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Palin's Creationism Statements: Distorted by Right and Left

Politics | Mon, Oct 6, 2008 at 10:24:35 am PDT

It’s bad enough when the Obama supporters do it, but it’s worse when Sarah Palin’s creationist supporters try to distort her record to suit their purposes. A letter to the editor of the Indiana Star Press: Be an informed voter.

There’s not enough space to address each and every “ignorant” comment made by the pro-Obama writers, but I must correct one writer who unfairly attacks Palin’s views on the teaching of “creationism and abstinence-only sex education in public schools.” The writer is simply ignorant of the facts. The truth is Palin would like creationism and abstinence added to the curriculum. She believes students should be subjected to both views.

The highlighted statement above is absolutely, completely, 100% false. Palin has stated on several occasions, very explicitly, that she does not want to add creationism to school curricula.

The Anchorage Daily News: ‘Creation science’ enters the race.

In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms:

“I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum.

Even the Associated Press was forced to admit that Palin has never pushed creationism into schools as governor of Alaska.

And in Palin’s interview with Katie Couric, she repeated that she supports the teaching of evolution, and that “science should be taught in science class.”

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219 comments

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1 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:26:15am

Is it possible that this letter writer is really a leftist, trying to stir the pot.

2 Drained Brain  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:26:52am

Sad to say the letter will probably be quoted as "fact" by the MSM.

3 HugoChavez  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:26:54am

I see my useful idiots are working furiously!

Habana cigars all around at the castle on "Selection Day"!

4 shanimal1918  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:28:07am

Who cares about Creationism anyway? Seems more of an obsession for some than a legit political issue.

5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:28:27am

Is every "journalist" in the world today a fucking idiot?

6 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:29:25am
7 HugoChavez  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:29:48am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

a fucking useful idiot

fixed that for ya!

8 Celtic Templar  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:31:06am

re: #4 shanimal1918

Who cares about Creationism anyway? Seems more of an obsession for some than a legit political issue.

It's a wedge issue. Most folks don't realize that even if Palin advocates for it, there's not much she can do. Unless my civics classes are wrong, what exactly can the President/VP do to mandate curriculum? Isn't this a state's rights thing (and even down to the county as far as curriculum)? Would No Child Left Behind have a Creationism section? Wouldn't that need Congress to pass it?

What can Palin do, if she did advocate for Creationism (other than make her supporters look bad)?

9 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:31:18am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Is every "journalist" in the world today a fucking idiot?

I find that kind of redundant. In fact, I think being an idiot is a requirement for being a journalist. Journalists, IMHO, are like the Platte River; a mile wide, and an inch deep.

10 ErnieG  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:31:39am

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

Is it possible that this letter writer is really a leftist, trying to stir the pot.

The left is using agents provocateurs? I am shocked, shocked.

11 NC State of Mind  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:31:48am

OT:

Fox just reported in the tease that Palin would be bringing up the Wright issue. More when the get back from commercial.

12 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:32:04am

re: #1 Walter L. Newton

Is it possible that this letter writer is really a leftist, trying to stir the pot.

A moby in print.

13 bellamags  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:32:16am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Yes.

14 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:32:31am

OT
"Germany takes hot seat as Europe falls into the abyss. We face extreme danger. Unless there is immediate intervention on every front by all the major powers acting in concert, we risk a disintegration of global finance within days. Nobody will be spared, unless they own gold bars. "

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Ok, so the 700 billion was just for yucks.

15 opnion  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:32:40am

Just one last comment re the last thread.
The Obama surrogates are all over today claiming that Obama hardly knew Ayers. That assertion is of course preposterous.
Think about this, Ayers babysat for the Obama children.
Think about it, would you allow an adult male that you hardly know spend the evening alone with your small children?

16 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:33:40am

re: #12 Honorary Yooper

A moby in print.

No, her name was Mary Barrett, not Moby.

17 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:34:15am

re: #15 opnion

Just one last comment re the last thread.
The Obama surrogates are all over today claiming that Obama hardly knew Ayers. That assertion is of course preposterous.
Think about this, Ayers babysat for the Obama children.
Think about it, would you allow an adult male that you hardly know spend the evening alone with your small children?

Progressives do.

18 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:35:02am

When man tries to play G-d:

Test of that Big Bang Collider Web Cam.

19 Celtic Templar  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:35:21am

OT: We need The Avenger's Handbook but for conservatives. All the lefties have their Mein Kampf, Manifestos, Rules for Radicals ... We need a Defenders handbook.

I'm collecting ideas if anyone is interested.

20 tfc3rid  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:35:38am

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

OT
"Germany takes hot seat as Europe falls into the abyss. We face extreme danger. Unless there is immediate intervention on every front by all the major powers acting in concert, we risk a disintegration of global finance within days. Nobody will be spared, unless they own gold bars. "

[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

Ok, so the 700 billion was just for yucks.

We should have let the system sort itself out, rather than further indebt our system... We need to feel a lot of pain as a nation... Things came way too easy for too many people... People who lived above their means are now forced to make everyone suffer... Not fair at all... Those of us who have control of our personal economic situation will be better in the long run...

21 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:35:47am

Sarah Palin killed the dinosaurs because they were grazing on prime drilling land.

22 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:35:58am

Honesty is hard to come by these days.

23 The Shadow Do  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:36:28am

re: #15 opnion

Just one last comment re the last thread.
The Obama surrogates are all over today claiming that Obama hardly knew Ayers. That assertion is of course preposterous.
Think about this, Ayers babysat for the Obama children.
Think about it, would you allow an adult male that you hardly know spend the evening alone with your small children?

Does anyone have a link for the babysitter thing?

24 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:36:35am

re: #21 experiencedtraveller

Sarah Palin killed the dinosaurs because they were grazing on prime drilling land.

You put it onto the net so it must be true.

///

25 jwb7605  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:37:08am

re: #15 opnion

Just one last comment re the last thread.
The Obama surrogates are all over today claiming that Obama hardly knew Ayers. That assertion is of course preposterous.
Think about this, Ayers babysat for the Obama children.
Think about it, would you allow an adult male that you hardly know spend the evening alone with your small children?

To my knowledge, that is anecdotal.
Not documented.

I'd like to be wrong about that, if you have any links.

26 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:37:12am

re: #18 Ben Hur

When man tries to play G-d:

Test of that Big Bang Collider Web Cam.

Priceless LOL

27 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:37:40am
28 Ford_Prefect  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:39:26am

re: #22 Ringo the Gringo

Honesty is hard to come by these days.

Depends on your definition of honesty. The msm will often give stories that have no factual errors in them, they just don't tell you all of the story. Or they will relay someone else's comments about something (for example "Sarah Palin killed the dinosaurs because they were grazing on prime drilling land.") and then just fail to point out that it is in fact not correct.

29 legalpad  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:40:53am

Re-post:

If McCain could do anything to fix his campaign it would be focusing on why the economy is the Democrats fault; In swing states only. That should be his main emphasis. That is the only area the left has any strength in. His researchers should anticipate every possible counter-argument and he should prepare to deliver these in the remaining debates, where complete exposure is possible. The Democrats are beaten in every other subject, but the Republicans, as usual, are allowing the drumbeat of false statements about the cause of the economy to hold sway in the public mind. They should refute false statements thoroughly and brutally every single time without exception. They should develop their own drumbeat. The Democrats policies destroyed the economy. The Democrats stopped any countermeasures; Over and over and over. None of this damn Republican silence. That is tacit participation in the Democrats relentless propaganda. Silence is not nobility, it is not virtue. Economy, economy, economy: Truth about the economy.

30 Ben Hur  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:41:08am

Why doens't someone just ask her?

Oh wait......

31 PISSED  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:41:32am

OFF TOPIC KINDA...

watch this and forward it to your friends..

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

32 bellamags  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:41:59am

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

frikin psychos.

33 doppelganglander  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:42:28am

I hate it when nutjobs and fuckwits make our candidate look like an idiot.

34 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:42:31am

Hey y'all - hate to go OT here, but while some folks are worried about Palin/Creationism, there is a MUCH bigger issue on the Plate: who will run America after this election.
And I hate to do this, but this is a repost of something I said at the end of the prior thread:
"Ya know, I appreciate what Charles is saying here, but this isn't 2000. This isn't a semi-respectable (at the time) Democrat running against another Bush.
Nor is it 2004 when an even less respectable (at the time of the election) Democrat was running against Bush.
This is a totally unrespectable Democrat running against a man who prides himself on "reform" and
bi-partisanship. But this Dem - and all of his friends, aren't interested in McCain's ideas of reform and have absolutely NO desire for bi-partisanship whatsoever - the Dems want it ALL.
I truly think that the polls TODAY don't matter; I think what the polls say on Thursday will; tomorrow night if McCain consistently and constantly throws out HIS record on Fannie/Freddie and HIS plan for the economy and consistently and constantly shows that Obama has NO PLAN for the economy, NONE -EXCEPT TAX, TAX AND TAX SOME MORE, the the polls on Thursday and Friday will be much, much different.
IF McCain doesn't take it to Obama where Obama is the weakest (it's one thing to talk about redistributing the wealth when there appears to be a lot of wealth around; it's altogether different when there is MUCH LESS wealth around) then there is going to be little hope for Republicans at all.
This isn't the result of Bush's economic plan; this current economy is the DIRECT result of a Democratic Congress and a Democratic President creating the entire Sub-Prime Mortgage market with the CRA."

35 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:43:08am

re: #29 legalpad

Re-post:
If McCain could do anything to fix his campaign it would be focusing on why the economy is the Democrats fault...

He should have started outlining that last week. Too late, he lost the issue, it's not his anymore. The Dems jumped all over the Repubs, balmed them, the MSM ran with it, McCain was silent. Case closed.

36 Cap'n DOC  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:43:48am

re: #18 Ben Hur

LOL. What's that sucking noise I hear?...........................

37 The Shadow Do  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:45:23am

re: #34 realwest

I thinks he should simply point out the crashing economy and state "this is what Socialism does, any more questions?"

38 pat  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:46:54am

One would think it would be hard to smear such a common sense person who is so obviously honest and decent, but it turns out that appears to be what is hated most about her.

39 lawhawk  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:47:35am

re: #34 realwest

Actually, this goes to the election - smearing Palin with a broad brush - lying about her stated position on the issue of ID, creationism, and science in the classroom. These issues cannot be laid aside because they are part and parcel of the smear campaign against the McCain ticket.

The McCain campaign does need to spend more time dealing with the issues of the economy - and take the fight to Obama on his turf - hit the Democrats hard and heavy every day on the fact that it was Democrats who blocked reform of Fannie and Freddie and that the money trail ends up at the door of Democrats including Obama himself. Obama has advisers who helped since Fannie and Freddie - and if they can do that to both those organizations, what can they do to America other than ruin its economic engines of capitalism.

40 Lizard by the Bay  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:47:36am

This is partly Palin's fault for wanting it both ways by appeasing the creationists in her own state. She should never have thown them those verbal bones. Granted, at the time she did it she had no idea she'd be fingered for a much higher political office beyond Alaska.

41 Cap'n DOC  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:47:58am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

Geeeesh, Walter. You'd think the election was tomorrow.

42 legalpad  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:49:35am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

Yeah, you are probably right. Republicans wait and wait, they are silent. Who the hell knows why - Meantime the Democrats are lying faster than they breathe - chanting, drumbeat, hysteria-
/Heil Hitler

43 opnion  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:50:34am

re: #25 jwb7605

To my knowledge, that is anecdotal.
Not documented.

I'd like to be wrong about that, if you have any links.


Ya know, I have heard & read it, but...........

44 legalpad  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:51:08am

One thing though on the economy: the remaining debates are yet to come.

45 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:51:48am

re: #27 buzzsawmonkey

Whats eating you buzz? Is it the appalling is/are grammatical mistakes or the 'clamoring' aboard the ark idea?

/Everyone knows the ark has gangplanks. We can walk aboard like civilized people.

46 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:52:08am

After preaching Doom and gloom, saying we need to pass the bailout right away or it would mean the end times, Bush has the balls to come out and say this:

SAN ANTONIO, Texas (AP) - As global markets plunged, President Bush on Monday said "it's going to take awhile" for the government's $700 billion financial rescue plan to bolster the troubled U.S. economy.

Bush said the purpose of the package was to unlock the nation's credit freeze "to get money moving again." But, he added: "We don't want to rush into the situation and have the program not be effective."

Fuck you. My confidence in this man is gone.

47 MrSnuggles  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:52:18am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

Well you know what they say, a lie is half way around the world by the time the truth gets out of bed. There is still time for McCain to point the finger at the dems. I still have not heard one reason or explanation as to why Bush's policies caused this crisis, and I'm sure the American people have not either. It is just the empty rhetoric that obama uses incessantly.

48 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:53:57am

Man this creationism vs science debate goes nuts right away.

But how big or old is the universe to a light particle?

49 tfc3rid  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:53:59am

re: #46 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

After preaching Doom and gloom, saying we need to pass the bailout right away or it would mean the end times, Bush has the balls to come out and say this:


Fuck you. My confidence in this man is gone.

Wow... That is incredible... While history may prove him diffeent on the issue of the WOT, he has assured himself infamy with this bailout nonsense...

50 ErnieG  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:54:23am

re: #37 The Shadow Do

I thinks he should simply point out the crashing economy and state "this is what Socialism does, any more questions?"

Then they would say, "No, it's due to eight years of failed Republican policies." And he'd better have answers to that canard, with facts, chapter and verse. We have all seen these facts, here at LGF, on various blogs, and on Youtube. The pity is. we have not heard them from the McCain campaign

51 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:54:36am

re: #46 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

After preaching Doom and gloom, saying we need to pass the bailout right away or it would mean the end times, Bush has the balls to come out and say this:

Fuck you. My confidence in this man is gone.

I don't see the origin of your fury here. what he said makes sense, and does not contradict getting the legislative framework (the bill) in place, and then having it work its course from there.

am I missing something?

52 ibmkeyboard  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:54:39am

re: #46 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

After preaching Doom and gloom, saying we need to pass the bailout right away or it would mean the end times, Bush has the balls to come out and say this:

My confidence in this man is gone.

we risk a disintegration of global finance within days. Nobody will be spared, unless they own gold bars.

Who the fuck can eat gold bars?

Hey Bill Clinton!

Your frigging World Free Trade is going down.

53 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:54:41am

re: #46 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Mine too, ever since the "ROP" comment.

54 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:54:45am

re: #41 Cap'n DOC

Geeeesh, Walter. You'd think the election was tomorrow.

re: #42 legalpad

Yeah, you are probably right. Republicans wait and wait, they are silent. Who the hell knows why - Meantime the Democrats are lying faster than they breathe - chanting, drumbeat, hysteria-
/Heil Hitler

Opinions, take your pick.

55 Cap'n DOC  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:54:47am
56 debutaunt  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:54:51am

re: #3 HugoChavez

I see my useful idiots are working furiously!

Habana cigars all around at the castle on "Selection Day"!

You again! Thugo!

57 tfc3rid  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:54:59am

re: #47 MrSnuggles

Well you know what they say, a lie is half way around the world by the time the truth gets out of bed. There is still time for McCain to point the finger at the dems. I still have not heard one reason or explanation as to why Bush's policies caused this crisis, and I'm sure the American people have not either. It is just the empty rhetoric that obama uses incessantly.

Yeah but it is damn well working... There is no rhyme or reason but point the fing,er get the goons in the media on the case and you've got a radioactive issue...

58 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:55:53am

re: #48 Ojoe

Man this creationism vs science debate goes nuts right away. But how big or old is the universe to a light particle?

Or even to a heavy particle?

59 tfc3rid  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:56:04am

I find it amazing and incredible that those of us here could probably run a more successful campaign for office than a large number of GOP'ers running this November...

60 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:56:41am

re: #58 Walter L. Newton

Yes, a baryon (sp)

Light sees the universe as infinitely small and brand new, I think.

61 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:57:15am

Gotta go to town back later

62 ZoomieMsgt  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:57:41am

OK, I'm breaking my silence here and now. I vowed NEVER to make a comment in any sort of thread dealing with creationism, as I know this is Charles' topic of choice to anti-champion. It is a known taboo for lizards who want to live long in his aquarium, sunning under the lights and enjoying tidbits of squished liberals to feast upon. Soooo...in self preservation, I will not make a comment on Creationism itself, but I WILL ask a question that I believe has not seen the light of day. ::girds self and gathers thoughts::

Obama is completely expected to take the Black vote, using the Black community organizers, who are predominately pastors, deacons, preachers and otherwise VERY religious people(at least as a front). Are not all these people Christians? Who should believe, or at least espouse the truth that man was created in God's image and that evolutionism is anathema to them? Are they now saying that the color of a man's skin can and should overcome the truth? They would support a man who's other supporters, the ones who FUND his campaign, are counting on Obama to make abortions legal, to ban even discussing creationism in the classroom, to muzzle those who would have a Christian thought in public?

Is the Black vote really his if these things would be spoken of in more than whispers?

OK, I've run out of steam. I know how I feel, and unlike liberals, I can put my emotion in check to state facts. The MSM will never highlight the inherent differences between the socialist party that Obama wants and the truth that he will toss his people under the bus to gain even greater power if he succeeds.

63 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:57:46am

re: #60 Ojoe

Yes, a baryon (sp) Light sees the universe as infinitely small and brand new, I think.

Ah, I was just trying at a little humor, light/heavy, geek humor, tough room here. :)

64 ibmkeyboard  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:57:47am

re: #59 tfc3rid

I find it amazing and incredible that those of us here could probably run a more successful campaign for office than a large number of GOP'ers running this November...

I'm voting for my neighbor Madaune Gunch,

she is a rebel.

65 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:57:51am

re: #51 Vergeltung

I don't see the origin of your fury here. what he said makes sense, and does not contradict getting the legislative framework (the bill) in place, and then having it work its course from there.

am I missing something?

My fury is I was against the idea of the bailout in the first place. Bush and congress used fear tactics and political strong arming to get it to pass and disregarded the public opinion to get it rushed thru without proper hearings. Now that they have the money, they want to take the time to make sure they got it right? Thats bullshit.

66 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:58:02am

re: #59 tfc3rid

I find it amazing and incredible that those of us here could probably run a more successful campaign for office than a large number of GOP'ers running this November...

heh. I guess that is why it seems easier to sit and watch over a new attorney doing a trial, than to actually do one yourself. ;)

67 CIA Reject  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:58:06am

re: #59 tfc3rid

I find it amazing and incredible that those of us here could probably run a more successful campaign for office than a large number of GOP'ers running this November...

Any GOP candidate, even with the best of management, will have difficult time because they have to run against both their opponent and the media.

68 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:58:28am

re: #39 lawhawk
Oh I agree that this goes to the election my friend, but it wasn't about Palin/Creationism and it was early in the thread, that's why I apologized for going "OT"!

69 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:59:10am

re: #46 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

After preaching Doom and gloom, saying we need to pass the bailout right away or it would mean the end times, Bush has the balls to come out and say this:

Fuck you. My confidence in this man is gone.

The good news is he's only got 3 months left. The bad news may be his replacement.

70 Cognito  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:59:40am

At this point I think all this stuff -- creationism, Bill Ayers, Rev. Wright, etc -- are penny-ante affairs.

The economy is all that matters. All. It has sucked every ounce of oxygen from the atmosphere, and it is the thing on which McCain should focus in my opinion. People must understand how we got into this mess. At this point I think the average person feels -- judging by the success Obama has met during the market collapse -- that the blame lies at the feet of the Bush administration, because this happened during Bush's tenure.

I think McCain should drop every other talking point and focus on educating voters about how certain Washington characters drove the economy into the ground, and did it to their own political and financial benefit.

71 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 10:59:51am

re: #62 ZoomieMsgt

frankly, their issues of afro-centrism, and black empowerment outweigh the Christian doctrines they are supposed to be adhering to.....

72 Ojoe  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:00:00am

re: #63 Walter L. Newton

I had a physicist friend who had a cat called Mu Meson.


Ha ha!

LGF: Humor site

BBL

73 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:00:03am

re: #64 ibmkeyboard

I'm voting for my neighbor Madaune Gunch, she is a rebel.

You got it. Remember when she went on that hunger strike over that mistake about an overdue library book? Front page article in the Down Home Transcript.

74 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:00:32am

re: #59 tfc3rid

I find it amazing and incredible that those of us here could probably run a more successful campaign for office than a large number of GOP'ers running this November...

We have the luxury of sitting back and watching from the sidelines. It's always easier from here.

75 tfc3rid  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:00:36am

re: #66 Vergeltung

heh. I guess that is why it seems easier to sit and watch over a new attorney doing a trial, than to actually do one yourself. ;)

Well, I went into my local GOP office over 1 year ago and wanted to run... They put no one up in local elections and I offered to do it... I wasn't 'connected' enough to the local NYC politick for them...

I wanted to run...

76 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:01:27am

re: #70 Cognito

you certainly have a valid point there, IMO.

77 Cap'n DOC  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:02:43am

re: #59 tfc3rid

Yaw, yaw... The LizardKingdomBarka-Lounger.

78 ErnieG  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:04:05am

re: #74 unrealizedviewpoint

We have the luxury of sitting back and watching from the sidelines. It's always easier from here.

“Bullfight critics ranked in rows
Crowd the enormous Plaza full
But only one is there who knows
And he's the man who fights the bull.”

- Domingo Ortega

79 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:04:15am

re: #35 Walter L. Newton
With all due respect Walter, the case isn't closed and although they tried, the Dems and MSM haven't succeeded in laying this on McCain. I believe in what I said in my #34; tomorrow night is the debate with the focus on the economy and it is manifestly true that other than tax, tax and tax some more of what's left and blaming it on the Republicans, the Dems and Obama have NOTHING to say about the Economy.
And the truth is that the Dems are responsible for the Subprime mortgage mess; it's true that some more adventuresome Wall Street types tried to (and many did) cash in on it, the entire subprime mortgage market only exists BECAUSE of the Democrats.
IF McCain hits this point over and over, folks will understand. And Obama, after over a year of presenting NO economic plans at all, is gonna be hard pressed to come up with something now.

80 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:04:32am

re: #75 tfc3rid

Well, I went into my local GOP office over 1 year ago and wanted to run... They put no one up in local elections and I offered to do it... I wasn't 'connected' enough to the local NYC politick for them...

I wanted to run...

I sure do hear you. I friend of mine (we're both attorneys) wanted to get involved with the local Republican party several years ago. He's a combat vet, I used to be a DA, etc. They were like "yeah, sure sonny,...sure you can"

we never heard from them (no returned calls, etc). we moved on over to the Conservative party here in the county, and in s hort space of time, we both have been committee-men and now serve on the executive committee in each town.

sometimes, the smaller parties are "hungrier" :)

81 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:05:15am

re: #44 legalpad
YES - please see my #34!

82 jill e  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:05:30am
83 The Shadow Do  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:06:06am

re: #70 Cognito

You are right, Cognito. "it's the economy stupid" was never truer. I don't know how he can break the tag of Washington insider. "Maverick" has lost all meaning at present.

He needs to do what he threatened by "naming names" and not stop until election day for any hope whatsoever. The public is mighty fed up and not too keen, nor ever curious it seems, on the details.

84 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:06:10am

re: #82 jill e

wow, that's should open some eyes!

85 Ringo the Gringo  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:06:18am

re: #70 Cognito


I think McCain should drop every other talking point and focus on educating voters about how certain Washington characters drove the economy into the ground, and did it to their own political and financial benefit.

I agree.

Meanwhile, Sarah Palin can be the one to discuss Obama's past associates. She does it better anyhow.

86 legalpad  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:06:29am

re: #70 Cognito

If we all know this, you'd think the McCain campaign would. Good grief.

87 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:08:14am

re: #83 The Shadow Do

You are right, Cognito. "it's the economy stupid" was never truer. I don't know how he can break the tag of Washington insider. "Maverick" has lost all meaning at present.

He needs to do what he threatened by "naming names" and not stop until election day for any hope whatsoever. The public is mighty fed up and not too keen, nor ever curious it seems, on the details.

That's is so.. Maverick ain't cuttin' it. What have you done for me today? Besides, I didn't really agree with what you were being a Maverick about.

88 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:08:54am

re: #70 Cognito
Gee Cog - that's what I said in my #34 - we agree on something! Shocka!
/

89 Outrider  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:08:55am

re: #15 opnion

Just one last comment re the last thread.
The Obama surrogates are all over today claiming that Obama hardly knew Ayers. That assertion is of course preposterous.
Think about this, Ayers babysat for the Obama children.
Think about it, would you allow an adult male that you hardly know spend the evening alone with your small children?

I continue to read this, but it is always in comments. Is there anything factual that states Ayers babysat the Obama children? It is pointless and counter-productive to continue to state something that can not be substantiated.

90 legalpad  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:09:25am

re: #81 realwest

Yep

91 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:09:32am

The problem with this "creationist" crap is that folks who don't do their DD wind up spewing these distortions all over the place where more people who don't do research believe it.

For the record, a lot of atheists/agnostics on YouTube are spewing this kind of crap on their channels. I'm not saying they mean much, but some idiots actually believe crap that people say on YouTube.

92 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:10:45am

schnikies, the stock market keeps going down, and world markets are not doing well either. Drudge has alot of related economic stories. I guess it really is an inter-related global economy.

there's one article on there (from the UK, I think someone linked it already), where the guy is basically saying the sky is falling. according to the comments, many readers say he has said this since 1987, but, there is some logic to it if you read the article.

seems like the EU is not acting as decicively as they need to. that too, makes sense.....

93 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:11:21am

Merciful mother of crap!

DOW down 614.

94 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:12:02am

re: #79 realwest

I know that the blame lays mainly with the Dems. But my point was that I didn't hear anything from the McCain campaign (or even other Repubs) on this between the Monday vote and the Friday vote.

But the left was all over it, both Obama and the spin doctors. And considering that the attention span of the average American is about the lengh to a TV commercial, I think that the left ALREADY managed to set the preception of blame in stone.

Yes, McCain needs to use his time Tuesday night on detailing the other side of the issue, but he will be playing catch up now.

Not a good position to be in. This would have been a slam dunk last week. I don't understand it. Every time he turns around, McCain is letting everyone else define him, and he doesn't seem to be exerting any effort to do it himself.

95 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:12:20am

re: #93 Dirk Diggler
Hey Dirk - what's oil running at - earlier it was under $96 a barrell.

96 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:13:15am

re: #92 Vergeltung

As Gomer Pile would say "we are in a a world of shit". My feeling is that the DOW is going to hit close to 8000 before this turns itself around. I also think that it's going to take a few years to get us out of this mess. I'm stashing funds in a brokerage account to sift through the carnage once the dust settles. Money is made in a down market. Don't try and call a bottom but I think there will be a lot of great companies on sale in the next few years.

97 Lizard by the Bay  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:13:45am

re: #93 Dirk Diggler

Merciful mother of crap!

DOW down 614.

Part of me want it to go down even more so that I can get the maximum shares out of this years IRA contribution. But at the same time, I'm losing value on what I already have in there. I have mixed feelings. Thankfully, I don't plan to retire for another couple of decades.

98 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:13:58am

re: #93 Dirk Diggler

Merciful mother of crap!

DOW down 614.

Would that be the Big Mo's mom?

99 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:14:03am

More proof of the uselessness of the UN:

Brigadier Mark Carleton-Smith said if the Taliban were willing to talk, that might be "precisely the sort of progress" needed to end the insurgency.

"I've always said to those that talk about the military surge ... what we need most of all is a political surge, more political energy," Kai Eide, the U.N. special envoy to Afghanistan, told a news conference in Kabul.

"We all know that we cannot win it militarily. It has to be won through political means. That means political engagement."

100 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:14:16am

re: #92 Vergeltung

The only real bright spot in this is that oil is falling too. Oil falling below $100/bbl hurts Iran's capabilities, and puts Russia in a bind.

101 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:14:47am

re: #94 Walter L. Newton
Yeah, I know Walter. And it's hard not to feel down about that. I keep looking at McCain on TV and keep seeing Bob Dole.
But McCain could seriously still pull it out tomorrow night, but NOT if he insists on this stupid bi-parisanship with the Dems who want no part of it. He's gonna have to go after 'em.
Fortunately, the debate tomorrow night is the way to do it!

102 Charles  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:14:56am

re: #62 ZoomieMsgt

Are not all these people Christians? Who should believe, or at least espouse the truth that man was created in God's image and that evolutionism is anathema to them?

"Christian" does NOT mean "creationist." No less an authority than the Pope himself has unequivocally stated that there is no conflict between the scientific theory of evolution (not "evolutionism") and Christian beliefs.

This kind of wedge-driving statement is needlessly divisive, and the vast majority of Christians do not believe it.

103 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:15:05am

re: #100 Honorary Yooper

The only real bright spot in this is that oil is falling too. Oil falling below $100/bbl hurts Iran's capabilities, and puts Russia in a bind.

It was down below 90 earlier today. I'm guessing we see 70 a barrel pretty soon.

104 3 wood  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:15:25am

re: #95 realwest

Hey Dirk - what's oil running at - earlier it was under $96 a barrell.

$89.90

105 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:15:45am

re: #96 Jetpilot1101

As Gomer Pile would say "we are in a a world of shit". My feeling is that the DOW is going to hit close to 8000 before this turns itself around. I also think that it's going to take a few years to get us out of this mess. I'm stashing funds in a brokerage account to sift through the carnage once the dust settles. Money is made in a down market. Don't try and call a bottom but I think there will be a lot of great companies on sale in the next few years.

Gomer cursed on TV in the 1960s? ;)

but, yeah, I hear ya. I guess, for the short term, everyone's 401ks and the like will be down, down, down.

106 Occasional Reader  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:15:54am

re: #29 legalpad

If McCain could do anything to fix his campaign it would be focusing on why the economy is the Democrats fault

... and, more importantly, what he plans to do about it. Very, very important. People need to feel there's going to be a grownup in charge.

107 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:16:02am
108 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:16:16am

re: #102 Charles

"Christian" does NOT mean "creationist." No less an authority than the Pope himself has unequivocally stated that there is no conflict between the scientific theory of evolution (not "evolutionism") and Christian beliefs.

This kind of wedge-driving statement is needlessly divisive, and the vast majority of Christians do not believe it.

Amen Charles! As an evagelical Christian, I agree with you 110%! You can believe in God and evolution, the two are not mutually exclusive. The flunkies at the DI need to get a clue!

109 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:16:29am

real,

Hey Dirk - what's oil running at - earlier it was under $96 a barrell.

Oil is under $90 a barrel.

110 Occasional Reader  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:16:49am

re: #104 3 wood

re: #95 realwest

Hey Dirk - what's oil running at - earlier it was under $96 a barrell.

$89.90

Which, while a lot better than $147, is still damn expensive.

111 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:16:55am

re: #105 Vergeltung

Gomer cursed on TV in the 1960s? ;)

but, yeah, I hear ya. I guess, for the short term, everyone's 401ks and the like will be down, down, down.

I should have said "Private Pile" from Full Metal Jacket.

112 legalpad  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:17:15am

re: #106 Occasional Reader

yep

113 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:17:44am

re: #101 realwest

Yeah, I know Walter. And it's hard not to feel down about that. I keep looking at McCain on TV and keep seeing Bob Dole.
But McCain could seriously still pull it out tomorrow night, but NOT if he insists on this stupid bi-parisanship with the Dems who want no part of it. He's gonna have to go after 'em.
Fortunately, the debate tomorrow night is the way to do it!

And I think it's his last chance. If he can't define himself and the issues tomorrow, it's over. He really has to score a shut out (or damn close to one).

As I have said in the last few days, I don't like McCain one bit. But we need him in that office, simply as a political speed bump, to slow down the socialists. And then after that, we need to arrest the criminals, and investigate every person we can get our hands on. Clean the joint out.

114 The Shadow Do  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:17:47am

re: #103 Jetpilot1101

It was down below 90 earlier today. I'm guessing we see 70 a barrel pretty soon.

Maybe $50, and that is not good in the scheme of things.

115 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:18:13am

re: #102 Charles
You are absolutely correct Charles!

116 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:18:48am

re: #100 Honorary Yooper

The only real bright spot in this is that oil is falling too. Oil falling below $100/bbl hurts Iran's capabilities, and puts Russia in a bind.

exactly! oil, and the rising dollar, may indeed be a little brightness here. also in that articel I talked about, was a world-wide move to the dollar. not sure I understand why or how, but that's what it said.

lower oil could not come at a better time, for what many think will be the coldest winter in years. yeah. global warming......right.

117 bosforus  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:19:07am

Science in a science class? How absurd!

118 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:19:13am

re: #103 Jetpilot1101

It was down below 90 earlier today. I'm guessing we see 70 a barrel pretty soon.

Just so long as it stays just high enough for offshore drilling, ANWR, and oil shale to be profitable which, IIRC, is about $50-60/bbl.

119 sparrowlake  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:19:19am

re: #100 Honorary Yooper

The only real bright spot in this is that oil is falling too. Oil falling below $100/bbl hurts Iran's capabilities, and puts Russia in a bind.

IIRC the breakeven price for Alberta Tar Sands oil is approx. US$90. The implications for energy independence of sub-$90 oil are therefore mind-boggling.

120 3 wood  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:19:25am

re: #93 Dirk Diggler

DOW down 614.

I think we will see at least 1 more day of these kinds of numbers this week alone.

This is what I was talking about when I was yelling about the damage being done with all the screwing around.

Without the bail out I think you could have added a 1 to the front of these numbers

121 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:19:43am

re: #102 Charles

Pope Benedict, for the win. :)

122 doppelganglander  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:19:44am

re: #62 ZoomieMsgt

It's entirely possible to be a Christian and believe in evolution. However, on some of the other issues you mention (particularly abortion), I think it's very difficult to reconcile one's Christian faith with the political values of the Democrats. There is a very large disconnect between the values black churchgoing voters express on Sunday and the way they vote on the first Tuesday in November. I have no idea how they deal with that kind of cognitive dissonance.

BTW, you can dissent from Charles' views on creationism if you do it respectfully and without launching personal attacks.

123 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:19:45am

re: #104 3 wood
Whoo - Hoo! Bet there's as much doom and gloom in Russia and Iran as there is in some quarters here on LGF!
;')

124 Occasional Reader  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:20:00am

re: #102 Charles

No less an authority than the Pope himself

But he is THE ESCORT SERVICE OF ASSYRIA! ! ! !

//

125 Dianna  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:20:08am

re: #104 3 wood

$89.90

Do you see this balancing out? Not short-term, certainly, but medium-term?

126 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:20:37am

We should just call it the DOWN Jones Industrial Average.

-654.

127 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:21:07am

re: #110 Occasional Reader

Which, while a lot better than $147, is still damn expensive.

pretty soon I'll be able to fill my smart car for $5! ;P

128 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:21:14am

re: #118 Honorary Yooper

Just so long as it stays just high enough for offshore drilling, ANWR, and oil shale to be profitable which, IIRC, is about $50-60/bbl.

Absolutely. If the economy really turns south, maybe some of those folks that get laid off can be gainfully employed building oil rigs and extracting oil shale. Wouldn't that be a kick in old Al Gore's balls if what pulls this economy out of a potential future depression is investment in the fossil fuels industry.

129 Occasional Reader  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:21:15am

re: #114 The Shadow Do

Maybe $50, and that is not good in the scheme of things.

I'd say that fact, in and of itself, would be good in the scheme of things. The reason it got there... not so good.

130 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:21:32am

re: #111 Jetpilot1101

I should have said "Private Pile" from Full Metal Jacket.

I knew exactly what you meant to refer to. ;)

131 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:22:47am

OT: Case Sudy ALCOA

World's largest diversified aluminum and related technology manufacturer.

P/E of 8
Dividend yield almost 4%
EPS 2.4

Barrelling through its 5 year lows.

/Its ok to run around in circles screaming now...

132 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:22:48am

re: #118 Honorary Yooper
and
re: #119 sparrowlake

I don't think it matters much how low oil falls, we still need to become energy independent - even if we lose money (at current prices or lower) doing it. The price in terms of national security is waaaay too high to let low(er) oil prices stop us.

133 The Shadow Do  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:22:50am

re: #129 Occasional Reader

I'd say that fact, in and of itself, would be good in the scheme of things. The reason it got there... not so good.

Canary in a coal mine.

134 Jetpilot1101  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:22:54am

re: #120 3 wood

I think we will see at least 1 more day of these kinds of numbers this week alone.

This is what I was talking about when I was yelling about the damage being done with all the screwing around.

Without the bail out I think you could have added a 1 to the front of these numbers

The bailout will fail. Maybe we would have seen a 1 in front of the numbers but it would have fallen regardless. The numbers will fall, maybe just not as quickly.

135 3 wood  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:22:55am

re: #116 Vergeltung

also in that articel I talked about, was a world-wide move to the dollar. not sure I understand why or how, but that's what it said.

Here's why, at least the US is willing to take some significant action to deal with this. The rest of the world is way behind the curve and has a lot less resources to use to stop the bleeding.

So foreign capital is buying dollars to try to save their wealth.

136 Dianna  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:23:31am

re: #124 Occasional Reader

But he is THE ESCORT SERVICE OF ASSYRIA! ! ! !

//

I don't understand the reference?

137 Irene NYC  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:23:39am

re: #118 Honorary Yooper

Just so long as it stays just high enough for offshore drilling, ANWR, and oil shale to be profitable which, IIRC, is about $50-60/bbl.


I'm hoping this time around that Mr. and Mrs. Publix remember that some very not nice people control the fabric of our society so long as we remain dependent on foreign oil. And if they don't remember, I'm hoping that having Russian come into our hemisphere via Venezuela will jolt them out of their complacency.

But you never know.

138 eschew_obfuscation  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:24:41am

re: #133 The Shadow Do

Canary in a coal mine.

Would someone please shut that damn thing off!
/

139 tfc3rid  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:25:22am

re: #133 The Shadow Do

Canary in a coal mine.

Is it clean coal?

140 Occasional Reader  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:25:36am

re: #136 Dianna

I don't understand the reference?

The more, ah, vigorously partisan protestant sects, shall we say, have long enjoyed calling the Pope and/or the Catholic church the "Whore of Babylon". I just mixed it up a little for comic effect. Which didn't work, apparently.

141 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:25:39am

re: #136 Dianna

I don't understand the reference?

Whore of Babylon

142 The Shadow Do  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:25:48am

took a world war to break out of the last big tumble.

Bomb, bomb, bomb
Bomb, bomb Iran...

143 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:25:57am

re: #120 3 wood
How bad would it have been, do you guess, if the first bailout bill (the one without all the pork) had passed
instead of being voted down?
I see that as a potentially BIG negative for McCain.

144 3 wood  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:25:58am

re: #125 Dianna

Do you see this balancing out? Not short-term, certainly, but medium-term?

Eventually prices drop enough that you bottom out and get some positive direction.

Lower oil prices bode well for long term growth and profits, just bear in mind that the oil price can rise a lot faster then the market can.

You just witnessed about 10 years of stock market growth vanish in a month.

145 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:26:08am

re: #135 3 wood

Here's why, at least the US is willing to take some significant action to deal with this. The rest of the world is way behind the curve and has a lot less resources to use to stop the bleeding.

So foreign capital is buying dollars to try to save their wealth.

thank you, Dr. Science. ;)

I knew there was a reason! heh, seriously, thanks for the exaplanation. it makes alot of sense. kind of how, for most of modern economic history, the dollar was sought after for just those reasons.

146 Wishing  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:26:13am

re: #123 realwest

Whoo - Hoo! Bet there's as much doom and gloom in Russia and Iran as there is in some quarters here on LGF!
;')

..but they arent allowed blogs

147 Irene NYC  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:26:25am

Anybody willing to look into a crystal ball and say a few words about the future of gold?

148 Outrider  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:26:27am

re: #62 ZoomieMsgt

OK, I'm breaking my silence here and now. I vowed NEVER to make a comment in any sort of thread dealing with creationism, as I know this is Charles' topic of choice to anti-champion. It is a known taboo for lizards who want to live long in his aquarium, sunning under the lights and enjoying tidbits of squished liberals to feast upon. Soooo...in self preservation, I will not make a comment on Creationism itself, but I WILL ask a question that I believe has not seen the light of day. ::girds self and gathers thoughts::

Obama is completely expected to take the Black vote, using the Black community organizers, who are predominately pastors, deacons, preachers and otherwise VERY religious people(at least as a front). Are not all these people Christians? Who should believe, or at least espouse the truth that man was created in God's image and that evolutionism is anathema to them? Are they now saying that the color of a man's skin can and should overcome the truth? They would support a man who's other supporters, the ones who FUND his campaign, are counting on Obama to make abortions legal, to ban even discussing creationism in the classroom, to muzzle those who would have a Christian thought in public?

Is the Black vote really his if these things would be spoken of in more than whispers?

OK, I've run out of steam. I know how I feel, and unlike liberals, I can put my emotion in check to state facts. The MSM will never highlight the inherent differences between the socialist party that Obama wants and the truth that he will toss his people under the bus to gain even greater power if he succeeds.

But the African-American population in the USA is about 12% total with black Hispanics comprising another 1.4%. All Hispanics make up 14%.

149 Occasional Reader  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:26:46am

re: #135 3 wood

Here's why, at least the US is willing to take some significant action to deal with this.

Yep, to paraphrase Kissinger: "What number do I call to talk to the European Treasury Department?"

150 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:27:00am

re: #136 Dianna

I don't understand the reference?

I didn't either, but I figured he'd follow-up with an explanation. I know the assyrians were an ancient peoples/civilization, but that's all I know.

151 Dianna  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:27:04am

re: #140 Occasional Reader

re: #141 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Thanks, guys.

152 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:27:36am

re: #147 Irene NYC

Anybody willing to look into a crystal ball and say a few words about the future of gold?

Make sure to check the fillings on any looters you manage to take out.

153 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:27:38am

re: #126 Dirk Diggler

We should just call it the DOWN Jones Industrial Average.

-654.

Now that we're past the circuit-breaker deadline, it's going to plunge the rest of the day. Hang onto your asses!

154 3 wood  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:27:49am

DOW 717 and dropping

155 jill e  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:28:02am
156 The Shadow Do  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:28:04am

re: #139 tfc3rid

Is it clean coal?

I hope not. I work in corrosion mitigation. I like dirty coal, I call it job security.

157 Dianna  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:28:38am

re: #147 Irene NYC

If you believe the economy is a zero-sum game, I'm sure it's a great investment.

158 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:28:41am

re: #142 The Shadow Do

I don't think folks peekin' in will get your humor. Tag needed?

159 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:28:42am

re: #119 sparrowlake

IIRC the breakeven price for Alberta Tar Sands oil is approx. US$90. The implications for energy independence of sub-$90 oil are therefore mind-boggling.

I thought it was much lower for the Alberta Tar Sands, in the $50/bbl range. Startup for extraction is more expensive than continuing extraction though.

161 experiencedtraveller  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:29:06am

re: #147 Irene NYC

Anybody willing to look into a crystal ball and say a few words about the future of gold?

Been watching. It makes a jump on the 'big' down days but treads water/reverses with everything else on the 'normal' down days.

162 Dirk Diggler  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:29:08am

A collapse reminiscent of yesterday's Texans-Colts game.

-711

163 Vergeltung  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:29:12am

re: #144 3 wood

You just witnessed about 10 years of stock market growth vanish in a month.

man, that's nasty. I had no idea.........

164 MandyManners  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:29:21am
165 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:29:57am

That woman's letter is simply, plainly, stupid.

166 Ward Cleaver  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:30:04am

re: #55 Cap'n DOC

Anybody seen this? Ayers isn't even on the bus to get tossed off.

Obama is a lying POS.

167 sparrowlake  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:30:27am

re: #132 realwest

and
re: #119 sparrowlake
I don't think it matters much how low oil falls, we still need to become energy independent - even if we lose money (at current prices or lower) doing it. The price in terms of national security is waaaay too high to let low(er) oil prices stop us.

Who will subsidize the infrastructure and production costs in the short run?

168 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:30:45am

Well all y'all - it's been an educational day on LGF, if not an exactly "grand" day (news is too gloomy for that) but I gotta go eat some lunch!
I hope you all have a GREAT day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

169 The Shadow Do  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:30:57am

re: #158 unrealizedviewpoint

I don't think folks peekin' in will get your humor. Tag needed?

Oops

170 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:31:19am

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Is every "journalist" in the world today a fucking idiot?

You hafta ask?

171 tfc3rid  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:31:34am

re: #147 Irene NYC

Anybody willing to look into a crystal ball and say a few words about the future of gold?

The Detective from Law and Order:SVU says it's a good buy...

172 Irene NYC  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:31:42am

Bye real, catch you later.

173 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:32:18am

re: #168 realwest

Well all y'all - it's been an educational day on LGF, if not an exactly "grand" day (news is too gloomy for that) but I gotta go eat some lunch!
I hope you all have a GREAT day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Just finished a bowl of kimchee noodles with carnitas mixed in.

174 razorbacker  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:32:29am

re: #22 Ringo the Gringo

Honesty is hard to come by these days.

When the truth is inconvenient, pols abandon the truth. Statesmen do not.

Recall the words of Truman, "I don't give them hell, I tell them the truth and they think it's hell."

But that failed habadasher couldn't make it as a Dem nowadays. I'm not so terribly sure that he could make it as a Rep, either.

175 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:32:35am

From Powerline:

Sarah Palin's calling out of Barack Obama over the Bill Ayers connection has finally caused some mainstream outlets to report the story (albeit generally in misleading fashion) and has compelled the Obama campaign to respond. That response is surprising, to say the least: Obama now claims that he didn't know about Bill Ayers' terrorist past through all the years when he worked with Ayers in Chicago!

Come on now! They're not even trying to hide the lies. How could Obama, given what he said about his college days in his autobiography, have no idea who Bill Ayers or the Weather Underground is? Don't piss on my leg and tell me it's raining.

176 realwest  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:32:51am

re: #167 sparrowlake
Whoops, sorry I missed that one!
If necessary, the US Taxpayers - we're the ones who pay the frieght for our Military National Security and if need be, we'll have to be the ones to pay for our Non-Military National Security.

Now I'm off to lunch!

177 3 wood  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:33:10am

DOW down 722.

Buddy, can you spare a dime?

I think I will need an apple cart for my next career opportunity.

178 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:33:16am

re: #162 Dirk Diggler

A collapse reminiscent of yesterday's Texans-Colts game.

-711

And here I thought it was more like the Bears-Lions game yesterday. Lions started the game and got worse as it went on.

179 yma o hyd  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:34:00am

Its interesting, isn't it, that the same MSM who can't find anything bad on B0 are also incapable of finding out who exactly has unleashed this unprecedented raid on the world economy.

Its not just the sub-prime banking crisis - that has been going on for a good year now, and has already led to a state bail-out and nationalisation of one bank here in the UK one year ago!
Other international banks (UBS, for example) were caught in it earlier this year - so why this collapse across the banking industry, across the board in the industrialised countries?

Its not just because of politics (i.e. liberal fascist love a crisis), there's gotta be more to it, or rather: more than just a few semi-public figures lining their pockets.

It is deeply regrettable that there don't seem to be any business journalists willing to dig deeper - all we get, across the board, is wailing and gnashing of teeth, and of course blaming the politicians ...

We deserve better, I think!

180 wolfie  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:34:18am

re: #155 jill e

A really helpful Obama "genealogy"

Great link. Muchas gracias!

181 unrealizedviewpoint  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:34:29am

re: #169 The Shadow Do

Oops

Besides, it was the New Deal that saved America.

/

182 Dianna  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:38:20am

re: #173 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Just finished a bowl of kimchee noodles with carnitas mixed in.

That sounds just weird.

183 3 wood  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:39:06am

re: #178 Honorary Yooper

And here I thought it was more like the Bears-Lions game yesterday. Lions started the game and got worse as it went on.

My condolences to Lions fans. Your receiver #11 should be cut today. He was openly showing up his QB all game, and refused to go into traffic to catch a ball. He was cutting his routes short a lot too.

184 sparrowlake  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:39:08am

re: #159 Honorary Yooper

I thought it was much lower for the Alberta Tar Sands, in the $50/bbl range. Startup for extraction is more expensive than continuing extraction though.

$85 at 10% return as of Sept. 4/08. With unstable prices the required rate of return will rise, so $90 is a good estimate - for now.

185 3 wood  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:41:36am

I think we got about 2 more drops like this coming until we bottom out.

186 JHW  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:42:14am

re: #179 yma o hyd

Just reading an interesting an article in the Telegraph, it severely takes the EU to task:

Drastic rate cuts would be a good start. Central bankers still paralysed by a misplaced fear of inflation – whether in Europe, Britain, or the US – have become a public menace and should be held to severe account by our democracies. The imminent and massive danger is now self-feeding debt deflation.
The lesson of the 1930s is that any country trying to reflate in isolation will be punished. The crisis will ricochet from one economy to another until every one is crippled. We are seeing it play again in this drama as our leaders fail to rise above their narrow, parochial agendas.

The European Central Bank – which raised rates into the teeth of the crisis in July – has played a shockingly destructive role in this enveloping slump. Its growth predictions this year have been, and still are, delusional. Neglecting its global role, it has vastly complicated the fire-fighting efforts of Washington.


Germany takes hot seat ads Europe falls into the abyss

187 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:43:42am

re: #102 Charles

... evolution (not "evolutionism") ...


Thank you, Charles. Way too many people don't get that. One is science, the other is philosophy (or better, a religion of athiest thinking)

188 Honorary Yooper  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:44:11am

re: #183 3 wood

My condolences to Lions fans. Your receiver #11 should be cut today. He was openly showing up his QB all game, and refused to go into traffic to catch a ball. He was cutting his routes short a lot too.

It'll get worse this year before it gets better. At least two positive things have happened. 1. Matt Millen is gone. 2. Bill Ford Jr. is taking a more active intrest in the team and making his father do much needed things (see #1).

189 Jim D  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:49:18am

re: #187 unreconstructed rebel

There isn't such a thing as 'evolutionism' at all except in the minds of some creationists.

190 rightwinger3  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:55:03am

re: #177 3 wood

DOW down 722.

Buddy, can you spare a dime?

I think I will need an apple cart for my next career opportunity.

3 wood, school me if you have time. what makes the value of stocks go up and down? amount being traded along with what people are willing to buy it for?

191 rightwinger3  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:55:48am

re: #177 3 wood

DOW down 722.

Buddy, can you spare a dime?

I think I will need an apple cart for my next career opportunity.

Keep in mind I'm a jarhead.

192 unreconstructed rebel  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:58:34am

re: #189 Jim D

There isn't such a thing as 'evolutionism' at all except in the minds of some creationists.

I more often hear it referred to as darwinism, but there are many on both sides who like to fuzz the line between science & philosophy.

193 Sissy Willis  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 11:59:38am

It's probably too late. Saturday Night Live has already pushed the Palin-as-Creationist meme. The sheer willful mindlessness of it boggles the mind.

194 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:06:28pm

re: #182 Dianna

That sounds just weird.

But delicious. Nice fried pork with some hot spicy noodles.

195 LotharBot  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:08:42pm

re: #189 Jim D

There isn't such a thing as 'evolutionism' at all except in the minds of some creationists.

There are plenty of people out there who believe evolution, not because they understand even the most basic pieces of the theory or can follow the science, but because their religious naturalism requires it. I ran into plenty of them in online debates when I was studying evolutionary genetics for my masters degree. You know the ones -- if you're discussing the finer points of speciation, they start ranting about how Genesis 1 is nonsense, as if it's even remotely relevant. Such people are to evolution what Fred Phelps is to Christianity -- parasites who make everyone else look bad.

There is a such thing as evolutionism; it's a pseudo-religious belief we should ridicule. We need to be able to treat it as separate from evolution, the scientific theory that we should study, experiment on, and revise as necessary.

196 Jim D  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:13:41pm

re: #192 unreconstructed rebel

Yes, but many folks use the term 'darwinism' to imply that evolution is some kind of belief system.
I don't have to believe in evolution. 150 years of science demonstrates it is a valid scientific theory.

197 LotharBot  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:16:06pm

UPDATE to #195:

as #192 said, sometimes it's referred to as "Darwinism". Usually the term is used by creationists trying to discard evolution... but often it's used by religious-evolutionism believers, in order to identify themselves to each other.

Modern evolutionary theory only remotely resembles Darwin's ideas. When creationists try to discard modern evolutionary theory using the name "Darwinism" they sound like idiots. And when religious-evolutionism believers try to link themselves to science by calling themselves "Darwinists" or "pro-Darwin" they, too, sound like idiots.

198 Archimedes  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:20:51pm

re: #15 opnion

Just one last comment re the last thread.
The Obama surrogates are all over today claiming that Obama hardly knew Ayers. That assertion is of course preposterous.
Think about this, Ayers babysat for the Obama children.
Think about it, would you allow an adult male that you hardly know spend the evening alone with your small children?

Here are my kids, Bill, and please don't explode bombs near them like you did back in the early 1970s. Talk to you later, going to catch a movie.

199 sparrowlake  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:23:51pm

re: #197 LotharBot

UPDATE to #195:

as #192 said, sometimes it's referred to as "Darwinism". Usually the term is used by creationists trying to discard evolution... but often it's used by religious-evolutionism believers, in order to identify themselves to each other.

Modern evolutionary theory only remotely resembles Darwin's ideas. When creationists try to discard modern evolutionary theory using the name "Darwinism" they sound like idiots. And when religious-evolutionism believers try to link themselves to science by calling themselves "Darwinists" or "pro-Darwin" they, too, sound like idiots.

Ooga-booga.......ism.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA

200 uptight  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:28:40pm

Off Topic - it looks like Kathy Sawada might be in the shit. Doubt it though..

You may remember it was she who made that creepy "Sing for Change" video with the children of The Colburn School.

Well a friend of mine, disturbed at what he saw, compained to the scholl.

This is the answer he received:

On behalf of The Colburn School I would like to thank you for your message and your concern.

We can confirm that the 'Sing for Change' video was a project conceived and executed independently by an individual who is employed by The Colburn School. The video was not filmed on the school's campus or during a Colburn School class. The Colburn School is not involved in any way with the video and leadership was made aware of the video's existence last Tuesday.

The contents of the video are the expressed views of the employee and the attendant parents shown in the footage.

Thank you again for your concern,

201 uptight  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:29:39pm

Off Topic - it looks like Kathy Sawada might be in the shit. Doubt it though..

You may remember it was she who made that creepy "Sing for Change" video with the children of The Colburn School.

Well a friend of mine, disturbed at what he saw, compained to the school

This is the answer he received:

On behalf of The Colburn School I would like to thank you for your message and your concern.

We can confirm that the 'Sing for Change' video was a project conceived and executed independently by an individual who is employed by The Colburn School. The video was not filmed on the school's campus or during a Colburn School class. The Colburn School is not involved in any way with the video and leadership was made aware of the video's existence last Tuesday.

The contents of the video are the expressed views of the employee and the attendant parents shown in the footage.

Thank you again for your concern,

202 abolitionist  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:32:03pm

re: #186 JHW

Bad link -- You got the text in the URL field.

203 justadot  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 12:43:10pm

re: #186 JHW
re: #202 abolitionist

Link repaired:
Germany takes hot seat as Europe falls into the abyss

I'll save this for reading later.

204 Dainn  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 1:10:26pm

Who needs truth when you have narrative. Truth is not good copy. Get with the times.

205 HBob  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 2:07:26pm

Well now that I'm better informed on the issue I can check that item off my list of concerns for this election.

Maybe it's further down the list...

No...

Still looking...

Still nothing...

Hmmm...

Nope...

Dang.

Where'd it go. I think it was on here at one time...

Well gosh... this is getting silly...

I'm down to "hairstyles" and "footwear"...

Oh well, thanks anyway!

206 Oldbluesboy  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 2:26:36pm

SARAH! Use the Alinsky method on Obama!

Oh, maybe she is...........

207 Basho  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 3:29:21pm

re: #52 ibmkeyboard

Who the fuck can eat gold bars?

Hey Bill Clinton!

Your frigging World Free Trade is going down.

QFT

And instead of buying gold, use the money to buy something one can actually barter with. Gold lost its usefulness a long time ago.

208 Oldbluesboy  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 4:37:44pm

[Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]


Saul Alinsky”s Rules for Radicals:
Intro: “Lest we forget at least an over-the-shoulder acknowledgment to the very first radical: from all our legends, mythology, and history... the first radical known to man who rebelled against the establishment and did it so effectively that he at least won his own kingdom — Lucifer.”
(Saul Alinsky,1971)

Always remember the first rule of power tactics:
1. "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have."
2. "Never go outside the expertise of your people. When an action or tactic is outside the experience of the people, the result is confusion, fear and retreat.... [and] the collapse of communication.
3. "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)
4. "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules. You can kill them with this, for they can no more obey their own rules than t he Christian church can live up to Christianity."
5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."
6. "A good tactic is one your people enjoy."
7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."
8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."
9. "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself."
10. "The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition. It is this unceasing pressure that results in the reactions from the opposition that are essential for the success of the campaign."
11. "If you push a negative hard and deep enough, it will break through into its counterside... every positive has its negative."
12. "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative."
13. Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it. In conflict tactics there are certain rules that [should be regarded] as universalities. One is that the opposition must be singled out as the target and 'frozen.' ... When your 'freeze the target,' you disregard these [rational but distracting] arguments and carry out your attack.... One acts decisively only in the conviction that all the angels are on one side and all the devils on the other." pp.127-134
________________________________________
Alinsky's Rules for Radicals: "Known as the 'father of modern American radicalism,' Saul D. Alinsky (1909-1972) developed strategies and tactics that take the enormous, unfocused emotional energy of grassroots groups and transform it into effective anti-government and anti-corporate activism. ... Some of these rules are ruthless, but they work."

209 mph  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 5:08:14pm

That letter to the editor could easily be a democrat sock puppet.

210 Charles  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 6:21:19pm

re: #209 mph

That letter to the editor could easily be a democrat sock puppet.

That's why it's important to say, "Nope. I'm not down with that."

211 ZoomieMSgt  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 7:16:51pm

re: #102 Charles

"Christian" does NOT mean "creationist." No less an authority than the Pope himself has unequivocally stated that there is no conflict between the scientific theory of evolution (not "evolutionism") and Christian beliefs.

This kind of wedge-driving statement is needlessly divisive, and the vast majority of Christians do not believe it.

See? I knew I stayed out of creationist threads for a reason! I ignored the little voice of reason and now issue a mea culpa. I assumed that very religious christians(from some personal experience) held to creationism. From my small experience I extrapolated to a larger population, the downfall of most so called scientific experiments. My sincere apologies to anyone I may have insulted.

212 ZoomieMSgt  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 7:21:48pm

re: #122 doppelganglander

It's entirely possible to be a Christian and believe in evolution. However, on some of the other issues you mention (particularly abortion), I think it's very difficult to reconcile one's Christian faith with the political values of the Democrats. There is a very large disconnect between the values black churchgoing voters express on Sunday and the way they vote on the first Tuesday in November. I have no idea how they deal with that kind of cognitive dissonance.

BTW, you can dissent from Charles' views on creationism if you do it respectfully and without launching personal attacks.


I thought I had, but inadvertently seemed to insult the intelligence of Christians who don't believe in creationism. It seems I poorly crafted my words, I was just attempting to highlight what I felt was hypocrisy and ended up losing the message. See above. I truly am sorry for insulting anyone, it was not intentional.

213 ez g[deleted]  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 7:56:43pm
214 Salamantis  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 8:29:03pm

re: #213 ez g

For crying out loud! Could you please just leave the whole creation evolution thing alone for a while. A day? This used to be a great web site but it has "DEVOLVED" into a never ending rant for evolution.

WE GET IT. Unfortunately, every regular visitor "gets it." We know where you are coming from and what you think about the subject. Could you please give it a phreaking rest already.

No. Not as long as a well-financed creationist movement is striving to subvert and suborn the science education of American children in public schools.

215 Salamantis  Mon, Oct 6, 2008 8:30:06pm

EZ G

Registered since: Jun 9, 2008 at 9:02 am

No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

216 Charles  Tue, Oct 7, 2008 7:28:17am

I'm completely fed up with creationists insultingly demanding that I stop posting about this subject. When they do, accounts will be blocked.

217 Yashmak  Tue, Oct 7, 2008 7:30:33am

I recall reading (here I believe) Sarah Palin's comments on science in the science classroom, and was pleased. I hope she keeps her position on this clear, so as to dispell any further such nonsense as this letter.

218 ssn697  Tue, Oct 7, 2008 3:43:10pm

All well and good, but she still believes man and dinosaur walked the earth at the same time, the earth is 5-6000 years old, and that certain things need to be put into action to bring the "end times".

I find all of that much more disconcerting than the teaching creationism.

219 Yashmak  Tue, Oct 7, 2008 4:06:14pm

I'm sorry ssn697, I'm going to need some sort of citation to back up such an outlandish assertion.


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