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Bailout Details

Business | Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 7:59:52 pm PDT

Here’s the complete text (PDF) of the deal.

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678 comments

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1 Salem  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:00:46pm

Snuh.

2 Mich-again  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:02:07pm
Here’s the complete text (PDF) of the deal.

Stephen King never wrote anything scarier.

3 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:02:38pm

Myth vs Fact on bailout compromise

Myth: Windfall for ACORN.

Fact: The Frank-Dodd proposal created an affordable housing slush fund and directed 20 percent of net benefits from the program to be directed to ACORN-type organizations. The proposed compromise does not include any affordable housing slush fund and directs all net benefits back to the Treasury to pay down the national debt.

4 doriangrey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:02:56pm

The complete details as they exist right now, now including the additions that will be slipped in, in closed door dealings just hours before the final vote...

5 guzziguy  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:02:58pm

Think I'll wait for the Cliff's Notes version that should be out sometime tomorrow.

6 doriangrey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:03:43pm

re: #4 doriangrey

The complete details as they exist right now, now not including the additions that will be slipped in, in closed door dealings just hours before the final vote...

7 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:03:47pm

Thank you for providing the correct link, Charles.

8 HelloDare  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:04:34pm

Typo on page 87.

9 steve  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:05:45pm

And I thought I would never have to read this stuff again.

10 rawmuse  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:06:34pm

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

11 galloping granny  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:06:47pm

re: #7 Sharmuta

Thank you for providing the correct link, Charles.

Sharm, these is not the link to the Congressional website and the authentic copy. This is at National Review. Might be the current correct one. Might not. At any rate, if they are voting at 8 there are still 8 hours and 54 minutes to fuck it up in after we've all relaxed.

12 Maximu§  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:06:51pm

I could'nt open it. Someone please tell me that the banks were forced to lower their intrest rates on credit cards, so people can have a chance of paying them off.

13 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:07:49pm

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

Maybe you have the Conference Committee version. Everything can change in the Conference Committee.

14 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:07:54pm

re: #10 rawmuse

You have to wave a match under it Raw...Invisible ink and all....

15 loflyer  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:08:09pm

As usual, those that created this mess, corrupt business interests and the Democrats expect the US tax payer to pay the bill for their stupidity. At the very least, business should absorb some the loss, and to be fair, the Democrats should pony up about 350 billion to pay for there share of this. Just think, one or two good flicks out of Hollywood would bay for there share of the mess. No accountability or "heads will roll" this is BS and everyone of us know it.....

16 Kosh's Shadow  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:08:49pm

re: #5 guzziguy

Think I'll wait for the Cliff's Notes version that should be out sometime tomorrow.

I'd rather the Lizard Notes version that will come out tonight in this thread.

17 least  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:09:00pm

re: #1 Salem

Snuh.

Yah shure, yew betcha.
Obfuscation at its best.
Your government at work.
Or not.
Dang! I hate to be so cynical, but 'most anything from congress invites cynicism.
Is that spelled right?

18 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:09:19pm

From the house link: O:AYOAYO08C04.xml

From the National Review link: O:AYOAYO08C04.xml

In other words- it's the same document.

19 rawmuse  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:09:32pm

Nature has a special on the Andes on, in HD. Hummingbirds right next to glaciers. Totally awesome.
Later, Lizards.

20 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:10:38pm

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

[Link: www.adobe.com...]

for Mac ... and options to change OS on the page.

21 galloping granny  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:11:02pm

re: #18 Sharmuta

From the house link: O:AYOAYO08C04.xml

From the National Review link: O:AYOAYO08C04.xml

In other words- it's the same document.

No, in other words it has the same file name. Either way I'm not going to worry my head over it. There is still 9 hours and 50 minutes of fuckup time remaining on the clock.

22 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:12:22pm

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.


It's better for your sanity that way..........

23 galloping granny  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:12:24pm

re: #21 galloping granny

No, in other words it has the same file name. Either way I'm not going to worry my head over it. There is still 98 hours and 50 minutes of fuckup time remaining on the clock.

And since I am obviously too tired to add and subtract, I will head off to bed for a couple of hours. See ya'll in the AM.

24 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:12:39pm

If I'm reading this correctly, Wall Street firms will be paying for the bailout through insurance premiums? Also establishes the Financial Stability Oversight Board.

25 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:13:06pm

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

My Adobe Reader 5.x couldn't handle it, I just updated to Rev 9.x.

26 Mich-again  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:14:00pm

The acronym TARP (troubled asset relief program) is a bit ironic. The word "TARP" implies a waterproof protective covering as it protects the stuff underneath it from liquid. I think "Liner" as in it keeps liquid in would be more accurate. Liars In Negotiation Enabling Redistribution.

27 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:14:25pm

re: #24 Racer X

If I'm reading this correctly, Wall Street firms will be paying for the bailout through insurance premiums? Also establishes the Financial Stability Oversight Board.

That new agency name makes me nervous. I get scared just think of how Obama thinks of using an agency like that.

28 JeremiahRight  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:14:29pm

ugh, 110 pages. I know I should read it, but it feels like some sort of punishment

29 jonathan1984  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:14:46pm

re: #25 itellu3times

Screw Adobe Reader; it's beyond awful. Use Foxit instead.

30 alien_mind  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:15:22pm

they're going to need a lot of lipstick to pass this thing.

31 HelloDare  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:15:39pm

re: #10 rawmuse

Something must be wrong with my pdf viewer. I can't get any text, just blank pages.

You have to enter the password: OBAMAMESSIAH

32 Mich-again  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:16:18pm

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

33 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:17:22pm

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

That new agency name makes me nervous. I get scared just think of how Obama thinks of using an agency like that.

I understand Franklin Raines has submitted his resume for consideration.

34 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:17:54pm

Pages 88-89 talk about mark-to-market.

35 nanook  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:18:05pm

re: #11 galloping granny

Sharm, these is not the link to the Congressional website and the authentic copy. This is at National Review. Might be the current correct one. Might not. At any rate, if they are voting at 8 there are still 8 hours and 54 minutes to fuck it up in after we've all relaxed.

Amen! I don't trust any of them, of any party, anymore. Bleh.

36 HelloDare  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:18:10pm

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

17 days before Obama's bill would have mandated all troops out of Iraq?

37 x-wing  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:18:21pm

re: #28 JeremiahRight

ugh, 110 pages. I know I should read it, but it feels like some sort of punishment

Unreal, this thing started only 3 pages thick. I should read it too, but I'm sure I'd just be scratching my head afterwards.

38 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:18:28pm

Page 39 talks about transparency, everything posted within 2 days. Good.

39 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:18:57pm

My quick scan doesn't show any slush fund for affordable acorns.

40 arethusa  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:19:16pm

Updating Ronald Reagan...the scariest words in the English language are "Congress is on the job."

(Or Nancy Pelosi is..., Barney Frank is..., as you wish.)

41 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:19:19pm

re: #33 Racer X

I understand Franklin Raines has submitted his resume for consideration.

Is that the Obama adviser from Freddie Mac?

42 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:19:31pm

What does Thaddeus say? Is it dung?

43 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:19:35pm

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

The next day, march 15th, is the "Ides of March". Which was a festival day dedicated to Mars, the god of War.

Julius Caesar did not care much for that day. He thought it ended badly.

44 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:19:37pm

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

I don't know, but I searched that date and got Axelrod.

45 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:20:10pm

Michelle Malkin listened in on "a phone conference this evening with anti-bailout conservatives, congressional staffers, and other Hill insiders. With only one exception, the groups and individuals on the call all opposed the bailout in its current form. They also concurred that this deal is worse than the one Paulson proposed — on constitutional, policy, and fiscal grounds."

There are lots of details at her site - she is vehemently anti-bailout; I'm convinced some sort of "bailout" is needed, but I frankly don't know enough to understand what I'm reading.

46 DesertSage  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:20:21pm

Scrap it!

Scrap it...now!

47 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:20:45pm

re: #29 jonathan1984

Screw Adobe Reader; it's beyond awful. Use Foxit instead.

Looks great, thanks!

Adobe gives me the willies.

48 BIG  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:21:14pm

It still has the 20% of any profit for ACORN. That part of the deal needs to be taken out. Any profits should just go to the treasury.

49 jonathan1984  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:21:26pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

Normally Michelle's decent enough, but she's way off-base on this. I'm not sure she fundamentally understands how big a problem this is.

50 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:21:43pm

re: #41 Dark_Falcon

Is that the Obama adviser from Freddie Mac?

Yes, he pocketed 90 mil, then had to resign as CEO due to accounting irregularities.

/kidding about his resume

51 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:21:48pm

re: #24 Racer X

If I'm reading this correctly, Wall Street firms will be paying for the bailout through insurance premiums? Also establishes the Financial Stability Oversight Board.

What ever THAT is! Sounds like a whole new gov bureaucracy!

As I read it. At the end of 5 years the gov will either dump these homes/mortgages on the market or will continue to hold them as the "bank" for these mortgages, and effectively socialize a large piece of the American economy. Which is worse? And what are the implications.

52 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:22:33pm

re: #49 jonathan1984

Normally Michelle's decent enough, but she's way off-base on this. I'm not sure she fundamentally understands how big a problem this is.

I agree with you. Doing nothing is not an option. A bailout is an absolute necessity.

53 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:22:55pm

re: #28 JeremiahRight

ugh, 110 pages. I know I should read it, but it feels like some sort of punishment

READ IT! And make you feelings known to your Senators and Congressperson.

54 nanook  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:22:59pm

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

Three years since the Cedar Revolution in Lebanon? Saint Mathilda's Day? Give us a hint?

55 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:23:03pm

re: #48 BIG

No- it doesn't!

Myth: Windfall for ACORN.

Fact: The Frank-Dodd proposal created an affordable housing slush fund and directed 20 percent of net benefits from the program to be directed to ACORN-type organizations. The proposed compromise does not include any affordable housing slush fund and directs all net benefits back to the Treasury to pay down the national debt.

56 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:23:13pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

They also concurred that this deal is worse than the one Paulson proposed — on constitutional, policy, and fiscal grounds."

I'm with Newt. Paulson should resign. He should have ALREADY resigned.

57 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:23:21pm

A deal.
Absolutely required deal.
A clear example of cooperative governance which is a good thing.

58 yesandno  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:23:32pm

re: #32 Mich-again

What is the significance of the date March 14, 2008? Anyone?

The Bear-Stearns bailout by JP Morgan?

59 Drill_Thrawl  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:23:49pm

re: #32 Mich-again

The last Business day for Bear Stearns perhaps.

60 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:24:04pm

re: #50 Racer X

Yes, he pocketed 90 mil, then had to resign as CEO due to accounting irregularities.

/kidding about his resume

If Obama is elected, you won't be kidding. Criminal actions are not a bar to appointments to members of the Chicago Machine.

61 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:24:09pm

Just posted on a dead thread, Michelle Malkin sums it up:

Ten Reasons to Oppose the Wall Street Bailout

1. NO REFORM: The plan attempts to mask, rather than reform, imbalances in credit markets and in U.S. economic public policy. The plan props up reckless and failed banks by buying “troubled assets” instead of focusing on real reforms that go after government sponsored culprits Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and sustainable policies that will increase the availability of private capital and expanded economic growth.

2. TREASURY POWER GRAB: The plan raises Constitutional concerns by dramatically expanding the power of the current and future Treasury Secretaries, giving the government agency power to directly purchase assets from for-profit financial and non-financial firms.

3. STUNNING PRICE TAG: The $700 billion bailout figure is as much money as the combined annual budgets of the Departments of Defense, Education and Health and Human Services. It amounts to $2,300 for every man, woman, and child in America.

4. INCREASES NATIONAL DEBT: Instead of cutting spending elsewhere, Congress will borrow all $700 billion on global capital markets, and the bill raises the national debt ceiling to a staggering $11.3 trillion.

5. GLOBAL BAILOUT: The plan includes taxpayer purchases of distressed assets from foreign banks.

6. HURTS RESPONSIBLE AMERICAN BANKS: The plan punishes responsible U.S. banks by keeping reckless, insolvent investment banks in business. As BB&T CEO John Allison wrote in a letter to Congress on Sept. 23rd, “….this is primarily a bailout of poorly run financial institutions…. Corrections are not all bad. The market correction process eliminates irrational competitors.”

7. FLAWED PROCESS: Members of Congress and the public will have less than 24 hours and no hearings to discuss and understand the impact of this sweeping plan. This rush to pass a wildly unpopular plan without benefit of significant public debate and input will also undermine its legitimacy and effectiveness.

8. BY WALL STREET, FOR WALL STREET: Treasury Secretary Paulson, the architect of the plan, was formerly the head of Goldman Sachs, one of the firms responsible for the mess and a direct beneficiary of the bailout. Further, the advisers managing the bailout auctions and assets will be Wall Street firms and will likely receive billions of tax dollars in fees.

9. OTHER OPTIONS NOT EXHAUSTED: The idea that taxpayers will make money on the bailout is not credible. There are ready buyers for these “troubled assets” — Merrill Lynch sold its entire portfolio of mortgage backed securities in July– provided the price is low enough. If a profit was possible, private speculators would readily buy these troubled assets.

10. MORALLY OFFENSIVE: The plan violates basic principles of American capitalism and honest governance by creating a system of “private profits, socialized losses” that transfers money from taxpayers directly to Wall Street investment banks. Free market capitalism only functions if individuals and firms are held accountable and are allowed to both succeed and profit, and also to sustain losses and even fail.

Hopefully most Republicans in Congress have the good sense to vote against it. I'm not counting on McCain. He should at least maintain plausible deniability.

If McCain is going to "claim credit" for this mess, he's toast. Obama will be president and this bailout will give him a head start in implementing socialism in the US.

62 SagamoreGal  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:24:43pm

We need more than one "hockey mom from Hicktown, USA" in D.C. to clean up the corrupt, self-serving bullshit that has gone on in DC for too many administrations, too many years.

63 newsjunkie_ky  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:24:55pm

Does this mean we don't have to make our mortgage payments anymore?

/

64 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:25:46pm

re: #62 SagamoreGal

We need more than one "hockey mom from Hicktown, USA" in D.C. to clean up the corrupt, self-serving bullshit that has gone on in DC for too many administrations, too many years.

Are you refering to Palin?

65 JeremyR  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:25:57pm

re: #26 Mich-again

The acronym TARP (troubled asset relief program) is a bit ironic. The word "TARP" implies a waterproof protective covering as it protects the stuff underneath it from liquid. I think "Liner" as in it keeps liquid in would be more accurate. Liars In Negotiation Enabling Redistribution.

Taxpayer Asses Recieve Poking?

66 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:26:16pm

re: #57 experiencedtraveller

A deal.
Absolutely required deal.
A clear example of cooperative governance which is a good thing.

First, do no harm! Has anyone in our legislature kept this axiom in mind?

67 x-wing  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:26:19pm

re: #63 newsjunkie_ky

Does this mean we don't have to make our mortgage payments anymore?

/

If it does I'm buying a new house tomorrow.

///

68 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:26:33pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

Michelle Malkin listened in on "a phone conference this evening with anti-bailout conservatives, congressional staffers, and other Hill insiders. With only one exception, the groups and individuals on the call all opposed the bailout in its current form. They also concurred that this deal is worse than the one Paulson proposed — on constitutional, policy, and fiscal grounds."

There are lots of details at her site - she is vehemently anti-bailout; I'm convinced some sort of "bailout" is needed, but I frankly don't know enough to understand what I'm reading.

Me too.

She raises many points. How good they all are, is hard to say.

But the question is still, are we on the edge of a precipice, or not?

This is incredible.

69 JeremiahRight  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:26:40pm

re: #53 Russkilitlover

READ IT! And make you feelings known to your Senators and Congressperson.

you know, I probably shouldn't have posted that. It's actually not bad to read, the font size is large, double spaced and each sentence is only about half the width of the page. It goes pretty quick. I agree we all should read it

70 Claire  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:27:02pm

What if housing prices keep dropping? How are they going to re-coup the money they shelled out for these mortgages? Do they keep them indefinitely till the house price reaches back up to the original level? What if that takes 15 years?

I totally don't understand the ins and outs of this-

71 doriangrey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:27:03pm

re: #67 x-wing

If it does I'm buying a new house tomorrow.

///

Me too........

72 Coldpizza  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:27:17pm

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

73 lifeofthemind  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:27:23pm

Hey, how did the text of Alan Sokal's "Transgressing the Boundaries: Toward a Transformative Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity" get inserted into this?

74 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:27:42pm

Interesting article about this crisis.

The Cloward-Piven Strategy. It describes their agenda, tactics, and long-term strategy.


The Strategy was first elucidated in the May 2, 1966 issue of The Nation magazine by a pair of radical socialist Columbia University professors, Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven. David Horowitz summarizes it as:


The strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis. The "Cloward-Piven Strategy" seeks to hasten the fall of capitalism by overloading the government bureaucracy with a flood of impossible demands, thus pushing society into crisis and economic collapse.


Cloward and Piven were inspired by radical organizer [and Hillary Clinton mentor] Saul Alinsky:


"

Make the enemy live up to their (sic) own book of rules," Alinsky wrote in his 1989 book Rules for Radicals. When pressed to honor every word of every law and statute, every Judeo-Christian moral tenet, and every implicit promise of the liberal social contract, human agencies inevitably fall short. The system's failure to "live up" to its rule book can then be used to discredit it altogether, and to replace the capitalist "rule book" with a socialist one. (Courtesy Discover the Networks.org)

Hat-tip: Born Again Republican.

75 Mich-again  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:27:43pm
23 (b) MEMBERSHIP.—The Financial Stability Over24
sight Board shall be comprised of—
(3) the Director of the Federal Home Finance Agency;


That line means that Freddie Raines is now officially part of the solution. Blech.

76 doriangrey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:27:57pm

re: #70 Claire

I totally don't understand the ins and outs of this-

You are not suppose to, that's the whole point.

77 JeremyR  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:28:04pm

re: #49 jonathan1984

Normally Michelle's decent enough, but she's way off-base on this. I'm not sure she fundamentally understands how big a problem this is.

She understands it. No bail out is the best bet. The whole mess is internal, and if they had not been padding their pockets would not be nearly as bad.

78 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:28:12pm

re: #73 lifeofthemind

Heh.

79 newsjunkie_ky  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:28:20pm

wonder if The One will try to vote 'present' on the bill? Or will he be too busy to vote?

80 Alouette  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:28:25pm

Good night, good people.

81 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:28:32pm

Other stuff paulson can buy with your money

A useful and snarky link that tells the govt just what we think of their malpractice amd malfeasance

82 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:28:42pm

re: #61 Peter Verkooijen

The stunning speed that this think is being rammed through indicates, to me, that responsible heads will NOT roll and will, in fact be covered up in politic-speak. There are a lot of ASSES being covered and protected right now and the implications of such shortsightedness WILL be felt....but when?

83 CofactorMatrix  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:28:47pm

Flush this floater.

84 jaunte  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:29:00pm

Section 110
(2) MODIFICATIONS.—In the case of a residential mortgage loan, modifications made under paragraph (1) may include—
(A) reduction in interest rates;
(B) reduction of loan principal; and
(C) other similar modifications.

Congratulations, deadbeats, the taxpayers are going to buy your house for you to live in.

85 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:29:26pm

re: #72 Coldpizza

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

You should buy your morning coffee. Sit at your desk, and put on your seatbealt.

Whatever happens, where ever you are, it will be a wild ride.

86 drmark  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:29:44pm

Bend over taxpayers

87 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:29:52pm

re: #74 MandyManners

Okay, now I really have a headache! And me here with no wine, vodka, or any other spirits!

88 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:30:11pm

re: #57 experiencedtraveller

A deal.
Absolutely required deal.
A clear example of cooperative governance which is a good thing.

*cooperative governance*

How would Thaddeus translate that for me?

cooperative governance = we had a bipartisan meeting but forgot to invite the republicans

89 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:30:15pm

re: #72 Coldpizza

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

Let me see the opening first. Futures currently modestly down.

But for now, all moves are high-risk.

90 x-wing  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:30:17pm

re: #70 Claire

What if housing prices keep dropping? How are they going to re-coup the money they shelled out for these mortgages? Do they keep them indefinitely till the house price reaches back up to the original level? What if that takes 15 years?

I totally don't understand the ins and outs of this-


I not sure either, but I think they buy the mortgages from the Banks at a discount, say 40 or 50 cents on the dollar. And then they resell. My head was spinning trying to understand it.

91 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:30:19pm

I'm not sure the bailout will work. The media has trash talked the economy for so long that unless they hail this Bill as the Ten Commandments we are still in for a mess.

92 Drill_Thrawl  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:30:36pm

re: #52 Dark_Falcon

I agree with you. Doing nothing is not an option. A bailout is an absolute necessity.

If this bill is so darn important then why is it that...?

1. It has it taken so long to get it to the floor when the Dems like it and they have control?

2. The Dems feel they could load it with crap. (Acorn, unions on a board...)?

3. It will take TWO MORE DAYS to get through the Senate?

4. Issues such as CRA, CDS's, Naked shorts and incompitent Fed, Treasury, and SEC actions are not even basicly address.

This all leads me to believe it is a total sham.

93 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:30:38pm

re: #61 Peter Verkooijen

You and MM may oppose the deal but I will list a few Americans who will benefit from the deal.

1. Anyone with anything in the stock market.
2. Anyone with or hoping to have a 401k.
3. Anyone with or hoping to have a 529.

The American economy is fundamentally sound. It has a problem that this cooperative agreement is trying to address.

I wish it good luck.

94 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:30:45pm

I see that Barry Hussein is trying to take complete credit for the so-called "safeguards" contained in the bailout. He just never stops.

95 rawmuse  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:31:22pm

re: #74 MandyManners

I read that. It makes this whole thing look like a very well prepared trap, and here we are putting our feet right in to it.

I am not terribly optimistic about this. Maybe we have to do it but if so, we will pay in ways we have never imagined.
Maybe our days as free citizens are over. We are now subjects. It is possible.

96 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:31:55pm

re: #94 Cartman

I see that Barry Hussein is trying to take complete credit for the so-called "safeguards" contained in the bailout. He just never stops lying

There ya go

97 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:32:00pm

re: #84 jaunte

ANY mention of individual mortgages is inappropriate, a sop to demorats.

Didja see Robert Reichhhhhhhhh on ABC this morning? He wanted to include unemployment insurance in the bill. Maroon.

98 zato  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:32:28pm

For the economic policy debate, can we count on Barry coming out clean and saying something along the lines of-
"My own house was above my pay grade. In fact, I too was bailed out when buying a house that I couldn't afford to close on. By a convicted felon, no less. In fact, look, I wear a bracelet with Tony Rezko's name on it. And speaking of bracelets, I have many more- when I gave my great speech on race, very few people knew that I wore a J-Wright/Louis Farrakhan bracelet. And the reason they love me outside America is that I wear another bracelet which honors Bill Ayers."

99 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:32:33pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

Myth vs Fact on bailout compromise

Can we get an "ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY GONNA BE!" guarantee on this?

100 Globular Cluster  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:32:38pm

This is FALSE.

ACORN is out only by name. Page 25, Sec. 109 states:
…”the Secretary may use loan guarantees and credit enhancements to facilitate loan modifications to prevent avoidable foreclosures……..to take advantage of the HOPE for Homeowners Program ……of the National Housing Act or other available programs to minimize foreclosures.”

WHAT A CROCK! IT IS ALL CODE FOR ACORN. READ IT! MICHELLE IS RIGHT!

Starlink on September 28, 2008 at 10:33 PM

We need to examine this further and reach a determination about whether ACORN is truly out of the bill. This is really a disgrace.

101 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:32:43pm

re: #65 JeremyR

Taxpayer Asses Recieve Poking?

Taxpayer Asses Reamed Permanently.

102 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:32:45pm

I wonder who thought up the term "TARP"? Bet they get brownie points for that.

I"m reading it, so far seems reasonable, but I'm only a little way in.

103 ColdPizza  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:32:49pm

Does anyone know the Stock symbol for Smith&Wesson?

104 CommonCents  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:32:51pm

My favorite line in all Congressional bills....

and for other purposes.

Thank you for the specificity.

105 Drill_Thrawl  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:33:08pm

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

...Criminal actions are not a bar to appointments to members of the Chicago Machine.

Actually I think it is a pre-requisite for higher office in Chi-Town

106 x-wing  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:33:14pm

re: #79 newsjunkie_ky


The jackass sai he would only go back to D.C if his vote is needed. This guy wont take a stand on anything, and he's leading in the polls.

/I'm about to throw-up.

107 Mich-again  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:33:49pm

I don't need to read it all to know this much.

1) If the banks make money, its theirs to keep.

2) If the banks lose money, the US taxpayer foots the bill.

Gambling with house chips. That is the main purpose of the Federal Reserve System. The Fed is a private bank. Its not Federal and there is no Reserve. A perfect name.

108 Ron Bacardi  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:33:51pm

I'm currently taking a course on legislative drafting, which means I'll soon be able to write bills like these..... >_>

109 Drill_Thrawl  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:34:16pm

re: #85 Syrah

You should buy your morning coffee. Sit at your desk, and put on your seatbealt.

Whatever happens, where ever you are, it will be a wild ride.


Buy ammo, canned goods, dried beans, and botled watter.

110 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:34:23pm

re: #95 rawmuse

I read that. It makes this whole thing look like a very well prepared trap, and here we are putting our feet right in to it.

I am not terribly optimistic about this. Maybe we have to do it but if so, we will pay in ways we have never imagined.
Maybe our days as free citizens are over. We are now subjects. It is possible.

I am worried about the speed of the implementation and the future (not so distant) ramifications.

111 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:34:41pm

re: #93 experiencedtraveller

I have money in the stock market. I have a 401K. I'm a Conservative and would prefer to LOSE money than to give absolute power to Secy Paulson and the Dems through this bill. Country and principle should come first; otherwise you can kiss free markets goodbye. The market goes up, the market goes down. That's the way of the market.

disclaimer: I have not read the revised bill, so I don't know if it STILL gives Paulson absolute power.

112 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:35:01pm

re: #12 Maximu§

That was passed by law at least six years ago.

A minimum payment - assuming one is not an idjit and spends yet more - will pay the credit card off in two years.

113 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:35:41pm

re: #71 doriangrey

Me too........

Well, you can buy the house that I owned, and was foreclosed on. Here's how the folks in DC play games with our lives.

I worked for 15 years at the National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden, Co. Five years ago, this administration cut our budget, said renewable energy research was a waste of taxpayers money. We are the ONLY government lab in the country dedicated to this sort of research.

So, I was laid off, now in my 50's, and could not find a full time job as a computer programmer, which is what I had been doing for over 30 years.

So, things fall apart, and I loose the house.

Two years ago, when a lot of this energy cost problems started to get out of control, DC starts throwing TONS of money at the lab. Politicians on both sides of the aisles are visiting the lab, photo ops, speeches and patting each other on the back.

And now the lab is hiring again. But they have a "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees.

So, the energy crisis, real or imagined, whatever you feel about it, whatever is really the truth, it doesn't matter, but a whole lot of peoples lives changed because DC used us like some sort of beach ball, cutting our budget when they needed to look good, and pissing money on us when they needed to look good.

No fucking thought about the people who everyday, relied on NREL to support thier families.

Bailout my ass.

114 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:35:50pm

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

That new agency name makes me nervous. I get scared just think of how Obama thinks of using an agency like that.

I've been nervous ever since someone thought "Homeland Security" was a good name for a department.

115 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:36:08pm

Well all y'all good evening. I haven't read this nor do I intend to. As if and when Congress passes a bill, then I'll read it before Bush signs it or doen't sign it.
I have heard some respected economists say that the sum of $700 billion is enough for the short term to avoid a depression but not a recession; the bill allows the US Government to acquire stock in whatever institutions the fend "lends" money to - it'll actually be a sort of share buying by the Government and the government will be buying up foreclosed or going into foreclosure loans to hold onto those mortgages until the real estate value is back.
There is some cap on CEO and Executives Pay on institutions the Fed loans money to (i.e., acquires an ownership interest in) as well as to institutions where the Fed simply acquires the crappy mortgages.
As for Michelle Malkin and the die-hard "Free Economy" advocates, all I can say is: we haven't had "free enterprise" in this country since the 1920's and by restoring liquidity to lending institutions, we have made it possible for businesses to use their lines of credit to meet payroll and the like so it should soften SOME the number of layoffs that are going to be coming anyway.
And btw, the real estate economy, save for some bumps in the road, has been on pretty much of an upswing for the past 35 years or so - I think the Taxpayers will ultimately make money off this deal.

116 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:36:44pm

re: #100 Globular Cluster

We need to examine this further and reach a determination about whether ACORN is truly out of the bill. This is really a disgrace.

HOPE== HELP and other similar programs created by the Dems to feed ACORN right?

117 Claire  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:36:46pm

re: #61 Peter Verkooijen

What Michelle says makes sense, EXCEPT she's left out the part about credit drying up for businesses. How have we, as business owners "failed" in a way to not access further credit? What financial market risk did we take where we have to take our lumps? Answer: NONE. But we are paying a huge price for this fuck-up because we can't get loans anymore, and not because we are the ones who defaulted, the banks have run out of money to loan.

118 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:36:53pm

re: #100 Globular Cluster

We need to examine this further and reach a determination about whether ACORN is truly out of the bill. This is really a disgrace.

The Dems want to continue to financially fuel programs like this that were essentially responsible for this meltdown in the first place. They need to be hauled out one by one and publicly flogged for attempting to perpetuate this disaster.

119 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:37:15pm

re: #107 Mich-again

I don't need to read it all to know this much.

1) If the banks make money, its theirs to keep.

2) If the banks lose money, the US taxpayer foots the bill.

Gambling with house chips. That is the main purpose of the Federal Reserve System. The Fed is a private bank. Its not Federal and there is no Reserve. A perfect name.

While that's not quite true, it's how it works out.

And it's pithy and makes me laugh, so I like it anyway.

120 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:37:16pm

re: #45 reine.de.tout

Michelle Malkin listened in on "a phone conference this evening with anti-bailout conservatives, congressional staffers, and other Hill insiders. With only one exception, the groups and individuals on the call all opposed the bailout in its current form. They also concurred that this deal is worse than the one Paulson proposed — on constitutional, policy, and fiscal grounds."

There are lots of details at her site - she is vehemently anti-bailout; I'm convinced some sort of "bailout" is needed, but I frankly don't know enough to understand what I'm reading.

I don't claim to understand it all either, but I do get the sense that for some this is akin to a debate about global warming, or creationism. Some people see their very reason for existing as being based on certain things they call principles. No amount of logic will change that, because it means they were wrong if they concede, and the details be damned.

121 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:37:29pm

re: #110 Russkilitlover

I am worried about the speed of the implementation and the future (not so distant) ramifications.

We, the middle class, will get soaked but I doubt if we will be needing the bottled water and ammo. We did not need that with the last big stock market drop and I don't think that people will be murdering each other with a 8000 DJIA

122 CommonCents  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:38:00pm

Obama voted presents, not present. When numbers like 700 billion are being thrown around, the Obamamessiah says "wise men, bring me presents".

123 ZinsWolf  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:38:01pm

re: #67 x-wing

Does this mean we don't have to make our mortgage payments anymore?

/


If it does I'm buying a new house tomorrow.

///

Sorry, too late. Had to have bought it on or before March 14, 2008. Mebbe this is the door left open for the "future" defaulters... which should come online after having their house for less than 7 months.. sheesh

124 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:38:24pm

re: #68 itellu3times

Me too.

She raises many points. How good they all are, is hard to say.

But the question is still, are we on the edge of a precipice, or not?

This is incredible.

The Dems since at least the early 1990s pushed Fannie/Freddie to lower their standards for mortgages so they would come into reach of people who couldn't afford them. These bad loans fed a housing bubble that burst earlier this year, eventually leading to a collapse of the lenders themselves.

The bailout shields Fannie/Freddie and other lenders, and the people who never could afford their mortgages in the first place, from consequences to their actions. It doesn't restore standards and sanity to the market, it perpetuates the situation.

125 CofactorMatrix  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:38:24pm

Right after The Zero's elected, I'm going to buy myself a nice car, a huge boat, a big-ass TV and a massive motor home on credit against the equity in my house, quit my job and wait for the government to bail me out

126 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:38:33pm

re: #49 jonathan1984

Normally Michelle's decent enough, but she's way off-base on this. I'm not sure she fundamentally understands how big a problem this is.

I agree with you. This is so huge, most people have no clue just how bad it is.

127 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:38:52pm

Anyone know what the Asian markets are doing now? Should be showing some influence from the "fabulous" bill Congress is set to pass.

128 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:39:12pm

re: #109 Drill_Thrawl

Buy ammo, canned goods, dried beans, and botled watter.

Not beans! No more beans!

That is a joke.

But really, buy a reverse osmosis filtration system and a bicycle pump. It's a much better bet than bottled water, and you can actually pack it up and move it more easily.

129 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:39:17pm

re: #115 realwest

And btw, the real estate economy, save for some bumps in the road, has been on pretty much of an upswing for the past 35 years or so - I think the Taxpayers will ultimately make money off this deal.

When Realwest speaks, people listen!

Thanks for your insight RW.

130 lifeofthemind  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:39:37pm

re: #74 MandyManners

Interesting article about this crisis.

The Cloward-Piven Strategy. It describes their agenda, tactics, and long-term strategy.


The Strategy was first elucidated in the May 2, 1966 issue of The Nation magazine by a pair of radical socialist Columbia University professors, Richard Andrew Cloward and Frances Fox Piven.

Columbia? Obama? Is this part of why he hasn't released his transcripts? His reality, the little we know of it, is more and more like a bad movie.

131 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:39:42pm

re: #124 Peter Verkooijen

Rewarded behavior is repeated behavior.

132 Globular Cluster  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:39:45pm

Must read:

[Link: michellemalkin.com...]

This isn't good.

133 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:39:49pm

re: #72 Coldpizza

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

Gold

134 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:40:02pm

Section 106 (d)-

Revenues of, and proceeds from the sale of troubled assets purchased under this Act, or from the sale, exercise, or surrender of war rants or senior debt instruments acquired under section 113 shall be paid into the general fund of the Treasury for reduction of the public debt.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like we can get some of our money back.

135 doriangrey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:40:30pm

Well good night Lizards... Must go to work tomorrow........Somebody has to pay for this fucking pyramid scam....

136 FloridaAnole  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:40:45pm

Hell's bellsre: #24 Racer X

If I'm reading this correctly, Wall Street firms will be paying for the bailout through insurance premiums? Also establishes the Financial Stability Oversight Board.

Hell's bells! Just what we need -- another money-gobbling Federal Bureaucracy. But great acronym FSOB. But I think I will petition to have it renamed the Syndicated Highrollers Investment Trust.

137 rock86  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:41:07pm

from my reading the secretary determines what a troubled asset is, a little too much power in one place if you ask me

138 arethusa  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:41:07pm

Nighty night lizards. Must teach the kids about law and justice in the morning, so they know what they are before they vanish...

139 Mich-again  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:41:16pm

re: #119 Dianna

Well thank you then. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer or MBA. To me, when a Prof makes it sound really complicated, its a tell they don't really understand the material. And to say that Bill is complicated is an understatement.

140 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:41:27pm

re: #117 Claire

What Michelle says makes sense, EXCEPT she's left out the part about credit drying up for businesses. How have we, as business owners "failed" in a way to not access further credit? What financial market risk did we take where we have to take our lumps? Answer: NONE. But we are paying a huge price for this fuck-up because we can't get loans anymore, and not because we are the ones who defaulted, the banks have run out of money to loan.

Credit comes from institutions with money on hand, like savings and loans, and Insurance co. If they start having to hold more reserve, cash flows out, capital and credit becomes much harder to get. Projects stop, more people get laid off, leading to even less liquidity as everyone reigns in purchases and companies cut expenses to cover that. It can be a real downward spiral. I really do think this "flooring" is needed, as awful as it may seem.

141 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:41:32pm

re: #120 Naso Tang

I don't claim to understand it all either, but I do get the sense that for some this is akin to a debate about global warming, or creationism. Some people see their very reason for existing as being based on certain things they call principles. No amount of logic will change that, because it means they were wrong if they concede, and the details be damned.

Naso - I truly don't know enough to understand most of what I read about this, but what I do understand is this . . . this is really, frighteningly big, with implications that are world-wide.

I'm not sure a "bailout" will work; but something needs to be done, I'm convinced of it, and that's about the extent of my ability to talk about it.

142 Tigger2005  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:41:43pm

Sigh ... I don't know what to think anymore.

I think we do have to keep in mind ... we remain a democracy. An active citizenry CAN get bad legislation reversed. It's hard, but it can be done. This bill is not a Constitutional amendment. It is not set in stone. If it at the very least buys us some time, that's good. Keep voting reform Republican and stay on your elected officials asses and if changes to provisions of this bill need to be made down the road they can be.

143 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:41:52pm

re: #124 Peter Verkooijen

I still do not believe that it was the political pressure to write bad loans that caused the trouble, I think it was greedhead financial types 95%. This was a a bubble, and was not rational.

The Credit Default Swaps are a huge problem, brought down AIG, and they had no law requiring them to be so stupid.

144 CofactorMatrix  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:42:00pm

Get some of our money back? Yeah, right.

145 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:42:16pm

re: #130 lifeofthemind

Columbia? Obama? Is this part of why he hasn't released his transcripts? His reality, the little we know of it, is more and more like a bad movie.

If Sarah Palin is a Disney Movie, Obama is a Bond Villain

146 lifeofthemind  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:42:33pm

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

Well, you can buy the house that I owned, and was foreclosed on. Here's how the folks in DC play games with our lives.

I worked for 15 years at the National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden, Co. Five years ago, this administration cut our budget, said renewable energy research was a waste of taxpayers money. We are the ONLY government lab in the country dedicated to this sort of research.

So, I was laid off, now in my 50's, and could not find a full time job as a computer programmer, which is what I had been doing for over 30 years.

So, things fall apart, and I loose the house.

Two years ago, when a lot of this energy cost problems started to get out of control, DC starts throwing TONS of money at the lab. Politicians on both sides of the aisles are visiting the lab, photo ops, speeches and patting each other on the back.

And now the lab is hiring again. But they have a "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees.

So, the energy crisis, real or imagined, whatever you feel about it, whatever is really the truth, it doesn't matter, but a whole lot of peoples lives changed because DC used us like some sort of beach ball, cutting our budget when they needed to look good, and pissing money on us when they needed to look good.

No fucking thought about the people who everyday, relied on NREL to support thier families.

Bailout my ass.


Sounds like you might have an EEO age discrimination case. Talk to a lawyer.

147 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:42:35pm

re: #77 JeremyR
I'm sorry but I disagree with you (and apparently Michelle Malkin) no bailout would have meant, litererally a bank and credit meltdown. Banks haven't even been loaning to other banks for several days now, no one would have bought those stupid crappy mortgages at almost ANY price cause no one can borrow the money necessary to do that.
And as I said above, all businesses, especially "smaller" businesses use lines of credit from banks to meet their payrolls in case customers and suppliers don't pay "on time" and the businesses would then not be able to pay their employees without those credit lines.
We could argue this FOREVER and it wouldn't change that fact at all.
No liquidity in the capital markets means a true meltdown of the economy. Is this the best bill we could have gotten - without even reading it I can tell you with great confidence NO.
Is it the ONLY bill we probably could have gotten in time to head off the meltdown? Probably yes - both McCain and Obama voted for it.

148 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:42:39pm

re: #115 realwest


And btw, the real estate economy, save for some bumps in the road, has been on pretty much of an upswing for the past 35 years or so - I think the Taxpayers will ultimately make money off this deal.

Realwest - you've probably checked out by now, but appropos your statement, I think a lot depends on whether or not the Gov decides to turn these assets back to the private sector within five years. How confident do you feel that our government will "give back" a cash cow to the public sector. Hell! They're probably busy figuring out how to spend their mortgage windfall as we speak!

149 ParisParamus  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:42:43pm

Your text to link...

They think it's worse than CRAP over there...

150 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:43:52pm

re: #127 Russkilitlover

Asian Markets Wobble Ahead of US Bailout Plan Vote
[Link: www.cnbc.com...]

151 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:44:03pm

re: #148 Russkilitlover

Realwest - you've probably checked out by now, but appropos your statement, I think a lot depends on whether or not the Gov decides to turn these assets back to the private sector within five years. How confident do you feel that our government will "give back" a cash cow to the public PRIVATE sector. Hell! They're probably busy figuring out how to spend their mortgage windfall as we speak!

Damn! PRIVATE!

152 jaunte  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:44:20pm

re: #115 realwest

Good evening realwest; I agree with you on everything except that last point. If money is to be made eventually, there is now an awful lot of government between it and the taxpayers that are going to fund the bailout.

153 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:44:28pm

re: #137 rock86

from my reading the secretary determines what a troubled asset is, a little too much power in one place if you ask me

There's a provision for an Inspector General.

154 newsjunkie_ky  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:44:56pm

re: #106 x-wing

The jackass sai he would only go back to D.C if his vote is needed. This guy wont take a stand on anything, and he's leading in the polls.

/I'm about to throw-up.


That's what gets me. The One never actually takes a clear cut stand.
There are no do overs as POTUS or passing the buck.
Lord, help us.

155 Optimizer  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:45:31pm

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

Yikes! So what did you end up doing? I thought programmers were supposed to be in demand...

156 Mich-again  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:45:41pm

re: #147 realwest

I put more trust in your analysis of all of this than from any of the talking head experts who will be on TV promoting this or demonizing it. Thank you for chiming in on the subject. I will sleep a little better thanks to your posts here tonight.

157 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:45:48pm

There are caps to this, President has to ask congress for each add'l 100 B spent after the first 250.

158 ParisParamus  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:45:54pm

Can't someone at least, figuratively, punch Barney Frank in the face? I hope, if/when this thing is signed, McCain goes after the Dems; explains that because his party is the minority, he had to compromise, but really goes after Frank and Dodd, et al!

159 Ceemack  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:46:03pm

I skimmed the whole thing looking for the one thing that absolutely, positively has to be part of any bailout deal: repealing the requirement that banks consider factors other than basic creditworthiness when considering mortgage applications.

That Clinton-era requirement started the whole sub-prime mortgage business, and so is the root cause of the entire mess.

We're supposed to pay $700 billion for a bailout (the initial amount is down to $250 billion, but the provisions of the deal allow the amount to go as high as $700 billion), without actually fixing the source of the whole problem--the subprime meltdown, the housing bubble, the whole thing?

And me--who didn't buy a house because he couldn't afford one without a ridiculous sub-prime mortgage--or my friends--who bought early on, using standard mortgages, and didn't cash out their equity with seconds when prices started climing--get to foot the bill for decades to come?

I don't #@$!#!%! think so.

Without fixing that, I say no deal on a bailout. Let the whole damned thing collapse, if that's what it takes.

160 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:46:22pm

re: #93 experiencedtraveller

You and MM may oppose the deal but I will list a few Americans who will benefit from the deal.

1. Anyone with anything in the stock market.
2. Anyone with or hoping to have a 401k.
3. Anyone with or hoping to have a 529.

...

Right, the f***in babyboomers who feel they are entitled to an easy retirement, the spoiled generation that has always had everything handed to them on a plate, the generation that has been leeching of their parents and will stick the bill to their children and grandchildren.

If you worked hard and built real wealth on anything other than paper you shouldn't have anything to worry about. Have you?

FYI, I'm 36, renting in NY, I have no assets, trying to bootstrap a company the old-fashioned way.

161 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:46:24pm

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

162 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:46:32pm

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

Well, you can buy the house that I owned, and was foreclosed on. Here's how the folks in DC play games with our lives.

I worked for 15 years at the National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden, Co. Five years ago, this administration cut our budget, said renewable energy research was a waste of taxpayers money. We are the ONLY government lab in the country dedicated to this sort of research.

So, I was laid off, now in my 50's, and could not find a full time job as a computer programmer, which is what I had been doing for over 30 years.

So, things fall apart, and I loose the house.

Two years ago, when a lot of this energy cost problems started to get out of control, DC starts throwing TONS of money at the lab. Politicians on both sides of the aisles are visiting the lab, photo ops, speeches and patting each other on the back.

And now the lab is hiring again. But they have a "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees.

So, the energy crisis, real or imagined, whatever you feel about it, whatever is really the truth, it doesn't matter, but a whole lot of peoples lives changed because DC used us like some sort of beach ball, cutting our budget when they needed to look good, and pissing money on us when they needed to look good.

No fucking thought about the people who everyday, relied on NREL to support thier families.

Bailout my ass.


Someone upthread mentioned EEO, and that's a good route to check out; but I don't understand this "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would they not want those very people who already have experience and are familiar with their operations? That makes no sense. Suggest if you have time and energy you check that out further.

163 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:46:40pm

re: #136 FloridaAnole

Hell's bells

Hell's bells! Just what we need -- another money-gobbling Federal Bureaucracy. But great acronym FSOB. But I think I will petition to have it renamed the Syndicated Highrollers Investment Trust.

Was working on one, but decided to ding you up instead!

164 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:46:56pm

re: #147 realwest

I'm sorry but I disagree with you (and apparently Michelle Malkin) no bailout would have meant, litererally a bank and credit meltdown. Banks haven't even been loaning to other banks for several days now, no one would have bought those stupid crappy mortgages at almost ANY price cause no one can borrow the money necessary to do that.
And as I said above, all businesses, especially "smaller" businesses use lines of credit from banks to meet their payrolls in case customers and suppliers don't pay "on time" and the businesses would then not be able to pay their employees without those credit lines.
We could argue this FOREVER and it wouldn't change that fact at all.
No liquidity in the capital markets means a true meltdown of the economy. Is this the best bill we could have gotten - without even reading it I can tell you with great confidence NO.
Is it the ONLY bill we probably could have gotten in time to head off the meltdown? Probably yes - both McCain and Obama voted for it.

Exactly- and the majority of Americans work for small businesses. If my bosses can't cover my paycheck- I'm screwed. I'm working for nothing but a worthless piece of paper.

165 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:47:07pm

re: #149 ParisParamus

Your text to link...

They think it's worse than CRAP over there...

Well I hope the shit sandwich works anyway. I just don't want amnesty for those who created this disaster whether their names be, Dodd, Obama or Bush.

166 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:47:12pm

re: #134 Sharmuta

Section 106 (d)-

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like we can get some of our money back.

It means a reduction in the public debt, which (ought to mean) an eventual reduction in your taxes. What it really means is a slush fund for social spending, unless we find a way to insist that the money actually come back.

I don't happen to like the national debt; I also happen to think that most of what's called "entitlements" are no such thing, but charity, and that they should be gradually phased out. If the profit from this bailout were to be used towards reducing the debt for entitlements, and gently phasing them out, I'd be a very happy taxpayer.

Of course, that would assume we could ever trust a politician with money.

Which, of course, we can't.

167 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:47:39pm

RW's right. What kills economies is lack of confidence, and a short stint of no liquidity can lead to that. This will stop that.

168 Steffan  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:48:06pm

re: #92 Drill_Thrawl

If this bill is so darn important then why is it that...?

1. It has it taken so long to get it to the floor when the Dems like it and they have control?

2. The Dems feel they could load it with crap. (Acorn, unions on a board...)?

3. It will take TWO MORE DAYS to get through the Senate?

4. Issues such as CRA, CDS's, Naked shorts and incompitent Fed, Treasury, and SEC actions are not even basicly address.

This all leads me to believe it is a total sham.

The catch is that the Dems know it's a poison pill. If they pass it without Republican shills to share the blame, their political careers are toast. They literally don't have the cojones to pass it on their own.

After wading through that document, all I can say is that if I was a CPA, I'd be submitting a resume to the Treasury Department. If this sucker passes, they're going to need a lot of warm bodies to help administer the mess.

169 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:48:12pm

re: #146 lifeofthemind

Sounds like you might have an EEO age discrimination case. Talk to a lawyer.

I looked into that. Do you know who makes money from age discrimination cases? The lawyers. They rarely win, and you're still in hock for their fees.

170 HD Woman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:48:20pm

re: #108 Ron Bacardi

I'm currently taking a course on legislative drafting, which means I'll soon be able to write bills like these..... >_>

lol but will you be able to understand it when you get done? And if the answer is yes, you have to retake the course.

171 reine.de.tout  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:48:30pm

re: #167 Thanos

RW's right. What kills economies is lack of confidence, and a short stint of no liquidity can lead to that. This will stop that.

OK. Now that's an explanation I can understand.

172 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:48:42pm

what is meaning of this part?

Secretary to encourage the servicers of the
12 underlying mortgages, considering net present value to the
13 taxpayer, to take advantage of the +HOPE for Home14
owners Program under section 257 of the National Hous15
ing Act or other available programs to minimize fore16
closures.+[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

pg 25

anyone know anything about Hope?

173 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:49:11pm

re: #166 Dianna

Well- this is the time for te American people to start really holding these politicians' feet to the fire. We should always do such, but perhaps this will be a wake-up call.

174 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:49:12pm

The bill does include increasing the national debt, so this money will be borrowed, not printed.

I am against that, if it can be avoided.

If it can't be avoided, ... hmm, ...

175 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:49:13pm

re: #143 itellu3times

... The Credit Default Swaps are a huge problem, brought down AIG, and they had no law requiring them to be so stupid.

All these "innovations" were just following the market. Banks had to follow to stay competitive. It was the political pressure on/from Fannie/Freddie that put the whole thing out of wack.

176 FloridaAnole  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:49:26pm

re: #163 Mel Lono

Thank you!

177 x-wing  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:49:30pm

re: #123 ZinsWolf

Sorry, too late. Had to have bought it on or before March 14, 2008. Mebbe this is the door left open for the "future" defaulters... which should come online after having their house for less than 7 months.. sheesh


These Mortgages have been blowing up for the last 2 years, and they were still graniting them in March of this year. Grrrrrrrrreat.

178 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:49:30pm

re: #161 realwest

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

The Bill has been posted online since about 3:00 PST. Posted by Congress. I don't have the link, but I have printed the entire 116 page Bill and have been reading it for the last several hours.

179 Maximu§  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:49:54pm

re: #112 Dianna

That was passed by law at least six years ago.

A minimum payment - assuming one is not an idjit and spends yet more - will pay the credit card off in two years.

Ok, Ok now I know....not sure why people marked me down for wanting lower intrest rates on credit cards.

180 Killian Bundy  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:50:19pm

re: #154 newsjunkie_ky

That's what gets me. The One never actually takes a clear cut stand.

Why should he?

/as of today, he's opened up a commanding lead, well outside the margin of error

181 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:50:33pm

re: #159 Ceemack

I suspect we will have follow-ons to this, remember it's emergency legislation. On the bright side, if they do this you might be able to buy a home cheap. If they don't do this, nobody will be able to get credit. That's the point at which foreigners start buying our institutions for pennies on the dollar. We really don't need that.

182 solomonpanting  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:50:37pm

re: #127 Russkilitlover

Anyone know what the Asian markets are doing now? Should be showing some influence from the "fabulous" bill Congress is set to pass.

Here's one look.

183 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:50:39pm

re: #161 realwest

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

I just don't see how the donks just don't go and spend it all if it does "make" money, RW. We will foot the bill, not share the wealth. When Obama is Pres with Reid and Pelosi in charge he will find plenty of people to give it to. Might even get the UN involved.

A very big thank you is in order to the geniuses who "sat out" the last election to "teach" the GOP a lesson
/

184 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:50:42pm

re: #167 Thanos

RW's right. What kills economies is lack of confidence, and a short stint of no liquidity can lead to that. This will stop that.

Except that our "confidence" needs to now be with government, not the private sector or markets. That makes me much less confident.

185 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:50:43pm

re: #120 Naso Tang

I don't claim to understand it all either, but I do get the sense that for some this is akin to a debate about global warming, or creationism. Some people see their very reason for existing as being based on certain things they call principles. No amount of logic will change that, because it means they were wrong if they concede, and the details be damned.

Republican Platform (standing on our conservative principles): "We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself. We believe in the free market as the best tool to sustained prosperity and opportunity for all.”

186 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:50:56pm

re: #172 willowone

The fox link is not the correct version.

187 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:50:56pm

re: #152 jaunte
Yes my friend there is; but the US Treasury has done this in the past and iirc, averaged a 16% profit on the money loaned to Chrysler and others.
And as far as I could tell there is no time limit on how long the Feds can hold any assets - especially mortgages, so if they hold 'em long enough, I'm confident the government will make profits on all or almost all of 'em.
Whether or not the taxpayer sees any of it I sincerly doubt, except to the extent the Government uses any profit instead of raising taxes.

188 lifeofthemind  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:51:02pm

Good night ladies.

189 gmsc  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:51:11pm

re: #72 Coldpizza

What Stocks should I buy in the morning? Anyone?

Tomorrow morning? None. If you have the money, shorting could be good this week.

However, as the plunge slows down, I'd look into anything with solid fundamentals for a good long-term hold (20 years or more). I've been cursing myself for missing Apple's recent rise, and I'll be looking into their prices and fundamentals this week.

190 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:51:28pm

re: #111 merrytexas

Add into the equation the idea of assured market instability if this deal did not pass.

Add into the equation the fear that our enemies may take this opportunity to launch an economic attack.

This is a reasonable deal.

Earlier #66 Russkilitlover said, "Do no harm." This is an apt medical observation.

The American financial market has a heart-attack financial paper crises in its investment houses. This will reverberate. The American economy remains fundamentally sound so the government proposes a remedy via this cooperative deal.

We should all wish this treatment good luck.

191 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:51:35pm

re: #184 Russkilitlover

Except that our "confidence" needs to now be with government, not the private sector or markets. That makes me much less confident.

No- my confidence has to be with the bank my bosses have my paycheck in.

192 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:51:44pm

re: #182 solomonpanting

Here's one look.

Thanks! Not a whole lot of confidence displayed in downward graphs!

193 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:51:46pm

re: #156 Mich-again
Thank you Mich - that's realwest: sleeping pill for the lizards! LOL!

194 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:51:57pm

Maybe we're going to fall now, for better or worse.

Just a thought.

If it happens, I'll probably lose 90% of what I've saved.

But it may just be in the stars at this point.

Just a thought.

Should I cash it out now, buy gold and canned goods, guns and ammo? Are property values in the mountains depressed right now?

195 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:52:15pm

re: #147 realwest

I'm sorry but I disagree with you (and apparently Michelle Malkin) no bailout would have meant, litererally a bank and credit meltdown. Banks haven't even been loaning to other banks for several days now, no one would have bought those stupid crappy mortgages at almost ANY price cause no one can borrow the money necessary to do that.

We sold a spec house one week ago. The usual delays in closing but I was sweating something mean waiting for the check to clear last Monday. I had visions of the buyers moved in and the bank named on the check closing doors the same day.

I haven't heard anything yet, but I am wondering what has happened with legitimate mortgage applications this past week.

196 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:52:37pm

re: #139 Mich-again

Well thank you then. I'm an engineer, not a lawyer or MBA. To me, when a Prof makes it sound really complicated, its a tell they don't really understand the material. And to say that Bill is complicated is an understatement.

It's not that I entirely agree with you. It's that, no matter what, in the end, no matter what is done, you and I are screwed.

The problem isn't this bailout.

The problem is the attitudes that produced the series of problems that produced the legislation that produced this bailout. The grasshoppers get to punish the ants; and it's not going to stop, because even the ants don't seem to understand that they don't deserve what's happening to them.

We would be better off if every year we contributed to a huge charitable fund that was doled out without the slightest merit, provided the people qualified to benefit had done not one blessed thing to help themselves, unless it was by accident. This largesse would be dropped upon the designated recipients at Christmas, with much rejoicing. Then we'd forget about them for another year.

I suspect it would do more good than all the social programs we've ever instituted.

197 x-wing  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:52:41pm

re: #158 ParisParamus

Can't someone at least, figuratively, punch Barney Frank in the face? I hope, if/when this thing is signed, McCain goes after the Dems; explains that because his party is the minority, he had to compromise, but really goes after Frank and Dodd, et al!


I'm hoping that was why Mac laid back in the debate. Just get this bill passed and then drop the hammer on those douchebage.

198 Dan G.  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:52:47pm

"[...] and for other purposes" Open-ended much?

199 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:53:36pm

[Link: www2.nationalreview.com...]

10 taxpayer, to take advantage of the HOPE for Home11
owners Program under section 257 of the National Hous12
ing Act or other available programs to minimize fore13
closures. In addition, the Secretary may use loan guaran14
tees and credit enhancements to facilitate loan modifica15
tions to prevent avoidable foreclosures

still there

200 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:53:38pm

re: #168 Steffan

The catch is that the Dems know it's a poison pill. If they pass it without Republican shills to share the blame, their political careers are toast. They literally don't have the cojones to pass it on their own.

Exactly. They won't pass it alone because it will be political suicide. It already is and they want republicans to shoulder the blame.

201 solomonpanting  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:53:54pm

re: #192 Russkilitlover

Thanks! Not a whole lot of confidence displayed in downward graphs!

Don't shoot the messenger.

202 Tigger2005  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:54:44pm

Like I said. It's not a perfect bill, but it is not a Constitutional amendment either. It is not set in stone. The main thing right now is to restore liquidity to the financial markets. If something in the bill doesn't work, or something needs to be added, changes can be made, yes, even after it is signed into law. Would it be hard to get some of those changes made? Yes, especially if people are benefiting from the bill as it is now written. But the citizenry has to wake up and treat this like a war, because it is. The U.S. citizenry made enormous sacrifices to win WW2. Now, we are fighting much of our own government and some of our fellow citizens. All I can say is, it will be a hell of a lot easier for us to fight if we're not in the middle of a depression as well.


re: #159 Ceemack

I skimmed the whole thing looking for the one thing that absolutely, positively has to be part of any bailout deal: repealing the requirement that banks consider factors other than basic creditworthiness when considering mortgage applications.

That Clinton-era requirement started the whole sub-prime mortgage business, and so is the root cause of the entire mess.

We're supposed to pay $700 billion for a bailout (the initial amount is down to $250 billion, but the provisions of the deal allow the amount to go as high as $700 billion), without actually fixing the source of the whole problem--the subprime meltdown, the housing bubble, the whole thing?

And me--who didn't buy a house because he couldn't afford one without a ridiculous sub-prime mortgage--or my friends--who bought early on, using standard mortgages, and didn't cash out their equity with seconds when prices started climing--get to foot the bill for decades to come?

I don't #@$!#!%! think so.

Without fixing that, I say no deal on a bailout. Let the whole damned thing collapse, if that's what it takes.

203 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:55:06pm

re: #157 Thanos

There are caps to this, President has to ask congress for each add'l 100 B spent after the first 250.

Wrong. There are provisions whereby Congress need not act and the additional bailouts are automatic.

204 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:55:16pm

OK not to sweat -- HOPE is not HELP or ACORN, HOPE is an FHA program.

I think the intent here is to get FMAC & GMMA loans redone as FHA

205 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:55:45pm

re: #160 Peter Verkooijen

FYI, I'm 36, renting in NY, I have no assets, trying to bootstrap a company the old-fashioned way.

Then perhaps you should ask for assistance from those who have passed your way before.

206 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:55:49pm

re: #204 Thanos

thank you , ! really i was indeed starting a light mist

207 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:56:00pm

re: #190 experiencedtraveller

Add into the equation the idea of assured market instability if this deal did not pass.

Add into the equation the fear that our enemies may take this opportunity to launch an economic attack.

So we should pass the bill due to "fear" of what MIGHT happen if we don't? Whether it's a good deal or not? Isn't that fearmongering?

208 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:56:02pm

re: #162 reine.de.tout

Someone upthread mentioned EEO, and that's a good route to check out; but I don't understand this "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would they not want those very people who already have experience and are familiar with their operations? That makes no sense. Suggest if you have time and energy you check that out further.

Because, they don't like you to have all that history. NREL is run by a government contractor, Midwest Industries. It is common practice to "phase" employees out do to age and health reasons. I know that is not legal, but prove it. I was phased out due to budget, but because I was there for 15 years and now in my 50's, they managed to kill two corporate "policies" with one stone. There were a lot of younger and less tenured employees in out center (IT) but I fitted that profile of people they liked to find ways of getting rid of.

Before I worked for NREL, I worked for an employment law firm, just a few blocks away from the lab. I worked for the lawyers for 3 years. I went to them, they looked over the matter and told me, I'd never win. The NREL lawyers had their ducks lined up really nice.

So, as I say, I've looked into the legalities of all this, and yes, they probably did something wrong, but no, there is now chance in hell that I could break the back of these folks.

I was making 80 thou a year, now I make 18 thou in the theatre business. I have sent out over 800 resumes in the last 4 years and not ONE bite.

209 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:56:05pm

re: #185 merrytexas

Republican Platform (standing on our conservative principles): "We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself. We believe in the free market as the best tool to sustained prosperity and opportunity for all.”

Exactly my point. Thank you.

210 jonathan1984  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:56:16pm

re: #127 Russkilitlover

Dollar's up, oil's down.

211 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:56:39pm

re: #199 willowone

I'm not an economist, but I would think a flood of foreclosed homes no one can buy would not be helpful. A flood of more defaulted mortgages would be harmful.

212 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:56:48pm

re: #202 Tigger2005

My husband, a business prof, made the same point. What the gov't gives the Gov't can take away or renegotiate to prevent windfalls for the guilty.

213 Ceemack  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:57:17pm

re: #181 Thanos

I suspect we will have follow-ons to this, remember it's emergency legislation. On the bright side, if they do this you might be able to buy a home cheap. If they don't do this, nobody will be able to get credit. That's the point at which foreigners start buying our institutions for pennies on the dollar. We really don't need that.

If it's not part of the initial bailout legislation, it won't happen. The need for the bailout is the only thing that can force enough Democrats in Congress to go along with it.

And no, if this passes I won't be buying a house cheap. Currently it takes a minimum of $400K where I live to buy a detached SFR in anything other than gang territory. That's after the declines we've already had. Provisions in the bailout are aimed at halting foreclosures, which more than anything else is what's been driving home prices down, so prices wouldn't drop a whole lot more.

And if we don't fix the requirement that banks issue sub-prime mortgages, why won't we be right back in this mess down the road?

Without a fix for the root cause, we're just writing a blank check with lots and lots of zeroes.

214 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:57:38pm

I say proceed with this pig.

The main thing right now is to restore confidence in our financial markets. We can tweak this thing once McCain gets in; if Obama wins we are all screwed anyway.

215 stevieray  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:57:38pm

re: #210 jonathan1984

Dollar's up, oil's down.

A positive sign.

216 jonathan1984  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:57:43pm

re: #207 merrytexas

It's not "fear"; it's a good, rational expectation of the costs of doing nothing. Big difference.

217 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:58:01pm

re: #204 Thanos

OK not to sweat -- HOPE is not HELP or ACORN, HOPE is an FHA program.

I think the intent here is to get FMAC & GMMA loans redone as FHA

I'm not sure that's the link you intended.

218 HD Woman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:58:22pm

Sen. Dodd's Shot at Redemption
[Link: online.wsj.com...]
For Sen. Dodd, the bailout plan could give him not just the prominence that he unsuccessfully sought on the campaign trail, but also a chance at political redemption.
Over the years, Sen. Dodd has not only struggled to get out of his father's shadow but also to restore the Dodd family's name; the elder Sen. Dodd was censured by the Senate for personal use of campaign funds.

I would have the headline read: Sen. Dodd - redemption or shot?
I don't know what knob got polished where, but WSJ gave me a laugh, so I will wish you all a goodnight.

219 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:58:23pm

re: #159 Ceemack

If a whole bunch of conservative pension funds wouldn't go "poof!", I'd agree.

Pension funds trusted Freddie and Fannie.

Granny's pension is more important than my irritation.

220 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:59:10pm

re: #213 Ceemack

You can buy a great house in Missouri or Kansas cheap, there's not such a gang problem here. Why I left the left coast years ago.

221 Drill_Thrawl  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:59:15pm

re: #161 realwest

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

It's very simple. The Dems love it. The R's hate. That tells me all I need to know.

I also do not believe that this will "fix" anything. We are still going to crash it will just be slower and softer now.

222 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:59:21pm

re: #159 Ceemack

I was listening to a radio news program today (local CBS station on Am). The host was asking an "expert" if the policies of the past 30 years have led us to this. The "expert" said, "the de-regulation under Reagan and continued exponentially under Bush" have led to this situation.

I almost sent my fist through my car radio. The bad policies began under CARTER and were EXPANDED under CLINTON!

223 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:59:24pm

re: #211 Sharmuta
I wish i understood this type of language.

224 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 8:59:53pm

And who ever posted that they thought computer programmers were a needed profession, well, yes. In the 80's and 90's, we were a special breed. Since the turn of the century, every other kid out of high school is heading off to take IT classes in college. Now, programmers are a dime a dozen.

225 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:00:10pm

Whether or not you think this "bailout" in its currently proposed state is a necessary evil, I am certain you can be assured of one thing - it will indeed be a "crap sandwich". As we know, "bi-partisan" cooperation on The Hill these days essentially means Republicans caving in to Democrat demands. I can guarantee you that this plan will be rife with murky provisions and extremely questionable judgment, and that it will reek of neo-socialism. This is a dark period in American history about to unfold before our very eyes.

226 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:00:26pm

re: #160 Peter Verkooijen
Good one Peter - it's not bad enough that the Dems want to start a class warfare between poor/middle class and the ""rich" but now you want to start a generational war?
FYI - the Baby Boomers - those who came into politics during Vietnam, have in fact been the generation that has paid THE MOST in Social Security and Medicare (and are only now starting to draw on it) is the Generation that started IRA's, 401's and union and employer pension plans and has, generally speaking been far more PRODUCTIVE than any generation since, including YOURS. We started business, expanded existing businesses and for the most part were able to keep the United States out of any godawful WARS that killed as many American soldiers in a month in Vietnam as were killed in any year since Vietnam.
Thank you very fucking much.

227 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:01:05pm

re: #179 Maximu§

It's all right.

Given those ads I hear every day, trying to tell people that the eeeeevillllll credit card companies are to blame for their self-indulgence (and the marketing departments do deserve at least some blame), it's not a surprise that folks don't understand what their minimum payment actually means.

228 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:01:09pm

re: #217 Sharmuta

I'm not sure that's the link you intended.

You are right

Here's the HOPE FHA program, it's to get people stuck in ARM's into a reasonable FHA loan. Better alternative to burning down the house. Some money is better than no money sometimes.

229 Steffan  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:01:39pm

re: #140 Thanos

Credit comes from institutions with money on hand, like savings and loans, and Insurance co. If they start having to hold more reserve, cash flows out, capital and credit becomes much harder to get. Projects stop, more people get laid off, leading to even less liquidity as everyone reigns in purchases and companies cut expenses to cover that. It can be a real downward spiral. I really do think this "flooring" is needed, as awful as it may seem.

I have to agree. From what I've been reading, liquidity of the market is the key issue. If they don't get the cover from this bill, "illiquidity" will force banks and lending institutions to have capital reserves up front to operate.... and a lot of them don't. We'd be looking at Black Thursday, squared.

Because Paulson went public with his doomsaying, Congress has to do something. It almost doesn't matter what they do, as long as they do something and are seen to be doing something.

230 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:02:33pm

re: #209 Naso Tang

Thankfully, Republicans (true fiscally conservative Republicans) standing on their principles of free market economy have yet to be proven wrong.

231 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:02:46pm

re: #228 Thanos

alright than that would make sense with next bit;(2) MODIFICATIONS.—In the case of a residen14
tial mortgage loan, modifications made under para15
graph (1) may include—
16 (A) reduction in interest rates;
17 (B) reduction of loan principal; and
18 (C) other similar modifications.
19 (

232 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:02:48pm

re: #185 merrytexas

Well, that's all very well, except that the problem here was caused by the government, and has been passed off to the private sector, and the pension funds.

Go figure.

233 West Coast Freedom  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:03:11pm

Liberal Socialist Hell on Earth

234 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:03:20pm

re: #228 Thanos

You are right

Here's the HOPE FHA program, it's to get people stuck in ARM's into a reasonable FHA loan. Better alternative to burning down the house. Some money is better than no money sometimes.

That's what I was thinking.

235 stevieray  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:03:31pm

re: #214 Racer X

I say proceed with this pig.

The main thing right now is to restore confidence in our financial markets. We can tweak this thing once McCain gets in; if Obama wins we are all screwed anyway.

The imperfections in the bill give McCain a chance to talk about his rejected oversight plan and hammer the Democrats as well. People instinctively know that continuing to lend money to the poor is a bad idea... the fact that this doesn't address that issue gives McCain a good reason to pound that point home. He will pick up independents if he does.

A perfect bill wouldn't help McCain.

236 Tigger2005  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:03:52pm

re: #212 SpartanWoman

My husband, a business prof, made the same point. What the gov't gives the Gov't can take away or renegotiate to prevent windfalls for the guilty.

Thank you. I think people need to stop seeing this bill as the Ten Commandments or something. ALMOST ANY LAW CAN BE CHANGED OR REPEALED. It is up to us to not give up and keep fighting. The defeatist comments I hear from some are sickening. Our fathers and grandfathers and great and great-great grandfathers left their farms and businesses and homes and families and DIED to save this country. What's being asked of US is that we become much more active in the political process, that we work overtime to persuade our friends and neighbors and others that free markets really do work and socialism is not the answer, that we elect reformist conservative politicians and stay on their asses to make sure they do what we expect of them. If that's too much for us to handle, then we are not worthy of the sacrifices our forefathers (and foremothers) made for us.

237 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:04:16pm

re: #178 Russkilitlover
"I have printed the entire 116 page Bill and have been reading it for the last several hours."
Thank you for taking/having the time to read it and for proving my point.

238 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:04:32pm

re: #207 merrytexas

It is not fearmongering. It is a reasonable investment in a commercial infrastructure that has performed very well and should continue to serve well in the future.

Like any infrastructure it occasionally needs attention and maintenance best provided via democratic governance. Which we are witnessing.

239 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:04:46pm

re: #233 West Coast Freedom

What is? Explain what your statement is about, becuase it doesn't say anything as posted.

240 spidly  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:04:58pm

re: #70 Claire

What if housing prices keep dropping? How are they going to re-coup the money they shelled out for these mortgages? Do they keep them indefinitely till the house price reaches back up to the original level? What if that takes 15 years?

I totally don't understand the ins and outs of this-

part of the problem with banks holding these dogs. under the mark to market law bank can only value these assets at current market value, not at maturity. this bill gives authority to suspend and sets up some blue ribbon commission to look at changing the rule permanently, but doe not repeal outright. if they would just get rid of that rule it'd help a lot - financial inst could more accurately state assets

241 MandyManners  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:06:02pm

re: #161 realwest

WHOA! This is truly incredible to see at LGF. Charles posted the PDF format of the bill less than 45 minutes ago, and I sincerely doubt that anyone has actually read this entire bill in that time frame and yet we who usually demand back up or support for postions posters take, have suspended that for this bill and are emoting with our hearts (Hey, ya know if I had Michelle Malkin's money, maybe I wouldn't be so concerned either) and not with our brains over this.

Someone posted the link in the previous thread. We've been reading and chewing it for a while.

242 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:06:44pm

I think some here are confusing defeatism with healthy cynicism, IMO.

243 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:06:53pm

re: #222 Russkilitlover

I was listening to a radio news program today (local CBS station on Am). The host was asking an "expert" if the policies of the past 30 years have led us to this. The "expert" said, "the de-regulation under Reagan and continued exponentially under Bush" have led to this situation.

I almost sent my fist through my car radio. The bad policies began under CARTER and were EXPANDED under CLINTON!

Woe be unto us ... we have been taken over. Will the power of the internet be enough to pull us out?

244 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:07:26pm

re: #232 Dianna

Well, that's all very well, except that the problem here was caused by the government, and has been passed off to the private sector, and the pension funds.

I think both are culpable. The government said it was OK to do risky loans; lenders could have steered clear of them. Some jumped on them like a hog to grits.

245 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:07:44pm

re: #238 experiencedtraveller

It is not fearmongering. It is a reasonable investment in a commercial infrastructure that has performed very well and should continue to serve well in the future.

Like any infrastructure it occasionally needs attention and maintenance best provided via democratic governance. Which we are witnessing.

This is not democratic governance, it is socialistic governance, period. How can it be called anything else. It is certainly not free market. Hell, Hamas was elected by "democratic governance" but those folks are not working as a democracy in any sense of the concept.

247 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:07:56pm

Is something happening in the financial world? Everything's fine, right?

Whistle, whistle, whistle.

248 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:07:56pm

re: #237 realwest

"I have printed the entire 116 page Bill and have been reading it for the last several hours."
Thank you for taking/having the time to read it and for proving my point.

Believe me, it's not fun reading! I'd rather be reading anything else! And what I'm reading does not have a satisfying ending, IMHO. I guess it's a leap of faith type thing. Do we have faith that our federal government will dispose of their new piggy-bank in accordance with the Bill's provisions? We may be singing this same song 2 years from now. And in the meantime, home prices will stagnate and 401k's will go into snooze.

249 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:08:07pm

[Link: www.rules.house.gov...]

I'm curious do all the lawmakers have their own?

250 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:08:40pm

re: #183 SpartanWoman
Yep, "A very big thank you is in order to the geniuses who "sat out" the last election to "teach" the GOP a lesson" they sure did teach us a lesson. And I'm afraid it's a lesson that will have to be relearned after this coming election.
For our system of goverment to work it requires an informed electorate, not just people who pull the lever on whether or not there's a (D) or an (R) after their names or how well they dress, how young or old they are or appear to be.
WE the people had better damn well wake up soon or "America" won't be left standing.

251 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:08:43pm

re: #226 realwest

... FYI - the Baby Boomers - those who came into politics during Vietnam, have in fact been the generation that has paid THE MOST in Social Security and Medicare (and are only now starting to draw on it) ...

Perhaps in dollar amount, because the boomers have the large numbers and these entitlements were expanded since the 1960s. They're still underfunded and my generation will end up paying for them, much more than we will ever get out of the system. By the time the boomers are finally dead and buried these programs will be long bankrupt.

252 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:09:20pm

re: #244 Racer X

I think both are culpable. The government said it was OK to do risky loans; lenders could have steered clear of them. Some jumped on them like a hog to grits.

Some did but many institutions were cowed into this.

And those who signed for loans in order to flip properties just added fuel to the fire.

253 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:09:31pm

re: #224 Walter L. Newton

And who ever posted that they thought computer programmers were a needed profession, well, yes. In the 80's and 90's, we were a special breed. Since the turn of the century, every other kid out of high school is heading off to take IT classes in college. Now, programmers are a dime a dozen.

When I started it was Cobol and Fortran, and few others that differed mostly in syntax. Easy to learn them all (without kids, wife and mortgage to distract).

Now it is so specialized that one really needs to find a niche to be good at. Like creating nifty blog systems on the fly, for example

I was in software programming, systems, sales, etc for 30 years or so. I thought I would see if I could get back in at the bottom and picked Python to learn. Got a 12 inch stack of books and software clogging up my PC, but all I got out of it was a crappy mandelbrot program and a headache.

One needs to start this stuff early and burn out early these days. Churn and burn as they say, which is why I'm in real estate investing.

/joy joy

254 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:09:50pm

re: #248 Russkilitlover

no faith with an Obama win.

More with McCain.

255 Tigger2005  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:10:08pm
256 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:10:28pm

re: #230 merrytexas

Thankfully, Republicans (true fiscally conservative Republicans) standing on their principles of free market economy have yet to be proven wrong.

and no doubt they will always think so ;)

257 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:10:47pm

re: #185 merrytexas
That would be a GREAT plank in a party's platform if that party didn't also think it was cool to have the Government REQUIRE that Free Market loan money to folks the Free Market KNOWS can't pay it back.

258 Ceemack  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:11:14pm

re: #220 Thanos

You can buy a great house in Missouri or Kansas cheap, there's not such a gang problem here. Why I left the left coast years ago.


This is my home.

What's your theory here, Einstein? That I should abandon my family and move to...Kansas? So the next time my mother has a heart attack, she's on her own?

I'm not some carpetbagger from out of state. I was born here, and I've lived here all my life. I shouldn't have to leave because of Bill Clinton and Janet Reno--or Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid, Chris Dodd and Barney Frank.

259 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:11:19pm

re: #232 Dianna

The problem was CAUSED by the government? Of course it wasn't caused by GREED was it? People who wanted more than they could afford? Lenders who used predatory lending? No. Let's blame the government.

/sarc

260 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:11:24pm

It looks like a screw job, like one from those old black and white gangster movies where we are being offered a deal we can't refuse. They have a gun to our head and knife at our gut.

We are screwed no matter what they do.

Worse, those Dem bastards who did this to us will get away with it not just scott-free, but be able claim credit for "fixing" the problem that they created in the first place.

I saw a little bit of today's Dem Press Conference.

Reid is a shit. A real bastard.

Even worse than that, I don't know a way out.

No good choices.

Choose door number one, the ravenously hungry pack of wolves, or Door number two, the crazed and hydrophobic Grizzly Bear.

6 to 1 and half a dozen to the other.

If this monstrosity passes, we could all be laid off just after Christmas, If it fails, we could all find the doors to our offices shuttered by the end of the week.

Screwed every which way but loose.

Don't like it, either way.

261 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:11:53pm

re: #254 willowone

no faith with an Obama win.

More with McCain.

Spot on. BHO will hang on to this mortgage cash cow and will seek to expand. McCain, probably less so. This election is SO important - socialism or capitalism. It's really as simple as that.

262 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:12:34pm

re: #245 Walter L. Newton

This is not democratic governance, it is socialistic governance, period. How can it be called anything else. It is certainly not free market. Hell, Hamas was elected by "democratic governance" but those folks are not working as a democracy in any sense of the concept.


yeah, what Walter said.

Walter, you summed it up succinctly.

263 William  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:13:05pm

It's simply idiotic that they're trying to prevent foreclosures by rewarding "homeowners" who placed themselves into financial peril:

In the case of a residential mortgage loan, modifications made under paragraph (1) may include—

(A) reduction in interest rates;
(B) reduction of loan principal; and
(C) other similar modifications.

Prudent people who stayed on the sidelines, who refused to take out a toxic mortgage to "buy" a property over-valued by 50% or more, get squat.

But someone using a 0% down mortgage, with a 2% temporary teaser interest rate, and bidding $50,000 over asking price, will now have all that financial gambling washed away?

What's next, government reimbursement for Poker losses in Vegas?

264 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:13:15pm

re: #251 Peter Verkooijen

Perhaps in dollar amount, because the boomers have the large numbers and these entitlements were expanded since the 1960s. They're still underfunded and my generation will end up paying for them, much more than we will ever get out of the system. By the time the boomers are finally dead and buried these programs will be long bankrupt.

That's going to take awhile, life expectancy keeps going up, and it's going up at a faster rate. Something else not factored into the gov'ts actuarial tables.

265 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:13:34pm

re: #247 Cognito

Is something happening in the financial world? Everything's fine, right?

Whistle, whistle, whistle.

Hi Cog!

What's your take? I get the impression that you are somehow media involved and am interested in your read of "The Bill."

266 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:13:38pm

re: #196 Dianna
That

The problem isn't this bailout.

The problem is the attitudes that produced the series of problems that produced the legislation that produced this bailout. The grasshoppers get to punish the ants; and it's not going to stop, because even the ants don't seem to understand that they don't deserve what's happening to them.

We would be better off if every year we contributed to a huge charitable fund that was doled out without the slightest merit, provided the people qualified to benefit had done not one blessed thing to help themselves, unless it was by accident. This largesse would be dropped upon the designated recipients at Christmas, with much rejoicing. Then we'd forget about them for another year.

I suspect it would do more good than all the social programs we've ever instituted.

is about as spot on a post as I've read out here in a long time.

267 rawmuse  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:13:41pm

This entire thing is starting to remind me of a motto of the corporate world:

FIVE PHASES OF A PROJECT

1) Enthusiasm
2) Disillusionment
3) Search for the Guilty
4) Punishment of the Innocent
5) Praise and honors for the Uninvolved

268 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:13:45pm

re: #260 Syrah

Reid is a shit. A real bastard.


Harry Reid?

Why yes, he is a shit.

269 Tigger2005  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:13:57pm

Just give up then. Fucking quit. God what a bunch of whining crybabies in here. I'm sure glad Churchill and Roosevelt didn't have this attitude while the armies of hell were surging over the face of the Earth.

re: #260 Syrah

It looks like a screw job, like one from those old black and white gangster movies where we are being offered a deal we can't refuse. They have a gun to our head and knife at our gut.

We are screwed no matter what they do.

Worse, those Dem bastards who did this to us will get away with it not just scott-free, but be able claim credit for "fixing" the problem that they created in the first place.

I saw a little bit of today's Dem Press Conference.

Reid is a shit. A real bastard.

Even worse than that, I don't know a way out.

No good choices.

Choose door number one, the ravenously hungry pack of wolves, or Door number two, the crazed and hydrophobic Grizzly Bear.

6 to 1 and half a dozen to the other.

If this monstrosity passes, we could all be laid off just after Christmas, If it fails, we could all find the doors to our offices shuttered by the end of the week.

Screwed every which way but loose.

Don't like it, either way.

270 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:14:09pm

re: #257 realwest

Then don't let the Dems get away with creating the legislation that does that next time.

Thank you, Jimmy Carter.

271 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:15:06pm

re: #257 realwest

That would be a GREAT plank in a party's platform if that party didn't also think it was cool to have the Government REQUIRE that Free Market loan money to folks the Free Market KNOWS can't pay it back.


If the asset keeps going up in value then the banks would still be in good shape. If you default on a 100k loan on a property worth 200k, and can be sold at that price, they still do well.

But the bubble burst due to speculation and artificial demand.

272 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:15:23pm

A huge part of the problem we face here is that the people responsible for this mess continue to flip us the bird.

273 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:15:53pm

re: #242 Cartman

I think some here are confusing defeatism with healthy cynicism, IMO.

Indeed.

I'm healthily cynical. I know I'm gonna get screwed. I'm negotiating for something besides the 40-grit condom; or, at least, recognizing that the issue is getting some flowers the next morning.

The thing is, the government (and the voters) created this mess.

If you want to minimize the knock-on consequences, I'm right with you! But don't waste my time harrumphing about principles that have been inoperative for twenty years.

Deal with the immediate problem. Then, let's have a long, painful conversation.

Because I guarantee I'm going to do better in that one than Senator Dodd or Representative Frank are.

274 spirochete  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:16:07pm

Page 14:

"the devaluation of the preferred government-spon
sored enterprises stock will drop one or more capital
levels"

is this the bond rating system, BBB.AAA+++ and all that?

275 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:16:38pm

re: #247 Cognito

Is something happening in the financial world? Everything's fine, right?

Whistle, whistle, whistle.

I now understand why you use a teddy bear as your avatar!

276 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:16:40pm

re: #261 Russkilitlover
i was thinking more along the lines, McCain capitalism earned back.

Obama, totalitarianism

277 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:16:53pm

re: #267 rawmuse

This entire thing is starting to remind me of a motto of the corporate world:

FIVE PHASES OF A PROJECT

1) Enthusiasm
2) Disillusionment
3) Search for the Guilty
4) Punishment of the Innocent
5) Praise and honors for the Uninvolved

LOL! I have more than several times operated under model!

278 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:17:04pm

re: #225 Cartman

... I can guarantee you that this plan will be rife with murky provisions and extremely questionable judgment, and that it will reek of neo-socialism. This is a dark period in American history about to unfold before our very eyes.

It's entirely a generational story. The babyboomers are reaching retirement, so now they all expect the government to take care of them. That's why healthcare is becoming such a big political issue. Socialism is great when you can collect the benefits. Screw the rest.

Generation Y and the millennials are thoroughly brainwashed and happily go along with their boomer parents agenda, even though they will get stuck with the bill. Obama is the perfect candidate for the time. A red diaper baby who embodies the worst of 1960s politics, coached and handled by old sixties radicals, but appealing to the 20-somethings.

279 MikeySDCA  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:17:10pm

re: #263 William

Too true. That is, of course, what BO is advocating.

280 Ceemack  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:17:12pm
I just don't know how many times this can be said. Stop a financial collapse and then fix the fucking law! It is not writ in stone!


Tigger, get this through your head.

The Democrats in Congress don't want to repeal that law. They will never do it if they're not forced to.

So if it's not part of the initial price of their precious bailout, it will never happen.

So we'll bail out companies who made bad loans--while we force them to continue to make the same bad loans.

There's only one chance to really fix the problem, and it's right now.

Got it?

281 spidly  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:17:15pm

this doesn't fix CRA at all, just gives authority for treas to suspend portions - correct?

282 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:17:45pm

re: #272 Cartman

A huge part of the problem we face here is that the people responsible for this mess continue to flip us the bird.

That's where most of the anger we see here is coming from, we have to roust those Dem bastards out of congress, that's the real fix. When we do it we have to also watch the Republicans we select -- stop looking at social issues so much and more at economics, defense, and freedom.

283 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:17:58pm

re: #269 Tigger2005

Just give up then. Fucking quit. God what a bunch of whining crybabies in here.


That was uncalled for.

Yes, some here are very upset with this bill, as are you. We'll get through it - some need to talk type it out to wrap their head around it.

284 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:18:03pm

re: #216 jonathan1984

It's not "fear"; it's a good, rational expectation of the costs of doing nothing. Big difference.

When will people have a good rational expectation of taking care of themselves and not expecting the government to bail them out of their messes? I don't want a mommy government.

285 Russkilitlover  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:18:16pm

G'night all. Interesting tomorrows.

286 Optimizer  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:18:43pm

re: #162 reine.de.tout

Someone upthread mentioned EEO, and that's a good route to check out; but I don't understand this "policy" of not hiring back ex-employees. That makes no sense whatsoever. Why would they not want those very people who already have experience and are familiar with their operations? That makes no sense. Suggest if you have time and energy you check that out further.

Maybe it just applies to laid-off ex-employees, who might be deemed bitter towards the agency from their experience.

Oddly, in contrast, it seems like in blue collar jobs people get laid off and brought back all the time.

287 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:18:48pm

re: #272 Cartman

A huge part of the problem we face here is that the people responsible for this mess continue to flip us the bird.

Plenty of time for hearings after the financial markets calm down.

288 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:19:20pm

re: #230 merrytexas
WE haven't had a "Free Market Economy" since the
1920's. What are you talking about?

289 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:19:38pm

re: #259 merrytexas

The problem was CAUSED by the government? Of course it wasn't caused by GREED was it? People who wanted more than they could afford? Lenders who used predatory lending? No. Let's blame the government.

/sarc

I assume that you are not in favor of predatory lending. Taking advantage of those who know less by those who know more?

I also presume that you are in favor of laws for controlling predatory lending, sometimes known as conning?

People will always be either predatory or stupid, but we strive to keep our government from being so.

It sounds as if you don't think government (conservative government) can do wrong, or be stupid.

290 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:20:04pm

re: #260 Syrah

... Screwed every which way but loose. Don't like it, either way.

The BIGGEST clue I have that this is a screw job is that when this shit hit the fan, the Democrats were not on the tube demanding a special commision to investigate anything.

That tells you right away that they know they screwed the pup themselves. So, what happens, they get right on it, seeing that this can be a political hot patato that they can use to look good.

Now they stand up in front of the American people today, and crowing about how they save us.

And the follow up. If they are percieved to be the saviors here, and that helps push Obama over the top, then boy, Obama goes in with the LARGEST socialistic program ever in place, and he'll just ride that wave and bring all his other programs on board.

This is TOO BIG A STEP IN THAT DIRECTION, one that we will not be able to step back from this time. The New Deal almost became unbeatable in the past, this new deal hits it out of the ballpark.

Screwed.

291 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:20:24pm

re: #244 Racer X

I think both are culpable. The government said it was OK to do risky loans; lenders could have steered clear of them. Some jumped on them like a hog to grits.

Oh, dear.

Investor guidelines usually prescribed that "conservative" investments were supposed to be those that were rated Aaa or better by (gulp) the Lehman Bros. index of funds (or equivalent), or guaranteed by the US Government (that is to say, Fannie, Freddie and Ginnie; and T-bills and T-notes). That's what pension funds are invested in, generally.

Do you see where the problem lies?

This is why the bailout must happen.

292 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:20:30pm

re: #241 MandyManners
Ah, didn't know that! Thank you. Have you read it?

293 ParisParamus  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:20:51pm

Obama is a moron, and it just doesn't matter, because, apparently, most Americans are, too.

294 Stonemason  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:20:55pm

re: #251 Peter Verkooijen

Then fix them...seriously, I'm not a boomer, 1st election was 1984, I do not whine about the boomers, I am doing all I can to elect the right people who will ensure that those programs you are complaining about get fixed, and if need be, I will be trying to be elected to fix the darn things.

It is not his fault, it is not her fault, it just is, and we all need to fix it.

Oh, and none of it really matters anyway, so many here just understand the question "Why did you doubt?"

295 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:21:11pm

re: #278 Peter Verkooijen

You can trash the "boomers" all you'd like. It's no sweat off my back, even though I'm one of them. If you think I and my ilk have poisoned your future, go right ahead and have at it, but I won't be listening.

296 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:21:49pm

I believe the gvt has already taken some responsibilty, lack of honest oversite and regulation?

297 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:22:09pm

re: #269 Tigger2005

Just give up then. Fucking quit. God what a bunch of whining crybabies in here. I'm sure glad Churchill and Roosevelt didn't have this attitude while the armies of hell were surging over the face of the Earth.

I am not going to quit.

I just don't like being screwed and having to accept that it is the best option, even if it is the best option.

298 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:22:19pm

re: #289 Naso Tang

I think the more government involves itself in something the more wrong and stupid it is.

299 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:22:20pm

re: #287 Racer X

Plenty of time for hearings after the financial markets calm down.

But I'm afraid these could be donk show trials to, indeed, punish the innocent and hide the IDs of the guilty. Or to beat down only the guilty of the party not in power.

The donk connection to Wall Street and Freddie/Fannie is not clear in the minds of many.

300 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:22:35pm

re: #295 Cartman

You can trash the "boomers" all you'd like. It's no sweat off my back, even though I'm one of them. If you think I and my ilk have poisoned your future, go right ahead and have at it, but I won't be listening.

You never do.

301 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:22:41pm
302 MikeySDCA  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:22:48pm

re: #291 Dianna

Yes indeed. Thank you for mentioning reality.

303 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:23:30pm

re: #272 Cartman

A huge part of the problem we face here is that the people responsible for this mess continue to flip us the bird.

Exactly.

304 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:23:48pm

re: #291 Dianna

Do you see where the problem lies?

This is why the bailout must happen.

Yeah I get that - there was incentive to do the wrong thing. And you're right - this bailout is a necessary evil.

305 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:23:52pm

re: #298 merrytexas

I think the more government involves itself in something the more wrong and stupid it is.


Are you sure you are not a Libertarian?

;)

306 Claire  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:24:13pm

I blame the government! These buttheads, Democrats AND Republicans dropped the ball, big time allowing us to get to this point.

Oh, I warned about this once for 5 minutes 5 years ago....Well, I introduced legislation 2 years ago (but it didn't pass so I gave up.) blah, blah, blah.

Every single one of these rat bastards needs to be up for re-election in November. The entire House and Senate. Can we make our own law?

307 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:24:45pm

re: #300 Peter Verkooijen

You never do.

Bite me.

308 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:24:49pm

re: #301 ploome hineni

I don;t think so..Obama actually took a bank to court for refusing to make a loan

I think banks were obliged to make these high risk loans.

Roberson v Bank of America

309 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:24:49pm
re: #272 Cartman

A huge part of the problem we face here is that the people responsible for this mess continue to flip us the bird.

Flip us the bird, hell, their tossing the whole fucking flock at us.

310 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:25:11pm
TENANT PROTECTIONS.—In the case of mortgages on residential rental properties, modifications made under paragraph (1) shall ensure—
(A) the continuation of any existing Federal, State, and local rental subsidies and protections; and (B) that modifications take into account the need for operating funds to maintain decent and safe conditions at the property.

So they're protecting renters too. I don't know what some of you guys are whining about. Does this suck- fuck yeah, it sucks. Do we want a depression? I fucking don't. Do we need more defaulted loans- no! So they're doing what they can to keep people paying at least something on the loans. This is what credit collection agencies do every day because something is better than nothing. And they're going to protect renters from getting screwed by landlords who would have no choice but to pass the buck on to their tenants.

For God's sake- let's stop the bleeding first! Then we can work on curing this disease.

311 ggt  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:25:17pm

re: #225 Cartman

That has been my take also. Nice set-up for the Alinsky-ites: Push for "fair housing" then be there to take over when the system fails. They made a goal and we let them.

Now, what?

312 MikeySDCA  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:25:35pm

re: #306 Claire

No. We have a constitution.

313 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:25:47pm

re: #251 Peter Verkooijen
Then complain about that to this generation of politicians who've ripped off Social Security for OVER ONE TRILLION DOLLARS - and used it for a whole variety of things and those politicans include Republicans and Democrats. Don't blame me - I've paid waaay more into social security and medicare than I'll ever live to take out.
And while the Baby Boomer generation may have been the "largest" generation, it also was the generation that didn't stay home with Mommy and Daddy until well into their 20's; didn't sit around and play video games and in fact worked our asses off to try to make life better for our Children.

314 jonathan1984  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:25:49pm

re: #301 ploome hineni

They might as well have been. These subprime loans WERE profitable so long as the bubble kept up. It's hard to say "no" to what looks like a good profit center, especially given the way the stock market reacts right now. A bank that did not issue ANY subprime loan would have faced some sort of shareholder's revolt, I think.

315 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:26:12pm

re: #84 jaunte

Section 110
(2) MODIFICATIONS.—In the case of a residential mortgage loan, modifications made under paragraph (1) may include—
(A) reduction in interest rates;
(B) reduction of loan principal; and
(C) other similar modifications.

Congratulations, deadbeats, the taxpayers are going to buy your house for you to live in.

My qauestion is what about relief for those of us that just barely make it month to month but are NOT behind? does this mean we have to carry the rest? I believe there is a provision in there for RAISING interest rates on some issues....

316 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:26:39pm

re: #290 Walter L. Newton

Bingo Walter, there are chips yet to fall. Patience.

317 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:26:42pm

re: #311 ggt

That has been my take also. Nice set-up for the Alinsky-ites: Push for "fair housing" then be there to take over when the system fails. They made a goal and we let them.

Now, what?

See my #290 if you haven't. That what's next.

318 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:26:46pm

re: #290 Walter L. Newton


Screwed.

Starting with Shelby, the Republicans seem to have gone out of their way to give the impression that they were being dragged screaming to the table on this.

Not very smart impression to give out IMHO, unless they are sure that everything is going to go to hell anyway.

319 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:26:58pm

re: #310 Sharmuta

So they're protecting renters too. I don't know what some of you guys are whining about. Does this suck- fuck yeah, it sucks. Do we want a depression? I fucking don't. Do we need more defaulted loans- no! So they're doing what they can to keep people paying at least something on the loans. This is what credit collection agencies do every day because something is better than nothing. And they're going to protect renters from getting screwed by landlords who would have no choice but to pass the buck on to their tenants.

For God's sake- let's stop the bleeding first! Then we can work on curing this disease.

Borrowers will still default on their loans the bailout will not stop that

320 landshark  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:27:43pm

Holy S$%t! This bill is not what you think it is!

Treasury just conducted a relatively secret conference call with the financial community about the bailout. Check out the details at Naked Capitalism:
[Link: www.nakedcapitalism.com...]

A few highlights (thanx to Fair Economist on Calculate Risk blog) :

1. Tranching is just window dressing: "They could take the $700 billion max as soon as the bill has passed"

2. The exec comp provisions DO NOT affect existing contracts and only limit golden parachutes.

3. Program is directed at giving funds to "healthy" firms that do not need it.

4. No equity for individual deals under $100 million

5. Clawback of losses is aimed at ENTIRE financial system, not the guilty parties! And, this would not happen for 5 years. It basically ensures it will never happen. Forget about any protection of the taxpayer.

321 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:27:44pm
322 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:27:48pm

re: #310 Sharmuta
makes sense, I'm not against the bail-out at this point it's the pork and fraud . i'd really like to be sure Acorn and any other really stinky deals aren't there.

323 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:27:55pm

OK, who linked to Pandora earlier? I have been diggin' all kinds of new music on that thing.

Thanks!

324 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:28:24pm

re: #288 realwest

So the government fixes our prices? The government controls supply and demand? The government runs companies? And all this time I thought it was a free market in the US.

325 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:29:00pm

re: #259 merrytexas

The problem was CAUSED by the government? Of course it wasn't caused by GREED was it? People who wanted more than they could afford? Lenders who used predatory lending? No. Let's blame the government.

/sarc

Oy!

Predatory lending is going to turn out to be a comforting myth. I put that out because it's already the excuse du jour; "oh, poor little me! I was a victim! That predatory lender gave me money I couldn't pay back! It's not my fault! He forced me!"

The government created a mandate: "Thou shalt lend money to more poor people!"

In the simple scheme of things, that was only going to work out about half the time, no matter what. But the laws and regulations and pressure groups expanded the mandate well beyond the quite reasonable risk of half-and-half.

As for the greed problem? In case you hadn't noticed, greed is one of the Seven Deadlies. Whether you're Catholic, or even Christian, the Seven Deadlies are quite recognizable problems of the human condition.

The problem is, in the last several decades, we've begun to confuse the seven deadlies with the seven virtues, and (most perversely) to reward the deadlies as if they were the virtues!

Can you say, "Moral hazard"? I knew you could!

326 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:29:02pm

re: #308 SpartanWoman

Roberson v Bank of America

And when they actually had the gall to turn them down they got demonstrations at their offices and lawsuits courtesy Acorn, Jesse Jackson, and others.

327 spidly  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:29:13pm

re: #315 Marvo76

My qauestion is what about relief for those of us that just barely make it month to month but are NOT behind? does this mean we have to carry the rest? I believe there is a provision in there for RAISING interest rates on some issues....

yep, unless you decide you want to risk your credit rating by missing some payments here and there and look like you're going to get foreclosed on. Banks have already been renegotiating laons so this is nothing new but it'll be the feds...

328 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:29:23pm

re: #294 Stonemason

Then fix them...seriously, I'm not a boomer, 1st election was 1984, I do not whine about the boomers, I am doing all I can to elect the right people who will ensure that those programs you are complaining about get fixed, and if need be, I will be trying to be elected to fix the darn things. ...

The boomers have the numbers, they set the agenda for society. They were radicals in their 20s (Carter, to stoned to vote before that...) capitalists in their 30s and 40s (Reagan), hitting mid-life crisis in their 50s (Clinton) and now they're hitting 60 they want government to take care of them (Obama). Not a damn thing I can do about it - I'm not even eligible to vote.

329 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:29:42pm

re: #24 Racer X

If I'm reading this correctly, Wall Street firms will be paying for the bailout through insurance premiums? Also establishes the Financial Stability Oversight Board.

Financial SOB? lol

hey, if the GOPers really got the provision that the Wall Street bastards will pay for insurance premiums, and Paulson and his democrat buddies really let that stay, BRAVO

330 spirochete  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:29:45pm

Page 37, line 11; "converted to senior debt" What is senior debt? First in line for the leftovers?

331 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:29:46pm

re: #316 Thanos

Bingo Walter, there are chips yet to fall. Patience.

If you are saying, wait, those responsible will get their just due, then I cannot agree with you. There is SO MUCH BLAME TO GO AROUND ON BOTH SIDES, that they are all covering their asses and there is NO WAY we are going to see anyone take a hit on this (except US).

I would stake my LIFE on what I just said.

332 Tigger2005  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:29:51pm

re: #272 Cartman

A huge part of the problem we face here is that the people responsible for this mess continue to flip us the bird.

So CALL THEM ON IT! I realize this is hard, but I am just so sick of the defeatism. Yes, it is HARD to change liberal's attitudes and habits, especially when they've been reinforced time after time. But it was HARD to beat the British too. It was HARD to beat Robert E. Lee. it was HARD to beat Hitler and the Japanese. It was HARD to defeat al-Qaeda in Iraq.

Yes, this bill sucks, yes it rewards the irresponsible, yes yes yes. But it is not laser-etched in a diamond! It can be altered even after it is signed into law! If you think provisions of it suck, fight to have them changed! Fight for accountability! Fight to get reformist conservatives elected and the Democrats thrown out! Too tired to fight? Gee, just imagine if more of George Washington's troops had said that after that nightmarish winter at Valley Forge. Or if all the guys at Little Round Top had just thrown in the towel. Or if the Marines had decided the sands of Iwo Jima were just too hot.

333 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:30:12pm
334 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:30:16pm

re: #308 SpartanWoman

wow! thanks for that.

335 sngnsgt  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:30:16pm

OT: WTF?

From Strange Politics.com: the dreaded flashing CBS memo is posted with no credit to Charles Johnson or LGF. What's up with this?

I think it's great that it's there for the world to see, but I think credit is due where deserved... ?

336 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:30:33pm

re: #256 Naso Tang

A market failure does not mean they are wrong. That's part of the principle.

337 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:30:45pm

re: #319 SpartanWoman

Borrowers will still default on their loans the bailout will not stop that

There always has been and will continue to be. So what should we do- nothing? Have more shitty, unpaid loans on our hands? AFck over the banks so they can't give us our cash?

338 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:30:58pm

re: #310 Sharmuta

that sounds more like protecting Section 8 renters or provisions?

dunno.

339 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:31:14pm

re: #310 Sharmuta

So they're protecting renters too. I don't know what some of you guys are whining about. Does this suck- fuck yeah, it sucks. Do we want a depression? I fucking don't. Do we need more defaulted loans- no! So they're doing what they can to keep people paying at least something on the loans. This is what credit collection agencies do every day because something is better than nothing. And they're going to protect renters from getting screwed by landlords who would have no choice but to pass the buck on to their tenants.

For God's sake- let's stop the bleeding first! Then we can work on curing this disease.

I am a landlord, I have two rentals on a propertyI live on and can't divide. I try to keep them in the best shape I can, spend what is neccessary to ensure that. If I can't pass it on (cost of doing business) then I loose the place due to inability to fund my mortgage.
What are they gonna do that will screw up my ability to collect rent I am already due? Trust me, I somehow think they already found a way....

340 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:31:16pm

re: #269 Tigger2005

I'm not! Don't blame me!

341 Tigger2005  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:31:46pm

re: #280 Ceemack

Tigger, get this through your head.

The Democrats in Congress don't want to repeal that law. They will never do it if they're not forced to.

So if it's not part of the initial price of their precious bailout, it will never happen.

So we'll bail out companies who made bad loans--while we force them to continue to make the same bad loans.

There's only one chance to really fix the problem, and it's right now.

Got it?

Ceemack, get this through YOUR head. We can

vote. the. assholes. out.

342 yenta-fada  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:31:54pm

[Link: media2.bloomberg.com...]

Nouriel Roubini (in his great Italian accent) on Bloomberg. He says the plan is very expensive, and that it doesn't recapitalize the banking industry or provide help for home owners. It just buys the toxic assets. The toxic assets (in my humble understanding) are worth zero, since they are largely derivatives & not the tangible real estate. Five years is forever from this point. It's just dressed up to sound reasonable.
Banksters will walk away with a lot of this money.

343 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:32:10pm

re: #313 realwest

... And while the Baby Boomer generation may have been the "largest" generation, it also was the generation that didn't stay home with Mommy and Daddy until well into their 20's; didn't sit around and play video games and in fact worked our asses off to try to make life better for our Children.

Those are the boomers children, gen Y and millennials. I left home at 17.

344 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:32:15pm

re: #325 Dianna

And let's not leave the speculators out of this. They are walking away from properties they expected to flip. When your equity+ is gone so is the incentive to keep paying.

345 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:32:19pm

re: #263 William
Um, you do know, don't you, that a lot of mortgage foreclosures are also now occuring because people have lost their jobs over the last ten years or more, at accelerating paces (and yes we've created a lot of jobs during that time period, but you can't replace a $60,000 annual income by being a WalMart Greeter or flipping burgers at name the fast food store of your choice). That White Heterosexual Men who are over 50 and get laid off have an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TIME FINDING WORK THAT PAYS THE SAME?
Yes the stupid effing subprime loans blew everything up, but an awful lot of folks who worked hard, tried to raise a family with decent moral values, worked in the PTA and all the rest of it suddenly couldn't afford their mortgage payments because they were suddenly and unexpectedly thrown out of work.

346 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:32:23pm

re: #335 sngnsgt

I think it's called copyright infringement.

347 jonathan1984  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:32:34pm

re: #333 ploome hineni

I stand corrected. However, my bigger point stands: it's not just government that's at fault here; so were shareholders/speculators looking entirely at the short-term gain. There's a lot of blame to go around.

348 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:34:12pm

re: #325 Dianna

Oy!

Predatory lending is going to turn out to be a comforting myth. I put that out because it's already the excuse du jour; "oh, poor little me! I was a victim! That predatory lender gave me money I couldn't pay back! It's not my fault! He forced me!"

The government created a mandate: "Thou shalt lend money to more poor people!"

In the simple scheme of things, that was only going to work out about half the time, no matter what. But the laws and regulations and pressure groups expanded the mandate well beyond the quite reasonable risk of half-and-half.

As for the greed problem? In case you hadn't noticed, greed is one of the Seven Deadlies. Whether you're Catholic, or even Christian, the Seven Deadlies are quite recognizable problems of the human condition.

The problem is, in the last several decades, we've begun to confuse the seven deadlies with the seven virtues, and (most perversely) to reward the deadlies as if they were the virtues!

Can you say, "Moral hazard"? I knew you could!

one has to wonder if this is political payback for the loosening of rules pertaining to minorities obtaining a loan........."OK, you got what you wanted, and now you are gonna make good on the consequences....(can you say "Unfunded mandates?" I knew ya could)

349 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:34:15pm

re: #284 merrytexas

You're waaaay too late.

sorry.

350 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:35:13pm

re: #336 merrytexas

A market failure does not mean they are wrong. That's part of the principle.

An preventable market failure does mean they are wrong. Regulation is no different from laws. There should be a minimum of all, but to pretend none are necessary is silly.

351 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:35:38pm

re: #331 Walter L. Newton

If you are saying, wait, those responsible will get their just due, then I cannot agree with you. There is SO MUCH BLAME TO GO AROUND ON BOTH SIDES, that they are all covering their asses and there is NO WAY we are going to see anyone take a hit on this (except US).

I would stake my LIFE on what I just said.

and you might be right, time will tell. In the end, we are responsible. Anyone of us could be working on someone's campaign who is deserving of our support instead of jabbering here.

352 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:36:11pm

re: #341 Tigger2005

Ceemack, get this through YOUR head. We can vote the assholes out

Tiger2005, get this through your head. It doesn't matter who we send to DC, they do not get there unless they are ready, willing and able to do what special interests wants them to do.

It only LOOKS LIKE we have any say in the matter. Considering the amount of money that is envolved with running a campaign, it is only the politicians that get the support of special interest, one way or another, and that's who gets sent to DC.

And when they get there, they had better fulfill their "contract" to the power brokers, otherwise they won't last more than one term.

Wanna bet?

353 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:36:27pm

re: #245 Walter L. Newton

This is not democratic governance, it is socialistic governance, period.

Oh Walter stop the hysterics! (Although I still want to see one of your plays someday...)

We have a problem in a technical sector of our huge economy. It is a difficult problem because it is a paper problem and the blame for this problem is politically toxic to accept and analyze in the immediate term. (It will assuredly be analyzed by posterity.)

The issue is now.

The combined powers of American democracy have met and proposed a solution. It is a wise to follow this deal.

354 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:36:45pm

re: #297 Syrah

I am not going to quit.

I just don't like being screwed and having to accept that it is the best option, even if it is the best option.

Well stated.

355 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:37:07pm
356 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:37:15pm

re: #345 realwest

Wait a few months until those high paid financial advisers recently out of work start defaulting on their million dollar loans.

357 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:37:46pm

re: #351 Thanos

and you might be right, time will tell. In the end, we are responsible. Anyone of us could be working on someone's campaign who is deserving of our support instead of jabbering here.

Wanna bet. See my 352 if you haven't, my opinion, but I would stake my life on it.

358 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:38:22pm

I thought it was fascinating that the only big Fannie Freddie recipient not trumpeting her involvement in the bailout was HILLARY!
I wonder what she knows that we don't, somehow I see her posed to strike, but now she is biding her time.

WHY?

359 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:38:22pm

re: #332 Tigger2005

Fight to get reformist conservatives elected and the Democrats thrown out! Too tired to fight?

If you are addressing me specifically, then I must inform you that you are preaching to the choir. For what it's worth, I'm not just sitting back and bitching about this. I'm actively volunteering my time to ensure that my country does not fall prey to those who wish to do her political and social harm. I hope others here are not just talking, but actually doing, as well.

360 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:38:26pm

re: #305 Naso Tang

Are you sure you are not a Libertarian? ;)

I'm a strong military defense, capitalistic, low taxes, broken-glass Republican. I have voted for one democrat (hanging head) but had no choice. I could not bring myself to vote for a man who tells jokes about the rape of women.

361 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:38:34pm

Why am I getting the feeling some folks don't need no water?

362 Archimedes  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:39:12pm

For those who want a brief respite from the government doofuses ruining the country and crushing our freedoms, check out this space shot of the SpaceX Falcon 1 rocket that made it into space. This is the first private vehicle to reach earth orbit from the ground. This is America as it ought to be, men adventuring outward, innovative and free.

Here is the awesome video:

Article on it:
[Link: blog.wired.com...]

SpaceX has made history. Its privately developed rocket has made it into space.

After three failed launches, the company founded by Elon Musk worked all of the bugs out of their Falcon 1 launch vehicles.

The entire spectacle was broadcast live from Kwajalein Atoll in the South Pacific. Cameras mounted on the spacecraft showed our planet shrinking in the distance and the empty first stage engine falling back to Earth.

As the rocket ascended, cheers rang out during every crucial step of the launch sequence, and at the final stage their headquarters in Hawthorne, California erupted in excitement. (Wired.com viewed the launch over the Internet on SpaceX's live webcast.)

The tensest moment came just before stage separation. At that critical juncture, the third launch attempt had failed. This time, it worked out perfectly.

Eight minutes after leaving the ground, Falcon 1 reached a speed of 5200 meters per second and passed above the International Space Station.

"I don't know what to say... because my mind is just blown," said Musk, during a brief address to his staff after the successful launch. "This is just the first step of many."

363 Tigger2005  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:39:24pm

Oh, OK then. No use fighting for anything already. Why should you expect the Republicans to vote against the bill?

364 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:39:40pm

re: #344 SpartanWoman

And let's not leave the speculators out of this. They are walking away from properties they expected to flip. When your equity+ is gone so is the incentive to keep paying.

I love a woman who thinks rationally....as we used to say in the Navy Bravo Zulu...(good job)

365 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:40:15pm

re: #364 Marvo76

:-D

366 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:40:19pm

re: #244 Racer X

I think both are culpable. The government said it was OK to do risky loans; lenders could have steered clear of them. Some jumped on them like a hog to grits.

Naw - the Gov GRADED the lenders on how many subprime loans were made using race as a factor.

And yes, some jumped on them. They really had no choice.

367 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:40:20pm

re: #355 buzzsawmonkey

Are the Democrats taking a leaf from Reagan's book?

It was said that Reagan intentionally strained the budget in order to de-fund social spending and entitlements.

Is this manufactured crisis a back-door way for the Democrats to end the overseas actions in the War on Terror by bankrupting the government?

I dunno about that. I believe the average American still thinks security is a top priority - over social programs.

368 RTLM  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:40:33pm

So, when does China and its teetering banks go through THEIR economic enema?

It did dawn on me that China has been strangely quiet in all this mess.

369 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:40:35pm

re: #315 Marvo76

You didn't take an ARM, did you?

If you did, refinance. Otherwise, yes, you might get caught short, and it wouldn't be to your benefit.

370 Naso Tang  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:40:43pm

re: #360 merrytexas

Peace.

Time to sleep.

Goodnight.

371 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:40:46pm

re: #349 Dianna

You're waaaay too late.

sorry.

Yah, I know. so sad...

372 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:41:02pm

re: #352 Walter L. Newton

Tiger2005, get this through your head. It doesn't matter who we send to DC, they do not get there unless they are ready, willing and able to do what special interests wants them to do.

It only LOOKS LIKE we have any say in the matter. Considering the amount of money that is envolved with running a campaign, it is only the politicians that get the support of special interest, one way or another, and that's who gets sent to DC.

And when they get there, they had better fulfill their "contract" to the power brokers, otherwise they won't last more than one term.

Wanna bet?

Uhm I am not ready to stop trying, maybe we can get a few more Ron Paul's in there to shake things up a bit if even a little....

373 Stonemason  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:41:29pm

re: #328 Peter Verkooijen

Look, we let this happen, call it greed, call it apathy, call it whatever you want but the Boomer's are only a small segment of the American culture.

We like our TV, it brings such nice images into our homes, and if it comes with some little social changes, well, heck, they're only small changes.

We like to shop, we like it cheap, so what the heck, Wal-mart isn't really hurting us, look at all the new jobs!

We like...you fill in the blanks, with each little thing we have let socialism, liberalism, and any other ism you like to mention creep in.

Think about the invisible hand for a second, conservatives love to imagine it, liberals ignore it and move the markets themselves.

That TV, conservatives don't use it for evil, progressives do though, we all had some good chuckles over the years...have ya looked at TV lately? Really looked at it? Then compared it to "Stranger in a strange land'? Cutting edge was that book, now, jokingly tame.

We have allowed it, I take responsibility, and I try to change it with my kids every day.

374 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:41:36pm

re: #368 RTLM

So, when does China and its teetering banks go through THEIR economic enema?

It did dawn on me that China has been strangely quiet in all this mess.

They're hiding out due to the poisoning of their children and the coverup during the Olympics.

375 Tigger2005  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:42:04pm

re: #352 Walter L. Newton

Tiger2005, get this through your head. It doesn't matter who we send to DC, they do not get there unless they are ready, willing and able to do what special interests wants them to do.

It only LOOKS LIKE we have any say in the matter. Considering the amount of money that is envolved with running a campaign, it is only the politicians that get the support of special interest, one way or another, and that's who gets sent to DC.

And when they get there, they had better fulfill their "contract" to the power brokers, otherwise they won't last more than one term.

Wanna bet?

Oh, OK then. No use fighting for anything already. Why should you expect the Republicans to vote against the bill, or change it?

376 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:42:06pm
377 jonathan1984  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:42:23pm

re: #368 RTLM

They're going through their own scare right now. Remember the scare last year over contaminated dog food? Apply it to milk this time around. Oops.

378 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:42:25pm

re: #361 Sharmuta
bwahaha

379 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:42:58pm

re: #345 realwest

... That White Heterosexual Men who are over 50 and get laid off have an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TIME FINDING WORK THAT PAYS THE SAME?
Yes the stupid effing subprime loans blew everything up, but an awful lot of folks who worked hard, tried to raise a family with decent moral values, worked in the PTA and all the rest of it suddenly couldn't afford their mortgage payments because they were suddenly and unexpectedly thrown out of work.

Bingo. That's where I'm coming from. And no, I wasn't over extended, I didn't play loose with my money and I had credit worthiness numbers that were off the top of the chart.

But when you work for 35 plus years, inching up, little by little and then suddenly come up against NOTHING, nothing for almost 4 years until I broke down and took the theatre job, at a loss of almost 60 thousand a year.

There is no way out of that kind of situation. I walked away from the house owning NOBODY anything, except the mortgage. I used my last penny to take care of every creditor I could, but there was no way to save the house.

So, now, NO CREDIT and at 55 years old, I don't think I will see a time when my rating is back to something respectable.

And now, this bailout is going to take MORE MOENY from my modest paycheck.

Screwed.

380 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:42:59pm

re: #374 merrytexas

They're hiding out due to the poisoning of their children and the coverup during the Olympics.

And they want us to keep buying their cheap goods, and many of us are thrilled to do so. No Smoot-Hawley this time, I pray

381 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:43:11pm

re: #355 buzzsawmonkey

If the Donks manage to bankrupt our government, they'll end up longing for the day when the WOT was our biggest threat.

382 ggt  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:43:18pm

re: #325 Dianna

yes, I can!

Moral hazard in finance
Financial bail-outs of lending institutions by governments, central banks or other institutions can encourage risky lending in the future, if those that take the risks come to believe that they will not have to carry the full burden of losses. Lending institutions need to take risks by making loans, and usually the most risky loans have the potential for making the highest return. A moral hazard arises if lending institutions believe that they can make risky loans that will pay handsomely if the investment turns out well but they will not have to fully pay for losses if the investment turns out badly. Taxpayers, depositors, other creditors have often had to shoulder at least part of the burden of risky financial decisions made by lending institutions.

Moral hazard can also occur with borrowers. Borrowers may not act prudently (in the view of the lender) when they invest or spend funds recklessly. For example, credit card companies often limit the amount borrowers can spend using their cards, because without such limits those borrowers may spend borrowed funds recklessly, leading to default."

i think that is the only thing I've actually understood tonite.

383 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:43:28pm

re: #378 willowone

bwahaha

Fuckit- Burn down the house!

Tigger2005- can I sell apples with you?

384 Boolz  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:43:33pm

A few random thoughts...

...too bad Washington D.C. isn't in Texas, because in Texas if somebody invades your (H)ouse, picks your safe, and pulls out 700 billion dollars to give to their buddies, you have the legal right to SHOOT them...

...if a mugger jumps out at you in a darkened alley, demands your wallet, and then insists it's for your own good, you can reasonably assume he resides in the Senate...

...if the Republicans don't fight this tooth and nail, then what good are they?...

...and I'm seriously beginning to doubt one bottle of Jack Daniels will get me through the night

385 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:43:38pm

re: #307 Cartman
Hey my friend, that wasn't very nice of you! After all the Baby Boomer generation screwed Peter's generation because we put ourselves through school (with college loans we paid off) served in an 11 year war that caused over 58,000 of us to die and over 350,000 to be wounded (and which such war was started by the "Greatest Generation"), worked our asses off to try to find and build a better future for the following generations and made it possible for NO ONE after the Baby Boomer Generation to HAVE to serve in the Military, put OUR children through college, and didn't sit on our asses in mom and dad's basement until we were 27, 28 or so before we really got started "earning our own way" and - having contributed large sums of money to social security - have the audacity to want some of that money back.
Not nice at all.

386 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:43:48pm

re: #369 Dianna

You didn't take an ARM, did you?

If you did, refinance. Otherwise, yes, you might get caught short, and it wouldn't be to your benefit.

I have two fixed rates, about 5.75 and 6.00% respectively, however my second, which was suspposed to be a line of credit has been frozen due to " declining home values in your area" so no line of credit anymore. I have about 8 years left on a 15 on my first loan and paying it off early. but I eat quite a bit of chicken lips and pork bung hot dogs to do it and keep a family of 5 fed....

387 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:43:50pm

re: #362 Archimedes

Woo hoo!

That is good news! I may make it into space yet!

388 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:44:02pm

re: #330 spirochete

Oh, man, have you got a lot to learn!

It's a term of art. Look it up in Wiki, their page on debt structure isn't all that bad.

389 landshark  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:44:25pm

Holy S$%t!..Bailout details...The sheeple are being led to the slaughter!

Secret Treasury Department meeting details with audio:

[Link: www.nakedcapitalism.com...]

390 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:44:52pm
391 Stonemason  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:44:58pm

re: #341 Tigger2005

I think I love you

392 pat  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:45:25pm

"Obama is a God."
Jamiewearingfull. lol

393 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:45:32pm

re: #374 merrytexas

They're hiding out due to the poisoning of their children and the coverup during the Olympics.


Their was a report that they had forbidden banks to dealin US debt issues, but the official agency came out and said "no that's not what we said" (translation for me at least, They did say it, but not for public release...)

394 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:45:34pm
395 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:45:34pm

re: #367 Racer X

I dunno about that. I believe the average American still thinks security is a top priority - over social programs.

Right - a chicken in every pot don't mean jack if you're dead.

396 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:46:07pm

re: #383 Sharmuta
haha, funny, and so appropriate!

397 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:46:29pm

re: #390 ploome hineni

She's keeping almost too low a profile in this situation. There is something afoot, I say!

398 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:46:38pm
399 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:46:39pm

re: #265 Russkilitlover

Hi Cog!

What's your take? I get the impression that you are somehow media involved and am interested in your read of "The Bill."

Honestly?

I have no idea. Sure, I've studied the issue enough to understand why AAA-rated mortgage-backed CDOs were sent by the devil, but if I sat here and spouted on about whether the $700-billion package will be a help or hindrance, I'd be wasting your time.

I do know this: I dislike the principle. I dislike the idea of government bailouts, which seem to have become the norm: bailouts after natural disasters for insurance companies, bailouts for crooked mortgage guarantors, bailouts for people who lend money, bailouts for people who borrow it.

So I can't speak to the short-term crisis. But I do know we can't survive like this.

400 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:46:52pm

re: #345 realwest

Um, you do know, don't you, that a lot of mortgage foreclosures are also now occuring because people have lost their jobs over the last ten years or more, at accelerating paces (and yes we've created a lot of jobs during that time period, but you can't replace a $60,000 annual income by being a WalMart Greeter or flipping burgers at name the fast food store of your choice). That White Heterosexual Men who are over 50 and get laid off have an EXTREMELY DIFFICULT TIME FINDING WORK THAT PAYS THE SAME?
Yes the stupid effing subprime loans blew everything up, but an awful lot of folks who worked hard, tried to raise a family with decent moral values, worked in the PTA and all the rest of it suddenly couldn't afford their mortgage payments because they were suddenly and unexpectedly thrown out of work.

Good point- realwest.

And now they- the government- is going to steal or de- value the 37 trillion-
Yes people that is Trillion, with a T. The 37 trillion dollars baby boomers inheritance that we would have passed on to our children and grand-children.

I wonder what the inside of a B rated nursing home looks like?

401 Colonel Panik  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:47:21pm

re: #145 SpartanWoman

If Sarah Palin is a Disney Movie, Obama is a Bond Villain

Soros is the Bond Villain, Obama is just his tool.

402 yenta-fada  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:47:33pm

re: #355 buzzsawmonkey

Are the Democrats taking a leaf from Reagan's book?

It was said that Reagan intentionally strained the budget in order to de-fund social spending and entitlements.

Is this manufactured crisis a back-door way for the Democrats to end the overseas actions in the War on Terror by bankrupting the government?

NOPE. In the 90's the Robert Rubin/Bill Clinton "strong dollar" policy made sure that the rest of the world would believe that the dollar deserved the world reserve currency status. However, Rubin (an old Goldman/Sachs guy like Paulson) used this reputation to leverage financial instruments largely created on Wall Street & bought by hedge funds, pension funds, mutual funds, etc. The "bets" called derivatives were quick money and big bonuses for Wall Street firms. However, last August (07) reality started to bite. Because the 'subprime loans' were packaged and sold internationally, nobody actually knew which counter-party was taking on the risk. Think of it as a huge "Where's Waldo" game multiplied by billions. It wasn't just the bad debt, it was the re-packaging of this bad debt that roped in the entire financial structure. That's why you see big cracks in the banking systems worldwide, and not just the US. China, Russia, Brazil, the Middle East, India, and everyone else will refuse to hold endlessly created dollars.

403 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:47:50pm

re: #375 Tigger2005

Oh, OK then. No use fighting for anything already. Why should you expect the Republicans to vote against the bill, or change it?

Show me where I am wrong. Who's up there in DC who is not responsible for this. It seems to me both sides, over the last 20 years, have had enough information to know that this problem was just lurking in the wings.

But it continued. Why? Has their been anyone we voted into a job in DC that said STOP on this. No. Wonder why?

We are fooling ourselves if we think that we really have any say in these matters. We don't. It's just an illusion.

404 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:47:54pm

re: #357 Walter L. Newton

Wanna bet. See my 352 if you haven't, my opinion, but I would stake my life on it.

And I'd stake my life that you are full of shit and nihilist to boot.

Some people still can't be bought, I've met a few of them. Next are you going to tell us about the Bilderbergers and the freemasons?

Of course there's some corruption, we are talking about human beings in office. Of course there are lobbies and interests, but for everyone you can show me, I can show you competing interests usually paying the same campaigns. I can also show you lobbyists paying politicians who then went directly against their interests. I can show you Sarah Palin, who's still getting stabbed in the back by some R's in Alaska, but is holding up well after flipping over some Rancid turtles in Alaska.

405 spidly  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:48:11pm

re: #401 Colonel Panik

Soros is the Bond Villain, Obama is just his a tool.

406 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:48:25pm

re: #344 SpartanWoman

And let's not leave the speculators out of this. They are walking away from properties they expected to flip. When your equity+ is gone so is the incentive to keep paying.

I've got a friend who does foreclosures.

The very sad fact is that he was just telling us last night that the speculators aren't as much of the problem as I'd thought - I'd been estimating about 10%. I'm wrong. It's better than 90% owner-occupied going into foreclosure.

Now, he only hammered me with that last night. I haven't started throwing it into my spreadsheets, or digesting it. But I'm guessing that it's going to change a lot of what I'm seeing and thinking.

Worse, the fraud and illegal alien loans (I'd been thinking about 7% (down from an initial estimate of 12%))? Actually looking about 2-4%.

He's sending me his raw figures. I'll start doing some break out. I will tell you what I see.

407 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:48:43pm

re: #399 Cognito

Taking financial responsibility is against the law, if you're big enough

408 RTLM  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:48:49pm

re: #377 jonathan1984
re: #374 merrytexas


They hold a fair amount of our "paper" - given that we borrow a good deal from China to finance our debt; if this were to suddenly become "bad paper", who would tank?

409 pat  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:49:25pm

re: #390 ploome hineni

watch Bill as he 'supports' Obama and as he spoke about him on the view

I think Bill and Hillary are dying to stop Obama......but how do they betray the PARTY

they are conflicted about wither betraying AMERICA by supporting Obama

or betraying their PARTY, and losing all chance for HIllary

so far, their self interest trumps

bt BIll is having a very difficult time with supporting Obama

I posted a link the other day how the Whitewater mortgages were written. All payments became rent if you were 30 days late, nonjudicial foreclosure, with no right to appeal.
Written by Hillary. Ms Kind and Gentle. I would like to see her in the ring with Palin for 3 minutes. No holds barred, improvised weapons allowed.

410 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:49:28pm

re: #373 Stonemason

Look, we let this happen, call it greed, call it apathy, call it whatever you want but the Boomer's are only a small segment of the American culture.

We like our TV ...
That TV, conservatives don't use it for evil, progressives do though, we all had some good chuckles over the years...have ya looked at TV lately? Really looked at it? Then compared it to "Stranger in a strange land'? Cutting edge was that book, now, jokingly tame.

We have allowed it, I take responsibility, and I try to change it with my kids every day.

Are you actually blaming television?

That's another typical boomer trait. The boomers were the first generation to grow up with television. They've never really learned how to deal with it and it has shaped their warped worldview. It made them believe they were all active participants in the great world events, the Civil Rights Movement, Vietnam, whatever they saw on tv. They acted out for the tv cameras. At the 1968 Democratic Convention their slogan was "the whole world is watching". Boomers are obsessed with tv.

411 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:49:46pm

re: #348 Marvo76

one has to wonder if this is political payback for the loosening of rules pertaining to minorities obtaining a loan........."OK, you got what you wanted, and now you are gonna make good on the consequences....(can you say "Unfunded mandates?" I knew ya could)

Twenty years of politics to look at.

412 experiencedtraveller  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:50:15pm

re: #376 ploome hineni

the problem was with the Barney Franks who were more interested in social engineering, than rational banking practice

YES. And if we don't resolve the problem rational banking will be injured. Present trouble aside banking is a good thing.

Allowing a system wide stroke, when avoidable by medication, is irrational.

413 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:50:18pm
414 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:51:06pm

re: #385 realwest

Peter isn't even an "eligible voter", whatever that entails. He's free to comment here all he wants, but might be well served to refrain from sending his dog into a fight that's not his.

415 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:51:49pm

re: #406 Dianna

I'd love to know. Also I wonder how this plays out in serious speculator markets. The poor and illegals weren't buying over priced SoBe condos.

416 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:51:57pm
417 spirochete  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:52:33pm

re: #388 Dianna

I do and I freely admit it. But learn I would like.

And on that note, with the first paragraph in Wiki of Senior Debt, I see my initial hunch was correct.

418 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:52:36pm

re: #390 ploome hineni

I said this on an earlier thread, but I am just f*cking gobsmacked that Bill "I loathe the military" is doing more to try to keep BHO from becoming my husband's CiC than George "I support the troops" Bush.

I've woken up in crazy land.

419 Colonel Panik  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:52:46pm

re: #409 pat


Written by Hillary. Ms Kind and Gentle. I would like to see her in the ring with Palin for 3 minutes. No holds barred, improvised weapons allowed.

Political Celebrity Deathmatch. I love it. Except I want to see Hill D. Beast take on Michelle Omarosa Obama first.

The victor of that match gets to fight the moose skinner.

420 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:53:29pm

re: #325 Dianna

Can you say, "Moral hazard"? I knew you could!

No, sorry, I probably couldn't. I think morals are relative, but that's neither here or there.

In this society, I do think greed is prevalent. I realize people have worked for companies expecting pensions that may never come. I realize regular normal everyday people have put money in 401Ks and the stock market, speculating that their money would make big bucks. They forget the RISK that's involved. Even buying a house is speculating that it will increase in value, not decrease.

Whatever happened to saving pennies for a rainy day? If we look around, so much of our society live like the rich compared to how our parents lived. This period in our country's economy is but a blip on the radar screen. We are resilient.

421 ggt  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:53:33pm

re: #401 Colonel Panik

I had an odd thought that Soros was trying to do to the US what he did to Malaysia. Any idea how his balance sheet has fared during all this?

422 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:54:07pm
423 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:54:21pm

re: #404 Thanos

And I'd stake my life that you are full of shit and nihilist to boot.

I'm not sure why you have to take the route of using nasty attacks on me. I'm not perfect and may be totally wrong, but what ever I think or say is not just idle ideas shooting out of my ears.

So, as much as you have the right to call me what ever you would like to, I don't think we need to go to that level.

But to each his own.

424 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:54:47pm

re: #419 Colonel Panik

Political Celebrity Deathmatch. I love it. Except I want to see Hill D. Beast take on Michelle Omarosa Obama first.

The victor of that match gets to fight the moose skinner.

In a political fight nobody can rumble like the Clintons which is why I think they have a trick up their sleeves and Hill is so damned silent

425 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:54:50pm

re: #382 ggt

You are a fine person!

426 Racer X  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:54:54pm

Anyone care for some MORE good news?

I just got another email from someone claiming Biden will develop a serious medical condition (aneurism?) shortly after the VP debate (Oct 4th or 5th), and Hillary will step in to replace him.

For confirmation check Craigslist ads for "food tasters wanted - Washington D.C. area".

427 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:54:59pm

re: #324 merrytexas
When the Government imposed NAFTA (that is the North American Free Trade Agreement) gives tax, tariff and other bene's to foreign companies, gives US companies tax breaks left and right, then you are right: the government has a HUGE say in setting prices (assuming you want your US corporation to make money against foreign competetion) and in setting economic policy [(Oh, you think it would be a good idea to build a little factory over there, fine, first we need an Envrionmental Impact Statement and a Phase I (at least) Environmental Review, we need to see what percentages of minorites (which is so broadly defined that all the "minorities" together are greater than the Majority) you will hire and you MUST pay them, regardless of their education or ability to do a job without ON the Job training the "Minimum Wage" (which of course changes every time the Dems are up for election) and of course you're building must comply with the local building codes and OSHA must oversee worker's safety,] etc. etc. etc. - that is NOT Free enterprise. It isn't even CLOSE to free enterprise.

428 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:55:24pm
429 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:55:31pm

re: #385 realwest
How touching, boomers crying on eachothers shoulders.

430 Colonel Panik  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:55:41pm

re: #421 ggt

I had an odd thought that Soros was trying to do to the US what he did to Malaysia. Any idea how his balance sheet has fared during all this?

One of our financial wizards or legal beagles will have to answer that one for you but I would bet the SOB is short selling the US economy.

431 Killian Bundy  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:56:15pm

Yeah, the bill sucks. Do you think they're doing it because they want to?

Do you want to see what DOW 8000 and the attendant consequences looks like, including the inability to borrow money, which is already happening?

/it'd make $770 billion look like a drop in the bucket

432 bucko36  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:56:30pm

This outrages "Liberal Bill" is the biggest piece of SHIT I have every seen.
"GOD Bless America", we do need your HELP.
Save us from these Liberal "Socialistic CROOKS".

433 SpartanWoman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:56:33pm

re: #426 Racer X

Anyone care for some MORE good news?

I just got another email from someone claiming Biden will develop a serious medical condition (aneurism?) shortly after the VP debate (Oct 4th or 5th), and Hillary will step in to replace him.

For confirmation check Craigslist ads for "food tasters wanted - Washington D.C. area".


Maybe it will be Obama instead Clinton/Biden anybody?

434 ggt  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:57:32pm

re: #425 Dianna

Hey, back atcha'!

435 Stonemason  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:57:48pm

re: #410 Peter Verkooijen

Are you actually blaming television?

No...and if that was what you took from my post, you did not read it close. I am blaming myself, you, and everyone else that has not, as was so eloquently put by Trigger:

VOTED. THE. ASSHOLES. OUT

436 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:57:53pm

re: #429 Peter Verkooijen

How touching, boomers crying on eachothers shoulders.

Why don't you go fuck yourself, punk.

437 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:57:59pm

re: #386 Marvo76

Then keep doing it.

There's no way you can do better than you are right now, at least in terms of interest rates. And you actually do have an asset; this, too shall pass, and your house will be worth something again.

Don't panic. And, most of all(!), don't ask for government help! It never works out to your benefit!

438 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:58:01pm
439 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:58:01pm
440 Thanos  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:58:01pm

Walter, it's past my bedtime and I'm getting cranky. I'll take back the "full of shit", but not the nihilist. Time for some sleeps.

441 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:58:20pm

re: #406 Dianna

I've got a friend who does foreclosures.

The very sad fact is that he was just telling us last night that the speculators aren't as much of the problem as I'd thought - I'd been estimating about 10%. I'm wrong. It's better than 90% owner-occupied going into foreclosure.

Now, he only hammered me with that last night. I haven't started throwing it into my spreadsheets, or digesting it. But I'm guessing that it's going to change a lot of what I'm seeing and thinking.

Worse, the fraud and illegal alien loans (I'd been thinking about 7% (down from an initial estimate of 12%))? Actually looking about 2-4%.

He's sending me his raw figures. I'll start doing some break out. I will tell you what I see.

I have a buddy who has worked collections for years, HSBC, and Lehman brothers recently. He is dealing with multiple foriegn owners. These are "immigrants" (legal or otherwise) who got sweatheart deals on loans, and now that the ARM is coming due, they go back home and just leave everything. Someone is makeing a bunch of money for nothing off the deal, All the money they paid in before they left is paying SOMEONE'S salary....

442 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:58:24pm

re: #323 Racer X

You can check out my Neil Young Radio if you wish. Pandora is a great site for rock and roll trivia too.

443 Colonel Panik  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:59:00pm

re: #426 Racer X

Anyone care for some MORE good news?

I just got another email from someone claiming Biden will develop a serious medical condition (aneurism?) shortly after the VP debate (Oct 4th or 5th), and Hillary will step in to replace him.

For confirmation check Craigslist ads for "food tasters wanted - Washington D.C. area".

I was listening to Rush's weekend recap on Saturday and apparently he thinks Biden is so gaffe prone and such an asset to the McCain campaign that he is about to launch the successor to "Operation Chaos"..."Operation Sling Blade" aka "Operation Save Our Biden".

444 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:59:04pm

Screwitall! Who's coming with me?

445 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:59:06pm

I loved the debate part where McCain said he knew 2 years ago we were headed for a train wreck.
And Obamma agreed, and said he had sent a letter to the Treasury and others that the train wreck was coming.
Funny-
No one told the American citizens.

If you would have told me AIG- A trillion dollar AAA+ company was on the verge of bankruptcy, I could have simply rolled over my 401k into a guaranteed 4 percent within the company.

446 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:59:11pm

re: #440 Thanos

Walter, it's past my bedtime and I'm getting cranky. I'll take back the "full of shit", but not the nihilist. Time for some sleeps.

I accept that.

447 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:59:24pm

re: #422 ploome hineni

George has been restrained

By whom? Goldman Sachs? The Bilderburgers? C'mon, the man is President of the United States, the most powerful man in the world.

Bush has been disastrous in many, many ways. If Obama wins this November, GW Bush carries a hell of a lot of the blame for that.

448 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 9:59:50pm

re: #416 ploome hineni

you are accountant?

/i am impress

No, I work in nonprofit world. I write. I do numbers. I edit. I talk to people.

It's a two person office, and we administer over $100 million in assets - well, it was that much Friday. It might be about $88 million on Monday, for all I know.

449 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:00:45pm

re: #437 Dianna

Then keep doing it.

There's no way you can do better than you are right now, at least in terms of interest rates. And you actually do have an asset; this, too shall pass, and your house will be worth something again.

Don't panic. And, most of all(!), don't ask for government help! It never works out to your benefit!

OH I don't plan on that....I will keep this up as long as I have the strength to do it. But some days it is a stuggle to keep abreast of it...

450 ggt  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:00:53pm

It's my bedtime Lizards!

try to have weet dreams.

451 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:01:16pm
452 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:01:26pm

re: #352 Walter L. Newton

I'm in for 10 on what Walter said. How else do you explain all the lawyers in Congress?

453 Stonemason  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:01:29pm

re: #420 merrytexas

I think morals are relative, but that's neither here or there.


No...actually that single statement is right here, right now. That is why we are in the mess we are in, we do not have the balls to tell others they are wrong.
To let others fail and to admit that some people just do not have the drive to keep a job long enough to pay for a house.

Morals are not relative.

454 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:01:39pm

re: #431 Killian Bundy

Yeah, the bill sucks. Do you think they're doing it because they want to?

Do you want to see what DOW 8000 and the attendant consequences looks like, including the inability to borrow money, which is already happening?

/it'd make $770 billion look like a drop in the bucket

Many of those loan packages (and slices of loan packages) were rated "money good."

Turns out that wasn't true.

Or, worse: What if they were good as the dollar?

(cue Psycho music)

455 Cartman  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:02:11pm

I'm outta here. Broke my own rule and let some idgit get my gander. G'nite, all...

456 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:02:28pm

re: #450 ggt

It's my bedtime Lizards!

try to have weet dreams.

Is that a misprint of either sweet or wet? either way I am going to hit it too. good night lizzards...

457 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:02:53pm

re: #427 realwest

When the Government imposed NAFTA (that is the North American Free Trade Agreement) gives tax, tariff and other bene's to foreign companies, gives US companies tax breaks left and right, then you are right: the government has a HUGE say in setting prices (assuming you want your US corporation to make money against foreign competetion) and in setting economic policy [(Oh, you think it would be a good idea to build a little factory over there, fine, first we need an Envrionmental Impact Statement and a Phase I (at least) Environmental Review, we need to see what percentages of minorites (which is so broadly defined that all the "minorities" together are greater than the Majority) you will hire and you MUST pay them, regardless of their education or ability to do a job without ON the Job training the "Minimum Wage" (which of course changes every time the Dems are up for election) and of course you're building must comply with the local building codes and OSHA must oversee worker's safety,] etc. etc. etc. - that is NOT Free enterprise. It isn't even CLOSE to free enterprise.

I think it was in the 5th or 6th grade government class that we learned the definition of the above started with the letter "F".

458 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:03:14pm

Anyone have a decent grasp of what's happening in the Asian markets?

459 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:03:22pm

re: #438 buzzsawmonkey

Not a bad analysis. Had to read through the TARP crap today and you had a new look.

In other words, I am not discussing the source of the financial mess--I am suggesting that the choice of solution, and the delay which is pushing rapid adoption of a questionable solution, may well have been engineered for the purpose of making continuation of the war financially untenable. This would bring about the desired result of folding the war effort and bringing everyone home, on purely financial grounds. That would be an end run around the merits of the war, and around whether or not the Democrats are soft on defense, or in bed with the enemy. It would be a purely financial decision, dontcha know--that would just coincidentally achieve what the Democrats have been trying to bring about, but in a manner in which their "patriotism" and "support of the war/surge/troops" could not be questioned.

460 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:03:37pm
461 Carridine  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:03:43pm

re: #362 Archimedes

THANKS for the link! BRILLIANT flight, Archimedes!

462 Colonel Panik  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:03:59pm

re: #442 Mel Lono

You can check out my Neil Young Radio if you wish. Pandora is a great site for rock and roll trivia too.

A Southern man don't need him 'round, anyhow.

463 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:04:02pm

re: #289 Naso Tang

I assume that you are not in favor of predatory lending. Taking advantage of those who know less by those who know more?

I also presume that you are in favor of laws for controlling predatory lending, sometimes known as conning?

People will always be either predatory or stupid, but we strive to keep our government from being so.

It sounds as if you don't think government (conservative government) can do wrong, or be stupid.

You know what?
People should READ the damn loan paper before they sign the fucking thing.

The CRA must be abolished.

Forcing lenders to make home loans to a bunch of idiots who cannot pay it back is fucking stupid.

Bring back the 10/20% downpayment, that will weed out the idiots who cannot make their payments, or at least most of them

464 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:04:07pm

re: #356 Naso Tang
Yep, my former colleagues at the Real Estate Institute at a major NYC University - who have been teaching and preaching against the CRA for years now - tell me that the NYC Housing market has already dropped nearly 20% in the last several months (some people like Merrill Lynch, Bear Stearns and Lehman, not too mention CitiBank, JP Morgan Chase and other banks have been "quietly" laying off tens of thousands of workers in NYC alone).

465 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:04:17pm

re: #438 buzzsawmonkey

You are talking about the cause of the financial crisis. I am not. I am talking about the motivation behind the currently-proposed solution.

If indeed it was true that the current situation could have been at least alleviated, and possibly entirely prevented, by suspending "mark to market" regulations--and inclusion of "mark to market" suspension in the current bill argues that had it been done in timely fashion that might have made the bailout unnecessary--the question arises as to why it was not done in a timely fashion, but why, instead, this huge payout was authorized, and why it initially (and some say even now) contained earmarks/payoffs for pet Democratic vote-fraud entities like ACORN.

In other words, I am not discussing the source of the financial mess--I am suggesting that the choice of solution, and the delay which is pushing rapid adoption of a questionable solution, may well have been engineered for the purpose of making continuation of the war financially untenable. This would bring about the desired result of folding the war effort and bringing everyone home, on purely financial grounds. That would be an end run around the merits of the war, and around whether or not the Democrats are soft on defense, or in bed with the enemy. It would be a purely financial decision, dontcha know--that would just coincidentally achieve what the Democrats have been trying to bring about, but in a manner in which their "patriotism" and "support of the war/surge/troops" could not be questioned.

Problem being, it was the Bush administration SEC that sat on this problem, abolished the uptick rule (is that the right name?) and fiddled around on the mark to market thing....not congressional democrats.

The uptick thing was done away with over 6 months ago, and apparently had a lot to do with the timing of this whole disaster. That was Chris Cox's doing, and he is supposedly such a good conservative.

466 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:04:35pm

re: #445 ibmkeyboard

I loved the debate part where McCain said he knew 2 years ago we were headed for a train wreck.
And Obamma agreed, and said he had sent a letter to the Treasury and others that the train wreck was coming.
Funny-
No one told the American citizens.

If you would have told me AIG- A trillion dollar AAA+ company was on the verge of bankruptcy, I could have simply rolled over my 401k into a guaranteed 4 percent within the company.

I moved clients out of AIG and WaMu 18 months ago.

467 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:04:40pm

Dog walking! Then probably bed.

468 solomonpanting  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:04:53pm

re: #458 Cognito

Anyone have a decent grasp of what's happening in the Asian markets?

You can refresh this page as needed.

469 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:05:14pm
470 Peter Verkooijen  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:05:23pm

re: #436 Cartman

Why don't you go fuck yourself, punk.

Punk, I like that. Heh heh. :-)

471 pat  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:05:30pm

re: #421 ggt

I had an odd thought that Soros was trying to do to the US what he did to Malaysia. Any idea how his balance sheet has fared during all this?

He has lost about $150M, per week for a month selling America short, or so I hear. Punk.

472 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:05:51pm

re: #429 Peter Verkooijen

How touching, boomers crying on eachothers shoulders.

struck a nerve didn't it shit head.

/in mommy and daddy's basement until 30 years old.

473 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:05:53pm

re: #359 Cartman
And you are FAR from alone my friend.

474 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:06:01pm

re: #468 solomonpanting

You can refresh this page as needed.

Thanks.

Looks ... cautious, I guess.

475 spirochete  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:06:11pm

re: #458 Cognito

Anyone have a decent grasp of what's happening in the Asian markets?

Nah, from what I can tell, started mixed and bobbing.

476 Colonel Panik  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:06:45pm

re: #468 solomonpanting

You can refresh this page as needed.

Nikkei Japanese, Hang Seng is in Hong Kong, what and where is that third exchange, BSESN? Singapore?

477 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:06:50pm
478 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:07:07pm

re: #477 ploome hineni

so now you can explain it to us?

Sorry?

479 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:07:32pm

re: #467 Dianna

Check you mail and trash bucket.

480 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:08:08pm
481 solomonpanting  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:08:19pm

re: #476 Colonel Panik

Nikkei Japanese, Hang Seng is in Hong Kong, what and where is that third exchange, BSESN? Singapore?


I believe it's India.

482 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:08:38pm

re: #376 ploome hineni
Spot on post ploome!

483 pat  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:08:48pm

re: #466 Bobibutu

I moved clients out of AIG and WaMu 18 months ago.

Bush tried to pass 17 bills to prevent this, each one blocked by Doods, oops, I mean Dodds, and Frank.
(MSM response: "Financial crises layed at Bush's feet. Non-bipartisan approach spells disaster for America".

484 yenta-fada  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:09:01pm

re: #438 buzzsawmonkey

Your thought process is highly reasonable. Being the simple person that I am, I'm going for the approach that massive GREED on the part of investment banks, bought and paid for politicians, hedge funds(a la Long Term Capital Management that the government needed to bail out a few years ago) is as good an explaination as any. When people see the opportunity to make millions of dollars per year on a short term basis, do you think that they are thinking with anything but their wallets? You are implying that a political party is considering any strategy besides the one of continuing to be elected so that it can feed at the taxpayer's expense. We have so many dynasties these days for whom politics is just the way that their families continue to get rich and fat. (metaphorically speaking) Vote the bums out is a good response. You give them too much credit for long term goals. This was evident before 9/11. That is a tragic wild card that still haunts and affects us.

485 Bill Jefferson  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:09:16pm

Harry Reid grinning.


No way in hell this can be good.

486 jaunte  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:09:20pm

sum tre ding.

slo fo nao.

487 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:09:43pm

re: #403 Walter L. Newton

Show me where I am wrong. Who's up there in DC who is not responsible for this. It seems to me both sides, over the last 20 years, have had enough information to know that this problem was just lurking in the wings.

But it continued. Why? Has their been anyone we voted into a job in DC that said STOP on this. No. Wonder why?

We are fooling ourselves if we think that we really have any say in these matters. We don't. It's just an illusion.

McCain tried to pass a bill in 2006 to get more oversight into fannie/freddie. The Dem Congress would not allow it to come up for a vote.

488 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:10:08pm

re: #480 ploome hineni

asian markets

now that you have seen the info

what is happening in the asian markets?

Just a cautious approach, appears to me. Waiting to see what will happen with the bailout in the US.

That's my read, but I've got no particular financial insight.

489 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:10:33pm
490 spirochete  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:11:09pm

Fortis receives 16.3 billion US$ from Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemborg.

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

491 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:11:13pm

SEC. 122. INCREASE IN STATUTORY LIMIT ON THE PUBLIC
4 DEBT.
5 Subsection (b) of section 3101 of title 31, United
6 States Code, is amended by striking out the dollar limita7
tion contained in such subsection and inserting
8 ‘‘$11,315,000,000,000’’. so is the final result?

492 pat  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:11:25pm

re: #465 funky chicken

Untrue. This is not an SEC problem. Nothing done was illegal. In fact it was encouraged.

493 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:11:38pm

re: #483 pat

Bush tried to pass 17 bills to prevent this, each one blocked by Doods, oops, I mean Dodds, and Frank.
(MSM response: "Financial crises layed at Bush's feet. Non-bipartisan approach spells disaster for America".

Yeppers ... and for longer than the last 2 years.

494 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:11:42pm

re: #441 Marvo76

I have a buddy who has worked collections for years, HSBC, and Lehman brothers recently. He is dealing with multiple foriegn owners. These are "immigrants" (legal or otherwise) who got sweatheart deals on loans, and now that the ARM is coming due, they go back home and just leave everything. Someone is makeing a bunch of money for nothing off the deal, All the money they paid in before they left is paying SOMEONE'S salary....

Hmmm. . .

Smells like opportunity.

If they are walking away, that means that they are likely to be cheap for picking up on the other side.

I bought a HUD foreclosure. It allowed me a +20% discount over the going rate for the neighboring properties. These walkaways have to be valuable for some kind of resale price.

495 rawmuse  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:12:12pm

I remember years ago when gold was way down, I was taking extra cash and buying coins. My wife bitched at me until she was blue. Now she thinks I am a genius.

496 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:12:57pm
497 pat  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:13:25pm

When the music's over, turn off the lights.
Morrison.

498 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:13:58pm
499 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:14:00pm

re: #485 Bill Jefferson
first thing that cam to my mind Harry Reid happier than cht

500 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:14:06pm

re: #452 merrytexas

I'm in for 10 on what Walter said. How else do you explain all the lawyers in Congress?

You know, I don't consider myself a nihilist in the pure sense of the word, but I will certainly cop to the fact that I have started to develop some level of nihilism.

And it may do this country some good if more of the John Q. Public started to consider added a little nihilism to the mix.

I think our love affair with this political party or that political party is over. Yea, it felt good to be behind the winner, or work earnstly for the loser and turn the country around, but in my opinion, that has become a task similiar to chasing rainbows.

Thanos said in short that special interest funds both sides of compeating political thoughts. Well, why the hell do you think they do that? Becuase, in that way, they are going to have their hand up that politicians ass, pulling the strings, not matter what party they come from.

Sure, down here in the trenches, it feels really good to think that we are fulfilling all of those democratic principles by working for this candidate or that candidate, but that is only an exersize designed to keep us occupied and busy.

Meanwhile, the real power brokers (who are not us) are playing us for fools. And no, I'm not talking about the One World poo-poo stuff, I'm talking about the fact that DC are the bag men for special interest. Big business. It doesn't take some deeply entrenched conspirisy to make this all work.

Big business wants to make big money, at any expense, and they don't care who they steamroll in that quest. It's not some complicated plan, just simply make more money.

We know this, we feel this, we hope it's not true, but we know it is.

What can we do. Vote as many of them out as we can. We can't stop this in one fell swoop, but we can punch enough holes in their system to slow them down. Sort of poltical speedbumps. And after we slow them down, then maybe we can work on real change.

Until then, while we keep playing partisan games, we are playing right into their hands, giving them all the room they need to continue to screw us.

Think about it.

501 Opilio  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:14:54pm

re: #447 funky chicken

If Obama wins this November, GW Bush carries a hell of a lot of the blame for that.

If Obama wins this November, it will be the fault of about 50,000,000 of your fellow Americans. (As well as a few hundred thousand well placed illegal voters, and in select jurisdictions, a number of dead ones.)

502 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:14:56pm

[Link: solari.com...]

Proposed $700 Billion Bailout Is Too Little, Too Late to End the Debt Crisis; Too Much, Too Soon for the U.S. Bond Market
By Martin D. Weiss & Michael D. Larson (24 Sep 2008)
Submitted to U.S. Congress, Senate Banking Committee, House Financial Services

* Note: This document includes a current list of troubled banks and information on how to find bank ratings.

503 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:15:24pm

re: #379 Walter L. Newton
Walter, I know this is of no comfort to you, but you are not the only one who has been there and done that.
Ageism and sexism (against White heterosexual men) is now institutionalized. I wish - honestly - that I had some sort of way to help you fix your problems, but I don't.
Companies want their stock values to go up - well let's cut operating costs! How do we do that? Well if we cut personnel, we a) reduce our payroll costs b) reduce our health insurance costs and c)need to present a younger more dynamic looking (remember perception is everything today) company, then WHAMMO let's cut the folks who've been here the longest cause the odds are good that they are getting paid the most and as they age, the more of a drain they'll be on our healthcare!
Solution found - let's give ourselves BIG BONUSES - in shares of stock of the Company - for being so smart!

504 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:15:39pm

re: #466 Bobibutu

I moved clients out of AIG and WaMu 18 months ago.

My dad said he know WaMu was gonna go in the crapper way back when. He said in the last decade or so they decided to build a bunch of branches in "the ghetto" (his words) and start handing out loans to people who wouldn't/couldn't ever pay them back.

What a business model--just hand out cash to losers, and hope all your middle class customers keep depositing their paychecks in your company to hide all the losses.

505 Boolz  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:15:49pm

Do you want to see the DOW at 8000?

Didn't we already see that after 9/11? Given time, it came back up. It may have SUCKED for a long while, but it did correct itself. If we could be patient with that, then we can be patient with this. But with an additional 700 billion dollars added to our already staggering national debt, to save the DOW we will have to sacrifice SOMEWHERE. Do not be surprised if oil goes through the roof through inflationary concerns (i.e. if we can't pay back the debt naturally, we'll just print out the cash). Just ask yourselves...how much did oil jump when it was first announced a bailout plan was in the works? Robbing Peter to pay Paul is NOT sound fiscal policy

506 pat  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:16:19pm

re: #495 rawmuse

Start selling the bullion coins, hang on to the issued coinage. Gold is about $350 over mining cost. Keep the collector stuff for a late sale.

507 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:16:35pm

re: #500 Walter L. Newton

I agree. That's why our choice is usually the lesser of two evils.

508 yenta-fada  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:17:10pm

re: #489 ploome hineni

You can move into cash and (shudder) T-bills. You don't have to feel passive about this mess. You are smart & can still take action. It's your hard-earned money. Do your level best to hold onto it & don't let the bastidges grind you down.

509 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:17:24pm

re: #498 buzzsawmonkey

But again, it's the Bush administration that is the source of the rush. Paulson and Bernanke sounded the alarm, and they put together the first bailout package with Pelosi, Reid, Dodd, and Franks.

510 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:17:25pm
511 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:17:58pm

re: #504 funky chicken

What I'm curious about is what happens to all those money guys in China, India and Dubai or wherever, who bought huge bundles of those securities, and are now watching their money go up in smoke.

I imagine they're not going to laugh this off.

512 yenta-fada  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:18:27pm

re: #495 rawmuse

I think you're a genius for doing that too!

513 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:18:32pm
514 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:19:18pm

re: #505 Boolz

Do you want to see the DOW at 8000?

Didn't we already see that after 9/11? Given time, it came back up. It may have SUCKED for a long while, but it did correct itself. If we could be patient with that, then we can be patient with this. But with an additional 700 billion dollars added to our already staggering national debt, to save the DOW we will have to sacrifice SOMEWHERE. Do not be surprised if oil goes through the roof through inflationary concerns (i.e. if we can't pay back the debt naturally, we'll just print out the cash). Just ask yourselves...how much did oil jump when it was first announced a bailout plan was in the works? Robbing Peter to pay Paul is NOT sound fiscal policy


The problem is not the DOW.
It is that banks are not getting paid back for the money they loaned so therefore they have no more money to loan out.

Payrolls cannot be met, inventory cannot be bought etc.
As a small business owner, I don't rely on loans to make my payroll.
HOWEVER, I do rely on builders to be able to get their construction loans in order to PAY ME.

515 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:19:22pm
516 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:20:04pm

re: #400 ibmkeyboard
Hey, I'll send ya a postcard!

517 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:20:12pm

re: #500 Walter L. Newton

TFK has been complaining about the money cult ever since I can remember.

TFK has been right all this time.

It's time to vote the bastards out. More money cult people move in- vote them out. It's still our government, if we care to keep it that way. This is what Franklin meant after the Constitution was signed:

Mrs. Powel of Philadelphia asked Benjamin Franklin,
"Well, Doctor, what have we got, a republic or a monarchy?"
With no hesitation whatsoever, Franklin responded,
"A republic, if you can keep it."

Our Founders would be appalled by the special interests. It's time for them to go.

518 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:20:36pm

re: #511 Cognito

What I'm curious about is what happens to all those money guys in China, India and Dubai or wherever, who bought huge bundles of those securities, and are now watching their money go up in smoke.

I imagine they're not going to laugh this off.

We have only a few short hours to find out.

Monday morning is sneaking up fast on us.

Tick tick tick . . .

519 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:20:46pm

re: #453 Stonemason

I think morals are relative, but that's neither here or there.


No...actually that single statement is right here, right now. That is why we are in the mess we are in, we do not have the balls to tell others they are wrong.
To let others fail and to admit that some people just do not have the drive to keep a job long enough to pay for a house.

I'm still hoping the HOUSE Republicans have the cajones to do that. We shall see.

520 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:20:47pm

re: #498 buzzsawmonkey

Been to too many time-share presentations to argue with you. Great for free vacations though.

521 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:20:57pm

re: #509 funky chicken

But again, it's the Bush administration that is the source of the rush. Paulson and Bernanke sounded the alarm, and they put together the first bailout package with Pelosi, Reid, Dodd, and Franks.

Yeah the same package they rushed through so McCain couldn't get any "credit" for it, the same one that bitch Pelosi said today was the "Bush Administration" bill and that it was bad.

I can't stand her, franks and dodd.

Franks and Dodd should be under indictment as far as I am concerned.
This mess is THEIR FAULT

522 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:21:38pm

re: #518 Syrah

We have only a few short hours to find out.

Monday morning is sneaking up fast on us.

Tick tick tick . . .

I'm not sure Monday morning is going to tell the story, really. That foreign money is just gone. Never to come back. Poof.

523 pat  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:21:45pm

re: #510 ploome hineni

Cool. Because you were a jeweler and know this stuff innately.

524 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:22:17pm

re: #504 funky chicken

My dad said he know WaMu was gonna go in the crapper way back when. He said in the last decade or so they decided to build a bunch of branches in "the ghetto" (his words) and start handing out loans to people who wouldn't/couldn't ever pay them back.

What a business model--just hand out cash to losers, and hope all your middle class customers keep depositing their paychecks in your company to hide all the losses.

Correct - since the last of the 90s - WaMu was the most aggressive with mortgages.
And keep in mind that they were being GRADED by the feds for doing exactly what they were doing - they got A+.

And when a customer wanted to move funds out of WaMu - serious stonewalling started a couple of years ago. I took that to be the canary conking out in the mine.

525 Boolz  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:22:55pm

re: #514 Typicalwhitey

sorry...I didn't quote the DOW question...it was posted by somebody else, my point was NOT to use the DOW as an argument for the bailout

526 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:23:07pm

re: #406 Dianna
Hey Dianna - could y'all e-mail me with that information that you deduce from his raw data?
I'd honestly appreciate the hell out of it if you would!

527 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:23:08pm
528 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:23:13pm

re: #503 realwest

Walter, I know this is of no comfort to you, but you are not the only one who has been there and done that.
Ageism and sexism (against White heterosexual men) is now institutionalized. I wish - honestly - that I had some sort of way to help you fix your problems, but I don't.

Oh, I fixed my problems myself, the best I could. I am really not complaining about where I am at right now. I'm just stating the facts. I maanaged to pay off everyone except the mortgage holders. I screw the goose on that one, nothing I could do about it.

I am very happy with my job, even at the pay scale I am getting and even though it could go south at any time. We are a 501(c)3, and we exist off the whims of a lot of donations, grants and some taxpayers money.

I make due, that's just my nature. That's why I am a conservative, not pure, but mostly. I take care of myself, I don't expect anyone owes me anything.

And most people here on LGF knows my story, they know that I am not whining, they know that I am making due, and I get up every day happy. Hell it bets the alternative.

529 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:23:19pm

re: #516 realwest

Hey, I'll send ya a postcard!

Postcard hell,
we will probably be packed in the same room

ha.

530 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:23:27pm

re: #522 Cognito

I'm not sure Monday morning is going to tell the story, really. That foreign money is just gone. Never to come back. Poof.

One thing to watch for will be the increase in calls to switch oil trading from Dollars to Euro's.

531 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:23:32pm

re: #514 Typicalwhitey

The problem is not the DOW.
It is that banks are not getting paid back for the money they loaned so therefore they have no more money to loan out.

Payrolls cannot be met, inventory cannot be bought etc.
As a small business owner, I don't rely on loans to make my payroll.
HOWEVER, I do rely on builders to be able to get their construction loans in order to PAY ME.

Exactly- what are millions of Americans going to do with paychecks they can't cash? How are they going to pay their bills? How are the people owed the money for those bills going to be able to pay their bills, their payroll? Where does it end?

532 merrytexas  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:23:33pm

re: #408 RTLM

hey, it's only paper! >:)

533 So?  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:23:48pm

/I'll wait for the Katie Couric synopsis

534 yenta-fada  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:24:01pm

re: #506 pat

Noooooo. Don't sell bullion. It costs as much as $1200 per ounce to mine. Very cash hungry business where new reserves have to be found constantly. High energy costs to get gold out of the ground & labor force has been decimated by a twenty year slump in the price of gold. Please. Don't. Sell. Your. Gold. Demand exceeds supply every year.

535 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:24:05pm

re: #492 pat

Right--the SEC eliminated that uptick rule months ago, and didn't do the mark to market thingie when it could have done some good. Nothing illegal, but certainly incompetent.

I was just responding to buzzsawmonkey's concern that this whole thing was a libdem conspiracy to defund the war effort. I don't think that's the case. I think we have the result of years of forcing banks to write mortgages for bums, and other kinds of stuff, and incompetence, etc and so forth.

Should it have been illegal? well, probably. But ... oh well

536 rawmuse  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:24:51pm

re: #515 ploome hineni

#495 rawmuse

what did you buy at?

There was a shop in Union Square called Deak International. You could walk up to the teller with cash (or your credit card) and buy US Eagles, Canadian Maple Leaf, and Krugerands, et al. I was buying them under $300 each, in 1 oz coins. I have about 25 now, different kinds, all minted around the early 90s.

537 So?  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:24:54pm

So who won? The rich or the poor?

538 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:25:39pm

re: #530 Syrah

One thing to watch for will be the increase in calls to switch oil trading from Dollars to Euro's.

Yikes.

Although I do understand the Euro is in trouble.

539 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:26:25pm
540 So?  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:26:30pm

...and the winner is Dubai, China & Saudi Arabia

541 Carridine  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:26:32pm

I'm seeing a LOT of wisdom in BuzzSaw's observation: When those who HAD THE POWER to avoid this problem NOW URGE UTMOST HASTE...

...it smells stinks like a scam, a hustle, a rip-off!

Urge Congress to set up something small, immediate for Payroll Payouts (to keep Joe and Jane Small afloat) then HAMMER OUT a real deal!

Name names, get real, reform NOW!

542 So?  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:27:15pm

re: #539 ploome hineni

#506 pat

Mint stops selling popular gold coin

There's always gold fillings. Pull out your teeth now!

543 Typicalwhitey  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:27:20pm

re: #531 Sharmuta

Exactly- what are millions of Americans going to do with paychecks they can't cash? How are they going to pay their bills? How are the people owed the money for those bills going to be able to pay their bills, their payroll? Where does it end?

This is why the bailout is a neccesary evil.
I don't like it, but I can't see an alternative right now.

544 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:27:24pm
545 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:27:39pm

re: #537 So?

So who won? The rich or the poor?

Both are losing. The race is on, give it a few days. The opening bell Monday morning to the closing bell on Friday.

Place your bets early.

The Racing Form may not help much in this go round.

546 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:27:44pm

re: #537 So?

So who won? The rich or the poor?

In my opinion, I'll give you a clue, it's initials are r.i.c.h.

547 Marvo76  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:28:30pm

re: #494 Syrah

Hmmm. . .

Smells like opportunity.

If they are walking away, that means that they are likely to be cheap for picking up on the other side.

I bought a HUD foreclosure. It allowed me a +20% discount over the going rate for the neighboring properties. These walkaways have to be valuable for some kind of resale price.

devaluation of assests, who looses and who pays the bill for the difference? Now if I can get my ducks in a row for when land prices are coming down, I might be able to get out of my place and out in the boonies....

548 Boolz  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:28:45pm

the amount a bank has on hand from its own coffers is NOT the same as what a business has in its corporate accounts...the amount in own bank accounts (up to a point anyway) is not dependent on your banks liquidity. FDIC, anybody?

549 So?  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:28:47pm

re: #543 Typicalwhitey

This is why the bailout is a neccesary evil.
I don't like it, but I can't see an alternative right now.

Alternative>Monopoly money. Always worked for me.

550 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:28:48pm
551 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:29:00pm

re: #483 pat

Bush tried to pass 17 bills to prevent this, each one blocked by Doods, oops, I mean Dodds, and Frank.
(MSM response: "Financial crises layed at Bush's feet. Non-bipartisan approach spells disaster for America".

You are right about that. But how on earth did Paulson and Bush let Reid and Pelosi make Dodd and Franks the front men for the dems on the negotiating team for the bailout last week? Dodd and Franks had Paulson's ear for days, and helped construct the first administration proposal....and then the GOP and McCain got invited to a meeting.

The whole thing just doesn't add up...honestly, I can't make heads or tails of it.

552 HelloDare  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:29:22pm

re: #518 Syrah

We have only a few short hours to find out.

Monday morning is sneaking up fast on us.

Tick tick tick . . .

Asian/Pacific Indices

553 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:29:28pm

re: #414 Cartman
Gee, I'd a thought you'd gotten my point! LOL!
Peter doesn't want to be responsible for the mess he inherited. As if we, the Baby Boomers, wanted to be responsible for the mess we inherited - the COLD WAR, Vietnam, having to work your way through college, no special "GI" home loans and even the GI Bill was gutted by the Greatest Generation from the GI Bill that they had the benefit of.
Well, we did OUR JOBS. WE Conquered space; we made advances in modern medicine, in agriculture, in safer mining and industry and in home contstruction too.
But mostly the Baby Boomer Generation made ABSOLTUELY CERTAIN THAT NO AMERICANS WOULD EVERY HAVE TO FIGHT IN A WAR UNLESS THEY VOLUNTEERED FOR IT.
And that is a very, very good thing.

554 So?  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:29:46pm

re: #546 Walter L. Newton

In my opinion, I'll give you a clue, it's initials are r.i.c.h.

As in Ritchie Rich? My hero. Needed a scooter to traverse his mansion.

555 ploome hineni[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:29:52pm
556 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:30:55pm

re: #540 So?

...and the winner is Dubai, China & Saudi Arabia

I don't know,
China bought a lot of this worthless loan paper.

I guess they can put lead in it and try to sell it back.

557 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:31:29pm

In the day, I used to venture into commodities trading. Can't afford it now. But there is money to be made if you can take the risk. Up or down.

558 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:31:49pm

re: #552 HelloDare

Asian/Pacific Indices

And their off!

If the keep going in that direction, it could be an ugly weak.

559 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:32:19pm

re: #558 Syrah

And their off!

If the keep going in that direction, it could be an ugly weak.

I can't help but think they're just biding their time, at the moment.

560 So?  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:32:22pm

re: #556 ibmkeyboard

I don't know,
China bought a lot of this worthless loan paper.

I guess they can put lead in it and try to sell it back.

LOL. They probably will or slip it into some new Soya Milk concoction.

561 William  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:33:18pm

re: #345 realwest

Um, you do know, don't you, that a lot of mortgage foreclosures are also now occuring because people have lost their jobs over the last ten years or more, at accelerating paces (and yes we've created a lot of jobs during that time period, but you can't replace a $60,000 annual income by being a WalMart Greeter or flipping burgers at name the fast food store of your choice).


Then it's time for them to sell the house and rent.

Taxpayers shouldn't be picking up the tab for anyone's reduced mortgage principal or interest.

562 So?  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:33:36pm

re: #558 Syrah

And their off!

If the keep going in that direction, it could be an ugly weak.

...ugly weak >was that a Freudian slip or a look intuition working overtime

563 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:34:30pm

re: #543 Typicalwhitey

This is why the bailout is a neccesary evil.
I don't like it, but I can't see an alternative right now.

I feel ill.

564 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:34:48pm

re: #524 Bobibutu

Correct - since the last of the 90s - WaMu was the most aggressive with mortgages.
And keep in mind that they were being GRADED by the feds for doing exactly what they were doing - they got A+.

And when a customer wanted to move funds out of WaMu - serious stonewalling started a couple of years ago. I took that to be the canary conking out in the mine.

sounds like Obama's "Patriotic Corporations Act" in a way, doesn't it?

565 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:35:10pm

interesting site "landmark" dropped in here, yet i can't make sense of who's speaking to whom

566 So?  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:36:14pm

re: #565 willowone

interesting site "landmark" dropped in here, yet i can't make sense of who's speaking to whom

it all depends on who's on first.

567 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:37:14pm

re: #457 Bobibutu
HUH?!

568 Opilio  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:37:29pm

re: #503 realwest

Walter, I know this is of no comfort to you, but you are not the only one who has been there and done that.
Ageism and sexism (against White heterosexual men) is now institutionalized. I wish - honestly - that I had some sort of way to help you fix your problems, but I don't.

I found myself on the short end of that particular stick last year. 27 years with the same company... Downsized right out the door, a few months shy of eligibility for retirement benefits (meager as they were).

And the demographics of the group I was "downsized" with?
• 100% White,
• 100% American citizens
• 90% male,
• 100% age 40+ (75% age 45+)

Demographics of remaining employees:
• 45% White
• 70% American citizens
• 30% H1Bs, green card holders
• 55/45 female/male
• median age: 30 +/- 2

Percent of my "layoff class" still looking for comparable work after a year: ~20%

569 Intrepid  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:37:35pm

re: #498 buzzsawmonkey

I saw this while ago, and even though it's not about financials but about Obama's (un)official Foreign Policy adviser (Zbigniew Brzezinski, of Carter era fame) and an interview he did 10 years ago in France, I'm beginning to think that anything is possible with liberal dems.

The Good Stuff Starts Right At 3 Minutes

It's a bit longish (9 minutes), but I was stunned.

570 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:38:23pm

re: #548 Boolz

the amount a bank has on hand from its own coffers is NOT the same as what a business has in its corporate accounts...the amount in own bank accounts (up to a point anyway) is not dependent on your banks liquidity. FDIC, anybody?

But the bank's liquidity affects their ability to give their customers cash.

571 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:39:06pm

re: #564 funky chicken

sounds like Obama's "Patriotic Corporations Act" in a way, doesn't it?

Yes - ever expanding. Has kind of a Marxist ring to it don't you think?

572 willowone  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:39:24pm

so tired i don't think i can make any sense of it.
sleep well all .

573 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:40:04pm

re: #559 Cognito

I can't help but think they're just biding their time, at the moment.

You may be right.

I think what we are seeing from that wash of red is that there are some doubts, not certainties, but doubts all the same.

The madness of crowds is not always rational.

Waiting for New York to open, and see what it all looks like two hours in. They will have been up early, if they have slept at all, trying to figure out which way to run with what they heard from the press conferences and from having read the bill.

Is this the bottom? If not, how far before we hit it? Should I sell everything left in my portfolio hoping to pick it all back up after it tanks even lower? Or should I close my eyes tight and try to ride it out?

The madness of crowds . . .

tick tick tick . . .

574 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:40:27pm

* Somehow it seemed as though the farm had grown richer without making the animals themselves any richer— except, of course, for the pigs and the dogs.
* Four legs good, two legs better!
* ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS.
* The creatures outside looked from pig democrat to man republican, and from man republican to pig democrat, and from pig democrat to man republican again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

Power to the Correct People!
(They are Americans first.)

575 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:42:04pm

re: #573 Syrah

If I had to guess, I'd say buying or selling -- or both -- is a matter of chaos theory, in the short term. In the long term -- a decade, say -- I think you'd do better to hang on and ride it out.

576 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:42:10pm

re: #561 William

Then it's time for them to sell the house and rent.

Taxpayers shouldn't be picking up the tab for anyone's reduced mortgage principal or interest.


Just as soon as I can find a sucker buyer.

Its a nice house, but it is not worth the 250 thousand.

Central air needs replacing- septic tank- wiring- pipes- etc.

But hey!
You can see grandfather mountain off the porch.


watch that rotted floor.

577 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:42:18pm

re: #522 Cognito

I'm not sure Monday morning is going to tell the story, really. That foreign money is just gone. Never to come back. Poof.

No, it will be back.

Cog, everyone: remember, the bad loans are a minority. They are causing a crisis, right enough. But...well, the majority of loans keep chugging right along, paying by the month. Out of 100 $4,000/mo mortgages, 86 are still paying (and that's being insanely pessimistic, btw).

That money has to go somewhere. The mattress can only hold so much, and it just kills banks and investors to sit on money that's not working.

$344,000 per month (very conservatively) is washing into banking coffers. The majority of that is interest, i.e., more than return of capital.

So, eventually...that money has to be loaned out and put to work. The investors are like addicts, or men in love with bad women. They can't stay away.

I don't expect the wild round we just saw to resume. I do, however, think it's ridiculous to believe that the gloom will go on forever.

578 Opilio  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:43:05pm

re: #558 Syrah

And their off!

If the keep going in that direction, it could be an ugly weak.


Hey, at least Malaysia's up...

579 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:43:25pm

suckersucker hit the wrong web print

580 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:43:55pm

re: #526 realwest

Be happy to.

It will probably be my conclusions - I don't think I can show you too much of my friend's product.

Is that OK?

581 Irish Rose  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:44:25pm

I see that Barry the Savior of all mankind is gleefully rushing to take all of the credit for bailing out Wall Street with this miserable monstrosity of a bill that is universally hated by those of us who live on "main street" (IOW, 99.9 percent of the voting public).

Geeze, talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

WASHINGTON -- Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama said Sunday his Republican rival deserves no credit for helping to forge a tentative agreement on the $700 billion bailout of Wall Street.

Instead, Obama said he deserves credit for making sure the proposal includes safeguards for taxpayers.

"Here are the facts: For two weeks I was on the phone everyday with Secretary Paulson and the congressional leaders making sure that the principles that have been ultimately adopted were incorporated in the bill," Obama said.

McCain is wisely taking none of the credit, saying "I'll let you and others decide".


On the left, we have an inexperienced, insecure, grandiose raging narcissist whose default setting is "whine", a man who demands respect without having to earn it, craves public adoration like a crack addict craves a fix, and will do absolutely anything to get them.

On the right we have a wise old fox, a seasoned leader with vastly superior experience who has quietly earned his stripes and doesn't need validation from anyone... a man who knows when to speak, and when to stay quiet and let his opponent hang himself.

Compare and contrast.

582 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:46:06pm

re: #581 Irish Rose

Stop being such a racist. ;p

583 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:46:19pm

re: #568 Opilio

I found myself on the short end of that particular stick last year. 27 years with the same company... Downsized right out the door, a few months shy of eligibility for retirement benefits (meager as they were).

And the demographics of the group I was "downsized" with?
• 100% White,
• 100% American citizens
• 90% male,
• 100% age 40+ (75% age 45+)

Demographics of remaining employees:
• 45% White
• 70% American citizens
• 30% H1Bs, green card holders
• 55/45 female/male
• median age: 30 +/- 2

Percent of my "layoff class" still looking for comparable work after a year: ~20%

But I bet the stock price and dividends went up, so hey, it was a good move for America, right?

I first became disgusted with Wall Street back in the Clinton administration when I noticed that every time a major manufacturer closed a huge factory in the US and moved it to China, the stock would go way, way up, and Wall Street analysts would come on TV or the radio and cheer about how great it all was, etc.

But those small towns, lots of them in the US South ... and those families whose income came from those jobs? terrible.

anyway, I'm off to bed. good night.

584 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:46:53pm

re: #568 Opilio

Percent of my "layoff class" still looking for comparable work after a year: ~20%

I know. I started on this trek a little over 4 years ago. At first, I was taking some short term contracts, but I was never sure of the NEXT job, I had to sit on my money becuase I never knew if my downtime would be 1 month or 6 months. And during that time, I sent out over 800 resumes, looking for a full time job.

After 3 years of this off and on, part time contract work, when the theatre job was offered to me, I took it. Why? Not because of the money, that was only 18 thousand a years (I was making 80 thousand a year). It was becuase at least I knew that I had a job to go to, day after day, week after week. At least I could relax a little, not spending every hour of my free time looking for the next job.

It's working for me. But it is a paycheck to paycheck situation. Even the recruiters that I was working with told me, off the record of course, that it was age-ism, plain and simple and there was nothing I could do about it.

585 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:47:04pm

re: #577 Dianna

No, no, I don't believe the gloom will go one forever. I'm saying the baron from Dubai who bought fraudulently rated tranches of toxic loans from Wall Street is now watching his money shoveled into the furnace.

I don't believe the bailout applies to foreign money, right?

586 Boolz  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:47:44pm

re: #570 Sharmuta

you sure you want to go there? To suggest that, would that be tantamount to suggesting FDIC isn't viable also? Golly, gee whiz, I wonder what the bailout cost of that would be? "In order to maintain your current bank balance x, your federal government credit card balance will go up y (plus interest). Please be assured that this in every way makes sense, and it's for your own good"

587 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:48:05pm

re: #529 ibmkeyboard
LOL! Hey, hi ya roomie! Whatca in for?! You say you're a Vietnam Vet and "too old"? Hey, so am I - let's blow this joint up! See what they can build in it's place!

588 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:48:05pm

re: #573 Syrah

Is this the bottom?

No.

If not, how far before we hit it?

No one knows or can accurately predict.

Should I sell everything left in my portfolio hoping to pick it all back up after it tanks even lower?

Depends on your goals, tax bracket and liability for this year, age, health, etc.

Or should I close my eyes tight and try to ride it out?

Depends on your risk tolerance.

The madness of crowds . . .
Yep ... I prefer to opt out.

tick tick tick . . .

589 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:48:43pm

This entire situation sucks, I mean it REALLY, REALLY SUCKS. How did we arrive at this point? Nations don't disappear they commit suicide. Remember that.

590 Irish Rose  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:49:07pm

re: #582 Sharmuta

Stop being such a racist. ;p

Piss up a rope, Sharm ;).

591 funky chicken  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:49:10pm

re: #581 Irish Rose

I see that Barry the Savior of all mankind is gleefully rushing to take all of the credit for bailing out Wall Street with this miserable monstrosity of a bill that is universally hated by those of us who live on "main street" (IOW, 99.9 percent of the voting public).

Geeze, talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

McCain is wisely taking none of the credit, saying "I'll let you and others decide".


On the left, we have an inexperienced, insecure, grandiose raging narcissist whose default setting is "whine", a man who demands respect without having to earn it, craves public adoration like a crack addict craves a fix, and will do absolutely anything to get them.

On the right we have a wise old fox, a seasoned leader with vastly superior experience who has quietly earned his stripes and doesn't need validation from anyone... a man who knows when to speak, and when to stay quiet and let his opponent hang himself.

Compare and contrast.

Thank you Irish Rose. I surely hope you are right, and hope that Barry's obnoxious and immature rush to greedily grasp at what he sees as his gold ring will be obvious to enough voters to lose him the election.

especially the blue collar Hillary voters ...

thanks for the cheering thought before I'm off to bed

592 Dianna  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:49:20pm

Goodnight!

Breathe, folks!

593 Boolz  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:50:08pm

I may not have a degree in finance, but I sure know what a SCAM smells like

594 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:51:29pm

re: #561 William
Gee ya know what - that's what I did! I sold my condo, at a big loss, and now I'm renting!
BTW, if you don't mind, how old are you?

595 IslandLibertarian  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:53:03pm

#574
Dinged down for quoting Orwell's Animal Farm........at LGF............
UN-FUCKING=BELIEVABLE!

596 RTLM  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:53:42pm
597 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:54:16pm

re: #568 Opilio
WOW! You mean 80% of your layoff class found comparable paying jobs?
Too bad you weren't gay, cause then they wouldn't have fired you!

598 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:54:22pm

re: #575 Cognito

If I had to guess, I'd say buying or selling -- or both -- is a matter of chaos theory, in the short term. In the long term -- a decade, say -- I think you'd do better to hang on and ride it out.

If the worse comes to pass, I will not starve, nor will I freeze in the wild.

I am curious to see what happens with the oil trading.

If it is switched to trading in Euros, what effect will that have on the dollar? What affect will that switch have on the markets? How can anyone have confidence in the Euro beyond the short term?

Beyond the bad politics and the injustice of it all, the game is still interesting.

599 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:54:43pm

re: #589 MrPaulRevere

This entire situation sucks, I mean it REALLY, REALLY SUCKS. How did we arrive at this point?

I'm not sure if you're genuinely asking, but if so, here's the short version:

1. A lot of money spread around the world in the past decade or so. (Who manufactured the computer you're looking at?)

2. A lot of that money was stupid, and looking for a place to park.

3. Home prices kept rising in America.

4. Wall Street was greedy, realized it could park the stupid money in high-risk mortgage-backed securities. Bundles of loans, basically.

5. Those securities tottered along fine for a while, appearing to perform well, because home prices did indeed keep rising. People took out home equity loans, even, to make their first mortgages.

6. Surprise. The bubble burst. No more price rises. No more mortgage payments. Chaos and destruction. Sackcloth and ash.

I'm sure some smarter money people here will swiftly correct me or add to this snapshot, which I welcome.

600 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:54:48pm

re: #587 realwest

LOL! Hey, hi ya roomie! Whatca in for?! You say you're a Vietnam Vet and "too old"? Hey, so am I - let's blow this joint up! See what they can build in it's place!

Ha.

later Bro.

I think I will walk around the house at 2 o'clock this morning.

Maybe shoot a possum- taste much better than road kill.

/have you seen the price of steak these days?

tomorrow will be a better day,
I have nowhere to go but up.

601 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:56:13pm

re: #580 Dianna
That would be perfect - I didn't expect you to reveal to me your friends "raw data" anyway! Thank you very much!

602 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:56:33pm

re: #595 IslandLibertarian

#574
Dinged down for quoting Orwell's Animal Farm........at LGF............
UN-=BELIEVABLE!


I forgot to bump you up.

have one.

603 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:56:49pm

From CNN

The federal government would provide up to $700 billion to rescue the nation's troubled financial system, according to a bill unveiled Sunday. "We sent a message to Wall Street - the party is over," said House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-California. Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, said he believes the Senate can move on the legislation by Wednesday, CNNMoney.com reports

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

"The party is over." What the fuck is she talking about? Yea, I always end my parties by giving the guests 700 billion as they walk out the door.

Boy, if anyone doesn't think that we haven't been scammed, I got a free seat on the next shuttle flight for ya, just email me.

604 Irish Rose  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:57:45pm

re: #591 funky chicken

Thank you Irish Rose. I surely hope you are right, and hope that Barry's obnoxious and immature rush to greedily grasp at what he sees as his gold ring will be obvious to enough voters to lose him the election.

especially the blue collar Hillary voters ...

The PUMA's are pissed too.

The more that I read from these ladies, that more pleased I am that we have them on board this election cycle.

605 gop_patriot  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:58:14pm

re: #596 RTLM

Pic of the day

GAG

607 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:58:25pm

re: #581 Irish Rose
Hi Rose! Gee, I coulda sworn a Fox Newscaster said that both Obama and McCain voted for the bill (to go to Congress).

608 ibmkeyboard  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 10:58:44pm

re: #596 RTLM

Pic of the day

I can only dream of having my hands around that dumb bastards neck.

609 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:00:26pm

re: #585 Cognito

No, no, I don't believe the gloom will go one forever. I'm saying the baron from Dubai who bought fraudulently rated tranches of toxic loans from Wall Street is now watching his money shoveled into the furnace.

I don't believe the bailout applies to foreign money, right?

What do you mean foreign money? Money be money. It does apply to foreign banks and other holders of our bad debt, and why not.

610 Intrepid  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:00:56pm

re: #604 Irish Rose

The PUMA's are pissed too.

The more that I read from these ladies, that more pleased I am that we have them on board this election cycle.

I have that site as an open tab between Hot Air and Lucianne's. It's a good read, and they sure understand activism!

611 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:02:09pm

re: #609 itellu3times

What do you mean foreign money? Money be money. It does apply to foreign banks and other holders of our bad debt, and why not.

Does it? Fascinating.

Well. I guess the ratings were correct, then: "Money good."

For what it's worth, by the time ride stops.

612 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:02:58pm

re: #600 ibmkeyboard
Take care my friend - yeah, I sure hope tomorrow will be a better day........for both of us.

613 Intrepid  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:04:14pm

One quote I did see over at Michelle Malkin's site that could be used in a great ad done by the RNC is this one:

The Republican Study Committee has put out on analysis. The committee points out that the bill “increases the limit statutory debt limit from $10.615 trillion to $11.315 trillion, an increase of 6.6%. If enacted, the 110th Congress will have presided over three debt limit increases—a total of $2.33 trillion or 26.2%.

Who was the majority party of the 110th Congress, the one that raised our national debt by 26 percent?

It certainly wasn't the Amish.

614 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:06:13pm

re: #599 Cognito

I'm aware of all the talking points, left, right, whatever. A calamity of this magnitude speaks volumes about the nature of our society, the willingness of the electorate to vote for morons, the level that political correctness has corrupted our decision making, and our tolerance for incompetent leadership. The point is, this crisis speaks volumes about America.

615 itellu3times  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:06:38pm

re: #599 Cognito

It will take years to figure this out, and then people can keep arguing about their favorite conspiracy theories anyway.

There were many factors that fed into each other but clearly, our leaders in both public and private sectors failed to keep things even marginally under control, and many mistakes were made, especially the mark-to-market rule. An entire spectrum of financial theories behind selling risk, are probably obsolete.

Blaming this on the housing bubble is like blaming 9/11 on US imperialism.

616 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:07:02pm

re: #604 Irish Rose
Whoa, LOVED what the comments were at PUMA!
Hope there's enough of them to help McCain win!

617 Spirit93  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:08:31pm

re: #445 ibmkeyboard

I loved the debate part where McCain said he knew 2 years ago we were headed for a train wreck.
And Obamma agreed, and said he had sent a letter to the Treasury and others that the train wreck was coming.
Funny-
No one told the American citizens.

I'd like to see that letter. I'd like to know what solution (probably none) he proposed. Somehow I don't expect any proposed solution involved pulling back on loans to poor people, which is the fundamental cause of this problem.

Any letter he wrote was just CYA. The reality is that Obama is hip deep in this crap (money from fannie, advisers from fannie, etc) and would never reel any of it in.

618 Cognito  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:09:31pm

re: #615 itellu3times


Blaming this on the housing bubble is like blaming 9/11 on US imperialism.

First of all: That's utter claptrap. How dare you invoke September 11 for such an argument?

Second: I'm not blaming the housing bubble. I'm blaming hideously stupid decisions. The housing bubble only kept things afloat for a bit longer; it didn't cause the trouble.

619 RTLM  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:09:45pm

OT - NYT notices something wrong in the Gulf of Aden.
Russian crew member dies on Ukrainian ship

(shocked)

620 realwest  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:10:32pm

Well all y'all it's certainly been an informative and interesting night. But I gotta get some sleep!
I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you down the road!

Goodnight all.

621 Intrepid  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:12:40pm

re: #620 realwest

'Nite Real! Sleep well.

622 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:12:59pm

re: #604 Irish Rose

The PUMA's are pissed too.

The more that I read from these ladies, that more pleased I am that we have them on board this election cycle.

God bless them- seriously. If we didn't have them, I would be truly frightened for this country.

623 Irish Rose  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:16:39pm

re: #622 Sharmuta

God bless them- seriously. If we didn't have them, I would be truly frightened for this country.

I love this comment:

If he could Obama would take credit for his own conception and birth.

624 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:18:34pm

re: #592 Dianna

Goodnight!

Breathe, folks!

Breathe in the air

Long time to wait for a music segway. Just trying to lighten the load, but then I've been here too long today.

625 gop_patriot  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:20:17pm

On a brighter note, An American Carol starts next Friday, October 3rd.

Holy crap it looks funny! The trailer had me laughing out loud.

626 Opilio  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:21:03pm

re: #597 realwest

WOW! You mean 80% of your layoff class found comparable paying jobs?
Too bad you weren't gay, cause then they wouldn't have fired you!

I'm not entirely sure how to respond to that part, so I won't.

By comparable, I'm being a little generous. In my situation, my base salary is lower, less than half as many vacation days, fewer ancillary benefits. In terms of "overall compensation" as they like to call it, I'm probably down 20%, but I consider myself fortunate at that.

627 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:21:09pm

re: #623 Irish Rose

That was pretty funny. But at this point, I am banking on hell having no fury like a democrat woman scorned. May they be the decisive factor in this election.

628 Irish Rose  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:24:25pm
629 Blax GOP  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:26:12pm

Not quite OT, but damn good reading from AmSpec, as always.

A rather interesting read on Obama backers, and the ties to the current government buy-up of defaulted sub prime mortgage mess.

As the donkey's-as-sheep like to bleat; "Follow The Money.." well this is true...UNLESS it leads to a wannabe President and his radical chic ilk.


[Link: gallery.mac.com...]

Link to AmSpec complete article

[Link: www.spectator.org...]

630 Inquisitive  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:26:28pm

re: #502 Bobibutu

[Link: solari.com...]

Proposed $700 Billion Bailout Is Too Little, Too Late to End the Debt Crisis; Too Much, Too Soon for the U.S. Bond Market
By Martin D. Weiss & Michael D. Larson (24 Sep 2008)
Submitted to U.S. Congress, Senate Banking Committee, House Financial Services

* Note: This document includes a current list of troubled banks and information on how to find bank ratings.

Thank you for posting this.....it is very interesting.....and a banker I was speaking with few days ago was discussing the fact...as stated in this report... of not enough moneys in FDIC to cover all the Banks. He was also pointing out that the next problem will be with all the big banks with the Credit cards..like Chase....because the people who have been living off of them.. paying their mortgages and other loans... is not going to be able to pay these large credit card bills before to long and start defaulting on them.
I was surprised to see a Bank from my area on the list of.... Appendix C. U.S. Banks and Thrifts Believed to Be at Risk of Failure......it has a D- rating.

631 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:26:32pm

Kill the Bill

Funny thing is i'm watching vol. 1 on TNT as we speak converse, type, relate, vent.

632 Alberta Oil Peon  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:26:38pm

re: #619 RTLM

OT - NYT notices something wrong in the Gulf of Aden.
Russian crew member dies on Ukrainian ship

(shocked)

Well, there is a Russian warship on its way to deal with that situation. Methinks it would be wise for the American destroyer to simply stand off and watch the pretty fireworks. In the unlikely event it goes badly for the Russians, they can sail in like a white knight, and put out the fire. "Coming to the aid of a sister democracy (cackle, snort)" and all that.

There is also the Iranian ship with the mystery cargo that make pirates' hair fall out. That's a little more worrisome. All in all, it's not a good time to be a Somali pirate.

633 Angleton  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:26:58pm

Bailout Details:

A slice of bread.

A generous portion of crap.

On other slice of bread.

634 SummerSong  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:29:21pm

re: #410 Peter Verkooijen

Peter, since you have mentioned it, why is it that you are 36 and have no assessts? Why can't you vote?

635 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:29:50pm

re: #628 Irish Rose

OMG look!
Hannity just linked Obama to the financial crisis!

BINGO! It starts .... finally.

636 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:33:03pm
637 freedombilly  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:34:00pm

Freakin' scary.

638 Mel Lono  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:35:16pm

re: #632 Alberta Oil Peon

Well, there is a Russian warship on its way to deal with that situation. Methinks it would be wise for the American destroyer to simply stand off and watch the pretty fireworks. In the unlikely event it goes badly for the Russians, they can sail in like a white knight, and put out the fire. "Coming to the aid of a sister democracy (cackle, snort)" and all that.

There is also the Iranian ship with the mystery cargo that make pirates' hair fall out. That's a little more worrisome. All in all, it's not a good time to be a Somali pirate.

Chemical warfare anyone?.

Why is it that this story has gotten no attention whatsoever, except for the notation that "20 other ships" are being held hostage.

639 LeePro  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:36:35pm

re: #628 Irish Rose

OMG look!
Hannity just linked Obama to the financial crisis!


OMG! This is EXACTLY what I was telling my husband three days ago! ! !

But wait...! There's more! Look at the related videos in the right hand sidebar!

640 MrPaulRevere  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:36:44pm

re: #599 Cognito

And by the way, I resent your condescending tone.

641 gop_patriot  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:39:21pm

re: #628 Irish Rose

OMG look!
Hannity just linked Obama to the financial crisis!

Wow. That's a very clear and understandable breakdown of the current situation and Obama's connection- an especially good one to send to people who might not read LGF.

642 Inquisitive  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:41:25pm

re: #638 Mel Lono

Chemical warfare anyone?.

Why is it that this story has gotten no attention whatsoever, except for the notation that "20 other ships" are being held hostage.


Did you read this thread from earlier today.........

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

643 neocon hippie  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:44:23pm

I'm just getting here, skimmed the comments, trying to digest something I never understood all that well. My metaphor or shorthand is this: Over the last four decades the left in all its forms has been eating away at the foundations of the American body politic in all its aspects. The long march through our institutions being the principal form. But the infection in our financial structure has been even more insidious and potentially devastating. It started with a perhaps well-intentioned but typically thoughtless and deranged liberal idea of using the government to social engineer "fairness" in housing. Hence the issuing of these sub-prime mortgages to people who couldn't possibly pay them back. These bad loans were/are like a computer virus or bad code that then got propagated throughout the financial system, ate away at its integrity and foundations, corrupted value on a systemic level. How the heck can we purge the system of this bad code and restore it to health? I suppose the bailout could be some kind of temporary bandage, symptomatic medicine as it worse. But who the hell could possibly predict the longterm effects?

Make sense?

We live in very strange times.

644 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:45:01pm

re: #630 Inquisitive

Thank you for posting this.....it is very interesting.....and a banker I was speaking with few days ago was discussing the fact...as stated in this report... of not enough moneys in FDIC to cover all the Banks. He was also pointing out that the next problem will be with all the big banks with the Credit cards..like Chase....because the people who have been living off of them.. paying their mortgages and other loans... is not going to be able to pay these large credit card bills before to long and start defaulting on them.
I was surprised to see a Bank from my area on the list of.... Appendix C. U.S. Banks and Thrifts Believed to Be at Risk of Failure......it has a D- rating.

You are welcome. And right behind that will be Life Insurance. Because it is and has been legal to develop products that legally permit unrealistic sales illustrations. i.e., 7.5% to 12% (pie in the sky) vs 5.25% (long term reality). Bogle and Buffett both warn about unrealistic expectations on returns from here out. Yet the Insurance companies, unfortunately, have increased this practice.

I'm not saying all are bad. Just be careful when someone shows you a projection using anything over a 5.25% rate even when looking at historical back-testing of the market data.

645 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:45:07pm

Burning Down The House: What Caused Our Economic Crisis?

Views: 802,514

About double from yesterday. Perhaps this video is going viral?

646 Irish Rose  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:45:58pm

re: #635 Bobibutu

BINGO! It starts .... finally.

Indeed.
I just sent Charles the link, I hope he puts it up.

647 Sharmuta  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:47:25pm

re: #645 Sharmuta

442,014 views yesterday. I know because both Syrah & I posted the number.

That's 360,500 views since last night.

648 Bobibutu  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:47:28pm

re: #638 Mel Lono

Chemical warfare anyone?.

Why is it that this story has gotten no attention whatsoever, except for the notation that "20 other ships" are being held hostage.

We went at this hammer and tongs earlier - if the symptoms were reported correctly it does not match chemicals - rather radiation.

649 abolitionist  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:48:00pm

re: #628 Irish Rose

OMG look!
Hannity just linked Obama to the financial crisis!

The tingle in his leg just stopped.

650 LeePro  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:48:47pm

re: #638 Mel Lono

Chemical warfare anyone?.

Why is it that this story has gotten no attention whatsoever, except for the notation that "20 other ships" are being held hostage.

No attention whatsoever...? ? ?
Little Green Footballs, around noon today.

651 RTLM  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:49:53pm

re: #632 Alberta Oil Peon

Well, there is a Russian warship on its way to deal with that situation. Methinks it would be wise for the American destroyer to simply stand off and watch the pretty fireworks. In the unlikely event it goes badly for the Russians, they can sail in like a white knight, and put out the fire. "Coming to the aid of a sister democracy (cackle, snort)" and all that.

There is also the Iranian ship with the mystery cargo that make pirates' hair fall out. That's a little more worrisome. All in all, it's not a good time to be a Somali pirate.

It is ironic that the Somali Pirates have stopped an Iranian hazmat ship and a shipment of heavy arms from getting near Sudan - as the times claims.

Andrew Mwangura of the East African Seafarers' Assistance Program said on Sunday the Somali pirates claim to be in possession of confidential documents showing that the arms were actually destined for southern Sudan and not Kenya.

Mwangura said that the hijacked ship-MV Faina was ferrying the fourth such consignment from Ukrainian to southern Sudan.

"One of the cargo arrived at the port of Mombasa in October last year, two in February this year. The seized load of 33 Russian-built T-72 tanks and some ammunition was the fourth cargo with military equipment for southern Sudan," Mwangura told Xinhua by telephone on Sunday.


/Quite a good bit of coast guarding there.

The USS Howard is there to maintain a presence between the Ukrainian freighter and the Somali ports.

This is the frigate the Russians have sent
[Link: upload.wikimedia.org...]

652 gop_patriot  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:50:17pm

re: #632 Alberta Oil Peon

There is also the Iranian ship with the mystery cargo that make pirates' hair fall out. That's a little more worrisome. All in all, it's not a good time to be a Somali pirate.

You know, I'm not mocking the situation, and I pray and hope that our military guys and everyone involved in this gets out safely... but the whole thing is like something from a B movie. From an article at FoxNews.com, this:

MOGADISHU, Somalia — As a heavily armed U.S. destroyer patrolled nearby and planes flew overhead Sunday, a Somali pirate spokesman told The Associated Press his group was demanding a $20 million ransom to release a cargo ship loaded with Russian tanks.

That strikes me as so funny for some reason. A "Somali pirate spokesman". Who knew that pirates had spokesmen? I wonder why they didn't choose the more politically correct, "Somali pirate spokesperson"? Personally, I favor "Somali SpokesPirate"... X)

653 gop_patriot  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:50:40pm

re: #650 LeePro

Hiya, Lee! :) We meet again...

654 Syrah  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:53:57pm
655 Spirit93  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:55:32pm

re: #652 gop_patriot

lol.
Undoubtedly a PR professional.

656 Bogeyfre  Sun, Sep 28, 2008 11:55:44pm

No Bailout!

Why must we reward bad decisions? Bad decisions where made at all levels, from our government leaders to the people who defaulted on the house next door. Do not reward them by wiping the slate clean or even reducing the obligation. Rewarding bad decisions virtually guarantee's future bad decisions. We must seek out the people who are responsible and hold them accountable.

I do not trust my government to fix this problem. Our government has created and managed so many FAILED programs, too numerous to name, why should I believe they are gonna get this one right? Time and time again we have been told that money will be spent one way only to find out that they, through little known creative writing in legislation, allowed themselves to spend it another and did so.

I do not pretend to fully understand the entire scope of the problems we are facing. However I fully understand that rewarding bad decisions and allowing our government to be a part of the fix will ultimately cause us significantly more pain in the future.

If everything crashes and all hell breaks loose by doing nothing, which many do not believe will happen, than I place my confidence in the American people to come together and demand heads, demand laws be changed, demand a permanent solution be found. It may be the only way we find a permanent solution. sighs......

No Bailout!

657 LeePro  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:02:45am

re: #653 gop_patriot

Hiya, Lee! :) We meet again...

{ { {G} } }

:D

658 LeePro  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:03:23am

re: #652 gop_patriot

That strikes me as so funny for some reason. A "Somali pirate spokesman". Who knew that pirates had spokesmen? I wonder why they didn't choose the more politically correct, "Somali pirate spokesperson"? Personally, I favor "Somali SpokesPirate"... X)

ROTFLMAO!

659 TheMatrix31  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:08:14am

re: #641 gop_patriot

Wow. That's a very clear and understandable breakdown of the current situation and Obama's connection- an especially good one to send to people who might not read LGF.

I wish. Unfortunately, there are so many people who will dismiss the content just because its on a certain news network. Otherwise, that video would be going straight onto my Facebook.

660 gop_patriot  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:09:46am

re: #658 LeePro

I'm soooo delirious. Is there an Iron Fist rule for PWT*?

*Posting While Tired

:)

661 Syrah  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:11:06am

re: #659 TheMatrix31

I wish. Unfortunately, there are so many people who will dismiss the content just because its on a certain news network. Otherwise, that video would be going straight onto my Facebook.

You should not let other peoples opinion of the Network so dissuade you.

You could make a challenge of it and ask your readers if any of it could be disproved.

It could even be fun.

662 RTLM  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:12:15am

re: #651 RTLM


as the times claims.

Correction. not an NYT claim.
[Link: news.xinhuanet.com...]

663 gop_patriot  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:15:41am

re: #659 TheMatrix31

I wish. Unfortunately, there are so many people who will dismiss the content just because its on a certain news network. Otherwise, that video would be going straight onto my Facebook.

I've put it on the front page of my YouTube channel. Not that anyone really goes there but my friends and family. Added a couple of LGF and other links to my Facebook (yes I finally broke down and got one lol), maybe some friends of friends will see it and do some thinking.

664 LeePro  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:18:03am

re: #660 gop_patriot

I'm soooo delirious. Is there an Iron Fist rule for PWT*?

*Posting While Tired

:)

Geez, I hope not!
If there were, an awful lot of us would be banned by now!

However..............
  ¦O ya-a-a-w-w-w-n-n-n
I'm thinking now's a good time to sneak off before LoL shows up and makes me want to stay!

  ¦O ya-a-a-w-w-w-n-n-n...........

665 Mel Lono  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:30:38am

re: #650 LeePro

I did mean among the MSM, my bad. Was here all day. New thread lizards.

666 gop_patriot  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 12:32:25am

re: #664 LeePro

(((goodnight Lee))) Hope you have a great night's rest, and a fantastic day tomorrow.

667 Colonel Panik  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 1:24:14am

re: #595 IslandLibertarian

#574
Dinged down for quoting Orwell's Animal Farm........at LGF............
UN-FUCKING=BELIEVABLE!

To paraphrase Hans und Franz: "Ve are only here to ding....you up!"

668 Scion9  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 4:29:39am

Unless I'm missing it (which is quite likely) I'm not seeing a concrete definition for what qualifies as a 'Troubled Asset'. There is a bad history for nebulous terminology in legislation.

669 quickjustice  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 4:30:19am

re: #656 Bogeyfre

This is a great argument for moral hazard. Holding bad actors accountable or their bad acts is self-evidently the moral thing to do.

In fact, some members of Congress, including McCain, repeatedly tried and failed to do that. Collapse of the financial system means catastrophic collateral damage, not merely to those responsible (although it would do that), but to the rest of us.

It's the rest of us I'm concerned about at the moment. Once we're out of the woods, we should deal with the bad actors. As long as they're in power, that's tough to pull off.

670 CommonSense  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 5:36:57am

I listen to Frank and Dodd this morning on the radio determined to find those responsible for the lack of oversight and reckless business practices.

I was so pissed and yelled at the radio for them to look into the mirror.

671 jester6  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 6:10:20am

re: #645 Sharmuta

Burning Down The House: What Caused Our Economic Crisis?

Views: 802,514

About double from yesterday. Perhaps this video is going viral?

Brilliant. Fucking Brilliant. 10 minute breifing on this mess done MTV buzz clip style for us post Boomers who multitask on everything.

Now I have a pretty good understanding of what happened so I maybe I am filling in the gaps the video leaves behind. I will send this to a few friends and see if they can figure it out.

I hope it goes viral. I will send this link out to everyone i know.

672 jester6  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 6:37:52am

The interesting thing about this bill is that it gives the Secretary the authority to:

-buy assets (which means mortgages and not homes)
-sell assets (which means mortgages and not homes)
-renegotiate the terms of mortgages with homeowners
-encourage private sector companies to renegotiate the terms of mortgages with homeowners
-have participating companies cover any losses when he sells the mortgages back to the private sector.

The secretary does not have the authority to forclose on homes. He is infact compelled to try to "keep families in their homes" and "protect taxpayers".

The bottom line:

SecTreas buys bad paper
SecTreas does a workout with the homeowner knowing full well he does not have the authority to foreclose
SecTreas encourages private sector companies to do the same
SecTreas sells the mortgages
SecTreas goes back to the participating financial institutions and bills them

This law should be called the "End to Foreclosure Act" or the "Homes for Voter Act of 2008"

The Dems changed the rules so their constituents could get loans to buy houses they could not afford. Now that their constituents have defaulted they are going to "give" them the houses like a giant Habitat for Humanity program across the entire housing market.

Acorn and like organizations will be all over this teaching people how to game the system and get their home for free.

673 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 6:54:18am
674 shwaiutah  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 7:02:28am

So what is the worst thing that happens if the "bailout" doesn't go through? This whole thing is to keep us out of a recession and protect those people who had bad mortgages so they won't lose their houses.
OH, OK, lets bailout then. It isn't like the free market has worked for the past century.
We should also make people who shouldn't have qualified for a house stay in their house so they don't lose what they shouldn't have had in the first place.
Think that is circular, how about the taxpayers pay billions of dollars to save tax money for taxpayers? Will my taxes really go up if they bailout doesn't happen?
I am in the military, I am going to get paid for my job either way and it isn't like I have all my extra (read: $0) money in the stock market because I get paid so well.
So why the freak should these companies get bailed out for bad decisions?

675 CommonSense  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 7:32:59am

re: #605 gop_patriot

GAG

All that's missing is "I am not a crook"

676 shwaiutah  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 7:38:02am

re: #606 IslandLibertarian

Let's try this again.

Somehow it seemed as though the farm had grown richer without making the animals themselves any richer— except, of course, for the pigs and the dogs.

Get it?

Are you saying everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others?

677 Maltboy!  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 9:48:21am

May they all burn in Hell for this.

678 SecondComing  Mon, Sep 29, 2008 10:30:41am

re: #68 itellu3times

But the question is still, are we on the edge of a precipice, or not?

This is incredible.


I like the very first part of this Colbert video, it touches on that. It's very good, I think you'll get a kick out of it: [Link: www.colbertnation.com...]


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