The Vatican can see frauds from a mile away.

Heh.

Like a bunch of evangelicals really need another reason to distrust and hate Catholicism and the Pope?

re: #3 FurryOldGuyJeans

They're gonna do that anyway, although I don't know if I'd go as far as hate. That's so unChristian...

/kindasorta

The Church has profound interest in such dialogue, while fully respecting the competencies of each and all.

I am not surprised at this at all. Having gone to Catholic High School back in the early 80's; we were always taught that the Biblical version of Creation was nothing more than moral allegory, and not to be taken as literal truth.

We were taught that it was always OK to accept evolution as correct.
Catholic Grammar, High and University.

I went to a Jesuit High School, and took AP Science classes, which included raising our own Drosophila flies to observe genetics in action. We also took a mandatory religion class (which, by the way, usually consisted of a fairly free ranging philosophy discussion). It was NEVER once suggested that theology should replace or interfere with science theory. God and science do mix, and they mix very well. It is only the Creationist idiots who want to make science and religion oil and water.

that's my pope!

the vatican has been standing up against creationism for a long time.

re: #6 beblebrox

I am not surprised at this at all. Having gone to Catholic High School back in the early 80's; we were always taught that the Biblical version of Creation was nothing more than moral allegory, and not to be taken as literal truth.

I had a similar experience and I can still remember my teachers drumming it into us that the Bible is not a history book, it is not a sociology text, it is not an economics treatise, and it is not an engineering manual. And that every time anyone has tried to use it as one of those things it has caused no end of problems.

Don't get me wrong, Catholics have plenty of problems, crazy leteralism is just not one of them.

re: #7 loaded dice

re: #8 Gordon Marock

I was taught that the Church has nothing to fear from science, and I truly believe that.

The University of Notre Dame is an organizer, huh? Thats swell.
I want one of the priests to tell me how they intend to beat USC this year. Knute Rockne is spinning in his grave.

re: #10 CIA Reject

I had a similar experience and I can still remember my teachers drumming it into us that the Bible is not a history book, it is not a sociology text, it is not an economics treatise, and it is not an engineering manual. And that every time anyone has tried to use it as one of those things it has caused no end of problems.

I think every ID thread I've participated in I've used the phrase "the Bible is a Spiritual text."

He said arguments “that cannot be critically defined as being science, or philosophy or theology did not seem feasible to include in a dialogue at this level

I gotta say... I think ID and creationism certainly don't qualify as "science", but they can't be called "philosophy or theology" either?

I have to wonder what the debate will be about.

And note:

Archbishop Gianfranco Ravasi, president of the Pontifical Council for Culture, said the other extreme of the evolution debate -- proponents of an overly scientific conception of evolution and natural selection -- also were not invited.

What the heck is an "overly scientific" scientific theory?!

re: #6 beblebrox

I am not surprised at this at all. Having gone to Catholic High School back in the early 80's; we were always taught that the Biblical version of Creation was nothing more than moral allegory, and not to be taken as literal truth.

True, I even learned that in the 7th grade.

re: #15 Occasional Reader

Is that akin to picking nits?

re: #12 CIA Reject

re: #8 Gordon Marock

I was taught that the Church has nothing to fear from science, and I truly believe that.

I've seen nothing in science that contradicts my faith, ever. In fact what I see reaffirms my faith if anything else. The beauty of the cosmos, the intricacies of matter at the smallest level.

re: #11 Gordon Marock

Don't get me wrong, Catholics have plenty of problems, crazy leiteralism is just not one of them.

Fixed it.

Hamsters under duress?

Or is it just my system?

re: #20 Syrah

Hamsters under duress?

Or is it just my system?

I'm having issues refreshing the comments.

re: #14 jcm

I think every ID thread I've participated in I've used the phrase "the Bible is a Spiritual text."

I've thought about it a lot over the years and I've come to the conclusion that the Bible is the book that, spiritually and allegorically, explains us as a people. What we are, Where we've been, Where we are, Where we are going, How we will get there, and Why all this is happening.

It is the Epic of the Human Race.

re: #21 Creeping Eruption
Yeah, me too.

re: #15 Occasional Reader

What the heck is an "overly scientific" scientific theory?!

I think they're referring to people like Dawkins.

OT: Danish T-shirt makers convicted of supporting Pali terrorists with sales

I have asked this before & I am going for it again.
we now know that the Universe will vontinue to expand.
That means that there are expanding borders. What exists outside of the Borders?
This is for extra credit.

re: #21 Creeping Eruption

I'm having issues refreshing the comments.

Me too. I am using Vista.

re: #27 Gordon Marock

Me too. I am using Vista.

Firefox here. Charles?

re: #26 opnion

I have asked this before & I am going for it again.
we now know that the Universe will vontinue to expand.
That means that there are expanding borders. What exists outside of the Borders?
This is for extra credit.

Outside of Borders? Barns and Noble?

re: #29 Nevergiveup

Outside of Borders? Barns and Noble?

Actually, I was looking for Books A Million.

re: #26 opnion

There are no borders.

re: #29 Nevergiveup

Outside of Borders? Barns and Noble?

Actually I was going to say "the parking lot" :-)

re: #3 FurryOldGuyJeans

Like a bunch of evangelicals really need another reason to distrust and hate Catholicism and the Pope?

With all due respect sir, I am an evangelical Christian who believes in evolution. I do not distrust nor do I hate the Catholic Church; in fact, I respect the Pope and many of the Cardinals in taking strong moral stances in todays society. I think you will find that most evagelical Christians will agree with my sentiments.

I applaud the Catholic Church for not including "junk science" in this debate.

re: #26 opnion

I have asked this before & I am going for it again.
we now know that the Universe will vontinue to expand.
That means that there are expanding borders. What exists outside of the Borders?
This is for extra credit.

Star Stuff

Does anyone have a definitive answer about Palins view on science class rooms and "Intelligent Design?

re: #24 Charles

I knew little about Mr. Dawkins until yesterday. He can believe whatever he wants, but I'm certain that if he is avowed atheist (Wiki says he is), I can understand why the Church might have a problem with that. It would mean he is close-minded.

this is definately cool. I am very pleased with what Benedict has done, from this, to the motu propio, etc.

Dominus Vobiscum.

Pope John Paul II:

Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes. Each can draw the other into a wider world. A world in which both can flourish... (Physics, Philosophy, and Theology: A Common Quest for Understanding, 1988)

The Church does not propose that science should become religion or religion science.

The unprecedented opportunity we have today is for a common interactive relationship in which each discipline retains its integrity, and yet it's radically open to the discoveries and insights of the other.

I went to a Jesuit University (U. of Scranton) and when I took evolution, in '97 or '98, i think, we were required to discuss creationism, prof didn't want to, few, if any, of the students wanted to, but the local bishop insisted, since Catholic Universities are under the direction of the local diocese.

re: #35 mattThaHatter

Does anyone have a definitive answer about Palins view on science class rooms and "Intelligent Design?

Agin.

arguments "that cannot be critically defined as being science, or philosophy or theology did not seem feasible to include in a dialogue at this level..."

"at this level" is the operative qualifier.
He's making a very valid distinction.

A literal, or literary, belief in Genesis is not Theology. (That's NOT meant to disparage it as an object of someone's belief, but rather to place it into a pre-defined category.)

I.D. is a political position/agenda/et cetera.

re: #26 opnion

I have asked this before & I am going for it again.
we now know that the Universe will vontinue to expand.
That means that there are expanding borders. What exists outside of the Borders?
This is for extra credit.

It has not been definitively decided that the Universe will continue to expand. Questions about mass are still being worked out, hence the search for the Higgs Boson at the Hadron Collider.

re: #35 mattThaHatter

Does anyone have a definitive answer about Palins view on science class rooms and "Intelligent Design?

Charles has posted several threads on this subject. She DOES NOT advocate teaching "intelligent design" but feels that should the debate arise, it should be allowed. She does not want to push creationism down anyone's throat.

re: #22 CIA Reject

I've thought about it a lot over the years and I've come to the conclusion that the Bible is the book that, spiritually and allegorically, explains us as a people. What we are, Where we've been, Where we are, Where we are going, How we will get there, and Why all this is happening.

It is the Epic of the Human Race.

I've done a lot of study and reading over the last 20 years. And growing up grandson and son of preachers. I've found as spiritual text it is amazingly internally consistent and focused.

re: #37 Vergeltung

this is definately cool. I am very pleased with what Benedict has done, from this, to the motu propio, etc.

Dominus Vobiscum.

B16 is most certainly a man of REASON!

re: #31 Jim D

There are no borders.

That is the concept that is difficult. If the Universe is expanding & has been since the 'Big Bang", expanding into what?
there has to be borders if they are expanding.

There is no theory of evolution. Just a list of creatures Chuck Norris has allowed to live.

:D

Charlie seems to have this hell bent aghast against creationism. I think creationism is just a fringe movement/fad and nothing more.

If man evolved from apes, did God evolve from Ape-God?

Let's reconcile the two viewpoints. The Bible says man was created in God's image; but we know from the fossil record that mankind original was more apelike. So the only conclusion is that, back then, God looked more ape-like too.

Now if we could only find those transitional God-fossils, everything would fall into place!

re: #36 Cap'n DOC

I knew little about Mr. Dawkins until yesterday. He can believe whatever he wants, but I'm certain that if he is avowed atheist (Wiki says he is), I can understand why the Church might have a problem with that. It would mean he is close-minded.

Actually, it means he does not believe in god. Dawkins, however, is what could be called a militant atheist, and is somewhat antagonistic to the religious.

re: #48 Balian1193

You know, the jihadis are using creationism as one of their main levers on free governments.

For some reason I can't log on on the front page. The gear just spins and spins.

re: #42 Gordon Marock

It has not been definitively decided that the Universe will continue to expand. Questions about mass are still being worked out, hence the search for the Higgs Boson at the Hadron Collider.

that sounds like the answer if I understand you correctly. You are saying that there is something there, but not yet clearly understood?

re: #48 Balian1193

I disagree. Though I wouldn't put it up there with Islamism, it is a somewhat similar threat to individual conscience and liberty.

re: #36 Cap'n DOC

That's nonsense. Being an atheist in no way implies that one is close minded.

re: #52 swampy

For some reason I can't log on on the front page. The gear just spins and spins.

Try clicking a flippy triangle; the page will reload and it'll work for you.

re: #45 jill e

B16 is most certainly a man of REASON!

agreed. love it!

I get alot of catalogs from Ignatius Press, with many of his books listed and stuff. I really have to read more of what he has written. especially that of the last 5 years or so...........

BTW, how cool was it that he quoted that Byzantine Emperor re Islam. man, that got the splodeydopes going! heh heh.

re: #24 Charles

I think they're referring to people like Dawkins.

Then they could simply have a "no assholes" policy and be done with it.

I dunno, I find the terms of the proposed "debate" a little strange. I am adamantly opposed to the "teach the controversy!" nonsense when it comes to pushing for the teaching ID or creationism as SCIENCE. But it is certainly true that at a cultural level there's a "controversy". And what better forum than a Vatican-sponsored conference to rebut those ideas head-on?

And if, on the other hand, the Vatican wants to insist on a strictly scientific conference, it makes me think: 1) Then what are the "theologians and philsophers" doing there; 2) why exclude anyone on the grounds of being "overly scientific"; and 3) why is the Vatican the best forum for this?

re: #47 Archimedes

:D

Yup, Chuck Norris does not hunt. A hunter could fail, Chuck goes killin!

re: #52 swampy

For some reason I can't log on on the front page. The gear just spins and spins.

This page began working for me only in the last 5 minutes or so. I tried three times to post my #41 before it finally "took".

re: #53 opnion

that sounds like the answer if I understand you correctly. You are saying that there is something there, but not yet clearly understood?

Not really the answer. The Universe will either expand forever, or eventually collapse in a big crunch, depending on the mass of the Universe. Either way, the question of "what exists beyond the outer border of the (currently) expanding universe" seems unanswerable. Like, how can there be infinity? What about infinity plus one?

re: #48 Balian1193

Charlie seems to have this hell bent aghast against creationism. I think creationism is just a fringe movement/fad and nothing more.

Creationism is not a passing fad. There are many people who believe the earth is 6000 years old. This is dangerous because it goes against established science and teaches people to believe a fantasy. Who are the creationists to say that God didn't use evolution in his master plan. They exemplify arrogance and idiocy.

re: #48 Balian1193

Charlie seems to have this hell bent aghast against creationism. I think creationism is just a fringe movement/fad and nothing more.

um, yeah. it's only been going on since the Scopes trial and all.....

right.

re: #49 zombie

If man evolved from apes, did God evolve from Ape-God?

Let's reconcile the two viewpoints. The Bible says man was created in God's image; but we know from the fossil record that mankind original was more apelike. So the only conclusion is that, back then, God looked more ape-like too.

Now if we could only find those transitional God-fossils, everything would fall into place!

Find the God protozoa and I'll be impressed! ;-P

Or since we (mankind) choose not to follow God, and rebelled in the Genesis account, not only did we fall out of fellowship with God, but fell out of likeness and image also. And the spiritual quest to return to fellowship and our original state?

This is smart. Not only is it smart, it is the only rational decision. If anyone should have learned that science cannot be denied forever, it is the Catholic church. They have a couple of famous run-ins on record.

re: #46 opnion

Incorrect. There are no borders. There does not have to be a larger space in which this one is expanding.

re: #49 zombie

If man evolved from apes, did God evolve from Ape-God?

Let's reconcile the two viewpoints. The Bible says man was created in God's image; but we know from the fossil record that mankind original was more apelike. So the only conclusion is that, back then, God looked more ape-like too.

Now if we could only find those transitional God-fossils, everything would fall into place!

LOL, transitional God-fossils.

I wonder if believers that also believe evolution have wondered if creation is not yet complete, and we are not "in his image" yet.

Off topic, maybe. I have to run out today, so here goes today's

TRIVIA QUIZ

Name the most common molecule on the planet Earth.

re: #55 Jim D

That's nonsense. Being an atheist in no way implies that one is close minded.

no, not al all!

(looks down to suppress laughter)

Once again the Vatican and the Roman Catholic Church gets it right. Recall the effort to fix the historical revision of the Crusades:

THE Vatican has begun moves to rehabilitate the Crusaders by sponsoring a conference at the weekend that portrays the Crusades as wars fought with the “noble aim” of regaining the Holy Land for Christianity.

The Crusades are seen by many Muslims as acts of violence that have underpinned Western aggression towards the Arab world ever since. Followers of Osama bin Laden claim to be taking part in a latter-day “jihad against the Jews and Crusaders”...

...Roberto De Mattei, an Italian historian, recalled that the Crusades were “a response to the Muslim invasion of Christian lands and the Muslim devastation of the Holy Places”.

“The debate has been reopened,” La Stampa said. Professor De Mattei noted that the desecration of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem by Muslim forces in 1009 had helped to provoke the First Crusade at the end of the 11th century, called by Pope Urban II.

He said that the Crusaders were “martyrs” who had “sacrificed their lives for the faith”. He was backed by Jonathan Riley-Smith, Dixie Professor of Ecclesiastical History at Cambridge University, who said that those who sought forgiveness for the Crusades “do not know their history”. Professor Riley-Smith has attacked Sir Ridley Scott’s recent film Kingdom of Heaven, starring Orlando Bloom, as “utter nonsense”...

re: #69 rawmuse

Off topic, maybe. I have to run out today, so here goes today's

TRIVIA QUIZ

Name the most common molecule on the planet Earth.

H2O?

re: #58 negativ

No word on whether they invited any pedophiles.

you're an ass. I'd say more, but no sense getting a comment deleted.

re: #62 Gordon Marock

Not really the answer. The Universe will either expand forever, or eventually collapse in a big crunch, depending on the mass of the Universe. Either way, the question of "what exists beyond the outer border of the (currently) expanding universe" seems unanswerable. Like, how can there be infinity? What about infinity plus one?

Excellent my friend. Of course I would say that, because that is what I think.
I do know that the current consensus is that the Universe will not collapse on itself , but will continue to expand forever.
That conradicts the long held idea that it would collapse.
Science can not be settled & still be science.

The Church has always got a bum rap concerning science. Yet, if you look at the history of science, there have more than a few priests-scientists in the mix. Pope John Paul II, in his fides et ratio, argued that Faith and Reason are not incompatible.

VaticOWN'D.

Science!

er, wait a minute...

re: #69 rawmuse

Off topic, maybe. I have to run out today, so here goes today's

TRIVIA QUIZ

Name the most common molecule on the planet Earth.

Molecule .... hydrogen?

re: #36 Cap'n DOC

I knew little about Mr. Dawkins until yesterday. He can believe whatever he wants, but I'm certain that if he is avowed atheist (Wiki says he is), I can understand why the Church might have a problem with that. It would mean he is close-minded.

What? How does being an atheist make you close-minded, any more than being a theist does? Implicit in your statement is the assumption that atheists are factually incorrect. Otherwise, the statement "He believes in God -- it would mean he is close-minded" is equally valid.

re: #38 jill e

Pope John Paul II:

From St Thomas Aquinas;

“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”

re: #25 Creeping Eruption

OT: Danish T-shirt makers convicted of supporting Pali terrorists with sales

My Mom and Dad Blew themselves up and all i got was this stupid tee-shirt

re: #72 Gordon Marock

H2O?

The Winnah! (B flat chord, cymbal crash)

The Pope Chimes in:

Pope Benedict has referred to the debate between creationists and supporters of evolutionary theory as an "absurdity":

"They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other," the pope said. "This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such."
On the other hand, there are certain questions that evolutionary theory can never answer: "Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, 'Where does everything come from?'" Christians, thus, can learn truth from science, but scientists must learn to accept the limits of their own work. No scientific investigation can ever prove that God does not exist, or that He did not create the world, or even that man is only the sum of his physical parts.

Link

re: #71 celtic templar

Riley-Smith's book is right here on my desk, at 90% finished, what a work! he's really done the west a great service. clarifying and fixing the long-held distortions about the crusades....

OT: stock market madness!

re: #67 Jim D

Incorrect. There are no borders. There does not have to be a larger space in which this one is expanding.

How can there not be borders if the Universe is expanding?
By definition there is an outer limit. There has to be something beyond that, because you can't put something into nothing.

re: #58 negativ

No word on whether they invited any pedophiles.

Probably none were invited, if you really do care. The RCC has been purging ranks for a while now. It's the American church that was infiltrated by these cretins and the morally corrupted that protected them.

If you're suggesting that you have a problem with my faith, well that's another argument.

re: #82 rawmuse

The Winnah! (B flat chord, cymbal crash)

Hmmm, that has hydrogen in it. Molecule meaning compound. Okay.

re: #53 opnion

that sounds like the answer if I understand you correctly. You are saying that there is something there, but not yet clearly understood?

It one of those things that's hard to wrap our 4-D minds around.

The big bang occurred from a singularity. But what did it occur in? It's expanding but in what? We bounded by our universe, sticking our heads "outside" both conceptually and scientifically is difficult, because we don't have a reference frame other than mathematics. Math might gives us clues but how do we test "outside" with tools made "inside?"

The LHC is right up on the boundary, can it tells us what's on the other side, the nature of the boundary, well that's what they're trying to find out.

re: #69 rawmuse

Off topic, maybe. I have to run out today, so here goes today's

TRIVIA QUIZ

Name the most common molecule on the planet Earth.

IIRC Water is the third most abundant. Most abundant is probably Iron, but that's an element. Would it be Iron Oxide?

re: #75 jpkoch

The Church has always got a bum rap concerning science. Yet, if you look at the history of science, there have more than a few priests-scientists in the mix. Pope John Paul II, in his fides et ratio, argued that Faith and Reason are not incompatible.

1/2 way through a book at home that shows just how much the early church did to PRESERVE western civ after the fall of the roman empire; the schools, the universities, libraries, monastaries. copying texts. the list is ENDLESS.

re: #63 jetpilot1101

Creationism is not a passing fad. There are many people who believe the earth is 6000 years old. This is dangerous because it goes against established science and teaches people to believe a fantasy. Who are the creationists to say that God didn't use evolution in his master plan. They exemplify arrogance and idiocy.

Anyone who argues the Earth is only 6000 years old might as well be arguing that the world is flat or the sun revolves around the Earth.

re: #85 experiencedtraveller

OT: got into WM today and I'm a happy camper.

re: #74 opnion

Excellent my friend. Of course I would say that, because that is what I think.
I do know that the current consensus is that the Universe will not collapse on itself , but will continue to expand forever.
That conradicts the long held idea that it would collapse.
Science can not be settled & still be science.

Yeah, from what my pea brain can understand about the Higgs Boson is that it is a particle and also a 'field' like a glob of molasses that somehow contributes or creates mass in other particles. Very hard to understand, but the gist is that it will add to the understanding of mass.

re: #60 opnion

Yup, Chuck Norris does not hunt. A hunter could fail, Chuck goes killin!

Chuck Norris doesn't hunt. The deer just kill themselves out of respect.

re: #49 zombie

If man evolved from apes, did God evolve from Ape-God?

Let's reconcile the two viewpoints. The Bible says man was created in God's image; but we know from the fossil record that mankind original was more apelike. So the only conclusion is that, back then, God looked more ape-like too.

Now if we could only find those transitional God-fossils, everything would fall into place!

"transitional God-fossils" ... heh!

My only rejoinder would be regarding how to interpret "image". (FYI, I take Genesis as a literary account.) I believe that God is pointing/calling me toward something which is far beyond whatever mere human words can express. It's not a cop-out in terms of debate. It's a challenge from him (she/it) to me (us/whomever).

I wonder if Anselm is invited?

re: #65 jcm

Or since we (mankind) choose not to follow God, and rebelled in the Genesis account, not only did we fall out of fellowship with God, but fell out of likeness and image also. And the spiritual quest to return to fellowship and our original state?

So, you're saying that God is still an Ape-God? And the reason we now have this grotesque hairless skin and no tails is that we no longer look like God? Interesting. I'm imagining the Sistine Chapel with Dr. Zaius from Planet of the Apes touching Adam's fingertip.

re: #71 celtic templar

Good post. Anyone who has read any history could see for themselves the multiple invasion attempts of Islamic armies. Islam always evangelized with the sword. North Africa, Asia Minor, Spain, Southeast Europe all fell to the Islamic hordes. The Muslims got as far as Vienna before they began thier decline. And in the 7th Century almost defeated Charlemagne's armies in Central France. Islamic pirates repeatedly attacked and plundered Sicily, Malta, and Rome.

Seen it this light, the Crusades were nothing special.

Even the Pope is showing some cojones in wussbag Europe!

re: #55 Jim D

It does as far as religion is concerned. He's shut the door on the Creator, so to speak.

re: #89 jcm

Well said.

re: #94 Gordon Marock

Yeah,
from what my pea brain can understand about the Higgs Boson is that it
is a particle and also a 'field' like a glob of molasses that somehow
contributes or creates mass in other particles. Very hard to
understand, but the gist is that it will add to the understanding of
mass.

What better place than a Vatican conference to add to your understanding of Mass!

re: #69 rawmuse

Off topic, maybe. I have to run out today, so here goes today's

TRIVIA QUIZ

Name the most common molecule on the planet Earth.

Administratium: The heaviest element known to science was recently discovered by investigators at a major U.S. research university. The element, tentatively named administratium, has no protons or electrons and thus has an atomic number of 0. However, it does have one neutron, 125 assistant neutrons, 75 vice neutrons and 111 assistant vice neutrons, which gives it an atomic mass of 312. These 312 particles are held together by a force that involves the continuous exchange of meson-like particles called morons.

Any time you have more than two people together, you have administratium.

OT: There were folks that actually made money yesterday. I pulled a few more dollars in yesterday with my gold funds (about 12% return). Financials were hit hard, but diversification is always key.

Gold could be better today

re: #86 opnion

How can there not be borders if the Universe is expanding?
By definition there is an outer limit. There has to be something beyond that, because you can't put something into nothing.

The Universe is just a soap bubble in God's Kitchen Sink..
/Hippie mode off

re: #90 CyanSnowHawk

IIRC Water is the third most abundant. Most abundant is probably Iron, but that's an element. Would it be Iron Oxide?

Iron is an atom, so it would be a molecule with a single atom, unless it is part of a compound, e.g. Iron Sulfide.

re: #90 CyanSnowHawk

IIRC Water is the third most abundant. Most abundant is probably Iron, but that's an element. Would it be Iron Oxide?

Actually, Wiki says that water is the most abundant molecule on the SURFACE of the Earth. I have no idea if we account for all the turtles in the interior.

So, you may be eligible for an appeal. What say ye, Lizards?

This points out the ridiculousness of people saying that ALL Christians believe in creationism.

I attended Catholic schools where it was made clear that we learned science in the science classroom and religion in the religion classroom... no need for them to overlap. The Vatican has always been clear that faith has nothing to fear from science and reason. Science helps us to better understand the wonders of creation and that is a good thing.

Recently the Church of England apologized for their treatemnt of Darwin and his books. When the Vatican was asked if they would be apologizing as well there were two really great responses. First a Vatican representative said "Maybe we should abandon the idea of issuing apologies as if history was a court eternally in session," And then he pointed out that the Catholic Church never condemned Darwin or his theories or banned his book 'Origin of the Species'. Why should they apologize?

Remember, it was a Catholic priest that came up with the Big Bang theory. Catholic Christianity has long been ahome to scientific advancements.

re: #99 jpkoch

Good post. Anyone who has read any history could see for themselves the multiple invasion attempts of Islamic armies. Islam always evangelized with the sword. North Africa, Asia Minor, Spain, Southeast Europe all fell to the Islamic hordes. The Muslims got as far as Vienna before they began thier decline. And in the 7th Century almost defeated Charlemagne's armies in Central France. Islamic pirates repeatedly attacked and plundered Sicily, Malta, and Rome.
Seen it this light, the Crusades were nothing special.

the Crusades were a RE-conquest attempt, to recover formerly christian lands (roman empre anyone?), that were taken by Mo's followers.

re: #98 zombie

So, you're saying that God is still an Ape-God? And the reason we now have this grotesque hairless skin and no tails is that we no longer look like God? Interesting. I'm imagining the Sistine Chapel with Dr. Zaius from Planet of the Apes touching Adam's fingertip.

Damnit, I'm eating lunch and choked on that!
ROFL!
*cough*
*cough*
*cough*
I sending you the laundry bill......

re: #95 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Chuck Norris doesn't hunt. The deer just kill themselves out of respect.

Chuck Norris once ate two one pound steaks in two hours.
He ate the steaks in 15 minutes & spent the rest of the time having sex with the waitresses.

re: #103 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Good religious humor. You get an upper for that one.

re: #82 rawmuse

The Winnah! (B flat chord, cymbal crash)

I was going to challenge you ... on grounds that we don't empirically know the contents of Earth's core ... but you did say, the most common molecule ON Earth.

re: #90 CyanSnowHawk

IIRC Water is the third most abundant. Most abundant is probably Iron, but that's an element. Would it be Iron Oxide?

Iron is an atom.

In keeping with the church's cutting-edge approach to science, in 1992 Pope John Paul II admitted that Galileo "just might be onto something with that darn heliocentric business of his."

re: #106 HoosierHoops

The Universe is just a soap bubble in God's Kitchen Sink..
/Hippie mode off

But what if God is just a soap bubble in another God's kitchen sink?
/oh man, I got the munchies!

re: #86 opnion

How can there not be borders if the Universe is expanding?
By definition there is an outer limit. There has to be something beyond that, because you can't put something into nothing.

Because 'space' is supposedly 'curved.'

re: #115 Gordon Marock

Iron is an atom.

so is ant

[Link: www.agapetoons.com...]

re: #106 HoosierHoops

The Universe is just a soap bubble in God's Kitchen Sink..
/Hippie mode off

I think you should leave your Hippie mode on.

It's akin to thinking outside the box.
I do that a lot, only to discover there is another box.

re: #117 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Munchies for SOAP? LOL. I hope it's minty fresh.

re: #69 rawmuse

Silicon oxide.

re: #86 opnion

How can there not be borders if the Universe is expanding?
By definition there is an outer limit. There has to be something beyond that, because you can't put something into nothing.

No. There is no definition of the universe that requires borders. A space can exist without being embedded in another. Expansion just means things are moving farther apart. This is perfectly sensible.

re: #89 jcm

It one of those things that's hard to wrap our 4-D minds around.

The big bang occurred from a singularity. But what did it occur in? It's expanding but in what? We bounded by our universe, sticking our heads "outside" both conceptually and scientifically is difficult, because we don't have a reference frame other than mathematics. Math might gives us clues but how do we test "outside" with tools made "inside?"

The big bang occurred everywhere. There was no special point about which it occurred. The entire universe was once much hotter and denser. It has since expanded and cooled.

The LHC is right up on the boundary, can it tells us what's on the other side, the nature of the boundary, well that's what they're trying to find out.

Space.

For something made up of nothing, there sure is a hell of a lot of it.

OK, Lizards, I am off. Play nice.
"Where are we going, and why am I in the handbasket?"

re: #36 Cap'n DOC

I knew little about Mr. Dawkins until yesterday. He can believe whatever he wants, but I'm certain that if he is avowed atheist (Wiki says he is), I can understand why the Church might have a problem with that. It would mean he is close-minded.

You should go get a copy of Selfish Gene and read it today. I'd bet money it would go into your top 5. The only thing is he's extremely insulting to Christians (and all religions). In footnotes, he says things like, in an objective world being a christian would be considered a form of insanity that requires institutionalizing, and things like that.

But the book is brilliant, and it's an easy read.

re: #122 Pullus Iulius

Doesn't she dance nude under another name?

re: #101 Cap'n DOC

Atheists demand evidence. Not believing in something for which there is no evidence is not close minded.

re: #126 cliffster

I'm always up for a good read.

re: #127 Cap'n DOC

Doesn't she dance nude under another name?

Bubbles LaRue

re: #114 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I was going to challenge you ... on grounds that we don't empirically know the contents of Earth's core ... but you did say, the most common molecule ON Earth.

I think you're right. I bet the most common molecule is simply Fe. There's a massive ball of molten iron at the earth's core that is surely larger than all the oceans combined, by many orders of magnitude.

re: #125 rawmuse

OK, Lizards, I am off. Play nice.
"Where are we going, and why am I in the handbasket?"

And why all the accordians?

re: #127 Cap'n DOC

And I kept telling her I wanted to send her to college!

re: #127 Cap'n DOC

Doesn't she dance nude under another name?

I think I saw her at Jugstore Cowgirls!

re: #118 Gordon Marock

Because 'space' is supposedly 'curved.'

Ok, I am not trying to be tedious here, but space being curved is a theory. It may or may not be correct, but let's stipulate that it is curved, I still think that something must lie outside the curve.

re: #109 mapchic

This points out the ridiculousness of people saying that ALL Christians believe in creationism.

Literal creationists are some of the most divisive, fanatical people in the world. They love to link belief in creationism with being a Christian - if you don't reject science you're a bad Christian, according to them.

And they'll often try to link it with "conservatism" as well. There's a creationist right now in the previous topic about Turkey blocking Dawkins' web site, trying to tell me that I'm driving conservatives away by speaking out against this creationist hooey.

re: #114 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I was going to challenge you ... on grounds that we don't empirically know the contents of Earth's core ... but you did say, the most common molecule ON Earth.

Everyone knows that the Earth's core is hollow, and that there are Dinosaurs n' shit down there.

re: #85 experiencedtraveller

OT: stock market madness!

Holy Samoyeds... Dow up 428?!

As Ricky Ricardo used to say, "wha' happen'?"

re: #92 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Anyone who argues the Earth is only 6000 years old might as well be arguing that the world is flat or the sun revolves around the Earth.

that's just crazy talk! everyone knows the universe revolves around obama!
/channeling the obamatrons

I'm glad that somone called PZ on his overly rabid secularism. His motivation seems highly politically motivated at times rather than science driven, which weakens many of his valid arguments. He's the code pink of the evolution support movement, drifting too far into hysteria and ad hominem attack often.

re: #128 Jim D

I'd hedge my bet if I were him.

/Wouldn't go looking for any handbaskets that weren't flameproofed.

re: #89 jcm

It one of those things that's hard to wrap our 4-D minds around.

The big bang occurred from a singularity. But what did it occur in? It's expanding but in what?

My personal theory is that the Big Bang occurred in the particle collider of some creatures much like us, right after they had assured their public that there was no possible way that the collider's operation could pose a threat to their existing universe.

It's sort of like the turtles all the way down theory of cosmology, but the turtles are replaced with mad scientists.

re: #119 sattv4u2

so is ant

[Link: www.agapetoons.com...]

FOr a moment, I thought you were linking to this: Goody Two-shoes

re: #128 Jim D

Atheists demand evidence. Not believing in something for which there is no evidence is not close minded.

Atheism is lazy and easy. it's having faith that is hard.

re: #136 Charles

Well you are, sort of. You're driving away creationist conservatives.

hannity just exclaimed like a little boy, "the dow is up 400 DOLLARS"
lol,
i sounded cute.

re: #124 Syrah

Space.

For something made up of nothing, there sure is a hell of a lot of it.

I've always thought that the Air and Space Museums should be pretty much empty.

re: #108 rawmuse

Actually, Wiki says that water is the most abundant molecule on the SURFACE of the Earth. I have no idea if we account for all the turtles in the interior.

So, you may be eligible for an appeal. What say ye, Lizards?

I am willing to concede Water is the most abundant molecule. Especially as such matters fall far from my field of expertise, and damned if I can find any source that says differently now.

re: #123 Jim D

I use boundary metaphorically.
The image is of the big bang and a bubble expanding since, something we can stretch a tape measure across.

But as you point out it's not that simplistic, discussing or comprehending the basic structure of things.

However I am sure it's turtles all the way down./

it sounded cute.

Ok.. It's a beautiful day out.. I'm off to hit some golf balls..
Have a nice day everyone..
/The Hoopster leaves tossing out snicker bars to the lizards..

re: #137 Gordon Marock

Everyone knows that the Earth's core is hollow, and that there are Dinosaurs n' shit down there.

And Sleestacks! Don't forget the Sleestacks!

(Ill-tempered beasts, but ludicrously slow, and can't hit the broadside of a barn with those laughably underpowered crossbows)

re: #135 opnion

Ok, I am not trying to be tedious here, but space being curved is a theory. It may or may not be correct, but let's stipulate that it is curved, I still think that something must lie outside the curve.

Hey, man, I agree. I am just parroting shit I saw on Cosmos.

A few years ago, there was an awful uproar over Michael Dini, a biology professor here at Texas Tech who refused to provide letters of recommendation to students who would not accept the theory of evolution.
Generally lost in all this was that Mike is Catholic and was in fact an Augustinian brother for 14 years.

re: #136 Charles

Literal creationists are some of the most divisive, fanatical people in the world. They love to link belief in creationism with being a Christian - if you don't reject science you're a bad Christian, according to them.

And they'll often try to link it with "conservatism" as well. There's a creationist right now in the previous topic about Turkey blocking Dawkins' web site, trying to tell me that I'm driving conservatives away by speaking out against this creationist hooey.

Pointing to "A" creationist seems to re-inforce mapchics point, that not ALL christians beleive in it.

re: #136 Charles

Literal creationists are some of the most divisive, fanatical people in the world. They love to link belief in creationism with being a Christian - if you don't reject science you're a bad Christian, according to them.

And they'll often try to link it with "conservatism" as well. There's a creationist right now in the previous topic about Turkey blocking Dawkins' web site, trying to tell me that I'm driving conservatives away by speaking out against this creationist hooey.

And you're lfg2 friends cite ID threads as discrimination. I for one, think you do a great service to Christians, Roman Catholics, by underscoring rationalism and science as part of my faith.

Well if evolution is good enough for the Pope it's good enough for me.

re: #144 Vergeltung

Atheism is lazy and easy.

I'd refute that, but it would take, like, effort n' stuff.

re: #143 Creeping Eruption

FOr a moment, I thought you were linking to this: Goody Two-shoes

hehehe ,, the thought crossed my mind !

re: #136 Charles

I once had a Creationist tell me that I could not debunk the Garden of Eden because I wasn't there. Isn't that the point? Nobody was.

re: #152 Occasional Reader

And Sleestacks! Don't forget the Sleestacks!

(Ill-tempered beasts, but ludicrously slow, and can't hit the broadside of a barn with those laughably underpowered crossbows)

Enoch?

re: #144 Vergeltung

Atheism is lazy and easy. it's having faith that is hard.

Yep. It's really easy not to believe in magic and fairy tales.

re: #120 jwb7605

I think you should leave your Hippie mode on.

It's akin to thinking outside the box.
I do that a lot, only to discover there is another box.

Hippies in a box? Bet that smells good.
/

re: #135 opnion

I still think that something must lie outside the curve.

The glass wall of the test-tube?

re: #151 HoosierHoops

Ok.. It's a beautiful day out.. I'm off to hit some golf balls..
Have a nice day everyone..
/The Hoopster leaves tossing out snicker bars to the lizards..

Snickers bars! OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG

Thanks muchly!

re: #136 Charles

Not to worry. They'll devolve into contemplating the number of angels on the head of a pin any day now.

So no takers on my "I find the terms of the proposed "debate" a little strange" (#59), eh?

re: #142 cicero05

My personal theory is that the Big Bang occurred in the particle collider of some creatures much like us, right after they had assured their public that there was no possible way that the collider's operation could pose a threat to their existing universe.

It's sort of like the turtles all the way down theory of cosmology, but the turtles are replaced with mad scientists.

So when the LHC is successful we can all have our own universe?

I went to Catholic high school (until I was kicked out, but that's another story) and we were taught that Genesis 1 - 31 were not to be taken literally, especially regarding the word "day" to mean a literal 24 hour period.

We were also taught that the theory of evolution did not refute creation because the first man, Adam, was not the first living thing on the Earth, he was the conclusion of God's creation. And that all life which preceded Adam was not human (created in God's image), therefore evolution, as a process of creation, was acceptable.

re: #95 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

Another variation:

Chuck Norris doesn't fish. He catches.

re: #158 Occasional Reader

I'd refute that, but it would take, like, effort n' stuff.

heh, I hear ya. sometimes, it's more than a reply post can handle. ;)

re: #147 wrenchwench

I've always thought that the Air and Space Museums should be pretty much empty.

Except for the exhibits and all the people, it is a great big empty building.
:-)

I went there in 1982 with family.

My uncle was a Flying Tiger. He was like a kid in a candy store. Great fun.

re: #153 Gordon Marock

Hey, man, I agree. I am just parroting shit I saw on Cosmos.

I am not suggesting that you are tedious. You are not.
I read Sagan & I am still facinated by the question 'What lies beyond?"

re: #160 opnion

I once had a Creationist tell me that I could not debunk the Garden of Eden because I wasn't there. Isn't that the point? Nobody was.

I've never seen a unicorn, therefore unicorms must exist.

re: #137 Gordon Marock

Everyone knows that the Earth's core is hollow, and that there are Dinosaurs n' shit down there.

No, the hollow core is full of evil robots

re: #174 cliffster

I'm too lazy to believe in unicorns.

re: #174 cliffster

I've never seen a unicorn, therefore unicorms must exist.

The Unicorn horn is the sharp edge of the wedge dontchyaknow.

/

re: #108 rawmuse

Actually, Wiki says that water is the most abundant molecule on the SURFACE of the Earth. I have no idea if we account for all the turtles in the interior.

So, you may be eligible for an appeal. What say ye, Lizards?

I call mock turtle.

re: #169 Ringo the Gringo

I went to Catholic high school (until I was kicked out, but that's another story) and we were taught that Genesis 1 - 31 were not to be taken literally, especially regarding the word "day" to mean a literal 24 hour period.

We were also taught that the theory of evolution did not refute creation because the first man, Adam, was not the first living thing on the Earth, he was the conclusion of God's creation. And that all life which preceded Adam was not human (created in God's image), therefore evolution, as a process of creation, was acceptable.

Those were some clever nuns teaching you!

re: #137 Gordon Marock

Everyone knows that the Earth's core is hollow, and that there are Dinosaurs n' shit down there.

So how long until the core fills up with dinosaur shit?

re: #169 Ringo the Gringo
Come on, what did you do to get tossed?

re: #174 cliffster

I've never seen a unicorn, therefore unicorms must exist.

'course they do silly, 0bama rides one to work each day! :)

re: #138 Occasional Reader

Holy Samoyeds... Dow up 428?!

As Ricky Ricardo used to say, "wha' happen'?"

No roller coaster only goes down. Where would the fun be in that?

re: #170 lawhawk

Another variation:

Chuck Norris doesn't fish. He catches.

naaahhh ,, he just stands by the river bank ,, and when the fish he wants swims by ,, Chuck says ,,, 'you ,,,, c'mere,,, NOW" and the fish jumps outta the water at his feet

re: #168 jcm

So when the LHC is successful we can all have our own universe?

That was the original plan. Due to budget cuts, the revised plan is that we each get our Own Private Idaho.

re: #180 pre-Boomer Marine brat

So how long until the core fills up with dinosaur shit?

It turns into oil by the time it reaches the surface.

The most common molecule on Earth is Bullshit BS₃

re: #73 Vergeltung

you're an ass. I'd say more, but no sense getting a comment deleted.

I wish people would realize that pedophiles seek jobs and opportunities that give them the greatest access to children. Positions of great trust—teachers, priests, ministers, Boy Scout leaders...and decent, moral people have a great deal of trouble even imagining such a thing. It often leads those in authority (especially men) to look the other way. As wrong as this is (and was), it's something I've seen happen over and over again. They are manipulators of the first degree and they manipulate churches and schools and other organizations to get what they want.

re: #184 sattv4u2

naaahhh ,, he just stands by the river bank ,, and when the fish he wants swims by ,, Chuck says ,,, 'you ,,,, c'mere,,, NOW" and the fish jumps outta the water at his feet

chuck has a new book out, something like "Karate Patriotism" or the like. anyone read it yet?

Richard Dawkins doesn't disbelieve in God; it's just that he tried to roundhouse-kick God in the head, and there was nothing there.

re: #158 Occasional Reader

I'd refute that, but it would take, like, effort n' stuff.

That smacks of effort!
/Nelson Muntz, 20th-Century philosopher

re: #167 Occasional Reader

So no takers on my "I find the terms of the proposed "debate" a little strange" (#59), eh?

I'm guessing they would prefer a debate amongst people willing to actually debate and not invite the evolutionary and ID equivalents of Code Pink and the swearing pants dropping college professor

re: #180 pre-Boomer Marine brat

So how long until the core fills up with dinosaur shit?

That's oil, bubbling to the surface.
Learned that in 5th grade.

re: #141 Cap'n DOC

I'd hedge my bet if I were him.

/Wouldn't go looking for any handbaskets that weren't flameproofed.

You just can't find any asbestos baskets anymore.

re: #144 Vergeltung

Atheism is lazy and easy. it's having faith that is hard.

On a very specific point, the capability for abstraction of theists has been celebrated by Sigmund Freud, an atheist:

"The ability to believe in an internal, invisible God vastly improves people's capacity for abstraction. [Sigmund Freud writes in "Moses and Monotheism"] 'The prohibition against making an image of God--the compulsion to worship a God whom one cannot see,' he says, meant that in Judaism 'a sensory perception was given second place to what may be called an abstract idea--a triumph of intellectuality over sensuality.' If people can worship what is not there they can also reflect on what is 'not there, or on what is presented to them in symbolic and not immediate terms. So the mental labor of monotheism prepared the Jews--as it would eventually prepare others in the West--to achieve distinction in law, in mathematics, in science and in literary art.' It gave them an advantage in all activities that involved making an abstract model of experience, in words or numbers or lines, and working with the abstraction to achieve control over nature or to bring humane order to life. Freud calls this internalizing process an 'advance in intellectuality' and he credits it directly to religion."

So according to Freud, it is close minded to not believe in a higher authority.
Source

re: #160 opnion

I once had a Creationist tell me that I could not debunk the Garden of Eden because I wasn't there. Isn't that the point? Nobody was.

I've never been to Moscow, Russia. ergo it does not exist!
Brilliant.

I've never seen BHO in person, he doesn't exist either, oh wait I have seen McCain either. Oh shit.......... who do I vote for?

re: #178 debutaunt

I call mock turtle.

Constable Clitoris ate one of those!

re: #185 Occasional Reader

Actually its been further scaled back to "middle class tax cuts"

Thanks for this thread, Charles!

re: #174 cliffster

I've never seen a unicorn, therefore unicorms must exist.

Same logic. I do not ever want to be disrespectful to Creationists & one can be a Deist & see the absurdity of the story of Adam & Eve.

re: #188 jill e

I wish people would realize that pedophiles seek jobs and opportunities that give them the greatest access to children. Positions of great trust—teachers, priests, ministers, Boy Scout leaders...and decent, moral people have a great deal of trouble even imagining such a thing. It often leads those in authority (especially men) to look the other way. As wrong as this is (and was), it's something I've seen happen over and over again. They are manipulators of the first degree and they manipulate churches and schools and other organizations to get what they want.

that, and the "lavender mafia" that has infiltrated the preisthood since Vatican II and the social revolution(s) since the 1960s.

I believe that problem is now being addressed, albeit slowly.

re: #168 jcm

So when the LHC is successful we can all have our own universe?

I think you've just successfully integrated modern particle physics experimentation and Mormon theology!

re: #69 rawmuse

Off topic, maybe. I have to run out today, so here goes today's

TRIVIA QUIZ

Name the most common molecule on the planet Earth.

Hydrogen isn't it?

re: #174 cliffster

I've never seen a unicorn, therefore unicorms must exist.

So you're counterargument is "I've never seen intelligence or freedom, so therefore they do not exist?"

re: #199 Peacekeeper

Actually its been further scaled back to "middle class tax cuts"

Damn, I was promised a universe and all I get is a lousy $600!

re: #162 Jim D

Hey. I resent that remark. My belief in a Creator has absolutely nothing to do with magic or fairy tales.

re: #179 zombie

Those were some clever nuns teaching you!

Nun cleverer is abbot all I'll say to that.

"If there were no God, there would be no atheists." GK Chesterton

re: #203 cicero05

I think you've just successfully integrated modern particle physics experimentation and Mormon theology!

ROFL! I'm either famous, or a marked man!

re: #196 celtic templar

nice find brother man! makes sense, when you think about it.

re: #167 Occasional Reader

So no takers on my "I find the terms of the proposed "debate" a little strange" (#59), eh?

I saw that too, but essentially agree with you.

If they're not planning on discussing teaching ID as science, why would the ID'ers be left out? Apart from that aspect of ID, many would accept ID as a religious concept consistent with Christianity.

I can see the Vatican wanting to have a discussion that attempts to understand the apparent conflict between the biblical account of creation and current scientific knowledge. After all, failing to accept new scientific discoveries has been a major failing of the church over the years. It seems to me like a good sign that it would now express interest in remaining current.

re: #138 Occasional Reader

Holy Samoyeds... Dow up 428?!

As Ricky Ricardo used to say, "wha' happen'?"

This is a day of Dead Cats.

This is probably not over yet.

re: #175 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

No, the hollow core is full of evil robots

The hollow core has already been explored by Frankenstein's monster, anyway. ("Black as the Pit, From Pole to Pole", Howard Waldrop)

re: #205 celtic templar

So you're counterargument is "I've never seen intelligence or freedom, so therefore they do not exist?"

Depends on what happens November 5th.

The dinosaurs didn't die out 65 million years ago; Chuck Norris just looked back in time at them and they decided it was wise to keep a safe distance.

re: #156 celtic templar

And you're lfg2 friends cite ID threads as discrimination. I for one, think you do a great service to Christians, Roman Catholics, by underscoring rationalism and science as part of my faith.

Just don't expect the Pope to hand you a Righteous Catholic title anytime soon however.

re: #146 nyc redneck

I hope it changed it to points, in the next breath.

re: #206 jcm

Not everyone lost out: Charlie Rangel got a nice seaside universe in the Bahamas...

re: #158 Occasional Reader

hahahahahhahahahaha

re: #216 zombie

The dinosaurs didn't die out 65 million years ago; Chuck Norris just looked back in time at them and they decided it was wise to keep a safe distance.

Man (woman, zombie, whatever), everyone knows that was Sarah Palin not Chuch Norris ... update the meme :)

re: #207 Cap'n DOC

Hey. I resent that remark. My belief in a Creator has absolutely nothing to do with magic or fairy tales.

that's all he could come up with on such short notice. heh heh.

re: #216 zombie

The dinosaurs didn't die out 65 million years ago; Chuck Norris just looked back in time at them and they decided it was wise to keep a safe distance.

Are you saying Chuck Norris was afraid of them?

re: #202 Vergeltung

that, and the "lavender mafia" that has infiltrated the preisthood since Vatican II and the social revolution(s) since the 1960s.

I believe that problem is now being addressed, albeit slowly.

Most certainly...the seminaries were allowed to be havens of evil. Many of the really bad bishops in the US are in their 60s and 70s. Unfortunately, it may take their retirements to keep things rolling.

re: #199 Peacekeeper

Actually its been further scaled back to "middle class tax cuts"

Oops, revised revised revised plan; we each get to be partial owner of a bankrupt insurance company. Hooray!

re: #206 jcm

Damn, I was promised a universe and all I get is a lousy $600!

That ain't so bad. All I got was a lousy Tee shirt. Oh wait. It was the wrong size. ;-)>

re: #179 zombie

Those were some clever nuns teaching you!

No nuns, they were Priests and Brothers.

One of my favorite teachers was a Priest who was also my science teacher.

He was a smart old guy....He rarely smiled and he smoked a pipe in class.

You don't find teachers like him anymore.

re: #205 celtic templar

So you're counterargument is "I've never seen intelligence or freedom, so therefore they do not exist?"

what color is intelligence? or freedom?

re: #217 CyanSnowHawk

Just don't expect the Pope to hand you a Righteous Catholic title anytime soon however.

Part of being Righteous, my friend, is not needing someone to hand me the the title ;)

re: #213 Syrah

This is a day of Dead Cats.

This is probably not over yet.

This is start of the market turnaround, the day we've been waiting for for months! Say it with me!

Please?

re: #223 jcm

Are you saying Chuck Norris was afraid of them?

Vice versa.

re: #191 taxfreekiller

Should you come into close encounters with any of Al Gores mad global warming loons, hand them this link, Sept. 12, 2008 Arapahoe Basin Ski Area Colorado.
The top 4 photos,
[Link: www.arapahoebasin.com...]

I had one tell me that I was anti-science for not buying in to Gores program.
I just said, no I am anti junk scioence.I
In my opinion this orthodox belief in nonscientist Gore & the loons around him is like avoiding New Age heresy

re: #140 Thanos

Who is PZ?

re: #228 cliffster

what color is intelligence? or freedom?

Nice! Show me color, daniel-son :)

re: #213 Syrah

This is a day of Dead Cats.

This is probably not over yet.

Nope, with only 6 minutes to go, the Dow is up 391. The financial crisis is over, folks! Nothing to see here, move along. [whistling]

/

(Btw, "Dead cats"?)

re: #181 opnion

Come on, what did you do to get tossed?

Smokin' weed....It was the 70's!

re: #224 jill e

Most certainly...the seminaries were allowed to be havens of evil. Many of the really bad bishops in the US are in their 60s and 70s. Unfortunately, it may take their retirements to keep things rolling.

yep. I get alot of conservative Catholic publications, so, I am up on the latest stuff. a victory here, a victory there. the process is slow.

re: #225 Occasional Reader

In soviet union....
it turns out AIG owns a big piece of Vermont -the Stowe Mountain Ski Resort. Handy for organizing those last minute training classes.

re: #230 cicero05

This is start of the market turnaround, the day we've been waiting for for months! Say it with me!

Please?

Soon, we will have an opportunity to buy really good stuff at a fire sale price. This thing is only bad for those who sell here at the bottom.

re: #235 taxfreekiller

When you need a God, its better to have had a long duration relationship just before the ambush is tripped by your point man.

Or find a better point man?

re: #238 Vergeltung

yep. I get alot of conservative Catholic publications, so, I am up on the latest stuff. a victory here, a victory there. the process is slow.

Just out of curiosity, what conservative publications (I may need to add to my collection)?

re: #236 Occasional Reader

Dead cat bounce.

re: #49 zombie

You're being silly...(as well as overly literal)...tch,tch,tch...

re: #227 Ringo the Gringo

No nuns, they were Priests and Brothers.
One of my favorite teachers was a Priest who was also my science teacher.
He was a smart old guy....He rarely smiled and he smoked a pipe in class.
You don't find teachers like him anymore.

A Brother at St. Bonas taught me some AP history, and was a pipe smoker. He also was cool for a few beers and basketball with us. it was a time gone by for sure.....

re: #219 Peacekeeper

Not everyone lost out: Charlie Rangel got a nice seaside universe in the Bahamas...

Jamie Gorelick got 26 million from Fannie.

re: #240 Syrah

Soon, we will have an opportunity to buy really good stuff at a fire sale price. This thing is only bad for those who sell here at the bottom.

Those people who are buying at a really good stuff at a fire sale price will be buying from me, most likely.

re: #228 cliffster

what color is intelligence? or freedom?

Since we were told in no uncertain terms 167 is intelligence, and 167 = A7, the hex color for intelligence is 0000A7.

Freedom is Black.
//

re: #236 Occasional Reader

Dead cats.

re: #237 Ringo the Gringo

Smokin' weed....It was the 70's!

You are an honest man. You should have gotten a pass.
Maybe if you would have shared your stash. Oh wll , too late now.

re: #145 cliffster

Well you are, sort of. You're driving away creationist conservatives.

I'm a creationist Christian and I haven't been chased away.

I'm also open to just about all scientific theories explaning the creation of the heavens and the earth, regardless. For in my opinion, if evolution happened - God created it.

How do we know IMDB movie ratings are rigged? Simple, how else can you explain Delta Force, which has Chuck Norris killing Palistinian terrorists with Israeli help, not be the greatest movie of all time?

“One of the things that distinguishes man from the other animals is that he wants to know things, wants to find out what reality is like, simply for the sake of knowing. When that desire is completely quenched in anyone, I think he has become something less than human.” – C.S. Lewis, God in the Dock

re: #243 SummerSong

Dead cat bounce.

Ah.

But I thought that was Tuesday?

Can you get TWO bounces off a dead cat?

re: #6 beblebrox

I am not surprised at this at all. Having gone to Catholic High School back in the early 80's; we were always taught that the Biblical version of Creation was nothing more than moral allegory, and not to be taken as literal truth.

Yet the other day in a class I was substitute for the kids thought that any religious or priest who believed in evolution was a sinner. Sure I am a sinner, but not for believing in evolution. Lots of work to do yet in the Catholic school system!

re: #231 zombie

Vice versa.

Ahhh! I thought for a minute I was going to have to school you!
;-P

Stowe Mountain Resort is in the midst of a massive development project that includes the completion of a $200 million luxury hotel, dubbed Stowe Mountain Lodge. Much of the real estate has been sold to private investors, but the funding came from AIG Global Real Estate Investment Corp. AIG owns Mount Mansfield Ski. Co., the entity that operates Stowe Mountain Resort.

[Link: www.burlingtonfreepress.com...]