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-RetweetSarah Palin and Creationism

Fri, Aug 29, 2008 at 1:15:58 pm PDT

LGF readers are probably aware that I am no creationist; in fact, I am strongly opposed to the teaching of “intelligent design” or “creation science,” or any other name the advocates for creationism concoct in their relentless quest to promote pseudo-science.

So I was disturbed to learn of Sarah Palin’s apparent support for creationism. However, as I posted in a comment earlier, she does not appear to be the fanatical type who wants to force or sneak the teaching of creationism into public school science classrooms.

But this is going to be a point of attack for the left, as Wired Magazine’s Brandon Keim demonstrates in this article: McCain’s VP Wants Creationism Taught in School.

Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin wants creationism taught in science classes.

In a 2006 gubernatorial debate, the soon-to-be governor of Alaska trotted out the usual creationist education canard: “Teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of education. Healthy debate is so important, and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.”

Teaching evolution and creationism in a scientifically balanced way is simply impossible. Evolution is accepted by scientists as driving the development of life on Earth. Creationism, which puts a (Christian) God in the engine room of life, is unsupported by science. Its arguments have been roundly dismissed by scientists — many of whom, it should be noted, believe in God. They’re just sensible enough to understand where science ends and religion begins.

This is all true as far as it goes, but it’s a bit dishonest of Keim not to quote the rest of Palin’s statements in the article he linked: ‘Creation science’ enters the race.

In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:

“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum.

Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

Looks like Palin made an off-the-cuff statement during a debate on a hot topic, didn’t really expect the criticism she’d get, and then softened her position considerably in a follow-up interview. But to quote just the first part of her statements on creationism and ignore the second is misleading; because in the clarification she’s describing a position that doesn’t cause me (a staunch anti-creationist) any discomfort.

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839 comments

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1 JohnnyReb  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:18:13pm

I don't think it will be an issue. What they will attack and with vigor are her anti-abortion beliefs.

2 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:19:00pm

Thank you for your thoughtful response, Charles. I have been educated on this topic because of you, and I put a good deal of weight on your opinion on it.

Truth to tell, based on Gov. Palin's response, I think even more of her.

3 joncelli  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:19:10pm

Okay. We can put our minds at (some) ease about the creationism question, bring this up if the left tries to throw it at her, and keep going. It is a relief that she's got the right attitude toward separation of church and state.

4 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:19:40pm

re: #1 JohnnyReb

I don't think it will be an issue. What they will attack and with vigor are her anti-abortion beliefs.

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

5 mbruce  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:20:33pm

At this point, whatever system brought us this fabulous VPILF is alright by me. Put a pic of her with the motorcycle next to Obama on his bikey and just laugh all day long.

6 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:20:48pm

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

Go after as in get the votes? I'm a western, small town, small college roots person, and I'm thrilled with her, so probably yes, yes?

7 Cognito  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:21:05pm

McCain/Palin '08.

8 KingKenrod  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:21:16pm

This issue at the federal level is fairly irrelevent, except maybe judicial appointments, where I think she'll do just fine.

9 wong fei hung  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:22:03pm

Charles:

Thanks for the media dishonesty warm-up.

There is and will be much more of this targeted toward Sarah Palin as the election goes on. MSNBC made sure to highlight that she is under state investigation right now, though Alaskans don't seem to buy it considering her approval rating is about 71% higher than the US Congress.

-WFH

10 CalipHater  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:22:07pm

Yawnnn... Don't care, non issue

11 rabidfox  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:22:53pm

I don't have a problem with ID - or even discussions of ID - so long as the science of evolution is taught in the science classroom. We have numerous creationists around where I live and it struck me one day that these people are perfectly competitent in their chosen fields, plummers, electricians, etc. They don't need to accept the science of evolution because it actually makes diddlysquat difference in their everyday lives. Ms Palin's response actually makes sense in a pratical scenario because I guarantee that, in my part of the state, the issue comes up in every science class every year every time evolution is taught. It's really the only thing that you CAN do.

12 seekeroftruth  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:22:58pm

Thank you for clarifying this Charles. Part of what I love about you and LGF is your integrity and your fairness.

13 Shug  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:23:27pm

How many of the other potential candidates have a similar position?

Just curious, does Mormonism teach creationism?

Romni
Huckabee
etc

14 HypnoToad  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:23:42pm

As someone who has lectured to the public on scientific topics for years, I'm fine with her statement. She doesn't seem to be pushing it at all. This issue will go away fairly quickly IMHO.

15 Shug  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:23:46pm

Romni

WTF

Romney

16 Honorary Yooper  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:23:53pm

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

Fine, but I've had enough of Harvard, Yale, and the Ivy League for my lifetime. McCain went to Annapolis, and Palin went to the University of Idaho. Remember, folks, Reagan went to tiny Eureka College, Eureka, Illinois, near Peoria.

Maybe small is good.

17 CalipHater  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:24:01pm

"She is a hunter, pilot and lifetime member of the NRA, and she was runner-up for the Miss Alaska title, won Miss Congeniality in that contest, and plays the flute."

Enough said.

18 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:24:02pm

re: #13 Shug

Just curious, does Mormonism teach creationism?

Yes.

19 maddogg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:24:02pm

I got heat, for the veep.

20 JohnnyReb  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:24:20pm

re: #13 Shug

How many of the other potential candidates have a similar position?

Just curious, does Mormonism teach creationism?

Romni
Huckabee
etc


Extremely valid point, and one I would think that McCain would have thought long and hard about.

21 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:24:23pm

re: #5 mbruce

At this point, whatever system brought us this fabulous VPILF is alright by me. Put a pic of her with the motorcycle next to Obama on his bikey and just laugh all day long.

That term shows disrespect, IMHO. But I'm not a guy, so carry on, I guess.

22 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:24:24pm

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

Middle America will warmly embrace her, imho. Ditto those who consider themselves working class. That's pretty much a majority. Throw in the 20% - 40% of Jews, and with some hard work, we can all celebrate in November.

23 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:24:42pm

re: #6 Cattt

Go after as in get the votes? I'm a western, small town, small college roots person, and I'm thrilled with her, so probably yes, yes?

They're going to belittle her background, she's a mom (ant-feminist), western small town, University of Idaho (Vandals) grad. The very antithesis of the Eastern Elitist Obama/Biden.

24 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:24:46pm

As long as she isn't going to push it in public schools she can believe whatever she wants. It's still an embarrassment...

The Republican Party of Alaska platform says, in its section on education: "We support giving Creation Science equal representation with other theories of the origin of life. If evolution is taught, it should be presented as only a theory."


Yeesh.

25 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:24:56pm

I thought the MSM would start harping on McCain's son sitting on the board of the struggling Silver State Bancorp.

/For all of 6 months

/Because he was on the board of a bank that merged with Silver State in better times

/But I should probably leave that out if I were working for the MSM

26 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:25:24pm

re: #18 Fat Jolly Penguin

Yes.

But Romney believes in evolution.

/ugh -- I linked to the NY Slimes...

27 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:26:08pm

I likened her debate stance (the kind all politician's make, to score them rhetorical points to this situation.

Let's say a debate moderator asks

Q: Are you in favour of alternative energy for cars than gas?
A: Yes, I am. Hydrogen is a good alternative energy source.

Would a person listening to this come to the conclusion that the candidate therefore believes in and champions ONLY hydrogen?

No. It would be a complete misreading.

She suggested it to set herself apart in a gubernatorial debate, and it went no further when she was elected Governor. Case closed (for me).

28 rabidfox  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:26:26pm

She has more actual administrative experience than the top of the other ticket.

29 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:26:39pm

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

30 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:27:01pm

re: #17 CalipHater

"She is a hunter, pilot and lifetime member of the NRA, and she was runner-up for the Miss Alaska title, won Miss Congeniality in that contest, and plays the flute."

Enough said.

She's done real things, in real life.
Biden's a political creature, his entire experience is inside the beltway.

Palin's gonna' be a hit in fly over country.

31 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:27:05pm

re: #15 Shug

Romni

WTF

Romney


Romni is his Italian non-Mormon cousin.

32 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:27:05pm
33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:27:08pm

re: #19 maddogg

I got heat, for the veep.

You're saying your feelings have evolved toward her which has created something in you?

34 Eowyn2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:27:23pm

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

That would be awesome if they did. The republicans could come right back with

A small town is just a big neighborhood
A large city is just a bunch of neighborhoods.

35 Charles  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:27:46pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

As long as she isn't going to push it in public schools she can believe whatever she wants. It's still an embarrassment...

The Republican Party of Alaska platform says, in its section on education: "We support giving Creation Science equal representation with other theories of the origin of life. If evolution is taught, it should be presented as only a theory."

Yeesh.

Yep. She was simply stating the party line during the debate.

36 timtitan  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:27:50pm

I still don't think it should be that big an issue. I'm a Creationist, and a Scientist, but I don't think Creation should be taught alongside Evolution in Science. Quite frankly I think neither should be taught. Not until University level at any rate. It's just iffy science, and for the majority, theres not alot of point. At a High School level, you just cannot handle the in depth coverage of the science involved that such an issue merits.

37 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:27:58pm

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

What does MILF mean? VPILF?

Can't keep up with the acronyms.

Mom's I'd Like to Fondle.

38 bryantay  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:27:58pm
39 JohnnyReb  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:28:05pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

I don't trust the Federal government on education period. It ain't their job in the constitution and they should not be in it at all.

40 maddogg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:28:08pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

Me either, after all, the libs have done such a bang up job with the schools...

/s

41 rabidfox  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:28:10pm

Kilgore, why don't you trust Republicans on ed reform or science policy?

42 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:28:27pm

Aw. The MSM are whining because McCain kept them out of the loop for so long.

43 CalipHater  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:28:28pm

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

What does MILF mean? VPILF?

Can't keep up with the acronyms.

Look up the 1st one in urban dictionary and deduce the rest

44 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:28:32pm

re: #28 rabidfox

She has more actual administrative experience than the top of the other ticket.

How positively racist of you to point that out.

/

45 Eowyn2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:29:05pm

re: #17 CalipHater

"She is a hunter, pilot and lifetime member of the NRA, and she was runner-up for the Miss Alaska title, won Miss Congeniality in that contest, and plays the flute."

Enough said.


why am I getting images of Sandra Bullock riding in on her husbands harley and shaking this woman's hand.

46 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:29:15pm

re: #22 Golem Akbar

Middle America will warmly embrace her, imho. Ditto those who consider themselves working class. That's pretty much a majority. Throw in the 20% - 40% of Jews, and with some hard work, we can all celebrate in November.

I have absolutely no doubt today, that is true.

I live in the heart of Jewish country in South Beach. Not an one of these hard-core Democrats were enthusiastic about Obama. One lady, whose first ballot was cast for FDR in 1936, told me she would vote Republican for the first time in her life in 2008. She was particularly upset because her mother had been a suffragette in the 10s. She wanted Hillary.

And today I call her up and ask, Mrs. Levine, how about that Sarah Palin?

Long story short: we got a new vote today.

47 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:29:18pm

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

What does MILF mean? VPILF?

Can't keep up with the acronyms.


MILF is a mother I'd like to f...
VPILF is Vice President...etc.

48 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:29:19pm

re: #36 timtitan

What's your field of study?

49 WrathofG-d  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:30:34pm

That is an intersting evolution of her position on the subject.

(bah dum dum)

50 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:30:57pm

re: #32 buzzsawmonkey

What does MILF mean? VPILF?

Can't keep up with the acronyms.

'Mother I'd Like to F***', i.e. 'hot mom'

The Phillipine-based terrorist group Moro Islamic Liberation Front didn't really take that into consideration when they chose their acronym.

51 kcladderman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:31:27pm

Lots of straw grasping going on in the MSM today it seems.

52 Eowyn2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:31:29pm

re: #36 timtitan

I still don't think it should be that big an issue. I'm a Creationist, and a Scientist, but I don't think Creation should be taught alongside Evolution in Science. Quite frankly I think neither should be taught. Not until University level at any rate. It's just iffy science, and for the majority, theres not alot of point. At a High School level, you just cannot handle the in depth coverage of the science involved that such an issue merits.

I believe God created the universe. I dont care if they teach the theory of evolution as long as they teach it as a theory. I think it should be taught. Not as a history class or a natural science class, but as part of a biology class

53 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:31:50pm

re: #41 rabidfox

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

54 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:32:14pm

re: #49 WrathofG-d

That is an intersting evolution of her position on the subject.

(bah dum dum)


Some people are always trying to create an issue when one doesn't exist. They enjoy the big bang of non-issues. [kish]

55 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:33:16pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Don't know about that. I've been living in the south for 10 years now, and there are some Good Ole' Redneck Boys here that scientifically make a mean moonshine !

56 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:33:26pm

re: #51 kcladderman

Lots of straw grasping going on in the MSM today it seems.

The talking heads on MSNBC were talking about this carefully polished crafted image that's being presented of Palin now.

/not like the top banana on the other ticket

57 rabidfox  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:33:33pm

Fenway Nation: I know you're using irony, but I have to say that I think that while 'racism' has been losing a lot of its punch, this campaign season should (hopefully) kill it altogether.

58 wright1  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:33:55pm

The truth is in her short time as Governor and Mayor for that matter she has more executive experience that not only her opponent but also McCain. But her detractors are already laying their traps: lack of experience, under investigation and in the pocket of right wing conservatives.

She can actually cut through much of this by simply making cogent, intelligent replies while using a winsome smile.

59 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:34:01pm

re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You're saying your feelings have evolved toward her which has created something in you?

Third leg is tingling?

60 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:34:21pm
61 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:34:28pm

re: #13 Shug

How many of the other potential candidates have a similar position?

Just curious, does Mormonism teach creationism?

Romni
Huckabee
etc

I'm no expert, but my impression of the Mormon view is that it ties in somewhat with the laws of Termodynamics - matter can be neither created nor destroyed but is acted upon and changed in form. Spirit is eternal, as is matter. Spirit is in fact material. God organizied existing matter - He did not create matter out of nothing..

Correct me if I messed up, any LDSers in the audience.

I used to lie awake at night as a child, trying to understand how you could create something from nothing. I am guessing that Joseph Smith did also.

62 JohnnyReb  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:34:35pm

re: #42 Fat Jolly Penguin

Aw. The MSM are whining because McCain kept them out of the loop for so long.


OK I waded through about half the comments on that link. Good Lord! They are all over her "lack of experience". I continue to be amazed by the lack of reality by the left.

63 Grok the Fullness  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:34:50pm

As on most issues, there are extremes on both sides that tend to cast the argument in black and white. What the Bible and scientific inquiry have established is there are many colors and not necessarily in between. Certainly there is more to the universe than our philosophies and religions...Horatio ;)

64 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:34:53pm

re: #58 wright1

The truth is in her short time as Governor and Mayor for that matter she has more executive experience that not only her opponent but also McCain. But her detractors are already laying their traps: lack of experience, under investigation and in the pocket of right wing conservatives.

She can actually cut through much of this by simply making cogent, intelligent replies while using a winsome smile middle finger.


I like my way better

65 runrabbitrun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:35:13pm

re: #22 Golem Akbar

Middle America will warmly embrace her, imho. Ditto those who consider themselves working class. That's pretty much a majority. Throw in the 20% - 40% of Jews, and with some hard work, we can all celebrate in November.

Great points.

Krauthammer, Chris Wallace, and Bill Kristol annoyed some Repubs and conservatives with their honest appraisal of the effectiveness of Barry's latest major speeches in targeting working people, but in doing so, they were sending a crucial message to the McCain camp regarding the importance of reaching the middle class and its concerns in their campaign's theme.

66 maddogg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:35:23pm

re: #59 Who Watches the Watchmen?


re: #33 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You're saying your feelings have evolved toward her which has created something in you?

Third leg is tingling?


I am a triped...:)

67 kansas  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:36:05pm

Somebody needs to be assigned to watch that firking smuck Olbermann to see how he attacks this fine woman and gets away with it. I would but can not watch Olbermann for health reasons.

68 hillbilly geek  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:36:21pm

Bravo Charles!
I too have problems with ID, and find Palin's clarification (or softening, if you will) quite palatable.

69 akak  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:36:28pm

Hope someone has clip of Hannity asking Dukakis about Obama's achievements?

Zippo. Would be good McCain commercial.

70 tokyobk  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:36:36pm

re: #66 maddogg

I am a triped...:)

I don' believe in anything without hard evidence.

71 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:36:38pm

re: #54 Golem Akbar

Some people are always trying to create an issue when one doesn't exist. They enjoy the big bang of non-issues. [kish]

You guys are creating a racket with your drums. [cisboom]

72 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:36:46pm
73 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:36:50pm

I hope Charles is right on this. In any event, I trust she's going to be given plenty of opportunities to clarify her position in the coming months. So this probably won't be the last thread on it.

Until then, I'll give her the benefit of the doubt.

74 wrenchwench  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:37:27pm

re: #66 maddogg

I am a triped...:)

Isn't that what they make menudo out of? :)

75 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:37:55pm

re: #23 jcm

They're going to belittle her background, she's a mom (ant-feminist), western small town, University of Idaho (Vandals) grad. The very antithesis of the Eastern Elitist Obama/Biden.

Oh. Well, I'm from what Time magazine once called "a sleepy little cow town." My mom grew up on a ranch. I know the best way to kill a chicken. I went to college in an even smaller town, smack dab in the middle of the Rocky Mountains, where a lot of people did nothing but ski during winter quarter.

A large hunk of America is from a similar background. Talk about a way to get our hackles up. Gosh, but the elitists are ignorant.

76 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:38:01pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Ned Lud '08!

/

We need major education reform. We need to break the grip of the unions on education. Frankly I'd like to see the Federal Dept. of Ed. go the way of the Dinosaurs.

We have Zinn's People's History of the United States as the popular HS history text, it's in the mold of Chumpsky. We've got self esteem taking priority over mastery of the material. We've got all kinds of environmental psuedo science, peace and justice being taught cross-disciplinary, in math classes the justice of Juan have fewer oranges that Judy is discussed.

The right isn't the only ones bending education to their political will. The left has been doing it for 30-40 years.

77 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:38:14pm
78 yma o hyd  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:38:20pm

This is the money quote, from the link above:

“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

Thats how it ought to be - and it reminds me of a famous saying of a very famous historical person, Queen Elizabeth I. She said she would not make a window into the hearts of her people, when asked to enforce the protestant religion ...

I join my thanks to the others, for your utter fairness, Charles, especially on this topic, in providing the links.

And finally, slightly OT, thanks for this site, and for keeeping it running under more than extremely trying circumstances!
This is the first post today I could get through - alla fternoon i was glad just to be able to read what the Lizard Nation ahd to say, updinging was all I sometimes was able to to.
I hope the poor hamsters ahve had lots to eat and drink. I won't ask you to give every one of them a hug from me - but perhaps a little extra titbit to cheer them up?
Thanks!

79 Tom Kratman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:38:31pm

I rather think she ought to phrase it as a states' rights / local community rights issue with which the Federal government ought have no input or concern.

80 docremulac  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:38:33pm

Nobody's perfect. Reagan was a "back burner' creationist and right to lifer wasn't he? Here's my attitude, the governments 3 top jobs are to:

1- Protect me and my family from the barbarians.

2- No, really, protect me family from the G*d damn barbarians.

3- See #1 & #2.

So when they come out telling me about how they're going to eduficate me and learnify me about life the universe and everything I say: "That's great, where do you stand on protecting me and my family from the barbarian Muslim hoard that's sworn to kill us all, take over our land and steal our stuff?"

81 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:38:33pm

re: #73 Lynn B.

I hope Charles is right on this. In any event, I trust she's going to be given plenty of opportunities to clarify her position in the coming months.

Not in the MSM.

82 rabidfox  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:38:39pm

We have a population that is scientifically illiterate - mostly due to the poor quality of much of our education today. For example, look at the AGW phenomonon or the 911 ignorance.

83 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:38:45pm

re: #55 sattv4u2

Don't know about that. I've been living in the south for 10 years now, and there are some Good Ole' Redneck Boys here that scientifically make a mean moonshine !

Good moonshine is ART!
;-)

84 WrathofG-d  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:39:02pm

re: #54 Golem Akbar

Is it possible that this "issue" could be created on LGF. (ie: what if somehow the dems didn't find it but for the fact that it is posted here? Giving LGF too much credit?)

85 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:39:07pm

re: #55 sattv4u2

Distillation is very important science!

86 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:39:29pm

re: #35 Charles

Yep. She was simply stating the party line during the debate.

I'm cynical enough to think that sometimes some things have to be at least alluded to in order to have a chance of being elected, so while I thought this was a great move on McCain's part in principle, I'm still wondering what she meant by “I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,”.

Does that mean that she would consider appointing a creationist to a scientific or educational advisory board? Unfortunately, personal opinions are not divorced from competence.

87 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:39:32pm
“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

Sounds reasonable to me. What is learning without the ability to ask questions of one's self and one's teachers?

88 hillbilly geek  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:40:03pm

re: #76 jcm

We need major education reform. We need to break the grip of the unions on education. Frankly I'd like to see the Federal Dept. of Ed. go the way of the Dinosaurs.

Hear hear!

89 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:40:09pm

re: #76 jcm

Agreed. One side or the other will get their shit together sooner or later.

90 Eowyn2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:40:41pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Most of the scientists I know are conservative. Why? Because a true science mind has to have PROOF. Logically flowing from one base to another is simply not done in my line of science. Computer science. Math based. PROOFS.

Most of the liberal Arts people I know are, well, liberals. Women's Studies is not a science class. Nuclear Physics is a science class.

91 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:40:43pm

Even if Palin believed in astrology or reincarnation or ufo's or Sasquatch or Scientology or Buddah or Chrishna or Mu or Elvis, it would not change my mind about supporting her and McCain in November.

NObama!

92 Cap'n DOC  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:41:14pm

re: #7 Cognito

Well. That was short and to the point.

93 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:41:30pm

re: #84 WrathofG-d

Is it possible that this "issue" could be created on LGF. (ie: what if somehow the dems didn't find it but for the fact that it is posted here? Giving LGF too much credit?)

The other side of the coin is that almost nobody cares - or understands - the issue anyway.

Sometimes we must remind ourselves that most people don't bother to know or understand most of the issues that we debate here.

94 CalipHater  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:41:47pm

re: #91 IslandLibertarian

Even if Palin believed in astrology or reincarnation or ufo's or Sasquatch or Scientology or Buddah or Chrishna or Mu or Elvis, it would not change my mind about supporting her and McCain in November.

NObama!

But Bigfoot IS real (in spite of crappy hoaxers)

95 kcladderman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:41:58pm

re: #82 rabidfox

We have a population that is scientifically illiterate - mostly due to the poor quality of much of our education today. For example, look at the AGW phenomonon or the 911 ignorance.

Exactly ! Look how many people believe fire can melt steel!
///

96 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:42:04pm

re: #61 Cattt

I'm no expert, but my impression of the Mormon view is that it ties in somewhat with the laws of Termodynamics - matter can be neither created nor destroyed but is acted upon and changed in form. Spirit is eternal, as is matter. Spirit is in fact material. God organizied existing matter - He did not create matter out of nothing..

Correct me if I messed up, any LDSers in the audience.

I used to lie awake at night as a child, trying to understand how you could create something from nothing. I am guessing that Joseph Smith did also.

From what I have read of Joseph Smith, what he though mostly about was when he was next going to get laid, and how he was going to make the case that those golden plates would never actually be seen by anyone.

97 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:42:09pm

re: #81 Fenway_Nation

Not in the MSM.

Oh, yes, especially in the MSM. This is potential red meat for them. Oh course, if she smacks it down as she seems to have done in the interview Charles quoted from, they'll back off it quick.

One thing I'm fairly certain of is that this is one candidate who can handle just about anything the media will throw at her.

98 Eowyn2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:42:52pm

re: #79 Tom Kratman

I rather think she ought to phrase it as a states' rights / local community rights issue with which the Federal government ought have no input or concern.

that takes away the NEA and they will be pissed and, protest at school.

99 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:43:11pm

re: #84 WrathofG-d

Is it possible that this "issue" could be created on LGF. (ie: what if somehow the dems didn't find it but for the fact that it is posted here? Giving LGF too much credit?)

I think in the day of the internet, it doesn't much matter where it starts, it'll spread fast, and within hours. LGF is read widely by all sides, but so is Kos, and so many others.

100 runrabbitrun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:43:12pm

re: #52 Eowyn2

I believe God created the universe. I dont care if they teach the theory of evolution as long as they teach it as a theory. I think it should be taught. Not as a history class or a natural science class, but as part of a biology class

Biology is a science. God creating the universe is a philosophy (The Metaphysics).

For philosophical musings to be upgraded to science, the scientific method has to be applied with empirical proofs.

If Einstein had not been able to give us scientific proofs for his theories of relativity, he'd only be one in a million other another philosopher/hippies through history saying - whoah, hey dudes! y'know, I just can see that, like, matter and energy are the same thing... you dig?"

101 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:43:28pm
102 docremulac  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:43:52pm

And I'll take the Democrats seriously about their deep concern for scientifically sound teaching in the school when they teach that Islam is a barbaric ancient religion designed to give pirates and caravan raiders and excuse to rob, pillage, rape and murder.

103 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:44:07pm

Guys, have you seen this Newsweek video yet? "A private moment with VP Sarah Palin"

[Link: www.newsweek.com...]

"I got that title Miss Congeniality, out of my system". Awesome.

104 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:44:08pm

I realize the Democrats would love to think the Presidency is a dictatorship and the President has merely to utter some words and laws are magically rewritten. I am aware they would love the ability to do this if they got in office.

This isn't how it works though. The President or VP can't change the education laws to include creationism in public schools, even if he/she wanted to.

But, I am betting there will be a core of people that fly off the handle, look no further, and change their vote based on her initial remarks.

105 Kenneth  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:44:24pm

Very well put, Charles.

Palin made a clear distinction between her personal and public views on the topic.

106 Junior  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:44:27pm

The fact that this would be an issue for some of you is proof that the entire debate of evolution against whatever else you want to call it is a religious one as much for the former as it is for the latter. Evolution has become a religion with just as many zealots.

107 yma o hyd  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:44:43pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

I'd trust socialists/dems not at all on education reform or science policy - they see education under the aspect that every child must win something, but tehre must be no competition - and science, well, thats far too costly.
Latest proof here from NuLab country (a.k.a. UK) - they were going to close the radio telescope Jodrell Bank - because it cost too much. Too much - that was the huge, ginormous sum of 8 million pound sterling ($16 mill) ...
Thats socialist science policy for you.

A party which supports and upholds its armed forces is automatically engaged in supporting sciences.

108 CIA Reject  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:45:06pm

I'm a little late to the party here, and this is not exactly my favorite topic, but I think we could all benefit from some clarification in terms-ie what do we mean by "Creationist".

For example: I believe that G*d is ultimately responsible for the creation of the Universe, and I take that as an article of Faith, not of science. In fact I find any attempt to "scientifically prove" what I take as an article of Faith to be an affront to my Faith.

Does that make me a "Creationist"?

109 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:45:06pm

re: #96 Naso Tang

From what I have read of Joseph Smith, what he though mostly about was when he was next going to get laid, and how he was going to make the case that those golden plates would never actually be seen by anyone.

Heh.

My dad's best friend was a Mormon. Daddy used to tease him mercilessly about those golden tablets. :D

110 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:45:23pm

re: #101 buzzsawmonkey

Mr. Bigfoot Stuff.


Was that Big on Sex in the City?
(I never watched it, but Mrs. Golem did)

111 garycooper  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:45:24pm

Evolution is "just a theory?" Um, okay. So is gravity. So is thermodynamics. So is plate tectonics. Just theories, should be presented with their "equally compelling" alternatives. (sigh)

In other news, Gustav is starting to scare me. As dumb as I think it was for people to rebuild in the New Orleans basin, I happen to have a very good friend who rebuilt his business there, and moved into a house on slightly-higher ground than his old house, which was flooded and destroyed by Katrina.

I hope it veers off, and hits somewhere less vulnerable to the storm surge.

112 Grok the Fullness  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:46:59pm

re: #100 runrabbitrun


Actually, scientific method is part of philosophy. Back in the day, philosophy wasn't relegated to the backbench hippy forum. It was the discipline of socrates, Plato, Aristotle, et al. Philosophy, the love of wisdom.

113 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:47:42pm
114 garycooper  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:48:45pm

re: #102 docremulac

And I'll take the Democrats seriously about their deep concern for scientifically sound teaching in the school when they teach that Islam is a barbaric ancient religion designed to give pirates and caravan raiders and excuse to rob, pillage, rape and murder.

Point taken.

115 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:49:19pm

If she believes that all sides need to be heard on this issue, and no one side ought to negate the other, then what is there to discuss? We can all get along.

116 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:50:01pm

re: #100 runrabbitrun


If Einstein had not been able to give us scientific proofs for his theories of relativity, he'd only be one in a million other another philosopher/hippies through history saying - whoah, hey dudes! y'know, I just can see that, like, matter and energy are the same thing... you dig?"

Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but I don't think it was Einstein who gave us "proofs"; it was other scientists who provided the real world validations.

117 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:50:11pm

re: #111 garycooper


In other news, Gustav is starting to scare me.

It's following Camille's path.

118 alegrias  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:50:51pm

Progressive BHO partied in Berlin;

Sarah Palin visited wounded US troops at Landstuhl, Germany hospital (July 2007)

[Link: www.ak-prepared.com...]

119 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:51:06pm

I want to hear her state her position on teaching ID in public school in the debates. If she says that it should have equal time with evolution or some such claptrap, then I hope she gets nailed to the wall, that McCain loses and that the evangelicals are unceremoniously jettisoned from the Republican party (which should have happened years ago) in the rudest way possible. And if the Republican party couldn't survive that, then that's just the state of affairs that we'll have to deal with. Might as well face up to them now.

120 runrabbitrun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:51:44pm

re: #112 Grok the Fullness

Actually, scientific method is part of philosophy. Back in the day, philosophy wasn't relegated to the backbench hippy forum. It was the discipline of socrates, Plato, Aristotle, et al. Philosophy, the love of wisdom.

As a former student and lover of philosophy (and science ) myself - I appreciate your respect for the field :) As for the philosopher/hippie comment, I was only using the term to try to make a point.

121 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:51:48pm

re: #109 Cattt

Heh.

My dad's best friend was a Mormon. Daddy used to tease him mercilessly about those golden tablets. :D

Good friends indeed.

122 hillbilly geek  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:52:04pm

re: #100 runrabbitrun

If God had made it perfectly irrefutable that he existed and had created the earth, there's be no such thing as faith.

123 Cygnus  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:52:30pm
124 Irene NYC  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:52:43pm

OT for all you trolls out there

Listening to Obama spokespeople and their talking points against McCain and Palin: If you all say exactly the same thing (i.e., "continue the same failed policies of the last 8 years," blah, blah, blah), using the exact same words, we're going to begin to think that you're nothing but programmed robots, who can't think on your feet and have challenged vocabularies.

Oh, that's accurate?

Got it.

125 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:52:46pm

re: #115 Golem Akbar

If she believes that all sides need to be heard on this issue, and no one side ought to negate the other, then what is there to discuss? We can all get along.

There's plenty to discuss. As a few dozen recent posts here at LGF, many with well over 1000 comments, will attest.

126 CIA Reject  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:52:50pm

re: #115 Golem Akbar

If she believes that all sides need to be heard on this issue, and no one side ought to negate the other, then what is there to discuss? We can all get along.

Precisely. I think this quote, when viewed in it's proper context, was simply a "Rodney King" moment. Unfortunately we've already seen that some in the media will twist it to make Mrs. Palin out to be some kind of religious nut.

Which is really ironic when you consider the real islamic religious nuts that these same media outlets seem to support.

127 wolfie  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:52:59pm

To get an idea of what the left wants in education, you should follow Stanley Kurtz's (and others') investigation of the Chicago Annenburg Challenge. See how Obama, Ayers, & Co. spend money to improve "education." Notice especially how all of the projects meant to improve algebra skills were denied in favor of multi-cult crap, while serious natural science programs were ditched for enviromania and peace studies.

128 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:53:59pm

I have been watching the LGF reactions today along with Kos and MSM to the Sarah Palin announcement. I personally am giddy. But I had to step back and analyze. I don't like per position on creationism but to be honest at the national politics level it really isn't impactfull. Also to be honest I am not anti-abortion. However, I do like her background, her political positions, and much else. I guess where I come out is that she adds sparkle to McCain's campaign. Honestly I am the perfect McCain voter. I consider myself an independent (voted twice for Bill and twice for George W.) I am just about perfectly aligned with McCain on everything. However I have worried that a 72 year old white guy senator with a comb-over was just getting overshadowed by the whole "history" thing of Obama. Sarah Palin, no matter the flaws and whatever the media and Oppo will dish up on her, has changed the calculus immeasurably. Obama no longer has sole possession of the history card, is not the only fresh face, young, vibrant person in the race and he now is looking more and more well...ordinary.

129 hillbilly geek  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:54:09pm

re: #121 Naso Tang

I was thinkin' it Tang, but I wasn't gonna say it...

130 seekeroftruth  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:54:12pm

re: #118 alegrias

Progressive BHO partied in Berlin;

Sarah Palin visited wounded US troops at Landstuhl, Germany hospital (July 2007)

[Link: www.ak-prepared.com...]

She also visited troops in Kuwait on that trip:
[Link: www.ktuu.com...]

131 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:55:09pm

I can't think of any political figure with whom I agree %100 on every issue. If Palin is an advocate for Creationism in school classrooms, then I oppose her position. However, I've also resigned myself to the position that the Republican party coalition will more likely be comprised of Creationism supporters the other major party. And since I align myself out of practicality with the Republicans -- primarily for their economic/foreign policy stances -- I can overlook many of their social issues with which I disagree . The positives therein certainly trump any alignment I might have with any other (viable) party.

Overall, if Palin's able to help retain a Republican administration (which will on the whole serve my preferred political coalitions) in power, I'm all for her. Besides, I don't see her position as veep as having much influence on legislating Creationism wholesale in this country.

132 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:55:17pm

re: #113 buzzsawmonkey

You have it turned around. The "debate" consists entirely of people trying to shoehorn religious belief into science. That makes for a "religious debate" only because religious people are needlessly creating one.

I agree. Generally speaking, evolution can be proven and is science. Creationism is faith based and as such can not be proven.

I'm not sure even debating this subject, in a classroom environment is such a good idea as it detracts from the teaching time; debating fact on one side and opinion on the other. Considering how many comments the subject produces in this forum and the emotion it generates, I can imagine how out of hand the debate would get in a science class.

They want to debate the subject? Join the debate club and go for it. Want to study creationism? Go for it. But not in science class.

133 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:55:28pm
134 oldbennevis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:55:31pm

OT: Brooks and Dunn song at the DNC

Just got this from the Tennessean newspaper (web edition). I was, to say the least, dissapointed that B&D were in support of BOH. It appears that I may have been too quick to judge:

Brooks & Dunn, writer react to song being played after Obama historical speech

Note: The songwriter might yet deserve my scorn.

135 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:55:33pm

re: #121 Naso Tang

Good friends indeed.

Oh, yeah. They teased each other all the time, Roman Catholic versus Morman. I learned a lot about the LDS faith - AND about friendship.

My dad's friend loved to mention that after my daddy rubbed his Saint Christopher medal on his pal's car, the car broke down three times on the way back to California. :D

136 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:55:41pm

re: #89 Killgore Trout

Killgore, I wish I had such optimism.

137 rabidfox  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:55:41pm

Gary Cooper: I'd love to see Gustov lose strength and become just a TD. But I don't think that will happen. But that 'less vulnerable' comment got under my skin a bit. Are you aware that parts of Missippi and Alabama were wiped out entirely? I know that NO got most of the press, but most of the damage was to the east and it was horrific.

138 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:55:41pm

re: #119 Salem

I want to hear her state her position on teaching ID in public school in the debates. If she says that it should have equal time with evolution or some such claptrap, then I hope she gets nailed to the wall, that McCain loses and that the evangelicals are unceremoniously jettisoned from the Republican party (which should have happened years ago) in the rudest way possible. And if the Republican party couldn't survive that, then that's just the state of affairs that we'll have to deal with. Might as well face up to them now.

I'm with you, but only that far. Because McCain can't lose without Obama winning, and I'm not sure that's a price America should have to pay.

139 Charles  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:55:56pm

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

140 Piglet-U93  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:56:04pm

So, has science advanced enough to be able to create life from lifelessness? Has science even observed life being created from lifelessness?

I do not know of any, references anyone?

Sure, I believe life evolves but what made it start? A pure accident?
If the human race lives long enough (without a serious setback) it might even prove (part of) evolution - be able to define how life acquires or losses attributes over time.

Nevertheless, the initiation of life is beyond science at this point in time and may still be unanswered for eons.

it is sufficient for Creationists to have faith and say God set/up the permanent rules of the universe and set it all into motion from nothingness and let it "unravel" or "grow" (evolution).

It is sufficient for Evolutionists to investigate and document life's adapation and changes through time and present the evidence of those observations but to say how life began is presumptuous.

141 ladycatnip  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:56:07pm

Hopefully ID won't be an issue. I certainly don't see it as a deal killer. But the left is certainly going to make hay of it.

142 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:56:10pm
“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

And in fact this is the Constitutional position, Article VI, last paragraph.

143 Iron Fist[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:56:16pm
144 ploome hineni[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:56:32pm
145 philosoteric  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:56:44pm

re: #39 JohnnyReb

Anyone else in favor of privatizing public education?

re: #36 timtitan

I agree. Adolescents are way too self-absorbed to care about questioning their positions with reason. (Plus they have no grammar.)

146 Kenneth  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:57:21pm

re: #108 CIA Reject

Some people have defined "Creationist" in those terms, but others define it very differently. I too believe in G-d as the ultimate creator of life & the universe. I also believe in the scientific validity of evolution & the Big Bang theory of cosmology. I don't use the term "Creationist" to describe my views. I do not find science contradicts my faith in any way. I do not accept the Intelligent Design arguments that pretend to put a scientific face on what are really theological concepts. In fact, I find ID & Creationism to be not only fake science, but very weak theology as well.

.

147 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:57:33pm

re: #123 Cygnus

OT: A left-wing solution to rising sea levels

That's so stupid I would wonder if that was a moby, if I hadn't met so many moonbats...

148 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:57:43pm

re: #119 Salem

then I hope she gets nailed to the wall, that McCain loses and that the evangelicals are unceremoniously jettisoned from the Republican party (which should have happened years ago) in the rudest way possible.

Forgive me, but you sound very bitter about your fellow Republicans. Some are pro-choice. I am pro-Life. I don't want them to be jettisoned from our Party, despite the fact that we share morally opposite positions, not just engage in intellectual sophistry like Creationism v. Evolution.

I can live with it, because I am not an extremist, despite being a vehemently pro-Evolutionist.

As long as I have been alive, extremism has characterised the Democratic Party and leftist parties of every stripe around the world. They do not tolerate apostasy from their agenda of any kind.

So perhaps instead of booting out people from the Republican Party, you can form your own Party instead.

I say this as respectfully as I can.

149 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:57:45pm

re: #119 Salem

I want to hear her state her position on teaching ID in public school in the debates. If she says that it should have equal time with evolution or some such claptrap, then I hope she gets nailed to the wall, that McCain loses and that the evangelicals are unceremoniously jettisoned from the Republican party (which should have happened years ago) in the rudest way possible. And if the Republican party couldn't survive that, then that's just the state of affairs that we'll have to deal with. Might as well face up to them now.

That is just silly. Toss the entire Republican platform out the window and sacrifice the election because of her personal beliefs? She has already stated she would not do this. Didn't you read the entire article?

150 LemonJoose  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:57:51pm

It is going to be really fun watching the ultra-leftist feminists fail to resist their temptation to unfairly belittle and smear a smart, successful, accomplished female vice-presidential candidate.

Hilary Rosen was visibly queasy as she was providing her comments on CNN. She looked like her lunch was not sitting well in her stomach. LOL!

Palin is a fantastic choice. Immediately after Obama picked Biden, I thought she would be the best pick for McCain.

151 Grok the Fullness  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:57:54pm

re: #119 Salem

Or you could form your own party.

152 alegrias  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:58:53pm

re: #130 seekeroftruth

She also visited troops in Kuwait on that trip:
[Link: www.ktuu.com...]

* * *
Thank you for that EVIDENCE Palin spends more time thinking about her troops at war and her country's important current challenges in geopolitics, energy, national security.

153 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:59:06pm

re: #125 Lynn B.

There's plenty to discuss. As a few dozen recent posts here at LGF, many with well over 1000 comments, will attest.

I think that may be kind of like "picking flysh*t out of the pepper." We can agree to disagree. There are bigger fish to fry. [and any other cliche you can think of to express that idea]

154 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:59:20pm
155 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:59:25pm

re: #138 Lynn B.

I'm with you, but only that far. Because McCain can't lose without Obama winning, and I'm not sure that's a price America should have to pay.

I suppose you're right. I must say I'd really be more impressed with her if it weren't for her obvious evangelical bent.

156 mrkwong  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 1:59:51pm

So far as I can tell she's not proposing that creationism should be taught as part of a science curriculum with materials that attempt to pretend that it's been subjected to the scrutiny of any sort of scientific method.

From everything I've been able to figure out about her, she's as close to a sensible libertarian as we might ever see in national elected office (as well as being a whole lot hotter than the alternatives.) And, frankly, having a president (or at least president-in-training) who knows when to pat the enviroloonies on the back and when to throw ropes around their necks is perhaps the one issue, after national security, that will get my vote.

Somehow I think a President Palin would be a whole lot less likely to sign off on, say, snowmobile bans on Federal land, than the usual run of Harvard-educated urban elitists (like, uh, that other guy who was supposed to have given a speech yesterday. Did he?)

I think it's inevitable that a few wrinkles and a little gray will show up before we're able to elect her President, though.

157 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:00:04pm

re: #127 wolfie

To get an idea of what the left wants in education, you should follow Stanley Kurtz's (and others') investigation of the Chicago Annenburg Challenge. See how Obama, Ayers, & Co. spend money to improve "education." Notice especially how all of the projects meant to improve algebra skills were denied in favor of multi-cult crap, while serious natural science programs were ditched for enviromania and peace studies.

End result: EPIC FAIL. No improvement.

158 Kenneth  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:00:27pm

re: #116 Naso Tang

Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but I don't think it was Einstein who gave us "proofs"; it was other scientists who provided the real world validations.

A bit of both, really. Einstein presented mathematical proofs for his theories. Various other scientists conducted the experiments which provided experimental proof.

159 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:00:29pm

re: #2 Cattt

Thank you for your thoughtful response, Charles. I have been educated on this topic because of you, and I put a good deal of weight on your opinion on it.

Truth to tell, based on Gov. Palin's response, I think even more of her.

Agreed. I believe this will be a tempest in a tea cup, compared to some of the other "negatives" the Left will dream up.

Having read that ScienceBlogs link in the other thread, I personally cannot see that she was doing anything other than throwing a bone to the "Creationist" crowd in an attempt to keep them on-side.

Point: if in fact the second part of her statement, that she would not support adding ID to the curriculum is accurate, then that even puts her at odds with the state Republican platform, and at odds in a good way.

Second point: even if she is some kind of stealth IDer, the position of VP really doesn't give her much leverage to advance that cause.

IMHO, there is nothing at all wrong with allowing Creationism/ID being discussed in the classroom, as long as it's quite clearly not part of the curriculum, and does not appear on an exam question except perhaps like this: "Why is Intelligent Design not considered to be science?"

If one of the students raises the ID question in a biology class, a good teacher could use that as a teachable moment, to explain the difference between evidence-based thinking and faith-based thinking, and how that means that science deliberately excludes supernatural explanations for phenomena because they lead to untestable hypotheses, and that this separation serves to protect both science and faith by making each pre-eminent in their own sphere.

And, needless to say, a poor teacher will do their students a disservice when that situation arises, be they a lazy time-server, a stealth IDer, or simply ignorant and ill-trained.

160 Cygnus  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:01:11pm

re: #71 vbspurs

You guys are creating a racket with your drums. [cisboom]

Behave yourselves or I'm bringing in the timpani! (Cue "Dies Irae" from Verdi's Requiem.)

161 Canadian Guy  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:01:12pm

Chris Matthews is now on MSNBC.

Let's see how he handles this.

162 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:01:24pm

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

Not to get a wee bit into the weeds...but technically the VP does get to break ties in the Senate were there an abortion bill or confirmation of a court nominee with a strong stand. But the chances of this are slim. And even as a PR person the VP generally is listen to nearly never.

163 Dianna  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:01:31pm

re: #79 Tom Kratman

Hey! Good to see you!

I hope things are a bit better for you?

164 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:01:42pm

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

165 kynna  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:01:53pm

She's running for the Vice Presidency. In the two years that she was Governor of Alaska, did she ever try to force religion into the schools? There's an actual record to check past that statement.

The clarification and the fact the left feels they have to semi-Dowdify her tells me there's nothing to fear. If there were, they would have provided the whole quote and given examples of behavior consistent with a rabid religion-monger.

When it's not there, they lie. SOP. It's up to us to make sure they don't get away with it, eh?

166 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:02:02pm

re: #161 Canadian Guy

Let's see how he handles this.

Prediction: His third leg won't be tingling.

167 runrabbitrun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:02:05pm

re: #116 Naso Tang

Perhaps I'm being pedantic, but I don't think it was Einstein who gave us "proofs"; it was other scientists who provided the real world validations.

In our family, we have science majors and philosophy majors. The science majors (grandpa rabbit included) would rake me over the coals for mis-reporting that sequence of events! Apologies for the error.

168 CalipHater  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:02:07pm

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

Why would ID or creationism be any different then Chuck? Let the left attack her for her beliefs, that will backfire

169 Perry  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:02:43pm

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.


Since she has a new baby with Down's, her choice to continue that pregnancy to term speaks volumes to me. She would have known by 24 weeks or so that the baby had Down's.

170 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:02:45pm
But this is going to be a point of attack for the left...

I already saw one Lefty blog today refer to Palin as "Bobby Jindal with nice legs".


/...can't remember wich site it was.

171 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:02:45pm

re: #127 wolfie

Here's the wind up, he delivers a breaking ball, ...

That ball is outta here.

172 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:02:53pm

BTW, how much experience does Palin have in international relations? I mean Alaska's got Canada on one side, the remotest stretch of Russia on the other and South Korea has some significant business interests in the state (all that Alaskan coal getting shipped there for starters)...

173 Thanos  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:02:55pm

Sarah's exactly where I am at even though she's a Christian and I'm atheist. If it comes up in class I think it's something you must discuss enough to at least define what science is, and what it can't explain, and why supernatural explanations are not used in science.

We should watch out for attempts of the militant atheist teachers to use this as a jumping off point to belittle religious belief as much as we should watch out for the ID proponents using this as a vehicle to push their version of organized religion or beliefs.

174 Grok the Fullness  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:03:44pm

re: #155 Salem

I have not read she is an evangelist. Do you know the diff? Seriously.

175 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:03:59pm

re: #153 Golem Akbar

I think that may be kind of like "picking flysh*t out of the pepper." We can agree to disagree. There are bigger fish to fry. [and any other cliche you can think of to express that idea]

I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry.

176 cliffster  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:06pm

re: #150 LemonJoose

Hilary Rosen was visibly queasy as she was providing her comments on CNN. She looked like her lunch was not sitting well in her stomach. LOL!

What did she say? Tell me! Tell me!

177 garycooper  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:09pm

re: #137 rabidfox

Gary Cooper: I'd love to see Gustov lose strength and become just a TD. But I don't think that will happen. But that 'less vulnerable' comment got under my skin a bit. Are you aware that parts of Missippi and Alabama were wiped out entirely? I know that NO got most of the press, but most of the damage was to the east and it was horrific.

No, I don't want anyone to get nailed by the hurricane. I was just expressing some concern for my friend and his family, even though I think he was a stubborn fool for rebuilding in New Orleans.

If I got to choose, I'd have Gustav do figure-8's over Cuba until he wears himself out.

178 alegrias  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:13pm

re: #164 Salem

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

* * *
One issue totalitarian much? Re-education Gulag much? How progressive.

179 father_of_10  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:16pm

re: #61 Cattt

I'm no expert, but my impression of the Mormon view is that it ties in somewhat with the laws of Termodynamics - matter can be neither created nor destroyed but is acted upon and changed in form. Spirit is eternal, as is matter. Spirit is in fact material. God organizied existing matter - He did not create matter out of nothing..

Correct me if I messed up, any LDSers in the audience.

I used to lie awake at night as a child, trying to understand how you could create something from nothing. I am guessing that Joseph Smith did also.

You are correct. Even spirits have matter.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7&8 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

180 theblakester  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:19pm

Just watched CNN for laughs, they just sarcastically did a hit job on Palin, but i think they messed up. They just showed her behind the barrel of a shot gun!

181 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:21pm

re: #169 Perry

Since she has a new baby with Down's, her choice to continue that pregnancy to term speaks volumes to me. She would have known by 24 weeks or so that the baby had Down's.

She did know it was Down's.

182 sparrowlake  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:26pm

What about this part of the article?

"Asked for her personal views on evolution, Palin said, "I believe we have a creator."
She would not say whether her belief also allowed her to accept the theory of evolution as fact."


[Link: dwb.adn.com...]


I may be wrong but this sounds like trouble to me. I do have the feeling that Palin was a cynical nomination by McCain, in no small measure as an offering to the religious right.

183 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:34pm

re: #164 Salem

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

How would they do that? You can't be thrown out of political parties in the US -- they're composed of voluntary associations. If you register as a Republican, you ARE one -- "they" can't take that away from you. There are no Soviet-style party purges here.

184 Kenneth  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:42pm

re: #161 Canadian Guy

Chris Matthews is now on MSNBC.

Chris Matthews? Isn't she that squeaky voiced lesbian who got a tingly leg from Obama? Maybe she'll have the hots for Sarah, too...

What? Am I missing something here?

185 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:04:55pm

re: #164 Salem

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

Wow. Were you marching with that group up in Denver this week?

186 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:05:09pm

"Breakthrough nomination" says the Sea of Tranquility-faced Andrea Mitchell.

187 Bookworm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:05:16pm

I'm evolution all the way, but I think that we do our children a profound disservice by pretending in the classroom that other ideas don't exist. I would teach children what the creationists believe -- and then explain that these are matters of faith, and that in school we're limited to teaching science, with science showing, etc., etc.

The problem with shutting down issues in public schools is that, invariably, the issues that get shut down tend to trend towards the Righter sight of the spectrum, with the Lefts gaining hegemony over the curriculum. Give kids information, facts, and analytical abilities. If they're taught facts and analysis, they'll do okay -- and they'll be able to make the intelligent distinction between faith and science, giving each its rightful place without jettisoning either.

188 WrathofG-d  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:05:39pm

re: #139 Charles

Except, as I heard numerous times on the Dem radio stations, that "Palin is only one heartbeat away from the POTUS seat" ...and McCain isn't that young or healthy...

189 Cygnus  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:05:46pm

re: #95 kcladderman

Exactly ! Look how many people believe fire can melt steel!
///

I guess the Bethlehem Steel plant in West Seattle is nothing but a big hoax perpetuated by the Bushitlerhalliburton cabal. How do they fake all that molten metal?
///

190 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:06:00pm

re: #176 cliffster

What did she say? Tell me! Tell me!

OMG! Me too! I can't wait to see that video. Linky?

191 Thanos  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:06:18pm

Also, to help you understand where she is coming from, I lived in Alaska over 20 years, I never met one hard core fundamentalist in my time there.

I worked for a Christian company for five of those years, and the hardest core they got was making sure you chose a gift out of the catalog they would pass out every year on top of your bonus.

192 cliffster  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:06:46pm

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

I agree in general. But I think that if the Republicans win this election, you will see a much more active Vice President than we normally have. And that's not just based on the hype that is ensuing right now and will fade after the RNC. I think McCain will keep Palin in the forefront and you will see her face and hear her voice a lot.

193 talon_262  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:06:52pm

re: #189 Cygnus

I guess the Bethlehem Steel plant in West Seattle is nothing but a big hoax perpetuated by the Bushitlerhalliburton cabal. How do they fake all that molten metal?
///

Shhh...it's not molten steel, it's molten lava!

;-P

194 Old Hippie Vet  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:07:04pm

So what.

I have said a lot of things over the years, big deal. I look at the over all picture not some little thing here or there that I don't agree with.

There is no one I totally agree with 100% of the time. Everyone has there own thing and I don't sweat the small stuff.

I will ask this question; WHO DO YOU WANT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AN AMERICAN OR A COMMUNIST?

195 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:07:29pm

OT - OMG Peggy Noonan is my home girl!

You have GOT to watch this. - via roberth's link.

I'm going to save this video. Talk about noticing the emperor has no clothes!

196 talon_262  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:07:47pm

re: #194 Old Hippie Vet

So what.

I have said a lot of things over the years, big deal. I look at the over all picture not some little thing here or there that I don't agree with.

There is no one I totally agree with 100% of the time. Everyone has there own thing and I don't sweat the small stuff.

I will ask this question; WHO DO YOU WANT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AN AMERICAN OR A COMMUNIST?

Bingo...

197 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:07:58pm

re: #194 Old Hippie Vet

WHO DO YOU WANT IN THE WHITE HOUSE, AN AMERICAN OR A COMMUNIST?

Christ, Jane Fonda's not running too is she? ;)

198 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:02pm
199 alegrias  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:07pm

re: #183 StinkHammer

How would they do that? You can't be thrown out of political parties in the US -- they're composed of voluntary associations. If you register as a Republican, you ARE one -- "they" can't take that away from you. There are no Soviet-style party purges here.

* * *
Progressive purges are still purges. Very sovietski!

200 father_of_10  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:07pm

re: #96 Naso Tang

From what I have read of Joseph Smith, what he though mostly about was when he was next going to get laid, and how he was going to make the case that those golden plates would never actually be seen by anyone.

I guess you haven't read much about Joseph Smith then, have you? Do you stay up late at night thinking of ways to offend people?

201 Lizard by the Bay  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:10pm

Today when I was driving into work I heard this exchange between the KCBS 740 morning anchors about Palin:

Susan Leigh Taylor: "I don't know if Palin will pull voted from Hillary. I mean, she's not a feminist."

Stan Bunger: "Wait a minute, I don't think you can fairly say that!"

Susan Leigh Taylor: "Well, we know she's not a liberal. She's a Republican, after all."

Well, isn't that adorable. The media now decide which women may call themselves femenists and which can't.

202 sparrowlake  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:12pm

re: #87 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Sounds reasonable to me. What is learning without the ability to ask questions of one's self and one's teachers?

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. the teacher should cut off the debate and ell the students that creationaism is not a subject for debate in science class.

203 Moe Katz  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:14pm

The political columnists were saying Mac needed a pro-lifer to shore up the traditional GOP support base, so I suppose that was an important factor in choosing her. On the other hand, I can't imagine this enticing too many disgruntled HRC supporters to cross party lines. I suppose you can't have it both ways.

204 kcladderman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:14pm

re: #189 Cygnus

I guess the Bethlehem Steel plant in West Seattle is nothing but a big hoax perpetuated by the Bushitlerhalliburton cabal. How do they fake all that molten metal?
///

He is an evil genius moron I tell you!
///

205 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:27pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d

Except, as I heard numerous times on the Dem radio stations, that "Palin is only one heartbeat away from the POTUS seat" ...and McCain isn't that young or healthy...

Well, I'll take a western small town mom as POTUS over a Marxist Chicago Community Organizer any day of the week.

206 Dianna  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:28pm

re: #127 wolfie

It's a sad thing, but you'd be surprised how little people making grants want to hear about solid basics. They've convinced themselves that the old methods have failed, and are looking for something new, different and exciting.

Nothing annoys me as much as watching a school play buzz-word bingo in a grant request. Especially since they will insist on using the word "relevant." Kids have no idea what's relevant, or is going to be relevant later.

207 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:33pm

re: #106 Junior

The fact that this would be an issue for some of you is proof that the entire debate of evolution against whatever else you want to call it is a religious one as much for the former as it is for the latter. Evolution has become a religion with just as many zealots.

Totally false, but exactly what I've come to expect from the ID-bots. Because their thinking is based totally on "revealed wisdom" and not upon reason, they are constitutionally incapable of understanding that not everybody thinks that way.

208 Perry  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:34pm

re: #181 jcm

She did know it was Down's.

Thanks. 44-year-old eggs are pretty fragile.

209 Lizard by the Bay  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:43pm

PIMF: feminists

210 Dave the.....  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:51pm

So several lizards are saying she shouldn't be VP because she's a traditional Christian (who used to smoke pot)? Nice.

211 wolfie  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:52pm

re: #133 buzzsawmonkey

Your view is consistent, I'll give you that.

It is also shortsighted.

It is also bigoted.
Who are these "evangelicals?"
How big a group is this? Is it uniform?
Are people uni-dimensional?
Are they defined by one factor?

I have heard Republicans say, "Let's throw out the evangelicals and keep the small-govt, free-market people!"
Outside of using the absurdly broad term "evangelical,"
it never seems to occur to them that there is a HUGE overlap there.

212 Cygnus  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:08:58pm

Karl Rove is on Hannity right now.

213 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:09:01pm

Pat Buchanan. "She's the Queen of Wascilla, for chrissakes!". Shoot me now.

214 theheat  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:09:07pm

re: #119 Salem

It's a vicious circle. You don't vote for the religious dogma and you get Obama. You vote for the Republican party, and religion comes standard on the side, like fries with your burger, and empowers that part of the agenda. In reality, you don't want the fries at all. You want the burger - just the damned burger - thank you very much.

It's like choosing between death by firing squad or death by hanging. Either way, the alternatives are unpalatable, you feel like a sellout, and have done zero to curtail the religious agenda from attaching itself to the party until the end of time.

I don't want fries with that. Nor do I want Obama. I want a stiff drink.

215 Grok the Fullness  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:09:32pm

re: #173 Thanos


Thank you and also to discuss what religion is, seeing as our leaders are always saying "God bless America" and so forth.

216 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:09:32pm

re: #201 Lizard by the Bay

Today when I was driving into work I heard this exchange between the KCBS 740 morning anchors about Palin:

Well, isn't that adorable. The media now decide which women may call themselves femenists and which can't.

Clarence Thomas isn't black.
Sarah Palin isn't a women.

Both have to be liberal to be genuine.

217 theblakester  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:09:55pm

CNN just had the Cafferty File on and hid made fun of Palin getting the Eskimo vote, and laughed thinking it was funny. Try laughing with any other derogatory comment about any other race and see what happens. What an Joke he is for a Journalist.

218 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:09:57pm

re: #197 vbspurs

Christ, Jane Fonda's not running too is she? ;)

At a group lunch at work yesterday, a co-worker asked "why are Dems protesting at a Dem convention?"

I said "because they are communists and anarchists."

Sense of major puzzlement on co-worker's face.

Most people don't know there are any commies in the USA, and anarchists? WTF is that?

219 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:10:23pm

"A bright girl". Pat, she's a woman or lady. Chris Matthews is making the point. Wow, I actually agree with him for once.

220 Cygnus  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:10:27pm

re: #117 Who Watches the Watchmen?

It's following Camille's path.

Oh, crap. Poor Biloxi.

221 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:10:45pm
222 cliffster  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:10:48pm

re: #202 sparrowlake

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. the teacher should cut off the debate and ell the students that creationaism is not a subject for debate in science class.

Sure, but not in a See No Evil, Hear No Evil kind of way. LAAA LA LA LA I CANNOT HEAR THIS CHILD TALK ABOUT RELIGION! Just say that discussion belongs in a social studies class, not a science class.

223 Irene NYC  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:10:51pm

Nasty give and take on Fox just now about why Obama ripped Sarah Palin about being the mayor of a small town by Megan Kelly and an Obama spokesmen. Megan practically had steam coming out of her ears and you could just see how angry she was becoming because of the disrespect being exhibited toward Palin. For someone as cool as she usually this, it was pretty shocking.

I think Obama's camp had better learn to tread carefully.

224 David IV of Georgia  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:10:51pm

I don't think that "Creationism" belongs in science class, except perhaps as an aside of what some people believe (including me) concerning origins. Most everything about Creation is unverifiable scientifically. Just teach science. Most people are smart enough to figure things out if you don't baffle them with bulls**t.

225 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:11:24pm

re: #218 Cattt

Most people don't know there are any commies in the USA, and anarchists? WTF is that?

Lack of higher education?

;)

226 Canadian Guy  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:11:38pm

re: #195 Cattt

OT - OMG Peggy Noonan is my home girl!

You have GOT to watch this. - via roberth's link.

I'm going to save this video. Talk about noticing the emperor has no clothes!

That was hillarious, especially the two-headed baby without health care who is being used a bowling ball at the bowling alley.

227 Perplexed  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:11:46pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Had to ding you down over the scientifically illiterate comment. As to schools teaching science, I want it taught as "this is what we now know" rather than this is an absolute fact. Teach scientific method for investigating anything. Going back just 50 years has many branches of science having taught 'facts' only to have those 'facts' disproven (i.e. the amount of iron in spinach - Popeye be damned).

Current gorbal warming comments show signs of data mining for information that agrees with the warming hysteria. All that means is we have scientists who mislead/exaggerate/falsify for whatever reason reports.

228 sparrowlake  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:11:55pm

re: #202 sparrowlake

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. The teacher should cut off the debate and tell the students that creationism is not a subject for debate in science class.

PIMF

229 maddogg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:11:56pm

re: #198 buzzsawmonkey

Some would say he got thumped upside his head with reality, sadly.

230 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:11:59pm

Aaaargh! Matthews and Buchanan!

/my eyes and ears!

231 Perry  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:12:53pm

re: #213 vbspurs

Pat Buchanan. "She's the Queen of Wascilla, for chrissakes!". Shoot me now.

I'd much rather shoot Pa...never mind.

232 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:13:00pm

re: #138 Lynn B.

She is not alone: McCain Speech Tied to Intelligent Design Group Draws Fire

Here is a part of the article:

Feb. 22, 2007 —

Friday at noon in Seattle, Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., will speak at a luncheon event being co-presented by the Discovery Institute -- the controversial organization that promotes intelligent design theory and combats Darwinism.

McCain is being hammered by a liberal group for associating with the Discovery Institute, although the luncheon is being formally hosted by the CityClub of Seattle and the Seattle World Affairs Council, with the Discovery Institute is one of nine organizations "co-presenting" the event.

"Despite its self-proclaimed position as an unbiased think tank, the Discovery Institute has played a central role in the religious right's national campaign to undermine science education," Campaign to Defend the Constitution co-director Clark Stevens wrote to McCain Thursday. "Under the guise of 'teaching the controversy' the Institute has strived to discredit the theory of evolution -- a theory that has withstood decades of critical analysis from the scientific community -- and replace it with a religiously motivated pseudo-science with no scientific standing."

McCain's campaign pooh-poohs the controversy.

"He's addressing the Seattle World Affairs Council and CityClub of Seattle and there are a number of co-presenters as well, of which the Discovery Institute is one," says McCain exploratory committee spokesman Brian Jones.

Jones says he has seen the senator's speech and it "will focus on issues relating to foreign affairs, specifically about the Pacific Rim."

The Campaign to Defend the Constitution's Timi Gerson says the subject of McCain's speech doesn't matter, and is not the issue.

"It's outrageous for a nationally respected political leader of his stature -- who is furthermore a member of the Senate Committee charged with overseeing science -- to do anything co-sponsored by a group with an explicit anti-science agenda that is trying to push theology in the classroom," Gerson said.[...]

Did McCain even know what the Discovery Institute is?

233 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:13:01pm

Chris Matthews thinks that only a man, or a Neo-Con can be tough.

Ever shoot a moose, Chris? Takes balls of the courageous kind, not the pendulous kind.

234 talon_262  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:13:36pm

re: #230 Fenway_Nation

Aaaargh! Matthews and Buchanan!

/my eyes and ears!

No one should be shocked, because Matthews and Buchanan are on the same side...the wrong one

235 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:13:41pm

The dems are now saying (quietly) that if McCain dies in office, Sarah will be too inexperienced to carry on. They can be accused of ageism, I guess. But that is one of their arguments.

236 Thanos  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:13:47pm

Headed out to pick up supplies for the weekend, back a bit later :)

237 FrogMarch  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:13:58pm

The left-wing attack machine is going to come after her with everything they have. Nothing is off limits. and if they can use half-truths and incomplete quotes to do it- it's to be expected.

238 Perplexed  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:00pm

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

That's true of virtually everything a VP does. Most fade into the woodwork.

239 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:01pm
240 Perry  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:07pm

re: #231 Perry

I'd much rather shoot Pa...never mind.


Please delete that garbage.

241 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:20pm

re: #210 Dave the...

So several lizards are saying she shouldn't be VP because she's a traditional Christian (who used to smoke pot)? Nice.

Which several lizards would that be? Link (or comment number) please?

242 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:21pm

re: #201 Lizard by the Bay

Well, isn't that adorable. The media now decide which women may call themselves femenists and which can't.

Of course, which is why I'm standing by my assessment that not too many Hillary supporters will now throw their votes to McCain simply because of Palin, the woman V.P. -- those "feminists" are LEFTISTS FIRST, who don't consider conservative/Republican female political figures to be representative of "true" feminist ideals. They want a liberal female POTUS, not simply a female POTUS.

243 talon_262  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:27pm

re: #233 vbspurs

Chris Matthews thinks that only a man, or a Neo-Con can be tough.

Ever shoot a moose, Chris? Takes balls of the courageous kind, not the pendulous kind.

Chrissy doesn't even have the pendulous kind...

244 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:29pm

re: #235 Golem Akbar

The dems are now saying (quietly) that if McCain dies in office, Sarah will be too inexperienced to carry on. They can be accused of ageism, I guess. But that is one of their arguments.

Palin has more executive experience right now than Obama does.

245 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:32pm

re: #183 StinkHammer

How would they do that? You can't be thrown out of political parties in the US -- they're composed of voluntary associations. If you register as a Republican, you ARE one -- "they" can't take that away from you. There are no Soviet-style party purges here.

I'm saying that the evangelicals should do their thing at church and keep it at church. Not in the government. Kowtowing to people who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and push for that to be taught in school is, unarguably, not moving into the future, no matter how it's re-framed. Evangelicals who want to leave the public science class alone I don't have such an issue with, but they still ought to keep it in the church or at their homes. Since I have neither the power nor inclination to initiate a "soviet-style purge", then I guess I'm just expressing my opinion that the Republican party would be much better off without the toxic back=sliding influence of the evangelicals.

246 alegrias  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:35pm

re: #230 Fenway_Nation

Aaaargh! Matthews and Buchanan!

/my eyes and ears!

* * *
Both are Catholic like Palin.

247 maddogg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:37pm

re: #233 vbspurs

Chris Matthews thinks that only a man, or a Neo-Con can be tough.

Ever shoot a moose, Chris? Takes balls of the courageous kind, not the pendulous kind.

Chrissy cannot relate to male genitalia...

248 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:42pm

Why aren't they talking about about what they're not talking about?

(Wait, what)

I mean, this announcement COMPLETELY eclipsed the Obamagasmic Show last night. If only for that, I love Sarah Palin.

249 CIA Reject  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:14:51pm

re: #146 Kenneth

Agree with your assessment 100%. So I guess that makes folks like us "philosophical Creationists" versus people like the Discovery Institute who fancy themselves as "scientific Creationists" Big difference.

And that difference, IMHO, is a real hindrance to the debate here. Actually the debate itself is, again IMHO, mis-framed as it appears to me to be a surrogate debate for the real issue of fundamentalism vs reason.

But I'm really not interested in going there right now...

250 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:15:16pm

re: #119 Salem

You know Salem, while some people have very strong opinions about this subject, I have never felt the need to nail folks to the wall that fall on either side of the coin.

While I am not an Evangelical, they have been devoted members of conservatism, and probably find a way to agree with 70-80% of the conservative platform.

Moreover, I find them to be absolutely concerned with doing the right thing, honest in what believe, and love this country.

This woman, and her family, put their money with their mouth is.

She has a son that enlisted for military service in 2007. She delivered a child, knowing it to be born with Downs Syndrome, and kept to her principles. From what it appears, she has walked to beat of her own drum, and I respect that.

Your post concerns me. If you think that somehow, discharging a significant portion of your party's base, who actually may be able to meet you in the middle for a majority of that which you agree, but for ideological purposes would relish in the destruction of those would in large numbers, offer up their service to defend you and your way of life, perhaps you reevaluate where you are most comfortable, and who can most likely support your point of view.

251 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:15:17pm

re: #235 Golem Akbar

The dems are now saying (quietly) that if McCain dies in office, Sarah will be too inexperienced to carry on. They can be accused of ageism, I guess. But that is one of their arguments.

Interesting. And BO has ...this experience does he?

252 Dianna  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:15:18pm

re: #202 sparrowlake

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. the teacher should cut off the debate and ell the students that creationaism is not a subject for debate in science class.

Actually, this is a great teaching moment. They can discuss what makes science science, and what a scientific theory really means. And then, it's just a matter of doing it coolly, and not offending believers.

253 Catttt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:15:38pm

re: #226 Canadian Guy

That was hillarious, especially the two-headed baby without health care who is being used a bowling ball at the bowling alley.

...and the lady with the exploding feet. :D I thought Joe was going to fall out of his chair. :D

254 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:16:00pm

Perry, I updinged, but I agree. Best not to court the wrong impression. I got what you mean though. :)

255 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:16:14pm

re: #108 CIA Reject

I'm a little late to the party here, and this is not exactly my favorite topic, but I think we could all benefit from some clarification in terms-ie what do we mean by "Creationist".

For example: I believe that G*d is ultimately responsible for the creation of the Universe, and I take that as an article of Faith, not of science. In fact I find any attempt to "scientifically prove" what I take as an article of Faith to be an affront to my Faith.

Does that make me a "Creationist"?

I can't speak for Charles, but not in my book. "Creationist", with the scare quotes I would take as meaning a "Young-Earth Creationist", who thinks the Earth is only some 6000 years old, and takes the Book of Genesis as literal truth. This is the kind of creationist that runs the Discovery Institute, and to whom they pander.

If your beliefs run more along the line that God created the Universe, and the Earth within it, and that evolution is the mechanism he chose to populate it with life, well then, I have no problem with that. We have moved the debate to the realm of metaphysics, which is its proper home.

256 alegrias  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:16:27pm

re: #235 Golem Akbar

The dems are now saying (quietly) that if McCain dies in office, Sarah will be too inexperienced to carry on. They can be accused of ageism, I guess. But that is one of their arguments.

* * *
Attack Mac, but Mr. Biden's brain aneurysms aren't a problem however! Stay classy dems.

257 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:16:46pm

The plain fact of the matter is that neither theory really explains the origin-of-everything. Evolution is good science, and explains a lot, but very simply doesn't explain what we evolved from. The "big bang" is a good place to stop the buck, but (i) where did all the stuff that went "bang" come from, (ii) what was here before the big bang, and (iii) what's beyond the limits of the expanding universe?

Creationism simply provides a way to get to the same questions more quickly: i.e., where did "God" come from?

In my mind, we ain't ever going to figure it all out, so why don't we spend our time fishing instead?

Oh, and I like Palin; she's sharp, a good speaker and charismatic as hell. I doubt she'll really attract much of the Hillary vote - she's too obviously conservative, and essentially the anti-Hillary. Doesn't bother me. She's the only V-P pick he could have made that will actually make me reconsider my decision to abstain.

258 Canadian Guy  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:17:01pm

re: #253 Cattt

...and the lady with the exploding feet. :D I thought Joe was going to fall out of his chair. :D

Even Mika lost it.

259 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:17:05pm
She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum.

Members of the state school board, which sets minimum requirements, are appointed by the governor and confirmed by the Legislature.

“I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,” Palin said.

I can live with this. She can believe whatever she'd like, she won't be able to push it in science class and the courts won't let her anyways.

260 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:17:07pm

"I want to outlaw abortion in all circumstances". What? Chris Matthews is insane. Newsflash, I know.

261 cliffster  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:17:08pm

OT: just got a great email..

John Edwards has been banned from making a speech at the Democratic convention for having an affair and lying about it.

In his place, Bill Clinton will be speaking.

... what am I missing?

262 LemonJoose  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:17:31pm

re: #176 cliffster

What did she say? Tell me! Tell me!

She tried to downplay the idea from other commentators that McCain's VP pick was a bold, "outside the box" decision, and said something to the effect that the pick was insulting to women, and Hillary's supporters wouldn't vote for McCain just because you "change one skirt for another skirt." She implied that Hillary would have been a qualified VP pick, but Palin was not.

263 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:17:48pm

re: #187 Bookworm

I'm evolution all the way, but I think that we do our children a profound disservice by pretending in the classroom that other ideas don't exist. I would teach children what the creationists believe -- and then explain that these are matters of faith, and that in school we're limited to teaching science, with science showing, etc., etc.

The problem with shutting down issues in public schools is that, invariably, the issues that get shut down tend to trend towards the Righter sight of the spectrum, with the Lefts gaining hegemony over the curriculum. Give kids information, facts, and analytical abilities. If they're taught facts and analysis, they'll do okay -- and they'll be able to make the intelligent distinction between faith and science, giving each its rightful place without jettisoning either.

That's downright beautiful, Bookworm.

264 Captain Faris  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:17:53pm

For the record, I agree with Charles on opposing any education policy agenda requiring ID or alternatives to Evolution to be taught as science in public schools or requiring it to be taught as philosophy or sociology or literature or in any way.

I have a degree in science education (74) and was taught how to teach evolution. I was also discriminated against by the professors because I let my skepticism for the scientific arguments of evolutionary speciation be known. I never taught science (I was an intelligence analyst instead and my graduate study was in international relations) but I would have taught everything straight out of the evolution-concurring textbooks and not added anything to the contrary. I believe that schools should teach the consensus. If a minority viewpoint exists that happens to be correct, it may mature and become persuasive over time. The best arguments would, so to speak, survive in the dog-eat-dog world of competition.

I, too, am glad that this appears to be the position held by Governor Palin.

Though I support and teach (in other venues) what the Bible (in the original languages and using language as language is really used) says about God's role as Creator, I do not believe or teach (or advocate) every whimsical doctrine or dogma that so-called churches have tried to dish out. Orthodoxy is NOT a sign of accuracy or truthfullness; in fact, I always assume the opposite.

And thanks, Charles, for your (customary) fairness in reporting on this issue.

PC

265 Perry  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:17:55pm

Oy.

My excuse: I was in the car-repair waiting room half the day, then gave blood. And trying to supervise homework.

266 Moe Katz  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:18:26pm

re: #187 Bookworm

267 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:18:35pm

re: #214 theheat

I've often said that the choice between voting Democrat or Republican is the choice between being screwed fast or being screwed slowly. Sometimes it seems like we may as well just get it over with. Get a nice fireworks display at the end instead of a heap of smoking duds.

268 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:18:38pm

re: #245 Salem

I'm saying that the evangelicals should do their thing at church and keep it at church. Not in the government. Kowtowing to people who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old and push for that to be taught in school is, unarguably, not moving into the future, no matter how it's re-framed. Evangelicals who want to leave the public science class alone I don't have such an issue with, but they still ought to keep it in the church or at their homes. Since I have neither the power nor inclination to initiate a "soviet-style purge", then I guess I'm just expressing my opinion that the Republican party would be much better off without the toxic back=sliding influence of the evangelicals.

Yeah. I'm guessing the government is better off with the secular values of Clinton and Edwards perhaps.

People are the sum product of their beliefs. Are you suggesting brain purging to remove any of these nasty evangelical beliefs prior to running for office? Or are they merely banned from public life under your beliefs?

269 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:18:47pm

re: #244 goddessoftheclassroom

Palin has more executive experience right now than Obama does.


I think she's a winner on a lot of levels. I most appreciate the fact that as a woman, she's very "outdoorsy" yet still feminine. A lot of women are going to relate to that. And that's also a quality Hillary didn't have. Not to mention her executive experience. Alaska is known to be a very macho state, and she did well in that environment.

270 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:18:51pm

Cliffster, LOL. Plus ça change...

271 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:19:06pm

Wow...I tuned into MSNBC (effectively tripling it's viewership).

Chrissy Matthews is a particularly bitter drama queen today, isn't she?

272 alegrias  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:19:22pm

re: #245 Salem

* * *
Many of "those" people you despise & want to write off, volunteer to defend you & their country in hell holes, despite their different beliefs.

273 CIA Reject  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:19:27pm

re: #155 Salem

I suppose you're right. I must say I'd really be more impressed with her if it weren't for her obvious evangelical bent.

I'm sorry, but I don't get an "obvious evangelical bent" out of the article that Charles posted above. Does anybody else?

Out of the dishonestly edited version from "Wired" maybe, but not from the whole story

274 Bobblehead  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:19:46pm

I don't know about the rest of you guys but I'm elated, walking on air, just thrilled. Besides making a brilliant pick McCain has stolen the whole weekend news cycle away from the other guy. Also I love her Audrey Hepburn Breakfast at Tiffany's hairdo.

275 maddogg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:20:03pm

re: #239 buzzsawmonkey

He was already conservative when he went in, but he thought that the people involved would at least be interested in the welfare of their own children and their own community. He was disabused of that belief in short order.

Their outlook is, I believe, a result of 40 years of indoctrination in the victim mentality which is so beloved and used by the left against those who are not capable of simple reasoning. An indoctrination the left will continue unless stopped in a most prejudicial way.

I am always shocked with I hear a nitwit say the Bush Administration has done nothing for them. I would be happy to report that any administration has done nothing to me.

276 sngnsgt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:20:10pm

I think Chris Matthews of "Softball" on PMSNBS is going to cry because Sarah Palin is anti-abortion, a woman's right to murder a baby!

277 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:20:19pm

re: #262 LemonJoose

She implied that Hillary would have been a qualified VP pick, but Palin was not.

"I knew myself. I worked with myself. I am friends with myself. And Sarah Palin is no myself"

278 Cygnus  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:20:32pm

re: #193 talon_262

Shhh...it's not molten steel, it's molten lava!

;-P

Yeah, that's right! They ran a pipeline all the way from the Mt. Rainier magma chamber just so they could have their fake molten steel lava! I heard it on Greg Noory's show.

279 IslandLibertarian  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:20:47pm

re: #161 Canadian Guy

Chris Matthews is now on MSNBC.

Let's see how he handles this.

Chris Matthews is a RACIST PIG!
He called Rice and Powell "Showcase appointments" = "Token N-word's"

280 vagabond trader  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:20:55pm

Did Sarah and family sit in a church for nearly 2 decades listening to a racist, troofer preacher God damming Amerikka? Then honestly I find her privately held beliefs on God, evolution and whatever else a non starter.

281 cliffster  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:21:02pm

re: #262 LemonJoose

Whatever. Let's go download some copyrighted music just to spite her.

282 DistantThunder  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:21:04pm

Obama was right! Small town mayor clinging to her guns and her religion!

Be afraid blue states...very afraid...Boo!

283 Son of the Black Dog  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:21:09pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology.

Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

You're totally ridiculous.

284 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:21:09pm

re: #273 CIA Reject

I'm sorry, but I don't get an "obvious evangelical bent" out of the article that Charles posted above. Does anybody else?

Out of the dishonestly edited version from "Wired" maybe, but not from the whole story

No. But some people so despise anyone of an obvious Christian background that they themselves start sounding like these bandanna faced protesters wanting to purge any beliefs that don't mirror theirs..

285 keyword  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:21:18pm

Perhaps evolution is part of creation.

/ducks

286 pegcity  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:21:21pm

re: #242 StinkHammer

Of course, which is why I'm standing by my assessment that not too many Hillary supporters will now throw their votes to McCain simply because of Palin, the woman V.P. -- those "feminists" are LEFTISTS FIRST, who don't consider conservative/Republican female political figures to be representative of "true" feminist ideals. They want a liberal female POTUS, not simply a female POTUS.

clinton's many affairs proved that.

287 sparrowlake  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:22:00pm

re: #252 Dianna

Actually, this is a great teaching moment. They can discuss what makes science science, and what a scientific theory really means. And then, it's just a matter of doing it coolly, and not offending believers.

That discussion belongs in the introduction of the textbook and in the very first class on day one of the science course - not during the classes which teach evolution. IMO.

288 Halman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:22:02pm

re: #250 formercorpsman

Very well put.

289 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:22:08pm

They're interviewing the 21 yo owner of the blog, "Draft Sarah Palin Now".

Bless his heart!

290 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:22:19pm

re: #245 Salem

Yes, I'm quite sympathetic with your frustration at the notion that Creationism-hawking evangelicals tend to associate with the Republican party. I'm simply resigned to the fact that in a free country with free association, that's one of the consequences I have to bear -- that those whose opinions with which I strongly disagree can belong to the same political party as I. Nothing to be done on a practical level except present counter arguments when necessary and hope my side is triumphant.

291 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:22:34pm

On Fox, obviously. Who else?

292 Golem Akbar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:22:38pm

re: #256 alegrias

* * *
Attack Mac, but Mr. Biden's brain aneurysms aren't a problem however! Stay classy dems.

You are right. Every hit they make ought to be countered. "You mention Sarah Palin's inexperience? What about Obama's, who wants to be president?" for example

293 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:23:03pm

re: #158 Kenneth

A bit of both, really. Einstein presented mathematical proofs for his theories. Various other scientists conducted the experiments which provided experimental proof.

Fair enough, based on what is meant by proofs. Hippies can also have proofs, it's just that they may be based on what is the definition of "is".

294 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:23:03pm

re: #144 ploome hineni

Re Israel? Biden, the Demonrat VP candidate, seems to be a very biiig question. We already know about Hussein.

/It's the little things, like cutting off aid to Israel.

295 Moe Katz  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:23:23pm

re: #187 Bookworm

"I'm evolution all the way, but I think that we do our children a profound disservice by pretending in the classroom that other ideas don't exist. I would teach children what the creationists believe -- and then explain that these are matters of faith, and that in school we're limited to teaching science, with science showing, etc., etc."

Two objections:

1. Creationism is pseudoscience and has no place in a science curriculum. At best it obfuscates real scientific issues. You may as well teach the flat earth theory in geography class.

2. There are more sophisticated metaphysical alternatives to creationism that don't conflict with the science. Why teach the crude antiscientific creationism and not the more advanced forms of religious thought such as deism and process theism? Clearly, the science curriculum is not the place for these considerations.

296 DistantThunder  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:23:27pm

re: #276 sngnsgt

I think Chris Matthews of "Softball" on PMSNBS is going to cry because Sarah Palin is anti-abortion, a woman's right to murder a baby!

Does she get to call obama "boy" like Jimmy Carter? I didn't think so - and she wouldn't even want to anyway. It's just those racists on the left like Biden and Carter that can't keep their mouths shut - and are still in office.

297 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:23:41pm

re: #279 IslandLibertarian

Chris Matthews is a RACIST PIG!
He called Rice and Powell "Showcase appointments" = "Token N-word's"

Not to disparage your point, but I stopped paying attention to Matthews years ago for exactly that same reason.

298 talon_262  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:23:51pm

re: #278 Cygnus

Yeah, that's right! They ran a pipeline all the way from the Mt. Rainier magma chamber just so they could have their fake molten steel lava! I heard it on Greg Noory's show.

LMAO!

Seriously, George Noori's a decent enough guy, but I miss Art Bell on Coast-To-Coast AM...while the guests may have been oddballs, his presentation made it worth listening to. Got me through many late nights at work long ago..

299 spaceman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:24:16pm

My first chance to comment on the Palin pick. Initial thoughts:

What a moronic move. She's clearly picked only for the Demographic, but Hillary voters will not vote McCain anyway. She has zero experience, and undercuts the same attack on Obama. She doesn't bring the strength on economy that Romney would, doesn't help in a swing state, and has absolutely zero recognition factor.

I thought to find a lot of the same sentiment at LGF. Imagine my shock to find that this opinion is not much shared among the Lizards, and that in fact the choice seems to be winning exhuberent, fawning and enthusiastic praise.

I fully expect some major ding-downage. Go ahead, I apparently have it coming.

But ... Here's hoping that you are all right, and I'm severely in the ignorant wrong.

300 vagabond trader  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:25:02pm

Also, Biden is no spring chicken at 66 in November, and he also survived a brain aneurysm, no small health matter and one which could recur. btw, where are the Obama's health records, or is he exempt from disclosing them?

301 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:25:05pm
302 wolfie  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:25:13pm

re: #198 buzzsawmonkey

I'd love to have a chat with your dad!
My experience in public schools did the exact thing to me.
It purged me of whatever faith I had in do-good government.

It's funny how we often have to learn these things for ourselves.
My father was a die-hard New Dealer, eager to save the world, a specialist in what used to be called "undeveloped" countries.
After a decade in the field, he was a devoted disciple of Hayek and Friedman.

303 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:25:35pm

re: #298 talon_262

Art Bell

Is he no longer on-air? I once or twice listened to his show. He was okayyy...but his LISTENERS, creepsville.

304 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:25:41pm

re: #223 Irene NYC

Nasty give and take on Fox just now about why Obama ripped Sarah Palin about being the mayor of a small town by Megan Kelly and an Obama spokesmen. Megan practically had steam coming out of her ears and you could just see how angry she was becoming because of the disrespect being exhibited toward Palin. For someone as cool as she usually this, it was pretty shocking.

I think Obama's camp had better learn to tread carefully.

They won't. They are going to be viscious, condescending, and mean. She's small, she's pretty, she's new, and they are going to tear her down any way they can. She's a new Monica Lewinsky for them, and whatever principles they allegedly cling to will be flushed right down the double-standard-crapper if it means belittling and marginalizing anything she's ever done.

Just the fact that she's a Republican makes her a gender traitor, for starters.

305 LeePro  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:25:49pm

re: #195 Cattt

OT - OMG Peggy Noonan is my home girl!

You have GOT to watch this. - via roberth's link.

I'm going to save this video. Talk about noticing the emperor has no clothes!

"Fatuous suck-upping"... ! ! !

You can't beat that with a stick! ! !

306 Irene NYC  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:25:57pm

Megan Kelly covered the 2006 gubernatorial races and watched Palin debate. She believes Palin will be a nasty surprise for Biden.

Palin should do wonders for the Repubs in Ohio, PA, MI and other states in the area. She may even convince people to vote the entire party ticket.

Go Sarah!

307 Dianna  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:25:59pm

re: #287 sparrowlake

Assume the kids were half asleep and not paying attention. It never hurts to go back to the basics.

308 DistantThunder  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:26:16pm

Sean Hannity was reading postings from a pro-HIllary message board - and they were elated. One woman said she wanted to vote for Sarah so she could stick it to Obama - people have no idea how deep the wrath of a woman can go.

Ok, some of you know.

309 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:26:26pm

re: #299 spaceman

My first chance to comment on the Palin pick. Initial thoughts:

What a moronic move. She's clearly picked only for the Demographic, but Hillary voters will not vote McCain anyway. She has zero experience, and undercuts the same attack on Obama. She doesn't bring the strength on economy that Romney would, doesn't help in a swing state, and has absolutely zero recognition factor.

I thought to find a lot of the same sentiment at LGF. Imagine my shock to find that this opinion is not much shared among the Lizards, and that in fact the choice seems to be winning exhuberent, fawning and enthusiastic praise.

I fully expect some major ding-downage. Go ahead, I apparently have it coming.

But ... Here's hoping that you are all right, and I'm severely in the ignorant wrong.

Did you actually see her speak?

310 FrogMarch  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:26:30pm

re: #242 StinkHammer

Of course, which is why I'm standing by my assessment that not too many Hillary supporters will now throw their votes to McCain simply because of Palin, the woman V.P. -- those "feminists" are LEFTISTS FIRST, who don't consider conservative/Republican female political figures to be representative of "true" feminist ideals. They want a liberal female POTUS, not simply a female POTUS.

A modern feminist is two things:

1. Male hater
2. Flaming Left-winger

I'm an old fashioned feminist - I care about fellow females across the globe without the desire to push a male-hating left-wing agenda.

I care about woman who are truly oppressed - not spoiled American women who think they have it bad.

Anyway - you are probably right. McCain might pick up a few votes - but not many, because as you say -- leftists are leftists first.

311 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:26:57pm

re: #308 DistantThunder

Ok, some of you know.

Some of us who are women do.

312 Sunlight  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:27:00pm

The only things I want from the federal govt are providing for the common defense (in the constitution) and rulesetting/busting of crooks in the financial arena (which I would call common defense, since it enables us to function). So whatever she wants to believe in her religion is her business, especially since she apparently isn't going to try to institute her way or the highway in educational curricula.

I'm actually more interested in something I read that said she was captain of her basketball team and some Christian athletes group... and led prayers before the games. This happened at my daughter's school. I don't really care except there are a couple of the girls who call out my daughter's Jewishness in various situations, making her quite uncomfortable. I would be curious as to whether Gov. Palin was in the mode of thinking it was her job to get people not in her religion to either switch over or feel embarrassed by the wording of her prayers and/or comments and teasing.

Actually, it wouldn't make me less excited by her selection as this topic won't be in her job description, but I'm hoping / wishing that they would cut it out and leave people alone in public places.

313 Colonel Panik  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:27:01pm

re: #50 Fenway_Nation

'Mother I'd Like to F***', i.e. 'hot mom'

The Phillipine-based terrorist group Moro Islamic Liberation Front didn't really take that into consideration when they chose their acronym.

I think the Moro Islamic Liberation Front was in existence well before that acronym started in the pr0n world.

314 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:27:09pm

re: #214 theheat

It's a vicious circle. You don't vote for the religious dogma and you get Obama. You vote for the Republican party, and religion comes standard on the side, like fries with your burger, and empowers that part of the agenda. In reality, you don't want the fries at all. You want the burger - just the damned burger - thank you very much.

It's like choosing between death by firing squad or death by hanging. Either way, the alternatives are unpalatable, you feel like a sellout, and have done zero to curtail the religious agenda from attaching itself to the party until the end of time.

I don't want fries with that. Nor do I want Obama. I want a stiff drink.

Get out of my head.

One burger please, just meat, with no fundie carbs on the side.

315 Irene NYC  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:27:18pm

re: #250 formercorpsman

Very well put.

316 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:27:19pm

"What's really going on in Iraq?"

WTF is that supposed to mean, Chrissy?

317 pilgrimbill10  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:27:40pm

Lizards: Here we are debating one's personal belief in one aspect of the many belief's a person has . Public education needs reformation at the least i.e. get back to the basics MATH READING SCIENCE HISTORY I. EDUCATION. ! pb10

318 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:27:41pm

re: #232 NY Nana

She is not alone: McCain Speech Tied to Intelligent Design Group Draws Fire

Here is a part of the article:


Did McCain even know what the Discovery Institute is?

Oh, brother. I'm about as anti-DI as it gets, but I don't think McCain should be turning down speaking opportunities like this just because one in nine of the co-sponsors happens to be a group of this ilk. It's not as if he's, you know, the keynote speaker at an ID fundraiser or anything.

I'm open to arguments to the contrary.

319 Cygnus  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:27:52pm

re: #278 Cygnus

Yeah, that's right! They ran a pipeline all the way from the Mt. Rainier magma chamber just so they could have their fake molten steel lava! I heard it on Greg Noory's show.

Or is that Chuck Noory? Can't remember - darn chemtrails are screwing up my brain.
///

320 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:28:05pm
321 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:28:06pm

re: #202 sparrowlake

If it comes up in science class the teacher should NOT allow the science lesson to be diverted. the teacher should cut off the debate and ell the students that creationaism is not a subject for debate in science class.

You are absolutely right. Public school teachers are not qualified to teach spirituality; nor or many church pastors for that matter.

322 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:28:16pm

re: #288 Halman


Too many typos, but thanks.

I try to be rare in my criticisms because there are many great minds who offer excellent opinions here.

Salem has always been one of them.

That post disturbed me.

323 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:28:23pm

re: #295 Moe Katz

Interestingly, we were taught the "flat earth" theory in High School - in history class. And we examined why people thought that, and why they changed the theory, etc. etc. Good analogy, maybe?

Come to think of it, they never actually said the "flat earth" theory was wrong, either. Kinda left it to us to decide.

324 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:28:27pm

I thought Sarah was an inspired choice- not only does she play to the demographic, she plays to the base. John McCain killed tow birds with one stone. Brilliant.

325 LeePro  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:28:49pm

re: #187 Bookworm

I'm evolution all the way, but I think that we do our children a profound disservice by pretending in the classroom that other ideas don't exist. I would teach children what the creationists believe -- and then explain that these are matters of faith, and that in school we're limited to teaching science, with science showing, etc., etc.

The problem with shutting down issues in public schools is that, invariably, the issues that get shut down tend to trend towards the Righter sight of the spectrum, with the Lefts gaining hegemony over the curriculum. Give kids information, facts, and analytical abilities. If they're taught facts and analysis, they'll do okay -- and they'll be able to make the intelligent distinction between faith and science, giving each its rightful place without jettisoning either.

BRAVO!
You haven't commented here very much, but you certainly should!
I welcome your balanced remarks!

326 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:28:50pm

Yep, apparently a large number here are hurt by the notion that evangelicals should keep their religion out of politics (even though that rules out any kind of "big-tent" that is required to win elections in the foreseeable future) and that anyone could even express that belief. But I think many of the founding fathers would agree. Even without knowing about evolution.

Obviously, that means I'm planning them all from the dead in a voodoo-style ritual so they can lead a soviet-style purge to remove evangelicals. It couldn't simply be my educated opinion that I'm entitled to.

327 wolfie  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:01pm

re: #206 Dianna

Interesting perspective, Dianna.
It's not an encouraging scenario. Sigh.

Maybe educational conservatives...you know, the kind who think kids should learn the multiplication tables...should learn to present their programs in multi-cult-neo-progressivese!

328 theblakester  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:04pm

Does any LGFer's know if what Glenn Beck on CNN just said? He said something about the bridge to know where. Palin told them to take the money and shove it because it was a waste of taxpayers money, and that her state didn't need or want the money and sent it back.

329 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:06pm

re: #304 Pawn of the Oppressor

They won't. They are going to be viscious, condescending, and mean. She's small, she's pretty, she's new, and they are going to tear her down any way they can. She's a new Monica Lewinsky for them, and whatever principles they allegedly cling to will be flushed right down the double-standard-crapper if it means belittling and marginalizing anything she's ever done.

Just the fact that she's a Republican makes her a gender traitor, for starters.

The pushier the Obama camp gets about Palin the better. If you want bad campaign maneuvers, that's at the very top of the list.

330 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:06pm

Barack Obama called Governor Palin, and spoke to her several minutes.

"Sweetie. You're a terrific candidate. Good luck (but not too much luck). Be careful clinging to your guns. Ciao!"

331 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:09pm

re: #319 Cygnus

Or is that Chuck Noory? Can't remember - darn chemtrails are screwing up my brain.
///

I believe it's George Noory.

332 pilgrimbill10  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:13pm

PIMF i.e. education

333 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:19pm

re: #324 Sharmuta

Err- two birds. PIMF.

334 Cygnus  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:25pm

re: #300 vagabond trader

Also, Biden is no spring chicken at 66 in November, and he also survived a brain aneurysm, no small health matter and one which could recur. btw, where are the Obama's health records, or is he exempt from disclosing them?

The Chosen One can heal himself.

335 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:41pm

re: #319 Cygnus

Or is that Chuck Noory? Can't remember - darn chemtrails are screwing up my brain.
///

Sorry!, Flight 3 Bravo-86 didn't check it's do not spray list last Tuesday, won't happen again.

336 Ward Cleaver  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:29:59pm

re: #4 jcm

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

Snobs.

337 Scorch  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:30:27pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

So I guess your saying progressive liberals are better scientists and are more literate?

338 HelloDare  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:30:31pm

Just watched Palin's acceptance speech. (See spinoff links upstairs.) What a ray of sunshine compared to the pall cast by the Democrat's convention.
Not only does she outshine Biden and Obama, she's also a stark contrast to Michelle. Sarah is somebody I'd love to talk to -- Biden and Michelle, no way.

339 theblakester  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:30:33pm

Sorry, I missed spelled bridge to nowhere.

340 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:30:34pm

re: #328 theblakester

Does any LGFer's know if what Glenn Beck on CNN just said? He said something about the bridge to know where. Palin told them to take the money and shove it because it was a waste of taxpayers money, and that her state didn't need or want the money and sent it back.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

341 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:30:53pm

re: #310 FrogMarch

McCain might pick up a few votes -- but not many, because as you say -- leftists are leftists first.

I'm betting that any votes he receives because of the Palin-as-Woman factor will most likely be from unideological, unaffiliated types. The ideologues won't subjugate their leftist standing to female identity politics.

342 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:31:01pm

re: #331 Fat Jolly Penguin

I believe it's George Noory.

I thought it was George CLOONEY

343 HelloDare  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:31:21pm

re: #301 jcm

Should turtle stacking be taught in school?

Only as an aerobic sport in gym class.

344 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:31:42pm

re: #255 Alberta Oil Peon

I can't speak for Charles, but not in my book. "Creationist", with the scare quotes I would take as meaning a "Young-Earth Creationist", who thinks the Earth is only some 6000 years old, and takes the Book of Genesis as literal truth. This is the kind of creationist that runs the Discovery Institute, and to whom they pander.

If your beliefs run more along the line that God created the Universe, and the Earth within it, and that evolution is the mechanism he chose to populate it with life, well then, I have no problem with that. We have moved the debate to the realm of metaphysics, which is its proper home.

Generally, Creationism is the young-Earth belief, or the idea that G-d created the universe and the beings in it without using evolution.
ID has the development of life following the path of the evidence, but with explicit miracles beyond the natural laws at various points.
"Theistic evolution" is a philosophy that believes evolution occurred as the evidence shows, but that it was initiated and guided to some degree by G-d, by using the physical laws. Any intervention would be to select which of several random possibilities actually occurred.

Personally, I believe in theistic evolution, although I had not heard the term until another lizard used it.

All of these three are not science, since they require a supernatural being. However, theistic evolution is fully compatible with science. Mentioning these as non-scientific philosophical models is OK, as is covering some of the interpretations of the Bible, such as a "day" not being a 24 hour day. But in the end, science requires its theories to be falsifiable, and these are not, which is why I call them philosophical.

345 Dave the.....  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:32:16pm

I come from a family of teachers. Most taught in smaller districts and did okay. My sister makes pretty big bucks in a suburban school.

One of many reasons I dispise the unions though...in my Aunts district...they didn't get a big enough raise, so the union sent a letter out to all teachers, telling them to do the bare minimum work for the next year. Come in at the last minute, leave right on time. Take no work home, don't help students after class (unless it is in the few minutes between class dismissal and the end of the work day according to the contract). That sort of thing.

Bad district, you say? No. She made big bucks teaching. And is now retired at age 56 with full pay and benefits. It's really a nice gig and most teachers have no clue how good they have it. My relatives are surprised that I frequently work 10-12 hour days, and also come in on weekends.

346 Canadian Guy  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:32:41pm

re: #300 vagabond trader

Also, Biden is no spring chicken at 66 in November, and he also survived a brain aneurysm, no small health matter and one which could recur. btw,

Are you a medical professional, because I heard what you're saying about reoccurence is actually false.

347 father_of_10  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:32:46pm

Once again, the Republicans have upstaged the Democrats. Democrats claim to be the party of the minorities, but the Republicans have had minorities as Secretary of State (X2) and Attorney General.

Poor Democrats, all talk and no walk.

348 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:32:48pm

re: #326 Salem

Salem, don't play that card.

You pressed the buttonfor an inflammatory post, and drew citicism for it.

349 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:32:49pm

re: #341 StinkHammer

I'm betting that any votes he receives because of the Palin-as-Woman factor will most likely be from unideological, unaffiliated types. The ideologues won't subjugate their leftist standing to female identity politics.

Generally, I would agree. But the level of hope Hillary-supporters had was CRUSHED by Obama and his "surrogates" (I hate that word). It was done in an extremely sexist way.

Believe me, these feminists will not forget, no matter how many c-word references their liberal friends will remind them McCain used.

350 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:32:50pm

re: #322 formercorpsman

Too many typos, but thanks.

I try to be rare in my criticisms because there are many great minds who offer excellent opinions here.

Salem has always been one of them.

That post disturbed me.

I apologize. I can be spectacularly unrestrained, sometimes. And I thank you, though I don't think I'm a great mind. If I am, it certainly doesn't seem to profit me.

351 Dianna  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:32:54pm

re: #327 wolfie

It will come around again. Eventually.

352 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:33:14pm

re: #200 father_of_10

I guess you haven't read much about Joseph Smith then, have you? Do you stay up late at night thinking of ways to offend people?

No it doesn't take all night, but I've heard ex LDSers say much worse than I do in this this polite company.

We don't have to continue a slanging match, but for the record, I think Joseph Smith was a (convicted) con man who succeeded beyond most con men's dreams (except for being murdered when caught in the wrong bed), and once the momentum was big enough it took a life of it's own where one cannot have an alternative opinion without being excommunicated from ones family and upbringing. That latter issue is much stronger than something simple like logic and facts of history.

If you are here to hear only that which can't offend, may I suggest an LDS forum somewhere?

353 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:33:21pm

re: #312 Sunlight

The only things I want from the federal govt are providing for the common defense (in the constitution) and rulesetting/busting of crooks in the financial arena (which I would call common defense, since it enables us to function). So whatever she wants to believe in her religion is her business, especially since she apparently isn't going to try to institute her way or the highway in educational curricula.

I'm actually more interested in something I read that said she was captain of her basketball team and some Christian athletes group... and led prayers before the games. This happened at my daughter's school. I don't really care except there are a couple of the girls who call out my daughter's Jewishness in various situations, making her quite uncomfortable. I would be curious as to whether Gov. Palin was in the mode of thinking it was her job to get people not in her religion to either switch over or feel embarrassed by the wording of her prayers and/or comments and teasing.

Actually, it wouldn't make me less excited by her selection as this topic won't be in her job description, but I'm hoping / wishing that they would cut it out and leave people alone in public places.

That is one of the largest reasons I am against religion in schools. When I was in elementary school, my best friend was picked on by the teachers and thus the students because he didn't join in the prayers and Christian activities, his family being Jewish.

354 Colonel Panik  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:33:52pm

Genesis According to Sarah Palin

And on the 5th day, the lord created the moose, and the caribou and all the horned and hoofed critters.

And on the 6th day, the lord created the Weatherby, that we might harvest the horned and hoofed critters.

And on the 7th day, we had mooseburgers, and they were good.

355 DeafDog  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:34:02pm

re: #299 spaceman

Finally, a synical voice! I happen to like the pick even though she wasn't my top choice. But the LGFers have been gushing way too much. I agree that this is a risky pick, but it is hardly 'moronic.' Taking a candidate in part because she is a woman is a risky strategy, but it could pay off...big!

McCain is gambling that he has enough gravitas and doesn't need any additional heft to win. So he added a highly likeable strong woman as #2.

My concern is that she will become a gaffe machine in the heat of the campaign.

We should know much more after she does the Sunday talk show circuit on Sunday.

356 Bryantay  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:34:14pm

Out of curiousity I signed up for the forums on Hilllary Clinton's website to see what the they were saying about the Palin pick. here is just a small sampling.

---
Hoo Ray! Fu*k the DNC. Fu*k Obama.
They brushed off the women base like dirt. and the GOP pick them up. Go McCain. Go GO OG !
---

OMG!
Buuurn Obama Buuurn! What a slap in the face.
If it's Palin, I will put blood and sweat into campaigning for that team.

---

GAME SET MATCH

---

OMG! Republican candidate chooses a woman! Take that Democrats,party of sexism! ROFLMAO!

---

All this B.S. that the Republicans are racist and sexist, yet colin powell and condi rice were some of the biggest players in the rnc.
Now Sarah has been confirmed. What does that tell you about the DNC.. Hypocrits.

---

I LOVE McCain! He pulled through for us. The Maverick does it again!

---

Leave it to the GOP to pick a woman for the ticket.
Obama snubbed the most viable and experienced woman who received 18 million votes, for another MALE.
I have a feeling, somewhere somehow, Hillary is snickering!

---

Ok, can anyone confirm this for me? Is it true that we must donate to McCain by Aug. 30th in order for him to accept it? I need this response, ASAP!

---

I Will Have No Problem Voting That Ticket! Look Out Obama

---

Do you all hear the sound of the running feet of all the women the Obama camp tossed aside? It is THUNDEROUS!

---

Well done, Sen. McCain! I also appreciate the fact that she has a child with Down's Syndrome. She'll have an understanding of what we parents of children with a disability go through. That's it for me. I will be voting McCain/Palin, a Republican team, for the very first time in my life. YEOW, how my life has changed this year.

---

THAT WAS A BRILLIANT MOVE, MCCAIN!
Things are going to get really interesting .

---

That's great news...Sarah she is just the perfect pick...
Young mother of five (44) business woman, former mayor and now Gov.of Alaska...
She is a great exsample for women...

---

357 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:34:29pm

re: #354 Colonel Panik

Genesis According to Sarah Palin

And on the 5th day, the lord created the moose, and the caribou and all the horned and hoofed critters.

And on the 6th day, the lord created the Weatherby, that we might harvest the horned and hoofed critters.

And on the 7th day, we had mooseburgers, and they were good.

And all the congregation said;
AMEN!

358 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:34:31pm

re: #299 spaceman

My first chance to comment on the Palin pick. Initial thoughts:

What a moronic move. She's clearly picked only for the Demographic, but Hillary voters will not vote McCain anyway. She has zero experience, and undercuts the same attack on Obama. She doesn't bring the strength on economy that Romney would, doesn't help in a swing state, and has absolutely zero recognition factor.

I thought to find a lot of the same sentiment at LGF. Imagine my shock to find that this opinion is not much shared among the Lizards, and that in fact the choice seems to be winning exhuberent, fawning and enthusiastic praise.

I fully expect some major ding-downage. Go ahead, I apparently have it coming.

But ... Here's hoping that you are all right, and I'm severely in the ignorant wrong.

what non "moronic" choice would you have made?

359 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:34:31pm

re: #330 vbspurs

Barack Obama called Governor Palin, and spoke to her several minutes.

Well, he's gotta do damage control after that initial campaign response about her inexperience, after all...

"Look how magnanimous I am!"

360 Dave the.....  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:34:32pm
Does any LGFer's know if what Glenn Beck on CNN just said? He said something about the bridge to know where. Palin told them to take the money and shove it because it was a waste of taxpayers money, and that her state didn't need or want the money and sent it back.

Correct. She said improved ferry service will do the job for much less money. Much much less.

NRO is reporting the Obama voted to spend the money on the bridge.

361 spaceman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:34:59pm

RE #309 really grumpy big dog Johnson ... "Did you actually see her speak?"

Not much. I'm admittedly ignorant, and seriously very much hoping that my initial reaction is dead wrong. I was hoping for Romney. My wife's independent reaction BTW, was exactly the same as mine.

Sorry for the unofficial quote method. I'm getting javascript errors in IE7.

362 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:35:10pm

re: #354 Colonel Panik

And on the 7th day, we had mooseburgers, and they were good.

LOL. *claps*

Betcha, if Governor Palin is elected alongside Senator McCain, that they'll have mooseburgers at the Inaugural Balls.

363 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:35:32pm

I missed the entire batch of morning threads because of the outage, but re: #336 Ward Cleaver

Snobs.

Worse... Leftists.

For them, there are no rules, only tools***. Mysoginy, hatred, belittlement of her accomplishments, tearing her down as window dressing, implying she's an unfit mother, a whore, a cheat, a house harlot, "gender traitor", stooge, fool, hick, religious psychopath, an Ellie May Clampett, buck-toothed gun-toting redneck girl, pick an angle, you'll find it over at DU and Kos already, and there will be articles written by establishment "feminists" talking about what an idiot she is on Monday morning.

(*** This principle works great in art, but not politics)

364 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:35:44pm

re: #330 vbspurs

Man, you just made think of something.

Could you imagine if someone in the campaign had enough forethought to think in the metaphorical realm in suggesting Palin?

Obama made those stupid comments about guns and religion.

Trotting out someone antithetical to the description tangibly makes him a liar.

365 HelloDare  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:36:34pm

re: #356 Bryantay

This is the best news I've heard all year. Seriously. Obama and his minions are scaring the hell out of me.

366 Celtic Templar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:36:41pm

Repeating what I heard from Medved:

If God forbid McCain falls ill, Palin can always pick Biden as VP to shore up the experience issue :)

367 Eowyn2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:36:52pm

re: #310 FrogMarch

A modern feminist is two things:

1. Male hater
2. Flaming Left-winger

I'm an old fashioned feminist - I care about fellow females across the globe without the desire to push a male-hating left-wing agenda.

I care about woman who are truly oppressed - not spoiled American women who think they have it bad.

Anyway - you are probably right. McCain might pick up a few votes - but not many, because as you say -- leftists are leftists first.

Back in 1980, NOW had a large membership. NOW now has a few thousand die hard liberal women members. I think the real feminists are those who arent afraid to be a woman first and foremost. Those of us who are not insulted when a male opens the door for us (and have even been known to insist upon it:) A real feminist is like yourself, one who believes that there is a hell of a lot more to women's rights do not stop at being able to have an abortion on demand.

368 Piglet-U93  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:37:14pm

re: #257 auldtrafford

The plain fact of the matter is that neither theory really explains the origin-of-everything. Evolution is good science, and explains a lot, but very simply doesn't explain what we evolved from. The "big bang" is a good place to stop the buck, but (i) where did all the stuff that went "bang" come from, (ii) what was here before the big bang, and (iii) what's beyond the limits of the expanding universe?

Creationism simply provides a way to get to the same questions more quickly: i.e., where did "God" come from?

In my mind, we ain't ever going to figure it all out, so why don't we spend our time fishing instead?

Oh, and I like Palin; she's sharp, a good speaker and charismatic as hell. I doubt she'll really attract much of the Hillary vote - she's too obviously conservative, and essentially the anti-Hillary. Doesn't bother me. She's the only V-P pick he could have made that will actually make me reconsider my decision to abstain.

You said is better than I did , thanks ding + 1

369 father_of_10  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:37:25pm

re: #352 Naso Tang

No it doesn't take all night, but I've heard ex LDSers say much worse than I do in this this polite company.

We don't have to continue a slanging match, but for the record, I think Joseph Smith was a (convicted) con man who succeeded beyond most con men's dreams (except for being murdered when caught in the wrong bed), and once the momentum was big enough it took a life of it's own where one cannot have an alternative opinion without being excommunicated from ones family and upbringing. That latter issue is much stronger than something simple like logic and facts of history.

If you are here to hear only that which can't offend, may I suggest an LDS forum somewhere?

I guess my problem is taking offense when you spread lies about my religion, as is illustrated by your latest posting here. This is political forum, and at least 3 times now you have used it to libel my religion. Might I suggest you take your sputum to an anti-Mormon forum? Let's focus on LGF politics here.

370 Eowyn2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:37:28pm

re: #337 Scorch


nice avatar

371 AW  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:37:33pm
because in the clarification she’s describing a position that doesn’t cause me (a staunch anti-creationist) any discomfort.

I wonder why that is...

Is it that hard to say "she's wrong, but I'm voting for her anyways because I hate Obama"?

372 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:38:02pm

OT ,, best line I've heard so far about The Chosen Ones speech last night

From MILE HIGH to an INCH DEEP

373 theblakester  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:38:03pm

Thank you SATTV4U2, on the bridge to nowhere. This was from wikipedia.

The project was canceled on September 21, 2007 by Alaska governor Sarah Palin.

374 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:38:14pm

re: #356 Bryantay

This one made me laugh and cheers:

OMG!
Buuurn Obama Buuurn! What a slap in the face.
If it's Palin, I will put blood and sweat into campaigning for that team.

But this one reminded me of why I do not like feminists:

Obama snubbed the most viable and experienced woman who received 18 million votes, for another MALE.

FOR ANOTHER MALE, she shrieks. That's what gets to them. Not that it was another Senator, but that it was a man. I don't like this undercurrent of anti-male sentiment at all.

375 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:38:20pm

re: #350 Salem


I have moved on.

I want to go to a place where the beer is on tap, and those little ice chips are floating on top.

Cheers.

376 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:38:20pm
377 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:38:27pm

anyone heard whether Geraldine Ferraro has commented on Palin yet?

378 Dianna  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:38:36pm

Well, I'm heading out. This has been an interesting day, and I'm glad so many of you are happy with Palin.

379 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:39:01pm

re: #376 Killgore Trout

She's a Hempster...
"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled,"

long long winters up in Alaska!

380 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:39:08pm

re: #349 vbspurs

Believe me, these feminists will not forget, no matter how many c-word references their liberal friends will remind them McCain used.

Possibly, but remember that these are the same "feminists" that

A) Displayed no dismay at the treatment of women by Bill Clinton (since he was a Democrat POTUS)

B) Displayed no enthusiasm about the Iraqi women freed from tyrannical subjugation by G.W. Bush (because he's a republican POTUS)

Those examples tell me their leftism trumps any claim they make to supporting women on the whole.

381 basho  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:39:15pm

Of course Palin is a creationist. Darwin said if evolution was true all offspring would be killed off. And Palin has 5 children!

/Cato

Seriously though, Palin is a great pick. I think McCain will win easily.

382 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:39:22pm

re: #363 Pawn of the Oppressor

And yet they complain about Republican talking points and the right-wing smear machine.

383 LemonJoose  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:39:26pm

re: #277 vbspurs

"I knew myself. I worked with myself. I am friends with myself. And Sarah Palin is no myself"

It was Hilary Rosen (moonbat lesbian, former RIAA spokeswoman) commenting on CNN, not Hillary Clinton.

384 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:39:45pm
385 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:40:03pm

re: #379 sattv4u2

I'll bet the Northern Lights are pretty cool.

386 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:40:19pm

re: #355 DeafDog

Finally, a synical voice! I happen to like the pick even though she wasn't my top choice. But the LGFers have been gushing way too much. I agree that this is a risky pick, but it is hardly 'moronic.' Taking a candidate in part because she is a woman is a risky strategy, but it could pay off...big!

McCain is gambling that he has enough gravitas and doesn't need any additional heft to win. So he added a highly likeable strong woman as #2.

My concern is that she will become a gaffe machine in the heat of the campaign.

We should know much more after she does the Sunday talk show circuit on Sunday.

She has done the Sunday talk show circuit before. It's not as if she stepped out of nowhere to win this nomination. Check out YouTube. And she's just about the last person among the potential Veep choices discussed that I'd worry about becoming a gaffe machine, and heat only seems to make her burn brighter.

387 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:40:43pm

re: #364 formercorpsman

Man, you just made think of something.

Could you imagine if someone in the campaign had enough forethought to think in the metaphorical realm in suggesting Palin?

Obama made those stupid comments about guns and religion.

Trotting out someone antithetical to the description tangibly makes him a liar.

Good point! Mind, we knew that anyway. Check under the bus. ;)

388 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:41:03pm

re: #385 Killgore Trout

I'll bet the Northern Lights are pretty cool.

"Far out man ,,, pass the twinkies !"

389 Sylvester_T_Cat  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:41:24pm

re: #29 Killgore Trout

I still don't trust Republicans on education reform or science policy.

Republicans are the only source any education reform will/can come from.

Democrats have an incestuous relationship with the education industry that defies description. Think "National Education Association" for starters, then "American Federation of Teachers", "American Association of University Professors"-- these are all big stockholders in the Democratic Party.

Science policy maybe isn't as obvious as education. My attitude is that most of what needs to be done in science is best done by private industry as opposed to big government, whether it's medical research or space exploration. Government funding may definitely be needed, but I don't want some GS-12 making the big decisions based on whatever the National Association of Envirofreaks wants. Republicans are supposed to favor less-intrusive government, theoretically anyway ;-).

/yeah, about all we can do is vote; I make sure I do

390 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:41:42pm

I think there's a couple fallacies here.

First, not all Hillary supporters are women. I know- I'm related to one.

Second, I don't think every Hillary supporter is hardcore leftist. A lot of them are, but not all. I think the choice of Palin will be welcoming to many moderate democrats who supported Hillary.

391 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:42:23pm

re: #368 Piglet-U93

Thanks. You are very kind.

Incidentally, I've given up pork (doc's orders). Thought you should know.

392 keyword  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:42:37pm

re: #376 Killgore Trout

She's a Hempster...
"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled,"

The majority of people in her age group and younger have smoked pot.
Cocaine is another matter.
Did she ever sell it? Did Barack ever sell crack? I only ask because many coke/crack users do.

393 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:42:39pm

Let's see. a Communist vs. a Creationist...
Nope, that is not a hard one to decide.

394 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:43:05pm

re: #380 StinkHammer

Those examples tell me their leftism trumps any claim they make to supporting women on the whole.

You're right. :)

But I am talking about Hillary supporters. I confess, my mother was ready to vote for her, and she is a conservative Catholic, and not a feminist liberal. Let's not overthink what it means to support Hillary. It was for history, as much as for Hillary herself.

McCain gave them hope again, regardless of their specific politics and backgrounds.

395 Sunlight  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:43:39pm

re: #384 buzzsawmonkey

There were moments when these things were uncomfortable. But childhood is uncomfortable. Had I been in the US, the discomforts would have been different, but there were still discomforts. And I cannot say that these discomforts harmed me in any way that I am aware of.

I agree with that. That's why I tell my daughter to hold her chin up and ignore these kids. There are plenty of fun kids who don't act like that. And I tell her that pretty much no matter what happens during our day, we have won the cosmic lottery of birth to be living where we do.

396 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:44:14pm

re: #318 Lynn B.

We can agree to disagree. I don't think he even put the pay check into his reason to go.

He knew what the subject was, and chose to go. This makes me somewhat uneasy, especially in vue of Palin's agenda.

The Discovery Institute is reprehensible. That alone should, I feel, have been enough for him to politely decline.

397 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:44:25pm

re: #392 keyword

The majority of people in her age group and younger have smoked pot.
Cocaine is another matter.
Did she ever sell it? Did Barack ever sell crack? I only ask because many coke/crack users do.

I would not trust ANYONE under age 60 who says they have never even tried weed.

398 theblakester  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:44:36pm

I think if you want to beat Obama to the youth vote, then Palin with her 420 history will reel them in so to speak.

399 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:44:41pm

re: #393 rawmuse

Let's see. a Communist vs. a Creationist...
Nope, that is not a hard one to decide.

Except he's not a Communist and she's not a Creationist...

400 DeafDog  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:44:47pm

re: #386 Lynn B.

She has done the Sunday talk show circuit before. It's not as if she stepped out of nowhere to win this nomination. Check out YouTube. And she's just about the last person among the potential Veep choices discussed that I'd worry about becoming a gaffe machine, and heat only seems to make her burn brighter.

Yes, she did step out of nowhere. She is a surprise pick. Are you kidding? She may have done onesy-twosy appearances before, but now she has George Steppenappolaus gunning for her...you know he wants to land a gaffe. It's a completely different ballgame.

It's an exciting. I'm excited. But don't fool yourself thinking that she can walk on water.

401 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:45:18pm

re: #394 vbspurs

McCain gave them hope again, regardless of their specific politics and backgrounds.

GGGAAHHH ,, can you use another word !

402 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:45:27pm

re: #310 FrogMarch

A modern feminist is two things:

1. Male hater
2. Flaming Left-winger

I'm an old fashioned feminist - I care about fellow females across the globe without the desire to push a male-hating left-wing agenda.

I care about woman who are truly oppressed - not spoiled American women who think they have it bad.

Anyway - you are probably right. McCain might pick up a few votes - but not many, because as you say -- leftists are leftists first.

My wife was in chemistry grad school in the early 1980's. She had our daughter during that time, and got absolutely no help from the female faculty, "feminists" all. In fact, they probably looked down on her.
One reason she's now a lawyer (criminal defense).

403 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:45:49pm

re: #344 Kosh's Shadow

I have no problem with that. You explained it better than I.

404 Piglet-U93  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:46:04pm

re: #318 Lynn B.

Well the Commies and Anarchists at the DNC were out in force. "Trying to suppress the guilt by association syndrome".

The RNC will be relatively free of such radical elements. The DI is lame by comparison and a whole lot safer.

405 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:46:14pm

re: #401 sattv4u2

McCain gave them hope again, regardless of their specific politics and backgrounds.

GGGAAHHH ,, can you use another word !

No! I'm reclaiming it for all humanity!

;)

406 Eowyn2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:46:37pm

re: #299 spaceman

My first chance to comment on the Palin pick. Initial thoughts:

What a moronic move. She's clearly picked only for the Demographic, but Hillary voters will not vote McCain anyway. She has zero experience, and undercuts the same attack on Obama. She doesn't bring the strength on economy that Romney would, doesn't help in a swing state, and has absolutely zero recognition factor.

I thought to find a lot of the same sentiment at LGF. Imagine my shock to find that this opinion is not much shared among the Lizards, and that in fact the choice seems to be winning exhuberent, fawning and enthusiastic praise.

I fully expect some major ding-downage. Go ahead, I apparently have it coming.

But ... Here's hoping that you are all right, and I'm severely in the ignorant wrong.

Spiffy:

McCain wasn't going for the female vote. He will gain a few but not a lot. He was solidifying the base with a fiscal conservative.
If you think that the governor of AK does not have international experience dealing with the Russian fisherfolk and even some of the dissidents from utopia, think again. Not only does she have to deal with them but with Canada as well. She also has had to deal with the military (and there's bunches in AK - and they seem to like her, or at least my daughter who was stationed up there did, and they respect her.)

You are proceeding under the assumption that Romney would have accepted a veep position. I dont think he would have.

Mooseburgers for all.

407 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:47:00pm

re: #394 vbspurs

Let's not overthink what it means to support Hillary. It was for history, as much as for Hillary herself.

McCain gave them hope again, regardless of their specific politics and backgrounds.

Yes, you make a valid point.

We shall see, as the proof will be in the electoral pudding. (Although I'm not sure through what mechanism it can be determined positively the number of Hillary supporters who cast for McCain/Palin in the end...)

408 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:47:03pm

As for the suitability of his choice, I think McCain is gambling that the conservatives and moderates he'll pick up with Palin outweigh the "PUMAs" he'll lose because she's apparently anti-abortion.

I'm happy to have an unabashedly pro-gun Alaskan up there (my father worked in AK in his youth and still misses the place) and from a purely aesthetic standpoint, DAMN, does she look good up there or what?

(Speaking practically, I also like seeing McPain acting humble around a strong, sharp, attractive woman. It's a good thing to see his frat-boy fighter-pilot vibe shut off like a switch, because that's one of the factors that could cost him the election if he's not careful.)

I hope she can hold up in debates, and that she's ready to go on the attack right away. Mrs. Palin, DO NOT BE A SHRINKING VIOLET - don't let them get the upper hand.

Fighter Pilot McCain has hopefully instructed her about the OODA Loop, so she knows that she needs to get up in the sun and onto their six before they know she's there. Be aggressive and smart faster than the other guy.

409 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:47:31pm

re: #399 vbspurs

Except he's not a Communist and she's not a Creationist...

Yeah, just because your parents were communists, and you were raised by communists, and later hung out with communists like Alinsky and Ayers, and later went to university and studied under communists, and wrote two books where you were sympathetic to communists, does not make you a communist, I suppose. Benefit of the doubt, given.

/tongue firmly in cheek.

410 goddessoftheclassroom  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:48:00pm

re: #397 big steve

I would not trust ANYONE under age 60 who says they have never even tried weed.

With my hand on my heart, I have NEVER tried tobacco or any illegal drug ( have drunk alcohol), and I am under 60.

411 kcladderman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:48:04pm

re: #399 vbspurs

Except he's not a Communist and she's not a Creationist...

You are half right

412 Halman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:48:06pm

re: #356 Bryantay

I went to a Hillary Forum via Hot Air earlier and it was amazing..Similar to ones that you shared...A lot of pissed off women out there right.

413 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:48:41pm

re: #408 Pawn of the Oppressor

Mrs. Palin, DO NOT BE A SHRINKING VIOLET

I think that's the last thing we need to worry about.

414 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:48:54pm

re: #376 Killgore Trout

She's a Hempster...
"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled,"

This bothers me not in the least. (The libertarian side of my political ideology peeking through.)

415 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:49:11pm

re: #397 big steve

I would not trust ANYONE under age 60 who says they have never even tried weed.

Do brownies count?

416 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:49:44pm

re: #406 Eowyn2

I agree with you, except McCain is clearly "going for" the women's vote. Didn't you notice that stuff in Palin's speech about Hillary and Geraldine? She didn't write that - his people did; and it's subtle like a sledgehammer, don't you think?

417 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:49:47pm

re: #409 rawmuse

/tongue firmly in cheek.

If you've ever been in an European University as I have, you know what a real Communist is.

I know Ward Churchill, Ayers, and others seem like the real deal, but they're not. They're still Americans. With an Italian Communist, French, German, British etc. etc. there is NO sense of moderation.

And please, I know what you are saying. Obama is a Leftist absolutely.

418 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:50:06pm

Ferraro on Palin

Got my answer...and wow...Geraldine likes the Palin choice and whacks a divot out of Obama and the Dem leadership.

419 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:50:20pm
420 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:50:24pm

Wow, it was kind of like old-times there for a minute. Everyone beating up on Salem. I suppose I kind of deserved it though. I didn't mean that anyone should be thrown to the sharks in a literal sense, but I could have phrased it differently.

421 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:50:44pm

Charles

I'm really glad you moderated your initial "ugh" in light of all of Palin's remarks, viz.,

"I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum.

To call her a "creationist" is to flatten all the distinctions between people who believe in a Creator, and that does no one, and the debate, any good. The opponent is dumb creationism and its totalitarian exertions, from whatever direction.

Palin is clearly not that.

Thank, er, God.

422 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:50:45pm

re: #409 rawmuse

Yeah, just because your parents were communists, and you were raised by communists, and later hung out with communists like Alinsky and Ayers, and later went to university and studied under communists, and wrote two books where you were sympathetic to communists, does not make you a communist, I suppose. Benefit of the doubt, given.

/tongue firmly in cheek.

Except for the book writing part, guess I'm an asshole !

423 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:50:58pm

Going to HillaryForums and Hill supporters are calling democrats what they really are- hypocrites. How can anyone seriously think McCain hasn't dealt a major blow to the democrats today? Hell- he's made some of them see the light! For all we know, they'll come to realize they've been with the wrong party all along and never go back.

424 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:51:14pm

re: #416 auldtrafford

Didn't you notice that stuff in Palin's speech about Hillary and Geraldine? She didn't write that - his people did; and it's subtle like a sledgehammer, don't you think?

I thought that was a great dig. Turn that knife, Sarah...

425 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:51:23pm

re: #419 buzzsawmonkey

What are you reading? Some puff piece?

BONG !

426 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:51:23pm

re: #410 goddessoftheclassroom

With my hand on my heart, I have NEVER tried tobacco or any illegal drug ( have drunk alcohol), and I am under 60.

Its never too late ;) Well good for you, I was much more sensitive to peer pressure.

427 WrathofG-d  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:51:24pm
428 Canadian Guy  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:51:31pm

Chris Matthews is about to get reaction from a PUMA

429 vagabond trader  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:51:41pm

re: #346 Canadian Guy

Yes,I have worked as a nurse. Aneurysm can recur and guarantee that he is closely monitored.Also, if a person is predisposed, it may occur in other arterial locations, such as the abdomen and legs.

430 kuffar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:51:54pm

She is the first VPOTUS or POTUS Nominee that could be in a playboy centerfold. That enough is for me.

431 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:51:59pm

re: #419 buzzsawmonkey

What are you reading? Some puff piece?

Just trying to weed out fact from fiction.

432 wolfie  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:52:04pm

re: #360 Dave the...

Correct. She said improved ferry service will do the job for much less money. Much much less.

NRO is reporting the Obama voted to spend the money on the bridge.

Well, well, well. Heh.
McCain camp, are you listening?

433 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:52:25pm

re: #431 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Someone should start nipping this pun thread in the bud.

434 Canadian Guy  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:52:28pm

re: #429 vagabond trader

Yes,I have worked as a nurse. Aneurysm can recur and guarantee that he is closely monitored.Also, if a person is predisposed, it may occur in other arterial locations, such as the abdomen and legs.

thanks.

435 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:52:30pm

re: #371 AW

I wonder why that is...

Is it that hard to say "she's wrong, but I'm voting for her anyways because I hate Obama"?

I don't think that's what Charles was saying at all. I'm pretty sure he was saying (actually said) that she reconsidered and qualified her response during the debate.

We will see, if and when she's asked about it during the campaign, what her feelings are today about teaching creationism in the schools. On other matters of deep personal and religious concern to her, she has opted to defer to the principles of her state constitution, so I expect that she will do the same on this issue.

I've seen a number of readers here (myself included) reconsider and qualify their views on this question when pointed toward new and better information. Gov. Palin may continue to do the same.

436 eschew_obfuscation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:52:34pm

re: #414 StinkHammer

This bothers me not in the least. (The libertarian side of my political ideology peeking through.)

Hey...it was legal in Alaska when she did that...you don't even need your libertarian side for this one!

437 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:52:54pm
438 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:52:57pm

re: #420 Salem

Wow, it was kind of like old-times there for a minute. Everyone beating up on Salem.

Nah, yer just expressing some frustration -- no worries.

/Tosses some bandages

439 theblakester  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:52:59pm

#410 goddessoftheclassroom 8/29/08 2:48:00 pm reply quote 0

re: #397 big steve

I would not trust ANYONE under age 60 who says they have never even tried weed.

With my hand on my heart, I have NEVER tried tobacco or any illegal drug ( have drunk alcohol), and I am under 60.

Today, weed is just modern day prohibition, why even the Kennedy's were bootleggers in the days of prohibition, and would be again if alcohol ever became illegal again.

440 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:53:06pm

re: #423 Sharmuta

Going to HillaryForums and Hill supporters are calling democrats what they really are- hypocrites. How can anyone seriously think McCain hasn't dealt a major blow to the democrats today? Hell- he's made some of them see the light! For all we know, they'll come to realize they've been with the wrong party all along and never go back.

The Republican Party, the natural party of conservatives, is used to receiving people as they age, or get a sudden lightning strike of reality (9/11). I, for one, will welcome these people even though I've been a lifelong conservative with no sudden coup de foudres.

441 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:53:09pm

re: #430 kuffar

She is the first VPOTUS or POTUS Nominee that could be in a playboy centerfold. That enough is for me.

you mean Cheney doesn't do it for you?

442 shiplord kirel  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:53:35pm

The left will be hitting this very hard, but Charles has it exactly right.

Debate is one thing, the curriculum is another.

I do not, and will not, teach creationism in my freshman geology classes but there is no prohibition on raising the subject. Indeed, it gives me the focused chance to lay out the case for the antiquity of the Earth. Among other things it gives me an opportunity to refute some of the myths and strawmen to which many students have been exposed.

443 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:53:55pm

re: #417 vbspurs

Sorry, I got no symp for commies. Maybe it is because my Dad died fighting those Godless goat f*ckers. That could color my opinion somewhat, I admit.
Other, than that, I am sure they are really reeeasonable people.
/Time to clean my weapons.

444 Canadian Guy  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:53:57pm

The PUMA said "John McCain has shown Howard Dean and Barak Obama to be amateurs."

445 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:54:31pm

I don't need to smoke weed. I smoke blog.

446 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:54:32pm

re: #422 sattv4u2

Except for the book writing part, guess I'm an asshole !

Are you running for President?

447 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:54:36pm

re: #430 kuffar

She is the first VPOTUS or POTUS Nominee that could be in a playboy centerfold. That enough is for me.

Palin 2012 -- Vote with your pants!

;^)

448 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:54:56pm

re: #441 big steve

you mean Cheney doesn't do it for you?

lemme think ,,, Cheney ,, Speedo ,,,///,,, Palin ,,, Bikini ,,, hmmm

449 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:55:00pm

re: #418 big steve

The more I think about that issue, the more I can convince myself of what Limbaugh was aiming for in that operation chaos he was touting.

It would not be too far of a stretch to think, if Obama loses, this fractures the democrats for some time to come.

I'm beginning to think there are some major divisions fracturing within the Democrat's party.

4 years will not be enough to heal, even if hillary gets the nod in 2012.

450 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:55:13pm

re: #410 goddessoftheclassroom

With my hand on my heart, I have NEVER tried tobacco or any illegal drug ( have drunk alcohol), and I am under 60.

I believe you goddess, my wife is 47 and has never touched any drugs...me, well...

She made me promise to never discuss my youth, certain parts, with my children.

451 Cognito  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:55:40pm

Only a matter of time until someone coins "VPILF."

Or did I, just then?

452 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:55:48pm

re: #424 StinkHammer

I thought that was a great dig. Turn that knife, Sarah...

I certainly agree with the sentiment; I just thought it came across as a little heavy-handed.

453 Cognito  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:56:05pm

/feeling regretful, already

454 vagabond trader  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:56:18pm

re: #451 Cognito

Already copyrighted.

455 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:56:21pm

re: #446 rawmuse

Are you running for President?

If asked, I will not accept, If chosen ,, I will not run ,, If elected , I will not serve

(ummm,, but I would like at least a ride in Air Force One and a couple of nights in the Lincoln Bedroom)

456 Cognito  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:56:45pm

/relieved to see it had been long-ago coined.

457 sparrowlake  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:56:48pm

re: #307 Dianna

Assume the kids were half asleep and not paying attention. It never hurts to go back to the basics.

If today's science classes are anything like when I was in public school you are correct on both counts.

458 WrathofG-d  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:56:52pm

re: #450 jorline

"I inhaled...that was the point!"
-Barack Hussain Obama
-WrathofG-d

459 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:56:56pm

re: #437 Killgore Trout

Barbaric.

Just barbaric.

460 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:57:01pm

re: #440 vbspurs

The Republican Party, the natural party of conservatives, is used to receiving people as they age, or get a sudden lightning strike of reality (9/11). I, for one, will welcome these people even though I've been a lifelong conservative with no sudden coup de foudres.

Indeed. I'm sure I'm not alone when I thought it might take another 9/11 style attack to wake more people up to the hypocrisy of the democrats. I'm very thankful to be wrong- it looks like all it took was a woman being trusted to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency and which party had the balls to put her there.

461 CIA Reject  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:57:05pm

re: #363 Pawn of the Oppressor

I missed the entire batch of morning threads because of the outage, but

Worse... Leftists.

For them, there are no rules, only tools***. Mysoginy, hatred, belittlement of her accomplishments, tearing her down as window dressing, implying she's an unfit mother, a whore, a cheat, a house harlot, "gender traitor", stooge, fool, hick, religious psychopath, an Ellie May Clampett, buck-toothed gun-toting redneck girl, pick an angle, you'll find it over at DU and Kos already, and there will be articles written by establishment "feminists" talking about what an idiot she is on Monday morning.

(*** This principle works great in art, but not politics)

ROTFLMAO!

462 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:57:09pm

re: #443 rawmuse

Sorry, I got no symp for commies. Maybe it is because my Dad died fighting those Godless goat f*ckers.

God bless your dad for his service! Sincerely.

My mother's German family were imprisoned, killed, exiled, and had their entire property taken away by Commies. If there is one salient feature about me, it is hatred of Communism.

This is why it is important to differentiate between a real one from one who was influenced by them.

463 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:57:36pm

re: #425 sattv4u2

BONG !

Power hit!

464 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:57:41pm

re: #445 vbspurs

I don't need to smoke weed. I smoke blog.

That should so rotate.

465 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:57:50pm
466 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:57:51pm

re: #451 Cognito

Only a matter of time until someone coins "VPILF."

Or did I, just then?

Got it right here.

467 yochanan  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:57:58pm

I ♥ PALIN the whole evolution creation debate not so much.

468 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:58:14pm

re: #433 godfrey

Someone should start nipping this pun thread in the bud.

Yeah, they can get to be a drag,

469 RubyTuesday  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:58:37pm

It's too bad that this site is giving so much time and energy to a subject that man cannot prove or answer. Argument over faith can go on forever. It would be sad if conservatives made a bigger deal over this than the media and the libs. In other words, are we starting our own rift? How unwise is that? So much good in a McCain/Palin ticket. Can't we just leave this and move on? Celebrate?

470 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:58:48pm

re: #449 formercorpsman

The more I think about that issue, the more I can convince myself of what Limbaugh was aiming for in that operation chaos he was touting.

It would not be too far of a stretch to think, if Obama loses, this fractures the democrats for some time to come.

I'm beginning to think there are some major divisions fracturing within the Democrat's party.

4 years will not be enough to heal, even if hillary gets the nod in 2012.

You know you make a real good point here that I hadn't thought about. If the Dems cannot win this time with a poster boy liberal candidate and an incumbent Repulican president with lots of baggage, they really might have to tear up the party...good thought, gives me something to chew over.

471 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:59:08pm

re: #464 Fat Jolly Penguin

That should so rotate.

H/t to Althouse! It was not mine. :)

472 LeePro  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:59:17pm

re: #263 really grumpy big dog Johnson

That's downright beautiful, Bookworm.

Excellent assessment, grumpy! I agree! ! !

+ DING!

473 formercorpsman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:59:34pm

re: #432 wolfie

Oh boy, that is gonna leave a mark.

NRO is also hitting him hard about the Aires deal as well.

474 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 2:59:55pm

re: #433 godfrey

Someone should start nipping this pun thread in the bud.

I con-seed.

475 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:00:17pm

McCain/Hot Hockey Mom '08!

476 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:00:29pm

re: #462 vbspurs

God bless your dad for his service! Sincerely.

My mother's German family were imprisoned, killed, exiled, and had their entire property taken away by Commies. If there is one salient feature about me, it is hatred of Communism.

This is why it is important to differentiate between a real one from one who was influenced by them.

Thank you, and may god bless you and yours.
But, just for the record, Barack does have the full endorsement of the American Communist Party.

477 vagabond trader  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:01:07pm

re: #465 godfrey

He's quite the hottie, tho I may be too old to profer an accurate opinion.

478 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:01:12pm

Brit Hume on Fox. I can't wait to see what Krauthammer says, as he was more than a little pooh-poohing a need for "the long ball" (a radical choice).

479 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:01:21pm

BWAAAHAHAHAAA!

The Messiah™ has retracted his initial criticism of Palin -- already!

480 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:01:31pm

McCain/Intelligent, Feisty Woman 08!

481 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:01:32pm

...trophy wife...now a trophy VP...nice John...very nice.

482 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:01:40pm

re: #451 Cognito

Only a matter of time until someone coins "VPILF."

Or did I, just then?

Already a website.

483 Opinionated  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:01:41pm

I mentioned this on another thread.

It is now an "issue"

Sarah Palin, Buchananite

AP 1999

"Pat Buchanan brought his conservative message of a smaller government and an America First foreign policy to Fairbanks and Wasilla on Friday as he continued a campaign swing through Alaska. Buchanan's strong message championing states rights resonated with the roughly 85 people gathered for an Interior Republican luncheon in Fairbanks. … Among those sporting Buchanan buttons were Wasilla Mayor Sarah Palin and state Sen. Jerry Ward, R-Anchorage."

[Link: www.thenation.com...]

484 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:01:50pm

re: #476 rawmuse

Thank you, and may god bless you and yours.
But, just for the record, Barack does have the full endorsement of the American Communist Party.

Horrible, Rawmuse. Thanks for the link!

485 semper gumbi  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:02:02pm

re: #242 StinkHammer

Of course, which is why I'm standing by my assessment that not too many Hillary supporters will now throw their votes to McCain simply because of Palin, the woman V.P. -- those "feminists" are LEFTISTS FIRST, who don't consider conservative/Republican female political figures to be representative of "true" feminist ideals. They want a liberal female POTUS, not simply a female POTUS.

The hard core democrat Hillary voters may not, but a goodly portion of Independent Women also supported Hillary. These are the one's that are more likely to gravitate to the Republican ticket with Governor Palin on it.

486 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:02:14pm

The Palin choice is really smart. This is going to hurt Democrats big-time.

Check out an ad when she was running for Governor. Great ad. She's a go-getter, and she gets stuff done.

She will be great against Biden, who will look like a wheezing patient next to her.

487 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:02:18pm

re: #458 WrathofG-d

"I inhaled...that was the point!"
-Barack Hussain Obama
-WrathofG-d

He's still inhaling, but now it's exhaust pipes...diesel.

488 Gearhead  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:02:24pm

re: #464 Fat Jolly Penguin

That should so rotate.

I'll second that. Call for a vote?

489 Irene NYC  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:02:31pm

I think Sarah is such a breath air and that she will give this country a new roadmap to follow. She's straight forward, down to earth, and as American as apple pie.

And I for one am tired of the cynical, anti-American, bs-spinning crap we hear from all our elites. It gets you no where and leaves me depressed.

490 David IV of Georgia  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:02:36pm

re: #458 WrathofG-d

"I inhaled...that was the point!"
-Barack Hussain Obama
-WrathofG-d

Why bother if you are not going to sss*coff*sss—sss—sss—ss*coff*ss- ss—ss—s*coff* Pwuhhh—*cough* inhale?

It's been 22 years since I inhaled.

(My monitor just had it's first "dying monitor" moment.)

491 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:02:52pm

re: #106 Junior

The fact that this would be an issue for some of you is proof that the entire debate of evolution against whatever else you want to call it is a religious one as much for the former as it is for the latter. Evolution has become a religion with just as many zealots.

Wrong. It's a matter of keeping science in public high school science class and religion out of it.

492 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:03:03pm

re: #429 vagabond trader

Same here...and if it is genetic, the risk is even higher. And the aneurysms can occur elsewhere in the body.

493 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:03:21pm

re: #396 NY Nana

We can agree to disagree. I don't think he even put the pay check into his reason to go.

He knew what the subject was, and chose to go. This makes me somewhat uneasy, especially in vue of Palin's agenda.

The Discovery Institute is reprehensible. That alone should, I feel, have been enough for him to politely decline.

Nana, I don't understand. The subject was, as far as I can tell, the role of the U.S. in the global community, and specifically "Asian Economic Development Security" and the main sponsors were the World Affairs Council and the CityClub of Seattle. How the DI wormed its way into it is a mystery to me.

I guess I'll have to look into this further.

494 nikis-knight  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:03:32pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Not when what you are conserving is the most enlightened system of government ever devised by man, one constantly under attack by so called progressives, who really want to take use back to strong men making decisions for the plebs.

495 StinkHammer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:03:44pm

re: #483 Opinionated

Buchanan's strong message championing states rights resonated with the roughly 85 people gathered for an Interior Republican luncheon in Fairbanks...

States' rights -- how awful!

/

496 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:03:50pm

Going to watch Fox News' analysis. Guys, it's been a pleasure. Catch you later!

497 Daddyg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:04:22pm

re: #13 Shug

How many of the other potential candidates have a similar position?

Just curious, does Mormonism teach creationism?

Romni
Huckabee
etc

We teach that God created the Heavens and Earth - we tend not to have debates over the specific time frames and methods.

In the mid 1900's several of our General Authorities got into rather vocal debates on the matter and were finally told to knock it off by the first presidency on the grounds that it isn't central to the question of our salvation through the atonement of Christ (which is what we should be teaching and preaching).

There is a great deal of diversity of thought on the subject within the Church. Not so much whether creation was accomplished at the hand of God, but on the details of how that was done.

I've heard everything from hard line literal 7 days created old to the watchmaker theory (God set up the rules and let the mechanism run) etc. It isn't always clear which parts of the scripture are literal and which ones are symbolic (and there's tons of symbolism - my fundie friends won't like that last statement).

That's probably why the whole creation vs. evolution debate never caught on fire with me. And I'm a died in the wool Mormon who attends the Temple and everything...

498 Honcho  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:04:53pm

Didn't anybody notice the "Country First" placards?

Usually it's "God First, Country Second"
Hasn't any one watched the "Carbon Canyon" episode of Star Trek, nor read Epictetus?

Placing one's duty, above one's private beliefs, is a Greco-Roman virtue

And one that has been embraced by Maverick, and his chosen wingman.

I stand with you, John. A poor blighter in the trenches.

PS She's hot! and can handle a CAR-15!

499 Scorch  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:04:57pm

re: #164 Salem

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

Your losing it.

500 Piglet-U93  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:05:05pm

re: #451 Cognito

Only a matter of time until someone coins "VPILF."

Or did I, just then?

[Link: www.vpilf.com...]

501 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:05:42pm

re: #465 godfrey

Palin's husband looks proud. Good on him!

He looked totally blown away. One day your the husband of the Governor of Alaska...minding your business and the next day your wife is selected to be the future VP of the United States.

Time to pack the bags a stump in the lower 48.

502 spaceman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:05:53pm

re: #406 Eowyn2

Spiffy:
McCain wasn't going for the female vote. He will gain a few but not a lot. He was solidifying the base with a fiscal conservative.


My gut instinct reaction grew out of my perception that he made the choice first and foremost on gender. I still think that this is probably true. She was definitely a dark horse selection, and I don't think a male with her background would have been considered even at round one. It seemed like a cynical maneuver which was unlikely to pay out. I detest pure "Equal Opportunity" style politics/hiring, and this stunk of it at first sniff to me. Also, it didn't seem like "who's that" is really the primary reaction which a pick should elicit from the public.

The praise from those here who are more familiar with her, and from Limbaugh on the radio are impressive, and I'm more than eager to reconsider. As I've said, I much hope that I've been wrong. I'm sure there will be no shortage of coverage tonight, or chance to get to know her. It certainly did accomplish the goal of stealing the news cycle.


You are proceeding under the assumption that Romney would have accepted a veep position. I dont think he would have.


Interesting. Yes, I was. I don't see why he would decline?

Mooseburgers for all.


Cheers! ;)

503 nikis-knight  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:05:57pm

re: #499 Scorch

Your losing it.

Well, they would be if they tried that, that's for sure.

504 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:06:16pm

re: #437 Killgore Trout

Killgore,

I have run out of the ablility to count how many babies and todders are murdered by a parent.

It is barbaric, and there seems to be no end in sight.

505 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:06:32pm

re: #400 DeafDog

Yes, she did step out of nowhere. She is a surprise pick. Are you kidding? She may have done onesy-twosy appearances before, but now she has George Steppenappolaus gunning for her...you know he wants to land a gaffe. It's a completely different ballgame.

It's an exciting. I'm excited. But don't fool yourself thinking that she can walk on water.

She wasn't a surprise to me, or to a lot of other readers here. I thought Romney, Lieberman and Ridge had a better chance, but a bunch of us have been talking (both here and elsewhere) about her chances for months now.

And I've never implied she can walk on water. I have some reservations about her, myself. But that would have been true of any one of the potential picks.

506 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:07:04pm

re: #475 Fenway_Nation

McCain/Hot Hockey Mom '08!

ROFL.

507 wolfie  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:07:06pm

re: #465 godfrey

Palin's husband looks proud. Good on him!

Whoa.
I think I'm having a hot flash... or something.

508 BrianA  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:07:22pm

re: #139 Charles

The vice president's impact on abortion policy, by the way, is nonexistent. Except maybe as a public advocate, in the PR sense.

I disagree. One of Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals" is to make the enemy live up to their rhetoric, which he says they can not do. I think Palin breaks that rule.

509 vagabond trader  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:07:31pm

re: #492 NY Nana

Nana, I bet you are one of those three year diploma nurses. They were/are the best.

510 uptight  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:08:11pm

Jeez - ok, let's settle these origination arguments once and for all.

"In the beginning the Universe was created.
This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded
as a bad move.

Many races believe that it was created by some sort of God,
though the Jatravartid people of Viltvodle VI believe that the
entire Universe was in fact sneezed out of the nose of a being
called the Great Green Arkleseizure.

The Jatravartids, who live in perpetual fear of the time they
call The Coming of The Great White Handkerchief, are small blue
creatures with more than fifty arms each, who are therefore
unique in being the only race in history to have invented the
aerosol deodorant before the wheel.

However, the Great Green Arkleseizure Theory is not widely
accepted outside Viltvodle VI and so, the Universe being the
puzzling place it is, other explanations are constantly being
sought."

anything else?

511 Tigger2005  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:08:12pm

re: #24 Killgore Trout

As long as she isn't going to push it in public schools she can believe whatever she wants. It's still an embarrassment...

Yeesh.

Sigh...so much educating to do. That statement simply highlights the general ignorance about science and the scientific method in this country.

Yeah, evolution is "only a theory..." only a SCIENTIFIC THEORY, that is, which is quite different from the standard definition of "theory" as informal speculation or a guess. The Theory of Gravity is "only" a theory too, but strangely creationists don't insist on teaching alternative theories to gravity.

512 George guy  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:08:23pm

re: #187 Bookworm

Though I'm a creationist, that is more or less my position as well. As far as science goes, I don't think one's beliefs are a justifiable excuse for willful ignorance regarding what is actually being taught. You can't just write on a test "I don't believe this" and expect to get a passing grade.
Although simply addressing evolution in the terms evolutionists might prefer it to be taught is not necessarily going to promote scientific literacy in our schools-- if the teachers think if they teach the kids to parrot back the supposed ages of life, the universe, and everything, and they all give the appropriate figures in billions of years, that does not suddenly mean science education is all hunky-dory. Beneath those superficial details are the scientific method and the basic sciences, and I definitely think public school standards in teaching those - math, chemistry, physics, and so forth, are abysmal. Everyone should be able to agree to that extent, in that scientific literacy will certainly improve by concentrating on the scientific method and basic sciences. Where that will lead the students to form their opinions may be controversial, but until that point what I am suggesting is against nobody's interests.

513 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:08:32pm

re: #507 wolfie

Whoa.
I think I'm having a hot flash... or something.

LOL...control yourself wolfie.

514 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:08:45pm

re: #493 Lynn B.

How the DI wormed its way into it is a mystery to me.

I guess I'll have to look into this further.

They could have been refused. If you find any more info, please post it.

Good idea on your part, BTW.

515 Chip Designer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:09:03pm

Her title is Governor Palin.
Not Mrs. Palin, or just Palin.

Using any title other than Governor is an attack on her qualifications.
Senator McCain.
Senator Obama.
Senator Bidin.
Governor Palin.

516 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:09:26pm
517 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:09:29pm

re: #507 wolfie

Whoa.
I think I'm having a hot flash... or something.

Ya sure it's not the three bean buritto you hadd for breakfast?

518 shiplord kirel  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:09:32pm

McCain has shown the kind of wisdom we would expect from a 72 year old survivor.
I think he realized that the Dems have completely failed to understand women voters or real feminists. They have taken women for granted and that is the real source of the anger we see among Hillary supporters. The selection of Palin is a death blow to Democrat pretensions.

519 Moe Katz  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:09:44pm

re: #323 auldtrafford

"Interestingly, we were taught the "flat earth" theory in High School - in history class. And we examined why people thought that, and why they changed the theory, etc. etc. Good analogy, maybe?

Come to think of it, they never actually said the "flat earth" theory was wrong, either. Kinda left it to us to decide.

"

Note, however, that you learned the flat earth theory in history class and not in geography class. Similarly, a history class, and not a biology class, would be an appropriate context in which to teach creationism.

520 Daddyg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:10:05pm

re: #61 Cattt

I'm no expert, but my impression of the Mormon view is that it ties in somewhat with the laws of Termodynamics - matter can be neither created nor destroyed but is acted upon and changed in form. Spirit is eternal, as is matter. Spirit is in fact material. God organizied existing matter - He did not create matter out of nothing..

Correct me if I messed up, any LDSers in the audience.

I used to lie awake at night as a child, trying to understand how you could create something from nothing. I am guessing that Joseph Smith did also.

Well put - I would say you have us pegged pretty well on that point. P.S. Joseph Smith wondered about a lot of things people were saying about the Bible and that's what led him to his somewhat unique path.

521 Killgore Trout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:10:09pm

re: #504 NY Nana

Very sad story, kinda bummed me out.

522 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:10:55pm

re: #501 jorline

Who wouldn't be stoked to be married to someone like Sarah Palin?

Time for her to step up another notch.

We're all rooting for her.

523 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:10:56pm

re: #140 Piglet-U93

So, has science advanced enough to be able to create life from lifelessness? Has science even observed life being created from lifelessness?

I do not know of any, references anyone?

Sure, I believe life evolves but what made it start? A pure accident?
If the human race lives long enough (without a serious setback) it might even prove (part of) evolution - be able to define how life acquires or losses attributes over time.

Nevertheless, the initiation of life is beyond science at this point in time and may still be unanswered for eons.

it is sufficient for Creationists to have faith and say God set/up the permanent rules of the universe and set it all into motion from nothingness and let it "unravel" or "grow" (evolution).

It is sufficient for Evolutionists to investigate and document life's adapation and changes through time and present the evidence of those observations but to say how life began is presumptuous.

Evolutionary theory doesn't address how life began; that's the baliwick of origins of life theory. Evolutionary theory addresses how the confrontation with challenges in a surrounding environment causes already-present life to have to either change or die.

524 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:11:07pm

I meant to post this this morning, but the LGF outage started right when I got online, and since this afternoon it's been all Palin, but I wanted to dump my thoughts on Obie's Big Speech. I'll blockquote it:

Last night I felt impressed by the speech, but now that I've slept on it, I find myself a little bit angry about it. They used every rhetorical and media trick in the book. It was a propaganda showpiece from start to finish: The rock star setting, the swirling dramatic lighting, shots of weeping, devoted faces in the crowd, concert film camera work, the temple-ish stage (admittedly meant to evoke the Lincoln Memorial - they did a good job, let's be fair), the soaring rhetoric, the chanting... It wasn't a speech, it wasn't about information, it was about ascension, religion, and Revolution. If you eliminate the impossible reforms as the simple lies and tricks that they are, there was no substance. In fact, he explicitly encouraged people not to ask for substance. It was a plain old call for revolution with modern media tricks. Pure Romanticism at its Third Reich best: "Don't question, just Believe. Together you will re-make the world in my image."

Leni Riefenstahl would have been proud.

Smiley O'Messiahbama says "bring it on"? I say "get bent." I DO NOT BELIEVE.

At least we got a look at Ashley Biden. She is HOT.

525 AmericanMe  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:11:23pm

#60 Iron Fist

Given the traffic I saw over at John McCain's Web Site, I think fund-raising is going to back that up.

Today was the first time I've ever donated to a campaign and happy to do it!

526 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:11:46pm

re: #504 NY Nana

re: #521 Killgore Trout

That story alone makes the case FOR capital punishment

527 ciaospirit  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:11:47pm

re: #507 wolfie

Whoa.
I think I'm having a hot flash... or something.

What a great pic! How cool is it that he's holding the Bible under her hand as she gets sworn in.

What a difference a supportive husband can make in a woman's life.

528 DeafDog  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:11:55pm

re: #505 Lynn B.

Yup.

Mac is swinging for the fence.

529 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:11:58pm

Good article on Todd Palin

I already saw a KOS post noting Todd Palin worked for BP so this is another Oil Company inside job. Let me tell you, he was an operator for BP. These are the guys that actally operate the equipment. They are union hourly paid jobs and they are difficult, dangerous, and definitely not management. Sounds like a really cool guy, someone you could have a beer with. Unlike some fancy lawyers we know!

530 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:12:01pm

re: #518 shiplord kirel

I wish I could give you a five-level upding for that. Spot on.

531 LemonJoose  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:12:02pm

re: #431 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Just trying to weed out fact from fiction.

I think it's no longer the potential snake in the grass it would have been 20 years ago.

532 Maui Girl  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:12:31pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Although totally entitled to it your opinion is just hogwash. You make it sound as if most Republicans are a bunch of backwoods rednecks or Muslims. Take your pick.

533 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:12:39pm

re: #484 vbspurs

In the USA we have what are known as crypto-commies. They are communist in all their dispositions but they know that they can never get elected as such so they call themselves Socialist/Democrats.
Since about 1968, they have gotten elected as Democrats.

But, don't take my word for it, by all means, read what they themselves write about themselves in their various biographies.

534 Daddyg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:13:02pm

re: #96 Naso Tang

From what I have read of Joseph Smith, what he though mostly about was when he was next going to get laid, and how he was going to make the case that those golden plates would never actually be seen by anyone.

Ding down - but thank you for your bigoted remarks, I just can't hear enough mormon bashing.

535 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:13:04pm

re: #529 big steve

Good article on Todd Palin

I already saw a KOS post noting Todd Palin worked for BP so this is another Oil Company inside job. Let me tell you, he was an operator for BP. These are the guys that actally operate the equipment. They are union hourly paid jobs and they are difficult, dangerous, and definitely not management. Sounds like a really cool guy, someone you could have a beer with. Unlike some fancy lawyers we know!

I hope she points that out.

536 ContraJihadi  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:13:10pm

The only interest I can see regarding her remarks on ID is how she would respond if/when an opponent or media person (redundancy, I know) should challenge her with them: a kind of test of her battle-worthiness. I am betting she will respond just fine, perhaps show up the questioner as petty.

537 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:13:33pm

re: #530 godfrey

I wish I could give you a five-level upding for that. Spot on.

donated an upding for you

538 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:15:58pm

re: #515 Chip Designer

Her title is Governor Palin.
Not Mrs. Palin, or just Palin.

Using any title other than Governor is an attack on her qualifications.
Senator McCain.
Senator Obama.
Senator Bidin.
Governor Palin.

Thank you for he lesson on political protocol (are you a protocol droid by any chance?)

Should I meet any of them I'll remember to use the honorific.

When using keyboard for discussions shortcuts are just fine thank you very much. BHO, JSM etc...

539 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:16:15pm

re: #504 NY Nana

Killgore,

I have run out of the ablility to count how many babies and todders are murdered by a parent.

It is barbaric, and there seems to be no end in sight.

Nana, my soul weeps about it every day, and I feel my own sin every day. I want the slaughter to stop, but feel fairly powerless to do so. I'm not political fodder, and you have to carry a big stick.

540 uptight  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:16:54pm

wow - what a cute 80's babe:

[Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

was she topless?

541 big steve  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:17:22pm

"We had a bad fishing year that year, so we didn't have any money," Todd Palin said. "So we decided to spend 35 bucks and go down to the courthouse." - regarding decision to elope with Sarah...you got to love it. So much for the Joe Biden - blue collar credentials.

542 theheat  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:18:08pm

re: #267 Salem

I'm all for smoking after sex, actually ;-) Pelosi, on the other hand, is not. They want our guns and our cigarettes. Not necessarily in that order.

543 LeePro  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:18:18pm

re: #323 auldtrafford

Interestingly, we were taught the "flat earth" theory in High School - in history class. And we examined why people thought that, and why they changed the theory, etc. etc. Good analogy, maybe?

Come to think of it, they never actually said the "flat earth" theory was wrong, either. Kinda left it to us to decide.

EXCELLENT point! ! !

544 vagabond trader  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:19:16pm

re: #524 Pawn of the Oppressor

Surely you are aware that the Obama has always been above answering questions of any substance.I thought the speech was a boring rehash of all the standard Dem greatest hits, culminating in the old refrain of free stuff for me none for thee.

545 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:20:40pm

re: #544 vagabond trader

Surely you are aware that the Obama has always been above answering questions of any substance.I thought the speech was a boring rehash of all the standard Dem greatest hits, culminating in the old refrain of free stuff for me none for thee.

BHO is handing out free stuff? Missed that part, I was hanging on to my wallet too hard to hear the free stuff part.

546 Basho  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:21:21pm

re: #106 Junior

The fact that this would be an issue for some of you is proof that the entire debate of evolution against whatever else you want to call it is a religious one as much for the former as it is for the latter. Evolution has become a religion with just as many zealots.

Maybe you should find out what the debate is about before getting involved.

547 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:21:35pm

re: #540 uptight

wow - what a cute 80's babe:

[Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

was she topless?

Wouldn't surprise me if it was a swimsuit or low-cut gown with the lens close enough to give the impression of toplessness...

/old boudoir photograhy trick

548 DesertSage  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:21:49pm

re: #543 LeePro

We did it Lee!

You and Killian and I were pushing really hard for Palin on the late night threads. I think the McCain staff were reading them! It worked.

We did it! :')

549 Sifty  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:22:22pm

Good, bad, or indifferent, my wife was sitting out this election until this morning. Now she is fired up to vote. She even called the Mominlaw to get her on the bandwagon too.

If Palin can get Mrs. Sifty off the bench she can get just about anyone.

550 vbspurs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:22:24pm

Did last night remind you of the Nuremberg Rally? Wonder why?

From Der Spiegel. Think they know how to spot one. ;)

551 uptight  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:23:00pm

re: #547 Fenway_Nation

Wouldn't surprise me if it was a swimsuit or low-cut gown with the lens close enough to give the impression of toplessness...

/old boudoir photograhy trick

"implied topless"

552 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:24:18pm

re: #509 vagabond trader

Guilty. Three years, but we had so much hands on experience, in addition to the myriad of classes.

The reality was that with a 4-week vacation, and days off for holidays, not weeks, we were probably equal in class time, but way over in patient care.

I took surgery as my elective, and assisted in the O.R., where they used a heart-lung machine nearly the size of a room, for surgery on kids with Down's Disease, and the all too common atrial septal defect or ventricular septal defect...we were assigned to the child on the pediatric unit, and were also in the OR assisting in the surgery. I am short, and has to stand on 2 stools...seeing the actual heart was astounding all those years ago!

Sadly, in those days we lost so many kids, who we grew attached to pre-op, but seeing what they do now? Astounding.

I hope Gov. Palin's baby will not have a heart defect.

Today, it seems that on-hands nursing is no longer done very much by RN's.

553 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:24:38pm

Obama’s Convention Bounce

After leading by just one or two points for most of August, the Democratic hopeful opened a three-point advantage over McCain last Friday—the day before he announced Joe Biden would be his running mate.

There's your big convention bounce, folks. A three point advantage. After today and after next week- obama can kiss this bounce good-bye.

554 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:24:44pm

re: #550 vbspurs

Did last night remind you of the Nuremberg Rally? Wonder why?

From Der Spiegel. Think they know how to spot one. ;)

I missed last nights speech. But I knew something wonderous had happened. This moring, I went to fill up with gas and it was $.33 a gallon. Then, on my way in to work I noticed the skies were perfectly blue over Atlanta, not smog or pollution at all. At a stop light the guys in the car next to me offered to rotate and balance my tires for free while we were waiting for the light to turn green

555 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:25:14pm

re: #515 Chip Designer

Her title is Governor Palin.
Not Mrs. Palin, or just Palin.

Using any title other than Governor is an attack on her qualifications.
Senator McCain.
Senator Obama.
Senator Bidin.
Governor Palin.

Excellent. I thought I was about the only one that felt that way and just blamed it on my Army background.

556 Piglet-U93  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:25:28pm

re: #523 Salamantis

The "soup to cell" theory is then not part of the set of evolution principles?

There are radicals even in the Darwinian camp -> [Link: news.bio-medicine.org...]

557 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:25:36pm

re: #542 theheat

I'm all for smoking after sex, actually ;-) Pelosi, on the other hand, is not. They want our guns and our cigarettes. Not necessarily in that order.

Yeah, and the Republicans are after our...um... Well, they're probably after something that I don't want to part with. Right now, I just can't think of anything the Republicans want to take away from us that the Dems don't want to take away from us even more urgently.

558 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:26:36pm

re: #551 uptight

Yep...managed to coax some nice-looking but unbelievably goody-two shoes classmates to pose in a similar manner for my photography class back in the day.

559 Chip Designer  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:26:36pm

re: #538 jcm
I do protocol in my work. The droid title fits.

Shortcuts are OK on the web. But just notice the MSM reports. No "Governor" = Democrat Bias

560 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:26:48pm

re: #514 NY Nana

They could have been refused. If you find any more info, please post it.

This is the DI's own account. Kind of self-deprecating, actually, but to be taken with a large grain of salt.

The press contact for [Campaign to Defend the Constitution] Defcon's broadside against Sen. McCain this week is Timi Gerson, who is a Fenton veteran of Moveon.org. So you begin to get the picture. It is fair to say that we would not be Fenton’s favorite think tank on almost any topic.

The silliness began with a contradictory attempt to a) suggest that we had finagled a speech by an unsuspecting Sen. McCain to talk about intelligent design; and b) that we really were not involved in the luncheon event, after all, or had misrepresented our role. In fact, the major sponsors were Seattle's World Affairs Council and City Club. They asked us to join them as a "co-presenter", as we often do, and we agreed. This is SOP for non-profit groups in this area who want to build a crowd for a nationally prominent speaker. We do the same when we are the main sponsor of an event. (A World Affairs Council leader called after the event to express dismay that one of his staffers had made an "inappropriate" comment to a reporter that Discovery had merely "hopped on" the event.)

As for why we would be participating in a speech on foreign policy by Sen. McCain, it apparently is unknown to many observers that Discovery holds a number of foreign policy events; most recently ones on Somalia, the dissident groups in Iran and on current difficulties in U.S.-Russian relations. Our involvement in foreign policy issues is even older than our interest in science and culture.

Anyhow, for better or worse, intelligent design didn't even come up at the McCain event today, though a reporter may have asked about it afterwards.

Still looking. But will need to take a break soon.

561 BBEV  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:26:49pm

I'm OK with McCain's pik for VP. I have alway been a fan of Margaret Thatcher and never had a problem with a woman being President I just wanted a Conservative one.

562 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:26:50pm

re: #553 Sharmuta

Obama’s Convention Bounce

There's your big convention bounce, folks. A three point advantage. After today and after next week- obama can kiss this bounce good-bye.

Three points. Unbelievable. I couldn't stomach any part of the convention, but I was expecting at least six or seven.

563 metal man  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:27:16pm

When the ID threads first started here I responded knee jerk as if it was an attack on my belief in God. Made a couple of poor arguments about semantics but also read the links to the ID sites. In the end I figured out it was not an attack but a warning to pay attention to a sneaky threat. ID adds nothing to a science class but only muddles a subject that's already hard enough to grasp. I'm hoping that Sarah Palin had a similar experience from the reaction to her first off the cuff response to a question and the ensuing response.

564 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:28:23pm

re: #562 Fat Jolly Penguin

Three points. Unbelievable. I couldn't stomach any part of the convention, but I was expecting at least six or seven.

the "bump" or lack there of won't show up until tomorrow or Sunday (note that this poll was taken "the day before he announced Joe Biden would be his running mate.")

565 Daddyg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:28:35pm

re: #352 Naso Tang

No it doesn't take all night, but I've heard ex LDSers say much worse than I do in this this polite company.

We don't have to continue a slanging match, but for the record, I think Joseph Smith was a (convicted) con man who succeeded beyond most con men's dreams (except for being murdered when caught in the wrong bed), and once the momentum was big enough it took a life of it's own where one cannot have an alternative opinion without being excommunicated from ones family and upbringing. That latter issue is much stronger than something simple like logic and facts of history.

If you are here to hear only that which can't offend, may I suggest an LDS forum somewhere?

I guess that answers the question of whether he spends lots of time thinking up ways to offend people... I don't know where to begin with the problems in your narrative. You are correct that former mormons say worse - and the "no alternative opinion" canard is one of the classics. Since you obviously get your information from your disenfranchized and bitter ex-mo friend I'll chalk your comments up to ignorance.

Although why you would take someone's genuine question about Mormon's beliefs and use it as an opportunity to get in a shot is beyond me.

I will stop helping to derail the thread now.

566 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:28:43pm

re: #521 Killgore Trout

Very sad story, kinda bummed me out.

Same here. This is something that intellectually I cannot grasp.

And today my youngest grandchild, a toddling little boy, is 2! He and Sen. McCain have the same birthday. When I look at the love and caring all 3 grandkids get, and see things like this? I will never understand. never.

567 DesertSage  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:29:11pm

It's already a fact that the GOP has a better looking lineup of women then the Dems.

Now we can add one more!

568 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:29:30pm

re: #559 Chip Designer

I do protocol in my work. The droid title fits.

Shortcuts are OK on the web. But just notice the MSM reports. No "Governor" = Democrat Bias

Ahhh, sorry I thought you where going after commenters here for short cuts.

My bad.

569 Geepers  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:29:39pm

jcm (#4),

Newt is on Hannity. He says they'll go after he western, small town, small college roots.

Hell that sounds like actual "change" from the Harvard lawyer inside-the-Beltway cookie-cutter politician Obama is.

570 DistantThunder  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:30:04pm

On a feminist site that I visit I just read the comment:

"It surprises me that Palin is pro life and likes to hunt."

And this is why conservative Republicans win elections - libs do not understand the average person.

571 semper gumbi  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:30:08pm

re: #451 Cognito

Only a matter of time until someone coins "VPILF."

Or did I, just then?

That was done way, way up thread. Don't remember who, though.

572 Daddyg  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:30:33pm

re: #369 father_of_10

I guess my problem is taking offense when you spread lies about my religion, as is illustrated by your latest posting here. This is political forum, and at least 3 times now you have used it to libel my religion. Might I suggest you take your sputum to an anti-Mormon forum? Let's focus on LGF politics here.


Oops sorry Naso - didn't realize we were double teaming you.

Well you know - no dissenting opinions and all (just kidding) I'll lay off now.

573 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:30:36pm

re: #564 sattv4u2

No- these numbers were taken in the last three days. Rasmussen does a daily three day rolling average. The numbers might go up slightly tomorrow, but I think Palin sucked any air out of obama's sails and her effect will be felt in the next day or two.

574 bulwrk  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:30:59pm

re: #562 Fat Jolly Penguin

I think the Gallup daily tracking has Obama up 8 points after last nights msm love fest.

575 twincitiesgirl  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:31:39pm

It's been hard to log and post things here the last few days. I don't know anything about Palin other than what I've read on this site--mainly by male admirers enamored of her attributes. (political of course)

From what I've seen so far I like the way she handles herself. She seems knowledgeable without being arrogant, self assured without appearing condescending and altogether an articulate, well-rounded (no pun) candidate that can think on her feet. I think she will help, more than hurt McCain. I don't think the majority of Hilary supporters will vote for her, but many of the independents will.

576 pilgrimbill10  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:31:43pm

Later Lizards, Learning how to blog. LGF is the best place to learn. G-D Bless America. God bless LGF. Keep up the free expression of ideas.(sp) pb10

577 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:31:44pm

re: #552 NY Nana

And on the subject there cannot be more contrast between "punished by a baby" and carrying a down's child to term and loving it.

God bless America I hope SP is president one day.

578 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:32:19pm

re: #569 Geepers

jcm (#4),

Hell that sounds like actual "change" from the Harvard lawyer inside-the-Beltway cookie-cutter politician Obama is.

Reagan was small town, State Governor also.

579 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:32:49pm

re: #573 Sharmuta

No- these numbers were taken in the last three days. Rasmussen does a daily three day rolling average. The numbers might go up slightly tomorrow, but I think Palin sucked any air out of obama's sails and her effect will be felt in the next day or two.

I agree about Palin sucking the air out (GREAT Job, whoever is running McCains team, between this and the ads he's been running) but your link does state "the day before he announced Joe Biden would be his running mate."

580 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:34:07pm

re: #573 Sharmuta

Real Clear has Obama anywhere from TIED to UP 8 right now

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

581 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:34:09pm

re: #579 sattv4u2

Obama’s four-point lead reported on Friday morning is based on polling data collected Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday nights.

No- Rasmussen does a daily three day rolling poll.

582 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:34:31pm

re: #376 Killgore Trout

She's a Hempster...
"I can't claim a Bill Clinton and say that I never inhaled,"

Well, that tears it for me. Once a druggie, always a druggie.
///

583 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:34:44pm

re: #548 DesertSage

We did it Lee!

You and Killian and I were pushing really hard for Palin on the late night threads. I think the McCain staff were reading them! It worked.

We did it! :')

Thanks guys!
McCain/Palin '08!

584 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:34:57pm

re: #574 bulwrk

I think the Gallup daily tracking has Obama up 8 points after last nights msm love fest.

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

585 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:35:01pm

re: #560 Lynn B.

Great catch! Thank you. Something just does not pass the smell test. As Iposted earlier, Charles has them nailed.

Got to finish getting ready for our Shabbat dinner. Candlelighting is 7:14 PM today.

Shabbat shalom!

586 cliffster  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:35:09pm

re: #577 Ojoe

And on the subject there cannot be more contrast between "punished by a baby" and carrying a down's child to term and loving it.

God bless America I hope SP is president one day.

No matter what happens in the next 5 months, there is a very good chance your wish will come true.

587 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:35:40pm

So from the primaries we went from a lawyer who's married to another lawyer running against another lawyer who's married to another lawyer, both of whom are running against a war hero who's married to a brewery heiress.

Now we have the lawyer who's married to another lawyer and the dull career politician with hairplugs whos married to a community college teacher running against the war hero who's married to the brewery heiress and the hot hockey mom/governor whos married to a fisherman and oilfield worker.

588 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:35:48pm

re: #257 auldtrafford

The plain fact of the matter is that neither theory really explains the origin-of-everything. Evolution is good science, and explains a lot, but very simply doesn't explain what we evolved from. The "big bang" is a good place to stop the buck, but (i) where did all the stuff that went "bang" come from, (ii) what was here before the big bang, and (iii) what's beyond the limits of the expanding universe?

Creationism simply provides a way to get to the same questions more quickly: i.e., where did "God" come from?

In my mind, we ain't ever going to figure it all out, so why don't we spend our time fishing instead?

Oh, and I like Palin; she's sharp, a good speaker and charismatic as hell. I doubt she'll really attract much of the Hillary vote - she's too obviously conservative, and essentially the anti-Hillary. Doesn't bother me. She's the only V-P pick he could have made that will actually make me reconsider my decision to abstain.

We evolved from the same small set of common ancestors from which the rest of terrestrial life evolved. how life begain is not the province of evolution, but of origins of life theory. And it makes no sense to ask either what was before the Big Bang or outside the universe, since matter-energy creates spacetime by gravitational curvature. There was no before, and there is no outside. Even the word Universe means all that is/was/will be. And something came from nothing via quantum fluctuation. Even empty space isn't empty; matter-anti-matter particle pairs are constantly popping into and out of existence.

589 yochanan  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:35:52pm

[Link: dwb.adn.com...]

Todd Palin was a skilled blue collar worker for b.p. well paid but still working class. in DEC. he took a leave of absence since gov'r Palin was in negation over a gas pipeline.

i bet he was the only spouse of a candidate in either party for the top of the ticket to get grease on his cloths.

590 see bs  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:35:53pm

re: #53 Killgore Trout

Creationism and the agenda to teach it in public schools. Also I think many Republicans are scientifically illiterate and fear science and technology. Conservatism sometimes borders on a regressive world view.

Im sorry you feel that way.

591 coquimbojoe  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:35:55pm

re: #553 Sharmuta

Obama’s Convention Bounce

There's your big convention bounce, folks. A three point advantage.

That's got me worried...

/

592 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:36:01pm

re: #585 NY Nana

Have a lovely holiday weekend, Nana.

593 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:36:07pm

re: #580 sattv4u2

Real Clear has Obama anywhere from TIED to UP 8 right now

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

Average +3.9 pretty tepid convention bounce. Polls won't settle down for at least a week after the RNCC.

594 DesertSage  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:37:05pm

Is there any truth to the rumor that Biden's plugs fell out when he heard about Palin's nomination?

595 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:37:12pm

Well, at least we can be sure the old broad isn't a Eurofascist. Right?...

596 WrathofG-d  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:37:38pm

I wonder if Obama works on the 7th day.

597 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:37:39pm
598 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:37:56pm

I'm feeding the caged monkeys at HuffPo...they've gone completely off their rockers...LMAO

They go ballistic when you ask for facts and a link.

599 MandyManners  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:38:13pm

Let them attack her. It's not as if she belongs to a church whose preacher calls on the Lord God to damn America.

600 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:38:41pm

Mr. Palin goes by the moniker "First Dude". Right on.

601 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:38:42pm

re: #598 jorline

I'm feeding the caged monkeys at HuffPo...they've gone completely off their rockers...LMAO

They go ballistic when you ask for facts and a link.

Facts? We don' need no stinkin' facts !

602 Sylvester_T_Cat  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:38:43pm

re: #483 Opinionated

I mentioned this on another thread.

It is now an "issue"

Sarah Palin, Buchananite

AP 1999


[Link: www.thenation.com...]

"States' Rights" is a solid Republican, conservative position. The idea being that it is better to put decisions as close to the actual voter as possible. (Think "local control of schools" as opposed to "U.S. Dept of Education", for one example.)

It's one reason Alaska tends to vote Republican for national positions. Many Alaskans feel that their state has been treated like a colony rather than a state (no, peasants, you may NOT develop ANWR). There has been at least one official state "Statehood Commission" to evaluate whether the feds have honored their part of the 1959 statehood agreements and whether it might not be best to change status to "commonwealth" as opposed to "state" (vis a vis Puerto Rico, say).

Buchanan? So Palin wore a "Buchanan" button once at a small Buchanan speech she attended. I just see that as good manners and a bit of political astuteness to win over other people who attended the same speech. Doesn't make her a "Buchananite" in any sense of the word, I don't think.

Plus Buchanan imho has been wending his way down Mt. Sanity for a long time. The farther back you go in a timeline sense, the more 'together' the dude appeared... pre-Internet he was a halfway serious dude whose views were at least worth a look. Now, well, think "splashdown time at Loon Lake", heh.

603 BBev  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:38:43pm

re: #587 Fenway_Nation

So from the primaries we went from a lawyer who's married to another lawyer running against another lawyer who's married to another lawyer, both of whom are running against a war hero who's married to a brewery heiress.

Now we have the lawyer who's married to another lawyer and the dull career politician with hairplugs whos married to a community college teacher running against the war hero who's married to the brewery heiress and the hot hockey mom/governor whos married to a fisherman and oilfield worker.

Ya. so! I'm still going to vote McCain, Isn't life good :-)

604 vapig  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:38:45pm

What should be pointed out that we have two non-lawyers running against two lawyers.

That should do it.

605 kcladderman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:38:48pm
606 hazzyday  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:38:49pm

The chicago machine doesn't favor women as top ticket candidates. Candidate Obama is a pretty polite face for a lot of ugly leftism. Once in office he will create Ayer's influenced organizations. Ayer's might even get props so he can destroy more of the US than he wanted to before.

Che Che Change...

607 solomonpanting  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:39:25pm

re: #518 shiplord kirel

McCain has shown the kind of wisdom we would expect from a 72 year old survivor.
I think he realized that the Dems have completely failed to understand women voters or real feminists. They have taken women for granted and that is the real source of the anger we see among Hillary supporters. The selection of Palin is a death blow to Democrat pretensions.

The Dems take blacks for granted as well.

608 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:39:59pm

re: #585 NY Nana

Great catch! Thank you. Something just does not pass the smell test. As Iposted earlier, Charles has them nailed.

Got to finish getting ready for our Shabbat dinner. Candlelighting is 7:14 PM today.

Shabbat shalom!

Getting earlier much too fast for me. But not until 7:20 here. ;-)

Shabbat shalom to you as well!

609 WrathofG-d  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:40:08pm
610 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:41:08pm

re: #545 jcm

BHO is handing out free stuff? Missed that part, I was hanging on to my wallet too hard to hear the free stuff part.

Well, if you are one of the bottom 95% of wage-earners, he doesn't want you to pay taxes. But you'll be paying at the store for all the corporate taxes paid by the companies making the stuff you buy.

Here's my take on the speech:
He was angry; it stopped short of calling for revolution; just change.
He promised more than all the other would-be-presidents ever have - cheap health care, good jobs that cannot be sent abroad, cheap fuel, college for everyone, and anything else you could imagine. And also 95% of the working families wouldn't have to pay any taxes.
Anyone who buys this speech, I have a bridge to sell.
And as I said, he was angry. He is a Sith Lord, turning the Dems to the dark side of the force.

I think he blew the election. He hasn't crashed and burned yet, but he blew out his engines.

611 Lynn B.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:41:49pm

re: #604 vapig

What should be pointed out that we have two non-lawyers running against two lawyers.

That should do it.

Hey! Watch that!

/splutter, splutter ...

612 DistantThunder  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:42:02pm

re: #352 Naso Tang

No it doesn't take all night, but I've heard ex LDSers say much worse than I do in this this polite company.

We don't have to continue a slanging match, but for the record, I think Joseph Smith was a (convicted) con man who succeeded beyond most con men's dreams (except for being murdered when caught in the wrong bed), and once the momentum was big enough it took a life of it's own where one cannot have an alternative opinion without being excommunicated from ones family and upbringing. That latter issue is much stronger than something simple like logic and facts of history.

If you are here to hear only that which can't offend, may I suggest an LDS forum somewhere?

Joseph Smith offered himself up for arrest along with his brother when he was falsely accused of crime. A drooling, drunken mob of a 100 men, most with their faces blackened, stormed the jail where he, and two other friends were being held, and Joseph was shot and murdered in cold blood.

Earlier in the day he had written to his wife:

On the morning of June 27, 1844, while at Carthage Jail, Joseph wrote a letter to his wife, Emma, "I am very much resigned to my lot, knowing I am justified, and have done the best that could be done. Give my love to the children and all my friends ... May God bless you all"

The state of Missouri had issued an "extermination order" on all Mormons. men women and children, as the state was attempting to remain a slave state, and the Mormons were anti-slave voters with a fast growing immigrant population.

613 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:42:42pm

re: #599 MandyManners

I am still completely FURIOUS about Rev. Wright and Naw Naw Naw ...

And the Dems for running a candidate under my nose who would sit for 20 years in such a "church".

(deleted, how very sad)

614 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:42:57pm

re: #577 Ojoe

And on the subject there cannot be more contrast between "punished by a baby" and carrying a down's child to term and loving it.

God bless America ...

Oh, I agree re the baby. And with the medical advances? I pray that her baby will be able to have a normal life...

Even now there are kids with Down Syndrome who operate at a high level, and go to college, and there is always research going on.

BBL!

615 LemonJoose  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:43:00pm

re: #507 wolfie

Whoa.
I think I'm having a hot flash... or something.

Does anyone else think this may be the first campaign in history where the VP nominee's spouse will be a real potential asset to the campaign? Palin's husband is a blue-collar worker for BP and member of the steel worker's union who races snowmobiles, and women seem to think he's attractive.

I can't help but think that the VP being married to a guy like that will help the campaign in places like Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Ohio.

Also, being a hockey family will not hurt them in Minnesota and Michigan.

616 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:43:43pm

re: #612 DistantThunder

I am not LDS, but I have read my history, and have even occasion to visit the place of his murder. What you write is true.

617 semper gumbi  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:43:52pm

Question: Have any of the Alaska Lizards chimed in with their opinions yet? I know one of them was arguing against Governor Palin a few days ago because of the on-going investigation into the firing of the State employee. Just curious what they think now that she has been picked.

618 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:44:11pm

re: #589 yochanan

[Link: dwb.adn.com...]

Todd Palin was a skilled blue collar worker for b.p. well paid but still working class. in DEC. he took a leave of absence since gov'r Palin was in negation over a gas pipeline.

i bet he was the only spouse of a candidate in either party for the top of the ticket to get grease on his cloths.


Championsip snowmobile racer, too...

619 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:44:56pm

re: #610 Kosh's Shadow

re: #610 Kosh's Shadow


I think he blew the election. He hasn't crashed and burned yet, but he blew out his engines.

I hope so, taxes is the single largest cost I have, followed distantly by my mortgage.

620 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:45:01pm

Convention Bounce

According to RealClearPolitics, Obambi led by 4.3 pnts (average) on July 22nd right before the big Biden pick. Now, after his big speech at Nurenburg, he leads by 3.9 pnts.

0.4% inverted dead cat bounce (i.e. loss)

He's toast.

621 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:45:04pm

re: #618 Fenway_Nation

Todd sounds like the Tim McGraw of politics.

622 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:45:29pm

re: #304 Pawn of the Oppressor

They won't. They are going to be viscious, condescending, and mean. She's small, she's pretty, she's new, and they are going to tear her down any way they can. She's a new Monica Lewinsky for them, and whatever principles they allegedly cling to will be flushed right down the double-standard-crapper if it means belittling and marginalizing anything she's ever done.

Just the fact that she's a Republican makes her a gender traitor, for starters.

They'll probaby try the Paula Jones rednecked hillbilly trailer trash label first.

623 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:45:48pm

re: #580 sattv4u2

Real Clear has Obama anywhere from TIED to UP 8 right now

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

"satt4" -

AND - The Republican Convention hasn't started as yet. Dead even, until November with a nail biting Election Night.

-S-

624 Fluffster  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:46:00pm

“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class."

625 debutaunt  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:46:16pm

re: #399 vbspurs

Except he's not a Communist and she's not a Creationist...

He isn't much of a Capitalist.

626 Typicalwhitey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:46:17pm

They are attacking and using baseless bs to do it:

Palin's faked "pregnancy"? Covering for teen daughter?

I won't link to kos on this one, but the jerks are simply making stuff up here.

627 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:47:04pm

re: #620 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

There will be more polling going on over the weekend. Whatever momentum obama had last night after his speech was wiped out by Sarah.

Note to obama team- this is how you effectively announce a Veep... not at 3am with a text message.

628 Fluffster  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:47:09pm

re: #624 Fluffster

“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class."

Yay, I'm an idiot. What I meant to add is that I can't see how anybody can honestly find very much anti-science about that position.

629 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:47:14pm

re: #589 yochanan

[Link: dwb.adn.com...]

Todd Palin was a skilled blue collar worker for b.p. well paid but still working class. in DEC. he took a leave of absence since gov'r Palin was in negation over a gas pipeline.

i bet he was the only spouse of a candidate in either party for the top of the ticket to get grease on his cloths.

I agree.

And it sounds like he has not the slightest bit of awkwardness concerning his situation. From the story you linked to:

"For those of us who learn by touching and tearing stuff apart and for those who don't have the financial background to go to college, just being a product of that on-the-job training is really important," Palin said one morning over pastries at an Anchorage coffee shop, before meeting with trainers at several companies and trade groups in Anchorage and Wasilla.

Palin, who took college courses, but does not have a degree, said he is grateful for the training he received from the multinational oil company BP starting in 1989.

Until recently, he earned hourly wages as a production operator in a BP-run facility that separates oil from gas and water. Palin was making between $100,000 and $120,000 a year before he went on leave in December to make more time for his family and avoid potential conflicts of interest. London-based BP is heavily involved in the gas pipeline negotiations with his wife's administration

630 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:47:16pm

re: #622 Salamantis

They'll probaby try the Paula Jones rednecked hillbilly trailer trash label first.

She's from ALASKA, she KILLED a MOOSE! That makes Arkansas trailer trash look positively 5th Ave. by comparison.

/

631 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:47:33pm

re: #601 sattv4u2

Facts? We don' need no stinkin' facts !

If these people ever get control of this country we're in a shit load of trouble.

632 reine.de.tout  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:47:57pm

re: #598 jorline

I'm feeding the caged monkeys at HuffPo...they've gone completely off their rockers...LMAO

They go ballistic when you ask for facts and a link.

Where? Where?

633 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:48:03pm

The guys at Powerline have a Palin upside post. They were critical, but look at those upsides. Hee ya. For example, get a load of this corker:

Wharton Econometrics Forecasting Associates estimates that developing ANWR petroleum alone could create 736,000 American jobs. How about if we stop outsourcing our energy production and drill ourselves a few million great, high-paying jobs?

That sucks every breath of wind out of Obama's proposals, and you know what? Palin actually knows how to get this done.

634 coquimbojoe  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:48:12pm

re: #612 DistantThunder

Wow, Naso just went straight off the rails didn't he? You are much to easy going with that sort of foolishness!

635 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:48:18pm

re: #623 Dr. Shalit

"satt4" -

AND - The Republican Convention hasn't started as yet. Dead even, until November with a nail biting Election Night.

-S-

With this, and the RNC next week, then Palin wowing the base while McCain keeps on being McCain,
With Biden sure to put both feet in his mouth at some time
With more and more people seeing Obama as an empty suit (my apologies to coat hangers)
I'm now not worried about my nails election night

636 MandyManners  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:48:50pm

re: #604 vapig

What should be pointed out that we have two non-lawyers running against two lawyers.

That should do it.

Has America ever had non-attorneys as both president and vice-president?

637 yochanan  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:49:19pm

re: #555 Outrider

Excellent. I thought I was about the only one that felt that way and just blamed it on my Army background.

Gov'r Palin has been gov'r almost as long as sen. obama has been a senator and if you take off the time obama has been running for prresident she has more experance.

638 MandyManners  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:49:29pm

re: #613 Ojoe

I am still completely FURIOUS about Rev. Wright and Naw Naw Naw ...

And the Dems for running a candidate under my nose who would sit for 20 years in such a "church".

(deleted, how very sad)

They think we're stupid.

639 Maximu§  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:49:36pm

Michael Savage is ragging on Sarah Palin.

640 Amillennialist  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:49:46pm

The only important points of contention between atheistic naturalism and special creation are abiogenesis and vertical speciation by natural processes only.

There is no empirical (observable) evidence for abiogenesis, which is why Darwinists (here, at least) like to avoid the topic.

To assume that since microevolution and lateral speciation occur naturally, vertical speciation does too, when -- as Salamantis admits -- no one can observe it, is bad logic.

Concluding from similarities between organisms a chain of descent without observing such a phenomenon occur is also bad science.

Consider that after tens of thousands of generations, Lenski's E. coli evolved into . . . E. coli, not multicellular organisms.

On the other hand, we do know that:

-Life only arises from Life and Life's programs,
-No machine arises apart from a designer,
-No program arises apart from a programmer,
-A living cell is a highly-complex, Von Neumann-type metabolic machine, and
-No one has ever observed random, minor genetic mutations in an organism result in newer, more complex program, structure, and function.

Without actual empirical evidence of vertical speciation occurring, to teach it as truth is not Science, it's Science Fiction.

(Can anyone here offer a substantive and relevant rejoinder to any of the points I raise without engaging in ad hominem attacks or other fallacious arguments?)

641 jorline  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:49:49pm

re: #632 reine.de.tout

Where? Where?

What thread?
I'm on the Sarah Palin: McCain's Vice President thread.

642 Rancher  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:49:51pm

From Fred Thompson:

At this crucial moment in our nation’s history, it is vital that we adhere to the fundamental conservative principles that have unified us for over two centuries. On Monday, September 1, Senator Fred Thompson will announce a major new effort to ensure that these conservative principles are supported and defended across our country and at every level of government.

What's this?

643 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:50:30pm

re: #636 MandyManners

Has America ever had non-attorneys as both president and vice-president?

Carter was a peanut farmer and Mondale was a dept. store mannequin

644 Thanos  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:50:45pm

re: #617 semper gumbi

Question: Have any of the Alaska Lizards chimed in with their opinions yet? I know one of them was arguing against Governor Palin a few days ago because of the on-going investigation into the firing of the State employee. Just curious what they think now that she has been picked.

That's pretty much trumped up BS. The dems are on a corruption roll in Alaska because of Stevens, Young, Murkowski, and they are trying to tar everyone with an "R" in front of their name right now.

In the part of the speech where she talked about taking on "the good old boy" network in Alaska it was a nod to the feminists, even though it sounds like one. She had the nerve to take on Ted Stevens, and she did well. The good old boy network runs all the way back to Jesse Carr, who ran the unions in Alaska like Hoffa.

645 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:50:54pm

Here's another ringer:

Todd Palin was making between $100,000 and $120,000 a year before he went on leave in December to make more time for his family

That's a "blue collar" job. I knew guys at the Dow plant in Plaquemine, Louisiana, who were making around that much with a two-year degree and on-the-job training for a few years. Young guys. They'd work six weeks and then take a month off to go hunting near the Mississippi border.

This guy pockets the dough and helps out his family so his wife can run an entire state.

That's America, people. That's who we are.

646 WrathofG-d  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:50:57pm

re: #638 MandyManners

They think we're stupid.

you seen the polls?...I think so too :D

647 wolfie  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:51:05pm

re: #622 Salamantis

They'll probaby try the Paula Jones rednecked hillbilly trailer trash label first.

I sure hope so!
The Reagan Democrats just looove voting against snobs.

648 bulwrk  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:51:07pm

re: #630 jcm

Her favorite meal is moose stew.

649 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:51:07pm

re: #622 Salamantis

They'll probaby try the Paula Jones rednecked hillbilly trailer trash label first.

Dude, she was on the cover of Vogue. That would be a hard case to make. ;)

650 semper gumbi  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:51:46pm

re: #636 MandyManners

Has America ever had non-attorneys as both president and vice-president?

Vice President Cheney is a lawyer?

651 Geepers  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:51:48pm

LemonJoose (#615),

Does anyone else think this may be the first campaign in history where the VP nominee's spouse will be a real potential asset to the campaign? Palin's husband is a blue-collar worker for BP and member of the steel worker's union who races snowmobiles, and women seem to think he's attractive.

I can't help but think that the VP being married to a guy like that will help the campaign in places like Pennsylvania, West Virginia, and Ohio.

I do. He's spitting image of one of my hunting/fishing redneck softball-playing buddies.

652 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:51:51pm

re: #592 Pvt Bin Jammin

Same to you and yours, Pvt. ;)

Here is a very happy 2 year old! Can't believe he is 2 already!

653 solomonpanting  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:51:59pm

So here we have an elderly Republican war hero with health issues running for President against a very liberal Illinois Senator proposing huge government spending on social programs.
Oh, you mean this isn't Eisenhower against Stevenson?

654 theheat  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:52:17pm

re: #557 Salem

Well, there's a few issues about sex and contraception that are pretty huge, off the top of my head... You see, once upon a time there was this state called somethingorother Dakota... And then I heard some homosexuals were a'marryin' each other over there on the left coast... From there we devolve to ID, and more religion in public schools - from baskeball prayers to footbaths.

So, yeah, there are a few issues I feel are as important as Blinkity Blink and Obama taking away my guns and cigarettes. And these issues most often come with those Fundie Fries I mentioned earlier.

I still just want the burger.

655 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:52:45pm

re: #648 bulwrk

Her favorite meal is moose stew.

She just lost the Moosylvania vote.

656 Cognito  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:53:04pm

re: #645 godfrey

Here's another ringer:

That's a "blue collar" job.

Ah, $120K is pretty hefty, for a 'blue collar' job.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it doesn't happen often.

657 kuffar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:53:13pm

re: #633 godfrey

I heard that the oil fields and mines in Alaska start out hourly pay at around 25 an hour for lowest paid positions. If they open up ANWR, I might try to get on.

658 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:53:35pm

re: #627 Sharmuta

There will be more polling going on over the weekend. Whatever momentum obama had last night after his speech was wiped out by Sarah.

Note to obama team- this is how you effectively announce a Veep... not at 3am with a text message.

True... I figure he's at his peak "bounce" now... polling done from this point on will be changed by the Sarah announcement and (later) the RNC.

-0.4... hope Soros got his money's worth. :-)

659 Quintus_Arius  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:53:39pm

I can't imagine this election turning on a debate about Genesis and and the existence of primordial molecules.

I'm more concerned about atoms, i.e. like those being smashed in Iranian centrifuges

/cut me some slack on nuclear science

660 lori lane  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:53:58pm

Just now on MSNBC, Maddow was saying that she is more like a Dan Quayle pick, that she was asked today what McCain's policy was on Iraq and she had no answer for that. Not sure if that is accurate, but they are ripping her good, of course. Also saying that it's a bad pick for McCain b/c they have no relationship. That who knows if they had ever talked before. Good grief. Are they that dumb? And since when do the candidates actually have to have a prior relationship to work with each other? ARrgh.

661 Scorch  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:54:04pm

re: #370 Eowyn2

nice avatar

Thank you. I had a love, hate relationship with the old A6 Intruder.

662 LeePro  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:54:30pm

re: #548 DesertSage

We did it Lee!

You and Killian and I were pushing really hard for Palin on the late night threads. I think the McCain staff were reading them! It worked.

We did it! :')

wooHOOO! ! !

663 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:54:35pm

re: #639 Maximu§

Who is Michael Savage?

664 Geepers  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:54:46pm

Fenway_Nation (#618),

Championsip snowmobile racer, too...

Nice. He's a winner.

665 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:54:47pm

re: #645 godfrey

Here's another ringer:

That's a "blue collar" job. I knew guys at the Dow plant in Plaquemine, Louisiana, who were making around that much with a two-year degree and on-the-job training for a few years. Young guys. They'd work six weeks and then take a month off to go hunting near the Mississippi border.

This guy pockets the dough and helps out his family so his wife can run an entire state.

That's America, people. That's who we are.

Watch the shows on Discovery and related channels. This stuff is tough, dangerous work, and they really earn it.

666 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:54:53pm

re: #630 jcm

She's from ALASKA, she KILLED a MOOSE! That makes Arkansas trailer trash look positively 5th Ave. by comparison.

/

jcm -

If she killed it - I bet she ate it too! Three cheers for Mooseburger Sarah.

-S-

667 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:54:55pm

Someone named Bill Otis said this on the Powerline thread:

Palin will need tutoring against Biden, however. He can pack more lies into one sentence than anyone since Slick Willy -- indeed even more, since the sentences are longer.

So tutor her. All she has to do is roll her eyes and launch into it. He's an old bear. She's got the 30.06. Bean him.

668 semper gumbi  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:55:03pm

re: #656 Cognito

Ah, $120K is pretty hefty, for a 'blue collar' job.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it doesn't happen often.

Not when you consider the cost of living in Alaska.

669 hazzyday  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:56:13pm

I've seen big coverage locally this past week on Obama.
Local papers all have the very large type headlines on HISTORY in the makking. Local news reporters all glowing on the positives of Obama. Prime time coverage by the MSM every night. Late night comedians all skewering McCain on his age every chance. An Obama joke actually becomes a McCain joke.

Time and Newsweek both featuring Obama covers at the newsstand.

Now I am interested to see how the MSM celebrates Palin's nomination.

670 LeePro  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:56:20pm

re: #553 Sharmuta

Obama’s Convention Bounce

There's your big convention bounce, folks. A three point advantage. After today and after next week- obama can kiss this bounce good-bye.

HOPE!

671 JCM  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:56:24pm

re: #636 MandyManners

Has America ever had non-attorneys as both president and vice-president?

Bush (history)
Cheney (poli-sci)

Reagan (economics and sociology)
Bush (economics)

672 sattv4u2  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:56:34pm

re: #656 Cognito

Ah, $120K is pretty hefty, for a 'blue collar' job.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it doesn't happen often.

120K is not "hefty" by Alaskan standards. They pay more there (I'm talking a good "blue collar" job, not K-Mart or soemthing like that) because the skilled labor pool isn't as deep. Also, the cost of living is higher and many companies pay more depending on where you are (If I had taken a transfer to Denver from Atlanta doing the same job I am now I would have gotten a 14% bump up because the cost of living in Denver was that much more that Georgia)

673 kuffar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:56:38pm

re: #668 semper gumbi

I know a few carpenters in New England, these are gofers and godooers that get paid over 40 an hour.

674 Maximu§  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:57:00pm

The fact that Palin’s son is serving in the US Army and heading to Iraq, while Biden's son is a MFing lobbyist lawyer is enough reason to vote for the McCain/Palin ticket.

675 yochanan  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:57:25pm

re: #618 Fenway_Nation

Mr Palin does not have to fake his blue collar roots like john edwards had to do.

676 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:57:31pm

The other thing to consider about Palin - Energy independence. She wants to drill the heck out of Alaska.

Did you hear that crashing sound? That's the sound of chairs falling over in Saudi palaces as the oil sheiks bolt for their checkbooks to make Obama campaign donations.

677 Scorch  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:57:36pm

re: #379 sattv4u2

long long winters up in Alaska!


Am I mistaken or does not Alaska allow the growing of marijuana for personal use due to the long winters?

678 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:57:49pm

re: #657 kuffar

You can get $25/hr doing construction in New Orleans and environs. Or could. Probably still can. A year ago, they were hiring Mexicans off the boats because there were so many unfilled jobs. I hear things are cooler now, but when things are hot, they're hot. Take advantage of it.

679 calcajun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:58:10pm

So many thing to talk about.

First, Jim Dobson has already come out and said he will vote for McCain. This is the affect that McCain wanted Palin to have. She is there to shore up the base - first and foremost--and unless she turns out to be Dan Quayle in a bra--she will do it very well. Second, Electoral Politics is a game of states and counties. The GOP needs to keep what it had in 2004 and make up ground where it can. As a southerner, I strongly believe that Obama will not carry one southern state; too many old-time Democrats are just not ready for the idea of an Obama. I hate to say that, but I think that is the truth. The Dems need the Midwest and Bayh would have been a better choice in that respect. The GOP, too needs the Midwest, especially Ohio --why do you think Palin was unveiled in Dayton. Hillary beat Obama by double digits in OH and PA--big time PUMA country. That's the other reason for Palin; she's a Reagan "Democrat" in essence and she will do well in those states.

Her selection will either be a huge gaffe or one of the most brilliant political strategic moves in US history. We'll see how she does in Minneapolis next week.

680 Pvt Bin Jammin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:58:14pm

re: #652 NY Nana

Thanks for that adorable picture!

Sorry it took me so long to respond. I was logged off even though it said logged on.

681 Maximu§  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:58:25pm

re: #663 rawmuse

Who is Michael Savage?

He has a large radio show, but tends to be on the far-far right.

682 godfrey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:58:37pm

re: #669 hazzyday

They won't celebrate it. They'll criticize it.

683 JCM  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:58:43pm

re: #674 Maximu§

The fact that Palin’s son is serving in the US Army and heading to Iraq, while Biden's son is a MFing lobbyist lawyer is enough reason to vote for the McCain/Palin ticket.

Don't forget McCain has a son in Iraq, or just returned.

That'll be funny... a combat soldier with Secret Service protection...
/

684 calcajun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:59:17pm

re: #642 Rancher

Not a third party. But, if Fred runs this as he ran in the primaries, we've little to fear.

685 JCM  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:59:22pm

re: #681 Maximu§

He has a large radio show, but tends to be on the far-far right.

Dropped off the cliff right...

686 CIA Reject  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:59:30pm

re: #570 DistantThunder

On a feminist site that I visit I just read the comment:

"It surprises me that Palin is pro life and likes to hunt."

And this is why conservative Republicans win elections - libs do not understand the average person.

That attitude is summed up by the Hollywood type (her name escapes me) who said that she couldn't understand how Richard Nixon had won the election of 1972 because "nobody I know voted for him!"

That's right lady, it's all about you!

/

687 Thanos  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 3:59:35pm

re: #672 sattv4u2

120K is not "hefty" by Alaskan standards. They pay more there (I'm talking a good "blue collar" job, not K-Mart or soemthing like that) because the skilled labor pool isn't as deep. Also, the cost of living is higher and many companies pay more depending on where you are (If I had taken a transfer to Denver from Atlanta doing the same job I am now I would have gotten a 14% bump up because the cost of living in Denver was that much more that Georgia)


Agreed, I was making 18.00 an hour at a starter job there in '76. At that time kids wouldn't shovel snow for less than 7 bucks an hour.

688 yochanan  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:00:06pm

re: #609 WrathofG-d

very nice shabat shalom

689 Maximu§  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:00:13pm

re: #683 JCM

Don't forget McCain has a son in Iraq, or just returned.

That'll be funny... a combat soldier with Secret Service protection...
/

Yeah, the soldiers will end up protecting them out in the sticks.

690 calcajun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:00:14pm

re: #675 yochanan

Didn't Edwards have to dye his roots?
/

691 Sharmuta  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:00:26pm

re: #649 rawmuse

Dude, she was on the cover of Vogue. That would be a hard case to make. ;)

I saw on another blog that that Vogue cover is a photoshop- she was photographed for Vogue, but I don't think she was the cover girl.

692 rawmuse  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:00:34pm

re: #681 Maximu§

I know, I forgot the sarc tag. I personally dislike him.

693 kcladderman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:00:34pm

re: #659 Quintus_Arius

Accidental down ding!

694 Fenway_Nation  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:00:59pm

re: #665 Kosh's Shadow

Watch the shows on Discovery and related channels. This stuff is tough, dangerous work, and they really earn it.

God bless Thom Beers and some of these other producers for shows like Ice Road Truckers, Dirty Jobs, Deadliest Catch, Axemen or Black Gold. Granted some of these guys are trying too hard to interject a soap-opera element into some of these shows (I probably would too if I had to do a dozen episodes instead of one) but I'm gratified to see something on the air that glorifies blue collar, hard-working people instead of metrosexual pansies or vacuous bimbos...

695 kuffar  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:01:20pm

re: #678 godfrey

I know a few laborers who went down to Nawlans after Katrina for clean-up, including hazardous waste. They made, on top of Per Diem and Hazard pay, about 40 an hour. One guy made enough in 3 months to take the rest of the year off.

These were all Union jobs. Not all Unions burn workplaces down.

696 Maximu§  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:01:28pm

re: #685 JCM

Dropped off the cliff right...

Yeah, I think of myself as a moderate conservative...I don't like crazy people on the left or crazy ones on the right.

697 calcajun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:01:32pm

re: #691 Sharmuta

A woman in both Vogue and Guns & Ammo. Sigh. A gal like that can put steam in a man's strides.

698 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:01:39pm

re: #588 Salamantis

We evolved from the same small set of common ancestors from which the rest of terrestrial life evolved. how life begain is not the province of evolution, but of origins of life theory. And it makes no sense to ask either what was before the Big Bang or outside the universe, since matter-energy creates spacetime by gravitational curvature. There was no before, and there is no outside. Even the word Universe means all that is/was/will be. And something came from nothing via quantum fluctuation. Even empty space isn't empty; matter-anti-matter particle pairs are constantly popping into and out of existence.

Wow - no end of what you can learn here. And you know this because ...? Re-creatable experimentation, perhaps? "No outside"? Have we tried going out there? Is the door locked, or what? How about looking out the window?

699 silversmith  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:01:41pm

My main problem with voting Republican is that I am not in the least way Religious. I am a put up or shut up kind of guy when it comes to beliefs. This is why I like McCain. I don't like his religion and I don't like creationism. I find it offensive.

I have voted republican for many years.

I probably will again, but if they start spouting religious crap I will vote for the other side in a heartbeat. I am sick of religion and tired of looking at it's ugly face.

700 bitterhop  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:02:47pm

For Palin to even suggest that Creationism should be the subject of a meaningful educational debate puts her FIRMLY in the Creationist camp. Soft-pedal or not on this issue, there is clearly a Creationist on the McCain ticket.

701 WrathofG-d  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:03:01pm

re: #683 JCM


Didn't eisenhower got SS protection?

702 LSD  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:03:14pm
“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.” ... “I won’t have religion as a litmus test, or anybody’s personal opinion on evolution or creationism,”

Palin quotes that will be shelved and ignored in the next 2 months...

703 MandyManners  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:03:14pm

re: #646 WrathofG-d

you seen the polls?...I think so too :D

What are the polls showing?

704 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:03:45pm

Ooooh goody, a Kos-bashing thread. *hurries upstairs*

705 LeePro  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:04:33pm

re: #594 DesertSage

Is there any truth to the rumor that Biden's plugs fell out when he heard about Palin's nomination?

ROTFLOL! ! !

Something tells me they'll wish they had EAR-PLUGS now! ! !

706 Outrider  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:05:20pm

re: #627 Sharmuta

There will be more polling going on over the weekend. Whatever momentum obama had last night after his speech was wiped out by Sarah.

Note to obama team- this is how you effectively announce a Veep... not at 3am with a text message.

And they couldn't get that right either.

707 nikis-knight  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:05:52pm

re: #699 silversmith

My main problem with voting Republican is that I am not in the least way Religious. I am a put up or shut up kind of guy when it comes to beliefs. This is why I like McCain. I don't like his religion and I don't like creationism. I find it offensive.

I have voted republican for many years.

I probably will again, but if they start spouting religious crap I will vote for the other side in a heartbeat. I am sick of religion and tired of looking at it's ugly face.

Yeah, because its not like the dems just put a religious coat of paint all over their socialism last wekk or anything.

/

708 Geepers  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:05:56pm

bitterhop (#700),

Stopped by after the kos link?

709 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:06:18pm

re: #699 silversmith

My main problem with voting Republican is that I am not in the least way Religious. I am a put up or shut up kind of guy when it comes to beliefs. This is why I like McCain. I don't like his religion and I don't like creationism. I find it offensive.

I have voted republican for many years.

I probably will again, but if they start spouting religious crap I will vote for the other side in a heartbeat. I am sick of religion and tired of looking at it's ugly face.

Talk about ugly religion: Have you heard about the Church Obama went to for 20 years? Now that's some old time religion.

710 Thanos  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:06:23pm

Someone asked about Marijuana law in Alaska, it appears to be the same it was when I left in the late 80's:

In 1975, Alaska removed all penalties for possession of marijuana under 28.45 grams (one ounce) in one's residence or home. Sale of less than 28.45 grams is a misdemeanor, punishable by up to a year in jail and up to a $5,000 fine;[1] at the time, in most states sale of less than 28.45 grams was a felony offence.

With the 1975 Ravin v. State decision, the Alaska Supreme Court declared the state's anti-drug law unconstitutional with respect to possession of small amounts of marijuana, holding that the right to privacy guaranteed by the Alaska state constitution outweighed the state's interest in banning the drug.[2] Despite a 1990 initiative statute and a 2006 legislative statute contradicting the Ravin decision, Alaska courts continue to follow Ravin, voiding laws which criminalize possession of small amounts of cannabis.[3][4][5] This allows possession of fewer than 25 plants in one's residence or home.[1]

711 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:06:35pm

re: #614 NY Nana

Oh, I agree re the baby. And with the medical advances? I pray that her baby will be able to have a normal life...

Even now there are kids with Down Syndrome who operate at a high level, and go to college, and there is always research going on.

BBL!

NY Nana, let me tell you my Down story...

A while back, there were many Down kids and adults that were warehoused in Colorado in institutions deemed as necessary for those who were presumed not of mental competency to determine their own lives.

Thanks to a wonderful decision by the courts, it was ruled unconstitutional to confine those who posed no threat to society as though they were not citizens of this country by natural right. The state was ordered to transition all those thousands of people into society, and thus came into being "half-way" houses for those who would soon be sent out to determine their own directions in life.

I happened to live next door to one of these group transition homes, and one particular young woman, I'm going to guess that she was right around 18 and not much older, was released to spend daytime hours on her own.

I observed and worried terribly about her at first. She'd sit on the curb at the bus stop with her feet in the road of the busiest boulevard in the area. I thought it was a horrible riske that she'd be struck by some driver who was either no sober or not paying attention.

She was also, appearance-wise, kind of a mess. She really had no sense or care of self. But they set her out on her discovery nonetheless.

In one year I watched her transform from a silent and angry mess of a person to someone who took pride in who she was. Every day it seemed she made more and more of an attempt to make herself better and more attractive. And in one year she transformed from an angry lost sheep into a person that I can honestly say radiated personal attractiveness.

She met a guy, another Down person, who was going through the same phases. He was more of a rebel, more outspoken and assertive. He wore a funky black cowboy hat that said "Don't mess with me". And they fell in love. It wasn't an instant thing, but I could tell immediately when that magic event occurred.

They applied for a marriage license and married, and I expect that they are the wonderful parents of beautiful kids these days, the antithesis of what society had planned for the miserable rest of their lives.

712 yochanan  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:06:48pm

re: #683 JCM

Don't forget McCain has a son in Iraq, or just returned.

That'll be funny... a combat soldier with Secret Service protection...
/

between john and sarah there are 3 of there children in the service two who went or are going to iraq and one in the military acadamy.

713 calcajun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:07:46pm

re: #698 auldtrafford

Frankly, I kinda see the ID point of view. Look at embryos of various different mammals and at about 3 weeks, they are virtually identical. Then, they develop into different species as they continue to gestate.

There has to be design because of the apparent evidence of laziness in the design. It's like the old days of GM when you couldn't tell a Buick from an Olds until the final trim went on. If life really evolved on a random basis, then you should have all sorts of weirdness on this planet (apart from the French Quarter and the Castro District) instead of mammal embryos coming off the production line.

This is meant to be halfway sarcastic

714 neocon hippie  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:08:19pm

LGF is still acting very strangely on Firefox 2 (XP). "Show top rated links" is still greyed out, and the ding up/down/view dingers functions have turned into links to the homepage.

715 keithgabryelski  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:08:31pm

re: #495 StinkHammer

States' rights -- how awful!

It's not about whether she's agrees with him on state's rights -- it's that anyone could support Pat Buchanan wholeheartedly rather than just the partial phrases (like state's rights!) taken out of context of his hate speech.

716 LemonJoose  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:09:25pm

re: #656 Cognito

Ah, $120K is pretty hefty, for a 'blue collar' job.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it doesn't happen often.

Blue collar oil and fishing jobs in Alaska tend to be pretty dangerous, and Alaska is fricken cold for like 9-10 months a year. That's why I think they tend to pay better.

717 Piglet-U93  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:10:07pm

re: #639 Maximu§

Michael Savage is ragging on Sarah Palin.

I checked it, you are right, he must be getting senile or still in a state of angst after dropping his lawsuit against CAIR.

718 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:10:58pm

re: #696 Maximu§

Yeah, I think of myself as a moderate conservative...I don't like crazy people on the left or crazy ones on the right.

I think of my self as classical liberal, conservative / libertarian. Which means while personally extremely conservative, I also have a large live and let live streak.

719 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:11:21pm

re: #694 Fenway_Nation

God bless Thom Beers and some of these other producers for shows like Ice Road Truckers, Dirty Jobs, Deadliest Catch, Axemen or Black Gold. Granted some of these guys are trying too hard to interject a soap-opera element into some of these shows (I probably would too if I had to do a dozen episodes instead of one) but I'm gratified to see something on the air that glorifies blue collar, hard-working people instead of metrosexual pansies or vacuous bimbos...

Four of my favorite shows. As I said at work, I like to see people doing something useful and productive, unlike at work.

720 Salem  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:12:32pm

re: #654 theheat

Well, there's a few issues about sex and contraception that are pretty huge, off the top of my head... You see, once upon a time there was this state called somethingorother Dakota... And then I heard some homosexuals were a'marryin' each other over there on the left coast... From there we devolve to ID, and more religion in public schools - from baskeball prayers to footbaths.

So, yeah, there are a few issues I feel are as important as Blinkity Blink and Obama taking away my guns and cigarettes. And these issues most often come with those Fundie Fries I mentioned earlier.

I still just want the burger.

Yeah, I agree. I can see being opposed to abortion on ethical grounds, but then you're still holding the mother prisoner to an unwanted child that the church doesn't seem have nearly as much interest in as making everyone honor their religious beliefs. I happen to be pro-choice, though I hope that technology will make unwanted pregnancies, and thus the abortion issue, moot. Because ultimately you can't dress up killing babies as anything other than killing babies, which somewhat taints the notion of a civilized, and civilizing, society. I reserve suspicion of gay marriage, too, for reasons I don't care to detail, but then I have suspicion of a lot of things that I'm not going to go to any lengths to oppose. As far as ID, the left has their own death grip on most aspects of public education and they've made Al Gore a veritable saint. Which is why that would be an example of something the Dems are even more strident about dismantling.

721 Dr. Shalit  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:13:10pm

re: #663 rawmuse

Who is Michael Savage?

"raw" -

A guy who IS GOOD in what he does, has done a LOT - AND - NOT QUITE as good as "Dr. Levin" - The Great one.

-S-

722 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:14:16pm

re: #717 Piglet-U93

I checked it, you are right, he must be getting senile or still in a state of angst after dropping his lawsuit against CAIR.

Michael Savage is an entertainer - he is not a principled conservative, no matter what he says.

He is not, for example, for free trade; he is a protectionist. That is not a conservative viewpoint - I think he's a bit of a Pat Buchanan fan, in fact. There are some conservative points he makes, but they are not consistent.

723 Jeff S.  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:17:42pm

Mike Savage, not unpredictably, on the air now spouting off that "McCain is intentionally throwing the election".

724 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:17:47pm

re: #721 Dr. Shalit

"raw" -

A guy who IS GOOD in what he does, has done a LOT - AND - NOT QUITE as good as "Dr. Levin" - The Great one.

-S-

Yes, Levin is a great conservative - good friends with Rush. Have never heard him say anything off principle.

725 silversmith  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:17:57pm

re: #709 auldtrafford

I know all about that. I don't like religion. It is like someone Peeing my Happy Meal (tm) If they could have a religion where science and logic were supreme I would be ok with that.

Try to see my words and not try to make them fit your mindset, and I will try to listen to your words like the words of a friend.

As a conservative, I want someone way better than either side is offering. I will not vote against Roe Vrs Wade and I want to vote for the best Defense for our country. I believe in facts you can prove...every thing else is opinion.

Whether you like it or not, some people have opinions.

I am just experssing mine.

[Link: members.fortunecity.com...]

Go Lou!

726 Moe Katz  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:18:06pm

re: #696 Maximu§

Yeah, I think of myself as a moderate conservative...I don't like crazy people on the left or crazy ones on the right.

My rule of thumb: as long as there are significant numbers of people to the right of you on a few major issues you're a moderate.

727 LeePro  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:18:13pm

re: #652 NY Nana

Same to you and yours, Pvt. ;)

Here is a very happy 2 year old! Can't believe he is 2 already!

What a precious jewel you have there! ! !
Adorable!

728 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:19:44pm

re: #723 Jeff S.

I agree. Until just the last couple weeks, I'd have said McCain had succeeded in handing the White House to Obama. He may now be blowing it ...

729 Archimedes  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:20:51pm

re: #604 vapig

What should be pointed out that we have two non-lawyers running against two lawyers.

That should do it.

99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.

730 jwb7605  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:20:53pm

re: #583 Pvt Bin Jammin


re: #548 DesertSage

We did it Lee!

You and Killian and I were pushing really hard for Palin on the late night threads. I think the McCain staff were reading them! It worked.

We did it! :')

Thanks guys!
McCain/Palin '08!
Thanks guys!
McCain/Palin '08!

I would like to think I accidentally helped out a bit, too.
Got accused of having a "thing", plead guilty, and defended her.

If you guys(?) were the ones, though, my had is off to you.

731 silversmith  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:21:42pm

re: #728 auldtrafford

I was for Leiberman as a choice, but I can see the wisdom of this choice. Time will tell.

732 Archimedes  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:21:52pm

re: #622 Salamantis

They'll probaby try the Paula Jones rednecked hillbilly trailer trash label first.

She's way too intelligent and cool for that.

733 LSD  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:23:47pm

re: #656 Cognito

Ah, $120K is pretty hefty, for a 'blue collar' job.

Alaska Crabboat deck hands make well over $100,000 per year

734 jwb7605  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:23:52pm

re: #728 auldtrafford

I agree. Until just the last couple weeks, I'd have said McCain had succeeded in handing the White House to Obama. He may now be blowing it ...

Michael Savage is a tool.
Give this 10 days (until the week after the convention).
Maybe he'll be the correct tool. I doubt that, though.

735 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:24:20pm

re: #725 silversmith

Well, you said you were getting ready to vote for the other side (if McCain started on religion); just wondered if you knew what you were planning to vote for ...

I'm with you - not sold on either McCain or religion. But I won't vote for Obama.

Now, I'm tempted to vote for Palin; I like her. She may be religious, but as one who is not crazy about religion, I don't see where her being religious is going to hurt anybody. And she's very sharp on the rest of it - a solid conservative.

But I won't vote for Obama.

736 pingjockey  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:24:28pm

re: #733 LSD
Yep, and the do it the old fashioned way, they earn it!

737 Bobibutu  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:26:17pm

re: #656 Cognito

Ah, $120K is pretty hefty, for a 'blue collar' job.

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying it doesn't happen often.

You obviously know jack about the oil patch.

738 auldtrafford  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:26:38pm

re: #731 silversmith

I was for Leiberman as a choice, but I can see the wisdom of this choice. Time will tell.

Choice for what? Joe's a good guy, and doesn't fall for a lot of the leftist crap.

But he's no conservative. I would not vote for that ticket.

739 Basho  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:26:56pm

re: #140 Piglet-U93

So, has science advanced enough to be able to create life from lifelessness? Has science even observed life being created from lifelessness?

I do not know of any, references anyone?

Sure, I believe life evolves but what made it start? A pure accident?
If the human race lives long enough (without a serious setback) it might even prove (part of) evolution - be able to define how life acquires or losses attributes over time.

Nevertheless, the initiation of life is beyond science at this point in time and may still be unanswered for eons.

Well, scientists have brought back extinct viruses by reassembling their genetic parts. Sure it's not technically alive, but it's a start and advances are constantly made.

And no. I don't know of any scientist who thinks life came about through an "accident" anymore than thinking the formation of the Earth was an "accident".

740 silversmith  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:28:19pm

re: #733 LSD

I turned down a job in Fairbanks that paid 50 grand a year. That would have paid the rent and not much left over after food and energy and that was years ago. Do you know what things cost in Alaska? Everything has to be shipped there. Those folks waste nothing.

741 jcm  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:28:27pm

re: #736 pingjockey

Yep, and the do it the old fashioned way, they earn it!

Hey, Ping!

How's life on the dry side?

742 silversmith  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:29:03pm

re: #738 auldtrafford

now you don't have to

743 calcajun  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:29:08pm

re: #729 Archimedes

99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.

I'm a lawyer and I approve this message.

744 Archimedes  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:30:13pm

re: #696 Maximu§

Yeah, I think of myself as a moderate conservative...I don't like crazy people on the left or crazy ones on the right.

I'm a radical for capitalism and individual rights and I believe in following reason on principle. I don't define my positions wrt others, I define it wrt reality.

The reason I say this is because it keeps me well grounded in reality, and the people around me can go in any funny direction. What is important about that is that reality can not be avoided. It's the constant we always have to deal with.

745 Archimedes  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:31:07pm

re: #743 calcajun

I'm a lawyer and I approve this message.

lol ... It's a Steven Wright joke, btw.

746 Maui Girl  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:32:00pm

re: #636 MandyManners

Has America ever had non-attorneys as both president and vice-president?

That's gotta be a win-win situation with a lot of people!

747 Scorch  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:35:23pm

re: #710 Thanos

Thank you. My parents used to travel there during the 70's and they always talked about the marijuana growing in peoples yards.

748 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:36:11pm

re: #556 Piglet-U93

The "soup to cell" theory is then not part of the set of evolution principles?

That's part of the OOL set.

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30557

There are radicals even in the Darwinian camp -> [Link: news.bio-medicine.org...]

Yep; that is genuine scientific controversy, that will, whether subsequently supported or contradicted by subsequent empirical evidence obtained through experiemntal investigation of the heterodox position, result in a genuine increase in scientific knowledge - as opposed to the obfuscatory pseudoscientific claptrap that the Disco Institute and the Institute for Creation Research vomit up.

749 silversmith  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:36:21pm

re: #735 auldtrafford
I dislike the concept of voting for someone I suspect of being a total Troll, thus I will probably vote for McCain.

THis is a poem Ms. Palin has probably read. She would know the danger of too much religion.

[Link: writing2.richmond.edu...]

Alaskans have a way of looking at things.

750 silversmith  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:39:14pm

everyone busy reading?

751 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:42:42pm

re: #597 buzzsawmonkey

Hmph. Maybe your ancestors were common, but mine...

/sarc

Go far enough back, and the ancestors of monkeys and mantises are the same

/waaay back...;~)

752 Fat Jolly Penguin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:44:31pm

re: #708 Geepers

bitterhop (#700),

Stopped by after the kos link?

Looks like it stopped by, dropped a steaming heap, and took off. It's not logged in anymore.

Though if you are still reading, bitter, feel free to back up what you were saying.

753 Ojoe  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:44:55pm

re: #717 Piglet-U93

He has become insufferable, this M.Savage.

Too negative, bad for you spiritually to listen much to him,

If I were an Abbot I'd advise my monks not to tune him in very much.

754 Basho  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 4:47:40pm

re: #748 Salamantis

Yep; that is genuine scientific controversy, that will, whether subsequently supported or contradicted by subsequent empirical evidence obtained through experiemntal investigation of the heterodox position, result in a genuine increase in scientific knowledge - as opposed to the obfuscatory pseudoscientific claptrap that the Disco Institute and the Institute for Creation Research vomit up.

This deserves repeating.

These pseudoscientific movements due absolutely nothing to advance knowledge. All they do is drain money, time, and resources that doesn't benefit anybody except charlatans. Worst of all, they actively block actual progress.

755 Hankmeister  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:03:22pm

I've been meaning to post with respect to the issue of evolution. But first I'd like to congratulate John McCain on making a difficult choice for his VP and it looks like Sarah Palin could bear great fruit in the Republicans retaining the White House. Hopefully it might even spillover into other closely contested Congressional races as more conservatives and crossovers are energized by this ticket.

Second, the fact of the matter is those who hold to macro-evolutionary thought are themselves "creationists." Maybe it's a question of semantics, but something created the Cosmos and everything in it. Whether through some membrane interaction vis a vis the latest String Theory, through completely random chance evolution or through a transcendent God who got the evolutionary ball rolling in this part of the universe, the Cosmos was "created."

When I was a young man about thirty years ago, I was completely steeped in the latest evolutionary thought of that day. I guess at some level I always believed there was some kind of creative intelligence behind evolution but I often toyed with the belief that somehow life, or the rudiments of what we define as life, may have spontaneous arisen from inanimate matter - that is, by complete random chance and as a result of some intrinsic property of matter or the Cosmos itself there was an impersonal force which causes the organic material world to coalesce itself into ever higher forms of complexity.

Having believed this way through most of college I began to see cracks in macro-evolutionary thought, at least the blind chance macro-evolutionary thought. Sure there were genetic variations within species which conserved them, but to me the fossil record spoke of extinction of those species instead of some magical "evolution" which created novel kinds and species of flora and fauna. Unfortunately the fossil record was (in that day) and still is so bereft of any real transitional sequences anywhere and everywhere in the world between the various kinds of animals (horses, pigs, cows, birds, etc) that there must be some kind of fundamental misunderstanding of what the fossil record is really speaking.

I also wondered why it is that a T-Rex in America is pretty much like a T-Rex in South America or a T-Rex in Africa and so on. One would think, given the incredible opportunities to entomb animals at various stages of their evolution though out the entire world over tens if not hundreds of millions of years, why aren't T-Rex more different from one another - other than that which can be accounted for on an individual-by-individual basis. It's my understanding this is true with just about any kind of animal or plant fossil found in the record. That is, why don't we find a T-Rex Mark I in America, a T-Rex Mark XV and a Mark XX in South America and T-Rex Mark XXX through T-Rex Mark L in Africa which then completes the transition to a T-Rex Mark Novel life-form in Middle Europe? One would think given all the infinite possibilities on the planet Earth over hundreds of millions of years there would have been at least one indisputable fossil record from around the world of one kind of animal/dinosaur/bird distinctly transitioning into a novel form of life. But it simply isn't there.

Personally, I perceive there is some design aspect to the Universe (a painting speaks of a Painter, an automobile speaks of a builder, a house speaks of a master craftsman, etc), there has to be some kind of Master Designer - be it an impersonal force or a personal transcendent Deity. Having said that, I'm completely open to the idea that macro-evolutionary theory may in fact be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt within my lifetime and if so, then I would have no problem going back to the beliefs I held as a young man that evolution was merely a tool that a Master Designer used to create the wonderful, complex, and finely balanced universe in which we live. So you see, I don't have an ideological stake for or against evolutionary thought, but I still have grave doubts about evolutionary theory/materialism.

756 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:05:12pm

re: #640 Amillennialist

The only important points of contention between atheistic naturalism and special creation are abiogenesis and vertical speciation by natural processes only.

There is no empirical (observable) evidence for abiogenesis, which is why Darwinists (here, at least) like to avoid the topic.

Evolutionary theory doesn't address abiogenesis; that is addressed by origins of life theory.

To assume that since microevolution and lateral speciation occur naturally, vertical speciation does too, when -- as Salamantis admits -- no one can observe it, is bad logic.

Nope, it isn't; not when artifactual retroviral DNA sequence evidence exists for it. Just like it is reasonable to conclude that the earth is 4.6 billion years old, although no one was around to see it form, because we have radiometric dating evidence. Just as it is also reasonable to conclude that when X's blood is on Y's clothes, that Y killed X, even if no one witnessed the deed.

Concluding from similarities between organisms a chain of descent without observing such a phenomenon occur is also bad science.

When those similarities are GENETIC similarities, it is superb and excellent science.

Consider that after tens of thousands of generations, Lenski's E. coli evolved into . . . E. coli, not multicellular organisms.

They evolved into the bacterial equivalent of humans evolving lizard skin able to absorb and metabolize strychnine. There are many different species of single celled organisms. Just because they're single-celled, doesn't mean they're the same species.

On the other hand, we do know that:

-Life only arises from Life and Life's programs,

"Programs' is a baggage-laden term. Genetic templates evolved by means of mutation and natural selection

-No machine arises apart from a designer,
-No program arises apart from a programmer,

Living organisms are neither machines, nor are they intelligently programmed.

-A living cell is a highly-complex, Von Neumann-type metabolic machine, and
-No one has ever observed random, minor genetic mutations in an organism result in newer, more complex program, structure, and function.

That's because people don't live to be millions of years old so they can observe these things in possums and peregrines, but the genetic record of their happening is present in every cell in every organism alive.

Without actual empirical evidence of vertical speciation occurring, to teach it as truth is not Science, it's Science Fiction.

Artifactual retroviral DNA is PRECISELY such empirical evidence.

(Can anyone here offer a substantive and relevant rejoinder to any of the points I raise without engaging in ad hominem attacks or other fallacious arguments?)

These fatally flawed rhetorical and evidence-bereft contentions of yours have already been refuted by me, over and over again, in a past thread, but I'd be more than happy to reprise the performance eleventy-twelve-umpteen times.

BTW: How old do you think the earth is? How old do you think the human race is? Do you believe that some deity independently created all species past and present? If so, how long to you think this deity took to do it, and how long ago did it happen? Where's YOUR theory? And where's YOUR empirical proof in support of it?

757 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:10:52pm

re: #640 Amillennialist

The only important points of contention between atheistic naturalism and special creation are abiogenesis and vertical speciation by natural processes only.

There is no empirical (observable) evidence for abiogenesis, which is why Darwinists (here, at least) like to avoid the topic.

Evolutionary theory doesn't address abiogenesis; that is addressed by origins of life theory.

To assume that since microevolution and lateral speciation occur naturally, vertical speciation does too, when -- as Salamantis admits -- no one can observe it, is bad logic.

Nope, it isn't; not when artifactual retroviral DNA sequence evidence exists for it. Just like it is reasonable to conclude that the earth is 4.6 billion years old, although no one was around to see it form, because we have radiometric dating evidence. Just as it is also reasonable to conclude that when X's blood is on Y's clothes, that Y killed X, even if no one witnessed the deed.

Concluding from similarities between organisms a chain of descent without observing such a phenomenon occur is also bad science.

When those similarities are GENETIC similarities, it is superb and excellent science.

Consider that after tens of thousands of generations, Lenski's E. coli evolved into . . . E. coli, not multicellular organisms.

They evolved into the bacterial equivalent of humans evolving lizard skin able to absorb and metabolize strychnine. There are many different species of single celled organisms. Just because they're single-celled, doesn't mean they're the same species.

On the other hand, we do know that:

-Life only arises from Life and Life's programs,

"Programs' is a baggage-laden term. Genetic templates evolved by means of mutation and natural selection

-No machine arises apart from a designer,
-No program arises apart from a programmer,

Living organisms are neither machines, nor are they intelligently programmed.

-A living cell is a highly-complex, Von Neumann-type metabolic machine, and
-No one has ever observed random, minor genetic mutations in an organism result in newer, more complex program, structure, and function.

That's because people don't live to be millions of years old so they can observe these things in possums and peregrines, but the genetic record of their happening is present in every cell in every organism alive.

Without actual empirical evidence of vertical speciation occurring, to teach it as truth is not Science, it's Science Fiction.

Artifactual retroviral DNA is PRECISELY such empirical evidence.

(Can anyone here offer a substantive and relevant rejoinder to any of the points I raise without engaging in ad hominem attacks or other fallacious arguments?)

These fatally flawed rhetorical and evidence-bereft contentions of yours have already been refuted by me, over and over again, in a past thread, but I'd be more than happy to reprise the performance eleventy-twelve-umpteen times.

BTW: How old do you think the earth is? How old do you think the human race is? Do you believe that some deity independently created all species past and present? If so, how long to you think this deity took to do it, and how long ago did it happen? Where's YOUR theory? And where's YOUR empirical proof in support of it?

758 Trippin  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:11:20pm

If that is the full extent of her thoughts on the subject of creationism then honestly there is nothing to be freaked out about here. I for one think creationism stinks, but I am supportive of the idea that kids are told about it, and educated on what it means and what it represents, NOT as a means to sway them towards adopting it's philosophies, but simply to EDUCATE them on the various theories out there. To me, that is the academically honest thing to do.

759 MikeG  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:21:06pm

Her position on creationism is fairly mainstream according to popular polls that can be randomly googled. I'm not sure why anyone would consider her position to be a negative.

760 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:22:13pm

re: #612 DistantThunder

Joseph Smith offered himself up for arrest along with his brother when he was falsely accused of crime. A drooling, drunken mob of a 100 men, most with their faces blackened, stormed the jail where he, and two other friends were being held, and Joseph was shot and murdered in cold blood.

Earlier in the day he had written to his wife:

On the morning of June 27, 1844, while at Carthage Jail, Joseph wrote a letter to his wife, Emma, "I am very much resigned to my lot, knowing I am justified, and have done the best that could be done. Give my love to the children and all my friends ... May God bless you all"

The state of Missouri had issued an "extermination order" on all Mormons. men women and children, as the state was attempting to remain a slave state, and the Mormons were anti-slave voters with a fast growing immigrant population.

I hesitate to continue this, as it is indeed a digression at this point, but facts should be corrected where possible.

I was incorrect earlier suggesting that it was as a result of an improper dalliance that he was killed (although he had plenty of those). My memory is not always what it should be.

Upon looking it up again;

He was indeed killed by a mob, when being held in a jail to which he had surrendered after being persuaded to do so by his followers who had been threatened with severe consequences if he did not, and he had been threatened of being perceived by his own as a coward if he did not return. The crime of the moment was the burning and destruction of the town's newspaper by his followers, because it had been critical of him and his attempts to install what amounted to a theocracy in a young and free United States.

The slavery issue is a crock, particularly given the blatantly racist preachings of Smith at that time, which were only "refuted" within my lifetime.

Do you know any black Mormons today?

761 jooly  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:24:45pm

Personally, I think she meant that those who believe in creationism shouldn't be imprisoned, those who mention it in a debate, shouldn't be expelled, cuz that's what I see the evolution extremists wanting to do. Like those who think anyone who doesn't buy into GW needs to go to a re-education camp or prison. For the record, I believe in evolution. But I have never seen a nastier bunch of people than the evolutionists. They act like jackasses.

762 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:26:01pm

re: #698 auldtrafford

Wow - no end of what you can learn here. And you know this because ...? Re-creatable experimentation, perhaps? "No outside"? Have we tried going out there? Is the door locked, or what? How about looking out the window?

Looking out into space is like looking back into time - the time it took that distant light to reach us. We kinow that the Universe is 13.7 billion years old, because that's what the red-shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo background radiation calculates out to, and we can't find any stars out there that have sent light from farther away than that (the stars themselves could be long-dead, but the light they emitted could still be travelling through the Universe at 186000+ miles per second). The Large Hadron Collider might indeed briefly recreate Big Bangish conditions, and it is hoped and expected that empirical evidence derived from perusing the traces left by particle collisions at such high speeds and energies will either support or contradict Garrett Lisi's GUTOE (grand unified theory of everything) involving the most complex mathematical object ever discovered, E8. I figure the door and window remarks were just snark.

763 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:29:04pm

re: #700 bitterhop

For Palin to even suggest that Creationism should be the subject of a meaningful educational debate puts her FIRMLY in the Creationist camp. Soft-pedal or not on this issue, there is clearly a Creationist on the McCain ticket.

Teach the Controversy!

*drink!*

/

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

764 NY Nana  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:29:37pm

re: #711 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Thank you for that...aside from making me cry? Yes, the same thing has happened in areas here. The resistance, at first, by the neighborhood, was fierce.

But the kids who lived in the group homes in time were not only accepted, but loved. In my experience so many years ago, the kids with Down Syndrome are loving. The derision they experienced? They did not return it. They now work, and also are able, in quite a few cases, to live on their own.

This will bring tears to many people...it did it for me.

765 faraway  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:35:54pm

Creationism behind every tree now. Good Lord.

766 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:37:11pm

re: #713 calcajun

Frankly, I kinda see the ID point of view. Look at embryos of various different mammals and at about 3 weeks, they are virtually identical. Then, they develop into different species as they continue to gestate.

There has to be design because of the apparent evidence of laziness in the design. It's like the old days of GM when you couldn't tell a Buick from an Olds until the final trim went on. If life really evolved on a random basis, then you should have all sorts of weirdness on this planet (apart from the French Quarter and the Castro District) instead of mammal embryos coming off the production line.

This is meant to be halfway sarcastic

Well, there are only a few basic shapes that bacteria or paramecium or amoeba can take (rod, disk, sphere, spiral), but the more cells an organism is comprised of, the more possible configurations can, and do, occur.

And bats and puffer fish and platypuses and sloths and ostriches are weird, and different, enough for me - and still all genetically related.

767 hazzyday  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:39:38pm

Palin fights corruption.
Obama thrives with corruption.

768 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:40:13pm
769 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:41:56pm

re: #572 Daddyg

Oops sorry Naso - didn't realize we were double teaming you.

Well you know - no dissenting opinions and all (just kidding) I'll lay off now.

Quadruple teaming, at least by now. I don't mean gratuitous offense and I too was prepared to drop it, but the facts are that Mormonism tolerates no dissent, nor does it have a problem with rewriting its own well independently documented history. There is a lot in common with creationism in that regard, but I can appreciate that if that is all one has been taught, then that must be the truth, for most.

770 Tom Kratman  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:42:08pm

re: #163 Dianna

Hey! Good to see you!

I hope things are a bit better for you?

It's been a hard few months, Dianna. Thanks.

771 Hankmeister  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 5:43:12pm

BTW, scientists will not have truly "created life" until they've done so from completely inert and lifeless matter. Some would even argue that the scientists would have to create the very lifeless matter from nothing. And what exactly is "random"? How does one measure "random" when the measuring process itself can and does influence events.

And if scientists were to "create" (making them a "creator" I suppose) life by means of the classical example of lightning randomly striking a random primordial pool ... it would only scientifically prove it took some intelligent manipulation to create the life. Science would have to record somewhere in the world an actual example of life abiogenically arising as a result of a random set of circumstances.

It's been my experience that most of the "arguments" evolutionary materialists have used to "prove" evolutionary theory are actually tautologies. That is, we know evolution has happened because of what we see in the fossil record ... what we see in the fossil record is a result of evolution ... blah, blah, blah.

The homework that hasn't been done even for the most simplest of proposed transitions of one life-form into a novel life-form or even to document how the eye evolved (yeah, there are some slick videos out there that are little more than one qualified statement piled upon another with a dose of imagination thrown in like a good sleight of hand trick - but no actual observed examples of such a thing ever happening), evolutionary science has yet to document an unbroken chain of micro-evolutionary biological events leading to a macro-evolutionary transition within or between kinds of life-forms.

If random evolution or evolutionary materialism is true, then that means there has to be some property intrinsic to matter itself which somehow organizes itself into ever higher forms of inorganic and then organic complexities until the simplest of life occurs with self-replicating RNA/DNA which then somehow "breeds" true despite being bombarded by the mind-boggling amounts of cosmic radiation which existed back at the time when this "life event" was suppose to have happened ... and that's only the first of a billion trillion quadrillion steps to life as we know it. Can random chance account for that spectacular series of events? I have a hard time BELIEVING it as some people here seem to so readily embrace it. To simply claim "evolution did it" and you and me being here somehow constitutes proof that "evolution did it" ... well, that's once again a tautology which is little different than saying, "God made it that way and that's that".

Where's the indisputable micro-biological evidence of such evolutionary "transitions" and why aren't we seeing, at least in some corner of the planet, novel life-forms arising from long established life-forms. You can irradiate a Tse-Tse fly until you have genetic mutations out the wazoo, but they always remain Tse-Tse flies ... a virus remains a virus ... and an amoeba remains an amoeba. They don't turn into a previously unknown, novel kind of life-form. And no amount clever intellectual manipulation by slickly made videos resting on little more than psuedo-scientific speculation can cover up the fact that the hard evidence for random or even deistic evolution simply isn't there.

Evolutionary thought is essentially as "religious" as "special creationism"/intelligent design thought. Either teach both theories or teach neither one. Don't continue insulting true science by teaching one and excluding the other ... at the present time they're both simply ideologically driven theories.

772 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 6:05:39pm

re: #755 Hankmeister

There have been all kinds of transitional sequences filled out; the transition from water to land, and in the case of whales, the transition back, are but two of them. Horses don't turn into cows or vice-versa; they just evolutionarily diverge from common ancestors. How far back their common ancestor roamed the earth can be discovered by comparing their DNA sequences to ascertain what percentage of their DNA they share, and the artifactual retroviral evidence to find out how long ago a common ancestor was contracting diseases that found their way to being spliced into both their genomes, and when they diverged and began contracting different diseases that found their ways into differing genomes.

Actually, dinosaurs, and other extinct animals, are indeed geography-specific. But we also have to consider that dinosaurs were around for a lot more years than we have been, and we spread everywhere...and there were land connections between the continents then that do not now exist. But we can indeed detect differences within extinct species that depend upon how long ago the specimen died.

The Argument from Design has been refuted so many times in the past century that it's almost pointless to do so again here, but let me just point out that if everything is proclaimed as designed, then one lacks the basis from which to distinguish between designed and non-designed things, and the term loses all meaning. Thus one cannot logically ascend from attribution of design to postulation of a designer; instead, what happens is that the designer is postulated a priori, and then different things are pointed to as possible examples of this postulated designer's handiwork. This is, of course, assuming as a premise what one purports to prove as a conclusion, which is the exact opposite of both empirical science and inductive logic.

773 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 6:17:03pm

re: #771 Hankmeister


Where's the indisputable micro-biological evidence of such evolutionary "transitions" and why aren't we seeing, at least in some corner of the planet, novel life-forms arising from long established life-forms.

Look at any organism, and that is what you see.

774 Hankmeister  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 6:18:43pm

Any person who believes evolution somehow "proves" there is no God has essentially turned the theory of evolution into a theological dogma of hyper-secularism.

I personally would have no difficulty in believing every biological and scientific tenet of evolution and still maintain that it was God's means to produce life in a universe of His transcendent making. The real sticking point is the unproven concept that evolution is a result of completely random processes. The reason I have a problem with this view is simple, it has never been demonstrated that random events can are a result of some intrinsic property of matter which organizes itself into ever higher levels of complexity. There hasn't been one experiment which left to completely random chance that has ever yielded real "building blocks of life" (rudimentary amino acids, self-replicating DNA/RNA sequences, etc.) that in turn randomly assembled themselves into the simplist of life-forms.

In fact, I'd even accept an experiment where a virus or bacteria is forced to generate from inanimate materials in the most conducive of environments that can be designed by an evolutionary scientist. It simply hasn't happened. And its axiomatic that for any scientific corollary or theory to be true it must be reproducible and evolution simply isn't reproducible despite it being one of the biggest "organizing forces" in the universe, according to evolutionary materialists.

One can theorize about ancient virus or bacteria all they want, but until these very simple life-forms can be generated in the lab ex nihilo (okay, let them use pre-existing inanimate matter), the hyperbolic claims by Darwinian fundamentalists are mere speculation, creative speculation though they may be.

Either honestly teach both theories of origins or teach neither. It's the intellectually honest thing to do. Besides, what do evolutionary materialists have to fear, if creationism/intelligent design are truly a joke, students will laugh it out of their minds. Unfortunately for Darwinian fundamentalists, the latest polls have at good 67% of the American population believing either in some form of special creation or deistic evolution. Now it becomes apparent why ardent evolutionary materialists want a further monopoly on plying their scientifically unproven theory in the classroom. Why the angst? Afraid of some competition. Aren't conservatives suppose to believe competition is good? Maybe more progress will be made in evolutionary thought if it's being pushed by IDers and special creationists. So teach both or teach neither one until either theory is truly state of the art and has irrefutable evidence on its side. You simply can't ignore the shortcomings of evolutionary thought by ignoring the very valid questions raised by those not yet convinced of Darwinian fundamentalism.

Until macro-evolutionary theory becomes a bona fide science, I'll continue to believe whether directly or indirectly, there is a directed intelligence behind the design of the Universe. If evolution is proven beyond a reasonable doubt, I would have no problem in believing in a physical mechanism by which a Creator used that can be measured and catalogue with a high degree of confidence. Given that the Bible is replete with examples of transcendent God using natural phenomenon to achieve, Christians could have been better served immediately embracing evolutionary though as proof of the creative process. But I have a feeling that if the book of Genesis (which could metaphorically accomodate an evolutionary process) had started out, "In the beginning, there was nothing, and then a flash of light and a big bang occurred ... then lightning struck a muddy pool and then there was life ..." - agnostics and atheists would have laughed the whole incredible story away and embraced some other theory of origins.

775 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 6:25:59pm

re: #771 Hankmeister

Whether or not scientist create life from scratch in the lab has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it sponstaneously arose on this planet, aside from possibly showing how it might have occurred if the chemicals and conditions obtaining at the time are replicated.

We do indeed know from the fossil record that changes of species from tinier simpler forms to larger and more complex forms has occurred throughout the last few billion years, and that's the definition of evolution. We can also note a chronological progression in these changes. Evolutionary theory addresses the means by which these changes occurred - random mutation of organisms, subsequently selected for or against by nonrandom environmental selection, with those mutations that are more advantageous resulting in an increased degree of survival and reproduction of their hosts.

The different stages of the evolution of the eye all still exist in living organisms that did not undergo environmental selection pressures to evolve their vision further. And it evolved along several different yet similar tracks, in several different lines of organisms. This is called evolutionary convergence.

The whole idea behind OOL theory is the evolution from lower copying fidelity to higher (but not perfect) copying fidelity. Of course, higher copying fidelity would be selected for because it could produce more true copies of itself. But an organism with perfect copying fidelity not allowing of mutation would become extinct when faced with a hostile environmental change. Remember; the organism mutations are random, but the environmental selection is nonrandom, so the 'random chance' canard is not only slanderous but false.

The difference between religion and science is the difference between the presence and the absence of empirical evidence that supports or contradicts a contention, that is, the difference between testability and untestability. Religion has only bluntly asserted dogmas, and when one empirically tests their literally-read creation myths, they are conclusively refuted; the myth that some deity created the world and everything in it in the space of a week 6000 years ago, and all species independently and as is, is conclusively falsified by radiometric dating and artifactual retroviral DNA evidence, because it made the mistake of straying out of the religious domain into the empirically testable arena.

776 Hankmeister  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 6:37:14pm

Naso Tang ... YOU ENGAGE IN A TAUTOLOGY! Think about it. You're saying it is that way because it evolved that way. Precisely how did it randomly "evolve" that way? What are the demonstrable micro-biological steps which you can prove randomly occurred which got the organism to its present state of being? Or maybe you're a deistic evolutionist, but then you still have the problem of demonstrating how God did it through evolution.

That's essentially the thrust of Michael Behe's argument that you and others conveniently ignore. Did you know Behe is an evolutionist - though he may be a deistic evolutionist now? He's not a special creationist. Behe believes that Darwinian evolutionists have presumed far too much and haven't done their homework in unraveling the necessary RANDOM MICRO-BIOLOGICAL PROCESSES which are supposedly responsible for life-forms transitioning into a novel life-form. Simply hiding behind the "millions of years are needed" argument leaves a bad taste in my and a lot of other people's mouths. True science demands that a process be repeatable and OBSERVABLE. And isn't it interesting that the proposed process of evolution is not observable and neither is it repeatable. As someone who is college-trained in the cosmological/astronomical sciences I have real issues with the idea that the universe, and hence, evolution, are a result of completely random "processes" and "forces".

Though it is outside my sphere of higher education, it's my understanding micro-evolutionary adaptations have not proven to result in macro-evolution transitions despite the insistence by those who simply wish it were so. One would think with the intensive animal husbandy that has been engaged in by humankind over the last ten thousand years of recorded history, at least one example of a novel kind lifeform that isn't sterile would have been produced. Surely ten thousand years of intelligent manipulation could accomplish what a billion years of random evolution is purportedly supposed to have wrought.

Again, I would completely comfortable from a theological and ideological POV to embrace evolution as a legitimate creative mechanism. There's nothing in my education or upbringing that would keep be from believing evolution is a true science ... except for the fact Darwinian fundamentalists have yet to truly prove their case. We may all die and our children may all die before the definitive science of origins becomes an irrefutable fact for the vast majority of people. Something to think about.

777 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 6:50:04pm

re: #776 Hankmeister

Naso Tang ... YOU ENGAGE IN A TAUTOLOGY!

No, you asked a question which is answered by the facts, yet you cannot see it, presumably because you think in small time intervals.


Think about it. You're saying it is that way because it evolved that way.

That is what the evidence shows. Presumably you are sitting at a keyboard typing, because the evidence suggests that.


Precisely how did it randomly "evolve" that way?

Why don't you simply ask for an explanation of evolution?

What are the demonstrable micro-biological steps which you can prove randomly occurred which got the organism to its present state of being?

Why don't you simply ask for an explanation of the evidence for evolution, staring at page one?


Or maybe you're a deistic evolutionist, but then you still have the problem of demonstrating how God did it through evolution.

If I were a deistic evolutionist I wouldn't really have to bother about such questions, since if I couldn't see all the answers I would simply assume that god was smart enough to know, and that would be good enough for me.

778 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 6:50:28pm

re: #774 Hankmeister

Evolutionary theory does not have anything to say one way or another about whether or not a deity exists; it merely has not found any necessity to resort to a deity in order to explain how life has evolved and speciated from ancient beginnings to the diversity we see today. And in fact to do so would render it nonscience, as it would have postulated something unobervable and untestable and wholly outside the empirical realm.

As I said before, whether or not laboratory life is created from scratch or not has no bearing on how life originally arose, as creationist would still maintain that such life was designed, and it is unlikely that it would happen again, as already-present life has already filled the available ecological niches.

Creationism is not a scientific theory, as it has no credible empirical evidence with which to back up its contentions, while mountains of evidence in favor of evolution have been amassed, with no empirical evidence whatsoever contradicting it. Science is also not amenable to a popularity contest. The earth was not once flat and changed into spherical because people's concepts changed, nor did the sun originally revolve around it only to have this situation reversed because of a change in popular public opinion.

IDers and special creationists have no empirical evidence with which they can push evolution; all they have are rhetorical sophistries pushed by a sectarian dogmatic religious agenda. If they truly want to challenge evolutionary theory, they can begin by proposing their own and presenting empirical evidence to buttress their contentions, but this they have been unable to do. Fundamentalism is a belief in the litral reading of ancient metaphorical texts; to accuse evolutionary theory of fundamentalism is a failed and futile attempt to drag the theory down to their empirical-evidence-bereft level, since they are unable to rise to its empirical-evidence-supported plateau.

You need to peruse the evidence for divergent speciation that is presented by the artifactual retroviral DNA evidence that wasn't around when you were in school:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

779 Hankmeister  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 6:59:43pm

Salamantis, you merely regurgitate the litany of Darwinian fundamentalism. You're faith in random macro-evolutionary theory is far far greater than my faith in a Creator God. I applaud you for your great faith and your wonderful ability to recite the evolutionary boilerplate that I had to learn as a young man thirty years ago. Unfortunately, most evolutionary scientists are not the Sherlock Holmes you think them to be and evolutionary "science" is littered with outright hoaxes, honest mistakes, and an imperfect understanding of a fossil record which is acknowledge to be incomplete and lacking in the necessary transitional sequences that one would expect to be there if random or deistic evolution is true.

Don't take my word for it. Evolutionist R.H. Peters in his "Tautology in Evolution and Ecology" Vol. 110 1976, honestly admitted, "I argue that the ‘theory of evolution’ does not take predictions, so far as ecology is concerned, but is instead a logical formula which can be used only to classify empiricisms [theories] and to show the relationships which such a classification implies . . these theories are actually tautologies and, as such, cannot make empirically testable predictions. They are not scientific theories at all."

Dr. W.R. Thompson, noted entomologist and evolutionist (probably a deistic evolutionist) in 1960, gave this statement to the Journal of the American Affiliation, "Modern Darwinian paleontologists are obliged, just like their predecessors and like Darwin, to water down the facts with subsidiary hypotheses, which, however plausible, are in the nature of things unverifiable . . and the reader is left with the feeling that if the data do not support the theory they really ought to . . This situation, where scientific men rally to the defense of a doctrine they are unable to define scientifically, much less demonstrate with scientific rigor, attempting to maintain its credit with the public by the suppression of criticism and the elimination of difficulties, is abnormal and undesirable in science."

I think what Dr. Thompson noted was both prescient and applicable to our discussion today. Really, less strident dogmatism from the naturalistic/materialistic evolution side of the aisle here at Littlegreenfootballs would probably generate far more light than smoke.

780 jaunte  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 7:02:43pm

re: #779 Hankmeister

I've yet to see anyone arguing with Salamantis who has been able to answer this:
"If they truly want to challenge evolutionary theory, they can begin by proposing their own and presenting empirical evidence to buttress their contentions.."

781 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 7:05:21pm

re: #776 Hankmeister

Michael Behe's irreducable complexity contention has been conclusively refuted by Ken Miller, among many others, who demonstrated that the complexities of the eye and the flagellum were indeed reducable to useful and evolvable components.

The fact remains that no one has been around for millions of years in order to witness the slow process by which the environment cumulitively selects concatenations of reproductively advantageous mutations. No one was around to witness a deity breathing life into millions of species independently of each other, either, including those who wrote the book that asserts it, unless you take Genesis literally, in which case the city of Jericho was already populated before the earth and all that was in it was created that week 6000 years ago. If you are truly trained in cosmology, you have to acknowledge the empirical evidence that the universe is 13.7 billion years old, the earth is 4.6 billion years old, and life first appeared here more than 3 billion years ago.

If the benchmark of speciation is the inability to produce fertile offspring, that has indeed been achieved, both with lenski's e. coli and with fruit fly populations. But none of this matters to the (un)true believer; they will continue to embrace their chosen myths - or rather the myths that chose them from childhood indoctrination - because they have invested their sense of self-worth in their truth.

Empirical science does not proffer its theories as absolutely proven, for that would forefend any possibility of subsequent data permitting improvements upon them. However, the basics of evolutionary theory - random mutation, nonrandom environmental selection - are so well established empirically that the difference between their degree of probability and statistical certainty is vanishingly small.

782 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 7:18:17pm

re: #779 Hankmeister

You do not seem to register the essential difference between faith and knowledge; faith inheres in the absence of evidence, while knowledge inheres in its prsence. I accept evolutionary theory because I have perused the empirical evidence that supports it, and find it to be compelling. I have yet to be presented with any empirical evidence whatsoever that contradicts it.

Scientists do occassionally make mistakes or perpetrate frauds, but other scienctist expose or correct them; that is the way science works, unlike religion, which is dogmatically superglued to millennia-old contentions. And the fossil record is further fleshed out every day - but for every transitional fossil found, die-hard creationists see two smaller gaps created in the space of the one it filled - one to each side of it.

The case against evolution lost the moment that Watson & Crick, searching for the mechanism that had to exist in order for the Darwin-Mendel thesis to be empirically verifiable, isolated the material substrate DNA that underlies the retention and transmission of traits found in various species. It was further discredited, if that were possible, when artifactual retroviral DNA was discovered, and provided and externally originating corroboration of the common ancestry that can be seen from comparing the genomes in their totality. These discoveries have generated not heat, but light, and have served to dispel many dark age myths concerning celestial nostril-breathing a few millennia ago. Quote-mining will not avail against such sound, vanid and solid empirical evidence, which can be checked and rechecked at will.

783 Salamantis  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 7:19:46pm

Umm...VALID and solid...PIMF

784 code red 21  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 7:27:02pm

re: #164 Salem

The Republicans should throw the one-issue flat-earther evangelical idiots overboard to the sharks if it wants to move forward into the future. Simple as that.

What is your problem?

785 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 7:37:08pm

re: #779 Hankmeister

Salamantis, you merely regurgitate the litany of Darwinian fundamentalism. You're faith in random macro-evolutionary theory is far far greater than my faith in a Creator God. I applaud you for your great faith and your wonderful ability to recite the evolutionary boilerplate that I had to learn as a young man thirty years ago. Unfortunately, most evolutionary scientists are not the Sherlock Holmes you think them to be and evolutionary "science" is littered with outright hoaxes, honest mistakes, and an imperfect understanding of a fossil record which is acknowledge to be incomplete and lacking in the necessary transitional sequences that one would expect to be there if random or deistic evolution is true.

You do not seem to recognize that whether thirty years ago or today, you understand nothing. The fact that you do not see what you "expect" is the antitheses of science, which is the ability to see that which is not expected.

786 Purple Prose  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 7:40:26pm

The discourse of the day has made political semaphores out of words. Creationism, as in ultimately everything was created by God, is completely compatible with evolution, as Francis Collins and many others have articulated. It is rather creationism as a political ideology that is rooted in a naive biblical literalism that is not compatible with scientific observation. It does not appear that Palin is an ideological biblical literalist, so any argument against her sense of reason based on this should be countered with this important distinction.

787 Naso Tang  Fri, Aug 29, 2008 7:50:42pm