BTW, includes the conviction that science and technology are evil constructs designed by the white man to oppress people of color.

The majority of lizard have concepts of history that are "backward."
Many have concepts about literature and English that are "backward."

There is more to this subject than initially meets the eye.

340 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:12:18pm

re: #332 jimc

I didn't say ID is a better theory, but just because you can't find a better theory than evolution doesn't make it right, it just means that is the better than the alternative.

Evolution is the "Yada yada yada" theory...lifeless planet, yada yada yada, single celled organisms doing well for themselves and then yada yada yada, Cambrian explosion, creatures doing well for themselves, yada yada yada, sea creatures doing well for them selves, yada yada yada, land creatures, land creatures, yada yada yada, monkeys decide they need to see color, yada yada yada, RGB true color porn right on the screen...

Evolution means never having to explain how or why, just make up a good story have it published by good story lovers and then it can be used as reference material by bloggers...straw man science. There is no critical thinking in evolution just great story telling...

That's one long turd you just pushed out there. Could be a world record.

341 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:12:55pm

re: #332 jimc

First- I never said that you said ID was a better theory. I asked you if it was.

Have a better theory for the diversification on species on this planet? If so, present it, otherwise you're doing nothing but showing your ignorance.

342 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:13:03pm

re: #338 Basho

You know nothing of eevolution, science in general, and probably anything in particular.

That's that Russian poet that wrote all in lower-case, ain't it?

343 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:13:44pm

re: #333 Catttt

:) They are awesome.

Indeed.

344 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:13:51pm

re: #337 rlevitin

Parallel is the quote from Machiavelli:

'You cannot avoid war, you can only put it off to the advantage of your opponent.'

345 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:14:06pm

re: #339 wolfie

The point is that if "religious nuts" cannot run a private school according to their own lights, neither can "secular nuts." I am disturbed by some of the implications of the UC system's application of standards.

I have pointed out that the chief honcho judging history texts for the UC system (Gary Nash) is a man slightly to the left of Ward Churchill.He has been trying for over 20 years to dictate "reality" in history curricula. His "reality", BTW, includes the conviction that science and technology are evil constructs designed by the white man to oppress people of color.

The majority of lizard have concepts of history that are "backward."
Many have concepts about literature and English that are "backward."

There is more to this subject than initially meets the eye.

He's on to us.

As a white male involved in science and technology, I can tell you it's true.

It's all about the O.

346 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:14:07pm

re: #330 Naso Tang

I regret that you have not yet broken free of your "education", and the above sentence suggest why.

Naso, you're reaching. Don't bring that crap in here.

And clearly, you've been drinking.

347 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:14:32pm

re: #284 jimc

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

If you can provide honest to goodness, real world examples of this persecution you speak of, I might be tempted to believe you. Otherwise, you are simply trolling with phony bait.

348 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:16:00pm

re: #332 jimc

Evolution is the "Yada yada yada" theory

Well, sure. If by "yada yada", you mean "evidence".

349 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:17:16pm

re: #315 MandyManners

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Okay.

Perhaps I missed it, but surely I am not the only one to notice that the correct pronunciation is Putain?

350 jim in virginia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:18:42pm
As a white male involved in science and technology, I can tell you it's true.

The Masons only think they're in charge. It's really us good old white boy engineers.
Yeehaw!

351 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:18:55pm

re: #339 wolfie

That is the dichotomy known as America.

I just started reading The Gulag Archipelago.

As much as we are fighting extremism from religious entities seeking to impose themselves on academia, the hen house has no vacancies because the fox has all the rooms.

I fear the religious angle just slightly less than I do the leftist domination of the educational system.

It is them we have to thank for things such as socialism masquerading as multi-cultural ism, class warfare, and the separation of your money from your wallet for the greater good.

I think some months ago, Walter touched upon a theory I am giving more credence to.

352 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:19:10pm

re: #247 MandyManners

All I got was

[Link: www.musicheadquarter.de...]

There's also The Rasmus, Helsinki Goth

353 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:20:06pm

re: #276 Catttt

So are you saying the first link didn't work? It does for me - it's a google image search of Ville Valo.

The 69 Eyes - Lost Boys

Meh, I'm more of a 20 Eyes kinda guy.

354 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:20:35pm

re: #329 reine.de.tout

OT - interesting tidbit:

One pound of cyanide found in Dirie's hotel room, enough to kill hundreds

Cyanide is not too hard to find—think rodent control—but it isn't something one keeps a big supply of on hand.

355 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:21:11pm

re: #346 Noam Sayin'

Naso, you're reaching. Don't bring that crap in here.

And clearly, you've been drinking.

You're the numerologist. How many have I had?

356 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:21:43pm

re: #354 David IV of Georgia

I think I read somewhere, the female that was just picked up has a treasure trove of AQ contact information, and possibly might have some connection this incident.

357 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:21:56pm

re: #314 Killgore Trout

This is not a ruling against Christians no matter how much you would like it to be true. This is a ruling against private schools delivering substandard education.

There are public schools in California, as in other states, where over a third of HS graduates read below a 4th grade level. ( A 2008 4th grade level, which is equivalent to a 2nd grade 1950 level.) Some are functionally illiterate. And of course, in some of these schools a majority of students do not even graduate.
The top 4% from these schools get automatic admission to the US system.....in the interest of covert affirmative action.

THAT is "substandard education" to me.

358 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:23:08pm

re: #349 Naso Tang

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Perhaps I missed it, but surely I am not the only one to notice that the correct pronunciation is Putain?

That is a fair description too.

359 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:23:13pm

re: #357 wolfie

We started losing when the Department of Education was implemented.

360 sparrowlake  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:24:03pm

re: #330 Naso Tang

The whole damn thing is just too pataphysical.

361 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:24:04pm

re: #357 wolfie

I can appreciate your concern for education standards- I think all Lizards are concerned about them. However- the point remains that we don't correct poor standards in education by inserting more bias or bias of a different nature.

362 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:24:42pm

re: #358 David IV of Georgia

That is a fair description too.

This being the pre-Obama age of dis-enlightenment, I could not make out the foreign language on that page.

/

363 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:04pm

re: #357 wolfie

Education in this country sucks, you won't get any argument out of me on that. Why should we make it worse by forcing universities to accept substandard curriculum dictated by religious nuts?

364 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:06pm

re: #352 Thanos

There's also The Rasmus, Helsinki Goth

:D

365 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:15pm

OT - interesting tidbit:

One pound of cyanide found in Dirie's hotel room, enough to kill hundreds
re: #335 Zimriel

reine, it's looking more and more like "Jihad For Dummies".

Are you saying that the authorities continue to insist that there is nothing suspicious here? Just your everyday suicide case involving a Somali-Canadian with one pound of cyanide, no reason to believe there is a terror connection?

366 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:15pm

re: #360 sparrowlake

The whole damn thing is just too pataphysical.

I always thought he was singing "metaphysical". But you're right.

367 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:32pm

If Andrea Kramer asks Mike Phelps "what was going through your mind when you..." ONE MORE TIME my freakin' head is gonna EXPLODE.

368 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:54pm
#353 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #276 Catttt

So are you saying the first link didn't work? It does for me - it's a google image search of Ville Valo.

The 69 Eyes - Lost Boys

Meh, I'm more of a 20 Eyes kinda guy.

If you can control yourself, it's a 1000 eyes...

369 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:26:10pm

re: #312 jaunte

"...modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith..."

Congratulations. You've just scored 40 points on the Baez Crackpot Index.

"#35: 40 points for comparing yourself to Galileo, suggesting that a modern-day Inquisition is hard at work on your case, and so on.
[Link: math.ucr.edu...]

Keep that scorecard handy, Jaunte, I think it will get a lot of use. Not to mention provide a great deal of enlightening entertainment.

370 Jim D  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:26:43pm

re: #339 wolfie

The point is that if "religious nuts" cannot run a private school according to their own lights, neither can "secular nuts." I am disturbed by some of the implications of the UC system's application of standards.


I didn't think anyone was preventing the religious nuts from running schools as they wish. They just can't do so and expect folks that don't believe that science = magic to go along with all that silliness.

371 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:27:11pm

re: #354 David IV of Georgia

Cyanide is not too hard to find—think rodent control—but it isn't something one keeps a big supply of on hand.

Well, nor is it something one usually brings on vacation. If, say, I were a Somali-Canadian vacationing in Denver, I'm not sure I would waste my packing space with cyanide.

372 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:27:28pm

re: #345 OldLineTexan

Oh no! A white MALE, no less!
As any 2-bit women's studies prof can tell you, science is phallocentric, logomaniacal patriarchy!

373 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:12pm

re: #367 Cartman

When I was a competitive swimmer years ago, my thoughts in the pool were usually along the lines of "breathe, stroke, breathe, stroke, breathe, go faster, breathe, flip, breathe...."

374 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:31pm

re: #355 Naso Tang

You're the numerologist. How many have I had?

I'm not a numerologist. I just played one on the daytime soaps back in the late 80s. How the f*ck did you figure that out? It was three episodes. I was off the lot before they even brought out lunch.

I'll need your height, weight, and relative girliness.

375 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:37pm

re: #356 formercorpsman

I think I read somewhere, the female that was just picked up has a treasure trove of AQ contact information, and possibly might have some connection this incident.

I'm not saying there is no guilt, just saying that having a pound of cyanide is not so hard to come by. I remember that quite ordinary means were used to kill thousands on 9-11.

376 Maximu§  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:46pm

OT

Anyone here remember the thread about that maniac (Vince Li) who calmly murdered and beheaded his seatmate on that Greyhound bus in Canada?

Blogs are talking about Windigo possession and one website claims this happened in Alberta before in 1879.

Swift Runner the Cannibal

From what I know, Windigo's are an evil sprit that can take possession of people and turn them into cannibalistic monsters. Vince Li was obvioulsy a psychopath/sociopath, but I wonder if people in that frame of mind could become easy prey for a Windigo?

Fellow bus riders claimed Vince Li was totally calm as he sawed off that poor schmucks head....weird stuff, maybe that part of Alberta is haunted.

377 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:47pm

re: #373 Sharmuta

Exactly.

378 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:53pm

re: #362 OldLineTexan

This being the pre-Obama age of dis-enlightenment, I could not make out the foreign language on that page.

/

Sorry about that, one forgets which frame of reference one is in sometimes

Putain = Whore

as the French say.

379 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:29:07pm

re: #367 Cartman

If Andrea Kramer asks Mike Phelps "what was going through your mind when you..." ONE MORE TIME my freakin' head is gonna EXPLODE.

No kidding. To do what he's doing, he can be thinking about only 3 things - eating, sleeping, swimming, and then eating a lot more.

380 Capitalistincharge  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:29:21pm

Hate to OT everyone but, CNN is reporting 15,000 Russian Troops are now in Georgia. They start 4 days ago with 8,000. They are definately on the move.

381 stevieray  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:29:55pm

re: #365 reine.de.tout

Are you saying that the authorities continue to insist that there is nothing suspicious here? Just your everyday suicide case involving a Somali-Canadian with one pound of cyanide, no reason to believe there is a terror connection?

Who the heck would believe that? You know the feds have got to be calling the shots... leaving the local cops to stammer out the "no connection to terror" bull.

382 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:17pm

re: #361 Sharmuta

I agree with that Sharmuta.

But it can't be denied, there has been an extremely aggressive effort to remove anything religious from our school system, not in the spirit of the Constitution, but from special interest that looks to diminish.

I was just reading today, the ACLU is going to go up against a town that VOTED to impose a curfew because of crime in their jurisdiction.

The ACLU has become nothing but a nuisance for society. Moreover, they do it with our tax dollars reimbursing them.

I think there is something to be said, about the traditional mooring society once had when it revered the judeo-christian foundation.

I don't think it would be fair to blame the rampant illegitimacy we see now on religious overtones in school.

383 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:31pm

re: #362 OldLineTexan

This being the pre-Obama age of dis-enlightenment, I could not make out the foreign language on that page.

/

Mostly the entire putain page consisted of French synonyms and euphemisms for whore and prostitute.

384 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:46pm

re: #339 wolfie

The point is that if "religious nuts" cannot run a private school according to their own lights, neither can "secular nuts."

Sure, they can run their schools any way they like, and teach their students anything they like. Nobody is telling them otherwise.

What they can't do: expect the state's university system to accept students that have been "educated" to believe in religious fanaticism.

385 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:52pm

re: #357 wolfie

There are public schools in California, as in other states, where over a third of HS graduates read below a 4th grade level. ( A 2008 4th grade level, which is equivalent to a 2nd grade 1950 level.) Some are functionally illiterate. And of course, in some of these schools a majority of students do not even graduate.
The top 4% from these schools get automatic admission to the US system.....in the interest of covert affirmative action.

THAT is "substandard education" to me.

And introducing ID into public schools solves this how? Might as well beat the dog because your aged granny passed gas. Doing the latter makes as much sense as the former.

386 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:53pm

re: #372 wolfie

Oh no! A white MALE, no less!
As any 2-bit women's studies prof can tell you, science is phallocentric, logomaniacal patriarchy!

I saw a Professor of Urban Education on O'Reilly tonight.

I was so stunned I neglected to fully document his argument that Jesus would have approved of abortion, including partial-birth abortion.

Thank God he's not teaching...oh

387 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:31:21pm

re: #379 reine.de.tout

I know. I just don't understand her compulsion to ask him that at least once, every damn interview she does with him!

388 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:31:32pm

re: #363 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I am being serious, and no I am not playing the straw-man.

We led the world at one time, what happened to our education system?

389 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:31:52pm

re: #387 Cartman

I know. I just don't understand her compulsion to ask him that at least once, every damn interview she does with him!

She doesn't know what else to ask, I guess.

390 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:12pm

re: #368 solomonpanting

If you can control yourself, it's a 1000 eyes...

Oooooh - Bobby Vee! :) I remember listening to that on the radio when I was a kid. I know all the words to that one.

391 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:22pm

re: #374 Noam Sayin'


I'll need your height, weight, and relative girliness.

I need to know in what measurements, or if you want multiple one, just to make sure that the pegs fit the right openings.

392 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:30pm

re: #351 formercorpsman

I fear that what is now being done to "religious nuts" will soon be done to all the "nuts" that disagree w/ politically correct views.

I cannot understand why so few lizards give a damn about the history and English issue here.

393 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:31pm

re: #383 David IV of Georgia

Mostly the entire putain page consisted of French synonyms and euphemisms for whore and prostitute.

I used the sarc symbolism, people!

Are we lacking a common cultural reference point?

394 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:32pm

re: #389 reine.de.tout

She doesn't know what else to ask, I guess.

Well, then ask him what he had for lunch, or something. Fer cryin' out loud!

395 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:42pm

re: #384 Charles

Charles, I thought most states impose a minimum educational standard on alternative schools.

Not being contrary, but that was always my understanding.

396 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:54pm

re: #347 Slumbering Behemoth

If you can provide honest to goodness, real world examples of this persecution you speak of, I might be tempted to believe you. Otherwise, you are simply trolling with phony bait.

The persecution you seek is the targeting of Christian schools labeling them "anti-science" when that is a really a straw man tactic to make Christian education appear "substandard". So they don't believe your religion, shut them down...nah no persecution there....

397 jaunte  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:34:21pm

re: #388 formercorpsman

Having a better social safety net means that education often isn't seen as critical for survival. The lessons the depression generation learned weren't passed on to their grandchildren.

398 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:34:33pm

re: #359 formercorpsman

We started losing when the Department of Education was implemented.

That was, indeed, a HUGE blow.

399 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:34:43pm

re: #357 wolfie

There are public schools in California, as in other states, where over a third of HS graduates read below a 4th grade level. ( A 2008 4th grade level, which is equivalent to a 2nd grade 1950 level.) Some are functionally illiterate. And of course, in some of these schools a majority of students do not even graduate.
The top 4% from these schools get automatic admission to the US system.....in the interest of covert affirmative action.

THAT is "substandard education" to me.


And this is where things get murky for me.

Let's take the christian element out of this for just a second... now universities can deny ANY student because they don't approve of the textbooks used to educate the student. This opens the door for blanket exclusion by PUBLIC universities of students who go to Christian schools, without regard to any other of their qualifications. That's not scary to anybody here?

If the student scored well on ACT/SAT tests, can write a good entrance essay, and otherwise seems like a good fit for the school, s/he should be admitted. Give them a chance to sink or swim.

Denying a child entrance to a PUBLIC university simply because of what curriculum was employed seems rather discriminatory when other students who can hardly string a sentence together are admitted.

400 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:34:59pm

re: #332 jimc

*Yawn*

401 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:29pm

re: #394 Cartman

Well, then ask him what he had for lunch, or something. Fer cryin' out loud!

On Fox this morning, they prepared a normal "Michael Phelps" breakfast for one of their staff members.

It contained, I believe, 3000 calories.

It took the guy the entire show time to eat it all.

402 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:36pm

re: #348 Occasional Reader

Well, sure. If by "yada yada", you mean "evidence".

If by evidence you mean conjecture and guessing, then you got me!

403 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:39pm

re: #391 Naso Tang

I don't know, man. You went off the rails with that one.

404 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:39pm

re: #375 David IV of Georgia

True.

Neither is gaining access to the United States.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

405 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:57pm

re: #388 formercorpsman

We no longer value education and science in this country. Not on the left and not on the right. Don't fret for the human race, there are plenty of other countries willing to take our place as the leaders in science and technology. I'm betting on the longshot India, they value education and respect science.

406 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:36:03pm

re: #396 jimc

No one is stopping private schools from teaching what they want. What the schools can't do is force the university systems to accept their students.

407 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:36:31pm

re: #330 Naso Tang

I regret that you have not yet broken free of your "education", and the above sentence suggest why.

Again. There are SIMILARITIES between the modern world and the ancient world. But there are profound DIFFERENCES too. Symbols and motifs and patterns of various kinds remain important to people today. But they likely had a profundity and sacredness and seriousness and power to the ancients that a lot of modern people really can't grasp, no matter how New-Agey and horoscopey and psychic hotline calling and pyramid power they may be. Much superstition today is largely a reaction to science and skepticism and the reality of a vast and seemingly uncaring universe...back then it was how people explained their world, it was how peoples explained and justified their existence. Their world was smaller, it was filled with spirits and demons, the heavens were just above, the hells just below. Again, many people today see the world that way too. But do they really see it in EXACTLY the same way the ancients did? No, they can't. They just know too much more about reality than the ancients did, they can't help it. Just living in this modern world, no matter how much they might try to avoid knowledge of scientific realities, they're still going to pick some up.

Really, you made my point for me. Yes, symbols, patterns, motifs, are powerfully meaningful for many people today. All I'm saying is that they were probably even more important to people in the ancient, prescientific world, even more intrinsic and fundamental to their lives.

408 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:37:01pm

re: #402 jimc

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

409 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:37:40pm

re: #402 jimc

If by evidence you mean conjecture and guessing, then you got me!

Strange how they manage to fill entire museums with "conjecture and guessing". But you just believe whatever makes you happy.

410 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:37:56pm

re: #400 Slumbering Behemoth

*Yawn*

That's clever, gave a link to the trollz website. Ha, you're funny. The gestapo tactics of the evolutionist, expelled is fiction eh...

411 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:38:22pm

re: #390 Catttt

Oooooh - Bobby Vee! :) I remember listening to that on the radio when I was a kid. I know all the words to that one.

How does the song look through a Catttt's eyes?
;]

412 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:38:32pm

re: #397 jaunte

Having a better social safety net means that education often isn't seen as critical for survival. The lessons the depression generation learned weren't passed on to their grandchildren.

That's a great point. Why strive for a good education to provide for yourself when the government will provide for you?

413 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:38:40pm

re: #384 Charles

Sure, they can run their schools any way they like, and teach their students anything they like. Nobody is telling them otherwise.

What they can't do: expect the state's university system to accept students that have been "educated" to believe in religious fanaticism.

If anyone wishes to teach dubious theories or profundities too wonderful for the hoi polloi, the masses, one is free to start one's own school. Trying to lie and decieve to get taxpayers to pay for it is wrong.

414 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:38:40pm

re: #395 formercorpsman

Charles, I thought most states impose a minimum educational standard on alternative schools.

Not being contrary, but that was always my understanding.

Our state does. But those standards do not necessarily require a college prep curriculum in order to graduate from H.S.

My daughter attends a Christian (Catholic) school. Her classes ensure that the study of science and the study of religion are kept separate. And her science classes are rigorous enough that she will meet the state university's standard for instruction in that subject.

I think the issue here is that these students have received instruction, possibly meeting the state standards, but the instruction is not sufficiently science-oriented to allow admission into the university system.

415 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:38:46pm

re: #399 blue_like_jazz

Let's take the christian element out of this for just a second... now universities can deny ANY student because they don't approve of the textbooks used to educate the student.

You cannot take the Christian element out of this. These schools are teaching anti-science fundamentalist religious nonsense to their students and calling it science. That's why their accreditation was refused. Period.

416 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:39:32pm

re: #392 wolfie

My argument in a nut shell.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Did we not just see a headline today about the Fairness Doctrine reaching beyond the airwaves and on to the internet?

417 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:40:25pm

re: #393 OldLineTexan

I used the sarc symbolism, people!

Are we lacking a common cultural reference point?

I figured that since it was written in Fwench and not the lingua franca English, it may have proved troublesome for some.

418 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:40:48pm

re: #409 Occasional Reader

Strange how they manage to fill entire museums with "conjecture and guessing". But you just believe whatever makes you happy.


Yeah strange how they once took a modern pig tooth and made an entire species of pre-modern man only to find themselves humiliated later. Perhaps less faith and more science is needed in the field of evolutionary studies...

419 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:41:35pm

re: #405 Killgore Trout

I agree, but how did it get that way?

It would seem to me, we have more of society in possession of higher education than compared to the 5 decades ago.

More money is spent per child.

There has to be more than just not respecting the science, or the education itself.

420 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:41:52pm

re: #396 jimc

The persecution you seek is the targeting of Christian schools labeling them "anti-science" when that is a really a straw man tactic to make Christian education appear "substandard". So they don't believe your religion, shut them down...nah no persecution there....

You are a seamstress that works in whole cloth. Peddle your BS line of perceived religious persecution to a Holocaust survivor and see how far that gets you.

421 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:41:52pm

re: #388 formercorpsman

Killgore, I am being serious, and no I am not playing the straw-man.

We led the world at one time, what happened to our education system?

Truth is, it is not only the education system that matters, it is the social attitude and social cohesion as much as anything. Once upon a time people worked to save money for the future, now they borrow it thinking they will save enough in the future.

422 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:42:09pm

re: #417 David IV of Georgia

I figured that since it was written in Fwench and not the lingua franca English, it may have proved troublesome for some.

Latin root clues and all that.

Of course, I knew puto right away.

423 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:42:31pm

re: #402 jimc

If by evidence you mean conjecture and guessing, then you got me!

After the world record turd, you push out a short one.

424 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:43:26pm

re: #415 Charles

You cannot take the Christian element out of this. These schools are teaching anti-science fundamentalist nonsense to their students and calling it science. That's why their accreditation was refused. Period.


so, then... what is a science education supposed to teach a student?

the scientific method?

critical thinking?

are those the important qualifiers?

or is swallowing evolution hook, line, and sinker the qualification you're looking for?

425 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:43:54pm

re: #421 Naso Tang

But that does not answer the crime, teenage pregnancy rates, and overall decline of student decorum.

426 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:44:14pm

re: #403 Noam Sayin'

I don't know, man. You went off the rails with that one.

That's OK, these conversation are better put down gently.

427 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:44:46pm

re: #424 blue_like_jazz

so, then... what is a science education supposed to teach a student?

the scientific method?

critical thinking?

are those the important qualifiers?

or is swallowing evolution hook, line, and sinker the qualification you're looking for?

A science education is NOT supposed to teach a student that if the Bible conflicts with science, they should believe the Bible. That's explicitly what was being taught here.

428 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:45:01pm

re: #423 Tigger2005

After the world record turd, you push out a short one.

You crazy evolutionists are so witty!

429 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:45:03pm

re: #395 formercorpsman

Charles, I thought most states impose a minimum educational standard on alternative schools.

Not being contrary, but that was always my understanding.

I have to say this - never assume. In particular, never assume when it has anything to do with schools in California.

I did check one of the schools' Web sites, and they had a list of accreditations. My understanding is that the uni felt the curriculum was not rigorous enough to qualify as college prep.

430 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:45:31pm

did they learn kingdom, phylum, class?

anatomy?

mitosis vs. meiosis?

the punnett square and mendel?

431 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:45:42pm

re: #425 formercorpsman

But that does not answer the crime, teenage pregnancy rates, and overall decline of student decorum.

When I was growing up, I did not need the school to teach me to learn to behave properly. My parents taught me that, through their parenting.

432 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:45:52pm

re: #418 jimc

Yeah strange how they once took a modern pig tooth and made an entire species of pre-modern man only to find themselves humiliated later. Perhaps less faith and more science is needed in the field of evolutionary studies...

Does it bother you that your "gotcha" story is mostly bullshit? Do you even care about facts?

433 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:46:18pm

re: #361 Sharmuta

I can appreciate your concern for education standards- I think all Lizards are concerned about them. However- the point remains that we don't correct poor standards in education by inserting more bias or bias of a different nature.

You do realize that you have a biased view of history? Very biased. And backward. All that genuflecting before the holy Constitution, which, as anyone can tell you, is a piece of crap written to crush women and minorities.

You want to send your kids to a school that teaches your backward ideas? Fine. But forget going into the UC system later.

Where does this stop?
When no one can escape the arm of the state.

434 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:46:20pm

re: #430 blue_like_jazz

did they learn kingdom, phylum, class?

anatomy?

mitosis vs. meiosis?

the punnett square and mendel?

What part of:

The people who prepared this book have tried consistently to put the Word of God first and science second...If...at any point God’s Word is not put first, the authors apologize.

... is unclear to you?

435 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:46:25pm

re: #284 jimc

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

Calling a silk purse a sow's ear doesn't make it pork. Evolutionary theory is one of the most empirical-evidence-supported theories in all of science. For 150 years it has been investigated, and all the credible data returned has corroborated it, and none whatsoever has contradicted it.

And once again I note and reject the pathetic attempt to reduce empirical science to the status of dogmatic religion, when dogmatic religion failes to make it as empirical science. There is no need to believe in what one may know via a dispassionate perusal of the evidence. And evidence and testability are what separate evolutionary theory from creationist dogma.

436 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:47:03pm

re: #419 formercorpsman

It's a cultural thing. We, as a society, have decided that we don't like or trust science. I don't know exactly why but it has happened. We are rapidly becoming soft, overly sensitive and weak. I don't blame religion for this, it's a decision we made as a culture.

437 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:47:33pm
Agreed.

To survive in this day and age you must understand, work with and employ science as it stands today. Without it you will not be able to operate in today's world.

And yet, here I am, a believer in the creation of the universe and mankind as described in the King James Bible, somehow operating quite well in "today's world." Of course, when my time comes, I'll gladly leave "today's world" for a better one.

Here's a question for all the rational thinking scholars here: is there anything Jesus said or did in the Bible, anything He quoted from the Old Testament, anything he clearly stated a belief in, that by the standards of "today's world" is clearly irrational? Anything that contradicts all our fine scientific "facts"?

438 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:47:34pm

re: #424 blue_like_jazz

Got proof of ID? Can you list the research projects Discovery has started to prove ID?

Meanwhile that science that you decry discovers new fossils every single day. Meanwhile that science you decry is mapping the historic human genome and finding the true paths of human migrations through genetics. Meanwhile... well you get the drift.

439 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:47:44pm

re: #411 solomonpanting

How does the song look through a Catttt's eyes?
;]

I loved that song, but I have to say - I couldn't watch more than a few seconds of that vid - yee gods!

We used to listen to KOMA every night. Sigh. Memories and stuff.

440 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:48:13pm

re: #421 Naso Tang

+

441 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:48:38pm

re: #414 reine.de.tout

I also thought that competency testing was part and parcel for weeding incompetence out as well.

Don;t get me wrong, I am not playing devil's advocate for what was being done.

I have a religious (christian) school near my house. I know some of the folks they let teach there. They are ignorant. I would never let my kids attend.

However, I am just as concerned about what is being taught to them once inside the state institution.

442 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:49:07pm

re: #432 Occasional Reader

Does it bother you that your "gotcha" story is mostly bullshit? Do you even care about facts?

It's a talking point. They don't understand the issues, and they have no desire to understand the issues -- they just parrot the talking points.

443 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:50:13pm

re: #415 Charles

You cannot take the Christian element out of this. These schools are teaching anti-science fundamentalist religious nonsense to their students and calling it science. That's why their accreditation was refused. Period.

If a university accepts substandard students, it is remotely possible for a university to find its own accreditation in jeopardy. No school is obliged to accept academic records that it feels is substandard. Most will let their decisions be challenged, but don't be surprised to find they stand by their decision.

444 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:50:19pm

Bedtime! Good night.

445 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:50:24pm

re: #427 Charles

A science education is NOT supposed to teach a student that if the Bible conflicts with science, they should believe the Bible. That's explicitly what was being taught here.

You assume too much, that evolution is true science.

faith
Noun
1. strong belief in something, esp. without proof

My computer science logic tells me that since evolution cannot be proved, it is therefore a faith based initiative, tapping true sciences to conjure up this religion of evolution. Therefore, neither ID nor Evolution should be taught.

446 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:50:34pm

re: #436 Killgore Trout

It's a cultural thing. We, as a society, have decided that we don't like or trust science. I don't know exactly why but it has happened. We are rapidly becoming soft, overly sensitive and weak. I don't blame religion for this, it's a decision we made as a culture.

Killgore, on this I agree with you.

Esp - we as a society have decided we don't like or trust science.

As well as, it seems, other things that are difficult to learn and require critical thinking skills.

447 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:50:35pm

re: #430 blue_like_jazz

did they learn kingdom, phylum, class?

anatomy?

mitosis vs. meiosis?

the punnett square and mendel?


Kingdom phylum class aren't really relevant anymore. Even Demski says so. Why don't you brush up on some science before you speak?

Phylogenetic tree

Clades

448 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:50:44pm

re: #443 David IV of Georgia

If a university accepts substandard students, it is remotely possible for a university to find its own accreditation in jeopardy. No school is obliged to accept academic records that it feels is substandard. Most will let their decisions be challenged, but don't be surprised to find they stand by their decision.

Exactly.

449 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:50:51pm

re: #434 Charles

my point is this:

even if the Bible is put first, if those kids graduated with enough scientific knowledge, it shouldn't matter.

they are coming from a specific worldview, yes...

HOWEVER

if the student demonstrates basic proficiency in the subject they shouldn't be blocked from admission.

so, all things being equal, are you telling me you'd rather fund an illiterate's education at university rather than a child who had been taught from a creationist perspective?

450 mobaby  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:51:11pm

They will just have to go to other universities. No big loss, for the students.
They should test the students and see where they stand against their counterparts in the public schools.
Make no mistake - this is about more than science - it's about shutting down any competition to both the public school system and societal group think.

451 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:51:34pm

re: #422 OldLineTexan

Latin root clues and all that.

Of course, I knew puto right away.

I just like an excuse to write "lingua franca English".

452 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:51:40pm

I noticed one of the books they used is "Chemistry for Christian Schools."

WTF?

That just makes zero sense. I mean, it makes it sound like for each science, each religion must have its own book. People, science is - you know - SCIENCE.

453 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:51:53pm

re: #363 Killgore Trout

Education in this country sucks, you won't get any argument out of me on that. Why should we make it worse by forcing universities to accept substandard curriculum dictated by religious nuts?

The history and English curricula are not "substandard" at these schools. That is, they are not inferior to the standards of most public schools.
They are ideologically "backward," I'm sure.

454 Jim D  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:52:18pm

re: #418 jimc

Yeah strange how they once took a modern pig tooth and made an entire species of pre-modern man only to find themselves humiliated later. Perhaps less faith and more science is needed in the field of evolutionary studies...

This is an example of science working. Mistakes and frauds get rooted out, that's what happens.

455 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:52:20pm

re: #425 formercorpsman

But that does not answer the crime, teenage pregnancy rates, and overall decline of student decorum.

So, even if the creationists' claims are false, they should be taught anyway because they're good for social order?

One compromise could be to set up two tiers of education. The common plebeians get taught Intelligent Design and patriotic history (if it shows the right kind of Christian in a good light). The elite get taught real science. The elite then delegate some of their own to keep feeding the plebs the comforting myths which keep them in line.

This argument isn't new, and I'm not being facetious. I recall it from Plato's "republic".

456 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:52:29pm

re: #407 Tigger2005


Really, you made my point for me. Yes, symbols, patterns, motifs, are powerfully meaningful for many people today. All I'm saying is that they were probably even more important to people in the ancient, prescientific world, even more intrinsic and fundamental to their lives.

I don't disagree with most of what you say, but I have to remind you (sometimes I need that too) that we started out with the simple premise that people "know" that certain ancient stories were "meant" to be taken allegorically.

I simply said that since the writers gave no indication that this was the case, I doubt that they intended the writings to be taken as such, even though (I add) that is how they are interpreted today, because otherwise they would be, shall we say, silly.

We can find meaning in anything. The question is what meaning do we look for?

457 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:53:00pm

re: #438 Thanos

give me a break!

i don't decry science ANYWHERE... show me where i've done so. quit being such a knee-jerk.


re: #447 Thanos

sorry, i was just hearkening back to the science education i received (at a college prep high school and a college with a top biology program)

458 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:53:12pm

re: #407 Tigger2005

Again. There are SIMILARITIES between the modern world and the ancient world. But there are profound DIFFERENCES too. Symbols and motifs and patterns of various kinds remain important to people today. But they likely had a profundity and sacredness and seriousness and power to the ancients that a lot of modern people really can't grasp, no matter how New-Agey and horoscopey and psychic hotline calling and pyramid power they may be. Much superstition today is largely a reaction to science and skepticism and the reality of a vast and seemingly uncaring universe...back then it was how people explained their world, it was how peoples explained and justified their existence. Their world was smaller, it was filled with spirits and demons, the heavens were just above, the hells just below. Again, many people today see the world that way too. But do they really see it in EXACTLY the same way the ancients did? No, they can't. They just know too much more about reality than the ancients did, they can't help it. Just living in this modern world, no matter how much they might try to avoid knowledge of scientific realities, they're still going to pick some up.

Really, you made my point for me. Yes, symbols, patterns, motifs, are powerfully meaningful for many people today. All I'm saying is that they were probably even more important to people in the ancient, prescientific world, even more intrinsic and fundamental to their lives.

And I forgot to mention...ancient peoples were much more closely connected to the patterns and rhythms of nature than most people today...the stars, tides, phases of the moon, passage of the seasons. They rose and slept with the sun. Symbols connected with these things are still quite powerful and meaningful to people today, but can modern people really know how powerful and meaningful they were to those who lived in an age before electric lights and supermarkets?

459 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:53:14pm

re: #426 Naso Tang

That's OK, these conversation are better put down gently.

I'll walk away when you walk away.

460 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:53:27pm

re: #435 Salamantis

And evidence and testability are what separate evolutionary theory from creationist dogma.

Evidence and testability? where? Show me....and not some half-baked genetic variation within the same species, show me evidence of the testability of speciation.

461 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:53:46pm

re: #406 Sharmuta


No one is stopping private schools from teaching what they want. What the schools can't do is force the university systems to accept their students.

Seems to be a simple enough concept to grasp, yet it is going right over many people's heads.

462 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:53:50pm

re: #437 cslepage

is there anything Jesus said or did in the Bible, anything He quoted from the Old Testament, anything he clearly stated a belief in, that by the standards of "today's world" is clearly irrational? Anything that contradicts all our fine scientific "facts"?

24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


The Flood never happened.

463 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:54:10pm

re: #428 jimc

You crazy evolutionists are so witty!

Thank you, we evolved to be witty.

Apparently, you were created to be a smug ignoramous?

464 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:54:13pm

re: #441 formercorpsman

I also thought that competency testing was part and parcel for weeding incompetence out as well.

Don;t get me wrong, I am not playing devil's advocate for what was being done.

I have a religious (christian) school near my house. I know some of the folks they let teach there. They are ignorant. I would never let my kids attend.

However, I am just as concerned about what is being taught to them once inside the state institution.

It would be just as wrong to teach a student in a public school that religion is bullshit as it would be to teach faith in a public school. And if that happens, parents should protest until the matter is settled. Parents must stay on top of what their kids are learning in school.

Which is why it is important for parents and the churches of their choice (not the public schools) to teach kids faith (or not, as they deem appropriate).

465 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:54:15pm

re: #449 blue_like_jazz

so, all things being equal, are you telling me you'd rather fund an illiterate's education at university rather than a child who had been taught from a creationist perspective?

Where did I say anything remotely like that?

Good grief.

466 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:54:52pm

re: #434 Charles

That is a pretty clear declaration there.

467 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:55:36pm

re: #453 wolfie

The history and English curricula are not "substandard" at these schools.


Yes they are. See #24.

468 Jim D  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:56:10pm

re: #449 blue_like_jazz

my point is this:

even if the Bible is put first, if those kids graduated with enough scientific knowledge, it shouldn't matter.

they are coming from a specific worldview, yes...

HOWEVER

if the student demonstrates basic proficiency in the subject they shouldn't be blocked from admission.

so, all things being equal, are you telling me you'd rather fund an illiterate's education at university rather than a child who had been taught from a creationist perspective?

I'd rather have neither admitted to universities.

469 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:56:18pm

re: #457 blue_like_jazz

give me a break!

i don't decry science ANYWHERE... show me where i've done so. quit being such a knee-jerk.

You certainly do when you think teaching the bible as fundamentally literal truth in place of historic and scientific fact is ok as a science education.

470 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:56:44pm

re: #462 Killgore Trout

The Flood never happened.

So, by stating a belief in an event that science today tells us never happened, doesn't that invalidate everything else He said? If we can't trust Jesus to get his historical facts correct, how can we believe anything else that came out of His mouth?

471 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:57:24pm

re: #431 reine.de.tout

I agree.

472 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:57:26pm

re: #460 jimc

If you were really interested, you could take the time to research this yourself, but instead you'd rather troll here.

473 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:58:23pm

re: #445 jimc

My computer science logic tells me that since evolution cannot be proved, it is therefore a faith based initiative, tapping true sciences to conjure up this religion of evolution. Therefore, neither ID nor Evolution should be taught.


Shoot. Two years registered and little participation suggesting that you have chosen to read nothing on the subject here, nor presumably anywhere.

All I can say is that if you be a troll, you be a poor one.

474 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:59:28pm

re: #410 jimc

That's clever, gave a link to the trollz website. Ha, you're funny. The gestapo tactics of the evolutionist, expelled is fiction eh...

My, you are a troll with one voracious appetite. My not so clever link has done nothing but poke fun, and in no way has persecuted you, nor has it "expelled" you from any place. Hell, it hasn't even inconvenienced you in any way.

/the martyr complex is strong in this one

475 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:59:32pm

re: #470 cslepage

If we can't trust Jesus to get his historical facts correct, how can we believe anything else that came out of His mouth?


You're barking up the wrong tree. I don't think he ever existed. The story of JC is a retelling of the story of Mithra (and other gods) with an anti-Roman slant in my humble opinion.

476 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:59:35pm

re: #332 jimc

I didn't say ID is a better theory, but just because you can't find a better theory than evolution doesn't make it right, it just means that is the better than the alternative.

IDers attack evolutionary theory precisely because they want their pseudoalternative taught instead, but when you get right down to it, there's no there there. Michael Medved and George Gilder have admitted as much. All that would be left is bowing to creationists and teaching Genesis as fact, and that doesn't pass the empirical smell test with a gas mask on.

Evolution is the "Yada yada yada" theory...lifeless planet, yada yada yada, single celled organisms doing well for themselves and then yada yada yada, Cambrian explosion, creatures doing well for themselves, yada yada yada, sea creatures doing well for them selves, yada yada yada, land creatures, land creatures, yada yada yada, monkeys decide they need to see color, yada yada yada, RGB true color porn right on the screen...

Umm...there are about umpteen million scientific papers that you didn't include. Stuff such as Lenski's e. coli, and transitional fossils, and artifactual retroviral DNA, and decoded genomes, and gene-splicing, and radiometric dating, etc.

Evolution means never having to explain how or why, just make up a good story have it published by good story lovers and then it can be used as reference material by bloggers...straw man science. There is no critical thinking in evolution just great story telling...

Actually, the 'how' that we have been able to figure out since Watson & Crick took Darwin & Mendel seriously and searched for and found DNA is helping us to transform the fields of medicine and food production.

477 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:00:17pm

re: #460 jimc

Evidence and testability? where? Show me....and not some half-baked genetic variation within the same species, show me evidence of the testability of speciation.

Speciation or incipient speciation has been observed in nature and in the laboratory.

Speciation can also be observed in the fossil record. For example, the transition from land mammal to early whale is well documented. Surely you don't think the land-based ancestor of the whale is the same species as the whale, do you?

478 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:00:37pm

re: #473 Naso Tang

Shoot. Two years registered and little participation suggesting that you have chosen to read nothing on the subject here, nor presumably anywhere.

Humans have genetic similarities with chimpanzees and gorillas, suggesting common ancestors.

Neither assumption is likely accurate.

479 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:01:53pm

re: #459 Noam Sayin'

I'll walk away when you walk away.

Midnight is about to ring, and we know what that means, but trust me, I'll be back (assuming you have anything of significance to add).

480 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:02:06pm

re: #478 cslepage

Humans have genetic similarities with chimpanzees and gorillas, suggesting common ancestors.

Neither assumption is likely accurate.

So what really bothers you, really really bothers you deep down in a place where reason cannot reach, is that you might be genetically related to a chimpanzee? Is that correct?

481 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:02:06pm

re: #470 cslepage

That's just poor reasoning.

482 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:02:07pm

re: #478 cslepage

Humans have genetic similarities with chimpanzees and gorillas, suggesting common ancestors.

Neither assumption is likely accurate.

You are a primate, get over it.

483 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:02:38pm

re: #460 jimc

Evidence and testability? where? Show me....and not some half-baked genetic variation within the same species, show me evidence of the testability of speciation.

Here you go.

484 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:03:11pm

re: #363 Killgore Trout

Education in this country sucks, you won't get any argument out of me on that. Why should we make it worse by forcing universities to accept substandard curriculum dictated by religious nuts?

Yep. As I have said before, you don't cure arsenic poisoning by dosing the patient with strychnine.

485 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:03:48pm

re: #436 Killgore Trout

I would buy that argument, but science also took communication from analog transmissions to digital.

We seem to love the science behind cell phones, ipods, flat screen televisions, etc.

You can't imagine how many times I am asked if we are going to operate on someone's knee with a laser. (I should buy one of those star trek things off ebay)

Perhaps it is certain science, granted.

But something has gone awry.

486 Rancher  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:04:02pm

So it is about oil. First Yukos, Then Georgia


Now the world is getting an idea of what a "war for oil" really looks like. Few in the West appreciate the degree to which Vladimir Putin and the Soviet, er, Russian, elite subscribe to a prewar view of power relations and national greatness. Their view is not based on self-reproducing institutions and innovation and the power of trade, but on territory and resources -- lebensraum, as one of their intellectual progenitors called it.

Whatever the pretexts and emotional resonances, the Republic of Georgia, transit territory for two important energy pipelines, was also a challenge to Mr. Putin's pursuit of power through control of energy supplies, especially for home heating, to Western Europe.

487 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:04:16pm

re: #484 Salamantis

Yep. As I have said before, you don't cure arsenic poisoning by dosing the patient with strychnine.

That reminds me. I've been meaning to re-read some of those old Agatha Christie novels.

488 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:04:59pm

re: #469 Thanos

You certainly do when you think teaching the bible as fundamentally literal truth in place of historic and scientific fact is ok as a science education.


nah, that's a straw man argument.

i'm good with science. biology is a the study of living things and their environments, right?

for some people, their faith in a Creator helps explain how things happened. so what? if they can regurgitate the stuff the universities want them to "know" who cares if they believe the Bible is more important or not?

as i have repeatedly said, if the students in question could demonstrate proficiency in these subjects, they should not have been rejected.

489 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:05:29pm

re: #473 Naso Tang

Shoot. Two years registered and little participation suggesting that you have chosen to read nothing on the subject here, nor presumably anywhere.

All I can say is that if you be a troll, you be a poor one.

I've read plenty and the piling up of pro-evolutionist commentary and anti-creationist (and by extension Bible literalists) has spurred me to get into the fray here. I enjoy LGF when it is going after the Islamic extremists and moonbats, this anti-creationist trend is motivating. That and I've been busy writing thousands upon thousands of lines of code in the last few years has kept me quite busy....

490 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:07:05pm

re: #457 blue_like_jazz

give me a break!

i don't decry science ANYWHERE... show me where i've done so.

I am happy to oblige -

re: #399 blue_like_jazz

And this is where things get murky for me.

Let's take the christian element out of this for just a second... now universities can deny ANY student because they don't approve of the textbooks used to educate the student. This opens the door for blanket exclusion by PUBLIC universities of students who go to Christian schools, without regard to any other of their qualifications. That's not scary to anybody here?

You told us, first thing you posted here, that writing eloquently was as important as writing rationally.

You didn't "decry" science but you did dismiss it to the level of sophistry.

491 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:07:14pm

re: #488 blue_like_jazz

How old do you think the earth is?

492 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:07:56pm

re: #485 formercorpsman

But something has gone awry.


Indeed. If you figure out what it is let me know.

493 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:07:56pm

re: #489 jimc

You mean like the islamic extremists who are in bed with American creationists?

494 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:08:36pm

i have no idea... probably billions of years.

495 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:09:03pm

re: #477 Tigger2005

Speciation or incipient speciation has been observed in nature and in the laboratory.

Speciation can also be observed in the fossil record. For example, the transition from land mammal to early whale is well documented. Surely you don't think the land-based ancestor of the whale is the same species as the whale, do you?

Speciation observed in the fossil record is a joke. Bones looking like another proves nothing. I'd like you to send me a link to the "observed in nature and in the laboratory" part.

496 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:09:25pm

re: #489 jimc

I've read plenty and the piling up of pro-evolutionist commentary and anti-creationist (and by extension Bible literalists) has spurred me to get into the fray here. I enjoy LGF when it is going after the Islamic extremists and moonbats, this anti-creationist trend is motivating. That and I've been busy writing thousands upon thousands of lines of code in the last few years has kept me quite busy....

I hope I never have to take the antibiotics you coded the software for.

497 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:09:29pm

re: #493 Sharmuta

You mean like the islamic extremists who are in bed with American creationists?

I have no jihadi in my bed....

498 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:09:39pm

re: #492 Killgore Trout

Will do man.

499 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:09:57pm

re: #399 blue_like_jazz

Denying a child entrance to a PUBLIC university simply because of what curriculum was employed seems rather discriminatory when other students who can hardly string a sentence together are admitted.

Denying an ADULT (most college entry folks are at least 18 yrs or older) entry based on the curricula of their preceding institutions is not discriminatory, it is simply setting a standard for admission. A standard that is commonly met by many private schools.

As to that last part: without proof, you saying that Universities accept students that "can hardly string a sentence together" is nothing more than conjecture; specifically: an inference from defective or presumptive evidence.

500 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:10:22pm

re: #495 jimc

Speciation observed in the fossil record is a joke. Bones looking like another proves nothing. I'd like you to send me a link to the "observed in nature and in the laboratory" part.

Why not just admit that there's absolutely nothing anyone could ever show you that would change your mind, instead of demanding that people jump through hoops for you?

Unless it's the hoop-jumping part that you're after.

501 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:10:41pm

re: #495 jimc

. I'd like you to send me a link to the "observed in nature and in the laboratory" part.


Since you seem incapable of using google yourself...
Speciation

502 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:10:46pm

re: #497 jimc

Islamic creationist groups are working with American creationists groups.

503 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:10:59pm

re: #496 Zimriel

I hope I never have to take the antibiotics you coded the software for.

Unless business apps evolve into "antibiotics software", you're in no danger...

504 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:11:31pm

re: #384 Charles

Sure, they can run their schools any way they like, and teach their students anything they like. Nobody is telling them otherwise.

What they can't do: expect the state's university system to accept students that have been "educated" to believe in religious fanaticism.

The fact that Gary Nash is the point man judging their history curriculum doesn't concern you? This is a man who, outside of being virulently anti-American, believes that natural science is an evil construct devised by white supremacists.
Gary Nash, incidentally, made a big push to enforce his views on high school curricula in California and even nationwide in the 1990's. As things are going now, I suppose in enough time he will have his way.

But it's no problem. You can send your kid to a private school and teach them all that backward patriotic crap about the Constitution and those dead white males. You just can't go to college in the UC system. We have standards!

That is the kind of thing I am afraid of.

505 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:11:33pm

re: #499 Slumbering Behemoth

As to that last part: without proof, you saying that Universities accept students that "can hardly string a sentence together" is nothing more than conjecture; specifically: an inference from defective or presumptive evidence.

dude, i went to college. i KNOW what kind of people are accepted. it's not an inference.

506 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:11:35pm

re: #500 Charles

Unless it's the hoop-jumping part that you're after.


I fell for it.
/;)

507 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:11:47pm

re: #497 jimc

jimc.

I suspect you already know this, but I'll say it anyway.

You are displaying all the characteristics of a troll.

Ramping more asinine arguments with each post as the thread goes to bed.

Give it a break.

508 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:13:02pm

re: #385 FurryOldGuyJeans

And introducing ID into public schools solves this how? Might as well beat the dog because your aged granny passed gas. Doing the latter makes as much sense as the former.

I am adamantly opposed to ID in the public schools, you twit.
What the hell does that have to do with anything I've said?

509 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:13:51pm

re: #508 wolfie

I am adamantly opposed to ID in the public schools, you twit.
What the hell does that have to do with anything I've said?

Nothing.

A lot of people just can't read past their perceptions of others.

It happens.

Goodnight.

510 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:14:01pm

re: #504 wolfie

This is not about Gary Nash. This is a ruling by the 9th circuit and will be upheld by the Supreme Court and the constitution as long as this nation stands.

511 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:14:17pm

re: #499 Slumbering Behemoth

Actually, I agree with the premise, there should be standards no doubt.

Often however, the same people denying this admission based on that principle are the same ideologues inviting A'jad, or enrolling former taliban members.

512 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:16:22pm

re: #396 jimc

The persecution you seek is the targeting of Christian schools labeling them "anti-science" when that is a really a straw man tactic to make Christian education appear "substandard". So they don't believe your religion, shut them down...nah no persecution there....

But such Christian schools as Calvary ARE anti-science. All that is necessary to come to such a conclusion is to peruse what passes for their science textbooks. The science 'education' they provide is not merely substandard, it is completely nonrelational.

Such dogma mills will not be shut down. They have a constitutional right to exist. But their graduates cannot reasonably expect for their religious indoctrination to be given credit as science education by any university system that possesses academic standards worthy of the name.

513 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:16:44pm

re: #508 wolfie

I am adamantly opposed to ID in the public schools, you twit.
What the hell does that have to do with anything I've said?

Yea..... I didn't get the connection either.

514 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:16:53pm

re: #495 jimc
More here....
Observed Instances of Speciation
Why embarrass yourself by spewing easily debunked talking points? It just doesn't make sense. Why bother?

515 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:17:57pm

re: #514 Killgore Trout

More here....
Observed Instances of Speciation
Why embarrass yourself by spewing easily debunked talking points? It just doesn't make sense. Why bother?

One reason why they bother: Christian Reconstructionism.

516 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:17:57pm

re: #508 wolfie

I am adamantly opposed to ID in the public schools, you twit.
What the hell does that have to do with anything I've said?

And I'm against crediting ID taught students for science in public universities. I don't want a doctor operating on me nowadays who doesn't understand genetic expression, or who doubts that tests done on rats or monkeys are also sometimes relevant to humans.

517 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:18:31pm

re: #418 jimc

Yeah strange how they once took a modern pig tooth and made an entire species of pre-modern man only to find themselves humiliated later. Perhaps less faith and more science is needed in the field of evolutionary studies...

Yeah, strange how it wasn't "Creationist Science" but "Darwinian Science" that debunked that whole pig tooth thing, and the Piltdown Man, and...

If memes were cars, you'd be a modern day Model-T salesman.

518 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:19:05pm

re: #402 jimc

If by evidence you mean conjecture and guessing, then you got me!

How many times have you been shown the definition of scientific theory? Well, I guess you need to be shown it one more time:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from or is supported by rigorous observations in the natural world, or by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections, inclusion in a yet wider theory, or succession. Commonly, many more specific hypotheses may be logically bound together by just one or two theories. As a rule for use of the term, theories tend to deal with much broader sets of universals than do hypotheses, which ordinarily deal with much more specific sets of phenomena or specific applications of a theory.

519 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:19:28pm

re: #488 blue_like_jazz

nah, that's a straw man argument.

i'm good with science. biology is a the study of living things and their environments, right?

for some people, their faith in a Creator helps explain how things happened. so what? if they can regurgitate the stuff the universities want them to "know" who cares if they believe the Bible is more important or not?

as i have repeatedly said, if the students in question could demonstrate proficiency in these subjects, they should not have been rejected.

Suggestion - review what ID and creationism put forth and call sciences. Realize that simple faith is not what they are putting forth. They are twisting science to fit their dogmatic beliefs.

Example: Man did not evolve - he was created about 6,000 years ago, just as he is now (Adam, Eve, etc.).

Dinosaurs were still around then. They were all vegetarians until "after the fall." Yes, in spite of those big teeth, they all ate veggies.

Read a bit of what these people want to teach and call science. Understand that we are not talking about faith.

Many people have faith but still understand that religious dogma in a science classroom is NOT science at all.

520 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:19:56pm

re: #515 Charles

Fools.

521 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:20:54pm
522 stevieray  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:21:03pm

re: #436 Killgore Trout

I don't see it as a decision we made as a culture, but as an outlook that has been sold to the people over the past two or three generations, by our mass media and even our schools at times, and done so for political reasons. Most of those doing the selling were well intentioned, and most didn't even realize they were doing it, but it was nevertheless sold, not just adopted out of the blue.

We went from a nation that treated the astronauts like sports superstars, to a nation quivering in fear over The China Syndrome, Alar, and acid rain in a single generation.

523 Zoomie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:21:58pm

re: #457 blue_like_jazz

Blue agree with you. Hundreds of thousands of kiddos have graduated from Christian high schools - with similar curriculum, and are now doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc.

LGFers need a little more concern about our wonderful, all knowing, government possibly crossing a line and imposing philosophy and a state-approved worldview on the church, in the name of science.

I recall my Ukrainian friend who's daughter got kicked out of the state school because of her unscientific beliefs. She was able to travel into another province in Russia and get readmitted into nursing school. She had to go to a location where they knew she was not from a family of 'believers'. Nope, I am not saying the UC system is persecuting or are commies, etc. I am surprised at the delight expressed in seeing the government, by implication, crack down on private schools.

524 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:22:03pm

re: #516 Thanos

And I'm against crediting ID taught students for science in public universities. I don't want a doctor operating on me nowadays who doesn't understand genetic expression, or who doubts that tests done on rats or monkeys are also sometimes relevant to humans.


Again, how do you know that those students

don't understand genetic expression, or who doubts that tests done on rats or monkeys are also sometimes relevant to humans

?

after a college education, i'm sure those things would have been thoroughly instilled, yes?

still no one here has refuted my stance that if the students applying for admission could demonstrate standard proficiency in science they should have been admitted.

525 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:22:07pm

OK- I didn't want to jump through hoops, but I will share a link:

Nylonase

526 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:22:14pm

re: #501 Killgore Trout

Since you seem incapable of using google yourself...
Speciation

Something tells me he can't click either, because it appears that he didn't click on my finch speciation link.

527 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:22:28pm

re: #410 jimc

That's clever, gave a link to the trollz website. Ha, you're funny. The gestapo tactics of the evolutionist, expelled is fiction eh...

There was a decent documentary about universities, education, classroom bias, and academic standards put out recently, but it wasn't Expelled (which is a creationist homage to Michael Moore).

It was Indoctrinate U.

[Link: indoctrinate-u.com...]

528 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:23:13pm

re: #500 Charles

Why not just admit that there's absolutely nothing anyone could ever show you that would change your mind, instead of demanding that people jump through hoops for you?

Unless it's the hoop-jumping part that you're after.

That's not true. I have yet to see absolute scientific proof, that is a repeatable testable case that shows speciation. I'm ok with genetic variation within species, we have that in the human race, clearly. What I object to is the speciation giving rise to more complex structures simply by accident which looks great on the macro level but when you zoom in on the small increments, it starts to look very wishy washy.

I watched the two episodes on evolution that you advertised here and the thing that stuck out the most was the explanation of the evolution of the eye, what a flimsy crock of pooh. The explanation relies heavily on ignoring some fundamental questions like why did the first light sensitive cells form in the first place? How did a genetic accident result in such a astounding fundamental achievement that survived beyond the first mutant? How did that first mutant to get the "accident" replicate it to enough generations to have the mutation become a useful tool? Why did later generations form concave light sensitive cells groupings? What drove that evolution? Why was it necesary? Or was it just another happy accident?

I want details, I'm not going to be satisfied with the yada yada answer explanation we get from these people.

529 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:23:18pm

re: #525 Sharmuta

OK- I didn't want to jump through hoops, but I will share a link:

Nylonase

They can eat it all, as far as I'm concerned. I'm allergic to nylon.

530 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:23:35pm

re: #520 Killgore Trout

Fools.

Chalcedon 1

Chalcedon 2

There were Armenian Rushdoonies at both.

531 Jim D  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:23:38pm

re: #523 Zoomie

Blue agree with you. Hundreds of thousands of kiddos have graduated from Christian high schools - with similar curriculum, and are now doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc.

LGFers need a little more concern about our wonderful, all knowing, government possibly crossing a line and imposing philosophy and a state-approved worldview on the church, in the name of science.

I recall my Ukrainian friend who's daughter got kicked out of the state school because of her unscientific beliefs. She was able to travel into another province in Russia and get readmitted into nursing school. She had to go to a location where they knew she was not from a family of 'believers'. Nope, I am not saying the UC system is persecuting or are commies, etc. I am surprised at the delight expressed in seeing the government, by implication, crack down on private schools.

I wasn't a crackdown on private schools. It was the enforcement of a basic standard of scientific literacy.

532 jaunte  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:24:07pm

re: #515 Charles

The Christian Reconstructionist connection is illustrated by a statement made by William Dembski (one of the chief proponentsists of intelligent design) in his essay Unapologetic Apologetics: Meeting the Challenges of Theological Studies (2001). It's clear he accepts only Christianity, and only his particular form of Christianity, as the correct basis for Intelligent Design. He claims that Christians have a mandate to "bring every aspect of life under the influence of the truth."

"As we engage the world with the truth of Christianity, we need to recognize how very high are the stakes... Christianity claims to possess humanity's ultimate truth, but also that this truth is so urgent that a person ignores it at his or her peril. the opportunity to take part in the divine life is regarded by Scripture and church tradition as the best news there is. But Christianity also has a dark side: those who refuse to embrace this truth face separation from that divine life... The Scripture and church tradition are univocal on this point; only this time the picture they present is incredibly bleak. People's lives are in the balance. not every story will have a happy ending. Everything is not going to turn out all right in the end. Only where God's grace is manifested will things turn our all right. But where God's grace is spurned, things will not turn out all right. There is a move afoot... in theological circles to embrace universalism – that in the end everyone will be saved. this is the teaching neither of Scripture nor of church tradition... Our feel-good pop psychologies urge us to think it befitting of God to save everyone. Reality however, is not determined by what we think fitting. We should be comforted in knowing that the God who decides human destinies is rich in love and mercy. But we must never neglect the holiness and justice of God.
The truth of Christ is glorious and urgent. It follows that Christians have a mandate to declare it. This mandate consists of bringing every aspect of life under the influence of the truth."

533 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:24:41pm

re: #523 Zoomie

I am surprised at the delight expressed in seeing the government, by implication, crack down on private schools.

This is a completely distorted version of what happened here. No one "cracked down" on anything. The Christian schools very deliberately chose fundamentalist textbooks that specifically elevated Biblical literalism over science, and called it science. The UC board said, "if you're going to teach that, we're not going to accredit these classes."

I do applaud this decision, and hope they never change this policy.

534 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:25:20pm

re: #511 formercorpsman

Actually, I agree with the premise, there should be standards no doubt.

Often however, the same people denying this admission based on that principle are the same ideologues inviting A'jad, or enrolling former taliban members.

You might have a point on that. And as far as public institutions go, this is one of many areas where citizens should be very aware of who they vote for.

535 reuben  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:25:51pm

re: #2 rawmuse

re: #519 Catttt

As someone who's been there, done that as far as the intelligent design/creationism/evolution debate goes, I find it odd that a conservative, Christian-majority blog is so against Creationism. There's far more "twisting" of science to support evolution than there is to support creation. Not to mention twisting of logic. Not to mention blind, dogmatic faith. Ever tried arguing the point with an evolutionist? You'd know what I mean.

536 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:26:22pm

re: #505 blue_like_jazz

dude, i went to college. i KNOW what kind of people are accepted. it's not an inference.

Dude, I'm going to college (not even a freakin' university). I KNOW the people I am taking classes with. It was not just an inference, it was an inference based on presumptive or defective knowledge.

You made the claim that universities accept those who can not string a sentence together, insinuating that they favor functional illiterates over those who have gone to Christian, private schools. It is up to you to provide the proof, conjecture does not cut it.

537 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:26:35pm

re: #418 jimc

Yeah strange how they once took a modern pig tooth and made an entire species of pre-modern man only to find themselves humiliated later. Perhaps less faith and more science is needed in the field of evolutionary studies...

Another common creationist tactic; to take a single error and try to make it count more than ten million successes.

Have you looked at the fossil hominid record lately? Or the meticulous empirical investigation to which they have been subjected?

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

[Link: www.talkorigins.org...]

538 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:27:10pm

Wow. They're coming out of the woodwork again tonight.

539 jaunte  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:27:31pm

It's a mandate.

540 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:28:37pm

re: #535 reuben

As someone who's been there, done that as far as the intelligent design/creationism/evolution debate goes, I find it odd that a conservative, Christian-majority blog is so against Creationism.

There is absolutely nothing "conservative" about creationism.

541 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:29:06pm

Yes they are.

542 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:29:33pm

re: #480 Charles

So what really bothers you, really really bothers you deep down in a place where reason cannot reach, is that you might be genetically related to a chimpanzee? Is that correct?

No. What really bothers me is, men and women in "today's world" will continue to ignore or deny the truth of the Bible. They will continue to ignore or deny the sacrifice Jesus made to pay the price for our sins. For that matter, as long as we insist we are all just stumbling down a path ruled by evolution, speciation, and so on, then we are just animals, and things like morals, right and wrong, are temporary concerns.

What really bothers me is the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell. Someone can believe in global warming or not and not have their life fundamentally affected. Someone could convince themselves they understand exactly how the human race came about, how many millions or billions of years it took, or not believe that at all, and still operate quite well in "today's world." But what they believe about Jesus will fundamentally change their life, and it concerns me that people here and elsewhere are so willing to buy into anything labeled "science" so as to either dismiss or dissect the Bible.

543 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:29:48pm

In Pakistan Musharraf tried to decredit Madrassa education for a reason, it's also one of the reasons he's lost power. The theocrats control his country, just like they do Iran.

544 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:29:51pm

re: #535 reuben

This is an anti-idiotarian blog!

545 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:30:17pm

re: #538 Charles

Wow. They're coming out of the woodwork again tonight.

Yes.

Perhaps time for these:

[Link: www.3dmd.net...]

[Link: www.3dmd.net...]

546 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:30:33pm

re: #424 blue_like_jazz

so, then... what is a science education supposed to teach a student?

the scientific method?

critical thinking?

are those the important qualifiers?

or is swallowing evolution hook, line, and sinker the qualification you're looking for?

Learning about the actual empirical evidence, and what its logical consequences and ramifications are, is what any one who desires a credible science education should aspire to. And the logical consequences and ramifications of an overwhelmingly vast amount of empirical evidence over the last century and a half happen to be the soundness and validity of random mutation and nonrandom environmental selection, causing species divergence from common ancestors: that is, evolution.

547 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:30:43pm

re: #528 jimc

I have yet to see absolute scientific proof,


It's been linked to you numerous times but you refuse to knowledge it. Is this where you want to lead you religion? Is intentional ignorance the key to salvation?

548 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:31:01pm

re: #542 cslepage

What really bothers me is the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell.

There it is. Believe in evolution and you'll burn in Hell for eternity.

549 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:31:14pm

re: #542 cslepage

Yes- how dare people act with the free will God gave us!

550 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:31:28pm

re: #533 Charles

The Christian schools very deliberately chose fundamentalist textbooks that specifically elevated Biblical literalism over science, and called it science. The UC board said, "if you're going to teach that, we're not going to accredit these classes."

if they were still taught the basic scientific principles and could demonstrate the knowledge the UC system wanted them to know (easily quantifiable by AP tests and/or the ACT) they should have been admitted.

what you're saying is that anyone who isn't taught what the STATE wants them to know is justifiably discriminated against.

what's next? history? what if a christian school teaches that America is a covenant nation with christian roots and not an experiment started by greedy white men?

will you say it's okay to not admit those students if the STATE likes the greedy white men theory better?

551 Dan G.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:31:54pm

re: #542 cslepage

How much does it bother you? Enough to trash the 1st Ammendment to and Article VI of the U.S. Constitution?

552 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:32:20pm

re: #516 Thanos

And I'm against crediting ID taught students for science in public universities. I don't want a doctor operating on me nowadays who doesn't understand genetic expression, or who doubts that tests done on rats or monkeys are also sometimes relevant to humans.


When my daughter needed serious surgery, we got the best pediatric surgeon we could. We didn't even ask his religion.

553 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:32:33pm

re: #430 blue_like_jazz

did they learn kingdom, phylum, class?

anatomy?

mitosis vs. meiosis?

the punnett square and mendel?

Did they learn about Lenski's e. coli, transitional fossils, radiometric dating, or the significance of artifactual retroviral DNA? My guess is no.

554 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:32:42pm

re: #550 blue_like_jazz

what you're saying is that anyone who isn't taught what the STATE wants them to know is justifiably discriminated against.

Wrong. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

The problem is this, and you're refusing to acknowledge it:

The people who prepared this book have tried consistently to put the Word of God first and science second...If...at any point God’s Word is not put first, the authors apologize.

555 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:33:14pm

Full moon?

556 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:33:32pm

re: #542 cslepage

. . . and it concerns me that people here and elsewhere are so willing to buy into anything labeled "science" so as to either dismiss or dissect the Bible.

557 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:33:51pm

re: #535 reuben

re: #519 Catttt

As someone who's been there, done that as far as the intelligent design/creationism/evolution debate goes, I find it odd that a conservative, Christian-majority blog is so against Creationism. There's far more "twisting" of science to support evolution than there is to support creation. Not to mention twisting of logic. Not to mention blind, dogmatic faith. Ever tried arguing the point with an evolutionist? You'd know what I mean.

Give me three concrete examples. As if.

Funny, but I never see those from creationists posting in these threads.

I see lots of generalizations. I see wildly incorrect conclusions. I see, frankly, lack of the most basic concept of the scientific method. I see nothing concrete to prove wild accusations such as yours. I see creationists leap on the scienctific method, which is a process of trial and error, of testing and hypothesis, to "prove" that science is not "true." I see "don't pick on me" religious wankers using religion as a shield to mess with science then crying when science uses the sword of logic and hypothesis and testing and theorizing to fight back.

And also, I see zip in the way of ANY proof whatsoever of one drop of creationism's pronouncements.

558 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:33:53pm

re: #555 Killgore Trout

Full moon?

It's on Saturday.

559 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:34:34pm

re: #558 Sharmuta

The nuts are early then.

560 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:34:51pm

re: #550 blue_like_jazz
There are Christian schools that are teaching that democracy is bad, they don't like article VI of our constitution either. They teach that stoning is appropriate for several infractions, including striking a parent. You ok with them being accredited? I'm not.

561 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:35:09pm

re: #431 reine.de.tout


When I was growing up, I did not need the school to teach me to learn to behave properly. My parents taught me that, through their parenting.

As it should be. Seems to me that many desire a Nanny State without even realizing it. How very sad.

562 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:35:43pm

The Age of Reason has ended. Enlightenment is dead. All aboard for the 11th century!

563 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:36:04pm

re: #542 cslepage

. . . and it concerns me that people here and elsewhere are so willing to buy into anything labeled "science" so as to either dismiss or dissect the Bible.

Belief in science is perfectly compatible with belief in God and belief in the Bible. There is no reason these two things are not compatible.

I happen to believe that God gave us brains and superior intelligence for the purpose of using them to figure out this wonderfully complex world we live in. And when we refuse to use our intelligence in the way He intended, then that is a sin against Him.

564 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:36:30pm

re: #555 Killgore Trout

Full moon?

Waxing gibbous moon, currently 93 percent of full, as a matter of fact.

565 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:36:50pm

re: #433 wolfie

You do realize that you have a biased view of history? Very biased. And backward. All that genuflecting before the holy Constitution, which, as anyone can tell you, is a piece of crap written to crush women and minorities.

You want to send your kids to a school that teaches your backward ideas? Fine. But forget going into the UC system later.

Where does this stop?
When no one can escape the arm of the state.

You cannot defend the idea that religious dogma should be forced to be accepted as adequate science education by university academic standards by profferring the slippery slope argument, any more than people can point to mad cow disease as a reason to ban all beef consumption.

566 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:37:06pm

re: #564 Catttt

Waxing gibbous


Is that a monkey joke?
/

567 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:37:07pm

re: #561 Slumbering Behemoth

As it should be. Seems to me that many desire a Nanny State without even realizing it. How very sad.

That's exactly right. And don't forget that creationists are not satisfied with teaching their own children this stuff. Their own children will already be fully indoctrinated.

They want to force this on everyone else's children.

568 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:37:11pm

re: #548 Charles

There it is. Believe in evolution and you'll burn in Hell for eternity.

I did not say that. If I had, it would show an absolute misunderstanding of why anyone will go to Hell.

569 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:37:32pm

re: #542 cslepage

What really bothers me is the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell.

Will you accept the notion that I believe I will become earthworm food when I die? It's just as valid as your notion.

Your notion about the afterlife doesn't bother me at all.....

570 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:38:07pm

I forgot my pics.. back in a bit....

571 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:38:28pm

re: #542 cslepage

Wow- I have to say something else to this comment. It really bothers me that someone could decry the lack of group think. Your comment is particularly disturbing when I think about the fact that this blog is also pro-Israel. Does it bother you that there are Jews still in the world? I say this as a Christian- you give other believers a bad name, and frankly- your comment disgusts me.

572 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:38:40pm

re: #566 Killgore Trout

Is that a monkey joke?
/

No. I have nothing but respect for gibbous monkeys. :D

573 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:38:45pm

re: #549 Sharmuta

Yes- how dare people act with the free will God gave us!

It's fascinating that a statement of belief and concern is interpreted as a desire to force others to agree with me.

574 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:39:05pm

re: #523 Zoomie

I am very concerned about it, too. Very concerned.

I don't know the answers. I don't even know all the questions.
I just think the blase or even jubilant reaction lizards are having to this case is a bit.........I dunno.......thoughtless.

575 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:39:17pm

re: #567 Charles

That's exactly right. And don't forget that creationists are not satisfied with teaching their own children this stuff. Their own children will already be fully indoctrinated.

They want to force this on everyone else's children.

Taught by a public school teacher, with who knows what sort of personal beliefs, and probably absolutely no credentials in theology whatsoever.

576 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:39:29pm

re: #437 cslepage

And yet, here I am, a believer in the creation of the universe and mankind as described in the King James Bible, somehow operating quite well in "today's world." Of course, when my time comes, I'll gladly leave "today's world" for a better one.

But are you employed in biology, botany, paleontology or genetics?

Here's a question for all the rational thinking scholars here: is there anything Jesus said or did in the Bible, anything He quoted from the Old Testament, anything he clearly stated a belief in, that by the standards of "today's world" is clearly irrational? Anything that contradicts all our fine scientific "facts"?

Howzabout the Genesis ideas that the universe was made in 6 days 6000 years ago, and that all the species were created independently and as is?

577 Dan G.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:39:46pm

re: #555 Killgore Trout

More than likely some ID-bot noticed that Charles posted to the ass-wooping IDer's just received in CA and their here to whip up some sympathy... Notice the tone of the posts, attempting first to seek common ground.

578 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:40:29pm

re: #571 Sharmuta

Wow- I have to say something else to this comment. It really bothers me that someone could decry the lack of group think. Your comment is particularly disturbing when I think about the fact that this blog is also pro-Israel. Does it bother you that there are Jews still in the world? I say this as a Christian- you give other believers a bad name, and frankly- your comment disgusts me.

I say this as a Christian. As a Christian I cannot help but be "pro Israel." To be alive at a point in history when the nation of Israel exists again is a gift from God I will always be thankful for.

579 Dan G.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:40:57pm

re: #573 cslepage

Why the threat of hell then?

580 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:41:17pm

re: #554 Charles

i'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. the premise of the text supposes that the Bible is the foundation of knowledge.

what are YOU not understanding about the posts i've put on here tonight?

IF THE STUDENTS HAVE DEMONSTRATED REASONABLE PROFICIENCY IN SCIENCE THEY SHOULD BE ADMITTED.

581 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:41:21pm

The Sacred Cow Blues
I got
The Sacred Cow Blues.
Oh yeah.
The
Sacred
Ceeeowwwww
Bleuuuuuues.

582 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:41:59pm

re: #495 jimc

It's true, we have not been able re-create the conditions necessary to generate life in a lab at so far. But, if at some point in the future we are able to do so, how would you feel about it?

583 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:42:26pm

re: #569 Mr Pancakes

Will you accept the notion that I believe I will become earthworm food when I die? It's just as valid as your notion.

Your notion about the afterlife doesn't bother me at all.....

Yes, I accept the notion that you believe differently than I do.

584 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:42:30pm

re: #578 cslepage

I say this as a Christian. As a Christian I cannot help but be "pro Israel." To be alive at a point in history when the nation of Israel exists again is a gift from God I will always be thankful for.

And why is that? Because the existence of Israel means that we're in the "End of Days?"

585 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:43:33pm

re: #579 Dan G.

Why the threat of hell then?

I can't threaten anyone with Hell.

586 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:44:21pm

re: #584 Charles

And why is that? Because the existence of Israel means that we're in the "End of Days?"

We've been in the "end of days", as you call it, since Jesus rose from the dead and left this planet.

587 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:44:41pm

re: #584 Charles

And why is that? Because the existence of Israel means that we're in the "End of Days?"


how about because the restoration of Israel was promised in Scripture and to see it come true shows God's faithfulness to His chosen people?

588 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:44:50pm

re: #585 cslepage

I can't threaten anyone with Hell.

That's true, you can't. You can just smugly assert that people who don't believe as you do will burn for eternity. No threat there.

589 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:45:29pm

re: #586 cslepage

We've been in the "end of days", as you call it, since Jesus rose from the dead and left this planet.

Why don't you answer my direct question with a direct answer?

590 Dan G.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:45:36pm

re: #585 cslepage

Ok, so you reply to that post, but what about my previous post to you? What is your opinion of the Constitution's prohibition of the establishment of a religion and its prohibition of a religious test for those who would hold public office?

591 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:45:38pm

re: #586 cslepage

Israel is not you personal doomsday machine, asshole. It's a country that people live in.

592 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:47:16pm

re: #580 blue_like_jazz

i'm not refusing to acknowledge anything. the premise of the text supposes that the Bible is the foundation of knowledge.

what are YOU not understanding about the posts i've put on here tonight?

IF THE STUDENTS HAVE DEMONSTRATED REASONABLE PROFICIENCY IN SCIENCE THEY SHOULD BE ADMITTED.

Based on the article I read, the students did not demonstrate proficiency. Their classes were judged by the uni as not suitable college prep classes. They could prove proficiency by taking the Scholastic Assessment Test. They did not do so.

593 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:47:32pm

re: #573 cslepage

These are your words:

No. What really bothers me is, men and women in "today's world" will continue to ignore or deny the truth of the Bible. They will continue to ignore or deny the sacrifice Jesus made to pay the price for our sins. For that matter, as long as we insist we are all just stumbling down a path ruled by evolution, speciation, and so on, then we are just animals, and things like morals, right and wrong, are temporary concerns.

What really bothers me is the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell. Someone can believe in global warming or not and not have their life fundamentally affected. Someone could convince themselves they understand exactly how the human race came about, how many millions or billions of years it took, or not believe that at all, and still operate quite well in "today's world." But what they believe about Jesus will fundamentally change their life, and it concerns me that people here and elsewhere are so willing to buy into anything labeled "science" so as to either dismiss or dissect the Bible.

So- does it bother you that God gave us free will? Because you clearly stated it bothers you that other don't believe as you do. It's also a fallacy that anyone who accepts science is doing so to dismiss the Bible.

594 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:48:47pm

re: #593 Sharmuta

I still have yet to hear a good reason why Gandhi and Eisenstein are burning in hell.

595 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:48:47pm

re: #588 Charles

That's true, you can't. You can just smugly assert that people who don't believe as you do will burn for eternity. No threat there.

I could do that, but I didn't.

596 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:49:26pm

re: #445 jimc

re: #427 Charles

Charles: A science education is NOT supposed to teach a student that if the Bible conflicts with science, they should believe the Bible. That's explicitly what was being taught here.

jimc: You assume too much, that evolution is true science.

faith
Noun
1. strong belief in something, esp. without proof

My computer science logic tells me that since evolution cannot be proved, it is therefore a faith based initiative, tapping true sciences to conjure up this religion of evolution. Therefore, neither ID nor Evolution should be taught.

But there is so much evidence for evolution via random mutation and nonrandom environmental selection, and so much evidence for species divergence from common ancestors, that only those who close their eyes and ears could fail to acknowledge it. People such as yourself.

Religions exist in the absence of empirical evidence; scientific theories exist in its presence. And the empirical evidence for evolution is vast, massive and overwhelming.

Empirical science operates via induction, not deduction. It never claims absolute proof, in principle, for that would foreclose any possibility of future data changing a theory. But the statistical probability of evolutionary species divergence is, mathematically speaking, practically indistinguishable from apodictic certainty. Only the irretrievably dense and obtuse could fail to acknowledge what it logically entails once presented with it (and much of it has been presented at LGF). And only the willfully ignorant could continue to avert their eyes from its existence.

597 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:50:02pm

re: #565 Salamantis

You cannot defend the idea that religious dogma should be forced to be accepted as adequate science education by university academic standards by profferring the slippery slope argument, any more than people can point to mad cow disease as a reason to ban all beef consumption.


I did not defend that idea.

I am concerned about the whole issue of religious freedom.
I am particularly concerned about the kind of "standards" that are being applied in HISTORY and ENGLISH classes.

I am sorry if I am not reflexively enthusiastic about the state's victory in this case.

I sense a serious danger here and I am expressing concern about it.

598 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:51:09pm

re: #433 wolfie

You do realize that you have a biased view of history? Very biased. And backward. All that genuflecting before the holy Constitution, which, as anyone can tell you, is a piece of crap written to crush women and minorities.

Most of the "crap" you assert here has been long ago corrected. The U.S. Constitution is no holy document, but neither is it a piece of crap. It is a contract; a contract that gives you the right to worship as you wish, but not the right for you or anyone else to impose worship on others as you or they might wish. And that is just one tiny little part of that Bad Ass Contract.

I take offense (yes, I take it, I own it, I choose it) to your characterization of the one and only foundational document that defines this great nation. Over the last two centuries, many people have fought and died for preservation of the principles contained therein.

If you know of a better country, founded on better principles, then I invite you to emigrate, post haste.

You want to send your kids to a school that teaches your backward ideas? Fine. But forget going into the UC system later.

Where does this stop?
When no one can escape the arm of the state.

That sounds way off the mark, and a bit paranoid. Perhaps you've exceeded the boundaries of the Iron Fist Rule?

599 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:51:25pm

re: #590 Dan G.

Ok, so you reply to that post, but what about my previous post to you? What is your opinion of the Constitution's prohibition of the establishment of a religion and its prohibition of a religious test for those who would hold public office?

I believe we should eliminate tax breaks to all religious and other non profit organizations. I think the current state of the State declaring a group a church and thus giving them tangible benefits gives the State too much power over and connection to religious organizations.

600 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:51:26pm

re: #597 wolfie

I sense a bigger danger from Chalcedon and Discovery Institute and Gary North.

601 JamesWI  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:51:38pm

re: #595 cslepage

I could do that, but I didn't.

Again, as others have pointed out, your words:

"What really bothers me is the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell. "

You could do that, and you did.

602 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:52:00pm

re: #592 Catttt

they did not take the test

or

they couldn't show proficiency after having taken the test?

603 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:52:29pm

cslepage: are you a Dominionist?

604 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:52:31pm

re: #449 blue_like_jazz

my point is this:

even if the Bible is put first, if those kids graduated with enough scientific knowledge, it shouldn't matter.

they are coming from a specific worldview, yes...

HOWEVER

if the student demonstrates basic proficiency in the subject they shouldn't be blocked from admission.

so, all things being equal, are you telling me you'd rather fund an illiterate's education at university rather than a child who had been taught from a creationist perspective?

Children that have been taught evolutionary theory from a creationist perspective are the very DEFINITION of scientifically illiterate, because they have been taught not science, but anti-science.

605 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:52:43pm

re: #595 cslepage

I could do that, but I didn't.

Excuse me, but I'm going to believe my own eyes, because you did say that. Don't go weaselly and pretend you didn't - like a certain President Bill "that means on what your definition of is is" Clinton.

606 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:54:01pm

re: #598 Slumbering Behemoth


re: "piece of crap"
it's called SARCASM. she is mocking the PC view of the Constitution.

607 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:54:07pm

re: #450 mobaby

They will just have to go to other universities. No big loss, for the students.
They should test the students and see where they stand against their counterparts in the public schools.
Make no mistake - this is about more than science - it's about shutting down any competition to both the public school system and societal group think.

No, it's about making sure that people with science credits in their high school transcripts have actually been taught science in those courses rather than religion.

608 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:54:12pm
609 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:54:14pm

re: #583 cslepage

Yes, I accept the notion that you believe differently than I do.

I appreciate that....... deep down in your soul now...... don't you hope I find the real truth someday, and if don't...... burn in hell?

Side note..... I was raised a Christian.

610 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:54:16pm

re: #595 cslepage

I could do that, but I didn't.

But you did.
See: re: #593 Sharmuta

Your belief that people will go to hell if they accept evolution is in this jumbled up paragraph:

What really bothers me is the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell. Someone can believe in global warming or not and not have their life fundamentally affected. Someone could convince themselves they understand exactly how the human race came about, how many millions or billions of years it took, or not believe that at all, and still operate quite well in "today's world." But what they believe about Jesus will fundamentally change their life, and it concerns me that people here and elsewhere are so willing to buy into anything labeled "science" so as to either dismiss or dissect the Bible.

Your final sentence seems to say that if a person believes in evolution, then they have "dismissed" the Bible. That is not true.

And your first sentence seems to be saying that if a person "dismisses" the Bible through their belief in evolution, then they have not accepted "the gift of salvation", and will spend eternity in hell.

611 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:54:41pm

re: #593 Sharmuta

These are your words:

So- does it bother you that God gave us free will? Because you clearly stated it bothers you that other don't believe as you do. It's also a fallacy that anyone who accepts science is doing so to dismiss the Bible.

Why would saying the choice some people have made bothers me mean I wish they never had the ability to make the choice?

I never said that absolutely anyone, or everyone, who accepts science is doing so to dismiss the Bible. Many do, however.

612 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:54:42pm

re: #602 blue_like_jazz

they did not take the test

or

they couldn't show proficiency after having taken the test?

The article said only that the students were free to do so, and therefore you are correct. It could be the latter. If anyone knows, I'd be interested. The thing is, test results are private, and if they took the tests and failed, I'm sure they would not want that to be public.

613 kuffar[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:54:59pm
614 Dan G.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:55:09pm

re: #599 cslepage

Dodge Score: 02

That wasn't my question. My question was very clear and precise. Why do you dodge it?

615 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:55:49pm

re: #612 Catttt

The article said only that the students were free to do so, and therefore you are correct. It could be the latter. If anyone knows, I'd be interested. The thing is, test results are private, and if they took the tests and failed, I'm sure they would not want that to be public.

but that makes a difference, don't you think?

616 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:56:17pm

re: #613 kuffar

Ew, religion debate.

Hey, I tried to change it to Finnish goth metal.

617 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:57:08pm

re: #443 David IV of Georgia


If a university accepts substandard students, it is remotely possible for a university to find its own accreditation in jeopardy. No school is obliged to accept academic records that it feels is substandard. Most will let their decisions be challenged, but don't be surprised to find they stand by their decision.

Exactly. To bring it to simpler terms, if I was an employer who hired substandard workers or used substandard materials, would I not lose credibility with my customers?

618 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:57:21pm

re: #611 cslepage

Why would saying the choice some people have made bothers me mean I wish they never had the ability to make the choice?

Because you said you were bothered by the notion. You know- words mean things.

619 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:58:01pm

re: #603 Charles

cslepage: are you a Dominionist?

No, I do not "seek influence or control over secular civil government through political action — aiming either at a nation governed by Christians or a nation governed by a conservative Christian understanding of biblical law."

I believe I should participate as a citizen of the United States. I should pay taxes. I should vote. But it would be a waste of energy and time to try to turn this country, or any country, into a conservative Christian theocracy.

620 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:58:09pm

Wolfie, are you a dominionist? I see you upthread spitting on the constitution. That sure does take away from any conservative credentials you might profess to have.

621 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:59:00pm

re: #619 cslepage

Are you a Christian Reconstructionist?

622 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:59:19pm

re: #615 blue_like_jazz

but that makes a difference, don't you think?

Well, the result is the same. If they refused to take the test, then their lack of proficiency is based on the curriculum being judged wanting by the uni. However, the fact that they can prove proficiency by taking the test takes the bite out of that. Lots of people take proficiency tests every day. I took the damn thing when I was in high school.

623 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 9:59:24pm

re: #460 jimc

Evidence and testability? where? Show me....and not some half-baked genetic variation within the same species, show me evidence of the testability of speciation.

[Link: myxo.css.msu.edu...]

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

624 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:00:07pm

re: #603 Charles

cslepage: are you a Dominionist?

I was raised Non-Denominational and we had the same views.

625 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:00:41pm

re: #618 Sharmuta

Because you said you were bothered by the notion. You know- words mean things.

Yes they do. But again, very simply, saying the choice some people have made bothers me does not mean I wish they never had the ability to make the choice. If I had said the latter, then yes, you could say I said it. Otherwise, what I said means no more and no less than what I said.

626 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:00:41pm

re: #608 FurryOldGuyJeans

OT - Whoa!

Chef Julia Child among 24,000 spies during World War II

I saw that. Go Julia! Cool. I loved her show, and I don't cook.

627 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:00:53pm

re: #620 Thanos

I think wolfie did a poor job on that comment trying to express someone else's views of the Constitution. Though I think she's over reaching in her analysis of current civics education.

628 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:01:05pm

re: #621 Thanos

Are you a Christian Reconstructionist?

No.

629 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:01:26pm

it's 1 am... bed beckons.

630 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:03:05pm

re: #470 cslepage

So, by stating a belief in an event that science today tells us never happened, doesn't that invalidate everything else He said? If we can't trust Jesus to get his historical facts correct, how can we believe anything else that came out of His mouth?

If that's your definition for either forsaking empirical science or dogmatic religion, then so much the worse for dogmatic religion. Empirical science is supported by evidence; dogmatic religion is not. Dogmatic religion would be well advised to stay out of empirical science's evidentiary playground; it will not fare well there.

631 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:03:12pm

re: #609 Mr Pancakes

I appreciate that....... deep down in your soul now...... don't you hope I find the real truth someday, and if don't...... burn in hell?

Side note..... I was raised a Christian.

I do not hope that you burn in Hell someday. I hope otherwise.

632 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:03:17pm

re: #598 Slumbering Behemoth

The views I expressed there about the Constitution being crap and a white supremacist instrument for the oppression of minorities are not my own. They are the views of Gary Nash, the guy who decides what history curricula the UC system will accept as "correct."


I am concerned that the state will slowly but surely take away our right to teach American history, to teach the Constitution and founding documents in any way other than the way the STATE deems proper.
I am concerned that a private school trying to teach a pro-American view might be deemed "backward" or "substandard" because it's curriculum does not adhere to the standards set by someone like Gary Nash, who has been working for over 20 years to impose his views on school curricula.

633 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:04:12pm

re: #632 wolfie

They are the views of Gary Nash, the guy who decides what history curricula the UC system will accept as "correct."

Proof? Link? Or are we just supposed to take your word for that?

634 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:04:31pm

re: #625 cslepage

Yeah- you're just bothered by the "notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell". You can try to weasel out of what you said or you can own it.

635 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:04:33pm

re: #445 jimc

My computer science logic tells me...

These kind of trolls always crack me up.

Question, jimc: If the only thing you got from commenting here were down dings, would you still comment here?

636 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:05:21pm

I have to go to bed - gotta get up early - plus my Siamese cat just threw up.

Sigh.

Night.

637 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:05:36pm

And where does Gary Nash figure into ANY of this, by the way? His name is not even mentioned in any of the reports I've seen.

638 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:05:45pm

re: #631 cslepage

I do not hope that you burn in Hell someday. I hope otherwise.

IE: That I come to my senses or else....... got it.

639 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:05:59pm

re: #478 cslepage

Humans have genetic similarities with chimpanzees and gorillas, suggesting common ancestors.

Neither assumption is likely accurate.

You obviously do not grasp the significance of artifactual retroviral DNA.

[Link: www.newyorker.com...]

Excerpt:

“If Charles Darwin reappeared today, he might be surprised to learn that humans are descended from viruses as well as from apes,” Weiss wrote.

Darwin’s surprise almost certainly would be mixed with delight: when he suggested, in “The Descent of Man” (1871), that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, it was a revolutionary idea, and it remains one today. Yet nothing provides more convincing evidence for the “theory” of evolution than the viruses contained within our DNA. Until recently, the earliest available information about the history and the course of human diseases, like smallpox and typhus, came from mummies no more than four thousand years old. Evolution cannot be measured in a time span that short. Endogenous retroviruses provide a trail of molecular bread crumbs leading millions of years into the past.

Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

Molecular biology has made precise knowledge about the nature of that inheritance possible. With extensive databases of genetic sequences, reconstructing ancestral genomes has become common, and retroviruses have been found in the genome of every vertebrate species that has been studied. Anthropologists and biologists have used them to investigate not only the lineage of primates but the relationships among animals—dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, for example—and also to test whether similar organisms may in fact be unrelated.

640 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:06:16pm

re: #634 Sharmuta

Yeah- you're just bothered by the "notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell". You can try to weasel out of what you said or you can own it.

Since I did say that, I will gladly own it. I will not own that which I did not say. And I didn't say that free will was a bad idea just because mankind continues to abuse it.

641 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:06:44pm

re: #632 wolfie

And creationists have been working longer than that with more funds. It wasn't legal to teach evolutionary biology until 1968. With that anti-science precedent I find that creationism is much more dangerous to science in the US than whosit.

642 Captain Faris  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:06:53pm

Hysterical. Not that anyone seems to mind...

I'm on probation because I hinted that Charles is "emotional" on the topic of anti-Darwinism. So, all seriously angry readers who loathe Believers should ignore my two cents and stop reading.

I "represent" most Believers in America who are anti-Darwinian in the sense that I run in their crowd and discuss all these related issues with them and I teach a "party line" and commonly held point of view among them.

None of the straw-man ad hominem descriptions that this flame-thread attributes to Believers actually apply to them as people. They are more "scientific method centric" than average; they score higher on science tests than average; they never eschew investigation of unknown mysteries; etc.

It is true that Believers "debating" with the educational establishment and governments about the teaching of Evolution use naive and far-fetched words and arguments as they attempt to fight what they see as a detrimental curriculum being imposed on students in the sciences to match the detrimental curriculum being imposed on students in the humanities. The words the ID proponents use and their usually simplistic arguments do not have in impact of the professional lives of Believers working in Industry and Professions. These Believers root for the ID arguers the way they root for their college team--they want the infidels to lose! Cis boom bah!

Game over, now back to work in reality.

But I don't really think it is the childish and unsophisticated arguments ID proponents or anti-Darwinians use that really makes everyone so angry. I think it is the fact that WE don't agree with the Darwinist party-line that angers them. Just like Charles is so sad that anyone could think the Russians aren't as bad as Saakeshvili claims every 10 minutes or so.

Humans really want to FORCE others to agree with them and they get angry when they can't "win". Then they pout; then they malign; then they mock...

It is human nature.

By the way, Charles, the sentence in the textbook that made you laugh about G_D designing genetics so that out-of-bounds DNA was fatal; that sentence was written that way as a joke because a Darwinist textbook published earlier had said that NATURE designed genetics in such a way as to be fatal when the mutations were too extreme. The author--otherwise not too good a writer or thinker--was tweaking the Darwinists noses.

By the way, for my part I have reviewed lots of textbooks in lots of subjects. As far as I'm concerned the only thing you can do with the authors of textbooks is take them out and shoot them. Textbooks are the number one waste of paper on the planet earth. The only thing good about them is that most students in public schools don't really learn anything and so the damage is limited.

Do you know what kind of education Believers advocate? It's called Classical Education and it promotes the use of what are called Authentic Sources instead of textbooks. That is, "real" books written for purposes other than to be taught in a classroom; books written with no institutional agenda or pandering to political winds. (That excludes most coffee table science or history tomes, as well; i.e. the mass market DI publications don't make the cut either.)

But, if it makes anyone feel better and anyone is actually reading this entire blurb, we Believers totally agree with you Darwinists about one thing: we believe that the rigorous use of the scientific method and the relentless investigation of mysteries are high callings and practitioners are worthy of the highest honors. What, you make ask, is my authority for making this assertion? Because I said so!

643 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:07:28pm

re: #637 Charles

And where does Gary Nash figure into ANY of this, by the way? His name is not even mentioned in any of the reports I've seen.

It's probably cut n' paste from a worldnet rant.

644 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:08:37pm

re: #640 cslepage

You didn't state it outright, it's implied. If you're bothered by "the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell" you are implying that there is a problem with free will.

645 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:08:43pm

re: #638 Mr Pancakes

IE: That I come to my senses or else....... got it.

No, you are not getting it. I have no idea the condition of your soul, or where you are going to be after you die. But given my understanding of Hell, I can't help but hope you, me, or anyone does not go there.

646 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:09:02pm

And now the pro-Russian creationist turns up.

647 Dan G.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:09:26pm

The martyrs are being primed somewhere...

648 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:09:50pm

re: #489 jimc

I've read plenty and the piling up of pro-evolutionist commentary and anti-creationist (and by extension Bible literalists) has spurred me to get into the fray here. I enjoy LGF when it is going after the Islamic extremists and moonbats, this anti-creationist trend is motivating. That and I've been busy writing thousands upon thousands of lines of code in the last few years has kept me quite busy....

Well, the empirical evidence is not on your side. And hasn't been for a century and a half. Not even the Roman Catholic Church disputes evolutionary theory any more, or claims that Genesis is anything other than parable and metaphor.

649 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:10:18pm

re: #632 wolfie

I am a lot more concerned of our rights being taken away with uncanny haste as the DI and their Jihadi allies would like to achieve. In the name of "Balance", of course.

650 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:11:14pm

re: #644 Sharmuta

You didn't state it outright, it's implied. If you're bothered by "the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell" you are implying that there is a problem with free will.

If I kill someone with a fork, the problem is not with the fork, which is a perfectly useful utensil. The problem is with how I used it.

I'm not implying there is a problem with free will. There is a problem, however, with how we often use it. Fortunately, there is a solution.

651 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:11:15pm

re: #642 Captain Faris

Say "hi" to your friends with Harun Yayah!

652 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:11:29pm

re: #277 Occasional Reader

We're in complete agreement on each item (except I've never tried sturgeon).

Sturgeon is very tasty, and no bones to plague you; their skeleton is composed of cartilage. Becoming very hard to get, as their rate of reproduction is very slow. (despite the fact that "a virgin sturgeon needs no urgin' ")

653 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:12:02pm

re: #646 Charles

And now the pro-Russian creationist turns up.

I sure wish there was an ignore function available for some people.

654 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:12:06pm

Check out "Captain Faris's" bogus review of Ken Miller's "Only a Theory:"

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

655 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:12:36pm

re: #645 cslepage

No, you are not getting it. I have no idea the condition of your soul, or where you are going to be after you die. But given my understanding of Hell, I can't help but hope you, me, or anyone does not go there.

Oh...... I'm sorry I was just going by this statement of yours........ maybe I misunderstood since I'm not a believer.

"What really bothers me is the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell."

656 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:13:10pm

re: #650 cslepage

I'm not implying there is a problem with free will. There is a problem, however, with how we often use it.

Umm- hello! We have free will. We can use it however we want- but only in the correct way?! And yet you're trying to tell me you have no problem with free will. I don't believe you.

657 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:13:23pm

re: #642 Captain Faris

That's a lot of strawmen to toss in the air at one time Faris, it's like you shot your wad in first post, premature emarxification.

658 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:13:34pm

re: #600 Thanos

I sense a bigger danger from Chalcedon and Discovery Institute and Gary North.

I do not. The whole educational establishment, the courts, and the MSM are arrayed against them.

The powers that be are nearly all on the side of the left. And they are progressive, which means they never stop!

As far as your concerns about Reconstructionism, it represents the viewpoint of a very small minority, a viewpoint heavily opposed by an array of Baptoids, Pentecostalists, and snake-handlers, not to mention the Papists.

659 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:13:44pm

re: #655 Mr Pancakes

Oh...... I'm sorry I was just going by this statement of yours........ maybe I misunderstood since I'm not a believer.

That's a real possibility.

660 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:13:49pm

re: #495 jimc

Speciation observed in the fossil record is a joke. Bones looking like another proves nothing. I'd like you to send me a link to the "observed in nature and in the laboratory" part.

Bones possessing similar shapes proves a lot, especially when the similarities can be shown to gradually directionally change when the bones are compared chronologically.

And I have already posted a link to Lenski's e. coli laboratory, and someone else has posted a link to the Galapagos finches.

661 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:14:34pm

Papists?

Wow.

662 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:14:45pm

re: #650 cslepage

I'm not implying there is a problem with free will. There is a problem, however, with how we often use it. Fortunately, there is a solution.

And I exercise that solution every time I use my free will to do what I deem right and moral.

663 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:15:40pm

re: #661 Charles

Papists?

Wow.

That's what I said. We know this one's phyloreligious tree now.

664 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:16:19pm

re: #656 Sharmuta

Umm- hello! We have free will. We can use it however we want- but only in the correct way?! And yet you're trying to tell me you have no problem with free will. I don't believe you.

I never said you could only use free will in "the correct way." Clearly, by your rewriting of what I have said, it's possible to make poor decisions.

665 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:16:26pm

re: #497 jimc

I have no jihadi in my bed....

Maybe not, but some of your fellow travelers at the Disco Institute and the ICR have been sharing towel-wrapped hot water bottles and playing undercover toasty footsies with Islamocreationists with some frequency. As has been documented on LGF, by Charles.

666 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:16:57pm

re: #664 cslepage

I never said you could only use free will in "the correct way." Clearly, by your rewriting of what I have said, it's possible to make poor decisions.

And then ... burn in Hell!

667 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:17:04pm

re: #662 FurryOldGuyJeans

And I exercise that solution every time I use my free will to do what I deem right and moral.

How do you decide what is the right and moral thing to do?

668 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:18:03pm

re: #666 Charles

And then ... burn in Hell!

Lake of Fire for two!

Not an eatery I would want to patronize, I must say.

669 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:18:51pm

Well it's late here, I"ve got to hit the sack.

Charles: we really need those flags methinks.

670 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:19:18pm

re: #667 cslepage

How do you decide what is the right and moral thing to do?

And you think you have the monopoly of what is right and moral, eh?

671 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:19:18pm

re: #450 mobaby

Make no mistake - this is about more than science - it's about shutting down any competition to both the public school system and societal group think.

Yeah, that ever present and all powerful, atheistic :cough: code for satanism :cough:, darwanist hegemony that persecutes those who don't goosestep right along with societal group think.

/troofers to the LEFT of me, troofers to the RIGHT, here I am...

672 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:19:24pm

re: #503 jimc

Unless business apps evolve into "antibiotics software", you're in no danger...

Good; considering your anti-science biases and misconceptions, I'm surpassingly glad that you're far enough from empirical science applications not to be able to touch them with even a ten foot code pole.

673 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:19:32pm

re: #659 cslepage

That's a real possibility.

Stripped out your quote..... Nice backpedal!

674 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:19:45pm

re: #666 Charles

And then ... burn in Hell!

666 -- you did it again. They surely think you are the antichrist now.

675 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:20:21pm

re: #620 Thanos

Wolfie, are you a dominionist? I see you upthread spitting on the constitution. That sure does take away from any conservative credentials you might profess to have.

Oh, good grief.
I have been posting here for some time. If I hated the Constitution, would I be hanging around here this long?!

I was not expressing my own views. I was expressing the views of Gary Nash, the chief arbiter of history standards for the UC admissions system. He's a regualr Ward Churchill and thinks natural science is a Eurocentric plot to destroy minorities. You know the spiel.

Your obsession with Dominionism is getting away with you, Thanos.
If you hear someone trashing our history and founding documents, the chances are 1000 to 1 it will be a multi-cult leftist, not a Dominionist.

676 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:20:27pm

re: #674 Thanos

666 -- you did it again. They surely think you are the antichrist now.

You mean they didn't already? I guess I haven't been trying hard enough.

677 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:20:34pm

re: #666 Charles

And then ... burn in Hell!

It's hard to believe anyone would seriously think you are "emotional" on the topic of anti-Darwinism.

678 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:21:04pm

re: #675 wolfie

I was not expressing my own views. I was expressing the views of Gary Nash, the chief arbiter of history standards for the UC admissions system. He's a regualr Ward Churchill and thinks natural science is a Eurocentric plot to destroy minorities. You know the spiel.

I've already asked you for a link to prove this statement, and you ignored it.

679 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:21:18pm

re: #664 cslepage

These are your words:

I'm not implying there is a problem with free will. There is a problem, however, with how we often use it.

What you are saying here is you find the use of free will to be, at times, problematic. I didn't rewrite what you wrote, BTW. I interpreted it.

680 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:21:28pm

re: #670 FurryOldGuyJeans

And you think you have the monopoly of what is right and moral, eh?

No, I do not. I did not say that.

How do you decide what is the right and moral thing to do?

681 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:22:37pm

re: #677 cslepage

It's hard to believe anyone would seriously think you are "emotional" on the topic of anti-Darwinism.

Eeeeee boy

682 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:23:14pm

re: #675 wolfie

Your obsession with anti-science is getting away with you.

Sorry someone snipped a comment of yours, it appeared that you were saying that. You did not spit on the constitution.

683 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:23:21pm

re: #622 Catttt

If they can qualify through reasonably fair testing, in spite of not having their courses credited, that makes me feel much better about all this.

684 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:23:24pm

re: #666 Charles

And then ... burn in Hell!

Lake of Fire!

685 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:24:35pm

re: #680 cslepage

No, I do not. I did not say that.

How do you decide what is the right and moral thing to do?

By listening to the Robot Overlords, same as you should.

686 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:25:29pm

re: #685 FurryOldGuyJeans

By listening to the Robot Overlords, same as you should.

Just don't trust the shover bot.

687 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:25:51pm

re: #685 FurryOldGuyJeans

By listening to the Robot Overlords, same as you should.

I was really hoping you'd seriously answer my question instead of evading it. Oh well.

Goodnight, all.

688 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:26:27pm

re: #523 Zoomie

Blue agree with you. Hundreds of thousands of kiddos have graduated from Christian high schools - with similar curriculum, and are now doctors, lawyers, scientists, etc.

LGFers need a little more concern about our wonderful, all knowing, government possibly crossing a line and imposing philosophy and a state-approved worldview on the church, in the name of science.

I recall my Ukrainian friend who's daughter got kicked out of the state school because of her unscientific beliefs. She was able to travel into another province in Russia and get readmitted into nursing school. She had to go to a location where they knew she was not from a family of 'believers'. Nope, I am not saying the UC system is persecuting or are commies, etc. I am surprised at the delight expressed in seeing the government, by implication, crack down on private schools.

So now defending themselves against accepting high school credits that could deservedly threaten their academic accreditation within the university system is being warped and twisted into an attack on private schools?

689 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:27:17pm

re: #627 Sharmuta

I think wolfie did a poor job on that comment trying to express someone else's views of the Constitution. Though I think she's over reaching in her analysis of current civics education.

I pretty sure wolfie did a poor job, too, because lots of people have smacked me for it! Sorry.

I was expressing the views of Gary Nash, the point man for judging history curricula in California. I was under-reaching. The man has a long track record of extreme anti-Americanism and hatred of "white" science and "racist" education.

690 Dan G.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:27:22pm

re: #687 cslepage

HA. Pot.Kettle.Black

691 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:28:37pm

re: #688 Salamantis

So now defending themselves against accepting high school credits that could deservedly threaten their academic accreditation within the university system is being warped and twisted into an attack on private schools?

It's worse than that. The WorldNetDaily article shows you the propaganda angle that's being fed to fundamentalists -- it's being portrayed as a "persecution" of Christians.

692 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:28:52pm

re: #658 wolfie

As far as your concerns about Reconstructionism, it represents the viewpoint of a very small minority, a viewpoint heavily opposed by an array of Baptoids, Pentecostalists, and snake-handlers, not to mention the Papists

Are you sure you aren't a moby just here to insult various denominations of Christianity btw?

Baptoids? Snake Handlers? Papists? That's not neither kind nor Christian.

693 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:29:04pm

re: #687 cslepage

You've been evasive here all night, so why the hell can't anyone else?

/oops- did I say hell?

694 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:29:22pm

re: #687 cslepage

I was really hoping you'd seriously answer my question instead of evading it. Oh well.

Goodnight, all.

Yep...... that was easy..... niterz.

Oh the overlords, got me workin' overtime
Oh the overlords, they never make it rhyme
And there is something in the air
That is burnin' in my throat
A big, black cloud is passin'
Droppin' acid on my coat

Stan Ridgway

695 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:29:23pm

re: #470 cslepage

So, by stating a belief in an event that science today tells us never happened, doesn't that invalidate everything else He said? If we can't trust Jesus to get his historical facts correct, how can we believe anything else that came out of His mouth?

A common fallacy. "If this piece of scripture is not literal truth, and just an allegory, then everything in the scripture is false, and my entire faith is nothing but bunk".

It is a poor foundation to base your faith upon.

696 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:29:41pm

re: #689 wolfie

The man has a long track record of extreme anti-Americanism and hatred of "white" science and "racist" education.

For the third time. Please post a link proving this assertion, so people can judge it for themselves instead of taking your obviously biased word for it.

697 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:31:58pm

re: #687 cslepage

I was really hoping you'd seriously answer my question instead of evading it. Oh well.

Goodnight, all.

Sucks getting the same crap you've been using all this thread thrown back at ya, doesn't it?

698 cslepage  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:32:53pm

re: #695 Slumbering Behemoth

A common fallacy. "If this piece of scripture is not literal truth, and just an allegory, then everything in the scripture is false, and my entire faith is nothing but bunk".

It is a poor foundation to base your faith upon.

There's a difference between understanding what is literal and what is allegorical in the Bible, and saying Jesus believed something to be factual when it is not. The latter means either Jesus was wrong, or what he stated was not recorded correctly. Either way, it spells trouble for the Bible.

699 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:34:16pm

re: #693 Sharmuta

You've been evasive here all night, so why the hell can't anyone else?

/oops- did I say hell?

I was considering in giving a straight answer to question but then realized that it would be a bit more forceful, laced with a lot more adult words than hell, and so decided to play nice in Charles' house.

700 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:35:28pm

Now for some sleeps...

701 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:35:33pm

re: #376 Maximu§

OT

Anyone here remember the thread about that maniac (Vince Li) who calmly murdered and beheaded his seatmate on that Greyhound bus in Canada?

Blogs are talking about Windigo possession and one website claims this happened in Alberta before in 1879.

Swift Runner the Cannibal

From what I know, Windigo's are an evil sprit that can take possession of people and turn them into cannibalistic monsters. Vince Li was obvioulsy a psychopath/sociopath, but I wonder if people in that frame of mind could become easy prey for a Windigo?

Fellow bus riders claimed Vince Li was totally calm as he sawed off that poor schmucks head....weird stuff, maybe that part of Alberta is haunted.

As far as I know, it is a true story, but that part of Alberta is actually quite scenic, and not haunted. Quite settled, actually.

I'd suggest that "windigo" is simply the pre-scientific explanation for an individual having a murderous psychotic episode.

Ogden Nash wrote a poem about the windigo. I'm quoting from memory here, so forgive me if I make an error:

A very strange beast is the Windigo,
With eyes of ice and indigo,
And as you contemplate his eyes,
He contemplates you, stomach-wise.

702 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:37:23pm

re: #528 jimc

That's not true. I have yet to see absolute scientific proof, that is a repeatable testable case that shows speciation.

[Link: myxo.css.msu.edu...]

I'm ok with genetic variation within species, we have that in the human race, clearly. What I object to is the speciation giving rise to more complex structures simply by accident which looks great on the macro level but when you zoom in on the small increments, it starts to look very wishy washy.

I sense a hint here if the discredited 2nd law of thermodynamics argument, combined with ignoring the fact that while mutation is random, environmental selection is not.

I watched the two episodes on evolution that you advertised here and the thing that stuck out the most was the explanation of the evolution of the eye, what a flimsy crock of pooh. The explanation relies heavily on ignoring some fundamental questions like why did the first light sensitive cells form in the first place? How did a genetic accident result in such a astounding fundamental achievement that survived beyond the first mutant? How did that first mutant to get the "accident" replicate it to enough generations to have the mutation become a useful tool? Why did later generations form concave light sensitive cells groupings? What drove that evolution? Why was it necesary? Or was it just another happy accident?

The light-sensitive cells most likely were a mutation from heat sensitivity (just a diffferent energy frequency). Thir hosts survived and reproduced because being able to better sense the surrounding environment is a critical survival skill for motile organisms to possess. It helps in finding food and mates, and in avoiding predators. Each subsequent elaboration - concavity, lensiation - was a mutation that survived because it conferred an enhanced survival capacity upon those organisms that possesssed it, compared to the pre-mutational configuration of the organ.

I want details, I'm not going to be satisfied with the yada yada answer explanation we get from these people.

And so I have provided you with some. You could find these things out by doing your own investigating. But you don't wanna acutally, like, find out stuff; you just wanna raise objections.

703 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:39:30pm

re: #702 Salamantis

And so I have provided you with some. You could find these things out by doing your own investigating. But you don't wanna acutally, like, find out stuff; you just wanna raise objections.

I sense the ID strong in this one, Sal. Facts ain't gonna change this one's opinion, I would conjecture.

704 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:40:05pm

re: #701 Alberta Oil Peon

As far as I know, it is a true story, but that part of Alberta is actually quite scenic, and not haunted. Quite settled, actually.

This is why I only go to Mexico........... Canada scares me.

705 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:44:22pm

re: #535 reuben

re: #519 Catttt

As someone who's been there, done that as far as the intelligent design/creationism/evolution debate goes, I find it odd that a conservative, Christian-majority blog is so against Creationism. There's far more "twisting" of science to support evolution than there is to support creation. Not to mention twisting of logic. Not to mention blind, dogmatic faith. Ever tried arguing the point with an evolutionist? You'd know what I mean.

This is an anti-idiotarian blog, and if you truly believe that science and logic are 'twisted' to support evolution, rather than evolution emerging from the science, then you are an ignorant idiotarian, and most likely willfully so. The only blind, dogmatic faith I see is the kind it takes to dismiss or ignore a ginormous amount of empirical evidence from several scientific disciplines, in favor of a literal reading of a 2+ millennia old myth. You have problems arguing with those who accept evolutionary theory because the empirical science is on their side, and religious dogma is insufficient to counter it.

706 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:45:50pm

re: #689 wolfie

I pretty sure wolfie did a poor job, too, because lots of people have smacked me for it! Sorry.

I was expressing the views of Gary Nash, the point man for judging history curricula in California. I was under-reaching. The man has a long track record of extreme anti-Americanism and hatred of "white" science and "racist" education.

Do you mean claims of revisionist history and multiculturalism, among others?

707 Spar Kling  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:56:38pm

re: #416 formercorpsman

My argument in a nut shell.

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Did we not just see a headline today about the Fairness Doctrine reaching beyond the airwaves and on to the internet?

But as long as the fairness doctrine is used to strangle ID on the internet, a fair number of folks here will probably welcome it!

Considering the basement-level education provided (in general) by the California secondary school system, it's laughable that the UC system should object to some goofy science text books . . . but that's not even the point. The point is that these university educrats are elitists, believing that they hold the keys to all Truth.

And the problem with all elitists, whether they are judicial, academic, journalistic, religious, political, or commercial, is that they despise ordinary people.

They see it as their Holy Duty to "educate" us, or if that fails, force us into what they know is best. These are your totalitarian wannabes who, if given a chance, will concentrate power (with themselves at the top) believing all the while that they are doing it for the Greater Good.

So, a free society will not only tolerate, but should protect goofy religion, goofy environmentalism, goofy economic views, and so on, because if it doesn't, you or I will someday be classified as goofy and then turned over to the tender mercies of some bureaucracy.

The controversy is where you draw the line. To what extent do you protect Branch Davidians, suicidal Heaven's Gaters, survivalists, neo Nazis, white supremacists, left-wing moonbats, creationists, or Republicans?

If you look through the previous posts, you will notice those folks who have an elitist outlook. Yes, we need to protect them too.

- sk

708 stevieray  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:56:38pm

re: #706 solomonpanting

Do you mean claims of revisionist history and multiculturalism, among others?

Working off memory, what little I remember about him was his theory of the American Revolution, He said it was driven mainly by economic distress and poverty in the colonies, and the ideas expressed in the Declaration of Independence were secondary... sort of an "add-on" to give legitimacy to the war.

The upshot of his theory was this: eliminating poverty was the true meaning of the revolution, so the way to be true to America's roots isn't following the constitution or the declaration, but to take whatever action necessary to uplift the poor.

[From memory... a couple of decades ago... don't quote me on it.]

709 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:56:56pm

re: #542 cslepage

No. What really bothers me is, men and women in "today's world" will continue to ignore or deny the truth of the Bible. They will continue to ignore or deny the sacrifice Jesus made to pay the price for our sins. For that matter, as long as we insist we are all just stumbling down a path ruled by evolution, speciation, and so on, then we are just animals, and things like morals, right and wrong, are temporary concerns.

This is America, where people are constitutionally free to choose their faith, or even choose to have none at all.

Also, not true on the morals thingie:
[Link: pinker.wjh.harvard.edu...]

But to argue against scientific knowledge on moral grounds is to commit what is known in logic as a category error:
[Link: www.naturalhistorymag.com...]

What really bothers me is the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell. Someone can believe in global warming or not and not have their life fundamentally affected. Someone could convince themselves they understand exactly how the human race came about, how many millions or billions of years it took, or not believe that at all, and still operate quite well in "today's world." But what they believe about Jesus will fundamentally change their life, and it concerns me that people here and elsewhere are so willing to buy into anything labeled "science" so as to either dismiss or dissect the Bible.

Sooo...you dogmatically argue Biblical factual supremacy over the empirical evidence of science...you could be a jihadi, arguing the same epistemologically supreme position for the Quran, and you would be no more incorrect.

710 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:57:12pm

re: #633 Charles

Someone had the story about this case in a link a couple of weeks ago. I read the court document and the info. The name Gary Nash jumped out at me because I remember him and his sidekick, Charlotte Crabtree, from back in the 1990's. (At the time I was assisting a prof w/ a textbook.)

After Congress passed the Goals 2000 Act, there was a movement coming out of UCLA to railroad extreme left-wing views through the Natl Educ Standards Council and impose them on the nation as a whole. Gary Nash was the point man in this endeavor and the main architect of what they called the United States History document.

I still have some papers about this from Nancy Kasselbaum's investigation in the Senate, which ultimately led Congress to reject national history standards altogether.

The description of Nash's views that I quoted way upthread was from the head of the Textbook League in the Textbook Letter. They may have a website and an archive. The year would be either late 1994 or 1995.

Sadly enough, the major historical associations did virtually nothing to oppose Nash, some even egged him on. But there were many scientific associations that did fight him. (His history almost completely ignored science, medicine, and technology, and when they were mentioned it was only negatively.)

711 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 10:58:42pm

re: #643 Thanos

It's probably cut n' paste from a worldnet rant.

I don't even know what worldnet is.

712 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:01:26pm

re: #710 wolfie

Still no link, I see.

713 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:01:30pm

re: #550 blue_like_jazz

if they were still taught the basic scientific principles and could demonstrate the knowledge the UC system wanted them to know (easily quantifiable by AP tests and/or the ACT) they should have been admitted.

what you're saying is that anyone who isn't taught what the STATE wants them to know is justifiably discriminated against.

what's next? history? what if a christian school teaches that America is a covenant nation with christian roots and not an experiment started by greedy white men?

will you say it's okay to not admit those students if the STATE likes the greedy white men theory better?

There you go again, still pushing that illegitimate slippery slope argument, after I've already exposed and discredited it once in this thread.

Insisting that science credits should be given out only for actually being taught science is the LEAST that university academic standards can do. Filling kids' brains with antiscientific dogma while teaching them how to pass a single admissions test doesn't qualify.

714 stevieray  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:02:14pm

re: #708 stevieray

That's it for the night... I hope. Time to try and sleep again.

I shouldn't let the problems of the world keep me awake at night, but I do. Some nights I go to bed, can't sleep, and get up again 3 or 4 times before I drift off.

But enough whining... Goodnight! I feel lucky this time!

715 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:03:42pm

re: #661 Charles

Papists?

Wow.

I am a Roman Catholic.
I believe in evolution.
I happen to think Darwin was not only a smart guy, but a good man.
I am adamantly opposed to teaching ID in science classes.
I am adamantly opposed to teaching ice-skating in French classes.
I am opposed to teaching ID philosophy or theology in any required public school course, and would rather they didn't teach it, even as an elective.

716 stevieray  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:03:46pm

re: #712 FurryOldGuyJeans

Still no link, I see.

Not everything is on the net...

717 Captain Faris  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:03:53pm

Harun Yayah actually does make one think twice about participating in public debate about creationism. (quick ref: HY is a Turkish Muslim counterpart to DI, sort of, and argues that Allah is the Creator.)

I don't think my pleasant agreeableness comes through; Charles thinks I like Putin and his minions and everyone else thinks I'm shilling for Bahai-esque Fundamentalism. I agree. People should have a mute button so that they can hide all comments from me. For a self-proclaimed scholar of miscommunication techniques, I'm pathetic.

Charles, I agree with your disdain for the ID proponents that dig themselves into worse logical fallacies than the Darwinists--though the competition is fierce. My criticisms are harsher of the ID advocates' line of reasoning than of the Darwinists'--though possibly the venom on your team is more virulent.

But, as was said elsewhere, many Believers appreciate your hard work and your help in tracking the Arab/Israeli Conflict and the Jihadists' tricks. Keep up the good work. And I'll be right with you on exposing the lunacy of the Christian Reconstructionists if you take them on. They are nearly non-existent percentage-wise; but my team isn't too bright and the CR crowd uses propaganda nearly as skillfully as the Commies and Jihadists.

Seriously, I'm more anti-Russian than you are. And my name is Scottish, not Arabic, in case any lurkers are wondering.

Thanks again for everything,
Phil

718 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:05:31pm

re: #708 stevieray

I only did a quick search of Nash and read a couple of reviews on this matter.
I hadn't heard of him and am only relating the criticisms throw his way.

719 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:05:54pm

re: #678 Charles

I've already asked you for a link to prove this statement, and you ignored it.

I don't know how to do links.
I am stupid.
I am also a hunt-and-peck typist.

720 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:06:40pm

re: #682 Thanos

Your obsession with anti-science is getting away with you.

Sorry someone snipped a comment of yours, it appeared that you were saying that. You did not spit on the constitution.


Why in hell are you calling me "anti-science?"

721 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:06:45pm

re: #535 reuben

re: #519 Catttt

As someone who's been there, done that as far as the intelligent design/creationism/evolution debate goes, I find it odd that a conservative, Christian-majority blog is so against Creationism. There's far more "twisting" of science to support evolution than there is to support creation. Not to mention twisting of logic. Not to mention blind, dogmatic faith. Ever tried arguing the point with an evolutionist? You'd know what I mean.

Whew! Talk about projection.

722 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:07:52pm

re: #692 Thanos

Are you sure you aren't a moby just here to insult various denominations of Christianity btw?

Baptoids? Snake Handlers? Papists? That's not neither kind nor Christian.


Maybe I'm just plain stupid.

723 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:08:45pm

re: #578 cslepage

I say this as a Christian. As a Christian I cannot help but be "pro Israel." To be alive at a point in history when the nation of Israel exists again is a gift from God I will always be thankful for.

But you support Israel not because of any sympathy for or acceptance of their theological position, but because of your own, which requires Israel to exist so that Armageddon can begin there, instigated by the Anti-Christ, and for Jews to exist so that they can mass-convert to Christianity during the End Times.

724 Nemesis6  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:08:57pm

Ah, yes, Michael Behe, the little scientist who COULD (repeat his long-debubked theories) when other scientists couldn't.

725 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:09:40pm

re: #719 wolfie

Links are easy- you just copy the URL and paste it in your comment form. You can even get fancy and highlight text and use the link function Charles coded. But I'll help you a little more:

[Link: www.textbookleague.org...]

726 Alberta Oil Peon  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:09:57pm

re: #542 cslepage

No. What really bothers me is, men and women in "today's world" will continue to ignore or deny the truth of the Bible. They will continue to ignore or deny the sacrifice Jesus made to pay the price for our sins. For that matter, as long as we insist we are all just stumbling down a path ruled by evolution, speciation, and so on, then we are just animals, and things like morals, right and wrong, are temporary concerns.

What really bothers me is the notion of anyone not accepting the gift of salvation and spending an eternity in Hell. Someone can believe in global warming or not and not have their life fundamentally affected. Someone could convince themselves they understand exactly how the human race came about, how many millions or billions of years it took, or not believe that at all, and still operate quite well in "today's world." But what they believe about Jesus will fundamentally change their life, and it concerns me that people here and elsewhere are so willing to buy into anything labeled "science" so as to either dismiss or dissect the Bible.

Pretty weak faith you have, if you have to prop it up with an edifice of pseudo-science.

727 kulhwch  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:12:00pm

re: #645 cslepage

No, you are not getting it. I have no idea the condition of your soul, or where you are going to be after you die. But given my understanding of Hell, I can't help but hope you, me, or anyone does not go there.

Don't worry, a lot of us aren't going there.  In fact, I hope to be back here within 48 days ...

}:)     [Maybe Chicago this time would be a good place to be born ... ]

728 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:15:03pm

re: #696 Charles

For the third time. Please post a link proving this assertion, so people can judge it for themselves instead of taking your obviously biased word for it.

For an article on Gary Nash's shenanigan's in 1994 written by the head of the California Academy of Sciences, see:

www.textbookleague.org/56nash.htm

I'm sorry to take so long.

729 Throbert McGee  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:18:33pm

re: #470 cslepage

So, by stating a belief in an event that science today tells us never happened, doesn't that invalidate everything else He said? If we can't trust Jesus to get his historical facts correct, how can we believe anything else that came out of His mouth?

Well, here's an alternative theory for you to chew on:

• Let's say that Christianity is mostly true (Jesus is the Son of God and he was resurrected after being crucified, to save us from our sins), BUT...

• ...a lot of the stuff in Genesis is just made-up fairytales -- like, Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden never happened. And the global flood was just a local event, and Moses didn't literally part the Red Sea like in the Charlton Heston movie...

• ...HOWEVER, these simplistic fairytales were made up by God, because He knew that human beings weren't yet sophisticated enough to deal with the mildly embarrassing fact that God had in fact made them out of highly evolved talking monkeys that had been made out of primitive rat-like critters that had been made out of lizard-ish critters with fur that were made out of frog-esque thingamajigs, and so on back to the primordial goop, because God is a perfectionist who loves to do things the hard way, starting from scratch, much like Martha Stewart...

• ...and since Jesus was the Son of God and knew what the real deal was, he played along with the whole charade: "oh, yeah, there really was a world-wide flood, and it's totally true about Eve and the snake." Kinda like when older siblings collaborate with the parental fib about Santa, to avoid spoiling things for their younger brothers and sisters who haven't figured it out yet.

Thus, since Jesus was only playing along with God's little fib when he endorsed the story of Noah's Flood -- which is to say he didn't tell a lie out of malice, nor did he make a mistake -- you can still believe the other stuff that comes out of his mouth even if the Flood didn't really happen.

730 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:21:14pm

wiki is rather bland about Gary B. Nash.

731 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:23:04pm

re: #725 Sharmuta

Links are easy- you just copy the URL and paste it in your comment form. You can even get fancy and highlight text and use the link function Charles coded. But I'll help you a little more:

[Link: www.textbookleague.org...]

Thank you, Sharmuta.
I obviously am going to have to learn how to do that.
I think I'll pick a really dead thread for practice.

732 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:24:16pm

re: #731 wolfie

Thank you, Sharmuta.
I obviously am going to have to learn how to do that.
I think I'll pick a really dead thread for practice.

No time like the present. Just include the http part.

733 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:27:55pm

re: #732 Sharmuta

No time like the present. Just include the http part.


Oh no.
You aren't going to actually make me DO it, are you?
Can't I just think about doing it?
Or talk about it?
Or make a resolution?

734 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:31:56pm

re: #497 jimc

I have no jihadi in my bed....

Quizzical troll is quizzical.

735 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:33:26pm

Will this work?null

736 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:34:07pm

re: #734 Slumbering Behemoth

Quizzical troll is quizzical.

But is troll meat halal or haram?

737 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:34:57pm

re: #642 Captain Faris

None of the straw-man ad hominem descriptions that this flame-thread attributes to Believers actually apply to them as people. They are more "scientific method centric" than average; they score higher on science tests than average; they never eschew investigation of unknown mysteries; etc.

It is true that Believers "debating" with the educational establishment and governments about the teaching of Evolution use naive and far-fetched words and arguments as they attempt to fight what they see as a detrimental curriculum being imposed on students in the sciences to match the detrimental curriculum being imposed on students in the humanities.

So they are educated in the sciences, you say? Then how can they know about the Galapagos Finches and not accept speciation? How can they know about Lenski's e. coli and not accept macromutation? How can they know about artifactual retroviral DNA and not accept common ancestry? How can they be aware of this empirical science and still adhere to the positions that they hold?

No, I think that they are either willfully ignorant and uneducated concerning these things, or else they studiously dismiss and ignore them. And neither alternative recommends them as qualified to decide that a curriculum imposed in sciences classes is detrimental.

738 eastvillageinfidel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:39:34pm

re: #733 wolfie

LOL! You are cute. I too have fear of the linking thing. I'm rooting for ya!

739 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:40:39pm

re: #650 cslepage

If I kill someone with a fork, the problem is not with the fork, which is a perfectly useful utensil. The problem is with how I used it.

I'm not implying there is a problem with free will. There is a problem, however, with how we often use it. Fortunately, there is a solution.

The solution that Dominican monks in Central America practiced centuries ago was to baptize Native American infants into Christianity, then grasp them by their heels and swing them around and smash their tiny soft skulls into walls, so that they couldn't backslide and fall away from their souls being immortally saved by virtue of being raised by their pagan parents into heathen beliefs.

740 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:41:27pm

re: #738 eastvillageinfidel

LOL! You are cute. I too have fear of the linking thing. I'm rooting for ya!

Well, I did get some pretty blue letters!
Unfortunately, they spell NULL. :(

741 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:41:33pm

re: #698 cslepage

There's a difference between understanding what is literal and what is allegorical in the Bible, and saying Jesus believed something to be factual when it is not. The latter means either Jesus was wrong, or what he stated was not recorded correctly.

Let's consider that for a brief moment...recorded by humans, passed down by humans, all passages approved canonical by a council of humans, interpreted by humans...

Either way, it spells trouble for the Bible.

Damn the bible and let the truth be known! Do such concepts (non-literal interpretations of Christian scripture) spell trouble for your personal faith?

742 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:51:50pm

re: #741 Slumbering Behemoth

Here's the thing- Jesus did not come here to set the historical, scientific record straight. He came here to tell us how to have a better relationship with God and each other.

Did you get that creationists? Let me repeat it:

Jesus did not come here to set the historical, scientific record straight. He came here to tell us how to have a better relationship with God and each other.

743 Salamantis  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:52:21pm

re: #698 cslepage

There's a difference between understanding what is literal and what is allegorical in the Bible, and saying Jesus believed something to be factual when it is not. The latter means either Jesus was wrong, or what he stated was not recorded correctly. Either way, it spells trouble for the Bible.

In that case, that part of the Bible's in a Whole Heap o' Big Trouble.

744 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:59:16pm

re: #741 Slumbering Behemoth

Let's consider that for a brief moment...recorded by humans, passed down by humans, all passages approved canonical by a council of humans, interpreted by humans...

You forgot translated by humans from one language to another. ;)

745 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 11:59:35pm

re: #523 Zoomie


LGFers need a little more concern about our wonderful, all knowing, government possibly crossing a line and imposing philosophy and a state-approved worldview on the church, in the name of science.

Hyperbole.

746 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 12:02:03am

re: #707 Spar Kling

But as long as the fairness doctrine is used to strangle ID on the internet, a fair number of folks here will probably welcome it!

Considering the basement-level education provided (in general) by the California secondary school system, it's laughable that the UC system should object to some goofy science text books . . . but that's not even the point. The point is that these university educrats are elitists, believing that they hold the keys to all Truth.

Well, if one can judge such things by their refusal to accredit high school credits for 'science' classes being taught from books by Bob Jones University or A Beka Books is any indication, at least their bullshit meters are functioning just fine. One doesn't have to know All Truth in order to recognize Some Lies.

And the problem with all elitists, whether they are judicial, academic, journalistic, religious, political, or commercial, is that they despise ordinary people.

They see it as their Holy Duty to "educate" us, or if that fails, force us into what they know is best. These are your totalitarian wannabes who, if given a chance, will concentrate power (with themselves at the top) believing all the while that they are doing it for the Greater Good.

Umm...it's the IDiots who are trying to legislatively force public high school science classes to indoctrinate everybody's children with their religious dogmas.

So, a free society will not only tolerate, but should protect goofy religion, goofy environmentalism, goofy economic views, and so on, because if it doesn't, you or I will someday be classified as goofy and then turned over to the tender mercies of some bureaucracy.

Tolerate is fine. No one's trying to close these dogma mills down. But accredit is a different matter entirely; academic standards are involved. Indoctrination ain't education.

The controversy is where you draw the line. To what extent do you protect Branch Davidians, suicidal Heaven's Gaters, survivalists, neo Nazis, white supremacists, left-wing moonbats, creationists, or Republicans?

If you look through the previous posts, you will notice those folks who have an elitist outlook. Yes, we need to protect them too.

- sk

I notice that you removed your (paraphrasing) 'nothing in this post should be construed as being pro-teaching-creationism-in-public-high-school-sci ence-class' coda.

747 reuben  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 12:11:29am

^^ Although I guess that it's a matter of school curriculum makes a difference.

748 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 12:12:54am

re: #528 jimc

What testable, falsifiable hypotheses does your version of religion put forth? What testable, falsifiable theories have been presented by the your version of religion? On what grounds can the DI claim that your version of religion is a scientific theory? How does your version of religion stand up to observable, testable, empirical facts?

I want details, and I will not be satisfied with the vacuous explanations we get from common trolls.

749 hazzyday  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 12:19:58am

re: #642 Captain Faris

What about your fellow believers that are head choppers?

And you probably write with too much "i" try leaving it out completely next time.

750 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 12:26:24am

re: #533 Charles

The UC board said, "if you're going to teach that, we're not going to accredit these classes."

Hmm... I had forgotten that part of the story which appeared before this thread.

The few students in this case are not, in fact, being denied entry, but are being denied credits for the few classes that do not meet UC standards.

They can get in, but need to take a few more classes to make up for this deficiency, correct?

/Oh, the humanity! How shall the persecuted masses survive such oppression?

751 hazzyday  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 12:29:15am

re: #678 Charles

I've already asked you for a link to prove this statement, and you ignored it.

Nash Link

Here is one, first I have heard of this. Notably one of the people in the Senate driving against Nash. Slade Gorton. Discovery insititute members. I always voted for him.

752 wolfie  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 12:56:35am

re: #751 hazzyday

Nash Link

Here is one, first I have heard of this. Notably one of the people in the Senate driving against Nash. Slade Gorton. Discovery insititute members. I always voted for him.

William Bennetta is the author of article and also of the analysis of the history document that he links there. He was a member of the California Academy of Sciences, which did more to oppose Nash's agenda than the cowardly, PC historians did.

Did you read the article and the linked analysis?

Are you saying that because Gorton was in the Senate then that this is all nonsense? Are you saying that the other 95+ Senators that voted against Nash's standards were all Disco shills?

Are you saying that because I oppose the Discovery Institute and its agenda (which I do, BTW), and because a Senator back then was associated with the DI (I'll take your word for it), that I can't oppose Nash?

753 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 12:59:40am

re: #542 cslepage

No. What really bothers me is, men and women in "today's world" will continue to ignore or deny the truth of the Bible. They will continue to ignore or deny the sacrifice Jesus made to pay the price for our sins. For that matter, as long as we insist we are all just stumbling down a path ruled by evolution, speciation, and so on, then we are just animals, and things like morals, right and wrong, are temporary concerns.

Hmm...FU Jack Chick!

Get over yourself. Your version of the One True FaithTM does not give you a greater moral foundation than those of other faiths, or those who have no faith. Nor does it give you a foundation from which you can assail reason and empirical evidence with heart-felt conjecture or high school philosophy.

Yeah, if we accept the 150+ year long verifiable study of the theory of evolution, then we will become nothing more than crap-flinging tree-dwellers.

Get your mind right, this nonsense rates right down there with basement lurking troofers, and is the direct antithesis of conservatism.

If you you can't reconcile the need for personal responsibility without the presence of some Great Overseer to dictate how you, I, and all should live, than you have no right to call yourself a conservative. None!

Join a socialist group and go full-on leftist. Your ideology most certainly seems to favor such leanings.

754 wolfie  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 1:02:58am

re: #752 wolfie

I can oppose him.
I just can't say I oppose him.

I shouldn't have brought it up.

755 hazzyday  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 1:04:36am

re: #752 wolfie

I read part of it. Will read more tomorrow. It was just interesting to note in the scope of the DI and education links that Slade's name was there. And that he is also a member of the DI. I think he is probably on their transportation effort the same as another Washington State member at the DI.

But I would be just as concerned about this guy as the DI. I already have Nash types hammering on me at work. There is no way to issue any type of dissent to them. One probably couldn't even take them to court. Kids are being raised on this content in the public school systems.

756 wolfie  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 1:09:27am

re: #755 hazzyday

Especially in the inner cities schools and schools with a lot a immigrants.

757 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 1:10:37am

re: #550 blue_like_jazz

what's next? history? what if a christian school teaches that America is a covenant nation with christian roots and not an experiment started by greedy white men?

Demonstrably, it is neither.

758 reuben  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 1:22:52am

re: #540 Charles

I'd argue that there is. By definition conservatism denotes conserving something; what has been the tradition of the Christian faith since its inception. Unless you think Jesus believed in evolution.

Course I've no way of knowing how many here are Christians or not. Seems there'd be a bit more support for at least entertaining opposing ideas though.

759 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 1:25:08am

re: #562 Killgore Trout

The Age of Reason has ended. Enlightenment is dead. All aboard for the 11th century!

We shall seek safety in the low grounds and the caverns, occasionally stepping out to suffer the slings and arrows of those who suppress truth, justice, and the American way; and we shall defy the unholy oppression of the state that denies our children their bread.
/sosarcish

760 reuben  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 1:44:13am

Is evolution falsifiable? Can it be repeated? No, and no. Some scientific data can be construed to support it but by definition it's no more science than creation is. And what's the problem supposed to be if children are taught that evolution may not have occurred? They might, um, believe that evolution might not have occurred? Guess what, so do not a few of the world's leading scientists in various fields - it doesn't seem to affect their scientific ability.

761 Spar Kling  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 2:43:58am

re: #550 blue_like_jazz

if they were still taught the basic scientific principles and could demonstrate the knowledge the UC system wanted them to know (easily quantifiable by AP tests and/or the ACT) they should have been admitted.

what you're saying is that anyone who isn't taught what the STATE wants them to know is justifiably discriminated against.

what's next? history? what if a christian school teaches that
America is a covenant nation with christian roots and not an experiment
started by greedy white men?

will you say it's okay to not admit those students if the STATE likes the greedy white men theory better?

You would think that good test scores would be sufficient to demonstrate competence. But unfortunately this is not important to universities with a social agenda.

You have to understand that there are some people that are so obsessed with forcing their worldview on others, that they would be delighted to be able to exclude from college all students (and professors) with a different worldview under one pretext or another. That's probably the major reason why Ben Stein made his film, Expelled.

So, it's not hard to predict that the UC system will expand their "standards" for other subjects as well. Fortunately, there are many better colleges to attend, both public and private.

- sk

762 wolfie  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 2:53:14am

re: #663 Thanos

That's what I said. We know this one's phyloreligious tree now.

I am not "this one."
People are not specimens to be shoved in a box and labeled according to your pet categories.

And, BTW, you happen to be wrong.

re: #692 Thanos

Are you sure you aren't a moby just here to insult various denominations of Christianity btw?

Baptoids? Snake Handlers? Papists? That's not neither kind nor Christian.

I honestly apologize to anyone who was offended by what I wrote. I should have used quotation marks.

My point was that Reconstructionism is not embraced by most Christian sects and is opposed by many groups that you and/or others would not hesitate to decry. I expressed it very clumsily, and I think you are right to reprimand me for that.

On the other hand, I must say I have never seen you object when Protestant literalists are called "Bible-thumpers," "Fundies," "religious nuts," "Christian crazies," "Christo-fascists," etc. etc. etc. without the benefit of quotation marks.


re: #682 Thanos

Your obsession with anti-science is getting away with you.

You are reacting reflexively.
I have been expressing concern in regard to history standards.
I don't know the answers, but I think the questions about what is a "standard" or "substandard" history curriculum are problematic.

763 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:05:11am

re: #760 reuben

Is evolution falsifiable? Can it be repeated? No, and no.

To falsify evolution, all you have to do is find a fossil that radiometrically dates to an era in which if evolution is true it would be impossible for it to exist. Say, a rabbit fossil in the Cambrian era.

Or one could find a case where widely divergent forms, like, say, sea sponges and jaguars, had practically identical DNA, or a case where very close life forms, for instance, foxes and jackals, had vastly different DNA.

Or you could find that the earth actually is only a few thousand years old.

But none of these have happened.

Evolution is falsifiable. But it has not been falsified. And that is most likely because it is true that life evolutionarily diverged and speciated from a few common ancestors via random mutation and nonrandom environmental selection.

Lenski can repeat the macroevolution of e. coli into strains that can metabolize citric acid at will in his lab, because he saved and froze populations of them every few generations, from before the evolution occurred till afterwards. All he has to do is to thaw some of them out and allow them to reproduce through generations. He has already done this a few times, and the macroevolution repeatedly manifests.

Some scientific data can be construed to support it but by definition it's no more science than creation is.

Actually, umm, no, since there is absolutely NO credible scientific data that supports creationism. Zilch. Zip. Nada. And there is no rational doubt that there is massive empirical evidence that supports evolutionary theory, with no interpretational stretching whatsoever; it simply and transparently does.

And what's the problem supposed to be if children are taught that evolution may not have occurred? They might, um, believe that evolution might not have occurred? Guess what, so do not a few of the world's leading scientists in various fields - it doesn't seem to affect their scientific ability.

Those relatively few scientists are not practicing in life-science-related fields such as biology, botany, genetics or paleontology, or else they were scientists from waay back before the Origin Of Species was published, or else they make their livings shilling for groups like the Disco Institute and ICR instead of actually doing science.

764 cslepage  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:06:25am

re: #753 Slumbering Behemoth

Hmm...FU Jack Chick!

Get over yourself. Your version of the One True FaithTM does not give you a greater moral foundation than those of other faiths, or those who have no faith. Nor does it give you a foundation from which you can assail reason and empirical evidence with heart-felt conjecture or high school philosophy.

Yeah, if we accept the 150+ year long verifiable study of the theory of evolution, then we will become nothing more than crap-flinging tree-dwellers.

Get your mind right, this nonsense rates right down there with basement lurking troofers, and is the direct antithesis of conservatism.

If you you can't reconcile the need for personal responsibility without the presence of some Great Overseer to dictate how you, I, and all should live, than you have no right to call yourself a conservative. None!

Join a socialist group and go full-on leftist. Your ideology most certainly seems to favor such leanings.

Your first point indicates you, as a conservative, have no grounds to tell liberals or anyone else you believe your ideas are better.

Your last point indicates you don't think Christians can be political conservatives.

I fear rational, scientific thinking isn't fairing so well in this thread.

765 cslepage  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:09:16am

re: #742 Sharmuta

Here's the thing- Jesus did not come here to set the historical, scientific record straight. He came here to tell us how to have a better relationship with God and each other.

Did you get that creationists? Let me repeat it:

Jesus did not come here to set the historical, scientific record straight. He came here to tell us how to have a better relationship with God and each other.

Supposing there's any accuracy or truth to that, did that give Him liberty to talk about the Flood as if it really happened? Did that give Him liberty to lie to us?

He didn't come to tell us how to have a better relationship with God. He came to achieve the means for us to have the only relationship with God.

766 cslepage  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:11:25am

re: #741 Slumbering Behemoth

Damn the bible and let the truth be known! Do such concepts (non-literal interpretations of Christian scripture) spell trouble for your personal faith?

No. Anyone else's interpretation of the Bible does not threaten my faith, even interpretations that say portions of the Bible that are clearly literal are not.

767 cslepage  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:13:00am

re: #739 Salamantis

The solution that Dominican monks in Central America practiced centuries ago was to baptize Native American infants into Christianity, then grasp them by their heels and swing them around and smash their tiny soft skulls into walls, so that they couldn't backslide and fall away from their souls being immortally saved by virtue of being raised by their pagan parents into heathen beliefs.

Yet another reason I left the Catholic church.

768 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:13:57am

re: #758 reuben

I'd argue that there is. By definition conservatism denotes conserving something; what has been the tradition of the Christian faith since its inception. Unless you think Jesus believed in evolution.

Course I've no way of knowing how many here are Christians or not. Seems there'd be a bit more support for at least entertaining opposing ideas though.

Empirical science and religious dogma aren't even on the same playing field - or at least, they aren't supposed to be. Religion is supposed to be untestible and evidentially bereft, while science is supposed to be testable and evidentially buttressed. It's hard for two things in such hugely different realms to come into opposition, unless one of them tries to illegitimately poach upon the other one's realm, which is precisely what the adherents of dogmatic religion do when they intrudes it into areas amenable to empirical investigation. So it shouldn't be any surprise whatsoever when their fallacious moves into arenas other than their own get discredited, rebutted and refuted, with massive supporting empirical evidence for such discreditings, rebuttals and refutations.

769 cslepage  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:14:57am

re: #729 Throbert McGee

Thus, since Jesus was only playing along with God's little fib when he endorsed the story of Noah's Flood -- which is to say he didn't tell a lie out of malice, nor did he make a mistake -- you can still believe the other stuff that comes out of his mouth even if the Flood didn't really happen.

A God that can fib is no God at all.

770 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:17:00am

re: #760 reuben

With new and improved formatting!

Is evolution falsifiable? Can it be repeated? No, and no.

To falsify evolution, all you have to do is find a fossil that radiometrically dates to an era in which if evolution is true it would be impossible for it to exist. Say, a rabbit fossil in the Cambrian era.

Or one could find a case where widely divergent forms, like, say, sea sponges and jaguars, had practically identical DNA, or a case where very close life forms, for instance, foxes and jackals, had vastly different DNA.

Or you could find that the earth actually is only a few thousand years old.

But none of these have happened.

Evolution is falsifiable. But it has not been falsified. And that is most likely because it is true that life evolutionarily diverged and speciated from a few common ancestors via random mutation and nonrandom environmental selection.

Lenski can repeat the macroevolution of e. coli into strains that can metabolize citric acid at will in his lab, because he saved and froze populations of them every few generations, from before the evolution occurred till afterwards. All he has to do is to thaw some of them out and allow them to reproduce through generations. He has already done this a few times, and the macroevolution repeatedly manifests.

Some scientific data can be construed to support it but by definition it's no more science than creation is.

Actually, umm, no, since there is absolutely NO credible scientific data that supports creationism. Zilch. Zip. Nada. And there is no rational doubt that there is massive empirical evidence that supports evolutionary theory, with no interpretational stretching whatsoever; it simply and transparently does.

And what's the problem supposed to be if children are taught that evolution may not have occurred? They might, um, believe that evolution might not have occurred? Guess what, so do not a few of the world's leading scientists in various fields - it doesn't seem to affect their scientific ability.

Those relatively few scientists are not practicing in life-science-related fields such as biology, botany, genetics or paleontology, or else they were scientists from waay back before the Origin Of Species was published, or else they make their livings shilling for groups like the Disco Institute and ICR instead of actually doing science.

771 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:24:06am

re: #764 cslepage

I fear rational, scientific thinking isn't fairing so well in this thread.

Well, it's faring well enough to conclusively refute the likes of you.

772 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:28:30am

re: #769 cslepage

A God that can fib is no God at all.

Then you'll have a real hard time explaining all those really old fossils and those even older rocks, and the red-shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo background radiation, and all of the artifactual retroviral DNA evidence, without accepting evolutionary theory, won't you? Because otherwise, you'd have to accept that God is using the earth itself, the fossils found in it, the energy signature of the universe, and the very plans in the genes found in every cell of every living thing on this planet, all to lie to us with.

773 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:30:09am

re: #765 cslepage

Supposing there's any accuracy or truth to that, did that give Him liberty to talk about the Flood as if it really happened? Did that give Him liberty to lie to us?

He didn't come to tell us how to have a better relationship with God. He came to achieve the means for us to have the only relationship with God.

Maybe the folks that wrote that he said such things were the ones who were making up lies.

774 cslepage  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:30:47am

re: #771 Salamantis

Well, it's faring well enough to conclusively refute the likes of you.

You mean, statements like this?

"Religion is supposed to be untestible and evidentially bereft"

The Christian faith, however, is testable. It encourages believers to test God's promises, to seek evidence, and to understand how this world really works.

775 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:33:00am

re: #766 cslepage

No. Anyone else's interpretation of the Bible does not threaten my faith, even interpretations that say portions of the Bible that are clearly literal are not.

And of course you are absotively posilutely certain which portions Divinely were meant to be literal and which ones were intended to be parables or metaphors. And you know this without a shadow of a doubt how? Talk about elephantine hubris!

776 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:36:28am

re: #774 cslepage

You mean, statements like this?

"Religion is supposed to be untestible and evidentially bereft"

The Christian faith, however, is testable. It encourages believers to test God's promises, to seek evidence, and to understand how this world really works.

Just how does one go about testing, in the physical world, the metaphysical intervention of the God Hand? How does one empirically prove, in a trstable fashion repeatable under controlled conditions, that Here is Where God Tinkered with the Genome? Please describe to me a scientific experiment by means of which one might verify such an intervention, and the technology necessary to implement it.

777 cslepage  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:36:37am

re: #772 Salamantis

Then you'll have a real hard time explaining all those really old fossils and those even older rocks, and the red-shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo background radiation, and all of the artifactual retroviral DNA evidence, without accepting evolutionary theory, won't you? Because otherwise, you'd have to accept that God is using the earth itself, the fossils found in it, the energy signature of the universe, and the very plans in the genes found in every cell of every living thing on this planet, all to lie to us with.

So our current, meager understanding of the Earth and the universe, our belief that we know how old fossils and rocks are, is based upon something God told us? Did God tell the scientific community the world was flat, and then tell them the world was round?

778 Salamantis  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:36:55am

umm...testable fashion...pimf

779 Slumbering Behemoth  Thu, Aug 14, 2008 3:40:06am

re: #760 reuben

Is evolution The Great Spirit falsifiable? Can it be repeated The Great Spirit be observed or empirically tested? No, and no. Is the parable of Fireface a parable, or historical fact? Hmm...

Some scientific data can be construed to support it but by definition it's no more science than creation is.

And what's the problem supposed to be if children are taught that evolution may not have occurred? They might, um, believe that evolution might not have occurred?

You haven't been paying close attention to this issue, have you?

Guess what, so do not a few of the world's leading scientists in various fields - it doesn't seem to affect their scientific ability.

Yeah, how is that Hadron Collider progressing for us? Shit! Wait, what?!?

/funny, but I bet you...

[DISCLAIMER] All snarky links above (including those in quotations) were inserted by me, and are not the machinations of reuben, or any other party.

780 Salamantis &nbs