can i evolve myself from monkey & pigs ?

It will be streamed on cnn.com. Should be fun.

Eventually, I came to the conclusion, through my study of the Bible and science, that the two positions of evolution and creation just could not fit together

Seems he evolved backwards.

I'm not expecting much from tonight's dog and pony show.....

Warren said he won’t play the role of a political pundit or ask “gotcha” questions, but rather tackle four areas of interest: the role of the presidency in government, leadership, the candidates’ worldviews and America’s role internationally.

It's going to be pre-approved softball questions with canned answers.

re: #2 Sharmuta

I m thinking ... why politics provide such peoples a political platform?

Notice - this isn't the friendly version of creationism, accepting that science and the Bible can coexist. It's the hardcore science-denying variety.

re: #4 Killgore Trout

I'm not expecting much from tonight's dog and pony show.....

It's going to be pre-approved softball questions with canned answers.

About as illuminating as throwing a wet blanket over a one wick candle.

Er...Charles..... Wanna bet?

In case you were wondering, the Saddleback Church promotes hardcore creationism, and I suspect Warren will raise the topic.

I wish he would bring up Black Theology and creationism

A. BT claims that Adam and Eve were black. If this is true, then all men
are "black" because they came from the first black parents. On what grounds
then does BT divide up mankind into black vs white and black vs yellow?
Aren't we all "black" having come from the same original black DNA?

B. BT claims that Noah, his wife and their three sons and wives were all
blacks. Yet, they also claim that the blacks descended from Ham. And they
run through the Bible looking for Hamite references to track the history
of the black race. How can this obvious contradiction be resolved ?.

Rick Wartren generally seems alright to me, but a little clueless. Remember he was on a trip to the ME and met with Bashir Assad...

Hard Core Creationism? Is that creationists with brightly colored spikey mohawks and three chord riffs?

re: #3 reine.de.tout

we need pope Pius X11 back... he tackled that insanity in pre-ww2 era too.... forgot how he bunked antisemitic pastors at that time ?

From the CNN article...

"The stakes will be especially high for McCain, who has made a strong appeal this year to social conservatives and evangelical Christians."

Well, IMHO this church certainly doesn't represent the social conservatives and evangelical Christians. If McCain is thinking that this will endear him to the hard religious right, here's barking up the wrong tree.

re: #12 loveguru

we need pope Pius X11 back... he tackled that insanity in pre-ww2 era too.... forgot how he bunked antisemitic pastors at that time ?

We need JPII back to take on the Russkies.

re: #13 Walter L. Newton

From the CNN article...

"The stakes will be especially high for McCain, who has made a strong appeal this year to social conservatives and evangelical Christians."

Well, IMHO this church certainly doesn't represent the social conservatives and evangelical Christians. If McCain is thinking that this will endear him to the hard religious right, here's barking up the wrong tree.

But to win favor on ANY Christian stage will certainly place him higher in the eyes of social conservatives and evangelicals....

re: #6 Charles

Notice - this isn't the friendly version of creationism, accepting that science and the Bible can coexist. It's the hardcore science-denying variety.

Oh, heck now - I believe science and religion can and actually do co-exist - but please don't call it a "friendly version of creationism". I really don't want to be associated with that term at all.

Ho hum. I am so underwhelmed . . .

So this will be a purpose driven dog and pony show?

If having a creationist host a forum is what it takes to get Barack Obama to share a stage with John McCain in an unscripted environment, then I am OK with it. Hell, if it takes an invitation from the DI for Obama to show up to another, I won't care.

Fact is they won't spend much time on creationism. That said, McCain better walk around that land mine gingerly.

It was very important for religionists of old to insist that the earth was flat, and that the earth was the center of the universe. Once those fallacies were disproven, it turns out that they were never really that important to the basic doctrines of Christianity in the first place.

Once they turn the teleprompter off, it's going to be like nails on a chalkboard with Manchurian's stuttering. I'll be cleaning my guns.

As long as this moderator doesn't ask which came first...John McCain or the Dinosaurs.

And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

re: #11 Colonel Panik

Hard Core Creationism? Is that creationists with brightly colored spikey mohawks and three chord riffs?

More like 80s hair bands:

I assume that the Q & A is Rick Warren? If it is, his assertion that friends came to Christianity before him is odd. I saw two ministers interviewd who are friends of his & they claimed claimed that Warren is a 4th generation Baptist Minister

The Dems are frightened to their pink painted toe nails that whites will flock to the Republican party. They fear letting the blacks control, even as they talk about how open they are.. it's whites every place in the party control structure.. and blacks carrying the coffee to them.

/black mayor gets throw under the bus.. over a few criminal indictments.. whats the Dems coming to.. law and order?

Let's see...Georgia is in a Soviet invasion. We have problems with Islamic nut-cases. We have kids in school who can't read and here in CA we have an unemployment rate of 7.3%.

But we're worried about "creationism" in the schools.

If McCain spends more than 5 seconds talking about this crap, I am going to be royally pissed off.

On CNN’s “The Situation Room” earlier this week, Warren said he won’t play the role of a political pundit or ask “gotcha” questions, but rather tackle four areas of interest: the role of the presidency in government, leadership, the candidates’ worldviews and America’s role internationally.

But will obama be allowed a teleprompter?

The answer to the question, "Is evolution part of God's plan?" is very clever. It allows room for the scientist to come into the organisation without putting pressure on him/her but raises the expectation that they will come round to the right idea.

(First message - please be kind)

My religion is whatever is true. If science discovers something, then that is part of my religion. But the science has to be real - none of this agenda driven science regarding gender, or humans and dinosaurs, or global warming.

There sure seems to be a large huge group of pompous, know-it-all
know nothings around here today.

Unless you have met, and listened to Pastor Rick, I would suggest you
read his books, (and note his accomplishments), before judging him, or
the outcome of the Civil Forum.

re: #13 Walter L. Newton

From the CNN article...

"The stakes will be especially high for McCain, who has made a strong appeal this year to social conservatives and evangelical Christians."

The media is in love with saying how high of a hill McCain has to climb.

Obama is the unproven candidate. And he never "closed the deal" in the Dem primaries. Obama is the one who has the uphill battle, regardless of how much the media pushes from behind.

Think I'll watch Olympic thumb twiddling instead. Damn judges will jyp us again.

How in the world did this get set up?

re: #20 DistantThunder

Very True. And the anxiety had nothing to do with the bible. In

re: #14 Colonel Panik

who ever comes, but i think its must to separate religion and politics..... it usually got shocked when these psudeo-secular politicians like obama, clinton from left goes in bad with most radical religious fanatics (including that of islam)..

though politics is never for freedom, and it always means to control masses... what I learned is that those conservatives are far more better then the self-proclaimed psuedo-seulars .... at least the conservatives (except those from islam) do follow the golden rule of respecting human life...

re: #26 scott in east bay

Let's see...Georgia is in a Soviet invasion. We have problems with Islamic nut-cases. We have kids in school who can't read and here in CA we have an unemployment rate of 7.3%.

But we're worried about "creationism" in the schools.

If McCain spends more than 5 seconds talking about this crap, I am going to be royally pissed off.

ditto

re: #27 Sharmuta

But will obama be allowed a teleprompter?

I'll bet Obama is getting the questions ahead of time. Who wants to bet?

re: #23 Charles

More like 80s hair bands:

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Somehow I don't think the permed long hair and lycra look will ever come back for men.

Reposted from last thread but on topic here.
McCain should run against Pelosi as much as against Obama. If Palin is his VP choice she would be perfect for that.

Saddleback Church What We Believe.

God is bigger and better and closer than we can imagine.

The Bible is God’s perfect guidebook for living.

Jesus is God showing himself to us.

Through His Holy Spirit, God lives in and through us now.

Nothing in creation “just happened.” God made it all.

Grace is the only way to have a relationship with God.

Faith is the only way to grow in our relationship with God.

God has allowed evil to provide us with a choice, God can bring good even out of evil events and God promises victory over evil to those who choose him.

Heaven and hell are real places. Death is a beginning, not the end.

The church is to serve people like Jesus served people..

Jesus is coming again.

As a Christian two things pop out. No direct mention of Salvation, core to Christian belief. Creationism is the 4th item.

re: #30 Dizzy26

There sure seems to be a large huge group of pompous, know-it-all
know nothings around here today.

Unless you have met, and listened to Pastor Rick, I would suggest you
read his books, (and note his accomplishments), before judging him, or
the outcome of the Civil Forum.

I read an interview with him in which he talks about millions of humanitarian aid workers that he wants to disperse around the world to solve the worlds problems. I just have to point out that 23 aid workers were SLAUGHTERED in Afghanistan so far this year. Physical security is the basis for exercising all other human rights.

re: #33 MandyManners

How in the world did this get set up?

Now that is interesting. McCain wanted the opportunity, Obama was scared to turn it down. They had a piece on Fox last night on exactly that question.

. . . , McCain is bright enough to avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, he knows its unprofitable.

re: #42 pat

Now that is interesting. McCain wanted the opportunity, Obama was scared to turn it down. They had a piece on Fox last night on exactly that question.

Obama is the big coward. I'll bet he's anguishing over a VP choice - and no, Mr Obama, you can't vote Present.

McCain should dismiss Creationism by saying that it is a self indulgent movement like many others that people use to improve their self esteem at the expense of the education of the nation's children. We cannot afford it during perilous times. Make a reference to the stress on good basic education that swept the country after the Soviets launched sputnik.

re: #41 DistantThunder

I read an interview with him in which he talks about millions of humanitarian aid workers that he wants to disperse around the world to solve the worlds problems. I just have to point out that 23 aid workers were SLAUGHTERED in Afghanistan so far this year. Physical security is the basis for exercising all other human rights.

Point well taken...yet he will push on....
I believe he considers it a moral DUTY!

re: #33 MandyManners

I think it was one of the few formats Obama would agree to. Softball questions from a non confrontational moderator.

This guy got his big launch from Oprah. Right there, I do not like it.
These candidates are going on with a prostelytizing religious figure but Obama will not go on Fox.
I am sure that Barry is certain that he will not be roughed up.
I really think that this type of religious interjection is inappropriate.

re: #26 scott in east bay

Let's see...Georgia is in a Soviet invasion. We have problems with Islamic nut-cases. We have kids in school who can't read and here in CA we have an unemployment rate of 7.3%.

But we're worried about "creationism" in the schools.

If McCain spends more than 5 seconds talking about this crap, I am going to be royally pissed off.

And yet there are Russians and islamists pushing creationism too. Maybe it's more relevant than you think.

McCain should say that we live in a free country and parents can teach creationism if they like, but no scientific proof has been publish about creationism, and so for today the state school must stick with evolution. The parents should have the control to supplement the curriculum AT HOME, or not.

Parental Choice. With vouchers this become trickier - but still science we can see should rule the day.

re: #47 Killgore Trout

I think it was one of the few formats Obama would agree to. Softball questions from a non confrontational moderator.

He must want to re-state his religious beliefs - I am not a hate-church believer.

When Obama is sworn in does he say So Help Me me ?

That's sad. Warren has helped a lot of people.

He's fallen into the trap of squeezing God into human parameters. It'll never work. It can always be debunked because God is much bigger than human imagination. Yet our world is able to be studied and explained in human terms because it's a construct that can be experienced physically. Which is why even the bible falls short of any explanations. Even if God gave the authors of the bible all the inspiration in the heavens, they had to reduce it to a human level to document it. Which is why it falls short. Everything human falls short.

Don't insult God by saying the bible puts a constraint on His ability to set evolution into motion. The bible is not God's rule book. Nothing is.

I know that's not what Warren thinks he's saying. But it is what he's saying and he should know better.

re: #45 lifeofthemind

McCain should dismiss Creationism by saying that it is a self indulgent movement like many others that people use to improve their self esteem at the expense of the education of the nation's children. We cannot afford it during perilous times. Make a reference to the stress on good basic education that swept the country after the Soviets launched sputnik.

I think McCain should say that since Creationism, by definition, involves a Creator, it is part of religion, and religious instruction should be done by the parents and those they chose, not dictated by state institutions, such as schools.
He can include how important religion is to have a good moral character, to get support of the religious in the audience, and that once the schools get involved, there will always be some aspects that do not agree with some students' religions.

re: #51 debutaunt

He must want to re-state his religious beliefs - I am not a hate-church believer.

I know this because it says so right there on my teleprompter

re: #51 debutaunt

He must want to re-state his religious beliefs - I am not a hate-church believer.

Wait and see...

I think the shallowness , vapidity (?) and true 'nothing- ness' of the ONE will be exposed to all.

This whole issue is conflicting for me; Not creationism versus evolution, I know where I stand there, but as a libertarian leaning person, I don't know if I like having a political forum in a religious house. As a Christian, I understand the importance of feeling out candidates, but I'm still queasy about it being in a church. Church and politics shouldn't mix. My two cents, take it for what it's worth.

re: #50 DistantThunder

McCain should say that we live in a free country and parents can teach creationism if they like, but no scientific proof has been publish about creationism, and so for today the state school must stick with evolution. The parents should have the control to supplement the curriculum AT HOME, or not.

Parental Choice. With vouchers this become trickier - but still science we can see should rule the day.

And he might add that to incorporate it into a curriculum might force the school to teach very objectionable matters as well.

re: #55 sattv4u2

I know this because it says so right there on my teleprompter

Otherwise, the stuttering would be continuous.

re: #51 debutaunt

He must want to re-state his religious beliefs - I am not a hate-church believer.

Let's hope he can keep from repeating any of the Rev. Wright's statements.
Actually, let's hope he DOES repeat them, so the country sees what he is.

Read part of an cover article in this Aug. Time mag. Warren says "he is more interested in questions that he feels are uniting such as poverty, HIV/AIDS, climate change and human rights". Seems like another global interest kind of line of questioning. To bad, I want to hear about issues affecting me and other Americans ...taxes, the economy, the war and energy independence.

re: #59 debutaunt

Otherwise, the stuttering would be continuous.

THATS why the Hollywood types are so interested in him. They're writing the script for the next 8-10 years !

re: #57 baxtrice

This whole issue is conflicting for me; Not creationism versus evolution, I know where I stand there, but as a libertarian leaning person, I don't know if I like having a political forum in a religious house. As a Christian, I understand the importance of feeling out candidates, but I'm still queasy about it being in a church. Church and politics shouldn't mix. My two cents, take it for what it's worth.

I would agree with you, but this place is characterized as a "mega-church", meaning, in my mind, a huge auditorium rather than a "church".

re: #57 baxtrice

This whole issue is conflicting for me; Not creationism versus evolution, I know where I stand there, but as a libertarian leaning person, I don't know if I like having a political forum in a religious house. As a Christian, I understand the importance of feeling out candidates, but I'm still queasy about it being in a church. Church and politics shouldn't mix. My two cents, take it for what it's worth.

yep, I 'hear' ya! Your two cents are worth more than a zillion dollars . . . !

re: #57 baxtrice
I understand and emphathize with what your saying.
But cripes, McCain asked Obama to participate with McCain in 10 town hall meetings and got turned down flat.
I think the political need for McCain to debate Obama, even if the areas are disclosed in advance, is absolutely necessary for McCain to show Obama for what he really is to the majority of the American People who really haven't got a clue about him.
I wouldn't care if they debated in a parking lot, myself.

This is not an issue for the president to address. It's a state issue.

re: #63 reine.de.tout

I would agree with you, but this place is characterized as a "mega-church", meaning, in my mind, a huge auditorium rather than a "church".

a building does not make a church. I have gone to services in "mega churches" as well as cow pastures. I get the same out of either

Frankly, I would be more inclined to query the Obama on his hard core abortion beliefs. Such as his vote on the Born Alive bill in which he clearly stated that it's perfectly fine to deny a BABY, who miraculously survives an abortion,to die like an exterminated rat in a filthy hospital utility room.This revolting fact should trouble Christians far more than politicians' views on Darwin. No matter, he won't be asked, too confrontational.

Heck, it's a local issue.

re: #68 vagabond trader

Frankly, I would be more inclined to query the Obama on his hard core abortion beliefs. Such as his vote on the Born Alive bill in which he clearly stated that it's perfectly fine to deny a BABY, who miraculously survives an abortion,to die like an exterminated rat in a filthy hospital utility room.This revolting fact should trouble Christians far more than politicians' views on Darwin. No matter, he won't be asked, too confrontational.

but he wanted to save the life of Tookie Williams. Doesn't that count?

/

re: #63 reine.de.tout

I would agree with you, but this place is characterized as a "mega-church", meaning, in my mind, a huge auditorium rather than a "church".

Being a small town girl, I never liked the "mega churches", only been to a few. I'll stick to the backwoods small ones thank you. LOL

re: #66 MandyManners

This is not an issue for the president to address. It's a state issue.

. . . , GREAT point!

re: #59 debutaunt

Otherwise, the stuttering would be continuous.

re: #24 opnion

I assume that the Q & A is Rick Warren? If it is, his assertion that friends came to Christianity before him is odd. I saw two ministers interviewd who are friends of his & they claimed claimed that Warren is a 4th generation Baptist Minister

People brought up in religious families don't necessarily buy into it at first. For many Christians, there is an "aha" moment of some sort.

Does this mean tonight's 6:30 service is cancelled? Or are they going to go straight from the normal songs into the debate?

Neither McCain nor Obama are creationists, by the way.

re: #73 Truck Monkey

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

this one is MUCH better

he wants to give a kid with an asthma attack a "breathalyzer"

re: #75 suboptimal

Does this mean tonight's 6:30 service is cancelled? Or are they going to go straight from the normal songs into the debate?

Obama probably won't know any of the normal songs, since they don't damn America.

re: #65 realwest

I understand and emphathize with what your saying.
But cripes, McCain asked Obama to participate with McCain in 10 town hall meetings and got turned down flat.
I think the political need for McCain to debate Obama, even if the areas are disclosed in advance, is absolutely necessary for McCain to show Obama for what he really is to the majority of the American People who really haven't got a clue about him.
I wouldn't care if they debated in a parking lot, myself.

What I want to know is HOW Obama can get away with not taking up McCain on his offer? McCain should probably just ambush Obama in the parking lot TO debate him, that's probably the only way it will ever happen.

re: #67 sattv4u2

a building does not make a church. I have gone to services in "mega churches" as well as cow pastures. I get the same out of either

OK. I haven't had the experience; I just always prefer smaller places.

Gah, this Warren guy sounds like a soft serve vanilla rev wright. Global poverty, HIV, Africa, blah blah, Americans last.

re: #49 Sharmuta

And yet there are Russians and islamists pushing creationism too. Maybe it's more relevant than you think.

There are also a considerable number of Creationists supporting the Russian invasion of Georgia. I consider that VERY relevant to lead me to, in part, question the push into American schools.

#33 Mandy Manners

How in the world did this get set up?

It wasn't long ago that Rick Warren invited Obama to be part of an AIDS conference there at the church. At the time, many Christians (including myself) felt it was tantamount to giving Obama and his brand of politics legitimacy.

I'm sure because of that connection, Obama feels he'd be safe there. Warren's not a political animal and is the antithesis of Jeremiah Wright, so it's a given there won't be any tough questions asked. Whenever I've seen Warren interviewed on tv, he is a humble, caring pastor who is involved in global humanitarian aid.

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans "There are also a considerable number of Creationists supporting the Russian invasion of Georgia."
Link, please?

Here's a sample of Pastor Warrens 'credibility' credentials, for what thats' worth.

Dr. Rick Warren is a pastor, global strategist, theologian, author and philanthropist. Numerous polls have identified him as "America's most influential spiritual leader." He has been listed in:

America's 25 Best Leaders
America's Most Influential Religious Leader
100 Most Influential People in the World
15 People Who Make America Great
One of America's 2 Best Communicators
100 Most Powerful (listed most credible)
100 Most Influential on West Coast
America's Pastor
America's Most Influential Pastor
Ten Best Preachers of Past 50 Years
U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT
TIME
NEWSWEEK
SAN FRANCISCO EXAMINER
FORBES
L.A. TIMES MAGAZINE
USA TODAY
CHRISTIANITY TODAY
PREACHING TODAY

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

There are also a considerable number of Creationists supporting the Russian invasion of Georgia. I consider that VERY relevant to lead me to, in part, question the push into American schools.

Oh please ,, thats like saying "there are also a considerable number of people that eat hot dogs supporting the Russian invasion",, or "a considerable amount of people that wear boxer shorts" ,, One has nothing to do with another

re: #84 realwest
See: The Discovery Institute's Pro-Russian Agenda

re: #22 Sizzlack

As long as this moderator doesn't ask which came first...John McCain or the Dinosaurs.

And I mean that in the nicest way possible.

Don't mess with John McCain...he hunted the wooly mammoth to extinction!

re: #45 lifeofthemind

McCain should dismiss Creationism by saying that it is a self indulgent movement like many others that people use to improve their self esteem at the expense of the education of the nation's children. We cannot afford it during perilous times. Make a reference to the stress on good basic education that swept the country after the Soviets launched sputnik.

That was back in the good old days, when Americans were sensible and believed in identifying the real causes of problems and applying real solutions. Now, many, perhaps most of us, prefer to identify fantasy causes for problems and apply fantasy solutions.

I don't like the idea of turning things increasingly over to the pop culture people. Like George Clooney and Oprah and Rick Warren. It's sort of pandering to the wind direction and trying not to tack too far to the right or left.

Say what you think and believe in so we know what we're getting.

And don't choose a vice -president to balance the see-saw. Pick one who has the guts and the brains to preside should you - God forbid - be disabled in some way.

re: #61 snowcrash

Read part of an cover article in this Aug. Time mag. Warren says "he is more interested in questions that he feels are uniting such as poverty, HIV/AIDS, climate change and human rights". Seems like another global interest kind of line of questioning. To bad, I want to hear about issues affecting me and other Americans ...taxes, the economy, the war and energy independence.

Your 'concerns' and opinion are answered here!
Questions from debates and town hall meetings typically deal with hot political topics like the war, the border, the price of oil and reaction to campaign statements. While important questions to ask, these tend to be short-term issues on which the candidates have repeatedly stated their positions.


The Saddleback Civil Forum will focus on the core convictions of each candidate that would shape how each one would lead and their views on America's role, direction, and culture. Each interview will be segmented into four themes:

Well all y'all it's been grand as usual, but I gotta go eat some lunch and do some more chores!
Hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you down the road.

Read CORE convictions in above thread.

I think Obamas' complete lack of eith will be on display!

I take it having formal debates on the issues that will confront the country in the future is not on the table. Instead, we will go to a mega-church(gag) and discuss frivolities. Nice.

re: #94 pingjockey

I take it having formal debates on the issues that will confront the country in the future is not on the table. Instead, we will go to a mega-church(gag) and discuss frivolities. Nice.

I kinda like to know how they intend to protect this country.

Most serious readers of Charles Johnson's highly-commented-on creation/evolution threads know that I am an evangelical Christian seriously convinced of/committed to a very literal interpretation of the Genesis account and see the earth as being less then 10K yrs old.

Having said that: I view Rick Warren as a Quisling -- an infiltrator, if you will -- to the Evangelical movement, and my objections/concerns with Warren have NOTHING to do with the creation/evolution debate.

I am sure that even the devil believes in creationism, but that doesn't mean I like him or identify him.

Just ONE example of why I don't trust him is that he invited a politically liberal group to help him come up with the questions he will ask during the debate. (What? Are there no conservatives to turn to for assistance in such a task?) Moreover, the title of the event mentions "compassion," but not "truth." A look at Harvard's seal ("Veritas") shows the first commitment of Christianity (not that Harvard is informed by this theme any longer, but its seal remains a relic testifying to an earlier time when the institution was empowered by a zeal for something more than Government-Funded, politically-correct poppycock). [P.S. Harvard was founded by Creationists!]]

I suspect that Rick Warren -- who hob-knobs with the CFR (Council on Foreign Relations) set -- is more about Rick Warren and less about the LORD Jesus Christ in most of what he does.

I do not think this event (with McCain and Obama) will be worth a bucket of warm spit, and I think McCain was unwise to attend, given the format.

Look for Warren to steal some serious bases for Obama among the less discerning occupants of pews in Evangelical congregations across the country.

re: #94 pingjockey

I take it having formal debates on the issues that will confront the country in the future is not on the table. Instead, we will go to a mega-church(gag) and discuss frivolities. Nice.

How brilliant of you

re: #95 debutaunt

PIMF I'd

re: #84 realwest

"There are also a considerable number of Creationists supporting the Russian invasion of Georgia."
Link, please?

The DI, for one. There's more links there for your perusal.

re: #95 debutaunt
That would be a good start. Or how are we going to protect the fledgling democracies in Eastern Europe from a very hungry bear.

re: #96 gunjam

No True Scotsman, eh?

re: #100 pingjockey

That would be a good start. Or how are we going to protect the fledgling democracies in Eastern Europe from a very hungry bear.

Yeah - that kind of stuff.

re: #23 Charles

More like 80s hair bands:

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

I always like the Wierd Al Yankovic parody of Bon Jovi's "Livin' on a Prayer",
"Livin' on my Hair":

Take my advice
Get it feathered and layered
Oh, oh, livin' on my hair!

I have a feeling a lot of time is going to be devoted to the abortion battle.

Huh, that was interesting, I went to post this and it said I wasn't logged in. So I logged out and logged back in and hope this post makes it:

re: #87 Killgore Trout
I saw that thread when it was new, but I musta missed the part where it said that the Disco Instute supported the Russian attack on Georgia or where it said a considerable number of Creationists would support the Russian invasion of Georgia.
Anyway, as I said, I'm outta here - hope I get the chance to see you all down the road.

I would actually want to hear the answer to a Babba Walters type of question

"If you were a tree, what type of tree would you be?"

McCain,, "Oak"
Obama,, "Willow"

cynical prediction:

Obama will get all the softball questions.
McCain will get all the religious questions that will tie him in knots.

re: #85 Dizzy26

I am an evangelical Christian and I consider Rick Warren to be a lightweight and a Quisling to the Evangelical movement.

Being published in or recognized by Newsweek is hardly an evidence of evangelical bona fides. In fact, it tends to send the opposite message: Just why does stupid-liberal Newsweek like him, anyway?

re: #105 realwest

Take care of yourself.

God doesn't want evolution in to the mix because then claims arise, that Obama is 'more' evolved than McCain -- or vise versa. It will start these polemic wars.

#57 baxtrice

This whole issue is conflicting for me; Not creationism versus evolution, I know where I stand there, but as a libertarian leaning person, I don't know if I like having a political forum in a religious house. As a Christian, I understand the importance of feeling out candidates, but I'm still queasy about it being in a church. Church and politics shouldn't mix. My two cents, take it for what it's worth.

I agree with you. Pastors should be teaching the Word of God and addressing moral issues, then leaving it up to the congregation who they'll vote for. Hosting political debates, or supporting one party over another - absolutely not.

re: #102 debutaunt

Yeah - that kind of stuff.

I've got got a question for Obama, How much Class Warfare are you and your "cronies" (sorry that's MY word and it's not a PC or fair/balanced word) going to stir up before the socialism happens?

re: #104 Charles

Oh, please, no!

Look at the possible long-term benefits of his Forum, not of short term 'issues' that wiill be resolved shortly

re: #86 sattv4u2

Oh please ,, thats like saying "there are also a considerable number of people that eat hot dogs supporting the Russian invasion",, or "a considerable amount of people that wear boxer shorts" ,, One has nothing to do with another

When the main group being militant about pushing ID/Creationism (the DI) into schools also has a public stance of supporting the Russian invasion I consider that very relevant, and very revealing. Not to mention their linkage with Islamist Creationists.

re: #104 Charles

I have a feeling a lot of time is going to be devoted to the abortion battle.

Not at this FORUM

re: #104 Charles

I don't expect anything controversial. We'll have to wait and see.

re: #107 FrogMarch

If so, McCain should say, "My religious beliefs are tangential to how I would govern. Let's discuss specific policies."

re: #112 baxtrice

I've got got a question for Obama, How much Class Warfare are you and your "cronies" (sorry that's MY word and it's not a PC or fair/balanced word) going to stir up before the socialism happens?

Obama "In MY administration, there will be no 'classes'. There will just be ME (AAAHHHHH chorus of angels) and then there will be everyone else"

re: #89 Tigger2005

That was back in the good old days, when Americans were sensible and believed in identifying the real causes of problems and applying real solutions. Now, many, perhaps most of us, prefer to identify fantasy causes for problems and apply fantasy solutions.

If Sputnik was launched today:

"Clearly, our children don't have enough self-esteem. We need to lower standards and give out more gold stars for easy accomplishments so more children will be encouraged to become scientists."

or

"The problem is that children are not learning about creationism in school. Therefore, they feel they are not special and that life is meaningless, so there's no reason to send satellites into space. The answer to Sputnik is to teach creationism in schools."

or

"So the Soviets put a satellite into space before us. There are more important issues, like stopping global warming and ending all poverty everywhere by taxing the American economy into recession and the American middle class into poverty. So why can't we just be happy for the Russians and let them have space to themselves?"

re: #115 FurryOldGuyJeans

When the main group being militant about pushing ID/Creationism (the DI) into schools also has a public stance of supporting the Russian invasion I consider that very relevant, and very revealing. Not to mention their linkage with Islamist Creationists.

How many people in the US, or better yet in the WORLD, know or even CARE about DI. And when they are revealed, they are beaten at every turn!

Charles

I have the entire media release.. May I send it to you?
I'm an old man with no tech knowledge, but I can copy and paste.

re: #93 Dizzy26

Read CORE convictions in above thread.

I think Obamas' complete lack of eith will be on display!

I FIND YOUR LACK OF FAITH DISTURBING.

re: #104 Charles

I have a feeling a lot of time is going to be devoted to the abortion battle.

Interesting: I don't suspect that will be the case, but I would hope you are correct.

The reason I doubt this is that I honestly believe Warren leans Obama, and on the abortion issue, Obama is perhaps the single most pro-abortion holder of elective office in the country, based on his voting history in the Illinois house, especially.

Thus, if Warren is trying to make Obama more palatable to the Evangelical masses (as I suspect), the LAST thing he wants is to get Obama in a position to be exposed for being as pro-abortion as he is.

We shall see, however.

re: #111 ladycatnip

#57 baxtrice

I agree with you. Pastors should be teaching the Word of God and addressing moral issues, then leaving it up to the congregation who they'll vote for. Hosting political debates, or supporting one party over another - absolutely not.

Many years ago, when I had lots of time on my hands, I was an avid student of history. Politics and religion are two very personal and private issues that people hold dear, when put together, they become explosive. See Holy Roman Empire, or See the radical Islam terrorists. No, no religion plus politics.

#104 Charles

I have a feeling a lot of time is going to be devoted to the abortion battle.

Which is totally ridiculous because neither candidate is pro-life. What a waste of our time.

My sense, based solely on the Time mag article, is that Pastor Warren will shift away from the "sin issues" like abortion and gay marriage. Warren said in the article there will be no "Christian religion test".

re: #124 brockton808

Are you claiming that Barack Obama and John McCain will not share a stage with Pastor Rick Warren tonight?

re: #76 Charles

Neither McCain nor Obama are creationists, by the way.

Maybe they should be asked whether they believe that God created the heavens and the earth?

re: #129 jaunte

Are you claiming that Barack Obama and John McCain will not share a stage with Pastor Rick Warren tonight?

how do you extrapolate that out of his post?

re: #124 brockton808

Charles, you're beginning to sound like a broken record on this issue. I'm not necessarily predisposed towards one direction or the other, but "beating a dead horse" doesn't begin to describe your obsession with this topic. I find myself relegated to the Link Viewer at the top of your home page...

So why read here? Is someone holding a gun to your head?

re: #127 ladycatnip

#104 Charles

Which is totally ridiculous because neither candidate is pro-life. What a waste of our time.

J H Christ WAIT and see you morons!@

re: #121 sattv4u2

How many people in the US, or better yet in the WORLD, know or even CARE about DI. And when they are revealed, they are beaten at every turn!

Yet they are still pushing their agenda. The point is that the ID push here is not a non-issue, at least to this voter, as some people want to say it is.

re: #130 faraway

Maybe they should be asked whether they believe that God created the heavens and the earth?

Obama,,, " I do, and surprisingly, it didn't take me that long"

re: #88 Colonel Panik

Don't mess with John McCain...he hunted the wooly mammoth to extinction!

Remember, McCain was tortured by dinosaurs.

re: #131 sattv4u2

how do you extrapolate that out of his post?

Why should someone complain about Charles posting about something which is actually happening tonight?

re: #134 FurryOldGuyJeans

Yet they are still pushing their agenda. The point is that the ID push here is not a non-issue, at least to this voter, as some people want to say it is.

They can push all they want. My son has been "pushing" his bedtime to midnight since he was 8. He's still pushing! (and at 14 he still hasn't seen midnight)

re: #132 MandyManners

So why read here? Is someone holding a gun to your head?

Was he one of those picketers yesterday?

re: #124 brockton808
Wahh fucking wahhh!

re: #124 brockton808

I think whiners sound more like a broken record.

re: #137 jaunte

Why should someone complain about Charles posting about something which is actually happening tonight?

he was posting about Charles (in the posters words) obsession with the ID debate. I must say, Charles does see it in many places where I don't. If that gets me in trouble, so be it!

re: #54 Kosh's Shadow

Couldn't agree more.

McCain can simply stand on the separation of church and state.

Just like our gov't shouldn't tell the church what to teach as doctrine, the Church shouldn't tell our state what to teach.

Again, the problem with Creationism isn't its faith-based basis per se, its trying to shove that square faith-based peg into the round hole of science.

Keep it out of the science classroom and there is no problem.

re: #108 gunjam

I am an evangelical Christian and I consider Rick Warren to be a lightweight and a Quisling to the Evangelical movement.

Being published in or recognized by Newsweek is hardly an evidence of evangelical bona fides. In fact, it tends to send the opposite message: Just why does stupid-liberal Newsweek like him, anyway?

because he wears tropical shirts instead of suits?

re: #139 debutaunt

Was he one of those picketers yesterday?

Which sign was he carrying?

re: #133 Dizzy26
Politics does not belong in a church, any church.

re: #115 FurryOldGuyJeans

When the main group being militant about pushing ID/Creationism (the DI) into schools also has a public stance of supporting the Russian invasion I consider that very relevant, and very revealing. Not to mention their linkage with Islamist Creationists.

Just so you know: I am a devoted Creationist. I have never sent a dime t the DI, as far as I can remember. I disagree with their cooperation with Islamist creationists. I disagree with their support of Russia over Georgia.

In short, if DI were dissolved tomorrow, I would still be as Creationist as I am today.

NOTE: I do support DI's approach to getting other views than simply Orthodox Darwinist Catechism being taught in school (public, private, home) classrooms. I congratulate LA State Gov Bobby Jindal for permitting some of this in his state!

re: #142 sattv4u2

There is nothing untrue about the post.

re: #124 brockton808

Charles, you're beginning to sound like a broken record on this issue. I'm not necessarily predisposed towards one direction or the other, but "beating a dead horse" doesn't begin to describe your obsession with this topic. I find myself relegated to the Link Viewer at the top of your home page...

Where you been sparky? Lot's of Georgia threads, a few iPod threads. Hop over to one of those, don't bother your little brain with this if it hurts it too much.

re: #106 sattv4u2

I would actually want to hear the answer to a Babba Walters type of question

"If you were a tree, what type of tree would you be?"

McCain,, "Oak"
Obama,, "Willow"

If Obama were asked his favorite color, he'd waffle. "Red. No, yellow, no,..."
At this point, the bridgekeeper throws him into the valley of death.

re: #124 brockton808

Charles, you're beginning to sound like a broken record on this issue. I'm not necessarily predisposed towards one direction or the other, but "beating a dead horse" doesn't begin to describe your obsession with this topic. I find myself relegated to the Link Viewer at the top of your home page...

I can understand his concern about it, but quite frankly I think a bigger problem in our school system is the undermining of American History curricula by the followers of Chomsky and Zinn who are brainwashing our youth with a leftist interpretation of American history in which it is made to seem like the United States was the only nation that ever practiced slavery, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not connected to the atrocities of the Japanese empire in the Pacific and Asia, and the Vietnam war was an unprovoked war of aggression by the United States against the peace loving Vietnamese people who only wanted to be unified by their version of George Washington, Ho Chi Minh.

re: #124 brockton808

While I actually agree that I could stand to see a bit less on Creationism, you are free to simply not read or participate in those threads.

So what's the problem?

re: #150 Kosh's Shadow

If Obama were asked his favorite color, he'd waffle. "Red. No, yellow, no,..."
At this point, the bridgekeeper throws him into the valley of death.

ya gotta love a Python reference !

re: #142 sattv4u2

And if Charles hadn't been paying attention, would we know about American creationists' ties to islamists?

re: #144 paint-right

because he wears tropical shirts instead of suits?

Huh? Ever been to Hawaii or the Phillipines? It is very hard to find an evangelical pastor in either location who wears a suit in church.

How about a question of substance?

Has Mussharaf fled Pakistan to Saudi Arabia?

re: #145 MandyManners

Which sign was he carrying?

Must have been throwing stuff.

re: #151 Colonel Panik

I can understand his concern about it, but quite frankly I think a bigger problem in our school system is the undermining of American History curricula by the followers of Chomsky and Zinn who are brainwashing our youth with a leftist interpretation of American history in which it is made to seem like the United States was the only nation that ever practiced slavery, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not connected to the atrocities of the Japanese empire in the Pacific and Asia, and the Vietnam war was an unprovoked war of aggression by the United States against the peace loving Vietnamese people who only wanted to be unified by their version of George Washington, Ho Chi Minh.

updinged

re: #146 pingjockey

Politics does not belong in a church, any church.

In you in-estimable opinion?

re: #138 sattv4u2

They can push all they want. My son has been "pushing" his bedtime to midnight since he was 8. He's still pushing! (and at 14 he still hasn't seen midnight)

Go ahead and take a Clintonist style approach to a potential threat. I won't be putting my guard down to something I consider dangerous.

re: #159 Dizzy26
Fine, yes in my opinion.

re: #82 FurryOldGuyJeans

There are also a considerable number of Creationists supporting the Russian invasion of Georgia. I consider that VERY relevant to lead me to, in part, question the push into American schools.

I'm a "hardcore creationist" that is adamently opposed to the Russian invasion of Georgia, and believe in science (regardless of what Charles of Zombie may think). So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Just because Charles found a few kooks that think Russia was right, that doesn't mean people who believe in creationism agree with them. They're two seperate issues.

Mind you, I'm not really for teaching Creationism in school, but more against Darwinism. Maybe if it was emphasized more that it is a "theory" (and yes, I understand the difference between a "theory" and a "scientific theory").

re: #144 paint-right

because he wears tropical shirts instead of suits?

I posted his churches statement of faith above.
re: #40 jcm

Saddleback Church What We Believe.

God is bigger and better and closer than we can imagine.
The Bible is God’s perfect guidebook for living.

Jesus is God showing himself to us.

Through His Holy Spirit, God lives in and through us now.

Nothing in creation “just happened.” God made it all.

Grace is the only way to have a relationship with God.

Faith is the only way to grow in our relationship with God.

God has allowed evil to provide us with a choice, God can bring good even out of evil events and God promises victory over evil to those who choose him.

Heaven and hell are real places. Death is a beginning, not the end.

The church is to serve people like Jesus served people..

Jesus is coming again.

As a Christian two things pop out. No direct mention of Salvation, core to Christian belief. Creationism is the 4th item.

That's pretty lightweight, I would pass on that church solely for lack of content in the above statement.

re: #155 gunjam

Huh? Ever been to Hawaii or the Phillipines? It is very hard to find an evangelical pastor in either location who wears a suit in church.

How about a question of substance?

The question was asked why does Newsweek like him? I think it part of it may lie in his informality.

re: #154 Sharmuta

And if Charles hadn't been paying attention, would we know about American creationists' ties to islamists?

And that affects my (and your) daily life HOW? Don't get me wrong. Any of these kooks tries to influence my kid in school or out of school, they'll meet the business end of my foot! But until then, I could give a rats ass if DI imbeds themselves up Osama Bin Ladens ass

re: #161 ploome hineni

there is always the lounge

/

I can't keep up in there, it hurts MY brain!

As McCain has said, Evolution really only poses a problem if you believe that the first few chapters of the Bible are literally true.

If you can simply accept that they are allegorical, then the rest of the Bible and most (if not all) of Judeo-Christian theology still holds up.

What so wrong about believing that God invented evolution along with all of the other natural processes that exist?

re: #147 gunjam

. . . NOTE: I do support DI's approach to getting other views than simply Orthodox Darwinist Catechism being taught in school (public, private, home) classrooms. I congratulate LA State Gov Bobby Jindal for permitting some of this in his state!

Ah, gunjam - I live in Louisiana and cannot agree with you at all on this. Many of our schools are pitifully poor, and this will simply weaken our schools more, and then everyone will be oh so surprised when scores on science portions of standardized tests begin to go down even more than they are right now.

Not to mention that there will be at least a few alert parents who will not like the dept of ed approved version of faith being taught to their children in a science package; they will remove their children, homeschool or send to private schools, thus further damaging the public school system here. Not good, not good at all.

re: #163 Jito463

I'm a "hardcore creationist" that is adamently opposed to the Russian invasion of Georgia, and believe in science (regardless of what Charles of Zombie may think). So stick that in your pipe and smoke it. Just because Charles found a few kooks that think Russia was right, that doesn't mean people who believe in creationism agree with them. They're two seperate issues.

Mind you, I'm not really for teaching Creationism in school, but more against Darwinism. Maybe if it was emphasized more that it is a "theory" (and yes, I understand the difference between a "theory" and a "scientific theory").

Learn to read what people write. I said CONSIDERABLE NUMBER, not ALL. So you go smoke whatever you want.

re: #169 reine.de.tout
I figure there's gonna be a lwasuit over that and that decision will get tossed out on its ear.

re: #151 Colonel Panik

I can understand his concern about it, but quite frankly I think a bigger problem in our school system is the undermining of American History curricula by the followers of Chomsky and Zinn who are brainwashing our youth with a leftist interpretation of American history in which it is made to seem like the United States was the only nation that ever practiced slavery, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not connected to the atrocities of the Japanese empire in the Pacific and Asia, and the Vietnam war was an unprovoked war of aggression by the United States against the peace loving Vietnamese people who only wanted to be unified by their version of George Washington, Ho Chi Minh.

Updinged again.

I agree with this too.

Most Americans (though not all) never get ANY exposure to American history outside of grade school or high school, so its important to get it right.

re: #154 Sharmuta

And if Charles hadn't been paying attention, would we know about American creationists' ties to islamists?

Um, that would be the ties of SOME American creationists with Islamists.

I am a creationist and I have no ties to Islamists, nor do I wish to.

I suspect that I am a far more typical example of an American creationist than those who do have such ties.

Once again, my son has gone into combat twice -- and that was FOR the US and AGAINST the ISLAMISTS. Guess what: He was hardly the only Christian creationist who has put his butt on the line for the US against the Islamists. In fact, in most US combat units, evangelical Christians are well-represented -- and that would include some of our combat commanders.

You apparently have an animus against evangelicals (something you are entitled to have) that apparently blinds you to some of the obvious facts I just presented.

re: #166 sattv4u2

And that affects my (and your) daily life HOW? Don't get me wrong. Any of these kooks tries to influence my kid in school or out of school, they'll meet the business end of my foot! But until then, I could give a rats ass if DI imbeds themselves up Osama Bin Ladens ass

Think 9/11/01 to see how NOT knowing about threats can affect one's daily life.

re: #160 FurryOldGuyJeans

Go ahead and take a Clintonist style approach to a potential threat. I won't be putting my guard down to something I consider dangerous.

nice ad hominum. I take an active approach. I find out who/ what/ where my kid is being taught, both in school and in our church. If someone else WANTS to expose their family to a different philosophy, I have no say to that! But apparantly you want too!

re: #170 FurryOldGuyJeans

Learn to read what people write. I said CONSIDERABLE NUMBER, not ALL. So you go smoke whatever you want.

Ooh you just reminded me, Marlboro is calling my name. BBL

This is going to be the FORMAT of the forum (not debate) tonight:

The Saddleback Civil Forum will focus on the core convictions of each candidate that would shape how each one would lead and their views on America's role, direction, and culture. Each interview will be segmented into four themes:


STEWARDSHIP: Questions on the constitution, the role of government, security, education, and energy.


LEADERSHIP: Questions on personal character, competence, convictions, and experience to be president.


WORLDVIEW: Questions on life, family, evil, freedom, Christianity, and Islam.


AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE WORLD: Questions on going to war, on America's responsibility to bless other nations, poverty and disease, human rights, religious liberty, corruption, and their vision for America.

re: #166 sattv4u2

And that affects my (and your) daily life HOW? Don't get me wrong. Any of these kooks tries to influence my kid in school or out of school, they'll meet the business end of my foot! But until then, I could give a rats ass if DI imbeds themselves up Osama Bin Ladens ass

The time to fight is before the camel's nose is under the tent.

re: #166 sattv4u2

You're right. I suppose it's not my problem until the sword is at my throat. I'll just go back to sleep now.

Or- it could be that making people aware of the problem is the first step in combating the problem, huh?

re: #177 Dizzy26

You have a link for that info?

re: #166 sattv4u2

And that affects my (and your) daily life HOW? Don't get me wrong. Any of these kooks tries to influence my kid in school or out of school, they'll meet the business end of my foot! But until then, I could give a rats ass if DI imbeds themselves up Osama Bin Ladens ass

One thing is the danger of the door being opened to having faith inserted into public schools.

Right now, Muslim workers at a USA plant have gotten the management to change holidays, swapping the traditional US Labor Day holiday for a Muslim holiday.

These doors, once opened, do not ever close. They are just opened wider and wider. Until one day, our entire way of life has changed forever, and not necessarily for the better.

re: #171 pingjockey

I figure there's gonna be a lwasuit over that and that decision will get tossed out on its ear.

I think there's one in the works already.

With the crisis in Georgia, I can't see this debate not including foreign affairs, and thus Obama is at a severe disadvantage. Can you picture the coaching and quizzing preparation going on in the Obama camp?

re: #163 Jito463

Mind you, I'm not really for teaching Creationism in school, but more against Darwinism. Maybe if it was emphasized more that it is a "theory" (and yes, I understand the difference between a "theory" and a "scientific theory").

There is no such thing as "Darwinism," any more than the Theory of Relativity is "Einsteinism."

And since you understand the difference between "theory" and "scientific theory," please understand that evolution IS a scientific theory, and deal with it.

re: #178 MandyManners

The time to fight is before the camel's nose is under the tent.

yes, and as soon as I see a "threat" to me, my family, their well being (be it physical, mental or spiritual) I will (and have ) step in

re: #180 FurryOldGuyJeans

You have a link for that info?

I have that information.

(Don't know anything about links, sorry)

re: #164 jcm
I do agree with your assessment. I feel the same way about Rev. Osteen in Houston and he is loved by many too.

#126 baxtrice

Many years ago, when I had lots of time on my hands, I was an avid student of history. Politics and religion are two very personal and private issues that people hold dear, when put together, they become explosive. See Holy Roman Empire, or See the radical Islam terrorists. No, no religion plus politics.

During my third and fourth decade on earth I used to be a huge political animal, and even believed fervently that a democrat couldn't possibly be a Christian. Being somewhere in my fifth decade, I am much less disposed to arguing politics, morality or whether one believes in evolution or creation. You're so right to say politics and religion are two very personal and private issues - when someone steps on those beliefs it definitely becomes explosive.

I feel sick at heart that Saddleback is hosting this; a townhall meeting would be a more appropriate venue.

re: #166 sattv4u2

And that affects my (and your) daily life HOW? Don't get me wrong. Any of these kooks tries to influence my kid in school or out of school, they'll meet the business end of my foot! But until then, I could give a rats ass if DI imbeds themselves up Osama Bin Ladens ass

I always wonder why people think they have to loudly announce that they aren't interested in something.

Nothing's less interesting than telling other people that they're wasting their time on something boring.

re: #179 Sharmuta

You're right. I suppose it's not my problem until the sword is at my throat. I'll just go back to sleep now.

Or- it could be that making people aware of the problem is the first step in combating the problem, huh?

hehehe ,, nice try. Please link where DI has been successful in getting their "agenda" into public schools and/ or national or local government?

re: #166 sattv4u2

And that affects my (and your) daily life HOW? Don't get me wrong. Any of these kooks tries to influence my kid in school or out of school, they'll meet the business end of my foot! But until then, I could give a rats ass if DI imbeds themselves up Osama Bin Ladens ass

I don't care what bin Laden is up to. I care what CAIR is doing. Don't think it doesn't monitor public education and religion.

re: #185 sattv4u2

yes, and as soon as I see a "threat" to me, my family, their well being (be it physical, mental or spiritual) I will (and have ) step in

The threat's already present.

re: #173 gunjam

You apparently have an animus against evangelicals (something you are entitled to have) that apparently blinds you to some of the obvious facts I just presented.

You know what they say about assuming, don't you?

And why didn't you answer my question yesterday? Are you a Calvinist?

re: #181 reine.de.tout

One thing is the danger of the door being opened to having faith inserted into public schools.

Right now, Muslim workers at a USA plant have gotten the management to change holidays, swapping the traditional US Labor Day holiday for a Muslim holiday.

These doors, once opened, do not ever close. They are just opened wider and wider. Until one day, our entire way of life has changed forever, and not necessarily for the better.

Tyson actually added the muslim holiday instead of swapping it.

re: #163 Jito463

Mind you, I'm not really for teaching Creationism in school, but more against Darwinism. Maybe if it was emphasized more that it is a "theory" (and yes, I understand the difference between a "theory" and a "scientific theory").

Evolution (not "Darwinism", which is a bulls$%t term used purely by those who deny evolution) is not a hypothesis, its a theory.

If you actually understood what that means, you'd appreciate why emphasizing it in school is irrelevant.

Perhaps you think schools should emphasize that "Newtonism" (ie the theory of gravity) is a "theory". Of that "Einsteinism" (ie the theory of relativity) is a "theory".

If you are saying that schools should teach children what the scientific meaning of the term "theory" is, then I agree with you. Most kids don't understand what it means.

re: #189 Charles

I always wonder why people think they have to loudly announce that they aren't interested in something.

Nothing's less interesting than telling other people that they're wasting their time on something boring.

huh ? wha? did you say something?

(just kidding, big guy !)

point taken

re: #195 Mark30339
You really shouldn't assume things about people you know nothing about.

One of the (admittedly minor) entertainments of these threads is watching the descent with variation of ways to tell our host "stop posting about this subject."

Most of the things I have seen posted here, regarding the event tonight, Smack of contempt prior to investigation, or something like that.

re: #192 MandyManners

The threat's already present.

Yes, indeed, the threat is here, now. Nip it in the bud . . . and before one can do any nipping, one must be aware that the threat exists, to begin with. Thus the importance of this topic.

re: #181 reine.de.tout

Right now, Muslim workers at a USA plant have gotten the management to change holidays, swapping the traditional US Labor Day holiday for a Muslim holiday.

Just to clarify :

In a news release on Friday, Tyson said it had asked the union to revise the plant’s contract and restore Labor Day as a paid holiday because some Shelbyville employees had expressed concern about the contract’s provisions.

The revised contract again makes Labor Day a paid holiday but also keeps Id al-Fitr (pronounced eed-al-FIT-tr) — which marks the end of Ramadan, the Islamic holy month of fasting — as a paid holiday for those who want it. The Muslim holiday will replace a paid personal day. Under the revised agreement, employees who do not want Id al-Fitr off can continue to take a paid personal day of their choice.

re: #151 Colonel Panik

I can understand his concern about it, but quite frankly I think a bigger problem in our school system is the undermining of American History curricula by the followers of Chomsky and Zinn who are brainwashing our youth with a leftist interpretation of American history in which it is made to seem like the United States was the only nation that ever practiced slavery, the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are not connected to the atrocities of the Japanese empire in the Pacific and Asia, and the Vietnam war was an unprovoked war of aggression by the United States against the peace loving Vietnamese people who only wanted to be unified by their version of George Washington, Ho Chi Minh.

I'm in the middle of reviewing books for our schoolyear (I homeschool my grandchild and a couple of her friends). This year we are studying Modern Times and I have to tell you, I am having a pretty tough time finding stuff that is even accurate, to say nothing of "fair and balanced."

re: #155 gunjam

Huh? Ever been to Hawaii or the Phillipines? It is very hard to find an evangelical pastor in either location who wears a suit in church.

How about a question of substance?

Go to Samoa or a Samoan church in Hawaii and you will see ministers who wear a lava-lava and a suit jacket.

Island Style, brah.

re: #177 Dizzy26
Thanks Diz, I am going to have to listen and parse words very carefully. These kinds of questions usually leave a lot of wiggle room.

re: #194 debutaunt

Tyson actually added the muslim holiday instead of swapping it.

That's right, they did. The original plan was to swap, but they ended up adding it. Thanks for straightening me out.

re: #195 Mark30339

Evolution and Intelligent Design seem to be Charles' hot button. Is Charles aligned with the evolutionists because he loves how mad they make creationists, or is it because evolution comforts a personal commitment to agnosticism?

I don't speak for Charles, but I believe he is keen on this issue because he wants this blog to represent the best of modern Conservatism, and that he feels the sliver of the political movement that is spearheading this superstition-based assault on our education systems is not only wrong (in principle), but harmful both politically and to our children's education.

People that matter *do* look here.

If this is the case, I agree with him.

re: #147 gunjam

NOTE: I do support DI's approach to getting other views than simply Orthodox Darwinist Catechism being taught in school (public, private, home) classrooms. I congratulate LA State Gov Bobby Jindal for permitting some of this in his state!

It would be one thing if you just rejected science in favor of your favorite creation myth. But you have to take it a step further and declare that evolution is a religious faith, rather than the observed and documented fact it is, just like the fact that the Earth is round and revolves around the Sun.

There is no such thing as "Orthodox Darwinist Catechism." It only exists in your head. You are very delusional.

re: #202 Racer X

Thank you.

re: #203 galloping granny

I'm in the middle of reviewing books for our schoolyear (I homeschool my grandchild and a couple of her friends). This year we are studying Modern Times and I have to tell you, I am having a pretty tough time finding stuff that is even accurate, to say nothing of "fair and balanced."

Great movie. Chaplin was a genius

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

re: #177 Dizzy26

WOT? Nothing about the Joooos? Dissed again!

re: #195 Mark30339

Evolution and Intelligent Design seem to be Charles' hot button. Is Charles aligned with the evolutionists because he loves how mad they make creationists, or is it because evolution comforts a personal commitment to agnosticism?

180° off. It's the Creationists hot button. They're one who start foaming at the mouth.

For the record I'm a Creationist, one one believes in a RATIONAL reading of the Bible and examination of Creation, I believe in both the Creator and his Creation.

So far the vast majority of the defense of Creationism has not be rational.

re: #206 reine.de.tout

That's right, they did. The original plan was to swap, but they ended up adding it. Thanks for straightening me out.

Initially I did find it to be hilarious that the union would give up the union holiday.

re: #190 sattv4u2

Are you trying to tell me we should pay attention to threats until it's too late?

Eventually, I came to the conclusion, through my study of the Bible and science, that the two positions of evolution and creation just could not fit together.

Yet he doesn't draw the obvious conclusion.

re: #213 debutaunt

Initially I did find it to be hilarious that the union would give up the union holiday.

Me too. Take away the laborers' Labor Day. LOL!

re: #185 sattv4u2

yes, and as soon as I see a "threat" to me, my family, their well being (be it physical, mental or spiritual) I will (and have ) step in

A considerable number of people already see a threat and have for a time.

re: #199 jaunte

One of the (admittedly minor) entertainments of these threads is watching the descent with variation of ways to tell our host "stop posting about this subject."

Personally, I'm growing a bit tired of it, but I'd never ask Charles to stop.
His ball, his game.
Also, see #207.

Color me astounded if anything substantive comes from this "debate".

re: #181 reine.de.tout

One thing is the danger of the door being opened to having faith inserted into public schools.

Right now, Muslim workers at a USA plant have gotten the management to change holidays, swapping the traditional US Labor Day holiday for a Muslim holiday.

These doors, once opened, do not ever close. They are just opened wider and wider. Until one day, our entire way of life has changed forever, and not necessarily for the better.

As of Aug 9, the workers got Labor Day back, along with Eid.

Tyson to reinstate ...

re: #195 Mark30339

Evolution and Intelligent Design seem to be Charles' hot button. Is Charles aligned with the evolutionists because he loves how mad they make creationists, or is it because evolution comforts a personal commitment to agnosticism?

This is an issue for Charles because I.D. is a pseudoscientific lie designed to subvert the Constitution of the United States. Charles accepts FACTS, whether they make him uncomfortable or not.

re: #219 irongrampa

Color me astounded if anything substantive comes from this "debate".

What color is that again?

re: #214 Sharmuta

Are you trying to tell me we should pay attention to threats until it's too late?

no. I'm trying to tell you that while we should be out finding and stomping out killer bees nests, I'm not going to waste my time on a single fruit fly

re: #164 jcm

That's pretty lightweight, I would pass on that church solely for lack of content in the above statement.

Wow! Great catch! I would say that Saddleback's statement of faith would be acceptable to many non-Christians, so vague and juvenile are the contents of its propositions.

I would call this "statement of faith"(sic) a perfect example of "defining Evangelicalism down."

It helps me see why Saddleback is so huge: You need the spiritual development of a five-year-old to be a member and you never have to develop beyond that point, either.

No wonder the Evangelical church has so little impact on the American scene -- and no wonder so many Evangelicals are thinking of voting Obama.

re: #217 FurryOldGuyJeans

see my 223

re: #221 Tigger2005

This is an issue for Charles because I.D. is a pseudoscientific lie designed to subvert the Constitution of the United States. Charles accepts FACTS, whether they make him uncomfortable or not.

Fixed that for ya.

re: #195 Mark30339

Go piss up a rope.

re: #223 sattv4u2

no. I'm trying to tell you that while we should be out finding and stomping out killer bees nests, I'm not going to waste my time on a single fruit fly

To a lot of people what you call a fruit fly they call a horde of killer bees.

re: #219 irongrampa
Absolutley amazed would come to mind. I predict lots of buzzwords and spinning like whirling dervishes from both sides.

re: #203 galloping granny

Have you read this one granny? It only goes as far as the 90's though and may not fill the bill for what you might be looking for.
Modern Times, by Paul Johnson

re: #222 baxtrice

What color is that again?

racist!

re: #187 snowcrash

I do agree with your assessment. I feel the same way about Rev. Osteen in Houston and he is loved by many too.

Amen, brother!

So the event tonight will be a chance for both candidates to do what?

re: #195 Mark30339

Evolution and Intelligent Design seem to be Charles' hot button. Is Charles aligned with the evolutionists because he loves how mad they make creationists, or is it because evolution comforts a personal commitment to agnosticism?

The Catholic Church accepts evolution! Are you going to claim they do so because it comforts a commitment to agnosticism that they secretly harbor?

re: #228 FurryOldGuyJeans

To a lot of people what you call a fruit fly they call a horde of killer bees.

Charles will continue to stay on top of this danger.

re: #227 MandyManners

Go piss up a rope.

Got store that one :-)

re: #233 Racer X

So the event tonight will be a chance for both candidates to do what?

be on TV for free

re: #195 Mark30339

Evolution and Intelligent Design seem to be Charles' hot button. Is Charles aligned with the evolutionists because he loves how mad they make creationists, or is it because evolution comforts a personal commitment to agnosticism?

Also, if you have been paying attention, Charles had made it clear again and again that a belief in evolution does NOT preclude a belief in God.

Einstein essentially said it (that laws of nature or physics don't contradict the existence of God).

Even the current Pope has said explicitly that evolution is true.

If the Pope can accept evolution, I think its not unreasonable to ask a few fundamentalist American Christians to keep their Creationism out of our science classrooms.

The sliver that are doing this reflect badly on the religious community as a whole, and badly on American Conservatism.

re: #237 sattv4u2
Ahahahaha! Good one.

re: #193 Sharmuta

You know what they say about assuming, don't you?

And why didn't you answer my question yesterday? Are you a Calvinist?

I answered your question. I'm a Hobbesist!

I didn't know until reading the wiki article that Calvin and Hobbes were actually named after John Calvin and Thomas Hobbes....LOL.

The life of a stuffed tiger is nasty, brutish and short....

re: #195 Mark30339

Evolution and Intelligent Design seem to be Charles' hot button. Is Charles aligned with the evolutionists because he loves how mad they make creationists, or is it because evolution comforts a personal commitment to agnosticism?

It's because this is Charle's blog. Get that. There are creationist here, evolutionist here and atheist here, and we all state our opinions and get along for the most part.

But the one thing we don't do is rag on Charles.

Ass.

re: #240 Colonel Panik
Plus, he looks a fright when he comes out of the dryer.

re: #224 gunjam

Actually- some evangelicals are thinking of voting for obama because they think America deserves the punishment for their sins:

An element of the Christian community is not reconciled to McCain's candidacy but instead regards the prospective presidency of Barack Obama in the nature of a Biblical plague visited upon a sinful people.

Nice.

re: #235 debutaunt

Charles will continue to stay on top of this danger.

Of that I don't have a doubt. Glad someone is willing to continue to point out the dangers no matter how unpleasant they make people. I know I was mystified about Charles's "obsession" until I started doing some digging on my own about the agenda SOME Creationists are pushing.

re: #237 sattv4u2

be on TV for free

I'm just wondering why either of them agreed to this format at this location.

re: #241 Walter L. Newton

It's because this is Charle's blog. Get that. There are creationist here, evolutionist here and atheist here, and we all state our opinions and get along for the most part.

But the one thing we don't do is rag on Charles.

Ass.

You forgot the "hole".

re: #243 Sharmuta

Actually- some evangelicals are thinking of voting for obama because they think America deserves the punishment for their sins:

Nice.

Can we slap some sense into these people?

re: #241 Walter L. Newton

It's because this is Charle's blog. Get that. There are creationist here, evolutionist here and atheist here, and we all state our opinions and get along for the most part.

But the one thing we don't do is rag on Charles.

Ass.

I'll drink have some more coffee to that!

re: #218 looking closely

Personally, I'm growing a bit tired of it, but I'd never ask Charles to stop.
His ball, his game.
Also, see #207.

Seconded. I wouldn't presume to tell Charles what to post on his blog (we are, after all, only guests here), but it is tiresome to see them, because inevitably you get the people who jump on attacking those of us who believe in creationism, because of the actions of a few like DI. I suppose I was a little too defensive, due too this, in my last post. That's why I normally avoid those blog posts.

Sorry about that, FurryOldGuyJeans. I didn't mean to take it out on you.

Likely going to miss this doing tonite, just discovered the garden hose needs waxing. Pity about that.

re: #243 Sharmuta

Sounds like those nuts who disrupt soldier funerals.Or Pat Robertson.

re: #246 MandyManners

You forgot the "hole".

He didn't deserve that many keystrokes of my time.

re: #245 Racer X
No questions of substance will be asked. Positions will be so broad as to be as vague as moonbeams.

re: #243 Sharmuta

Actually- some evangelicals are thinking of voting for obama because they think America deserves the punishment for their sins:

Nice.

And when I see such muddle-brained thinking I can't help but remember that we are not to judge unless we are willing to be judged in turn. Evil loves such thinking.

re: #247 baxtrice

Can we slap some sense into these people?

There's not a clue-by-four big enough.

re: #252 Walter L. Newton

He didn't deserve that many keystrokes of my time.

LOL!

re: #245 Racer X

I'm just wondering why either of them agreed to this format at this location.

For your EDIFICATION

How did the Saddleback Civil Forum on the Presidency come about?

On July 2nd, after efforts by another organization failed to get the two candidates together, Dr. Rick Warren personally contacted the candidates out of his relationship with both men, and invited them to Saddleback's Civil Forum for August. Both agreed to participate on two conditions: 1) that Dr. Warren ask all the questions -- instead of a panel, or from the audience -- and 2) that it be open for all national media to cover as news or carry via live video feed from Saddleback, as opposed to co-sponsorship by any one network or outlet, as was done during the primary campaigns.