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Biologist Reviews 'Intelligent Design' Creationist Textbook

Science | Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 5:31:52 pm PDT

Here’s a terrific, detailed review of one of the textbooks created by the Discovery Institute in order to sneak their “intelligent design” creationism into American science classrooms. John Timmer precisely identifies the slippery tactics of this dishonest organization: A biologist reviews an evolution textbook from the ID camp.

The Discovery Institute, as indicated by its wedge document, wishes to eliminate science’s focus on natural causes. The group views this focus as the source of society’s increasing materialism, which makes it anathema in the belief system of Discovery’s members. Stephen C. Meyer, the lead author of Explore Evolution, heads the Discovery Institute and is mentioned by name in the wedge document, as is coauthor Paul Nelson.

Evolution has been singled out for special ire by Discovery, as it provides an explanation for the origin of humanity based solely on natural processes. Although the ID movement has not developed a research program or even proposed a scientific formulation of its ideas, it has gotten a surprising amount of traction with its attack on the science of evolution. Tapping into a rich vein of American thought that dates back roughly a century, the group’s members have used popular books and appearances in the press to argue that the scientific theory of evolution is on the verge of abandonment, having been pushed to its most recent “inevitable” collapse by new molecular evidence.

More significantly, however, Discovery Institute fellows have been attempting to have their arguments against evolution incorporated into the US public school system. They testified in favor of education standards in Ohio and Kansas that targeted evolution for special criticism—Kansas’ standards went even further and eliminated reference to science’s search for natural causes. In the wake of the Dover case, however, both states have reversed these policies, leaving Discovery without a foot in the door of the US education system.

EE appears to be part of a strategy to change that. In June, Louisiana became the first state to enact a law specifically enabling the use of supplemental materials for the critical evaluation of evolution; similar legislation has been introduced in several other states. EE appears to have been intelligently designed to be the sort of supplemental text that’s appropriate under the Louisiana legislation, and so it’s likely to be making an appearance in classrooms there. But EE may appear in other states, as the approval process for supplementary material is often far less strict than that governing textbooks.

Read the whole thing. Timmer’s review completely tears this so-called textbook to shreds.

This is the kind of craziness promoted by the Discovery Institute:

Another PhD the authors found is Christian Schwabe, who apparently has established a career studying a protein called reflexin, along with its relatives. But every couple of years he publishes a paper in which he argues in favor of his belief that the genomes of all modern and extinct species originated during the formation of life billions of years ago. According to Schwabe, those genomes have continued to exist, hidden underground as stem cell-like entities. Whenever these cells sense a favorable environment above ground, they head for the surface and self-organize into a fully formed, multicellular animal. No, I am not making this up.

This isn’t simply evidence-free (although it is); it’s borderline deranged. And yet, in the hands of Discovery’s authors, it becomes a serious scientific controversy about the existence of the tree of life. And, if there’s any controversy, then students should apparently think twice before accepting that science actually knows anything about the evolution of life on earth.

“Borderline deranged.” Couldn’t have said it better myself.

And guess who’s taking another bash at me? Sacking Little Green Footballs’ Outrageous Claim That ‘Discovery Institute Is in League With Islamist Creationists’.

Earlier this year, the popular blog Little Green Footballs (LGF) made an outrageous attempt to link Discovery Institute to the Muslim creationist Harun Yahya (a.k.a. Adnan Oktar). Their post claimed, “Discovery Institute is in league with Islamist creationists, a fact that is indisputably true,” specifically referring to Yahya / Oktar.

A perfect example of the lies and distortions in which this organization trades. I neither said nor implied that the Discovery Institute collaborates with Harun Yahya (although one of their Turkish associates, Mustafa Aykol, is a former volunteer for Harun Yahya), and to say that I was “specifically referring” to him is simply a lie.

Read it for yourself; here’s the post to which DI shill Casey Luskin is referring, with an audio clip featuring one of the Discovery Institute’s Senior Fellows, David Berlinski, boasting about their collaboration with Islamic creationists: When Disco Dudes Attack.

And yes, it is indisputably true that the Discovery Institute is collaborating with Turkish creationists. Clearly, that little “discovery” of mine has hit a very sensitive nerve at the Dishonesty Institute.

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1 noshariaincanada  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:34:08pm

We will tolerate no lies or distortions!

2 rightside  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:34:47pm

Alright! An intelligent design thread!

3 pingjockey  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:38:40pm

Remember, DO NOT TELL CHARLES WHAT TO POST! You mush mellon brains!

4 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:38:48pm

POINT OF ORDER!

If the DI writes a "textbook" and nobody (read public school system) uses it, does it make a sound? (or does it matter?)

5 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:39:51pm

re: #4 sattv4u2

POINT OF ORDER!

If the DI writes a "textbook" and nobody (read public school system) uses it, does it make a sound? (or does it matter?)

You haven't even read the article, or you wouldn't be asking this.

6 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:39:56pm
textbooks created by the Discovery Institute

Okay, what school districts have adopted them?

/just askin'

7 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:41:25pm

re: #6 Killian Bundy

Okay, what school districts have adopted them?

/just askin'

So let's just wait until they do before saying anything about it? I don't think so.

8 HelloDare  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:42:30pm

The arguments supporting intelligent design are beyond stupid.

9 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:43:08pm

re: #5 Charles

You haven't even read the article, or you wouldn't be asking this.

reading the article or not, my question still stands (and BTW, i'm reading it as we discuss).
Killian is asking the same thing in his #6. It's like the nut standing on a New York street corner proclaiming the End of The World. Do you think ANYONE is paying attntion to him, save for a tourist who has never seen such a spectacle before? And even that tourist pays no heed to the message!

10 Dar ul Harb  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:46:00pm

Who but the ID folks would title their textbook "Explore Evolution"?

11 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:46:40pm

re: #9 sattv4u2

reading the article or not, my question still stands (and BTW, i'm reading it as we discuss).
Killian is asking the same thing in his #6. It's like the nut standing on a New York street corner proclaiming the End of The World. Do you think ANYONE is paying attntion to him, save for a tourist who has never seen such a spectacle before? And even that tourist pays no heed to the message!

You are simply wrong. This agenda is being pushed hard, all over the country. Attempting to brush it off is ridiculous. And dangerous.

12 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:47:31pm

re: #9 sattv4u2

reading the article or not, my question still stands (and BTW, i'm reading it as we discuss).
Killian is asking the same thing in his #6. It's like the nut standing on a New York street corner proclaiming the End of The World. Do you think ANYONE is paying attntion to him, save for a tourist who has never seen such a spectacle before? And even that tourist pays no heed to the message!


Gov Jindal would be one of those I believe. And he does have some power over the textbooks.

13 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:48:47pm

Explore Evolution. Nice "Orwellian" name. Makes it sounds like there is actual exploring going on at the Discovery Institute.

14 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:48:54pm

Words cannot express my contempt for these people

15 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:49:13pm

I'm reminded of the people who say that jihadis are just a tiny minority, and we can just ignore them.

16 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:49:27pm

re: #7 Charles

So let's just wait until they do before saying anything about it? I don't think so.

I'm pretty sure my position's clear.

/it's not going to fly once it hits the courts and there's not really much you can do about it preemptively

17 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:50:43pm

re: #11 Charles

You are simply wrong. This agenda is being pushed hard, all over the country. Attempting to brush it off is ridiculous.

Okay, lets play it your way. Pushing as hard as they are, is there a school system that you're aware of that has adopted the text? Is there a system that has it under serious consideration? I'm not being snarky or argumentative! I really want to know. If there IS a system that is leaning that way, I will lead the charge (both realistically and financially) to keep it out of the public schools, regardless of what my personal beleif is! I do NOT want it taught in PUBLIC school. I can't be more blunt.

18 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:50:48pm

re: #16 Killian Bundy

I'm pretty sure my position's clear.

/it's not going to fly once it hits the courts and there's not really much you can do about it preemptively

Your position is clear, and it's wrong-headed.

19 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:51:36pm
Whenever these cells sense a favorable environment above ground, they head for the surface and self-organize into a fully formed, multicellular animal.

A PhD came up with this? Was that a PhD in science or science fiction?

20 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:52:27pm

re: #17 sattv4u2

Okay, lets play it your way. Pushing as hard as they are, is there a school system that you're aware of that has adopted the text? Is there a system that has it under serious consideration? I'm not being snarky or argumentative! I really want to know. If there IS a system that is leaning that way, I will lead the charge (both realistically and financially) to keep it out of the public schools, regardless of what my personal beleif is! I do NOT want it taught in PUBLIC school. I can't be more blunt.

Educate yourself. I've been posting article after article on this subject, because there ARE states that are being influenced by these people. If you can't be bothered to read those articles, your opinions aren't worth much.

21 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:52:30pm

Some reading here may not go through the entire article, but you shoudn't miss this part of John Timmer's summation:

"As I was reading the text, I was repeatedly reminded of the testimony of Berkeley Professor Kevin Padian, who described the statement required by the Dover, PA school board as follows:

'I think it makes people stupid. I think essentially it makes them ignorant. It confuses them unnecessarily about things that are well understood in science, about which there is no controversy, about ideas that have existed since the 1700's, about a broad body of scientific knowledge that's been developed over centuries by people with religious backgrounds and all walks of life, from all countries and faiths, which everyone can understand.'

22 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:52:31pm

re: #12 Outrider

Gov Jindal would be one of those I believe. And he does have some power over the textbooks.

Tha the does. Do you have any evidence that he wants to institute the theory of ID in the LA public schools (and not just because he is a beleiver)

23 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:53:25pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

A PhD came up with this? Was that a PhD in science or science fiction?

It's actually cribbed from the plot of a Dean Koontz thriller, "Phantoms" IIRC.

24 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:53:41pm

re: #20 Charles

Educate yourself. I've been posting article after article on this subject, because there ARE states that are being influenced by these people. If you can't be bothered to read those articles, your opinions aren't worth much.

I do daily, thank you
I'll take that as a NO, there are NO public schools that use the text

25 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:54:59pm

re: #19 Sharmuta

A PhD came up with this? Was that a PhD in science or science fiction?

Sounds like one of those crackpot theories. Shows how the DI is willing to embrace any pseudoscience that forwards its agenda no matter how ludicrous. Reminds me of that commenter a while back that tried to show evolution has some flaws in it by pointing to the works of Velikovsky.

26 Oingo Boingo[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:55:05pm
27 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:55:08pm

re: #23 Tarkloon

It's actually cribbed from the plot of a Dean Koontz thriller, "Phantoms" IIRC.

Got it from some Lovecraft Cthulhu type creatures as well, Ubbo-sathla, Abhoth, shoggoths, etc

28 LEGION  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:55:45pm

re: #15 Charles

I'm reminded of the people who say that jihadis are just a tiny minority, and we can just ignore them.

Like Obama said Iran is just a small country and we don't need to worry about it. Ohhhhkayyy- so you want to be our Commander in Chief. Not!

29 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:58:01pm

re: #23 Tarkloon

It's actually cribbed from the plot of a Dean Koontz thriller, "Phantoms" IIRC.

I could never get into Koontz, though I've tried numerous times

30 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:58:02pm

re: #22 sattv4u2

Tha the does. Do you have any evidence that he wants to institute the theory of ID in the LA public schools (and not just because he is a beleiver)

This is why I say your opinions aren't worth much. You don't even know the facts.

Jindal has explicitly supported the teaching of creationism in science classes, on several occasions, and I've posted links. The state of Louisiana passed a bill that will specifically allow textbooks like the one that is the subject of this article.

31 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:58:23pm

There are probably hundreds of thousands of copies of this book in print right now, and it's probably in a lot of Sunday Schools. Christian parents need to know that the book is full of outright fallacies, it's not just about public schools for those who are saying it is.

32 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:58:24pm

re: #18 Charles

Your position is clear, and it's wrong-headed.

What do you propose to do before they violate the law?

/the people have a right to be insane in this country until they cross the line

33 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:59:09pm

re: #32 Killian Bundy

What do you propose to do before they violate the law?

/the people have a right to be insane in this country until they cross the line

I propose to continue posting about this subject, no matter how much you try to discourage it.

34 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 5:59:55pm

"There are two obvious tactical reasons for the book's omission of any explicit conclusions about the "debate." The first reason is simply that the authors know precisely the sort of conclusions they'd like everyone to reach: some variation of the creationism that has been deemed legally intolerable by the courts. But they're also undoubtedly aware of survey results that indicate that well over 10 percent of US teachers "teach creationism as a 'valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species."
Here's the survey:
[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

35 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:00:08pm

re: #11 Charles

You are simply wrong. This agenda is being pushed hard, all over the country. Attempting to brush it off is ridiculous. And dangerous.

Just like the multiculturalists who "responded" to 9/11 by introducing "live as a Muslim days" and "jihad games" in schools in California- "So our children will better understand why they are angry at us" (and of course, be inculcated with the idea of yet another non-Western culture being soooo superior to us insensitive, linear-thinking, non-mystical descendants of Dead White Males).

They, and the "ID" crowd, are opposite sides of the same tarnished coin.

Should there be discussions of "ID" in school? Yes, but not in science classes. Such subject matter properly belongs in a college-prep or junior college course on philosophy. Alongside the Agnostics, the Jains, and other cult-like beliefs.

Personally, I put the "IDiots" about even with the UFO contactee cults, but maybe that's just me.

Oh, news flash to Schwabe; A genome is not a cell. Nor is it motile.

/Unlike him, I got an A in high-school Biology

cheers

eon

36 Karridine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:01:28pm

Bright blue after-the-deluge Bangkok Saturday morning and I'd LOVE to stay and defend rational thought against the corrupting worms of Intelligent Desire, but work calls for a few hours.

Man the barricades (and ladies, barricade the men!) and we'll meet in a few hours hence... :D

37 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:01:29pm

re: #30 Charles

I understand Jindal is an ID advocate. My question was does he (or any) district utilize the DI text.

REPEAT,,,
If there IS a system that is leaning that way, I will lead the charge (both realistically and financially) to keep it out of the public schools, regardless of what my personal beleif is! I do NOT want it taught in PUBLIC school. I can't be more blunt.

38 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:02:43pm

re: #8 HelloDare

The arguments supporting intelligent design are beyond stupid.

Well call me stupid then...i really dont give a rip =)

39 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:03:04pm

re: #35 eon
Oh, news flash to Schwabe; A genome is not a cell. Nor is it motile.

/Unlike him, I got an A in high-school Biology

Ah, but he stuck around in college and eventually got a book deal pedaling this crap around.

I wonder how much he got in government grants to pursue this tripe.

40 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:04:10pm
In June, Louisiana became the first state to enact a law specifically enabling the use of supplemental materials for the critical evaluation of evolution; similar legislation has been introduced in several other states. EE appears to have been intelligently designed to be the sort of supplemental text that's appropriate under the Louisiana legislation, and so it's likely to be making an appearance in classrooms there. But EE may appear in other states, as the approval process for supplementary material is often far less strict than that governing textbooks.

So it's not meant to be a text book, it's a supplemental to be used to skirt the Constitution, confuse children, enrich the DI and cost taxpayers. Lovely.

41 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:04:29pm

From the survey:
"Of the 25% of teachers who devoted time to creationism or intelligent design, nearly half agreed or strongly agreed that they teach creationism as a “valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species.” Nearly the same number agreed or strongly agreed that when they teach creationism or intelligent design they emphasize that “many reputable scientists view these as valid alternatives to Darwinian Theory”

[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

42 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:05:40pm

Regarding whether this book does anything or not: Michael Behe wrote that horrible book Darwin's Black Box, and millions of people have bought every word and are convinced evolution is just some anti-religious nonsense. NRO called that book one of the most influential non-fiction books of the 20th century. These books cause real danger. They fool the gullible and ignorant, miseducate thousands, and put money in the pockets of charlatans. For this reason it's important to be vigilant and proactive against these people because they do have real influence and cause real problems.

43 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:05:47pm

re: #40 Sharmuta

So it's not meant to be a text book, it's a supplemental to be used to skirt the Constitution, confuse children, enrich the DI and cost taxpayers. Lovely.

What I'd like to know is, where are all the "separation of church and state" people in this? Are they even aware of this?

/or did I miss a memo somewhere along the line?

cheers

eon

44 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:08:29pm

re: #43 eon

What I'd like to know is, where are all the "separation of church and state" people in this? Are they even aware of this?

/or did I miss a memo somewhere along the line?

cheers

eon

Ah, but you see, they're not saying its a religious arguement out in the open. They're attacking the theories. Nevermind their theory has no scientific backing and falls apart under even the most casual glance.

Its why they can work with the Islamists. Anything to weaken the existing power base.

45 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:08:30pm

re: #22 sattv4u2

Tha the does. Do you have any evidence that he wants to institute the theory of ID in the LA public schools (and not just because he is a beleiver)

For a start?

A Catholic convert who grew up in a Hindu household, Jindal has made his name by aligning himself with the cultural conservative wing of the Republican Party, fiercely opposing stem cell research and abortion while favoring the teaching of Intelligent Design in public schools.

BATON ROUGE, Louisiana, June 27, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Louisiana public school teachers can now educate their students about the theory of intelligent design and scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolutionary theory thanks to a new law signed this week by Louisiana Gov. Bobby Jindal. The Louisiana Science Education Act now allows teachers to supplement the state's curricula with additional scientific materials, but groups opposed to any debate over the "origin of the species" have warned that the new law will become the origin of the lawsuits if they believe it facilitates religion.

46 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:08:55pm

re: #30 Charles

This is why I say your opinions aren't worth much. You don't even know the facts.

Jindal has explicitly supported the teaching of creationism in science classes, on several occasions, and I've posted links. The state of Louisiana passed a bill that will specifically allow textbooks like the one that is the subject of this article.

And we're two months into the school yesr. Where's the promised lawsuit?

/it only took a one paragraph statement read in class to nail ID to the floorboards in Pennsylvania

47 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:09:11pm

Survey methodology:
"The survey permits a statistically valid and current portrait of US science teachers that complements US and international surveys of the general public on evolution and scientific literacy [2,24] and on evolution in the classroom [3,25]. Between March 5 and May 1, 2007, 939 teachers participated in the study, either by mail or by completing an identical questionnaire online. Our overall response rate of 48% yielded a sample that may be generalized to the population of all public school teachers who taught a high school–level biology course in the 2006–2007 academic year, with all percentage estimates reported in this essay's tables and figures having a margin of error of no more than 3.2% at the 95% confidence level."
[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

Note that the sample is not skewed by sampling private schools, as has been suggested in past discussions.

48 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:10:31pm

re: #43 eon

What I'd like to know is, where are all the "separation of church and state" people in this? Are they even aware of this?

/or did I miss a memo somewhere along the line?

cheers

eon

Some might not be aware, which is why it's important that Charles continues to post about this subject.

Others who are aware seem to think it's not a big deal and think Charles should focus on something else, I guess.

49 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:10:31pm

re: #41 jaunte

From the survey:
"Of the 25% of teachers who devoted time to creationism or intelligent design, nearly half agreed or strongly agreed that they teach creationism as a “valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species.” Nearly the same number agreed or strongly agreed that when they teach creationism or intelligent design they emphasize that “many reputable scientists view these as valid alternatives to Darwinian Theory”

[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

This should be a wake-up call for those who continue to insist that this subject is unimportant. The United States has slipped to an appallingly low level in science education, and one big reason is the widespread support for Dark Ages beliefs like creationism -- even among science teachers.

50 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:11:05pm

re: #33 Charles

I propose to continue posting about this subject, no matter how much you try to discourage it.

/I've never asked you not to, we just have differing opinions about the severity of the threat

51 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:12:28pm

re: #48 Sharmuta

Some might not be aware, which is why it's important that Charles continues to post about this subject.

Others who are aware seem to think it's not a big deal and think Charles should focus on something else, I guess.

I've noticed that it doesn't matter how much I post on other subjects. Every time there's a thread on the intelligent design hoax, the same people pop up and tell me I'm wasting my time, they're bored, who cares, etc.

52 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:13:31pm

"One time at ID camp...."

53 pingjockey  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:14:36pm

re: #51 Charles
Tough shit. Let 'em read something else. This creeping of nonscience into science is not a joke.

54 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:15:08pm

re: #42 Basho

Here's the link to NRO I mentioned:

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Here's a little comment they left after Behe's book was listed:

Gilder: "Overthrows Darwin at the end of the 20th century in the same way that quantum theory overthrew Newton at the beginning."

Well, there you have it. Explore Evolution may be on their 21st century list if people just ignore it.

55 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:15:52pm

If you are bored by the ID threads - that's proof that YOU are not the intended audience. Get it?

56 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:16:24pm

re: #48 Sharmuta

Some might not be aware, which is why it's important that Charles continues to post about this subject.

Others who are aware seem to think it's not a big deal and think Charles should focus on something else, I guess.

Not me. I was always taught two things;

1. In warfare, always honor a threat.

2. The best diversion is a threat the enemy is forced to honor.

("Threat"- enemy force, present, apparent, or "in being")
("Honor"- respond to and/or orient elements to guard against)

cheers

eon

57 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:16:30pm

re: #17 sattv4u2

Okay, lets play it your way. Pushing as hard as they are, is there a school system that you're aware of that has adopted the text? Is there a system that has it under serious consideration? I'm not being snarky or argumentative! I really want to know. If there IS a system that is leaning that way, I will lead the charge (both realistically and financially) to keep it out of the public schools, regardless of what my personal beleif is! I do NOT want it taught in PUBLIC school. I can't be more blunt.

And if Charles wasn't diligent about bringing things like this to your attention, how, may I ask, would you even know if it were being done in your school district? Do you make a practice of attending all the meetings at which textbooks are chosen?

Intelligent Design is merely one of the many demons of irrationality against which we must struggle. Consider these posts as disseminating intelligence about the enemy.

58 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:17:20pm

re: #57 Alberta Oil Peon

Hey, well put!

59 pingjockey  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:06pm

WAAAAAAAAAY OT Tampa Bay 6 WSox 2

60 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:08pm

re: #45 Outrider

Louisiana public school teachers can now educate their students about the theory of intelligent design and scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolutionary theory

Is there a sanctioned textbook? (that IS the subject of this thread, btw) In that the teacher CAN (not MUST ,,, not HAS TOO) is also telling

Again, please see my #37, highlighted portions in particular

61 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:45pm

re: #60 sattv4u2

Louisiana public school teachers can now educate their students about the theory of intelligent design and scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolutionary theory

Is there a sanctioned textbook? (that IS the subject of this thread, btw) In that the teacher CAN (not MUST ,,, not HAS TOO) is also telling

Again, please see my #37, highlighted portions in particular

Are you a creationist?

62 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:46pm

re: #46 Killian Bundy

And we're two months into the school yesr. Where's the promised lawsuit?

/it only took a one paragraph statement read in class to nail ID to the floorboards in Pennsylvania

You have to have someone with standing to file, and to have someone with standing you have to have a parent who knows enough to flush out this nonsense, as well as one who has enough spine to confront it. It could take a while to hit that combo.

63 doriangrey  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:18:51pm

re: #51 Charles

I've noticed that it doesn't matter how much I post on other subjects. Every time there's a thread on the intelligent design hoax, the same people pop up and tell me I'm wasting my time, they're bored, who cares, etc.

Charles, you can always invite them to go else where. If they don't like the subject of one of the articles (or even a hundred) you post then they should read another or shut the hell up.

64 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:19:49pm

I had a mini-insight the other day......ID Creationism is to Evolution
as Liberal ideology is to Economics.

It's just that Liberals have so many crazy ideas about money, and social science that is absolutely disasterous, but they refuse to acknowledge the legitimate principles of economics.

Maybe it's a stretch - but one is a science and the favored ideology - NOT

65 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:20:05pm

re: #51 Charles

I've noticed that it doesn't matter how much I post on other subjects. Every time there's a thread on the intelligent design hoax, the same people pop up and tell me I'm wasting my time, they're bored, who cares, etc.

Not so different than the threads on fascism, if you ask me, and look how that turned out. You were right all along about those bastards and you're right about this too.

66 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:20:26pm

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

67 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:20:31pm
68 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:20:45pm

In our CT highschool, the brighter kids get a good education while the average and below average kids are indoctrinated into potential eco-socialist state workers. How much is a state willing to dumb down the majority of kids for what purpose. Control? Subversion?

69 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:21:05pm

re: #57 Alberta Oil Peon

And if Charles wasn't diligent about bringing things like this to your attention, how, may I ask, would you even know if it were being done in your school district? Do you make a practice of attending all the meetings at which textbooks are chosen?

Intelligent Design is merely one of the many demons of irrationality against which we must struggle. Consider these posts as disseminating intelligence about the enemy.

It's very prominent in the fundamental homeschool community which is a subset of the Christian homeschool community.

70 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:21:16pm

Great article, Charles. Those people are not, borderline deranged, just plain deranged does it nicely. Nice job tweaking their noses, too.

71 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:21:34pm

re: #57 Alberta Oil Peon

And if Charles wasn't diligent about bringing things like this to your attention, how, may I ask, would you even know if it were being done in your school district? Do you make a practice of attending all the meetings at which textbooks are chosen?

Intelligent Design is merely one of the many demons of irrationality against which we must struggle. Consider these posts as disseminating intelligence about the enemy.

not ALL, but I do review the curriculum and the list of texts prior to the opening of each school year

(thats my JOB as a PARENT)

72 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:22:10pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

Enlighten the rest of us as to the threat. Imagine if we'd all been on top of Fannie and Freddie the whole time - that didn't come out right - but you know what I mean.

73 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:22:53pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

You are beginning to get on my last nerve.

74 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:23:09pm

re: #62 Tarkloon

You have to have someone with standing to file, and to have someone with standing you have to have a parent who knows enough to flush out this nonsense, as well as one who has enough spine to confront it. It could take a while to hit that combo.

/are you kidding me?

75 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:23:16pm
76 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:24:04pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

Taking them at all seriously is the wrong approach. Mockery, scorn, and open derision can work wonders.

77 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:24:38pm

re: #73 Charles

You are beginning to get on my last nerve.

/well, I certainly don't want to do that, I'll take a break

78 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:25:39pm

re: #74 Killian Bundy

No I am not kidding you. Those are facts, did Kitzmiller happen in an Urban school district? No. It did not. Do you suppose that parents in rural districts are avid members? Probably not, and they are probably paying more attention to other things.

79 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:26:49pm

re: #16 Killian Bundy

I'm pretty sure my position's clear.

/it's not going to fly once it hits the courts and there's not really much you can do about it preemptively

You can expose it to public scrutiny, and with luck, not have to deal with it in the courts.

80 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:26:52pm

Sarah Palin is evidence of Survival of the Fittest - and with 5 children she continues to pass on her DNA. Meanwhile liberals continue to eliminate their future voters.

81 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:26:59pm

re: #61 Charles

Are you a creationist?

If you're asking me if I beleive what my faith and religion teaches me about the origin of life, than I would say yes
If you are asking if I beleive that this earth and all living and non-living things on it have evolved over the eons, I would also have to say yes.
Do I force my beleifs on others? By your mere question to me (the fact that you nor others here know if I was or not) proves that I do NOT force my beleifs on others. Do I want Creationism/ ID/ Explore Evolution/ or the phrase du jour taught in PUIBLIC SCHOOLS,,, again , see my #37

82 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:28:17pm

re: #77 Killian Bundy

/well, I certainly don't want to do that, I'll take a break

is there room in the TAKE A BREAK corner of the room for me too ?

83 solomonpanting  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:30:02pm

Science needs ID like a fish needs a bicycle.

84 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:31:13pm

re: #69 DistantThunder

It's very prominent in the fundamental homeschool community which is a subset of the Christian homeschool community.

DT, I don't think I would want to be part of a country that tried to dictate what parents could or could not teach to their own children. Other than home-schooled kids should be able to pass standard exams on the Three R type stuff.

The problem with the ID crowd is that they are attempting to use the taxpayer-funded public education system to indoctrinate other people's children into their cult. That's a very Fascist notion, when you think about it. (I debated the use of the term "leftist" instead of "fascist", and decided it's a toss-up.)

85 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:31:30pm

re: #68 MacGregor

In our CT highschool, the brighter kids get a good education while the average and below average kids are indoctrinated into potential eco-socialist state workers. How much is a state willing to dumb down the majority of kids for what purpose. Control? Subversion?

All of the above.


"Isn't ignorance and superstition the foundation of all dictatorships?"

-Second Stage Lensman, E.E. "Doc" Smith

If people are taught to think magically, and taught that it is wrong (evil, immoral, "judgmental") to think logically, ipso facto they are more easily controlled, and will tend to fall into the traditional "The Leader Knows Best" mode so beloved of every totalitarian movement in history.

"Magical Thinking" is a mode in which cause and effect are not recognized as related to each other, and in which literally anything can be seen as existing simply because someone wished it so. By extension, this disconnect results in people failing to recognize that when an illogical or irrational procedure is followed repeatedly, it will fail the same way every time. As per Einstein's observation that

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result each time.


In this respect, the IDiots and the "Progressives" have much in common.


cheers

eon

86 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:33:04pm

The more this subject is talked about here and in other parts of the web, the more likely the dishonest tactics of the Discovery Institute and its allies will become more commonly known. The sooner the better, because the task of repairing science education will otherwise become more and more expensive. After this week, at least, that should mean something.

Keep on posting, Charles.

87 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:33:19pm

re: #71 sattv4u2

not ALL, but I do review the curriculum and the list of texts prior to the opening of each school year

(thats my JOB as a PARENT)

Great! Now that this thread has informed you of this snake-in-the-grass excuse for a supplemental text, you can be ready to squelch it when it rears its ugly head in your school district.

88 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:33:54pm

re: #78 Tarkloon

No I am not kidding you. Those are facts, did Kitzmiller happen in an Urban school district? No. It did not. Do you suppose that parents in rural districts are avid members? Probably not, and they are probably paying more attention to other things.

Having lived for 45 years in Boston, and for the past 10 in rural Georgia, I would say that the exact OPPOSITE is true. In the URBAN setting, a very small percentage of parents were involved. In the rural/ suburbs, the participation is much greater, IMHO

89 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:34:19pm

Hi gang!

What are we discussing?

90 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:34:44pm

re: #87 Alberta Oil Peon

Great! Now that this thread has informed you of this snake-in-the-grass excuse for a supplemental text, you can be ready to squelch it when it rears its ugly head in your school district.

see my #37 ,.,,,

91 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:35:03pm

I was checking out Derbyshire's radio program that he is now posting at his website. He was talking about jihadism in England. Then he noted how many people dismiss the threat because they claim the extremists make up a minority of all the Muslims there. Derbyshire then cleverly pointed out that all crazy philosophies start at the bottom. He asked how many Nazis there were when they first started out; He then said, "I happen to know the answer to that one... 6."

Anyway, the point is if you ignore a problem because it is small and on the fringe, it can grow into a gargantuan problem. Sorry, just wanted to share that bit of info. John of course said it better than I wrote it.

92 Palandine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:35:49pm

Go see An American Carol.

Very, very funny film. Classic Zucker.

You'll laugh out loud and yet there are parts where you'll tear up. Kelsey Grammar is great, and John Voigt is just quietly devastating.

And I want to have Dennis Hopper's baby. :)

Go. Go now.

93 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:36:08pm
Whenever these cells sense a favorable environment above ground, they head for the surface and self-organize into a fully formed, multicellular animal. No, I am not making this up.

We have been waiting for years but here it is at last...Intelligent Design:The Theory. This is hilarious!

94 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:36:21pm

re: #89 Racer X

Hi gang!

What are we discussing?


Nothing controversial.

95 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:36:21pm

re: #75 taxfreekiller

By the by anyone know the real good recipe for cooking alligator gar fish?

Probably the recipe for coyote would work.

Throw in a pot of water, along with a rock. Boil until the rock is tender.

Eat the rock.

96 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:38:09pm

re: #83 solomonpanting

Science needs ID like a fish needs a bicycle need Mercury.

ID poisons science and makes it unsuitable for human consumption.

97 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:38:16pm
98 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:38:30pm

Oh.

As you were.

99 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:38:53pm

re: #89 Racer X

Hi gang!

What are we discussing?

Boobs and beer

100 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:39:24pm

QUESTION FOR THE CLASS

Lets say you are an Evolutionist. Lets say the guy at work sitting in the cubicle next to you is a Creationsit. You two talk about things,, football,,, the new secretaries ass,,, the Thai restaurant that just opened across the street,,,, Obama/McCain,,,right ?

How often do you get into Evo/ ID "chats" ?

101 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:39:43pm

re: #99 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Boobs and beer


I'd like some of each please.

102 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:40:15pm

re: #101 opnion

I'd like some of each please.

one on the other, in fact

103 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:40:16pm

re: #22 sattv4u2

Tha the does. Do you have any evidence that he wants to institute the theory of ID in the LA public schools (and not just because he is a beleiver)

Here:

CURRICULUM

Senate Bill 733 by Senator Nevers (Act 473) provides for the Louisiana Science Education Act which requires the State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education (BESE), upon the request of a local school board, to allow and assist teachers, principals, and other school administrators to create and foster an environment withing the public schools that promotes critical thinking skills, logical analysis, and open and objective discussion of scientific theories being studied including, but not limited to, evolution, the origins of life, global warming, and human cloning. Requires teachers to teach the material in the standard textbook supplied by the school system, but allows the teacher to use relevant supplemental textbooks and instructional materials as permitted by the local school board, unless the use of such materials is otherwise prohibited by BESE.

from 2008 La. Senate Session Information

104 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:41:03pm

From Casey Luskin:

ID does not address religious questions about the identity of the designer, and in fact ID proponents have diverse views about the identity of the designer;

ID proponents give principled reasons why ID does not identify the designer, stemming from ID’s intent to respect the limits of science and not attempt to address religious questions that go beyond what can be scientifically inferred from the empirical data;

Whether traditional theists or not, ID proponents are entirely open about their views on the identity of the designer;

ID proponents make it clear that their views about the identity of the designer are their personal religious views, and not conclusions of ID.

Ooops Casey slipped. Personal religious views do not get taught as science either. By Casey's view, Yahyun's views on creationism are just as valid as Christian in your public schoolroom, along with astrology.

105 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:41:06pm

re: #85 eon

Just as the magical thinking about global warming leads to control and subversion, but it gets a pass in science class.

106 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:41:14pm

re: #51 Charles

I've noticed that it doesn't matter how much I post on other subjects. Every time there's a thread on the intelligent design hoax, the same people pop up and tell me I'm wasting my time, they're bored, who cares, etc.

Yeah - well ... and then there is the silent majority who do care. Keep it up please. It's a subject that challenges core beliefs for some.

107 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:41:31pm

re: #102 sattv4u2

one on the other, in fact


No, I think that they go together,

108 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:02pm
109 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:05pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

We mostly talk about whether light is a wave or a particle.

110 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:09pm

re: #60 sattv4u2

Louisiana public school teachers can now educate their students about the theory of intelligent design and scientific criticisms of Darwinian evolutionary theory

Is there a sanctioned textbook? (that IS the subject of this thread, btw) In that the teacher CAN (not MUST ,,, not HAS TOO) is also telling

Again, please see my #37, highlighted portions in particular

I can not find any references off hand that specifically state A GIVEN TEXTBOOK is mandated. What I did find reading various sites is alarming to me given the sheer number of assaults on the subject of evolution there has been. The various cases, too many to list here individually, are found here. Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Georgia, West Virginia, Arkansas, Montana, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Mississippi, and Texas as well as the Santorum Amendment in 2001 which the DI had a hand in writing.
The logic and reasoning power of these ID folks is in abeyance.

111 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:23pm

re: #95 Alberta Oil Peon

Probably the recipe for coyote would work.

Throw in a pot of water, along with a rock. Boil until the rock is tender.

Eat the rock.

It has a "mud vein" like a carp. Remove it, dry the flesh, grill.

Then feed to dog.

Well, when I was six, my Black and Tan hound, Barney, would eat it.

Of course his nicknames were "The Garbage Disposal", "Upchuck", and "Barney, Don't Eat That, It'll Make You Sick!"

/usually said yelled when "It" was halfway down his gullet already

cheers

eon

112 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:42:29pm

re: #106 Bobibutu

Yeah - well ... and then there is the silent majority who do care. Keep it up please. It's a subject that challenges core beliefs for some.

How would you answer my #100, then?

113 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:00pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

Rarely if ever, but then we aren't in a science classroom either. Cut the cruft and get to your point.

114 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:23pm

re: #109 Basho

We mostly talk about whether light is a wave or a particle.

oh geeezzz ,,, not THAT old dead horse !

115 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:25pm

re: #108 MandyManners

Actuallly, I'm a monkey's aunt, dahlin'.

Now that's a woman. Yeah baby!

116 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:40pm
117 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:43:40pm
118 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:44:18pm
This presentation can also be considered a "bait and switch"—take a real scientific controversy, tell your readers that it exists, and then substitute in the controversy you'd like them to think exists without comment. This is obvious in the section on the fossil record, where the Reply section contains a long list of academic discussions of the limitations in our collections of fossils. That section wraps up by claiming these limitations, "have led some scientists to doubt that the fossil record supports the case for common descent."

Who are those scientists? Well, poor Malcolm Gordon (who actually wrote in favor of common descent) gets dragged out again, but the rest aren't actually scientists, nor are their publications peer-reviewed science. Instead, there's a book by an Italian creationist and another by Discovery Institute Fellows, including some of EE's authors. The bait of real issues has been switched to a statement that isn't actually supported by the footnote.

This is just the height of intellectual dishonesty. If you can dazzle them with real science, fool them with bullsh*t.

119 Alberta Oil Peon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:44:41pm

re: #105 MacGregor

Just as the magical thinking about global warming leads to control and subversion, but it gets a pass in science class.

Can't argue with that. Bad science is bad science, regardless of its source.

There do appear to be some people who would have us adopt bad evolutionary science, as a counter to the bad atmospheric science. That works about as well as adopting Fascism as a counter to mohammedan supremacism.

120 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:06pm

re: #115 opnion

Now that's a woman. Yeah baby!

Smile when you say that.

121 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:10pm

re: #113 Tarkloon

Rarely if ever, but then we aren't in a science classroom either. Cut the cruft and get to your point.

I've made it, repeatedly (for the breif synopsis, see my #37, especially the highlighted sections)

Better yet ,, see my #100

122 Spar Kling  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:17pm

I read the review and found it pretty much of a rehash, full of sound and fury but lacking in convincing substance. The "IBL" (Inquiry Based Learning) he claims is being abused is actually a good thing, while the doctrinaire approach he seems to advocate regarding teaching the Immutable Fact of Evolution Beyond all Inquiry and Dispute, is death to free inquiry. Incidentally, IBL is better known as "the discovery approach" and is the best way of teaching free thinking scientists (and is the worst way of teaching the Future Bureaucrats of America).

Nevertheless . . .

I've always been intrigued by the idea of multiple origins and trees of life rather than the unlikely single tree of life being preached in Science classrooms today. I disagree with the orchard pruning analogy the textbook uses and agree that any "leading students down a garden path" approach is condescending and contrary to scientific investigation.

I also disagree that any ID is needed to "prune the orchard," because natural disasters, environmental change, and increased competition for ecological niches can remove closely related species, creating additional genomic distance.

I vehemently disagree that this part of science is immutable and should be taught as such in order not to "confuse" students. This is elitist snobbery. The fringe theory of today often becomes the scientific gospel of tomorrow (catastrophism and continental drift are two examples that immediately come to mind).

But the book doesn't only promote stupidity, it demands it. In every way except its use of the actual term, this is a creationist book, but its authors are expecting that legislators and the courts will be too stupid to notice that, or to remember that the Supreme Court has declared teaching creationism an unconstitutional imposition of religion.

Oh, come on. This sort of ranting and fuming is not helpful. I haven't read the book, only the review, but while I probably would very much dislike the book from what he describes, there are surely less emotional way of rejecting creationist propoganda.

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

- sk

123 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:19pm

re: #88 sattv4u2

Having lived for 45 years in Boston, and for the past 10 in rural Georgia, I would say that the exact OPPOSITE is true. In the URBAN setting, a very small percentage of parents were involved. In the rural/ suburbs, the participation is much greater, IMHO

I agree there. Very few parents show up for Parent/Teacher meetings in the city. In the 'burbs or rural, it seems to be a social function given the attendance.

124 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:30pm

re: #118 Sharmuta
You just described Sophistry.

125 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:57pm

re: #109 Basho

We mostly talk about whether light is a wave or a particle.

Actually - both - depending on your observation technique.

126 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:45:57pm

re: #24 sattv4u2

I do daily, thank you
I'll take that as a NO, there are NO public schools that use the text

Just wait a while. As the article in question says itself:

In June, Louisiana became the first state to enact a law specifically enabling the use of supplemental materials for the critical evaluation of evolution; similar legislation has been introduced in several other states. EE appears to have been intelligently designed to be the sort of supplemental text that's appropriate under the Louisiana legislation, and so it's likely to be making an appearance in classrooms there. But EE may appear in other states, as the approval process for supplementary material is often far less strict than that governing textbooks.

127 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:46:29pm

re: #120 MandyManners

Smile when you say that.

Mandy, trust me I did. It is a great picture.

128 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:46:46pm
129 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:47:47pm

Red Sox just hit a three run home run. Woot!

130 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:47:51pm

re: #126 Salamantis

Just wait a while. As the article in question says itself:

In June, Louisiana became the first state to enact a law specifically enabling the use of supplemental materials for the critical evaluation of evolution; similar legislation has been introduced in several other states. EE appears to have been intelligently designed to be the sort of supplemental text that's appropriate under the Louisiana legislation, and so it's likely to be making an appearance in classrooms there. But EE may appear in other states, as the approval process for supplementary material is often far less strict than that governing textbooks.

And here is the act

131 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:47:54pm

re: #122 Spar Kling

Did you ever find those papers you claimed to know about that supported Intelligent Design and had been 'unjustly' excluded from peer review?

132 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:48:05pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

QUESTION FOR THE CLASS

Lets say you are an Evolutionist. Lets say the guy at work sitting in the cubicle next to you is a Creationsit. You two talk about things,, football,,, the new secretaries ass,,, the Thai restaurant that just opened across the street,,,, Obama/McCain,,,right ?

How often do you get into Evo/ ID "chats" ?

I personally have yet to meet a creationist, specifically a "young earth" believer subset, who did not get a tad.... aggressive... in proselytizing his/her belief as The One True Answer. Especially once he or she found out that the person "next door" was an "unbeliever". This highly missionary mentality seems to be part and parcel of the belief system, rather like "witnessing" in some revivalist churches.

/This is yet another reason that I have not been inside a church for the last 44 years, except on official business

cheers

eon

133 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:48:19pm

re: #125 Bobibutu

Actually - both - depending on your observation technique.

Hah. Yeah I knew that. It was a joke ;D

Just making Tarkloon's point that:

re: #113 Tarkloon

Rarely if ever, but then we aren't in a science classroom either.

134 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:49:08pm

As the left goes nuts over Palin, here is some beauty: The San Gabriel Mountains at the end of the Day:


The Towercam. Pacific Time Zone.

135 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:49:58pm

re: #128 taxfreekiller

Fist only use the small alligator gar, throw the 5' ones back.

Clean by skinning the gar, use a fillet knife to do a clean gutting, you know like Sarah Palin did to Biden, be sure to leave the head on but get the brains out and the eyes too. For taste use lots of garlic, cyan pepper, sea salt, Tabasco a bit while cooking. Now the important deal is to
find the most soft salt ceder wood, the red salt ceder is best.

Get some good mesquite wood , the roots are best to flavor , burn the roots down to coals, lay the fish and its garnish on the soft red ceder
about 4" above the coals, cook real slow on both sides, takes about an
hour , 30 min a side.

man on man

Oh, hell TFK - just eat the damn thing raw for the protein and move on.

;-)

136 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:50:04pm

re: #129 CapeCoddah

Red Sox just hit a three run home run. Woot!

I am happy for you, but my White Sox stepped in shit & decided to stamp their feet in it. Oh the pain!

137 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:50:27pm

re: #134 Ojoe

As the left goes nuts over Palin, here is some beauty: The San Gabriel Mountains at the end of the Day:


The Towercam. Pacific Time Zone.

Looks awesome tonight! A bit chilly up there I bet.

138 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:50:53pm
139 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:51:31pm

BBIAB

(i'm sure you'll all be counting the minutes)

140 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:51:33pm

re: #101 opnion

I'd like some of each please.

Well, I can help with half of it anyways

141 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:51:38pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

QUESTION FOR THE CLASS

Lets say you are an Evolutionist. Lets say the guy at work sitting in the cubicle next to you is a Creationsit. You two talk about things,, football,,, the new secretaries ass,,, the Thai restaurant that just opened across the street,,,, Obama/McCain,,,right ?

How often do you get into Evo/ ID "chats" ?

I would be worried if I were a weapons specialist trying to figure out an answer to a nano-scale attack and the scientist next to me says something like "We can't figure that out because God designed it and it is too perfect for us to try to understand.

142 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:51:58pm

re: #136 opnion
That Stinks. (no pun intended) Been there. Sorry.

143 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:15pm

re: #137 Racer X

At the bottom of the image they post the temperature. It may be a few hours back, the temperature; the image is within the last 4 mins. or so.

144 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:20pm

re: #135 Bobibutu

Oh, hell TFK - just eat the damn thing raw for the protein and move on.

;-)

Sounds a hell of a lot easier. Less time too. In Japan they would charge you an arm and leg by calling it sashimi.

145 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:42pm
146 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:53pm
147 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:53pm

re: #128 taxfreekiller

I missed you at the Fairmont. Was heading out at 9AM, and discovered that I had a dead alternator and damaged battery. Got downtown after 2PM. Most everyone was gone. RATS!

148 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:52:55pm

Well, I got a nice glass of homebrew.

*looks around room for the other item of interest*

149 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:53:03pm

re: #140 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Well, I can help with half of it anyways

Can' open it.

150 The Shadow Do  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:53:52pm

re: #67 taxfreekiller

Can not please every one all the time so, its good to please yourself some of the time too, also.

Sort of like if its your stock tank and you want to stock it with carp and eat carp, its your hook, your bait and your fishing pole and your time.
So, other fishermen need to try to get an invite to the next pond where there are lots of bass and stuff.

Myself, I'm personally creationist undesigned thus nothing makes any sense to me or about me ever, and I fish for alligator gar.

Holy moley. I think I understood this.

151 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:54:20pm

re: #143 Ojoe

At the bottom of the image they post the temperature. It may be a few hours back, the temperature; the image is within the last 4 mins. or so.

Only 58 right now. I once played in the snow right over there - - - >

152 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:54:27pm

re: #149 opnion

Can' open it.

Bah!

Try this then

153 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:54:46pm

re: #142 CapeCoddah

That Stinks. (no pun intended) Been there. Sorry.


They left too many men on base. If we can't make it, go Red Siox!

154 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:54:54pm
155 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:55:02pm

re: #150 The Shadow Do

Holy moley. I think I understood this.

Then you need another drink.

156 The Shadow Do  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:55:41pm

re: #75 taxfreekiller

By the by anyone know the real good recipe for cooking alligator gar fish?

Gar soup. Boil for three days minimum

157 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:56:15pm

re: #153 opnion

They left too many men on base. If we can't make it, go Red Siox!

Lol, thanks...I think.

158 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:56:28pm

re: #152 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Bah!

Try this then

OMG, my first wife! She was too possevive, ya know?

159 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:56:49pm

re: #141 MacGregor

I would be worried if I were a weapons specialist trying to figure out an answer to a nano-scale attack and the scientist next to me says something like "We can't figure that out because God designed it and it is too perfect for us to try to understand.

I get what you're saying but, not everyone who believes that God made it all also put everything beyond our reach!

What are the stars if not a destiny?

160 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:05pm

re: #122 Spar Kling

The "IBL" (Inquiry Based Learning) he claims is being abused is actually a good thing

Really? That part scared the hell out of me because of this:

EE gives its authors the chance to determine what information is relevant for students in order to apply IBL to evolution

Notice it doesn't give teachers the chance, or scientists the chance to determine what is relevant, but the authors of the book. Authors whose mission it is to intentionally mislead children into disregarding the veracity of evolution. That isn't IBL, it's IBS (Intentional Bullshit) and it's wrong- morally, intellectually, and scientifically wrong.

161 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:07pm

re: #157 CapeCoddah

Lol, thanks...I think.

Typo, Go Red SOX!

162 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:34pm

re: #141 MacGregor

I would be worried if I were a weapons specialist trying to figure out an answer to a nano-scale attack and the scientist next to me says something like "We can't figure that out because God designed it and it is too perfect for us to try to understand.

I'd be worried if you were as weapons specialist also !

j/k

163 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:46pm

re: #161 opnion

LOL

164 swamprat  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:57:51pm

But if Creationism were real, it would prove the existence of god. And if the existence of God were proven, there would be no faith. And without faith, God would be just another dull, souless physical phenomena.....Thusly, creationism is anti-religion. Example here.

165 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:58:24pm

re: #144 Outrider

Sounds a hell of a lot easier. Less time too. In Japan they would charge you an arm and leg by calling it sashimi.

Addicted since '63. Donated massive amounts of $ to the chefs retirements all over the world.

Yum!

166 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 6:59:25pm

re: #164 swamprat

But if Creationism were real, it would prove the existence of god. And if the existence of God were proven, there would be no faith. And without faith, God would be just another dull, souless physical phenomena.....Thusly, creationism is anti-religion. Example here.


I was going to say something similar, but you said it well.

167 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:00:35pm

re: #162 sattv4u2

I'd be worried if you were as weapons specialist also !

j/k


ROFL!

168 opnion  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:01:05pm

Good ni.ght Lizards. Catch ya later.

169 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:01:59pm

re: #164 swamprat

But if Creationism were real, it would prove the existence of god. And if the existence of God were proven, there would be no faith. And without faith, God would be just another dull, souless physical phenomena.....Thusly, creationism is anti-religion. Example here.

It gets weirder with intelligent design... ID of course says there is a designer, but won't say what it is, who it is, what methods it used, where it came from, what its intention was, where it is now, what it looks like, etc.

Creationists tend to think acceptance of ID leads into acceptance of biblical creationism. It actually doesn't do anything but let anybody fill in those stated blanks with whatever unprovable belief they have no matter how insane.

170 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:02:12pm

re: #159 MandyManners

... not everyone who believes that God made it all also put everything beyond our reach!

What are the stars if not a destiny?

Strongly agree Mandy.

171 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:02:21pm

re: #164 swamprat

on the other hand ,, there IS that pesky "missing link" thingy ! (unless, of course, it's him!)

[Link: www.anniemayhem.com...]

172 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:03:12pm

re: #100 sattv4u2

QUESTION FOR THE CLASS

Lets say you are an Evolutionist. Lets say the guy at work sitting in the cubicle next to you is a Creationsit. You two talk about things,, football,,, the new secretaries ass,,, the Thai restaurant that just opened across the street,,,, Obama/McCain,,,right ?

How often do you get into Evo/ ID "chats" ?

Don't be a pig. What if the new secretary administrative assistant is a man?

173 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:03:58pm

re: #172 Sharmuta

Don't be a pig. What if the new secretary administrative assistant is a man?

sorry,,, I'm pre-PC ,, so ,,,, how's HIS ass ?

174 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:04:12pm

re: #172 Sharmuta

LOL ;D

175 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:05:30pm

re: #165 Bobibutu

Addicted since '63. Donated massive amounts of $ to the chefs retirements all over the world.

Yum!

Yeah, I ate a lot of it when I was in Okinawa. Don't really trust it so much here in Georgia. Called bait, don't you know. ;-)>

176 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:06:14pm
177 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:07:08pm

re: #170 MacGregor

Strongly agree Mandy.

Not everything we turn our hand to is constructive. NBC weapons come to mind. So does gun-powder.

That's the gift of Eden: the power to choose which path we take. And, the burden of responsibility.

178 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:07:36pm

re: #173 sattv4u2

sorry,,, I'm pre-PC ,, so ,,,, how's HIS ass ?

Not as important as his personality and intellect.

179 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:08:13pm

re: #164 swamprat

But if Creationism were real, it would prove the existence of god. And if the existence of God were proven, there would be no faith. And without faith, God would be just another dull, souless physical phenomena.....Thusly, creationism is anti-religion. Example here.

Also, Creationism leads directly to contradiction of God's nature, if you follow St. Augustine's arguments, in that if God created everything to be perfect In His Own Image, and we (humans) are physically imperfect (in "design", as it were), then the Creationist/ "Intelligent Design" belief system mandates that God deliberately made Man physically imperfect- a direct contradiction of His nature as defined by Christian beliefs.

/If you follow any illogical belief system back to its basic tenets, you will inevitably find that they are self-contradictory.

cheers

eon

180 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:08:35pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

Not as important as his personality and intellect.

IBS. ;)

181 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:09:40pm

re: #178 Sharmuta

Not as important as his personality bank account and intellect 401 K plan.


BAD SATT ,, BAD BAD BAD

182 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:10:15pm
183 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:10:50pm
184 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:11:14pm

re: #179 eon

Does the Bible specifically that God made everything perfect? I don't know where that idea comes from.

185 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:11:39pm

re: #179 eon

Also, Creationism leads directly to contradiction of God's nature, if you follow St. Augustine's arguments, in that if God created everything to be perfect In His Own Image, and we (humans) are physically imperfect (in "design", as it were), then the Creationist/ "Intelligent Design" belief system mandates that God deliberately made Man physically imperfect- a direct contradiction of His nature as defined by Christian beliefs.

/If you follow any illogical belief system back to its basic tenets, you will inevitably find that they are self-contradictory.

cheers

eon

Didn't imperfection come about as a result of our choice to disobey in Eden?

186 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:12:18pm

re: #185 MandyManners

Didn't imperfection come about as a result of our choice to disobey in Eden?

DID ADAM AND EVE HAVE NAVELS?

187 Cicero05  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:12:38pm

Reading Timmer's review, it really strikes you just how cynical and intentionally deceptive the Discovery Institute types are. They have to know that their pet theory isn't accepted by any legitimate part of the scientific community because their purported description of the scientific landscape needs to be so deliberately edited. If they gave a balanced view of their subject, ID would be laughed out of the classrioom and they know it.

The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales. They're perfectly happy to have students go away with the false idea that science in general is confused, uncertain and never to be trusted, and that one crank's crackpot theory is just as worthy of respect as the consensus of the legitimate scientific community. Why wouldn't a student just decide that nobody really knows anything and science has no inherent value to society as a means for uncovering truth?

These are bad people with a deviously harmful agenda.

188 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:13:41pm

re: #184 Basho

Does the Bible specifically that God made everything perfect? I don't know where that idea comes from.

My Mom always told me god made ME perfect !

(of course, when I was in my pre- teens, I found out how well mom lied ! )

189 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:14:31pm

re: #186 MandyManners

DID ADAM AND EVE HAVE NAVELS?

Just Armies. Not close enough to enough water for Navels.....oh! You meant Navel Oranges......No. It was an apple tree. ;-)>

190 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:14:35pm
191 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:14:47pm

re: #122 Spar Kling

Now the creationist shills are showing up.

192 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:15:29pm

re: #175 Outrider

Yeah, I ate a lot of it when I was in Okinawa. Don't really trust it so much here in Georgia. Called bait, don't you know. ;-)>

They have it pretty much standardized now - quality control - so you get like McDonalds only it's sushi. Most everything is air shipped to Japan - processed and then shipped worldwide.

Used to dive in SoCal. Collected Urchins and brought to a sushi bar there in a gunny sack - Da master would feed us for free and sell the rest to the public for astro prices.

There is nothing like fresh Uni.

193 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:15:36pm

re: #181 sattv4u2

Yeah- that's pretty insulting.

194 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:15:53pm

re: #186 MandyManners

DID ADAM AND EVE HAVE NAVELS?

More importantly, were they "innies" or "outties"?

195 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:16:03pm

re: #187 Cicero05

I agree. Damaging the education of our science students is a form of sabotage of a national resource, and it's happening during wartime.

196 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:16:07pm

re: #187 Cicero05

. . .

The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales. They're perfectly happy to have students go away with the false idea that science in general is confused, uncertain and never to be trusted, and that one crank's crackpot theory is just as worthy of respect as the consensus of the legitimate scientific community. Why wouldn't a student just decide that nobody really knows anything and science has no inherent value to society as a means for uncovering truth?

These are bad people with a deviously harmful agenda.

I agree these people have a deviously harmful agenda. I agree the DI are frauds, and that they are willing to sacrifice the education of our kids to their own agenda.

However, I disagree with you that religion is nothing more than "stupid religious fairy tales", or "crank crackpot" theories.

197 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:16:45pm

re: #189 Outrider

Just Armies. Not close enough to enough water for Navels.....oh! You meant Navel Oranges......No. It was an apple tree. ;-)>

Since the Bible doesn't specify, I prefer to think of it as a pear tree.

198 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:16:56pm

re: #131 jaunte

Did you ever find those papers you claimed to know about that supported Intelligent Design and had been 'unjustly' excluded from peer review?

No, he didn't. It was a phony claim, and he continues to avoid questions about it.

199 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:17:29pm

re: #194 Tarkloon

More importantly, were they "innies" or "outties"?

Or, maybe "evensies".

200 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:17:57pm

re: #198 Charles

I'm going to keep asking him, and maybe change his name to Joe Biden if he continues to just make things up to score a debating point.

201 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:19:02pm

re: #185 MandyManners

Didn't imperfection come about as a result of our choice to disobey in Eden?

Thyt wouldn't explain flightless birds or the botched up Panda thumb, or the optic blind spot many mammals share. After all, according to Genesis (as well as the evolutionary template), they were made or evolved a few days or several million years before we evolved or were made, depending upon whether or not you quaff mythic koolaid as literal wine.

202 Russkilitlover  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:19:04pm

I don't have kids. And I've been out of school long enough that I only hear about curriculum through third and fourth person review. Where IS creationism being taught or pushed to be taught. Most complaints I hear from parents is that the secular agenda is devastating. I have never heard about creationism in public schools or even relativity vis-a-vis DI/Evoloution. I live in So Cal and would think that this would be a battle line.

Charles, I know that you are passionate on this subject.

203 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:19:18pm

re: #179 eon

Also, Creationism leads directly to contradiction of God's nature, if you follow St. Augustine's arguments, in that if God created everything to be perfect In His Own Image, and we (humans) are physically imperfect (in "design", as it were), then the Creationist/ "Intelligent Design" belief system mandates that God deliberately made Man physically imperfect- a direct contradiction of His nature as defined by Christian beliefs.

Not to mention all the hours that creationists seem to WANT to believe that God personally put in to the design of things like smallpox, the AIDS virus etc.

204 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:20:13pm

re: #187 Cicero05

The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales.

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

205 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:21:03pm

re: #203 Jimmah

Not to mention all the hours that creationists seem to WANT to believe that God personally put in to the design of things like smallpox, the AIDS virus etc.

Those were created by the US government.

/Obama's mind

206 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:21:22pm

re: #106 Bobibutu

What you said.

Good post!

207 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:10pm

re: #201 Salamantis

Thyt wouldn't explain flightless birds or the botched up Panda thumb, or the optic blind spot many mammals share. After all, according to Genesis (as well as the evolutionary template), they were made or evolved a few days or several million years before we evolved or were made, depending upon whether or not you quaff mythic koolaid as literal wine.

/and exactly how many Christians believe that, dodging the stick

208 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:16pm

That's an interesting idea - that all genes have existed for the entire span of life on earth, and that they only express when the time is right. I'd never heard of that. So what is it, the thought is that God created it all in the beginning, and since then it's been revealing itself bit by bit?

209 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:30pm

re: #204 MandyManners

To clarify my response to cicero:
I agree with this part:
"The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students..."
but not the rest of his comment.

210 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:40pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

Believing in God is not a stupid religious fairy tale.

Believing he created the world 5000-10000 years ago and that dinosaurs and cavemen lived together and the Grand Canyon was formed over a couple days during the Biblical flood are stupid fairy tales

211 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:22:48pm

re: #207 Killian Bundy

you've got mail, (I think)

212 right_on_target  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:23:06pm

Louisiana Science Education Act regarding supplemental scientific teaching. There is no mention of creationism but evolution is cited as an example.

So far there haven't been any public school districts that have acted
on the law which was written to begin with the current school year.

213 Cicero05  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:02pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

Owww. That hurt.

My use if the term "religious fairy tale" was meant to refer to the idea that the species were individually created by a divine being. I remain respectful of religion and do not find the operation of evolutionary laws to be inconsistent with the idea of God at all.

214 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:05pm

re: #183 taxfreekiller

TFK - did you ever meet or know Barry Harder (deceased) Cal Berkeley student - worked on the Polaris nose cone design and built a-bombs back in the '60s? Flipped flopped back and forth between Berkeley and Sandia for several years before he went on to MIT. My best boyhood friend.

He raved about the overtime and slept in the assembly room as many others did.

215 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:09pm

re: #210 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Tru dat.

216 Intrepid  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:26pm

We had a drive by post on the previous thread - bashing Palin and kinda calling Charles out for saying Sarah Palin won the debate.

And it got all bold in many places.

/just reporting....

217 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:37pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

amen

218 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:42pm

re: #210 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Believing in God is not a stupid religious fairy tale.

Believing he created the world 5000-10000 years ago and that dinosaurs and cavemen lived together and the Grand Canyon was formed over a couple days during the Biblical flood are stupid fairy tales

Maybe so. Maybe not.

Anyway, I gotta' go tend to my depository of DNA. bbialb

219 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:24:50pm

re: #196 reine.de.tout

I agree these people have a deviously harmful agenda. I agree the DI are frauds, and that they are willing to sacrifice the education of our kids to their own agenda.

However, I disagree with you that religion is nothing more than "stupid religious fairy tales", or "crank crackpot" theories.

He didn't say "religion is nothing more than stupid religious fairy tales or crank crackpot theories" did he? No, he didn't.

220 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:25:05pm

re: #212 right_on_target

Louisiana Science Education Act regarding supplemental scientific teaching. There is no mention of creationism but evolution is cited as an example.

So far there haven't been any public school districts that have acted
on the law which was written to begin with the current school year.

I'm looking forward to Holocaust revisionist materials being brought into history class. Won't that be wonderful? Perhaps pat pukeanan can assist them.

/

221 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:26:06pm

re: #211 sattv4u2

you've got mail, (I think)

/at least 200 messages a day

222 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:26:48pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

He didn't say "The belief in a God who made it all is a stupid religious fairy tale" did he? No, he didn't.

223 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:27:23pm
224 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:27:46pm

re: #206 NY Nana

What you said.

Good post!

Thanks. I seem to get one in now and again.

225 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:27:48pm

re: #221 Killian Bundy

/at least 200 messages a day

yeah ,, maybe so ,,,especially if you count all those Viagra ads and rich people in Africa who want to give you millions just for helping them ,.,,,,!, but mine is REALLY REALLY important !

226 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:27:50pm

re: #220 Sharmuta

I'm looking forward to Holocaust revisionist materials being brought into history class. Won't that be wonderful? Perhaps pat pukeanan can assist them.

/

What was it Ahmidinijad said at Columbia University regarding that? Teach the controversy, show alternate points of view, etc.? Sounded like it came straight from the DI.

227 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:28:05pm

re: #185 MandyManners

Didn't imperfection come about as a result of our choice to disobey in Eden?

re: #184 Basho

Does the Bible specifically that God made everything perfect? I don't know where that idea comes from.

I'm referring to the ID subset, which holds that everything has always existed in its present form, including Man. By this standard, Man was created "as is", complete with all the vulnerabilities that he has had to deal with throughout the ages.

Which means that the Creationist/ID crowd cannot possibly believe in their version of Man's origin, and the Biblical story of the Garden of Eden, simultaneously. Their "hypothesis" and the first chapters of Genesis are directly contradictory, and mutually exclusive.

This is what happens when you try to subvert science in service to a religious belief system. A similar conflict between the fossil record and catastrophism resulted in first Horbiger's "Eternal Ice" theory, and later Velikovsky's "Worlds in Collision" theory, which fortunately ran aground early on when people concluded that when Velikovsky was saying that the planet Venus was originally a comet, he was talking complete drivel. Which he was, just like the IDiots.

cheers

eon

228 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:28:22pm

re: #217 reine.de.tout

amen

But he didn't say that, did he? No, he didn't.

229 Russkilitlover  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:28:49pm

The day before my dad died, I was at his hospital bedside visiting. He was a bit restless and in and out of consciousness. It came time for the shift change of nurses, dad had to be turned, bed sheets changed, etc. I took my leave. I said, 'gotta go dad and make dinner. I'll see you tomorrow.' He came out of his....stupor? delirium? and looked me in the eye, nodding his head enthusiastically. "Tonight's my last night," he said. He died the next afternoon. It hit this agnostic hard upside the head. Something is out there and neither science nor faith has completely explained it. Therefore, pursue the science and keep the faith private.

That's my position, in a nut shell.

230 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:30:45pm

The Discovery Institute vs Copyright

Excellent video re their fraudulent lawsuit.

231 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:33:45pm

re: #224 Bobibutu

I seem to get one in now and again very often.

Fixed it for you!

232 Globular Cluster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:33:52pm

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Joe Biden is getting credit for being more “factual” and substantive than Sarah Palin in last night’s debate. He shouldn’t. A good deal of what Biden said was exaggerated, distorted or simply false — especially in his nominal area of expertise, foreign policy.

Let’s start with Iraq. Biden claimed that John McCain was the “odd man out” in his plans for the war, while the Bush administration and the Iraqi government had adopted the strategy of Barack Obama. The truth is just the opposite. The administration and Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki are still negotiating about the future of the U.S. troop presence, but according to the latest reports they are close to settling on a target date for withdrawal at the end of 2011. That’s a year and a half after Obama’s 16-month timetable would run out. More importantly, Bush, Maliki, U.S. commanders and McCain all agree that the pullout should be “conditions-based” -- it should go forward only as Iraqi forces are able to take over. As Biden confirmed last night, the Obama pullout is not based on conditions; his theory is that the timetable will force action by Iraqis, rather than the other way around. When he visited Iraq in July, Obama was candid enough to confirm that Gen. David Petraeus, Maliki and leaders of the Sunni militia forces all opposed his strategy. On Iraq, he remains the odd man out.

Biden also charged that the United States spends more in Iraq in three weeks than it has in total in Afghanistan. As Chris Wilson of Slate points out, that comes close to being true only if total U.S. spending in Iraq is compared only with non-military spending in Afghanistan -- and even then it’s not true. The United States spends about $8 billion in three weeks in Iraq, compared with a total of $12 billion in non-military spending since 2001 in Afghanistan. In total, Congress has authorized $172 billion in spending for Afghanistan -- or about 61 weeks of spending in Iraq.

Biden said he could find no difference between McCain and Bush on policy toward Israel, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan. He’s right -- there is no real difference. But what he failed to disclose is that there is also no significant difference between Obama’s proposals for those countries and what the Bush administration is doing. Biden denied that Obama agreed to meet unconditionally with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. There he was both right and wrong: Obama did say he would do so in answer to a debate question more than a year ago, but he has since hedged his position considerably. As a practical matter, it’s very unlikely Obama would meet Ahmadinejad if he became president.

Lastly, Biden asserted that both he and Obama had opposed the staging of Palestinian legislative elections in 2005, and had predicted that if they were held Hamas would win. In fact, while Obama signed a letter (with more than 90 other senators) expressing concern that Hamas would participate in the election without disarming, he did not predict the Hamas victory. And Biden did not sign the letter; indeed, he served as an observer at the election that he now says should not have gone forward.

233 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:34:20pm
234 right_on_target  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:34:21pm

The Louisiana Science Education Act also opens the door for the Troofers to "educate" our youth with supplemental literature. ID is just the first foot in the door, there will be others to dumb down America.

235 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:35:51pm

There's some rather blaring grammatical errors in the Schwabe paper, which you wouldn't usually find in a scientific paper.


Considering details it is also the most complex process human curiosity has faced since the rather recent begin of the scientific era...

or..

To the extend permitted by the genomic potential of each unit of the eukaryotic pro-forms,

236 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:36:12pm

re: #219 Tigger2005

He didn't say "religion is nothing more than stupid religious fairy tales or crank crackpot theories" did he? No, he didn't.

I quoted him.
It's what it sounded like to me.
You can think whatever you want.

237 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:36:21pm

re: #234 right_on_target

Soon Harvard Med School will start having classes teaching acupuncture. Oh wait...

238 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:37:12pm

re: #235 cliffster

Looks more like typos that don't usually show up on spellchecker.

239 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:37:14pm

re: #234 right_on_target

The Louisiana Science Education Act also opens the door for the Troofers to "educate" our youth with supplemental literature. ID is just the first foot in the door, there will be others to dumb down America.

Holocaust revisionism, Trooferism, ID, islam...

It's a slippery slope to hell in a hand basket as far as our children's education goes. "Supplemental material" is the new wedge, and it will be abused by others if allowed to stand.

240 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:37:20pm

re: #233 taxfreekiller

Some will have a calm last long moment, some will never know it came,some will fear the whole moment, then the moment will pass,
and there will be light if you need it.

I'm hoping for Audrey Hepburn, actually.

/Like Richard Dreyfuss in Always.

cheers

eon

241 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:37:22pm

re: #227 eon

Velikovsky - he is the inspiration/starting point for those "Electric Sun" theory idiots isn't he? That's another 'controversy' that should never be taught.

242 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:38:04pm

re: #236 reine.de.tout

I quoted him.
It's what it sounded like to me.
You can think whatever you want.

I'm not thinking whatever I want.

That is not what he said.

243 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:38:35pm

re: #240 eon

I'm hoping for Audrey Hepburn, actually.

/Like Richard Dreyfuss in Always.

cheers

eon

Awwww! Me too.

244 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:39:04pm

re: #234 right_on_target

The Louisiana Science Education Act also opens the door for the Troofers to "educate" our youth with supplemental literature. ID is just the first foot in the door, there will be others to dumb down America.

Some home school their kids in order to teach them ID. Our granddaughter is being home schooled in order to avoid this "dumbing down" process and "teach at the slowest students pace" concepts. These two processes have done more to harm our kids and young adults than anything else.

245 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:39:07pm

How many fronts are we fighting in the war to save civilization?

246 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:40:13pm

re: #237 Basho

Soon Harvard Med School will start having classes teaching acupuncture. Oh wait...

Get out of that wheelchair and walk-ah....you are ahealed-ah.....-101

247 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:40:39pm
248 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:40:48pm

re: #242 Tigger2005

I'm not thinking whatever I want.

That is not what he said.

His quote:

". . . sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales", which is the same stupid religious fairy tales I believe in.

So, he is calling religion "stupid religious fairy tales."

I don't agree with him that religion is stupid religious fairy tales.

Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?

249 solomonpanting  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:40:50pm

re: #169 Basho

It gets weirder with intelligent design... ID of course says there is a designer, but won't say what it is, who it is, what methods it used, where it came from, what its intention was, where it is now, what it looks like, etc.

Creationists tend to think acceptance of ID leads into acceptance of biblical creationism. It actually doesn't do anything but let anybody fill in those stated blanks with whatever unprovable belief they have no matter how insane.

Not unlike a certain candidate for POTUS.

250 stevieray  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:41:06pm

re: #245 MandyManners

How many fronts are we fighting in the war to save civilization?

Internal or external?

251 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:42:31pm
252 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:42:32pm
253 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:42:54pm
254 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:43:04pm
255 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:43:41pm

re: #122 Spar Kling

I read the review and found it pretty much of a rehash, full of sound and fury but lacking in convincing substance. The "IBL" (Inquiry Based Learning) he claims is being abused is actually a good thing, while the doctrinaire approach he seems to advocate regarding teaching the Immutable Fact of Evolution Beyond all Inquiry and Dispute, is death to free inquiry. Incidentally, IBL is better known as "the discovery approach" and is the best way of teaching free thinking scientists (and is the worst way of teaching the Future Bureaucrats of America).

The creationist authors not only choose what alternatives are and are not available to the students in order to bias and slant them towards the authors' own agenda, but also skew the significance of those alternatives which they do present. If you have landscaped your own back yard, you know what can and can not be dug up in it; so much for 'student discovery'.

Nevertheless . . .

I've always been intrigued by the idea of multiple origins and trees of life rather than the unlikely single tree of life being preached in Science classrooms today. I disagree with the orchard pruning analogy the textbook uses and agree that any "leading students down a garden path" approach is condescending and contrary to scientific investigation.

This bizarre notion of a dense thicket of independently emerging and arising sources for life is especially ludicrous, considering the immense effort that creationists expend endeavoring to convince others that a SINGLE accidental upwelling of life in the absence of intelligent design is statistically prohibitive (which it isn't). But I guess when one has already abandoned and forsaken logic and evidence, such a little thing as a blatant self-contradiction isn't too troubling. Besides, they're assuming their intelligent designer, and figure on multiple seedings, just like it says in Genesis.

I also disagree that any ID is needed to "prune the orchard," because natural disasters, environmental change, and increased competition for ecological niches can remove closely related species, creating additional genomic distance.

To be precise, the Disco Dewdes don't explain a damn thing; all they do is snipe from the sidelines at the scientific explanations of others. And why? Because they cannot do credible empirical science given their dogmatic assumptions; the evidence betrays them every time.

I vehemently disagree that this part of science is immutable and should be taught as such in order not to "confuse" students. This is elitist snobbery. The fringe theory of today often becomes the scientific gospel of tomorrow (catastrophism and continental drift are two examples that immediately come to mind).

Actually, what we see is the dogmas of yesterday (astrology, alchemy, the doctrine of signatures, phlogiston, flat-earth geocentrism, creationism, etc.) being replaced by the empirically corroborative theories of today (astronomy, chemistry, pharmacology, physics, plantary geography, evolution, etc.).

Oh, come on. This sort of ranting and fuming is not helpful. I haven't read the book, only the review, but while I probably would very much dislike the book from what he describes, there are surely less emotional way of rejecting creationist propoganda.

I also read the review. The reviewer presented a plethora of irrefutable empirical reasons to keep that pack of creationist lies from crawling within a country mile of a public high school science class.

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

- sk

256 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:44:15pm

re: #241 Jimmah

Velikovsky - he is the inspiration/starting point for those "Electric Sun" theory idiots isn't he? That's another 'controversy' that should never be taught.

Yeah. Basically he wrote a stupid book that tried to show that all those mythical events that many cultures have talked about throughout history were all real events caused by astronomical activity that he made up out of his arse. It sounded kinda like the Stargate TV series storyline. He was pretty popular until people started realizing how insane and nonsensical his BS was.

257 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:45:29pm

re: #246 Outrider

Get out of that wheelchair and walk-ah....you are ahealed-ah.....-101

LMAO HAHAHA!

258 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:46:02pm

re: #236 reine.de.tout

I quoted him.
It's what it sounded like to me.
You can think whatever you want.

You're the one who is "thinking whatever you want" and making things up about what somebody said.

The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales.

They're perfectly happy to have students go away with the false idea that science in general is confused, uncertain and never to be trusted, and that one crank's crackpot theory is just as worthy of respect as the consensus of the legitimate scientific community.

He did not say "religion is stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories" did he? No, he didn't. He was very specifically referring to the beliefs and crackpot theories of "these Discovery Institute frauds." He was not calling religion in general "stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories."

259 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:46:09pm

Anyways, this was interesting:

On the other hand one must wonder what evidence could be cited for a factor that could induce so called derived or adaptive features in
animals as they are established above ground? And how would such
a factor influence the genome in an animal to cause changes? The
languages simply do not match. Changes in living animals, if such
were possible, would have to be induced by nucleic acids, not by
the environment. True, the environment can select but as the word
implies only if there is a variety from which to select, and that means
after the fact.

That seems to be missing the point entirely. Plus he seems to be saying that "selection" happens. But it selects based on what genes decided to start expressing themselves? In that case, it's not really environment selecting anything at all.

260 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:47:02pm

re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

The Genesis literalist belief in a God who made millions of species independently and as is in six days six thousand years ago, though, is about as stupid as religious fairy tales get, if stupidity is measured by empirically provable untruth.

261 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:48:29pm

re: #241 Jimmah

Velikovsky - he is the inspiration/starting point for those "Electric Sun" theory idiots isn't he? That's another 'controversy' that should never be taught.

We covered his theories in Astrophysics in high school (senior year). As I recall, we got several good laughs out of them, and nominated him for a Darwin Award*

* Satirical award created by the Harvard Lampoon in 1970. The notional statuette was a monkey with a revolver in its hand, the hammer cocked, looking down the barrel, with the base having the inscription "Stupid People Shouldn't Breed". Since then it has become a catchphrase/meme, primarily spread by news items about stupid criminals- like the bank robber in Austin , TX in 2005 who, when the alarm went off, was trapped between the inner and outer doors of the entrance, essentially in a box made of bulletproof acrylic "glass".

Which he tried to shoot his way out of.

He was cooling off in the morgue two hours later.

cheers

eon

262 right_on_target  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:48:54pm

re: #244 Outrider

Some home school their kids in order to teach them ID. Our granddaughter is being home schooled in order to avoid this "dumbing down" process and "teach at the slowest students pace" concepts. These two processes have done more to harm our kids and young adults than anything else.

________________________
Fortunately I live in one of the parishes of LA with the best schools. Our school board is NOT in favor of ID, Trooferism or other idiotic ism. I do know of a few families that home school and the reason was for religious instruction.

263 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:49:11pm

re: #258 Tigger2005

He did not say "religion is stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories" did he? No, he didn't. He was very specifically referring to the beliefs and crackpot theories of "these Discovery Institute frauds." He was not calling religion in general "stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories."

"THEIR" stupid religious fairy tales is Christianity, which includes MY FAITH.

If he wants to call "their" tales "stupid religious fairy tales", then he's also talking to me, even though I have absolutely no support for the DI or "creationism".

I do not agree with him that religious beliefs are "stupid fairy tales".

I think I am allowed to disagree with him on that.

264 kynna  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:49:19pm

Sorry to go OT but I want to remind everyone to go see An American Carol this weekend. These days a movie has to have a big opening weekend or it's dead. As Rush said today, the actors especially are putting their necks out there. Particularly Kevin Farley who doesn't have a career foundation to fall back on.

Anyway -- hoping to spur a groundswell so Hollywood has incentive to evolve in a positive way. ;D

265 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:49:45pm

re: #248 reine.de.tout

His quote:

". . . sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales", which is the same stupid religious fairy tales I believe in.

So, he is calling religion "stupid religious fairy tales."

I don't agree with him that religion is stupid religious fairy tales.

Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?

You conveniently leave out the first part of his quote.

Then, you not so subtly hint you're being oppressed.

266 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:50:17pm

Quick question, then I'm out for the evening:

re: #38 Wishing

re: #8 HelloDare

The arguments supporting intelligent design are beyond stupid.

Well call me stupid then...i really dont give a rip =)

Were you making a joke about your nic, like a play on words?
As is: Arguments supporting intelligent design = wishing.

If so, well played. If not, it's quite the hilarious coincidence.

267 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:50:20pm

re: #265 Tigger2005

You conveniently leave out the first part of his quote.

Then, you not so subtly hint you're being oppressed.

I don't think I'm being oppressed.

I disagreed. That's all I said.

268 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:50:50pm

re: #256 Basho

That's how the Electric sun theory comes across in their stupid docu-movie on the subject. An attempt to base astronomy around a literal interpretation of ancient texts and symbolic religious diagrams etc. They conclude that nuclear physics is all wrong, and the sun is really a giant electric bulb in space. About as bad as it gets.

269 Cicero05  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:50:58pm

re: #260 Salamantis

The Genesis literalist belief in a God who made millions of species independently and as is in six days six thousand years ago, though, is about as stupid as religious fairy tales get, if stupidity is measured by empirically provable untruth.

That's what I meant when I said "stupid religious fairy tale" in my post, #187. I have never said that religion or belief in God is stupid, and I never would say it.

270 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:08pm

re: #263 reine.de.tout

"THEIR" stupid religious fairy tales is Christianity, which includes MY FAITH.

If he wants to call "their" tales "stupid religious fairy tales", then he's also talking to me, even though I have absolutely no support for the DI or "creationism".

I do not agree with him that religious beliefs are "stupid fairy tales".

I think I am allowed to disagree with him on that.

He did not say "religion is stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories." Unless you think all religion is Christianity.

271 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:10pm

re: #207 Killian Bundy

/and exactly how many Christians believe that, dodging the stick

A whole bunch of Christians. They even have a name (Genesis Biblical Literalists), several websites
[Link: creationontheweb.com...]
[Link: www.answersingenesis.org...]
and are funded in the many millions each year.

272 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:12pm

re: #265 Tigger2005

You conveniently leave out the first part of his quote.

Then, you not so subtly hint you're being oppressed.

Re-read my post.
re: #196 reine.de.tout

I agree these people have a deviously harmful agenda. I agree the DI are frauds, and that they are willing to sacrifice the education of our kids to their own agenda.

However, I disagree with you that religion is nothing more than "stupid religious fairy tales", or "crank crackpot" theories.

I disagreed with him. You say I am subtly hinting that I'm being oppressed.

Are you trying to convert me to something? I said I disagreed. That's all. How you can read into that that I think I'm oppressed is beyond me.

273 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:23pm

re: #266 Slumbering Behemoth

Well by all means, enjoy the coincidence =)

274 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:45pm

re: #245 MandyManners

How many fronts are we fighting in the war to save civilization?

First - we will never be defeated.

The fight has been going on for many centuries.

Fronts? Active - passive - overt - covert?

Mandy - just get on with your and your kids life - know your 6 is covered. That's the best that can be done.

And if sh*t hits the fan - we do what we can do in the moment.

275 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:52:46pm

re: #259 cliffster

Anyways, this was interesting:

That seems to be missing the point entirely. Plus he seems to be saying that "selection" happens. But it selects based on what genes decided to start expressing themselves? In that case, it's not really environment selecting anything at all.

Sorry, his point immediately afterwards was that natural selection at a multicellular level generally would require entire organs to pop up out of nowhere which would require an insane number of simultaneous mutations all aligned. That's at least a good point to raise. So I think he was just feeling like he had to say some shit before he made that point, even it it's stupid shit. Doesn't say much for the guy making the points.

276 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:53:53pm

re: #270 Tigger2005

He did not say "religion is stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories." Unless you think all religion is Christianity.

Actually that should say, "unless you think all religion, and all Christianity, is the very specific creationist beliefs of the D.I."

277 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:54:04pm

re: #208 cliffster

That's an interesting idea - that all genes have existed for the entire span of life on earth, and that they only express when the time is right. I'd never heard of that. So what is it, the thought is that God created it all in the beginning, and since then it's been revealing itself bit by bit?

It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian.

278 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:54:46pm

Tigger for the record I also thought that Cicero diminished his argument with his tedious snipe at religion. It's easy enough to counter the IDiotarians at Discovery institute without taking gratuitously offensive swipes at religious. Cicero smells like a weak-knee'd atheist. If you truly don't believe you really don't find it necessary to denigrate religion in general.

279 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:55:18pm

re: #260 Salamanders

Can you link your essays again?

/I neglected to bookmark them

280 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:55:20pm

re: #277 Salamantis

It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian.

Did the rabbits have sneakers yet?

281 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:55:38pm

re: #277 Salamantis

It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian.

I said it was interesting, not that it was true. I've never heard that particular angle. I will say that you didn't make any point with what you said, other than, "because I say so"

282 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:56:47pm

re: #251 MandyManners

Not all knowledge is good.

Knowledge is power - Babe.

283 right_on_target  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:57:20pm

Erich Von Danniken says E. T. was behind it all. He's got to be right, look at all the books he wrote and sold.

/

284 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:58:08pm

re: #276 Tigger2005

Actually that should say, "unless you think all religion, and all Christianity, is the very specific creationist beliefs of the D.I."

Honestly, I think you've confused me with:
re: #204 MandyManners

The belief in a God who made it all is NOT A STUPID, RELIGIOUS FAIRY TALE!

thhhhhpppppppptttttttttttttttttt

*WHACK*

That attitude pisses me off as much as that which tries to shove faith into a science class.

Cicero already addressed that here:
re: #213 Cicero05

Owww. That hurt.

My use if the term "religious fairy tale" was meant to refer to the idea that the species were individually created by a divine being. I remain respectful of religion and do not find the operation of evolutionary laws to be inconsistent with the idea of God at all.

285 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 7:58:17pm

re: #240 eon

/Like Richard Dreyfuss in Always.

That's a great movie. I might be scorned to say it was better than "Mr. Hollands opus" or even "What about Bob!"

286 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:00:25pm

re: #285 MacGregor

That's a great movie. I might be scorned to say it was better than "Mr. Hollands opus" or even "What about Bob!"

He is a Moonbats Moonbat, but, he was good in JAWS and What about Bob.

287 Tigger2005  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:00:39pm

re: #272 reine.de.tout

I disagreed with him. You say I am subtly hinting that I'm being oppressed.

Are you trying to convert me to something? I said I disagreed. That's all. How you can read into that that I think I'm oppressed is beyond me.

You said "Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?"

You were "disagreeing" with something that the poster did not even say. It just "seemed" to you that he was saying ALL religion is "stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories."

I was trying to correct you, not tell you are not "allowed" to disagree with someone.

288 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:00:51pm

re: #260 Salamantis

The Genesis literalist belief in a God who made millions of species independently and as is in six days six thousand years ago, though, is about as stupid as religious fairy tales get, if stupidity is measured by empirically provable untruth.

Tell you what: KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD.

Such a belief has NO impact on anyone unless and until someone tries to force others to believe it.

Piss off.

289 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:01pm

This question may get me booted, but i will ask it anyway:
Our friends here on LGF who are not here with us tonight, but are rather honoring the Sabbath: Are u suggesting that they have been duped into believing in the God of the Sabbath? You know Creator God and all that? "In six days God created the heaven and the earth and on the seventh day he rested; therefore you will keep the Sabbath."
Am honestly curious if you see them as foolish for honoring the *seventh day* of creation as a rest day.

290 Syrah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:38pm

I still say its Turtles, Turtles all the way down.

291 Cap'n DOC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:42pm

re: #67 taxfreekiller

Oooooh... A throwback, TFK. How do you get around the teeth?

292 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:43pm

Bed time for me. Nite folks :)

293 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:49pm

re: #248 reine.de.tout

His quote:

". . . sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales", which is the same stupid religious fairy tales I believe in.

So, he is calling religion "stupid religious fairy tales."

I don't agree with him that religion is stupid religious fairy tales.

Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?

He is saying that religions CONTAIN stupid religious fairytales, and this is a matter of simple indisputrable fact, if by stupid he means empirically falsifiable; what he did NOT say was that all religion WAS was stupid fairy tales. But that's what you apparently assumed that he said.

294 musicman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:01:57pm

re: #260 Salamantis

The Genesis literalist belief in a God who made millions of species independently and as is in six days six thousand years ago, though, is about as stupid as religious fairy tales get, if stupidity is measured by empirically provable untruth.

Well now I just have to jump in. I believe in a God who could of done it all in six billion years, six million years, six thousand years, six hundred years, six years, six weeks, six days, six minutes or even in six seconds. The God I believe has no limits. When man tries to "out think" God is when man gets into trouble. After all I am a minister and that Bible I carry around means a whole lot to me. To me it is not a book of fairy tales. I share it with others. and let them make their own decisions.

The Word of God had it scientifically right when in Leviticus 17:11 said that the life of a creature was in the blood.

I still love this site.

295 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:02:05pm

re: #287 Tigger2005

You said "Am I not allowed here to disagree with that?"

You were "disagreeing" with something that the poster did not even say. It just "seemed" to you that he was saying ALL religion is "stupid religious fairy tales and crackpot theories."

I was trying to correct you, not tell you are not "allowed" to disagree with someone.

I am duly corrected, chastened and humbled.

296 Tarkloon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:02:13pm

I got my McCain / Palin yardsigns yesterday and put them up btw. The moonbat up the street (we have only one) then had to go out and get their Obama sign, ridiculous as it might be to campaign for Obama in Kansas.

297 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:03:09pm

re: #274 Bobibutu

First - we will never be defeated.

The fight has been going on for many centuries.

Fronts? Active - passive - overt - covert?

Mandy - just get on with your and your kids life - know your 6 is covered. That's the best that can be done.

And if sh*t hits the fan - we do what we can do in the moment.

I not only know that my 6 is covered but, I'm doing my best to cover others' sixes.

I ain't kickin' back 'spectin' others to do for me.

298 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:03:10pm

re: #289 Wishing

This question may get me booted, but i will ask it anyway:
Our friends here on LGF who are not here with us tonight, but are rather honoring the Sabbath: Are u suggesting that they have been duped into believing in the God of the Sabbath? You know Creator God and all that? "In six days God created the heaven and the earth and on the seventh day he rested; therefore you will keep the Sabbath."
Am honestly curious if you see them as foolish for honoring the *seventh day* of creation as a rest day.

Sad that you think you'd get booted for asking/saying that. You'll get roughed up and ridiculed a bit, but nobody's going to get booted for expressing an opinion.

299 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:03:37pm

re: #282 Bobibutu

Knowledge is power - Babe.

Therein is God.

300 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:03:45pm

re: #66 Killian Bundy

There's just no way you can make these people stop believing what they believe.

/and again, until they violate the law, what are you going to do about it?

Educating and informing people has long been the role of journalists and is now also the role of internet journalists, a.k.a. bloggers, if they choose it.

It is important to be an educated, well-informed citizen. What we choose to do with our knowledge will vary. But knowledge is power.

Charles is empowering his readers. That, in itself, is sufficient. He doesn't need to justify to you or anyone else the usefulness of his role or the further actions he or his readers might embark upon. He has taken on this job and we are learning from him. That's all. And that's enough.

301 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:04:12pm

re: #298 cliffster

Sad that you think you'd get booted for asking/saying that. You'll get roughed up and ridiculed a bit, but nobody's going to get booted for expressing an opinion.

Why ?

302 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:04:40pm

I dont think i stated an opinion.

303 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:05:16pm

re: #286 CapeCoddah

He is a Moonbats Moonbat, but, he was good in JAWS and What about Bob.

Ever see "Always"? Good Spielberg movie.

304 Cap'n DOC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:05:19pm

re: #293 Salamantis

Whose quote was it, or do I have to search for it?

305 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:05:49pm

re: #301 Wishing

Why ?

Why what? Why is it sad that you would think that?

306 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:06:15pm

re: #303 MacGregor

NO, It does not ring a bell... Not a huge TV, movie person, but I do have my favorites.

307 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:07:44pm

re: #283 right_on_target

Erich Von Daniken says E. T. was behind it all. He's got to be right, look at all the books he wrote and sold.

/

Yes, and Erich von D, a Swiss hotel-keeper who got in some trouble over financial shenanigans in Austria before coming to the U.S. in 1974, has several beliefs in common with the IDiots. Like his statement, in Gods From Outer Space, that "It is now known that early Man coexisted with the last remnants of the dinosaurs."

Sorry, Erich Baby. Only if you count alligators, crocodiles, monitor lizards, the rest of the reptile genus, and birds. There's about a 65 million year gap there between Tyrannosaurus Rex and Homo Erectus.

Unless you believe, like Scott Adams said in Dilbert, that the dinosaurs aren't extinct- just hiding behind the sofa.

cheers


eon

308 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:08:19pm

re: #303 MacGregor

Ever see "Always"? Good Spielberg movie.

I always liked "Let it ride."

309 Cap'n DOC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:08:20pm

re: #293 Salamantis

BTW - Since you are so hard to catch up with, I did not mean to imply many days ago that your patron saint was St. Polycarp.

310 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:08:50pm

re: #308 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

That was a good one too. Funny movie.

311 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:08:53pm

re: #269 Cicero05

That's what I meant when I said "stupid religious fairy tale" in my post, #187. I have never said that religion or belief in God is stupid, and I never would say it.

Thank you for the clarification.
Now that Tigger thinks I'm a complete moron needing correction.
I will continue to bow, however, before his superior intellect.
And remain suitably corrected, chastened and humbled.

312 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:01pm

re: #306 CapeCoddah

NO, It does not ring a bell... Not a huge TV, movie person, but I do have my favorites.

Maybe a good rental for a rainy night sometime. Very enjoyable and maybe a tiny bit spiritual.

313 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:21pm

re: #307 eon

wow.... so that explains all the noise over there......

314 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:32pm

re: #312 MacGregor

I will check it out, thanks!

315 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:36pm

re: #305 cliffster

Why what? Why is it sad that you would think that?

Why would i be ridiculed or roughed up? I didnt state an opinion, I asked a question.

316 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:46pm

re: #259 cliffster

That seems to be missing the point entirely. Plus he seems to be saying that "selection" happens. But it selects based on what genes decided to start expressing themselves? In that case, it's not really environment selecting anything at all.

For this contention to be true, every organism on this planet would have to share the same genome, and just have different parts expressed; this is demonstrably UNtrue.

317 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:09:58pm

re: #285 MacGregor

That's a great movie. I might be scorned to say it was better than "Mr. Hollands opus" or even "What about Bob!"

Any movie with Douglas A-26s is a good movie.

Ditto any movie with Audrey Hepburn.

/yes, I actually liked Breakfast at Tiffany's.

cheers

eon

318 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:10:25pm

re: #309 Cap'n DOC

BTW - Since you are so hard to catch up with, I did not mean to imply many days ago that your patron saint was St. Polycarp.

I know; I've already said no harm,. no foul.

319 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:10:32pm

re: #316 Salamantis

For this contention to be true, every organism on this planet would have to share the same genome, and just have different parts expressed; this is demonstrably UNtrue.

There, that's better.

320 MacGregor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:10:55pm

re: #308 Kragar (proud to be kafir)Doesn't ring a bell. I'll check it out next time I go to blockbuster.

321 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:11:13pm

re: #300 Josephine

Charles is empowering his readers. That, in itself, is sufficient. He doesn't need to justify to you or anyone else the usefulness of his role or the further actions he or his readers might embark upon. He has taken on this job and we are learning from him. That's all. And that's enough.

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

322 Cap'n DOC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:11:29pm

re: #318 Salamantis

I just never caught up with you, and wanted to apologize. Thanks.

323 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:12:38pm

re: #263 reine.de.tout

"THEIR" stupid religious fairy tales is Christianity, which includes MY FAITH.

If he wants to call "their" tales "stupid religious fairy tales", then he's also talking to me, even though I have absolutely no support for the DI or "creationism".

I do not agree with him that religious beliefs are "stupid fairy tales".

I think I am allowed to disagree with him on that.

I believe that you said that you are Roman Catholic; your own church does not take the Genesis creation myth literally.

324 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:13:19pm

re: #282 Bobibutu

Knowledge is power - Babe.

Yabba Dabba Doo - Yogi Bear

325 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:13:38pm

re: #315 Wishing

Why would i be ridiculed or roughed up? I didnt state an opinion, I asked a question.

Hmm, let me answer with a question. Why did you start with, "this question might get me booted"?

326 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:23pm

re: #321 Killian Bundy

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

Other people may be interested in learning about these subjects, even though you prefer to remain ignorant.

327 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:27pm

re: #323 Salamantis

I believe that you said that you are Roman Catholic; your own church does not take the Genesis creation myth literally.

/and yet you won't link to your own essays, let the people decide

328 jcw46  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:34pm

re: #49 Charles

This should be a wake-up call for those who continue to insist that this subject is unimportant. The United States has slipped to an appallingly low level in science education, and one big reason is the widespread support for Dark Ages beliefs like creationism -- even among science teachers.

Although not named directly these reports do point out that HOW teachers are teaching and the curriculum being used are the points of failure that need more attention.

4th and 8th grade education overview.
What Are Science & Math Test Scores Really Telling U.S.?

329 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:40pm

re: #325 cliffster

Being booted is somewhat different from being ridiculed or roughed up. It removes you from the discussion, the latter two abuse you in it.

330 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:15:45pm

re: #279 Killian Bundy

Can you link your essays again?

/I neglected to bookmark them

Can you link your legal briefs?

331 Raydog[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:16:05pm
332 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:16:38pm

re: #202 Russkilitlover

I don't have kids. And I've been out of school long enough that I only hear about curriculum through third and fourth person review. Where IS creationism being taught or pushed to be taught. Most complaints I hear from parents is that the secular agenda is devastating. I have never heard about creationism in public schools or even relativity vis-a-vis DI/Evoloution. I live in So Cal and would think that this would be a battle line.

Charles, I know that you are passionate on this subject.

Long before I read about it on LGF, I read a feature article on ID in a major American magazine.

333 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:16:57pm

re: #325 cliffster

Hmm, let me answer with a question. Why did you start with, "this question might get me booted"?

actually, it was a declarative statement. Go back to the beggining of this thread and see if you don;'t think that Killian Bundy and I were for a time on the precipice of BOOTLAND

334 Jimmah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:18:31pm

re: #288 MandyManners

Tell you what: KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD.

Such a belief has NO impact on anyone unless and until someone tries to force others to believe it.

Piss off.

Notice that Salamantis is expressing his reasoned opinion, not forcing others to believe it. Are non-believers supposed to lie about how religious literalism appears to them? Are we supposed to censor ourselves out of 'respect' for sensitive believers who will tell us "KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD" if we don't?

G'night.

335 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:18:41pm

re: #321 Killian Bundy

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

Spreading knowledge!

336 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:19:03pm

re: #333 sattv4u2

actually, it was a declarative statement. Go back to the beggining of this thread and see if you don;'t think that Killian Bundy and I were for a time on the precipice of BOOTLAND

Sorry satt, my question was completely unrelated to your discussion (in which I was not involved).
I am hoping someone will at least try to answer my question though.

337 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:19:22pm

re: #288 MandyManners

Tell you what: KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD.

Such a belief has NO impact on anyone unless and until someone tries to force others to believe it.

Piss off.

Empirically untrue is empirically untrue. The literal reading of Genesis has been proven to be empirically untrue by means of both DNA and radiometric dating. Facts are stubborn things, not to be denied by asinine ad hominems.

338 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:19:26pm

re: #321 Killian Bundy

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

Not the ID perpetrators, but it helps those of us who need to be on our guard against them. I had to choose a 7th grade science book for my homeschooled son - and I was very wary about my choices due to these discussions.

339 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:19:33pm

Evening gang!

What the drinking word tonight?

340 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:20:03pm

re: #329 Wishing

Being booted is somewhat different from being ridiculed or roughed up. It removes you from the discussion, the latter two abuse you in it.

Haha, maybe so. Taken objectively, one reading that might connect the dots, perhaps inaccurately, and think that you were on one particular side of that question.

341 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:20:24pm

re: #323 Salamantis

I believe that you said that you are Roman Catholic; your own church does not take the Genesis creation myth literally.

No, it does not, neither do I. Nor do I support DI or creationism, and I have made that crystal clear over a number of months.

Cicero has posted a clarification, and I thanked him.
And so, your involvement in this is . . . ?

342 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:21:13pm

re: #340 cliffster

Haha, maybe so. Taken objectively, one reading that might connect the dots, perhaps inaccurately, and think that you were on one particular side of that question.

I asked a question. To this point no one has even attempted an answer. How about giving it a shot?

343 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:21:26pm

re: #338 DistantThunder

Not the ID perpetrators, but it helps those of us who need to be on our guard against them. I had to choose a 7th grade science book for my homeschooled son - and I was very wary about my choices due to these discussions.

Yes, and that's where these topics are helpful, to alert us so that little by little, we can individually make an impact.

344 Syrah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:21:47pm

re: #339 JCM

Evening gang!

What the drinking word tonight?

Mezcal is the word.

345 Cicero05  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:21:55pm

re: #337 Salamantis

Empirically untrue is empirically untrue. The literal reading of Genesis has been proven to be empirically untrue by means of both DNA and radiometric dating. Facts are stubborn things, not to be denied by asinine ad hominems.

"Shut up, he explained."

346 Slumbering Behemoth  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:22:09pm

re: #331 Raydog

I could not care less. Ugh.

Sure you could. You took the time to post, so you do care some. Try to care less.

347 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:22:31pm

re: #344 Syrah

Mezcal is the word.

I'm in a hurry....
Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal

Hic!

348 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:22:40pm

re: #334 Jimmah

Oh, my.

Just that. Oh, my.

(I bet you think your avatar is really neat.)

349 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:22:43pm

re: #294 musicman

Well now I just have to jump in. I believe in a God who could of done it all in six billion years, six million years, six thousand years, six hundred years, six years, six weeks, six days, six minutes or even in six seconds. The God I believe has no limits. When man tries to "out think" God is when man gets into trouble. After all I am a minister and that Bible I carry around means a whole lot to me. To me it is not a book of fairy tales. I share it with others. and let them make their own decisions.

The Word of God had it scientifically right when in Leviticus 17:11 said that the life of a creature was in the blood.

I still love this site.

The deity in which you seem to believe appears to resemble the Islamic Allah more than it does the Christian God; unconstrained by any and all logic and/or evidence. This is precisely the God-conception that Pope Benedict was criticizing in his Regensburg speech.

350 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:23:20pm

re: #297 MandyManners

I not only know that my 6 is covered but, I'm doing my best to cover others' sixes.

I ain't kickin' back 'spectin' others to do for me.

You go girl ... it takes a village .. heh.

351 Syrah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:23:21pm

re: #344 Syrah

Mezcal is the word.

Not such a good word for a drinking word. But it is good to drink.

Lets make "the" the drinking word for the night.

Anyone second the motion?

352 eon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:24:36pm

re: #347 JCM

I'm in a hurry....
Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal Mezcal

Hic!

OK, that does it for me. Just the thought of Mezcal is making my eyelids droop, and I don't even drink.

Good night, Lizards.

God keep.

cheers

eon

353 DistantThunder  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:24:38pm

My drinking word (water) is "disqualified" as in:

Gov. Sarah Palin has said that Obama's statements have disqualified him to be commander in chief.

Alleluia - truth is spoken.

354 mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:25:29pm

re: #323 Salamantis

I believe that you said that you are Roman Catholic; your own church does not take the Genesis creation myth literally.

True. But while we don't take the story literally, we do believe the Book of Genesis conveys basic truths about creation and the most important part of that is God created Heaven and Earth. All that is seen and unseen.

As St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out, Faith and reason are both sources of authority upon which beliefs can rest.

355 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:25:44pm

re: #342 Wishing

I asked a question. To this point no one has even attempted an answer. How about giving it a shot?

Hmm, my answer is, suit yourself, you believe whatever you want to believe, no skin off my neck. When I responded, I was just expressing sadness that you think you might get booted for it. I don't think people get booted from here for their opinions, as long as they're being polite. Killian, I'll go back and read through what you're talking about.

356 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:25:57pm

re: #321 Killian Bundy

And that's going to discourage these people? They don't read LGF.

/get real

Who said he's trying to discourage them?

357 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:26:45pm

re: #355 cliffster

Hmm, my answer is, suit yourself, you believe whatever you want to believe, no skin off my neck. When I responded, I was just expressing sadness that you think you might get booted for it. I don't think people get booted from here for their opinions, as long as they're being polite. Killian, I'll go back and read through what you're talking about.

Again, Cliff, I stated NO opinion. I asked a question, one that has apparently stumped the stars.

358 MandyManners  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:10pm

re: #350 Bobibutu

You go girl ... it takes a village .. heh.

The sense of entitlement is growing at a geometric rate.

359 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:16pm

re: #353 DistantThunder

My drinking word (water) is "disqualified" as in:

Gov. Sarah Palin has said that Obama's statements have disqualified him to be commander in chief.

Alleluia - truth is spoken.

When I read in the Lame Stream Media that the debate was a tied, I knew Palin mopped the floor.

I heard parts, the first question on the loan crises I thought she missed an opportunity to nail (D) hides to the barn door.

360 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:20pm

re: #327 Killian Bundy

/and yet you won't link to your own essays, let the people decide

Decide about what, exactly?

You just wish to endeavor to use cherry-picked quotes from my essays in an attempt to discredit me via ridicule, because you are an execrable anus.

361 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:40pm

re: #326 Charles

Other people may be interested in learning about these subjects, even though you prefer to remain ignorant.

Okay, I'll admit, fringe Christians want to push the Wedge agenda. It's a nonstarter in Federal courts.

/and my point is that you have no other choice, that I'm aware of, but to trust in the legal process

362 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:27:58pm

Dayum, i LOVE a good question!

363 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:28:40pm

Salamantis - here's a question for you. Your downdinging seems obsessive. For example, you downdinged me when I pointed out that you had not made any point other than saying, "because I say so". Because it was true. I asked about a subject, and you responded with "that is false". "That is false" doesn't prove anything, as I'm sure beyond any shadow of a doubt you can understand.

364 musicman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:29:12pm

re: #349 Salamantis

The deity in which you seem to believe appears to resemble the Islamic Allah more than it does the Christian God; unconstrained by any and all logic and/or evidence. This is precisely the God-conception that Pope Benedict was criticizing in his Regensburg speech.

All I am saying is that I will not put God in a box now would I ever think He is limited in what He can do. I have believed this long before I even heard the word Islam, Allah, or knew what a pope was. I love my life, I love my work, does that make me a bad person? And for clarification, I am Southern Baptist.

365 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:29:17pm

re: #362 Wishing

Dayum, i LOVE a good question!

Why?
/ ;-)

366 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:29:47pm

re: #341 reine.de.tout

No, it does not, neither do I. Nor do I support DI or creationism, and I have made that crystal clear over a number of months.

Cicero has posted a clarification, and I thanked him.
And so, your involvement in this is . . . ?

To ensure that you did not take mistaken umbrage at something that had not been said.

367 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:30:24pm

re: #365 JCM

Why?
/ ;-)

Because a properly framed question leads one to the answer.

368 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:30:55pm

re: #363 cliffster

Salamantis - here's a question for you. Your downdinging seems obsessive. For example, you downdinged me when I pointed out that you had not made any point other than saying, "because I say so". Because it was true. I asked about a subject, and you responded with "that is false". "That is false" doesn't prove anything, as I'm sure beyond any shadow of a doubt you can understand.

Wrong. I always give a reason. And I also downding posts that I think deserve it, as is the prerogative of everyone on this list.

369 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:31:05pm

re: #361 Killian Bundy

Okay, I'll admit, fringe Christians want to push the Wedge agenda. It's a nonstarter in Federal courts.

/and my point is that you have no other choice, that I'm aware of, but to trust in the legal process


No. I do have another choice, and that's to write about my opinions on this subject, and back up those opinions with facts.

Despite your non-stop attempts to portray it as wasted effort, which are becoming more and more obvious, and more and more tedious. And which lead me to seriously question your motivations.

370 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:31:36pm

re: #366 Salamantis

To ensure that you did not take mistaken umbrage at something that had not been said.

Well, thank you for your consideration, I did not take umbrage, I simply in my post disagreed that religious beliefs were "fairy tales"
Cicero posted several clarifications, and so I'm fine.
Your consideration for my tender feelings is appreciated.

371 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:32:57pm

And when Obama gets his Supreme Court picks . . .

/religion will be politically dead and there will be much rejoicing

372 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:33:33pm

re: #358 MandyManners

The sense of entitlement is growing at a geometric rate.

and that will be our downfall from within - sh*ts covered from with-ought.

It's up to us.

373 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:33:49pm

re: #233 taxfreekiller

Don Bosco as he was dying said his last words to those around him,

"See you in paradise".

374 musicman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:33:49pm

I also would say that I do not want creationism taught in public schools. It should be left to churches and or parents to teach their children.

375 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:34:09pm

Can we change the subject now?

Look, ya'll, I'm fixin' to get RICH!
Look at this great offer I just got in my e-mail:

Attention:

My name is Mr. Zinfy Lucas Mbeki I am South African man by birth and
resident in Spain.
I am a sale and account manager in a financial consultancy firm here Madrid . My Company is mandated to source for reliable investors in the World over to invest available funds in profitable business ventures.

This is why I am making this urgent contact with you and you associates, some prominent individuals in Marbella the Andalusia region of Spain made these funds available to my firm and the available fund is in US dollars amounting to millions, because of the heat they are now facing from the law for the unauthorized sales of states properties, the city mayor and deputy mayor amid allegations of money laundering is now under house arrest, for property
development offences, including building on land protected from development, manipulation of public tenders, and the acceptance of bribes as well as schemes to alter the price of municipal services.

In this sleaze scandal, which hit the southern Spanish resort city Marbella in spring 2006,and they know their chances of not going to jail is slim they have asked my firm to act swiftly on their behalf in other for them not to lose out completely and save something for their family members.Depending on your experience and proposal you will forward to us, we Will determine a suitable amount to remit to you to kick off the business you intend to invest in. You will manage this business without interference for a period of three years, after which, the profit on investment will be shared after taxation. The investment areas are not limited and may include new businesses or injection of funds into an existing firm that, of course, is profit oriented, bearing in mind that you are not authorized to invest in public Companies or Government agencies.

You can incorporate a firm fully owned by you based on the laws of your Country or
invest this money in a private Company as a shareholder. You can equally trade stock or
export and import goods as may be profitable. Fresh funds may also be invested to enlarge the business if the prospects are good.

All these are without any liability to you as this is a risk that the fund owners are ready to take; you will be required to make urgent contactWith us to finalize arrangements
on how to move the agreed funds into a Fresh account you will open with the bank where
I have lodged the funds and sign related documents that will authorize you to manage
this money on our behalf. A draft agreement will be forwarded to you to enable usFine-tune
all grey areas and ensure a smooth take off.

Please, reply to this mail and I will forward more information to you all We need is to ascertain your credibility, resourcefulness and experience.


Salamantis - here's a question for you. Your downdinging seems obsessive. For example, you downdinged me when I pointed out that you had not made any point other than saying, "because I say so". Because it was true. I asked about a subject, and you responded with "that is false". "That is false" doesn't prove anything, as I'm sure beyond any shadow of a doubt you can understand.
376 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:35:04pm

re: #354 mich-again

True. But while we don't take the story literally, we do believe the Book of Genesis conveys basic truths about creation and the most important part of that is God created Heaven and Earth. All that is seen and unseen.

As St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out, Faith and reason are both sources of authority upon which beliefs can rest.

The belief to which you are referring does not require a rejection of empirical science; the belief in the literal truth of the Book of Genesis DOES. As the Catholic Church itself acknowledged when endorsing evolution as sound, valid and solid science, and the Book of Genesis as metaphor.

377 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:35:28pm

re: #368 Salamantis

Wrong. I always give a reason. And I also downding posts that I think deserve it, as is the prerogative of everyone on this list.

"It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian."

That is offering no evidence. I've been reading your posts for a little while now and you're quite meticulous about what is backed up by evidence, and what is not. And that statement was not, and you know it. I called you out on it, and you downdinged me. Which I don't care about, of course, knock yourself out. But, perhaps the obsessive downdinging, even of reasonable posts, reveals something about how you feel about having your statements questioned in any way.

378 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:36:15pm

re: #367 Wishing

Because a properly framed question leads one to the answer.

I have toddlers at home....
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?

379 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:36:52pm

re: #361 Killian Bundy

...and my point is that you have no other choice, that I'm aware of... but to trust in the legal process

An informed, educated populace can effect change by speaking up en masse and compelling politicians and judges to take an issue seriously.

We aren't limited to being passive. Knowledge truly is power.

380 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:37:21pm

Anyway, for light there is no time, time stops at light speed, how big or old is the universe from the viewpoint of light, a real thing?

Creation is amazing and I am amazed that people could argue in such small ways about it.

Thank you for posting on this subject Charles.

381 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:37:28pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout

Why that two timing little weasel, he promised me that deal!

382 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:38:04pm

re: #378 JCM

answer: Because you are a good person.

383 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:39:14pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout

Good ole Zinfy always comes through.

384 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:39:18pm

I guess i will just save my question and ask it again at a later date...I am sure the discussion will resurface.
(maybe I wont have to ask it again)

385 Bobibutu  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:39:51pm

re: #378 JCM

I have toddlers at home....
Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why? Why?

Grist for the mill ...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

386 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:40:26pm

re: #384 Wishing

Oh, for Pete's sake.

I'll answer your brilliant question.

Our friends here on LGF who are not here with us tonight, but are rather honoring the Sabbath: Are u suggesting that they have been duped into believing in the God of the Sabbath?

No.

387 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:41:17pm

re: #377 cliffster

"It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian."

That is offering no evidence. I've been reading your posts for a little while now and you're quite meticulous about what is backed up by evidence, and what is not. And that statement was not, and you know it. I called you out on it, and you downdinged me. Which I don't care about, of course, knock yourself out. But, perhaps the obsessive downdinging, even of reasonable posts, reveals something about how you feel about having your statements questioned in any way.

You apparently did not understand the force of my sentence. If all genes existed in all genomes since the beginning of terrestrial life, then all animals would also have had to appear at all times when they could have lived in an existing ecology (since that would have been the environmental cue for their genes to express). But they demonstrably have not. E.g., no rabbit fossils have been found in PreCambrian strata, even though they could have eaten existing plants and survived in the ambient temperature range.

388 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:41:32pm

re: #369 Charles

No. I do have another choice, and that's to write about my opinions on this subject, and back up those opinions with facts.

Despite your non-stop attempts to portray it as wasted effort, which are becoming more and more obvious, and more and more tedious. And which lead me to seriously question your motivations.

It's your blog and I'm honored to comment here.

/how about we wait and see whether it roots in Louisiana?

389 musicman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:03pm

re: #380 Ojoe

Anyway, for light there is no time, time stops at light speed, how big or old is the universe from the viewpoint of light, a real thing?

Creation is amazing and I am amazed that people could argue in such small ways about it.

Thank you for posting on this subject Charles.

Amen, especially after seeing Bryce Canyon and Zion National park last Monday! Spectacular! Could of been created in one day or over millions of years. My pictures do not do justice to what could be seen in person.

390 mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:06pm

re: #376 Salamantis

I have two passions for volunteering. One is teaching in a science program for elementary school kids in Detroit public schools (all African American kids). The other is teaching Religious formation to 8th graders at my Parish (all white suburbanite kids). I wish I could bring the two groups together because the kids are more alike than they are different and I think it would be good for them to get to know each other better rather than rely on public perceptions.

Never would I bring Religion into the science class. Not in a million years. But I do like to talk about evolution in the Formation class. You might be surprised how many kids there never learned the Church does not believe Genesis is not the story of creation. Heck, I tell the kids to educate their parents.

391 Josephine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:08pm

Good night, folks.

Keep fighting the good fight, Charles.

392 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:36pm

re: #386 Charles
Well excellent, Charles, because that would be a very untenable position to take!

393 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:37pm

re: #379 Josephine

An informed, educated populace can effect change by speaking up en masse and compelling politicians and judges to take an issue seriously.

We aren't limited to being passive. Knowledge truly is power.

/say hello to Obama

394 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:42:44pm

re: #333 sattv4u2

actually, it was a declarative statement. Go back to the beggining of this thread and see if you don;'t think that Killian Bundy and I were for a time on the precipice of BOOTLAND

I don't know, seems like you might be being a bit jumpy. There were lots of posts disagreeing with you, but I didn't see anything ominous. Maybe I'm wrong.

395 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:43:28pm

re: #387 Salamantis

You apparently did not understand the force of my sentence. If all genes existed in all genomes since the beginning of terrestrial life, then all animals would also have had to appear at all times when they could have lived in an existing ecology (since that would have been the environmental cue for their genes to express). But they demonstrably have not. E.g., no rabbit fossils have been found in PreCambrian strata, even though they could have eaten existing plants and survived in the ambient temperature range.

Right. You just now explained your position and provided evidence. Before, you just made a statement and backed it up with nothing. See the difference?

396 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:43:35pm

re: #379 Josephine

An informed, educated populace can effect change by speaking up en masse and compelling politicians and judges to take an issue seriously.

We aren't limited to being passive. Knowledge truly is power.

Knowledge is power, and if it weren't for LGF, many people would be less knowledgeable about a number of issues, not just ID.

For everyone you've ever enlightened, Charles- thank you.

397 mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:44:08pm

re: #390 mich-again

Sorry. One too many nots there. Sparky Anderson must have taken over my keyboard.

398 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:44:53pm

re: #381 JCM

Why that two timing little weasel, he promised me that deal!

LOL!
Guess I'd better jump on it pronto, then, eh?

399 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:45:37pm

re: #395 cliffster

Right. You just now explained your position and provided evidence. Before, you just made a statement and backed it up with nothing. See the difference?

My mistake was in assuming that everyone here, including you, possessed enough knowledge to be able to discern why my short statement was a conclusive refutation of the concept.

400 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:45:50pm

re: #388 Killian Bundy

It's your blog and I'm honored to comment here.

/how about we wait and see whether it roots in Louisiana?

It has already rooted in Louisiana. They passed a stealth creationist bill, and it is now law. The book that's the subject of this post is intended to jump into the hole created by this law. I do not intend to just wait around until it does.

You have a choice. You can either put up with the posts on this subject, which are NOT going to stop, or you can continue to snipe away. Sniping away and attempting to dismiss the concerns that people have on this subject is probably not a good idea, but it's your choice.

401 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:46:21pm

re: #398 reine.de.tout

LOL!
Guess I'd better jump on it pronto, then, eh?

I am sorry to report that a good friend of mine fell for that, and it cost him 5 grand, at a really bad time. It is a kind of funny story, I will tell it some time

402 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:47:36pm

re: #383 jaunte

Good ole Zinfy always comes through.

and in perfectly written English, LOL! I love the way those things are written. They crack me up.

403 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:47:50pm

Both of our current competing Presidential tickets are thankfully on-target with this issue: we can't advance if our kids believe science is fake.

/That's just (my) theory and I'm sticking to it

404 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:49:09pm

If they have not been duped, then PERHAPS they are on to something, eh?

405 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:49:20pm

re: #402 reine.de.tout

I keep a collection in my email folders.

406 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:49:22pm

re: #394 cliffster

I don't know, seems like you might be being a bit jumpy. There were lots of posts disagreeing with you, but I didn't see anything ominous. Maybe I'm wrong.

There's only one "posts" opinion that decides. As for the others, as Alfred E Newman said,, What ,, Me Worry?

407 brojohn777  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:49:35pm

HI, off subject here but an interesting video on how we got into this finacial mess...I have not personally did a fact check, and it may be a swift boat attack on obama, but it sure makes interesting viewing.
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
enjoy!

408 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:50:05pm

re: #396 Sharmuta

Knowledge is power, and if it weren't for LGF, many people would be less knowledgeable about a number of issues, not just ID.

For everyone you've ever enlightened, Charles- thank you.

Count me in that group. And bringing that point together with the one about getting booted - why would Charles post articles about this sort of thing if he didn't want people who disagree to speak up?

"I think you're right"
"I, too, think you're right"
"I think you're right as well"

Seems like that would get kind of old after a while.

409 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:50:07pm

re: #404 Wishing

If they have not been duped, then PERHAPS they are on to something, eh?

Whatever.

410 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:50:13pm

re: #398 reine.de.tout

LOL!
Guess I'd better jump on it pronto, then, eh?

I can't decide which deal sounds better, increasing the size of my *ahem* or a piece of this treasure trove. Of course there's that land deal in Florida, I just can't decide.

411 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:50:20pm

re: #400 Charles

It has already rooted in Louisiana. They passed a stealth creationist bill, and it is now law. The book that's the subject of this post is intended to jump into the hole created by this law. I do not intend to just wait around until it does.

You have a choice. You can either put up with the posts on this subject, which are NOT going to stop, or you can continue to snipe away. Sniping away and attempting to dismiss the concerns that people have on this subject is probably not a good idea, but it's your choice.

It is indeed rooted in Louisiana. The Act specifically mentions "supplemental materials".

C. A teacher shall teach the material presented in the standard textbook
6 supplied by the school system and thereafter may use supplemental textbooks
7 and other instructional materials
to help students understand, analyze, critique,
8 and review scientific theories in an objective manner, as permitted by the city,
9 parish, or other local public school board unless otherwise prohibited by the
10 State Board of Elementary and Secondary Education.

And the book that is the subject of this post is indeed the book that will become the "supplemental textbook" here.

412 mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:51:31pm

I don't have a problem with any people who while their short lives away trying to prove there is no God. After all, billions of people people throughout history have spent their entire lives chasing rabbits to no end. Have at it I say. I just hope they treat others well along the way.

413 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:51:32pm
414 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:51:34pm

I will go off on a tangent here.... and my intent is not to tick anyone off for the pure sake of it.

Knowledge is not power.

Knowledge is information in books.... on blogs.... wherever. A static quantity.

Knowledge is outside the self.

Learning, on the other hand, is an internal thing that each of us must figure out. To me, learning is the act of figuring out what to do with knowledge.... how to use it.... or not.

To me, learning is power.

Now, if we want to introduce a Supreme Power.... fine.

In that case, Learning is power.

415 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:51:47pm

re: #401 CapeCoddah

I am sorry to report that a good friend of mine fell for that, and it cost him 5 grand, at a really bad time. It is a kind of funny story, I will tell it some time

That can't possibly be a funny story, I'm sorry your friend lost 5 grand, but really, fortunate I guess that it wasn't more.

416 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:52:11pm

re: #400 Charles

It has already rooted in Louisiana. They passed a stealth creationist bill, and it is now law. .

/and yet there's no Federal lawsuit, the ACLU is hovering like a vulture, they're paying attention

417 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:53:07pm

re: #401 CapeCoddah

I am sorry to report that a good friend of mine fell for that, and it cost him 5 grand, at a really bad time. It is a kind of funny story, I will tell it some time

That's sad. Scammers are a particularly noxious breed.

418 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:53:08pm

re: #399 Salamantis

My mistake was in assuming that everyone here, including you, possessed enough knowledge to be able to discern why my short statement was a conclusive refutation of the concept.

You're too smart to believe that. The article said, "the genes were there the whole time" You said, "no they were not". C'mon now.

419 mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:53:29pm

re: #401 CapeCoddah

I am sorry to report that a good friend of mine fell for that, and it cost him 5 grand, at a really bad time. It is a kind of funny story, I will tell it some time

Your friend and his money were destined to part ways eventually. Jeesh. I find it hard to believe that anyone could be that gullible.

420 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:53:52pm

re: #404 Wishing

If they have not been duped, then PERHAPS they are on to something, eh?

What they are NOT onto is the empirical truth of the metaphorical and mythic notion that God breathed life into millions of species in 6 days 6000 years ago, then rested on the 7th. Because that notion, when taken literally, is indeed empirically untrue.

421 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:55:54pm

re: #416 Killian Bundy

/and yet there's no Federal lawsuit, the ACLU is hovering like a vulture, they're paying attention

The posts are not going to stop. If you want to continue to be a snarky pain in the ass, and repeat this garbage endlessly, you're making a choice.

422 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:56:21pm

Him losing the money was not funny, but, it was a perfect storm of other things thrown in that just made the day, and, as he is like a brother to me, the idiot, I can tell you I told him it was a scam, I warned him many times. I showed him proof on websites set up by folks who had been scammed. So, it sucked, but, he had plenty of warning. I think he may still be hoping that 2 big metal boxes of cash will be delivered to his front porch any time now. His wife and I still chuckle over that one when I ask her if they got it yet.

423 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:56:42pm

re: #389 musicman

The mystic Julian of Norwich was with God in a vision & he showed her this little round thing & she held it in her hand, it was the size of a hazelnut; she asked what it was and God said it was all that was made. She was amazed it did not vanish it was so small. God said it lasts and ever shall last because he loved it.


Well I can believe that, and all the photos from NASA too.

424 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:56:58pm

re: #408 cliffster

I happen to believe in God and accept the veracity of evolution both.

I cherish the Constitution, that my faith is allowed to me, and yours to you. That the government will not force a religious belief upon us or our posterity.

If people want to believe in ID- that is their personal choice. Where I draw the line is pushing this onto other people's children via a public school science classroom. I will teach my children what I believe and I will not allow a group of fraudulent liars and con men to take that right away from me or my fellow Americans.

425 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:57:26pm

re: #418 cliffster

You're too smart to believe that. The article said, "the genes were there the whole time" You said, "no they were not". C'mon now.

I said that they were not because no one had ever discovered a rabbit fossil from the PreCambrian (or, in fact, anything like it; anything like it meaning the fossils of mammals from way before they evolved). As I previously elucidated, that was reason enough, for those who had a passing knowledge of the subject.

426 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:57:41pm

re: #421 Charles

without bad, there can be no good..... :)

427 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 8:58:39pm

re: #426 WindHorse

Now that's dualism.

428 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:01:29pm

re: #421 Charles

The posts are not going to stop. If you want to continue to be a snarky pain in the ass, and repeat this garbage endlessly, you're making a choice.

Well, I certainly don't wish to annoy you.

/you don't need the added aggravation

429 musicman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:01:33pm

re: #423 Ojoe

I love those pictures too! Blows me away how from a distance it is all so beautiful, no flaws, no violence.

430 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:01:37pm

re: #425 Salamantis

I said that they were not because no one had ever discovered a rabbit fossil from the PreCambrian (or, in fact, anything like it; anything like it meaning the fossils of mammals from way before they evolved). As I previously elucidated, that was reason enough, for those who had a passing knowledge of the subject.

Wrong, you said, "It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian" and that's all. Scroll back up and look for yourself. I happen to agree with your statements. But that doesn't mean that "It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian" is anything besides, "because I say so".

431 mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:02:54pm

re: #422 CapeCoddah

..as he is like a brother to me, the idiot, I can tell you I told him it was a scam, I warned him many times.

Before there was an internet, my Dad's brother fell for the ridiculous tax evading scheme of investing in master tracks of music recordings. Uncle ___ eventually ended up with a huge bill from the IRS and a semi truck full of worthless 8 track tapes of no talent ass clown bands. I am not making that up. My dad tried to warn him many times that it was going to end bad. Too good to be true and all.

Scammers, like every other creature, evolve.

432 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:03:15pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

I happen to believe in God and accept the veracity of evolution both.

I cherish the Constitution, that my faith is allowed to me, and yours to you. That the government will not force a religious belief upon us or our posterity.

If people want to believe in ID- that is their personal choice. Where I draw the line is pushing this onto other people's children via a public school science classroom. I will teach my children what I believe and I will not allow a group of fraudulent liars and con men to take that right away from me or my fellow Americans.

Me too. You might want to go back and reread what I said, though - I was pointing out that it doesn't make sense for people to think they are going to get booted for having an opposing view. Why would Charles put articles like this out there if he didn't want discourse about it?

433 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:04:05pm

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Parody?

Or the real deal?

Blue Shirts, we already know about the blue shirts.

434 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:04:47pm

re: #420 Salamantis

What they are NOT onto is the empirical truth of the metaphorical and mythic notion that God breathed life into millions of species in 6 days 6000 years ago, then rested on the 7th. Because that notion, when taken literally, is indeed empirically untrue.

Ok, so let me understand here: They have not been duped, but our Jewish friends are home honoroing the Sabbath, which is a myth and a metaphor, correct?

435 mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:05:15pm

re: #424 Sharmuta

I couldn't have said that any better. I agree wholeheartedly.

436 Palandine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:05:24pm

Ted Nugent's on for the hour on the repeat of Glenn Beck on CNN Headline News (11 pm central).

I want him for Secretary of the Interior in the McCain-Palin adminstration. As a sportsman, he knows about stewardship of nature.

437 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:06:51pm

re: #433 JCM

wow.

438 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:07:06pm

re: #289 Wishing

This question may get me booted, but i will ask it anyway:
Our friends here on LGF who are not here with us tonight, but are rather honoring the Sabbath: Are u suggesting that they have been duped into believing in the God of the Sabbath? You know Creator God and all that? "In six days God created the heaven and the earth and on the seventh day he rested; therefore you will keep the Sabbath."
Am honestly curious if you see them as foolish for honoring the *seventh day* of creation as a rest day.

I'm Jewish and I see no conflict between spirituality and science. Jewish religious leaders see science as an extension of understanding the world in which we live in. It's not a either/or proposition where we must either believe in science or that G-d commanded us to rest on the 7th day (a literal reading of the Old Testament). We can use science to explain the world around us, and that religious teachings help us learn what is inside our hearts and soul - to help us understand and reach for a higher goal and enlightenment.

439 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:07:33pm

re: #430 cliffster

Wrong, you said, "It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian" and that's all. Scroll back up and look for yourself. I happen to agree with your statements. But that doesn't mean that "It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian" is anything besides, "because I say so".

No, it is precisely the statement that 'the genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian' that constituted my reason. You apparently lacked the understanding to comprehend the force of this reason until I further explained it to you, after which you understood and agreed. Your initial ignorance on this issue is neither my responsibility nor my fault.

440 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:07:38pm

re: #435 mich-again

Thanks, Mich! That means a lot to me.

441 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:07:52pm

re: #433 JCM

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Parody?

Or the real deal?

Blue Shirts, we already know about the blue shirts.

I am very skeptical about this video. I would warn against taking it at face value.

442 Cicero05  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:08:10pm

re: #375 reine.de.tout


There's some really hilarious trails of 419 scams and responses at Quatloos by a guy who has WAY too much time on his hands.

443 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:08:49pm

Hey all y'all - really late to the party tonight, and I'm not feeling so well, BUT - I did install FireFox 2 the other day and today, my default Browser which is Maxthon, just a shell over IE, started acting up again, so I switched to FF 2 (where LGF is my homepage) and although I was "logged in" I didn't have the same size type face - so I logged in again, refreshed the page and everything was fine on the first page. Then I came here and - again smaller type face even though I was logged in, so I hit log in again and refresh again and everything is fine now - regrettably I could only "import" my fav's from IE not from Maxthon! Rats.
Anyone out here have a good grasp on FF 2 ?

444 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:09:07pm

re: #438 lawhawk

I'm Jewish and I see no conflict between spirituality and science. Jewish religious leaders see science as an extension of understanding the world in which we live in. It's not a either/or proposition where we must either believe in science or that G-d commanded us to rest on the 7th day (a literal reading of the Old Testament). We can use science to explain the world around us, and that religious teachings help us learn what is inside our hearts and soul - to help us understand and reach for a higher goal and enlightenment.

I couldnt agree more. Both are valid SIMULTANEOUSLY.

445 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:09:59pm

re: #432 cliffster

I'm glad we agree.

446 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:10:44pm

re: #433 JCM

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

Parody?

Or the real deal?

What.
The.
Hell.
Was.
That?

447 Lynn B.  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:10:50pm

re: #187 Cicero05

Reading Timmer's review, it really strikes you just how cynical and intentionally deceptive the Discovery Institute types are. They have to know that their pet theory isn't accepted by any legitimate part of the scientific community because their purported description of the scientific landscape needs to be so deliberately edited. If they gave a balanced view of their subject, ID would be laughed out of the classrioom and they know it.

The really nasty thing about these Discovery Institute frauds is their willingness to sacrifice the science educations of students at the altar of their stupid religious fairy tales. They're perfectly happy to have students go away with the false idea that science in general is confused, uncertain and never to be trusted, and that one crank's crackpot theory is just as worthy of respect as the consensus of the legitimate scientific community. Why wouldn't a student just decide that nobody really knows anything and science has no inherent value to society as a means for uncovering truth?

These are bad people with a deviously harmful agenda.

I see that this comment has generated some bad blood here and that's unfortunate, first because Cicero05 has made it clear that his reference to "stupid religious fairy tales" was to the agenda of the DI and not to religion in general and second because he brings up an issue of vital importance that is overlooked by some here.

The DI is not only "perfectly happy to have students go away with the false idea that science in general is confused, uncertain and never to be trusted...," but in fact that is their declared ultimate goal, i.e., to eradicate the existing "naturalistic" foundation of science and replace it with a faith-based or Bible-based anti-materialistic framework that will reshape Western civilization (and science) as we know it. Coincidentally, that agenda ends up closely resembling the agenda of the Islamist fundamentalist that want to return civilization to the "golden age" of the 7th century. So the parallels that Charles has been trying to draw here go well beyond a correspondence in approaches to creationism.

The public schools are a hugely important battleground in this war, and I certainly don't mean to suggest otherwise, but it would be foolish to assume that the DI really cares all that much whether it succeeds near term in getting its curriculum introduced because the school board battles are just a front to get its PR in front of as many people as possible. Their strategy is to find ways to get into the news, to worm their way into the minds and hearts of as many bodies as possible. So, Killian, whether the courts keep striking them down is of little concern to them and little (but some) comfort to me. Every case they lose gets them headlines and wins over a few more adherents. And they're convinced that, ultimately, that's all it will take, like water wearing down the rock. They're convinced that they will, in that way, achieve a critical mass that no court or Constitution can oppose.

448 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:12:04pm

re: #441 Charles

I am very skeptical about this video. I would warn against taking it at face value.

It's very over the top isn't it? To much so.

449 Spirit93  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:12:43pm

re: #443 realwest

Sorry to hear your not feeling so well.
I might be able to help you with FF.
Can you tell me why you installed version 2? FF3 has been out for some time now.

450 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:13:41pm

re: #434 Wishing

Ok, so let me understand here: They have not been duped, but our Jewish friends are home honoroing the Sabbath, which is a myth and a metaphor, correct?

If they wish to honor God, any weekday will do. And in fact, the Jewish Sabbath and the Christian Sabbath (for most of them, anyway) fall on different weekdays. They could even do it every 6 days, or every 8.

There are astronomical reasons for the length of a week, however; the seven day week is the most likely length of days that it is because the moon cycles every 28 days, and thus four weeks equals one lunar cycle.

See:
The Seven Day Circle: The History and Meaning of the Week
by Eviatar Zerubavel
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

451 Cognito  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:13:51pm

For heaven's sake. The Asian markets are tanking.

Why? Job prospects in the US? Are we that entangled?

452 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:14:08pm

re: #443 realwest

RW! Sorry you are not feelin' so hot tonite.

Glad you are here tho.

453 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:14:21pm

re: #446 Racer X

What.
The.
Hell.
Was.
That?

I think it's a fake, intended to draw right-wing bloggers into posting about it, and then using those posts to discredit criticism of the real Obama youth video (the one produced by that 'singforchange' group). And if they can lure some right-winger into posting something they can construe as 'racist' in response to the video, all the better.

There is a LOT of this disinformation crap going on in this election. I've reached the point where I distrust every tip I'm receiving unless I know the person who sent it.

454 Syrah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:14:26pm

re: #451 Cognito

For heaven's sake. The Asian markets are tanking.

Why? Job prospects in the US? Are we that entangled?

Yes.

455 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:14:55pm

re: #439 Salamantis

No, it is precisely the statement that 'the genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian' that constituted my reason. You apparently lacked the understanding to comprehend the force of this reason until I further explained it to you, after which you understood and agreed. Your initial ignorance on this issue is neither my responsibility nor my fault.

Actually, it's you who lacks the humility to realize you were wrong. It's a stupid, petty argument anyways, so I'm not going to waste my time on it anymore. The point is quite simple, and if you were to put a few brain cycles in it you'd realize you're wrong. But you clearly lack the humility to ever second guess anything you ever think, and I feel sorry for you.

456 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:15:26pm

NEA Teachers Have Become Re-Educators

/no problem, yeah, I know it's all bull[expletive deleted[

457 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:15:40pm

re: #390 mich-again

You're a good man. Bless your find.

458 Mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:16:00pm

re: #441 Charles

I am very skeptical about this video. I would warn against taking it at face value.

There is no good reason to be skeptical of that video. I have spent a lot of time in classrooms in a number of public schools in Detroit, getting to know lots of kids with big aspirations but no idea how to make them come real. To me, that video looks very legitimate. They need a hero and it looks like they found one. They aren't the enemy. They just don't know any better.

459 sparrowlake  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:17:09pm

re: #434 Wishing

Ok, so let me understand here: They have not been duped, but our Jewish friends are home honoroing the Sabbath, which is a myth and a metaphor, correct?

Who gave you the right to speak for your "Jewish friends", you obtuse, presumptuous simpleton?

460 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:17:20pm

re: #453 Charles

I think it's a fake, intended to draw right-wing bloggers into posting about it, and then using those posts to discredit criticism of the real Obama youth video, produced by that 'singforchange' group. And if they can lure some right-winger into posting something they can construe as 'racist' in response to the video, all the better.

There is a LOT of this disinformation crap going on in this election. I've reached the point where I distrust every tip I'm receiving unless I know the person who sent it.

Good policy.

461 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:17:20pm

re: #450 Salamantis

If they wish to honor God, any weekday will do. And in fact, the Jewish Sabbath and the Christian Sabbath (for most of them, anyway) fall on different weekdays. They could even do it every 6 days, or every 8.

There are astronomical reasons for the length of a week, however; the seven day week is the most likely length of days that it is because the moon cycles every 28 days, and thus four weeks equals one lunar cycle.

See:
The Seven Day Circle: The History and Meaning of the Week
by Eviatar Zerubavel
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

Thank you for the link, Salamantis; but i think the Sages of Israel would disagree with your statement that *any day would do*.
Have you read this work, or just passing on a recommendation?

462 oh_dude  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:17:25pm

Read the whole thing?

Zzzzzzzz.

463 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:17:32pm

re: #455 cliffster

Actually, it's you who lacks the humility to realize you were wrong. It's a stupid, petty argument anyways, so I'm not going to waste my time on it anymore. The point is quite simple, and if you were to put a few brain cycles in it you'd realize you're wrong. But you clearly lack the humility to ever second guess anything you ever think, and I feel sorry for you.

As I do for you, but with far better reason. You seem to be one of those rare individuals whose skull seems impermeable to even the most forceful whack from a cluebat, and who willfully persists in confusing a lack of understanding with a lack of explanation.

464 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:18:05pm

re: #449 Spirit93
Hey hi Spirit93 - I downloaded 2 instead of 3 because I'd heard from quite a few folks out here that there were serious problems with FF 3. (which was only relase this past June). And I gotta tell ya I only went to FireFox in the first place to avoid problems that have developed with my Maxthon browser!
And on top of that, FF 2 doesn't even LOOK like either Maxthon or IE - seems to be missing a lot of toolbar stuff and it appears that to find anything or go anywhere (other than your Favorites) you have to use Google!

465 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:18:34pm

re: #461 Wishing

Thank you for the link, Salamantis; but i think the Sages of Israel would disagree with your statement that *any day would do*.
Have you read this work, or just passing on a recommendation?

I read it, I own it, and it is extremely good.

466 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:18:40pm

re: #453 Charles

"There is a LOT of this disinformation crap going on in this election."

It's scary how many people don't have the ability to discern this. I am truly frightened for the future.

The left is screaming so loudly that the right is fascist nobody notices that the left is marxist. Didn't the author of Liberal Fascism point out that communists hate fascists.

467 Cartman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:18:45pm

re: #451 Cognito

For heaven's sake. The Asian markets are tanking.

Why? Job prospects in the US? Are we that entangled?

Probably. That, plus the fact that the worlds financial markets would appear to be almost totally driven by raw, knee-jerk emotionalism at this point. Sort of like the Democrat party, in many ways. ;)

468 Cognito  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:19:36pm

re: #441 Charles

I am very skeptical about this video. I would warn against taking it at face value.

Actually I think that bad boy is totally real. Sadly.

It's really not that far from other sorts of stomp groups, or whatever they're called. It's just that this one centers (creepily) on Obama.

469 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:19:45pm

re: #462 oh_dude

See comment 21 for a handy summation.

470 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:19:49pm

re: #442 Cicero05

There's some really hilarious trails of 419 scams and responses at Quatloos by a guy who has WAY too much time on his hands.

Thanks! I love stuff like that . . . I've bookmarked it for proper perusal.

471 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:19:51pm

re: #459 sparrowlake

Who gave you the right to speak for your "Jewish friends", you obtuse, presumptuous simpleton?

Zoiks, sparrow, why the attack? Did u read up-thread at all?

472 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:20:07pm

re: #453 Charles

I think it's a fake, intended to draw right-wing bloggers into posting about it, and then using those posts to discredit criticism of the real Obama youth video, produced by that 'singforchange' group. And if they can lure some right-winger into posting something they can construe as 'racist' in response to the video, all the better.

Damn, that's a good point. And one I never would have thought of. Whether you're right or not, the fact that people even think that way is a sign that nastiness has taken on exponentially higher levels of complexity.

473 Mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:20:07pm

re: #457 Basho

Thanks. But tell us,who is that in your avatar?

474 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:20:29pm

re: #453 Charles


There is a LOT of this disinformation crap going on in this election.

Ain't that the truth.

475 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:20:35pm

re: #465 Salamantis

I read it, I own it, and it is extremely good.

Excellent then...I will pick up one of the used copies!

476 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:20:43pm

re: #447 Lynn B.

I see that this comment has generated some bad blood here and that's unfortunate, first because Cicero05 has made it clear that his reference to "stupid religious fairy tales" was to the agenda of the DI and not to religion in general and second because he brings up an issue of vital importance that is overlooked by some here.

The DI is not only "perfectly happy to have students go away with the false idea that science in general is confused, uncertain and never to be trusted...," but in fact that is their declared ultimate goal, i.e., to eradicate the existing "naturalistic" foundation of science and replace it with a faith-based or Bible-based anti-materialistic framework that will reshape Western civilization (and science) as we know it. Coincidentally, that agenda ends up closely resembling the agenda of the Islamist fundamentalist that want to return civilization to the "golden age" of the 7th century. So the parallels that Charles has been trying to draw here go well beyond a correspondence in approaches to creationism.

The public schools are a hugely important battleground in this war, and I certainly don't mean to suggest otherwise, but it would be foolish to assume that the DI really cares all that much whether it succeeds near term in getting its curriculum introduced because the school board battles are just a front to get its PR in front of as many people as possible. Their strategy is to find ways to get into the news, to worm their way into the minds and hearts of as many bodies as possible. So, Killian, whether the courts keep striking them down is of little concern to them and little (but some) comfort to me. Every case they lose gets them headlines and wins over a few more adherents. And they're convinced that, ultimately, that's all it will take, like water wearing down the rock. They're convinced that they will, in that way, achieve a critical mass that no court or Constitution can oppose.

Excellent comment. Yes, they're playing a game of inches, refining their strategy with every defeat, hiding their agenda a little bit better each time, and coming back relentlessly with new deceptive approaches. This is a serious enemy, and they've got enormous funding from shadowy fundamentalist groups. They're not going to stop, and ignoring them and discounting the threat is stupid and dangerous.

477 Cartman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:20:46pm

re: #453 Charles

Astroturfing grown pandemic.

478 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:21:44pm

re: #453 Charles
Oh yeah, I agree both about that video and about all the disinformation being disseminated (frequently I think with the MSM being all too willing accomplices).
For one thing, IF this video was "real" Obama isn't so stupid that all of these "trainees" would be Black - it would be an integrated group. And it was just poorly done, to boot.

479 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:22:03pm

re: #459 sparrowlake

Who gave you the right to speak for your "Jewish friends", you obtuse, presumptuous simpleton?

Perfect. You said what I wish that I had.

I am a proud Jew, and am seething at that post.

480 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:22:12pm

re: #467 Cartman
Hey Cartman my friend - would you kindly check your e-mail ?!

481 Charles  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:22:39pm

Disclaimer: I don't know for a fact the video is fake. It may be real. But it's no less a trap.

482 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:23:40pm

re: #453 Charles

....I am wondering.... which is worse..... that these young men actually believe this crap about Obama.....

-or, that they have been enlisted to create this bogus video to entrap anyone who might not appreciate the "real meaning".

-just a weird set of thoughts in my head (as usual).

483 Cognito  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:23:54pm

re: #453 Charles

I believe it's real. It was apparently shot at this school. Check out the mission statement.

484 Cartman  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:24:37pm

re: #480 realwest

Hey Cartman my friend - would you kindly check your e-mail ?!

I'm afraid to. :)

I have not replied to you, and I'm sorry. Will so so ASAP, buddy.

485 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:25:46pm

re: #481 Charles

Disclaimer: I don't know for a fact the video is fake. It may be real. But it's no less a trap.

If it's real let's hope it's merely youthful exuberance and nothing more.

486 Globular Cluster[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:25:50pm
487 Cognito  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:26:27pm

re: #483 Cognito

I believe it's real. It was apparently shot at this school. Check out the mission statement.

(To be clear on the mission statement -- the bit about celebrating the students' ethic culture falls somewhat in line with the stomp style popular at many black colleges. Thus the 'alpha omega / alpha omega' intro.)

488 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:27:39pm

re: #459 sparrowlake

re: #479 NY Nana

Before you skin me alive pls see my #289.

489 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:28:34pm

....hey Globular Cluster.... do us all a favor and run along outside and play hide and go fuck yourself.....

....hon.

490 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:30:02pm

I smell a fatwa.........

After a late-night conversation about their desire to make everything taste like bacon, Esch invented Bacon Salt, a 0-calorie, 0-fat, vegetarian, kosher seasoning that makes everything taste like bacon.

491 Palandine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:30:18pm

re: #487 Cognito

(To be clear on the mission statement -- the bit about celebrating the students' ethic culture falls somewhat in line with the stomp style popular at many black colleges. Thus the 'alpha omega / alpha omega' intro.)

Kansas City. Sigh. I knew the rot was deep here in the People's Republic of St. Louis, but I didn't know the public schools were goofy there too.

With all the bad attention Missouri's getting this year, I feel like Floridians must feel like all the time--you want to yell that really it's a wonderful state.

I love Missouri, and I hope never to leave, but between the truth squads and this (and the Rams and Cardinals, but I digress), we're not covering ourselves in glory right now.

492 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:30:30pm

Paint it blue and get it the [expletive deleted] out of here!

/middle of the night, sleeping with your woman, all purpose Fraternity advice

493 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:30:32pm

re: #483 Cognito
Well I know I'm older than dirt, but I have to say that some of those young men sure looked older than kids used to when I was in grades 5-9 !
And, again, why would Obama want that video out there featuring an all Black group of trainees' or "troops" or whatever?

494 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:31:47pm

re: #490 JCM

I want some! [Link: www.baconsalt.com...]

495 itellu3times  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:32:32pm

Just saw PBS "Washington Week" with Gwen Ifill, and did they watch any of the same debate that I did? They saw virtually no faults in either side. Good grief. But that didn't stop them from making snotty remarks about Palin (even the WSJ reporter lady seems well off Palin), and worshipful ones about Biden.

Deaf, dumb, and blind.

Maybe evolution has shifted into reverse.

496 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:32:45pm

re: #457 Basho

PIMF, find = kind

497 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:33:24pm

re: #475 Wishing

Excellent then...I will pick up one of the used copies!

Here's an excellent site for your cheap used book needs:

[Link: used.addall.com...]

498 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:33:33pm

re: #463 Salamantis

As I do for you, but with far better reason. You seem to be one of those rare individuals whose skull seems impermeable to even the most forceful whack from a cluebat, and who willfully persists in confusing a lack of understanding with a lack of explanation.

Good strategy. When you're wrong about something, start throwing out insults. Brilliant!

I understand what you were saying. You are saying, "The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian" implies all the facts that you later elaborated. What I'm saying is, you were refuting what the article said. And that article had it's own set of analyses. Albeit bad ones. So, in a nutshell, here is how our exchange started:

Article: The genes for rabbits did existed during the Precambrian
Sal: The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian

You sorta need to provide some elaboration, in that situation. Go ahead and argue if you want. Certainly, your ego would never allow you to believe you might have been a little off on something.

Like I said, petty argument. But it's insulting to what clearly is your impressive intellect to refuse to ever be wrong.

499 Cognito  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:33:58pm

re: #493 realwest

Well I know I'm older than dirt, but I have to say that some of those young men sure looked older than kids used to when I was in grades 5-9 !
And, again, why would Obama want that video out there featuring an all Black group of trainees' or "troops" or whatever?

Nah. They look like pretty young high schoolers, to me. Ninth grade is very possible.

And I'm sure there are many, many Obama-centric videos out there that he'd rather not have people see.

500 kuchuklambat  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:34:20pm

sorry if i repeat the obvious:
1. the conflict between ID and evolutionary biology, geology, etc. is not that they tell different stories. This misconception comes from the unfortunate fact-based science education in this country (learn the narrative and regurgitate). The difference is that one narrative is produced by the scientific method (reproducible experiments and observations tied by a narrative that's pared by Occam's razor) and the other one is not. It is the method that ought to be taught in school rather than the stories, but that takes longer.
2. the conflict between science and religion is also an illusion, like, say, a conflict between newtonian mechanics and quantum field theory -- they apply to different realms. Or, different scale and focus of the same realm, if you like.

501 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:34:27pm
502 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:34:36pm

re: #449 Spirit93
Um, did you by any chance see my #464? Was it soo stupid you didn't bother to answer?
I know I'm a tech-tard so if you think it would take too much time to explain, I'll understand!

503 Syrah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:35:29pm

re: #495 itellu3times

Just saw PBS "Washington Week" with Gwen Ifill, and did they watch any of the same debate that I did? They saw virtually no faults in either side. Good grief. But that didn't stop them from making snotty remarks about Palin (even the WSJ reporter lady seems well off Palin), and worshipful ones about Biden.

Deaf, dumb, and blind.

Maybe evolution has shifted into reverse.

The truth about Devolution.

We are all Devo!

504 Cognito  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:35:41pm

re: #501 JCM

I don't think David Horsey like's Sarah.

*no surprises*

Setting aside political differences, I've got to admit that's a pretty funny cartoon, though.

505 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:35:51pm

re: #501 JCM

Screw Horsey and the Horse he rode in on....

McCain-Palin 2008!

/you go girl!

506 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:36:23pm

re: #499 Cognito
Well I'll bow to your youth or at least knowledge of how big highschoolers are these days (or at least 9th graders) but who could've shot this video and "leaked" it out there without Obama's knowledge?

507 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:36:32pm

re: #499 Cognito

Nah. They look like pretty young high schoolers, to me. Ninth grade is very possible.

And I'm sure there are many, many Obama-centric videos out there that he'd rather not have people see.

Hell, the "big name" music video's are creepy enough....
Obama Obama Obama!

508 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:36:42pm

re: #473 Mich-again

Hopefully it's the Japanese poet, Basho, whose name means banana tree after the gift his students gave him.

509 Mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:37:27pm

re: #481 Charles

It may be real. But it's no less a trap.

Agreed that its a trap. But to me its not a question of if the video is real or not. Its a question of why the GOP has walked away from so many people who would be so much better off if they cut loose from the Democratic Party ties that bind them into virtual slavery. The Dems don't give a hoot about those kids as individuals. They only view the urban youth as a future loyal voting bloc and they spend all their energy keeping them in the camp through misinformation and demagoguery.

You and everyone else might be surprised how ripe those kids are for converting to a Conservative agenda for the USA. The Democratic party is like a sculling team with one guy barking out commands and eight guys rowing. Forget about the Obamas and Bidens at the helm who ride for free. Concentrate on the poor saps with the oars in their hands.

510 Spirit93  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:38:27pm

re: #464 realwest

Hey hi Spirit93 - I downloaded 2 instead of 3 because I'd heard from quite a few folks out here that there were serious problems with FF 3. (which was only relase this past June). And I gotta tell ya I only went to FireFox in the first place to avoid problems that have developed with my Maxthon browser!
And on top of that, FF 2 doesn't even LOOK like either Maxthon or IE - seems to be missing a lot of toolbar stuff and it appears that to find anything or go anywhere (other than your Favorites) you have to use Google!

I'm not sure what problems they were telling you about - I understand that there were some in the beta, and very early release but I'm not aware of any now. I've been using it (on XP) for a couple of months, no problem. What OS are you using? In any case, there's nothing wrong with FF2 but that will make it a little tougher for me to help you since that's not what I am using now.

You mentioned - "seems to be missing a lot of toolbar stuff and it appears that to find anything or go anywhere (other than your Favorites) you have to use Google!" How else did you go anywhere in IE? There is something called a "links toolbar" in older versions of IE, is that what you are referring to? FF has something similar if you want it (View>Toolbars>Bookmark Toolbar).

BTW, the strength of FF is the plug-ins that are available. There are thousands of these, they are easy to install. Many of them ad tools to the toolbar.

511 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:38:32pm

re: #504 Cognito

Setting aside political differences, I've got to admit that's a pretty funny cartoon, though.

He can be pretty good (Two Pullet Surprises), he's big time lib. He has a penchant for equating conservatives with Nazis.

512 Cognito  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:38:40pm

re: #506 realwest

Well I'll bow to your youth or at least knowledge of how big highschoolers are these days (or at least 9th graders) but who could've shot this video and "leaked" it out there without Obama's knowledge?

I'd guess the teacher or another student. Apparently it was shot a year or so ago.

513 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:38:47pm

re: #506 realwest

It was probably PROUDLY leaked...... (my opinion). Which is even a sadder statement on the whole situation. Imagine the guidance that these young men are getting.

Imagine (even sadder) that this is the best thing that they have been exposed to in their lives.

One must say "What Bullshit."

514 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:38:50pm

re: #501 JCM
Well what do you expect from the Seattle Least Intelligencer anyway?!

515 Palandine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:39:00pm

re: #501 JCM

I don't think David Horsey like's Sarah.

*no surprises*

The always wise James Lileks points out that the first sign that someone is a bad artist is that they can't draw hands. He can't. Bad artist with sexist ideas this Horsey is.

I'm only 37 years old, but I long for the days when beautiful, aesthetically pleasing art comes back into style. I've always found that e-mail that's passed around about the communist platform a little fake sounding, but I do believe there's a huge fad in the art community, for almost a century now, to make ugly, meaningless art.

516 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:40:28pm

re: #476 Charles

Excellent comment. Yes, they're playing a game of inches, refining their strategy with every defeat, hiding their agenda a little bit better each time, and coming back relentlessly with new deceptive approaches. This is a serious enemy, and they've got enormous funding from shadowy fundamentalist groups. They're not going to stop, and ignoring them and discounting the threat is stupid and dangerous.

Maybe you should start petitioning states to force churches to dedicate 10 minutes of each sermon to preaching about evolution. Would that make any more sense?

And the thing is, I wouldn't want a preacher teaching evolution; preacher is more than likely totally unqualified to do so and would be negative about it. By that same token, why would someone want a science teacher teaching any aspect of their religion - that science teacher is very likely to be unqualified and negative about it.

517 itellu3times  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:40:31pm

re: #377 cliffster

"It's a false idea. The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian."

That is offering no evidence.

There is no offering evidence for a negative hypothesis, so you have made no cogent observation here, unless you show that there *were* rabbit genes in the precambrian.

If I say, "there were no Toyotas in the Precambrian", rules of evidence and rhetoric aside, are you really going to argue that there were, or that there is any kind of a real issue here?

518 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:40:34pm

re: #498 cliffster

Good strategy. When you're wrong about something, start throwing out insults. Brilliant!

I understand what you were saying. You are saying, "The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian" implies all the facts that you later elaborated. What I'm saying is, you were refuting what the article said. And that article had it's own set of analyses. Albeit bad ones. So, in a nutshell, here is how our exchange started:

Article: The genes for rabbits did existed during the Precambrian
Sal: The genes for rabbits did not yet exist during the Precambrian

You sorta need to provide some elaboration, in that situation. Go ahead and argue if you want. Certainly, your ego would never allow you to believe you might have been a little off on something.

Like I said, petty argument. But it's insulting to what clearly is your impressive intellect to refuse to ever be wrong.

The article never particularly addressed the existence or nonexistence of rabbits in the Precambrian. It referred to a general theory, which I refuted via a specific counterexample (and a famous one, btw: JBS Haldane said, when asked what empirical evidence could possibly falsify evolution, replied that discovering fossil rabbits in the PreCambrian would present perhaps insurmountable difficulties for the theory).

I have no problem admitting when I am wrong, with one caveat: I actually have to be wrong before I will admit as much. You apparently cannot admit the same, even when it is demonstrably the case.

519 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:41:18pm

re: #515 Palandine

...it isn't called "art" anymore.... now, it is referred to as "shart".

/I dated a liberal art chick once..... really..... (no - really)

520 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:41:23pm

re: #506 realwest

Well I'll bow to your youth or at least knowledge of how big highschoolers are these days (or at least 9th graders) but who could've shot this video and "leaked" it out there without Obama's knowledge?

I think you may be overestimating Zero's knowledge / power / control.

521 Basho  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:42:00pm

re: #508 Basho

Noooo! Now everyone knows the secret origin of my name.

522 jaunte  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:42:14pm

re: #515 Palandine

Tom Wolfe wrote an interesting little book about that:
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

523 esch  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:42:45pm

re: #490 JCM

I smell a fatwa.........

Ok that caused a triple-take on my part...

524 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:43:12pm

re: #506 realwest

real, different ethnic groups mature at different rates. African children can reach puberty a full 2 years earlier than white children. So, the young men in that video might very well look older than you are used to seeing.

I didn't click the video.

525 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:43:21pm

re: #514 realwest

Well what do you expect from the Seattle Least Intelligencer anyway?!

Hey! Real!

How you been?

Least Intelligence, I've been a subscriber for years and haven't paid for a paper. I've been on the free introductory offer, every time they call to get me to pay I say I'll cancel and they extend the free offer.

Padding the subscriber numbers me thinks.

526 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:43:30pm

re: #516 cliffster

Bye!

527 Irene NYC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:43:59pm

real,

Didja get my emails?

528 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:44:04pm

re: #421 Charles

The posts are not going to stop. If you want to continue to be a snarky pain in the ass, and repeat this garbage endlessly, you're making a choice.

/this is garbage?

529 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:44:06pm

re: #523 esch

Ok that caused a triple-take on my part...

Not often you see "kosher" and "bacon" in the same sentence!

530 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:44:55pm

re: #510 Spirit93
Ah, thank you for that. I'm using XP also, and IE 6 (actually Maxthon which Charles once told me is just a shell over IE) as a browser and the FF 2 just looks - well, kinda bare in the tool bar area.
However - if y'all think 3 is ok and you're using XP then maybe I'll try downloading that instead.
Oh, btw, in FF 3, under File, Import do you only get to choose imports from IE?

531 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:45:12pm

re: #517 itellu3times

There is no offering evidence for a negative hypothesis, so you have made no cogent observation here, unless you show that there *were* rabbit genes in the precambrian.

If I say, "there were no Toyotas in the Precambrian", rules of evidence and rhetoric aside, are you really going to argue that there were, or that there is any kind of a real issue here?

No, it's a petty and stupid argument. I agree that rabbit genes and rabbit bones were both absent when the sun rose and the sun set on the precambrian.

Or were you asking about Toyotas? I don't think they were there either.

532 esch  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:45:28pm

re: #529 JCM

Not often you see "kosher" and "bacon" in the same sentence!

That and the

Esch invented Bacon Salt...

merited a WTF on my part

533 Palandine  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:45:51pm

re: #519 WindHorse

...it isn't called "art" anymore.... now, it is referred to as "shart".

/I dated a liberal art chick once..... really..... (no - really)

Richard Serra's "Twain," which has disgraced St. Louis since 1982. It's covered with grafitti and smells of homeless guy pee.

I'm not against modern art--the Arch is still modern and lovely at its age--but so much of modern art is garbage designed to offend the senses.

534 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:46:18pm

re: #515 Palandine

It's true, hands are extremely difficult to draw. I always had trouble with noses--to draw a nose properly, the artist really only draws the shadows. Very difficult.

Even harder when you are trying to draw the muzzle of a black labrador retreiver.

535 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:46:27pm

re: #526 Racer X

Bye!

Why? Did you read what I said?

536 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:47:56pm

re: #446 Racer X

Well the alpha-omega stuff is borderline

but at least the kids are setting some goals

maybe not on the strongest foundation though

and I feel pretty sad that they need Obama to set some high goals

did not their families already encourage them?

Anchoress has posted that video with some of her comments

The Anchoress

537 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:48:44pm

re: #524 ggt
well perhaps ggt, but I went to fully integrated schools in what was then called Junior high (grades 7,8 & 9) and high school. Indeed if you combined the Latino-Americans and the Black Americans, then I was in the minority and don't recall any of us - of all "ethnic groups" - getting quite that large in the 9th grade!

538 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:48:50pm

re: #488 Wishing

I did read it and still feel the same way about it.

/Skinning people is not anything I would care to do, but thanks anyhow.

It reminds me too much of the Shoah. I am of the 'Never forget, never forgive' group, as I watch Jew hate ratchet up now, as Charles has so often shown in the neo-nazi threads.

As Jews, there is no single path that we must follow, as LawHawk pointed out. My family is traditional Conservative. There are many branches of Judaism....

539 CapeCoddah  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:49:26pm

Obama's HOPE uncovered:
There is nothing so well known as that we should not expect something for nothing - but we all do and call it Hope. ~Edgar Howe

540 esch  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:50:18pm

Kosher Bacon Salt...

Yeah I think my IRL friends would agree that is the kind of wacky thing I'd think up.

541 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:50:27pm

re: #535 cliffster

I read it. I just think it unwise to poke Charles.

542 Mich-again  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:51:06pm

Keep in mind that the Religious far right hates Sarah Palin because they think she should stay home and take care of her family instead of working as either Governor of Alaska or worse yet the Veep. If you doubt that go search the topic yourself. Warning though. You may be shocked at what you find. They hate Palin more than SNL or MSNBC does.

543 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:51:32pm

re: #526 Racer X

Perhaps my statement is easily misconstrued. Let me say it like this: asking science class to teach any aspect of religion is about as sensible as asking a preacher to teach evolution.

Not only that, but the teacher would do a piss poor job of teaching religion, just as the preacher would likewise probably screw up the evolution lesson.

544 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:52:03pm

re: #527 Irene NYC
No Irene - I haven't had an e-mail from you in I don't know how long!
When did you send it (or them) do you recall? Have you changed your e-mail addy at all?

545 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:52:29pm

re: #537 realwest

People, in this country anyway, are getting larger. "They" did some realigning of clothing sizes a few years ago and found that the majority of women are size 14, it used to be size 8. Average shoe size for a women is now size 9, it used to be size 7.

Better pre-natal care (less smoking) and better nutrition (less soft drinks in the baby bottle), I believe were the reasons cited.

"They" say that eating meat during childhood determines if a person is going to grow to their full potential height. I have to wonder if kids are getting more meat (less fillers).

546 Cognito  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:53:15pm

re: #541 Racer X

I read it. I just think it unwise to poke Charles.

Maybe I completely misread that, but it seemed to me that cliffster was agreeing with Charles... The second person 'you' might have been an unfortunate choice, but I think his point is that science teachers shouldn't be talking religion.

547 Irene NYC  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:53:55pm

real,

I just sent you 2 emails and yes, I was wondering why my earlier email wasn't answered. I'll go through LGF and see if it arrives that way.
;)

548 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:54:26pm

re: #541 Racer X

I read it. I just think it unwise to poke Charles.

well - I make the mistake of thinking that the use of irony is obvious and it is not always so.

again, though, there is usually lots of heated discussion on these threads, and the same people taking the other side generally are back the next time to fight again.

549 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:54:46pm

re: #542 Mich-again

would this be the FDLS types in Texas and the full body scarf muslim types? The same ones that are big into polygamy, child rape and creationism?

550 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:55:06pm

re: #545 ggt

People, in this country anyway, are getting larger. "They" did some realigning of clothing sizes a few years ago and found that the majority of women are size 14, it used to be size 8. Average shoe size for a women is now size 9, it used to be size 7.

Better pre-natal care (less smoking) and better nutrition (less soft drinks in the baby bottle), I believe were the reasons cited.

"They" say that eating meat during childhood determines if a person is going to grow to their full potential height. I have to wonder if kids are getting more meat (less fillers).

Fat (animal) is absolutely necessary for early brain development. Vegan's feeding their infants a vegan diet are stunting brain development.

551 Wishing  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:55:19pm

re: #538 NY Nana

Thanks for at least reading the original question...and a foillowup from later down the thread:
re: #404 Wishing

If they have not been duped, then PERHAPS they are on to something, eh?

There are many branches of Judaism, agree, and please rest assured I was doing/saying nothing to offend any of them.

552 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:55:47pm

re: #542 Mich-again

Keep in mind that the Religious far right hates Sarah Palin because they think she should stay home and take care of her family instead of working as either Governor of Alaska or worse yet the Veep. If you doubt that go search the topic yourself. Warning though. You may be shocked at what you find. They hate Palin more than SNL or MSNBC does.

How do they feel about Obama?

553 Lynn B.  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:55:49pm

re: #546 Cognito

Maybe I completely misread that, but it seemed to me that cliffster was agreeing with Charles... The second person 'you' might have been an unfortunate choice, but I think his point is that science teachers shouldn't be talking religion.

FWIW, I got the same impression. ?/?/?

554 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:55:53pm

re: #527 Irene NYC

AH! YES I did receive them just now - haven't read 'em yet, cause I'm gonna turn it soon, but will read and get back to you tomorrow!
Thanks!

555 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:57:18pm

re: #550 JCM

I know! The amount of "soccer moms" I know that give their toddlers NO FAT milk when they are weaned amazes me. They are so worried about obesity they monitor fat intake of TODDLERS!

556 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 9:58:15pm

re: #542 Mich-again

Keep in mind that the Religious far right hates Sarah Palin because they think she should stay home and take care of her family instead of working as either Governor of Alaska or worse yet the Veep. If you doubt that go search the topic yourself. Warning though. You may be shocked at what you find. They hate Palin more than SNL or MSNBC does.

I reckon that's a demographic McCain is not going after. Maybe there are a lot of people in Michigan that hold that opinion...

557 Intrepid  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:01:58pm

I like the fast-fingered guitar playing man.

Can we have some of him?

Please?

558 Spirit93  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:02:27pm

re: #530 realwest

Ah, thank you for that. I'm using XP also, and IE 6 (actually Maxthon which Charles once told me is just a shell over IE) as a browser and the FF 2 just looks - well, kinda bare in the tool bar area.
However - if y'all think 3 is ok and you're using XP then maybe I'll try downloading that instead.
Oh, btw, in FF 3, under File, Import do you only get to choose imports from IE?

I think going to FF3 would be a good idea. You can always uninstall and go back to FF2 if there is a problem.

On my system under File>Import I have options for IE and Opera. I suspect this is system specific, those are browsers I have installed on my system. If you are concerned about importing your Maxthon favorites, I believe that is the same as your IE favorites so it shouldn't be a problem. BTW, there is a plug-in you can install (which I have and use) that will allow you to keep using your old IE (or Maxthon I think) favorites without having to import anything.

In my previous response, I assumed you had an address bar (where you can type in an address) in the toolbar. If not, you can turn it on View>Toolbars>Navigation Toolbar.

At this point, I think you should download and install FF3

559 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:02:29pm

re: #516 cliffster

Well,

And the thing is, I wouldn't want a preacher teaching evolution; preacher is more than likely totally unqualified to do so and would be negative about it. By that same token, why would someone want a science teacher teaching any aspect of their religion - that science teacher is very likely to be unqualified and negative about it.
does make sense to me but the first part of your comment was, well, no disrespect intended here, kinda silly at best and antagonistic to what Charles is and has been saying for a looooong time out here: there is no place in a public school for the teaching of ID in the science courses. IF ID is to be taught anywhere, I'd druther see it taught in a private religious institution.
560 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:03:06pm

re: #555 ggt

I know! The amount of "soccer moms" I know that give their toddlers NO FAT milk when they are weaned amazes me. They are so worried about obesity they monitor fat intake of TODDLERS!

Gah! Poor kids.

561 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:04:08pm

re: #557 Intrepid

I like the fast-fingered guitar playing man.

Can we have some of him?

Please?

Tommy Emmanuel - Guitar Boogie

562 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:05:24pm

re: #559 realwest

but the first part of your comment was, well, no disrespect intended here, kinda silly at best and antagonistic to what Charles is and has been saying for a looooong time out here

Agreed that it was a poor choice of illustrations that is easily misconstrued.

563 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:05:43pm

re: #543 cliffster
Ah, please disregard my comment #559 then!

564 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:06:20pm

re: #548 cliffster

I may have misinterpreted your comment then. The boss seemed a little testy earlier.

565 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:06:44pm

re: #558 Spirit93
OK, I'll give FF 3 a go, sometime tomorrow! I'm too tired to do it now! Thank you kindly!

566 Lynn B.  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:07:01pm

re: #476 Charles

Excellent comment. Yes, they're playing a game of inches, refining their strategy with every defeat, hiding their agenda a little bit better each time, and coming back relentlessly with new deceptive approaches. This is a serious enemy, and they've got enormous funding from shadowy fundamentalist groups. They're not going to stop, and ignoring them and discounting the threat is stupid and dangerous.

Thanks, Charles.

This is exactly why I feel these threads are so important, even though they tend to stir the pot, especially because they tend to stir the pot. It bears repeating that a number of us had no clue how serious this threat had become before reading about it here and then following links to other sources. And even then it took a while to sink in.

Gee. Seems to me there are a few other topics that have had the same wake-up-call effect on a large number of readers here.

/out

567 brojohn777  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:07:26pm

You know I went to school back in the 60's, when it was still legal to pray in school, read the ten commandments, and say the whole pledge of allegiance I learned evolution was a theory, and the creation story. It didn't kill me. I still believe that latter. I have run nuclear reactors, computer networks, went from enlisted to officer in the US Navy. There is nothing wrong with presenting both sides fairly and letting kids decide. Until evolution is proven, why not present both sides. Certainly do not teach the THEORY of evolution as fact. MTCW.

568 WindHorse  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:07:39pm

re: #545 ggt

more Ken Nordine.... less filling....

/nahhh....

569 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:07:49pm

re: #561 JCM

Thank you!

570 realwest  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:09:21pm

Well all y'all it's really late for me tonight and I've got a TON of chores to do starting fairly early in the morning, so I hope everyone has a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.


Goodnight all!

571 Intrepid  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:11:30pm

re: #561 JCM

Tommy Emmanuel - Guitar Boogie

That man must have 7 inch-long fingers! Goodness gracious, he can play that guitar!

Wonder how long his strings last until they break?

572 Spirit93  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:12:57pm

re: #550 JCM

Fat (animal) is absolutely necessary for early brain development. Vegan's feeding their infants a vegan diet are stunting brain development.

JCM, I read the article, I see them recommending fat (not necessarily animal) and human milk for infants. Did I miss something?

573 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:14:04pm

With apologies to Ben Franklin, I think beer is proof that God exists. And my opposable thumbs with which to grab the beer is proof of evolution.

574 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:14:24pm

re: #560 JCM

In the next valley over from where I live, in the olden days all the gals tried to see who could have the fattest baby.

Good night all.

575 Racer X  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:15:34pm

re: #573 cliffster

With apologies to Ben Franklin, I think beer is proof that God exists. And my opposable thumbs with which to grab the beer is proof of evolution.

I'll drink to that!

576 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:16:19pm

re: #573 cliffster

"Malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man."

A,E, Housmann, in the poem

"Terrrence this is stupid stuff"

Good night again.

577 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:16:54pm

re: #567 brojohn777

You know I went to school back in the 60's, when it was still legal to pray in school, read the ten commandments, and say the whole pledge of allegiance I learned evolution was a theory, and the creation story. It didn't kill me. I still believe that latter. I have run nuclear reactors, computer networks, went from enlisted to officer in the US Navy. There is nothing wrong with presenting both sides fairly and letting kids decide. Until evolution is proven, why not present both sides. Certainly do not teach the THEORY of evolution as fact. MTCW.

What you say is fine, in a world populated by reasonable people.

The problem is not what you propose, the problem is in the Wedge Document, and the strategy used. The proponents of ID (Intelligent Design) wish to discredit science while teaching creationism as science.

Now to be clear I'm evangelical Christian, and fully believe the Bible. But I have huge problems with the Discovery Institute and their strategy, it's bad faith. With massive unintended consequences attached.

578 NY Nana  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:17:12pm

G'nite, all. Sweet dreams.

We are having an encounter with a 2 year old grandson this afternoon, while our daughter and son in law use our car to pick up his junior bed, (*sob* *sob*...how did he get to be 2 so fast?!?!) as their car is too small. We will be off to Brooklyn.

As our late, beloved Obi-Wan always said, 'Play nice!'.

579 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:17:22pm

re: #576 Ojoe

"Malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man."

A,E, Housmann, in the poem

"Terrrence this is stupid stuff"

Good night again.

That was an anecdote well worth an extra 3 minutes awake!

580 little boomer  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:19:11pm

Way OT-Drew Homers Sox up 7-5!

581 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:20:26pm

re: #572 Spirit93

JCM, I read the article, I see them recommending fat (not necessarily animal) and human milk for infants. Did I miss something?

That's one article, I've read a number. Animal fat is more readily available for bio-synthesis in the human body, less processing required using less metabolic energy to turn the food into brain or other tissues. Especially important in children.

582 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:22:13pm

re: #567 brojohn777

You know I went to school back in the 60's, when it was still legal to pray in school, read the ten commandments, and say the whole pledge of allegiance I learned evolution was a theory, and the creation story. It didn't kill me. I still believe that latter. I have run nuclear reactors, computer networks, went from enlisted to officer in the US Navy. There is nothing wrong with presenting both sides fairly and letting kids decide. Until evolution is proven, why not present both sides. Certainly do not teach the THEORY of evolution as fact. MTCW.

Kind of new here, aren't ya'?

583 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:24:07pm

re: #576 Ojoe

"Malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man."

A,E, Housmann, in the poem

"Terrrence this is stupid stuff"

Good night again.

Nice citation!

The name of the poem is "A Shropshire Lad", though. "Terence, this is stupid stuff" is the first line of one of the cantos.

584 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:25:01pm

re: #41 jaunte

From the survey:
"Of the 25% of teachers who devoted time to creationism or intelligent design, nearly half agreed or strongly agreed that they teach creationism as a “valid scientific alternative to Darwinian explanations for the origin of species.” Nearly the same number agreed or strongly agreed that when they teach creationism or intelligent design they emphasize that “many reputable scientists view these as valid alternatives to Darwinian Theory”

[Link: biology.plosjournals.org...]

Well, at that point, those teachers are just flat LYING to their students. It's simple nowhere near true that many reputable scientists view these as valid alternatives to Darwinian theory.

There will be a tiny handful of reputable organic chemists, civil engineers, herpetologists and the like whose specialty is far from evolution and who can pursue the niche details of their profession without needing to know much of anything about evolution or DNA, and who are eccentric to the point of trooferism in their beliefs about evolution. You could count them as reputable scientists, at a stretch, as long as you didn't go on to claim that their opinions on the scientific question of the validity of evolution were generally considered reputable.

But there is no significant mass of reputable scientists who reject evolution, and not even one single solitary soul who rejects evolution, and whose rejection is deemed scientifically reputable by the general community of scientists.

No one, whose GROUNDS for rejecting evolution are deemed scientifically defensible and possibly correct. The evidence to the contrary is as overwhelming as the evidence that the earth goes around the sun. Another case where some religious leaders insisted on having it their own way, in disastrous opposition to truth, justice, reason, and ultimately, faith. For while faith is not an aspect of reason, it cannot be grounded in a defiant rejection of reason.

585 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:25:06pm

re: #579 cliffster

Here, have the whole poem ! Goodnight.

Terence, This Is Stupid Stuff

"Terence, this is stupid stuff:
You eat your victuals fast enough;
There can't be much amiss, 'tis clear,
To see the rate you drink your beer.
But oh, good Lord, the verse you make,
It gives a chap the belly-ache.
The cow, the old cow, she is dead;
It sleeps well, the horned head:
We poor lads, 'tis our turn now
To hear such tunes as killed the cow.
Pretty friendship 'tis to rhyme
Your friends to death before their time
Moping melancholy mad:
Come, pipe a tune to dance to, lad."
Why, if 'tis dancing you would be,
There's brisker pipes than poetry.
Say, for what were hop-yards meant,
Or why was Burton built on Trent?
Oh many a peer of England brews
Livelier liquor than the Muse,
And malt does more than Milton can
To justify God's ways to man.
Ale, man, ale's the stuff to drink
For fellows whom it hurts to think:
Look into the pewter pot
To see the world as the world's not.
And faith, 'tis pleasant till 'tis past:
The mischief is that 'twill not last.
Oh I have been to Ludlow fair
And left my necktie God knows where,
And carried half way home, or near,
Pints and quarts of Ludlow beer:
Then the world seemed none so bad,
And I myself a sterling lad;
And down in lovely muck I've lain,
Happy till I woke again.
Then I saw the morning sky:
Heigho, the tale was all a lie;
The world, it was the old world yet,
I was I, my things were wet,
And nothing now remained to do
But begin the game anew.
Therefore, since the world has still
Much good, but much less good than ill,
And while the sun and moon endure
Luck's a chance, but trouble's sure,
I'd face it as a wise man would,
And train for ill and not for good.
'Tis true, the stuff I bring for sale
Is not so brisk a brew as ale:
Out of a stem that scored the hand
I wrung it in a weary land.
But take it: if the snack is sour,
The better for the embittered hour;
It should do good to heart and head
When your soul is in my soul's stead;
And I will friend you, if I may,
In the dark and cloudy day.
There as a king reigned in the east:
There, when kings will sit to feast,
They get their fill before they think
With poisoned meat and poisoned drink.
He gathered all that springs to birth
From the many-venomed earth;
First a little, thence to more,
He sampled all her killing store;
And easy, smiling, seasoned sound,
Sate the king when healths went round.
They put arsenic in his meat
And stared aghast to watch him eat;
They poured strychnine in his cup
And shook to see him drink it up:
They shook, they stared as white's their shirt:
Them it was their poison hurt.
--I tell the tale that I heard told.
Mithridates, he died old.


A.E. Housemann

586 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:25:13pm

re: #583 Occasional Reader

Nice citation!

The name of the poem is "A Shropshire Lad", though. "Terence, this is stupid stuff" is the first line of one of the cantos.

"Terence, pull my finger."

587 Occasional Reader  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:27:22pm

Good night.

588 CyanSnowHawk  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:28:19pm

re: #587 Occasional Reader

weet dreams, OR.

589 Moe Katz  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:31:06pm

Lizards all lost for words?

590 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:31:12pm

re: #567 brojohn777

You know I went to school back in the 60's, when it was still legal to pray in school, read the ten commandments, and say the whole pledge of allegiance I learned evolution was a theory, and the creation story. It didn't kill me. I still believe that latter. I have run nuclear reactors, computer networks, went from enlisted to officer in the US Navy. There is nothing wrong with presenting both sides fairly and letting kids decide. Until evolution is proven, why not present both sides. Certainly do not teach the THEORY of evolution as fact. MTCW.

But you're not working in biology, botany, genetics, physical anthropology, paleontology, geology, etc....if you were, there would be reason for concern. Not that you could, if you rejected the empirical science in these fields in favor of genesis literalism.

591 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:34:34pm

re: #567 brojohn777

You know I went to school back in the 60's, when it was still legal to pray in school, read the ten commandments, and say the whole pledge of allegiance I learned evolution was a theory, and the creation story. It didn't kill me. I still believe that latter. I have run nuclear reactors, computer networks, went from enlisted to officer in the US Navy. There is nothing wrong with presenting both sides fairly and letting kids decide. Until evolution is proven, why not present both sides. Certainly do not teach the THEORY of evolution as fact. MTCW.

Please allow me to enlighten you on what constitutes a theory in empirical science; it is far from being a mere notion or whim, as it is understood in common parlance:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Excerpt:

In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it can in everyday speech. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from or is supported by rigorous observations in the natural world, or by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations, and is predictive, logical, and testable. In principle, scientific theories are always tentative, and subject to corrections, inclusion in a yet wider theory, or succession. Commonly, many more specific hypotheses may be logically bound together by just one or two theories. As a rule for use of the term, theories tend to deal with much broader sets of universals than do hypotheses, which ordinarily deal with much more specific sets of phenomena or specific applications of a theory.

Of several competing theories, one theory may be superior to another in terms of its approximation of reality. Scientific tests of the quality of a theory include its conformity to known facts and its ability to generate hypotheses with outcomes that would predict further testable facts.

592 Spar Kling  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:35:38pm

re: #160 Sharmuta

Notice it doesn't give teachers the chance, or scientists the chance to determine what is relevant, but the authors of the book. Authors whose mission it is to intentionally mislead children into disregarding the veracity of evolution. That isn't IBL, it's IBS
(Intentional Bullshit) and it's wrong- morally, intellectually, and
scientifically wrong.

Freedom of inquiry is a scary thing to some people. No, we mustn't let students think on their own! The same mantra is being bandied about politically, if you haven't noticed. The people can't be trusted. Right?

Any managed version of IBL that's supposed to lead students down a garden path is repulsive. Free IBL, or the term I prefer, the "discovery approach" is excellent for developing an inquisitive, enthusiastic learner, but it must allow true freedom of thought or it's simply another form of force-feeding information to students.

Why do you think kids in school are so bored? It wasn't until college that I was exposed to education alternatives: I took an excellent course in nuclear physics that used the "historical approach" that included all the attempts, blind alleys, and hopeful theories scientists stepped through to get to the present understanding. I had a class in computer architecture that used the a version of the discovery approach during each mid term! You had to apply what you learned to new situations, not just parrot back what the professor taught. This was tough but very rewarding! Unfortunately, most teaching occurs at the bottom of Bloom's Taxonomy.

These were some of my best, most exciting classes. Yes, freedom is a scary thing. But the alternatives simply don't work.

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

- sk

593 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:38:03pm

Potential for air traffic delays this winter.

Shortage forces up deicing fluid costs

A significant national shortage of runway deicing fluid could raise the cost of keeping airfields safe this winter for the Wayne County Airport Authority.

An ongoing mine strike in the Canadian province of Saskatchewan has reduced the materials available to produce potassium acetate, the chemical airports commonly use to deice runways, said Richard Marchi, a senior adviser for Airports Council International.

594 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:39:35pm

re: #533 Palandine

Richard Serra's "Twain," which has disgraced St. Louis since 1982. It's covered with grafitti and smells of homeless guy pee.

I'm not against modern art--the Arch is still modern and lovely at its age--but so much of modern art is garbage designed to offend the senses.

One of the UK news sites had a sidebar for this year's Turner Prize contenders. I couldn't bring myself to look. They must laugh at how they pee on Turner's good name with the trash they award that prize for.

595 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:40:15pm

Paint it blue and get it the fuck out of here,

Old fraternity wisdom.

/what do I care?re: #591 Salamantis

Paint it blue and get it the fuck out of here,

Old fraternity wisdom.

/what do I care?Paint it blue and get it the fuck out of here,

Old fraternity wisdom.

/what do I care?

/you know you want to post links to your essays. aren't you proud of them?

596 RTLM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:40:39pm

Anyone else notice the AFP idiots confusing Tina Fey for Sarah Palin ?

They're French.

597 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:42:29pm

re: #592 Spar Kling

Freedom of inquiry is a scary thing to some people. No, we mustn't let students think on their own! The same mantra is being bandied about politically, if you haven't noticed. The people can't be trusted. Right?

Any managed version of IBL that's supposed to lead students down a garden path is repulsive. Free IBL, or the term I prefer, the "discovery approach" is excellent for developing an inquisitive, enthusiastic learner, but it must allow true freedom of thought or it's simply another form of force-feeding information to students.

Why do you think kids in school are so bored? It wasn't until college that I was exposed to education alternatives: I took an excellent course in nuclear physics that used the "historical approach" that included all the attempts, blind alleys, and hopeful theories scientists stepped through to get to the present understanding. I had a class in computer architecture that used the a version of the discovery approach during each mid term! You had to apply what you learned to new situations, not just parrot back what the professor taught. This was tough but very rewarding! Unfortunately, most teaching occurs at the bottom of Bloom's Taxonomy.

These were some of my best, most exciting classes. Yes, freedom is a scary thing. But the alternatives simply don't work.

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

- sk

Yeah; let's give kids the freedom to learn astrology, alchemy, the phlogiston theory of fire, the doctrine of signatures, flat-earth geocentrism, the elan vital theory of life, etc. Not!

The classroom is not a town square into which purveyors of every nitwitted notion should be permitted to haul their soapboxes, and kids are not there so they can stock their mental shelves with every crackpot craziness ever embraced by some member of the human smorgasbord; they are there to LEARN, and furthermore, to learn what is the empirically demonstrable case.

598 JCM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:42:59pm

'night all.

It's past my bedtime!

599 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:43:14pm

re: #593 JCM

Potential for air traffic delays this winter.

Shortage forces up deicing fluid costs

Wow, didn't see that Achilles heel in the airline industry..

600 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:43:14pm

re: #596 RTLM

Anyone else notice the AFP idiots confusing Tina Fey for Sarah Palin ?

They're French.

I'd bet real American dollars that it was an intentional transposition. This is Soviet France we're talking about.

French Foreign Policy: Determine the morally correct course of action, and then do the opposite, out of spite.

601 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:44:36pm

re: #595 Killian Bundy

Paint it blue and get it the fuck out of here,

Old fraternity wisdom.

/what do I care?

Paint it blue and get it the fuck out of here,

Old fraternity wisdom.

/what do I care?Paint it blue and get it the fuck out of here,

Old fraternity wisdom.

/what do I care?

/you know you want to post links to your essays. aren't you proud of them?

Of course I am, but they do not address the topic under discussion. Aren't you proud of your legal briefs? Then why don't you post them?

602 RTLM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:44:40pm

re: #600 Pawn of the Oppressor

I'd bet real American dollars that it was an intentional transposition. This is Soviet France we're talking about.

French Foreign Policy: Determine the morally correct course of action, and then do the opposite, out of spite.

No, I don't think so.

603 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:45:26pm

re: #600 Pawn of the Oppressor

I'd bet real American dollars that it was an intentional transposition. This is Soviet France we're talking about.

French Foreign Policy: Determine the morally correct course of action, and then do the opposite, out of spite.

Nothing like being outrageously stupid to prove a point!

604 Rancher  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:45:54pm

These intelligence design threads seem to take on a life of their own. However something seems to keep everyone in check, on track, like someone guiding the discussion.

605 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:46:51pm

re: #572 Spirit93

Spirit, humans need those "10-essential" amino acids to live. Baby's need them mylenate the axons of the nervous system (brain circuitry). The 10-essential are not available without animal fat. Strict vegetarians will tell you it is. As a non-meat eater all my life --I can tell you it is very, very hard. Without dairy, it is nearly impossible. A glass of milk with every meal is sufficient.

I wouldn't risk my baby's brain and I'm the vegetarian.

606 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:47:54pm

re: #604 Rancher

These intelligence design threads seem to take on a life of their own. However something seems to keep everyone in check, on track, like someone guiding the discussion.

That's because they, unlike terrestrial species, are (more or less) intelligently designed - by their participants. At least by some of them.

607 Rancher  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:49:47pm

re: #605 ggt

We rescued a cat who's owners insisted was a vegetarian. Poor thing was thin as a rail.

608 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:50:28pm

re: #607 Rancher

IIRC, dogs can be vegetarians, cat's cannot. True predators.

609 Rancher  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:50:28pm

re: #606 Salamantis

At least by some of them.

He he.

610 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:50:46pm

re: #604 Rancher

These intelligence design threads seem to take on a life of their own. However something seems to keep everyone in check, on track, like someone guiding the discussion.

Do they go to heaven or hell when they finally die (which can take days) ?

611 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:52:07pm

re: #610 cliffster

Do they go to heaven or hell when they finally die (which can take days) ?

They end up in archive limbo...;~)

612 pat[deleted]  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:52:17pm
613 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:52:34pm

re: #601 Salamantis

Of course I am, but they do not address the topic under discussion. Aren't you proud of your legal briefs? Then why don't you post them?

Well, you know, as we've already have had at it, I'm not giving up my clients.

/you've already spilled the beans, LGF search, fess up

614 tommoon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:52:58pm

That's because they, unlike terrestrial species, are (more or less) intelligently designed - by their participants. At least by some of them.

And for some reason, this is the only place, I have found, that discuss it on a regular basis.

615 Intrepid  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:53:44pm

OT: So, is OJ Simpson going to be found guilty of armed robbery and kidnapping in Las Vegas?

616 Spar Kling  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:54:04pm

re: #191 Charles

Now the creationist shills are showing up.

Charles, I'm not a "creationist shill." I have absolutely no connection with any creationist organization, nor do I promote any such arganization openly or secretly (although I've posted links here to an interesting anti-creationist panspermia website on occasion). I consider my self a free thinker.

My skepticim regarding evolutionist orthodoxy seems to attract ad hominem attacks of the kind normally associated with talking to liberals. I admit this really surprised me, so as you can see I also post the following disclaimer on any relevant posts.

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

- sk

617 tommoon  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:54:26pm

OJ guilty.

618 pat  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:54:51pm

The OJ trial has a verdict.

619 pat  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:55:28pm

re: #617 tommoon

Tom, wow. Didn't get that yet. Cool.

620 Rancher  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:55:29pm

Guilty on about 12 charges, Simpsons buddy....

621 Intrepid  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:55:43pm

re: #618 pat

The OJ trial has a verdict.

SERIOUS? Was he G or NG?

622 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:55:47pm

re: #611 Salamantis

They end up in archive limbo...;~)

Purgatory on tape backup.

Friends, then? :P

623 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:56:01pm

re: #615 Intrepid

How can you be convicted of trying to steal your own legal property? I'm so confused on this. This smells of a set-up.

624 Rancher  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:56:25pm

Simpsons going down, hard time comming,.

625 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:56:46pm

re: #613 Killian Bundy

Well, you know, as we've already have had at it, I'm not giving up my clients.

/you've already spilled the beans, LGF search, fess up

And as I have already reminded you, you could redact your clients' names.

But the real reason that you refuse to post them is because I could most probably easily cherry-pick dense and obfuscatory passages of your clear-as-mud legalese, and rag you unmercifully with them. Just like you want to do with my essays, and as you have attempted to do multiple times in the past. Because, as I remarked before, you're an execrable anus.

626 sngnsgt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:57:17pm

OJ, guilty, guilty, guilty!

627 Outrider  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:57:49pm

OT
Jeez. I'm at my other computer, which is more powerful, but using IE vice FF. What a difference! Slow and staggering. And doesn't look near as sleek.

628 RTLM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:58:18pm

GWoT history:

Today is the 15 year mark for battle of Mogadishu.

(Black Hawk Down)


1st Special Forces Operational Detachment-Delta (Delta Force)
MSG Gary Gordon Killed defending the crew of Super Six-Four (Michael Durant) Medal of Honor (posthumously) 1
SFC Randy Shughart Killed defending the crew of Super Six-Four (Michael Durant) Medal of Honor (posthumously) 1
SSG Daniel Busch Crashed on Super Six-One and was wounded defending the downed crew Silver Star
SFC Earl Fillmore Killed moving to the first crash site Silver Star
SFC Matt Rierson Killed on October 6 , 1993 by a mortar which landed just outside the hangar

Silver Star
MSG Tim “Griz” Martin Died from wounds received on the Lost Convoy
75th Ranger Regiment
CPL Jamie Smith Died of wounds with the pinned-down force around crash site one Bronze Star with Valor Device and Oak Leaf,
Purple Heart
SPC James Cavaco Killed on the Lost Convoy Bronze Star with Valor Device
SGT Casey Joyce Killed on the Lost Convoy Bronze Star with Valor Device
PFC Richard “Alphabet” Kowalewski Killed on the Lost Convoy Bronze Star with Valor Device
SGT Dominick Pilla Killed on Struecker’s convoy Bronze Star with Valor Device
SGT Lorenzo Ruiz Killed on the Lost Convoy Bronze Star with Valor Device
160th SOAR (Nightstalkers)
SSG William Cleveland Crew chief on Super Six-Four-killed Silver Star,
Bronze Star,
Air Medal with Valor Device
SSG Thomas Field Crew chief on Super Six-Four-killed Silver Star,
Bronze Star,
Air Medal with Valor Device
CWO Raymond Frank Copilot of Super Six-Four-killed Silver Star,
Air Medal with Valor Device
CWO Clifton “Elvis” Wolcott Pilot of Super Six-One and died in crash Distinguished Flying Cross,
Bronze Star,
Air Medal with Valor Device
CWO Donovan “Bull” Briley Copilot of Super Six-One and died in crash Distinguished Flying Cross,
Bronze Star,
Air Medal with Valor Device
2nd Battalion 14th Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 10th Mountain Division
SGT Cornell Houston Killed on the rescue convoy Bronze Star with Valor Device,
De Fleury medal
PFC James Martin Killed on the rescue convoy Purple Heart

18.

629 pat  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:58:35pm

WOW. We are ahead of Drudge on the OJ verdict

630 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:58:36pm

O.J.. Simpson's going to prison for the rest of his natural life,

/Vegas jury

631 Rancher  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:58:42pm

Kidnapping, armed robbery, a bunch of other stuff. O.J.Simpson will be in jail for a long time. What comes around...

/13 years it took.

632 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:58:52pm

re: #627 Outrider

Yes, that truly does suck. I hate my old computer.

633 Moe Katz  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:58:55pm

I hope everyone has read my links to this article concerning different kinds of conservatism in America, Britain and continental Europe. It's very important to understanding the Eurofascism threads and, besides, it's going to be on the final exam.

634 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:59:17pm

Simpson needed to watch himself. He would have gotten 30 years for unpaid parking tickets.

635 sparrowlake  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:59:42pm

re: #488 Wishing

I believe that Sabbath observance is not inconsistent with the belief that public schools should provide a secular science education which includes teaching the theory of evolution AS FACT without disruptive and unnecessary religious clutter.
Your suggestion to the contrary is mischievous and smacks of the DI wedge agenda.

636 Pawn of the Oppressor  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 10:59:47pm

re: #608 ggt

IIRC, dogs can be vegetarians, cat's cannot. True predators.

My stupid cat loves eating Purple Jew leaves. We picked one up at the local garden & market place. It's a really cool looking plant. Not only does it look pimp, but it's a tasty snack for the damned cat... He begs to go out on the porch (it's gated) and if he's let outside, he'll crunch on the dead leaves for twenty minutes straight. It's like candy to him.

I tried eating a bit of one of the leaves to see what all the fuss was about, and it had no flavor. It's just crunchy.

Dunno if that counts as "vegetarian" in a cat?

637 Spar Kling  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:00:40pm

re: #131 jaunte

Did you ever find those papers you claimed to know about that supported Intelligent Design and had been 'unjustly' excluded from peer review?

Yep, I sure did. Except that's not what I was originally asked. To refresh your memory, here's the original post:

re: #595 jaunte

Can you point us to any of the papers you think have been undeservedly excluded from broad scientific scrutiny?

Well, if you insist, here are a couple:

Nature rejected paper on the weak interaction theory by Enrico Fermi
Nature rejected paper on Cerenkov Radiation by Pavel Cerenkov
Nature rejected paper on photosynthesis by Johan Deisenhofer, et al
Nature initially rejected paper on black hole radiation by Stephen Hawking

Oh, and for some reason Watson and Crick never submitted their landmark paper on DNA to peer review. Go figure.

Please understand that I'm not against peer review, but it's very well understood in the scientific community that the peer review process, while filtering out a great deal of baloney, is also subject to a great deal of prejudice. Just ask several college professors and please let us know if I'm wrong.

Oh yeah, and Ewen and Pusztai's paper on the effects of feeding genetically modified potatoes to rats? All six of the Royal Society's reviewers judged it flawed, while five out of six reviewers for The Lancet gave it favorable reviews.

- sk

638 sparrowlake  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:00:44pm

re: #621 Intrepid

SERIOUS? Was he G or NG?

Guilty as charged on all 12 counts.

639 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:00:53pm

re: #628 RTLM

would it be to PC to ask for a moment of silence on LGF in honor of these Soliders? Or all our soldiers?

640 Intrepid  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:01:08pm

re: #623 ggt

How can you be convicted of trying to steal your own legal property? I'm so confused on this. This smells of a set-up.

Nah, in NV law it doesn't matter if the property is your own. The manner in which you go to retrieve it is the question.

He took 5 goons with him - two of whom had guns - to a hotel room to "get back his shit". His voice was clearly heard on an audio tape saying "I want my shit! Don't let anybody leave!"

The fact that two goons pulled out guns drove the charges up to armed robbery level. And the "Don't let anybody leave" drove the charges up to "kidnapping".

Heh. He got caught this time. He had divvied out his sports memerabelia to his buds so the Goldman family wouldn't get it in the CA civil case after the murder trial, and the folks holding his "shit" got tired of holding it and sold it to others. And these "others" are the people who were robbed.

He's gonna go down for at least 15-20 years for this. These are serious convictions.

641 RTLM  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:01:09pm

And O.J.:

Guilty on all 12.

642 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:01:23pm

re: #625 Salamantis

And as I have already reminded you, you could redact your clients' names.

But the real reason that you refuse to post them is because I could most probably easily cherry-pick dense and obfuscatory passages of your clear-as-mud legalese, and rag you unmercifully with them. Just like you want to do with my essays, and as you have attempted to do multiple times in the past. Because, as I remarked before, you're an execrable anus.

/exactly, because your essays suck big time

643 Rancher  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:01:52pm

re: #632 ggt

I hate my old computer.

My old computer is...

My computer. :(

644 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:03:01pm

re: #616 Spar Kling

Charles, I'm not a "creationist shill." I have absolutely no connection with any creationist organization, nor do I promote any such arganization openly or secretly (although I've posted links here to an interesting anti-creationist panspermia website on occasion). I consider my self a free thinker.

My skepticim regarding evolutionist orthodoxy seems to attract ad hominem attacks of the kind normally associated with talking to liberals. I admit this really surprised me, so as you can see I also post the following disclaimer on any relevant posts.

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

- sk

Your thought on these matters seems to indeed be quite free, and unconstrained by such petty trifles as logic and empirical evidence.
You in fact seem to be playing the part of anti-science contrarian purely for contrariness' sake.

And as I remarked before, panspermia would just kick the evolutionary can a ways down the universal timeline road, and not off it, because the organisms with which the planet would have been, under the conjecture, purportedly seeded, would themselves have had to evolve somewhere - somewhere besides deep space, which could not support such a thing (no air, too cold, no liquid water, etc.).

645 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:03:25pm

re: #637 Spar Kling


Please understand that I'm not against peer review, but it's very well understood in the scientific community that the peer review process, while filtering out a great deal of baloney, is also subject to a great deal of prejudice. Just ask several college professors and please let us know if I'm wrong.

For example, scientists studying hypotheses that global warming is bunk, or at least overstated?

646 pat  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:04:30pm

re: #628 RTLM

Good Post. Salute!

647 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:04:42pm

re: #636 Pawn of the Oppressor

he might just like the "crunch."

As you know, cats are not like us. They are being from a superior dimension and have insights to the inner workings of the universe we cannot fathom.

If your Cat Overlord wants to go onto the porch to eat dead leaves, I strongly urge you to comply. He has allowed you in his realm, you don't want to do anything to compromise your preferred position.

;)

648 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:05:31pm

re: #637 Spar Kling

Well, if you insist, here are a couple:

Nature rejected paper on the weak interaction theory by Enrico Fermi
Nature rejected paper on Cerenkov Radiation by Pavel Cerenkov
Nature rejected paper on photosynthesis by Johan Deisenhofer, et al
Nature initially rejected paper on black hole radiation by Stephen Hawking

Oh, and for some reason Watson and Crick never submitted their landmark paper on DNA to peer review. Go figure.

Please understand that I'm not against peer review, but it's very well understood in the scientific community that the peer review process, while filtering out a great deal of baloney, is also subject to a great deal of prejudice. Just ask several college professors and please let us know if I'm wrong.

Oh yeah, and Ewen and Pusztai's paper on the effects of feeding genetically modified potatoes to rats? All six of the Royal Society's reviewers judged it flawed, while five out of six reviewers for The Lancet gave it favorable reviews.

- sk

And exactly how many of these papers had anything to do with justifying ID or undermining evolutionary theory?

649 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:07:54pm

re: #642 Killian Bundy

/exactly, because your essays suck big time

Actually, you lack the prerequisite education in the field with which to comprehend them, as you have already copiously proven. But you might be able to say the same thing about my capacity to appreciate the blinding brilliance of your scintillating legal briefs. So prove it, and post them.

650 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:08:09pm

re: #640 Intrepid

In Nevada it doesn't matter that it was your property to begin with? OJ aside, you can't retreive your own property? I realize that memorabilia may not warrent killing or shooting someone over, but personal property rights are near and dear to my heart.

I am so confused.

651 ggt  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:09:31pm

going upstairs ------------>

652 Intrepid  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:09:34pm

re: #650 ggt

In Nevada it doesn't matter that it was your property to begin with? OJ aside, you can't retreive your own property? I realize that memorabilia may not warrent killing or shooting someone over, but personal property rights are near and dear to my heart.

I am so confused.

Go up to the next thread! We'll hash it out there.

Lots of comments about it already.

653 rightthinking  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:12:19pm

re: #476
Dear Charles,
The venom spewed at IDers is alarming. Many truly wonderful people and truly great Americans hold the view that God is the creator and everything that exists came about because of God. This belief is neither subversive nor dangerous. What seems dangerous to me in the idea that all-out war must be waged against even the possibility of a discussion about creation vs. evolution. In my (admittedly limited) reading of scientific articles on this topic, it has always seemed that there is irrationality in the insistence that the scientific evidence supporting evolution requires the elimination of any idea of God or creator. The processes of selection themselves do not argue one way or the other. The extreme stridency of those who rail and mock and attack anyone with even a hint of leaning toward an "intelligence" behind the processes is an indication of a dogma which is, itself, a kind of religion. I like LGF when we are nice to each other. Charles, I have always liked and admired you, but your encouragement of hatred toward homeschoolers and other religious parents who teach their children that God designed and created the world is quite disappointing -- and beneath you.

654 erisldysnomia  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:13:13pm
Read it for yourself; here’s the post to which DI shill Casey Luskin is referring, with an audio clip featuring one of the Discovery Institute’s Senior Fellows, David Berlinski, boasting about their collaboration with Islamic creationists: When Disco Dudes Attack.

You know, when people try to danrather™** others (in this case, they tried to danrather™ Charles) and get caught red-handed, they really deserve to be laughed at and humiliated for the scumbags and retards they are.

**danrather™ (V): to foolishly malign others while having "I am a dirty filthy liar" written in bright red paint on your forehead.

655 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:13:15pm

re: #645 cliffster

For example, scientists studying hypotheses that global warming is bunk, or at least overstated?

Bjorn Lomberg, among others, is making himself a nice career doing exactly that. Increasingly, empirical scientists are fleeing the contention that there is a massive global warming for which humans are predominantly responsible, because the empirical evidence does not support it. And this only a few decades after the assertions first appeared.

Individual scientists might be biased for or against certain agendas, but science as a whole is self-correcting, because people get ahead in science by proving other scientists wrong. Of course, when they're not wrong, such proof is not forthcoming; this is the case with evolutionary theory.

656 sparrowlake  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:16:28pm

re: #633 Moe Katz

I hope everyone has read my links to this article concerning different kinds of conservatism in America, Britain and continental Europe. It's very important to understanding the Eurofascism threads and, besides, it's going to be on the final exam.

Interesting article. Most Eurofascists will not hesitate to turn their guns on the Jews or any other convenient scapegoats, as and when it suits their purposes. The occasional pretence to support of Israel is an ineffective and laughable ruse to neutralize Jewish and American opposition.

657 Rancher  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:18:24pm

re: #623 ggt

How can you be convicted of trying to steal your own legal property? I'm so confused on this. This smells of a set-up.

Yeah, after all a crime was committed! This was stuff that those greedy Goldman's couldn't get their hands on. These were thieves plain and simple. O.J. deputized a few buddies, two who were weapon certified, and conducted a by the book sting operation that recovered the stolen goods as well as scaring the hell. and believe me nothing is scarier than having an angry man point a weapon at your face, scaring the hell out of the perps! And he gets treated like a criminal! He should get a medal.

/Now who will hunt the golf courses for Nicole's killer.

658 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:18:26pm

re: #649 Salamantis

Actually, you lack the prerequisite education in the field with which to comprehend them, as you have already copiously proven. But you might be able to say the same thing about my capacity to appreciate the blinding brilliance of your scintillating legal briefs. So prove it, and post them.

I'm sorry, did I ever say I would post my appeal briefs or give up my clients? They're on the internet if you know where to look.

/c'mon,. you already posted your essays, why won't you do it again

659 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:18:45pm

re: #653 rightthinking

re: #476
Dear Charles,
The venom spewed at IDers is alarming. Many truly wonderful people and truly great Americans hold the view that God is the creator and everything that exists came about because of God. This belief is neither subversive nor dangerous. What seems dangerous to me in the idea that all-out war must be waged against even the possibility of a discussion about creation vs. evolution. In my (admittedly limited) reading of scientific articles on this topic, it has always seemed that there is irrationality in the insistence that the scientific evidence supporting evolution requires the elimination of any idea of God or creator. The processes of selection themselves do not argue one way or the other. The extreme stridency of those who rail and mock and attack anyone with even a hint of leaning toward an "intelligence" behind the processes is an indication of a dogma which is, itself, a kind of religion. I like LGF when we are nice to each other. Charles, I have always liked and admired you, but your encouragement of hatred toward homeschoolers and other religious parents who teach their children that God designed and created the world is quite disappointing -- and beneath you.

Empirical truth is not a popularity contest. Remember, there was a time when nearly everyone thought that the sun revolved around a flat earth. The earth didn't suddenly become round and begin moving when those opinions changed; those opinions changed because the empirical evidence showed that a spherical and spinning earth circled the sun. And evolution has via random mutation and nonrandom environmental selection has been going on for 3 1/2 billion years; it just wasn't until the last century and a half that we became aware of the fact. And the genetic, paleontological and geological evidence for it is now overwhelming.

660 Tamron  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:20:16pm

re: #591 Salamantis

Please allow me to enlighten you on what constitutes a theory in empirical science; it is far from being a mere notion or whim, as it is understood in common parlance:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Excerpt:
...
Scientific tests of the quality of a theory include its conformity to known facts and its ability to generate hypotheses with outcomes that would predict further testable facts...

However, the closer you approach the humanities, then unpredictable interactions between people put valid scientific tests on a slippery slope. For example, has anyone ever come up with an ironclad double-blind crossover study of PMS, the fear of falling, choice of a mate, appetite variations, appreciation of a good piece of art or music, road-rage, erectile dysfunction, or the 'terrible two's'? Not likely, because by its very nature, humanity is diverse and unpredictable, and thus unscientific. (Vive la Difference!)

Witness the TV series 'Numb3rs', and the constant interaction and bickering back and forth between the serious, worried scientific purists and their associates and family. None of the characters are really more correct than the other -- except maybe when serious Charlie is saving the day with his latest application of an abstract formula to the plot at hand -- but that's what makes the show so popular. The viewers can see parts of themselves, there. (That's also why LGF appeals to so many of us.)

The above-mentioned 'slippery slope' phenomenon could be what the ID folks are betting on, to assist them in their cause. The more they can blur the distinction between science and the humanities, religion, art, etc., the easier it is for them to target and trash certain elements of science itself.
.

661 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:22:41pm

re: #658 Killian Bundy

I'm sorry, did I ever say I would post my appeal briefs or give up my clients? They're on the internet if you know where to look.

/c'mon,. you already posted your essays, why won't you do it again

And no one knows where to look because they are not referenceable via your nick. Clumsy, ham-handed dodge, that.

But no, I see no reason why I should post my academic pearls just because a swine such as yourself, abjectly ignorant in the fields which they address, fields which have nothing to do with the topic of the thread, demands the privilege of attempting to trample on them.

662 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:25:48pm

re: #592 Spar Kling

Any managed version of IBL that's supposed to lead students down a garden path is repulsive. Free IBL, or the term I prefer, the "discovery approach" is excellent for developing an inquisitive, enthusiastic learner, but it must allow true freedom of thought or it's simply another form of force-feeding information to students.

Did you not read what I quoted? Managing the information is exactly what the DI "text book" is trying to do. Nothing is stopping children from asking questions about evolution, it's just that if they or you or anyone thinks that a religious answer is going to be supported in a science class, it's unacceptable from a Constitutional standpoint, as well as a scientific one.

And it's obvious to many of us that you are trying to have it both ways on these threads, so you'll have to excuse me if I don't buy into your mock indignation at being called a creationist shill.

663 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:28:13pm

re: #660 Tamron

However, the closer you approach the humanities, then unpredictable interactions between people put valid scientific tests on a slippery slope. For example, has anyone ever come up with an ironclad double-blind crossover study of PMS, the fear of falling, choice of a mate, appetite variations, appreciation of a good piece of art or music, road-rage, erectile dysfunction, or the 'terrible two's'? Not likely, because by its very nature, humanity is diverse and unpredictable, and thus unscientific. (Vive la Difference!)

Witness the TV series 'Numb3rs', and the constant interaction and bickering back and forth between the serious, worried scientific purists and their associates and family. None of the characters are really more correct than the other -- except maybe when serious Charlie is saving the day with his latest application of an abstract formula to the plot at hand -- but that's what makes the show so popular. The viewers can see parts of themselves, there. (That's also why LGF appeals to so many of us.)

The above-mentioned 'slippery slope' phenomenon could be what the ID folks are betting on, to assist them in their cause. The more they can blur the distinction between science and the humanities, religion, art, etc., the easier it is for them to target and trash certain elements of science itself.

True enough. Genetics really gives them problems, though, since the genome sequences are recheckable at will, and can be spliced into other genomes, the host organisms of which then manifest the selfsame traits that the spliced sequences were assigned, just as radiometric dating, which is also recheckable at will, and the principles of which are based upon such elementary physics facts as the constant decay rates of various radioactive isotopes, give them fits. Because they're about as hard as empirical science gets.

664 sparrowlake  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:28:36pm

re: #653 rightthinking

re: #476
Dear Charles,
The venom spewed at IDers is alarming. Many truly wonderful people and truly great Americans hold the view that God is the creator and everything that exists came about because of God. This belief is neither subversive nor dangerous. What seems dangerous to me in the idea that all-out war must be waged against even the possibility of a discussion about creation vs. evolution. In my (admittedly limited) reading of scientific articles on this topic, it has always seemed that there is irrationality in the insistence that the scientific evidence supporting evolution requires the elimination of any idea of God or creator. The processes of selection themselves do not argue one way or the other. The extreme stridency of those who rail and mock and attack anyone with even a hint of leaning toward an "intelligence" behind the processes is an indication of a dogma which is, itself, a kind of religion. I like LGF when we are nice to each other. Charles, I have always liked and admired you, but your encouragement of hatred toward homeschoolers and other religious parents who teach their children that God designed and created the world is quite disappointing -- and beneath you.

You really are full of it.
Just keep religion out of the science class.
Or shove off.

665 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:29:20pm

re: #633 Moe Katz

I hope everyone has read my links to this article concerning different kinds of conservatism in America, Britain and continental Europe. It's very important to understanding the Eurofascism threads and, besides, it's going to be on the final exam.

Thanks, Moe. I stuck that in my favorites, and I'll read it later.

666 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:30:26pm

re: #661 Salamantis

And no one knows where to look because they are not referenceable via your nick. Clumsy, ham-handed dodge, that.

But no, I see no reason why I should post my academic pearls just because a swine such as yourself, abjectly ignorant in the fields which they address, fields which have nothing to do with the topic of the thread, demands the privilege of attempting to trample on them.

Hey Charles, make me go away.

/there's only so much bull[expletive deleted] I can deal with

667 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:32:40pm

re: #666 Killian Bundy

Hey Charles, make me go away.

/there's only so much bull[expletive deleted] I can deal with

However, there seems to be no limit to the bulls*it you can deal.

668 sparrowlake  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:33:03pm

re: #666 Killian Bundy

Please stop.

669 Sharmuta  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:34:37pm

re: #653 rightthinking

Charles has done no such thing as encourage hatred of anyone here, and has stated repeatedly that belief in evolution does not preclude a belief in God or vice versa.

670 Killian Bundy  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:38:50pm

re: #668 sparrowlake

Please stop.

I'm apparently on the short list.

/now is as good a time as any

671 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:41:39pm

Salamantis - another question for you. I'm looking for a term to use and you can probably supply it. In the "softer" sciences, example cultural anthropology, there are explanations given for things that are not really hypotheses, at least not in the sense that they can be tested with a control and a variable group. Like, say, "the Mayans died off because they didn't have large mammals to herd". You can't prove or disprove that. What do you call that kind of "hypothesis"?

672 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:44:51pm

re: #671 cliffster

Salamantis - another question for you. I'm looking for a term to use and you can probably supply it. In the "softer" sciences, example cultural anthropology, there are explanations given for things that are not really hypotheses, at least not in the sense that they can be tested with a control and a variable group. Like, say, "the Mayans died off because they didn't have large mammals to herd". You can't prove or disprove that. What do you call that kind of "hypothesis"?

"Hypothesis" is a good word to describe them. "Conjecture" is another.

673 cliffster  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:48:38pm

re: #672 Salamantis

"Hypothesis" is a good word to describe them. "Conjecture" is another.

But there's got to be distinct term for something like that. Something that can't really be proven. Lots of things are logical, but not true. Most of the work done in those kinds of science fall into that category.

674 Tamron  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:49:39pm

re: #667 Salamantis

However, there seems to be no limit to the bulls*it you can deal.


FOOD FIGHT!
.

675 Salamantis  Fri, Oct 3, 2008 11:57:04pm

re: #673 cliffster

But there's got to be distinct term for something like that. Something that can't really be proven. Lots of things are logical, but not true. Most of the work done in those kinds of science fall into that category.

If it isn't true, the logic that supports it must break down somewhere, either in the assumed premises, or in the process by which conclusions are extracted from them, because truth, and only truth, 'works.' Even if the conclusions seem indeed to be the case, but the logic or grounding assumptions leading up to them are faulty or flawed, one cannot speak of truth until one can reach them via a sound and valid logic from indisputable premises.

But I have heard both 'hypothesis' and 'conjecture' used to refer to notions that make sense given what is known, and which lack explicit empirical refutation, but for which sufficient empirical evidence is lacking to validate them.

676 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 12:01:37am
677 cliffster  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 12:09:38am

re: #676 Salamantis

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Thank you.

678 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 12:11:44am

re: #677 cliffster

You're welcome.

679 ebed_melech  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 4:03:21am

Christian Schwabe's idea is extremely bizarre, and it reminds me of Sir Fred Hoyle's weird ideas about panspermia.

When the only theory materialists present is the fantasy of abiogenesis (and I see there's an article in this week's Nature is having another stab at primitive RNA forms), it doesn't overly surprise me that the alternatives people come up with are almost equally ridiculous. Abiogenesis is the supersitition of spontaneous generation by another name. The only difference is a longer timescale and much more credulity required given our present knowledge of the cell.

There are serious problems with standard evolutionary texts:
Take Douglas Futuyma's Evolutionary Biology text's reproduction of Haeckel's fraudulent embryo drawings, well after they had been exposed.

Or Mark Ridley's sweeping claim in Evolution, ‘Many of the molecular building blocks of life (such as amino acids, sugars and nucleotides) can be synthesized from a solution of simpler molecules of the sort that probably existed in the prebiotic seas if an electric discharge or ultraviolet radiation is passed through it. Once the molecular building blocks exist, the next crucial step is the origin of a simple replicating molecule’ (p. 530). But what about the unstable pyrimidine cytosine? Current paper suggest it has an extraterrestrial origin so barren are attempts to synthesise it on Earth (well they're nearly right!).

Or his equally amazing ex cathedra pronouncement, '‘It is fair to conclude that there are no known adaptations that definitely could not have evolved by natural selection. Or (if the double negative is confusing), we can conclude that all known adaptations are in principle explicable by natural selection’ (p. 263). ' Despite claiming a few lines earlier, '‘We need to keep in mind the status of the evolutionary biologist’s argument here. The series of stages may in some cases not be particularly plausible, or well supported by evidence, but the argument is put forward solely to refute the suggestion that we cannot imagine how the character could have evolved’ (p. 263). ' His reasoning shows more reliance on preference than data.

Of the generally common procedure of using homology as an argument fo evolution (classically the pentadactyl plan) when convenient, and ignoring homology (like the squid - mammalian eye) when it's not. Or the struggling with baleens (whales) as descendants of common mammalian ancestors.

680 Egfrow  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 7:05:46am
Earlier this year, the popular blog Little Green Footballs (LGF) made an outrageous attempt to link Discovery Institute to the Muslim creationist Harun Yahya (a.k.a. Adnan Oktar). Their post claimed, “Discovery Institute is in league with Islamist creationists, a fact that is indisputably true,” specifically referring to Yahya / Oktar.

At least he said you were Popular.

681 Fionn MacCumhaill  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 7:13:04am

re: #515 Palandine

The always wise James Lileks points out that the first sign that someone is a bad artist is that they can't draw hands. He can't. Bad artist with sexist ideas this Horsey is.

I'm only 37 years old, but I long for the days when beautiful, aesthetically pleasing art comes back into style. I've always found that e-mail that's passed around about the communist platform a little fake sounding, but I do believe there's a huge fad in the art community, for almost a century now, to make ugly, meaningless art.

You are not alone. Google for "Art Renewal Center", or just go [Link: www.artrenewal.org...] for lots of genuinely good art, both old and new. There is more there than just good art - there are good explanations of why good art is good and bad art is bad.

682 Charles  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 8:02:52am

And of course, here comes young earth creationist ebed_melech, to spread some more pseudo-scientific hooey and disinformation.

683 Charles  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 8:12:59am

re: #653 rightthinking

re: #476
Dear Charles,
The venom spewed at IDers is alarming. Many truly wonderful people and truly great Americans hold the view that God is the creator and everything that exists came about because of God. This belief is neither subversive nor dangerous. What seems dangerous to me in the idea that all-out war must be waged against even the possibility of a discussion about creation vs. evolution. In my (admittedly limited) reading of scientific articles on this topic, it has always seemed that there is irrationality in the insistence that the scientific evidence supporting evolution requires the elimination of any idea of God or creator. The processes of selection themselves do not argue one way or the other. The extreme stridency of those who rail and mock and attack anyone with even a hint of leaning toward an "intelligence" behind the processes is an indication of a dogma which is, itself, a kind of religion. I like LGF when we are nice to each other. Charles, I have always liked and admired you, but your encouragement of hatred toward homeschoolers and other religious parents who teach their children that God designed and created the world is quite disappointing -- and beneath you.

This is complete crap. I have not "encouraged hatred" against anyone, and I take great offense at that accusation. If your skin is so thin that you're unable to deal with legitimate criticism without whining about how mean people are being to you, you are at the wrong website.

684 MacGregor  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 8:44:23am

re: #683 Charles

I was put off by the discussion at first because some of my most heated debates with elite socialists boiled down to the invalidity of my arguments because my Judeo-Christian derived values were a result of "Magical Thinking" and atheism is the progressive answer. I took offense that my favorite web site was selling me out as a magical thinker also.

Now, I discuss this topic with my kids and they have become LGFootball fans. Without the free-flow of ideas here, they would be unarmed victims of the school's indoctrination practices.

685 Westward Ho  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 8:58:42am

re: #288 MandyManners

Tell you what: KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD.

Such a belief has NO impact on anyone unless and until someone tries to force others to believe it.

Piss off.

Doesn't change the fact that you beleive in utter horseshit.

686 claire  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 10:01:19am

re: #288 MandyManners

The Genesis literalist belief in a God who made millions of species independently and as is in six days six thousand years ago, though, is about as stupid as religious fairy tales get, if stupidity is measured by empirically provable untruth.

Tell you what: KISS MY FUCKING ASS, YOU ARROGANT BASTARD.

Such a belief has NO impact on anyone unless and until someone tries to force others to believe it.

Does the definition of "others" include one's own children?

687 Mr Secul  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 10:43:39am

re: #679 ebed_melech


There are serious problems with standard evolutionary texts:
Take Douglas Futuyma's Evolutionary Biology text's reproduction of Haeckel's fraudulent embryo drawings, well after they had been exposed.

This what Ken Miller had to say about Haeckel's Embryos.

If anybody is interested in development or what embryos really look like check this out.

The urogenital system is stranger than science fiction. The gonads develop from cells that migrate from the walls of the yolk sac. Why on earth do they do that?

688 Mr Secul  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 11:11:00am

If you want to see much better pictures of human embryos then go here.

This page is a good starting point.

If you want to see the human tail in all its glory then try this page.

Click on the 4Mb Quicktime stereo view rotation file on that page. (I don't want to link to the image directly as I think its rude to link directly to an image on a site.)

If you look at it cross-eyed then you can see the embryo in 3D. Note the fore and hind limb buds and the post anal tail. (OK the anus isn't there yet but the other links above should teach you about what you are looking at.)

689 Lynn B.  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 11:15:20am

re: #687 Mr Secul

This what Ken Miller had to say about Haeckel's Embryos.

And, more recently, in his latest book, Miller has gone well beyond merely correcting the drawings in his own books to make a broader point.

While it is indeed correct that the differences between vertebrate embryos are greater than Haeckel's drawings reflected, today we can ask a deeper and more fundamental question. We can look beyond the superficial similarities of shape and size, and examine the actual genes expressed in each part of the embryo during development. When we do this, the results are even more striking than Haeckel's own conclusions (figure 5.2*).

As modern developmental biology shows, the morphological similarities that so transfixed Haeckel actually understate the evolutionary case.

(Emphasis mine) You can find a copy of the drawing that Miller used to illustrate this point here.

690 Spar Kling  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 11:24:31am

re: #653 rightthinking

re: #476

Dear Charles,

The venom spewed at IDers is alarming. Many truly wonderful people and
truly great Americans hold the view that God is the creator and
everything that exists came about because of God. This belief is
neither subversive nor dangerous. What seems dangerous to me in the
idea that all-out war must be waged against even the possibility of a
discussion about creation vs. evolution. In my (admittedly limited)
reading of scientific articles on this topic, it has always seemed that
there is irrationality in the insistence that the scientific evidence
supporting evolution requires the elimination of any idea of God or
creator. The processes of selection themselves do not argue one way or
the other. The extreme stridency of those who rail and mock and attack
anyone with even a hint of leaning toward an "intelligence" behind the
processes is an indication of a dogma which is, itself, a kind of
religion. I like LGF when we are nice to each other. Charles, I have
always liked and admired you, but your encouragement of hatred toward
homeschoolers and other religious parents who teach their children that
God designed and created the world is quite disappointing -- and
beneath you.

There are lots of really goofy ideas on the fringes of Science. However, the major innovations in Science often come from this fringe and the scientific community understandably has had a very difficult time filtering the few credible ones from the ludicrous.

Charles, along with a majority of scientists, considers Creationism and ID as a part of this fringe. Furthermore, Charles objects to how some organizations are apparently trying to use ID as a covert mechanism to inject religion into Science Education.

Personally, I object to any indoctrination. I agree that religion, whether it's Judaism, Christianity, Islam, or any other religion should not be a part of Science Education (nor should Atheism for the same reason), but certainly be a part of religious studies or classes in philosophy.

Perhaps what rankles Charles and some other people who post here is that I have a scientific degree, I used to believe in the theory evolution, but now I believe that it's seriously flawed. As a result, I'm interested in ID, panspermia, and non-traditional Darwinistic explanations (including a much more prominent role for what have become viruses).

Unfortunately, when people sense that they are starting to lose an argument, they resort to personal abuse, calling people idiots and so on. I agree with you that such behavior is not fitting for civil discourse.

- sk

691 Lynn B.  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 11:39:49am

re: #690 Spar Kling

Perhaps what rankles Charles and some other people who post here is that I have a scientific degree, I used to believe in the theory evolution, but now I believe that it's seriously flawed.

So you say. And expect everyone here to take you at your word ... on faith, as it were. I, for one, do not. But whether you have "a scientific degree" is actually irrelevant, so that is assuredly not what rankles me (I can't speak for Charles or anyone else). Your analysis of why your comments here are given less respect than you would like appears to be just as defective as the reasoning (such as it is) behind the comments themselves.

As a result, I'm interested in ID, panspermia, and non-traditional Darwinistic explanations (including a much more prominent role for what have become viruses).

Ok. Well good luck with all that.

Unfortunately, when people sense that they are starting to lose an argument, they resort to personal abuse, calling people idiots and so on. I agree with you that such behavior is not fitting for civil discourse.

- sk

Where exactly did anyone here call you an idiot?

And who is it you think is losing the argument?

/seems pretty obvious to me

692 Mr Secul  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 11:41:08am

re: #689 Lynn B.

(Emphasis mine) You can find a copy of the drawing that Miller used to illustrate this point here.

I couldn't find the picture. Was he discussing Hox genes, Drosophila, and the like?

693 Lynn B.  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 11:46:09am

re: #692 Mr Secul

I couldn't find the picture. Was he discussing Hox genes, Drosophila, and the like?

Yes, selector gene domains. Hmmm. The picture should show up when you click that link. If it doesn't, try scrolling to page 268.

694 Charles  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 11:54:05am

re: #690 Spar Kling

Perhaps what rankles Charles and some other people who post here is that I have a scientific degree...

Oh really? What kind of "scientific degree" is that?

But that's not what "rankles" me, because frankly, I don't believe you. The reason why I don't respect your posts is simple -- because you're spouting complete nonsense, with scientific-sounding words that are intended to make gullible people believe you know what you're talking about.

695 Spar Kling  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 12:04:06pm

re: #679 ebed_melech

When the only theory materialists present is the fantasy of
abiogenesis (and I see there's an article in this week's Nature is
having another stab at primitive RNA forms), it doesn't overly surprise
me that the alternatives people come up with are almost equally
ridiculous. Abiogenesis is the supersitition of spontaneous generation
by another name. The only difference is a longer timescale and much
more credulity required given our present knowledge of the cell.

Supporters of abiogenesis like to point out that salt crystals form as water evaporates from a saturated solution, thus proving that RNA could also form this way out of some primordial soup. And because no one can prove that it is impossible, it must therefore be probable.

Take Douglas Futuyma's Evolutionary Biology text's reproduction of Haeckel's fraudulent embryo drawings, well after they had been exposed.

The recapitulation idea is actually pretty clever. It is an excellent example of the amazing predictive ability of the theory of evolution. Too bad Haeckel had to fake the drawings, later blaming his illustrator (which was himself). What's even more disappointing is that this known fakery continues to appear in Biology textbooks. But hey, it's for a good cause.

'‘We need to keep in mind the status of the evolutionary
biologist’s argument here. The series of stages may in some cases not
be particularly plausible, or well supported by evidence, but the
argument is put forward solely to refute the suggestion that we cannot
imagine how the character could have evolved" (p. 263).

Great quote! Even an evolutionist like Futuyama admits that evolutionary explanations are sometimes fairy tales.

Of the generally common procedure of using homology as an argument for evolution (classically the pentadactyl plan) when convenient, and ignoring homology (like the squid - mammalian eye) when it's not. Or
the struggling with baleens (whales) as descendants of common mammalian ancestors.

Nicely put! It's called cognitive dissonance.

Disclaimer: The statements above do not constitute an endorsement or advocacy of teaching any religion in science classes.

- sk

696 Lynn B.  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 12:04:59pm

re: #693 Lynn B.

Yes, selector gene domains. Hmmm. The picture should show up when you click that link. If it doesn't, try scrolling to page 268.

Rats! Suddenly, that page's content is "restricted." Effing Google.

If you have an Amazon account, you can go to Ken Miller's book and do a "search inside" for "embryos"
then click on the link to p. 132.

697 Mr Secul  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 12:35:39pm

re: #693 Lynn B.

If it doesn't, try scrolling to page 268.

My preview doesn't have that page. Maybe its random and I can delete my cookies and try again.

Nope, tried different browsers, tried incognito browsing. I probably need to access the page from the US.

The earliest that I can do that is November.

But if you are interested in hox genes then you may be interested in this. Its a bit old and pretty hard going to read but what it suggests is interesting.

The authors suggest that an evolutionarily conserved mechanism
underlies heart development in vertebrates and insects
and pharyngeal development in nematodes.

Our hearts have muscle cells that rhythmically contract without the need for outside stimulus. The nematode pharynx has similar cells.

It makes sense that feeding predates hearts but naturally self contracting muscle cells, developed for feeding, could later be used in developing heart tubes.

Its suggestive that vertebrate hearts develop near the fore-gut region.

In this paper the authors inserted a zebrafish heart development gene into nematode mutants that had a defective pharynx development gene. The mutants couldn't feed properly and were thin and underdeveloped. The zebrafish gene insertion produced healthy individuals from mutant stock.

698 Spar Kling  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 12:54:33pm

re: #694 Charles

Oh really? What kind of "scientific degree" is that?

But that's not what "rankles" me, because frankly, I don't believe
you. The reason why I don't respect your posts is simple -- because
you're spouting complete nonsense, with scientific-sounding words that
are intended to make gullible people believe you know what you're
talking about.

Ok, I stand corrected about what rankles you the most. :-)

As to my degree, credentials, and my present employment, I'm sure that nothing will meet with your approval, not because of my background, but simply because I question current evolutionary explanations. Thus, by definition, whatever I write must be "nonsense."

In contrast, I do respect those who I disagree with as long as they present their case honestly and with an open mind. Such exchanges are far more interesting and educational than ad hominem attacks.

Come to think of it, it would be pretty easy to write a "random flame generator" that creates short, critical posts. Or maybe it's already been done. Electronic sock puppets!

- sk

699 Lynn B.  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 12:55:26pm

re: #697 Mr Secul

Yes, you're right. See my #696 above. Maybe the Amazon link will work for you? But you need an account to access it.

I think you'd probably really enjoy this book.

700 Charles  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 12:55:43pm

re: #698 Spar Kling

In other words, you're not going to say what kind of "scientific degree" you have.

Why am I not surprised?

701 Mr Secul  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 1:04:50pm

re: #699 Lynn B.

Yes, you're right. See my #696 above. Maybe the Amazon link will work for you? But you need an account to access it.

I think you'd probably really enjoy this book.

Thanks I'm off out now but will look at it later. Have a good, afternoon(?)

702 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 2:10:34pm

re: #679 ebed_melech

Christian Schwabe's idea is extremely bizarre, and it reminds me of Sir Fred Hoyle's weird ideas about panspermia.

When the only theory materialists present is the fantasy of abiogenesis (and I see there's an article in this week's Nature is having another stab at primitive RNA forms), it doesn't overly surprise me that the alternatives people come up with are almost equally ridiculous. Abiogenesis is the supersitition of spontaneous generation by another name. The only difference is a longer timescale and much more credulity required given our present knowledge of the cell.

There's a big difference between the slow development of copying fidelity in chemical compounds and the morphing of horsehairs into worms or river logs into crocodiles.

There are serious problems with standard evolutionary texts:
Take Douglas Futuyma's Evolutionary Biology text's reproduction of Haeckel's fraudulent embryo drawings, well after they had been exposed.

You're quoting that cheesy Young-Earth Creationist site again? Jeez! And out of literally thousands of more recent precisely accurate embryological depictions, you still find the need to cling to a long-ago-exposed-by-scientists forgery?

Or Mark Ridley's sweeping claim in Evolution, ‘Many of the molecular building blocks of life (such as amino acids, sugars and nucleotides) can be synthesized from a solution of simpler molecules of the sort that probably existed in the prebiotic seas if an electric discharge or ultraviolet radiation is passed through it. Once the molecular building blocks exist, the next crucial step is the origin of a simple replicating molecule’ (p. 530). But what about the unstable pyrimidine cytosine? Current paper suggest it has an extraterrestrial origin so barren are attempts to synthesise it on Earth (well they're nearly right!).

Please link the paper to which you refer; I sincerely doubt that it is any more mainstream than many of the Disco Dewdes' 'textbook' sources.

Or his equally amazing ex cathedra pronouncement, '‘It is fair to conclude that there are no known adaptations that definitely could not have evolved by natural selection. Or (if the double negative is confusing), we can conclude that all known adaptations are in principle explicable by natural selection’ (p. 263). ' Despite claiming a few lines earlier, '‘We need to keep in mind the status of the evolutionary biologist’s argument here. The series of stages may in some cases not be particularly plausible, or well supported by evidence, but the argument is put forward solely to refute the suggestion that we cannot imagine how the character could have evolved’ (p. 263). ' His reasoning shows more reliance on preference than data.

Nope. He's simply pointing out that there is no credible counterfactual empirical evidence against evolutionary theory. Of course, there is also reams of evidence for it. No one has been able to falsify it.

Of the generally common procedure of using homology as an argument fo evolution (classically the pentadactyl plan) when convenient, and ignoring homology (like the squid - mammalian eye) when it's not. Or the struggling with baleens (whales) as descendants of common mammalian ancestors.

The point is that the evolution of light sensitive cells into eyes is such an evolutionarily useful mutational adaptation that it has happened several different times, in several different ways, thoughout the animal kingdom. And there is no struggle with whales returning to the sea; the entire transitional sequence fossil series has been discovered.

703 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 2:19:21pm

re: #690 Spar Kling

There are lots of really goofy ideas on the fringes of Science. However, the major innovations in Science often come from this fringe and the scientific community understandably has had a very difficult time filtering the few credible ones from the ludicrous.

Charles, along with a majority of scientists, considers Creationism and ID as a part of this fringe. Furthermore, Charles objects to how some organizations are apparently trying to use ID as a covert mechanism to inject religion into Science Education.

Personally, I object to any indoctrination. I agree that religion, whether it's Judaism, Christianity, Islam, or any other religion should not be a part of Science Education (nor should Atheism for the same reason), but certainly be a part of religious studies or classes in philosophy.

Perhaps what rankles Charles and some other people who post here is that I have a scientific degree, I used to believe in the theory evolution, but now I believe that it's seriously flawed. As a result, I'm interested in ID, panspermia, and non-traditional Darwinistic explanations (including a much more prominent role for what have become viruses).

Unfortunately, when people sense that they are starting to lose an argument, they resort to personal abuse, calling people idiots and so on. I agree with you that such behavior is not fitting for civil discourse.

- sk

And yet you are unable to point to a single serious flaw in evolutionary theory, any more than are the Disco Dewdes. And the influence of retroviruses (which themselves evolved) spliced into the DNA sequences of other organisms is an EXAMPLE of evolution in action, not an ALTERNATIVE to it. Plus, there is no such thing as an ID alternative, as even its proponents have admitted that there's no 'there' there; in other words, it's content-free.

704 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 2:38:54pm

re: #695 Spar Kling

Supporters of abiogenesis like to point out that salt crystals form as water evaporates from a saturated solution, thus proving that RNA could also form this way out of some primordial soup. And because no one can prove that it is impossible, it must therefore be probable.

Umm, much more complex and organic componds than mere salt crystals have been formed with chemicals and under conditions that would have obtained at the time. And you know this - or should.

The recapitulation idea is actually pretty clever. It is an excellent example of the amazing predictive ability of the theory of evolution. Too bad Haeckel had to fake the drawings, later blaming his illustrator (which was himself). What's even more disappointing is that this known fakery continues to appear in Biology textbooks. But hey, it's for a good cause.

Refer to posts #687, 688 and 689, particularly this Ken Miller quote from the last one:

While it is indeed correct that the differences between vertebrate embryos are greater than Haeckel's drawings reflected, today we can ask a deeper and more fundamental question. We can look beyond the superficial similarities of shape and size, and examine the actual genes expressed in each part of the embryo during development. When we do this, the results are even more striking than Haeckel's own conclusions (figure 5.2*).

As modern developmental biology shows, the morphological similarities that so transfixed Haeckel actually understate the evolutionary case.

Great quote! Even an evolutionist like Futuyama admits that evolutionary explanations are sometimes fairy tales.

What is happening is that evolutionary narratives are being fleshed out beased upon the available empirical evidence. Fairy tales are fantasies - like the idea that some deity breathed life and speciation into tens of millions of mudpies in the space of 6 days 6000 years ago, then ripped a rib from one of them to make it a mate (strange that this procedure doesn't seem to have been necessary for all the other lifeforms), then tossed them both out of a garden paradise because a talking snake seduced one of them into biting into a fruit that promised knowledge.

Nicely put! It's called cognitive dissonance.

It takes massive memetic filtering to ignore the meticulous transitional fossil record as regards the precursors of whales returning to the sea. Just like it takes an amazing ability to self-delude not to discern that a useful mutation could be selected for multiple times.

705 Charles  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 3:13:22pm

The usual creationists have begun dinging down this post, of course.

706 Spar Kling  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 5:03:08pm

re: #700 Charles

In other words, you're not going to say what kind of "scientific degree" you have.

Why am I not surprised?

Simple. It's because I'd like to preserve my anonymity. Otherwise it would be, "Yeah, sure say you have a degree in ________. What university did you supposedly get it from. I don't believe you unless you post your notarized transcripts, name and address, and then prove that they weren't forged--they must have been because no one who ever gratuated with a degree in one of the sciences could possibly not be an evolutionist. Besides, I don't believe you're that person, post your photo passport and fingerprints, too."

As I said, I have a degree in a science from an accredited university in the U.S., but I no longer believe in evolution as I once did, not on religious grounds but on scientific grounds.

This might be hard for you to accept, but there are people who question evolutionary explanations with similar and better credentials than mine.

As I've repeatedly said here, I'm opposed to teaching religion in science classes under any guise, or indoctrination in any subject. I am in favor of breaking the death-grip Darwin has on scientific investigation in this field, and for scientists to feel free to investgate new or modified mechanisms for origins and speciation.

- sk

707 Basho  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 5:20:10pm

re: #706 Spar Kling


As I said, I have a degree in a science from an accredited university in the U.S., but I no longer believe in evolution as I once did, not on religious grounds but on scientific grounds.

You reject evolution on scientific ground... but accept ID as an alternative explanation...

You're a BS artist. There are no scientific grounds to reject evolution. It's an observable fact, though there is rich scientific debate regarding the specifics. I'm sure, though, that when you got that degree in science you took an Ultra Advanced Super Duper Evolution course in between your classes of Nuclear Physics and Computer Architecture, so who I am to criticize you.

708 Charles  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 5:32:52pm

re: #706 Spar Kling

Simple. It's because I'd like to preserve my anonymity.

Right. Your "anonymity."

Snort.

What you're really afraid of: if you pick a "scientific degree" out of thin air, someone might start asking you questions about that field, and you wouldn't be able to answer.

You don't really think you're kidding anyone, do you?

709 Basho  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 5:37:33pm

re: #698 Spar Kling


As to my degree, credentials, and my present employment, I'm sure that nothing will meet with your approval, not because of my background, but simply because I question current evolutionary explanations. Thus, by definition, whatever I write must be "nonsense."

And yet, you like to throw out little clues as to what exactly those are. You're like The Riddler...

"Well, I think we should teach all the alternative theories to evolution. After all that's what we did in my course of Theoretical Particle Physics and in my Applied Organic Bioengineering class. By the way, my Master's Degree was in another field. Can you guess what it was? ;-) Now, I'm going to write some advanced computer programs that are just so easy for me to do, because they are so much fun!"

710 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 5:58:23pm

re: #706 Spar Kling

Simple. It's because I'd like to preserve my anonymity. Otherwise it would be, "Yeah, sure say you have a degree in ________. What university did you supposedly get it from. I don't believe you unless you post your notarized transcripts, name and address, and then prove that they weren't forged--they must have been because no one who ever gratuated with a degree in one of the sciences could possibly not be an evolutionist. Besides, I don't believe you're that person, post your photo passport and fingerprints, too."

What you're really afraid of is that a Lizard who actually has a degree in the field you mention will quiz you on it. Or else you fear being ridiculed after identifying your degree and having to shamefacedly acknowledge that it has nothing to do with evolutionary theory.

As I said, I have a degree in a science from an accredited university in the U.S., but I no longer believe in evolution as I once did, not on religious grounds but on scientific grounds.

And yet you haven't been to present any such grounds. At least not any credibal and empirical ones.

This might be hard for you to accept, but there are people who question evolutionary explanations with similar and better credentials than mine.

Please list them, and we'll google them for their accomplishments and associations.

As I've repeatedly said here, I'm opposed to teaching religion in science classes under any guise, or indoctrination in any subject. I am in favor of breaking the death-grip Darwin has on scientific investigation in this field, and for scientists to feel free to investgate new or modified mechanisms for origins and speciation.

- sk

It is hardly a deathgrip when any scientist who could conclusively refute evolutionary theory would receive a Nobel Prize, an Ivy Leage tenured position and fat grants for life, and a permanent major entry in the annals of science. Countless thousands have endeavored to grasp such a brass ring. But they haven't been able to, because you cannot empirically disprove what is indeed the empirical case.

711 jaunte  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 6:39:50pm

re: #637 Spar Kling

Thanks for that answer. It provides a a good example, for anyone who goes back and links to my original question, of how people associated with the Discovery Institute deliberately construct a lie.

712 claire  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 6:57:15pm

"A scientific degree from an accredited University", huh? Wow-how impressive.

Nobody I know who actually has such a degree would EVER use those words "scientific" or "accredited" (it would just go without saying, and they'd describe it as a "science" degree or a B.S., etc.)- too funny.

I'm guessing it's more like a certificate in surveying from Bob's House O' Land Measurin'.

713 Spar Kling  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 7:11:03pm

re: #708 Charles

Right. Your "anonymity."

Snort.

What you're really afraid of: if you pick a "scientific degree" out
of thin air, someone might start asking you questions about that field,
and you wouldn't be able to answer.

You don't really think you're kidding anyone, do you?

You asked me and I told you the truth. I'm sorry that you're expressing such hostility to me because of my opinions.

- sk

714 Spar Kling  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 7:17:18pm

re: #711 jaunte

Thanks for that answer. It provides a a good example, for anyone who goes back and links to my original question, of how people associated with the Discovery Institute deliberately construct a lie.

You didn't admit that I provided you with the examples that you asked for.

I have no association with the Discovery Institute or any similar organization, nor have I ever been.

- sk

715 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 7:19:01pm

re: #713 Spar Kling

You asked me and I told you the truth. I'm sorry that you're expressing such hostility to me because of my opinions.

- sk

It's not your opinions to which Lizards object; it's the reek of smarmy dishonesty and the cynical attempts at integrity-bereft manipulation that accompany them.

Lizards have sensitive noses for bullshit, and the thick and acrid stench from yours has burned their nostrils to singed crisps.

716 Salamantis  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 7:20:32pm

re: #714 Spar Kling

You didn't admit that I provided you with the examples that you asked for.

I have no association with the Discovery Institute or any similar organization, nor have I ever been.

- sk

None of your so-called 'examples' had a damn thing to do with evolutionary theory. And you knew it when you posted them. Or should have.

717 jaunte  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 7:28:09pm

re: #714 Spar Kling

"ID articles" was the topic, which I referred to as 'papers.' The request was for examples of papers supporting ID which had been 'unjustly excluded' from peer review. You know this. You know you're lying, and so do many more people after this exchange.

718 Spar Kling  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 7:43:17pm

re: #712 claire

"A scientific degree from an accredited University", huh? Wow-how impressive.

Nobody I know who actually has such a degree would EVER use those
words "scientific" or "accredited" (it would just go without saying,
and they'd describe it as a "science" degree or a B.S., etc.)- too
funny.

I'm guessing it's more like a certificate in surveying from Bob's House O' Land Measurin'.

You'd have guessed wrong. If I'd have said, "I have a Science degree," I'm sure you would have said that you know of no university that grants degrees in "Science." If I said that my degree was granted by the College of Sciences at the university I graduated from, you might have said that you've never heard any one say that either. No, I'm not going to tell you what my degree is in. It's none of your business.

I don't particularly care if you or anyone is "impressed." That wasn't my point. I've taken classes and studied in these subject areas as well as outside studies on my own. If you can't accept someone having a different opinion on evolution without attacking them personally, then I'd say that was a problem.

I have regular discussions and debates with friends of mine on various aspects of evolution. We keep it interesting and civil.

- sk

719 Spar Kling  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 8:04:10pm

re: #717 jaunte

"ID articles" was the topic, which I referred to as 'papers.' The
request was for examples of papers supporting ID which had been
'unjustly excluded' from peer review. You know this. You know you're
lying, and so do many more people after this exchange.

No, I'm not lying. The original point I was making had to do with the flaws and politics of the peer-review system. Did you ever talk to any professors about this as I suggested? Then, after this, you asked me for examples for papers submitted by IDers. I found one from the news that turned out to be very controversial.

In August 2004, Dr. Stephen C. Meyer's paper titled, "The Origin of Biological Information and the Higher Taxonomic Categories," was published in the Biological Society of Washington (volume 117, no. 2, pp. 213-239). The Proceedings is a peer-reviewed biology journal published at the National Museum of Natural History at the Smithsonian Institution in Washington D.C. Dr. Meyer is affiliated with the Discovery Institute, regularly vilified by the Darwinist scientific community and elsewhere including some well-known blogs.

As a result of allowing Dr. Meyer's paper to be published, the editor of the journal, Dr. Richard Sternberg, was relentlessly harassed and later demoted. This ultimately resulted in a congressional investigation and a report was published in 2006.

You then attacked the congressional investigation.

Remember now? :-)

-sk

720 jaunte  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 8:09:02pm

re: #719 Spar Kling

That didn't happen.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

721 Charles  Sat, Oct 4, 2008 8:23:06pm

re: #718 Spar Kling

No, I'm not going to tell you what my degree is in. It's none of your business.

Then why did you boast about it?

722 Nemesis6  Sun, Oct 5, 2008 2:27:04pm

I think I know what "accredited university" that might be... it wouldn't happen to have been founded by Jerry Falwell Jr., would it? :/


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