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Stealth Creationist Play Shot Down in California

Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 5:54:15 pm PDT

Yet another stealth creationist play was shot down by the courts yesterday in California. The Association of Christian Schools International, Calvary Chapel Christian School, and parents attending the Chapel School filed suit against the University of California, after UC ruled that several courses taught by the Christian schools did not meet admission requirements.

The reason for UC’s decision? You guessed it. The courses taught by these schools were full of creationist and anti-science rubbish.

The Questionable Authority has more: Quality Education Wins Again in the California Creationist Case.

For most of us, the rejection of the courses was nothing more than the natural consequence of the Christian schools’ decision to reject reality and teach fantasy. From their perspective, it represented an unconstitutional attack on their freedom of religion. The court, obviously, did not agree. To see why, we really need look no farther than the introduction to the biology textbook used in one of the rejected courses:

The people who prepared this book have tried consistently to put the Word of God first and science second...If...at any point God’s Word is not put first, the authors apologize.

That should be enough right there to explain why UC didn’t think that the plaintiffs were teaching a reasonable approximation of a college prep biology class. If it’s not enough, I wrote several posts examining the “textbook” used in some of the rejected biology classes last year. It’s very clear that the schools involved are teaching the worst kind of creationist garbage, and trying to pass it off as biology.

UPDATE at 8/13/08 6:32:04 pm:

And look who turns up again on the side of the creationists—Discovery Institute Senior Fellow Michael Behe: NCSE Resource — Victory in California creationism case.

Michael Behe, a proponent of “intelligent design” creationism, served as an expert witness for the plaintiffs, but his defense of the textbooks were unavailing. In his ruling, Judge Otero wrote, “Plaintiffs offer little admissible evidence to the contrary. Plaintiffs’ Biology expert, Dr. Michael Behe, submitted a declaration concluding that the BJU text mentions standard scientific content. ... However, Professor Behe ‘did not consider how much detail or depth’ the texts gave to this standard content. ... Therefore, Professor Behe fails to refute one of Professor Kennedy’s primary concerns that the nature of science, the theory of evolution, and critical thinking are not taught adequately. Accordingly, there is no genuine issue of material fact as to this issue. Defendants had a rational basis for rejecting Calvary Baptist’s proposed Biology course.”

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1 Macker  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:56:18pm

Is this a case of rendering unto Caesar?

2 rawmuse  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:57:05pm

My Christian brothers and sisters, there simply is no future in being a modern day flat earther.

3 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:58:12pm

I took AP biology many years ago...we disected cats.

4 Shay4l  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:58:39pm

How do they feel about classes promoting leftwing causes de jour?

Both should be disqualified.

5 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:59:10pm

re: #2 rawmuse

It's very important that Christians reject this stuff. The future belongs to those who show up.

6 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 5:59:37pm

Any indication what curriculum the parents had used that was rejected by the UC system?

7 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:00:43pm

re: #3 BignJames

Living ones? Must have been hard with them 'rigglin' 'bout n' 'owlin.

8 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:00:48pm

re: #2 rawmuse

My Christian brothers and sisters, there simply is no future in being a modern day flat earther.

Agreed.

To survive in this day and age you must understand, work with and employ science as it stands today. Without it you will not be able to operate in today's world.

9 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:01:11pm

re: #6 calcajun

Any indication what curriculum the parents had used that was rejected by the UC system?

Creation science.

10 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:02:57pm

re: #9 Sharmuta

No joke, Maynard. I meant that these families and schools use specific programs and texts put out by different publishers. Does anyone know the name of the text and/or program.

11 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:03:08pm

re: #9 Sharmuta


It went beyond that. Even their history classes were rejected for attributing historical events as miracles by god instead of actions by men. They had some really wacky stuff in their classes.

12 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:03:37pm

re: #7 calcajun


No....but have you ever seen a big pile of dead cats? Individually packaged, of course.

13 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:04:21pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Again, what were the names of the texts rejected by the UC system?

14 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:04:38pm

re: #7 calcajun

Really- is this the sort of thing the UC system should accept as a legitimate science class lesson? On the inside of a biology book from the school:

The people who prepared this book have tried consistently to put the Word of God first and science second...If...at any point God's Word is not put first, the authors apologize.

I'd toss that out as a legitimate science class myself.

15 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:04:51pm

Well, hooray for that much.

Now, they need to dis-credential (is that a word?) these guys.

16 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:09pm

re: #12 BignJames

No....but have you ever seen a big pile of dead cats? Individually packaged, of course.

Sounds like something that would warm the cockles of Hannibal Lecter's heart.

17 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:18pm

re: #12 BignJames

Used to work in a bio lab. Prepped dissection trays and had to prep frogs, fetal pigs, etc., for dissection.

Cleanup was neat, though foul smelling. Trays were cleaned by torching them...

18 wrenchwench  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:20pm

When I was in biology class in high school, the class was surveyed about common genetic traits, like hair and eye color, right and left-handedness, whether one could curl one's tongue in a tube shape, whether one's earlobe was attached or detached, and I can't remember what else. The results were tabulated, then everyone stood together in front of the classroom. The teacher read off each trait, and what the majority of us had for that trait. Everyone who was in the minority had to go sit down. I was the only one standing at the end.

The allegorical moral of the story is that even if you are “right” on every issue, you could still end up standing all alone. It means nothing when you’re talking about genetics, but If you’re talking about standing on your principles, it means a lot.

19 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:23pm

re: #13 calcajun

I don't mean to sound rude- but there is a link provided, with other links contained therein.

20 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:50pm

re: #4 Shay4l

How do they feel about classes promoting leftwing causes de jour?

Both should be disqualified.

In lieu of the disallowed classes, and for extra credit, write an essay detailing how you feel about creationism vs. science.

UC Admissions

21 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:51pm

re: #10 calcajun

No joke, Maynard. I meant that these families and schools use specific programs and texts put out by different publishers. Does anyone know the name of the text and/or program.

They're using books published by Bob Jones University.

22 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:05:56pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

It went beyond that. Even their history classes were rejected for attributing historical events as miracles by god instead of actions by men. They had some really wacky stuff in their classes.

That would be the sort of history I blew my top over, a few threads back.

23 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:07:34pm

Oh. I thought that they were going to perform a PLAY. I was thinking "why can't they do Oklahoma or Cats like everyone else?

24 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:08:40pm

re: #13 calcajun
PDF.....
A SAMPLING OF REJECTED CALVARY CHAPEL CHRISTIAN SCHOOL COURSES

It also gives a brief description of why they were rejected. Take the descriptions with a grain of salt. This is hosted on a Christian site and they may have done some creative editing.

25 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:08:52pm

re: #17 lawhawk

Did a live frog in 10th grade biology...you had to "pith" the frog.

26 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:09:12pm

But how will World Net Daily spin this?

27 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:10:09pm

re: #18 wrenchwench

When I was in biology class in high school, the class was surveyed about common genetic traits, like hair and eye color, right and left-handedness, whether one could curl one's tongue in a tube shape, whether one's earlobe was attached or detached, and I can't remember what else. The results were tabulated, then everyone stood together in front of the classroom. The teacher read off each trait, and what the majority of us had for that trait. Everyone who was in the minority had to go sit down. I was the only one standing at the end.

Hah! I remember that class. 6th grade here. We didn't study the actual DNA codons behind any of those "genetic" traits though. I'd have enjoyed it more if they had. DNA is fun stuff.

I particularly like how it traces human ancestry to one woman in Africa, and how they're getting able to trace the climate in Africa 130-70,000 years ago based on bottlenecks. And don't forget Toba!

28 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:10:44pm

re: #21 Charles

They're using books published by Bob Jones University.


These kids could probably gain admission there.

29 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:11:02pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

I'm pretty sure they've already declared it an anti-Christian crusade.

30 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:11:03pm

Bwahahaha ... they got themselves an expert witness:

And they've got help - an expert witness. That's right, the Christian schools have found themselves someone who is willing to stand up and argue that a textbook that "puts the Word of God first and science second" really does teach standard science. Who, you might wonder, is the scientist brave enough to stand up to the harsh wind of reality and claim that teaching that, "man is a special creation that is completely separate from the physical universe and the animal kingdom," is just an addition to "standard" science? Professor Michael Joseph Behe of Lehigh University, that's who.

The Christian schools hired Dr. Behe (for $20,000) as an expert in "biology and physics."

31 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:11:27pm

re: #21 Charles

They're using books published by Bob Jones University.

BJU Press?

No innuendo to be made of that at all. None whatsoever. Nope. No sirree.

It sounds vaguely like the Staples Easy button for fellatio.

32 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:11:50pm

Behe's getting rich off this steaming pile of horse manure. At the expense of the gullible.

33 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:12:01pm

re: #30 Thanos

If you read the judges first summary judgment, Behe helped the UC and not the high schools. He really has a knack.

34 quickjustice  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:13:50pm

"You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." So why are the creationists hiding from the truth?

35 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:13:53pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

Here it is....
1ST AMENDMENT ON TRIAL
Ruling that Christian message 'offensive' appealed to Supreme Court

36 ASU86PE  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:15:14pm

I do not apologize for something like this, but as a Christian I am surprised and sad they filed a suit.

In Christian Education, my wife and I are a part of a school, it is usually accepted that the teaching of faith is not transferable. They (UC, et al secular education) have their rules and we Christians have ours. It is as if they purposefully set out to test their strength.

I do accept that certain ideas found in the Bible are scientific and others are not. I do not accept the flaunting of faith as a sword to drive unbelievers to continued unbelief through unsolicited confrontation.

37 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:17:00pm

I've come to the conclusion that the global warming stuff is nearly as bad for science as the I.D. stuff. I'm working my way through that post on the Bishop Hill blog...the shenanigans that have gone on around this issue are seriously damaging to scientific credibility.

38 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:17:52pm

re: #10 calcajun


No joke, Maynard. I meant that these families and schools use specific programs and texts put out by different publishers. Does anyone know the name of the text and/or program.

In case someone hasn't beat me to it already, here is the book I found by looking at one of the links provided in the post.

39 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:17:54pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

I think that's a different case than the UC case, but it will be interesting to see if the high schools appeal this decision.

40 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:19:57pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

I read it and it does not name the Abeka books themselves, just the Bob Jones text and that's a little disturbing.

Playing devil's advocate, if the article linked portion of the substantive texts which the UC Regents rejected, that is one thing. But, to quote the introduction, which is worded to act to an agnostic or a humanist like a red flag to a bull, is something else.

What more, the article states:

The rejected courses covered the academic spectrum, with English, history, and science classes all failing to meet UC's scrutiny. The common element in the rejected courses was that they did not actually teach the material that UC requires from incoming students. Instead, the rejected courses taught a radically wrong "Christian perspective".

I can understand the science debate. What is troubling is the history and English portions. What were the offensive portions of those terxtbooks. Does anyone know where outside of Westlaw and ordering the briefs from the US Federal Court, the briefs might be available.

41 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:21:07pm

re: #37 Tigger2005

I've come to the conclusion that the global warming stuff is nearly as bad for science as the I.D. stuff. I'm working my way through that post on the Bishop Hill blog...the shenanigans that have gone on around this issue are seriously damaging to scientific credibility.

Which is, of course, the reason that we really like to keep politics out of science.

42 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:21:45pm

re: #38 Slumbering Behemoth
Found it already, thanks. Still would like to know what history and English texts failed to meet UC standards.

43 LEGION  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:21:51pm

Hamas' Christian convert: I've left a society that sanctifies terror.
A moment before beginning his supper, Masab, son of West Bank Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef, glances at the friend who has accompanied him to the restaurant where we met. They whisper a few words and then say grace, thanking God and Jesus for putting food on their plates.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Holy Cow!

44 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:22:34pm

re: #40 calcajun

Did you see Killgore's link in #24?

45 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:23:15pm

re: #30 Thanos

The Christian schools hired Dr. Behe (for $20,000) as an expert in "biology and physics."

...wow, what a shocker... I wonder if Dr. Behe would ever do something like that for free? Probably happen on the same day evil, alien monkeys fly outta my butt.

46 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:23:19pm

re: #43 LEGION

Hamas' Christian convert: I've left a society that sanctifies terror.
A moment before beginning his supper, Masab, son of West Bank Hamas leader Sheikh Hassan Yousef, glances at the friend who has accompanied him to the restaurant where we met. They whisper a few words and then say grace, thanking God and Jesus for putting food on their plates.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Holy Cow!

That's Hinduism--the guy's a Christian. Come on. Also, if he had not relocated to So Cal, he would not be long for this world.

47 LEGION  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:23:52pm

[Link: www.anncoulter.com...]

EVEN BY TRIAL LAWYER STANDARDS, EDWARDS A REAL SLEAZEBAG

Ann has another great column ripping Johnny boy and Kennedy- a must read!

48 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:27:50pm

re: #39 Sharmuta

Ah, you're right. That is a different case.

49 LEGION  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:27:55pm

re: #46 calcajun

Be quiet you. I say 'Holy Cow' as a curse alternative in memory of the great NY Yankees ballplayer and announcer Phil Rizzuto. Whatareyou- another damn foreigner? Nuttin to do with hindus. And I read the article too- yes- he leaves SoCal he is dead meat. If he stays and they find him- he is doomed anyway- anywhere- anyhow.

50 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:28:05pm

re: #3 BignJames

I took AP biology many years ago...we disected cats.

WHAT?

51 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:28:09pm

re: #47 LEGION

[Link: www.anncoulter.com...]

EVEN BY TRIAL LAWYER STANDARDS, EDWARDS A REAL SLEAZEBAG

Ann has another great column ripping Johnny boy and Kennedy- a must read!

Any man who needs a woman's compact to check his coif is beyond vain.

52 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:28:28pm

I think the fact remains that the UC system has the right to determine what standards they can use to allow students into their universities. The Christian schools do not have the right to demand the UC change it's guidelines if the guidelines are Constitutionally sound- which the judge determined they were.

53 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:29:45pm

Now, if we can only get college professors to stop teaching irrational and discredited economic theories.

54 BignJames  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:29:47pm

re: #50 FrogMarch


Frogs were first year biology.

55 LEGION  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:30:24pm

re: #51 calcajun

Now you are cooking with gas! You are on the mark. So Clinton gets to talk about Kennedy at the demo-RAT convention but Edwards is banned? HUH?

56 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:30:51pm

re: #53 Tigger2005

Now, if we can only get college professors to stop teaching irrational and discredited economic theories.

Seriously.

57 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:31:14pm

re: #49 LEGION

Be quiet you. I say 'Holy Cow' as a curse alternative in memory of the great NY Yankees ballplayer and announcer Phil Rizzuto. Whatareyou- another damn foreigner? Nuttin to do with hindus. And I read the article too- yes- he leaves SoCal he is dead meat. If he stays and they find him- he is doomed anyway- anywhere- anyhow.

"Phil Rizutto"? That phrase, my friend was coined by Harry Caray

58 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:32:17pm

re: #55 LEGION

Now you are cooking with gas! You are on the mark. So Clinton gets to talk about Kennedy at the demo-RAT convention but Edwards is banned? HUH?

That's right. Bill was never stupid enough to sire a bastard. Edwards, on the other hand...

59 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:32:23pm

re: #53 Tigger2005

Now, if we can only get college professors to stop teaching irrational and discredited economic theories.

And irrational and discredited political theories.

60 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:32:31pm

What's up with trying to divert this thread into other topics?

61 FrogMarch  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:32:31pm

re: #54 BignJames

Frogs were first year biology.

I like frogs. dissected one myself in HS. Cats? I find that very disturbing. I hope they were dead anyway.

62 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:33:06pm

re: #53 Tigger2005

Now, if we can only get college professors to stop teaching irrational and discredited economic theories.

"Now go do that voodoo (economics) that you do SO WELL!"

63 RememberSekhmet?  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:33:30pm

If I may be so blunt:

One person and a little faith can move mountains. But you don't get that faith by sticking your head in the sand and rejecting everything not mentioned in a book written when ones own ancestors were wearing furs and throwing stone spears at one another (at least on this side of the Atlantic---on the other side, it was furs and bronze spears).

Faith is knowing that even in adversity, you will never face it alone. The same force that created the universe is standing right next to you, in your heart, and if you just hold on to that, you can get through anything. How is creation science or revisionist history supposed to give that faith to you?

If you don't understand that God loves you, and is caring for you this very second, and need to fetishize some ancient book, that's not faith. Scriptures and teachings of any sort are meant to be read and understood, not waved in front of scary things to make them go away. If that's your relationship with God, please exchange your scriptures for chicken bones. They might work better for you.

64 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:33:38pm

re: #49 LEGION

Be quiet you. I say 'Holy Cow' as a curse alternative in memory of the great NY Yankees ballplayer and announcer Phil Rizzuto. Whatareyou- another damn foreigner? Nuttin to do with hindus. And I read the article too- yes- he leaves SoCal he is dead meat. If he stays and they find him- he is doomed anyway- anywhere- anyhow.

He's not exactly hiding. The first story I read about him identified the City he lives in and the Church he attends, which I won't repeat here, but I could find him quickly enough if I wanted.

65 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:33:43pm

re: #51 calcajun

re: #47 LEGION

[Link: [Link: www.anncoulter.com...]...]

EVEN BY TRIAL LAWYER STANDARDS, EDWARDS A REAL SLEAZEBAG

Ann has another great column ripping Johnny boy and Kennedy- a must read!

Any man who needs a woman's compact to check his coif is beyond vain.


Agreed! And any woman who needs a compact to check her adam's apple is...wait, what?!?

66 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:35:29pm

re: #60 Charles

Fine. Spoil our fun. Charles, I suppose you wouldn't know what the historical and English textbooks with which the Regents took umbrage? The links don't help.

67 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:37:51pm

re: #66 calcajun

Maybe these:

[Link: www.bjupress.com...]

68 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:38:29pm

I've wondered recently about the overall impact these teachings may have on these children in the future in that when these kids are exposed to the truth, might it not backfire on their previous teachers and even their parents for these kids to realize they've basically been lied to? So I wonder if this is more damaging to these kids beyond just their education.

69 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:38:52pm

re: #64 CyanSnowHawk

He's not exactly hiding. The first story I read about him identified the City he lives in and the Church he attends, which I won't repeat here, but I could find him quickly enough if I wanted.

No. Per some articles, he is in So Cal, because the longevity of apostates ain't so great in Syria. In fact, I think that dad might have bought him the plane ticket here. He will be fine; there's little chance that some random fanatic will hunt him down. But, there's always the chance that one of Dad's political enemies might come after him.

70 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:39:54pm

re: #66 calcajun

Fine. Spoil our fun. Charles, I suppose you wouldn't know what the historical and English textbooks with which the Regents took umbrage? The links don't help.

I thought that was interesting. Here's my guess:

The historical textbook was the Bible, and only the Bible.

The English textbook claimed that the English language originated when God confused the language at the Tower of Babel. It also used King James English, because that's the language God wrote the Bible in.

71 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:40:37pm

Uh, oh. Going OT seems to be on shaky ground, now. Be vewwwy careful. ;)

72 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:41:10pm

Look at this book:

[Link: www.bjupress.com...]

Money quote:

"The
text also presents Christian positions on biotechnology, abortion, evolution, homosexuality, ecology, disease,
and drugs."

73 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:41:23pm

re: #63 RememberSekhmet?

If you don't understand that God loves you, and is caring for you this very second, and need to fetishize some ancient book, that's not faith. Scriptures and teachings of any sort are meant to be read and understood, not waved in front of scary things to make them go away. If that's your relationship with God, please exchange your scriptures for chicken bones. They might work better for you.


Love the avatar RS.

So you interpret how to handle your faith along one path, and these others do so differently. Ridiculing their path is hardly a way to win converts.

74 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:42:02pm

re: #71 Cartman

Uh, oh. Going OT seems to be on shaky ground, now. Be vewwwy careful. ;)

Uh, no. Sometimes it's pretty obvious what's going on, though.

75 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:42:10pm
"Both vessels are running 15 to 20 minutes behind schedule. We apologize for any incontinence this may cause you."

Alert message sent out by WA State Ferry system.

76 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:42:54pm

re: #74 Charles

Uh, no. Sometimes it's pretty obvious what's going on, though.


If the Georgian conflict goes nuclear, you CAN go off topic!

77 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:42:58pm

re: #67 Basho

Thanks, but these are still the science texts. The history texts are what I want to see.

If there is a curriculum which Calvary and many home schoolers would use that many here would agree with, it would be a traditional US and world history course. If anything, I think the UC system might not like some of its potential students not have gone through the social re-engineering being taught in many public schools these days.

78 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:43:12pm

re: #68 Sharmuta


I've wondered recently about the overall impact these teachings may have on these children in the future in that when these kids are exposed to the truth, might it not backfire on their previous teachers and even their parents for these kids to realize they've basically been lied to? So I wonder if this is more damaging to these kids beyond just their education.

I don't remember exactly what it was like to discover that all the adults in my life were lying to me about Santa Claus, but I know it wasn't a good feeling.

79 subguyss  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:43:21pm

I went to a private Catholic HS for four years. We had Brothers who taught our theology classes. The Brothers made it a point that the numbers and stories written in the bible, particularly the Old Testament, were symbolic. Certain numbers were used to represent certain things the writers were trying to get across. The stories were not literal truth but symbolism to get a point through.

Why can't some of these fundamentalists come to grips with the fact that, if the Bible were literally true, either humanity would have been extinct after Cane died (after all, who would he have had kids with) or if, like some interpretations of the bible say, Adam and Eve had many other children after Cain and Able, then the bible endorses incest!

80 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:43:24pm

re: #66 calcajun

I liked to some of the rejected courses and text books upthread for you. You can continue to ignore it if you want but don't say you haven't been given the information.

81 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:44:32pm

re: #70 Tigger2005

I may have missed that. Is that actually set forth in the article? I doubt seriously that Calvary would be that dogmatic.

82 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:44:37pm

re: #71 Cartman

Missing a sarc tag there? Don't feed into paranoia.

83 Luigi  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:44:47pm

Today was the day that immortality began to become a reality. The so-called transhumanist ideal is for humans to use biotechnology to circumvent the frailties of the flesh: To upload themselves into something a little more permanently renewable than this mortal coil.

British and American scientists have uploaded parts of a mammalian brain into the control module of a little robot. The robot thinks. Therefore it is.

[Link: technology.newscientist.com...]

84 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:44:55pm

re: #77 calcajun

Thanks, but these are still the science texts. The history texts are what I want to see.


See #42

85 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:02pm

re: #79 subguyss

I went to a private Catholic HS for four years. We had Brothers who taught our theology classes. The Brothers made it a point that the numbers and stories written in the bible, particularly the Old Testament, were symbolic. Certain numbers were used to represent certain things the writers were trying to get across. The stories were not literal truth but symbolism to get a point through.

That's exactly what I was taught in Catholic school. We seem to have taken more than a few steps backward in this country.

86 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:08pm

re: #77 calcajun

Thanks, but these are still the science texts. The history texts are what I want to see.

If there is a curriculum which Calvary and many home schoolers would use that many here would agree with, it would be a traditional US and world history course. If anything, I think the UC system might not like some of its potential students not have gone through the social re-engineering being taught in many public schools these days.

[Link: www.bjupress.com...]

"Uncover the history of our nation through this comprehensive survey rich in Christian insight. "

87 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:19pm

re: #74 Charles

Didn't mean to be critical. Actually, I see a lot of OT lately, way to early in some topics. I've been guilty of it myself, but am working on it.

88 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:29pm

re: #69 calcajun

No. Per some articles, he is in So Cal, because the longevity of apostates ain't so great in Syria. In fact, I think that dad might have bought him the plane ticket here. He will be fine; there's little chance that some random fanatic will hunt him down. But, there's always the chance that one of Dad's political enemies might come after him.

True, but I think an unlikely eventuality. Although gaining a higher profile, combined with his Father's rising status might increase the odds on that. If this really gets big, he may have to hide.

89 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:45:58pm

re: #66 calcajun

Fine. Spoil our fun. Charles, I suppose you wouldn't know what the historical and English textbooks with which the Regents took umbrage? The links don't help.

Read this page from links above...
Saved you a few clicks.

90 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:46:01pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

I must have missed your post. All I have been seeing is the science text books. Thanks

91 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:46:33pm

re: #68 Sharmuta

I've wondered recently about the overall impact these teachings may have on these children in the future in that when these kids are exposed to the truth, might it not backfire on their previous teachers and even their parents for these kids to realize they've basically been lied to? So I wonder if this is more damaging to these kids beyond just their education.

Dawkins calls it child abuse, in a general sense. Maybe he has a point.

92 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:47:50pm

re: #77 calcajun

Thanks, but these are still the science texts. The history texts are what I want to see.

If there is a curriculum which Calvary and many home schoolers would use that many here would agree with, it would be a traditional US and world history course. If anything, I think the UC system might not like some of its potential students not have gone through the social re-engineering being taught in many public schools these days.

I think that's nonsense- other private and religious schools are not having this issue.

93 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:48:18pm

re: #89 jcm

Thanks, but that is--unless I am missing something-- just the biology book.

94 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:48:50pm

re: #93 calcajun

Did you read the link in #24?

95 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:48:51pm

re: #82 Slumbering Behemoth

Missing a sarc tag there? Don't feed into paranoia.

I'm far from paranoid. I leave that shit to leftist wackos. See my #87.

96 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:48:57pm

re: #93 calcajun

Look at #86. Enough with the books already.

97 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:49:34pm

WorldNetDaily's recent article on this case shows why I don't link to them. This is an incredibly dishonest summation, intended to drum up Christian outrage:

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]

98 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:49:52pm

re: #79 subguyss

I went to a private Catholic HS for four years. We had Brothers who taught our theology classes. The Brothers made it a point that the numbers and stories written in the bible, particularly the Old Testament, were symbolic. Certain numbers were used to represent certain things the writers were trying to get across. The stories were not literal truth but symbolism to get a point through.

I love the Biblical numbers. Seven, of course, represents completion. Six, therefore, represents incompletion, or unwholeness. Small wonder 666 is used to represent the Devil (saying something 3X was meaningful, as when Peter denies Jesus 3 times and later affirmed Jesus three times).

The Tribes of Israel numbered 12. Some have connected this to the twelve signs of the zodiac. The disciples numbered 12. The elect in heaven numbered 144,000, a multiple of twelve.

40, a very important number, representing "the fullness of time." The Israelis wandered in the desert 40 years. Moses, Elijah, and Jesus fasted for 40 days.

When all this is taken literally, the symbolism is missed.

99 RememberSekhmet?  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:49:52pm

I'll be back soon. Need Tupperware for the remains of dinner

100 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:50:37pm

re: #26 Sharmuta

But how will World Net Daily spin this?

That made me LOL :)

101 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:50:54pm

re: #81 calcajun

I may have missed that. Is that actually set forth in the article? I doubt seriously that Calvary would be that dogmatic.

LOL was joke! I did say "here's my guess."

102 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:51:56pm

re: #68 Sharmuta

I've wondered recently about the overall impact these teachings may have on these children in the future in that when these kids are exposed to the truth, might it not backfire on their previous teachers and even their parents for these kids to realize they've basically been lied to? So I wonder if this is more damaging to these kids beyond just their education.

That happened to me a few times. I wanted to be Christian but I kept running into the types who said, to be Christian you had to believe [long list of implausibilities, ranging from a worldwide Flood to Isaiah's "prophecy" about Cyrus].

I am Christian now, not because I believe all of it now, but because the Church Tradition forces us to concentrate on Jesus and good works, not on blind obedience to detail. (This is a Catholic view, and I am Catholic; but thinking Protestants are able to appreciate the Church Tradition too. Tertullian, for instance, is far more a Protestant saint than a Catholic one. The Jews also have a "talmudic" approach to the Bible which also takes account of their own Tradition; fundamentalist Jews are "Karaites" don't speak for mainline Jews, IIRC)

103 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:52:08pm

re: #79 subguyss

I went to a private Catholic HS for four years. We had Brothers who taught our theology classes. The Brothers made it a point that the numbers and stories written in the bible, particularly the Old Testament, were symbolic. Certain numbers were used to represent certain things the writers were trying to get across. The stories were not literal truth but symbolism to get a point through.

That is the present view, of some, but if these were meant to be symbolisms would not the original writers have given some indication that that is how they were to be read?

For what it is worth, we may consider there to be symbolism, but I have my doubts that the actual writers did so.

104 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:52:17pm
105 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:53:14pm

re: #78 Slumbering Behemoth

I personally think there's something to be said for that. I don't like lying to children.

re: #91 Naso Tang

It does cause me to wonder. Perhaps he does have a point.

106 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:53:25pm

re: #97 Charles

Heh, I guess one can't even parody those guys.

107 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:54:15pm

Apply at Oral Roberts or Biloa U?

Just sayin'

108 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:54:58pm

re: #103 Naso Tang

That is the present view, of some, but if these were meant to be symbolisms would not the original writers have given some indication that that is how they were to be read?

For what it is worth, we may consider there to be symbolism, but I have my doubts that the actual writers did so.

The symbolism was understood. People of the time knew what it meant, they didn't have to have it spelled out for them. Just like we have symbols today and don't have to have them spelled out to us every time we see them.

109 rawmuse  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:55:20pm

re: #104 buzzsawmonkey

I'm surprised that Tupperware hasn't branched out into casual clothing. "Tupperwear" would seem to be a logical next step.

I think Devo did that already, in the late 70's.

110 fried spam  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:55:30pm

re: #6 calcajun

Any indication what curriculum the parents had used that was rejected by the UC system?

I don't know that, but it's interesting that the current website for secondary school has a blurb about AP biology. They talk about AP biology, with requirements to read the Cliff notes before school.

The interesting thing is that the cliff notes don't shy away from evolution.

111 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:55:58pm

re: #93 calcajun

Thanks, but that is--unless I am missing something-- just the biology book.

You don't see a problem with this?

The Christian must evaluate the source of a statement. Scienitific statements must be based on observation or else they are mere guesses. There is nothing wrong with a guess, as long as it is clearly labed as a guess or belief. But Christians must disregard those guesses and beliefs that contradict the Bible.

I'm a Christian, I have a huge problem with that statement.

112 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:56:06pm

I stayed at a Holidy In Express last night. Had a real freaky dream.

113 subguyss  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:56:56pm

re: #104 buzzsawmonkey

I'm surprised that Tupperware hasn't branched out into casual clothing. "Tupperwear" would seem to be a logical next step.

Okay, that made me laugh.

114 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:01pm

Has Putin devolved into a fucking scorpion?

115 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:11pm

Aw, man.

First silver for Phelps.

116 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:32pm

My brother attended Christian schools from fourth grade all the way through High School graduation. He had no problems whatsoever gaining admission into more than one "secular" college to obtain his master's degree.

Admission standards are nothing new in the UC system, or any other state university system. That political, special interest groups would try to twist this into an issue of religious oppression is disgusting and deplorable. It is an insult to oh so many groups who have suffered (and in some areas of the world, still suffer) real life oppression, religious or otherwise.

117 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:38pm

Kidding.

118 Mr Pancakes  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:58:52pm

re: #109 rawmuse

I think Devo did that already, in the late 70's.

Thought that was Rubbermaid

119 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:59:18pm

re: #117 Cognito

GAH! You got me.

120 fried spam  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:59:34pm

re: #103 Naso Tang

If one says today "it's raining cats and dogs", do you call the SPCA?

;>

One of the most prevalent examples of a colloquialism is 'forty days and forty nights'. As I understand it, that meant, at the time, no one is really quite sure how long of a time it was.

121 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 6:59:34pm

So I wonder what happens when all the US (Saudi-funded) madrassah graduates enter college.

I kind of expect UC to accept their Anti-Semitic credits fully.

122 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:01:15pm

re: #108 Tigger2005

The symbolism was understood. People of the time knew what it meant, they didn't have to have it spelled out for them. Just like we have symbols today and don't have to have them spelled out to us every time we see them.

You say that as if you know. I'm not an expert on biblical literature, but I don't recall seeing independent critiques from those times explaining that fact, and I have read enough in my life to be accustomed to symbolism being quite explicitly or implicitly indicated by most writers.

We have enough simple examples right here of comments being misunderstood by the simple omission of a "/", to conclude that most readers of supposedly symbolic stories will read them first as literal and only after explanation understand the symbolism intended.

I suppose you are suggesting that peoples in the past were more intelligent, educated and insightful than those of today?

123 neocon hippie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:01:42pm

re: #37 Tigger2005

Indeed. Both ID and global warming hysteria are junk science, whose purpose and effect is to undermine rational scientific inquiry and ultimately, knowledge itself. The former coming from a literalist Christian persepctive, the other from a hybrid of Gaia worship and postmodernist thought.

124 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:01:46pm

WHAT IN THE WIDE, WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS IS GOIN' ON HERE?

125 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:01:55pm

re: #66 calcajun

Fine. Spoil our fun. Charles, I suppose you wouldn't know what the historical and English textbooks with which the Regents took umbrage? The links don't help.

It might be helpful for you to examine the "rational educational standards" of Gary Nash, one of the leading lights of the UC system and the chief arbiter of proper history courses in that state.

Californians may remember him from the mid 1990's, when he tried to impose his United States History Document onto not just California, but the entire country, under the aegis of the National Ed Standards Act and Goals 2000 Ed bill. (The effort was finally stopped, but not until Nancy Kasselbaum led a drive to squelch it in the Senate.)

I do not have the document itself at hand, but I still have some papers re this, including a fine description of Gary Nash's standards for American history education given by the Textbook League in 1994 or 1995.

"The US Hist Document dealt in tribalism, victimism, anti-intellectualism, and fake anthropology, and was animated by a stark animosity toward Europeans and towards the US itself. ....It emphasizes American follies and failures, minimizes American successes, and buries anything that did not conform to multi-cult doctrines and tastes....................It eradicated science and medicine from American history, ignored or trivialized the effects of science and technology on American life, and had hidden our country's identity as the foremost scientific and technological power of the 20th century................all a reflection of the multi-cult's general aversion to intellectuality and their specific hostility toward natural science, an intellectual system created by white Europeans."

Ah yes. Gary Nash will defend us from the forces of unreason!

126 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:02:05pm

re: #114 MandyManners

Has Putin devolved into a fucking scorpion?

Always was, after all, he is Russian.

127 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:02:10pm

re: #119 Basho

GAH! You got me.

I'm actually sort of glad to know I'm not the only one wound up over this.

Somehow the significance of it -- being in China, the aggression from Russia, the question of American skill -- seems higher than I ever expected.

128 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:02:10pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

129 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:03:12pm

re: #124 Occasional Reader

WHAT IN THE WIDE, WIDE WORLD OF SPORTS IS GOIN' ON HERE?

I don't know why, but that absolutely cracked me up.

Memories of Chris Farley, I think.

130 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:04:02pm
131 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:04:23pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

So I wonder what happens when all the US (Saudi-funded) madrassah graduates enter college.

I kind of expect UC to accept their Anti-Semitic credits fully.

What about their notions of Islamic-based creationism?

132 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:04:56pm

re: #105 Sharmuta

I personally think there's something to be said for that. I don't like lying to children.

I have a friend that has taught all of his children, from day one, there is no Santa, no Easter Bunny, no Tooth Fairy, etc. He tells them from the start that Christmas is about Jesus, Easter is about Jesus, and the Tooth Fairy is just some silly BS.

Some think this is harsh, I think it is a good start at building a bond of trust.

133 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:00pm

re: #77 calcajun

I think you can rest assured that any high school using Zinn's People's History of the United States won't run into trouble w/ the UC system.

134 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:36pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

Exactly- if a Christian school could get a University system to change their standards, it would open the floodgates to every other group to whine about persecution and unfair standards. Either we accept that there are standards or we accept chaos.

135 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:39pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

There seems to be a theory of Islamic-Creationist-Russo conspiracy emerging, here.

Seems far more likely to me that there are some tremendously disparate people in the world who happen to have something in common.

136 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:48pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

Oh, I'm sure they are, and I am sure they would.

They don't need it, though.

The politically-correct school systems like UC will roll over and play "diverse" on command.

137 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:05:58pm
138 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:06:17pm

re: #123 neocon hippie

Indeed. Both ID and global warming hysteria are junk science, whose purpose and effect is to undermine rational scientific inquiry and ultimately, knowledge itself. The former coming from a literalist Christian persepctive, the other from a hybrid of Gaia worship and postmodernist thought.

Global warming is not junk science, but it is debatable regarding the degree to which we need to beat ourselves up about it.

ID is however junk science.

It is not good form to throw in an alleged comparison with a known piece of junk, to make a supposedly equivalent statement about something unrelated.

139 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:07:20pm

re: #132 Slumbering Behemoth

You know, I have no problem with the runny facade about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, etc.

Literally, this has been a staple of Christmas for decades upon decades.

If it was such a problem, I think we would have more problems with adults than we do today.

140 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:07:34pm

re: #133 wolfie

I think you can rest assured that any high school using Zinn's People's History of the United States won't run into trouble w/ the UC system.

I say that conservatives should use this as a precedent to raise hell against that very thing.

141 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:08:22pm

re: #86 Basho

Thanks--that's what I was looking for. Is this the rejected textbook?

I read the notes to the teacher and, frankly, I don't know of many teachers who would try to take that approach. Hell, the Jesuits had me for 12 years and I was never asked to try and spot God's providence in any act.

The "acid test" is whether or not the substantive history corresponds with what is normally accepted. The conclusions to which the teacher is supposed to lead the class are dubious (and I'm a Christian) but what I saw of the facts appears to fit with generally accepted historical doctrine (with the exception of Columbus and a "round world" view; everyone thought the world was round in his day--including the churchmen)

Obviously, I can't read the entire book. But, I cannot find a critique where the substance was challenged.

Thanks again.

142 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:08:52pm

re: #126 Naso Tang

Always was, after all, he is Russian.

Strange place. Source of conquerers from the git-go.

143 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:08:57pm

re: #91 Naso Tang

Dawkins calls it child abuse, in a general sense. Maybe he has a point.

Yup! Let's round up the kids and send them off to the Isle of Pines!
(Excuse me, I keep forgetting that after the revolution it was renamed the Isle of Youth.)

144 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:09:22pm

re: #131 MandyManners

What about their notions of Islamic-based creationism?

Well, we have a precedent here, don't we? All well and good - they will have to retake Biology. (AND I FULLY SUPPORT THAT-CREATIONISM IS RELIGION, NOT A SCIENCE COURSE)

But their Joo-Hating will be up to snuff. And accepted.

Are we going to keep the kids who have had "apes and pigs" drummed into them from polluting the educational purity gained here?

Hell no we aren't. The bowing and scraping to Islamists is already rampant.

145 rawmuse  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:10:21pm

re: #112 Noam Sayin'
That was a fun game!

146 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:10:45pm

re: #140 Zimriel

I say that conservatives should use this as a precedent to raise hell against that very thing.

Agreed. But unless conservatives cut ties with the fundi-creationists, no one will take them seriously :(

147 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:10:55pm

re: #135 Cognito

Cognito, it would seem that way.

However, the very fact one influential Saudi was able to get a major publisher to not print a book in this country leaves me very concerned anymore.

I am starting to think the are extremely strange bedfellows.

148 rawmuse  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:19pm

re: #118 Mr Pancakes

Thought that was Rubbermaid

Perhaps with some Corningware thrown in as accessories.

149 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:22pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Exactly- if a Christian school could get a University system to change their standards, it would open the floodgates to every other group to whine about persecution and unfair standards. Either we accept that there are standards or we accept chaos.

I guarantee via the magic of PC that UC will accept whatever filth crawls out of a Wahabist "school" in the US or they will get sued and lose, not necessarily in that order.

150 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:27pm

re: #144 OldLineTexan

Well, we have a precedent here, don't we? All well and good - they will have to retake Biology. (AND I FULLY SUPPORT THAT-CREATIONISM IS RELIGION, NOT A SCIENCE COURSE)

But their Joo-Hating will be up to snuff. And accepted.

Are we going to keep the kids who have had "apes and pigs" drummed into them from polluting the educational purity gained here?

Hell no we aren't. The bowing and scraping to Islamists is already rampant.

It probably won't go that far, but you can bet that UC colleges will accept Edward Said and Karen Armstrong as accurate high-school fare.

151 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:48pm

re: #142 MandyManners

Strange place. Source of conquerers from the git-go.

They got their asses conquered from time to time, too. (Tatars, f'rinstance.)

152 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:51pm

re: #142 MandyManners

Strange place. Source of conquerers from the git-go.

They developed their problems after the little Swedes whupped their asses way back when. Trying to get even ever since. Funny thing though, my DNA suggests that's where my genes came from, after Africa of course.

153 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:11:57pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

Now I see it. Thanks.
Can't comment on 'em until I read some of them.

Thanks again.

154 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:12:21pm

re: #141 calcajun

Meh... not sure if it is the exact book. Compare it with #24's link.

155 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:12:22pm

re: #138 Naso Tang

Global warming in the context of Al Gore's presentation is junk science.

Just as much as there are ulterior motives behind this topic, the same exist behind global warming.

Kyoto.

156 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:12:42pm

re: #147 formercorpsman

Cognito, it would seem that way.

However, the very fact one influential Saudi was able to get a major publisher to not print a book in this country leaves me very concerned anymore.

I am starting to think the are extremely strange bedfellows.

I hadn't heard about that. Is there a further detail I could use to search for a story about it?

157 drmark  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:12:44pm

This is a good call by the courts. These schools should have a real biology text /class and present their biblical views in theology classes or philosophy class.
To sue the UC on this really poor form. re: #97 Charles

WorldNetDaily's recent article on this case shows why I don't link to them. This is an incredibly dishonest summation, intended to drum up Christian outrage:

[Link: www.worldnetdaily.com...]


I agree about WND... Pretty average for them.

158 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:13:26pm

re: #143 wolfie

Yup! Let's round up the kids and send them off to the Isle of Pines!
(Excuse me, I keep forgetting that after the revolution it was renamed the Isle of Youth.)

LOL. I think you've used that line before. No doubt I have repeated myself too, but I think not often to the same poster.

159 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:13:52pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Exactly- if a Christian school could get a University system to change their standards, it would open the floodgates to every other group to whine about persecution and unfair standards. Either we accept that there are standards or we accept chaos.

My son attends a Christian school.

Our graduates attend prestigious universities all over this globe.

IT AIN'T THE FAULT OF CHRISTIANS!

160 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:13:55pm

Oh, ha, I see it.

I thought I was on an open thread.

hahaha

161 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:18pm

re: #152 Naso Tang

They developed their problems after the little Swedes whupped their asses way back when. Trying to get even ever since. Funny thing though, my DNA suggests that's where my genes came from, after Africa of course.

I thought the Rus were from Sweden, originally?

162 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:25pm

re: #137 buzzsawmonkey

Wilderness of Zinn.

Turn right at the Gates or Mordor, keep going past Oz, take left at Narnia and then click your heels three times.

163 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:26pm

re: #156 Cognito

Robert O. Collins, Alms for Jihad.

There was also another just this past week, the name escapes me.

Look up Rachel Ehrenfled (sp) as well.

164 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:38pm

re: #120 fried spam

If one says today "it's raining cats and dogs", do you call the SPCA?

;>

One of the most prevalent examples of a colloquialism is 'forty days and forty nights'. As I understand it, that meant, at the time, no one is really quite sure how long of a time it was.

The forty days and forty nights is originally a reference to how long the rain causing the great flood of Noah lasted (Genesis 7:12). Forty in Hebrew literature is a number representing completeness or sufficiency. Thus it is recorded that many of ancient Israel's and Judah's kings lived exactly forty years.

165 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:14:54pm

re: #163 formercorpsman

Robert O. Collins, Alms for Jihad.

There was also another just this past week, the name escapes me.

Look up Rachel Ehrenfled (sp) as well.

Hey, thanks.

166 faraway  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:15:07pm

Another OT, but the NYT now has another "conservative gadfly" Jerome R. Corsi.
NYT article
Dont worry, it's in the first line, so you don't have to read the whole thing.

Charles is not the only gadfly this week.

167 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:15:39pm

re: #155 formercorpsman

Kyoto.

Roll Over politics, but nevertheless not automatically junk science.

168 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:15:45pm

re: #136 OldLineTexan

Oh, I'm sure they are, and I am sure they would.

They don't need it, though.

The politically-correct school systems like UC will roll over and play "diverse" on command.

I think it's a dangerous precedent to set if the courts were to allow special interests to dictate state academic standards. The standards meet Constitutional requirements, the high schools desired standards don't. The court did the right thing- it protected the Constitution.

169 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:15:49pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

To be honest Killgore, I would venture to say that they are getting much more help from the leftist end of that spectrum in academia.

170 jorline  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:16:05pm

re: #112 Noam Sayin'

I stayed at a Holidy In Express last night. Had a real freaky dream.

I know I'm getting older...becoming a geek, I did the whole exercise...lol

After eight knee surgeries this stuff interest me.

171 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:16:28pm

re: #168 Sharmuta

I think it's a dangerous precedent to set if the courts were to allow special interests to dictate state academic standards. The standards meet Constitutional requirements, the high schools desired standards don't. The court did the right thing- it protected the Constitution.

Yes.

And when it comes to Islamist miseducation, they will cave.

172 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:16:34pm

re: #116 Slumbering Behemoth

My brother attended Christian schools from fourth grade all the way through High School graduation. He had no problems whatsoever gaining admission into more than one "secular" college to obtain his master's degree.

Admission standards are nothing new in the UC system, or any other state university system. That political, special interest groups would try to twist this into an issue of religious oppression is disgusting and deplorable. It is an insult to oh so many groups who have suffered (and in some areas of the world, still suffer) real life oppression, religious or otherwise.


Perhaps some Californians can help me with this. (?)

If you look at UC standards, you will see that the top 4% of students in any graduating class from an accredited school are automatically admitted. I am going to guess that this silly "standard" was instituted to allow for affirmative action by stealth. The top 4% at a lousy school teach "people's history" and ebonics get in. Period.
It's okay for them to have a reserve seat, so to speak. And you can bet they won't have their schools held to any standard beyond political correctness.

173 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:17:32pm

re: #121 OldLineTexan

So I wonder what happens when all the US (Saudi-funded) madrassah graduates enter college.

I kind of expect UC to accept their Anti-Semitic credits fully.

BINGO !
And their creationism will be okay, too. Count on it.

174 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:17:36pm

re: #125 wolfie

Thanks. He sounds like Anthony Zerbe's character from "The Omega Man"

175 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:17:45pm

re: #144 OldLineTexan

Well, we have a precedent here, don't we? All well and good - they will have to retake Biology. (AND I FULLY SUPPORT THAT-CREATIONISM IS RELIGION, NOT A SCIENCE COURSE)

But their Joo-Hating will be up to snuff. And accepted.

Are we going to keep the kids who have had "apes and pigs" drummed into them from polluting the educational purity gained here?

Hell no we aren't. The bowing and scraping to Islamists is already rampant.

Let me know when madrassa-educated students apply/are accepted into the American college system...and survive.

NOT EVERYONE IN HIGHER EDUCATION IS A COMPLETE DUMB-FUCK OR A JEW-HATING BASTARD.

176 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:18:04pm
177 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:18:11pm

re: #167 Naso Tang

It has become patently obvious to me, the theory behind has had quite a few holes blown in it by more than well established professionals.

Now if we really want to speak the truth, the argument becomes is it man made?

178 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:18:20pm

re: #159 MandyManners

My son attends a Christian school.

There are Christian schools that teach then pray and there are Christian schools that pray then teach, in that order of priority.

179 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:18:29pm

re: #166 faraway

Corsi, while exposing Obama in his latest book is himself subject to further scrutiny. He's a troofer.

180 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:19:41pm

re: #151 Occasional Reader

They got their asses conquered from time to time, too. (Tatars, f'rinstance.)

Well, they absorbed them quite well.

Oh, goodness.

BIG TATAR IS RIPPING US OFF.

181 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:19:53pm

re: #176 buzzsawmonkey

Actually, you could be prophetic with an analysis like that. I was trying to be cute, though.

182 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:19:59pm

re: #159 MandyManners

These Christian schools were trying to force the state to change their admission standards for their universities. So- I think you misread me there- I don't think the problem is most Christians, the problem is with a handful who want to change the rules to suit their agenda.

183 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:20:30pm

re: #152 Naso Tang

They developed their problems after the little Swedes whupped their asses way back when. Trying to get even ever since. Funny thing though, my DNA suggests that's where my genes came from, after Africa of course.

I still wonder about the Finnish influence in Hungary.

184 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:21:05pm

re: #128 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Islamists are watching this case (and others closely). They'll be more than happy to have Christians do their dirty work for them.

They won't have any work to do, KT.
Unless they use a 1950's style patriotic textbook on US history.

Pity it so unlikely.
What would Gary Nash do?

185 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:22:18pm

re: #175 MandyManners

Let me know when madrassa-educated students apply/are accepted into the American college system...and survive.

Will do.


NOT EVERYONE IN HIGHER EDUCATION IS A COMPLETE DUMB-FUCK OR A JEW-HATING BASTARD.

If you can show me where I wrote that, I will retract it.

I'll be using the footbath in the Muslim-only meditation room that used to be a student center if you need me.

186 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:22:39pm

re: #139 formercorpsman

You know, I have no problem with the runny facade about Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, etc.

Literally, this has been a staple of Christmas for decades upon decades.

If it was such a problem, I think we would have more problems with adults than we do today.

"Santa Claus" has been a figure that has altered through time, not initially of Christian origins or connected to Christmas.

And no, it's not such a huge problem. At least no more of a problem than telling any sort of little white lie to gullible children. I just think honesty is a better course for building bonds of trust, especially with kids.

And no, I do not mean tell them the unvarnished truth about everything. Just don't lie.

187 Lynn B.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:05pm
The case is not over yet, however: the plaintiffs have appealed the ruling to the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals.

Good luck with that.

188 AIrdale  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:30pm

Wonder how many courses taught by La Raza schools and the local madrassas are not acredited? We are talking about California!

189 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:32pm

re: #119 Basho

GAH! You got me.

He got me, too.

Phelps is magnificent.

190 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:34pm

re: #178 Naso Tang

There are Christian schools that teach then pray and there are Christian schools that pray then teach, in that order of priority.

The Kid's school prays. Then, it teaches.

Got a problem with that?

191 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:23:34pm
192 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:24:16pm

re: #180 MandyManners

Well, they absorbed them quite well.

Oh, goodness.

BIG TATAR IS RIPPING US OFF.

Does Crest still offer Tatar control?

193 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:25:20pm

re: #177 formercorpsman

It has become patently obvious to me, the theory behind has had quite a few holes blown in it by more than well established professionals.

So, allegedly, has evolution. Which professionals' side are you on that?


Now if we really want to speak the truth, the argument becomes is it man made?

Once upon a time the buffalo and Passenger Pigeon were thought numerous enough to feed and clothe a nation.

When I was young there were perhaps 3 billion people on the planet and the fishing was glorious and the reefs were endless and most of the planet was safe to travel.

If you want to say "man" doesn't make a difference, wait.

194 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:00pm

re: #183 MandyManners

I still wonder about the Finnish influence in Hungary.

That went right over my head.

195 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:07pm

re: #180 MandyManners

Well, they absorbed them quite well.

Oh, goodness.

BIG TATAR IS RIPPING US OFF.

Don't get saucy with us, Tatars!

196 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:12pm

re: #182 Sharmuta

These Christian schools were trying to force the state to change their admission standards for their universities. So- I think you misread me there- I don't think the problem is most Christians, the problem is with a handful who want to change the rules to suit their agenda.

Otay.

197 jcm  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:22pm

re: #192 OldLineTexan

Does Crest still offer Tatar control?

You mean all Eurasia need 9 centuries ago was Crest?

198 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:26:34pm
199 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:27:03pm

re: #186 Slumbering Behemoth

I agree with you for the most part.

Finding out Santa was not real was a little sad for me, but by the time my parents fessed up, I already had doubts from other kids who knew.

It would just seem to me, if this was responsible for the major damage some people are afraid of, it would have manifested by now.

200 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:27:52pm

re: #185 OldLineTexan

If you can show me where I wrote that, I will retract it.

I'll be using the footbath in the Muslim-only meditation room that used to be a student center if you need me.

*sigh*

I apologize for venting my spleen, OLT.

201 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:27:57pm

re: #190 MandyManners

The Kid's school prays. Then, it teaches.

Got a problem with that?

I meant priority, not sequence, and by priority I didn't mean spiritual significance.

Sheesh. Do I have to explain everything.

202 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:28:00pm

re: #197 jcm

You mean all Eurasia need 9 centuries ago was Crest?

Proper dental hygiene - Mom told you!

203 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:28:35pm

re: #188 AIrdale

Excellent point.

204 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:04pm

re: #185 OldLineTexan

It's unfortunate the ACLU or any other group isn't working on cases like tax payer funded footbaths in schools, but if these were being taken to court, I believe the Constitution would eventually win. And I think islamic creationism would lose too just as it's Christian counterpart has. But if we want to make sure the legal jihad is stopped, I think we best be prepared to be intellectually honest and unhypocritical. One religion gets special treatment, they all do. This is why our secular traditions should be defended, no matter what our personal religious leanings may want to favor.

205 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:30pm

re: #193 Naso Tang

Thanks for keeping the climate change debate honest :)

206 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:40pm

re: #172 wolfie

If you look at UC standards, you will see that the top 4% of students in any graduating class from an accredited school are automatically admitted. I am going to guess that this silly "standard" was instituted to allow for affirmative action by stealth. The top 4% at a lousy school teach "people's history" and ebonics get in. Period.
It's okay for them to have a reserve seat, so to speak. And you can bet they won't have their schools held to any standard beyond political correctness.

I can't give a 100% answer on that, but I am pretty sure if those schools are not private schools, they are using texts and curricula that have already been vetted by the the UC system to meet their admission standards.

207 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:41pm

re: #122 Naso Tang

You say that as if you know. I'm not an expert on biblical literature, but I don't recall seeing independent critiques from those times explaining that fact, and I have read enough in my life to be accustomed to symbolism being quite explicitly or implicitly indicated by most writers.

We have enough simple examples right here of comments being misunderstood by the simple omission of a "/", to conclude that most readers of supposedly symbolic stories will read them first as literal and only after explanation understand the symbolism intended.

I suppose you are suggesting that peoples in the past were more intelligent, educated and insightful than those of today?

I think you're trying to make the ancient world too much like the modern world. The Roman Empire had a great deal in common with the modern world, but it was still a prescientific and highly superstitious era. Symbols and patterns had powerful meanings. And in a world where few were literate (and there was no TV, no mass communication, no rapid transit, etc.), symbols and patterns were used to convey important religious and cultural and spiritual concepts to the masses and hold the people together. No, I'm not suggesting that people back then were more "intelligent, educated, or insightful," but they lived in their world and this stuff was all around them.

It's certainly likely that most of the "common people" saw the Bible stories as literal, but the repeated symbols and motifs probably spoke to them on a deep level as well. In any case, the Hebrew priests certainly WERE intelligent and well-educated. And I don't think it's just a coincidence that they kept using certain numbers, for example. Seven. Six. Twelve. Forty. Multiples of same. People knew what these numbers meant, not because they had any "special insight," but because it was part of their life.

I studied metaphysical Bible interpretation, and while I certainly considered the possibility that modern interpreters of the Bible were imposing symbolism and meaning where there was none, after a while the repetition of certain numbers and motifs in certain contexts becomes too obvious to dismiss as a complete coincidence. There's nothing mystical or spooky about all this...it's just a case of the Bible writers recycling things, bringing old symbols and motifs forward, making the past relevant to the present.

208 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:29:54pm

re: #200 MandyManners

Not necessary.

209 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:30:20pm

re: #192 OldLineTexan

Does Crest still offer Tatar control?

Beats me. I just work here seven days a week.

210 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:30:33pm

re: #204 Sharmuta

It's unfortunate the ACLU or any other group isn't working on cases like tax payer funded footbaths in schools, but if these were being taken to court, I believe the Constitution would eventually win. And I think islamic creationism would lose too just as it's Christian counterpart has. But if we want to make sure the legal jihad is stopped, I think we best be prepared to be intellectually honest and unhypocritical. One religion gets special treatment, they all do. This is why our secular traditions should be defended, no matter what our personal religious leanings may want to favor.

I don't favor favoring any of them - yet it is happening.

211 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:30:53pm

re: #30 Thanos

The Christian schools hired Dr. Behe (for $20,000) as an expert in "biology and physics."

To quote Derbyshire:

"Helping to defend creationist school boards in federal courts is not the Discovery Institute's game. Their game is to (a) make money from those spurious "textbooks" they put out, and (b) keep creationism in the news so that they don't run out of lecture gigs and wealthy funders. So far as those legal bills are concerned, Discovery Institute policy is: Let the dumb rubes fund their own stupid lawsuits."

212 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:31:01pm

re: #194 Naso Tang

That went right over my head.

Search Finland and Hungary.

213 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:31:32pm

re: #174 calcajun

LOL ! Thanks, calcajun. You seem to be the only person on this thread who even read my post.

But then, you are one of the very few who seem to think English and history "standards" might be problematic.

214 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:31:51pm

re: #195 Occasional Reader

Don't get saucy with us, Tatars!

Mrs. Paul will withdraw her fish-sticks!

215 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:31:59pm
216 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:33:27pm

re: #212 MandyManners

Search Finland and Hungary.

That could take a while.

217 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:33:28pm

re: #193 Naso Tang

Triangulation Naso.

You are putting words in my mouth.

Nice little slight of hand with the evolution dig as well.

Joe Bastardi for one seems pretty credible for my tastes.

Furthermore, if we are going to make comparisons, and examine our topic at hand, why do so many schools not allow equal time from the contrary professional opinion with respect to that subject?

218 mich-again  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:34:44pm

re: #215 buzzsawmonkey

I'm feeling Hungary, and I'm searching the land for some shark's fin soup.

How about Shark Sandwich.

219 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:35:00pm

re: #205 Basho

pom poms?

221 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:35:24pm

re: #218 mich-again

How about Shark Sandwich.

Rubber biscuit.

/bow bow bow

222 Silhouette  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:35:37pm

One of the team that invented tartar control toothpaste came and spoke to my university class. The most remarkable thing to me was that they set out to specifically create tartar control - so this was not a case of "discovery of substance, then find a use," like post-its

223 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:02pm
224 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:23pm

re: #222 Silhouette

One of the team that invented tartar control toothpaste came and spoke to my university class. The most remarkable thing to me was that they set out to specifically create tartar control - so this was not a case of "discovery of substance, then find a use," like post-its

Or cellophane tape.

225 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:34pm

re: #207 Tigger2005

The Roman Empire had a great deal in common with the modern world, but it was still a prescientific and highly superstitious era. Symbols and patterns had powerful meanings. And in a world where few were literate (and there was no TV

Wait, wait, wait... are you sure about that? Not even the really, really old shows, like Dragnet?

226 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:34pm

re: #217 formercorpsman

That subject being man made global warming.

227 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:36:47pm

re: #179 lawhawk

Corsi, while exposing Obama in his latest book is himself subject to further scrutiny. He's a troofer.

I didn't know about the troofer angle, but it doesn't surprise me. He also ripped off a whole lot of material from LGF for his ludicrous, borderline illiterate book about Iran.

228 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:37:32pm

re: #219 formercorpsman

It's rare here, and it bothers me.

229 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:37:44pm

re: #156 Cognito

I hadn't heard about that. Is there a further detail I could use to search for a story about it?

Seek and ye shall find.

Or, use the search function. Whichever works.

Chores call, see 'yall. Later.

230 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:37:45pm

re: #188 AIrdale

Wonder how many courses taught by La Raza schools and the local madrassas are not acredited? We are talking about California!

Don't hold your breath.
Their history will be top of the line!
They will definitely meet the standards of the UC history people.

231 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:37:59pm

re: #225 Occasional Reader

Wait, wait, wait... are you sure about that? Not even the really, really old shows, like Dragnet?

There was a primitive version of Animal Planet, but it involved Christians so it was eventually outlawed.

/

232 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:10pm

re: #215 buzzsawmonkey

I'm feeling Hungary, and I'm searching the land for some shark's fin soup.

233 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:16pm
234 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:24pm

re: #227 Charles

It is interesting how so many of these kinds of issues cross paths, to say nothing of how some people always seem to turn up in the discussion as players.

235 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:41pm

re: #227 Charles

I didn't know about the troofer angle, but it doesn't surprise me. He also ripped off a whole lot of material from LGF for his ludicrous, borderline illiterate book about Iran.

Damn, every idea I have to make a buck has already been taken...

236 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:38:49pm

re: #220 Killgore Trout

Killgore, my reference is to the multi-cultural types, and specifically the ACLU who has definitely shown no interest in pursuing encroachment, nor the funding behind most of it.

237 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:39:02pm

re: #223 buzzsawmonkey

Actually, shark is completely non-kosher, so I wouldn't have it in either form. But the line was too good to pass up.

You're missing out, oh Son of Abraham. Mako Shark is pretty good.

238 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:39:34pm
239 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:40:18pm

re: #199 formercorpsman

I agree with you for the most part.

Finding out Santa was not real was a little sad for me, but by the time my parents fessed up, I already had doubts from other kids who knew.

It would just seem to me, if this was responsible for the major damage some people are afraid of, it would have manifested by now.

I think most people who give up their creationist beliefs are considerably older and more set in their beliefs than kids--still, probably most of them manage it without any lasting psychological damage. I'm more concerned about the people who never give up their creationist beliefs--or, at least, that segment of them that wants to redefine science so it conforms with their beliefs.

240 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:41:36pm

re: #179 lawhawk

Damn.

I was going to buy that book.

242 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:42:08pm

re: #228 Basho

Elaborate.

243 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:42:41pm

re: #238 buzzsawmonkey

You are welcome to my portion.

Pass the Tatar Sauce!

244 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:43:19pm

re: #227 Charles

I didn't know about the troofer angle, but it doesn't surprise me. He also ripped off a whole lot of material from LGF for his ludicrous, borderline illiterate book about Iran.

Dizzang, Charles. That's a strong statement -- I hope his publisher's lawyers don't come calling in the next few days.

245 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:43:48pm

re: #238 buzzsawmonkey

So why isn't it kosher, btw?

246 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:44:02pm

re: #239 Tigger2005

My inference was global warming.

Looking back at that post, I see it might not have been clear though.

248 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:44:39pm

re: #179 lawhawk

Ah, man. He's going to get tarred and feathered in the media.

249 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:45:24pm

re: #245 Occasional Reader

So why isn't it kosher, btw?

Fish with no scales, IIRC.

250 sparrowlake  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:45:46pm

re: #135 Cognito

There seems to be a theory of Islamic-Creationist-Russo conspiracy emerging, here.
Seems far more likely to me that there are some tremendously disparate people in the world who happen to have something in common.

The more I see and read about these DI/IDers the less respect I have for the vast majority of mainstream believers who fail to speak out against these whackjobs. I expect that unless the mainstream churches purge their ranks of these self-destructive influences there will be a high price to pay by Western mainstream religions.

As far as climate change is concerned, I would like to know why overpopulation, the obvious elephant in the room, is consistently ignored by the Goreacle and his followers. In a related vein are the goofy arguments against birth control, abortion and reduced bithrates being bandied about as demographic strategies by religious zealots in the global war against Islamofascism. As if the West should try to beat back the overbreeding Islamist hordes by outbreeding them -all of which is a sad joke and a distraction from the obvious fact that our planet is quickly losing its ability to sustain the explosive growth in human population.

252 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:46:01pm

re: #231 OldLineTexan

There was a primitive version of Animal Planet, but it involved Christians so it was eventually outlawed.

/

And of course that heartwarming series, Leave it to Maximus.

253 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:46:54pm

re: #244 Cognito

Dizzang, Charles. That's a strong statement -- I hope his publisher's lawyers don't come calling in the next few days.

Here we go. Cogs undue support of the major media. They can do no wrong.

254 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:47:26pm

re: #252 Occasional Reader

And of course that heartwarming series, Leave it to Maximus.

You know, once you start whistling that theme song, it's pretty much impossible to get it out of your head.

255 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:47:31pm
256 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:06pm

re: #252 Occasional Reader

And of course that heartwarming series, Leave it to Maximus.

Came on right vefore "I Love Caligula"

257 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:13pm
258 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:36pm

re: #204 Sharmuta

It's unfortunate the ACLU or any other group isn't working on cases like tax payer funded footbaths in schools, but if these were being taken to court, I believe the Constitution would eventually win. And I think islamic creationism would lose too just as it's Christian counterpart has. But if we want to make sure the legal jihad is stopped, I think we best be prepared to be intellectually honest and unhypocritical. One religion gets special treatment, they all do. This is why our secular traditions should be defended, no matter what our personal religious leanings may want to favor.

If I ever join the priesthood and become a Cardinal, I'm voting for Sharmuta as "Pope Joan II"

259 Alouette  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:36pm

re: #255 buzzsawmonkey

Sharks do not have scales. Kosher marine life must have both fins and scales.

That is why jellyfish, lobsters, shrimp, eels, sea cucumbers, catfish, sharks, and--according to most authorities--swordfish and sturgeon are not kosher.

That most of these are also either scavengers or raptors (as are many of the non-kosher land animals) may or may not be coincidence.

But piranha have fins and scales. Weird, huh?

260 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:36pm

re: #248 Noam Sayin'

Ah, man. He's going to get tarred and feathered in the media.

Looks like he deserves to be tossed out of the public debate, to me. I can't abide anyone who embraces September 11 theories.

261 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:48:43pm

re: #193 Naso Tang

Once upon a time the buffalo and Passenger Pigeon were thought numerous enough to feed and clothe a nation.

When I was young there were perhaps 3 billion people on the planet and the fishing was glorious and the reefs were endless and most of the planet was safe to travel.

If you want to say "man" doesn't make a difference, wait.

While it's certainly true we've had an impact on the planet, I don't think it is so simple to compare global warming and evolution. Evolution has 150 years of research behind it (and more years of research before it was even proposed). Global warming is a much newer, and much more uncertain, "science." We can observe evolution...we can see it in the rocks...we can find evidence of it in DNA. Weather patterns are much trickier. In addition, this whole area of research has become politicized to an insane degree, and there is a lot of money involved as well. That Bishop Hill blog post is a good example of how screwed up global warming research is. There's a lot of bad science out there right now on this particular subject.

262 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:09pm

re: #255 buzzsawmonkey

Sharks do not have scales. Kosher marine life must have both fins and scales.

Picky, picky, picky, that Yahweh.

263 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:23pm
264 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:24pm
265 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:28pm

re: #259 Alouette

But piranha have fins and scales. Weird, huh?

I've eaten piranha!

266 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:47pm

re: #195 Occasional Reader

Something fishy going on here.

267 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:50pm

re: #253 Walter L. Newton

Here we go. Cogs undue support of the major media. They can do no wrong.

Not at all. And I don't think one crackpot author is "the major media."

268 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:49:55pm

re: #255 buzzsawmonkey

Sharks do not have scales. Kosher marine life must have both fins and scales.

That is why jellyfish, lobsters, shrimp, eels, sea cucumbers, catfish, sharks, and--according to most authorities--swordfish and sturgeon are not kosher.

That most of these are also either scavengers or raptors (as are many of the non-kosher land animals) may or may not be coincidence.

Delicious.

Tried it; they can keep it.

269 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:50:06pm
270 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:50:21pm

[Link: georgiamfa.blogspot.com...]

Thursday, August 14, 2008
Russian Military Establishes Illegal Checkpoint
Russian military have established an illegal checkpoint on the main highway at the city of Gori

According to the recent information received by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs from the appropriate authorities of Georgia, on 13 August 2008, the Russian military have established an illegal checkpoint on the main highway at the city of Gori. All cargo vehicles passing through this checkpoint are being stopped and thoroughly searched by the Russian military, and being allowed the free passage only under condition of payment of ransom.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is assessing this act as a grave violation of international law and sovereignty of Georgia.

By introducing illegal armed formations and groups of bandits who are now blocking Georgian highways, looting peaceful population and disrupting trade, the Russian Federation again clearly demonstrates that its aim is the full occupation of Georgia.
Posted by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia at 12:07 AM
Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Hotline created
Today the Cabinet of the Minister of State of Georgia for Reintegration has created a hotline, which will work for 24 hours.

We call on all citizens to contact us if they possess information on the following issues:

Hostages

Facts of looting

Peaceful population remained in the conflict zone


Thanking in advance for cooperation

Hotline:
47 30 06
98 94 51
Posted by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia at 8:20 PM

271 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:50:33pm

re: #263 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, now that you mention it.

In Soviet Brazil, fish sticks eats you!

272 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:50:42pm

re: #259 Alouette

But piranha have fins and scales. Weird, huh?

Cornmeal, pepper, and some hot oil.

We'll see who eats who.

273 Walter L. Newton  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:09pm

re: #267 Cognito

Not at all. And I don't think one crackpot author is "the major media."

You mentioned the publishers lawyers. not the authors. I was refering to your reference to "publisher." They are major media.

274 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:10pm

FUCK YOU, PUTIN.

275 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:11pm

re: #261 Tigger2005

Actually Tigger, you can see it in the rocks.

The ocean floor reveals quite a bit about climate.

Diverging & Converging plates.

276 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:28pm

re: #247 MandyManners

All I got was

[Link: www.musicheadquarter.de...]

So are you saying the first link didn't work? It does for me - it's a google image search of Ville Valo.

The 69 Eyes - Lost Boys

277 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:29pm

re: #268 OldLineTexan

Delicious.

Tried it; they can keep it.

We're in complete agreement on each item (except I've never tried sturgeon).

278 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:32pm

re: #261 Tigger2005

While it's certainly true we've had an impact on the planet, I don't think it is so simple to compare global warming and evolution. Evolution has 150 years of research behind it (and more years of research before it was even proposed). Global warming is a much newer, and much more uncertain, "science." We can observe evolution...we can see it in the rocks...we can find evidence of it in DNA. Weather patterns are much trickier. In addition, this whole area of research has become politicized to an insane degree, and there is a lot of money involved as well. That Bishop Hill blog post is a good example of how screwed up global warming research is. There's a lot of bad science out there right now on this particular subject.

The American Bison was eradicated ON PURPOSE.

279 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:51:34pm

re: #225 Occasional Reader

Wait, wait, wait... are you sure about that? Not even the really, really old shows, like Dragnet?

My name is Josephus Saturninus. I carry a badge.

280 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:52:27pm

re: #273 Walter L. Newton

You mentioned the publishers lawyers. not the authors. I was refering to your reference to "publisher." They are major media.

Okay.

This isn't about media. But okay.

281 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:52:44pm
282 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:53:05pm

Still, PUTIN CENSORS THE NEWS.

[Link: www.aboutgeorgia.net...]

283 Lynn B.  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:53:16pm

re: #176 buzzsawmonkey

I'm assuming that you're trying to be cute, but your comment seems to lack a certain focus. If you are familiar with the Pentateuch, the Wilderness of Zin is referenced a number of times. A little ironic, given the areligious leftism of Howard Zinn's work.

Yes, it's not exactly a fictitious location. I've been there, and it's one of the more eerily gorgeous places on the face of the earth. Maybe I'll figure out how to digitize some of my prints. The images Google has up don't do it justice.

284 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:53:44pm
anti-science rubbish

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

285 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:53:58pm

re: #279 calcajun

My name is Josephus Saturninus. I carry a badge.

And then there was my favorite, Hibernia V-Oh.

"Book 'em, Danus."

286 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:54:15pm

re: #277 Occasional Reader

We're in complete agreement on each item (except I've never tried sturgeon).

OK, sturgeon...once I had like three eggs of low-grade albeit real Russian caviar on a toast point. Not bad. Didn't actually eat the fish.

287 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:54:18pm

re: #276 Catttt

So are you saying the first link didn't work? It does for me - it's a google image search of Ville Valo.

The 69 Eyes - Lost Boys

Goodness.

288 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:54:52pm

re: #258 Zimriel

Awww, shucks.

289 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:54:53pm

re: #274 MandyManners

FUCK YOU, PUTIN.

Puto I believe is the correct term.

290 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:55:14pm
291 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:55:31pm

re: #281 buzzsawmonkey

See, by differentiating this way, the Jews leave some fish for everyone else.

You have never seen devouring until you've seen some of the folks from my congregation attack the smoked fish at a large kiddush.

Looking at it that way it's pretty damned generous of y'all. Especially the catfish and shrimp. I can't imagine not having catfish and shrimp.

292 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:55:39pm

re: #284 jimc

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

Took long enough for you guys to show up :)

293 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:55:41pm

re: #213 wolfie

I have more concern over the erosion and subversion of American history than I have of science and biology. Once one goes, the other will follow.

294 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:56:06pm

Golly, the UC system is full of all those fancy people with fancy letters after their names! I'm sure they can set standards for history books.
Let's not question our superiors!

295 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:56:32pm

re: #284 jimc

Utter nonsense! Do you believe ID is a better theory? If so, then prove it.

296 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:56:49pm
297 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:56:58pm

re: #217 formercorpsman

Triangulation Naso.

You are putting words in my mouth.

Nice little slight of hand with the evolution dig as well.

Joe Bastardi for one seems pretty credible for my tastes.

Furthermore, if we are going to make comparisons, and examine our topic at hand, why do so many schools not allow equal time from the contrary professional opinion with respect to that subject?

I think you have used the Isle of Pines before, but I forgive you and myself too if it was someone else, but it was the same context.

Thanks for the evolution compliment, but your argument was in the same vein; namely mentioning unnamed professionals that will take us a years to dissect on all sides, and still end up unconvinced.

That there is politics in Global Warming is undeniable, and Kyoto was ridiculous in elimination the largest growing "polluters" on the planet, but that is politics. Denying that humans don't affect the environment, detrimentally and significantly, I don't need science to tell me, even though I respect science. I have seen it, in a big way.

You can blame the sun cycles if you wish, but I know there are enough of us to do damage and if you pay attention to the next traffic jam you are stuck in you should too.

As to equal contrary professional time in schools, I presume you are talking of evolution/creationism, not global warming, since the latter hasn't yet reached that level.

Surely you don't seriously mean to bring that up in this post again? I would call that trolling given that you are not new here. You can have all the education you want by searching, for example, posts by Salamantis. Much better than what I can do.

Enjoy.

298 calcajun  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:57:09pm

re: #285 Occasional Reader

There was the obscure, "My Damus, the Ox-Cart"

299 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:58:32pm

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Wow.

300 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:58:38pm

re: #251 David IV of Georgia

For Finnish, I prefer Tarja and Nightwish type stuff.

Oh, I like Nightwish too. Small country - large talent.

I do miss Tarja being in Nightwish.

Angel

Phantom of the Opera

301 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:59:20pm

re: #294 wolfie

The point is that religious nuts don't have the right to dictate reality (history or science) to other educational institutions. UC can't be forced to accept these schools' backwards concepts.

302 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:59:31pm

re: #293 calcajun

I have more concern over the erosion and subversion of American history than I have of science and biology. Once one goes, the other will follow.

Absolutely!
And if anyone were seriously interested in defending the Constitution, they might care as much about the erosion of history teaching as you do.

303 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:59:41pm

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

I mean, seriously. Wow.

304 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 7:59:53pm

re: #260 Cognito

Looks like he deserves to be tossed out of the public debate, to me. I can't abide anyone who embraces September 11 theories.

That was a little sarcasm, but in my failing, I also meant to imply how folks who are critical of The O might get painted in along with this guy.

305 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:00:08pm

re: #299 MandyManners

Wow.

Spanish speakers, at least the less refined, always gigle when discussing the Soviet Emperor's Russian leader's name.

306 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:00:16pm

re: #280 Cognito

You are so full of shit, as usual. Spin and defend is something you do by rote.

307 Alouette  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:00:26pm

re: #281 buzzsawmonkey

See, by differentiating this way, the Jews leave some fish for everyone else.

You have never seen devouring until you've seen some of the folks from my congregation attack the smoked fish at a large kiddush.

When my son was a little 'un, he said, "is that why the smorgasbord is called horse devours?"

308 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:03pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

The point is that religious nuts don't have the right to dictate reality (history or science) to other educational institutions. UC can't be forced to accept these schools' backwards concepts.

Christian religious nuts, no.

309 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:06pm

re: #304 Noam Sayin'

And yes, Cog, on that issue, I agree with you.

WTF?

310 Cognito  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:20pm

re: #306 FurryOldGuyJeans

You are so full of shit, as usual. Spin and defend is something you do by rote.

What am I spinning or defending, if you don't mind?

Or are those words you simply use "by rote"?

311 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:22pm

re: #284 jimc

Yes, we've discussed and debunked Ben Stein's idiocy mant times here. Anything to add or are you just going to repeat easily debunked talking points?

312 jaunte  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:01:28pm

re: #284 jimc
"...modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith..."

Congratulations. You've just scored 40 points on the Baez Crackpot Index.

"#35: 40 points for comparing yourself to Galileo, suggesting that a modern-day Inquisition is hard at work on your case, and so on.
[Link: math.ucr.edu...]

313 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:02:23pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

I agree. If people think state university admission standards are not what they should be, they should push for them to be improved, NOT redefined to support biases by using lawsuits.

314 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:02:32pm

re: #308 OldLineTexan

This is not a ruling against Christians no matter how much you would like it to be true. This is a ruling against private schools delivering substandard education.

315 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:02:51pm

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Okay.

316 sparrowlake  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:03:20pm

re: #284 jimc

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

blah blah blah...do you actually believe any of that drivel?

317 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:03:58pm

I basically agree with #297, former. I would like to elaborate further but I'm on my Wii online and it is a pain to type. Gotta keep my posts short for now.

318 jim in virginia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:04:14pm

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Ding!
Adding to bookmarks.

319 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:04:27pm

re: #314 Killgore Trout

This is not a ruling against Christians no matter how much you would like it to be true. This is a ruling against private schools delivering substandard education.

You misinterpret me completely, here.

But have it your way. I'm not going to retype my posts from above, and I'm not so egotistical as to believe you read them before popping that little snap judgment out.

320 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:15pm

GAH.

321 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:22pm

re: #284 jimc

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

There are two subjects here, as you pointed out. Science is science, faith is faith. Do not conflate.

322 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:26pm

re: #297 Naso Tang

Actually Naso, I don't even know what the Pines reference is.

Second, my argument was not whether man has an impact on his environment.

Third, I went back and clarified my post to reflect where it might appear as if I was referencing the ID debate, I was not. My reference was equal time to the professionals who opine a contrary theory that of man made global warming.

It is very slick the way some folks will slip certain particulars of a discussion into something that was never entertained.

As the current argument stands, there is more than just a few dissenting professional opinions that refute the man made global warming theory as we have come to know it from the likes of Al Gore, or rabid environmentalists.

I see many wedge properties in their arguments myself.

323 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:35pm

re: #320 MandyManners

GAH.

My sentiments exactly.

324 neocon hippie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:43pm

re: #261 Tigger2005

What is the link to the Bishop Hill blog post that you're referring to?

325 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:05:47pm

"lobsters, shrimp" - Deut. 14:9"Of all that are in the waters you may eat these: whatever has fins and scales you may eat. 10And whatever does not have fins and scales you shall not eat; it is unclean for you. ... 19And all winged insects are unclean for you; they shall not be eaten."

I'm wondering if we can count a carapace, as per arthropods, as "scales". Lobsters and shrimp do have fins (on their tail). Also, as arthropods, lobsters and shrimp are insect-ish but NOT winged.

I'm thinking that there may be a "clean bug" loophole that lets lobsters and shrimp be kosher.

326 jim in virginia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:06:21pm

At NRO: Vlad, you've got mail.
The last one is priceless

327 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:06:34pm

We need to just keep landing more and more "humanitarian aid" workers in there. I bet the Russians will feel real tough when they see battle-hardened and disciplined American and British troops protecting and escorting Georgian civilians.

Oh, and fill some of those C-1 transports with M-1 tanks, stinger missiles, and so on.

Worried that this "escalation" would lead to nuclear war? I think if we don't do something now, nuclear war is pretty much inevitable. Anyway, we did plenty of extremely "provocative" stuff during the Cold War and it didn't lead to a nuclear exchange. When you firmly confront the Russians, they tend to back off...it's a chess game to them and they're very patient. It's when you DON'T confront them firmly that you're really risking getting yourself into a checkmate position, forcing YOU to go nuclear.


re: #270 MandyManners

[Link: georgiamfa.blogspot.com...]

Thursday, August 14, 2008
Russian Military Establishes Illegal Checkpoint
Russian military have established an illegal checkpoint on the main highway at the city of Gori

According to the recent information received by the Ministry of Foreign Affairs from the appropriate authorities of Georgia, on 13 August 2008, the Russian military have established an illegal checkpoint on the main highway at the city of Gori. All cargo vehicles passing through this checkpoint are being stopped and thoroughly searched by the Russian military, and being allowed the free passage only under condition of payment of ransom.

The Ministry of Foreign Affairs is assessing this act as a grave violation of international law and sovereignty of Georgia.

By introducing illegal armed formations and groups of bandits who are now blocking Georgian highways, looting peaceful population and disrupting trade, the Russian Federation again clearly demonstrates that its aim is the full occupation of Georgia.
Posted by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia at 12:07 AM
Wednesday, August 13, 2008
Hotline created
Today the Cabinet of the Minister of State of Georgia for Reintegration has created a hotline, which will work for 24 hours.

We call on all citizens to contact us if they possess information on the following issues:

Hostages

Facts of looting

Peaceful population remained in the conflict zone


Thanking in advance for cooperation

Hotline:
47 30 06
98 94 51
Posted by Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Georgia at 8:20 PM

328 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:07:56pm

re: #324 neocon hippie

What is the link to the Bishop Hill blog post that you're referring to?

[Link: bishophill.squarespace.com...]

329 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:08:27pm

OT - interesting tidbit:

One pound of cyanide found in Dirie's hotel room, enough to kill hundreds

330 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:08:56pm

re: #207 Tigger2005

I think you're trying to make the ancient world too much like the modern world. The Roman Empire had a great deal in common with the modern world, but it was still a prescientific and highly superstitious era.

Doesn't that sound awfully familiar today? Do you read any newspapers that don't have a horoscope? Have you asked any Asians what principles they use to decorate their homes?

Symbols and patterns had powerful meanings. And in a world where few were literate (and there was no TV, no mass communication, no rapid transit, etc.), symbols and patterns were used to convey important religious and cultural and spiritual concepts to the masses and hold the people together. No, I'm not suggesting that people back then were more "intelligent, educated, or insightful," but they lived in their world and this stuff was all around them.


Seriously, you should spend more time watching the mega church preachers on TV.

It's certainly likely that most of the "common people" saw the Bible stories as literal, but the repeated symbols and motifs probably spoke to them on a deep level as well. In any case, the Hebrew priests certainly WERE intelligent and well-educated. And I don't think it's just a coincidence that they kept using certain numbers, for example. Seven. Six. Twelve. Forty. Multiples of same. People knew what these numbers meant, not because they had any "special insight," but because it was part of their life.

Numerology is alive and well today, on the same shows mentioned above. People know what they mean because they are told what they mean, but not because the original writers said what it was supposed to mean.

I studied metaphysical Bible interpretation, and while I certainly considered the possibility that modern interpreters of the Bible were imposing symbolism and meaning where there was none, after a while the repetition of certain numbers and motifs in certain contexts becomes too obvious to dismiss as a complete coincidence. There's nothing mystical or spooky about all this...it's just a case of the Bible writers recycling things, bringing old symbols and motifs forward, making the past relevant to the present.

after a while the repetition of certain numbers and motifs in certain contexts becomes too obvious to dismiss as a complete coincidence.

I regret that you have not yet broken free of your "education", and the above sentence suggest why.

331 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:09:04pm

re: #327 Tigger2005

C-17 Globemaster
C-17

332 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:09:28pm

re: #295 Sharmuta

Utter nonsense! Do you believe ID is a better theory? If so, then prove it.

I didn't say ID is a better theory, but just because you can't find a better theory than evolution doesn't make it right, it just means that is the better than the alternative.

Evolution is the "Yada yada yada" theory...lifeless planet, yada yada yada, single celled organisms doing well for themselves and then yada yada yada, Cambrian explosion, creatures doing well for themselves, yada yada yada, sea creatures doing well for them selves, yada yada yada, land creatures, land creatures, yada yada yada, monkeys decide they need to see color, yada yada yada, RGB true color porn right on the screen...

Evolution means never having to explain how or why, just make up a good story have it published by good story lovers and then it can be used as reference material by bloggers...straw man science. There is no critical thinking in evolution just great story telling...

333 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:09:40pm

re: #287 MandyManners

Goodness.

:) They are awesome.

334 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:10:25pm

I just read the most stuck-up sentence I have ever seen.

Wow.

335 Zimriel  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:10:33pm

reine, it's looking more and more like "Jihad For Dummies".

336 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:11:07pm

re: #335 Zimriel

reine, it's looking more and more like "Jihad For Dummies".

Ya work with what ya got.

337 rlevitin  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:11:29pm

Drive-by Post:

I think this is a quote some libs really need to internalize:

"Si vis pacem, para bellum"
-Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
(trans: If you seek peace, prepare for war)

Just came across that bit of wisdom and had to share!

338 Basho  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:11:50pm

re: #332 jimc

You know nothing of eevolution, science in general, and probably anything in particular.

339 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:12:08pm

re: #301 Killgore Trout

The point is that religious nuts don't have the right to dictate reality (history or science) to other educational institutions. UC can't be forced to accept these schools' backwards concepts.

The point is that if "religious nuts" cannot run a private school according to their own lights, neither can "secular nuts." I am disturbed by some of the implications of the UC system's application of standards.

I have pointed out that the chief honcho judging history texts for the UC system (Gary Nash) is a man slightly to the left of Ward Churchill.He has been trying for over 20 years to dictate "reality" in history curricula. His "reality", BTW, includes the conviction that science and technology are evil constructs designed by the white man to oppress people of color.

The majority of lizard have concepts of history that are "backward."
Many have concepts about literature and English that are "backward."

There is more to this subject than initially meets the eye.

340 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:12:18pm

re: #332 jimc

I didn't say ID is a better theory, but just because you can't find a better theory than evolution doesn't make it right, it just means that is the better than the alternative.

Evolution is the "Yada yada yada" theory...lifeless planet, yada yada yada, single celled organisms doing well for themselves and then yada yada yada, Cambrian explosion, creatures doing well for themselves, yada yada yada, sea creatures doing well for them selves, yada yada yada, land creatures, land creatures, yada yada yada, monkeys decide they need to see color, yada yada yada, RGB true color porn right on the screen...

Evolution means never having to explain how or why, just make up a good story have it published by good story lovers and then it can be used as reference material by bloggers...straw man science. There is no critical thinking in evolution just great story telling...

That's one long turd you just pushed out there. Could be a world record.

341 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:12:55pm

re: #332 jimc

First- I never said that you said ID was a better theory. I asked you if it was.

Have a better theory for the diversification on species on this planet? If so, present it, otherwise you're doing nothing but showing your ignorance.

342 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:13:03pm

re: #338 Basho

You know nothing of eevolution, science in general, and probably anything in particular.

That's that Russian poet that wrote all in lower-case, ain't it?

343 MandyManners  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:13:44pm

re: #333 Catttt

:) They are awesome.

Indeed.

344 Ojoe  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:13:51pm

re: #337 rlevitin

Parallel is the quote from Machiavelli:

'You cannot avoid war, you can only put it off to the advantage of your opponent.'

345 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:14:06pm

re: #339 wolfie

The point is that if "religious nuts" cannot run a private school according to their own lights, neither can "secular nuts." I am disturbed by some of the implications of the UC system's application of standards.

I have pointed out that the chief honcho judging history texts for the UC system (Gary Nash) is a man slightly to the left of Ward Churchill.He has been trying for over 20 years to dictate "reality" in history curricula. His "reality", BTW, includes the conviction that science and technology are evil constructs designed by the white man to oppress people of color.

The majority of lizard have concepts of history that are "backward."
Many have concepts about literature and English that are "backward."

There is more to this subject than initially meets the eye.

He's on to us.

As a white male involved in science and technology, I can tell you it's true.

It's all about the O.

346 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:14:07pm

re: #330 Naso Tang

I regret that you have not yet broken free of your "education", and the above sentence suggest why.

Naso, you're reaching. Don't bring that crap in here.

And clearly, you've been drinking.

347 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:14:32pm

re: #284 jimc

Anti-science, laughable. Evolutionists are pseudo scientists themselves, modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith. Thou shalt not have any other gods before Darwin!

If you can provide honest to goodness, real world examples of this persecution you speak of, I might be tempted to believe you. Otherwise, you are simply trolling with phony bait.

348 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:16:00pm

re: #332 jimc

Evolution is the "Yada yada yada" theory

Well, sure. If by "yada yada", you mean "evidence".

349 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:17:16pm

re: #315 MandyManners

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Okay.

Perhaps I missed it, but surely I am not the only one to notice that the correct pronunciation is Putain?

350 jim in virginia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:18:42pm
As a white male involved in science and technology, I can tell you it's true.

The Masons only think they're in charge. It's really us good old white boy engineers.
Yeehaw!

351 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:18:55pm

re: #339 wolfie

That is the dichotomy known as America.

I just started reading The Gulag Archipelago.

As much as we are fighting extremism from religious entities seeking to impose themselves on academia, the hen house has no vacancies because the fox has all the rooms.

I fear the religious angle just slightly less than I do the leftist domination of the educational system.

It is them we have to thank for things such as socialism masquerading as multi-cultural ism, class warfare, and the separation of your money from your wallet for the greater good.

I think some months ago, Walter touched upon a theory I am giving more credence to.

352 Thanos  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:19:10pm

re: #247 MandyManners

All I got was

[Link: www.musicheadquarter.de...]

There's also The Rasmus, Helsinki Goth

353 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:20:06pm

re: #276 Catttt

So are you saying the first link didn't work? It does for me - it's a google image search of Ville Valo.

The 69 Eyes - Lost Boys

Meh, I'm more of a 20 Eyes kinda guy.

354 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:20:35pm

re: #329 reine.de.tout

OT - interesting tidbit:

One pound of cyanide found in Dirie's hotel room, enough to kill hundreds

Cyanide is not too hard to find—think rodent control—but it isn't something one keeps a big supply of on hand.

355 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:21:11pm

re: #346 Noam Sayin'

Naso, you're reaching. Don't bring that crap in here.

And clearly, you've been drinking.

You're the numerologist. How many have I had?

356 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:21:43pm

re: #354 David IV of Georgia

I think I read somewhere, the female that was just picked up has a treasure trove of AQ contact information, and possibly might have some connection this incident.

357 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:21:56pm

re: #314 Killgore Trout

This is not a ruling against Christians no matter how much you would like it to be true. This is a ruling against private schools delivering substandard education.

There are public schools in California, as in other states, where over a third of HS graduates read below a 4th grade level. ( A 2008 4th grade level, which is equivalent to a 2nd grade 1950 level.) Some are functionally illiterate. And of course, in some of these schools a majority of students do not even graduate.
The top 4% from these schools get automatic admission to the US system.....in the interest of covert affirmative action.

THAT is "substandard education" to me.

358 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:23:08pm

re: #349 Naso Tang

re: #289 David IV of Georgia

Puto I believe is the correct term.

Perhaps I missed it, but surely I am not the only one to notice that the correct pronunciation is Putain?

That is a fair description too.

359 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:23:13pm

re: #357 wolfie

We started losing when the Department of Education was implemented.

360 sparrowlake  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:24:03pm

re: #330 Naso Tang

The whole damn thing is just too pataphysical.

361 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:24:04pm

re: #357 wolfie

I can appreciate your concern for education standards- I think all Lizards are concerned about them. However- the point remains that we don't correct poor standards in education by inserting more bias or bias of a different nature.

362 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:24:42pm

re: #358 David IV of Georgia

That is a fair description too.

This being the pre-Obama age of dis-enlightenment, I could not make out the foreign language on that page.

/

363 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:04pm

re: #357 wolfie

Education in this country sucks, you won't get any argument out of me on that. Why should we make it worse by forcing universities to accept substandard curriculum dictated by religious nuts?

364 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:06pm

re: #352 Thanos

There's also The Rasmus, Helsinki Goth

:D

365 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:15pm

OT - interesting tidbit:

One pound of cyanide found in Dirie's hotel room, enough to kill hundreds
re: #335 Zimriel

reine, it's looking more and more like "Jihad For Dummies".

Are you saying that the authorities continue to insist that there is nothing suspicious here? Just your everyday suicide case involving a Somali-Canadian with one pound of cyanide, no reason to believe there is a terror connection?

366 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:15pm

re: #360 sparrowlake

The whole damn thing is just too pataphysical.

I always thought he was singing "metaphysical". But you're right.

367 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:32pm

If Andrea Kramer asks Mike Phelps "what was going through your mind when you..." ONE MORE TIME my freakin' head is gonna EXPLODE.

368 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:25:54pm
#353 Slumbering Behemoth

re: #276 Catttt

So are you saying the first link didn't work? It does for me - it's a google image search of Ville Valo.

The 69 Eyes - Lost Boys

Meh, I'm more of a 20 Eyes kinda guy.

If you can control yourself, it's a 1000 eyes...

369 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:26:10pm

re: #312 jaunte

"...modern day inquisitors persecuting the competing faith..."

Congratulations. You've just scored 40 points on the Baez Crackpot Index.

"#35: 40 points for comparing yourself to Galileo, suggesting that a modern-day Inquisition is hard at work on your case, and so on.
[Link: math.ucr.edu...]

Keep that scorecard handy, Jaunte, I think it will get a lot of use. Not to mention provide a great deal of enlightening entertainment.

370 Jim D  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:26:43pm

re: #339 wolfie

The point is that if "religious nuts" cannot run a private school according to their own lights, neither can "secular nuts." I am disturbed by some of the implications of the UC system's application of standards.


I didn't think anyone was preventing the religious nuts from running schools as they wish. They just can't do so and expect folks that don't believe that science = magic to go along with all that silliness.

371 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:27:11pm

re: #354 David IV of Georgia

Cyanide is not too hard to find—think rodent control—but it isn't something one keeps a big supply of on hand.

Well, nor is it something one usually brings on vacation. If, say, I were a Somali-Canadian vacationing in Denver, I'm not sure I would waste my packing space with cyanide.

372 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:27:28pm

re: #345 OldLineTexan

Oh no! A white MALE, no less!
As any 2-bit women's studies prof can tell you, science is phallocentric, logomaniacal patriarchy!

373 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:12pm

re: #367 Cartman

When I was a competitive swimmer years ago, my thoughts in the pool were usually along the lines of "breathe, stroke, breathe, stroke, breathe, go faster, breathe, flip, breathe...."

374 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:31pm

re: #355 Naso Tang

You're the numerologist. How many have I had?

I'm not a numerologist. I just played one on the daytime soaps back in the late 80s. How the f*ck did you figure that out? It was three episodes. I was off the lot before they even brought out lunch.

I'll need your height, weight, and relative girliness.

375 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:37pm

re: #356 formercorpsman

I think I read somewhere, the female that was just picked up has a treasure trove of AQ contact information, and possibly might have some connection this incident.

I'm not saying there is no guilt, just saying that having a pound of cyanide is not so hard to come by. I remember that quite ordinary means were used to kill thousands on 9-11.

376 Maximu§  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:46pm

OT

Anyone here remember the thread about that maniac (Vince Li) who calmly murdered and beheaded his seatmate on that Greyhound bus in Canada?

Blogs are talking about Windigo possession and one website claims this happened in Alberta before in 1879.

Swift Runner the Cannibal

From what I know, Windigo's are an evil sprit that can take possession of people and turn them into cannibalistic monsters. Vince Li was obvioulsy a psychopath/sociopath, but I wonder if people in that frame of mind could become easy prey for a Windigo?

Fellow bus riders claimed Vince Li was totally calm as he sawed off that poor schmucks head....weird stuff, maybe that part of Alberta is haunted.

377 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:47pm

re: #373 Sharmuta

Exactly.

378 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:28:53pm

re: #362 OldLineTexan

This being the pre-Obama age of dis-enlightenment, I could not make out the foreign language on that page.

/

Sorry about that, one forgets which frame of reference one is in sometimes

Putain = Whore

as the French say.

379 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:29:07pm

re: #367 Cartman

If Andrea Kramer asks Mike Phelps "what was going through your mind when you..." ONE MORE TIME my freakin' head is gonna EXPLODE.

No kidding. To do what he's doing, he can be thinking about only 3 things - eating, sleeping, swimming, and then eating a lot more.

380 Capitalistincharge  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:29:21pm

Hate to OT everyone but, CNN is reporting 15,000 Russian Troops are now in Georgia. They start 4 days ago with 8,000. They are definately on the move.

381 stevieray  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:29:55pm

re: #365 reine.de.tout

Are you saying that the authorities continue to insist that there is nothing suspicious here? Just your everyday suicide case involving a Somali-Canadian with one pound of cyanide, no reason to believe there is a terror connection?

Who the heck would believe that? You know the feds have got to be calling the shots... leaving the local cops to stammer out the "no connection to terror" bull.

382 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:17pm

re: #361 Sharmuta

I agree with that Sharmuta.

But it can't be denied, there has been an extremely aggressive effort to remove anything religious from our school system, not in the spirit of the Constitution, but from special interest that looks to diminish.

I was just reading today, the ACLU is going to go up against a town that VOTED to impose a curfew because of crime in their jurisdiction.

The ACLU has become nothing but a nuisance for society. Moreover, they do it with our tax dollars reimbursing them.

I think there is something to be said, about the traditional mooring society once had when it revered the judeo-christian foundation.

I don't think it would be fair to blame the rampant illegitimacy we see now on religious overtones in school.

383 David IV of Georgia  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:31pm

re: #362 OldLineTexan

This being the pre-Obama age of dis-enlightenment, I could not make out the foreign language on that page.

/

Mostly the entire putain page consisted of French synonyms and euphemisms for whore and prostitute.

384 Charles  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:46pm

re: #339 wolfie

The point is that if "religious nuts" cannot run a private school according to their own lights, neither can "secular nuts."

Sure, they can run their schools any way they like, and teach their students anything they like. Nobody is telling them otherwise.

What they can't do: expect the state's university system to accept students that have been "educated" to believe in religious fanaticism.

385 FurryOldGuyJeans  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:52pm

re: #357 wolfie

There are public schools in California, as in other states, where over a third of HS graduates read below a 4th grade level. ( A 2008 4th grade level, which is equivalent to a 2nd grade 1950 level.) Some are functionally illiterate. And of course, in some of these schools a majority of students do not even graduate.
The top 4% from these schools get automatic admission to the US system.....in the interest of covert affirmative action.

THAT is "substandard education" to me.

And introducing ID into public schools solves this how? Might as well beat the dog because your aged granny passed gas. Doing the latter makes as much sense as the former.

386 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:30:53pm

re: #372 wolfie

Oh no! A white MALE, no less!
As any 2-bit women's studies prof can tell you, science is phallocentric, logomaniacal patriarchy!

I saw a Professor of Urban Education on O'Reilly tonight.

I was so stunned I neglected to fully document his argument that Jesus would have approved of abortion, including partial-birth abortion.

Thank God he's not teaching...oh

387 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:31:21pm

re: #379 reine.de.tout

I know. I just don't understand her compulsion to ask him that at least once, every damn interview she does with him!

388 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:31:32pm

re: #363 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I am being serious, and no I am not playing the straw-man.

We led the world at one time, what happened to our education system?

389 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:31:52pm

re: #387 Cartman

I know. I just don't understand her compulsion to ask him that at least once, every damn interview she does with him!

She doesn't know what else to ask, I guess.

390 Catttt  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:12pm

re: #368 solomonpanting

If you can control yourself, it's a 1000 eyes...

Oooooh - Bobby Vee! :) I remember listening to that on the radio when I was a kid. I know all the words to that one.

391 Naso Tang  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:22pm

re: #374 Noam Sayin'


I'll need your height, weight, and relative girliness.

I need to know in what measurements, or if you want multiple one, just to make sure that the pegs fit the right openings.

392 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:30pm

re: #351 formercorpsman

I fear that what is now being done to "religious nuts" will soon be done to all the "nuts" that disagree w/ politically correct views.

I cannot understand why so few lizards give a damn about the history and English issue here.

393 OldLineTexan  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:31pm

re: #383 David IV of Georgia

Mostly the entire putain page consisted of French synonyms and euphemisms for whore and prostitute.

I used the sarc symbolism, people!

Are we lacking a common cultural reference point?

394 Cartman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:32pm

re: #389 reine.de.tout

She doesn't know what else to ask, I guess.

Well, then ask him what he had for lunch, or something. Fer cryin' out loud!

395 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:42pm

re: #384 Charles

Charles, I thought most states impose a minimum educational standard on alternative schools.

Not being contrary, but that was always my understanding.

396 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:33:54pm

re: #347 Slumbering Behemoth

If you can provide honest to goodness, real world examples of this persecution you speak of, I might be tempted to believe you. Otherwise, you are simply trolling with phony bait.

The persecution you seek is the targeting of Christian schools labeling them "anti-science" when that is a really a straw man tactic to make Christian education appear "substandard". So they don't believe your religion, shut them down...nah no persecution there....

397 jaunte  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:34:21pm

re: #388 formercorpsman

Having a better social safety net means that education often isn't seen as critical for survival. The lessons the depression generation learned weren't passed on to their grandchildren.

398 wolfie  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:34:33pm

re: #359 formercorpsman

We started losing when the Department of Education was implemented.

That was, indeed, a HUGE blow.

399 blue_like_jazz  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:34:43pm

re: #357 wolfie

There are public schools in California, as in other states, where over a third of HS graduates read below a 4th grade level. ( A 2008 4th grade level, which is equivalent to a 2nd grade 1950 level.) Some are functionally illiterate. And of course, in some of these schools a majority of students do not even graduate.
The top 4% from these schools get automatic admission to the US system.....in the interest of covert affirmative action.

THAT is "substandard education" to me.


And this is where things get murky for me.

Let's take the christian element out of this for just a second... now universities can deny ANY student because they don't approve of the textbooks used to educate the student. This opens the door for blanket exclusion by PUBLIC universities of students who go to Christian schools, without regard to any other of their qualifications. That's not scary to anybody here?

If the student scored well on ACT/SAT tests, can write a good entrance essay, and otherwise seems like a good fit for the school, s/he should be admitted. Give them a chance to sink or swim.

Denying a child entrance to a PUBLIC university simply because of what curriculum was employed seems rather discriminatory when other students who can hardly string a sentence together are admitted.

400 Slumbering Behemoth  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:34:59pm

re: #332 jimc

*Yawn*

401 reine.de.tout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:29pm

re: #394 Cartman

Well, then ask him what he had for lunch, or something. Fer cryin' out loud!

On Fox this morning, they prepared a normal "Michael Phelps" breakfast for one of their staff members.

It contained, I believe, 3000 calories.

It took the guy the entire show time to eat it all.

402 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:36pm

re: #348 Occasional Reader

Well, sure. If by "yada yada", you mean "evidence".

If by evidence you mean conjecture and guessing, then you got me!

403 Noam Sayin'  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:39pm

re: #391 Naso Tang

I don't know, man. You went off the rails with that one.

404 formercorpsman  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:39pm

re: #375 David IV of Georgia

True.

Neither is gaining access to the United States.

It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

405 Killgore Trout  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:35:57pm

re: #388 formercorpsman

We no longer value education and science in this country. Not on the left and not on the right. Don't fret for the human race, there are plenty of other countries willing to take our place as the leaders in science and technology. I'm betting on the longshot India, they value education and respect science.

406 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:36:03pm

re: #396 jimc

No one is stopping private schools from teaching what they want. What the schools can't do is force the university systems to accept their students.

407 Tigger2005  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:36:31pm

re: #330 Naso Tang

I regret that you have not yet broken free of your "education", and the above sentence suggest why.

Again. There are SIMILARITIES between the modern world and the ancient world. But there are profound DIFFERENCES too. Symbols and motifs and patterns of various kinds remain important to people today. But they likely had a profundity and sacredness and seriousness and power to the ancients that a lot of modern people really can't grasp, no matter how New-Agey and horoscopey and psychic hotline calling and pyramid power they may be. Much superstition today is largely a reaction to science and skepticism and the reality of a vast and seemingly uncaring universe...back then it was how people explained their world, it was how peoples explained and justified their existence. Their world was smaller, it was filled with spirits and demons, the heavens were just above, the hells just below. Again, many people today see the world that way too. But do they really see it in EXACTLY the same way the ancients did? No, they can't. They just know too much more about reality than the ancients did, they can't help it. Just living in this modern world, no matter how much they might try to avoid knowledge of scientific realities, they're still going to pick some up.

Really, you made my point for me. Yes, symbols, patterns, motifs, are powerfully meaningful for many people today. All I'm saying is that they were probably even more important to people in the ancient, prescientific world, even more intrinsic and fundamental to their lives.

408 Sharmuta  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:37:01pm

re: #402 jimc

You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

409 Occasional Reader  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:37:40pm

re: #402 jimc

If by evidence you mean conjecture and guessing, then you got me!

Strange how they manage to fill entire museums with "conjecture and guessing". But you just believe whatever makes you happy.

410 jimc  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:37:56pm

re: #400 Slumbering Behemoth

*Yawn*

That's clever, gave a link to the trollz website. Ha, you're funny. The gestapo tactics of the evolutionist, expelled is fiction eh...

411 solomonpanting  Wed, Aug 13, 2008 8:38:22pm

re: