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Biologist Reviews 'Intelligent Design' Creationist Textbook

Science | Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 5:31:52 pm PDT

Here’s a terrific, detailed review of one of the textbooks created by the Discovery Institute in order to sneak their “intelligent design” creationism into American science classrooms. John Timmer precisely identifies the slippery tactics of this dishonest organization: A biologist reviews an evolution textbook from the ID camp.

The Discovery Institute, as indicated by its wedge document, wishes to eliminate science’s focus on natural causes. The group views this focus as the source of society’s increasing materialism, which makes it anathema in the belief system of Discovery’s members. Stephen C. Meyer, the lead author of Explore Evolution, heads the Discovery Institute and is mentioned by name in the wedge document, as is coauthor Paul Nelson.

Evolution has been singled out for special ire by Discovery, as it provides an explanation for the origin of humanity based solely on natural processes. Although the ID movement has not developed a research program or even proposed a scientific formulation of its ideas, it has gotten a surprising amount of traction with its attack on the science of evolution. Tapping into a rich vein of American thought that dates back roughly a century, the group’s members have used popular books and appearances in the press to argue that the scientific theory of evolution is on the verge of abandonment, having been pushed to its most recent “inevitable” collapse by new molecular evidence.

More significantly, however, Discovery Institute fellows have been attempting to have their arguments against evolution incorporated into the US public school system. They testified in favor of education standards in Ohio and Kansas that targeted evolution for special criticism—Kansas’ standards went even further and eliminated reference to science’s search for natural causes. In the wake of the Dover case, however, both states have reversed these policies, leaving Discovery without a foot in the door of the US education system.

EE appears to be part of a strategy to change that. In June, Louisiana became the first state to enact a law specifically enabling the use of supplemental materials for the critical evaluation of evolution; similar legislation has been introduced in several other states. EE appears to have been intelligently designed to be the sort of supplemental text that’s appropriate under the Louisiana legislation, and so it’s likely to be making an appearance in classrooms there. But EE may appear in other states, as the approval process for supplementary material is often far less strict than that governing textbooks.

Read the whole thing. Timmer’s review completely tears this so-called textbook to shreds.

This is the kind of craziness promoted by the Discovery Institute:

Another PhD the authors found is Christian Schwabe, who apparently has established a career studying a protein called reflexin, along with its relatives. But every couple of years he publishes a paper in which he argues in favor of his belief that the genomes of all modern and extinct species originated during the formation of life billions of years ago. According to Schwabe, those genomes have continued to exist, hidden underground as stem cell-like entities. Whenever these cells sense a favorable environment above ground, they head for the surface and self-organize into a fully formed, multicellular animal. No, I am not making this up.

This isn’t simply evidence-free (although it is); it’s borderline deranged. And yet, in the hands of Discovery’s authors, it becomes a serious scientific controversy about the existence of the tree of life. And, if there’s any controversy, then students should apparently think twice before accepting that science actually knows anything about the evolution of life on earth.

“Borderline deranged.” Couldn’t have said it better myself.

And guess who’s taking another bash at me? Sacking Little Green Footballs’ Outrageous Claim That ‘Discovery Institute Is in League With Islamist Creationists’.

Earlier this year, the popular blog Little Green Footballs (LGF) made an outrageous attempt to link Discovery Institute to the Muslim creationist Harun Yahya (a.k.a. Adnan Oktar). Their post claimed, “Discovery Institute is in league with Islamist creationists, a fact that is indisputably true,” specifically referring to Yahya / Oktar.

A perfect example of the lies and distortions in which this organization trades. I neither said nor implied that the Discovery Institute collaborates with Harun Yahya (although one of their Turkish associates, Mustafa Aykol, is a former volunteer for Harun Yahya), and to say that I was “specifically referring” to him is simply a lie.

Read it for yourself; here’s the post to which DI shill Casey Luskin is referring, with an audio clip featuring one of the Discovery Institute’s Senior Fellows, David Berlinski, boasting about their collaboration with Islamic creationists: When Disco Dudes Attack.

And yes, it is indisputably true that the Discovery Institute is collaborating with Turkish creationists. Clearly, that little “discovery” of mine has hit a very sensitive nerve at the Dishonesty Institute.

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1 noshariaincanada  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:34:08pm

We will tolerate no lies or distortions!

2 rightside  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:34:47pm

Alright! An intelligent design thread!

3 pingjockey  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:38:40pm

Remember, DO NOT TELL CHARLES WHAT TO POST! You mush mellon brains!

4 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:38:48pm

POINT OF ORDER!

If the DI writes a "textbook" and nobody (read public school system) uses it, does it make a sound? (or does it matter?)

5 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:39:51pm

re: #4 sattv4u2

POINT OF ORDER!

If the DI writes a "textbook" and nobody (read public school system) uses it, does it make a sound? (or does it matter?)

You haven't even read the article, or you wouldn't be asking this.

6 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:39:56pm
textbooks created by the Discovery Institute

Okay, what school districts have adopted them?

/just askin'

7 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:41:25pm

re: #6 Killian Bundy

Okay, what school districts have adopted them?

/just askin'

So let's just wait until they do before saying anything about it? I don't think so.

8 HelloDare  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:42:30pm

The arguments supporting intelligent design are beyond stupid.

9 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:43:08pm

re: #5 Charles

You haven't even read the article, or you wouldn't be asking this.

reading the article or not, my question still stands (and BTW, i'm reading it as we discuss).
Killian is asking the same thing in his #6. It's like the nut standing on a New York street corner proclaiming the End of The World. Do you think ANYONE is paying attntion to him, save for a tourist who has never seen such a spectacle before? And even that tourist pays no heed to the message!

10 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:46:00pm

Who but the ID folks would title their textbook "Explore Evolution"?

11 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:46:40pm

re: #9 sattv4u2

reading the article or not, my question still stands (and BTW, i'm reading it as we discuss).
Killian is asking the same thing in his #6. It's like the nut standing on a New York street corner proclaiming the End of The World. Do you think ANYONE is paying attntion to him, save for a tourist who has never seen such a spectacle before? And even that tourist pays no heed to the message!

You are simply wrong. This agenda is being pushed hard, all over the country. Attempting to brush it off is ridiculous. And dangerous.

12 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:47:31pm

re: #9 sattv4u2

reading the article or not, my question still stands (and BTW, i'm reading it as we discuss).
Killian is asking the same thing in his #6. It's like the nut standing on a New York street corner proclaiming the End of The World. Do you think ANYONE is paying attntion to him, save for a tourist who has never seen such a spectacle before? And even that tourist pays no heed to the message!


Gov Jindal would be one of those I believe. And he does have some power over the textbooks.

13 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:48:47pm

Explore Evolution. Nice "Orwellian" name. Makes it sounds like there is actual exploring going on at the Discovery Institute.

14 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:48:54pm

Words cannot express my contempt for these people

15 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:49:13pm

I'm reminded of the people who say that jihadis are just a tiny minority, and we can just ignore them.

16 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:49:27pm

re: #7 Charles

So let's just wait until they do before saying anything about it? I don't think so.

I'm pretty sure my position's clear.

/it's not going to fly once it hits the courts and there's not really much you can do about it preemptively

17 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:50:43pm

re: #11 Charles

You are simply wrong. This agenda is being pushed hard, all over the country. Attempting to brush it off is ridiculous.

Okay, lets play it your way. Pushing as hard as they are, is there a school system that you're aware of that has adopted the text? Is there a system that has it under serious consideration? I'm not being snarky or argumentative! I really want to know. If there IS a system that is leaning that way, I will lead the charge (both realistically and financially) to keep it out of the public schools, regardless of what my personal beleif is! I do NOT want it taught in PUBLIC school. I can't be more blunt.

18 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:50:48pm

re: #16 Killian Bundy

I'm pretty sure my position's clear.

/it's not going to fly once it hits the courts and there's not really much you can do about it preemptively

Your position is clear, and it's wrong-headed.

19 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:51:36pm
Whenever these cells sense a favorable environment above ground, they head for the surface and self-organize into a fully formed, multicellular animal.

A PhD came up with this? Was that a PhD in science or science fiction?

20 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:52:27pm

re: #17 sattv4u2

Okay, lets play it your way. Pushing as hard as they are, is there a school system that you're aware of that has adopted the text? Is there a system that has it under serious consideration? I'm not being snarky or argumentative! I really want to know. If there IS a system that is leaning that way, I will lead the charge (both realistically and financially) to keep it out of the public schools, regardless of what my personal beleif is! I do NOT want it taught in PUBLIC school. I can't be more blunt.

Educate yourself. I've been posting article after article on this subject, because there ARE states that are being influenced by these people. If you can't be bothered to read those articles, your opinions aren't worth much.

21 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:52:30pm

Some reading here may not go through the entire article, but you shoudn't miss this part of John Timmer's summation:

"As I was reading the text, I was repeatedly reminded of the testimony of Berkeley Professor Kevin Padian, who described the statement required by the Dover, PA school board as follows:

'I think it makes people stupid. I think essentially it makes them ignorant. It confuses them unnecessarily about things that are well understood in science, about which there is no controversy, about ideas that have existed since the 1700's, about a broad body of scientific knowledge that's been developed over centuries by people with religious backgrounds and all walks of life, from all countries and faiths, which everyone can understand.'

22 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:52:31pm

re: #12 Outrider

Gov Jindal would be one of those I believe. And he does have some power over the textbooks.

Tha the does. Do you have any evidence that he wants to institute the theory of ID in the LA public schools (and not just because he is a beleiver)

23 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:53:25pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

A PhD came up with this? Was that a PhD in science or science fiction?

It's actually cribbed from the plot of a Dean Koontz thriller, "Phantoms" IIRC.

24 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:53:41pm

re: #20 Charles

Educate yourself. I've been posting article after article on this subject, because there ARE states that are being influenced by these people. If you can't be bothered to read those articles, your opinions aren't worth much.

I do daily, thank you
I'll take that as a NO, there are NO public schools that use the text

25 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:54:59pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

A PhD came up with this? Was that a PhD in science or science fiction?

Sounds like one of those crackpot theories. Shows how the DI is willing to embrace any pseudoscience that forwards its agenda no matter how ludicrous. Reminds me of that commenter a while back that tried to show evolution has some flaws in it by pointing to the works of Velikovsky.

26 Oingo Boingo[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:55:05pm
27 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:55:08pm

re: #23 Tarkloon

It's actually cribbed from the plot of a Dean Koontz thriller, "Phantoms" IIRC.

Got it from some Lovecraft Cthulhu type creatures as well, Ubbo-sathla, Abhoth, shoggoths, etc

28 LEGION  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:55:45pm

re: #15 Charles

I'm reminded of the people who say that jihadis are just a tiny minority, and we can just ignore them.

Like Obama said Iran is just a small country and we don't need to worry about it. Ohhhhkayyy- so you want to be our Commander in Chief. Not!

29 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:58:01pm

re: #23 Tarkloon

It's actually cribbed from the plot of a Dean Koontz thriller, "Phantoms" IIRC.

I could never get into Koontz, though I've tried numerous times

30 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:58:02pm

re: #22 sattv4u2

Tha the does. Do you have any evidence that he wants to institute the theory of ID in the LA public schools (and not just because he is a beleiver)

This is why I say your opinions aren't worth much. You don't even know the facts.

Jindal has explicitly supported the teaching of creationism in science classes, on several occasions, and I've posted links. The state of Louisiana passed a bill that will specifically allow textbooks like the one that is the subject of this article.

31 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:58:23pm

There are probably hundreds of thousands of copies of this book in print right now, and it's probably in a lot of Sunday Schools. Christian parents need to know that the book is full of outright fallacies, it's not just about public schools for those who are saying it is.

32 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:58:24pm

re: #18 Charles

Your position is clear, and it's wrong-headed.

What do you propose to do before they violate the law?

/the people have a right to be insane in this country until they cross the line

33 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:59:09pm

re: #32 Killian Bundy

What do you propose to do before they violate the law?

/the people have a right to be insane in this country until they cross the line

I propose to continue posting about this subject, no matter how much you try to discourage it.

34 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:59:55pm

"There are two obvious tactical reasons for the book's omission of any explicit conclusions about the "debate." The first reason is simply that the authors know precisely the sort of conclusions they'd like everyone to reach: some variation of the creationism that has been deemed legally intolerable by the courts. But they're also undoubtedly aware of survey results that indicate that well over 10 percent of US teachers "teach creationism as a 'valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species."
Here's the survey:
[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

35 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:00:08pm

re: #11 Charles

You are simply wrong. This agenda is being pushed hard, all over the country. Attempting to brush it off is ridiculous. And dangerous.

Just like the multiculturalists who "responded" to 9/11 by introducing "live as a Muslim days" and "jihad games" in schools in California- "So our children will better understand why they are angry at us" (and of course, be inculcated with the idea of yet another non-Western culture being soooo superior to us insensitive, linear-thinking, non-mystical descendants of Dead White Males).

They, and the "ID" crowd, are opposite sides of the same tarnished coin.

Should there be discussions of "ID" in school? Yes, but not in science classes. Such subject matter properly belongs in a college-prep or junior college course on philosophy. Alongside the Agnostics, the Jains, and other cult-like beliefs.

Personally, I put the "IDiots" about even with the UFO contactee cults, but maybe that's just me.

Oh, news flash to Schwabe; A genome is not a cell. Nor is it motile.

/Unlike him, I got an A in high-school Biology

cheers

eon

36 Karridine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:01:28pm

Bright blue after-the-deluge Bangkok Saturday morning and I'd LOVE to stay and defend rational thought against the corrupting worms of Intelligent Desire, but work calls for a few hours.

Man the barricades (and ladies, barricade the men!) and we'll meet in a few hours hence... :D

37 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:01:29pm

re: #30 Charles

I understand Jindal is an ID advocate. My question was does he (or any) district utilize the DI text.

REPEAT,,,
If there IS a system that is leaning that way, I will lead the charge (both realistically and financially) to keep it out of the public schools, regardless of what my personal beleif is! I do NOT want it taught in PUBLIC school. I can't be more blunt.

38 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:02:43pm

re: #8 HelloDare

The arguments supporting intelligent design are beyond stupid.

Well call me stupid then...i really dont give a rip =)

39 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:03:04pm

re: #35 eon
Oh, news flash to Schwabe; A genome is not a cell. Nor is it motile.

/Unlike him, I got an A in high-school Biology

Ah, but he stuck around in college and eventually got a book deal pedaling this crap around.

I wonder how much he got in government grants to pursue this tripe.

40 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:04:10pm
In June, Louisiana became the first state to enact a law specifically enabling the use of supplemental materials for the critical evaluation of evolution; similar legislation has been introduced in several other states. EE appears to have been intelligently designed to be the sort of supplemental text that's appropriate under the Louisiana legislation, and so it's likely to be making an appearance in classrooms there. But EE may appear in other states, as the approval process for supplementary material is often far less strict than that governing textbooks.

So it's not meant to be a text book, it's a supplemental to be used to skirt the Constitution, confuse children, enrich the DI and cost taxpayers. Lovely.

41 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:04:29pm

From the survey:
"Of the 25% of teachers who devoted time to creationism or intelligent design, nearly half agreed or strongly agreed that they teach creationism as a “valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species.” Nearly the same number agreed or strongly agreed that when they teach creationism or intelligent design they emphasize that “many reputable scientists view these as valid alternatives to Darwinian Theory”

[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

42 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:05:40pm

Regarding whether this book does anything or not: Michael Behe wrote that horrible book Darwin's Black Box, and millions of people have bought every word and are convinced evolution is just some anti-religious nonsense. NRO called that book one of the most influential non-fiction books of the 20th century. These books cause real danger. They fool the gullible and ignorant, miseducate thousands, and put money in the pockets of charlatans. For this reason it's important to be vigilant and proactive against these people because they do have real influence and cause real problems.

43 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:05:47pm

re: #40 Sharmuta

So it's not meant to be a text book, it's a supplemental to be used to skirt the Constitution, confuse children, enrich the DI and cost taxpayers. Lovely.

What I'd like to know is, where are all the "separation of church and state" people in this? Are they even aware of this?

/or did I miss a memo somewhere along the line?

cheers

eon

44 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:08:29pm

re: #43 eon

What I'd like to know is, where are all the "separation of church and state" people in this? Are they even aware of this?

/or did I miss a memo somewhere along the line?

cheers

eon

Ah, but you see, they're not saying its a religious arguement out in the open. They're attacking the theories. Nevermind their theory has no scientific backing and falls apart under even the most casual glance.

Its why they can work with the Islamists. Anything to weaken the existing power base.

45 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:08:30pm

re: #22 sattv4u2

Tha the does. Do you have any evidence that he wants to institute the theory of ID in the LA public schools (and not just because he is a beleiver)

For a start?

A Catholic convert who grew up in a Hindu household, Jindal has made his name by aligning himself with the cultural conservative wing of the Republican Party, fiercely opposing stem cell research and abortion while favoring the teaching of Intelligent Design in public schools.

BATON ROUGE, Louisiana, June 27, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Louisiana public school teachers can now educate their students about the theory of intelligent design and scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolutionary theory thanks to a new law signed this week by Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal. The Louisiana Science Education Act now allows teachers to supplement the state's curricula with additional scientific materials, but groups opposed to any debate over the "origin of the species" have warned that the new law will become the origin of the lawsuits if they believe it facilitates religion.

46 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:08:55pm

re: #30 Charles

This is why I say your opinions aren't worth much. You don't even know the facts.

Jindal has explicitly supported the teaching of creationism in science classes, on several occasions, and I've posted links. The state of Louisiana passed a bill that will specifically allow textbooks like the one that is the subject of this article.

And we're two months into the school yesr. Where's the promised lawsuit?

/it only took a one paragraph statement read in class to nail ID to the floorboards in Pennsylvania

47 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:09:11pm

Survey methodology:
"The survey permits a statistically valid and current portrait of US science teachers that complements US and international surveys of the general public on evolution and scientific literacy [2,24] and on evolution in the classroom [3,25]. Between March 5 and May 1, 2007, 939 teachers participated in the study, either by mail or by completing an identical questionnaire online. Our overall response rate of 48% yielded a sample that may be generalized to the population of all public school teachers who taught a high school–level biology course in the 2006–2007 academic year, with all percentage estimates reported in this essay's tables and figures having a margin of error of no more than 3.2% at the 95% confidence level."
[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

Note that the sample is not skewed by sampling private schools, as has been suggested in past discussions.

48 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:10:31pm

re: #43 eon

What I'd like to know is, where are all the "separation of church and state" people in this? Are they even aware of this?

/or did I miss a memo somewhere along the line?

cheers

eon

Some might not be aware, which is why it's important that Charles continues to post about this subject.

Others who are aware seem to think it's not a big deal and think Charles should focus on something else, I guess.

49 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:10:31pm

re: #41 jaunte

From the survey:
"Of the 25% of teachers who devoted time to creationism or intelligent design, nearly half agreed or strongly agreed that they teach creationism as a “valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species.” Nearly the same number agreed or strongly agreed that when they teach creationism or intelligent design they emphasize that “many reputable scientists view these as valid alternatives to Darwinian Theory”

[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

This should be a wake-up call for those who continue to insist that this subject is unimportant. The United States has slipped to an appallingly low level in science education, and one big reason is the widespread support for Dark Ages beliefs like creationism -- even among science teachers.

50 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:11:05pm

re: #33 Charles

I propose to continue posting about this subject, no matter how much you try to discourage it.

/I've never asked you not to, we just have differing opinions about the severity of the threat

51 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:12:28pm

re: #48 Sharmuta

Some might not be aware, which is why it's important that Charles continues to post about this subject.

Others who are aware seem to think it's not a big deal and think Charles should focus on something else, I guess.

I've noticed that it doesn't matter how much I post on other subjects. Every time there's a thread on the intelligent design hoax, the same people pop up and tell me I'm wasting my time, they're bored, who cares, etc.

52 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:13:31pm

"One time at ID camp...."

53 pingjockey  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:14:36pm

re: #51 Charles
Tough shit. Let 'em read something else. This creeping of nonscience into science is not a joke.

54 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:15:08pm

re: #42 Basho

Here's the link to NRO I mentioned:

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Here's a little comment they left after Behe's book was listed:

Gilder: "Overthrows Darwin at the end of the 20th century in the same way that quantum theory overthrew Newton at the beginning."

Well, there you have it. Explore Evolution may be on their 21st century list if people just ignore it.

55 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:15:52pm

If you are bored by the ID threads - that's proof that YOU are not the intended audience. Get it?

56 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:16:24pm

re: #48 Sharmuta

Some might not be aware, which is why it's important that Charles continues to post about this subject.

Others who are aware seem to think it's not a big deal and think Charles should focus on something else, I guess.

Not me. I was always taught two things;

1. In warfare, always honor a threat.

2. The best diversion is a threat the enemy is forced to honor.

("Threat"- enemy force, present, apparent, or "in being")
("Honor"- respond to and/or orient elements to guard against)

cheers

eon

57 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:16:30pm

re: #17 sattv4u2

Okay, lets play it your way. Pushing as hard as they are, is there a school system that you're aware of that has adopted the text? Is there a system that has it under serious consideration? I'm not being snarky or argumentative! I really want to know. If there IS a system that is leaning that way, I will lead the charge (both realistically and financially) to keep it out of the public schools, regardless of what my personal beleif is! I do NOT want it taught in PUBLIC school. I can't be more blunt.

And if Charles wasn't diligent about bringing things like this to your attention, how, may I ask, would you even know if it were being done in your school district? Do you make a practice of attending all the meetings at which textbooks are chosen?

Intelligent Design is merely one of the many demons of irrationality against which we must struggle. Consider these posts as disseminating intelligence about the enemy.

58 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:17:20pm

re: #57 Alberta Oil Peon

Hey, well put!

59 pingjockey  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:06pm

WAAAAAAAAAY OT Tampa Bay 6 WSox 2

60 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:08pm

re: #45 Outrider

Louisiana public school teachers can now educate their students about the theory of intelligent design and scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolutionary theory

Is there a sanctioned textbook? (that IS the subject of this thread, btw) In that the teacher CAN (not MUST ,,, not HAS TOO) is also telling

Again, please see my #37, highlighted portions in particular

61 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:45pm

re: #60 sattv4u2

Louisiana public school teachers can now educate their students about the theory of intelligent design and scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolutionary theory

Is there a sanctioned textbook? (that IS the subject of this thread, btw) In that the teacher CAN (not MUST ,,, not HAS TOO) is also telling

Again, please see my #37, highlighted portions in particular

Are you a creationist?

62 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:46pm

re: #46 Killian Bundy

And we're two months into the school yesr. Where's the promised lawsuit?

/it only took a one paragraph statement read in class to nail ID to the floorboards in Pennsylvania

You have to have someone with standing to file, and to have someone with standing you have to have a parent who knows enough to flush out this nonsense, as well as one who has enough spine to confront it. It could take a while to hit that combo.

63 doriangrey  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:51pm

re: #51 Charles

I've noticed that it doesn't matter how much I post on other subjects. Every time there's a thread on the intelligent design hoax, the same people pop up and tell me I'm wasting my time, they're bored, who cares, etc.

Charles, you can always invite them to go else where. If they don't like the subject of one of the articles (or even a hundred) you post then they should read another or shut the hell up.

64 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:19:49pm

I had a mini-insight the other day......ID Creationism is to Evolution
as Liberal ideology is to Economics.

It's just that Liberals have so many crazy ideas about money, and social science that is absolutely disasterous, but they refuse to acknowledge the legitimate principles of economics.

Maybe it's a stretch - but one is a science and the favored ideology - NOT

65 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:20:05pm

re: #51 Charles

I've noticed that it doesn't matter how much I post on other subjects. Every time there's a thread on the intelligent design hoax, the same people pop up and tell me I'm wasting my time, they're bored, who cares, etc.

Not so different than the threads on fascism, if you ask me, and look how that turned out. You were right all along about those bastards and you're right about this too.

66 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:20:26pm

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

67 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:20:31pm
68 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:20:45pm

In our CT highschool, the brighter kids get a good education while the average and below average kids are indoctrinated into potential eco-socialist state workers. How much is a state willing to dumb down the majority of kids for what purpose. Control? Subversion?

69 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:21:05pm

re: #57 Alberta Oil Peon

And if Charles wasn't diligent about bringing things like this to your attention, how, may I ask, would you even know if it were being done in your school district? Do you make a practice of attending all the meetings at which textbooks are chosen?

Intelligent Design is merely one of the many demons of irrationality against which we must struggle. Consider these posts as disseminating intelligence about the enemy.

It's very prominent in the fundamental homeschool community which is a subset of the Christian homeschool community.

70 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:21:16pm

Great article, Charles. Those people are not, borderline deranged, just plain deranged does it nicely. Nice job tweaking their noses, too.

71 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:21:34pm

re: #57 Alberta Oil Peon

And if Charles wasn't diligent about bringing things like this to your attention, how, may I ask, would you even know if it were being done in your school district? Do you make a practice of attending all the meetings at which textbooks are chosen?

Intelligent Design is merely one of the many demons of irrationality against which we must struggle. Consider these posts as disseminating intelligence about the enemy.

not ALL, but I do review the curriculum and the list of texts prior to the opening of each school year

(thats my JOB as a PARENT)

72 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:22:10pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

Enlighten the rest of us as to the threat. Imagine if we'd all been on top of Fannie and Freddie the whole time - that didn't come out right - but you know what I mean.

73 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:22:53pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

You are beginning to get on my last nerve.

74 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:23:09pm

re: #62 Tarkloon

You have to have someone with standing to file, and to have someone with standing you have to have a parent who knows enough to flush out this nonsense, as well as one who has enough spine to confront it. It could take a while to hit that combo.

/are you kidding me?

75 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:23:16pm
76 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:24:04pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

Taking them at all seriously is the wrong approach. Mockery, scorn, and open derision can work wonders.

77 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:24:38pm

re: #73 Charles

You are beginning to get on my last nerve.

/well, I certainly don't want to do that, I'll take a break

78 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:25:39pm

re: #74 Killian Bundy

No I am not kidding you. Those are facts, did Kitzmiller happen in an Urban school district? No. It did not. Do you suppose that parents in rural districts are avid members? Probably not, and they are probably paying more attention to other things.

79 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:26:49pm

re: #16 Killian Bundy

I'm pretty sure my position's clear.

/it's not going to fly once it hits the courts and there's not really much you can do about it preemptively

You can expose it to public scrutiny, and with luck, not have to deal with it in the courts.

80 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:26:52pm

Sarah Palin is evidence of Survival of the Fittest - and with 5 children she continues to pass on her DNA. Meanwhile liberals continue to eliminate their future voters.

81 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:26:59pm

re: #61 Charles

Are you a creationist?

If you're asking me if I beleive what my faith and religion teaches me about the origin of life, than I would say yes
If you are asking if I beleive that this earth and all living and non-living things on it have evolved over the eons, I would also have to say yes.
Do I force my beleifs on others? By your mere question to me (the fact that you nor others here know if I was or not) proves that I do NOT force my beleifs on others. Do I want Creationism/ ID/ Explore Evolution/ or the phrase du jour taught in PUIBLIC SCHOOLS,,, again , see my #37

82 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:28:17pm

re: #77 Killian Bundy

/well, I certainly don't want to do that, I'll take a break

is there room in the TAKE A BREAK corner of the room for me too ?

83 solomonpanting  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:30:02pm

Science needs ID like a fish needs a bicycle.

84 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:31:13pm

re: #69 DistantThunder

It's very prominent in the fundamental homeschool community which is a subset of the Christian homeschool community.

DT, I don't think I would want to be part of a country that tried to dictate what parents could or could not teach to their own children. Other than home-schooled kids should be able to pass standard exams on the Three R type stuff.

The problem with the ID crowd is that they are attempting to use the taxpayer-funded public education system to indoctrinate other people's children into their cult. That's a very Fascist notion, when you think about it. (I debated the use of the term "leftist" instead of "fascist", and decided it's a toss-up.)

85 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:31:30pm

re: #68 MacGregor

In our CT highschool, the brighter kids get a good education while the average and below average kids are indoctrinated into potential eco-socialist state workers. How much is a state willing to dumb down the majority of kids for what purpose. Control? Subversion?

All of the above.


"Isn't ignorance and superstition the foundation of all dictatorships?"

-Second Stage Lensman, E.E. "Doc" Smith

If people are taught to think magically, and taught that it is wrong (evil, immoral, "judgmental") to think logically, ipso facto they are more easily controlled, and will tend to fall into the traditional "The Leader Knows Best" mode so beloved of every totalitarian movement in history.

"Magical Thinking" is a mode in which cause and effect are not recognized as related to each other, and in which literally anything can be seen as existing simply because someone wished it so. By extension, this disconnect results in people failing to recognize that when an illogical or irrational procedure is followed repeatedly, it will fail the same way every time. As per Einstein's observation that

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result each time.


In this respect, the IDiots and the "Progressives" have much in common.


cheers

eon

86 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:33:04pm

The more this subject is talked about here and in other parts of the web, the more likely the dishonest tactics of the Discovery Institute and its allies will become more commonly known. The sooner the better, because the task of repairing science education will otherwise become more and more expensive. After this week, at least, that should mean something.

Keep on posting, Charles.

87 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:33:19pm

re: #71 sattv4u2

not ALL, but I do review the curriculum and the list of texts prior to the opening of each school year

(thats my JOB as a PARENT)

Great! Now that this thread has informed you of this snake-in-the-grass excuse for a supplemental text, you can be ready to squelch it when it rears its ugly head in your school district.

88 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:33:54pm

re: #78 Tarkloon

No I am not kidding you. Those are facts, did Kitzmiller happen in an Urban school district? No. It did not. Do you suppose that parents in rural districts are avid members? Probably not, and they are probably paying more attention to other things.

Having lived for 45 years in Boston, and for the past 10 in rural Georgia, I would say that the exact OPPOSITE is true. In the URBAN setting, a very small percentage of parents were involved. In the rural/ suburbs, the participation is much greater, IMHO

89 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:34:19pm

Hi gang!

What are we discussing?

90 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:34:44pm

re: #87 Alberta Oil Peon

Great! Now that this thread has informed you of this snake-in-the-grass excuse for a supplemental text, you can be ready to squelch it when it rears its ugly head in your school district.

see my #37 ,.,,,

91 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:35:03pm

I was checking out Derbyshire's radio program that he is now posting at his website. He was talking about jihadism in England. Then he noted how many people dismiss the threat because they claim the extremists make up a minority of all the Muslims there. Derbyshire then cleverly pointed out that all crazy philosophies start at the bottom. He asked how many Nazis there were when they first started out; He then said, "I happen to know the answer to that one... 6."

Anyway, the point is if you ignore a problem because it is small and on the fringe, it can grow into a gargantuan problem. Sorry, just wanted to share that bit of info. John of course said it better than I wrote it.

92 Palandine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:35:49pm

Go see An American Carol.

Very, very funny film. Classic Zucker.

You'll laugh out loud and yet there are parts where you'll tear up. Kelsey Grammar is great, and John Voigt is just quietly devastating.

And I want to have Dennis Hopper's baby. :)

Go. Go now.

93 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:36:08pm
Whenever these cells sense a favorable environment above ground, they head for the surface and self-organize into a fully formed, multicellular animal. No, I am not making this up.

We have been waiting for years but here it is at last...Intelligent Design:The Theory. This is hilarious!

94 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:36:21pm

re: #89 Racer X

Hi gang!

What are we discussing?


Nothing controversial.

95 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:36:21pm

re: #75 taxfreekiller

By the by anyone know the real good recipe for cooking alligator gar fish?

Probably the recipe for coyote would work.

Throw in a pot of water, along with a rock. Boil until the rock is tender.

Eat the rock.

96 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:38:09pm

re: #83 solomonpanting

Science needs ID like a fish needs a bicycle need Mercury.

ID poisons science and makes it unsuitable for human consumption.

97 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:38:16pm
98 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:38:30pm

Oh.

As you were.

99 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:38:53pm

re: #89 Racer X

Hi gang!

What are we discussing?

Boobs and beer

100 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:39:24pm

QUESTION FOR THE CLASS

Lets say you are an Evolutionist. Lets say the guy at work sitting in the cubicle next to you is a Creationsit. You two talk about things,, football,,, the new secretaries ass,,, the Thai restaurant that just opened across the street,,,, Obama/McCain,,,right ?

How often do you get into Evo/ ID "chats" ?

101 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:39:43pm

re: #99 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Boobs and beer


I'd like some of each please.

102 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:40:15pm

re: #101 opnion

I'd like some of each please.

one on the other, in fact

103 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:40:16pm

re: #22 sattv4u2

Tha the does. Do you have any evidence that he wants to institute the theory of ID in the LA public schools (and not just because he is a beleiver)

Here:

CURRICULUM

Senate Bill 733 by Senator Nevers (Act 473) provides for the Louisiana Science Education Act which requires the State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education (BESE), upon the request of a local school board, to allow and assist teachers, principals, and other school administrators to create and foster an environment withing the public schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning. Requires teachers to teach the material in the standard textbook supplied by the school system, but allows the teacher to use relevant supplemental textbooks and instructional materials as permitted by the local school board, unless the use of such materials is otherwise prohibited by BESE.

from 2008 La. Senate Session Information

104 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:41:03pm

From Casey Luskin:

ID does not address religious questions about the identity of the designer, and in fact ID proponents have diverse views about the identity of the designer;

ID proponents give principled reasons why ID does not identify the designer, stemming from ID’s intent to respect the limits of science and not attempt to address religious questions that go beyond what can be scientifically inferred from the empirical data;

Whether traditional theists or not, ID proponents are entirely open about their views on the identity of the designer;

ID proponents make it clear that their views about the identity of the designer are their personal religious views, and not conclusions of ID.

Ooops Casey slipped. Personal religious views do not get taught as science either. By Casey's view, Yahyun's views on creationism are just as valid as Christian in your public schoolroom, along with astrology.

105 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:41:06pm

re: #85 eon

Just as the magical thinking about global warming leads to control and subversion, but it gets a pass in science class.

106 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:41:14pm

re: #51 Charles

I've noticed that it doesn't matter how much I post on other subjects. Every time there's a thread on the intelligent design hoax, the same people pop up and tell me I'm wasting my time, they're bored, who cares, etc.

Yeah - well ... and then there is the silent majority who do care. Keep it up please. It's a subject that challenges core beliefs for some.

107 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:41:31pm

re: #102 sattv4u2

one on the other, in fact


No, I think that they go together,

108 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:02pm
109 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:05pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

We mostly talk about whether light is a wave or a particle.

110 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:09pm

re: #60 sattv4u2

Louisiana public school teachers can now educate their students about the theory of intelligent design and scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolutionary theory

Is there a sanctioned textbook? (that IS the subject of this thread, btw) In that the teacher CAN (not MUST ,,, not HAS TOO) is also telling

Again, please see my #37, highlighted portions in particular

I can not find any references off hand that specifically state A GIVEN TEXTBOOK is mandated. What I did find reading various sites is alarming to me given the sheer number of assaults on the subject of evolution there has been. The various cases, too many to list here individually, are found here. Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Georgia, West Virginia, Arkansas, Montana, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Mississippi, and Texas as well as the Santorum Amendment in 2001 which the DI had a hand in writing.
The logic and reasoning power of these ID folks is in abeyance.

111 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:23pm

re: #95 Alberta Oil Peon

Probably the recipe for coyote would work.

Throw in a pot of water, along with a rock. Boil until the rock is tender.

Eat the rock.

It has a "mud vein" like a carp. Remove it, dry the flesh, grill.

Then feed to dog.

Well, when I was six, my Black and Tan hound, Barney, would eat it.

Of course his nicknames were "The Garbage Disposal", "Upchuck", and "Barney, Don't Eat That, It'll Make You Sick!"

/usually said yelled when "It" was halfway down his gullet already

cheers

eon

112 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:29pm

re: #106 Bobibutu

Yeah - well ... and then there is the silent majority who do care. Keep it up please. It's a subject that challenges core beliefs for some.

How would you answer my #100, then?

113 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:00pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

Rarely if ever, but then we aren't in a science classroom either. Cut the cruft and get to your point.

114 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:23pm

re: #109 Basho

We mostly talk about whether light is a wave or a particle.

oh geeezzz ,,, not THAT old dead horse !

115 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:25pm

re: #108 MandyManners

Actuallly, I'm a monkey's aunt, dahlin'.

Now that's a woman. Yeah baby!

116 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:40pm
117 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:40pm
118 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:44:18pm
This presentation can also be considered a "bait and switch"—take a real scientific controversy, tell your readers that it exists, and then substitute in the controversy you'd like them to think exists without comment. This is obvious in the section on the fossil record, where the Reply section contains a long list of academic discussions of the limitations in our collections of fossils. That section wraps up by claiming these limitations, "have led some scientists to doubt that the fossil record supports the case for common descent."

Who are those scientists? Well, poor Malcolm Gordon (who actually wrote in favor of common descent) gets dragged out again, but the rest aren't actually scientists, nor are their publications peer-reviewed science. Instead, there's a book by an Italian creationist and another by Discovery Institute Fellows, including some of EE's authors. The bait of real issues has been switched to a statement that isn't actually supported by the footnote.

This is just the height of intellectual dishonesty. If you can dazzle them with real science, fool them with bullsh*t.

119 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:44:41pm

re: #105 MacGregor

Just as the magical thinking about global warming leads to control and subversion, but it gets a pass in science class.

Can't argue with that. Bad science is bad science, regardless of its source.

There do appear to be some people who would have us adopt bad evolutionary science, as a counter to the bad atmospheric science. That works about as well as adopting Fascism as a counter to mohammedan supremacism.

120 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:06pm

re: #115 opnion

Now that's a woman. Yeah baby!

Smile when you say that.

121 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:10pm

re: #113 Tarkloon

Rarely if ever, but then we aren't in a science classroom either. Cut the cruft and get to your point.

I've made it, repeatedly (for the breif synopsis, see my #37, especially the highlighted sections)

Better yet ,, see my #100

122 Spar Kling  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:17pm

I read the review and found it pretty much of a rehash, full of sound and fury but lacking in convincing substance. The "IBL" (Inquiry Based Learning) he claims is being abused is actually a good thing, while the doctrinaire approach he seems to advocate regarding teaching the Immutable Fact of Evolution Beyond all Inquiry and Dispute, is death to free inquiry. Incidentally, IBL is better known as "the discovery approach" and is the best way of teaching free thinking scientists (and is the worst way of teaching the Future Bureaucrats of America).

Nevertheless . . .

I've always been intrigued by the idea of multiple origins and trees of life rather than the unlikely single tree of life being preached in Science classrooms today. I disagree with the orchard pruning analogy the textbook uses and agree that any "leading students down a garden path" approach is condescending and contrary to scientific investigation.

I also disagree that any ID is needed to "prune the orchard," because natural disasters, environmental change, and increased competition for ecological niches can remove closely related species, creating additional genomic distance.

I vehemently disagree that this part of science is immutable and should be taught as such in order not to "confuse" students. This is elitist snobbery. The fringe theory of today often becomes the scientific gospel of tomorrow (catastrophism and continental drift are two examples that immediately come to mind).

But the book doesn't only promote stupidity, it demands it. In every way except its use of the actual term, this is a creationist book, but its authors are expecting that legislators and the courts will be too stupid to notice that, or to remember that the Supreme Court has declared teaching creationism an unconstitutional imposition of religion.

Oh, come on. This sort of ranting and fuming is not helpful. I haven't read the book, only the review, but while I probably would very much dislike the book from what he describes, there are surely less emotional way of rejecting creationist propoganda.

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

- sk

123 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:19pm

re: #88 sattv4u2

Having lived for 45 years in Boston, and for the past 10 in rural Georgia, I would say that the exact OPPOSITE is true. In the URBAN setting, a very small percentage of parents were involved. In the rural/ suburbs, the participation is much greater, IMHO

I agree there. Very few parents show up for Parent/Teacher meetings in the city. In the 'burbs or rural, it seems to be a social function given the attendance.

124 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:30pm

re: #118 Sharmuta
You just described Sophistry.

125 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:57pm

re: #109 Basho

We mostly talk about whether light is a wave or a particle.

Actually - both - depending on your observation technique.

126 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:57pm

re: #24 sattv4u2

I do daily, thank you
I'll take that as a NO, there are NO public schools that use the text

Just wait a while. As the article in question says itself:

In June, Louisiana became the first state to enact a law specifically enabling the use of supplemental materials for the critical evaluation of evolution; similar legislation has been introduced in several other states. EE appears to have been intelligently designed to be the sort of supplemental text that's appropriate under the Louisiana legislation, and so it's likely to be making an appearance in classrooms there. But EE may appear in other states, as the approval process for supplementary material is often far less strict than that governing textbooks.

127 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:46:29pm

re: #120 MandyManners

Smile when you say that.

Mandy, trust me I did. It is a great picture.

128 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:46:46pm
129 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:47:47pm

Red Sox just hit a three run home run. Woot!

130 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:47:51pm

re: #126 Salamantis

Just wait a while. As the article in question says itself:

In June, Louisiana became the first state to enact a law specifically enabling the use of supplemental materials for the critical evaluation of evolution; similar legislation has been introduced in several other states. EE appears to have been intelligently designed to be the sort of supplemental text that's appropriate under the Louisiana legislation, and so it's likely to be making an appearance in classrooms there. But EE may appear in other states, as the approval process for supplementary material is often far less strict than that governing textbooks.

And here is the act

131 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:47:54pm

re: #122 Spar Kling

Did you ever find those papers you claimed to know about that supported Intelligent Design and had been 'unjustly' excluded from peer review?

132 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:48:05pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

QUESTION FOR THE CLASS

Lets say you are an Evolutionist. Lets say the guy at work sitting in the cubicle next to you is a Creationsit. You two talk about things,, football,,, the new secretaries ass,,, the Thai restaurant that just opened across the street,,,, Obama/McCain,,,right ?

How often do you get into Evo/ ID "chats" ?

I personally have yet to meet a creationist, specifically a "young earth" believer subset, who did not get a tad.... aggressive... in proselytizing his/her belief as The One True Answer. Especially once he or she found out that the person "next door" was an "unbeliever". This highly missionary mentality seems to be part and parcel of the belief system, rather like "witnessing" in some revivalist churches.

/This is yet another reason that I have not been inside a church for the last 44 years, except on official business

cheers

eon

133 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:48:19pm

re: #125 Bobibutu

Actually - both - depending on your observation technique.

Hah. Yeah I knew that. It was a joke ;D

Just making Tarkloon's point that:

re: #113 Tarkloon

Rarely if ever, but then we aren't in a science classroom either.

134 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:49:08pm

As the left goes nuts over Palin, here is some beauty: The San Gabriel Mountains at the end of the Day:


The Towercam. Pacific Time Zone.

135 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:49:58pm

re: #128 taxfreekiller

Fist only use the small alligator gar, throw the 5' ones back.

Clean by skinning the gar, use a fillet knife to do a clean gutting, you know like Sarah Palin did to Biden, be sure to leave the head on but get the brains out and the eyes too. For taste use lots of garlic, cyan pepper, sea salt, Tabasco a bit while cooking. Now the important deal is to
find the most soft salt ceder wood, the red salt ceder is best.

Get some good mesquite wood , the roots are best to flavor , burn the roots down to coals, lay the fish and its garnish on the soft red ceder
about 4" above the coals, cook real slow on both sides, takes about an
hour , 30 min a side.

man on man

Oh, hell TFK - just eat the damn thing raw for the protein and move on.

;-)

136 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:50:04pm

re: #129 CapeCoddah

Red Sox just hit a three run home run. Woot!

I am happy for you, but my White Sox stepped in shit & decided to stamp their feet in it. Oh the pain!

137 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:50:27pm

re: #134 Ojoe

As the left goes nuts over Palin, here is some beauty: The San Gabriel Mountains at the end of the Day:


The Towercam. Pacific Time Zone.

Looks awesome tonight! A bit chilly up there I bet.

138 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:50:53pm
139 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:51:31pm

BBIAB

(i'm sure you'll all be counting the minutes)

140 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:51:33pm

re: #101 opnion

I'd like some of each please.

Well, I can help with half of it anyways

141 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:51:38pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

QUESTION FOR THE CLASS

Lets say you are an Evolutionist. Lets say the guy at work sitting in the cubicle next to you is a Creationsit. You two talk about things,, football,,, the new secretaries ass,,, the Thai restaurant that just opened across the street,,,, Obama/McCain,,,right ?

How often do you get into Evo/ ID "chats" ?

I would be worried if I were a weapons specialist trying to figure out an answer to a nano-scale attack and the scientist next to me says something like "We can't figure that out because God designed it and it is too perfect for us to try to understand.

142 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:51:58pm

re: #136 opnion
That Stinks. (no pun intended) Been there. Sorry.

143 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:15pm

re: #137 Racer X

At the bottom of the image they post the temperature. It may be a few hours back, the temperature; the image is within the last 4 mins. or so.

144 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:20pm

re: #135 Bobibutu

Oh, hell TFK - just eat the damn thing raw for the protein and move on.

;-)

Sounds a hell of a lot easier. Less time too. In Japan they would charge you an arm and leg by calling it sashimi.

145 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:42pm
146 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:53pm
147 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:53pm

re: #128 taxfreekiller

I missed you at the Fairmont. Was heading out at 9AM, and discovered that I had a dead alternator and damaged battery. Got downtown after 2PM. Most everyone was gone. RATS!

148 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:55pm

Well, I got a nice glass of homebrew.

*looks around room for the other item of interest*

149 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:53:03pm

re: #140 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Well, I can help with half of it anyways

Can' open it.

150 The Shadow Do  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:53:52pm

re: #67 taxfreekiller

Can not please every one all the time so, its good to please yourself some of the time too, also.

Sort of like if its your stock tank and you want to stock it with carp and eat carp, its your hook, your bait and your fishing pole and your time.
So, other fishermen need to try to get an invite to the next pond where there are lots of bass and stuff.

Myself, I'm personally creationist undesigned thus nothing makes any sense to me or about me ever, and I fish for alligator gar.

Holy moley. I think I understood this.

151 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:54:20pm

re: #143 Ojoe

At the bottom of the image they post the temperature. It may be a few hours back, the temperature; the image is within the last 4 mins. or so.

Only 58 right now. I once played in the snow right over there - - - >

152 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:54:27pm

re: #149 opnion

Can' open it.

Bah!

Try this then

153 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:54:46pm

re: #142 CapeCoddah

That Stinks. (no pun intended) Been there. Sorry.


They left too many men on base. If we can't make it, go Red Siox!

154 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:54:54pm
155 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:55:02pm

re: #150 The Shadow Do

Holy moley. I think I understood this.

Then you need another drink.

156 The Shadow Do  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:55:41pm

re: #75 taxfreekiller

By the by anyone know the real good recipe for cooking alligator gar fish?

Gar soup. Boil for three days minimum

157 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:56:15pm

re: #153 opnion

They left too many men on base. If we can't make it, go Red Siox!

Lol, thanks...I think.

158 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:56:28pm

re: #152 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Bah!

Try this then

OMG, my first wife! She was too possevive, ya know?

159 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:56:49pm

re: #141 MacGregor

I would be worried if I were a weapons specialist trying to figure out an answer to a nano-scale attack and the scientist next to me says something like "We can't figure that out because God designed it and it is too perfect for us to try to understand.

I get what you're saying but, not everyone who believes that God made it all also put everything beyond our reach!

What are the stars if not a destiny?

160 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:05pm

re: #122 Spar Kling

The "IBL" (Inquiry Based Learning) he claims is being abused is actually a good thing

Really? That part scared the hell out of me because of this:

EE gives its authors the chance to determine what information is relevant for students in order to apply IBL to evolution

Notice it doesn't give teachers the chance, or scientists the chance to determine what is relevant, but the authors of the book. Authors whose mission it is to intentionally mislead children into disregarding the veracity of evolution. That isn't IBL, it's IBS (Intentional Bullshit) and it's wrong- morally, intellectually, and scientifically wrong.

161 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:07pm

re: #157 CapeCoddah

Lol, thanks...I think.

Typo, Go Red SOX!

162 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:34pm

re: #141 MacGregor

I would be worried if I were a weapons specialist trying to figure out an answer to a nano-scale attack and the scientist next to me says something like "We can't figure that out because God designed it and it is too perfect for us to try to understand.

I'd be worried if you were as weapons specialist also !

j/k

163 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:46pm

re: #161 opnion

LOL

164 swamprat  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:51pm

But if Creationism were real, it would prove the existence of god. And if the existence of God were proven, there would be no faith. And without faith, God would be just another dull, souless physical phenomena.....Thusly, creationism is anti-religion. Example here.

165 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:58:24pm

re: #144 Outrider

Sounds a hell of a lot easier. Less time too. In Japan they would charge you an arm and leg by calling it sashimi.

Addicted since '63. Donated massive amounts of $ to the chefs retirements all over the world.

Yum!

166 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:59:25pm

re: #164 swamprat

But if Creationism were real, it would prove the existence of god. And if the existence of God were proven, there would be no faith. And without faith, God would be just another dull, souless physical phenomena.....Thusly, creationism is anti-religion. Example here.


I was going to say something similar, but you said it well.

167 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:00:35pm

re: #162 sattv4u2

I'd be worried if you were as weapons specialist also !

j/k


ROFL!

168 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:01:05pm

Good ni.ght Lizards. Catch ya later.

169 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:01:59pm

re: #164 swamprat

But if Creationism were real, it would prove the existence of god. And if the existence of God were proven, there would be no faith. And without faith, God would be just another dull, souless physical phenomena.....Thusly, creationism is anti-religion. Example here.

It gets weirder with intelligent design... ID of course says there is a designer, but won't say what it is, who it is, what methods it used, where it came from, what its intention was, where it is now, what it looks like, etc.

Creationists tend to think acceptance of ID leads into acceptance of biblical creationism. It actually doesn't do anything but let anybody fill in those stated blanks with whatever unprovable belief they have no matter how insane.

170 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:02:12pm

re: #159 MandyManners

... not everyone who believes that God made it all also put everything beyond our reach!

What are the stars if not a destiny?

Strongly agree Mandy.

171 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:02:21pm

re: #164 swamprat

on the other hand ,, there IS that pesky "missing link" thingy ! (unless, of course, it's him!)

[Link: www.anniemayhem.com...]

172 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:03:12pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

QUESTION FOR THE CLASS

Lets say you are an Evolutionist. Lets say the guy at work sitting in the cubicle next to you is a Creationsit. You two talk about things,, football,,, the new secretaries ass,,, the Thai restaurant that just opened across the street,,,, Obama/McCain,,,right ?

How often do you get into Evo/ ID "chats" ?

Don't be a pig. What if the new secretary administrative assistant is a man?

173 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:03:58pm

re: #172 Sharmuta

Don't be a pig. What if the new secretary administrative assistant is a man?

sorry,,, I'm pre-PC ,, so ,,,, how's HIS ass ?

174 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:04:12pm

re: #172 Sharmuta

LOL ;D

175 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:05:30pm

re: #165 Bobibutu

Addicted since '63. Donated massive amounts of $ to the chefs retirements all over the world.

Yum!

Yeah, I ate a lot of it when I was in Okinawa. Don't really trust it so much here in Georgia. Called bait, don't you know. ;-)>

176 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:06:14pm
177 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:07:08pm

re: #170 MacGregor

Strongly agree Mandy.

Not everything we turn our hand to is constructive. NBC weapons come to mind. So does gun-powder.

That's the gift of Eden: the power to choose which path we take. And, the burden of responsibility.

178 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:07:36pm

re: #173 sattv4u2

sorry,,, I'm pre-PC ,, so ,,,, how's HIS ass ?

Not as important as his personality and intellect.

179 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:08:13pm

re: #164 swamprat

But if Creationism were real, it would prove the existence of god. And if the existence of God were proven, there would be no faith. And without faith, God would be just another dull, souless physical phenomena.....Thusly, creationism is anti-religion. Example here.

Also, Creationism leads directly to contradiction of God's nature, if you follow St. Augustine's arguments, in that if God created everything to be perfect In His Own Image, and we (humans) are physically imperfect (in "design", as it were), then the Creationist/ "Intelligent Design" belief system mandates that God deliberately made Man physically imperfect- a direct contradiction of His nature as defined by Christian beliefs.

/If you follow any illogical belief system back to its basic tenets, you will inevitably find that they are self-contradictory.

cheers

eon

180 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:08:35pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

Not as important as his personality and intellect.

IBS. ;)

181 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:09:40pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

Not as important as his personality bank account and intellect 401 K plan.


BAD SATT ,, BAD BAD BAD

182 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:10:15pm
183 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:10:50pm
184 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:11:14pm

re: #179 eon

Does the Bible specifically that God made everything perfect? I don't know where that idea comes from.

185 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:11:39pm

re: #179 eon

Also, Creationism leads directly to contradiction of God's nature, if you follow St. Augustine's arguments, in that if God created everything to be perfect In His Own Image, and we (humans) are physically imperfect (in "design", as it were), then the Creationist/ "Intelligent Design" belief system mandates that God deliberately made Man physically imperfect- a direct contradiction of His nature as defined by Christian beliefs.

/If you follow any illogical belief system back to its basic tenets, you will inevitably find that they are self-contradictory.

cheers

eon

Didn't imperfection come about as a result of our choice to disobey in Eden?

186 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:12:18pm

re: #185 MandyManners

Didn't imperfection come about as a result of our choice to disobey in Eden?

DID ADAM AND EVE HAVE NAVELS?

187 Cicero05  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:12:38pm

Reading Timmer's review, it really strikes you just how cynical and intentionally deceptive the Discovery Institute types are. They have to know that their pet theory isn't accepted by any legitimate part of the scientific community because their purported description of the scientific landscape needs to be so deliberately edited. If they gave a balanced view of their subject, ID would be laughed out of the classrioom and they know it.

The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales. They're perfectly happy to have students go away with the false idea that science in general is confused, uncertain and never to be trusted, and that one crank's crackpot theory is just as worthy of respect as the consensus of the legitimate scientific community. Why wouldn't a student just decide that nobody really knows anything and science has no inherent value to society as a means for uncovering truth?

These are bad people with a deviously harmful agenda.

188 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:13:41pm

re: #184 Basho

Does the Bible specifically that God made everything perfect? I don't know where that idea comes from.

My Mom always told me god made ME perfect !

(of course, when I was in my pre- teens, I found out how well mom lied ! )

189 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:14:31pm

re: #186 MandyManners

DID ADAM AND EVE HAVE NAVELS?

Just Armies. Not close enough to enough water for Navels.....oh! You meant Navel Oranges......No. It was an apple tree. ;-)>

190 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:14:35pm
191 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:14:47pm

re: #122 Spar Kling

Now the creationist shills are showing up.

192 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:15:29pm

re: #175 Outrider

Yeah, I ate a lot of it when I was in Okinawa. Don't really trust it so much here in Georgia. Called bait, don't you know. ;-)>

They have it pretty much standardized now - quality control - so you get like McDonalds only it's sushi. Most everything is air shipped to Japan - processed and then shipped worldwide.

Used to dive in SoCal. Collected Urchins and brought to a sushi bar there in a gunny sack - Da master would feed us for free and sell the rest to the public for astro prices.

There is nothing like fresh Uni.

193 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:15:36pm

re: #181 sattv4u2

Yeah- that's pretty insulting.

194 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:15:53pm

re: #186 MandyManners

DID ADAM AND EVE HAVE NAVELS?

More importantly, were they "innies" or "outties"?

195 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:16:03pm

re: #187 Cicero05

I agree. Damaging the education of our science students is a form of sabotage of a national resource, and it's happening during wartime.

196 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:16:07pm

re: #187 Cicero05

. . .

The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales. They're perfectly happy to have students go away with the false idea that science in general is confused, uncertain and never to be trusted, and that one crank's crackpot theory is just as worthy of respect as the consensus of the legitimate scientific community. Why wouldn't a student just decide that nobody really knows anything and science has no inherent value to society as a means for uncovering truth?

These are bad people with a deviously harmful agenda.

I agree these people have a deviously harmful agenda. I agree the DI are frauds, and that they are willing to sacrifice the education of our kids to their own agenda.

However, I disagree with you that religion is nothing more than "stupid religious fairy tales", or "crank crackpot" theories.

197 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:16:45pm

re: #189 Outrider

Just Armies. Not close enough to enough water for Navels.....oh! You meant Navel Oranges......No. It was an apple tree. ;-)>

Since the Bible doesn't specify, I prefer to think of it as a pear tree.

198 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:16:56pm

re: #131 jaunte

Did you ever find those papers you claimed to know about that supported Intelligent Design and had been 'unjustly' excluded from peer review?

No, he didn't. It was a phony claim, and he continues to avoid questions about it.

199 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:17:29pm

re: #194 Tarkloon

More importantly, were they "innies" or "outties"?

Or, maybe "evensies".

200 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:17:57pm

re: #198 Charles

I'm going to keep asking him, and maybe change his name to Joe Biden if he continues to just make things up to score a debating point.

201 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:19:02pm

re: #185 MandyManners

Didn't imperfection come about as a result of our choice to disobey in Eden?

Thyt wouldn't explain flightless birds or the botched up Panda thumb, or the optic blind spot many mammals share. After all, according to Genesis (as well as the evolutionary template), they were made or evolved a few days or several million years before we evolved or were made, depending upon whether or not you quaff mythic koolaid as literal wine.

202 Russkilitlover  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:19:04pm

I don't have kids. And I've been out of school long enough that I only hear about curriculum through third and fourth person review. Where IS creationism being taught or pushed to be taught. Most complaints I hear from parents is that the secular agenda is devastating. I have never heard about creationism in public schools or even relativity vis-a-vis DI/Evoloution. I live in So Cal and would think that this would be a battle line.

Charles, I know that you are passionate on this subject.

203 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:19:18pm

re: #179 eon

Also, Creationism leads directly to contradiction of God's nature, if you follow St. Augustine's arguments, in that if God created everything to be perfect In His Own Image, and we (humans) are physically imperfect (in "design", as it were), then the Creationist/ "Intelligent Design" belief system mandates that God deliberately made Man physically imperfect- a direct contradiction of His nature as defined by Christian beliefs.

Not to mention all the hours that creationists seem to WANT to believe that God personally put in to the design of things like smallpox, the AIDS virus etc.

204 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:20:13pm

re: #187 Cicero05

The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales.

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

205 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:21:03pm

re: #203 Jimmah

Not to mention all the hours that creationists seem to WANT to believe that God personally put in to the design of things like smallpox, the AIDS virus etc.

Those were created by the US government.

/Obama's mind

206 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:21:22pm

re: #106 Bobibutu

What you said.

Good post!

207 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:10pm

re: #201 Salamantis

Thyt wouldn't explain flightless birds or the botched up Panda thumb, or the optic blind spot many mammals share. After all, according to Genesis (as well as the evolutionary template), they were made or evolved a few days or several million years before we evolved or were made, depending upon whether or not you quaff mythic koolaid as literal wine.

/and exactly how many Christians believe that, dodging the stick

208 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:16pm

That's an interesting idea - that all genes have existed for the entire span of life on earth, and that they only express when the time is right. I'd never heard of that. So what is it, the thought is that God created it all in the beginning, and since then it's been revealing itself bit by bit?

209 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:30pm

re: #204 MandyManners

To clarify my response to cicero:
I agree with this part:
"The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students..."
but not the rest of his comment.

210 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:40pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

Believing in God is not a stupid religious fairy tale.

Believing he created the world 5000-10000 years ago and that dinosaurs and cavemen lived together and the Grand Canyon was formed over a couple days during the Biblical flood are stupid fairy tales

211 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:48pm

re: #207 Killian Bundy

you've got mail, (I think)

212 right_on_target  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:23:06pm

Louisiana Science Education Act regarding supplemental scientific teaching. There is no mention of creationism but evolution is cited as an example.

So far there haven't been any public school districts that have acted
on the law which was written to begin with the current school year.

213 Cicero05  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:02pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

Owww. That hurt.

My use if the term "religious fairy tale" was meant to refer to the idea that the species were individually created by a divine being. I remain respectful of religion and do not find the operation of evolutionary laws to be inconsistent with the idea of God at all.

214 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:05pm

re: #183 taxfreekiller

TFK - did you ever meet or know Barry Harder (deceased) Cal Berkeley student - worked on the Polaris nose cone design and built a-bombs back in the '60s? Flipped flopped back and forth between Berkeley and Sandia for several years before he went on to MIT. My best boyhood friend.

He raved about the overtime and slept in the assembly room as many others did.

215 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:09pm

re: #210 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Tru dat.

216 Intrepid  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:26pm

We had a drive by post on the previous thread - bashing Palin and kinda calling Charles out for saying Sarah Palin won the debate.

And it got all bold in many places.

/just reporting....

217 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:37pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

amen

218 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:42pm

re: #210 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Believing in God is not a stupid religious fairy tale.

Believing he created the world 5000-10000 years ago and that dinosaurs and cavemen lived together and the Grand Canyon was formed over a couple days during the Biblical flood are stupid fairy tales

Maybe so. Maybe not.

Anyway, I gotta' go tend to my depository of DNA. bbialb

219 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:50pm

re: #196 reine.de.tout

I agree these people have a deviously harmful agenda. I agree the DI are frauds, and that they are willing to sacrifice the education of our kids to their own agenda.

However, I disagree with you that religion is nothing more than "stupid religious fairy tales", or "crank crackpot" theories.

He didn't say "religion is nothing more than stupid religious fairy tales or crank crackpot theories" did he? No, he didn't.

220 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:25:05pm

re: #212 right_on_target

Louisiana Science Education Act regarding supplemental scientific teaching. There is no mention of creationism but evolution is cited as an example.

So far there haven't been any public school districts that have acted
on the law which was written to begin with the current school year.

I'm looking forward to Holocaust revisionist materials being brought into history class. Won't that be wonderful? Perhaps pat pukeanan can assist them.

/

221 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:26:06pm

re: #211 sattv4u2

you've got mail, (I think)

/at least 200 messages a day

222 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:26:48pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

He didn't say "The belief in a God who made it all is a stupid religious fairy tale" did he? No, he didn't.

223 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:27:23pm
224 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:27:46pm

re: #206 NY Nana

What you said.

Good post!

Thanks. I seem to get one in now and again.

225 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:27:48pm

re: #221 Killian Bundy

/at least 200 messages a day

yeah ,, maybe so ,,,especially if you count all those Viagra ads and rich people in Africa who want to give you millions just for helping them ,.,,,,!, but mine is REALLY REALLY important !

226 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:27:50pm

re: #220 Sharmuta

I'm looking forward to Holocaust revisionist materials being brought into history class. Won't that be wonderful? Perhaps pat pukeanan can assist them.

/

What was it Ahmidinijad said at Columbia University regarding that? Teach the controversy, show alternate points of view, etc.? Sounded like it came straight from the DI.

227 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:28:05pm

re: #185 MandyManners

Didn't imperfection come about as a result of our choice to disobey in Eden?

re: #184 Basho

Does the Bible specifically that God made everything perfect? I don't know where that idea comes from.

I'm referring to the ID subset, which holds that everything has always existed in its present form, including Man. By this standard, Man was created "as is", complete with all the vulnerabilities that he has had to deal with throughout the ages.

Which means that the Creationist/ID crowd cannot possibly believe in their version of Man's origin, and the Biblical story of the Garden of Eden, simultaneously. Their "hypothesis" and the first chapters of Genesis are directly contradictory, and mutually exclusive.

This is what happens when you try to subvert science in service to a religious belief system. A similar conflict between the fossil record and catastrophism resulted in first Horbiger's "Eternal Ice" theory, and later Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision" theory, which fortunately ran aground early on when people concluded that when Velikovsky was saying that the planet Venus was originally a comet, he was talking complete drivel. Which he was, just like the IDiots.

cheers

eon

228 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:28:22pm

re: #217 reine.de.tout

amen

But he didn't say that, did he? No, he didn't.

229 Russkilitlover  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:28:49pm

The day before my dad died, I was at his hospital bedside visiting. He was a bit restless and in and out of consciousness. It came time for the shift change of nurses, dad had to be turned, bed sheets changed, etc. I took my leave. I said, 'gotta go dad and make dinner. I'll see you tomorrow.' He came out of his....stupor? delirium? and looked me in the eye, nodding his head enthusiastically. "Tonight's my last night," he said. He died the next afternoon. It hit this agnostic hard upside the head. Something is out there and neither science nor faith has completely explained it. Therefore, pursue the science and keep the faith private.

That's my position, in a nut shell.

230 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:30:45pm

The Discovery Institute vs Copyright

Excellent video re their fraudulent lawsuit.

231 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:33:45pm

re: #224 Bobibutu

I seem to get one in now and again very often.

Fixed it for you!

232 Globular Cluster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:33:52pm

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Joe Biden is getting credit for being more “factual” and substantive than Sarah Palin in last night’s debate. He shouldn’t. A good deal of what Biden said was exaggerated, distorted or simply false — especially in his nominal area of expertise, foreign policy.

Let’s start with Iraq. Biden claimed that John McCain was the “odd man out” in his plans for the war, while the Bush administration and the Iraqi government had adopted the strategy of Barack Obama. The truth is just the opposite. The administration and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki are still negotiating about the future of the U.S. troop presence, but according to the latest reports they are close to settling on a target date for withdrawal at the end of 2011. That’s a year and a half after Obama’s 16-month timetable would run out. More importantly, Bush, Maliki, U.S. commanders and McCain all agree that the pullout should be “conditions-based” -- it should go forward only as Iraqi forces are able to take over. As Biden confirmed last night, the Obama pullout is not based on conditions; his theory is that the timetable will force action by Iraqis, rather than the other way around. When he visited Iraq in July, Obama was candid enough to confirm that Gen. David Petraeus, Maliki and leaders of the Sunni militia forces all opposed his strategy. On Iraq, he remains the odd man out.

Biden also charged that the United States spends more in Iraq in three weeks than it has in total in Afghanistan. As Chris Wilson of Slate points out, that comes close to being true only if total U.S. spending in Iraq is compared only with non-military spending in Afghanistan -- and even then it’s not true. The United States spends about $8 billion in three weeks in Iraq, compared with a total of $12 billion in non-military spending since 2001 in Afghanistan. In total, Congress has authorized $172 billion in spending for Afghanistan -- or about 61 weeks of spending in Iraq.

Biden said he could find no difference between McCain and Bush on policy toward Israel, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan. He’s right -- there is no real difference. But what he failed to disclose is that there is also no significant difference between Obama’s proposals for those countries and what the Bush administration is doing. Biden denied that Obama agreed to meet unconditionally with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. There he was both right and wrong: Obama did say he would do so in answer to a debate question more than a year ago, but he has since hedged his position considerably. As a practical matter, it’s very unlikely Obama would meet Ahmadinejad if he became president.

Lastly, Biden asserted that both he and Obama had opposed the staging of Palestinian legislative elections in 2005, and had predicted that if they were held Hamas would win. In fact, while Obama signed a letter (with more than 90 other senators) expressing concern that Hamas would participate in the election without disarming, he did not predict the Hamas victory. And Biden did not sign the letter; indeed, he served as an observer at the election that he now says should not have gone forward.

233 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:34:20pm
234 right_on_target  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:34:21pm

The Louisiana Science Education Act also opens the door for the Troofers to "educate" our youth with supplemental literature. ID is just the first foot in the door, there will be others to dumb down America.

235 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:35:51pm

There's some rather blaring grammatical errors in the Schwabe paper, which you wouldn't usually find in a scientific paper.


Considering details it is also the most complex process human curiosity has faced since the rather recent begin of the scientific era...

or..

To the extend permitted by the genomic potential of each unit of the eukaryotic pro-forms,

236 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:36:12pm

re: #219 Tigger2005

He didn't say "religion is nothing more than stupid religious fairy tales or crank crackpot theories" did he? No, he didn't.

I quoted him.
It's what it sounded like to me.
You can think whatever you want.

237 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:36:21pm

re: #234 right_on_target

Soon Harvard Med School will start having classes teaching acupuncture. Oh wait...

238 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:37:12pm

re: #235 cliffster

Looks more like typos that don't usually show up on spellchecker.

239 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:37:14pm

re: #234 right_on_target

The Louisiana Science Education Act also opens the door for the Troofers to "educate" our youth with supplemental literature. ID is just the first foot in the door, there will be others to dumb down America.

Holocaust revisionism, Trooferism, ID, islam...

It's a slippery slope to hell in a hand basket as far as our children's education goes. "Supplemental material" is the new wedge, and it will be abused by others if allowed to stand.

240 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:37:20pm

re: #233 taxfreekiller

Some will have a calm last long moment, some will never know it came,some will fear the whole moment, then the moment will pass,
and there will be light if you need it.

I'm hoping for Audrey Hepburn, actually.

/Like Richard Dreyfuss in Always.

cheers

eon

241 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:37:22pm

re: #227 eon

Velikovsky - he is the inspiration/starting point for those "Electric Sun" theory idiots isn't he? That's another 'controversy' that should never be taught.

242 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:38:04pm

re: #236 reine.de.tout

I quoted him.
It's what it sounded like to me.
You can think whatever you want.

I'm not thinking whatever I want.

That is not what he said.

243 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:38:35pm

re: #240 eon

I'm hoping for Audrey Hepburn, actually.

/Like Richard Dreyfuss in Always.

cheers

eon

Awwww! Me too.

244 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:39:04pm

re: #234 right_on_target

The Louisiana Science Education Act also opens the door for the Troofers to "educate" our youth with supplemental literature. ID is just the first foot in the door, there will be others to dumb down America.

Some home school their kids in order to teach them ID. Our granddaughter is being home schooled in order to avoid this "dumbing down" process and "teach at the slowest students pace" concepts. These two processes have done more to harm our kids and young adults than anything else.

245 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:39:07pm

How many fronts are we fighting in the war to save civilization?

246 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:40:13pm

re: #237 Basho

Soon Harvard Med School will start having classes teaching acupuncture. Oh wait...

Get out of that wheelchair and walk-ah....you are ahealed-ah.....-101

247 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:40:39pm
248 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:40:48pm

re: #242 Tigger2005

I'm not thinking whatever I want.

That is not what he said.

His quote:

". . . sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales", which is the same stupid religious fairy tales I believe in.

So, he is calling religion "stupid religious fairy tales."

I don't agree with him that religion is stupid religious fairy tales.

Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?

249 solomonpanting  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:40:50pm

re: #169 Basho

It gets weirder with intelligent design... ID of course says there is a designer, but won't say what it is, who it is, what methods it used, where it came from, what its intention was, where it is now, what it looks like, etc.

Creationists tend to think acceptance of ID leads into acceptance of biblical creationism. It actually doesn't do anything but let anybody fill in those stated blanks with whatever unprovable belief they have no matter how insane.

Not unlike a certain candidate for POTUS.

250 stevieray  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:41:06pm

re: #245 MandyManners

How many fronts are we fighting in the war to save civilization?

Internal or external?

251 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:42:31pm
252 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:42:32pm
253 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:42:54pm
254 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:43:04pm
255 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:43:41pm

re: #122 Spar Kling

I read the review and found it pretty much of a rehash, full of sound and fury but lacking in convincing substance. The "IBL" (Inquiry Based Learning) he claims is being abused is actually a good thing, while the doctrinaire approach he seems to advocate regarding teaching the Immutable Fact of Evolution Beyond all Inquiry and Dispute, is death to free inquiry. Incidentally, IBL is better known as "the discovery approach" and is the best way of teaching free thinking scientists (and is the worst way of teaching the Future Bureaucrats of America).

The creationist authors not only choose what alternatives are and are not available to the students in order to bias and slant them towards the authors' own agenda, but also skew the significance of those alternatives which they do present. If you have landscaped your own back yard, you know what can and can not be dug up in it; so much for 'student discovery'.

Nevertheless . . .

I've always been intrigued by the idea of multiple origins and trees of life rather than the unlikely single tree of life being preached in Science classrooms today. I disagree with the orchard pruning analogy the textbook uses and agree that any "leading students down a garden path" approach is condescending and contrary to scientific investigation.

This bizarre notion of a dense thicket of independently emerging and arising sources for life is especially ludicrous, considering the immense effort that creationists expend endeavoring to convince others that a SINGLE accidental upwelling of life in the absence of intelligent design is statistically prohibitive (which it isn't). But I guess when one has already abandoned and forsaken logic and evidence, such a little thing as a blatant self-contradiction isn't too troubling. Besides, they're assuming their intelligent designer, and figure on multiple seedings, just like it says in Genesis.

I also disagree that any ID is needed to "prune the orchard," because natural disasters, environmental change, and increased competition for ecological niches can remove closely related species, creating additional genomic distance.

To be precise, the Disco Dewdes don't explain a damn thing; all they do is snipe from the sidelines at the scientific explanations of others. And why? Because they cannot do credible empirical science given their dogmatic assumptions; the evidence betrays them every time.

I vehemently disagree that this part of science is immutable and should be taught as such in order not to "confuse" students. This is elitist snobbery. The fringe theory of today often becomes the scientific gospel of tomorrow (catastrophism and continental drift are two examples that immediately come to mind).

Actually, what we see is the dogmas of yesterday (astrology, alchemy, the doctrine of signatures, phlogiston, flat-earth geocentrism, creationism, etc.) being replaced by the empirically corroborative theories of today (astronomy, chemistry, pharmacology, physics, plantary geography, evolution, etc.).

Oh, come on. This sort of ranting and fuming is not helpful. I haven't read the book, only the review, but while I probably would very much dislike the book from what he describes, there are surely less emotional way of rejecting creationist propoganda.

I also read the review. The reviewer presented a plethora of irrefutable empirical reasons to keep that pack of creationist lies from crawling within a country mile of a public high school science class.

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

- sk

256 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:44:15pm

re: #241 Jimmah

Velikovsky - he is the inspiration/starting point for those "Electric Sun" theory idiots isn't he? That's another 'controversy' that should never be taught.

Yeah. Basically he wrote a stupid book that tried to show that all those mythical events that many cultures have talked about throughout history were all real events caused by astronomical activity that he made up out of his arse. It sounded kinda like the Stargate TV series storyline. He was pretty popular until people started realizing how insane and nonsensical his BS was.

257 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:45:29pm

re: #246 Outrider

Get out of that wheelchair and walk-ah....you are ahealed-ah.....-101

LMAO HAHAHA!

258 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:46:02pm

re: #236 reine.de.tout

I quoted him.
It's what it sounded like to me.
You can think whatever you want.

You're the one who is "thinking whatever you want" and making things up about what somebody said.

The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales.

They're perfectly happy to have students go away with the false idea that science in general is confused, uncertain and never to be trusted, and that one crank's crackpot theory is just as worthy of respect as the consensus of the legitimate scientific community.

He did not say "religion is stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories" did he? No, he didn't. He was very specifically referring to the beliefs and crackpot theories of "these Discovery Institute frauds." He was not calling religion in general "stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories."

259 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:46:09pm

Anyways, this was interesting:

On the other hand one must wonder what evidence could be cited for a factor that could induce so called derived or adaptive features in
animals as they are established above ground? And how would such
a factor influence the genome in an animal to cause changes? The
languages simply do not match. Changes in living animals, if such
were possible, would have to be induced by nucleic acids, not by
the environment. True, the environment can select but as the word
implies only if there is a variety from which to select, and that means
after the fact.

That seems to be missing the point entirely. Plus he seems to be saying that "selection" happens. But it selects based on what genes decided to start expressing themselves? In that case, it's not really environment selecting anything at all.

260 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:47:02pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

The Genesis literalist belief in a God who made millions of species independently and as is in six days six thousand years ago, though, is about as stupid as religious fairy tales get, if stupidity is measured by empirically provable untruth.

261 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:48:29pm

re: #241 Jimmah

Velikovsky - he is the inspiration/starting point for those "Electric Sun" theory idiots isn't he? That's another 'controversy' that should never be taught.

We covered his theories in Astrophysics in high school (senior year). As I recall, we got several good laughs out of them, and nominated him for a Darwin Award*

* Satirical award created by the Harvard Lampoon in 1970. The notional statuette was a monkey with a revolver in its hand, the hammer cocked, looking down the barrel, with the base having the inscription "Stupid People Shouldn't Breed". Since then it has become a catchphrase/meme, primarily spread by news items about stupid criminals- like the bank robber in Austin , TX in 2005 who, when the alarm went off, was trapped between the inner and outer doors of the entrance, essentially in a box made of bulletproof acrylic "glass".

Which he tried to shoot his way out of.

He was cooling off in the morgue two hours later.

cheers

eon

262 right_on_target  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:48:54pm

re: #244 Outrider

Some home school their kids in order to teach them ID. Our granddaughter is being home schooled in order to avoid this "dumbing down" process and "teach at the slowest students pace" concepts. These two processes have done more to harm our kids and young adults than anything else.

________________________
Fortunately I live in one of the parishes of LA with the best schools. Our school board is NOT in favor of ID, Trooferism or other idiotic ism. I do know of a few families that home school and the reason was for religious instruction.

263 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:49:11pm

re: #258 Tigger2005

He did not say "religion is stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories" did he? No, he didn't. He was very specifically referring to the beliefs and crackpot theories of "these Discovery Institute frauds." He was not calling religion in general "stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories."

"THEIR" stupid religious fairy tales is Christianity, which includes MY FAITH.

If he wants to call "their" tales "stupid religious fairy tales", then he's also talking to me, even though I have absolutely no support for the DI or "creationism".

I do not agree with him that religious beliefs are "stupid fairy tales".

I think I am allowed to disagree with him on that.

264 kynna  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:49:19pm

Sorry to go OT but I want to remind everyone to go see An American Carol this weekend. These days a movie has to have a big opening weekend or it's dead. As Rush said today, the actors especially are putting their necks out there. Particularly Kevin Farley who doesn't have a career foundation to fall back on.

Anyway -- hoping to spur a groundswell so Hollywood has incentive to evolve in a positive way. ;D

265 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:49:45pm

re: #248 reine.de.tout

His quote:

". . . sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales", which is the same stupid religious fairy tales I believe in.

So, he is calling religion "stupid religious fairy tales."

I don't agree with him that religion is stupid religious fairy tales.

Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?

You conveniently leave out the first part of his quote.

Then, you not so subtly hint you're being oppressed.

266 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:50:17pm

Quick question, then I'm out for the evening:

re: #38 Wishing

re: #8 HelloDare

The arguments supporting intelligent design are beyond stupid.

Well call me stupid then...i really dont give a rip =)

Were you making a joke about your nic, like a play on words?
As is: Arguments supporting intelligent design = wishing.

If so, well played. If not, it's quite the hilarious coincidence.

267 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:50:20pm

re: #265 Tigger2005

You conveniently leave out the first part of his quote.

Then, you not so subtly hint you're being oppressed.

I don't think I'm being oppressed.

I disagreed. That's all I said.

268 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:50:50pm

re: #256 Basho

That's how the Electric sun theory comes across in their stupid docu-movie on the subject. An attempt to base astronomy around a literal interpretation of ancient texts and symbolic religious diagrams etc. They conclude that nuclear physics is all wrong, and the sun is really a giant electric bulb in space. About as bad as it gets.

269 Cicero05  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:50:58pm

re: #260 Salamantis

The Genesis literalist belief in a God who made millions of species independently and as is in six days six thousand years ago, though, is about as stupid as religious fairy tales get, if stupidity is measured by empirically provable untruth.

That's what I meant when I said "stupid religious fairy tale" in my post, #187. I have never said that religion or belief in God is stupid, and I never would say it.

270 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:08pm

re: #263 reine.de.tout

"THEIR" stupid religious fairy tales is Christianity, which includes MY FAITH.

If he wants to call "their" tales "stupid religious fairy tales", then he's also talking to me, even though I have absolutely no support for the DI or "creationism".

I do not agree with him that religious beliefs are "stupid fairy tales".

I think I am allowed to disagree with him on that.

He did not say "religion is stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories." Unless you think all religion is Christianity.

271 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:10pm

re: #207 Killian Bundy

/and exactly how many Christians believe that, dodging the stick

A whole bunch of Christians. They even have a name (Genesis Biblical Literalists), several websites
[Link: creationontheweb.com...]
[Link: www.answersingenesis.org...]
and are funded in the many millions each year.

272 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:12pm

re: #265 Tigger2005

You conveniently leave out the first part of his quote.

Then, you not so subtly hint you're being oppressed.

Re-read my post.
re: #196 reine.de.tout

I agree these people have a deviously harmful agenda. I agree the DI are frauds, and that they are willing to sacrifice the education of our kids to their own agenda.

However, I disagree with you that religion is nothing more than "stupid religious fairy tales", or "crank crackpot" theories.

I disagreed with him. You say I am subtly hinting that I'm being oppressed.

Are you trying to convert me to something? I said I disagreed. That's all. How you can read into that that I think I'm oppressed is beyond me.

273 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:23pm

re: #266 Slumbering Behemoth

Well by all means, enjoy the coincidence =)

274 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #245 MandyManners

How many fronts are we fighting in the war to save civilization?

First - we will never be defeated.

The fight has been going on for many centuries.

Fronts? Active - passive - overt - covert?

Mandy - just get on with your and your kids life - know your 6 is covered. That's the best that can be done.

And if sh*t hits the fan - we do what we can do in the moment.

275 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:46pm

re: #259 cliffster

Anyways, this was interesting:

That seems to be missing the point entirely. Plus he seems to be saying that "selection" happens. But it selects based on what genes decided to start expressing themselves? In that case, it's not really environment selecting anything at all.

Sorry, his point immediately afterwards was that natural selection at a multicellular level generally would require entire organs to pop up out of nowhere which would require an insane number of simultaneous mutations all aligned. That's at least a good point to raise. So I think he was just feeling like he had to say some shit before he made that point, even it it's stupid shit. Doesn't say much for the guy making the points.

276 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:53:53pm

re: #270 Tigger2005

He did not say "religion is stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories." Unless you think all religion is Christianity.

Actually that should say, "unless you think all religion, and all Christianity, is the very specific creationist beliefs of the D.I."

277 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:54:04pm

re: #208 cliffster

That's an interesting idea - that all genes have existed for the entire span of life on earth, and that they only express when the time is right. I'd never heard of that. So what is it, the thought is that God created it all in the beginning, and since then it's been revealing itself bit by bit?

It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian.

278 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:54:46pm

Tigger for the record I also thought that Cicero diminished his argument with his tedious snipe at religion. It's easy enough to counter the IDiotarians at Discovery institute without taking gratuitously offensive swipes at religious. Cicero smells like a weak-knee'd atheist. If you truly don't believe you really don't find it necessary to denigrate religion in general.

279 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:55:18pm

re: #260 Salamanders

Can you link your essays again?

/I neglected to bookmark them

280 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:55:20pm

re: #277 Salamantis

It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian.

Did the rabbits have sneakers yet?

281 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:55:38pm

re: #277 Salamantis

It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian.

I said it was interesting, not that it was true. I've never heard that particular angle. I will say that you didn't make any point with what you said, other than, "because I say so"

282 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:56:47pm

re: #251 MandyManners

Not all knowledge is good.

Knowledge is power - Babe.

283 right_on_target  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:57:20pm

Erich Von Danniken says E. T. was behind it all. He's got to be right, look at all the books he wrote and sold.

/

284 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:58:08pm

re: #276 Tigger2005

Actually that should say, "unless you think all religion, and all Christianity, is the very specific creationist beliefs of the D.I."

Honestly, I think you've confused me with:
re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

Cicero already addressed that here:
re: #213 Cicero05

Owww. That hurt.

My use if the term "religious fairy tale" was meant to refer to the idea that the species were individually created by a divine being. I remain respectful of religion and do not find the operation of evolutionary laws to be inconsistent with the idea of God at all.

285 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:58:17pm

re: #240 eon

/Like Richard Dreyfuss in Always.

That's a great movie. I might be scorned to say it was better than "Mr. Hollands opus" or even "What about Bob!"

286 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:00:25pm

re: #285 MacGregor

That's a great movie. I might be scorned to say it was better than "Mr. Hollands opus" or even "What about Bob!"

He is a Moonbats Moonbat, but, he was good in JAWS and What about Bob.

287 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:00:39pm

re: #272 reine.de.tout

I disagreed with him. You say I am subtly hinting that I'm being oppressed.

Are you trying to convert me to something? I said I disagreed. That's all. How you can read into that that I think I'm oppressed is beyond me.

You said "Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?"

You were "disagreeing" with something that the poster did not even say. It just "seemed" to you that he was saying ALL religion is "stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories."

I was trying to correct you, not tell you are not "allowed" to disagree with someone.

288 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:00:51pm

re: #260 Salamantis

The Genesis literalist belief in a God who made millions of species independently and as is in six days six thousand years ago, though, is about as stupid as religious fairy tales get, if stupidity is measured by empirically provable untruth.

Tell you what: KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD.

Such a belief has NO impact on anyone unless and until someone tries to force others to believe it.

Piss off.

289 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:01pm

This question may get me booted, but i will ask it anyway:
Our friends here on LGF who are not here with us tonight, but are rather honoring the Sabbath: Are u suggesting that they have been duped into believing in the God of the Sabbath? You know Creator God and all that? "In six days God created the heaven and the earth and on the seventh day he rested; therefore you will keep the Sabbath."
Am honestly curious if you see them as foolish for honoring the *seventh day* of creation as a rest day.

290 Syrah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:38pm

I still say its Turtles, Turtles all the way down.

291 Cap'n DOC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:42pm

re: #67 taxfreekiller

Oooooh... A throwback, TFK. How do you get around the teeth?

292 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:43pm

Bed time for me. Nite folks :)

293 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:49pm

re: #248 reine.de.tout

His quote:

". . . sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales", which is the same stupid religious fairy tales I believe in.

So, he is calling religion "stupid religious fairy tales."

I don't agree with him that religion is stupid religious fairy tales.

Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?

He is saying that religions CONTAIN stupid religious fairytales, and this is a matter of simple indisputrable fact, if by stupid he means empirically falsifiable; what he did NOT say was that all religion WAS was stupid fairy tales. But that's what you apparently assumed that he said.

294 musicman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:57pm

re: #260 Salamantis

The Genesis literalist belief in a God who made millions of species independently and as is in six days six thousand years ago, though, is about as stupid as religious fairy tales get, if stupidity is measured by empirically provable untruth.

Well now I just have to jump in. I believe in a God who could of done it all in six billion years, six million years, six thousand years, six hundred years, six years, six weeks, six days, six minutes or even in six seconds. The God I believe has no limits. When man tries to "out think" God is when man gets into trouble. After all I am a minister and that Bible I carry around means a whole lot to me. To me it is not a book of fairy tales. I share it with others. and let them make their own decisions.

The Word of God had it scientifically right when in Leviticus 17:11 said that the life of a creature was in the blood.

I still love this site.

295 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:02:05pm

re: #287 Tigger2005

You said "Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?"

You were "disagreeing" with something that the poster did not even say. It just "seemed" to you that he was saying ALL religion is "stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories."

I was trying to correct you, not tell you are not "allowed" to disagree with someone.

I am duly corrected, chastened and humbled.

296 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:02:13pm

I got my McCain / Palin yardsigns yesterday and put them up btw. The moonbat up the street (we have only one) then had to go out and get their Obama sign, ridiculous as it might be to campaign for Obama in Kansas.

297 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:03:09pm

re: #274 Bobibutu

First - we will never be defeated.

The fight has been going on for many centuries.

Fronts? Active - passive - overt - covert?

Mandy - just get on with your and your kids life - know your 6 is covered. That's the best that can be done.

And if sh*t hits the fan - we do what we can do in the moment.

I not only know that my 6 is covered but, I'm doing my best to cover others' sixes.

I ain't kickin' back 'spectin' others to do for me.

298 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:03:10pm

re: #289 Wishing

This question may get me booted, but i will ask it anyway:
Our friends here on LGF who are not here with us tonight, but are rather honoring the Sabbath: Are u suggesting that they have been duped into believing in the God of the Sabbath? You know Creator God and all that? "In six days God created the heaven and the earth and on the seventh day he rested; therefore you will keep the Sabbath."
Am honestly curious if you see them as foolish for honoring the *seventh day* of creation as a rest day.

Sad that you think you'd get booted for asking/saying that. You'll get roughed up and ridiculed a bit, but nobody's going to get booted for expressing an opinion.

299 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:03:37pm

re: #282 Bobibutu

Knowledge is power - Babe.

Therein is God.

300 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:03:45pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

Educating and informing people has long been the role of journalists and is now also the role of internet journalists, a.k.a. bloggers, if they choose it.

It is important to be an educated, well-informed citizen. What we choose to do with our knowledge will vary. But knowledge is power.

Charles is empowering his readers. That, in itself, is sufficient. He doesn't need to justify to you or anyone else the usefulness of his role or the further actions he or his readers might embark upon. He has taken on this job and we are learning from him. That's all. And that's enough.

301 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:04:12pm

re: #298 cliffster

Sad that you think you'd get booted for asking/saying that. You'll get roughed up and ridiculed a bit, but nobody's going to get booted for expressing an opinion.

Why ?

302 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:04:40pm

I dont think i stated an opinion.

303 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:05:16pm

re: #286 CapeCoddah

He is a Moonbats Moonbat, but, he was good in JAWS and What about Bob.

Ever see "Always"? Good Spielberg movie.

304 Cap'n DOC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:05:19pm

re: #293 Salamantis

Whose quote was it, or do I have to search for it?

305 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:05:49pm

re: #301 Wishing

Why ?

Why what? Why is it sad that you would think that?

306 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:06:15pm

re: #303 MacGregor

NO, It does not ring a bell... Not a huge TV, movie person, but I do have my favorites.

307 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:07:44pm

re: #283 right_on_target

Erich Von Daniken says E. T. was behind it all. He's got to be right, look at all the books he wrote and sold.

/

Yes, and Erich von D, a Swiss hotel-keeper who got in some trouble over financial shenanigans in Austria before coming to the U.S. in 1974, has several beliefs in common with the IDiots. Like his statement, in Gods From Outer Space, that "It is now known that early Man coexisted with the last remnants of the dinosaurs."

Sorry, Erich Baby. Only if you count alligators, crocodiles, monitor lizards, the rest of the reptile genus, and birds. There's about a 65 million year gap there between Tyrannosaurus Rex and Homo Erectus.

Unless you believe, like Scott Adams said in Dilbert, that the dinosaurs aren't extinct- just hiding behind the sofa.

cheers


eon

308 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:08:19pm

re: #303 MacGregor

Ever see "Always"? Good Spielberg movie.

I always liked "Let it ride."

309 Cap'n DOC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:08:20pm

re: #293 Salamantis

BTW - Since you are so hard to catch up with, I did not mean to imply many days ago that your patron saint was St. Polycarp.

310 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:08:50pm

re: #308 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

That was a good one too. Funny movie.

311 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:08:53pm

re: #269 Cicero05

That's what I meant when I said "stupid religious fairy tale" in my post, #187. I have never said that religion or belief in God is stupid, and I never would say it.

Thank you for the clarification.
Now that Tigger thinks I'm a complete moron needing correction.
I will continue to bow, however, before his superior intellect.
And remain suitably corrected, chastened and humbled.

312 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:01pm

re: #306 CapeCoddah

NO, It does not ring a bell... Not a huge TV, movie person, but I do have my favorites.

Maybe a good rental for a rainy night sometime. Very enjoyable and maybe a tiny bit spiritual.

313 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:21pm

re: #307 eon

wow.... so that explains all the noise over there......

314 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:32pm

re: #312 MacGregor

I will check it out, thanks!

315 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:36pm

re: #305 cliffster

Why what? Why is it sad that you would think that?

Why would i be ridiculed or roughed up? I didnt state an opinion, I asked a question.

316 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:46pm

re: #259 cliffster

That seems to be missing the point entirely. Plus he seems to be saying that "selection" happens. But it selects based on what genes decided to start expressing themselves? In that case, it's not really environment selecting anything at all.

For this contention to be true, every organism on this planet would have to share the same genome, and just have different parts expressed; this is demonstrably UNtrue.

317 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:58pm

re: #285 MacGregor

That's a great movie. I might be scorned to say it was better than "Mr. Hollands opus" or even "What about Bob!"

Any movie with Douglas A-26s is a good movie.

Ditto any movie with Audrey Hepburn.

/yes, I actually liked Breakfast at Tiffany's.

cheers

eon

318 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:10:25pm

re: #309 Cap'n DOC

BTW - Since you are so hard to catch up with, I did not mean to imply many days ago that your patron saint was St. Polycarp.

I know; I've already said no harm,. no foul.

319 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:10:32pm

re: #316 Salamantis

For this contention to be true, every organism on this planet would have to share the same genome, and just have different parts expressed; this is demonstrably UNtrue.

There, that's better.

320 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:10:55pm

re: #308 Kragar (proud to be kafir)Doesn't ring a bell. I'll check it out next time I go to blockbuster.

321 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:11:13pm

re: #300 Josephine

Charles is empowering his readers. That, in itself, is sufficient. He doesn't need to justify to you or anyone else the usefulness of his role or the further actions he or his readers might embark upon. He has taken on this job and we are learning from him. That's all. And that's enough.

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

322 Cap'n DOC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:11:29pm

re: #318 Salamantis

I just never caught up with you, and wanted to apologize. Thanks.

323 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:12:38pm

re: #263 reine.de.tout

"THEIR" stupid religious fairy tales is Christianity, which includes MY FAITH.

If he wants to call "their" tales "stupid religious fairy tales", then he's also talking to me, even though I have absolutely no support for the DI or "creationism".

I do not agree with him that religious beliefs are "stupid fairy tales".

I think I am allowed to disagree with him on that.

I believe that you said that you are Roman Catholic; your own church does not take the Genesis creation myth literally.

324 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:13:19pm

re: #282 Bobibutu

Knowledge is power - Babe.

Yabba Dabba Doo - Yogi Bear

325 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:13:38pm

re: #315 Wishing

Why would i be ridiculed or roughed up? I didnt state an opinion, I asked a question.

Hmm, let me answer with a question. Why did you start with, "this question might get me booted"?

326 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:23pm

re: #321 Killian Bundy

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

Other people may be interested in learning about these subjects, even though you prefer to remain ignorant.

327 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:27pm

re: #323 Salamantis

I believe that you said that you are Roman Catholic; your own church does not take the Genesis creation myth literally.

/and yet you won't link to your own essays, let the people decide

328 jcw46  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:34pm

re: #49 Charles

This should be a wake-up call for those who continue to insist that this subject is unimportant. The United States has slipped to an appallingly low level in science education, and one big reason is the widespread support for Dark Ages beliefs like creationism -- even among science teachers.

Although not named directly these reports do point out that HOW teachers are teaching and the curriculum being used are the points of failure that need more attention.

4th and 8th grade education overview.
What Are Science & Math Test Scores Really Telling U.S.?

329 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:40pm

re: #325 cliffster

Being booted is somewhat different from being ridiculed or roughed up. It removes you from the discussion, the latter two abuse you in it.

330 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:45pm

re: #279 Killian Bundy

Can you link your essays again?

/I neglected to bookmark them

Can you link your legal briefs?

331 Raydog[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:16:05pm
332 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:16:38pm

re: #202 Russkilitlover

I don't have kids. And I've been out of school long enough that I only hear about curriculum through third and fourth person review. Where IS creationism being taught or pushed to be taught. Most complaints I hear from parents is that the secular agenda is devastating. I have never heard about creationism in public schools or even relativity vis-a-vis DI/Evoloution. I live in So Cal and would think that this would be a battle line.

Charles, I know that you are passionate on this subject.

Long before I read about it on LGF, I read a feature article on ID in a major American magazine.

333 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:16:57pm

re: #325 cliffster

Hmm, let me answer with a question. Why did you start with, "this question might get me booted"?

actually, it was a declarative statement. Go back to the beggining of this thread and see if you don;'t think that Killian Bundy and I were for a time on the precipice of BOOTLAND

334 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:18:31pm

re: #288 MandyManners

Tell you what: KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD.

Such a belief has NO impact on anyone unless and until someone tries to force others to believe it.

Piss off.

Notice that Salamantis is expressing his reasoned opinion, not forcing others to believe it. Are non-believers supposed to lie about how religious literalism appears to them? Are we supposed to censor ourselves out of 'respect' for sensitive believers who will tell us "KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD" if we don't?

G'night.

335 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:18:41pm

re: #321 Killian Bundy

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

Spreading knowledge!

336 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:19:03pm

re: #333 sattv4u2

actually, it was a declarative statement. Go back to the beggining of this thread and see if you don;'t think that Killian Bundy and I were for a time on the precipice of BOOTLAND

Sorry satt, my question was completely unrelated to your discussion (in which I was not involved).
I am hoping someone will at least try to answer my question though.

337 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:19:22pm

re: #288 MandyManners

Tell you what: KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD.

Such a belief has NO impact on anyone unless and until someone tries to force others to believe it.

Piss off.

Empirically untrue is empirically untrue. The literal reading of Genesis has been proven to be empirically untrue by means of both DNA and radiometric dating. Facts are stubborn things, not to be denied by asinine ad hominems.

338 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:19:26pm

re: #321 Killian Bundy

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

Not the ID perpetrators, but it helps those of us who need to be on our guard against them. I had to choose a 7th grade science book for my homeschooled son - and I was very wary about my choices due to these discussions.

339 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:19:33pm

Evening gang!

What the drinking word tonight?

340 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:20:03pm

re: #329 Wishing

Being booted is somewhat different from being ridiculed or roughed up. It removes you from the discussion, the latter two abuse you in it.

Haha, maybe so. Taken objectively, one reading that might connect the dots, perhaps inaccurately, and think that you were on one particular side of that question.

341 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:20:24pm

re: #323 Salamantis

I believe that you said that you are Roman Catholic; your own church does not take the Genesis creation myth literally.

No, it does not, neither do I. Nor do I support DI or creationism, and I have made that crystal clear over a number of months.

Cicero has posted a clarification, and I thanked him.
And so, your involvement in this is . . . ?

342 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:21:13pm

re: #340 cliffster

Haha, maybe so. Taken objectively, one reading that might connect the dots, perhaps inaccurately, and think that you were on one particular side of that question.

I asked a question. To this point no one has even attempted an answer. How about giving it a shot?

343 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:21:26pm

re: #338 DistantThunder

Not the ID perpetrators, but it helps those of us who need to be on our guard against them. I had to choose a 7th grade science book for my homeschooled son - and I was very wary about my choices due to these discussions.

Yes, and that's where these topics are helpful, to alert us so that little by little, we can individually make an impact.

344 Syrah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:21:47pm

re: #339 JCM

Evening gang!

What the drinking word tonight?

Mezcal is the word.

345 Cicero05  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:21:55pm

re: #337 Salamantis

Empirically untrue is empirically untrue. The literal reading of Genesis has been proven to be empirically untrue by means of both DNA and radiometric dating. Facts are stubborn things, not to be denied by asinine ad hominems.

"Shut up, he explained."

346 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:22:09pm

re: #331 Raydog

I could not care less. Ugh.

Sure you could. You took the time to post, so you do care some. Try to care less.

347 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:22:31pm

re: #344 Syrah

Mezcal is the word.

I'm in a hurry....
Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal

Hic!

348 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:22:40pm

re: #334 Jimmah

Oh, my.

Just that. Oh, my.

(I bet you think your avatar is really neat.)

349 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:22:43pm

re: #294 musicman

Well now I just have to jump in. I believe in a God who could of done it all in six billion years, six million years, six thousand years, six hundred years, six years, six weeks, six days, six minutes or even in six seconds. The God I believe has no limits. When man tries to "out think" God is when man gets into trouble. After all I am a minister and that Bible I carry around means a whole lot to me. To me it is not a book of fairy tales. I share it with others. and let them make their own decisions.

The Word of God had it scientifically right when in Leviticus 17:11 said that the life of a creature was in the blood.

I still love this site.

The deity in which you seem to believe appears to resemble the Islamic Allah more than it does the Christian God; unconstrained by any and all logic and/or evidence. This is precisely the God-conception that Pope Benedict was criticizing in his Regensburg speech.

350 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:23:20pm

re: #297 MandyManners

I not only know that my 6 is covered but, I'm doing my best to cover others' sixes.

I ain't kickin' back 'spectin' others to do for me.

You go girl ... it takes a village .. heh.

351 Syrah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:23:21pm

re: #344 Syrah

Mezcal is the word.

Not such a good word for a drinking word. But it is good to drink.

Lets make "the" the drinking word for the night.

Anyone second the motion?

352 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:24:36pm

re: #347 JCM

I'm in a hurry....
Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal

Hic!

OK, that does it for me. Just the thought of Mezcal is making my eyelids droop, and I don't even drink.

Good night, Lizards.

God keep.

cheers

eon

353 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:24:38pm

My drinking word (water) is "disqualified" as in:

Gov. Sarah Palin has said that Obama's statements have disqualified him to be commander in chief.

Alleluia - truth is spoken.

354 mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:25:29pm

re: #323 Salamantis

I believe that you said that you are Roman Catholic; your own church does not take the Genesis creation myth literally.

True. But while we don't take the story literally, we do believe the Book of Genesis conveys basic truths about creation and the most important part of that is God created Heaven and Earth. All that is seen and unseen.

As St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out, Faith and reason are both sources of authority upon which beliefs can rest.

355 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:25:44pm

re: #342 Wishing

I asked a question. To this point no one has even attempted an answer. How about giving it a shot?

Hmm, my answer is, suit yourself, you believe whatever you want to believe, no skin off my neck. When I responded, I was just expressing sadness that you think you might get booted for it. I don't think people get booted from here for their opinions, as long as they're being polite. Killian, I'll go back and read through what you're talking about.

356 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:25:57pm

re: #321 Killian Bundy

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

Who said he's trying to discourage them?

357 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:26:45pm

re: #355 cliffster

Hmm, my answer is, suit yourself, you believe whatever you want to believe, no skin off my neck. When I responded, I was just expressing sadness that you think you might get booted for it. I don't think people get booted from here for their opinions, as long as they're being polite. Killian, I'll go back and read through what you're talking about.

Again, Cliff, I stated NO opinion. I asked a question, one that has apparently stumped the stars.

358 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:10pm

re: #350 Bobibutu

You go girl ... it takes a village .. heh.

The sense of entitlement is growing at a geometric rate.

359 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:16pm

re: #353 DistantThunder

My drinking word (water) is "disqualified" as in:

Gov. Sarah Palin has said that Obama's statements have disqualified him to be commander in chief.

Alleluia - truth is spoken.

When I read in the Lame Stream Media that the debate was a tied, I knew Palin mopped the floor.

I heard parts, the first question on the loan crises I thought she missed an opportunity to nail (D) hides to the barn door.

360 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:20pm

re: #327 Killian Bundy

/and yet you won't link to your own essays, let the people decide

Decide about what, exactly?

You just wish to endeavor to use cherry-picked quotes from my essays in an attempt to discredit me via ridicule, because you are an execrable anus.

361 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:40pm

re: #326 Charles

Other people may be interested in learning about these subjects, even though you prefer to remain ignorant.

Okay, I'll admit, fringe Christians want to push the Wedge agenda. It's a nonstarter in Federal courts.

/and my point is that you have no other choice, that I'm aware of, but to trust in the legal process

362 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:58pm

Dayum, i LOVE a good question!

363 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:28:40pm

Salamantis - here's a question for you. Your downdinging seems obsessive. For example, you downdinged me when I pointed out that you had not made any point other than saying, "because I say so". Because it was true. I asked about a subject, and you responded with "that is false". "That is false" doesn't prove anything, as I'm sure beyond any shadow of a doubt you can understand.

364 musicman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:29:12pm

re: #349 Salamantis

The deity in which you seem to believe appears to resemble the Islamic Allah more than it does the Christian God; unconstrained by any and all logic and/or evidence. This is precisely the God-conception that Pope Benedict was criticizing in his Regensburg speech.

All I am saying is that I will not put God in a box now would I ever think He is limited in what He can do. I have believed this long before I even heard the word Islam, Allah, or knew what a pope was. I love my life, I love my work, does that make me a bad person? And for clarification, I am Southern Baptist.

365 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:29:17pm

re: #362 Wishing

Dayum, i LOVE a good question!

Why?
/ ;-)

366 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:29:47pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

No, it does not, neither do I. Nor do I support DI or creationism, and I have made that crystal clear over a number of months.

Cicero has posted a clarification, and I thanked him.
And so, your involvement in this is . . . ?

To ensure that you did not take mistaken umbrage at something that had not been said.

367 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:30:24pm

re: #365 JCM

Why?
/ ;-)

Because a properly framed question leads one to the answer.

368 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:30:55pm

re: #363 cliffster

Salamantis - here's a question for you. Your downdinging seems obsessive. For example, you downdinged me when I pointed out that you had not made any point other than saying, "because I say so". Because it was true. I asked about a subject, and you responded with "that is false". "That is false" doesn't prove anything, as I'm sure beyond any shadow of a doubt you can understand.

Wrong. I always give a reason. And I also downding posts that I think deserve it, as is the prerogative of everyone on this list.

369 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:31:05pm

re: #361 Killian Bundy

Okay, I'll admit, fringe Christians want to push the Wedge agenda. It's a nonstarter in Federal courts.

/and my point is that you have no other choice, that I'm aware of, but to trust in the legal process


No. I do have another choice, and that's to write about my opinions on this subject, and back up those opinions with facts.

Despite your non-stop attempts to portray it as wasted effort, which are becoming more and more obvious, and more and more tedious. And which lead me to seriously question your motivations.

370 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:31:36pm

re: #366 Salamantis

To ensure that you did not take mistaken umbrage at something that had not been said.

Well, thank you for your consideration, I did not take umbrage, I simply in my post disagreed that religious beliefs were "fairy tales"
Cicero posted several clarifications, and so I'm fine.
Your consideration for my tender feelings is appreciated.

371 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:32:57pm

And when Obama gets his Supreme Court picks . . .

/religion will be politically dead and there will be much rejoicing

372 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:33:33pm

re: #358 MandyManners

The sense of entitlement is growing at a geometric rate.

and that will be our downfall from within - sh*ts covered from with-ought.

It's up to us.

373 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:33:49pm

re: #233 taxfreekiller

Don Bosco as he was dying said his last words to those around him,

"See you in paradise".

374 musicman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:33:49pm

I also would say that I do not want creationism taught in public schools. It should be left to churches and or parents to teach their children.

375 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:34:09pm

Can we change the subject now?

Look, ya'll, I'm fixin' to get RICH!
Look at this great offer I just got in my e-mail:

Attention:

My name is Mr. Zinfy Lucas Mbeki I am South African man by birth and
resident in Spain.
I am a sale and account manager in a financial consultancy firm here Madrid . My Company is mandated to source for reliable investors in the World over to invest available funds in profitable business ventures.

This is why I am making this urgent contact with you and you associates, some prominent individuals in Marbella the Andalusia region of Spain made these funds available to my firm and the available fund is in US dollars amounting to millions, because of the heat they are now facing from the law for the unauthorized sales of states properties, the city mayor and deputy mayor amid allegations of money laundering is now under house arrest, for property
development offences, including building on land protected from development, manipulation of public tenders, and the acceptance of bribes as well as schemes to alter the price of municipal services.

In this sleaze scandal, which hit the southern Spanish resort city Marbella in spring 2006,and they know their chances of not going to jail is slim they have asked my firm to act swiftly on their behalf in other for them not to lose out completely and save something for their family members.Depending on your experience and proposal you will forward to us, we Will determine a suitable amount to remit to you to kick off the business you intend to invest in. You will manage this business without interference for a period of three years, after which, the profit on investment will be shared after taxation. The investment areas are not limited and may include new businesses or injection of funds into an existing firm that, of course, is profit oriented, bearing in mind that you are not authorized to invest in public Companies or Government agencies.

You can incorporate a firm fully owned by you based on the laws of your Country or
invest this money in a private Company as a shareholder. You can equally trade stock or
export and import goods as may be profitable. Fresh funds may also be invested to enlarge the business if the prospects are good.

All these are without any liability to you as this is a risk that the fund owners are ready to take; you will be required to make urgent contactWith us to finalize arrangements
on how to move the agreed funds into a Fresh account you will open with the bank where
I have lodged the funds and sign related documents that will authorize you to manage
this money on our behalf. A draft agreement will be forwarded to you to enable usFine-tune
all grey areas and ensure a smooth take off.

Please, reply to this mail and I will forward more information to you all We need is to ascertain your credibility, resourcefulness and experience.


Salamantis - here's a question for you. Your downdinging seems obsessive. For example, you downdinged me when I pointed out that you had not made any point other than saying, "because I say so". Because it was true. I asked about a subject, and you responded with "that is false". "That is false" doesn't prove anything, as I'm sure beyond any shadow of a doubt you can understand.
376 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:35:04pm

re: #354 mich-again

True. But while we don't take the story literally, we do believe the Book of Genesis conveys basic truths about creation and the most important part of that is God created Heaven and Earth. All that is seen and unseen.

As St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out, Faith and reason are both sources of authority upon which beliefs can rest.

The belief to which you are referring does not require a rejection of empirical science; the belief in the literal truth of the Book of Genesis DOES. As the Catholic Church itself acknowledged when endorsing evolution as sound, valid and solid science, and the Book of Genesis as metaphor.

377 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:35:28pm

re: #368 Salamantis

Wrong. I always give a reason. And I also downding posts that I think deserve it, as is the prerogative of everyone on this list.

"It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian."

That is offering no evidence. I've been reading your posts for a little while now and you're quite meticulous about what is backed up by evidence, and what is not. And that statement was not, and you know it. I called you out on it, and you downdinged me. Which I don't care about, of course, knock yourself out. But, perhaps the obsessive downdinging, even of reasonable posts, reveals something about how you feel about having your statements questioned in any way.

378 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:36:15pm

re: #367 Wishing

Because a properly framed question leads one to the answer.

I have toddlers at home....
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?

379 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:36:52pm

re: #361 Killian Bundy

...and my point is that you have no other choice, that I'm aware of... but to trust in the legal process

An informed, educated populace can effect change by speaking up en masse and compelling politicians and judges to take an issue seriously.

We aren't limited to being passive. Knowledge truly is power.

380 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:37:21pm

Anyway, for light there is no time, time stops at light speed, how big or old is the universe from the viewpoint of light, a real thing?

Creation is amazing and I am amazed that people could argue in such small ways about it.

Thank you for posting on this subject Charles.

381 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:37:28pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout

Why that two timing little weasel, he promised me that deal!

382 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:38:04pm

re: #378 JCM

answer: Because you are a good person.

383 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:39:14pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout

Good ole Zinfy always comes through.

384 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:39:18pm

I guess i will just save my question and ask it again at a later date...I am sure the discussion will resurface.
(maybe I wont have to ask it again)

385 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:39:51pm

re: #378 JCM

I have toddlers at home....
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?

Grist for the mill ...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

386 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:40:26pm

re: #384 Wishing

Oh, for Pete's sake.

I'll answer your brilliant question.

Our friends here on LGF who are not here with us tonight, but are rather honoring the Sabbath: Are u suggesting that they have been duped into believing in the God of the Sabbath?

No.

387 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:41:17pm

re: #377 cliffster

"It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian."

That is offering no evidence. I've been reading your posts for a little while now and you're quite meticulous about what is backed up by evidence, and what is not. And that statement was not, and you know it. I called you out on it, and you downdinged me. Which I don't care about, of course, knock yourself out. But, perhaps the obsessive downdinging, even of reasonable posts, reveals something about how you feel about having your statements questioned in any way.

You apparently did not understand the force of my sentence. If all genes existed in all genomes since the beginning of terrestrial life, then all animals would also have had to appear at all times when they could have lived in an existing ecology (since that would have been the environmental cue for their genes to express). But they demonstrably have not. E.g., no rabbit fossils have been found in PreCambrian strata, even though they could have eaten existing plants and survived in the ambient temperature range.

388 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:41:32pm

re: #369 Charles

No. I do have another choice, and that's to write about my opinions on this subject, and back up those opinions with facts.

Despite your non-stop attempts to portray it as wasted effort, which are becoming more and more obvious, and more and more tedious. And which lead me to seriously question your motivations.

It's your blog and I'm honored to comment here.

/how about we wait and see whether it roots in Louisiana?

389 musicman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:03pm

re: #380 Ojoe

Anyway, for light there is no time, time stops at light speed, how big or old is the universe from the viewpoint of light, a real thing?

Creation is amazing and I am amazed that people could argue in such small ways about it.

Thank you for posting on this subject Charles.

Amen, especially after seeing Bryce Canyon and Zion National park last Monday! Spectacular! Could of been created in one day or over millions of years. My pictures do not do justice to what could be seen in person.

390 mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:06pm

re: #376 Salamantis

I have two passions for volunteering. One is teaching in a science program for elementary school kids in Detroit public schools (all African American kids). The other is teaching Religious formation to 8th graders at my Parish (all white suburbanite kids). I wish I could bring the two groups together because the kids are more alike than they are different and I think it would be good for them to get to know each other better rather than rely on public perceptions.

Never would I bring Religion into the science class. Not in a million years. But I do like to talk about evolution in the Formation class. You might be surprised how many kids there never learned the Church does not believe Genesis is not the story of creation. Heck, I tell the kids to educate their parents.

391 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:08pm

Good night, folks.

Keep fighting the good fight, Charles.

392 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:36pm

re: #386 Charles
Well excellent, Charles, because that would be a very untenable position to take!

393 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:37pm

re: #379 Josephine

An informed, educated populace can effect change by speaking up en masse and compelling politicians and judges to take an issue seriously.

We aren't limited to being passive. Knowledge truly is power.

/say hello to Obama

394 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:44pm

re: #333 sattv4u2

actually, it was a declarative statement. Go back to the beggining of this thread and see if you don;'t think that Killian Bundy and I were for a time on the precipice of BOOTLAND

I don't know, seems like you might be being a bit jumpy. There were lots of posts disagreeing with you, but I didn't see anything ominous. Maybe I'm wrong.

395 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:43:28pm

re: #387 Salamantis

You apparently did not understand the force of my sentence. If all genes existed in all genomes since the beginning of terrestrial life, then all animals would also have had to appear at all times when they could have lived in an existing ecology (since that would have been the environmental cue for their genes to express). But they demonstrably have not. E.g., no rabbit fossils have been found in PreCambrian strata, even though they could have eaten existing plants and survived in the ambient temperature range.

Right. You just now explained your position and provided evidence. Before, you just made a statement and backed it up with nothing. See the dif