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Texas School Board Appoints 3 Creationists to Science Committee

Science | Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 3:40:56 pm PDT

“Intelligent design” creationism is a step closer to being taught in Texas science classes, as “social conservatives” on the State Board of Education appoint three creationists to a six-member committee to review science curricula.

Not just any creationists, either; two of them are affiliated with the Discovery Institute, and authored the ludicrous pseudo-scientific “intelligent design” textbook Explore Evolution. The tactic is to get this textbook accepted in Texas, and thereby influence textbook buying all over the nation.

They’ve put the fundamentalist foxes in charge of the scientific henhouse, and the victims will be the children in Texas public schools.

AUSTIN – Social conservatives on the State Board of Education have appointed three evolution critics to a six-member committee that will review proposed curriculum standards for science courses in Texas schools.

Two of the appointees are authors of a book that questions many of the tenets of Charles Darwin’s theory of how humans and other life forms evolved. One of them, Stephen Meyer, is also vice president of the Discovery Institute, a Seattle-based group that promotes an explanation of the origin of life similar to creationism. The other author is Ralph Seelke, a biology professor at the University of Wisconsin-Superior.

Also on the panel is Baylor University chemistry professor Charles Garner, who, like the other two, signed the Discovery Institute’s “Dissent from Darwinism” statement that sharply questions key aspects of the theory of evolution.

Three other committee members are veteran science professors from major Texas universities – the University of Texas at Austin, Texas Tech University and Southern Methodist University.

The committee was chosen by 12 of the 15 members of the board of education, with each panel member receiving the support of two board members. For example, Republican board members Geraldine Miller of Dallas and Pat Hardy of Weatherford selected SMU anthropology professor Ronald K. Wetherington, who is also director of the Center for Teaching Excellence at the university.

Six other members of the board aligned with social conservative groups chose the three committee members who have signed the “Dissent from Darwinism” document along with several hundred educators from across the U.S.

More information on the Discovery Institute.

And more information here: Texas Freedom Network: Texas State Board of Education Puts Strident Anti-Evolution Critics on Science Standards Review Panel.

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1328 comments

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1 Zimriel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:42:45pm

I so wish social conservatives in my state would concentrate their fire on history and so-called "social studies" courses.

2 Eowyn2  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:44:29pm

re: #1 Zimriel


me too

3 bosforus  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:44:35pm

Science - science != science.

4 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:44:46pm

re: #1 Zimriel

I so wish social conservatives in my state would concentrate their fire on history and so-called "social studies" courses.

I think in some ways, a lot of Conservatives view Creationism as 'firing back' at the Leftist indoctrination going on in public schools. Not so much the ones spearheading the Creationism thing, but the apologists on the right that abet them.

5 Zimriel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:45:05pm

The worst of it? When BHO and the Congress get wind of this, and should they win, they'll use this as a mandate to nationalise textbook purchases. I hope you like the 15-page spread of "Obama, Lightworker" in your English book; because in a few months it's going to be science, too.

Thanks, idiots!

6 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:45:52pm

This is going to faal through the cracks if I dont re-post here, sorry.

But Irish bookmakers Paddy Power have already decided Obama is the President and paid out more that 1,000,000 euros to those who backed him.

No wonder there are so many jokes about the Irish

7 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:46:17pm

Faal = fall PIMF

8 CapeCoddah  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:47:19pm

re: #4 Scion9

I think in some ways, a lot of Conservatives view Creationism as 'firing back' at the Leftist indoctrination going on in public schools. Not so much the ones spearheading the Creationism thing, but the apologists on the right that abet them.

There are lots better ways to fight that battle. This is outrageous.

9 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:47:34pm

And for an encore, they will appoint a fortune teller to head the committee choosing Computer Science texts.

/Crystallomancy or palm-reading- your choice

cheers

eon

10 JeremiahRight  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:47:52pm

they need to go watch "Evolve" on the History Channel, especially the episode on the eye.

11 Eowyn2  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:48:45pm

As a Christian who believes God created the universe and all of us, I still find it unpalatable to have creation in the science classes. I would be more than content with teaching evolution and the big bang as theories.

and no, I dont believe dinosaurs and humankind as we know it existed anywhere but on a tropical island.

12 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:49:08pm

Hmmmm, without an "academic freedom" bill they're going to have a tough time.
I wish conservatives and Republicans would knock it off with the unconstitutional stuff. It's a dead end and makes us all look bad.

13 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:49:53pm

re: #6 A Kiwi Infidel

What a bunch of dumbasses.

14 Eowyn2  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:50:35pm

re: #6 A Kiwi Infidel

This is going to faal through the cracks if I dont re-post here, sorry.

But Irish bookmakers Paddy Power have already decided Obama is the President and paid out more that 1,000,000 euros to those who backed him.

No wonder there are so many jokes about the Irish

they better collect while they can.
Of course, this explains why people are pushing for Obama.

15 StPatrick  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:51:02pm

re: #4 Scion9

Fire back with facts. I agree with #1 - let's start with social studies, history, etc.

16 Soona'  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:51:23pm

re: #9 eon

And for an encore, they will appoint a fortune teller to head the committee choosing Computer Science texts.

/Crystallomancy or palm-reading- your choice

cheers

eon

Oh for pete's sake. Let Texas do what it wants to do. Or I should say, Texas doesn't care what anyone thinks, they're going to do what they want to do.

17 StPatrick  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:52:04pm

re: #6 A Kiwi Infidel

Where do you park your car, exactly?

18 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:52:05pm

re: #3 bosforus

Science - science != science.

Anybody in the mood for some Thomas Dolby on this thread?

She Blinded Me With Science

Somehow seems appropriate.

cheers

eon

19 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:52:05pm

Details Of Evolutionary Transition From Fish To Land Animals Revealed


New research has provided the first detailed look at the internal head skeleton of Tiktaalik roseae, the 375-million-year-old fossil animal that represents an important intermediate step in the evolutionary transition from fish to animals that walked on land.
20 Racer X  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:52:33pm

re: #6 A Kiwi Infidel

This is going to faal through the cracks if I dont re-post here, sorry.

But Irish bookmakers Paddy Power have already decided Obama is the President and paid out more that 1,000,000 euros to those who backed him.

No wonder there are so many jokes about the Irish

I'd like to see how he plans to collect back those bets when Obama loses.

21 FamHistoryGuy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:52:40pm

re: #6 A Kiwi Infidel

Wonder what it cost when McCain wins. Will he refuse to pay the real winners? Will he demand money back from the real losers? Will he lose his betting permit? Should be fun.

22 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:52:50pm

They will fail.

23 AndyMacOP  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:53:18pm

re: #4 Scion9

Sad that this fight seems to have political ties. It should never be political, it is science vs. denying science its rightful place in education. Heck, I teach morality in a Catholic High School and not one science teacher tells me how or what to teach...and I return the favor.

I even had a freshman tell me that he would never believe in evolution thinking because I wear a religious habit I would disapprove. I used the Charles disclaimer on him and I think he is now on a reasonable path in both religion and science.

24 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:53:34pm
25 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:54:40pm

re: #16 Soona'

Oh for pete's sake. Let Texas do what it wants to do. Or I should say, Texas doesn't care what anyone thinks, they're going to do what they want to do.

I'd agree, except for the fact that (as Charles has stated) they are the biggest school textbook market in the country. What they want in a textbook=what the rest of the country gets, whether it wants it or not.

In public schools, Texas is the tail that wags the dog.

cheers

eon

26 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:55:44pm

re: #23 AndyMacOP

Yes, it shouldn't be political, but there isn't much that isn't. Public schools should especially be off-limits to being politicized.

27 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:56:49pm

re: #16 Soona'

Oh for pete's sake. Let Texas do what it wants to do. Or I should say, Texas doesn't care what anyone thinks, they're going to do what they want to do.

The size of Texas' textbook purchasing power dictates the textbooks for many other states, that is why this is important.

28 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:57:24pm

re: #16 Soona'

Oh for pete's sake. Let Texas do what it wants to do. Or I should say, Texas doesn't care what anyone thinks, they're going to do what they want to do.

No. Let's not.

29 StPatrick  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:57:43pm

re: #20 Racer X

He probably did not pay the full "bet X to win Y" rate. If the bookie thinks it's a lock, he'd be wise to pay less than the bets would earn on election night early at a lesser rate to minimize his losses, esp. if his lines were so pro-Obama that he would take a bath if McCain loses. If the line failed to move as fast as the action, the juice on the losing bets would not cover the payouts on the likely winner.

30 Soona'  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:58:05pm

re: #25 eon

I'd agree, except for the fact that (as Charles has stated) they are the biggest school textbook market in the country. What they want in a textbook=what the rest of the country gets, whether it wants it or not.

In public schools, Texas is the tail that wags the dog.

cheers

eon

Is it Texas' fault that this situation exists?

31 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:59:36pm

re: #27 CyanSnowHawk

The size of Texas' textbook purchasing power dictates the textbooks for many other states, that is why this is important.

That's one reason why it's important. Another reason is that Texas, last I heard, is still part of the United States and subject to that pesky little thing called the Constitution, including the First Amendment thereto.

32 StPatrick  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:59:40pm

re: #29 StPatrick

the juice on the losing winning bets + the cash in hand from the losing bets would not cover the payouts on the likely winner.

PIMF

33 CapeCoddah  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 3:59:45pm

re: #30 Soona'

Is it Texas' fault that this situation exists?

That being the case, it is imperative that Texas act responsibly in situations that will impact the rest of the nation.

34 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:00:12pm

re: #25 eon

It's also important to note that Texas is still part of the United States and they are required to uphold the constitution.

35 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:00:40pm

re: #31 Lynn B.

Ya beat me to that one.

36 Zimriel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:00:58pm

re: #30 Soona'

Is it Texas' fault that this situation exists?

Yes, it is. Texas chose to centralise its book purchases. Texas chose to raise up creationists to the position which selects these books. It is absolutely Texas's fault that this situation exists.

As a Texan, I deplore these fools, and an ashamed that they represent me.

37 FamHistoryGuy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:01:04pm

Perhaps we need to go to printing school books like SAC manuals. In loose leaf binders so they can be amended by the local boards to put the science back in and take the religion out.

SAC=Strategic Air Command. Noted for its propensity to supplement Air Force regs and manuals.

38 Globular Cluster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:01:11pm

BRIT HUME LEAVING JOURNALISM. That sucks. He's my favorite.

39 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:01:19pm

re: #35 Killgore Trout

Ya beat me to that one.

High five!

40 krycek  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:01:20pm

Why don't we let states have some rights to themselves? For example, anything that is not spelled out in the US Constitution.

41 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:01:43pm

I think my town of Twin Falls, Idaho has the right idea. If a High School Student wishes to take an ELECTIVE course in religious studies, they are allowed too. The only requirement is that it is provided by a recognized local Church and that it is conducted off campus. They do not receive any credit for the course, but it is in my opinion a win/win scenario for both the student and the school district. The student gets to study a religious subject and the school doesn't pay for it. Being a nonreligious individual myself, I find this solution quite attractive.

42 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:02:09pm

re: #38 Globular Cluster

BRIT HUME LEAVING JOURNALISM. That sucks. He's my favorite.

Totally sucks. He leaves just about everyone else in the dust.

43 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:02:45pm

re: #31 Lynn B.

That's one reason why it's important. Another reason is that Texas, last I heard, is still part of the United States and subject to that pesky little thing called the Constitution, including the First Amendment thereto.

That is the whole issue here, if Texas' textbooks violate the Constitution, that's a headache for everyone, and this is exactly what could happen here.

44 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:02:45pm

We have our own curriculum problem here in Southeastern Wisconsin. Racine Unified is using 8th grade textbooks extolling the virtues of Barack Obama - for 15 pages.
[Link: www.suntimes.com...]

Our battle is fighting socialism and leftist policies at the grade school level. It is all consuming and a very big threat. It threatens to indoctrinate our children at every level, in every subject.

It is not limited to the science class - it is in our reading classes, our literature classes, our math classes, our civics classes, our history classes, our social studies classes, - EVERYTHING.

The education system here in Wisconsin has become little more than a liberal playing field for leftists to indoctrinate our children into a culture and a way of life that bears little or no resemblance to the America I grew up in and that I love.

45 Zimriel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:03:43pm

re: #40 krycek

Why don't we let states have some rights to themselves? For example, anything that is not spelled out in the US Constitution.

krycek, because the particular "right" which the state is subverting is spelled out in the US Constitution!

46 StPatrick  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:04:03pm

This scenario, in good old Texas, fits the "foot in the door" strategy espoused by the DI to a "T". As with anything else, the idea is not a victory after the first volley, but a slow creep. In the meantime, this will create a sideshow (along with plenty of infighting) for conservatives that has the potential to distract the base from important financial and national security issues.

47 A Kiwi Infidel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:04:07pm

re: #17 StPatrick

Where do you park your car, exactly?


Right next to yours.

48 FamHistoryGuy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:04:14pm

re: #31 Lynn B.

With the shape schools are in here in Texas, we do not need the expense of lawsuits taking money away from the school system. True believers tend to be a royal pain and an impediment to education.

49 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:04:31pm

re: #40 krycek

Why don't we let states have some rights to themselves? For example, anything that is not spelled out in the US Constitution.

How about we hold the States accountable to the Constitution as well.

50 His Royal Highness  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:04:59pm

Why are you surprised by this Charles? This is the position of the Republican party!

51 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:05:04pm

re: #41 Bubblehead II

I think my town of Twin Falls, Idaho has the right idea. If a High School Student wishes to take an ELECTIVE course in religious studies, they are allowed too. The only requirement is that it is provided by a recognized local Church and that it is conducted off campus. They do not receive any credit for the course, but it is in my opinion a win/win scenario for both the student and the school district. The student gets to study a religious subject and the school doesn't pay for it. Being a nonreligious individual myself, I find this solution quite attractive.

Being a religious individual myself, I also find this solution quite attractive.

Student and family get to choose the course of religious instruction, not the local school board or the national Dept of Ed. The decision as to whether to study, and what to study, remains in the hands of the parents and the student.

It's set up to ensure the course is taught under the auspices of a recognized church, not a teacher with no credentials in teaching the subject.

52 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:07:19pm

re: #43 CyanSnowHawk

That is the whole issue here, if Texas' textbooks violate the Constitution, that's a headache for everyone, and this is exactly what could happen here.

If Texas' textbooks violate the Constitution they will most likely in relatively short order no longer be Texas' textbooks. Unless there's some massive failure of our judicial system. (Which isn't out of the question, given our presumptive next president's woefully wrong views, as expressed last night, on how it's supposed to work.)

53 Daffy Duck  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:07:53pm

re: #44 mama winger

Hope we haven't waited too long to join the battle. IMHO, the (D) candidate in this election is the product of too many years of the tactics you describe, already in action.


^ I re-read that, it doesn't 'flow' right. Hope you get what I mean.

54 Zimriel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:08:15pm

re: #50 His Royal Highness

Why are you surprised by this Charles? This is the position of the Republican party!

Liar. Show me where in this year's Republican Party platform the Party mandates or even allows for creationism.

55 Steffan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:08:48pm

Creationism is religion. Public school teachers do not have any business teaching religion.

AFAIAC, global warmenism is also religion.

OT: Microsoft engineers blog about Windows 7.

My favorite quote:

Unlike Windows Vista where senior management continually gave “input” to the feature crew, for Windows 7, management has pretty much kept their hands off of the development process.

There ya go.... now we know why Windows Vista is such a clusterf**k. The Pointy-Haired Boss strikes again!

56 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:08:55pm
57 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:08:56pm

re: #30 Soona'

Is it Texas' fault that this situation exists?

Actually, it's the fault of the textbook companies, who are for the most part specialty publishers who don't do anything else. As such, they are entirely too eager to "trim their sails" to whatever the customer with the deepest pockets wants in the books- or wants left out.

This is also how we ended up with history textbooks that talk about the "wanton aggression" of the U.S. A-bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki without mentioning Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, the Rape of Nanking, etc., and refer to Christopher Columbus in terms similar to those applied (deservedly) to Adolf Eichmann.

I'd say we need national standards for textbooks (and I believe such a measure was originally part of NCLB), but that begs the question- who decides on the standards? The Discovery Institute for science? Berkeley for history?

Noam Chomsky for Political Science?

Maybe what we really need is for the textbook publishers to start printing other things they can make money on so that they can afford to grow a pair and tell the delusional types who want their fantasy Weltaanschauung to be the standard curriculum in our schools to go piss up a rope.

/just saying

cheers

eon

58 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:09:37pm

The astrologers and alchemists demand equal representation!

59 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:09:40pm

re: #50 His Royal Highness

Why are you surprised by this Charles? This is the position of the Republican party!

I don't think so. Where is your evidence for this, or do you have any?

60 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:09:46pm

re: #41 Bubblehead II

I think my town of Twin Falls, Idaho has the right idea. If a High School Student wishes to take an ELECTIVE course in religious studies, they are allowed too. The only requirement is that it is provided by a recognized local Church and that it is conducted off campus. They do not receive any credit for the course, but it is in my opinion a win/win scenario for both the student and the school district. The student gets to study a religious subject and the school doesn't pay for it. Being a nonreligious individual myself, I find this solution quite attractive.

No credit, off campus, religious studies.
Sounds kind of like it's completely separate from the school. What's the difference between that and say, Sunday school? Or do they actually receive some credit for it?

61 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:10:05pm

re: #51 reine.de.tout

Exactly. Plus if a student does sign up for a course, they are required to attend, as the class is required to submit an attendance report. Failure to show up is grounds for revocation of the right to attend as well as other disciplinary action.

62 StPatrick  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:10:57pm

re: #57 eon

History is written by the victors, and right now, we're losing. I'd add a Viet Nam corrolary, but LGF readers already know the story.

63 zombie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:11:19pm

Heh.

Now Andrew Sullivan has linked to me in The Atlantic's "Daily Dish" blog:

McCain Is Winning! (Maybe)

That's the thrust of this long kooky article on polling conspiracies. The thesis:
Saying how you intend to vote is not simply an expression of how you intend to vote, but rather a component of the public barometer of how the majority intends to vote, which is then used by the media and the blogs to influence everyone else.

He obviously hasn't even read it.

This is in addition to links at Think Progress and hundredes of other moonbat blogs. The Left is currently going berserk with rage and mockery over my essay!

They've discovered the comments section in my post at zomblog about the essay, and are busy spewing ad hominem invective towars me at a furious rate.

64 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:11:22pm

re: #48 FamHistoryGuy

With the shape schools are in here in Texas, we do not need the expense of lawsuits taking money away from the school system. True believers tend to be a royal pain and an impediment to education.

I'm sure you don't need that expense, but it looks like you're going to incur it nonetheless. Best case, though, the DI will be made to pick up the bill.

65 Soona'  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:12:51pm

re: #36 Zimriel

Yes, it is. Texas chose to centralise its book purchases. Texas chose to raise up creationists to the position which selects these books. It is absolutely Texas's fault that this situation exists.

As a Texan, I deplore these fools, and an ashamed that they represent me.

Two questions: 1) Have the books been written? 2) Don't they have to go through any kind of approval by the various school districts like they do in our state?

66 CapeCoddah  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:13:25pm

re: #63 zombie

Heh.

Now Andrew Sullivan has linked to me in The Atlantic's "Daily Dish" blog:

McCain Is Winning! (Maybe)

He obviously hasn't even read it.

This is in addition to links at Think Progress and hundredes of other moonbat blogs. The Left is currently going berserk with rage and mockery over my essay!

They've discovered the comments section in my post at zomblog about the essay, and are busy spewing ad hominem invective towars me at a furious rate.

Congrats, Zombie, I wish I had the power to make moonbats heads explode. I sent that link to every person I know, and got rave reviews back. That is an awesome piece. I envy your talent. Thank You.

67 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:14:17pm

So the disco dewds want to scam their way into the schools of America by getting the great state of Texas to do it for them. How disingenuous.

To top it off- there will be lawsuits over this book in Texas and across the nation, and at a time when this country can ill afford to be wasting education dollars to defend the use of a pseudo-science book in public schools.

Our economy is hurting- we can't be wasting our education money on this. But that's not stopping the disco institute from continuing to peddle their brand of BS.

*spit*

68 Steffan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:14:19pm

re: #63 zombie

I think you hit a nerve.

Heh.

69 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:15:25pm

re: #63 zombie

Heh.
. . .
They've discovered the comments section in my post at zomblog about the essay, and are busy spewing ad hominem invective towars me at a furious rate.

I like the 1st sentence of this guy's comment:

Hard to believe that anyone would actually have enough time to spend writing all this content to address udder nonsense.

And then his last sentence:

Please let me know if you managed to get a college degree and if so where so I can make sure my kids don’t ever think of going there

.

Looks to me like it's his college his kids need to avoid, not yours!

70 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:16:07pm

re: #60 CyanSnowHawk

No credit and it is an ELECTIVE course, so no coercion to attend. I find it to be IMHO a most elegant solution to the separation of Church and State clause.

Just remember this, it is ONLY AVAILABLE to High School students.

71 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:16:37pm

re: #63 zombie

Heh.

Now Andrew Sullivan has linked to me in The Atlantic's "Daily Dish" blog:

McCain Is Winning! (Maybe)

He obviously hasn't even read it.

This is in addition to links at Think Progress and hundredes of other moonbat blogs. The Left is currently going berserk with rage and mockery over my essay!

They've discovered the comments section in my post at zomblog about the essay, and are busy spewing ad hominem invective towars me at a furious rate.

Any day you can do something that causes Sullivan to make an a$$ of himself yet again is a good day.

Well Done, Zombie!


cheers

eon

72 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:17:31pm

re: #63 zombie


They've discovered the comments section in my post at zomblog about the essay, and are busy spewing ad hominem invective towars me at a furious rate.

Brilliant strategy in debunking an essay about groupthink.

73 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:17:35pm

re: #56 taxfreekiller


His "Sir Hiss" is not a male, its the current Republican Chair Person
Tina Binkaser, together they and the "home school" crowd and the
Eagle Forum are the ones who get these strange people on the State Board of Edu.
taxfreekiller

There appear to be more homeschooled families who are motivated by secular reasons -- lousy school environment -- than religious reasons. This is a change from the past. About ten years ago, most homeschoolers were Christian conservatives. Now, its a mix.

74 gunjam  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:17:57pm

Woo-hoo!

I love it here in Texas!

75 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:17:59pm

re: #63 zombie

Wow... what's with that loser commenter complaining about the fact that you are anonymous... Talk about horrible reasoning skills.

76 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:18:35pm

re: #67 Sharmuta

So the disco dewds want to scam their way into the schools of America by getting the great state of Texas to do it for them. How disingenuous.

To top it off- there will be lawsuits over this book in Texas and across the nation, and at a time when this country can ill afford to be wasting education dollars to defend the use of a pseudo-science book in public schools.

Our economy is hurting- we can't be wasting our education money on this. But that's not stopping the disco institute from continuing to peddle their brand of BS.

*spit*

So true. But the courts tend to get irritated by these repeat offenders. If the DI gets assessed court costs and attorneys' fees in enough of these cases, the money will be returned to the school districts and the DI may (God willing) be put out of business.

77 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:18:35pm

re: #63 zombie

Heh.

Now Andrew Sullivan has linked to me in The Atlantic's "Daily Dish" blog:

Yea, Zombie. One person really CAN make a difference, huh?

78 gunjam  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:18:52pm

George Washington was a creationist.

Robert E. Lee was a creationist.

I am a creationist.

Is this a great country, or what?

79 Thanos  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:19:21pm

re: #16 Soona'

Oh for pete's sake. Let Texas do what it wants to do. Or I should say, Texas doesn't care what anyone thinks, they're going to do what they want to do.

They can do what they want as soon as they stop accepting Federal dollars for their schools. The Texas people can take that to a vote.

80 stevieray  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:19:30pm

re: #63 zombie


He obviously hasn't even read it.

Oh, he read it, he just didn't understand it. This is Andrew Sullivan you're talking about...

81 Zimriel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:19:53pm

re: #65 Soona'

Two questions: 1) Have the books been written? 2) Don't they have to go through any kind of approval by the various school districts like they do in our state?

To your question #1, Charles already told you that two of these guys already wrote one of these textbooks. Even if they don't throw Exploring Evolution itself at us, if you trust them to suddenly turn around and write a real science book, then you're being deliberately obtuse and I dub thee "troll".

As to #2, no. This is Texas. This board of six is the approval process. (Most states are more centralised. This is why I blame Texas for setting up this mess. California is similar and if they had a similarly crappy textbook, I'd have at that state too.)

82 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:20:08pm

re: #16 Soona'

Oh for pete's sake. Let Texas do what it wants to do. Or I should say, Texas doesn't care what anyone thinks, they're going to do what they want to do.

Normally I would agree, but in this case Texas (and California) have a major impact on what the remainder of the country end up purchasing for textbooks, and what textbook publishers produce. So this isn't just about Texas's rights as a state- this will affect textbooks from Maine to Ohio to Idaho. Frankly- I don't want pseudo-science in the textbooks of my state. If people want to teach their kids religion, they should do it at home not public schools.

83 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:20:14pm

You know, the entire creationism controversy would instantly disappear if schools were privatized or vouchers were given to all students.

Let parents decide.

84 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:20:53pm
85 pink freud  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:21:09pm

re: #44 mama winger

We have our own curriculum problem here in Southeastern Wisconsin. Racine Unified is using 8th grade textbooks extolling the virtues of Barack Obama - for 15 pages.
[Link: www.suntimes.com...]

Our battle is fighting socialism and leftist policies at the grade school level. It is all consuming and a very big threat. It threatens to indoctrinate our children at every level, in every subject.

It is not limited to the science class - it is in our reading classes, our literature classes, our math classes, our civics classes, our history classes, our social studies classes, - EVERYTHING.

The education system here in Wisconsin has become little more than a liberal playing field for leftists to indoctrinate our children into a culture and a way of life that bears little or no resemblance to the America I grew up in and that I love.

Ask your school administrators and teachers about this publication. This is pure socialism and is used in college education departments nationwide. (I know, I read the emails between the far-left liberal professors who teach the up-and-coming teachers. Yes, I work for one and I am responsible for all of his filing - personal and professional.) "Another group of fresh young malleable idealists just waiting for us to corrupt their minds." Yes, I see this.

This publication holds a lot of sway in the public school system. I read it cover to cover and wish I had known about this when my children were in the public education system. It's a well-kept secret, too ..... they do NOT want parents to know this is what guides their lesson plans and their ideologies.

Learn about it. Ask about it. Challenge it. This is one of the starting points and it is used in K-12.

86 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:21:40pm

re: #81 Zimriel

To your question #1, Charles already told you that two of these guys already wrote one of these textbooks. Even if they don't throw Exploring Evolution itself at us, if you trust them to suddenly turn around and write a real science book, then you're being deliberately obtuse and I dub thee "troll".

As to #2, no. This is Texas. This board of six is the approval process. (Most states are more centralised. This is why I blame Texas for setting up this mess. California is similar and if they had a similarly crappy textbook, I'd have at that state too.)

Zimriel -- the fact that Texas has a CENTRALIZED textbook vetting system may be the problem, not the solution. Let every district decide. Better yet, let the parents decide.

87 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:21:58pm
88 Noam Sayin'  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:22:22pm

re: #63 zombie

Looks like that post is getting picked up all over the place.

89 The Shadow Do  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:23:12pm

re: #78 gunjam

George Washington was a creationist.

Robert E. Lee was a creationist.

I am a creationist.

Is this a great country, or what?

I dare say anyone born before 1930 was a creationist.

90 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:23:25pm

Is not the world wonderful enough already, and can't you sense the Creator right in the here and now? I think so, and if you have to root around in the murk of the long past for your faith, then I think it must be pretty weak.

Sigh.

91 zombie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:23:38pm

re: #88 Noam Sayin'

Looks like that post is getting picked up all over the place.

I've counted two hundred links so far -- and that's probably only the tip of the iceberg.

Mostly, it's being emailed en masse on mailing lists.

92 gunjam  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:23:49pm

re: #73 hermeneutics

There appear to be more homeschooled families who are motivated by secular reasons -- lousy school environment -- than religious reasons. This is a change from the past. About ten years ago, most homeschoolers were Christian conservatives. Now, its a mix.

Um. You just said that Christians lead the way when it comes to important social changes -- such as home schooling...

... and I might add, as well, they have helped lead the way in challenging the evolutionists' dishonest lock-step monopoly over the science curricula in this country.

93 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:24:24pm
94 Zimriel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:25:31pm

"most states are more centralised" - LESS centralised. Gahh! PIMF

95 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:25:54pm

re: #76 Lynn B.

So true. But the courts tend to get irritated by these repeat offenders. If the DI gets assessed court costs and attorneys' fees in enough of these cases, the money will be returned to the school districts and the DI may (God willing) be put out of business.

I sure hope the courts start putting the burden of court costs on the DI and not punish our children more. The DI should be made to pay for the fraud they're committing on America's children.

96 odinga  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:26:15pm

Obama is a Media Creation; the Piltdown Man!

In the beginning there was nothing, and then for some reason "it" exploded.

This is a perfectly sound scientific explanation.

And there are an infinite number of alternate universes that are epistemologically isolated and distinct from ours such that we can never exchange information with them but indeed they do indeed coexist in some kind of hyper-dimensional manifold. Most of them are probably warped. I will have to get back to you on that one; you know they could be Riemannian or they could be curled up so small we can't see them. Some are no bigger than a Lilliputian.

So we can never really "know" that these alternate universes exist, but my equations show that they certainly do exist in an imaginary space that is simple to visualize when stoned. Yes take my word for it. This allows one to go on to explain the fine tuning of physical constants in our universe. We are just anthropically lucky. There is no Obama in the other universes. There is no carbon in many of them.

And in many, like this one, the mere mention of an "Intelligent Design Hypothesis" is sufficient to have one's scientific reputation subjected to the worst slander. Such heresy is NOT permitted.

The irrefutable tactic of the Ivory Tower Atheist Elites is to set up a one-to-one correspondence whereby every tenet of Biblical Literal Creationism has some counter part in the Intelligent Design Hypothesis such that the two spheres overlap with the greatest of blissful perfection.

It is the best way to stifle debate, and even punctuate equilibria.

The Ministry of Information has a new public service announcement.
Intelligent Design = Creationism.

97 Ojoe  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:26:26pm

re: #84 taxfreekiller

You go tfk!

Great post.

98 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:26:36pm

re: #92 gunjam


... and I might add, as well, they have helped lead the way in challenging the evolutionists' dishonest lock-step monopoly over the science curricula in this country.

Careful what you say, or the evil evolutionists are gonna come find you and eat you alive! Mwahahahahaha!

99 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:27:09pm

Next thing you know, they'll be teaching Marxism as a valid and successful political theory in political science courses.
Oh wait a minute, they are!

100 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:27:22pm

re: #92 gunjam

they have helped lead the way in challenging the evolutionists' dishonest lock-step monopoly over the science curricula in this country.

Perhaps you'd feel more comfortable in Saidia Arabia where "science" is regulated by the clergy.

101 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:28:01pm

re: #92 gunjam

I agree that the homeschooling movement was initiated by Christians who were disenchanted with what they perceived to be anti-Christian teachings and rhetoric in the public schools. In a way, homeschooling is the last frontier of liberty -- if they force parents to send their kids to approved schools, the raising of children will be monitored by the state.

Although I homeschool for secular reasons, I certainly support those who homeschool for any other reason.

102 gunjam  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:28:50pm

re: #63 zombie

Zombie: You and I may disagree about evolution (and we do!), but Congratulations on a super article -- and on making the "big time" in the blogosphere!

Well deserved!

103 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:28:56pm

re: #99 Kosh's Shadow

I read Marx in high school but I forget which course it was. Social studies or Literature.

104 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:29:28pm

re: #50 His Royal Highness

Why are you surprised by this Charles? This is the position of the Republican party!

Mind telling me where in the Republican Party platform it states we support creationism?

105 The Shadow Do  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:29:34pm

re: #93 buzzsawmonkey

I daresay you're wrong.

Corrected. My greater point was to gunjam for touting pre-Darwin creationists. Creation was not exactly challenged by Science until then would have been a more accurate statement I suppose.

106 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:29:39pm

I posted this on the last thread but I really want an answer so I'm posting it again here.

To our Lizard legal experts and lawyers:

What is the turn-around time for the OHio voter fraud case appearing before the Supreme Court?

How long do we wait when Ohio requested an emergency session?

Why is it going before Justice Brennan FIRST, and then to all of the Supremes?

Is this highly unusual, that is, requesting an emergency session?

107 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:30:10pm

re: #91 zombie

I've counted two hundred links so far -- and that's probably only the tip of the iceberg.

Mostly, it's being emailed en masse on mailing lists.

Hah! I started it!
Well, I contributed to it.

108 gunjam  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:30:28pm

re: #100 Killgore Trout


Perhaps you'd feel more comfortable in Saidia Arabia where "science" is regulated by the clergy.

What a stupid thing to say: America was founded by Christians (ever heard of the Mayflower Compact?), whereas KSA is dominated by (anti-Christian) Wahhabist forces.

109 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:30:42pm

re: #93 buzzsawmonkey

I daresay you're wrong.

Agreed. I first learned about Darwin's Origin of the Species from a natural science encyclopedia my mother gave me for my 4th birthday. She was born in 1913.

Her family, hard-core "Young Earthers" all, took her to task for giving me that instead of a Bible. Her response was, "He's already read through the Bible, twice. And its version of the origins of this planet and the life on it doesn't square with the facts."

My mother made me the skeptical, anti-social, ill-tempered curmudgeon who does not suffer fools at all (let alone gladly) that I am today.

Thank you, Mother.

cheers

eon

110 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:31:06pm

re: #103 Killgore Trout

I read Marx in high school but I forget which course it was. Social studies or Literature.

But did they teach it as a true theory, or a disproven one, like astrology (vs astronomy) or phlostigon in Chemistry, or Aristotle's 4 elements?
As a historically failed theory, it can be analyzed, and I think quite valuable to figure out why Marxism doesn't work.
But it should not be taught as a valid theory.

111 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:32:03pm
112 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:32:06pm

re: #109 eon

Just so you know, there are some of us who were raised in hard-core secular environments who remained skeptical about the answers that our parents gave us.

It goes both ways.

113 Soona'  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:32:18pm

re: #83 hermeneutics

You know, the entire creationism controversy would instantly disappear if schools were privatized or vouchers were given to all students.

Let parents decide.

With all the explanations I've been given and what I've read, I think perhaps this is just another example of what happens when the government runs anything.
But Texans are smart and most of them don't want anything crammed down their throats, especially if it goes against the majority's wishes. I'm sure that there's already pressure being applied to either end this or find a liveable middle. I just can't see most Texans agreeing with only a creationist point of veiw in their textbooks.

114 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:33:08pm

re: #108 gunjam

What a stupid thing to say: America was founded by Christians (ever heard of the Mayflower Compact?), whereas KSA is dominated by (anti-Christian) Wahhabist forces.

Your concept of science is the same as the Wahabis. The end result is still the same.

115 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:33:44pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Your concept of science is the same as the Wahabis. The end result is still the same.

Killgore -- I dearly like you, but isn't this a bit harsh?

116 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:34:02pm

re: #110 Kosh's Shadow

But did they teach it as a true theory, or a disproven one, like astrology (vs astronomy) or phlostigon in Chemistry, or Aristotle's 4 elements?
As a historically failed theory, it can be analyzed, and I think quite valuable to figure out why Marxism doesn't work.
But it should not be taught as a valid theory.

Personally, since the Communist Manifesto has been one of humanities most influential books, I think it should be taught in a purely literary way, along with others such as The Wealth of Nations and such. They can learn all about the failures of communism in history class.

117 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:34:04pm

Can you not wait 19 more days? We will all be in jail after then anyways.

118 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:34:19pm

re: #108 gunjam

What a stupid thing to say: America was founded by Christians fundamentalists (ever heard of the Mayflower Compact?), whereas KSA is dominated by (anti-Christian) Wahhabist fundamentalists forces.

119 phoenixgirl  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:34:39pm

killgore, seriously, you don't think the Christians are going to kill the evolutionists....

120 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:35:03pm
121 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:35:24pm

re: #119 phoenixgirl

killgore, seriously, you don't think the Christians are going to kill the evolutionists....

Ph Girl,

I'm still hoping to hear from you about the election day party? Can you make it? Email me, please.

122 _RememberTonyC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:35:33pm

OT ... but this is really funny ...

and the media thinks Gov Palin is a moron?

123 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:35:35pm
124 Zimriel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:36:28pm

re: #110 Kosh's Shadow

But did they teach it as a true theory, or a disproven one, like astrology (vs astronomy) or phlostigon in Chemistry, or Aristotle's 4 elements?
As a historically failed theory, it can be analyzed, and I think quite valuable to figure out why Marxism doesn't work.
But it should not be taught as a valid theory.

Marx is valid as a political theory. It's testable, for a start. Insofar as it parallels The Republic's theory of how democracy gives way to tyranny, and explains it as an outgrowth of underclass resentment, it's even partially true.

Unfortunately Marxism is also an economic theory, resting on the fallacy of "surplus value". That much is false. Mind you the original poster was talking about politics not economics.

125 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:36:37pm

re: #115 hermeneutics

Killgore -- I dearly like you, but isn't this a bit harsh?

Well, I think if you read enough of "gunjam's" posts you wouldn't think it was so harsh.

126 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:36:47pm

re: #123 buzzsawmonkey

If I recall correctly, Dolley Madison used it to powder her nose.

You are too funny. Love it.

127 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:37:36pm

re: #115 hermeneutics

Killgore -- I dearly like you, but isn't this a bit harsh?

I don't think he's being harsh at all. The DI and their ilk want to completely up-end science as we know it by redefining it from the foundation. Evolution is the club by which the DI intends to destroy scientific materialism.

128 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:37:41pm

So does anyone have any information on the Supreme Court process? Ohio voter fraud stuff?

I'm just so curious.

129 dentate  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:37:47pm

Would like to send them all this link:

[Link: www.cassiopeiaproject.com...]

130 FamHistoryGuy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:38:00pm

re: #64 Lynn B.

DI shapes it so that they are not parties to lawsuits. They encourage the school boards on what to include, but keep enough distance between the boards and themselves so they are not actionable.

131 swamprat  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:38:39pm

Lord, bless thou this thread, and smite its enemies in thy mercy.....

132 hermeneutics  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:38:48pm

I'm not getting involved in the Evolution crap. This isn't my issue. As a thorough-going libertarian, I just want everyone to decide for their own kids and pay the consequence, good or bad, for that decision.

Go fight among yourselves. I'm gone.

133 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:39:01pm

re: #130 FamHistoryGuy

DI shapes it so that they are not parties to lawsuits. They encourage the school boards on what to include, but keep enough distance between the boards and themselves so they are not actionable.

Sadly true.

134 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:39:04pm

re: #130 FamHistoryGuy

DI shapes it so that they are not parties to lawsuits. They encourage the school boards on what to include, but keep enough distance between the boards and themselves so they are not actionable.

What's funny is that if these boards want members of the DI to testify on their behalf, the board has to pay them!

135 phoenixgirl  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:39:26pm

re: #132 hermeneutics

bye hermeneutics.....i'll let you know about the party..........

136 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:41:00pm

re: #106 hermeneutics

I posted this on the last thread but I really want an answer so I'm posting it again here.

To our Lizard legal experts and lawyers:

What is the turn-around time for the OHio voter fraud case appearing before the Supreme Court?

How long do we wait when Ohio requested an emergency session?

Why is it going before Justice Brennan FIRST, and then to all of the Supremes?

Is this highly unusual, that is, requesting an emergency session?

Not a legal expert (ORC is my area), but as a Buckeye, I'm familiar with the case;

SecState Brunner has failed in her attempt to disobey the 6th Circuit COA's order to verify the registrations under question, mainly from ACORN. She is now appealing the COA decision to SCOTUS in an attempt to "run out the clock", to prevent action until after the election (when she hopes for a Democratic administration who will forgive, and thank, her for her actions). Justice Brennan's review is most likely an examination to determine if she does in fact have grounds for such an appeal. If not, she will be told "you have no case for an appeal", and the COA decision stands.

And incidentally, if she then fails to carry out 6th's order, she can be held in contempt of SCOTUS. That generally means that U.S. Marshals take you into custody.

The only reason I can think of for Miss Brunner to try a Hail Marx pass like this is that she knows damn well that those registrations are bogus, and will not pass verification. In which case, she then falls under the FEC investigation of ACORN under RICO.

Translation; she's either trying to avoid the Iron Bar Hotel, or is falling on her sword to protect somebody further up the chain of command.

I call the odds six-five and pick 'em.

cheers

eon

137 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:41:07pm

re: #130 FamHistoryGuy

DI shapes it so that they are not parties to lawsuits. They encourage the school boards on what to include, but keep enough distance between the boards and themselves so they are not actionable.

So they hope. And yet ... the dots are getting increasingly easy to connect. Sort of like filling in the fossil record. It's only a matter of time.

138 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:42:48pm

re: #134 Basho

What's funny is that if these boards want members of the DI to testify on their behalf, the board has to pay them!

And Michael Behe is money well spent. He ends up hurting the DI every time.

139 Zimriel  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:42:52pm

re: #136 eon

Miss Brunner to try a Hail Marx pass

Lulz

140 wiffersnapper  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:43:00pm

oh my Science!

141 Mr Spiffy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:44:17pm

OT:Are the Tampa Bay Rays evidence of Creation or Evolution?

Doesn't matter --GO RAYS!

142 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:45:01pm

OT.....

Those 5 Afghans missing from the UW (Seattle) have turned up.

Afghan scholars missing from UW now in Canada

The five Afghan scholars who vanished from the University of Washington last week are now in Canada — and may be seeking refugee asylum there.

U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement spokeswoman Lorie Dankers said the agency was able to confirm with the Canada Border Services Agency on Wednesday that the students are now in Canada. She had no more information, she added

143 mrsnuggles  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:46:00pm

Why do kids need to be taught creation, period? Its more of a personal belief than it is a scientific fact. If you want to talk about "evolution" as the basis of genetic differences in animals, thats fine, because we can see it every day when we look at our dogs and the bazillion different breeds that they have become.

144 Daffy Duck  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:47:11pm

re: #136 eon

Hail Marx pass

LOL, love it.

145 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:48:17pm

re: #132 hermeneutics

I'm not getting involved in the Evolution crap. This isn't my issue. As a thorough-going libertarian, I just want everyone to decide for their own kids and pay the consequence, good or bad, for that decision.

Go fight among yourselves. I'm gone.

It's unfortunate you want to turn a blind eye to this issue. For what it's worth, I too support educational choices such as home schooling, but that's NOT what the DI is doing. They don't want to indoctrinate their own kids- they want to indoctrinate other people's kids. That's about as un-Libertarian as you can get.

146 Soona'  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:48:24pm

It's the end of another day. Enjoyed myself. I'm gone.

147 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:48:25pm

re: #124 Zimriel

Marx is valid as a political theory. It's testable, for a start. Insofar as it parallels The Republic's theory of how democracy gives way to tyranny, and explains it as an outgrowth of underclass resentment, it's even partially true.

Unfortunately Marxism is also an economic theory, resting on the fallacy of "surplus value". That much is false. Mind you the original poster was talking about politics not economics.

Thanks for the correction.
And if we're talking about democracy giving way to tyranny, we might be watching it before our noses, especially of 0bama wins.
Moreso if he carries out his stated plans to prosecute the Bush administration, and restore the "fairness doctrine", etc.
Even more true since 0bama is a Marxist.

148 Roger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:48:44pm

If they teach the kids that all men are created equal as juxtaposed with the Divine Right of Kings, this be a good thing.

149 odinga  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:49:04pm

Really!

I am more worried about the 3 Creationists in Texas than having 3 Ruth Bader Ginsbergs appointed to the supreme court when Obama gets elected. So lets all go to Texas and protest. No need to worry about the silly little election. We need a good book burning.

Where are your priorities people?

In case you are wondering, I am a scientist and NOT a Creationists or Biblical Literalist.

Vote McCain.

150 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:49:21pm

re: #143 mrsnuggles

Why do kids need to be taught creation, period? Its more of a personal belief than it is a scientific fact.

Apparently, a few lessons in evolution will undo years of being taught those personal beliefs. Oddly though, when these same teachers tell these kids to study, work hard, and do their homework, the message doesn't seem to get through...

151 Lynn B.  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:49:28pm

If only there was a way to put a copy of Only a Theory and Creationism's Trojan Horse in every mailbox in Texas...

152 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:49:31pm

re: #115 hermeneutics

Not really. There are already theocratic societies that don't allow science and where clerics decide what is taught in schools. Those who need that kind of environment should move their and enjoy it instead of turning America into a backwards theocracy.

153 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:49:47pm

re: #131 swamprat

Lord, bless thou this thread, and smite its enemies in thy mercy.....

Reminds me of
"Bless this, thy holy hand grenade of Antioch, that with it, Thou mayest smote Thine enemies to tiny bits, in Thy mercy"

154 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:50:22pm

re: #149 odinga

This election will not be made or broken because of one thread on LGF. Get a grip.

Want to help McCain- go volunteer.

155 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:50:59pm

re: #149 odinga

Where are your priorities people?

You should prioritize which threads you go to so you don't waste time in threads you disapprove of...

156 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:51:12pm

re: #119 phoenixgirl

What's with all the strawman crap around here lately? I never said anything about that.

157 SnakeSpit  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:51:23pm

re: #53 Daffy Duck

Hope we haven't waited too long to join the battle. IMHO, the (D) candidate in this election is the product of too many years of the tactics you describe, already in action.

Agreed. I have seen more KOS type comments on this particular thread than any other in the past. You know, the old "If you don't agree with the great knowledgeable majority here, you are an idiot. If you speak up too loudly, you risk deletion, or maybe being banned.
Sorry, but this pisses me off.

158 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:53:06pm

re: #116 Basho

Personally, since the Communist Manifesto has been one of humanities most influential books, I think it should be taught in a purely literary way, along with others such as The Wealth of Nations and such. They can learn all about the failures of communism in history class.

The Communist Manifesto, A World Without Jews, and Das Kapital all make grievously incorrect historical claims as a form of empirical evidence 'proving' Marx's conjectures. That is a huge part of his modus operandi. Teaching it as literature exposes people to its ideas, but doesn't confront the incorrect historicity of Marx's arguments. Teaching it as literature perpetuates the myths of Marxism. The work can't be separated from its failings.

159 phoenixgirl  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:53:24pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

killgore, i'm sorry, my mind jumped to that conclusion.....

160 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:54:36pm

re: #159 phoenixgirl

Apology accepted. No worries.

161 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:55:56pm

re: #158 Scion9

The Communist Manifesto, A World Without Jews, and Das Kapital all make grievously incorrect historical claims as a form of empirical evidence 'proving' Marx's conjectures. That is a huge part of his modus operandi. Teaching it as literature exposes people to its ideas, but doesn't confront the incorrect historicity of Marx's arguments. Teaching it as literature perpetuates the myths of Marxism. The work can't be separated from its failings.

Well, when you read, sometimes you get exposed to false claims and crazy ideas. It's better to get a broad range of literature and learn not to believe what you always read.

162 phoenixgirl  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:55:58pm

re: #160 Killgore Trout

{killgore}

163 Mr Spiffy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:57:30pm

Isn't it too early for a dead thread?

164 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:57:45pm
165 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 4:59:49pm

re: #161 Basho

Well, when you read, sometimes you get exposed to false claims and crazy ideas. It's better to get a broad range of literature and learn not to believe what you always read.

Agreed. I keep Mein Kampf on the shelf right next to the complete writings of Lenin.

Know your enemy, and know yourself, and in a hundred battles you will never be in danger.

- Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

cheers

eon

166 hopperandadropper  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:00:35pm

As a Texan I am deeply embarrassed and ticked off about this. Rick Perry has been a pretty good governor in most respects, but he has deep connections with the fundamentalist bible-thumpin' types and has appointed far too many of them to the state school board. Absolutely deplorable.

167 Intrepid  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:00:42pm

re: #164 faraway

Video Obama makes fun of Joe the Plumber

Not only that, but egads! The "tanning bed media" (as Ed at Hot Air calls them) is going after poor Joe like they should have gone after Obama.

This will not sit well with middle America!

168 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:00:50pm

The more I read this, the more I think the textbook company is the real villain and the 3 creationists are just apparatchiks.

169 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:01:09pm

re: #164 faraway

Video Obama makes fun of Joe the Plumber

What a dick. He's feeling the pressure. This video needs to be seen.

170 The Archivist  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:02:34pm

If you haven't seen this anecdotal evidence that we're being fed a bowl of lies by the media:

[Link: www.redstate.com...]

171 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:03:21pm

re: #161 Basho

So would you then be ok with teaching these Creationism textbooks as 'literature'? It's about the same argument. They make claims using 'science' in a blatantly dishonest way in order to indoctrinate.

Marx uses the same tactics with ridiculous historical analysis, arguments from authority, cod philosophy, in order to indoctrinate the audience. It's not literature any more than these proposed textbooks are.

172 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:03:38pm

Drink!

173 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:04:20pm

re: #70 Bubblehead II

No credit and it is an ELECTIVE course, so no coercion to attend. I find it to be IMHO a most elegant solution to the separation of Church and State clause.

Just remember this, it is ONLY AVAILABLE to High School students.

I've been off reading the fun over at zombie's place, but here is a late reply.

So what you are saying is that they can fulfill an elective in their public education by attending this class. That sounds like a credit to me, and borders on a violation of separation Church and State as it is currently, and IMHO incorrectly, applied.
This leaves them open to litigation, but given the area and what I remember of it from my days in Idaho Falls, there doesn't seem to be a big chance of that happening. This would never fly for long down here in the People's Republic of California. Too many thin skinned kooks.

174 realwest  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:05:51pm

Hey y'all Drive by post - hate to go OT, but Charles, if you're around, there's a clean up necessary on #368 on the prior thread!

175 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:05:53pm

It's time to get the torches and pitchforks wrenches.
I am Joe the Plumber.

176 willowone  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:06:54pm

re: #167 Intrepid
the are in disbelief that acerage -six-pack-plumber knows more about finance than they do.

177 Archimedes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:06:54pm

re: #164 faraway

Video Obama makes fun of Joe the Plumber

He's a plumber working toward the American Dream. That's our right, Obama. We have the right to pursue the American Dream without the government looting us.

178 dentate  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:07:19pm

re: #169 Who Watches the Watchmen?

What a dick. He's feeling the pressure. This video needs to be seen.

I see. So it's OK to be a plumber, but the really SUCCESSFUL ones should be punished! How dare they.

Unbelievable.

179 odinga  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:07:57pm

re: #155 Basho

You should prioritize which threads you go to so you don't waste time in threads you disapprove of...

You should prioritize the posts you read so that you don't waste time on posts you disapprove of...

180 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:08:09pm

re: #165 eon

Agreed. I keep Mein Kampf on the shelf right next to the complete writings of Lenin.

Know your enemy, and know yourself, and in a hundred battles you will never be in danger.

- Sun Tzu, The Art Of War

cheers

eon

However......
With an Ayers or ilk as Sec. Ed. Gramsci, Marx, Lenin won't be taught critically. Zinn's People's History of the United States is a popular history text in schools. But it's a Chompskite view of America.

We need the a return to the teaching of critical thinking skills first.

Then the literature of Marx et. al. can be introduced, and for that matter Creationism in comparative reiligions can be taught (not in science). Because we've instilled the thinking skills in the students.

181 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:08:36pm

re: #169 Who Watches the Watchmen?

What a dick. He's feeling the pressure. This video needs to be seen.

Not only is Obama a dick, but the more he opens his trap, the more we find out about him. When he talked to "Joe he Plumber" he didn't say the more you make the more taxes you should pay which although we all hate to pay taxes is a pretty well accepted American philosophy. NOOOOO he said we have to "spread the wealth around". Now that is right out out of the Marxist-Lenin Commie play book. G-D save us all! Vote!

182 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:10:17pm

re: #167 Intrepid

Not only that, but egads! The "tanning bed media" (as Ed at Hot Air calls them) is going after poor Joe like they should have gone after Obama.

This will not sit well with middle America!

Clueless, the lot of them.

Making fun of us peasants is great sport for the "enlightened elite", I know, but they never seem to learn that it will bite them on the a$$ every four years, regular as clockwork.

Of course, I've also noticed over the years that those residing within the progressive echo chamber apparently do not understand that outside of The Only Places That Matter (Washington, LA, San Francisco, NYC, Chicago), when someone refers to you or your chosen standard bearer as a "hustler" it is not intended as a compliment. Unless, equally of course, you happen to be a delta-winged, four-engined, supersonic jet bomber formerly used by SAC.

/which AFAIK is ineligible to vote or run for office

cheers

eon

183 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:11:04pm
184 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:12:39pm

Holy shit- Tampa Bay up 2-0 with not outs in the top of the first. Break up the Rays!

185 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:12:45pm

This crap the leftists bastards are pulling on Joe the Plumber is really getting my blood to boil.

I AM JOE THE PLUMBER.

186 least  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:12:58pm

Thanks Charles, we haven't heard from Sal for days.

187 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:13:28pm

re: #73 hermeneutics

There appear to be more homeschooled families who are motivated by secular reasons -- lousy school environment -- than religious reasons. This is a change from the past. About ten years ago, most homeschoolers were Christian conservatives. Now, its a mix.

Indeed. Even in my neck of the woods (clingy SW Virginia) we have quite a few home-schoolers that do not fit the "evangelical" mold. There are homeschoolers down the road from us, for example, that would best be described as hippie do-it-yourselfers. (They prefer the term "unschooling.") Then there's my Chilean friend who can't stand the undisciplined environment and general silliness of the schools. Or the wolves themselves, who want a more Eurocentric, classical education based on logic, Latin, and the old Western canon.......the kind of curriculum that teaches geography and history instead of "social studies, e.g"

188 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:13:45pm

re: #185 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

This crap the leftists bastards are pulling on Joe the Plumber is really getting my blood to boil.

I AM JOE THE PLUMBER.

I thought I'm Sarah Palin. Shit this is getting ocnfusing?

189 Cognito  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:13:51pm

What's happenin'.

190 least  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:14:01pm

re: #185 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

This crap the leftists bastards are pulling on Joe the Plumber is really getting my blood to boil.

I AM JOE THE PLUMBER.

Lots of us are.

191 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:14:46pm

re: #188 Nevergiveup

I thought I'm Sarah Palin. Shit this is getting ocnfusing?

Check your...er... equipment.

That will answer it for ya.

192 Outrider  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:14:49pm

re: #73 hermeneutics

There appear to be more homeschooled families who are motivated by secular reasons -- lousy school environment -- than religious reasons. This is a change from the past. About ten years ago, most homeschoolers were Christian conservatives. Now, its a mix.

Our granddaughter is being home schooled by her Mother and myself. Religion has nothing at all to do with the decision to home school; rather the curriculum, disciplinary problems, and crowded classes at the local schools that had the largest impact. She learns much more at a faster pace with fewer hours being spent away from home. Previously, as a kindergartner she had to catch a bus at ten till 7 in the morning and got home at 4 in the afternoon. That is way too long for a child that age to be at school or on a bus.

193 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:15:15pm

re: #185 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

This crap the leftists bastards are pulling on Joe the Plumber is really getting my blood to boil.

I AM JOE THE PLUMBER.

And one other thing--only a moron would insult a plumber. Wait till Obama's toilet backs up?

194 Cognito  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:16:04pm

re: #193 Nevergiveup

And one other thing--only a moron would insult a plumber. Wait till Obama's toilet backs up?

Unfortunately a whole army of plumbers is right there at Obama's beck.

195 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:16:15pm
196 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:17:35pm

re: #193 Nevergiveup

And one other thing--only a moron would insult a plumber. Wait till Obama's toilet backs up?

It won't stink. Though. He says so himself.

197 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:17:38pm

re: #174 realwest

Hey y'all Drive by post - hate to go OT, but Charles, if you're around, there's a clean up necessary on #368 on the prior thread!

That one irritated me enough to collect my very first downding.

Still a bit sick to my stomach after clicking on it. Ugh.

Please delete it, Sir.

Thank You.

eon

198 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:18:41pm

re: #193 Nevergiveup

And one other thing--only a moron would insult a plumber. Wait till Obama's toilet backs up?

And with all that arugula he's eating, well, you know...

199 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:18:57pm

re: #193 Nevergiveup

And one other thing--only a moron would insult a plumber. Wait till Obama's toilet backs up?

His craps' been backing up for a while.

200 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:19:54pm

Plumbers Unite. Si Si Puede.

201 capefear  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:20:42pm

What ever happened to States rights? How about parents rights?
If the majority of Texans want ID taught in their schools they should
have every right to have it taught. Exactly what threat does it pose a child if they hear that there is an alternative teaching to Darwinism, that scientists, who know a lot more about the subject than most of the people posting on this thread know, believe?

Exactly what dreadful harm do you all see for the future of these poor unfortunate children who may end up believing in a creator? If they want to become scientists, surely if evolution is so undeniably clear, they will find out through their on-going studies, right?

As far as believing the earth was created in 24 hour days. They are not going to be teaching them that. They aren't even going to offer an idea of who the creator might be.

With all of the garbage and indoctrination being taught in the schools today, for all you to get this bent out of shape over this is amazing. Our children are being taught relativism, anti-americanism, really hedonism, I could go on, not only in classrooms but just about everywhere in this society. You can read about the harm this is doing by picking up a newpaper.

To hear people express the fact that they "they don't want this making them look stupid". I'm sorry to break it to you, but you already look stupid to the left. The fact that you defend Israel, is stupid to them. The fact that you would vote for McCain, makes you look stupid to them. If your worried about looking stupid you better change parties.

202 JacksonTn  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:21:10pm

Can I just say for the record ........ I AM F*CKING DONE WITH BILL O'RIELLY ..... he is so far up Senator Government's ass ...... he is actually defending him on Ayers on his show ........

203 Colonel Panik  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:21:19pm

re: #141 Mr Spiffy

OT:Are the Tampa Bay Rays evidence of Creation or Evolution?

Doesn't matter --GO RAYS!

Rays, and their cousins sharks, are among the oldest species of fish.

204 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:21:57pm

re: #164 faraway

Video Obama makes fun of Joe the Plumber

What's he going to do when his toilet backs up?

205 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:22:03pm

I wonder if Obama’s brother has a license.

206 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:22:29pm

re: #202 JacksonTn

Can I just say for the record ........ I AM F*CKING DONE WITH BILL O'RIELLY ..... he is so far up Senator Government's ass ...... he is actually defending him on Ayers on his show ........

Laura should have ripped his lungs out.

That was sad.

/but don't worry, he'll defend her when they come for her...

207 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:23:41pm

re: #202 JacksonTn

Can I just say for the record ........ I AM F*CKING DONE WITH BILL O'RIELLY ..... he is so far up Senator Government's ass ...... he is actually defending him on Ayers on his show ........

Just like McCain he is under the impression that if he sucks up to the liberal elite they will like him. Fool!

208 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:23:49pm

re: #202 JacksonTn

Can I just say for the record ........ I AM F*CKING DONE WITH BILL O'RIELLY ..... he is so far up Senator Government's ass ...... he is actually defending him on Ayers on his show ........

I thought the exact same thing. The only thing I can think of is that some obamathugs with dark shades and baseball bats went by his office a couple of months or so and explained to O'Rielly what his tone would be from here on, or else. Because sitting in Obama's lap and cooing the way he is doing is NOT, in ANY way, Looking Out For You.

209 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:25:06pm

re: #201 capefear

States and parents do not have the right to violate the Constitution by teaching religion in public schools.

You are obviously under-informed about the true nature of the Disco Institute. This has nothing to do with teaching the children of parents who already agree with the DI and creationism- this has everything to do with the DI and their ilk getting their hands on other people's children.

210 nyc redneck  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:25:18pm

re: #202 JacksonTn

Can I just say for the record ........ I AM F*CKING DONE WITH BILL O'RIELLY ..... he is so far up Senator Government's ass ...... he is actually defending him on Ayers on his show ........

i can't watch that pompous creep.
go to animal planet. there is a great show on abt. POISONOUS SNAKES.
it is far more interesting.

211 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:25:50pm

Reading, Riting, and Rithmatic.

212 Outrider  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:26:01pm

re: #201 capefear

What ever happened to States rights? How about parents rights?
If the majority of Texans want ID taught in their schools they should
have every right to have it taught. Exactly what threat does it pose a child if they hear that there is an alternative teaching to Darwinism, that scientists, who know a lot more about the subject than most of the people posting on this thread know, believe?

Exactly what dreadful harm do you all see for the future of these poor unfortunate children who may end up believing in a creator? If they want to become scientists, surely if evolution is so undeniably clear, they will find out through their on-going studies, right?

As far as believing the earth was created in 24 hour days. They are not going to be teaching them that. They aren't even going to offer an idea of who the creator might be.

With all of the garbage and indoctrination being taught in the schools today, for all you to get this bent out of shape over this is amazing. Our children are being taught relativism, anti-americanism, really hedonism, I could go on, not only in classrooms but just about everywhere in this society. You can read about the harm this is doing by picking up a newpaper.

To hear people express the fact that they "they don't want this making them look stupid". I'm sorry to break it to you, but you already look stupid to the left. The fact that you defend Israel, is stupid to them. The fact that you would vote for McCain, makes you look stupid to them. If your worried about looking stupid you better change parties.

Speaking of worrying about looking stupid, something you are apparently not concerned with.

There is little point in sending a child to school if they are not going to receive a good education well grounded in science. Religion should be taught in church not science class. Once instruction is started in religion classes in public schools, which religion gets taught as pseudo-science.

Stay with science. Well documented, proven science.

213 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:26:02pm

re: #208 cliffster

I thought the exact same thing. The only thing I can think of is that some obamathugs with dark shades and baseball bats went by his office a couple of months or so and explained to O'Rielly what his tone would be from here on, or else. Because sitting in Obama's lap and cooing the way he is doing is NOT, in ANY way, Looking Out For You.

I don't have satellite or cable, and I haven't seen Bill O'R in years.

Sounds like I'm not missing anything useful.

cheers

eon

214 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:26:12pm
215 Quad Mocha Matti  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:26:27pm

re: #202 JacksonTn

Can I just say for the record ........ I AM F*CKING DONE WITH BILL O'RIELLY ..... he is so far up Senator Government's ass ...... he is actually defending him on Ayers on his show ........

Oh, he's been a joke to me for quite a while....all his BLOVIATING and "It's my job to look out for the FOLKS" lines just make me gag. I think O'reily calling Bahnee Fwank a coward was just a case of the pot calling the kettle black, um, er, well, the word that is associated with the absence of color. Gee, that didn't sound much better.

216 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:27:58pm

Megyn Kelly, on the other hand, is a badass.

217 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:28:50pm
[Philip] Johnson calls his movement "The Wedge." The objective, he said, is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to "the truth" of the Bible and then "the question of sin" and finally "introduced to Jesus."

[Link: findarticles.com...]

Yeah- because this is really about "states rights". And if you believe that, I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to show you.

218 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:29:05pm

re: #216 cliffster

Megyn Kelly, on the other hand, is a badass.

How about giving her Bill O'R's job?

/or Amanda Carpenter, for that matter?

cheers

eon

219 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:29:18pm

re: #192 Outrider

Your grand-daughter is soooo lucky to have you!

220 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:30:08pm

A Dubai court sentenced two Britons to three months in prison on Thursday and ordered their subsequent deportation for having sex on a beach in the booming Muslim Gulf emirate.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

I guess I gotta cancell my reservations for that sex vacation in Dubai? Oh wait it was with that man-boy love association. That's ok over there isn't it?
/

221 Tigger2005  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:30:19pm

We need to find some way to convince these so-called "social conservatives" that they are fighting the wrong battle, they're wasting their time, money, and energy on the WRONG THING!

I consider myself a political, economic, and social conservative. I don't find this I.D. stuff "conservative" at all. It is radical, it is anti-Constitutional, and in the long run it is DAMAGING to our country's scientific and economic standing, not to mention its moral and spiritual integrity. Strong countries are built on TRUTH, not on lies and deception!

These fools are in their own way just as harmful as the liberal moonbats.

222 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:30:45pm
223 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:31:42pm

And let us not forget who else supports the Wedge.

224 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:32:32pm

re: #181 Nevergiveup

Not only is Obama a dick, but the more he opens his trap, the more we find out about him. When he talked to "Joe he Plumber" he didn't say the more you make the more taxes you should pay which although we all hate to pay taxes is a pretty well accepted American philosophy. NOOOOO he said we have to "spread the wealth around". Now that is right out out of the Marxist-Lenin Commie play book. G-D save us all! Vote!

Spread the wealth.

*&^$ that shit.

Life
Liberty
Property

See if you can follow the logic Obama.

Do I have the right to my life? I mean can the government arbitrarily take my life? I'm not talking about being convicted in a court of law with due process and condemned to die. I'm talking can the government legislatively take my life? Or take the lives of a whole class of people?

A reasonable enlightened person would say NO, government cannot take a life in that manner.

Next step, if you can keep up Obambi.
Liberty: Do I have the right to live that life (see above) as I see fit? To provide for myself, in a manner I choose. As long as my liberty doesn't infringe on the person next to me. Do I have the liberty to use, to live my life as I choose?

Again reasonable enlightened person would say a person has the liberty to live their life unfettered.

Here's the tough jump B. Hussein, this is where most people fall into chasm of Gramscian Whoredom (as you have). Property, I use Locks's words and not Jefferson's very intentionally. Property is tangible, something people can put they hands on and understand. Here is the leap....
Life = Property
We've agreed to the right to life, the right to liberty. Here's the thing. I use my liberty I use my life time to obtain things; fundamental things, food and water; necessary things, shelter and warmth; things I just want, art and music. Things are property, whether land, money in the bank or an antique clock it's all property. How did I get these things? I used my life, my liberty to obtained them. I learned skills, I worked, I in effect exchange a finite and definable portion of my life, expended using my liberty to obtain that thing.

If you think about it, you should be able to calculate how much of you life that latte, that car, that vacation, that house costs in minutes, hours or years.

We've established that government cannot arbitrarily deprive me of my life. How then can government arbitrarily deprive me of a portion of my life, of my liberty?

I will consent to using a portion of my property for things that benefit all equally, infrastructure, defense, etc...

Spread the wealth. Depriving me of my life liberty and property to give it to some one else? You might as well kill all those that life past the average age, it's the same principal, except we all know that would benefit anyone because life itself is nontransferable.

Out of fairness you say? It's fair to take from someone who has labored an and spent time to acquired a thing, to give it to someone else who has not?

That's not fair, that's called theft.

225 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:32:41pm

re: #216 cliffster

Megyn Kelly, on the other hand, is a badass.

Meh. She is an equal opportunity pitbull when it comes time to grilling guests. She isn't bad as far as Television 'journalists' go, but she isn't a pundit.

226 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:32:44pm

re: #218 eon

How about giving her Bill O'R's job?

/or Amanda Carpenter, for that matter?

cheers

eon

That sounds pretty good, but I think the slot she has is in her sweet spot. Lots of different topics, conversational, not the conventional talk show format. If she could set up a prime time format that lets her intelligence and funniness out, I'd give my fox-news-green-light.

227 The Archivist  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:32:47pm

Thanks, eon, for the link to the Hot Air post. I especially liked the summation:

So what have we learned from this episode?

1. Thou shalt not offend The One by asking him a question. Of any kind.
2. Anyone who questions The One will have to undergo a public pillorying of a kind unseen since the Red Scare, or perhaps the Inquisition.
3. The Tanning-Bed Media will happily participate in any inquisition, as long as it keeps them from investigating irrelevant issues like Obama’s ties to the Chicago Machine, William Ayers, ACORN, or his record on protecting infanticide.

[Link: hotair.com...]

228 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:34:06pm

Good evening, lizards.

I want to wake up November 5th with a victorious President John McCain holding up the New York Times with the headlines "Obama Wins".

229 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:34:29pm

re: #225 Scion9

Meh. She is an equal opportunity pitbull when it comes time to grilling guests. She isn't bad as far as Television 'journalists' go, but she isn't a pundit.

She's funny as hell and smart as hell too. O'Reilly is now having the most boring conversation I have ever heard with John Stossel (sp?)

230 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:34:38pm

re: #228 jorline

Good evening, lizards.

I want to wake up November 5th with a victorious President John McCain holding up the New York Times with the headlines "Obama Wins".

That would be truly epic.

231 odinga  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:35:20pm

8th grade textbook has Barack Obama chapter. Now this is a text book I think we should really be worried about!

Obama Created the Universe

232 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:35:46pm

re: #16 Soona'

Oh for pete's sake. Let Texas do what it wants to do. Or I should say, Texas doesn't care what anyone thinks, they're going to do what they want to do.

Texas ia not a single monolithic entity. I'm quite certain that there are many, many Texans who utterly deplore this being done to their kids, but Genesis literalists have seized control of the process and disenfranchized them.

233 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:35:53pm

re: #229 cliffster

Bill O'Reilly boring? The dickens you say!

Yeah. Is it about Stossel's 20/20 piece encouraging stupid people not to vote?

234 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:36:33pm

re: #230 Scion9

That would be truly epic.

Drudge Headlines;

GALLUP SHOCK: 49 OBAMA, 47 MCCAIN WITH LIKELY VOTERS

Polls are all over the place.

235 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:37:13pm

re: #233 Scion9

Bill O'Reilly boring? The dickens you say!

Yeah. Is it about Stossel's 20/20 piece encouraging stupid people not to vote?

zzzzzzzzzzzzz, wha? hunh? Oh, I'm not sure.

236 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:37:33pm

re: #234 jorline

Drudge Headlines;

GALLUP SHOCK: 49 OBAMA, 47 MCCAIN WITH LIKELY VOTERS

Polls are all over the place.

Well if Poland's economy were better, maybe they would stay at home?

237 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:37:38pm

re: #222 buzzsawmonkey

Yo deseo que mis ninos son instruidos que este lengua es Ingles. Tu dices que este lengua no es Ingles? No importa; es mi derecho!

That right has already been taken away by the free-thinkers and libs.

Find another example.

238 mean Gene  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:38:08pm

So it is strange to me that the prof from the Southern Methodist University is OK.
One would think they'd want a creationist or an ID'er at a religious institution of higher learning.

239 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:38:46pm

re: #232 Salamantis

Texas ia not a single monolithic entity. I'm quite certain that there are many, many Texans who utterly deplore this being done to their kids, but Genesis literalists have seized control of the process and disenfranchized them.

It won't pass...it will never survive Austin.

240 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:39:13pm

re: #239 jorline

It won't pass...it will never survive Austin.

I'll second that.

241 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:39:14pm

re: #234 jorline

The reason the polls are pulling back are two-fold. 1) they can't be overly wrong- it's bad for business; 2) even the 0bama campaign has stated they felt 0bama's numbers were inflated and McCain's deflated.

Now we might actually be able to see some real numbers from the polling outlets. Time will tell, and there is still only one poll that matters.

242 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:39:24pm

re: #234 jorline

Drudge Headlines;

GALLUP SHOCK: 49 OBAMA, 47 MCCAIN WITH LIKELY VOTERS

Polls are all over the place.

Or maybe they finally polled somebody other than DU and Kos?

cheers

eon

243 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:39:42pm

re: #238 mean Gene

So it is strange to me that the prof from the Southern Methodist University is OK.
One would think they'd want a creationist or an ID'er at a religious institution of higher learning.

Why would one think that?

244 Hobbes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:40:06pm

I think the real issue with "Joe The Plumber" is not necessarily what he asked,
but what Obama's response was..."Sharing the wealth"!

All this attention on Joe (great guy though he is) is confusing the issue. Obama
wants a socialist society and has become very blatent about that. The MSM,
again, is covering for the "One" by making the story Joe and not Obama!

245 Outrider  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:40:19pm

Cool. Granddaughter number two just took her first real step. Twice. A whole new chapter just opened. yikes! lol

246 mean Gene  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:40:50pm

I don't know, Texan.
Do only ID'ers require litmus tests?
I thought it was all religious folks.
And all irreligious leftists in the Senate.

247 Dave the.....  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:40:55pm
The other author is Ralph Seelke, a biology professor at the University of Wisconsin-Superior.

Hey, that is my college! Actually liked going there. Rather moderate/non-political college, but I dropped out of the alumni group when they went after the Christian student group. I emailed the FIRE lawyer working on the case and he thought the wackjobs (my words, not his) in Madison were calling the shots.

248 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:41:59pm

There goes WA..........

24,000 felons will receive ballots for November election

Hot on the heels of our lawsuit against Sam Reed for allowing 16 and 17-year-olds to register and vote, another of Reed's failures to secure our election system is about to hit the airwaves. Check out the following press release I received today from KIRO TV:

Approximately 24,000 convicted felons will get ballots in the mail, despite a probability these criminals are ineligible to vote.

This is no mistake or oversight. Halsne discovered the new elections computer system was intentionally programmed to preclude a vast number of felons.

249 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:42:47pm

Man found at NY airport with bomb, weapons; court denies bail

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

The 20-year-old Las Vegas man showed up in court wearing a black T-shirt featuring a machine gun and green glow-in-the-dark skulls, and was promptly denied bail.

Now that's how you dress when you want to influence the judge?

250 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:42:47pm

re: #244 Hobbes

You make a very good point. All day long the MSM has been in auto-destroy mode over this guy. They gave him the full Palin treatment.

251 BakaRanger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:42:52pm

re: #202 JacksonTn

Can I just say for the record ........ I AM F*CKING DONE WITH BILL O'RIELLY ..... he is so far up Senator Government's ass ...... he is actually defending him on Ayers on his show ........

It looks like Glen Beck is to take over the 5:00 PM time slot. Bill O has been on the wrong side of a lot of issues lately. Unfair and unbalanced.

252 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:42:57pm
253 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:43:02pm

re: #244 Hobbes

I think the real issue with "Joe The Plumber" is not necessarily what he asked,
but what Obama's response was..."Sharing the wealth"!

All this attention on Joe (great guy though he is) is confusing the issue. Obama
wants a socialist society and has become very blatent about that. The MSM,
again, is covering for the "One" by making the story Joe and not Obama!

Excellent point. However, since Sen. Obama will NOT be asked ANY serious questions by the media on this topic, how fortunate for us that they will explore the subject, however accidentally, by pushing Joe's story.

254 nigella  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:43:26pm

I know this is way OT, but just checked the top stories from AP and they have the McCain lobbyist affair story. This time the Lobbyist is denying the affair. Why would the MSM be dragging this out again? Well it probably has something to do with the fact that McCain stung Obama last night. I guess you all know they tried to destroy Joe the plumber. This is really scaring me. I feel like we are in Communist Russia.

255 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:43:40pm

re: #248 jcm

There goes WA..........

24,000 felons will receive ballots for November election

Maybe they are all members of the Aryan Nation?
/

256 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:44:38pm

re: #255 Nevergiveup

Maybe they are all members of the Aryan Nation?
/

That's Idaho......
/

257 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:44:47pm

re: #173 CyanSnowHawk
I've been off reading the fun over at zombie's place, but here is a late reply.

-No problem. I have been wandering as well.-

So what you are saying is that they can fulfill an elective in their public education by attending this class. That sounds like a credit to me, and borders on a violation of separation Church and State as it is currently, and IMHO incorrectly, applied.
This leaves them open to litigation, but given the area and what I remember of it from my days in Idaho Falls, there doesn't seem to be a big chance of that happening. This would never fly for long down here in the People's Republic of California. Too many thin skinned kooks.
-------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------
I repeat NO CREDIT for these courses. It is a voluntary choice.

If the student has the required credits in the CORE classes to graduate, they are allowed to take these ELECTIVE classes

So a student wants to take the course. Fine. He/She/It get no credit for it and the district/State doesn't pay for it.

As long as the Student has the required credits in the CORE classes to properly graduate, I don't see/have a problem with them taking a religious based course during school hours. It beats the hell out of them leaving the school grounds to do what? I leave that last question open to inquiring minds. I know what I did with my "free time"

258 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:45:08pm

re: #222 buzzsawmonkey

Yo deseo que mis ninos son instruidos que este lengua es Ingles. Tu dices que este lengua no es Ingles? No importa; es mi derecho!

A solid majority of Hispanics in this country want their kids to learn English.
The "bi-lingual" education scam is run by the government.
Show me a kid graduating from high-school who still does not speak fluent English, and I will bet my life he went to a public school.
Parents, given the choice, will not send their kids to a school that does not prepare them for success in the world.
If a private school teaches something absurd or unconstructive, and if it actually manages to survive, it will not spread its poison far.
A whole school system, OTOH, .......................

259 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:45:25pm

re: #254 nigella

I know this is way OT, but just checked the top stories from AP and they have the McCain lobbyist affair story. This time the Lobbyist is denying the affair. Why would the MSM be dragging this out again? Well it probably has something to do with the fact that McCain stung Obama last night. I guess you all know they tried to destroy Joe the plumber. This is really scaring me. I feel like we are in Communist Russia.

I believe she denied it the last time it came up..

260 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:45:35pm

re: #256 jcm

That's Idaho......
/

I was talking about the prison gang? What's their name?

261 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:45:52pm

re: #246 mean Gene

I don't know, Texan.
Do only ID'ers require litmus tests?
I thought it was all religious folks.
And all irreligious leftists in the Senate.

You thought wrong, IMO.

However, don't take my word for it. Southern Methodist University has an extensive history in the sciences, as does Baylor (Baptist-sponsored), and they both have websites, etc.

I am sure there a few nuts in the mix at both. HOWEVER, that is true at the most "secular" institution as well.

262 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:46:09pm

re: #254 nigella

I know this is way OT, but just checked the top stories from AP and they have the McCain lobbyist affair story. This time the Lobbyist is denying the affair. Why would the MSM be dragging this out again? Well it probably has something to do with the fact that McCain stung Obama last night. I guess you all know they tried to destroy Joe the plumber. This is really scaring me. I feel like we are in Communist Russia.

Speaking of affairs;
Where's Tim Mahoney? 2 years ago at this time it was wall to wall Mark Foley in the media.

263 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:46:12pm

re: #254 nigella

Because they're are desperate to change the narrative away from Joe Plumber and onto anything that could damage McCain.

264 itellu3times  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:46:19pm

How many people here think Obama was intelligently designed?

265 Scion9  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:46:48pm

re: #260 Nevergiveup

I was talking about the prison gang? What's their name?

The Aryan Brotherhood? Aryan Nation is the name of a gang though.

266 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:46:55pm
267 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:46:56pm

re: #241 Sharmuta

The reason the polls are pulling back are two-fold. 1) they can't be overly wrong- it's bad for business; 2) even the 0bama campaign has stated they felt 0bama's numbers were inflated and McCain's deflated.

Now we might actually be able to see some real numbers from the polling outlets. Time will tell, and there is still only one poll that matters.

Excellent first point, Sharm. Between pre-election and exit polls they've provided flawed numbers the last two elections.

268 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:47:14pm

re: #260 Nevergiveup

I was talking about the prison gang? What's their name?

Sorry don't hang out there much!


I vaguely recall that, yes. Don't remember......

269 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:47:47pm

re: #252 buzzsawmonkey

Strictly speaking, Spanish isn't being passed off as English, but being touted as co-equal to it--while creationism is at least attempting to pass itself off as science. But since there is a parallel track which says that the two are co-equal, perhaps you are right, and I should have used French being passed off as German.

OK, just don't use that in Alsace-Lorraine.

/

270 itellu3times  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:47:52pm

How many people here think Texas was intelligently designed?

271 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:47:58pm

re: #256 jcm

Mighty wide brush you are using there. Care to show some links proving that statement?

272 mean Gene  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:48:13pm

The article doesn't name the profs so as to check.
If there's no litmus test why assume any of these guys will push creationism or it's ilk on the Texas Public Schools?

And wouldn't any of them be outvoted anyway?

273 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:48:41pm

re: #242 eon

Or maybe they finally polled somebody other than DU and Kos?

cheers

eon

I received my first call ever last night before the debate.

274 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:48:52pm

re: #270 itellu3times

How many people here think Texas was intelligently designed?

Remember the Alamo!

275 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:49:57pm

re: #271 Bubblehead II

Mighty wide brush you are using there. Care to show some links proving that statement?

Hence the tag. Richard Butler and his little group of [deleteds] out at Sand Point. Now long gone thankfully.

276 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:50:07pm

re: #270 itellu3times

How many people here think Texas was intelligently designed?

There it is, folks. Huge hanging softball, coming in low and slow.

277 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:50:14pm

Some of what the Discovery Institute teaches is that the earth is in a special place in the universe.

Some scientists might agree.

Scientists: Earth May Exist in Giant Cosmic Bubble

278 nigella  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:50:42pm

Well all I can say is hold on to your hats it gonna get bumpy! I wonder if the MSM is going to produce a new"scandal" everyday until the election? You want to know what I think is a scandal is Obama going on TV by himself for a half hour and having the World Series agree to start latter. They wouldn't even do that for Bush, WTF?Can't wait to not watch!

279 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:52:01pm

re: #277 FrogMarch

Some of what the Discovery Institute teaches is that the earth is in a special place in the universe.

Some scientists might agree.

Scientists: Earth May Exist in Giant Cosmic Bubble

Put away the pin Frog, do not poke the bubble!

280 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:52:18pm

re: #78 gunjam

George Washington was a creationist.

Robert E. Lee was a creationist.

I am a creationist.

Is this a great country, or what?

The first of the two wasn't still around to read Origin of Species; the second was too busy generalling the losing end of a civil war when it came out.

What's your excuse?

281 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:52:18pm

Hmmm, Ayers and crew wants to teach Socialism. Discovery Institute wants to teach Intelligent Design. I might be too young to be this old-fashioned, but it just doesn't make good sense. Learn math, chemistry, physics, and some good classics in literature.

282 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:52:48pm

Bookies bank on Obama win

Forget the pollsters. Look to the bookies.

Ireland's largest bookmaker, Paddy Power, on Thursday declared the U.S. presidential race over and paid out bettors banking on a Barack Obama victory.

"We're certain Senator Obama will become President Obama so we're paying out over €1,000,000 on him to win the election," it said.

I hope this guy loses his ass.

What's the point spread anyway?

283 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:53:10pm

re: #264 itellu3times

How many people here think Obama was intelligently designed?

I do, but the designers forgot to program a defense against the Plumber Virus.

284 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:53:49pm

Life used to be so simple. If you wanted to learn about the physical universe, you went to science class. And if you wanted to learn about God and Man's spiritual role in the universe, you went to church. This crap blurs the line and is not helpful to the education of anyone, most especially children. As a Texan, and a follower of the Jesus way, it is disgusting.

285 Outrider  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:54:15pm

re: #273 jorline

I received my first call ever last night before the debate.

I get the polls about three times a week. One of those is the poll we were discussing the other night; the one where they asked if you supported a candidate who believed (fill in the blank) and they apparently presumed you meant Obama. ;-)>

286 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:54:30pm

re: #282 jorline

Bookies bank on Obama win

I hope this guy loses his ass.

What's the point spread anyway?

With an apology to all the Irish here in advance but didn't Ireland pcik Hitler to win WW2?

287 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:54:54pm

re: #258 wolfie

I have family experience with bilingual education, and I can assure you that at least in Texas, many Spanish-speaking parents pay just as little attention to their kids' education as English-speakers. Also, and this HAS decreased, bilingual education was created to address two major difficulties in educating these kids:

1) Migratory habits of their parents. I.e., many kids spent summers in Mexico speaking Spanish and losing their English skills.
2) Age of first entry into the US. Many kids were enrolled in schools with poor to no English skills, and needed Spanish-language instruction to keep up in other subjects. "Immersion", where you drop the kid into language-oriented instruction ONLY and let the rest slide until they can handle English, was defeated by (1).

I'm not saying yea or nay; I am just saying this is more complicated than a simple diss of public schools.

288 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:54:57pm

My name is Joe, I'm a plumber, and I'm here to expose Obama's socialism.

289 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:55:40pm

Speaking ill of Robert E. Lee is bad mojo.

290 eon  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:56:13pm

re: #249 Nevergiveup

Man found at NY airport with bomb, weapons; court denies bail

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

The 20-year-old Las Vegas man showed up in court wearing a black T-shirt featuring a machine gun and green glow-in-the-dark skulls, and was promptly denied bail.

Now that's how you dress when you want to influence the judge?

That's right up there with the drug dealer who was denied bail in a local court last summer. His (out-of-town) attorney wanted him released on his own recognizance, while the prosecutor considered him a flight risk due to three probations and two bails he already had running in Columbus. Then, defense calls for OR release again, pleading poverty/indigence. Judge denies petition, sets bail at $250K. (Bail bondsmen around here are generally demanding half in cash up front, now- they've been stiffed too many times.) He then told defendant, "Sir, the next time you want to plead poverty in my court, don't show up wearing a couple of thousand dollars' worth of gold chains and six diamond rings."

Well, I'm off for tonight. CSI is coming on.

Good Night, Lizards.

Sleep tight.

cheers

eon

291 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:56:15pm

I live in San Francisco, where they recently trotted out an entire 2nd grade class down to City Hall to witness some same-sex marriages, so I can attest that insanity is not constrained to the Right.

292 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:56:46pm

re: #285 Outrider

I get the polls about three times a week. One of those is the poll we were discussing the other night; the one where they asked if you supported a candidate who believed (fill in the blank) and they apparently presumed you meant Obama. ;-)>

Mine were all pretty straight forward questions, none of that peek-a-boo crap...lol

293 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:56:46pm

re: #92 gunjam

Um. You just said that Christians lead the way when it comes to important social changes -- such as home schooling...

... and I might add, as well, they have helped lead the way in challenging the evolutionists' dishonest lock-step monopoly over the science curricula in this country.

Nothing dishonest about following the empirical evidence wherever it leads. That's exactly what evolutionary theorists do, and precisely what Genesis literalist creationists refuse to do.

294 Outrider  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:56:51pm

re: #288 lawhawk

My name is Joe, I'm a plumber, and I'm here to expose Obama's socialism.

Good ad. Short and to point.

295 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:57:14pm

re: #281 cliffster

re: #284 Kreuzueber Halbmond

You guys have it all wrong. Making sense just doesn't cut it anymore, you need nuance!

296 Intrepid  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:57:21pm

Lucianne's site is blocked by Google as an attack site. I read there daily, but when I went to refresh this evening, I got a google block message.

WTF?

297 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:57:27pm

Hey gang...

We're gonna win this thing!

298 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:57:35pm

re: #270 itellu3times

How many people here think Texas was intelligently designed?

Well, the cold parts are in the North, the desert parts are West, the sandy bits are right next to the ocean, and the Mexican border fits perfectly against the Rio Grande.

So it's at least oriented intelligently.

/

299 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:57:39pm

re: #275 jcm

Sorry, missed the sarc tag. Just sick and tired that because you are from Idaho you are automatically considered a racist.

300 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:58:16pm

re: #299 Bubblehead II

Sorry, missed the sarc tag. Just sick and tired that because you are from Idaho you are automatically considered a racist.

Yup, that's Montana.

/sarc

301 Outrider  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:58:20pm

re: #289 cliffster

Speaking ill of Robert E. Lee is bad mojo.

And praising Gen Sherman will always earn you scorn at the least, around here in Savannah. ;-)>

302 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:58:48pm

re: #300 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Yup, that's Montana.

/sarc

I thought it was Chicago?

303 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:58:48pm

re: #296 Intrepid

It is being hacked. Repeatedly.

304 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:59:18pm

Mr. Obama, I know Joe, and you're no Joe the Plumber

305 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:59:48pm

re: #302 Nevergiveup

I thought it was Chicago?

Nope, that's where the dead go to live forever.

/on the voter rolls.

306 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 5:59:55pm

re: #299 Bubblehead II

Sorry, missed the sarc tag. Just sick and tired that because you are from Idaho you are automatically considered a racist.

Born in Weiser! Family hails from Middleton. Parents in Garden Valley.

307 Alouette  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:00:01pm

re: #89 The Shadow Do

I dare say anyone born before 1930 1830 was a creationist.

Fixed that for ya.

308 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:00:28pm

re: #304 faraway

Mr. Obama, I know Joe, and you're no Joe the Plumber

And just remember "Plumbers" have already brought down one President!

309 least  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:00:32pm

re: #297 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Hey gang...

We're gonna win this thing!

From your lips to YHWH's ear!

Sal!
Where you been?

310 odinga  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:00:44pm

I am not a Creationsist, but Sarah Palin is a gift from heaven above.

Please, it is just a figure of speech for [blank] sake.

MSNBC actually did a nice video on Palin

311 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:01:13pm

re: #304 faraway

Mr. Obama, I know Joe, and you're no Joe the Plumber

My Obama, Joe is a friend of mine. And you are not fit to roll around in the shit that Joe's plumbing pumps out of houses.

312 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:01:14pm

re: #272 mean Gene

The article doesn't name the profs so as to check.
If there's no litmus test why assume any of these guys will push creationism or it's ilk on the Texas Public Schools?

And wouldn't any of them be outvoted anyway?

Being a member of the Discovery Institute is one sign that they might have such interests.

It's OK; the ghost of Madalyn Murray O'Hair will plague their dreams until they desist.

313 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:01:50pm

re: #291 rawmuse

I live in San Francisco, where they recently trotted out an entire 2nd grade class down to City Hall to witness some same-sex marriages, so I can attest that insanity is not constrained to the Right.

I would have someones ass for that, rawmuse.

314 songbird  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:01:51pm

Totally off topic!

My friend sent me this e-mail that uses beer to explain taxes.

315 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:02:15pm

re: #108 gunjam

What a stupid thing to say: America was founded by Christians (ever heard of the Mayflower Compact?), whereas KSA is dominated by (anti-Christian) Wahhabist forces.

Regulated by clergy is regulated by clergy; in either case, we're not talking credible science.

316 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:02:33pm
317 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:02:44pm

re: #284 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Life used to be so simple. If you wanted to learn about the physical universe, you went to science class. And if you wanted to learn about God and Man's spiritual role in the universe, you went to church. This crap blurs the line and is not helpful to the education of anyone, most especially children. As a Texan, and a follower of the Jesus way, it is disgusting.

What is very sad is that these people pushing ID and literal creationism have no idea how harmful their actions are. I don't think the best way to bring people to the faith is through disingenuous means. How is promoting a rejection of reality going to help the faith? They do more harm than good.

318 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:03:02pm

All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.
- Albert Einstein

319 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:03:21pm

re: #313 jorline

I would have someones ass for that, rawmuse.

Not.touching.that.setup.

320 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:03:26pm
321 Archimedes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:03:30pm

re: #164 faraway

Video Obama makes fun of Joe the Plumber

Obama has gone from the lofty but empty "hope" and "change" to a snarky a**hole. What a transformation. The real Obama comes out.

322 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:03:40pm

re: #313 jorline

I would have someones ass for that, rawmuse.

Go straight to Polk St. You can pretty much get whatever you want in this town.

323 Intrepid  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:04:06pm

re: #303 rawmuse

It is being hacked. Repeatedly.

The OBots are doing this to every conservative blog and site they can, as well as the PUMA blogs and sites. They are disgusting little cheetoh heads.

324 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:04:15pm

re: #266 buzzsawmonkey

This is very true. My sister-in-law teaches at a large English-language boarding school in Puerto Rico. Over a third of the students come from the US. They are children of Cuban & Dominican immigrants who are stuck in "progressive" districts that, as my SIL says, teach 2 languages:
Spanish and Marxismese.

(SIL is a lifelong Democrat, BTW, and happens to be 1/2 black, but she is 100% for McCain.)

325 Hobbes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:04:45pm

re: #253 OldLineTexan

Fortunate indeed. Let's hope the accidents continue!

326 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:04:47pm

re: #318 faraway

All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree.
- Albert Einstein

And to those able to distinguish one branch from another teaching from each branch is not a problem.

It's when a myopic few wish to graft one branch into another claiming they are the same branch that the difficulty arises.

327 The Shadow Do  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:04:51pm

re: #307 Alouette

Fixed that for ya.

Boy and I taking a whippin' on that one. While Darwin's Evolution of the Species was controversial from day one, I don't think it became mainstream science before the 20/30's, but hey... I could be wrong!

328 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:05:09pm

Plumber joke:

Did you hear that someone broke into our local police station and stole the toilet?
Right now the cops have nothing to go on.....

329 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:05:47pm

4-0 tampa bay--bye bye boston

330 guzziguy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:05:50pm

re: #274 Nevergiveup

Remember the Alamo!

I've heard about that. That's where all those people from Tennessee went to get killed wasn't it?

It's great fun to poke a Texan! :-)

331 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:05:55pm

re: #298 OldLineTexan

Well, the cold parts are in the North, the desert parts are West, the sandy bits are right next to the ocean, and the Mexican border fits perfectly against the Rio Grande.

So it's at least oriented intelligently.

/

Don't forget the Piney Woods of east Texas, OLT.

332 Alouette  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:06:11pm

re: #287 OldLineTexan

I have family experience with bilingual education, and I can assure you that at least in Texas, many Spanish-speaking parents pay just as little attention to their kids' education as English-speakers. Also, and this HAS decreased, bilingual education was created to address two major difficulties in educating these kids:

1) Migratory habits of their parents. I.e., many kids spent summers in Mexico speaking Spanish and losing their English skills.
2) Age of first entry into the US. Many kids were enrolled in schools with poor to no English skills, and needed Spanish-language instruction to keep up in other subjects. "Immersion", where you drop the kid into language-oriented instruction ONLY and let the rest slide until they can handle English, was defeated by (1).

I'm not saying yea or nay; I am just saying this is more complicated than a simple diss of public schools.

My grandkids live in Moscow speaking Russian and spend summers in Israel speaking Hebrew, and in between have picked up English, and they don't get any special bilingual edumacashun from public skrewels.

333 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:06:38pm

A proud father was showing a fellow worker a picture of his five grown sons. His friend asked what they did for a living.

The father said the older two are doctors and the youngest two are lawyers.

The friend asked about the middle son and the father said, "Oh, he's a plumber. Someone had to pay for all the others educations.

334 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:06:46pm

re: #330 guzziguy

I've heard about that. That's where all those people from Tennessee went to get killed wasn't it?

It's great fun to poke a Texan! :-)

Yeah, but I live in NJ?

335 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:07:17pm

re: #270 itellu3times

How many people here think Texas was intelligently designed?

Be very careful itellu.

336 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:07:23pm

make tha 5-0 tampa--bombs away

337 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:07:44pm
338 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:08:31pm

re: #331 jorline

Don't forget the Piney Woods of east Texas, OLT.

Right next to the sawmills. Good point, jorline!

/

339 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:08:35pm

Friggin Pena and Longoria are hot for TB...back to back home runs for the second time in the series.

340 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:08:38pm

re: #332 Alouette

My grandkids live in Moscow speaking Russian and spend summers in Israel speaking Hebrew, and in between have picked up English, and they don't get any special bilingual edumacashun from public skrewels.

We have a family in our church, German Mennonites who settle in Mexico last century, and moved to my next of woods.
German, Spanish, English a couple of other languages as well as a unique dialect to their sect. No special schools for them either.

341 loflyer  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:08:43pm

Haaar! Evening mates! Another busy day at work, took 'me boss to lunch, actually 'me whole section henceforth designated INET team. He wouldn't even let us pay for his lunch on bosses day! He knows I was in the Navy, and his son had served aboard a Spruance class 'can. We had an extremely interesting discussion on how the Afghanistan and Iraqi wars were faught and we both had come to the same conclusions of where the mistakes were made. I told him that he was 'me best boss I had had in 25 years with the county. I told him 'me former boss, and retired had been a near genuis, creating 'me beloved INET network from nothing with minimal funding to create the finest MAN of it's type. But that he was the better manager, he did not get mad at 'me near faux pas and just said thanks, that means a lot to me....He's a pirate too!

342 Archimedes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:09:35pm

re: #321 Archimedes

Grammar correction. Added word "being" below.

Obama has gone from the lofty but empty "hope" and "change" to being a snarky a**hole. What a transformation. The real Obama comes out.

343 guzziguy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:09:48pm

re: #334 Nevergiveup

Yeah, but I live in NJ?

Oh, well, I'm neighbors with Texas. I have dozens of good Texas jokes if you ever need them.

344 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:09:49pm

re: #316 buzzsawmonkey

So, doubtless, would some of the happy couples.

lol...come on buzz, put it to music.

345 Nevergiveup  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:10:06pm

re: #339 jorline

Friggin Pena and Longoria are hot for TB...back to back home runs for the second time in the series.

And they are all babies?

346 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:10:24pm
347 hazzyday  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:10:42pm

re: #78 gunjam

George Washington was a creationist.

Robert E. Lee was a creationist.

I am a creationist.

Is this a great country, or what?

What type of creationist was George Washington? He was definitely a Mason. That would more likely lead to an exposure of advanced scientific thought of the day. And Washington reads like a person smarter then most people today. Yec'rs are not shy about their beliefs.

And Washington makes no note of "young earth creationism" as far as I can tell. Yec'rs have tried to claim him. But that is an illusion. Can we deduct then here that most of your propositions are illusionary that fit some internal need you have? That you have projected onto a personal faith and onto a personal religion? That don't really reflect the majority? Can we assure ourselves here that your blog content here is fallible?

I would suggest most clearly that you are wrong here in your intent, but to leave your cherished religious view for a broader more tolerant Christ like religion view will make you uncomfortable.

Yecism only appeals to a certain mindset. People who need their religion literally interpreted by an intercessor for them before God. That is a sword that cuts deeply both ways. We are free to hold our faith as best suits us. But religions do evolve.

348 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:10:46pm

re: #332 Alouette

My grandkids live in Moscow speaking Russian and spend summers in Israel speaking Hebrew, and in between have picked up English, and they don't get any special bilingual edumacashun from public skrewels.

That's great. The common experience in Texas with an ever-shifting mass of illegal immigrants has been quite a bit different. Many of these families lack educated parents, most lack significant financial resources, and all live in the shadows created by lack of border control, greedy employers, Mexican corruption, and bleeding heart do-gooders.

349 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:11:29pm
350 The Shadow Do  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:11:37pm

re: #337 buzzsawmonkey

Mainstream science, yes. Mainstream knowledge, perhaps not--depending on how you define "mainstream."

H.S. classroom curricula

351 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:11:54pm

OT: I'm watching a Weather Channel documentary on the Great Chicago Fire. At their first break they say, "We'll be right back with more on one of Chicago's greatest disasters." The very next ad was for Obama.

Works for me!

352 jcm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:11:54pm

Gotta bug out folks.

In a state where corruption abounds, laws must be very numerous.
Tacitus

353 capefear  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:11:54pm

To all of you who find yourself so unhinged over this horrible travesty,

How about you showing me the documentation, showing me that they are going to teach "religion" in Texas schools. And make sure it isn't an article from a blog or a newspaper written by someone with the integrity of Dan Rather.

Am I concerned with looking stupid, to you? No. I'm concerned with the over-the-top reaction to the idea of intelligent design.

When your discussing all this harm it will do, you never get specific. Sarah Palin may not be in favor of having ID taught in the schools but she believes in a creator and most of you are going to vote for her. She really turned out a mess because of her beliefs, didn't she? Yeah those crazy Christians, if we could just get them out of society oh what a utopia we would have.

I repeat, if Darwinism can't be refuted, and anyone growing up in this society is going to be swimming in a sea of Darwinists, why all this venom over children getting to hear the other side of the story.

It won't make that much of a difference one way or the other. I certainly don't expect to see this nation turning to Christianity because ID gets a hearing in some schools in Texas. But it seems that religious beliefs, or is it morality?, are such a threat to some of you it's like putting a cross in front of vampires.

354 Mr Spiffy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:12:22pm

WHoo Hoo!

Rays up 5-0 in the mid-third

355 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:13:24pm

Mac a Al Smith dinner... FOX right now.

356 Dar ul Harbarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:13:44pm

re: #164 faraway

Video Obama makes fun of Joe the Plumber

What a prick. Out of touch. Arrogant.

I have know people in construction trades who worked themselves up to being millionaires.

357 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:13:45pm

re: #345 Nevergiveup

And they are all babies?

Yep...It's going to be hard for Philly to stop TB's bats.

I'm an Astros fan...we're use to seeing young talent mature somewhere else...lol

358 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:13:52pm

re: #353 capefear

Start reading. That is, unless you think Charles doesn't have more integrity than Dan Rather.

359 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:14:49pm

re: #348 OldLineTexan

Yes, it is a complicated situation.

360 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:14:56pm

re: #357 jorline

Yep...It's going to be hard for Philly to stop TB's bats.

I'm an Astros fan...we're use to seeing young talent mature somewhere else...lol

We used to send the really promising ones to the Cincy Reds. But that seems to have stopped. Where do we send them now?

/at least they kept my homeboy Berkman

361 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:15:07pm

re: #353 capefear

Or how about the Vatican? Do they have more credibility and integrity than Dan Rather in your eyes?

362 Charles  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:15:18pm

re: #353 capefear

How about you showing me the documentation, showing me that they are going to teach "religion" in Texas schools.

The Wedge Strategy.

363 hazzyday  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:16:24pm

The best way to spread the Word outside of Islam (by the sword) is by personal example. Make yourself Christian like and solid like a rock in your faith and represent yourself as an imperfect example. Wrong tact here to do it in a science class. Totally misses the boat.

364 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:16:54pm

Quick -McCain live on Fox at the Alfred Smith dinner

365 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:17:32pm
366 Mr Spiffy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:17:34pm

re: #188 Nevergiveup

I thought I'm Sarah Palin. Shit this is getting ocnfusing?

Call a plumber.
LoL

367 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:17:46pm

re: #306 jcm

Born in Twin Falls, left for the Navy and the came back home. I "appear" to be the only Idaho Lizard here now. Retired Air Force from Mt Home has gone AWOL. So being the only one "here" I just feel I have to defend my State from such attacks. We are NOT a racist State and have done our best to get rid of those organizations who cast this Shadow upon us.

368 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:17:51pm

Skewering Obama - hilarious.

369 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:17:51pm

re: #359 wolfie

Yes, it is a complicated situation.

It's not my personal experience. My uncle spent 38 years as the principal of an elementary school in northeast Houston, and has only recently re-retired from teaching due to age and now cancer.

When I was in college, he and I had a series of conversations in which he patiently explained his work in establishing bilingual education policies for his school district, what the problems were, and where the compromises were made.

370 hazzyday  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:18:24pm

re: #356 Dar ul Harbarian

What a prick. Out of touch. Arrogant.

I have know people in construction trades who worked themselves up to being millionaires.

That is how Obama will treat us all if we don't get along to go along with him. Welcome to Le Chicago Machine.

371 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:18:46pm

"Where's Bill?" Out campaigning for the man who beat his wife?

372 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:18:57pm

How does Obama think that Joe got to be a "rich" plumber?
Does he think the government made him one?
Does he think he was born that way?

373 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:19:07pm

re: #360 OldLineTexan

We used to send the really promising ones to the Cincy Reds. But that seems to have stopped. Where do we send them now?

/at least they kept my homeboy Berkman

Brewers, Mets and the Rockies picked up a lot of them over the last three years. Lidge has had a good year for the Phillies.

374 Dar ul Harbarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:19:21pm

OT

If McCain wins, I nominated Joe the Plumber as Secretary of Labor.

375 loflyer  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:19:36pm

re: #353 capefear

Yaar, an interesting point, mate. All though there is evidence pointing to evolution in the as the model of development of terrestrial life, there is also considerable evidence that the universe as described in Genesis at the creation of the universe is stinkingly similar to the models of the big-bang.....

376 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:19:55pm

HIllary doing her usual

"Messiah is above my pay grade"

377 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:20:00pm

re: #365 buzzsawmonkey

3 minutes.
Shee-it, you are good!

378 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:20:02pm

re: #353 capefear

To all of you who find yourself so unhinged over this horrible travesty,

How about you showing me the documentation, showing me that they are going to teach "religion" in Texas schools. And make sure it isn't an article from a blog or a newspaper written by someone with the integrity of Dan Rather.

Am I concerned with looking stupid, to you? No. I'm concerned with the over-the-top reaction to the idea of intelligent design.

When your discussing all this harm it will do, you never get specific.
Sarah Palin may not be in favor of having ID taught in the schools but she believes in a creator and most of you are going to vote for her. She really turned out a mess because of her beliefs, didn't she? Yeah those crazy Christians, if we could just get them out of society oh what a utopia we would have.

I repeat, if Darwinism can't be refuted, and anyone growing up in this society is going to be swimming in a sea of Darwinists, why all this venom over children getting to hear the other side of the story.

It won't make that much of a difference one way or the other. I certainly don't expect to see this nation turning to Christianity because ID gets a hearing in some schools in Texas. But it seems that religious beliefs, or is it morality?, are such a threat to some of you it's like putting a cross in front of vampires.

There are many of us here who are religious people, and I am one of them.

I am, however, very opposed to "creationism" and the DI agenda, which is exactly to insert reglious belief into the classroom.

If you want specifics, here is the Discovery Institute's Wedge Document.

There have been links to many more specifics posted in the many threads about this issue.

In particular, note the 5 and 20 year goals on page 4.

I do not, I repeat, I do not want a teacher teaching the state or national version of religion to my child in the classroom. I will ensure my child gets religious instruction, in the faith of my choice. I do not want a teacher of some other faith, or of no faith at all, taking away from me my right to ensure my child is taught properly in my faith.

And that's what this is all about.

379 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:20:27pm
[Philip] Johnson calls his movement "The Wedge." The objective, he said, is to convince people that Darwinism is inherently atheistic, thus shifting the debate from creationism vs. evolution to the existence of God vs. the non-existence of God. From there people are introduced to "the truth" of the Bible and then "the question of sin" and finally "introduced to Jesus."

[Link: findarticles.com...]

I don't know how much more blatant this could be, capefear. This comes from their very mouths.

380 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:20:36pm

By the way, anybody ever wondered what a fat bastard vegetarian looks like? People tell me all of the time I am a dead ringer for Glen Beck. I hear it 10-15 times a week (yeah. I meet a lot of people./Yeah. I know Glen Beck is not gawjus). But, I am fatter.

381 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:20:39pm

re: #171 Scion9

So would you then be ok with teaching these


Creationism textbooks as 'literature'? It's about the same argument. They make claims using 'science' in a blatantly dishonest way in order to indoctrinate.

Marx uses the same tactics with ridiculous historical analysis, arguments from authority, cod philosophy, in order to indoctrinate the audience. It's not literature any more than these proposed textbooks are.

Point taken. I'll concede the answer lies somewhere in the middle. I tend to agree with:

re: #180 jcm

However......


We need the a return to the teaching of critical thinking skills first.

Then the literature of Marx et. al. can be introduced, and for that matter Creationism in comparative reiligions can be taught (not in science). Because we've instilled the thinking skills in the students.

382 Alouette  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:20:40pm

re: #228 jorline

Good evening, lizards.

I want to wake up November 5th with a victorious President John McCain holding up the New York Times with the headlines "Obama Wins".

There won't be a print headline, but be prepared to grab screenshitsTM

Didn't CNN proclaim Al Gore the winner in Florida before the polls closed in the panhandle?

383 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:20:45pm

"Keith Olbermann - padded room" - you have to see this ......

384 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:20:46pm

re: #365 buzzsawmonkey

We don't teach math or science
We don't teach kids to read
But we take them to city hall
To show them what they need

We take the kids on field trips
Down to the wedding room
And show them couples getting hitched
Two brides, perhaps two grooms

Traditional learning is--
Let us be frank--a bore
And we must teach them tolerance
Though they learn nothing more

roflmao....too funny, buzz.

385 Hobbes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:20:49pm

re: #250 rawmuse

You make a very good point. All day long the MSM has been in auto-destroy mode over this guy. They gave him the full Palin treatment.

Yes and I also heard one radio report where they are also trying to get his boss
about not having the proper license. That's the Obama way...clear the field.

386 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:21:17pm

re: #201 capefear

If you're going to advocate the tyranny of the majority, first, you have to change the US Constitution, as the entire Bill of Rights was passed to forfend such a thing (which is why the phrase "Congress shall pass no law..." appears so many times).

Second, you have to prove that the majority of Texan parents actually WANT genesis literalist brainwashing in science class for their kids; to me this instead smacks of a putsch engineered by a fanatical few who have maneuvered their way into decision-making positions on this issue to promote their own agenda.

And if you think that the text in question is worth a crap as anything but a propaganda PR vehicle, you need to read the review of it that Charles posted a few days back:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

What ever happened to States rights? How about parents rights?
If the majority of Texans want ID taught in their schools they should
have every right to have it taught. Exactly what threat does it pose a child if they hear that there is an alternative teaching to Darwinism, that scientists, who know a lot more about the subject than most of the people posting on this thread know, believe?

Exactly what dreadful harm do you all see for the future of these poor unfortunate children who may end up believing in a creator? If they want to become scientists, surely if evolution is so undeniably clear, they will find out through their on-going studies, right?

As far as believing the earth was created in 24 hour days. They are not going to be teaching them that. They aren't even going to offer an idea of who the creator might be.

With all of the garbage and indoctrination being taught in the schools today, for all you to get this bent out of shape over this is amazing. Our children are being taught relativism, anti-americanism, really hedonism, I could go on, not only in classrooms but just about everywhere in this society. You can read about the harm this is doing by picking up a newpaper.

To hear people express the fact that they "they don't want this making them look stupid". I'm sorry to break it to you, but you already look stupid to the left. The fact that you defend Israel, is stupid to them. The fact that you would vote for McCain, makes you look stupid to them. If your worried about looking stupid you better change parties.

387 PAgirlinNC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:21:20pm

Oh. My. McCain's speech at Memorial Dinner is hysterical!

388 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:21:33pm

"Acorn registering second graders, Mickey Mouse,...."

389 Archimedes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:21:37pm

Oh how glorious would our times be if only Roger The Shrubber would confront Obama.

390 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:21:41pm

re: #317 Sharmuta

How is promoting a rejection of reality going to help the faith?

Indeed, the ID'ers are pushing for the rejection of provable, observable physical science. Being dishonest is not helpful to faith.

391 hazzyday  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:21:46pm

re: #367 Bubblehead II

Born in Twin Falls, left for the Navy and the came back home. I "appear" to be the only Idaho Lizard here now. Retired Air Force from Mt Home has gone AWOL. So being the only one "here" I just feel I have to defend my State from such attacks. We are NOT a racist State and have done our best to get rid of those organizations who cast this Shadow upon us.

Seattle has more neo nazi's than any rural state. I came from the midwest and never came across any "White Extremists". Within a year in Seattle on the street I was approached on the street to join a neo nazi group. They were very bold, much like Scientologists. Now I do remember I think the "Posse Comitatus" and I think they were in South Dakota.

392 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:22:42pm

re: #387 PAgirlinNC
It is hilarious. Hope Obama can take the roasting.

393 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:22:45pm

Obama has his arms wrapped around his body trying to laugh - he's very uncomfortable at this good- old boy humor.

Just called Obama "impressive"

394 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:23:42pm

re: #390 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Indeed, the ID'ers are pushing for the rejection of provable, observable physical science. Being dishonest is not helpful to faith.

Agreed- it is harmful to the faith as it actually pushed people away from it.

395 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:23:49pm

Will Obama be as gracious....i will be surprised. He doesn't have the cajones to be as gracious.

396 hazzyday  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:24:01pm

re: #380 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

By the way, anybody ever wondered what a fat bastard vegetarian looks like? People tell me all of the time I am a dead ringer for Glen Beck. I hear it 10-15 times a week (yeah. I meet a lot of people./Yeah. I know Glen Beck is not gawjus). But, I am fatter.

I thought it referred to the type of wine you drank.

397 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:24:32pm

re: #380 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hey, FBV! I was driving aimlessly around Roanoke today and was appalled to see so many Obamassiah signs in the Raleign Court area. UGH.
Salem, on the other hand, was looking good for McCain/Palin.

398 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:24:52pm

re: #395 DistantThunder
No self depreciating humor either. He won't be very funny.

399 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:25:14pm

McCain!

400 Jim D  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:25:34pm

re: #375 loflyer

There is no such evidence.

401 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:26:11pm

McCain is hilarious!

402 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:26:14pm

re: #382 Alouette

There won't be a print headline, but be prepared to grab screenshitsTM

Didn't CNN proclaim Al Gore the winner in Florida before the polls closed in the panhandle?

IIRC CNN did call Florida prematurely....the panhandle was still voting. Everyone caught a load of crap for that one.

403 PAgirlinNC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:26:18pm

re: #392 snowcrash

I'm sure Obama will come tomorrow out with a stupid attempt at humor. More than once he's tried a stand up routine on the campaign trail... Makes an ass of himself but he still tries...

404 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:26:44pm

Decades in the military can make you hilarious I guess - can't be the senate.

405 Outrider  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:26:50pm

re: #353 capefear

To all of you who find yourself so unhinged over this horrible travesty,

How about you showing me the documentation, showing me that they are going to teach "religion" in Texas schools. And make sure it isn't an article from a blog or a newspaper written by someone with the integrity of Dan Rather.

Am I concerned with looking stupid, to you? No. I'm concerned with the over-the-top reaction to the idea of intelligent design.

When your discussing all this harm it will do, you never get specific. Sarah Palin may not be in favor of having ID taught in the schools but she believes in a creator and most of you are going to vote for her. She really turned out a mess because of her beliefs, didn't she? Yeah those crazy Christians, if we could just get them out of society oh what a utopia we would have.

I repeat, if Darwinism can't be refuted, and anyone growing up in this society is going to be swimming in a sea of Darwinists, why all this venom over children getting to hear the other side of the story.

It won't make that much of a difference one way or the other. I certainly don't expect to see this nation turning to Christianity because ID gets a hearing in some schools in Texas. But it seems that religious beliefs, or is it morality?, are such a threat to some of you it's like putting a cross in front of vampires.

Darwinism is an imprecise term for evolution as his theories were only one part of evolution.

Few posters here don't believe in a creator. You want creationism taught in public schools? Whose story of creation will you be teaching? The Genesis crowd? Another Christian sects theories? Islamic creation belief? Druids? Pagans? Who determines which one? All of them? Equal time?

Your last statement was totally uncalled for. Our constitution is fairly clear regarding separation of church and state.

Why are you so adamant about teaching "the other side of the story". Whose side of the story? Yours? That is what parents and church is for.

406 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:26:52pm

Brilliant!

407 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:27:23pm

The McCain set up for Obama was awesome

408 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:28:06pm

re: #407 DistantThunder

The McCain set up for Obama was awesome

What are ya'll watching?

409 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:28:31pm

re: #408 reine.de.tout

What are ya'll watching?

Alfred E Smith Dinner

410 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:29:01pm

OT: The FBI investigation into Mahoney (D-adulterer/FL) continues and it's juicier than I thought:

Federal agents also are examining whether a second affair Mahoney was having with a high-level official in his Florida district was the reason behind his decision to push for federal emergency funds for her county, the official said.

The person spoke to The Associated Press only on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the investigation.

The FBI is looking into whether Mahoney hired the first mistress—and put her on the federal payroll—so she would not reveal their affair, the person said. The woman, Patricia Allen, has not returned calls for comment.

The agency also wants to know whether any sexual favors were exchanged for Mahoney helping Martin County secure a $3.4 million reimbursement from the Federal Emergency Management Agency for hurricane damage there while having a second affair with a high-level county manager.

Oh, and local democrats are bitter about how the DCCC pushed Mahoney on them (led by Rahm Emanuel....).

Combine this with news pushed across the wires about the McCain non-affair with Iseman and you have to wonder why that story just came through again if only to try and bury or divert attention from the Mahoney mess.

411 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:29:05pm

I've been on LGF for the last 90 minutes and I've now seen eight Obama ads.

412 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:29:14pm

Comedic speeches on Fox of McCain and Obama at the Alfred Smith honorary dinner - he was the 4 term governor of New York

You HAVE to see this! McCain hit it out of the park!

413 Mr Spiffy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:29:16pm

re: #228 jorline

Good evening, lizards.

I want to wake up November 5th with a victorious President John McCain holding up the New York Times with the headlines "Obama Wins".

Weet Dreams

414 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:29:28pm
415 bloodnok  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:29:33pm

prediction: Obama wins dinner 58-38. /

416 hazzyday  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:29:40pm

re: #353 capefear

From the way you write, I don't think you know what the term "intelligent design" means in this context. It's proponents have been proven to be liars and cheats. And agents of the Devil if you want to put yourself into their same shoes. Bottom line. Defending the Discovery Institute is a fraudulent way of life. We have seen the consequences. More tax dollars spent on wasted time. The only result of this is that Texas property taxes will go up.

417 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:30:02pm

But Obama is a serious politician. What he has to say is IMPORTANT not light hearted. So, if he falls short of humor it is some kind of racist old white boy thing. /sarc

418 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:30:08pm

re: #411 jorline

Because the RNC and McCain camps are spending their money now. $160 million in the final weeks.

419 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:30:13pm

The Messiah is now speaking - let's see if he can be funny - what are the odds?

420 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:30:48pm

re: #414 buzzsawmonkey

I can imagine Obama at the Alfred E. Neuman dinner. They have ears in common.

you pegged it

421 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:31:13pm

re: #414 buzzsawmonkey

I can imagine Obama at the Alfred E. Neuman dinner. They have ears in common.

You mean like this?

422 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:31:29pm

re: #408 reine.de.tout

What are ya'll watching?

Hey, reine. I was wondering the same thing.

423 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:31:30pm

Obama has a very flat delivery....poking fun of the greek columns... moving the venue outside to Yankee Stadium.

poking fun at Palin....

424 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:31:37pm

re: #414 buzzsawmonkey

I can imagine Obama at the Alfred E. Neuman dinner. They have ears in common.

Unfortunately, the answer to "What Me, Worry?" is "YES".

425 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:31:43pm

Wow, Obama is no incredibly not charming. They were replaying clips of George Bush. Sigh...

426 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:31:48pm

re: #413 Mr Spiffy

Weet Dreams


speaking of weet dreams,does Beach Katie still come around?

427 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:31:51pm

Live on FoxNews

428 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:31:51pm
429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:32:06pm

re: #391 hazzyday

Seattle has more neo nazi's than any rural state. I came from the midwest and never came across any "White Extremists". Within a year in Seattle on the street I was approached on the street to join a neo nazi group. They were very bold, much like Scientologists. Now I do remember I think the "Posse Comitatus" and I think they were in South Dakota.

Oh oh oh! Today I was in Richmond Virginia, had an hour to kill so I went to the "Hollywood Cemetery". John Tyler, James Monroe, J.E.B. Stuart (my uncle) are buried there, along with 18,000 Confederate dead.

Anyway, the reason I am telling you about this, I witnessed a family at the grave of Jefferson Davis. Definitely there in mourning. Confederate flag t-shirt wearing family that simply made my blood boil. That was hate, not heritage.

Your ten year old son should not be wearing a confederate flag t-shirt with "Keep it pure" printed below it.

Just wanted to tell this story. Wanted to punch the father the heck out! Can not stand white-trash racists! Sometimes, I'm shocked they still exist, and get pissed when reminded.

License plate? Indiana. WTF?

430 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:32:26pm

re: #423 DistantThunder

Obama has a very flat delivery....poking fun of the greek columns... moving the venue outside to Yankee Stadium.

poking fun at Palin....

She will paste him like Wendy Testaberger pasted Eric Cartman.

431 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:32:41pm

re: #309 least

From your lips to YHWH's ear!

Sal!
Where you been?

I've been around.

Sounds like you've been busy in Texas.

432 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:32:43pm

Calls her Hillary - seems rude.

433 CynicalConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:32:52pm

Bama's pretty flat so far... Laughs are quite a bit smaller and shorter

434 VioletTiger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:32:55pm

McCain was amazing. Hope somebody gets this for YouTube.

435 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:33:03pm

re: #414 buzzsawmonkey

I can imagine Obama at the Alfred E. Neuman dinner. They have ears in common.

lol...you're on your usual roll, buzz.

436 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:33:03pm

Obama is working it. Getting into the spirit of the roast. Not quite as at ease, but expectations are low.

437 LoFlyer  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:33:13pm

re: #389 Archimedes

Oh how glorious would our times be if only Roger The Shrubber would confront Obama.

[Link: www.youtube.com...]

I'll raise you a Flesh wound! I admire his perseverance, a quality that I take pride in, mate!

438 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:33:14pm

re: #421 gmsc

:D
Priceless!

439 CynicalConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:33:33pm

Schumer comment was nice

440 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:33:54pm

re: #428 buzzsawmonkey

LOL.

Actually, this is a better one.

441 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:34:11pm

Obama isn't funny - is not naturally self-deprecating

442 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:34:36pm

I missed McCain's bit; listening to The One now.

443 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:34:39pm

re: #418 Sharmuta

Because the RNC and McCain camps are spending their money now. $160 million in the final weeks.

Plus, were not a swing state...McCain will carry TX.

444 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:34:53pm

What a downer Obama is.....

445 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:34:57pm
446 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:35:00pm

Wow, Obama simply doesn't know how to do except pontificate. And pontificate to a script, at that.

447 VioletTiger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:35:01pm

McCain funny.
Obama not so much.

448 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:35:21pm

McCain was a comedic genius - it was the highlight of the entire campaign

449 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:35:38pm

re: #419 DistantThunder

The Messiah is now speaking - let's see if he can be funny - what are the odds?

I'd rather watch baseball...thanks.

450 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:35:41pm
451 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:35:52pm

Lecturing the crowd

452 CynicalConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:36:01pm

Note to Obama, it's not a stump speech, it's a roast...

453 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:36:17pm

That one - that was funny

454 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:36:22pm

re: #443 jorline

Gotta keep the base motivated.

455 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:36:23pm

re: #441 DistantThunder
It is forced, but he's trying. Wonder who wrote his speech/humor? Content is very good, delivery only fair.

456 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:36:57pm

"I got my middle name for someone who obviously didn't think I'd ever run for president."
Credit where credit's due--that was a good line.

457 CynicalConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:36:58pm

Yawn....

458 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:36:59pm

What a jerk

459 PAgirlinNC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:37:08pm

So who writes these roasts for the candidates? Their own speechwriters in collaboration wtih comedians or Hollywood writers?

460 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:37:46pm

C'mon the jokes are GOOD.

461 talon_262  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:37:59pm

re: #55 Steffan

OT: Microsoft engineers blog about Windows 7.There ya go.... now we know why Windows Vista is such a clusterf**k. The Pointy-Haired Boss strikes again!

I, unlike a lot of computer nerds, like Vista...in many ways, it's an improvement over XP, but in others, it leaves something to be desired. However, if Windows 7 (which builds on Vista's kernel and other internals) is stripped of cruft and tweaked like some say that it will, it'll be worth the wait.

462 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:38:08pm

Sounds like David letterman wrote this

463 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:38:20pm

Zero can't do comedy. It's not real from him. Workmanlike, at best.

464 VioletTiger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:38:29pm

Axelrod must have written his speech.

465 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:38:41pm

I thought this was a roast for Alfred Smith...not BO.

Or is it just me?

466 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:39:02pm
467 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:39:16pm

uuuuuggghhhhhh

468 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:39:32pm

re: #466 buzzsawmonkey

David Letterman is to comedy as a root canal is to a walk in the park.

Exactly

469 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:40:28pm

Here comes the McCain schmoooze - but it is not as gracious as McCain - maybe a little - but how hard is it to come up with something positive about McCain?

470 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:40:36pm

re: #452 CynicalConservative

Note to Obama, it's not a stump speech, it's a roast...

but, but...it's always about "O".

471 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:40:59pm

So I actually DVR'd the McCain speech, and I got so uncomfortable I went ahead and rewound to McCain. Killing me. He's hilarious. C'mon, John, don't go Bob Dole on us. Show this spirit beforeelection day..

472 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:41:01pm

re: #397 wolfie

Hey, FBV! I was driving aimlessly around Roanoke today and was appalled to see so many Obamassiah signs in the Raleign Court area. UGH.
Salem, on the other hand, was looking good for McCain/Palin.

The moonbats live in Raleigh Court. Seriously. A prius in every driveway, and a tofu chicken in every pot. (And, of course...pot).

473 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:41:02pm

NO mention of Bill the absent campaign supporter. That is not a coincidence.

474 nyc redneck  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:41:32pm

when obama makes fun of the plumber, he is making fun of all of us who reject him as the messiah.
and who are not interested in his commie plans.

475 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:41:36pm

Well BO would have been quaking in his boots at the prospect of facing Tom Russert, but I doubt that Mac would have been.

476 infidel Alan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:41:41pm

Obambi is not getting as much laughter or applause as McCain did.

477 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:09pm

Obama what a total downer - i'll need valium for 4 years if he is elected.

478 CynicalConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:10pm

re: #470 jorline

but, but...it's always about "O".

Oh yeah..., self inflicted *Whack* (Where's Mandy when you need her)

479 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:11pm

re: #475 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Well BO would have been quaking in his boots at the prospect of facing Tom Russert, but I doubt that Mac would have been.


Tim..

480 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:26pm

Gallup 49-47 bho.

Gallup? Really?

481 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:33pm

re: #466 buzzsawmonkey

David Letterman is to comedy as a root canal is to a walk in the park.

Last time I saw him was on a TV in the supermarket checkout. They used to show Jay Leno and his headlines, amidst ads, recipes, and other junk.
This time they showed Letterman, and it was almost enough for me to rip the wires out of the thing. Fortunately, the line was moving fast enough.

If you want to suffer, he was talking about his new "good American desk". Of course, when he pounded the desk, it came apart, so he started to ask for a Japanese desk.
I didn't tell it well, but I can't say it was funnier to me than my retelling.

482 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:34pm

Pompous and self-righteous

483 PAgirlinNC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:47pm

I noticed that any time he delivered a joke about himself, he kinda rushed through it and then kept going so there was no opportunity for laughter or applause...

484 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:49pm

Quit with the two Americas shit, Zero. Isn't appropriate. Jerk.

485 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:50pm

re: #353 capefear

To all of you who find yourself so unhinged over this horrible travesty,

How about you showing me the documentation, showing me that they are going to teach "religion" in Texas schools. And make sure it isn't an article from a blog or a newspaper written by someone with the integrity of Dan Rather.

Am I concerned with looking stupid, to you? No. I'm concerned with the over-the-top reaction to the idea of intelligent design.

When your discussing all this harm it will do, you never get specific. Sarah Palin may not be in favor of having ID taught in the schools but she believes in a creator and most of you are going to vote for her. She really turned out a mess because of her beliefs, didn't she? Yeah those crazy Christians, if we could just get them out of society oh what a utopia we would have.

I repeat, if Darwinism can't be refuted, and anyone growing up in this society is going to be swimming in a sea of Darwinists, why all this venom over children getting to hear the other side of the story.

It won't make that much of a difference one way or the other. I certainly don't expect to see this nation turning to Christianity because ID gets a hearing in some schools in Texas. But it seems that religious beliefs, or is it morality?, are such a threat to some of you it's like putting a cross in front of vampires.

Because, as far as empirical science is concerned, there is only one side of the story. ID has not been able to produce one single iota of empirical evidence that supports its contentions. Even it's supporters admit that it is content-free, and only exists to criticize evolutionary theory - and is therefore just as parsitically dependent upon evolutionary theory's existence to have something something to oppose as Satanism is dependent upon Christianity.

[Link: ase.tufts.edu...]

486 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:42:53pm

re: #474 nyc redneck

when obama makes fun of the plumber

What did he say about him?

487 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:43:10pm

re: #479 joecitizen

Tim..


OOPS PIMF

Tim, (sorry, Tim!)

488 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:43:14pm

re: #477 DistantThunder

Obama what a total downer - i'll need valium for 4 years if he is elected.

He'll supply soma, in his brave new world.

489 Palandine  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:43:18pm

re: #63 zombie

Your essay is awesome.

And I guess we'll all know the truth on November 4, when McCain wins, despite what our betters have told us for so long.

After hearing that the FBI is looking into conspiracy charges against ACORN, I have a bit more faith that honest voters will be enfranchised.

490 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:43:21pm
491 Bubblehead II  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:43:42pm

re: #391 hazzyday

I am just glad they are gone. They were and still are a blot on the integrity of this State. Because of the law, both State and Federal (that I support) they were able to find a safe haven. When they finally crossed the line, it took a third party and a cival lawsuit to get them to leave.

n September 2000 the SPLC won a $6.3 million judgment against the Aryan Nations from an Idaho jury who awarded punitive and compensatory damages to a woman and her son who were attacked by Aryan Nations guards.[52] The lawsuit stemmed from the July 1998 attack when security guards at the Aryan Nations compound in Idaho shot at Victoria Keenan and her son.[53] Bullets struck their car several times then the car crashed and an Aryan Nations member held the Keenans at gunpoint.[53] As a result of the judgement, Richard Butler turned over the 20-acre compound to the Keenans who then sold the property to a philanthropist who subsequently donated it to North Idaho College, which designated the land as a "peace park."[54]

492 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:43:47pm

re: #480 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gallup 49-47 bho.

Gallup? Really?

Yes, but they now have two Gallups. Traditional (above) and Moonbat Driven (which shows Bambi with +6 or so).

493 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:43:49pm

Why do totalitarians love to hear themselves yak? This does not seem sincere - seems completely self-serving.

On a navy ship - he would NOT be one of the guys.

494 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:43:54pm

I missed Mac, was he funny?

495 Colonel Panik  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:43:59pm

re: #429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


Indiana was one of the strongest states for the Klan in the 1920's.

496 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:44:18pm

re: #480 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gallup 49-47 bho.

Gallup? Really?

By the models applied to previous elections, yes.

497 ggt  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:44:20pm
498 CynicalConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:44:30pm

re: #494 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

I missed Mac, was he funny?

Had me (and the crowd) rolling....

499 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:44:31pm

re: #490 buzzsawmonkey

With any luck, Obama's "Joe the Plumber" jokes will help him down the drain-o.

I said it this morning...Joe should not buy a plumbing business. He'll be successful beyond his wildest dreams if he just hangs out is shingle tomorrow.

500 cliffster  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:44:47pm

re: #494 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

I missed Mac, was he funny?

He was awesome.

501 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:44:58pm

re: #494 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

I missed Mac, was he funny?

Quite wonderful, honestly, and that's not just the partisan in me.

502 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:45:02pm

man, I've never seen obama so bad..completely out of his element...

503 PAgirlinNC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:45:18pm

re: #494 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

I missed Mac, was he funny?

Check youtube. Should be there soon, I'm sure.

504 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:45:41pm

re: #492 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

Yes, but they now have two Gallups. Traditional (above) and Moonbat Driven (which shows Bambi with +6 or so).

Wait, as to the moonbat driven Gallup, isn't that the one that gives BO some leeway because he's black? Didn't I read somewhere that the polls were padded? I called it Affirmitave Action Poling on one of the threads.

505 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:45:42pm

re: #494 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

I missed Mac, was he funny?

You MUST see McCain - it was the highlight of the campaign.

506 solomonpanting  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:45:46pm

re: #499 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I said it this morning...Joe should not buy a plumbing business. He'll be successful beyond his wildest dreams if he just hangs out is shingle tomorrow.

He'll need a license first.

507 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:45:55pm

Here's one of Obama's classic jokes:

Why did -uh- the chicken cross the -uh- road?
To go to his -uh- second job to help pay for his sister's operation.

508 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:46:13pm
509 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:46:28pm

re: #502 joecitizen

man, I've never seen obama so bad..completely out of his element...

It's the beta male in way over his head.

510 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:46:41pm

re: #472 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Dang! If we ever were to move to Roanoke.....(possible, not necessarily likely).....I've always thought that would be a nifty place to live.

How come moonbats infest all the nice places?

511 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:46:41pm

re: #503 PAgirlinNC

Check youtube. Should be there soon, I'm sure.


Will do, thanks!

512 jtm371  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:46:44pm

redsox nation is on the edge of the cliff.tampa 5 sox's 0.poor matt damon john fingggggggg kerrey and all the kennedys can bite it!BOOMER SOONER!

513 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:46:45pm

re: #504 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Wait, as to the moonbat driven Gallup, isn't that the one that gives BO some leeway because he's black? Didn't I read somewhere that the polls were padded? I called it Affirmitave Action Poling on one of the threads.

Dunno... I still haven't figured it out.

RCP gives them both as 1/2 a poll. Who knows?

514 swamprat  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:47:09pm

re: #502 joecitizen


A man without self humor----bad thing-----good warning sign, though......

515 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:47:27pm

re: #375 loflyer

Yaar, an interesting point, mate. All though there is evidence pointing to evolution in the as the model of development of terrestrial life, there is also considerable evidence that the universe as described in Genesis at the creation of the universe is stinkingly similar to the models of the big-bang.....

Except for the whole bit about everything being done in six days a few thousand years ago. Doesn't jive with radiometric dating or the red shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo background radiation. And then there's the problem that DNA presents for the notion that tens of millions of existent and extinct species were all independently created as is in the space of a few days.

516 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:47:35pm

re: #509 DistantThunder

It's the beta male in way over his head.

yeah..in a room full of serious alpha's...

517 PAgirlinNC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:47:36pm

re: #502 joecitizen

I noticed Obama was looking really tired and old looking. It's funny-McCain is supposed to be the old guy but when you see him, he always looks awake and alert and on.

518 sparrowlake  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:47:52pm

Why can't these maroons keep their mouths shut until after the election. Don't they realize that they are turning away millions from voting Republican with their ooga booga bullshit?

519 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:47:55pm

Palin has a tremendous sense of humor.

520 Spellcheck  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:48:00pm

re: #499 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I said it this morning...Joe should not buy a plumbing business. He'll be successful beyond his wildest dreams if he just hangs out is shingle tomorrow.

According to McCain's remarks at the dinner, some wealthy couple has already hired Joe to take care of the plumbing at all of their seven houses. LOL

521 Archimedes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:48:23pm

re: #486 Basho

What did he say about him?

See post #164.

522 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:48:25pm

re: #510 wolfie


How come moonbats infest all the nice places?

Serious answer? University dorms.

523 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:48:42pm
524 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:49:02pm

re: #518 sparrowlake

Why can't these maroons keep their mouths shut until after the election. Don't they realize that they are turning away millions from voting Republican with their ooga booga bullshit?

Totally disagree....seeing Mccain like this was awesome.

525 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:49:37pm

re: #517 PAgirlinNC

I noticed Obama was looking really tired and old looking. It's funny-McCain is supposed to be the old guy but when you see him, he always looks awake and alert and on.

That's because Michelle O isn't his wife...the lovely Cindy is.

526 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:49:40pm

re: #524 DistantThunder

Totally disagree....seeing Mccain like this was awesome.

Perhaps sparrow was talking about the IDers?

527 Archimedes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:50:13pm

re: #437 LoFlyer

I'll raise you a Flesh wound! I admire his perseverance, a quality that I take pride in, mate!

Yes, one of my favorite funny scenes. :D

528 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:50:14pm

re: #257 Bubblehead II

I repeat NO CREDIT for these courses. It is a voluntary choice.

If the student has the required credits in the CORE classes to graduate, they are allowed to take these ELECTIVE classes

So a student wants to take the course. Fine. He/She/It get no credit for it and the district/State doesn't pay for it.

As long as the Student has the required credits in the CORE classes to properly graduate, I don't see/have a problem with them taking a religious based course during school hours. It beats the hell out of them leaving the school grounds to do what? I leave that last question open to inquiring minds. I know what I did with my "free time"

You seem to be contradicting yourself. When I went to High School, I had a defined list of courses that I had to take. Some 44 credits through the 4 years. 11 of those were electives and the rest were the CORE. So if a students gets "no credit" for their course, then how is it applied to the electives? If it is applied to a number of electives, then obviously he/she got credit for taking this course. If not, then the student would still be required to fulfill their full quantity of electives before graduation and the religious training becomes nothing more than an out of school activity.

529 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:50:30pm

re: #524 DistantThunder

Totally disagree....seeing Mccain like this was awesome.

Well played.... :-)

530 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:50:37pm

re: #480 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Gallup 49-47 bho.

Gallup? Really?

Let's see . . . 49 to 47 in BHO's favor? That leaves 4% undecided, and McCain getting undecideds 4:1 (which means adding 3.2% to McCain's numbers, and .8% to Obama's numbers). That results in 50-50, so all they're saying is that they don't know who is going to be the next president.

531 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:51:02pm

re: #517 PAgirlinNC

I noticed Obama was looking really tired and old looking. It's funny-McCain is supposed to be the old guy but when you see him, he always looks awake and alert and on.

Cocaine!

532 nyc redneck  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:51:19pm

re: #164 faraway

Video Obama makes fun of Joe the Plumber

re: #486 Basho

533 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:51:21pm

re: #514 swamprat

A man without self humor----bad thing-----good warning sign, though......

It IS a warning sign, for sure.
Says a lot about him.

534 DistantThunder  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:51:38pm

re: #530 gmsc

Let's see . . . 49 to 47 in BHO's favor? That leaves 4% undecided, and McCain getting undecideds 4:1 (which means adding 3.2% to McCain's numbers, and .8% to Obama's numbers). That results in 50-50, so all they're saying is that they don't know who is going to be the next president.

Rove said that there are twice as many undecided voters this year as 2006. Obama can't close the deal.

535 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:51:49pm

re: #504 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

Wait, as to the moonbat driven Gallup, isn't that the one that gives BO some leeway because he's black? Didn't I read somewhere that the polls were padded? I called it Affirmitave Action Poling on one of the threads.

Actually, there are three Gallup models now in use. There's the registered voter model and two likely voter models. The first likely voter model, which Gallup is calling the "traditional model", requires that individuals have a history of having voted previously to be called a likely voter; the other likely voter model does not require prior voting. This new model was developed to pull in more newly registered voters. You can find the results using all three of these models, as well as a fuller description of these models, here.

536 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:51:53pm

re: #530 gmsc

Let's see . . . 49 to 47 in BHO's favor? That leaves 4% undecided, and McCain getting undecideds 4:1 (which means adding 3.2% to McCain's numbers, and .8% to Obama's numbers). That results in 50-50, so all they're saying is that they don't know who is going to be the next president.

This is better than Obama measuring the drapes at the White House and planning his celebration at Grant Park.

537 PAgirlinNC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:52:13pm

re: #525 The Pulchritudinous Patriot

That's because Michelle O isn't his wife...the lovely Cindy is.

True. Michelle has probably been chewing his ass out since he slipped up and revealed his mater plan of socializing the US.

538 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:52:18pm

re: #523 buzzsawmonkey

Alpha! Omega!

Because of Barack Obama, I am inspired to make references to Joe the Plumber!

Alpha! Omega!

Because of Barack Obama, I am a product of an education system who does not teach me what the words Alpha/Omega mean.

539 MPH  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:52:24pm

Sick, sick, sick....

Speaking of sick...watching SNL on Thursday night. It's the McCain sucks live show. Juvenile attacks...

540 CynicalConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:52:28pm

re: #519 DistantThunder

Palin has a tremendous sense of humor.

I'd love to see her deliver one of these roasts!

541 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:52:38pm

Not to change the subject, but my hamster is a pig. I have sunflower seed shells all over the den floor near her cage.

She's also picky, she apparently doesn't like the corn in the food mix, so she throws that out of the cage too.

But she's cute.

When she isn't biting.

542 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:52:53pm

re: #522 Basho

LOL.
Okay. You got me w/ that one!

543 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:52:55pm

re: #530 gmsc

Let's see . . . 49 to 47 in BHO's favor? That leaves 4% undecided, and McCain getting undecideds 4:1 (which means adding 3.2% to McCain's numbers, and .8% to Obama's numbers). That results in 50-50, so all they're saying is that they don't know who is going to be the next president.

If the election is a tie the House of Representatives decide who will be president. So Obama wins anyway, yay!

/

544 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:52:58pm

re: #527 Archimedes

Yes, one of my favorite funny scenes. :D

Then you'll love the stuffed killer rabbit, the killer rabbit slippers, and the stuffed black knight with removable limbs!

545 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:53:05pm

re: #515 Salamantis

Except for the whole bit about everything being done in six days a few thousand years ago. Doesn't jive with radiometric dating or the red shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo background radiation. And then there's the problem that DNA presents for the notion that tens of millions of existent and extinct species were all independently created as is in the space of a few days.

The Chabad rabbis where I go to shul will say that the world was created 5769 years ago, but it was already billions of years old when it was created.
To me, this says G-d is faking us out. Yet He wants us to understand the universe, so why put in misinformation like this?

Personally, I say that science shows how G-d created the universe, and there is no contradiction, when we really understand what is in the Torah.

546 infidel Alan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:53:30pm

Does anyone else here dislike/distrust T. Boone Pickens and his BS "program?"

547 Florida Lady  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:53:32pm

I'm late to this thread and haven't read all the posts . . . has anyone discussed what's been happening to my new hero, Joe the Plumber?

[Link: minx.cc...]

The One's surrogates move fast to try to destroy people. It's scary.

548 Taqyia2Me  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:53:33pm

re: #537 PAgirlinNC

True. Michelle has probably been chewing his ass out since he slipped up and revealed his mater plan of socializing the US.

Yeah, talk about "telegraphing one's punches."

549 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:53:53pm

re: #514 swamprat

A man without self humor----bad thing-----good warning sign, though......

Can you self-blasphemize?

550 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:53:53pm

re: #530 gmsc

Let's see . . . 49 to 47 in BHO's favor? That leaves 4% undecided, and McCain getting undecideds 4:1 (which means adding 3.2% to McCain's numbers, and .8% to Obama's numbers). That results in 50-50, so all they're saying is that they don't know who is going to be the next president.

Where did you hear that McCain was picking up undecideds at a 4:1 ratio? Just curious.

551 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:54:25pm

re: #540 CynicalConservative

I'm not predicting a McCain win this time. It'll be interesting to see if Palin's national political career goes beyond this election. I think she was put in the spot light a little early.

552 swamprat  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:54:31pm

re: #546 infidel Alan

Put me down as a yes to that question.

553 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:54:42pm

re: #538 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

ROFLMAO !

554 sparrowlake  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:54:59pm

re: #524 DistantThunder

Was referring to the subject of this thread - anti-evolution whackjobs gone wild.
(McCain was hilarious.)

555 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:55:04pm

re: #543 Basho

If the election is a tie the House of Representatives decide who will be president. So Obama wins anyway, yay!

/

Basho, you're confused. It's the polls that are 50/50. That doesn't mean the election will be 50/50.

556 solomonpanting  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:55:24pm

I don't care how many votes Obama gets, as long as he fails to win 270 Electoral Votes.

557 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:55:37pm

re: #546 infidel Alan

Does anyone else here dislike/distrust T. Boone Pickens and his BS "program?"

Boone's trying to ride the wave of the next boondoggle...

Follow the money.

558 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:55:44pm

re: #547 Florida Lady

His Personal Destruction is well underway, via the MSM.

559 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:56:09pm

re: #555 gmsc

Heh, yeah I know, it was a lame joke.

560 legalpad  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:57:00pm

re: #508 buzzsawmonkey

Contrary to what Letterman believes, smirking is not wit. Cruelty is not humor. Arrogance is not elegance.

Bullseye.

561 LoFlyer  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:57:30pm

re: #515 Salamantis

Except for the whole bit about everything being done in six days a few thousand years ago. Doesn't jive with radiometric dating or the red shift coefficient of the Big Bang echo background radiation. And then there's the problem that DNA presents for the notion that tens of millions of existent and extinct species were all independently created as is in the space of a few days.

Yaaar mate, discounting the time ratio many of the elements of the first verses of Genesis were present in current models of the Big-bang. If relativity and time is factored in, seven days to God might be considered 7 billion years.....

562 Archimedes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:57:33pm

re: #544 gmsc

Then you'll love the stuffed killer rabbit, the killer rabbit slippers, and the stuffed black knight with removable limbs!

So you're Merchandising.

563 ggt  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:58:32pm

good evening Lizards. It was nice today in the Very Far Western Suburbs of Chicagoland today.

The Obama connection to the Joyce Foundation really has me bend out of shape. Which is rather interesting since I didn't that I could learn anything more about him that would cause me discomfort.

I will say that Joe the Plumber has given me a lot of hope. More than Obambi ever has.

How are you-all this evening?

564 JacksonTn  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 6:59:35pm

re: #558 rawmuse

His Personal Destruction is well underway, via the MSM.

I feel really sorry for him ..... and I hope dailyidiots kidz live in hell for what they are doing to him ....... but Joe the Plumber ........ is not about a single man/woman any longer ........ and they cannot take that away from McCain ........ Joe the Plumber is every small business person in this country (like me) who just wants a chance to work hard and keep our own money ....... we are taxed enough .....Senator Government let his mask slide for a few moments and he will pay dearly .........

565 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:00:24pm

re: #563 ggt

Great evening... got to watch Mac do a great speech at the Smith Dinner and Obama look way out of his league right after it.

Oh, its been an hour or so:

I am Joe the Plumber!

566 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:00:35pm

I am at my sister's house doing laundry (out of town for longer than I brought unmentionables) and all the plug ins and crap don't work, so I can't pick up the YouTube stuff.

Anyway, speaking of unmentionables...saw a great bumper sticker today...

Spandex. It is a privilege; not a right!
567 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:00:42pm

re: #523 buzzsawmonkey

Alpha! Omega!

Because of Barack Obama, I am inspired to make references to Joe the Plumber!

Because of buzzsawmonkey, I am inspired to make reference to Wallace Stevens!

568 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:00:45pm

re: #488 Kosh's Shadow

He'll supply soma, in his brave new world.

Soma is already available. It's a muscle relaxant brand name.

569 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:01:04pm

re: #505 DistantThunder

You MUST see McCain - it was the highlight of the campaign.

McCain will be on Letterman tonight.

570 Florida Lady  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:01:36pm

re: #558 rawmuse

His Personal Destruction is well underway, via the MSM.

Sickening. Disgusting.

Obama's thugs have affected my family and he's not even in office. So we know a very small sliver of what Joe is feeling.

I told my husband if The One came to MY doorstep, I'd slam the door in his arrogrant face.

I'd say more, but I don't want to be banned.

571 ggt  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:01:37pm

re: #564 JacksonTn

Remember awhile back Obambi said "he couldn't be Swift-Boated"?

thought he was teflon-coated, like others of his kind, he is his own kryptonite.

572 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:01:56pm

re: #564 JacksonTn

I feel really sorry for him ..... and I hope dailyidiots kidz live in hell for what they are doing to him ....... but Joe the Plumber ........ is not about a single man/woman any longer ........ and they cannot take that away from McCain ........ Joe the Plumber is every small business person in this country (like me) who just wants a chance to work hard and keep our own money ....... we are taxed enough .....Senator Government let his mask slide for a few moments and he will pay dearly .........

Don't forget guys like me who grew up playing Super Mario and think plumbers kick ass! To the lava pits for Obama, Bowser, and his ilk!

573 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:02:01pm

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

574 Alouette  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:02:05pm

re: #429 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Oh oh oh! Today I was in Richmond Virginia, had an hour to kill so I went to the "Hollywood Cemetery". John Tyler, James Monroe, J.E.B. Stuart (my uncle) are buried there, along with 18,000 Confederate dead.

Shockoe Cemetery has a special section for Jewish Confederate soldiers.

575 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:02:13pm

re: #547 Florida Lady

I'm late to this thread and haven't read all the posts . . . has anyone discussed what's been happening to my new hero, Joe the Plumber?

[Link: minx.cc...]

The One's surrogates move fast to try to destroy people. It's scary.

The politics of personal destruction, a tactic promoted by Saul Alinsky and popularized by the Clintons.
Either pick a PERSON who can be made to embody an idea, or use persons that your enemy has picked as emblematic. Isolate. Marginalize/ridicule. Demonize.
Alinsky argues that people do not naturally hates ideas, so you must use hatred of a person to lead them toward the proper mental state.

576 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:02:13pm

re: #569 JustMyView

Just curious- have you read the Republican Party platform yet?

577 Dianna  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:02:54pm

So, essentially, Joe the Plumber is being vetted more closely than Obama has ever been?

This is infuriating.

578 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:03:08pm

re: #564 JacksonTn

I feel really sorry for him ..... and I hope dailyidiots kidz live in hell for what they are doing to him ....... but Joe the Plumber ........ is not about a single man/woman any longer ........ and they cannot take that away from McCain ........ Joe the Plumber is every small business person in this country (like me) who just wants a chance to work hard and keep our own money ....... we are taxed enough .....Senator Government let his mask slide for a few moments and he will pay dearly .........

It was reported today that Joe made $40,000 last year. His life circumstances would have to change a good deal for him to be susceptible to a tax increase.

579 LoFlyer  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:03:12pm

re: #564 JacksonTn

I feel really sorry for him ..... and I hope dailyidiots kidz live in hell for what they are doing to him ....... but Joe the Plumber ........ is not about a single man/woman any longer ........ and they cannot take that away from McCain ........ Joe the Plumber is every small business person in this country (like me) who just wants a chance to work hard and keep our own money ....... we are taxed enough .....Senator Government let his mask slide for a few moments and he will pay dearly .........

Haar, mate! they are giving him the "Palin treatment". Drop 30 investigators to find every piece of dirt they can find on the poor bastard. If the same happened to me, I would probably be forced to hunt down and kill everyone of the bastards before they destroyed 'me pirate life!

580 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:03:51pm
581 ggt  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:04:09pm

re: #565 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)

WHAT?

582 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:04:14pm

re: #562 Archimedes

So you're Merchandising.
[Link: www.youtube.com...]

Now's the best time! You can't merchandise in a socialist economy.

(Besides, it's Monty Python doing the merchandising.)

583 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:04:17pm

re: #567 joecitizen

Because of buzzsawmonkey, I am inspired to make reference to Wallace Stevens!


how's that for obscure?

584 solomonpanting  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:04:20pm

re: #578 JustMyView

It was reported today that Joe made $40,000 last year. His life circumstances would have to change a good deal for him to be susceptible to a tax increase.

Some folks are able to see beyond themselves and see what is right and moral.

585 LoFlyer  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:04:39pm

re: #580 buzzsawmonkey

I would have great respect for John McCain if he did a nice Three Stooges "whoop whoop whoop," bitch-slapped Letterman, twisted his nose, and walked off.

LOL, mate!

586 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:04:42pm

Are we just going to ignore JMV? Wishful thinking, I know.

587 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:04:50pm
588 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:05:06pm

re: #580 buzzsawmonkey

I would have great respect for John McCain if he did a nice Three Stooges "whoop whoop whoop," bitch-slapped Letterman, twisted his nose, and walked off.

Won't happen. I saw a clip. He apologizes for having blown him off last time around.

What's so objectionable about Letterman?

589 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:05:23pm

re: #580 buzzsawmonkey

I would have great respect for John McCain if he did a nice Three Stooges "whoop whoop whoop," bitch-slapped Letterman, twisted his nose, and walked off.

water all over my laptop...lmao

590 nyc redneck  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:05:36pm

every time the worthless msm slams the plumber, american citizens despise them more and galvanize around mccain.
the msm may try to harm him but they cannot destroy the truth of his message.
his message is unassailable.
it will resonate every where no matter how much the msm tries to silence him.

591 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:06:01pm

re: #573 rawmuse

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.

I saw the punchline coming, but I laughed anyway.

592 Florida Lady  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:06:10pm

re: #578 JustMyView

It was reported today that Joe made $40,000 last year. His life circumstances would have to change a good deal for him to be susceptible to a tax increase.

Wow, who is it that knows what he earns? That should be pretty private, unless he or his family chose to disclose it.

593 capefear  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:06:14pm

Charles,

Have you ever read the Humanist Manifesto. I would give you a link if it were printed on Wikipedia. As they define it, it looks a lot tamer than version I read. That was a long time ago but as I remember it, it was openly anti-religion and this seems to be something similar but with the opposite goals.

Would going back to the days before humanism was rampant be threatening to you? Does the idea of few unwanted pregnancies, very little venereal disease, such rare cases of children killing their parents, Lizzie Borden became legend, is this unappealing to you? I don't think there were many cases of parents murdering their children either.

Jack the Ripper and Boston Strangler, some other evil men who became legends. Can we even remember half of the serial killers we have had lately or have we even found half of them today? Do you not see a any connection?

Having said all that I don't know that this idea of theirs is the right approach to healing this nation. Only God changing peoples hearts will do that. But I do think it's well-intentioned. What you have in this society today, by any honest, rational assessment is depravity and I can't blame people for trying to, in some way influence a reverse in the trend, can you?

I know that your afraid of something like an Islamic State being imposed here. I would certainly be afraid of that too. But having things put back to a place where Judeo-Christian morality set the tone for our nation, would correct most of the ills in our society.

As a Christian I get too wrapped up in trying to change things politically and I shouldn't. God is in charge of what the future of this country will be and if we continue the way we are going, I have no hope for it.

You can all start dinging me now. Glad you can't pelt me with stones.

594 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:06:23pm

re: #578 JustMyView

Not exactly. If his company's business gets hit with a tax increase, his job might go poof. If he's trying to start his own business, he's hit with tax hits because of falling into the income bracket Obama is targeting.

But the real issue isn't what Joe said or who Joe is - it's that Obama's socialism was revealed in all its gory splendor.

He's pushing redistribution of wealth as the way forward.

595 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:06:27pm

re: #588 JustMyView

Won't happen. I saw a clip. He apologizes for having blown him off last time around.

What's so objectionable about Letterman?

He is a smarmy ass, I never watch him. But I may tonight.

596 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:06:29pm
597 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:06:47pm

re: #578 JustMyView

It was reported today that Joe made $40,000 last year. His life circumstances would have to change a good deal for him to be susceptible to a tax increase.

He wants to buy a business. He wants to know if schlepping around in peoples' toilets for 16 hours a day is going to be a dead end for him, or if he can go farther. He wants to succeed. He wants to grow a business. He does not want to be punished for excellence. He does not want to settle.

Obama would have us all SETTLE for where we are, and take away any incentive to grow, improve and prosper.

I prefer the American Dream to settling, thank you very much.

598 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:06:58pm

re: #584 solomonpanting

Some folks are able to see beyond themselves and see what is right and moral.

He didn't seem to be talking about what is right and moral. He seemed to be talking about what might happen to him if he bought the business he currently works for, which, I heard today, made about $100,000 last year--well short of the figure that would trigger a tax increase under Obama's tax proposals.

599 Rancher  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:06:59pm

Can we go off topic yet? With creationism threads I never know. I just got a call from a man from Taos who supports Senator Government. A plumber from Taos!

600 legalpad  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:07:05pm

re: #554 sparrowlake

Well, do you really think millions will be turned away over some ancient religious issues? Even if doing so would lose them millions of dollars? I don't think anyone on the right really fears the Christians that much anymore. Theologically, it seems that the idea of evolution would only relate to some rather precise interpretations of The Bible, and not necessarily to general belief in God or even Jesus in whatever role they see him. I don't understand that particular view, though I know some really great people who have that view. They don't seem to want to change anyones views.

601 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:07:21pm

re: #580 buzzsawmonkey

I would have great respect for John McCain if he did a nice Three Stooges "whoop whoop whoop," bitch-slapped Letterman, twisted his nose, and walked off.

It's "woob woob woob"! DIE, HERETIC!

/push
//splash

602 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:07:27pm

re: #587 buzzsawmonkey

Pretty good. Wasn't Stevens more of a blank-verse guy?


for a dentist he was pretty damned flowery..heh

603 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:07:33pm

re: #593 capefear

Wow! You have that little disregard for the Constitution?

604 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:07:38pm
605 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:08:20pm

re: #587 buzzsawmonkey

Pretty good. Wasn't Stevens more of a blank-verse guy?

No, you're confusing him with Justice John Paul Stevens... /

606 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:08:26pm

re: #279 jcm

Put away the pin Frog, do not poke the bubble!


Aha!
that was a drive by post - sorry.


I had to go pick up my cat from the vet. He head is now shaved. poor girl.

607 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:08:33pm
608 Florida Lady  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:08:33pm

re: #597 mama winger

He wants to buy a business. He wants to know if schlepping around in peoples' toilets for 16 hours a day is going to be a dead end for him, or if he can go farther. He wants to succeed. He wants to grow a business. He does not want to be punished for excellence. He does not want to settle.

Obama would have us all SETTLE for where we are, and take away any incentive to grow, improve and prosper.

I prefer the American Dream to settling, thank you very much.

Mama Winger, I salute you - and updinged you - for that!

609 The Pulchritudinous Patriot  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:08:50pm

I'm watching the replay of Mac at the dinner...that dude is funny!

I love the ACORN underserved over looked lines!

610 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:09:06pm

re: #592 Florida Lady

Wow, who is it that knows what he earns? That should be pretty private, unless he or his family chose to disclose it.

I heard it reported second hand, but I think he said it himself on one of the morning shows. Can't say for sure though.

611 Dianna  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:09:09pm

re: #578 JustMyView

It was reported today that Joe made $40,000 last year. His life circumstances would have to change a good deal for him to be susceptible to a tax increase.

And this is significant? The man is a citizen. He asked a question. He answered some questions from the press.

Why is his income, or (frankly) much of anything important? He wasn't a youtube debate plant, so what do we care?

Why aren't the press investigating Obama this way? Why are the press and the blogosphere tearing into Joe the Plumber's life this way?

612 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:09:33pm

re: #593 capefear
self pitying fool!

613 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:09:52pm

re: #608 Florida Lady

Mama Winger, I salute you - and updinged you - for that!

Thank you. To me it is just so obvious - isn't America the land of opportunity? Or are we now just the land of "mediocrity for everyone as long as its fair"?

614 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:10:26pm
615 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:10:29pm

re: #593 capefear

WTF- you think evolution is to blame for serial killers?!

616 ggt  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:10:59pm

re: #606 FrogMarch

Poor thing, bet she looks funny tho.

617 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:11:02pm

re: #550 JustMyView

Where did you hear that McCain was picking up undecideds at a 4:1 ratio? Just curious.

It's an oft-quoted number by the PUMAs. In almost every election during the democrat primaries, the undecideds went against Obama 4:1.

618 Rancher  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:11:05pm

re: #606 FrogMarch

He head is now shaved. poor girl.

OMG what else did they do?

619 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:11:12pm

re: #593 capefear

Things weren't as rosy as you'd like to think in those times.

620 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:11:18pm

And since when was a license, plumber or otherwise, a prerequisite for asking a politician a question?

621 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:11:56pm

re: #597 mama winger

Obama would have us all SETTLE for where we are, and take away any incentive to grow, improve and prosper.

Given the journey Obama has traveled in his own life, does it seem even remotely plausible that he is the kind of person who thinks "settling" is good enough?

622 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:12:03pm

re: #603 Sharmuta

Wow! You have that little disregard for the Constitution?

Irregardless?

623 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:12:05pm
624 Mauser  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:12:11pm

re: #364 DistantThunder

Quick -McCain live on Fox at the Alfred Smith dinner

I've recorded it on my DVD recorder. I've never converted anything into a video for YouTube, but McCain's performance was so fantastic, I'm inspired to try!

625 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:12:25pm

re: #593 capefear

Humanist Manifesto

Which part do you object to?

626 sadhu  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:12:41pm

McCain at the Alfred E. Smith Memorial Dinner

(thanks Gateway Pundit)

627 ClosetConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:12:42pm

Holy CRAP, did anyone watch McCain's speech at the Alfred E. Smith Charity Dinner? He was firing on all 16 cylinders, and it was HILARIOUS! Ab-so-lutely spectacular.

He was taking shots at Obama and Chris Matthews and making the whole crowd laugh and laugh and LAUGH.

628 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:12:46pm

re: #607 buzzsawmonkey

I thought Wallace Stevens was in the insurance game.


oops..you may be right..who am I thinking about then?..Auden,perhaps?

629 solomonpanting  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:12:46pm

re: #598 JustMyView

He didn't seem to be talking about what is right and moral.

I beg to differ. If you heard the YouTube interview he questioned the wisdom of taxing those who worked hard and were fortunate to earn a good income.
And as regards

He seemed to be talking about what might happen to him if he bought the business he currently works for, which, I heard today, made about $100,000 last year--well short of the figure that would trigger a tax increase under Obama's tax proposals

I repeat: He hopes to be in an elevated income level someday and doesn't look forward to paying a much larger percentage than the next guy who earns less. He's able to see beyond his current situation.

630 Naso Tang  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:13:08pm

re: #593 capefear

....But having things put back to a place where Judeo-Christian morality set the tone for our nation, would correct most of the ills in our society........

and when things were back in that place, whenever that was, you think the world was a better place and the ils didn't exist?

Wow.

631 mattm  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:13:18pm

Come on Red Sox!

632 formercorpsman  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:13:20pm

re: #578 JustMyView

Alright, we won't let this get distorted. That is what is what is going on right now.

A simple man went gave them an unexpected run for their money, so now it character assassination time.

You always ask for links and verification, why don't you verify what actually transpired.

This guy is thinking about making a bid for the business he is in. MANY people do this. I have a family business that started from the ground up.

It is easy for people who have the desire to go from 40,000.00 per year to 250,000.00 per year if that is what they aim for.

All in all, this magical number they derived is bullshit. It is PURE class warfare. All of the big city court system rule on this more often than the Constitution.

As someone who worked in the trades early in my life, I could pretty much guarantee, not one person in congress could ever imagine what this guys does on a daily basis.

He is being torn down because he actually questioned what he was being told.

Bullshit.

633 ggt  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:13:34pm

re: #618 Rancher

Ok, so pimf work works if I use it.

634 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:13:35pm

re: #615 Sharmuta

WTF- you think evolution is to blame for serial killers?!

Witch trials too, I hear...

635 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:13:42pm

Damn it! I want a DNA test to prove Joe is really his father's son!
If he's not hiding something, why won't he submit to one?

/

636 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:13:48pm

re: #598 JustMyView

He didn't seem to be talking about what is right and moral. He seemed to be talking about what might happen to him if he bought the business he currently works for, which, I heard today, made about $100,000 last year--well short of the figure that would trigger a tax increase under Obama's tax proposals.

JMV...I have to hand it to you, you're always polite here. The chances of you converting anyone here to your thought process is slim to none...and slim left town...and the chances of you converting are just as remote.

This leads me a very logical question...what's your motivation?

637 talon_262  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:14:07pm

re: #351 gmsc

OT: I'm watching a Weather Channel documentary on the Great Chicago Fire. At their first break they say, "We'll be right back with more on one of Chicago's greatest disasters." The very next ad was for Obama.

Works for me!

Quite ironic, don't you think?

;-P

638 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:14:11pm

re: #617 gmsc

It's an oft-quoted number by the PUMAs. In almost every election during the democrat primaries, the undecideds went against Obama 4:1.

Ok, thanks. I'll have to look around and see whether there's been movement in one direction or the other in the current contest. Breaking toward Clinton wouldn't involve the same policy differences as breaking toward McCain, so the 4:1 ratio might not hold up.

639 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:14:16pm
640 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:14:29pm

re: #593 capefear

Well, we apparently have at least one person here who is in favor of the US emulating Iran's theocratic model in Christian terms.

What are people like that called again? Dominionists, I believe...

641 Basho  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:14:37pm

re: #630 Naso Tang

Hey, haven't seen you posting here in a while. I was getting worried as strange as that might seem, haha.

642 nyc redneck  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:14:41pm

it doesn't matter if he was currently making 40,000 dollars a yr.
this is not a gotcha moment to now discount everything the plumber said.
he is a guy w/ plans and dreams living in america. he has goals and has a right to ask a question abt. taxes to a candidate running for potus.
btw, we the citizens elect the pres. he works for us. we have a right to know what his economic ideas are for this country.
wtf. he is a king above reproach? a fcking bowery bum has a right to ask this grifter abt. his tax plan.

643 Archimedes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:14:54pm

re: #582 gmsc

Now's the best time! You can't merchandise in a socialist economy.

(Besides, it's Monty Python doing the merchandising.)

It is the best time. I'll bet the chix dig that rabbit.

644 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:15:20pm

re: #578 JustMyView

It was reported today that Joe made $40,000 last year. His life circumstances would have to change a good deal for him to be susceptible to a tax increase.

Under Obama's plan, people making 40,000 a year will be taxed at almost 50%.

[Link: taxprof.typepad.com...]

645 LoFlyer  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:15:30pm

re: #597 mama winger

He wants to buy a business. He wants to know if schlepping around in peoples' toilets for 16 hours a day is going to be a dead end for him, or if he can go farther. He wants to succeed. He wants to grow a business. He does not want to be punished for excellence. He does not want to settle.

Obama would have us all SETTLE for where we are, and take away any incentive to grow, improve and prosper.

I prefer the American Dream to settling, thank you very much.

Arrr, Moma, that's what we are all shooting for. The fact that the average "Joe Six-pack" has the media in "Palin pit dog attack mode" dropping in a dozen reporters to dig up the dirt on poor Joe who had the courage to say what a 100 million have been thinking and talking, the word "socialist", and unreported by the average reporter, "Suzie Suppression". This guy is ruined. Palin had people running interference, this poor guy is toast. The IRS will begin his investigation on Monday...

646 Rancher  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:15:30pm

re: #620 mama winger

And since when was a license, plumber or otherwise, a prerequisite for asking a politician a question?

A Non Union contractor that dares do plumbing? Dares ask a question of a Great Democrat?

More! More! You want more of your own paycheck?

Spread the wealth.

647 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:15:48pm

re: #573 rawmuse

Loves me some Emo!

648 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:15:56pm

re: #615 Sharmuta

WTF- you think evolution is to blame for serial killers?!

Well, the ancestors of every serial killer known today do have a history of evolving . . .

;)

649 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:15:59pm

re: #628 joecitizen

oops..you may be right..who am I thinking about then?..Auden,perhaps?


Yes.."Victor-A Ballad" by WH Auden was the poem I was originally thinking of...

650 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:16:06pm

re: #561 LoFlyer

Yaaar mate, discounting the time ratio many of the elements of the first verses of Genesis were present in current models of the Big-bang. If relativity and time is factored in, seven days to God might be considered 7 billion years.....

Yer right, matey!
"a thousand years are like a day in Thy sight, like a watch that passes in the night"
Psalm 90

651 sadhu  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:16:10pm

McCain!

652 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:16:16pm

re: #598 JustMyView
Shut up. You won't be happy until any credibility Joe has is destroyed. That is the only way your awful candidate can look good. You are scary.

653 HoosierHoops  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:16:16pm

re: #631 mattm

Come on Red Sox!

I'd lock up the booze and guns tonight..
/

654 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:16:45pm

re: #621 JustMyView

Given the journey Obama has traveled in his own life, does it seem even remotely plausible that he is the kind of person who thinks "settling" is good enough?

Those who seek power as a life-goal do not always wish for others what they have sought for themselves.

Obama and his allies seem to want to tell everyone else how to live, how much they are allowed to make, what will be taught in their schools. how communities are to be organized, on and on and on.

They are not into dispersal of individual freedom or empowerment for others - they are into centralizing power for themselves and their fellow travelers.

So yes - I think he wants us to settle. I think he thinks we should all just share the wealth we now have instead of creating new wealth for everyone.

655 Pawn of the Oppressor  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:17:03pm

re: #167 Intrepid

Not only that, but egads! The "tanning bed media" (as Ed at Hot Air calls them) is going after poor Joe like they should have gone after Obama.

This will not sit well with middle America!

I would say to them: Keep it up, assholes. Another day and McCain will have enough footage for three or four new ads.

If anybody from Camp McCain is reading: Take these clips and put them into an ad. Make it very clear what a bunch of condescending elitist wallet-rapers these two assclowns are.

And don't end it with Sen. McCain giving a voice-over. End it with him on camera, saying "I'm John McCain, and thank you for letting me show you what my opponents think of you, the average American."

656 poopeedoo  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:17:06pm

Yawn... Creationism AGAIN? Can't we just turn this into a Thursday evening open thread? ... Oh, I see some of you already have! ;)

657 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:17:07pm

re: #648 gmsc

I just realized I'm godless and I forgot to kick a puppy today. How shall I repent?

658 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:17:18pm

re: #653 HoosierHoops

I'd lock up the booze and guns tonight..
/

Hey Hoopster.

659 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:17:31pm

re: #628 joecitizen

oops..you may be right..who am I thinking about then?..Auden,perhaps?

Absolutely not.
But there IS a poet who was a dentist.
I have been trying to think of who it is ever since you said that.
If I can't, I won't get ANY sleep tonight.
I will be very, very cranky.
You are bad.

660 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:17:33pm

re: #636 jorline

JMV...I have to hand it to you, you're always polite here. The chances of you converting anyone here to your thought process is slim to none...and slim left town...and the chances of you converting are just as remote.

This leads me a very logical question...what's your motivation?

It bothers me when I see people saying things that are wildly off-base. Example: Numerous times in the past few weeks, LGFers have said, "Well, we don't need to worry about the polls. They're probably wrong. Just remember that John Kerry was 10-12 points ahead at this point in 2004." But, in fact, John Kerry was a few points behind all the way through October and lost by about 2.4%. It's fine for people to continue to support their candidate, but I hate to see people living in a make-believe world.

Also, I like a good argument.

661 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:17:37pm

re: #632 formercorpsman

Alright, we won't let this get distorted. That is what is what is going on right now.

A simple man went gave them an unexpected run for their money, so now it character assassination time.

You always ask for links and verification, why don't you verify what actually transpired.

This guy is thinking about making a bid for the business he is in. MANY people do this. I have a family business that started from the ground up.

It is easy for people who have the desire to go from 40,000.00 per year to 250,000.00 per year if that is what they aim for.

All in all, this magical number they derived is bullshit. It is PURE class warfare. All of the big city court system rule on this more often than the Constitution.

As someone who worked in the trades early in my life, I could pretty much guarantee, not one person in congress could ever imagine what this guys does on a daily basis.

He is being torn down because he actually questioned what he was being told.

Bullshit.


a thousand hallelujahs

662 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:17:49pm

re: #614 lawhawk

OT:
The McCain roast.

He's got great timing.

663 PAgirlinNC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:17:55pm

re: #578 JustMyView

It's not so much the question he asked but how it was answered by BHO.

664 HoosierHoops  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:18:24pm

re: #657 Killgore Trout

I just realized I'm godless and I forgot to kick a puppy today. How shall I repent?

LOL
you are godless..how would you repent killgore?

665 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:18:30pm

re: #637 talon_262

Quite ironic, don't you think?

;-P

No, it's coincidental!

666 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:18:37pm
667 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:18:45pm

re: #630 Naso Tang

and when things were back in that place, whenever that was, you think the world was a better place and the ils didn't exist?

Wow.

Yep- there was no crime, or immorality until Charles Darwin came along.

668 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:18:52pm

Oh JMV's here! Whoo hoo!

ignore.

669 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:19:00pm

re: #657 Killgore Trout

I just realized I'm godless and I forgot to kick a puppy today. How shall I repent?


kick a coupla those bastards tomorrow..

670 Rancher  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:19:17pm

re: #633 ggt

:)

671 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:19:19pm

re: #616 ggt

Poor thing, bet she looks funny tho.

She looks awful. half of a shaved head is not a good look for her.
She got into a fight with another cat. I think the other cat won. she has an abscess in her ear and the docs had to perform surgery to get to it. she's a scrappy little thing.

672 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:19:37pm

re: #659 wolfie

Absolutely not.
But there IS a poet who was a dentist.
I have been trying to think of who it is ever since you said that.
If I can't, I won't get ANY sleep tonight.
I will be very, very cranky.
You are bad.

Was it Solyman Brown?

673 melinwy  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:19:38pm

re: #614 lawhawk

OT:
The McCain roast.

Thanks for that link. He was hilarious!

674 Naso Tang  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:19:42pm

re: #641 Basho

Hi there. No, I've just been occupied elsewhere, and watching the debates. Did make a few posts the past days, but mostly been lurking. These things go in waves, like the economy. Of course evolution and science is dear to my heart,

/as is health care policy, which we will get back to eventually no doubt.

675 HoosierHoops  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:19:51pm

re: #658 jorline

Hey Hoopster.

Hiya jorline! just got in a bit a go.So it's an ID thread..who got banned tonight?

676 Palandine  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:20:05pm

re: #578 JustMyView

It was reported today that Joe made $40,000 last year. His life circumstances would have to change a good deal for him to be susceptible to a tax increase.

VFI, he wants to buy a business that would put him over the top. That's the American dream--owning your own businesses. The Messiah's tax increases are so unclear that it's entirely unclear whether a business that had 5 employees paid 50k a year would be subject to redistribution of wealth.

Also, VFI, for what it's worth, I DO make considerably less than 250k a year but I still don't believe in socialism and class warfare, which is the crux of the Messiah's spread the wealth income redistribution. Most Americans agree with me. The Messiah will learn this to his regret on November 4.

677 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:20:05pm

re: #657 Killgore Trout

I just realized I'm godless and I forgot to kick a puppy today. How shall I repent?

You get to argue with JMV.

678 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:20:11pm

re: #619 Basho

Things weren't as rosy as you'd like to think in those times.

In America, they weren't exactly keachy peen for blacks, Jews, gays and women, for instance.

679 sparrowlake  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:20:26pm

re: #600 legalpad

Well, do you really think millions will be turned away over some ancient religious issues?



Millllllllllllllionnnnnnsssssss.

680 ggt  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:21:49pm

re: #671 FrogMarch

Oh my. Is she letting you give her attention or is she stay to herself?

681 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:21:49pm

Since when do campaigns pursue background checks on ordinary citizens who ask them questions at political events?

What is this - Stalinist Russia? Have we lost our minds here?

682 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:21:53pm

re: #618 Rancher

OMG what else did they do?

flipiin typos! I just can't stop!
My cat wanted a sex change - officially. she is now a he.
she has a little procedure called an addadicktome.

683 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:21:57pm

re: #669 joecitizen

Agreed. "Thine godlessness require twice the puppies be kick morrow for those unkicked this day."
So sayeth the trout.

684 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:22:14pm

re: #666 buzzsawmonkey

Going from druggie slacker to power-hungry leftist is a journey?

*sizzle*

685 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:22:26pm

re: #666 buzzsawmonkey

Going from druggie slacker to power-hungry leftist is a journey?

Going from being the bi-racial son of a single mother with no political connections or family wealth to being a candidate for POTUS is quite a journey, yes.

686 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:22:54pm

re: #681 mama winger

Any and all threats to The One must be destroyed.

687 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:23:05pm

re: #677 OldLineTexan

You get to argue with JMV.


That's a problem. From what I've seen in this thread the troll is correct.
/But I haven't really been paying attention

688 ChicagoBlue  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:23:26pm

re: #654 mama winger

Those who seek power as a life-goal do not always wish for others what they have sought for themselves.

Obama and his allies seem to want to tell everyone else how to live, how much they are allowed to make, what will be taught in their schools. how communities are to be organized, on and on and on.

They are not into dispersal of individual freedom or empowerment for others - they are into centralizing power for themselves and their fellow travelers.

So yes - I think he wants us to settle. I think he thinks we should all just share the wealth we now have instead of creating new wealth for everyone.

A gazillion hallelujahs!

689 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:23:35pm

So I guess the moral of the story is

if you dare question Dear Leader
your life gets trashed

sounds suspiciously like the Old Chicago Politics to me

Change you can't believe in

690 formercorpsman  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:23:52pm

re: #598 JustMyView

You know, I really should scroll.

Where in the hell does it make one damn bit of difference whether it is 100,00.00, 249,000.00, or 251,000.00?

It is all class warfare. It is all it has ever been.

My retirement is funded by profit sharing with my employer. For a small business with less than 20 employees, I can guarantee that our profit split up among 17 people for retirement goes beyond the mark they set.

They are decreasing my ability to retire in the future. To make myself not dependent on the government, and taking away my freedom to decide when I would like to retire.

Furthermore, these fuckers have already created a retirement system set to pay out more than it takes in, in less than 10 years.

Why can't you see this?
Why can't you see this?
Why can't you see this?


Again, Why can't you see this?

691 Cartman  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:23:58pm

What an unpleasant surprise. I log in to find JustMyBarack is in da house.

692 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:24:02pm

Oh, this is a sad story...

The drop in prices has already created problems for oil producers, who have become accustomed to high prices. Iran and Venezuela both need oil prices at $95 a barrel to balance their budgets, Russia needs $70 and Saudi Arabia needs $55 a barrel, according to Deutsche Bank estimates.

I think this is sadder than "Brian's Song" and "Old Yeller".

693 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:24:04pm

Go Green! Spread Manure, Not Wealth!

694 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:24:22pm

re: #672 JustMyView

Was it Solyman Brown?

No. I'd never heard of him before!
Who'd have thought there is a Poet Laureate of Dentistry?!
Interesting stuff!

695 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:24:30pm

re: #680 ggt

Oh my. Is she letting you give her attention or is she stay to herself?

She's under the bed. The docs said that she was pissed so I'm leaving her alone for a while.

696 capefear  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:24:31pm

re: #386 Salamantis


The fact that these people clearly have an agenda does not mean they are going to be teaching Genesis. I grew up in a day where every day the Bible was read in public school. And we prayed, the horror of it all.
Of course I guess in your opinion, it made me "stupid", but how do you explain all the radicals of the sixties, it certainly didn't affect them much, and they're all very intelligent atheists.

697 swamprat  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:24:32pm

re: #646 Rancher

More! More! You want more of your own paycheck?

"Please sir, may I have some more?"

698 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:24:37pm

re: #693 Kreuzueber Halbmond

Just poop!

699 Naso Tang  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:24:57pm

re: #667 Sharmuta

Yep- there was no crime, or immorality until Charles Darwin came along.

Well, there were the Joooos

/

700 ggt  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:00pm

re: #674 Naso Tang

I've been thinking about this whole Health Care scam. I don't remember it being an issue before HMO's were introduced (about 20 years ago). Has anyone read anything about the evolution of the idea of "free" healthcare? I'm wondering about how it was introduced and festered. Did it start with Medicare?

701 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:06pm
702 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:17pm

re: #685 JustMyView

You do not go from Chicago community organizer to Senator without knowing some big players in the Chicago machine.

So yeah- I'm sooo impressed that anyone could learn to cash in on the politically corrupt system in Chicago to launch their career.

703 HoosierHoops  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:24pm

re: #689 mama winger

So I guess the moral of the story is

if you dare question Dear Leader
your life gets trashed

sounds suspiciously like the Old Chicago Politics to me

Change you can't believe it! in


/good postings tonight mama

704 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:26pm

re: #686 Sharmuta

Any and all threats to The One must be destroyed.

It's like these people are willing to throw away everything good about American democracy, just to get this guy in office.

There is an agenda at work here, and it gives me the creeps.

705 Rancher  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:27pm

re: #682 FrogMarch

LOL!

706 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:28pm

re: #689 mama winger

So I guess the moral of the story is

if you dare question Dear Leader
your life gets trashed

sounds suspiciously like the Old Chicago Politics to me

Change you can't believe in

Unfortunately, Joe doesn't hate America and has never blown up a government building, so there's nothing for the left to appreciate in him.

707 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:46pm
708 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:51pm

re: #566 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Anyway, speaking of unmentionables...saw a great bumper sticker today...

Spandex. It is a privilege; not a right!

And, some of us lost the privilege a looonnngg time ago.

709 wright1  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:25:59pm

re: #214 buzzsawmonkey

Until Joe the Plumber, it was possible for the Obama campaign to maintain the public fiction that the only people supporting the Republicans were throwback racists and uneducated backwoods types. Not true, of course--but with a virtual media blackout on non-Obama-approved material it was an ubiquitous theme.

Joe shattered that illusion by being articulate, straightforward and succinct--an ordinary guy who underscored why Palin resonates with ordinary people, who articulated McCain's position better than McCain himself, who looked and sounded like someone everybody knows, and who did not exude even a whisper of the "racism" the media and the Obama campaign continually harp on.

That is why they are so eager to stuff him back in the box.


The tactic that is being employed by the Dems/Elites/Libs and Propogandists is to attack the messenger. It is tactic #149 from their playbook. So now he is not a plumber and he owes taxes etc, etc. Such an obvious obfuscation from the Truth.

710 SurferDoc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:26:29pm

re: #657 Killgore Trout

I just realized I'm godless and I forgot to kick a puppy today. How shall I repent?

You bought a gun, right? Good. You pissed off a few liberals so your scorecard is clean.

711 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:26:50pm

re: #694 wolfie

No. I'd never heard of him before!
Who'd have thought there is a Poet Laureate of Dentistry?!
Interesting stuff!

Did you ever hear of the veterinarian that was also a taxidermist?

(c'mon Mama Winger! What's the punchline!)

712 infidel Alan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:26:51pm

re: #681 mama winger

Since when do campaigns pursue background checks on ordinary citizens who ask them questions at political events?

What is this - Stalinist Russia? Have we lost our minds here?

Hey, the Obamunist Stalinoids are playing for keeps. Once he and they get into power it's all over.

713 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:26:59pm

re: #660 JustMyView

It bothers me when I see people saying things that are wildly off-base. Example: Numerous times in the past few weeks, LGFers have said, "Well, we don't need to worry about the polls. They're probably wrong. Just remember that John Kerry was 10-12 points ahead at this point in 2004." But, in fact, John Kerry was a few points behind all the way through October and lost by about 2.4%. It's fine for people to continue to support their candidate, but I hate to see people living in a make-believe world.

Also, I like a good argument.

I call bullshit...sorry. That's like looking forward to waking up each morning to a frying pan across the head. I have better things to do than argue...if I do have a disagreement, it's with friends.
I would never look forward to going to Kos or HuffPo everyday to argue my point to a bunch of people who don't give two shits about my opinion.
What motivates you to argue? Sounds sadistic to me.

714 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:27:06pm

re: #681 mama winger
This is going to HURT Obama. This disconnect and contempt for the average guy will resonate with the voters.

715 wright1  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:27:10pm

re: #588 JustMyView

Won't happen. I saw a clip. He apologizes for having blown him off last time around.

What's so objectionable about Letterman?

716 Palandine  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:27:13pm

re: #621 JustMyView

Given the journey Obama has traveled in his own life, does it seem even remotely plausible that he is the kind of person who thinks "settling" is good enough?

VFI, there's an odd subset of people who make it, and then make it their duty to tell other people they can't, without massive government intervention. Helen Keller became a hard-core Marxist. Madonna, a marginally talented working-class girl, became one of the richest entertainers of all time. She's now a hard-core lefty that tries to convince others of their powerlessness. Obama is of the same mold--he feels he is so exceptional that no one could be like him.

717 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:27:16pm

re: #687 Killgore Trout

That's a problem. From what I've seen in this thread the troll is correct.
/But I haven't really been paying attention

Look, you asked for repentance. Ask, and ye shall recieve. Knock, and it shall be opened unto you. Slack, and ye shall be kicked upon thine end.

Get your plumber's bag, and start wondering how you're ever going to be more than a wage slave, now that the Elite class has declared Opportunity closed to new admissions. That's right, I got mine, the rest of you can suck on it.

/
/sort of sarcastic, not completely

718 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:27:27pm

re: #710 SurferDoc

Nope, I'm not a gun owner yet. Maybe someday.

719 HoosierHoops  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:27:48pm

re: #707 buzzsawmonkey

Thanks buzzsaw...

720 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:27:51pm

re: #717 OldLineTexan

Heh.

721 wright1  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:27:55pm

re: #715 wright1

Do you own a television?

722 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:27:59pm

re: #691 Cartman

What an unpleasant surprise. I log in to find JustMyBarack is in da house.

Wendy Testaberger just kicked your ass, dude!

723 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:28:13pm

re: #654 mama winger

Those who seek power as a life-goal do not always wish for others what they have sought for themselves.

Obama and his allies seem to want to tell everyone else how to live, how much they are allowed to make, what will be taught in their schools. how communities are to be organized, on and on and on.

They are not into dispersal of individual freedom or empowerment for others - they are into centralizing power for themselves and their fellow travelers.

So yes - I think he wants us to settle. I think he thinks we should all just share the wealth we now have instead of creating new wealth for everyone.

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

724 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:28:49pm

re: #713 jorline

misanthrope

725 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:28:50pm

re: #704 mama winger

It's like these people are willing to throw away everything good about American democracy, just to get this guy in office.

There is an agenda at work here, and it gives me the creeps.

No. It's not "like" it. It is what they are doing.

726 SurferDoc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:28:53pm

re: #718 Killgore Trout

Nope, I'm not a gun owner yet. Maybe someday.

Ooops. I misfired. Sorry 'bout that.

727 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:29:00pm

re: #718 Killgore Trout

Nope, I'm not a gun owner yet. Maybe someday.

You, of all people, should make one.

I bet it would be sweeeeet.

728 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:29:10pm

re: #696 capefear

The fact that these people clearly have an agenda does not mean they are going to be teaching Genesis. I grew up in a day where every day the Bible was read in public school. And we prayed, the horror of it all.
Of course I guess in your opinion, it made me "stupid", but how do you explain all the radicals of the sixties, it certainly didn't affect them much, and they're all very intelligent atheists.

I'm not sure when you grew up.

But I started first grade in the fall of 1959, and yes, we prayed every day but I went to a Catholic school!

My neighborhood friends in the public schools did NOT pray every day. They said the pledge of allegience, if I recall, and that's about it.

729 Naso Tang  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:29:18pm

re: #692 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

They balance their budgets?

No kidding!

730 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:29:31pm

re: #569 JustMyView

McCain will be on Letterman tonight.

That will be interesting.

I've always wanted to see a cranky, crochety, out-of-touch, old man . . . interview John McCain!

731 CynicalConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:29:38pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

Yeah, it's just another $100 (and another, and another, and another, etc)

732 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:29:46pm

0bama- made friends with the dirty Chicago Machine to make it in politics

Sarah Palin- took on the dirty Alaska Machine to make it big in politics

The American people know what they really want in charge. Not more corruption, but integrity- no matter what JMV says.

733 ggt  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:30:08pm

re: #695 FrogMarch

Cats can get real wonky after change in their habits without their approval. Could you try a peace offer to bribe her into forgiving you? Cheese or Fresh Fish perhaps?

734 poopeedoo  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:30:23pm

re: #656 poopeedoo

Yawn... Creationism AGAIN? Can't we just turn this into a Thursday evening open thread? ... Oh, I see some of you already have! ;)

What? I'm getting down-dings for that? At least I'm not talking about kicking puppies.

/runs and hides.

735 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:30:39pm

re: #708 reine.de.tout

And, some of us lost the privilege a looonnngg time ago.

Not you, mon cherie.

736 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:30:39pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

I see the cult got to you.

737 WriterMom  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:30:55pm

re: #704 mama winger

The creeps are setting the agenda.

738 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:30:57pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think feel Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

Don't piss on us and tell us it's raining. You're not thinking- you're feeling.

739 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:30:59pm

Note to self for future political rallies:

1. Make sure vet assistant license is in order
2. Pay the 81 bucks I still owe on my property taxes (honest - I forgot!)
3. Get a note from my union.
4. Check to make sure I didn't throw any cans in my non-recycling bin
5. Inflate my tires to the proper pressure
6. Make sure I have never voted for a Republican before


Then and only then will I be deemed WORTHY to ask the sacred Politico a groveling question.

Know your place, you peons. Learn it fast - learn it now.

740 LoFlyer  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:31:02pm

re: #681 mama winger

Since when do campaigns pursue background checks on ordinary citizens who ask them questions at political events?

What is this - Stalinist Russia? Have we lost our minds here?

Haaar, Mama we must be on the same wave length tonight. I am thinking of Obama's attempt to stifle debate in Missouri by appealing to local politicians to criminally prosecute any opposing political advertisements deemed "untruthful" by the politburo. Yaar, we are brothers and sisters in arms, mate!

741 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:31:12pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

That is not the job of the president of the United States of America.

742 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:31:41pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think feel Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

Boy- I guess preview really is my friend.

743 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:31:42pm

re: #723 JustMyView

We're not hiring Obama to be inspirational leader. We're hiring him to protect and defend the nation; to protect its values and ideals.

Obama's core values run counter to that. The Constitution and the Founders saw capitalism as the engine of growth. Obama sees socialism as the cure to that problem. Obama's solutions to all that ails the nation is a hodgepodge of socialist rhetoric.

Strip away the inspirational pablum about hope, change, and giving hope to the downtrodden and it's class warfare and socialist claptrap.

744 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:31:55pm

re: #593 capefear

Charles,

Have you ever read the Humanist Manifesto. I would give you a link if it were printed on Wikipedia. As they define it, it looks a lot tamer than version I read. That was a long time ago but as I remember it, it was openly anti-religion and this seems to be something similar but with the opposite goals.

Would going back to the days before humanism was rampant be threatening to you? Does the idea of few unwanted pregnancies, very little venereal disease, such rare cases of children killing their parents, Lizzie Borden became legend, is this unappealing to you? I don't think there were many cases of parents murdering their children either.

Jack the Ripper and Boston Strangler, some other evil men who became legends. Can we even remember half of the serial killers we have had lately or have we even found half of them today? Do you not see a any connection?

Having said all that I don't know that this idea of theirs is the right approach to healing this nation. Only God changing peoples hearts will do that. But I do think it's well-intentioned. What you have in this society today, by any honest, rational assessment is depravity and I can't blame people for trying to, in some way influence a reverse in the trend, can you?

I know that your afraid of something like an Islamic State being imposed here. I would certainly be afraid of that too. But having things put back to a place where Judeo-Christian morality set the tone for our nation, would correct most of the ills in our society.

As a Christian I get too wrapped up in trying to change things politically and I shouldn't. God is in charge of what the future of this country will be and if we continue the way we are going, I have no hope for it.

You can all start dinging me now. Glad you can't pelt me with stones.

As a Christian of a differing stripe, I think you're full of crap.

We don't know how many serial killers there were in the "olden days" because such records weren't kept until Jack the Ripper. Many of those types of killers never leave a note on their victims, much less taunt the police (which, coincidentally are a relatively new invention being only about 150 or so years old).

Lizzie Borden came about in an age of news and newspapers. Being who she was, they sold the sensationalism of the story. I'm very sure there were other, similar killings that took place out of the news's eyes and before there were newspapers. History is not always as idyllic as people like you like to make it out to be.

As for little venereal disease, give me a freaking break. Venereal disease has been rampant throughout history. Several prominent medieval and early modern kings suffered from it. They were rather promiscuous, you know, even though they lived in a "simpler time". As for unwanted pregnancies, there were quite a few, but no way to plan effectively. I don't condone abortion by any means, but they used any method they could to abort a pregnancy. Before there were wire coathangers, there were potions and herbs among other things. Such was the way of the medievals and ancients to get rid of an unwanted pregnancy. I think with contraception, we're better off now.

We are a Judeo-Christian-Grecco-Roman culture. Never forget that it is all of them, not just the first two that are the influences. We could also add Viking and Germanic influences as well. Should I also add the American Indian influences that make the US different from Europe? Frankly put, we are The West: home to freedom-loving peoples who advance themselves through science and engineering and use religion to center their private lives. Welcome to the world since the Renaissance.

745 PAgirlinNC  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:31:56pm

re: #714 snowcrash

This is going to HURT Obama. This disconnect and contempt for the average guy will resonate with the voters.

Unfortunately, it won't be known by the average guy if they get their news from the MSM. The MSM is done with Joe now because every time they interview him, he takes more swings at Obama. The next time you hear about him in the MSM will be "And an update on a story we ran a few months ago. Remeber Joe the Plumber? He was arrested/fired/fined today because it was discovered....."

746 SnakeSpit  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:31:56pm

Do some of you really want censorship?

747 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:32:00pm

re: #696 capefear

The fact that these people clearly have an agenda does not mean they are going to be teaching Genesis. I grew up in a day where every day the Bible was read in public school. And we prayed, the horror of it all.
Of course I guess in your opinion, it made me "stupid", but how do you explain all the radicals of the sixties, it certainly didn't affect them much, and they're all very intelligent atheists.

Oh yessss! Science is Forbidden Knowledge! It's so Eeeevil, that it forced God to turn the Beats and Bohemians into the Hippies and the Yippies, and expel our nation from its Eisenhowerian Eden!

Umm...the Jesus People were some of the most radical of all the '60's hippies.

748 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:32:05pm

re: #713 jorline

I call bullshit...sorry. That's like looking forward to waking up each morning to a frying pan across the head. I have better things to do than argue...if I do have a disagreement, it's with friends.

I would never look forward to going to Kos or HuffPo everyday to argue my point to a bunch of people who don't give two shits about my opinion.
What motivates you to argue? Sounds sadistic to me.

There was no reason to be rude. Different people have different tastes. Every now and then someone is persuaded by information that I present. It's not a major deal, but I like to do my part to make empirical reality a basis for making choices.

749 CynicalConservative  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:32:09pm

re: #738 Sharmuta

Don't piss on us and tell us it's raining. You're not thinking- you're feeling.


re: #741 MandyManners

That is not the job of the president of the United States of America.


Thank you both, well said.

750 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:32:15pm

re: #735 OldLineTexan

Not you, mon cherie.

Ah, merci beaucoup!

751 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:32:36pm

re: #737 WriterMom

The creeps are setting the agenda.

Yup. And the agenda includes making us feel like we cannot survive without the creeps, that we need the creeps, and by God we should love the creeps.

752 Cartman  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:32:42pm

JustMyBarack sees pink poodles and dust clouds of lavender flying out of BHO's arse.

753 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:32:49pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire force people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities laws for them to do those things.

You see, I have heard Michelle speak.

754 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:33:05pm

re: #718 Killgore Trout

Nope, I'm not a gun owner yet. Maybe someday.


like mebbe Nov.5th?

755 akak  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:33:08pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

just say no to crank, bong is for judges

756 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:33:10pm

re: #675 HoosierHoops

Hiya jorline! just got in a bit a go.So it's an ID thread..who got banned tonight?

No one...just politics...lol

757 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:33:12pm

re: #696 capefear

how do you explain all the radicals of the sixties, it certainly didn't affect them much, and they're all very intelligent atheists.

For someone who was not there, you seem to have all of the answers. Some of us came to Christ as a result of that period. Faith is a personal matter in this country and doesn't have a place in the science class. I happen to believe if more people followed the example of Jesus instead of the example of Mohammed, the world would be a better place. Yet, it is not for me to impose religion on anyone as the ID'ers are attempting to do.

758 capefear  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:33:42pm

re: #378 reine.de.tout


I have to admit I briefly scanned it and did not look at page 4. If what everyone here seems to believe is true and they actually plan on teaching religion, I too am against it. But, what the schools are teaching now is the religion of humanism. Children are being taught to be anti-God, Anti-religion. A Christian can't send their child to most Public Schools without the fear of them being indoctrinated in humanism.

759 HoosierHoops  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:33:52pm

re: #743 lawhawk

Also Lawhawk.. I think we elect a president to be the ultimate executive..
The CEO of the United States...

760 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:33:53pm

re: #723 JustMyView

You are extremely naive.

761 JacksonTn  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:33:56pm

re: #578 JustMyView

It was reported today that Joe made $40,000 last year. His life circumstances would have to change a good deal for him to be susceptible to a tax increase.

You just want to take a crap on everything that might be good for us here ..... I will never ever respond to one of your posts again ........ You are a dark cloud ...... I can feel your negativity in your posts ........ you will never take away my optimism ........

***

Socialism is, at its core, utopian. Socialists can't deliver utopia either, but they can always outbid conservatives in an auction for
desirable political outcomes. Periodic economic recessions are inevitable. When one occurs on a conservative watch, socialists
need only seduce a sufficient number of gullible voters with the promise of joy.

I am not falling for it Senator Government ....


Just My View ......... GAZE

762 wright1  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:34:05pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Sorry that would be wrong. BHO wants to impose his world view on this country. That world view has been incubated in leftist, radical, Marxist, Socialist, Communist anti-American notions of what those ideologues believe to be fair and just. Examine BHO's answer last night to who he would nominate for the S Ct.. He said someone who is fair and just. What? That slippery slope is entirely subjective. His job is to nominate those who interptret the Constitution and no legislate from the bench.

BHO also has a platform of taking my money and giving it to another who may not want to work because well, that is fair. You are naiive sir.

763 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:34:09pm

The Obama administration will pass such a flurry of new laws that no one will be able to keep up with them, resulting in that fact that all of us will go sideways with the laws at some point. Our violations of these new and oppressive laws can then be selectively enforced for political purposes.

764 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:34:22pm

re: #714 snowcrash

This is going to HURT Obama. This disconnect and contempt for the average guy will resonate with the voters.

YES - it already is !

765 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:35:10pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

Stalin and Marx had the exact same vision. The idea that humans are
prefectable is pure BS. Human nature demands that we care for ourselves and our families first. Not the "community". Not only that - but this nation was founding on the government staying the hell out of our lives.

Just say no to senator government.

766 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:35:20pm

re: #743 lawhawk

We're not hiring Obama to be inspirational leader. We're hiring him to protect and defend the nation; to protect its values and ideals.

Obama's core values run counter to that. The Constitution and the Founders saw capitalism as the engine of growth. Obama sees socialism as the cure to that problem. Obama's solutions to all that ails the nation is a hodgepodge of socialist rhetoric.

Strip away the inspirational pablum about hope, change, and giving hope to the downtrodden and it's class warfare and socialist claptrap.

Again, I disagree. In a week when a Republican administration has bought equity stakes in the nation's banks, I don't think it makes much sense to accuse Obama of socialism. Progressive taxation has been part of our nation's history for a long time. It doesn't seem to have stopped people from wanting to make money.

767 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:35:22pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

Barack, you're no Jack Kennedy.

768 Florida Lady  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:35:27pm

re: #685 JustMyView

Going from being the bi-racial son of a single mother with no political connections or family wealth to being a candidate for POTUS is quite a journey, yes.

Especially when helped along by the Chicago dirty politics machine & unrepentant terrorists like Bill Ayers.

Tell me again why there is no one respectable from Obama's past who will talk about him?

769 LoFlyer  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:35:53pm

re: #761 JacksonTn

You just want to take a crap on everything that might be good for us here ..... I will never ever respond to one of your posts again ........ You are a dark cloud ...... I can feel your negativity in your posts ........ you will never take away my optimism ........

***

Socialism is, at its core, utopian. Socialists can't deliver utopia either, but they can always outbid conservatives in an auction for
desirable political outcomes. Periodic economic recessions are inevitable. When one occurs on a conservative watch, socialists
need only seduce a sufficient number of gullible voters with the promise of joy.

I am not falling for it Senator Government ....


Just My View ......... GAZE

And a fine view it is mate, just where the heck is Jackson TN anyway? (besides Tennessee?)

770 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:35:55pm

re: #743 lawhawk

We're not hiring Obama to be inspirational leader. We're hiring him to protect and defend the nation; to protect its values and ideals.

Obama's core values run counter to that. The Constitution and the Founders saw capitalism as the engine of growth. Obama sees socialism as the cure to that problem. Obama's solutions to all that ails the nation is a hodgepodge of socialist rhetoric.

Strip away the inspirational pablum about hope, change, and giving hope to the downtrodden and it's class warfare and socialist claptrap.

I feel better in a sad sort of way after this bit of vandalism.

771 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:36:02pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.


Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to punish hard work and reward laziness.

772 faraway  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:36:03pm

re: #768 Florida Lady

Tell me again why there is no one respectable from Obama's past who will talk about him?

We've got a winner!

773 Palandine  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:36:05pm

re: #702 Sharmuta

You do not go from Chicago community organizer to Senator without knowing some big players in the Chicago machine.

So yeah- I'm sooo impressed that anyone could learn to cash in on the politically corrupt system in Chicago to launch their career.

The Messiah would never have even gotten to the senate if Jack Ryan could have kept it in his pants (which one wouldn't think would be difficult considering he was married to Seven of Nine). He started losing primaries once Hillary started telling people the truth about him. He was losing momentum at the end of the primaries, and he certainly hasn't covered himself in glory since then.

The Messiah has a glass jaw. He's so far from being inevitable it's not even funny.

774 buzzsawmonkey[deleted]  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:36:12pm
775 Rancher  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:36:23pm

re: #700 ggt

It started in WWII. FDR froze wages so companies had to come up with some other way to compensate their better employees. Capitalism will find a way, even in a Marxist society. I may be allegedly going to a barter, (black market), economic system if Obama gets elected. My actual take home pay will be quite low. Then all your dollars will belong to me.

776 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:36:46pm

re: #724 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

misanthrope

That hit the nail on the head...ding

777 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:37:15pm

re: #758 capefear

I have to admit I briefly scanned it and did not look at page 4. If what everyone here seems to believe is true and they actually plan on teaching religion, I too am against it. But, what the schools are teaching now is the religion of humanism. Children are being taught to be anti-God, Anti-religion. A Christian can't send their child to most Public Schools without the fear of them being indoctrinated in humanism.

Then wouldn't you think that it would be up to a child's

parents

to make sure, absolutely certain, that the child gets instruction in the faith of choice of the parents, and by a person qualified to teach that faith, not a school teacher with no credentials.

We cannot, and

should

not, expect schoolteachers to do all things.

Go take a look at page 4.

778 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:37:55pm

re: #727 OldLineTexan

I'm not a gun person, in fact I don't really like them but somebody here suggested I start with a black powder musket. That sounds like big fun to me.

779 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:37:58pm

re: #765 FrogMarch

Stalin and Marx had the exact same vision. The idea that humans are
prefectable is pure BS. Human nature demands that we care for ourselves and our families first. Not the "community". Not only that - but this nation was founding on the government staying the hell out of our lives.

Just say no to senator government.

There's nothing that Obama has said that runs counter to taking care of ourselves and our families first. He has, in fact, given several speeches encouraging responsible fatherhood, and I expect that, as president, he would do more of that and would also try to shape policies to support family stability.

780 akak  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:37:58pm

jmv - Bush also just allowed an exemption for Palestinian terror office in DC

where's the baseline?

781 HoosierHoops  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:38:11pm

re: #758 capefear

I have to admit I briefly scanned it and did not look at page 4. If what everyone here seems to believe is true and they actually plan on teaching religion, I too am against it. But, what the schools are teaching now is the religion of humanism. Children are being taught to be anti-God, Anti-religion. A Christian can't send their child to most Public Schools without the fear of them being indoctrinated in humanism.


oh I don't agree at all...That's just silly that you think kids are taught to be anti-god in public schools...

782 wolfie  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:38:43pm

re: #763 rawmuse

Exactly.
And in the meantime, his allies, like ACORN, will be allowed to violate every law in the book.

783 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:38:45pm

re: #733 ggt

Cats can get real wonky after change in their habits without their approval. Could you try a peace offer to bribe her into forgiving you? Cheese or Fresh Fish perhaps?

I will make nice with her as soon as she chills out. Fresh fish is a nice idea. I've got to get her to drink some water. She would not allow the doctors to put in a hydration thingy in.

784 Intrepid  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:39:15pm

First we have Joe the Plumber - now there's Dan and Dick the Plumbers.

This is taking flight!

(via HC Forum)

785 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:39:36pm

re: #765 FrogMarch

Stalin and Marx had the exact same vision. The idea that humans are
prefectable is pure BS. Human nature demands that we care for ourselves and our families first. Not the "community". Not only that - but this nation was founded on the government staying the hell out of our lives.

Just say no to senator government.


TIP TOE THROUGH MY TYPOS.

786 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:39:45pm

re: #768 Florida Lady

Especially when helped along by the Chicago dirty politics machine & unrepentant terrorists like Bill Ayers.

Tell me again why there is no one respectable from Obama's past who will talk about him?

Excellent!

...and, cue Karradine!

787 jorline  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:40:01pm

My wife just got home after camping with my son on a school camp trip for the last week in Big Bend.

If I don't go now I will have a frying pan upside my head in the morning...lol

See y'all in the morning.

788 Palandine  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:40:07pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered

Like give up 40% of their income to the state and withdraw in disgrace from Iraq.

/I know I never considered that

789 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:40:13pm

re: #748 JustMyView

but I like to do my part to make empirical reality a basis for making choices.

This is a hoot. Sen. Barack Hope Obama has exactly what to do with empirical reality?

790 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:40:47pm

My question: why are we spending so many dollars teaching paleontology and archaeology? Are paleontologists and archaeologists two fields that America needs more of? I mean, dinosaurs in education, from k-12 to every other cartoon (in between the Enviro-loon cartoons and teachings). Why? Meanwhile we import (most?) quite a few engineers, doctors, surgeons, programmers, and those fields we don't import practitioners of, we outsource to their own countries. Why the fixation, the focus, on archaeology and paleontology in grade school? I know dinos are cool to little kids, maybe that's why...to make education fun. But hell, use dinos to aid teaching SOMETHING, not the (relatively economically) useless fields of studying what happened a few billion years ago. Use dinos to teach math, programming, (USEFUL) sciences, etc.

I bet America doesn't import paleontologists and archaeologists. We probably turn them away. "Sorry, we got too many of those." We import scientists who are actually of USE to our nation. Why? Because we spend an unbeliveably inordinate and illogical amount of time and resources teaching about Origins. I just want to know why. WTF has paleontology and archeology done for our nation's economy, livelihood, status among nations, etc.?

I have the same questions regarding some Origins-related astrophysics.
"TO WHAT END?" To what end do we tax our nation's earnings and give this money to people who are studying what happened billions of years ago? There should be a result when we spend billions on something, no?
Every time I see an article on Google News (each day brings a new dinosaur, and a new-revised-rewritten idea about universal origins by the space scientists), I read the article, and I think, ok, discovery made, NOW WHAT? Oh, the end result of the study..."Give us more money, this research is vitally important, we need to know more." Ok, when you know more, THEN WHAT? More money, more grants. Gotcha. I guess a benefit is Trickle-Down Economics, thats about all I can see. Paleontologists and archaeologists and astrophysicists (the ones solely concerned with discovering origins) all have money which they spend, providing Joe the Pliumber and Best Buy employees with a paycheck.

But I sure would like to see this engineer/doctor deficit go away. Its not that I don't "like" people that come here from India. Shit they believe in friggin VISHNU and India seems to be able to CHURN OUT SCIENTISTS (who actually do more useful things that we NEED). Why the hell can't we?

-Taq

791 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:40:52pm

re: #787 jorline

My wife just got home after camping with my son on a school camp trip for the last week in Big Bend.

If I don't go now I will have a frying pan upside my head in the morning...lol

See y'all in the morning.

Bye, Jorline!

792 VioletTiger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:40:59pm

re: #709 wright1

They are doing op-research on the plumber...but not the presidential candidate.

793 Naso Tang  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:41:11pm

re: #700 ggt

re: #758 capefear

What are those classes called?

794 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:41:11pm

re: #774 buzzsawmonkey

You need to learn the difference between a preacher and a President.

And soon.

Sneer if you like, but being inspirational has been part of what political leaders do since time immemorial. Reagan didn't become president because he was so good at balancing budgets or because he was intimately familiar w/ the structure of the federal government. He became president because he was able to convey the sense that we could be a better people, a better nation than we thought of ourselves as at the time.

795 lawhawk  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:41:28pm

re: #766 JustMyView

And if you've been paying attention, I've disagreed with the bailout and trying to keep those banks that made bad business decisions afloat. I also think that those who were involved in the decision to push subprime mortgages - forcing banks to lend to subprimes - should be held accountable.

The bailout as it stands right now has set the govt as one shareholder with big stakes in banks, and the ownership interest in banks is in the form of shares. At some point, the sooner the better, they'll divest themselves of their shares, and if the bank shares have increased in value, the government turns a profit.

It's not my idea, but it is better than letting the whole system go in the crapper as the economists are warning if no action were taken.

None of that diminishes the fact that Obama pushes socialism into every aspect of our daily lives - from health care to wealth creation (and transfer).

796 gmsc  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:41:38pm

re: #789 OldLineTexan

This is a hoot. Sen. Barack Hope Obama has exactly what to do with empirical reality?

Are you kidding? Obama, with the help of most news outlets, is the U.S.'s top manufacturer of reality!

797 solomonpanting  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:41:39pm

A
Communist
Organization
Registering
Non-entities

798 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:41:42pm

re: #779 JustMyView

He has, in fact, given several speeches

yes he has

what other evidence can you point to - what other legislative accomplishments can you cite - what private sector experience can you offer us - to show that the man can and has walked the walk?

Certainly not for the district he represented in Chicago. Teh place is a cesspool. The buildings look like downtown Beirut. This while under a Democratic mayor. He could not accomplish squat. The education moves he pushed didn't accomplish squat. The only thing he has ever done is give good speeches.

Let's hire him as the American Motivational Speaker. He can take over for Chris Farlery now that he is dead.

799 capefear  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:41:43pm

re: #757 Kreuzueber Halbmond

As I just posted to reine.de.tout, if that is what they are doing I don't think I would be for that. But as to keeping your faith "private" if the apostles and the Christians who lived during the rule of the Roman Empire keep their faith "private" history would have been a lot different wouldn't it have been? Neither of us would even have heard of Christ, would we. Didn't Christ tell us "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel?"

800 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:41:50pm

re: #758 capefear

I have to admit I briefly scanned it and did not look at page 4. If what everyone here seems to believe is true and they actually plan on teaching religion, I too am against it. But, what the schools are teaching now is the religion of humanism. Children are being taught to be anti-God, Anti-religion. A Christian can't send their child to most Public Schools without the fear of them being indoctrinated in humanism.

Oh bullshit. I went to public schools in the 80s and 90s, and lo and behold, I'm an active, observant Catholic. People forget that parents have more of an effect on their children than teachers and administrators ever could. BTW, science has been practised by quite a few very observant Christians, in the past, and currently. Want me to name a few Jesuits, or should I start with Stephen Hawking?

801 formercorpsman  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:41:51pm

re: #666 buzzsawmonkey

Buzz, you know you are...

truly one of my favorite minds.

Damn, you always make me laugh.

802 HoosierHoops  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:42:02pm

re: #787 jorline

My wife just got home after camping with my son on a school camp trip for the last week in Big Bend.

If I don't go now I will have a frying pan upside my head in the morning...lol

See y'all in the morning.

Well it's friday morning Jorline..we are going with the strong sumatra in the morning to get us through the day..Good night Jorline.

803 nyc redneck  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:42:05pm

this is the beginning of the end for the grifter and his powerful machine, including the msm.
it is why they are going after the plumber w/a vengeance.
they can't fathom that a 'bitter clinger' nobody has some how managed to shine a bright light on them and is exposing their terrible plans for our country.
and what is so unnerving for them is the unplanned unfolding of this situation which they can't control..
it's like it was meant to be. it happened so fast.
behold:
the unintended consequences of arrogant obama talking down to a blue collar worker who doesn't get the gist of socialism.

804 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:42:09pm

re: #779 JustMyView

For someone who claims to be so informed and knowledgeable about politics, I was stunned when you tried to make generalizations about the republican party platform, then went on to admit you had never even read it.

You are a hypocrite of the highest sense to claim enlightened thinking here, while not even bothering to read the platform of the opposition in order to know that with which you feel you disagree. You are ignorant.

805 JohnAdams  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:42:52pm

Simple question, because I have not had the time to review the Obama plan:

Just what exactly does "everyone who makes less than $250,000" mean? Does that mean, in terms of a small business, one that has gross revenues of 250K? In that case, it's easy to see how Joe the Plumber could earn more than 250K and enter the higher tax bracket.

806 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:42:57pm

re: #779 JustMyView

There's nothing that Obama has said that runs counter to taking care of ourselves and our families first. He has, in fact, given several speeches encouraging responsible fatherhood, and I expect that, as president, he would do more of that and would also try to shape policies to support family stability.

Taking 40% of my meager income will not help me take care of me and mine. It will, however, piss me off.

807 Salamantis  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:43:42pm

re: #758 capefear

I have to admit I briefly scanned it and did not look at page 4. If what everyone here seems to believe is true and they actually plan on teaching religion, I too am against it. But, what the schools are teaching now is the religion of humanism. Children are being taught to be anti-God, Anti-religion. A Christian can't send their child to most Public Schools without the fear of them being indoctrinated in humanism.

The absence of dogmatic sectarian indoctrination is not equivalent to the presence of dogmatic secular indoctrination.

808 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:43:51pm

re: #806 FrogMarch

Taking 40% of my meager income will not help me take care of me and mine.

I think it is more about taking care of them and theirs.

809 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:43:59pm

re: #799 capefear

As I just posted to reine.de.tout, if that is what they are doing I don't think I would be for that. But as to keeping your faith "private" if the apostles and the Christians who lived during the rule of the Roman Empire keep their faith "private" history would have been a lot different wouldn't it have been? Neither of us would even have heard of Christ, would we. Didn't Christ tell us "Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel?"

Time and place.
Public school is not the place, nor is schootime the time.

If you are a parent, as I am, it is probably important to you that you guide your child in his/her faith formation, as you deem appropriate. Don't let the DI folks take that right and responsibility away from you.

810 VioletTiger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:44:30pm

re: #764 mama winger


That's why they are digging up dirt on the plumber. So he becomes soiled and therefore not worthy as a symbol of the American dream. They did the same thing to Sarah palin, but their error here is that Joe is not running for office. Therefore I predict their pathetic behavior will backfire in a big way.

811 snowcrash  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:44:48pm

re: #784 Intrepid
Excellent. Obama needs to get a clue. These are real people not some abstraction of what 250k bread earner is.

812 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:44:55pm

re: #779 JustMyView

There's nothing that Obama has said that runs counter to taking care of ourselves and our families first. He has, in fact, given several speeches encouraging responsible fatherhood, and I expect that, as president, he would do more of that and would also try to shape policies to support family stability.

We need a president, not Dr. Phil.
We need a commander in Chief, not a nanny state CEO.

813 MandyManners  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:45:09pm

re: #804 Sharmuta

For someone who claims to be so informed and knowledgeable about politics, I was stunned when you tried to make generalizations about the republican party platform, then went on to admit you had never even read it.

You are a hypocrite of the highest sense to claim enlightened thinking here, while not even bothering to read the platform of the opposition in order to know that with which you feel you disagree. You are ignorant.

It doesn't have pictures.

814 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:45:12pm

re: #789 OldLineTexan

This is a hoot. Sen. Barack Hope Obama has exactly what to do with empirical reality?

In referring to empirical reality, I was talking about using verified facts and data in arguments rather than unsubstantiated opinion. That has nothing to do w/ being an Obama supporter. It's just that, because so few people ever have anything remotely good to say about Obama, the opportunity to introduce facts in his favor arises frequently. Thus, my interest in argument gets conflated w/ my candidate preferences. They are, though, logically distinct, as you rightly (if somewhat rudely) point out.

815 Dianna  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:45:58pm

re: #728 reine.de.tout

I'm curious about something with Capefear.

There's a song I remember running across - it's a folk song. The line is:

Six pretty maids thou hast drowned here -
The seventh hath drowned thee.

The song reads like a description of a deliberate stranger style serial killer to me.

It's fairly old, too. So...is this part of "humanism"? No.

It's population density, not some sort of affliction brought on by evolution or humanism that's bringing out more serial killers.

As for out of wedlock births...

There's a pretty famous poem about a girl (Alisoun) who falls for Jenkin.

I believe it begins, "Jenkin on the Yole Day sang kyrie merrily".
The final line is, "Kyrie eleison thereto; Alas, I go with childe."

Nope. All the modern ills existed, in quantity, well before evolution had been thought of.

816 stevieray  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:46:35pm

re: #810 VioletTiger

That's why they are digging up dirt on the plumber. So he becomes soiled and therefore not worthy as a symbol of the American dream. They did the same thing to Sarah palin, but their error here is that Joe is not running for office. Therefore I predict their pathetic behavior will backfire in a big way.

The regular folks will see it for what it is: the powerful using their connections to bully the little guy.

817 wright1  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:46:56pm

re: #792 VioletTiger

They are doing op-research on the plumber...but not the presidential candidate.

Good point. But of course they are not curious to do so. But looking into who the biological motheris of trig or when old Joe the Plumber filed his last tax return? Well, that is within their intellectual dishonesty.

818 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:46:57pm

Obama's tax give-aways to low income people would directly affect me. I am low income with a partial disability. More money would be great.

But I don't want it. Not at the expense of my country. It's too high a price. What does it profit a person if they gain the whole world and lose their own soul ? How could I look my chidlren and grandchildren in the face if I sold out for a bigger bowl of soup?

America is more important than any one person's personal finances. This is the dream. This is the shining city on a hill.

819 rawmuse  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:47:01pm

I remember one year I made in the six figures. It was pretty good, but when I saw how little of that I got to keep, and what my life was like for that year, it was not a good deal. Now I make less than six figures, but I have a more time with the family and I get to do the things that I want to do.

Like this.

820 Racer X  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:47:10pm

re: #779 JustMyView

He has, in fact, given several speeches encouraging responsible fatherhood, and I expect that, as president, he would do more of that and would also try to shape policies to support family stability.


You have got to be kidding.

The president needs to lecture Americans on "responsible fatherhood"? That is the measure of a good leader?

Jiminy Crickets.

821 formercorpsman  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:47:19pm

re: #723 JustMyView

Serious question.

Has Obama ever had to take a risk, perhaps put his home on the line for credit, in order to start a business, and make a payroll?

Bullshit.

He is a shakedown artist. It is all there.

822 OldLineTexan  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:47:36pm

re: #778 Killgore Trout

I'm not a gun person, in fact I don't really like them but somebody here suggested I start with a black powder musket. That sounds like big fun to me.

You heard correctly.

Flint or caplock?

Caplock has the advantage of an extra explosion, rather than the spark.

Explosives and clouds of smoke. What is not to love? Personally, I have built only one...a 1/6 scale pirate cannon in .50 caliber.

823 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:47:49pm

re: #816 stevieray

The regular folks will see it for what it is: the powerful using their connections to bully the little guy.

And a harbinger of things to come.

824 Cartman  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:48:02pm

re: #794 JustMyBarack

Reagan inspired people to better themselves, unfettered by governmental intrusion. Obama inspires his followers by assuring them that governmental intrusion will improve their lot, with little or no effort on their part. A huge difference.

825 HoosierHoops  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:48:15pm

Joe the plumber just doesn't get it..
It's his patriotic duty to pay more taxes..
jeez..
/must I?

826 formercorpsman  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:48:30pm

re: #738 Sharmuta

Damn straight.

827 capefear  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:48:41pm

re: #800 Honorary Yooper

And to what do you attribute the moral chaos in this country?

828 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:49:12pm

re: #818 mama winger

Gosh, you're swell.

Did you see the joke I set up for you a bit upthread?

829 FrogMarch  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:49:56pm

...and I think we as a nation should be charitable. But let's call it what it is... CHARITY. Charity is good. The government robbing people blind to pay for poorly run government programs? bad.

I don't want the government steeling from me to help pay for the ideas of Barney Frank and Chuck Schumer.

830 Hobbes  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:49:57pm

re: #723 JustMyView

re: #723 JustMyView

Well, I disagree. I think Obama wants to inspire people to do things for their communities, their country, and the world that they never considered--and to help create opportunities for them to do those things.

You've got to be kidding!

831 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:50:06pm

re: #799 capefear

"Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel?"

There is nothing wrong with promoting the virtues of Christianity, but there is a thing in this country called the Constitution. And in matters of state - publicly funded education - religion should not enter.

832 legalpad  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:50:18pm

re: #654 mama winger

I think he thinks we should all just share the wealth we now have instead of creating new wealth for everyone.

Obama knows nothing of creating wealth. He doesn't even know there is such a thing. He thinks the only way you get it is to take it from others.

833 Palandine  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:50:43pm

re: #814 JustMyView

It's just that, because so few people ever have anything remotely good to say about Obama.

Oh, if only someone would say something good about Obama.

Like the two books he wrote about himself. Maybe Rolling Stone could put him on the cover in heroic poses eight or ten times. Maybe Chris Matthews could get a tingle in his leg. Maybe the vast majority of the media would buy into the unfounded attribute that Obama is a great orator. Maybe groups of children could sing to him in adulation. OH, if only someone would say something good about Obama.

834 Cartman  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:50:50pm

Symbolism over substance, emotion over reason.

835 justdontlikematall  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:51:02pm

OT - the Al Smith Dinner is must see tv. Yes it's that good.

I haven't been following this thread so please excuse me if this has been covered.

I just wanted to say that Mc has never been better than tonight.

His writers sure covered all the bases and Mc delivered the not so subtle blows with good nature. O smiled (at times uncomfortably) as his face shined. A hint of flop sweat? Do tell.

Anyone following this long running circus would conclude that Mc was far more effective and likeable in this setting than in any previous one.

O was a real "stiffly stifferson" for the most part.

Yes he finished his turn on a serious note with great oratory.

My wife remarked that self-deprecation is not his strongest suit. Ha!

If every potential "swing" voter saw the uncut Mc and O trading

lighthearted barbs tonight, the choice would be a true no-brainer.

Screw the debates - Last comic Standing!

We will win. Americans will make the right choice! Hero not zero.

836 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:51:04pm

re: #825 HoosierHoops

Joe the plumber just doesn't get it..
It's his patriotic duty to pay more taxes..
jeez..
/must I?

Without the sarc tag, I'd think you were Joe Biden.

837 Florida Lady  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:51:18pm

re: #814 JustMyView

It's just that, because so few people ever have anything remotely good to say about Obama,.

Maybe because there is VERY little good to say about him?

He and his Obamatrons are THUGS.

He's not decent & principled enough to be my President.

Have I mentioned how much I despise him and those with whom he surrounds himself?

838 joecitizen  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:51:19pm

re: #827 capefear

And to what do you attribute the moral chaos in this country?

there has always been chaos, moral and otherwise, in the world...it is what it is...

839 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:51:19pm

re: #822 OldLineTexan

Great fun, black powder. I have a .58 1863 Springfield replica my wife gave me on our engagement 26 years ago.

I love it.

/her too.

840 reine.de.tout  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:51:22pm

re: #815 Dianna

. . .

Nope. All the modern ills existed, in quantity, well before evolution had been thought of.

Yes, of course they did - better hidden, maybe, but they existed just the same.

I fear that what CapeFear is fearing is actually breakdown of respect, manners, discipline in public schools. But that is a whole entire issue than lack of religion. Non-religious people can be perfectly respectful, respectable, mannered and disciplined.

But anyone who fears what the public schools are doing, should send their child to a private school, as I have since my daughter was in kindergarten, and I do it gladly, it is what is best for her.

841 mama winger  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:51:24pm

re: #828 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


Did you see the joke I set up for you a bit upthread?

I did not! I love a good joke - which post?

842 JustMyView  Thu, Oct 16, 2008 7:51:33pm