This thread could get, ah, interesting.

(Putting on helmet and face shield)

Shields up; phasers and photon torpedoes at the ready. Prepare for entry into the Neutral Zone.

Or not. Hey! The globular clusters are OVER HERE!

terminating a unique human life is just bad mojo, plain and simple. definate "kharmic" repercussion for that bad shit.

re: #2 lawhawk

Shields up; phasers and photon torpedoes at the ready. Prepare for entry into the Neutral Zone.

Abortion threads are the Kobayashi Maru of LGF.

Doesn't matter.

Hillary is going to steal the nomination in Denver because Barry has no stones. The democrats are in turmoil.

re: #1 Occasional Reader

The new LGF sure is different.

No way to avoid it it in this election and stay relevant. The way out is through.

Did someone say globular clusters?

Uh oh. Abortion. This is my signal to log off ASAP!

So , having an appreciation for the sanctity of life is now an "extreme" position?
Geez, harsh.

McCain implored Bush to join him in wanting to add exceptions for rape, incest, and danger to the life of the mother.

I'm with McCain on this one.

It was my understanding that any and all anti-abortion legislation that has been proposed by any republican has always contained the exceptions of rape/ incest/ well being of the mother.

Whats the big kerfuffle ?

If it is necessary to save the mother's life, an abortion is required under Judaic law. If abortions were completely banned, Jews would be unable to follow their law.

This is from the ABC? In that case, I would consider it nothing whatever more than disinformation and propaganda circulated by the Obama campaign in an attempt to strip away McCain's base.

re: #13 sattv4u2

It was my understanding that any and all anti-abortion legislation that has been proposed by any republican has always contained the exceptions of rape/ incest/ well being of the mother.

Whats the big kerfuffle ?

The GOP platform does not.

Both Democrats and Republicans are in no-win positions when it comes to abortion. The majority of the voters are somewhere between the two poles. How many truly want to ban abortion when the mother has been raped, or when the fetus has severe genetic abnormalities that mean it will have a short and miserable life if born?

How many are comfortable with partial birth abortion, in which a late-term, viable fetus is delivered far enough that the rest would be the work of one simple easy push, and is then killed instead of giving that last push?

Politically, though, somehow we find ourselves herded into camps that allow for no middle ground and no exceptions. It's insane.

"Many people think of him as a moderate," she added. "But when it comes out that he doesn't want to change this extreme, right-wing Republican platform, the word 'moderate' is going to disappear from any description of McCain."

My gut feeling is that this evaluation is balderdash. The election "market" has already absorbed the information that McCain is strongly opposed to abortion.

since when do the republicans want to ban abortions even if the life of the mother is in danger.

ABC is deflecting attention for the Obummers recent 5 point drop.

Yep, gonna be a long thread.
I'm voting McCain either way, but abortion is my #2 priority, after beating back barbarians. So I hope he sticks with someone committed to curbing abortion in America.
But either way, a # 2 priority is a #2 priority, and Barak is waaaaay behind on #1.

re: #11 mbruce

So , having an appreciation for the sanctity of life is now an "extreme" position?
Geez, harsh.

The extreme position is being against exceptions for rape, incest, etc.

Ok, I'll dive in first.....
It's ridiculous for the religious right to insist on purity regarding the abortion issue. Abortion is legal and is going to stay that way. Republicans have elected a long string of "pro-life" presidents and nothing has changed. It's a waste of effort, legalized abortion is here to stay.

You can't have your cake and eat it too unless you have a time machine.

re: #16 Charles

The GOP platform does not.

Thanks Charles, but as stated, i've never seen a proposal that didn't include it

Here's the thing about party platforms. Everyone puts countless hours into them - both Democrats and GOPers, and yet no one pays any attention to what they actually say or do one moment beyond the convention.

It's meaningless inasmuch as it carries no policy weight. Where it does matter is in the perceived power of the various factions within the parties to tell the nominee who they have to cater to most.

This has resulted in schizophrenic positions as you will find these documents to be catering to everyone and no one all at once.

Yet, there is one area in which they cause trouble - because the parties spend so much time on them, attack ads are bound to incorporate some of the language from the platforms to attack candidate positions.

Of all times and places, if the Republicans want to win the White House come November they will NOT go down this road. A hard line stance without even an exception for the life of the mother could easily sink McCain.

re: #23 Catttt

You can't have your cake and eat it too unless you have a time machine.

or two cakes

that's called the common sense approach, i think that most conservatives adhere to that.

I will say one last comment to stimulate discussion, however:

If you oppose abortion in general, then it IS the height of hypocrisy to OK abortion in cases of rape and incest. Because if you think that an embryo or fetus is a living full-fledged human being, then you think aborting it is murder. Yet what sin did the child of a rape or incest victim commit to merit being murdered? Nothing! You are murdering the child because of the sins of its father.

That is, if you oppose abortion in general.

re: #26 galloping granny

Of all times and places, if the Republicans want to win the White House come November they will NOT go down this road. A hard line stance without even an exception for the life of the mother could easily sink McCain.

McCain's not the problem here, the GOP is.

re: #26 galloping granny

Of all times and places, if the Republicans want to win the White House come November they will NOT go down this road. A hard line stance without even an exception for the life of the mother could easily sink McCain.

That's exactly what the FRC, Christian Coalition etc. are pushing for, though.

re: #29 zombie

Interesting observation.

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Ok, I'll dive in first.....
It's ridiculous for the religious right to insist on purity regarding the abortion issue. Abortion is legal and is going to stay that way. Republicans have elected a long string of "pro-life" presidents and nothing has changed. It's a waste of effort, legalized abortion is here to stay.

The president has almost no say in the abortion debate. It's just a "show issue."

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Agreed. This should not be a deal breaker on McCain.

re: #30 Irene NYC

McCain's not the problem here, the GOP is.

Didn't I say just that?

re: #17 lostlakehiker
I really don't think Republicans will (or should) ever push for bans without a life of mother exception, and politically I think rape and incest will always be allowable exceptions. But as Roe is interpreted today, any and every restriction is too much, and Dems are against even parental notificiation. Obama is, or was, against treating survivors.

re: #29 zombie

I take the rape and incest exception to mean that you put the mental health/life of the mother above the life of the unborn child.

re: #33 zombie

Agreed. It's even more insane for people to be upset about Lieberman as VP because of his abortion views. He will have absolutely no effect.

re: #35 buzzsawmonkey

You said the same thing I did, but more eloquently.

McCain is on record stating that he’d like the platform to include exceptions for rape, incest, and to save the life of the mother, and the social cons are vehemently opposed.

Well, it's not the babies' fault for the way they were conceived.

re: #26 galloping granny

Of all times and places, if the Republicans want to win the White House come November they will NOT go down this road. A hard line stance without even an exception for the life of the mother could easily sink McCain.

No one will EVER, let alone a pres. nominee, seriously try to enact a ban even in the case of a fatality for the mother. That is perfectly reasonable self-defense in a tragic situation.

re: #33 zombie

Indeed. And as I may have pointed out at some time in the past, even if Roe is overturned tomorrow, it doesn't mean that abortion will all of a sudden be illegal. It means that it will be up to the individual states to decide; and we'll be back to the Supreme Court to rule on whether those states have legislated unconstitutional restrictions within a generation.

Abortion is a moral compass question - and how the President addresses it is a guide as to how he views life and his obligations as the person entrusted to carrying out the laws of the United States.

re: #1 Occasional Reader

This thread could get, ah, interesting.

(Putting on helmet and face shield)

MARINES! WE ARE LEAVING!

re: #38 Irene NYC

I take the rape and incest exception to mean that you put the mental health/life of the mother above the life of the unborn child.

So we should murder a child because its mother will feel upset that it exists? Hey, why then can't every mother who's angry at her child just kill it?

Shades of honor killings.

It will be changing peoples' hearts and minds, not elections and court decisions, that will end abortion.

This is such a false flag, lets get back on track here, Russia is playing a dangerous game that could lead to all out war, the democrats are blocking any attempt to secure new sources of energy, Iran is about to acquire the bomb.

This is issue can be debated at a later time, it will never go away, so i think the important thing right now is to unite to defeat Obama.

The Catholic view is that all abortion is grave sin, and there are no exceptions. Not everyone makes exceptions - just want to clarify that.

re: #21 Charles

Although you (meaning ME) can hold to the extreme individually, we (meaning US) can't do it collectively. There will always be exceptions.

[comment aborted]

re: #48 Catttt

The Catholic view is that all abortion is grave sin, and there are no exceptions. Not everyone makes exceptions - just want to clarify that.

And the "health of the mother" exception has been expanded so much you could drive a truck through it.

re: #31 Charles

That's exactly what the FRC, Christian Coalition etc. are pushing for, though.

I know. And over on the Dem side, they have removed even the provision that acknowledged freedom of conscience on the issue, so they have angered a whole bunch of Catholics.

It is just ludicrous to me that in a time of war, economic crisis and apparently looming crisis with Russia, people would choose to make a deal breaker issue out of a hard line abortion stance. Or for that matter, an ex-democrat.

This is a must win election, more so than any election of my lifetime. We MUST win this election, because if Barrack Hussein Obama is elected, there will be huge changes to America, to our way of life, even to our guiding principles.

re: #34 Racer X

Agreed. This should not be a deal breaker on McCain.

Yes. Abortion is a much lower issue for me, and I actually don't see the exception that I find necessary (health of the mother) ever being blocked, especially where it comes in conflict with Judaic law, and therefore, practice of religion.

But this isn't going to matter if the US gives up to our enemies, as will happen with 0bama.

Give then the platform of their choice.

And give them Giuliani for VP.

re: #36 galloping granny
re: #30 Irene NYC

McCain's not the problem here, the GOP is.

Didn't I say just that?

granny, you said:

A hard line stance without even an exception for the life of the mother could easily sink McCain.

which I took to mean McCain could take that stance when he has specifically and repeatedly said the opposite. So, I take it you meant that if the GOP puts it on the platform against McCain's wishes, it could sink McCain?

I'll check back and see who got banned later.

Pro-Choice

re: #29 zombie

I will say one last comment to stimulate discussion, however:

If you oppose abortion in general, then it IS the height of hypocrisy to OK abortion in cases of rape and incest. Because if you think that an embryo or fetus is a living full-fledged human being, then you think aborting it is murder. Yet what sin did the child of a rape or incest victim commit to merit being murdered? Nothing! You are murdering the child because of the sins of its father.

That is, if you oppose abortion in general.

I would add, if you opposed abortion in general, on the grounds that human life begins at conception.

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say "hypocrisy", but I agree that there's a certain ethical cognitive dissonance to the position.

I believe all babies should live.

I believe John McCain should be President.

If never the twain shall meet, at least the twain shall come close enough.

re: #42 nikis-knight

No one will EVER, let alone a pres. nominee, seriously try to enact a ban even in the case of a fatality for the mother. That is perfectly reasonable self-defense in a tragic situation.

I agree. That is why it is so ludicrous to take such an intransigent stance on the issue.

re: #29 zombie

I will say one last comment to stimulate discussion, however:

If you oppose abortion in general, then it IS the height of hypocrisy to OK abortion in cases of rape and incest. Because if you think that an embryo or fetus is a living full-fledged human being, then you think aborting it is murder. Yet what sin did the child of a rape or incest victim commit to merit being murdered? Nothing! You are murdering the child because of the sins of its father.

That is, if you oppose abortion in general.

I agree, BUT it is not hypocrisy to take what is politically feasable. Intelligent conservatives need to remember we don't live in a perfect world and enact what legislation as can pass after the absurdity of RvW is overturned.

That's on a legislative level. On a personal level, I would insist, with as much influence as I have (which of course isn't absolute) that my wife not consider abortion even if she concieved via rape. We would probably not raise the child, but someone would, and it would be better than killing the baby for the father's sin. Rape is not a capital crime even for the perpetrator, why should it be for a bystander?

re: #45 zombie

So we should murder a child because its mother will feel upset that it exists? Hey, why then can't every mother who's angry at her child just kill it?

Shades of honor killings.

"Feeling upset" is not what I had in mind. Suicidal, however, is.

My only observation is a pragmatic one. Since Roe v. Wade this has been an effective wedge issue for the DNC which, most assuredly, is more pro-abortion than any Republican or RINO.

Want to prevent senseless death in America? Then vote for the party that won't get millions of us killed by destroying our national defense.

These are such red herrings, how about a compromise - drop the rape and incest exceptions - and allow "life of the mother" exception with independent medical review.

In any case, these circumstances are very rare - and I'm not sure if a doctor could make a call on the danger of a pregnancy to the life of the mother - certainly there are circumstances that incur risk - but it can be managed.

Add rape and incest to the capital punishment line.

So.... what did you all think of The Passion of The Christ?
/

The thing is that you can't get more extreme than the Democratic Party/Obama on abortion. Guarenteed dead baby, no matter what. Compared to that, almost any position that allows for some restriction is either moderate or, if you agree with the Democrats, extreme. So the Democrats are going to call the Republicans extremists no matter what the platform is.

It seems to me, then, that there is little to be gained by engaging in an intraparty fight over the issue. If we are going to lose votes for not being pro-abortion (and the Democrats are pro-abortion), we will lose them anyway. OTOH, if we decide to change the party platform to "moderate" our stance, then we will lose votes as the social conservatives stay home. These are votes that, currently, we are getting.

re: #11 mbruce

So , having an appreciation for the sanctity of life is now an "extreme" position?
Geez, harsh.

Militant pro life advocates should really examine their soul- if not their sanity- when they come to a conclusion that a fetus' life should take precedence over a living breathing mother's life.

re: #52 galloping granny

This is a must win election, more so than any election of my lifetime. We MUST win this election, because if Barrack Hussein Obama is elected, there will be huge changes to America, to our way of life, even to our guiding principles.

Just thought I'd repeat this.

re: #55 Irene NYC

re: #30 Irene NYC

McCain's not the problem here, the GOP is.

Didn't I say just that?

granny, you said:

which I took to mean McCain could take that stance when he has specifically and repeatedly said the opposite. So, I take it you meant that if the GOP puts it on the platform against McCain's wishes, it could sink McCain?

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. If the Republican party goes down the road of taking such a hard line antiabortion stance they will not allow an exception for the life of the mother, there are an awful lot of independents and democrats intending to vote for McCain who will not do so.

If we want to win, we have to be on the conservative side of moderate, rather than the right side of conservative.

re: #65 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

So.... what did you all think of The Passion of The Christ?
/

Or, Terry Schiavo?

re: #65 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

So.... what did you all think of The Passion of The Christ?
/

Any movie in which Monica Bellucci keeps all her clothes on = what's the point?

re: #65 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

So.... what did you all think of The Passion of The Christ?
/

I prefer to call it The Scottish Movie. I'm superstitious. /

I think Abortion should be a legal option under certain conditions.

The inability to exercise proper personal responsibility in the use of birth control should not be one of those conditions.

re: #33 zombie

Except in appointing judges. If we get a couple of more judges, Roe v. Wade can go the way of Dred Scott v. Sanford. That would be a good thing, IMHO. This should have never been a Federal issue.

Did anyone else see Kerri Walsh give a shout to the Prez after their Gold Medal win?

Women's Beach Volleyball

Nice.

re: #66 Iron Fist

The thing is that you can't get more extreme than the Democratic Party/Obama on abortion. Guarenteed dead baby, no matter what.

They're calling for mandatory abortion?!

What sort of justices would B.Hussein Obama bring to the Supreme Court?

What sort of justices would John McCain bring to the Supreme Court?

Based on that comparision, if you're pro-life, then McCain should get your vote.

re: #69 galloping granny

Agreed.
;)

re: #26 galloping granny

Of all times and places, if the Republicans want to win the White House come November they will NOT go down this road. A hard line stance without even an exception for the life of the mother could easily sink McCain.

granny, is this one of those legislative cases where it is impossible for those working on the bill to agree about terms?

I'm thinking of the poison pills some (centrist-RINO) Repubs might insist on inserting in such a proposal for 'the mother's MENTAL health' as exception in such an exemption, where the wording will not or cannot distinguish between a mother who is temporarily emotionally exhausted, and a mother who is severely clinically depressed/suicidal.

Do you think those clarifications have anything to do with the blocking of such exemptions for the GOP? (sorry if you posted about this and I missed it).

re: #72 Catttt

I prefer to call it The Scottish Movie. I'm superstitious. /

Braveheart? ;>)

I'm looking at the positive step that almost everyone now at least sees it as a tragic, horrible event for all involved. Even Hollywood movies increasingly show it as a sad option less taken. And, I personally have seen a lot less preaching and a lot more loving towards both lives involved in that decision. Condemnation and judgmental attitudes get you absolutely no where.

re: #64 de La Valette

These are such red herrings, how about a compromise - drop the rape and incest exceptions - and allow "life of the mother" exception with independent medical review.

In any case, these circumstances are very rare - and I'm not sure if a doctor could make a call on the danger of a pregnancy to the life of the mother - certainly there are circumstances that incur risk - but it can be managed.

Add rape and incest to the capital punishment line.

That might work if the life of the mother exception read "health and wellbeing" - since well being can be understood to mean rape, incest, etc.

re: #71 Occasional Reader

Any movie in which Monica Bellucci keeps all her clothes on = what's the point?

Ok, What about "Brotherhood of the Wolf" then?

re: #75 Racer X

Did anyone else see Kerri Walsh give a shout to the Prez after their Gold Medal win?

Women's Beach Volleyball

Nice.

Good for her! As a reward, I'm more than willing to give her a full body massage. In the name of patriotism, mind you.

I think with incest you can make the case for an exception on medical grounds, since children conceived from incest are at great risk of severe genetic damage.

re: #80 scottishbuzzsaw

Braveheart? ;>)

Lol. I knew someone would say that. :D

There are some good reasons for the rape exception. First, why should the rapist get the ultimate Darwinian reward for his crime? Second, why should the victim be stuck with the travails of pregnancy for having not been strong enough to fight the man off? Third, what sort of life can the child expect, if the mother is of a mind to abort but is blocked by the law?
Fourth, politics is the art of getting some of what you want by not reaching for all of it, failing, and coming up with nothing.

If McCain wins he will finally push through Bush's legalization of rape.

That's why he want's the exception.

re: #48 Catttt

The Catholic view is that all abortion is grave sin, and there are no exceptions. Not everyone makes exceptions - just want to clarify that.

Well, that's the Vatican's view. Catholics themselves have a wide variety of opinions on birth control, abortion and divorce. I'd be willing to bet that most Catholics ignore the Vatican on these issues. The Vatican's stance is just not practical in the modern world.

re: #87 lostlakehiker

well for the sake of being devil's advocate, people forget that you can put the baby up for adoption.

re: #22 Killgore Trout

Ok, I'll dive in first.....
It's ridiculous for the religious right to insist on purity regarding the abortion issue. Abortion is legal and is going to stay that way. Republicans have elected a long string of "pro-life" presidents and nothing has changed. It's a waste of effort, legalized abortion is here to stay.

I agree with you KT, but this will be a hot button issue for a long time to come. The passions on both sides flare at the mere mention of it. Even though, with each passing election, it appears to have less and less effect on the actual election.

re: #83 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ok, What about "Brotherhood of the Wolf" then?

Didn't see it. Is it a Clothed Monica movie, or a Nekkid Monica movie?

(I make an exception for Tears of the Sun, since it 1) has lots of cool CQB, and 2) she keeps her blouse on, but it get all, you know, steamy and semi-unbuttoned)

re: #76 Occasional Reader

They're calling for mandatory abortion?!

Alright, the only thing more extreme than the Dem's position on abortion is ending the human race.
Which isn't far from their environmental postion, actually.
I could see a convergence there, especially since dems have quite the lead of the dead person vote.

re: #88 Ben Hur

If McCain wins he will finally push through Bush's legalization of rape.

That's why he want's the exception.

Bush never legalized rape. McCain and Bush don't agree on Abortion. What were you trying to say?

re: #88 Ben Hur

If McCain wins he will finally push through Bush's legalization of rape.

That's why he want's the exception.

There's Something About Ben Hur

re: #90 pegcity

well for the sake of being devil's advocate, people forget that you can put the baby up for adoption.

Yes, there are plenty of people out there willing to adopt "saves". And don't only support the baby, but the mother, too.

...exceptions for rape, incest, and to save the life of the mother...

I am all for that. So what's the problem? Really?

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Well, that's the Vatican's view. Catholics themselves have a wide variety of opinions on birth control, abortion and divorce. I'd be willing to bet that most Catholics ignore the Vatican on these issues. The Vatican's stance is just not practical in the modern world.

My church (Catholic) has an outreach program for rape/ incest/ health of mother victims helping them find safe legal registered doctors or clinics where they could get an abortion.

re: #74 Iron Fist

Except in appointing judges. If we get a couple of more judges, Roe v. Wade can go the way of Dred Scott v. Sanford. That would be a good thing, IMHO. This should have never been a Federal issue.

But, as many have pointed out, abortion would still remain legal in about 80% of the United States. It would revert to being a states issue, and only a handful of southern states would outlaw abortion.

Never, ever, would there be a Federal law completely banning abortion nationwide -- an anti-Roe. I would fight that tooth and nail: I don't want politicians invading the doctor's office.

re: #94 hazzyday

Bush never legalized rape.

Ben is making fun of a brainless statement by Cameron Diaz prior to the 2004 election, to the effect that Bush was planning to legalize rape.

re: #85 Charles

I think with incest you can make the case for an exception on medical grounds, since children conceived from incest are at great risk of severe genetic damage.

Case law built upon that argument could also lead to abortion for Down's, cerebral palsy and other congenital problems don't you think?

Just thinktyping here.

re: #92 Occasional Reader

Didn't see it. Is it a Clothed Monica movie, or a Nekkid Monica movie?

(I make an exception for Tears of the Sun, since it 1) has lots of cool CQB, and 2) she keeps her blouse on, but it get all, you know, steamy and semi-unbuttoned)

Nekkid. She is an assassin for the Vatican hunting heretics in France using the cover of a brothel owner.

Iran's new RADAR-evading Stealth Fighter

re: #98 Hard Right

...exceptions for rape, incest, and to save the life of the mother...

I am all for that. So what's the problem? Really?

I pointed that out in my #13 , Charles pointed out that there are NO exeptions on the official Repub Platform

re: #82 galloping granny

Life, not quality of life - not mental health, a literal Solomon's choice - live baby/dead mom or dead mom/live baby. This is idea most people have about the exception and why they support it. It is not supported because: I need an abortion because the pregnancy will make me more depressed.

Take the polling data and write the platform targeted at the language people understand, not the "code words" of the campaigners.

re: #94 hazzyday

Bush never legalized rape. McCain and Bush don't agree on Abortion. What were you trying to say?

FINALLY PUSH THROUGH AS IN, NOT YET PUSHED THROUGH.

READ SLOWER.

re: #100 zombie

But, as many have pointed out, abortion would still remain legal in about 80% of the United States.

The platform plank in question is not, apparently, simply to overturn Roe, but to pass a constitutional amendment banning abortion, nationwide.

The Republican platform needs reforming. The Dems continue to embrace extremism at a breakneck pace. In less than a generation they have managed to become unrecognizable as a party even interested (much less committed) in the good of this nation. They consider themselves an international organization determined to surrender our economy, military, resources, and sovereignty to "one-world government" organizations, under the guise of "protecting the global environment", "respecting other cultures", "fighting global poverty", and "promoting world peace". The destruction of our nation as we know it is a critical step in their goal, as our power and success are direct results of our system's superiority to their own utopian fantasies.

So McCain wants to attract more people to the Republican party who still love what this country stands for, and is willing to smooth some of the party's roughest edges to do it. I say more power to him. I'm not opposed to a bigger tent. The party's dinosaurs just need to know when it's time to retire to the tar pits.

re: #82 galloping granny

That might work if the life of the mother exception read "health and wellbeing" - since well being can be understood to mean rape, incest, etc.

Seems to me that "wellbeing" could mean absolutely anything.

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Killgore - I call you on that one. According to the Church, life begins at conception. Catholics can choose to believe that or not. If they choose to believe it, and then circumvent the results of conception, they have committed a grave sin. This has been the stance of the Church for centuries. On this point, society is no different than it has ever been.

Looks like Christian Conservatives are giving McCain his marching orders.

re: #85 Charles

I think with incest you can make the case for an exception on medical grounds, since children conceived from incest are at great risk of severe genetic damage.

Try saying that in the Arab world. Genetic studies have shown that over 50% of Arabs in some countries are either the product of cousin-cousin marriages, or of incest -- or are the second-generation offspring of cousin-cousin or incest.

Amazing statistic.

re: #87 lostlakehiker

There are some good reasons for the rape exception. First, why should the rapist get the ultimate Darwinian reward for his crime? Second, why should the victim be stuck with the travails of pregnancy for having not been strong enough to fight the man off? Third, what sort of life can the child expect, if the mother is of a mind to abort but is blocked by the law?
Fourth, politics is the art of getting some of what you want by not reaching for all of it, failing, and coming up with nothing.

1-Are we really going to make policy based on evolution? Nature is not the place to get morals or set social policy. Down that road lie "Three generations of imbeciles is enough"
2-She certainly should NOT be, but the only alternative is worse.
3-The life of any other adopted child, which in most cases is to be treasured.
4-Agree 100%

I am not so vested in this one issue to make it a litmus test. There are other issues that are more important for me. Yet, there are groups that think that this is the all-consuming issue that must take precedence come election season, even when there's a war going on, the economy is taking a lickin' but keeping on tickin', Russia is on the move, Pakistan is teetering on the brink, and the Middle East is... well... it's the Middle East.

re: #8 Charles

No way to avoid it it in this election and stay relevant. The way out is through.

You are very right, and very brave...

re: #103 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Nekkid. She is an assassin for the Vatican hunting heretics in France using the cover of a brothel owner.

It's just been added to my list!

re: #99 sattv4u2

My church (Catholic) has an outreach program for rape/ incest/ health of mother victims helping them find safe legal registered doctors or clinics where they could get an abortion.

Wow, do you think your archdiocese is OK with that or do they just choose to not get involved?

re: #87 lostlakehiker

Third, what sort of life can the child expect, if the mother is of a mind to abort but is blocked by the law? .

That, my friend, is the primary argument of the entire "pro-choice" side, rape or no rape.

re: #8 Charles

No way to avoid it it in this election and stay relevant. The way out is through.

That's true, but there are threads when all I can say is, I'm so grateful I have an actual job that needs doing.

re: #113 zombie

Try saying that in the Arab world. Genetic studies have shown that over 50% of Arabs in some countries are either the product of cousin-cousin marriages, or of incest -- or are the second-generation offspring of cousin-cousin or incest.

Amazing statistic.

ANd we wonder why 1/2 the population is F'in crazy?

“If he were to change the party platform,” to account for exceptions such as rape, incest or risk to the mother’s life, “I think that would be political suicide,” Tony Perkins, the president of the conservative Family Research Council, told ABC News in May. “I think he would be aborting his own campaign because that is such a critical issue to so many Republican voters and the Republican brand is already in trouble.”

Awww crap. Is this going to be another election where the abortion issue costs the Republicans the election?
Great move Perkins! Don't vote for McCain because of one issue and let Obama have his way. That will show everyone! Bah!

re: #104 Ben Hur

Iran's new RADAR-evading Stealth Fighter

HA! Isn't that formation in California, the same park where the Star Trek's "Gorn" episode was filmed?

re: #97 Ward Cleaver

Yes, there are plenty of people out there willing to adopt "saves". And don't only support the baby, but the mother, too.

As a former foster parent and a current volunteer for mothers in correctional/mental health institutions who are separated from their infants and children in foster homes, I always wish that those who are activist about preventing abortions (and I am one) would also be a little more activist in providing emotional, physical, and material support for mothers at risk who choose to have and raise their infants. Just a few hours per month is all it takes....

re: #119 Killgore Trout

Wow, do you think your archdiocese is OK with that or do they just choose to not get involved?

The Arch knows about it. There are other churches in the area that share that info

re: #125 Sol Roth

HA! Isn't that formation in California, the same park where the Star Trek's "Gorn" episode was filmed?

I don't know.

re: #112 Maximu§

Looks like Christian Conservatives are giving McCain his marching orders.

I though McCain was a Maverick? He'll do what he wants, people are just making their positions clear. But even if he was a puppet of the dreaded Christian Right, he still wins over the puppet of Kos et al.

re: #125 Sol Roth

HA! Isn't that formation in California, the same park where the Star Trek's "Gorn" episode was filmed?

The Iranians have also successfully constructed a kind of rudimentary lathe.

re: #115 lawhawk

I am not so vested in this one issue to make it a litmus test. There are other issues that are more important for me. Yet, there are groups that think that this is the all-consuming issue that must take precedence come election season, even when there's a war going on, the economy is taking a lickin' but keeping on tickin', Russia is on the move, Pakistan is teetering on the brink, and the Middle East is... well... it's the Middle East.

Agreed. We are not electing a King.

re: #108 Occasional Reader

The platform plank in question is not, apparently, simply to overturn Roe, but to pass a constitutional amendment banning abortion, nationwide.

If true, that's just nuts.

The abortion debate is the wrong debate.

Abortion is typical liberal solution to avoidance of personal responsibility.

The debate needs to move to the cause, not the consequences.

Medical science has made amazing advances we actually know how that tissue / fetus / baby gets in there!

Rule one:
Guys unless you want to be a daddy, raise support and training up a new human being keep the wick dry, the zipper zipped! What's so hard about that?

Gals unless you want to be a mommy, keep them panties on. Do you really want that guy to be the father? Really?

When we conservative argue abortion, we are fighting on ground the opponents have chosen. It's the wrong place to fight this fight.

The place to fight is on our ground of liberty, that two sided coin of freedom and responsibility. Reagan should fighting on core conservative principals wins the conservatives and enough of the squishy middle to WIN BIG!

That's my 2¢ on the issue.

re: #76 Occasional Reader

Obama voted against a provision that called explicitly for support of a child that survived an abortion. In effect, Obama is for a guarentee that if a woman attempts to have a late term abortion and that attempt fails (i.e. a live baby results), the child should be killed. He's tried to duck that issue in the Presidential election, with his now infamous "That's above my pay grade" duck, but his voting record as an Illinois Senator stands for itself.

That is how Obama should be judged on the issue.

re: #113 zombie

Genetic studies have shown that over 50% of Arabs in some countries are either the product of cousin-cousin marriages, or of incest -- or are the second-generation offspring of cousin-cousin or incest.

Explains a lot.

re: #131 NoSubmission

Agreed. We are not electing a King.

Michelle disagrees!

re: #99 sattv4u2

My church (Catholic) has an outreach program for rape/ incest/ health of mother victims helping them find safe legal registered doctors or clinics where they could get an abortion.

That's sad. In direct defiance of Church teaching.

Did anyone see the CNNs Revealed program.

I only watched some of McCain.

I figured Baruch's would be 5 minutes long.

THE SECOND SENTENCE WAS SARCASM, YET NOT.

re: #111 Cap'n DOC

CATHOLIC DISSENT ON CHURCH RULES FOUND

The poll, taken to test attitudes in the United States as the world's Roman Catholic bishops prepared to convene yesterday at the Vatican for an extraordinary synod, indicates that 68 percent of American Catholics favor the use of artificial means of contraception, 52 percent favor the ordination of women as priests, 63 percent favor marriage for priests and 73 percent favor remarriage for divorced people. These attitudes contradict church doctrine.

Look around the pews on Sunday, 50-70% of the congregation would disappear.

re: #115 lawhawk

the economy is taking a lickin' but keeping on tickin', Russia is on the move, Pakistan is teetering on the brink, and the Middle East is....

...exploding
Violence flarin’, bullets loadin’
You’re old enough to kill, but not for votin’
You don’t believe in war, but what’s that gun you’re totin’
And even the Jordan River has bodies floatin’

But you tell me
Over and over and over again, my friend
Ah, you don’t believe
We’re on the eve
of destruction

re: #137 Ward Cleaver

That's sad. In direct defiance of Church teaching.

Not really. In that human life is sacred, how do you decide between the life of an unborn child and a mother?

re: #136 sattv4u2

Michelle disagrees!

She is free to disagree. I would hate to see Obama elected and [gulp] re-elected on this issue because of that.

re: #129 nikis-knight

I though McCain was a Maverick? He'll do what he wants, people are just making their positions clear. But even if he was a puppet of the dreaded Christian Right, he still wins over the puppet of Kos et al.

Without the Christian base, McCain is finished and he knows it. Abortion is the hard line they have drawn in the sand and McCain would be wise not to cross it.

re: #113 zombie

Add those to those molested as children, and what do you get:

Saudi Arabia
Iran
Afghanistan
FATA (Pakistan)
Sudan
Yemen
Somalia

re: #79 runrabbitrun

granny, is this one of those legislative cases where it is impossible for those working on the bill to agree about terms?

I'm thinking of the poison pills some (centrist-RINO) Repubs might insist on inserting in such a proposal for 'the mother's MENTAL health' as exception in such an exemption, where the wording will not or cannot distinguish between a mother who is temporarily emotionally exhausted, and a mother who is severely clinically depressed/suicidal.

Do you think those clarifications have anything to do with the blocking of such exemptions for the GOP? (sorry if you posted about this and I missed it).

I think that abortion is one issue that has severely divided this country throughout most of my lifetime. And I don't think it is one whit closer to being solved than it was in 1968. Truthfully, I do not think that it will ever be solved. Let me give you just one reason -

If you are Catholic, you are taught that the church's word is absolute and that abortion is absolutely unacceptable under any circumstances. That includes rape, incest, 8 year old pregnant "women", the need for the mother to receive chemo - absolutely forbidden under any circumstance. When I was young, many of our hospitals were Catholic. Non Catholic women would sometimes move heaven and earth to have their baby anywhere but a Catholic hospital, because you were told up front that if anything went wrong during the delivery the medical people would save your child's life (if possible) even at the expense of your own life - no matter how many other children you had at home.

Judaism, on the other hand, teaches that it is wrong to not abort the child under certain circumstances, chemo being one of those.

If you take a completely hard line stance, then you are supporting the Catholic view - but putting our Jewish population in a position of being required to either break the law or sin in the eyes of G_d. The adoption in law of either extreme position violates our most basic principle - Freedom of Religion.

I don't think it has to do with clarifications and interpretations of words at all. I think it has to do with some inherent differences in what people believe to be truth, morality, God's Law. We cannot legislate those differences away, nor can we reconcile them.

re: #99 sattv4u2

My church (Catholic) has an outreach program for rape/ incest/ health of mother victims helping them find safe legal registered doctors or clinics where they could get an abortion.

Your priest wouldn't happen to be named PFLEGER, would he?

re: #134 Iron Fist

Yeah, I know, I was just throwin' a spitball at you.

re: #125 Sol Roth

HA! Isn't that formation in California, the same park where the Star Trek's "Gorn" episode was filmed?

Vasquez Rocks

re: #117 Occasional Reader

It's just been added to my list!

A bit slow in parts, but the action scenes make up for it.

Here is the trailer

Wow!
They're flying over Joshua Tree state park
San Bernardino Co.?
We used to PARTY THERE!
We're doomed!
lol

If I wanted to live in a theocracy, I'd move to Saudi Arabia.

re: #85 Charles

I think with incest you can make the case for an exception on medical grounds, since children conceived from incest are at great risk of severe genetic damage.

But that opens up the whole can of worms of fetal diagnosis of conditions like Down's Syndrome.

re: #124 Outrider

Awww crap. Is this going to be another election where the abortion issue costs the Republicans the election?
Great move Perkins! Don't vote for McCain because of one issue and let Obama have his way. That will show everyone! Bah!

That is the issue. Abortion is just too emotional.
If an exception for rape , incest & the health of the mother would keep people away from McCain, it makes no sense.
It is counter intuitive to pass on voting for McCain who has always been pro-life, thereby helping to elect Obama who would not even vote against infanticide.

I think this is still current: Republican Party on Abortion:

Ban abortion with Constitutional amendment

We say the unborn child has a fundamental right to life. We support a human life amendment to the Constitution and we endorse legislation that the 14th Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children. Our purpose is to have legislative and judicial protection of that right against those who perform abortions. We oppose using public revenues for abortion and will not fund organizations which advocate it. We support the appointment of judges who respect the sanctity of innocent human life.

Source: Republican Platform adopted at GOP National Convention Aug 12, 2000

Well there is no way of resolving this issue in this forum even though most of us are reasonably like minded - you can see the way this is breaking. I am in the camp that believes life begins at conception. I don't think I am an extremist but frankly don't care if I am perceived so because if you are a believer it doesn't much matter if others do not agree. On the other side however is a lot of "nuance", that is carving out exceptions here and there. Since we cannot agree on policy, perhaps the better discussion is what will be more successful in the general. I am having a hard time getting the notion that a nuanced VP will aid the GOP...

re: #87 lostlakehiker

Third, what sort of life can the child expect, if the mother is of a mind to abort but is blocked by the law?

Try that line of arguement on all of the adopted children out there. See if they agree that they're better off dead.

150 already? Charles knows how to draw a stampede. I refuse to be a single issue voter and I have strong feelings about this topic.

re: #139 Killgore Trout

CATHOLIC DISSENT ON CHURCH RULES FOUND

Look around the pews on Sunday, 50-70% of the congregation would disappear.

attitudes change ? thats called ,,, ummm, whats the word ,,,, oh yes ,,

EVOLUTION

re: #87 lostlakehiker

There are some good reasons for the rape exception. First, why should the rapist get the ultimate Darwinian reward for his crime? Second, why should the victim be stuck with the travails of pregnancy for having not been strong enough to fight the man off? Third, what sort of life can the child expect, if the mother is of a mind to abort but is blocked by the law?
Fourth, politics is the art of getting some of what you want by not reaching for all of it, failing, and coming up with nothing.

And do remember that childbirth, even in this day and age, is not a risk free proposition by a long shot. Women die - even in the USA - every single day during childbirth. To force a rape victim to then continue to risk her life is true punishment.

Single-issue voters are the bane of politics. I'm pro-life (with the usual exceptions), but I'm frustrated by the shrill pro-lifers who don't seem to realize that Obama will appoint judges who will do their best to undermine everything they believe in. They just care about their personal moral superiority. They richly earn the label "self-righteous" that the left likes to slap on every conservative.

re: #120 zombie

I cannot imagine how a raped woman can be asked to carry the rapist's child. Even if she gives it up for adoption, I cannot imagine it.

The personal grace of a woman who would do that is awe-inspring, but I would not dream of legislating it.

re: #146 wolfie

Your priest wouldn't happen to be named PFLEGER, would he?

why did you spiit at me

re: #137 Ward Cleaver

See my #139.....

But 55 percent of American Catholics departed from church teaching because they would allow abortion in cases of rape and incest or if the procedure was necessary to save a woman's life. The church opposes abortion in all cases, a position echoed by only 15 percent of the Catholics sampled.

The church is out of step with it's flock which brings up an interesting question; Who's in charge? I think religion is a service industry. The customer is "always" right.

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Well, that's the Vatican's view. Catholics themselves have a wide variety of opinions on birth control, abortion and divorce. I'd be willing to bet that most Catholics ignore the Vatican on these issues. The Vatican's stance is just not practical in the modern world.

I don't think you realize that observant Catholics actually - you know - pay attention to the Church's teachings on what constitutes grave sin. Catholics who have fallen away may not do so, but even many of them hold strong beliefs on this subject. They are much more likely to bend on contraception than on abortion. For a great many Catholics of all stripes, this is a deeply held belief, not something that you can just throw out.

I had a lady call me one day from the Democratic Party. We got to talking. I have a kind of gift for getting people off the subject. :D

It turned out she was a young Catholic woman from Chicago. She was quite frustrated, it turned out, with the Dem platform. She opened up and expressed that she had deep misgivings about the Dems, and she brought up the abortion issue herself. Even though she was working for the Dems, she could not see herself voting for a pro-choice candidate.

re: #113 zombie

Try saying that in the Arab world. Genetic studies have shown that over 50% of Arabs in some countries are either the product of cousin-cousin marriages, or of incest -- or are the second-generation offspring of cousin-cousin or incest.

Amazing statistic.

And now Britain have this problem. Minister warns of 'inbred' Muslims.

re: #151 MandyManners

If I wanted to live in a theocracy, I'd move to Saudi Arabia.

I understand your point, but every law we have on the books is based on SOME value system. Which one do we use here?

re: #139 Killgore Trout

CATHOLIC DISSENT ON CHURCH RULES FOUND

Look around the pews on Sunday, 50-70% of the congregation would disappear.

Well, only around a third of registered parishioners regularly attend Mass in a typical diocese, and I imagine the pro-aborts form the majority of the other two-thirds. Just because many people think a sin is okay is no reason to accept it. Slavery was legal for 77 years, but that didn't make it moral.

wouldn't it be nice to pull back from the extremity of partial birth abortion, at least?

No one bleeding yet, I assume.

re: #148 Racer X

Vasquez Rocks

She sure does!

(oh... Vasquez, not Velasquez... well, whatever)

re: #159 buzzsawmonkey

You could move to Israel instead; according to many leftists, it is a theocracy--but you'd have a much better time.

Better clothing for sure.

...as extreme social conservatives rattle their sabres.

I know this is a topic that's normally to be avoided at all costs here on LGF, but why is objection to abortion considered an "extreme" position? I just don't get it.

re: #141 sattv4u2

Not really. In that human life is sacred, how do you decide between the life of an unborn child and a mother?

You choose the mother, of course, but "life" is very much an edge case as practiced today.
I think that that certainly should be made clear in the Republican platform. I think people fear a gradual weakening of resolve that this would indicate, but regardless of whether that is the case, it is the more moral thing (to abort if doing so saves the life of the mother). Other than that edge case, I support ending abortion (though I'm sure I've made that clear).

re: #141 sattv4u2

Not really. In that human life is sacred, how do you decide between the life of an unborn child and a mother?

The official Catholic church has for many a long year considered the life of the unborn child to be paramount to the life of the mother under every circumstance.

re: #148 Racer X

Vasquez Rocks

Yeah, that looks like it. The scene (Blazing Saddles) were the Waco Kid and Taggart's Gang has it in the background too IIRC.

But, I didn't know Charles was involved in Iran's stealth program!

Big Gorn Is Ripping Us Off!

re: #161 doppelganglander
Concur, I will vote for McCain paired with Romney or Palin or Hunter or Giuliani or Lieberman or Bugsy Malone to protect America from a clear and present danger.

re: #167 eschew_obfuscation

I understand your point, but every law we have on the books is based on SOME value system. Which one do we use here?

One that stays the hell out of my body and my conscience.

re: #152 CyanSnowHawk

But that opens up the whole can of worms of fetal diagnosis of conditions like Down's Syndrome.

There's already studies out there that say that over 90% of Down's Syndrome babies are aborted.

re: #87 lostlakehiker

There are some good reasons for the rape exception. First, why should the rapist get the ultimate Darwinian reward for his crime? Second, why should the victim be stuck with the travails of pregnancy for having not been strong enough to fight the man off? Third, what sort of life can the child expect, if the mother is of a mind to abort but is blocked by the law?
Fourth, politics is the art of getting some of what you want by not reaching for all of it, failing, and coming up with nothing.

Also, there is the danger that not allowing the rape exception could provoke obsessed men to stalk and rape those women with whom they've become obsessed, secure in the knowledge that should the rape result in a pregnancy (and they may seek info. on the target's menstrual cycle in order to maximize such chances), that even if they are apprehended and imprisoned, the state will enforce an enduring genetic connection/link between the two of them.

In my opinion forbidding a rape exception enables and empowers obsessed stalker rapists and places the women with whom they become obsessed at much graver risk.

OFFICIAL Appaloosa Movie Trailer

re: #126 runrabbitrun

There are some very fine organizations providing support for young women who become pregnant; they are absolutely wonderful.

If only their appeals weren't on pink paper!

re: #151 MandyManners

If I wanted to live in a theocracy, I'd move to Saudi Arabia.

I'm sure that was a common sentiment in the antebellum American South, as well.
Protecting living humans =/= answering to the priesthood.

If anyone has sent this before, READ IT AGAIN

EARNING A DESK

Back in September of 2005, on the first day of school, Martha Cothren, a

social studies school teacher at Robinson High School in Little Rock, did

something not to be forgotten.

On the first day of school, with the permission of the school

superintendent, the principal and the building supervisor, she removed all

of the desks out of her classroom. When the first period kids entered the

room they discovered that there were no desks. Looking around, confused,

they asked, 'Ms. Cothren, where're our desks?'

She replied, 'You can't have a desk until you tell me what you have done to

earn the right to sit at a desk.' They thought, 'Well, maybe it's our

grades.' 'No,' she said. 'Maybe it's our behavior.' She told them, 'No,

it's not even your behavior.'

And so, they came and went, the first period, second period, third period,

still no desks in the classroom.

By early afternoon television news crews had started gathering in Ms.

Cothren's classroom to report about this crazy teacher who had taken all

the desks out of her room.

The final period of the day came and as the puzzled students found seats on

the floor of the deskless classroom, Martha Cothren said, 'Throughout the

day no one has been able to tell me just what he/she has done to earn the

right to sit at the desks that are ordinarily found in this classroom. Now

I am going to tell you.'

At this point, Martha Cothren went over to the door of her classroom and

opened it. Twenty-seven (27) U.S. Veterans, all in uniforms, walked into

that classroom, each one carrying a school desk. The Vets began placing the

school desks in rows, and then they would walk over and stand alongside the

wall. By the time the last Soldier had set the final desk in place those

kids started to understand, perhaps for the first time in their lives, just

how the right to sit at those desks had been earned.

Martha said, 'You didn't earn the right to sit at these desks. These heroes

did it for you. They placed the desks here for you. Now, it's up to you

to sit in them. It is your responsibility to learn, to be good students,

to be good citizens. They paid the price so that you could have the freedom

to get an education. Don't ever forget it.'

This is a true story.... If you can read this - thank a teacher! If you

can read it in English - thank a soldier! If you can understand the

message - Thank God!

A veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is

someone who, at one point in their life, signed a blank check made payable

to 'The United States of America', for an amount of 'up to and including my

life.' That is Honor, and there are way too many people in this country who no

longer understand it.

///Now that you have.....Thank a Vet-and John McCain

re: #165 Catttt

They are much more likely to bend on contraception than on abortion.

See #164. Only 15% of Catholics agree with the Vatican.

re: #174 nikis-knight

re: #175 galloping granny

You choose the mother, of course,

the life of the unborn child to be paramount to the life of the mother under every circumstance.

You two may want to talk !

re: #156 Iron Fist

Try that line of arguement on all of the adopted children out there. See if they agree that they're better off dead.

You cannot force women who have been raped to risk their lives giving birth and then legislate that they adopt out the children. That would be completely contradictory to our most basic principles as a nation.

re: #163 sattv4u2

why did you spiit at me

And why did that horse just whinny?

re: #164 Killgore Trout

"Who's in charge? I think religion is a service industry. The customer is "always" right."

I guess your not Catholic. We are the sheep (and some sheepdogs), not the shepherds.

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven,
was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the Virgin Mary
and became truly human.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father [and the Son],
who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Nicene Creed, 325AD

re: #175 galloping granny

The official Catholic church has for many a long year considered the life of the unborn child to be paramount to the life of the mother under every circumstance.

I am always amazed by the selflessness of women I've read about who put off chemotherapy or other treatments (sometimes ending their own lives), in deference to their unborn children.

re: #177 lifeofthemind

Concur, I will vote for McCain paired with Romney or Palin or Hunter or Giuliani or Lieberman or Bugsy Malone to protect America from a clear and present danger.

I would almost consider voting for McCain with Hillary as VP to save America from the clear and present danger that Obama represents.

re: #185 Killgore Trout

See #164. Only 15% of Catholics agree with the Vatican.

I wonder what percent of Republicans agree with the Republican platform? (no abortion under any circumstance)

Just an aside - ultimately, abortion is a question of conscience, for the woman, the doctor, the nurses involved.

You cannot legislate for conscience.

Nobody who is against abortion in any circumstance is forced to have one.

Seen from abroad, this is a non-issue, which diverts from more important ones. If ultra-conservatives want their egos massaged to the detriment of electing McCain (who has made his stance clear anyway), then the party bigwigs need to twist some arms, pronto, behind closed doors.

Thought this topic was verboten!

Not an issue that I discuss, me having a "special purpose" and all.

re: #76 Occasional Reader

They're calling for mandatory abortion?!

No, that would be the Chinese, who are anti-choice in the other direction.

re: #166 Irene NYC

And now Britain have this problem. Minister warns of 'inbred' Muslims.

Give the Catholic church this much credit. They forced through unpopular rules against consanguinity during the MIddle Ages. It played havoc with the type of dynastic politics and inbreeding to protect property that all clan based patriarchies are subject to.

re: #173 Cartman

I know this is a topic that's normally to be avoided at all costs here on LGF, but why is objection to abortion considered an "extreme" position? I just don't get it.

The extreme position is being against exceptions for rape, incest, etc.

re: #185 Killgore Trout

See #164. Only 15% of Catholics agree with the Vatican.

Thankfully some organizations are not poll-driven.

re: #186 sattv4u2

re: #175 galloping granny

You choose the mother, of course,

the life of the unborn child to be paramount to the life of the mother under every circumstance.

You two may want to talk !

I did not say I agree with that position sat - just that this is what the official doctrine of the Catholic Church is and has been for an extremely long time.

Yeah. I can see where some of the anti-abortion groups have a lot of respect for human life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_viol ence

re: #163 sattv4u2

why did you spiit at me

LOL !
Geepers! You're right!
My apologies !

re: #162 Dianna

I cannot imagine how a raped woman can be asked to carry the rapist's child. Even if she gives it up for adoption, I cannot imagine it.

The personal grace of a woman who would do that is awe-inspring, but I would not dream of legislating it.

I would agree and be happy to compromise the point if the majority of cases for birth control reasons would be stopped.
But giving life would be the good thing to do, which is often the harder choice.

re: #168 Ward Cleaver

Just because many people think a sin is okay is no reason to accept it. Slavery was legal for 77 years, but that didn't make it moral.

That cuts both ways; just because a church endorses something doesn't make it moral either. My point is that if the church were to enforce adherence to it's position on abortion 85% of Americans would be excommunicated. That's a pretty substantial reduction, the Church would almost cease to exist.

re: #187 galloping granny

You cannot force women who have been raped to risk their lives giving birth and then legislate that they adopt out the children. That would be completely contradictory to our most basic principles as a nation.

Not to those who see a woman as a walking uterus.

I also think there is a difference between incest and rape cases-not because of genetic disorders-although that is a good point (good point is awful wording of course). Making a woman bear her own sister/brother or niece/nephew etc...You need Solomonic wisdom to navigate such a horror.

Abortion is the law of the land, and has been (by judicial fiat or not) for 35 years. It has already served to reshape our demographics and its effects cannot be undone. But even more significant is the fact that pretty much anyone under 40 considers sex without procreation to be a "right". Abortion is, culturally speaking, considered to be the last line of defense in that line of thinking, the "final" contraceptive if you will. You can no more ban abortions in this country that you can ban condoms. Nobody will win national office by making turning back the clock on not just Roe v Wade, but 4 decades of post-sexual-revolution acceptance of recreational sex, as a cornerstone of their campaign. The Republican platform language dealing with abortion is an anachronism; a throwback to a fight already lost a very long time ago. It's time to let it go.

re: #178 MandyManners

One that stays the hell out of my body and my conscience.

So, do you disagree with treating the murder of a pregnant woman as a double murder? (i.e. Lacy Peterson)

re: #199 galloping granny

I did not say I agree with that position sat - just that this is what the official doctrine of the Catholic Church is and has been for an extremely long time.

I understand ,, and for decades it really has been "wink wink ,, nod nod" ,, Yes, EVERY priest would counsel against an abortion ,,, BUT, he would also consult and console during and after one (well ,,not the ACTUAL "DURING" ,,,,, but during the process ,,, oh hell you know what I mean !

re: #162 Dianna

I cannot imagine how a raped woman can be asked to carry the rapist's child. Even if she gives it up for adoption, I cannot imagine it.

The personal grace of a woman who would do that is awe-inspring, but I would not dream of legislating it.

i remember reading several yrs. ago abt. a woman who was raped. she thought the hospital had handled the possibility of her having been impregnated but found out a couple of months later that she was indeed w/ child. she did not, at that point, opt for an abortion and delivered a healthy baby. a cute little girl who the woman was raising.
it is such an odd situation. i'm thinking the mother really had to overcome some difficult issues. i think you summed it up. she possessed some personal grace.
i don't think i could do it. carry a child after i was raped. that's almost too much to ask of most women.

re: #189 de La Valette

I was raised Catholic and much of my family still is.

Frankly, the GOP platform can say just about anything on this issue and the Democrats can say nothing given Obama's vote on the Born Alive Act.

Would it not be the height of hypocrisy for Obama or the Democrats in general to charge McCain or the GOP with being extremists after, in essence if not in intent, supporting infanticide? Is someone going to seriously argue that infanticide is the less extreme option?

Thanks to Obama, this issue has been taken out of the Democratic arsenal and put into the Republican arsenal.

re: #200 Outrider

Yeah. I can see where some of the anti-abortion groups have a lot of respect for human life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-re lated_violence

Those people are out on the fringe, and are not supported by any of the pro-lifers I know. Everything should done in charity and love, not hatred and violence. What about the violence committed against over 45 million Americans (and counting)?

re: #178 MandyManners

One that stays the hell out of my body and my conscience.

No one cares what you do with your body until you put another person there.

re: #203 Killgore Trout

That cuts both ways; just because a church endorses something doesn't make it moral either. My point is that if the church were to enforce adherence to it's position on abortion 85% of Americans would be excommunicated. That's a pretty substantial reduction, the Church would almost cease to exist.

Better to be small and moral than large and immoral.

re: #207 eschew_obfuscation

So, do you disagree with treating the murder of a pregnant woman as a double murder? (i.e. Lacy Peterson)

Did I say that I did? Don't put wors into my mouth.

re: #190 Ward Cleaver

I am always amazed by the selflessness of women I've read about who put off chemotherapy or other treatments (sometimes ending their own lives), in deference to their unborn children.

Truthfully, I am not. Cancer treatment for most cancers in most people is most of the time a crap shoot. Very experimental. If you choose the right option the first time around you might find a wonderful prize behind door #1, but if you choose the wrong one, you might actually put yourself in a position where you cannot receive some other kind of treatment because of the first one.

More than a few people adopt not to treat their cancers at all - even if it means they will die in fairly short order.

re: #197 Charles

The extreme position is being against exceptions for rape, incest, etc.

I see. This is an issue that gets very confusing to me, at times. Seems to be a lot of nuanced political wrangling going on. Due to personal convictions and circumstances I'd best stay out of this discussion! Thanks for the clarification, Charles.

re: #216 MandyManners

Did I say that I did? Don't put wors into my mouth.

Or, words, for that matter.

re: #184 Dizzy26

If you can read this

Thank a teacher...

If you are reading it in English....

THANK A SOLDIER!

re: #197 Charles

The extreme position is being against exceptions for rape, incest, etc.

I very pro-life but not that extreme. Would I prefer the child be born? Yes. But I'm not quite willing to use force of law to make it happen.

What I would prefer is this.
The punishment for rape and incest be so extreme, that should some one commit those crimes, they only do it once.
I can live with a dead rapist on my conscience.
I have more trouble living with an innocent child on my conscience.

re: #214 nikis-knight

No one cares what you do with your body until you put another person there.

People need to mind their own fucking business.

re: #197 Charles

The extreme position is being against exceptions for rape, incest, etc.

Or on the other side, mandating abortion.

re: #215 Ward Cleaver

Better to be small and moral than large and immoral.

Bill Clinton been hitting McDonalds and the interns again?

This thread will hit 1000 in no time.

re: #154 Charles

I think this is still current: Republican Party on Abortion:

That's just whacked. I will say that I disagree with the Republicans on this point pretty strongly. However, it basically has no chance of ever happening, so luckily it's a moot point. Constitutional amendments have to be approved by 66% (75%?) of the states, and at most they're going to get maybe 15% - 20% of the states to back it. Forget it.

Like I said, this is just a "show issue." So, though I disagree with this empty platform, it's not a deal-breaker for me, since it affects nothing in the real world. MOST of what Obama wants and will do VERY MUCH affects the real world -- negatively.

I'm outta' here.

re: #225 Maximu§

This thread will hit 1000 in no time.

it hits 750, I'm selling !

re: #206 Lizard by the Bay

Abortion is the law of the land, and has been (by judicial fiat or not) for 35 years. It has already served to reshape our demographics and its effects cannot be undone. But even more significant is the fact that pretty much anyone under 40 considers sex without procreation to be a "right". Abortion is, culturally speaking, considered to be the last line of defense in that line of thinking, the "final" contraceptive if you will. You can no more ban abortions in this country that you can ban condoms. Nobody will win national office by making turning back the clock on not just Roe v Wade, but 4 decades of post-sexual-revolution acceptance of recreational sex, as a cornerstone of their campaign. The Republican platform language dealing with abortion is an anachronism; a throwback to a fight already lost a very long time ago. It's time to let it go.

So at what age is it not o.k. to kill someone? And if the answer is birth, why stop there? If the child is deformed or handicapped? If the old become infirm? By what logic do we make those distinctions?

re: #162 Dianna

I cannot imagine how a raped woman can be asked to carry the rapist's child. Even if she gives it up for adoption, I cannot imagine it.

The personal grace of a woman who would do that is awe-inspring, but I would not dream of legislating it.

I agree. I was just saying those things as hypotheticals, from the point of view of people who think life begins at conception (which I don't).

re: #12 Irene NYC

Me too.

re: #216 MandyManners

Did I say that I did? Don't put wors into my mouth.

I didn't put words in your mouth......I asked a question.

re: #230 zombie

When do you think life begins? At birth?

re: #210 nyc redneck

remember reading several yrs. ago abt. a woman who was raped. she thought the hospital had handled the possibility of her having been impregnated but found out a couple of months later that she was indeed w/ child. she did not, at that point, opt for an abortion and delivered a healthy baby. a cute little girl who the woman was raising.
it is such an odd situation. i'm thinking the mother really had to overcome some difficult issues. i think you summed it up. she possessed some personal grace.
i don't think i could do it. carry a child after i was raped. that's almost too much to ask of most women.

What happens if the convicted "father" fights for visitation rights? Just curious, not being a smart-ass.

re: #175 galloping granny
Unless things have changed dramatically and no one told my parrish, that is what I believe too. My church has group support meetings
for those dealing with past abortions, Project Rachel. Maybe you mean something like that satt4?

re: #233 WriterMom

When do you think life begins? At birth?

I knew I should have logged off!

On the other hand, the islamists are having plenty of children, and will eventually outnumber everyone else. I'm not sure how crazy I am about them being in the majority.

re: #139 Killgore Trout

It matters not what they believe about personal choices, Killgore. If they don't believe as the Church teaches (and it has been steadfast on this issue), then they sin gravely. You can tote out all the stats you want to and it still doesn't change the Church position on the matter.

re: #212 ShalomMets

Frankly, the GOP platform can say just about anything on this issue and the Democrats can say nothing given Obama's vote on the Born Alive Act.

Would it not be the height of hypocrisy for Obama or the Democrats in general to charge McCain or the GOP with being extremists after, in essence if not in intent, supporting infanticide? Is someone going to seriously argue that infanticide is the less extreme option?

Thanks to Obama, this issue has been taken out of the Democratic arsenal and put into the Republican arsenal.

I am not at all concerned about what the Democrats might say about it. I am saying that there are very few people in the US that hold no position at all on the issue. The democrats are mucking up their platform on this issue already and forcing the many pro-life democrats out of the party tent. If the Republicans proceed to copy them, taking the opposite extreme stance, then what we are going to have is a whole bunch of middle of the road people who will never vote for either total and permanent elimination of abortion or mandated abortion either
1. staying home
2. throwing the election by voting for a third party candidate.

re: #237 zombie

I probably should also.

re: #65 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

So.... what did you all think of The Passion of The Christ?
/

Maybe the French could make a movie about Jesus going out fishing with Peter and the gang. Call it The Poisson of the Christ.

/I stole that from a Ship of Fools caption contest

re: #237 zombie

I knew I should have logged off!

Zombie, I just try to keep my cool, and not let things get personal. The islamists would like nothing better than for the counter-jihad movement to splinter.

Voltaire said "Le mieux est l'ennemi du bien", or "The best is the enemy of the good". It is my fear that some convention delegates, in an attempt to achieve "the best" (that is, "perfection", which is not attainable in this sphere) will give away the good; in this case a broad-based McCain victory. My personal opposition to abortion is based on my morals and religion, but I can clearly see that my hopes for my nation will be best achieved by letting McCain be McCain.

re: #242 Cygnus

Maybe the French could make a movie about Jesus going out fishing with Peter and the gang. Call it The Poisson of the Christ.

/I stole that from a Ship of Fools caption contest

I might go see that movie. For the halibut.

re: #192 sattv4u2

I wonder what percent of Republicans agree with the Republican platform? (no abortion under any circumstance)

Very few, I wager. The GOP has allowed itself to become hostage to the Religious Right. Even if only 15% feel that way, they are a very vehement 15%. I suspect we can't win without them, in the same way the Dems can't win without the black vote.

I was involved in evangelical Protestant churches for the better part of 20 years, and you couldn't find a better group of people, but everyone is afraid of not appearing "Christian enough." If the most Christian position is pro-life with no exceptions, that's where they feel obligated to be. It's kind of ironic to me that a movement that was formed to promote individual conscience and interpretation of the Scriptures has found its own autocratic leadership.

Gotta say, why on earth should we care about the Platform. Its not a blood oath. Its not something anyone is really expected to uphold. I have never seen a politician, republican or dem, who couldn't say, "well, that's what they said, but this is what i say."

Platforms are for policy wonks to worry about. the rest of us don't. So mccain is wise to let the baby have his bottle right there. you have to pick your fights.

re: #203 Killgore Trout

That cuts both ways; just because a church endorses something doesn't make it moral either. My point is that if the church were to enforce adherence to it's position on abortion 85% of Americans would be excommunicated. That's a pretty substantial reduction, the Church would almost cease to exist.

So, if everyone jumped off a cliff, would you do it too? Just because people went all secular on this issue does not make the moral issue go away.

I'm bailing out of this one....cya all.

re: #233 WriterMom

When do you think life begins? At birth?

As I said in an earlier abortion thread: My opinion (repeat: opinion) is that life begins at "viability" -- the age at which a child could conceivably survive. I would say life begins at "self-consciousness" or "ensoulment," but at this stage in history we have no way to detect, measure or prove when that happens to a fetus. So: viability it is for me. (Six-ish months.)

Last time I said that, I got cranky comments from both sides. So be it.

My wife & I are both in our 40s, and when she got pregnant, the doctor advised that "due to our age and statistical probabilities...", we should get several diagnositic tests done (such as amniocentesis) to check for genetic diseases.

If the tests had revealed something like Downs Syndrome, I guess we could have aborted the pregnancy... But that is so selfish.

So, we refused the tests. Thankfully, our son was born healthy, but we would have accepted whatever God gave us.

re: #211 Killgore Trout

Where did you get the impression that the Catholic Church would ever be a customer driven organization? Schisms and wars have been fought over disagreements with the catechism far less important then the sanctity of life.

Is that why you left?

re: #209 buzzsawmonkey

..... this entire issue is a red herring intended to sow needless discord.

BINGO.

re: #251 DaddyO

A MILLION UPDINGS TO YOU, MY FRIEND.

re: #236 snowcrash

Unless things have changed dramatically and no one told my parrish, that is what I believe too. My church has group support meetings
for those dealing with past abortions, Project Rachel. Maybe you mean something like that satt4?

When I was younger, the support group meetings conducted by your parish would have likely been excommunication.

re: #236 snowcrash

Unless things have changed dramatically and no one told my parrish, that is what I believe too. My church has group support meetings
for those dealing with past abortions, Project Rachel. Maybe you mean something like that satt4?

Project Rachel is a great program, as is Rachel's Vineyard, where volunteers take in poor pregnant women and help them financially and emotionally through their pregnancy and adoption. Love the mother and the child.

re: #220 Ben Hur

If you can read this

Thank a teacher...

If you are reading it in English....

THANK A SOLDIER!

Yes, That is what it says- And Your point is?