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Sarah Palin and Creationism

Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 1:15:58 pm PDT

LGF readers are probably aware that I am no creationist; in fact, I am strongly opposed to the teaching of “intelligent design” or “creation science,” or any other name the advocates for creationism concoct in their relentless quest to promote pseudo-science.

So I was disturbed to learn of Sarah Palin’s apparent support for creationism. However, as I posted in a comment earlier, she does not appear to be the fanatical type who wants to force or sneak the teaching of creationism into public school science classrooms.

But this is going to be a point of attack for the left, as Wired Magazine’s Brandon Keim demonstrates in this article: McCain’s VP Wants Creationism Taught in School.

Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin wants creationism taught in science classes.

In a 2006 gubernatorial debate, the soon-to-be governor of Alaska trotted out the usual creationist education canard: “Teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of education. Healthy debate is so important, and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.”

Teaching evolution and creationism in a scientifically balanced way is simply impossible. Evolution is accepted by scientists as driving the development of life on Earth. Creationism, which puts a (Christian) God in the engine room of life, is unsupported by science. Its arguments have been roundly dismissed by scientists — many of whom, it should be noted, believe in God. They’re just sensible enough to understand where science ends and religion begins.

This is all true as far as it goes, but it’s a bit dishonest of Keim not to quote the rest of Palin’s statements in the article he linked: ‘Creation science’ enters the race.

In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:

“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum.

Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

Looks like Palin made an off-the-cuff statement during a debate on a hot topic, didn’t really expect the criticism she’d get, and then softened her position considerably in a follow-up interview. But to quote just the first part of her statements on creationism and ignore the second is misleading; because in the clarification she’s describing a position that doesn’t cause me (a staunch anti-creationist) any discomfort.

839 comments

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1 JohnnyReb  8/29/08 1:18:13 pm reply quote

I don't think it will be an issue. What they will attack and with vigor are her anti-abortion beliefs.

2 Catttt  8/29/08 1:19:00 pm reply quote

Thank you for your thoughtful response, Charles. I have been educated on this topic because of you, and I put a good deal of weight on your opinion on it.

Truth to tell, based on Gov. Palin's response, I think even more of her.

3 joncelli  8/29/08 1:19:10 pm reply quote

Okay. We can put our minds at (some) ease about the creationism question, bring this up if the left tries to throw it at her, and keep going. It is a relief that she's got the right attitude toward separation of church and state.

4 jcm  8/29/08 1:19:40 pm reply quote

re: #1 JohnnyReb

I don't think it will be an issue. What they will attack and with vigor are her anti-abortion beliefs.

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

5 mbruce  8/29/08 1:20:33 pm reply quote

At this point, whatever system brought us this fabulous VPILF is alright by me. Put a pic of her with the motorcycle next to Obama on his bikey and just laugh all day long.

6 Catttt  8/29/08 1:20:48 pm reply quote

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

Go after as in get the votes? I'm a western, small town, small college roots person, and I'm thrilled with her, so probably yes, yes?

7 Cognito  8/29/08 1:21:05 pm reply quote

McCain/Palin '08.

8 KingKenrod  8/29/08 1:21:16 pm reply quote

This issue at the federal level is fairly irrelevent, except maybe judicial appointments, where I think she'll do just fine.

9 wong fei hung  8/29/08 1:22:03 pm reply quote

Charles:

Thanks for the media dishonesty warm-up.

There is and will be much more of this targeted toward Sarah Palin as the election goes on. MSNBC made sure to highlight that she is under state investigation right now, though Alaskans don't seem to buy it considering her approval rating is about 71% higher than the US Congress.

-WFH

10 CalipHater  8/29/08 1:22:07 pm reply quote

Yawnnnnn..... Don't care, non issue

11 rabidfox  8/29/08 1:22:53 pm reply quote

I don't have a problem with ID - or even discussions of ID - so long as the science of evolution is taught in the science classroom. We have numerous creationists around where I live and it struck me one day that these people are perfectly competitent in their chosen fields, plummers, electricians, etc. They don't need to accept the science of evolution because it actually makes diddlysquat difference in their everyday lives. Ms Palin's response actually makes sense in a pratical scenario because I guarantee that, in my part of the state, the issue comes up in every science class every year every time evolution is taught. It's really the only thing that you CAN do.

12 seekeroftruth  8/29/08 1:22:58 pm reply quote

Thank you for clarifying this Charles. Part of what I love about you and LGF is your integrity and your fairness.

13 Shug  8/29/08 1:23:27 pm reply quote

How many of the other potential candidates have a similar position?

Just curious, does Mormonism teach creationism?

Romni
Huckabee
etc

14 HypnoToad  8/29/08 1:23:42 pm reply quote

As someone who has lectured to the public on scientific topics for years, I'm fine with her statement. She doesn't seem to be pushing it at all. This issue will go away fairly quickly IMHO.

15 Shug  8/29/08 1:23:46 pm reply quote

Romni

WTF

Romney

16 Honorary Yooper  8/29/08 1:23:53 pm reply quote

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

Fine, but I've had enough of Harvard, Yale, and the Ivy League for my lifetime. McCain went to Annapolis, and Palin went to the University of Idaho. Remember, folks, Reagan went to tiny Eureka College, Eureka, Illinois, near Peoria.

Maybe small is good.

17 CalipHater  8/29/08 1:24:01 pm reply quote

"She is a hunter, pilot and lifetime member of the NRA, and she was runner-up for the Miss Alaska title, won Miss Congeniality in that contest, and plays the flute."

Enough said.

18 Fat Jolly Penguin  8/29/08 1:24:02 pm reply quote

re: #13 Shug

Just curious, does Mormonism teach creationism?

Yes.

19 maddogg  8/29/08 1:24:02 pm reply quote

I got heat, for the veep.

20 JohnnyReb  8/29/08 1:24:20 pm reply quote

re: #13 Shug

How many of the other potential candidates have a similar position?

Just curious, does Mormonism teach creationism?

Romni
Huckabee
etc


Extremely valid point, and one I would think that McCain would have thought long and hard about.

21 wrenchwench  8/29/08 1:24:23 pm reply quote

re: #5 mbruce

At this point, whatever system brought us this fabulous VPILF is alright by me. Put a pic of her with the motorcycle next to Obama on his bikey and just laugh all day long.

That term shows disrespect, IMHO. But I'm not a guy, so carry on, I guess.

22 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 1:24:24 pm reply quote

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

Middle America will warmly embrace her, imho. Ditto those who consider themselves working class. That's pretty much a majority. Throw in the 20% - 40% of Jews, and with some hard work, we can all celebrate in November.

23 jcm  8/29/08 1:24:42 pm reply quote

re: #6 Catttt

Go after as in get the votes? I'm a western, small town, small college roots person, and I'm thrilled with her, so probably yes, yes?

They're going to belittle her background, she's a mom (ant-feminist), western small town, University of Idaho (Vandals) grad. The very antithesis of the Eastern Elitist Obama/Biden.

24 Killgore Trout  8/29/08 1:24:46 pm reply quote

As long as she isn't going to push it in public schools she can believe whatever she wants. It's still an embarrassment.....

The Republican Party of Alaska platform says, in its section on education: "We support giving Creation Science equal representation with other theories of the origin of life. If evolution is taught, it should be presented as only a theory."


Yeesh.

25 Fenway_Nation  8/29/08 1:24:56 pm reply quote

I thought the MSM would start harping on McCain's son sitting on the board of the struggling Silver State Bancorp.

/For all of 6 months

/Because he was on the board of a bank that merged with Silver State in better times

/But I should probably leave that out if I were working for the MSM

26 Fat Jolly Penguin  8/29/08 1:25:24 pm reply quote

re: #18 Fat Jolly Penguin

Yes.

But Romney believes in evolution.

/ugh -- I linked to the NY Slimes...

27 vbspurs  8/29/08 1:26:08 pm reply quote

I likened her debate stance (the kind all politician's make, to score them rhetorical points to this situation.

Let's say a debate moderator asks

Q: Are you in favour of alternative energy for cars than gas?
A: Yes, I am. Hydrogen is a good alternative energy source.

Would a person listening to this come to the conclusion that the candidate therefore believes in and champions ONLY hydrogen?

No. It would be a complete misreading.

She suggested it to set herself apart in a gubernatorial debate, and it went no further when she was elected Governor. Case closed (for me).

28 rabidfox  8/29/08 1:26:26 pm reply quote

She has more actual administrative experience than the top of the other ticket.

29 Killgore Trout  8/29/08 1:26:39 pm reply quote

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

30 jcm  8/29/08 1:27:01 pm reply quote

re: #17 CalipHater

"She is a hunter, pilot and lifetime member of the NRA, and she was runner-up for the Miss Alaska title, won Miss Congeniality in that contest, and plays the flute."

Enough said.

She's done real things, in real life.
Biden's a political creature, his entire experience is inside the beltway.

Palin's gonna' be a hit in fly over country.

31 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 1:27:05 pm reply quote

re: #15 Shug

Romni

WTF

Romney


Romni is his Italian non-Mormon cousin.

32 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 1:27:05 pm reply quote

What does MILF mean? VPILF?

Can't keep up with the acronyms.

33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  8/29/08 1:27:08 pm reply quote

re: #19 maddogg

I got heat, for the veep.

You're saying your feelings have evolved toward her which has created something in you?

34 Eowyn2  8/29/08 1:27:23 pm reply quote

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

That would be awesome if they did. The republicans could come right back with

A small town is just a big neighborhood
A large city is just a bunch of neighborhoods.

35 Charles  8/29/08 1:27:46 pm reply quote

re: #24 Killgore Trout

As long as she isn't going to push it in public schools she can believe whatever she wants. It's still an embarrassment.....

The Republican Party of Alaska platform says, in its section on education: "We support giving Creation Science equal representation with other theories of the origin of life. If evolution is taught, it should be presented as only a theory."

Yeesh.

Yep. She was simply stating the party line during the debate.

36 timtitan  8/29/08 1:27:50 pm reply quote

I still don't think it should be that big an issue. I'm a Creationist, and a Scientist, but I don't think Creation should be taught alongside Evolution in Science. Quite frankly I think neither should be taught. Not until University level at any rate. It's just iffy science, and for the majority, theres not alot of point. At a High School level, you just cannot handle the in depth coverage of the science involved that such an issue merits.

37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  8/29/08 1:27:58 pm reply quote

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

What does MILF mean? VPILF?

Can't keep up with the acronyms.

Mom's I'd Like to Fondle.

38 bryantay  8/29/08 1:27:58 pm reply quote
39 JohnnyReb  8/29/08 1:28:05 pm reply quote

re: #29 Killgore Trout

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

I don't trust the Federal government on education period. It ain't their job in the constitution and they should not be in it at all.

40 maddogg  8/29/08 1:28:08 pm reply quote

re: #29 Killgore Trout

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

Me either, after all, the libs have done such a bang up job with the schools.....

/s

41 rabidfox  8/29/08 1:28:10 pm reply quote

Kilgore, why don't you trust Republicans on ed reform or science policy?

42 Fat Jolly Penguin  8/29/08 1:28:27 pm reply quote

Aw. The MSM are whining because McCain kept them out of the loop for so long.

43 CalipHater  8/29/08 1:28:28 pm reply quote

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

What does MILF mean? VPILF?

Can't keep up with the acronyms.

Look up the 1st one in urban dictionary and deduce the rest

44 Fenway_Nation  8/29/08 1:28:32 pm reply quote

re: #28 rabidfox

She has more actual administrative experience than the top of the other ticket.

How positively racist of you to point that out.

/

45 Eowyn2  8/29/08 1:29:05 pm reply quote

re: #17 CalipHater

"She is a hunter, pilot and lifetime member of the NRA, and she was runner-up for the Miss Alaska title, won Miss Congeniality in that contest, and plays the flute."

Enough said.


why am I getting images of Sandra Bullock riding in on her husbands harley and shaking this woman's hand.

46 vbspurs  8/29/08 1:29:15 pm reply quote

re: #22 Golem Akbar

Middle America will warmly embrace her, imho. Ditto those who consider themselves working class. That's pretty much a majority. Throw in the 20% - 40% of Jews, and with some hard work, we can all celebrate in November.

I have absolutely no doubt today, that is true.

I live in the heart of Jewish country in South Beach. Not an one of these hard-core Democrats were enthusiastic about Obama. One lady, whose first ballot was cast for FDR in 1936, told me she would vote Republican for the first time in her life in 2008. She was particularly upset because her mother had been a suffragette in the 10s. She wanted Hillary.

And today I call her up and ask, Mrs. Levine, how about that Sarah Palin?

Long story short: we got a new vote today.

47 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 1:29:18 pm reply quote

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

What does MILF mean? VPILF?

Can't keep up with the acronyms.


MILF is a mother I'd like to f...
VPILF is Vice President...etc.

48 Killgore Trout  8/29/08 1:29:19 pm reply quote

re: #36 timtitan

What's your field of study?

49 WrathofG-d  8/29/08 1:30:34 pm reply quote

That is an intersting evolution of her position on the subject.

(bah dum dum)

50 Fenway_Nation  8/29/08 1:30:57 pm reply quote

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

What does MILF mean? VPILF?

Can't keep up with the acronyms.

'Mother I'd Like to F***', i.e. 'hot mom'

The Phillipine-based terrorist group Moro Islamic Liberation Front didn't really take that into consideration when they chose their acronym.

51 kcladderman  8/29/08 1:31:27 pm reply quote

Lots of straw grasping going on in the MSM today it seems.

52 Eowyn2  8/29/08 1:31:29 pm reply quote

re: #36 timtitan

I still don't think it should be that big an issue. I'm a Creationist, and a Scientist, but I don't think Creation should be taught alongside Evolution in Science. Quite frankly I think neither should be taught. Not until University level at any rate. It's just iffy science, and for the majority, theres not alot of point. At a High School level, you just cannot handle the in depth coverage of the science involved that such an issue merits.

I believe God created the universe. I dont care if they teach the theory of evolution as long as they teach it as a theory. I think it should be taught. Not as a history class or a natural science class, but as part of a biology class

53 Killgore Trout  8/29/08 1:31:50 pm reply quote

re: #41 rabidfox

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

54 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 1:32:14 pm reply quote

re: #49 WrathofG-d

That is an intersting evolution of her position on the subject.

(bah dum dum)


Some people are always trying to create an issue when one doesn't exist. They enjoy the big bang of non-issues. [kish]

55 sattv4u2  8/29/08 1:33:16 pm reply quote

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Don't know about that. I've been living in the south for 10 years now, and there are some Good Ole' Redneck Boys here that scientifically make a mean moonshine !

56 Fenway_Nation  8/29/08 1:33:26 pm reply quote

re: #51 kcladderman

Lots of straw grasping going on in the MSM today it seems.

The talking heads on MSNBC were talking about this carefully polished crafted image that's being presented of Palin now.

/not like the top banana on the other ticket

57 rabidfox  8/29/08 1:33:33 pm reply quote

Fenway Nation: I know you're using irony, but I have to say that I think that while 'racism' has been losing a lot of its punch, this campaign season should (hopefully) kill it altogether.

58 wright1  8/29/08 1:33:55 pm reply quote

The truth is in her short time as Governor and Mayor for that matter she has more executive experience that not only her opponent but also McCain. But her detractors are already laying their traps: lack of experience, under investigation and in the pocket of right wing conservatives.

She can actually cut through much of this by simply making cogent, intelligent replies while using a winsome smile.

59 Who Watches the Watchmen?  8/29/08 1:34:01 pm reply quote

re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You're saying your feelings have evolved toward her which has created something in you?

Third leg is tingling?

60 Iron Fist  8/29/08 1:34:21 pm reply quote

Face it folks, the Left is going to go after any religious candidate for their religion. Palin's pro-life. They are going to go after her on that. She's pro-gun, they are going to go after her on that. Worrying that the VP is going to be attacked by the Left is a waste of time.

It's going to happen. Prepare for it. But don't worry about it.

Where Romney had problems was with the Republican base. Same for Tom Ridge. You worry about your base, because you can't win it without them. Sarah Palin's a home run with the base. Given the traffic I saw over at John McCain's Web Site, I think fund-raising is going to back that up.

61 Catttt  8/29/08 1:34:28 pm reply quote

re: #13 Shug

How many of the other potential candidates have a similar position?

Just curious, does Mormonism teach creationism?

Romni
Huckabee
etc

I'm no expert, but my impression of the Mormon view is that it ties in somewhat with the laws of Termodynamics - matter can be neither created nor destroyed but is acted upon and changed in form. Spirit is eternal, as is matter. Spirit is in fact material. God organizied existing matter - He did not create matter out of nothing..

Correct me if I messed up, any LDSers in the audience.

I used to lie awake at night as a child, trying to understand how you could create something from nothing. I am guessing that Joseph Smith did also.

62 JohnnyReb  8/29/08 1:34:35 pm reply quote

re: #42 Fat Jolly Penguin

Aw. The MSM are whining because McCain kept them out of the loop for so long.


OK I waded through about half the comments on that link. Good Lord! They are all over her "lack of experience". I continue to be amazed by the lack of reality by the left.

63 Grok the Fullness  8/29/08 1:34:50 pm reply quote

As on most issues, there are extremes on both sides that tend to cast the argument in black and white. What the Bible and scientific inquiry have established is there are many colors and not necessarily in between. Certainly there is more to the universe than our philosophies and religions...Horatio ;)

64 sattv4u2  8/29/08 1:34:53 pm reply quote

re: #58 wright1

The truth is in her short time as Governor and Mayor for that matter she has more executive experience that not only her opponent but also McCain. But her detractors are already laying their traps: lack of experience, under investigation and in the pocket of right wing conservatives.

She can actually cut through much of this by simply making cogent, intelligent replies while using a winsome smile middle finger.


I like my way better

65 runrabbitrun  8/29/08 1:35:13 pm reply quote

re: #22 Golem Akbar

Middle America will warmly embrace her, imho. Ditto those who consider themselves working class. That's pretty much a majority. Throw in the 20% - 40% of Jews, and with some hard work, we can all celebrate in November.

Great points.

Krauthammer, Chris Wallace, and Bill Kristol annoyed some Repubs and conservatives with their honest appraisal of the effectiveness of Barry's latest major speeches in targeting working people, but in doing so, they were sending a crucial message to the McCain camp regarding the importance of reaching the middle class and its concerns in their campaign's theme.

66 maddogg  8/29/08 1:35:23 pm reply quote

re: #59 Who Watches the Watchmen?


re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You're saying your feelings have evolved toward her which has created something in you?

Third leg is tingling?


I am a triped....:)

67 kansas  8/29/08 1:36:05 pm reply quote

Somebody needs to be assigned to watch that firking smuck Olbermann to see how he attacks this fine woman and gets away with it. I would but can not watch Olbermann for health reasons.

68 hillbilly geek  8/29/08 1:36:21 pm reply quote

Bravo Charles!
I too have problems with ID, and find Palin's clarification (or softening, if you will) quite palatable.

69 akak  8/29/08 1:36:28 pm reply quote

Hope someone has clip of Hannity asking Dukakis about Obama's achievements?

Zippo. Would be good McCain commercial.

70 tokyobk  8/29/08 1:36:36 pm reply quote

re: #66 maddogg

I am a triped....:)

I don' believe in anything without hard evidence.

71 vbspurs  8/29/08 1:36:38 pm reply quote

re: #54 Golem Akbar

Some people are always trying to create an issue when one doesn't exist. They enjoy the big bang of non-issues. [kish]

You guys are creating a racket with your drums. [cisboom]

72 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 1:36:46 pm reply quote

Who would you rather have as Veep? A mother who has a child with Down's Syndrome, or bloviating relic who has Real Downer Syndrome?

73 Lynn B.  8/29/08 1:36:50 pm reply quote

I hope Charles is right on this. In any event, I trust she's going to be given plenty of opportunities to clarify her position in the coming months. So this probably won't be the last thread on it.

Until then, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

74 wrenchwench  8/29/08 1:37:27 pm reply quote

re: #66 maddogg

I am a triped....:)

Isn't that what they make menudo out of? :)

75 Catttt  8/29/08 1:37:55 pm reply quote

re: #23 jcm

They're going to belittle her background, she's a mom (ant-feminist), western small town, University of Idaho (Vandals) grad. The very antithesis of the Eastern Elitist Obama/Biden.

Oh. Well, I'm from what Time magazine once called "a sleepy little cow town." My mom grew up on a ranch. I know the best way to kill a chicken. I went to college in an even smaller town, smack dab in the middle of the Rocky Mountains, where a lot of people did nothing but ski during winter quarter.

A large hunk of America is from a similar background. Talk about a way to get our hackles up. Gosh, but the elitists are ignorant.

76 jcm  8/29/08 1:38:01 pm reply quote

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Ned Lud '08!

/

We need major education reform. We need to break the grip of the unions on education. Frankly I'd like to see the Federal Dept. of Ed. go the way of the Dinosaurs.

We have Zinn's People's History of the United States as the popular HS history text, it's in the mold of Chumpsky. We've got self esteem taking priority over mastery of the material. We've got all kinds of environmental psuedo science, peace and justice being taught cross-disciplinary, in math classes the justice of Juan have fewer oranges that Judy is discussed.

The right isn't the only ones bending education to their political will. The left has been doing it for 30-40 years.

77 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 1:38:14 pm reply quote

re: #66 maddogg

I am a triped....:)

Goo goo goo joob.

78 yma o hyd  8/29/08 1:38:20 pm reply quote

This is the money quote, from the link above:

“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

Thats how it ought to be - and it reminds me of a famous saying of a very famous historical person, Queen Elizabeth I. She said she would not make a window into the hearts of her people, when asked to enforce the protestant religion ...

I join my thanks to the others, for your utter fairness, Charles, especially on this topic, in providing the links.

And finally, slightly OT, thanks for this site, and for keeeping it running under more than extremely trying circumstances!
This is the first post today I could get through - alla fternoon i was glad just to be able to read what the Lizard Nation ahd to say, updinging was all I sometimes was able to to.
I hope the poor hamsters ahve had lots to eat and drink. I won't ask you to give every one of them a hug from me - but perhaps a little extra titbit to cheer them up?
Thanks!

79 Tom Kratman  8/29/08 1:38:31 pm reply quote

I rather think she ought to phrase it as a states' rights / local community rights issue with which the Federal government ought have no input or concern.

80 docremulac  8/29/08 1:38:33 pm reply quote

Nobody's perfect. Reagan was a "back burner' creationist and right to lifer wasn't he? Here's my attitude, the governments 3 top jobs are to:

1- Protect me and my family from the barbarians.

2- No, really, protect me family from the G*d damn barbarians.

3- See #1 & #2.

So when they come out telling me about how they're going to eduficate me and learnify me about life the universe and everything I say: "That's great, where do you stand on protecting me and my family from the barbarian Muslim hoard that's sworn to kill us all, take over our land and steal our stuff?"

81 Fenway_Nation  8/29/08 1:38:33 pm reply quote

re: #73 Lynn B.

I hope Charles is right on this. In any event, I trust she's going to be given plenty of opportunities to clarify her position in the coming months.

Not in the MSM.

82 rabidfox  8/29/08 1:38:39 pm reply quote

We have a population that is scientifically illiterate - mostly due to the poor quality of much of our education today. For example, look at the AGW phenomonon or the 911 ignorance.

83 jcm  8/29/08 1:38:45 pm reply quote

re: #55 sattv4u2

Don't know about that. I've been living in the south for 10 years now, and there are some Good Ole' Redneck Boys here that scientifically make a mean moonshine !

Good moonshine is ART!
;-)

84 WrathofG-d  8/29/08 1:39:02 pm reply quote

re: #54 Golem Akbar

Is it possible that this "issue" could be created on LGF. (ie: what if somehow the dems didn't find it but for the fact that it is posted here? Giving LGF too much credit?)

85 Killgore Trout  8/29/08 1:39:07 pm reply quote

re: #55 sattv4u2

Distillation is very important science!

86 Naso Tang  8/29/08 1:39:29 pm reply quote

re: #35 Charles

Yep. She was simply stating the party line during the debate.

I'm cynical enough to think that sometimes some things have to be at least alluded to in order to have a chance of being elected, so while I thought this was a great move on McCain's part in principle, I'm still wondering what she meant by “I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,”.

Does that mean that she would consider appointing a creationist to a scientific or educational advisory board? Unfortunately, personal opinions are not divorced from competence.

87 Kreuzueber Halbmond  8/29/08 1:39:32 pm reply quote
“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

Sounds reasonable to me. What is learning without the ability to ask questions of one's self and one's teachers?

88 hillbilly geek  8/29/08 1:40:03 pm reply quote

re: #76 jcm

We need major education reform. We need to break the grip of the unions on education. Frankly I'd like to see the Federal Dept. of Ed. go the way of the Dinosaurs.

Hear hear!

89 Killgore Trout  8/29/08 1:40:09 pm reply quote

re: #76 jcm

Agreed. One side or the other will get their shit together sooner or later.

90 Eowyn2  8/29/08 1:40:41 pm reply quote

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Most of the scientists I know are conservative. Why? Because a true science mind has to have PROOF. Logically flowing from one base to another is simply not done in my line of science. Computer science. Math based. PROOFS.

Most of the liberal Arts people I know are, well, liberals. Women's Studies is not a science class. Nuclear Physics is a science class.

91 IslandLibertarian  8/29/08 1:40:43 pm reply quote

Even if Palin believed in astrology or reincarnation or ufo's or Sasquatch or Scientology or Buddah or Chrishna or Mu or Elvis, it would not change my mind about supporting her and McCain in November.

NObama!

92 Cap'n DOC  8/29/08 1:41:14 pm reply quote

re: #7 Cognito

Well. That was short and to the point.

93 Catttt  8/29/08 1:41:30 pm reply quote

re: #84 WrathofG-d

Is it possible that this "issue" could be created on LGF. (ie: what if somehow the dems didn't find it but for the fact that it is posted here? Giving LGF too much credit?)

The other side of the coin is that almost nobody cares - or understands - the issue anyway.

Sometimes we must remind ourselves that most people don't bother to know or understand most of the issues that we debate here.

94 CalipHater  8/29/08 1:41:47 pm reply quote

re: #91 IslandLibertarian

Even if Palin believed in astrology or reincarnation or ufo's or Sasquatch or Scientology or Buddah or Chrishna or Mu or Elvis, it would not change my mind about supporting her and McCain in November.

NObama!

But Bigfoot IS real (in spite of crappy hoaxers)

95 kcladderman  8/29/08 1:41:58 pm reply quote

re: #82 rabidfox

We have a population that is scientifically illiterate - mostly due to the poor quality of much of our education today. For example, look at the AGW phenomonon or the 911 ignorance.

Exactly ! Look how many people believe fire can melt steel!
///////

96 Naso Tang  8/29/08 1:42:04 pm reply quote

re: #61 Catttt

I'm no expert, but my impression of the Mormon view is that it ties in somewhat with the laws of Termodynamics - matter can be neither created nor destroyed but is acted upon and changed in form. Spirit is eternal, as is matter. Spirit is in fact material. God organizied existing matter - He did not create matter out of nothing..

Correct me if I messed up, any LDSers in the audience.

I used to lie awake at night as a child, trying to understand how you could create something from nothing. I am guessing that Joseph Smith did also.

From what I have read of Joseph Smith, what he though mostly about was when he was next going to get laid, and how he was going to make the case that those golden plates would never actually be seen by anyone.

97 Lynn B.  8/29/08 1:42:09 pm reply quote

re: #81 Fenway_Nation

Not in the MSM.

Oh, yes, especially in the MSM. This is potential red meat for them. Oh course, if she smacks it down as she seems to have done in the interview Charles quoted from, they'll back off it quick.

One thing I'm fairly certain of is that this is one candidate who can handle just about anything the media will throw at her.

98 Eowyn2  8/29/08 1:42:52 pm reply quote

re: #79 Tom Kratman

I rather think she ought to phrase it as a states' rights / local community rights issue with which the Federal government ought have no input or concern.

that takes away the NEA and they will be pissed and, protest at school.

99 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 1:43:11 pm reply quote

re: #84 WrathofG-d

Is it possible that this "issue" could be created on LGF. (ie: what if somehow the dems didn't find it but for the fact that it is posted here? Giving LGF too much credit?)

I think in the day of the internet, it doesn't much matter where it starts, it'll spread fast, and within hours. LGF is read widely by all sides, but so is Kos, and so many others.

100 runrabbitrun  8/29/08 1:43:12 pm reply quote

re: #52 Eowyn2

I believe God created the universe. I dont care if they teach the theory of evolution as long as they teach it as a theory. I think it should be taught. Not as a history class or a natural science class, but as part of a biology class

Biology is a science. God creating the universe is a philosophy (The Metaphysics).

For philosophical musings to be upgraded to science, the scientific method has to be applied with empirical proofs.

If Einstein had not been able to give us scientific proofs for his theories of relativity, he'd only be one in a million other another philosopher/hippies through history saying - whoah, hey dudes! y'know, I just can see that, like, matter and energy are the same thing..... you dig?"

101 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 1:43:28 pm reply quote

re: #94 CalipHater

But Bigfoot IS real (in spite of crappy hoaxers)

Mr. Bigfoot Stuff.

102 docremulac  8/29/08 1:43:52 pm reply quote

And I'll take the Democrats seriously about their deep concern for scientifically sound teaching in the school when they teach that Islam is a barbaric ancient religion designed to give pirates and caravan raiders and excuse to rob, pillage, rape and murder.

103 vbspurs  8/29/08 1:44:07 pm reply quote

Guys, have you seen this Newsweek video yet? "A private moment with VP Sarah Palin"

[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

"I got that title Miss Congeniality, out of my system". Awesome.

104 Outrider  8/29/08 1:44:08 pm reply quote

I realize the Democrats would love to think the Presidency is a dictatorship and the President has merely to utter some words and laws are magically rewritten. I am aware they would love the ability to do this if they got in office.

This isn't how it works though. The President or VP can't change the education laws to include creationism in public schools, even if he/she wanted to.

But, I am betting there will be a core of people that fly off the handle, look no further, and change their vote based on her initial remarks.

105 Kenneth  8/29/08 1:44:24 pm reply quote

Very well put, Charles.

Palin made a clear distinction between her personal and public views on the topic.

106 Junior  8/29/08 1:44:27 pm reply quote

The fact that this would be an issue for some of you is proof that the entire debate of evolution against whatever else you want to call it is a religious one as much for the former as it is for the latter. Evolution has become a religion with just as many zealots.

107 yma o hyd  8/29/08 1:44:43 pm reply quote

re: #29 Killgore Trout

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

I'd trust socialists/dems not at all on education reform or science policy - they see education under the aspect that every child must win something, but tehre must be no competition - and science, well, thats far too costly.
Latest proof here from NuLab country (a.k.a. UK) - they were going to close the radio telescope Jodrell Bank - because it cost too much. Too much - that was the huge, ginormous sum of 8 million pound sterling ($16 mill) ...
Thats socialist science policy for you.

A party which supports and upholds its armed forces is automatically engaged in supporting sciences.

108 CIA Reject  8/29/08 1:45:06 pm reply quote

I'm a little late to the party here, and this is not exactly my favorite topic, but I think we could all benefit from some clarification in terms-ie what do we mean by "Creationist".

For example: I believe that G*d is ultimately responsible for the creation of the Universe, and I take that as an article of Faith, not of science. In fact I find any attempt to "scientifically prove" what I take as an article of Faith to be an affront to my Faith.

Does that make me a "Creationist"?

109 Catttt  8/29/08 1:45:06 pm reply quote

re: #96 Naso Tang

From what I have read of Joseph Smith, what he though mostly about was when he was next going to get laid, and how he was going to make the case that those golden plates would never actually be seen by anyone.

Heh.

My dad's best friend was a Mormon. Daddy used to tease him mercilessly about those golden tablets. :D

110 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 1:45:23 pm reply quote

re: #101 buzzsawmonkey

Mr. Bigfoot Stuff.


Was that Big on Sex in the City?
(I never watched it, but Mrs. Golem did)

111 garycooper  8/29/08 1:45:24 pm reply quote

Evolution is "just a theory?" Um, okay. So is gravity. So is thermodynamics. So is plate tectonics. Just theories, should be presented with their "equally compelling" alternatives. (sigh)

In other news, Gustav is starting to scare me. As dumb as I think it was for people to rebuild in the New Orleans basin, I happen to have a very good friend who rebuilt his business there, and moved into a house on slightly-higher ground than his old house, which was flooded and destroyed by Katrina.

I hope it veers off, and hits somewhere less vulnerable to the storm surge.

112 Grok the Fullness  8/29/08 1:46:59 pm reply quote

re: #100 runrabbitrun


Actually, scientific method is part of philosophy. Back in the day, philosophy wasn't relegated to the backbench hippy forum. It was the discipline of socrates, Plato, Aristotle, et al. Philosophy, the love of wisdom.

113 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 1:47:42 pm reply quote

re: #106 Junior

The fact that this would be an issue for some of you is proof that the entire debate of evolution against whatever else you want to call it is a religious one as much for the former as it is for the latter. Evolution has become a religion with just as many zealots.

You have it turned around. The "debate" consists entirely of people trying to shoehorn religious belief into science. That makes for a "religious debate" only because religious people are needlessly creating one.

114 garycooper  8/29/08 1:48:45 pm reply quote

re: #102 docremulac

And I'll take the Democrats seriously about their deep concern for scientifically sound teaching in the school when they teach that Islam is a barbaric ancient religion designed to give pirates and caravan raiders and excuse to rob, pillage, rape and murder.

Point taken.

115 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 1:49:19 pm reply quote

If she believes that all sides need to be heard on this issue, and no one side ought to negate the other, then what is there to discuss? We can all get along.

116 Naso Tang  8/29/08 1:50:01 pm reply quote

re: #100 runrabbitrun


If Einstein had not been able to give us scientific proofs for his theories of relativity, he'd only be one in a million other another philosopher/hippies through history saying - whoah, hey dudes! y'know, I just can see that, like, matter and energy are the same thing..... you dig?"

Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but I don't think it was Einstein who gave us "proofs"; it was other scientists who provided the real world validations.

117 Who Watches the Watchmen?  8/29/08 1:50:11 pm reply quote

re: #111 garycooper


In other news, Gustav is starting to scare me.

It's following Camille's path.

118 alegrias  8/29/08 1:50:51 pm reply quote

Progressive BHO partied in Berlin;

Sarah Palin visited wounded US troops at Landstuhl, Germany hospital (July 2007)

[Link: www.ak-prepared.com...]

119 Salem  8/29/08 1:51:06 pm reply quote

I want to hear her state her position on teaching ID in public school in the debates. If she says that it should have equal time with evolution or some such claptrap, then I hope she gets nailed to the wall, that McCain loses and that the evangelicals are unceremoniously jettisoned from the Republican party (which should have happened years ago) in the rudest way possible. And if the Republican party couldn't survive that, then that's just the state of affairs that we'll have to deal with. Might as well face up to them now.

120 runrabbitrun  8/29/08 1:51:44 pm reply quote

re: #112 Grok the Fullness

Actually, scientific method is part of philosophy. Back in the day, philosophy wasn't relegated to the backbench hippy forum. It was the discipline of socrates, Plato, Aristotle, et al. Philosophy, the love of wisdom.

As a former student and lover of philosophy (and science ) myself - I appreciate your respect for the field :) As for the philosopher/hippie comment, I was only using the term to try to make a point.

121 Naso Tang  8/29/08 1:51:48 pm reply quote

re: #109 Catttt

Heh.

My dad's best friend was a Mormon. Daddy used to tease him mercilessly about those golden tablets. :D

Good friends indeed.

122 hillbilly geek  8/29/08 1:52:04 pm reply quote

re: #100 runrabbitrun

If God had made it perfectly irrefutable that he existed and had created the earth, there's be no such thing as faith.

124 Irene NYC  8/29/08 1:52:43 pm reply quote

OT for all you trolls out there

Listening to Obama spokespeople and their talking points against McCain and Palin: If you all say exactly the same thing (i.e., "continue the same failed policies of the last 8 years," blah, blah, blah), using the exact same words, we're going to begin to think that you're nothing but programmed robots, who can't think on your feet and have challenged vocabularies.

Oh, that's accurate?

Got it.

125 Lynn B.  8/29/08 1:52:46 pm reply quote

re: #115 Golem Akbar

If she believes that all sides need to be heard on this issue, and no one side ought to negate the other, then what is there to discuss? We can all get along.

There's plenty to discuss. As a few dozen recent posts here at LGF, many with well over 1000 comments, will attest.

126 CIA Reject  8/29/08 1:52:50 pm reply quote

re: #115 Golem Akbar

If she believes that all sides need to be heard on this issue, and no one side ought to negate the other, then what is there to discuss? We can all get along.

Precisely. I think this quote, when viewed in it's proper context, was simply a "Rodney King" moment. Unfortunately we've already seen that some in the media will twist it to make Mrs. Palin out to be some kind of religious nut.

Which is really ironic when you consider the real islamic religious nuts that these same media outlets seem to support.

127 wolfie  8/29/08 1:52:59 pm reply quote

To get an idea of what the left wants in education, you should follow Stanley Kurtz's (and others') investigation of the Chicago Annenburg Challenge. See how Obama, Ayers, & Co. spend money to improve "education." Notice especially how all of the projects meant to improve algebra skills were denied in favor of multi-cult crap, while serious natural science programs were ditched for enviromania and peace studies.

128 big steve  8/29/08 1:53:59 pm reply quote

I have been watching the LGF reactions today along with Kos and MSM to the Sarah Palin announcement. I personally am giddy. But I had to step back and analyze. I don't like per position on creationism but to be honest at the national politics level it really isn't impactfull. Also to be honest I am not anti-abortion. However, I do like her background, her political positions, and much else. I guess where I come out is that she adds sparkle to McCain's campaign. Honestly I am the perfect McCain voter. I consider myself an independent (voted twice for Bill and twice for George W.) I am just about perfectly aligned with McCain on everything. However I have worried that a 72 year old white guy senator with a comb-over was just getting overshadowed by the whole "history" thing of Obama. Sarah Palin, no matter the flaws and whatever the media and Oppo will dish up on her, has changed the calculus immeasurably. Obama no longer has sole possession of the history card, is not the only fresh face, young, vibrant person in the race and he now is looking more and more well....ordinary.

129 hillbilly geek  8/29/08 1:54:09 pm reply quote

re: #121 Naso Tang

I was thinkin' it Tang, but I wasn't gonna say it...

130 seekeroftruth  8/29/08 1:54:12 pm reply quote

re: #118 alegrias

Progressive BHO partied in Berlin;

Sarah Palin visited wounded US troops at Landstuhl, Germany hospital (July 2007)

[Link: www.ak-prepared.com...]

She also visited troops in Kuwait on that trip:
[Link: www.ktuu.com...]

131 StinkHammer  8/29/08 1:55:09 pm reply quote

I can't think of any political figure with whom I agree %100 on every issue. If Palin is an advocate for Creationism in school classrooms, then I oppose her position. However, I've also resigned myself to the position that the Republican party coalition will more likely be comprised of Creationism supporters the other major party. And since I align myself out of practicality with the Republicans -- primarily for their economic/foreign policy stances -- I can overlook many of their social issues with which I disagree . The positives therein certainly trump any alignment I might have with any other (viable) party.

Overall, if Palin's able to help retain a Republican administration (which will on the whole serve my preferred political coalitions) in power, I'm all for her. Besides, I don't see her position as veep as having much influence on legislating Creationism wholesale in this country.

132 Outrider  8/29/08 1:55:17 pm reply quote

re: #113 buzzsawmonkey

You have it turned around. The "debate" consists entirely of people trying to shoehorn religious belief into science. That makes for a "religious debate" only because religious people are needlessly creating one.

I agree. Generally speaking, evolution can be proven and is science. Creationism is faith based and as such can not be proven.

I'm not sure even debating this subject, in a classroom environment is such a good idea as it detracts from the teaching time; debating fact on one side and opinion on the other. Considering how many comments the subject produces in this forum and the emotion it generates, I can imagine how out of hand the debate would get in a science class.

They want to debate the subject? Join the debate club and go for it. Want to study creationism? Go for it. But not in science class.

133 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 1:55:28 pm reply quote

re: #119 Salem

I want to hear her state her position on teaching ID in public school in the debates. If she says that it should have equal time with evolution or some such claptrap, then I hope she gets nailed to the wall, that McCain loses and that the evangelicals are unceremoniously jettisoned from the Republican party (which should have happened years ago) in the rudest way possible. And if the Republican party couldn't survive that, then that's just the state of affairs that we'll have to deal with. Might as well face up to them now.

Your view is consistent, I'll give you that.

It is also shortsighted.

134 oldbennevis  8/29/08 1:55:31 pm reply quote

OT: Brooks and Dunn song at the DNC

Just got this from the Tennessean newspaper (web edition). I was, to say the least, dissapointed that B&D were in support of BOH. It appears that I may have been too quick to judge:

Brooks & Dunn, writer react to song being played after Obama historical speech

Note: The songwriter might yet deserve my scorn.

135 Catttt  8/29/08 1:55:33 pm reply quote

re: #121 Naso Tang

Good friends indeed.

Oh, yeah. They teased each other all the time, Roman Catholic versus Morman. I learned a lot about the LDS faith - AND about friendship.

My dad's friend loved to mention that after my daddy rubbed his Saint Christopher medal on his pal's car, the car broke down three times on the way back to California. :D

136 formercorpsman  8/29/08 1:55:41 pm reply quote

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I wish I had such optimism.

137 rabidfox  8/29/08 1:55:41 pm reply quote

Gary Cooper: I'd love to see Gustov lose strength and become just a TD. But I don't think that will happen. But that 'less vulnerable' comment got under my skin a bit. Are you aware that parts of Missippi and Alabama were wiped out entirely? I know that NO got most of the press, but most of the damage was to the east and it was horrific.

138 Lynn B.  8/29/08 1:55:41 pm reply quote

re: #119 Salem

I want to hear her state her position on teaching ID in public school in the debates. If she says that it should have equal time with evolution or some such claptrap, then I hope she gets nailed to the wall, that McCain loses and that the evangelicals are unceremoniously jettisoned from the Republican party (which should have happened years ago) in the rudest way possible. And if the Republican party couldn't survive that, then that's just the state of affairs that we'll have to deal with. Might as well face up to them now.

I'm with you, but only that far. Because McCain can't lose without Obama winning, and I'm not sure that's a price America should have to pay.

139 Charles  8/29/08 1:55:56 pm reply quote

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

140 Piglet-U93  8/29/08 1:56:04 pm reply quote

So, has science advanced enough to be able to create life from lifelessness? Has science even observed life being created from lifelessness?

I do not know of any, references anyone?

Sure, I believe life evolves but what made it start? A pure accident?
If the human race lives long enough (without a serious setback) it might even prove (part of) evolution - be able to define how life acquires or losses attributes over time.

Nevertheless, the initiation of life is beyond science at this point in time and may still be unanswered for eons.

it is sufficient for Creationists to have faith and say God set/up the permanent rules of the universe and set it all into motion from nothingness and let it "unravel" or "grow" (evolution).

It is sufficient for Evolutionists to investigate and document life's adapation and changes through time and present the evidence of those observations but to say how life began is presumptuous.

141 ladycatnip  8/29/08 1:56:07 pm reply quote

Hopefully ID won't be an issue. I certainly don't see it as a deal killer. But the left is certainly going to make hay of it.

142 Ojoe  8/29/08 1:56:10 pm reply quote
“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

And in fact this is the Constitutional position, Article VI, last paragraph.

143 Iron Fist  8/29/08 1:56:16 pm reply quote

re: #119 Salem

Not a little anti-Christian there, are we? Not going to happen. This isn't on the front plate of the Electorate anyway, but if you ask them I'm sure a majority of Republicans are Creationists. Not necessarily young earthers (I'd say most aren't) but in terms of believing that God created the Earth?

Yeah, a majority. So you want the Republicans to tell the majority of their base to piss off? Which party did you say you were for, again?

144 ploome hineni  8/29/08 1:56:32 pm reply quote

...meanwhile back in neverneverland

On Thursday Graziano accused Israel of unilaterally violating United Nations Security Council Resolution 1701, the cease-fire agreement that ended the 34-day Second Lebanon War between Israel and the Lebanese militia Hezbollah.

The UNIFIL chief made his comments at a press conference at UN headquarters in New York. He said that continued Israel Air Force overflights in Lebanese airspace and Israel's refusal to submit maps of areas on which it dropped cluster bombs during the war constituted a "permanent violation of 1701."

Graziano also referred to the village of Ghajar, which sits on the Israel-Lebanon border, as "a permanent area under occupation."

The Italian general, meanwhile, said that Hezbollah recognizes Resolution 1701, and that the militant Lebanese group and UNIFIL forces enjoy excellent cooperation with one another. He added that apart from UN and Lebanese soldiers and local hunters, no one is armed south of the Litani River.

When asked about the smuggling of weapons into Lebanon, Graziano said he could not ensure that the area under his jurisdiction would be impenetrable, though he said there is no evidence of arms smuggling nor has there been movement of armed gunmen.

so what happened?

BEIRUT (Reuters) - A Lebanese army helicopter that was hit by gunfire in south Lebanon was targeted by Hezbollah fighters who thought the aircraft was Israeli, a Lebanese newspaper reported on Friday.

The pilot of the aircraft was killed in the shooting on Thursday over Iqlim al-Touffah district. The area is controlled by the powerful political and military group Hezbollah, which fought a 34-day war with Israel in 2006.

As-Safir newspaper reported the aircraft had landed and taken off again in a training drill. Hezbollah gunmen in the area "thought that there was an Israeli landing attempt (under way) and opened fire in the direction of the helicopter, hitting it", it said.

Hezbollah did not confirm that its gunmen had fired on the aircraft but said in a statement it would cooperate fully with an investigation into the matter. The group described what happened as a "very tragic and painful incident".

the UN, priceless!

145 philosoteric  8/29/08 1:56:44 pm reply quote

re: #39 JohnnyReb

Anyone else in favor of privatizing public education?

re: #36 timtitan

I agree. Adolescents are way too self-absorbed to care about questioning their positions with reason. (Plus they have no grammar.)

146 Kenneth  8/29/08 1:57:21 pm reply quote

re: #108 CIA Reject

Some people have defined "Creationist" in those terms, but others define it very differently. I too believe in G-d as the ultimate creator of life & the universe. I also believe in the scientific validity of evolution & the Big Bang theory of cosmology. I don't use the term "Creationist" to describe my views. I do not find science contradicts my faith in any way. I do not accept the Intelligent Design arguments that pretend to put a scientific face on what are really theological concepts. In fact, I find ID & Creationism to be not only fake science, but very weak theology as well.

.

147 Fat Jolly Penguin  8/29/08 1:57:33 pm reply quote

re: #123 Cygnus

OT: A left-wing solution to rising sea levels

That's so stupid I would wonder if that was a moby, if I hadn't met so many moonbats...

148 vbspurs  8/29/08 1:57:43 pm reply quote

re: #119 Salem

then I hope she gets nailed to the wall, that McCain loses and that the evangelicals are unceremoniously jettisoned from the Republican party (which should have happened years ago) in the rudest way possible.

Forgive me, but you sound very bitter about your fellow Republicans. Some are pro-choice. I am pro-Life. I don't want them to be jettisoned from our Party, despite the fact that we share morally opposite positions, not just engage in intellectual sophistry like Creationism v. Evolution.

I can live with it, because I am not an extremist, despite being a vehemently pro-Evolutionist.

As long as I have been alive, extremism has characterised the Democratic Party and leftist parties of every stripe around the world. They do not tolerate apostasy from their agenda of any kind.

So perhaps instead of booting out people from the Republican Party, you can form your own Party instead.

I say this as respectfully as I can.

149 Outrider  8/29/08 1:57:45 pm reply quote

re: #119 Salem

I want to hear her state her position on teaching ID in public school in the debates. If she says that it should have equal time with evolution or some such claptrap, then I hope she gets nailed to the wall, that McCain loses and that the evangelicals are unceremoniously jettisoned from the Republican party (which should have happened years ago) in the rudest way possible. And if the Republican party couldn't survive that, then that's just the state of affairs that we'll have to deal with. Might as well face up to them now.

That is just silly. Toss the entire Republican platform out the window and sacrifice the election because of her personal beliefs? She has already stated she would not do this. Didn't you read the entire article?

150 LemonJoose  8/29/08 1:57:51 pm reply quote

It is going to be really fun watching the ultra-leftist feminists fail to resist their temptation to unfairly belittle and smear a smart, successful, accomplished female vice-presidential candidate.

Hilary Rosen was visibly queasy as she was providing her comments on CNN. She looked like her lunch was not sitting well in her stomach. LOL!

Palin is a fantastic choice. Immediately after Obama picked Biden, I thought she would be the best pick for McCain.

151 Grok the Fullness  8/29/08 1:57:54 pm reply quote

re: #119 Salem

Or you could form your own party.

152 alegrias  8/29/08 1:58:53 pm reply quote

re: #130 seekeroftruth

She also visited troops in Kuwait on that trip:
[Link: www.ktuu.com...]

* * *
Thank you for that EVIDENCE Palin spends more time thinking about her troops at war and her country's important current challenges in geopolitics, energy, national security.

153 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 1:59:06 pm reply quote

re: #125 Lynn B.

There's plenty to discuss. As a few dozen recent posts here at LGF, many with well over 1000 comments, will attest.

I think that may be kind of like "picking flysh*t out of the pepper." We can agree to disagree. There are bigger fish to fry. [and any other cliche you can think of to express that idea]

154 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 1:59:20 pm reply quote

re: #123 Cygnus

OT: A left-wing solution to rising sea levels

What a tool of the right-wing death machine! If he's going to scoop up seawater, he should be evaporating it to make his own sea-salt instead of disposing of it. Doesn't he want a sustainable society?

155 Salem  8/29/08 1:59:25 pm reply quote

re: #138 Lynn B.

I'm with you, but only that far. Because McCain can't lose without Obama winning, and I'm not sure that's a price America should have to pay.

I suppose you're right. I must say I'd really be more impressed with her if it weren't for her obvious evangelical bent.

156 mrkwong  8/29/08 1:59:51 pm reply quote

So far as I can tell she's not proposing that creationism should be taught as part of a science curriculum with materials that attempt to pretend that it's been subjected to the scrutiny of any sort of scientific method.

From everything I've been able to figure out about her, she's as close to a sensible libertarian as we might ever see in national elected office (as well as being a whole lot hotter than the alternatives.) And, frankly, having a president (or at least president-in-training) who knows when to pat the enviroloonies on the back and when to throw ropes around their necks is perhaps the one issue, after national security, that will get my vote.

Somehow I think a President Palin would be a whole lot less likely to sign off on, say, snowmobile bans on Federal land, than the usual run of Harvard-educated urban elitists (like, uh, that other guy who was supposed to have given a speech yesterday. Did he?)

I think it's inevitable that a few wrinkles and a little gray will show up before we're able to elect her President, though.

157 Who Watches the Watchmen?  8/29/08 2:00:04 pm reply quote

re: #127 wolfie

To get an idea of what the left wants in education, you should follow Stanley Kurtz's (and others') investigation of the Chicago Annenburg Challenge. See how Obama, Ayers, & Co. spend money to improve "education." Notice especially how all of the projects meant to improve algebra skills were denied in favor of multi-cult crap, while serious natural science programs were ditched for enviromania and peace studies.

End result: EPIC FAIL. No improvement.

158 Kenneth  8/29/08 2:00:27 pm reply quote

re: #116 Naso Tang

Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but I don't think it was Einstein who gave us "proofs"; it was other scientists who provided the real world validations.

A bit of both, really. Einstein presented mathematical proofs for his theories. Various other scientists conducted the experiments which provided experimental proof.

159 Alberta Oil Peon  8/29/08 2:00:29 pm reply quote

re: #2 Catttt

Thank you for your thoughtful response, Charles. I have been educated on this topic because of you, and I put a good deal of weight on your opinion on it.

Truth to tell, based on Gov. Palin's response, I think even more of her.

Agreed. I believe this will be a tempest in a tea cup, compared to some of the other "negatives" the Left will dream up.

Having read that ScienceBlogs link in the other thread, I personally cannot see that she was doing anything other than throwing a bone to the "Creationist" crowd in an attempt to keep them on-side.

Point: if in fact the second part of her statement, that she would not support adding ID to the curriculum is accurate, then that even puts her at odds with the state Republican platform, and at odds in a good way.

Second point: even if she is some kind of stealth IDer, the position of VP really doesn't give her much leverage to advance that cause.

IMHO, there is nothing at all wrong with allowing Creationism/ID being discussed in the classroom, as long as it's quite clearly not part of the curriculum, and does not appear on an exam question except perhaps like this: "Why is Intelligent Design not considered to be science?"

If one of the students raises the ID question in a biology class, a good teacher could use that as a teachable moment, to explain the difference between evidence-based thinking and faith-based thinking, and how that means that science deliberately excludes supernatural explanations for phenomena because they lead to untestable hypotheses, and that this separation serves to protect both science and faith by making each pre-eminent in their own sphere.

And, needless to say, a poor teacher will do their students a disservice when that situation arises, be they a lazy time-server, a stealth IDer, or simply ignorant and ill-trained.

160 Cygnus  8/29/08 2:01:11 pm reply quote

re: #71 vbspurs

You guys are creating a racket with your drums. [cisboom]

Behave yourselves or I'm bringing in the timpani! (Cue "Dies Irae" from Verdi's Requiem.)

161 Canadian Guy  8/29/08 2:01:12 pm reply quote

Chris Matthews is now on MSNBC.

Let's see how he handles this.

162 big steve  8/29/08 2:01:24 pm reply quote

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

Not to get a wee bit into the weeds....but technically the VP does get to break ties in the Senate were there an abortion bill or confirmation of a court nominee with a strong stand. But the chances of this are slim. And even as a PR person the VP generally is listen to nearly never.

163 Dianna  8/29/08 2:01:31 pm reply quote

re: #79 Tom Kratman

Hey! Good to see you!

I hope things are a bit better for you?

164 Salem  8/29/08 2:01:42 pm reply quote

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

165 kynna  8/29/08 2:01:53 pm reply quote

She's running for the Vice Presidency. In the two years that she was Governor of Alaska, did she ever try to force religion into the schools? There's an actual record to check past that statement.

The clarification and the fact the left feels they have to semi-Dowdify her tells me there's nothing to fear. If there were, they would have provided the whole quote and given examples of behavior consistent with a rabid religion-monger.

When it's not there, they lie. SOP. It's up to us to make sure they don't get away with it, eh?

166 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:02:02 pm reply quote

re: #161 Canadian Guy

Let's see how he handles this.

Prediction: His third leg won't be tingling.

167 runrabbitrun  8/29/08 2:02:05 pm reply quote

re: #116 Naso Tang

Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but I don't think it was Einstein who gave us "proofs"; it was other scientists who provided the real world validations.

In our family, we have science majors and philosophy majors. The science majors (grandpa rabbit included) would rake me over the coals for mis-reporting that sequence of events! Apologies for the error.

168 CalipHater  8/29/08 2:02:07 pm reply quote

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

Why would ID or creationism be any different then Chuck? Let the left attack her for her beliefs, that will backfire

169 Perry  8/29/08 2:02:43 pm reply quote

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.


Since she has a new baby with Down's, her choice to continue that pregnancy to term speaks volumes to me. She would have known by 24 weeks or so that the baby had Down's.

170 Ringo the Gringo  8/29/08 2:02:45 pm reply quote
But this is going to be a point of attack for the left...

I already saw one Lefty blog today refer to Palin as "Bobby Jindal with nice legs".


/...can't remember wich site it was.

171 formercorpsman  8/29/08 2:02:45 pm reply quote

re: #127 wolfie

Here's the wind up, he delivers a breaking ball, ......

That ball is outta here.

172 Fenway_Nation  8/29/08 2:02:53 pm reply quote

BTW, how much experience does Palin have in international relations? I mean Alaska's got Canada on one side, the remotest stretch of Russia on the other and South Korea has some significant business interests in the state (all that Alaskan coal getting shipped there for starters).....

173 Thanos  8/29/08 2:02:55 pm reply quote

Sarah's exactly where I am at even though she's a Christian and I'm atheist. If it comes up in class I think it's something you must discuss enough to at least define what science is, and what it can't explain, and why supernatural explanations are not used in science.

We should watch out for attempts of the militant atheist teachers to use this as a jumping off point to belittle religious belief as much as we should watch out for the ID proponents using this as a vehicle to push their version of organized religion or beliefs.

174 Grok the Fullness  8/29/08 2:03:44 pm reply quote

re: #155 Salem

I have not read she is an evangelist. Do you know the diff? Seriously.

175 Lynn B.  8/29/08 2:03:59 pm reply quote

re: #153 Golem Akbar

I think that may be kind of like "picking flysh*t out of the pepper." We can agree to disagree. There are bigger fish to fry. [and any other cliche you can think of to express that idea]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry.

176 cliffster  8/29/08 2:04:06 pm reply quote

re: #150 LemonJoose

Hilary Rosen was visibly queasy as she was providing her comments on CNN. She looked like her lunch was not sitting well in her stomach. LOL!

What did she say? Tell me! Tell me!

177 garycooper  8/29/08 2:04:09 pm reply quote

re: #137 rabidfox

Gary Cooper: I'd love to see Gustov lose strength and become just a TD. But I don't think that will happen. But that 'less vulnerable' comment got under my skin a bit. Are you aware that parts of Missippi and Alabama were wiped out entirely? I know that NO got most of the press, but most of the damage was to the east and it was horrific.

No, I don't want anyone to get nailed by the hurricane. I was just expressing some concern for my friend and his family, even though I think he was a stubborn fool for rebuilding in New Orleans.

If I got to choose, I'd have Gustav do figure-8's over Cuba until he wears himself out.

178 alegrias  8/29/08 2:04:13 pm reply quote

re: #164 Salem

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

* * *
One issue totalitarian much? Re-education Gulag much? How progressive.

179 father_of_10  8/29/08 2:04:16 pm reply quote

re: #61 Catttt

I'm no expert, but my impression of the Mormon view is that it ties in somewhat with the laws of Termodynamics - matter can be neither created nor destroyed but is acted upon and changed in form. Spirit is eternal, as is matter. Spirit is in fact material. God organizied existing matter - He did not create matter out of nothing..

Correct me if I messed up, any LDSers in the audience.

I used to lie awake at night as a child, trying to understand how you could create something from nothing. I am guessing that Joseph Smith did also.

You are correct. Even spirits have matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7&8 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

180 theblakester  8/29/08 2:04:19 pm reply quote

Just watched CNN for laughs, they just sarcastically did a hit job on Palin, but i think they messed up. They just showed her behind the barrel of a shot gun!

181 jcm  8/29/08 2:04:21 pm reply quote

re: #169 Perry

Since she has a new baby with Down's, her choice to continue that pregnancy to term speaks volumes to me. She would have known by 24 weeks or so that the baby had Down's.

She did know it was Down's.

182 sparrowlake  8/29/08 2:04:26 pm reply quote

What about this part of the article?

"Asked for her personal views on evolution, Palin said, "I believe we have a creator."
She would not say whether her belief also allowed her to accept the theory of evolution as fact."


[Link: dwb.adn.com...]


I may be wrong but this sounds like trouble to me. I do have the feeling that Palin was a cynical nomination by McCain, in no small measure as an offering to the religious right.

183 StinkHammer  8/29/08 2:04:34 pm reply quote

re: #164 Salem

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

How would they do that? You can't be thrown out of political parties in the US -- they're composed of voluntary associations. If you register as a Republican, you ARE one -- "they" can't take that away from you. There are no Soviet-style party purges here.

184 Kenneth  8/29/08 2:04:42 pm reply quote

re: #161 Canadian Guy

Chris Matthews is now on MSNBC.

Chris Matthews? Isn't she that squeaky voiced lesbian who got a tingly leg from Obama? Maybe she'll have the hots for Sarah, too...

What? Am I missing something here?

185 Outrider  8/29/08 2:04:55 pm reply quote

re: #164 Salem

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

Wow. Were you marching with that group up in Denver this week?

186 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:05:09 pm reply quote

"Breakthrough nomination" says the Sea of Tranquility-faced Andrea Mitchell.

187 Bookworm  8/29/08 2:05:16 pm reply quote

I'm evolution all the way, but I think that we do our children a profound disservice by pretending in the classroom that other ideas don't exist. I would teach children what the creationists believe -- and then explain that these are matters of faith, and that in school we're limited to teaching science, with science showing, etc., etc.

The problem with shutting down issues in public schools is that, invariably, the issues that get shut down tend to trend towards the Righter sight of the spectrum, with the Lefts gaining hegemony over the curriculum. Give kids information, facts, and analytical abilities. If they're taught facts and analysis, they'll do okay -- and they'll be able to make the intelligent distinction between faith and science, giving each its rightful place without jettisoning either.

188 WrathofG-d  8/29/08 2:05:39 pm reply quote

re: #139 Charles

Except, as I heard numerous times on the Dem radio stations, that "Palin is only one heartbeat away from the POTUS seat" ...and McCain isn't that young or healthy...

189 Cygnus  8/29/08 2:05:46 pm reply quote

re: #95 kcladderman

Exactly ! Look how many people believe fire can melt steel!
///////

I guess the Bethlehem Steel plant in West Seattle is nothing but a big hoax perpetuated by the Bushitlerhalliburton cabal. How do they fake all that molten metal?
////////

190 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:06:00 pm reply quote

re: #176 cliffster

What did she say? Tell me! Tell me!

OMG! Me too! I can't wait to see that video. Linky?

191 Thanos  8/29/08 2:06:18 pm reply quote

Also, to help you understand where she is coming from, I lived in Alaska over 20 years, I never met one hard core fundamentalist in my time there.

I worked for a Christian company for five of those years, and the hardest core they got was making sure you chose a gift out of the catalog they would pass out every year on top of your bonus.

192 cliffster  8/29/08 2:06:46 pm reply quote

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

I agree in general. But I think that if the Republicans win this election, you will see a much more active Vice President than we normally have. And that's not just based on the hype that is ensuing right now and will fade after the RNC. I think McCain will keep Palin in the forefront and you will see her face and hear her voice a lot.

193 talon_262  8/29/08 2:06:52 pm reply quote

re: #189 Cygnus

I guess the Bethlehem Steel plant in West Seattle is nothing but a big hoax perpetuated by the Bushitlerhalliburton cabal. How do they fake all that molten metal?
////////

Shhhh....it's not molten steel, it's molten lava!

;-P

194 Old Hippie Vet  8/29/08 2:07:04 pm reply quote

So what.

I have said a lot of things over the years, big deal. I look at the over all picture not some little thing here or there that I don't agree with.

There is no one I totally agree with 100% of the time. Everyone has there own thing and I don't sweat the small stuff.

I will ask this question; WHO DO YOU WANT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AN AMERICAN OR A COMMUNIST?

195 Catttt  8/29/08 2:07:29 pm reply quote

OT - OMG Peggy Noonan is my home girl!

You have GOT to watch this. - via roberth's link.

I'm going to save this video. Talk about noticing the emperor has no clothes!

196 talon_262  8/29/08 2:07:47 pm reply quote

re: #194 Old Hippie Vet

So what.

I have said a lot of things over the years, big deal. I look at the over all picture not some little thing here or there that I don't agree with.

There is no one I totally agree with 100% of the time. Everyone has there own thing and I don't sweat the small stuff.

I will ask this question; WHO DO YOU WANT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AN AMERICAN OR A COMMUNIST?

Bingo...

197 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:07:58 pm reply quote

re: #194 Old Hippie Vet

WHO DO YOU WANT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AN AMERICAN OR A COMMUNIST?

Christ, Jane Fonda's not running too is she? ;)

198 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 2:08:02 pm reply quote

re: #127 wolfie

My father, a veteran of many years on school boards in one of the Greater Chicagoland suburbs, was recruited to be part of what was called "the executive service corps," which was supposed to teach the new local neighborhood Chicago school boards about such things as budgets, building maintenance, and other basics about running a school system.

He initially endeared himself to the school district he was assigned to by informing them bluntly that he was not there for them, but for him and his children, because he and we had to live in the same world with the children this district would serve--and he didn't want to see a bunch of uneducated feral children screwing up society.

In the end, he quit in frustration. The new local school boards were only interested in getting their place at the public trough, and the teachers, if they tried to discipline children, could not get parental backup; the parents would come in outraged and screaming the house down because their little gangbanger had been given a slap on the wrist.

The experience ripped whatever vestigial liberal ganglia he still had right out of him.

199 alegrias  8/29/08 2:08:07 pm reply quote

re: #183 StinkHammer

How would they do that? You can't be thrown out of political parties in the US -- they're composed of voluntary associations. If you register as a Republican, you ARE one -- "they" can't take that away from you. There are no Soviet-style party purges here.

* * *
Progressive purges are still purges. Very sovietski!

200 father_of_10  8/29/08 2:08:07 pm reply quote

re: #96 Naso Tang

From what I have read of Joseph Smith, what he though mostly about was when he was next going to get laid, and how he was going to make the case that those golden plates would never actually be seen by anyone.

I guess you haven't read much about Joseph Smith then, have you? Do you stay up late at night thinking of ways to offend people?

201 Lizard by the Bay  8/29/08 2:08:10 pm reply quote

Today when I was driving into work I heard this exchange between the KCBS 740 morning anchors about Palin:

Susan Leigh Taylor: "I don't know if Palin will pull voted from Hillary. I mean, she's not a feminist."

Stan Bunger: "Wait a minute, I don't think you can fairly say that!"

Susan Leigh Taylor: "Well, we know she's not a liberal. She's a Republican, after all."

Well, isn't that adorable. The media now decide which women may call themselves femenists and which can't.

202 sparrowlake  8/29/08 2:08:12 pm reply quote

re: #87 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Sounds reasonable to me. What is learning without the ability to ask questions of one's self and one's teachers?

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. the teacher should cut off the debate and ell the students that creationaism is not a subject for debate in science class.

203 Moe Katz  8/29/08 2:08:14 pm reply quote

The political columnists were saying Mac needed a pro-lifer to shore up the traditional GOP support base, so I suppose that was an important factor in choosing her. On the other hand, I can't imagine this enticing too many disgruntled HRC supporters to cross party lines. I suppose you can't have it both ways.

204 kcladderman  8/29/08 2:08:14 pm reply quote

re: #189 Cygnus

I guess the Bethlehem Steel plant in West Seattle is nothing but a big hoax perpetuated by the Bushitlerhalliburton cabal. How do they fake all that molten metal?
////////

He is an evil genius moron I tell you!
///////////////

205 jcm  8/29/08 2:08:27 pm reply quote

re: #188 WrathofG-d

Except, as I heard numerous times on the Dem radio stations, that "Palin is only one heartbeat away from the POTUS seat" ...and McCain isn't that young or healthy...

Well, I'll take a western small town mom as POTUS over a Marxist Chicago Community Organizer any day of the week.

206 Dianna  8/29/08 2:08:28 pm reply quote

re: #127 wolfie

It's a sad thing, but you'd be surprised how little people making grants want to hear about solid basics. They've convinced themselves that the old methods have failed, and are looking for something new, different and exciting.

Nothing annoys me as much as watching a school play buzz-word bingo in a grant request. Especially since they will insist on using the word "relevant." Kids have no idea what's relevant, or is going to be relevant later.

207 Alberta Oil Peon  8/29/08 2:08:33 pm reply quote

re: #106 Junior

The fact that this would be an issue for some of you is proof that the entire debate of evolution against whatever else you want to call it is a religious one as much for the former as it is for the latter. Evolution has become a religion with just as many zealots.

Totally false, but exactly what I've come to expect from the ID-bots. Because their thinking is based totally on "revealed wisdom" and not upon reason, they are constitutionally incapable of understanding that not everybody thinks that way.

208 Perry  8/29/08 2:08:34 pm reply quote

re: #181 jcm

She did know it was Down's.

Thanks. 44-year-old eggs are pretty fragile.

209 Lizard by the Bay  8/29/08 2:08:43 pm reply quote

PIMF: feminists

210 Dave the.....  8/29/08 2:08:51 pm reply quote

So several lizards are saying she shouldn't be VP because she's a traditional Christian (who used to smoke pot)? Nice.

211 wolfie  8/29/08 2:08:52 pm reply quote

re: #133 buzzsawmonkey

Your view is consistent, I'll give you that.

It is also shortsighted.

It is also bigoted.
Who are these "evangelicals?"
How big a group is this? Is it uniform?
Are people uni-dimensional?
Are they defined by one factor?

I have heard Republicans say, "Let's throw out the evangelicals and keep the small-govt, free-market people!"
Outside of using the absurdly broad term "evangelical,"
it never seems to occur to them that there is a HUGE overlap there.

212 Cygnus  8/29/08 2:08:58 pm reply quote

Karl Rove is on Hannity right now.

213 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:09:01 pm reply quote

Pat Buchanan. "She's the Queen of Wascilla, for chrissakes!". Shoot me now.

214 theheat  8/29/08 2:09:07 pm reply quote

re: #119 Salem

It's a vicious circle. You don't vote for the religious dogma and you get Obama. You vote for the Republican party, and religion comes standard on the side, like fries with your burger, and empowers that part of the agenda. In reality, you don't want the fries at all. You want the burger - just the damned burger - thank you very much.

It's like choosing between death by firing squad or death by hanging. Either way, the alternatives are unpalatable, you feel like a sellout, and have done zero to curtail the religious agenda from attaching itself to the party until the end of time.

I don't want fries with that. Nor do I want Obama. I want a stiff drink.

215 Grok the Fullness  8/29/08 2:09:32 pm reply quote

re: #173 Thanos


Thank you and also to discuss what religion is, seeing as our leaders are always saying "God bless America" and so forth.

216 jcm  8/29/08 2:09:32 pm reply quote

re: #201 Lizard by the Bay

Today when I was driving into work I heard this exchange between the KCBS 740 morning anchors about Palin:

Well, isn't that adorable. The media now decide which women may call themselves femenists and which can't.

Clarence Thomas isn't black.
Sarah Palin isn't a women.

Both have to be liberal to be genuine.

217 theblakester  8/29/08 2:09:55 pm reply quote

CNN just had the Cafferty File on and hid made fun of Palin getting the Eskimo vote, and laughed thinking it was funny. Try laughing with any other derogatory comment about any other race and see what happens. What an Joke he is for a Journalist.

218 Catttt  8/29/08 2:09:57 pm reply quote

re: #197 vbspurs

Christ, Jane Fonda's not running too is she? ;)

At a group lunch at work yesterday, a co-worker asked "why are Dems protesting at a Dem convention?"

I said "because they are communists and anarchists."

Sense of major puzzlement on co-worker's face.

Most people don't know there are any commies in the USA, and anarchists? WTF is that?

219 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:10:23 pm reply quote

"A bright girl". Pat, she's a woman or lady. Chris Matthews is making the point. Wow, I actually agree with him for once.

220 Cygnus  8/29/08 2:10:27 pm reply quote

re: #117 Who Watches the Watchmen?

It's following Camille's path.

Oh, crap. Poor Biloxi.

221 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 2:10:45 pm reply quote

re: #211 wolfie

As a way for everyone to calm down, individual evan-jello desserts are now being served on the sideboard.

222 cliffster  8/29/08 2:10:48 pm reply quote

re: #202 sparrowlake

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. the teacher should cut off the debate and ell the students that creationaism is not a subject for debate in science class.

Sure, but not in a See No Evil, Hear No Evil kind of way. LAAAA LA LA LA I CANNOT HEAR THIS CHILD TALK ABOUT RELIGION! Just say that discussion belongs in a social studies class, not a science class.

223 Irene NYC  8/29/08 2:10:51 pm reply quote

Nasty give and take on Fox just now about why Obama ripped Sarah Palin about being the mayor of a small town by Megan Kelly and an Obama spokesmen. Megan practically had steam coming out of her ears and you could just see how angry she was becoming because of the disrespect being exhibited toward Palin. For someone as cool as she usually this, it was pretty shocking.

I think Obama's camp had better learn to tread carefully.

224 David IV of Georgia  8/29/08 2:10:51 pm reply quote

I don't think that "Creationism" belongs in science class, except perhaps as an aside of what some people believe (including me) concerning origins. Most everything about Creation is unverifiable scientifically. Just teach science. Most people are smart enough to figure things out if you don't baffle them with bulls**t.

225 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:11:24 pm reply quote

re: #218 Catttt

Most people don't know there are any commies in the USA, and anarchists? WTF is that?

Lack of higher education?

;)

226 Canadian Guy  8/29/08 2:11:38 pm reply quote

re: #195 Catttt

OT - OMG Peggy Noonan is my home girl!

You have GOT to watch this. - via roberth's link.

I'm going to save this video. Talk about noticing the emperor has no clothes!

That was hillarious, especially the two-headed baby without health care who is being used a bowling ball at the bowling alley.

227 Perplexed  8/29/08 2:11:46 pm reply quote

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Had to ding you down over the scientifically illiterate comment. As to schools teaching science, I want it taught as "this is what we now know" rather than this is an absolute fact. Teach scientific method for investigating anything. Going back just 50 years has many branches of science having taught 'facts' only to have those 'facts' disproven (i.e. the amount of iron in spinach - Popeye be damned).

Current gorbal warming comments show signs of data mining for information that agrees with the warming hysteria. All that means is we have scientists who mislead/exaggerate/falsify for whatever reason reports.

228 sparrowlake  8/29/08 2:11:55 pm reply quote

re: #202 sparrowlake

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. The teacher should cut off the debate and tell the students that creationism is not a subject for debate in science class.

PIMF

229 maddogg  8/29/08 2:11:56 pm reply quote

re: #198 buzzsawmonkey

Some would say he got thumped upside his head with reality, sadly.

230 Fenway_Nation  8/29/08 2:11:59 pm reply quote

Aaaaaaaargh! Matthews and Buchanan!

/my eyes and ears!

231 Perry  8/29/08 2:12:53 pm reply quote

re: #213 vbspurs

Pat Buchanan. "She's the Queen of Wascilla, for chrissakes!". Shoot me now.

I'd much rather shoot Pa....never mind.

232 NY Nana  8/29/08 2:13:00 pm reply quote

re: #138 Lynn B.

She is not alone: McCain Speech Tied to Intelligent Design Group Draws Fire

Here is a part of the article:

Feb. 22, 2007 —

Friday at noon in Seattle, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., will speak at a luncheon event being co-presented by the Discovery Institute -- the controversial organization that promotes intelligent design theory and combats Darwinism.

McCain is being hammered by a liberal group for associating with the Discovery Institute, although the luncheon is being formally hosted by the CityClub of Seattle and the Seattle World Affairs Council, with the Discovery Institute is one of nine organizations "co-presenting" the event.

"Despite its self-proclaimed position as an unbiased think tank, the Discovery Institute has played a central role in the religious right's national campaign to undermine science education," Campaign to Defend the Constitution co-director Clark Stevens wrote to McCain Thursday. "Under the guise of 'teaching the controversy' the Institute has strived to discredit the theory of evolution -- a theory that has withstood decades of critical analysis from the scientific community -- and replace it with a religiously motivated pseudo-science with no scientific standing."

McCain's campaign pooh-poohs the controversy.

"He's addressing the Seattle World Affairs Council and CityClub of Seattle and there are a number of co-presenters as well, of which the Discovery Institute is one," says McCain exploratory committee spokesman Brian Jones.

Jones says he has seen the senator's speech and it "will focus on issues relating to foreign affairs, specifically about the Pacific Rim."

The Campaign to Defend the Constitution's Timi Gerson says the subject of McCain's speech doesn't matter, and is not the issue.

"It's outrageous for a nationally respected political leader of his stature -- who is furthermore a member of the Senate Committee charged with overseeing science -- to do anything co-sponsored by a group with an explicit anti-science agenda that is trying to push theology in the classroom," Gerson said.[...]

Did McCain even know what the Discovery Institute is?

233 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:13:01 pm reply quote

Chris Matthews thinks that only a man, or a Neo-Con can be tough.

Ever shoot a moose, Chris? Takes balls of the courageous kind, not the pendulous kind.

234 talon_262  8/29/08 2:13:36 pm reply quote

re: #230 Fenway_Nation

Aaaaaaaargh! Matthews and Buchanan!

/my eyes and ears!

No one should be shocked, because Matthews and Buchanan are on the same side...the wrong one

235 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 2:13:41 pm reply quote

The dems are now saying (quietly) that if McCain dies in office, Sarah will be too inexperienced to carry on. They can be accused of ageism, I guess. But that is one of their arguments.

236 Thanos  8/29/08 2:13:47 pm reply quote

Headed out to pick up supplies for the weekend, back a bit later :)

237 FrogMarch  8/29/08 2:13:58 pm reply quote

The left-wing attack machine is going to come after her with everything they have. Nothing is off limits. and if they can use half-truths and incomplete quotes to do it- it's to be expected.

238 Perplexed  8/29/08 2:14:00 pm reply quote

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

That's true of virtually everything a VP does. Most fade into the woodwork.

239 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 2:14:01 pm reply quote

re: #229 maddogg

Some would say he got thumped upside his head with reality, sadly.

He was already conservative when he went in, but he thought that the people involved would at least be interested in the welfare of their own children and their own community. He was disabused of that belief in short order.

240 Perry  8/29/08 2:14:07 pm reply quote

re: #231 Perry

I'd much rather shoot Pa....never mind.


Please delete that garbage.

241 Lynn B.  8/29/08 2:14:20 pm reply quote

re: #210 Dave the.....

So several lizards are saying she shouldn't be VP because she's a traditional Christian (who used to smoke pot)? Nice.

Which several lizards would that be? Link (or comment number) please?

242 StinkHammer  8/29/08 2:14:21 pm reply quote

re: #201 Lizard by the Bay

Well, isn't that adorable. The media now decide which women may call themselves femenists and which can't.

Of course, which is why I'm standing by my assessment that not too many Hillary supporters will now throw their votes to McCain simply because of Palin, the woman V.P. -- those "feminists" are LEFTISTS FIRST, who don't consider conservative/Republican female political figures to be representative of "true" feminist ideals. They want a liberal female POTUS, not simply a female POTUS.

243 talon_262  8/29/08 2:14:27 pm reply quote

re: #233 vbspurs

Chris Matthews thinks that only a man, or a Neo-Con can be tough.

Ever shoot a moose, Chris? Takes balls of the courageous kind, not the pendulous kind.

Chrissy doesn't even have the pendulous kind...

244 goddessoftheclassroom  8/29/08 2:14:29 pm reply quote

re: #235 Golem Akbar

The dems are now saying (quietly) that if McCain dies in office, Sarah will be too inexperienced to carry on. They can be accused of ageism, I guess. But that is one of their arguments.

Palin has more executive experience right now than Obama does.

245 Salem  8/29/08 2:14:32 pm reply quote

re: #183 StinkHammer

How would they do that? You can't be thrown out of political parties in the US -- they're composed of voluntary associations. If you register as a Republican, you ARE one -- "they" can't take that away from you. There are no Soviet-style party purges here.

I'm saying that the evangelicals should do their thing at church and keep it at church. Not in the government. Kowtowing to people who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and push for that to be taught in school is, unarguably, not moving into the future, no matter how it's re-framed. Evangelicals who want to leave the public science class alone I don't have such an issue with, but they still ought to keep it in the church or at their homes. Since I have neither the power nor inclination to initiate a "soviet-style purge", then I guess I'm just expressing my opinion that the Republican party would be much better off without the toxic back=sliding influence of the evangelicals.

246 alegrias  8/29/08 2:14:35 pm reply quote

re: #230 Fenway_Nation

Aaaaaaaargh! Matthews and Buchanan!

/my eyes and ears!

* * *
Both are Catholic like Palin.

247 maddogg  8/29/08 2:14:37 pm reply quote

re: #233 vbspurs

Chris Matthews thinks that only a man, or a Neo-Con can be tough.

Ever shoot a moose, Chris? Takes balls of the courageous kind, not the pendulous kind.

Chrissy cannot relate to male genitalia....

248 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:14:42 pm reply quote

Why aren't they talking about about what they're not talking about?

(Wait, what)

I mean, this announcement COMPLETELY eclipsed the Obamagasmic Show last night. If only for that, I love Sarah Palin.

249 CIA Reject  8/29/08 2:14:51 pm reply quote

re: #146 Kenneth

Agree with your assessment 100%. So I guess that makes folks like us "philosophical Creationists" versus people like the Discovery Institute who fancy themselves as "scientific Creationists" Big difference.

And that difference, IMHO, is a real hindrance to the debate here. Actually the debate itself is, again IMHO, mis-framed as it appears to me to be a surrogate debate for the real issue of fundamentalism vs reason.

But I'm really not interested in going there right now...

250 formercorpsman  8/29/08 2:15:16 pm reply quote

re: #119 Salem

You know Salem, while some people have very strong opinions about this subject, I have never felt the need to nail folks to the wall that fall on either side of the coin.

While I am not an Evangelical, they have been devoted members of conservatism, and probably find a way to agree with 70-80% of the conservative platform.

Moreover, I find them to be absolutely concerned with doing the right thing, honest in what believe, and love this country.

This woman, and her family, put their money with their mouth is.

She has a son that enlisted for military service in 2007. She delivered a child, knowing it to be born with Downs Syndrome, and kept to her principles. From what it appears, she has walked to beat of her own drum, and I respect that.

Your post concerns me. If you think that somehow, discharging a significant portion of your party's base, who actually may be able to meet you in the middle for a majority of that which you agree, but for ideological purposes would relish in the destruction of those would in large numbers, offer up their service to defend you and your way of life, perhaps you reevaluate where you are most comfortable, and who can most likely support your point of view.

251 Outrider  8/29/08 2:15:17 pm reply quote

re: #235 Golem Akbar

The dems are now saying (quietly) that if McCain dies in office, Sarah will be too inexperienced to carry on. They can be accused of ageism, I guess. But that is one of their arguments.

Interesting. And BO has .....this experience does he?

252 Dianna  8/29/08 2:15:18 pm reply quote

re: #202 sparrowlake

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. the teacher should cut off the debate and ell the students that creationaism is not a subject for debate in science class.

Actually, this is a great teaching moment. They can discuss what makes science science, and what a scientific theory really means. And then, it's just a matter of doing it coolly, and not offending believers.

253 Catttt  8/29/08 2:15:38 pm reply quote

re: #226 Canadian Guy

That was hillarious, especially the two-headed baby without health care who is being used a bowling ball at the bowling alley.

...and the lady with the exploding feet. :D I thought Joe was going to fall out of his chair. :D

254 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:16:00 pm reply quote

Perry, I updinged, but I agree. Best not to court the wrong impression. I got what you mean though. :)

255 Alberta Oil Peon  8/29/08 2:16:14 pm reply quote

re: #108 CIA Reject

I'm a little late to the party here, and this is not exactly my favorite topic, but I think we could all benefit from some clarification in terms-ie what do we mean by "Creationist".

For example: I believe that G*d is ultimately responsible for the creation of the Universe, and I take that as an article of Faith, not of science. In fact I find any attempt to "scientifically prove" what I take as an article of Faith to be an affront to my Faith.

Does that make me a "Creationist"?

I can't speak for Charles, but not in my book. "Creationist", with the scare quotes I would take as meaning a "Young-Earth Creationist", who thinks the Earth is only some 6000 years old, and takes the Book of Genesis as literal truth. This is the kind of creationist that runs the Discovery Institute, and to whom they pander.

If your beliefs run more along the line that God created the Universe, and the Earth within it, and that evolution is the mechanism he chose to populate it with life, well then, I have no problem with that. We have moved the debate to the realm of metaphysics, which is its proper home.

256 alegrias  8/29/08 2:16:27 pm reply quote

re: #235 Golem Akbar

The dems are now saying (quietly) that if McCain dies in office, Sarah will be too inexperienced to carry on. They can be accused of ageism, I guess. But that is one of their arguments.

* * *
Attack Mac, but Mr. Biden's brain aneurysms aren't a problem however! Stay classy dems.

257 auldtrafford  8/29/08 2:16:46 pm reply quote

The plain fact of the matter is that neither theory really explains the origin-of-everything. Evolution is good science, and explains a lot, but very simply doesn't explain what we evolved from. The "big bang" is a good place to stop the buck, but (i) where did all the stuff that went "bang" come from, (ii) what was here before the big bang, and (iii) what's beyond the limits of the expanding universe?

Creationism simply provides a way to get to the same questions more quickly: i.e., where did "God" come from?

In my mind, we ain't ever going to figure it all out, so why don't we spend our time fishing instead?

Oh, and I like Palin; she's sharp, a good speaker and charismatic as hell. I doubt she'll really attract much of the Hillary vote - she's too obviously conservative, and essentially the anti-Hillary. Doesn't bother me. She's the only V-P pick he could have made that will actually make me reconsider my decision to abstain.

258 Canadian Guy  8/29/08 2:17:01 pm reply quote

re: #253 Catttt

...and the lady with the exploding feet. :D I thought Joe was going to fall out of his chair. :D

Even Mika lost it.

259 Sharmuta  8/29/08 2:17:05 pm reply quote
She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum.

Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

I can live with this. She can believe whatever she'd like, she won't be able to push it in science class and the courts won't let her anyways.

260 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:17:07 pm reply quote

"I want to outlaw abortion in all circumstances". What? Chris Matthews is insane. Newsflash, I know.

261 cliffster  8/29/08 2:17:08 pm reply quote

OT: just got a great email..

John Edwards has been banned from making a speech at the Democratic convention for having an affair and lying about it.

In his place, Bill Clinton will be speaking.

... what am I missing?

262 LemonJoose  8/29/08 2:17:31 pm reply quote

re: #176 cliffster

What did she say? Tell me! Tell me!

She tried to downplay the idea from other commentators that McCain's VP pick was a bold, "outside the box" decision, and said something to the effect that the pick was insulting to women, and Hillary's supporters wouldn't vote for McCain just because you "change one skirt for another skirt." She implied that Hillary would have been a qualified VP pick, but Palin was not.

263 really grumpy big dog Johnson  8/29/08 2:17:48 pm reply quote

re: #187 Bookworm

I'm evolution all the way, but I think that we do our children a profound disservice by pretending in the classroom that other ideas don't exist. I would teach children what the creationists believe -- and then explain that these are matters of faith, and that in school we're limited to teaching science, with science showing, etc., etc.

The problem with shutting down issues in public schools is that, invariably, the issues that get shut down tend to trend towards the Righter sight of the spectrum, with the Lefts gaining hegemony over the curriculum. Give kids information, facts, and analytical abilities. If they're taught facts and analysis, they'll do okay -- and they'll be able to make the intelligent distinction between faith and science, giving each its rightful place without jettisoning either.

That's downright beautiful, Bookworm.

264 Captain Faris  8/29/08 2:17:53 pm reply quote

For the record, I agree with Charles on opposing any education policy agenda requiring ID or alternatives to Evolution to be taught as science in public schools or requiring it to be taught as philosophy or sociology or literature or in any way.

I have a degree in science education (74) and was taught how to teach evolution. I was also discriminated against by the professors because I let my skepticism for the scientific arguments of evolutionary speciation be known. I never taught science (I was an intelligence analyst instead and my graduate study was in international relations) but I would have taught everything straight out of the evolution-concurring textbooks and not added anything to the contrary. I believe that schools should teach the consensus. If a minority viewpoint exists that happens to be correct, it may mature and become persuasive over time. The best arguments would, so to speak, survive in the dog-eat-dog world of competition.

I, too, am glad that this appears to be the position held by Governor Palin.

Though I support and teach (in other venues) what the Bible (in the original languages and using language as language is really used) says about God's role as Creator, I do not believe or teach (or advocate) every whimsical doctrine or dogma that so-called churches have tried to dish out. Orthodoxy is NOT a sign of accuracy or truthfullness; in fact, I always assume the opposite.

And thanks, Charles, for your (customary) fairness in reporting on this issue.

PC

265 Perry  8/29/08 2:17:55 pm reply quote

Oy.

My excuse: I was in the car-repair waiting room half the day, then gave blood. And trying to supervise homework.

266 Moe Katz  8/29/08 2:18:26 pm reply quote

re: #187 Bookworm

267 Salem  8/29/08 2:18:35 pm reply quote

re: #214 theheat

I've often said that the choice between voting Democrat or Republican is the choice between being screwed fast or being screwed slowly. Sometimes it seems like we may as well just get it over with. Get a nice fireworks display at the end instead of a heap of smoking duds.

268 Outrider  8/29/08 2:18:38 pm reply quote

re: #245 Salem

I'm saying that the evangelicals should do their thing at church and keep it at church. Not in the government. Kowtowing to people who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and push for that to be taught in school is, unarguably, not moving into the future, no matter how it's re-framed. Evangelicals who want to leave the public science class alone I don't have such an issue with, but they still ought to keep it in the church or at their homes. Since I have neither the power nor inclination to initiate a "soviet-style purge", then I guess I'm just expressing my opinion that the Republican party would be much better off without the toxic back=sliding influence of the evangelicals.

Yeah. I'm guessing the government is better off with the secular values of Clinton and Edwards perhaps.

People are the sum product of their beliefs. Are you suggesting brain purging to remove any of these nasty evangelical beliefs prior to running for office? Or are they merely banned from public life under your beliefs?

269 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 2:18:47 pm reply quote

re: #244 goddessoftheclassroom

Palin has more executive experience right now than Obama does.


I think she's a winner on a lot of levels. I most appreciate the fact that as a woman, she's very "outdoorsy" yet still feminine. A lot of women are going to relate to that. And that's also a quality Hillary didn't have. Not to mention her executive experience. Alaska is known to be a very macho state, and she did well in that environment.

270 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:18:51 pm reply quote

Cliffster, LOL. Plus ça change...

271 Fenway_Nation  8/29/08 2:19:06 pm reply quote

Wow....I tuned into MSNBC (effectively tripling it's viewership).

Chrissy Matthews is a particularly bitter drama queen today, isn't she?

272 alegrias  8/29/08 2:19:22 pm reply quote

re: #245 Salem

* * *
Many of "those" people you despise & want to write off, volunteer to defend you & their country in hell holes, despite their different beliefs.

273 CIA Reject  8/29/08 2:19:27 pm reply quote

re: #155 Salem

I suppose you're right. I must say I'd really be more impressed with her if it weren't for her obvious evangelical bent.

I'm sorry, but I don't get an "obvious evangelical bent" out of the article that Charles posted above. Does anybody else?

Out of the dishonestly edited version from "Wired" maybe, but not from the whole story

274 Bobblehead  8/29/08 2:19:46 pm reply quote

I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm elated, walking on air, just thrilled. Besides making a brilliant pick McCain has stolen the whole weekend news cycle away from the other guy. Also I love her Audrey Hepburn Breakfast at Tiffany's hairdo.

275 maddogg  8/29/08 2:20:03 pm reply quote

re: #239 buzzsawmonkey

He was already conservative when he went in, but he thought that the people involved would at least be interested in the welfare of their own children and their own community. He was disabused of that belief in short order.

Their outlook is, I believe, a result of 40 years of indoctrination in the victim mentality which is so beloved and used by the left against those who are not capable of simple reasoning. An indoctrination the left will continue unless stopped in a most prejudicial way.

I am always shocked with I hear a nitwit say the Bush Administration has done nothing for them. I would be happy to report that any administration has done nothing to me.

276 sngnsgt  8/29/08 2:20:10 pm reply quote

I think Chris Matthews of "Softball" on PMSNBS is going to cry because Sarah Palin is anti-abortion, a woman's right to murder a baby!

277 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:20:19 pm reply quote

re: #262 LemonJoose

She implied that Hillary would have been a qualified VP pick, but Palin was not.

"I knew myself. I worked with myself. I am friends with myself. And Sarah Palin is no myself"

278 Cygnus  8/29/08 2:20:32 pm reply quote

re: #193 talon_262

Shhhh....it's not molten steel, it's molten lava!

;-P

Yeah, that's right! They ran a pipeline all the way from the Mt. Rainier magma chamber just so they could have their fake molten steel lava! I heard it on Greg Noory's show.

279 IslandLibertarian  8/29/08 2:20:47 pm reply quote

re: #161 Canadian Guy

Chris Matthews is now on MSNBC.

Let's see how he handles this.

Chris Matthews is a RACIST PIG!
He called Rice and Powell "Showcase appointments" = "Token N-word's"

280 vagabond trader  8/29/08 2:20:55 pm reply quote

Did Sarah and family sit in a church for nearly 2 decades listening to a racist, troofer preacher God damming Amerikka? Then honestly I find her privately held beliefs on God, evolution and whatever else a non starter.

281 cliffster  8/29/08 2:21:02 pm reply quote

re: #262 LemonJoose

Whatever. Let's go download some copyrighted music just to spite her.

282 DistantThunder  8/29/08 2:21:04 pm reply quote

Obama was right! Small town mayor clinging to her guns and her religion!

Be afraid blue states....very afraid.....Boo!

283 Son of the Black Dog  8/29/08 2:21:09 pm reply quote

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology.

Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

You're totally ridiculous.

284 Outrider  8/29/08 2:21:09 pm reply quote

re: #273 CIA Reject

I'm sorry, but I don't get an "obvious evangelical bent" out of the article that Charles posted above. Does anybody else?

Out of the dishonestly edited version from "Wired" maybe, but not from the whole story

No. But some people so despise anyone of an obvious Christian background that they themselves start sounding like these bandanna faced protesters wanting to purge any beliefs that don't mirror theirs..

285 keyword  8/29/08 2:21:18 pm reply quote

Perhaps evolution is part of creation.

/ducks

286 pegcity  8/29/08 2:21:21 pm reply quote

re: #242 StinkHammer

Of course, which is why I'm standing by my assessment that not too many Hillary supporters will now throw their votes to McCain simply because of Palin, the woman V.P. -- those "feminists" are LEFTISTS FIRST, who don't consider conservative/Republican female political figures to be representative of "true" feminist ideals. They want a liberal female POTUS, not simply a female POTUS.

clinton's many affairs proved that.

287 sparrowlake  8/29/08 2:22:00 pm reply quote

re: #252 Dianna

Actually, this is a great teaching moment. They can discuss what makes science science, and what a scientific theory really means. And then, it's just a matter of doing it coolly, and not offending believers.

That discussion belongs in the introduction of the textbook and in the very first class on day one of the science course - not during the classes which teach evolution. IMO.

288 Halman  8/29/08 2:22:02 pm reply quote

re: #250 formercorpsman

Very well put.

289 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:22:08 pm reply quote

They're interviewing the 21 yo owner of the blog, "Draft Sarah Palin Now".

Bless his heart!

290 StinkHammer  8/29/08 2:22:19 pm reply quote

re: #245 Salem

Yes, I'm quite sympathetic with your frustration at the notion that Creationism-hawking evangelicals tend to associate with the Republican party. I'm simply resigned to the fact that in a free country with free association, that's one of the consequences I have to bear -- that those whose opinions with which I strongly disagree can belong to the same political party as I. Nothing to be done on a practical level except present counter arguments when necessary and hope my side is triumphant.

291 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:22:34 pm reply quote

On Fox, obviously. Who else?

292 Golem Akbar  8/29/08 2:22:38 pm reply quote

re: #256 alegrias

* * *
Attack Mac, but Mr. Biden's brain aneurysms aren't a problem however! Stay classy dems.

You are right. Every hit they make ought to be countered. "You mention Sarah Palin's inexperience? What about Obama's, who wants to be president?" for example

293 Naso Tang  8/29/08 2:23:03 pm reply quote

re: #158 Kenneth

A bit of both, really. Einstein presented mathematical proofs for his theories. Various other scientists conducted the experiments which provided experimental proof.

Fair enough, based on what is meant by proofs. Hippies can also have proofs, it's just that they may be based on what is the definition of "is".

294 NY Nana  8/29/08 2:23:03 pm reply quote

re: #144 ploome hineni

Re Israel? Biden, the Demonrat VP candidate, seems to be a very biiiig question. We already know about Hussein.

/It's the little things, like cutting off aid to Israel.

295 Moe Katz  8/29/08 2:23:23 pm reply quote

re: #187 Bookworm

"I'm evolution all the way, but I think that we do our children a profound disservice by pretending in the classroom that other ideas don't exist. I would teach children what the creationists believe -- and then explain that these are matters of faith, and that in school we're limited to teaching science, with science showing, etc., etc."

Two objections:

1. Creationism is pseudoscience and has no place in a science curriculum. At best it obfuscates real scientific issues. You may as well teach the flat earth theory in geography class.

2. There are more sophisticated metaphysical alternatives to creationism that don't conflict with the science. Why teach the crude antiscientific creationism and not the more advanced forms of religious thought such as deism and process theism? Clearly, the science curriculum is not the place for these considerations.

296 DistantThunder  8/29/08 2:23:27 pm reply quote

re: #276 sngnsgt

I think Chris Matthews of "Softball" on PMSNBS is going to cry because Sarah Palin is anti-abortion, a woman's right to murder a baby!

Does she get to call obama "boy" like Jimmy Carter? I didn't think so - and she wouldn't even want to anyway. It's just those racists on the left like Biden and Carter that can't keep their mouths shut - and are still in office.

297 really grumpy big dog Johnson  8/29/08 2:23:41 pm reply quote

re: #279 IslandLibertarian

Chris Matthews is a RACIST PIG!
He called Rice and Powell "Showcase appointments" = "Token N-word's"

Not to disparage your point, but I stopped paying attention to Matthews years ago for exactly that same reason.

298 talon_262  8/29/08 2:23:51 pm reply quote

re: #278 Cygnus

Yeah, that's right! They ran a pipeline all the way from the Mt. Rainier magma chamber just so they could have their fake molten steel lava! I heard it on Greg Noory's show.

LMAO!

Seriously, George Noori's a decent enough guy, but I miss Art Bell on Coast-To-Coast AM...while the guests may have been oddballs, his presentation made it worth listening to. Got me through many late nights at work long ago..

299 spaceman  8/29/08 2:24:16 pm reply quote

My first chance to comment on the Palin pick. Initial thoughts:

What a moronic move. She's clearly picked only for the Demographic, but Hillary voters will not vote McCain anyway. She has zero experience, and undercuts the same attack on Obama. She doesn't bring the strength on economy that Romney would, doesn't help in a swing state, and has absolutely zero recognition factor.

I thought to find a lot of the same sentiment at LGF. Imagine my shock to find that this opinion is not much shared among the Lizards, and that in fact the choice seems to be winning exhuberent, fawning and enthusiastic praise.

I fully expect some major ding-downage. Go ahead, I apparently have it coming.

But ... Here's hoping that you are all right, and I'm severely in the ignorant wrong.

300 vagabond trader  8/29/08 2:25:02 pm reply quote

Also, Biden is no spring chicken at 66 in November, and he also survived a brain aneurysm, no small health matter and one which could recur. btw, where are the Obama's health records, or is he exempt from disclosing them?

302 wolfie  8/29/08 2:25:13 pm reply quote

re: #198 buzzsawmonkey

I'd love to have a chat with your dad!
My experience in public schools did the exact thing to me.
It purged me of whatever faith I had in do-good government.

It's funny how we often have to learn these things for ourselves.
My father was a die-hard New Dealer, eager to save the world, a specialist in what used to be called "undeveloped" countries.
After a decade in the field, he was a devoted disciple of Hayek and Friedman.

303 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:25:35 pm reply quote

re: #298 talon_262

Art Bell

Is he no longer on-air? I once or twice listened to his show. He was okayyy...but his LISTENERS, creepsville.

304 Pawn of the Oppressor  8/29/08 2:25:41 pm reply quote

re: #223 Irene NYC

Nasty give and take on Fox just now about why Obama ripped Sarah Palin about being the mayor of a small town by Megan Kelly and an Obama spokesmen. Megan practically had steam coming out of her ears and you could just see how angry she was becoming because of the disrespect being exhibited toward Palin. For someone as cool as she usually this, it was pretty shocking.

I think Obama's camp had better learn to tread carefully.

They won't. They are going to be viscious, condescending, and mean. She's small, she's pretty, she's new, and they are going to tear her down any way they can. She's a new Monica Lewinsky for them, and whatever principles they allegedly cling to will be flushed right down the double-standard-crapper if it means belittling and marginalizing anything she's ever done.

Just the fact that she's a Republican makes her a gender traitor, for starters.

305 LeePro  8/29/08 2:25:49 pm reply quote

re: #195 Catttt

OT - OMG Peggy Noonan is my home girl!

You have GOT to watch this. - via roberth's link.

I'm going to save this video. Talk about noticing the emperor has no clothes!

"Fatuous suck-upping"... ! ! !

You can't beat that with a stick! ! !

306 Irene NYC  8/29/08 2:25:57 pm reply quote

Megan Kelly covered the 2006 gubernatorial races and watched Palin debate. She believes Palin will be a nasty surprise for Biden.

Palin should do wonders for the Repubs in Ohio, PA, MI and other states in the area. She may even convince people to vote the entire party ticket.

Go Sarah!

307 Dianna  8/29/08 2:25:59 pm reply quote

re: #287 sparrowlake

Assume the kids were half asleep and not paying attention. It never hurts to go back to the basics.

308 DistantThunder  8/29/08 2:26:16 pm reply quote

Sean Hannity was reading postings from a pro-HIllary message board - and they were elated. One woman said she wanted to vote for Sarah so she could stick it to Obama - people have no idea how deep the wrath of a woman can go.

Ok, some of you know.

309 really grumpy big dog Johnson  8/29/08 2:26:26 pm reply quote

re: #299 spaceman

My first chance to comment on the Palin pick. Initial thoughts:

What a moronic move. She's clearly picked only for the Demographic, but Hillary voters will not vote McCain anyway. She has zero experience, and undercuts the same attack on Obama. She doesn't bring the strength on economy that Romney would, doesn't help in a swing state, and has absolutely zero recognition factor.

I thought to find a lot of the same sentiment at LGF. Imagine my shock to find that this opinion is not much shared among the Lizards, and that in fact the choice seems to be winning exhuberent, fawning and enthusiastic praise.

I fully expect some major ding-downage. Go ahead, I apparently have it coming.

But ... Here's hoping that you are all right, and I'm severely in the ignorant wrong.

Did you actually see her speak?

310 FrogMarch  8/29/08 2:26:30 pm reply quote

re: #242 StinkHammer

Of course, which is why I'm standing by my assessment that not too many Hillary supporters will now throw their votes to McCain simply because of Palin, the woman V.P. -- those "feminists" are LEFTISTS FIRST, who don't consider conservative/Republican female political figures to be representative of "true" feminist ideals. They want a liberal female POTUS, not simply a female POTUS.

A modern feminist is two things:

1. Male hater
2. Flaming Left-winger

I'm an old fashioned feminist - I care about fellow females across the globe without the desire to push a male-hating left-wing agenda.

I care about woman who are truly oppressed - not spoiled American women who think they have it bad.

Anyway - you are probably right. McCain might pick up a few votes - but not many, because as you say -- leftists are leftists first.

311 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:26:57 pm reply quote

re: #308 DistantThunder

Ok, some of you know.

Some of us who are women do.

312 Sunlight  8/29/08 2:27:00 pm reply quote

The only things I want from the federal govt are providing for the common defense (in the constitution) and rulesetting/busting of crooks in the financial arena (which I would call common defense, since it enables us to function). So whatever she wants to believe in her religion is her business, especially since she apparently isn't going to try to institute her way or the highway in educational curricula.

I'm actually more interested in something I read that said she was captain of her basketball team and some Christian athletes group... and led prayers before the games. This happened at my daughter's school. I don't really care except there are a couple of the girls who call out my daughter's Jewishness in various situations, making her quite uncomfortable. I would be curious as to whether Gov. Palin was in the mode of thinking it was her job to get people not in her religion to either switch over or feel embarrassed by the wording of her prayers and/or comments and teasing.

Actually, it wouldn't make me less excited by her selection as this topic won't be in her job description, but I'm hoping / wishing that they would cut it out and leave people alone in public places.

313 Colonel Panik  8/29/08 2:27:01 pm reply quote

re: #50 Fenway_Nation

'Mother I'd Like to F***', i.e. 'hot mom'

The Phillipine-based terrorist group Moro Islamic Liberation Front didn't really take that into consideration when they chose their acronym.

I think the Moro Islamic Liberation Front was in existence well before that acronym started in the pr0n world.

314 Pawn of the Oppressor  8/29/08 2:27:09 pm reply quote

re: #214 theheat

It's a vicious circle. You don't vote for the religious dogma and you get Obama. You vote for the Republican party, and religion comes standard on the side, like fries with your burger, and empowers that part of the agenda. In reality, you don't want the fries at all. You want the burger - just the damned burger - thank you very much.

It's like choosing between death by firing squad or death by hanging. Either way, the alternatives are unpalatable, you feel like a sellout, and have done zero to curtail the religious agenda from attaching itself to the party until the end of time.

I don't want fries with that. Nor do I want Obama. I want a stiff drink.

Get out of my head.

One burger please, just meat, with no fundie carbs on the side.

315 Irene NYC  8/29/08 2:27:18 pm reply quote

re: #250 formercorpsman

Very well put.

316 Fenway_Nation  8/29/08 2:27:19 pm reply quote

"What's really going on in Iraq?"

WTF is that supposed to mean, Chrissy?

317 pilgrimbill10  8/29/08 2:27:40 pm reply quote

Lizards: Here we are debating one's personal belief in one aspect of the many belief's a person has . Public education needs reformation at the least i.e. get back to the basics MATH READING SCIENCE HISTORY I. EDUCATION. ! pb10

318 Lynn B.  8/29/08 2:27:41 pm reply quote

re: #232 NY Nana

She is not alone: McCain Speech Tied to Intelligent Design Group Draws Fire

Here is a part of the article:


Did McCain even know what the Discovery Institute is?

Oh, brother. I'm about as anti-DI as it gets, but I don't think McCain should be turning down speaking opportunities like this just because one in nine of the co-sponsors happens to be a group of this ilk. It's not as if he's, you know, the keynote speaker at an ID fundraiser or anything.

I'm open to arguments to the contrary.

319 Cygnus  8/29/08 2:27:52 pm reply quote

re: #278 Cygnus

Yeah, that's right! They ran a pipeline all the way from the Mt. Rainier magma chamber just so they could have their fake molten steel lava! I heard it on Greg Noory's show.

Or is that Chuck Noory? Can't remember - darn chemtrails are screwing up my brain.
////

320 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 2:28:05 pm reply quote

re: #302 wolfie

I'd like to speak with him too, but that's been impossible for the last 9 years except via Ouija board.

321 Kreuzueber Halbmond  8/29/08 2:28:06 pm reply quote

re: #202 sparrowlake

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. the teacher should cut off the debate and ell the students that creationaism is not a subject for debate in science class.

You are absolutely right. Public school teachers are not qualified to teach spirituality; nor or many church pastors for that matter.

322 formercorpsman  8/29/08 2:28:16 pm reply quote

re: #288 Halman


Too many typos, but thanks.

I try to be rare in my criticisms because there are many great minds who offer excellent opinions here.

Salem has always been one of them.

That post disturbed me.

323 auldtrafford  8/29/08 2:28:23 pm reply quote

re: #295 Moe Katz

Interestingly, we were taught the "flat earth" theory in High School - in history class. And we examined why people thought that, and why they changed the theory, etc. etc. Good analogy, maybe?

Come to think of it, they never actually said the "flat earth" theory was wrong, either. Kinda left it to us to decide.

324 Sharmuta  8/29/08 2:28:27 pm reply quote

I thought Sarah was an inspired choice- not only does she play to the demographic, she plays to the base. John McCain killed tow birds with one stone. Brilliant.

325 LeePro  8/29/08 2:28:49 pm reply quote

re: #187 Bookworm

I'm evolution all the way, but I think that we do our children a profound disservice by pretending in the classroom that other ideas don't exist. I would teach children what the creationists believe -- and then explain that these are matters of faith, and that in school we're limited to teaching science, with science showing, etc., etc.

The problem with shutting down issues in public schools is that, invariably, the issues that get shut down tend to trend towards the Righter sight of the spectrum, with the Lefts gaining hegemony over the curriculum. Give kids information, facts, and analytical abilities. If they're taught facts and analysis, they'll do okay -- and they'll be able to make the intelligent distinction between faith and science, giving each its rightful place without jettisoning either.

BRAVO!
You haven't commented here very much, but you certainly should!
I welcome your balanced remarks!

326 Salem  8/29/08 2:28:50 pm reply quote

Yep, apparently a large number here are hurt by the notion that evangelicals should keep their religion out of politics (even though that rules out any kind of "big-tent" that is required to win elections in the foreseeable future) and that anyone could even express that belief. But I think many of the founding fathers would agree. Even without knowing about evolution.

Obviously, that means I'm planning them all from the dead in a voodoo-style ritual so they can lead a soviet-style purge to remove evangelicals. It couldn't simply be my educated opinion that I'm entitled to.

327 wolfie  8/29/08 2:29:01 pm reply quote

re: #206 Dianna

Interesting perspective, Dianna.
It's not an encouraging scenario. Sigh.

Maybe educational conservatives....you know, the kind who think kids should learn the multiplication tables.....should learn to present their programs in multi-cult-neo-progressivese!

328 theblakester  8/29/08 2:29:04 pm reply quote

Does any LGFer's know if what Glenn Beck on CNN just said? He said something about the bridge to know where. Palin told them to take the money and shove it because it was a waste of taxpayers money, and that her state didn't need or want the money and sent it back.

329 really grumpy big dog Johnson  8/29/08 2:29:06 pm reply quote

re: #304 Pawn of the Oppressor

They won't. They are going to be viscious, condescending, and mean. She's small, she's pretty, she's new, and they are going to tear her down any way they can. She's a new Monica Lewinsky for them, and whatever principles they allegedly cling to will be flushed right down the double-standard-crapper if it means belittling and marginalizing anything she's ever done.

Just the fact that she's a Republican makes her a gender traitor, for starters.

The pushier the Obama camp gets about Palin the better. If you want bad campaign maneuvers, that's at the very top of the list.

330 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:29:06 pm reply quote

Barack Obama called Governor Palin, and spoke to her several minutes.

"Sweetie. You're a terrific candidate. Good luck (but not too much luck). Be careful clinging to your guns. Ciao!"

331 Fat Jolly Penguin  8/29/08 2:29:09 pm reply quote

re: #319 Cygnus

Or is that Chuck Noory? Can't remember - darn chemtrails are screwing up my brain.
////

I believe it's George Noory.

332 pilgrimbill10  8/29/08 2:29:13 pm reply quote

PIMF i.e. education

333 Sharmuta  8/29/08 2:29:19 pm reply quote

re: #324 Sharmuta

Err- two birds. PIMF.

334 Cygnus  8/29/08 2:29:25 pm reply quote

re: #300 vagabond trader

Also, Biden is no spring chicken at 66 in November, and he also survived a brain aneurysm, no small health matter and one which could recur. btw, where are the Obama's health records, or is he exempt from disclosing them?

The Chosen One can heal himself.

335 jcm  8/29/08 2:29:41 pm reply quote

re: #319 Cygnus

Or is that Chuck Noory? Can't remember - darn chemtrails are screwing up my brain.
////

Sorry!, Flight 3 Bravo-86 didn't check it's do not spray list last Tuesday, won't happen again.

336 Ward Cleaver  8/29/08 2:29:59 pm reply quote

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

Snobs.

337 Scorch  8/29/08 2:30:27 pm reply quote

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

So I guess your saying progressive liberals are better scientists and are more literate?

338 HelloDare  8/29/08 2:30:31 pm reply quote

Just watched Palin's acceptance speech. (See spinoff links upstairs.) What a ray of sunshine compared to the pall cast by the Democrat's convention.
Not only does she outshine Biden and Obama, she's also a stark contrast to Michelle. Sarah is somebody I'd love to talk to -- Biden and Michelle, no way.

339 theblakester  8/29/08 2:30:33 pm reply quote

Sorry, I missed spelled bridge to nowhere.

340 sattv4u2  8/29/08 2:30:34 pm reply quote

re: #328 theblakester

Does any LGFer's know if what Glenn Beck on CNN just said? He said something about the bridge to know where. Palin told them to take the money and shove it because it was a waste of taxpayers money, and that her state didn't need or want the money and sent it back.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

341 StinkHammer  8/29/08 2:30:53 pm reply quote

re: #310 FrogMarch

McCain might pick up a few votes -- but not many, because as you say -- leftists are leftists first.

I'm betting that any votes he receives because of the Palin-as-Woman factor will most likely be from unideological, unaffiliated types. The ideologues won't subjugate their leftist standing to female identity politics.

342 sattv4u2  8/29/08 2:31:01 pm reply quote

re: #331 Fat Jolly Penguin

I believe it's George Noory.

I thought it was George CLOONEY

343 HelloDare  8/29/08 2:31:21 pm reply quote

re: #301 jcm

Should turtle stacking be taught in school?

Only as an aerobic sport in gym class.

344 Kosh's Shadow  8/29/08 2:31:42 pm reply quote

re: #255 Alberta Oil Peon

I can't speak for Charles, but not in my book. "Creationist", with the scare quotes I would take as meaning a "Young-Earth Creationist", who thinks the Earth is only some 6000 years old, and takes the Book of Genesis as literal truth. This is the kind of creationist that runs the Discovery Institute, and to whom they pander.

If your beliefs run more along the line that God created the Universe, and the Earth within it, and that evolution is the mechanism he chose to populate it with life, well then, I have no problem with that. We have moved the debate to the realm of metaphysics, which is its proper home.

Generally, Creationism is the young-Earth belief, or the idea that G-d created the universe and the beings in it without using evolution.
ID has the development of life following the path of the evidence, but with explicit miracles beyond the natural laws at various points.
"Theistic evolution" is a philosophy that believes evolution occurred as the evidence shows, but that it was initiated and guided to some degree by G-d, by using the physical laws. Any intervention would be to select which of several random possibilities actually occurred.

Personally, I believe in theistic evolution, although I had not heard the term until another lizard used it.

All of these three are not science, since they require a supernatural being. However, theistic evolution is fully compatible with science. Mentioning these as non-scientific philosophical models is OK, as is covering some of the interpretations of the Bible, such as a "day" not being a 24 hour day. But in the end, science requires its theories to be falsifiable, and these are not, which is why I call them philosophical.

345 Dave the.....  8/29/08 2:32:16 pm reply quote

I come from a family of teachers. Most taught in smaller districts and did okay. My sister makes pretty big bucks in a suburban school.

One of many reasons I dispise the unions though....in my Aunts district...they didn't get a big enough raise, so the union sent a letter out to all teachers, telling them to do the bare minimum work for the next year. Come in at the last minute, leave right on time. Take no work home, don't help students after class (unless it is in the few minutes between class dismissal and the end of the work day according to the contract). That sort of thing.

Bad district, you say? No. She made big bucks teaching. And is now retired at age 56 with full pay and benefits. It's really a nice gig and most teachers have no clue how good they have it. My relatives are surprised that I frequently work 10-12 hour days, and also come in on weekends.

346 Canadian Guy  8/29/08 2:32:41 pm reply quote

re: #300 vagabond trader

Also, Biden is no spring chicken at 66 in November, and he also survived a brain aneurysm, no small health matter and one which could recur. btw,

Are you a medical professional, because I heard what you're saying about reoccurence is actually false.

347 father_of_10  8/29/08 2:32:46 pm reply quote

Once again, the Republicans have upstaged the Democrats. Democrats claim to be the party of the minorities, but the Republicans have had minorities as Secretary of State (X2) and Attorney General.

Poor Democrats, all talk and no walk.

348 formercorpsman  8/29/08 2:32:48 pm reply quote

re: #326 Salem

Salem, don't play that card.

You pressed the buttonfor an inflammatory post, and drew citicism for it.

349 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:32:49 pm reply quote

re: #341 StinkHammer

I'm betting that any votes he receives because of the Palin-as-Woman factor will most likely be from unideological, unaffiliated types. The ideologues won't subjugate their leftist standing to female identity politics.

Generally, I would agree. But the level of hope Hillary-supporters had was CRUSHED by Obama and his "surrogates" (I hate that word). It was done in an extremely sexist way.

Believe me, these feminists will not forget, no matter how many c-word references their liberal friends will remind them McCain used.

350 Salem  8/29/08 2:32:50 pm reply quote

re: #322 formercorpsman

Too many typos, but thanks.

I try to be rare in my criticisms because there are many great minds who offer excellent opinions here.

Salem has always been one of them.

That post disturbed me.

I apologize. I can be spectacularly unrestrained, sometimes. And I thank you, though I don't think I'm a great mind. If I am, it certainly doesn't seem to profit me.

351 Dianna  8/29/08 2:32:54 pm reply quote

re: #327 wolfie

It will come around again. Eventually.

352 Naso Tang  8/29/08 2:33:14 pm reply quote

re: #200 father_of_10

I guess you haven't read much about Joseph Smith then, have you? Do you stay up late at night thinking of ways to offend people?

No it doesn't take all night, but I've heard ex LDSers say much worse than I do in this this polite company.

We don't have to continue a slanging match, but for the record, I think Joseph Smith was a (convicted) con man who succeeded beyond most con men's dreams (except for being murdered when caught in the wrong bed), and once the momentum was big enough it took a life of it's own where one cannot have an alternative opinion without being excommunicated from ones family and upbringing. That latter issue is much stronger than something simple like logic and facts of history.

If you are here to hear only that which can't offend, may I suggest an LDS forum somewhere?

353 Outrider  8/29/08 2:33:21 pm reply quote

re: #312 Sunlight

The only things I want from the federal govt are providing for the common defense (in the constitution) and rulesetting/busting of crooks in the financial arena (which I would call common defense, since it enables us to function). So whatever she wants to believe in her religion is her business, especially since she apparently isn't going to try to institute her way or the highway in educational curricula.

I'm actually more interested in something I read that said she was captain of her basketball team and some Christian athletes group... and led prayers before the games. This happened at my daughter's school. I don't really care except there are a couple of the girls who call out my daughter's Jewishness in various situations, making her quite uncomfortable. I would be curious as to whether Gov. Palin was in the mode of thinking it was her job to get people not in her religion to either switch over or feel embarrassed by the wording of her prayers and/or comments and teasing.

Actually, it wouldn't make me less excited by her selection as this topic won't be in her job description, but I'm hoping / wishing that they would cut it out and leave people alone in public places.

That is one of the largest reasons I am against religion in schools. When I was in elementary school, my best friend was picked on by the teachers and thus the students because he didn't join in the prayers and Christian activities, his family being Jewish.

354 Colonel Panik  8/29/08 2:33:52 pm reply quote

Genesis According to Sarah Palin

And on the 5th day, the lord created the moose, and the caribou and all the horned and hoofed critters.

And on the 6th day, the lord created the Weatherby, that we might harvest the horned and hoofed critters.

And on the 7th day, we had mooseburgers, and they were good.

355 DeafDog  8/29/08 2:34:02 pm reply quote

re: #299 spaceman

Finally, a synical voice! I happen to like the pick even though she wasn't my top choice. But the LGFers have been gushing way too much. I agree that this is a risky pick, but it is hardly 'moronic.' Taking a candidate in part because she is a woman is a risky strategy, but it could pay off.....big!

McCain is gambling that he has enough gravitas and doesn't need any additional heft to win. So he added a highly likeable strong woman as #2.

My concern is that she will become a gaffe machine in the heat of the campaign.

We should know much more after she does the Sunday talk show circuit on Sunday.

356 Bryantay  8/29/08 2:34:14 pm reply quote

Out of curiousity I signed up for the forums on Hilllary Clinton's website to see what the they were saying about the Palin pick. here is just a small sampling.

--------------------------------------------------
Hoo Ray! Fu*k the DNC. Fu*k Obama.
They brushed off the women base like dirt. and the GOP pick them up. Go McCain. Go GO OG !
--------------------------------------------------

OMG!
Buuuuurn Obama Buuuurn! What a slap in the face.
If it's Palin, I will put blood and sweat into campaigning for that team.

--------------------------------------------------

GAME SET MATCH

--------------------------------------------------

OMG! Republican candidate chooses a woman! Take that Democrats,party of sexism! ROFLMAO!

--------------------------------------------------

All this B.S. that the Republicans are racist and sexist, yet colin powell and condi rice were some of the biggest players in the rnc.
Now Sarah has been confirmed. What does that tell you about the DNC.. Hypocrits.

--------------------------------------------------

I LOVE McCain! He pulled through for us. The Maverick does it again!

--------------------------------------------------

Leave it to the GOP to pick a woman for the ticket.
Obama snubbed the most viable and experienced woman who received 18 million votes, for another MALE.
I have a feeling, somewhere somehow, Hillary is snickering!

--------------------------------------------------

Ok, can anyone confirm this for me? Is it true that we must donate to McCain by Aug. 30th in order for him to accept it? I need this response, ASAP!

--------------------------------------------------

I Will Have No Problem Voting That Ticket! Look Out Obama

--------------------------------------------------

Do you all hear the sound of the running feet of all the women the Obama camp tossed aside? It is THUNDEROUS!

--------------------------------------------------

Well done, Sen. McCain! I also appreciate the fact that she has a child with Down's Syndrome. She'll have an understanding of what we parents of children with a disability go through. That's it for me. I will be voting McCain/Palin, a Republican team, for the very first time in my life. YEOW, how my life has changed this year.

--------------------------------------------------

THAT WAS A BRILLIANT MOVE, MCCAIN!
Things are going to get really interesting .

--------------------------------------------------

That's great news....Sarah she is just the perfect pick...
Young mother of five (44) business woman, former mayor and now Gov.of Alaska...
She is a great exsample for women...

--------------------------------------------------

357 jcm  8/29/08 2:34:29 pm reply quote

re: #354 Colonel Panik

Genesis According to Sarah Palin

And on the 5th day, the lord created the moose, and the caribou and all the horned and hoofed critters.

And on the 6th day, the lord created the Weatherby, that we might harvest the horned and hoofed critters.

And on the 7th day, we had mooseburgers, and they were good.

And all the congregation said;
AMEN!

358 big steve  8/29/08 2:34:31 pm reply quote

re: #299 spaceman

My first chance to comment on the Palin pick. Initial thoughts:

What a moronic move. She's clearly picked only for the Demographic, but Hillary voters will not vote McCain anyway. She has zero experience, and undercuts the same attack on Obama. She doesn't bring the strength on economy that Romney would, doesn't help in a swing state, and has absolutely zero recognition factor.

I thought to find a lot of the same sentiment at LGF. Imagine my shock to find that this opinion is not much shared among the Lizards, and that in fact the choice seems to be winning exhuberent, fawning and enthusiastic praise.

I fully expect some major ding-downage. Go ahead, I apparently have it coming.

But ... Here's hoping that you are all right, and I'm severely in the ignorant wrong.

what non "moronic" choice would you have made?

359 StinkHammer  8/29/08 2:34:31 pm reply quote

re: #330 vbspurs

Barack Obama called Governor Palin, and spoke to her several minutes.

Well, he's gotta do damage control after that initial campaign response about her inexperience, after all....

"Look how magnanimous I am!"

360 Dave the.....  8/29/08 2:34:32 pm reply quote
Does any LGFer's know if what Glenn Beck on CNN just said? He said something about the bridge to know where. Palin told them to take the money and shove it because it was a waste of taxpayers money, and that her state didn't need or want the money and sent it back.

Correct. She said improved ferry service will do the job for much less money. Much much less.

NRO is reporting the Obama voted to spend the money on the bridge.

361 spaceman  8/29/08 2:34:59 pm reply quote

RE #309 really grumpy big dog Johnson .... "Did you actually see her speak?"

Not much. I'm admittedly ignorant, and seriously very much hoping that my initial reaction is dead wrong. I was hoping for Romney. My wife's independent reaction BTW, was exactly the same as mine.

Sorry for the unofficial quote method. I'm getting javascript errors in IE7.

362 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:35:10 pm reply quote

re: #354 Colonel Panik

And on the 7th day, we had mooseburgers, and they were good.

LOL. *claps*

Betcha, if Governor Palin is elected alongside Senator McCain, that they'll have mooseburgers at the Inaugural Balls.

363 Pawn of the Oppressor  8/29/08 2:35:32 pm reply quote

I missed the entire batch of morning threads because of the outage, but re: #336 Ward Cleaver

Snobs.

Worse... Leftists.

For them, there are no rules, only tools***. Mysoginy, hatred, belittlement of her accomplishments, tearing her down as window dressing, implying she's an unfit mother, a whore, a cheat, a house harlot, "gender traitor", stooge, fool, hick, religious psychopath, an Ellie May Clampett, buck-toothed gun-toting redneck girl, pick an angle, you'll find it over at DU and Kos already, and there will be articles written by establishment "feminists" talking about what an idiot she is on Monday morning.

(*** This principle works great in art, but not politics)

364 formercorpsman  8/29/08 2:35:44 pm reply quote

re: #330 vbspurs

Man, you just made think of something.

Could you imagine if someone in the campaign had enough forethought to think in the metaphorical realm in suggesting Palin?

Obama made those stupid comments about guns and religion.

Trotting out someone antithetical to the description tangibly makes him a liar.

365 HelloDare  8/29/08 2:36:34 pm reply quote

re: #356 Bryantay

This is the best news I've heard all year. Seriously. Obama and his minions are scaring the hell out of me.

366 Celtic Templar  8/29/08 2:36:41 pm reply quote

Repeating what I heard from Medved:

If God forbid McCain falls ill, Palin can always pick Biden as VP to shore up the experience issue :)

367 Eowyn2  8/29/08 2:36:52 pm reply quote

re: #310 FrogMarch

A modern feminist is two things:

1. Male hater
2. Flaming Left-winger

I'm an old fashioned feminist - I care about fellow females across the globe without the desire to push a male-hating left-wing agenda.

I care about woman who are truly oppressed - not spoiled American women who think they have it bad.

Anyway - you are probably right. McCain might pick up a few votes - but not many, because as you say -- leftists are leftists first.

Back in 1980, NOW had a large membership. NOW now has a few thousand die hard liberal women members. I think the real feminists are those who arent afraid to be a woman first and foremost. Those of us who are not insulted when a male opens the door for us (and have even been known to insist upon it:) A real feminist is like yourself, one who believes that there is a hell of a lot more to women's rights do not stop at being able to have an abortion on demand.

368 Piglet-U93  8/29/08 2:37:14 pm reply quote

re: #257 auldtrafford

The plain fact of the matter is that neither theory really explains the origin-of-everything. Evolution is good science, and explains a lot, but very simply doesn't explain what we evolved from. The "big bang" is a good place to stop the buck, but (i) where did all the stuff that went "bang" come from, (ii) what was here before the big bang, and (iii) what's beyond the limits of the expanding universe?

Creationism simply provides a way to get to the same questions more quickly: i.e., where did "God" come from?

In my mind, we ain't ever going to figure it all out, so why don't we spend our time fishing instead?

Oh, and I like Palin; she's sharp, a good speaker and charismatic as hell. I doubt she'll really attract much of the Hillary vote - she's too obviously conservative, and essentially the anti-Hillary. Doesn't bother me. She's the only V-P pick he could have made that will actually make me reconsider my decision to abstain.

You said is better than I did , thanks ding + 1

369 father_of_10  8/29/08 2:37:25 pm reply quote

re: #352 Naso Tang

No it doesn't take all night, but I've heard ex LDSers say much worse than I do in this this polite company.

We don't have to continue a slanging match, but for the record, I think Joseph Smith was a (convicted) con man who succeeded beyond most con men's dreams (except for being murdered when caught in the wrong bed), and once the momentum was big enough it took a life of it's own where one cannot have an alternative opinion without being excommunicated from ones family and upbringing. That latter issue is much stronger than something simple like logic and facts of history.

If you are here to hear only that which can't offend, may I suggest an LDS forum somewhere?

I guess my problem is taking offense when you spread lies about my religion, as is illustrated by your latest posting here. This is political forum, and at least 3 times now you have used it to libel my religion. Might I suggest you take your sputum to an anti-Mormon forum? Let's focus on LGF politics here.

370 Eowyn2  8/29/08 2:37:28 pm reply quote

re: #337 Scorch


nice avatar

371 AW  8/29/08 2:37:33 pm reply quote
because in the clarification she’s describing a position that doesn’t cause me (a staunch anti-creationist) any discomfort.

I wonder why that is...

Is it that hard to say "she's wrong, but I'm voting for her anyways because I hate Obama"?

372 sattv4u2  8/29/08 2:38:02 pm reply quote

OT ,, best line I've heard so far about The Chosen Ones speech last night

From MILE HIGH to an INCH DEEP

373 theblakester  8/29/08 2:38:03 pm reply quote

Thank you SATTV4U2, on the bridge to nowhere. This was from wikipedia.

The project was canceled on September 21, 2007 by Alaska governor Sarah Palin.

374 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:38:14 pm reply quote

re: #356 Bryantay

This one made me laugh and cheers:

OMG!
Buuuuurn Obama Buuuurn! What a slap in the face.
If it's Palin, I will put blood and sweat into campaigning for that team.

But this one reminded me of why I do not like feminists:

Obama snubbed the most viable and experienced woman who received 18 million votes, for another MALE.

FOR ANOTHER MALE, she shrieks. That's what gets to them. Not that it was another Senator, but that it was a man. I don't like this undercurrent of anti-male sentiment at all.

375 formercorpsman  8/29/08 2:38:20 pm reply quote

re: #350 Salem


I have moved on.

I want to go to a place where the beer is on tap, and those little ice chips are floating on top.

Cheers.

377 big steve  8/29/08 2:38:27 pm reply quote

anyone heard whether Geraldine Ferraro has commented on Palin yet?

378 Dianna  8/29/08 2:38:36 pm reply quote

Well, I'm heading out. This has been an interesting day, and I'm glad so many of you are happy with Palin.

379 sattv4u2  8/29/08 2:39:01 pm reply quote

re: #376 Killgore Trout

She's a Hempster.....
"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled,"

long long winters up in Alaska!

380 StinkHammer  8/29/08 2:39:08 pm reply quote

re: #349 vbspurs

Believe me, these feminists will not forget, no matter how many c-word references their liberal friends will remind them McCain used.

Possibly, but remember that these are the same "feminists" that

A) Displayed no dismay at the treatment of women by Bill Clinton (since he was a Democrat POTUS)

B) Displayed no enthusiasm about the Iraqi women freed from tyrannical subjugation by G.W. Bush (because he's a republican POTUS)

Those examples tell me their leftism trumps any claim they make to supporting women on the whole.

381 basho  8/29/08 2:39:15 pm reply quote

Of course Palin is a creationist. Darwin said if evolution was true all offspring would be killed off. And Palin has 5 children!

/Cato

Seriously though, Palin is a great pick. I think McCain will win easily.

382 Who Watches the Watchmen?  8/29/08 2:39:22 pm reply quote

re: #363 Pawn of the Oppressor

And yet they complain about Republican talking points and the right-wing smear machine.

383 LemonJoose  8/29/08 2:39:26 pm reply quote

re: #277 vbspurs

"I knew myself. I worked with myself. I am friends with myself. And Sarah Palin is no myself"

It was Hilary Rosen (moonbat lesbian, former RIAA spokeswoman) commenting on CNN, not Hillary Clinton.

384 buzzsawmonkey  8/29/08 2:39:45 pm reply quote

re: #312 Sunlight

The only things I want from the federal govt are providing for the common defense (in the constitution) and rulesetting/busting of crooks in the financial arena (which I would call common defense, since it enables us to function). So whatever she wants to believe in her religion is her business, especially since she apparently isn't going to try to institute her way or the highway in educational curricula.

I'm actually more interested in something I read that said she was captain of her basketball team and some Christian athletes group... and led prayers before the games. This happened at my daughter's school. I don't really care except there are a couple of the girls who call out my daughter's Jewishness in various situations, making her quite uncomfortable. I would be curious as to whether Gov. Palin was in the mode of thinking it was her job to get people not in her religion to either switch over or feel embarrassed by the wording of her prayers and/or comments and teasing.

Actually, it wouldn't make me less excited by her selection as this topic won't be in her job description, but I'm hoping / wishing that they would cut it out and leave people alone in public places.

I attended school in England for a while as a kid. At that time, we had morning assembly, at which prayers were said and hymns sung, and we had "RI"--religious instruction--class as a required course.

There were many, many things I did not understand--math problems in pounds, shillings and pence being only one of them. Being both American and a Jew, I was doubly exotic. Being the only circumcised person was not an issue, exactly--but it did garner notice when we changed for PE. In RI, it was assumed that I would be much more familiar with the Old Testament than I was--and the New Testament was, well, completely new to me.

There were moments when these things were uncomfortable. But childhood is uncomfortable. Had I been in the US, the discomforts would have been different, but there were still discomforts. And I cannot say that these discomforts harmed me in any way that I am aware of.

385 Killgore Trout  8/29/08 2:40:03 pm reply quote

re: #379 sattv4u2

I'll bet the Northern Lights are pretty cool.

386 Lynn B.  8/29/08 2:40:19 pm reply quote

re: #355 DeafDog

Finally, a synical voice! I happen to like the pick even though she wasn't my top choice. But the LGFers have been gushing way too much. I agree that this is a risky pick, but it is hardly 'moronic.' Taking a candidate in part because she is a woman is a risky strategy, but it could pay off.....big!

McCain is gambling that he has enough gravitas and doesn't need any additional heft to win. So he added a highly likeable strong woman as #2.

My concern is that she will become a gaffe machine in the heat of the campaign.

We should know much more after she does the Sunday talk show circuit on Sunday.

She has done the Sunday talk show circuit before. It's not as if she stepped out of nowhere to win this nomination. Check out YouTube. And she's just about the last person among the potential Veep choices discussed that I'd worry about becoming a gaffe machine, and heat only seems to make her burn brighter.

387 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:40:43 pm reply quote

re: #364 formercorpsman

Man, you just made think of something.

Could you imagine if someone in the campaign had enough forethought to think in the metaphorical realm in suggesting Palin?

Obama made those stupid comments about guns and religion.

Trotting out someone antithetical to the description tangibly makes him a liar.

Good point! Mind, we knew that anyway. Check under the bus. ;)

388 sattv4u2  8/29/08 2:41:03 pm reply quote

re: #385 Killgore Trout

I'll bet the Northern Lights are pretty cool.

"Far out man ,,,,,, pass the twinkies !"

389 Sylvester_T_Cat  8/29/08 2:41:24 pm reply quote

re: #29 Killgore Trout

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

Republicans are the only source any education reform will/can come from.

Democrats have an incestuous relationship with the education industry that defies description. Think "National Education Association" for starters, then "American Federation of Teachers", "American Association of University Professors"-- these are all big stockholders in the Democratic Party.

Science policy maybe isn't as obvious as education. My attitude is that most of what needs to be done in science is best done by private industry as opposed to big government, whether it's medical research or space exploration. Government funding may definitely be needed, but I don't want some GS-12 making the big decisions based on whatever the National Association of Envirofreaks wants. Republicans are supposed to favor less-intrusive government, theoretically anyway ;-).

/yeah, about all we can do is vote; I make sure I do

390 Sharmuta  8/29/08 2:41:42 pm reply quote

I think there's a couple fallacies here.

First, not all Hillary supporters are women. I know- I'm related to one.

Second, I don't think every Hillary supporter is hardcore leftist. A lot of them are, but not all. I think the choice of Palin will be welcoming to many moderate democrats who supported Hillary.

391 auldtrafford  8/29/08 2:42:23 pm reply quote

re: #368 Piglet-U93

Thanks. You are very kind.

Incidentally, I've given up pork (doc's orders). Thought you should know.

392 keyword  8/29/08 2:42:37 pm reply quote

re: #376 Killgore Trout

She's a Hempster.....
"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled,"

The majority of people in her age group and younger have smoked pot.
Cocaine is another matter.
Did she ever sell it? Did Barack ever sell crack? I only ask because many coke/crack users do.

393 rawmuse  8/29/08 2:42:39 pm reply quote

Let's see. a Communist vs. a Creationist...
Nope, that is not a hard one to decide.

394 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:43:05 pm reply quote

re: #380 StinkHammer

Those examples tell me their leftism trumps any claim they make to supporting women on the whole.

You're right. :)

But I am talking about Hillary supporters. I confess, my mother was ready to vote for her, and she is a conservative Catholic, and not a feminist liberal. Let's not overthink what it means to support Hillary. It was for history, as much as for Hillary herself.

McCain gave them hope again, regardless of their specific politics and backgrounds.

395 Sunlight  8/29/08 2:43:39 pm reply quote

re: #384 buzzsawmonkey

There were moments when these things were uncomfortable. But childhood is uncomfortable. Had I been in the US, the discomforts would have been different, but there were still discomforts. And I cannot say that these discomforts harmed me in any way that I am aware of.

I agree with that. That's why I tell my daughter to hold her chin up and ignore these kids. There are plenty of fun kids who don't act like that. And I tell her that pretty much no matter what happens during our day, we have won the cosmic lottery of birth to be living where we do.

396 NY Nana  8/29/08 2:44:14 pm reply quote

re: #318 Lynn B.

We can agree to disagree. I don't think he even put the pay check into his reason to go.

He knew what the subject was, and chose to go. This makes me somewhat uneasy, especially in vue of Palin's agenda.

The Discovery Institute is reprehensible. That alone should, I feel, have been enough for him to politely decline.

397 big steve  8/29/08 2:44:25 pm reply quote

re: #392 keyword

The majority of people in her age group and younger have smoked pot.
Cocaine is another matter.
Did she ever sell it? Did Barack ever sell crack? I only ask because many coke/crack users do.

I would not trust ANYONE under age 60 who says they have never even tried weed.

398 theblakester  8/29/08 2:44:36 pm reply quote

I think if you want to beat Obama to the youth vote, then Palin with her 420 history will reel them in so to speak.

399 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:44:41 pm reply quote

re: #393 rawmuse

Let's see. a Communist vs. a Creationist...
Nope, that is not a hard one to decide.

Except he's not a Communist and she's not a Creationist...

400 DeafDog  8/29/08 2:44:47 pm reply quote

re: #386 Lynn B.

She has done the Sunday talk show circuit before. It's not as if she stepped out of nowhere to win this nomination. Check out YouTube. And she's just about the last person among the potential Veep choices discussed that I'd worry about becoming a gaffe machine, and heat only seems to make her burn brighter.

Yes, she did step out of nowhere. She is a surprise pick. Are you kidding? She may have done onesy-twosy appearances before, but now she has George Steppenappolaus gunning for her....you know he wants to land a gaffe. It's a completely different ballgame.

It's an exciting. I'm excited. But don't fool yourself thinking that she can walk on water.

401 sattv4u2  8/29/08 2:45:18 pm reply quote

re: #394 vbspurs

McCain gave them hope again, regardless of their specific politics and backgrounds.

GGGAAHHHH ,, can you use another word !

402 Kosh's Shadow  8/29/08 2:45:27 pm reply quote

re: #310 FrogMarch

A modern feminist is two things:

1. Male hater
2. Flaming Left-winger

I'm an old fashioned feminist - I care about fellow females across the globe without the desire to push a male-hating left-wing agenda.

I care about woman who are truly oppressed - not spoiled American women who think they have it bad.

Anyway - you are probably right. McCain might pick up a few votes - but not many, because as you say -- leftists are leftists first.

My wife was in chemistry grad school in the early 1980's. She had our daughter during that time, and got absolutely no help from the female faculty, "feminists" all. In fact, they probably looked down on her.
One reason she's now a lawyer (criminal defense).

403 Alberta Oil Peon  8/29/08 2:45:49 pm reply quote

re: #344 Kosh's Shadow

I have no problem with that. You explained it better than I.

404 Piglet-U93  8/29/08 2:46:04 pm reply quote

re: #318 Lynn B.

Well the Commies and Anarchists at the DNC were out in force. "Trying to suppress the guilt by association syndrome".

The RNC will be relatively free of such radical elements. The DI is lame by comparison and a whole lot safer.

405 vbspurs  8/29/08 2:46:14 pm reply quote

re: #401 sattv4u2

McCain gave them hope again, regardless of their specific politics and backgrounds.

GGGAAHHHH ,, can you use another word !

No! I'm reclaiming it for all humanity!

;)

406 Eowyn2  8/29/08 2:46:37 pm reply quote

re: #299 spaceman

My first chance to comment on the Palin pick. Initial thoughts:

What a moronic move. She's clearly picked only for the Demographic, but Hillary voters will not vote McCain anyway. She has zero experience, and undercuts the same attack on Obama. She doesn't bring the strength on economy that Romney would, doesn't help in a swing state, and has absolutely zero recognition factor.

I thought to find a lot of the same sentiment at LGF. Imagine my shock to find that this opinion is not much shared among the Lizards, and that in fact the choice seems to be winning exhuberent, fawning and enthusiastic praise.

I fully expect some major ding-downage. Go ahead, I apparently have it coming.

But ... Here's hoping that you are all right, and I'm severely in the ignorant wrong.

Spiffy:

McCain wasn't going for the female vote. He will gain a few but not a lot. He was solidifying the base with a fiscal conservative.
If you think that the governor of AK does not have international experience dealing with the Russian fisherfolk and even some of the dissidents from utopia, think again. Not only does she have to deal with them but with Canada as well. She also has had to deal with the military (and there's bunches in AK - and they seem to like her, or at least my daughter who was stationed up there did, and they respect her.)

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