Boston Museum of Science: Exploring Life’s Origins

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
Science • Sun Nov 9, 2008 at 6:30 am PST • Views: 164

The website of Boston’s Museum of Science has a fascinating “virtual exhibit” titled Exploring Life’s Origins, with excellent graphics, lucid explanations, and cool animations of ribozymes and protocells and other totally geeked out subjects.

(Hat tip: Panda’s Thumb.)

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469 comments

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1 Joan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:32:55am

Kids learn to love science by exhibits like this. The Field Museum had an awesome (I'm told) human anatomy exhibit that my daughter went to TWICE.
Long live Reason, long live Empirical Thought, long live truth.

2 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:37:26am

This is really cool. I can't wait to show this to some of my science loving friends and family- some with kids, who love having a tool like this at their disposal to help teach the kids about science they might not be getting in school.

Thanks, Charles.

3 Shug  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:37:56am

early morning or late night ?

sorry but that Protoplanetary disc clearly lacks Globular clusters
/

4 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:43:49am

This is a cool timeline.

To read ideas on part of the future of evolution, try The Age of Spiritual Machines.

5 docremulac  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:43:59am

Speaking of which... I'm very excited about going to the re-built California Academy of Sciences in Golden Gate Park, San Francisco with the family today. It includes the Natural History Museum, Morrison Planetarium and Steinhart Aquarium. It's always been my favorite place on Earth.

Here's the rub though, I'm going to make a little mental note of how many leftist, globalist, greenist messages there are in the various exhibits. This is in the People's Republic of San Francisco and like all lefties, they view science as a tag or validation stamp that can be put on whatever scheme for world domination they come up with. So my guess is it won't be the Leopard exhibit, it will be the: "Leopard endangered by years of Republican habitat rape for profit" exhibit.

Maybe I'm just being paranoid but this is the city that just had a ballot initiative to name a sewage treatment plant after George Bush. (Got voted down by the way)

I'll report back tonight. Maybe I'll even post pictures if it's interesting enough.

6 Pete-billy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:45:41am

Thank you Charles ! Very nice site with good graphics.

7 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:46:21am

Haar! OT and trolling for Atlanta lizards for our meet at 5 PM, click on 'me avatar for the secret pirate ID, and 'me nic is blue for those needing the location!

8 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:51:33am

Makes me wonder if that's all we really boil down to in the end...

9 realwest  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:51:49am

WOW - Hey Charles - is my clock broken or is it really
not even 8:00AM your time?!

10 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:54:47am

re: #9 realwest

Responded to your #922 on the previous thread.

11 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:55:34am

Fascinating videos and speculation, I recommend watching them all.

12 realwest  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:56:05am

re: #10 laZardo
What is it that gets suggested here at LGF that has you
shivering?

13 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:56:18am

re: #9 realwest

{realwest}

How are you doing?

14 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:56:26am

OK, that is really, really cool

re: #1 Joan

Kids learn to love science by exhibits like this. The Field Museum had an awesome (I'm told) human anatomy exhibit that my daughter went to TWICE.
Long live Reason, long live Empirical Thought, long live truth.

I agree with you 100%.

And I hope I'm not dinged down for the next thing I'll say, but if I am so be it.

For those of us who are people of faith - how can anyone who believes in God look at that exhibit, and not be amazed at the sheer complexity of the origin and evolution of life that He provided?

How can those people deny that this amazingly brilliant and complex process exists in the first place, and then go on to basically say that God could not have created this process?

15 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:56:44am

re: #5 docremulac

If you get the chance stop by the Exploratorium as well.

16 Mich-again  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:56:47am

From the part about fatty acids.

Why are membranes so important for the RNA World? An early RNA replicase probably would not have a built-in way of differentiating between a replicase or non-replicase sequence, and as a result, will make a copy of any RNA that happens to be close by. Without some means of separating the replicases from the non-replicases, the population of replicases is unlikely to grow and prosper. This issue can be resolved if the replicases are placed within a compartment, such as a vesicle, which can physically separate the replicases from other RNAs.

There is a parallel there to the way human culture evolved.

17 Elcid  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:56:53am

realwest...LMAO!

Boston, huh? Maybe they could delve into the gene pool of Massachusetts politicians.

18 realwest  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:57:57am

re: #13 goddessoftheclassroom Hey {goddess} I'm doing ok, but slowly losing my mind over this computer! LOL!
Uh, if y'all get a chance could you e-mail me for a minute?!
Thanks.

19 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:59:43am

re: #15 Thanos

If you get the chance stop by the Exploratorium as well.

Growing up in San Francisco as a kid I could say that was definitely one local landmark I really looked forward to going to. In the days before I moved to Manila in '93 it was the Lawrence Hall of Science.

20 realwest  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:59:54am

re: #17 Elcid
Hey Elcid - how are you and what did I say that was so funny?!? (I HATE it when I say something that makes folks laugh and don't have any idea of what it was I said! LOL).

21 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:01:07am

re: #12 realwest

In the previous thread, it was the Obama presidency.

Sorry for going off-topic for a moment, but I don't even see how it could work out for the positive even if he fails. On one hand the people he mobilized to vote him in could just look for another 'savior of the moment,' on the other they become completely apathetic/disillusioned, pass it onto the next generation and just let their troubles overrun the country.

22 realwest  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:01:14am

re: #19 laZardo
Hey my friend - my question to you in #12 was serious.
What has you shivering over here at LGF?

23 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:02:12am

re: #22 realwest

Just missed the response by 1 post. [:

24 3 wood  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:02:53am

re: #20 realwest

Good morning real.

I think the Giants will easily beat the Eagles today. The Giants are the better team anyway. In addition, McNabb just can not read a blitz to save his life. I would blitz him all day long.

25 BBev  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:03:11am

re: #22 realwest

Hey my friend - my question to you in #12 was serious.
What has you shivering over here at LGF?

I would too, I have been of line for over a week and missed the hole election thing here on LGF.

26 realwest  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:06:24am

re: #21 laZardo
Good thing I remember approximately what time it is where you are, but good Lord - if (when?) Obama fails as POTUS, it will be the fault of: a)Obama b)the MSM and c) hardly irretrievable.
Things are tough right now - economically and in the WoT - Obama has had a lot to do with causing things to be so tough. He'll wind up a one term president and America will demonstrate, as we did with Jimmy Carter, that we can run without any real POTUS at all for quite some time.
However, this really is an OT for this thread which Charles either got up REALLY EARLY on a Sunday morning to put up for us, or stayed up all night to put up for us.
Let me know if you want to go back to the prior thread to discuss this some more.

27 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:07:36am

re: #26 realwest

Right. Sorry for disrupting thread harmony. My #8 is the on-topic post.

28 3 wood  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:08:01am

Watched some of the early morning talk shows, as much as I could stomach.

Based on what the Democrats said to the softballs tossed their way, expect to see lots of big government spending programs. Expect to see a push to nationalize health care early.

They have no clue what to do about a head of the Treasury.

So far the Republican response is in being friends and finding common ground.

The MSM shows I saw are not even making a pretense at having a conservative commentator.

Mary Mitchell, an unabashed, outright racist, is seen as a middle of the road commentator.

29 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:08:16am

re: #1 Joan

Kids learn to love science by exhibits like this. The Field Museum had an awesome (I'm told) human anatomy exhibit that my daughter went to TWICE.
Long live Reason, long live Empirical Thought, long live truth.

If you the Field Museum in Chicago, it was actually the Museum of Science and Industry that hosted that exhibit ("Body Wars" I believe it was called).

30 realwest  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:09:15am

re: #24 3 wood
Good morning my friend! Yep, the Giants SHOULD WIN easily - and that's what scares me! LOL!
But as I said to my friend laZardo,in #26, I really don't want to go OT on this thread
I'm gonna meander back to the prior thread so as to stop going OT on a thread which Charles finds so fascinating - I really don't wish to be rude to our host.

31 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:09:24am

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

If you mean the Field Museum in Chicago, it was actually the Museum of Science and Industry that hosted that exhibit ("Body Wars" I believe it was called).

PIMF

32 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:09:53am

re: #5 docremulac

Please do. I remember touring those museums as a kid and I'd like to see how they've changed.

33 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:11:59am

re: #11 Thanos

Fascinating videos and speculation, I recommend watching them all.

The animation is really fantastic.

34 Dustyvet  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:13:11am

re: #17 Elcid

realwest...LMAO!

Boston, huh? Maybe they could delve into the gene pool of Massachusetts politicians.

Starting with Hanoi John Kerry, and discovering what rock he slithered out from under?

35 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:13:40am

re: #30 realwest

Actually, you could just e-mail me. That'd be nice.

36 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:14:32am

I am back from an aborted breakfest mates! The waffle house was packed and I refuse to wait! Haar!

37 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:15:44am

re: #36 LoFlyer

I am back from an aborted breakfest mates! The waffle house was packed and I refuse to wait! Haar!

So Obama would been rushed in finishing his waffle?

[snicker]

38 Truck Monkey  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:16:46am

re: #24 3 wood

Good morning real.

I think the Giants will easily beat the Eagles today. The Giants are the better team anyway. In addition, McNabb just can not read a blitz to save his life. I would blitz him all day long.

I bet he could read it if it was in big print.

39 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:20:57am

re: #37 Dark_Falcon

So Obama would been rushed in finishing his waffle?

[snicker]


I think we have all waffled a couple of times mates. Obama has a tough row to hoe, and I pray he does what is best for the country rather than the party. Meanwhile I am working on getting 'me last piece of weaponry before the gun ban is put in place!

40 Fearless Fred  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:22:46am

re: #21 laZardo

In the previous thread, it was the Obama presidency.

Sorry for going off-topic for a moment, but I don't even see how it could work out for the positive even if he fails. On one hand the people he mobilized to vote him in could just look for another 'savior of the moment,' on the other they become completely apathetic/disillusioned, . . .


Yep -- it's already happening ... "Obsessed Backers ... Empty Lives"

41 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:23:30am

re: #40 Fearless Fred

Watched that when it got posted a few threads back. Made me LOL despite its meanings.

42 irish rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:24:52am

My brother is on staff at the Museum, and he told me that this is really first class exhibit. I encourage all lizards within travelling distance to pay them a visit.

43 Elcid  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:26:45am
WOW - Hey Charles - is my clock broken or is it really
not even 8:00AM your time?!

re: #20 realwest

WOW - Hey Charles - is my clock broken or is it really
not even 8:00AM your time?!

WOW - Hey Charles - is my clock broken or is it really
not even 8:00AM your time?!

Zis es what made me laugh, my good man.

#34 Dustyvet

Starting with Hanoi John Kerry, and discovering what rock he slithered out from under?


Dustyvet, seems like the place went to hell in a handbasket, damn near after Plymouth Rock.

44 Elcid  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:28:11am

Ummm, realwest...I stutter...LOL.

45 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:30:38am

How are you doing Real? A beautiful day in ATL, glad to be alive and a little hungry!

46 FrogMarch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:31:43am
47 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:32:23am

re: #14 reine.de.tout

OK, that is really, really cool

I agree with you 100%.

And I hope I'm not dinged down for the next thing I'll say, but if I am so be it.

For those of us who are people of faith - how can anyone who believes in God look at that exhibit, and not be amazed at the sheer complexity of the origin and evolution of life that He provided?

How can those people deny that this amazingly brilliant and complex process exists in the first place, and then go on to basically say that God could not have created this process?

No down-dinging is appropriate. From any point of view, the Universe has the property of space, time, matter, energy - and the property of life as an intrinsic part of the nature of the Universe. One more property of the Universe, maybe the most interesting: The property of mind or of thought.

48 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:36:23am
49 laZardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:37:23am

re: #47 legalpad

re: #14 reine.de.tout

Not downdinging you, but I look at it and think something of the opposite...how would it not be possible for five billion years of molecular/cellular/organism development to result in something as complex as a human mind that could conceive of a God in the first place?

50 Mr Secul  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:37:51am

I was impressed by the roll-over ribosome image that showed just how little protein was in the ribosome.

I knew that it was a ribozyme from text books but I thought that the chief evidence for its action as a ribozyme was from the comparative distances between protein parts and RNA parts from the reaction center.

But the diagram makes it clear that (almost) the whole thing is essentially RNA.

There will be more information in the follow up links but I think that the main site would benefit from having more information on the site itself. It should explain more about the role of RNA in modern cells. It should mention mRNA and transfer RNAs, how tRNAs implement the genetic code. And how RNAs are involved in control of gene expression, so people are more aware of how important RNAs are in the most basic cellular processes.

51 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:39:14am

re: #14 reine.de.tout

For those of us who are people of faith - how can anyone who believes in God look at that exhibit, and not be amazed at the sheer complexity of the origin and evolution of life that He provided?

How can those people deny that this amazingly brilliant and complex process exists in the first place, and then go on to basically say that God could not have created this process?

It's kind of silly, actually, to say God could create this universe as complex as it is but not allow this complexity to arise via evolution. The more I learn about science and evolution, the more I'm amazed by Him.

52 opnion  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:39:54am

Good morning Lizards, what up?
For those planning for the Dawning of the Age of Obama, I have news.
The Chicago Tribune is reporting that Michelle's Secret Service code name is "Renaissance"
Get it? The Lady Obama will lead us from the Dark Ages into the enlightened world of the "One."

53 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:41:27am

By the way, last night the photographer who took those pictures of the Belgian cafe with the SS sign contacted me, and confirmed that it IS Filip DeWinter in that photo, standing with his back to the camera. He said he had more photos; I wrote back and asked if I could publish them.

54 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:42:39am

re: #52 opnion

Good morning Lizards, what up?
For those planning for the Dawning of the Age of Obama, I have news.
The Chicago Tribune is reporting that Michelle's Secret Service code name is "Renaissance"
Get it? The Lady Obama will lead us from the Dark Ages into the enlightened world of the "One."

Michelle Obama is no lady.
She's a femme fatale.

Sill smoking, Barry?

55 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:42:45am

Here's the email:

I have taken the picture of Filip Dewinter in front of the café the
Beast on 11/7/08. I have some more pics but this one was sharp.
Dewinter also entered the café, so did I. It was filled with old
SS-soldiers and neo-nazi's. One woman said to an old ss'er she was
missing the beautiful times of Word War II. Also Sandy Neels Vlaams
Belang was there. I found pictures of here cleaning nazitombes in
Austria and germany. Greetings and keep up the good work

Guido Joris
Brussels

56 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:43:00am

re: #49 laZardo

re: #14 reine.de.tout

Not downdinging you, but I look at it and think something of the opposite...how would it not be possible for five billion years of molecular/cellular/organism development to result in something as complex as a human mind that could conceive of a God in the first place?

That's the point. It isn't possible. These things are inevitable properties of the Universe.

57 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:43:34am
58 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:43:55am

re: #1 Joan

Kids learn to love science by exhibits like this. The Field Museum had an awesome (I'm told) human anatomy exhibit that my daughter went to TWICE.
Long live Reason, long live Empirical Thought, long live truth.

* * *
If what you say were really true, Washington DC's kids--within walking distance of FREE world class Smithsonian Museums--would be the world's best scientists.

59 opnion  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:44:30am

re: #54 Irish Rose

Michelle Obama is no lady.
She's a femme fatale.

Sill smoking, Barry?


Marlboros. I used to like them, but all over.

60 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:45:08am

re: #52 opnion

Good morning Lizards, what up?
For those planning for the Dawning of the Age of Obama, I have news.
The Chicago Tribune is reporting that Michelle's Secret Service code name is "Renaissance"
Get it? The Lady Obama will lead us from the Dark Ages into the enlightened world of the "One."


Beats hell out of Code-name "Loflyer" mates! It is my fervent desire never to be on SS radar much less ID'ed. Let hope "Renaissance" leads us to real hope and change! For a start she can out-law lobbiests!

61 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:45:11am

re: #53 Charles

By the way, last night the photographer who took those pictures of the Belgian cafe with the SS sign contacted me, and confirmed that it IS Filip DeWinter in that photo, standing with his back to the camera. He said he had more photos; I wrote back and asked if I could publish them.

Charles, you're up early this morning, insomnia?

I said it on the other thread but I'll say it again here: I continue to admire and appreciate your determined and thorough exposure of these vil bastards and their agenda.

I admit though, that I'm concerned for your safety at times... please be careful.

62 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:46:13am

And so we hail from geyser mud and water that was spewn into the atmosphere. That explains my love of volcanic geyser mud baths!
Charles, thank you for sharing this site!
Wonderful animation for teaching purposes!

63 Tigger2005  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:46:14am

re: #55 Charles

Here's the email:

Someone was just talking about Russia's proposal of an EU-Russia security pact in the previous thread.

Russia and Germany were allies before WW2 and carved up Poland between them. The Gestapo and the Stasi cooperated in rounding up each others' political enemies.

Anti-Semitism is, of course, a common thread for the EU and Russia.

We are deep in the shit.

64 The Other Les  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:46:23am

Oh... Here's something I just dug up from some old files:

The effectiveness of totalitarian gun control as described by the commander of the 106th Guards Airborne Division of the Soviet Army. One of the units sent to suppress an anti-Armenian pogrom in Azerbaijan. As told to Carey Schofield, author of "The Russian Elite: Inside SPETSNAZ And The Airborne Forces."

"We landed by night, and some of our aircraft came under attack as we did so. One carrying personnel from Tula landed with twenty-two holes in the fuselage. The people thronging around the airfield were armed with sub-machine guns, knives and clubs. I went over to the crowd and said, 'Look! The Army is not a cat to be swung around in the air. Clear the road!' The KPP (Control and Command Post) of the airfield was blocked with KRAZ and KAMAZ trucks loaded with boulders. People started shouting that we wouldn't get through. While I was talking to the crowds my sappers were cutting the wire fence about 200 meters to the left and right of the KPP. I gave the crowds five minutes to think things over. They began jeering and laughing. Within five minutes two companies from my Ryazan regiment had crossed through the holes in the wire. The whole crowd was ordered to lie face down. We kept them there all night, to let them think things over. When we told them to clear off, the next morning, nobody wanted to admit that he had come armed. They all just left their weapons behind. So I said, 'okay, let's just say we found them'."

If gun control doesn't keep firearms out of the hands of criminals (genocidal
criminals at that) in Soviet Russia, it is not going to do so in Soviet America.

65 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:46:27am

Another site that's gone completely off the rails: Israel Insider.

66 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:46:33am

re: #56 legalpad

A universe whose breadth we have yet begun to explore. It would be more reasonable to assume the "1000 monkeys on a typewriter" scenario...that for all the infinite mixes of molecules and compounds mixing under all these different conditions through the expanse of the universe we live in, eventually, one combination might be all it will take to develop "life."

And that's just the first stage...

67 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:46:38am

Good morning lizards--have you all already discussed the admission by the WashPost's ombudsman that the WashPost coverage was BIASED?

NEWSFLASH: The WashPost Coverage was BIASED!--Washpost ombudsman, Sunday's Washpost.

68 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:46:47am

re: #55 Charles

Here's the email:

You are a good man Guido!

69 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:46:49am

re: #55 Charles

Here's the email:

re: #55 Charles

Here's the email:

Wow.

70 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:47:24am

re: #60 LoFlyer

Beats hell out of Code-name "Loflyer" mates! It is my fervent desire never to be on SS radar much less ID'ed. Let hope "Renaissance" leads us to real hope and change! For a start she can out-law lobbiests!

* * *
Will she give up her $300,000 salary from a NONPROFIT?

71 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:47:37am

Charles, why do you hate Christians?

///

72 Dave_Da_Kid  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:47:47am

I take my hatchling to the Museum of Science a couple times a year. He loves the hands on nature of the exhibits and experiments. They had a fantastic baseball exhibit there over the summer. A lot of items borrowed from Cooperstown and just so much history. It was amazing. We all loved it.

73 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:48:22am

re: #71 Occasional Reader

Charles, why do you hate Christians?

///

I'm trying to figure why he hates nazis.

74 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:48:51am

re: #52 opnion

Good morning Lizards, what up?
For those planning for the Dawning of the Age of Obama, I have news.
The Chicago Tribune is reporting that Michelle's Secret Service code name is "Renaissance"
Get it? The Lady Obama will lead us from the Dark Ages into the enlightened world of the "One."

I've never quite understood the point of the USSS having "code names" for their wards... which are publicly known.

75 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:48:52am

re: #66 lazardo

It would be more reasonable to assume the "1000 monkeys on a typewriter" scenario

More reasonable than what?

76 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:49:00am

ribozymes are way cool

Charles, good for you keeping the heat on the VB folks.

77 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:49:18am

re: #55 Charles

In regards to re: #61 Irish Rose, I must say that I also express concern about the good Mr. Joris' safety as well.

78 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:49:20am

re: #73 Sharmuta

I'm trying to figure why he hates nazis.

Indiana Jones summed it up succinctly.

79 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:49:48am
80 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:50:04am

re: #71 Occasional Reader

Charles, why do you hate Christians?

///

* * *
Hey Occasional, was that you screaming and reveling all night Tuesday in front of the White House & all over Metro DC, Virginia and Maryland, keeping working stiffs like me from sleep?

81 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:50:25am

re: #65 Charles

Another site that's gone completely off the rails: Israel Insider.

A comment from there: X's own wife only produced daughters. Reckon that pin-head flunked Sex-Ed 101.

82 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:50:34am

re: #75 legalpad

Than the possibility of a deity creating the universe and just 'letting' things happen. Even with a metaphorical analysis of Genesis the Deity would have certainly had a hand in it...

83 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:50:42am

re: #49 laZardo

re: #14 reine.de.tout

Not downdinging you, but I look at it and think something of the opposite...how would it not be possible for five billion years of molecular/cellular/organism development to result in something as complex as a human mind that could conceive of a God in the first place?

That is just as true, I think, as what I said. It does work both ways . . .

84 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:50:57am

re: #79 ploome hineni

#54 Irish Rose

she looks very masculine to me

at almost 6 feet tall, and that face

LOL.

85 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:50:59am

re: #71 Occasional Reader

Blame his RNA!

86 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:51:35am

re: #51 Sharmuta

It's kind of silly, actually, to say God could create this universe as complex as it is but not allow this complexity to arise via evolution. The more I learn about science and evolution, the more I'm amazed by Him.

Ditto.

87 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:51:38am

re: #75 legalpad

More reasonable than what?

More reasonable than "all this complexity can ONLY be explained as... the work of some sort of supernatural being of INFINITE complexity, whose nature is permanently beyond our understanding [and yet somehow we "know" that fact about Him/Her/It]".

88 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:51:45am
I have taken the picture of Filip Dewinter in front of the café the
Beast on 11/7/08. I have some more pics but this one was sharp.
Dewinter also entered the café, so did I. It was filled with old
SS-soldiers and neo-nazi's. One woman said to an old ss'er she was
missing the beautiful times of Word War II. Also Sandy Neels Vlaams
Belang was there. I found pictures of here cleaning nazitombes in
Austria and germany. Greetings and keep up the good work

Guido Joris
Brussels

Bless you, Guido... whoever you are. You're putting your own personal safety on the line to help expose these people for what they are... please be careful out there!


And shame on you, Robert Spencer.
SHAME!

89 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:53:02am

re: #80 alegrias

* * *
Hey Occasional, was that you screaming and reveling all night Tuesday in front of the White House & all over Metro DC, Virginia and Maryland, keeping working stiffs like me from sleep?

No, I spend the evening in prayer, you know me.

But it certainly was a "big night out" in the area... I suspect a lot of it was Obamabots celebrating the fact that they won't have to fill their gas tanks or pay their mortgages any more.

90 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:53:12am
91 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:53:15am

re: #70 alegrias

* * *
Will she give up her $300,000 salary from a NONPROFIT?

Haar mate, I guess it depends on the definition of non-profit? Is it non-profitable to us and profitable to her? Doesn't matter because she and her husband could rob the federal reserve bank in broad daylight and full camera survey and everyone would deny the event occurred, just like the last election
/really sux mates!

92 Throbert McGee  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:53:34am

OT Russian Lit geekery:

Yesterday was my birthday, and my parents gave me (by request) a DVD of a 1973 Soviet comedy called Ivan Vasil'yevich Menyaet Professiu ("Ivan Vasilevich Switches Careers.").

An appropriate English title would be Ivan the Terrible Goes Back to the Future, since it's a goofy farce about a grumpy Soviet apartment superintendent named Ivan Vasilevich who accidentally changes places with a 16th-century Ivan Vasilevich -- who happens to look just like him, and who's better known to the world as Ivan the Terrible. In other words, the Patty Duke show with a time machine.

Lowbrow physical comedy and a few peppy musical numbers (including one enduring pop-song classic) ensue. Not of any great significance from a filmmaking standpoint, but it has a pretty distinguished literary pedigree: it's based on a play by Mikhail Bulgakov [!], whose anti-Soviet satire Master and Margarita is easily in the Top 10 All-Time Greats of Russian novels, and possibly the single best Russian book of the 20th century. (And also a high point for world literature overall.)

(More Russian geekery: the blonde chick performing "January Blizzards" in the YouTube clip is the daughter of Alla Pugachova -- the Streisand of the CCCP, whom we see at the very start of the clip.)

93 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:54:35am

re: #90 ploome hineni

no tatas

boob thread already?

94 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:54:51am

re: #55 Charles

Well, wonders will never cease. Leopards never change their spots. Zebras never change their stripes, and fascists don't change their ideological underpinnings. These are dangerous people who have hoped to pull the wool over people's eyes, but when they think that folks aren't watching, they let slip their intentions and associations.

95 zuckerlilly  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:54:53am

Charles,

why didn’t you post this and this photo in your VB Event at Neo-Nazi Pub entry?

btw: the man in the dark suit speaking with the young lady (in the foreground, first left) is Filip de Winter.

96 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:56:15am

re: #90 ploome hineni

no tatas

plenty of caboose.

97 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:56:24am

re: #92 Throbert McGee

I must admit that as a video game geek, my knowledge of Russian pop music is limited to this famous folk song.

/ [=

98 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:56:40am

re: #89 Occasional Reader

No, I spend the evening in prayer, you know me.

But it certainly was a "big night out" in the area... I suspect a lot of it was Obamabots celebrating the fact that they won't have to fill their gas tanks or pay their mortgages any more.

* * * *
Many Obamabots spent the rest of the week figuring out how to get inaugural tickets & hitting up friends, family, anyone, to blow their wad on inaugural activities. Hotels all booked in DC. Are you going to rent out your home for $12,500 for the week to some Obamabot?
An opportunity for cashing in on those in the underground economy.

99 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:56:45am

re: #96 nyc redneck

plenty of caboose.

Caboose enough for 5 of me.

100 unclassifiable  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:57:16am

re: #81 MandyManners

I think facts flew out the window along time ago. That is just the product of a segment of the internet called "Random Crap Generators" or RCGs if you will.

101 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:57:21am

re: #95 zuckerlilly

Charles,

why didn’t you post this and this photo in your VB Event at Neo-Nazi Pub entry?

btw: the man in the dark suit speaking with the young lady (in the foreground, first left) is Filip de Winter.

That's just a meaningless symbol on the door.

/

102 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:57:34am

re: #14 reine.de.tout

How can those people deny that this amazingly brilliant and complex process exists in the first place, and then go on to basically say that God could not have created this process?

I recall a Torah commentary that basically said God brought forth creatures from the earth, and created man in His image, but there are no details provided that would conflict with science.

I also read a comment here from somebody who said math was the universal language God used in His creations.

103 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:57:47am

re: #99 reine.de.tout

Caboose enough for 5 of me.

lol, me too.
i need me some.
caboose.

104 zuckerlilly  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:58:13am

re: #101 Sharmuta


I know...

/

105 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:58:17am

re: #95 zuckerlilly

Charles,

why didn’t you post this and this photo in your VB Event at Neo-Nazi Pub entry?

btw: the man in the dark suit speaking with the young lady (in the foreground, first left) is Filip de Winter.

Oops! There's that completely innocuous, totally unconnected-to-anything symbol again!

106 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:58:45am

re: #93 reine.de.tout

re: #90 ploome hineni

no tatas

boob thread already?

No, silly, that makes it a car thread.

107 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:59:02am

re: #88 Irish Rose

I believe Spencer is in flat out raw DENIAL. It is so important for him to contribute, that he DOES NOT WISH to accept that THIS kind of contribution is
just as wrong as Jihad. Shaming him will do nothing. Name calling is just another form of shaming. If you love a person who is in denial, you just have to keep exposing them to the truth. Spencer's intellect will eventually accept that something is wrong in his logic and beliefs. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! Dump the water and keep refilling the tub with the truth.
The baby will eventually come out clean, I promise!

108 Shug  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:00:04am

Charles,
You are a brave man. . Just Be careful. Keep your head on a swivel, as they say.
I fear the neonazis more than the Islamists and neither group likes you.

You know that you are on the right side when both of these groups don't like you.

109 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:00:19am

re: #97 lazardo

I must admit that as a video game geek, my knowledge of Russian pop music is limited to this famous folk song.

/ [=

My only knowledge of Soviet pop music is the rousing "Throw the Jew Down the Well".

(see Borat)

110 The Hoopster  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:01:06am

Good Morning Lizards!
How is everyone this fine day?

111 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:01:38am

re: #107 notutopia

I believe Spencer is in flat out raw DENIAL. It is so important for him to contribute, that he DOES NOT WISH to accept that THIS kind of contribution is
just as wrong as Jihad. Shaming him will do nothing. Name calling is just another form of shaming. If you love a person who is in denial, you just have to keep exposing them to the truth. Spencer's intellect will eventually accept that something is wrong in his logic and beliefs. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water! Dump the water and keep refilling the tub with the truth.
The baby will eventually come out clean, I promise!

i hope you are right.

112 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:01:38am

re: #110 HoosierHoops

Good Morning Lizards!
How is everyone this fine day?

{HH}
Good morning!

113 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:02:31am

re: #92 Throbert McGee

An appropriate English title would be Ivan the Terrible Goes Back to the Future

What is the Russian term for "flux capacitor"?˜

114 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:02:45am

re: #107 notutopia

I think you're wrong. He's not interested in looking into these parties. He's not in denial as to who these people are. He's interested in continuing to look as though he doesn't know, when the fact of the matter is he does know. He doesn't care if he's joined in "fighting jihad" by racist neo-fascists.

115 opnion  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:02:52am

THe big issue on the Sunday news shows is, what kind of dog will the Obamas get? They sound rediculous, beside I think that Barry is a cat guy.

116 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:02:58am

Leningrad Cowboys Goldfinger for a taste of Soviet (Finnish) pop!

117 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:03:00am

re: #109 Occasional Reader

Very niii~ce!

/introduced me to Roma music as well. Artist's page here.

118 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:03:11am

re: #110 HoosierHoops

Good Morning Lizards!
How is everyone this fine day?

Glorious fall day here in Our Nation's Capital. Excellent day for cycling.

119 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:03:31am
120 doppelganglander  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:03:51am

re: #7 LoFlyer

Haar! OT and trolling for Atlanta lizards for our meet at 5 PM, click on 'me avatar for the secret pirate ID, and 'me nic is blue for those needing the location!

I just logged in to post this very thing, with less pirate talk. See you this afternoon!

121 The Hoopster  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:04:08am

re: #112 reine.de.tout

{HH}
Good morning!

mmm.coffee!
How are you doing today reine?

122 zuckerlilly  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:04:15am

re: #105 Charles


I know, it's only misused by neo-nazis (this is NOT the symbol of the linked door!)

123 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:05:02am

re: #110 HoosierHoops

]=

/about to go to sleep though...waking up like %P%= is an improvement.

124 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:05:12am

re: #121 HoosierHoops

mmm.coffee!
How are you doing today reine?

On my second pot of coffee.

125 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:06:01am

On the topic of math, music, and the divine:

I culled fascinating observation from Freeman Hunts' blog sometime back, and thought it was rather impressive.

I remember writing in a journal as a teenager and fixed atheist, "God doesn't exist, but if he did, he would be made of math." I remember thinking that thought with a great sense of clarity. Perhaps God was especially close to me in that moment, pressing in to work on turning my heart. I don't know. But I do think that that thought had some truth in it. Not that God is made of math, but that God made math, and that math is the foundation of all God's physical creation.

At the heart of every science, at the heart of every description of the universe, at the heart of every observed law of nature, there is math. It is everything. To make a very crude metaphor: it is the operating system on which the whole network of physical reality is based.

And so then it makes sense to me, the association between music and the divine. Music is math, and math is the closest we can come to describing the mind of God in reference to creation without bringing in explicit talk of the spiritual realm.

126 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:06:41am

re: #115 opnion

THe big issue on the Sunday news shows is, what kind of dog will the Obamas get? They sound rediculous, beside I think that Barry is a cat guy.

And he doesn't need a dog; for utter, mindless devotion, he has the press.

127 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:06:59am

re: #120 doppelganglander

I just logged in to post this very thing, with less pirate talk. See you this afternoon!

Looking forward to it 'me lassy, Haar and much less pirate talk and more real talk between mates! Mate.

128 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:07:37am

i don't know if i have the strength and patience to overcome my anger at my friends and family who put the zero in office.
this is really bothering me. i don't know how to resolve being friends w/ people like this. i did pick up the phone yesterday, for the first time since the election and talked to my best friend in the city (she is an orthodox jew, mostly lapsed but should have known better. her mom voted mccain).
guess what, the election didn't even come up. that is how bad it is.

129 The Hoopster  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:07:38am

re: #124 reine.de.tout

On my second pot of coffee.

LOL
That is so me this morning...

130 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:07:46am

Related - in that it's science - does anyone have an informed opinion about these new mini nuclear reactors? This is from a Toshiba ad: "The 200 kilowatt Toshiba designed reactor is engineered to be fail-safe and totally automatic and will not overheat. Unlike traditional nuclear reactors the new micro reactor uses no control rods to initiate the reaction. The new revolutionary technology uses reservoirs of liquid lithium-6, an isotope that is effective at absorbing neutrons. The Lithium-6 reservoirs are connected to a vertical tube that fits into the reactor core. The whole whole process is self sustaining and can last for up to 40 years, producing electricity for only 5 cents per kilowatt hour, about half the cost of grid energy.

Toshiba expects to install the first reactor in Japan in 2008 and to begin marketing the new system in Europe and America in 2009"[Link: www.nextenergynews.com...]

131 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:08:09am

re: #126 Occasional Reader

And he doesn't need a dog; for utter, mindless devotion, he has the press.


* * *
Lap dogs all.

132 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:08:28am

re: #125 Irish Rose

I've been getting straight-A's (here we curiously use the GPA equivalent, 4.0) at my college math subjects. That makes me a crazed evangelistic fundie!

/LOL

133 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:08:42am

re: #119 Sharmuta

Robert is not interested in being honest

I think you were trying to link to a comment -- you need to first click on it and open the single comment window, then copy the URL from that window.

The reason: that window is now opened via Javascript. I may switch back to the old method; I did this because it reduces the size of comments pages, but it may not be worth the decrease in usability.

134 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:08:48am

Sorry- that didn't seem to work- here is what robert spencer told our own Walter L Newton.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Decide for yourself if he's just somehow not aware of what he's doing.

135 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:09:12am

re: #133 Charles

Thanks.

136 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:09:38am

re: #126 Occasional Reader

And he doesn't need a dog; for utter, mindless devotion, he has the press.

* * *
Did you see a headline in today's Post about "Purging Rebublicans"--Stalin would be proud of his democrat imitators.

137 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:10:34am

re: #132 lazardo

I've been getting straight-A's (here we curiously use the GPA equivalent, 4.0) at my college math subjects. That makes me a crazed evangelistic fundie!

/LOL

* * *
Keep up the good work Lazardo. You've got to keep Mindanao from your jihadis in Phillipines.

138 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:10:34am

re: #114 Sharmuta

Then, we're both right in this Sharmuta. Spencer needs to be shown constant validation that his "alliances" are not what is best for US! He still has a right to chose his own friends however. Spencer has become truly obsessed with Jihad. These are not just words. It is a diseased psychological condition.
When you become OBSESSED with your beliefs you do not see or live in reality any longer. He is grabbing at the worst of the worst available allies in an attempt to justify his beliefs.

139 opnion  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:11:11am

re: #126 Occasional Reader

And he doesn't need a dog; for utter, mindless devotion, he has the press.

Lap dogs!

140 rightside  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:11:19am

re: #95 zuckerlilly

Where did you get those photos of the door? They've been modified by someone.

141 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:11:58am

re: #138 notutopia

You don't get it- he doesn't care.

142 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:12:10am

/IR passes a strong cup of coffee to CJ

Donut?

143 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:12:16am

What is starting to piss me off about Spencer's obfuscatory defense is that he is managing to undermine the very cause he says he is fighting.

Exactly how am I supposed to talk to serious people about how Islamists still pose a threat to our society by subtler means whenone of the leading figures in it can't make the moral distinction between "anti-jihad" and "white- supremacist".

If this election and the days afterward have demonstrated anything, it has demonstrated how powerful the counter charge of "racism" is these days.

Why give that counter charge weight by excusing (in any way) the European Neo Fascist movement?

144 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:13:04am

re: #141 Sharmuta

You don't get it- he doesn't care.

Perhaps a link to the anti LGF thread over at Jihadwatch would be helpful at this juncture.

145 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:13:32am

[Link: babelfish.yahoo.com...]

Here's DeWinter hanging out with the Dutch Blok

146 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:13:53am

re: #142 Irish Rose

/IR passes a strong cup of coffee to CJ

Donut?

Heh. Brewing up some double-strength Kona blend right now.

147 zuckerlilly  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:14:04am

re: #101 Sharmuta

oldie but goldie

148 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:14:10am

re: #144 Irish Rose

They can go find it for themselves.

149 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:14:11am

re: #136 alegrias

* * *
Did you see a headline in today's Post about "Purging Rebublicans"--Stalin would be proud of his democrat imitators.

No, because I've purged myself of the Washington Post, quite some time ago!

150 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:14:11am

re: #128 nyc redneck

i don't know if i have the strength and patience to overcome my anger at my friends and family who put the zero in office.
this is really bothering me. i don't know how to resolve being friends w/ people like this. i did pick up the phone yesterday, for the first time since the election and talked to my best friend in the city (she is an orthodox jew, mostly lapsed but should have known better. her mom voted mccain).
guess what, the election didn't even come up. that is how bad it is.

You know, when the lines of communication have been cut off, you can have no influence.

Don't let it be you cutting off the lines of communication. Keep in touch with those folks.

When Obama takes office, and does things that you believe are not good for the country, then you can slowly and subtly start having some influence so that perhaps in the next election, we will have different results.

151 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:14:31am

re: #130 Daisy

Related - in that it's science - does anyone have an informed opinion about these new mini nuclear reactors? This is from a Toshiba ad: "The 200 kilowatt Toshiba designed reactor is engineered to be fail-safe and totally automatic and will not overheat. Unlike traditional nuclear reactors the new micro reactor uses no control rods to initiate the reaction. The new revolutionary technology uses reservoirs of liquid lithium-6, an isotope that is effective at absorbing neutrons. The Lithium-6 reservoirs are connected to a vertical tube that fits into the reactor core. The whole whole process is self sustaining and can last for up to 40 years, producing electricity for only 5 cents per kilowatt hour, about half the cost of grid energy.

Toshiba expects to install the first reactor in Japan in 2008 and to begin marketing the new system in Europe and America in 2009"[Link: www.nextenergynews.com...]

Sounds cool except nothing is said about waste or the cost of decommissioning. A lot of new reactor designs have come out in the last decade or so, I am still waiting for a breakthrough in the heat to electrical conversion. We are still using steam boilers and turbo-generators to convert heat to energy. We need something better...

152 zuckerlilly  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:14:46am

re: #140 rightside

Your text to link...

153 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:14:51am

re: #146 Charles

Heh. Brewing up some double-strength Kona blend right now.


Never tried Kona, this is your bean of preference?
I'm an Italian Roast kinda girl myself.

154 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:15:05am

re: #134 Sharmuta

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied."

Nevertheless, it is inferred. His thinking on this is bad and his behavior, unscrupulous.

155 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:15:23am

re: #137 alegrias

My dad actually commented that "We'll lose to the Abu Sayyaf with Obama as President" though...especially when we have US troops assisting ours down there.

157 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:15:51am

re: #143 karmic_inquisitor

What is starting to piss me off about Spencer's obfuscatory defense is that he is managing to undermine the very cause he says he is fighting.

Exactly how am I supposed to talk to serious people about how Islamists still pose a threat to our society by subtler means whenone of the leading figures in it can't make the moral distinction between "anti-jihad" and "white- supremacist".

If this election and the days afterward have demonstrated anything, it has demonstrated how powerful the counter charge of "racism" is these days.

Why give that counter charge weight by excusing (in any way) the European Neo Fascist movement?

Very well said. And for what it's worth, I made that exact point to Robert Spencer many times, when we were emailing about this issue last year and I still thought he was being honest with me about not wanting to be associated with people like this.

158 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:15:58am

re: #153 Irish Rose

Never tried Kona, this is your bean of preference?
I'm an Italian Roast kinda girl myself.

Kona is the only domestic coffee.

159 The Hoopster  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:16:06am

re: #142 Irish Rose

/IR passes a strong cup of coffee to CJ

Donut?

Good morning Irish...don't be giving Charles any donuts. He'll get fat.
I'm sure there is a fruit cup around here somewhere...
We got to keep our boy healthy!
:)
/charles is going..dang.. i wanted a donut!

160 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:16:12am

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic.

From the Ombudsman at WaPo, no less.

161 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:16:58am

re: #146 Charles

Heh. Brewing up some double-strength Kona blend right now.

Bayview Farms has the best Kona coffee, IMO.

Peaberry. MMM.

162 rightside  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:17:29am

re: #152 zuckerlilly

I'll have to get someone who speaks dutch to translate that for me, it's obviously been photohopped. Thanks!

163 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:17:44am

re: #159 HoosierHoops

Good morning Irish...don't be giving Charles any donuts. He'll get fat.
I'm sure there is a fruit cup around here somewhere...
We got to keep our boy healthy!
:)
/charles is going..dang.. i wanted a donut!

Here ya go. Donuts

164 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:17:53am
165 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:17:59am

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

166 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:18:39am

Gotta head to bed. Hope to wake up tomorrow and find a reason to look forward to things. Cheers.

167 goddessoftheclassroom  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:18:39am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

How wonderful! I wish you both every happiness.

168 Tigger2005  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:18:39am

re: #128 nyc redneck

i don't know if i have the strength and patience to overcome my anger at my friends and family who put the zero in office.
this is really bothering me. i don't know how to resolve being friends w/ people like this. i did pick up the phone yesterday, for the first time since the election and talked to my best friend in the city (she is an orthodox jew, mostly lapsed but should have known better. her mom voted mccain).
guess what, the election didn't even come up. that is how bad it is.

May be time to find new friends. Family you do have to find some way to live with, I guess.

169 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:18:53am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

I am very happy for you.

170 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:19:23am

re: #167 goddessoftheclassroom

God Bless

171 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:19:24am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

My deepest congrats Rose! Haar!

172 Shug  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:19:36am

re: #165 Irish Rose

congrats!

173 Ojoe  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:20:01am

re: #165 Irish Rose

All the best to you both

174 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:20:13am
175 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:20:13am

Interestingly, the Kona Coffee people are also in the national security business. Little-known fact.

Specifically, they manufacture a device for protecting top-secret conversations at the CIA and NSA. It's called the Kona Silence.

176 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:20:20am

re: #165 Irish Rose

Congrats, my friend!

177 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:20:24am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

Congratulations!

178 The Hoopster  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:20:26am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

OMG..That is fantastic news!
Wishing you happiness and joy.

179 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:20:27am

My sweetie is also an anti-idiotarian.
Match made in heaven ;).

180 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:20:35am

re: #82 lazardo

Than the possibility of a deity creating the universe and just 'letting' things happen. Even with a metaphorical analysis of Genesis the Deity would have certainly had a hand in it...

I have not commented on the role of a deity. I do not have conventional religious beliefs. How we imagine God and/or the Universe can be in terms of metaphors, anthropomorphic if preferred.

181 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:20:47am

re: #175 Occasional Reader

LOL!

182 reine.de.tout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:21:14am

re: #175 Occasional Reader

Interestingly, the Kona Coffee people are also in the national security business. Little-known fact.

Specifically, they manufacture a device for protecting top-secret conversations at the CIA and NSA. It's called the Kona Silence.

Oh, too funny!

183 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:21:42am

re: #164 Charles

Google translated page.

The facade of the cafe Lion of Flanders in Antwerp went on half time three years paint turns.

Computer translation... still in its infancy. Let's hope.

184 lawhawk  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:21:53am

re: #165 Irish Rose

Mazel Tov!

185 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:21:58am

The RNA section is pretty cool.

186 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:22:13am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

A Wild Irish Mazel Tov to you!

187 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:22:26am

re: #87 Occasional Reader

More reasonable than "all this complexity can ONLY be explained as... the work of some sort of supernatural being of INFINITE complexity, whose nature is permanently beyond our understanding [and yet somehow we "know" that fact about Him/Her/It]".

See my #180

188 itellu3times  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:22:32am

RNA world.

Maybe.

My brother did some work on this twenty years ago, and I dabbled a bit myself. I suspect if there was any RNA world, it was very very brief. RNA isn't stable enough, that's what the DNA is for. I think as soon as DNA showed up, the RNA world was over, and it's only the DNA world that became ubiquitous.

189 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:22:52am

re: #165 Irish Rose

MAZEL TOV!

190 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:23:20am

Thanks, everyone ;).

Sorry to sidetrack the thread with an OT, but sometimes you just gotta.

191 zuckerlilly  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:23:37am

re: #164 Charles

thanks, Charles, my fault.

192 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:23:43am

re: #141 Sharmuta

Sharmuta I agree he does not care. HIS Denying his alliances is not in question here. He has chosen this snake den of Neo Nazis to further his fight against Jihad.
HE is the one in a state of DENIAL. He is OBSESSED with JIHAD. And his discernment is now majorly askew. Persons who are obsessed make terrible judgements which are contra productive to their logic and intellect.
He needs to be continually bombarded with TRUTH. But, don't expect him to react or change his behavior by Shaming him. Shame and namecalling will only
cause reactions of defiance and hate. Both are just fuel for his emotional fire to continue his OBSESSION.

193 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:23:59am

re: #180 legalpad

Oh. Reading and connecting the replies up, I apologize for the mix-up.

194 opnion  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:24:08am

re: #128 nyc redneck

i don't know if i have the strength and patience to overcome my anger at my friends and family who put the zero in office.
this is really bothering me. i don't know how to resolve being friends w/ people like this. i did pick up the phone yesterday, for the first time since the election and talked to my best friend in the city (she is an orthodox jew, mostly lapsed but should have known better. her mom voted mccain).
guess what, the election didn't even come up. that is how bad it is.

I have friends & family that voted for Obama. It really has not disturbed any relationships except one guy at work, but we were not pals anyway.
When Obama starts acting in office the way that he signaled that he will, I just don'ty want to hear "I didn't know that he was like that."

195 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:24:22am

re: #188 itellu3times

I think as soon as DNA showed up, the RNA world was over

WOO-HOO! DNA! WE KICK EVERYONE'S ASS!

196 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:25:00am

re: #149 Occasional Reader

No, because I've purged myself of the Washington Post, quite some time ago!


* * *
Good for you. I only read it on weekends when I do eldercare. My elderly vet Dad is finally going to cancel his WashPost subscription too. That hateful rag has taken years off his life.

Thankfully my brother sends him The Weekly Standard to keep him sane & positive.

(Did you hear about DC black residents lining up for hours to buy $2 and scalped WashPost editions with Obama's victory on the front? They had to rip off people who don't read their rag, to make a buck!)

197 Mich-again  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:25:23am

David Duke's EURO conference was yesterday near Memphis. Here is a Memphis station news story complete with an interview of John de Nugent.

198 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:25:27am

re: #188 itellu3times

By the way, that ribosome animation looks like something that happens in my fridge from time to time.

199 lazardo  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:25:58am

Kay...actually heading to bed now. Cheers.

200 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:26:03am

I'm not going to pretend that I can read Robert Spencers' mind or understand his motives, Charles is probably in a better position to do that at this juncture.

I'll say only that I am deepy, deeply disappointed in the man.

201 The Hoopster  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:26:08am

re: #179 Irish Rose

My sweetie is also an anti-idiotarian.
Match made in heaven ;).

And he loves despite you playing accordian...That's what? a one in a million match?
LOL
Just teasing you...

202 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:26:37am

re: #165 Irish Rose

Blessings Rose, to both of you!

203 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:26:48am

re: #192 notutopia

I don't expect his position to change at all in any way whether he's bombarded with the truth or not. It's quite simple. The truth about these people has been known for over a year now. If he's not repelled by nazis, then there's something more going on.

204 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:26:55am

re: #196 alegrias

(Did you hear about DC black residents lining up for hours

Uh, not just the black residents. They had the "souvenir" WaPo on sale at chicer-than-thou Kramerbooks on Friday.

205 Steffan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:27:41am

OT, something that might possibly help cheer y'all up:

What kind of evil are you?

Let's face it: we're all a little evil. But we're not the same evil. Some are more emotional. Some are more creative. And some are just, well, more evil.

So, what do you get with fuzzy categories that don't make much sense in the first place? A great subject for a stupid internet quiz! Yes! Come one and all, find out just what kind of evil is in you.

206 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:27:54am

re: #175 Occasional Reader

Oh Max, that never works.

207 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:27:55am

re: #201 HoosierHoops

And he loves despite you playing accordian...That's what? a one in a million match?< blockquote>

He sits for hours over a pint, just listening to me play.
So yeah, I'd say so :).

208 rightymouse  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:28:01am

DNA test.

lol!

209 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:28:10am

re: #160 karmic_inquisitor

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic.

From the Ombudsman at WaPo, no less.

* * *
Being ombudsman at the WaPo is an empty job, for show only.

210 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:28:29am

re: #194 opnion

I have friends & family that voted for Obama. It really has not disturbed any relationships except one guy at work, but we were not pals anyway.
When Obama starts acting in office the way that he signaled that he will, I just don'ty want to hear "I didn't know that he was like that."

I'm just going to tell them that's what they voted for and either change the subject or walk away.

211 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:28:35am

re: #150 reine.de.tout

You know, when the lines of communication have been cut off, you can have no influence.

Don't let it be you cutting off the lines of communication. Keep in touch with those folks.

When Obama takes office, and does things that you believe are not good for the country, then you can slowly and subtly start having some influence so that perhaps in the next election, we will have different results.

of course, that is sound and good advice. patience is a virtue.
i seem to be low on it at the moment.

212 Steffan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:28:50am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

Congratulations. :)

Set a date yet?

213 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:28:56am

re: #207 Irish Rose

...tag challenged, more coffee.

214 Spider Mensch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:29:07am

re: #201 HoosierHoops

And he loves despite you playing accordian...That's what? a one in a million match?
LOL
Just teasing you...

"mama's gotta s queeze box she lays on her chest, and when Daddy gets home, he don't get no rest...cause she's playing all night...and the musics allright..."

/The Who

215 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:29:16am

re: #128 nyc redneck

i don't know if i have the strength and patience to overcome my anger at my friends and family who put the zero in office.
this is really bothering me. i don't know how to resolve being friends w/ people like this. i did pick up the phone yesterday, for the first time since the election and talked to my best friend in the city (she is an orthodox jew, mostly lapsed but should have known better. her mom voted mccain).
guess what, the election didn't even come up. that is how bad it is.

It's not easy, is it? Since, at this stage of the game anyway, what I have difficulty with in terms of Moonbat friends and family, is their (mainly) indirectly conveyed assumption that the only possible reason that I didn't join their worship service of BO is because I'm a racist. I've been heading them off at the pass with this, "While I'm proud to live in a country that saw fit to elect a man of color, I only wish that our first black President could have possessed the ideals of those other 2 Republicans I so admire, Lincoln and ML King". They usually enter into a mini catatonic state upon hearing that ML King was a Republican - which has been useful in that I can then go on to dealing w/more immediate issues like, "could you please pass the salt" while building a strong reality based foundation for all future discussions.

I don't love too many Moonbats at this point, but the ones I do keep are worth keeping for one reason or another - blood ties, etc.

216 Pullus Iulius  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:29:18am

re: #204 Occasional Reader

Uh, not just the black residents. They had the "souvenir" WaPo on sale at chicer-than-thou Kramerbooks on Friday.

This makes me feel that much better that mine's going out in tomorrow's recycling. Maybe it'll be made into a disposable diaper.

217 big steve  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:29:33am

so this is where all those lipids that circle my waist came from!...Old Faithful Cam

218 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:30:01am

re: #160 karmic_inquisitor

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic.

From the Ombudsman at WaPo, no less.

* * *
Plus she couldn't have pointed out the WaPo's leftism and Obama cheering WHILE it was going on, could she have? It just wasn't obvious enough to her inside the belly of the beast...

219 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:30:03am

re: #165 Irish Rose

Mazel tov!

220 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:30:29am

re: #190 Irish Rose

Thanks, everyone ;).

Sorry to sidetrack the thread with an OT, but sometimes you just gotta.

You give us one happy item to discuss this afternoon at the ATL meet. We are happy for you and your mate!

221 arrow75  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:31:11am

re: #126 Occasional Reader

Maybe Chris Matthews' leg starts tingling when you scratch him behind the ear.

222 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:31:14am

Here's some interesting commentary on the space-time continuum and its relationship to certain religious thought. The Physics of Immortality.
Combined with the ideas in my earlier link, "The Age of Spiritual Machines"

223 big steve  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:31:18am

Has anyone noticed that the YouTube video of the principal of the school where the teacher bullied the students on who they were voting for is no longer there. Anyone got an active location for it now?

224 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:32:05am

re: #212 Steffan

Congratulations. :)

Set a date yet?

Not yet.

We're both single parents of sons who are high school juniors this year, and we live in different school districts. So we're going to wait until our boys graduate high school before we marry... they come first right now.

I'll probably have a date set by early summer, though.

225 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:32:40am

re: #197 Mich-again

At the end of the segment they mention there were representatives from the Netherlands there. I wonder if VB showed up.

226 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:33:31am

re: #204 Occasional Reader

Uh, not just the black residents. They had the "souvenir" WaPo on sale at chicer-than-thou Kramerbooks on Friday.


* * *

Did not know that. (My sources were black employees in DC talking about not being able to buy WaPos at the source.)

227 Mich-again  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:33:37am

re: #200 Irish Rose

Here is something he replied to me in the first thread on the subject.

Please show me where Fjordman has promoted the mass deportation of Muslim citizens. I have not seen him say that.

In any case, whether he says it or not, I do not support the mass deportation of Muslim citizens. You all seem to be assuming that someone who supports one thing someone else says supports everything he says. That is a false assumption.

228 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:33:38am

re: #151 LoFlyer

Real good point about the waste. Thanks for the help.

229 big steve  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:33:46am

re: #222 legalpad

Here's some interesting commentary on the space-time continuum and its relationship to certain religious thought. The Physics of Immortality.
Combined with the ideas in my earlier link, "The Age of Spiritual Machines"

That site has such crappy graphics...weird colors, things flashing at me...that I literally could not read it and I mean literally my eyes wouldn't focus.

230 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:34:15am

re: #214 Spider Mensch

"mama's gotta s queeze box she lays on her chest, and when Daddy gets home, he don't get no rest...cause she's playing all night...and the musics allright..."

/The Who

Damn straight.

231 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:34:40am

re: #223 big steve

Has anyone noticed that the YouTube video of the principal of the school where the teacher bullied the students on who they were voting for is no longer there. Anyone got an active location for it now?

I have it here.

232 abolitionist  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:35:19am

re: #165 Irish Rose

Congrats!

233 Steffan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:35:37am

re: #160 karmic_inquisitor

Pathetic. Utterly pathetic.

From the Ombudsman at WaPo, no less.

Her gift for understatement is amazing. This must be why she's the ombudsman.

MSM campaign coverage should have been reported to the FEC as in-kind contributions to the Obama campaign.

234 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:36:06am

re: #216 Pullus Iulius

This makes me feel that much better that mine's going out in tomorrow's recycling. Maybe it'll be made into a disposable diaper.

* * *
Show-off! You could be making a fast buck off folks who "don't have money."

235 Joan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:36:13am

re: #29 Dark_Falcon

If you the Field Museum in Chicago, it was actually the Museum of Science and Industry that hosted that exhibit ("Body Wars" I believe it was called).

You are correct. I was too squeamish to go, but my daughter was very analytical and intrigued.

236 zuckerlilly  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:36:30am

re: #164 Charles

Charles,

so do I get this right: they removed the ss-symbol for "s" and replaced it with the neo-nazi-cross on the door?

237 big steve  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:36:36am

re: #231 MandyManners

I have it here.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

thanks but that I have seen, I was looking for the principal's apology. That is no longer on YouTube.

238 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:36:40am

re: #215 Daisy

It's not easy, is it? Since, at this stage of the game anyway, what I have difficulty with in terms of Moonbat friends and family, is their (mainly) indirectly conveyed assumption that the only possible reason that I didn't join their worship service of BO is because I'm a racist. I've been heading them off at the pass with this, "While I'm proud to live in a country that saw fit to elect a man of color, I only wish that our first black President could have possessed the ideals of those other 2 Republicans I so admire, Lincoln and ML King". They usually enter into a mini catatonic state upon hearing that ML King was a Republican - which has been useful in that I can then go on to dealing w/more immediate issues like, "could you please pass the salt" while building a strong reality based foundation for all future discussions.

i'm going to borrow that, in dealing w/ people in general. thank you.
I don't love too many Moonbats at this point, but the ones I do keep are worth keeping for one reason or another - blood ties, etc.

239 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:36:40am

re: #203 Sharmuta

It is a Mental dysfunction. It's treatable. But, first he has to agree to treatment and I don't see that happening for a long time.
Shaming him and name calling is not healthy behavior to get anyone to hear what you are trying to say to them. Spencer has to hit bottom first himself. He's got to do it BY himself. This is his journey. He chose it.

240 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:37:06am

re: #229 big steve

That site has such crappy graphics...weird colors, things flashing at me...that I literally could not read it and I mean literally my eyes wouldn't focus.

Sorry, I've never looked at that web site. I thought it would provide links to the book. Wrong choice in a Google search. Try This one.

241 Mich-again  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:37:57am

re: #225 Killgore Trout

At the end of the segment they mention there were representatives from the Netherlands there. I wonder if VB showed up.

They mentioned Sweden and the Netherlands, but in the story last week they said some of the foreigners they were expecting had to stay on the down-low.

242 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:38:01am

re: #239 notutopia

It is a Mental dysfunction. It's treatable.

A bit harsh, methinks.

243 Joan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:38:18am

re: #36 LoFlyer

I am back from an aborted breakfest mates! The waffle house was packed and I refuse to wait! Haar!

you'd have been better off with a McDonald's breakfast burrito. Or two. heh.

244 LoFlyer  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:39:18am

BBL guys!

245 Shug  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:39:57am

Everybody needs to search youtube for Howard Stern interviewing Harlem residents last week.

whether or not you like Stern, it's funny ( and sad )

246 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:40:05am

re: #241 Mich-again

I just read from David Duke's site that the BNP showed. No mention on VB. It;s too early for me to read Stormfront. Maybe later.

247 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:40:48am

re: #223 big steve

Has anyone noticed that the YouTube video of the principal of the school where the teacher bullied the students on who they were voting for is no longer there. Anyone got an active location for it now?

I don't. But I do have a reflexive thought involving a broom, dirt and a carpet whenever a bureaucrat says he's 'investigating' a matter. You may have luck checking out Hot Air. MM had some good coverage/links - including the humiliated girl's parent's sticking up for the teacher. Could be the parental disgustingness resolved any/all "investigation" .

248 zuckerlilly  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:41:23am

re: #162 rightside

you are right. It is photoshoped.

249 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:41:39am

re: #238 nyc redneck

daisy,
my one line response came up in the middle of your post.
anyway,i said, i'm going to borrow your plan for dealing w/ moonbats.

250 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:41:46am

re: #215 Daisy

For expressing those Carefully-Phrased Feelings About Obama Being Elected, I don't think any of us can even hope to surpass Iowahawk:


Election Analysis: America Can Take Pride In This Historic, Inspirational Disaster

Although I have not always been the most outspoken advocate of President-Elect Barack Obama, today I would like to congratulate him and add my voice to the millions of fellow citizens who are celebrating his historic and frightening election victory. I don't care whether you are a conservative or a liberal -- when you saw this inspiring young African-American rise to our nation's highest office I hope you felt the same sense of patriotic pride that I experienced, no matter how hard you were hyperventilating with deep existential dread.

Yes, I know there are probably other African-Americans much better qualified and prepared for the presidency. Much, much better qualified. Hundreds, easily, if not thousands, and without any troubling ties to radical lunatics and Chicago mobsters. Gary Coleman comes to mind...

251 Steffan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:43:07am

re: #143 karmic_inquisitor

What is starting to piss me off about Spencer's obfuscatory defense is that he is managing to undermine the very cause he says he is fighting.

Exactly how am I supposed to talk to serious people about how Islamists still pose a threat to our society by subtler means whenone of the leading figures in it can't make the moral distinction between "anti-jihad" and "white- supremacist".

If this election and the days afterward have demonstrated anything, it has demonstrated how powerful the counter charge of "racism" is these days.

Why give that counter charge weight by excusing (in any way) the European Neo Fascist movement?

When you sup with the devil, you need a long spoon.

252 nyc redneck  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:43:24am

i'm going to go dig some potatoes now.
and practice being a peasant.

253 opnion  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:43:40am

re: #210 Sharmuta

I'm just going to tell them that's what they voted for and either change the subject or walk away.

That's how I feel about it. It was all out there, don't tell me that you didn't know.

254 Joan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:43:59am

Sense of proportion: History Channel right now, exploring the Toba eruption supervolcano, 75,000 years ago: 10 years of winter, species extinction, famine, pestilence, near-extinction of human race. So, I guess the big picture might be, that a Democrat President isn't really a 10 on the 1 - 10 scale of disasters, after all.

255 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:44:01am

re: #236 zuckerlilly

Charles,

so do I get this right: they removed the ss-symbol for "s" and replaced it with the neo-nazi-cross on the door?

I think it's the other way around -- they removed the Odin's Cross, and painted the SS symbol above the door. The picture of the SS sign is from July - the Odin's Cross picture seems to be earlier.

256 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:44:20am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

Irish Rose, I remember how that felt. And, there IS no other topic on a day like today. Best wishes. Ring? Date? :)

257 Joan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:45:24am

Stanley Ambrose, anthropologist--gotta google him.

258 Throbert McGee  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:46:22am

re: #97 lazardo

I must admit that as a video game geek, my knowledge of Russian pop music is limited to this famous folk song.

Heh -- that's a very appropriate song for Tetris, since one of its traditional titles, Korobushka, means "a little box." An alternative title is Korobeiniki, meaning "the peddlers" or "the traveling salesmen" -- in other words, guys who came from the city to the countryside selling lightweight wares that would fit in a not-too-large box (korobka). As you can tell from the lyrics of Korobeiniki, traveling salesmen had the same reputation in old Russia as they do in American dirty jokes involving the farmer's daughter!

BTW, those traditional black-lacquer boxes with Russian fairytale scenes painted on them are known by the related word korobotchka -- another diminutive implying "tiny box."

259 rightymouse  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:46:48am

re: #227 Mich-again

Here is something he replied to me in the first thread on the subject.

Please show me where Fjordman has promoted the mass deportation of Muslim citizens. I have not seen him say that.
In any case, whether he says it or not, I do not support the mass deportation of Muslim citizens. You all seem to be assuming that someone who supports one thing someone else says supports everything he says. That is a false assumption.

It suggests that Fjordman has won over any objections that Spencer may have had and now Spencer is trying to justify his acquiescence.

260 Steffan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:48:17am

re: #222 legalpad

Here's some interesting commentary on the space-time continuum and its relationship to certain religious thought. The Physics of Immortality.
Combined with the ideas in my earlier link, "The Age of Spiritual Machines"

They're far too cute with the web design -- 'way too many active .gif images.

It's distracting and painful to read.

261 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:48:58am

I think karmic summed it pretty well. If one cannot distinguish between the ideology of islam and that of the nazis, then what exactly is the opposition to islam?

262 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:48:59am

re: #233 Steffan

"Her gift for understatement is amazing. This must be why she's the ombudsman."

Her new title? Obambudsman.

263 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:50:34am

re: #252 nyc redneck

i'm going to go dig some potatoes now.
and practice being a peasant.

Might I suggest sowing some arugula seeds? Could be useful.

264 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:50:35am

re: #233 Steffan

Her gift for understatement is amazing. This must be why she's the ombudsman.

MSM campaign coverage should have been reported to the FEC as in-kind contributions to the Obama campaign.

Perhaps someone could do that now, using this and other analyses that have appeared since last Wednesday as proof.

It doesn't matter when such violations occur, or when they are investigated. It would have been better had it happened during the campaign, but if there's any merit to this argument the FEC will be required to investigate. Depending on what they find, such complaints might accomplish some good in the future.

One note: you can't indict "the media" any more than you can indict "the weather." If you're going to file a complaint, it will carry a great deal more weight if it is a complaint against a specific entity, for example The WaPo or The LATimes, and carries with it specific examples of malfeasance such as this article, or other specific references.

265 rightside  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:51:14am

re: #236 zuckerlilly

That's what it says.

266 mahatma coat  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:51:20am

oh ,another darwinism /creationism thread...(yawns) well gotta be going now

267 Throbert McGee  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:51:51am

re: #258 Throbert McGee

As you can tell from the lyrics of Korobeiniki, traveling salesmen had the same reputation in old Russia as they do in American dirty jokes involving the farmer's daughter!

Er, but as far as I know, "box" (korobka) isn't a sexual double entendre* in Russian, even though that would be quite fitting for a folk song about traveling salesmen.

* Cf. "How is Woody Allen like Kodak film?"

268 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:51:53am

re: #262 Daisy

"Her gift for understatement is amazing. This must be why she's the ombudsman."

Her new title? Obambudsman.

I thought Obamabudsman was his connection.

269 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:53:07am

re: #268 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Awww. :)

270 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:53:52am
271 Conservative in Liberal Hands  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:54:15am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

Congratulations and best wishes for a long, happy married life together!

First Loppyd and now you!

272 Steffan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:55:09am

re: #270 buzzsawmonkey

"The long spoon" was a euphemism for the bayonet in the late 19th/early 20th century.

The quote itself goes back to Chaucer and Shakespeare.

273 AmericanMe  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:56:23am

OT: Something has been bothering me a bit. We know Obama's Grandmother passed very recently. Was there a service, funeral, memorial, anything? Nothing in the papers, news or TV. Dunno, just weird.

274 Throbert McGee  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:56:50am

re: #195 Occasional Reader

WOO-HOO! DNA! WE KICK EVERYONE'S ASS!

DNA: It makes even Suzanne Vega cool.

275 Mr Secul  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:57:28am

re: #266 mahatma coat

oh ,another darwinism /creationism thread...(yawns) well gotta be going now

Good, don't let the door slap your ass on the way out.

276 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:57:50am
277 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:57:51am

According to someone who emailed earlier (not a friend - it was a hate mail), Lawrence Auster is also attacking me again.

278 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:58:26am

re: #266 mahatma coat

oh ,another darwinism /creationism thread...(yawns) well gotta be going now

What the hell are you talking about?

279 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:58:52am

re: #256 Daisy

Irish Rose, I remember how that felt. And, there IS no other topic on a day like today. Best wishes. Ring? Date? :)

Date not yet determined.
He wants me to pick out a ring so we're going to start shopping for one next month.

280 The Other Les  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:59:29am

Dug up another old file from 1998:

From NEWSWEEK, April 6, 1998, page 27 (HARNESSING THE HYSTERIA by Jonathan Alter.) paragraph 5:

Because the tragic stories linger longer now, they can be leveraged more easily for social change. Sure, the logic that connects this massacre to a larger social agenda is thin. But logic can be overrated. And so my irritation at media "lessons" subsides into a question. Which is worse: to take a random tragedy and make it a symbol that galvanizes the country? Or to let the moment pass without any effort to channel the fear and emotion into something constructive? I'd argue that the latter is worse.

And the last sentence:

But as the shots fired in Jonesboro reverberate around the world, let's harness the hysteria to the larger work before us.

In short, they'll just lie to their readers.

281 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:00:02am

re: #277 Charles

It seems he think you're a liberal.

282 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:00:31am

re: #277 Charles

According to someone who emailed earlier (not a friend - it was a hate mail), Lawrence Auster is also attacking me again.

Well, still.

Good morning, Charles. That's a great link.

283 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:01:21am

re: #266 mahatma coat

oh ,another darwinism /creationism thread...(yawns) well gotta be going now

How many accounts have you registered here?

284 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:01:46am

re: #279 Irish Rose

Well, congratulations! I didn't see your earlier announcement, so I hope my best wishes aren't too belated.

285 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:02:16am

re: #284 Dianna

Well, congratulations! I didn't see your earlier announcement, so I hope my best wishes aren't too belated.

Of course not, thank you.

286 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:04:19am

We Blew It
A look back in remorse on the conservative opportunity that was squandered.
by P.J. O'Rourke

In our preaching and our practice we neglected to convey the organic and universal nature of freedom. Thus we ensured our loss before we even began our winning streak. Barry Goldwater was an admirable and principled man. He took an admirably principled stand on states' rights. But he was dead wrong. Separate isn't equal. Ask a kid whose parents are divorced.

Since then modern conservatism has been plagued by the wrong friends and the wrong foes. The "Southern Strategy" was bequeathed to the Republican party by Richard Nixon--not a bad friend of conservatism but no friend at all. The Southern Strategy wasn't needed. Southern whites were on--begging the pardon of the Scopes trial jury--an evolutionary course toward becoming Republican.

287 Pete-billy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:04:20am

re: #208 rightymouse

DNA test.

lol!

LOLOLOLOL

DNA test = Drugs N' Alcohol test ...LOL omg ! ROFL

288 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:04:54am

re: #239 notutopia

It is a Mental dysfunction. It's treatable. But, first he has to agree to treatment and I don't see that happening for a long time.
Shaming him and name calling is not healthy behavior to get anyone to hear what you are trying to say to them. Spencer has to hit bottom first himself. He's got to do it BY himself. This is his journey. He chose it.

So- you think shaming him will have no affect on his thinking, but telling him he's got a mental disorder will get him to realize he needs professional help.

Somehow I think you'll be added to the No Christmas Card list.

289 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:04:54am

re: #273 AmericanMe

Posted last night - there will be a Memorial service in December, which makes sense, all things considered.

290 Tigger2005  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:05:26am

You know, I was just thinking. What is a Barack Obama Presidential Library going to look like?

Doesn't the thought of it just blow your mind?

291 shanec99  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:05:30am

re: #57 taxfreekiller

Darwin award of a huge mis-step of evolution gone wrong.

62,400,000 Obama voters.


No they are an evolutionary dead end... some species or portions of species go extinct... they become incapable of competing with more aggressive or adaptable members that they compete with for resources and they die off.

Liberals are going to die off, they depend on hand outs and expect government to do everything for them... government is rapidly getting to the point of limitations due to payments that it must make... pensions, medicare, Social Security, financing the national debt. Government will get to a point where it cant tax itself into meeting expenditures, and those who depend on it are going to suffer tremendously. I pray for them.

292 Athos  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:05:50am

Good morning all...

Great link to a very interesting site / museum. My daughter and I were in Boston on vacation in July and spent a couple of hours in the musuem while waiting to take a Duck tour - which leaves from in front museum. We then went back after the tour until it closed and changed our plans the next day to spend another half day there. She was 10 at the time and very interested in it all - including the exhibition done in conjunciton with the Baseball Hall of Fame. I highly recommend this as a museum to visit when in Boston.

293 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:06:24am

re: #276 buzzsawmonkey

Yes, I am well aware of the quote.

"I am familiar with the works of Pablo Neruda."

-Bart Simpson

294 zenren  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:06:33am

Mornin' Lizards. Some of my liberal-leaning, Obama-voting aquaintences are starting to have buyer's remorse already. I thought it would take at least 6 months but no, 4 days! Apparently, they are uncomfortable with forcing the nations young people into mandatory volunteerism for the state. They seem a little nervous right now.

295 Athos  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:06:37am

re: #165 Irish Rose

Congratulations! Happiness and good fortune to you both!

296 AmericanMe  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:07:45am

re: #289 Daisy

Posted last night - there will be a Memorial service in December, which makes sense, all things considered.

Understandable. Thanks for that.

297 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:08:38am

re: #294 zenren

I was wondering about that, as I counted the number of Obama t-shirts and what have you I saw on the street since Tuesday.

298 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:08:44am

I was looking for a Cosmos in which Carl Sagan said that the Universe or some event relating to it's origin occurred, "Strictly by accident." The problem I had with this is that there can't really be "accidents" if you don't have Universe yet. An accident needs a context of things that are not accidents. Here is one interesting Sagan piece. He speaks of the Universe "always existing". OK. But the interesting thing about this is that everything that is possible has already happened an infinite number of times: Including the development of extreme intelligence. See the possibilities?

299 logboy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:08:50am

re: #292 Athos

Good morning all...

Great link to a very interesting site / museum. My daughter and I were in Boston on vacation in July and spent a couple of hours in the musuem while waiting to take a Duck tour - which leaves from in front museum. We then went back after the tour until it closed and changed our plans the next day to spend another half day there. She was 10 at the time and very interested in it all - including the exhibition done in conjunciton with the Baseball Hall of Fame. I highly recommend this as a museum to visit when in Boston.


Agreed. When I was stuck in DC for a few months visiting all the museums was a welcome reprieve.

300 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:08:58am

re: #287 Pete-billy

LOLOLOLOL

DNA test = Drugs N' Alcohol test ...LOL omg ! ROFL


Internet chat slang for beginners

301 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:09:08am

re: #55 Charles

Here's the email:

It's like the St Maartensfonds meetings just moved.

302 MandyManners  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:09:39am

re: #266 mahatma coat

Don't be an ass.

303 logboy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:09:49am

re: #294 zenren

Mornin' Lizards. Some of my liberal-leaning, Obama-voting aquaintences are starting to have buyer's remorse already. I thought it would take at least 6 months but no, 4 days! Apparently, they are uncomfortable with forcing the nations young people into mandatory volunteerism for the state. They seem a little nervous right now.


Its the Obama hangover kicking in.

304 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:10:23am

re: #299 logboy

Agreed. When I was stuck in DC for a few months visiting all the museums was a welcome reprieve.

I got through about a quarter of the natural history section of the Smithsonian when I was in DC for the Freedom Walk back in 2005. I want to spend several days, some time.

305 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:11:21am

re: #288 Sharmuta

In the real world for Spencer, appealing to his intellect is much more useful.
We don't do Xmas here :)

306 logboy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:12:18am

re: #300 Irish Rose

Internet chat slang for beginners


Oooohhh...

"WTGP? Want To Go Private? (move to a private chat room) "

How seductive.

307 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:13:30am

re: #305 notutopia

In the real world for Spencer, appealing to his intellect is much more useful.
We don't do Xmas here :)

You're not appealing to his intellect when you suggest that the man has a mental disorder, dude.

Suggest you don't go down that road.

308 Occasional Reader  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:13:42am

re: #304 Dianna

I got through about a quarter of the natural history section of the Smithsonian when I was in DC for the Freedom Walk back in 2005. I want to spend several days, some time.

Be sure to check out the Hope Diamond, since Obama and McCain are planning on stealing it.


/South Park

309 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:13:44am

re: #260 Steffan

They're far too cute with the web design -- 'way too many active .gif images.

It's distracting and painful to read.

OK - Here's my response to "Big Steve" who had the same problem.

Sorry, I've never looked at that web site. I thought it would provide links to the book. Wrong choice in a Google search. Try this one.

310 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:14:00am

'mahatma coat' also recently registered a sockpuppet account under 'cdajoe', and pretended to be posting here for the first time with it - despite the fact that he was posting with both accounts during the same time period.

Both accounts are now blocked.

311 Athos  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:14:03am

re: #261 Sharmuta

As I said yesterday, moral and intellectual cowardice. He is so fixiated on fighting jihad that he will weaken his own cause by accepting and joining with fascists to fight islamofascists. It's the same contemptable arrangements the hard anti-American left takes when they work to enable islamofascism to be successful against the US / West in order to weaken the current system - betting that once the current system fails, they will be able to defeat the islamofascists.

The fallacy of the position is that we do not need these eurofascists to win nor do we have to provide them with any level of respectability. Our entire moral argument for opposing fascism is lost.

312 Pete-billy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:14:58am

re: #300 Irish Rose

Internet chat slang for beginners

thank you , wow all this chat slang and acronyms in one site ! cool !

313 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:14:58am

Remember Spencers attack on LGF reader Medaura's expose of the links between The American Council for Kosovo with whom he is involved and
the Serbian National Council of Kosovo?

[Link: kejda.net...]

The only problem with this is that her basic assertion, that the American Council for Kosovo is a front group for Ivanovic’s group, is false, and she provides no evidence to establish it. ACK spokesman James Jatras says this:

With respect to the Serbian National Council of Kosovo and Metohija as identified in the American Council for Kosovo’s disclaimer, and the suggested relationship with Dr. Milan Ivanovic: in Kosovo today there is more than one organization operating under the name “Serbian National Council,” or some variant of that name. These groups, some of them quite small, have differing political perspectives — though all categorically reject separation of the province from Serbia — and accordingly may align themselves with different Serbian political parties. As already noted, the American Council for Kosovo reflects the views of the Kosovo Serbian community as voiced by Bishop Artemije. I am unaware of Dr. Ivanovic’s affiliation with any organization connected with the Bishop. If the implication of the comment is that the American Council for Kosovo is somehow controlled or directed by Dr. Ivanovic, that absolutely is not the case. However, I have met Dr. Ivanovic in the course of my visits to Kosovo and believe the aspersions cast against him are unwarranted. There is nothing “radical” or “anti-American,” much less “supremacist,” about him as far as I am aware, unless one regards opposition to Washington’s illegal, pro-jihad anti-Serbian policy as being anti-American.

I quote here part of Medaura's response from her most recent blog posting on the subject:

I have supposedly asserted without proof that A equals A: that the Serbian National Council for Kosovo and Metohija whose leader is the outrageous violent-protest organizer, alleged hand-grenade thrower, Radical Party supporter and flaming Karadzic devotee Ivan Milanovic, is the same Serbian National Council for Kosovo and Metohija for which Robert Spencer second-handedly works. As if linking organizations of the same exact name with the same identity begs any proof…

When doing my background research on Jatras, I was so struck by this man’s sheer maliciousness, callousness, and pathological lying pattern that I assumed he was some sort of evil mastermind concocting genial campaigns of nauseating Belgrade propaganda. But in Robert’s comment I am reminded again of the banality of evil. The claim that somehow there are many small organizations in Kosovo by the same exact name which act independently of one-another and bear no responsibility of each-others’ members’ and leaders’ acts or statements is a laughably desperate (and just plain laughable) attempt to evade the scrutiny that naturally comes with Ivan Milanovic’s disreputable background.

The claim doesn’t stand even at face value: Who has heard of multiple unaffiliated organizations by the very same name operating within the boundaries of a 10,908 km2 region? Wouldn’t people confuse them all the time among each other? Wouldn’t the self-respectable ones of these organizations, if there be any, adopt a different name in order to distance themselves from the anarchic ones which are staging riots against the police? How do they keep track of one-another? Do they have separate serial numbers by any chance?

314 FrogMarch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:15:03am

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Thanks Killgore. I lllove JP O'Rourke. Great stuff.

Liberalism had been running wild in the nation since the Great Depression. At the end of the Carter administration we had it cornered in one of its dreadful low-income housing projects or smelly public parks or some such place, and we held the Taser gun in our hand, pointed it at the beast's swollen gut, and didn't pull the trigger. Liberalism wasn't zapped and rolled away on a gurney and confined somewhere until it expired from natural causes such as natural law or natural rights.

315 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:15:20am

re: #305 notutopia

Again- how much of an intellectual can one be if one cannot distinguish between the ideologies of islam and neo-fascism?

316 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:16:15am

re: #313 Jimmah

There is a photo there accompanying this post, from the Bishops own website, showing the Bishop sitting at the table with Dr. Ivanovic, as part of that organisation.

Leadership of the Serb National Council at press conference in Belgrade Media Center, May 30, 2003 (from left to right: Dr. Marko Jaksic, Dr. Rada Trajkovic, Bishop Artemije, Dr. Milan Ivanovic)

So, more lies - and bad ones at that - from Spencer and crew to cover up connections with yet another group of european fascists.

317 The Hoopster  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:17:39am

re: #310 Charles

'mahatma coat' also recently registered a sockpuppet account under 'cdajoe', and pretended to be posting here for the first time with it - despite the fact that he was posting with both accounts during the same time period.

Both accounts are now blocked.

What?
crazy stuff...2 more entries to the hall of shame

318 rightymouse  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:17:59am

re: #287 Pete-billy

LOLOLOLOL

DNA test = Drugs N' Alcohol test ...LOL omg ! ROFL

lol! Had tears coming out of my eyes on that one.

319 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:18:25am

re: #222 legalpad

Suedo. Totally Suedo.

Tipler's book is not science, but a lot of speculation based on false logic and assumptions to try to "scientifically" prove that god must exist in the old chestnut of "we will eventually become god". The recent discovery that the expansion of the universe is accelerating totally discredits the bunkum.

320 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:18:55am

re: #286 Killgore Trout

Thanks for the link, don't agree w/all, but substantially do.

PJ at his best: "We may think of this as a post 9/11 problem, but it's been with us all along. What was Reagan thinking, landing Marines in Lebanon to prop up the government of a country that didn't have one? In 1984, I visited the site where the Marines were murdered. It was a beachfront bivouac overlooked on three sides by hills full of hostile Shiite militia. You'd urge your daughter to date Rosie O'Donnell before you'd put troops ashore in such a place."

321 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:19:46am

The comment numbers are now back to the old-style links, to make it easier to link directly to a comment.

322 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:20:46am

re: #314 FrogMarch


Although I must say we're doing good work on our final task--attaching the garden hose to our car's exhaust pipe and running it in through a vent window. Barack and Michelle will be by in a moment with some subsidized ethanol to top up our gas tank. And then we can turn the key.


Heh.

323 Irish Rose  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:21:05am

I'm off to have breakfast with my fiance, BFN lizards ;).

/ have another donut, Charles... you can bike it off later.

324 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:21:12am

re: #294 zenren

Mornin' Lizards. Some of my liberal-leaning, Obama-voting aquaintences are starting to have buyer's remorse already. I thought it would take at least 6 months but no, 4 days! Apparently, they are uncomfortable with forcing the nations young people into mandatory volunteerism for the state. They seem a little nervous right now.

I guess research skills are no longer taught.

I consider myself both a a consumer and shareholder in government. I like to educate myself on the costs & benefits of the government service I am purchasing, and the return on my investment.

325 The Hoopster  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:22:12am

re: #315 Sharmuta

Again- how much of an intellectual can one be if one cannot distinguish between the ideologies of islam and neo-fascism?

Blinded by the light sharm...
It's like finding out someone you really respect that teaches High school science believes that they were abducted by a UFO.
It will always be in the back of your mind..This dude is wack..
/too much coffee? LOL

326 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:22:22am

re: #320 Daisy

He does take a shot at the Dept. of Education but there's very little that I can disagree with.

327 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:23:13am

re: #324 Who Watches the Watchmen?

You make me feel slightly better. Not much, but slightly.

I don't think I've ever been as dismayed by an election as I am by this one.

328 logboy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:23:20am
President-elect's transition chief John Podesta says the incoming administration is weighing Bush's executive orders on oil and gas drilling and stem cell research, among others.

"There's a lot that the president can do using his executive authority without waiting for congressional action, and I think we'll see the president do that to try to restore the -- a sense that the country is working on behalf of the common good, that we're going to try to restore wages, give people the right kind of ways that they can build on their own lives, and when they work hard that they'll be rewarded for it," he continued.


Full story.

329 J.S.  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:23:23am

re: #65 Charles

omg...What's wrong with people? ? Argh...

330 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:23:53am
331 FrogMarch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:23:58am

re: #286 Killgore Trout

We Blew It
A look back in remorse on the conservative opportunity that was squandered.
by P.J. O'Rourke

Really good point here:

The real message of the conservative pro-life position is that we're in favor of living. We consider people--with a few obvious exceptions--to be assets. Liberals consider people to be nuisances. People are always needing more government resources to feed, house, and clothe them and to pick up the trash around their FEMA trailers and to make sure their self-esteem is high enough to join community organizers lobbying for more government resources.

If the citizenry insists that abortion remain legal--and, in a passive and conflicted way, the citizenry seems to be doing so--then give the issue a rest. Meanwhile we can, with the public's blessing, refuse to spend taxpayers' money on killing, circumscribe the timing and method of taking a human life, make sure parental consent is obtained when underage girls are involved, and tar and feather teenage boys and run them out of town on a rail. The law cannot be made identical with morality. Scan the list of the Ten Commandments and see how many could be enforced even by Rudy Giuliani.

332 Tigger2005  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:25:16am

re: #320 Daisy

Thanks for the link, don't agree w/all, but substantially do.

PJ at his best: "We may think of this as a post 9/11 problem, but it's been with us all along. What was Reagan thinking, landing Marines in Lebanon to prop up the government of a country that didn't have one? In 1984, I visited the site where the Marines were murdered. It was a beachfront bivouac overlooked on three sides by hills full of hostile Shiite militia. You'd urge your daughter to date Rosie O'Donnell before you'd put troops ashore in such a place."

Reagan knew exactly how to deal with the Russians. The Islamofascists, not so much.

333 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:25:39am

re: #315 Sharmuta

He cannot Sharmuta. He cannot discern the gradients of evil at this time.
He is Obsessed with his participation in the fight against Islamic Jihad.

obsessive-compulsive disorder (OCD)
A condition characterized by recurrent, repetitive thoughts (obsessions), behaviors (compulsions), or a combination of both. A person with OCD recognizes that his or her obsessions and compulsions are unreasonable, intrusive, unnecessary, or foolish but cannot resist them.

334 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:25:59am

re: #165 Irish Rose

By the way lizards... allow me to go off topic for just a moment to announce that I am officially engaged :).

My best friend and sweetheart of nearly four years finally popped the question last night, and I accepted.

Wow, Congrats Irish!

335 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:26:36am

re: #310 Charles

'mahatma coat' also recently registered a sockpuppet account under 'cdajoe', and pretended to be posting here for the first time with it - despite the fact that he was posting with both accounts during the same time period.

Both accounts are now blocked.

They always seem to make their way into these threads (that apparently bore them so much) like zombies on the trail of brains, these creationist guys. Then the inevitable self detonation.

336 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:27:09am

re: #325 HoosierHoops

I understand that many are still in shock concerning robert. I'm not here to pat their hands and say, "it will be okay" because it's not okay. There has been enough obfuscation on this issue from him. He wants to continue deluding himself and his readers- that's his choice. This has been going on for long enough that to continue to cling to plausible denial on robert's part is to join in the delusion.

337 alien_mind  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:27:19am

re: #294 zenren

Mornin' Lizards. Some of my liberal-leaning, Obama-voting aquaintences are starting to have buyer's remorse already. I thought it would take at least 6 months but no, 4 days! Apparently, they are uncomfortable with forcing the nations young people into mandatory volunteerism for the state. They seem a little nervous right now.


thats probably why all the details of the change agenda have been scrubbed clean from the change.gov site.
all the details are gone and they left only an innocuous change statement. Apparently letting people know the agenda was found to be detrimental.

338 Killgore Trout  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:27:40am

re: #331 FrogMarch

The law cannot be made identical with morality.


Indeed.

339 Athos  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:28:04am

re: #333 notutopia

A person with OCD recognizes that his or her obsessions and compulsions are unreasonable, intrusive, unnecessary, or foolish but cannot resist them.

I believe Robert knows what he is doing and the fact that these odious eurofascist groups fight jihad trumps all - including his moral and intellectual honesty.

340 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:28:24am

re: #326 Killgore Trout

Taking responsibility for one's own (or one's parties) deficits, inconsistancies etc. is always more powerful than focusing exclusively on one's opponents deficits.

341 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:28:25am

One other note: When you see the words "for post" in google translations, it's really "Voorpost". Roughly meaning "The Outpost".

342 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:28:27am

re: #319 Thanos

Suedo. Totally Suedo.

Tipler's book is not science, but a lot of speculation based on false logic and assumptions to try to "scientifically" prove that god must exist in the old chestnut of "we will eventually become god". The recent discovery that the expansion of the universe is accelerating totally discredits the bunkum.

I agree. It's just a starting point for discussing cosmology with religious concepts. One reviewer noted:

give the book two stars, not one, however, because I find the ideas fascinating, and I did spend a considerable amount of time grappling with the physics and philosophy, which is the precise reason I picked up the book. He shouldn't have attempted to present it as a scientific theory, though, at least in my opinion.

I views religious concepts as representing what we want. Originally, in the mind of ancient man, they were attempts to understand existence. They were pre-science. But obviously if there is a super-intelligence doing things already, our thoughts and activities will have little effect on it, and since we have no data on this, it becomes irrelevant to any choices we make.

343 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:30:06am

re: #339 Athos

I believe Robert knows what he is doing and the fact that these odious eurofascist groups fight jihad trumps all - including his moral and intellectual honesty.

I agree. I don't think he's sick- I think he's fully cognizant of what he's doing.

344 Randall Gross  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:30:31am

re: #342 legalpad

I will agree that the book did generate a lot of thought along with a few wild guffaws.

345 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:30:36am

re: #340 Daisy

Taking responsibility for one's own (or one's parties) deficits, inconsistencies etc. is always more powerful than focusing exclusively on one's opponents deficits.

Whoops -- posted rather than spell checked -- wanted to add this to above - this approach is rare in the personal domain and completely absent in the political domain.

346 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:30:51am

re: #333 notutopia

Does that explain why I'm feeling desperate urge to clean my kitchen?!

347 alegrias  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:31:31am

re: #332 Tigger2005

Reagan knew exactly how to deal with the Russians. The Islamofascists, not so much.

* * *
Some military genius (not) recommended putting Marines on the beach in Lebanon. Hope he was fired after the deaths of 283 Marines.

348 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:31:53am

re: #346 Dianna

Does that explain why I'm feeling desperate urge to clean my kitchen?!

Speaking of which .. see ya all later, Lizards.

349 J.S.  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:32:25am

re: #339 Athos

I don't know if Robert "knows what he's doing" -- maybe subconsciously, he's aware -- but consciously? i dont' know -- he makes excuses (there are a number of them)...I think he's thoroughly blind (or in denial?)...

350 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:32:35am
351 SixDegrees  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:32:53am

re: #291 shanec99

No they are an evolutionary dead end... some species or portions of species go extinct... they become incapable of competing with more aggressive or adaptable members that they compete with for resources and they die off.

Liberals are going to die off, they depend on hand outs and expect government to do everything for them... government is rapidly getting to the point of limitations due to payments that it must make... pensions, medicare, Social Security, financing the national debt. Government will get to a point where it cant tax itself into meeting expenditures, and those who depend on it are going to suffer tremendously. I pray for them.

I'd stay away from Social Darwinism. It leads into dark, very bad places.

352 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:33:00am

re: #348 Daisy

You, too?

353 Spiny Norman  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:33:18am

re: #294 zenren

Mornin' Lizards. Some of my liberal-leaning, Obama-voting aquaintences are starting to have buyer's remorse already. I thought it would take at least 6 months but no, 4 days! Apparently, they are uncomfortable with forcing the nations young people into mandatory volunteerism for the state. They seem a little nervous right now.

Whoops!

354 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:33:32am
355 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:33:43am

re: #344 Thanos

I will agree that the book did generate a lot of thought along with a few wild guffaws.

Tipler is a serious Physicist, though. A friend of mine spoke with him at great length.

356 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:33:47am

re: #350 ploome hineni

I am dismantling two closets now, stuff all over the floor in piles

:)

Ack!

I've got a dinner party to clean up after. I ran the dishwasher last night, but not everything would fit, and the stemware has to be done by hand.

357 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:34:09am
358 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:34:49am
359 Joan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:35:01am

re: #286 Killgore Trout

We Blew It
A look back in remorse on the conservative opportunity that was squandered.
by P.J. O'Rourke

thanks for the link

I heard that conservative bigwigs are on a cruise, reinventing Republican Party, and we lowly minions will be informed soon of their fiat
/
*sigh* excuse my skepticism. We need leaders, we need a plan. Sometimes, though, we here in the peanut gallery are at the level of sending up smoke signals, hoping to have some impact on the "reconstruction" We need to improve our Republican culture:

1) never forget that bipartisan is not a good word, try to think of it as date rape as far as Republicans ever benefit from it
2) stop killing your own wounded: we let our disgraced become emblematic of the whole Party; Democrat disgraces vanish like Spitzer and Jefferson and some never even have to be unpersoned, to wit, Barney Frank
3) NYT, LAT, WaPo and CNN/NBC et.al. are NOT the Fourth Estate, they have forfeited that honor. They are the Ministry of Truth (this will be official when GE takes bailout money and gives to Keithy Olb.) Talk Radio, LGF, PJTV, HotAir, Drudge--these are the Fourth Estate and must be defended as such and given exclusivity and perks from Republicans
4) limited government; fiscal responsibility; the Constitution; the Bill of Rights -- these are the core of Republicanism

360 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:35:34am
361 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:35:51am

re: #358 ploome hineni

I have a problem throwing stuff out

:(

it is horrible

That whole pack-rat thing? My Male's actually worse about that than I am, but I do have a problem with it.

And, inevitably, you toss something that you find you need not a week afterwards!

362 Throbert McGee  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:35:57am

re: #277 Charles

According to someone who emailed earlier (not a friend - it was a hate mail), Lawrence Auster is also attacking me again.

I just checked Auster's site, and as far as I can tell, his most recent attack on Charles is in response to your "Should the GOP Double Down on Social Conservatism?" post -- in other words, from before the recent Vlaams Belang threads.

As far as I can tell, Auster himself has not commented at all about the latest evidence linking VB and other Belgian neofascists to anti-Semitism -- big surprise there.

Similarly, it's a huge surprise that a search for "vlaams" at Discarded Lies turns up one comment from November -- and it's a dig at Charles, NOT at Vlaams Belang. (Later in that same DL thread, a regular participant comments: "I realize that I've never properly weighed in on this whole VB controversy. My carefully considered opinion is, everybody shut the hell up already.") The next-most-recent hit for "vlaams" at DL is from September... and again, does not criticize VB, but rather takes aim at Charles for being "obsessive" about VB.

363 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:36:57am
364 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:38:13am

re: #362 Throbert McGee

Well, I won't go to that site, so I'll have to take your word for it.

365 Joan  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:39:18am

re: #337 alien_mind

thats probably why all the details of the change agenda have been scrubbed clean from the change.gov site.
all the details are gone and they left only an innocuous change statement. Apparently letting people know the agenda was found to be detrimental.

Wayback Machine or Screen Caps, anyone?

366 Sharmuta  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:39:36am

re: #349 J.S.

I don't know if Robert "knows what he's doing" -- maybe subconsciously, he's aware -- but consciously? i dont' know -- he makes excuses (there are a number of them)...I think he's thoroughly blind (or in denial?)...

He's fully aware of what he's doing. He doesn't have time (or the desire) to investigate these euro-parties, but he has plenty of time and the desire to read what's being said about him at LGF

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

367 FrogMarch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:40:43am

re: #338 Killgore Trout

Indeed.

Really - the whole thing is pretty dang good. Something for everyone - and in PJ style - laced with humor.

loved this:

And now, to glue and screw the lid on our coffin, comes this financial crisis. For almost three decades we've been trying to teach average Americans to act like "stakeholders" in their economy. They learned. They're crying and whining for government bailouts just like the billionaire stakeholders in banks and investment houses. Aid, I can assure you, will be forthcoming from President Obama.

Then average Americans will learn the wisdom of Ronald Reagan's statement: "The ten most dangerous words in the English language are, 'I'm from the federal government, and I'm here to help.' " Ask a Katrina survivor.

The left has no idea what's going on in the financial crisis. And I honor their confusion. Jim Jerk down the road from me, with all the cars up on blocks in his front yard, falls behind in his mortgage payments, and the economy of Iceland implodes. I'm missing a few pieces of this puzzle myself.

368 notutopia  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:41:10am

re: #325 HoosierHoops

There is a vast difference between denying and the state of DENIAL.
One is a conscious election and the later is an UNconscious defense to cope.

DENIAL: mechanism characterized by refusal to acknowledge painful realities, thoughts, or feelings.

He is Obsessed and in Denial.

369 Dianna  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:42:29am

re: #365 Joan

Wayback Machine or Screen Caps, anyone?

Ace's site has it. Look Here.

370 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:42:32am

re: #319 Thanos

I watched a documentary recently in which it was claimed that it is almost mathematically certain that we are living in a simulation. I think it was based on the idea that a single actual universe can support an enormous number of simulated ones, so your chances of finding yourself alive in the a real one is very slim.

371 Athos  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:51:45am

re: #349 J.S.

Sharmuta last night posted a link to Walter L Newton's post and details of his email exchange with Robert that really clarified his position to many of us.

I emailed Robert Spencer on my own, asking him if he had any intention of looking into the European nationalist political parties that seem to display a great deal of racism. Here was his reply to me... "Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied."

Just for full disclosure. I sent this email to Mr. Spencer, this was his answer and I gave Charles permission to post this if he wanted. Charles did not have anything to do with my question to Mr. Spencer. Charles did not solicit my communication with Mr. Spencer. I was not trolling for Charles nor was I "spying" for Charles.

But I thought Mr. Spencer's answer spoke volumes. This is like saying "Actually, I am fighting economic problems in Germany, and have no interest in or intention to investigate The Nazi party. Insofar as they are fighting economic problems, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied."

Mr. Spencer has evidently seen Charles posting on the last VB thread, and emailed me this message...

"Yet you say below: 'As far as the rift with Charles Johnson, that's not really my battle. I did not contact you as a "troll" or "spy" for Charles, simply as someone who has respected your work, and I felt I needed to pass on my concerns.' Why not just be honest? Why did you think it necessary to lie to me? It doesn't reflect well on you or Charles Johnson. But of course nothing much of what he does lately reflects well upon him."

For someone who is not very interested in what the European nationalist political parties are doing, Mr. Spencer certainly seems to be VERY INTERESTED in monitoring what is being discussed on LGF. Something to think about.

[bold added]

This is a very telling exchange and makes it clear to me that Robert knows exactly what he is doing and his excuses are nothing more than efforts at rationalizing his moral and intellectual cowardice to accept and provide respectability towards one form of fascism in order to fight islamofascism. He is neither blind nor in denial. This is a calculated position - including calculated efforts to try to rationally distance himself from the groups (Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied.) because he is fixated only on one target.

It is a specious argument as far as I am concerned. We need to stand against all forms of fascism...otherwise what are we?

372 Throbert McGee  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:53:12am

re: #364 Charles

Well, I won't go to that site, so I'll have to take your word for it.

Incidentally, in the wake of Obama's election, Auster has been kinda "flirting" with the idea (as he did a number of times before the election) that this will lead to some sort of not-clearly-defined "White Uprising" in the U.S. -- a recent thread was titled "The aim of liberalism is white dhimmitude."

I would characterize it as a very, very soft-sell approach to racial warfare -- and pure poison.

373 Pete-billy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:54:23am

re: #370 Jimmah

The documentary ''What we still don't know'' with Martin Rees it's one of my favorites!
I love documentaries about the Universe, our cosmos and of course about Astronomy.

What we still don't know

374 docremulac  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:55:47am

re: #15 Thanos

"re: #5 docremulac

If you get the chance stop by the Exploratorium as well"

That's my other favorite place on Earth.

375 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:56:17am

re: #370 Jimmah

I watched a documentary recently in which it was claimed that it is almost mathematically certain that we are living in a simulation. I think it was based on the idea that a single actual universe can support an enormous number of simulated ones, so your chances of finding yourself alive in the a real one is very slim.


Was it this one?

376 J.S.  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 9:59:30am

re: #366 Sharmuta

but that is consistent with "being in denial" -- you just black out the "bad bits", you absolutely refuse to see it (Robert's excuse is that "he doesn't have the time", clearly not the case, but then he projects about "lying." And who's telling lies?)...(There could also be other reasons for his choosing to associate with his "friends"...I have a couple of guesses...but they're conjectures.)

377 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:02:15am

re: #373 Pete-billy

re: #375 legalpad

I think it was something from the BBC's 'Horizon' series.

378 Throbert McGee  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:03:59am

re: #341 Thanos

One other note: When you see the words "for post" in google translations, it's really "Voorpost". Roughly meaning "The Outpost".

I assumed that Voorpost essentially means (and sounds like) "fore-post" -- i.e., one on the frontline with an enemy.

379 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:11:57am

re: #350 ploome hineni

I am dismantling two closets now, stuff all over the floor in piles

:)

Chhhange! Kitchen cleaned.

380 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:15:21am

The title--"Exploring Life's Origins"--is apparently a misnomer. The site's "Timeline of Life's Evolution" begins with formation of the solar system from a "giant cloud of rotating gas and dust". If this were actually about origins, however, the site would have to go back, by definition, to the origin. Thus, the site would need to account for origin of the gas and dust, and so on until the first cause of the universe was accounted for. Other than that, it is an interesting site.

381 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:15:47am

re: #352 Dianna

Yes and, glad to say, done!

382 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:16:15am

re: #380 Hanoch

The title--"Exploring Life's Origins"--is apparently a misnomer. The site's "Timeline of Life's Evolution" begins with formation of the solar system from a "giant cloud of rotating gas and dust". If this were actually about origins, however, the site would have to go back, by definition, to the origin. Thus, the site would need to account for origin of the gas and dust, and so on until the first cause of the universe was accounted for. Other than that, it is an interesting site.

Here we go again.

383 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:19:32am

re: #382 Charles

Sorry, I am a stickler for accuracy.

384 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:20:49am

re: #383 Hanoch

Sorry, I am a stickler for accuracy.

That's not accuracy. You're trying to bring in creationism again, very obviously. The exhibit is about the origins of life on Earth, and there's nothing about it that's misnamed or misrepresented.

385 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:21:04am

re: #380 Hanoch

The title--"Exploring Life's Origins"--is apparently a misnomer. The site's "Timeline of Life's Evolution" begins with formation of the solar system from a "giant cloud of rotating gas and dust". If this were actually about origins, however, the site would have to go back, by definition, to the origin. Thus, the site would need to account for origin of the gas and dust, and so on until the first cause of the universe was accounted for. Other than that, it is an interesting site.

Always existing or coming from "nothing", we definitely cross into the philosophical end of Cosmology, as I indicated.

386 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:25:12am

re: #380 Hanoch

Can you see that science and theology can legitimately explore the same question? Science is under no obligation to explore from a theological perspective anymore than theologists ought to be required to explore from a scientific viewpoint.

Thoughtful people from both persuasions may very well privately look into each other's fields of inquiry and find many points of confluence. That's a separate matter.

387 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:26:18am

re: #386 Daisy

Can you see that science and theology can legitimately explore the same question? Science is under no obligation to explore from a theological perspective anymore than theologists ought to be required to explore from a scientific viewpoint.

Thoughtful people from both persuasions may very well privately look into each other's fields of inquiry and find many points of confluence. That's a separate matter.

Well put!

388 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:26:26am

The tactic above is very typical of ID/creationists; demand that science account for everything, all the way back to the beginning of the universe, then claim that because science can't do that (yet?), the only explanation possible is an "intelligent designer."

If scientists were to assume that any gaps in their knowledge must be evidence of a supernatural deity, science itself would be meaningless, and knowledge could never advance.

389 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:28:15am

re: #388 Charles

Yes- the answer to the unknown can not be a pre-determined answer. It should be: "I don't know."

390 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:28:53am

re: #387 legalpad

Why thank you. Of course, philosophers, artists and just about every 4 year old on the planet, can be added to the inquirer's list. :)

391 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:30:36am

re: #390 Daisy

Why thank you. Of course, philosophers, artists and just about every 4 year old on the planet, can be added to the inquirer's list. :)

I have one of each of those among my offspring -

392 Cutty Sark  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:35:56am

" I don't Know " ...that is appropriate , and I'll stick with Stinky on his short statement .

393 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:36:29am

re: #391 legalpad

Then we are both are fortunate - I have the same and a couple of others too:) An inventor, a rock and roll star (singer), an artist (sculptor) a just about to be psychologist, a just about to be RN, and a classical (symphonic/French horn) musician -- and then there are the daughters-in-law -- both of whom are accomplished and beautiful .. I'm thinking I've crossed the line into unadulterated bragging and so, I'll stop now.

394 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:38:55am

re: #388 Charles

The tactic above is very typical of ID/creationists; demand that science account for everything, all the way back to the beginning of the universe, then claim that because science can't do that (yet?), the only explanation possible is an "intelligent designer."

If scientists were to assume that any gaps in their knowledge must be evidence of a supernatural deity, science itself would be meaningless, and knowledge could never advance.

It's impossible to have direct and concrete physical evidence of a Being Who exists without being within the confines of a physical world. The only way that the Creator of the physical world could create it would be to have existed first in a non-physical form (without the possibility of ever being limited by such a thing as a physical universe.)

These are things to discuss in the context of religion and not science, though.

Science should find out whatever science can find out scientifically, so to speak.

What all this means to religious people is a topic best pursued within religions and not in a science discussion or in a science class, IMO.

I agree with you about this.

395 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:40:07am

re: #389 legalpad

Yes- the answer to the unknown can not be a pre-determined answer. It should be: "I don't know."

And I'd add something -- "I don't know, but I'm trying to find out."

396 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:45:02am

re: #384 Charles

If there is something inaccurate about what I said, point it out. Whatever my motives may be for making the comment, they have no bearing on the accuracy of the comment, i.e., either it is inaccurate or not. "Origin" means what it says: the first cause. As far as I know, science is currently incapable of dealing with that issue. A more accurate title would have been "Exploring Life's Development" or possibly "Exploring Life's Evolution". The point is important (at least in my view) because the title creates the false impression that we are dealing with "origins" rather than how things developed at some point after they were initially formed.

397 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:45:25am

re: #395 Charles

re: #389 legalpad

Yes- the answer to the unknown can not be a pre-determined answer. It should be: "I don't know."

And I'd add something -- "I don't know, but I'm trying to find out."

Even if the response from religious people is "You'll never find out and neither will anyone else because G-d made the universe" - I think it's a point best taken within the context of religious discussions, not scientific ones.

I'm 100% convinced that G-d made the universe. I think science should be left alone to explore its wonders (while we speak within religions of how neat it is that He made it so fascinating and complicated.)

398 Cutty Sark  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:49:06am

Hey Charles , this Buisiness with with the Dewinter et al , is really looking like some "Boys from Brasil " deal , in real life .
And that "S " is no coincidence .

Nazi-era ex-SS 'ers , as patrons ...not good at all .
Are these people prolofic , or is it just the internet presence that makes it seem so ?

399 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:50:33am

re: #396 Hanoch

If there is something inaccurate about what I said, point it out. Whatever my motives may be for making the comment, they have no bearing on the accuracy of the comment, i.e., either it is inaccurate or not. "Origin" means what it says: the first cause.

That's not what the exhibit is about, and it doesn't claim to be about that. I suspect you know that. The exhibit is very precisely titled "Exploring Life's Origins," and that is a very accurate title. It examines what we currently know about the beginnings of life on this planet. It says nothing about "first cause."

I hope you don't think this is the first time I've seen this creationist talking point.

400 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:51:47am

re: #386 Daisy

I don't necessarily disagree with you. But you are reading way too much into my comment. I was simply pointing out that the title is not accurate because the website does not deal with origins.

401 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 10:52:13am

re: #396 Hanoch

The point is important (at least in my view) because the title creates the false impression that we are dealing with "origins" rather than how things developed at some point after they were initially formed.

Using the word "origins" doesn't change reality, though.

G-d made the universe - you know it and I know it, too.

When scientists talk about what they've discovered in their studies and research, they can't erase G-d's existence even if they use words that sound like the universe started without Him.

Let them find out what they can about how G-d gave the world to us.

It doesn't change anything in our own religions.

Just my opinion, of course.

402 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:01:51am

re: #400 Hanoch

the website does not deal with origins.

That's exactly what it does do. The fact that there are things that they do not know about it does not mean they are not discussing it. The basic backdrop of the origin of the solar system is just for context. They are not addressing something as complex and data-free as "what happened before the Big Bang" or "What if the Universe was always here". You can not make a simple website that takes in all that, which is not science, of course, by a long stretch. The website is supposed to be simple. The trickiest part of the intelligence origin is how do we know the characteristics of that intelligence? Maybe it is not something we would recognize or understand as such. And we have no real data on this, so what do we put in a website about it?

403 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:03:01am

re: #399 Charles

re: #401 Adina in Judea

All that you said is fine. But that doesn't mean we give a free pass to anyone, be they scientists, theologians, politicians, etc., to misuse language. Despite Charles's insistence to the contrary, the word "origin" means what it says, and if a scientist is going to use that word, he/she should use it accurately.

404 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:05:29am

While I don't consider Wikipedia to be an authoritative source on Judaism or on Jewish thought, I like the Wikipedia description of Maimonides:

Moses Maimonides (March 30, 1135 – December 13, 1204) also known as the Rambam, was a rabbi, physician, and philosopher in Spain, Morocco and Egypt during the Middle Ages. He was the preeminent medieval Jewish philosopher whose ideas also influenced the non-Jewish world.

One of the central tenets of Maimonides's philosophy is that it is impossible for the truths arrived at by human intellect to contradict those revealed by God.

He was talking about science. He was a physician himself (along with being a rabbi and a philosopher) so he dealt in science himself.

He was born in the year 1135. It took awhile for the Jewish world to accept many of the things he said, but he's considered a giant today among historical Jewish sages.

405 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:09:38am

re: #403 Hanoch

All that you said is fine. But that doesn't mean we give a free pass to anyone, be they scientists, theologians, politicians, etc., to misuse language. Despite Charles's insistence to the contrary, the word "origin" means what it says, and if a scientist is going to use that word, he/she should use it accurately.

The definition of "origin" is: "The beginning of something's existence."

The title of the exhibit is: "Exploring Life's Origins."

The title is absolutely accurate. It's an examination of what science knows about the origins of life on Earth, starting with the "RNA World Hypothesis." And it's honest and direct about the current flaws in this hypothesis:

According to the RNA World Hypothesis, RNA was a key molecule that was utilized by the earliest life on Earth to store genetic information and to catalyze chemical reactions. This begs the question, however, of how RNA formed under prebiotic conditions on the early Earth. In fact, the issue of the complete synthesis of RNA nucleotides has been a major stumbling block for the RNA World Hypothesis. The sugar found in the backbone of both DNA and RNA, ribose, has been particularly problematic, as the most prebiotically plausible chemical reaction schemes yield only a small amount of ribose mixed with a diverse assortment of other sugar molecules. Although recent research using mineral catalysts has yielded promising results, a prebiotically feasible chemical pathway that leads to a relatively pure pool of RNA nucleotides in high concentrations has remained elusive.

The language is not being misused by anyone except you. Bringing up a loaded term like "first causes" is a hoary old creationist talking point.

406 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:10:18am

re: #404 Adina in Judea

One of the central tenets of Maimonides's philosophy is that it is impossible for the truths arrived at by human intellect to contradict those revealed by God.

It seems like the important thing is to be sure you actually had and understood fully, a truth revealed by God.

407 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:12:08am

re: #403 Hanoch

All that you said is fine. But that doesn't mean we give a free pass to anyone, be they scientists, theologians, politicians, etc., to misuse language. Despite Charles's insistence to the contrary, the word "origin" means what it says, and if a scientist is going to use that word, he/she should use it accurately.

Misusing language doesn't change reality, either.

Genesis makes it clear that G-d made man from existing materials.

It was a slower process than what was described in Genesis, but G-d literally had all the time in the world (as the One Being not bound by time in any possible way) and the Torah is not a history book or a science book.

So, scientists are finding out how He did it in this complicated process.

It doesn't change the fact that He did it. The word "origins" isn't really a problem.

Let's let the scientists find out what they can about this.

It's really interesting!

408 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:15:15am

re: #406 legalpad

re: #404 Adina in Judea

One of the central tenets of Maimonides's philosophy is that it is impossible for the truths arrived at by human intellect to contradict those revealed by God.

It seems like the important thing is to be sure you actually had and understood fully, a truth revealed by God.

Maimonides taught that we are obligated to use our brains to KNOW that G-d exists (without simply taking it on faith.) Jews still talk about it as if it's faith, but the bottom line is that Jews aren't supposed to just accept the idea that G-d exists without thinking about it and coming to the undeniable truth that G-d really does exist (and that we know it as a fact.)

This is within the context of the religion, though, and not science.

Everyone else can think whatever they want.

409 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:20:11am

re: #405 Charles

RNA was a key molecule that was utilized by the earliest life on Earth

How does this address my point? The quote is referencing the use of RNA molecules "by the earliest life on Earth" and how that RNA was formed. But nowhere in the quote you cite does it discuss how that "earliest life", which made use of these RNA molecules, originated.

410 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:22:47am

re: #409 Hanoch

But nowhere in the quote you cite does it discuss how that "earliest life", which made use of these RNA molecules, originated.

Science can't explore the nature of G-d.

Science can only explore the nature of...well...nature.

This is the job of science.

Religion and philosophy isn't.

411 Basho  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:23:19am

re: #409 Hanoch

But nowhere in the quote you cite does it discuss how that "earliest life", which made use of these RNA molecules, originated.

That's an issue they should explore.

412 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:29:02am

re: #407 Adina in Judea

I agree that science is interesting and important. But I think that science has to be described accurately.

This point could be made in many other areas that do not impinge on theology. An example is the global warming issue that is supposedly man-made. The reality is we really don't know if there is long-term global warming or, if there is, whether it is caused by human activity. But by inaccurately describing that science, a lot of people's lives could be made worse off through foolish policy decisions.

413 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:32:21am

re: #411 Basho

Agreed. Does this site do this? I didn't see it. If so, I stand corrected.

414 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:32:31am

re: #409 Hanoch

How does this address my point? The quote is referencing the use of RNA molecules "by the earliest life on Earth" and how that RNA was formed. But nowhere in the quote you cite does it discuss how that "earliest life", which made use of these RNA molecules, originated.

It addresses your point because it is specifically about the origin of life on Earth. I'm going to keep repeating this, because you insist on trying to divert the discussion into creationist talking points.

One way you could see how the exhibit addresses your points, of course, would be to actually read what is written there. It's pretty clear from your comments that you haven't.

415 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:34:55am

re: #412 Hanoch

I agree that science is interesting and important. But I think that science has to be described accurately.

This point could be made in many other areas that do not impinge on theology. An example is the global warming issue that is supposedly man-made. The reality is we really don't know if there is long-term global warming or, if there is, whether it is caused by human activity. But by inaccurately describing that science, a lot of people's lives could be made worse off through foolish policy decisions.

The global warming thing is something that can be solved by science.

Al Gore isn't a scientist, obviously. He's using this idea as a political one.

It's politics that is pushing the idea that mankind is bad and harming an innocent universe that would be better off (and prettier) without us. Considering that the only physical creatures known in the universe to appreciate physical beauty are human beings, I'm not sure who Al Gore is trying to make the universe prettier for (if not man) - but Al Gore lives in a mental world that doesn't require him to make sense.

Science must attack the non-scientific views of global warming.

Science can't get involved in mysteries about the non-physical nature of G-d.

416 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:37:34am

re: #415 Adina in Judea

Actually, animals are known to appreciate physical beauty in potential mates, so they have a sense of physical beauty but not when it comes to the physical beauty of the universe.

I think the animal standard of the beauty of possible physical mates has more to do with making strong offspring rather than enjoying pretty feathers or nice fur.

417 Basho  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:39:29am

re: #413 Hanoch

"Could early forms of life have survived the Late Heavy Bombardment, or was it only after this tumultuous time that the first cells formed?"

"The atmospheric composition of the early Earth and the timing of the crust and ocean formation have been topics of controversy within the scientific community. Resolving these questions is crucial to understanding the early steps in life's evolution."

I won't post any more examples. It's frustrating to type them.

418 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:41:07am

re: #249 nyc redneck

I spotted it - and you can not only borrow it, you can keep it :)

Did you see the link to Iowahawk that Occasional Reader posted on #250? O.R. is right on - you can't do better than Iowahawk.

419 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:42:21am

re: #415 Adina in Judea

Science can't get involved in mysteries about the non-physical nature of G-d.

I am not contending otherwise. I am simply saying that whatever science chooses to explore, the results should be described accurately. I don't think that is controversial.

420 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:44:44am

re: #419 Hanoch

re: #415 Adina in Judea

Science can't get involved in mysteries about the non-physical nature of G-d.


I am not contending otherwise. I am simply saying that whatever science chooses to explore, the results should be described accurately. I don't think that is controversial.

Science isn't going to walk on eggshells when it comes to using words like "origin" to describe the first signs of the earliest life on Earth, though.

I think we have to get used to that.

421 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:56:50am

re: #417 Basho

If you think this represents an exploration of the origin of life, re: #414 Charles

Thanks for the advice. I can't say I've read every word, but enough to see that the site deals with the evolution of life, rather than the origin of life. And before you click that reply button, I already know--"creationist talking points". Saved you the time.

422 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 11:57:19am

re: #400 Hanoch

I don't necessarily disagree with you. But you are reading way too much into my comment. I was simply pointing out that the title is not accurate because the website does not deal with origins.

I don't think I was reading too much into your statement; the website does indeed deal w/origins. Furthermore, I think Science has a perfectly legitimate right, and even an obligation, to make inquiry into the origins of life. This inquiry in no way obviates a Theological inquiry, anymore than a Theological inquiry nullifies the need for Scientific exploration. Thoughtful people from either realm can (and do) use the results of such investigations to support their personal thinking/ belief systems.

Do you think medical science is capable of (or belongs) investigating the root causes, or origins, of disease? I do. I happen to believe that psychologists and even theologians have their respective places in this line of work too. When we take something of value from all reasonable conclusions reached by separate lines of research, we'll be better able to deal with the consequences of illness.

423 Cutty Sark  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 12:01:16pm

Discourse on this subject will almost always wind up at this point . There are only two possibilities "first cause " or "randomness " , neither of which can be substantiated . Origin of life on Earth ? most certainly evolution , from molecules formed on Earth and may include that which was deposited by asteroids , meteorites , or comets .
"Ex -Nihilo " or " no such thing " ? They are not options , they are Absurdities .

Accept the scientific data available from reliable sources ...and choose your side . " I don't know " will suffice as neutral ground .

424 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 12:03:10pm

re: #421 Hanoch

If you think this represents an exploration of the origin of life, re: #414 Charles

Thanks for the advice. I can't say I've read every word, but enough to see that the site deals with the evolution of life, rather than the origin of life. And before you click that reply button, I already know--"creationist talking points". Saved you the time.

The exhibit deals with the origins of life on Earth. The title is absolutely accurate.

And yes, "first cause" is a creationist talking point, brought up every time the subject of the origin of life is mentioned. It's supposed to be the devastating put-down of science's uppity naturalism.

425 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 12:03:33pm

re: #415 Adina in Judea

"It's politics that is pushing the idea that mankind is bad and harming an innocent universe that would be better off (and prettier) without us."

And Al Gore's greed is pushing the politics of Global Warming.

426 legalpad  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 12:03:36pm

re: #408 Adina in Judea

I think it means that if some things seems to contradict, did we didn't really understand one of them.

427 Basho  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 12:07:31pm

re: #421 Hanoch

If you think this represents an exploration of the origin of life,

"Could early forms of life have survived the Late Heavy Bombardment, or was it only after this tumultuous time that the first cells formed?"

C'mon... trying figuring out exactly when life began on Earth, discussing different hypothesis... that's exploring the origin of life. They aren't claiming they discovered the origin of life. This is all speculation based on evidence and data collected.

428 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 12:22:01pm

re: #427 Basho

re: #422 Daisy

re: #424 Charles

I respectfully disagree. A question or two about when life formed, with 99% of the rest of the site devoted to an exploration of how that life developed or evolved over time, is not, in my view, aptly titled an exploration of origins, as opposed to an exploration of the evolution of life. I'll leave it at that.

429 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 12:26:49pm

re: #428 Hanoch

I respectfully disagree. A question or two about when life formed, with 99% of the rest of the site devoted to an exploration of how that life developed or evolved over time, is not, in my view, aptly titled an exploration of origins, as opposed to an exploration of the evolution of life. I'll leave it at that.

That's a completely inaccurate description of the content of the exhibit, as anyone can see for themselves simply by reading it.

430 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 1:13:28pm

re: #428 Hanoch

re: #422 Daisy

re: #424 Charles

I respectfully disagree. A question or two about when life formed, with 99% of the rest of the site devoted to an exploration of how that life developed or evolved over time, is not, in my view, aptly titled an exploration of origins, as opposed to an exploration of the evolution of life. I'll leave it at that.

You've shifted the basis of your argument to the % of the site's content that deals with origination of life rather than the substance of the site's content. That makes 'respectful disagreement' a disingenuous claim. I'll leave it at that.

431 Cutty Sark  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 1:26:12pm

" First cause ", NOT used with a backdrop of YECs and fundamentalist creationists , or welded to the D.I. , but used as one of two possible logical conclusions, is no less plausible than "random chance " .

432 cannon2  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 2:16:58pm

o.k since science can tell how life first started, lets see you reproduce the event...after all, one of the pillers of good science is suppose to be "reproducable results"...can't do that(yet)? then your THEORY is still just a THEORY and no more valid(or invalid) than that of the creationist, intellegint design, or great flying spagetti monster believers. yes your theory seems to have more "proof" than that of the others, but realizt that the "science" that promotes evolution gets to call what is science and what is not...kind of like the kid that makes up the rules as he goes along...anything that challenges the "science" is labled as "not science" and automatically discounted as "relegious dogma". to be GOOD science, ALL compeating theories must be considered, and studied.

433 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 2:44:28pm

re: #432 cannon2

o.k since science can tell how life first started, lets see you reproduce the event...after all, one of the pillers of good science is suppose to be "reproducable results"...can't do that(yet)?

You don't have to reproduce processes that have taken millions or billions of years to prove that they happened in the first place.

Life did actually get started on Earth at some point. No one has to reproduce the first signs of life to prove that there were first signs of life on the planet.

I can say with 100% certainty from a religious point of view that G-d is the One responsible for this, but scientists can and should look into the first signs of life on the planet without having to bring anyone's religion or philosophy into their research.

Let science do what science does while we in the religions talk about these things in a religious context (in our religious environments.)

434 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 2:47:04pm

re: #432 cannon2

to be GOOD science, ALL compeating theories must be considered, and studied.

When the competing theories go outside and beyond the physical world, they can't be studied by the scientific community.

This is a job for religion and philosophy instead.

435 Basho  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 2:47:57pm

re: #432 cannon2

You should find out what a theory means and what science is. Uninformed opinions just makes one sound dumb.

436 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 2:48:41pm

re: #432 cannon2

I have a theory you're an idiot.

437 Basho  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 2:59:06pm

Anyway, the site says that the evolution of photosynthesis has occurred only once in Earth's history. That's simply fascinating. I would have thought that would have been a common occurrence since solar energy is so plentiful. Makes one wonder what type of life may exist elsewhere in the universe.

438 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 2:59:19pm

re: #430 Daisy

Please. A title deals with the subject of the work, not to a few passing references therein that (arguably, in this case) relate to the title. This is just common sense.

If someone wants to take the view that "origin" means the evolution of lower life into higher forms of life, they are entitled to that view. I just think it is inaccurate use of terms. "Origin" implies an analysis and definition of what constitutes the first form of life--whatever that may be--and how that life came into being. This is contrasted with what that first life form may have evolved into thereafter, which is the subject of the website at issue. I don't think my position warrants being labeled as disingenuous.

439 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:04:42pm

re: #416 Adina in Judea

Actually, animals are known to appreciate physical beauty in potential mates, so they have a sense of physical beauty but not when it comes to the physical beauty of the universe.

I think the animal standard of the beauty of possible physical mates has more to do with making strong offspring rather than enjoying pretty feathers or nice fur.

As far as the animals are concerned, they ARE enjoying pretty feathers/nice fur. They aren't actually thinking in terms of selecting a mate for reproductive fitness, even though in the end that is what they are doing.

Also check these guys out:

Bower Birds

These animals have a strong aesthetic sense. And like most human artists, the main purpose of their work is to impress chicks.

440 Basho  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:09:45pm

re: #438 Hanoch

"According to the RNA World Hypothesis, RNA was a key molecule that was utilized by the earliest life on Earth to store genetic information and to catalyze chemical reactions. This begs the question, however, of how RNA formed under prebiotic conditions on the early Earth. "

"These difficulties have led some scientists to hypothesize that RNA was preceded by other RNA-like molecules that were more stable and readily synthesized under prebiotic conditions. Based on analyses of meteorites, such as the Murchison meteorite, other scientists contest that some components of RNA may have formed in space and arrived on Earth rather than being formed de novo on the Earth. It remains unclear, however, to what extent extraterrestrial sources may have contributed to the diversity of molecules on the early Earth."

"Assuming the presence of pools of RNA nucleotides, how did long strands of RNA form on the early Earth? "

"Another possibility is that strands of RNA could have formed in salty ice water."

"WHY LIFE NEEDS A MEMBRANE COMPARTMENT"

"How might fatty acids have formed on the early Earth? "

All of those have to do with how life on earth originating. I don't mean to copy so much material from the website but you seem incapable of finding it yourself.

441 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:11:58pm

re: #439 Jimmah

As far as the animals are concerned, they ARE enjoying pretty feathers/nice fur. They aren't actually thinking in terms of selecting a mate for reproductive fitness, even though in the end that is what they are doing.

It's built-in for animals to try to select mates who seem to offer the best chances for strong and fit offspring. Pretty feathers and nice fur are indicators of healthy mates, which is why the healthiest mates have evolved to have pretty feathers and nice fur while less healthy possible mates are visibly less endowed with pretty feathers and nice fur.

These animals have a strong aesthetic sense. And like most human artists, the main purpose of their work is to impress chicks.

Yes, they impress chicks so that the chicks will want their offspring to be sired by the guys with the pretty feathers and nice fur. It helps the species to stay strong and it gives chicks visible indicators to see which potential mates would help them to make the best babies.

442 Mr Secul  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:18:43pm

re: #432 cannon2

How old are you? Are you a child or a young teen? Your argument is so infantile that I seriously suspect that you are very young.

443 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:19:33pm

Recently, I saw a program about how a man who studies lions decided to bring two life-sized stuffed lions to Africa to see which one the lady lions preferred as a possible mate.

The stuffed lion bodies were the same (the man had multiple copies of the same male lion body type) but the guy had a variety of wigs that he could put on the stuffed lions as manes of different lengths and colors.

When he left the two stuffed lions in the open in Africa for the ladies to peruse, he found the the first lady lion went directly to one of them and not to the other. She sniffed his butt and looked to see if he was anatomically correct (which he wasn't) but she refused to leave him. He was her idea of the right kind of lion guy.

The second female took one or two steps toward the other lion (which had a different mane), but she turned around quickly to return to the stuffed lion with the more desirable mane.

The scientist thought he wouldn't get the stuffed lions back because the lady lions were sticking close to one of them. Anatomically correct or not, they liked his looks and they were sticking around to see if anything changed on the guy (I guess), such as whether or not he would actually move.

It does have something to do with creating healthy offspring.

The scientist already knew this, but he also found out through this research which color of mane they prefer.

444 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:20:04pm

re: #438 Hanoch

Please. A title deals with the subject of the work, not to a few passing references therein that (arguably, in this case) relate to the title. This is just common sense.

If someone wants to take the view that "origin" means the evolution of lower life into higher forms of life, they are entitled to that view. I just think it is inaccurate use of terms. "Origin" implies an analysis and definition of what constitutes the first form of life--whatever that may be--and how that life came into being. This is contrasted with what that first life form may have evolved into thereafter, which is the subject of the website at issue. I don't think my position warrants being labeled as disingenuous.

Your creationist agenda is coming out in the open now.

445 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:32:34pm

re: #443 Adina in Judea

It does have something to do with creating healthy offspring.

It's definitely about producing healthy offspring. But the lionesses aren't thinking about that - all they are thinking is that first lion looks hella cool.

446 Mr Secul  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:38:38pm

re: #445 Jimmah

It's definitely about producing healthy offspring. But the lionesses aren't thinking about that - all they are thinking is that first lion looks hella cool.

We really don't know what they are thinking. We can have our guesses and opinions but the actual thoughts are denied us.

447 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:43:39pm

re: #445 Jimmah

re: #443 Adina in Judea

It does have something to do with creating healthy offspring.

It's definitely about producing healthy offspring. But the lionesses aren't thinking about that - all they are thinking is that first lion looks hella cool.

He looked hella cool to them because it's instinctive for the lady lions to see his looks as indicative of being a guy who can make healthy offspring.

There's no fad about this. The healthier lions look a certain way and the lady lions know how to identify it. Healthier male lions make for healthier lion babies.

Choosing healthier males to make nice babies is part of how animals function.

448 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:45:59pm

re: #446 Mr Secul

We really don't know what they are thinking. We can have our guesses and opinions but the actual thoughts are denied us.

Quite true.

We do know that many species of males in the animal kingdom go through a lot of trouble to show their worth to potential mates who will be having their babies.

The healthiest males tend to win.

449 Jimmah  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 3:56:27pm

re: #447 Adina in Judea

Choosing healthier males to make nice babies is part of how animals function.

Of course it is. What I am saying is that animals - and that includes humans - don't have to be consciously aware of nature's strategies to follow them.

450 Cutty Sark  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 4:05:46pm

Ahhh yes , the evolutionary response , way back when , women looked for the biggest and strongest brute , this would ensure her own well being and that of children to come .

LOL...today's modern equivelant can easily be found on the "match.com " type websites :

Picture of a beautiful and desirable female / followed by , 'looking for a good man , must be earning between 150 & 250 k ...lol...the modern "protector " and provider of well being .

sorry couldn't resist that , a recently divorced buddy of mine has been trying his luck at those websites , and they are hilarious . Let it not be said that women are shy about saying what they want .

451 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 4:06:14pm

re: #440 Basho

All of those have to do with how life on earth originating. I don't mean to copy so much material from the website but you seem incapable of finding it yourself.

Creationists aren't interested in reading anything that might challenge their beliefs; instead they react in this knee-jerk fashion whenever anyone brings up the subject of scientific explanations for the origin of life.

This post had nothing to do with creationism at all. But notice how threatened some people feel by it.

452 Adina in Judea  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 4:09:17pm

re: #449 Jimmah

re: #447 Adina in Judea

Choosing healthier males to make nice babies is part of how animals function.

Of course it is. What I am saying is that animals - and that includes humans - don't have to be consciously aware of nature's strategies to follow them.

It doesn't appear that animals have the capability of being consciously aware of nature's strategies, although Mr Secul was right in saying that we don't know exactly what they think.

453 Mr Secul  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 4:36:08pm

re: #450 Cutty Sark

Picture of a beautiful and desirable female / followed by , 'looking for a good man , must be earning between 150 & 250 k ...lol...the modern "protector " and provider of well being .

sorry couldn't resist that , a recently divorced buddy of mine has been trying his luck at those websites , and they are hilarious . Let it not be said that women are shy about saying what they want .

That rings some bells...

Some time ago I saw or read about a response a man gave to a woman who was very blunt and business like about the sort of man she wanted, what she had to offer and what she wanted from him.

She was looking for a millionaire, she was very attractive and wanted to be a millionaire's wife. She was offering herself to any interested millionaire and presented her case as a business proposition. She was also complaining that she wasn't having much success to date.

The man's response was something like this...

He appreciated her honesty in being so forthright in stating her business terms and therefore he would respect this honesty by giving her a forthright and honest response.

He told her that her looks were a depreciating asset. She may be gorgeous now but she may not be so attractive in ten or more years time.

He, on the other hand, had abilities that earned him a lot of money, he would always have those abilities.

So he didn't see that what she brought to the table was worth what he could bring to the table. He also said that what she was asking for was marriage. When looking for a marriage partner he was looking for qualities that would make a good partner and mother. He didn't think that someone whose chief asset was her looks would make a good wife or mother.

He finished by stating that although he wouldn't consider her for marriage he would consider hiring her for a shorter period of time as a purely business proposition.

454 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 4:51:22pm

re: #444 Charles

What is a "creationship agenda"? You have referred so many times to creationism, creationist talking points, etc. and I have ignored these comments in favor of sticking to the substance of my point, but I feel compelled to ask at this point what you are talking about. If you mean teaching children in school that the universe was created by a supernatural being, I do not favor that. If you mean those who believe science should not be rigorously pursued regardless of where it leads, I do not favor that either. So I'd appreciate if you would enlighten me.

455 Cutty Sark  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 4:58:50pm

Haha , I love it ! Female Evolutionary instinct confronts modern male pragmatism .

456 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 5:00:38pm

re: #440 Basho

You are grasping at straws. RNA molecules and fatty acids are not life forms, and thus discussing how they developed is not discussing the origin of a life form. In fact, I already pointed out in a prior post that the first paragraph you cite states that "RNA was a key molecule that was utilized by the earliest life". The discussion is about a molecule "utilized" by early life, not the origin of that early life.

457 Charles Johnson  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 5:02:26pm

re: #454 Hanoch

What is a "creationship agenda"? You have referred so many times to creationism, creationist talking points, etc. and I have ignored these comments in favor of sticking to the substance of my point, but I feel compelled to ask at this point what you are talking about. If you mean teaching children in school that the universe was created by a supernatural being, I do not favor that. If you mean those who believe science should not be rigorously pursued regardless of where it leads, I do not favor that either. So I'd appreciate if you would enlighten me.

In previous comments you've been a big defender of the 'intelligent design' hoax. Have you forgotten that?

458 Basho  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 5:16:47pm

re: #456 Hanoch

You are grasping at straws. RNA molecules and fatty acids are not life forms, and thus discussing how they developed is not discussing the origin of a life form.

Oh, for Pete's sake. Anything that led to life would logically be something that isn't alive. Iron and aluminum aren't car parts but they are what make up cars.

459 Mr Secul  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 5:57:11pm

re: #458 Basho

Oh, for Pete's sake. Anything that led to life would logically be something that isn't alive. Iron and aluminum aren't car parts but they are what make up cars.

I think that maybe people are arguing past each other here.

Hanoch is saying that the origin is god and that scientists are wrong to say that the RNA hypothesis directly touches the origin of life.

If god created the universe and us for god's purposes then Hanoch is right. If god did do that then the RNA hypothesis is merely conjecture as to some of the means that he used. It may be correct conjecture but it doesn't touch on the root cause which would be god or god's will.

If god didn't create the universe then Hanoch is wrong. If life is simply the result of chemistry then the RNA hypothesis would be more directly relevant to the origin of life.

I think that Hanoch has slipped away from his original point, the argument has lost clarity but that may simply be because people are talking at cross purposes and he is trying to frame his argument in his opponent's' terms.

Maybe Hanoch can restate his argument, from the beginning, to get back to his original intent.

Here is his original post. (my emphasis)

re: #380 Hanoch

The title--"Exploring Life's Origins"--is apparently a misnomer. The site's "Timeline of Life's Evolution" begins with formation of the solar system from a "giant cloud of rotating gas and dust". If this were actually about origins, however, the site would have to go back, by definition, to the origin. Thus, the site would need to account for origin of the gas and dust, and so on until the first cause of the universe was accounted for. Other than that, it is an interesting site.

I think that Adina had a good point, that the site is a scientific site and, therefore, the terms used should be understood in scientific terms. Therefore the term origin should be understood in the sense that the scientists meant without worrying about the origin.

But if Hanoch wants to make the distinction then maybe we should acknowledge that it is his opinion and move on.

I don't think that the current argument is a test of ID or evolution or abiogenesis.

460 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:10:09pm

re: #457 Charles

I don't know what you mean by a defender, but it seems obvious enough that anyone who believes in G-d believes, by definition, in an intelligent designer. So are you saying that anyone who believes in G-d is a "creationist"? I am not criticizing your position--I am just trying to understand it.

461 Hanoch  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:21:44pm

re: #459 Mr Secul

I think many are reading way too much into my original post. I just made the simple point that I did not think the website really dealt with the origin of life--whatever that might be--but rather, it focused on how simple life forms developed into more complex life forms over time, i.e., evolution rather than origin. It is a bit amusing to see how people immediately assume there must be a nefarious or hidden motive.

462 Basho  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 6:31:10pm

re: #459 Mr Secul

Point taken. Thank you for the articulate comment. I accept it.

463 Daisy  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:47:59pm

re: #438 Hanoch

Please. A title deals with the subject of the work, not to a few passing references therein that (arguably, in this case) relate to the title. This is just common sense.

If someone wants to take the view that "origin" means the evolution of lower life into higher forms of life, they are entitled to that view. I just think it is inaccurate use of terms. "Origin" implies an analysis and definition of what constitutes the first form of life--whatever that may be--and how that life came into being. This is contrasted with what that first life form may have evolved into thereafter, which is the subject of the website at issue. I don't think my position warrants being labeled as disingenuous.

Actually, the title of the exhibit is "Exploring Life's Origins" not origin. So, I'll take back disingenuous and replace it with inaccurate. How's that work?

464 Lynn B.  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 7:56:09pm

re: #463 Daisy

Actually, the title of the exhibit is "Exploring Life's Origins" not origin. So, I'll take back disingenuous and replace it with inaccurate. How's that work?

As a hanger-on to this thread, it would work for me if this Hanoch was genuinely a naif offering an opinion in a void ... but I think Charles had this one pegged all along. After all, he's seen this enough times to recognize it when it pops up. We're being treated to a first class exhibition of creationist trolldom here and probably wasting far too much effort trying to treat it as an honest contributor.

465 [deleted]  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:12:58pm
466 docremulac  Sun, Nov 9, 2008 8:19:15pm

Well, went to the California Academy of Sciences in San Francisco today and I had promised to report to you all so here so here it is:

As soon as you get through the door the first exhibit is the Global Warming bludgeoning and education room. I've now seen the light.

I've decided Global Warming is now a proper noun like God or America and from now on will spell it with capital letters. Other than that, I still may need a long stay in a re-education camp and treatments of psychoactive drugs till I really convert.

They actually had one cartoon suggesting that wanting further studies on global warming was insane and may lead to our deaths. They also had a couple of other cartoons lampooning the non-believers. Cartoons as a science exhibit? Yup. Big bold worded slogans were also the centerpieces of the room. I forgot what they said. "SUBMIT" or something like that I guess. "A QUESTIONING MIND IS AN UN-HAPPY MIND" maybe.

Anyway, the place was packed, but can you guess the one exhibit room nobody was paying any attention to at all? Yup. You guessed it.

The fish, flora and fauna were all there as I remembered it though. It seems like they got tired of writing explanations under each exhibit of why the life form displayed was under some threat from the Bush/Haliburton/Satan alliance so they got a little less tedious to read as you moved through the building so it wasn't as bad as when you first walk in. But that first room, damn!

And don't go on a weekend by the way unless you really like rubbing up against people you don't know. It was that crowded.

467 SpaceJesus  Mon, Nov 10, 2008 8:10:48am

I guess in order to discuss the issue of how the internet originated, we have to go back to the big bang as well in order to fully understand its history and progression.

468 Cutty Sark  Mon, Nov 10, 2008 10:02:44am

#467 C'mon man , everyone knows Al Gore invented the internet .

469 Daisy  Mon, Nov 10, 2008 1:24:51pm

re: #464 Lynn B.

I'm sure you're correct. Funny thing is, I've no problem w/him - or anyone else - being a creationist. But I do have a problem w/not simply saying it's so, if that's the case.


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 Frank says:

Let's just admit that public education is mediocre at best.