LGF

more options

  

Advertisement

Turkey Bans Richard Dawkins' Web Site

Science | Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 1:29:21 pm PDT

The Turkish crackpot creationist known as Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar) has actually succeeded in getting a court order to block Turkey’s access to the web site of British biologist Richard Dawkins.

Ankara - Turkish internet users have been blocked via a court order from accessing the site of prominent British biologist Richard Dawkins after complaints from lawyers for Islamic creationist author Adnan Oktar, the website of Turkish television station NTV reported on Wednesday.

A court in Istanbul ordered that Turk Telekom block access to the site and since the weekend Turkish internet users seeking the site have been redirected to a page that says in Turkish ‘access to this site has been suspended in accordance with a court decision’.

NTV reported that Oktar complained he and his creationist book ‘Atlas of Creation’ had been defamed by comments made by Dawkins on the site.

‘I am at a loss to reconcile the expensive and glossy production values of this book with the breathtaking inanity of the content,’ Dawkins, a distinguished advocate of the theory of evolution, wrote on his website in July referring to the Atlas of Creation.

Dawkins’ exposé of the Atlas of Creation is absolutely brutal; you can see why the Yahya gang wants to prevent Turks from reading it: Venomous Snakes, Slippery Eels and Harun Yahya.

On page 244, Yahya wishes to say that caddis flies have not changed since some 25-million-year-old insects preserved in amber. Once again, the caption:

These living things have survived for millions of years without the slightest change in their structures. The fact that these insects never changed is a sign that they never evolved.
By now, we have come to expect something pretty good when we look at the photograph of the modern animal. What will the modern ‘caddis fly’ be? A minnow, perhaps? A garden slug? A king prawn? No, in a way is better than any of these: A fishing lure, complete with prominent steel hook!

I am at a loss to reconcile the expensive and glossy production values of this book with the “breathtaking inanity” of the content . Is it really inanity, or is it just plain laziness – or perhaps cynical awareness of the ignorance and stupidity of the target audience – mostly Muslim creationists. And where does the money come from?

Advertisement

170 comments

  • Comments are open and unmoderated, and do not necessarily reflect the views of Little Green Footballs.
  • Obscene, abusive, silly, or annoying remarks may be deleted, but the fact that particular comments remain on the site in no way constitutes an endorsement of their views by Little Green Footballs.
  • Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!"
  • Comments that advocate violence will be cause for immediate banning with no appeal.
  • Disagreement and debate are welcome, but insults and abuse are not, and may cause your account to be blocked.
  • REMEMBER: posting comments at LGF is a privilege, not a right. Abuse that privilege, and your account will be blocked.

Hide comments | Jump to bottom

1 noshariaincanada  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:31:08pm

banned?

as in Haram?

2 Cap'n DOC  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:31:11pm

Who is Richard Dawkins?

/Am I that illiterate?

3 bosforus  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:32:00pm
NTV reported that Oktar complained he and his creationist book ‘Atlas of Creation’ had been defamed by comments made by Dawkins on the site.

If that's all it takes to get my website banned in Turkey then sign me up!

4 noshariaincanada  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:32:19pm

I can imagine the LGF headlines soon: "Our friends, the Turks".

5 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:33:03pm

Oktar's successes are disturbing...

6 Ward Cleaver  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:34:49pm

I know about Brian Dawkins, of the Philadelphia Eagles.

7 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:34:54pm

Gee, and I thought the Ataturk revolution still lived!

8 wrenchwench  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:35:01pm

From Yahoo to Yahya in one post.

9 Cognito  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:35:11pm

Good move, crackpot. Turkish citizens will now clamor to see the forbidden site.

10 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:35:19pm
NTV reported that Oktar complained he and his creationist book ‘Atlas of Creation’ had been defamed by comments made by Dawkins on the site.

If by "defamed" you mean shown to be flat out wrong, then yes- it was defamed.

11 harrylook  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:35:37pm

As my Armenian friend is known to say, "Effin Turks."

12 Hard Right  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:35:48pm

Turkey has been heading down a scary path as of late.

13 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:36:32pm

Now if the Muslim countries would just ban all sites that discuss nuclear weapons and technology, and missile technology, because those technologies aren't in the Koran, things might improve.
In fact, the Internet isn't in the Koran is it? So how about you guys go back to carrying messages parchment scrolls via camel and donkey?

14 Cap'n DOC  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:36:34pm

Heh. Followed the link. This from the Atlas tome:

...manifesting the creation of God as a fact.

The only thing manifested in that sentence fragment is either a bad translation or an invalid understanding of the Nature of God.

15 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:37:22pm

re: #2 Cap'n DOC

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

16 Kosh's Shadow  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:37:38pm

re: #11 harrylook

As my Armenian friend is known to say, "Effin Turks."

Reminds me of a co-op at a company I worked for years ago; he was part Armenian and part Turkish.

17 yma o hyd  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:38:30pm

re: #13 Kosh's Shadow

Now if the Muslim countries would just ban all sites that discuss nuclear weapons and technology, and missile technology, because those technologies aren't in the Koran, things might improve.
In fact, the Internet isn't in the Koran is it? So how about you guys go back to carrying messages parchment scrolls via camel and donkey?

Yep - and making videos of beheadings and then posting them on the internet ist totally forbidden, according to the Koran.
Oh - and no more lectures with finger-wagging from islamic 'scholars' either!

18 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:38:34pm

It's too bad Dawkins is such a raging moonbat on practically other issues.

19 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:39:11pm

I hope the Turkish Army gets the significance of this.

/looking forward to a putsch? ... Moi?!

20 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:39:33pm

re: #18 Occasional Reader

It's too bad Dawkins is such a raging moonbat on practically other issues.

...on practicall ALL other issues.

(trying to type and phone at same time, very confusing to my primitive brain)

21 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:39:40pm

re: #9 Cognito

Good move, crackpot. Turkish citizens will now clamor to see the forbidden site.

Up-Ding!

22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:40:25pm

re: #19 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I hope the Turkish Army gets the significance of this.

/looking forward to a putsch? ... Moi?!

Islamic though, so no beerhalls

23 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:40:41pm

re: #2 Cap'n DOC

Who is Richard Dawkins?

/Am I that illiterate?

You can read up on him here:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

24 looking closely  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:40:49pm

I suppose Turkey doesn't have an equivalent of the first amendment.

25 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:40:56pm

re: #4 noshariaincanada

I can imagine the LGF headlines soon: "Our friends, the Turks".

Not all.
Just some.

26 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:41:05pm

While I'm not always a fan of Dawkins's religious views, I am rather disturbed that these creeps were able to get Turkey to block access to his website. And what does the Discovery Institute think of this?

27 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:41:23pm

re: #15 scottishbuzzsaw

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Beat me to it!

28 yma o hyd  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:41:34pm

re: #26 Honorary Yooper

While I'm not always a fan of Dawkins's religious views, I am rather disturbed that these creeps were able to get Turkey to block access to his website. And what does the Discovery Institute think of this?

I bet its liking it vey much!

29 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:42:29pm

re: #22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Islamic though, so no beerhalls

Uh, not getting the Munich reference here.

I was referring to the Army as the guardian of secularism.

30 JCM  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:42:33pm
The fossil eel shown may well be an eel, I cannot tell. But the modern "eel" that Yahya pictures (see left) is undoubtedly not an eel but a sea snake, probably of the highly venomous genus Laticauda (an eel is, of course, not a snake at all but a teleost fish). I have not scanned the book for other inaccuracies of this kind. But given that this was almost the first page I looked at . . .

Ouch! BWAHAHAHAHA!

31 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:43:29pm

re: #26 Honorary Yooper

While I'm not always a fan of Dawkins's religious views, I am rather disturbed that these creeps were able to get Turkey to block access to his website. And what does the Discovery Institute think of this?

The article also states that he's had success in blocking millions of blogs...how does one get that kind of result?

32 Cap'n DOC  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:44:07pm

re: #15 scottishbuzzsaw

And apparently, Dawkins doesn't get it either. God works in mysterious ways, although I don't consider at this point in time that evolution is very mysterious. It might have been at one point in time, but to argue that the world was created in six days, or that 'life' as we know it (as a member of the species who can speculate on such things) is only 6,000 years from its awakening is bizarre. To argue against God being the Creator is equally bizarre. IMHO

/very humble - mere mortal

33 Alouette  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:44:11pm

re: #31 scottishbuzzsaw

The article also states that he's had success in blocking millions of blogs...how does one get that kind of result?

Root access?

34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:44:17pm

re: #29 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Uh, not getting the Munich reference here.

I was referring to the Army as the guardian of secularism.

I was referring to the Islamists pushing for more powers and control.

35 davinvalkri  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:45:07pm

Fishing lure = LOL!
Why are these crazies so potentially dangerous, yet so easy to mock?!

36 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:45:34pm

re: #31 scottishbuzzsaw

The article also states that he's had success in blocking millions of blogs...how does one get that kind of result?

Clout.

He has clout with someone who has the ability to block such websites.

37 looking closely  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:46:11pm

re: #31 scottishbuzzsaw

The article also states that he's had success in blocking millions of blogs...how does one get that kind of result?

Through prevarication.

/I also invented the internet.

38 Charles  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:46:35pm

The picture of the caddis fly fishing lure was lifted from this page:

[Link: www.grahamowengallery.com...]

39 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:46:54pm

Here's an article by Richard Dawkins with which most here would wholeheartedly agree:

Religion's Misguided Missiles
Promise a young man that death is not the end and he will willingly cause disaster
[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

Most here would also like this one, from anthropologist Lionel Tiger:

Rogue Males
What makes young Muslim men turn to terrorism? Leaders such as Osama Bin Laden know just how to distil a deadly fuel from their anger, excess energy and religious devotion
[Link: www.guardian.co.uk...]

40 Gang of One  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:47:48pm

re: #35 davinvalkri

Fishing lure = LOL!
Why are these crazies so potentially dangerous, yet so easy to mock?!

Fake but accurate.

/does it throb?

41 Cap'n DOC  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:48:14pm

re: #23 Salamantis

Did.

If I'd be Richard Dawkins, I'd be taking up St. Jude as my patron.

/Patron Saint of lost causes

or St. Philomena - patron of those afflicted with mental illness.

I'd stay away from St. Polycarp. He's the patron of synthetic bottomfeeders.

(That last was just for you).

42 Pullus Iulius  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:48:17pm

That nice man from Hogan's Heroes and Family Feud. He really seems quite intelligent on this subject. Will they ban Match Game, too?

43 looking closely  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:48:55pm

re: #38 Charles

The picture of the caddis fly fishing lure was lifted from this page:

[Link: www.grahamowengallery.com...]

Unbelievable artwork on that page!

44 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:49:01pm

re: #31 scottishbuzzsaw

The article also states that he's had success in blocking millions of blogs...how does one get that kind of result?

He did it in one fell swoop.

In August 2007, Oktar, who writes under the pen name Harun Yahya, convinced a Turkish court to block access to millions of web blogs using the Wordpress.com hosting service after finding that a number of blogs carried libellous comments.

Question is, did he find a local variant of the lunatic Ninth Circuit? My thought's based upon the preceeding paragraph:

... earlier this year when he attempted to have Dawkins' book The God Delusion banned in Turkey on the basis that it was insulting religion but a Turkish court threw the case out.

This says he doesn't always get his way.

45 J.S.  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:50:00pm

re: #22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

(a brief aside) there are, in fact, beerhalls in Turkey (birahane) and they are in deliberate imitation of German beerhalls...

46 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:51:54pm

re: #34 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I was referring to the Islamists pushing for more powers and control.

Ah ha. No, we're on different pages. If Islamists begin to assert control over the Turkish government, the Army steps in. It's a historical pattern there. IIRC, the Army is specifically given the contitutional duty of protecting the secular revolution which Kemal Ataturk lead.

47 HelloDare  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:52:02pm

I always thought Turkey was a dumb name for a country until now.

48 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:53:22pm

re: #43 looking closely

Unbelievable artwork on that page!

Amazing stuff...but the scorpion is just a little too reminiscent of one I met in GA...

49 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:54:37pm

re: #41 Cap'n DOC

Did.

If I'd be Richard Dawkins, I'd be taking up St. Jude as my patron.

/Patron Saint of lost causes

or St. Philomena - patron of those afflicted with mental illness.

I'd stay away from St. Polycarp. He's the patron of synthetic bottomfeeders.

(That last was just for you).

Despite the pious fervor of its detractors, I don't consider the cause of rationality and reason to be lost. If Richard Dawkins is indeed mentally ill, someone should inform the University of Oxford, where, until his recent mandatory retirement due to advanced age, he held for many years the Charles Simonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science.

As for me being a bottomfeeder, I began posting near the top of this thread. Of course, you could mean that I have a habit of plucking the low-hanging fruit of dogmatic irrationalism and refuting it here...;~)

50 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:55:27pm
I am at a loss to reconcile the expensive and glossy production values of this book with the “breathtaking inanity” of the content . Is it really inanity, or is it just plain laziness – or perhaps cynical awareness of the ignorance and stupidity of the target audience – mostly Muslim creationists. And where does the money come from?

That's been my question for quite some time. There always seems to be an infinite flow of money for this crap.

51 Pyrocles  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:55:28pm

I wonder how the Left will attempt to counter the inevitable Islamic Creationist movement, seeing that Islam is a "protected" belief system. In Western countries, especially in Europe, believing Muslims will eventually outnumber believing Christians, leaving Muslims as the leading proponents of Creationism. And Muslims are generally more likely to defend their "truths" with violence.

Will we secular LGF-style Conservatives become the anti-Creationist vanguard, while the Left protects Islamic Creationist beliefs? Hmm...

52 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:55:51pm

re: #38 Charles

The picture of the caddis fly fishing lure was lifted from this page:

[Link: www.grahamowengallery.com...]

Amazingly realistic models he has there.

53 cliffster  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:56:43pm

I have a friend from Turkey who was bragging to me that even though Turkey has the most homogeneous religious makeup (96% Muslim), theirs is a more secular public arena than any of the other Muslim countries. This doesn't sound like it though.

54 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:56:52pm

re: #50 Honorary Yooper

That's been my question for quite some time. There always seems to be an infinite flow of money for this crap.

There's lots of money to be had in illegal trading- drugs, sex, people.... Just a theory, mind you.

55 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:56:59pm

Jive Turkey!

56 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:58:12pm

re: #47 HelloDare

I always thought Turkey was a dumb name for a country until now.

(trivia time) If you had been among the American troops trying to fight their way back down the Korean Peninsula from the Yalu in 1950, after the Red Chinese attacked, you would have loved the Turks.

57 beerdrinking_victorymonkey  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:58:21pm

re: #53 cliffster

I have a friend from Turkey who was bragging to me that even though
Turkey has the most homogeneous religious makeup (96% Muslim), theirs
is a more secular public arena than any of the other Muslim countries.
This doesn't sound like it though.

Based on other muslim countries that's probably true. I think the term is "damning with faint praise."

58 saylorfam  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:58:21pm

Wasn't Richard Dawkins the guy from Family Feud?

59 Outrider  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:58:22pm

re: #46 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Ah ha. No, we're on different pages. If Islamists begin to assert control over the Turkish government, the Army steps in. It's a historical pattern there. IIRC, the Army is specifically given the contitutional duty of protecting the secular revolution which Kemal Ataturk lead.

Correct. Modern Turkey is fighting to remain a secular state under severe attack from Islamic extremists. More so than even Europe.

60 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:58:53pm

re: #53 cliffster

I have a friend from Turkey who was bragging to me that even though Turkey has the most homogeneous religious makeup (96% Muslim), theirs is a more secular public arena than any of the other Muslim countries. This doesn't sound like it though.

There is an ongoing culture war.

61 johnnyreb  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 1:59:54pm

re: #53 cliffster

I have a friend from Turkey who was bragging to me that even though Turkey has the most homogeneous religious makeup (96% Muslim), theirs is a more secular public arena than any of the other Muslim countries. This doesn't sound like it though.

The one and only thing that keeps Turkey away from being a total Muslim state is their military. They are very very close to the edge. If the military becomes weakened in some way, Katy bar the door.

62 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:00:26pm

re: #59 Outrider

Correct. Modern Turkey is fighting to remain a secular state under severe attack from Islamic extremists. More so than even Europe.

And I'm rooting for the Turkish Army.

63 looking closely  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:01:17pm

re: #53 cliffster

I have a friend from Turkey who was bragging to me that even though Turkey has the most homogeneous religious makeup (96% Muslim), theirs is a more secular public arena than any of the other Muslim countries. This doesn't sound like it though.

Its probably true, though in absolute terms, it seems Turkey still has a way to go.

64 deanayer  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:01:51pm

First they came for Richard Dawkins and I didnt say anything, but when they threatened Wink Martindale I lost it !

65 Outrider  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:02:44pm

re: #62 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And I'm rooting for the Turkish Army.

Ballsy group of studs, their Army. Competent and able.

66 johnnyreb  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:02:45pm

re: #64 deanayer

First they came for Richard Dawkins and I didnt say anything, but when they threatened Wink Martindale I lost it !


I thought Richard Dawkins was dead?

67 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:03:02pm
The Turkish crackpot creationist known as Harun Yahya

Hey, Turkey, I done said it before and I'll say it again:

Get Your Yahyas Out

68 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:04:21pm

re: #64 deanayer

First they came for Richard Dawkins and I didnt say anything, but when they threatened Wink Martindale I lost it !

I'm sure that everybody here really knows that the Hogan's heroes guy who MC'd Family Feud is actually named Richard DawSON, not Richard DawKINS. I just thought I'd state it for the record.

69 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:04:57pm

re: #68 Salamantis

I'm sure that everybody here really knows that the Hogan's heroes guy who MC'd Family Feud is actually named Richard DawSON, not Richard DawKINS. I just thought I'd state it for the record.

No, they're the same guy. His name just evolved.

70 mean Gene  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:05:28pm

I'm sure Richard Dawkins could do a bang-up job destroying the gloosy book by Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), but why nit-pic about the choice of a photograph of a caddis fly that happens to be on a fishing hook?
Is his whole deconstruction like that?
I'm going to have to go look when I get some time.

71 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:05:34pm

OT: Across the top of the WSJ homepage, "Wells Fargo and Citigroup have expressed preliminary interest in Washington Mutual, people familiar with the matter say."

72 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:05:58pm

re: #66 johnnyreb

I thought Richard Dawkins was dead?

Only if the prayers of a lot of fundamentalist literalists from several different religions have been answered in the past few days.

73 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:06:31pm

re: #65 Outrider

Ballsy group of studs, their Army. Competent and able.

Heh!
See the link at the end of my #56.
What th' hell, repeated here.

They ran out of ammo, and used the weapons of Chinese they'd killed. They broke out of encirclement by bayonet charge, and brought out their wounded.

74 MrSilverDragon  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:06:42pm

I had no idea Richard Dawson was British!

75 J.S.  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:08:18pm

re: #54 Sharmuta

(just an aside, keep in mind that prostitution in Turkey is completely legal -- the municipalities set up the brothels, it's regulated, etc.)

76 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:09:46pm

re: #65 Outrider

Ballsy group of studs, their Army. Competent and able.

Here's another account of the Turkish Brigade in Korea.

77 Behead Me Bob  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:10:34pm

Could have been worse - could have been a treble hook (3 hooks).

78 johnnyreb  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:11:18pm

re: #68 Salamantis

I'm sure that everybody here really knows that the Hogan's heroes guy who MC'd Family Feud is actually named Richard DawSON, not Richard DawKINS. I just thought I'd state it for the record.


Oh my mistake. And how are Kinchloe and Lebeau doing these days?

79 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:12:03pm
80 Honorary Yooper  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:15:55pm

re: #70 mean Gene

I'm sure Richard Dawkins could do a bang-up job destroying the glossy book by Harun Yahya (Adnan Oktar), but why nit-pic about the choice of a photograph of a caddis fly that happens to be on a fishing hook?
Is his whole deconstruction like that?
I'm going to have to go look when I get some time.

It's a symptom of a larger problem within the glossy book. Yahya is not being honest in many ways, and lifting the picture is just a part of that.

81 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:17:31pm

re: #79 buzzsawmonkey

So one can visit them when one is a mere brothel of a boy?

Mmmm... Turkey broth(el)...

82 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:17:35pm

X

83 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:17:44pm

XX

84 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:17:52pm

XXX

85 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:19:04pm

Please, no X-rated comments. This is a family room.

86 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:19:50pm

re: #84 sngnsgt

XXX


?
? ?
? ? ?

87 winston06  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:20:11pm

Turkey is already overrun by the Jihadists and they have an Islamist govt at the helm.

88 mean Gene  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:20:49pm

Well, I just looked at R. Dawkins whole article (updated) about the book.
It looks like he opened it a few times and found problems on each and every page.
The Turkish guy is only an interior designer why should anyone think he knows one thing about how life got here?
Who's behind this 870 page glossy book being given away for a mere $28 on Amazon?
That's got to be the REAL question.

89 cliffster  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:21:20pm

re: #86 scottishbuzzsaw

x Haploid Female
xx Girl
xxx WTF?!?

90 Sharmuta  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:21:35pm

What we have here is the deep pockets of a creationist using his influence and money to keep his countrymen ignorant and unaware of the fraud he's perpetrating upon them. And the longer the people are kept ignorant, the easier it is for them to be manipulated by the islamists trying to overturn the secular constitution of Turkey. It's a downright shame.

91 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:22:08pm

re: #87 winston06

Turkey is already overrun by the Jihadists and they have an Islamist govt at the helm.

IMHO, the only thing which is restraining the Army from a takeover is that it would doom Turkey's chance of getting admitted to the EU.

92 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:22:52pm

re: #86 scottishbuzzsaw

Richard Dawson on THE FAMILY FUED!
/shows age

93 stevieray  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:23:22pm

re: #87 winston06

Turkey is already overrun by the Jihadists and they have an Islamist govt at the helm.

And Turkey is always highlighted as proof that Islam and modernity are compatible.

/Are you feeling a surge of hope for the future yet?

94 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:24:00pm

re: #92 sngnsgt

Richard Dawson on THE FAMILY FUED!
/shows age

Got it...thanks...

95 cliffster  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:24:51pm

Where is the website banned, in Istanbul, or Constantinople?

96 MandyManners  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:25:26pm

re: #93 stevieray

And Turkey is always highlighted as proof that Islam and modernity are compatible.

/Are you feeling a surge of hope for the future yet?

I thought I was but it's just another freakin' hot flash.

97 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:25:41pm

re: #78 johnnyreb

Oh my mistake. And how are Kinchloe and Lebeau doing these days?

Ivan Dixon III died this year in March.
Robert Clarey is retired and gives lectures on the Holocaust, which he survived, but many of his 13 older siblings did not.

98 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:26:45pm

re: #97 CyanSnowHawk

Oops, that's Robert Clary.

99 turn  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:26:57pm

re: #76 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Here's another account of the Turkish Brigade in Korea.

My father in law fought alongside the Turks in Korea, he said the same thing, those are some bad ass soldiers.

Incidentally he was at the Battle of the Chosin Reservoir and lived to tell about it (which he did very little of actually). He was awarded the bronze star, had a lot of respect for that man MHROP.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I'll be back tomorrow, time to go walk the lab along the American.

100 Rednek  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:27:00pm

Remember the song Time by Pink Floyd?

tick tock tick tock....BONG!

Pink Floyd member Richard Wright dies at age 65

Sad.

101 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:27:14pm

re: #89 cliffster

xxx WTF?!?

Really, REALLY female. Think Jessica Rabbit.

102 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:28:18pm

re: #99 turn

Chosin

whew!
*salute* to your father-in-law

103 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:28:37pm

re: #101 Occasional Reader

Really, REALLY female. Think Jessica Rabbit.

Oh, give her a break...she's not really bad, she's just drawn that way!

104 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:29:14pm

re: #101 Occasional Reader

Really, REALLY female. Think Jessica Rabbit.

I was thinking more Jenna Jameson, but I like your suggestion better.

105 davinvalkri  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:31:22pm

re: #93 stevieray

They're doomed. The whole Islamic world--unless it decides to ditch Islam as its primary identity, it's going to be the laughingstock of the west.
Not that I mind, since the fishing lure made my day.

106 littleoldlady  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:31:52pm

Kewl! Been waiting days to catch a creationist thread so I could post this...

One day, eight-year-old Melissa says to her mother, "Mommy, I've been thinking about us humans and I'm a bit puzzled. How did we first appear on Earth?"

"That's a very good question, darling," her mother replies. "God made Adam and Eve and they had children and then their children had children, and as a result, mankind began."

Later that day, Melissa asks her father the same question. "Daddy, how did we humans first appear on earth?"

"That's an intelligent question, Melissa," he replies. "Millions of years ago there were monkeys from which, gradually, the human race evolved."

Melissa is confused by this answer and goes back to her mother. "Mommy," she asks, "how come you told me the human race was created by God, yet daddy said they developed from monkeys?"

"Well darling," replies her mother, smiling, "the answer is simple. I told you about my side of the family and your father told you about his."

107 sngnsgt  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:33:03pm

re: #106 littleoldlady

LOL!

108 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:35:41pm

re: #103 scottishbuzzsaw

Oh, give her a break...she's not really bad, she's just drawn that way!


Hey Scottish..Just an FYI
I just got home a cracked a cold one..Long freaking day..
How are you doing?
I feel really bad for RealWest..Hope he overcomes his illness.

109 HoosierHoops  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:36:26pm

re: #106 littleoldlady

Oh no you didn't!
LOL

110 Ben Hur  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:36:52pm

Again, if Evolution is Haram, how are Jews the descendants of Apes and Pigs?

111 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:36:55pm
112 MandyManners  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:37:00pm

re: #106 littleoldlady

LOL!

113 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:37:30pm

re: #108 HoosierHoops

Hey Scottish..Just an FYI
I just got home a cracked a cold one..Long freaking day..
How are you doing?
I feel really bad for RealWest..Hope he overcomes his illness.


A cold one sounds good right about now...and if anyone can overcome, it will be RealWest.

114 Ben Hur  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:38:44pm

re: #111 buzzsawmonkey


Freak.

(but in a good way.)

115 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:39:25pm

re: #111 buzzsawmonkey

Good for him. There are a lot of people who need Clary-fication about the Holocaust.

I got that info from imdb. The "where are they now" update is a little old, but likely still accurate.

116 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:40:22pm
117 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:41:35pm

re: #116 taxfreekiller

gee

where the hell did you think steel came from any how?

Crom.

118 Ben Hur  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:41:46pm

You have to admit, the fish hook thing is FUNNY!

119 Ben Hur  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:42:18pm

re: #117 CyanSnowHawk

Crom.

1000 up-dings.

120 Nevergiveup  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:42:33pm

re: #116 taxfreekiller

gee

where the hell did you think steel came from any how?

Theft?

121 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:44:00pm
122 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:44:07pm

re: #119 Ben Hur

1000 up-dings.

And when I die, I will have to stand before him and answer the riddle of steel, or he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me.

123 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:44:16pm
124 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:44:21pm

re: #118 Ben Hur

You have to admit, the fish hook thing is FUNNY!

You're just easily amused, Ben.

125 stevieray  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:44:56pm

re: #105 davinvalkri

They're doomed. The whole Islamic world--unless it decides to ditch Islam as its primary identity, it's going to be the laughingstock of the west.
Not that I mind, since the fishing lure made my day.

Islam, if left to its own devices, is doomed.

The Western world has been propping up the Islamic world for decades now, delaying or canceling the much deserved day of reckoning.

126 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:45:10pm
127 vapig  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:45:17pm

re: #110 Ben Hur

Again, if Evolution is Haram, how are Jews the descendants of Apes and Pigs?

Now, now, now! You know logic has no place in their equation.

128 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:45:38pm

The best wine to serve with anything basted in Turkey brothel is a nice dry, white Bordello.

129 Ben Hur  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:45:46pm

re: #122 CyanSnowHawk

And when I die, I will have to stand before him and answer the riddle of steel, or he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me.


One of my top 10.

I used to train to the soundtrack.

BBL.

130 shug  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:45:50pm
On page 244, Yahya wishes to say that Senate Democrats have not changed since some 25-million-year-old Robert Byrd preserved in amber. Once again, the caption:

These living things have survived for millions of years without the slightest change in their structures. The fact that these Democrats never changed is a sign that they never evolved.

SCIENCE !

131 Nevergiveup  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:47:48pm

Palestinians pleased with Livni's win

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Gee, that can't be a good sign!

132 CyanSnowHawk  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:48:31pm

re: #129 Ben Hur

One of my top 10.

I used to train to the soundtrack.

BBL.

Up there in my top 10 as well. It is also my favorite Basil Polodouri soundtrack.

133 Occasional Reader  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:49:43pm

It's times like this when I wonder if I'm not quite right in the head:

I've had the theme song from "Makin' It" running through my brain for the last half hour or so, for some reason.

134 Globular Cluster  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:51:12pm

Unfortunately, Richard Dawkins is also a crackpot.

135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:51:25pm

re: #110 Ben Hur

Again, if Evolution is Haram, how are Jews the descendants of Apes and Pigs?

Well, you know how those joos cheat...

136 scottishbuzzsaw  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:51:27pm

re: #133 Occasional Reader

It's times like this when I wonder if I'm not quite right in the head:

I've had the theme song from "Makin' It" running through my brain for the last half hour or so, for some reason.

Are you asking us to vote on it?

137 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:54:02pm

re: #134 Globular Cluster

Unfortunately, Richard Dawkins is also a crackpot.

In his political opinions, perhaps, but within his professional discipline, evolutionary biology, he is one of the leading scholars alive.

138 Perplexed  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 2:56:01pm

Turkey (a polite term for a jerk) bans Richard Dawkin's web site? Hmmm, oh, that Turkey, not a jerk, but still a jerk for institutional censorship. Hey, knowledge/fantasy/stuff that you deem threatening to your regime really isn't all that threatening. Lift the ban and if it is garbage it will go away on its own. Now as to that book from the prophet for profit, that is threatening to global peace as are the works of Marx and Engels if those theories get enacted.

139 nyc redneck  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 3:06:11pm

they want to keep their people ignorant.
any knowledge that might cause people to look outside the koran for truth, must be suppressed.
islam is not abt. the free and open exchange of ideas.
it must be horrible to be a bright young student (or anyone really) in a moslem country.
deprived of access to information and learning.
islam is a crime against humanity.

140 sattv4u2  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 3:16:12pm

re: #134 Globular Cluster

Unfortunately, Richard Dawkins is also a crackpot.

re: #137 Salamantis

In his political opinions, perhaps, but within his professional discipline, evolutionary biology, he is one of the leading scholars alive.

I always wondered what happened to him after he was on Hogans Heroes and The Family Fued ,,,

wha? that was Richard DAWSON ,,,, are you sure ?

[Link: www.imdb.com...]

oh well ,,, nevahmind !

141 Globular Cluster  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 3:43:07pm

re: #137 Salamantis

In his political opinions, perhaps, but within his professional discipline, evolutionary biology, he is one of the leading scholars alive.

You must have missed all the previous evolution debates, where science worshippers threw Dawkins under the bus. They did so for a reason.

So here we go again: How does evolution logically lead to atheism, as Dawkins claims?

142 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 3:50:51pm

re: #141 Globular Cluster

You must have missed all the previous evolution debates, where science worshippers threw Dawkins under the bus. They did so for a reason.

So here we go again: How does evolution logically lead to atheism, as Dawkins claims?

That is a separate, and political, question from whether or not evolutionary theory is sound, valid and solid science. On that issue, Dawkins has written eloquently, persuasively, and convincingly.

The Selfish Gene, Oxford University Press, 1976, ISBN 0-19-286092-5

The Extended Phenotype, Oxford University Press, 1982, ISBN 0-19-288051-9

The Blind Watchmaker, W. W. Norton & Company, 1986, ISBN 0-393-31570-3

River out of Eden, Basic Books, 1995, ISBN 0-465-06990-8

Climbing Mount Improbable, New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1996, ISBN 0-393-31682-3

Unweaving the Rainbow, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 1998, ISBN 0-618-05673-4

The Ancestor's Tale, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, 2004, ISBN 0-618-00583-8

143 J.S.  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 4:21:01pm

re: #110 Ben Hur

that's a rhetorical question, isn't it? you don't really want to know the answer, do you...(MEMRI had a Special Report -- i read it years ago, giving Muslims' "explanations" -- it was one of the most nauseatingly stupid things I have ever read...truly stomach turning.even worse than that stupid Buraq...all boils down to magical thinking -- dark ages...but, it's rife throughout their "culture.")

144 Dan G.  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 4:42:27pm

DI apologists, this is the company you keep?

145 Krik_t_semaj  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 4:47:46pm

When I think of backward thinking dark ages I think of those who who hate liberty, freedom, rule of law, America. I think of those who cannot see the vast difference between America and 'progressive' Europe. Let alone second or third world tribal mafia's.

146 Naso Tang  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 4:51:39pm

re: #90 Sharmuta

What we have here is the deep pockets of a creationist using his influence and money to keep his countrymen ignorant and unaware of the fraud he's perpetrating upon them. And the longer the people are kept ignorant, the easier it is for them to be manipulated by the islamists trying to overturn the secular constitution of Turkey. It's a downright shame.

One has to wonder how this plays in the EU regarding Turkish membership, on the other hand, perhaps they don't want to say anything for fear of riots at home? //

147 Krik_t_semaj  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 4:58:40pm

I own and like

148 Throbert McGee  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 5:08:12pm

I own a copy of the massive Atlas of Creation -- a souvenir from my brief stint at TNR, which received over a dozen free copies (unsolicited, of course). But I must have a different edition than the one mentioned by Dawkins, because although it's rich with comedy gold, I just flipped through the entire insect/arachnid section and there's no caddisfly with a fish hook.

Anyway, the one truly interesting thing about the AoC is that it's so distinctively Old Earth Creationist, whereas here in the U.S. we're more familiar with the YECers who believe that it all began in 4004 BC, per the Bishop Ussher's literalist arithmetic.

But while the AoC acknowledges that life has existed on Earth for hundreds of millions of years, it's also unmistakably big-C Creationist in that it repeatedly (like on almost every single page) stresses the static perfection of species. For Yahya, even microevolution within a genus has to be a Darwinist lie, for the same reason that some Christian theologians were once outraged when early telescopes revealed a Moon scarred with impact craters -- because that meant the Moon had changed since God had first created it.

Also, the AoC's treatment of human history is quite unlike what we're used to from American Creationists -- it claims that Homo sapiens sapiens have existed unchanged for hundreds of millions of years, ever since our species was specially created by God. (Our Creationists, or at least the old-earth variety, often acknowledge the possibility of multiple "sequential creations," to account for the obvious point that humans haven't been around for very long.)

Of course, insisting that humanity is hundreds of millions of years old means that Yahya has to peddle crank-archeology, not just crank-biology.

For instance, all those theories you've heard about the ancient Egyptians moving the pyramid stones on rolling logs are just part of the evolutionist lie -- simple common sense (says Yahya) shows that the Egyptians must've had powered machinery and steel cables to hoist such massive stones into place. And since humans had metallurgy going back at least 300 million years (as the book asserts elsewhere), it's certainly not a stretch to suppose that the Egyptians of 3000 BC were able to manufacture steel cables and internal combustion engines.

Totally balls-out crazy, in short, but crazy in an unmistakably non-Western way that makes it an intriguing cultural artifact.

149 Throbert McGee  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 5:23:50pm

Dawkins mentions the obviously expensive production values of the AoC (although you can bet your ass that what they spent on printing and binding, they saved by NOT paying National Geographic et al. for the photo rights!).

But they really pulled out all the stops on the edition I own -- the front and back covers have matte cut-outs to frame the decorative lenticular motion images (aka "winkies") that adorn the book!

150 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 5:30:29pm

Just a late post, an FYI regarding the secular heritage of modern Turkey:

"My people are going to learn the principles of democracy the dictates of truth and the teachings of science. Superstition must go. Let them worship as they will, every man can follow his own conscience provided it does not interfere with sane reason or bid him act against the liberty of his fellow men."

Mustafa Kemal Ataturk

(from a page on We Are The Turks)

151 Cap'n DOC  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 6:29:18pm

re: #49 Salamantis

Nah, nah, nah...

The mention of St. PolyCarp was meant as a joke - not that you'd be inclined to be needing his intervention. Sorry if I led you to believe otherwise.

/I don't know who the patron saint of humor is, but I could use one of them.

152 doubleplusundead  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 7:47:17pm

Too bad they can't both lose.

Dawkins and Yahya are both douchebags of the highest order.

153 ragnwald  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 10:18:28pm

ROFLMAO! I'm a fly fisherman myself and have been to that website before. I also tie my own flies, but this guy is just amazing! When I now see that he doesn't only trick fish but creationists as well, I'm starting to wonder if there can be that many differences between fish-brains and creationist brains. :-)

154 Salamantis  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 10:46:30pm

re: #152 doubleplusundead

Too bad they can't both lose.

Dawkins and Yahya are both douchebags of the highest order.

I would propose, having read Dawkins, and having read what has been exposed concerning the content of Harun Yahya's offerings, that there is a vast and undeniable difference between the empirical veracity of the content of Dawkins' books and of Harun Yahya's.

155 doubleplusundead  Wed, Sep 17, 2008 11:29:39pm

re: #154 Salamantis

I would propose, having read Dawkins, and having read what has been exposed concerning the content of Harun Yahya's offerings, that there is a vast and undeniable difference between the empirical veracity of the content of Dawkins' books and of Harun Yahya's.

I'm making no comment on their empirical veracity, I'm only noting they are both obnoxious douchebags.

156 Jimmah  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 3:05:24am

re: #38 Charles

The picture of the caddis fly fishing lure was lifted from this page:

[Link: www.grahamowengallery.com...]

Quality!

157 realwest  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 5:42:22am

test

158 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 5:59:37am

re: #38 Charles

The picture of the caddis fly fishing lure was lifted from this page:

[Link: www.grahamowengallery.com...]

Wow, that guy's work is amazing. I'll bet his stuff is not cheap. Ouch.

159 Annar  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 7:16:30am

Turkey should be fully reintegrated into the Ummah within a generation. It may then retake the initiative to integrate Western Europe into the new caliphate and they won't take no for an answer. In less than two generations the call to prayer will be heard from the Eiffel Tower and the Obama Tiesgarten rally site in Germany.

Meanwhile, the Muslim Caucus in the U.S. House of Representatives, now 175 strong, will insist the the U.S. government defund non Islamic space projects and medical research to get money for the acquisition of Harun Yahya books for the students in the madrassas of the poor.

/sarc

160 NCusTranshumanist  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 9:30:21am
Turkey Bans Richard Dawkins' Web Site

...Pretty Much Proving His Point.

161 Vanceone  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 10:22:49am

I still wonder about this site. Has Charles noticed the proliferation of people on other conservative websites who have moved away from LGF?

This is a kind of case in point for the reason why: as I read it, LGF is quite explicitly trying to state that if you believe God created man, you are keeping company with Islamic people, and are, presumably, equal.

Look, the Discovery Institute is likely shady. But this "Creationism = Islam = likely terrorist (though unstated)" is just sickening.

My problem with Charles is this: He claims that evolution does not prevent a belief in God. I say, his version does, or at least prevents any conception of God that could care about humans.

How so? Because to say that God created man is not scientific, because evolutionists insist that the only way it happened was via random chance at some level. The belief that God made the changes is rejected as being nothing more than "creationism," and is thus not science. For Charles, if I understand him correctly, if God exists, He may have set evolution in order... which then proceeded to be random. Ergo, the human race is an accident.

For me, if I have to say that science forces the conclusion the human race is an accident, then I have serious problems. And I think that view is not allowed on LGF anymore? I don't see any room for Charles "Evolution is science and we must obey science" and my view that in fact, humans are special and God did create us--is there room for those views to co-exist?

For the poster above who asked how Dawkins views lead to atheism, it's quite simple: if you take out the possibility of God interfering and state that only science matters, then what room is there for God? He is ignored, being outside the bounds of science... and thus, all truth must be scientific truth.

Put in other words, if humanity is just an accident, then why would God care enough to send His son to, you know, save some random animals on earth?

The evolutionists view that humanity is an accidental smart animal undercuts the reason for most of religion. Ergo, if God exists, then He doesn't care... etc etc. etc.

And sadly, LGF seems to have gone whole hog into the "Belief in God creating you is the same as Islamic terrorism, ultimately" bit. Yes, you can believe in God with evolution, but as far as I can tell, any God that Charles will let you have isn't worth believing in.

And from what I've been told, there's been lots of bannings recently here. I imagine I will be one of them, so just let me say that when LGF isn't trying to tar all people who believe God created them with the islamic fundamentalist brush, this is a great site. I really appreciate the other kinds of posts. But I only check here once a day where I used to check 5 or six times. And this is my first comment in a while.

162 Charles  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 11:16:49am

re: #161 Vanceone

This is complete crap. First, far from people "moving away" from LGF, our traffic is way up right now.

Second, it is an indisputable FACT that US creationist groups are collaborating with Islamists. You can scream and whine about how I'm equating "believers" with Islamists (I'm not), but this is nothing but an attempt to obscure the facts and confuse the issue with nonsense.

You're attempting to spread division, not me, by insisting that believing in evolution is somehow evil and ungodly and atheistic. And you're distorting my positions to do it.

You have a perfect right to believe in fantasy -- i.e. creationism -- but you don't have a perfect right to force it on other people, either by these transparent guilt trips or by trickery.

163 vanceone  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 12:07:03pm

Charles, thank you for responding to my post.

You didn't answer my question, though: Is it possible to believe that the human race is special? You rail against creationism, but what, exactly, is the problem? I'm no "young earth creationist," by any stretch of imagination. I don't believe the Earth sprang into being out of nothingness in 4004 BC.

But I also don't believe that God just wandered off and did jack squat and humans just sort of happened. Am I wrong in saying you appear to believe just that? That the human race is an accident? If I am wrong in stating that is your belief, then I'd be happy to be corrected.

As for the evolution = atheism thing, I'm not sure how I am wrong. Why? Because it is quite simple. The theory of evolution simply doesn't allow for the presence of God. Everything has a natural explanation, aside from the "Life began" argument. God or any interference by Him simply is not allowed. How is that not at the very least agnostic?

You mistake me by believing I'm some part of a militant "discovery institute" type group. I'm not, I just wanted to express my concerns that in your attacks on the admittedly wrong young earth types, you are also attacking what I believe is much more prevalent: the sense of human uniqueness and connection with God.

I think there is a difference between laughing at the people who think Adam and Eve ate Brontosaurus for dinner 3 nights a week and between people who believe that God created mankind for a reason. The first group, I have no problems suggesting are wrong--indeed, my own experiences with those types are almost uniformly unpleasant. But believing that God actually did care enough to make sure the human body developed is not, I submit, a "fantasy" worthy of mocking. Do you? If that latter belief is "creationism" then I suppose I am one. Too bad, eh?

Additionally, I'm uncomfortable with the "if you work with any Islamic group every, anytime" it's bad equivalence you appear to be making. My alma mater works with various Islamic universities as one of the leading Dead Sea Scrolls translators, and has published many of those scrolls. In fact, my school developed techniques to help read burnt documents. Should I shun my university now, because any working with Islamic groups is verboten? I'm uncomfortable with this attitude.

Now, I rather doubt you care. You have a great website, and your traffic is up. But I'm a pretty good conservative as well, and perhaps it might be interesting to see who you are turning off on the right as well as the natural leftists who of course despise you. I hope you can recognize that, like it or not, LGF has drifted in the "if you aren't atheist, you aren't welcome" direction for a fair number of people. I think it is a shame, too. I don't really want to believe LGF and the community here views people like me like they do the DailyKos types. I fear that it is so, however. Whether or not you are concerned by that, I have no idea.

Thanks once again for responding to my comment--you have done so previously, and I thank you for that.

164 Charles  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 12:13:23pm

Somehow I knew you'd respond by insisting that belief in evolution inevitably leads to godless atheism.

The Catholic Church seems to disagree with you.

165 vanceone  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 12:55:44pm

Nice, Charles. What a way to address my post.

For your info, I'm not a Catholic, so I'm not quite sure what relevance the Catholic church has. Unitarians believe in Abortion, and that doesn't influence me.

But, even though I doubt this will have much impact, I will try in good faith once again.

The THEORY of evolution, much like other scientific theories, is by definition agnostic at best. Science cannot test for the presence of God. How, exactly, could you tell the difference between a cosmic ray mutation and God changing a gene from 40 million years ago? You can't. Ergo, the theory of evolution excludes God. Everything has to be explained "naturally."

Do I believe things evolved? Sure. Things have changed. Do I believe that the only possible way those things changed was via random events or natural selection? Natural selection is "natural," not supernatural, of course. I don't think that evolution was only driven by random mutations and selection pressures. Do I have the answers? No, but I don't go around preaching that science is the only possible source of truth.

Here's the thing: science cannot test for God, so it ignores God. Scientific theories, therefore, exclude God completely. And that is what they have to do.

The theory of origins, however, steps into theological grounds. The scientific theory of evolution of necessity tries to explain every event without recourse to God. It's 100% natural. As it has to be.

But if you only allow a natural theory--i.e. if the only possibility of truth is it has to be scientific, then yes, the theory of evolution, in it's full, complete Richard Dawkins glory, is atheist. There is no room for God. Because every. single. cause. must be natural.

Those who, like me, believe in God and also that things evolved, view it as a directed evolution. It isn't just chance. Things changed, yes, but God had a hand in many if not all of them. That's not scientific, but it certainly isn't a "fantasy" either. If you will not allow for any involvement by deity at all, then you are making a theological pronouncement: mankind is an accident, and of no value over any other species--because we ARE just another species that just happened to get a bigger brain or something. And stepping into religious debates means you shouldn't be surprised when religious types tend to disagree with this Hobbesian view of mankind: nasty, brutish and short.

Again, and I realize that this is probably fruitless, since you are apparently ignoring any point I have made in order to take a cheap shot at me, why do you insist on belittling every belief that God actually, you know, does something as "creationism?" If God cared enough to do miracles once humans got here, why is the belief that God cared enough to do something to make sure humans got here in the first place such a thing of ridicule?
And why does it surprise you that mocking the concept of an active, caring Deity (which is what you are doing when you mock the concept of God actually doing something to get humans here) earns you the title of "Atheist?"

166 Charles  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 12:59:49pm

No, the theory of evolution does not "exclude God," no matter how many times you repeat this falsehood. Evolution does not say anything at all about God -- it neither excludes nor includes God, because the concept of God is religion, not science.

You haven't made any points -- you're simply trying to create divisions where none exist.

167 vanceone  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 1:26:54pm

I had another post typed out here, but I'll just go my merry way. I'm sorry, Charles, that you can't see how the concept that God didn't actually do anything for 4 billion years and humans are a complete accident of mutation and various sorts of selection--those ideas might impact religion and the concept of just who humans and God are (and their relationships with each other) just a wee bit. But apparently you don't think it does.

Ah well. Good luck with your site!

168 Charles  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 1:35:45pm

If it gives you some kind of comfort to believe that I'm an "atheist," because I happen to agree with Pope Benedict that there's no conflict between accepting the science of evolution and believing in God, then knock yourself out.

Your attempt to divide people of faith, with "evolution" as a litmus test, is a fanatical view not shared by the majority of the world's Christians.

169 Salamantis  Thu, Sep 18, 2008 1:57:59pm

vanceone

Registered since: Oct 18, 2007 at 11:12 am

No. of comments posted: 35
No. of links posted: 10

35 comments in 11 months. And I'll bet that the majority of them have been in opposition to evolutionary theory.

170 Atilla Gal  Fri, Sep 19, 2008 12:28:50am

Here is the actual deal from the actual newspaper.

[International Herald Tribune] Book about God lands publisher in trouble
Turkish prosecutors on Thursday questioned a Turkish publisher of the book “The God Delusion,” by a British author, Richard Dawkins, after a young reader complained that it was offensive, the publisher said.

Turkey in Foreign Press

01.12.2007
Prosecutor probes Dawkins’ atheist best-seller book
The publisher of the Turkish edition of Richard Dawkins’ bestseller “The God Delusion” could face prosecution after a complaint that it insulted believers.

National

30.11.2007


This entry has been archived.
Comments are closed.

^ back to top ^

log in
Name:
Pass:

Register Forgot Your Password? My Account Re-send Confirmation (To log in, cookies must be enabled in your browser!)

► LGF Headlines

► Top 10 Comments

► Bottom Comments

► Recent Comments

► Tools/Info

► LGF Hits

► Slideshows

► Resources

► Never Forget

► Statistics

► Tag Cloud

► Contact

You must have Javascript enabled to use the contact form.
Your email:

Subject:

Message:


Messages may be published in our weblog, unless you request otherwise.
Tech Note:
Using the Contact Form

► News/Opinion

Free Shipping on Online Orders over $99
50% off Columbia DVD Sale
More Partners

Compare Electricity Prices in your area. Texas Electricity is deregulated; you have the right to choose Texas Electric Rates from among many Texas Electric Companies.

The brand new and bruising power.


The Beatles Are Here. Reissues and Rock Band.