Vanessa Kensington : “Do you smoke after sex?”

Austin Powers : “I don’t know baby, I never looked.”

-- Austin Powers : The Spy Who Shagged Me (1999)

Oriana, we hardly knew you.

RIP . . .

Function and art - rare indeed.

To whom was she referring?
Very lyrical and poetic phrasing.

all glory is fleeting.

Once the Olympics are over, given recent events, including the rising Ascension of puppet, Komrade Obama, I hope we can still deter China over Taiwan, without their leadership breaking out in laughter.

/I'd hate to see us try and defend Taiwan, etc., in a half ass fashion, without total national and world commitment, because then we lose and we may be there already

re: #4 UncleSam

To whom was she referring?
Very lyrical and poetic phrasing.

Semantical point of order!

Murder is a heart issue.
A poison, in and of itself, can't murder -- it's a substance.
Only we humans can use that substance to murder.
And the thoughts leading to that murder have their origin in the heart.

weet dreams, leezards

re: #6 Killian Bundy

Once the Olympics are over, given recent events, including the rising Ascension of puppet, Komrade Obama, I hope we can still deter China over Taiwan, without their leadership breaking out in laughter.

/I'd hate to see us try and defend Taiwan, etc., in a half ass fashion, without total national and world commitment, because then we lose and we may be there already

not as long as there is a 7th Fleet & the will to use it.

/2nd part is the operative function

re: #1 Temujin

If you smoke after sex, you're doing it too fast.

Some Democrats Urge Delay in Building a U.S. Missile System in Eastern Europe

By ERIC LIPTON
Published: August 19, 2008
WASHINGTON — As the Bush administration speeds ahead with plans to construct a missile defense system in Eastern Europe, some Democrats in Congress want to put on the brakes, saying it has not been adequately tested.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was scheduled to be in Warsaw on Wednesday to sign an agreement on the missiles with Poland, which agreed to the basing of 10 interceptors last week, after the Russian attacks on Georgia. Justified as a defense against a missile attack on Europe by a rogue nation like Iran, the installation has provoked outrage from Russia.

Even before the agreement was reached, the Bush administration had proposed spending $712 million in the coming fiscal year to start digging silos in Poland; installing a related radar system in the Czech Republic, another former Soviet satellite that is now a NATO member; and buying initial parts for the first interceptor missiles.

But Democrats are now questioning all that spending as premature.

“Go ahead and move on with research and development,” said Representative Ellen O. Tauscher, Democrat of California, who is chairwoman of the House subcommittee that oversees the missile defense program. “But as far as putting holes in the ground in Poland, we are saying no.”

The conflict between Georgia and Russia has complicated the debate.

While the Bush administration has long argued the missile defense system is not motivated by any Russian threat, Republicans in Congress intend to use the recent events to push for an immediate start of construction.

“It is going to be easier to make our case on Capitol Hill now,” said Representative Trent Franks, Republican of Arizona, a proponent of the program, “as this has reminded Poland and some of the other nations formerly dominated by the Soviet Union that the coercive Russia mind-set of militarily threatening your neighbors has not completely disappeared.”

The two presidential candidates have also taken sides, with Senator John McCain supporting quick construction while Senator Barack Obama is urging caution, saying the system is unproven.

Jesus loves John McCain and maybe even the GOP. I can't come up with a better explanation.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

re: #7 least

Semantical point of order!

Murder is a heart issue.
A poison, in and of itself, can't murder -- it's a substance.
Only we humans can use that substance to murder.
And the thoughts leading to that murder have their origin in the heart.

weet dreams, leezards

and where does glory reside?

True Glory is anything but.

re: #9 BlueCanuck

If you smoke after sex, you're doing it too fast.

or at lest slow down & use lubricant.

/consult your -10 & the LOI for details

re: #12 RTLM

True Glory is anything but.

which is not to be confused with "True Grit"

/found a Lewis Grizzard book today.

good night all :-)

re: #7 least

Semantical point of order!

Murder is a heart issue.
A poison, in and of itself, can't murder -- it's a substance.
Only we humans can use that substance to murder.
And the thoughts leading to that murder have their origin in the heart.

weet dreams, leezards

I don't think you understood either the quote or my post.

re: #9 BlueCanuck

I already had that post prepared for the new thread, whenever it came up.

Didn't even read the Fallaci quote 'til I'd posted.

Oh well. Woulda been more appropriate with one of those petroleum tanker photos, mebbe ...

re: #8 redc1c4

not as long as there is a 7th Fleet & the will to use it.

/2nd part is the operative function

I'm seeing a looming convergence, which I hope is not already starting, former Soviet Pac countries, Taiwan, Israel, a much larger coordinated dogpile attack than I would have anticipated four months ago.

/the enemy alliances are there and I'm not sure we have the national will to stop it or roll it back

Senator Obama recently visited Hawaii:

It was decided by a native American tribe visiting Hawaii to give Sen. Obama a honorary citizenship to the tribe. It was a great ceremony with dancing and feast for all. The elders presented Sen. Obama with his documents and his honorary name "Walking Eagle". Sen. Obama gave a most beautiful speech and soon departed with his motorcade. A local news reporter went to one of the tribal leaders and asked him that was such a wonderful ceremony, but could you tell me what the significance of the name "Walking Eagle". Yes, he said, when an eagle is so full of shit he can't fly, we call him a "Walking Eagle".

re: #19 tommoon

"But why do you ask, Two Dogs Fucking?"

as a side bar to the ongoing "what, if anything, can we do about russia in Georgia" conversation:

i have been suggesting since day one that we cut the overland LOC's between russia and Georgia, without actually attacking russian forces in the process, to cut off resupply and make their current tactical psitions untenable.

certain parties have stated that this would be an unacceptable escalation to the russians and they would respond poorly to such an event.

it dawned on me this evening that the russian staff officers may have actually anticipated such a reaction on our part and planned accordingly.

every vehicle picture i've seen has been of obsolete, or at least 2nd class vehicles: MTLB's (1950's tech) T-62 (early 60's upgrade of the 1950's T54/55), BMP-1, late 60's and the ubiquitous BTR's. i haven't seen any T-72's, but even they are not current tech, or close to it.

IOW, the bear only sent vehicles they can afford to lose, should we slam the door. no T-80 or 90's, or beyond. no BMP2's or better, just obsolete shit that only they would still carry on the books.

i think it's time for Operation Landslide.

re: #18 Killian Bundy

I'm seeing a looming convergence, which I hope is not already starting, former Soviet Pac countries, Taiwan, Israel, a much larger coordinated dogpile attack than I would have anticipated four months ago.

/the enemy alliances are there and I'm not sure we have the national will to stop it or roll it back

huh? who's dog piling whom?

Send Russia a message - Sink the Black Sea Flag Ships.
[Link: topics.blogs.nytimes.com...]

These ones.

(10)

Signora Fallaci,
La manchiamo molto.

re: #10 funky chicken

PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS JUST A JOKE AND ISN'T HAPPENING.

re: #21 redc1c4

Interesting analysis. Would that also be why they recalled all the old pilots to fly the old planes? Because they were expendable? And also on the off chance the Georgians did get lucky in knocking out any new equipment that was used this would deny the NATO powers any opportunity to see the latest advances of Russian army tech since the end of the cold war.

re: #23 RTLM

Send Russia a message - Sink the Black Sea Flag Ships.
[Link: topics.blogs.nytimes.com...]

These ones.

(10)

send a better one: cut off all their troops in Georgia from land resupply, make the airspace untenable through the use of Georgian employed MANPADS, and put a couple of Burke class destroyers in the harbor area to protect the sovereignty of an allied nation.

the russian troops can walk home, and Georgia can sell the remnants for scrap/spare parts on the open market for hard currency.

re: #25 StudSupreme

PLEASE TELL ME THIS IS JUST A JOKE AND ISN'T HAPPENING.

it's just a joke......

or, more likely, the congress critter is: after all, she represents the PRC.

re: #21 redc1c4

i have been suggesting since day one that we cut the overland LOC's between russia and Georgia, without actually attacking russian forces in the process, to cut off resupply and make their current tactical psitions untenable.

It's, by itself, not worth it. Russia will probably, mostly leave within the next two weeks. Kiss South Ossetia and Abkhazia goodbye. They haven't really been part of Georgia for at least two decades. If we're lucky, Russia might not insist on redrawing the world map.

/they will withdraw, once they degrade the Georgian military installations, capability, and stockpiles, creating a scorched earth military buffer zone, just like they promised they'd do when this started

re: #27 redc1c4

send a better one: cut off all their troops in Georgia from land resupply, make the airspace untenable through the use of Georgian employed MANPADS, and put a couple of Burke class destroyers in the harbor area to protect the sovereignty of an allied nation.

the russian troops can walk home, and Georgia can sell the remnants for scrap/spare parts on the open market for hard currency.

Eggselent idea! And October is coming fast on the Caucasus.

You run that one, I'll run maritime.

(this is why we need Littoral Navy ships)

re: #26 BlueCanuck

Interesting analysis. Would that also be why they recalled all the old pilots to fly the old planes? Because they were expendable? And also on the off chance the Georgians did get lucky in knocking out any new equipment that was used this would deny the NATO powers any opportunity to see the latest advances of Russian army tech since the end of the cold war.

advances in russian AFV tech? are you trying to get me to blow booze out my nose?

their last advance was the BMP/BMD.

i've yet to see a tank design that wasn't more of the same. they've come up with various reactive systems, passive and aggressive, but have never gone to, AFAIK, layered armor...... granted i don't research anywhere near as much as i used to, since i'm highly unlikely to be involved in hunting/killing AFV's anytime soon, but i'm plugged in enough that anything earthshaking would likely have tripped my awareness.

as for the pilots, i can't speak to that, but it's possible that they haven't been able to recruit/train/retain that many pilots. it's hard to draft them, and what's the incentive to enlist? good pay? neyt. fun. travel, adventure? neyt. glory? neyt. having Tom Cruise portray you in his next movie? nyet. one no longer needs to do a successful military stint to get places in the Party, so why bother.

at least one of the planes shot down was a Backfire, and it was allegedly doing recon, which seems strange for a strategic bomber.... they may be more FUBAR than we think.

re: #22 redc1c4

huh? who's dog piling whom?

Okay, lets put the current " Baltic troubles" aside.

Taiwan, Israel

/the perpetrators have long have contingency plans and they're growing emboldened by the week, even if we'd end up winning, we're no where near prepared for the cost

Killian Bundy

The Russian are currently driving the roads of George as if the own them. Could someone in the State department tell me why this was not foreseen. I think Puttin thinks Obama has a real shot at the White house. If the democrats win Europe will be for the taking.

re: #31 redc1c4

I guess I am further out of the loop then I thought. Thanks for the lesson red.

re: #29 Killian Bundy

It's, by itself, not worth it. Russia will probably, mostly leave within the next two weeks. Kiss South Ossetia and Abkhazia goodbye. They haven't really been part of Georgia for at least two decades. If we're lucky, Russia might not insist on redrawing the world map.

/they will withdraw, once they degrade the Georgian military installations, capability, and stockpiles, creating a scorched earth military buffer zone, just like they promised they'd do when this started

it's *always* worth it.... bullies need to get their nuts crushed and their asses handed to them. i say we walk down the hill like and old bull.

then, after they go home bowlegged, we buildup the Georgians so that this doesn't happen again. there's plenty of M-1 plains still lying around here somewhere, and they'll stop anything the russians have.

in short, i'm not willing to bank on "probably". god made man, but Col. Colt made them equal: it's time the russians learned that life *is* a John Wayne movie.

re: #32 Killian Bundy

Okay, lets put the current " Baltic troubles" aside.

Taiwan, Israel

/the perpetrators have long have contingency plans and they're growing emboldened by the week, even if we'd end up winning, we're no where near prepared for the cost

so Taiwan & Israel are planning on attacking the Chicoms?

Dude! you're waaaaaaay into Iron Fist territory if you believe that.

re: #33 tommoon

Killian Bundy

The Russian are currently driving the roads of George as if the own them. Could someone in the State department tell me why this was not foreseen. I think Puttin thinks Obama has a real shot at the White house. If the democrats win Europe will be for the taking.

What I'm seeing is that Russia is going to pull back.

/but not until they've accomplished their military objectives and Georgia's sovereignty won't be the same, threatening to add Georgia to NATO, at this point, is faerie talk

re: #36 redc1c4

so Taiwan & Israel are planning on attacking the Chicoms?

/um, sure, that's what I meant

Is this what our soldiers died and bleed for in Iraq?

China and Iraq ready to sign a $1.2 Billion oil deal

Somethings seriously wrong here and why aren't the Democrats asking the same question?

Pigman on Wash. P.C. giving terrorists our rights.....

re: #24 StudSupreme

Traduree, per favore ...

/?

Killian Bundy

It is really surprising that Russia would do this at this time. It is assumed that an aggressive Russia would favor McCain. Just to wait until Obama is President would definitely be in their favor.

re: #37 Killian Bundy

What I'm seeing is that Russia is going to pull back.

/but not until they've accomplished their military objectives and Georgia's sovereignty won't be the same, threatening to add Georgia to NATO, at this point, is faerie talk

better they be driven back, or better yet, made to walk back. either we gut them now, or hope we still have the guts in the future when they or someone else decides to see just how far they can go before we do something.

right now, we're in a position to do what needs to be done with a minimum of direct confrontation, and with minimal risk and/or/loss to either side. yeah, they loose a shit pot full of obsolete armor, but why do you think they sent it, and not top of the line?

1. moving the best shit would have attracted attention, since it's most likely what the NRO keeps an eye on.

2. the old shit is good enough for what they're doing, given the numbers they employed versus what Georgia had.

3. regardless of how stupid soviet/russian leaders have been, their staff officers are nobody's fools. they can read maps, and russian engineers are legendary. undoubtedly when they were told to plan this, they took one look at the map and said "what if they cut us off?" "lets send guavno, so if we loose it we're better off, since we won't have to maintain it anymore."

China is very carefully examining our response to the Russian aggression in Georgia.

Its crouching and waiting to see what kinds of friends Taiwan has.

Well...there's Good news and some bad news.

The leader of a certain African country beginning with 'Z' has passed away today.

The bad news is it ain't Mugabe.

re: #38 Killian Bundy

/um, sure, that's what I meant

well, you weren't really clear in either that post or the previous one. i'd be happy to read a more definitive post of what you're suggesting may happen, should you wish to post it.

re: #35 redc1c4

it's *always* worth it.... bullies need to get their nuts crushed and their asses handed to them. i say we walk down the hill like and old bull.

then, after they go home bowlegged, we buildup the Georgians so that this doesn't happen again. there's plenty of M-1 plains still lying around here somewhere, and they'll stop anything the russians have.

You must forget that we don't have the all important land/sea corridor.

/unless you're counting on Turkey, and that probably cost many American lives, making the 4th ID waste weeks sailing to Kuwait and forcing us to exclusively drive to Baghdad/Tikrit from the south

re: #39 Maximu§

Is this what our soldiers died and bleed for in Iraq?

China and Iraq ready to sign a $1.2 Billion oil deal

Somethings seriously wrong here and why aren't the Democrats asking the same question?

preexisting contract, negotiated in the bad old days. they have renegotiated for better terms. better they honor old contracts (rule of law) than abrogate them like every third world country you can think of.

although it bothers me to see the chicoms there, it's actually a good thing, in the long run. (i hope. %-)

re: #44 RTLM

I'm waiting to see what kind of response the Chinese have to Russia. Granted this is something exactly out of the ChiComs playbook (see Tibet, Tianamen square and saber rattling towards Taiwan) but there's a long history of animosity between the Chinese and Russians dating back to the tsars and Qing dynasty...hell, the two of them fought some small-scale conflicts while the USA was engaged in Vietnam.

Let's also keep in mind that some pivotal pipelines, power plants, dams, various resources and most importantly the Trans-Siberian railway are located not too far from the Russian/Chinese frontier and within fairly easy striking distance for China's Army.

/maybe an opportunity to play the two against each other will open up soon enough

re: #43 redc1c4

right now, we're in a position to do what needs to be done with a minimum of direct confrontation, and with minimal risk and/or/loss to either side. yeah, they loose a shit pot full of obsolete armor, but why do you think they sent it, and not top of the line?

We're not even close to being in position, look at a map.

/unless you're talking nuclear exchange, because our tactical air would draw that, you don't really think they'll just accept us establishing air superiority, do you?

re: #47 Killian Bundy

You must forget that we don't have the all important land/sea corridor.

/unless you're counting on Turkey, and that probably cost many American lives, making the 4th ID waste weeks sailing to Kuwait and forcing us to exclusively drive to Baghdad/Tikrit from the south

we don't need either: one night of B-2 raids on the 5 land LOC's effectively cut off the russian forces for months, if not longer. a few C-130s worth of MANPADS and ATGM's from Poland and the Baltic states and both aerial resupply and naval withdrawal are out. once those armored forces run out of fuel, they are poorly sited, ill equipped pill boxes waiting to be reduced one by one. troops have to eat, and there's only so much food to steal.

you, and others, keep thinking confrontation: think asymmetric. hit'em where they ain't and gut them. then stand back & watch them fall.

re: #49 Fenway_Nation

I'm waiting to see what kind of response the Chinese have to Russia. Granted this is something exactly out of the ChiComs playbook (see Tibet, Tianamen square and saber rattling towards Taiwan) but there's a long history of animosity between the Chinese and Russians dating back to the tsars and Qing dynasty...hell, the two of them fought some small-scale conflicts while the USA was engaged in Vietnam.

Let's also keep in mind that some pivotal pipelines, power plants, dams, various resources and most importantly the Trans-Siberian railway are located not too far from the Russian/Chinese frontier and within fairly easy striking distance for China's Army.

/maybe an opportunity to play the two against each other will open up soon enough

Too right. And Russia has licensed the bulk of their military technology to China. They'll be fighting superior versions of the equipment they sold to the Chicoms.

1969

And Taiwan is no push over.

redc1c4

You're talking about WWIII, it's not going to happen with Bush only 4 months in office.

re: #48 redc1c4

preexisting contract, negotiated in the bad old days. they have renegotiated for better terms. better they honor old contracts (rule of law) than abrogate them like every third world country you can think of.

although it bothers me to see the chicoms there, it's actually a good thing, in the long run. (i hope. %-)

hope your right brother...bed time for me.

re: #52 RTLM

And Taiwan is no push over.

The ChiComs would overrun Taiwan if they so chose to- it's just a matter of how much they losses they could withstand in doing so.

re: #50 Killian Bundy

We're not even close to being in position, look at a map.

/unless you're talking nuclear exchange, because our tactical air would draw that, you don't really think they'll just accept us establishing air superiority, do you?

quit thinking Cold War and start thinking next war.

who said anything about attacking the russians ourselves?

plant a few explosive charges on Georgian territory at their request, blowing up only Georgian rock, Georgian roads and Georgian bridges, while flying over Georgian airspace, and what's to bitch about?

transshipping aid from other countries is humanitarian, even if the shipping containers have yellow and brown bands on them, especially if we don't say anything, just do it. it's not liek they've never done anything similar to us. (Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, everywhere else)

re: #53 tommoon

redc1c4

You're talking about WWIII, it's not going to happen with Bush only 4 months in office.

why? we're talking no direct US/russian confrontation, no US violation of russian airspace/territory/costal waters, no US caused russian casualties, simply an effort to return things to the ante bellum status, so what would be their casus belli?

re: #55 Fenway_Nation

The ChiComs would overrun Taiwan if they so chose to- it's just a matter of how much they losses they could withstand in doing so.

Yes. But they would have to destroy the entire island to do it.

China is sort of fucked here. If they annihilate Taiwan and take it over, the Aisian/Pac Rim economy will tank. Australia, ROK and Japan would immediately enagage and China would be a world pariah.

Too many fronts too quick. Weird.

re: #55 Fenway_Nation

The ChiComs would overrun Taiwan if they so chose to- it's just a matter of how much they losses they could withstand in doing so.

and how are they going to get to Taiwan? there's a lot of salt water between the two, and unless Santa came early the PRC *still* doesn't have a blue water navy, let alone an amphib capability.

And yes, the NRO sees everything and the NSA hears everything, as far as you know, it's eyes only classified.

/they don't have the capability to move hard assets through denied territory without any logistical hope

re: #58 RTLM

Yes. But they would have to destroy the entire island to do it.

China is sort of fucked here. If they annihilate Taiwan and take it over, the Aisian/Pac Rim economy will tank. Australia, ROK and Japan would immediately enagage and China would be a world pariah.

Too many fronts too quick. Weird.

how is china going to get to the island to begin with?

all warfare is logistics, and china doesn't have any.

re: #61 redc1c4

how is china going to get to the island to begin with?

all warfare is logistics, and china doesn't have any.

They don't have to. They have missile nests concentrated on their side of the Strait.

re: #59 redc1c4

Mailand China and Taiwan are only seperated by 120 or so km of water. Granted I don't think they'll be building a 120km pontoon bridge, but I don't think multiple sustained amphibious assaults would be out of the question, either.

re: #58 RTLM

You mention ROK, but how much persuasion do you think the ChiComs need to get the Norks to attack to the South?

Even when the cease-fire was written up, Seoul was within range of Nork artillery. They had 50+ years to rectify that but did nothing...that's just baffling.

re: #35 redc1c4

it's *always* worth it.... bullies need to get their nuts crushed and their asses handed to them. i say we walk down the hill like and old bull.

then, after they go home bowlegged, we buildup the Georgians so that this doesn't happen again. there's plenty of M-1 plains still lying around here somewhere, and they'll stop anything the russians have.

in short, i'm not willing to bank on "probably". god made man, but Col. Colt made them equal: it's time the russians learned that life *is* a John Wayne movie.

i like the way you think, my friend.

So they send the worn out trash they can afford to lose and the problem child troops they can afford to lose. And by the behavior of the troops scare the neighbors of what will happen if they pay them a visit. As in the lead troops into Germany in WWII.

Per last week comment, go to flickr, search tag T-28 and look at wpnsmech uploads. Not organized yet but enough posted.

re: #59 redc1c4

and how are they going to get to Taiwan? there's a lot of salt water between the two, and unless Santa came early the PRC *still* doesn't have a blue water navy, let alone an amphib capability.

You must have slept through the massive Chinese medium range missile buildup aimed at Taiwan in the last several decades.

/we can't stop a Taiwan overrun without "going all the way" against China and it may cost us a Carrier, among other warships, and our Ohio's in the area will have to travel to their home ports for Trident refills, Russia, on the other hand, can credibly destroy the continental U.S. with ICBMS, no matter what we do

re: #60 Killian Bundy

And yes, the NRO sees everything and the NSA hears everything, as far as you know, it's eyes only classified.

/they don't have the capability to move hard assets through denied territory without any logistical hope

there are only 5 land routes from russia to Georgia. *ALL* of them go through mountains. not hills, not the odd steep grade, *MOUNTAINS*. complete with steep faces, bridges, tunnels, etc, or , what we called them in anti-armor warfare, "choke points"

as for moving armor through "denied territory" (your term, and i'm not sure" what you mean), i can tell you from vast personal experience that moving large numbers of vehicles over friendly terrain, in the daylight, under administrative rules, is logistic intensive. moving the same number of vehicles over the same terrain under combat conditions is much more so.

moving large numbers of AFV's over a constricted route, is a real bastard. cutting said LOC is a guarantee that said force is doomed.
what the russians have done here is what Hitler did at Stalingrad. they nave moved forward a force that can't be reailly resupplied. the only difference is the Georgians aren't he Germans, and the winters are a bit less cold in Georgia. but if we cut the roads, the russians are just as screwed.

re: #53 tommoon

redc1c4

You're talking about WWIII WWIV, it's not going to happen with Bush only 4 months in office.

i see you havent been paying attention.

re: #62 RTLM

They don't have to. They have missile nests concentrated on their side of the Strait.

so missiles are now capable of occupying territory?

re: #64 Mel Lono

i like the way you think, my friend.

/you must know where the magical land/sea corridor to Georgia is

re: #63 Fenway_Nation

Mailand China and Taiwan are only seperated by 120 or so km of water. Granted I don't think they'll be building a 120km pontoon bridge, but I don't think multiple sustained amphibious assaults would be out of the question, either.

re: #58 RTLM

You mention ROK, but how much persuasion do you think the ChiComs need to get the Norks to attack to the South?

Even when the cease-fire was written up, Seoul was within range of Nork artillery. They had 50+ years to rectify that but did nothing...that's just baffling.

the chinese don't have *any* amphib capabilty worth mentioning, let alone one to take Taiwan. hell, they can't even take Quemoy & Matsu (SP?) and they're right off their coast.

i call paper tiger. if the PLA can't march there, they can't do it.

Mel Lono

OK inlighten me? What have I not been paying attention too.

re: #70 Killian Bundy

/you must know where the magical land/sea corridor to Georgia is

via air. it's an asymmetrical engagement.

/welcome to AirLand Battle 2020.

re: #70 Killian Bundy
It's called Florida/

re: #67 redc1c4

The Russians are already in Georgia, they split the country in half in less than four days. We can't get vehicles there by ground if we wanted to.

/that's what you're not grokking because you haven't looked at a map

re: #72 tommoon

Mel Lono

OK inlighten me? What have I not been paying attention too.

Some say we're already in WWV, but that's just sematics. Would you agree that we've been in a world war since 9-11?

re: #74 Mel Lono

It's called Florida/

/go ahead, CENTCOM, ship it to Turkey, see how that works out

Mel Lono

No!

re: #66 Killian Bundy

You must have slept through the massive Chinese medium range missile buildup aimed at Taiwan in the last several decades.

which has nothing to do with them actually being able to *take* Taiwan, only threaten it.

/we can't stop a Taiwan overrun without "going all the way" against China and it may cost us a Carrier, among other warships, and our Ohio's in the area will have to travel to their home ports for Trident refills, Russia, on the other hand, can credibly destroy the continental U.S. with ICBMS, no matter what we do

our CVBG's will likely be on the ocean side of Taiwan, using standoff per doctrine, and, in doing so, making the chicom targeting solutions nearly impossible. since they lack a blue water navy or strategic recon assets. sweeping their naval assets will happen in the first 36 or so hours, and their aerial forces will have nearly as an exciting life.

you've yet to explain why russia would nuke us, or why we would need to nuke china, since they lake the resources to project power anywhere their infantry can't walk. even the PLA isn't large enough to fill the Taiwan straits with bodies sufficiently to allow the survivors to invade.

re: #73 redc1c4

via air. it's an asymmetrical engagement.

/welcome to AirLand Battle 2020.

Sorry, Georgia isn't Afghanistan.

/guess again

re: #78 tommoon

Do you have any friends or family who are or were in the military?

Mel Lono

I'm a decorated Vietnam vet. I did three tours in Vietnam. If you were not so new here you would know that.

re: #78 tommoon

Mel Lono

No!

Guess i've got the rear guard tonight.

re: #75 Killian Bundy

The Russians are already in Georgia, they split the country in half in less than four days. We can't get vehicles there by ground if we wanted to.

/that's what you're not grokking because you haven't looked at a map

i don't want to get *any* vehicles there. there's no reason to.

5 B-2 sorties, on one night, targeting selected rock faces, bridges and tunnel entrances, and suddenly the russians have no LOC's to support their advance. not only that, but since we waited until all russian convoys were past targeted areas, we haven't hurt any of the poor dears.

one more time: as Guderian said "Logistics is the ball and chain of armored warfare."

cut the resupply line, and they're FUBAR. that's how Israel got the Eqyptian army to cry uncle in '73, because they got across the canal and cut off a whole army, and were headed towards doing the same to more. the Germans lost the 7th Army at Stalingrad because the russians cut them off. we won the Battle of the Bulge because the 101st held Bastonge and denied the Krauts the logistic netw*rk they needed to advance (other reasons too, but it makes my point)

before the first shot has been fired, the quartermaster has already decided the outcome of the battle. (Guderian again. %-)

re: #80 Killian Bundy

Sorry, Georgia isn't Afghanistan.

/guess again

who's guessing? (although Afghanistan has interesting comparison points, it's not the same tactical/strategic problem)

re: #82 tommoon

Mel Lono

I'm a decorated Vietnam vet. I did three tours in Vietnam. If you were not so new here you would know that.

not so new, but my thanks for your service.
Dad was a marine. I am Coast Guard. So.... what's your take on Afgan, Pak and the "new Russia"?

re: #79 redc1c4

you've yet to explain why russia would nuke us, or why we would need to nuke china, since they lake the resources to project power anywhere their infantry can't walk. even the PLA isn't large enough to fill the Taiwan straits with bodies sufficiently to allow the survivors to invade.

Well, Russia isn't going to sit back and idiotically play your asymmetric warfare game, at least not on our terms.

China will lose, depending on who is our President and how mush else is going on at the time, we can only, theoretically fight two fronts.

The "river to the sea" attack is building against Israel.

/Iraq casualties will be a grim milestone by an order of magnitude, Obama may be our President and clearly predisposed to accept terms/surrender to his natural allies

Mel Lono

No. Maybe KP for a few days. I bet you are a good person Mel. You're here, so that shows character. Don't call people out if you don't know them.

re: #84 redc1c4

I like the whole multiple strategic landslide idea, but I'd rather have it done by proxy than USAF airstrike.

You're also overlooking the fact that the Russians are occupying the city of Poti, Georgia's primary port and naval HQ (as it were) and could move men and materiel that way....unless more sabotage-by-proxy was in the cards.

re: #88 tommoon

Mel Lono

No. Maybe KP for a few days. I bet you are a good person Mel. You're here, so that shows character. Don't call people out if you don't know them.

I call them out to get to know them. I'm here most nights, but havent seen your moniker lately. If I have offended, i apologize. But the question still stands. If we're not at war, then what is it that we send our army and navy to do?

re: #84 redc1c4

one more time: as Guderian said "Logistics is the ball and chain of armored warfare."

/and Rommel chokes on sand in his grave, von Paulus chokes on snow

re: #91 Killian Bundy

/and Rommel chokes on sand in his grave, von Paulus chokes on snow

Was it Robin Williams who said, "Choke 'em if they can't take a f-ck"?

Mel,

I come and go. Been here since 2004. I'll now consider you a friend. You're right about our military, I'm here in Hawaii, I see and interact with many of our active duty people, they are the best.

re: #65 FamHistoryGuy

So they send the worn out trash they can afford to lose and the problem child troops they can afford to lose. And by the behavior of the troops scare the neighbors of what will happen if they pay them a visit. As in the lead troops into Germany in WWII.

Per last week comment, go to flickr, search tag T-28 and look at wpnsmech uploads. Not organized yet but enough posted.

could you give a better search parameter or maybe a link?

danke.

re: #55 Fenway_Nation

The ChiComs would overrun Taiwan if they so chose to- it's just a matter of how much they losses they could withstand in doing so.

just as we aren't in the cold war YET
the chicoms don't have the navy to do it YET

re: #93 tommoon

mahalo, my friend. Take a wave at Sandy for me and don't forget to duck and cover.

Turns out Poti, Georgia is also home to a free economic zone jointly run by the UAE that's been open for all of four months.

/Wonder if there's any seething regarding this? If so, I'd be in rare agreement with them

re: #95 yochanan

just as we aren't in the cold war YET
the chicoms don't have the navy to do it YET

Not yet.

/but watch what they do after the Olympics are over, within two weeks

Currently the Geo-political Teutonic plates are shifting who do you want as commander in chief the light worker or someone who knows what a military is for and how to use it?

Mel

I'm also a biker. I love to ride the Islands. Too old for Sandy Beach, it would displace my back.

re: #87 Killian Bundy

Well, Russia isn't going to sit back and idiotically play your asymmetric warfare game, at least not on our terms.

China will lose, depending on who is our President and how mush else is going on at the time, we can only, theoretically fight two fronts.

The "river to the sea" attack is building against Israel.

/Iraq casualties will be a grim milestone by an order of magnitude, Obama may be our President and clearly predisposed to accept terms/surrender to his natural allies

so why should we play anything on their (russian terms?) which is, apparently, what you want us to do. you claim we can do nothing conventional, yet dismiss out of hand anything unconventional. at least it would take them out of the OCDA cycle and allow us time to do something different, rather than dance to their tune. you *are* familiar with the most recent versions for FM 100, aren't you?

China will lose what? China can't project power beyond it's borders. who re they going to attack and why?

as for the attack against Israel, who's going to lead that? Syria? maybe. Jordan? not likely. Egpyt? are the US troops in the passes leaving? the paleostinians? ......

you're well into Iron Fist territory now, and would do well to quit spouting gibberish.

re: #98 Killian Bundy

That is exactly why obama can't be POTUS & COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF.

and frankly I don't give a damn about obama/mccain's position on gay men shagging or abortion

re: #91 Killian Bundy

/and Rommel chokes on sand in his grave, von Paulus chokes on snow

whereas you are simply choking on facts.

re: #98 Killian Bundy

Not yet.

/but watch what they do after the Olympics are over, within two weeks

they're going to build a blue water navy with amphib capability and the supporting forces in 2 weeks?

/that's more impressive than Genesis.

re: #94 redc1c4

[Link: flickr.com...]

Try the above.

Bitte.

re: #101 redc1c4

so why should we play anything on their (russian terms?) which is, apparently, what you want us to do. you claim we can do nothing conventional, yet dismiss out of hand anything unconventional. at least it would take them out of the OCDA cycle and allow us time to do something different, rather than dance to their tune. you *are* familiar with the most recent versions for FM 100, aren't you?

China will lose what? China can't project power beyond it's borders. who re they going to attack and why?

as for the attack against Israel, who's going to lead that? Syria? maybe. Jordan? not likely. Egpyt? are the US troops in the passes leaving? the paleostinians? ......

you're well into Iron Fist territory now, and would do well to quit spouting gibberish.

ISRAEL'S PROBLEMS COME FROM IRAN, SYRIA, HEZBALLAH AND HAMAS i doubt they can win with out iran having nukes but they can make Israel pay a very heavy price esp if Israel has defeatist poltical leaderSHIT

re: #95 yochanan

just as we aren't in the cold war YET
the chicoms don't have the navy to do it YET

it'd take them years from right *now* to get there......

and that's assuming they can spend the capital to build it.

re: #105 FamHistoryGuy

[Link: flickr.com...]

Try the above.

Bitte.

"target!"

gracias!

redc1c4

I've known Bundy for several years, and have read many of his post, he never chokes on his facts.

re: #101 redc1c4

you're well into Iron Fist territory now, and would do well to quit spouting gibberish.

Yes, you've convinced me.

/let's just kick ass, take over the rest of the world, because they'll realize the wickedness of their ways, immediately surrender, and our casualties will be miraculously minimal

re: #106 yochanan

More importantly and with immense strategic implications, Russia is also trying to send Israel a clear message that Tel Aviv's military support for Tbilisi in organizing, training and equipping Georgia's army will no longer be tolerated. Private Israeli security firms and retired military officials are actively involved in Georgian security. Further, Israel's interest in Caspian oil and gas pipelines is growing and Russia seeks to stop this activity at this time. Intense negotiations about current and future pipelines between Israel, Turkey, Georgia, Turkmenistan, and Azerbaijan are tied to receiving oil at the terminal at Ashkelon and on to the Red Sea port of Eilat. Finally, Russia is sending a clear message that it will not tolerate US influence in Georgia nor Tbilisi's interests - supported by the pro-US Georgian President Mikhal Saakashvili - in joining NATO. Overall, the military crisis will push Moscow to punish Israel for its assistance to Georgia, and challenge the US to do more than voice rhetoric.

In the Gulf, there are several broad implications. First is the impact of the war on Gulf investment in the Caucasus and in Russia. The Russian damage to Ras al-Khaimah's investment plan in Georgia is troublesome. The Ras al-Khaimah government has recently invested in the Georgian port of Poti where its real-estate development arm Rakeen is developing a free zone. Rakeen is also developing some mixed-use projects near the capital Tbilisi. The firm has three projects in Georgia - Tbilisi Heights and Uptown Tbilisi - with a total value of $1.98 billion, while a third is being planned. But Ras al-Khaimah's other major investment did not remain unhurt. The Georgian harbor Poti, which is majority owned by the Ras al-Khaimah Investment Authority (Rakia), was badly damaged in Russian air raids. In April 2008, Georgia sold a 51 percent stake in the Poti port area to Rakia to develop a free economic zone (FEZ) in a 49-year management concession, and to manage a new port terminal. The creation of FEZ, to be developed by Rakeen, was officially inaugurated by Saakashvili on April 15, 2008. Previously the trend in Russo-Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) relations focused on strengthening the "north-south" economic corridor between the two regions; this linkage may now be in jeopardy if more Gulf investment goes up in smoke.

Nearing the Iron Fistisphere.

Here

re: #106 yochanan

ISRAEL'S PROBLEMS COME FROM IRAN, SYRIA, HEZBALLAH AND HAMAS i doubt they can win with out iran having nukes but they can make Israel pay a very heavy price esp if Israel has defeatist poltical leaderSHIT

how many hours to Damascus? now might be the time.....

that would cut off resupply to Lebanon, and limit Iran's access. granted it'd cause a stir, but lots of people might be secretly pleased.

re: #104 redc1c4

they're going to build a blue water navy with amphib capability and the supporting forces in 2 weeks?

/eat crow, the Navy link might be more tasty

re: #110 Killian Bundy

Yes, you've convinced me.

/let's just kick ass, take over the rest of the world, because they'll realize the wickedness of their ways, immediately surrender, and our casualties will be miraculously minimal

you might try actually *reading* my ideas as written, without filtering them through your preconceived notions, and then comment on whatever points you have issues with, rather than continuing to argue points i never made.

it would certainly make learned discourse easier on both ends.
you'd understand my point, and i'd have a clue what you were objecting to.

re: #106 yochanan

Russia, Georgia, Israel
Late link... still reading up on this.

re: #109 tommoon

redc1c4

I've known Bundy for several years, and have read many of his post, he never chokes on his facts.

i've read many of his posts, but he appears to be off his feed in this thread........ maybe it's the subject matter?

re: #111 Mel Lono

What'd I say, sheesh.

/well illustrated

re: #26 BlueCanuck

Interesting analysis. Would that also be why they recalled all the old pilots to fly the old planes? Because they were expendable? And also on the off chance the Georgians did get lucky in knocking out any new equipment that was used this would deny the NATO powers any opportunity to see the latest advances of Russian army tech since the end of the cold war.

Or because the whole thing is a rogue operation by Putin not supported by the sane parts of the Russian military.

re: #113 redc1c4

Before Israel were to do anything they would have to settle there political ship of state.

we have seen that the future will have very difficult choices AND NOW IS THE TIME TO HAVE A VERY STEADY HAND AT THE TILLER OF THE SHIP OF STATE. Everything is speculation what will happen in the future but hints of it are being shown.

OBAMA IS NOT THAT HAND.

re: #114 Killian Bundy

/eat crow, the Navy link might be more tasty

some crow:
"China's naval force has an insufficient number of large-scale and advanced landing ships and lacks such indispensable ship varieties as amphibious assault ships and dock landing ships. China's current amphibious landing capability is largely restricted to the several Yuting and Yukan-class landing ships. The PLAN's amphibious fleet provides sealift sufficient to transport approximately one infantry division. The PLAN also has hundreds of smaller landing craft, barges, and troop transports, all of which could be used together with fishing boats, trawlers, and civilian merchant ships to augment the naval amphibious fleet. Shortcomings in long-range lift, logistics, and air support, however, hinders China's ability to project amphibious forces."

you were saying?

re: #115 redc1c4

you might try actually *reading* my ideas as written, without filtering them through your preconceived notions, and then comment on whatever points you have issues with, rather than continuing to argue points i never made.

it would certainly make learned discourse easier on both ends.
you'd understand my point, and i'd have a clue what you were objecting to.

Okay, stop thinking nonsense that logistics are the bane of armor, they're the life blood.

/[insert Patton quote here], still true today

The ROP's Algerian chapter is having a busy week

re: #98 Killian Bundy

Look about 1400 miles the other direction from Beijing- the Muslims in Xinjiang are getting nervous.

re: #122 Killian Bundy

Um to step up to the plate here for red. That's essentially what he's been saying. Also it's the largest and easiest way to beat them. If you cut the logistics train you no longer have tanks.

/okay guys stop fighting and shake hands.
//fruitcup is almost here, lets try to be civil for littleoldlady.

re: #121 redc1c4

some crow:
"China's naval force has an insufficient number of large-scale and advanced landing ships and lacks such indispensable ship varieties as amphibious assault ships and dock landing ships. China's current amphibious landing capability is largely restricted to the several Yuting and Yukan-class landing ships. The PLAN's amphibious fleet provides sealift sufficient to transport approximately one infantry division. The PLAN also has hundreds of smaller landing craft, barges, and troop transports, all of which could be used together with fishing boats, trawlers, and civilian merchant ships to augment the naval amphibious fleet. Shortcomings in long-range lift, logistics, and air support, however, hinders China's ability to project amphibious forces."

you were saying?

For starters, it's plenty good if we don't intervene.

/another thing you're not grokking is that Taiwan already has a pro-China government installed and the U.S. has a "one China" policy

re: #118 Killian Bundy

What'd I say, sheesh.

/well illustrated

so you support the russian extortion, and suggest the Georgia, and the other countries involved should just "lie back and enjoy it"

re: #119 itellu3times

Or because the whole thing is a rogue operation by Putin not supported by the sane parts of the Russian military.

the sane parts of the russian military sent second rate equipment so that if we were smart/ballsy enough to slam the door, all they were out was obsolete crap.

re: #125 BlueCanuck

Um to step up to the plate here for red. That's essentially what he's been saying. Also it's the largest and easiest way to beat them. If you cut the logistics train you no longer have tanks.

/okay guys stop fighting and shake hands.
//fruitcup is almost here, lets try to be civil for littleoldlady.

good thing i took some time off to w*rk on it, eh?

re: #129 redc1c4

Why do you think I have been so quiet? I have been rectifing your improvements tonight, yet again. :)

/So much w*rk, and I am so tired.

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ----------------->
Help yourselves!

Send the submarines thru the Bosporus - sink the Russian ships.

Or not.

re: #127 redc1c4

so you support the russian extortion, and suggest the Georgia, and the other countries involved should just "lie back and enjoy it"

You talk a lot of [expletive deleted].

/and no, we're not going to launch B-2 or any other airstrikes against Russia

those in the 'know' aren't talking All I am saying is be worried and keep the gun powder dry so to speak.

re: #122 Killian Bundy

Okay, stop thinking nonsense that logistics are the bane of armor, they're the life blood.

/[insert Patton quote here], still true today

hence my desire to put a chokehold on them, and what better way to do it than by cutting the LOC's to the AO.

i've run LOGPACS for a mech/armored force. i *know* what the weaknesses are. why attack tanks when their fuel trucks are unarmed and unarmored?

re: #130 BlueCanuck

Why do you think I have been so quiet? I have been rectifing your improvements tonight, yet again. :)

/So much w*rk, and I am so tired.

and all on the wrong fruitcups....

/po you..... %-)

re: #134 yochanan

yochanan! :-)

Would you kindly wait until I have another cup of coffee before you scare the bejeebers outta me?

/what are you talking about?

re: #131 littleoldlady

Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™

Fruitcup is on the buffet ----------------->
Help yourselves!

MUST BE THE SOUND OF LIZARDS 'FRESSENING' and not the empty debate on the future.

MM-mm! This spiked plastic fruitcup is great!

/spits out molar

re: #132 RTLM

Send the submarines thru the Bosporus - sink the Russian ships.

Or not.

why is everyone so insistent on direct confrontation with the russians?

especially when there is no need.........

"all we are saying is give asymmetrical warfare a chance.. "

/no apologies to John Lennon. %-)

re: #139 Fenway_Nation

You must be tired. Those were the placeholders/picture models you grabbed. Look for the ones that slosh a little.

littleoldlady

Could I have a blueberry muffin? It's been awhile since I've been here. Does any of the old people still come around.

re: #138 yochanan

'FRESSENING'

World class FRESSING? ;-)

Fenway! :-)

BlueCanuck! :-)

red! :-)

Killian! :-)

RTLM! :-)

/scrolls up further...

re: #131 littleoldlady

Up late again.

Eevrybody else is talking about invading Georgia or something, and all I want is a light snack before I go to bed.

Thanks, littloldlady.

On nights like this, maybe you should put something in the fruitcup.

/ritalin?

re: #142 tommoon

Hey, tommoon! :-)

Long time no type to! Which old people (aside from me ;-) are you looking for?

re: #137 littleoldlady

some are having the maximum vs minimum debate on tactics and i am coming into this with a I DON'T KNOW but with the boy scout option

re: #135 redc1c4

hence my desire to put a chokehold on them, and what better way to do it than by cutting the LOC's to the AO.

i've run LOGPACS for a mech/armored force. i *know* what the weaknesses are. why attack tanks when their fuel trucks are unarmed and unarmored?

You've got to physically get behind them first. You're going to start lighting up Russian fuel trucks?

/better say a prayer for the Russian drivers, their relatives take that [expletive deleted] more seriously than we do

thelongblogger! :-)

I thought Georgia was ALREADY invaded!

/can't they find a new place!?

littleoldlady

Waydowninmexico, does he still visit.

re: #149 tommoon

rarely because of illness he had a stroke

re: #146 yochanan

Aha! :-)

I never know what they are talking about when they "talk army".

/I figure I'll just cater the war and the big boys will take care of the pesky details for me...
;-)

re: #133 Killian Bundy

You talk a lot of [expletive deleted].

/and no, we're not going to launch B-2 or any other airstrikes against Russia

i'll type this slowly, so you can understand, this time, maybe:

i say we should strike Georgian roads, bridges and tunnels at the direct request of the Georgian government, our ally. specifically target/time strikes to *not* hit russian troops who are in the areas illegally. all strikes to occur from Georgian airspace, and without even approaching, let alone violating, russian airspace, territory, or coastal waters. this will cut the currently deployed russian troops off from logistical support, and render their current deployments logistically unsupportable.

the vehicles will have to be abandoned in place, but the troops can walk home to the Rodina. no muss, no fuss, and minimal casulaties all around. certainly no direct confrontation between us & the russians, and no grounds for nuclear saber rattling, since territorial integrity was never breached, nor blood shed.....

/you wee saying?

re: #148 littleoldlady

You ask them!

/I'm going to bed. Good night and thanks for the fruitcup.

'Night, thelongblogger! :-)

re: #149 tommoon

We're very worried about Miguel. :-(

yochanan

Sorry to here that. I remember the first night he appeared on LGF. Littleoldlady was ready to deny any furitcups to anyone who caused him trouble. He fit right in though.

re: #155 littleoldlady

We're very worried about Miguel. :-(

Me too.

(waves)

Shouldn't they have thought of that before Killian, that's a pretty lame excuse - their relatives?

re: #147 Killian Bundy

You've got to physically get behind them first. You're going to start lighting up Russian fuel trucks?

/better say a prayer for the Russian drivers, their relatives take that [expletive deleted] more seriously than we do

all we have to do is cut the roads. they go through mountains. you *have* driven in mountains before, haven't you? imagine how easy it would be to block a mountain road with a few pounds of explosive at the right place. now imagine how much easier it would be if you were to use the DOT maps of where the rockfall problems were and could target a 500 to 2000 pound bomb into the same slide area, with a delay fuse.

look mom, no road.

re: #128 redc1c4

the sane parts of the russian military sent second rate equipment so that if we were smart/ballsy enough to slam the door, all they were out was obsolete crap.

Maybe Putin simply bribed his way to the troops, and that's all he could afford.

I'll put Miguel in my prayers,. Time for my bed. I just wanted to hear from my old friends. I may not be around much, but you are still on my mind.

re: #159 redc1c4

If it's such a good idea, it could probably be done by a few dozen Georgian sappers.

re: #156 tommoon

I may have mellowed out since then.

a/k/a This Old Age S*cks

'Night, tommoon. Good to see you again! :-)

if i had the 'real' answers i would not be sitting in my BVD'S carving a wood cut and typing on line.

and yes Miguel is missed.

re: #163 littleoldlady

I may have mellowed out since then.

a/k/a This Old Age S*cks

it is better than the alternative I might ad>

re: #152 redc1c4

/you wee saying?

The Russians will be out of Georgia in about two weeks, after they've established a supervised military buffer zone, to their satisfaction. And South Ossetia and Abkhazia aren't going to ever be part of Georgia Agna, although Russia won't insist on redrawing the world map because those two provinces haven't been realistically part of Georgia for more than the last two decades.

/and your faerie talk won't change the facts on the ground one bit, deal with it

re: #160 itellu3times

Maybe Putin simply bribed his way to the troops, and that's all he could afford.

doesn't seem likely, but who knows.... russia is a strange place these days.

most likely scenario is that is what was handy, and they didn't want to move top of the line AFV's which might alert people stuff was happening.

the side effect of not losing anything really valuable had to have occurred to the staff, since most anyone i know of over the rank of e-4/5 here in the US would have figured it out too. anyone that couldn't see that as a prospective outcome shouldn't even get plastic army men and tanks to play with in the yard, let alone command Soldiers.

re: #162 itellu3times

If it's such a good idea, it could probably be done by a few dozen Georgian sappers.

getting there now is an issue. why they didn't have a GOTH plan is beyond my pay grade, even when i was in. my guess is there was politics involved.

re: #159 redc1c4

all we have to do is cut the roads. they go through mountains. you *have* driven in mountains before, haven't you? imagine how easy it would be to block a mountain road with a few pounds of explosive at the right place. now imagine how much easier it would be if you were to use the DOT maps of where the rockfall problems were and could target a 500 to 2000 pound bomb into the same slide area, with a delay fuse.

The Russians will fight back.

/that's the part you refuse to accept

re: #167 Killian Bundy

The Russians will be out of Georgia in about two weeks, after they've established a supervised military buffer zone, to their satisfaction. And South Ossetia and Abkhazia aren't going to ever be part of Georgia Agna, although Russia won't insist on redrawing the world map because those two provinces haven't been realistically part of Georgia for more than the last two decades.

/and your faerie talk won't change the facts on the ground one bit, deal with it

IOW, you have nothing.

and if they don't? then what.......what will you give up then to make them happy and comply?

OIL PIPELINES THAT BYPASS RUSSIA

/this is getting surreal

re: #160 itellu3times

re: #128 redc1c4

the sane parts of the russian military sent second rate equipment so that if we were smart/ballsy enough to slam the door, all they were out was obsolete crap.

Maybe Putin simply bribed his way to the troops, and that's all he could afford.

Bearded irregular$$

Just saw this on the Turkish news and internetted it. It seems that Turkey is going to deny passage through the Bosphorous to US ships carrying aid and hospital ships. Personally, I thought that under NATO they had to allow this. This current government has gotten way out of hand and its really time for them to go!
As far as turkey worrying about its relationship with Russia, the only things Russian I have seen here have been tourists,hookers, and natural gas. They can find them elsewhere.Maybe its time for the US to look for allies elsewhere in the region (Bulgaria).
Turkey Once Again Says “Nyet” To Allowing Passage To U.S.

Most media speculation about of a Chinese move against Taiwan omits a very important consideration: the Taiwanese armed forces, or Republic of China (Nationalist) armed forces on Taiwan (as they are officially called to this day). This is a serious error, and one that PLA planners and generals are not likely to make. This perhaps explains why they have not yet made their move.

With reserves, the Nationalists can put over a million people under arms and a thriving defense industry and they have had 60 years to dig in. Training standards are rigorous and the officer corps is highly professional.
They have thousands of missiles, from TOWs (very handy against landing craft as well as tanks) to state-of-the-art SAMs and masses of older missiles that can still do the job against a mainland invasion. The coasts are honeycombed with fortifications, there are thousands of artillery pieces and they are precisely zeroed on every square centimeter of every beach. Taiwanese pilots are among the best in the world and they have consistently proven this over the last 60 years.

To the media and, hence, the popular imagination, this force does not exist; so naturally many will assume that a PLA assault would be a walkover.

It is more likely to become the "million man swim."

re: #170 Killian Bundy

The Russians will fight back.

/that's the part you refuse to accept

where? how? and under what grounds?

the B-2's will be long gone. they can't send more troops, except via air or sea. aerial insertion leaves those lovely large cargo planes flying low, slow & level over flat terrain, or, to put in vulgar terms, an "ADA gunners dream". that leaves the sea, and their amphib capability is right up there with the chicoms. the WIG's are cute, but there are only so many, and they are vulnerable to a variety of simple weapons..... you were saying?

re: #171 redc1c4

IOW, you have nothing.

and if they don't? then what.......what will you give up then to make them happy and comply?

Okay, truce, how about we continue to monitor the U.S. and Russian interaction for the next two weeks and see.

/you can't get South Ossetia and Abkhazia back and expect a buffer zone in Georgia proper, that's what we've already agreed to, diplomatically

re: #175 shiplord kirel

the million man drown. it would be less painful for the PLA to simply march it's troops into the water from their beaches. the end result would be the same, and they wouldn't have to try & offset all the pictures/video of their failure.

Solzhenitsyn never wrote about that cross story that McCain supposedly plagiarized

The Dhimmocrat "swiftboat" attack fizzles. But come on, the Left just know, in their heart of hearts, a story about faith in a higher power* helping a man overrcome a terrible ordeal just has to be bogus. Like, a cross? Get real!

*And no, Obama's belief in the wisdom & bankroll of George Soros, isn't the same thing.

re: #176 redc1c4

Conventional B-2 strikes will not subdue the Russians!

/or whatever other conventional air superiority attempts you're dreaming about

re: #177 Killian Bundy

Okay, truce, how about we continue to monitor the U.S. and Russian interaction for the next two weeks and see.

/you can't get South Ossetia and Abkhazia back and expect a buffer zone in Georgia proper, that's what we've already agreed to, diplomatically

because i'm not interested in the status quo or a revitalized, still rambunctious russia. i want them kicked in the crotch and a pool cue broken over their head before they are taken over to the door and tossed in the horse tough to s*ber up.

they are *not* 10 feet tall, and they don't have giant brass balls. it's time they learned that at an instinctual level. if we don't apply the lesson now, we will have to do it later, at a higher cost, and likely without a non-confrontational method to do so. i'm not interested in fighting them, i just want them to learn they're not Godzilla, and that we're not afraid of them.

re: #174 baconeatingkaffir

Just saw this on the Turkish news and internetted it. It seems that Turkey is going to deny passage through the Bosphorous to US ships carrying aid and hospital ships. Personally, I thought that under NATO they had to allow this. This current government has gotten way out of hand and its really time for them to go!
As far as turkey worrying about its relationship with Russia, the only things Russian I have seen here have been tourists,hookers, and natural gas. They can find them elsewhere.Maybe its time for the US to look for allies elsewhere in the region (Bulgaria).
Turkey Once Again Says “Nyet” To Allowing Passage To U.S.

Sort of a reverse Montreux Convention

The Montreux Convention Regarding the Regime of the Turkish Straits was a 1936 agreement that gives Turkey control over the Bosporus Straits and the Dardanelles and regulates military activity in the region. Signed on 20 July 1936, it permitted Turkey to remilitarise the Straits and imposed new restrictions on the passage of combatant vessels. It is still in force today, with some amendments.

The Convention gives Turkey full control over the Straits and guarantees the free passage of civilian vessels in peacetime. It severely restricts the passage of non-Turkish military vessels and prohibits some types of warships, such as aircraft carriers, from passing through the Straits. The terms of the convention have been the source of controversy over the years, most notably concerning the Soviet Union's military access to the Mediterranean Sea.

What about subs?

(specifically)

re: #181 redc1c4

How about we shut down their oil exports for them?

Just noodling.

re: #175 shiplord kirel

To the media and, hence, the popular imagination, this force does not exist; so naturally many will assume that a PLA assault would be a walkover.

They have more than exactly the same problem Seoul has, mass civilian casualties.

/think about it

re: #179 Kenneth

Kenneth! :-)

I musta missed that. They've accused McCain of plagiarism?

/same guys who may be naming Biden as VP today?

pimf- US submarines.

re: #152 redc1c4

You don't have to close the mountain roads to trap the Russian armor. Georgians can use anti-tank mines or javelin anti-tank missiles to take out a big tank. That tends to stop traffic for miles behind. To do that, the Georgians also need stingers to keep the Russian helicopter gunships away. If the US provides these & a few other key weapons, then the Russians will find Georgia a very bad place to be.

Good Morning room...

'Fill the Jails' campaign taken by Kashmiri Hindus ... as Indian government, and Main stream media is buys in Muslim appeasement .....

also featuring ..

Hindu Indians and Srilankans will be made slaves to work for Pakistani Muslims; Little bit of terror had to be applied to the heart of Hindus and Christians...

re: #187 Kenneth

You don't have to close the mountain roads to trap the Russian armor. Georgians can use anti-tank mines or javelin anti-tank missiles to take out a big tank. That tends to stop traffic for miles behind. To do that, the Georgians also need stingers to keep the Russian helicopter gunships away. If the US provides these & a few other key weapons, then the Russians will find Georgia a very bad place to be.

The Russian's Caucasus supply line will shut come Winter.

(October)

re: #180 Killian Bundy

Conventional B-2 strikes will not subdue the Russians!

/or whatever other conventional air superiority attempts you're dreaming about

why not? a bolded sentence does not a convincing argument make.
besides, i was, as i said before many times, advocating an asymmetrical approach. you simply refuse to grasp the concept.

furthermore, as before, you continue to mischaracterize my statements:

i said *nothing* about "subduing" the russians. i simply said we should cut them off from their logistical support. hunger, thirst and a general lack of supplies will do the rest for us.

you've never read Sun Tzu, have you? %-)

re: #183 itellu3times

How about we shut down their oil exports for them?

Just noodling.

why do that ?(assuming you mean russia) that's a direct attack, and gives them grounds for further confrontation, plus it drives the world price up. best thing we can do right now is drive the price down, every way we can, to cut hard currency going into their coffers.

re: #189 RTLM

The Russian's Caucasus supply line will shut come Winter.

(October)

You forget that they have seized the Georgian Black Sea port. Russians have lots of experience with starvation and bringing in supplies by water.

re: #185 littleoldlady

It started as a Daily Kos diary, then Andrew Sullivan picked it up. Somebody alleged that McCain got the "cross in the dirt story" from Solzhenitsyn. But nobody actually pointed to the specific quote from Solzhenitsyn where it was supposedly stolen from. Now a professor, who wrote a biography on late great Russian writer, has stated the story appears nowhere in any of his books. Also, a former POW who shared a cell with McCain said he recalls McCain telling him about the incident when they were in Hanoi.

Ironically, this Democrat attack on McCain has only served to underline his heroism. Bring it on...

re: #191 redc1c4

why do that ?(assuming you mean russia) that's a direct attack, and gives them grounds for further confrontation, plus it drives the world price up. best thing we can do right now is drive the price down, every way we can, to cut hard currency going into their coffers.

Not to mention that they supply about 40% of Europes gas and oil. Europe would go absolutely bonkers.

re: #184 Killian Bundy

They have more than exactly the same problem Seoul has, mass civilian casualties.

/think about it

better dead than red.

is there anything you'll defend?

(besides our enemies, that is. %-)

re: #181 redc1c4

because i'm not interested in the status quo or a revitalized, still rambunctious russia. i want them kicked in the crotch and a pool cue broken over their head before they are taken over to the door and tossed in the horse tough to s*ber up.

they are *not* 10 feet tall, and they don't have giant brass balls. it's time they learned that at an instinctual level. if we don't apply the lesson now, we will have to do it later, at a higher cost, and likely without a non-confrontational method to do so. i'm not interested in fighting them, i just want them to learn they're not Godzilla, and that we're not afraid of them.

Well, then let's JUST DO IT!

At the beginning of 2008 the Russian strategic forces included 682 strategic delivery platforms, which can carry up to 3100 nuclear warheads. The Strategic Rocket Forces have 430 operational missile systems of four types that can carry 1605 warheads. The strategic fleet includes 14 strategic missile submarines. Their 173 missiles can carry 611 nuclear warheads. Strategic aviation bomber force consists of 79 bombers that can carry up to 884 long-range cruise missiles. The space-based tier of the early warning system included three satellites that appear operational--two on highly elliptical orbits and one on a geostationary orbit.

/I don't share your MAD death wish, maybe you like

re: #190 redc1c4

COld War Rules still apply. The US will NEVER send in US troops, fighter jets or bombers to attack Russian assets. No direct conflict will happen. The fighting will be run through proxies, in this case, the Georgians.

re: #192 galloping granny

You forget that they have seized the Georgian Black Sea port. Russians have lots of experience with starvation and bringing in supplies by water.

unfortunately for them, they don't have a lot of assets to do that with.

and a few javelins would help with that equation. %-)

re: #189 RTLM

That's my guess. The longer the Russian's stay, the worse it will go for them. Time is on Georgia's side.

re: #187 Kenneth

You don't have to close the mountain roads to trap the Russian armor. Georgians can use anti-tank mines or javelin anti-tank missiles to take out a big tank. That tends to stop traffic for miles behind. To do that, the Georgians also need stingers to keep the Russian helicopter gunships away. If the US provides these & a few other key weapons, then the Russians will find Georgia a very bad place to be.

And the Russians cut in half and occupied more than half the country in in less than four days.

/what world do you people live in?

re: #192 galloping granny

You forget that they have seized the Georgian Black Sea port. Russians have lots of experience with starvation and bringing in supplies by water.

Hoo Boy! Start at #23

:)

re: #131 littleoldlady

Good Morning!

re: #198 redc1c4

unfortunately for them, they don't have a lot of assets to do that with.

and a few javelins would help with that equation. %-)

they do have more assets than anyone else in the Black Sea with the sole possible exception of Turkey. Turkey controls the Bosphorus and will not even allow our hospital ship to pass through to treat the Georgian wounded.

re: #198 redc1c4

unfortunately for them, they don't have a lot of assets to do that with.

and a few javelins would help with that equation. %-)

Linky?

/I've shot Javelins in cyberspace, get a lock (takes a long time), shoot, rocket goes skyward, comes down on top of the vehicle with a devastating vengeance, can't shoot 'em from cover

re: #201 RTLM

Hoo Boy! Start at #23

:)

Turkey is not going to confront the Russian navy. Nor are they going to allow us to. For all intents and purposes, Russia has a free hand to bring supplies into Georgia by water.

re: #196 Killian Bundy

/I don't share your MAD death wish, maybe you like [Link: www.youtube.com...]

yawn...... same old tired dog, sitting up on the smae old prch, and it still can't hunt.

1. in my scenario, russian sovereignty was never breached nor challenged, so they have no grounds, nor pressing national interest to turn their country into an atomic wasteland. you ignore that because it inherently defeats your argument.

as for:
At the beginning of 2008 the Russian strategic forces included 682 strategic delivery platforms, which can carry up to 3100 nuclear warheads.

The Strategic Rocket Forces have 430 operational missile systems of four types that can carry 1605 warheads.

which may or may not w*rk given russian proclivities regarding PMCS and general piss poor funding of their military. not to be sneezed at, but not all that and a bag of chips.

The strategic fleet includes 14 strategic missile submarines. Their 173 missiles can carry 611 nuclear warheads.

which last went to sea when? were last without a Los Angeles class on their ass when they did?

Strategic aviation bomber force consists of 79 bombers that can carry up to 884 long-range cruise missiles. make that 78: the Georgians shot down a Backfire. they're dead long before they get to launch point.

The space-based tier of the early warning system included three satellites that appear operational--two on highly elliptical orbits and one on a geostationary orbit.

crap, just like everything else.

yes, they have nukes. yes, they can get some of them to CONUS, if they really wanted to. no, they don't have a credible force, and no, we aren't facing nuclear annihilation if we cut few roads in Georgia the other, especially if we never violate russian territorial integrity.

re: #184 Killian Bundy

They have more than exactly the same problem Seoul has, mass civilian casualties.

/think about it

I have thought about it, especially when I was going through one of the frequent civil defense drills in Taipei.

No part of Taiwan is within artillery range of the mainland. Assuming they aren't nukes, even several thousand missiles are not going to have much effect on millions of buildings, especially when each missile detailed for a terror strike is one less for use against military objectives (of which there are a great many for the PLA to worry about). The entire payload of even 5000 MRBMs is equal to about 100 B-52 or B-1 sorties. Would we assume that a hundred bomber sorties would induce a nation of millions to surrender? Not if we are sane, and there is no reason to suppose that mainland leaders are crazy either. For its part, the PLA air force does not have a survivable heavy bomber force for saturation attacks on cities, and their fighters will be hard-pressed to maintain control of the airspace over their own embarkation ports, let alone go out strafing and bombing at random in a lethal air defense environment.

In any case, I do not believe that terroristic threats against the population will induce the Taiwanese government to surrender. The Chinese Nationalists loathe the communists and the Taiwanese nationalists will not surrender all hope of independence, at least not without a fight that they know will probably go their way. Remember, the mass bombardment of Quemoy and Matsu, up to 100,000 rounds per day, did not force the surrender of those islands.

Finally, the PLA cannot use its own nuclear weapons without inviting instant retaliation from the US, or perhaps even from Taiwan itself.

re: #197 Kenneth

COld War Rules still apply. The US will NEVER send in US troops, fighter jets or bombers to attack Russian assets. No direct conflict will happen. The fighting will be run through proxies, in this case, the Georgians.

one more time for the cheap seats: who's talking about attacking the russians? i'm simply in favor of causing a few landslides on otherwise empty roads. .....

let the Georgians have all the rest.

re: #203 galloping granny

they do have more assets than anyone else in the Black Sea with the sole possible exception of Turkey. Turkey controls the Bosphorus and will not even allow our hospital ship to pass through to treat the Georgian wounded.

they're not stopping our aircraft..... and they're more than one way into the area.

re: #209 redc1c4

one more time for the cheap seats: who's talking about attacking the russians? i'm simply in favor of causing a few landslides on otherwise empty roads. .....

let the Georgians have all the rest.

/gee, maybe you should back up an read your own comments

So, I wonder when John McCain's new Brittany ad is going to come out, because it is really, really, really throwing Obama well off his game and making him look like a petulant fool. Look at this -

[Link: elections.foxnews.com...]

RALEIGH, N.C. — A combative Barack Obama said Tuesday that Republican John McCain “doesn’t know what he’s up against” in this election and challenged his rival to stop questioning his character and patriotism.

Obama, campaigning in a state where he hopes to become the first Democratic presidential candidate to win in more than three decades, implored his supporters to fight for the presidency.

“Our job in this election is not just ‘win,’ although I’m a big believer in winning,” Obama said during the rally. “I don’t intend to lose this election. John McCain doesn’t know what he’s up against.”

“He can talk all he wants about Britney (Spears) and Paris (Hilton), but I don’t have time for that mess,” Obama said.

I wonder why he is spending time on that mess if he doesn't have time for it?

Time for another jab, John!

re: #200 Killian Bundy

The real world. Did you notice what didn't happen during the Russian invasian? There was no pitched battle, & the Russians failed to bag the Georgian army. In a head-to-head battle, the Russians would win. In a protracted guerilla war, IF the Georgians get the weapons they need, the Russian's will loose. It would be bloody & dirty, but the Georgians can bleed the Russians white.

re: #210 redc1c4

they're not stopping our aircraft..... and they're more than one way into the area.

Of course not. I was pointing out that even if the tunnels into Mother Russia somehow miraculously collapse with winter coming on, the Russians are not trapped in a modern version of the Germans at Stalingrad. They can bring in all the stuff they need by water. Or simply steal it from the Georgians, who we will provide with more.

re: #209 redc1c4

I know waht you're saying, & it sounds good to me, but there won't be any direct US fighting, & that includes bombing mountain passes. The Georgians will have to do it themselves.

re: #211 Killian Bundy

/gee, maybe you should back up an read your own comments

maybe you should try reading for comprehension rather than self fulfilling prophecy.......

cutting roads inside an ally's border, at their request, when said roads are unoccupied is an attack on russia how?

/take your time.

(you'll need it. %-)

re: #208 Shiplord Kirel

I said they'd lose. They may not think so, over Taiwan.

/and that the casualties would be more that we can bear, politically

re: #202 FamHistoryGuy

Hai! :-)

re: #213 ploome hineni

doesn;t he correspond with anyone online?

What happened with Miguel, anyway?

re: #213 ploome hineni

Not with me, and I email him nearly every day. :-(

realwest has his phone number...

ploome! :-)

re: #215 galloping granny

Of course not. I was pointing out that even if the tunnels into Mother Russia somehow miraculously collapse with winter coming on, the Russians are not trapped in a modern version of the Germans at Stalingrad. They can bring in all the stuff they need by water. Or simply steal it from the Georgians, who we will provide with more.

there's only so many water points of entry, and there isn't enough to steal. after all, if we're bringing in supplies, why not Class V first? %-)

re: #208 Shiplord Kirel
I'd be very surpirsed if Taiwan/ ROK does not have nukes. It will be a messy day if we ever find out.

Morning all. Still no veep for Barry?

re: #216 Kenneth

I know waht you're saying, & it sounds good to me, but there won't be any direct US fighting, & that includes bombing mountain passes. The Georgians will have to do it themselves.

which is bad for us. it's non-confrontational at the macro level, but damn good PR at the local level. your basic win-win.

re: #223 ploome hineni

he may have had a stroke

hi littleoldlady..:D

He may have has more than one... :-(

Don't know if you guys have seen this...

Georgian Girl "Shut Up" by Fox News

I put that title because of my friends showing me the video and commenting about how "dirty" and "evil" Fox News is. Hilarious.

re: #214 Kenneth

True, but there won't be much left of Tbilisi. Sort of like Grozny.

HAD.

/too much lolcats!

My Rove! :-)

L8r.... gotta go help an ex move in a few hours.....

/teaching pigs to sing is *so* tiring. %-)

re: #226 littleoldlady

More than one? Do you mean he had a relapse? Please say it ain't so. :(

re: #223 ploome hineni

he may have had a stroke

hi littleoldlady..:D

Oh no! I thought he had just gone away because the last time I saw him he was very upset over the way some people were talking about the Catholic church. When did this happen ploome?

re: #226 littleoldlady

He may have has more than one... :-(

i hope not... he was doing so well.

/champagne wishes

Here's something I didn't know:

Kinmen knives

These are souvenir knives made on Kinmen (Quemoy) from the remains of artillery shells fired at the island.

Its morning already?

re: #214 Kenneth

The real world. Did you notice what didn't happen during the Russian invasian? There was no pitched battle, & the Russians failed to bag the Georgian army.

/really, 20 more, blindfolded and off to somewhere

{littleoldlady}
Daughter is back from the JHU camp. Had a great time. She missed us and we missed her so everyone is happy she is home.

re: #224 Jim in Virginia

I'd be very surpirsed if Taiwan/ ROK does not have nukes. It will be a messy day if we ever find out.

Morning all. Still no veep for Barry?

Yup. They have as much engineering experience as the Japanese do. Estimates are that the Japanese could build high end nukes and have them rolling off the assembly line in under three weeks. Some estimates go as low as just one week.

"More than one" is speculation on my (and realwest's) part.

It appeared as though he was doing well. Then it seems he got worse. Then...he disappeared completely.

:-(

re: #235 ploome hineni

she is obviously an ethnic Russian from Georgia

I am sure the Germans in Poland were happy when Hitler invaded

If I remember correctly, didn't the video say she was from North Ossetia? And isn't North Ossetia a Russian stronghold?

re: #240 galloping granny

Yup. They have as much engineering experience as the Japanese do. Estimates are that the Japanese could build high end nukes and have them rolling off the assembly line in under three weeks. Some estimates go as low as just one week.

My guess is 48 hours for an operational free-fall bomb, assuming that shaped cores are not already available.

re: #239 Jim in Virginia

You're is back and mine is leaving tomorrow for school.

She's telling me that I'll miss her.

/translation: She'll miss ME. ;-)

re: #242 TheMatrix31

If I remember correctly, didn't the video say she was from North Ossetia? And isn't North Ossetia a Russian stronghold?

Yes, North Ossetia is still part of Mother Russia.

PAPER TIGER

re: #228 Jim in Virginia

That is a major risk. They will have to take out those missile launchers the Russians moved into South Ossetia.

re: #243 Shiplord Kirel

My guess is 48 hours for an operational free-fall bomb, assuming that shaped cores are not already available.

And I bet every time the Norks start saber rattling the Japanese very quietly check the production schedule.

re: #230 redc1c4

L8r.... gotta go help an ex move in a few hours.....

/teaching pigs to sing is *so* tiring. %-)

MUD WRESTLING is OK if it is on pay per view on a hog farm not so much.

re: #237 Killian Bundy

20 soldiers is not the bulk of the Georgian army. Get real.

re: #247 yochanan

PAPER TIGER

/let's hope so, all our enemies

re: #249 ploome hineni

Last year she was in NY. This year she's 20-30 minutes away.

/I'm good. ;-)