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On the Front Lines of the Evolution Wars in Florida

Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 5:55:09 pm PDT

New York Times writer Amy Harmon follows high school science teacher David Campbell’s efforts to reach students who’ve been raised as strict creationists, fighting a Florida political establishment that’s hostile to the science of evolution: A Teacher on the Front Line as Faith and Science Clash.

Bryce came to Ridgeview as a freshman from a Christian private school where he attended junior high.

At 16, Bryce, whose parents had made sure he read the Bible for an hour each Sunday as a child, no longer went to church. But he did make it to the predawn meetings of the Fellowship of Christian Athletes, a national Christian sports organization whose mission statement defines the Bible as the “authoritative Word of God.” Life had been dark after his father died a year ago, he told the group, but things had been going better recently, and he attributed that to God’s help.

When the subject of evolution came up at a recent fellowship meeting, several of the students rolled their eyes.

“I think a big reason evolutionists believe what they believe is they don’t want to have to be ruled by God,” said Josh Rou, 17.

“Evolution is telling you that you’re like an animal,” Bryce agreed. “That’s why people stand strong with Christianity, because it teaches people to lead a good life and not do wrong.”

Doug Daugherty, 17, allowed that he liked science.

“I’ll watch the Discovery Channel and say ‘Ooh, that’s interesting,’ ” he said. “But there’s a difference between thinking something is interesting and believing it.”

The last question on the test Mr. Campbell passed out a week later asked students to explain two forms of evidence supporting evolutionary change and natural selection.

“I refuse to answer,” Bryce wrote. “I don’t believe in this.”

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1020 comments

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1 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 5:57:35pm
2 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 5:57:47pm

That's so sad.

3 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 5:58:12pm

Brainwashing in action...

4 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 5:58:32pm
In a stormy public comment session, Mr. Campbell defended his fellow writers against complaints that they had not included alternative explanations for life’s diversity, like intelligent design.
His attempt at humor came with an edge:
“We also failed to include astrology, alchemy and the concept of the moon being made of green cheese,” he said. “Because those aren’t science, either.”

Yep.

5 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:00:01pm

re: #3 CynicalConservative

Brainwashing in action...

Technically, brainwashing is converting from one to another. These kids have simply never known anything different.

6 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:00:38pm
Evolution is telling you that you’re like an animal

Bryce, don't let anybody tell you that you aren't a plant

7 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:00:59pm

re: #5 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Technically, brainwashing is converting from one to another. These kids have simply never known anything different.

Good point. Indoctrination at work.

Fixed.

8 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:03:30pm
“Evolution is telling you that you’re like an animal,” Bryce agreed. “That’s why people stand strong with Christianity, because it teaches people to lead a good life and not do wrong.”

Your parents teach you what's right and wrong, by word, by deed, by example. Those without good parents have to learn on their own or find other role models.

Teaching something false is something I consider wrong.

9 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:04:54pm
“I refuse to answer,” Bryce wrote. “I don’t believe in this.”

Flunk.

/just like pressing the Easy Button

10 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:04:56pm

Prove evolution then.

11 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:05:09pm
“I think a big reason evolutionists believe what they believe is they don’t want to have to be ruled by God,” said Josh Rou, 17.

Well- here's a brain bender for you, Josh- some people believe in both.

12 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:07:22pm
13 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:09:14pm

I suppose it bears repeating that evangelical zealots like this are a very small minority of the rather large U.S.religious population.

/because I can see the wheels turning

14 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:09:32pm

re: #12 buzzsawmonkey

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

15 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:11:23pm

students need to learn science. religion should not preclude that.
islam does this and look at the primitive culture of islamic countries.
it is very troublesome to see the western world going in this direction.
it is purposeful backwardness. it will hurt us.

16 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:11:28pm

I once went to a swap meet south of Ocala, Florida and saw many levels of human evolution there. The "Heavy Metal" tee-shirts were in abundance...some with snuff spittle stains.
/say "you bet!"

17 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:11:31pm

re: #8 Thanos

Your parents teach you what's right and wrong, by word, by deed, by example. Those without good parents have to learn on their own or find other role models.

Teaching something false is something I consider wrong.

And failure to use the intelligence that God gave us, by denying what years and years of research has shown to be true, is also wrong. Just absolutely wrong, and I do not believe that is how God intends for us to be.

18 LoFlyer  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:11:35pm

Charles, I agree with you on the evolution debate. But LGF has bigger fish to fry than creationism. I hope to see lots of good stuff from LGF and operator Zombie next week!
/DIA or bust!

19 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:12:00pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

What's your point?

/it's been proven that the Earth is way more than 6000 years old, agree?

20 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:12:18pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Then explain nylonase.
Explain retro-viral DNA.
Explain transitional fossils.
Explain 150 worth of evidence that supports evolution.

21 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:12:51pm

re: #17 reine.de.tout

And failure to use the intelligence that God gave us, by denying what years and years of research has shown to be true, is also wrong. Just absolutely wrong, and I do not believe that is how God intends for us to be.

Thank you for saying it.

22 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:13:25pm

re: #20 Sharmuta

Then explain nylonase.
Explain retro-viral DNA.
Explain transitional fossils.
Explain 150 worth of evidence that supports evolution.

You know you are doing this

23 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:14:09pm

re: #22 reine.de.tout

You know you are doing this

I thought I'd give it the ol' college try.

24 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:14:37pm

Lots of Missing links in Denver

25 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:14:49pm
26 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:15:12pm

re: #24 Shug

Lots of Missing links in Denver

/without hotel reservations

27 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:15:45pm

re: #15 nyc redneck

I totally agree with you. Creationism should not be taught in school. However, evolution should be taught as an unproven theory. It is not all based on fact. Darwinism has been proven wrong in many instances. I believe that as a science it gives students a good basis of what may have happened, but not the only answer. Creationism is based on faith, and evolution is based on theory. The two are like comparing apples and oranges.

28 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:16:04pm
“I refuse to answer,”

...and that's why this revival of creationism is an ati0intellectual movement. The kid knows the answer but refuses to accept it in favor of religious dogma. Empirical knowledge, reason and logic are trumped by scriptural dogma. If you wonder how the Muslim world got to be the way it is you're looking at it.

29 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:16:47pm

re: #22 reine.de.tout

Explain how the eye evolved.

30 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:17:09pm
31 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:17:26pm

re: #27 flynmudd

Darwinism has been proven wrong in many instances.

Name one.

32 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:17:45pm

re: #16 IslandLibertarian

there are many levels of human evolution in every corner of the world, not just the south.

33 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:02pm

re: #9 Killian Bundy

Flunk.

/just like pressing the Easy Button

I have to agree with you there, as long as the teacher is not trying to persuade the student AGAINST the childs beleif system and the wishes of the parents

34 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:19pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Please, don't embarrass yourself with easily debunked talking points. Google the Scientific Method and refresh your knowledge of what you should have learned in 6th grade.

35 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:28pm

re: #29 flynmudd

Explain how the eye evolved.

Here.

36 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:55pm
37 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:18:59pm

We have a real idiot on the line here.

38 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:19:47pm

re: #36 buzzsawmonkey

I know, but if you're leaving and no one else is going to chip in, I thought I'd give it a go.

39 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:06pm

re: #32 bellamags

there are many levels of human evolution in every corner of the world, not just the south.

Agreed. I saw much the same in Northern California and Oregon, sans the Heavy Metal tee's.

40 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:08pm

re: #37 Killgore Trout

We have a real idiot on the line here.

you can't see me ! I'm hiding behind the tall and fat guys!

41 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:28pm

re: #27 flynmudd

You guys keep saying evolution has been disproven, when if so it would be easy to replicate. Do you really think millions of scientists, 30% - 40% of whom are Christians, are really in some dark worldwide conspiracy?

42 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:37pm

re: #33 sattv4u2

I have to agree with you there, as long as the teacher is not trying to persuade the student AGAINST the childs beleif system and the wishes of the parents

I agree too. The parents are ultimately the ones responsible for crippling the child's God-given intellect. Hopefully, the child outgrows it.

43 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:45pm
44 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:20:49pm

10 Questions, and Answers, About Evolution

The questions are from a disco dewd, the answers from the National Center for Science Education.

45 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:05pm

ok lets make this simple. just the simple fact that certain species go extinct and new species are found everyday proves natural selection. If nothing changes then nothing new would be discovered.

46 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:10pm

re: #27 flynmudd

I totally agree with you. Creationism should not be taught in school. However, evolution should be taught as an unproven theory. It is not all based on fact. Darwinism has been proven wrong in many instances. I believe that as a science it gives students a good basis of what may have happened, but not the only answer. Creationism is based on faith, and evolution is based on theory. The two are like comparing apples and oranges.

ok, creationism is based on faith and evolution is a theory.
creationism belongs in church or theology class or in the home.
the science of evolution belongs in the class room.

47 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:26pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

...and that's why this revival of creationism is an ati0intellectual movement. The kid knows the answer but refuses to accept it in favor of religious dogma. Empirical knowledge, reason and logic are trumped by scriptural dogma. If you wonder how the Muslim world got to be the way it is you're looking at it.

Yep, religion is the root of all evil in this country and will surely lead to its destruction.

/are these idiots a bigger threat to civilization than white supremacists?

48 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:48pm

re: #42 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I agree too. The parents are ultimately the ones responsible for crippling the child's God-given intellect. Hopefully, the child outgrows it.

May not agree with a "fixed" moniker, but at least an alternative stance.

49 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:54pm

re: #42 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I agree too. The parents are ultimately the ones responsible for crippling the child's God-given intellect. Hopefully, the child outgrows it.

This goes to a larger issue of personal responsibility and what an educators job is.

50 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:21:55pm

re: #31 Sharmuta

I believe that I heard on the Science Channel in regard to Darwin that the fossil history was inconclusive. There was just too much missing. However, I personally don't care if a person wants to believe they evolved from an earthworm. More power to you. Life is short and after all it's a free country. I just think that both sides should try to come to some kind of understanding. Maybe God created us all through evolution. Who knows. There is more to life and I knew that I could get your goat.

51 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:22:16pm

This teacher is actually great. He's trying very hard to get the methodology and understanding across without challenging or denying their beliefs. If more were like this one, we wouldn't be holding this discussion.

52 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:22:21pm

re: #29 flynmudd

Explain how the eye evolved.

I am not sufficiently science-educated to do that.

I am sufficiently educated to know that evolution and faith easily co-exist.

ID and creationism are faith, and the teaching of this belongs only in religion classes, in church, or at home.

Rejection of science, which is what this rejection of evolution is, as Killgore said in #28, "an anti-intellectual movement", where empirical knowledge, reason and logic are absolutely rejected. Doing that amounts to an absolute rejection of the intelligence that God gave us. Rejecting the gifts that God gave us is absolutely wrong.

53 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:22:35pm
54 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:22:59pm

re: #36 buzzsawmonkey

Remember that "Darwinism" is the term of choice for people who refuse to look at any of the additions to biological and paleontological data which have been added in the last 150 years.

Heh.

What are the odds that, 100 years from now, Einstein will have been proven wrong on some of his conclusions? Science builds upon what's gone before.

55 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:23:03pm

flynmudd = Bryce

56 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:23:28pm

re: #53 buzzsawmonkey

That is a ridiculous statement.

/it was meant to be

57 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:24:10pm

re: #50 flynmudd

Then I think what you heard confused you. At the time Darwin published his theory, the fossil record was very small. That's not the case today. And- I did not evolve from an earthworm. I'm a fish, just like you. Also- Life is short- too short to revel in ignorance.

58 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:24:18pm

re: #55 Shug

Who the heck is Bryce?

59 leereyno  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:24:20pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

Neither have any of the other ideas that human beings have come up with to explain the world.

60 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:24:58pm

re: #47 Killian Bundy

Strawman. I never said that. Dogmatic fundamentalism and literal interpretation of scripture along with the rejection of Enlightenment and Reason will lead to a culture very similar to the Saudis, no science, blasphemy laws, limited free speech, etc. There's no doubt in my mind about it.

61 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:11pm

re: #47 Killian Bundy

Yep, religion is the root of all evil in this country and will surely lead to its destruction.

I would love to see a survey of the number of all hardened criminals incarcerated today in the USA. Serious crimes. Murder, Child molestation, etc. and see the percentage of those that were religious at the time of their crime(s) vs those that were not!

62 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:25pm
63 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:38pm

re: #50 flynmudd

No, it's inconclusive at some fine junctures, but highly conclusive overall. Most people don't understand that each new fossil in and of itself is a fresh challenge to the existing body of theory, hypothesis and fact.

The point is that fresh fossils are found every single day. So far there haven't been any earth shattering finds like a bunny in the stomach of a T-Rex. Each fossil found has supported the theory. That's millions of pieces of evidence.
If you want to find G-D in the gaps, you are welcome to, but don't try to piss on the facts staring you in the face if you would but open your eyes.

64 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:55pm
65 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:25:57pm

re: #58 flynmudd

You- didn't read the article, did you.

You haven't clicked on amy of my links either, have you?

66 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:26:34pm

re: #64 buzzsawmonkey

Sorry. This is my evening to assume the dullard role.

Thank God I get a night off !

67 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:26:48pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Strawman. I never said that. Dogmatic fundamentalism and literal interpretation of scripture along with the rejection of Enlightenment and Reason will lead to a culture very similar to the Saudis, no science, blasphemy laws, limited free speech, etc. There's no doubt in my mind about it.

/so, you fear a Theocracy taking over this country, is that it?

68 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:26:54pm

re: #64 buzzsawmonkey

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

69 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:27:26pm

re: #48 CynicalConservative

May not agree with a "fixed" moniker, but at least an alternative stance.

It's your [excluded, so another strikeover's not called for] right, and my [excluded, so another strikeover's not called for] responsibility to respect it.

Heh ... (-: ... how's that?!

70 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:27:45pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

Not trying to incite here, but does being anti-religious = bigot?

71 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:04pm

re: #67 Killian Bundy

Yes, I'm concerned with religious fundamentalists interfering with science education and free speech.

72 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:04pm

re: #49 sattv4u2

This goes to a larger issue of personal responsibility and what an educators job is.

Yes, too.

73 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:18pm

re: #62 buzzsawmonkey

Who are you? Steven Hawking? You are so smart, you make me feel dumb and that doesn't happen to often.

74 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:27pm

re: #69 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It's your [excluded, so another strikeover's not called for] right, and my [excluded, so another strikeover's not called for] responsibility to respect it.

Heh ... (-: ... how's that?!

Appreciated. Intelligent debate always welcomed!

75 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:33pm

re: #66 sattv4u2

Thank God I get a night off !

And now I'm worried about being laid off entirely...

(LOL, btw)

76 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:28:58pm

re: #60 Killgore Trout

Strawman. I never said that. Dogmatic fundamentalism and literal interpretation of scripture along with the rejection of Enlightenment and Reason will lead to a culture very similar to the Saudis, no science, blasphemy laws, limited free speech, etc. There's no doubt in my mind about it.

Yes. Because I know in My Catholic Church, we HATE electricity, the internal combustion engine, medicine. We LOVE the gag-ball as a means of silencing!

77 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:14pm
78 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:14pm

re: #63 Thanos

Why don't we just agree to not agree on this subject. Like I said before, maybe it's a combination of both and we will both be proven right in the end. If you are right good for you. If I am right then I have kept an open mind to both possibilities.

79 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:17pm

re: #47 Killian Bundy

Yep, religion is the root of all evil in this country and will surely lead to its destruction.

/are these idiots a bigger threat to civilization than white supremacists?

With respect, I think that's an very large overstatement.

80 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:21pm

re: #73 bellamags

Who are you? Steven Hawking? You are so smart, you make me feel dumb and that doesn't happen to often.

I was thinking the same thing - everything he says is so - perfectly stated.

81 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:29pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

/avatar . . . [cough]

82 Padre  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:48pm

I am surprised by the limited support from many of you so-called Lizards. You who spit on others' faith while claiming to hold your own, and at the same time denouncing one for holding steadfast with his.

Good on this student for sticking to his beliefs. Bad on him for not answering the exam question.

83 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:29:52pm

re: #73 bellamags

Who are you? Steven Hawking?

I can assure you that buzzsawmonkey resembles Stephen Hawking solely in the area of athletic prowess.

/

84 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:30:53pm
85 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:30:57pm

re: #78 flynmudd

Why don't we just agree to not agree on this subject. Like I said before, maybe it's a combination of both and we will both be proven right in the end. If you are right good for you. If I am right then I have kept an open mind to both possibilities.

Uh- no. You don't seem at all open to the veracity of evolution, so you're not being open minded.

86 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:19pm

re: #78 flynmudd

Why don't we just agree to not agree on this subject. Like I said before, maybe it's a combination of both and we will both be proven right in the end. If you are right good for you. If I am right then I have kept an open mind to both possibilities.

Ok, I can live with that. The thing I can't live with is trying to force DI's agenda. It's a divisive wedge that is weakening conservatism in America.

87 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:40pm

re: #62 buzzsawmonkey

Einstein has already been proven wrong in certain areas

Didn't know that, but not surprising. The rest of your comment dovetails with my thoughts, and point, exactly.

88 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:45pm

re: #76 sattv4u2

Regardless, the Catholic League has tried to join forces with CAIR to limit free speech and institute penalties for blasphemy. It's a reprehensible effort.

89 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:48pm

re: #83 Occasional Reader

I can assure you that buzzsawmonkey resembles Stephen Hawking solely in the area of athletic prowess.

/

Gold Medal in the 100 meter stop

90 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:31:49pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

He can't do that. Only you can do that. Who does he think he is ?

91 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:32:01pm

re: #84 buzzsawmonkey

seriously, what is your profession? (if you can tell me without having to kill me. )

92 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:32:37pm

re: #79 pre-Boomer Marine brat

With respect, I think that's an very large overstatement.

/yes, it was over the top sarcasm

93 itellu3times  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:32:50pm

send zombie to take pictures of evolution not happening

94 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:33:12pm

re: #92 Killian Bundy

would that look like this?

/
top

95 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:33:24pm

re: #10 flynmudd

Prove evolution then.

Get an education, then.

96 leereyno  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:33:31pm

There was a survey I read about (possibly here) indicating that about 47% of the US public believed in creationism. Now I'm not one to take surveys at face value, but if you assume for a moment that this survey was not a push survey and that its methodology was sound, then its results say something very interesting when compared with another statistical phenomenon.

At any given time, 50% of the population is of below average intelligence. It doesn't matter what that average is, with 300+ million people, the results will always follow a normal distribution.

I think if you were to measure the IQ's of the people who were in that 47% who believe in creationism, you would find that virtually all of them fall to the left of the 50% mark when it comes to IQ.

In other words, belief in creationism (as normally defined) is a pass/fail IQ test.

97 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:33:40pm

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

Thanks. I walk a fine line sometimes, it's nice to see that somebody gets it.

98 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:34:25pm
99 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:34:36pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

Wrong.

100 rawmuse  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:35:16pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

Hey, pal, your icons ridicule the Pope. It is not an unreasonable observation.

101 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:02pm

re: #84 buzzsawmonkey

That, and my flat mechanical voice.

Does this monkey have one of those windup-thingy-keys on his back?

/you had to have grown up in the 50's

102 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:14pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Regardless, the Catholic League has tried to join forces with CAIR to limit free speech and institute penalties for blasphemy. It's a reprehensible effort.

Just out of curiosity, what was your cracker stealing friends goal? "hey ,,, look at me ,,,, aren't I cool that I can spit on your beleifs"?
Let me ask you in a non-religious way. Over there is a bee hive. The bees are just going about their everyday bee business. For no reason at all, you go over and whack the beehive, THEN you complain when you get stung!

103 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:20pm

re: #85 Sharmuta

That's not what I said was it? I said maybe it is a combination of both. I am not excluding anything. I'm not on a crusade to prove someone right or wrong and could personally care less. There are more important battles in my life that consume my time and energy, and believe me trying to battle over something this insignificant does not rate. I'm more concerned about my son having a safe deployment and coming home alive. So whether or not I evolved or was created is just not a passion of mine as it is apparently to you.

104 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:37pm

re: #98 buzzsawmonkey

are you the son of Frankenstein? :)

105 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:36:49pm

re: #29 flynmudd

Explain how the eye evolved.

Get an education, and ye shall know.

106 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:37:24pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

I walk a fine line sometimes

I keep a close watch on this post of mine...

107 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:37:31pm
108 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:38:05pm

re: #104 bellamags

are you the son of Frankenstein? :)

It's FRAHNK-en-steen!

109 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:38:11pm

re: #92 Killian Bundy

/yes, it was over the top sarcasm

Ah ha. That's why it surprised me.

110 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:38:28pm

re: #107 buzzsawmonkey

No, but my father did have a large hand in creating our current thermonuclear arsenal.

It's not the Son of Frankenstein, it's the Son of Oppenheimer!

111 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:39:03pm

re: #50 flynmudd

There is more to life and I knew that I could get your goat.


Is that why you're here?

112 Fast Eddie  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:39:18pm

When I was a graduate student in geology about 30 years ago, I would occasionally get some test answers like this from freshman students who took geology because they thought it would be easier than either physics or biology (one science course was required).

I would just write in a brief rebuttal to their statements - which tended to be things like "evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics" - give them full credit for their answer, and go on about my business. Maybe I should have acted differently, but I figured that one graduate teaching assistant couldn't cure all the ignorance in the world.

113 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:03pm

re: #105 Naso Tang

I'm in college now. But I promise when I get to that class I will write you and tell you all about the theory that was taught okay? I don't believe that creationism or ID should be taught in school. I do believe that students should just be told that evolution is an ongoing theory and that new information is being discovered everyday and that previous theories have been proven wrong. What is so bad about that? Tell all of it; the good and the bad and the right and the wrong.

114 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:03pm

re: #107 buzzsawmonkey

It's cool to have a smart father. Mine is pretty sharp, he has a few mechanical patents and travels all over the world doing "consulting" work.

You buzzsaw have your father's DNA.

115 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:15pm

That's just sad. That there are people who wouldn't be disheartened to hear this talk from American teenagers in the 21st century is frustrating. And the people who bring up children this way, to reject science as a threat to their souls, deserve as much scorn as can be heaped upon them.

116 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:27pm
117 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:45pm

re: #111 solomonpanting

Yes. I like mine BBQed.

118 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:46pm

re: #88 Killgore Trout

Regardless, the Catholic League has tried to join forces with CAIR to limit free speech and institute penalties for blasphemy. It's a reprehensible effort.

I will let Ibrahim Hooper at the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) know of your latest bluster

THAT is your proof that they are "JOINING FORCES" !?!?!

FEH !

119 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:40:48pm

All right. Jimmy Page is on.

120 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:41:18pm

Wow, there's something new about the look here, huh?

121 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:41:36pm

re: #120 Salem

Wow, there's something new about the look here, huh?

I re-did the curtains

122 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:41:55pm

re: #68 Killgore Trout

He's accusing me of being an anti-religious bigot.

Not to worry. He does that to anyone who is flippantly critical of anything religious. You need to be more respectful, like Buzz is.

123 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:42:15pm

A teacher tasked with evolution goes for Mickey Mouse to prove his point.

Oh, the irony....

"Mickey Mouse Evolution 101"

124 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:42:38pm

re: #123 natemannq

A teacher tasked with evolution goes for Mickey Mouse to prove his point.

Oh, the irony....

"Mickey Mouse Evolution 101"

does Mickey have opposable thumbs?

125 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:42:50pm

Charles,

Wait, wait, wait. There's a "war" now, apparently, and it's expanding. Moments ago, it seems, LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

I'll abstain from this one.

I don't agree with the people pushing religious belief onto students, and I don't agree with people trying to exorcise religious belief from students.

The punishment for refusing to answer a question on the grounds of religious belief is marks off a test score. The big red "F."

Certainly not "war" and a "fight."

126 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:42:51pm

re: #103 flynmudd

Yes- it has become a passion of mine. I'm thankful I live in the greatest country in the world, and I think that what your son is fighting for is worth defending in our schoolrooms as well because they are not unrelated. Clinging to religious dogma over reason and logic is not good for any society. Your son is fighting the manifestations of this overseas, and God bless him. Many of us here at LGF are now opposed to it's American counterpart. And yes- I feel passionately about keeping America the best.

127 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:43:21pm

re: #97 Killgore Trout

re: #77 buzzsawmonkey

Thanks. I walk a fine line sometimes, it's nice to see that somebody gets it.

For what it's worth, friend, from my limited experience here I agree with buzzsaw.

I'd like to also add that good character shows through, no matter whatever kind of front you try to put up.

/off base
/out of turn
/meant well

128 tradewind  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:43:30pm

re: #119 Outrider

Mad Men's JP?
I'm missing it?

129 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:43:36pm

re: #116 buzzsawmonkey

The accelerator method, or the reactor method? (it's ok not to answer as that would pretty much out you on last name...)

130 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:43:42pm

re: #125 Cognito

I'm giving you a ding up for that one

131 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:44:34pm

re: #130 sattv4u2

I'm giving you a ding up for that one


Don't criticize the media and Cog is lucid. Kind of weird how that works.

132 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:13pm

re: #128 tradewind

Mad Men's JP?
I'm missing it?

Sorry. Olympics closing ceremony. JP of Led Zeppelin fame.

133 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:19pm

re: #107 buzzsawmonkey

No, but my father did have a large hand in creating our current thermonuclear arsenal.


Thank him for me!

134 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:25pm

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

/that's when I'll fear a "Theocracy" in this country

135 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:30pm

Is anyone else watching fox? Where are they? looks like a steakhouse.

136 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:45:46pm

re: #131 Hard Right

Don't criticize the media and Cog is lucid. Kind of weird how that works.

No one ever seems to pause and wonder whether, considering that media is the only thing I really know -- and how 'lucid' I am otherwise -- whether I just might be right about the media as well.

137 tradewind  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:07pm

re: #125 Cognito

At the risk of inciting rage, why is this even a major topic in Lizardland?
There's so much else happening in the world, and this is one that no one can win.......
Okay. Just saying. Won't say more.

138 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:19pm

re: #126 Sharmuta

Keep up the good fight. I'm glad people are passionate about ideas and are willing to learn more and not be stuck in the 7th century. Keep an open mind and try not to beat Christians over the head with the evolutionary stick. Not all of us are militant.

139 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:28pm

re: #125 Cognito

Where on earth did you get that from what Charles posted? He referenced an article, and stated what was going on.

It's really something that lends credence to something I've been saying all along: creationism is being taught in public schools, as you can see if you read the whole article.

140 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:30pm

re: #134 Killian Bundy

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

/that's when I'll fear a "Theocracy" in this country

Actually ,,, I fervently hope the REGULAR police would be on that NOW

141 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:45pm

re: #135 bellamags

Is anyone else watching fox? Where are they? looks like a steakhouse.

I don't remember the location exactly, but it's a basement bar under the location theyre headquartered.

142 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:46:49pm

re: #135 bellamags

The fox News HQ at the convention is in a "converted" bar

143 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:47:06pm

re: #115 Salem

That's just sad. That there are people who wouldn't be disheartened to hear this talk from American teenagers in the 21st century is frustrating. And the people who bring up children this way, to reject science as a threat to their souls, deserve as much scorn as can be heaped upon them.

It's real simple.

/flunk them

144 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:47:24pm

re: #137 tradewind

At the risk of inciting rage, why is this even a major topic in Lizardland?
There's so much else happening in the world, and this is one that no one can win.......
Okay. Just saying. Won't say more.

I'm not sure that's really a question for me.

145 Charles  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:47:38pm

re: #131 Hard Right

Don't criticize the media and Cog is lucid. Kind of weird how that works.

Or you could look at it another way, and ask why you're on the opposite side on so many other things.

146 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:47:41pm

re: #135 bellamags

Is anyone else watching fox? Where are they? looks like a steakhouse.

/the rented a bar for the week

147 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:09pm

re: #139 Thanos

Where on earth did you get that from what Charles posted? He referenced an article, and stated what was going on.

It's really something that lends credence to something I've been saying all along: creationism is being taught in public schools, as you can see if you read the whole article.

ummmm,, the HEADLINE ,,,,


On the Front Lines of the Evolution Wars in Florida

148 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:17pm

re: #118 sattv4u2

THAT is your proof that they are "JOINING FORCES" !?!?!


None. That press release clearly shows that they tried to get CAIR involved. CAIR declined to participate.

149 tradewind  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:28pm

re: #144 Cognito

I realized that after I posted it.......sorry.
I think you're where I stopped reading and started to post. Disregard.

150 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:31pm
151 kahall  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:34pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Creationism and evolution are both theories. Neither one has been proven or disproved without a shadow of a doubt.

LOL! no, wait your serious. Gulp!

152 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:55pm

re: #139 Thanos

Where on earth did you get that from what Charles posted? He referenced an article, and stated what was going on.

It's really something that lends credence to something I've been saying all along: creationism is being taught in public schools, as you can see if you read the whole article.

Where do I get what, exactly? Be specific, if you don't mind.

153 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:48:59pm

re: #124 sattv4u2

does Mickey have opposable thumbs?

Not sure but evolution is proven when Mickey Mouse loses the tail.

154 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:49:53pm

re: #153 natemannq

Not sure but evolution is proven when Mickey Mouse loses the tail.

Minnie left Mickey !?!?!?!

155 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:49:54pm

re: #136 Cognito

No one ever seems to pause and wonder whether, considering that media is the only thing I really know -- and how 'lucid' I am otherwise -- whether I just might be right about the media as well.

Considering you've been repeatedly proven wrong by many here on that issue, you certainly are not right. You exhibit extreme denial when it comes to the media. A little too close to home I guess.

156 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:49:58pm

re: #150 buzzsawmonkey

Reactor method.

157 SeafoodGumbo  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:49:58pm

OT: On right now....Discovery Channel

The Flight That Fought Back

about Flight 93

158 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:50:19pm

re: #138 flynmudd

I happen to be a Christian. In fact, the Catholic Church supports evolution. Just today I spoke with a recent convert to Catholicism from Luthranism, and because he's an engineer, the Church's support of scientific learning was a major concern of his until he learned more about the Church.

159 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:50:23pm

If he can't or won't do the work, grade him accordingly.

Students have been refusing and unable to do their course work for a variety of other reasons, i.e. laziness, drugs, rebellion,etc. He should be treated the same. If they flunk the unwilling or unable, he should be flunked also. If they pass the unwilling or unable, he should also be passed.

160 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:50:26pm

re: #113 flynmudd

I'm in college now. But I promise when I get to that class I will write you and tell you all about the theory that was taught okay? I don't believe that creationism or ID should be taught in school. I do believe that students should just be told that evolution is an ongoing theory and that new information is being discovered everyday and that previous theories have been proven wrong. What is so bad about that? Tell all of it; the good and the bad and the right and the wrong.

Your intent seems to be good, but the truth is that your explanation simply indicates that you don't know, or understand, what is actually known. With respect, you sound as if you are repeating what you have been told, yet perhaps acknowledging that all of that may not be true.

You don't actually need to wait 'till you get to that class to learn about evolution and all of the scientific disciplines that support it.

However, once you do understand it enough to believe that it is real, then you are still free to believe, as do many many religious people, that God actually designed it that way.

161 Shug  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:08pm

I am amazed at the number of people who spend so much time on a thread that they do not deem worthy of the blog.
Perhaps that's why they haven't gotten around to starting their own

162 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:13pm

i was thinking abt. courage today.
i had a conversation w/ a danish guy. fashion person, most likely gay.
i was so effusive w/ praise for the publication of the cartoons by his country.
he frowned and back peddled and prefaced everything w/ but, but, but, i don't think you should offend people.
i looked at this little guy and he was the classic example of trying to be the last tid bit for the crocodile. i call that cowardice.
i remember alexander solzhenitsyn said something like: from ancient times, decline in courage in a civilization has been the beginning of the end.
how do we get our courage back?
all those ignorant fools at the dem convention recreating '68. they have no idea what is going on in the world.
they don't even KNOW abt. the alligator.

163 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:16pm

re: #145 Charles

Or you could look at it another way, and ask why you're on the opposite side on so many other things.

We definitely don't agree on the media. Other issues? TBD.

164 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:28pm

re: #125 Cognito

Charles,

Wait, wait, wait. There's a "war" now, apparently, and it's expanding. Moments ago, it seems, LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

Define "the battlefield".

165 Da Coyote  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:46pm

I'm not defending the religious zealots, but why not do the obvious and just flunk this kid? He'll never get a job in anything requiring biology - which is a good thing. I'd rather concentrate on the idiots that are graduating HS that cannot even read English, don't know history, and actually think that socialism is a good thing. Creationism wont hurt me. Dhimmicrats will.

166 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:47pm

re: #155 Hard Right

Considering you've been repeatedly proven wrong by many here on that issue, you certainly are not right. You exhibit extreme denial when it comes to the media. A little too close to home I guess.

All right. I don't remember being repeatedly proven wrong about diddly, but that's fine.

Maybe it's just my conveniently umbrella-like "extreme denial."

/love to hear specifics

167 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:47pm
168 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:51:59pm

re: #136 Cognito

No one ever seems to pause and wonder whether, considering that media is the only thing I really know -- and how 'lucid' I am otherwise -- whether I just might be right about the media as well.

ummm,, I know I gave you an upding (deservidly so) earlier. But I also am "in the media" and your posts about it are IMHO dead wrong

(and no, I can't recite any of them right now. I knows em when I sees em)

169 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:06pm

re: #127 pre-Boomer Marine brat

The Pope doesn't believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis. Is he an anti-religious bigot too?

170 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:12pm

re: #152 Cognito

Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

I'll abstain from this one.

I don't agree with the people pushing religious belief onto students, and I don't agree with people trying to exorcise religious belief from students.


You are addressing Charles in your post, and acting as if he wrote the headline. He didn't, he merely posted the interesting article.

171 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:24pm

re: #154 sattv4u2

Minnie left Mickey !?!?!?!

These threads start going downhill so FAST!

172 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:33pm

re: #164 Salem

Define "the battlefield".

That's my point, Salem. It seems to be amorphous, and expanding.

173 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:41pm

re: #125 Cognito

Charles,

Wait, wait, wait. There's a "war" now, apparently, and it's expanding. Moments ago, it seems, LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

If it's here it's not private, is it?

174 dmandman  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:54pm

There is a quick way to pull the plug on this. Simply pull the accreditation from the school for acceptance of the courses as satisfying the required pre-requisites for entrance for under-grad science programs. A few parents seeing the Valedictorians not admitted until they passed some remedial classes or the SAT scores not being high enough to get entrance but to a few schools would be a big convincer. There are quite a few schools that will take the top percentages of a high school but I understand that it only applies to accredited schools. What is the position of the Florida State Universities to this right now (ie accreditation)?

175 Fritz_Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:52:56pm

re: #3 CynicalConservative

Brainwashing in action...

If it's from the NY Times, then by definition it's "brainwashing". So why is the NY Times spending all these column inches defending evolution and denouncing the Disco Institute as the un-evolved troglodytes that they are? Here's even more, published just yesterday.

I understand why the NY Times is in the tank for Obama, supports the Palestinians and other Islamic terrorists, hates America, supported the Soviets for 60 years, and does everything thing in it's power to destroy everything that's good and right in our society.

But why this major effort supporting evolution and attacking creationism? What's the agenda? And why now?

176 Jim in Virginia  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:53:01pm

re: #137 tradewind

At the risk of inciting rage, why is this even a major topic in Lizardland?
There's so much else happening in the world, and this is one that no one can win.......
Okay. Just saying. Won't say more.


1. It's Charles' blog.
2. Lizards like to argue.

177 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:53:15pm

re: #171 pre-Boomer Marine brat

These threads start going downhill so FAST!

I do what I can !

178 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:53:46pm

re: #176 Jim in Virginia

heh.

179 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:54:07pm

re: #176 Jim in Virginia

1. It's Charles' blog.
2. Lizards like to argue.

don't forget #'s 3-10

It;s Charles blog!

180 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:54:28pm

re: #170 Thanos

You are addressing Charles in your post, and acting as if he wrote the headline. He didn't, he merely posted the interesting article.

Who did write the headline, if you don't mind? I believe it's, "On the Front Lines of Evolution Wars in Florida."

181 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:55:07pm

re: #167 buzzsawmonkey

No not really, DOE is in process of resurrecting the capability now and they are looking at both methods. Interestingly enough, the first original fission reactor method seems to be the harder path due to NRC permits.

182 flynmudd  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:55:27pm

re: #160 Naso Tang

Like I said before, maybe God used evolution to create everything. He certainly made us curious to find out and I do believe that was His purpose. Otherwise we would get bored. I have no problem learning about the scientific study of evolution in school and I believe that all students should learn it and be graded accordingly. Creationism and ID should not be taught in school. Leave that to the church and the parents. I don't believe we would have scientists if we didn't have a curiosity to find out where we came from and how we got here. Enough said on this subject. I have a full work day and then classes tomorrow night. Have a good one.

183 Cartman  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:55:29pm

re: #134 Killian Bundy

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

/that's when I'll fear a "Theocracy" in this country

That's socially acceptable behavior?

184 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:56:34pm

re: #172 Cognito

That's my point, Salem. It seems to be amorphous, and expanding.

It must be in your own mind, unless a post on a blog now constitutes a battlefield. Or you're just being a colossal drama queen.

185 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:56:55pm

re: #166 Cognito

All right. I don't remember being repeatedly proven wrong about diddly, but that's fine.

Maybe it's just my conveniently umbrella-like "extreme denial."

/love to hear specifics

Your response is typical of someone in denial. Many showed you in detail how wrong you were, but you were incapable of seeing it. Now I need to go back and bring up info you cannot accept anyway? You aren't worth the time. Now go pat yourself on the back about how you won because I didn't get "specific".
You are just like the DI folks when it comes to the media.

186 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:12pm

re: #137 tradewind

At the risk of inciting rage, why is this even a major topic in Lizardland?
There's so much else happening in the world, and this is one that no one can win.......
Okay. Just saying. Won't say more.

The dendrites of some folks on this site seem to be hell bent on pursuing the Evolution argument.

Many of them are atheists.. Perhaps they're crying out for a little faith and likely read very little Scripture.

That said, I believe that the age of this earth (15 billion years) is exactly congruent with Scripture in that man translated a timeline it could not comprehend at the time into something the authors could understand.

187 macintush  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:29pm

Ho, hum. Back to the Communist Broadcast - Oh, I mean the Olympics, not CNN.

188 kahall  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:30pm

I've noticed recently that the left is using this evolution, creationism thing in their talking points against the right lately and it concerns me. Has it been on the list for a while and I am just now noticing it?

189 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:40pm

re: #182 flynmudd

Creationism and ID should not be taught in school.


Why shouldn't science be taught in public schools? Religion should be taught at home but elementary knowledge of science is essential to being a contributing member of society.

190 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:57:54pm

re: #184 Salem

It must be in your own mind, unless a post on a blog now constitutes a battlefield. Or you're just being a colossal drama queen.

I didn't invent the language, Salem. I took it from the post directly. Wars are fought on battlefields. I'm wondering where the boundaries of this one lie.

191 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:58:17pm

re: #174 dmandman

There is a quick way to pull the plug on this. Simply pull the accreditation from the school for acceptance of the courses as satisfying the required pre-requisites for entrance for under-grad science programs. A few parents seeing the Valedictorians not admitted until they passed some remedial classes or the SAT scores not being high enough to get entrance but to a few schools would be a big convincer. There are quite a few schools that will take the top percentages of a high school but I understand that it only applies to accredited schools. What is the position of the Florida State Universities to this right now (ie accreditation)?

That's not the point of this article. The school is teaching evolution, just like the law requires.

/it's about religious zealot refusnik children, who should simply be flunked

192 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:58:23pm

re: #167 buzzsawmonkey

Good to know. I gather the other method has supplanted his, but it does not dim his luster in my eyes.

Even though your dad came up with that lame-o reactor method? Everyone else's dads were making tritium in much cooler ways that yours was.

193 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:58:41pm

re: #185 Hard Right

Now go pat yourself on the back about how you won because I didn't get "specific".

Brilliant.

194 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:58:59pm

re: #183 Cartman

That's socially acceptable behavior?

/zombie took lots of pictures of it

195 de La Valette  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:16pm

I wish we could just indicate our POV on this topic, and a few others, in our profiles - it gets so confusing.

Like I know Kilgore Trout and I don't eye-to-eye on abortion but we probably are close on evolution, without having to have a thread to argue about it. I have noticed these threads have fewer and fewer proponents of Creation Science, and are a bit of an echo chamber.

196 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:21pm

re: #193 Cognito

Brilliant.

Thanks for proving my point.

197 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:43pm

re: #175 Fritz_Katz

But why this major effort supporting evolution and attacking creationism? What's the agenda? And why now?

What makes you think this blog is a single issue forum? If it is not interesting to you all you have to do is wait a while.

198 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:43pm

re: #188 kahall

I've noticed recently that the left is using this evolution, creationism thing in their talking points against the right lately and it concerns me. Has it been on the list for a while and I am just now noticing it?

It's been on their list for a while now. It's an embarrassing element of "right wing" America and they will continue to exploit it.

199 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:53pm

re: #186 natemannq

The dendrites of some folks on this site seem to be hell bent on pursuing the Evolution argument.

Many of them are atheists.. Perhaps they're crying out for a little faith and likely read very little Scripture.

That said, I believe that the age of this earth (15 billion years) is exactly congruent with Scripture in that man translated a timeline it could not comprehend at the time into something the authors could understand.

You assume too much.

200 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 6:59:58pm

OK Everyone -

Admire the child's courage, no matter how wrong he might be - AND - Re-Phrase the question - something like, starting with an "IF" - the most powerful two letter word in the English Language.
-S-

201 JimmyTheClaw  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:00:06pm

pictures from denver

[Link: dncphotoblog.wordpress.com...]

202 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:00:09pm

re: #169 Killgore Trout

The Pope doesn't believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis. Is he an anti-religious bigot too?

Heh, of course not ... and not just because he's the Pope.

I don't believe in a literal Genesis either, but I believe that God is "the creator" and that evolution is one of his many (scientific, as we call it/them) tools.

/then again *grin*, Benedict DID head the Holy Office, which was once called the Inquisition. .. hmmmm?

203 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:00:45pm

Sharmuta has this tendency to hit -1 whenever he can't refute an argument.

It's really quite quaint.

204 Cartman  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:00:45pm

re: #194 Killian Bundy

/zombie took lots of pictures of it

Never mind. Sorry I asked.

205 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:01:10pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

You assume too much.

I assume too much?

And you know all?

206 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:01:37pm

re: #202 pre-Boomer Marine brat

/then again *grin*, Benedict DID head the Holy Office, which was once called the Inquisition. .. hmmmm?


As long as he wasn't burning Jews at the stake I couldn't care less what his office was called.

207 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:01:49pm

re: #180 Cognito

Who did write the headline, if you don't mind? I believe it's, "On the Front Lines of Evolution Wars in Florida."

Ok, granted, sorry thought that was from the article, I dove right in without reading the NYT headline, war, clash, not much difference. Only in scope. Since the scope of this goes worldwide, I won't argue with Charles calling it a war.
The "where did you get that from" comes from this part:

LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately

Is the article not about evolution being taught in schools, while other teachers in the same schools are teaching ID?

208 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:02:02pm

re: #191 Killian Bundy

That's not the point of this article. The school is teaching evolution, just like the law requires.

/it's about religious zealot refusnik children, who should simply be flunked

Just flunking them because they refuse to learn? I think the teacher is going about it the right way in teaching them. If you flunk somebody out of hand you are doing them a huge disservice now and potentially later in life. But if you make an attempt and get through to most of them that's worth it in the long run.

209 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:02:09pm

re: #134 Killian Bundy

When the Christian religious police storm San Francisco and prevent men from publicly ejaculating from second story windows to the encouragement of adoring crowds below . . .

/that's when I'll fear a "Theocracy" in this country

Yuck. I'll stick to Marti Gras. The only things flying around there is beer and beads.

210 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:02:14pm
211 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:02:42pm

re: #199 Sharmuta

You assume too much.

for the record,

I seem to remember getting admissions of atheism when I posed the question.

212 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:08pm

re: #203 natemannq

You should check your sexist assumptions at the door.

re: #205 natemannq

That's a strawman. I didn't say I knew all. But I do know many people here supporting evolution are Christians or Jews who've read plenty of scripture.

213 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:23pm

re: #201 JimmyTheClaw

"U$A Off the Planet"
/Nice find

214 eclectic infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:25pm
“I refuse to answer,” Bryce wrote. “I don’t believe in this.”

This clearly demonstrates why theology MUST be kept out the science class at the very least.

215 Salem  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:28pm

re: #190 Cognito

I didn't invent the language, Salem. I took it from the post directly. Wars are fought on battlefields. I'm wondering where the boundaries of this one lie.

By jove, you're right. How embarrassing for me.

Well, there you have it. I guess there's a war on. I'm on the side of science, obviously.

216 Occasional Reader  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:29pm

re: #210 buzzsawmonkey

and managed to make themselves sufficiently obnoxious

Ah, so it runs in the family, does it.

/

217 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:31pm

re: #211 natemannq

From who?

218 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:56pm

Sharmuta,

Are you ever NOT logged on?

219 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:03:58pm
220 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:04:26pm

re: #208 BlueCanuck

Just flunking them because they refuse to learn? I think the teacher is going about it the right way in teaching them. If you flunk somebody out of hand you are doing them a huge disservice now and potentially later in life. But if you make an attempt and get through to most of them that's worth it in the long run.

/you can lead a horse to water but, at some point, the reality show must go on

221 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:04:42pm

re: #218 natemannq

What does that have to do with anything?

222 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:04:54pm

re: #203 natemannq

Funny, talk about major assumptions. I do believe that Sharmuta has refuted a few arguments and answered questions ask. If not in the forum at least links are provided.

/I assume that you are a newbie, or someone that doesn't post or read regularly. the cluebat will inform you of your mistake.

223 Dr. Shalit  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:02pm

re: #191 Killian Bundy

That's not the point of this article. The school is teaching evolution, just like the law requires.

/it's about religious zealot refusnik children, who should simply be flunked

"K-B" -

Before we do that, ask the children the same question with an "IF/THEN" basis. Beliefs are personal - questions CAN be tailored.

-S-

224 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:13pm

re: #186 natemannq

The dendrites of some folks on this site seem to be hell bent on pursuing the Evolution argument.

Many of them are atheists.. Perhaps they're crying out for a little faith and likely read very little Scripture.

You know what they say about assuming too much? Most atheists have plenty of faith, it just doesn't happen to be the scripture(s), which you appropriately don't name.

225 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:13pm

re: #214 eclectic infidel

Careful, people will start accusing you of anti-religious bigotry.
/Although I agree.

226 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:39pm

re: #182 flynmudd

i don't count god out of the equation. and i'm a christian atheist.
i do know that the clever purpose of 'creationism', in the class room, is only to bitch slap evolution and nip at the findings and facts of this scientific theory.
creationism brings nothing substantial to the inquiry. as it is faith based.
fake fossils and museums w/ children petting dinosaurs are not based on scientific evidence. this can not be taught in to students.

227 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:05:44pm

re: #220 Killian Bundy

/you can lead a horse to water but, at some point, the reality show must go on

His job is to try and educate, not babysit or coddle. If they refuse to learn that's their decision.

228 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:06:07pm

re: #207 Thanos

Is the article not about evolution being taught in schools, while other teachers in the same schools are teaching ID?

No. The story, to me, seems to be about a war of ideologies.

Let's take for example the young man in question, the young man in Charles's excerpt. Let's say his parents taught him -- privately, at home -- that the universe is a giant ham sandwich.

So he arrives to school, and when his teacher asks him about the dimensions and nature of the universe, he replies, "I'd rather not say, based on my religious beliefs."

The answer is "Your convictions have earned you and F."

The answer is not, as the otherwise misguided bumper sticker says, war.

229 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:06:49pm

These are the people who will soon be stalking and nic jacking you on other blogs.

230 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:07:26pm

re: #206 Killgore Trout

As long as he wasn't burning Jews at the stake I couldn't care less what his office was called.

*chuckle*
/teasing you, and I respect Benedict a lot

IIRC from the time of his election, he did run the Holy Office, which handles cases of challenges to the faith, heresy, and other stuff. Ages ago it was called (at least informally, or only in Spain) the Inquisition. That's merely a bit of trivia I picked up.

231 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:08:16pm

re: #214 eclectic infidel

This clearly demonstrates why theology MUST be kept out the science class at the very least.

Bryce is self-selecting himself out of any real career in science. He can serve tables, sell Real Estate, sell lawnmowers or even loans. He is removing himself from a field for which he is ill suited.

232 JimmyTheClaw  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:08:20pm

re: #213 Killgore Trout

"U$A Off the Planet"
/Nice find

found the link on michelle malkins site cant wait to see zombies newest essay

233 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:08:47pm

re: #208 BlueCanuck

Just flunking them because they refuse to learn? I think the teacher is going about it the right way in teaching them. If you flunk somebody out of hand you are doing them a huge disservice now and potentially later in life. But if you make an attempt and get through to most of them that's worth it in the long run.


Hard to do with this attitude:

“I refuse to answer,” Bryce wrote. “I don’t believe in this.”


Yes. Flunk them if they refuse to learn. Same as math, shop class, or English.

234 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:08:51pm

re: #214 eclectic infidel

This clearly demonstrates why theology MUST be kept out the science class at the very least.

Again, the point is that theology is being kept out of science class.

/that's exactly why the religious zealot refusnik has a problem with the curriculum

235 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:09:18pm

re: #230 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*chuckle*
/teasing you, and I respect Benedict a lot

IIRC from the time of his election, he did run the Holy Office, which handles cases of challenges to the faith, heresy, and other stuff. Ages ago it was called (at least informally, or only in Spain) the Inquisition. That's merely a bit of trivia I picked up.

AND ,, it made for a great scene thanks to Mel Brooks

236 silversmith  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:09:19pm

re: #14 flynmudd

Please tell me you are not serious.

237 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:09:35pm

re: #228 Cognito

So you are saying you missed the part about the fight to get the new teaching standards approved, you missed the part about the teacher still teaching ID under the new standards, and chose to focus on Bryce. Bryce is just the foil in the story as you well know. The war isn't in right the classroom, that's reconstruction, and the pains on both sides thereof...

238 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:09:41pm

re: #234 Killian Bundy

Again, the point is that theology is being kept out of science class.

/that's exactly why the religious zealot refusnik has a problem with the curriculum

Preach on brutha! (oops)
/

239 eclectic infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:10:11pm

re: #28 Killgore Trout

...and that's why this revival of creationism is an ati0intellectual movement. The kid knows the answer but refuses to accept it in favor of religious dogma. Empirical knowledge, reason and logic are trumped by scriptural dogma. If you wonder how the Muslim world got to be the way it is you're looking at it.

Yup. Abandonment of critical thinking doth leads to the dark side.

240 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:10:45pm

re: #195 de La Valette

I wish we could just indicate our POV on this topic, and a few others, in our profiles - it gets so confusing.

Like I know Kilgore Trout and I don't eye-to-eye on abortion but we probably are close on evolution, without having to have a thread to argue about it. I have noticed these threads have fewer and fewer proponents of Creation Science, and are a bit of an echo chamber.

That is true. Perhaps Charles, in his wisdom, will switch to a series on guns, the NRA and so on for a while. That's usually interesting too; and then when there have been enough new lizards we can come back to evolution for a new round, in between all the other stuff, of course.

241 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:17pm

OT: Paul McCartney will finally play in Israel [Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...] Great news, I hope he doesn't back out

242 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:18pm

re: #235 sattv4u2

AND ,, it made for a great scene thanks to Mel Brooks

I'm not familiar with many (perhaps not any) of Mel Brooks' movies.

/color me ignorant

243 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:19pm

argh. Yodalike speak I.

244 Cognito  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:48pm

re: #237 Thanos

So you are saying you missed the part about the fight to get the new teaching standards approved, you missed the part about the teacher still teaching ID under the new standards, and chose to focus on Bryce. Bryce is just the foil in the story as you well know. The war isn't in right the classroom, that's reconstruction, and the pains on both sides thereof...

No, I didn't miss those things. My question, again, isn't whether we should rail against creationism taught in science class. It's where the railing stops.

245 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:11:52pm

re: #243 Thanos

argh. Yodalike speak I.

Understood you, I did.

246 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:12:13pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm not familiar with many (perhaps not any) of Mel Brooks' movies.

/color me ignorant

BLASPHEMER! Burn the heretic!
//

247 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:12:15pm

Looks like I picked a great time to fire my laptop back up. I'm ready to hear some people say that, despite not only piles of evidence but years of huddling with like-minded people, evolution is in fact a farce. Has that happened?

248 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:12:20pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm not familiar with many (perhaps not any) of Mel Brooks' movies.

/color me ignorant

you GOTTA rent it (History of the World Parts 1&2)

249 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:13:53pm

re: #246 Hard Right

BLASPHEMER! Burn the heretic!
//

uh ... give me a minute to method-act myself into a "Joan of Arc holiness" mental picture.

250 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:14:10pm

re: #245 Sharmuta

Understood you, I did.

Speaking of which. Has anybody seen Clone Wars?

Is it worth full ticket price, or should I wait for it to come out on DVD?

251 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:14:15pm

re: #211 natemannq

for the record,

I seem to remember getting admissions of atheism when I posed the question.

You are still assuming. Your assumption has to do with the meanings attributable to "faith" or similar.

252 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:14:31pm

re: #247 cliffster

Looks like I picked a great time to fire my laptop back up. I'm ready to hear some people say that, despite not only piles of evidence but years of huddling with like-minded people, evolution is in fact a farce. Has that happened?

I'm ready to say that you're laptop is a farce ,, does that count?

253 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:14:50pm

Is a public classroom private now Cognito? Is public discussion now private? Are statements made in class now private? Are statements written on exams private?

254 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:15:03pm

re: #232 JimmyTheClaw

I'm very much looking forward to Zombie's coverage.

255 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:15:09pm

re: #250 Syrah

If it's anything like the movies, I would wait for DVD. That way you won't feel cheated.

/still bitter about episodes 1-3

256 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:15:17pm

re: #250 Syrah

Haven't seen it yet. I'm sure it's at least worth matinee prices.

257 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:15:59pm

re: #242 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I'm not familiar with many (perhaps not any) of Mel Brooks' movies.

/color me ignorant

Good grief!

258 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:16:03pm

I hab a col ab my brain hurbs so I wib refrain frob thib debabe

259 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:16:12pm

re: #249 pre-Boomer Marine brat

uh ... give me a minute to method-act myself into a "Joan of Arc holiness" mental picture.

Take your time. We're having a problem starting a fire. (You mean to tell me no one here smokes?! Damned health nuts.)

260 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:16:36pm

The teacher seemed to me to go to great pains to not oppose private belief Cognito.

261 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:16:40pm

re: #254 Killgore Trout

I'm very much looking forward to Zombie's coveragecleaverage.

262 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:17:06pm

re: #258 A Kiwi Infidel

I hab a col ab my brain hurbs so I wib refrain frob thib debabe

Heb codes suck.

263 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:17:11pm

re: #252 sattv4u2

I'm ready to say that you're laptop is a farce ,, does that count?

I had faith in what you said, and based on that I bashed my laptop into my head. As it turns out, what you said was bullsh*t!

264 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:17:23pm

re: #250 Syrah

Speaking of which. Has anybody seen Clone Wars?

Is it worth full ticket price, or should I wait for it to come out on DVD?

My son (14) a HUGE Star Wars fan does NOT want to see it. He says "the trailers I've seen are supposed to be from the best parts of a movie. If those are the BEST parts, I'll pass"

265 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:17:30pm

re: #259 Hard Right

Take your time. We're having a problem starting a fire. (You mean to tell me no one here smokes?! Damned health nuts.)

Wanna borrow my cigarette lighter?

266 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:18:39pm

re: #265 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Wanna borrow my cigarette lighter?

Gives new meaning to being "hoist upon ones own petard". :)

267 Fritz_Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:18:42pm

re: #197 Naso Tang

re: #175 Fritz_Katz
But why this major effort supporting evolution and attacking creationism? What's the agenda? And why now?


What makes you think this blog is a single issue forum? If it is not interesting to you all you have to do is wait a while.

And what makes you think that I was referring to this blog? If you'll re-read my #175, you will see that I was referring to the NY Times -- and the hundreds of column inches the Old Grey Lady is expending attacking creationism and defending evolution.

B.T.W., I do believe in evolution and think the creationists are completely wrong. It's just that I know the NY Times always has an ulterior motive.

268 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:19:06pm

re: #266 BlueCanuck

Gives new meaning to being "hoist upon ones own petard". :)

LOL

269 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:19:08pm

re: #263 cliffster

I had faith in what you said, and based on that I bashed my laptop into my head. As it turns out, what you said was bullsh*t!

at least you didn't bash the laptop pn something useful, like a chair or a table

270 newsjunkie_ky  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:19:12pm

FYI
On the Discovery Channel they are showing "the Flight that Fought Back" narrated by Keifer Southerland. It will be replayed in a few hours. I thought I had seen them all but somehow missed this one. It is very powerful.

271 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:19:41pm

Killgore, you still around?

272 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:20:07pm

This thread needs to be cleansed with a sage smudging ceremony.

273 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:20:08pm

re: #271 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Killgore, you still around?

no,,, he's heading to midnight Mass

274 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:20:57pm

re: #269 sattv4u2

at least you didn't bash the laptop pn something useful, like a chair or a table


Dont make me laugh, coz when I laugh I coff and when I coff I dont stop and it hurts.

275 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:21:24pm
276 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:22:32pm

re: #267 Fritz_Katz

And what makes you think that I was referring to this blog? If you'll re-read my #175, you will see that I was referring to the NY Times -- and the hundreds of column inches the Old Grey Lady is expending attacking creationism and defending evolution.

B.T.W., I do believe in evolution and think the creationists are completely wrong. It's just that I know the NY Times always has an ulterior motive.

they needed to fll the space left with all those advertisers leaving !

277 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:22:55pm

re: #264 sattv4u2

My son (14) a HUGE Star Wars fan does NOT want to see it. He says "the trailers I've seen are supposed to be from the best parts of a movie. If those are the BEST parts, I'll pass"

That is discouraging.

I am appalled at how they turned such a potentially good story into such whiny-mush. I thought that A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back were good. It all went to pot after that.

278 Thanos  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:23:36pm

re: #267 Fritz_Katz

The "Why now" part is easy to answer. Discovery Institute keeps pushing the issue with lots of funding. On top of that "Expelled Exposed" is still making waves, it just went into DVD sales recently IIRC. On top of that, several states are in the throes of this, not just FL. Next door there's Louisiana for instance.

There's that thing in physics about opposite reactions...

279 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:23:38pm

re: #274 A Kiwi Infidel

Dont make me laugh, coz when I laugh I coff and when I coff I dont stop and it hurts.

ask cliffster for his laptop. When you get it, whack YOURSELF in the head. The pain will stop the laughter

280 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:19pm

re: #269 sattv4u2

That's crap. My head is very useful - holding up my hat, cushioning blows that might otherwise cause damage.. plus it has a mouth that provides a great place for drinking beer.

281 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:22pm

re: #275 ploome hineni

any relation?

MY G*D, Ploome!
That's an OLD one!
(I used to watch Felix. Thanks!)

282 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:35pm

re: #267 Fritz_Katz

And what makes you think that I was referring to this blog? If you'll re-read my #175, you will see that I was referring to the NY Times -- and the hundreds of column inches the Old Grey Lady is expending attacking creationism and defending evolution.

B.T.W., I do believe in evolution and think the creationists are completely wrong. It's just that I know the NY Times always has an ulterior motive.

Yes, I misread and thought you were by extension referring to this blog. My apologies.

However, I suggest that it is not the NYT which is bringing this matter to the fore, it is the creationist's stealth efforts to damage our education system, often in collusion with the far right, that has made it an issue of interest to many, not just the NYT.

283 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:46pm
284 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:24:49pm

re: #265 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Wanna borrow my cigarette lighter?

Hey, thanks.
(For crying out loud. Get REAL firewood. No, DURAFLAME logs don't count! You people will be the death of me. What? By you people I meant you guys. No I didn't mean that. You're being ridiculous. Fine go home then. Jeez)

Nuts. Here's your lighter back.

285 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:25:07pm
286 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:25:38pm

re: #280 cliffster

That's crap. My head is very useful - holding up my hat, cushioning blows that might otherwise cause damage.. plus it has a mouth that provides a great place for drinking beer.

ahh ,, good points. In that case, smack the laptop against Kiwi's head!

287 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:25:42pm

re: #279 sattv4u2

ask cliffster for his laptop. When you get it, whack YOURSELF in the head. The pain will stop the laughter


Trouble is my head hurts so much that if I whack it with a laptop, my eyes will probably pop out.

288 silversmith  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:26:00pm

re: #162 nyc redneck

How right you are. Courage is putting your hand in the fire knowing you will be burned. Wisdom is knowing when to put your hand in the fire.

289 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:26:48pm

re: #284 Hard Right

Ah nuts, and I had the hot dogs and marshmallows all ready too.

290 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:27:52pm

THe rosy sunset racces in from the east and touches the tops of the an Gabriel Mountains. (Towercam)

And God is a fact not dependent on anything, no, not even on what we humans think about evolution or the lack of it.

291 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:27:52pm

re: #285 ploome hineni

great music

Yes. Wonderful.

292 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:08pm

re: #282 Naso Tang

Yes, I misread and thought you were by extension referring to this blog. My apologies.

However, I suggest that it is not the NYT which is bringing this matter to the fore, it is the creationist's stealth efforts to damage our education system, often in collusion with the far right, that has made it an issue of interest to many, not just the NYT.

Creationist stealth efforts damaging our education system? I don't think so!

What is damaging our education system the most is the teachers hands being tied to not be able to take action against bad kids, the forced multiculturalism, and the laziness and apathy of parents who won't discipline their kids and train them to respect teachers and those who are their elders.

Let there be free inquiry and discipline in the schools and the creation/evolution system will settle itself.

293 Moe Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:27pm

I would like to know more about what ideas the creationists are actually proposing to put on school curricula regarding the origins of life, the universe, etc. Can anyone throw me a link or two that would bring me up to speed on that?

294 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:33pm

re: #289 BlueCanuck

Ah nuts, and I had the hot dogs and marshmallows all ready too.

Well, we have some duraflame logs to work with. Don't think it will help the taste tho.

295 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:39pm

re: #290 Ojoe

San Gabriel Mountains.

Sheesh.

PIMF


Good Night All.

296 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:28:55pm

re: #288 silversmith

How right you are. Courage is putting your hand in the fire knowing you will be burned. Wisdom is knowing when to put your hand in the fire.

/or, if you're Gordon Liddy, the trick is not minding the pain

297 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:01pm
298 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:30pm

re: #272 bellamags

This thread needs to be cleansed with a sage smudging ceremony.

Had forgotten ... used to live in San Diego - collected the stuff - grows wild there, dried it and smudged away. My stash was used up years ago after moving north. Gotta go get some. Almost as good as frankincense and myrrh ... used to have mini charcoal briquettes for burning them. Ah memories.

299 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:34pm

re: #287 A Kiwi Infidel

Trouble is my head hurts so much that if I whack it with a laptop, my eyes will probably pop out.

just don't get eye-juice on the laptop. The warranty doesn't cover that

300 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:42pm

re: #284 Hard Right

Hey, thanks.
(For crying out loud. Get REAL firewood. No, DURAFLAME logs don't count! You people will be the death of me. What? By you people I meant you guys. No I didn't mean that. You're being ridiculous. Fine go home then. Jeez)

Nuts. Here's your lighter back.

You and al Qaida! It's hard to get good help nowadays, isn't it?

Hey, belly up. We've got shots and beer. Whattya want? Tell me all about it.

301 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:43pm

re: #293 Moe Katz

I would like to know more about what ideas the creationists are actually proposing to put on school curricula regarding the origins of life, the universe, etc. Can anyone throw me a link or two that would bring me up to speed on that?

Here's one.

302 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:29:49pm

re: #283 ploome hineni

I LOVE Felix

Fritz is more fun

fooling around

303 MandyManners  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:30:25pm

Can *this* evolve into anything worthy of the title, Vice President of the United States of America?

304 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:31:27pm

re: #282 Naso Tang

I don't think creationists are trying to sabotoge our education system. I think they are afraid the students being taught evolution will start to question everything from the bible if they realize the story of Genesis is not literal. They are just afraid and or stubborn. The Bible and other religious books provide ways for people and societies to live happier and civil lives (excluding extremists on all fronts). The 10 commandments really make a lot of sense and give basic rules for humanity. The teaching of evolution is the only thing that creationists are bitching about as far as I know. Math, history, reading and other subjects are not an issue for these people.

305 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:31:59pm

re: #290 Ojoe

breathtaking

306 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:10pm

re: #301 Sharmuta

Here's one.

I thnk Moe is talking more in terms of links showing where Creationists are trying to force school districts to add ID to PUBLIC School cuuriculums

307 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:26pm

re: #292 songbird


Let there be free inquiry and discipline in the schools and the creation/evolution system will settle itself.

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?

308 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:39pm

re: #293 Moe Katz

I would like to know more about what ideas the creationists are actually proposing to put on school curricula regarding the origins of life, the universe, etc. Can anyone throw me a link or two that would bring me up to speed on that?

Many links have been posted in these threads. If you're looking for a starting place, here are the two things that I started with:

Wiki - "Wedge Strategy"

The Wedge Document

The goals and objectives on page 4 of the Wedge document are enlightening.

309 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:49pm

re: #303 MandyManners

Can *this* evolve into anything worthy of the title, Vice President of the United States of America?

Hey Mandy - I like you, you're funny. I apologize for harrassing you the other night about girls/women. ;)

310 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:32:54pm

re: #162 nyc redneck

Like the COEXIST bumper stickers that you see on peoples cars. The only people that could think that they are profound would be those that know nothing about the religions referenced.

311 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:04pm

re: #306 sattv4u2

That's not what Moe asked.

312 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:27pm

re: #297 ploome hineni

try google

Good advice from "da google queen".

313 silversmith  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:33pm

re: #282 Naso Tang

I find my local paper prints editorials that are mostly from right wing nut job that totally support the ID and Creationist philosophy. It make conservatives look like loonys and I think that is why they do it.

314 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:36pm

re: #303 MandyManners

Can *this* evolve into anything worthy of the title, Vice President of the United States of America?

Have you sent that linky to the McCain campaign HQ?

315 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:33:43pm

re: #307 Naso Tang

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?

do that with power tools, you get lots of kids nicknamed STUMPY

316 Moe Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:00pm

re: #306 sattv4u2

I thnk Moe is talking more in terms of links showing where Creationists are trying to force school districts to add ID to PUBLIC School cuuriculums

Yep, thanks for clarifying my meaning. I'd be interested in what they want to be said in the classroom.

317 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:19pm

re: #293 Moe Katz

Pandas and people was the last text they tried to push in public schools.

318 reine.de.tout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:32pm

re: #290 Ojoe

THe rosy sunset racces in from the east and touches the tops of the an Gabriel Mountains. (Towercam)

And God is a fact not dependent on anything, no, not even on what we humans think about evolution or the lack of it.

I just love your towercam!

319 silversmith  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:36pm

re: #296 Killian Bundy

Pain good. Mongo like pain.

320 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:36pm
321 LotharBot  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:34:55pm

If you want to reach kids who've been brought up creationist* you have to do the following:

1) treat them with respect. The moment you treat them like an idiot is the moment you lose them. They're drawing conclusions based on faulty information; they're not stupid or evil (#96 leerayno, I'm looking at you.)

2) treat their religion with respect. You're trying to teach them evolution, not convert them to atheism or agnosticism... and if you are, you're exactly the kind of jerk who lends credibility to the creationists who see evolution as a war against their religion. (If you're trying to convert them away from their religion, please, don't go all Discovery Institute by using evolution as a wedge. I cannot stress this enough; equating evolution and atheism to make the case for EITHER means you are a part of the problem.)

3) take their ideas and objections seriously. Don't just dismiss everything they say as "creationist tripe" and try to indoctrinate them into a religion of evolutionism. Very often, the issues they raise are valid, either for scientific or philosophical reasons. Recognize when their objections or questions have merit, and address them accordingly**

4) give them correct information about evolution. If you just replace their creation myth with an evolution myth, you haven't really made any progress. You have to teach them things that are accurate, evidentially supported, and scientifically worthwhile. (More generally, if you teach anyone anything, make sure it's worth their time.) The goal is not to make them evolution believers, but to educate them as to what evolution is, how it takes place, and why it matters. (This step, by the way, means you need to understand evolution too. If you don't understand mutation, selection, drift, and gene flow as the four pillars of evolution, you have no business teaching. Go do some reading first.)

5) Don't think of it as a war that has to be bitterly fought and won at all costs; just make progress when you can. Don't think you have to completely overturn somebody's belief system in a matter of a few hours, or even months. And don't think you have to attack people whose beliefs are wrong; just respectfully teach them what you can when you have the opportunity.

By the way, most of this advice applies to anything else you teach, or any other context in which you try to influence people. You're not going to teach people evolution, or convert them to your religion, or get them to vote for NObama, or anything else, by standing on the street corner and calling them an idiot. You're not going to accomplish those things by ignoring their questions or objections. You're not going to accomplish those things by treating them like they're morons not worthy of your time. You're not going to accomplish them by bullying them into giving up their argument. You're only going to accomplish them by treating the person with respect and teaching them patiently and carefully.


* like, say, me; my parents had boxes of Chick tracts in the house, which gave me the idea that evolution was TEH EVIL. I later attained a masters studying evolutionary genetics in a mathematical biology program, and I'm still a hard-core Christian who teaches sunday school. I mostly believe in evolution, though I think there are areas that require more study.

** I couldn't get straight answers from people for a long time. When I brought up questions I tended to get answers like "your ideology has blinded you." It wasn't until grad school that I met people who accepted and addressed my curiosity rather than treating my questions like defense mechanisms.

322 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:35:18pm

re: #311 Sharmuta

That's not what Moe asked.

re: #316 Moe Katz

Yep, thanks for clarifying my meaning. I'd be interested in what they want to be said in the classroom.

I think it IS

323 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:35:36pm

re: #271 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Yeah, still here for a bit.

324 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:35:54pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?

do that with power tools, you get lots of kids nicknamed STUMPY

Do not use remaining fingers as pushsticks

325 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:36:38pm

re: #324 solomonpanting

Do not use remaining fingers as pushsticks

always try to leave at least one digit attached to dial 911

326 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:36:43pm
327 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:36:49pm

I have experience being taught in a private baptist elementary school and public middle and high school. The baptist school did not teach creationism, just basic biology and physics (hot air rises, different types of clouds, etc.) They kind of skipped over the evolution part.

My high school just briefly touched on evolution (in the late 80's). I have a pretty well rounded view on science and I believe in evolution. You have to be not smart to not see it. I also believe in God and the same goes for that.

328 Hard Right  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:37:18pm

re: #300 pre-Boomer Marine brat

You and al Qaida! It's hard to get good help nowadays, isn't it?

Hey, belly up. We've got shots and beer. Whattya want? Tell me all about it.

Yes, good mindless zealots are hard to come by. It's even worse when they're union.
Wish I could have a few drinks but I have to be up at 4am. Thanks tho. Have a good night and take care.

329 MandyManners  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:37:39pm
330 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:37:59pm

re: #329 MandyManners

Nighty-night!

Cya Mands

331 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:38:13pm

re: #316 Moe Katz

Yep, thanks for clarifying my meaning. I'd be interested in what they want to be said in the classroom.

/and keep in mind that, so far, in modern U.S. history, there's an infinite gap between what they want to be public school science curricula and what is, in fact, public school science curricula

332 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:38:24pm

re: #244 Cognito

No, I didn't miss those things. My question, again, isn't whether we should rail against creationism taught in science class. It's where the railing stops.

Agreed. Any orthodoxy which is extreme in application is a form can take on aspects of fascism. I am a Believer. But to deny the existence of evolution as a verifiable concept is foolhardy. There is room within the margins for both constructs being taught [to a degree]. Obviously, evolution as a more explicable discipline will have precedence. But it should not shut out the existence of a God/Creator even in a science class. The Truth is the Truth. When one views all things beautiful in nature and in the world in general, one is as close to witnessing the splendor and magnificence of God as ever. As Pope Benedict has recently declared, they are not mutually exclusive.

333 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:05pm
334 cliffster  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:07pm

re: #321 LotharBot

that was pretty.

335 Alouette  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:11pm

OMG, OMG, I just watched The. Worst. Movie. Ever. which has just bumped The Second. Worst. Movie. Ever. out of first place on my list of 90 minutes of my life I will never get back.

I really love monster movies, I think they are cool. Here's my idea of the perfect monster movie, starring Kiefer Sutherland, Bruce Willis, Chuck Norris, Chris Rock and Whoopie Goldberg.

The monster trashes half of the U.S. but Kiefer, Bruce and Chuck kick its ass, Whoopie rapes it, and Chris tells jokes about its momma.

336 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:18pm

re: #304 bellamags

I don't think creationists are trying to sabotoge our education system. I think they are afraid the students being taught evolution will start to question everything from the bible if they realize the story of Genesis is not literal. They are just afraid and or stubborn. The Bible and other religious books provide ways for people and societies to live happier and civil lives (excluding extremists on all fronts). The 10 commandments really make a lot of sense and give basic rules for humanity. The teaching of evolution is the only thing that creationists are bitching about as far as I know. Math, history, reading and other subjects are not an issue for these people.

My daughter is a 10th grader this year and it seems that her Biology teacher is a gung ho evolutionist. While our family believes in creation rather than evolution (we do believe in some form of evolution within species - that just makes sense) we are not really literalists as far as Genesis is concerned. I guess what we would prefer is an acknowledgment that evolution is a theory and that, although many biological questions can be answered using an evolutionary model, there are other theories seem to give answers as well.

337 sparrowlake  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:20pm

re: #285 ploome hineni

great music

I used to watch the TV show when I was a kid - loved it.
Theme song:
Felix the cat, the wonderful wonderful cat,
Whenever he gets in a fix,
He reaches into his bag of tricks,
Felix the cat, the wonderful wonderful cat,
You'll laugh so hard your sides will ache,
Your heart will go pitter pat,
Watching Felix the wonderful cat.

338 Inquisitive  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:28pm

re: #125 Cognito

Charles,

Wait, wait, wait. There's a "war" now, apparently, and it's expanding. Moments ago, it seems, LGF was crusading against creationism taught in schools. Now the battlefield has enlarged to include anyone who believes in creation privately?

I'll abstain from this one.

I don't agree with the people pushing religious belief onto students, and I don't agree with people trying to exorcise religious belief from students.

The punishment for refusing to answer a question on the grounds of religious belief is marks off a test score. The big red "F."

Certainly not "war" and a "fight."


THANK YOU COGNITO! I have spent 30 minuets typing and deleting, trying to say the same thing....the debate is suppose to be about what is taught in our schools science class.

339 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:39:53pm

re: #333 buzzsawmonkey

So you're well prepared for the Obama candidacy?

or to see Michael Moore and Roseann Barr floating over Denver

340 JimmyTheClaw  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:20pm

re: #270 newsjunkie_ky

FYI
On the Discovery Channel they are showing "the Flight that Fought Back" narrated by Keifer Southerland. It will be replayed in a few hours. I thought I had seen them all but somehow missed this one. It is very powerful.

replays at 1 am eastern time

341 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:27pm

re: #273 sattv4u2

The only midnight mass worth my while is Greek Orthodox Easter. I dig the tunes and I love the smell of the bees wax candles.

342 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:35pm
343 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:43pm

re: #332 wright1

But it should not shut out the existence of a God/Creator even in a science class.

No- God falls outside the realm of science and therefore cannot be taught in science class.

344 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:40:48pm

re: #307 Naso Tang

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?

Students need to learn critical thinking and logic skills. Teachers give facts and teach students to think - at least they should.

345 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:41:37pm

re: #325 sattv4u2

always try to leave at least one digit attached to dial 911

Do not look at laser with remaining eye

346 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:41:39pm

re: #275 ploome hineni

any relation?

You get an up-ding from me on that one!

347 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:41:44pm

re: #341 Killgore Trout

The only midnight mass worth my while is Greek Orthodox Easter. I dig the tunes and I love the smell of the bees wax candles.

it is something to see and hear(as long as you don't whack the bees nest to get the wax)

348 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:41:58pm

re: #323 Killgore Trout

Yeah, still here for a bit.

Just on a wild hair, have you ever seen/heard of an 80's movie called "The Scarlet and the Black"? Gregory Peck, Christopher Plummer, Sir John Gielgud?

349 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:42:17pm

re: #293 Moe Katz

I would like to know more about what ideas the creationists are actually proposing to put on school curricula regarding the origins of life, the universe, etc. Can anyone throw me a link or two that would bring me up to speed on that?

Here you go...

[Link: yadayahweh.com...]

350 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:42:25pm

re: #328 Hard Right

Yes, good mindless zealots are hard to come by. It's even worse when they're union.
Wish I could have a few drinks but I have to be up at 4am. Thanks tho. Have a good night and take care.

Thanks for the laughs!

351 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:42:52pm

re: #321 LotharBot


You could pretty much switch the words "creation/ism/ists" with "evolution/ism/ists" and your argument would continue to hold water. The one thing I hate about the crowd from Answers in Genesis is their mocking attitude. You make no friends, and only enemies, when mock another persons beliefs.

352 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:43:01pm
353 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:43:47pm

i think b.o. asked hillary and she refused.

354 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:44:01pm

re: #352 buzzsawmonkey

Funny, but I don't see a lot of people urging the "let the kids figure it out for themselves" approach as the best way to teach sex education.

I thought they named that Don't Ask/ Don't Tell

355 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:44:29pm

re: #304 bellamags

I don't think creationists are trying to sabotoge our education system.

Certainly, the word sabotage depends on one's perspective.


I think they are afraid the students being taught evolution will start to question everything from the bible if they realize the story of Genesis is not literal. They are just afraid and or stubborn.

True

The Bible and other religious books provide ways for people and societies to live happier and civil lives (excluding extremists on all fronts).


Unfortunately those who would want to force my kids under their religious indoctrination do qualify as extremists according to what I believe the principles of the USA to be.


The 10 commandments really make a lot of sense and give basic rules for humanity.

Actually there are more than 10, or several versions of the 10 depending on who you listen to, but it is not only Christians who apply the main principles involved, meaning they have no monopoly on morality.


The teaching of evolution is the only thing that creationists are bitching about as far as I know. Math, history, reading and other subjects are not an issue for these people.

Math, history, reading are a means to critical and creative thinking. They are not an end in themselves. Creationists, by definition, wish to destroy critical thinking, although they don't see it that way since they can't think critically.

356 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:44:50pm

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

357 MacGiolaPhadraig  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:45:31pm

Anyone else read Stephen Gould's "Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History"? Nothing I remember in it so much as mentioned creationism, but such a Tour de Force on the explosion of life in the pre-Cambrian, and the relationships between the wonderfully weird creatures preserved in the Burgess, that it changed a lot of minds!

358 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:45:48pm

what a joke for her to run as vice-p, w/ him.
she is enough of a buzzard to sense decay.

359 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:07pm
360 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:14pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

The Lizard of course.

It's turtles all the way down.

361 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:17pm

re: #333 buzzsawmonkey

heh. in more ways than you know.

It was a predominately white school. This new kid starts who happens to be black. No one really cared he was black. He was in the band as I and we both played the flute. I was first chair and had a specific seat to sit in each practice. On his first day, he sat in my seat. I asked him to move and he hit me with his flute. I was shocked. I went up and told the teacher what he did (5th grade) and the kid told the teacher I called him a ni**er. I did not and have not.

I had to do a report on Africa, stand in front of the whole cafeteria and apologize to him and run laps at recess for something I didn't do.

362 CynicalConservative  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:22pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Hmmm, Buffalo wings and omelettes? Dinner and breakfast in one...

363 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:42pm

re: #359 buzzsawmonkey

There's an old cartoon showing a chicken and an egg in bed, the chicken smoking a cigarette, and the caption is, "I guess we answered that question."

LOL!

364 BlueCanuck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:46:58pm

BBIAW folks, time to start the commute to work.

365 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:11pm
366 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:12pm

re: #318 reine.de.tout

Actually the Towercam belongs to the astronomers at University of California Los Angeles.

I just put up a link here.

Glad you like it.

367 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:14pm

re: #341 Killgore Trout

The only midnight mass worth my while is Greek Orthodox Easter. I dig the tunes and I love the smell of the bees wax candles.

When I lived in Boston, I used to love to go to the Arch Street Church/ Christmas midnight mass. The ole latin chants, gregorian choir ,,, pretty
[Link: www.stanthonyshrine.org...]

368 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:15pm
369 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:47:19pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

The chicken is a chicken, while an egg is a potential chicken.

370 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:30pm

re: #369 Sharmuta

The chicken is a chicken, while an egg is a potential chicken omelet.

371 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:33pm

re: #343 Sharmuta

The problem is then that there is never a discussion of God/Creator -ever. While I am a Christian, I do not think it is appropriate to use public funds to endorse a particular Faith; however, to deprive students the opportunity to consider God as the cause, creation and everlasting power of their individual existence is to deprive them of an innate part of who they are, for each one of us somewhere acknowledges at least the possibility of the existence of one greater. Atheists deny this but invariably in a foxhole even they yield. And to that end I add, what is the harm of such acknowledgement other than a dose of humility?

372 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:44pm

So, all the chatting about evolution's points vs. creationism's points, yet, no real answer to: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

373 songbird  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:51pm

re: #352 buzzsawmonkey

Funny, but I don't see a lot of people urging the "let the kids figure it out for themselves" approach as the best way to teach sex education.


re: #369 Sharmuta

The chicken is a chicken, while an egg is a potential chicken.

Egg?

374 Inquisitive  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:48:51pm

re: #115 Salem

That's just sad. That there are people who wouldn't be disheartened to hear this talk from American teenagers in the 21st century is frustrating. And the people who bring up children this way, to reject science as a threat to their souls, deserve as much scorn as can be heaped upon them.

Your scorn for my Grandparents and Parents is not appreciated!
They did not have the education that you have obviously had, but should not be scorned for believing as they belived( in the Bible as Gospel) and bringing their children up in this believe.

375 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:19pm
376 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:25pm

re: #315 sattv4u2

re: #315 sattv4u2

re: #307 Naso Tang

Ah so, a proponent of teach the controversy; or is it just "let the kids figure it out for themselves"?/blockquote>

do that with power tools, you get lots of kids nicknamed STUMPY

But that will certainly prove evolution of the fittest in a hurry.

377 Kenneth  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:33pm

Frank Marshall Davis, Obama's Communist mentor, was statutory rapist

The book, which closely tracks Mr Davis’s life in Chicago and Hawaii and the fact that his first wife was black and his second white, describes in lurid detail a series of shockingly sordid sexual encounters, often involving group sex.

One chapter concerns the seduction by Mr Davis and his first wife of a 13-year-old girl called Anne. Mr Davis wrote that it was the girl who had suggested he had sex with her. “I’m not one to go in for Lolitas. Usually I’d rather not bed a babe under 20.

“But there are exceptions. I didn’t want to disappoint the trusting child. At her still-impressionistic age, a rejection might be traumatic, could even cripple her sexually for life.”

This is a man Obama described as "a mentor". Sickening beyong all bounds.

378 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:35pm

re: #371 wright1

Do you really want the government to teach children about God? I don't- I will teach my children about God, and the schools can teach them about everything else.

379 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:35pm

re: #369 Sharmuta

The chicken is a chicken, while an egg is a potential chicken.

yeah but, how did the chicken become a chicken?

380 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:49:59pm

re: #359 buzzsawmonkey

There's an old cartoon showing a chicken and an egg in bed, the chicken smoking a cigarette, and the caption is, "I guess we answered that question."


That would HAVE to be Gary Larson.

381 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:50:05pm

re: #372 outsidephilly

So, all the chatting about evolution's points vs. creationism's points, yet, no real answer to: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

In the dictionary,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, CHICKEN
In my local grocery store,,,, EGG

382 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:50:32pm

re: #379 outsidephilly

yeah but, how did the chicken become a chicken?

It evolved.

383 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:50:47pm
384 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:17pm

re: #382 Sharmuta

It evolved.

It evolved from what?

385 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:19pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

As someone here frequently says, try Google.

386 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:25pm

re: #377 Kenneth


Bastard!

387 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:28pm
388 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:34pm

re: #384 outsidephilly

It evolved from what?

Fish.

389 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:37pm

re: #379 outsidephilly

yeah but, how did the chicken become a chicken?

long nights of studying instead of going out partying

390 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:39pm
391 A Kiwi Infidel  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:45pm

re: #386 A Kiwi Infidel

Sorry, not you Kenneth.

392 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:51:53pm

re: #361 bellamags

heh. in more ways than you know.

It was a predominately white school. This new kid starts who happens to be black. No one really cared he was black. He was in the band as I and we both played the flute. I was first chair and had a specific seat to sit in each practice. On his first day, he sat in my seat. I asked him to move and he hit me with his flute. I was shocked. I went up and told the teacher what he did (5th grade) and the kid told the teacher I called him a ni**er. I did not and have not.

I had to do a report on Africa, stand in front of the whole cafeteria and apologize to him and run laps at recess for something I didn't do.


You wouldn't have done that it if you were MY kid.
I can guarantee you that!

393 Bobibutu  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:05pm

re: #321 LotharBot

WOW - Very good. Ever hear of OODA Loops and Col. John Boyd?

[Link: www.google.com...]

and

[Link: www.d-n-i.net...]

We need more like you that embrace effective methodology that works vs. wild eyed idealism.

394 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:12pm

re: #348 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I don't think I've seen that one. I do like Christopher Plumber though.

395 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:19pm

re: #372 outsidephilly

So, all the chatting about evolution's points vs. creationism's points, yet, no real answer to: What came first, the chicken or the egg?

I thought you were jesting with us.

The question "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" is a nonsense question. It presupposes that one came before the other, rather then having evolved dependently together.

396 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:26pm

re: #385 Naso Tang

As someone here frequently says, try Google.

nah, no need for Google - I already know the answer.

397 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #371 wright1

The problem is then that there is never a discussion of God/Creator -ever. While I am a Christian, I do not think it is appropriate to use public funds to endorse a particular Faith; however, to deprive students the opportunity to consider God as the cause, creation and everlasting power of their individual existence is to deprive them of an innate part of who they are, for each one of us somewhere acknowledges at least the possibility of the existence of one greater. Atheists deny this but invariably in a foxhole even they yield. And to that end I add, what is the harm of such acknowledgement other than a dose of humility?

The discussion just doesn't belong in public school science class.

/there's plenty of other outlets, including private school

398 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:52pm

re: #361 bellamags

your teacher was a racist.
and set a bad example for you and the lying boy.

399 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:52:59pm

re: #379 outsidephilly

yeah but, how did the chicken become a chicken?

By looking up, seeing the fox entering the hen house, and running like hell.

400 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:02pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

Do you really want the government to teach children about God? I don't- I will teach my children about God, and the schools can teach them about everything else.

Darn! I can only up ding once.

401 Racer X  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:11pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Fish came first, evolved into chicken.

The real question is which part of the chicken is nuggets?

402 LotharBot  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:22pm

re: #351 A Kiwi Infidel

You could pretty much switch the words "creation/ism/ists" with "evolution/ism/ists" and your argument would continue to hold water. The one thing I hate about the crowd from Answers in Genesis is their mocking attitude. You make no friends, and only enemies, when mock another persons beliefs.

Yes; as I said, it applies to almost anything else you teach.

Groups like Answers in Genesis, and people like PZ Myers, do us all a disservice. They turn the discussion into an emotional, judgmental, "my team vs your team" mess... which is a horrible way to learn or teach anything.

-----

When I was in 9th grade, my biology teacher did something brilliant: he told everyone when we started the evolution unit that, at the end of it, anyone with objections could give a short presentation. He also told us that, when answering test questions, we were expected to demonstrate that we'd understood what he taught, even if we disagreed. This accomplished three things:

1) kept us from interrupting in the middle of class or otherwise wasting everybody's time.

2) made us feel respected -- we were allowed not only to disagree with the teacher, but to explain why, and we weren't mistreated for it. But we also were held to standards of learning -- we couldn't simply say "I disagree with evolution" without being able to say what evolution was.

3) gave us a true knowledge of science, in the sense of inquiry and analysis of information. For many of us, it was the first time we'd really had to weigh bodies of evidence or evaluate research. We sucked at it, being all of 14 years old, but it was a great exercise.

403 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:42pm

re: #396 outsidephilly

nah, no need for Google - I already know the answer.

well I think thats great. Now if a game show would only call you, you'de be set !

404 bellamags  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:51pm

re: #392 Typicalwhitey

I had to apologize that same day and run laps. When i was home doing the report, my dad found out what was going on. I had an easy time at that school after he had a meeting with the principal.

405 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:52pm

re: #389 sattv4u2

long nights of studying instead of going out partying

It's going to hell in a handbasket again!

406 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:53:53pm

re: #224 Naso Tang

You know what they say about assuming too much? Most atheists have plenty of faith, it just doesn't happen to be the scripture(s), which you appropriately don't name.

Atheists have faith?

Classic statement, meathead.

One for the annals.

407 Outrider  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:04pm

re: #371 wright1

The problem is then that there is never a discussion of God/Creator -ever. While I am a Christian, I do not think it is appropriate to use public funds to endorse a particular Faith; however, to deprive students the opportunity to consider God as the cause, creation and everlasting power of their individual existence is to deprive them of an innate part of who they are, for each one of us somewhere acknowledges at least the possibility of the existence of one greater. Atheists deny this but invariably in a foxhole even they yield. And to that end I add, what is the harm of such acknowledgement other than a dose of humility?

That would be an appropriate subject in a philosophy class or religion class; not science class which teaches facts-not faith.

408 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:09pm

re: #367 sattv4u2

I'm glad that Benedict has taken on interest in reviving the Latin and Full Sung Mass. I think it's a good move. Even I'd show up occasionally for the free music. Wine and crackers are a plus.

409 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:38pm

re: #405 pre-Boomer Marine brat

It's going to hell in a handbasket again!

I tole ya ,, I keep TRYIN' !

410 wright1  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:46pm

re: #378 Sharmuta

Do you really want the government to teach children about God? I don't- I will teach my children about God, and the schools can teach them about everything else.

I only wish I could have as much faith in our public schools or our parents for that matter. I was a Prosecutor in Newark, N.J. for many years and I have seen many, many bad things. While you are a capable parent - others are not. Worse, are our educators...The introduction of a Creator is a positive notion, especially to the extent that the student is unbound from Narcissism and Selfishness, something acknowledgment of a Creator gives. Again, humility is a worthy subject in our schools.

411 solomonpanting  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:54:58pm

re: #388 Sharmuta

It evolved from what?

Fish.

Not if the policy at the time had been Roe v. Wade.

412 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:55:17pm

re: #408 Killgore Trout

I'm glad that Benedict has taken on interest in reviving the Latin and Full Sung Mass. I think it's a good move. Even I'd show up occasionally for the free music. Wine and crackers are a plus.

I got news for you ,,,, the wine ,,,, it's not the best, if you know what I mean

413 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:55:55pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

You are persistent. What makes you think you are asking the right question to begin with in order to understand what you don't understand?

414 Moe Katz  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:55:57pm

re: #356 outsidephilly

Interesting discussion, yet, how would y'all answer the question:
What came first, the chicken or the egg?

Neither. The matzo ball soup was first, followed by the gefilte fish.

415 MacGiolaPhadraig  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:14pm

re: #379 outsidephilly

The question presupposes one or the other, as currently "configured" had to exist before the other. Not a valid supposition. Same sort of question as "Could God make a weight so heavy even He couldn't move it?"

416 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:20pm

re: #410 wright1

Would you feel that way if the Creator discussed was allah? How can you have been a prosecutor and not have a grasp on the Constitutional implications of your suggestion?

417 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:21pm
418 Kenneth  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:35pm

re: #391 A Kiwi Infidel


I kmow who you meant.

This biography of Davis lists the book.

419 Killian Bundy  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:56:43pm

re: #408 Killgore Trout

Wine and crackers are a plus.

/and you wonder why you offend Catholics

420 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:57:25pm

re: #415 MacGiolaPhadraig

The question presupposes one or the other, as currently "configured" had to exist before the other. Not a valid supposition. Same sort of question as "Could God make a weight so heavy even He couldn't move it?"

are we back to talking about Micheal Moore, Roseann Barr and Rosie O'Donnel?

421 Naso Tang  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:57:33pm

re: #396 outsidephilly

nah, no need for Google - I already know the answer.

Funny, you don't sound like you do. Are you a troll?

422 natemannq  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:57:35pm

re: #212 Sharmuta

You should check your sexist assumptions at the door.

re: #205 natemannq

That's a strawman. I didn't say I knew all. But I do know many people here supporting evolution are Christians or Jews who've read plenty of scripture.

sexist?

wow. Frankly, I have no idea WHAT sex you are.

423 Syrah  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:58:08pm

I worry that if the state were to teach about God, the state would eventually teach that the state is God.

424 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:58:10pm
425 MacGiolaPhadraig  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:58:28pm

re: #420 sattv4u2

are we back to talking about Micheal Moore, Roseann Barr and Rosie O'Donnel?

I have no earthly idea what that means.

426 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:58:49pm

re: #419 Killian Bundy

/and you wonder why you offend Catholics

I'm Catholic,, that didn't offend me ,, (see my #412)

427 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:02pm

re: #422 natemannq

Gee- you could try clicking on my avatar. You know- it might be a clue.

Or- you can admit I had a point when I said you assume too much, since you now admit you don't know my gender, but called me a man anyways.

428 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:19pm

re: #412 sattv4u2

Tell me about it. When I'm elected Pope (which should be any day now) I'll ditch the "ritual meal", move mass to later on Sunday afternoon (large screen available for football season), I serve a real host of fresh bread, decent wine, acceptable cheese and cold cuts.

429 sattv4u2  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:24pm

re: #425 MacGiolaPhadraig

I have no earthly idea what that means.

sorry ,,,,guess you weren't here earlier

430 mobaby  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:27pm

re: #96 leereyno

There was a survey I read about (possibly here) indicating that about 47% of the US public believed in creationism. Now I'm not one to take surveys at face value, but if you assume for a moment that this survey was not a push survey and that its methodology was sound, then its results say something very interesting when compared with another statistical phenomenon.

At any given time, 50% of the population is of below average intelligence. It doesn't matter what that average is, with 300+ million people, the results will always follow a normal distribution.

I think if you were to measure the IQ's of the people who were in that 47% who believe in creationism, you would find that virtually all of them fall to the left of the 50% mark when it comes to IQ.

In other words, belief in creationism (as normally defined) is a pass/fail IQ test.

I must ask - where do the true blue evolution believers rank on the EGO scale?
There are apparently a lot of below average IQ medical doctors, nurses, teachers, police, politicians, lawyers, astronauts, and engineers as I have personally know people who believe in an intelligent designer from all of these professions. Idiot savants I suppose.

431 Sharmuta  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:32pm

re: #423 Syrah

I worry that if the state were to teach about God, the state would eventually teach that the state is God.

Now I regret I have but one ding to give.

432 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:46pm

re: #419 Killian Bundy

It's no mystery.

433 repj  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:49pm

If they wanted to be truly scientific, then they'd allow all theories to be presented in an unbiased manner. Yet, there are human beings we are dealing with...

434 outsidephilly  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 7:59:57pm

re: #403 sattv4u2

well I think thats great. Now if a game show would only call you, you'de be set !

re: #413 Naso Tang

You are persistent. What makes you think you are asking the right question to begin with in order to understand what you don't understand?

The answer to that question frees my up brain from sorting out creationism vs evolution.

435 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:15pm

re: #404 bellamags


Good deal!
I will always back a teacher if my daughter is talking to much, chewing gum etc.

But if she flat tells me that she did not do something and it is a he said/she said thing, then I will back her 100 percent.

I had a somewhat similar situation when I was in school.
It evolved into a fist fight between me and the girl.
I won lol, but we were both told we would be suspended.
UNTIL that is, my mom showed up.
We had been having some race problems at the school and my mother told the principle that I HAD to stand up for myself and if I was punished in any way that she was going to sue the school for racial discrimination (and I am white!)
She won.
Don't mess with the kids of the chick who grew up with the Italians lol.

436 nyc redneck  Sun, Aug 24, 2008 8:00:18pm