I agree with Ayatollah Ghilmeini.

buying opportunity

So much for a deal. Breitbart is reporting things have gone fuzzy.

Urgent efforts to lash together a $700 billion rescue plan for the national economy broke apart Thursday night, hours after key lawmakers had declared they had reached a deal.

Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson and Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke sped to Capitol Hill to try to revive or rework the proposal that the administration says must be quickly approved by Congress to stave off economic disaster.

Congressional leaders were to meet with the economic chiefs into the night.

Washington Mutual shareholder were just wiped out a little while ago.

Hail Mary pass and no Doug Flutie in sight.....I'm not liking this one bit.

I would like to see Sarbanes/Oxley repealed as part of this bail out.

AG sold me with this:

This mistake needs some fixing but let's get past pointing fingers- we were all both participants and beneficiaries of the old system, Republicans and Democrats mismanaged it but right now, not letting US liquidity evaporate, is less expensive than a fifteen year depression with 30% unemployment for a decade, starvation and social disorder.

I have to agree- in the short term, this is expensive and hurts. But in the long term, I'd rather pay now than pay later, longer and harder.

Don't worry Comrades, loyal party officials are conducting state business as we speak.....there is nothing to worry about.

Go about your business!

We had the same hysteria over Bear Stearns. We were supposed to float hundreds of super-squajillions or else locusts would eat our faces while zombies made love to our wives and poodles.

We bailed them out and, ooh lookie here, we still had this crisis.

I know I've posted this on other blogs, but Mike Pence is right:- "pay now or you'll regret it" is used-car-sales talk. No offence meant to lizards who sell used cars honestly.

re: #7 Sharmuta

I have to agree- in the short term, this is expensive and hurts. But in the long term, I'd rather pay now than pay later, longer and harder.

Just so.

Always such fun to see the government jump in to fix a problem that the government itself created.

*spit*

re: #2 spidly

buying opportunity

can you lend me some cash?

or maybe I can ask for a million dollars, that's petty cash in the scheme of things.

To whom it may concern:
With the hundreds of billions you're about to hand out, whose gonna notice a mere $million.
Yours truly,
So?

The Dems and the media have been working on this for 8 years.It can't be stopped!

In any event, I'm cautious about the idea of the bailout, what it means, and whether it is warranted. Alarm bells go off when I hear about the government buying up all these assets, as though they've done wonders with what they've been entrusted with to this point (how's that Amtrak business doing for example).

Still, the choice may be badly run business or no business at all because the markets are literally stuck. And that means that while a bailout may be a bad option, it's still the best of all bad options.

Big Lizards is still covering the story and I appreciate his take on things. There are some seriously troubling aspects to the bailout, and I can only hope that the Administration sorts things out - or that McCain and the adults step in and demand that minimal action is taken - enough to get through this, but not so much that the government has its hands in literally everything.

re: #7 Sharmuta

I think CNBC's Jim Kramer quasi-predicted this in Aug 2007, although even he didn't think things would get this dire.

There is too much of a rush to get this approved and most Americans have no clue what the problem is! The Dems have already approved the current version by an overwhelming majority. Alarm bells should be going off everywhere just for that reason alone.

We don't even have a proper explanation of the situation yet, Senators with average or below average intelligence seem to have a grip on it.

This is bullshit of the highest degree and if we put our signatures on this beast before we fully understand it then we may be sowing the seeds of our future prosperity.

re: #10 Oingo Boingo

Did you serve in the 11th ACR?

It didnt take long for the scumbag democrats to find a scapegoat. Barney Frank says a deal was "imminent" until McCain showed up and "scuttled" the talks. Frank is one of the major reasons this has happened by blocking reforms

OT (well, probably not, in all likelihood)

And , funny thing...

"A founding member of the campaign of Democratic presidential nominee Sen. Barack Obama of Illinois met in New York City Wednesday night with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad."
--Snip--
Update: Jodie Evans issued the following statement tonight on her meeting with Ahmadinejad.

“It’s rare for a head of state to take time during an official U.N. visit to meet with the peace community, especially in a situation where the host government —represented by the Bush administration — is so hostile,” said Jodie Evans, co-founder of CODEPINK. “The fact that the meeting took place and was so positive is, in itself, a major step forward.”
--Snip--

Found at Melanie Morgan, via Reihl World View

This is despicable.
-Taq

I'd sure like to see what the dems are trying to load into this thing. Already Harry Reid is trying to slip in a ban on shale oil explorations, and the good Lord only knows what that porker Barney Frank has dreamed up.

I just don't know who to believe on this anymore. The Administration and fed want to practically socialize the banks, The dems want to do that plus bail out everyone in the country who has bad debts and open the candy store for their buddies Their surrogates are all on TV spouting the latest fax blast from Obama central that it was wrong for McCain to interject himself into the mix.
The real wild card seems to be that all of the above parties thought they could steam-roll the repubs in the house to go along with the dire threats of doom etc, but they aren't buying. I know that the calls against the plan are running 3 to 1 against too.

This has become a mess stacked on top of a pile of donkey doo.

re: #6 Dasher

I would like to see Sarbanes/Oxley repealed as part of this bail out.

QFTMFT!

re: #11 Captain Midnight

Always such fun to see the government jump in to fix a problem that the government itself created.

*spit*

EXACTLY!

re: #18 buzzsawmonkey

I'm not sure that you mean "prosperity" in that last line.

it was meant to be interpreted as either minus/plus. It seems like a dice roll.

re: #15 Fenway_Nation

I think CNBC's Jim Kramer quasi-predicted this in Aug 2007, although even he didn't think things would get this dire.

I'm obviously not a finance wiz, but what AG said made sense to me.

It would really be nice if the media would actually trace back and finger the culprits responsible for this. There'd be a whole lot of Democrats being frogmarched.

/wishful thinking

re: #9 Zimriel

My poodle died in 1978. I suppose in a way, that makes her a fair cop for the zombies....

I don't like the stampede aspect of this. Usually it is the hallmark of a con.

re: #7 Sharmuta

AG sold me with this:

I have to agree- in the short term, this is expensive and hurts. But in the long term, I'd rather pay now than pay later, longer and harder.

What guarantee do we have that we won't also pay later?

This has been festering for years and they wanted to knock out a socialist solution in three hours. Socialism never works. The only people who aren't going to feel a thing are the multi-millionaire congress people that got us into this mess. The rest of us small potatoes are going to feel it for a long time.

Supposedly, That large piece of garbage Harry Reid blew a gasket when conservatives at the President's meeting today brought up a counterproposal.

Typical.

From K-Lo at the NRO Corner (h/t, "UncleKrusty" commenting at Ace), Cantor, Hensarling, and Ryan are working on a bill which will provide oversight of the issue WITHOUT all the frakkin' PORK which is making the likes of Michelle Malkin so angry.

ABC News: Deal May Be Dead: Democrats Blaming McCain
Thursday, September 25, 2008 Jake Tapper, Charles Herman and Z. Byron Wolf

After days of intense bipartisan negotiations and meetings today at the White House, the deal to bail out staggered investment banks may be dying amid partisan finger-pointing. Republicans blame Democrats. Democrats blame Republicans, and a key Democrat even pointed a finger at Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain. House Financial Services Chairman Barney Frank, D-Mass., told Democratic colleagues that McCain's sudden heightened involvement in the negotiations has destroyed chance of an agreement, sources told ABC's George Stephanopoulos. Frank compared McCain's involvement to "Richard Nixon blowing up the Vietnam peace talks in 1968."

re: #20 Taqiyyotomist

If the economic situation is as bad as everyone's saying, Obama's actually happy since this will overshadow any news of that.

re: #21 Intrepid

I'd sure like to see what the dems are trying to load into this thing. Already Harry Reid is trying to slip in a ban on shale oil explorations, and the good Lord only knows what that porker Barney Frank has dreamed up.

That's really shitty. This should just be about the financial crisis and leave the other politics out of this. That really pisses me off!

Where's 3 Wood? Where's Rawmuse? Where's Kilgore Trout?

C'mon folks, pipe in here!

re: #30 ciaospirit

There's more of us than there are of them.

Re: my #20
So much more in the link. OMG.

Deal May Be Dead: Democrats Blaming McCain

Sources tell ABC News' George Stephanopoulos that Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson fears the deal is falling apart.

As Democrats met in the White House's Roosevelt Room after the meeting with Bush, Paulson told them, "Please don't blow this up," according to sources.

Sources say Frank was livid, saying, "Don't say that to us after all we've been through!"

House Speaker Rep. Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., reportedly said, "We're not the ones trying to blow this up. It's the House Republicans."

And Obama rides the blame McCain/Republican meme to victory on the back of economic disaster. Hope you don't need to borrow money or a job.

/get in cash and be prepared to sell short if you want to make any money

Doesn't matter whether they're right about the seriousness of the crisis or not (I don't think they are); you must still not make the situation worse by enacting a law that ties us irrevocably (don't kid yourselves now about the consequences of this thing) to socialism.

Anyone remember the USSR?

If McCain scuttled this deal he has the support of the vast majority of the American people who are tired of being ripped off by a bunch of big city thieves!

can anyone say HERBERT HOOVER

I was wondering if someone could help me out here...

I've been following foreign policy and the threat of Islamic Nazi terror ever since 9/11...

But I know almost nothing about Economics. I still have my job, I'm still making decent money (not as good as a I used to, but decent) and there's a panic, but I'm not sure what about.

Could someone explain it to me in layman's English?

Also, the difference between Obama and McCain in it as well.

NO BAIL OUT! Let the free markets be free. The American taxpayer should not have to foot the bill to bail out Fannie/Freddie/AIG

Another day in politics....or History unfolding?

Power to the Correct People!
(They don't endanger the economy.)

People have this illusion that throwing money at a problem is a cure. Jerry Lewis has been running his telethon longer than I care to remember. No breakthroughs. March of Dimes, same shit. Throwing money into a factory that produces shit will just get you more of the same.

re: #42 yochanan

can anyone say HERBERT HOOVER

Wasn't he on TV with FDR?

re: #33 LC Hoghead

Didn't Barney Frank give one of his boyfriends a cushy job at Fannie Mae?

Congratulations peasants! Your retirement accounts supported industries that intentionally outsourced themselves, even into oblivion. Now you'll pay dearly for buying the outsourcers a brand new house each. Galt's Gulch just got built, and it was built on your dime. Be proud!

Dow futures down 130

Clinton's experiment in social engineering just received an F. So why on Earth would we bail it out? OK, foreign investors might pull there money out. I say let them. Open up the oil shale and in ten years we can be exporting oil!

re: #32 Zimriel

From K-Lo at the NRO Corner (h/t, "UncleKrusty" commenting at Ace), Cantor, Hensarling, and Ryan are working on a bill which will provide oversight of the issue WITHOUT all the frakkin' PORK which is making the likes of Michelle Malkin so angry.

Are they talking about Paul Ryan (R-Wisconsin0?

He is my congressman and is a financial conservative extraordinairre. He is a good good man and whatever he says, I would believe it.

re: #48 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Wasn't he on TV with FDR?

New commentary or was it a comedy team? Let's see what the TV Guide from then has to say.

re: #46 Egfrow

People have this illusion that throwing money at a problem is a cure. Jerry Lewis has been running his telethon longer than I care to remember. No breakthroughs. March of Dimes, same shit. Throwing money into a factory that produces shit will just get you more of the same.

Actually, March of Dimes did lead pretty directly to cure for polio. Thing is, it was a private undertaking. Money - resources, anyway - have to be employed to solve problems. It's who is doing it that counts. Too much waste and corruption in public spending programs.

re: #2 spidly

buying opportunity

I wouldn't be buying anything now, except as a situational day trade.

/looks like the knife now has a few thousand more Dow points to fall

McCain is signing on to a different deal... no details yet...

re: #34 Fenway_Nation

If there were nothing but "Alfred, the biggest Rhode Island Red in southern New Hampshire, has died today: he was 6 1/2." THAT news would somehow "overshadow" this news of sedition, treason, etc. Alfred would be the most famous f**kin chicken on the TV news, ever.

Here is today's Mark Levin show archive. He talks more on the bailout issue very deeply. He also takes down O'Reilly a few notches.

I'mmmmmm meeeeelllltttttttiiiiinnnggggg- IIIIIIIII'mmmmmmmm mmmmmeeeeeelllltttttiiinnnggggg Curse you and your little dog too!

re: #49 Fenway_Nation

Didn't Barney Frank give one of his boyfriends a cushy job at Fannie Mae?

Barney Frank's boyfriend was Fannie Exec

re: #60 Egfrow

Heard that- Mark was great as usual!

Some hail mary's work out.

re: #30 ciaospirit

What guarantee do we have that we won't also pay later?

This has been festering for years and they wanted to knock out a socialist solution in three hours. Socialism never works. The only people who aren't going to feel a thing are the multi-millionaire congress people that got us into this mess. The rest of us small potatoes are going to feel it for a long time.

I don't know. I'm not an expert on this, obviously. But I do know that passing up on dealing with one's finances in the present usually causes it to hurt more when you eventually deal with it later. For example- if McCain had gotten his way in 2005, maybe we wouldn't be dealing with this now. So not dealing with it then has caused more pain later.

re: #36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Killgore's on vacation.

re: #52 buzzsawmonkey

The March of Dimes started as a charity to fight polio. It was successful. Once successful, it changed its mission rather than go out of business.

Right, March of Dimes was a bad choice of an analogy. The the overall point I was making seems to apply here. Throwing our money into the fire and see if it works is their solution.

re: #49 Fenway_Nation

Yup fwanks lover was an exec VP

As Democrats met in the White House's Roosevelt Room after the meeting with Bush, Paulson told them, "Please don't blow this up," according to sources.

Sources say Frank was livid, saying, "Don't say that to us after all we've been through!"

Of course....it's all about them.

Poor dears.

Ok my prediction (hope, dream) John McCain comes out smokin:

"I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE"

/my best Peter Finch

THE PROBLEM IS IF THIS ISN'T FIXED CREDIT WILL DRY UP FOR ALL SORTS OF PEOPLE, WE WILL HAVE A DEPRESSION AND NOT A RECESSION. working out the details is a different thing.

re: #51 opinionated

Dow futures down 130

That's predictable.

/if this deal doesn't get done, in a form that's not totally useless, expect tomorrow to end up much worse

Some congressional Republicans are to blame for intransigence on this bailout, at least as much as some Democrats. Normally I agree with limited government oversight and reducing taxes (and this is a big tax), but we are facing a highly possible economic death-spiral, which will lead to a severe recession or even a depression. I don't think this is an exaggeration. This serious a crisis requires severe action--and not populist political shenanigans.

re: #66 Sharmuta

True, but his way of dealing with it in 2005 was to cut government involvement. We still need to do something - true - but his approach then is still the correct one. Yes, it will cost us more now, but it may save us. A bail out will likely destroy us.

National health care anyone?

re: #71 obageegee

Ok my prediction (hope, dream) John McCain comes out smokin:

"I'M MAD AS HELL AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE"

/my best Peter Finch

Hey Buzz, Just because you paid too much for gas in Fargo doesn't mean you have to throw $700,000,000,000.00 off the "Empire" State Building.If you do I want to be there; better than than Time Square on New Years Eve!

I am reaching out to lizard financial gurus and revealing my financial ignorance for all to see:

I understand we need to do something - its about banks being able to loan again via freeing up cash (right?), why wouldn't it make sense to go ahead and buy the mortgages from the banks with the intent to attract investors to recoup the initial outlay? They could be sold in the form of bonds after shoring up the risk a bit?

To stabilize the loans, what about looking at the mortgages and doing a refi for those who can show the ability to pay fair market value at a fixed rate, a modified short sell if you will? Foreclose on those that can't afford the house they are in come hell or high water, and then resell those? I understand this means people who made very poor financial moves get "bailed" while others who live in their means don't and its not "fair", but neither is crashing the economy. It also means you do have to be able to pay with actual proof - I am sure too simplistic, but at least it doesn't feel like something for nothing. Then financial reform can be worked though in a non-rushed way -

Frank Raines should go straight to jail.

"We think this insurance model works... This is an alternative," Wisconsin Republican Rep. Paul Ryan said at a press briefing where he distributed a one-page proposal.

He said dozens of House Republicans are involved in the group developing the alternative insurance approach.

Texas Republican Rep. Jeb Hensarling, chairman of the study committee, said its more than 100 members "remain skeptical, fearful and unconvinced" about the administration's plan.

"The insurance model is one that appeals to us," he said.

The conservative group called for the U.S. government to offer insurance coverage for the roughly half of all mortgage-backed securities that it does not already insure.

The Treasury Department, they said, should charge premiums to holders of those securities to finance the insurance.

They also called for temporary tax cuts and regulatory relief for businesses. In addition, they said, financial institutions participating in their proposed program would have to disclose more about their mortgage asset holdings.

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Boy, if Obama wins, and sets up labor camps for all the debtors, are the Unions gonna stand for that? I mean, thats a lot of lost labor!
///

FWIW I posted this on the crisis thread yesterday after it went dead.

It is Fjordmanesque in length but I tried to stick to a relevant narrative. Some found it useful.

-----------------

A) This isn't a bailout. It is actually a buying opportunity. Thing is that there is only one entity on the planet that can pull the trigger on the buying.

B) Those saying that the market should do its work don't understand markets. Markets are very efficient and rational in the long run. In the short run, however, they are quite often extremely irrational. Day traders and hedge funds make all sorts of money exploiting the time and space between short run irrational and long run rational. Herds are stupid, but reward and pain will work together to point them in the right direction. The market provides reward and pain. Problem is, this round of pain we are facing has the potential to kill the herd.

People here would join me in condemning the freaky ecowhackos who tell us that a pandemic that kills of half of humanity would be a good thing. We know those people exist and we know they are morons. I am asking you to get in touch with your inner moron if you think we should let the market collapse and see what happens. We live in a highly industrialized society where our population is simply not equipped to go back to foraging for food while we wait out the half century for our highly stratified economy to reassemble itself after credit is eliminated from our economy for a few years and hyper inflation sets in.

C) Lending money is an act of trust. Ever loan money to a friend or family member? What did you do after they were slow to pay it back? Or not pay at all? Oh -- you stopped lending.

Our entire industrialized society depends on lending. We have built efficiencies into our economy that assume the continued existence of lending. Been to WalMart? There is not a single product on a WalMart shelf that WalMart has paid for. Not one. At any WalMart anywhere. The vendor gets paid well after you pay WalMart. WalMart operates at very low margins and makes much of its money as a bank of sorts - they put money to work for a while before paying the vendors. If lending seizes WalMart goes away. Gone. No jobs. No cheap goods. And because WalMart's efficiencies wiped out other retailers a long time ago, there is no alternative supply channel to many towns that can scale if it goes away.

Imagine a slow motion collapse of all sorts of businesses and services around you - what do you start doing? That's right - you start hoarding what you can for your family.

The point is that the "trust" underlying lending in our economy is going away as the financiers try to hoard cash in an effort to survive.

It is highly irrational. But it is a herd with momentum. It will corrrect if you provide it the pain of collapse, but the collapse will cause you pain for decades.

... continues ...

A) This isn't a bailout. It is actually a buying opportunity. Thing is that there is only one entity on the planet that can pull the trigger on the buying.

B) Those saying that the market should do its work don't understand markets. Markets are very efficient and rational in the long run. In the short run, however, they are quite often extremely irrational. Day traders and hedge funds make all sorts of money exploiting the time and space between short run irrational and long run rational. Herds are stupid, but reward and pain will work together to point them in the right direction. The market provides reward and pain. Problem is, this round of pain we are facing has the potential to kill the herd.

People here would join me in condemning the freaky ecowhackos who tell us that a pandemic that kills of half of humanity would be a good thing. We know those people exist and we know they are morons. I am asking you to get in touch with your inner moron if you think we should let the market collapse and see what happens. We live in a highly industrialized society where our population is simply not equipped to go back to foraging for food while we wait out the half century for our highly stratified economy to reassemble itself after credit is eliminated from our economy for a few years and hyper inflation sets in.

C) Lending money is an act of trust. Ever loan money to a friend or family member? What did you do after they were slow to pay it back? Or not pay at all? Oh -- you stopped lending.

Our entire industrialized society depends on lending. We have built efficiencies into our economy that assume the continued existence of lending. Been to WalMart? There is not a single product on a WalMart shelf that WalMart has paid for. Not one. At any WalMart anywhere. The vendor gets paid well after you pay WalMart. WalMart operates at very low margins and makes much of its money as a bank of sorts - they put money to work for a while before paying the vendors. If lending seizes WalMart goes away. Gone. No jobs. No cheap goods. And because WalMart's efficiencies wiped out other retailers a long time ago, there is no alternative supply channel to many towns that can scale if it goes away.

Imagine a slow motion collapse of all sorts of businesses and services around you - what do you start doing? That's right - you start hoarding what you can for your family.

The point is that the "trust" underlying lending in our economy is going away as the financiers try to hoard cash in an effort to survive.

It is highly irrational. But it is a herd with momentum. It will corrrect if you provide it the pain of collapse, but the collapse will cause you pain for decades.

... continues ...

re: #11 Captain Midnight

Always such fun to see the government jump in to fix a problem that the government itself created.

*spit*

Bravo! Best summary of the whole freakin' mess I've seen to date.

I am telling you.

People have been asking: Who can I trust on this? Who in Washington can I trust?

I trust Paul Ryan. Listen to him. If he is heading this alternative, I would consider it very very seriously.

re: #43 Dayenu

Me too.

Here's the way that I see it.

Politicians (read Democrats) have been screaming for years that poor folks (read minorities) have been discriminated against for years. Forced banks to loan money to folks who couldn't pay.

Banks found they were able to "package" these loans and "sell" their interest in the loans to the new suckers.

Banks got greedy and began making bets that property values were going to increase anyway, and ramped up their bad lending and packaging practices. The new suckers bought those too.

House values dropped. Loans came due. Houses (worth 1/2 of their mortgage value) were foreclosed upon.

Nobody's getting their money.

Gubment gonna go ahead and buy all the bad paper and try to sell the houses represented on the bad paper.

That's the way I see it. Simplicity from a simpleton. But, I tried.

F) Bush also didn't mention the big hill that we have to climb down the road - entitlements.

So let's say we decide to let the market just do its thing and the herd runs off the cliff taking your investments and savings with it, and in return you get a less efficient economy where hoarding and hyper inflation dictate your discrete economic decision making.

Let's say we go that route because anything else would be socialism.

Well get ready to see a whole new class of homeless people wandering in packs trying to exact what they fell entitled to. Because we go down that road, we get to deal with the demographic reality that only a little over 50% of our adult population actually works and that it is aging. The tax base won't exist in a depression to maintain the current entitlements burden, nor will it take on the new baby boomers along with any and all special needs individuals that are born/welcomed into this country every day. We are a compassionate society with an extensive social and public health infrastructure because we can afford it. We won't after a collapse. Not without adopting a planned economy and all of the inefficiencies and poverty producing mechanisms that entails. We can all be poor together.

G) Back to the "plan"

The plan is this - the US Government becomes a stock brokerage and hands its one and only customer (Paulson) a 700 Billion line of credit.

In broad strokes (he admits to not knowing the details yet) is to buy the stuff that the herd is dumping for less than it is worth.

That is right : the herd is begging to sell assets for less than they are worth. Why? Fundamentally, they are panicked and need cash because everyone they do business with is also panicked. Cash is king.

Turns out that the US Government is in the cash business.

So Paulson goes and buys "toxic" mortgages (which are bundled in with perfectly good mortgages) at 65 cents for every dollar. Paulson knows a couple of things. 1) that these mortgages are backed up by hard assets called real estate. 2) that while real estate prices are down right now, it is the panicked herd that has caused the prices to fall. If he buys the mortgages from the herd 3 (not 2) things happen: 1) the prices stabilize as Paulson simply holds the properties that got handed in on the bad mortgages, 2) the herd gets cash and puts it to work investing/lending in other ventures (they won't play at the real estate table for a while - pain creates memories) and 3) the foreign money starts buying some real estate, helping the demand side and restoring the equilibrium.

In many markets house prices have fallen to less that the cost of building the replacement on similar land. Paulson has a sure thing. He sits on his mortgages, gets paid on 95% of them (because the collapse has been avoided) and holds the other 5% and withholds them from the market. Prices stabilize and then rise. He then starts selling some of his houses.

But even if he DESTROYED those 5% of the houses, he still makes a 30% margin on the good ones (he bought them at 65%). Even if it costs him 10% to run the program, he clears 20%. About 150 Billion dollars.

BUT THIS ISN'T CAPITALISM!

Nor is you home mortgage interest deduction on your taxes, but I don't hear you complaining.

And if we were smart and confident Americans (which I know we all are) we would give Paulson everything he is asking for and add one thing to it - he can keep 5% of the profit for himself and any other treasury employees he choses to share it with.

Then we'd be sure to come out of this better than before.

well NOR LUAP has said do nothing

So, isn't it interesting that the WH had this meeting this afternoon, with all the principals from both parties, including McCain and Obama, and guess whose name doesn't come up as floating any ideas or participating beyond merely being present.

That's right boys and girls. Sen. Obama. Just present. No actual ideas to help solve this mess.

While the Democrats are trying to blame and spin the deal failure on McCain and the House GOP, there's no actual evidence that McCain did anything other than float a few ideas that would placate the House GOP - instead of a bailout provide insurance and cap gains cuts.

We've got ourselves a mess, and the markets are not going to like this one bit.

I blame HGTV, Lowes and Home Depot. oh and Frank Raines

re: #69 LC Hoghead

He now works at a Pottery Barn or some such fruity liberal socialist marxist endeavor.

Why do I have this niggling little doubt about my elected representatives coming to rescue my job, my savings, my family's future? There must be something wrong with me. After all, I look about the Washington political scene and I see so many good, honest, patriotic statesmen.

Maybe I'm just an insecure kind of guy.

re: #80 ciaospirit

Frank Raines should go straight to jail.

I agree.

This whole mess basically boils down to greed and lust for power disguised as altruism (Fannie & Freddie) exacerbated by Democrat intractability and just good ol' fashioned gross negligence and incompetence.

Pollster says election could end in landslide

The presidential election might be a tight race now, but one of the country’s top pollsters thinks the race will end in an electoral landslide.

John Zogby, president of Zogby International, told a group of businesspeople today that it’s up to Democratic Sen. Barack Obama to convince voters to go with him. If he’s not successful, the country will likely vote for “a comfortable old shoe”, that being Republican Sen. John McCain.

Despite the books Obama has written, Americans are still asking, “Who are you, where are you from?,” Zogby said.

re: #9 Zimriel

Well said! I second his statement.

re: #44 obageegee

NO BAIL OUT! Let the free markets be free. The American taxpayer should not have to foot the bill to bail out Fannie/Freddie/AIG

Free? The markets are seizing up and grinding to a halt before our eyes. That would be the $13 trillion U.S. economy.

/doing nothing meaningful and letting this run it's course is going to make $700 billion look like a huge bargain

I find people willingness to compare a lack of available credit as a asset of growth. People who don't know what to do with it in the first place is just wasted. We have shifted out philosophy of creating viable assets, cash reserves, and cash investments to just extending promises of future value as an asset. When we were on the Gold Standard everyone knew what a dollar was worth and what it compared to. Now, our dollar is backed against wishes and international trade deficits. During he depression real assets were lost in value and gold plummeted, we knew it was real. Know it's a loss of money that's not there but may be there in the future that we are basing this crisis on. Credit and the promise of return. Never addressing the issues to whom and for what?

Milton Friedman believed the Great Depression was avoidable. His argument was that the Federal Reserve was created to be a lender of last resort, but that it refused to loan money to banks in their time of need. This resulted in bank runs as people reasonably tried to avoid losing everything as banks collapsed.

Today, we are facing a similar situation. Banks and investment firms refusing to lend to one another due to fear of default is effectively the same as depositors withdrawing their money, but on a higher level. The financial companies get a bad rap, but in reality they are the brains of the entire economic system. They allocate money efficiently, invest in new business, and generally make the whole world more prosperous and comfortable. If they significantly slow or stop their operations, the effects will spread out like shock waves.

Ben Bernanke, a longtime supporter of Friedman's views, is doing what he can to restore confidence in the markets. Henry Paulson is there with him, and has also vocalized that only some investment firms should be allowed to fail completely, depending on the likely outcome of their failure. This helps prevent the idea of moral hazard. Moral hazard, in the form of government guarantees of Freddie and Fannie's bad mortgage purchases, is what caused this problem.

To bail out these banks is not to accept communism. It is not to reject capitalism. It is to accept our system of modified capitalism and government-issued currency. It is to accept that our government can influence the markets in beneficial ways. You won't get a stronger free market advocate than Milton Friedman, and he would definitely believe this was the right thing to do. Warren Buffet, Alan Greenspan, Barack Obama, John McCain, The Economist -- all agree that we have an opportunity to avoid unbeforeseen disaster by restoring confidence to the credit markets. Only the true idealists, such as Ron Paul, Bob Barr, Ralph Nader, and others generally paranoid about government oppose it.

Furthermore, these funds would be like an investment. The US's 80% stake of AIG will certainly give good returns down the line, as AIG is ultimately a stable company that was sold at a firesale price due to temporary liquidity problems. When the housing market stabilizes -- projected by Greenspan to likely occur in early 2009 -- a chain reaction of events will go off that will restore the economy. The goal is to bring us from here to there, and avert catastrophe.

Don't know how the first part repeated out of my paste buffer, but it did. Here is the middle part ...

------------------------

D) In a normally functioning market, the factors I cite in B and C work together to create a dynamic equilibrium that is reflected in interest rates. Money is available to lend based on a lot of factors, but the herd will thin when the cost of borrowing goes up, and the herd will fatten when the cost goes down.

We built a very big herd with cheap money over the last decade. That should not be thought of as either a good or bad thing. It is a big thing. Keep that in mind.

E) It is important to bear in mind something Bush didn't cover - where the money came from to feed the herd.

Our trade deficit.

He mentioned foreign money coming here. What he didn't mention is that they came here as dollars. That matters. A lot.

The money coming in here represents US dollars that were earned in trade by companies all over the world. When Great Wall Purse Company (GWPC) of Shanghai sells $2 million of purses to WalMart they get paid by WalMart in US Dollars. But GWPC doesn't pay its workers and many vendors in dollars. They take the check from WalMart and ask their bank to convert it. How does the bank do it? As it works out, much of those dollars are bought up by the Chinese govt. It becomes part of their currency reserves. Does it just sit there? It could, but it is smarter to send it to the US Government in exchange for an IOU. Or they (or a Chinese entrepreneur) can invest those dollars here, or even in other countries that will take dollars.

Now remember that "trust" thing about lending?

As long as there is trust that Americans are good for money they borrow, most of the dollars that result from our trade deficits will come back here as some form of investment. But what if that trust goes away? What do they do with their dollars?

They buy something in dollars that will keep its value.

Like gold. Or oil.

What about real estate? Oh yeah - no one is buying that right now because it isn't holding its value.

In the 80s the Japanese were making plenty of dollars they bought real estate and drove up prices as they bought trophy properties from LA to NYC. Then the bubble burst and they had to sell those assets at a loss.

That ain't happening now. Remember that dynamic equilibrium thing? And the herd?

What IS happening is that the short term, irrational real estate panic by the herd is eliminating what would otherwise be a safe haven for dollars held by foreign entities that made money here and are otherwise happy to invest it here.

Instead, those dollars will buy commodities which will drive up the prices of those commodities and create inflation here. And as that dollar dumping forms its own herd, those dollars will be worth less and less (supply and demand) as those prices go higher and higher. meanwhile, you still get paid in dollars - everything gets more expensive but your pay doesn't go up - why should it.

... continues ...

If some sort of agreement is not reached, it won't just be "Wallstreet" (whatever that means) that takes a hit. It will be every business that depends on credit to finance inventory purchases, every bank that offers accounts to every consumer, and every worker who wants a job.

Every 401K will be wiped out, and millions will lose their retirement savings.

No agreement means continued credit freeze, which will put tens of thousands of businesses out of business. Which buts tens of millions of workers out of work. Which puts the economy of the United States of America in a depression worse than the one of 70 plus years ago.

So when you say "Wallstreet" should take the hit and the "taxpayers" shouldn't have to pay, understand that in the end, the whole country will pay.

We cannot afford that price tag.

All the University Business School's say NO BAILOUT! It will destroy Capitalism. NOW the libs don't listen to the schools!

McCain will deliver a deal and the Republican House votes on it.
I predict this will happen by tomorrow morning.

The big dog can DO THIS!

re: #101 joelmichael

Interesting. Thanks.

I'm just trying to gather as many facts as I can. This helps.

re: #88 karmic_inquisitor

Thanks,great explanation

re: #90 taxfreekiller

Exactly. The Democrat MO.
1. Make the problem.
2. Do nothing but block attempts to solve the problem.
3. Blame the folks who have been trying to solve the problem.
4. Gain wealth, power, and bonus points for advancing Marxism.

Worked in the inner cities. Worked for Nagin and Landreau. Worked for everything they've ever touched. We didn't win the cold war. It's still on, only the enemy is here and well-established.

Slightly, but not totally OT, I was listening to CFRB radio today and there were a few smug Canadian, NDP idiots calling in and being oh so smug about this thing.

I will bet any Lizard here, a cold cup of decaf coffee that more than a few of the callers work for Ford or GM.

Like this is not going to smack those workers right in the wallet.

This is a very serious problem.

There is corruption at the top and at the bottom of all this. The government is responsible for setting the regulations for sound financial transfers. The common good is fiscal well being. At the point it becomes a national crisis then the free market is not working and government does need to step in and change what led us to this point. Let the market collapse without any positive change will do what? not much.

100 million dollar CEO payments need to be rescinded. Wall Street needs a good Whacking. Faulty mortgages based on false information need to be re written at a maintainable "no arm", "no negative interest" rate. No one should be losing a home over this unless they flat out can't make a payment. Set these bad mortgages to a 6 percent rate and see who can maintain them. Let anyone higher than a 6, move down. Take all this 30 percent credit card debt that low income people are being struck with and set it at 6. Wait 5 years and open it back up with better rules.

An organized solution is needed.

re: #1 Sharmuta

I agree with Ayatollah Ghilmeini.

Yep I favor the bailout, in the end it could be a break even if they sit on the assets long enough that they appreciate again. One thing AG missed in his excellent write up was the guarantors. They underfunded the guarantee funds, and basically welshed on a bet they lost. The problem is that the ones running are also big insurance and credit giants, if they tumble then it's cash and carry as AG says.

re: #9 Zimriel

You get a "ding" up from me for that statement. God, how splendidly can sarcasm show the truth!

re: #91 lawhawk

That's right boys and girls. Sen. Obama. Just present. No actual ideas to help solve this mess.

As we all know, that's because he has absolutely nothing to offer. He really and truly is an empty vessel. I just don't comprehend why the entire planet can't see it. It's plain as day.

re: #91 lawhawk
oh but wait, about an hour ago on MFNBC a common tater ( I don't know the fool's name) was braying that John McCain didn't offer an alternative proposal in the meeting! and that fact means that he was just pulling a silly stunt and had no reason to be there at all. He then continued on with the latest dem talking point. That is the narrative they want the msm to pick up.
And you know the bastards will.

re: #92 obageegee

I had to ding you up for that just because the women in my life seem to have this unhealthy infatuation with HGTV.

And if we were smart and confident Americans (which I know we all are) we would give Paulson everything he is asking for and add one thing to it - he can keep 5% of the profit for himself and any other treasury employees he choses to share it with.

Then we'd be sure to come out of this better than before.

That's a cool idea. It'll never happen, but I think it's cool.

re: #54 mama winger

Are they talking about Paul Ryan (R-Wisconsin0?

He is my congressman and is a financial conservative extraordinairre. He is a good good man and whatever he says, I would believe it.

i saw that too, very interesting. i'm not an expert but I'd like to hear the experts flesh this idea out a bit more and explain why it wouldn't be a good idea.

re: #97 sngnsgt

Pollster says election could end in landslide

The presidential election might be a tight race now, but one of the country’s top pollsters thinks the race will end in an electoral landslide.
John Zogby, president of Zogby International, told a group of businesspeople today that it’s up to Democratic Sen. Barack Obama to convince voters to go with him. If he’s not successful, the country will likely vote for “a comfortable old shoe”, that being Republican Sen. John McCain.

Despite the books Obama has written, Americans are still asking, “Who are you, where are you from?,” Zogby said.

noooooo. hope!
I hope he gets elected so every time he does something fucktardish like... help Iran with its peaceful nuclear endeavors... I get called racist for disagreeing.
hey Obama, you can't cut ties with Israel and throw them to to wolves.
RACIST!
hey, Obama, don't outlaw all energy production but wind and solar
RACIST!

re: #108 Taqiyyotomist

Where do they go to cash in those bonus points? is there like a 'party store' they used to have in the ussr where they can go trade them for like, a new ottoman? not the footstool but a real live one to kneel at their feet for them to rest their legs on, of course...

McCain is unpredictable. It is uncertain why he is pulling this stunt, and it isn't for the "forgotten man". It must be to get Yobama off his Alinsky game.

It doesn't matter in the long run. I'm not certain that McCain is a socialist, BUT I KNOW OBAMA IS!

Give it up for the maverick.

re: #33 LC Hoghead

ABC News: Deal May Be Dead: Democrats Blaming McCain
Thursday, September 25, 2008 Jake Tapper, Charles Herman and Z. Byron Wolf

After days of intense bipartisan negotiations and meetings today at the White House, the deal to bail out staggered investment banks may be dying amid partisan finger-pointing. Republicans blame Democrats. Democrats blame Republicans, and a key Democrat even pointed a finger at Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain. House Financial Services Chairman Barney Frank, D-Mass., told Democratic colleagues that McCain's sudden heightened involvement in the negotiations has destroyed chance of an agreement, sources told ABC's George Stephanopoulos. Frank compared McCain's involvement to "Richard Nixon blowing up the Vietnam peace talks in 1968."

I posted this in a previous thread, sorry if it's already been posted by others but Barney Frank is very dirty in all of this

Now that the Feds are effectively nationalizing the banking, mortgage, and securities industries, what now? What the hell is stopped the Federal Government from taking over everything? Oil is next, because they are actually making money, despite all in the government and private "do-gooders" that want to see Oil sabotaged and fail. The auto industry is ready with their hands out, since it's worked so well with others thus far.

We are going into the tank for what will be more like five or six TRILLION dollars after all is said and done. Our children and the next three generations after them will be slaves to the Feds, and probably the Russians and the Red Chinese, too...after all, they've bought a lot of America's paper and will call that in anytime, now, too.

What is to stop the credit card issuers from calling in EVERY single debt owed to them from consumers, who are paying as much as 35% and more in unsecured debt, run up to satisfy the "need" for cheap-assed crap from China?

Economically, anyway, it looks like Paul was right al along! His foreign policy theories are pure shit, but his economics? Dead on.

This ain't gonna end up pretty.

wonder if Obama will be standing alone at the debate hall when the networks cut to the press conference announcing the bail out deal

re: #39 Killian Bundy

I've also noticed that CNN is repeating that same meme...(That's the Obama campaigners -- non-stop -- at CNN)...in a way, it's predictable.

Franklin Raines cannot be questioned! The reverse red lining that is behind most of these failed mortgages is simply a response by those feeling "white guilt". The greedy Libs on Wall Street exploited the situation and now all working Americans can be reduced to poverty. Tomarrow I leave for Alaska--the last frontier!

US ‘will lose financial superpower status’
By Bertrand Benoit in Berlin

Published: September 25 2008

The US will lose its role as a global financial “superpower” in the wake of the financial crisis, Peer Steinbrück, German finance minister, forecast on Thursday in the most outspoken comments by a senior European government figure since Wall Street plunged into chaos two weeks ago.

Mr Steinbrück, a Social Democrat and long-time champion of tougher financial market rules, said the US government was to blame for the severity of the crisis because it had resisted European calls for stricter regulation until it was too late.

“The US will lose its status as the superpower of the world financial system” with the emergence of stronger, better-capitalised centres in Asia and Europe, he told the German parliament. “The world will never be the same again.”

His comments echo deep anger in Germany at the perceived recklessness of Anglo-Saxon financial engineering and a feeling that the US model of economic liberalism has failed while the more regulated, long-term oriented and industry-based German economy has proved more resilient.

“Ten years from now,” he later told journalists, “we will see 2008 as a fundamental rupture. I am not saying the dollar will lose its reserve currency status, but it will become relative.”

The minister said it had been “irresponsible” of the US government to oppose stricter regulation even after the subprime crisis had broken out. This laisser faire ideology, he said, “was as simplistic as it was dangerous ... This largely under-regulated system is collapsing today.”

Mr Steinbrück did have warm words for the US’s crisis management in the past fortnight, including the planned $700bn rescue package for the financial sector. Washington, he said, had acted not just in the US’s interest but also in the interest of other nations.

Speaking after Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president and current holder of the European Union presidency, called for an emergency G8 meeting on the financial crisis, Mr Steinbrück said tougher capital market rules were now urgently needed.

His proposals include a ban on “speculative short selling”; a crackdown on variable pay for bankers; a ban on banks securitising more than 80 per cent of any asset they hold; international standards making bank managers personally responsible for their trades and increased supervisory co-operation.

He said France and Germany would set up a working group of treasury, central bank and supervisory authority officials.

what exactly are we watching?

I gotta get on the freeway ... catch ya later.

re: #109 whiterasta

Slightly, but not totally OT, I was listening to CFRB radio today and there were a few smug Canadian, NDP idiots calling in and being oh so smug about this thing.

I will bet any Lizard here, a cold cup of decaf coffee that more than a few of the callers work for Ford or GM.

Like this is not going to smack those workers right in the wallet.

This is a very serious problem.

What they might not get is that what happens here ripples. Unlike ripples in water these financial ripples grow instead of shrink as they leave our shores. Other markets will be hurt far, far worse by this by time it all winds out, and that includes Canada.

re: #116 Fenway_Nation
It's not unhealthy, it is the same feel good dreaming as sports or cars , guns are to many men

re: #42 yochanan

can anyone say HERBERT HOOVER

/You mean Hoobert Heaver?

I have every confidence in the American people. You will figure out a way out of this goat-shag.

re: #119 spidly

You.... want 0bama to get elected so you can be called a racist? That's just stupid.

Charles,

I am sorry to see you fall into the same trap as these others (via Rush Linbaugh):

BROWN: ... a smart move or a maybe a Hail Mary pass on his part.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The longest Hail Mary pass....

YELLIN: ...a Hail Mary pass...

BLITZER: He's looking for a Hail Mary.

COOPER: ... a Hail Mary pass...

CROWLEY: The Hail Mary.

KRAUTHAMMER: How many Hail Mary's can one guy throw in one game?

MADDOW: ...throw the ultimate Hail Mary pass.

TODD: McCain is throwing a Hail Mary.

SAMMON: McCain loves to throw these Hail Mary passes.

MATTHEWS: It's the longest Hail Mary pass in history of football, or Hail Mary's!

There: #101 joelmichael

Milton Friedman believed the Great Depression was avoidable. His argument was that the Federal Reserve was created to be a lender of last resort, but that it refused to loan money to banks in their time of need.

Today, we are facing a similar situation. Banks and investment firms refusing to lend to one another due to fear of default is effectively the same as depositors withdrawing their money, but on a higher level.

...The US's 80% stake of AIG will certainly give good returns down the line, as AIG is ultimately a stable company that was sold at a firesale price due to temporary liquidity problems.

Lender of last resort, of course, but lending to whom and for what is key. During the depression real asset values plummeted in stock and trade. We were tight on natural resources and the value of good plummeted.

This is not the same situation it's a credit problem. Property was bought at x price, people borrowed x+y. Property values plummeted (r) as buyers dried up then the fear of (x+y)-r caused people who's income is also drying up compared to increased cost of living feel that they should dump causing (r) to further increase. Throwing cash back at these lending institutions without addressing the cause is suicide.

This bailout must address the lending practices first before money is put forth.

Karmic--Well-written, thank you.

My husband is extremely well-versed in economics and also normally very much against over-taxation (an economic republican), and he is extremely concerned that there will not be a bailout. I trust his judgment on this implicitly, as he has historically predicted several major boom and bust cycles. He predicted a couple of months ago that the economy would get much worse, even while some talking heads on TV didn't see it that way.

re: #83 karmic_inquisitor

FWIW I posted this on the crisis thread yesterday after it went dead.

It is Fjordmanesque in length but I tried to stick to a relevant narrative. Some found it useful.

-----------------

A) This isn't a bailout. It is actually a buying opportunity. Thing is that there is only one entity on the planet that can pull the trigger on the buying.

B) Those saying that the market should do its work don't understand markets. Markets are very efficient and rational in the long run. In the short run, however, they are quite often extremely irrational. Day traders and hedge funds make all sorts of money exploiting the time and space between short run irrational and long run rational. Herds are stupid, but reward and pain will work together to point them in the right direction. The market provides reward and pain. Problem is, this round of pain we are facing has the potential to kill the herd.

People here would join me in condemning the freaky ecowhackos who tell us that a pandemic that kills of half of humanity would be a good thing. We know those people exist and we know they are morons. I am asking you to get in touch with your inner moron if you think we should let the market collapse and see what happens. We live in a highly industrialized society where our population is simply not equipped to go back to foraging for food while we wait out the half century for our highly stratified economy to reassemble itself after credit is eliminated from our economy for a few years and hyper inflation sets in.

C) Lending money is an act of trust. Ever loan money to a friend or family member? What did you do after they were slow to pay it back? Or not pay at all? Oh -- you stopped lending.

Our entire industrialized society depends on lending. We have built efficiencies into our economy that assume the continued existence of lending. Been to WalMart? There is not a single product on a WalMart shelf that WalMart has paid for. Not one. At any WalMart anywhere. The vendor gets paid well after you pay WalMart. WalMart operates at very low margins and makes much of its money as a bank of sorts - they put money to work for a while before paying the vendors. If lending seizes WalMart goes away. Gone. No jobs. No cheap goods. And because WalMart's efficiencies wiped out other retailers a long time ago, there is no alternative supply channel to many towns that can scale if it goes away.

Imagine a slow motion collapse of all sorts of businesses and services around you - what do you start doing? That's right - you start hoarding what you can for your family.

The point is that the "trust" underlying lending in our economy is going away as the financiers try to hoard cash in an effort to survive.

It is highly irrational. But it is a herd with momentum. It will corrrect if you provide it the pain of collapse, but the collapse will cause you pain for decades.

... continues ...

we have never had a totally free market even in the 19th century the gov't gave the railroads land so they would build cross country rail. the rail roads gave the land to settlers who would then need the rail to send food to the east and buy stuff from the east.

if we don't fix this the iranian short shit might be right.

re: #130 Thanos

What they might not get is that what happens here ripples. Unlike ripples in water these financial ripples grow instead of shrink as they leave our shores. Other markets will be hurt far, far worse by this by time it all winds out, and that includes Canada.

BAH! the Kanuckistani economic juggernaut is in no way dependent on the US economy

So much of this shit has been as a direct result of Congresscritters that have passed laws that enabled this very behavior to occur! They pressed banks to lend to people that had no way to pay the money back, or else the Feds would use anti-discrimination lawsuits to tie them up forever! Countrywide Mortgage actively solicited business from illegal aliens, for God's sake, knowing full well the house would be foreclosed on eventually! And they required nearly NONE of the paperwork and job evidence that they would have if you or I had gone to them for a home loan!

Is this shit really a surprise to anyone? Talk about sheer craziness!

Ok, look. I've heard all the reasons why this is a bad idea, and it just plain sucks to give the government any more power than it's already got. But sometimes a bad solution is the only one you've got, that is, other than the catastrophic solution of doing nothing. There is no cost-free option here - doing nothing will have plenty of costs, and they'll likely be much greater than we realize.

You have to realize that we're in this mess largely because of what the government did, so to think that it was a free market problem that can be solved by free market solutions isn't really the correct way to think about it.

This has to do with the government allowing way too much easy money more recently, and for them pushing low mortgage requirements on banks for the last 15 or so years, going all the way back to the formation of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac in the early and mid part of last century. Did the financial market try to make a dime off all this and bite off more than they could chew? You bet they did. But that's what happens when the free market and the government collide.

Right now, the biggest risk to our economy is an extreme credit shortage. That means there's no money to be lent. If there's no one lending money, then millions of people and thousands of businesses are up a creek without a paddle. People can't get loans to buy houses (or anything else) and businesses fail because so many businesses absolutely require there be credit out there for them to make it, whether it be for a startup or to just make it through a rough season, and we're about to have the mother of all rough holiday seasons, a time at which so many businesses hope to move from the red into the black. I'm worried that this year's supposed 'Black Friday' will be a 'We're Still In The Red Friday', and that many more businesses will face the long march of months until the (relatively) profitable summer season.

I've spoken to a number of friends and family in the financial industry and the legal profession, across the political spectrum, and this is what we're both hearing and experiencing. I'm sure there are people who will shoot me down (as they've already done elsewhere) by saying that it's no big deal and that we'll weather this no matter what, how dare I embrace socialism, etc., but realize that you've probably not looked at the problem as much as you need to. This isn't just like bailing out Bear Stearns, for example, or even just like bailing out Chrysler. This is a much, much larger problem that requires immediate action, however distasteful it might seem to conservative principles.

re: #130 Thanos

I agree 100% This is a big problem that will drag down everyone.

re: #128 LC Hoghead

I could really care less what the europeans think of all this. Maybe when they find a way to improve their own unemployment numbers and deal with their out-of-control welfare state I'll think they have something worthwhile to say about American economics.

re: #134 Sharmuta

You.... want 0bama to get elected so you can be called a racist? That's just stupid.

didn't think I actually needed a sarc tag for that one. go figure

Agreed with that, thanks!

re: #101 joelmichael

Milton Friedman believed the Great Depression was avoidable. His argument was that the Federal Reserve was created to be a lender of last resort, but that it refused to loan money to banks in their time of need. This resulted in bank runs as people reasonably tried to avoid losing everything as banks collapsed.

Today, we are facing a similar situation. Banks and investment firms refusing to lend to one another due to fear of default is effectively the same as depositors withdrawing their money, but on a higher level. The financial companies get a bad rap, but in reality they are the brains of the entire economic system. They allocate money efficiently, invest in new business, and generally make the whole world more prosperous and comfortable. If they significantly slow or stop their operations, the effects will spread out like shock waves.

Ben Bernanke, a longtime supporter of Friedman's views, is doing what he can to restore confidence in the markets. Henry Paulson is there with him, and has also vocalized that only some investment firms should be allowed to fail completely, depending on the likely outcome of their failure. This helps prevent the idea of moral hazard. Moral hazard, in the form of government guarantees of Freddie and Fannie's bad mortgage purchases, is what caused this problem.

To bail out these banks is not to accept communism. It is not to reject capitalism. It is to accept our system of modified capitalism and government-issued currency. It is to accept that our government can influence the markets in beneficial ways. You won't get a stronger free market advocate than Milton Friedman, and he would definitely believe this was the right thing to do. Warren Buffet, Alan Greenspan, Barack Obama, John McCain, The Economist -- all agree that we have an opportunity to avoid unbeforeseen disaster by restoring confidence to the credit markets. Only the true idealists, such as Ron Paul, Bob Barr, Ralph Nader, and others generally paranoid about government oppose it.

Furthermore, these funds would be like an investment. The US's 80% stake of AIG will certainly give good returns down the line, as AIG is ultimately a stable company that was sold at a firesale price due to temporary liquidity problems. When the housing market stabilizes -- projected by Greenspan to likely occur in early 2009 -- a chain reaction of events will go off that will restore the economy. The goal is to bring us from here to there, and avert catastrophe.

Well, if all those UFO buffs are right, this would be as good as a time as any for those little space-freaks to land, in mass, and save our asses.

"Ladies and gentlemen, uh, we've just seen the big picture, but what we've seen speaks for itself. The Chinese have apparently taken over -- 'conquered' if you will – ironically by a race of isolationist. It's difficult to tell from this vantage point whether they will consume our captive final resources or merely enslave us all. One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the Chinese will soon be here. And I for one welcome our new Overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted Fox TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground mushroom caves."

Obama keeps saying that McCain is trying to inject Presidential Politics into this.

I see it as McCain is doing his job.

Write it down folks, you heard it here first.

McCain will deliver a bill and the votes to pass it either tonight or early tomorrow morning.

SAVE THIS POST lol

re: #147 Walter L. Newton

Or blow our asses up! Hell, I'll even mute the "Slim Whitman".

Hiya Walter.

re: #140 spidly

I believe it was the late, "Great?" Trudeau who stated that when America sneezes, Canada catches a cold.

(May G-d damn his soul to hell.)

OT, But what the hell............

New Avatar. What do ya think. Side note.. I purchased my "supplies" and "money" about the same time Clinton got elected. There is always a SILVER lining around the darkest cloud. Are you people just now waking up?

re: #119 spidly

noooooo. hope!
I hope he gets elected so every time he does something fucktardish like... help Iran with its peaceful nuclear endeavors... I get called racist for disagreeing.
hey Obama, you can't cut ties with Israel and throw them to to wolves.
RACIST!
hey, Obama, don't outlaw all energy production but wind and solar
RACIST!

Zogby is in the tank for McCain, they're helping McSame steal the election.

/moonbat

re: #149 Typicalwhitey

SAVE THIS POST

I just did.

re: #150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Or blow our asses up! Hell, I'll even mute the "Slim Whitman". Hiya Walter.

That's funny. I am sitting here right now looking over my set of reproduction "Mars Attacks" trading cards, which were reproduced in the 1980's, from the original set circa 1963.

Which of course, those cards were not funny, quite voilent and scary, and Burton ran with the general idea to create his spoof.

OT, I haven't read all the posts that I have missed while at work.
Have you guys seen this?

re: #151 taxfreekiller

I agree, it'll pass, but at what cost? Either way, many hard-working, honest people are going to see all or most of what they have, wiped out. And the people in Congress and the indusrty bosses that bought their way to riches? Not a damn thing will happen to Frank, Biden, or any of them. They will get away with it, intact, and scott-free.

re: #2 spidly

buying opportunity

Not yet the bottom is still falling. When it is at bottom only those that are currently cash positive will be able to buy. Credit will be an issue for some time, and rightfully so.

re: #152 whiterasta

I believe it was the late, "Great?" Trudeau who stated that when America sneezes, Canada catches a cold.

(May G-d damn his soul to hell.)

Some people in the other countries realize what is at stake for them. If the US goes down it will bring other countries down as well. Not a pretty thought.

re: #157 kcladderman

I hope he sues that puke so badly, the puke ends up living under a bridge in a cardboard box.

re: #109 whiterasta

For the first time I heard today on the local news that the Canadian economy might not be as "safe and secure" as we've been led to believe...Yeah, duh...(up here we've had precisely the same mortgage fiasco's occurring -- house values were inflated to double their worth, money has been lent to all and sundry with zero down, etc., etc., we have had the same thing going on up here for quite some time -- and now, things apparently are under 'correction' -- we're in a downturn...)

re: #152 whiterasta

Wasn't Trudeau the one responsible for the high cost of gas in Canada, when, as PM, he made a deal with the western Provinces?

Just keep in mind that these are still backed by assets. The price of those assets are down now, but... in thirty years the US will still be one of the best damned places in the world to live. Real estate here will rise again. It's not a solid loss, much of this can and will be recouped.

re: #147 Walter L. Newton

Well, if all those UFO buffs are right, this would be as good as a time as any for those little space-freaks to land, in mass, and save our asses.

With our luck, though, they'd all be carrying a book named TO SERVE MANKIND.

re: #139 yochanan

we have never had a totally free market even in the 19th century the gov't gave the railroads land so they would build cross country rail. the rail roads gave the land to settlers who would then need the rail to send food to the east and buy stuff from the east.

if we don't fix this the iranian short shit might be right.

I watched Glenn Beck and he had Mikheil Saakashvili (president of Georgia) on.

Saakashvili said essentially the same thing.

He said that if we show even a little bit of weakness (including hesitancy in the financial markets), the wolves will be all over us.
He was not only referring to Iran. He meant the whole pack.

If you think Iraq/Afghanastan are expensive now, "national security issues" will get out of control if we hit a depression and stop funding those things.

If it gets to that, a lot of people are going to get their wish about "staying home to defend the country".

re: #149 Typicalwhitey

Obama keeps saying that McCain is trying to inject Presidential Politics into this.

I see it as McCain is doing his job.

Write it down folks, you heard it here first.

McCain will deliver a bill and the votes to pass it either tonight or early tomorrow morning.

SAVE THIS POST lol

I think I prefer Presidential Politics rather than bullshit Politics.

re: #158 6pat6

I agree, it'll pass, but at what cost? Either way, many hard-working, honest people are going to see all or most of what they have, wiped out. And the people in Congress and the indusrty bosses that bought their way to riches? Not a damn thing will happen to Frank, Biden, or any of them. They will get away with it, intact, and scott-free.

That's the way I see it. It's folks like me, with barely no outstanding credit, and a almost fixed income, who will see our taxes increased.

And even worst, what if Obama gets elected and trys to implement his programs.

His programs on top of all this bailout expenses. I'm going to get slmammed.

I've not shared my financial woes this week but, they've been significant, they've been deep. The best thing I could do for myself today was to work on Phase I of my Fall Scouring (similar to Spring Cleaning but, deeper and more exacting), make a picnic and take The Kid to the park.

Twenty minutes swinging high through the air was worth any amount of Valium. Try it tomorrow if you get a few minutes. Sneak away to the park: loosen your tie, shed your hose and shoes and untuck your shirt.

Now where'd I leave my crystal ball?

/Extra handy for selecting stocks, ponies, powerball numbers and football upsets.

re: #164 Thanos

Just keep in mind that these are still backed by assets. The price of those assets are down now, but... in thirty years the US will still be one of the best damned places in the world to live. Real estate here will rise again. It's not a solid loss, much of this can and will be recouped.

Agreed. The US still has the best assets in the world.

Wait, that didn't sound right.

re: #132 NY Nana

/You mean Hoobert Heaver?

I'm extremely naive to economics, however, could this be a way for the EU to step in and 'help' America better handle its finances?

OT - how are you Blood Sugars today?

re: #160 Perplexed

True, but the Euro-Wankers and that school of thought is quite smug and secretly delighted at America's troubles.

They have no idea this affects them too. The ripples emanating from America grow bigger as they spread, as a Lizard recently pointed out.

re: #170 MandyManners

{Mandy}!

Skipping is good too! Great idea!

re: #49 Fenway_Nation

He gave something or took something, but I'm not sure it was a job.

re: #80 ciaospirit

Frank Raines should go straight to jail.

At this stage, doing so would definitely be considered "racist"(not that I give a damn)...BUT many others should be going with him. (it would still be considered "racist" by the Michelle's, Hasting's, Wright's, Farrakhan's, etc....but screw them.

re: #170 MandyManners

I've not shared my financial woes this week but, they've been significant, they've been deep. The best thing I could do for myself today was to work on Phase I of my Fall Scouring (similar to Spring Cleaning but, deeper and more exacting), make a picnic and take The Kid to the park.

Twenty minutes swinging high through the air was worth any amount of Valium. Try it tomorrow if you get a few minutes. Sneak away to the park: loosen your tie, shed your hose and shoes and untuck your shirt.

{MandyManners}

You have your priorities straight.

You're in my prayers. Take care.

re: #172 Charles

The assets stand to get a might better should Sarah Palin get in office.

/I'm sorry - I couldn't help it

I see the Paulbots have arrived.

Please note that there aren't enough precious metal reserves on the planet, either mined or still in the ground, to back the monetization of the worldwide economy.

/there's a good reason no country on Earth still uses the Gold Standard

re: #178 goddessoftheclassroom

{GODDESS}!

How's by you?

re: #172 Charles

Agreed. The US still has the best assets in the world.

Wait, that didn't sound right.

Unfortunately, the US also has some of the biggest asses. And I'm not talking about the ones in office, although those count, too. No, I'm talking about the ones you sit on.

every bus. needs credit, credit gets harder to get then bus. no longer can hire people instead have to lay people off.

THIS IS THAT IMPORTANT.

Newt just challenged Paulson or Bernanke to a debate over the merits of their plan. i'd like to see that.

re: #170 MandyManners

I've not shared my financial woes this week but, they've been significant, they've been deep. The best thing I could do for myself today was to work on Phase I of my Fall Scouring (similar to Spring Cleaning but, deeper and more exacting), make a picnic and take The Kid to the park.

Twenty minutes swinging high through the air was worth any amount of Valium. Try it tomorrow if you get a few minutes. Sneak away to the park: loosen your tie, shed your hose and shoes and untuck your shirt.

That sounds like a good idea. I can't do much of anything right now, since the surgery. I'm going crazy just sitting around everyday. But doc says no real physical activity for a few weeks.

I'd love to take a swing.

re: #172 Charles

The US Women's Olympic beach volleyball team looked like they had nice...... never mind!

re: #181 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

{GODDESS}!

How's by you?

{Fat Bastard Vegetarian}

I'm fine, thanks!

I'm almost worried that I'm so dense about economics that I'm not worried...

This Fannie Mae jerk kissing up to the Congressional Black Caucus with Michelle Hussein O proudly looking on speaks volumes about where B. Hussein will take our country.

I'd just like to add that this is also a good example of how we could improve economics education in this country. When I got to college it seemed to me the credit card companies were predatory with my peers. I never went that route, but I watched a lot of friends and acquaintances get sucked into the seemingly never ending loop of "trading up" to another credit card with a larger line of credit to avoid paying for the credit they'd already racked up. It's got to suck to be these people right about now. I've never been good with credit, so I've avoided it. But it also seems to me that these credit companies made this bed for themselves by targeting people they knew had bad credit in the hopes of being able to bilk them more later. Assholes offering credit to idiots. But perhaps if kids were educated better about this sort of thing, and about economics in general, we'd see less of a problem today.

re: #163 NY Nana

No, no, no! Trudeau set up a National Energy Plan -- created a National gas station (government owned called PetroCan -- now defunct), and drove out the capitalists...basically ruined the oil industry in Alberta...(oil exploration tanked, etc.) Trudeau is, to this day, not well liked in Alberta...(he did this without seeking either the approval or agreement of the Western provinces -- he just acted as Emperor...)

re: #73 Killian Bundy

That's predictable.

/if this deal doesn't get done, in a form that's not totally useless, expect tomorrow to end up much worse

If I do that I won't be able to sleep.

I'll lie to myself and pretend our politicians are responsible people.

re: #183 yochanan

This is key - many businesses' payroll function off of loans that are repaid as receivables come in - this ensures payroll is met even if Company X decides net 30 doesn't apply to them.

I don't know what the answer is, but the question scares the hell out of me. I've been through this before with the dot.com bubble. My husband had a great job, so we bought a house well within our means, but less then a year later 9/11 happened then the dot.com burst. Husband gets laid off and can't find a job for 6 months. Well after 6 months we use up all of our money and have to sell our house. Any money we have from selling the house is used to rent a house for a year, because you see our credit was fubar because of not being able to pay our bills for several months. Anyway, we were eventually able to buy a house 1/2 the size of the original for twice as much. Not trying to put out a sob story, but I don't know how far this trickles down, if the shit hits the fan and my husband gets laid off again, we're screwed. So what's the answer, part of me wants to let the shit hit the fan, but the other part of me, the one with two young daughters and a one income house wants this whole situation stabilized. Sorry for the rant.

re: #184 alien_mind

Newt just challenged Paulson or Bernanke to a debate over the merits of their plan. i'd like to see that.

Same here. All I keep hearing is we have to do this. Not much talk about the alternatives. I'd like to know if anyone else has some ideas, some other plan.

In the least, if they are going to do this, there should at least be some really tight oversight, and NO ONE should profit from this.

Fat chance.

re: #187 goddessoftheclassroom

{Fat Bastard Vegetarian}

I'm fine, thanks!

I'm almost worried that I'm so dense about economics that I'm not worried...

Look up dense in the Dictionary; that's my picture beside it.

re: #172 Charles

Agreed. The US still has the best assets in the world.

Wait, that didn't sound right.

Yes we have the assets and congress has the asshats.

THE GREAT DEPRESSION WAS A WORLD WIDE THING so will this if done wrong.

re: #157 kcladderman

Yes, I linked it in one of the earlier threads today. I've decide from now on, 'he' will be the "Mutha Who Will Not Be Named" until our Brothers get their good name restored to them, which is what the "Mutha Who Will Not Be Named" stole from them. Lowlife freakin' thief.

re: #164 Thanos

Just keep in mind that these are still backed by assets. The price of those assets are down now, but... in thirty years the US will still be one of the best damned places in the world to live. Real estate here will rise again. It's not a solid loss, much of this can and will be recouped.

But the government will keep and spend much of the recouped.

re: #183 yochanan

every bus. needs credit, credit gets harder to get then bus. no longer can hire people instead have to lay people off.

THIS IS THAT IMPORTANT.

/and it spirals down, FIX IT NOW, it's going to be a hell of a lot MORE EXPENSIVE TO FIX LATER!

re: #190 J.S.

Trudeau is not very well liked anywhere in Canada. He was a great pal of Castro, Michael Manley, Samora Machel and any other thug who was anti-American.

Spit.

re: #172 Charles

Agreed. The US still has the best assets in the world.

Wait, that didn't sound right.

Yes, it's the American Spirit and those remaining few not afraid to get their hands dirty again and take new risk.

re: #195 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Look up dense in the Dictionary; that's my picture beside it.

That's you? Your not fat at all!

OK, now I feel a bit safer.

I just transferred all my assets to Zimbabwean dollars and shares in Steam-Engines-R-Us.

re: #193 spypeach

Not a rant at all. Many of us feel exactly the same way. We hate this idea, but don't have another idea.

re: #170 MandyManners

I've not shared my financial woes this week but, they've been significant, they've been deep. The best thing I could do for myself today was to work on Phase I of my Fall Scouring (similar to Spring Cleaning but, deeper and more exacting), make a picnic and take The Kid to the park.

Twenty minutes swinging high through the air was worth any amount of Valium. Try it tomorrow if you get a few minutes. Sneak away to the park: loosen your tie, shed your hose and shoes and untuck your shirt.

Woo hoo, that's one special outfit we'd be wearing, Mandy! ;-)

It does help to pack up one's troubles for a while and just have some fun. Good for you, and for The Kid too.

nor laup did not even learn from the great depression which i am sure he saw. the one thing about John McCain unlike obama he has seen some of this before. obama has to learn everthing as if it was new.

re: #199 ciaospirit

But the government will keep and spend much of the recouped.

Well- then perhaps we'll be able to clamor for some tax cuts. Or they could shore up Social Security since they already ripped that off and the IOUs will be due at some point.

re: #172 Charles

Agreed. The US still has the best assets in the world.

Wait, that didn't sound right.

Does this post make my assets look big?

re: #155 NY Nana

I just did.

I will go one further.

It will be a series of loans/bailouts, not an entire bailout.
Similar to what was done with Chrysler back in the 80's.
There will be a way to recoup the money for the American people.

So JPMorgan just bought Washington Mutual. Interesting. I keep changing bank, even though I don't do anything to make it happen!

re: #209 Intrepid

Does this post make my assets look big?

LMAO!

re: #173 outsidephilly

I really am a Luddite re economics, but feel like each and every American has been kicked on the tush with a steel-tipped boot, especially the alleged middle class...

The blood sugars are much better today, thanks. Diabetes can be very quirky damn it.

I just hope that you are not speaking from experience. NY Grampa is also a Type II, who I diagnosed...never sent him a bill. ;) I caught it, by accident, when it was in a very early stage. He is not on any meds, and knock wood, is fine on diet control for the last 10 years, after my Endocrinologist confirmed the diagnosis...I had misheard what he said, told him to test on my meter, and for once in about 46 years, he actually listened to me. When I saw his blood glucose level, I kept the shock out of my eyes..as a retired RN, I was able to not let it show.

re: #172 Charles

Were you're perhaps thinking ASSetsre: #170 MandyManners

{Mandy} If I may. Good to see you.

I keep changing bank = I keep changing banks

re: #211 zombie

So JPMorgan just bought Washington Mutual.

/they need the deposit base for capitalization, probably still not enough

re: #175 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

{Mandy}!

Skipping is good too! Great idea!

Anything to lighten the heart, to ease the burden.

re: #215 zombie

I keep changing bank = I keep changing banks

I didn't know you stuttered!

re: #202 Egfrow

re: #215 zombie

I keep changing bank = I keep changing banks

Mattresses still work.

Can someone explain what's going on with WaMu? I thought they'd dumped their mortgages onto Wells Fargo last year.

re: #217 MandyManners

Anything to lighten the heart, to ease the burden.

May I suggest sex?

re: #211 zombie

So JPMorgan just bought Washington Mutual. Interesting. I keep changing bank, even though I don't do anything to make it happen!

Just a taste of the "change" you can believe in.

re: #215 zombie

my bank keeps changing me i have been at the same location through 5 banks.

re: #221 Walter L. Newton

May I suggest sex?

alone?

Pardon my ignorance, but does this affect the likes of Microsoft, Google and Exxon in any significant way?

I started out long ago with an account in one bank; then that was eventually gobbled up by another bank; and then that bank was later gobbled up by Washington Mutual; and now Washington Mutual has been gobbled up by JPMorgan Chase! And yet, throughout all that, I've kept the same account number! At least one thing stays the same.

re: #193 spypeach

Thats not a sob story. You just sound like people who just wanted to progress and be decent. Circumstances broke against you.
You were not hustlers & some of the people that we are now being told that we are responsible for knew damn well that they could not service their debt.
I wish you well.

Has McCain said whether or not he watched FDR's speech on TV at the beginning of the depression?

I'm almost to the point where I'll agree to the $700 gladly as long as one of the slates we wipe clean is Congress. Make the entire crew stand for re-election this November.

re: #226 zombie

I started out long ago with an account in one bank; then that was eventually gobbled up by another bank; and then that bank was later gobbled up by Washington Mutual; and now Washington Mutual has been gobbled up by JPMorgan Chase! And yet, throughout all that, I've kept the same account number! At least one thing stays the same.

thats the good news ,,

the BAD news is all those laid off disgruntled ex-employees of all the smaller banks have that account number !

re: #213 NY Nana

. . . , I help with Type 1 @Donovan McNabb's camp - and I'm okay with tweaking Type 2's. Non-Invasive Cardio/Vascular stuff was my nitch until my grandson was dx with type 1 - yep, type 1 or 2 is rough!

Wtf ?

Sorry, combined two replies in one post. My bad.

Mandy {hugs}

Dodges clue bat,,

re: #226 zombie

I started out long ago with an account in one bank; then that was eventually gobbled up by another bank; and then that bank was later gobbled up by Washington Mutual; and now Washington Mutual has been gobbled up by JPMorgan Chase! And yet, throughout all that, I've kept the same account number! At least one thing stays the same.

Yup, you can still kill allot of birds with one well aimed rock.

re: #223 yochanan

my bank keeps changing me i have been at the same location through 5 banks.

Me too -- same branch location, same account number, even the same employees -- but the bank has now changed four times. The only people making a profit are the sign-installers!

There was this: Looking tired and annoyed, Mr. Dodd ...was apparently alluding to a growing revolt by conservative House Republicans against the proposed $700 billion rescue, and the fact that Senator McCain has not yet endorsed the plan, whose concept runs contrary to the policy positions he has taken for years.

My interpretation of that is McCain is objecting to the Democrats wanting to include the provision that any profits will go into a "trust fund earmark" to subsidize low income loans. That's an earmark entitlment which would be against every policy position he has taken. They tried to include that in the 2005-06 Republican bill to reform Fanny/Freddie and it was rejected them. The Democrats then killed that bill which would have prevented this from occurring.

He shouldn't agree. Any profits should go back to ALL the taxpayers. Not to subsidize more loans.

Here's a priceless quote:

Bill Clinton in an interview this morning he says he liked Bush’s “clear” statement last night, knows McCain isn’t postponing the debates because he’s afraid of Obama given that McCain wanted many debates this summer and then he pins the Fannie and Freddie mess squarely on Congressional Democrats for bucking what he and the Republicans wanted to do to monitor those companies.
From Newsbusters.

re: #178 goddessoftheclassroom

{MandyManners}

You have your priorities straight.

You're in my prayers. Take care.

Oh, thank you, gotc! (Still wearing that twin-set?)

re: #226 zombie

haha, same with me. i'm on my fourth bank (Chase) with the same acct number.

re: #172 Charles

When all else fails, t&a.... now, where's my beer?

re: #228 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Has McCain said whether or not he watched FDR's speech on TV at the beginning of the depression?

THAT WAS BIDEN NOT MCCAIN

re: #7 Sharmuta

AG sold me with this:

I have to agree- in the short term, this is expensive and hurts. But in the long term, I'd rather pay now than pay later, longer and harder.

By paying now we may well be paying later, longer and much, much harder.

re: #227 opnion
and
205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks, I'm know I'm not the only one feeling uneasy. Glad I can vent a little on this site.

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

That sounds like a good idea. I can't do much of anything right now, since the surgery. I'm going crazy just sitting around everyday. But doc says no real physical activity for a few weeks.

I'd love to take a swing.

Take a drive to see the aspens? Have someone drive you?

OT

Here's a wiki entry with respect to the Socialism imposed by Trudeau and the oil crisis of the 1980s...National Energy Program..

I guess I can tell everyone now because I don't know who I work for now. I work at Washington Mutual Bank. I can now say that I work for the largest bank to fail in the history of the US.

I think I may work for JP Morgan. But WaMu management hasn't told anyone anything.

re: #236 buzzsawmonkey

Seems that we've gone from being a "service economy" to being a debt service economy.

Seems there's always money to be made in debt collections and booze.

re: #240 yochanan

THAT WAS BIDEN NOT MCCAIN

No silly! I was thinking that would be a really funny joke for McCain to make.

re: #193 spypeach

I don't know what the answer is, but the question scares the hell out of me. I've been through this before with the dot.com bubble. My husband had a great job, so we bought a house well within our means, but less then a year later 9/11 happened then the dot.com burst. Husband gets laid off and can't find a job for 6 months. Well after 6 months we use up all of our money and have to sell our house. Any money we have from selling the house is used to rent a house for a year, because you see our credit was fubar because of not being able to pay our bills for several months. Anyway, we were eventually able to buy a house 1/2 the size of the original for twice as much. Not trying to put out a sob story, but I don't know how far this trickles down, if the shit hits the fan and my husband gets laid off again, we're screwed. So what's the answer, part of me wants to let the shit hit the fan, but the other part of me, the one with two young daughters and a one income house wants this whole situation stabilized. Sorry for the rant.

I hope it doesn't get that bad again.

We didn't get that bad off, despite 20 months out of a well-paying job. (I did part-time teaching, online and at a community college, which actually helped extend unemployment)
But we had had a 0 balance on credit cards when I got laid off; I'm still paying them off a few years later. Some of this was because we went for an inexpensive house further out from Boston, and kept the mortgage way down.

re: #236 buzzsawmonkey

Seems that we've gone from being a "service economy" to being a debt service economy.

Before that it was an information economy and before that we actually produced shit. Anyone you know study Supply Side Logistics or Manufacturing Infrastructure engineering anymore in this country lately?

If you don't create and produce then it's all just an illusion of security.

re: #194 Walter L. Newton

THe Republican committee did draft an alternative plan yesterday. I am sure it was presented today. It doesn't seem to be on the table. It did not include a 700 Billion bailout.

One of the provisions of it was a 2 year elimination of capital gains.

re: #242 spypeach

and
205 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks, I'm know I'm not the only one feeling uneasy. Glad I can vent a little on this site.

You can vent as much as you like.

Is it just me, or does Obama seem like he might be a bit on the lazy side?

Its a fucked up situation, but nobody forced me and my wife to take out (2) loans on our house. Nobody had a gun to our backs as we signed the loan papers.

Am happy that I have bought the max allowed in Savings Bonds each year.

re: #245 Dahveed

I'll keep you in my thoughts as you figure this out. Unless you're one of the "big shots" who effed this up? I'm guessing you're not.

re: #225 whiterasta

Pardon my ignorance, but does this affect the likes of Microsoft, Google and Exxon in any significant way?

The company or the stock?

/either way, the economy tanks and the answer is badly

Well, I don't have any money in the bank to speak of, and there are a lot of deer in the woods up here... a little dynamite in a couple of mountain passes, and we can hold off you flatlanders for a looong time ;-)

re: #251 opnion

You can vent as much as you like.

Speaking of which, I havent seen EIDE around.
Not that I'm looking forward to it ...

It isn't a matter of the Fed needing to sequestor executive pay. Any evidence of illegality should be pursued, even into Barney Frank's bedroom. What needs to be cut during this crisis is Federal cicilian pay. The GS schedule pay should be cut by 15%. The specialized schedules should be cut by 10-20%. Military pay should not be cut.

Here is the official MSM take on the meeting. White House bailout meeting went badly: Democrats.

re: #211 zombie

Heh. Here's the story:

The Wall Street Journal, citing people familiar with the matter, said the deal brokered by the government will not impact the FDIC insurance fund, which stood to take a multi-billion dollar hit if the WaMu failed.

The New York Times had a similar report. The Seattle-based thrift, the nation's largest, has roughly $310 billion in assets and was searching for a lifeline after a credit-rating downgrade further raised questions about its future.

This is turning into a life and death game of musical chairs - with the banks all hoping the music doesn't run out before they get suitors. Think of the government bailout as extending the time that the music plays.

re: #243 MandyManners

Take a drive to see the aspens? Have someone drive you?

Good idea. Oh, I can drive, and walk, just can't do no lifting. Part of my job at the theatre is cleaning up around the place, and building sets and other facility stuff like that. Can't do any of that for a few more weeks. Most I can do at work is run the lights/sound for the shows.

Maybe I will take a drive up the canyon this weekend, or the early next week. Hell, I live just 2 miles from 3 different canyons. I can be at 10 thousand feet in 30 minutes.

re: #257 hillbilly geek

Well, I don't have any money in the bank to speak of, and there are a lot of deer in the woods up here... a little dynamite in a couple of mountain passes, and we can hold off you flatlanders for a looong time ;-)

Ha Ha Ha!

re: #226 zombie

I started out long ago with an account in one bank; then that was eventually gobbled up by another bank; and then that bank was later gobbled up by Washington Mutual; and now Washington Mutual has been gobbled up by JPMorgan Chase! And yet, throughout all that, I've kept the same account number! At least one thing stays the same.

I stay with a credit union. The got caught in the real estate crash in the 1990s, but that was because of malfeasance by the president. He got caught, and the insurance bond paid. Since then, they've expanded; I don't think they offered the sleazy mortgages.
Meanwhile, they're great for a techno-geek; I can scan checks up to $200 and deposit them electronically, and I've had bill payer for well over 10 years.

OK, I've been doing a little diversifying (online banking makes things so easy!). I now have spread my assets around for stability:

25% in Weimar Republic Deutschmarks
25% in Zimbabwean dollars
25% in a mafia-owned casino in Cuba
25% in Graf Zeppelin Airship Company stocks.

Now I can relax.

re: #255 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I'll keep you in my thoughts as you figure this out. Unless you're one of the "big shots" who effed this up? I'm guessing you're not.

I was actually one of the accountants that reported the very accurate numbers to the government on a daily/weekly/quarterly basis.

re: #257 hillbilly geek

Don't forget you need Beer as well as Deer.

re: #250 Nancy

That proposal was proffered in the WH meeting but rejected by Paulson as being inadequate or insufficient to stem the mess.