Snuh.

Here’s the complete text (PDF) of the deal.

Stephen King never wrote anything scarier.

Myth vs Fact on bailout compromise

Myth: Windfall for ACORN.

Fact: The Frank-Dodd proposal created an affordable housing slush fund and directed 20 percent of net benefits from the program to be directed to ACORN-type organizations. The proposed compromise does not include any affordable housing slush fund and directs all net benefits back to the Treasury to pay down the national debt.

The complete details as they exist right now, now including the additions that will be slipped in, in closed door dealings just hours before the final vote...

Think I'll wait for the Cliff's Notes version that should be out sometime tomorrow.

re: #4 doriangrey

The complete details as they exist right now, now not including the additions that will be slipped in, in closed door dealings just hours before the final vote...

Thank you for providing the correct link, Charles.

Typo on page 87.

And I thought I would never have to read this stuff again.

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

re: #7 Sharmuta

Thank you for providing the correct link, Charles.

Sharm, these is not the link to the Congressional website and the authentic copy. This is at National Review. Might be the current correct one. Might not. At any rate, if they are voting at 8 there are still 8 hours and 54 minutes to fuck it up in after we've all relaxed.

I could'nt open it. Someone please tell me that the banks were forced to lower their intrest rates on credit cards, so people can have a chance of paying them off.

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

Maybe you have the Conference Committee version. Everything can change in the Conference Committee.

re: #10 rawmuse

You have to wave a match under it Raw...Invisible ink and all....

As usual, those that created this mess, corrupt business interests and the Democrats expect the US tax payer to pay the bill for their stupidity. At the very least, business should absorb some the loss, and to be fair, the Democrats should pony up about 350 billion to pay for there share of this. Just think, one or two good flicks out of Hollywood would bay for there share of the mess. No accountability or "heads will roll" this is BS and everyone of us know it.....

re: #5 guzziguy

Think I'll wait for the Cliff's Notes version that should be out sometime tomorrow.

I'd rather the Lizard Notes version that will come out tonight in this thread.

re: #1 Salem

Snuh.

Yah shure, yew betcha.
Obfuscation at its best.
Your government at work.
Or not.
Dang! I hate to be so cynical, but 'most anything from congress invites cynicism.
_{Is that spelled right?}

From the house link: O:AYOAYO08C04.xml

From the National Review link: O:AYOAYO08C04.xml

In other words- it's the same document.

Nature has a special on the Andes on, in HD. Hummingbirds right next to glaciers. Totally awesome.
Later, Lizards.

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

[Link: www.adobe.com...]

for Mac ... and options to change OS on the page.

re: #18 Sharmuta

From the house link: O:AYOAYO08C04.xml

From the National Review link: O:AYOAYO08C04.xml

In other words- it's the same document.

No, in other words it has the same file name. Either way I'm not going to worry my head over it. There is still 9 hours and 50 minutes of fuckup time remaining on the clock.

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

It's better for your sanity that way..........

re: #21 galloping granny

No, in other words it has the same file name. Either way I'm not going to worry my head over it. There is still 98 hours and 50 minutes of fuckup time remaining on the clock.

And since I am obviously too tired to add and subtract, I will head off to bed for a couple of hours. See ya'll in the AM.

If I'm reading this correctly, Wall Street firms will be paying for the bailout through insurance premiums? Also establishes the Financial Stability Oversight Board.

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

My Adobe Reader 5.x couldn't handle it, I just updated to Rev 9.x.

The acronym TARP (troubled asset relief program) is a bit ironic. The word "TARP" implies a waterproof protective covering as it protects the stuff underneath it from liquid. I think "Liner" as in it keeps liquid in would be more accurate. Liars In Negotiation Enabling Redistribution.

re: #24 Racer X

If I'm reading this correctly, Wall Street firms will be paying for the bailout through insurance premiums? Also establishes the Financial Stability Oversight Board.

That new agency name makes me nervous. I get scared just think of how Obama thinks of using an agency like that.

ugh, 110 pages. I know I should read it, but it feels like some sort of punishment

re: #25 itellu3times

Screw Adobe Reader; it's beyond awful. Use Foxit instead.

they're going to need a lot of lipstick to pass this thing.

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

You have to enter the password: OBAMAMESSIAH

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

That new agency name makes me nervous. I get scared just think of how Obama thinks of using an agency like that.

I understand Franklin Raines has submitted his resume for consideration.

Pages 88-89 talk about mark-to-market.

re: #11 galloping granny

Sharm, these is not the link to the Congressional website and the authentic copy. This is at National Review. Might be the current correct one. Might not. At any rate, if they are voting at 8 there are still 8 hours and 54 minutes to fuck it up in after we've all relaxed.

Amen! I don't trust any of them, of any party, anymore. Bleh.

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

17 days before Obama's bill would have mandated all troops out of Iraq?

re: #28 JeremiahRight

ugh, 110 pages. I know I should read it, but it feels like some sort of punishment

Unreal, this thing started only 3 pages thick. I should read it too, but I'm sure I'd just be scratching my head afterwards.

Page 39 talks about transparency, everything posted within 2 days. Good.

My quick scan doesn't show any slush fund for affordable acorns.

Updating Ronald Reagan...the scariest words in the English language are "Congress is on the job."

(Or Nancy Pelosi is..., Barney Frank is..., as you wish.)

re: #33 Racer X

I understand Franklin Raines has submitted his resume for consideration.

Is that the Obama adviser from Freddie Mac?

What does Thaddeus say? Is it dung?

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

The next day, march 15th, is the "Ides of March". Which was a festival day dedicated to Mars, the god of War.

Julius Caesar did not care much for that day. He thought it ended badly.

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

I don't know, but I searched that date and got Axelrod.

Michelle Malkin listened in on "a phone conference this evening with anti-bailout conservatives, congressional staffers, and other Hill insiders. With only one exception, the groups and individuals on the call all opposed the bailout in its current form. They also concurred that this deal is worse than the one Paulson proposed — on constitutional, policy, and fiscal grounds."

There are lots of details at her site - she is vehemently anti-bailout; I'm convinced some sort of "bailout" is needed, but I frankly don't know enough to understand what I'm reading.

Scrap it!

Scrap it...now!

re: #29 jonathan1984

Screw Adobe Reader; it's beyond awful. Use Foxit instead.

Looks great, thanks!

Adobe gives me the willies.

It still has the 20% of any profit for ACORN. That part of the deal needs to be taken out. Any profits should just go to the treasury.

re: #45 reine.de.tout

Normally Michelle's decent enough, but she's way off-base on this. I'm not sure she fundamentally understands how big a problem this is.

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

Is that the Obama adviser from Freddie Mac?

Yes, he pocketed 90 mil, then had to resign as CEO due to accounting irregularities.

/kidding about his resume

re: #24 Racer X

If I'm reading this correctly, Wall Street firms will be paying for the bailout through insurance premiums? Also establishes the Financial Stability Oversight Board.

What ever THAT is! Sounds like a whole new gov bureaucracy!

As I read it. At the end of 5 years the gov will either dump these homes/mortgages on the market or will continue to hold them as the "bank" for these mortgages, and effectively socialize a large piece of the American economy. Which is worse? And what are the implications.

re: #49 jonathan1984

Normally Michelle's decent enough, but she's way off-base on this. I'm not sure she fundamentally understands how big a problem this is.

I agree with you. Doing nothing is not an option. A bailout is an absolute necessity.

re: #28 JeremiahRight

ugh, 110 pages. I know I should read it, but it feels like some sort of punishment

READ IT! And make you feelings known to your Senators and Congressperson.

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

Three years since the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon? Saint Mathilda's Day? Give us a hint?

re: #48 BIG

No- it doesn't!

Myth: Windfall for ACORN.

Fact: The Frank-Dodd proposal created an affordable housing slush fund and directed 20 percent of net benefits from the program to be directed to ACORN-type organizations. The proposed compromise does not include any affordable housing slush fund and directs all net benefits back to the Treasury to pay down the national debt.

re: #45 reine.de.tout

They also concurred that this deal is worse than the one Paulson proposed — on constitutional, policy, and fiscal grounds."

I'm with Newt. Paulson should resign. He should have ALREADY resigned.

A deal.
Absolutely required deal.
A clear example of cooperative governance which is a good thing.

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

The Bear-Stearns bailout by JP Morgan?

re: #32 Mich-again

The last Business day for Bear Stearns perhaps.

re: #50 Racer X

Yes, he pocketed 90 mil, then had to resign as CEO due to accounting irregularities.

/kidding about his resume

If Obama is elected, you won't be kidding. Criminal actions are not a bar to appointments to members of the Chicago Machine.

Just posted on a dead thread, Michelle Malkin sums it up:

Ten Reasons to Oppose the Wall Street Bailout

1. NO REFORM: The plan attempts to mask, rather than reform, imbalances in credit markets and in U.S. economic public policy. The plan props up reckless and failed banks by buying “troubled assets” instead of focusing on real reforms that go after government sponsored culprits Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and sustainable policies that will increase the availability of private capital and expanded economic growth.

2. TREASURY POWER GRAB: The plan raises Constitutional concerns by dramatically expanding the power of the current and future Treasury Secretaries, giving the government agency power to directly purchase assets from for-profit financial and non-financial firms.

3. STUNNING PRICE TAG: The $700 billion bailout figure is as much money as the combined annual budgets of the Departments of Defense, Education and Health and Human Services. It amounts to $2,300 for every man, woman, and child in America.

4. INCREASES NATIONAL DEBT: Instead of cutting spending elsewhere, Congress will borrow all $700 billion on global capital markets, and the bill raises the national debt ceiling to a staggering $11.3 trillion.

5. GLOBAL BAILOUT: The plan includes taxpayer purchases of distressed assets from foreign banks.

6. HURTS RESPONSIBLE AMERICAN BANKS: The plan punishes responsible U.S. banks by keeping reckless, insolvent investment banks in business. As BB&T CEO John Allison wrote in a letter to Congress on Sept. 23rd, “….this is primarily a bailout of poorly run financial institutions…. Corrections are not all bad. The market correction process eliminates irrational competitors.”

7. FLAWED PROCESS: Members of Congress and the public will have less than 24 hours and no hearings to discuss and understand the impact of this sweeping plan. This rush to pass a wildly unpopular plan without benefit of significant public debate and input will also undermine its legitimacy and effectiveness.

8. BY WALL STREET, FOR WALL STREET: Treasury Secretary Paulson, the architect of the plan, was formerly the head of Goldman Sachs, one of the firms responsible for the mess and a direct beneficiary of the bailout. Further, the advisers managing the bailout auctions and assets will be Wall Street firms and will likely receive billions of tax dollars in fees.

9. OTHER OPTIONS NOT EXHAUSTED: The idea that taxpayers will make money on the bailout is not credible. There are ready buyers for these “troubled assets” — Merrill Lynch sold its entire portfolio of mortgage backed securities in July– provided the price is low enough. If a profit was possible, private speculators would readily buy these troubled assets.

10. MORALLY OFFENSIVE: The plan violates basic principles of American capitalism and honest governance by creating a system of “private profits, socialized losses” that transfers money from taxpayers directly to Wall Street investment banks. Free market capitalism only functions if individuals and firms are held accountable and are allowed to both succeed and profit, and also to sustain losses and even fail.

Hopefully most Republicans in Congress have the good sense to vote against it. I'm not counting on McCain. He should at least maintain plausible deniability.

If McCain is going to "claim credit" for this mess, he's toast. Obama will be president and this bailout will give him a head start in implementing socialism in the US.

We need more than one "hockey mom from Hicktown, USA" in D.C. to clean up the corrupt, self-serving bullshit that has gone on in DC for too many administrations, too many years.

Does this mean we don't have to make our mortgage payments anymore?

/

re: #62 SagamoreGal

We need more than one "hockey mom from Hicktown, USA" in D.C. to clean up the corrupt, self-serving bullshit that has gone on in DC for too many administrations, too many years.

Are you refering to Palin?

re: #26 Mich-again

The acronym TARP (troubled asset relief program) is a bit ironic. The word "TARP" implies a waterproof protective covering as it protects the stuff underneath it from liquid. I think "Liner" as in it keeps liquid in would be more accurate. Liars In Negotiation Enabling Redistribution.

Taxpayer Asses Recieve Poking?

re: #57 experiencedtraveller

A deal.
Absolutely required deal.
A clear example of cooperative governance which is a good thing.

First, do no harm! Has anyone in our legislature kept this axiom in mind?

re: #63 newsjunkie_ky

Does this mean we don't have to make our mortgage payments anymore?

/

If it does I'm buying a new house tomorrow.

///

re: #45 reine.de.tout

Michelle Malkin listened in on "a phone conference this evening with anti-bailout conservatives, congressional staffers, and other Hill insiders. With only one exception, the groups and individuals on the call all opposed the bailout in its current form. They also concurred that this deal is worse than the one Paulson proposed — on constitutional, policy, and fiscal grounds."

There are lots of details at her site - she is vehemently anti-bailout; I'm convinced some sort of "bailout" is needed, but I frankly don't know enough to understand what I'm reading.

Me too.

She raises many points. How good they all are, is hard to say.

But the question is still, are we on the edge of a precipice, or not?

This is incredible.

re: #53 Russkilitlover

READ IT! And make you feelings known to your Senators and Congressperson.

you know, I probably shouldn't have posted that. It's actually not bad to read, the font size is large, double spaced and each sentence is only about half the width of the page. It goes pretty quick. I agree we all should read it

What if housing prices keep dropping? How are they going to re-coup the money they shelled out for these mortgages? Do they keep them indefinitely till the house price reaches back up to the original level? What if that takes 15 years?

I totally don't understand the ins and outs of this-

re: #67 x-wing

If it does I'm buying a new house tomorrow.

///

Me too........

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

Hey, how did the text of Alan Sokal's "Transgressing the Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity" get inserted into this?

Interesting article about this crisis.

The Cloward-Piven Strategy. It describes their agenda, tactics, and long-term strategy.

The Strategy was first elucidated in the May 2, 1966 issue of The Nation magazine by a pair of radical socialist Columbia University professors, Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven. David Horowitz summarizes it as:

The strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis. The "Cloward-Piven Strategy" seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.

Cloward and Piven were inspired by radical organizer [and Hillary Clinton mentor] Saul Alinsky:

"

Make the enemy live up to their (sic) own book of rules," Alinsky wrote in his 1989 book Rules for Radicals. When pressed to honor every word of every law and statute, every Judeo-Christian moral tenet, and every implicit promise of the liberal social contract, human agencies inevitably fall short. The system's failure to "live up" to its rule book can then be used to discredit it altogether, and to replace the capitalist "rule book" with a socialist one. (Courtesy Discover the Networks.org)

Hat-tip: Born Again Republican.

23 (b) MEMBERSHIP.—The Financial Stability Over24
sight Board shall be comprised of—
(3) the Director of the Federal Home Finance Agency;

That line means that Freddie Raines is now officially part of the solution. Blech.

re: #70 Claire

I totally don't understand the ins and outs of this-

You are not suppose to, that's the whole point.

re: #49 jonathan1984

Normally Michelle's decent enough, but she's way off-base on this. I'm not sure she fundamentally understands how big a problem this is.

She understands it. No bail out is the best bet. The whole mess is internal, and if they had not been padding their pockets would not be nearly as bad.

re: #73 lifeofthemind

Heh.

wonder if The One will try to vote 'present' on the bill? Or will he be too busy to vote?

Good night, good people.

Other stuff paulson can buy with your money

A useful and snarky link that tells the govt just what we think of their malpractice amd malfeasance

re: #61 Peter Verkooijen

The stunning speed that this think is being rammed through indicates, to me, that responsible heads will NOT roll and will, in fact be covered up in politic-speak. There are a lot of ASSES being covered and protected right now and the implications of such shortsightedness WILL be felt....but when?

Flush this floater.

Section 110
(2) MODIFICATIONS.—In the case of a residential mortgage loan, modifications made under paragraph (1) may include—
(A) reduction in interest rates;
(B) reduction of loan principal; and
(C) other similar modifications.

Congratulations, deadbeats, the taxpayers are going to buy your house for you to live in.

re: #72 Coldpizza

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

You should buy your morning coffee. Sit at your desk, and put on your seatbealt.

Whatever happens, where ever you are, it will be a wild ride.

Bend over taxpayers

re: #74 MandyManners

Okay, now I really have a headache! And me here with no wine, vodka, or any other spirits!

re: #57 experiencedtraveller

A deal.
Absolutely required deal.
A clear example of cooperative governance which is a good thing.

*cooperative governance*

How would Thaddeus translate that for me?

cooperative governance = we had a bipartisan meeting but forgot to invite the republicans

re: #72 Coldpizza

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

Let me see the opening first. Futures currently modestly down.

But for now, all moves are high-risk.

re: #70 Claire

What if housing prices keep dropping? How are they going to re-coup the money they shelled out for these mortgages? Do they keep them indefinitely till the house price reaches back up to the original level? What if that takes 15 years?

I totally don't understand the ins and outs of this-

I not sure either, but I think they buy the mortgages from the Banks at a discount, say 40 or 50 cents on the dollar. And then they resell. My head was spinning trying to understand it.

I'm not sure the bailout will work. The media has trash talked the economy for so long that unless they hail this Bill as the Ten Commandments we are still in for a mess.

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

I agree with you. Doing nothing is not an option. A bailout is an absolute necessity.

If this bill is so darn important then why is it that...?

1. It has it taken so long to get it to the floor when the Dems like it and they have control?

2. The Dems feel they could load it with crap. (Acorn, unions on a board...)?

3. It will take TWO MORE DAYS to get through the Senate?

4. Issues such as CRA, CDS's, Naked shorts and incompitent Fed, Treasury, and SEC actions are not even basicly address.

This all leads me to believe it is a total sham.

re: #61 Peter Verkooijen

You and MM may oppose the deal but I will list a few Americans who will benefit from the deal.

1. Anyone with anything in the stock market.
2. Anyone with or hoping to have a 401k.
3. Anyone with or hoping to have a 529.

The American economy is fundamentally sound. It has a problem that this cooperative agreement is trying to address.

I wish it good luck.

I see that Barry Hussein is trying to take complete credit for the so-called "safeguards" contained in the bailout. He just never stops.

re: #74 MandyManners

I read that. It makes this whole thing look like a very well prepared trap, and here we are putting our feet right in to it.

I am not terribly optimistic about this. Maybe we have to do it but if so, we will pay in ways we have never imagined.
Maybe our days as free citizens are over. We are now subjects. It is possible.

re: #94 Cartman

I see that Barry Hussein is trying to take complete credit for the so-called "safeguards" contained in the bailout. He just never stops lying

There ya go

re: #84 jaunte

ANY mention of individual mortgages is inappropriate, a sop to demorats.

Didja see Robert Reichhhhhhhhh on ABC this morning? He wanted to include unemployment insurance in the bill. Maroon.

For the economic policy debate, can we count on Barry coming out clean and saying something along the lines of-
"My own house was above my pay grade. In fact, I too was bailed out when buying a house that I couldn't afford to close on. By a convicted felon, no less. In fact, look, I wear a bracelet with Tony Rezko's name on it. And speaking of bracelets, I have many more- when I gave my great speech on race, very few people knew that I wore a J-Wright/Louis Farrakhan bracelet. And the reason they love me outside America is that I wear another bracelet which honors Bill Ayers."

re: #3 Sharmuta

Myth vs Fact on bailout compromise

Can we get an "ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY GONNA BE!" guarantee on this?

This is FALSE.

ACORN is out only by name. Page 25, Sec. 109 states:
…”the Secretary may use loan guarantees and credit enhancements to facilitate loan modifications to prevent avoidable foreclosures……..to take advantage of the HOPE for Homeowners Program ……of the National Housing Act or other available programs to minimize foreclosures.”

WHAT A CROCK! IT IS ALL CODE FOR ACORN. READ IT! MICHELLE IS RIGHT!

Starlink on September 28, 2008 at 10:33 PM

We need to examine this further and reach a determination about whether ACORN is truly out of the bill. This is really a disgrace.

re: #65 JeremyR

Taxpayer Asses Recieve Poking?

Taxpayer Asses Reamed Permanently.

I wonder who thought up the term "TARP"? Bet they get brownie points for that.

I"m reading it, so far seems reasonable, but I'm only a little way in.

Does anyone know the Stock symbol for Smith&Wesson?

My favorite line in all Congressional bills....

and for other purposes.

Thank you for the specificity.

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

...Criminal actions are not a bar to appointments to members of the Chicago Machine.

Actually I think it is a pre-requisite for higher office in Chi-Town

re: #79 newsjunkie_ky

The jackass sai he would only go back to D.C if his vote is needed. This guy wont take a stand on anything, and he's leading in the polls.

/I'm about to throw-up.

I don't need to read it all to know this much.

1) If the banks make money, its theirs to keep.

2) If the banks lose money, the US taxpayer foots the bill.

Gambling with house chips. That is the main purpose of the Federal Reserve System. The Fed is a private bank. Its not Federal and there is no Reserve. A perfect name.

I'm currently taking a course on legislative drafting, which means I'll soon be able to write bills like these..... >_>

re: #85 Syrah

You should buy your morning coffee. Sit at your desk, and put on your seatbealt.

Whatever happens, where ever you are, it will be a wild ride.

Buy ammo, canned goods, dried beans, and botled watter.

re: #95 rawmuse

I read that. It makes this whole thing look like a very well prepared trap, and here we are putting our feet right in to it.

I am not terribly optimistic about this. Maybe we have to do it but if so, we will pay in ways we have never imagined.
Maybe our days as free citizens are over. We are now subjects. It is possible.

I am worried about the speed of the implementation and the future (not so distant) ramifications.

re: #93 experiencedtraveller

I have money in the stock market. I have a 401K. I'm a Conservative and would prefer to LOSE money than to give absolute power to Secy Paulson and the Dems through this bill. Country and principle should come first; otherwise you can kiss free markets goodbye. The market goes up, the market goes down. That's the way of the market.

disclaimer: I have not read the revised bill, so I don't know if it STILL gives Paulson absolute power.

re: #12 Maximu§

That was passed by law at least six years ago.

A minimum payment - assuming one is not an idjit and spends yet more - will pay the credit card off in two years.

re: #71 doriangrey

Me too........

Well, you can buy the house that I owned, and was foreclosed on. Here's how the folks in DC play games with our lives.

I worked for 15 years at the National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden, Co. Five years ago, this administration cut our budget, said renewable energy research was a waste of taxpayers money. We are the ONLY government lab in the country dedicated to this sort of research.

So, I was laid off, now in my 50's, and could not find a full time job as a computer programmer, which is what I had been doing for over 30 years.

So, things fall apart, and I loose the house.

Two years ago, when a lot of this energy cost problems started to get out of control, DC starts throwing TONS of money at the lab. Politicians on both sides of the aisles are visiting the lab, photo ops, speeches and patting each other on the back.

And now the lab is hiring again. But they have a "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees.

So, the energy crisis, real or imagined, whatever you feel about it, whatever is really the truth, it doesn't matter, but a whole lot of peoples lives changed because DC used us like some sort of beach ball, cutting our budget when they needed to look good, and pissing money on us when they needed to look good.

No fucking thought about the people who everyday, relied on NREL to support thier families.

Bailout my ass.

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

That new agency name makes me nervous. I get scared just think of how Obama thinks of using an agency like that.

I've been nervous ever since someone thought "Homeland Security" was a good name for a department.

Well all y'all good evening. I haven't read this nor do I intend to. As if and when Congress passes a bill, then I'll read it before Bush signs it or doen't sign it.
I have heard some respected economists say that the sum of $700 billion is enough for the short term to avoid a depression but not a recession; the bill allows the US Government to acquire stock in whatever institutions the fend "lends" money to - it'll actually be a sort of share buying by the Government and the government will be buying up foreclosed or going into foreclosure loans to hold onto those mortgages until the real estate value is back.
There is some cap on CEO and Executives Pay on institutions the Fed loans money to (i.e., acquires an ownership interest in) as well as to institutions where the Fed simply acquires the crappy mortgages.
As for Michelle Malkin and the die-hard "Free Economy" advocates, all I can say is: we haven't had "free enterprise" in this country since the 1920's and by restoring liquidity to lending institutions, we have made it possible for businesses to use their lines of credit to meet payroll and the like so it should soften SOME the number of layoffs that are going to be coming anyway.
And btw, the real estate economy, save for some bumps in the road, has been on pretty much of an upswing for the past 35 years or so - I think the Taxpayers will ultimately make money off this deal.

re: #100 Globular Cluster

We need to examine this further and reach a determination about whether ACORN is truly out of the bill. This is really a disgrace.

HOPE== HELP and other similar programs created by the Dems to feed ACORN right?

re: #61 Peter Verkooijen

What Michelle says makes sense, EXCEPT she's left out the part about credit drying up for businesses. How have we, as business owners "failed" in a way to not access further credit? What financial market risk did we take where we have to take our lumps? Answer: NONE. But we are paying a huge price for this fuck-up because we can't get loans anymore, and not because we are the ones who defaulted, the banks have run out of money to loan.

re: #100 Globular Cluster

We need to examine this further and reach a determination about whether ACORN is truly out of the bill. This is really a disgrace.

The Dems want to continue to financially fuel programs like this that were essentially responsible for this meltdown in the first place. They need to be hauled out one by one and publicly flogged for attempting to perpetuate this disaster.

re: #107 Mich-again

I don't need to read it all to know this much.

1) If the banks make money, its theirs to keep.

2) If the banks lose money, the US taxpayer foots the bill.

Gambling with house chips. That is the main purpose of the Federal Reserve System. The Fed is a private bank. Its not Federal and there is no Reserve. A perfect name.

While that's not quite true, it's how it works out.

And it's pithy and makes me laugh, so I like it anyway.

re: #45 reine.de.tout

Michelle Malkin listened in on "a phone conference this evening with anti-bailout conservatives, congressional staffers, and other Hill insiders. With only one exception, the groups and individuals on the call all opposed the bailout in its current form. They also concurred that this deal is worse than the one Paulson proposed — on constitutional, policy, and fiscal grounds."

There are lots of details at her site - she is vehemently anti-bailout; I'm convinced some sort of "bailout" is needed, but I frankly don't know enough to understand what I'm reading.

I don't claim to understand it all either, but I do get the sense that for some this is akin to a debate about global warming, or creationism. Some people see their very reason for existing as being based on certain things they call principles. No amount of logic will change that, because it means they were wrong if they concede, and the details be damned.

re: #110 Russkilitlover

I am worried about the speed of the implementation and the future (not so distant) ramifications.

We, the middle class, will get soaked but I doubt if we will be needing the bottled water and ammo. We did not need that with the last big stock market drop and I don't think that people will be murdering each other with a 8000 DJIA

Obama voted presents, not present. When numbers like 700 billion are being thrown around, the Obamamessiah says "wise men, bring me presents".

re: #67 x-wing

Does this mean we don't have to make our mortgage payments anymore?

/

If it does I'm buying a new house tomorrow.

///

Sorry, too late. Had to have bought it on or before March 14, 2008. Mebbe this is the door left open for the "future" defaulters... which should come online after having their house for less than 7 months.. sheesh

re: #68 itellu3times

Me too.

She raises many points. How good they all are, is hard to say.

But the question is still, are we on the edge of a precipice, or not?

This is incredible.

The Dems since at least the early 1990s pushed Fannie/Freddie to lower their standards for mortgages so they would come into reach of people who couldn't afford them. These bad loans fed a housing bubble that burst earlier this year, eventually leading to a collapse of the lenders themselves.

The bailout shields Fannie/Freddie and other lenders, and the people who never could afford their mortgages in the first place, from consequences to their actions. It doesn't restore standards and sanity to the market, it perpetuates the situation.

Right after The Zero's elected, I'm going to buy myself a nice car, a huge boat, a big-ass TV and a massive motor home on credit against the equity in my house, quit my job and wait for the government to bail me out

re: #49 jonathan1984

Normally Michelle's decent enough, but she's way off-base on this. I'm not sure she fundamentally understands how big a problem this is.

I agree with you. This is so huge, most people have no clue just how bad it is.

Anyone know what the Asian markets are doing now? Should be showing some influence from the "fabulous" bill Congress is set to pass.

re: #109 Drill_Thrawl

Buy ammo, canned goods, dried beans, and botled watter.

Not beans! No more beans!

That is a joke.

But really, buy a reverse osmosis filtration system and a bicycle pump. It's a much better bet than bottled water, and you can actually pack it up and move it more easily.

re: #115 realwest

And btw, the real estate economy, save for some bumps in the road, has been on pretty much of an upswing for the past 35 years or so - I think the Taxpayers will ultimately make money off this deal.

When Realwest speaks, people listen!

Thanks for your insight RW.

re: #74 MandyManners

Interesting article about this crisis.

The Cloward-Piven Strategy. It describes their agenda, tactics, and long-term strategy.

The Strategy was first elucidated in the May 2, 1966 issue of The Nation magazine by a pair of radical socialist Columbia University professors, Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven.

Columbia? Obama? Is this part of why he hasn't released his transcripts? His reality, the little we know of it, is more and more like a bad movie.

re: #124 Peter Verkooijen

Rewarded behavior is repeated behavior.

Must read:

[Link: michellemalkin.com...]

This isn't good.

re: #72 Coldpizza

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

Gold

Section 106 (d)-

Revenues of, and proceeds from the sale of troubled assets purchased under this Act, or from the sale, exercise, or surrender of war rants or senior debt instruments acquired under section 113 shall be paid into the general fund of the Treasury for reduction of the public debt.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like we can get some of our money back.

Well good night Lizards... Must go to work tomorrow........Somebody has to pay for this fucking pyramid scam....

Hell's bellsre: #24 Racer X

If I'm reading this correctly, Wall Street firms will be paying for the bailout through insurance premiums? Also establishes the Financial Stability Oversight Board.

Hell's bells! Just what we need -- another money-gobbling Federal Bureaucracy. But great acronym FSOB. But I think I will petition to have it renamed the Syndicated Highrollers Investment Trust.

from my reading the secretary determines what a troubled asset is, a little too much power in one place if you ask me

Nighty night lizards. Must teach the kids about law and justice in the morning, so they know what they are before they vanish...

re: #119 Dianna

Well thank you then. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer or MBA. To me, when a Prof makes it sound really complicated, its a tell they don't really understand the material. And to say that Bill is complicated is an understatement.

re: #117 Claire

What Michelle says makes sense, EXCEPT she's left out the part about credit drying up for businesses. How have we, as business owners "failed" in a way to not access further credit? What financial market risk did we take where we have to take our lumps? Answer: NONE. But we are paying a huge price for this fuck-up because we can't get loans anymore, and not because we are the ones who defaulted, the banks have run out of money to loan.

Credit comes from institutions with money on hand, like savings and loans, and Insurance co. If they start having to hold more reserve, cash flows out, capital and credit becomes much harder to get. Projects stop, more people get laid off, leading to even less liquidity as everyone reigns in purchases and companies cut expenses to cover that. It can be a real downward spiral. I really do think this "flooring" is needed, as awful as it may seem.

re: #120 Naso Tang

I don't claim to understand it all either, but I do get the sense that for some this is akin to a debate about global warming, or creationism. Some people see their very reason for existing as being based on certain things they call principles. No amount of logic will change that, because it means they were wrong if they concede, and the details be damned.

Naso - I truly don't know enough to understand most of what I read about this, but what I do understand is this . . . this is really, frighteningly big, with implications that are world-wide.

I'm not sure a "bailout" will work; but something needs to be done, I'm convinced of it, and that's about the extent of my ability to talk about it.

Sigh ... I don't know what to think anymore.

I think we do have to keep in mind ... we remain a democracy. An active citizenry CAN get bad legislation reversed. It's hard, but it can be done. This bill is not a Constitutional amendment. It is not set in stone. If it at the very least buys us some time, that's good. Keep voting reform Republican and stay on your elected officials asses and if changes to provisions of this bill need to be made down the road they can be.

re: #124 Peter Verkooijen

I still do not believe that it was the political pressure to write bad loans that caused the trouble, I think it was greedhead financial types 95%. This was a a bubble, and was not rational.

The Credit Default Swaps are a huge problem, brought down AIG, and they had no law requiring them to be so stupid.

Get some of our money back? Yeah, right.

re: #130 lifeofthemind

Columbia? Obama? Is this part of why he hasn't released his transcripts? His reality, the little we know of it, is more and more like a bad movie.

If Sarah Palin is a Disney Movie, Obama is a Bond Villain

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

Well, you can buy the house that I owned, and was foreclosed on. Here's how the folks in DC play games with our lives.

I worked for 15 years at the National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden, Co. Five years ago, this administration cut our budget, said renewable energy research was a waste of taxpayers money. We are the ONLY government lab in the country dedicated to this sort of research.

So, I was laid off, now in my 50's, and could not find a full time job as a computer programmer, which is what I had been doing for over 30 years.

So, things fall apart, and I loose the house.

Two years ago, when a lot of this energy cost problems started to get out of control, DC starts throwing TONS of money at the lab. Politicians on both sides of the aisles are visiting the lab, photo ops, speeches and patting each other on the back.

And now the lab is hiring again. But they have a "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees.

So, the energy crisis, real or imagined, whatever you feel about it, whatever is really the truth, it doesn't matter, but a whole lot of peoples lives changed because DC used us like some sort of beach ball, cutting our budget when they needed to look good, and pissing money on us when they needed to look good.

No fucking thought about the people who everyday, relied on NREL to support thier families.

Bailout my ass.

Sounds like you might have an EEO age discrimination case. Talk to a lawyer.

re: #77 JeremyR
I'm sorry but I disagree with you (and apparently Michelle Malkin) no bailout would have meant, litererally a bank and credit meltdown. Banks haven't even been loaning to other banks for several days now, no one would have bought those stupid crappy mortgages at almost ANY price cause no one can borrow the money necessary to do that.
And as I said above, all businesses, especially "smaller" businesses use lines of credit from banks to meet their payrolls in case customers and suppliers don't pay "on time" and the businesses would then not be able to pay their employees without those credit lines.
We could argue this FOREVER and it wouldn't change that fact at all.
No liquidity in the capital markets means a true meltdown of the economy. Is this the best bill we could have gotten - without even reading it I can tell you with great confidence NO.
Is it the ONLY bill we probably could have gotten in time to head off the meltdown? Probably yes - both McCain and Obama voted for it.

re: #115 realwest

And btw, the real estate economy, save for some bumps in the road, has been on pretty much of an upswing for the past 35 years or so - I think the Taxpayers will ultimately make money off this deal.

Realwest - you've probably checked out by now, but appropos your statement, I think a lot depends on whether or not the Gov decides to turn these assets back to the private sector within five years. How confident do you feel that our government will "give back" a cash cow to the public sector. Hell! They're probably busy figuring out how to spend their mortgage windfall as we speak!

Your text to link...

They think it's worse than CRAP over there...

re: #127 Russkilitlover

Asian Markets Wobble Ahead of US Bailout Plan Vote
[Link: www.cnbc.com...]

re: #148 Russkilitlover

Realwest - you've probably checked out by now, but appropos your statement, I think a lot depends on whether or not the Gov decides to turn these assets back to the private sector within five years. How confident do you feel that our government will "give back" a cash cow to the public PRIVATE sector. Hell! They're probably busy figuring out how to spend their mortgage windfall as we speak!

Damn! PRIVATE!

re: #115 realwest

Good evening realwest; I agree with you on everything except that last point. If money is to be made eventually, there is now an awful lot of government between it and the taxpayers that are going to fund the bailout.

re: #137 rock86

from my reading the secretary determines what a troubled asset is, a little too much power in one place if you ask me

There's a provision for an Inspector General.

re: #106 x-wing

The jackass sai he would only go back to D.C if his vote is needed. This guy wont take a stand on anything, and he's leading in the polls.

/I'm about to throw-up.

That's what gets me. The One never actually takes a clear cut stand.
There are no do overs as POTUS or passing the buck.
Lord, help us.

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

Yikes! So what did you end up doing? I thought programmers were supposed to be in demand...

re: #147 realwest

I put more trust in your analysis of all of this than from any of the talking head experts who will be on TV promoting this or demonizing it. Thank you for chiming in on the subject. I will sleep a little better thanks to your posts here tonight.

There are caps to this, President has to ask congress for each add'l 100 B spent after the first 250.

Can't someone at least, figuratively, punch Barney Frank in the face? I hope, if/when this thing is signed, McCain goes after the Dems; explains that because his party is the minority, he had to compromise, but really goes after Frank and Dodd, et al!

I skimmed the whole thing looking for the one thing that absolutely, positively has to be part of any bailout deal: repealing the requirement that banks consider factors other than basic creditworthiness when considering mortgage applications.

That Clinton-era requirement started the whole sub-prime mortgage business, and so is the root cause of the entire mess.

We're supposed to pay $700 billion for a bailout (the initial amount is down to $250 billion, but the provisions of the deal allow the amount to go as high as $700 billion), without actually fixing the source of the whole problem--the subprime meltdown, the housing bubble, the whole thing?

And me--who didn't buy a house because he couldn't afford one without a ridiculous sub-prime mortgage--or my friends--who bought early on, using standard mortgages, and didn't cash out their equity with seconds when prices started climing--get to foot the bill for decades to come?

I don't #@$!#!%! think so.

Without fixing that, I say no deal on a bailout. Let the whole damned thing collapse, if that's what it takes.

re: #93 experiencedtraveller

You and MM may oppose the deal but I will list a few Americans who will benefit from the deal.

1. Anyone with anything in the stock market.
2. Anyone with or hoping to have a 401k.
3. Anyone with or hoping to have a 529.

...

Right, the f***in babyboomers who feel they are entitled to an easy retirement, the spoiled generation that has always had everything handed to them on a plate, the generation that has been leeching of their parents and will stick the bill to their children and grandchildren.

If you worked hard and built real wealth on anything other than paper you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Have you?

FYI, I'm 36, renting in NY, I have no assets, trying to bootstrap a company the old-fashioned way.

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

Well, you can buy the house that I owned, and was foreclosed on. Here's how the folks in DC play games with our lives.

I worked for 15 years at the National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden, Co. Five years ago, this administration cut our budget, said renewable energy research was a waste of taxpayers money. We are the ONLY government lab in the country dedicated to this sort of research.

So, I was laid off, now in my 50's, and could not find a full time job as a computer programmer, which is what I had been doing for over 30 years.

So, things fall apart, and I loose the house.

Two years ago, when a lot of this energy cost problems started to get out of control, DC starts throwing TONS of money at the lab. Politicians on both sides of the aisles are visiting the lab, photo ops, speeches and patting each other on the back.

And now the lab is hiring again. But they have a "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees.

So, the energy crisis, real or imagined, whatever you feel about it, whatever is really the truth, it doesn't matter, but a whole lot of peoples lives changed because DC used us like some sort of beach ball, cutting our budget when they needed to look good, and pissing money on us when they needed to look good.

No fucking thought about the people who everyday, relied on NREL to support thier families.

Bailout my ass.

Someone upthread mentioned EEO, and that's a good route to check out; but I don't understand this "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would they not want those very people who already have experience and are familiar with their operations? That makes no sense. Suggest if you have time and energy you check that out further.

re: #136 FloridaAnole

Hell's bells

Hell's bells! Just what we need -- another money-gobbling Federal Bureaucracy. But great acronym FSOB. But I think I will petition to have it renamed the Syndicated Highrollers Investment Trust.

Was working on one, but decided to ding you up instead!

re: #147 realwest

I'm sorry but I disagree with you (and apparently Michelle Malkin) no bailout would have meant, litererally a bank and credit meltdown. Banks haven't even been loaning to other banks for several days now, no one would have bought those stupid crappy mortgages at almost ANY price cause no one can borrow the money necessary to do that.
And as I said above, all businesses, especially "smaller" businesses use lines of credit from banks to meet their payrolls in case customers and suppliers don't pay "on time" and the businesses would then not be able to pay their employees without those credit lines.
We could argue this FOREVER and it wouldn't change that fact at all.
No liquidity in the capital markets means a true meltdown of the economy. Is this the best bill we could have gotten - without even reading it I can tell you with great confidence NO.
Is it the ONLY bill we probably could have gotten in time to head off the meltdown? Probably yes - both McCain and Obama voted for it.

Exactly- and the majority of Americans work for small businesses. If my bosses can't cover my paycheck- I'm screwed. I'm working for nothing but a worthless piece of paper.

re: #149 ParisParamus

Your text to link...

They think it's worse than CRAP over there...

Well I hope the shit sandwich works anyway. I just don't want amnesty for those who created this disaster whether their names be, Dodd, Obama or Bush.

re: #134 Sharmuta

Section 106 (d)-

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like we can get some of our money back.

It means a reduction in the public debt, which (ought to mean) an eventual reduction in your taxes. What it really means is a slush fund for social spending, unless we find a way to insist that the money actually come back.

I don't happen to like the national debt; I also happen to think that most of what's called "entitlements" are no such thing, but charity, and that they should be gradually phased out. If the profit from this bailout were to be used towards reducing the debt for entitlements, and gently phasing them out, I'd be a very happy taxpayer.

Of course, that would assume we could ever trust a politician with money.

Which, of course, we can't.

RW's right. What kills economies is lack of confidence, and a short stint of no liquidity can lead to that. This will stop that.

re: #92 Drill_Thrawl

If this bill is so darn important then why is it that...?

1. It has it taken so long to get it to the floor when the Dems like it and they have control?

2. The Dems feel they could load it with crap. (Acorn, unions on a board...)?

3. It will take TWO MORE DAYS to get through the Senate?

4. Issues such as CRA, CDS's, Naked shorts and incompitent Fed, Treasury, and SEC actions are not even basicly address.

This all leads me to believe it is a total sham.

The catch is that the Dems know it's a poison pill. If they pass it without Republican shills to share the blame, their political careers are toast. They literally don't have the cojones to pass it on their own.

After wading through that document, all I can say is that if I was a CPA, I'd be submitting a resume to the Treasury Department. If this sucker passes, they're going to need a lot of warm bodies to help administer the mess.

re: #146 lifeofthemind

Sounds like you might have an EEO age discrimination case. Talk to a lawyer.

I looked into that. Do you know who makes money from age discrimination cases? The lawyers. They rarely win, and you're still in hock for their fees.

re: #108 Ron Bacardi

I'm currently taking a course on legislative drafting, which means I'll soon be able to write bills like these..... >_>

lol but will you be able to understand it when you get done? And if the answer is yes, you have to retake the course.

re: #167 Thanos

RW's right. What kills economies is lack of confidence, and a short stint of no liquidity can lead to that. This will stop that.

OK. Now that's an explanation I can understand.

what is meaning of this part?

Secretary to encourage the servicers of the
12 underlying mortgages, considering net present value to the
13 taxpayer, to take advantage of the +HOPE for Home14
owners Program under section 257 of the National Hous15
ing Act or other available programs to minimize fore16
closures.+[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

pg 25

anyone know anything about Hope?

re: #166 Dianna

Well- this is the time for te American people to start really holding these politicians' feet to the fire. We should always do such, but perhaps this will be a wake-up call.

The bill does include increasing the national debt, so this money will be borrowed, not printed.

I am against that, if it can be avoided.

If it can't be avoided, ... hmm, ...

re: #143 itellu3times

... The Credit Default Swaps are a huge problem, brought down AIG, and they had no law requiring them to be so stupid.

All these "innovations" were just following the market. Banks had to follow to stay competitive. It was the political pressure on/from Fannie/Freddie that put the whole thing out of wack.

re: #163 Mel Lono

Thank you!

re: #123 ZinsWolf

Sorry, too late. Had to have bought it on or before March 14, 2008. Mebbe this is the door left open for the "future" defaulters... which should come online after having their house for less than 7 months.. sheesh

These Mortgages have been blowing up for the last 2 years, and they were still graniting them in March of this year. Grrrrrrrrreat.

re: #161 realwest

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

The Bill has been posted online since about 3:00 PST. Posted by Congress. I don't have the link, but I have printed the entire 116 page Bill and have been reading it for the last several hours.

re: #112 Dianna

That was passed by law at least six years ago.

A minimum payment - assuming one is not an idjit and spends yet more - will pay the credit card off in two years.

Ok, Ok now I know....not sure why people marked me down for wanting lower intrest rates on credit cards.

re: #154 newsjunkie_ky

That's what gets me. The One never actually takes a clear cut stand.

Why should he?

/as of today, he's opened up a commanding lead, well outside the margin of error

re: #159 Ceemack

I suspect we will have follow-ons to this, remember it's emergency legislation. On the bright side, if they do this you might be able to buy a home cheap. If they don't do this, nobody will be able to get credit. That's the point at which foreigners start buying our institutions for pennies on the dollar. We really don't need that.

re: #127 Russkilitlover

Anyone know what the Asian markets are doing now? Should be showing some influence from the "fabulous" bill Congress is set to pass.

Here's one look.

re: #161 realwest

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

I just don't see how the donks just don't go and spend it all if it does "make" money, RW. We will foot the bill, not share the wealth. When Obama is Pres with Reid and Pelosi in charge he will find plenty of people to give it to. Might even get the UN involved.

A very big thank you is in order to the geniuses who "sat out" the last election to "teach" the GOP a lesson
/

re: #167 Thanos

RW's right. What kills economies is lack of confidence, and a short stint of no liquidity can lead to that. This will stop that.

Except that our "confidence" needs to now be with government, not the private sector or markets. That makes me much less confident.

re: #120 Naso Tang

I don't claim to understand it all either, but I do get the sense that for some this is akin to a debate about global warming, or creationism. Some people see their very reason for existing as being based on certain things they call principles. No amount of logic will change that, because it means they were wrong if they concede, and the details be damned.

Republican Platform (standing on our conservative principles): "We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself. We believe in the free market as the best tool to sustained prosperity and opportunity for all.”

re: #172 willowone

The fox link is not the correct version.

re: #152 jaunte
Yes my friend there is; but the US Treasury has done this in the past and iirc, averaged a 16% profit on the money loaned to Chrysler and others.
And as far as I could tell there is no time limit on how long the Feds can hold any assets - especially mortgages, so if they hold 'em long enough, I'm confident the government will make profits on all or almost all of 'em.
Whether or not the taxpayer sees any of it I sincerly doubt, except to the extent the Government uses any profit instead of raising taxes.

Good night ladies.

re: #72 Coldpizza

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

Tomorrow morning? None. If you have the money, shorting could be good this week.

However, as the plunge slows down, I'd look into anything with solid fundamentals for a good long-term hold (20 years or more). I've been cursing myself for missing Apple's recent rise, and I'll be looking into their prices and fundamentals this week.

re: #111 merrytexas

Add into the equation the idea of assured market instability if this deal did not pass.

Add into the equation the fear that our enemies may take this opportunity to launch an economic attack.

This is a reasonable deal.

Earlier #66 Russkilitlover said, "Do no harm." This is an apt medical observation.

The American financial market has a heart-attack financial paper crises in its investment houses. This will reverberate. The American economy remains fundamentally sound so the government proposes a remedy via this cooperative deal.

We should all wish this treatment good luck.

re: #184 Russkilitlover

Except that our "confidence" needs to now be with government, not the private sector or markets. That makes me much less confident.

No- my confidence has to be with the bank my bosses have my paycheck in.

re: #182 solomonpanting

Here's one look.

Thanks! Not a whole lot of confidence displayed in downward graphs!

re: #156 Mich-again
Thank you Mich - that's realwest: sleeping pill for the lizards! LOL!

Maybe we're going to fall now, for better or worse.

Just a thought.

If it happens, I'll probably lose 90% of what I've saved.

But it may just be in the stars at this point.

Just a thought.

Should I cash it out now, buy gold and canned goods, guns and ammo? Are property values in the mountains depressed right now?

re: #147 realwest

I'm sorry but I disagree with you (and apparently Michelle Malkin) no bailout would have meant, litererally a bank and credit meltdown. Banks haven't even been loaning to other banks for several days now, no one would have bought those stupid crappy mortgages at almost ANY price cause no one can borrow the money necessary to do that.

We sold a spec house one week ago. The usual delays in closing but I was sweating something mean waiting for the check to clear last Monday. I had visions of the buyers moved in and the bank named on the check closing doors the same day.

I haven't heard anything yet, but I am wondering what has happened with legitimate mortgage applications this past week.

re: #139 Mich-again

Well thank you then. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer or MBA. To me, when a Prof makes it sound really complicated, its a tell they don't really understand the material. And to say that Bill is complicated is an understatement.

It's not that I entirely agree with you. It's that, no matter what, in the end, no matter what is done, you and I are screwed.

The problem isn't this bailout.

The problem is the attitudes that produced the series of problems that produced the legislation that produced this bailout. The grasshoppers get to punish the ants; and it's not going to stop, because even the ants don't seem to understand that they don't deserve what's happening to them.

We would be better off if every year we contributed to a huge charitable fund that was doled out without the slightest merit, provided the people qualified to benefit had done not one blessed thing to help themselves, unless it was by accident. This largesse would be dropped upon the designated recipients at Christmas, with much rejoicing. Then we'd forget about them for another year.

I suspect it would do more good than all the social programs we've ever instituted.

re: #158 ParisParamus

Can't someone at least, figuratively, punch Barney Frank in the face? I hope, if/when this thing is signed, McCain goes after the Dems; explains that because his party is the minority, he had to compromise, but really goes after Frank and Dodd, et al!

I'm hoping that was why Mac laid back in the debate. Just get this bill passed and then drop the hammer on those douchebage.

"[...] and for other purposes" Open-ended much?

[Link: www2.nationalreview.com...]

10 taxpayer, to take advantage of the HOPE for Home11
owners Program under section 257 of the National Hous12
ing Act or other available programs to minimize fore13
closures. In addition, the Secretary may use loan guaran14
tees and credit enhancements to facilitate loan modifica15
tions to prevent avoidable foreclosures

still there

re: #168 Steffan

The catch is that the Dems know it's a poison pill. If they pass it without Republican shills to share the blame, their political careers are toast. They literally don't have the cojones to pass it on their own.

Exactly. They won't pass it alone because it will be political suicide. It already is and they want republicans to shoulder the blame.

re: #192 Russkilitlover

Thanks! Not a whole lot of confidence displayed in downward graphs!

Don't shoot the messenger.

Like I said. It's not a perfect bill, but it is not a Constitutional amendment either. It is not set in stone. The main thing right now is to restore liquidity to the financial markets. If something in the bill doesn't work, or something needs to be added, changes can be made, yes, even after it is signed into law. Would it be hard to get some of those changes made? Yes, especially if people are benefiting from the bill as it is now written. But the citizenry has to wake up and treat this like a war, because it is. The U.S. citizenry made enormous sacrifices to win WW2. Now, we are fighting much of our own government and some of our fellow citizens. All I can say is, it will be a hell of a lot easier for us to fight if we're not in the middle of a depression as well.

re: #159 Ceemack

I skimmed the whole thing looking for the one thing that absolutely, positively has to be part of any bailout deal: repealing the requirement that banks consider factors other than basic creditworthiness when considering mortgage applications.

That Clinton-era requirement started the whole sub-prime mortgage business, and so is the root cause of the entire mess.

We're supposed to pay $700 billion for a bailout (the initial amount is down to $250 billion, but the provisions of the deal allow the amount to go as high as $700 billion), without actually fixing the source of the whole problem--the subprime meltdown, the housing bubble, the whole thing?

And me--who didn't buy a house because he couldn't afford one without a ridiculous sub-prime mortgage--or my friends--who bought early on, using standard mortgages, and didn't cash out their equity with seconds when prices started climing--get to foot the bill for decades to come?

I don't #@$!#!%! think so.

Without fixing that, I say no deal on a bailout. Let the whole damned thing collapse, if that's what it takes.

re: #157 Thanos

There are caps to this, President has to ask congress for each add'l 100 B spent after the first 250.

Wrong. There are provisions whereby Congress need not act and the additional bailouts are automatic.

OK not to sweat -- HOPE is not HELP or ACORN, HOPE is an FHA program.

I think the intent here is to get FMAC & GMMA loans redone as FHA

re: #160 Peter Verkooijen

FYI, I'm 36, renting in NY, I have no assets, trying to bootstrap a company the old-fashioned way.

Then perhaps you should ask for assistance from those who have passed your way before.

re: #204 Thanos

thank you , ! really i was indeed starting a light mist

re: #190 experiencedtraveller

Add into the equation the idea of assured market instability if this deal did not pass.

Add into the equation the fear that our enemies may take this opportunity to launch an economic attack.

So we should pass the bill due to "fear" of what MIGHT happen if we don't? Whether it's a good deal or not? Isn't that fearmongering?

re: #162 reine.de.tout

Someone upthread mentioned EEO, and that's a good route to check out; but I don't understand this "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would they not want those very people who already have experience and are familiar with their operations? That makes no sense. Suggest if you have time and energy you check that out further.

Because, they don't like you to have all that history. NREL is run by a government contractor, Midwest Industries. It is common practice to "phase" employees out do to age and health reasons. I know that is not legal, but prove it. I was phased out due to budget, but because I was there for 15 years and now in my 50's, they managed to kill two corporate "policies" with one stone. There were a lot of younger and less tenured employees in out center (IT) but I fitted that profile of people they liked to find ways of getting rid of.

Before I worked for NREL, I worked for an employment law firm, just a few blocks away from the lab. I worked for the lawyers for 3 years. I went to them, they looked over the matter and told me, I'd never win. The NREL lawyers had their ducks lined up really nice.

So, as I say, I've looked into the legalities of all this, and yes, they probably did something wrong, but no, there is now chance in hell that I could break the back of these folks.

I was making 80 thou a year, now I make 18 thou in the theatre business. I have sent out over 800 resumes in the last 4 years and not ONE bite.

re: #185 merrytexas

Republican Platform (standing on our conservative principles): "We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself. We believe in the free market as the best tool to sustained prosperity and opportunity for all.”

Exactly my point. Thank you.

re: #127 Russkilitlover

Dollar's up, oil's down.

re: #199 willowone

I'm not an economist, but I would think a flood of foreclosed homes no one can buy would not be helpful. A flood of more defaulted mortgages would be harmful.

re: #202 Tigger2005

My husband, a business prof, made the same point. What the gov't gives the Gov't can take away or renegotiate to prevent windfalls for the guilty.

re: #181 Thanos

I suspect we will have follow-ons to this, remember it's emergency legislation. On the bright side, if they do this you might be able to buy a home cheap. If they don't do this, nobody will be able to get credit. That's the point at which foreigners start buying our institutions for pennies on the dollar. We really don't need that.

If it's not part of the initial bailout legislation, it won't happen. The need for the bailout is the only thing that can force enough Democrats in Congress to go along with it.

And no, if this passes I won't be buying a house cheap. Currently it takes a minimum of $400K where I live to buy a detached SFR in anything other than gang territory. That's after the declines we've already had. Provisions in the bailout are aimed at halting foreclosures, which more than anything else is what's been driving home prices down, so prices wouldn't drop a whole lot more.

And if we don't fix the requirement that banks issue sub-prime mortgages, why won't we be right back in this mess down the road?

Without a fix for the root cause, we're just writing a blank check with lots and lots of zeroes.

I say proceed with this pig.

The main thing right now is to restore confidence in our financial markets. We can tweak this thing once McCain gets in; if Obama wins we are all screwed anyway.

re: #210 jonathan1984

Dollar's up, oil's down.

A positive sign.

re: #207 merrytexas

It's not "fear"; it's a good, rational expectation of the costs of doing nothing. Big difference.

re: #204 Thanos

OK not to sweat -- HOPE is not HELP or ACORN, HOPE is an FHA program.

I think the intent here is to get FMAC & GMMA loans redone as FHA

I'm not sure that's the link you intended.

Sen. Dodd's Shot at Redemption
[Link: online.wsj.com...]
For Sen. Dodd, the bailout plan could give him not just the prominence that he unsuccessfully sought on the campaign trail, but also a chance at political redemption.
Over the years, Sen. Dodd has not only struggled to get out of his father's shadow but also to restore the Dodd family's name; the elder Sen. Dodd was censured by the Senate for personal use of campaign funds.

I would have the headline read: Sen. Dodd - redemption or shot?
I don't know what knob got polished where, but WSJ gave me a laugh, so I will wish you all a goodnight.

re: #159 Ceemack

If a whole bunch of conservative pension funds wouldn't go "poof!", I'd agree.

Pension funds trusted Freddie and Fannie.

Granny's pension is more important than my irritation.

re: #213 Ceemack

You can buy a great house in Missouri or Kansas cheap, there's not such a gang problem here. Why I left the left coast years ago.

re: #161 realwest

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

It's very simple. The Dems love it. The R's hate. That tells me all I need to know.

I also do not believe that this will "fix" anything. We are still going to crash it will just be slower and softer now.

re: #159 Ceemack

I was listening to a radio news program today (local CBS station on Am). The host was asking an "expert" if the policies of the past 30 years have led us to this. The "expert" said, "the de-regulation under Reagan and continued exponentially under Bush" have led to this situation.

I almost sent my fist through my car radio. The bad policies began under CARTER and were EXPANDED under CLINTON!

re: #211 Sharmuta
I wish i understood this type of language.

And who ever posted that they thought computer programmers were a needed profession, well, yes. In the 80's and 90's, we were a special breed. Since the turn of the century, every other kid out of high school is heading off to take IT classes in college. Now, programmers are a dime a dozen.

Whether or not you think this "bailout" in its currently proposed state is a necessary evil, I am certain you can be assured of one thing - it will indeed be a "crap sandwich". As we know, "bi-partisan" cooperation on The Hill these days essentially means Republicans caving in to Democrat demands. I can guarantee you that this plan will be rife with murky provisions and extremely questionable judgment, and that it will reek of neo-socialism. This is a dark period in American history about to unfold before our very eyes.

re: #160 Peter Verkooijen
Good one Peter - it's not bad enough that the Dems want to start a class warfare between poor/middle class and the ""rich" but now you want to start a generational war?
FYI - the Baby Boomers - those who came into politics during Vietnam, have in fact been the generation that has paid THE MOST in Social Security and Medicare (and are only now starting to draw on it) is the Generation that started IRA's, 401's and union and employer pension plans and has, generally speaking been far more PRODUCTIVE than any generation since, including YOURS. We started business, expanded existing businesses and for the most part were able to keep the United States out of any godawful WARS that killed as many American soldiers in a month in Vietnam as were killed in any year since Vietnam.
Thank you very fucking much.

re: #179 Maximu§

It's all right.

Given those ads I hear every day, trying to tell people that the eeeeevillllll credit card companies are to blame for their self-indulgence (and the marketing departments do deserve at least some blame), it's not a surprise that folks don't understand what their minimum payment actually means.

re: #217 Sharmuta

I'm not sure that's the link you intended.

You are right

Here's the HOPE FHA program, it's to get people stuck in ARM's into a reasonable FHA loan. Better alternative to burning down the house. Some money is better than no money sometimes.

re: #140 Thanos

Credit comes from institutions with money on hand, like savings and loans, and Insurance co. If they start having to hold more reserve, cash flows out, capital and credit becomes much harder to get. Projects stop, more people get laid off, leading to even less liquidity as everyone reigns in purchases and companies cut expenses to cover that. It can be a real downward spiral. I really do think this "flooring" is needed, as awful as it may seem.

I have to agree. From what I've been reading, liquidity of the market is the key issue. If they don't get the cover from this bill, "illiquidity" will force banks and lending institutions to have capital reserves up front to operate.... and a lot of them don't. We'd be looking at Black Thursday, squared.

Because Paulson went public with his doomsaying, Congress has to do something. It almost doesn't matter what they do, as long as they do something and are seen to be doing something.

re: #209 Naso Tang

Thankfully, Republicans (true fiscally conservative Republicans) standing on their principles of free market economy have yet to be proven wrong.

re: #228 Thanos

alright than that would make sense with next bit;(2) MODIFICATIONS.—In the case of a residen14
tial mortgage loan, modifications made under para15
graph (1) may include—
16 (A) reduction in interest rates;
17 (B) reduction of loan principal; and
18 (C) other similar modifications.
19 (

re: #185 merrytexas

Well, that's all very well, except that the problem here was caused by the government, and has been passed off to the private sector, and the pension funds.

Go figure.

Liberal Socialist Hell on Earth

re: #228 Thanos

You are right

Here's the HOPE FHA program, it's to get people stuck in ARM's into a reasonable FHA loan. Better alternative to burning down the house. Some money is better than no money sometimes.

That's what I was thinking.

re: #214 Racer X

I say proceed with this pig.

The main thing right now is to restore confidence in our financial markets. We can tweak this thing once McCain gets in; if Obama wins we are all screwed anyway.

The imperfections in the bill give McCain a chance to talk about his rejected oversight plan and hammer the Democrats as well. People instinctively know that continuing to lend money to the poor is a bad idea... the fact that this doesn't address that issue gives McCain a good reason to pound that point home. He will pick up independents if he does.

A perfect bill wouldn't help McCain.

re: #212 SpartanWoman

My husband, a business prof, made the same point. What the gov't gives the Gov't can take away or renegotiate to prevent windfalls for the guilty.

Thank you. I think people need to stop seeing this bill as the Ten Commandments or something. ALMOST ANY LAW CAN BE CHANGED OR REPEALED. It is up to us to not give up and keep fighting. The defeatist comments I hear from some are sickening. Our fathers and grandfathers and great and great-great grandfathers left their farms and businesses and homes and families and DIED to save this country. What's being asked of US is that we become much more active in the political process, that we work overtime to persuade our friends and neighbors and others that free markets really do work and socialism is not the answer, that we elect reformist conservative politicians and stay on their asses to make sure they do what we expect of them. If that's too much for us to handle, then we are not worthy of the sacrifices our forefathers (and foremothers) made for us.

re: #178 Russkilitlover
"I have printed the entire 116 page Bill and have been reading it for the last several hours."
Thank you for taking/having the time to read it and for proving my point.

re: #207 merrytexas

It is not fearmongering. It is a reasonable investment in a commercial infrastructure that has performed very well and should continue to serve well in the future.

Like any infrastructure it occasionally needs attention and maintenance best provided via democratic governance. Which we are witnessing.

re: #233 West Coast Freedom

What is? Explain what your statement is about, becuase it doesn't say anything as posted.

re: #70 Claire

What if housing prices keep dropping? How are they going to re-coup the money they shelled out for these mortgages? Do they keep them indefinitely till the house price reaches back up to the original level? What if that takes 15 years?

I totally don't understand the ins and outs of this-

part of the problem with banks holding these dogs. under the mark to market law bank can only value these assets at current market value, not at maturity. this bill gives authority to suspend and sets up some blue ribbon commission to look at changing the rule permanently, but doe not repeal outright. if they would just get rid of that rule it'd help a lot - financial inst could more accurately state assets

re: #161 realwest

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

Someone posted the link in the previous thread. We've been reading and chewing it for a while.

I think some here are confusing defeatism with healthy cynicism, IMO.

re: #222 Russkilitlover

I was listening to a radio news program today (local CBS station on Am). The host was asking an "expert" if the policies of the past 30 years have led us to this. The "expert" said, "the de-regulation under Reagan and continued exponentially under Bush" have led to this situation.

I almost sent my fist through my car radio. The bad policies began under CARTER and were EXPANDED under CLINTON!

Woe be unto us ... we have been taken over. Will the power of the internet be enough to pull us out?

re: #232 Dianna

Well, that's all very well, except that the problem here was caused by the government, and has been passed off to the private sector, and the pension funds.

I think both are culpable. The government said it was OK to do risky loans; lenders could have steered clear of them. Some jumped on them like a hog to grits.

re: #238 experiencedtraveller

It is not fearmongering. It is a reasonable investment in a commercial infrastructure that has performed very well and should continue to serve well in the future.

Like any infrastructure it occasionally needs attention and maintenance best provided via democratic governance. Which we are witnessing.

This is not democratic governance, it is socialistic governance, period. How can it be called anything else. It is certainly not free market. Hell, Hamas was elected by "democratic governance" but those folks are not working as a democracy in any sense of the concept.

re: #239 Walter L. Newton

I'm an honest paying hard working mortgage owning American. Why are they helping the very people that caused this?

1. NO REFORM: The plan attempts to mask, rather than reform, imbalances in credit markets and in U.S. economic public policy. The plan props up reckless and failed banks by buying “troubled assets” instead of focusing on real reforms that go after government sponsored culprits Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and sustainable policies that will increase the availability of private capital and expanded economic growth.

Is something happening in the financial world? Everything's fine, right?

Whistle, whistle, whistle.

re: #237 realwest

"I have printed the entire 116 page Bill and have been reading it for the last several hours."
Thank you for taking/having the time to read it and for proving my point.

Believe me, it's not fun reading! I'd rather be reading anything else! And what I'm reading does not have a satisfying ending, IMHO. I guess it's a leap of faith type thing. Do we have faith that our federal government will dispose of their new piggy-bank in accordance with the Bill's provisions? We may be singing this same song 2 years from now. And in the meantime, home prices will stagnate and 401k's will go into snooze.

[Link: www.rules.house.gov...]

I'm curious do all the lawmakers have their own?

re: #183 SpartanWoman
Yep, "A very big thank you is in order to the geniuses who "sat out" the last election to "teach" the GOP a lesson" they sure did teach us a lesson. And I'm afraid it's a lesson that will have to be relearned after this coming election.
For our system of goverment to work it requires an informed electorate, not just people who pull the lever on whether or not there's a (D) or an (R) after their names or how well they dress, how young or old they are or appear to be.
WE the people had better damn well wake up soon or "America" won't be left standing.

re: #226 realwest

... FYI - the Baby Boomers - those who came into politics during Vietnam, have in fact been the generation that has paid THE MOST in Social Security and Medicare (and are only now starting to draw on it) ...

Perhaps in dollar amount, because the boomers have the large numbers and these entitlements were expanded since the 1960s. They're still underfunded and my generation will end up paying for them, much more than we will ever get out of the system. By the time the boomers are finally dead and buried these programs will be long bankrupt.

re: #244 Racer X

I think both are culpable. The government said it was OK to do risky loans; lenders could have steered clear of them. Some jumped on them like a hog to grits.

Some did but many institutions were cowed into this.

And those who signed for loans in order to flip properties just added fuel to the fire.

re: #224 Walter L. Newton

And who ever posted that they thought computer programmers were a needed profession, well, yes. In the 80's and 90's, we were a special breed. Since the turn of the century, every other kid out of high school is heading off to take IT classes in college. Now, programmers are a dime a dozen.

When I started it was Cobol and Fortran, and few others that differed mostly in syntax. Easy to learn them all (without kids, wife and mortgage to distract).

Now it is so specialized that one really needs to find a niche to be good at. Like creating nifty blog systems on the fly, for example

I was in software programming, systems, sales, etc for 30 years or so. I thought I would see if I could get back in at the bottom and picked Python to learn. Got a 12 inch stack of books and software clogging up my PC, but all I got out of it was a crappy mandelbrot program and a headache.

One needs to start this stuff early and burn out early these days. Churn and burn as they say, which is why I'm in real estate investing.

/joy joy

re: #248 Russkilitlover

no faith with an Obama win.

More with McCain.

re: #246 West Coast Freedom

I'm an honest paying hard working mortgage owning American. Why are they helping the very people that caused this?

1. NO REFORM: The plan attempts to mask, rather than reform, imbalances in credit markets and in U.S. economic public policy. The plan props up reckless and failed banks by buying “troubled assets” instead of focusing on real reforms that go after government sponsored culprits Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and sustainable policies that will increase the availability of private capital and expanded economic growth.

I just don't know how many times this can be said. Stop a financial collapse and then fix the fucking law! It is not writ in stone!

re: #230 merrytexas

Thankfully, Republicans (true fiscally conservative Republicans) standing on their principles of free market economy have yet to be proven wrong.

and no doubt they will always think so ;)

re: #185 merrytexas
That would be a GREAT plank in a party's platform if that party didn't also think it was cool to have the Government REQUIRE that Free Market loan money to folks the Free Market KNOWS can't pay it back.

re: #220 Thanos

You can buy a great house in Missouri or Kansas cheap, there's not such a gang problem here. Why I left the left coast years ago.

This is my home.

What's your theory here, Einstein? That I should abandon my family and move to...Kansas? So the next time my mother has a heart attack, she's on her own?

I'm not some carpetbagger from out of state. I was born here, and I've lived here all my life. I shouldn't have to leave because of Bill Clinton and Janet Reno--or Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Chris Dodd and Barney Frank.