How is it that all of these newspaper reporters are faster on the scene than local bloggers or private citizens?
I was really looking forward to seeing the media supplanted, but in a war, they shine.
Even BBC has shined in Georgia coverage.

Nothing that some JDAMs or CBUs couldn't fix.

When will people learn you can't trust commies to keep their word?

re: #3 Sharmuta

When will people learn you can't trust commies to keep their word?

You mean like Obama?

The Russian military deployed several SS-21 missile launchers and supply vehicles to South Ossetia on Friday

Hello Europe?

Can you hear those chains rattling?

re: #1 mean Gene

How is it that all of these newspaper reporters are faster on the scene than local bloggers or private citizens?
I was really looking forward to seeing the media supplanted, but in a war, they shine.
Even BBC has shined in Georgia coverage.

The Russians have been waging a DDOS cyber-war against Georgia for a couple of weeks (before they invaded), so local bloggers can't get any reports out.

re: #4 Ward Cleaver

You mean like Obama?

Keeping his word is above his pay grade.

South Ossetia is now part of Russia, get used to it. Maybe they'll give the rest of Georgia back if they feel like it.

/payback for Kosovo independence, it is what it is

relax World, it's just the Sudenland

re: #7 Sharmuta

Keeping his word is above his pay grade.

Keeping his word is above Obama's gay parade!

Charles, from your link : Not only are the Russians putting short range ballistic missiles into Georgia, but anti-aircraft missiles as well and "Concerns over the military tensions in the region may already have influenced some neighbors. American officials said Turkish officials had denied the United States’ request that an American Navy hospital ship, the Comfort, be allowed to travel through the Turkish straits en route to Georgia".[emphasis added, realwest].
And, although I know I'm sounding like a broken record, when is President Bush going to decide to stand by our allies or not? If we aren't going to actually DO SOMETHING in or over Georgia, we ought to shut up about the situation, because it's only embarrassing the United States to simply Jaw-Jaw, not War-War.

'Cease-fire' yeah right.

"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means"

- Inigo Montoya

re: #9 Boolz

relax World, it's just the Sudenland

/relax and enjoy it because all the Western proclamations aren't going to get it back

Russia.

-Spit.

re: #3 Sharmuta

When will people learn you can't trust commies to keep their word?

Something about "any means to an end". I remember reading it somewhere...

as far as why did the established media beat the bloggers to the punch in the Sudentland, I mean Georgia...I mean South Ossetia...I mean a former republic of the USSR? They can still afford good airline tickets

Spiny, that tells you just how easy it will be when anyone wants to shut up the web here, there or anywhere, doesn't it.

I imagine if Georgia complains, Sarkozy will just tell them to follow Russia's orders. You'd think it would strike more people as just a little strange that the aggressor would be allowed to dictate the terms of cease fire and then blatantly violate said terms... and the EU and the rest of the world don't seem to have a problem with it.

Brinksmanship.

No G-8, no WTO - with F-22s and Patriot batteries in the appropriate areas. And missile defense all over new Europe.

Putin's eyes are bigger than his stomach.

re: #1 mean Gene

Well this article says there aren't many reporters there? Georgia conflict: How the UK's news media scrambled to catch up

And I think this might be the official propaganda site for South Ossetia

Putin is the new Tsar. Plz bring back Pres. Reagan

re: #3 Sharmuta

never

re: #3 Sharmuta

When will people learn you can't trust commies to keep their word?

OT

Want to thank you...So much, (for 'enticing' me with "It's easy" and stuff like that, to explore linking and stuff:-)

So, I tried it, it was easy...not sure anyone here is going to thank you for 'arming' the mouth.

Pretty soon I'll be comfortable enough to really start pasting, linking, sharing, posting...

well, you get the picture.

Thanks again! You're my kinda lizard

re: #5 Maximu§

The Russian military deployed several SS-21 missile launchers and supply vehicles to South Ossetia on Friday

Hello Europe?

Can you hear those chains rattling?

Europe is chained by Russian gas and oil. It's toothless again

Drill here. Drill now!

Note the direction of oil futures now that the US is merely DISCUSSING possible drilling.

The dollar too.

re: #24 winston06

Again?

re: #19 RTLM
I wish I could agree with you about "Brinksmanship" but I can't. Brinksmanship requires that SOMEONE face up to Russia and the U.S. is clearly not going to do it.
And, given how much oil and, more importantly, natural gas Russia exports to Europe, don't look for ANY European or NATO involement, either.
When, as I posted above, our ally Turkey denies access to a U.S. Naval Hospital Ship to get to Georgia, and we resort to, as the article states, "delicate negotians" with Turkey, I don't think there's any brinksmanship possible.

They are protecting the oppressed citizens of Georgia with the latest ballistic missiles! Nothing is too good for the citizens of Ossetia. Pay attention, Reuters, National Public Radio, CNN, and the BBC; This! This, is how you stop oppression! I bet they are getting a warm fuzzy feeling just knowing that the Russians are "protecting" them!

...and of course, all the countries on Mother Russias' borders are lining up for the American Defensive Missile Shield, lest they, too, become "protected.

the dollar and oil are linked...the more we buy foreign oil, the weaker the dollar gets...the weaker the dollar gets, the more it costs to buy foreign oil. Turn it around...the less we buy foreign oil, the stronger the dollar gets...the stronger the dollar gets, the less it costs to buy foreign oil...go figure

Note that it is France, which gets about 3/4 of its electricity from nuclear plants, that has shown a hint of spine.

With events like these, the smart people of the world will come to realize that they need the good old U.S.A. to stick around for a little while, to keep them safe from the real evils in the world. I can assure you you will soon hear pro American rhetoric bubbling out of Europe soon.

US President George W. Bush said Saturday that the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia must remain part of Georgia.

/faerie talk in contradiction with ground truth

re: #28 realwest

I wish I could agree with you about "Brinksmanship" but I can't. Brinksmanship requires that SOMEONE face up to Russia and the U.S. is clearly not going to do it.
And, given how much oil and, more importantly, natural gas Russia exports to Europe, don't look for ANY European or NATO involement, either.
When, as I posted above, our ally Turkey denies access to a U.S. Naval Hospital Ship to get to Georgia, and we resort to, as the article states, "delicate negotians" with Turkey, I don't think there's any brinksmanship possible.

You and Killian can keep telling yourselves that. But this new Russian folly is another Afghanistan. Probably worse.

(for them)

russians...lyin', cheatin', neanderthal mo' fo's

...but the left loves 'em.

Vote accordingly.

This is interesting. Because South Ossetia only has 20,000 people and no resources. But it is good military country.

re: #34 RTLM

perhaps...but are the Georgians as committed, as ruthless, as bloodthirsty as the Afgans? Only time will tell

I knew this "cease-fire" was nothing but hudna. Bastards!

Anyone else seeing parallels between this and Israel/Palestine?

re: #28 realwest

/ ', our ally Turkey denies access to a U.S. Naval Hospital Ship to get to Georgia, and we resort to, as the article states, "delicate negotians" with Turkey, I don't think there's any brinksmanship possible'.

I'm so afraid you're right on the money. Damn I'm praying we get the stones & cooperation and the political guts will to start pushing back somehow. ANYway short of suicide.

re: #36 pat

LA Times says 70,000 people?

Russia have one supply line into Georgia - over the Caucasus. It will be shut by October. Russia's air force was smacked good as well. They even managed to bomb their own Frogfoot factory.

They will no be able to hold any ground they have taken in Georgia.

re: #37 Boolz

perhaps...but are the Georgians as committed, as ruthless, as bloodthirsty as the Afgans? Only time will tell

Yes.

SS-21 Scarabs.

Not good, those things can carry 100kt of death upwards of 180 kilometers or a 480 kilogram conventional warhead, with a CEP less than 100 meters.

Not good indeed.

They used them in Chechnya.

Not good.

If they are nuclear armed, their annexation of Georgia is damn near a done deal...

re: #42 RTLM

Georgian army is not that strong to oppose Russia. ((Unless the US arms them))

Maybe someone should poll the citizens of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

/they haven't wanted to be part of Georgia for years

re: #45 winston06

Georgian army is not that strong to oppose Russia. ((Unless the US arms them))

eggsactly.

Russia says extra security needed for withdrawal

By Oleg Shchedrov and Matt Robinson Sat Aug 16, 10:31 AM ET

SOCHI/TBILISI (Reuters) - Russia defied U.S. demands for an immediate pullout of its troops from Georgia on Saturday, saying extra security arrangements needed to be put in place before a withdrawal could begin.

Now it would appear these missiles are the "security arrangements" the Russians spoke of.

re: #32 Tarkus289
I wish I could beleive you my friend, but sadly, I think you're mistaken. When Bush first announced that the US Air Force and US Navy would be providing humanitarian support, there was an incredible amount of handwringing in Europe, lest the US piss off the Russians and the Russian "punish" Europe, if the U.S. dared to smuggle in arms like anti-tank missles and Stinger anti-aircraft missles to the Georgians. Indeed, when the US flew home the 2,000 Georgian troops who had fought alongside us in Iraq, Russia said "that's not nice" and Europe (excepting Poland and the Czech Republic) BLAMED the US for flying our allies home to Georgia.
Indeed, when it was proposed that the US might take stronger action, militarily, in Georgia, Europe was crazed with fear for the coming winter without Russian oil and natural gas.
There is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that whatever Russia decides to do in Georgia it will do and neither the US nor Europe will do anything about it.

I posted this on a previous thread but thought it was worth re-posting on this one.

"...there was a man that saw all this coming 60 odd years ago."

PATTON HAD IT RIGHT

re: #38 Sharmuta

I knew this "cease-fire" was nothing but hudna. Bastards!

No ones currently shooting.

/so relax

re: #33 Killian Bundy

US President George W. Bush said Saturday that the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia must remain part of Georgia.

/faerie talk in contradiction with ground truth

Claims of the existence of Georgia as an independent country is in contradiction with ground truth.

Many more facts on Georgia paid for by our taxes, compiled by the CIA.

re: #46 Killian Bundy

Maybe someone should poll the citizens of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

/they haven't wanted to be part of Georgia for years

I'll grant you that, but Russia leaves first. It will not happen under these terms today.

re: #46 Killian Bundy

but who do you trust to do the polling? According to a recent Pravda poll, 352% of all Ossetians, as well as 185% of all Georgians, as well as 62% of all Americans (at least in San Fransisco) would like to be a part of the Soviet...I mean Russian...I mean Putins Playpen, Empire

re: #28 realwest

Good evening/morning/whatevertheeffitis, realwest!

How's your tooth?

It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it.
It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine. -- R.E.M.

re: #46 Killian Bundy

Maybe someone should poll the citizens of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

/they haven't wanted to be part of Georgia for years

They've been Russian gangster fiefdoms for years, too.

re: #34 RTLM I didn't see Killian's post when I was writing my comment to you; but it is spot on. Oh sure, this MAY turn into Russia's Afghanistan, but I doubt it. The US - and hence the rest of the World - won't do a damn thing about what's going on in Georgia and, most importantly, Russia knows that and so do the Georgians.

re: #49 realwest

then play nice til Spring

re: #52 Spiny Norman

Claims of the existence of Georgia as an independent country is in contradiction with ground truth.

/and good luck getting it back

re: #60 Killian Bundy

/and good luck getting it back

You seem to be happy about this. Why?

re: #57 Spiny Norman

They've been Russian gangster fiefdoms for years, too.

/so why do we care?

Unless we can miracle something, Georgia is Russian territory.

re: #41 slokat

Yes, that is the official estimate. But the Georgians left years agi when the Russian "peace keepers " moved in. Seems like they did not appreciate drunken theirves and rapists. BTW, most of the Ossetians moved to North Ossetia for the same reason.

re: #61 Spiny Norman

You seem to be happy about this. Why?

/not happy, just pragmatic, it's not Darfur

re: #49 realwest

I agree with you, but this crap will be the last gasp of the Euro-left, when the smart people realize that WE are the good guys, they will come begging, as they always do.

You remember the joke... France is always there, when they need us.

Well, it's been a gas blast..

You've all been mavaless.. but it's almost midnight and manana is almost
here.
ta ta

re: #65 Killian Bundy

/not happy, just pragmatic, it's not Darfur

How many of the now-independent (and pro-American) former Soviet vassals have to be re-invaded before we care? Israel is just a tiny little country, too, so why should we care about them? They're the only country in the Middle East with NO OIL, fercryinoutloud. Let's be pragmatic here...

Look at this lovely (/sarc) cartoon today from our resident Pew-litzer prize winning moonbat cartoonist Steve Benson in the Arizona Repugnant.

re: #28 realwest

We saw a harbinger of this with the Russian embargo against Lithuania.

"The goal was to force Lithuania to reconsider the sale," said Tomas Janeliunas, deputy director of the Center for Strategic Studies in Vilnius, the capital of Lithuania. "They wanted a Russian company to buy the refinery, but for cheaper than a market price."

Lithuania's brush with Kremlin oil politics, critics of Russian business practices say, is a case study of what the U.S. vice president, Dick Cheney, called Moscow's use of energy exports as "tools for intimidation and blackmail" with the neighbors it once controlled under the Soviet Union.

That characterization angered Russian officials, who say they are simply being discriminated against in the business world.

So long as force intimidation and compulsion work for the Russians, they will have little need or desire to change their ways.

A little Rhineland here, a little Sudetenland there, who gives a rip?

re: #58 realwest

I didn't see Killian's post when I was writing my comment to you; but it is spot on. Oh sure, this MAY turn into Russia's Afghanistan, but I doubt it. The US - and hence the rest of the World - won't do a damn thing about what's going on in Georgia and, most importantly, Russia knows that and so do the Georgians.

I think you're both wrong and I don't like the defeatism.

re: #71 Spiny Norman

A little Rhineland here, a little Sudetenland there, who gives a rip?

It is always acceptable as long as it is happening to other people.

re: #73 kuffar

It is always acceptable as long as it is happening to other people.

To some people, apparently so.

re: #56 Temujin No, I'm afraid that there is NOTHING that Russia fears will happen to them either in or because of Georgia.

While some lizards do not think Georgian independence is worth the US getting into a shooting war with Russia, I disagreed, but was clearly in the minority.
When another lizard carefully calculated the distance from either one of two Naval Aircraft Carrier Battle groups (NOT from within the Black Sea) and showed that the F-16 Superhornets were in easy range of Georgia and I responded that F-22 Raptors could easily be in range of Georgia, several days ago, Bush forgot that Georgia was a free, democratic republic nation, including the two "breakway" provinces invovled, recognized as such by the United Nations, and Bush forgot he is, in addition to POTUS, the Leader of the Free World.
And we all witnessed the failure of will of the leader of the Free World.
Oh, yeah, everyone said "Polands going ahead with it's ABM treaty with the US and the Ukraine wants immediate entry into NATO"; the Russian's said NO to that and suddenly, the support needed from Germany and from France for that speedy admittance to NATO dried up in nothing flat. And now, as per Charles link, Turkey won't even allow a US Navy hospital ship get through to Georgia.

Europeans are too used to the United States taking on the role of military protector of Europe and couldn't bring themselves to really get after Russia or to support Bush.
And words notwithstanding, Bush did not support Georia and he isn't going to either.

re: #44 Kuffar

SS-21 Scarabs Excepts:

The SS-21 A TEL vehicle is amphibious with the ability to drive 60 km/h (37 mph) on road and 8 km/h (5 mph) in water. It has the capacity of driving over rough terrain and carries a crew of three. It has Nuclear, Biological and Chemical (NBC) filter systems enabling it to operate in areas where Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) have been deployed. This is important, due to the threat of non-conventional warfare on the modern battlefield.

Unconfirmed reports claim the existence of a second upgrade, the SS-21 ‘Scarab C’. This missile would have an increased range of 185 km (115 miles) and would fit two missiles to a TEL vehicle. These reports could possibly be referring to the reload vehicle for the SS-21 A/B or the next generation tactical ballistic missile, the SS-X-26.

We have a lot of powerful cards against Russia. Number One would be our own oil resources. Reduce the ppb of oil, and you do a good hurt to Russia.

Maybe we could sell oil and gas to Europe.

My link to the CIA above got changed by the auto formatting rules - the web address starts with 'h t t p s:' but the system keeps deleting the 's'.

(even when I just type it alone, hence the spaces above)

So if anyone is interested in the fact page try www.cia.gov
click 'world fact book' - use the select country menu to go to 'Georgia'

re: #65 Killian Bundy
You are, obviously correct: this is not Darfur. It is simply an ally of the United States, which is a democratically elected Repubic, who sent in 2,000 troops to fight side-by-side with us in Iraq.
So what's the big deal?
Everyone knows we'll go to a shooting war with Russia over the Ukraine, right? Or Poland, right?

Our NOT supporting our ally Georgia was both stategically and tactically a mistake. Period. Russia wins that round and the US loses it. And, I'm genuinley concerned that the US will continue to lose it.
Trust me on this Killian, NATO doesn't really exist. Oh yeah, GB and Canada and the Danes are still with us, but they look to us for leadership and we simply haven't provided any.

re: #69 Colonel Panik
Maybe we should smack the Russian Bear on the snout with a rolled up copy of the U.N. Resoltuion ]which AUTHORIZED the Unites States and the coalition to invade Iraq.

re: #68 Spiny Norman

How many of the now-independent (and pro-American) former Soviet vassals have to be re-invaded before we care? Israel is just a tiny little country, too, so why should we care about them? They're the only country in the Middle East with NO OIL, fercryinoutloud. Let's be pragmatic here...

Israel is not a former Soviet vassal that wants to be part of Russia.

/Kosovo Independence Day in Pristina. those aren't Kosovar flags

re: #77 RTLM
GASP! You mean DRILL NOW?! Uh, not if the Dem Congress has it's way we won't.

re: #72 RTLM I'm not a defeastist - read my posts more carefully, Sir.And use your pejoratives on those who deserve them.

re: #71 Spiny Norman

A little Rhineland here, a little Sudetenland there, who gives a rip?

Okay, let's retaliate heavy, really [expletive deleted] the Russians up on their own border.

/oh wait, we don't have the land corridor necessary for heavy armor divisions

Well it's been interesting as usual all y'all but I gotta get to sleep NOW.
I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you down the road.

Goodnight, all.

Russians.

A horde of drink sodden barbarians that occasionally puke up a genius.

re: #83 realwest

I'm not a defeastist - read my posts more carefully, Sir.And use your pejoratives on those who deserve them.

You're using reverse psychology?

They pretty much got us with our pants down, capitalizing on lame duck time and an over-extended military with a traitorous congress and a spineless Europe...

It didn't take a Genius, just someone who didn't have fragging blinders on.

re: #51 Killian Bundy

No ones currently shooting.

/so relax

So that makes it just fine and dandy, right?

re: #69 Colonel Panik

Look at this lovely (/sarc) cartoon today from our resident Pew-litzer prize winning moonbat cartoonist Steve Benson in the Arizona Repugnant.

The utter stupidity of the left (and some on the right) never ceases to amaze me.

re: #88 kuffar

It didn't take a Genius, just someone who didn't have fragging blinders on.

Blinders? More like idiots that wouldn't listen.

/U.S. officials say they warned Georgia to avoid fight

re: #91 Killian Bundy

Blinders? More like idiots that wouldn't listen.

/U.S. officials say they warned Georgia to avoid fight

Russian invasion planned in April

"A decision was made for the war to start in August. The war would have happened regardless of what the Georgians did. Whether they responded to the provocations or not, there would have been an invasion of Georgia,"

re: #89 Wendya

So that makes it just fine and dandy, right?

It's a good start.

/what's your alternative?

Rice has been a disaster in the State Department, granted that department is a disaster by itself...

re: #92 RTLM

/and your finger's on the switch, what?

re: #95 Killian Bundy

/and your finger's on the switch, what?

Killian,
Blatant Russian aggression will be repelled. If you urn your back on your friends, you won't have friends anymore.

(China is watching)

re: #96 RTLM

Killian,
Blatant Russian aggression will be repelled. If you urn your back on your friends, you won't have friends anymore.

(China is watching)

/there's a finite limit to our ass kicking ability and we're flirting with it

This crisis may very well be the death of the UN...

IIRC every one was impatient just prior to operation Enduring Freedom. President Bush has said that the Georgia airlift will be "Sustained and on going".

Similar language before Afghanistan.

This Georgia issue is long term. And not just Georgia.

The EUros need to invest some $Billions in military equipment and people training.

Now.

re: #98 kuffar

This crisis may very well be the death of the UN...

Every cloud has a silver lining.

This nod and smile and ignore any kind of peace or diplomatic action seems to be working fabulously for Russia. It hasn't seemed to slow them down a bit. I suppose having to appear as if they've conceded is a minor irritation, but saying one thing and doing another is, like, totally worth it.

re: #44 Kuffar

SS-21 Scarabs.

Not good, those things can carry 100kt of death upwards of 180 kilometers or a 480 kilogram conventional warhead, with a CEP less than 100 meters.

Not good indeed.

They used them in Chechnya.

Not good.

If they are nuclear armed, their annexation of Georgia is damn near a done deal...

What do they plan to aim them at?

This is becoming a puppet show.

Did anyone watch the talking heads Sunday morning? I watched Gates on ABC. Good man. I saw Condi was on the other shows. I neither watched nor DVRd. I can't believe any significant number of people in Russia support this foolishness.

It's more then missiles:

North Caucus Weekly
August 15, 2008—Volume IX, Issue 32
Jamestown Foundation
[Link: www.jamestownfoundation.com...]

Wanted Chechen Commander Leads his Battalion against Georgian Forces

Kavkazky Uzel reported on August 13 that members of the Chechen-manned Vostok battalion of the Russian Defense Ministry’s Main Intelligence Directorate (GRU) were among the Russian forces that invaded Georgia. According to the website, the Vostok fighters were located in area of the Georgian town of Gori along with Sulim Yamadaev, the Vostok battalion commander. Yamadaev, who became a target of Chechen President Ramzan Kadyrov’s wrath following a confrontation and apparent shootout last April involving Vostok members and security forces loyal to Kadyrov, was put on Russia’s federal wanted list earlier this month (North Caucasus Weekly, August 7; see Mairbek Vatchagaev’s article below).

Kavkazky Uzel quoted a correspondent for the Gazeta.ru website as saying that he had been told by several Russian servicemen that Yamadaev and the Vostok battalion were deployed in the “conflict zone” in South Ossetia. Meanwhile, GZT.ru, the website of the newspaper Gazeta, reported on August 12 that the Vostok battalion was located near Gori and that Yamadaev had led it in an assault on the Georgian village of Kvemo-Nikozi, during which at least two Vostok fighters were wounded.

As Kavkazky Uzel noted, Sulim Yamadaev is wanted in connection with the February 1998 kidnapping and subsequent murder of Usman Batsaev, a 32-year-old businessman from the Gudermes district village of Dzhalka (North Caucasus Weekly, August 7). According to the website, on August 11, a local television channel in Chechnya broadcast a bulletin headlined “Attention: Wanted”, in which photographs of Sulim Yamadaev and his brother Badruddi were shown and the voice-over stated that Badruddi Yamadaev, a resident of the city of Gudermes, was wanted for violating articles 105 and 167 of Russia’s Criminal Code (concerning murder and willful destruction or damage of property, respectively). The advertisement then gave a telephone number that viewers could call with information about Badruddi Yamadaev’s whereabouts and said callers would be guaranteed anonymity. There was no indication whether the bulletin, besides showing a photograph of Sulim Yamadaev, referred to his alleged crimes.

According to Kavkazky Uzel, on August 10, just a day before the bulletin showing photographs of Sulim and Badruddi Yamadaev and announcing that Badruddi was wanted for murder and destruction of property was broadcast on Chechen television, various Russian media had reported that Sulim Yamadaev and members of the Vostok battalion were in the “Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone” and fulfilling “tasks” as part of the Russian “peacekeeping contingent” there. That information was reportedly confirmed by Isa Yamadaev, the commander of one of the Vostok battalion’s companies, at the battalion’s base in Gudermes. Isa Yamadaev was reportedly preparing to go to South Ossetia together with 100 fighters.

Kavkazky Uzel on August 14 also quoted an unnamed Vostok serviceman as saying that the battalion had incurred “serious losses” in fighting around the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali. “I cannot say how many of us were there or the exact number killed, but I will say this: Three days ago the bodies of six of our guys who died in the conflict zone were taken back to Chechnya. In our group only half survived. A commander was also killed. Many were wounded. If reinforcements hadn’t arrived in time, the Georgians would have destroyed all of us.”

Sorry for the long post - but I could not get a link to work to the article. Now I figured it out:

http://www.jamestown.org/chechnya_weekly/article.p hp?articleid=2374375

They changed the name from chechnya_weekly to north_caucus_weekly

Also: [Link: www.jamestown.org...]

The Jamestown guys are a good source - but remember to understand their POV.

Hmmm, that's interesting.

So now we have confirmation that Russia IS installing ballistic missiles in Ossetia. The SS-21 Scarab can be fitted with the AA60 tactical nuclear warhead.

Yet when I reported this on my blog last week, a few on this blog claimed it was impossible, and Russians would never do anything so stupid, and accused me of being irresponsible in relying on my source. I say again: You cannot go broke overestimating the Kremlin's capacity for self-destruction and irrationality. The shoe incidident ought to have resolved that question for all time.

Seems like I'm owed an apology, no?

Meanwhile, if we had taken more resolute action sooner, we might have interfered with the missile placement. Now they are entrenched and our leverage is reduced.

re: #104 de La Valette

StevieRay posted a photo series in the spin-off links Aug. 14 , Photos of the Russo-Georgia War, and examining them you can see some of the Russian armored personal carriers have "BOCTOK" (Cyrillic for Vostok) spray painted on their sides. The infantry riding on them appear to be uniformed incompletely compared to regular Russian troops, so I think your post might have some photographic support here, these appear to be the very Chechen troops it writes about. A lot of them don't appear to be Slavs either. I'd hate to be civilians around this bunch.

Looking at that series of photos, it appears most of them were in the vicinity of Tskhinvili, and the destroyed Georgian armor , turrets blown off and burnt out, were probably hit by air, not Russian tanks, although it's hard to be sure , but I couldn't see any sign they were hit by anti-tank rounds. I think this might mean they were caught by surprise in the very early hours of the war before they knew air-power was going to be used against them. Just guessing, it looks like the Georgians successfully extracted the bulk of their troops and assets out of the "bag", at least the Russians haven't been able to show off any large numbers of POWs. I would imagine any of our advisers would have recommended drawing the Russian supply lines out, not going head to head with them close to the border where they didn't have much protection against air attacks. I'm just speculating on all this but it appears the Georgians have preserved the bulk of their forces, and the deeper the Russians penetrate, the more vulnerable their supply lines are, always a weak spot with them. Previously Russian Combat Logistics, Grozny they've had a lot of trouble with this. Russian air power I see as the most dangerous threat opponent to Georgian forces, the troops they've brought in appear to be not anywhere near first-rate, with a lot of these paramilitary types which would be a terror to civilians, but could still end up getting smacked around by the Georgian troops as they outrun their supplies. I don't think we've seen the end of this yet.

"perhaps...but are the Georgians as committed, as ruthless, as bloodthirsty as the Afgans? Only time will tell"

Ever hear of a fellow by the name of Joseph "Uncle Joe" Dushgavilli?

As for whoever memtioned the ABM deployment to Poland, that agreement has been signed, and we've agreed to deploy Patriot PAC-3s to protect Poland from SRBMs and aircraft. The Uke's shot at joining NATO comes in December.

Ivan played his hand too soon. Europe now has time to make other arrangements for this winter's natural gas needs, and every nation with Sudeten Russians is on alert.

Why, good heavens. Where on earth would the Russians get the idea that they could dawdle in pulling out of Russia in defiance of the international community?

Meanwhile, Russian lawmaker Konstantin Kosachev, head of the parliament's foreign affairs committee, said Moscow would completely withdraw only when it was "assured that Georgians would not continue to use military force" in the breakaway regions of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.

Russian troops will leave "sooner or later," Kosachev said, saying the timetable depends "definitely on how Georgians will continue to behave."

"If I would ask you in response to the same question how fast the American forces can leave Iraq, for example, the answer would be as soon as we have guarantees for peace and security there," Kosachev said. "The same answer would be toward this situation."

Having missilles targeting Georgians rulers is perhaps a better levarage for them to get hold on that gas pipe passing thru the Georgia, that they are after, while avoiding bad press minimizing their own losses and coleteral damages. Nothing new here: gimmy your wallet or I'll beat you up. Not particular different from what IRS, but not DoD are doing. I would rother have it in in reverse and let iraqis pay my taxes, or at least make them pay to those foks who have served there.

re: #110 Irving

yeah all those georgians exploding themselves in markets and police stations need to be stopped.

/sarc

really, there is no way to compare the two.

Well, admittedly, Georgia actually attacked Russia, unlike Iraq. So I can see how it might be hard to spot the analogy.

And why bother with suicide bombers when you have military hardware?

August 2, CNN -- Six people were killed and 13 wounded in the shelling of South Ossetia by Georgian forces, South Ossetian officials said Saturday, according to Russia's Interfax news agency.

Officials of the breakaway Georgian region said the shelling was part of a Georgian military operation, Interfax reported.

Here's the link if you need it.

As long as the U.S. is in Iraq, it has no moral authority to deal with situations like this.

georgia didnt attack russia.

Not Russian soil, no. But South Ossetia was an breakaway republic that Russia was protecting. A bit muddled, I grant you. Still, the one basic truth in all this is that Georgia started shooting first.

If they are moving SS-21 missiles that implies they will be based at an APRTB which means the Russians plan on establishing a permanent Army HQ in the area.

But I thought Russia was leaving? (sarc)

re: #113 Irving

Well, admittedly, Georgia actually attacked Russia, unlike Iraq. So I can see how it might be hard to spot the analogy... As long as the U.S. is in Iraq, it has no moral authority to deal with situations like this.

I gotta ask: did you sleep through your history lessons? The Georgians attacked a breakaway province of Georgia, not Russia, that the Russians had invaded (that's the term used when the belligerent armed forces of one nation cross a border into another country without permission) under the pretext of "protecting Russian citizens". Shouldn't the fact that the "citizens" in question only got their Russian passports after the invasion give you a bit of a clue as to who was the aggressor? Sadly, as we have seen in the Darfur and other internal (civil) war areas, the Georgians have every right to mobilize their own army within their borders - whereas the Russians have no such right and are in fact illegally occupying part of a sovereign nation.

As to your ignorant comment regarding the US presence in Iraq, please go back to Kos with that B.S. History teaches us, if we care to think instead of just parrot the "Bush Lied" crowd, that the UN had imposed on Iraq terms of peace that, if broken, would serve as grounds for the resumption of hostilities with the stated intention of replacing the Iraqi government. Saddam broke the terms (hundreds of times) and while the UNSC decided to sit it out (France, Russia, and Germany all had billions of reasons why they didn't want their customer, Saddam, deposed) the US led a legal war to enforce the terms Iraq agreed to with the UN.

This is really simple stuff, Irving. Please don't add anti-Bush/Iraq rhetoric to the discussion of the Georgians' fight with the Bear.

I believe the Russians are using the "withdrawal" as a ruse: they might send their current forces to the rear temporarily, but they will bring up reinforcements in preparation for further advances. For those wondering why the Russians are doing it, the answer is, quite simply, because they can get away with it and everyone in the civil and military bureaucracy involved will benefit materially as a result.

Certain I am that the Russians won't leave until they've stolen everything that can be moved and destroyed the most important of what they can't. But it's more likely they will simply swallow Georgia whole, with perhaps a little rump left to appease Western feelings.

Georgia gambled and lost . End of Story . Ossetia is Russia .

Americans will not fire on Putins troops .

Ossetia was never really Georgia to begin with ,this didn't start yesterday .

...Well... you do need to turn those engines over every so often to keep them primed... Maybe their just driving them around? Keeping things in proper order...

I sure hope that they inflated the tires properly to save gas.

re: #115 Irving

Ridiculous, another swallows the line that it was all unicorns, puppies and rainbows in South Ossetia until early August when the nasty Georgians attacked. There have been dozens and dozens of links posted here by many LGFers showing, some even from Russian sources, that the Mafioso thugs running South Ossetia have been stirring up trouble there for literally years, either to sucker the Georgians into over-reacting or to convince their puppet-masters in the Kremlin that now the time is ripe. Look them up for yourself, granted it's a bit more work than swallowing Kremlin claims of genocide (unsupported by any source outside the Kremlin) and innocent Ossetian peasants, but they're there, for all the world to see , if they want to.Start by googling Eduard Kokoity, do the rest yourself. You may even find incidents where as late as last year an attempt was made to get Moscow to come in, and was rebuffed, the time was not right .Of course it's a lot easier and less trouble just believing Putin.

re: #113 Irving

Well, admittedly, Georgia actually attacked Russia, unlike Iraq. So I can see how it might be hard to spot the analogy.

And why bother with suicide bombers when you have military hardware?

Here's the link if you need it.

As long as the U.S. is in Iraq, it has no moral authority to deal with situations like this.

What? Even if American was morally bankrupt (which it is not), to write that we should just let bad things happen to our Allies is... well, it's a morally bankrupt argument.

You assist Allies when they need assistance. That's how it works.

re: #113 Irving

I looked at your link... Do you seriously want to take Russian propaganda as factual evidence to back up your claim?

(CNN) -- Six people were killed and 13 wounded in the shelling of South Ossetia by Georgian forces, South Ossetian officials said Saturday, according to Russia's Interfax news agency.

I suggest you spend some time reading up on who owns the Russian Interfax agency and how they report information.

The Russians are shooting journalists and killing civilians... heck, robbing banks. It's bothersome that in the face of history and evidence you would choose to side with the "bad guys" over admitting that an Ally had a viable reason (like our own civili War) to hold on to its own legal territory. And in the process, bad mouth America.

re: #115 Irving

I see the Dizinformatzia peddlers have arrived.

re: #113 Irving

Like Russia, given its miserable history throughout the 20th-21st Centuries, has moral authority on anything at this point?

(Hint: Gulags, Ukraine famine, Hitler-Stalin pact, backing the PLO, etc, etc., etc., etc., etc., yea verily, unto ad nauseum.)

TalkinKamel, Noam Chumpski, JHW;

Re: Irving/troll.

Folks, I think we're wrestling with a pig here. We climb down into the wallow with the filthy critter, get all dirty and sweaty trying to collar the beast, and the pig just enjoys it.

Enough.

re: #113 Irving

Sure. And Poland attacked Germany before Hitler invaded. ;-)

The reality is that the Germans murdered some of their concentration camp inmates, and dressed the corpses in German Army uniforms. They then scattered the bodies around a border checkpoint to claim a Polish "provocation".

Voila, a pretext for a German invasion of Poland. Same thing with Russia and Georgia. Provoke them until they respond, and then invade.

Hitler would be proud.

But what about when US Allies do bad and STUPID things ?
Georgia's leader signed a pack with the Russians that the Osettia situation would not involve violence ...then he attacks .

And guess what ...we are in no position troopwise or strategically to start a fight with the Russians there , not to mention the situation spiralling out of control into a possible thermonuclear war .

May I suuggest you do a bit of research in the [real purpose ] of those ABM 's and how they are strategically percieved by the Russians .
In Russsia's view they are a counterstrike AFTER a first strike . Therefore not to be considered a defensive system at all . Iran's missles cannot reach the US or Europe .

Russia finds itself surrounded by Nato and ABM sustems ...taking all that ito account , then having Georgia attack Ossetia ?

Man this is just common sense .

How would anyone like the Russians in Mexico beefing up groups that want to take back their lost territories of the Southwest ?

re: #129 Excaliber

How in the hell can an anti-ballistic missile in your words, counterstrike ? They're anti-missile, not a ballistic missile themselves. This Russia surrounded sympathy has got to go. Guess what, every country in the world is surrounded.

re: #129 Excaliber

But what about when US Allies do bad and STUPID things ?
Georgia's leader signed a pack with the Russians that the Osettia situation would not involve violence ...then he attacks .

And guess what ...we are in no position troopwise or strategically to start a fight with the Russians there , not to mention the situation spiralling out of control into a possible thermonuclear war .

May I suuggest you do a bit of research in the [real purpose ] of those ABM 's and how they are strategically percieved by the Russians .
In Russsia's view they are a counterstrike AFTER a first strike . Therefore not to be considered a defensive system at all . Iran's missles cannot reach the US or Europe .

Russia finds itself surrounded by Nato and ABM sustems ...taking all that ito account , then having Georgia attack Ossetia ?

Man this is just common sense .

How would anyone like the Russians in Mexico beefing up groups that want to take back their lost territories of the Southwest ?

This argument only works if you ignore the fact that we've been working to get Russia into NATO, G8, the numerous and productive leadership summits between our President and Russian leaders, and the multitude of other economic and military pacts (acts of goodwill) that we've signed with them. You act like we have alienated them and that we don't have constant diplomatic relations with Russia. Even now, we are trying to work with them.

This post reads like every fragile argument I heard all through the 80's. All of which have no basis in reality and have been proven to be false.

Maybe read some other sources that don't purport unrealistic conspiracy theories. I'll help you I.D. them: They usually say something like, 'The REAL Reason of the Strategic Shield."

...and what Pact are you referring to that Georgia signed? I want to read it.

re: #120 Excaliber

That's a pretty silly thing to say. Americans never fired on Brezhnev's troops in Afghanistan, but they were still beaten by American weapons.

Your haughty arrogance sounds very much like what comes out of Russia itself.

re: #123 Noam Chumpski

Even if American was morally bankrupt (which it is not), to write that we should just let bad things happen to our Allies is... well, it's a morally bankrupt argument.

Bravo, sir! Encore! *tickled pink*

I wish people would start talking about what's really important, which is not protecting Georgia (although that's very important) but protecting Ukraine, which is what Russia really wants and which is being encircled (ballistic missiles in Georgia!).

In NATO now.

Armed to the teeth NOW.

We must make it a hard target or Russia is going to swallow it like a blue point oyster. They already tried to poison the president.

If Putin has done one thing, he's shown the Israelis how to fight a war the next time Hizbollah rockets rain down on Haifa.

When he hears that we are Russian [journalists], he relaxes and introduces himself as Valery: “You can go,” he said. “I’m not letting Americans through. What’s going on there in Tbilisi? Have you heard anything? When will Saakashvili knock it off? They say everyone has agreed to peace...Write about how we stole 22,000 lari [about $16,000] from two bank machines in Gori and gave the money to the peasants.”

re: #136 Solomon2

When he hears that we are Russian [journalists], he relaxes and introduces himself as Valery: “You can go,” he said. “I’m not letting Americans through. What’s going on there in Tbilisi? Have you heard anything? When will Saakashvili knock it off? They say everyone has agreed to peace...Write about how we stole 22,000 lari [about $16,000] from two bank machines in Gori and gave the money to the peasants.”

Oh, man... Yes, the Bank footage clearly shows how this was an organized effort by the Russian military to give to the poor.

/sarcasm... if it's really necessary.

Don't be a tool for dictators and thugs and let's stop posting articles that quote directly from Russian propaganda sources.

Side note: Why is it that when Bush says something it's "jingoism" and "propaganda", but when Dictators and Theocracy's issue blatantly false information that is specifically refuted by ACTUAL media sources, it's "Real News" and "you all need to wake up to the reality, man"?

Solomon - I may have missed your own sarcasm and I apologize if so.

Comments like #113 lead me to believe that this country is finished, over, kaput. It absolutly amazes me that anyone could logically come to that conclusion. The Europeans don't seem to care either. I think their disease has spread to our shores. Hell, if I'm wrong, it's only a matter of time anyway. 51% of the population will be "minorities" by the year 2043...I don't think they will vote conservative. God...someone tell me I am wrong...this is happening under our very noses and we are powerless to stop it.

That's OK, NC. I didn't realize til you pointed it out that my quote could be read as an endorsement.

While many people on the left are eager to condemn GWB for "war crimes" no one is saying anything about these nekulturny Russians, even when they commit rampant theft and (as the Washington Post pointed out in an editorial) they officially confess to state-sponsored ethnic cleansing.

The position on not prosecuting the Russians is that "it isn't helpful". Would anyone dream of not prosecuting armed robbers in NY or Berkeley because "it isn't helpful"? Now you know that "international law" is really the law of the jungle, not the genteel sort of thing experienced in truly civilized states.

князья опаснос& #1090;и снова ездить

ссылка

APC versus cop car

Oh well, it´s not the way to peace, it´s just a hudna.

Time for Frau Merkel to stop sitting on the fence between the Sarkozy plan and the Kaczynski deal and come out with her own ideas.

Boy these folks are behind the times in reporting about the SS-21's. Not only did they move them into Georgia already, they have fired them. Here is the proof from days ago.

[Link: www.hk94.com...]

To #'s 130 & #131 JHW / Noam Chump :

Besides expanding NATO from a regional military pact to a worldwide alliance—the organization is deeply engaged in Afghanistan and is currently moving into the Pacific Basin—the Bush Administration began dismantling East-West agreements, including the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty (ABM). The demise of the Treaty allowed the U.S. to deploy an ABM and to recruit nations to sign up for the system, including Japan, India and Australia. Lastly, NATO has just agreed to build an ABM system in Eastern Europe.

In spite of the way it is portrayed, an ABM is not a defensive system and is certainly not aimed at “rogue states,” since none of them have missiles than can threaten the U.S. or Europe. An ABM is designed to absorb a retaliatory attack following a first strike. U.S. nuclear doctrine is based on this first strike, or “counterforce,” strategy.

Russia and China—currently the only two nations that can seriously challenge the idea of an American century—find themselves surrounded by U.S. bases from northern Europe, through the Middle East and Central Asia, to the north Pacific. At least in theory, the U.S. ABM system pretty much cancels out China’s modest nuclear capability, and, fully deployed, a European system could neutralize much of Russia’s.

The Bush Administration says that its ABM system is not large enough to stop Russia’s thousands of nuclear warheads, but it fails to mention that a first strike would destroy all but about five percent of those weapons. All an ABM would have to do is handle the handful of warheads that survived a counterforce strike.

The Russians and the Chinese have made it quite clear that they consider the ABM system a threat to their nuclear deterrence ability.

re: #144 Excaliber

re: #144 Excaliber

To #'s 130 & #131 JHW / Noam Chump :

Where'd that cut and paste come from? The FSB or Kos? Unattributed , un-sourced and opinion only.

Russia and China—currently the only two nations that can seriously challenge the idea of an American century—find themselves surrounded by U.S. bases from northern Europe, through the Middle East and Central Asia, to the north Pacific.

So now it's Russia and China both surrounded, but this time it's specifically by US bases. This is the first I knew we had bases in Finland, Mongolia, North Korea, all the 'stans of Central Asia, Burma, Vietnam,Belarus, Ukraine, Iran,Azerbaijan, the Kara Sea, the Laptev Sea,the Barents Sea, the East Siberian Sea, the Sea of Okhotsk, Turkmenistan, Laos, India, Nepal...

You do understand what "surrounded" means don't you? It means something like Custer at the Little Bighorn, it doesn't mean living on the same planet. What's this crap about NATO "currently moving into the Pacific Basin?" Did someone see a Greek merchant ship by Fiji or something?

How would anyone like the Russians in Mexico beefing up groups that want to take back their lost territories of the Southwest ?

Oh, I don't know, tell me, how would anyone like the old Vikings in Denmark beefing up groups that want to take back their lost territories in England, or groups in Italy recreating the Roman Empire or the Japanese recreating the Great East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere or...

On second thought please don't. I've seen enough Tu Quoque nonsense to know where you're coming from.

Sorry you're a thick-headed asshole JHW , the Russians have been bitching for quite some time now about the ABM's ,but I guess you weren't paying attention . And Perhaps you forgot that the solution to the Cuban Missle crisis , the part jerks like you dont remember , is that yea, the Soviets got rid of their missles in Cuba , in return for the US getting theirs out of Turkiye .

Sorry the analogy was over your head , but judging by your mentality that wouldn't take too much .

In the Meantime , maybe you would
suggest some sort of military action ?

re: #146 Excaliber

Blow it out your ass, I suggested no military action. How much are they paying you?

What are you suggesting ? Telling the Russsians we're pissed off ?

After they've been telling us that we're pissing them off , and then telling them to go fuck themselves ?

"how much are they paying me " ? ...now you're really showing how much of a fucking idiot you are .

re: #144 Excaliber

The Russians and the Chinese have made it quite clear that they consider the ABM system a threat to their nuclear deterrence ability.

In spite of the way it is portrayed, deterrence is not a viable strategy and does certainly not work against Islamic jihadei terrorists trying to take control of nuclear missile arsenals such as that of Pakistan. If the Russians don´t want missile defense in Europe, they should help bring AQ Khan to the Hague the day before yesterday, then maybe all we need to deter is meteors once in a while. And before the Chinese imagine their issues with Taiwan were the center of the world I recommend spending some attention to the situation between Britain and mainland Europe.

re: #148 Excaliber

I know, I know---Dizinformatzia is difficult to pull off, eh comrade?

Go sit in the corner with JH , talkinkamel , you two have a lot to discuss .

Like ONE GOOD REASON THE RUSSIANS HAVE TO TRUST BUSH AND HIS BOYS ...we risk war over American Hubris .

It's a twoway street out there , and aside from the Russians , who else is willing to go out an actually kick islamic ass?

The Russians built up their forces there because we built up Georgias.

Do try to get two of those three neurons you have bouncing around up there in that empty space between your ears , to work together .

Gosh, this one is the political equivalent to a coalcoholic.