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Obama on 'Antichrist' References, Born Alive Infant Protection Act

Sun, Aug 17, 2008 at 3:49:21 pm PDT

Pat Robertson’s Christian Broadcasting Network interviewed Barack Obama after the forum last night, and they’ve posted the video (Windows Media) at their site: Obama Gets Heated on Born Alive Infant Protection Act. (Click the image for the video.)

Brody: Let me ask you a little about some of these ads that John McCain has been running not just on television, but on the web. Let’s face it, let’s call a spade a spade, there has been some Messianic references, there’s been some antichrist stuff going on, the celebrity, they’re trying to pigeonhole you a certain way. Do you believe this is being done on purpose?

Obama: Well of course it’s being done on purpose. They’re not spending a whole bunch of money to make me out as a good guy. They’re engaging in the kind of politics that I think we’ve become accustomed to which is you try to tear your opponents down and you engage in sort of slash and burn tactics. And very personal sort of personal character attacks. And one of the challenges for us in this campaign is how do you make sure those attacks are answered quickly and forcefully, but also truthfully and that we don’t fall into that same kind of tactic. And look, I think ultimately the American people are going to understand by the time they go into the polling place in November that this is not an election about me. This an election about them - ordinary people, their lives, their hopes their dreams, the fact that their incomes have gone down over the last eight years, the fact that their jobs are less secure, that they have less retirement security, that their kids can’t afford college, that jobs are being shipped overseas that the tax code isn’t fair and that special interests have come to dominate Washington. And as long as we’re communicating an active plan to fix those problems then I think we’re going to do well.

Brody: Real quick, the born alive infant protection act. I gotta tell you that’s the one thing I get a lot of emails about and it’s just not just from Evangelicals, it about Catholics, Protestants, main — they’re trying to understand it because there was some literature put out by the National Right to Life Committee. And they’re basically saying they felt like you misrepresented your position on that bill.

Obama: Let me clarify this right now.

Brody: Because it’s getting a lot of play.

Obama: Well and because they have not been telling the truth. And I hate to say that people are lying, but here’s a situation where folks are lying. I have said repeatedly that I would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported - which was to say —that you should provide assistance to any infant that was born - even if it was as a consequence of an induced abortion. That was not the bill that was presented at the state level. What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe vs. Wade. By the way, we also had a bill, a law already in place in Illinois that insured life saving treatment was given to infants.

So for people to suggest that I and the Illinois medical society, so Illinois doctors were somehow in favor of withholding life saving support from an infant born alive is ridiculous. It defies commonsense and it defies imagination and for people to keep on pushing this is offensive and it’s an example of the kind of politics that we have to get beyond. It’s one thing for people to disagree with me about the issue of choice, it’s another thing for people to out and out misrepresent my positions repeatedly, even after they know that they’re wrong. And that’s what’s been happening.

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527 comments

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1 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:51:10pm

But.... I thought these questions were above his pay grade?

2 Gang of One  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:51:22pm

He just keeps digging deeper, neh?

3 Da Coyote  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:52:26pm

Haven't been following things closely. So, to the point. Is Obama lying? I strongly suspect that he is. Democrat. Chicato. US Senator. Hellllloo.

4 noshariaincanada  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:52:28pm

when the history books are written, historians will wonder how a candidate like Obama ever became even remotely viable in the minds of *some* people.

5 natemannq  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:53:02pm

Translation?
uh ummm ah uh well I believe that uh ah ummmm

6 natemannq  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:53:57pm

"If we keep on getting distracted by this problem then we are not solving it."

-Barack Obama in response to question posed by Wolf Blitzer about DL's for illegals

7 sngnsgt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:54:28pm

re: #3 Da Coyote

Is Obama lying?

Are his lips moving?

8 FrogMarch  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:55:59pm

It's great that you just posted this, Charles. I was just reading Althouse blog (I know, she used to make me cringe)... She makes an excellent post/observation regarding this subject.

(why she is a lawyer and I'm not)

9 RTLM  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:56:11pm
Obama: Well of course it’s being done on purpose. They’re not spending a whole bunch of money to make me out as a good guy. They’re engaging in the kind of politics that I think we’ve become accustomed to which is you try to tear your opponents down and you engage in sort of slash and burn tactics. And very personal sort of personal character attacks.

All we do is replay your statements, Obama. We may even have a comment or two about them.

10 natemannq  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:56:31pm

re: #7 sngnsgt

Are his lips moving?

moving likr they want a cigarette after that performance...

got a light?

11 Behead Me Bob  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:56:42pm

OK Mr. Obama, assuming you become president and can't defer to a higher pay grade, please answer the following:
Do unborn babies have human rights?
If unborn babies do have human rights, at what age (weeks or months)?

/I might be wrong, but I remember reading a while back that an EU country (Spain)? tried or succeeded in giving "human rights" to monkeys.

12 ironbill  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:56:48pm

...and your position is...?

13 sngnsgt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:57:06pm

re: #10 natemannq

moving likr they want a cigarette after that performance...

got a light?

Zippo!

14 FrogMarch  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:58:02pm

If Obama talks in circles long enough, he can fool all the kos-type kids. But the rest of us realize he is part liar and part person without principles.

15 nikis-knight  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:58:40pm
That was not the bill that was presented at the state level.

According to national review, that's a lie. here
At the committee level, Obama voted against a bill that WAS identical to the federal one. Perhaps it was different once it got out of committee. Obama is being very misleading--wait, I don't have a problem saying it--is lying here.

16 pegcity  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:58:41pm

you hear that, thats the sound of the Obama train coming to a screeching halt.

Way to pick a winner Dummies.

17 ironbill  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:59:07pm

His bullshit is starting to wear thin.

18 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 3:59:13pm

See, Barry, you should have made better use of your time as head of Law Review.
It could have come in handy right about now.

19 Boxy_brown  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:00:34pm
I have said repeatedly that I would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported - which was to say —that you should provide assistance to any infant that was born - even if it was as a consequence of an induced abortion. That was not the bill that was presented at the state level.

That has been demonstrated to be false, it was the same bill with the language copied verbatim.

Newly obtained documents prove that in 2003, Barack Obama, as chairman of an IL state Senate committee, voted down a bill to protect live-born survivors of abortion - even after the panel had amended the bill to contain verbatim language, copied from a federal bill passed by Congress without objection in 2002, explicitly foreclosing any impact on abortion. Obama’s legislative actions in 2003 - denying effective protection even to babies born alive during abortions - were contrary to the position taken on the same language by even the most liberal members of Congress. The bill Obama killed was virtually identical to the federal bill that even NARAL ultimately did not oppose.

Letting a live baby die is not the same as abortion rights by the way.

20 RTLM  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:00:51pm

Via Gateway Pundit

Rently published documents by Jill Stanek prove that in 2003, Barack Obama, as chairman of an IL state Senate committee, voted down a bill to protect live-born survivors of abortion:
Here is a copy of the committee roll call vote:

PIC

21 HelloDare  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:01:02pm
22 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:01:26pm

re: #19 Boxy_brown

Letting a live baby die is not the same as abortion rights by the way.

Absolutely correct!

23 vagabond trader  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:01:48pm

"Let's call a spade a spade?" Good grief, talk about Freudian slips. Pat Robertson as defender of the Obama, a splendid partnership. Mix in Sharpton and you have Shyster, Huckster and Huckster.

24 ironbill  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:02:03pm

Meanwhile... the Obama campaign is floating the story that McCain was prepped with the questions before last night's event.

He sucks in a debate and it's because the other guy cheated

25 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:02:04pm

Pat Robertson and Obama in one video? Do I really want to watch this one?

26 MAV  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:03:28pm

obama, you are truly a huge stinking POS. This person doesn't deserve to be a U.S. Senator let alone the POTUS.
Spits, spits and spits again

27 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:04:17pm
I have said repeatedly that I would have been completely in, fully in support of the federal bill that everybody supported - which was to say —that you should provide assistance to any infant that was born - even if it was as a consequence of an induced abortion. That was not the bill that was presented at the state level.

/vote Obama!

28 nikis-knight  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:04:31pm
What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe vs. Wade.

Anyway, voting to not provide care to born babies because you don't want to accidently weaken Roe v Wade is like voting against attack Saddam Hussein because you don't want to weaken the authority of the U.N.
But then, Obama didn't have much shot at my vote anyway, being a spineless socialist and all.

29 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:04:56pm

Wow, Charles has posted a semi-abortion thread.

Let's the arguments commence!

Personally, I recommend feeding all newborns into the Soylent Green Machine -- which also will solve third-world hunger problems!

30 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:05:09pm

Help comes from the most unexpected places...
Thanks and a hat tip, Koskidz....keep digging for us, will ya?
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

31 FrogMarch  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:05:13pm
32 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:05:39pm

re: #28 nikis-knight

Anyway, voting to not provide care to born babies because you don't want to accidently weaken Roe v Wade is like voting against attack Saddam Hussein because you don't want to weaken the authority of the U.N.
But then, Obama didn't have much shot at my vote anyway, being a spineless socialist and all.

Those babies might be unwanted burdens to their parents you know.

33 BackwardsBoy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:05:54pm

"personal sort of personal character attacks" WTF? In addition to not being able to think on his feet, (if at all), the Vapid One has no character to attack. If he really had core values, he'd be able to talk clearly about them and the way they impact issues. The fact that he can't even speak without stepping on his own his d*ck shows his lack of intellect.

34 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:06:01pm

And oh by the way. The world is a dangerous place, the bear is back on the march, and we need responsible adults in charge!

35 Omni  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:06:10pm

Mr. Obama is not very convincing.

36 HelloDare  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:06:12pm

If the MSM would dig into this story, Obama would be finished. There are a lot of people who are pro-abortion, but not many who are pro-infanticide.

37 nikis-knight  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:06:23pm

re: #32 galloping granny

Are you being sarcastic? Please tell me you are being sarcastic?

38 natemannq  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:06:27pm

re: #24 ironbill

Meanwhile... the Obama campaign is floating the story that McCain was prepped with the questions before last night's event.

He sucks in a debate and it's because the other guy cheated

At the essence of liberalism, my friend..

It's the biggest plank in the platform.

39 vagabond trader  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:06:44pm

re: #29 zombie

No, it's the Obama caught once again in his great Lie Machine.

40 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:06:45pm

Gee, Plame's ridiculous lawsuit has been thrown out of court multiple times.

/I know, how about we give her a prime time spot on 60 Minutes?

41 hurricane_jimmy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:07:59pm

Shameless liar. If this tool gets elected, he'll be a one term failure like the peanut farmer.

42 FrogMarch  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:08:08pm

re: #31 FrogMarch

Obama and the Born-Alive Act.

Here's the whole thing... one stop shopping:

Six years ago, Congress passed the “Born-Alive Infants Protection Act,” making it illegal to kill a child who is fully born during an attempted abortion. The bill passed without a single opposing vote in either house, and was signed into law by President Bush on August 5, 2002. When he was a state senator at that same time, Barack Obama opposed a state version of the bill in Illinois. His explanation for the vote since then has been that the state version did not include a so-called “neutrality clause” which says explicitly that the bill is not meant to influence the legal standing of a fetus before birth one way or another. The federal law contained such a clause, and the state law, Obama has long insisted, did not. As recently as June 30, the Obama campaign made that case to answer the charge (in that case from Bill Bennett) that Obama had opposed the Born-Alive Act.

But now, the National Right to Life Committee has uncovered proof that Obama in fact voted in committee against even the version of the Illinois Born-Alive Act that did include exactly the same “neutrality clause” as the federal bill. On March 12, 2003, when the bill was being debated, an amendment was added that inserted the neutrality language of the federal bill verbatim into the Illinois bill. Obama voted for the amendment (that’s the vote on the left-hand column on this committee vote record), and then voted against the amended bill (that’s the vote on the right on the same document). All the Democrats on the committee (which Obama chaired) followed his lead, and the bill was defeated.

This was, again, legislation that in the same form had by then passed unanimously at the federal level. Even NARAL did not oppose it. Apparently Barack Obama did, and his old explanation for doing so seems at odds with the facts.

43 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:08:34pm

re: #29 zombie

We have a pretty rational crew of lizards these days. I think they can handle it.

44 Genosaurer  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:08:38pm

"What that bill also was doing was trying to undermine Roe vs. Wade."

How?

/Isn't he supposed to be a Constitutional scholar?

45 opnion  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:08:41pm

He is lying. Either that or the Chicago Tribune , a paper that supports him is lying.
Early in the primaries the paper profiled Obama. His opposition to the "Born Alive Infant Protection Act" while in the Illinois Senate was reported as a fact. State Senators that were there concurr.
IT was also reported that the Obamas had an interest in a local Chicago Hospital network that does a lot of abortions.

46 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:08:59pm

re: #40 Killian Bundy

Gee, Plame's ridiculous lawsuit has been thrown out of court multiple times.

/I know, how about we give her a prime time spot on 60 Minutes?

/pass the barf bag

47 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:09:01pm

re: #41 hurricane_jimmy

Shameless liar. If this tool gets elected, he'll be a one term failure like the peanut farmer.

But what about our country?

48 RTLM  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:09:12pm
It defies commonsense and it defies imagination and for people to keep on pushing this is offensive and it’s an example of the kind of politics that we have to get beyond. It’s one thing for people to disagree with me about the issue of choice, it’s another thing for people to out and out misrepresent my positions repeatedly, even after they know that they’re wrong. And that’s what’s been happening.

Hey Obama:

49 Timbre  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:09:27pm
It’s one thing for people to disagree with me about the issue of choice, it’s another thing for people to out and out misrepresent my positions repeatedly, even after they know that they’re wrong. And that’s what’s been happening. --Barack Obama

In the beginning we recall that the word was hurled
Barrytown people got to be from another world.

Leave me or I'll be just like the others you will meet
They won't act as kindly if they see you on the street
And don't you scream or make a shout
It's nothing you can do about
It was there where you came out
It's a special lack of grace
I can see it in your face.

I can see by what you carry that you come from Barrytown.

--Steely Dan "Barrytown"

50 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:09:27pm

re: #30 tradewind

Heh, very funny.

51 WayDownSouthInBama  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:09:38pm

People who lie tend to get angry when they see that they haven't been able to fool everyone as well as they had planned. It's stupid for Obama,or anyone else,to try to do what he is doing with this issue. This ain't Chicago anymore Mr. Obama. And this ain't the pre-internet age either. Trying to cover up your record is a waste of time when the truth is as close as my fingertips.

52 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:10:03pm

What Obama is saying is this:

If, on the off-chance a fetus survives being aborted, Obama doesn't recommend strangling it to death with a stethoscope or crushing it under the doctor's hiking boot on the operating room floor. Obama, saint that he is, actually supports the outlandish concept of keeping the newborn alive. Fancy that!

However, this is prety much a moot point, because the number of fetuses that survive the abortion process every year probably averages out to zero. It's a one-in-a-billion circumstance.

Hence, this is safe way for Obama to sound vaguely pro-Life while talking to Christians, while essentially leaving his pro-abortion stance unchanged.

53 FrogMarch  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:10:05pm
54 noshariaincanada  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:10:59pm

re: #42 FrogMarch


how's he gonna explain *that* ?

55 pegcity  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:11:09pm
Born-Alive Infants Protection Act,” making it illegal to kill a child who is fully born during an attempted abortion

what the hell, how is this even being debated.

Put the godamn baby up for adoption

56 FrogMarch  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:11:21pm

The issue isn't - is Obama for abortion or against it.
the issue is that Obama is lying about the record.

57 opnion  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:11:22pm

re: #45 opnion

He is lying. Either that or the Chicago Tribune , a paper that supports him is lying.
Early in the primaries the paper profiled Obama. His opposition to the "Born Alive Infant Protection Act" while in the Illinois Senate was reported as a fact. State Senators that were there concurr.
IT was also reported that the Obamas had an interest in a local Chicago Hospital network that does a lot of abortions.

I should also have mentioned that the language was identical to the Federal Bill.

58 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:11:29pm

re: #39 vagabond trader

No, it's the Obama caught once again in his great Lie Machine.

I don't think he's "lying" in this instance, just being very waffle-y on a very very very peripheral issue, and acting like it's significant.

59 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:11:33pm

HEY VALARIE, WHAT ABOUT THE 500+ TONS OF YELLOWCAKE?

/words that will never escape Katie Couric's lips

60 Omni  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:12:02pm

re: #31 FrogMarch

Obama and the Born-Alive Act.

Everybody should read this link

61 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:12:16pm

re: #37 nikis-knight

Are you being sarcastic? Please tell me you are being sarcastic?

Of course I was being sarcastic! I didn't realize that I needed a sarc tag, since that is a BHO quote. My apologies!

62 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:12:32pm

An interesting (but long) read.....
When Does Human Life Begin?

63 Dekar  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:12:41pm

Look its another pseudo-subliminal CHANGE sign in the background

64 nikis-knight  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:12:59pm

re: #52 zombie

What Obama is saying is this:

If, on the off-chance a fetus survives being aborted, Obama doesn't recommend strangling it to death with a stethoscope or crushing it under the doctor's hiking boot on the operating room floor. Obama, saint that he is, actually supports the outlandish concept of keeping the newborn alive. Fancy that!

However, this is prety much a moot point, because the number of fetuses that survive the abortion process every year probably averages out to zero. It's a one-in-a-billion circumstance.

Hence, this is safe way for Obama to sound vaguely pro-Life while talking to Christians, while essentially leaving his pro-abortion stance unchanged.


BUT!- he wouldn't even vote that way in the state legislature. (Hint to constitutional scholar Obama--nothing you do in the state legislature can undermine the supreme court.) So only stupid Christians will buy Obama's BS.

65 noshariaincanada  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:13:14pm

re: #56 FrogMarch

The issue isn't - is Obama for abortion or against it.
the issue is that Obama is lying about the record.

I think Obama is a pathological liar. His body language and spoken manner in the "civil forum" betrayed that.

It would be a real pity if this guy becomes POTUS.

66 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:13:17pm

re: #56 FrogMarch

The issue isn't - is Obama for abortion or against it.
the issue is that Obama is lying about the record.

What record?

67 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:14:17pm

re: #41 hurricane_jimmy

Shameless liar. If this tool gets elected, he'll be a one term failure like the peanut farmer.

We are STILL paying the price for Carter's one term. A tremendous amount of damage can be done to our nation in four years.

68 FrogMarch  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:14:37pm
"Sen. Obama is currently misleading people about what he voted against, specifically claiming that the bill he voted against in his committee lacked “neutrality” language on Roe v. Wade. The bill did contain this language. He even participated in the unanimous vote to put it in.

Obama’s work against the bill to protect premature babies represents one of two times in his political career, along with his speech against the Iraq war, that he really stuck out his neck for something that might hurt him politically. Unlike his Iraq speech, Obama is deeply embarrassed about this one — so embarrassed that he is offering a demonstrable falsehood in explanation for his actions. Fortunately, the documents showing the truth are now available."

/-I did not have sex with that woman... or whatever...

69 Dekar  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:15:03pm

re: #52 zombie

What Obama is saying is this:

If, on the off-chance a fetus survives being aborted, Obama doesn't recommend strangling it to death with a stethoscope or crushing it under the doctor's hiking boot on the operating room floor. Obama, saint that he is, actually supports the outlandish concept of keeping the newborn alive. Fancy that!

However, this is prety much a moot point, because the number of fetuses that survive the abortion process every year probably averages out to zero. It's a one-in-a-billion circumstance.

Hence, this is safe way for Obama to sound vaguely pro-Life while talking to Christians, while essentially leaving his pro-abortion stance unchanged.

QFE QFT

70 nikis-knight  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:15:15pm

re: #61 galloping granny

Of course I was being sarcastic! I didn't realize that I needed a sarc tag, since that is a BHO quote. My apologies!

Okay. :) That is in fact the convential "wisdom" about abortion, you know--better dead than a burden, never mind that there are plenty who will adopt those burdens.

71 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:15:58pm

Ooh, poor Valerie's cover was blown.

/gee, maybe you shouldn't have listed yourself in Who's Who in America

72 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:16:01pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

An interesting (but long) read.....
When Does Human Life Begin?

Pretty good overview of the different "When does life begin?" options.

Personally, I vote for "viability" -- the age at which a fetus could conceivably survive outside the uterus. I.e. in the 6.5 - 7 month range.

Catholics and some pro-life folks vote for "at the moment of conception."

Pro-"choice" activists vote for "at the moment of birth."

I'm somewhere in the middle.

73 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:16:26pm

re: #50 Killgore Trout

I have no idea why that months old link was on their front page..... but I bit.
oh well....
whateveuh.
:)

74 vagabond trader  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:17:19pm

re: #52 zombie

Would you mind citing the source of your stats on this? I don't think you'll be able to since baby's that do survive abortion are likely to be treated with benign neglect and certainly not documented by participating medical attendants.I don't see anything written or spoken truthfully by the Obama which refers to an aborted baby as anything more than a punishment.

75 HelloDare  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:17:28pm

Clinton: I did not have sexual relations with that woman, Miss Lewinsky.

Obama: I am not screwing with the American public.

76 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:18:43pm

re: #69 Dekar

Here's the thing: the window, albeit small, of survivability for infants in utero has now lowered to 23-24 weeks, and there are a heck of a lot of second trimester abortions being performed in just that window.
It's too awful.

77 natemannq  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:18:57pm

re: #41 hurricane_jimmy

Shameless liar. If this tool gets elected, he'll be a one term failure like the peanut farmer.

You're right..

1/2 of me says to let the libs figure it out and get punk'd again with reality while the other 1/2 doesn't think we can survive it.

78 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:18:57pm

re: #72 zombie

I thought the Neurological View was pretty compelling. The Self-Consciousness opinion is going a bit far in my book and I don't even like kids much.

79 hurricane_jimmy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:19:00pm

re: #47 Nevergiveup

But what about our country?

Barack "I'll-scamya" will do a lot of damage if he gets elected. It's truly amazing that anyone takes this asshole seriously. I suppose if you like socialism, massive entitlement programs, income redistribution, and crippled economies, he's the guy for you. As for a new way of politics, this lying POS is more of same old same old.

80 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:19:02pm

re: #52 zombie

What Obama is saying is this:

If, on the off-chance a fetus survives being aborted, Obama doesn't recommend strangling it to death with a stethoscope or crushing it under the doctor's hiking boot on the operating room floor. Obama, saint that he is, actually supports the outlandish concept of keeping the newborn alive. Fancy that!

However, this is prety much a moot point, because the number of fetuses that survive the abortion process every year probably averages out to zero. It's a one-in-a-billion circumstance.

Hence, this is safe way for Obama to sound vaguely pro-Life while talking to Christians, while essentially leaving his pro-abortion stance unchanged.

Maybe not all that rare. Without wading through all of the medical databases, here is one study stating that about 1 in 30 "aborted" feti are actually born alive. [Link: www.abortionreview.org...]

The "standard" procedure in many places (including Chicago) is to force the nurse to put the child aside into a closet or some such and provide no care or treatment, simply allowing the child to die.

81 swamprat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:20:04pm

re: #29 zombie

Wow, Charles has posted a semi-abortion thread.

Let's the arguments commence!

Personally, I recommend feeding all newborns into the Soylent Green Machine -- which also will solve third-world hunger problems!


..sounds like a modest proposal...

82 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:20:14pm

re: #72 zombie

Pretty good overview of the different "When does life begin?" options.

Personally, I vote for "viability" -- the age at which a fetus could conceivably survive outside the uterus. I.e. in the 6.5 - 7 month range.

Catholics and some pro-life folks vote for "at the moment of conception."

Pro-"choice" activists vote for "at the moment of birth."

I'm somewhere in the middle.

Viability is down to about 20 weeks these days. Lower if the child is delivered in a hospital with a neonatal intensive care.

83 StinkHammer  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:20:26pm
... it’s an example of the kind of politics that we have to get beyond.

Yeah -- stop telling the truth about an ambitious, leftist shyster politician, people.

/

84 Dekar  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:21:57pm

re: #72 zombie

Pretty good overview of the different "When does life begin?" options.

Personally, I vote for "viability" -- the age at which a fetus could conceivably survive outside the uterus. I.e. in the 6.5 - 7 month range.

Catholics and some pro-life folks vote for "at the moment of conception."

Pro-"choice" activists vote for "at the moment of birth."

I'm somewhere in the middle.

Jewish law is kind of wishy washy about this issue, most probably because abortion was an absolutely absurd concept back then ie "be fruitful and multiply". In the Talmud, it states clearly that the baby is alive when the head is out of the womb. However, Jewish law also states that it is forbidden to hurt any part of yourself whatsoever unless under the extreme circumstance that you are saving someones life.

85 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:23:37pm

re: #84 Dekar

Jewish law is kind of wishy washy about this issue, most probably because abortion was an absolutely absurd concept back then ie "be fruitful and multiply". In the Talmud, it states clearly that the baby is alive when the head is out of the womb. However, Jewish law also states that it is forbidden to hurt any part of yourself whatsoever unless under the extreme circumstance that you are saving someones life.

One idea from Hebrew tradition that I have heard quoted by many comes from Deuteronomy or Leviticus - the law regarding punishment of a man who attacks a pregnant woman and kills her unborn child. That specifies 8 months.

86 vagabond trader  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:23:43pm

re: #58 zombie

I feel comfortable with "lie," no need to complicate my life any further.

87 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:25:08pm

My ears prick up when Barry says people are lying,, because I've noted he does it when he is lying, as he is in this case. See the link below.

Top 10 reasons Obama voted against the Illinois Born Alive Infant Protection Act

From that link:

1. The IL Born Alive Infant Protection Act was a ploy to undercut Roe v. Wade. During a debate against Keyes in October 2004, Obama stated:

Now, the bill that was put forward was essentially a way of getting around Roe vs. Wade.... At the federal level, there was a similar bill that passed because it had an amendment saying this does not encroach on Roe vs. Wade. I would have voted for that bill.



This was an out-and-out lie. The definition of "born alive" in the federal and Illinois versions were identical. The only difference came in paragraph (c), which was originally identical in both versions but changed on the federal level.

Illinois' paragraph (c): A live child born as a result of an abortion shall be fully recognized as a human person and accorded immediate protection under the law.

Federal paragraph (c): Nothing in this section shall be construed to affirm, deny, expand, or contract any legal status or legal right applicable to any member of the species homo sapiens at any point prior to being "born alive" as defined in this section.

When the senator sponsoring the IL bill tried to amend IL's paragraph (c), Amendment 1 below, to be the same as the federal paragraph (c), Barack Obama himself, as chairman of the committee hearing the bill, refused, and he then also killed the bill (click to enlarge). (there is a graphic at the link)

88 Daisy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:25:40pm

re: #55 pegcity

Born-Alive Infants Protection Act,” making it illegal to kill a child who is fully born during an attempted abortion

what the hell, how is this even being debated.

Put the godamn baby up for adoption

I don't exactly want to speak for God - however - the baby would not be damned by God. Perhaps others involved, including Obama, but not the baby. And yes, adoption is a creative alternative.

89 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:25:41pm

re: #74 vagabond trader

Would you mind citing the source of your stats on this? I don't think you'll be able to since baby's that do survive abortion are likely to be treated with benign neglect and certainly not documented by participating medical attendants.I don't see anything written or spoken truthfully by the Obama which refers to an aborted baby as anything more than a punishment.

Well, according to this article by a famous abortion doctor, he says that the fetus is ALWAYS killed in utero before being extracted. So it's never "born" in a living state. The whole fantasy of tiny mid-term fetuses emerging from the vagina after an abortion still being alive, and crawling away from the sadistic killer-nurses, is just an urban legend.

The question then becomes: does Obama (or whoever) support the killing of fetuses in utero, and at what stage of the pregnancy does it become immoral? One day after conception? One day before full-term birth? Something in between? Etc.

90 imtoast  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:25:46pm

OT: Does anyone have a link for the debate/get together with McCain and bambi at Saddleback? After reading all this, I'd really like to see the tape.

91 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:27:31pm

re: #90 imtoast

It's being re-run often on Fox and even CNN.... check your tv listings. In case you want it now, try C-Span.

92 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:27:33pm

Viability outside the womb.

/bright line rule

93 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:27:48pm

re: #58 zombie

I don't think he's "lying" in this instance, just being very waffle-y on a very very very peripheral issue, and acting like it's significant.

Very few people in this country find abortion a peripheral issue, whichever side they happen to be on. But this is not really about abortion. It is about the deliberate death of a living infant. NOT peripheral at all. This one is going to bite Obama right in the ass - even among many people who are pro choice.

94 Zombie_Killian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:28:19pm

One of the networks in the bag for him (Getting hard to keep track of) already gave Obama's waffling on taxes and the economy credit for the rebounding dollar and drop in oil prices...

95 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:28:52pm
96 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:29:58pm

What is the flap that some moonbats are squawking about that ...McCain got Warren's questions and answers with The One en route to Saddleback?

97 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:29:59pm

re: #94 Zombie_Killian

Oh look Zombie . . .

/what have we given birth to?

98 Zombie_Killian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:30:53pm

re: #97 Killian Bundy

Have I ever been on a thread the same time as Zombie or Killian Bundy?

99 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:31:57pm

Oh great... I just had to sit through The Clone Wars last night..... not here too....

100 HelloDare  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:32:06pm

re: #89 zombie

That doctor was talking specifically about partial birth abortions.

101 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:32:23pm

re: #97 Killian Bundy

Heh.

102 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:32:35pm

re: #80 galloping granny

Maybe not all that rare. Without wading through all of the medical databases, here is one study stating that about 1 in 30 "aborted" feti are actually born alive. [Link: www.abortionreview.org...]

The "standard" procedure in many places (including Chicago) is to force the nurse to put the child aside into a closet or some such and provide no care or treatment, simply allowing the child to die.

Interesting -- never seen that article. According to that link from a pro-life site,

About 190,000 abortions take place annually in England and Wales. Most abortions are carried out on ‘healthy’ fetuses for social reasons, reports the BBC. Abortion is allowed in Britain up to the 24th week of pregnancy. Beyond this, a termination is only sanctioned if the fetus has a severe disability or if the mother’s life is at risk.
The study, however, looked at the outcomes of 3,189 abortions performed between 1995 and 2004 because the fetus had a disability of some kind. It showed that 102 - or around one in 30 - were born alive. Most of these babies with disabilities were born between 20 and 24 weeks of pregnancy and all lived for no more than a few hours.

Hence, 30 abortions out 190,000/year for 10 years = 1,900,000 were "live-births." 30/1,900,000 = 1/63,333 or (I got a C in 7th-grade math) .0063%. (?) Still extremely rare, if not as rare as I originally posited.

103 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:32:52pm

re: #29 zombie

Wow, Charles has posted a semi-abortion thread.

Let's the arguments commence!

Personally, I recommend feeding all newborns into the Soylent Green Machine -- which also will solve third-world hunger problems!


dinged that up before I saw the last, hoping you left of the / sarc tag.

104 Daisy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:33:31pm

re: #61 galloping granny

Of course I was being sarcastic! I didn't realize that I needed a sarc tag, since that is a BHO quote. My apologies!

g.g. - I'm remembering Obama referring to 'unwanted' children as 'punishments'. This is not to say your memory of 'unwanted burdens' is incorrect, just that 'punishments' is a particularly scalding - and telling, in Obama's case - term for an innocent child. Obama sure as heck was an 'unwanted burden' by his father - and perhaps his mother thought of him as a 'punishment' when she dumped him w/his typical white grandparents at the age of 10 and then hightailed it back to her other, more new and interesting family.

105 pat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:34:01pm

It defies humanity to kill a viable and healthy fetus that could survive outside the womb. it is scary that people believe this is all right.

106 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:34:16pm
107 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:34:17pm

Oh, excuse me, I misrear that. Amend my math to be about 3x the amount:

.019%

108 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:34:32pm

misrear = misread

109 swamprat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:35:05pm

re: #97 Killian Bundy

Oh look Zombie . . .

/what have we given birth to?

It has both Zombie and Killian DNA, but one less gene than either parent. A smarter mutation, if we are lucky. A mutant sockpuppet.

110 Bruin  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:35:32pm

This issue of denying medical care for living human beings, survivors of brutal abortions, needs to be pushed to the forefront of this political campaign.

If Obama is not willing to ensure help, in fact making it a crime to do so, to newborn infants, then what can we as a country expect from him when it comes to our own wellbeing?

Aborted or not, a living baby is a newborn baby----and in this country an American baby, with all the rights and protections granted to all newborn Americans.

This one item alone convinces me of Obama's Marxist bent. Leftist is as Leftist does.

111 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:35:51pm

re: #82 galloping granny

Viability is down to about 20 weeks these days. Lower if the child is delivered in a hospital with a neonatal intensive care.

OK -- as the medicine improves, my viability estimates get lower!

112 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:36:08pm

re: #104 Daisy

That was in reference to his daughters. He said something to the effect that even though they are teaching their children etc. that "he wouldn't want his daughter to be punished with a baby" if she made a mistake. I'm not working worried about that falling out of the public eye as we will hear the soundbite daily on Hannity now until November.

113 imtoast  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:36:40pm

re: #91 tradewind

It's being re-run often on Fox and even CNN.... check your tv listings. In case you want it now, try C-Span.

Thank you, I'm checking now!

114 StinkHammer  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:37:21pm

Well FWIW (usually not much), when it comes to the abortion debate I personally follow the Neal Boortz rule: I don't discuss it. Not worth the headache.

Considering the extremely contentious nature of the issue, I almost feel more comfortable debating science vs. ID -- and even that's a push....

[Speaking of ID, I see where Ben Stein is scheduled for a Q & A interview on C-SPAN at 8:00 EST for those interested in listening to some pretentious drivel....]

115 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:37:53pm

re: #92 Killian Bundy

Viability outside the womb.

/bright line rule

We are in 100% agreement on this.

116 godfrey  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:38:11pm

Obama is okay with infanticide. This makes him a craven, gutless thug.

117 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:38:12pm

re: #102 zombie

Hence, 30 abortions out 190,000/year for 10 years = 1,900,000 were "live-births." 30/1,900,000 = 1/63,333 or (I got a C in 7th-grade math) .0063%. (?) Still extremely rare, if not as rare as I originally posited.

Frequent enough that mandating that the child be given treatment (even if they live only a few hours) rather than set aside untended until they die is not the least unreasonable. If not for the children, then for the poor nursing staff that are ordered to do this.

118 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:38:45pm

re: #32 galloping granny

Not to mention a punishment to Obama's kids.

119 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:39:17pm

re: #111 zombie

OK -- as the medicine improves, my viability estimates get lower!

We do marvelous things in this country with preemies.

120 Zombie_Killian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:39:56pm

re: #109 swamprat

A mutant sockpuppet.

Can I nominate that for a rotating title?

121 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:40:00pm
122 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:40:33pm

re: #116 godfrey

Obama is okay with infanticide. This makes him a craven, gutless thug Dirty F**kin' Communist.

There, fixed that for ya!

123 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:41:07pm

re: #93 galloping granny

Very few people in this country find abortion a peripheral issue, whichever side they happen to be on. But this is not really about abortion. It is about the deliberate death of a living infant. NOT peripheral at all. This one is going to bite Obama right in the ass - even among many people who are pro choice.

I'm just saying that the concept of "living fetus" patial-birth abortions is what's peripheral. Even by the estimates (in the article you linked to) of pro-life activists, it happens only .019% of the time (i..e 19 hundredths of a percent). That does seem pretty peripheral, in the overall abortion issue. And, frankly, I doubt it even happens that often. I'm pretty sure most abortion doctors now make absolutely sure to kill the fetus in utero, to avoid this controversy.

124 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:41:59pm

re: #110 Bruin

If Obama is not willing to ensure help, in fact making it a crime to do so, to newborn infants, then what can we as a country expect from him when it comes to our own wellbeing?

This is where the mask of the left always slips. They pretend to be for everthing good and kind, but when it comes to valuing life you find them as monsters in caring drag.

125 godfrey  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:42:18pm

re: #121 buzzsawmonkeyHere it is:

At a March 29 townhall meeting in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, Obama excoriated abstinence-only education with harsh language. "Look, I got two daughters — nine years old and six years old," he said. "I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby.

Best to take it out on the baby, then.

126 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:42:30pm

re: #97 Killian Bundy

Oh look Zombie . . .

/what have we given birth to?

We have produced a living partial-birth offspring! It's alive!

127 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:42:56pm

re: #98 Zombie_Killian

Have I ever been on a thread the same time as Zombie or Killian Bundy?

For the first time ever, you're here with both of us.

128 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:43:44pm

re: #103 Thanos

dinged that up before I saw the last, hoping you left of the / sarc tag.

Of course.

To make it clear:

/s

129 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:43:45pm

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

Can anyone find his quote from a month or two ago about children being a "burden?"

/Obama - I don't want my daughters "punished with a baby"

130 swamprat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:43:50pm

Obama nixes Healthcare for newborns; Women and Children Most Affected


...film at eleven...
131 godfrey  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:44:37pm

Buzz

The Johnstown town hall meeting is all youtubed, but forgive me if I don't root through it to find the quotation.

132 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:44:42pm

re: #102 zombie

Here is a piece on the NHS stats (UK) - this is apparently not something that has been tracked or spoken of a lot in the past, and as the story mentions, this stat wa buried in the small print.

In a way that makes me cringe, this whole subject reminds me of the the "I'm not dead yet" scene from the Monty Python movie.

66 babies in a year left to die after NHS abortions that go wrong
05.02.08


Botched abortions mean that scores of babies are being born alive and left to die, an official report has revealed.

A total of 66 infants survived NHS termination attempts in one year alone, it emerged.

Rather than dying at birth as was intended, they were able to breathe unaided. About half were alive for an hour, while one survived ten hours.

The figures are the first to give a national picture of the number of babies who survive abortion but are left to die.

Experts previously believed the phenomenon was limited to a handful of cases a year.

The babies were aborted using a drug to soften the cervix and induce labour. Once born no medical help is offered.

The statistics are contained in the small print of an official report by the Confidential Enquiry into Maternal and Child Health, commissioned by the Government.

133 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:44:58pm

re: #102 zombie

Hence, 30 abortions out 190,000/year for 10 years = 1,900,000 were "live-births." 30/1,900,000 = 1/63,333 or (I got a C in 7th-grade math) .0063%. (?) Still extremely rare, if not as rare as I originally posited.

The study, however, looked at the outcomes of 3,189 abortions performed between 1995 and 2004 because the fetus had a disability of some kind. It showed that 102 - or around one in 30 - were born alive.

Please check your math. Looks to me like you need to do 1 in 30. 1 divided by 30 = .03333333333333

Still small, but troubling.

134 Daisy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:44:59pm

re: #112 Thanos

Yes, that's right. So, he was referring to pregnancy as a 'punishment'. Funny how so many Moonbats love to crow about single motherhood as a gift from the goddess or as a punishment by the patriarchy - they've got it covered!

Thinking about the daily Hannity 'reminders' makes me want to take a moment of silence to express my gratitude for my TVless state :).

135 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:45:23pm
136 lawhawk  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:45:24pm

re: #125 godfrey

Punished with a baby.... not blessed with a child when you've got so many other Americans who will do practically anything to have a baby of their own but are unable to do so.

137 Zombie_Killian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:45:43pm

re: #127 zombie

I consider it an honor and a privelege....

138 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:45:59pm

Math thread!

139 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:46:01pm

The mad mullahs are at it again. Claim they have fighters that can make it to Israel. Ummm no.
They have launched another rocket they claim can put a satellite into orbit. Maybe, that would be troubling cause you can stick a warhead on it and viola' an ICBM.
BTW OT

140 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:46:07pm

re: #123 zombie

I'm just saying that the concept of "living fetus" patial-birth abortions is what's peripheral. Even by the estimates (in the article you linked to) of pro-life activists, it happens only .019% of the time (i..e 19 hundredths of a percent). That does seem pretty peripheral, in the overall abortion issue. And, frankly, I doubt it even happens that often. I'm pretty sure most abortion doctors now make absolutely sure to kill the fetus in utero, to avoid this controversy.

Let me quote your own figures at you Zombie. You wrote -

Hence, 30 abortions out 190,000/year for 10 years = 1,900,000 were "live-births."


,900So, using your figures, each year there are about 1900 "live births" following abortion.

This is the nation that finds it horrible that we have lost "almost" 5000 soldiers in the last 5 years or so. Just about half the number of "live births" that happen each year.

Too few to concern ourselves with? I think not.

This is not abortion. This is murder.

141 nikis-knight  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:46:16pm
"I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby.

That's ironic, since, I don't want my unborn children punished with an Obama presidency preceeding their birth and whittling away at American responsibity and decency.


em>re: #123 zombie

I'm just saying that the concept of "living fetus" patial-birth abortions is what's peripheral. Even by the estimates (in the article you linked to) of pro-life activists, it happens only .019% of the time (i..e 19 hundredths of a percent). That does seem pretty peripheral, in the overall abortion issue. And, frankly, I doubt it even happens that often. I'm pretty sure most abortion doctors now make absolutely sure to kill the fetus in utero, to avoid this controversy.

It might be an edge case, but it edge cases are indicative of societal moral trends, imo.

142 vagabond trader  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:46:18pm

re: #89 zombie

As a former nurse, who likes to believe her professional behavior was never sadistic, I can tell you with absolute certainty that scenario's very close to what you dismiss as fantasy have occurred, as described by my former colleagues.Sophisticated folk may call it euthanasia, benign neglect, or what have you, it is still disturbing, infanticide, and the Obama is ok with it.

As for your "famous abortion" doc,you may as well add rich to that description;money soothes many a conscience

143 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:47:18pm
144 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:47:20pm

This discussion always depresses me. I am kinda old fashion. I believe you find your life partner and raise a family. Outside of marriage and medically necessary procedures, well I am not naive, but both a man and a women should behave responsibly. And outside of War, defense of this country, and law enforcement well you don't take a human life without regard for the consequences. The rest seems like a huge rationalization to me.

145 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:47:27pm

re: #125 godfrey

At a March 29 townhall meeting in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, Obama excoriated abstinence-only education with harsh language. "Look, I got two daughters — nine years old and six years old," he said. "I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby.

Obama really said that?

My god, what a callous bastard.

146 swamprat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:47:47pm

re: #120 Zombie_Killian
..Be my guest!

147 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:48:59pm

re: #121 buzzsawmonkey

Can anyone find his quote from a month or two ago about children being a "burden?"

"I don't want them punished with a baby." He was speaking about his daughters.

148 godfrey  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:49:05pm

Yes, "punished." Because, you see, choosing to have unprotected sex isn't the mistake: naturally conceiving a child is. The value of human life apparently resides in someone's choice to value it. It has no intrinsic value of its own.

I am deeply sympathetic to very young mothers. They need all the love and support we can give them.

So do their babies, who did nothing wrong.

149 swamprat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:49:30pm

re: #139 pingjockey

The mad mullahs are at it again. Claim they have fighters that can make it to Israel. Ummm no.
They have launched another rocket they claim can put a satellite into orbit. Maybe, that would be troubling cause you can stick a warhead on it and viola' an ICBM.
BTW OT


Would like to buy some land?
150 vagabond trader  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:49:58pm

re: #132 Catttt

66 is the number reported. I guarantee you the figure is much higher. Kind of like when you ask a drunk driver how many beers they've consumed. Always multiply the answer by 4.

151 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:50:00pm

re: #145 zombie

Obama really said that?

/on video

152 runrabbitrun  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:50:05pm

As medical science moves along, and they are able to save fetuses babies of shorter and shorter gestation, there will open the real question of whether having an abortion entitles the mother to a dead infant, or whether a child which can be saved is entitled to its life, once it has left the womb.

The Dems had better get used to the idea that human life begins at conception as a scientific fact, not a philosophical inquiry, and start getting their positions firmed up about this.

153 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:50:45pm
154 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:50:50pm

re: #143 buzzsawmonkey

So, since Obama has given lip service to abstinence education and has been a UC law adjunct, does that make him an abstinence-minded professor?

Please note that Obama is not and never has been entitled to the honorific "Professor." He was a Lecturer - and a part time one at that.

155 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:51:30pm

re: #150 vagabond trader

66 is the number reported. I guarantee you the figure is much higher. Kind of like when you ask a drunk driver how many beers they've consumed. Always multiply the answer by 4.

Yup - those are only the ones that they could not ignore, brush under the rug, conceal or otherwise pretend did not exist.

156 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:51:33pm

re: #151 Killian Bundy

/on video

Captain Clueless strikes again. How anyone can vote for him is mindboggling.

157 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:52:04pm

re: #128 zombie

I thought so but wanted to get you on record, you know how our "friends" troll the comments here.

158 pat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:52:17pm

I think Obama is actually surprised that most people dissaprove of wholesale abortion. i just read an essay by a feminist who says that many of her pears are disgusted by any abortion unless it is medically necessary in the real sense. Having children or grandchildren can do that.

159 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:52:25pm

re: #152 runrabbitrun

As medical science moves along, and they are able to save fetuses babies of shorter and shorter gestation, there will open the real question of whether having an abortion entitles the mother to a dead infant, or whether a child which can be saved is entitled to its life, once it has left the womb.

The Dems had better get used to the idea that human life begins at conception as a scientific fact, not a philosophical inquiry, and start getting their positions firmed up about this.

Many scientists would tell you that life is a never ending circle.

160 pat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:53:11pm

pears = peers. Pears are what old feminist look like.
/ducks

161 swamprat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:53:15pm

re: #156 Catttt....O'blivious

162 FrogMarch  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:53:41pm

re: #114 StinkHammer

Well FWIW (usually not much), when it comes to the abortion debate I personally follow the Neal Boortz rule: I don't discuss it. Not worth the headache.

Considering the extremely contentious nature of the issue, I almost feel more comfortable debating science vs. ID -- and even that's a push....

[Speaking of ID, I see where Ben Stein is scheduled for a Q & A interview on C-SPAN at 8:00 EST for those interested in listening to some pretentious drivel....]

ooo pretentious drivel... I love pretentious drivel.

163 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:53:44pm
164 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:53:47pm

re: #140 galloping granny

,900So, using your figures, each year there are about 1900 "live births" following abortion.

This is the nation that finds it horrible that we have lost "almost" 5000 soldiers in the last 5 years or so. Just about half the number of "live births" that happen each year.

Too few to concern ourselves with? I think not.

This is not abortion. This is murder.

re: #142 vagabond trader

As a former nurse, who likes to believe her professional behavior was never sadistic, I can tell you with absolute certainty that scenario's very close to what you dismiss as fantasy have occurred, as described by my former colleagues.Sophisticated folk may call it euthanasia, benign neglect, or what have you, it is still disturbing, infanticide, and the Obama is ok with it.

As for your "famous abortion" doc,you may as well add rich to that description;money soothes many a conscience

re: #132 Catttt

Here is a piece on the NHS stats (UK) - this is apparently not something that has been tracked or spoken of a lot in the past, and as the story mentions, this stat wa buried in the small print.

In a way that makes me cringe, this whole subject reminds me of the the "I'm not dead yet" scene from the Monty Python movie.

66 babies in a year left to die after NHS abortions that go wrong
05.02.08

Well, I'm not claiming to be an expert in this field in the slightest -- I don't have hard documented facts in front of me about how many aborted fetuses survive every year in the US (as opposed to the UK), nor about how many of those are intentionally killed by the medical staff. But in all my time as a news junkie, I've never seen any irrefutable evidence of such a thing happening on any kind of frequent basis, aside from unverifiable anecdotes.

165 spaceman  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:54:35pm

Once a person accepts that it is OK to kill an infant so long at it is inside the womb, the mental gymnastics required to defend the ramifications of that assertion are likely to sprain the soul.

166 RTLM  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:54:40pm

aside question: Is anyone else have trouble with youtube now?
(no sound, slow downloads)

167 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:54:41pm

re: #158 pat

I think Obama is actually surprised that most people dissaprove of wholesale abortion. i just read an essay by a feminist who says that many of her pears are disgusted by any abortion unless it is medically necessary in the real sense. Having children or grandchildren can do that.

It isn't even having grandchildren. I was around "back in the day" - and "pro-choice", by which I and every other "feminist" I knew meant "this is between me and my G_d" and if you have to face it, then it is between you and your G_d."

The term "pro-choice" has been hijacked by the segment of the population that is in fact pro abortion.

168 lawhawk  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:55:33pm

re: #139 pingjockey

Indeed. The Iranians make claims that simply don't stand a closer inspection. Look at the aircraft in their arsenal. They're either retired US aircraft, or variants of older Russian aircraft (based on Chinese models), and even the newest Iranian homegrown aircraft are retreads of obsolete US aircraft.

169 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:55:50pm

re: #153 buzzsawmonkey

Not ever gonna happen. Michelle-ma-belle would make sure they were packin' before the oppotunity knocked.

170 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:56:26pm

Folks, listen please.

Zombie looked at the wrong figures. 1.9 million abortions a year. The study, however looked at only 3189 abortions of which 3.3% were born alive. 3.3% of 1.9 million is a goodly number of people, err potential people.

171 mich-again  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:56:56pm

Life begins at conception. Thats science, not opinion.

172 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:57:28pm

re: #164 zombie

Well, I'm not claiming to be an expert in this field in the slightest -- I don't have hard documented facts in front of me about how many aborted fetuses survive every year in the US (as opposed to the UK), nor about how many of those are intentionally killed by the medical staff. But in all my time as a news junkie, I've never seen any irrefutable evidence of such a thing happening on any kind of frequent basis, aside from unverifiable anecdotes.

You don't really think that medical personnel run out and tell the friendly neighborhood newspaper, do you? For starters, it would be worth a nurse's job to do so. And it would also be a violation of patient confidentiality - which would mean that the nurse in question would lose her license to practice.

173 vagabond trader  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:57:53pm

A dear friend, sadly of the moonbat persuasion, is coming to visit. Her vile FIL wanted her to abort her baby, hoping this would end the relationship with his son. She was appalled and now has a great little boy. Cannot wait to show her that the Obama is just as much a pr#ck as she thinks her FIL was on this issue.

174 Lynn B.  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:58:39pm

re: #171 mich-again

Life begins at conception. Thats science, not opinion.

Really?!

175 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:58:45pm

re: #170 razorbacker

Folks, listen please.

Zombie looked at the wrong figures. 1.9 million abortions a year. The study, however looked at only 3189 abortions of which 3.3% were born alive. 3.3% of 1.9 million is a goodly number of people, err potential people.



62,700 people to be precise.

176 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:58:54pm

re: #171 mich-again

Life begins at conception. Thats science, not opinion.

/it doesn't become independent of the mother until it's viable outside the womb

177 swamprat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:59:12pm

re: #29 zombie

Wow, Charles has posted a semi-abortion thread.

Let's the arguments commence!

Personally, I recommend feeding all newborns into the Soylent Green Machine -- which also will solve third-world hunger problems!



...Just for edification;
Jonathan Swifts' "a modest proposal" (1729)

178 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:59:42pm

re: #173 vagabond trader

A dear friend, sadly of the moonbat persuasion, is coming to visit. Her vile FIL wanted her to abort her baby, hoping this would end the relationship with his son. She was appalled and now has a great little boy. Cannot wait to show her that the Obama is just as much a pr#ck as she thinks her FIL was on this issue.

The "other grandparents" of my precious eldest grandchild tried exactly the same thing.

179 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 4:59:50pm
180 RTLM  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:00:08pm

re: #168 lawhawk


re: #139 pingjockey
Indeed. The Iranians make claims that simply don't stand a closer inspection. Look at the aircraft in their arsenal. They're either retired US aircraft, or variants of older Russian aircraft (based on Chinese models), and even the newest Iranian homegrown aircraft are retreads of obsolete US aircraft.

They could make it to Israel if all they had to worry about was fuel and range. But Israel, US Navy or the USAF would shoot them down well before.

181 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:00:08pm

re: #176 Killian Bundy

/it doesn't become independent of the mother until it's viable outside the womb

Some don't become independent of the mother till long after that!

182 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:00:33pm

re: #176 Killian Bundy

/it doesn't become independent of the mother until it's viable outside the womb

Babies also can't survive after birth without a good deal of help from others, so in a sense, they are still "not viable" outside the womb.

183 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:01:08pm

re: #180 RTLM

They could make it to Israel if all they had to worry about was fuel and range. But Israel, US Navy or the USAF would shoot them down well before.

They would have to overfly Iraq to get there though. Not happening anytime soon.

184 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:01:47pm

re: #181 Nevergiveup

Some don't become independent of the mother till long after that!

And some never seem to become independent of mama or simply transfer their dependence to wifey.

185 swamprat  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:01:59pm

re: #181 Nevergiveup My sister had a stainless steel umbilical cord, with titanium cladding!

186 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:02:03pm

re: #8 FrogMarch

It's great that you just posted this, Charles. I was just reading Althouse blog (I know, she used to make me cringe)... She makes an excellent post/observation regarding this subject.

(why she is a lawyer and I'm not)

Great stuff...thanks for the link..

187 lawhawk  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:02:30pm

re: #180 RTLM

Agreed - it would be a suicide mission - literally and figuratively.

188 WriterMom  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:02:49pm

re: #179 buzzsawmonkey

Those damned Zoroastrians, huh?

189 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:02:59pm

re: #153 buzzsawmonkey

Here's the question: if Obama found out his daughters were having unprotected sex before they became pregnant, would they be punished without a baby?

That's above his pay grade.

190 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:04:11pm

re: #170 razorbacker

Isn't ' potential person' an errant concept? You were right the first time......

191 RTLM  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:04:27pm

re: #182 Catttt

Babies also can't survive after birth without a good deal of help from others, so in a sense, they are still "not viable" outside the womb.

Its called love. Dems have trouble with the subject.

192 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:04:38pm

re: #189 Macker

That's above his pay grade.

Does it piss anyone else off that this SOB who has never served his country in any way uses the term pay grade? Or is it just me?

193 Lynn B.  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:05:05pm

re: #182 Catttt

Babies also can't survive after birth without a good deal of help from others, so in a sense, they are still "not viable" outside the womb.

"Others" is not the same thing as "mother."

194 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:05:13pm
195 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:05:30pm

re: #184 galloping granny

And some never seem to become independent of mama or simply transfer their dependence to wifey.

And Mr. One would have his mother, (and grandmother) as advisors if he had the option!

196 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:05:38pm

re: #176 Killian Bundy

Check your watch, because that threshold is being reset every year or so.

197 Colonel Panik  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:05:53pm

So Pat Robertson is interviewing the Anti-Christ?

The End Times™ are upon us!


/ducks, runs

198 debutaunt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:06:11pm

re: #192 Nevergiveup

Does it piss anyone else off that this SOB who has never served his country in any way uses the term pay grade? Or is it just me?

It was the best term his 300 great thinkers could come up with.

199 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:06:36pm

re: #193 Lynn B.

"Others" is not the same thing as "mother."

No. It includes fathers, aunts, uncles, brothers, sisters, grandmas, grandpas...etc., etc.

200 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:06:51pm

re: #182 Catttt

Babies also can't survive after birth without a good deal of help from others, so in a sense, they are still "not viable" outside the womb.

/self perpetuating generations of welfare recipients will tell you that, it's the only life they know and they know the rules

201 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:06:56pm

re: #193 Lynn B.
Don't fret, there are plenty of moonbats who have no problem with fourth and fifth trimester abortions.

202 Lynn B.  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:07:03pm

re: #192 Nevergiveup

Does it piss anyone else off that this SOB who has never served his country in any way uses the term pay grade? Or is it just me?

It's not a strictly military term, so no. But it struck me as extremely inappropriate in the context he used it. That teleprompter sure would have come in handy there.

203 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:07:15pm
204 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:07:45pm

The more I listen to Barry, the more he comes across as a spineless double talking shit.

205 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:07:54pm

re: #198 debutaunt

It's a smart-ass term as used by the One, but it's really popular on campus.

206 Lynn B.  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:08:49pm

re: #201 tradewind

Don't fret, there are plenty of moonbats who have no problem with fourth and fifth trimester abortions.

What, me fret?

207 debutaunt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:09:03pm

re: #205 tradewind

It's a smart-ass term as used by the One, but it's really popular on campus.

I've heard it used and thought that all his advisors really could have done better.

208 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:09:10pm

re: #196 tradewind

Check your watch, because that threshold is being reset every year or so.

/and it's easy to keep track of

209 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:09:22pm

re: #198 debutaunt

It was the best term his 300 great thinkers could come up with.

Apparently he has used that term before about a year ago in a speech. Recycled quotations.

210 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:09:26pm

re: #202 Lynn B.

It's not a strictly military term, so no. But it struck me as extremely inappropriate in the context he used it. That teleprompter sure would have come in handy there.

No not strictly Military, but generally GI related, as in Government Issued. So most civilian employees of our government do have pay grades. It's not really a business term.

211 debutaunt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:10:08pm

re: #209 galloping granny

Apparently he has used that term before about a year ago in a speech. Recycled quotations.

Pretty darn lame.

212 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:10:25pm

re: #204 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The more I listen to Barry, the more he comes across as a spineless double talking shit.

/OBAMA AKBAR!

213 lawhawk  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:11:11pm

So, he's apparently not of the pay grade to give his opinion on a subject that millions of people want to know - and one on which tens of millions of voters have a view.

How exactly is he able to get a pass on this? Is he trying to be too cute by half to say that only G-d knows the answer to the question? Because if that's the case, he's got himself a whole mess to contend with because pro-Choice takes the position that they indeed know the answer to the question.

Besides, if you are going to be President of the US - there is no higher pay grade. You're it. The buck stops there. You make the difficult decisions, because all the easy ones are made well before they get to your desk.

And you can't avoid answering questions by claiming they're above your pay grade because that's your job as President - to answer the questions that all the other pay grades avoid.

214 Lynn B.  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:11:16pm

re: #203 buzzsawmonkey

#2 would be the rabbi.

And a fair number of scientists as well.

215 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:11:23pm

re: #192 Nevergiveup

Does it piss anyone else off that this SOB who has never served his country in any way uses the term pay grade? Or is it just me?

I'm not angry about that, just the way he used it. He's running for POTUS. The old saying "The buck stops here" means everything is in his pay grade.

216 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:11:58pm

post yesterday, He has no idea what a 'pay grade' even IS!

see below

#473 Dizzy26 8/16/2008 8:12:01 pm PDT


Don't think he ever had a 'pay grade'. Not as I remember them

I Started at $ 89.90 E-1 and went all the way to $535.60 (E-5, + fdpay

But that's when a buck was really a buck! :-)

217 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:12:02pm

I still think, as I have for many years, that the abortion fight is actually a proxy war for a different battle altogether: the pro-life stance is a metphor for a pro-sexual-morality philosophy, and the pro-choice stance is a metaphor for a sexual anarchy "free love" philosophy. Pregnancy, in this view, is the indicator of what type of behavior you've been engaging in. Pro-choice people want women to engage in non-marital sex all will, without moral, legal or physical consequences. Pro-life people want there to be legal consequences, because there are already moral cosequences the other side won't acknowledge.

So, the question comes down to this. Whichever side of the debate you're on, how would you answer this question:

--------------

Suppose medical science developed an easily reversible birth-control method for women and girls that was 100% effective and had no side effects, and could be administered or de-administered at will in such a way that the woman didn't have to 'remember" to do anything. Say, a single pill that could be swallowed that rendered you completely infertile for an entire year, but wore off after a year. At that once a year, any girl over the age of 12 could just swallow this pill and never get pregnant. If she later decided she wanted kids, she could stop taking it, with no risk or side effects. Furthermore (for the sake of argument), let's just say that another pill provided near-perfect immunity to all known venereal diseases. Hence, girls/women could engage in sexual intercourse at will with no risk of physical consequences. Question: Would you support this pill being sold over-the-counter, or at least make it legal to be prescribed to underage girls without requiring their parents' permission?

a. Yes: Sex is fun, everybody should be free to do it, and if we can protect girls this way, why not?

b. Yes: We can't stop the sexual urge anyway, girls are going to do it whether we like it or not, so we might as well protect them.

c. No, too-early sex leads to emotional issues, heartache, misery, etc.; we shouldn't encourage them by making it easy for them.

d. No, non-marital sex is inherently immoral, and we should definitely not make an immoral act easier to commit.

e. Fill in your own answer: _________

218 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:12:10pm

Every time I hear the expression ' above my paygrade ' it reminds me of that dude from some old sitcome who always excused laziness with a shrug and a heavily accented ' S'not my yob'.

219 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:12:19pm

More than 300 foreign policy advisors.

/there's something basically wrong with that

220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:12:35pm

Hi folks! Just got in. Is Obama still a liar?

221 CapeCoddah  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:12:43pm

re: #171 mich-again

Life begins at conception. Thats science, not opinion.


Good evening lizards!
Mich, I agree with you totally on that. I detest the argument that at conception, the fetus is not human. What is it then, a dog, a cow? No, it is a human being.

222 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:12:54pm

I know we don't all agree on the subject of abortion.

HOWEVER

I think we can virtually (because I know nothing is ever 100%) all agree that Barry is wildly over his head and not a fit candidate for President. I still think Senator Clinton has a shot at it.

223 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:13:07pm

re: #220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi folks! Just got in. Is Obama still a liar?

Way cool

224 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:13:13pm

re: #220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi folks! Just got in. Is Obama still a liar?

Does a russian shit in the woods?

225 Lynn B.  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:13:21pm

re: #210 Nevergiveup

No not strictly Military, but generally GI related, as in Government Issued. So most civilian employees of our government do have pay grades. It's not really a business term.

Yeah, it is.

E.g.

I got more links if you want 'em. Your underlying point is well taken though.

226 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:13:29pm

FWIW: My mother is one of those Republicans who was going to vote for Obama. She's from the South, grew up with Segregation and is one of those who thinks this would be the final symbolic nail in the coffin for the segregationist haters she grew up with.
After the debate she switched to McCain, I've just gotten the email from her on it.

227 CapeCoddah  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:13:46pm

re: #204 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The more I listen to Barry, the more he comes across as a spineless double talking shit.

Typical educatonal level of an Obama supporter:

228 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:14:13pm

re: #213 lawhawk

And you can't avoid answering questions by claiming they're above your pay grade because that's your job as President - to answer the questions that all the other pay grades avoid.

And that, my friend, is the problem in a nutshell. Right, wrong, or somewhere in between, the POTUS has to make the decision.

Choose wisely, America. It makes a difference.

229 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:14:26pm

Pimf, sit com.
No e.
time to quit typin'....re: #218 tradewind

230 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:14:34pm

re: #226 Thanos

Your mama is one smart Republican!

231 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:14:49pm

re: #213 lawhawk

How exactly is he able to get a pass on this?

/hey, as Harry Truman's evil twin might have said, the buck stops somewhere else

232 Lynn B.  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:15:34pm

re: #228 razorbacker

And that, my friend, is the problem in a nutshell. Right, wrong, or somewhere in between, the POTUS has to make the decision.

Not this decision, he/she doesn't.

233 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:15:57pm

re: #225 Lynn B.

Yeah, it is.

E.g.

I got more links if you want 'em. Your underlying point is well taken though.

Well since That is a State School, I may quibble, but I doubt Obama understands the nuances of the term anyway. And life is short also, so I will cede the point.

234 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:16:07pm

re: #219 Killian Bundy

More than 300 foreign policy advisors.

/there's something basically wrong with that

Yup. Sure is. Particularly for a President, who has to handle one crisis after another on a daily basis. How do you even keep 300 advisors up to speed?

Not to mention the national security issue: POTUS is entitled to appoint ONE national security adviser - not 301 - and release of intelligence information to anyone who is not authorized (so 300 extras) is illegal. And dangerous to our national well being.

235 LeonidasOfSparta  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:16:29pm

re: #215 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

amen! Everything that happens, is rumored to happen, might happen, did happen and may happen after he leaves office IS HIS DAMN PAYGRADE.

And he apparently thinks there will be someone else with a higher paygrade to whom he will defer when the rubber meets the road?

Go back to the Senate, Hussein, you don't have the balls for the job.

236 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:16:37pm

re: #232 Lynn B.

Not this decision, he/she doesn't.

Oh yes he/she does!

237 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:16:38pm

re: #228 razorbacker

And that, my friend, is the problem in a nutshell. Right, wrong, or somewhere in between, the POTUS has to make the decision.

Choose wisely, America. It makes a difference.

Barry will defer to the opinion of the UN and the ICC.

238 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:17:28pm
239 debutaunt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:18:11pm

re: #220 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi folks! Just got in. Is Obama still a liar?

The pay grade stops with Obama.

240 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:18:27pm

re: #170 razorbacker

Folks, listen please.

Zombie looked at the wrong figures. 1.9 million abortions a year. The study, however looked at only 3189 abortions of which 3.3% were born alive. 3.3% of 1.9 million is a goodly number of people, err potential people.

No. The article implies pretty clearly that the other 1,896,811 abortions were early-term vacuum-tube abortions in which 0% of the embryos survived. The grand total, was that out of 1,900,000 abortions of all kinds performed in a decade, only 102 had surviving fetuses.

Read it carefully.

241 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:18:32pm
242 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:19:18pm

re: #226 Thanos

FWIW: My mother is one of those Republicans who was going to vote for Obama. She's from the South, grew up with Segregation and is one of those who thinks this would be the final symbolic nail in the coffin for the segregationist haters she grew up with.
After the debate she switched to McCain, I've just gotten the email from her on it.

Good for your Mama. You should CC that note to John McCain if your mama wouldn't mind. I think he would get a kick out of it and I think it would encourage him greatly to know that his words reached some hearts.

243 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:19:51pm

re: #175 galloping granny


62,700 people to be precise.

Read the article again. It states unequivocally that 102 fetuses survived, grand total, over a ten -year span.

244 Mich-again  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:20:02pm

re: #221 CapeCoddah

I'm just using the same logic that has been plastered all over the ID threads.

Imagine if a scientist came out and said he had created in his lab a single cell that given the right conditions, would continue to divide and grow and form until an entire living creature resulted from that one cell.

Would any other scientist look at the single cell and say, yeah but you really haven't created life yet. Its not viable on its own.

245 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:20:11pm

I'm with zombie on this question. If the baby can survive outside the womb, you may as well give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption if you have waited this long. But before then, well, look----I have had two kids, and I can tell you---you are a parent from the first moment you're pregnant.

Some women cannot be a responsible mother for the 6-9 months it takes to get the child to the point where someone else can take over. Some conceptions happen under completely hopeless situations where nobody will want to take over (mother or anyone else), short of the state coming in and warehousing the child for the rest of his or her life, as short as it may be.

I became pregnant out-of-wedlock about four years ago. But I had a full-time job, the father was definitely involved, and would step up and be a father to the child (as well as the child from my previous marriage), and if he didn't step up and I had to move back to Houston and live with my mother, I had the education and skills to work a well-paying job down there. Abortion was out of the question. The boyfriend and I got married, and two weeks later, I gave birth to our son. I wouldn't trade father or son for anything.

246 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:20:37pm
232 Lynn B. 8/17/08 5:15:34 pm reply quote 0

re: #228 razorbacker

And that, my friend, is the problem in a nutshell. Right, wrong, or somewhere in between, the POTUS has to make the decision.


Not this decision, he/she doesn't.


In a way, yeah he/she does, because people want to know a candidate's stand on the issue. The President will be charged with appointing supreme court justices, and abortion is a constitutional issue - a huge one. There are consequences - again, big ones - based on the President's decisions here.

247 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:22:00pm

re: #232 Lynn B.

Not this decision, he/she doesn't.

If you are speaking of abortion, that decision was decided somewhere in the penumbra of the Constitution. We are not going back to pre-Roe days, that ship has sailed.

I don't care what your decision is regarding your fetus/baby or however you decide to look at it. Your right, if you're female, is to abort your fetus/baby up to the moment of actual birth. That is your right as a female.

But those other 'pay-grade' decisions, that is what the POTUS has to do. Make the decision.

248 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:22:09pm

Sadly, this is all moot, because the One is being annointed by Her One -ness:

[Link: community.tvguide.com...]

249 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:22:39pm

Completely OT:

These are the best ribs I ever smoked, bar none, the pic was taken when they were about 3/4 done.

250 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:23:01pm
251 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:23:06pm

re: #249 Thanos

Completely OT:

These are the best ribs I ever smoked, bar none, the pic was taken when they were about 3/4 done.

oops. The link.

252 Lynn B.  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:23:08pm

re: #236 Dizzy26

Oh yes he/she does!

Sorry, you're just plain wrong about that one. We have this thing called separation of powers? Some things are up to the Congress and the Courts, whether you like it or not, and this is one of 'em.

253 Wm T Sherman  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:23:09pm

re: #30 tradewind

Help comes from the most unexpected places...
Thanks and a hat tip, Koskidz....keep digging for us, will ya?
[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

It's a joke. Story was fabricated by the diarist for laughs.

254 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:23:32pm

re: #245 RememberSekhmet?

:D

255 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:23:43pm

re: #245 RememberSekhmet?

I'm with zombie on this question. If the baby can survive outside the womb, you may as well give birth to the baby and give it up for adoption if you have waited this long. But before then, well, look----I have had two kids, and I can tell you---you are a parent from the first moment you're pregnant.
The boyfriend and I got married, and two weeks later, I gave birth to our son. I wouldn't trade father or son for anything.

Good going....and Rightmarches on!

256 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:24:04pm

re: #243 zombie

Read the article again. It states unequivocally that 102 fetuses survived, grand total, over a ten -year span.

I didn't read the article in the first place Zombie. I first quoted your own math at you and I second used my handy dandy calculator to figure out 3.3% of 1.900.000 for the other poster.

I don't care if it is only one child per year nationwide. Even one is one too many. Setting a child born alive aside to die because it was supposed to be aborted is murder - plain and simple. Unequivocal. Murder.

257 WriterMom  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:24:16pm

re: #247 razorbacker

So the father of the child has no right to any input? He's just a sperm donor?

258 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:25:42pm

re: #247 razorbacker

that decision was decided somewhere in the penumbra of the Constitution.

I'm sorry, the Constitution DOESN'T HAVE A [EXPLETIVE DELETED] PENUMBRA!

/as a lawyer, that fiction pisses me off to no end

259 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:26:06pm

re: #257 WriterMom

So the father of the child has no right to any input? He's just a sperm donor?

That's what my goddamn ex-wife says about me. Fucking Imperial Bitch.

260 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:26:24pm

re: #257 WriterMom

So the father of the child has no right to any input? He's just a sperm donor?

Well my wife asks me my opinion on every decision involving the kids. Of course she ignores it or ridicules my input, but she always asks for the laughs!

261 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:26:34pm

I think Obama in a position of power and influence is bad for America.
There. That's as simple as I can put it.

262 debutaunt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:27:32pm

re: #260 Nevergiveup

Well my wife asks me my opinion on every decision involving the kids. Of course she ignores it or ridicules my input, but she always asks for the laughs!

If your husband makes you laugh, you'll keep him forever.

263 Lynn B.  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:27:58pm

re: #246 Catttt

In a way, yeah he/she does, because people want to know a candidate's stand on the issue. The President will be charged with appointing supreme court justices, and abortion is a constitutional issue - a huge one. There are consequences - again, big ones - based on the President's decisions here.

Ok, agreed. The President has the ability to appoint SC justices ... assuming there are vacancies on the Court during the President's term (no guarantee of that). Sometimes, the appointee rules the way the President expected. Sometimes, not so much. (Who appointed Blackmun again? Who appointed Souter?)

So, no, the President does not get to make this decision. He/she can only hope to help to guide it. (I'm not going to be voting for the candidate I agree with on this issue, BTW.)

And on that note, as I've advised others to do on threads that send their blood pressure through the ceiling, I'll be moving along now.

Have fun.

264 WriterMom  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:28:02pm

re: #259 Macker

Sorry to hear that. I think that's a pretty common scenario.

Maybe these types should just hook up with turkey basters instead of men. Would probably save them a lot of trouble.

265 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:28:04pm

re: #251 Thanos

Nice.

266 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:28:21pm

re: #257 WriterMom

He had his input, and yeah, he's ' just' that... unless he is signed up to take care of the child for eighteen+ from the get-go. The man and woman are like the chicken and the pig and their contribution to a bacon and eggs breakfast.... the chicken is involved, but the pig's committed.

267 Blackacre  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:29:03pm

Liar.

"They’re engaging in the kind of politics that I think we’ve become accustomed to which is you try to tear your opponents down and you engage in sort of slash and burn tactics. And very personal sort of personal character attacks. And one of the challenges for us in this campaign is how do you make sure those attacks are answered quickly and forcefully, but also truthfully and that we don’t fall into that same kind of tactic."

Liar. Liar. Liar.

"We know what kind of campaign they're going to run. They’re going to try to make you afraid. They’re going to try to make you afraid of me. He’s young and inexperienced and he’s got a funny name. And did I mention he’s black?"
"And so the only way they figure they're going to win this election is if they make you scared of me. So what they’re saying is, 'Well, we know we’re not very good but you can’t risk electing Obama. You know, he’s new, he ... doesn’t look like the other presidents on the currency, you know, he’s got a, he’s got a funny name.'"
"But, since they don’t have any new ideas the only strategy they’ve got in this election is to try to scare you about me. They're going to try to say that I’m a risky guy, they’re going to try to say, 'Well, you know, he’s got a funny name and he doesn’t look like all the presidents on the dollar bills and the five dollar bills' and, and they’re going to send out nasty emails."
"So what they're going to try to do is make you scared of me. You know, 'he's not patriotic enough, he's got a funny name,' you know, 'he doesn't look like all those other presidents on the dollar bills.'"
268 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:29:26pm

re: #264 WriterMom

Sorry to hear that. I think that's a pretty common scenario.

Maybe these types should just hook up with turkey basters instead of men. Would probably save them a lot of trouble.

Would you send my ex one of those as her 58th birthday present in October?

/snicker

269 Colonel Panik  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:29:29pm

re: #249 Thanos

Completely OT:

These are the best ribs I ever smoked, bar none, the pic was taken when they were about 3/4 done.

"I want my baby back baby back baby back...Chili's baby back riiiiiiibs!"

270 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:29:34pm

re: #256 galloping granny

I didn't read the article in the first place Zombie. I first quoted your own math at you and I second used my handy dandy calculator to figure out 3.3% of 1.900.000 for the other poster.

I screwed up the math a bit in my original comment. Sorry about that.

I don't care if it is only one child per year nationwide. Even one is one too many. Setting a child born alive aside to die because it was supposed to be aborted is murder - plain and simple. Unequivocal. Murder.

I agree with you on that. My only point is that I don't think it happens very often. It is extremely rare.

Look, this all a lot of smokescreen and foofaraw. The basic fact is: Obama is unabashedly 100% pro-abortion. The only area where he might waffle a bit is in those extremely few medical-miracle-moments when a fetus survives a very late-term attempted abortion. If you're a pro-life voter, remember that Obama supports abortion in 99.99% of cases.

271 WriterMom  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:29:41pm

re: #266 tradewind

What happens when the "sperm donor" want to have the child, and wants to support it, but the mother (host incubator?) doesn't want to have the child?

272 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:30:36pm

re: #269 Colonel Panik

SHUT THE FRAK UP COLONEL! You're making me hungry!

/ROFL

273 yochanan  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:30:40pm

re: #27 Killian Bundy

What do you have against small mammals?

274 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:30:44pm

Fish Biryani = yum!

275 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:31:27pm
276 Mich-again  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:31:42pm

re: #251 Thanos

Nice looking ribs Thanos. You say you smoked them. What kind of wood chips did you use.

I grilled some steaks today for dinner and we had sweet corn from the farm market down the street. Ribs are an all day job but they're worth it.

277 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:32:25pm

re: #240 zombie

No. The article implies pretty clearly that the other 1,896,811 abortions were early-term vacuum-tube abortions in which 0% of the embryos survived. The grand total, was that out of 1,900,000 abortions of all kinds performed in a decade, only 102 had surviving fetuses.

Read it carefully.

Okay. I've read it again. I don't see where it says that a different method of abortion was used in these 3189 abortions. That may be the case, but I don't see it.

Julia Millington of the anti-abortion campaign Alive and Kicking said the rates found at West Midlands hospitals studied were likely to be mirrored elsewhere in the UK. ‘If 102 out of 3,189 babies aborted for reasons of impairment are born alive, then how many healthy babies must be surviving?’ she said. ‘It is difficult to comprehend the number of babies, throughout the country, left fighting for their lives.’

This lady has an agenda, I admit it. But I did read it again.

278 vagabond trader  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:32:36pm

re: #251 Thanos

Lovely color.

279 Colonel Panik  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:32:57pm

re: #272 Macker

SHUT THE FRAK UP COLONEL! You're making me hungry!

/ROFL

Macker, you need to drive to the corner of Via de Ventura and Via de Negocios (sp) in Scottsdale, just east of the 101. There's a corporation there called CYLON! I sh** you not.

I cracked up when I saw it.

280 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:33:11pm

re: #271 WriterMom

Umm, possession is nine tenths of the law....?
I'm being sarcastic here. Point is, men often impregnate women and never even know it. That's not possible for a woman.
Don't get me wrong.
I have the utmost sympathy for a man who fathers a child and wants to be involved in his/her life, only to run into a roadblock of a woman who is using a child as a pawn or a punishment.

281 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:33:39pm

re: #261 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think Obama in a position of power and influence is bad for America.
There. That's as simple as I can put it.

there ,, I put it simpler

282 WriterMom  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:34:04pm

re: #270 zombie

100% pro abortion...that is just so scary. You are correct.

283 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:34:08pm

re: #257 WriterMom

So the father of the child has no right to any input? He's just a sperm donor?

I have known women who had abortions specifically to avoid dealing with the fathers of those babies. The problem is, family law is very stupid. If one parent or the other is a psycho, said psycho parent would have to break the kid's bones on the steps of the courthouse at high noon before the family courts might possibly start considering the possibility that perhaps there is a good reason one parent is trying to restrict the other's access.

284 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:34:52pm

re: #263 Lynn B.

Ok, agreed. The President has the ability to appoint SC justices ... assuming there are vacancies on the Court during the President's term (no guarantee of that). Sometimes, the appointee rules the way the President expected. Sometimes, not so much. (Who appointed Blackmun again? Who appointed Souter?)

So, no, the President does not get to make this decision. He/she can only hope to help to guide it. (I'm not going to be voting for the candidate I agree with on this issue, BTW.)

And on that note, as I've advised others to do on threads that send their blood pressure through the ceiling, I'll be moving along now.

Have fun.

Bottom line on this for me - we pretty much have a 50/50 "strict constructionist" success rate with Republicans, and we have totally liberal left appointments from the Dem. Half is better than none, to me. Of course, the prospective appointees do not answer what their opinion of abortion is - that is not relevant. It is how they view the constitution and the law therefrom.

285 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:35:55pm

re: #270 zombie

I agree with you on that. My only point is that I don't think it happens very often. It is extremely rare.

Look, this all a lot of smokescreen and foofaraw. The basic fact is: Obama is unabashedly 100% pro-abortion. The only area where he might waffle a bit is in those extremely few medical-miracle-moments when a fetus survives a very late-term attempted abortion. If you're a pro-life voter, remember that Obama supports abortion in 99.99% of cases.

I personally do not care about Obama's views on abortion. As far as I am concerned, when a man can have a baby then he should have something to say about abortion and until that day, abortion is between an individual woman and her particular god, because she is the one who must someday answer for her beliefs and her actions.

This particular bill that he killed and now lies about, it isn't about abortion, it is about the knowing and deliberate murder of a helpless infant. And that tells me every last thing that I ever need to know about his moral code. Life means absolutely nothing to him, And if he has no care and concern for the most helpless among us, then he has no care and concern for you or me or our children or our elderly or our veterans or our nation or anyone else in the world. That is ALL I need to know about him.

286 Colonel Panik  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:36:04pm

re: #264 WriterMom

Sorry to hear that. I think that's a pretty common scenario.

Maybe these types should just hook up with turkey basters instead of men. Would probably save them a lot of trouble.

The turkey baster giveth, and the vacuum tube taketh away...

Speaking of "turkey baster" relationships...have you seen Ellen Degeneres' new "wife"? Some actress with an Italian name, very "hawt". Definitely not a "Code Pink" lesbian....

287 WriterMom  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:37:08pm

re: #283 RememberSekhmet?

I guess my main beef is that abortion should not be used, or regarded as birth control. It makes me absolutely sick that in this day and age-people don't use birth control if they don't want a pregnancy. SICK.

288 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:37:23pm

re: #258 Killian Bundy

I'm sorry, the Constitution DOESN'T HAVE A [EXPLETIVE DELETED] PENUMBRA!

/as a lawyer, that fiction pisses me off to no end

as Justice Blackmun worded the decision, Roe was based on “the right to privacy” which is nowhere in the Constitution. In fact, he uses the word “penumbra”, meaning shadow or “in the shadow” quite a bit to derive a “right to privacy” from the Constitution.

Who am I, a mere mortal, to argue with the learned Justice Blackmum?

289 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:37:35pm

re: #283 RememberSekhmet?

The problem is, family law is very stupid. If one parent or the other is a psycho, said psycho parent would have to break the kid's bones on the steps of the courthouse at high noon before the family courts might possibly start considering the possibility that perhaps there is a good reason one parent is trying to restrict the other's access.

/man, family law lawyers deserve combat pay, it's ridiculous

290 Clutch  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:38:08pm

Uhhh, 'scuse me, Mr. Obama, but my salary has increased by almost 100% in the last eight years (and is six digits to the left of the decimal place) and my taxes have gone up accordingly, so f*ck you very much. I've done well by my own efforts with ANY gub'mint help, f*uck ya again very much, so get the f*ck outta my pocket and my way and let me do what I do best, produce!

Maybe if your fellow s#itwhistles in Congress (the opposite of progress) hadn't played grabass with the American public by actually DOING something about the increasing cost of energy (fast-tracking more nuclear power plants, drilling for oil in OUR own resources, reducing the amount you vampires suck off in the way of gas taxes, etc) instead of giving verbal BJ's to the sheep that follow you (oooh, b3@$+liaty another act for the Dims to 'protect' to get more votes!) maybe the USA would not be in the condition it is in. But you f*ckers don't care, as long as you can whip up the hate so you can get back into power, screw the "little man" that you care oh-so-much about. I hope that you lose, lose BIG, in House, Senate and for the race for POTUS. Then maybe you will quit screwing this country for your own personal gain when you Dims realize how outta touch you maggots are with the real world, but I sincerely doubt it.

Have an EXCELLENT evening. Clutch out.

291 lawhawk  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:38:14pm

re: #241 buzzsawmonkey

If Obama says that an answer is "above his pay grade," isn't that really a coded admission by him that he is not ready to lead?

That's racist! /

292 WriterMom  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:38:45pm

re: #286 Colonel Panik

Sure-Portia de Rossi (formely of "Ally McBeal") is good looking. Whatever.

293 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:39:00pm

re: #257 WriterMom

So the father of the child has no right to any input? He's just a sperm donor?

Effectively, yeah. The father may argue, beg, plead. But if the mother decides on an abortion do you think that a judge is going to force her to term?

294 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:39:02pm

re: #264 WriterMom

Sorry to hear that. I think that's a pretty common scenario.

Maybe these types should just hook up with turkey basters instead of men. Would probably save them a lot of trouble.

The Turkey Baster won't call the next day either,,,, but it also doesn't take you to dinner before

295 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:39:11pm

O/T alert
(wishful thinking that the Thread Willl Unravel) but this is really funny, given the climate change moonbats that are fixin' to flood Denver:
[Link: www.wunderground.com...]

296 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:39:36pm

re: #279 Colonel Panik

My gods, you found the Cylon homeworld?

/ROAD TRIP!

297 WriterMom  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:40:08pm

re: #293 razorbacker

Of course not. I find the whole topic incredibly depressing.

298 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:40:13pm

re: #295 tradewind

O/T alert
(wishful thinking that the Thread Willl Unravel) but this is really funny, given the climate change moonbats that are fixin' to flood Denver:
[Link: www.wunderground.com...]

Just praying for a freak "only in Denver" snowstorm!

299 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:41:36pm

re: #288 razorbacker

Who am I, a mere mortal, to argue with the learned Justice Blackmum?

He couldn't find any valid supporting legal argument so he pulled the word penumbra out of his ass.

/and now it's nose under the tent, LLL code for make [expletive deleted] up as you go along

300 yochanan  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:41:53pm

i can accept abortion if a woman's life is in danger or if she was raped but i have a problem with abortion as a birthcontrol method.

a morning after pill for a woman who was raped i have no problem with it.

even if the womans life was in danger and a abortion was allowed if the baby survived to kill it would be murder. Because even if the abortion were alowed to save the woman's life at this point the woman would no longer be in danger.

the jewish tradition allows abortion if the woman's life is in danger or if the woman was raped. But if the only reason is birth control than we don't accept it.

301 kansas  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:42:04pm

re: #3 Da Coyote

Haven't been following things closely. So, to the point. Is Obama lying? I strongly suspect that he is. Democrat. Chicato. US Senator. Hellllloo.

Yes, he is lying. I am just beginning chapter 10 of Freddoso's book on Obama and took a break so I skimmed through the chapter. What a crock of shit this guy is.

302 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:42:23pm

re: #298 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Maybe someone could ask Big Al what the frak is up with the record cooling in Denver?
I'm sure that's not above his pay grade.... he must have a really good answer ready.

303 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:42:45pm

re: #290 Clutch

You can say that again!

304 CapeCoddah  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:43:09pm

re: #285 galloping granny

Granny, the father of an unborn child, who wants his child, even if the mother does not, should absolutely be allowed to care for and raise that child. It is not the fault of the father that they cannot conceive and give birth to a child, why should they be punished by losing their baby to murder at the whim of one parent, when that child is just as much theirs?
As the mother of 2 children, who has seen what an awesome dad my husband is, and how much he adores his children, I could not justify denying him his child if I had ever chosen abortion personally. (which would never have been my choice). I do know a couple who separated just before they found out the wife was pregnant. She aborted the baby, and he tried so hard t stop it. He has never been the same guy. The courts basically told him he had no say in the matter of his childs right to life. Why is it ok for his child to be murdered over his objections? I cannot understand that train of thought.

305 MandyManners  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:43:17pm

BHO sure looked purddy last night.

Hat Tip: KilgoreTrout

306 kansas  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:43:40pm

re: #4 noshariaincanada

when the history books are written, historians will wonder how a candidate like Obama ever became even remotely viable in the minds of *some* people.

Hopefully they won't be wondering how he became President of the United States.

307 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:44:35pm

re: #306 kansas

Hopefully they won't be wondering how he became President of the United States.

From your fingers to G-D's eyes!

308 BignJames  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:44:47pm

re: #302 tradewind

All part of global warming.

/stock answer

309 markx  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:45:07pm

re: #23 vagabond trader

"Let's call a spade a spade?" Good grief, talk about Freudian slips. Pat Robertson as defender of the Obama, a splendid partnership. Mix in Sharpton and you have Shyster, Huckster and Huckster.

Freudian? I don't think so.

Maybe it's just me, but I say that it was an intentional dig.
The Pat Robertson crowd is always coming up with ''slips" like that.

310 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:45:23pm

re: #302 tradewind

Maybe someone could ask Big Al what the frak is up with the record cooling in Denver?
I'm sure that's not above his pay grade.... he must have a really good answer ready.

Your so 2007! It's not GLOBAL WARMING anymore ,, it's the all encompassing CLIMATE CHANGE. Why just today, I was workimg out in the yard at around noon. It was about 90 degrees. Here we are at almost 9 pm and ther CLIMATE has CHANGED to about 75 degrees!
I dread what tomorrow will bring !

311 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:45:25pm
312 Nevergiveup  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:46:06pm

re: #311 ploome hineni

..what have I missed today?

That depends. What's your pay grade?

313 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:46:23pm

re: #299 Killian Bundy
LMAO, because even the moonbat's bible can't manage to dig up the example/definition of a constitutional penumbra to suit 'em.
:)
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

314 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:46:44pm

re: #311 ploome hineni

..what have I missed today?

I showered at about 11

315 Blackacre  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:46:51pm

re: #312 Nevergiveup

Funny.

316 ContraJihadi  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:47:11pm
At a March 29 townhall meeting in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, Obama excoriated abstinence-only education with harsh language. "Look, I got two daughters — nine years old and six years old," he said. "I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby.

Rather says a lot about Obama's values and morals, as well as his notions of personal responsibility, doesn't it?

317 Mosse  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:47:42pm

Thanks to #15 nikis-knight and everybody who posted NRO and legislative docs about this. This guy's method of fending off discussion that he wants to evade is very devious and fairly effective, in that his apparent "dithering" and fragmented sentences and discursive thoughts can easily produce the desired effect, which is confusion and a desire to just get off the subject. You want him to just stop talking and when he comes up with some seeming resolution after four or five sentence fragments that ALL bring up different points -- often unrelated -- you're willing to let the original issue drop. This is quite a technique this guy has and, thanks to Charles and all the Lizards that found the original legal framework and Obama's votes, we have the documentation to keep this central to any policy discussions with this character. Speaking of "bamboozle"... THIS is a "bamboozle."

Tirelessly onward, fellow Lizards. Thanks, Charles.

318 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:47:47pm
319 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:47:52pm

re: #314 sattv4u2

I showered at about 11

Was that YOU?

320 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:47:53pm

re: #312 Nevergiveup

That depends. What's your pay grade?

Lizard. That's good enough for me!

321 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:48:13pm

re: #287 WriterMom

I guess my main beef is that abortion should not be used, or regarded as birth control. It makes me absolutely sick that in this day and age-people don't use birth control if they don't want a pregnancy. SICK.

Amen to that.

322 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:48:18pm

re: #304 CapeCoddah

Granny, the father of an unborn child, who wants his child, even if the mother does not, should absolutely be allowed to care for and raise that child. It is not the fault of the father that they cannot conceive and give birth to a child, why should they be punished by losing their baby to murder at the whim of one parent, when that child is just as much theirs?
As the mother of 2 children, who has seen what an awesome dad my husband is, and how much he adores his children, I could not justify denying him his child if I had ever chosen abortion personally. (which would never have been my choice). I do know a couple who separated just before they found out the wife was pregnant. She aborted the baby, and he tried so hard t stop it. He has never been the same guy. The courts basically told him he had no say in the matter of his childs right to life. Why is it ok for his child to be murdered over his objections? I cannot understand that train of thought.

I am the mother of four and the grandmother of more. Some men make wonderful fathers, others do not. When push comes to shove - particularly if the parties involved are not married, it is the woman who will care for the child, raise the child and support the child. It is the woman who risks her life to birth the child. And it is the particular woman involved who knows her particular situation. Who are you to judge your sister who might be escaping an abusive relationship? Or clog our courts because Mom to be wants chemo and daddy wants the baby. Or any of a hundred other scenarios. Who are you to judge at all? Are YOU going to stand in your sister's place before the Throne of God and take her judgement, since you made her choice?

Sad though it is, men need to learn to be more careful about where they deposit their sperm if they want a say in what happens later.

323 kansas  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:48:25pm

re: #7 sngnsgt

Are his lips moving?

re: #41 hurricane_jimmy

Shameless liar. If this tool gets elected, he'll be a one term failure like the peanut farmer.

Not to mention us. I lived through Carter and can onlhy say............shit.

324 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:49:03pm

re: #276 Mich-again

Nice looking ribs Thanos. You say you smoked them. What kind of wood chips did you use.

I grilled some steaks today for dinner and we had sweet corn from the farm market down the street. Ribs are an all day job but they're worth it.

Chips!? I use small logs and branches, chips burn too hot and dry out the meat.

It was applewood for these, my favorite for pork. I use oak/ mesquite/ etc. for beef, but for pork it's always applewood.

325 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:49:38pm

re: #310 sattv4u2

Hey, I never said it, you want BignJames.......room 308....
:)

326 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:49:45pm

re: #296 Macker

My gods, you found the Cylon homeworld?

/ROAD TRIP!

Trying to snag you a Six?

327 zombie  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:50:36pm

re: #318 buzzsawmonkey

The One has the loneliest penumbra that you'll ever do.

--Yellow Dog Democrat Night

You've graduated to become a 33rd-Degree Punster. Congratulations! Now you get to wear a fez with a little tassle.

328 David Simon  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:50:56pm
the tax code isn’t fair

You're right, asshole, it isn't fair:

The latest release of Internal Revenue Service data on individual income taxes comes from calendar year 2006, a year in which the economy remained healthy and continued to grow, increasing individual income tax collections along with overall average effective tax rates.

This year's numbers show that both the income share earned by the top 1 percent of tax returns and the tax share paid by that top 1 percent have once again reached all-time highs. In 2006, the top 1 percent of tax returns paid 39.9 percent of all federal individual income taxes and earned 22.1 percent of adjusted gross income, both of which are significantly higher than 2004 when the top 1 percent earned 19 percent of adjusted gross income (AGI) and paid 36.9 percent of federal individual income taxes.

[Link: www.taxfoundation.org...]

And those numbers are understated. The rich pay more excise tax and more payroll tax in addition to paying the lion's share of the federal income tax.

Will no one from the mainstream media call Senator Bromide on his populist nonsense?

329 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:51:17pm

re: #322 galloping granny

With all due respect, granny, women also need to be more careful on how they dump said guys after said abortions take place. The guys could simply tell the family what she did.

330 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:51:31pm

re: #321 RememberSekhmet?

Amen to that.

And those same people leave themselves open to STDs, some of which don't have a quick procedure to get rid of the "problem."

When you have sex with someone, you have sex with everyone they've had sex with. Don't trust appearances. It amazes me how clueless young people are about this simple fact.

Things aren't always what they seem
Milk may masquerade as cream.

331 yochanan  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:51:48pm

males are required to pay child support so to me the whole idea only women get to have a say in the matter doesn't hold water. now the % of say might matter but to say men should have no say doesn't fit with what goes on. Now if you were to take the issue of child support off the table the position of only women having a say might be valid. until then i don't buy it.

332 vxbush  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:51:51pm

I actually read Ann Althouse's article on this that was linked above, and the cogent remark she makes is this:

Now, let's also look at Rick Warren's rhetoric. He asked, after a preface about abortion, "when does a baby get human rights in your view?" And, most obviously, his use of "baby" instead of "fetus" or at least "unborn baby" conveys a lot of opinion. But look at what else Warren is doing. He is not asking when does life begin?, a question that is much more susceptible to Obama's answer that only God knows. Warren is asking when do rights begin? That makes it a legal question. And Warren even appends the phrase "in your view."

And isn't Obama a constitutional law lecturer? Sounds like he should have been at the proper pay grade to answer that question.

333 Macker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:51:54pm

re: #326 RememberSekhmet?

Trying to snag you a Six?

I prefer a Three. Notice my avatar!

334 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:52:27pm

re: #274 Killgore Trout

Fish Biryani = yum!



Fish Tikka

335 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:53:18pm
336 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:54:06pm

re: #330 Catttt

And those same people leave themselves open to STDs, some of which don't have a quick procedure to get rid of the "problem."

When you have sex with someone, you have sex with everyone they've had sex with. Don't trust appearances. It amazes me how clueless young people are about this simple fact.

Things aren't always what they seem
Milk may masquerade as cream.

Aha, got you there.

When you have sex with No-one, then what? Ha Ha got ya

337 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:55:34pm

re: #334 Thanos

Damn, that looks good. I'm gonna have to try that.

338 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:55:39pm

I got blisters....so there!

339 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:55:47pm

re: #336 Dizzy26

Aha, got you there.

When you have sex with No-one, then what? Ha Ha got ya

If we are talking Rosy Palm and her fab fingers - you'll grow hair on your palm!/

340 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:55:51pm

re: #336 Dizzy26

Aha, got you there.

When you have sex with No-one, then what? Ha Ha got ya

what you have is my life !

((ooopppssss ,,, did I type that out loud )))

341 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:56:12pm

BB maybe

342 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:56:20pm

re: #329 Macker

With all due respect, granny, women also need to be more careful on how they dump said guys after said abortions take place. The guys could simply tell the family what she did.

Macker, all people need to put far more thought into when, by whom and under what circumstances they choose to bring a child into the world.

343 kynna  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:56:51pm

Sorry to go OT, but I've got a question from gun law knowledgeable lizards.

My husband and I have finally decided we'd like to arm up but he's been on Zoloft for many years (he's a completely upstanding citizen with no history of unlawful behavior). We live in CA. I've been googling and I can't find anything really definitive about whether or not one can be denied a permit for taking anti-depressants.

Maybe it's a fluid issue based on each individual. I could really see them trying to grab this opportunity to deny a permit, though. Especially in CA (although so many people here are on meds ...).

344 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:57:32pm

re: #332 vxbush

I actually read Ann Althouse's article on this that was linked above, and the cogent remark she makes is this:

And isn't Obama a constitutional law lecturer? Sounds like he should have been at the proper pay grade to answer that question.

Yes, but a lecturer is not a full professor. Or even an assistant professor. It does not imply that he has any specialized knowledge - or even chose the textbook that he lectured from.

345 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:58:09pm

re: #343 kynna

Sorry to go OT, but I've got a question from gun law knowledgeable lizards.

My husband and I have finally decided we'd like to arm up but he's been on Zoloft for many years (he's a completely upstanding citizen with no history of unlawful behavior). We live in CA. I've been googling and I can't find anything really definitive about whether or not one can be denied a permit for taking anti-depressants.

Maybe it's a fluid issue based on each individual. I could really see them trying to grab this opportunity to deny a permit, though. Especially in CA (although so many people here are on meds ...).

get the gun permit in your name.

346 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:58:32pm
347 vxbush  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:58:50pm

re: #344 galloping granny

Yes, but a lecturer is not a full professor. Or even an assistant professor. It does not imply that he has any specialized knowledge - or even chose the textbook that he lectured from.

Yes, I realize that, but to me it still reeks that he tried to be flippant and avoid the question by saying it was above his pay grade when he would have more legal knowledge regarding this issue than most people on the street. It was a legal question, and he avoided it.

348 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:59:20pm

re: #343 kynna

Sorry to go OT, but I've got a question from gun law knowledgeable lizards.

My husband and I have finally decided we'd like to arm up but he's been on Zoloft for many years (he's a completely upstanding citizen with no history of unlawful behavior). We live in CA. I've been googling and I can't find anything really definitive about whether or not one can be denied a permit for taking anti-depressants.

Maybe it's a fluid issue based on each individual. I could really see them trying to grab this opportunity to deny a permit, though. Especially in CA (although so many people here are on meds ...).

/call your local sheriff and ask, from a cell phone

349 RememberSekhmet?  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 5:59:52pm

re: #343 kynna

Sorry to go OT, but I've got a question from gun law knowledgeable lizards.

My husband and I have finally decided we'd like to arm up but he's been on Zoloft for many years (he's a completely upstanding citizen with no history of unlawful behavior). We live in CA. I've been googling and I can't find anything really definitive about whether or not one can be denied a permit for taking anti-depressants.

Maybe it's a fluid issue based on each individual. I could really see them trying to grab this opportunity to deny a permit, though. Especially in CA (although so many people here are on meds ...).

I think they are more looking for past involuntary commitment to a mental health facility, or past ruling of incompetence by a court of law.

350 yochanan  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:00:00pm

re: #342 galloping granny

unless you are a child or have mental issues most people have a clue how this happens frankly some people act like a abortion is like getting a toe nail removed. I have a problem with the morality of that. At least were i accept abortion i know it is the lesser of two evils and not on the same level as a hair cut

351 CapeCoddah  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:00:04pm

re: #322 galloping granny

I am not talking about denying medical care to the mother or abusive relationships. There are many women out there who use this type of situation as a weapon when things don't go their way. That they would use the life of a child as a weapon, refuse to allow a caring, loving parent who would raise the child willingly, is, in my opinion criminal. I witnessed what was done to our friend. We were very close to the couple I mentioned for several years, and there was absolutely no reason for her to kill that baby, but to get back at him because things did not work out. She never claimed abuse or mistreatment in any way. They just wanted different things. Losing that child destroyed him, and for no good reason. Sorry, but I personally have seen too many women use children as weapons, my mother was one of the biggest offenders. I have never bought the argument that women should have all the say when it comes to unborn children, and I do not apologize for my opinion. Unless it was rape, incest, the life of the mother is in danger, or the father is a proven menace, it takes two to make a baby, and both should have a say in whether that child lives or not, as long as we must have abortion. I think that if the mother is the menace, violent, or unfit otherwise, the father should be allowed to make the decision, just like the mother should if the father is deemed unfit. There should not be a double standard when a child's life hangs in the balance. The child has two parents, and is entitled to both.

352 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:00:04pm

re: #297 WriterMom

Of course not. I find the whole topic incredibly depressing.

As do I. I'm going to tell a quick, true story. Back in '72 I was barely 17. I impregnated my 15 year old girlfriend. Bad. Guess I could have been charged with rape and imprisoned, but I wasn't. Her parents didn't want us to be married. My parents didn't want us to be married. We did have an offer to pay our way to Texas to get a legal abortion, but we did not do so.

So I went to talk to a judge that I knew. He's dead, now, but I'll still not name him. The judge tried sweet reason. You're too young, he pointed out. You've just won a scholarship to college, you'll never be able to go with a family. You'll ruin your life, and ruin this girl's life. I was almost as hard-headed then as now, and being 17 I knew so much more than I do now.

I told the judge that I didn't know anything else but hard work, and I didn't see why I couldn't work full-time and go to college full-time. I pointed out that the world was full of bastards already, and sure didn't need one more. I begged him to let us be married. He said, "Only if you can talk her parents into agreement."

I did the best sales job of my life, and won grudging agreement from her folks. The judge signed the paper, but since I couldn't get my folks to agree, I had to wait until I turned 18.

Three days after my birthday, the girl and I went to a JP and got married. We are still married. Our daughter is 35. A little over a year after she was born my wife developed problems which meant that she had to have a partial hysterectomy, so that is our only child. I did work full-time and go to school full-time. As a matter of fact, I finished in 3 1/2 years.

I have no regrets.

353 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:00:28pm

re: #331 yochanan

males are required to pay child support so to me the whole idea only women get to have a say in the matter doesn't hold water. now the % of say might matter but to say men should have no say doesn't fit with what goes on. Now if you were to take the issue of child support off the table the position of only women having a say might be valid. until then i don't buy it.

Men are only required to pay child support after the woman tracks them down and forces a paternity test down their throat, unless they choose to list themselves as the father.

And they do know pre-coitus that should a child result, child support will follow. If you don't want to pay, then don't play. Very simple.

354 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:01:01pm

re: #305 MandyManners

BHO sure looked purddy last night.

Hat Tip: KilgoreTrout

I have a question.

WHY does obambi lean his head so far over to the right?
He did it the entire hour!

355 The Shadow Do  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:01:15pm

There were 42 executions of cold blooded killers in the US in 2007 and the numbers are falling.

Just sayin'

356 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:01:35pm

re: #347 vxbush

Yes, I realize that, but to me it still reeks that he tried to be flippant and avoid the question by saying it was above his pay grade when he would have more legal knowledge regarding this issue than most people on the street. It was a legal question, and he avoided it.

I think he is trying desperately to not have to directly state that he is pro abortion. Along with all the other things he is hmming, hawing, and waving around smoke and mirrors over.

357 BignJames  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:01:42pm

re: #339 Catttt

If we are talking Rosy Palm and her fab fingers - you'll grow hair on your palm!/

I heard this song for years.....and never really listened to it.

358 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:02:07pm

re: #343 kynna

Totally supportive of gun rights. If you are totally comfortable with him having a gun on his worst day, then go ahead and look into it. But like someone else said....call from a pay/cell phone and ask, or get it in your name.

Not a lawyer, but am concerned with people with depression have guns.

359 RTLM  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:02:47pm

re: #343 kynna

Sorry to go OT, but I've got a question from gun law knowledgeable lizards.

My husband and I have finally decided we'd like to arm up but he's been on Zoloft for many years (he's a completely upstanding citizen with no history of unlawful behavior). We live in CA. I've been googling and I can't find anything really definitive about whether or not one can be denied a permit for taking anti-depressants.

Maybe it's a fluid issue based on each individual. I could really see them trying to grab this opportunity to deny a permit, though. Especially in CA (although so many people here are on meds ...).

You don't need a permit to own a gun in CA. You need a permit for CCA.

360 vxbush  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:03:24pm

re: #356 galloping granny

I think he is trying desperately to not have to directly state that he is pro abortion. Along with all the other things he is hmming, hawing, and waving around smoke and mirrors over.

I think he has shown himself to be all smoke and mirrors.

361 RTLM  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:06:09pm

If he is on Zoloft, he will likely be denied a CCW permit.

362 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:07:16pm

re: #352 razorbacker

Holy cow. What a story. Thanks.

363 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:08:04pm
364 CapeCoddah  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:08:28pm

re: #352 razorbacker
That is a wonderful story, razor, you beat ALL the odds! Congrats!

365 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:10:34pm

re: #362 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

It only happened because a judge let a punk 17 year old boy come into his chambers and talk to him like he was a full-grown man. It humbles me to this day.

I don't think it would happen nowadays. Maybe so, but I have my doubts.

366 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:11:19pm

re: #364 CapeCoddah

I married up.

367 DistantThunder  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:11:49pm

re: #352 razorbacker

As do I. I'm going to tell a quick, true story. Back in '72 I was barely 17. I impregnated my 15 year old girlfriend. Bad. Guess I could have been charged with rape and imprisoned, but I wasn't. Her parents didn't want us to be married. My parents didn't want us to be married. We did have an offer to pay our way to Texas to get a legal abortion, but we did not do so.

So I went to talk to a judge that I knew. He's dead, now, but I'll still not name him. The judge tried sweet reason. You're too young, he pointed out. You've just won a scholarship to college, you'll never be able to go with a family. You'll ruin your life, and ruin this girl's life. I was almost as hard-headed then as now, and being 17 I knew so much more than I do now.

I told the judge that I didn't know anything else but hard work, and I didn't see why I couldn't work full-time and go to college full-time. I pointed out that the world was full of bastards already, and sure didn't need one more. I begged him to let us be married. He said, "Only if you can talk her parents into agreement."

I did the best sales job of my life, and won grudging agreement from her folks. The judge signed the paper, but since I couldn't get my folks to agree, I had to wait until I turned 18.

Three days after my birthday, the girl and I went to a JP and got married. We are still married. Our daughter is 35. A little over a year after she was born my wife developed problems which meant that she had to have a partial hysterectomy, so that is our only child. I did work full-time and go to school full-time. As a matter of fact, I finished in 3 1/2 years.

I have no regrets.

Very inspirational. I was born to teenage parents - my mother said that my 19 year old dad cried at the wedding service - she thinks because he didn't want to get married to her, then 17. His mother wanted me aborted, but it was illegal, so my grandfather the police officer settled the matter when he said to my mother: Welcome to the family. And I was allowed to live.

368 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:12:05pm

re: #352 razorbacker

You're a great American, and stories such as yours deserve much more attention and praise than the crap that we are fed nightly.

369 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:12:33pm

re: #351 CapeCoddah

I am not talking about denying medical care to the mother or abusive relationships. There are many women out there who use this type of situation as a weapon when things don't go their way. That they would use the life of a child as a weapon, refuse to allow a caring, loving parent who would raise the child willingly, is, in my opinion criminal. I witnessed what was done to our friend. We were very close to the couple I mentioned for several years, and there was absolutely no reason for her to kill that baby, but to get back at him because things did not work out. She never claimed abuse or mistreatment in any way. They just wanted different things. Losing that child destroyed him, and for no good reason. Sorry, but I personally have seen too many women use children as weapons, my mother was one of the biggest offenders. I have never bought the argument that women should have all the say when it comes to unborn children, and I do not apologize for my opinion. Unless it was rape, incest, the life of the mother is in danger, or the father is a proven menace, it takes two to make a baby, and both should have a say in whether that child lives or not, as long as we must have abortion. I think that if the mother is the menace, violent, or unfit otherwise, the father should be allowed to make the decision, just like the mother should if the father is deemed unfit. There should not be a double standard when a child's life hangs in the balance. The child has two parents, and is entitled to both.

CapeCoddah, for every horror story, there is one exactly the other way around. No law can consider every eventuality - ever. We can only aim to be as fair as possible to as many people as possible without being grossly unfair to too many of them. And the more regulation we bring to an issue the more and more unfair it becomes. Which is why I am and always have been content to leave the decision in the hands of the individual woman involved.

Are some of them irresponsible and make bad decisions? Sure. But so are some of the people who have babies instead of abortions. We all make bad decisions. And sometimes they are important decisions.

Our courts are crowded beyond all belief -everywhere. People wait a year or more in many places just to get a child support order for a living, breathing child. Our laws specifically do not award legal rights to an unborn child. So allowing a father to make an abortion decision instead of the mother would involve having the mother declared incompetent, a danger to herself and others. That is nearly impossible in most states, absent a long history and very direct threat of harm. And it is not fast.

As I said before I do not care about Obama's views on abortion. This is a question that simply MUST be left to the individual mother to be, because she personally is the one who will answer to her G_d.

The issue is not what Obama believes about abortion. It is what he believes about LIFE. When he refused to vote for the Born Alive law, then he was voting to allow the deliberate, willful murder of living children just like yours. Murder is the issue.

370 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:13:31pm
371 Thanos  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:13:53pm

OT: the Discovery Institute night shift shills have arrived.

372 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:14:28pm

re: #361 RTLM

If he is on Zoloft, he will likely be denied a CCW permit.

No likely about it! In California, you WILL be denied a CCW permit.

Even with a large amount of political grease... Now, .with a large amount of money, that's a no brainer!

373 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:16:07pm

re: #343 kynna

Sorry to go OT, but I've got a question from gun law knowledgeable lizards.

My husband and I have finally decided we'd like to arm up but he's been on Zoloft for many years (he's a completely upstanding citizen with no history of unlawful behavior). We live in CA. I've been googling and I can't find anything really definitive about whether or not one can be denied a permit for taking anti-depressants.

Maybe it's a fluid issue based on each individual. I could really see them trying to grab this opportunity to deny a permit, though. Especially in CA (although so many people here are on meds ...).

Here is the specific code of CA that covers this: [Link: ag.ca.gov...]

I read the pertinent part, and it covers inpatients under psychiatric care who have been judged by their doctors as a danger to self or others and individuals who have been "adjudicated by a court of any state to be a danger to others as a result of a mental disorder or mental illness, or who has been adjudicated to be a mentally disordered sex offender..." Both chapters have outs, wherein people can be judged not dangerous and have a weapons permit.

Not NOT not a lawyer. Just a googler.

374 DistantThunder  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:16:09pm

The human brain is the most complex structure in the universe. All the problems of humanity will eventually be resolved or improved by a human brain. We need more brains working on the world's problems/

375 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:16:37pm

re: #52 zombie

What Obama is saying is this:

If, on the off-chance a fetus survives being aborted, Obama doesn't recommend strangling it to death with a stethoscope or crushing it under the doctor's hiking boot on the operating room floor. Obama, saint that he is, actually supports the outlandish concept of keeping the newborn alive. Fancy that!

Obama actually does not support that. In Illinois, he actively opposed the Illinios version of the Born Alive Infants Protection Act.

As the Chicago Tribune reported on October 4, 2004:

Obama said that had he been in the U.S. Senate two years ago, he would have voted for the Born-Alive Infants Protection Act, even though he voted against a state version of the proposal. The federal version was approved; the state version was not....

The difference between the state and federal versions, Obama explained, was that the state measure lacked the federal language clarifying that the act would not be used to undermine Roe vs. Wade, the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court opinion that legalized abortion.

The article I linked to above states:

The documents prove that in March 2003, state Senator Obama, then the chairman of the IL state Senate Health and Human Services Committee, presided over a committee meeting in which the "neutrality clause" (copied verbatim from the federal bill) was added to the state BAIPA, with Obama voting in support of adding the revision. Yet, immediately afterwards, Obama led the committee Democrats in voting against the amended bill, and it was killed, 6-4..



Ilinios Senate voting record for this

376 witness  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:16:45pm

So where was the anti-Christ stuff they were referring to?

377 Dizzy26  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:17:32pm

re: #374 DistantThunder

The human brain is the most complex structure in the universe. All the problems of humanity will eventually be resolved or improved by a human brain. We need more brains working on the world's problems/

Yep.... And a whole lot less bullshit

378 baxtrice  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:17:40pm

Obama Interview Checklist:
1. incite class war - Check
2. whine about old politics when opponent has bested you - Check
3. blame the other guy - Check
4. claim nuance without taking a real side - Check
5. lie, lie, lie and look sympathetic - Check

Welcome to Socialism, America.

379 DistantThunder  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:17:45pm

Huckabee on Hannity - UGH - slimey - saying that the presidential nominee needs to be likable - what would he know about likable?

380 Catttt  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:18:06pm

re: #357 BignJames

I heard this song for years.....and never really listened to it.

OH! Me neither. LOL! The redheaded backup signer looks like he's having trouble keeping a straight face.

381 Wm T Sherman  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:18:20pm

re: #258 Killian Bundy

I'm sorry, the Constitution DOESN'T HAVE A [EXPLETIVE DELETED] PENUMBRA!

/as a lawyer, that fiction pisses me off to no end

1. Are there are "penumbral rights," though -- i.e., is the term used by lawyers, and explicity related to the Constitution?

2. Has the "fiction" been used in attempts to mislead?

382 CapeCoddah  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:18:30pm

re: #366 razorbacker

I married up.

LOL, Me too! I got married 3 months after I graduated from high school to a man 15 years older than I. I was 18, and we had a LOT of opposition. (I was not pregnant, our first was born 2 years later) Only my dad supported our decision. Every one of the naysayers told us we had no chance, and a couple had very disparaging opinions of my husband, for getting involved with a younger woman. (I met him a week after I turned 18) Almost 23 years later, every one who gave us a hard time is divorced. We have had a few chuckles over the years about all those who had "correct" marriages. I love the man more every day, and have never regretted one minute of our life together.

383 David Simon  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:19:37pm

re: #352 razorbacker

Good for you. Back then, even if your wife had aborted, she still would have been considered a modern-day Hester Prynne. You not only saved your daughter, you saved your wife.

384 ContraJihadi  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:20:13pm

re: #322 galloping granny

I am the mother of four and the grandmother of more. Some men make wonderful fathers, others do not. When push comes to shove - particularly if the parties involved are not married, it is the woman who will care for the child, raise the child and support the child. It is the woman who risks her life to birth the child. And it is the particular woman involved who knows her particular situation. Who are you to judge your sister who might be escaping an abusive relationship? Or clog our courts because Mom to be wants chemo and daddy wants the baby. Or any of a hundred other scenarios. Who are you to judge at all? Are YOU going to stand in your sister's place before the Throne of God and take her judgement, since you made her choice?

Sad though it is, men need to learn to be more careful about where they deposit their sperm if they want a say in what happens later.

If human life begins at conception and killing it is murder, it is a crime regardless of whether it is a woman or a man who recognizes it as such. Being a woman does not excuse a person from committing a crime.

If killing a fetus is not a crime, it is not a woman's word that exculpates it. The natural fact that a woman bears a child does not provide any special moral sanction, especially given the fact that no woman "creates" a child parthenogenetically.

The argument that only a woman is qualified to judge the legality of abortion is an argument from affect and a vehement posture of gender partisanship, not from reason. A society is made of all its members, and in the United States every citizen is equal under the law.

On the moral level, we make judgments because we are human beings, not because of our gender. If a woman commits a robbery, I am certainly qualified to judge its turpitude. If I fail to exercise my judgment, and if half the adult population should fail in similar situation, soon the society will decay and no person's property will be safe.

Moreover, whatever might happen before the Throne of God is not a legally relevant issue. Clogged or not, courts exist to adjudicate the law, not to guess at people's circumstances or motives except as they may aggravate or mitigate the crime.

While it is certainly true that men need to be not only more careful but more responsible about where they deposit their sperm, men collectively do not lose their faculty of apprising moral action because some act immorally. If that were the case, no person, man or woman, could make any moral judgment at all, and chaos would ensue. The answer is not to forbid men generally from judging the legality of abortion, but to see that those men who do impregnate women are held legally responsible for their actions.

385 dammad  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:20:34pm

Ha ha - here is the clip from Obama discussing his daughter being "punished" by having a baby.......

386 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:21:45pm

re: #368 tradewind

Thank you. I appreciate that more than you know.

re: #370 buzzsawmonkey

No, I'm as common as dirt clods in Arkansas County. It was a different time, and I wasn't nuanced enough to know that we were only talking about a tissue mass. I thought we were discussing my baby. I'm the oldest of six, I'd been around babies a lot. I like them. They're cute, and can potentially become good people. Most just need a bit of training, and a bit of loving.

We never felt like we had been burdened. We never felt like we had been blessed. We just went ahead and did our best with what we had.

But you know what? Babies making babies ain't such a good idea. Oughta be discouraged.

387 CapeCoddah  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:22:57pm

re: #369 galloping granny

Agreed Granny, I just detest the double standard dads face, it is not fair in most cases. Sorry for the long winded arguments, it is a big sore spot with me.

388 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:23:26pm

re: #179 buzzsawmonkey

Wait, she has?
I thought that the Obamas were very upset that a commentator on Fox had jokingly used that term for him related to her.

389 Taqyia2Me  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:24:06pm

HRC nomination anybody?

BHO HAS dropped that ball that badly here.......

390 Maui Girl  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:24:21pm

re: #256 galloping granny

I don't care if it is only one child per year nationwide. Even one is one too many. Setting a child born alive aside to die because it was supposed to be aborted is murder - plain and simple. Unequivocal. Murder.

Amen! And that's the point isn't it? If one doesn't matter, no number, how great, should matter. Our humanity is losing itself.

391 razorbacker  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:24:49pm

re: #382 CapeCoddah

Of everyone I know from HS, my wife and I and one other couple (our best friends, for what it's worth) are the only ones still married to the original spouses.

Now I haven't kept up with them all, and someone else surely has managed to do it. But darn few.

392 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:24:51pm

re: #386 razorbacker

We never felt like we had been blessed.

I think you were. Especially speaking as someone who cannot have them at all. You ARE blessed.

393 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:25:09pm
394 Crimsonfisted  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:25:23pm

re: #389 Taqyia2Me

HRC nomination anybody?

BHO HAS dropped that ball that badly here.......

I am thinking that too.

395 RTLM  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:26:19pm

re: #379 DistantThunder

Huckabee on Hannity - UGH - slimey - saying that the presidential nominee needs to be likable - what would he know about likable?

Sean Hannity has some real shithead friends. Beckel, Buchanan, Corsi to name three.

396 David Simon  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:26:19pm

re: #369 galloping granny

Which is why I am and always have been content to leave the decision in the hands of the individual woman involved.

Are some of them irresponsible and make bad decisions? Sure. But so are some of the people who have babies instead of abortions.

What? How about adoption?

397 galloping granny  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:26:46pm

re: #384 ContraJihadi

If human life begins at conception and killing it is murder, it is a crime regardless of whether it is a woman or a man who recognizes it as such. Being a woman does not excuse a person from committing a crime.

Abortion is a medical procedure. Even married women, absent a court order, have full say over any and all medical procedures they undergo. If you would like to change that, good luck. I think you will find American women very unwilling to go back to the old patriarchal status under which they did not own their own bodies.

398 CapeCoddah  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:28:32pm

re: #391 razorbacker

We hit the lottery, razor, not many are that lucky these days. I thank god every day for my marriage.

399 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:28:49pm

re: #389 Taqyia2Me

Bill Richardson said this morning on some talk show that after her name was placed, she was going to direct all her delegates to throw their support to The One. He said it had 'all been worked out'.
Phooey, I wanted a fight.

400 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:29:28pm

re: #352 razorbacker
I'd give you a thousand updings if I could. God bless you, the missus and the daughter.

401 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:31:49pm
402 tradewind  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:32:34pm

re: #401 ploome hineni

Never has a goatee looked more ridiculous.
And that's saying a lot.

403 David Simon  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:32:46pm

re: #386 razorbacker

But you know what? Babies making babies ain't such a good idea. Oughta be discouraged.

Amen, brother. It should be discouraged. End the incentive (read: welfare) for irresponsible people to procreate.

404 Perplexed  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:33:13pm

Ah, yes, the Obomanation of Desolation speaks again. Too bad it is so easy to fact check him seven ways from Sunday. He's lying. Around a month ago I heard Laura Ingram (I believe it was her)talk about this. Obami voted against every bill that dealt with this.

405 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 17, 2008 6:33:39pm