Supposedly does not affect planes already in the air, CNN's Miles O'Brien says.

Being a Linux geek, I have to believe that it must've been a Microsoft server spitting out a BSOD.

What's Bush planning now?

/

Very Scary - always worried about this occurring with the banking system, too.

"No radar outages or lost contact with planes in the air"; just can't file new flight plans for now.

If it is out for days the effect will be huge

Fox - everything on east coast is full stop, Air Traffic Control can still communicate with planes in the air.

re: #6 Ojoe

If it is out for days the effect will be huge

I am awfully glad I'm not the poor slob trying to fix the computer with everyone from POTUS on down breathing down my neck!

The FAA - It's the Airborne DMV!

re: #2 MrSilverDragon

Being a Linux geek, I have to believe that it must've been a Microsoft server spitting out a BSOD.

Unless Microsoft existed in the 60s, I doubt that.

Why we send everything though two computers is beyond me. We have the technology now to avoid disasters like this.

CNN: Martian Fighting Machines Sighted near Grovers Mill, New Jersey

[just kidding]

Anybody got any spare vacuum tubes laying around? Send them to the FAA.

I blame George Bush!

/

Yikes, to put it mildly....

re: #12 Ward Cleaver

Anybody got any spare vacuum tubes laying around? Send them to the FAA.

That or hamster wheels.

Should have bought Macs.

re: #8 galloping granny

He will ask for a huge bonus.

Meanwhile the terminal restaurants will run out of bad pizzas.

BBL, to work I go.

It's Boooooshes fault!

/brain dead moonbat

re: #10 Honorary Yooper

Unless Microsoft existed in the 60s, I doubt that.

Why we send everything though two computers is beyond me. We have the technology now to avoid disasters like this.

Oh, I just needed to throw a jab at Billy G., that's all. ;)

...Global Warming Blamed.

Bah! Close enough for government work.

Lawhawk posted this at this link at this blog. The FAA is reporting ground delays for all major airports. It looks to be nationwide.

http://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/usmap.jsp

Brought to you by the same people who want to take over health care!

re: #2 MrSilverDragon

Or maybe their using iPhones

re: #24 oh_dude

THEY'RE

Immediate reaction from Homeland Security: It is not a terrorist attack.

At this point, I think that the White House could be filled with gun toting Muslims screaming Allah Akbar in homicidal glee, and Homeland Security would say: It is not a terrorist attack.

Republicans are trying to figure out how to blame this on the Democrat Party; The Democrat Party is trying to figure out how to blame this on the Republicans; The Progressives are blamig Government itself.

Epic Aviation Fail!

Screw this.

I'm inventing a flying car.

And taking orders on commuter jet packs.

re: #11 Occasional Reader

CNN: Martian Fighting Machines Sighted near Grovers Mill, New Jersey

LOL

CNN: Government States Weather Balloons Sighted Near Grovers Mlll, New Jersey

An ATC computer melt down was not IF, just when. They are running such a mish-mash of hardware it's amazing they kept it up for so long without a meltdown.

Why do I hate to fly comercially? Because it is no different than a Greyhound bus with wings. In other words, it really, really sucks. I'd rather drive 500 miles than fly 500 miles.

re: #26 shibumi

Immediate reaction from Homeland Security: It is not a terrorist attack.

At this point, I think that the White House could be filled with gun toting Muslims screaming Allah Akbar in homicidal glee, and Homeland Security would say: It is not a terrorist attack.

Did they say it's not a terrorist attack?

Or simply that there's no indication of such?

Dems: "If we weren't spending trillions on Iraq we could have upgraded the FAA"

Repubs: "If we weren't spending trillions on Social Programs we could have upgraded the FAA"

re: #22 jester6

Lawhawk posted this at this link at this blog. The FAA is reporting ground delays for all major airports. It looks to be nationwide.

http://www.fly.faa.gov/flyfaa/usmap.jsp

Anything affecting large areas in the Eastern US is going to ripple out here to the West. Even if the Western flight plan system is fine, planes on the ground in the East will prevent flights all over the place.

The United States must invest in it's rail system.

The present rail system is third world crap.

The answer is high speed Rail Travel!

re: #33 maddogg

Why do I hate to fly comercially? Because it is no different than a Greyhound bus with wings. In other words, it really, really sucks. I'd rather drive 500 miles than fly 500 miles.

I have not set foot on a plane in 5 years or so, since I flew United home from my daughters wedding out in NM and found myself stranded at the Denver airport for 5 days in a snowstorm - that United knew was grounding everything before they flew us in. They just didn't want to waive the fees to change the tickets.

Since then I have noticed that every single time there is a big snowstorm, United strands thousands in Denver - their central hub.

re: #28 Slumbering Behemoth

Epic Aviation Fail!

NTSB report...

According to the pilot, he was established on a base leg for runway 15 when the engine lost power. The pilot lined up with an adjacent road and continued for a forced landing. The pilot stated that prior to the landing he checked his carburetor heat, mixture, throttle, and magnetos in attempt to troubleshoot the power loss. He stated that he observed car lights and "swerved into [the] tree." The airplane became lodged in the tree, resulting in substantial damage. An examination of the engine and related systems revealed no anomalies. The routine aviation weather report reported, temperature minus 01 degrees Celsius (C); dewpoint, minus 05 degrees C. According to the carburetor icing probability chart conditions were conducive for "serious icing at glide power" and "serious icing at cruise power."

re: #37 Ben Hur

The United States must invest in it's rail system.

The present rail system is third world crap.

The answer is high speed Rail Travel!

Nice, but high-speed rail doesn't get you from Chicago to Vegas in 4 hours.

re: #33 maddogg

Why do I hate to fly comercially? Because it is no different than a Greyhound bus with wings. In other words, it really, really sucks. I'd rather drive 500 miles than fly 500 miles.

My flight threshold is about 1500 miles now, unless I really need to be there in less than 2 days.

in a 50's Madison Avenue voice: "Computers will make life in the 21st century for everyone almost work free. We'll be able to spend more leisure time with friends and family. Maybe even traveliing around the country in a personal flying-car."
/dude, where's my flying car?

re: #37 Ben Hur

So long as getting into the rail system means going downtown for most people, high-speed passenger rail is going nowhere.

re: #34 Cognito

Did they say it's not a terrorist attack?

Or simply that there's no indication of such?

No indication.

Am I the only one that LGF is screwed up on? Messed up all day. Weird colors, no refresh or partial refresh. New comments button hanging up and never stopping it's spinning. Sloooooooooow to load.

? ? ?

re: #37 Ben Hur

The United States must invest in it's rail system.

The present rail system is third world crap.

The answer is high speed Rail Travel!

Partially. But definitely not totally. We don't have the population density like western Europe to make nationwide high-speed rail cost effective. Some routes, like the Eastern Corridor, sure.

re: #2 MrSilverDragon

Being a Linux geek, I have to believe that it must've been a Microsoft server spitting out a BSOD.

I heard they're still using PDP-11's.

bush is doing this to keep the moonbats out of the twin cities and denver

moonbat off.

re: #39 galloping granny

United is, IMHO, the worst of the large US airlines. Just god-awful.

That said, you had really bad luck. I fly pretty frequently, and haven't had anything close to that nightmare.

re: #16 Halman

Should have bought MacsUnivacs.

Fixed.

re: #37 Ben Hur

The United States must invest in it's rail system.

The present rail system is third world crap.

The answer is high speed Rail Travel!

Imagine the number of jobs that would create.

re: #46 maddogg

Am I the only one that LGF is screwed up on? Messed up all day. Weird colors, no refresh or partial refresh. New comments button hanging up and never stopping it's spinning. Sloooooooooow to load.

? ? ?

Having some problems right now, as a matter of fact.

Will this ground the convention hooligans & trustafarians so they can't get back to their daytime jobs?

Cyberterror?

Norad better be working right now.

re: #54 alegrias

What daytime jobs?

re: #33 maddogg

Why do I hate to fly comercially? Because it is no different than a Greyhound bus with wings. In other words, it really, really sucks. I'd rather drive 500 miles than fly 500 miles.

One gets on the bus..then gets off the bus..one can spend more time with flight delays than it takes to go by land.

Interesting (and greatly refreshing) that the "usual suspects" haven't been knee-jerkingly blamed for this. (yet)

I'm flying Thursday. Hope they have it fixed.

re: #33 maddogg

Why do I hate to fly comercially? Because it is no different than a Greyhound bus with wings. In other words, it really, really sucks. I'd rather drive 500 miles than fly 500 miles.

How true. I drive now whenever I can. The system has massive delays, overcrowding & price gouging, plus all the hassle of fighting
through airport traffic.
To me the worst part is TSA Security. They want to perform security in the worse way & they do.

re: #46 maddogg

Am I the only one that LGF is screwed up on? Messed up all day. Weird colors, no refresh or partial refresh. New comments button hanging up and never stopping it's spinning. Sloooooooooow to load.

? ? ?

I like the colors. But otherwise- yeah. Slow on this end.

Windows Vista!

re: #50 Occasional Reader

United is, IMHO, the worst of the large US airlines. Just god-awful.

That said, you had really bad luck. I fly pretty frequently, and haven't had anything close to that nightmare.

Yeah, United is little better than a cesspool right now. Actually, I try to avoid anything going into or out of O'Hare. Midway is so much easier, almost always on-time, and damned convenient.

re: #50 Occasional Reader

United is, IMHO, the worst of the large US airlines. Just god-awful.

That said, you had really bad luck. I fly pretty frequently, and haven't had anything close to that nightmare.

I heard where some of their employees recently set up a Web site with the CEO's name in the domain name, and is asking passengers to log on and register their gripes.

re: #61 Sharmuta

I like the colors. But otherwise- yeah. Slow on this end.

I am guessing the zombie reports are generating a lot of traffic?

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So, this means that flights in the air are okay, but no new flights will be allowed to take off. It means that the PM rush is going to be a mess, and delays will persist because planes will not be able to get where they are needed for the AM.

re: #50 Occasional Reader

United is, IMHO, the worst of the large US airlines. Just god-awful.

That said, you had really bad luck. I fly pretty frequently, and haven't had anything close to that nightmare.

Do not fly United in the winter. This same thing has happened at least once every single winter since. Some winters several times. Oddly, they always seem to be so surprised. . . . .

a private business would have went bankrupt and out of business.

re: #52 Sharmuta

Imagine the number of jobs that would create.

Imagine the number of jobs that would be created if the Airlines, Airports, TSA, and Aviation support services were properly staffed.

re: #35 WrathofG-d

Dems: "If we weren't spending trillions on Iraq we could have upgraded the FAA"

Repubs: "If we weren't spending trillions on Social Programs we could have upgraded the FAA"

They're both at fault, but the problem goes back over 25 years.
From my post in another thread:
From what I saw (I was working at the Department of Transportation, Transportation Systems Center at the time), I'll be stepping on some toes here, but the decline started with the Reagan administration, which redirected that center, and I'm sure others, away from technology towards business support. Unfortunately, government doesn't know business; they should have stuck with technology. That was also the time Congress refused to fund the ATC replacement.

Also regarding replacing the system with a 21st century one:
No one wants to pay for it. The airlines complain that they can't afford the taxes; the government (justifiably) wants to cover it with user fees; business aviation doesn't want to pay as much as an airliner (even though each plane takes the same resources), and we get gridlock. Meanwhile, the rest of the world is moving to such a system, called ADS-B.

re: #62 astronmr20

Windows Vista!

Without Service Pack 1!

I thought we'd established Russia's planes & infrastructure were worse and flown by vodka-sodden people.

All this blame America first stuff...is NOT the change I seek!

re: #48 Alouette

I heard they're still using PDP-11's.

Actually, they're using custom machines emulating custom modified IBM 360 30's and 40's.

I don't want a flying car. We have enough things going SPLAT as it is...

#46 maddog
I've been having similar problems for weeks. Charles suggested checking my Java setting, but that didn't help. Then another poster described my condition almost exactly, and Charles said it sounded like a memory issue. I'm waiting to expand my memory.

re: #33 maddogg

Actually, I recall seiing a study not too long ago that statistically, its something like 260 times safer to fly from LA to New York versus driving.

The air is filled with highly-trained pilots (most of whom are ex-military).

On the road however, you've got every idiot who's got a pulse behind the wheel. Think about it.

If anyone here has ever worked with the FAA - you would why this doesn't happen weekly.

re: #56 joncelli

What daytime jobs?

* * *
Running the public schools & government of course.

This is what happens when you don't turn off your electronic devices when they tell you to.

re: #39 galloping granny

I have not set foot on a plane in 5 years or so, since I flew United home from my daughters wedding out in NM and found myself stranded at the Denver airport for 5 days

If that ever happens again, drop in on Charles. He's in the nitrogen-filled chamber on the Lower, Lower, Lower, Lower Level.

I wonder if it looks something like this?

re: #71 Kosh's Shadow

Very interesting. I wonder what we could buy if we stopped funding Egypt, Jordan, Africa, and the Phakestinians. (thus bankrupting Jordan, Egypt, and the Phakestinians, therefore allowing us to stop giving money to Israel)

re: #80 Ben Hur

I just hope someone up there in the sky knows how to speak jive.

Flight delays.
I blame the media.

re: #79 alegrias

Ah yes. Too bad we can't arrest the lot and accidentally put them in supermax. It would reduce waste and inefficiency immeasurably.

re: #84 WrathofG-d

I just hope someone up there in the sky knows how to speak jive.

ROFL!

OT from Ann Althouse:

The Clintons are lizard people...

re: #68 galloping granny

Do not fly United in the winter. This same thing has happened at least once every single winter since. Some winters several times. Oddly, they always seem to be so surprised. . . . .

That's a major problem with the hub-and-spoke system for airline flights. Everything goes into one of the airline's hubs, and if the hub shuts down, it shuts down a ton of flights. For example, United has two hubs: O'Hare and Denver. If one is shut down, it affects damn near everything.

That's why I think I like Southwest's system better. Several focus cities that get a larger percentage of the flights, but they're more spread out so problems in one city do not affect the entire system.

Recreate 68 is disappointed they didn't think to do this.

re: #77 oh_dude

Actually, I recall seiing a study not too long ago that statistically, its something like 260 times safer to fly from LA to New York versus driving.

The air is filled with highly-trained pilots (most of whom are ex-military).

On the road however, you've got every idiot who's got a pulse behind the wheel. Think about it.

Flying itself is very safe. Dealing with the frustration and aggravation that has become a part of commercial aviation for the public has stolen the joy from it.

As far as bad airlines go, I have to say that Northworst is quite the Hoover. Worst I've had, and I've had some bad ones. That said, Southwest put my connections 38 gates apart and gave me 15 minutes to make the connection, then landed 5 minutes late, at DFW no less. 38 gates is like a mile and a half.

re: #85 wee fury

Flight delays.
I blame the media.

Heck yes. Down with the flight-delaying MSM.

Making Sightseers Madder.

Remember the South Park episode where Mr. Garrison invented It!, the personal transport vehicle that was going to replace flying? Of course, you had to operate it by inserting a large metal rod where the sun don't shine, but it still beat dealing with the airlines.

re: #78 de La Valette

missed wonder

Any Flyertalking Lizards here?

re: #84 WrathofG-d

I just hope someone up there in the sky knows how to speak jive.

Surely you don't expect me to fly this plain without a flight plan!

re: #62 astronmr20

Windows Vista!

Top secret Boeing / Microsoft, Vista flight soft ware test photo.

re: #90 Sharmuta

Recreate 68 is disappointed they didn't think to do this.

Who says they didn't?

(Cue spooky music)

I told ya ManBearPig was real!

Now look at the trouble we have.....you should have listened.

ManBearPig did this and you're all blaming some computer.....we all know that's not the problem

I'm serial!

re: #84 WrathofG-d

I just hope someone up there in the sky knows how to speak jive.

Surely you can't be serious!

re: #90 Sharmuta

Recreate 68 is disappointed they didn't think to do this.

Anarchists don't believe in "systems," how are they going to crash one?

re: #101 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Surely you can't be serious!

Don't call me Shirley!

re: #98 jcm

That actually happened to a USN destroyer using a "glass" cockpit.

Aren't they a few days early screwing up the ATC system? I thought this might be a plan to keep the protesters out of St. Paul next week.

Ot,
Don Imus voting for McCain. Says obama empty suit and phoney.

re: #97 jill e

Surely you don't expect me to fly this plain without a flight plan!

PIMF plane!

re: #89 Honorary Yooper

That's a major problem with the hub-and-spoke system for airline flights. Everything goes into one of the airline's hubs, and if the hub shuts down, it shuts down a ton of flights. For example, United has two hubs: O'Hare and Denver. If one is shut down, it affects damn near everything.

That's why I think I like Southwest's system better. Several focus cities that get a larger percentage of the flights, but they're more spread out so problems in one city do not affect the entire system.

Not only that ,but they use the same model aircraft all over the system. Parts are always available.

re: #102 jcm

No. They just rage against the machine.

re: #106 newsjunkie_ky

Ot,
Don Imus voting for McCain. Says obama empty suit and phoney.

It took him this long to decide?

/the I-man is gettin' slow.

re: #77 oh_dude

Actually, I recall seiing a study not too long ago that statistically, its something like 260 times safer to fly from LA to New York versus driving.

The air is filled with highly-trained pilots (most of whom are ex-military).

On the road however, you've got every idiot who's got a pulse behind the wheel. Think about it.

I would sacrifice quite a bit of safety to get around the bullshit they put you through. To prevent terrorism, forget the TSA and issue everyone who wants one a shotgun. Then come and go according to schedule. Then, if the weather is bad, sign a release absolving the airline of responsibility if your kilt in transit due to crappy weather. Easy maddogg solutions. Yer welcome!

re: #106 newsjunkie_ky

Ot,
Don Imus voting for McCain. Says obama empty suit and phoney.

Now they'll put him in an institution.

re: #83 WrathofG-d

Very interesting. I wonder what we could buy if we stopped funding Egypt, Jordan, Africa, and the Phakestinians. (thus bankrupting Jordan, Egypt, and the Phakestinians, therefore allowing us to stop giving money to Israel)

On Leno last night, McCain mentioned the concept of stopping aid to people who hate us. Can't say I disagree.

re: #104 de La Valette

That actually happened to a USN destroyer using a "glass" cockpit.

That's why the Navy keeps the U.S.S. Constitution on active duty - just in case shit like this happens.

re: #106 newsjunkie_ky

Ot,
Don Imus voting for McCain. Says obama empty suit and phoney.

* * *
source please!

re: #97 jill e

A flight plan?
Uh, oh...what is it?
...

re: #105 CyanSnowHawk

Dry run. Just testing. (shhhhhhhhh)

re: #113 shibumi

On Leno last night, McCain mentioned the concept of stopping aid to people who hate us. Can't say I disagree.

Finally, some Rudy-Guilani diplomacy.

re: #108 opnion

Why choose two hubs frequently effected by weather?

re: #115 alegrias

* * *
source please!

On Fox now.

re: #108 opnion

Not only that ,but they use the same model aircraft all over the system. Parts are always available.

I've always thought, that if I had an airline, I'd try to use as few different models of planes as possible in order to maximize economy on parts and technician know-how. It's rediculous how many different models of aircraft some of the major airlines have. If they cut back to say 3 different models at most, they could save a ton of money, IMHO.

re: #113 shibumi

What an amazing concept. Glad it took so long to come up with it.
/psych

The FAA has had antiquated equipment for decades now.....still moving slips of paper across the desk......

re: #114 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

It the backup plan for after the big EMP attack the Iranians have planned.

It sounds like the glitch occurred in Atlanta, the center of all aviation fuckery. And I say that with love, as a local. I just hope they get this fixed before my daughter has to fly out on Saturday.

Cyber -terror!....

or not.

re: #115 alegrias
He just said it on Cavuto's show.

re: #111 maddogg

I
would sacrifice quite a bit of safety to get around the bullshit they
put you through. To prevent terrorism, forget the TSA and issue
everyone who wants one a shotgun. Then come and go according to
schedule. Then, if the weather is bad, sign a release absolving the
airline of responsibility if your kilt in transit due to crappy
weather. Easy maddogg solutions. Yer welcome!

It's Bat Day!

Language NSFW

re: #121 Honorary Yooper

I've always thought, that if I had an airline, I'd try to use as few different models of planes as possible in order to maximize economy on parts and technician know-how. It's rediculous how many different models of aircraft some of the major airlines have. If they cut back to say 3 different models at most, they could save a ton of money, IMHO.

I'm not sure that would work. You'd have to run half-empty planes some days on some routes, and run twice as many full planes elsewhere...

re: #34 Cognito

Naaa, this system has been junk for years

PS I fly planes for fun.

re: #120 Cognito

On Fox now.

* * *

Thank you. McCain used to be on Imus a lot, in the 1990s, before his 2000 run for president.

re: #119 de La Valette

Why choose two hubs frequently effected by weather?

Because United is stupid.

re: #125 doppelganglander

It sounds like the glitch occurred in Atlanta, the center of all aviation fuckery. And I say that with love, as a local. I just hope they get this fixed before my daughter has to fly out on Saturday.

"aviation fuckery."

Sounds about right.

re: #12 Ward Cleaver

Anybody got any spare vacuum tubes laying around? Send them to the FAA.

The FAA is known for using very old stuff. Never can find the time or expertise to upgrade/integrate new tech. NASA has the same problem.

re: #112 Ward Cleaver

Yikes, kiss of death. 0-:

re: #121 Honorary Yooper

I've always thought, that if I had an airline, I'd try to use as few different models of planes as possible in order to maximize economy on parts and technician know-how. It's rediculous how many different models of aircraft some of the major airlines have. If they cut back to say 3 different models at most, they could save a ton of money, IMHO.

But then there's the cost of fuel, the cost of labor, and every businessman's favorite- the cost of insurance. Don't forget the cost of complying with government regulations.

re: #132 Honorary Yooper

I guess, at some point somebody has to look at the cost involved.

Unfortunately I have to fly them overseas a lot.

re: #101 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Surely you can't be serious!

I'm serious, and don't call me Shirley.

re: #113 shibumi

On Leno last night, McCain mentioned the concept of stopping aid to people who hate us. Can't say I disagree.

We're cutting off Federal dollars to San Francisco? 'Bout damn time!

re: #129 Cognito

I'm not sure that would work. You'd have to run half-empty planes some days on some routes, and run twice as many full planes elsewhere...

Well, it seems to work better for SWA now than using a ton of different models works for AA or UAL. Just shift planes around to busier routes, and have fewer fights on slower routes.

re: #121 Honorary Yooper

I've always thought, that if I had an airline, I'd try to use as few different models of planes as possible in order to maximize economy on parts and technician know-how. It's rediculous how many different models of aircraft some of the major airlines have. If they cut back to say 3 different models at most, they could save a ton of money, IMHO.

It's just common sense. Southwest has a great business model.
Get people from point A to point B, economicaly with no frills.
Fill em up, & tell the truth about delays

re: #130 Dustoff-507

Naaa, this system has been junk for years

PS I fly planes for fun.

That's what I was getting at -- I have a hard time believing this was an attack of some sort, when there's plent of antiquation and incompetence to go around.

re: #134 Quintus_Arius

Not quite. They has installed other systems that in the end sucked. so they went back to the old hand crank models. (-:

re: #134 Quintus_Arius

The FAA is known for using very old stuff. Never can find the time or expertise to upgrade/integrate new tech. NASA has the same problem.

* * *
Don't you wish you could earmark your tax dollars to agencies you liked!

( & not one red cent to others?)

re: #134 Quintus_Arius

Slightly different problem at NASA. At NASA the vacuum tubes either outperform the digital stuff or are parts of unique things that no one can afford to replace.

The FAA has just repeated screwed up their modernization plans.

re: #109 lawhawk

No. They just rage against the machine.

That's the anarchists favorite band.

re: #11 Occasional Reader

CNN: Martian Fighting Machines Sighted near Grovers Mill, New Jersey

Update: The Machines, They're a Dud, All Stuck in the Mud, Somewhere in the Swamps of Jersey

re: #121 Honorary Yooper

I've always thought, that if I had an airline, I'd try to use as few different models of planes as possible in order to maximize economy on parts and technician know-how. It's rediculous how many different models of aircraft some of the major airlines have. If they cut back to say 3 different models at most, they could save a ton of money, IMHO.

Different sorts of aircraft are necessary for different types of flights.

You would want to run a 200-passenger carrying 767 for a typical short 30 passenger commercial flight.

Also, standardization of aircraft within a fleet would mean that airlines wouldn't be able to acquire cheap aircraft other than the model within their fleet, increasing (not decreasing) overall costs.

re: #106 newsjunkie_ky

Funny how the MSM will make a huge issue out of Imus endorsing McCain, but I have yet to year a single word from them on the cozy Obama/Ayers relationship....

A similar glitch like the one today occurred last year.

re: #142 Cognito

OK

re: #140 Honorary Yooper

Well, it seems to work better for SWA now than using a ton of different models works for AA or UAL. Just shift planes around to busier routes, and have fewer fights on slower routes.

If I understand the model, that's why SWA only flies to limited cities. Seems like a variation in cities = a variation in size of aircraft.

But honestly I'm just making this up as I go.

re: #147 Occasional Reader

Update: The Machines, They're a Dud, All Stuck in the Mud, Somewhere in the Swamps of Jersey

Tony Soprano and the boys got to 'em first. They never had a chance.

re: #74 Kosh's Shadow

Actually, they're using custom machines emulating custom modified IBM 360 30's and 40's.

That's what I was afraid of. The last I heard they were still using equipment with vacuum tubes.

re: #154 lawhawk

Tony Soprano and the boys got to 'em first. They never had a chance.

They disrespected The Bing.

re: #104 de La Valette

That actually happened to a USN destroyer using a "glass" cockpit.

This crash was software.
The plane is complete fly by wire and will over rule the pilot if he commands a maneuver outside the software parameters. This case the plan was doing a slow gear down flyby, when the pilot pulled the stick (airbus uses a side stick) the software decide he was flaring for landing and cut power. If the pilot had hit the "go around button" the plane would have responded in the manner he desired. But the software designers never thought of a low slow gear down flyby.

Boeing allows pilot over rides knowing there are situations so off the book no program can anticipate them.

Has anybdy considered that we are probably being lied to?
I think that all of those planes are just gone, like some big Bermuda Triangle thing. Yeah, thats it. Thats the ticket.

re: #141 opnion

It's just common sense. Southwest has a great business model.
Get people from point A to point B, economicaly with no frills.
Fill em up, & tell the truth about delays

Actually Southwest's success it largely due to something else: They essentially locked in their fuel costs long ago, while everybody else got screwed on oil prices.

Ergo, their tickets are cheaper and they don't have to skimp on basic service.

Clinton's in Denver.. Obama?.. is he in Denver.. will he be able to fly there before the big statium gig?.. maybe in spirit of party unity.. Hillary can give his acceptance speech for him.. MuHaHaHa

re: #151 lawhawk

Yep, this has been going on for a long time. )-:

And the part about the FAA = DMV. I think the DMV wins that one for being a tad bet better.

re: #130 Dustoff-507

Naaa, this system has been junk for years

PS I fly planes for fun.

Did you can't my reply to your last, last thread...

IFR the only way to fly...
I Follow River... Road... Railroad.

Fear not, Cindy McCain can fly her own plane! That's one can-do American who loves her country.

re: #163 alegrias

Fear not, Cindy McCain can fly her own plane! That's one can-do American who loves her country.

And she'll bring the beer.

re: #150 Fenway_Nation

Funny how the MSM will make a huge issue out of Imus endorsing McCain, but I have yet to year a single word from them on the cozy Obama/Ayers relationship....

Because they love Ayers, too.

re: #153 Cognito

If I understand the model, that's why SWA only flies to limited cities. Seems like a variation in cities = a variation in size of aircraft.

But honestly I'm just making this up as I go.

Fine. I'm gonna stop taking notes.

re: #150 Fenway_Nation

Funny how the MSM will make a huge issue out of Imus endorsing McCain, but I have yet to year a single word from them on the cozy Obama/Ayers relationship....

Yo, White Sox/Red Sox next week at Fenway.
Huge for both teams. Ya got tickets?

re: #136 Sharmuta

But then there's the cost of fuel, the cost of labor, and every businessman's favorite- the cost of insurance. Don't forget the cost of complying with government regulations.

Well, with fewer models, you can better estimate the amount of fuel needed (one savings). You can cut down the cost of labor by having techs know their planes better with fewer models, and thus, they can fix them faster. You can also make the insurance more consistent due to fewer models. Parts become cheaper because you can buy more in bulk due to having mostly the same aircraft. Pilots also become better and more knowledgable due to more familiarity with the aircraft, and can switch aircraft quickly (as they can go from one to another without switching models).

Why do you think most police forces or taxi companies use one model of car? It makes it easier to use, faster to fix, and cheaper to get parts for, and you only need to train for that one model.

re: #145 de La Valette

Slightly different problem at NASA. At NASA the vacuum tubes either outperform the digital stuff or are parts of unique things that no one can afford to replace.

The FAA has just repeated screwed up their modernization plans.

I wouldn't be surprised it was because they got rid of a lot of technical people in the 1980's, and let the govt managers run the place.

Or it was just because of the way the government is. When I was at what is now the Volpe transportation systems center, they had a RIF (government for layoff). One engineer had been working on a system to allow private pilots to file flight plans with touch-tone phones. He had no seniority, so he was bumped by someone 6 months from retirement, who hadn't done engineering since the vacuum tube days. That was the end of that project.
I was real glad to get out of government work, but I have to say I've been in companies almost as bad. My current one doesn't buy support contracts, or repair broken equipment unless it really gets in the way.

re: #147 Occasional Reader

Update: The Machines, They're a Dud, All Stuck in the Mud, Somewhere in the Swamps of Jersey

Update: Martians surrender, request reconstruction aid.

re: #106 newsjunkie_ky

Ot,
Don Imus voting for McCain. Says obama empty suit and phoney.

Imus was supporting McCain all the way back in 2000. Imus claims he voted for McCain (write-in) in Nov. 2000.
If he backed Obama in '08, he would be deserving of the Weasel of the Century Award !

re: #144 alegrias

* * *
Don't you wish you could earmark your tax dollars to agencies you liked!

( & not one red cent to others?)

Unfortunately I suspect America would end up with an enormous and wealthy Dept. of Porn Distribution.

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

I've taken Greyhound, Amtrack and I've flown a couple different carriers. I love flying, but that's in my blood. The train was fun- spent the entire trip drinking in the lounge car. The bus sucks.

re: #159 Cognito

Actually Southwest's success it largely due to something else: They essentially locked in their fuel costs long ago, while everybody else got screwed on oil prices.

Ergo, their tickets are cheaper and they don't have to skimp on basic service.

They bought fuel ledges at fire sale prices from other airlines that needed the cash. Their fuel costs are very low.

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

It's worse than a Greyhound bus. At least on the bus you can take a fifth to keep you company.

or a blade wielding cannibal freak

re: #159 Cognito

Actually Southwest's success it largely due to something else: They essentially locked in their fuel costs long ago, while everybody else got screwed on oil prices.

Ergo, their tickets are cheaper and they don't have to skimp on basic service.

Yes they did. How smart does that look now?

re: #154 lawhawk

Tony Soprano and the boys got to 'em first. They never had a chance.

Actually, their tires got slashed, and they almost crashed, but the Good Lord had mercy.

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

It's worse than a Greyhound bus. At least on the bus you can take a fifth to keep you company.

Actually, you can't. Federal motor carrier regulations forbid it.

Science!

;) snark

re: #148 buzzsawmonkey

It's worse than a Greyhound bus. At least on the bus you can take a fifth to keep you company.

Yes, thats true on a Greyhound. But don't get too loaded, cause you still have to deal with the bums and perverts in the bus station restroom.
When I was 17, I traveled from Arkansas to Southern California and back on the bus.......

re: #168 Honorary Yooper

Why do you think most police forces or taxi companies use one model of car? It makes it easier to use, faster to fix, and cheaper to get parts for, and you only need to train for that one model.

I thought it was because they had a contract with Ford. :P

re: #162 jcm

LOL, yep I do that too.

re: #119 de La Valette

Why choose two hubs frequently effected by weather?

The Union told them everything would be okay.

[Link: michelleobamasuicidewatch.blogspot.com...]

I'm worried. She was way too bubbly and carefree last night, just like lots of suicide victims get once they finally make up their minds to just get it over with.

re: #149 looking closely

Different sorts of aircraft are necessary for different types of flights.

You would want to run a 200-passenger carrying 767 for a typical short 30 passenger commercial flight.

Also, standardization of aircraft within a fleet would mean that airlines wouldn't be able to acquire cheap aircraft other than the model within their fleet, increasing (not decreasing) overall costs.

Some aircraft use common systems. For example, the 757 and 767 are similar, and the 777 is not that different. All the Airbus aircraft have similarities.
But it makes it harder for a manufacturer to advance technology, because it makes a break from their previous models.

Windfall Profits!

Southwest Airlines posts quarterly profit
Updated 7/24/2008
NEW YORK (Reuters) - Southwest Airlines, which has a history of successfully hedging against high fuel costs, posted a higher-than-expected quarterly profit Thursday despite sky-high oil prices.
Southwest said second-quarter net income rose to $321 million, or 44 cents a share, from $278 million, or 36 cents per share, a year earlier. Quarterly revenue rose 11.1% to $2.9 billion.
Southwest Chief Executive Gary Kelly said Southwest had the flexibility to adjust its schedule to eliminate unproductive flights and that the company planned to increase its year-over-year available seat mile (ASM) capacity no more than 4% in 2008.
Southwest is evaluating its current fleet plans and may not expand its ASM capacity in 2009, Kelly said.

re: #184 garycooper

That's a little morbid.

re: #8 galloping granny

I am awfully glad I'm not the poor slob trying to fix the computer with everyone from POTUS on down breathing down my neck!

first they have to find someone who remembers ADA and how to write the code.

re: #164 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

re: #163 alegrias

Fear not, Cindy McCain can fly her own plane! That's one can-do American who loves her country.

And she'll bring the beer.

I so wish she were my older sister.

re: #182 Dustoff-507

LOL, yep I do that too.

You got your own puddle jumper? My dad had a Taylorcraft eons ago, I got most of the way while in the AF at the Flying club on base, didn't finish before I got out and couldn't afford it anymore.

re: #155 Son of the Black Dog

That's what I was afraid of. The last I heard they were still using equipment with vacuum tubes.

No, those were transistorized, and the plug-compatible replacements use integrated circuits, but certainly nothing current. I'd guess ECL and maybe the old AMD 2900 series bit slices. I'm talking 1980's technology.

re: #189 doppelganglander

I so wish she were my older sister.

She'd be a better sister than barry is a brother.

re: #174 Ward Cleaver

They bought fuel ledges at fire sale prices from other airlines that needed the cash. Their fuel costs are very low.

That, and they actually do one thing that is lacking at UAL, AA, NWA, etc. Customer service. Customer service will save your company's ass even if prices shoot through the roof.

re: #167 opnion

Nope- I originally planned to catch the series on the south side earlier this month and maybe slip to the north side to catch the Cubs/Cards at some point the same weekend, but scrapped those plans to visit my grandfather on his 89th birthday in Upstate NY as well as a trip to Cooperstown, the July 4th BoSox/Yankees game @ Yankee stadium and the Sox/Twins series at Fenway the following week...as well as the [disastrous] Angels/Red Sox series in Anaheim right after the all-star break. Not that I'm complaining, but I wouldn't mind another trip to Chicago to see the Red Sox.

I bet GE has a solution to this problem....

re: #192 Sharmuta

She'd be a better sister than barry is a brother.

George? Is that you?

re: #192 Sharmuta

She'd be a better sister than barry is a brother.

* * *
Cindy McCain is in the country of Georgia right now, hopefully putting the fear of McCain into Putin...

She can be a steel magnolia.

re: #187 Cognito

That's a little morbid.

Darn...I was aiming for a "lot morbid."

re: #192 Sharmuta

She'd be a better sister than barry is a brother.

Barry is only a half-brother ...

/racist!

re: #157 jcm

Boeing allows pilot over rides knowing there are situations so off the book no program can anticipate them.

That gives the difference between US and European philosophy - the system overrides the individual in Europe, but the individual (pilot) overrides the system in the US.

Well, if this FAA mess doesn't get cleaned up soon I may be stranded for Labor Day.

/Don't cry for me. Aruba ain't such a bad spot.

re: #160 BingoBunny

Actually, this was planned to keep all of the Hilary delegates from getting to the convention on time for the roll call vote.

This was all a plot by ChimpyMcHilterRoveMcMansion.

Didn't you get the memo?

No worries though, Barack can catch a Greyhound out of Kansas City. Think of all the carbon he would save!

re: #184 garycooper

That's in really poor taste.

re: #150 Fenway_Nation
Agree! They'll say he won't vote for obama because he is a racist.

I'm grateful not to have to fly right now. Think of the human cost of these disruptions to our country.

re: #181 Sharmuta

I thought it was because they had a contract with Ford. :P

Heh. They evaluate what best fits their need, and buy an entire fleet rather than fooling around with a mess of cars. Right now, there's three that fit the bill: Ford Crown Vic, Dodge Charger, and the FWD Chevy Impala. Not to mention the SUVs out there.

re: #74 Kosh's Shadow

Actually, they're using custom machines emulating custom modified IBM 360 30's and 40's.

Don't they know they have to clear core before they boot up one of those puppies?

/and do not bend fold or mutilate

re: #205 doppelganglander

That's in really poor taste.

* * *
Amen.

re: #149 looking closely

Different sorts of aircraft are necessary for different types of flights.

You would want to run a 200-passenger carrying 767 for a typical short 30 passenger commercial flight.

Also, standardization of aircraft within a fleet would mean that airlines wouldn't be able to acquire cheap aircraft other than the model within their fleet, increasing (not decreasing) overall costs.

Although, for an Airline like Southwest, it works very well. They standardized on the Boeing 737 from the start.

re: #170 The Other Les

Update: Martians surrender, request reconstruction aid.

We'll send them the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild their canals.

More threats from Obama re: the Ayers commercial

re: #212 Kosh's Shadow

We'll send them the Army Corps of Engineers to rebuild their canals.

We'll be welcomed as liberators! Plump, juicy, delicious liberators!

re: #192 Sharmuta

She'd be a better sister than barry is a brother.

Ouch! Now, Michelle would probably make a terrible sister -- her house is way nicer than mine and she'd never let me forget it. She'd also make sure I knew her kids are smarter than mine and she's thinner and a better cook.

re: #33 maddogg

Why do I hate to fly comercially? Because it is no different than a Greyhound bus with wings. In other words, it really, really sucks. I'd rather drive 500 miles than fly 500 miles.

So would I, and I've actually done it several times, as recently as this year.

Total time of trip is *usually* longer with the drive, but not by as much as you might think, if you consider transportation time to and from the airport, layover time in between, necessity to go through security check and retrieve luggage, and car rental time on arrival (if necessary).

Driving, though, has other major advantages, including the ability to leave exactly when you like, stop for refreshment when you like (and eat whatever you like), and take anything you like along with you (including non-small items, liquid items, or even other passengers). Cost is usually better driving too.

re: #188 Eowyn2

first they have to find someone who remembers ADA and how to write the code.

IBM 360 assembly language. No source code, patches on top of patches on top of patches, and maybe different in different sites.

re: #189 doppelganglander

I so wish she were my older sister.

I heard one commentator say, "In this election, you have a lawyer married to another lawyer running against a fighter pilot war hero who's married to a hot blonde who owns a beer distributorship. How is this even close?"

re: #208 Honorary Yooper

Heh. They evaluate what best fits their need, and buy an entire fleet rather than fooling around with a mess of cars. Right now, there's three that fit the bill: Ford Crown Vic, Dodge Charger, and the FWD Chevy Impala. Not to mention the SUVs out there.

I think at some point in the 1990s, the California Highway Patrol was experimenting with Volvo sedans (I think this was before the Ford takeover, too).

When I was in the Army, I went to a torch relay event for the '96 Olympics in Hinesville. I distinctly remember seeing a marked Georgia State Patrol BMW accompanying the runner...

Remember what John Glenn said he was thinking about when waiting for them to light the candle on Friendship 7?
One million parts, each built by the lowest bidder.

re: #203 de La Valette

Actually, this was planned to keep all of the Hilary delegates from getting to the convention on time for the roll call vote.

I read this morning they were going to vote over breakfast and the floor vote was going to be a show.

re: #204 Typicalwhitey

This was all a plot by ChimpyMcHilterRoveMcMansion.

Didn't you get the memo?

No worries though, Barack can catch a Greyhound out of Kansas City. Think of all the carbon he would save!

"Who needs oil, we ride the bus!"

re: #214 Occasional Reader

We'll be welcomed as liberators! Plump, juicy, delicious liberators!

Now, you know the Martians only want to serve Man.

re: #218 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

I heard one commentator say, "In this election, you have a lawyer married to another lawyer running against a fighter pilot war hero who's married to a hot blonde who owns a beer distributorship. How is this even close?"

Was the commentator using a phony Irish brogue? That could've been me.....

re: #217 Kosh's Shadow

What ever happened to Free Flight ATC?

re: #185 Kosh's Shadow

Ahhhh no... not quite. The 757 is more like a streched 737. The 767 holds around 290 people and flying long distance the 777 flys very long distance hold over 300+
That's some of the difference, but it would take to long to type it all

*****BREAKING*****

The ATC computer crash source found!

re: #225 de La Valette

What ever happened to Free Flight ATC?

Based on ADS-B now, I believe. The FAA actually does have a plan to require it in the next 10 years or so, but who knows how long it will stay on schedule.

re: #221 Sharmuta

Over Breakfast. I seem to misplaced my Robert's Rules of Order - but I don't recall a section on deciding between the next leader of the free world or orange juice.

Coming in late to the thread, and for just a few minutes.

Has anyone determined just how old the on-the-fritz part of the system is?

re: #226 Dustoff-507

Ahhhh no... not quite. The 757 is more like a streched 737. The 767 holds around 290 people and flying long distance the 777 flys very long distance hold over 300+
That's some of the difference, but it would take to long to type it all

The 757 and 767 have similar cockpits so pilots can easily receive certification for both.

re: #228 buzzsawmonkey

Don't know what that is, but for some reason I get a "forbidden."

Slightly different version.

re: #89 Honorary Yooper

That's a major problem with the hub-and-spoke system for airline flights. Everything goes into one of the airline's hubs, and if the hub shuts down, it shuts down a ton of flights. For example, United has two hubs: O'Hare and Denver. If one is shut down, it affects damn near everything.

That's why I think I like Southwest's system better. Several focus cities that get a larger percentage of the flights, but they're more spread out so problems in one city do not affect the entire system.

Those are their non-coastal hubs, but UAL also has hubs in SFO, LAX and IAD (Dulles). Being in the Bay Area I've had to use them a lot, with just an occasional problem. I've heard horror stories about all of the legacy airlines, and I'm not convinced any of them are worse than any of the others. Continental may be a hair better than the others, but their presence in these parts is very limited.

SWA is fine for short flights but their open seating and minimal service I find problematic for longer flights or when plane changes are involved.

re: #211 CyanSnowHawk

Although, for an Airline like Southwest, it works very well. They standardized on the Boeing 737 from the start.

If all you do is one kind of flight, then sure, it makes perfect sense to have one kind of plane.

Not so good (say) if you have to run the same kind of plane from Wash DC to NYC as Wash DC to Addis Ababa!

re: #217 Kosh's Shadow

IBM 360 assembly language. No source code, patches on top of patches on top of patches, and maybe different in different sites.

I remember trying to learn 360 Assembler. They finally told me to stick to FORTRAN and COBOL.

re: #213 Fat Jolly Penguin

More threats from Obama re: the Ayers commercial

HA! Good luck trying to shut Harold Simmons up. Good to see he's still kicking; it's been a long time since I've seen Simmons' name in print.

re: #232 Kosh's Shadow

Not sure about that... Boeing has been working on the same type cockpits for years. (the airlines want it) The 767 is a heavy the 757 is not. if you've noticed 757 is gone and replaced by the 737-800/900

re: #234 jcm

Slightly different version.

Also forbidden.

re: #194 Fenway_Nation

Nope- I originally planned to catch the series on the south side earlier this month and maybe slip to the north side to catch the Cubs/Cards at some point the same weekend, but scrapped those plans to visit my grandfather on his 89th birthday in Upstate NY as well as a trip to Cooperstown, the July 4th BoSox/Yankees game @ Yankee stadium and the Sox/Twins series at Fenway the following week...as well as the [disastrous] Angels/Red Sox series in Anaheim right after the all-star break. Not that I'm complaining, but I wouldn't mind another trip to Chicago to see the Red Sox.

I don't think that the Red Sox come back to Chicgao this season?
having the Cards & Red Sox in town at the same time was a big deal.
The White Sox need to hold off the Twins, or it is a fight with
Boston for the Wild Card.
In my humble opinion, whichever American League team gets there should win the World Series.

re: #234 jcm

LOL ok you.

re: #111 maddogg

HA HA! Sign me up!

re: #239 Dustoff-507

Not sure about that... Boeing has been working on the same type cockpits for years. (the airlines want it) The 767 is a heavy the 757 is not. if you've noticed 757 is gone and replaced by the 737-800/900

The 757 and 767 were the first with the new cockpit. The 737-NG's (I think -700 up) use it as well.

re: #228 buzzsawmonkey

Don't know what that is, but for some reason I get a "forbidden."

re: #228 buzzsawmonkey

Don't know what that is, but for some reason I get a "forbidden."

Me too. Not allowed in.

Waiting for the FBI to be called in to pronounce that the event was not related to terrorism.

re: #241 opnion

"In my humble opinion, whichever American League team gets there should win the World Series."

You of course are refering to my Angels right? :-)

re: #234 jcm

Slightly different version.

ALSO" FORBIDDEN 403

re: #240 neocon hippie

Also forbidden.

BAH!

Picture of a big tangle of reel to reel tape.....

re: #239 Dustoff-507

if you've noticed 757 is gone

As of when? I've been on 757s within the last year or so.

re: #207 alegrias

I'm grateful not to have to fly right now. Think of the human cost of these disruptions to our country.

the free hotels and dinners?

re: #248 So?

ALSO" FORBIDDEN 403

midgetamputeegoatpr()n

re: #241 opnion

I don't think that the Red Sox come back to Chicgao this season?
having the Cards & Red Sox in town at the same time was a big deal.
The White Sox need to hold off the Twins, or it is a fight with
Boston for the Wild Card.

They don't come back to Chicago this year- at least in the regular season. Way back in 2005, I went to see the Red Sox play the Cubs at Wrigley and the Cards at the old Busch stadium.

I stopped paying attention to the Yankees in the division standings and started paying closer attention to the Twins position in the Wild Card standings last week.

Looks like I'll be rooting for the Mariners and Blue Jays this week....

re: #250 Occasional Reader

As of when? I've been on 757s within the last year or so.

Production has ceased, the 757 will be airborne with airlines for awhile. Dustoff is Boeing, gone as in gone for the factory floor.

re: #250 Occasional Reader

Boeing stop building them what 3 years ago. Replaced by the 737-800/900.

re: #254 jcm

Production has ceased, the 757 will be airborne with airlines for awhile. Dustoff is Boeing, gone as in gone for the factory floor.

Hell, the airlines still have DC-10s out there, and its been out of production for how long!?!

re: #205 doppelganglander

Thank you!

re: #250 Occasional Reader

As of when? I've been on 757s within the last year or so.

No longer in production.

Well, the media reports are not making it clear, but I was working (Air Traffic Controller) when this started, and its a pain in the ass for us, but it doesn't effect air traffic other then delays.

Flight plans can still get into the system (at least as of when my shift ended, but at that time I thought it was only the northeast that was effected), but they need to be entered by the tower controllers at the airports. As you can imagine, this creates a giant bottle neck... It takes a good minute or two to enter a flight plan if you know exactly what all the identifiers are (hint if you are a pilot and going to try and fly now, calmly give the clearance delivery guy the phonetic spelling of all the navaids along your route ;) ).

Now it wouldn't surprise me that they are issuing ground stops since at an airport with say, 100 operations an hour, there is a huge line waiting to get there clearances.

But yeah, there is a reason we call it the Failed Aviation Administration :D

re: #259 Rufi

So far NWA has only one flight delayed out of the East Coast and that is international EWR - AMS. Currently at 65 minutes delayed.

Thats impressive on NWAs part... I consider it news worthy when any flight escapes or departs to EWR without a massive delay :P

Especially North West "Still waiting on my numbers!" Airlines :P

re: #219 Fenway_Nation

When I was in the Army, I went to a torch relay event for the '96 Olympics in Hinesville. I distinctly remember seeing a marked Georgia State Patrol BMW accompanying the runner...

While driving down I-85 through Georgia in the '70's, I got passed by one of the GSP's 7-Liter Mustang pursuit cars. I was doing 80, and he went by like I was literally standing still.

re: #40 jcm

Had to step out for a while, so you'll probably miss this, but:

Is that the actual report for the photo I linked? If so, that's pretty cool that you tracked it down.