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US Rabbis Back Evolution, Oppose Creationism

Science | Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 6:34:59 pm PDT

Jewish leaders across the United States have signed a letter backing the theory of evolution and opposing creationism.

Go on with your bad selves, rabbis.

CHICAGO - For Rabbi Gary Gerson of the Oak Park Temple B’nai Abraham Zion, evolution does not oppose religious belief but strengthens it.

“If anything, it all the more underscores the magnificence of creation as the expression of some highest order,” Gerson said. “We as Jews every day praise God for the times and seasons and the order of being, and that perhaps is the greatest miracle of all. This is not caprice. There is a natural order to things.”

Seeing evidence of the divine in the theories of Charles Darwin meant that Gerson did not hesitate to sign an open letter drafted by a suburban Chicago rabbi this summer supporting the teaching of evolution in public schools. The two-paragraph letter, written by Rabbi David Oler of Congregation Beth Or in Deerfield, has attracted 235 signatures since its completion in July, with Jewish leaders from across the United States supporting its cause.

The effort, Oler said, spun off from the Clergy Letter Project, launched in 2004 by Michael Zimmerman, now the dean of the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at Butler University in Indianapolis. Zimmerman asked Christian clergy to draft an open letter, since signed by 11,000 religious leaders, supporting the public teaching of evolution and emphasizing that religion does not have to be an enemy of science.

But Oler, who also holds a doctorate in clinical psychology, felt that Jewish clergy should also be given an opportunity to endorse the teaching of evolution while rebuking the addition of creationist theories to curricula. “I would say that as Jews, being a minority, we’re particularly sensitive to not having the views of others imposed on us,” Oler said. “Creationism and intelligent design are particularly religious matters that don’t belong in public school system.”

Arguments over whether alternatives to evolution should be taught in public schools continue across the United States, most recently in state legislatures in Louisiana and Florida.

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208 comments

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1 abolitionist  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:37:43pm
Oler said. “Creationism and intelligent design are particularly religious matters that don’t belong in public school system.”


amen

2 North95  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:37:55pm

Amen.

3 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:39:44pm
“I would say that as Jews, being a minority, we’re particularly sensitive to not having the views of others imposed on us,”

I'm not a Jew, I'm an American and I therefore cherish my First Amendment Rights and I likewise am sensitive to people pushing their beliefs on me. Just one more way I'm proud to stand with members of the Jewish faith.

4 HelloDare  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:39:47pm

How many other people read the headline as US Rabbits Back Evolution?

5 kevinmumaw  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:40:11pm

Sorry for the OT: But has anyone been to SERE/C? At Ft Rucker specifically?

6 lifeofthemind  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:40:15pm

Wonder if Obama's Wife's relative Funnye is one of the signatories.

7 Alouette  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:43:37pm

About 30 years ago I heard a series of lectures by Rabbi Avigdor Miller, arguing against evolution. Now that I recall, it would seem that he got most of his arguments and talking points from...the Discovery Institute or whatever was its evolutionary predecessor in the 1970's.

Rabbi Miller was an excellent Talmudic scholar and ethical teacher, but not a scientist.

8 laZardo  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:45:36pm

So...Jews and Catholics back evolution, but many from the relatively newer Islamic faith don't?

/trying to grasp irony

9 HappyKafir  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:45:44pm

Why should we care about this?

10 Noam Sayin'  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:46:45pm

Well, here we go...

11 markx  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:46:52pm

Honey, pop some corn.

Another hot thread on LGF tonight!

12 jaunte  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:47:26pm

re: #9 HappyKafir

What do you mean when you say "we?"

13 alegrias  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:47:43pm

Hope no Rabbis backed inviting Ahmedinejad to break bread together in New York, like some sick "progressive" Council of Churches did. Talk about consorting with dinosaurs of the tyrannosaurus Iranosaurs kind.

14 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:48:08pm
For Rabbi Gary Gerson of the Oak Park Temple B’nai Abraham Zion, evolution does not oppose religious belief but strengthens it.

And it isn't just the Rabbi who feels that way.

Seeing evidence of the divine in the theories of Charles Darwin meant that Gerson did not hesitate to sign an open letter drafted by a suburban Chicago rabbi this summer supporting the teaching of evolution in public schools.

Good, these "open letters" allow the force of numbers to be seen.

I expect they could get some support from the Catholics in the area, if they wanted it - Catholics also would prefer not to have a "generic" Christian view imposed on our youth.

15 mikeymom  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:48:23pm

OT and desperate! i am computer-challenged for various reasons. i'm being bombarbed by a lib relative. please--can you guys send- to my e-mail addy- any links-ANY!- pro palin? esp regarding her NOT-book banning? i would like ANY pro mccain/palin links-esp thoes that contrast to obama- i sincerely appreciate the help--lizards rule!

16 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:48:37pm
17 JCM  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:49:02pm

re: #9 HappyKafir

Why should we care about this?

We, Kemosabi?

If you don't care why are you here?

18 jaunte  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:49:22pm

re: #15 mikeymom

Here's a link:
[Link: www.factcheck.org...]

19 mikeymom  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:49:29pm

thx

20 Alouette  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:49:30pm

You can praise the glory of the Creator and still study the methods of the Creator, "for whom a thousand years are as one moment"

21 EIDE_Interface  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:49:35pm

Good call Rabbis, no who do they want us to vote for? Will they be consistent with rationality and call on all Jews to vote for McCain?

22 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:49:47pm

re: #15 mikeymom

OT and desperate! i am computer-challenged for various reasons. i'm being bombarbed by a lib relative. please--can you guys send- to my e-mail addy- any links-ANY!- pro palin? esp regarding her NOT-book banning? i would like ANY pro mccain/palin links-esp thoes that contrast to obama- i sincerely appreciate the help--lizards rule!

Hang on, MikeyMom.
I've got a link to the actual list produced by the Wasilla Library of their "banned" books.
Let me find it
I've been in a contentious conversation myself today, with my loony leftist brother, who is otherwise a decent person. Just hang on . . .

23 EIDE_Interface  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:50:05pm

re: #16 buzzsawmonkey

While I agree with Rabbi Gerson that “Creationism and intelligent design are particularly religious matters that don’t belong in public school system,” it is necessary to point out that Oak Park Temple is part of the Reform movement, which does not even pretend to abide by Jewish religious law.

Who gets to decide how Jewish one is?

24 lobo91  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:51:01pm

re: #4 HelloDare

How many other people read the headline as US Rabbits Back Evolution?

/raises paw

I did!

25 Gang of One  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:51:36pm

In 1973 when I was attending a Modern Orthodox [frum] yeshiva, I had a rabbi who taught math and several religious subjects who adamantly refused to acknowledge evolution. With a straight face he would reply, when asked about the evidence of dinosaur bones and fossils, that "they were put there by Hashem to fool people."

I did not last very long at this yeshiva.

26 mikeymom  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:52:07pm

re: #22 reine.de.tout

how do i get my e-mail addy to show up?

27 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:52:13pm

re: #15 mikeymom

OT and desperate! i am computer-challenged for various reasons. i'm being bombarbed by a lib relative. please--can you guys send- to my e-mail addy- any links-ANY!- pro palin? esp regarding her NOT-book banning? i would like ANY pro mccain/palin links-esp thoes that contrast to obama- i sincerely appreciate the help--lizards rule!

Here is the link to The Official Wasilla Banned Books List

28 Killian Bundy  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:52:25pm

Don't make me mad.

/or I'll start posting 1611 King James translations of Genesis again

29 Alouette  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:52:42pm

re: #25 Gang of One

In 1973 when I was attending a Modern Orthodox [frum] yeshiva, I had a rabbi who taught math and several religious subjects who adamantly refused to acknowledge evolution. With a straight face he would reply, when asked about the evidence of dinosaur bones and fossils, that "they were put there by Hashem to fool people."

I did not last very long at this yeshiva.

Probably a disciple of Rabbi Avigdor Miller.

30 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:53:04pm

re: #26 mikeymom

how do i get my e-mail addy to show up?

When you are typing in comments, above the box where you are typing is your nic - there is a box "show email".
click that box and your e-mail will show up

but I posted the link above.

31 Gang of One  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:53:27pm

re: #23 EIDE_Interface

Who gets to decide how Jewish one is?

Usually the Chief Rabbi of an enclave, such as the Chief Rabbi of Israel. I thought you were banned already.

32 RirghtSideOfTheFence  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:53:55pm

re: #20 Alouette

You can praise the glory of the Creator and still study the methods of the Creator, "for whom a thousand years are as one moment"

I believe the Creator created physics as well.

33 EIDE_Interface  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:56:46pm

re: #31 Gang of One

Usually the Chief Rabbi of an enclave, such as the Chief Rabbi of Israel. I thought you were banned already.

Ah another intolerant one. Chief Rabbis deciding those kind of things? You have got to be kidding me.

34 kemaste  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:57:43pm

Both of the Rabbi's mentioned in the article are Reform or "Progressive" Reform which means they do not adhere to the Torah or Halachah.
Your article has no credibility with observant Jews - meaning Orthodox Jews. Not Jews who have gay, lesbian and trans gendered Shabbat and "Tikkun Olam" for our Palestinian brother...sigh.... Those are the Jews who 'disinvited" Sarah Palin from the Ahmadinejad protest and now they are representative of American Jews?

35 mikeymom  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:58:22pm

re: #30 reine.de.tout

tyvm

36 Gang of One  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:58:39pm

re: #33 EIDE_Interface

Ah another intolerant one. Chief Rabbis deciding those kind of things? You have got to be kidding me.

You are not Jewish. This is evident. Who, then should decide?

37 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:58:47pm
38 Gang of One  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 6:59:50pm

re: #37 ploome hineni

I do

Are you the Ploomezer Rebbe?

39 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:00:29pm
40 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:00:35pm

O Lord my God, When I in awesome wonder,
Consider all the worlds Thy Hands have made;
I see the stars, I hear the rolling thunder,
Thy power throughout the universe displayed.

Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art.
Then sings my soul, My Saviour God, to Thee,
How great Thou art, How great Thou art!

When through the woods, and forest glades I wander,
And hear the birds sing sweetly in the trees.
When I look down, from lofty mountain grandeur
And see the brook, and feel the gentle breeze.

SNIP

41 jaunte  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:01:28pm

Here's a link to the letter and signatures:
[Link: www.butler.edu...]

42 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:02:38pm
43 Zevy  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:02:47pm

Orthodox Judaism does not believe in evolution, and therefore obviously does not teach it in its schools. We won't force our beliefs on others, and expect the same in return.

44 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:03:13pm
45 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:03:28pm

re: #25 Gang of One

In 1973 when I was attending a Modern Orthodox [frum] yeshiva, I had a rabbi who taught math and several religious subjects who adamantly refused to acknowledge evolution. With a straight face he would reply, when asked about the evidence of dinosaur bones and fossils, that "they were put there by Hashem to fool people."

I did not last very long at this yeshiva.

The Aish HaTorah yeshiva in Jerusalem has several lecturers on their audio MP3 site who are Orthodox Jewish physicists. They explain why the Torah and science don't contradict each other. Their lectures on the Aish HaTorah site are absolutely wonderful.

46 mikeymom  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:03:34pm

re: #18 jaunte

thanks--this relative is sooo annoying--glad to send her back some facts--just didnt know how--(hangs luddite head in shame!)

47 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:04:37pm
48 jaunte  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:05:13pm

re: #46 mikeymom

I'm happy to help; the spate of overheated false rumors around Palin is surprising.

49 Salamantis  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:05:41pm

re: #46 mikeymom

thanks--this relative is sooo annoying--glad to send her back some facts--just didnt know how--(hangs luddite head in shame!)

You might also mention that several of the books on that fake list that was circulating were not even published while Sarah Palin was mayor of Wasilla; it is actually a list of all books for which a remove request has been filed, across the nation.

50 Gang of One  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:06:14pm

re: #33 EIDE_Interface

Ah another intolerant one. Chief Rabbis deciding those kind of things? You have got to be kidding me.

Listen, EIDE:

You ask a legitimate question but your initial reaction is terribly adolescent and ignorant. Our history is steeped in an infinite number of questions regarding the meaning[s] of this verse or that, this word or that, in the Torah, the Prophets and the Writings -- all together TANACH, an acronym for the Hebrew words Torah, Novi'im and K'tuvim. The qusetion of who is a Jew, what constitutes a Jewish soul has never, IIRC, never really been settled. Ther are so many points of view, so many opinions. And there is a great article in this month's Commentary magazine about Jewish DNA. Check it out if you truly want to be educated on this question.

51 jcw46  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:07:03pm

As I've become older and seen the range of jackassery that humankind can get up to, I've begun to feel that Ian Anderson had it right in "Bungle in the Jungle":

Walking through forests of palm tree apartments ---
scoff at the monkeys who live in their dark tents
down by the waterhole --- drunk every Friday ---
eating their nuts --- saving their raisins for Sunday.
Lions and tigers who wait in the shadows ---
they're fast but they're lazy, and sleep in green meadows.

Let's bungle in the jungle --- well, that's all right by me.
I'm a tiger when I want love,
but I'm a snake if we disagree.

Just say a word and the boys will be right there:
with claws at your back to send a chill through the night air.
Is it so frightening to have me at your shoulder?
Thunder and lightning couldn't be bolder.
I'll write on your tombstone, ``I thank you for dinner.''
This game that we animals play is a winner.

Let's bungle in the jungle --- well, that's all right by me.
I'm a tiger when I want love,
but I'm a snake if we disagree.

The rivers are full of crocodile nasties
and He who made kittens put snakes in the grass.
He's a lover of life but a player of pawns ---
yes, the King on His sunset lies waiting for dawn
to light up His Jungle
as play is resumed.

The monkeys seem willing to strike up the tune.

copyright Ian Anderson

The world, nay the universe was created to pass eternity.

I see the creator sitting on it's throne or whatever and a big bowl of popcorn by it's side while watching the antics of all it's creations.

52 Gang of One  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:08:25pm

re: #39 buzzsawmonkey

A most interesting question, since the Reform movement intentionally broke with the entirety of the Jewish people by adopting patrilineal descent to shore up its dwindling numbers.

For more than 2000 years, whether or not one was a Jew was determined by whether or not one's mother was a Jew--regardless of one's level of religious observance. This meant that whether or not one was "religious," one was still a Jew--and any Jew could marry any other Jew according to religious law.

Even the Reform Movement, which jettisoned the bulk of traditional Jewish observance in the course of the rush to assimilate after the Jews of Europe were emancipated, did not abandon matrilineal descent until the last decade or two, when the vast numbers of intermarriages threatened to wipe them out. Rather than retain this one last tenet of religious law, the Reform Movement jettisoned it--with the result that the halachic status of Reform Jews (i.e., whether or not they are Jews) is increasingly suspect among Conservative as well as Orthodox Jews.

This is also a very good essay.

53 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:09:57pm

re: #43 Zevy

Orthodox Judaism does not believe in evolution, and therefore obviously does not teach it in its schools. We won't force our beliefs on others, and expect the same in return.

Orthodox Judaism doesn't have a contradiction between the Torah and science. Jews have been standouts in medicine (and now science) for many 100s of years. Maimonides was a doctor as well as a great Jewish scholar and sage.

54 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:11:42pm

re: #47 buzzsawmonkey

Mandy: You may want to see this post.

Can I sit in your reception area for a few weeks?

Unfuckingbelievable. Awesome.

55 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:12:03pm
56 Gang of One  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:13:40pm

re: #44 ploome hineni

vu den?

I dunno, someplace close by, I guess?

57 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:14:43pm

Does anyone know if any other branches of Judaism or Jewish religious bodies in the US have taken a stand on the issue in question?

58 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:16:06pm
59 Bubblehead II  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:16:14pm

re: #40 MandyManners

I actually prefer the Statler Brothers rendition.

60 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:16:47pm

re: #55 buzzsawmonkey

Shout out to bigot Jim D, the Stealth Downdinger!

Huh?

61 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:18:08pm

re: #59 Bubblehead II

I actually prefer the Statler Brothers rendition.

I was raised in a church of Christ so, I'm not into instrumental music in church. What I linked to was the ONLY thing I could find.

62 Zevy  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:18:55pm

re: #53 Adina in Judea

Orthodox Judaism doesn't have a contradiction between the Torah and science.

True. I've heard the lectures myself. But some here seem to make fun of the explanation of how they don't contradict.

63 jcm  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:20:05pm

re: #55 buzzsawmonkey

Shout out to bigot Jim D, the Stealth Downdinger!

In think Lizards should earn dinging rights.

64 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:20:39pm

"Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind the discernible laws and connections there remains something subtle, intangible, and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent, I am, in fact religious." -A. Einstein

65 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:21:00pm
66 Wendya  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:21:59pm

re: #9 HappyKafir

Why should we care about this?

Well, you obviously cared enough not only to read the opening but to post as well.

67 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:22:01pm

re: #64 merrytexas

"Try and penetrate with our limited means the secrets of nature and you will find that, behind the discernible laws and connections there remains something subtle, intangible, and inexplicable. Veneration for this force beyond anything that we can comprehend is my religion. To that extent, I am, in fact religious." -A. Einstein

And in that same sense I'm religious too. Old Al got that one right.

68 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:22:24pm
69 Bubblehead II  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:24:30pm

re: #61 MandyManners

Well I grew up in a family big on Guitar/Gospel music so I have an affinity to it and I just like the Statler Brothers. Wonder if Don Williams did any Gospel. Think I will take a look around.

BBIW

70 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:24:53pm

re: #57 Moe Katz

Head of Orthodox Union: "I believe in Evolution"
Category: General
Posted at: 04:40 AM - 05 Jan 2006

Rabbi Zvi Hirsh Weinreb, in Q and A in Haaretz, says categorically that he sees no reason why Orthodox jews cannot fully accept the scientific proofs of history (see question about two-thirds of the way down).

"Let me explain my position. I am convinced that there is a strong scientific case to be made for Darwin's theory of evolution as it is currently understood."

Orthodox Union works on behalf of roughly 1000 Orthodox synagogues in the U.S.

Rabbi Dr. Tzvi Hersh Weinreb

Intelligent Design calls to our attention the amazing complexity of the universe. That is descriptive science and should be part of all courses in biology and chemistry. However, the conclusion that such complexity is proof positive of a Creator, as Judaism or other religions understand such a creator, is faith, not science, and as such has no place in the curricula of the public schools in the United States, where separation of Church from State is a fundamental national premise.

In a religious school, particularly in a Jewish school, I would advocate that evolution as understood by the scientific establishment be taught in courses of science, and that Intelligent Design be taught in courses of Jewish thought, i.e. Machshevet Yisrael and religious hashkafah.

71 Killian Bundy  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:26:56pm

re: #65 buzzsawmonkey

I was saying "Hi!" to stealth downdinger Jim D, who favored me with his attention on post #39 upthread. Jim D is part of the Creationist Thread Downding Gang which comes on to downding any post in a creationism-related thread that they think might have even the slightest pro-religion bent. Jim D is one of the most avid downdingers, with the least actual postings, of this crowd.

Too bad they won't reveal themselves.

/because I have a few questions to ask these "Christians" directly

72 pocomoco  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:27:55pm

Once again I must ask: WHERE IN THE CONSTITUTION DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT THE SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE?

It does not exists!

The only reference regarding the separation of church and state was a statement made by Thomas Jefferson in his personal papers that, those who are demanding separation like the ACLU, have convince the public that it in the Constitution.

The First Amendment states: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;

And that’s all!

73 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:28:39pm

re: #70 Adina in Judea

Excellent, thank you.

74 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:31:13pm

re: #65 buzzsawmonkey

I was saying "Hi!" to stealth downdinger Jim D, who favored me with his attention on post #39 upthread. Jim D is part of the Creationist Thread Downding Gang which comes on to downding any post in a creationism-related thread that they think might have even the slightest pro-religion bent. Jim D is one of the most avid downdingers, with the least actual postings, of this crowd.

Well, I cancelled it out.

75 Killian Bundy  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:33:43pm

For instance, I can fire up more than 25 English taranslations of Genesis on one screen.

Help me out here.

/where does it say 6000 years, where are the dinosaurs?

76 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:33:56pm
77 docremulac  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:35:17pm

Apologies to Charles and the rest of my distinguished lizard brethren but you're all wrong about evolution.

The REAL truth about evolution. A short musical documentary.

78 jcm  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:35:38pm

re: #71 Killian Bundy

Too bad they won't reveal themselves.

/because I have a few questions to ask these "Christians" directly

This Christian's has a few questions also.

Trust me they won't like mine.

79 kafir  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:37:36pm

Homeys doing good. Now lets see them back a reasonable presidential candidate.

80 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:38:27pm

re: #75 Killian Bundy

As explained last night, the Hebrew Calendar is the source of the "6000 years," although there is a misunderstanding by some about what this means.

The Hebrew Calendar starts at the end of the creation, not at the beginning. The current year is 5768 (and it will change in a little over a week from now.)

The counting of the years happens on the anniversary of events on the 6th day of creation. The length of time (in our perspective) of a "day" in the Creator's terms is most likely in billions of years. Thus, the six days of creation most likely occurred over the course of ~15 billion years in all.

81 jcw46  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:39:30pm

This just in: Jim D. and the Downding Gang, downdinged by downdinged dinger; now number 1 on "Buzz Saw's Top Ten List" of "Bottom-feeding, Ball-less Wonders on LGF.

re: #63 jcm
I agree and I'm a newbie. Was surprised to find I could "rate" someone else's post fresh out of the box. Maybe have some way of raters not being anonymous. (I know they can be seen IF you're using spy and see the actual ding but can you go back in the past and see who dinged who?)

82 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:40:54pm
83 Alouette  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:41:37pm

re: #81 jcw46

This just in: Jim D. and the Downding Gang, downdinged by downdinged dinger; now number 1 on "Buzz Saw's Top Ten List" of "Bottom-feeding, Ball-less Wonders on LGF.


I agree and I'm a newbie. Was surprised to find I could "rate" someone else's post fresh out of the box. Maybe have some way of raters not being anonymous. (I know they can be seen IF you're using spy and see the actual ding but can you go back in the past and see who dinged who?)

If you click on the # of dings, you can see who dinged. As I recall this particular feature was added when a now-banned lizard complained about getting too many down dings and people were "ganging up" on her.

84 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:41:37pm
85 jcm  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:42:35pm

re: #81 jcw46

Dingers who don't participate in the debates are cowards.

Psssst, Christians are bold about their faith, not cowards.

86 jcw46  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:43:10pm

re: #76 buzzsawmonkey
Maybe they're ATHEISTS? (just returning the blanket labeling assumption).

87 Wendya  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:44:23pm

re: #72 pocomoco

or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;


Who is prohibiting your free exercise of religion?

In case you've been asleep at the switch the last decade or so, there are very valid reasons to ensure one particular religion is not reflected in our government and that includes public schools which are run by government.

88 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:44:44pm
89 sparrowlake  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:44:46pm
“Creationism and intelligent design are particularly religious matters that don’t belong in public school system.”

Good evening, LGF, and mazel tov.
Interesting that the Rabbis position is that ID/Creationism should not be taught in public schools at all. This goes one step further than the commonly enunciated view that ID/Creationism should not be taught in the science classrooms of public schools.
The Rabbis' position is in my view the correct one in that it seeks to protect public school students from religious instruction of any kind by teachers who are almost certainly unqualified to provide such instruction.

90 jcm  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:45:06pm

re: #86 jcw46

Maybe they're ATHEISTS? (just returning the blanket labeling assumption).

There's a pattern going way back on ID threads. They could hold up in honest debate so they went underground.

91 jcm  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:45:41pm

re: #88 buzzsawmonkey

I would not speculate. For my money, anyone who lets their pluses and minuses speak for them without having the guts to speak on their own behalf is a sheep.

BAAAAAAAAA!
/

I smell mutton!

92 jaunte  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:45:49pm

re: #88 buzzsawmonkey

Sheepish dinging is baaaaaad.

93 Alouette  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:46:18pm

re: #88 buzzsawmonkey

I would not speculate. For my money, anyone who lets their pluses and minuses speak for them without having the guts to speak on their own behalf is a sheep shmuck

94 jcw46  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:46:39pm

re: #85 jcm

Hmm. Does that apply to all dingers or only down dingers? I've updinged and down dinged stuff I agree/disagree with but haven't participated in the debate because the discussion was already 200+ comments away by then. I have participated in similar discussions before or after so maybe that's ok as my opinion has been made known by myself publicly.

95 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:48:10pm
96 Jim D  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:49:42pm

ahh...loving christians.
sadly typical

97 jcm  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:50:00pm

re: #94 jcw46

Hmm. Does that apply to all dingers or only down dingers? I've updinged and down dinged stuff I agree/disagree with but haven't participated in the debate because the discussion was already 200+ comments away by then. I have participated in similar discussions before or after so maybe that's ok as my opinion has been made known by myself publicly.

No just the stealth dingers who go to an ID thread after it's dead and ding everything down.

98 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:50:50pm
99 jcw46  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:50:54pm

BTW. See now, I didn't know about clicking on the ding count to get the names. (and I don't click on stuff unless I know what's gonna happen).

There's a lot of crypto-lizard site-lore. Is there a place where these tidbits are accesible? Maybe there should be? You know like a FAQ or something? Just askin' :>

100 jcm  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:51:04pm

re: #96 Jim D

ahh...loving christians.
sadly typical

Sadly true, I've ripped into my fellow Christians a couple of times for the testimony this presents.

101 Wendya  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:51:38pm

re: #97 jcm

No just the stealth dingers who go to an ID thread after it's dead and ding everything down.

I noticed that a couple of weeks ago.

Do those people ever contribute....anything?

102 jcw46  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:51:50pm

re: #96 Jim D
'preciate the small c there in christian.

103 jcm  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:52:46pm

re: #101 Wendya

I noticed that a couple of weeks ago.

Do those people ever contribute....anything?

Not that I recall.

104 sparrowlake  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:53:07pm

re: #101 Wendya

I noticed that a couple of weeks ago.

Do those people ever contribute....anything?

BIG STEALTH DINGERS ARE RIPPING US OFF!

105 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:53:31pm

re: #101 Wendya

I noticed that a couple of weeks ago.

Do those people ever contribute....anything?

You'd probably be better off not reading them anyway. They practice the old maxim of it being better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and prove you're one.

106 Richard Romano  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 7:54:02pm

There's nothing new here -- most Rabbis do not treat Genesis as literal, but symbolic...and most Jewish people do not accept the divinity of the Torah either. Nothing new here, just more elephant hurling.

107 Alouette  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:01:51pm

re: #106 Richard Romano

There's nothing new here -- most Rabbis do not treat Genesis as literal, but symbolic...and most Jewish people do not accept the divinity of the Torah either. Nothing new here, just more elephant hurling.

If you count all of the Jewish people who ever lived from the giving of the Torah until today, you will find that most Jewish people do accept the divinity of the Torah. The descendants of those who do not, are not going to remain Jews in a generation or two.

108 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:01:55pm

I like the new shade of red on the dings.

109 Laura SF  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:02:25pm

I have a friend who is strictly Orthodox - modern enough to work in high tech, but otherwise nearly black-hat. He personally doesn't believe in evolution, but when asked, he stated that there is no traditional problem with belief in evolution. The standard rabbinical approach is that the story of Creation is metaphorical and doesn't have to be understood literally. Therefore, it is completely possible that (more-or-less modern) Orthodox rabbis were signatories to this letter - not just Reform or even Conservative ones.

110 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:04:50pm

re: #106 Richard Romano

There's nothing new here -- most Rabbis do not treat Genesis as literal, but symbolic...and most Jewish people do not accept the divinity of the Torah either. Nothing new here, just more elephant hurling.

Orthodox Jews (that is, Jews who observe Judaism as it has been observed for 3300 years) absolutely do see the Torah as being given to us by the Creator.

Non-religious Jews tend to fall away over time. It's been the religious Jews who have kept the Jewish people going for the last 3300 years. The religious Jewish population is rebounding now thanks to Jewish outreach programs that are bringing many Jews back to the fold of religious observance. These families have many children who keep the religion going when they grow up.

Eventually, religious Jews will outnumber non-religious Jews again (in Israel and in the U.S.) Religious Jews are mostly Republicans, by the way.

111 Age Of Freedom  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:06:03pm

Word!

112 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:07:22pm

re: #107 Alouette

re: #106 Richard Romano

There's nothing new here -- most Rabbis do not treat Genesis as literal, but symbolic...and most Jewish people do not accept the divinity of the Torah either. Nothing new here, just more elephant hurling.

If you count all of the Jewish people who ever lived from the giving of the Torah until today, you will find that most Jewish people do accept the divinity of the Torah. The descendants of those who do not, are not going to remain Jews in a generation or two.

Yes - this is what I also tried to say in #110. Thanks.

113 sparrowlake  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:08:30pm

re: #106 Richard Romano

There's nothing new here -- most Rabbis do not treat Genesis as literal, but symbolic...and most Jewish people do not accept the divinity of the Torah either. Nothing new here, just more elephant hurling.

What is "new" is that the Rabbis have spoken out en masse against the views of those who advocate teaching of religion in non-science classes in the public schools. The elephant in the room is the Constitution.

114 Alouette  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:15:10pm

re: #112 Adina in Judea

Yes - this is what I also tried to say in #110. Thanks.

To make it even more clear:

I have 9 kids and 21 (& counting) grandkids which means that I, personally, created 30 Jews.

How many non-observant Jews can make that claim?

115 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:16:29pm

The Torah isn't a history book or a science book, so although the Torah is true, there are certainly things in the Torah that are meant to help us understand larger concepts rather than being technical documentation about the universe.

The sages tell us that the purpose of Genesis was to show the Creator's authority in giving Jews a specific (but very tiny) place to live. He made everything, so He has the authority to tell Jews 180 times in the Torah that the tiny land of Israel is ours and make it stick with us. It's no accident that we needed to be told 180 times either and it's significant that He said it this many times: 18 (Chai) x 10.

Genesis is fascinating and a very good narrative. The details that we find in science don't take anything away from the Torah.

116 Slumbering Behemoth  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:18:04pm

re: #88 buzzsawmonkey

I would not speculate. For my money, anyone who lets their pluses and minuses speak for them without having the guts to speak on their own behalf is a sheep.

I've referred to some as a "sewing circle of malignant busy-bodies"; coined specifically for the little coven of folks that habitually down-ding anything remotely related to (OMG!) science, without ever posting a comment on any given thread that I have seen.

There are some of the same down-ding my metal links, but I can't complain about that. That is a matter of taste, and I can't expect everyone to share my love of metal.

117 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:18:26pm

re: #114 Alouette

I have 9 kids and 21 (& counting) grandkids which means that I, personally, created 30 Jews.

How many non-observant Jews can make that claim?

Wonderful!

118 ludwigvanquixote  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:19:10pm

Just a few points to clairify for some people here.

First off, there are some Orthodox Jews who take a creationist stance. Not all do. Many, many do not. I am both observant and a physicist. I personally, even from a gemara educated background, do not see any contradictions. Also, many frum rabbis take a similar stance to mine. Judaism is not monolithic, even within the observant community.

As to the Rav who said that Hashem actively fooled people, I can only sigh. One could ask him then what he means when he says Adonai elo'chaichem emet (the Lord your G-d is Truth) every day...

As to the nature of Reform Jews. Reform Jews are indeed Jews. The only requirement to be a Jew, is that your mother was a Jew. You can also convert to Judaism, but that is another discussion.

The point made by some of my fellow tribe member lizards is rather that Reform Jews, who by and large, reject both Jewish law and Jewish tradition should not be considered authorities on either subject. While I am opposed to speaking Loshan Ha Ra about Reform Jews, I will say that I agree with this stance. There is a certain central corpus of Jewish writing and Jewish learning (Mishna, Gemara, Midrash the Rishonim etc...) that most Reform Jews have never heard of, let alone studied.

119 jcm  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:20:24pm

re: #115 Adina in Judea

From the Christian (mine and many others) perspective, the same can be said.

120 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:24:18pm

re: #107 Alouette

If you count all of the Jewish people who ever lived from the giving of the Torah until today, you will find that most Jewish people do accept the divinity of the Torah. The descendants of those who do not, are not going to remain Jews in a generation or two.

In the diaspora, yes, this is the tendency for the most part. In Israel, however, it is possible to live as a secular Jew and transmit your Jewishness to your descendants. Israel is not a frummie monoculture and I hope it never becomes one.

121 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:26:28pm

re: #118 ludwigvanquixote

First off, there are some Orthodox Jews who take a creationist stance. Not all do. Many, many do not. I am both observant and a physicist. I personally, even from a gemara educated background, do not see any contradictions. Also, many frum rabbis take a similar stance to mine. Judaism is not monolithic, even within the observant community.

Some of my alltime favorite Aish HaTorah MP3 lectures have been from Orthodox Jewish physicists! I love the perspective of observant and scientific!

I'm not a physicist but I am graduate school educated in math and computer science, so I'm always interested in hearing about technical/scientific matters. Hearing about them from Orthodox physicists is a tremendous joy for me.

I am totally in agreement with you in seeing no contradictions between science and Judaism. It's nice to see your post here!

122 LudwigVanQuixote  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:28:49pm

re: #121 Adina in Judea

Thank you very much! Where in Judea are you?

123 Alouette  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:31:40pm

re: #120 Moe Katz

In the diaspora, yes, this is the tendency for the most part. In Israel, however, it is possible to live as a secular Jew and transmit your Jewishness to your descendants. Israel is not a frummie monoculture and I hope it never becomes one.

Agreed, Israel is much different, however the religious population, both haredi ("ultra-Orthodox" and dati leumi ("religious nationalist") is growing at a much higher rate than the seculars, and the seculars are also most likely to leave Israel where the diaspora assimilation machine will kick in. The religious culture is far from being monolithic. There are Sephardim, Mizrachim, Temanim (Yemenite). Ashkenazim, Lithuanian, assorted flavors of Hasidim, from Satmar to Chabad to Breslov, to many others.

124 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:33:17pm

re: #122 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you very much! Where in Judea are you?

I live in Ma'aleh Adumim, but I'm in the States at the moment due to a job where I need to be onsite in Research Triangle Park for awhile (Raleigh, North Carolina.) After that, I'll go home and work remotely.

125 LudwigVanQuixote  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:33:33pm

re: #115 Adina in Judea

The sages tell us that the purpose of Genesis was to show the Creator's authority in giving Jews a specific (but very tiny) place to live. He made everything, so He has the authority to tell Jews 180 times in the Torah that the tiny land of Israel is ours and make it stick with us. It's no accident that we needed to be told 180 times either and it's significant that He said it this many times: 18 (Chai) x 10.

Genesis is fascinating and a very good narrative. The details that we find in science don't take anything away from the Torah.

I always loved that Rashi... As to the science, it has been my experience that the more science one knows the easier it is to clear up theological questions.

126 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:35:51pm

re: #123 Alouette

Glad you were still reading the thread, I was afraid I'd dropped my post into the void! I agree the religious have a higher birthrate, but I don't see the secular Jew as becoming an endangered species in Israel in my lifetime.

Shavua tov

127 LudwigVanQuixote  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:36:53pm

re: #126 Moe Katz

Glad you were still reading the thread, I was afraid I'd dropped my post into the void! I agree the religious have a higher birthrate, but I don't see the secular Jew as becoming an endangered species in Israel in my lifetime.

Shavua tov

I have to agree with Moe on this.

128 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:38:33pm

re: #123 Alouette

Agreed, Israel is much different, however the religious population, both haredi ("ultra-Orthodox" and dati leumi ("religious nationalist") is growing at a much higher rate than the seculars

Yup! Religious Jewish families are having 8 - 10 kids while secular families are having slightly less than 2 per family, I think.

Awhile back I read that roughly half of the school children in Israel are religious (right now!) even though the overall population in Israel is mostly secular. This is sort of a religious Jewish baby boom. :)

129 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:38:55pm

P.S. Dare I say it: If Israel ever manages some kind of long-term cold peace with the Arabs, diaspora Jews may feel less pressure from the Gentile world and be more ready to embrace their Jewishness in the liberal branches of Judaism or even as secular Jews.

130 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:42:10pm

Peace would also greatly reduce the yerida problem and make aliya more attractive to such Jews.

131 Adina in Judea  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 8:44:10pm

re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote

I always loved that Rashi...

Me, too!

As to the science, it has been my experience that the more science one knows the easier it is to clear up theological questions.

Yes! And Rambam said that we are obligated to use our brains!

I love the Jewish Philosophy series (based somewhat on "Guide to the Perplexed") on Aish's audio site.

Nice to see you here!

Shavua Tov (and Lylah Tov!)

Goodnight, LGF.

132 Kefirah  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:04:40pm

re: #39 buzzsawmonkey

i can attest to the negative repercussions of that decision -

as a direct result, my parents felt fine raising us [their children] with both religions. it was not until i got to college that i felt really at home in a jewish setting...

and found out that i did not count.

i took steps to rectify the situation, of course, including seeking an orthodox beit din, but for every patrilineal jew like myself that comes "back," you lose so, so many...

there are no easy answers. but the situation breaks my heart. in these days leading up to the new year and the days of awe, we should focus on k'lal yisrael, bringing our people together - not finding ways to drive a further wedge between movements [that goes for everyone.]

133 David Simon  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:05:19pm

re: #129 Moe Katz

If Israel ever manages some kind of long-term cold peace with the Arabs

That's funny; or at least sureal.

diaspora Jews may feel less pressure from the Gentile world

What about the pressure from the Jewish world? To conform to the ideals that have nothing to do with Judaism? Global warming, abortion, socialism WTF?!

How do we "embrace our Jewishness" when that kind of nonsense pervades?

The ignorance - the sophistry that "Palestinians" (whatever the hell that term means) are everyone's problem - abounds in our own communities. How can we possibly hope that the "Gentile world" will put less pressure on us, when we can't even control the idiots in our midst?

134 NY Nana  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:07:47pm

I notice that a lot of the Rabbis who signed were female, and thus not observant. I do not accept a female as a Rabbi, even though we are not Orthodox.

I worry about the Jews in the Diaspora, as more and more non-Orthodox temples merge and then close. We observe Kashrut, and have to go to Brooklyn and LI now to get kosher meat.

And the Jewish population of LI is shrinking, and it seems to be where we live, also.

135 NY Nana  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:12:11pm

re: #118 ludwigvanquixote

The enormous problem among many, in the reform movement, and I assume among the reconstuctionists, is that they accept the baby of a non-Jewish mother and Jewish father as a Jew.

136 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:24:55pm

re: #133 David Simon

What about the pressure from the Jewish world? To conform to the ideals that have nothing to do with Judaism? Global warming, abortion, socialism WTF?!

How do we "embrace our Jewishness" when that kind of nonsense pervades?

The ignorance - the sophistry that "Palestinians" (whatever the hell that term means) are everyone's problem - abounds in our own communities. How can we possibly hope that the "Gentile world" will put less pressure on us, when we can't even control the idiots in our midst?

David,

I doubt you are still around to read this. In any case, it sounds like we are too far apart on matters of basic values to be able to talk fruitfully (on this subject at least).

Shavua Tov,

Moe

137 WrathofG-d  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:33:02pm

I don't know if anyone is still talking about these G-dless charlatans parading around as so-called rabbis, but REFORM is NOT JUDAISM!

This has nothing to do with whether or not evolution is or is against the teachings of the Torah, but Reformism is bull....its has less in common with Judaism than Christianity does.

138 WrathofG-d  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:34:06pm

re: #134 NY Nana

I notice that a lot of the Rabbis who signed were female, and thus not observant. I do not accept a female as a Rabbi, even though we are not Orthodox.

I worry about the Jews in the Diaspora, as more and more non-Orthodox temples merge and then close. We observe Kashrut, and have to go to Brooklyn and LI now to get kosher meat.

And the Jewish population of LI is shrinking, and it seems to be where we live, also.

Everytime you find something unJewish parading around as Jewish....its these p.o.s. reformist leaders calling themselves Rabbis!

139 David Simon  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:47:30pm

re: #136 Moe Katz

David,

I doubt you are still around to read this. In any case, it sounds like we are too far apart on matters of basic values to be able to talk fruitfully (on this subject at least).

Shavua Tov,

Moe

Perhaps you are right; we'll never see eye to eye. That doesn't mean that I'm not interested in what you have to say.

140 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:49:40pm

David, I'd still rather have environmentalist, tikkun olam hippie Jews inside the tent than outside of it.

141 David Simon  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 9:59:03pm

re: #140 Moe Katz

David, I'd still rather have environmentalist, tikkun olam hippie Jews inside the tent than outside of it.

Then we'll agree to disagree. But please know that I still respect you - even if I don't respect the Michael Lerner acolytes you want to try to drag, kicking and screaming, into the real world.

142 Lynn B.  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:00:44pm

It's interesting that of all the forms of religious bigotry, the one that seems the most easily accepted here (by commenters ... this is not directed at Charles) is intra-Jewish hatred.

Let me remind you of what you need no reminder of ... what caused the destruction of the Second Temple?

I was raised Reform and found it unfulfilling. Despite a long family history, no one in my family has any connection to it any more. In fact, my brother has gone to the opposite extreme. But it's ridiculous and petty to say that Reform has less in common with Judaism than Christianity, especially more recently, when Reform has progressed quite a bit from the days when no Hebrew was used in their services, their rabbis were called ministers and men were requested to remove their hats if they dared to show up at "temple" wearing a kippa.

Rosh Hashana is a week away. So I suggest that some people here consider tempering their remarks.

Unfortunately, this is a drive-by. I was here way too late last night. I'll check in tomorrow and take my lashes.

P.S. re: #129 Moe Katz

P.S. Dare I say it: If Israel ever manages some kind of long-term cold peace with the Arabs, diaspora Jews may feel less pressure from the Gentile world and be more ready to embrace their Jewishness in the liberal branches of Judaism or even as secular Jews.

Unfortunately, it's not up to Israel to "manage." Is there was any peace, cold, warm or tepid, that could have been established between Israel and the Arabs, Israel would have embraced it ... did attempt it ... long ago. But, frankly, I can't imagine what that could possibly have to do with the readiness of diaspora Jews to embrace their Jewishness. "The Gentile world" isn't monolithic and much of it applauds Israel's standing up to the bullies in the neighborhood. But none of that has anything to do with Jewish self-identification. There are plenty of Jews, too many Jews, who embrace their Jewishness but are indifferent to Israel. And others who embrace Israel but want nothing to do with Jewishness.

143 sparrowlake  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:06:07pm

re: #138 WrathofG-d

Everytime you find something unJewish parading around as Jewish....its these p.o.s. reformist leaders calling themselves Rabbis!

The way you talk is a real shanda - it brings shame not only on you but on all Jews who listen to your hateful arrogance in silence.

144 sparrowlake  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:08:25pm

re: #137 WrathofG-d

I don't know if anyone is still talking about these G-dless charlatans parading around as so-called rabbis, but REFORM is NOT JUDAISM!

This has nothing to do with whether or not evolution is or is against the teachings of the Torah, but Reformism is bull....its has less in common with Judaism than Christianity does.

Bullshit.
Who appointed you religious inquisitioner?

145 papa_giorgio  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:08:30pm

.

May I suggest that these liberal Rabbi's read a book or two by Jewish Scientist Dr. Lee Spetner called Not by Chance: Shattering the Modern Theory of Evolution:

Dr. Spetner has been active for more than forty years in military-systems development, about 20 years with the Applied Physics Laboratory of the Johns Hopkins University and about 20 years with Elbit Systems, Ltd. in Israel. He received a degree in mechanical engineering from Washington University in 1945 and the Ph.D. in physics from MIT in 1950. In the course of his career he has taught graduate courses in engineering, physics, and mathematics. For many years he taught statistical communication theory at the Johns Hopkins University and later at the Weizman Institute of Science. He developed an interest in biology and evolution when he spent a year in the biophysics department of the Johns Hopkins University in 1963-64. In 1997 he published a book Not By Chance! that shows why neo-Darwinian theory cannot explain the development of life. He is retired and living in Jerusalem, but he is still active, doing research in biology and evolution.

Another book that I recommend for these Rabbi's to get back on the conservative track that is embedded in their faith is a book by a Rabbi entitled, America's Real War.

That's it. I have read quite a bit on this subject and I guarantee you that these Rabbi's haven't looked at all sides of the issue. Which is typically why when even the chief editor of Skeptic magazine debates a young earth creationist, he (and generally "they) loose. I have every debate -- by-the-by -- that Dr. William Lane Craig has on DVD, and every debate by others of ID, creationist, theist, etc with leading skeptics. I want to see all sides presented in a logical well-thought out manner so I can decide. When the atheist editors at Prometheus Books sponsored a debate to publish in book form -- Does God Exist? -- admitted the winner in the debate (and the printed commentary by fellow atheists and theists) was Dr. J.P. Moreland, well, that is saying something.

Again, for anyone who wishes to engage in true dialogue about this topic, I am more than open to an exchange. But remember, I am a busy man (wife, kids, work, school... and now a mild stroke to get over temporarily replacing work), so you must be open to another side of this issue.

Papa Giorgio

PS, totally unrelated. I did an Obama documentary and his church from an old S.H.A.R.P.s perspective.

.

146 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:10:28pm

I appreciate your expression of respect, David, and I want you to know you have mine as well. I do think, though, that a healthy Jewish world has a wide spectrum of Jewishness, and this has been the case from Hellenistic times to our own era. If the intensity of the Middle East conflict could be lowered a few notches for ten years or so another renaissance could happen in the world, I believe. So let me cling to my dream :)

147 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:11:26pm

In my 146 above, I meant to say another renaissance in the JEWISH world.

148 sultan_knish  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:12:40pm

Reform Rabbis are to Judaism what Unitarians are to Christianity.

Considering that a sizable number of Reform Rabbis have polled as not believing in G-d, I'm not sure what an endorsement of evolution from them really counts for.

149 Scion9  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:13:06pm

re: #89 sparrowlake

I don't think teachers on the public dime should be leading religious instruction either. This should also include the subject of Islam as taught in social studies. Currently there is an assumption that Christianity is well known, and not allowed in schools, no one cares about Judaism, and white washed Islamic theology is covered in various social studies and 'exploratory language' courses in middle schools.

The disconnect being that when you study many other cultures in secondary public education you don't study them by their religious identification. You study the Romans, not the Mithrans, etc. 'The Muslims' are treated as an ethnic group, currently.

As far as religion in public schools in general, there should be an ample space and time for children to engage in religious discussion as they might in a debate class or study hall. The Establishment Clause prevents preeminence of any religion but shouldn't be used to exclude religion from public life altogether, and it shouldn't be used to favor a particular secular worldview over religion, which to me seems to be the case.

The current atmosphere in public schools is that children of all faiths cannot wear their beliefs on their sleeves (excluding those religions that require overt articles of faith in day to day dress obviously) and religious children shouldn't be subjected to an environment where they feel they must hide who they are. The high school environment for some kids can be bad enough in that regard due to peer pressure and the cruelty of the young, before you excacerbate it regulations by the authority that should be protecting them as well.

I also think that a lot of the support for ID/Creationism would evaporate among many Christian conservatives if they didn't feel that their religion and culture is being attacked. Just as their are these Pharisee ID proponents and dominionists leading the charge, there are those secularists that want to push their agenda, in the opposite direction of essentially barring religion in public altogether.

ID gains broader support from otherwise rational Christian conservatives who feel battle lines have been drawn. Again, as a relatively young person, I can say that religion is just not part of school life, and I don't mean just in the classroom.

There are technically guidelines to prevent the suppression of free religious expression, but those federal guidelines do not conform to what actually happens in school. Teachers do what they want, and are essentially unaccountable from all that I've experienced.

Just as one example of a federal guideline that doesn't fly in practice...

"Students may express their beliefs about religion in homework, artwork and other written and oral assignments. The work should be judged by ordinary academic standards and against other legitimate pedagogical concerns."

Never in a million years will most teachers that I know now, nor the ones that I had grading my papers give an objective grading of a work that was based on theology or faith, regardless of the course. Mention a 'Western' religious figure in a paper? Fail. Good luck getting a decent grade on a paper that expresses even a secular conservative view. At this point Christian faith might as well be a conservative view in America.

The whole concept of writing your papers and projects in a way that conforms to your teachers political/religious ideology if you want to get good grades is so wrong, yet so prevalent. Teachers are sometimes blatant about it too. I've been told to my face that I was graded poorly because I held the 'wrong views' on a characters motivatios in a novel (despite my views conforming to those of the author).

I've seen the 'write an opinion piece taking one of these stances' as a litmus test in college too. Totally morally bankrupt.

/rant off

150 2senseplain  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:14:43pm

re: #118 ludwigvanquixote

Might need to add that this applies to Reform and Conservative "Rabbis", who also are embarrassingly unfamiliar with the body of Jewish thought, tradition and literature, but are, nevertheless called "Rabbis(and unlike their predesessors at the beginning, who being products of traditional Jewish education and knew better, really may mean well but don't know any better)", despite their lack of qualifacations to the titile, and who are, in their desparate worship of liberal secular humanism, are having all sorts of damaging effects on the group of people known as Reform, Reconstructionist and Conservative Jews, some of whom, having Jewish mothers, are even Jewish. However, they and their followers are really, not a very good source for Jewish thought on any subject.

151 sparrowlake  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:15:07pm

re: #146 Moe Katz

I appreciate your expression of respect, David, and I want you to know you have mine as well. I do think, though, that a healthy Jewish world has a wide spectrum of Jewishness, and this has been the case from Hellenistic times to our own era. If the intensity of the Middle East conflict could be lowered a few notches for ten years or so another renaissance could happen in the world, I believe. So let me cling to my dream :)

Cling!

152 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:15:40pm

re: #148 sultan_knish

Reform Rabbis are to Judaism what Unitarians are to Christianity.

Considering that a sizable number of Reform Rabbis have polled as not believing in G-d, I'm not sure what an endorsement of evolution from them really counts for.

Hell, lots of Christian clergy don't believe in a supernatural G-d either. Catholic priests, Anglican bishops, you name it.

153 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:16:20pm

re: #151 sparrowlake

Thanks for the encouragement!

154 2senseplain  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:19:08pm

re: #126 Moe Katz

Nope. You are right but only because the average life of any non-Torah movement in history has been about 250-300 years before become a practically extinct curiosity(the Karaites, for instance) or not Judiasm(no example because I don't care to step on anybody's spiritual toes).

155 2senseplain  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:22:12pm

re: #134 NY Nana
Why not Nana? They are just as kosher Rabbis as any other Reform, Reconstructionist or Conservative Clergy.

156 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:34:02pm

re: #154 2senseplain

Nope. You are right but only because the average life of any non-Torah movement in history has been about 250-300 years before become a practically extinct curiosity(the Karaites, for instance) or not Judiasm(no example because I don't care to step on anybody's spiritual toes).

The cosmopolitan Jewishness of Hellenistic and Roman Palestine lasted roughly four centuries, ending only with the expulsion in 135 CE. What happened after that isn't so clear, some Jewish communities in Italy may have been equally cosmopolitan.

157 deermusic  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 10:47:08pm

Dr. Gerald Schroeder states that the Torah and the Big Bang are not a dichotomy but rather a duality. His books are extremely interesting and they show how Genesis and the Big Bang are one and the same. He also deals with evolution in a most meaningful way. I recommend his books, his web site, and his YouTube videos.

158 Moe Katz  Sun, Sep 21, 2008 11:07:23pm

re: #142 Lynn B.

Lynn, I'm too tired to reply adequately to the section of your post addressed to me. It seems to me you're reacting a bit defensively with respect to the rightness of Israel's cause, and I can understand that; I probably would too in the same context. But what I'm saying is true and you damn well know it is: Israel gets a lot of bad publicity and many Americans, even those not on the Arab side, just wish a plague on both Israeli and Arab houses. Many Jews are liberal and have liberal Gentile friends, hand out with Gentiles who are critical of Israel, get their news from the MSM, and so on; they see bad images of Israel everywhere and this naturally makes them uncomfortable with their Jewish identity. This is driving young Jews away from the Jewish community. Don't tell me it isn't!

159 yma o hyd  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:57:28am

OK - dead thread and all, but you might find this outstanding essay by Sir Jonathan Sacks, Chief Rabbi, of particular interest:
It was printed in The Times, London ...

160 loveguru  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 3:02:57am

I want to evolve from Monkeys and pigs .... to which politicians should i donate money ? ;)

161 Womball  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 4:42:59am

re: #107 Alouette

If you count all of the Jewish people who ever lived from the giving of the Torah until today, you will find that most Jewish people do accept the divinity of the Torah. The descendants of those who do not, are not going to remain Jews in a generation or two.

I would say this to be true up to about reform Judaism. But wouldn't all jewish people include secular jews as well?

162 Jed  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 4:47:41am
Go on with your bad selves, rabbis.

What does that mean?

163 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 5:45:58am

re: #118 ludwigvanquixote

First off, there are some Orthodox Jews who take a creationist stance. Not all do. Many, many do not.

Just to clarify -- I assume that "creationist" in this context means specifically a form of Young Earth Creationism. That is, some Orthodox Jews, like some fundamentalist Christians, believe that the Earth is somewhat less than 10,000 years old, although the precise age that they calculate for the Earth might differ by a couple of millennia between the Jews and the Christians.

As far as I know (and I could be wrong), "Old Earth Creationism," as a position falling somewhere between YEC and "theistic evolution," is unknown among religious Jews -- either they're YEC or they accept some variant of G_d-guided evolution.

(OEC, by the way, accepts that the Earth is several billion years old, as per geology and astronomy and other scientific disciplines. Along with this, OEC may accept "evolution" in terms of gradual geologic events that raise mountains, carve canyons, and reshape continents over hundreds of millions of years. But OEC completely rejects the biological evolution of species, saying that every species was individually created. And although species can go extinct, they do not change or diverge into separate "daughter" species, not even with divine guidance -- that's what distinguishes OEC from Theistic Evolution.)

164 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 5:52:50am

re: #162 Jed

Go on with your bad selves, rabbis.


What does that mean?

It means that Charles approves of the rabbis -- "bad" here means "awesome and cool."

(Although I thought that the usual expression was "Git down wit' yo' bad self," not "Go on with...")

165 sparrowlake  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 5:59:10am

re: #162 Jed

Go on with your bad selves, rabbis.


What does that mean?

I think it means something like: "You tell'em, Rabbis!"

166 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 6:04:59am

re: #150 2senseplain

Might need to add that this applies to Reform and Conservative "Rabbis", who also are embarrassingly unfamiliar with the body of Jewish thought, tradition and literature, but are, nevertheless called "Rabbis(and unlike their predesessors at the beginning, who being products of traditional Jewish education and knew better, really may mean well but don't know any better)", despite their lack of qualifacations to the titile, and who are, in their desparate worship of liberal secular humanism

Hmm. It's one thing to say that non-Orthodox rabbis are likely to be less thoroughly familiar with Jewish thought, tradition and literature than Orthodox rabbis. But to call them "embarrassingly unfamiliar," and to accuse them of desperately "worshipping" secular humanism, seems to cross a line into, well, fundamentalist stupidity.

(I'm not a Jew at all and don't have a dog in this fight, but I've been around enough fundamentalist "thinkers" in my time to be familiar with their intellectually shoddy, goalpost-moving, no-true-scotsman tactics -- and I suspect that 2senseplain is using exactly those sort of tactics here against the non-Orthodox Jews he/she disagrees with. But I'm happy to be corrected.)

167 roguejew  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 6:35:58am

It should be noted that Rabbi Gary Gerson of the Oak Park Temple B’nai Abraham Zion is a rabbi of a "Reform" congregation. Most cases reform Jews are Liberal Democrats. Reform Judaism affirms "the fundamental principle of Liberalism.

Reform Jews are very much less observant of Religious Law. Many don't keep kosher and do many things that are forbidden on Shabbat. This does not surprise me in the least.

168 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 6:55:04am

re: #167 roguejew

Sparrowlake

The Reform Movement came out with a proclamation that it is their "Halacha" that to be a Jew you don't have to believe in G-d.

They follow liberalism over Judaism everytime they conflict.

I don't need to deal with the whining of people in support of Reformism. Study Reformism before you try to convince me it has anything to do with the teachings of the Torah in actuality.

169 womball  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 7:03:54am

I believe in Hashem, I just have a hard time worshipping him and praying. Most reform Jews do not keep kosher or the Sabbath. They probably haven't heard of the Oral laws as well.

170 Morganfrost  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 7:39:44am

re: #43 Zevy

Actually, I belong to an Orthodox synagogue, Zevy. While the rabbi may not acknowledge evolution, we do have plenty of educated people who recognize the truth.

As for people who deny evolution and insist that the world is less than 6,000 years old, yes, they're entitled to their (idiotic) opinions, but they certainly shouldn't be teaching them in science classes. Even, as far as I'm concerned, in yeshivas.

171 Throbert McGee  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 7:41:30am

re: #142 Lynn B.

It's interesting that of all the forms of religious bigotry, the one that seems the most easily accepted here (by commenters ... this is not directed at Charles) is intra-Jewish hatred.

To comment, again, as a non-Jew: leaving aside the question of whether or not it's "hateful" for an Orthodox Jew to treat Reform, Reconstructionist, and Conversative Jews as inauthentically Jewish, while ignoring the substantial differences among these movements, it is at the very least confusing and misleading to Gentile readers.

And it's no better than when liberal and/or secular Jews conflate Israel's Modern Orthodox, haredim, and hassidim as though THEY were all indistinguishible. Of course, a Reform Jew is perfectly entitled to reject all three theologically (in the same way that an Orthodox Jew can reject both Reformism and Conservatism equally), but he's not entitled to give other people the impression that they're all the same thing.

172 Lynn B.  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 7:47:03am

re: #158 Moe Katz

Lynn, I'm too tired to reply adequately to the section of your post addressed to me. It seems to me you're reacting a bit defensively with respect to the rightness of Israel's cause, and I can understand that; I probably would too in the same context. But what I'm saying is true and you damn well know it is: Israel gets a lot of bad publicity and many Americans, even those not on the Arab side, just wish a plague on both Israeli and Arab houses. Many Jews are liberal and have liberal Gentile friends, hand out with Gentiles who are critical of Israel, get their news from the MSM, and so on; they see bad images of Israel everywhere and this naturally makes them uncomfortable with their Jewish identity. This is driving young Jews away from the Jewish community. Don't tell me it isn't!

No, sorry, I don't damn well know it. I damn well know, to the contrary, that what you're saying is part of the fantasy you say you're clinging to. Well, cling away, but don't expect people who actually understand and have lived the situation you're talking about to buy it.

And please don't try to tell me what I know. You have no idea.

173 Alouette  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 7:49:09am

re: #161 Womball

I would say this to be true up to about reform Judaism. But wouldn't all jewish people include secular jews as well?

Yes it would, but the generational half-life of secular Jews is much shorter than for religious Jews--the secular intermarry and assimilate within 3 or 4 generations.

174 sparrowlake  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 8:08:12am

re: #168 WrathofG-d

Sparrowlake
The Reform Movement came out with a proclamation that it is their "Halacha" that to be a Jew you don't have to believe in G-d.
They follow liberalism over Judaism everytime they conflict.
I don't need to deal with the whining of people in support of Reformism. Study Reformism before you try to convince me it has anything to do with the teachings of the Torah in actuality.

Since the 1930's the Reform movement has evolved to its present position of support of Israel, Zionism and even encouragement of aliyah - and for me that is the bottom line.
Israel needs all the Jews it can get, so supporters of Israel should not argue that Reform Jews are not Jews.
And it is simply outrageous to deny another's Jewishness simply because they are not observant or their brand of politics is misguided or even highly objectionable.

175 womball  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 8:33:45am

re: #174 sparrowlake

Since the 1930's the Reform movement has evolved to its present position of support of Israel, Zionism and even encouragement of aliyah - and for me that is the bottom line.
Israel needs all the Jews it can get, so supporters of Israel should not argue that Reform Jews are not Jews.
And it is simply outrageous to deny another's Jewishness simply because they are not observant or their brand of politics is misguided or even highly objectionable.

What exactly is this Jewishness? A religion or a tribe of people?

Israel isn't essential for Judaism, yet I still support it. Judaism survived for thousands of years in Disapora.

Like Alloutte said, secular Jews will not remain Jews in several generations. As a result of trying to get all of the Jews in Israel, you have anti-semitic Russian secular Jews there.

176 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 9:37:28am

re: #174 sparrowlake

Let me get a couple things straight. My statements are directed at the Reformist movement, not at individual people who consider themselves Reform. Second, this is my personal opinion, which I am more than happy to debate and discuss with anyone on this site, but I don't want them getting their panties in a knot and begin thinking that I am attacking them personally. Nor, will I accept my comments being considered "Intra-Religious-Anti-Judiasm" or whatever it was called above. Don't give me P.C. nonesense about what I am supposed to think about people using my religion to push their social and political agendas, and state I can't believe this way because it might hurt their feelings!

Sparrowlake:

I appreciate your commitment to the present state of Israel, and imagine you are a fine individual. However, support for Israel alone does not alone make you a Jew. If that were true, as you suggest, then every Evangelical Christian, would be a Jew, as would many other people of different faiths, and complete lack of faith, that support Israel. It is not my intention to take away your support of Israel, or your interest in what you consider to be Judaism but instead to state that what you are doing (if you are following the Reformist movement) is NOT Judaism, and if possible, bring you back to the beauty that is ACTUAL Judaism. I am not trying to pick a fight with you, but show you what you have been missing?

Who am I to do this? Someone who has lived it. Someone who was raised Reformist, in a very Pro-Israel Reformist family, who was raised with Reformist values, etc.....but decided to actually look into, deeply, what my family & friends (who actually knew no different) were selling to me as "judaism". What I found was that I was being lied to & there was so much more out there for me. Its as if I had been handed the cover, and index of a book and been sold on the idea that I had the entire novel. If that is what you are happy with....then fine....but don't fool others into thinking that Reformists are actually practicing Judaism (the entire book)

177 ludwigvanquixote  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 10:21:27am

I am desperately saddened by the comments of some of my co-religionists here.

This is a discussion about Evolution vs. Creationism. It is not and should not be a referendum on Reform Jewry.

For those of you who are frum and frothing angrily at your fellow Jews, two words:

sinat chinam.

Three more words:

Loshan Ha Ra

and finally,

It is Elul.

Even though I do not hold the Reform movement as an Halachic authority, the bile shown here by those who claim to be observant is not the Torah way to do business.

178 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 10:27:55am

re: #177 ludwigvanquixote

All great points.

But what bothered me was LGF's use of Reformist "Rabbis" to show that Jewish clergy believe something.

I personally believe that in many ways, the entire concept of Reformism is using H'S's name in vain.

Reformism uses the name of Judaism to push their very anti-Jewish values onto unsuspecting Jews, and non-Jews, to the point that people will live their entire lives thinking they are Jews, and presenting themselves to the world as Jews, but not once doing G-d's true work.

Like those who fought against "Jews" who allowed Hellenist practices into the Holy Temple, I with push back against those who falsely use the name of Judaism to push their own G-dless political values, and disgrace the Jewish people.

179 Moe Katz  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 10:32:22am

re: #172 Lynn B.

No, sorry, I don't damn well know it. I damn well know, to the contrary, that what you're saying is part of the fantasy you say you're clinging to. Well, cling away, but don't expect people who actually understand and have lived the situation you're talking about to buy it.

And please don't try to tell me what I know. You have no idea.

Lynn, you are conflating a basket of apples and oranges here. Whether any sort of peace is possible or not, it remains that many Gentiles in the western world are sick and tired of the conflict and of hearing about it. Many younger Jews don't want to publicly associate themselves with the collective cause of the Jewish people because that is a tainted identity outside of certain circles---irrespective of whether Israel's cause is in fact just or whether the Arabs can in fact be made into partners for peace. This is an objective social fact that is demonstrated by changing attitudes; you may recall a recent poll that showed only about half (?) of younger American Jews consider Israel's survival to be central to them (if anyone has the link please send). Whether Israel is right or wrong, viable or not, identifying strongly and publicly with it is a cross to bear, excuse the expression, for those young Jews who don't cocoon themselves in orthodox communities. I don't see how you can dispute this. I AM telling you I know this to be the case and your denial of it strikes me as ideologically motivated.

180 LudwigVanQuixote  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 11:19:13am

re: #178 WrathofG-d

All great points.

But what bothered me was LGF's use of Reformist "Rabbis" to show that Jewish clergy believe something.

I personally believe that in many ways, the entire concept of Reformism is using H'S's name in vain.

Reformism uses the name of Judaism to push their very anti-Jewish values onto unsuspecting Jews, and non-Jews, to the point that people will live their entire lives thinking they are Jews, and presenting themselves to the world as Jews, but not once doing G-d's true work.

Like those who fought against "Jews" who allowed Hellenist practices into the Holy Temple, I with push back against those who falsely use the name of Judaism to push their own G-dless political values, and disgrace the Jewish people.

I respect your view and more importantly, I share the passion that drives it. PLease take the criticism I am about to give you in the hopefully constructive way it is intended - one observant Jew to another.

We should not try to defend Torah by breaking it's statutes. Hashem made abundantly clear His views on this sort of intra-Jewish bile almost 2000 years ago. We should not be so certain of our own place in heaven as to call an accuser, particularly at this time of year.

I respectfully wish to remind you of several facts.

1. Most Jews from non-Observant upbringings have no idea what the Tradition actually is. I truly believe that if they were exposed to the knowledge of what Jewish Law and Tradition actually is (and is not) that they might embrace their heritage more. One thing in the way of this is that they unfortunately correctly see many observant Jews as angry and intolerant. In the modern world, how else can people of faith be cast?

If you truly wish that the non-observant see what they are missing, giving in to a yetzer ha ra of anger (when they truly have no understanding of what a Torah life is supposed to be) will only cause them to correctly conclude that they have met an example of an unreasonable, arrogant and hypocritical believer. Further, not all who finally get a more complete Jewish education will embrace it. But, if we behave in the way the Torah tells us to, getting them trough the door enough to a point of seeing that even if it is "not for them" that people who do believe are reasonable, compassionate, educated and respectable would be a tremendous step in the right direction.

Commentary like yours defeats this.

2. When you speak as a Jew on a public forum - even one as friendly as this, whether you like it or not, whether it is fair or not, you end up speaking for all Jews. We have enough enemies without soing divisions in our own camp. We have enough problems without giving the false impression that we are backwards and can not obey our own Law.

Commentary like yours defeats this.

3. Whether we agree with the smicha of Reform, Reconstructionist or even Conservative rabbaim or not, they are the leaders of their communities - and in this case, they have taken a scientifically correct stance. They are not to be criticised for saying something proven to be true.

Commentary like yours defeats this.

181 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 11:52:07am

re: #180 LudwigVanQuixote

Everything you say other than what is quoted below I wholeheartedly agree with. My method is very possibly not the appropriate way of going about explaining to these people that they are misguided....but I have moved past frustration with those who will use the name of Judaism to push their own un-Jewish methods and political agendas.

3. Whether we agree with the smicha of Reform, Reconstructionist or even Conservative rabbaim or not, they are the leaders of their communities - and in this case, they have taken a scientifically correct stance. They are not to be criticized for saying something proven to be true.

This is where we part. My frustration here is the use of Reform rabbis to show that Jews support Evolution. Reform "Rabbis" might be the "leaders of their communities" but those communities DO NOT represent the teachings of Judaism. They are shaming the entire name of Judaism. I see reformists in the same vain I see Jews For Jesus. They use the name of Judaism to trick and confuse Jews, and disparage the name of Judaism in general. To me it is as if Jews For Jesus had put out a letter in support of Evolution and LGF posted a thread stating "US Rabbis Back Evolution". (Although in some ways I'd accept J4J over Reformism, as at least J4J has more in common with actual Judaism than Reformism does)

Lastly, I take your statements about the harm I am doing for Religous Judaism to heart. You are 100% correct. I understand that my attitude in many ways harms the larger cause....but I am truly on the fence to if I care. Some people are to be left in the desert.

182 Moe Katz  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 12:12:11pm

re: #181 WrathofG-d

What kind of statement about Torah-centered Judaism are you trying to make by using that nic?

183 Hassan Bin Laiden  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 12:12:44pm

These are Reform "Rabbis" most of whom are agnostic at best. Reform is our Unitarianism, an organized sect of disbelief... a religion that denies the basic tenants of the "parent" religion thereby making it a separate entity entirely. They represent Judaism as much as Jews for Jesus does.

184 ludwigvanquixote  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 12:16:30pm

re: #181 WrathofG-d

Thank you for not taking offense at my words.

You are hitting two points. The small point first is that many in the observant community support the science. I would remind you of the Rambam on Bereshit "what the Torah writes about the account of creation is not all to be taken literally."

I would remind you of the the Rambam that "The word of Hashem can not be false and what is proven to be true can not be false by definition. Thus if what is proven to be true contradicts your understanding of the word of Hashem, then the only thing that can be wrong is your understanding."

I would remind you that Rav Kook and Rav Hirsch were gadolim who supported evolutionary theory.

But that is a small point. A larger point is that if anyone says that 2+2=4 they are telling the truth. It does not matter one jot if you agree with their take on Judaism.

The much more important point is that Reform Jews are hardly atheists. They stem from the same Avraham Avenu we do. They pray to Hashem even if they do not follow all of the statutes. It is unfair, false and way out of line to call them G-dless. Further, it is not for us to say who is a Jew. Hashem already made what the requirements of that are very clear.

185 sparrowlake  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 12:37:02pm

re: #175 womball

What exactly is this Jewishness? A religion or a tribe of people?
Israel isn't essential for Judaism, yet I still support it. Judaism survived for thousands of years in Disapora.
Like Alloutte said, secular Jews will not remain Jews in several generations. As a result of trying to get all of the Jews in Israel, you have anti-semitic Russian secular Jews there.

Here is a rhetorical answer for your rhetorical questions: Jewish is as Jewish does. By virtue of Jewish Law a child of a Jewish mother is automatically a Jew regardless of observance or education, so in that respect it is a tribal religion.
Israel is the historical Jewish homeland and a refuge for the Jewish diaspora if and when needed.
With all due respect to Allouette, she does not know whether the current rates of assimilation will continue in the future or whether they will accelerate, slow down or even reverse. For example, pre-Holocaust secular German Jews were being assimilated at a very high rate, but Hitler put a stop to that.
Regarding the Russian immigrant problem I understand that to be mainly an immigration enforcement issue. In general, secular Jews in Israel form a large plurality or even a majority, depending on whose survey you prefer. But either way, you may want to keep in mind that most of the originators of the Zionist movement and the early chalutzim were for the most part secular Jews who looked forward to escaping the shtetl mentality of Eastern Europe. Which is not to say that observant Jews are not most welcome in Israel, but neither do they have the right to force their religious views on others.

186 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 12:54:50pm

re: #182 Moe Katz

What kind of statement about Torah-centered Judaism are you trying to make by using that nic?

Operation Wrath of G-d was the Israeli mission to avenge the death of the Israeli Olympians murdered at Munich.

You can click my blue name & read up!

187 sparrowlake  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 12:55:44pm

re: #176 WrathofG-d

I appreciate your generous concern for my spiritual well-being, but I feel it may be somewhat misplaced. You see, I am not now and never have been Reform. I am a formerly observant Conservative Jew who is now secular and agnostic to boot. I understand that my former level of observance would likely have made me pretty darn orthodox by some American standards, e.g. shul 5 times/week, laid tefellin, kosher in the house, etc. Which is to say that my resistance to your attacks on Reform Judaism is not motivated by anything more than what I have said - my concern for the State of Israel and my self-identification as a Jew in accordance with my inalienable birthright.

188 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:10:18pm

re: #184 ludwigvanquixote

Of course I wouldn't take offense to your statements or opinions. Even if we disagree, I wouldn't take it personally.

As to whether Evolution is true or not...I haven't opined. My comments above have nothing to do with whether evolution is correct as a theory or if the literal telling of Genesis is.

I hate to have to repeat myself for the 3rd time but: This is about Reformists being used to represent Judaism. Obviously you disagree, but Reformism has very little to do with Judaism. They might think they are Jews (and technically they might be) but they do not practice Judaism.

I call them "G-dless" because it is my understanding that the Reformist Movement officially believes that you don't have to believe in G-d to be Jewish. In fact, when I was young, and having doubts about Judaism, I told my "Rabbi" I didn't believe in G-d, and asked if I was still a Jew. The "rabbi" told me that you don't have to believe in G-d to be a Jew, you only needed to do "tikun olam". So...there you go! You can add to that Reformism teaches that Judaism says that that you don't have to believe the Torah is holy, that we are NOT a "choosen" people, that the 10 Commandments are suggestions, that the mitvot in the Torah (not even from Rabbis but in the Torah itself) are not mandatory, etc., etc., etc. Judaism has more in common with J4J then it does Reformists. I would rather they be non-practicing Orthodox than Reformists.

This is about Reformists being used to represent Judaism, not evolution itself.

189 Moe Katz  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:11:12pm

re: #186 WrathofG-d

Okay.

190 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:13:29pm

re: #187 sparrowlake

Well then I guess it comes down to what or Who you think protects Israel.

191 Moe Katz  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:14:53pm

Magical thinking. Masada complex.

192 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:15:29pm

re: #191 Moe Katz

Was that directed towards me? If so, could you explain please.

193 Moe Katz  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:19:59pm

You sound like you are counting on divine intervention.

194 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:21:23pm

re: #193 Moe Katz

Of course I am. Find me a Israeli military victory that didn't have a bit of miracle in it.

When the Torah says that you will return to Israel at around this time, then the Jewish people return to Israel around that time, and when it states that x & Y will happen, then X & Y happen....you're darn right I BELIEVE!

195 Moe Katz  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:24:47pm

re: #194 WrathofG-d

Of course I am. Find me a Israeli military victory that didn't have a bit of miracle in it.

When the Torah says that you will return to Israel at around this time, then the Jewish people return to Israel around that time, and when it states that x & Y will happen, then X & Y happen....you're darn right I BELIEVE!

We got conquered quite a few times too.

196 Moe Katz  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:25:35pm

Sounds to me like Kosher Cool-Aid.

197 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:30:16pm

re: #195 Moe Katz

re: #196 Moe Katz

We got conquered for good reason. Mostly infighting, and assimilation/lack of Faith.

As for "kosher Cool-Aid", it sounds as if you haven't done much actual Torah study. I used to think the same thing (was a devout secular-Jew, Zionist) then I began actually studying deeply the "tradition" I proclaimed to be a part of...and realized what I had been missing.

198 Moe Katz  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:33:31pm

So it was the fault of the other Jews for not following Bar Kochba?

199 ludwigvanquixote  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:33:48pm

re: #188 WrathofG-d


Not to make too fine of an halachic point, but as far as the strictest halacha is concerned, you do not have to believe in Hashem to be Jewish either. If your mother was a Jew, you are a Jew. Period. That is the law.

Now I fully agree that someone who does ont believe in Hashem does not get to raise his or her voice in the name of Judaism, but and this is a big but, Hashem Himself, if you believe the Law has already poskined on this issue.

200 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:37:46pm

re: #199 ludwigvanquixote

You are splitting hairs. We both know that that was not what my "rabbi" was saying, and I am not very sure that the Rabbis got that Halacha correct.

I direct you to the 1st positive mitvot, and the 1st commandment.

201 WrathofG-d  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 1:39:12pm

re: #198 Moe Katz

That is one particular instance & I do not claim to know exactly why G-d punished us in that instance. To know exactly why things are done is to believe I can completely understand the Why of G-d, that I am not wise enough to do. That being said however, I am sure that H'S's has His way.

202 sparrowlake  Mon, Sep 22, 2008 2:45:24pm

re: #190 WrathofG-d

Well then I guess it comes down to what or Who you think protects Israel.

I don't know if there is a God, but I do know that many Reform Jews help to protect Israel.

203 ebed_melech  Tue, Sep 23, 2008 6:55:50am

Joining forces with 'Naturalists' is the age old temptation to which Solomon yielded of idolising Nature's intrinsic force and creativity.

Evolution, uniformitarianism and atheism are woven from the same cloth - and paradoxically one of which the woop and warf are often highly anti-empirical.

Had the Rabbis given credence to the ruling cosmological paradigm before Hubble they would have been in the doubly embarrassing position of denying Torah and having to make a sharp u turn a little later - thankfully they were then wiser.
Hairpin bend ahead!

204 ebed_melech  Tue, Sep 23, 2008 6:59:08am

re: #184 ludwigvanquixote

Of course Ludwig, Rambam was a classic syncretist (with Aristotle), isn't that why the ultra-Orthodox have him banned?

205 Basho  Tue, Sep 23, 2008 10:19:05am

Here's what the nutroots at Hot Air are saying:

Saenger and Darwin were both racists. Don’t mess with the liberals high priests of godlessness…and profit-making.
(Imagine the trees saved if you removed evolution crud from textbooks?)

saved on September 23, 2008

Wonder how many people decided to stop calling themselves conservative after that. Then they wonder why Democrats are gaining ground.

206 Olaf the Humble  Tue, Sep 23, 2008 12:10:57pm

Uh oh....
Sorry to burst your bubble but...it turns out that the real "inventor" of the theory of evolution is Chuck darwins Grandpa...Erasmus Darwin.

According to the Freemasons own website, Erasmus was a top freemason.

Not only that but he was a member of the Bavarian illuminati.

Just like Chuck Darwin's main promoters...Thomas Huxley, and later, the founders of the Nat'l Geographic society and the Smithsonian institute.


Tells me it's a coincidence that the Nat'l Geographic society has controlled almost all archaeolgical digs until the last few years, and that the HUNDREDS of newspaper articles from the 1800's in which people reported finding evidence that disproves "Billions of years" after they sent it to the smithsonian it "mysteriously disappeared"!


The truth is: if you believe in evolution you have been duped!

207 justadot  Tue, Sep 23, 2008 12:48:37pm

re: #206 Olaf the Humble

Please leave that garbage over at PrisonPlanet. It doesn't belong here.

208 Basho  Tue, Sep 23, 2008 4:35:17pm

re: #206 Olaf the Humble

The truth is: if you believe in evolution you have been duped!

LMAO! Lack self-awareness much?


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