LGF

 RetweetRoP Kills 59 in Pakistan

Thu, Aug 21, 2008 at 9:13:21 am PDT

Suicide bombers struck at a weapons complex in Pakistan that some think may be engaged in nuclear weapons development: Suicide bombing at Pakistan arms complex kills 59.

WAH, Pakistan - Twin Taliban suicide bombings at Pakistan’s largest weapons complex killed at least 59 people Thursday, heightening the turmoil following Pervez Musharraf’s ouster as president.

The bombers struck two different gates of the government weapons complex just as workers were leaving. The complex, comprising 12 factories, is located in Wah, a garrison city 20 miles west of the capital, Islamabad.

Army spokesman Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas said the perimeter is guarded by a dedicated paramilitary force. Experts have suggested that facilities related to Pakistan’s secretive nuclear weapons program are located in the Wah area, possibly including a uranium enrichment plant. Abbas insisted the complex attacked on Thursday was producing only conventional weapons.

And just to make things even more interesting, the Islamist ruling coalition that drove Pervez Musharraf out of power is now collapsing.

The ruling coalition, made up of traditional rivals who were united primarily in their determination to force Musharraf from office, meanwhile appeared to be veering toward collapse. The two main parties have been unable to bridge key differences such as whether judges fired by Musharraf should be quickly reinstated and who should succeed him as president.

Pakistanis have urged the civilian government to stop bickering and turn quickly to tackling the country’s problems from an economic downturn to extremist violence in the volatile northwest, where fighting between security forces and Islamic militants has escalated in recent weeks.

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290 comments

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1 zombie  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:15:48am

Glad the Islamists can't agree on anything.

2 SpiritOf1683  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:16:07am

It is now 63 dead. I notice the US is getting a 'great return of investment' on its $30 billion aid package to Pakistan. Give money to Muslim countries and all you get is death and destruction for your wasted efforts. And whats more, it never ever gets appreciated.

3 zombie  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:16:24am

Better that they fight amongst themselves than get their fingers on the nuclear button.

4 Victrola  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:16:31am

I believe this is the very definition of 'clusterfuck'.

5 toadbelly  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:16:48am

I hate to be pessimistic, but I see a bloodbath in the future.

6 Dianna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:16:53am

That is extremely interesting. A suicide bomber attacking a possible nuclear facility? What's up with that?

7 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:16:53am

Another day another ROP mass murder. Ho hum they do make evil banal, must fight that feeling, All are humans in g-d's image.

8 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:16:56am

The strong man leaves.
RoP attempts to terrorize the population into submission.

9 rabidsquirrel  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:16:57am

re: #1 zombie

Glad the Islamists can't agree on anything.

They can, but only to the extent that they all concur with murdering infidels.

10 calvin coolidge  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:17:18am

CHANGE! It's 3AM. Do you know where your nuclear bomb is?

11 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:17:34am

Watch for the military to do something in the absence of a coalition government.

Sharif and Zardari can barely stand each other - and each can't stand Musharraf even less. If they can't put together a coalition government, the only group who can hold things together is the military, which means that instead of Musharraf, you've got another military strongman.

And Mehsud continues to exploit the situation with bombings.

12 SpiritOf1683  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:17:58am

re: #3 zombie

Better that they fight amongst themselves than get their fingers on the nuclear button.


The problem is - the winner gets its finger on the nuclear button.

13 Dianna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:18:05am

re: #5 toadbelly

It's why Pakistan constantly has coups "to restore order." Very sad.

14 toadbelly  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:18:28am

re: #11 lawhawk

that may be good news.

15 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:18:30am

Read that having kicked out Mushareff the corrupt Nawaz Sharif is now threatening to quit unless he can repack the courts.

16 Occasional Reader  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:18:34am

Charles! We were worried about you.

17 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:18:55am

re: #6 Dianna

That is extremely interesting. A suicide bomber attacking a possible nuclear facility? What's up with that?

Martyrdumb.

18 Pyrocles  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:18:56am

Sounds familiar. But this time, there's no U.S. military to keep the Islamists away.

re: #8 jcm

The strong man leaves.
RoP attempts to terrorize the population into submission.

19 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:19:45am
20 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:20:18am

No one to root for here. Can they all lose?

21 Ben Hur  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:20:46am
Thursday, heightening the turmoil following Pervez Musharraf’s ouster as president.

He was ousted?

22 OnTheRightSide  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:21:38am

And people thought Iraq was bad.

23 Iron Fist[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:22:33am
24 Shug  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:22:39am

Since the bombing only involved conventional weapons, this might actually still be within Obama's pay grade

25 OnTheRightSide  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:22:47am

re: #5 toadbelly

Pessimistic or realistic?

26 Shug  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:22:55am

OK, probably not

27 sattv4u2  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:23:10am

re: #24 Shug

Since the bombing only involved conventional weapons, this might actually still be within Obama's pay grade

He'll have to consult with Michelle and Gran-ma 1st

28 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:23:19am

When will the Left blame Pres. Bush? When will BHO blame Sen. McCain?

29 mj  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:23:23am

re: #2 SpiritOf1683

It is now 63 dead. I notice the US is getting a 'great return of investment' on its $30 billion aid package to Pakistan. Give money to Muslim countries and all you get is death and destruction for your wasted efforts. And whats more, it never ever gets appreciated.


Not only isn't it appreciated- almost no aid to Muslim countries is ever appreciated, the weapons will be used against the US or Western interests.
Just ask the Israelis how many of the rifles that the Israeli government gave the Palestinian police force were then employed against innocent Israeli civilians.

30 Iron Fist[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:23:45am
31 CIA Reject  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:23:46am

re: #8 jcm

The strong man leaves.
RoP attempts to terrorize the population into submission.

Power vacuums really suck...

32 Maine's Michael  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:23:54am

If they didn't have nukes, we justifiably wouldn't give a sh*t.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

What happens when Saudi gets its nukes, or even just the reactors we are going to sell them, and then falls to the fundamentalists, as it inevitably will.

Can you say 'dirty bomb'?

33 WitchDoctor  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:23:57am

I always get a warm and fuzzy when countries with nuclear weapons are so screwed up. I hope Iran gets one to bring some stability.

/

34 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:24:25am

re: #18 Pyrocles

Sounds familiar. But this time, there's no U.S. military to keep the Islamists away.

I just pray our security arrangements with Pakistan regarding the nucs includes an extrication arrangement.

35 Shug  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:24:25am

pahh-kee-stahn

/BHO

36 maddogg  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:24:31am

re: #24 Shug

Since the bombing only involved conventional weapons, this might actually still be within Obama's pay grade

Where does that phrase originate? Sounds like some union crapola used as an excuse to sit on your ass and do nothing.

37 Maximu§  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:24:47am

is now collapsing.

Not good news and Pakistan will now turn into a Hellhole of suicide bombers, shoot-outs on the streets, truck bombs, car bombs, RPG ambushes on government officials, beheadings, Shria Law being enforced, Slavery, corruption, kidnappings, extortion, Opium dealing, WMD being sold on the market...did I miss anything?

38 Russkilitlover  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:25:12am

re: #11 lawhawk

Watch for the military to do something in the absence of a coalition government.

Sharif and Zardari can barely stand each other - and each can't stand Musharraf even less. If they can't put together a coalition government, the only group who can hold things together is the military, which means that instead of Musharraf, you've got another military strongman.

And Mehsud continues to exploit the situation with bombings.

Which is pretty much how Musharraf came to power in the first place. Into such chaos can Islamists gain complete control.

39 opinionated  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:25:31am

Nuclear Pakistan disintegrating.

Russia invading a neighbor.

Iran heading for a nuclear ability.

Chavez with threats.

A Mideast war involving Israel a certainty in the next Administration.

And Americans can't make up their mind if a Liberal novice or a hero military man should be President.

Even as SoCons debate that pro life or pro choice will determine their vote.

We are so screwed.

40 Shug  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:25:36am

re: #37 Maximu§

is now collapsing.

Not good news and Pakistan will now turn into a Hellhole of suicide bombers, shoot-outs on the streets, truck bombs, car bombs, RPG ambushes on government officials, beheadings, Shria Law being enforced, Slavery, corruption, kidnappings, extortion, Opium dealing, WMD being sold on the market...did I miss anything?


you just described Paris

41 Maine's Michael  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:25:44am

re: #37 Maximu§

Yeah, you did.

At least it won't be run my a military dictator!

/Condi

42 rabidsquirrel  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:26:00am

re: #37 Maximu§

is now collapsing.

Not good news and Pakistan will now turn into a Hellhole of suicide bombers, shoot-outs on the streets, truck bombs, car bombs, RPG ambushes on government officials, beheadings, Shria Law being enforced, Slavery, corruption, kidnappings, extortion, Opium dealing, WMD being sold on the market...did I miss anything?

In other words, it will devolve into an Islamist paradise.

43 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:26:13am

re: #5 toadbelly

I hate to be pessimistic, but I see a bloodbath in the future.

Hopefully not our blood. But this situation is the definition of deadly.

44 CIA Reject  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:26:23am

re: #37 Maximu§

is now collapsing.

Not good news and Pakistan will now turn into a Hellhole of suicide bombers, shoot-outs on the streets, truck bombs, car bombs, RPG ambushes on government officials, beheadings, Shria Law being enforced, Slavery, corruption, kidnappings, extortion, Opium dealing, WMD being sold on the market...did I miss anything?

Nope, just your average ROP "paradise".

/Talibanistan re-loaded.

45 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:26:26am

Where will it end, this islamic bid for world power and the ability to tell everyone how to live their lives?

They will murder in the most heinous way to get this power.

What will stop them?

What will the world look like the day that they are finally stopped?

46 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:27:07am

re: #39 opinionated

Nuclear Pakistan disintegrating.

Russia invading a neighbor.

Iran heading for a nuclear ability.

Chavez with threats.

A Mideast war involving Israel a certainty in the next Administration.

And Americans can't make up their mind if a Liberal novice or a hero military man should be President.

Even as SoCons debate that pro life or pro choice will determine their vote.

We are so screwed.

No we're not, vote for McCain.

47 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:27:08am

re: #35 Shug

pahh-kee-stahn

/BHO

Be careful about about mocking Chicago accents. I'm from Chicago and I resent it.

48 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:27:12am

re: #31 CIA Reject

Power vacuums really suck...

LOL! very true.
As much as I hate it, when parties to the political process insistent on extreme violence as tools then I think a strong man can be the better option.

49 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:27:15am
Army spokesman Maj. Gen. Athar Abbas said the perimeter is guarded by a dedicated paramilitary force. Experts have suggested that facilities related to Pakistan’s secretive nuclear weapons program are located in the Wah area, possibly including a uranium enrichment plant.

Just one Friday Seethefest could swamp this defense in a human wave attack.

I just crapped my pants a little.

50 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:27:23am
51 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:27:46am

re: #37 Maximu§

is now collapsing.

Not good news and Pakistan will now turn into a Hellhole of suicide bombers, shoot-outs on the streets, truck bombs, car bombs, RPG ambushes on government officials, beheadings, Shria Law being enforced, Slavery, corruption, kidnappings, extortion, Opium dealing, WMD being sold on the market...did I miss anything?

Did you visit Chicago recently?

52 nyc redneck  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:27:53am

too many savages clinging to their korans.

53 Darwin Akbar  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:28:42am

This calls for more of that Tough Obama Diplomacy without Preconditions but with Extra Preparation.

54 OnTheRightSide  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:28:45am

I saw a news report after Musharraf left with Pakistanis dancing around and explaining how happy they were. I wonder how happy they are now.

55 amphibian  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:29:00am

So which of them's got the nukes? They can all hang themselves and each other otherwise (never had much control of the border with Afganistan anyway, I think), but I imagine we're all curious how the nuke situation will end up.

56 Maine's Michael  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:29:47am

re: #54 OnTheRightSide

I saw a news report after Musharraf left with Pakistanis dancing around and explaining how happy they were. I wonder how happy they are now.

Very happy. Fundamentalist dumbshits that they are.

57 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:30:18am

re: #51 Honorary Yooper

Did you visit Chicago recently?

We don't have RPGs here, nor Shaira Law being enforced. Give us some credit. Don't let the fact that BHO comes from here sour you completely.

58 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:30:20am

You gotta wonder how the Indians see all of this as it is just across the border, in a country who they have fought several times in the past 60 years. Delhi's got to be keeping a very close eye on the situation.

59 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:31:10am

The division of the Raj to create Pakistan to feed the vanity of Muhammed Ali Jinnah (a man with disturbing parallels to Obama in his personality and appearance) was a disaster. It may have made sense to divide India into 3 or four countries based on the old East India Company's Presidencies but the system used to hive off some Moslem bits and force almost everything else together was the worst possible choice. Millions died. At this point Pakistan probably should be divided between Afghanistan and India.

60 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:31:10am

re: #53 Darwin Akbar

This calls for more of that Tough Obama Diplomacy without Preconditions but with Extra Preparation.

Like surrendering preemptively?

61 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:31:21am

re: #14 toadbelly

There's little good news in that. The military has more Musharrafs where he came from. After all, Musharraf assumed power in a coup in 1999 - taking over for Sharif. Musharraf threw Sharif in prison, and Sharif had been hoping to return the favor, which is the real reason why Sharif was pushing for impeachment. It was nothing but plain old revenge.

Now Sharif and Zardari can barely agree on anything else, so you've got a stalemate. Mehsud continues to exploit the failures.

62 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:31:24am
63 maddogg  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:31:29am

They'll tar and feather Musharrif and ride him out of town on a rail, and then after 6 months of this "improvement" they will unanimously beg him to come back, and then give his motorcade a ticker tape parade of triumph on his way back in to stand in as "savior".

64 Maximu§  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:31:31am

re: #51 Honorary Yooper

Matt just called from Fort Knox...he said he got his uniform and "he Loves it". Then he hung up...guess he had only 30 seconds to talk, but it was good to hear his voice.

65 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:31:33am
66 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:31:41am

re: #57 Dark_Falcon

We don't have RPGs here, nor Shaira Law being enforced. Give us some credit. Don't let the fact that BHO comes from here sour you completely.

We have our own mafiosos in charge though.

/Don Daley.

67 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:31:41am

re: #37 Maximu§

is now collapsing.

Not good news and Pakistan will now turn into a Hellhole of suicide bombers, shoot-outs on the streets, truck bombs, car bombs, RPG ambushes on government officials, beheadings, Shria Law being enforced, Slavery, corruption, kidnappings, extortion, Opium dealing, WMD being sold on the market...did I miss anything?

In other words, Islam the way The Big Mo' wants it.

68 David Simon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:32:03am

re: #5 toadbelly

I hate to be pessimistic, but I see a bloodbath in the future.

Pessimistic or realistic? Notwithstanding leftist assertions to the contrary, we can't love our way out of this problem. There won't be peace until lots of Islamic savages are six feet under.

69 CIA Reject  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:32:12am

re: #48 jcm

LOL! very true.
As much as I hate it, when parties to the political process insistent on extreme violence as tools then I think a strong man can be the better option.

Unfortunately that may be the "lesser of two evils"- which is the only option available to provide stability when the parties in power are not willing to share power equitably.

That unwillingness to share power seems to be prevalent in islamist societies and, IMHO, it is the ace-in-the-hole that will allow us to win the war against islamism.

70 rabidsquirrel  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:32:15am

re: #58 Honorary Yooper

You gotta wonder how the Indians see all of this as it is just across the border, in a country who they have fought several times in the past 60 years. Delhi's got to be keeping a very close eye on the situation.

This also has direct implications for Kashmir. If the Islamists seize power, expect Kashmir to explode into an all-out war zone.

71 Russkilitlover  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:32:41am

Delhi can probably take a breath and adapt to the situation. The situation in Pakistan is akin to throwing raw meat into a hyena pack. It will last for a while, as they tear themselves to pieces.

72 Maximu§  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:32:49am

re: #51 Honorary Yooper

Did you visit Chicago recently?

No, but I heard the South Side of Chicago could give Northen Pakistan a run for their money.

73 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:32:54am

re: #64 Maximu§

Matt just called from Fort Knox...he said he got his uniform and "he Loves it". Then he hung up...guess he had only 30 seconds to talk, but it was good to hear his voice.

Good! I hope he does very well.

74 debutaunt  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:32:57am

re: #36 maddogg

Where does that phrase originate? Sounds like some union crapola used as an excuse to sit on your ass and do nothing.

That plus a nice supercilious feel to it.

75 Irene NYC  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:33:17am

re: #69 CIA Reject

Unless, of course, they manage to blow us to smithereens first.

76 esch  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:33:33am

re: #45 Ojoe

What will stop them?

Probably the only thing that could is an 'Anti-Mahdi' to take charge and reform Islam.

77 Sharku  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:34:23am

Algeria is in it's third day in a row of fatal bombings as well. The Religion of War is roaring this week.

78 Irene NYC  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:34:29am

re: #70 rabidsquirrel

Kashmir isn't the problem. Mumbai, Bangalore, etc. is what worries me.

79 pat  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:34:55am

Ever notice how rarely suicide bombers detonate near a effective target? These muslim fanatics are very unkile the kamakazi, whom I have read first person accounts from survivors. The kamakazi had purpose and honor. They were far more disciplined and even more determined than their own officers. They were focused on explicit objectives, unlike the wild-eyed Muslim rabble that blow up restaurants, police stations, Mosques, churches, checkpoints, buses, hospitals , market places and grammar school.

80 Maximu§  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:34:59am

re: #67 The Other Les

In other words, Islam the way The Big Mo' wants it.

LOL, you do have a way with words Les...

81 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:35:00am

re: #76 esch

Probably the only thing that could is an 'Anti-Mahdi' to take charge and reform Islam.

Oh, they'll just blow him up too.

82 itellu3times  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:35:07am

re: #11 lawhawk

Sharif and Zardari can barely stand each other - and each can't stand Musharraf even less. If they can't put together a coalition government, the only group who can hold things together is the military, which means that instead of Musharraf, you've got another military strongman.

Or, Musharraf comes back to general acclamation.

83 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:35:26am
84 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:35:27am

re: #6 Dianna

That is extremely interesting. A suicide bomber attacking a possible nuclear facility? What's up with that?

A distraction while an insider steals the material they want.

85 BenZ's Bat  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:35:29am

re: #53 Darwin Akbar

This calls for more of that Tough Obama Diplomacy without Preconditions but with Extra Preparation H.

There, fixed that for ya.

86 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:35:29am

re: #80 Maximu§

LOL, you do have a way with words Les...

Thank you.

87 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:35:48am

re: #66 Honorary Yooper

We have our own mafiosos in charge though.

/Don Daley.

The Irish gangs here (in politics and out) actually tend to hate the Mafia's knife in the back mentality. They have historically tended to be much more open in their antagonisms. Frankly, if Obama could let his Irish ancestry give him some pugnaciousness, I'd respect him a little.

88 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:36:20am

re: #10 calvin coolidge

CHANGE! It's 3AM. Do you know where your nuclear bomb is?

Let's see - did I put it in the attic or the basement?

89 rabidsquirrel  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:36:47am

re: #78 Irene NYC

Kashmir isn't the problem. Mumbai, Bangalore, etc. is what worries me.

None of them are the problem. They are all symptoms of the real problem - Islam.

90 Killer Tomato  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:36:49am

re: #64 Maximu§

Matt just called from Fort Knox...he said he got his uniform and "he Loves it". Then he hung up...guess he had only 30 seconds to talk, but it was good to hear his voice.

Good! I'm happy for you.

91 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:36:53am

re: #72 Maximu§

No, but I heard the South Side of Chicago could give Northen Pakistan a run for their money.

Tell me about it. A guy just got shot and killed while pumping gas on the West Side last night while another three were shot on the far South Side.

92 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:36:57am

re: #69 CIA Reject

Unfortunately that may be the "lesser of two evils"- which is the only option available to provide stability when the parties in power are not willing to share power equitably.

That unwillingness to share power seems to be prevalent in islamist societies and, IMHO, it is the ace-in-the-hole that will allow us to win the war against islamism.

I seriously look at Shah of Iran, having lived there I saw first hand how he did things. For all the faults as a dictator, he was reforming the country in the White Revolution putting oil money into services that got to the people. He was secularizing the government, one of the things that pissed the mullahs off so much. He actually placed the crown on his own head at the coronation instead of a mullah doing it. He was slowly granting the parliament more power, working slowly toward the British model. The country made huge strides forward while he was in power.

93 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:37:27am

re: #12 SpiritOf1683

The problem is - the winner gets its finger on the nuclear button.

Actually, even the losers could get some devices. Maybe not the infrastructure to use high-tech means to deliver them, but container ships work as well, and don't leave a return address.

94 maddogg  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:37:41am

re: #79 pat

Ever notice how rarely suicide bombers detonate near a effective target? These muslim fanatics are very unkile the kamakazi, whom I have read first person accounts from survivors. The kamikaze had purpose and honor. They were far more disciplined and even more determined than their own officers. They were focused on explicit objectives, unlike the wild-eyed Muslim rabble that blow up restaurants, police stations, Mosques, churches, checkpoints, buses, hospitals , market places and grammar school.


You forgot to mention that the Kamikaze were used against military targets only, and not against civilian population centers.
/a notable difference.

95 Maximu§  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:37:50am

Back to work...damn clients!

96 Amillennialist  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:37:53am

President Bush was right to take out Saddam. He's been right in sending our warriors to exterminate mujahideen.

Unfortunately, the President has demonstrated no understanding of Islam.

We ought to be exploiting the natural blood rivalries within Islam, rather than funding the jihad against us. All Infidel dollars/aid to Muslims should be cut off immediately.

Pull our forces to the outer edges of Dar al-Islam and clean up whatever tries to escape.

No more American blood or treasure wasted glutting the avarice of Allah.

97 Lizard by the Bay[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:37:57am
98 amphibian  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:38:17am

re: #39 opinionated

Nuclear Pakistan disintegrating.

Russia invading a neighbor.

Iran heading for a nuclear ability.

Chavez with threats.

A Mideast war involving Israel a certainty in the next Administration.

And Americans can't make up their mind if a Liberal novice or a hero military man should be President.

Even as SoCons debate that pro life or pro choice will determine their vote.

We are so screwed.

All of this except Comrade Chavez and the Israel situation, I would put in the category of America and the rest of the civilized world being perceived as weak, and the jackals coming to see if they can grab a meal. Israel has its own incompetent leaders and its own independent problems with the neighbors (yeh, 5M Jews oppressing all those Muhammedans, all the way out to Tehran -- they're just that good!). Chavez is a small yippy dog that badly needs kicking.

99 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:39:06am

re: #91 Honorary Yooper

Tell me about it. A guy just got shot and killed while pumping gas on the West Side last night while another three were shot on the far South Side.

Yes, its bad down there. Chicago badly needs a police makeover. Strong anti-gang measures worked in New York, they can work here.

100 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:39:39am

re: #98 amphibian

Chavez is a small yippy dog that badly needs kicking.

He wants to be kicked, just to prove to the world that he's worth kicking. I say let him yap like a fool.

101 nikis-knight  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:39:44am
Better that they fight amongst themselves than get their fingers on the nuclear button.

Sure, but it sounds like that is what they are fighting for. This story reads like the opening act of a play whose climax is a frighteningly large attack on us.

But then, plenty do these days.

102 esch  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:39:46am

re: #81 The Other Les

Oh, they'll just blow him up too.

Sad but true. But then of course he by definition wouldn't be the 'Anti-Mahdi'

103 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:40:12am

re: #27 sattv4u2

He'll have to consult with Michelle and Gran-ma 1st

And with the UN.

104 BIG  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:40:55am

But BHO spent one of his spring breaks in Pakistan. Don't all college students go to Pakistan for the wild parties on spring break?

What I find amazing about the 3 week trip Barry took to Pakistan, is that he doesn't mention it in his books. The Pakistani roommate that he went with, is also not in any of his books. It is as if he wanted to hide his 3 weeks at a madrasa from everyone?

105 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:40:59am
106 Sharku  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:40:59am

Just wait for that yappy lil dog to get some offensive missles to counteract the defensive ones in Poland.

107 esch  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:41:13am

re: #97 Lizard by the Bay

True, but can the Saudi's say, "Giant Mecca Glass Salad Bowl"?

Don't forget to bring your skateboard! (And your radiation suit, of course)

108 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:41:19am

re: #79 pat

Ever notice how rarely suicide bombers detonate near a effective target? These muslim fanatics are very unkile the kamakazi, whom I have read first person accounts from survivors. The kamakazi had purpose and honor. They were far more disciplined and even more determined than their own officers. They were focused on explicit objectives, unlike the wild-eyed Muslim rabble that blow up restaurants, police stations, Mosques, churches, checkpoints, buses, hospitals , market places and grammar school.

The kamikaze had a military objective, mostly ships the bigger the better.

The jihadi has a terror objective, the target was not the munitions plant. The target was the psyche of the workers. Put fear of going to work into their minds, "do I want to risk death to go to work?"

Both are on "target" so to speak. The targets are different.

109 kynna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:41:38am

Do the leftists in the West who hated Musharref even see this? Or is it the same as Vietnam? Send home the 'problem' and then turn a blind eye to all consequences of abandonment.

110 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:41:50am

re: #29 mj

Not only isn't it appreciated- almost no aid to Muslim countries is ever appreciated, the weapons will be used against the US or Western interests.
Just ask the Israelis how many of the rifles that the Israeli government gave the Palestinian police force were then employed against innocent Israeli civilians.

There is no aid to Muslims, infidel. It is jizya. Pay up, bow down to the Muslim overlords, and otherwise shut up.
/Muslim mode off

111 CIA Reject  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:42:54am

re: #75 Irene NYC

Unless, of course, they manage to blow us to smithereens first.

Well yes, there is always that possibility to consider- which is why we have to be working very hard behind the scenes to insure that the enemy's lust for power (and hence for the blood of their own) exceeds their lust for our blood.

112 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:43:10am

re: #3 zombie

Better that they fight amongst themselves than get their fingers on the nuclear button.

But who gets the nukes if Pakistan degenerates into total chaos?
I hope we've got a realistic plan.

113 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:43:25am

My prediction: a couple of years of very bad civil unrest, interim coalition governments (never stable), and a tanking economy will make Pakistan ripe for takeover by a charismatic leader who will reuinfy Pakistan with the patriotic promise of taking back Kashmir once and for all. I feel that war with their Hindu neighbors is the only thing that will truly unite Pakistanis.

And yes, I do hope I'm wrong.

114 Pyrocles  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:44:01am

I don't think suicide bombers have much of a strategic "goal". As Hamas members have said, dying is the most important thing to them, not winning the war. Dying while killing infidels is what gets them to Paradise, whether their side actually wins the war or not. Pleasing Allah to reach Paradise is the goal; not necessarily winning.

re: #79 pat

Ever notice how rarely suicide bombers detonate near a effective target? These muslim fanatics are very unkile the kamakazi, whom I have read first person accounts from survivors. The kamakazi had purpose and honor. They were far more disciplined and even more determined than their own officers. They were focused on explicit objectives, unlike the wild-eyed Muslim rabble that blow up restaurants, police stations, Mosques, churches, checkpoints, buses, hospitals , market places and grammar school.

115 Dianna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:44:18am

re: #82 itellu3times

I think Musharraf would say, "No, thanks. I did it for nine years, and all I got for it was ulcers. It's someone else's turn. And the best of luck to you!"

116 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:44:24am
117 Iron Fist[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:45:02am
118 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:45:04am

re: #105 buzzsawmonkey

Chicago has a much more deeply entrenched gang system than New York has. The Blackstone Rangers/Black P. Stone Nation/El Rukhns, and their Disciple adversaries, have been around for over 40 years.

It's been going on longer than that. Chicago has had an entrenched gang culture since the 19th century.

119 Clemente  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:45:08am

re: #107 esch

re: #97 Lizard by the Bay

You both should know better. Go to your rooms.

120 Dianna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:45:22am

re: #113 Lizard by the Bay

And I thought I was in a constant battle with my pessimism!

Some time, I have got to buy you a lunch heavy in carbs.

121 pat  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:45:42am

re: #94 maddogg

I did forget, but I am aware of it. I have read kamakazi autobiographies and seen any number of interviews. Yep, a lot lived because of mission failure or no deployment.they were far more disciplined than their own commanders who were engaged in torture, rape, and plunder. Their training was exceptional and many were religious shinto. all were aware of explicit primary targets and secondary targets. The first suicide troops were actually the miniature subs at Pearl Harbor that had no way to return and the men under orders not to be captured.

122 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:45:45am

re: #108 jcm

Targets different, but finally stopping them might be similar I hope I'm wrong.

123 Irene NYC  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:45:53am

re: #89 rabidsquirrel

None of them are the problem. They are all symptoms of the real problem - Islam.

I was saying in shorthand that India is mentally prepared for Islamic attacks in Kashmir because everybody recognizes that a war is going on (albeit in part by irregulars). But when the bombs start going off in Mumbai, Bangalore, Gujarat, etc., it's plain terrorism, and that's a real problem.

124 realwest  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:45:56am

Hey all Y'all - FWIW, I just finished about a long conversation with one of my Pakistani friends and he says that since Mush has been forced to step down, the Taliban will kill anyone who gets in their way. He also said that he lost one of his family members in the last suicide bombing (Monday?) in Lahore.
Sometimes we tend to forget the all too human element of the death and destruction Muslims face from these murderous savages. And yes, my friend is quite certain (from talking to his friends after the Lahore bombing and today's bombing) that the Taliban/Jihadists are to blame and wishes that SOMEONE would "kill all of them and let Pakistan live in peace".
Oh yeah, btw, he became a US Citizen at least 10 years before 9/11.

125 rawmuse  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:46:43am

re: #64 Maximu§

I know you must both be so proud that you could bust. I am very proud for the both of you! Kindest regards, and may God bless.

126 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:46:54am

Oh, that deletion at #97 was ridiculous! I mentioned a nuclear attack on Mecca as a reponse to a Saudi "dirty nuke" attack! Are we not allowed to discuss nuclear responses even if they're reasonable and proportionate anymore?

127 maddogg  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:47:00am

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

It's been going on longer than that. Chicago has had an entrenched gang culture since the 19th century.


And thats just the city council...

128 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:47:15am

re: #117 Iron Fist

So of course Jimmi the Dhimmi Carter knifed him in the back. And Obama will be worse. He tells us he will be worse.

I had Iranian friends who died because Rabbit Bait throw the Shah and Iran under the bus.

4 years of Obama and we'll remember Rabbit Bait fondly.

129 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:47:26am

re: #79 pat

Ever notice how rarely suicide bombers detonate near a effective target? These muslim fanatics are very unkile the kamakazi, whom I have read first person accounts from survivors. The kamakazi had purpose and honor. They were far more disciplined and even more determined than their own officers. They were focused on explicit objectives, unlike the wild-eyed Muslim rabble that blow up restaurants, police stations, Mosques, churches, checkpoints, buses, hospitals , market places and grammar school.

And the kamikazes attacked military targets, which can and did shoot back. They were devastating, but they weren't aimed at civilians. The "shaheeds" mostly attack civilians, not military on alert.

130 realwest  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:48:02am

re: #123 Irene NYC
Hi Irene! Hope you're well today. If y'all see my
#124, you'll see that it's not ALL Muslims who are responsible for this savagery.

131 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:48:24am

re: #124 realwest

Your buddy sees the unfortunate way to end this.


Towercam, the dawn is long gone, the light is still low however.

132 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:48:40am
133 rightwinger3  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:48:46am

re: #113 Lizard by the Bay

My prediction: a couple of years of very bad civil unrest, interim coalition governments (never stable), and a tanking economy will make Pakistan ripe for takeover by a charismatic leader who will reuinfy Pakistan with the patriotic promise of taking back Kashmir once and for all. I feel that war with their Hindu neighbors is the only thing that will truly unite Pakistanis.

And yes, I do hope I'm wrong.

Either that or a good game of cricket.

134 Dianna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:48:56am

re: #124 realwest

Condolences to your friend. Poor man.

135 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:49:09am

Kashmir is an example of how feckless the whole partition was. In theory each Princely state's ruler was free to choose to join either or neither of the new countries. Kashmir had a Moslem majority population and a Hindu ruler. At first he hesitated and thought he'd try for independence, like Bhutan and Sikkim did. Then Pakistani infiltrators started a rebellion and he panicked and asked India for help. To everyone's surprise the Indians decided to hell with what the inhabitants want, built a road and got troops in. The place has been a beautiful disaster ever since.

What made it especially awkward, since the Indians did have the letter of the law on their side, was they were hypocrites in the other major case of divided loyalties. When partition happened the largest Princely State was ruled by one of the richest men in the world,the Nizam. His 82,000 squar mile kingdom was seperated from the ocean by a thin strip of India. It was surrounded by the new country but had it's own army and had been effectively independent within British India. The ruler was Moslem but the majority of the population was Hindu. He was not allowed to join Pakistan and when he declared for continued independence India invaded.

136 JHW  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:49:11am

From the Czech Republic, astonishing to somewhere see people actually protesting in favor of the US.
Pro-US radar group stages sleep-in

Czech Prime Minister welcomes US-Polish Treaty

137 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:49:12am

re: #122 Ojoe

Targets different, but finally stopping them might be similar I hope I'm wrong.

We have to change the equation. As long as the jihadis think the tatic works they will use it. I really don't like thinking about what we have to do to get to that point.

138 pat  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:49:18am

re: #114 Pyrocles

I don't think suicide bombers have much of a strategic "goal". As Hamas members have said, dying is the most important thing to them, not winning the war. Dying while killing infidels is what gets them to Paradise, whether their side actually wins the war or not. Pleasing Allah to reach Paradise is the goal; not necessarily winning.

This is the way I see it also. I have begun to discredit the "disrupt society" as a real goal. It is way too sloppy and stupid. I think the goal is now "kill myself and as many others as I can, for deaths sake". We see Shiia killing Shiia all the time. Al Quaeda always terrorizes Sunni first.

139 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:50:43am

re: #126 Lizard by the Bay

You cannot say certain things here, though people do think them.

It is for the better at this point not to say.

Let us hope for a good way out of this mess.

140 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:50:55am

re: #45 Ojoe

What will the world look like the day that they are finally stopped?

Very different, and not in a pretty way.

141 amphibian  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:51:05am

re: #79 pat

Ever notice how rarely suicide bombers detonate near a effective target? These muslim fanatics are very unkile the kamakazi, whom I have read first person accounts from survivors. The kamakazi had purpose and honor. They were far more disciplined and even more determined than their own officers. They were focused on explicit objectives, unlike the wild-eyed Muslim rabble that blow up restaurants, police stations, Mosques, churches, checkpoints, buses, hospitals , market places and grammar school.

The kamikaze pilots were making a sacrifice, however misguided from our point of view. They had lives they were leaving behind, preferring death to seeing their homeland overrun and their god-emperor brought down, even though they must have understood that at best they were only delaying the inevitable.

Suicide bombers are going after the weakly-defended targets -- i.e., those that normal people would not even consider to be valid targets for military operations. Also, they are not making any sacrifice. "Press a button and wake up in Mo's Bordello" isn't much of a sacrifice. Fuck 'em.

142 Dianna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:52:09am

re: #136 JHW

They understand the relevance of history. Having been under tank treads a few times does definitely focus your collective mind.

143 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:52:13am

re: #137 jcm

The young former jihadi must say to his elders, "Look what a tragedy you have brought upon us. I reject you."

This is awful

144 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:52:14am

re: #127 maddogg

And thats just the city council...

LMAO! But its true. I just wish Obama would commit to some Capone style diplomacy. Start by taking Chavez for a one-way ride and then go from there.

145 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:52:19am

re: #108 jcm

The kamikaze had a military objective, mostly ships the bigger the better.

The jihadi has a terror objective, the target was not the munitions plant. The target was the psyche of the workers. Put fear of going to work into their minds, "do I want to risk death to go to work?"

Both are on "target" so to speak. The targets are different.

It was also a Taliban message to the West: The Nukes Are Ours.

More pants crapping.

146 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:52:43am

re: #53 Darwin Akbar

This calls for more of that Tough Obama Diplomacy without Preconditions but with Extra Preparation H.

Fixed for ya'

147 sattv4u2  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:52:47am

re: #124 realwest

I don't even know where to start. With all due respect to both your friend (and condolences to his family) and you, his wish that SOMEONE would "kill all of them and let Pakistan live in peace". rings a little hollow. I'm not taking him to task individually, but there doesn't seem to be any large hue and cry from Pakistanis. Afghanis, Spaniards, French, etc etc until the terror hits them personnally. And then and only then do they look to 'the great satan" to do "SOMETHIBG" for them!

148 Pyrocles  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:52:50am

To these people, life IS constant war for the glory of Allah. Martyrdom for Paradise's sake is the goal, not necessarily a strategic victory. The terror masters like bin Laden have long-term goals that they want to achieve, but lesser-actors like individual shahids just want to reach paradise as quickly as possible. The only sure way to reach Paradise is to die fighting Jihad, which suicide bombers believe they are doing by killing infidels in Allah's name.

re: #138 pat

This is the way I see it also. I have begun to discredit the "disrupt society" as a real goal. It is way too sloppy and stupid. I think the goal is now "kill myself and as many others as I can, for deaths sake". We see Shiia killing Shiia all the time. Al Quaeda always terrorizes Sunni first.

149 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:53:00am

We should all be thankfull!

Just think how many would have died if Islam were a violent religion instead of a peaceful one.
/

150 Eowyn2  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:53:03am

re: #11 lawhawk

Watch for the military to do something in the absence of a coalition government.

Sharif and Zardari can barely stand each other - and each can't stand Musharraf even less. If they can't put together a coalition government, the only group who can hold things together is the military, which means that instead of Musharraf, you've got another military strongman.

And Mehsud continues to exploit the situation with bombings.


Will the military be able to control the islamists?
Not without major stalinist tactics

151 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:54:07am
152 itellu3times  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:54:11am

re: #115 Dianna

I think Musharraf would say, "No, thanks. I did it for nine years, and all I got for it was ulcers. It's someone else's turn. And the best of luck to you!"

What, and leave show biz?

153 maddogg  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:54:12am

re: #145 Sol Roth

It was also a Taliban message to the West: The Nukes Are Ours.

More pants crapping.


Time to buy stock in "Depends"...

154 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:54:21am

re: #145 Sol Roth

It was also a Taliban message to the West: The Nukes Are Ours.

More pants crapping.

If things really start looking crap I can see a MEU sent in for a retrieval. If we don't have an extraction arrangement already in place.

A MEU going in for them will be very, very messy.

155 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:54:23am

re: #136 JHW

From the Czech Republic, astonishing to somewhere see people actually protesting in favor of the US.
Pro-US radar group stages sleep-in

Czech Prime Minister welcomes US-Polish Treaty

Quadrillion upsnaps to "Pro" and the Czechs!

157 rawmuse  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:54:56am

re: #148 Pyrocles

To these people, life IS constant war for the glory of Allah. Martyrdom for Paradise's sake...

It is amazing just how few people realize that one salient fact.

158 akak  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:55:04am

Guess they better start pulling the Afgan pullout plans and dust it off.

Without Pakistan as a supply route, what happens?

159 Irene NYC  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:55:22am

re: #130 realwest

Hi Irene! Hope you're well today. If y'all see my
#124, you'll see that it's not ALL Muslims who are responsible for this savagery.

Morning real!

Absolutely agreed, however, Muslims as a group have done nothing to stop the radicals from becoming the public face of Islam.

160 realwest  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:55:59am

re: #115 Dianna
Yup and he might even mention that he survived what - eleven attempts on his life?
As weak as he appeared to be to us here in the US, he was, I gather, not popular in Pakistan for, among other things, trying to get rid of the jihadists
(see, e.g., the Red Mosque) and his starting to send Paki Regular Army forces, supported by air power, into the NW Frontier provinces (and winking and nodding when the US used it's drones to deliver the occasional rockets on targets within the Frontier Provinces). I think it was his perceived grasp for all power that upset our stupid State Department which didn't support him, but also didn't know who else to support.

161 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:56:37am

re: #153 maddogg

Time to buy stock in "Depends"...

Or a fusionable colonic in the region.

162 Dianna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:56:54am

re: #152 itellu3times

No idea.

I'm going to go get some coffee and kick-start my synapses.

163 CIA Reject  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:57:06am

re: #92 jcm

I seriously look at Shah of Iran, having lived there I saw first hand how he did things. For all the faults as a dictator, he was reforming the country in the White Revolution putting oil money into services that got to the people. He was secularizing the government, one of the things that pissed the mullahs off so much. He actually placed the crown on his own head at the coronation instead of a mullah doing it. He was slowly granting the parliament more power, working slowly toward the British model. The country made huge strides forward while he was in power.

That's a very good example. Unfortunately the US always gets slammed with charges of "supporting dictators" in situations like that when the reality is that all of the alternatives are far worse...

164 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:57:14am

re: #114 Pyrocles

I don't think suicide bombers have much of a strategic "goal". As Hamas members have said, dying is the most important thing to them, not winning the war. Dying while killing infidels is what gets them to Paradise, whether their side actually wins the war or not. Pleasing Allah to reach Paradise is the goal; not necessarily winning.

As far as I'm concerned, they can kill themselves; the more the better.
As long as they don't take anyone else with them.

165 rightwinger3  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:57:20am

re: #154 jcm

If things really start looking crap I can see a MEU sent in for a retrieval. If we don't have an extraction arrangement already in place.

A MEU going in for them will be very, very messy.

What? You're not serious are you? MEU is Bn sized with a "mixed" wing squadron.

166 nikis-knight  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:57:38am

re: #148 Pyrocles

To these people, life IS constant war for the glory of Allah. Martyrdom for Paradise's sake is the goal, not necessarily a strategic victory. The terror masters like bin Laden have long-term goals that they want to achieve, but lesser-actors like individual shahids just want to reach paradise as quickly as possible. The only sure way to reach Paradise is to die fighting Jihad, which suicide bombers believe they are doing by killing infidels in Allah's name.


That's a good point. Hardcore Jihadis don't fight to achieve anything, they fight to fight. Their goals are not remotely realistic, but they pursue them because they believe with enough demonstrations of faith (and we know the kind of demonstratins Allah most readily accepts) they will be given victory.

167 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:57:47am

re: #154 jcm

If things really start looking crap I can see a MEU sent in for a retrieval. If we don't have an extraction arrangement already in place.

A MEU going in for them will be very, very messy.

An arrangement with whom? Musharraf?

That's the problem.

168 DaddyO  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:57:56am

re: #153 maddogg

Time to buy stock in "Depends"...

Time to wonder if America has contingency plans to appropriate Pakistan's nukes.

169 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:58:08am

re: #64 Maximu§

Matt just called from Fort Knox...he said he got his uniform and "he Loves it". Then he hung up...guess he had only 30 seconds to talk, but it was good to hear his voice.

Obviously he's still going through in-processing and hasn't yet met his DI's.

170 realwest  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:59:13am

re: #136 JHW Hey, thanks for the good news for a change!

171 Ojoe  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 9:59:35am

re: #165 rightwinger3

If I had to insure the safety of the USA & the Paki nukes were about to fall into the hands of the fanatics, well I'd think real hard about 'retrieving' them.

BBL

172 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:00:07am

re: #168 DaddyO

Time to wonder if America has contingency plans to appropriate Pakistan's nukes.

India probably does, even if we don't.

173 kynna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:00:23am

At least MI5 has found no common denominator in regard to British terrorists.

My question for MI5 is: what are you defining as 'terrorism' to skew these results so you can't be seen as 'insulting Islam'? Not picking up after your dog in the park? Defending yourself against an attacker? Verbally siding with the US on any subject? Cheering for Michael Phelps in the Olympics?

174 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:00:26am

re: #163 CIA Reject

That's a very good example. Unfortunately the US always gets slammed with charges of "supporting dictators" in situations like that when the reality is that all of the alternatives are far worse...

Very few remember Mossadeq, was doing exactly what Chaves is doing now. The only remember the EVIL CIA tossed him out.

175 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:00:29am

re: #78 Irene NYC

Kashmir isn't the problem. Mumbai, Bangalore, etc. is what worries me.

But who will I call to get tech support for my Dell?

176 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:01:12am

re: #166 nikis-knight

That's a good point. Hardcore Jihadis don't fight to achieve anything, they fight to fight. Their goals are not remotely realistic, but they pursue them because they believe with enough demonstrations of faith (and we know the kind of demonstratins Allah most readily accepts) they will be given victory.

Yes. And if I wanted to take over a country's nuclear arsenal, I would use its suicidal, brainwashed idiots as guided bombs.

177 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:01:17am

re: #126 Lizard by the Bay

Oh, that deletion at #97 was ridiculous! I mentioned a nuclear attack on Mecca as a reponse to a Saudi "dirty nuke" attack! Are we not allowed to discuss nuclear responses even if they're reasonable and proportionate anymore?

Nuking Mecca is a purely emotional action that would not substantially bring us any closer to solving the Jihad problem.

178 Shug  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:02:17am

re: #177 The Other Les

Nuking Mecca is a purely emotional action that would not substantially bring us any closer to solving the Jihad problem.

and it would raise gas prices

179 Eowyn2  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:02:18am

re: #113 Lizard by the Bay

My prediction: a couple of years of very bad civil unrest, interim coalition governments (never stable), and a tanking economy will make Pakistan ripe for takeover by a charismatic leader who will reuinfy Pakistan with the patriotic promise of taking back Kashmir once and for all. I feel that war with their Hindu neighbors is the only thing that will truly unite Pakistanis.

And yes, I do hope I'm wrong.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

chaos will be the order of the day.
none of us, sitting safely behind the US military, can fathom the life of an islamist nor of his sitting target victims.

180 Irene NYC  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:02:37am

re: #173 kynna

Yeah, wasn't that article a joke? Anybody who knows anything about Islamic terror knows that they have understood for a long time the need to recruit amongst populations that don't look Muslim. But, other than the IRA, the only terrorists in GB are Muslims or their fellow travelers.

181 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:03:51am
182 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:03:59am

re: #151 buzzsawmonkey

"An entrenched gang culture since the 19th century" maybe, but can you make the case that any of those 19th century gangs are still around, even in vestigial form? The Chicago mob has its roots in Big Jim Colosimo's gang, but that connection is pretty attenuated today. You could, I suppose, argue that the Chicago Democratic Party has its roots in 19th-century Irish gangs, but I suspect that having gone (reasonably) legit a long time ago, they too don't have much of a direct connection to their 19th-century roots.

The Rangers/Nation/Rukhns are still run by Jeff Fort, as they have been for 40 years. The Ds also have a direct living connection to their original members. Both of these gangs have, as I understand it, collected the other smaller gangs as affiliates and relatively evenly divided the town.

You analysis is correct. I only meant my statement to say that the basic problem was a long-standing one.

183 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:04:48am

re: #151 buzzsawmonkey

"An entrenched gang culture since the 19th century" maybe, but can you make the case that any of those 19th century gangs are still around, even in vestigial form? The Chicago mob has its roots in Big Jim Colosimo's gang, but that connection is pretty attenuated today. You could, I suppose, argue that the Chicago Democratic Party has its roots in 19th-century Irish gangs, but I suspect that having gone (reasonably) legit a long time ago, they too don't have much of a direct connection to their 19th-century roots.

The Rangers/Nation/Rukhns are still run by Jeff Fort, as they have been for 40 years. The Ds also have a direct living connection to their original members. Both of these gangs have, as I understand it, collected the other smaller gangs as affiliates and relatively evenly divided the town.

Yep, that they did. They also made alliances with other gangs so that there are now two alliances that fight against each other, the Folk and the People. The Wiki articles have a short listing of gangs that are in each. The Rukhns aren't even at the top of the pecking order for their alliance anymore (Folk Nation). That's now the Latin Kings and the Vice Lords.

The Disciples made their own alliance (People Nation) and effectively own it, even though the main body of the Gangster Disciples was broken up due to the closure and destuction of the projects in Chicago. This one is came directly out of the prision system in Illinois.

Now, the city council has enough conncetions to the Mob, the Irish gangs, and the modern Folk and People. One of the aldermen, Arenda Troutman, was romantically involved with the #2 of the Black Disciples (People) while in office (she was defeated in 2007, after arrest).

184 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:05:13am

re: #177 The Other Les

Nuking Mecca is a purely emotional action that would not substantially bring us any closer to solving the Jihad problem.

Well, should we ever find ourselves at war with a Saudi Arabia that has fallen to the Islamist radicals, and they begin a campaign of dirty nuke stikes on Western targets (thanks to that wonderful "peaceful" power plant they're getting), I would much rather destroy the symbol of their power than a soft target like Riyadh (besides, we don't want to nuke the oil infrastructure, now do we?).

185 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:05:26am

re: #156 JHW

Swedish Foreign Minister:We Know Russia has Nukes in the Baltic

Sweden has fighters carrying anti-ship missiles.

186 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:07:00am

So, how exactly will the Israelis and the diplomats approach the statement by Haniyeh calling for jihad to recover Jerusalem from the Jews? They'll ignore it.

Just as they always do. Well, ignore it and provide prisoner releases, as confidence building measures.

Hamas doesn't need confidence building. It needs a lesson in manners - taught with skill and precision by the IDF and IAF.

187 Eowyn2  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:07:05am

re: #154 jcm

If things really start looking crap I can see a MEU sent in for a retrieval. If we don't have an extraction arrangement already in place.

A MEU going in for them will be very, very messy.

5 MEUs from the USS New York, the USS Arlington, the USS Michael Murphy, the USS Jason Dunham and the USS Somerset.

Or, since the other four ships aren't done yet, stick 5 MEUs on the USS New York and send them to the Taliban.

188 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:07:11am

re: #180 Irene NYC

Yeah, wasn't that article a joke? Anybody who knows anything about Islamic terror knows that they have understood for a long time the need to recruit amongst populations that don't look Muslim. But, other than the IRA, the only terrorists in GB are Muslims or their fellow travelers.

And the "lillywhites" on the Left that hate their country. Plenty of those around.

189 kynna  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:07:14am

re: #180 Irene NYC

Yeah, wasn't that article a joke? Anybody who knows anything about Islamic terror knows that they have understood for a long time the need to recruit amongst populations that don't look Muslim. But, other than the IRA, the only terrorists in GB are Muslims or their fellow travelers.

That's why I wonder how they're defining it. The gun control zealots define a 'child' all the way up to 22 in order to skew the results of studies of gun violence and kids.

The only person I've ever heard of saying that Muslims were involved in the majority of world terrorism is Musharref. Which brings us back to the article at hand. Xp

190 JHW  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:07:32am

re: #185 The Other Les

Yes, and it appears that they are at least starting to recognize the threat.

191 realwest  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:07:48am

re: #147 sattv4u2
I understand that you meant nothing personal about your comment, but I would also ask you to look at what the USA did to fight terrorism before 9/11.
I truly believe that most people just want to be left alone to live their lives peacefully. Indeed, I'd make that the overwhelming majority of people. But when the enemy is so well organized and funded, it can be dangerous personally to "get after them" so to speak.
But I will say to you, based upon my own independent study of Pakistan over the years, and the conversations I've had with my two Pakistani born friends down here, that if someone takes the lead against the Taliban/jihadists, they WILL follow; Mush was greeted with great disdain by those who support the jihadists when he took down the Red Mosque; what was not so well reported (if at all) was how many Pakistani's were GLAD to see the Red Mosque blown up. We get truly shitty reporting here about Pakistan and the Pakistani people.

192 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:08:21am

re: #156 JHW

Swedish Foreign Minister:We Know Russia has Nukes in the Baltic


Finland wants in to Nato. If Sweden were to join it would be a real plus. Good equipment, tough soldiers. Very awkward politics though and a lot of unreconstructed anti-Semitism. More Aryan than the Germans socialism without having to renounce it after WW-II.

193 Racer X  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:08:53am

A perfect example of why certain countries are just not ready for a democracy. The majority of the religious "leaders" are uneducated, yet they want to dictate policy (and they have nukes!).

194 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:09:21am

re: #184 Lizard by the Bay

New wells can be drilled. New pipes can be laid.

195 lawhawk  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:09:26am

re: #191 realwest

The Islamists brayed loudest, which is what got reported. Most everyone else knew that the Lal Masjid (red mosque) was being used as a terror breeding ground and from which the Islamists lauched terror attacks directly against the government ministries in Islamabad.

And the lasting image of that whole siege was the terror master getting caught trying to escape while wearing women's clothes.

196 Racer X  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:10:02am

re: #184 Lizard by the Bay

We can drill through glass.

197 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:10:55am

re: #196 Racer X

We can drill through glass.

We can slant drill around the glass.

198 Eowyn2  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:11:18am

re: #186 lawhawk


He's not the only one. Don't forget little Sarah and the rabid-rabbit?

199 JHW  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:11:25am

re: #192 lifeofthemind

Interesting, I didn't know that Finland had any interest in joining NATO.

200 nikis-knight  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:11:44am

On the subject of nuking...
Question one-would a nuclear launch site survive a first strike by a current generation nuclear bomb, in good enough shape to still retaliate? How about well guided conventional munitions?
Question two-Do we know how many and where Pakistan's bombs are? If so, surely people who know the answer to question one are watching them constantly, right?

201 maddogg  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:11:49am

Seems to me its high time we sent some substantial equipnent to our friends in Pakistan and Georgia. We don't really need this old cannon, and we have it in storage, taking up space and gathering cobwebs, Maybe some of our friends could use it.

202 galloping granny  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:12:12am

You know how all the polls are showing Obama and McCain neck and neck? If you want a true understanding of that, look at this -

Obama Spent More on Ads Than McCain Spent on Election (Update1)

By Jonathan D. Salant

Aug. 21 (Bloomberg) -- Barack Obama spent more on advertising last month than Republican rival John McCain spent on his campaign, new Federal Election Commission filings show. [Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

That really says something. Obama spent more on just advertising than McCain spent on his entire campaign - and Obama is still losing ground.

203 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:12:16am

re: #196 Racer X

We can drill through glass.

We'll get Ben Affleck and Bruce Willis on it. They drill so good it's easier to teach them how to become astronauts than it is for them to teach anyone how to make a hole in ground. That's just how good at drilling they are.

/too much HBO

204 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:12:37am

re: #151 buzzsawmonkey

"An entrenched gang culture since the 19th century" maybe, but can you make the case that any of those 19th century gangs are still around, even in vestigial form? The Chicago mob has its roots in Big Jim Colosimo's gang, but that connection is pretty attenuated today. You could, I suppose, argue that the Chicago Democratic Party has its roots in 19th-century Irish gangs, but I suspect that having gone (reasonably) legit a long time ago, they too don't have much of a direct connection to their 19th-century roots.

The Rangers/Nation/Rukhns are still run by Jeff Fort, as they have been for 40 years. The Ds also have a direct living connection to their original members. Both of these gangs have, as I understand it, collected the other smaller gangs as affiliates and relatively evenly divided the town.

I remember Jeff Fort, used to walk past the Rangers/P-Stone on Blackstone to get take out at Tai Sam Yon. Then theywere at the old movie house to the North, looked in at the Rukn trial and saw the armory laid out on display.

205 zulubaby  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:12:37am
206 Shug  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:12:38am

re: #184 Lizard by the Bay

no need to nuke anybody.

send them nude photos of Rosie O'Donnel and Ernest Borgnine.
They will commit mass suicide

207 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:12:38am

re: #178 Shug

and it would raise gas prices

Not too much. Most of the oil fields are on the other side of the Arabian Peninsula, IIRC.

208 David Simon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:12:57am

re: #174 jcm

Very few remember Mossadeq, was doing exactly what Chaves is doing now. The only remember the EVIL CIA tossed him out.

And if only the greedy western oil companies would have adopted a more equitable revenue sharing arrangement, Mossadeq wouldn't have had to nationalize the oil industry.

/more moonbat deja vu

209 Irene NYC  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:13:10am

re: #189 kynna

That's why I wonder how they're defining it. The gun control zealots define a 'child' all the way up to 22 in order to skew the results of studies of gun violence and kids.

The only person I've ever heard of saying that Muslims were involved in the majority of world terrorism is Musharref. Which brings us back to the article at hand. Xp

I think we can safely give up on Brits defining anything. Thieves aren't thieves any longer. Arsonists are arsonists. Terrorists aren't terrorists. Etc.

They've just decided to bury their heads in the sands because they are in total denial.

210 esch  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:13:15am

Well, obviously we should not nuke Mecca. The consequences of that are barely imaginable. But, perhaps it could be taken and held as leverage. "You'll get it back once you grow up."

I know it's distasteful as well, but we're rapidly approaching the nuclear worst-case scenario. We need to put all options on the table.

211 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:13:18am

re: #200 nikis-knight

On the subject of nuking...
Question one-would a nuclear launch site survive a first strike by a current generation nuclear bomb, in good enough shape to still retaliate? How about well guided conventional munitions?
Question two-Do we know how many and where Pakistan's bombs are? If so, surely people who know the answer to question one are watching them constantly, right?

Not a Pakistani one, I'm reasonably sure. A US silo probably would survive an attack from a Pakistani bomb, though. And they have no ways of getting our subs.

212 DaddyO  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:13:30am

re: #181 ploome hineni

planet of the apes is prophetic?


What? The broken top half of the Statue of Liberty will end-up in Mecca?

213 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:14:18am
214 Shug  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:14:41am

re: #207 Honorary Yooper


when even a tropical storm in the gulf raises oil futures, I think a nuclear weapon delivered to Mecca would cause the price of oil to climb

a lot


immediately

215 sattv4u2  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:15:22am

re: #191 realwest

You're incorrect, As bad as the Clinton years were, the USA has always been on the front lines seeking out and combatting terror. Our handcuffs have alwas been countries where we tried to interdict and were told that it was an internal matter and were denied access (even flying a strike against Libya required us not to 'intrude" on airspace, even though we would only have been flying over for about an hour!) Clintons big blunder was not devising a way to "legally" take Bin Laden from the Sudanese.

216 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:15:25am

re: #205 zulubaby

The paranoid crackheads are at it again.

Zulubaby! Howya doin?

217 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:15:57am

re: #199 JHW

Interesting, I didn't know that Finland had any interest in joining NATO.

Putin is such a genius, the Brits call his results an "Own goal."

218 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:16:13am

re: #191 realwest

I understand that you meant nothing personal about your comment, but I would also ask you to look at what the USA did to fight terrorism before 9/11.
I truly believe that most people just want to be left alone to live their lives peacefully. Indeed, I'd make that the overwhelming majority of people. But when the enemy is so well organized and funded, it can be dangerous personally to "get after them" so to speak.
But I will say to you, based upon my own independent study of Pakistan over the years, and the conversations I've had with my two Pakistani born friends down here, that if someone takes the lead against the Taliban/jihadists, they WILL follow; Mush was greeted with great disdain by those who support the jihadists when he took down the Red Mosque; what was not so well reported (if at all) was how many Pakistani's were GLAD to see the Red Mosque blown up. We get truly shitty reporting here about Pakistan and the Pakistani people.

Look at the people in Iraq. They essentially keep their heads down until it was clear we'd stick it out (thank you Pelousy, Reid Estate, and Murtha**ker for sowing doubt).

Memories in the mid-east are long, loyalty is to family first. Remember "Pakistan" isn't a national identity yet, it' only 61 years old. So the ordinary folks are going to keep their heads down until it's clear which way the wind will blow. If they stand up now, things go to shit, they're going to be caught on the wrong side and the whole family pays.

I don't blame them in one respect, looking out for number 1. But on the other hand if they want a country to call their own they're going to have to size it for their own.

219 pat  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:16:37am

Since we are well off topic, any of you read Voight's defense of Angelina Jolie from Roseanne's attack? Vicious. Some assume that because Voight is a bit eccentric as well as a conservative and Joilie liberal that they are estranged. As Roseanne learned, nothing could be further from the truth. And Voight can think and speak on his feet.

220 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:17:45am

re: #212 DaddyO

What? The broken top half of the Statue of Liberty will end-up in Mecca?

Think along the lines of Beneath the Planet of the Apes.

221 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:18:00am
222 maddogg  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:18:03am

re: #219 pat

Since we are well off topic, any of you read Voight's defense of Angelina Jolie from Roseanne's attack? Vicious. Some assume that because Voight is a bit eccentric as well as a conservative and Joilie liberal that they are estranged. As Roseanne learned, nothing could be further from the truth. And Voight can think and speak on his feet.


And Rosie can gain weight, be incredibly ugly, and spew stupidity on her feet, your feet, my feet...

223 zulubaby  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:18:45am

re: #216 Sol Roth

Zulubaby! Howya doin?

Good! How are you? :-)

224 razorbacker  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:18:50am

A different kind of warrior died yesterday. Someone you should know.

If you read We Were Soldiers, Once ... And Young, or saw the movie, you may remember the helicopter pilot who kept showing up whenever Hal Moore needed him most. You may remember the character, but I'd like you to remember the man -- MAJ Ed Freeman, the aviation company's commander...

Boise Medal of Honor recipient passes away
03:23 PM MDT on Wednesday, August 20, 2008

Maj. Ed Freeman died at a Boise hospital Wednesday. He was 80 years old.

His exploits in the Ia Drang Valley in Vietnam were featured in a book and on film, and for his heroism, he was awarded the nation's higest honor.

This morning, Major Ed Freeman, known as "Too Tall," passed away at St. Alphonsus Regional Medical Center in Boise. He was 80 years old.

Freeman's youngest son, Doug Freeman, says his father died from health complications due to Parkinson's Disease.

Freeman was a helicopter pilot, who flew multiple missions under heavy enemy fire to re-supply the 7th Cavalry in the Ia Drang Valley, and evacuate wounded troopers.

The 1965 battle was the subject of the book "We Were Soldiers Once, and Young" by Lt. Gen. Hal Moore, and the Mel Gibson movie adaptation "We Were Soldiers."

Freeman was awarded the Medal of Honor for his heroism during the Vietnam War by President George W. Bush in July of 2001.

Lt. Col. Tim Marsano, with the Idaho National Guard, says funeral services have been scheduled for Saturday. Freeman will then be buried at the Idaho Veterans Cemetery in Boise.



We used to joke that Vietnam helicopter pilots earned medals for valor every day -- and sometimes somebody actually got one.

You should've heard the brags we passed around when Too Tall actually got his MOH. Damn, but we were proud of him...

Six is inbound with the numbers, Fiddlers' Green contingent -- make a hole!

I got nothing.

225 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:19:09am

re: #220 MandyManners

Think along the lines of Beneath the Planet of the Apes.

That bomb was a total biosphere killer.

226 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:19:22am

re: #219 pat

I posted Roseanne's crap yesterday. Do you have a link to Voight's response?

227 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:19:43am

re: #213 buzzsawmonkey

The one good thing you can say about the Rangers and the Disciples was that back in 1968 they kept the South Side fairly quiet after King's assassination. The West Side burned, but the South Side sustained much less damage.

They'd play in the gym as did the Devil's Disciples with the trident tattoo. Rule was the campus was neutral territory and they always let a student join the game.

228 nikis-knight  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:19:48am

re: #211 Kosh's Shadow

Not a Pakistani one, I'm reasonably sure. A US silo probably would survive an attack from a Pakistani bomb, though. And they have no ways of getting our subs.

Not really concerned about our capabilities on that one, since I don't put suicide bombing writ nation-scale past frenzied Jihadists.

229 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:20:32am

re: #199 JHW

Interesting, I didn't know that Finland had any interest in joining NATO.

I can't, for the life of me, imagine why Finland would want to join NATO.

230 Irene NYC  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:20:40am

Hey real,

Did you catch Writer Mom's post on the dead thread?

re: #1299 WriterMom

Here's something new:

Ezra Levant Hit With ANOTHER Human Rights Complaint


It's all just sick.

231 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:20:54am

linky pleasere: #219 pat

Since we are well off topic, any of you read Voight's defense of Angelina Jolie from Roseanne's attack? Vicious. Some assume that because Voight is a bit eccentric as well as a conservative and Joilie liberal that they are estranged. As Roseanne learned, nothing could be further from the truth. And Voight can think and speak on his feet.

232 pat  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:20:58am

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey

Above, posted it for ya

233 realwest  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:21:21am

re: #195 lawhawkOh I know that my friend. I guess wishing for some honest, thorough journalism is just stupid on my part.
I'd have shown that S.O.B. wearing woman's garb on the nightly news and forced our "state department" to look at it every hour on the hour just to get their heads out of their collective anus.
And it DID take balls for Mush to go after it - he created even more determined enemies than ever for doing that and our state department, within 6 months, decided Mush shouldn't run Pakistan.

234 nikis-knight  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:21:24am

re: #219 pat

Since we are well off topic, any of you read Voight's defense of Angelina Jolie from Roseanne's attack? Vicious. Some assume that because Voight is a bit eccentric as well as a conservative and Joilie liberal that they are estranged. As Roseanne learned, nothing could be further from the truth. And Voight can think and speak on his feet.

link?

235 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:21:32am

re: #223 zulubaby

Good! How are you? :-)

Terrific! You know, hangin' out awaiting the rapture and such :). Nice to see you checking in with some intel, sure do miss your contributions!

236 nikis-knight  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:21:59am

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey

Sigh, I really need to read a bit further before replying...

237 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:22:21am

I would assume that the Pakistani's have most of their nukes set up to launch from mobile sites. I mean, it's not like they ever had ICBM capability, did they?

238 Shug  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:22:48am

Dr Zeus called.
The Apes resent the comparison to Saudis. He asks that you Stop

239 David Simon  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:22:57am

re: #224 razorbacker

Thanks for posting that; I wouldn't have known about it if you didn't.

Sad. And sad that so many think a "story" about a celebrity flashing her bush is more important than the passing of a true American hero.

240 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:23:18am
241 lifeofthemind  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:23:19am

re: #229 Honorary Yooper

I can't, for the life of me, imagine why Finland would want to join NATO.

upding

242 Iron Fist[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:23:33am
243 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:23:39am

re: #235 Sol Roth

Terrific! You know, hangin' out awaiting the rapture and such :). Nice to see you checking in with some intel, sure do miss your contributions!

I was talking to a Chabad Rabbi last night, and he said the Rebbe did not believe the predictions about really bad times just before Mashiach; he felt that we were already going through those times.

I hope he was right, but I look at what is going on, and I'm not so sure.

244 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:23:41am

re: #226 MandyManners

I posted Roseanne's crap yesterday. Do you have a link to Voight's response?

[Link: extratv.warnerbros.com...]

245 zulubaby  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:23:43am

re: #235 Sol Roth

Terrific! You know, hangin' out awaiting the rapture and such :). Nice to see you checking in with some intel, sure do miss your contributions!

LOL, sound great. I miss you guys but I have no time anymore. Life goes on, and life is really good, thank G-d.

246 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:24:31am

re: #240 buzzsawmonkey

[Link: extratv.warnerbros.com...]

247 The Other Les  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:24:36am

re: #229 Honorary Yooper

You have raised sarcasm to a high art!

248 zulubaby  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:24:42am
Saudi cleric: Celebrating birthdays and anniversaries is anti-Islam (Reuters)

Let's go for the short list ... what isn't anti-Islam?

249 Pyrocles  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:25:03am

Here's a link.

Jon Voight for VP!

re: #234 nikis-knight

link?

250 Racer X  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:25:08am
251 Pyrocles  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:25:42am

Beheadings? Preferably on-camera?

re: #248 zulubaby

Let's go for the short list ... what isn't anti-Islam?

252 nikis-knight  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:25:47am

re: #244 MandyManners

[Link: extratv.warnerbros.com...]

Site blocked for me. Is it long or can someone paste?

253 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:26:35am
254 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:26:39am

re: #244 MandyManners

[Link: extratv.warnerbros.com...]

Voight maintains class in his response. Some of the comments, though, are different.

255 zulubaby  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:26:40am

re: #251 Pyrocles

Beheadings? Preferably on-camera?

A good start.

256 razorbacker  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:26:53am

re: #239 David Simon

Thanks for posting that; I wouldn't have known about it if you didn't.

Sad. And sad that so many think a "story" about a celebrity flashing her bush is more important than the passing of a true American hero.

Eighty years old. Man. But he was young once...and a soldier.

We are a lucky, lucky nation.

May we remain so.

257 maddogg  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:27:29am

re: #253 buzzsawmonkey

Well, I certainly look forward to Hollywood Thunderdome.

New rules: No one comes out.

258 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:28:07am
259 MandyManners  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:28:19am

re: #252 nikis-knight

Site blocked for me. Is it long or can someone paste?

I cannot c/p on that site.

260 Racer X  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:28:22am
“Aren’t you supposed to be somewhat enlightened, or do you not know that the African daughter you hold in every picture had parents who suffered and died because of the Republican party’s worldwide economic assault on Africa over the last few decades since Ronald Reagan?”

-Roseanne Barr

What a fucking moron.

261 Silhouette  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:28:22am

re: #251 Pyrocles

Beheadings? Preferably on-camera?

I think if you expand that to "Death of innocents", you have captured 99% of what is acceptable.

262 Thor-Zone  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:28:30am
The ruling coalition, made up of traditional rivals who were united primarily in their determination to force Musharraf from office, meanwhile appeared to be veering toward collapse

Once they get what they want, they form a circular firing squad and go to town.

263 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:29:13am

re: #258 buzzsawmonkey

Well, in that case Tom Cruise can compete.

Zing!

264 yma o hyd  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:29:33am

re: #132 lawhawk

Hamas: We'll retrieve Jerusalem by Jihad.

I'm now going to be very flippant, so forgive me, Lizards, but that Hamas-Leader has brought it on with saying Jerusalem is holy ebcause Mo ascended from there:

Get lin line, you stupid ar$e!
Jesus actually was resurrected there from the dead, before his ascension.
Your Mo is way behind on the ascension line - and resurrected he was not - so stuff it!

265 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:29:52am

re: #252 nikis-knight

Site blocked for me. Is it long or can someone paste?

It is short, but it is an image so I can't copy it.

266 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:30:46am

re: #258 buzzsawmonkey

Well, in that case Tom Cruise can compete.

He'll bore them all to death.

267 nikis-knight  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:30:47am

re: #265 Kosh's Shadow

re: #259 MandyManners

Alright, no sweat.

268 Killgore Trout  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:31:12am

RoP Somalia...
Civilians 'butchered' at mosque

Heavy shelling struck Somalia's capital city on Thursday, leaving pools of blood around a neighborhood mosque, a devastated market and 11 civilians dead, according to witnesses and a local journalist.

Many of the dead were preparing for prayers at the Abu Hureyra mosque, which was packed with worshippers, according to Sheikh Abdullahi Omar, whose leg was wounded by shrapnel.

"Body parts of the worshippers are scattered all over," he said.

269 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:32:12am

re: #243 Kosh's Shadow

I was talking to a Chabad Rabbi last night, and he said the Rebbe did not believe the predictions about really bad times just before Mashiach; he felt that we were already going through those times.

I hope he was right, but I look at what is going on, and I'm not so sure.

I was goofin' on the Rapture thing. Given the fluxes of violence in the last century, I'm sure to many people we've never left the beginning of the end-times.

My take is to enjoy life through appreciation, but be prepared mind, body and spirit. Most Israelis (I'm an American) are models of this philosophy.

BTW, and I have to repeat this every once in a while, I took my nick from Edward G. Robinson's character in Soylent Green. Before I found LGF, the burden of knowledge was just too much and I (figuratively) felt like just giving up. I'm a Gentile by trade.

270 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:32:56am

re: #248 zulubaby

Let's go for the short list ... what isn't anti-Islam?

Death.

271 Lizard by the Bay  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:34:35am

re: #248 zulubaby

Let's go for the short list ... what isn't anti-Islam?

Waiting until the ripe old age of 9 to consummate a marriage.

272 Thor-Zone  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:35:17am

re: #195 lawhawk

And the lasting image of that whole siege was the terror master getting caught trying to escape while wearing women's clothes.

What brave freedom fighters these people are

/sarc off

273 realwest  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:35:32am

re: #215 sattv4u2 Well this is not a day for me to fight with you about it, but Reagan found a way to chuck some Tomahawk cruise missles through Khaddafi's tents in the desert While Clinton managed to blow up an aspirin factory, and when the USS Cole was attacked, Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen said that it wasn't significant enough for us to do anything about it.
And what was Clinton's response to The Battle of Mogadishu (a/k/a "Blackhawk Down") - he hurriedly got the US military out of Somalia.
And what did we do about the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center? NADA.
We have NOT been in the forefront of the war against terror - at least not in the Clinton years.

274 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:37:13am
275 sattv4u2  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:38:48am

re: #273 realwest

For us to have gotten OUT of Somalia, we at first would have had to be IN Somalia,,,

my point ,,, thanks

276 pat  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:42:17am

re: #240 buzzsawmonkey

In the links section, buzz

277 jcm  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:42:39am

re: #273 realwest

Well this is not a day for me to fight with you about it, but Reagan found a way to chuck some Tomahawk cruise missles through Khaddafi's tents in the desert While Clinton managed to blow up an aspirin factory, and when the USS Cole was attacked, Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen said that it wasn't significant enough for us to do anything about it.
And what was Clinton's response to The Battle of Mogadishu (a/k/a "Blackhawk Down") - he hurriedly got the US military out of Somalia.
And what did we do about the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center? NADA.
We have NOT been in the forefront of the war against terror - at least not in the Clinton years.

Bin Laden has specifically sited Mogadishus in his reasoning for 9/11. We can only take so much before we give in.

278 pat  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:42:59am

re: #274 ploome hineni

Links section ploome, and
[Link: www.thesun.co.uk...]

279 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:43:16am
280 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:44:45am

re: #269 Sol Roth

I was goofin' on the Rapture thing. Given the fluxes of violence in the last century, I'm sure to many people we've never left the beginning of the end-times.

My take is to enjoy life through appreciation, but be prepared mind, body and spirit. Most Israelis (I'm an American) are models of this philosophy.

BTW, and I have to repeat this every once in a while, I took my nick from Edward G. Robinson's character in Soylent Green. Before I found LGF, the burden of knowledge was just too much and I (figuratively) felt like just giving up. I'm a Gentile by trade.

I realize you weren't being serious, but I thought I'd bring this up anyway. Not that we can get into much end times discussion without Stinky deleting posts, which is fine with me. We can't tell whether we're in end times or not; there have been plenty of times that matched prophesies as well as now does.

281 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:48:58am
282 red satellite  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:49:11am
Maulvi Umar, a spokesman for Pakistani Taliban groups, told The Associated Press that the arms factory attack was to avenge airstrikes on militants in Bajur, an extremist stronghold in the mountainous frontier region.

Hello AP? Umar here. Yah..fine...the kids are back in school...Praise Allah, summer is over. And yours?...good...

283 Sol Roth  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:52:37am

re: #280 Kosh's Shadow

I realize you weren't being serious, but I thought I'd bring this up anyway. Not that we can get into much end times discussion without Stinky deleting posts, which is fine with me. We can't tell whether we're in end times or not; there have been plenty of times that matched prophesies as well as now does.

You're right. It's important to prepare for those days because surely an end time comes to each of us. Thanks for sharing your Rabbi's observations. I find them interesting indeed.

284 anant  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:54:29am

I don't think it's accurate to characterize the ruling coalition as "Islamist." Corrupt yes, incompetent yes. But historically the biggest force for the Islamization of Pakistan has been the Pakistani army itself. I think it was a horrible mistake on Bush's part to assume that the Pakistani army was a force for secularism in Pakistan. Musharraf himself obviously wasn't that religious, but the military establishment there clearly is.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

285 NelsFree  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 11:36:28am

According to a news article I saw (video) some time ago, the Pakistani Nukes are in pieces, located across the country. With a threat identified of sufficient magnitude and not much immediacy, the pieces would be brought together and assembled. Certain parts are under higher security than others. No, I can't provide a link. There was no mention of the US being able to remove them given the current situation. If we recovered the fissile material and triggers, though, they can't go "boom".

286 Charles  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 11:38:13am

re: #284 anant

I don't think it's accurate to characterize the ruling coalition as "Islamist." Corrupt yes, incompetent yes. But historically the biggest force for the Islamization of Pakistan has been the Pakistani army itself. I think it was a horrible mistake on Bush's part to assume that the Pakistani army was a force for secularism in Pakistan. Musharraf himself obviously wasn't that religious, but the military establishment there clearly is.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I think "Islamist-dominated" may be a better term -- that's what I was aiming for.

287 J'accuzzi  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 12:30:02pm

Suicide bomber!

Every thief/embezzler for himself!

Steal what you can and hide!

288 Egfrow  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 1:40:38pm

If we don't get the Afghan border secured this type of activity will spill over quickly from Pakistan more than it is already.

289 HillJack  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 5:41:43pm

Just what the world needed! A nuclear capable country falling into complete chaos!

290 ploome hineni[deleted]  Thu, Aug 21, 2008 10:08:42pm

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