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On the Front Lines of the Evolution Wars in Florida

Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 5:55:09 pm PDT

New York Times writer Amy Harmon follows high school science teacher David Campbell’s efforts to reach students who’ve been raised as strict creationists, fighting a Florida political establishment that’s hostile to the science of evolution: A Teacher on the Front Line as Faith and Science Clash.

Bryce came to Ridgeview as a freshman from a Christian private school where he attended junior high.

At 16, Bryce, whose parents had made sure he read the Bible for an hour each Sunday as a child, no longer went to church. But he did make it to the predawn meetings of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, a national Christian sports organization whose mission statement defines the Bible as the “authoritative Word of God.” Life had been dark after his father died a year ago, he told the group, but things had been going better recently, and he attributed that to God’s help.

When the subject of evolution came up at a recent fellowship meeting, several of the students rolled their eyes.

“I think a big reason evolutionists believe what they believe is they don’t want to have to be ruled by God,” said Josh Rou, 17.

“Evolution is telling you that you’re like an animal,” Bryce agreed. “That’s why people stand strong with Christianity, because it teaches people to lead a good life and not do wrong.”

Doug Daugherty, 17, allowed that he liked science.

“I’ll watch the Discovery Channel and say ‘Ooh, that’s interesting,’ ” he said. “But there’s a difference between thinking something is interesting and believing it.”

The last question on the test Mr. Campbell passed out a week later asked students to explain two forms of evidence supporting evolutionary change and natural selection.

“I refuse to answer,” Bryce wrote. “I don’t believe in this.”

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1020 comments

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1 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 5:57:35pm
2 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 5:57:47pm

That's so sad.

3 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 5:58:12pm

Brainwashing in action...

4 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 5:58:32pm
In a stormy public comment session, Mr. Campbell defended his fellow writers against complaints that they had not included alternative explanations for life’s diversity, like intelligent design.
His attempt at humor came with an edge:
“We also failed to include astrology, alchemy and the concept of the moon being made of green cheese,” he said. “Because those aren’t science, either.”

Yep.

5 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:00:01pm

re: #3 CynicalConservative

Brainwashing in action...

Technically, brainwashing is converting from one to another. These kids have simply never known anything different.

6 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:00:38pm
Evolution is telling you that you’re like an animal

Bryce, don't let anybody tell you that you aren't a plant

7 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:00:59pm

re: #5 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Technically, brainwashing is converting from one to another. These kids have simply never known anything different.

Good point. Indoctrination at work.

Fixed.

8 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:03:30pm
“Evolution is telling you that you’re like an animal,” Bryce agreed. “That’s why people stand strong with Christianity, because it teaches people to lead a good life and not do wrong.”

Your parents teach you what's right and wrong, by word, by deed, by example. Those without good parents have to learn on their own or find other role models.

Teaching something false is something I consider wrong.

9 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:04:54pm
“I refuse to answer,” Bryce wrote. “I don’t believe in this.”

Flunk.

/just like pressing the Easy Button

10 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:04:56pm

Prove evolution then.

11 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:05:09pm
“I think a big reason evolutionists believe what they believe is they don’t want to have to be ruled by God,” said Josh Rou, 17.

Well- here's a brain bender for you, Josh- some people believe in both.

12 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:07:22pm
13 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:09:14pm

I suppose it bears repeating that evangelical zealots like this are a very small minority of the rather large U.S.religious population.

/because I can see the wheels turning

14 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:09:32pm

re: #12 buzzsawmonkey

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

15 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:11:23pm

students need to learn science. religion should not preclude that.
islam does this and look at the primitive culture of islamic countries.
it is very troublesome to see the western world going in this direction.
it is purposeful backwardness. it will hurt us.

16 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:11:28pm

I once went to a swap meet south of Ocala, Florida and saw many levels of human evolution there. The "Heavy Metal" tee-shirts were in abundance...some with snuff spittle stains.
/say "you bet!"

17 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:11:31pm

re: #8 Thanos

Your parents teach you what's right and wrong, by word, by deed, by example. Those without good parents have to learn on their own or find other role models.

Teaching something false is something I consider wrong.

And failure to use the intelligence that God gave us, by denying what years and years of research has shown to be true, is also wrong. Just absolutely wrong, and I do not believe that is how God intends for us to be.

18 LoFlyer  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:11:35pm

Charles, I agree with you on the evolution debate. But LGF has bigger fish to fry than creationism. I hope to see lots of good stuff from LGF and operator Zombie next week!
/DIA or bust!

19 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:12:00pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

What's your point?

/it's been proven that the Earth is way more than 6000 years old, agree?

20 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:12:18pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Then explain nylonase.
Explain retro-viral DNA.
Explain transitional fossils.
Explain 150 worth of evidence that supports evolution.

21 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:12:51pm

re: #17 reine.de.tout

And failure to use the intelligence that God gave us, by denying what years and years of research has shown to be true, is also wrong. Just absolutely wrong, and I do not believe that is how God intends for us to be.

Thank you for saying it.

22 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:13:25pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

Then explain nylonase.
Explain retro-viral DNA.
Explain transitional fossils.
Explain 150 worth of evidence that supports evolution.

You know you are doing this

23 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:14:09pm

re: #22 reine.de.tout

You know you are doing this

I thought I'd give it the ol' college try.

24 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:14:37pm

Lots of Missing links in Denver

25 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:14:49pm
26 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:15:12pm

re: #24 Shug

Lots of Missing links in Denver

/without hotel reservations

27 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:15:45pm

re: #15 nyc redneck

I totally agree with you. Creationism should not be taught in school. However, evolution should be taught as an unproven theory. It is not all based on fact. Darwinism has been proven wrong in many instances. I believe that as a science it gives students a good basis of what may have happened, but not the only answer. Creationism is based on faith, and evolution is based on theory. The two are like comparing apples and oranges.

28 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:16:04pm
“I refuse to answer,”

...and that's why this revival of creationism is an ati0intellectual movement. The kid knows the answer but refuses to accept it in favor of religious dogma. Empirical knowledge, reason and logic are trumped by scriptural dogma. If you wonder how the Muslim world got to be the way it is you're looking at it.

29 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:16:47pm

re: #22 reine.de.tout

Explain how the eye evolved.

30 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:17:09pm
31 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:17:26pm

re: #27 flynmudd

Darwinism has been proven wrong in many instances.

Name one.

32 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:17:45pm

re: #16 IslandLibertarian

there are many levels of human evolution in every corner of the world, not just the south.

33 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:02pm

re: #9 Killian Bundy

Flunk.

/just like pressing the Easy Button

I have to agree with you there, as long as the teacher is not trying to persuade the student AGAINST the childs beleif system and the wishes of the parents

34 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:19pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Please, don't embarrass yourself with easily debunked talking points. Google the Scientific Method and refresh your knowledge of what you should have learned in 6th grade.

35 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:28pm

re: #29 flynmudd

Explain how the eye evolved.

Here.

36 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:55pm
37 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:59pm

We have a real idiot on the line here.

38 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:19:47pm

re: #36 buzzsawmonkey

I know, but if you're leaving and no one else is going to chip in, I thought I'd give it a go.

39 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:06pm

re: #32 bellamags

there are many levels of human evolution in every corner of the world, not just the south.

Agreed. I saw much the same in Northern California and Oregon, sans the Heavy Metal tee's.

40 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:08pm

re: #37 Killgore Trout

We have a real idiot on the line here.

you can't see me ! I'm hiding behind the tall and fat guys!

41 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:28pm

re: #27 flynmudd

You guys keep saying evolution has been disproven, when if so it would be easy to replicate. Do you really think millions of scientists, 30% - 40% of whom are Christians, are really in some dark worldwide conspiracy?

42 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:37pm

re: #33 sattv4u2

I have to agree with you there, as long as the teacher is not trying to persuade the student AGAINST the childs beleif system and the wishes of the parents

I agree too. The parents are ultimately the ones responsible for crippling the child's God-given intellect. Hopefully, the child outgrows it.

43 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:45pm
44 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:49pm

10 Questions, and Answers, About Evolution

The questions are from a disco dewd, the answers from the National Center for Science Education.

45 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:05pm

ok lets make this simple. just the simple fact that certain species go extinct and new species are found everyday proves natural selection. If nothing changes then nothing new would be discovered.

46 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:10pm

re: #27 flynmudd

I totally agree with you. Creationism should not be taught in school. However, evolution should be taught as an unproven theory. It is not all based on fact. Darwinism has been proven wrong in many instances. I believe that as a science it gives students a good basis of what may have happened, but not the only answer. Creationism is based on faith, and evolution is based on theory. The two are like comparing apples and oranges.

ok, creationism is based on faith and evolution is a theory.
creationism belongs in church or theology class or in the home.
the science of evolution belongs in the class room.

47 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:26pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

...and that's why this revival of creationism is an ati0intellectual movement. The kid knows the answer but refuses to accept it in favor of religious dogma. Empirical knowledge, reason and logic are trumped by scriptural dogma. If you wonder how the Muslim world got to be the way it is you're looking at it.

Yep, religion is the root of all evil in this country and will surely lead to its destruction.

/are these idiots a bigger threat to civilization than white supremacists?

48 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:48pm

re: #42 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I agree too. The parents are ultimately the ones responsible for crippling the child's God-given intellect. Hopefully, the child outgrows it.

May not agree with a "fixed" moniker, but at least an alternative stance.

49 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:54pm

re: #42 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I agree too. The parents are ultimately the ones responsible for crippling the child's God-given intellect. Hopefully, the child outgrows it.

This goes to a larger issue of personal responsibility and what an educators job is.

50 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:55pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

I believe that I heard on the Science Channel in regard to Darwin that the fossil history was inconclusive. There was just too much missing. However, I personally don't care if a person wants to believe they evolved from an earthworm. More power to you. Life is short and after all it's a free country. I just think that both sides should try to come to some kind of understanding. Maybe God created us all through evolution. Who knows. There is more to life and I knew that I could get your goat.

51 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:22:16pm

This teacher is actually great. He's trying very hard to get the methodology and understanding across without challenging or denying their beliefs. If more were like this one, we wouldn't be holding this discussion.

52 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:22:21pm

re: #29 flynmudd

Explain how the eye evolved.

I am not sufficiently science-educated to do that.

I am sufficiently educated to know that evolution and faith easily co-exist.

ID and creationism are faith, and the teaching of this belongs only in religion classes, in church, or at home.

Rejection of science, which is what this rejection of evolution is, as Killgore said in #28, "an anti-intellectual movement", where empirical knowledge, reason and logic are absolutely rejected. Doing that amounts to an absolute rejection of the intelligence that God gave us. Rejecting the gifts that God gave us is absolutely wrong.

53 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:22:35pm
54 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:22:59pm

re: #36 buzzsawmonkey

Remember that "Darwinism" is the term of choice for people who refuse to look at any of the additions to biological and paleontological data which have been added in the last 150 years.

Heh.

What are the odds that, 100 years from now, Einstein will have been proven wrong on some of his conclusions? Science builds upon what's gone before.

55 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:23:03pm

flynmudd = Bryce

56 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:23:28pm

re: #53 buzzsawmonkey

That is a ridiculous statement.

/it was meant to be

57 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:24:10pm

re: #50 flynmudd

Then I think what you heard confused you. At the time Darwin published his theory, the fossil record was very small. That's not the case today. And- I did not evolve from an earthworm. I'm a fish, just like you. Also- Life is short- too short to revel in ignorance.

58 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:24:18pm

re: #55 Shug

Who the heck is Bryce?

59 leereyno  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:24:20pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

Neither have any of the other ideas that human beings have come up with to explain the world.

60 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:24:58pm

re: #47 Killian Bundy

Strawman. I never said that. Dogmatic fundamentalism and literal interpretation of scripture along with the rejection of Enlightenment and Reason will lead to a culture very similar to the Saudis, no science, blasphemy laws, limited free speech, etc. There's no doubt in my mind about it.

61 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:11pm

re: #47 Killian Bundy

Yep, religion is the root of all evil in this country and will surely lead to its destruction.

I would love to see a survey of the number of all hardened criminals incarcerated today in the USA. Serious crimes. Murder, Child molestation, etc. and see the percentage of those that were religious at the time of their crime(s) vs those that were not!

62 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:25pm
63 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:38pm

re: #50 flynmudd

No, it's inconclusive at some fine junctures, but highly conclusive overall. Most people don't understand that each new fossil in and of itself is a fresh challenge to the existing body of theory, hypothesis and fact.

The point is that fresh fossils are found every single day. So far there haven't been any earth shattering finds like a bunny in the stomach of a T-Rex. Each fossil found has supported the theory. That's millions of pieces of evidence.
If you want to find G-D in the gaps, you are welcome to, but don't try to piss on the facts staring you in the face if you would but open your eyes.

64 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:55pm
65 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:57pm

re: #58 flynmudd

You- didn't read the article, did you.

You haven't clicked on amy of my links either, have you?

66 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:26:34pm

re: #64 buzzsawmonkey

Sorry. This is my evening to assume the dullard role.

Thank God I get a night off !

67 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:26:48pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Strawman. I never said that. Dogmatic fundamentalism and literal interpretation of scripture along with the rejection of Enlightenment and Reason will lead to a culture very similar to the Saudis, no science, blasphemy laws, limited free speech, etc. There's no doubt in my mind about it.

/so, you fear a Theocracy taking over this country, is that it?

68 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:26:54pm

re: #64 buzzsawmonkey

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

69 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:27:26pm

re: #48 CynicalConservative

May not agree with a "fixed" moniker, but at least an alternative stance.

It's your [excluded, so another strikeover's not called for] right, and my [excluded, so another strikeover's not called for] responsibility to respect it.

Heh ... (-: ... how's that?!

70 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:27:45pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

Not trying to incite here, but does being anti-religious = bigot?

71 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:04pm

re: #67 Killian Bundy

Yes, I'm concerned with religious fundamentalists interfering with science education and free speech.

72 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:04pm

re: #49 sattv4u2

This goes to a larger issue of personal responsibility and what an educators job is.

Yes, too.

73 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:18pm

re: #62 buzzsawmonkey

Who are you? Steven Hawking? You are so smart, you make me feel dumb and that doesn't happen to often.

74 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:27pm

re: #69 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It's your [excluded, so another strikeover's not called for] right, and my [excluded, so another strikeover's not called for] responsibility to respect it.

Heh ... (-: ... how's that?!

Appreciated. Intelligent debate always welcomed!

75 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:33pm

re: #66 sattv4u2

Thank God I get a night off !

And now I'm worried about being laid off entirely...

(LOL, btw)

76 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:58pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Strawman. I never said that. Dogmatic fundamentalism and literal interpretation of scripture along with the rejection of Enlightenment and Reason will lead to a culture very similar to the Saudis, no science, blasphemy laws, limited free speech, etc. There's no doubt in my mind about it.

Yes. Because I know in My Catholic Church, we HATE electricity, the internal combustion engine, medicine. We LOVE the gag-ball as a means of silencing!

77 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:14pm
78 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:14pm

re: #63 Thanos

Why don't we just agree to not agree on this subject. Like I said before, maybe it's a combination of both and we will both be proven right in the end. If you are right good for you. If I am right then I have kept an open mind to both possibilities.

79 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:17pm

re: #47 Killian Bundy

Yep, religion is the root of all evil in this country and will surely lead to its destruction.

/are these idiots a bigger threat to civilization than white supremacists?

With respect, I think that's an very large overstatement.

80 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:21pm

re: #73 bellamags

Who are you? Steven Hawking? You are so smart, you make me feel dumb and that doesn't happen to often.

I was thinking the same thing - everything he says is so - perfectly stated.

81 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:29pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

/avatar . . . [cough]

82 Padre  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:48pm

I am surprised by the limited support from many of you so-called Lizards. You who spit on others' faith while claiming to hold your own, and at the same time denouncing one for holding steadfast with his.

Good on this student for sticking to his beliefs. Bad on him for not answering the exam question.

83 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:52pm

re: #73 bellamags

Who are you? Steven Hawking?

I can assure you that buzzsawmonkey resembles Stephen Hawking solely in the area of athletic prowess.

/

84 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:30:53pm
85 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:30:57pm

re: #78 flynmudd

Why don't we just agree to not agree on this subject. Like I said before, maybe it's a combination of both and we will both be proven right in the end. If you are right good for you. If I am right then I have kept an open mind to both possibilities.

Uh- no. You don't seem at all open to the veracity of evolution, so you're not being open minded.

86 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:19pm

re: #78 flynmudd

Why don't we just agree to not agree on this subject. Like I said before, maybe it's a combination of both and we will both be proven right in the end. If you are right good for you. If I am right then I have kept an open mind to both possibilities.

Ok, I can live with that. The thing I can't live with is trying to force DI's agenda. It's a divisive wedge that is weakening conservatism in America.

87 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:40pm

re: #62 buzzsawmonkey

Einstein has already been proven wrong in certain areas

Didn't know that, but not surprising. The rest of your comment dovetails with my thoughts, and point, exactly.

88 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:45pm

re: #76 sattv4u2

Regardless, the Catholic League has tried to join forces with CAIR to limit free speech and institute penalties for blasphemy. It's a reprehensible effort.

89 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:48pm

re: #83 Occasional Reader

I can assure you that buzzsawmonkey resembles Stephen Hawking solely in the area of athletic prowess.

/

Gold Medal in the 100 meter stop

90 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:49pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

He can't do that. Only you can do that. Who does he think he is ?

91 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:32:01pm

re: #84 buzzsawmonkey

seriously, what is your profession? (if you can tell me without having to kill me. )

92 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:32:37pm

re: #79 pre-Boomer Marine brat

With respect, I think that's an very large overstatement.

/yes, it was over the top sarcasm

93 itellu3times  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:32:50pm

send zombie to take pictures of evolution not happening

94 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:33:12pm

re: #92 Killian Bundy

would that look like this?

/
top

95 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:33:24pm

re: #10 flynmudd

Prove evolution then.

Get an education, then.

96 leereyno  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:33:31pm

There was a survey I read about (possibly here) indicating that about 47% of the US public believed in creationism. Now I'm not one to take surveys at face value, but if you assume for a moment that this survey was not a push survey and that its methodology was sound, then its results say something very interesting when compared with another statistical phenomenon.

At any given time, 50% of the population is of below average intelligence. It doesn't matter what that average is, with 300+ million people, the results will always follow a normal distribution.

I think if you were to measure the IQ's of the people who were in that 47% who believe in creationism, you would find that virtually all of them fall to the left of the 50% mark when it comes to IQ.

In other words, belief in creationism (as normally defined) is a pass/fail IQ test.

97 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:33:40pm

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

Thanks. I walk a fine line sometimes, it's nice to see that somebody gets it.

98 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:34:25pm
99 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:34:36pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

Wrong.

100 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:35:16pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

Hey, pal, your icons ridicule the Pope. It is not an unreasonable observation.

101 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:02pm

re: #84 buzzsawmonkey

That, and my flat mechanical voice.

Does this monkey have one of those windup-thingy-keys on his back?

/you had to have grown up in the 50's

102 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:14pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Regardless, the Catholic League has tried to join forces with CAIR to limit free speech and institute penalties for blasphemy. It's a reprehensible effort.

Just out of curiosity, what was your cracker stealing friends goal? "hey ,,, look at me ,,,, aren't I cool that I can spit on your beleifs"?
Let me ask you in a non-religious way. Over there is a bee hive. The bees are just going about their everyday bee business. For no reason at all, you go over and whack the beehive, THEN you complain when you get stung!

103 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:20pm

re: #85 Sharmuta

That's not what I said was it? I said maybe it is a combination of both. I am not excluding anything. I'm not on a crusade to prove someone right or wrong and could personally care less. There are more important battles in my life that consume my time and energy, and believe me trying to battle over something this insignificant does not rate. I'm more concerned about my son having a safe deployment and coming home alive. So whether or not I evolved or was created is just not a passion of mine as it is apparently to you.

104 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:37pm

re: #98 buzzsawmonkey

are you the son of Frankenstein? :)

105 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:49pm

re: #29 flynmudd

Explain how the eye evolved.

Get an education, and ye shall know.

106 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:37:24pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

I walk a fine line sometimes

I keep a close watch on this post of mine...

107 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:37:31pm
108 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:38:05pm

re: #104 bellamags

are you the son of Frankenstein? :)

It's FRAHNK-en-steen!

109 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:38:11pm

re: #92 Killian Bundy

/yes, it was over the top sarcasm

Ah ha. That's why it surprised me.

110 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:38:28pm

re: #107 buzzsawmonkey

No, but my father did have a large hand in creating our current thermonuclear arsenal.

It's not the Son of Frankenstein, it's the Son of Oppenheimer!

111 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:39:03pm

re: #50 flynmudd

There is more to life and I knew that I could get your goat.


Is that why you're here?

112 Fast Eddie  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:39:18pm

When I was a graduate student in geology about 30 years ago, I would occasionally get some test answers like this from freshman students who took geology because they thought it would be easier than either physics or biology (one science course was required).

I would just write in a brief rebuttal to their statements - which tended to be things like "evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics" - give them full credit for their answer, and go on about my business. Maybe I should have acted differently, but I figured that one graduate teaching assistant couldn't cure all the ignorance in the world.

113 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:03pm

re: #105 Naso Tang

I'm in college now. But I promise when I get to that class I will write you and tell you all about the theory that was taught okay? I don't believe that creationism or ID should be taught in school. I do believe that students should just be told that evolution is an ongoing theory and that new information is being discovered everyday and that previous theories have been proven wrong. What is so bad about that? Tell all of it; the good and the bad and the right and the wrong.

114 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:03pm

re: #107 buzzsawmonkey

It's cool to have a smart father. Mine is pretty sharp, he has a few mechanical patents and travels all over the world doing "consulting" work.

You buzzsaw have your father's DNA.

115 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:15pm

That's just sad. That there are people who wouldn't be disheartened to hear this talk from American teenagers in the 21st century is frustrating. And the people who bring up children this way, to reject science as a threat to their souls, deserve as much scorn as can be heaped upon them.

116 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:27pm
117 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:45pm

re: #111 solomonpanting

Yes. I like mine BBQed.

118 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:46pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Regardless, the Catholic League has tried to join forces with CAIR to limit free speech and institute penalties for blasphemy. It's a reprehensible effort.

I will let Ibrahim Hooper at the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) know of your latest bluster

THAT is your proof that they are "JOINING FORCES" !?!?!

FEH !

119 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:48pm

All right. Jimmy Page is on.

120 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:41:18pm

Wow, there's something new about the look here, huh?

121 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:41:36pm

re: #120 Salem

Wow, there's something new about the look here, huh?

I re-did the curtains

122 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:41:55pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

Not to worry. He does that to anyone who is flippantly critical of anything religious. You need to be more respectful, like Buzz is.

123 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:42:15pm

A teacher tasked with evolution goes for Mickey Mouse to prove his point.

Oh, the irony....

"Mickey Mouse Evolution 101"

124 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:42:38pm

re: #123 natemannq

A teacher tasked with evolution goes for Mickey Mouse to prove his point.

Oh, the irony....

"Mickey Mouse Evolution 101"

does Mickey have opposable thumbs?

125 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:42:50pm

Charles,

Wait, wait, wait. There's a "war" now, apparently, and it's expanding. Moments ago, it seems, LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

I'll abstain from this one.

I don't agree with the people pushing religious belief onto students, and I don't agree with people trying to exorcise religious belief from students.

The punishment for refusing to answer a question on the grounds of religious belief is marks off a test score. The big red "F."

Certainly not "war" and a "fight."

126 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:42:51pm

re: #103 flynmudd

Yes- it has become a passion of mine. I'm thankful I live in the greatest country in the world, and I think that what your son is fighting for is worth defending in our schoolrooms as well because they are not unrelated. Clinging to religious dogma over reason and logic is not good for any society. Your son is fighting the manifestations of this overseas, and God bless him. Many of us here at LGF are now opposed to it's American counterpart. And yes- I feel passionately about keeping America the best.

127 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:43:21pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

Thanks. I walk a fine line sometimes, it's nice to see that somebody gets it.

For what it's worth, friend, from my limited experience here I agree with buzzsaw.

I'd like to also add that good character shows through, no matter whatever kind of front you try to put up.

/off base
/out of turn
/meant well

128 tradewind  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:43:30pm

re: #119 Outrider

Mad Men's JP?
I'm missing it?

129 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:43:36pm

re: #116 buzzsawmonkey

The accelerator method, or the reactor method? (it's ok not to answer as that would pretty much out you on last name...)

130 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:43:42pm

re: #125 Cognito

I'm giving you a ding up for that one

131 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:44:34pm

re: #130 sattv4u2

I'm giving you a ding up for that one


Don't criticize the media and Cog is lucid. Kind of weird how that works.

132 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:13pm

re: #128 tradewind

Mad Men's JP?
I'm missing it?

Sorry. Olympics closing ceremony. JP of Led Zeppelin fame.

133 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:19pm

re: #107 buzzsawmonkey

No, but my father did have a large hand in creating our current thermonuclear arsenal.


Thank him for me!

134 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:25pm

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

/that's when I'll fear a "Theocracy" in this country

135 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:30pm

Is anyone else watching fox? Where are they? looks like a steakhouse.

136 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:46pm

re: #131 Hard Right

Don't criticize the media and Cog is lucid. Kind of weird how that works.

No one ever seems to pause and wonder whether, considering that media is the only thing I really know -- and how 'lucid' I am otherwise -- whether I just might be right about the media as well.

137 tradewind  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:07pm

re: #125 Cognito

At the risk of inciting rage, why is this even a major topic in Lizardland?
There's so much else happening in the world, and this is one that no one can win.......
Okay. Just saying. Won't say more.

138 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:19pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

Keep up the good fight. I'm glad people are passionate about ideas and are willing to learn more and not be stuck in the 7th century. Keep an open mind and try not to beat Christians over the head with the evolutionary stick. Not all of us are militant.

139 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:28pm

re: #125 Cognito

Where on earth did you get that from what Charles posted? He referenced an article, and stated what was going on.

It's really something that lends credence to something I've been saying all along: creationism is being taught in public schools, as you can see if you read the whole article.

140 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:30pm

re: #134 Killian Bundy

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

/that's when I'll fear a "Theocracy" in this country

Actually ,,, I fervently hope the REGULAR police would be on that NOW

141 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:45pm

re: #135 bellamags

Is anyone else watching fox? Where are they? looks like a steakhouse.

I don't remember the location exactly, but it's a basement bar under the location theyre headquartered.

142 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:49pm

re: #135 bellamags

The fox News HQ at the convention is in a "converted" bar

143 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:47:06pm

re: #115 Salem

That's just sad. That there are people who wouldn't be disheartened to hear this talk from American teenagers in the 21st century is frustrating. And the people who bring up children this way, to reject science as a threat to their souls, deserve as much scorn as can be heaped upon them.

It's real simple.

/flunk them

144 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:47:24pm

re: #137 tradewind

At the risk of inciting rage, why is this even a major topic in Lizardland?
There's so much else happening in the world, and this is one that no one can win.......
Okay. Just saying. Won't say more.

I'm not sure that's really a question for me.

145 Charles  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:47:38pm

re: #131 Hard Right

Don't criticize the media and Cog is lucid. Kind of weird how that works.

Or you could look at it another way, and ask why you're on the opposite side on so many other things.

146 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:47:41pm

re: #135 bellamags

Is anyone else watching fox? Where are they? looks like a steakhouse.

/the rented a bar for the week

147 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:09pm

re: #139 Thanos

Where on earth did you get that from what Charles posted? He referenced an article, and stated what was going on.

It's really something that lends credence to something I've been saying all along: creationism is being taught in public schools, as you can see if you read the whole article.

ummmm,, the HEADLINE ,,,,


On the Front Lines of the Evolution Wars in Florida

148 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:17pm

re: #118 sattv4u2

THAT is your proof that they are "JOINING FORCES" !?!?!


None. That press release clearly shows that they tried to get CAIR involved. CAIR declined to participate.

149 tradewind  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:28pm

re: #144 Cognito

I realized that after I posted it.......sorry.
I think you're where I stopped reading and started to post. Disregard.

150 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:31pm
151 kahall  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:34pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

LOL! no, wait your serious. Gulp!

152 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:55pm

re: #139 Thanos

Where on earth did you get that from what Charles posted? He referenced an article, and stated what was going on.

It's really something that lends credence to something I've been saying all along: creationism is being taught in public schools, as you can see if you read the whole article.

Where do I get what, exactly? Be specific, if you don't mind.

153 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:59pm

re: #124 sattv4u2

does Mickey have opposable thumbs?

Not sure but evolution is proven when Mickey Mouse loses the tail.

154 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:49:53pm

re: #153 natemannq

Not sure but evolution is proven when Mickey Mouse loses the tail.

Minnie left Mickey !?!?!?!

155 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:49:54pm

re: #136 Cognito

No one ever seems to pause and wonder whether, considering that media is the only thing I really know -- and how 'lucid' I am otherwise -- whether I just might be right about the media as well.

Considering you've been repeatedly proven wrong by many here on that issue, you certainly are not right. You exhibit extreme denial when it comes to the media. A little too close to home I guess.

156 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:49:58pm

re: #150 buzzsawmonkey

Reactor method.

157 SeafoodGumbo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:49:58pm

OT: On right now....Discovery Channel

The Flight That Fought Back

about Flight 93

158 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:50:19pm

re: #138 flynmudd

I happen to be a Christian. In fact, the Catholic Church supports evolution. Just today I spoke with a recent convert to Catholicism from Luthranism, and because he's an engineer, the Church's support of scientific learning was a major concern of his until he learned more about the Church.

159 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:50:23pm

If he can't or won't do the work, grade him accordingly.

Students have been refusing and unable to do their course work for a variety of other reasons, i.e. laziness, drugs, rebellion,etc. He should be treated the same. If they flunk the unwilling or unable, he should be flunked also. If they pass the unwilling or unable, he should also be passed.

160 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:50:26pm

re: #113 flynmudd

I'm in college now. But I promise when I get to that class I will write you and tell you all about the theory that was taught okay? I don't believe that creationism or ID should be taught in school. I do believe that students should just be told that evolution is an ongoing theory and that new information is being discovered everyday and that previous theories have been proven wrong. What is so bad about that? Tell all of it; the good and the bad and the right and the wrong.

Your intent seems to be good, but the truth is that your explanation simply indicates that you don't know, or understand, what is actually known. With respect, you sound as if you are repeating what you have been told, yet perhaps acknowledging that all of that may not be true.

You don't actually need to wait 'till you get to that class to learn about evolution and all of the scientific disciplines that support it.

However, once you do understand it enough to believe that it is real, then you are still free to believe, as do many many religious people, that God actually designed it that way.

161 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:08pm

I am amazed at the number of people who spend so much time on a thread that they do not deem worthy of the blog.
Perhaps that's why they haven't gotten around to starting their own

162 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:13pm

i was thinking abt. courage today.
i had a conversation w/ a danish guy. fashion person, most likely gay.
i was so effusive w/ praise for the publication of the cartoons by his country.
he frowned and back peddled and prefaced everything w/ but, but, but, i don't think you should offend people.
i looked at this little guy and he was the classic example of trying to be the last tid bit for the crocodile. i call that cowardice.
i remember alexander solzhenitsyn said something like: from ancient times, decline in courage in a civilization has been the beginning of the end.
how do we get our courage back?
all those ignorant fools at the dem convention recreating '68. they have no idea what is going on in the world.
they don't even KNOW abt. the alligator.

163 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:16pm

re: #145 Charles

Or you could look at it another way, and ask why you're on the opposite side on so many other things.

We definitely don't agree on the media. Other issues? TBD.

164 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:28pm

re: #125 Cognito

Charles,

Wait, wait, wait. There's a "war" now, apparently, and it's expanding. Moments ago, it seems, LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

Define "the battlefield".

165 Da Coyote  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:46pm

I'm not defending the religious zealots, but why not do the obvious and just flunk this kid? He'll never get a job in anything requiring biology - which is a good thing. I'd rather concentrate on the idiots that are graduating HS that cannot even read English, don't know history, and actually think that socialism is a good thing. Creationism wont hurt me. Dhimmicrats will.

166 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:47pm

re: #155 Hard Right

Considering you've been repeatedly proven wrong by many here on that issue, you certainly are not right. You exhibit extreme denial when it comes to the media. A little too close to home I guess.

All right. I don't remember being repeatedly proven wrong about diddly, but that's fine.

Maybe it's just my conveniently umbrella-like "extreme denial."

/love to hear specifics

167 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:47pm
168 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:59pm

re: #136 Cognito

No one ever seems to pause and wonder whether, considering that media is the only thing I really know -- and how 'lucid' I am otherwise -- whether I just might be right about the media as well.

ummm,, I know I gave you an upding (deservidly so) earlier. But I also am "in the media" and your posts about it are IMHO dead wrong

(and no, I can't recite any of them right now. I knows em when I sees em)

169 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:06pm

re: #127 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The Pope doesn't believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis. Is he an anti-religious bigot too?

170 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:12pm

re: #152 Cognito

Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

I'll abstain from this one.

I don't agree with the people pushing religious belief onto students, and I don't agree with people trying to exorcise religious belief from students.


You are addressing Charles in your post, and acting as if he wrote the headline. He didn't, he merely posted the interesting article.

171 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:24pm

re: #154 sattv4u2

Minnie left Mickey !?!?!?!

These threads start going downhill so FAST!

172 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:33pm

re: #164 Salem

Define "the battlefield".

That's my point, Salem. It seems to be amorphous, and expanding.

173 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:41pm

re: #125 Cognito

Charles,

Wait, wait, wait. There's a "war" now, apparently, and it's expanding. Moments ago, it seems, LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

If it's here it's not private, is it?

174 dmandman  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:54pm

There is a quick way to pull the plug on this. Simply pull the accreditation from the school for acceptance of the courses as satisfying the required pre-requisites for entrance for under-grad science programs. A few parents seeing the Valedictorians not admitted until they passed some remedial classes or the SAT scores not being high enough to get entrance but to a few schools would be a big convincer. There are quite a few schools that will take the top percentages of a high school but I understand that it only applies to accredited schools. What is the position of the Florida State Universities to this right now (ie accreditation)?

175 Fritz_Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:56pm

re: #3 CynicalConservative

Brainwashing in action...

If it's from the NY Times, then by definition it's "brainwashing". So why is the NY Times spending all these column inches defending evolution and denouncing the Disco Institute as the un-evolved troglodytes that they are? Here's even more, published just yesterday.

I understand why the NY Times is in the tank for Obama, supports the Palestinians and other Islamic terrorists, hates America, supported the Soviets for 60 years, and does everything thing in it's power to destroy everything that's good and right in our society.

But why this major effort supporting evolution and attacking creationism? What's the agenda? And why now?

176 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:53:01pm

re: #137 tradewind

At the risk of inciting rage, why is this even a major topic in Lizardland?
There's so much else happening in the world, and this is one that no one can win.......
Okay. Just saying. Won't say more.


1. It's Charles' blog.
2. Lizards like to argue.

177 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:53:15pm

re: #171 pre-Boomer Marine brat

These threads start going downhill so FAST!

I do what I can !

178 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:53:46pm

re: #176 Jim in Virginia

heh.

179 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:54:07pm

re: #176 Jim in Virginia

1. It's Charles' blog.
2. Lizards like to argue.

don't forget #'s 3-10

It;s Charles blog!

180 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:54:28pm

re: #170 Thanos

You are addressing Charles in your post, and acting as if he wrote the headline. He didn't, he merely posted the interesting article.

Who did write the headline, if you don't mind? I believe it's, "On the Front Lines of Evolution Wars in Florida."

181 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:55:07pm

re: #167 buzzsawmonkey

No not really, DOE is in process of resurrecting the capability now and they are looking at both methods. Interestingly enough, the first original fission reactor method seems to be the harder path due to NRC permits.

182 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:55:27pm

re: #160 Naso Tang

Like I said before, maybe God used evolution to create everything. He certainly made us curious to find out and I do believe that was His purpose. Otherwise we would get bored. I have no problem learning about the scientific study of evolution in school and I believe that all students should learn it and be graded accordingly. Creationism and ID should not be taught in school. Leave that to the church and the parents. I don't believe we would have scientists if we didn't have a curiosity to find out where we came from and how we got here. Enough said on this subject. I have a full work day and then classes tomorrow night. Have a good one.

183 Cartman  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:55:29pm

re: #134 Killian Bundy

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

/that's when I'll fear a "Theocracy" in this country

That's socially acceptable behavior?

184 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:56:34pm

re: #172 Cognito

That's my point, Salem. It seems to be amorphous, and expanding.

It must be in your own mind, unless a post on a blog now constitutes a battlefield. Or you're just being a colossal drama queen.

185 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:56:55pm

re: #166 Cognito

All right. I don't remember being repeatedly proven wrong about diddly, but that's fine.

Maybe it's just my conveniently umbrella-like "extreme denial."

/love to hear specifics

Your response is typical of someone in denial. Many showed you in detail how wrong you were, but you were incapable of seeing it. Now I need to go back and bring up info you cannot accept anyway? You aren't worth the time. Now go pat yourself on the back about how you won because I didn't get "specific".
You are just like the DI folks when it comes to the media.

186 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:12pm

re: #137 tradewind

At the risk of inciting rage, why is this even a major topic in Lizardland?
There's so much else happening in the world, and this is one that no one can win.......
Okay. Just saying. Won't say more.

The dendrites of some folks on this site seem to be hell bent on pursuing the Evolution argument.

Many of them are atheists.. Perhaps they're crying out for a little faith and likely read very little Scripture.

That said, I believe that the age of this earth (15 billion years) is exactly congruent with Scripture in that man translated a timeline it could not comprehend at the time into something the authors could understand.

187 macintush  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:29pm

Ho, hum. Back to the Communist Broadcast - Oh, I mean the Olympics, not CNN.

188 kahall  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:30pm

I've noticed recently that the left is using this evolution, creationism thing in their talking points against the right lately and it concerns me. Has it been on the list for a while and I am just now noticing it?

189 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:40pm

re: #182 flynmudd

Creationism and ID should not be taught in school.


Why shouldn't science be taught in public schools? Religion should be taught at home but elementary knowledge of science is essential to being a contributing member of society.

190 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:54pm

re: #184 Salem

It must be in your own mind, unless a post on a blog now constitutes a battlefield. Or you're just being a colossal drama queen.

I didn't invent the language, Salem. I took it from the post directly. Wars are fought on battlefields. I'm wondering where the boundaries of this one lie.

191 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:58:17pm

re: #174 dmandman

There is a quick way to pull the plug on this. Simply pull the accreditation from the school for acceptance of the courses as satisfying the required pre-requisites for entrance for under-grad science programs. A few parents seeing the Valedictorians not admitted until they passed some remedial classes or the SAT scores not being high enough to get entrance but to a few schools would be a big convincer. There are quite a few schools that will take the top percentages of a high school but I understand that it only applies to accredited schools. What is the position of the Florida State Universities to this right now (ie accreditation)?

That's not the point of this article. The school is teaching evolution, just like the law requires.

/it's about religious zealot refusnik children, who should simply be flunked

192 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:58:23pm

re: #167 buzzsawmonkey

Good to know. I gather the other method has supplanted his, but it does not dim his luster in my eyes.

Even though your dad came up with that lame-o reactor method? Everyone else's dads were making tritium in much cooler ways that yours was.

193 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:58:41pm

re: #185 Hard Right

Now go pat yourself on the back about how you won because I didn't get "specific".

Brilliant.

194 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:58:59pm

re: #183 Cartman

That's socially acceptable behavior?

/zombie took lots of pictures of it

195 de La Valette  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:16pm

I wish we could just indicate our POV on this topic, and a few others, in our profiles - it gets so confusing.

Like I know Kilgore Trout and I don't eye-to-eye on abortion but we probably are close on evolution, without having to have a thread to argue about it. I have noticed these threads have fewer and fewer proponents of Creation Science, and are a bit of an echo chamber.

196 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:21pm

re: #193 Cognito

Brilliant.

Thanks for proving my point.

197 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:43pm

re: #175 Fritz_Katz

But why this major effort supporting evolution and attacking creationism? What's the agenda? And why now?

What makes you think this blog is a single issue forum? If it is not interesting to you all you have to do is wait a while.

198 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:43pm

re: #188 kahall

I've noticed recently that the left is using this evolution, creationism thing in their talking points against the right lately and it concerns me. Has it been on the list for a while and I am just now noticing it?

It's been on their list for a while now. It's an embarrassing element of "right wing" America and they will continue to exploit it.

199 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:53pm

re: #186 natemannq

The dendrites of some folks on this site seem to be hell bent on pursuing the Evolution argument.

Many of them are atheists.. Perhaps they're crying out for a little faith and likely read very little Scripture.

That said, I believe that the age of this earth (15 billion years) is exactly congruent with Scripture in that man translated a timeline it could not comprehend at the time into something the authors could understand.

You assume too much.

200 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:58pm

OK Everyone -

Admire the child's courage, no matter how wrong he might be - AND - Re-Phrase the question - something like, starting with an "IF" - the most powerful two letter word in the English Language.
-S-

201 JimmyTheClaw  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:00:06pm

pictures from denver

[Link: dncphotoblog.wordpress.com...]

202 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:00:09pm

re: #169 Killgore Trout

The Pope doesn't believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis. Is he an anti-religious bigot too?

Heh, of course not ... and not just because he's the Pope.

I don't believe in a literal Genesis either, but I believe that God is "the creator" and that evolution is one of his many (scientific, as we call it/them) tools.

/then again *grin*, Benedict DID head the Holy Office, which was once called the Inquisition. .. hmmmm?

203 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:00:45pm

Sharmuta has this tendency to hit -1 whenever he can't refute an argument.

It's really quite quaint.

204 Cartman  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:00:45pm

re: #194 Killian Bundy

/zombie took lots of pictures of it

Never mind. Sorry I asked.

205 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:01:10pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

You assume too much.

I assume too much?

And you know all?

206 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:01:37pm

re: #202 pre-Boomer Marine brat

/then again *grin*, Benedict DID head the Holy Office, which was once called the Inquisition. .. hmmmm?


As long as he wasn't burning Jews at the stake I couldn't care less what his office was called.

207 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:01:49pm

re: #180 Cognito

Who did write the headline, if you don't mind? I believe it's, "On the Front Lines of Evolution Wars in Florida."

Ok, granted, sorry thought that was from the article, I dove right in without reading the NYT headline, war, clash, not much difference. Only in scope. Since the scope of this goes worldwide, I won't argue with Charles calling it a war.
The "where did you get that from" comes from this part:

LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately

Is the article not about evolution being taught in schools, while other teachers in the same schools are teaching ID?

208 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:02:02pm

re: #191 Killian Bundy

That's not the point of this article. The school is teaching evolution, just like the law requires.

/it's about religious zealot refusnik children, who should simply be flunked

Just flunking them because they refuse to learn? I think the teacher is going about it the right way in teaching them. If you flunk somebody out of hand you are doing them a huge disservice now and potentially later in life. But if you make an attempt and get through to most of them that's worth it in the long run.

209 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:02:09pm

re: #134 Killian Bundy

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

/that's when I'll fear a "Theocracy" in this country

Yuck. I'll stick to Marti Gras. The only things flying around there is beer and beads.

210 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:02:14pm
211 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:02:42pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

You assume too much.

for the record,

I seem to remember getting admissions of atheism when I posed the question.

212 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:08pm

re: #203 natemannq

You should check your sexist assumptions at the door.

re: #205 natemannq

That's a strawman. I didn't say I knew all. But I do know many people here supporting evolution are Christians or Jews who've read plenty of scripture.

213 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:23pm

re: #201 JimmyTheClaw

"U$A Off the Planet"
/Nice find

214 eclectic infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:25pm
“I refuse to answer,” Bryce wrote. “I don’t believe in this.”

This clearly demonstrates why theology MUST be kept out the science class at the very least.

215 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:28pm

re: #190 Cognito

I didn't invent the language, Salem. I took it from the post directly. Wars are fought on battlefields. I'm wondering where the boundaries of this one lie.

By jove, you're right. How embarrassing for me.

Well, there you have it. I guess there's a war on. I'm on the side of science, obviously.

216 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:29pm

re: #210 buzzsawmonkey

and managed to make themselves sufficiently obnoxious

Ah, so it runs in the family, does it.

/

217 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:31pm

re: #211 natemannq

From who?

218 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:56pm

Sharmuta,

Are you ever NOT logged on?

219 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:58pm
220 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:04:26pm

re: #208 BlueCanuck

Just flunking them because they refuse to learn? I think the teacher is going about it the right way in teaching them. If you flunk somebody out of hand you are doing them a huge disservice now and potentially later in life. But if you make an attempt and get through to most of them that's worth it in the long run.

/you can lead a horse to water but, at some point, the reality show must go on

221 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:04:42pm

re: #218 natemannq

What does that have to do with anything?

222 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:04:54pm

re: #203 natemannq

Funny, talk about major assumptions. I do believe that Sharmuta has refuted a few arguments and answered questions ask. If not in the forum at least links are provided.

/I assume that you are a newbie, or someone that doesn't post or read regularly. the cluebat will inform you of your mistake.

223 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:02pm

re: #191 Killian Bundy

That's not the point of this article. The school is teaching evolution, just like the law requires.

/it's about religious zealot refusnik children, who should simply be flunked

"K-B" -

Before we do that, ask the children the same question with an "IF/THEN" basis. Beliefs are personal - questions CAN be tailored.

-S-

224 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:13pm

re: #186 natemannq

The dendrites of some folks on this site seem to be hell bent on pursuing the Evolution argument.

Many of them are atheists.. Perhaps they're crying out for a little faith and likely read very little Scripture.

You know what they say about assuming too much? Most atheists have plenty of faith, it just doesn't happen to be the scripture(s), which you appropriately don't name.

225 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:13pm

re: #214 eclectic infidel

Careful, people will start accusing you of anti-religious bigotry.
/Although I agree.

226 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:39pm

re: #182 flynmudd

i don't count god out of the equation. and i'm a christian atheist.
i do know that the clever purpose of 'creationism', in the class room, is only to bitch slap evolution and nip at the findings and facts of this scientific theory.
creationism brings nothing substantial to the inquiry. as it is faith based.
fake fossils and museums w/ children petting dinosaurs are not based on scientific evidence. this can not be taught in to students.

227 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:44pm

re: #220 Killian Bundy

/you can lead a horse to water but, at some point, the reality show must go on

His job is to try and educate, not babysit or coddle. If they refuse to learn that's their decision.

228 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:06:07pm

re: #207 Thanos

Is the article not about evolution being taught in schools, while other teachers in the same schools are teaching ID?

No. The story, to me, seems to be about a war of ideologies.

Let's take for example the young man in question, the young man in Charles's excerpt. Let's say his parents taught him -- privately, at home -- that the universe is a giant ham sandwich.

So he arrives to school, and when his teacher asks him about the dimensions and nature of the universe, he replies, "I'd rather not say, based on my religious beliefs."

The answer is "Your convictions have earned you and F."

The answer is not, as the otherwise misguided bumper sticker says, war.

229 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:06:49pm

These are the people who will soon be stalking and nic jacking you on other blogs.

230 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:07:26pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

As long as he wasn't burning Jews at the stake I couldn't care less what his office was called.

*chuckle*
/teasing you, and I respect Benedict a lot

IIRC from the time of his election, he did run the Holy Office, which handles cases of challenges to the faith, heresy, and other stuff. Ages ago it was called (at least informally, or only in Spain) the Inquisition. That's merely a bit of trivia I picked up.

231 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:08:16pm

re: #214 eclectic infidel

This clearly demonstrates why theology MUST be kept out the science class at the very least.

Bryce is self-selecting himself out of any real career in science. He can serve tables, sell Real Estate, sell lawnmowers or even loans. He is removing himself from a field for which he is ill suited.

232 JimmyTheClaw  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:08:20pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

"U$A Off the Planet"
/Nice find

found the link on michelle malkins site cant wait to see zombies newest essay

233 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:08:47pm

re: #208 BlueCanuck

Just flunking them because they refuse to learn? I think the teacher is going about it the right way in teaching them. If you flunk somebody out of hand you are doing them a huge disservice now and potentially later in life. But if you make an attempt and get through to most of them that's worth it in the long run.


Hard to do with this attitude:

“I refuse to answer,” Bryce wrote. “I don’t believe in this.”


Yes. Flunk them if they refuse to learn. Same as math, shop class, or English.

234 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:08:51pm

re: #214 eclectic infidel

This clearly demonstrates why theology MUST be kept out the science class at the very least.

Again, the point is that theology is being kept out of science class.

/that's exactly why the religious zealot refusnik has a problem with the curriculum

235 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:09:18pm

re: #230 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*chuckle*
/teasing you, and I respect Benedict a lot

IIRC from the time of his election, he did run the Holy Office, which handles cases of challenges to the faith, heresy, and other stuff. Ages ago it was called (at least informally, or only in Spain) the Inquisition. That's merely a bit of trivia I picked up.

AND ,, it made for a great scene thanks to Mel Brooks

236 silversmith  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:09:19pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Please tell me you are not serious.

237 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:09:35pm

re: #228 Cognito

So you are saying you missed the part about the fight to get the new teaching standards approved, you missed the part about the teacher still teaching ID under the new standards, and chose to focus on Bryce. Bryce is just the foil in the story as you well know. The war isn't in right the classroom, that's reconstruction, and the pains on both sides thereof...

238 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:09:41pm

re: #234 Killian Bundy

Again, the point is that theology is being kept out of science class.

/that's exactly why the religious zealot refusnik has a problem with the curriculum

Preach on brutha! (oops)
/

239 eclectic infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:10:11pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

...and that's why this revival of creationism is an ati0intellectual movement. The kid knows the answer but refuses to accept it in favor of religious dogma. Empirical knowledge, reason and logic are trumped by scriptural dogma. If you wonder how the Muslim world got to be the way it is you're looking at it.

Yup. Abandonment of critical thinking doth leads to the dark side.

240 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:10:45pm

re: #195 de La Valette

I wish we could just indicate our POV on this topic, and a few others, in our profiles - it gets so confusing.

Like I know Kilgore Trout and I don't eye-to-eye on abortion but we probably are close on evolution, without having to have a thread to argue about it. I have noticed these threads have fewer and fewer proponents of Creation Science, and are a bit of an echo chamber.

That is true. Perhaps Charles, in his wisdom, will switch to a series on guns, the NRA and so on for a while. That's usually interesting too; and then when there have been enough new lizards we can come back to evolution for a new round, in between all the other stuff, of course.

241 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:17pm

OT: Paul McCartney will finally play in Israel [Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...] Great news, I hope he doesn't back out

242 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:18pm

re: #235 sattv4u2

AND ,, it made for a great scene thanks to Mel Brooks

I'm not familiar with many (perhaps not any) of Mel Brooks' movies.

/color me ignorant

243 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:19pm

argh. Yodalike speak I.

244 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:48pm

re: #237 Thanos

So you are saying you missed the part about the fight to get the new teaching standards approved, you missed the part about the teacher still teaching ID under the new standards, and chose to focus on Bryce. Bryce is just the foil in the story as you well know. The war isn't in right the classroom, that's reconstruction, and the pains on both sides thereof...

No, I didn't miss those things. My question, again, isn't whether we should rail against creationism taught in science class. It's where the railing stops.

245 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:52pm

re: #243 Thanos

argh. Yodalike speak I.

Understood you, I did.

246 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:12:13pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm not familiar with many (perhaps not any) of Mel Brooks' movies.

/color me ignorant

BLASPHEMER! Burn the heretic!
//

247 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:12:15pm

Looks like I picked a great time to fire my laptop back up. I'm ready to hear some people say that, despite not only piles of evidence but years of huddling with like-minded people, evolution is in fact a farce. Has that happened?

248 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:12:20pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm not familiar with many (perhaps not any) of Mel Brooks' movies.

/color me ignorant

you GOTTA rent it (History of the World Parts 1&2)

249 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:13:53pm

re: #246 Hard Right

BLASPHEMER! Burn the heretic!
//

uh ... give me a minute to method-act myself into a "Joan of Arc holiness" mental picture.

250 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:14:10pm

re: #245 Sharmuta

Understood you, I did.

Speaking of which. Has anybody seen Clone Wars?

Is it worth full ticket price, or should I wait for it to come out on DVD?

251 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:14:15pm

re: #211 natemannq

for the record,

I seem to remember getting admissions of atheism when I posed the question.

You are still assuming. Your assumption has to do with the meanings attributable to "faith" or similar.

252 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:14:31pm

re: #247 cliffster

Looks like I picked a great time to fire my laptop back up. I'm ready to hear some people say that, despite not only piles of evidence but years of huddling with like-minded people, evolution is in fact a farce. Has that happened?

I'm ready to say that you're laptop is a farce ,, does that count?

253 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:14:50pm

Is a public classroom private now Cognito? Is public discussion now private? Are statements made in class now private? Are statements written on exams private?

254 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:15:03pm

re: #232 JimmyTheClaw

I'm very much looking forward to Zombie's coverage.

255 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:15:09pm

re: #250 Syrah

If it's anything like the movies, I would wait for DVD. That way you won't feel cheated.

/still bitter about episodes 1-3

256 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:15:17pm

re: #250 Syrah

Haven't seen it yet. I'm sure it's at least worth matinee prices.

257 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:15:59pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm not familiar with many (perhaps not any) of Mel Brooks' movies.

/color me ignorant

Good grief!

258 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:16:03pm

I hab a col ab my brain hurbs so I wib refrain frob thib debabe

259 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:16:12pm

re: #249 pre-Boomer Marine brat

uh ... give me a minute to method-act myself into a "Joan of Arc holiness" mental picture.

Take your time. We're having a problem starting a fire. (You mean to tell me no one here smokes?! Damned health nuts.)

260 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:16:36pm

The teacher seemed to me to go to great pains to not oppose private belief Cognito.

261 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:16:40pm

re: #254 Killgore Trout

I'm very much looking forward to Zombie's coveragecleaverage.

262 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:17:06pm

re: #258 A Kiwi Infidel

I hab a col ab my brain hurbs so I wib refrain frob thib debabe

Heb codes suck.

263 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:17:11pm

re: #252 sattv4u2

I'm ready to say that you're laptop is a farce ,, does that count?

I had faith in what you said, and based on that I bashed my laptop into my head. As it turns out, what you said was bullsh*t!

264 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:17:23pm

re: #250 Syrah

Speaking of which. Has anybody seen Clone Wars?

Is it worth full ticket price, or should I wait for it to come out on DVD?

My son (14) a HUGE Star Wars fan does NOT want to see it. He says "the trailers I've seen are supposed to be from the best parts of a movie. If those are the BEST parts, I'll pass"

265 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:17:30pm

re: #259 Hard Right

Take your time. We're having a problem starting a fire. (You mean to tell me no one here smokes?! Damned health nuts.)

Wanna borrow my cigarette lighter?

266 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:18:39pm

re: #265 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Wanna borrow my cigarette lighter?

Gives new meaning to being "hoist upon ones own petard". :)

267 Fritz_Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:18:42pm

re: #197 Naso Tang

re: #175 Fritz_Katz
But why this major effort supporting evolution and attacking creationism? What's the agenda? And why now?


What makes you think this blog is a single issue forum? If it is not interesting to you all you have to do is wait a while.

And what makes you think that I was referring to this blog? If you'll re-read my #175, you will see that I was referring to the NY Times -- and the hundreds of column inches the Old Grey Lady is expending attacking creationism and defending evolution.

B.T.W., I do believe in evolution and think the creationists are completely wrong. It's just that I know the NY Times always has an ulterior motive.

268 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:19:06pm

re: #266 BlueCanuck

Gives new meaning to being "hoist upon ones own petard". :)

LOL

269 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:19:08pm

re: #263 cliffster

I had faith in what you said, and based on that I bashed my laptop into my head. As it turns out, what you said was bullsh*t!

at least you didn't bash the laptop pn something useful, like a chair or a table

270 newsjunkie_ky  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:19:12pm

FYI
On the Discovery Channel they are showing "the Flight that Fought Back" narrated by Keifer Southerland. It will be replayed in a few hours. I thought I had seen them all but somehow missed this one. It is very powerful.

271 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:19:41pm

Killgore, you still around?

272 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:20:07pm

This thread needs to be cleansed with a sage smudging ceremony.

273 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:20:08pm

re: #271 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Killgore, you still around?

no,,, he's heading to midnight Mass

274 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:20:57pm

re: #269 sattv4u2

at least you didn't bash the laptop pn something useful, like a chair or a table


Dont make me laugh, coz when I laugh I coff and when I coff I dont stop and it hurts.

275 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:21:24pm
276 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:22:32pm

re: #267 Fritz_Katz

And what makes you think that I was referring to this blog? If you'll re-read my #175, you will see that I was referring to the NY Times -- and the hundreds of column inches the Old Grey Lady is expending attacking creationism and defending evolution.

B.T.W., I do believe in evolution and think the creationists are completely wrong. It's just that I know the NY Times always has an ulterior motive.

they needed to fll the space left with all those advertisers leaving !

277 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:22:55pm

re: #264 sattv4u2

My son (14) a HUGE Star Wars fan does NOT want to see it. He says "the trailers I've seen are supposed to be from the best parts of a movie. If those are the BEST parts, I'll pass"

That is discouraging.

I am appalled at how they turned such a potentially good story into such whiny-mush. I thought that A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back were good. It all went to pot after that.

278 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:23:36pm

re: #267 Fritz_Katz

The "Why now" part is easy to answer. Discovery Institute keeps pushing the issue with lots of funding. On top of that "Expelled Exposed" is still making waves, it just went into DVD sales recently IIRC. On top of that, several states are in the throes of this, not just FL. Next door there's Louisiana for instance.

There's that thing in physics about opposite reactions...

279 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:23:38pm

re: #274 A Kiwi Infidel

Dont make me laugh, coz when I laugh I coff and when I coff I dont stop and it hurts.

ask cliffster for his laptop. When you get it, whack YOURSELF in the head. The pain will stop the laughter

280 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:19pm

re: #269 sattv4u2

That's crap. My head is very useful - holding up my hat, cushioning blows that might otherwise cause damage.. plus it has a mouth that provides a great place for drinking beer.

281 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:22pm

re: #275 ploome hineni

any relation?

MY G*D, Ploome!
That's an OLD one!
(I used to watch Felix. Thanks!)

282 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:35pm

re: #267 Fritz_Katz

And what makes you think that I was referring to this blog? If you'll re-read my #175, you will see that I was referring to the NY Times -- and the hundreds of column inches the Old Grey Lady is expending attacking creationism and defending evolution.

B.T.W., I do believe in evolution and think the creationists are completely wrong. It's just that I know the NY Times always has an ulterior motive.

Yes, I misread and thought you were by extension referring to this blog. My apologies.

However, I suggest that it is not the NYT which is bringing this matter to the fore, it is the creationist's stealth efforts to damage our education system, often in collusion with the far right, that has made it an issue of interest to many, not just the NYT.

283 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:46pm
284 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:49pm

re: #265 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Wanna borrow my cigarette lighter?

Hey, thanks.
(For crying out loud. Get REAL firewood. No, DURAFLAME logs don't count! You people will be the death of me. What? By you people I meant you guys. No I didn't mean that. You're being ridiculous. Fine go home then. Jeez)

Nuts. Here's your lighter back.

285 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:25:07pm
286 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:25:38pm

re: #280 cliffster

That's crap. My head is very useful - holding up my hat, cushioning blows that might otherwise cause damage.. plus it has a mouth that provides a great place for drinking beer.

ahh ,, good points. In that case, smack the laptop against Kiwi's head!

287 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:25:42pm

re: #279 sattv4u2

ask cliffster for his laptop. When you get it, whack YOURSELF in the head. The pain will stop the laughter


Trouble is my head hurts so much that if I whack it with a laptop, my eyes will probably pop out.

288 silversmith  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:26:00pm

re: #162 nyc redneck

How right you are. Courage is putting your hand in the fire knowing you will be burned. Wisdom is knowing when to put your hand in the fire.

289 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:26:48pm

re: #284 Hard Right

Ah nuts, and I had the hot dogs and marshmallows all ready too.

290 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:27:52pm

THe rosy sunset racces in from the east and touches the tops of the an Gabriel Mountains. (Towercam)

And God is a fact not dependent on anything, no, not even on what we humans think about evolution or the lack of it.

291 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:27:52pm

re: #285 ploome hineni

great music

Yes. Wonderful.

292 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:08pm

re: #282 Naso Tang

Yes, I misread and thought you were by extension referring to this blog. My apologies.

However, I suggest that it is not the NYT which is bringing this matter to the fore, it is the creationist's stealth efforts to damage our education system, often in collusion with the far right, that has made it an issue of interest to many, not just the NYT.

Creationist stealth efforts damaging our education system? I don't think so!

What is damaging our education system the most is the teachers hands being tied to not be able to take action against bad kids, the forced multiculturalism, and the laziness and apathy of parents who won't discipline their kids and train them to respect teachers and those who are their elders.

Let there be free inquiry and discipline in the schools and the creation/evolution system will settle itself.

293 Moe Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:27pm

I would like to know more about what ideas the creationists are actually proposing to put on school curricula regarding the origins of life, the universe, etc. Can anyone throw me a link or two that would bring me up to speed on that?

294 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:33pm

re: #289 BlueCanuck

Ah nuts, and I had the hot dogs and marshmallows all ready too.

Well, we have some duraflame logs to work with. Don't think it will help the taste tho.

295 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:39pm

re: #290 Ojoe

San Gabriel Mountains.

Sheesh.

PIMF


Good Night All.

296 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:55pm

re: #288 silversmith

How right you are. Courage is putting your hand in the fire knowing you will be burned. Wisdom is knowing when to put your hand in the fire.

/or, if you're Gordon Liddy, the trick is not minding the pain

297 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:01pm
298 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:30pm

re: #272 bellamags

This thread needs to be cleansed with a sage smudging ceremony.

Had forgotten ... used to live in San Diego - collected the stuff - grows wild there, dried it and smudged away. My stash was used up years ago after moving north. Gotta go get some. Almost as good as frankincense and myrrh ... used to have mini charcoal briquettes for burning them. Ah memories.

299 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:34pm

re: #287 A Kiwi Infidel

Trouble is my head hurts so much that if I whack it with a laptop, my eyes will probably pop out.

just don't get eye-juice on the laptop. The warranty doesn't cover that

300 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:42pm

re: #284 Hard Right

Hey, thanks.
(For crying out loud. Get REAL firewood. No, DURAFLAME logs don't count! You people will be the death of me. What? By you people I meant you guys. No I didn't mean that. You're being ridiculous. Fine go home then. Jeez)

Nuts. Here's your lighter back.

You and al Qaida! It's hard to get good help nowadays, isn't it?

Hey, belly up. We've got shots and beer. Whattya want? Tell me all about it.

301 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:43pm

re: #293 Moe Katz

I would like to know more about what ideas the creationists are actually proposing to put on school curricula regarding the origins of life, the universe, etc. Can anyone throw me a link or two that would bring me up to speed on that?

Here's one.

302 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:49pm

re: #283 ploome hineni

I LOVE Felix

Fritz is more fun

fooling around

303 MandyManners  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:30:25pm

Can *this* evolve into anything worthy of the title, Vice President of the United States of America?

304 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:31:27pm

re: #282 Naso Tang

I don't think creationists are trying to sabotoge our education system. I think they are afraid the students being taught evolution will start to question everything from the bible if they realize the story of Genesis is not literal. They are just afraid and or stubborn. The Bible and other religious books provide ways for people and societies to live happier and civil lives (excluding extremists on all fronts). The 10 commandments really make a lot of sense and give basic rules for humanity. The teaching of evolution is the only thing that creationists are bitching about as far as I know. Math, history, reading and other subjects are not an issue for these people.

305 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:31:59pm

re: #290 Ojoe

breathtaking

306 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:10pm

re: #301 Sharmuta

Here's one.

I thnk Moe is talking more in terms of links showing where Creationists are trying to force school districts to add ID to PUBLIC School cuuriculums

307 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:26pm

re: #292 songbird


Let there be free inquiry and discipline in the schools and the creation/evolution system will settle itself.

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?

308 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:39pm

re: #293 Moe Katz

I would like to know more about what ideas the creationists are actually proposing to put on school curricula regarding the origins of life, the universe, etc. Can anyone throw me a link or two that would bring me up to speed on that?

Many links have been posted in these threads. If you're looking for a starting place, here are the two things that I started with:

Wiki - "Wedge Strategy"

The Wedge Document

The goals and objectives on page 4 of the Wedge document are enlightening.

309 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:49pm

re: #303 MandyManners

Can *this* evolve into anything worthy of the title, Vice President of the United States of America?

Hey Mandy - I like you, you're funny. I apologize for harrassing you the other night about girls/women. ;)

310 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:54pm

re: #162 nyc redneck

Like the COEXIST bumper stickers that you see on peoples cars. The only people that could think that they are profound would be those that know nothing about the religions referenced.

311 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:04pm

re: #306 sattv4u2

That's not what Moe asked.

312 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:27pm

re: #297 ploome hineni

try google

Good advice from "da google queen".

313 silversmith  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:33pm

re: #282 Naso Tang

I find my local paper prints editorials that are mostly from right wing nut job that totally support the ID and Creationist philosophy. It make conservatives look like loonys and I think that is why they do it.

314 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:36pm

re: #303 MandyManners

Can *this* evolve into anything worthy of the title, Vice President of the United States of America?

Have you sent that linky to the McCain campaign HQ?

315 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:43pm

re: #307 Naso Tang

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?

do that with power tools, you get lots of kids nicknamed STUMPY

316 Moe Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:00pm

re: #306 sattv4u2

I thnk Moe is talking more in terms of links showing where Creationists are trying to force school districts to add ID to PUBLIC School cuuriculums

Yep, thanks for clarifying my meaning. I'd be interested in what they want to be said in the classroom.

317 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:19pm

re: #293 Moe Katz

Pandas and people was the last text they tried to push in public schools.

318 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:32pm

re: #290 Ojoe

THe rosy sunset racces in from the east and touches the tops of the an Gabriel Mountains. (Towercam)

And God is a fact not dependent on anything, no, not even on what we humans think about evolution or the lack of it.

I just love your towercam!

319 silversmith  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:36pm

re: #296 Killian Bundy

Pain good. Mongo like pain.

320 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:36pm
321 LotharBot  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:55pm

If you want to reach kids who've been brought up creationist* you have to do the following:

1) treat them with respect. The moment you treat them like an idiot is the moment you lose them. They're drawing conclusions based on faulty information; they're not stupid or evil (#96 leerayno, I'm looking at you.)

2) treat their religion with respect. You're trying to teach them evolution, not convert them to atheism or agnosticism... and if you are, you're exactly the kind of jerk who lends credibility to the creationists who see evolution as a war against their religion. (If you're trying to convert them away from their religion, please, don't go all Discovery Institute by using evolution as a wedge. I cannot stress this enough; equating evolution and atheism to make the case for EITHER means you are a part of the problem.)

3) take their ideas and objections seriously. Don't just dismiss everything they say as "creationist tripe" and try to indoctrinate them into a religion of evolutionism. Very often, the issues they raise are valid, either for scientific or philosophical reasons. Recognize when their objections or questions have merit, and address them accordingly**

4) give them correct information about evolution. If you just replace their creation myth with an evolution myth, you haven't really made any progress. You have to teach them things that are accurate, evidentially supported, and scientifically worthwhile. (More generally, if you teach anyone anything, make sure it's worth their time.) The goal is not to make them evolution believers, but to educate them as to what evolution is, how it takes place, and why it matters. (This step, by the way, means you need to understand evolution too. If you don't understand mutation, selection, drift, and gene flow as the four pillars of evolution, you have no business teaching. Go do some reading first.)

5) Don't think of it as a war that has to be bitterly fought and won at all costs; just make progress when you can. Don't think you have to completely overturn somebody's belief system in a matter of a few hours, or even months. And don't think you have to attack people whose beliefs are wrong; just respectfully teach them what you can when you have the opportunity.

By the way, most of this advice applies to anything else you teach, or any other context in which you try to influence people. You're not going to teach people evolution, or convert them to your religion, or get them to vote for NObama, or anything else, by standing on the street corner and calling them an idiot. You're not going to accomplish those things by ignoring their questions or objections. You're not going to accomplish those things by treating them like they're morons not worthy of your time. You're not going to accomplish them by bullying them into giving up their argument. You're only going to accomplish them by treating the person with respect and teaching them patiently and carefully.


* like, say, me; my parents had boxes of Chick tracts in the house, which gave me the idea that evolution was TEH EVIL. I later attained a masters studying evolutionary genetics in a mathematical biology program, and I'm still a hard-core Christian who teaches sunday school. I mostly believe in evolution, though I think there are areas that require more study.

** I couldn't get straight answers from people for a long time. When I brought up questions I tended to get answers like "your ideology has blinded you." It wasn't until grad school that I met people who accepted and addressed my curiosity rather than treating my questions like defense mechanisms.

322 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:35:18pm

re: #311 Sharmuta

That's not what Moe asked.

re: #316 Moe Katz

Yep, thanks for clarifying my meaning. I'd be interested in what they want to be said in the classroom.

I think it IS

323 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:35:36pm

re: #271 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yeah, still here for a bit.

324 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:35:54pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?

do that with power tools, you get lots of kids nicknamed STUMPY

Do not use remaining fingers as pushsticks

325 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:36:38pm

re: #324 solomonpanting

Do not use remaining fingers as pushsticks

always try to leave at least one digit attached to dial 911

326 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:36:43pm
327 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:36:49pm

I have experience being taught in a private baptist elementary school and public middle and high school. The baptist school did not teach creationism, just basic biology and physics (hot air rises, different types of clouds, etc.) They kind of skipped over the evolution part.

My high school just briefly touched on evolution (in the late 80's). I have a pretty well rounded view on science and I believe in evolution. You have to be not smart to not see it. I also believe in God and the same goes for that.

328 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:37:18pm

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You and al Qaida! It's hard to get good help nowadays, isn't it?

Hey, belly up. We've got shots and beer. Whattya want? Tell me all about it.

Yes, good mindless zealots are hard to come by. It's even worse when they're union.
Wish I could have a few drinks but I have to be up at 4am. Thanks tho. Have a good night and take care.

329 MandyManners  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:37:39pm
330 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:37:59pm

re: #329 MandyManners

Nighty-night!

Cya Mands

331 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:38:13pm

re: #316 Moe Katz

Yep, thanks for clarifying my meaning. I'd be interested in what they want to be said in the classroom.

/and keep in mind that, so far, in modern U.S. history, there's an infinite gap between what they want to be public school science curricula and what is, in fact, public school science curricula

332 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:38:24pm

re: #244 Cognito

No, I didn't miss those things. My question, again, isn't whether we should rail against creationism taught in science class. It's where the railing stops.

Agreed. Any orthodoxy which is extreme in application is a form can take on aspects of fascism. I am a Believer. But to deny the existence of evolution as a verifiable concept is foolhardy. There is room within the margins for both constructs being taught [to a degree]. Obviously, evolution as a more explicable discipline will have precedence. But it should not shut out the existence of a God/Creator even in a science class. The Truth is the Truth. When one views all things beautiful in nature and in the world in general, one is as close to witnessing the splendor and magnificence of God as ever. As Pope Benedict has recently declared, they are not mutually exclusive.

333 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:05pm
334 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:07pm

re: #321 LotharBot

that was pretty.

335 Alouette  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:11pm

OMG, OMG, I just watched The. Worst. Movie. Ever. which has just bumped The Second. Worst. Movie. Ever. out of first place on my list of 90 minutes of my life I will never get back.

I really love monster movies, I think they are cool. Here's my idea of the perfect monster movie, starring Kiefer Sutherland, Bruce Willis, Chuck Norris, Chris Rock and Whoopie Goldberg.

The monster trashes half of the U.S. but Kiefer, Bruce and Chuck kick its ass, Whoopie rapes it, and Chris tells jokes about its momma.

336 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:18pm

re: #304 bellamags

I don't think creationists are trying to sabotoge our education system. I think they are afraid the students being taught evolution will start to question everything from the bible if they realize the story of Genesis is not literal. They are just afraid and or stubborn. The Bible and other religious books provide ways for people and societies to live happier and civil lives (excluding extremists on all fronts). The 10 commandments really make a lot of sense and give basic rules for humanity. The teaching of evolution is the only thing that creationists are bitching about as far as I know. Math, history, reading and other subjects are not an issue for these people.

My daughter is a 10th grader this year and it seems that her Biology teacher is a gung ho evolutionist. While our family believes in creation rather than evolution (we do believe in some form of evolution within species - that just makes sense) we are not really literalists as far as Genesis is concerned. I guess what we would prefer is an acknowledgment that evolution is a theory and that, although many biological questions can be answered using an evolutionary model, there are other theories seem to give answers as well.

337 sparrowlake  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:20pm

re: #285 ploome hineni

great music

I used to watch the TV show when I was a kid - loved it.
Theme song:
Felix the cat, the wonderful wonderful cat,
Whenever he gets in a fix,
He reaches into his bag of tricks,
Felix the cat, the wonderful wonderful cat,
You'll laugh so hard your sides will ache,
Your heart will go pitter pat,
Watching Felix the wonderful cat.

338 Inquisitive  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:28pm

re: #125 Cognito

Charles,

Wait, wait, wait. There's a "war" now, apparently, and it's expanding. Moments ago, it seems, LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

I'll abstain from this one.

I don't agree with the people pushing religious belief onto students, and I don't agree with people trying to exorcise religious belief from students.

The punishment for refusing to answer a question on the grounds of religious belief is marks off a test score. The big red "F."

Certainly not "war" and a "fight."


THANK YOU COGNITO! I have spent 30 minuets typing and deleting, trying to say the same thing....the debate is suppose to be about what is taught in our schools science class.

339 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:53pm

re: #333 buzzsawmonkey

So you're well prepared for the Obama candidacy?

or to see Michael Moore and Roseann Barr floating over Denver

340 JimmyTheClaw  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:20pm

re: #270 newsjunkie_ky

FYI
On the Discovery Channel they are showing "the Flight that Fought Back" narrated by Keifer Southerland. It will be replayed in a few hours. I thought I had seen them all but somehow missed this one. It is very powerful.

replays at 1 am eastern time

341 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:27pm

re: #273 sattv4u2

The only midnight mass worth my while is Greek Orthodox Easter. I dig the tunes and I love the smell of the bees wax candles.

342 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:35pm
343 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:43pm

re: #332 wright1

But it should not shut out the existence of a God/Creator even in a science class.

No- God falls outside the realm of science and therefore cannot be taught in science class.

344 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:48pm

re: #307 Naso Tang

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?

Students need to learn critical thinking and logic skills. Teachers give facts and teach students to think - at least they should.

345 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:41:37pm

re: #325 sattv4u2

always try to leave at least one digit attached to dial 911

Do not look at laser with remaining eye

346 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:41:39pm

re: #275 ploome hineni

any relation?

You get an up-ding from me on that one!

347 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:41:44pm

re: #341 Killgore Trout

The only midnight mass worth my while is Greek Orthodox Easter. I dig the tunes and I love the smell of the bees wax candles.

it is something to see and hear(as long as you don't whack the bees nest to get the wax)

348 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:41:58pm

re: #323 Killgore Trout

Yeah, still here for a bit.

Just on a wild hair, have you ever seen/heard of an 80's movie called "The Scarlet and the Black"? Gregory Peck, Christopher Plummer, Sir John Gielgud?

349 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:42:17pm

re: #293 Moe Katz

I would like to know more about what ideas the creationists are actually proposing to put on school curricula regarding the origins of life, the universe, etc. Can anyone throw me a link or two that would bring me up to speed on that?

Here you go...

[Link: yadayahweh.com...]

350 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:42:25pm

re: #328 Hard Right

Yes, good mindless zealots are hard to come by. It's even worse when they're union.
Wish I could have a few drinks but I have to be up at 4am. Thanks tho. Have a good night and take care.

Thanks for the laughs!

351 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:42:52pm

re: #321 LotharBot


You could pretty much switch the words "creation/ism/ists" with "evolution/ism/ists" and your argument would continue to hold water. The one thing I hate about the crowd from Answers in Genesis is their mocking attitude. You make no friends, and only enemies, when mock another persons beliefs.

352 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:43:01pm
353 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:43:47pm

i think b.o. asked hillary and she refused.

354 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:44:01pm

re: #352 buzzsawmonkey

Funny, but I don't see a lot of people urging the "let the kids figure it out for themselves" approach as the best way to teach sex education.

I thought they named that Don't Ask/ Don't Tell

355 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:44:29pm

re: #304 bellamags

I don't think creationists are trying to sabotoge our education system.

Certainly, the word sabotage depends on one's perspective.


I think they are afraid the students being taught evolution will start to question everything from the bible if they realize the story of Genesis is not literal. They are just afraid and or stubborn.

True

The Bible and other religious books provide ways for people and societies to live happier and civil lives (excluding extremists on all fronts).


Unfortunately those who would want to force my kids under their religious indoctrination do qualify as extremists according to what I believe the principles of the USA to be.


The 10 commandments really make a lot of sense and give basic rules for humanity.

Actually there are more than 10, or several versions of the 10 depending on who you listen to, but it is not only Christians who apply the main principles involved, meaning they have no monopoly on morality.


The teaching of evolution is the only thing that creationists are bitching about as far as I know. Math, history, reading and other subjects are not an issue for these people.

Math, history, reading are a means to critical and creative thinking. They are not an end in themselves. Creationists, by definition, wish to destroy critical thinking, although they don't see it that way since they can't think critically.

356 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:44:50pm

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

357 MacGiolaPhadraig  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:45:31pm

Anyone else read Stephen Gould's "Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History"? Nothing I remember in it so much as mentioned creationism, but such a Tour de Force on the explosion of life in the pre-Cambrian, and the relationships between the wonderfully weird creatures preserved in the Burgess, that it changed a lot of minds!

358 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:45:48pm

what a joke for her to run as vice-p, w/ him.
she is enough of a buzzard to sense decay.

359 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:07pm
360 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:14pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

The Lizard of course.

It's turtles all the way down.

361 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:17pm

re: #333 buzzsawmonkey

heh. in more ways than you know.

It was a predominately white school. This new kid starts who happens to be black. No one really cared he was black. He was in the band as I and we both played the flute. I was first chair and had a specific seat to sit in each practice. On his first day, he sat in my seat. I asked him to move and he hit me with his flute. I was shocked. I went up and told the teacher what he did (5th grade) and the kid told the teacher I called him a ni**er. I did not and have not.

I had to do a report on Africa, stand in front of the whole cafeteria and apologize to him and run laps at recess for something I didn't do.

362 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:22pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Hmmm, Buffalo wings and omelettes? Dinner and breakfast in one...

363 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:42pm

re: #359 buzzsawmonkey

There's an old cartoon showing a chicken and an egg in bed, the chicken smoking a cigarette, and the caption is, "I guess we answered that question."

LOL!

364 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:58pm

BBIAW folks, time to start the commute to work.

365 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:11pm
366 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:12pm

re: #318 reine.de.tout

Actually the Towercam belongs to the astronomers at University of California Los Angeles.

I just put up a link here.

Glad you like it.

367 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:14pm

re: #341 Killgore Trout

The only midnight mass worth my while is Greek Orthodox Easter. I dig the tunes and I love the smell of the bees wax candles.

When I lived in Boston, I used to love to go to the Arch Street Church/ Christmas midnight mass. The ole latin chants, gregorian choir ,,, pretty
[Link: www.stanthonyshrine.org...]

368 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:15pm
369 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:19pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

The chicken is a chicken, while an egg is a potential chicken.

370 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:30pm

re: #369 Sharmuta

The chicken is a chicken, while an egg is a potential chicken omelet.

371 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:33pm

re: #343 Sharmuta

The problem is then that there is never a discussion of God/Creator -ever. While I am a Christian, I do not think it is appropriate to use public funds to endorse a particular Faith; however, to deprive students the opportunity to consider God as the cause, creation and everlasting power of their individual existence is to deprive them of an innate part of who they are, for each one of us somewhere acknowledges at least the possibility of the existence of one greater. Atheists deny this but invariably in a foxhole even they yield. And to that end I add, what is the harm of such acknowledgement other than a dose of humility?

372 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:44pm

So, all the chatting about evolution's points vs. creationism's points, yet, no real answer to: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

373 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:51pm

re: #352 buzzsawmonkey

Funny, but I don't see a lot of people urging the "let the kids figure it out for themselves" approach as the best way to teach sex education.


re: #369 Sharmuta

The chicken is a chicken, while an egg is a potential chicken.

Egg?

374 Inquisitive  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:51pm

re: #115 Salem

That's just sad. That there are people who wouldn't be disheartened to hear this talk from American teenagers in the 21st century is frustrating. And the people who bring up children this way, to reject science as a threat to their souls, deserve as much scorn as can be heaped upon them.

Your scorn for my Grandparents and Parents is not appreciated!
They did not have the education that you have obviously had, but should not be scorned for believing as they belived( in the Bible as Gospel) and bringing their children up in this believe.

375 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:19pm
376 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:25pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

re: #315 sattv4u2

re: #307 Naso Tang

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?/blockquote>

do that with power tools, you get lots of kids nicknamed STUMPY

But that will certainly prove evolution of the fittest in a hurry.

377 Kenneth  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:33pm

Frank Marshall Davis, Obama's Communist mentor, was statutory rapist

The book, which closely tracks Mr Davis’s life in Chicago and Hawaii and the fact that his first wife was black and his second white, describes in lurid detail a series of shockingly sordid sexual encounters, often involving group sex.

One chapter concerns the seduction by Mr Davis and his first wife of a 13-year-old girl called Anne. Mr Davis wrote that it was the girl who had suggested he had sex with her. “I’m not one to go in for Lolitas. Usually I’d rather not bed a babe under 20.

“But there are exceptions. I didn’t want to disappoint the trusting child. At her still-impressionistic age, a rejection might be traumatic, could even cripple her sexually for life.”

This is a man Obama described as "a mentor". Sickening beyong all bounds.

378 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:35pm

re: #371 wright1

Do you really want the government to teach children about God? I don't- I will teach my children about God, and the schools can teach them about everything else.

379 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:35pm

re: #369 Sharmuta

The chicken is a chicken, while an egg is a potential chicken.

yeah but, how did the chicken become a chicken?

380 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:59pm

re: #359 buzzsawmonkey

There's an old cartoon showing a chicken and an egg in bed, the chicken smoking a cigarette, and the caption is, "I guess we answered that question."


That would HAVE to be Gary Larson.

381 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:50:05pm

re: #372 outsidephilly

So, all the chatting about evolution's points vs. creationism's points, yet, no real answer to: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

In the dictionary,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, CHICKEN
In my local grocery store,,,, EGG

382 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:50:32pm

re: #379 outsidephilly

yeah but, how did the chicken become a chicken?

It evolved.

383 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:50:47pm
384 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:17pm

re: #382 Sharmuta

It evolved.

It evolved from what?

385 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:19pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

As someone here frequently says, try Google.

386 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:25pm

re: #377 Kenneth


Bastard!

387 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:28pm
388 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:34pm

re: #384 outsidephilly

It evolved from what?

Fish.

389 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:37pm

re: #379 outsidephilly

yeah but, how did the chicken become a chicken?

long nights of studying instead of going out partying

390 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:39pm
391 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:45pm

re: #386 A Kiwi Infidel

Sorry, not you Kenneth.

392 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:53pm

re: #361 bellamags

heh. in more ways than you know.

It was a predominately white school. This new kid starts who happens to be black. No one really cared he was black. He was in the band as I and we both played the flute. I was first chair and had a specific seat to sit in each practice. On his first day, he sat in my seat. I asked him to move and he hit me with his flute. I was shocked. I went up and told the teacher what he did (5th grade) and the kid told the teacher I called him a ni**er. I did not and have not.

I had to do a report on Africa, stand in front of the whole cafeteria and apologize to him and run laps at recess for something I didn't do.


You wouldn't have done that it if you were MY kid.
I can guarantee you that!

393 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:05pm

re: #321 LotharBot

WOW - Very good. Ever hear of OODA Loops and Col. John Boyd?

[Link: www.google.com...]

and

[Link: www.d-n-i.net...]

We need more like you that embrace effective methodology that works vs. wild eyed idealism.

394 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:12pm

re: #348 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I don't think I've seen that one. I do like Christopher Plumber though.

395 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:19pm

re: #372 outsidephilly

So, all the chatting about evolution's points vs. creationism's points, yet, no real answer to: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

I thought you were jesting with us.

The question "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" is a nonsense question. It presupposes that one came before the other, rather then having evolved dependently together.

396 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:26pm

re: #385 Naso Tang

As someone here frequently says, try Google.

nah, no need for Google - I already know the answer.

397 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #371 wright1

The problem is then that there is never a discussion of God/Creator -ever. While I am a Christian, I do not think it is appropriate to use public funds to endorse a particular Faith; however, to deprive students the opportunity to consider God as the cause, creation and everlasting power of their individual existence is to deprive them of an innate part of who they are, for each one of us somewhere acknowledges at least the possibility of the existence of one greater. Atheists deny this but invariably in a foxhole even they yield. And to that end I add, what is the harm of such acknowledgement other than a dose of humility?

The discussion just doesn't belong in public school science class.

/there's plenty of other outlets, including private school

398 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:52pm

re: #361 bellamags

your teacher was a racist.
and set a bad example for you and the lying boy.

399 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:59pm

re: #379 outsidephilly

yeah but, how did the chicken become a chicken?

By looking up, seeing the fox entering the hen house, and running like hell.

400 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:02pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

Do you really want the government to teach children about God? I don't- I will teach my children about God, and the schools can teach them about everything else.

Darn! I can only up ding once.

401 Racer X  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:11pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Fish came first, evolved into chicken.

The real question is which part of the chicken is nuggets?

402 LotharBot  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:22pm

re: #351 A Kiwi Infidel

You could pretty much switch the words "creation/ism/ists" with "evolution/ism/ists" and your argument would continue to hold water. The one thing I hate about the crowd from Answers in Genesis is their mocking attitude. You make no friends, and only enemies, when mock another persons beliefs.

Yes; as I said, it applies to almost anything else you teach.

Groups like Answers in Genesis, and people like PZ Myers, do us all a disservice. They turn the discussion into an emotional, judgmental, "my team vs your team" mess... which is a horrible way to learn or teach anything.

-----

When I was in 9th grade, my biology teacher did something brilliant: he told everyone when we started the evolution unit that, at the end of it, anyone with objections could give a short presentation. He also told us that, when answering test questions, we were expected to demonstrate that we'd understood what he taught, even if we disagreed. This accomplished three things:

1) kept us from interrupting in the middle of class or otherwise wasting everybody's time.

2) made us feel respected -- we were allowed not only to disagree with the teacher, but to explain why, and we weren't mistreated for it. But we also were held to standards of learning -- we couldn't simply say "I disagree with evolution" without being able to say what evolution was.

3) gave us a true knowledge of science, in the sense of inquiry and analysis of information. For many of us, it was the first time we'd really had to weigh bodies of evidence or evaluate research. We sucked at it, being all of 14 years old, but it was a great exercise.

403 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:42pm

re: #396 outsidephilly

nah, no need for Google - I already know the answer.

well I think thats great. Now if a game show would only call you, you'de be set !

404 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:51pm

re: #392 Typicalwhitey

I had to apologize that same day and run laps. When i was home doing the report, my dad found out what was going on. I had an easy time at that school after he had a meeting with the principal.

405 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:52pm

re: #389 sattv4u2

long nights of studying instead of going out partying

It's going to hell in a handbasket again!

406 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:53pm

re: #224 Naso Tang

You know what they say about assuming too much? Most atheists have plenty of faith, it just doesn't happen to be the scripture(s), which you appropriately don't name.

Atheists have faith?

Classic statement, meathead.

One for the annals.

407 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:04pm

re: #371 wright1

The problem is then that there is never a discussion of God/Creator -ever. While I am a Christian, I do not think it is appropriate to use public funds to endorse a particular Faith; however, to deprive students the opportunity to consider God as the cause, creation and everlasting power of their individual existence is to deprive them of an innate part of who they are, for each one of us somewhere acknowledges at least the possibility of the existence of one greater. Atheists deny this but invariably in a foxhole even they yield. And to that end I add, what is the harm of such acknowledgement other than a dose of humility?

That would be an appropriate subject in a philosophy class or religion class; not science class which teaches facts-not faith.

408 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:09pm

re: #367 sattv4u2

I'm glad that Benedict has taken on interest in reviving the Latin and Full Sung Mass. I think it's a good move. Even I'd show up occasionally for the free music. Wine and crackers are a plus.

409 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:38pm

re: #405 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It's going to hell in a handbasket again!

I tole ya ,, I keep TRYIN' !

410 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:46pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

Do you really want the government to teach children about God? I don't- I will teach my children about God, and the schools can teach them about everything else.

I only wish I could have as much faith in our public schools or our parents for that matter. I was a Prosecutor in Newark, N.J. for many years and I have seen many, many bad things. While you are a capable parent - others are not. Worse, are our educators...The introduction of a Creator is a positive notion, especially to the extent that the student is unbound from Narcissism and Selfishness, something acknowledgment of a Creator gives. Again, humility is a worthy subject in our schools.

411 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:58pm

re: #388 Sharmuta

It evolved from what?

Fish.

Not if the policy at the time had been Roe v. Wade.

412 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:55:17pm

re: #408 Killgore Trout

I'm glad that Benedict has taken on interest in reviving the Latin and Full Sung Mass. I think it's a good move. Even I'd show up occasionally for the free music. Wine and crackers are a plus.

I got news for you ,,,, the wine ,,,, it's not the best, if you know what I mean

413 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:55:55pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

You are persistent. What makes you think you are asking the right question to begin with in order to understand what you don't understand?

414 Moe Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:55:57pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Neither. The matzo ball soup was first, followed by the gefilte fish.

415 MacGiolaPhadraig  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:14pm

re: #379 outsidephilly

The question presupposes one or the other, as currently "configured" had to exist before the other. Not a valid supposition. Same sort of question as "Could God make a weight so heavy even He couldn't move it?"

416 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:20pm

re: #410 wright1

Would you feel that way if the Creator discussed was allah? How can you have been a prosecutor and not have a grasp on the Constitutional implications of your suggestion?

417 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:21pm
418 Kenneth  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:35pm

re: #391 A Kiwi Infidel


I kmow who you meant.

This biography of Davis lists the book.

419 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:43pm

re: #408 Killgore Trout

Wine and crackers are a plus.

/and you wonder why you offend Catholics

420 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:57:25pm

re: #415 MacGiolaPhadraig

The question presupposes one or the other, as currently "configured" had to exist before the other. Not a valid supposition. Same sort of question as "Could God make a weight so heavy even He couldn't move it?"

are we back to talking about Micheal Moore, Roseann Barr and Rosie O'Donnel?

421 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:57:33pm

re: #396 outsidephilly

nah, no need for Google - I already know the answer.

Funny, you don't sound like you do. Are you a troll?

422 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:57:35pm

re: #212 Sharmuta

You should check your sexist assumptions at the door.

re: #205 natemannq

That's a strawman. I didn't say I knew all. But I do know many people here supporting evolution are Christians or Jews who've read plenty of scripture.

sexist?

wow. Frankly, I have no idea WHAT sex you are.

423 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:58:08pm

I worry that if the state were to teach about God, the state would eventually teach that the state is God.

424 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:58:10pm
425 MacGiolaPhadraig  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:58:28pm

re: #420 sattv4u2

are we back to talking about Micheal Moore, Roseann Barr and Rosie O'Donnel?

I have no earthly idea what that means.

426 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:58:49pm

re: #419 Killian Bundy

/and you wonder why you offend Catholics

I'm Catholic,, that didn't offend me ,, (see my #412)

427 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:02pm

re: #422 natemannq

Gee- you could try clicking on my avatar. You know- it might be a clue.

Or- you can admit I had a point when I said you assume too much, since you now admit you don't know my gender, but called me a man anyways.

428 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:19pm

re: #412 sattv4u2

Tell me about it. When I'm elected Pope (which should be any day now) I'll ditch the "ritual meal", move mass to later on Sunday afternoon (large screen available for football season), I serve a real host of fresh bread, decent wine, acceptable cheese and cold cuts.

429 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:24pm

re: #425 MacGiolaPhadraig

I have no earthly idea what that means.

sorry ,,,,guess you weren't here earlier

430 mobaby  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:27pm

re: #96 leereyno

There was a survey I read about (possibly here) indicating that about 47% of the US public believed in creationism. Now I'm not one to take surveys at face value, but if you assume for a moment that this survey was not a push survey and that its methodology was sound, then its results say something very interesting when compared with another statistical phenomenon.

At any given time, 50% of the population is of below average intelligence. It doesn't matter what that average is, with 300+ million people, the results will always follow a normal distribution.

I think if you were to measure the IQ's of the people who were in that 47% who believe in creationism, you would find that virtually all of them fall to the left of the 50% mark when it comes to IQ.

In other words, belief in creationism (as normally defined) is a pass/fail IQ test.

I must ask - where do the true blue evolution believers rank on the EGO scale?
There are apparently a lot of below average IQ medical doctors, nurses, teachers, police, politicians, lawyers, astronauts, and engineers as I have personally know people who believe in an intelligent designer from all of these professions. Idiot savants I suppose.

431 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:32pm

re: #423 Syrah

I worry that if the state were to teach about God, the state would eventually teach that the state is God.

Now I regret I have but one ding to give.

432 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:46pm

re: #419 Killian Bundy

It's no mystery.

433 repj  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:49pm

If they wanted to be truly scientific, then they'd allow all theories to be presented in an unbiased manner. Yet, there are human beings we are dealing with...

434 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:57pm

re: #403 sattv4u2

well I think thats great. Now if a game show would only call you, you'de be set !

re: #413 Naso Tang

You are persistent. What makes you think you are asking the right question to begin with in order to understand what you don't understand?

The answer to that question frees my up brain from sorting out creationism vs evolution.

435 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:15pm

re: #404 bellamags


Good deal!
I will always back a teacher if my daughter is talking to much, chewing gum etc.

But if she flat tells me that she did not do something and it is a he said/she said thing, then I will back her 100 percent.

I had a somewhat similar situation when I was in school.
It evolved into a fist fight between me and the girl.
I won lol, but we were both told we would be suspended.
UNTIL that is, my mom showed up.
We had been having some race problems at the school and my mother told the principle that I HAD to stand up for myself and if I was punished in any way that she was going to sue the school for racial discrimination (and I am white!)
She won.
Don't mess with the kids of the chick who grew up with the Italians lol.

436 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:18pm

re: #384 outsidephilly

It evolved from what?

the "chicken" (early dinosaur) is what evolved from an egg laying reptile to a creature, that due possibly to a primitive virus, developed a shell like substitute structure internally, a placenta and retained the fertilized gamete internally.
that's how it happened.
rather than deposit the egg externally the female incubated the offspring in her uterus and the placenta allowed this to happen.

437 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:22pm

re: #343 Sharmuta

No- God falls outside the realm of science and therefore cannot be taught in science class.

You are correct IF you're willing to concede a class on Faith / God warrants the same mandatory status as evolution.

438 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:28pm

re: #366 Ojoe

Actually the Towercam belongs to the astronomers at University of California Los Angeles.

I just put up a link here.

Glad you like it.

Oh, gee, you mean you don't own that wonderful towercam?

Joking. I knew it wasn't really your personal towercam, it's just the one you keep putting up. I love it.

439 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:30pm

re: #394 Killgore Trout

I don't think I've seen that one. I do like Christopher Plumber though.

Find it, rent it. Don't know if you'll like it, but it's an intelligent script and damned well acted. Don't trust the book reviews, most get it wrong. It's a classic character study of good versus evil (existential, no moralizing), seen through men's choices and actions, and based on a true story from WWII.

Peck plays a Vatican priest hiding escaped Allied POWs after Italy's capitulation. Plummer plays the head of the SS in Rome. Gielgud plays the wartime Pope.

440 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:36pm

re: #433 repj

If they wanted to be truly scientific, then they'd allow all theories to be presented in an unbiased manner. Yet, there are human beings we are dealing with...

there are? I thought we were dealing with chickens and eggs !

I'm SOOOO confused !

441 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:47pm

re: #416 Sharmuta

Would you feel that way if the Creator discussed was allah? How can you have been a prosecutor and not have a grasp on the Constitutional implications of your suggestion?

Well that really goes more to being a lawyer and yes, I understand well the division between Church and State. But, as I said earlier, I am not endorsing one particular Faith. Recall, my reply was to Cognito wherein I agreed this is really a discussion [or should be] about boundaries. On the margins, there is room to mention the G-Word. Phobia of the word will not enhance education, in my view and I recognize it is my view - it will stunt it...

442 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:56pm

re: #433 repj

If they wanted to be truly scientific, then they'd allow all theories to be presented in an unbiased manner. Yet, there are human beings we are dealing with...

Except- in science class, it has to withstand scientific scrutiny. ID can't do that, it's not science, so it doesn't belong.

443 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:01:14pm

re: #434 outsidephilly

The answer to that question frees my up brain from sorting out creationism vs evolution.

whatever floats your boat

444 Racer X  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:01:23pm

Heh.

AOL poll shows McCain leading Obama 66% to 34%.

445 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:01:39pm

re: #437 natemannq

That violates the Constitution.

446 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:01:44pm

re: #409 sattv4u2

I tole ya ,, I keep TRYIN' !

yer very tryin'
(-:

447 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:02:05pm

re: #410 wright1

I only wish I could have as much faith in our public schools or our parents for that matter. I was a Prosecutor in Newark, N.J. for many years and I have seen many, many bad things. While you are a capable parent - others are not. Worse, are our educators...The introduction of a Creator is a positive notion, especially to the extent that the student is unbound from Narcissism and Selfishness, something acknowledgment of a Creator gives. Again, humility is a worthy subject in our schools.

So you think that the primary purpose of schools and teachers is to be surrogate parents and homes?

448 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:02:23pm

re: #431 Sharmuta

Now I regret I have but one ding to give.

We shall share our burdens.

449 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:02:28pm

re: #408 Killgore Trout

I'm glad that Benedict has taken on interest in reviving the Latin and Full Sung Mass. I think it's a good move. Even I'd show up occasionally for the free music. Wine and crackers are a plus.

Damn, Killgore, I hate it when you say something I agree with
(Just kidding!).

450 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:02:29pm

re: #446 pre-Boomer Marine brat

yer very tryin'
(-:

you been talking to my wife, haven't you !

451 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:02:45pm

re: #433 repj

If they wanted to be truly scientific, then they'd allow all theories to be presented in an unbiased manner. Yet, there are human beings we are dealing with...

All theories? Some are theories, some are beliefs.

452 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:02:57pm

re: #436 nyc redneck

the "chicken" (early dinosaur) is what evolved from an egg laying reptile to a creature, that due possibly to a primitive virus, developed a shell like substitute structure internally, a placenta and retained the fertilized gamete internally.
that's how it happened.
rather than deposit the egg externally the female incubated the offspring in her uterus and the placenta allowed this to happen.

. . . , but where did the female come from?

453 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:03:26pm

re: #439 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Thanks, I'll try to check it out.

454 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:03:41pm

re: #427 Sharmuta

Gee- you could try clicking on my avatar. You know- it might be a clue.

Or- you can admit I had a point when I said you assume too much, since you now admit you don't know my gender, but called me a man anyways.

No one EVER pretends to be someone they're not on the internet.

I STILL have no idea what sex you are but I'll take your word for it.

Female, right?

Same as Eve?

455 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:03:44pm

re: #423 Syrah

I worry that if the state were to teach about God, the state would eventually teach that the state is God.

Many in the "State" already do try to do that.

456 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:04:02pm

re: #419 Killian Bundy

/and you wonder why you offend Catholics

I could easily be wrong, but I suspect he's "pulling your chain"
(-:

457 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:04:08pm

re: #441 wright1

So- you'd be okay with schools teaching about allah?

458 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:04:20pm

re: #444 Racer X

Heh.

AOL poll shows McCain leading Obama 66% to 34%.

Haha. Crap now, but might be true come November!

459 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:04:30pm

re: #437 natemannq

You are correct IF you're willing to concede a class on Faith / God warrants the same mandatory status as evolution.

Does every religion-faith get equal time? Druids? Ancestor worship, etc...? Just curious.

460 mich-again  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:05:31pm

I found a speech Joe Biden gave in September 2006 with some good one liners.


We must help resolve a generational war between Arabs and Israelis. And we must engage in a long-term war of ideas for the hearts and minds of tens of millions of Muslims.

Meanwhile, Iran is closer to the bomb and its reform movement is on the ropes.

Five years ago, President Bush pledged to capture Osama bin Laden. But then he redirected our military away from Afghanistan and toward Iraq. Today, bin Laden remains at large, and his videotaped messages inspire others to act.

Because we hyped the intelligence before going in, our ability to convince allies -- and the American people --- of new dangers has been diminished. Because we diverted our energy and resources from Afghanistan, it is on the verge of failure.

This administration has no strategy for success in Iraq. It has a strategy to prevent defeat and pass the problem along to the next President. The overwhelming reality in Iraq is a sectarian cycle of revenge. Throwing more troops at Baghdad won’t fix this mess. We need a political settlement that allows each group to pursue its interests peacefully.

461 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:05:33pm

re: #449 reine.de.tout

I like the Greek Orthodox Easter thing but generally I like the Pope's dj's better. What's not to like?

462 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:06:01pm

re: #452 outsidephilly

. . . , but where did the female come from?

there are male and female plants. sexual differentiation had long been established before animals roamed the earth.

463 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:06:16pm

re: #456 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I could easily be wrong, but I suspect he's "pulling your chain"
(-:

/no, he's an admitted, militant atheist, he hates and fears religion, just ask him

464 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:06:38pm

re: #447 Naso Tang

Of course not but the nature of teaching is to teach things a parent would never teach or in most cases understand. In places like Newark, the only place I have personal knowledge, the kids who I ended up prosecuting were without any tools at all. Would it have hurt them to consider the existence of someone or something greater - I doubt it. They certainly were not grasping evolution.

465 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:06:44pm
466 canam[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:06:51pm
467 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:07:10pm

re: #450 sattv4u2

you been talking to my wife, haven't you !

I don't know your wife, but having had one for 25 years once upon a time, I get the drift.
(-:

468 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:07:27pm

re: #221 Sharmuta

What does that have to do with anything?

Nothing. Just keep typing.

469 Colonel Panik  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:08:08pm

re: #436 nyc redneck

the "chicken" (early dinosaur) is what evolved from an egg laying reptile to a creature

Back in the day when I was a wee lad at Punahou along with Osama Obama, we had a classmate who was always talking about how birds evolved from dinosaurs. So we gave him the nickname, "chickasaurus".

470 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:08:21pm

re: #433 repj

If they wanted to be truly scientific, then they'd allow all theories to be presented in an unbiased manner. Yet, there are human beings we are dealing with...

What is the point in trying to pretend to be unbiased about that which is wrong? Somehow that seems to negate the very concept of education.

471 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:08:23pm

re: #457 Sharmuta

I thought I was pretty clear about that - no endorsement of any particular Faith does not exclude discussion of a God/Creator...

472 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:08:30pm
473 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:08:35pm

re: #464 wright1

I think it's possible to teach manners, ethics and morality without opening the door to faiths many of us would object to being taught in public schools.

474 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:08:45pm
475 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:08:57pm
476 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:09:34pm

re: #466 canam

Because discussing islam isn't discussing religion?

477 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:09:42pm
478 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:09:47pm

re: #452 outsidephilly

. . . , but where did the female come from?

Give us a break. Sexes also evolved; but you know the answer. What is it?

479 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:10:11pm

re: #466 canam

Go to another thread?

480 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:10:13pm

re: #471 wright1

I thought I was pretty clear about that - no endorsement of any particular Faith does not exclude discussion of a God/Creator...

Do you really think the islamists wouldn't abuse it?

481 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:10:25pm

re: #9 Killian Bundy

Flunk.

/just like pressing the Easy Button

Yup

482 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:10:46pm

re: #463 Killian Bundy

/no, he's an admitted, militant atheist, he hates and fears religion, just ask him

*chuckle* I have my own (half-baked) opinion on that, which I shall keep to myself.

Don't take that wrong. I understand very well what you're basing that upon. You have a good point.

483 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:10:56pm

re: #466 canam

I have not been on this site very long but as sure as I am that there is a God, I am pretty sure that the proprietor of this site does not appreciate being told what is and what is not in vogue - my advice, if this thread does not hold any interest, move along to another...

484 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:11:00pm

born alive infant protection act.

b.o. is the only senator to want that child dead, even if it is alive and kicking when born
.no one is going to be punished w/ a child if he has anything to say abt. it.

485 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:11:15pm

re: #379 outsidephilly

yeah but, how did the chicken become a chicken?

Let's look at the question.

What came first:
The alligator or the egg?
The reptile or the egg?
The mammal or the egg?
The evolutionary sequence has and is argued on and on.

We don't frikin know. So all this is a pissing contest with the evolutionists with the longest wankers for now winning - ego mania.

And WGAF - do the best you can with what you got.

Altho, I am reminded of a story of each of the two climbing a mountain with their own separate beliefs ... and meet god on top. heh.

486 Racer X  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:11:58pm

re: #466 canam

Readers of this website do not come here to discuss religion or evolution. It's become a distraction and is annoying. It's time to get back to what truly matters: the threat of extremist Islam and the very real possibility that a socialist could become the president of the United States. Enough with the creationist/Darwinist argument.

LGF started out primarily with bicycle talk and evolved from there.

487 jaunte  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:12:08pm

re: #466 canam

Readers of this website do not come here to discuss religion or evolution. It's become a distraction and is annoying. It's time to get back to what truly matters: the threat of extremist Islam and the very real possibility that a socialist could become the president of the United States. Enough with the creationist/Darwinist argument.

You present a false dichotomy, much like that presented by the DI folks.
Readers of this website come here for a lot of things.

488 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:12:10pm
489 Charles  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:13:00pm

Comments ordering me to stop posting on the subject of evolution will be deleted.

490 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:13:09pm

re: #486 Racer X

LGF started out primarily with bicycle talk and evolved from there.

But the site is intelligently designed.

491 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:13:15pm

re: #419 Killian Bundy

/and you wonder why you offend Catholics

I'm Catholic, and wasn't offended.
I do believe certain folks use the word "cracker" rather than "host" as an attempt to offend humans; but in the long run, I sort of figure God doesn't care what word is used, He cares about what how we act and whether we act towards others in good faith or not. Whatever Killgore intends by using "cracker" instead of "hose" is in his own heart, and I will assume it is not out of meanness that he uses that term.

492 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:13:26pm
493 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:13:33pm

re: #490 pre-Boomer Marine brat

But the site is intelligently designed.


It has evolved!

494 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:13:42pm
495 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:13:48pm

re: #461 Killgore Trout

I like the Greek Orthodox Easter thing but generally I like the Pope's dj's better. What's not to like?

You've done my Choral Director/Early Music Geek soul some good tonight!

Thanks!

496 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:13:55pm
497 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:14:09pm

re: #466 canam

Readers of this website do not come here to discuss religion or evolution. It's become a distraction and is annoying. It's time to get back to what truly matters: the threat of extremist Islam and the very real possibility that a socialist could become the president of the United States. Enough with the creationist/Darwinist argument.

You don't tug on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't ever insult the host
And you don't tell him what to post

498 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:14:17pm

re: #482 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*chuckle* I have my own (half-baked) opinion on that, which I shall keep to myself.

Don't take that wrong. I understand very well what you're basing that upon. You have a good point.

Killgore is nothing but open and consistent in his beliefs.

/exceptionally admirable, wrongheaded as it may be

499 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:14:18pm

re: #480 Sharmuta

And that has been you best point and as someone who is deathly afraid of Sharia becoming just another name for the Code of Criminal Justice, yes, I agree. But do we capitulate to extremist radicals by denying common sense because we fear the advent of creeping fundamentalism - I am not so sure...

500 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:14:24pm

re: #427 Sharmuta

Gee- you could try clicking on my avatar. You know- it might be a clue.

Or- you can admit I had a point when I said you assume too much, since you now admit you don't know my gender, but called me a man anyways.

If your sex was the assumption to which you refer (assuming you are indeed female), I concede..

That said, your allegation of assumptiveness on my part was a bit nebulous and short on specificity with respect to what I was assuming.

501 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:14:47pm

re: #476 Sharmuta

Because discussing islam isn't discussing religion?

we agree 100% on that one

502 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:14:50pm

re: #423 Syrah

I worry that if the state were to teach about God, the state would eventually teach that the state is God.

And therein lies the problem!

503 mobaby  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:14:53pm

I think Bryce really hit the nail on the head when it comes to the desire to not have your life ruled by God. Hey - I am just an evolved animal living out my animal instincts - no morals needed or even applicable. This applies to everyone from the swinger to the murderer to the pedophile. I am just living up to the animal instincts I inherited from my evolutionary history. I was recently working on a project with a major hospital and the marketing person I was speaking with talked about a psychiatrist who worked at the hospital who had explained to her that pedophiles were just living out their animalistic programming - they can't help it, they were born that way! The Creator God requires standards above that (just a little) although He knows we won't live up to those standards - thus grace and forgiveness through Christ.

504 RepJ  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:14:56pm

Keeping information away from children is uneducational on both sides of the argument.

505 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:15:23pm

re: #500 natemannq

If your sex was the assumption to which you refer (assuming you are indeed female), I concede..

That said, your allegation of assumptiveness on my part was a bit nebulous and short on specificity with respect to what I was assuming.

Is that you Barack?

506 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:15:24pm

re: #478 Naso Tang

Give us a break. Sexes also evolved; but you know the answer. What is it?

I like the prime rib view of woman's creation!

507 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:15:29pm

re: #464 wright1

Of course not but the nature of teaching is to teach things a parent would never teach or in most cases understand. In places like Newark, the only place I have personal knowledge, the kids who I ended up prosecuting were without any tools at all. Would it have hurt them to consider the existence of someone or something greater - I doubt it. They certainly were not grasping evolution.

I suspect that a great many of those you have seen did their time in church at a younger age, but simply teaching such matters as an educational topic is not enough. Christianity has had 2000 years to apply that principle and if it were that simple we would all be getting along just fine by now.

508 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:15:46pm

re: #493 Typicalwhitey

It has evolved!

Then ... *sputter* ... *fume* ... its design has evolved intelligently!

509 LotharBot  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:15:58pm

re: #393 Bobibutu

WOW - Very good. Ever hear of OODA Loops and Col. John Boyd?

People post about him a lot on Chicago Boyz, and even had some sort of multi-blog weekend "roundtable" on Boyd/OODA. While his ideas are not the original inspiration for what I described above, I've found them useful in developing the current formulation.

The fact is, when it comes down to it, evolution/creation isn't a "war" to be won. It's ideas to be taught, and people to be educated. And frankly, we (as a whole, not you specifically) need a lot more patience, maturity, and respect in the way we approach those on the "other side".

510 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:16:03pm

re: #489 Charles

I had a feeling that was about to occur - it was evolutionary...

511 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:16:05pm

re: #462 nyc redneck

there are male and female plants. sexual differentiation had long been established before animals roamed the earth.

I hear ya . . . , again, my pea-brain isn't good at sorting through all of that. So, I just take what I was taught a very long time ago.
Here's what my parents taught me ". . . , And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."
I'm content knowing/believing when God created a chicken, He produced a chicken, not a baby chick. He created a chicken yeilding seed/egg for future chickens :o) GOOD STUFF!

512 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:16:11pm

re: #371 wright1

The problem is then that there is never a discussion of God/Creator -ever. While I am a Christian, I do not think it is appropriate to use public funds to endorse a particular Faith; however, to deprive students the opportunity to consider God as the cause, creation and everlasting power of their individual existence is to deprive them of an innate part of who they are, for each one of us somewhere acknowledges at least the possibility of the existence of one greater. Atheists deny this but invariably in a foxhole even they yield. And to that end I add, what is the harm of such acknowledgement other than a dose of humility?


Very well said.

513 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:16:12pm

re: #489 Charles

Comments ordering me to stop posting on the subject of evolution will be deleted.

Kwel - is there someway we can test that? ;-)

514 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:16:29pm
515 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:16:31pm

re: #466 canam


You are disproved.

You have added a comment to this topic after some 465 comments have been posted to it.

It is not my favorite topic. But it is still a topic that is self evidently something that people here are willing to discuss.

While it is not my favorite topic, neither you nor I have to participate in it if we choose not to.

There are many topics posted. Some that I enjoy discussing, many that I do not.

Enjoy what you can, ignore the rest.

516 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:16:58pm

re: #508 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Then ... *sputter* ... *fume* ... its design has evolved intelligently!

Well.....for the MOSt part anyway lol

517 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:17:04pm

re: #506 songbird


You sound suspiciously like a certain banned lizard, one S & D man.

518 steve  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:17:25pm

re: #3 CynicalConservative

Brainwashing in action...

I have seen brainwashing on both sides of the debate.
So what is the problem. You want to believe in evo or cre, go right ahead, be my guest.

519 sparrowlake  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:17:33pm

re: #371 wright1

what is the harm of such acknowledgement other than a dose of humility?

1. Destroys intellectual inquiry - once you believe you have the answers, you feel no further need to ask the questions.
2. Thin edge of the wedge - once you believe an unproveable, you become vulnerable to being persuaded to believe anything that cannot be disproven.
3. Breeds feelings of superiority - once you believe you have the answer, you will tend to look down on those who disagree or who remain uncertain.
4. May cause intolerance - if your belief is irrational, you may feel threatened by and hostile toward those who expose the unreasonableness of your beliefs.

520 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:17:48pm

re: #466 canam

Guess what: A big reason Democrats have a good chance of controlling the White House and Congress this year is the negative publicity Republicans have received from being associated with these literal biblicalists.

521 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:18:13pm

re: #407 Outrider

That would be an appropriate subject in a philosophy class or religion class; not science class which teaches facts-not faith.


see how you are?

The guy is willing to concede a MAJOR portion of your argument and you remain unyielding..

522 greenmiler  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:18:19pm

re: #508 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Then ... *sputter* ... *fume* ... its design has evolved intelligently!

I think it is intelligently designed with ajax evolution

523 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:18:43pm

re: #498 Killian Bundy

Killgore is nothing but open and consistent in his beliefs.

/exceptionally admirable, wrongheaded as it may be

Yeah. I don't agree with him on a good bit of it, but I've seen good character in things he's done here.

524 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:18:52pm

re: #499 wright1

I think that faith education belongs in church. If parents are of the mind to not attend church- that is their right as Americans. We don't subvert their rights by forcing it on their children in school. However- we can enforce basic principles of right and wrong that are secular and transcend religion. I really don't think it's so difficult to teach children not to do things to others that they would not want done to them. The Golden Rule is secular enough- it has it's roots in Confucian thought.

525 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:19:13pm

re: #512 natemannq

Thank you. I am choosing me words carefully because this issue is a hot button. But there is a way to find common ground or at least avoid the rancor. I read a lot of the older threads devolve. I am open to being persuaded but I have seen what I have seen...

526 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:19:19pm

re: #517 A Kiwi Infidel

You sound suspiciously like a certain banned lizard, one S & D man.

I know him but ain't him!

Just a humble music teacher in Southern NM who happens to lean creationist. 'Tis not a sin, is it?

527 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:19:32pm
528 Racer X  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:20:00pm

Maroons: start your own blog and have a sock-puppet circle-jerk.

Post about daisies and their inter-species relationships with butterflies.

529 Moe Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:20:15pm

re: #474 ploome hineni

pistil and stamens

very sexy

Hey, there were monoecious plants way before humans ever swung both ways....

530 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:20:29pm

re: #469 Colonel Panik

Back in the day when I was a wee lad at Punahou along with Osama Obama, we had a classmate who was always talking about how birds evolved from dinosaurs. So we gave him the nickname, "chickasaurus".

what a great marketing idea to move the chickenwich from burger king.
the "chickasaurus meal"

531 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:20:34pm

re: #406 natemannq

Atheists have faith?

Classic statement, meathead.

One for the annals.

As an example, I have faith in the fundamental decency of humans, even those who think they need to be told what to think.

I can come up with other similar concepts, but they would likely be wasted on one who collects points at your level.

532 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:20:41pm

re: #526 songbird

I know him but ain't him!

Just a humble music teacher in Southern NM who happens to lean creationist. 'Tis not a sin, is it?


Heck no, its not what we do or think that makes us sinners, its what we are.

533 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:20:47pm

re: #491 reine.de.tout

Thanks, plussed. More liturgical music for you: Rastaman chant.
Time to eat da fish.
/Namaste, y'all

534 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:20:54pm

re: #518 steve

I have seen brainwashing on both sides of the debate.
So what is the problem. You want to believe in evo or cre, go right ahead, be my guest.

My problem with either position is indoctrinating children in either position before the age of reason (which I don't have a solid number on).

535 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:21:21pm

re: #532 A Kiwi Infidel

Heck no, its not what we do or think that makes us sinners, its what we are.

True Dat!

536 profitsbeard  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:21:32pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

"What came first, the chicken or the egg?"

The yolk's on you.

Dinosaurs laid eggs long before the first feathered fowl flew.

A better question:

How do we know what we know?

(Hint: Epistemology.)

537 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:21:39pm

re: #445 Sharmuta

That violates the Constitution.

Hardly...

Studying Faith does not necessitate believing in God...

With all due respect, the type of unyielding mindset you have is akin to the ACLU on this matter.

538 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:22:17pm
539 Fritz_Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:23:10pm

re: #444 Racer X

Heh.
AOL poll shows McCain leading Obama 66% to 34%.

I donno about that -- I 'spect that one of the Freepers over at FreeRepublic said "Freep this poll!", and the results were skewed.

Note From AOL: Our weekly survey was restarted again on Monday, Aug. 18 at 4PM ET. We will be launching a new version of this poll shortly that includes third-party presidential candidates.

And when they do, Ron Paul will win!

540 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:23:22pm

re: #509 LotharBot

People post about him a lot on Chicago Boyz, and even had some sort of multi-blog weekend "roundtable" on Boyd/OODA. While his ideas are not the original inspiration for what I described above, I've found them useful in developing the current formulation.

The fact is, when it comes down to it, evolution/creation isn't a "war" to be won. It's ideas to be taught, and people to be educated. And frankly, we (as a whole, not you specifically) need a lot more patience, maturity, and respect in the way we approach those on the "other side".

No argument ... profound insight!

The Marines picked up on this with TTP, 4-5-and 6 GW Warfare.

541 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:23:25pm

two jews on an island and they decide to have 3 shuls

why you ask so that they can have a shul that neither of them would go to.

542 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:23:39pm

re: #536 profitsbeard

"What came first, the chicken or the egg?"

The yolk's on you.

Dinosaurs laid eggs long before the first feathered fowl flew.

A better question:

How do we know what we know?

(Hint: Epistemology.)

Cuz your wife tells you?

543 steve  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:23:59pm

re: #534 CynicalConservative

I also have a problem with indoctrinating kids. Either way. So what do we do to come up with middleground in the debate? And when do we start to teach it to kids?

544 realwest  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:24:21pm

re: #503 mobaby The only problem with what you said:

I think Bryce really hit the nail on the head when it comes to the desire to not have your life ruled by God. Hey - I am just an evolved animal living out my animal instincts - no morals needed or even applicable.

is that it assumes two things which I don't think are true: a) atheists and agnostics have no morals or moral code and are just out to have a good time and b) those who follow the literal word of the Bible regarding creation do have those moral or a moral code which says to "put off having a good time" until Judgement Day.
In either event I disagree with you. Some people I've known have been strongly Atheistic and extremely moral folks and some of the people I've known who consider themselves "good people of faith" don't live their lives that way at all. And that, btw, doesn't just apply to creationsists, it applies to other Christians and to Jews alike.

545 RepJ  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:25:18pm

Personally, I don't think either evolution or creationism has the absolute answer to our past. However, for one side to ignore any scientific evidence from the other is highly ignorant and arrogant.

And try to remember when you are posting a comment that you should not automatically assume the person you are smarting off to believes the most stupid thing you've ever heard of on the internet. You could be talking to your neighbor, ya know.

546 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:25:30pm

re: #459 Outrider

Does every religion-faith get equal time? Druids? Ancestor worship, etc...? Just curious.

We're over-complicating this when you consider this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values...

We left Europe because of persecution based on Christian / Jewish denominations being forced upon us..

Your example presupposes that not having a class on druid worship excludes people who wish to practice it.

At the end of the day, that's NOT why we left Europe....

547 tradewind  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:25:53pm

re: #250 Syrah

I took a young-ish child to see it last weekend. It filled in the history for me, a not -all-that-much-Star-Wars person, so that was worth it. The kid liked it. The storyline was okay, and it was interesting to learn more about Jabba and his Hutts.
The animation was really lame, though. Hair and beards , for example, looked carved out of wax, skin colors were -meh-, and it was just not great visually. I guess I am used to the Shrek/KungFuPanda type, and there isn't much comparison.

548 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:25:59pm

re: #545 RepJ

Creationists don't have any scientific evidence.

549 Pawn of the Oppressor  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:26:03pm

re: #520 basho

Guess what: A big reason Democrats have a good chance of controlling the White House and Congress this year is the negative publicity Republicans have received from being associated with these literal biblicalists.

You take your truth and get out of here. What do you think this is? Common Sense Land? More like COMMIE Sense Land, you destroyer of all that is good and Holy!

/smacks basho with a Bible and calls for torches and pitchforks

550 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:26:10pm

easy have a class on science and have a different class on theology the two are different subjects.

551 Alouette  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:26:11pm

re: #384 outsidephilly

It evolved from what?

T-Rex

552 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:26:12pm
553 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:26:18pm
554 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:26:40pm

re: #543 steve

I also have a problem with indoctrinating kids. Either way. So what do we do to come up with middleground in the debate? And when do we start to teach it to kids?

Here's a radical thought: teach evo in science class, and kids can learn ID in church.

555 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:26:43pm

re: #524 Sharmuta

I got you. But I agree to disagree. It is a little bit ivory-tower to ask for such a demarcation. I am telling you that I have seen kids come out of terribly bad schools who hardly know who Washington was rather than MLK. Is it a panacea to try to instill in them the existence of a God/Creator, perhaps. But sometimes seeds on strewn on the ground that appears full of unfertile craggy thorns finds fertile ground. And to those receivers that comprehend the idea, what harm is there? Again, the answer is as discussed hereto, only that it is the slippery slope. But I side with opening the Pandora's box for the good it may yield.

556 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:27:21pm

re: #547 tradewind

I took a young-ish child to see it last weekend. It filled in the history for me, a not -all-that-much-Star-Wars person, so that was worth it. The kid liked it. The storyline was okay, and it was interesting to learn more about Jabba and his Hutts.
The animation was really lame, though. Hair and beards , for example, looked carved out of wax, skin colors were -meh-, and it was just not great visually. I guess I am used to the Shrek/KungFuPanda type, and there isn't much comparison.

Thats it then.

DVD.

557 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:27:27pm

re: #335 Alouette

No soundtrack. That was the problem with "Cloverfield".

558 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:27:40pm

re: #545 RepJ

Personally, I don't think either evolution or creationism has the absolute answer to our past. However, for one side to ignore any scientific evidence from the other is highly ignorant and arrogant.

And try to remember when you are posting a comment that you should not automatically assume the person you are smarting off to believes the most stupid thing you've ever heard of on the internet. You could be talking to your neighbor, ya know.

With all due respect, what scientific evidence buttresses ID?

559 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:27:45pm

re: #521 natemannq

see how you are?

The guy is willing to concede a MAJOR portion of your argument and you remain unyielding..

There is nothing to yield. Science is science. Faith is faith. When I go to a science class I expect to be taught science: "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world." The subjects covered in basic science classes, as was discussed in the above story, are required for the students to learn advanced aspects of their future science classes. A firm understanding of the book of Genesis will be of little value in any university science class. That would be a major disservice to these students.

560 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:27:52pm
561 twincitiesgirl  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:28:16pm
But in a nation where evangelical Protestantism and other religious traditions stress a literal reading of the biblical description of God’s individually creating each species, students often arrive at school fearing that evolution, and perhaps science itself, is hostile to their faith.

Bingo!--some scientists do appear to be downright hostile to the creationist viewpoint and the kids take this as an attack on their personal belief in God. A newer and friendlier approach is needed. Take a cue from the very cool scientists at CERN's Large Hadron Collider. Make science fun, interesting and approachable and kids will flock to it---like a moth drawn to the light.

I can't believe he used how Mickey has changed (which is ok for 8-9 year olds) to teach high school kids--funny this didn't offend some of them.

562 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:28:17pm
563 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:28:25pm

re: #553 buzzsawmonkey

Dammit, only one up-ding allowed!

564 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:28:33pm

re: #545 RepJ

Personally, I don't think either evolution or creationism has the absolute answer to our past. However, for one side to ignore any scientific evidence from the other is highly ignorant and arrogant.

And try to remember when you are posting a comment that you should not automatically assume the person you are smarting off to believes the most stupid thing you've ever heard of on the internet. You could be talking to your neighbor, ya know.

At the risk of sounding arrogant, and being your neighbor, given that there is no scientific evidence on the creationist side, there is nothing to ignore and therefore evolution is neither arrogant nor ignorant.

/On the other hand....

565 steve  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:28:44pm

Oh crud, I see my supervisor looking for me. Means I have to go to work or answer some stupid question for him. I will try to get back later.
Everyone have a good evening and sleep well or have a good day. Depending where you live on this big beautiful world.

Steve

566 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:28:51pm

re: #553 buzzsawmonkey

. . . Unindoctrinated kids are savages. Your job, if you have kids, is to indoctrinate them properly.

And then hope and pray that it "takes" at some point in their life . . .

567 Alouette  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:28:53pm

The cave-mom feeds her cave-kids newly-evolved chicken. She tells them, "It tastes like raptor!"

568 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:29:21pm

Let's start wading into churches and round up all the kids!

/oh wait, they tried that in Texas, had to give 'em all back

569 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:29:21pm

re: #505 Typicalwhitey

Is that you Barack?

It's actually me, "Barrack" (one more "r" than Obama)

570 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:29:32pm

re: #551 Alouette

T-Rex

And thats when all our problems started.

571 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:29:54pm

re: #550 yochanan

easy have a class on science and have a different class on theology the two are different subjects.

But we have that now. Why do you think all classes have to be in schools?

572 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:30:01pm

re: #546 natemannq

On what Constitutional grounds are you going to deny the Druids, or even the islamists, equal time?

573 stanlef  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:30:15pm

Hey Charles,
Is it me or is the dateline on LGF's Front page stuck on Saturday Aug 23.

/or is it a 9/11 conspiracy

574 realwest  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:30:30pm

re: #552 ploome hineni
First of all, I think "moral codes" are an integral part of religion - but not the exclusive province of religion.
I was brought up and believed for a LONG TIME in Agnostisim - but to also believe in and live by the Golden Rule (and no, I don't mean he who has the most gold wins). I think the basis of most moral codes today is what most folks would consider peer pressure or community mores: you don't force sex on anyone, you don't physically harm anyone (except in self-defense) and you don't take that which doesn't belong to you.
How it is that I came to believe in God and in Jesus Christ is a personal matter which I don't wish to discuss.

575 Alouette  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:30:37pm

re: #557 rawmuse

No soundtrack. That was the problem with "Cloverfield".

It was the wobbly hand-held camera that made me want to throw up. Gah. I wonder how much vomit they had to clean off the theater seats and floor?

576 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:30:42pm

re: #543 steve

I also have a problem with indoctrinating kids. Either way. So what do we do to come up with middleground in the debate? And when do we start to teach it to kids?

I wish I had the answer. As I stated previously, I don't know the average age of reason and I agree to finding a middle ground for the debate.

Full Disclosure -
Raised Catholic
Abandoned all vestiges of religion in early teens
Have solidified my life outlook over the past 25 years
Have no kids
Don't want kids

577 So?  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:30:49pm

After all is said and done on the evolutionary ladder, I have one simple question:

Can you define what the mind is?

578 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:31:06pm

re: #555 wright1

Then you open Pandora's box to shari'a.

579 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:31:07pm

....ok, one more:Sanctus
/Bite me
//g,nite for real

580 HoosierHoops  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:32:11pm

Hi Ya Lizards! everybody playing nice?
shout out to charles, buzzsaw and esp. Reine
So I just got home from the Colts first game at the brand new lucas oil stadium..
What a place and the hoopster is very impressed.. we walked around and checked it all out..just awesome and i'll post more about it in the
open thread..
Had a wonderful time and just consider this a little break from ID.. Take a deep breathe..OK..
I am so excited to see the zombies posts this week..
This is now 'can't miss' convention coverage..
This is going to be great!

581 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:32:20pm

well jews left euroland because it wasn't safe to be a jew there.
the combination of jewish and christian values is purely an american thing did not happen in euroland.

and your american moonbat is very anti christian and anti jewish. so even though i am rather secular i am not anti religion but i don't make secularism into a religion like the commies did.

582 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:32:25pm

re: #546 natemannq

. . .We left Europe because of persecution based on Christian / Jewish denominations being forced upon us..

Your example presupposes that not having a class on druid worship excludes people who wish to practice it. . . .

What are you trying to say? That makes no sense whatsoever.

583 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:32:32pm

re: #561 twincitiesgirl

Glad to see you're still posting on these threads. Beware of using the word "cool" though ;)

584 Tigger2005  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:32:34pm

re: #410 wright1

I only wish I could have as much faith in our public schools or our parents for that matter. I was a Prosecutor in Newark, N.J. for many years and I have seen many, many bad things. While you are a capable parent - others are not. Worse, are our educators...The introduction of a Creator is a positive notion, especially to the extent that the student is unbound from Narcissism and Selfishness, something acknowledgment of a Creator gives. Again, humility is a worthy subject in our schools.

So, what you're saying here is, because the parents are failing to give their children the religious/spiritual instruction you feel the children need, it is up to the State, through the public schools, to introduce children to the concept of a Creator. So...how do we choose which Creator to teach the children about? Or do we just teach them some vague generality, along with some vague and general prayers?

It's unclear to me how belief in a creator necessarily frees a child from narcissisism and selfishness, or makes a child humble. Many believers are narcissistic, selfish, and lacking in humility, and many atheists and agnostics are just the opposite. A believer who feels the creator of the Universe loves him, wishes to bless him in abundance, and supports and guides him in this thoughts, decisions, and actions has considerable potential to be narcissistic, selfish, and egotistical (note that I am not saying this is always the case). Meanwhile, an athiest who recognizes his limits and believes he alone is responsible for his actions and their consequences can be quite humble.

In any case, I think you need to think about the enormous potential for abuse your idea carries. Why do you trust the State to instruct children in religion in the "right" way, since you already lack faith in our public schools? Our government already does many things to encourage religion and ensure its free practice, and partly as a result of this the U.S. is perhaps the most religious country in the First World. Let churches reach out to unchurched kids with inattentive parents.

Surely children can be taught (and shown) virtues like humility and decency toward others without reference to a Creator.

585 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:32:59pm

re: #546 natemannq

We're over-complicating this when you consider this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values...

We left Europe because of persecution based on Christian / Jewish denominations being forced upon us..

Your example presupposes that not having a class on druid worship excludes people who wish to practice it.

At the end of the day, that's NOT why we left Europe....

One major question is WHO determines which faith would be discussed in this "science" class? Community based? School commissioner? PTA? Local preacher? Or is the Christian God by default?

586 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:33:10pm

re: #134 Killian Bundy

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

/that's when I'll fear a "Theocracy" in this country

BWAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAA!

A-friggin-men...

587 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:33:10pm

re: #546 natemannq

We're over-complicating this when you consider this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values...

We left Europe because of persecution based on Christian / Jewish denominations being forced upon us..

Your example presupposes that not having a class on druid worship excludes people who wish to practice it.

At the end of the day, that's NOT why we left Europe....

Who is this WE of which you speak?

588 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:33:31pm

re: #543 steve

I also have a problem with indoctrinating kids. Either way. So what do we do to come up with middleground in the debate? And when do we start to teach it to kids?

What do you teach your kids that's not indoctrinating them?

589 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:33:37pm
590 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:33:41pm

re: #583 basho
cool, kool, kewl, cool! Nyah, nyah! Heh.

591 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:33:56pm

re: #573 stanlef

Hey Charles,
Is it me or is the dateline on LGF's Front page stuck on Saturday Aug 23.

/or is it a 9/11 conspiracy

Uh Oh. Damn copycats.

592 twincitiesgirl  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:34:18pm

re: #437 natemannq

Not sure I'm understanding you--a mandatory class on faith in a public high school classroom?

If so, you can see the problems can't you? If taught at the high school level it would have to be offered as a class in comparative religion and it would have to be voluntary. Even then you may have parents object unless you included the atheist/agnostic viewpoint.

593 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:34:18pm

re: #577 So?

After all is said and done on the evolutionary ladder, I have one simple question:

Can you define what the mind is?

The mind is the soul.

594 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:34:29pm

If you lean toward the habit of prayer, please remember my dear Mr. Songbird. He's had two interviews for important FEMA positions and a third tomorrow morning for the same type of position. This is the job he was made for, and we really hope he gets one of them.

595 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:34:35pm

re: #575 Alouette

I wonder how much vomit they had to clean off the theater seats and floor?

It's a janitorial product resembling sawdust, lay it down, wait a minute, sweep it up.

/51 week veteran of the original theatrical run of E.T.

596 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:34:37pm

re: #465 buzzsawmonkey

In a private religious school, certainly. In fact, pitch the evolution if you want to, as long as you don't care about the kiddies making it into college.

If you think a class on "faith/G-d" warrants "mandatory status" in a public school, you have a very odd notion of both faith and public school.

Maybe when Doc comes flyin' around in his Delorian, he can take you back to the late 1700's and you can see how integral the belief in God and Judeo/Christian faith was to our very psyche as a culture..

597 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:34:37pm
598 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:34:45pm

you can teach a compartive religion class you just can't say which one is correct in public 'skools'

599 HoosierHoops  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:35:03pm

Realwest..How are you tonight?

600 Tigger2005  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:35:31pm

re: #577 So?

After all is said and done on the evolutionary ladder, I have one simple question:

Can you define what the mind is?

How do you know there's a mind?

601 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:36:07pm

re: #586 Oh no...Sand People!

BWAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAA!

A-friggin-men...


In the meanwhile, make sure you wear an anorak and have an umbrella handy, when you visit San Fran.

Just dont be there when The Almighty says "Enough!"

602 Moe Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:36:11pm

re: #308 reine.de.tout

Many links have been posted in these threads. If you're looking for a starting place, here are the two things that I started with:

Wiki - "Wedge Strategy"

The Wedge Document

The goals and objectives on page 4 of the Wedge document are enlightening.

Thanks, that is scary stuff alright.

603 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:36:40pm

re: #585 Outrider

there was no"Judeo" in euro Judeo-Christian values. it simply wasn't there at all. AMERICA is different.

604 Tigger2005  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:36:44pm

I believe in mind over matter!

If you don't mind, it don't matter!

605 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:36:51pm

re: #579 Killgore Trout

/Bite me

/well, that's better than melting down and repeatedly demanding everyone suckle your private parts

606 Kulhwch  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:37:09pm

re: #395 Syrah

I thought you were jesting with us.

The question "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" is a nonsense question. It presupposes that one came before the other, rather then having evolved dependently together.

Actually, I believe the chicken came first.  Mutations happen in an organism that are then passed on down to the offspring.

}:)     [It IS a nonsensical question, tho, one designed to stop the exchange of ideas, so you're correct there.]

607 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:37:12pm

re: #600 Tigger2005

How do you know there's a mind?

What is mind? No matter. What is matter? Nevermind.

608 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:37:14pm

re: #602 Moe Katz

And I hope it helped you understand my earlier link. I wasn't so off, was I?

609 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:37:15pm

Good night allre: #573 stanlef

Hey Charles,
Is it me or is the dateline on LGF's Front page stuck on Saturday Aug 23.

/or is it a 9/11 conspiracy

I think you're looking at the link to yesterday's postings. I've made the same mistake.

610 twincitiesgirl  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:37:37pm

re: #583 basho

Cool? Did you say Cool? What do you mean by COOL? Explain yourself--

611 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:37:38pm
612 realwest  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:37:40pm

re: #589 ploome hineni
And I answered you.

613 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:38:09pm

Oops that got crossed up on my prior --

Good night all.

614 eclectic infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:38:10pm

re: #371 wright1

The problem is then that there is never a discussion of God/Creator -ever. While I am a Christian, I do not think it is appropriate to use public funds to endorse a particular Faith; however, to deprive students the opportunity to consider God as the cause, creation and everlasting power of their individual existence is to deprive them of an innate part of who they are, for each one of us somewhere acknowledges at least the possibility of the existence of one greater. Atheists deny this but invariably in a foxhole even they yield. And to that end I add, what is the harm of such acknowledgement other than a dose of humility?

Children have the opportunity to learn about religion and faith both at home and at church, from parents & clergy alike.

615 realwest  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:38:17pm

BBIAM.

616 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:38:22pm

re: #611 ploome hineni
I hate getting wedgies in my boxers.

617 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:38:40pm

re: #580 HoosierHoops

Hi Ya Lizards! everybody playing nice?
shout out to charles, buzzsaw and esp. Reine

Good evening, HH, hope things are well with you!

618 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:38:48pm
619 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:39:03pm

re: #600 Tigger2005

How do you know there's a mind?

Larry: [Handed his first joint] I won't go schizo, will I?
Jennings: It's a distinct possibility.

Larry: [to Jennings, while high] Okay. That means that our whole solar system could be, like one tiny atom in the fingernail of some other giant being. [Jennings nods] This is too much! That means one tiny atom in my fingernail could be--
Jennings: Could be one little tiny universe.
Larry: Could I buy some pot from you?

620 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:39:40pm

re: #559 Outrider

There is nothing to yield. Science is science. Faith is faith. When I go to a science class I expect to be taught science: "knowledge covering general truths of the operation of general laws, esp. as obtained and tested through scientific method [and] concerned with the physical world." The subjects covered in basic science classes, as was discussed in the above story, are required for the students to learn advanced aspects of their future science classes. A firm understanding of the book of Genesis will be of little value in any university science class. That would be a major disservice to these students.

The problem is that in YOUR science class, you purposely EXCLUDE that which has not been proven to be false.

That VIOLATES laws of science.

621 pet85022  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:39:43pm

#10 flynmudd 8/24/08 6:04:56 pm

Thousands and thousands of years ago in the arctic there were these brown bears. Being brown against a white background did not make for easy hunting. Eventually a lighter brown bear was born and this bear found it easier to hunt for food. This light brown bear had light brown offspring and they all found it easier to hunt, the darker brown bears started to die off. SLOWLY through generations of breeding with lighter and lighter bears (who found it easier to hunt) you eventually get a white polar bear. Dark genes are still there and sometimes you find a grayish brown polar bear. They don't last long because they are fairly easy to see and hunting is difficult. Remember evolution does not happen overnight and you will never see something evolve in your lifetime because the changes are so subtle.
Just because you can't see the changes that does not mean they are not happening. Just because you can't see god does that mean god does not exist?

622 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:40:05pm
623 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:40:12pm

'skools' used to teach moral values now they don't and you can see the failure of there product. ethics and morals are important. unless your a democrat pol.

624 Inquisitive  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:40:55pm

re: #571 Naso Tang

But we have that now. Why do you think all classes have to be in schools?


Because some parents do not see that their children get the "theology classes" at home, so it would be good if all high schools offered this class as an elective class...not required like science(3 years required at our high school).

625 jaunte  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:41:12pm

re: #620 natemannq

"that which has not been proven to be false"
Not susceptible to scientific proof. So, not part of science class.

626 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:41:23pm

re: #560 ploome hineni

no I don;t think so

Would "Christian" denominaitions be better?

My point was that Judeo Christian values are what we were founded on and that things only got complicated when we began compromising those values.

Islam's ability to infiltrate this country as an example.

627 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:41:30pm

global warming isn't science either it is politics
just as i.d isn't science either it is theology

628 Moe Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:41:38pm

re: #603 yochanan

there was no"Judeo" in euro Judeo-Christian values. it simply wasn't there at all. AMERICA is different.

And it's quite a recent notion and not universally accepted by Christians.

629 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:41:46pm

re: #610 twincitiesgirl

Cool? Did you say Cool? What do you mean by COOL? Explain yourself--

:)

630 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:41:47pm

re: #620 natemannq
Get a grip. You can't prove or disprove something that is FAITH! Faith is of the soul. Not in the realm of science.

631 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:41:52pm

re: #603 yochanan

there was no"Judeo" in euro Judeo-Christian values. it simply wasn't there at all. AMERICA is different.

Thanks, but you need to respond to "natemannq". That was his response to me.

632 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:42:12pm

re: #620 natemannq

The problem is that in YOUR science class, you purposely EXCLUDE that which has not been proven to be false.

That VIOLATES laws of science.

Now that's one for the annals, demonstrating the missing fundamental understanding of what science is.

633 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:42:28pm

re: #623 yochanan

'skools' used to teach moral values now they don't and you can see the failure of there product. ethics and morals are important. unless your a democrat pol.

Teachers in our district are expected to teach "Character".

Where are the indoctrinating parents who actually do their job? I wish there were more of them out there!

634 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:42:37pm

Two words: private schools!

/public schools have enough problems with the openly socialist teachers unions wreaking havoc on public education

635 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:43:02pm

re: #572 Sharmuta

On what Constitutional grounds are you going to deny the Druids, or even the islamists, equal time?

Islamists are already getting MORE than equal time because we continue to beat our Judeo-Christian values down.

Have you looked around lately?

636 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:43:04pm

re: #624 Inquisitive
It is not the goddamn nanny states business to instill moral values of its choosing on its citizens.

637 RepJ  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:43:13pm

The scientific evidence I find interesting deals with the age of the planet and geology. For instance, someone has theorized (can't remember who right now but it was a creationist) that canyons were not formed via rivers alone. Seismic activity can play a bigger role and there are some examples of that in Mt. St. Helens. I saw something on Discovery Channel about Yosemite being a humongous caldera which puts a different perspective on sites like the Grand Canyon. Maybe there is some merit to this theory? Also, evolution seems to take place quickly (galapogas) which could shorten the span of our past.

All I'm saying is that the sciences are too interesting for people to take one side and tell all others to shut up, and quite frankly, no scientist (or person interested in science) should do such a thing. Yeah, there are some real kooks out there, and they should be put in their place for falsifying evidence, but don't let it ruin your objectivity completely.

638 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:43:24pm
639 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:43:31pm

Some people don't like it when I mention this, but it's a fact- many of the Founding Fathers were Deists.

640 Zimriel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:43:36pm

Helping people learn is hard work.

I think it be harder to make them unlearn

641 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:43:56pm

re: #634 Killian Bundy

Two words: private schools!

/public schools have enough problems with the openly socialist teachers unions wreaking havoc on public education


Boy, aint that the truth, even down here in NZ

642 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:44:19pm
643 Colonel Panik  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:44:47pm

re: #530 nyc redneck

what a great marketing idea to move the chickenwich from burger king.
the "chickasaurus meal"

He was absolutely obsessed with the fact that some scientists had claimed that the closest living relative to Tyrannosaurus Rex was the chicken. Hence "chickasaurus" or if we were really feeling snotty, "chickasaurus rex".

I really didn't give a rosy rats a** about evolution in high school. I was a model rocket nerd. Specific impulse, center of gravity versus center of pressure, drag coefficients, that sort of thing.


Whether you believe in Evolution or ID has no impact on your ability to design a rocket that will put a man in orbit, or lob a warhead at Moscow.

However, one does need to believe in what Kepler, Newton and Niklaus Kopernik discovered.

644 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:44:49pm

re: #634 Killian Bundy

Two words: private schools!

/public schools have enough problems with the openly socialist teachers unions wreaking havoc on public education

One problem with private schools.

At our local private school I could get paid 22K a year with a Master's degree in Music.

Right now a new teacher with a Master's degree earns 35K per year.

Until we get some form of School Vouchers, teachers won't be paid what they are worth in private schools.

645 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:44:56pm

re: #582 reine.de.tout

What are you trying to say? That makes no sense whatsoever.

And you question my intelligence?

wow

646 Tigger2005  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:44:59pm

re: #596 natemannq

Maybe when Doc comes flyin' around in his Delorian, he can take you back to the late 1700's and you can see how integral the belief in God and Judeo/Christian faith was to our very psyche as a culture..

That was then. You can't FORCE it to be that way again. You can, through your individual efforts and through your church, try to persuade people to turn back to God and re-embrace Judeo/Christian values. But I think you'd do well to do so in a way that doesn't alienate non-believers who are quite patriotic, thank you, and generally follow Judeo/Christian values because they think they're just common sense.

647 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:45:03pm

re: #634 Killian Bundy

Vouchers.

648 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:45:24pm

re: #635 natemannq

Islamists are already getting MORE than equal time because we continue to beat our Judeo-Christian values down.

Have you looked around lately?

Oh-kaaay. So- on what Constitutional grounds are you going to deny the Druids, or even the islamists, equal time?

649 Inquisitive  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:45:28pm

re: #594 songbird

If you lean toward the habit of prayer, please remember my dear Mr. Songbird. He's had two interviews for important FEMA positions and a third tomorrow morning for the same type of position. This is the job he was made for, and we really hope he gets one of them.

Will do!

650 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:45:30pm

re: #642 ploome hineni
Now, now. I have faith. Someone can have faith and not be delusional. Be nice ploome! :)

651 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:45:46pm

re: #620 natemannq

The problem is that in YOUR science class, you purposely EXCLUDE that which has not been proven to be false.

That VIOLATES laws of science.

What? If something can NOT be proven false it is automatically true? That muddy logic is the entire premise behind the troofers mind blowing assertions.

But, yes. In most cases I do that.

652 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:45:59pm
653 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:46:00pm

re: #620 natemannq

The problem is that in YOUR science class, you purposely EXCLUDE that which has not been proven to be false.

That VIOLATES laws of science.

Agreed. My kids haven't been taught about genies and ogres. For shame.

654 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:46:05pm

re: #587 Naso Tang

Who is this WE of which you speak?

that would be the founders of this nation.

655 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:46:10pm

re: #591 Naso Tang

Uh Oh. Damn copycats.

LOL! Perhaps they've lost a day, too!

656 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:46:11pm

i think jill stanek, the nurse who held that born alive baby (from the abortion attempt) feels really bad she didn't do more.
i think it needed some medical attention from the trauma of the abortion.
it might have survived w/ some minor attention.
she held it for an hr. and it died in her arms,
i think i would have left that hospital w/ that baby and called 911.
that baby was a living breathing human being at that point.

657 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:46:15pm

re: #624 Inquisitive

Because some parents do not see that their children get the "theology classes" at home, so it would be good if all high schools offered this class as an elective class...not required like science(3 years required at our high school).

So, as an example, you have no problem with "teaching" why atheists don't believe in God, nor why the Bible is inconsistent with itself and with the Koran, and just let the kids figure out what the hell it all means?

I can guarantee that a lot of parents would have a problem with that; but you didn't mean that you would just teach something like, say, Benny Hinn's theology did you?

658 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:46:30pm
659 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:46:34pm

God-based religious training (with the exception of Islam) and morality, if nothing else, are an antidote to Nihilism, which is a scourge on society, IMHO.

660 Tigger2005  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:46:53pm

re: #620 natemannq

The problem is that in YOUR science class, you purposely EXCLUDE that which has not been proven to be false.

That VIOLATES laws of science.

Uh, do you think teachers have limitless amounts of time to talk about everything that has not been proven false? Do you REALLY?

Have invisible pink unicorns been proven to be false? No. Guess we better teach about them, then.

661 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:47:15pm

re: #653 basho
You forgot orcs and ents.

662 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:47:20pm

mosty my kids went to jewish schools but one of them went to two different public high schools one was good and the other one a total failure. the main difference was that in one school the staff had the place under control and in the other one they didn't

663 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:47:40pm

re: #649 Inquisitive

Will do!

Thanks!

This job is for a telecommunications specialist and is a deputy manager position. Mr. Songbird is uniquely suited to this job as a Radio Engineer and as a former minister. He knows how to deal with people in crisis situations and knows how to set up communications of all sorts in disaster stricken areas having done this kind of work for the TSunami and other situations.

664 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:47:40pm

So Nate, are you channeling John Adams, or Thomas Jefferson at the moment?

665 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:47:59pm

re: #293 Moe Katz

I would like to know more about what ideas the creationists are actually proposing to put on school curricula regarding the origins of life, the universe, etc. Can anyone throw me a link or two that would bring me up to speed on that?

Something along the lines of, God created you, Bible says so, only my interpretation of the Bible is true...give me your money.

Take away the money/business aspect...and you'd probably see a lot less 'creation' being pushed.

FYI: This is coming from a 'creationist'.

666 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:48:14pm

re: #592 twincitiesgirl

Not sure I'm understanding you--a mandatory class on faith in a public high school classroom?

If so, you can see the problems can't you? If taught at the high school level it would have to be offered as a class in comparative religion and it would have to be voluntary. Even then you may have parents object unless you included the atheist/agnostic viewpoint.

My how we have fallen from the simple Faith-based life our fore-fathers led. We were a blessed nation without these types of insane issues.

Unfortunately, it's been a LACK OF FAITH that has allowed them to arse.

667 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:49:25pm

re: #660 Tigger2005

Have invisible pink unicorns been proven to be false? No.

/Greg Gutfeld is greatly relieved

668 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:49:29pm

Ire: #666 natemannq

Ah, he got the devil post. Now that's telling.

////

669 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:49:30pm

re: #639 Sharmuta

there are one or two examples the vast majority where christian. the issue was not haveing a 'state church' not the oppision to christianity. the aclu is wrong on this all you have to do is read what the founding fathers had to say just look at Washington's thanksgiving address.

670 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:49:50pm

re: #658 ploome hineni
Got it. Just had to pull your chain a little. I don't get these folks at all. Do they think we can teach every version of creation for all religions as science? Or just the one their little sect says is the true revealed word of God? Dipsticks.

671 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:49:58pm

Have you seen the insurance ad (I don't remember the company) that openly states that having faith adds three years to your life?

672 Tigger2005  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:50:04pm

re: #659 rawmuse

God-based religious training (with the exception of Islam) and morality, if nothing else, are an antidote to Nihilism, which is a scourge on society, IMHO.

Well, could we except that Aztec religion too? I'd rather not have my still-beating heart torn from my body. That Thuggee cult of Kali was pretty nasty too.

There are secular philosophies that can serve as an antidote to nihilism as well, so I hope you'll at least give them a mention.

673 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:50:08pm

re: #645 natemannq

And you question my intelligence?

wow

WHAT? I didn't question your intelligence, show me where I was so rude. I simply asked you what you were trying to say, because the sentences you actually wrote made no sense. And they didn't.

sheesh.

674 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:50:12pm

re: #625 jaunte

"that which has not been proven to be false"
Not susceptible to scientific proof. So, not part of science class.

The Bible is an historical document.

675 WayDownSouthInBama  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:50:20pm

re: #134 Killian Bundy

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

When that happens I'll certainly remind myself to stay away from SF,religious police or no religious police.

676 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:50:33pm

I am going to have to leave it here because it is later but I have enjoyed this discussion and I am ready to keep discussing and yes, defend my view...very respectful and that is good.

I will leave this thought: Humility is the acknowledgment that God is the Creator and he created you and that you very existence and you possibility of Grace and Blessings and eternal life are entirely dependant on Him. To indoctrinate students with that idea, not likely nor do I condone it. But to introduce the concept and explain it, yes, I agree with that proposition.

677 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:51:21pm

re: #671 songbird

having a great sex life with your husband or wife will do the same thing. single men esp have shorter lives.

678 RepJ  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:51:26pm

Time for bed. I must prepare to indoctrinate my kid tomorrow, and if I don't get enough sleep, I might screw up. Sleep well, everyone, and be kind to your fellow lizards.

679 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:51:30pm

re: #675 WayDownSouthInBama

When that happens I'll certainly remind myself to stay away from SF,religious police or no religious police.

/when?

680 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:51:43pm

re: #637 RepJ

Yeah, there are some real kooks out there, and they should be put in their place for falsifying evidence, but don't let it ruin your objectivity completely.

It is easy to simply call oneself objective when what one really means is that one doesn't understand and is open to the simplest explanation that is offered.

681 jaunte  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:51:50pm

re: #674 natemannq

Are you a Biblical inerrantist?

682 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:52:25pm

Good night!

I have to get my rest to prepare to indoctrinate my students tomorrow!

/just kidding!

683 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:52:27pm
684 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:52:29pm

re: #674 natemannq

The Bible is an historical document.

The Hebrew and Greek scriptures have some provable history in them. They ARE NOT historical documents as would be defined by science.

Calling them "historical documents" is just plain wrong.

685 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:53:18pm

re: #671 songbird

Have you seen the insurance ad (I don't remember the company) that openly states that having faith adds three years to your life?

Regular sex adds 6.

686 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:53:32pm

re: #675 WayDownSouthInBama
It has already happened, the pervert part that is. Got to zombies website. I will warn you ahead of time it is extremely disturbing and revolting on a graphic scale. This from a man who spent twenty years in the navy and has seen some things better left unsaid.

687 Colonel Panik  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:53:34pm

re: #648 Sharmuta

Oh-kaaay. So- on what Constitutional grounds are you going to deny the Druids, or even the islamists, equal time?

A good start would be a constitutional amendment or an addition to the US Code declaring that Islam is a political as well as religious philosophy that is a threat to the existence of the Constitution of the United States and that imposes restrictions on the spread of Islam in the US and the ability of Islamic believers to hold political and other offices in the government, same as the McCarran Acts did for Communists in the 1950's.

Druidism, or it modern incarnation, "Wicca" as silly as it is, is no threat to the US. Islam is.

688 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:53:41pm

re: #639 Sharmuta

Some people don't like it when I mention this, but it's a fact- many of the Founding Fathers were Deists.

Those Deists have quite the following these days....

Yet another group that didn't follow Biblica Scripture, which has magically been able to endure.

689 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:53:43pm

re: #669 yochanan

Did you read my link?

690 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:54:04pm

re: #672 Tigger2005

Well, could we except that Aztec religion too? I'd rather not have my still-beating heart torn from my body. That Thuggee cult of Kali was pretty nasty too.

There are secular philosophies that can serve as an antidote to nihilism as well, so I hope you'll at least give them a mention.

Hmm, I did not mean to include assassin cults. I hope those heart rippers are not still doing their thing.
As for secular creeds, I get along with most agnostics, but draw the line with the Nihilists. I simply have no room in my head for them.

691 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:54:10pm
692 Racer X  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:54:17pm

Sooooo, we should also teach this version of "religion" in public schools. Because it has not been proven false.

693 J.S.  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:54:24pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

I would also suggest (if you wish to say that the Saudis represent a dystopia) that (as a thought experiment) a scientific dystopia...fiction writers have employed this theme. Thus one could envisage a society ruled strictly by utilitarian "ethics" (with no music, poetry, theatre, dance permitted -- only the pursuit of scientific inquiry/research allowed.) (I once read a philosophical essay which argued that a society could be governed by utilitarian ethics, and under such a system, the society would arrange a "lottery" (each individual upon attaining the age of 25 would be required to draw a ticket...and the "prize" would be (for those who "won" the lottery) would be forced to go to the hospital and donate all vital organs...in other words, mandatory altruism for the "benefit" of society.)

694 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:54:39pm

re: #637 RepJ

The scientific evidence I find interesting deals with the age of the planet and geology. For instance, someone has theorized (can't remember who right now but it was a creationist) that canyons were not formed via rivers alone. Seismic activity can play a bigger role and there are some examples of that in Mt. St. Helens. I saw something on Discovery Channel about Yosemite being a humongous caldera which puts a different perspective on sites like the Grand Canyon. Maybe there is some merit to this theory? Also, evolution seems to take place quickly (galapogas) which could shorten the span of our past.

All I'm saying is that the sciences are too interesting for people to take one side and tell all others to shut up, and quite frankly, no scientist (or person interested in science) should do such a thing. Yeah, there are some real kooks out there, and they should be put in their place for falsifying evidence, but don't let it ruin your objectivity completely.

Are you implying the earth may not be as old as thought and that a young earth would then necessitate a young life form, say no more than several thousand years?

695 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:54:57pm

re: #688 natemannq

Those Deists have quite the following these days....

Yet another group that didn't follow Biblica Scripture, which has magically been able to endure.

And yet- they wrote the Declaration of Independence and Constitution.

696 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:54:58pm

re: #674 natemannq

The Bible is an historical document.

There are parts of the bible that have been proven by archeology (science) to be true. Parts will never be able to be proven true (or false) such as the book of Genesis. This is where a persons FAITH comes into play. However, faith is a personal thing and should not be dictated or overseen by the state.

697 mich-again  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:55:05pm

Did evolution happen or not is no longer a valid question. But how life on Earth came about in the first place is still not known.

698 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:55:18pm
699 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:55:36pm

re: #683 ploome hineni
Well, back in the olden days, 60s/70s we had US history and we learned all that good stuff. Of course now those text books would be banned and burned as heretical.

700 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:55:44pm

re: #646 Tigger2005

That was then. You can't FORCE it to be that way again. You can, through your individual efforts and through your church, try to persuade people to turn back to God and re-embrace Judeo/Christian values. But I think you'd do well to do so in a way that doesn't alienate non-believers who are quite patriotic, thank you, and generally follow Judeo/Christian values because they think they're just common sense.

And who gave us that common sense of which you speak?

701 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:55:45pm

re: #679 Killian Bundy

i recently read a political novel were in it the name of san fran was changed to NEW FALUGAH and they in fact did have religious police they just weren't christian. we generally haven't had religous police since the puritians. although we have had more than our share of prudes some of whom were commies.

702 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:55:50pm

re: #606 Kulhwch

A Fractal Pantheist might argue the point, but I won't.

703 sparrowlake  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:56:31pm

re: #620 natemannq

The problem is that in YOUR science class, you purposely EXCLUDE that which has not been proven to be false.
That VIOLATES laws of science.

Unless your child happens to be a genius, cluttering your child's science class with a bunch of unproven theories will surely confuse him/her and severely hamper their ability to learn proven, tried and tested science.

704 Kenneth  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:57:06pm

re: #658 ploome hineni

faith based on the same 'thing' as delusion

No it is not. My late mother-in-law was a woman of deep faith all her life. In her later years she developed Alzhiemers, which included delusions. Yet it was her faith which helped her keep her focus and sanity for as long as she could. She continued to go to church every Sunday. When she could no longer remember the names of her friends & grandchildren, sho could still sing the hymns. Faith for her was the antithesis of the encroaching delusions.

705 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:57:13pm

re: #666 natemannq

My how we have fallen from the simple Faith-based life our fore-fathers led. We were a blessed nation without these types of insane issues.

Unfortunately, it's been a LACK OF FAITH that has allowed them to arse.

My black friends would agree. Those days ruled.

/Had to be said

706 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:57:40pm

re: #684 Walter L. Newton

The Hebrew and Greek scriptures have some provable history in them. They ARE NOT historical documents as would be defined by science.

Calling them "historical documents" is just plain wrong.

It's centuries of oral history written down long after the fact.

/it may be historically inaccurate, but it's not an elaborate work of fiction

707 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:57:42pm

re: #648 Sharmuta

Oh-kaaay. So- on what Constitutional grounds are you going to deny the Druids, or even the islamists, equal time?

It's not denying them time that's the problem (they stand up for themselves quite sufficiently). It's all of the Christians who FAIL to stand up for their beliefs (Constitutionally speaking) because doubt has crept up on faith.

708 yochanan  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:58:35pm

re: #693 J.S.

I would also suggest (if you wish to say that the Saudis represent a dystopia) that (as a thought experiment) a scientific dystopia...fiction writers have employed this theme. Thus one could envisage a society ruled strictly by utilitarian "ethics" (with no music, poetry, theatre, dance permitted -- only the pursuit of scientific inquiry/research allowed.) (I once read a philosophical essay which argued that a society could be governed by utilitarian ethics, and under such a system, the society would arrange a "lottery" (each individual upon attaining the age of 25 would be required to draw a ticket...and the "prize" would be (for those who "won" the lottery) would be forced to go to the hospital and donate all vital organs...in other words, mandatory altruism for the "benefit" of society.)


THE CHI COMS are doing that right now in their prisons. they have a organ harvesting program were they use the 'donated' organs of prisoners they have killed.

709 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:58:43pm
710 mich-again  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:58:43pm

re: #696 Outrider

However, faith is a personal thing and should not be dictated or overseen by the state.

Not true. If a "faith" called for human sacrifice there would good reason for the State to oversee it.

711 Jimmah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:58:56pm
“I’ll watch the Discovery Channel and say ‘Ooh, that’s interesting,’ ” he said. “But there’s a difference between thinking something is interesting and believing it.”

This reminds me of the cognitive dissonance of a Pakistani scientist who told me that while he believed in evolution as science, he disbelieved it when it came to religion. But then, he also tried to persuade me that this was real.

712 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:59:16pm

re: #708 yochanan
True dat. Having the Olympics there was absurd.

713 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:59:21pm

re: #691 ploome hineni

nu

how are you doing?

/24 hour rule over?

Yes. Over all, I feel that the peppermint has relieved calmed them down a lot. Although, tonight, I didn't put on the "high top control" thingys I have been wearing at the theatre.

After getting the place ready for tonight's performance, I spent 2 1/2 really painful hours in the tech booth. I even had to go out to the lobby during act two and lie flat out on a fainting couch we have and massage the damn intestines back down.

I did eat a salad after the physical labor and before curtain. Eating always gets them going a bit.

I have my surgery consult in the morning. We'll see from there how long they schedule out the day surgery. I'd be ok with them wheeling me right into the operating room tomorrow, but with this managed care stuff, they will probably triage my and schedule me to wait until just before I strangulate. LOL.

714 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:59:33pm

re: #701 yochanan

i recently read a political novel were in it the name of san fran was changed to NEW FALUGAH and they in fact did have religious police they just weren't christian. we generally haven't had religous police since the puritians. although we have had more than our share of prudes some of whom were commies.

Oh, that is a great intro to one of my fast becoming top 30 songs!
Lords of Salem - Rob Zombie.
*Warning: horrifically violent*

/crappy music...it's my vice of choice.

715 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:59:43pm

re: #707 natemannq

And you think it's the government's job to stand up for Christians who can't or won't stand up for themselves or their faith? Do you think it's the government's job to protect faiths from creeping doubts?

716 jcm  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:59:49pm

Evening.....

Moonbats on the loose in Denver.

Priceless!

717 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:59:55pm

re: #668 Thanos

I

Ah, he got the devil post. Now that's telling.

////

perhaps you should look at what the post is about if you're going for irony.

718 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:59:58pm

re: #710 mich-again

Not true. If a "faith" called for human sacrifice there would good reason for the State to oversee it.

For the Aztecs, that was the case.

719 Inquisitive  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:00:20pm

re: #636 pingjockey

It is not the goddamn nanny states business to instill moral values of its choosing on its citizens.


Please read I said Elective Class
How is having a high school elective class in theology being a nanny state.....and the schools/teachers are already having to teach some children moral values, and even good hygene, because some parents do not do so. They can teach sex education as required subject but not have an elective class in theology. OKAY !

720 jcm  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:01:06pm

re: #712 pingjockey

True dat. Having the Olympics there was absurd.

NBC sucking ChiCom *&%$ was obscene.

721 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:01:11pm

re: #707 natemannq

It's not denying them time that's the problem (they stand up for themselves quite sufficiently). It's all of the Christians who FAIL to stand up for their beliefs (Constitutionally speaking) because doubt has crept up on faith.

This is not a question of failing to stand up for certain beliefs. There is a time and a place for everything. Science class in a public school is not the place to teach faith based curricula. I would argue that even instructing it in lieu of science in a private or home school would severely handicap the student in any future studies.

722 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:01:19pm

re: #683 ploome hineni

wish they would keep some subject to instill some national pride and love for country and duty

I watched some of the Olympics and was quite surprised and gratified to notice the unabashed pride most of them had in being able to represent the United States of America.

Kobe Bryant schools NBC announcer on patriotism

723 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:01:21pm

re: #716 jcm

Evening.....

Moonbats on the loose in Denver.

Priceless!

/without hotel rooms, mind you, without hotel rooms!

724 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:01:21pm
Evolution is telling you that you’re like an animal,” Bryce agreed. “That’s why people stand strong with Christianity, because it teaches people to lead a good life and not do wrong.”

Just because we are not much different from animals (and certainly no "higher" than them when it boils down to it) does not mean we are not unique from them.

Good morning, Reptilia!

725 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:01:23pm

re: #666 natemannq

My how we have fallen from the simple Faith-based life our fore-fathers led. We were a blessed nation without these types of insane issues.

You haven't studied much American history if that is what you think.

726 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:01:44pm

re: #684 Walter L. Newton

The Hebrew and Greek scriptures have some provable history in them. They ARE NOT historical documents as would be defined by science.

Calling them "historical documents" is just plain wrong.

are you an atheist?

727 sparrowlake  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:01:55pm

re: #704 Kenneth

No it is not. My late mother-in-law was a woman of deep faith all her life. In her later years she developed Alzhiemers, which included delusions. Yet it was her faith which helped her keep her focus and sanity for as long as she could. She continued to go to church every Sunday. When she could no longer remember the names of her friends & grandchildren, sho could still sing the hymns. Faith for her was the antithesis of the encroaching delusions.

Long term memories and music are often the last things to go in Alzheimer patients.

728 WayDownSouthInBama  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:02:05pm

re: #686 pingjockey
I'll just take your word for this one.

729 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:02:09pm

re: #706 Killian Bundy

It's centuries of oral history written down long after the fact.

/it may be historically inaccurate, but it's not an elaborate work of fiction

First of all, I never said it was a work of fiction. It contains somes provable history, anthropological stories, purely religious text (which belief in is faith based), borrowed material from other sources and so on. In the most, you could call it religious history.

730 jcm  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:02:22pm

re: #723 Killian Bundy

/without hotel rooms, mind you, without hotel rooms!

"Our rights are based on worldwide oppression!" Says moonbat wearing kaffeyieh.

731 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:02:33pm

re: #713 Walter L. Newton

thinking of you. you'll be feeling better soon.

732 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:03:03pm

re: #726 natemannq

are you an atheist?

Yes. Next question?

733 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:03:04pm

re: #719 Inquisitive
Oops, didn't see elective. As for sex ed, it bugs the hell out of me to see it in jr. high. We didn't get that in depth until we were sophomores. Which made sense cause we were all in drivers ed too.

734 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:03:09pm

re: #684 Walter L. Newton

"Historical document" is a rather vague term. Science textbook it certainly is not, but an insight into the cultures and habits of the Canaanites/Judeans of the time, definitely.

735 paint-right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:03:15pm

re: #627 yochanan

global warming isn't science either it is politics
just as i.d isn't science either it is theology

I.D. is politics, not theology. That is what is going on in the attempt to get it into the classroom.

It is politics in sheep's clothing.

I do not want the concept of a creator taught grudgingly by science teachers nor incompetently by third grade teachers.

And how would it be uniformly taught using what textbooks?

ID is an agenda which is also, perhaps unwittingly, a trojan horse for Islamism.

Any person with a brain wonders how it all began. No one will be shortchanged by leaving ID out of the classroom.

736 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:03:34pm

re: #726 natemannq

are you an atheist?

And you didn't answer my inquery.

737 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:03:36pm
738 twincitiesgirl  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:03:47pm

re: #666 natemannq

What you say may be true, but you have to deal with reality, not how things were. Would you want your kids forced to listen to some jerk from CAIR or the Muslim Brotherhood trying to indoctrinate your kids at school--I wouldn't.

739 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:03:49pm

re: #705 basho

My black friends would agree. Those days ruled.

/Had to be said

classless and completely out of context.

740 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:04:31pm

re: #715 Sharmuta

And you think it's the government's job to stand up for Christians who can't or won't stand up for themselves or their faith? Do you think it's the government's job to protect faiths from creeping doubts?

no

741 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:04:33pm

re: #736 Walter L. Newton

And you didn't answer my inquery.

He's good at that.

742 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:04:35pm

re: #732 Walter L. Newton

Yes. Next question?

Are you a Pisces?

743 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:04:47pm

re: #728 WayDownSouthInBama
It was terrible. In public, etc... I think San Fran is the new Sodom.

744 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:04:51pm

re: #710 mich-again

Not true. If a "faith" called for human sacrifice there would good reason for the State to oversee it.

Yeah----I will concede that point. But, that would involve the judicial system as a violation of secular laws would have occurred.

745 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:04:58pm

re: #734 laZardo

"Historical document" is a rather vague term. Science textbook it certainly is not, but an insight into the cultures and habits of the Canaanites/Judeans of the time, definitely.

Agreed. But it is not an historical document. A religious history, a book of folktales mixed with actual events, elements borrowed from works older than itself and so on.

746 realwest  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:05:21pm

Sorry y'all had to step away for a minute. Have I missed anything? I mean other than the same old, same old arguments?
Relligion should not be taught in Public or Taxpayer assisted schools. Whether as an elective course or a required course or as part of a science course.

I simply DON'T understand the resistance to that proposition. I truly don't.

747 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:05:35pm

I haven't read all the comments yet, but have seen more than a few comments that ask "Why not just flunk those who refuse to answer the questions or study the material"? A reasonable, logical, and fair solution, one that would certainly work in a perfect world.

Yet in this world when academic standards run contrary to dogma, the false cry of religious oppression is sounded, and frivolous lawsuits are filed.

748 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:05:50pm

re: #742 rawmuse

Are you a Pisces?

Capricorn. Next question?

749 jcm  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:05:54pm

re: #742 rawmuse

Are you a Pisces?

I prefer bitter and clingy,

750 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:06:10pm

re: #725 Naso Tang

You haven't studied much American history if that is what you think.

I bow to your greatness oh condescending one.

Please educate us.

751 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:06:24pm

re: #746 realwest

Sorry y'all had to step away for a minute. Have I missed anything? I mean other than the same old, same old arguments?
Relligion should not be taught in Public or Taxpayer assisted schools. Whether as an elective course or a required course or as part of a science course.

I simply DON'T understand the resistance to that proposition. I truly don't.

Yea, I may be on the edge of getting slammed here tonight.

752 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:06:36pm

re: #748 Walter L. Newton

Capricorn. Next question?

Where were you on Nov. 22, 1963?

753 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:06:47pm

re: #577 So?

After all is said and done on the evolutionary ladder, I have one simple question:

Can you define what the mind is?

Mind? The reflection of consciousness off of our nervous system.

754 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:07:05pm

re: #740 natemannq

Okay- then on what Constitutional grounds are you going to deny the Druids, or even the islamists, equal time?

755 realwest  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:07:23pm

re: #751 Walter L. Newton Hey Walter - slammed as in drunk or slammed by someone who doesn't like the position(s) you take on the subject matter of this thread?

756 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:00pm

re: #748 Walter L. Newton
Is that your hat?

757 Kenneth  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:06pm

re: #727 sparrowlake

Yes, that's true. The point I'm trying to make is that the psychiatric symptom called "delusions" originate in a very different way than faith does. More importantly, the effect of delusions on the individual is also very different than the effects of faith. Delusions are pathological and often bring harm to a person. Faith almost always increases a person's ability to function and persevere in difficult circumstances.

758 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:13pm

re: #752 rawmuse

Where were you on Nov. 22, 1963?

No. Dec. 24th, 1952. Since I post under my real name, and enough info on me is available on Google, there aren't many questions I won't answer.

759 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:14pm

re: #738 twincitiesgirl

What you say may be true, but you have to deal with reality, not how things were. Would you want your kids forced to listen to some jerk from CAIR or the Muslim Brotherhood trying to indoctrinate your kids at school--I wouldn't.

Our kids already ARE being forced to listen to CAIR in schools (Houston as a recent example) out of political correctness, which is nothing more than not standing on principle and conviction of what you believe in.

760 LotharBot  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:20pm

re: #698 ploome hineni

the Bible is an historical document

True in two ways:

1) the Bible is historically significant. One cannot seriously study Western history over the last 2000 years without a decent knowledge of the Bible, because it had such significant impact on that history. (The same is true of the Koran and Middle Eastern history, and even the book of Mormon and Utah history, though not the book of Mormon and pre-colonial American history.) Regardless of the book's VALIDITY, its INFLUENCE is historically important.

2) the Bible records historical events. Its accuracy and perspective may be questioned, of course; one need not accept the Bible's description of why Assyria failed to conquer Judah during Hezekiah/Sennacherib's reigns to recognize that it does provide a record of that historical event. (Here, the book's VALIDITY is at least partly in question. The Bible and Koran are both historically interesting, though you can take or leave the theology implied; the book of Mormon fails on this front.)

761 Tigger2005  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:30pm

natemannq, I have to say, if you defend your comment that science classes should teach about everything that "hasn't been proven false" I'll be really disappointed. A big person can admit when he or she is wrong...I do it all the time. And you have to admit this is just a completely unworkable idea. There is really nothing that can be 100% proven to be false, just as nothing can be 100% proven to be true. We can only say that something is "very probably true." We can also say it is very probable that invisible pink unicorns don't exist, but we can't PROVE it. But do you really want science teachers to waste time discussing invisible pink unicorns, and djinns, and astrology?

762 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:40pm

re: #742 rawmuse

Are you a Pisces?

I am. What's the prize?

763 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:41pm

re: #746 realwest

I guess some people are afraid of being taught things that show (to them anyway) that the value of human life is relative, that they are here due to the extremely, infinitesimally small chance of the binding of hydrocarbons combined with the right mixture of heat and moisture, and that morality is little more than an evolved version of the "herding instinct" that bonds animal groups together.

/deep breath, morning HURRRRRGH mentality

764 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:49pm

And I am back. Quick question. Is the BBQ fired up yet?

/just saying, cause my nose is sniffing something out there.

765 Zimriel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:08:50pm

re: #603 yochanan

there was no"Judeo" in euro Judeo-Christian values. it simply wasn't there at all. AMERICA is different.

This is certainly true for Catholics (and Orthodox); we have our own tradition and don't bother with Judaism very much. Where I've studied Judaism it has been because, I personally find it interesting, and I have relatives in Israel; but as a route to salvation, no offence meant, but I don't defer to the rabbis. (Likewise I wouldn't expect the Jews reading this thread to spend a whole lot of time on what our Pope thinks, unless - again - they just happen to find it interesting and/or have Catholic relatives.)

I'd say the "Judaeo-" in the term "Judaeo-Christian" started among German Protestants. Protestantism in casting off the Church tradition still requires a church jurisprudence. Since it can't be extracted from the Church anymore, by definition (although there has been a recent shift in Protestantism to seek out "Protestant saints" in antiquity, like Tertullian) - Protestants very early on turned to Biblical scholarship and dialogues with rabbis.

Which is, I suspect, why some of the best scholarship on early Judaism (for instance on the Dead Sea Scrolls), Jews themselves excepted, has been done by mostly-German Protestants...

766 J.S.  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:09:13pm

re: #708 yochanan

So I've heard (there was an article about the Chinese and the Olympic games and whether or not (if we actually knew all of what's going on over there) if we'd be all that "happy" about china's opportunistic use of the Olympics to pull off a propaganda coup...(also heard, from CNN, that one of the other nations in the world which actually sells organs -- it's Iran...)

767 Archimedes  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:09:43pm

re: #752 rawmuse

Where were you on Nov. 22, 1963?

Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist party?

768 Spar Kling  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:09:49pm

re: #29 flynmudd

Explain how the eye evolved.

Easy. The "eyes" in plants such as potatoes and knots in long-extinct trees developed light sensitivity (it happens all the time--my skin is light sensitive, for example) which then became hollowed and developed lenses over them.

To move around and see better, potatoes then developed specialized rhizomes that evolved into tails and limbs that over millions and millions of years evolved bones and musculature. DNA evidence shows us to be closely related to potatoes. There are many transitional forms between potatoes and humans including the aarvark.

Anyone who questions this theory is anti-science and believes in miracles.

Scientists only believe in tangible, measurable things. For example, scientists do not believe in honesty or kindness because these are intangible psycho-moral constructs that cannot be objectively measured.

In constrast, potatoes are highly tangible evidence and taste good when cooked and served with gravy.

- sk

769 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:09:55pm

re: #756 pingjockey

Is that your hat?

No, picture of me as Mr. Paravacinni in Agatha Christies' "The Mousetrap." It came from a costumer. About 8 years old and about 200 pounds heavier.

770 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:10:05pm

re: #750 natemannq

I bow to your greatness oh condescending one.

Please educate us.

Pfffffttttttt- pot, meet kettle.

771 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:10:16pm

re: #750 natemannq

I bow to your greatness oh condescending one.

Please educate us.

Your style of writing is somewhat interesting and distinctive. Have you posted on here under another nic in the past?

772 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:10:36pm

re: #760 LotharBot


The Bible and Koran are both historically interesting, though you can take or leave the theology implied; the book of Mormon fails on this front.)

The Obligatory: "How does 'the book of Mormon' fail on this front?

/as a Mormon I am curious...

773 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:11:05pm

re: #758 Walter L. Newton

No. Dec. 24th, 1952. Since I post under my real name, and enough info on me is available on Google, there aren't many questions I won't answer.


Walter I believe he was asking if you were on the grassy knoll.

774 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:11:11pm
775 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:11:29pm

re: #410 wright1

God is not religion.

A religion is a specific thing, and there are many to chose from.

I do not think that God per se should be a taboo subject in a public school, as long as God is spoken of in general terms.

You can hardly teach history without mentioning religion & God in fact.

And perhaps some of the canceling of selfishness and narcissism could come from such a touching on the subject.

Anyway, I canceled out your down ding.

Good night all.

776 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:11:35pm

Hey, no one asked me, but I believe in a big, fearsome, wrathful, God, that shall demand that I account for my gift of life on my day of reckoning. And I am really hoping that, as regards the commandment for not working on the Sabbath, that He goes easy on that one, or else I am in a world of shit. Everything else, I am think I am OK. Except I spend too much time on these threads instead of working to help feed and clothe Haitian orphans.

I dunno, it works for me. To each their own.

777 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:11:42pm

re: #755 realwest

Hey Walter - slammed as in drunk or slammed by someone who doesn't like the position(s) you take on the subject matter of this thread?

My stand on issues. I haven't had a drink in over 2 years.

778 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:11:50pm

re: #754 Sharmuta

Okay- then on what Constitutional grounds are you going to deny the Druids, or even the islamists, equal time?

Simple: The part that says Christians rule all other religions drool.

/That's his/her entire argument

779 Cartman  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:11:54pm

re: #716 jcm

Evening.....

Moonbats on the loose in Denver.

Priceless!

Freshly loosed from the rubber rooms.

780 jcm  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:11:56pm

Following the general tenor of the thread.

The Bible is primary a SPIRITUAL text, it was never intended and should not read as a historical text. It can be placed in historical context, but that is secondary to it's purpose as a spiritual guide. Historical accuracy is secondary to the spiritual truths.

In an ideal world in would like the Bible to be taught in schools and creationism, not as science but as comparative religion. HOWEVER the current push by the Disco Institute and the Wedge strategy is not only BAD SCIENCE, it is BAD FAITH. Fraught with dangers and unintended consequences.

781 realwest  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:11:58pm

re: #763 laZardo

I guess some people are afraid of being taught things that show (to them anyway) that the value of human life is relative


Relative to what?

782 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:12:00pm

re: #769 Walter L. Newton
Well, it is a nice hat.

783 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:12:09pm
Evolution is telling you that you’re like an animal,” Bryce agreed. “That’s why people stand strong with Christianity, because it teaches people to lead a good life and not do wrong.


The logical error here is the notion that if we are animals, we cannot behave morally, don't need to behave morally, and shouldn't even bother with morality, because for animals, there is no right and wrong.

Most people who believe in evolution have no wish to teach such a pernicious and immoral doctrine. Humans are animal, fine. But we're different from the other animals. For us, morality is essential to survival. We cannot live as solitary wild animals, without the society of other humans. Without morality, society collapses.

Without truth, society becomes dangerously rigid. That's why those of us who believe in evolution persist in saying so. It's not a matter of faith, and it's not a matter of tearing down anyone else's faith. It's a matter of elementary fairness. Galileo had a right to teach that the earth went around the sun. And we have a right to teach that the origin of the many species seen today lies in a branching out from simple beginnings.

784 Killer Tomato  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:12:34pm

re: #639 Sharmuta

Some people don't like it when I mention this, but it's a fact- many of the Founding Fathers were Deists.

That was an interesting article - thanks.

I've always said they were Theists, based on the Oxford definitions:

deism
• noun: belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe.
theism
• noun: belief in the existence of a god or gods, specifically of a creator who intervenes in the universe.


Asking for the blessings of a divine Providence, etc., etc., would make no sense if one believed that the supreme being wouldn't intervene, which is why I've always used the term Theists.

785 jcm  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:12:39pm

re: #758 Walter L. Newton

No. Dec. 24th, 1952. Since I post under my real name, and enough info on me is available on Google, there aren't many questions I won't answer.

SSN? I've got my eye on a new car...
/ ;-P

786 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:13:01pm

re: #774 ploome hineni

Here?

787 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:13:23pm

re: #773 Typicalwhitey

Walter I believe he was asking if you were on the grassy knoll.

I missed the reference. And that's should be hard for me to miss, since I lived in Dallas from 1974-1982 and was good friends with the guy that ran the museum dedicated to the shooting.

788 Kenneth  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:14:02pm

re: #760 LotharBot

Muslims deny the Koran has a "history". For them, the book exists today as it was revealed to Mohamad. This is, of course, false. Some scholars have researched the "historicism" of the Koran, but it remains a forbidden topic to Muslims.

789 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:14:06pm

just heard the beginning speaker line up:
jimmy carter
teddy kennedy
nancy pelosi


how boring. losers.
has beens,
much more excitement on the streets.

790 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:14:15pm

re: #787 Walter L. Newton

Just funnin' ya.
But, you knew that. :)

791 jaunte  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:14:25pm

re: #780 jcm

"...the current push by the Disco Institute and the Wedge strategy is not only BAD SCIENCE, it is BAD FAITH. Fraught with dangers and unintended consequences."

Many updings. The Wedge aims to force choices on several issues that will cause a lot of religious conflict.

792 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:14:39pm

re: #785 jcm

SSN? I've got my eye on a new car...
/ ;-P

123-456-7890. Knock yourself out :)

793 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:15:11pm

re: #750 natemannq

I bow to your greatness oh condescending one.

Please educate us.


Who is this us of whom you speak?

794 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:15:12pm

re: #787 Walter L. Newton

So what do you think of Newtons theory Walter?

/;)

795 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:15:16pm

re: #781 realwest

Depends. From our POV, some cultures do not place nearly as much value on the lives of women as Americans do. From their POV, they are simply going by the traditions that their culture dictates.

The "clash of civilizations" is an integral part of human history, of course. It's reasonable to expect contrasting cultures to come into conflict as their influence expands to cross each other's bounds.

796 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:15:22pm

re: #729 Walter L. Newton

you could call it religious history.

Well, there's common ground.

/much different from the whacked out, time incoherent, rant of blood lust and misogyny called the Koran

797 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:15:28pm

re: #782 pingjockey

Well, it is a nice hat.

And that a nice... ah... well... arrow through a omega?

798 Inquisitive  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:15:36pm

re: #742 rawmuse

Are you a Pisces?


Yes....oh sorry..that was for Walter L. Newton

799 ggt  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:15:49pm

Good Evening Lizards! It wasn't too bad in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland today, the sun was out, no rain.

So, If I don't like certain questions on the IRS form can I just say, I don't believe? Like on the line that says "income -deductions =" I'll put zero and say I don't believe in taxes.

How are you-all and what are we talking about tonite?

800 So?  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:16:00pm

re: #753 Bobibutu

Mind? The reflection of consciousness off of our nervous system.

What is consciousness?

801 realwest  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:16:03pm

re: #777 Walter L. Newton Ah, well then let me congratulate you on your two years + of sobriety. Approaching 5 years, myself.
But what about your stand on this is going to get you slammed? Do you think religion should be taught in public or taxpayer assisted schools either as an elective or as part of a science class?

802 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:16:22pm

Jumping next door to the new thread!

803 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:16:34pm

re: #794 Typicalwhitey

So what do you think of Newtons theory Walter?

/;)

Nice. I've never heard that one before. Let me write that down in my joke file. Maybe it will appear in my next play. :)

/

804 jcm  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:16:48pm

re: #792 Walter L. Newton

123-456-7890. Knock yourself out :)

COOOL!
re: #791 jaunte

"...the current push by the Disco Institute and the Wedge strategy is not only BAD SCIENCE, it is BAD FAITH. Fraught with dangers and unintended consequences."

Many updings. The Wedge aims to force choices on several issues that will cause a lot of religious conflict.

The Wedge Document was the convincer for me.
It is clearly not about the spread of the Gospel, but about political power.

805 So?  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:17:17pm

re: #593 Syrah

The mind is the soul.

WRONG

806 Kenneth  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:17:22pm

re: #789 nyc redneck


oh great, their leading off with Dhimmy, Tippy & Blinky. Are they trying to induce comas in the delagates so the don't start a fight over the Obamessiah & the Hildabeast?

807 twincitiesgirl  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:17:29pm

re: #779 Cartman

ah humor--love it! Is the guy in the orange shirt available?

/cause I know someone I'd set him up with

808 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:17:40pm

re: #800 So?

What is consciousness?

Awareness of self.

809 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:17:49pm

re: #803 Walter L. Newton

Oh sorry.
I was just trying to cheer you up.
I have been reading about your hernia and thought you could use a laugh.
Shoulda known you had heard that one before ;)

810 pingjockey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:17:55pm

re: #797 Walter L. Newton
Sonar technician rating badge. My picture of me on my Harley wouldn't load! (Or a telephone operator on an Indian reservation as my Colville tribal buddy called it!)

811 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:18:06pm

re: #801 realwest

Ah, well then let me congratulate you on your two years + of sobriety. Approaching 5 years, myself.
But what about your stand on this is going to get you slammed? Do you think religion should be taught in public or taxpayer assisted schools either as an elective or as part of a science class?

It was my comment that the Hebrew and Greek scriptures are not a history book. A book of religious history yes, history, no. Some verifiable history, yes.

812 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:18:52pm
813 So?  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:18:55pm

re: #808 Bobibutu

Awareness of self.

...and how does an evolved nervous system reflect or vibrate itself into knowingness?

814 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:19:07pm

re: #806 Kenneth

oh great, their leading off with Dhimmy, Tippy & Blinky. Are they trying to induce comas in the delagates so the don't start a fight over the Obamessiah & the Hildabeast?

no one will be listening to these people. lol

815 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:19:12pm

re: #809 Typicalwhitey

Oh sorry.
I was just trying to cheer you up.
I have been reading about your hernia and thought you could use a laugh.
Shoulda known you had heard that one before ;)

You did, that's why I penned a humorous reply.

816 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:19:28pm

re: #783 lostlakehiker

The logical error here is the notion that if we are animals, we cannot behave morally, don't need to behave morally, and shouldn't even bother with morality, because for animals, there is no right and wrong.

Most people who believe in evolution have no wish to teach such a pernicious and immoral doctrine. Humans are animal, fine. But we're different from the other animals. For us, morality is essential to survival. We cannot live as solitary wild animals, without the society of other humans. Without morality, society collapses.

That's why there are such things as packs, herds, schools, flocks, etc. Humans have tribes, societies, etc.

Without truth, society becomes dangerously rigid. That's why those of us who believe in evolution persist in saying so. It's not a matter of faith, and it's not a matter of tearing down anyone else's faith. It's a matter of elementary fairness. Galileo had a right to teach that the earth went around the sun. And we have a right to teach that the origin of the many species seen today lies in a branching out from simple beginnings.

Exactly. It makes us no higher than animals but at the same time, it shows that we are a unique species. As we had no claws, scales or poison glands to attack with, humans developed an ability unique to their defense - the ability to innovate and invent ways to defend their groups from outsiders...regardless of species.

817 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:19:53pm

re: #805 So?

Explain.

818 realwest  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:19:53pm

re: #789 nyc redneck
Can't miss TV! LOL!
Seriously is that the order of the speakers tomorrow night?

819 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:20:12pm

re: #815 Walter L. Newton

You are funny.
Do you own the playhouse in Colorado that you perform in?

820 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:21:12pm

re: #805 So?

WRONG

In the original Hebrew, the word is nephesh, which mean "animal" or "breath."

It was later Greek infulence that started to euqate nephesh with the concept of a soul.

In either case, it had NOTHING to do with mind.

821 J.S.  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:21:31pm

re: #796 Killian Bundy

You're not in Canada, are you? Write stuff like that and you'll wind up at some Tribunal...(lol)...

822 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:21:40pm

re: #817 Syrah

Explain.

Syrah, see my 820.

823 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:21:52pm

re: #818 realwest

Can't miss TV! LOL!
Seriously is that the order of the speakers tomorrow night?

that's what i heard on he radio. wabc ny
shocking how this is the lead of crew.

824 sparrowlake  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:21:58pm

re: #757 Kenneth

Faith almost always increases a person's ability to function and persevere in difficult circumstances.

Agreed. Faith is a very good coping mechanism, which helps people to function when faced with serious illness, death and other overwhelming events.
That is why many atheists and agnostics undergo "deathbed conversions".
Maybe I will too.

825 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:22:09pm

re: #812 ploome hineni

Here, though the focus in the Bible is more on the Israelites. I should have said that it shows insight into the cultures of people living in the Canaan area, not so much the Canaanites specifically.

re: #816 laZardo

PIMF, last paragraph is not part of the quote.

826 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:23:01pm

re: #811 Walter L. Newton

It was my comment that the Hebrew and Greek scriptures are not a history book. A book of religious history yes, history, no. Some verifiable history, yes.

The word History has more definitions than the word Theory.

Which meaning is used defines where the user is coming from, and therefore the word itself is never the argument.

827 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:24:22pm

re: #824 sparrowlake


That is why many atheists and agnostics undergo "deathbed conversions".

/You work in a hospice perhaps?

828 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:24:25pm

Land of Canaan

/because lesbians rock!

829 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:25:32pm

# 760 LotharBot:
Any response to my 772?

Bueller.......Bueller........Bueller........

830 Spar Kling  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:25:42pm

re: #49 sattv4u2

This goes to a larger issue of personal responsibility and what an educators job is.

Yes, the State should determine what children should be taught, not the parents who know nothing. The parents are simply agents of the State and must conform to State-mandated education (and hopefully nutritional) standards.

After all, humans are simply a biological herd of advanced monkeys that need to be managed by an intellectual elite appointed by the State, from which all rights are granted.

The fact that State-controlled education in the U.S. is a spectacular success is irrefutable evidence of this mandate. Fringe groups such as homeschoolers need to be rounded up and re-educated.

You're onto a very forward-thinking line of reasoning!

831 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:26:34pm

re: #824 sparrowlake

I have this gut feeling that I'll go back to Christianity sometime around my middle age as many of us young religion-buckers tend to do. Otherwise I seem content to dissipate into oblivion.

832 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:27:07pm

re: #822 Walter L. Newton

Syrah, see my 820.

I don't see the metaphysical conflict.

Thanks for the response. I will think on it.

833 lostlakehiker  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:28:24pm

re: #82 Padre

I am surprised by the limited support from many of you so-called Lizards. You who spit on others' faith while claiming to hold your own, and at the same time denouncing one for holding steadfast with his.

Good on this student for sticking to his beliefs. Bad on him for not answering the exam question.

The student was never asked to profess a belief in evolution. Only to show that he knew what the talking points were. A course in history or economics could legitimately ask what arguments Marx made for communism, and a Lizard would have no grounds for complaining that he was being forced to disavow a belief in the merits of capitalism.

834 So?  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:28:36pm

re: #817 Syrah

Explain.

Scientists can explain how the great slime of eons past evolved over billions of years to form single celled organisms that went on to evolve to who we are today. However not one scientist can explain how the hardware that evolved, that is, our brain and nervous system etc. is able to create what we call mind and/or self-awareness. Therein lies a conundrum.

835 LotharBot  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:28:49pm

re: #772 Oh no...Sand People!

The Obligatory: "How does 'the book of Mormon' fail on this front?

/as a Mormon I am curious...

It claims to record historical events that took place in the Americas, happening to specific people groups in specific cities and so on. Those events did not take place, nor did the cities exist, nor did the people groups. You can find most Biblical and Koranic(?) cities on google maps, but you're screwed if you want to find Zarahemla or Bountiful.

For an admittedly biased religious source, view The Bible vs the Book of Mormon.

(For the record, I had a very good Mormon friend who lived with me for a while, and I greatly respect him. I also greatly respect many things the Mormon church has done, and many common Mormon beliefs. But the book of Mormon is very, very NOT historically valid.)

836 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:31:31pm

re: #813 So?

...and how does an evolved nervous system reflect or vibrate itself into knowingness?

First we establish ourselves in Being 24/7. Then perform action from that state - which is knowingness. An evolved nervous system/being is there.

How to get there? Purify the nervous system. By whatever system rings your bell. I prefer meditation.

837 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:33:19pm
838 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:34:11pm

re: #834 So?

Read the book ''I am a strange loop.''

839 LotharBot  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:34:22pm

re: #829 Oh no...Sand People!

# 760 LotharBot:
Any response to my 772?

Bueller.......Bueller........Bueller.... ....

15 minutes between your inquiry and this? Come on...

840 mobaby  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:35:12pm

re: #544 realwest

The only problem with what you said:

is that it assumes two things which I don't think are true: a) atheists and agnostics have no morals or moral code and are just out to have a good time and b) those who follow the literal word of the Bible regarding creation do have those moral or a moral code which says to "put off having a good time" until Judgement Day.
In either event I disagree with you. Some people I've known have been strongly Atheistic and extremely moral folks and some of the people I've known who consider themselves "good people of faith" don't live their lives that way at all. And that, btw, doesn't just apply to creationsists, it applies to other Christians and to Jews alike.

Realwest,
I never said atheists or agnostics are immoral. My argument is that the BIG problem with your beliefs is that is that it is your choice to be moral, there is NOTHING (literally) on which to base your beliefs, except your own existential choice. Some may choose differently and you have NOTHING (literally) to say they are wrong. As a matter of fact, they could make a strong argument to the contrary - i.e. "I am just an animal living out my instincts."
On another note, I have known many good people of faith and you are absolutely right, they are immoral like the rest of humanity. Thus the grace and forgiveness of Christ.

841 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:36:14pm

A primer.

[Link: restful-alertness.com...]

established in being...perform action



Meditation provides for the opportunity to experience the pure aspect of the self...pure being...the absolute non-changing eternal aspect of self...the divine effulgent light of love dawns in the awareness and the gift of wisdom and compassion unfold.
This is the supreme nature of the raw material of creative intelligence...this field of pure life lies beyond the mind, the body, the intellect, the senses and feelings...this is the Transcendent...the unmanifest value of creation.
When through regular meditation practice "Being" is established, then in a natural way, the experience of thought, speech, and action become more frictionless, more efficient, more pleasurable, and more harmonious.

----------------

Restful-alertness is that state of being we often ask ourselves to have. We can sense how much we need it and how much we would enjoy it. We know it's there somewhere and we just want to be able to conjure it up when needed. We beseech our nervous system to please just be calm, peaceful, and harmonious. We wish to be physically and emotionally collected into a condition of balance. We innately know that we have this capability. In fact many of us have experienced such a state without even trying. It just came to us innocently, and then just as easily as it appeared and briefly took up residence, it morphed back into our more common condition of dis-harmony.

Restful-alertness meditation [RAM] is a simple natural effortless mental technique that allows for this unique state of neuro-physiology [ restful-alertness ] to be isolated in its full glory, and with regular practice, this state of pure consciousness becomes the dominant feature of our human expression. The individual aspects of our human personality... body, mind, senses, ego, intellect, feelings, all begin to naturally reflect a greater value of peace love and harmony. We become calm and dynamic. Our ability to become grounded and centered on a platform of infinite stability becomes an all time reality. We are now adding the universal aspect of consciousness to our individual aspect and becoming fully integrated with all of our potential. This is the beginning of becoming fully awake. This is the beginning of enlightenment.



"the purpose of life is the expansion of happiness"

842 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:36:30pm

re: #813 So?

...and how does an evolved nervous system reflect or vibrate itself into knowingness?

We don't know. Do you?

843 sparrowlake  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:37:32pm

re: #831 laZardo

I have this gut feeling that I'll go back to Christianity sometime around my middle age as many of us young religion-buckers tend to do. Otherwise I seem content to dissipate into oblivion.

Middle age is a very relative term. I had a great aunt who, at age 100, described a 74 year old as middle aged. The older I get the more respect I have for people who have the honesty and self-confidence to admit that they just don't know.

844 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:37:53pm

re: #834 So?

Scientists can explain how the great slime of eons past evolved over billions of years to form single celled organisms that went on to evolve to who we are today. However not one scientist can explain how the hardware that evolved, that is, our brain and nervous system etc. is able to create what we call mind and/or self-awareness. Therein lies a conundrum.

It is not a conundrum for me but a matter of faith.

But thank you for your response. Between your's and Walter's response, I am seeing that my argument breaks down in some areas that had not thought about.

845 So?  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:38:53pm

re: #836 Bobibutu

First we establish ourselves in Being 24/7. Then perform action from that state - which is knowingness. An evolved nervous system/being is there.

How to get there? Purify the nervous system. By whatever system rings your bell. I prefer meditation.

Establishing yourself in BEING as you put it requires a physical process that knows you exist. No matter how evolved your nervous system is, scientists still cannot explain how the the firing of billions of neurons and synapses create this state of self awareness.

Meditation is wonderful. The many threads over the months have spoken of physical evidence. I am just posing the next question on the evolutionary ladder, that's all.

846 So?  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:39:57pm

re: #838 basho

Read the book ''I am a strange loop.''

Is that in the Garageband help menu? lol.

847 Jimmah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:40:00pm

re: #834 So?

Scientists can explain how the great slime of eons past evolved over billions of years to form single celled organisms that went on to evolve to who we are today. However not one scientist can explain how the hardware that evolved, that is, our brain and nervous system etc. is able to create what we call mind and/or self-awareness. Therein lies a conundrum.

That doesn't mean there won't be a naturalistic understanding in due course. It could take a long time to get to the bottom of such a complex problem, but progress is being made. You should also perhaps bear in mind that not once in the history of human knowledge has the explanation of a phenomenon turned out to be a supernatural one.

848 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:40:32pm

re: #843 sparrowlake

From my POV, middle-age is about the 40s-ish, or at least in a couple of decades when the youthful hormones start to subside...

849 mobaby  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:40:39pm

Does anyone think Josh Rou in the article could be right? - are people (some at least) attracted to the theory of evolution because "they don't want to have to be ruled by God"or recognize something larger than themselves?

850 So?  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:40:50pm

re: #842 Naso Tang

We don't know. Do you?

NO!

851 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:41:05pm

re: #835 LotharBot

It claims to record historical events that took place in the Americas, happening to specific people groups in specific cities and so on. Those events did not take place, nor did the cities exist, nor did the people groups. You can find most Biblical and Koranic(?) cities on google maps, but you're screwed if you want to find Zarahemla or Bountiful.

Very bold blanket statement.

Correct. Since natural calamities and disasters happened on such a scale as to the people, those who kept records, even noting in their records that the face of their landscape was changed to the point that even they didn't recognize it...and that an entire group, the ones that kept records, was eradicated and genocided by the opposing team who didn't keep records aside from oral tradition...go figure. Let's not even go into how many cities from Ancient time in the Eastern Hemisphere are NOT or ever WILL BE included in 'google maps'...Since the Bedouins kept such phenomenal archives and data backups...

Side note: There are Indian groups to this very day who claim to not be indigenous people to America and get upset when called 'native americans' "Our Oral tradition is that we came by ships here...how are we native..."

852 sparrowlake  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:41:51pm

re: #848 laZardo

From my POV, middle-age is about the 40s-ish, or at least in a couple of decades when the youthful hormones start to subside...

LOL. Yer killing me.

853 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:42:02pm

re: #845 So?

Establishing yourself in BEING as you put it requires a physical process that knows you exist. No matter how evolved your nervous system is, scientists still cannot explain how the the firing of billions of neurons and synapses create this state of self awareness.

Meditation is wonderful. The many threads over the months have spoken of physical evidence. I am just posing the next question on the evolutionary ladder, that's all.

Try it - you will like it!

20 mins X 2 daily - AM - PM ... nothing like direct experience to convince one.

854 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:42:17pm

re: #845 So?

Establishing yourself in BEING as you put it requires a physical process that knows you exist. No matter how evolved your nervous system is, scientists still cannot explain how the the firing of billions of neurons and synapses create this state of self awareness.

Strange loops explain it. Next.

855 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:43:35pm

re: #834 So?

Scientists can explain how the great slime of eons past evolved over billions of years to form single celled organisms that went on to evolve to who we are today. However not one scientist can explain how the hardware that evolved, that is, our brain and nervous system etc. is able to create what we call mind and/or self-awareness. Therein lies a conundrum.

Pick any time you choose in the distant or relatively recent past, and you will have had conundrums up the wazzoo. There's always a new one on the next block.

Stick around.

Good night all.

856 basho  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:43:42pm

re: #846 So?

If you don't want references don't ask the question.

857 yfi  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:44:38pm

As a teacher (in the front lines, etc. etc.) I teach my High School students to find the intellectual dishonesty, political spin , rhetoric, and logical fallacies in humanist and Darwinian propaganda. The gifted and talented 15-16 year olds I teach study logic and rhetoric as well as philosophy for this particular reason: to given them intellectual ammunition for their survival at college and university in a few years time. I consider it my calling, priviliege and joy to shepherd these intelligent wonderful kids through their own doubts and crises to arrive at the pint where they can appreciate and articulate the debt Western civilization owes to its Judeo-Christian heritage and how materialism, humanism and darwinism have combined with greed and pride into a toxic acid which will, finally, eat through even it's own basis for morality and ethics. They in turn consider it their calling to stand up for absolute metaphysics and non-relativist ethics in both their social and academic circles. We thank God our creator that what we do in school here in Australia is allowed by law and sanctioned by our school. BTW: love your blog ... have recommended it to my students. I always say: if it's true, it can stand your doubts and fears. Go ahead: take it apart, analyze it and ask the difficult questions. LGF has given us plenty of material. Thanks.

858 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:44:56pm

re: #854 basho

Strange loops explain it. Next.

YOU are the greatest lab in the universe. Put your toe in and then comment.

859 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:45:01pm

re: #839 LotharBot

I was expecting a drive by post. I was wrong.

860 sparrowlake  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:45:20pm

re: #840 mobaby

How about the social contract and the criminal code, for starters?

861 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:45:23pm

The Battle Of Epping Forest

/Selling England By The Pound. deny yourself at your own mortal peril

862 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:45:42pm

re: #840 mobaby

Realwest,
I never said atheists or agnostics are immoral. My argument is that the BIG problem with your beliefs is that is that it is your choice to be moral, there is NOTHING (literally) on which to base your beliefs, except your own existential choice. Some may choose differently and you have NOTHING (literally) to say they are wrong. As a matter of fact, they could make a strong argument to the contrary - i.e. "I am just an animal living out my instincts."
On another note, I have known many good people of faith and you are absolutely right, they are immoral like the rest of humanity. Thus the grace and forgiveness of Christ.


Would you also not agree that the same spectrum of choosing wrongly is available to religious people? They can choose wrongly too. Indeed, there's a religion we discuss frequently here that pretty much forces people to make wrong choices. It starts with an "I".

If you are Christian, you believe that even if you do make a wrong choice that you can be forgiven, not much incentive there. If you are an atheist nobody forgives you if you commit moral ill.

863 laZardo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:46:45pm

re: #852 sparrowlake

If I were more pessimistic than I normally am, I'd be thinking I'm already in my midlife crisis. (;

864 Jimmah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 9:47:30pm