make him hibernate

winter is coming and the bear needs his rest

Somebody's shooting blanks

donate some capture Iranian IEDs to the Georgian rsistance
which is all their army is now...

I read an article that a Russian pilot had been shot down, he was 52. From his hospital bed in Tbilisi, he said all the Russian pilots are about that age. They are flying planes manufactured in the early '80s.

Charles,

You got " target="_blank"> code showing up in the post. Posting error or another nefarious Russian plot?
;)

Fishbowl

let the Russians see how well their designs (the Iranian IEDs) work in the field

Fox reporter says that Russia is not retreating.

Whenever people speak in absolutes, they're usually dead wrong. I wouldn't underestimate Russian forces, nor do I feel any better because Stuart Koehl chooses to do so.

It's occurred to me that if anyone wanted to take a potshot at Russia right now, Russia would be hard up for anyone coming to their defense. Brilliant strategy there, putin.

Here is my previously mentioned article.

The Georgians should probably take a look back at who's twisted the bear's nads in the past, and take lessons from them.  Afganistan is a very good textbook to read in that light.

}:P     [I never thought I'd be saying "Damn the Russians" in this day and age ... ]

re: #2 Adrenalyn

winter is coming and the bear needs his rest

Poetic justice, considering Russia's way of wearing down both Napoleon and Hitler.

re: #8 debutaunt

Fox reporter says that Russia is not retreating.

We should be giving the Georgians a few toys to encourage movement in the right direction.

Don't worry. Obambi will give the Soviets Russians all the time they need to regroup.

Send in the drones!

We might be left fighting the stick after the diamond where's down. But quantity has a quality all it's own. Just ask the Germans in Stalingrad or Leningrad.

re: #13 RememberSekhmet?

Poetic justice, considering Russia's way of wearing down both Napoleon and Hitler.

They want to be in Georgian when winter came, then be able the blame the weather for not pulling out.

re: #10 Sharmuta

It's occurred to me that if anyone wanted to take a potshot at Russia right now, Russia would be hard up for anyone coming to their defense. Brilliant strategy there, putin.

"Yoo hoo, China, look ... you can see Russia's knickers, they're bent over Georgia so far ... "

}:/     [Tough call on our part though: what to do if China DID take Russia ... ]

I never tried to wear down a bear, but I'm positve that I'll never poke a leopard with a stick.

re: #11 rawmuse

Here is my previously mentioned article.

Excellent.
Don't you love the scent of fresh baked thread in the morning?

re: #19 Kulhwch

You can just imagine the sprouting of "Free Siberia" bumper-stickers on the left coast.

re: #19 Kulhwch

Funny- China was exactly what I was thinking. Some of us were discussing it in the lounge last night. With Russia having pissed off any potential allies, and China having the economy it has- it's hard for me to imagine China being taken to task. It would be easier to stand up to the bear rather than the dragon.

It would seem that the bear has little (or no )ability, to manufacture any replacement 'ARMS' to continue in the event of big losses.

Perhaps a few in place 'moles' could raid factories and REALLY destroy their response!

re: #8 debutaunt

Fox reporter says that Russia is not retreating.

And that's how you wear down the bear - don't let them retreat, cut them off.

Easy and cheap would be to hire Blackwater. They are an independent firm with no boarders and they are battle hardened. They will aquire the weapons they need and they will clean up the Russian irregulars. They aren't paid by the United States but Georgia, so they are Georgian fighters by definition.

re: #11 rawmuse

Interesting. I'd been wondering about their air capabilities.

re: #12 Kulhwch

twisted the bear's nads

I'll nominate that for a rotating title...

In Soviet Georgia, bear wears down you...
-Yakov Smirnov, military historian.

re: #9 theheat

Whenever people speak in absolutes, they're usually dead wrong. I wouldn't underestimate Russian forces, nor do I feel any better because Stuart Koehl chooses to do so.

You have a definite point, and I think it's one to keep in mind.

I hope you are wrong, because nothing would please me more than to watch the Russians fall apart.

re: #2 Adrenalyn

winter is coming and the bear needs his rest

Ahhh...grasshopper. No place to sleep when it's 75 degrees all winter.

You forgot global warming...need other plan.

No joy at all - read this about the 'peace agreement' ...

Oh, and here' an instructive little snippet from that report:

"Mr Saakashvili was humiliated further when the final text of the agreement, delivered personally by Condoleezza Rice, the US Secretary of State, removed a reference to Russian recognition of Georgia’s territorial integrity. It referred only to independence and sovereignty," ...

I only hope that behind the scenes the G7 and NATO are doing their utmost to expel Russia from their meetings and deliberations - foreer, if encessary!

The Russians have numbers on their side, but as the article suggests, the Russians have a supply and personnel issue. We've seen numerous examples where the Russians simply don't have disciplined troops, but rather engage in looting and thuggery. We've seen that the Georgians, even though outnumbered and lacking air superiority still managed to take out a number of Russian aircraft - and apparently the Russians don't even have countermeasures for their own equipment.

Meanwhile, Peters has still more today:

The media eagerly repeat Putin's claim that the situation in Georgia simply mirrors that in Kosovo. Yet, Kosovo's freedom-fighters were home-grown, while the KGB and its successor, the FSB, created, funded and protected the thugs recruited for secessionist movements in South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

If Moscow insists so indignantly that minorities have a right to secede, why doesn't the same rule apply to Chechnya? Or to Daghestan and other Russian internal regions chafing under Moscow's oppression? Why haven't the media noticed that moral equivalence?

It's been a week of bullets in Georgia and blather in the West. Why was our press so outraged over the mistreatment of a dozen prisoners in Abu Ghraib but indifferent to the massive suffering of the Georgian people - who weren't just photographed in embarrassing positions, but murdered, raped, tortured and driven from homes that the Russian army and its local henchmen destroyed? Is love of freedom a crime to our media?

Indeed.

re: #5 rawmuse

I read an article that a Russian pilot had been shot down, he was 52. From his hospital bed in Tbilisi, he said all the Russian pilots are about that age. They are flying planes manufactured in the early '80s.

The President of Georgia said yesterday in his presser with Condi that the Russians had had to scoop up retired pilots off the streets of Moscow to put planes over Georgia. A Russian evaluation I came across quoted the various Red Army generals as shaking their heads, absolutely dumbfounded trying to figure out how the heck little Georgia shot down their planes.

And to add one last little kicker, in their haste to destroy all of the Georgian's war making & manufacturing potential they completely destroyed the plant that makes the planes the Red Army flies (SU something.) HAH!

re: #26 Shane

I fear that's not legal.

re: #11 rawmuse

Here is my previously mentioned article.

great read..thanks raw

Just so!

A cartoon which doesn't need a caption ...

re: #19 Kulhwch

Nobody wants to fight a cornered bear. Especially not one with nuclear tipped teeth.

re: #22 jaunte

"Let The Gulag Go!"

}:)     [It'd make for some interesting rallies ... ]

The problem we have is that the New Mk. II Cold War that is now being launched is an economic war, not a military confrontation. Ever since Putin came to power, it has been clear that Russia was not going to become a nice democratic place after all.

In 2001, Bush looked into Putin's eyes and "was able to get a sense of his soul." According to a BBC News report from the time of their first meeting, Bush "described Mr. Putin as a straightforward and trustworthy man." Straighforward perhaps if in a deceitful way; trustworthy, I don't think so. Jeesh, Bush came off sounding like the Obamanation, acting as if "talking nice" would solve all the problems in the world. (That meeting took place less than three months before 9/11, so things did change rather abruptly.)

When John McCain looked into those same eyes of the new Russian Czar, he said he saw three things, the letters: K, G and B. Events of the past seven years have put Bush's evaluation into serious doubt, and McCain's assessment seems to be spot on -- former KGB colonel Putin is leading a resurgence of the "bad" old Soviet Union, and the foundation has now been laid for overt adventurism and the projection of power through economic means.

Russia has evolved into what is at heart a criminal society, ruled by a new class of self-proclaimed "Mafiya" consisting of ultra-rich, conspicuously consuming thugs. It is becoming an economic powerhouse but with a large underclass of poor citizens, much like that other vast criminal enterprise, the PRC. Czarist feudalism has reemerged (it was always there), clothed in a new and troubling distortion of capitalism and with a new Czar on the throne in the Kremlin (nevermind that he is no longer President, he has the reins of power and will no doubt keep them as long as he lives).

Comparisons could be made here with the robber baron age of America, when ruthlessness (and mercilessness) ran rampant. The emergence of a rum running smuggler not too far removed from the likes of Al Capone (Joseph Kennedy) as a respectable cornerstone of society and father of a political dynasty tells how far we have come. Today's Russian counterparts to the robber barons are still in full bay like packs of hungry wolves, gobbling up everything they can by whatever means possible. Is there any doubt that at the very top, where Putin occupies the throne, there is much difference from the attitudes and methods of the mafiya?

The Cold War is on again, just like flicking a switch. But is is a new and improved Mk. II Cold War. Power will not be projected through ICBMs and tank divisions -- after all, that didn't work out very well the last time, too much of a Mexican standoff with too many guns on both sides. Now, oil and gas are both the lubricants and the goal of the new expansionist Russia, not to mention the very tools of power. And this time, we are like the guy who came to a gunfight with a knife, or even worse, a water pistol. Who were the smart ones when the Soviets backed down from that failed model of military standoff when they saw it wasn't working? Hmm, food for thought there, and now they're back with a new Mk. II model for which we are almost ludicrously ill prepared.

To quote the Clinton campaign of 1992, "It's the economy, stupid." Yes, stupid, it really is the economy, the WORLD economy (the Clintonestas saw it much too myopically and short term). We may have left the gold standard a long time ago, but we stupidly allowed it to be replaced by a de facto oil standard. And just as the outdated Golden Rule of economics said that those who have the gold, rule, those who have the oil rule today. And those oil empowered rulers are no friends of America.

re: #26 Shane

I hear Eric Prince (founder) speak recently and he said, without equivocation, that he is getting out of the business.

re: #33 lawhawk

He got it in one!

Just tell everyone in the north it's open season on bears in Georgia....no limits, no license and free airfare.
When they arrive at the airport hand them a ticket to the Georgia across the pond and tell them happy hunting.

re: #41 rawmuse

I hear Eric Prince (founder) speak recently and he said, without equivocation, that he is getting out of the business.

I'm not sure that's the kind of business one can get out of.

re: #34 galloping granny

[snip]
And to add one last little kicker, in their haste to destroy all of the Georgian's war making & manufacturing potential they completely destroyed the plant that makes the planes the Red Army flies (SU something.) HAH!

That's central planning for ya.

re: #10 Sharmuta

It's occurred to me that if anyone wanted to take a potshot at Russia right now, Russia would be hard up for anyone coming to their defense. Brilliant strategy there, putin.

An illustrative quote from "Red Dawn":

Jed Eckert: ...Well, who *is* on our side?
Col. Andy Tanner: Six hundred million screaming Chinamen.
Darryl Bates: Last I heard, there were a billion screaming Chinamen.
Col. Andy Tanner: There *were*.
[he throws whiskey on the fire; it ignites violently, suggesting a nuclear explosion]

China and Russia won't go to war, especially over resources. Why risk it when the Chinese can buy all they like. A Russia/Chinese alliance is a more troubling outcome, and not so unthinkable when you consider China will want friends if they ever try to annex Taiwan.

re: #23 Sharmuta

And China could always excuse itself by claiming to come to the aid of Georgia.  It's a win-win scenario for China.

}:)     [The tough choice would be for them to wait for the Olympics to be over, or just suprize Russia, say, next weekend, when the Russians sure wouldn't be expecting it?]

Koskidz love Russian propaganda....
Pravda editorial GOES OFF on Bush regarding Ossetia/Georgia

Progressive!

To #17 the Bluecannuck;

Quantity means nothing anymore. It just changes the pay load being brought to the battle field. As far as Leningrad goes, Hitler simply didn't learn the lesson of Thermopolis. Don't fight them, go around them, cut off the food supply. I hope we are smarter than that. We seemed to have learned our lesson if you look at Tora Bora. We had little to gain and only lives to lose fighting the terrorists in their pre-arranged battle ground, so we stopped. Backed up and waited for them to come to us.

The fact is, an army of 10-15 thousand dedicated with the right equipment could go in quickly and kick Russia out of Georgia. But you have a small window of about 3 days before reinforcements are sent. The trick is not to drive them out but to kill all the Russians so they can't regroup. Then the incoming force is a new force so you have to set up for them coming quickly. Over all, it would be best to use Blackwater or another group as arms dealers and funnel them weapons. Second, bring them into NATO. Third, set up the missle shield in as many countries as you can. Fourth, start knocking down satellites at sea(cut off communications). Fifth, make incursions into Russia and take out power lines and gas lines. No people.

Anyway, that would be my plan. And numbers wouldn't matter.

re: #44 itellu3times

I'm not sure that's the kind of business one can get out of.

Somehow, I don't worry about him. He looked very capable of taking care of himself. Steely-eyed, ramrod straight, and confident. I was impressed.

re: #40 Ruthless

Very nice post...

OT: Pelosi will allow drilling in the OCS, but only if they raise costs and taxes on "Big Oil."

"Her priorities include a repeal of royalty relief for offshore drillers and an end to other tax credits for the biggest oil companies, as well as so-called use it or lose it legislation forcing energy companies to relinquish un-used leases."

Translation: Make "Big Oil" pay!

Oh wait. That will make the price of gas go up as well, right?

"Little Oil" was unavailable for comment.

Roki tunnel mishap.

re: #48 Killgore Trout

I won't read it. The headline disgusts me.

Why they won't even try to get past their BDS I don't know.

re: #48 Killgore Trout

Koskidz love Russian propaganda....
Pravda editorial GOES OFF on Bush regarding Ossetia/Georgia

Progressive!

They really are holding up PRAVDA as something truthful and admirable? Ye gods and little fishes. . . . .

re: #28 christheprofessor

re: #12 Kulhwch

twisted the bear's nads

I'll nominate that for a rotating title...

}:D     [Thanks!]

re: #53 freedomplow

Frequent ones.

re: #38 Malthorn

Nobody wants to fight a cornered bear. Especially not one with nuclear tipped teeth.

True, but China's got nuclear teeth of their own.

}:)     [And, historically, a certain attitude problem ... ]

re: #55 galloping granny

They really are holding up PRAVDA as something truthful and admirable? Ye gods and little fishes. . . . .

Well do you expect them to act any differently to that paper?

/pravada means truth. ministry of peace, ministry of love. . . . . . . .

A friend just sent me this - WOAH! This is what you call "Telling it like it is!"

[Link: www.atimes.com...]

Just like ....
Sherman through Gerogia,
the Russian army may be "living off the land".

Guess any weapons they find will be needed elswhere to fund the expedition

re: #59 BlueCanuck

Well do you expect them to act any differently to that paper?

/pravada means truth. ministry of peace, ministry of love. . . . . . . .

I just find it almost flabbergasting that the younger generation appears to know literally nothing of the Cold War, Russia, the Soviet Union, Marxism, Communism or even propaganda.

1. Blow the tunnel; I mean wait for drunken fuel truck drivers to have an accident.
2. Sabotage the rail line from Sochi under a cliff; I mean anticipate seismic events.
3. Get Ukraine into Nato and scrub the Black Sea free of the Russian Navy.
4. In 8 weeks the Russian army will be needing evacuation before the Winter.

re: #46 beldar67

I agree that it's highly unlikely that China will do anything, but on the other hand- why buy it if you can take it. Who would stop them?

Hitler underestimated the Russians too. The name of the game is Logistics and our Logistics trail is too long.

re: #15 JammieWearingFool

Don't worry. Obambi will give the Soviets Russians all the time they need to regroup.

And money.

I'd have to check back, but I'm fairly certain at least one of those Russian jets was shot down by a Ukrainian missile.

re: #60 galloping granny

A friend just sent me this - WOAH! This is what you call "Telling it like it is!"

[Link: www.atimes.com...]

No mincing words here.

I enjoyed the joke at the end.

My favorite European joke is "Heaven is a place where the police are English; the chefs are Italian; the car mechanics are German; the lovers are French and it's all organized by the Swiss. Hell is a place where the police are German; the chefs are English; the car mechanics are French; the lovers are Swiss and it's all organized by the Italians."

re: #65 reno911

Hitler underestimated the Russians too. The name of the game is Logistics and our Logistics trail is too long.

What do you call 5 years in Iraq and Afghanistan? We have airlift and sealift like no one else. We've built our military to have a 12,000 mile loggie tail.

Is it hard? Yes, impossible? Hardly.

We do not let a democratically government, friends and allies go under because it's hard.

re: #68 jorline

Ha!

French President Nicolas Sarkozy, who currently holds the rotating ("revolting" may be a better word, but we are getting ahead of ourselves here) chairmanship of the European Union, effectively signed over Georgia's existence to the Russians by agreeing to the latter's proposal for the continued presence of Russian "peacekeepers" in Georgia. This is the excuse being used by the Russians for their presence in the town of Gori, even as the military has kept Georgia's capital Tbilisi firmly in its sights. More importantly, the accord brokered by the French makes no mention of Georgia's territorial integrity, in effect allowing for a takeover of the breakaway South Ossetia by the Russians, at the very least.

*Sigh*  And I had just developed so much respect for Sarkozy, thinking that at LAST France had a decent intelligent person in charge.

}:)     [Apparently the surrender monkey rides again ... ]

Speaking of:

McCain and Obama 2nite
from SoCal:
The Old Bear versus the Barely There

re: #65 reno911

To a degree... The Russians face a similar problem if we had the nuts to deal with it... Without directly attacking the Russian forces the US could blow apart the five or so mountain roads, collapse a critical tunnel and play "Sherman neckties" with lots of train tracks and leave the Russians without resupply except by air... motorized division suck wind when they've run out of both gas and ammo... don't forget to give the Georgians anti-tank and anti-air weapons and let them go at it... imo the Russians were counting on a quick collapse of the Georgian government/will and that did not happen, now it's very likely the Georgians will counter with turning the whole deal into something the Russians don't want to deal with.

Now imagine a President NObama in the WH with things like these going on. Scary, eeh?

re: #55 galloping granny

They really are holding up PRAVDA as something truthful and admirable? Ye gods and little fishes. . . . .

Time for new Palmer Raids

re: #74 winston06

Now imagine a President NObama in the WH with things like these going on. Scary, eeh?

He' start his address to the Crisis: "Russian Georgia....."

Looks like goog maps have scrubbed the roads of Georgia from their map section.

re: #63 lifeofthemind

Have to then blow the airfields, or better yet, keep the airfields open and knock down any Russians trying to land - or take off.

OTOH, I wonder if Russia could even maintain an air bridge into Georgia.

re: #52 rwmofo

OT: Pelosi will allow drilling in the OCS, but only if they raise costs and taxes on "Big Oil."

"Her priorities include a repeal of royalty relief for offshore drillers and an end to other tax credits for the biggest oil companies, as well as so-called use it or lose it legislation forcing energy companies to relinquish un-used leases."

Translation: Make "Big Oil" pay!

Oh wait. That will make the price of gas go up as well, right?

"Little Oil" was unavailable for comment.

big oil passes the tax $ on to little oil at the pump

Putin's wife has described him as a vampire. He said so. A stake through the heart or a beheading will put an end to him. The question is: what act of the West's will serve as the stake or as the beheading? Will Europe's hatred of America allow her to coddle Putin the same way it has Castro?

I hope Col. Tom shows up on one of these threads, a field grade officers assessment would be pretty interesting to me.

re: #78 itellu3times

OTOH, I wonder if Russia could even maintain an air bridge into Georgia.

Not if we didn't want it. Russian Air Power hasn't faired well, they've got some good stuff, but the drivers haven't had a lot of training lately.

re: #73 anotherindyfilmguy

That is the plan

re: #79 Airedale

big oil passes the tax $ on to little oil at the pump

I suspect most of the American voting public knows enough about costs and taxes to see right straight through this one. Pelosi might want to rethink that if she wants to remain as Speaker of the House.

re: #82 jcm

Not if we didn't want it. Russian Air Power hasn't faired well, they've got some good stuff, but the drivers haven't had a lot of training lately.

And they just blew up the plane factory!

re: #69 jcm

It's not hard...it's impossible. Sealift is out because of the Black Sea chokepoint. You gonna airlift everything in? I don't think so.

A commenter up thread has it exactly right, this is an economic war (they all are actually), let's fight it as such. If we started drilling now, the price of oil would collapse and Russia would be out of business.

I do not advocate leaving Georgia in the lurch. But fight this war the way we fought the last one.

CONTAINMENT.

re: #65 reno911

So's theirs. And they have always had trouble with logistics.

How to wear it down?

Leaves bottles of Stoli in a line (a la Hansel and Gretle) that leads straight off of a cliff (a la Road Runner and Coyote)

re: #84 galloping granny

I suspect most of the American voting public knows enough about costs and taxes to see right straight through this one. Pelosi might want to rethink that if she wants to remain as Speaker of the House.

Waters' let the (D) cat out of the bag while back.

Georgians could simply leave a lot of poisoned vodka laying around. Something like ethylene glycol.

re: #75 lifeofthemind

Hell, no!

Rooskies in Georgia? I guess Alabama is next.

re: #77 freedomplow

Looks like goog maps have scrubbed the roads of Georgia from their map section.

No, no no no. I explained this yesterday. Google Maps is serviced by a different database than Google Earth is. Google Earth gives you satellite photos. Google Maps gives you the same mapping data that Tomtom or your GPS unit or the US Post Office or OnStar uses. (I know this because one of my kids used to manage that database for one of the companies that produces it.) Georgia, US, is in the database. There is not much call for directions from Boston to the Republic of Georgia.

re: #81 JHW

I've been wondering what he thought, too. I haven't been over to the Kratskeller over on the Bar, either.

And it all happened because the Messiah wanted it to end. ObAmen.

re: #89 jcm

Waters' let the (D) cat out of the bag while back.

Yeah, I heard that as it happened. As far as I am concerned, she should have been impeached right then and there. Nationalizing our oil industry is quite some stretch from the oath she took to uphold the Constitution and the laws of the United States of America.

re: #86 reno911

The Turks might support such an action. They are under no illusions as to what the Russians are up to. I don't know if their internal politics will let them, but it would be in their interest to help the Georgians.

re: #34 galloping granny

And to add one last little kicker, in their haste to destroy all of the Georgian's war making & manufacturing potential they completely destroyed the plant that makes the planes the Red Army flies (SU something.) HAH!

Soviet Aircraft production was organized along different lines than the US, being that it was a socialist "planned" economy. Aircraft were designed in "design bureaus" usually named after the chief aviation engineer of that bureau, in the case of the plane in question, the SU-25 ground attack plane code-named "Frogfoot" by NATO, the design bureau of Pavel Sukhoi. Other design bureaus whose names you might be familiar with: Mikoyan and Gurevich aka "MiG" which designed fighters, Tupolev, who designed long range interceptor fighters, bombers (eg. the TU-95 "Bear") and airliners. Ilyushin, bombers and airliners, Antonov, airliners of various sizes and heavy transport planes, Yakovlev, fighters and Beriev who designed seaplanes. Once the design bureau created the design and the Central Planning committees agreed to produce it, manufacture was contracted out to factories across the USSR, not all of which were concentrated in Russia. Antonov transports, for example, were built in the Ukraine. So for example, you could have an aviation factory in Georgia that produced the Su-25 but also assembled aircraft designed by another design bureau.

re: #17 BlueCanuck

Counterpoint - Russia in Afghanistan. The battlefield its self has a lot to do with the forces ability to gain and hold ground. Urban v. inhospitable terrain, poor transportation routes for logistics, many checkpoints, etc.

I have a feeling there are many possibilities out there on how we can wear the bear down.
But if there is one thing that we can all agree on the use of...

It's vodka.

And lots of it.

re: #80 carray

Putin's wife has described him as a vampire. He said so. A stake through the heart or a beheading will put an end to him. The question is: what act of the West's will serve as the stake or as the beheading? Will Europe's hatred of America allow her to coddle Putin the same way it has Castro?

So we've totally disbanded the CIA sniper program?

}:P     [Shoot, where's Bob Lee Swagger when you need him?]

re: #94 Dianna

Yes it would be pretty interesting to get some informed, command grade or slot opinion. This amateur Field Marshall stuff is a bit fun,I've done it myself, but amateur is exactly the right word for it.

re: #68 jorline

All to true

From the water-carriers of dictators & tyrants, al-Guardian, Velcom comrades to zee New Verold Odor:

Six days that broke one country - and reshaped the world order [...]

The American "train and equip" mission for the Georgian military is six years old. It has been destroyed in as many days. And with it, Georgia's Nato ambitions. "There are a few countries that will say 'told you so'" about the need to get Georgia into Nato," said Andrew Wilson, Russia expert at the European Council on Foreign Relations. "But many more will want to walk away from the problem. And for the next few years, Georgia will be far too busy trying to pick itself up."

If Georgia and Nato are the principal casualties of this week's ruthless display of brute power by Vladimir Putin, the consequences are bigger still, the fallout immense, if uncertain. The regional and the global balance of power looks to have tilted, against the west and in favour of the rising or resurgent players of the east.

In a seminal speech in Munich last year, Putin confidently warned the west that he would not tolerate the age of American hyperpower. Seven years in office at the time and at the height of his powers, he delivered his most anti-western tirade.

and(reposted from earlier): US must share power in new world order, says Turkey's controversial president

Zee New Verold Odor is developing that very familiar but putrescent stench.

re: #101 Kulhwch

So we've totally disbanded the CIA sniper program?

}:P     [Shoot, where's Bob Lee Swagger when you need him?]

We put in some law or other that disallows assassinations of foreign heads of state.

re: #93 galloping granny

Why does Google Maps show the roads in Kazakhstan? Uzbekistan? Kyrgyzstan? Turkmenistan?

re: #100 Sizzlack

It couldn't hurt.

re: #106 MandyManners

Why does Google Maps show the roads in Kazakhstan? Uzbekistan? Kyrgyzstan? Turkmenistan?

There are roads in Kyrgyzstan?

re: #108 Sizzlack

There are roads in Kyrgyzstan?

They traded their vowels to get some roads

re: #99 Viking6

Counterpoint - Russia in Afghanistan. The battlefield its self has a lot to do with the forces ability to gain and hold ground. Urban v. inhospitable terrain, poor transportation routes for logistics, many checkpoints,chokepoints etc.

fixed it

Germany's Schroeder says Georgia sparked fighting Aug 16 2008

BERLIN, Aug 16 (Reuters) - Former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder blamed Tbilisi on Saturday for sparking hostilities with Moscow and suggested its breakaway regions could not remain part of Georgia following the violent clashes of the past week.

In an interview with German weekly Der Spiegel, Schroeder also criticised the West for failures in its dealings with Russia and urged Europe to strengthen its ties with Moscow.

Schroeder Defends His New Russian Job Dec 13, 2005

After days of silence former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has fired back at critics demanding from him to give up his new job at a German-Russian pipeline project.

re: #40 Ruthless

Great post! We are waging economic wars (i.e. resource wars) on many fronts.
One of the early terror trials had the Islamist screaming "The dollar is dead!"
A careful reading of most business sections show expanding problems due to the fall in the housing market and the various derivative products sitting around like land mines. The U.S. needs to get its' debt under control.

re: #106 MandyManners

Why does Google Maps show the roads in Kazakhstan? Uzbekistan? Kyrgyzstan? Turkmenistan?

Because they happen to be in the database. You should find all of the US and Canada, and most of Western Europe. Other places are highly dependent on whether or not they have been processed yet. That happens to great extent by a heirarchy of need, depending on who wants to pay for what. I would suggest that we have or had troops based in the stans, which may be why the roads are labeled in Google Maps.

re: #93 galloping granny

Got it. Thanks.

re: #102 JHW

I've been careful to keep my comments to what I actually know a little about. I'm not military, and I know that my knowledge is really limited.

But the politics of this are pretty obvious, and - unless we literally have allowed our capability to decay to the ridiculous extent others seem to think it has - we have to push back. Russia has to be ejected from Georgia, and humiliated, or we've given the Bear the green light. To say nothing of China's ambitions for Taiwan, and every other regional bully.

re: #109 sattv4u2

They traded their vowels to get some roads

The first time I went to Warsaw, I spent a good amount of time at home trying to pick up enough Polish to get arrested or something.

I was speaking a an English speaking Pole while there and mentioned that playing "Wheel of Fortune" in Poland must be expensive, considering the vowels must cost a fortune.

He didn't think that was too funny.

Uh, the Russian invasion of Georgia was a defeat for the Russians? Not.

This article is both fantasy and beside the point. It only matters that the Russian military is a diamond point on a stick if we call their bluff. That means shattering the diamond, or shattering the stick. We've done neither. So far, Game Russia.

And who's bluffing more at the moment? The U.S. or Russia? If both sides laid down their hands, who would win?

I'm not saying we can't turn this around. I'm just saying we haven't done that yet, and with this lame duck Administration, I see no evidence we'll do it in the near future.

re: #111 freedomplow

Bought and paid for.

re: #115 Dianna

No disagreement there.

re: #118 Dianna

Bought and paid for.

Looks like Putin learned well the "Oil for Food" lesson that Saddam taught.

re: #11 rawmuse

Here is my previously mentioned article.

They sent a manned aircraft to do a mission that we would now send a drone to do. They are way behind the curve.

re: #113 galloping granny

Armenia? Azerbaijan?

re: #120 FurryOldGuyJeans

He learned it from American lobbyists.

re: #104 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Good, innit, like ... especially erdogan, Turkey's PM calling for the USA to 'share their power'.
Al those who talk here about how Turkey doens't like russia, and might perhaps fight in Georgia - please do keep in mind that under that president Turkey is on a slow and surreptitious way to a full-fledged Islamic Republic.

It would seem to me that more arm-twisting vis-a-vis the Europeans is needed, not an embrace of Turkey as the NATO standard bearer in Europe ...

Most of the hyperventilating screaming that nobody is on the US side comes either straight out of Moscow, as in the FSB plants here and elsewhere on the web, or through discredited mouthpieces such as the Grauniad. We shall see what happens in Turkey and Germany and France and India. America will make a decision about Iran. China will make decisions about Iran and Russia. Personally I think Putin is in a very bad spot and would have a hard time finding anyone willing to sell him life insurance.

re: #118 Dianna

Not to put too fine a point upon it, but Schroeder's transparently a whore for his Russian masters. If I were German, I'd strip him of his right to be called "Germany's" anything. Does he really speak for Germany and the German people?

re: #123 Dianna

He learned it from American lobbyists.

That too, sad to say.

re: #106 MandyManners

Why does Google Maps show the roads in Kazakhstan? Uzbekistan? Kyrgyzstan? Turkmenistan?

Because, iirc, these are palces where the US Armed Forces have established bases for the invasion of Afghanistan, way back then ...

Too bad the Georgian ground forces , air force and navy were ridiculously bad. They did manage to hit some planes though with SAMS. That was cool.

re: #22 jaunte

You can just imagine the sprouting of "Free Siberia" bumper-stickers on the left coast.

No actually, I can't.

I question the basic premise of this story about the quality of Russia's military might. Russia is exporting 7 million barrels per day of oil. Thus, they are generating over $700 million per day. That kind of oil money can build a lot of tanks. I would be more concerned about the ability of the USA to maintain its military capability.

re: #24 Dizzy26

It would seem that the bear has little (or no )ability, to manufacture any replacement 'ARMS' to continue in the event of big losses.

Perhaps a few in place 'moles' could raid factories and REALLY destroy their response!

They used to shoot "wreckers" you know.

MS Maps has them.

Schroeder, Germany's Petain.
Where is his little piano?

re: #111 freedomplow

Germany's Schroeder says Georgia sparked fighting Aug 16 2008

Who pays the piper calls the tune ...
Schroeder gets his income from oil/gas-pipeline deals with Moscow ...

re: #33 lawhawk

Is love of freedom a crime to our media?

Yes, it is.

re: #122 MandyManners

Armenia? Azerbaijan?

Mandy, I told you why some countries are in the database and some are not. There are just two companies in the world that produce this data these days. I am not a principle in either of them so I have no direct explanation for why Armenia might be in the database while Georgia is not, other than someone at some point collected the data for Armenia, processed it and included it and this has not yet been done for Georgia.

There is nothing at all nefarious going on. Google Earth has clear, detailed satellite photos of Georgia. That Google Maps does not simply says that the data has not been translated from photo to database.

re: #55 galloping granny

But of course. "Pravda" means "truth".

re: #112 yenta-fada

Great post! We are waging economic wars (i.e. resource wars) on many fronts.
One of the early terror trials had the Islamist screaming "The dollar is dead!"
A careful reading of most business sections show expanding problems due to the fall in the housing market and the various derivative products sitting around like land mines. The U.S. needs to get its' debt under control.

What is most imperative for the US at this point is increasing our energy independence by any means necessary. The next president (dear Lord, please let it be McCain) needs to realize this is not just an economic but also a national security goal. In the 1990's our business elites swallowed this fuzzy-wuzzy Fukuyama end-of-history I'd like to buy the world a Coke globaloney that has crippled our abilities in many areas by continuing our dependence on foreign energy supplies and outsourcing critical industries. We need to revive a sense of economic patriotism in our nation's corporate boardrooms. The only Presidential candidate that had his finger on the pulse of this issue was Duncan Hunter. He predicted everything that we are experiencing right now with the Russkies and the Chicoms. But too many Republicans had Chris Matthews like tingles up their legs for Giuliani, Fred "Droopy Dawg" Thompson, Mitt Headroom, and the whacky Doctor Paul. I am glad we ended up with McCain as the nominee rather than any of the previously named because as an former military man he will be more likely to listen to the advice of his VietNam era comrade in arms.

Hmmmm.

Bush warns Russia over disputed Georgian provinces
[link provided in spin-off links]
CRAWFORD, Texas - President George W. Bush sent a stern warning to Russia on Saturday that it cannot lay claim to two breakaway provinces in neighboring Georgia, a U.S. ally, and said there was no room for debate on that point.

Searching for signs of progress, Bush told reporters at his Texas ranch that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev's signing Saturday of a cease-fire plan was an important development - "a hopeful step."

"Now, Russia needs to honor that agreement and withdraw its forces and, of course, end military operations" from Georgia, a small former Soviet state on Russia's southwest border.

The Russian foreign minister said Thursday that Georgia could "forget about" getting back the two separatist regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Medvedev also met with their leaders in Kremlin this past week, raising the prospect that Moscow could absorb the regions even though the territory is internationally recognized as being within Georgia's borders.

The U.S. says this is a monumental sticking point in resolving the more than weeklong conflict.

"A major issue is Russia's contention that the regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia may not be a part of Georgia's future," Bush said, standing alongside Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. "These regions are a part of Georgia and the international community has repeatedly made clear that they will remain so."

The Georgians got tired of Russian proxies murdering Georgian cops. The Russians have been provoking the Georgians for years. If it wasn't this, it would have been something else.

re: #133 MandyManners

MS Maps has them.

Maybe Google Maps' contract for the database does not include that particular data. Or perhaps they have not updated yet. They both get the dataset from the same exact place.

[Link: www.aboutgeorgia.net...] is down again.

On The Michael Coren Show last night, Sid Ryan (president of CUPE, the Canadian Union of Public Employees) blamed the whole thing on George Bush. Yes, that's right. Everyone else on the panel called him on it but, as usual, Mr. Ryan refused to budge.

Remember several days ago when Obama spokesperson , Susan Rice ranted that McCain was bombastic & made the situation worese, while Obama was measured & statesman like?
Forget that! They are now saying that Barry & McCain are identical on the isuue. Clearly they saw the tide against them.

Hey all y'all - asking a question I asked on the Dead Thread before I had to leave:
Has anyone seen those US Navy Ships with the Humanitarian Aid we're suposed to be sending to Georgia?
Matter of fact, has anyone seen the US Navy anywhere, and in particular any of its TEN Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups?

re: #131 larryK999

I question the basic premise of this story about the quality of Russia's military might. Russia is exporting 7 million barrels per day of oil. Thus, they are generating over $700 million per day. That kind of oil money can build a lot of tanks. I would be more concerned about the ability of the USA to maintain its military capability.

Eh............. And just where do they 'build a lot of tanks'? They do not have Tank Factories capable of 'fast re-building'.
( AND The US does, and can quickly double that production.)

Of course, it would be a durn shame if something untoward were to happen to the single tunnel that goes under the mountains between Russia and South Ossetia. Maybe right before winter. Yep. Durn shame.

re: #146 opnion

Remember several days ago when Obama spokesperson , Susan Rice ranted that McCain was bombastic & made the situation worese, while Obama was measured & statesman like?
Forget that! They are now saying that Barry & McCain are identical on the isuue. Clearly they saw the tide against them.

Hawaii Jive-O flip-flops.

There are old experienced pilots.
There are young reckless pilots.
There are no old reckless pilots.

Stalin was a Georgian.
Mikheil Saakashvili is a Georgian and a lawyer also.

Lawyers as leaders make me very nervous.

re: #124 yma o hyd

I am at the point where I regard Turkey as the best of a set of bad options. The Europeans could not twist Russia's arm, because winter's coming, and they depend on Russia for 40% of their power.

Just imagine Europe tightening their belts. They should, of course, but they won't. So rather than one bad winter, the Europeans will surrender their survival to Russian good will.

You may, of course, picture how that's going to turn out.

re: #131 larryK999

I question the basic premise of this story about the quality of Russia's military might. Russia is exporting 7 million barrels per day of oil. Thus, they are generating over $700 million per day. That kind of oil money can build a lot of tanks. I would be more concerned about the ability of the USA to maintain its military capability.

We can throw in another curiosity. Russia builds fine military equipment. Its planes and tanks are top drawer. And where there are weaknesses, the Russians make it up with better or bigger weapons. But the military has not been buying the stuff. It is being sold overseas, the theory being that the sales profit will be credited for the Russian military. But that has not happened.
So where is the money going? Things like an overpriced villa in the Riviera.
BTW, your $700M translates into 140 top of the line tanks.

re: #145 Josephine

On The Michael Coren Show last night, Sid Ryan (president of CUPE, the Canadian Union of Public Employees) blamed the whole thing on George Bush. Yes, that's right. Everyone else on the panel called him on it but, as usual, Mr. Ryan refused to budge.

Bush surely is a powerful person, in these people's minds.
When he's not being mentally incompetent, that is.

re: #147 realwest

Hey all y'all - asking a question I asked on the Dead Thread before I had to leave:
Has anyone seen those US Navy Ships with the Humanitarian Aid we're suposed to be sending to Georgia?
Matter of fact, has anyone seen the US Navy anywhere, and in particular any of its TEN Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups?

I replied to you over there realwest - half of the ten carriers are either in the Med or in the Arabian Gulf & environs. The only ship in particular that I have heard anything about is the hospital ship (Hope I think it is) - in NJ, they were saying it would take weeks to get there.

I am not at all sure that the Turks and the Russians will have any part of a US aircraft carrier battle group entering the Black Sea.

re: #145 Josephine

Three days after 9/11, I was channel surfing to try to get the burning rubble of the Towers out of my head. I stumbled upon a Canadian Broadcasting Company broadcast of an NDP Town Meeting in Toronto in which the Canadian speakers was condemning the U.S. for provoking 9/11. I was stunned.

The U.S. has some friends in Canada, but the NDP and the communist-leaning Canadian labor unions are not among them.

re: #147 realwest

I read some rumors that we sent a few extra ships into the Persian gulf recently but that's all I've heard.

re: #149 Pullus Iulius
Huh. I thought there were three tunnels - otherwise, your point is well taken!

re: #146 opnion

Remember several days ago when Obama spokesperson , Susan Rice ranted that McCain was bombastic & made the situation worese, while Obama was measured & statesman like?
Forget that! They are now saying that Barry & McCain are identical on the isuue. Clearly they saw the tide against them.

And clearly, it took Obama a few days to actually read up to learn about what it was he was trying to talk about.

re: #126 quickjustice

Well, he hasn't been in office for quite some time...so, no, he doesn't speak for Germany. He always did lean left - oh, all right, don't whack me - but this is a curiously open sale of his influence.

Black Sea is a carrier trap.

re: #157 Killgore Trout

I read some rumors that we sent a few extra ships into the Persian gulf recently but that's all I've heard.

Couple of weeks ago, couple of aircraft carriers. In response to Iran's threat to close the Straights.

re: #147 realwest

A Pentagon general already has announced that the military option is not on the table in Georgia. He forgot to bring his white flag to the news conference.

re: #159 reine.de.tout

And clearly, it took Obama a few days to actually read up to learn about what it was he was trying to talk about.

Takes awhile to read the email when you have 301 foreign policy advisers.

re: #124 yma o hyd

Minor correction, but that was in fact Gul not Erdoğan going on record but the message I'm sure would have been the same.

What's interesting is Ahmadi 'the still living terrorist' Nejad just disembarked from his first visit to Turkey without walking-away with a signed agreement for Iran to provide Turkey gas.

Not sure what to make of that.

re: #147 realwest

Matter of fact, has anyone seen the US Navy anywhere, and in particular any of its TEN Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups?

After you left, I responded to you that there are carrier groups in the Mediterannean Sea (and most likely one is headed for the Adreatic Sea) Thats just a short hop via jet across Turkey to get to Tblisis. They could make it from the carrier and back before breakfast

After I posted that, someone posted a link as to where our carriers are. IIRC, it confirmed at least 2 in the Med with another 1 or 2 in or near the Persian Gulf (again, just a short hop to Georgia from there)

re: #135 yma o hyd

Well this is absolutely true:

"The starting point of the military confrontation was Georgia's march
into South Ossetia. We shouldn't confuse things," Schroeder said,
when asked who was responsible for the outbreak of violence
between Russian and Georgian troops.

But he exposes himself for the hack that he is when he says that
S. Ossetia and Abkhazia will never be part of Georgia. That's the
Russian party line and he's toeing it.

re: #161 pat

Black Sea is a carrier trap.

Yes, and one of the technologies the Russians have been concentrating on since the end of the Cold War are anti-ship missiles.

re: #129 pat

Be fair - they didn't have many planes, and almost no armor. They've mostly trained as light fighters, and well, that didn't leave them in very good shape to resist an armored column. In addition, their artillery had been carefully spotted by the "peacekeepers" and was suppressed almost instantly.

Which doesn't take anything away from the Russian counter-battery work, btw. I was reading somewhere that that particular piece of their invasion plan was quite well done.

re: #164 galloping granny

Takes awhile to read the email when you have 301 foreign policy advisers.

LOL. Yes. Especially when one of them is an important intellectual like George Clooney.

re: #165 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Minor correction, but that was in fact Gul not Erdoğan going on record but the message I'm sure would have been the same.

What's interesting is Ahmadi 'the still living terrorist' Nejad just disembarked from his first visit to Turkey without walking-away with a signed agreement for Iran to provide Turkey gas.

Not sure what to make of that.

It is even better than that. He had gone there specifically for the signing - Turkey reneged on the deal. I hear we brought lots of pressure to bear, but we must have some really substantial card in play if that is the case.

re: #147 realwest

Hey all y'all - asking a question I asked on the Dead Thread before I had to leave:
Has anyone seen those US Navy Ships with the Humanitarian Aid we're suposed to be sending to Georgia?
Matter of fact, has anyone seen the US Navy anywhere, and in particular any of its TEN Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups?

I was at the beach all day yesterday. I didn't see any.....

re: #105 galloping granny

We put in some law or other that disallows assassinations of foreign heads of state.

I suspect we'll regret that someday.

}:)     ["What are we supposed to use, Sarge, harsh language?" -- Aliens.]

re: #155 galloping granny Is the USS Hope our only Hospital Ship? (I honestly don't know but if it is, I find that rather depressing). And as I mentioned on the DT, each one of those carriers has 6 operating rooms and the equivalent of a 200 bed hospital. And can churn out enough fresh water for approximately 5,000 people a day without affecting the carrier's ability to supply itself.
As to "I am not at all sure that the Turks and the Russians will have any part of a US aircraft carrier battle group entering the Black Sea."
Well I'm sure that the Russians, at least, won't want it - not quite so sure of Turkey (is it a member of NATO ?) but in either event, I'm not sure what either Russia or Turkey could do about it.

re: #170 reine.de.tout

LOL. Yes. Especially when one of them is an important intellectual like George Clooney.

Hey now, he has his GED!

re: #147 realwest

Hey all y'all - asking a question I asked on the Dead Thread before I had to leave:
Has anyone seen those US Navy Ships with the Humanitarian Aid we're suposed to be sending to Georgia?
Matter of fact, has anyone seen the US Navy anywhere, and in particular any of its TEN Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups?

Where are the Carriers?

I don't think CVN can make it through the Bosporus.

I haven't seen anything on the sealift yet.

re: #105 galloping granny

We put in some law or other that disallows assassinations of foreign heads of state.

I think it's actually some sort of presidential executive order.

re: #147 realwest

Hey all y'all - asking a question I asked on the Dead Thread before I had to leave:
Has anyone seen those US Navy Ships with the Humanitarian Aid we're suposed to be sending to Georgia?
Matter of fact, has anyone seen the US Navy anywhere, and in particular any of its TEN Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups?

Now there are always far fewer deployable CBGs than the number of decks in commission. During normal operations about a third of the decks are deployed a third are in training and a third are undergoing maintenance. For an emergency we can surge some but not all of the forces in the training cycle to get a little over half the fleet to a potential combat zone. The fact is that the Navy and all of our armed forces are half the size they should be. It will take at least 6 years to fix this. We are in a very tough spot.

re: #173 Kulhwch

I suspect we'll regret that someday.

}:)     ["What are we supposed to use, Sarge, harsh language?" -- Aliens.]

You mean we don't yet?

re: #20 rwmofo

I never tried to wear down a bear, but I'm positve that I'll never poke a leopard with a stick.

LOL, that was funny. Or not.

re: #154 reine.de.tout

Bush surely is a powerful person, in these people's minds.
When he's not being mentally incompetent, that is.

Yes, he said it was all Bush's fault because the U.S. was selling arms to Georgia and building up a huge arsenal (I can't remember his exact words). Michael Coren told him that the U.S., China and Russia have a huge arsenal, while Georgia is a small country with, at best, a reservist force.

I still remember one show when Michael Coren asked Sid Ryan to read the Hamas constitution. (The leaders of CUPE are actively pro-"Palestinian" and rabidly anti-Israel.) Sid Ryan was angry and he absolutely refused. He said something like, "I will do no such thing!"

For the CUPE leaders, George Bush and Israel are to blame for everything that is wrong with the world.

Oooops, I'm going out now, to drink coffee and watch while the normal people eat real food.

re: #161 pat

Black Sea is a carrier trap.

Have to agree.

re: #163 quickjustice What? Bush has said (or approved some general saying) that the military option is off the table?
Do y'all have a link to that?

re: #166 sattv4u2 Ah, thank you.

re: #170 reine.de.tout

LOL. Yes. Especially when one of them is an important intellectual like George Clooney George C. Looney.

Fixed it for ya.

re: #152 Dianna

Turkey? They did the same thing to Cyprus that Russia is doing to
Georgia!

After some unwise moves by the Cypriot government the Turks invaded
and established a phony "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" in '71.
The stated goal was "to protect the Turks" on the island, the same
BS that Russia said regarding S. Ossetia, "protecting Russians outside
of the federation".

And now the TRNC is occupied by 30,000 or so troops. International
calls to TNRC get routed through Turkey. Mail to TNRC is a maildrop in
Turkey. It's effectively part of Turkey. And this "independent country"
is recognized by no one except Turkey. This is what Russia wants with
S. Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Turkey? Why don't you want to harass and destabalize the Turkish
troops occupying an internationally recognized country (Cyprus) the
way you want to harass and destabalize the Russian troops
occupying an internationally recognized country (Georgia)?

re: #147 realwest

Hey all y'all - asking a question I asked on the Dead Thread before I had to leave:
Has anyone seen those US Navy Ships with the Humanitarian Aid we're suposed to be sending to Georgia?
Matter of fact, has anyone seen the US Navy anywhere, and in particular any of its TEN Aircraft Carrier Battle Groups?

Haven't heard a thing since the original statement real but I honestly don't think we'd want a group getting bottled-up in the Black Sea - they'd be sitting ducks from every direction, from anybody who had anything to shoot-and-scoot.

It would make more sense to put an LHA/LHD into the Black Sea with land based air cover. The amphib is a floating hospital. We have two hospital ships in commission.

re: #152 Dianna

I understand that.
However, I personally cannot stomach handing over more power to yet another islamic country.
Thats why I think a different approach,difficult as it may seem at the moment, must be sought.
As to Europe not wanting to tighten their belts - hah, those belts are being tightened as we speak, due to the much more dire economic outlook all across the countries.

It might also help if a general sort of truce were called between the animadversions of the two continents, where the one side speaks of Eurowinies and sings from songsheets provided by journos who don't seem to have a clue about the general conditions there, the politics and histories but are playing for a guffaw from the crowd - and where the other side has been fed similar guff about the USA, through their mostly loonie left media, even those with formerly proud traditions.

It looks as if the LLL from the USA have provided the tunes to the LLL in Europe, and as if the LLL in Europe is providing the ammunition for the LLL in the USA, like a reciprocal echo chamber.
Thus right-thinking peoples don't know whom or what to trust.

Its gotta stop - it really has.
Better to work on that, than to elevate an islamic state to the role of power-broker in Europe.

re: #52 rwmofo

OT: Pelosi will allow drilling in the OCS, but only if they raise costs and taxes on "Big Oil."

"Her priorities include a repeal of royalty relief for offshore drillers and an end to other tax credits for the biggest oil companies, as well as so-called use it or lose it legislation forcing energy companies to relinquish un-used leases."

Translation: Make "Big Oil" pay!

Oh wait. That will make the price of gas go up as well, right?

"Little Oil" was unavailable for comment.

Queen Nancy might allow a little more drilling, but makes damn sure the price at the pump goes up anyway... which she and her fellow Kleptocrats will hold up as "proof" that Big Oil is just out to rape the consumer.

Gawd, that woman is an idiot.

We're about to find out how rotten the NATO Alliance really is. If NATO is as rotten as Bolten says, it's time to replace it with bi-lateral defense treaties with those who want to participate in pushing back against the Russians or any other aggressors. Everyone else can kiss Russia's gluteus maximus.

Poland's demand for a bilateral defense treaty wit the U.S. is proof positive of how rotten and ineffective NATO now is perceived to be.

re: #179 galloping granny

You mean we don't yet?

I was attempting to be tongue-in-cheek.

}:)     [Presumably subtlety isn't my thing ... heh ... ]

re: #181 Josephine

Yes, he said it was all Bush's fault because the U.S. was selling arms to Georgia and building up a huge arsenal (I can't remember his exact words). Michael Coren told him that the U.S., China and Russia have a huge arsenal, while Georgia is a small country with, at best, a reservist force.

I still remember one show when Michael Coren asked Sid Ryan to read the Hamas constitution. (The leaders of CUPE are actively pro-"Palestinian" and rabidly anti-Israel.) Sid Ryan was angry and he absolutely refused. He said something like, "I will do no such thing!"

For the CUPE leaders, George Bush and Israel are to blame for everything that is wrong with the world.

Oooops, I'm going out now, to drink coffee and watch while the normal people eat real food.

Thanks for the info.
But . . . you don't eat real food?

re: #174 realwest

The Navy has two hospital ships (more like complete medical centers), USNS Mercy and USNS Comfort. I drive past Comfort when I go through Baltimore, but haven't seen her in a while. I'm guessing she's the one that would go.

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

The first time I went to Warsaw, I spent a good amount of time at home trying to pick up enough Polish to get arrested or something.

I was speaking a an English speaking Pole while there and mentioned that playing "Wheel of Fortune" in Poland must be expensive, considering the vowels must cost a fortune.

He didn't think that was too funny.

LOL. My mothers maiden name has 3 vowels, 5 consonants. We always liked to say that Polish names contain 150% of your minimum daily requirement of consonants.

re: #191 Spiny Norman

Queen Nancy might allow a little more drilling, but makes damn sure the price at the pump goes up anyway... which she and her fellow Kleptocrats will hold up as "proof" that Big Oil is just out to rape the consumer.

Gawd, that woman is an idiot.

McCain should run against Pelosi as much as against Obama. If Palin is his VP choice she would be perfect for that.

re: #9 theheat

Whenever people speak in absolutes, they're usually dead wrong. I wouldn't underestimate Russian forces, nor do I feel any better because Stuart Koehl chooses to do so.

Good point. I hope the assessment is correct but seems I heard the same thing in '65 about a little band called The National Liberation Front.

re: #185 Colonel Panik

Fixed it for ya.

Hm. Second time you've had to fix it for me. You'd think I'd get it sooner or later.

re: #64 Sharmuta

I don't doubt that Russia would go nuclear over a Chinese invasion. That is an existential threat.

re: #126 quickjustice

Not to put too fine a point upon it, but Schroeder's transparently a whore for his Russian masters. If I were German, I'd strip him of his right to be called "Germany's" anything. Does he really speak for Germany and the German people?

Give them whatever worked so well against Jimmy Carter...

These apologists count on the fact that the third dimension is lost in the Western perception. Look at cartoons like this or this or this. In the Western mind Georgia seems to be a flat country. This writer, though his suggestions remind of the Carter-Afghanistan debacle (and the Caucasian mujahideen are waiting for development aid), at least has in mind that it is a mountaineous country. The Greater Cacausus ridge is the natural border between Russia and Georgia, and this is why any presence of Russian troops south of that ridge is the proverbial camel nose in the tent.

re: #197 lifeofthemind

McCain should run against Pelosi as much as against Obama. If Palin is his VP choice she would be perfect for that.

BINGO!

re: #151 J'accuzzi

And your point is?

re: #195 Pullus Iulius
Oh, thanks! What about the Hope?

re: #165 aboo-Hoo-Hoo

Yep, that lacking deal between Turkey and Iran was briefly mentioned here yesterday - it is a very intrigueing piece of news, and a thoughtful analysis of what went on there would be more than welcome.

It is in fact very surprising in view of the current situation, with that pipeline through Georgia terminating in Turkey.

Would love to know what happened there ...

re: #125 lifeofthemind

Personally I think Putin is in a very bad spot and would have a hard time finding anyone willing to sell him life insurance.

Outside of San Francisco, Boston, New York, or Denver, that is.

re: #168 Colonel Panik

Ever heard of Aegis?

re: #203 ploome hineni

At least England and France declared war on Germany. It was a war they weren't ready for, but they honored that treaty obligation, unlike their contemptible treatment of the Czechs and the Austrians.

Events are moving very quickly, the Eastern European fat ladies are starting to sing:
Ukraine Says Ready to Work With West on Missile Defense
Ukraine to Join in US led Missile Shield
Ukraine's Top Military Official requests Defense Spending Increase

re: #10 Sharmuta

It's occurred to me that if anyone wanted to take a potshot at Russia right now, Russia would be hard up for anyone coming to their defense. Brilliant strategy there, putin.

If China or someone took this as an open door to attack Russia, we'd probably be stupid enough to step up and help Russia and get spit in the face for our help...

....

I know quite a few Russians. They have a small professional group of soldiers that run their military. These soldiers are half decent fighters. The bulk of their military is draftees that don't want to be soldiers and mostly hope to go back home in one piece someday. I've also known a few Russian draft dodgers. Russians will naturally tend to be patriotic and support their country no matter how idiotic the cause—until their sons begin to return in body bags (Afghanistan). Their military is fragile, but that said, it is always stupid to underestimate an enemy—Somalia remind anyone of anything?

re: #12 Kulhwch

The Georgians should probably take a look back at who's twisted the bear's nads in the past, and take lessons from them.  Afganistan is a very good textbook to read in that light.

}:P     [I never thought I'd be saying "Damn the Russians" in this day and age ... ]

Someone needs to rip em right off.

re: #190 yma o hyd

If we used Turkey for a staging area, would that be acceptable?

re: #167 whatdafuq

Good thing he's out of German politics - I don't think even his party comrades would have swallowed that.

(OT - I have to say that Angela Merkel is growing in stature. Like may, I had lots of reservations, but I'm glad its her, and not a leftie who is the current Chancellor of Germany.)

re: #205 realwest

According to Project Hope, the SS Hope was the world's first peacetime hospital ship, and was retired in 1974. I was wondering the same thing myself. Time flies.

re: #19 Kulhwch

"Yoo hoo, China, look ... you can see Russia's knickers, they're bent over Georgia so far ... "

}:/     [Tough call on our part though: what to do if China DID take Russia ... ]

A tough call?
Ah ok, you mean should we sit back and eat popcorn with coke to enjoy the show or go for the McDonald's Super-meal with extras and stay tuned right till the finish.

Gotcha.

re: #211 David IV of Georgia "Somalia remind anyone of anything?"
Yeah, Bill Clinton.

re: #212 Aylios

}:)     [Absolutely no argument from me on that ... ]

I think that a huge backlash against Russia by it's former Soviet bloc alllies is happening now. They are all clamoring to join NATO ...

Anyone know where I can find some good pictures of the destruction of GEorgia? Who is blogging this on site?

re: #171 galloping granny

re: #206 yma o hyd

Ahmadi's been jerking-around potential clients with varying prices and deals, India and Pakistan have been more verbal than most about Tehran's mucking-about but even they are pretty damned quiet about the details. ...I would suspect it has more than a little to do with their respective relationships with us.

re: #220 DistantThunder

Michael Totten is on the way. Haven't heard of anyone else.

re: #191 Spiny Norman

Gawd, that woman is an idiot.

The difference between stupidity and evil is who it effects.

re: #60 galloping granny

A friend just sent me this - WOAH! This is what you call "Telling it like it is!"

[Link: www.atimes.com...]

Required reading!

re: #40 Ruthless
That's awesome Ruthless, you ought to be writing editorials!

re: #220 DistantThunder

Anyone know where I can find some good pictures of the destruction of GEorgia? Who is blogging this on site?

[Link: www.gettyimages.com...]

re: #220 DistantThunder

Anyone know where I can find some good pictures of the destruction of GEorgia? Who is blogging this on site?

The only one I know about is at FoxNews.

re: #192 quickjustice

We're about to find out how rotten the NATO Alliance really is. If NATO is as rotten as Bolten says, it's time to replace it with bi-lateral defense treaties with those who want to participate in pushing back against the Russians or any other aggressors. Everyone else can kiss Russia's gluteus maximus.

Poland's demand for a bilateral defense treaty wit the U.S. is proof positive of how rotten and ineffective NATO now is perceived to be.

I don't think its rotten, I think it has gone soft (peace-dividend, anyone?) after the fall and break-up of the Soviet Union.
One the one hand, the ll beancounters in all NATO states, right across the board, have cut down on expenditure, size, equipment and development, of their Armed Forces, cutting it right abck to the bone (while the left jubilated - pity the saved dosh didn't mean lower taxes but only ever more bureaucrats!).
On the other hand, you have personnel right across the board whor egard thsi as a cushy job, lots of dinners, parties, not many decisions, long talks - nice, but again, too many chiefs, not enough indians. And no experience in real crisis decision making any longer.
Real comabt-experienced commanders wouldn't be seen dead at NATO headquarters - wasn't one of their chiefs a certain Wesley Clarke?

So - a root-and-branch reform is needed, and I'dl ove to have Bolton wield the iron broom here as well - but rotten it isn't, just tons of dead wood.

re: #203 ploome hineni

bilateral defense treaty with Poland

woo hoo

remember the last such treaty, Poland and England?

Poland must agree to some level of military status/preparedness

The Poles have been rapidly building up their military over the past few years, modernizing everything from aircraft (they've been replacing their MiG 21's and 29 and Su-22's with F-16's) to small arms (they are now building and fielding an AK variant chambered for 5.56mm NATO to standardize ammo with NATO forces). They have an aviation factory that is turning out HIND attack helicopters. They've been training with US, Swedish and Israeli advisors and have gained combat experience in Iraq. The Poland of 2008 is not the Poland of 1938.

Perhaps intentionally the Russian threat yesterday came on Poland's Army Day, when they celebrate the 1920 victory of the Polish army over the Soviet army in the "Miracle on the Vistula".

I still think back incredulously at Clinton's "Re-Inventing Government" farce, led by Al Gore, the only place they could find to cut any fat was the US military, several Army divisions, Air Force Wings and Navy ships disbanded, cut or axed. The world wasn't dangerous anymore, and we could "invest" in programs, otherwise known as buying votes.

re: #213 Dianna

If we used Turkey for a staging area, would that be acceptable?

Oh yes it would - but remember what they did, refusing transit to US troups going into Iraq, at the last minute ...

re: #229 Colonel Panik

Thanks for that info - so it was again a well-planned 'outburst', rather than some Russian general letting rip ...

re: #9 theheat

Whenever people speak in absolutes, they're usually dead wrong. I wouldn't underestimate Russian forces, nor do I feel any better because Stuart Koehl chooses to do so.

That's right. You can't type or wish away 10,000-15,000 tactical and strategic nuclear warheads.

re: #208 Dianna

Ever heard of Aegis?

Yes. And it is an impressive system, but I'd still be cautious about carrier group operations in such a limited space and hostile area.

And unfortunately we no longer have the Tomcat, which provided a much bigger CAP space over our fleets than the present Super Hornets.

re: #233 Sol Roth

That's right. You can't type or wish away 10,000-15,000 tactical and strategic nuclear warheads.

The might have that many, but only a fraction are in play. The SSBN's are not a factor, if they could get to sea they would never get a chance to launch. The Bombers the ones they could get in the air wouldn't get close. Their land based missiles are a mixed lot, it's doubtful any of the liquid birds are launch-able, only the solid rocket one are reliable and maintenance on those has been cut back.

It not about number of warheads, it the nuclear exchange calculation. In nuclear terms Russian has only a partial first strike capacity, they have no counter strike. On the other hand our triad is fully operational.

It would suicide for Russia to go that route they would not survive.

re: #131 larryK999

I question the basic premise of this story about the quality of Russia's military might. Russia is exporting 7 million barrels per day of oil. Thus, they are generating over $700 million per day. That kind of oil money can build a lot of tanks. I would be more concerned about the ability of the USA to maintain its military capability.

First of all, the fact that they are grossing $700 million a day means very little. The question is how much of that gross is actually available for military use. Lots of it has to go for other gov't functions including social services, and I suspect there is a lot of corruption and wastage, meaning they're not getting the full effect of the money they have.

Next issue, is that its not just quantity, its quality. Spending lots of money on inferior or easily defeated equipment is pretty easy to do. Ultimately, no matter how good the equipment, the training and quality of the soldiers manning it matters more.

Lastly, no matter what the cash situation, there is still a tactical and logistical reality on the ground. Having 10,000 tanks doesn't help when there are only 2 or 3 passes that the tanks can go through, and they are easily blocked.

I'd say the Russians already have proven themselves tough adversaries. And I haven't seen anything suggesting anything different.

Koehl says the Russian military is a "paper tiger"? You only prove that by shredding the paper.

If the Russians intend to remain in Georgia in force for longer than 2 months top, it's going to be a cold miserable winter for them. That situation is tailor made for aysmmetrical warfare,which is precisely what's in store, unless I'm grossly mistaken.

Don't believe the Russian military, in it's present readiness, is up to the task of countering a determined insurgency that the Georgians could institute.

re: #139 Colonel Panik

Its pretty clear from his comments that McCain understands that the recent spike in oil prices has been funding most of the world's bad actors and dictators, like the Soviets, Iran, etc. From that sort of foreign policy perspective, McCain is actually probably the strongest candidate in this election across the board.

Meanwhile, its actually not at all clear to me that Obama even understands this fundamental point, let alone that he would be prepared to do anything about it.

If the price of oil were to go back to $60/bbl Iran, Russia, and Venezuela would all be sucking wind.

The comment about a small, hard diamond point mounted on a wooden stick sounds vaguely reminiscent of the actual state of the United States military and the actual status of a variety of historical enemies of the Soviet Union. In the case of the United States that stick is made from a wood softer than balsa wood, all of any hardness that may be found in it, is concentrated in the daily activities of the residents of San Francisco and the like. The country that mounted and carried out a more than effective, victorious, titanic two ocean struggle against two proponents of world wide fascism has degenerated into a coast to coast, modern version of Soddom and Gommorrha, unwilling and unable to defend itself from attacks from without, being so self indulgent, pleasure seeking, rotten, and corroded from within.

We can do nothing and will be unable to do anything until the Liberals are a minority and the Republican party has been politically cleansed. Unfortunately too many people are addicted to the hand-outs the Liberals give. So that isn't going to change anytime soon.

President Barack and Liberalis are running on the Surrender America ticket and roughly half the country is blind to it.

re: #237 quickjustice

I'd say the Russians already have proven themselves tough adversaries. And I haven't seen anything suggesting anything different.

Koehl says the Russian military is a "paper tiger"? You only prove that by shredding the paper.

Against who?
Russian tactics and hardware have had their asses handed to them every time they've go up against Western tactics and hardware. It is well known, Russia has moral, maintenance, supply, and readiness issues.

Russia vs. Georgia proves a sixth grade bully can knock down a first grader and take his lunch money.

Don't know if anyone has mentioned anything like this , but I just looked up statistics form Chernobyl. It occurred to me that even though the military might be weak, they may not be afraid to use nukes, as the fallout from chernobyl was not as disastrous as anticipated. In other words, they can bomb and then go in to clean up and run the place in relatively short while.

>The Chernobyl accident in 1986 was the result of a flawed reactor design that was operated with inadequately trained personnel and without proper regard for safety.
>The resulting steam explosion and fire released at least five percent of the radioactive reactor core into the atmosphere and downwind.
>28 people died within four months from radiation or thermal burns, 19 have subsequently died, and there have been around nine deaths from thyroid cancer apparently due to the accident: total 56 fatalities as of 2004.
>An authoritative UN report in 2000 concluded that there is no scientific evidence of any significant radiation-related health effects to most people exposed. This was confirmed in a very thorough 2005-06 study.
more info here

The pathetic state of Russia's conventional forces is completely irrelevant here. Their nuclear forces are still very formidable. And therefore, nether we nor NATO, are going to take any military action. Russia understands this very well.

It wouldn't surprise me at all, in fact, if rather than honoring the ceasefire agreement, the Russians merely press on and take the Georgian capital and depose the current government. There would be all sorts of UN and US yada-yada, but no action. The Russian "out" will most likely be the installation of a "transition government" (of their choosing, of course) and a suspensin of the Gergian constitution until some vague future election can "restore order". In the meantime, the Russians will park their forces in the breakaway provinces until further notice.

The Russians have learned the "clean and jerk" move well. They know they can get away with it, so they'll do it and not worry about the resolutions, condemnations, and other assorted yapping from the West.

In the meantime, Ukraine should start worrying. They're next on Russia's hit list.

re: #242 jcm

To track your metaphor, the Sixth grade bully gets away with it, and terrorizes everyone on the playground, until a larger classmate, or a teacher, intervenes.

So where's the "teacher" here?

re: #235 jcm

The might have that many, but only a fraction are in play. The SSBN's are not a factor, if they could get to sea they would never get a chance to launch. The Bombers the ones they could get in the air wouldn't get close. Their land based missiles are a mixed lot, it's doubtful any of the liquid birds are launch-able, only the solid rocket one are reliable and maintenance on those has been cut back.

It not about number of warheads, it the nuclear exchange calculation. In nuclear terms Russian has only a partial first strike capacity, they have no counter strike. On the other hand our triad is fully operational.

It would suicide for Russia to go that route they would not survive.

We maintain a strategic deterrent of parity or above for what reason?
Billions of dollars in maintaining a stockpile for what threat?

A full exchange has always been suicidal. However, I'm sure you don't intend to categorically discount the either inadvertent or deliberate, rogue deployment of a tactical device/delivery system. They've already threatened to nuke Poland.

I understand your calculus, really I do. I just don't share your faith in the predictability of Communists or terrorists (or both working together) armed with thermonuclear weapons.

re: #244 THX-42

Another thing that kind of bothers me, all this strategy and tactics being discussed and no one has either mentioned or considered, like a US commander would have to do, is our right flank. That's Afghanistan and a google search shows, to a certain extent, in the most general manner how and through what countries it is resupplied. It was a topic of discussion earlier this year between NATO and Russia.

re: #245 quickjustice

To track your metaphor, the Sixth grade bully gets away with it, and terrorizes everyone on the playground, until a larger classmate, or a teacher, intervenes.

So where's the "teacher" here?

Bluntly put we are.
We either deal with it or it stands.
For the rest of the story read European history from Rhineland '36 to May '45.

re: #240 wolfgang

The comment about a small, hard diamond point mounted on a wooden stick sounds vaguely reminiscent of the actual state of the United States military and the actual status of a variety of historical enemies of the Soviet Union. In the case of the United States that stick is made from a wood softer than balsa wood, all of any hardness that may be found in it, is concentrated in the daily activities of the residents of San Francisco and the like. The country that mounted and carried out a more than effective, victorious, titanic two ocean struggle against two proponents of world wide fascism has degenerated into a coast to coast, modern version of Soddom and Gommorrha, unwilling and unable to defend itself from attacks from without, being so self indulgent, pleasure seeking, rotten, and corroded from within.

You mean like the armored pussies that made the most rapid advance in history to take Baghdad and the third largest army in the world, or the pansies that are currently fighting a two front war against Islamonaziism on the other side of the world?

re: #245 quickjustice

To track your metaphor, the Sixth grade bully gets away with it, and terrorizes everyone on the playground, until a larger classmate, or a teacher, intervenes.

So where's the "teacher" here?

Don't ask/Don't tell.

re: #246 Sol Roth

We maintain a strategic deterrent of parity or above for what reason?
Billions of dollars in maintaining a stockpile for what threat?

A full exchange has always been suicidal. However, I'm sure you don't intend to categorically discount the either inadvertent or deliberate, rogue deployment of a tactical device/delivery system. They've already threatened to nuke Poland.

I understand your calculus, really I do. I just don't share your faith in the predictability of Communists or terrorists (or both working together) armed with thermonuclear weapons.

Russians / communist are rational (in their terms) the might want control of the world, but know blowing it hell and gone is a losing proposition.

The Soviets and Russia maintain a massive defensive posture because of a deep cultural paranoia, they simply do not understand deep down we have no desire to conquer them.

The Madhi Islamists see blowing the world to hell and gone as a win!

Big difference.

re: #251 jcm

Russians / communist are rational (in their terms) the might want control of the world, but know blowing it hell and gone is a losing proposition.

The Soviets and Russia maintain a massive defensive posture because of a deep cultural paranoia, they simply do not understand deep down we have no desire to conquer them.

The Madhi Islamists see blowing the world to hell and gone as a win!

Big difference.

Then why do we maintain over 9,000 warheads and a triad of delivery systems?

re: #240 wolfgang

has degenerated into a coast to coast, modern version of Soddom and Gommorrha

Not to mention our nation's declining spelling skills.

Go read John Keegan's The Iraq War if you really think the US military is a rotten balsa wood stick. Get some education.

This invasion is the best sales incentive for the United States proposed Defense Shield, that any reasonable human being could ask for. The small countries bordering Russia will be lining up in droves to protect themselves from this marauding bear. If Russia was the sincere protector that she would have you believe, she would be requesting United Nations support. This is a farce. This might even disgust the American left. Cancel that. If you liked Che, you'll love Putin.

re: #210 JHW

Events are moving very quickly, the Eastern European fat ladies are starting to sing:
Ukraine Says Ready to Work With West on Missile Defense
Ukraine to Join in US led Missile Shield
Ukraine's Top Military Official requests Defense Spending Increase

This reinforces my belief that no matter how awed people are now by Putin's big, salty, chocolate balls, this move is a net loser for Russia.

re: #252 Sol Roth

Then why do we maintain over 9,000 warheads and a triad of delivery systems?

Because we're... planning on conquering Russia, and ruling their radioactive wastelands as our colonies?

re: #255 Occasional Reader

This reinforces my belief that no matter how awed people are now by Putin's big, salty, chocolate balls, this move is a net loser for Russia.

Chef got whacked and Isaac Hayes just passed away. Putin's balls, uh, I don't want to think about it.

re: #256 Occasional Reader

Because we're... planning on conquering Russia, and ruling their radioactive wastelands as our colonies?

OR you can do better than that.

re: #41 rawmuse

I hear Eric Prince (founder) speak recently and he said, without equivocation, that he is getting out of the business.

Where and when was that?

If it's true what Koehl and Peters both say; that Russian air forces have tried multiple times to hit that gas pipeline, and failed; by the standards of this day and age, that' ASTONISHINGLY bad performance. That's like World War II stuff. For the US military, that job would take one pass, with one plane, dropping one bomb.