ello.

He's absolutey right about NCLB. It's done nothing be make teachers 'teach to the test' - as if things weren't bad enough already.

This is the reason why the California GOP has become so irrelevant they can't even unseat a demonstrable and embarrassing moron like Babs Boxer. They insist on running single-issue candidates. Oh, they've been nice fellows and all, but one issue and one issue only.

The law cannot be made identical with morality.

Sure it can. Allah Akbar.

re: #3 Spiny Norman

I think the Illinois GOP is the same way.

re: #2 wahabicorridor

He's absolutey right about NCLB. It's done nothing be make teachers 'teach to the test' - as if things weren't bad enough already.

Ted Kennedy (his staffers, actually) wrote the NCLB to fail. It was quite deliberate. Same with HMOs, and hell, all the way back to the 1965 immigration reforms.

If Ted Kenendy is involved in any way, you'll know it's a scam.

re: #3 Spiny Norman

It's also why CT-3 can never mount a viable candidate against Rosa De Lauro.

OT, or maybe not: Tim Blair had a column on the "52 to 48" website... but the true winner is the comment from Janine V of Perth (scroll down):

That website made me want to puke. Those head-tilts are now not of compassion but condescension. As if the left has anything to teach anyone about graciousness or moderation in attitude or behaviour.

Of course conservatives will “get along” and make nice - it’s why they knew they could get away with all the atrocious things they’ve said and done the past 8 years. Did anyone hear GWB whining about all the stuff that’s been said and written about him? Has he blackballed a network for asking “tough” questions? Has he querulously queried a news anchor about being a shill for the opposing side?

Do you know why conservatives generally have the capacity for graciousness in victory and defeat? Because, as a rule, conservatives are happy with who they are. There’s no cognitive dissonance going on, because we live what we believe - we like free markets, so we consume; we actually care for our less fortunate neighbours, so we give generously (of our OWN money that we earn) and we buy their stuff so they can gain wealth; we don’t believe the economy works by taking from one and giving to the other (as though a dollar for you means a dollar less for me), so we work hard, pay our taxes grudgingly and rejoice at the success of others while working to secure our own; we don’t believe in AGW, so we don’t agonise over the recycling or flying or driving anywhere. It’s bliss.

If you’re a lefty in a western capitalist democracy, this is impossible because you are living off the wealth created by a system you think you despise. You are inherently angry and bitter all the time, because your life can’t measure up to your impossible ideals, and you are naturally self-absorbed and self-centered because of this anger and bitterness. It’s all consuming.

Of course, I’m generalising. I’m sure some of the head-tilties pictured were appalled at the treatment of the conservatives at the hands of the minority (but vocal) radicalised elements of their pseudo-religion, and in the last 8 years raised their voices again and again in protest at such unprovoked and vicious assaults on the character and person of their political opponents, all the while gently counselling their wayward brethren to focus on critiquing ideas, and having genuine debates rather than resorting to name-calling.

And I know, some conservative once called you a name so we are just as bad. Boo hoo. Go cry in your victory herbal tea, winner, and try to figure out just how to run something and lead something for once, instead of making dopey-hopey-changey noises and singing “How many times must a man blah blah” while wearing your “Abort Sarah Palin” button on your “Sarah Palin is a C***” t-shirt while waving your “GWB is not my President” banner and throwing a molotov cocktail at the McDonald’s on the corner. Oh, and did I forget to mention the “No War for Oil” hat on your head?

This makes me sound unhappy doesn’t it? But the above is what the left actually DID. It’s so bitter, angry, twisted and unhinged that merely stating the fact makes me sound bitter, angry, twisted and unhinged. So sad. (head tilt) But I weally, weally wuv you guys and want to make it work so your heads don’t explode. M’kay?(/head tilt)

JanineV of Perth (Reply)
Sat 08 Nov 08 (06:22pm)

Ya gotta love her.

:)

Righteousness cannot be legislated. Period.

The social conservatives' position on abortion has been overrun by the American people, and the cause of conservatism has been damaged as a result. We need to change our position from outlawing abortion to closely regulating it.

My favorite O'Rourke was Parliament of Whores, especially his conclusion who the whores really are.

does the pope have a wife? should we rewrite the bible or the Koran for political "modern issues"? should we loose our soul/spirit to do like the other side to win elections?
i don't think so. and too bad if I'm wrong.

re: #12 peppermintboy

does the pope have a wife? should we rewrite the bible or the Koran for political "modern issues"? should we loose our soul/spirit to do like the other side to win elections?
i don't think so. and too bad if I'm wrong.

Huh?

re: #8 Steffan

OT, or maybe not: Tim Blair had a column on the "52 to 48" website... but the true winner is the comment from Janine V of Perth (scroll down):

Ya gotta love her.

:)

That was excellent. Thanks!

If the citizenry insists that abortion remain legal—and, in a passive and conflicted way, the citizenry seems to be doing so—then give the issue a rest.

I was looking into this very issue yesterday. For 30 years now, the polling data on the public's opinion on abortion has remained fairly consistent. No dramatic shift in anyone's position. The majority of the country seems to think it should remain the way it is, with few limitations.

It is a dead horse for the party. We should step away from the call for a Constitutional amendment banning abortion, and focus our energies on ways where we can make a real difference for women and babies- such as improving adoption laws.

Furthermore- it is unrealistic to call for an amendment when the public opinion is against it. We will never get the 2/3 of bot houses of Congress to pass it, nor will we get the 3/4 of the states to pass it. As morally correct as it is- the votes are not there to support an amendment. It's time we accept reality and come up with better plans to stop abortion at it's root source- unplanned pregnancies.

I was hoping this would garner its own thread. Thanks Killgore and Charles.

it's funny the conservatives in Canada would be left of the democrats.

re: #8 Steffan

Go cry in your victory herbal tea, winner, and try to figure out just how to run something and lead something for once, instead of making dopey-hopey-changey noises and singing “How many times must a man blah blah” while wearing your “Abort Sarah Palin” button on your “Sarah Palin is a C***” t-shirt while waving your “GWB is not my President” banner and throwing a molotov cocktail at the McDonald’s on the corner. Oh, and did I forget to mention the “No War for Oil” hat on your head?

One of the best sentences ever written anywhere.

re: #8 Steffan

OT, or maybe not: Tim Blair had a column on the "52 to 48" website... but the true winner is the comment from Janine V of Perth (scroll down):

Ya gotta love her.

:)

Yep. Comment of the Year.

I also like Dave S's interpretation:

Dear 48 -
Don't go batsh*t crazy like we did.

L♥ve,
- 52 -

re: #12 peppermintboy

America isn't built on the Bible.

re: #15 Sharmuta

How about more available and cheaper birth control?

PJ is right. And getting rid of those who want morality and religion in our platform, is not watering down conservatism, it is returning to what conservatism is.

There is no way Conservatives will have credibility in limited government, with part of the party still trying to be big government when it comes to personal issues like morality.

re: #21 MandyManners

How about more available and cheaper birth control?

I agree!

re: #6 Spiny Norman

Ted Kennedy (his staffers, actually) wrote the NCLB to fail. It was quite deliberate

I'm no Teddy fan, but I found that a bit much to swallow. Care to elaborate?

re: #15 Sharmuta

It's time we accept reality and come up with better plans to stop abortion at it's root source- unplanned pregnancies.

hear - hear! I have often thought about this issue as folks trying to enact penalties for horses running loose when no one seems to address barn security. NOT that barn security should be legislated.

re: #23 Sharmuta

I like what the feds have done to better enforce child support orders across state lines. UIFSA.

re: #3 Spiny Norman

What happened to Tom McClintock's bid? Haven't heard anything.

I've got to make this short, but I disagree with the view of abandoning the social conservative wing of the party. Partly because it is inextricably linked to the other wings; fiscal restraint and smaller government intervention.

The victory of Prop 8 here in CA is proof of that. It's amazing how many people are shocked that it passed until you tell them that the CA domestic partner/civil union statutes civil same sex couples all the rights and benefits of marriage--just not the name. That's what the fuss here is all about--a name. It's not an issue of depriving people of their rights; it's semantics. But, the fact that it did pass here, and in AZ and Fl--and is present in 30 other states is evidence that social conservatism is viable. I agree, though, it can't be the only issue/pillar espoused by conservative candidates.

Now, here is something the chew on. Until Tuesday, I thought that if the SCOTUS ever reversed itself on Roe v Wade and gave the power to the states to decide the issue of abortion, that the vast majority of the states would legalize it to some degree, based on Casey v Planned Parenthood. But, the passage of Prop 8 and the continued existence of socially conservative Americans- Dem and GOP alike makes me think otherwise.

Any--to the showers and church. Check in later if the Chargers are doing badly.

I'm also surprised that he didn't bring up issues like gay marriage and assisted suicide. These are personal liberty issues and should be more popular among conservatives.

re: #21 MandyManners

How about more available and cheaper birth control?

How about personal responsibility?

re: #8 Steffan

Most excellent
This post should be an up-ding magnet

Janine V rocks!

re: #29 Miss Trixie

How about personal responsibility?

That's part of it.

The law cannot be made identical with morality.

In a different context than O’Rourke is addressing here (but a convenient time to bring it up) I understand that one of Alinsky's rules for radicals is to demand society live up to it's ideals one hundred percent. Of course no complex diverse society can do that. When society inevitably fails, radicals proclaim it to be hypocritical and a failure and empty of moral value. This is exactly what the left does on so many issues, especially race. This works best when the press is along for the ride.

re: #21 MandyManners

How about more available and cheaper birth control?

Before and after for some people...///

I think, and I may be wrong, that for a republic to actually work, the people must agree on some general standards of behavior, to a man. In the case of the early USA, I think those general standards were encapsulated in the Ten Commandments.

Over time, we have shifted from those, as a country. I am not making a statement of good or bad, just fact. Until we can determine what our *general standards* of behavior are in this modern world, we will flounder a bit.

When the definitions of the words are morphing, it is impossible to have a cogent debate.

Does anyone know if dead-beat parents' stimulus checks were sent to their kids?

re: #33 calcajun

Now, now. Be nice.

re: #24 wahabicorridor

I'm no Teddy fan, but I found that a bit much to swallow. Care to elaborate?

George Bush's first "reaching across the aisle" expedition was "education reform", and he chose to let Sen. Kennedy lead it. What he came up with was so clumsy and poorly wrought that it was mocked and ridiculed from the very beginning. Who was blamed? Not it's author, but George W. Bush. I'm absolutely convinced that was Kennedy's intention. A stab in the back.

re: #15 Sharmuta

such as improving adoption laws.

YES! my stepson and wife adopted a baby from Guatemala in 2006. Why the HELL did they have to go there? Do you want to hear the horror stories about what it's like here? My daughter-in-law practically had to be medicated, the stress was so overwhelming.

And ANOTHER thing. It's no secret that the African American community does everything it can to prevent inter-racial adoption. That crap has to stop.

re: #29 Miss Trixie

Sex Ed is easier to teach.

re: #25 hermit

We can't even hold onto a majority in both houses for 10 years- how are we going to suddenly get a super majority in both houses and a super majority of the legislatures in 3/4 of the states? All this plank in the platform does is turn people away who would otherwise be supportive of the vast majority of our platform. If it were moderated away from a Constitutional ban, yet still supportive of life, we could make more headway, imo.

re: #21 MandyManners

How about more available and cheaper birth control?

Mandy, how much does a pack of condoms at an all night drugstore cost?

re: #38 wahabicorridor

YES! my stepson and wife adopted a baby from Guatemala in 2006. Why the HELL did they have to go there? Do you want to hear the horror stories about what it's like here? My daughter-in-law practically had to be medicated, the stress was so overwhelming.

And ANOTHER thing. It's no secret that the African American community does everything it can to prevent inter-racial adoption. That crap has to stop.

Not gonna' happen with CBBHO sitting in the White House. Look for more radical policies in the "human services" agencies.

re: #38 wahabicorridor

YES! my stepson and wife adopted a baby from Guatemala in 2006. Why the HELL did they have to go there? Do you want to hear the horror stories about what it's like here? My daughter-in-law practically had to be medicated, the stress was so overwhelming.

And ANOTHER thing. It's no secret that the African American community does everything it can to prevent inter-racial adoption. That crap has to stop.

Isnt the zero an example of an interracial family that WORKED? sheesh

re: #41 wahabicorridor

Mandy, how much does a pack of condoms at an all night drugstore cost?

Rubber can break.

Well I'm still trying to hold off on making any judgments or philosophical statements about this election because, for me, the issues and the pain are still too raw.
But it's getting more and more difficult to resist and reflect. Hell even the terms "liberal" and "conservative" have lost their meaning and I've been sick to death over single issue voters for years now.
I think a major cause of my desire to hold off judgments and "philosophies" is simply because, no matter how you cut it or parse it or phrase it, Barack Obama bought this election. This was not a contest of ideas - except, perhaps, among "conservatives" or Republicans. Obama really didn't put forth any ideas per se, he simply trotted them out on his website as trial balloons and, as Charles frequently pointed out, erased them when they did not apparently appeal to the masses of voters he (or his advisors) thought they would.

So I'm not prepared to offer any ideas, thoughts or suggestions either about this campaign, the candidates, or the philosophies of the candidates because if I were to do so my philosophy would be to try to out raise the "Democrats" and buy America back. Or at least cancel Obama's lease on her.

I really do believe that any time a group - from the left or from the right - tries to legislate one of their social agendas, it will boomerang.

Conservatives need to get off the abortion and gay marriage bandwagons and start focusing on the principles of liberty that made our country so strong.

re: #41 wahabicorridor

And when condoms break, then what?

The last time I was on the pill, I was stunned at the cost. Granted- it's cheaper than a baby, but still- it prices out a lot of young women, and it's not covered by a lot of insurance programs. That's just wrong.

re: #42 MandyManners
Mandy,
What does CB in CBBHO stand for?

Regarding abortion, my understanding is that Sarah Palin's opposition to Roe is that the federal government/judiciary is in no position to judge the issue, and it should be addressed only on a more local level -- state, country, etc. If I have her position right, then I am totally in agreement with her. If it is on a local level then an individual can actually do something about it. They can either campaign to get the local law changed, or pack up and move to the next county. What gives some judge the right to decide what is ultimately an issue of personal conscience?

re: #37 Spiny Norman

George Bush's first "reaching across the aisle" expedition was "education reform", and he chose to let Sen. Kennedy lead it. What he came up with was so clumsy and poorly wrought that it was mocked and ridiculed from the very beginning. Who was blamed? Not it's author, but George W. Bush. I'm absolutely convinced that was Kennedy's intention. A stab in the back.

Ah, I understand. A bit convoluted, perhaps, but I see where you're coming from.

re: #40 Sharmuta

i couldn't agree more - the number of murderers in prison as the litmus here.

When avoidance of punishment becomes the impetus, you've already lost the fight for well-formed conscience.

re: #48 Irene NYC

Mandy,
What does CB in CBBHO stand for?

Commie Bastard.

Gotta' go.

re: #43 Wishing

Isnt the zero an example of an interracial family that WORKED? sheesh

Well, let's see, his bio dad deserted them, his mom and stepfather divorced, he was left on his grandparents doorstep to be raised - so I would say...NO

A lot of people pointed to the ban of gay marriage in California to support their contention that social issues did drive this election and that it's good for the party. If that were true, how to explain the results in South Dakota, a red state, that voted to not ban abortion in their state?

re: #38 wahabicorridor

YES! my stepson and wife adopted a baby from Guatemala in 2006. Why the HELL did they have to go there? Do you want to hear the horror stories about what it's like here? My daughter-in-law practically had to be medicated, the stress was so overwhelming.

And ANOTHER thing. It's no secret that the African American community does everything it can to prevent inter-racial adoption. That crap has to stop.

Absolutely. What you both said. While I believe in being responsible for your body by not nailing anything that moves, when unPLANNED pregnancy results, it's not the child's fault and the child should have the opportunity to a chance at a decent life.

re: #45 realwest

This is what I mean, Real: the very words themselves have different meanings to different groups. There is no way to have even a half-sane discussion when the words in use have different meanings to the participants.

re: #12 peppermintboy

does the pope have a wife? should we rewrite the bible or the Koran for political "modern issues"? should we loose our soul/spirit to do like the other side to win elections?
i don't think so. and too bad if I'm wrong.

The Bible (particularly the Old Testament/Torah) is full of rules to live by, most of which make perfect sense in a world without flush toilets and refrigeration.

The moral rules, however, are as relevant today as they were when they were written. We might wish that more people took those rules seriously, but unless they actively harm others, and are willing to live with the consequences of their actions, I'm willing to leave them be if they'll return the favor.

It is not our place to impose our beliefs on others, nor is it our place to allow others to impose their beliefs on us. That, I think, is the lesson that the Obamabots and the No on 8 partisans have failed to learn.

re: #54 wahabicorridor

Well, let's see, his bio dad deserted them, his mom and stepfather divorced, he was left on his grandparents doorstep to be raised - so I would say...NO

lol sorry forgot the / tag lol

re: #27 calcajun

What happened to Tom McClintock's bid? Haven't heard anything.

He's never had much support from the state Party apparatus and is himself portrayed, not entirely inaccurately, as a single-issue candidate: reining in government spending. IIRC, he's about to be term-limited out by legislation he vigorously supported, knowing full well he'd be a "victim" of it.

re: #15 Sharmuta

I was looking into this very issue yesterday. For 30 years now, the polling data on the public's opinion on abortion has remained fairly consistent. No dramatic shift in anyone's position. The majority of the country seems to think it should remain the way it is, with few limitations.

It is a dead horse for the party. We should step away from the call for a Constitutional amendment banning abortion, and focus our energies on ways where we can make a real difference for women and babies- such as improving adoption laws.

Furthermore- it is unrealistic to call for an amendment when the public opinion is against it. We will never get the 2/3 of bot houses of Congress to pass it, nor will we get the 3/4 of the states to pass it. As morally correct as it is- the votes are not there to support an amendment. It's time we accept reality and come up with better plans to stop abortion at it's root source- unplanned pregnancies.

Unfortunately, the left also controls most educational institutions.
Many states have passed balot initiatives to put limitations on abortions. Once the child is viable, there is no excuse for killing it except convenience. Those initiatives have been hamstrung by the courts. It should be left to the states. If Kansas says no abortions after viability, it shold be so, and if Illnoise wants to allow the slaughter of live children who survive the abortion attempt, I will not oppose them.

re: #47 Sharmuta

And when condoms break, then what?

The last time I was on the pill, I was stunned at the cost. Granted- it's cheaper than a baby, but still- it prices out a lot of young women, and it's not covered by a lot of insurance programs. That's just wrong.

I couldn't take the pill. Early on it caused migraines, blood clots, a spastic colon and other lovely things. When my Doctor told me to stop taking the pill I was flustered and said "what am I supposed to do now?". He looked at me and said "abstain". lol!

I'll never forget him. One of the best internists I've ever known.

#35 mandy manners
Yes stimulus checks went to pay child support debt.
I'm a support enforcement agent and verbally cheered when we found out. I agree with your comment on uifsa as well. I work in the interstate unit so deal with enforcing across state lines

Sixty Nine percent of Republicans believe Palin helped the ticket, all reality based evidence- and polls- say she didn't help and likely hurt.

Many Republicans are delusional. That can be a problem.

re: #55 Sharmuta

A lot of people pointed to the ban of gay marriage in California to support their contention that social issues did drive this election and that it's good for the party. If that were true, how to explain the results in South Dakota, a red state, that voted to not ban abortion in their state?

The first time they tried it is SD, the abortion provider would have been subject to criminal prosecution. This time around it was just very stiff fines. It was a VERY punitive law - and as it is there is only one clinic in the state that performs abortions and the physician travels in something like once every two weeks from out of state.

I gather the people of SD saw a hammer aiming for a gnat.

re: #46 rightymouse

and they are the principles of LIBERTY - the true freedom to make a choice. the choice you make is based on the development of your conscience which, IMO, cannot be fostered in an "everybody wins" environment.

re: #45 realwest

Obama really didn't put forth any ideas per se, he simply trotted them out on his website as trial balloons and, as Charles frequently pointed out, erased them when they did not apparently appeal to the masses of voters he (or his advisors) thought they would.

Yes, exactly. As Rush pointed out, he has no positions, only statements he changes as necessary.

I might as well say this now. The best case scenario for the country is that he really does not believe in anything, and just wants to be president.

I read the whole thing. Scathing.

What is conservatism should be the question. Here's a notion from Reagan, 1975:
[Link: www.conservative.org...]

Let us show that we stand for fiscal integrity and sound money and above all for an end to deficit spending, with ultimate retirement of the national debt.

Let us also include a permanent limit on the percentage of the people’s earnings government can take without their consent.

Let our banner proclaim a genuine tax reform that will begin by simplifying the income tax so that workers can compute their obligation without having to employ legal help.

And let it provide indexing—adjusting the brackets to the cost of living—so that an increase in salary merely to keep pace with inflation does not move the taxpayer into a surtax bracket. Failure to provide this means an increase in government’s share and would make the worker worse off than he was before he got the raise.

Let our banner proclaim our belief in a free market as the greatest provider for the people.

Let us also call for an end to the nit-picking, the harassment and over-regulation of business and industry which restricts expansion and our ability to compete in world markets.

Let us explore ways to ward off socialism, not by increasing government’s coercive power, but by increasing participation by the people in the ownership of our industrial machine.

Our banner must recognize the responsibility of government to protect the law-abiding, holding those who commit misdeeds personally accountable.

And we must make it plain to international adventurers that our love of peace stops short of “peace at any price.”

We will maintain whatever level of strength is necessary to preserve our free way of life.

Conspicuously absent? Social issues. Conspicuously present? Taxes; the lifeblood of the political class.

re: #10 ClosetConservative

The social conservatives' position on abortion has been overrun by the American people, and the cause of conservatism has been damaged as a result. We need to change our position from outlawing abortion to closely regulating it.

The decision to have an abortion is a deeply personal one. And it is a decision that the government should keep it's nose out of. Period. That's as Conservative a position as it is possible to take, in my opinion.

Note that this means that the government should not be trying to pass laws criminalizing abortion. Note also that it means that the government should not be trying to pass laws promoting - or funding - abortion in any way. It means that the government should turn this controversy back where it belongs - to the arena of personal ethics and morals.

True Conservatism espouses non-intrusive government that creates an environment where everyone is as free as possible to live their own life as they see fit, with as few constraints and requirements imposed by the government as reason allows.

re: #12 peppermintboy

does the pope have a wife? should we rewrite the bible or the Koran for political "modern issues"? should we loose our soul/spirit to do like the other side to win elections?
i don't think so. and too bad if I'm wrong.

So if the churches fail to teach their morality to their congregations, the churches should turn to the government to enforce it on the population? I would argue that's neither conservatism nor American.

Conservatism didn't fail, it wasn't leading. Maybe that in itself was a failure, we made nice with who was leading because they were on "our side". Well look what happens when conservatism doesn't prevail. Our leaders spend just like the left, we look the other way on wall street because they are making money even if in the long run we pay for their corruptness.

re: #37 Spiny Norman

BINGO.
I was shocked to hear he had brain cancer. I figured liver problems or a DUI accident would do him in.

re: #66 hermit

and they are the principles of LIBERTY - the true freedom to make a choice. the choice you make is based on the development of your conscience which, IMO, cannot be fostered in an "everybody wins" environment.

Exactly. When we try to legislate what we believe to be 'moral', we're essentially trying to use the force of government to dictate how another person should live their life. It's wrong, no matter which side of the spectrum uses force to control other people.

re: #61 JeremyR

You're not going to get an argument from me that this is a state issue. My point is that this call for a Constitutional amendment on the national republican platform is more harmful to the party than it is good. It's unrealistic. We are not wrong in thinking abortion is bad, but it's not a realistic goal to think we'll ever pass an amendment. It's delusional to think we will.

re: #70 Sharmuta

AMEN - let the churches do their own work (mine included). I don't want the government's help. it's one of those "follow the money" moments... "but the gov't has all that money, our job would be so much easier if we had more money" HA! Not a quote from Mother Theresa i guarantee!

re: #52 MandyManners

Commie Bastard.

SO is it WABoCBBHO for his wife?

re: #44 MandyManners

Rubber can break
Tell me about it. I think the fail rate is somewhere around 30%. not that the percent matters if yours is the one that breaks

as to available birth control. It is real easy to get. planned parenthood will hand it out without parental consent. One of the schools in this benighted state actually will give the pill out in the school clinic without notifying the parents. Just to be clear I'm NOT in favor of children being given a prescription medication with telling their parents

re: #73 rightymouse

Exactly. When we try to legislate what we believe to be 'moral', we're essentially trying to use the force of government to dictate how another person should live their life. It's wrong, no matter which side of the spectrum uses force to control other people.

See my #9.

I don't know.

Roe v. Wade is a bad ruling. The decision should go back to the states. Yes, I know it won't in the foreseeable future, but it's bad law.

I can't tell you what happened to my fellow Catholics, without whom Obama would have lost, but I can tell you that I take my pro-life beliefs very seriously. It makes me sick to my stomach that one of the first things Mr. Obama will do is write an executive order providing government funding for embryonic stem cell research, when other forms of stem cells already show so much promise. He will provide more funding for Planned Parenthood. He will make me a party to abortion, which is as abhorrent to me as slavery. I don't care what gay couples do, and I don't mind if they have all the rights as couples as straight couples, but they are not married. Marriage is between a man and a woman.

McCain didn't lose because of the Republican platform. O'Rourke is right that we blew it, but we don't fix the problem by alienating those that are most likely to turn out to vote. I don't expect leftists to abanon their cherished beliefs, and I won't abandon mine. I _will_ do my best to articulate those beliefs in a way that will appeal to people.

YMMV.

re: #15 Sharmuta

I was looking into this very issue yesterday. For 30 years now, the polling data on the public's opinion on abortion has remained fairly consistent. No dramatic shift in anyone's position. The majority of the country seems to think it should remain the way it is, with few limitations.

It is a dead horse for the party. We should step away from the call for a Constitutional amendment banning abortion, and focus our energies on ways where we can make a real difference for women and babies- such as improving adoption laws.

Furthermore- it is unrealistic to call for an amendment when the public opinion is against it. We will never get the 2/3 of bot houses of Congress to pass it, nor will we get the 3/4 of the states to pass it. As morally correct as it is- the votes are not there to support an amendment. It's time we accept reality and come up with better plans to stop abortion at it's root source- unplanned pregnancies.

I read somewhere recently that Ruth Bader Ginsburg gave a speech wherein she said something to the effect that Roe v. Wade was a mistake -- that granting abortion rights by judicial fiat, bypassing the voters, merely hardened opinions on both sides of the issue and kept the argument alive far longer than if they'd settled the issue by an election.

You're right, though, it's a dead horse.

re: #79 Wishing

See my #9.

Righteousness cannot be legislated. Period.

Yep. It can only be taught by words and by example.

re: #69 SixDegrees

True Conservatism espouses non-intrusive government that creates an environment where everyone is as free as possible to live their own life as they see fit, with as few constraints and requirements imposed by the government as reason allows.

Freedom. Liberty. That's the message we need to promote. Back to the basics.

From the pen of Peter Hitchens. Very sad piece. Pretty soon we're going to have to quit moping and start doing. Anybody got any ideas? How do we stop this country's slide into third world powerlessness?

re: #80 Palandine

I can't tell you what happened to my fellow Catholics, without whom Obama would have lost

Tell me about it. And what community does abortion impact the most? African American.

Killgore Trout had posted this in another thread - read the whole thing back there.

While I don't agree w/every one of PJ's points, I do substantially agree w/him. And I completely endorse the idea that taking clear stock of (and responsibility for) one self/one's party is a powerful practice. It's simply much more efficacious than focusing exclusively on one's political rival's flawed/dysfunctional agendas.

This practice of self-accountability ( a core conservative value, IMO) is rare in the personal realm and just about non-existent in the political realm. PJ is strong on holding Conservatism to self-accountability. Great article/pure PJ O'Rourke.

re: #64 opinionated

Sixty Nine percent of Republicans believe Palin helped the ticket, all reality based evidence- and polls- say she didn't help and likely hurt.

Can you see the massive contradiction in that statement?

The vast majority of Republicans believe Ronald Reagan was a great President, but most Democrats and media pundits beg to differ. Does that make the Republicans delusional, too?

Sarah Palin definitely helped the McCain ticket, just not nearly enough. McCain himself was simply a poor candidate who ran a inept campaign. He's what we get when "moderates" "independents" and "crossover" Democrats voting in open primaries choose the GOP nominee.

re: #12 peppermintboy

does the pope have a wife? should we rewrite the bible or the Koran for political "modern issues"? should we loose our soul/spirit to do like the other side to win elections?
i don't think so. and too bad if I'm wrong.

I'm with ya on that!

re: #29 Miss Trixie

How about personal responsibility?

I agree that the problem with unwanted pregnancies is not a lack of knowledge or a lack of cheap birth control. We have that. That's why I don't get torqued about sex education (or lack thereof).

The real way to get people to become more responsible is give them alternatives to unwanted pregnancy. They need to be motivated enough to see that it's better for them to put off childbearing. That means education and jobs. And, on the disincentive side, limit the perks. Welfare reform did more to decrease unwanted pregnancies than any amount of free birth control ever could.

re: #49 Luigi

Regarding abortion, my understanding is that Sarah Palin's opposition to Roe is that the federal government/judiciary is in no position to judge the issue, and it should be addressed only on a more local level -- state, country, etc. If I have her position right, then I am totally in agreement with her. If it is on a local level then an individual can actually do something about it. They can either campaign to get the local law changed, or pack up and move to the next county. What gives some judge the right to decide what is ultimately an issue of personal conscience?

Trying to legislate moral positions is fundamentally anti-Conservative. It is an attempt to ram one person's moral position down another person's throat.

Conservatives shouldn't be trying to legislate abortion at all. Ultimately, what someone else chooses to do is their business, not mine. Legislating morality is basically wrong and futile. Or worse. Once that precedent is established, it only takes a small shift - sort of like a very recent election - to put the shoe on the other foot and, with the example already set, impose mandatory abortions based on the winner's moral outlook.

Far better to ensure that Conservatives create an environment where individual freedom is paramount and surrounded by a bulwark of invincible protections. If that means that other people wind up leading lives you don't approve of, that's tough. And inevitable.

re: #52 MandyManners

Commie Bastard.

Ahhh - Charlie Brown just made no sense.

It's strange to see this condemnation of pro-life efforts... as if abortion had been elevated to its position in the national debate by pro-lifers themselves!

Abortion was forced upon the national public as a constitutional right by an ideologically-driven Supreme Court. Maybe it should not be a defining national issue - maybe. But let us place the blame where it belongs: on Roe, not on the pro-life movement, a grassroots movement of sensible individuals which has been exploited endlessly by moderate Republicans for the past 35 years.

The election was not lost on issues.
Obama is cute on TV, and McCain was not.
Add free handouts promised for gas and mortgages, non-stop free ads from the MSM, and that's it.
Unless we get a marketable candidate, we can't win.

re: #80 Palandine

I agree Roe is bad law. I agree that abortion is bad. I just think clinging to an unattainable solution isn't helpful. There are a number of organizations that have saved more babies from that fate than the republican party has by clinging to this plank. I would rather see us enable women to not get pregnant and to help babies find good homes by improving adoption laws than continue to delude ourselves that a ban via amendment will ever happen.

re: #75 Sharmuta

You're not going to get an argument from me that this is a state issue. My point is that this call for a Constitutional amendment on the national republican platform is more harmful to the party than it is good. It's unrealistic. We are not wrong in thinking abortion is bad, but it's not a realistic goal to think we'll ever pass an amendment. It's delusional to think we will.

Fully agree.
My first sentence is where the fight should be at, education. We as parents should do the teaching on morals. The schools have their hands full with reading math history and such. Morals should be taught at home. Unfortunately, morals are not taught by having three diffrent uncles in the bed every week, so many parents fail, and then the schools deepen it.
The battle is won, one kid at a time.

re: #90 SixDegrees

If we're lucky maybe we can move conservative to a more libertarian position. the best party would be a melding of republican and libertarian imho

I think I probably came in late to this--off dealing with my cake--but when you have the entertainment industry pushing sexuality on the audience and portraying that as a means for young women to be accepted, it's very difficult for young people whose brains have not yet engaged to do anything but act out what the culture is screaming at them to do. Sex & The City did nothing to help our country. The Gossip Girls books were inconceivable 50 years ago. Sure, take responsibility, sure birth control should be cheap and available, but when sex has all the import of a handshake, as a society we have all the depth of water bugs.

re: #21 MandyManners

How about more available and cheaper birth control?

Covered the same way Viagra (God help us) is covered by insurance.

re: #93 FightingBack

The election was not lost on issues.
Obama is cute on TV, and McCain was not.
Add free handouts promised for gas and mortgages, non-stop free ads from the MSM, and that's it.
Unless we get a marketable candidate, we can't win.

At this point, I have to wonder that if we did, would the current Party leadership know what to do with him (or her)?

re: #89 angst

I agree that the problem with unwanted pregnancies is not a lack of knowledge or a lack of cheap birth control. We have that. That's why I don't get torqued about sex education (or lack thereof).

The real way to get people to become more responsible is give them alternatives to unwanted pregnancy. They need to be motivated enough to see that it's better for them to put off childbearing. That means education and jobs. And, on the disincentive side, limit the perks. Welfare reform did more to decrease unwanted pregnancies than any amount of free birth control ever could.

Young women (and men) need better economic education mixed with sex education. We don't teach the economics of unplanned pregnancy and it's impact on their ability to provide for themselves and their children.

Bidinotto outlined how chaotic and confused Conservatism has become back in December, and had a coherent philosphical basis to offer:

[Link: www.objectivistcenter.org...]

It all goes back to having departed from "Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness". Rights. Reason. Individualism.

Didja see Rahm Emmanuel on ABC this morning? Stepanopoulos asks him about Pelosi's suggestion they use money from the $700b for the car companies. Emmanuel gave a five-minute answer that did not include the words, "Pelosi is a scabrous and ignorant whore", but that was the meaning. Very humorous. (A separate $25b has already been voted for the car companies, how about they spend some of that first, Nancy)

If you ask me, we need to go way, way back to primordial basics: Worship of the Python God.

Disagree with this analysis, and virtually all others.

The burst Housing Bubble, and subsequent meltdown on Wall Street (which impacts Main Street) is why the election was lost.

Add in the "mainstream" media's love affair with Obama.

re: #103 Occasional Reader

Python is for purses.
:D

re: #83 valkyrie

Freedom. Liberty. That's the message we need to promote. Back to the basics.

'Zactly.

It's actually nice to see a fair number of people sharing this view here. I've brought these points up on other "conservative" blogs, which will remain nameless, and have basically been threatened with beheading for my trouble.

re: #100 Sharmuta

Teens never see this. They see the role of Motherhood as calling forth unlimited resources for free. And, they are glorified as young Mothers as well.
Nice way out of having to produce at school or work.

re: #95 JeremyR

too true - the sad thing is the schools don't have their hands full with reading, writing and math! they have their hands full of teaching alternative lifestyle tolerance and racial equity and sex ed and driver's ed and everything else many parents have abdicated to them.

my students know - character formation is the core of their education. If you are a liar, i serve no one by making you a smart liar. if you are a thief, i hurt myself by making you a clever one.

one at a time - and i'm obligated to set the example. Now That's Accountability.

McCain was Obama Lite.

My candidate was the candidate who says that government can't solve the problem, government IS the problem. But that candidate wasn't running this year, so I didn't vote for president.

We should be the party of small government and strict interpretation of the Constitution.

We should be a party open to all races, religions, and sexual orientations that believe the above.

Then we will rule.

I'm sick of the defeatist attitudes. In the words of Penn and Teller, "Bull Shit!". This election went the way it did because people thought it "cool" to elect a black president. A majority of the black military vote was going to BO in the polls. People at work thought it cool. Now that they are paying more attention, they realized what they bought and some literally puke... They elected an idiot community organizing marxist with shady friends and a smooth talking big mouth that is going to get a lot of people in trouble. BO's [Link: www.change.gov...] going down the memory hole is a perfect example. A bunch of high school discourse about the issues, and accordingly F'd up. When BO and the Polish pres crossed wires, it was on the "Agenda" to support missile defense. Polish pres says so, BO summarily embarrasses the sh*t out of him. They now both look like fools and Putin's probably laughing.

Dark days ahead my friends. No time to lick our little baby wounds. Bigger economical / geo-political wounds are coming. If BO doesn't think things through better, these "why'd we looose? whaaa waaa waaa" topics will look silly.

re: #105 wahabicorridor

Python is for purses.
:D

WWPD?

The pendulum has swung in New Zealand. Away from Socialism.

I don't know much about politics in New Zealand, but this sounds like a good thing.

re: #81 Steffan

I read somewhere recently that Ruth Bader Ginsburg gave a speech wherein she said something to the effect that Roe v. Wade was a mistake -- that granting abortion rights by judicial fiat, bypassing the voters, merely hardened opinions on both sides of the issue and kept the argument alive far longer than if they'd settled the issue by an election.

You're right, though, it's a dead horse.

It is a dead horse, and I do think that the anti-abortion people realize that. THe money is best spent changing hearts and minds.

Free first trimester ultrasounds have done what picketing the abortion clinics never could.

While I think O'Rourke's article is generally correct, he made too much of the abortion issue. As long as conservative candidates give lip service to the litmus test of being anti-abortion, does anyone care? Because everyone knows the issue is what it is, it will never be significantly changed. The people have spoken and it's time to move on. Both sides of the aisle need to drop it as an issue.

Even the Council of Catholic Bishops said it was only one of many things to consider when deciding for whom to vote.

this whole notion that social conservatism is the root of the problem makes no sense. Especially when you see that even 1/3 of Obama voters in california voted for prop 8. This election was lost mainly because of the situation with the economy - had that not happened - America would have voted for McCain - just look at the poll numbers before the meltdown and after. Also add onto that the impossible circumstances - the entire establishment in the tank for obama - not doing any investigative reporting on Obama's past. Add onto that the insane amount of cash the obama campaign had to essentially brainwash Americans with 30 minute infomercials - he spent more than giant corporations spend on branding and advertisement. Add onto that 8 years of media's hatred towards Bush. Add onto that John McCain's lack of charisma and lack of ability to communicate key issues. Is it a surprise we lost? But worry not, we will come back

re: #102 itellu3times

Didja see Rahm Emmanuel on ABC this morning? Stepanopoulos asks him about Pelosi's suggestion they use money from the $700b for the car companies. Emmanuel gave a five-minute answer that did not include the words, "Pelosi is a scabrous and ignorant whore", but that was the meaning. Very humorous. (A separate $25b has already been voted for the car companies, how about they spend some of that first, Nancy)

HA! We came up with a new name for The Pelosi last night. Wraithelosi.

re: #47 Sharmuta

And when condoms break, then what?

Speaking from personal experience, some three and a half decades later you wind up with a pretty young woman who plays violin, saxophone, flute, piano, guitar and sings. She supports herself, pays her taxes and bills, saves a few bucks, calls her mother for advice and to see if Mom needs anything (and sometimes to say hi to Dad). She's kind to animals and her friends, cooks well from scratch, but hates cleaning house with a passion some reserve for Nazis.

All in all, not so bad.

Re: schools. We have a neice by marriage who has degrees in special needs ed. She quit teaching and homeschools her son. Why? Because the schools are being told to do social work/remedial parenting - not the 3 Rs, not anything close.

(upstate NY)

Abortion and gay marriage should be state issues. Including either in a national platform only motivates the left to stack the courts and take any local/state issue to the Supreme Court when they lose a local referendum.

If we keep shooting ourselves in the foot (great article, by the way), the left will stack the state and federal courts and every single local/state referendum will be struck down eventually.

Put all the common ground into a platform - small government, strong defense, personal liberty and lower taxes. Pass the remaining issues to the states. It won't be as catchy or empty as "Hope" or "Change," but it will be concise and more effective than the vague ideas like "compassionate conservatism."

re: #109 honestjay

But that candidate wasn't running this year, so I didn't vote for president.

Yeah, you did.

re: #103 Occasional Reader

If you ask me, we need to go way, way back to primordial basics: Worship of the Python God.

Brrr. Pythons give me the shudders. I'd a Minister friend/teacher once who speculated the origins of religious seeking came as a consequence of humans experiencing nightmares. I think that's an interesting idea.

For once I disagree with O'Rourke. This is a bad argument. A government cannot enforce morals because morals change with the times. A government should write laws to encourage ethics and ethical behavior (the ideal), which do not change. A foolish article and a foolish posting.

re: #104 William

The burst Housing Bubble, and subsequent meltdown on Wall Street (which impacts Main Street) is why the election was lost.

That's a symptom, not the disease. Why was it there in the first place? And why was it blamed on Republicans?

re: #97 jemima

I think I probably came in late to this--off dealing with my cake--but when you have the entertainment industry pushing sexuality on the audience and portraying that as a means for young women to be accepted, it's very difficult for young people whose brains have not yet engaged to do anything but act out what the culture is screaming at them to do. Sex & The City did nothing to help our country. The Gossip Girls books were inconceivable 50 years ago. Sure, take responsibility, sure birth control should be cheap and available, but when sex has all the import of a handshake, as a society we have all the depth of water bugs.

Birth control is not going to be cheap and available any time soon any more than the latest antibiotic is cheap. Except somewhere not the US. Birth control come under drug regulations. As tax payers we bear a huge chunk of the development costs and then the American public pays anywhere from 2-100X more than anyone else in the world does for a given drug for a period of 20 years or so. About the time some birth control method is about to lose patent and go generic something "better" comes along and the old becomes unavailable. Birth control is one of the gravy trains of the pharmaceutical industry.

re: #96 bbuddha

If we're lucky maybe we can move conservative to a more libertarian position. the best party would be a melding of republican and libertarian imho

Yeah. The problem is, I used to really like the Libertarian ideology until it got all twisted up in that feather boa thing, and became the party of fruits and nuts. If you think Conservatism has a long row to hoe winning over the electorate and recovering from past mistakes, the Libertarian image problem makes that look like a week on the beach with unlimited umbrella drinks.

Still, I like the Libertarian creed that government should be practically non-existent as far as the citizenry is concerned. It sort of falls apart when time comes for national defense or global projection of power, but perhaps Conservatism could shore up that end.

re: #119 FightingBack

A McCain victory would have been the worse thing that could have happened to the Republican party. Four more years of increased goverment involvement and "bi-partisan" answers.

re: #99 Spiny Norman

At this point, I have to wonder that if we did, would the current Party leadership know what to do with him (or her)?

Excellent point. (Whether or not you like Sarah Palin -- I don't care if you loved her or hated her -- it was an incredibly stupid, stupid decision to have her face an exceptionally hostile media, insist that she do interviews with them, and then, turn around and say, "No, Palin can't be interviewed by Fox News people." what was going on there? Now that was sooo stupid, you've got to wonder about who was making those decisions. Democrats?)

re: #97 jemima

I think I probably came in late to this--off dealing with my cake--but when you have the entertainment industry pushing sexuality on the audience and portraying that as a means for young women to be accepted, it's very difficult for young people whose brains have not yet engaged to do anything but act out what the culture is screaming at them to do. Sex & The City did nothing to help our country. The Gossip Girls books were inconceivable 50 years ago. Sure, take responsibility, sure birth control should be cheap and available, but when sex has all the import of a handshake, as a society we have all the depth of water bugs.

PS - What kind of cake?

re: #114 nbenhaim

this whole notion that social conservatism is the root of the problem makes no sense. Especially when you see that even 1/3 of Obama voters in california voted for prop 8.

Exactly. This election was not decided on morals. NOT AT ALL.

re: #107 FightingBack

I'm not sure teens are ness. thinking of parenthood when they're - ah hem - passionately engaged w/each other.

re: #120 Daisy

Brrr. Pythons give me the shudders. I'd a Minister friend/teacher once who speculated the origins of religious seeking came as a consequence of humans experiencing nightmares. I think that's an interesting idea.

I'm still trying to work out the Pytho-con position on capital gains tax.

On the other hand, I'm quite sure Pytho-cons are in favor of global warming. (Pythons like sunning themselves on rocks.)

This P.J. O'Rourke really doesn't like Southerners does he? Other then that little quirk, I agree with most of his writings.

re: #55 Sharmuta

A lot of people pointed to the ban of gay marriage in California to support their contention that social issues did drive this election and that it's good for the party. If that were true, how to explain the results in South Dakota, a red state, that voted to not ban abortion in their state?

I don't want to see my state dollars paying for abortions. Yet, I'm not saying the state should ban abortions. If someone wants an abortion then they should pay for themselves, not have the procedure paid for by the state. The procedure costs should come out of their pocket, they got pregnant, why should I pay for something they don't want? Does that make sense?

re: #110 Max Darkside

why we lost is an important topic because look who became president because of it.
Personally I dont' think the morality planks in the republican platform are as important as the fact that the media decided early on he was the one. And financially, republicans have become indistinguishable from the democrats. Also it is hard to motivate the republican base to vote for a democrat with an R after his name

re: #87 Spiny Norman

Can you see the massive contradiction in that statement?

The vast majority of Republicans believe Ronald Reagan was a great President, but most Democrats and media pundits beg to differ. Does that make the Republicans delusional, too?

Sarah Palin definitely helped the McCain ticket, just not nearly enough. McCain himself was simply a poor candidate who ran a inept campaign. He's what we get when "moderates" "independents" and "crossover" Democrats voting in open primaries choose the GOP nominee.

Exactly!

re: #104 William

Disagree with this analysis, and virtually all others.

The burst Housing Bubble, and subsequent meltdown on Wall Street (which impacts Main Street) is why the election was lost.

Add in the "mainstream" media's love affair with Obama.

An old truism is that America votes its pocketbook, and the Party in the White House always gets the blame for economic troubles, deserved or not. This year was the same. Too bad we rewarded the crooks who caused the mess by their years of meddling...

re: #35 MandyManners

Does anyone know if dead-beat parents' stimulus checks were sent to their kids?

If they owed any kind of debt to the government -- this would include child support -- they did not receive their stimulus checks. That credit went to service their debt.

I've seen quite a few people who were indignant about that, for some strange reason...

/

Give up our principles?

Isn't that why we LOST this election, because McCain WASNT really enough of a contract between Barry Hussein Obama?

Sorry, I don't agree. It is the essence of "NeoConism" to compromise on social and domestic conservative (Reagan) principles in order to keep up the foreign policy we need.

Look where 8 years of that got us, in the minority, putting up our WEAKEST nominee in decades and losing to what will be the least experienced, most unknown, biggest wildcard president in our history.

We failed because we DIDNT stand on our principles in the primaries, that we didn't nominate Romney, and that Thompson led such a weak campaign.

Compromising on abortion, compromising on socialism (which Bush and McCain did supporting the bailout), compromising on energy and the borders makes us look like Democrat Lite. Democrat Lite will lose to Democrat every time it's tried.

Running as real conservatives WINS every time. That also means IMPLIMENTING conservatism when you do win. Let's face it, we didn't, we lost Congress because our guys went in and did the same damn things the Dems did and got just as corrupt. And it took them 10 years instead of 35.

re: #132 outsidephilly

I don't want to see my state dollars paying for abortions. Yet, I'm not saying the state should ban abortions. If someone wants an abortion then they should pay for themselves, not have the procedure paid for by the state. The procedure costs should come out of their pocket, they got pregnant, why should I pay for something they don't want? Does that make sense?

I do not know of any instance where the state pays for abortion except as part of a state sponsored insurance program. In all other instances either the insurance company that covers the woman in question pays or the individual pays cash.

re: #121 Cobber1

For once I disagree with O'Rourke. This is a bad argument. A government cannot enforce morals because morals change with the times. A government should write laws to encourage ethics and ethical behavior (the ideal), which do not change. A foolish article and a foolish posting.

Not killing your neighbor is a moral standard. So is not taking his car or crashing yours into his house because you drank too much.

re: #121 Cobber1

For once I disagree with O'Rourke. This is a bad argument. A government cannot enforce morals because morals change with the times. A government should write laws to encourage ethics and ethical behavior (the ideal), which do not change. A foolish article and a foolish posting.

Thank you. I'm hitting my internal pause button right now. You make an excellent point when you discern the difference between morals and ethics. I will re-read and contemplate. Again, thanks.

re: #124 SixDegrees

I used to really like the Libertarian ideology until it got all twisted up in that feather boa thing

Blasphemy!

The Boa is a false god!

re: #132 outsidephilly

I don't want to see my state dollars paying for abortions. Yet, I'm not saying the state should ban abortions. If someone wants an abortion then they should pay for themselves, not have the procedure paid for by the state. The procedure costs should come out of their pocket, they got pregnant, why should I pay for something they don't want? Does that make sense?

Not sure how that answered my question, but as a conservative I agree- pay for it yourself.

re: #74 buzzsawmonkey

I am hopeful that Obama's tenure in the Oval Office mirrors the Eddie Murphy film "The Distinguished Gentleman."

In that film, a con-man with the same name as the longtime Congressman from his district decides to run for the office simply because he realizes that there are a lot of perks that he and his cronies can get fat on. While in office he realizes that there are serious issues which need his attention, and what started out as a way to feed at the public trough becomes a conscience-driven tenure.

That's what I'm hoping. When BHO gets reality briefings, he's going to see that America really wasn't "bad" for making decisions that had to be made. The guy was operating in a vacuum in the Senate. Clinging to his emotional pie in the sky idea of what should be. I think in the next few months he's going to get a dose of reality he could have never imagined.

...and why is it the public education system can't be returned to the states? Get rid of all the federal administrative fund suckers and the states might be able to afford it?

re: #114 nbenhaim

this whole notion that social conservatism is the root of the problem makes no sense. Especially when you see that even 1/3 of Obama voters in california voted for prop 8.

I have not pored through the poll numbers, but I am inclined to agree with you. I saw little yelling and screaming about, say, abortion in this election campaign. Economy and "the war".

"We consider people to be assets"
too-shay!

re: #102 itellu3times

Didja see Rahm Emmanuel on ABC this morning? Stepanopoulos asks him about Pelosi's suggestion they use money from the $700b for the car companies. Emmanuel gave a five-minute answer that did not include the words, "Pelosi is a scabrous and ignorant whore", but that was the meaning. Very humorous. (A separate $25b has already been voted for the car companies, how about they spend some of that first, Nancy)

hahahahhahahhahahahahahaahah

I have no problem with this as long as we hold to the last paragraph:

refuse to spend taxpayers’ money on killing, circumscribe the timing and method of taking a human life, make sure parental consent is obtained when underage girls are involved, and tar and feather teenage boys and run them out of town on a rail.

re: #118 lennysquiggy

Abortion and gay marriage should be state issues.

Actually, they should be moral issues, period, and should not become the purview of government at any level. I'm perfectly capable of making my own moral choices without the government forcing someone else's - or even my own - on me without recourse.

re: #126 J.S.

what was going on there? Now that was sooo stupid, you've got to wonder about who was making those decisions. Democrats?)

I think what was going on is the dawning of a culture war w/in the Republican party - the 'moderates' vs. the 'conservatives'. The moderates are fairly convinced that the 'neo-con' has hurt the Republican brand and Sarah sure looks like a neo-con.

re: #121 Cobber1

A foolish article and a foolish posting.

You're entitled to your opinion Mr. Nine comments.

/but insulting your host isn't very wise, just a friendly word of advice

re: #130 Occasional Reader

"I'm still trying to work out the Pytho-con position on capital gains tax."

I know just what you mean; they're hissing, but are they booing? Those pythons are confusing fellows - not the Monty kind, the rock sunning kind.

re: #138 galloping granny

I do not know of any instance where the state pays for abortion except as part of a state sponsored insurance program. In all other instances either the insurance company that covers the woman in question pays or the individual pays cash.

Oh, I thought when a girl goes to Planned Parent-something or other for an abortion the procedure's costs are little to none.

re: #125 honestjay

So you did "Vote."

re: #49 Luigi

Regarding abortion, my understanding is that Sarah Palin's opposition to Roe is that the federal government/judiciary is in no position to judge the issue, and it should be addressed only on a more local level -- state, country, etc. If I have her position right, then I am totally in agreement with her. If it is on a local level then an individual can actually do something about it. They can either campaign to get the local law changed, or pack up and move to the next county. What gives some judge the right to decide what is ultimately an issue of personal conscience?

Why should an American citizen have to move to another state in order to secure a civil right?

re: #142 Sharmuta

Not sure how that answered my question, but as a conservative I agree- pay for it yourself.

Yes. The government (federal and/or state) should be neutral on this and not use tax-payer's money to fund abortions. I feel the same way about using tax-payer's money for public radio and the arts too. Just don't believe that's their role.

re: #147 rawmuse

"We consider people to be assets"
too-shay!

And on THAT part, I totally agree with P.J. Drill down into virtually any liberal-defined "problem", and at its root, the problem is those inconvenient, pesky people, who don't behave the way they're supposed to.

re: #129 Daisy

The girls are always thinking of it.

re: #142 Sharmuta

Not sure how that answered my question, but as a conservative I agree- pay for it yourself.

my post wasn't so much to answer you - it was a thought I got after reading your words

re: #132 outsidephilly

I don't want to see my state dollars paying for abortions. Yet, I'm not saying the state should ban abortions. If someone wants an abortion then they should pay for themselves, not have the procedure paid for by the state. The procedure costs should come out of their pocket, they got pregnant, why should I pay for something they don't want? Does that make sense?

Yes, this makes perfect sense, and dovetails exactly with what I've been saying here - the government should keep it's nose out of people's personal business. Which means they shouldn't be paying for people's personal business, either.

No. I did NOT vote for president.

As far as the presidential race was concerned, I didn't leave the Republican party. It left me.

re: #38 wahabicorridor

YES! my stepson and wife adopted a baby from Guatemala in 2006. Why the HELL did they have to go there? Do you want to hear the horror stories about what it's like here? My daughter-in-law practically had to be medicated, the stress was so overwhelming.

And ANOTHER thing. It's no secret that the African American community does everything it can to prevent inter-racial adoption. That crap has to stop.

David Weber (of Honor Harrington fame) adopted two little girls from Cambodia. The bureaucratic hoops he had to jump through were nearly enough to incite him to bureaucraticide. During all this, Angelina Jolie waltzes in to the country, bypasses all the red tape because of her celebrity status, and adopts a kid.

Weber and his wife finally managed to bring their girls home, but he loathes Angelina Jolie like you wouldn't believe.

re: #153 Daisy

"I'm still trying to work out the Pytho-con position on capital gains tax."

I know just what you mean; they're hissing, but are they booing? Those pythons are confusing fellows - not the Monty kind, the rock sunning kind.

Needless to say, we Pytho-cons have already heavily influenced War on Terror military doctrine.

re: #137 wildcat84

Taking a principled stand yet demanding an unobtainable goal to assert your principle is just folly.

We do not need to be less pro-life, but we do need to be realistic in how we can go about reducing abortions. Look at Rudy- he was pro-choice, yet reduced the numbers of abortions in NYC. So what is more principled? Clinging to a plank we'll never achieve or actually saving the lives of babies?

re: #145 hermit

...and why is it the public education system can't be returned to the states? Get rid of all the federal administrative fund suckers and the states might be able to afford it?

Dingdingding!

One question for ya: who created the Department of Education?

Why, that master of disaster himself, Jimmy Carter.

See what I mean?

Fannie/Freddie was the deviously crafted October surprise.

What will increase the states authority over me? What will decrease it?

Am I to live free, or in bondage?

re: #161 obageegee

What?

re: #129 Daisy

I'm not sure teens are ness. thinking of parenthood when they're - ah hem - passionately engaged w/each other.

That is why you have to make sure that the information is firmly ingrained and perhaps they make sure not to end up in that position. It worked for me. the HS I went to showed a film of natural childbirth in the sex ed class. It kept me celibate into college. Obviously that same thing won't work for all. But the more info they have going in the better off they are

re: #162 SixDegrees

Yes, this makes perfect sense, and dovetails exactly with what I've been saying here - the government should keep it's nose out of people's personal business. Which means they shouldn't be paying for people's personal business, either.

Thus if someone wants an abortion, then go to the place that does them and get one there, then pay for it yourself! Don't be using my tax dollars for pay for it . . .

re: #122 Occasional Reader

That's a symptom, not the disease. Why was it there in the first place? And why was it blamed on Republicans?

The second sentence of my post indirectly answered these questions.

The public was not told why by the "mainstream" media.

And why did the "mainstream" media blame it on Republicans?  Is that a trick question?  :-)

re: #3 Spiny Norman

They keep on running the same single issue candidates over and over. It's the biggest recycling project in the state.

re: #140 Daisy

Thank you. I'm hitting my internal pause button right now. You make an excellent point when you discern the difference between morals and ethics. I will re-read and contemplate. Again, thanks.

Moral and ethical mean essentially the same thing. they are synonyms. moral implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong ,the basic moral values of a community. ethical may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity

re: #146 Occasional Reader

I have not pored through the poll numbers, but I am inclined to agree with you. I saw little yelling and screaming about, say, abortion in this election campaign. Economy and "the war".

South Dakota, a red state, defeated the ballot initiative to ban abortion.

re: #139 JeremyR

Not killing your neighbor is a moral standard. So is not taking his car or crashing yours into his house because you drank too much.

These are standards of behavior, whether you hang a moral tag on them or not makes no difference.

re: #154 outsidephilly

Oh, I thought when a girl goes to Planned Parent-something or other for an abortion the procedure's costs are little to none.

Not the case at all. If the young woman is covered by insurance then insurance pays just like they would at any other facility for any other medical procedure. That applies whether the insurance is Blue Cross or Medicaid. If the young woman has no insurance then the young woman pays cash. Planned Parenthood has some sort of a sliding scale fee, but there is a cost. Other abortion facilities may or may not have a variable fee. Most that I know of other than Planned Parenthood do not - flat fee only.

re: #156 Salamantis

Why should an American citizen have to move to another state in order to secure a civil right?

Your question of course rests on a certain... assumption.

re: #100 Sharmuta

Young women (and men) need better economic education mixed with sex education. We don't teach the economics of unplanned pregnancy and it's impact on their ability to provide for themselves and their children.

I agree about the economics education. The problem being that if people don't think their lives are going to get better, anyway, then why not have the one source of joy that most people ultimately want?

Young people need to be able to actually visualize a better life. Improve their economic opportunities and the rest will follow They know how not to have babies- they just need to be motivated to put it off.

Is the teen pregnancy at historical lows because of sex ed? Who knows? So much of it is abstinence-only and not very effective. It may be because there are jobs (or there were- the next couple of years will be very interesting regarding pregnancy rates).

So I am supposed to allow murder to go on albeit regulated because people want it. That's like telling the Nazis that we can avoid all this war nastiness if they would just kill 2 million Jews instead of 6 million. You cannot rationalize your way out of evil by compromising with it. I'm sorry, PJ, but if conservatives do not stand on this issue they will lose the moral authority to lead and it will verify the arguement that raw power determines what is right and what is wrong.

re: #74 buzzsawmonkey

hmmm...well, I'd say, dream on...(like The Zero going to confront reality? I suspect the answer is: "Never!") btw, did you hear about The Zero's take on the Missile Shield going up in Poland? An adviser of obama came out and said The Zero is not willing to finalize the deal (in other words, the deal's toast.) Then, when there were teeny ripples of dissent, another of Zero's advisers came out to "elaborate" -- saying (this to "correct" Adviser Number One's "errors"), that it's not that The Zero has qualms about a Missile Defense Shield in Poland proceeding, it's just that The Zero has "concerns" about the workability of the technology...and, and, and, when the bugs in the technology are all ironed out, then maybe The Zero might support it...but, ya know, it's all contingent...Now, that's how The Zero will be "dealing with realities" -- that's sending out his advisers...multiple ones...saying multiple things...Yeah, Decision making at its finest!

re: #144 buzzsawmonkey

I wish I could ding this comment a million times.

re: #145 hermit

...and why is it the public education system can't be returned to the states? Get rid of all the federal administrative fund suckers and the states might be able to afford it?

Return it to local control and keep the state and feral bugs out. Parents elect a board who hire teachers. If the parents are unhappy they elect a new board who hires diffrent teachers. No tenure.

re: #124 SixDegrees

Still, I like the Libertarian creed that government should be practically non-existent as far as the citizenry is concerned. It sort of falls apart when time comes for national defense or global projection of power, but perhaps Conservatism could shore up that end.

I think that the role of the government is the issue, and if it should be there to protect us, then national defense is its pure role.

re: #159 FightingBack

The girls are always thinking of it.

Do you have some kind of device that divulges what people, or at any rate girls, are thinking during sex? Wow.

re: #170 Occasional Reader

Probably a bad analogy.

re: #183 Sharmuta

I wish I could ding this comment a million times.

"I'll ding you a million times!". as Uncle Milty almost said.

re: #177 Wishing

These are standards of behavior, whether you hang a moral tag on them or not makes no difference.

I'm just going by the definition at Websters.

Excellent article. The next four years are going to be tough. We blew it by trying to legislate our morality; the dems are going to succeed in legislating theirs. Gents, we did blow it and our chickens are coming home to roost.

re: #178 galloping granny

Not the case at all. If the young woman is covered by insurance then insurance pays just like they would at any other facility for any other medical procedure. That applies whether the insurance is Blue Cross or Medicaid. If the young woman has no insurance then the young woman pays cash. Planned Parenthood has some sort of a sliding scale fee, but there is a cost. Other abortion facilities may or may not have a variable fee. Most that I know of other than Planned Parenthood do not - flat fee only.

So who makes up the difference for Planned Parenthood's sliding scale fee for abortions?

re: #161 obageegee

I am not going to tolerate language like that at LGF.

re: #55 Sharmuta

A lot of people pointed to the ban of gay marriage in California to support their contention that social issues did drive this election and that it's good for the party. If that were true, how to explain the results in South Dakota, a red state, that voted to not ban abortion in their state?

It's been pointed out that Prop 8 passed because the bulk of the black and Hispanic voters who turned out for The One also voted for it. White voters in Santa Monica and Beverly Hills generally voted against it. Voters of any race in West Hollywood tried to bury it.

Socially, blacks and Hispanics are a lot more conservative than the Dems like to admit...

re: #175 JeremyR

Moral and ethical mean essentially the same thing. they are synonyms. moral implies conformity to established sanctioned codes or accepted notions of right and wrong ,the basic moral values of a community. ethical may suggest the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness, fairness, or equity

No, they do not. Thus it is entirely possible to follow your moral code and thus violate in a huge way the code of ethics of your profession, especially in medicine and law.

#137:

There should be no compromise of principles, but I think the Federal government is not where the focus of social conservative principles should be.

If the GOP continues to push a social conservative agenda from the top down, it will be effective in winning national elections whenever we have a strong conservative candidate. However, the left is going to continue to work from the ground up - ACORN, Fannie/Freddie, the Secretary of State project, etc.

Although I think McCain was a weak candidate, look at '00 and '04 - the left's grassroots efforts nearly defeated GWB twice. It's going to get worse unless we streamline the national platform and motivate people to fight for social/fiscal issues at the local/state levels.

re: #164 Steffan

adopted two little girls from Cambodia. The bureaucratic hoops he had to jump through were nearly enough to incite him to bureaucraticide.

Well, when I referred to the 'horror stories HERE' I mean the U.S. Guatemala was fairly painless. Altho, no longer. The Guatemala people started feeling as tho they were a baby factory for U.S. couples and tightened things up. There was also some evidence that women were getting pregnant just to give the baby up for adoption to the Americans - the get tens of thousands of dollars and good pre-natal.

But you're right about Jolie (and Madonna) - My DIL wants to cut their hearts out.

re: #171 bbuddha

I'm glad that worked for you :). Curious. Did you read the comment I was responding to?

re: #172 outsidephilly

Thus if someone wants an abortion, then go to the place that does them and get one there, then pay for it yourself! Don't be using my tax dollars for pay for it . . .

If you're saying, or hoping, that abortions will be blocked by government fiat in some areas and not in others, I can only disagree. Government at all levels should not involved in this decision at all, period.

Note that this also means that government shouldn't be paying for it at any level, either, in my view.

re: #190 Jetpilot1101

We blew it by trying to legislate our morality

Frankly, I just don't see that.

Where/when did Bush try to legislate "conservative" morality?

To what extent where McCain/Palin promising to do so?

"Nobody's business" is a thorny issue. Let's be real conservatives and say that what Muslims do to other Muslims in a country far away is none of our business.

re: #182 J.S.

hmmm...well, I'd say, dream on...(like The Zero going to confront reality? I suspect the answer is: "Never!") btw, did you hear about The Zero's take on the Missile Shield going up in Poland? An adviser of obama came out and said The Zero is not willing to finalize the deal (in other words, the deal's toast.) Then, when there were teeny ripples of dissent, another of Zero's advisers came out to "elaborate" -- saying (this to "correct" Adviser Number One's "errors"), that it's not that The Zero has qualms about a Missile Defense Shield in Poland proceeding, it's just that The Zero has "concerns" about the workability of the technology...and, and, and, when the bugs in the technology are all ironed out, then maybe The Zero might support it...but, ya know, it's all contingent...Now, that's how The Zero will be "dealing with realities" -- that's sending out his advisers...multiple ones...saying multiple things...Yeah, Decision making at its finest!

as the old saying goes...if you can't dazzle em with briliance, baffle them with bullshit...goin to see alot of that real soon.

re: #132 outsidephilly

I don't want to see my state dollars paying for abortions. Yet, I'm not saying the state should ban abortions. If someone wants an abortion then they should pay for themselves, not have the procedure paid for by the state. The procedure costs should come out of their pocket, they got pregnant, why should I pay for something they don't want? Does that make sense?

That is the idiocy of Roe v Wade.

Time for everyone to go rent "Doctor Zhivago", not for the revolutionary view, but what can happen to a society in a short time.

I spend most of my time in economics. The machine is grinding to a halt. The problems are compounding. International high seas shipments are stopping. You think mortgage defaults have been bad, you have not seen the rising unemployment hit that yet. Millions of American consumers' credit card limits are being cut, across the board, by 70-90% killing spending ability. 2 more banks failed this weekend. I could go on. We are in serious trouble.

These arguments, I'm afraid, are as meaningful as wondering how/why the "passenger committee chairman" got appointed Captain of the Titanic.

Have a great day knowing an idiot is at the helm.

The bottom line is; For the just person no law is necessary, for the unjust person, no law will suffice.

re: #193 Steffan

It's been pointed out that Prop 8 passed because the bulk of the black and Hispanic voters who turned out for The One also voted for it. White voters in Santa Monica and Beverly Hills generally voted against it. Voters of any race in West Hollywood tried to bury it.

Socially, blacks and Hispanics are a lot more conservative than the Dems like to admit...

That's quite true. When polled on issues alone, more Americans come out on the conservative side of the spectrum. So this leads to the question- what is it that's leading these folks to vote against their own values?

Keep in mind the recent Pew survey that showed most Americans want religion kept out of politics...

re: #184 JeremyR

Return it to local control and keep the state and feral bugs out. Parents elect a board who hire teachers. If the parents are unhappy they elect a new board who hires diffrent teachers. No tenure.

Tenure and the existence of a degree in "education" that somehow qualifies one to teach are the two biggest things wrong with our education system.

If you really want to make a difference in the 2010 congressional election, start donating to the RNC now. A little each month will not be noticed by you and will make a big difference.

And get others to do the same.

Hre: #182 J.S.

hmmm...well, I'd say, dream on...(like The Zero going to confront reality? I suspect the answer is: "Never!") btw, did you hear about The Zero's take on the Missile Shield going up in Poland? An adviser of obama came out and said The Zero is not willing to finalize the deal (in other words, the deal's toast.) Then, when there were teeny ripples of dissent, another of Zero's advisers came out to "elaborate" -- saying (this to "correct" Adviser Number One's "errors"), that it's not that The Zero has qualms about a Missile Defense Shield in Poland proceeding, it's just that The Zero has "concerns" about the workability of the technology...and, and, and, when the bugs in the technology are all ironed out, then maybe The Zero might support it...but, ya know, it's all contingent...Now, that's how The Zero will be "dealing with realities" -- that's sending out his advisers...multiple ones...saying multiple things...Yeah, Decision making at its finest!

For the left-loons any defensive posture or action that we take is too provocative for them.

They set the standard for SDI to absolute and total perfection so that they will never have to approve of it, knowing that nothing is ever going to reach that standard.

Ya know, I grew up in a time when abortions happened, nobody really talked about it much. The girl would go away for a bit, either the girl would go full term then place the baby in adoption or maybe the girl had an abortion. All of this was done at the expense of the family not the government.

re: #144 buzzsawmonkey
(here's a tip: the Bible does not bother forbidding unnatural behavior)

Not sure where this comes from? Thou shalt not...is pretty much forbidding unnatural behavior.

#150 SixDegrees:

I don't think you're ever going to get the government out of social issues entirely, but conservatives (social and fiscal) should stand up for a smaller federal government.

re: #203 Max Darkside

International high seas shipments are stopping.

I stumbled on the Baltic Dry Index awhile back and have been watching it. Terrifying.

re: #144 buzzsawmonkey

Yay! Hear! Hear!

I would have this tattooed on my forehead, if I approved of tattoos. Which I don't. But that's just me.

re: #165 Occasional Reader

Needless to say, we Pytho-cons have already heavily influenced War on Terror military doctrine.

LOL! Now would you mind telling your relatives to get the heck out of Florida and go back to where you belong? Not that I want to insult war heroes or anything - just leave Florida, is all. And bring the Monitor Lizards with you - not the ones from LGF -- oh geeze -- I hope the less than well informed leave this comment alone. :)

re: #191 outsidephilly

So who makes up the difference for Planned Parenthood's sliding scale fee for abortions?

Not the tax payer. PP is not allowed to use federal funds to provide abortion. PP is a "charitable organization" so I would think donations of the same sort as the Red Cross uses.

re: #194 galloping granny

No, they do not. Thus it is entirely possible to follow your moral code and thus violate in a huge way the code of ethics of your profession, especially in medicine and law.

That's right. Morality is more of a code of personal conduct, often based in religion. Ethics are more generally applicable to larger groups of people and govern public behavior. Almost a meta-morality, as it were. Which is not to say they don't overlap quite a bit. Morality can shape ethics but it is seldom the other way around.

re: #184 JeremyR

really, though, Jeremy - why can't we fight for this?
public school children are being anesthetized through a federal program IV... that's how the America-haters are getting them to atrophy intellectually-- By raising a generation or two who won't question, can't debate cogently and have no way of determining true liberty because everyone should just be allowed to do their own thing, 'cause that's fair.

Unplug the schools from the matrix!

Social engineering is at the root of all this conflict, imho.

Gay marriage is based on the premise that gays want to live under the same social contract that straights do. Where does that contract exist? In the tax codes and in some (but not all) state laws. Why are those laws and tax codes there in the first place? Social engineering.

Abortion, as it exists today, is (at least in part) funded by US taxpayers.
More social engineering.

Get rid of top-down social engineering. Get rid of tax breaks dependent on marital status, tax breaks for mortgage interest, et al, and the problems dissolve before our very eyes.

I think we should keep tax breaks for dependents, but some would even get rid of those.

The federal tax code. An abomination, and about to get worse.

re: #205 Sharmuta

Keep in mind the recent Pew survey that showed most Americans want religion kept out of politics...

Ironic that this would be the result of a Pew survey...

I'm absolutely anti-abortion, no matter what. Abortion by demand, however, IS the law of the land. I believe that will not change in our lifetime. It is up to Congress to change things back to making abortion a states-rights issue, as it should be. They won't do it, no matter what party is in the majority, as we've seen. The Feds love having the power, and that is one power they will never relinquish.

O'Roarke is right. Deal with the fact that abortion is legal, no matter how wrong the law is. Move on to other matters that Conservatives CAN do something about. Pick your battles wisely, fight them with facts, win them with support and legislation. Abortion is not one of those fights anymore.

re: #199 Occasional Reader

Frankly, I just don't see that.

Where/when did Bush try to legislate "conservative" morality?

To what extent where McCain/Palin promising to do so?

Didn't you see McCains big creationism speech, or how he talked over and over about the need for an abortion ammendment?
/

The bottom line on the abortion issue is that it should be a state issue not ruled on by the federal level. I find abortion an abhorrent act of violence that has reached sacramental status to the left but the real issue is that these battles should be fought in the state legislatures and not given support by some Executive Order by a president who never met an abortion that he didn't love and by a president that supported infanticide.

re: #144 buzzsawmonkey

No matter how it is tricked out as "science," creationism at best bears the same relationship to science as a drag queen bears to a real woman. Sticking creationism into science class does not "put God back in the schools"; it merely takes science out of them--and, frankly, learning the creation story of Genesis does little by itself to give children a sense of God or morality. If people want their children to learn religion and deportment based upon religious belief, there is no shortage of houses of worship where they can find this. It is the task of these houses of worship to make the need for such learning more obvious to the people.

You are my main monkey! Excellent!

re: #212 wahabicorridor

I stumbled on the Baltic Dry Index awhile back and have been watching it. Terrifying.

Exactly. WATCH THAT (DRYS). We are toast. The CEO of DRYS said companies cannot get letters of credit (payment guarantees) to ship products. They banks won't do it. Product doesn't ship. Perishable? It rots on the docks. Have a nice day.

re: #198 SixDegrees

If you're saying, or hoping, that abortions will be blocked by government fiat in some areas and not in others, I can only disagree. Government at all levels should not involved in this decision at all, period.

Note that this also means that government shouldn't be paying for it at any level, either, in my view.

The government needn't be involved . . . . , if ya want an abortion, go the the doctor/facility that aborts babies! And pay for it yourself. And why should the government decide medical issues? Which is what abortion is, its a procedure done by the medical professionals not the legislators

re: #206 galloping granny

hey granny, please play nicely. I have a degree in education and I am proud of it because it's not a BA, it's a BS (yeah, i know, hahahaha). Teaching is a science.

re: #194 galloping granny

No, they do not. Thus it is entirely possible to follow your moral code and thus violate in a huge way the code of ethics of your profession, especially in medicine and law.

d: sanctioned by or operative on one's conscience or ethical judgment
Webster uses ethical to define moral and moral to define ethical.
The nuances are ever so slight.

re: #208 Syrah

Exactly. The Zero will use his advisers to achieve his results -- it's just that the whole process will be slippery and slimy...by ducking and dodging and not telling the truth. We'll all be provided object lessons in how to govern via dishonesty.

re: #218 rawmuse

Social engineering is at the root of all this conflict, imho.

Of course, to some degree, ALL law is a kind of social engineering. "Thou shalt not kill" is social engineering.

re: #206 galloping granny

Tenure and the existence of a degree in "education" that somehow qualifies one to teach are the two biggest things wrong with our education system.

I agree. My kids went to a private school. the best teachers they had did not have degrees in education.

re: #215 galloping granny

Not the tax payer. PP is not allowed to use federal funds to provide abortion. PP is a "charitable organization" so I would think donations of the same sort as the Red Cross uses.

Wow, didn't know all of that . . . , thanks for spurring me to find out more about Planned Parenthood's 'charitable contributors'
I'm so glad we cross threads today!

re: #229 Occasional Reader

Of course, to some degree, ALL law is a kind of social engineering. "Thou shalt not kill" is social engineering.

"Thou shall not do Murder"
Big difference.

re: #204 JeremyR

The bottom line is; For the just person no law is necessary, for the unjust person, no law will suffice.

re: #34 Wishing

I think, and I may be wrong, that for a republic to actually work, the people must agree on some general standards of behavior, to a man. In the case of the early USA, I think those general standards were encapsulated in the Ten Commandments.

Over time, we have shifted from those, as a country. I am not making a statement of good or bad, just fact. Until we can determine what our *general standards* of behavior are in this modern world, we will flounder a bit.

When the definitions of the words are morphing, it is impossible to have a cogent debate.

re: #224 Max Darkside

Exactly. WATCH THAT (DRYS). We are toast. The CEO of DRYS said companies cannot get letters of credit (payment guarantees) to ship products. They banks won't do it. Product doesn't ship. Perishable? It rots on the docks. Have a nice day.

There's another issue very few people caught about shipping. Bunker fuel will no longer be allowed - they have to use more refined product - more $$$

re: #8 Steffan

I'm not ready to make nice...

re: #121 Cobber1

You come into Charles house and criticize the furniture - way to go!

Parental consent for minors must always include a provision that allows the denial of that consent to be overridden by the courts.

There was a 14 year old girl who lived with her drunken father in the sticks surrounding my city (her mother was long gone). She was repeatedly raped by him, became pregnant, and went to her school nurse when she missed a period. Her father was charged with sexual molestation of a minor and jailed. From jail, he refused to grant consent for an abortion, maintaining that the pregnancy was God's punishment and retribution for 'their' sin. A child advocate helped her to appeal to the court, and they granted her permission to undergo the procedure. But her father refused to pay for it, and she had no money of her own, so I and a friend, who had heard of the case and were horrified by the whole thing, contacted a local clinic and split the cost. But what if we or someone like us had not been there? In such very narrow circumstances, where criminality by the parent is involved, I can morally justify the state picking up the tab.

re: #116 razorbacker

Speaking from personal experience, some three and a half decades later you wind up with a pretty young woman who plays violin, saxophone, flute, piano, guitar and sings. She supports herself, pays her taxes and bills, saves a few bucks, calls her mother for advice and to see if Mom needs anything (and sometimes to say hi to Dad). She's kind to animals and her friends, cooks well from scratch, but hates cleaning house with a passion some reserve for Nazis.

All in all, not so bad.

You're not going to get an argument from me about this. Because my mother chose adoption, I have a wonderful brother and niece in my life.

re: #211 lennysquiggy

#150 SixDegrees:

I don't think you're ever going to get the government out of social issues entirely, but conservatives (social and fiscal) should stand up for a smaller federal government.

I agree, but at the moment it looks like many are on the big government bandwagon. They may wake up with a horrible hangover in a few years and again be receptive to the limited goverement message. we just have to be sure that we can deliver that message on the Rep. side if and when they do.

re: #209 outsidephilly

Ya know, I grew up in a time when abortions happened, nobody really talked about it much. The girl would go away for a bit, either the girl would go full term then place the baby in adoption or maybe the girl had an abortion. All of this was done at the expense of the family not the government.

Sadly, the government has become the family for many.

gotta hop lizards - have a good day!

The Jets are up 40-0 on the Rams. At halftime.

re: #6 Spiny Norman

Mary Jo Kopechne was unavailable for comment.

re: #234 wahabicorridor

There's another issue very few people caught about shipping. Bunker fuel will no longer be allowed - they have to use more refined product - more $$$

Didn't realize that. Doesn't surprise me.

re: #230 JeremyR

I agree. My kids went to a private school. the best teachers they had did not have degrees in education.

some of my best colleagues also have no education degrees - they have taught me plenty about this profession. a degree doesn't MAKE a good teacher, but if those conferring the degree are accountable for it - like medical degrees - then it CAN make a good teacher even better.

the education system should be brought up to the standards of the medical profession and here they are trying to do it the other way! pleh, pleh *spit*

re: #197 Daisy

I'm glad that worked for you :). Curious. Did you read the comment I was responding to?

Yep, my point was that you have to get them thinking beforehand. you are right about any thinking happening "during" Not going to happen at that point

re: #144 buzzsawmonkey

The "social conservative agenda" is based on three things: abortion, gay rights (particularly the marriage issue), and creationism. On all three of these things conservatives have been shooting themselves in the foot.

(snip)

It is the task of these houses of worship to make the need for such learning more obvious to the people.

These are not the planks of social conservatism. These are the planks that have been instituted by the evangelical right that happen to be social in nature. I believe there to be a difference.

I and many of my fellow believers are social conservatives and abortion and creationism just don't apply. Gay marriage is on the table because the average American has stated repeadily they do not want it. But elements within the government continue to try and pass legislation for it.

Social conservatism do not blindly oppose progress, but we don't believe in change merely for social experimentation. On the other hand, a liberal will tend to believe the world can and will be changed through government forces in what Franklin Roosevelt called "bold persistent experimentation".

OT:
Today in the philly area the sun is shinning BRIGHT! First sunny day since election day!

re: #232 rawmuse

"Thou shall not do Murder"
Big difference.

Still, social engineering. At the most basic level, yes.

re: #215 galloping granny

Not the tax payer. PP is not allowed to use federal funds to provide abortion. PP is a "charitable organization" so I would think donations of the same sort as the Red Cross uses.

Planned Parenthood does get Fed dollars. They may not be allowed to fund abortions, but who's keeping track?

May 13, 2008 – Planned Parenthood receives more than $300 million each year from the federal government and state governments for its “family planning” activities. Planned Parenthood’s annual report says it has a nearly $1 billion budget and gets one-third of that money from government grants and contracts.

Planned Parenthood, however, is also the largest killer of unborn babies through abortion in the nation. By its own admission, Planned Parenthood exterminated more than a quarter million babies last year! In addition, various affiliates of Planned Parenthood are under investigation for numerous illegal activities.

In Kansas, District Attorney Phill Kline has filed 107 charges against a Johnson County Planned Parenthood clinic. The charges range from falsifying records, hiding statutory rapes of underage girls, and performing illegal late-term abortions.

re: #226 hermit

hey granny, please play nicely. I have a degree in education and I am proud of it because it's not a BA, it's a BS (yeah, i know, hahahaha). Teaching is a science.

I am playing nicely. I hope you also have a degree in something else. I happen to have graduated from a college that has one of the oldest schools of education in the country. Their graduates know every way under the sun to teach something. Unfortunately, the vast majority know virtually nothing to teach - especially at the elementary level.

re: #57 Wishing

If you'll recall, in '94, Liberals were conservative (they wanted to keep the status quo) and Conservatives were liberal (they wanted Change!).

Labels, as such, really don't mean anything anymore. Orwell was right.

In certain kinds of writing, particularly in art criticism and literary criticism, it is normal to come across long passages which are almost completely lacking in meaning. Words like ROMANTIC, PLASTIC, VALUES, HUMAN, DEAD, SENTIMENTAL, NATURAL, VITALITY, as used in art criticism, are strictly meaningless, in the sense that they not only do not point to any discoverable object, but are hardly even expected to do so by the reader. When one critic writes, "The outstanding feature of Mr. X's work is its living quality," while another writes, "The immediately striking thing about Mr. X's work is its peculiar deadness," the reader accepts this as a simple difference of opinion If words like BLACK and WHITE were involved, instead of the jargon words DEAD and LIVING, he would see at once that language was being used in an improper way.

Many political words are similarly abused. The word FASCISM has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies "something not desirable." The words DEMOCRACY, SOCIALISM, FREEDOM, PATRIOTIC, REALISTIC, JUSTICE, have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like DEMOCRACY, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted from all sides. It is almost universally felt that when we call a country democratic we are praising it: consequently the defenders of every kind of régime claim that it is a democracy, and fear that they might have to stop using the word if it were tied down to any one meaning. Words of this kind are often used in a consciously dishonest way. That is, the person who uses them has his own
private definition, but allows his hearer to think he means something quite different. Statements like MARSHAL PÉTAIN WAS A TRUE PATRIOT, THE SOVIET PRESS IS THE FREEST IN THE WORLD, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS OPPOSED TO PERSECUTION, are almost always made with intent to deceive. Other words used in variable meanings, in most cases more or less dishonestly, are: CLASS, TOTALITARIAN, SCIENCE, PROGRESSIVE, REACTIONARY BOURGEOIS, EQUALITY.

Even more true now than when he wrote it. Maybe he was prescient and knew that The One would be running for office?

I just scanned the article. I can't read it too closely because it fills me with hopelessness. And if we don't have hope, we might as well all just give up and drink the kool-aid. Or take P.J.'s advice and run a garden hose into our car from the tailpipe.

I just cannot believe that 52% of the American people have truly embraced socialism, collectivism, Marxism, whatever. There were MANY factors at work in this election ... Bush-hatred, "war-weariness," economic fears, Obama's unchecked fundraising, voter fraud, the cheerleading media, McCain's less-than-vigorous campaign, Obama's America-idol cult of personality, and sheer ignorance as to who Obama is and what he stands for. I've read of people who've asked others why they voted for Obama and received amazingly clueless answers. I have no doubt that millions of people voted for Obama simply because he was on the Democratic ticket. They are in for a rude awakening.

Make no mistake, we're in trouble, serious trouble. But I don't believe conservatism is dead. We need short- and long-term strategies. The short-term strategy is to focus on getting our message into the blue counties within states, particularly the swing states ... make sure that they're not hearing "Obama Obama" 24/7. Win voters in those areas. McCain won Missouri by just 6,000 votes! Work in the short term to win Congress in 2010 and the White House in 2012.

The long term effort, of course, must focus on education and the media. Yes, I know there are many, many obstacles toward getting back some measure of influence in these areas. But if we don't think in terms of "winning them back," but rather restoring some measure of balance, maybe the task won't be so huge. We just need to ensure that the conservative voice is heard and criticism of the Left gets out to the public. Yes, yes, yes, I KNOW ... the Left will fight this effort tooth and nail in very ugly ways. But if there are things in life worth dying for, there are things in life worth getting smeared and sued for, too.

All I know is that I have to keep fighting. I can feel the walls closing in around me already, cutting off the oxygen and the light. I have to break them down. I have to have the light of freedom, of reason and rationality, of free speech, of economic opportunity. I have to have it for myself and my nieces and nephews and their children. I have to. I can't live without it.

re: #228 J.S.

Exactly. The Zero will use his advisers to achieve his results -- it's just that the whole process will be slippery and slimy...by ducking and dodging and not telling the truth. We'll all be provided object lessons in how to govern via dishonesty.

Putin will be Zero's biggest fan.

re: #231 outsidephilly

Wow, didn't know all of that . . . , thanks for spurring me to find out more about Planned Parenthood's 'charitable contributors'
I'm so glad we cross threads today!

See my #250.

Just a drive-by , and I have not read all of the posts above.

I can make a logical argument against abortion without reference to any religious beliefs. And I can make it on conservative grounds:

The conservative position is that one of the Government's chief functions is to protect life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and not to infringe on the right of others while doing so.

The question at Saddleback Church was a good one: "When do human rights begin?"

Surely we need to recognize that at some point, a fetus is human being with rights. We have already done so by virtue of laws that prosecute for double murder when a baby is killed in utero. Example, Lacy Peterson and her child.

So to say that the government has no interest in protecting human life before delivery is mistaken.
At what point does someone NOT get to eliminate someone else without due process? Without a criminal charge? Without benefit of counsel or an avenue of appeal?

The argument can be made that the protection of life is a first priority of government in a civilized society. One cannot choose to take the life of someone else without restriction .

re: #237 Salamantis

Parental consent for minors must always include a provision that allows the denial of that consent to be overridden by the courts.

There was a 14 year old girl who lived with her drunken father in the sticks surrounding my city (her mother was long gone). She was repeatedly raped by him, became pregnant, and went to her school nurse when she missed a period. Her father was charged with sexual molestation of a minor and jailed. From jail, he refused to grant consent for an abortion, maintaining that the pregnancy was God's punishment and retribution for 'their' sin. A child advocate helped her to appeal to the court, and they granted her permission to undergo the procedure. But her father refused to pay for it, and she had no money of her own, so I and a friend, who had heard of the case and were horrified by the whole thing, contacted a local clinic and split the cost. But what if we or someone like us had not been there? In such very narrow circumstances, where criminality by the parent is involved, I can morally justify the state picking up the tab.

Docs I work with would take care of this matter quietly, and at no cost to the young girl

re: #237 Salamantis

Parental consent for minors must always include a provision that allows the denial of that consent to be overridden by the courts.

There was a 14 year old girl who lived with her drunken father in the sticks surrounding my city (her mother was long gone). She was repeatedly raped by him, became pregnant, and went to her school nurse when she missed a period. Her father was charged with sexual molestation of a minor and jailed. From jail, he refused to grant consent for an abortion, maintaining that the pregnancy was God's punishment and retribution for 'their' sin. A child advocate helped her to appeal to the court, and they granted her permission to undergo the procedure. But her father refused to pay for it, and she had no money of her own, so I and a friend, who had heard of the case and were horrified by the whole thing, contacted a local clinic and split the cost. But what if we or someone like us had not been there? In such very narrow circumstances, where criminality by the parent is involved, I can morally justify the state picking up the tab.

Me too. No problem with it whatever. But then in most states I've lived in the father would have lost custody and any right to deny permission on the day he was convicted for molesting the child.

re: #207 honestjay

If you really want to make a difference in the 2010 congressional election, start donating to the RNC now. A little each month will not be noticed by you and will make a big difference.

And get others to do the same.

The problem with this approach is that it assumes a GOP that embraces my own values and is worthy of my donation. In many ways, I'm not seeing that. They pay lip service to Conservatism, they pay lip service to being anti-Marxist, but when the rubber hits the road they are often anything but.

I'm hoping that this defeat will wake up the leadership and inspire them to rethink their current positions - or non-positions - and produce a party whose principles I can endorse. But you have to admit that it's pretty pathetic when a party filled at the top with overt Marxist/Leftist ideologues like the Democrats, with Nancy Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, Barney Frank and others winds up running a candidate on a platform that was fundamentally MORE conservative than anything the Republican candidates have shown in practice over the last several years. And a group of freshman candidates, both in the last midterms and this election, who have often beat out their Republican opponents by running as stronger conservatives than they were.

I have high hopes for Conservatism - the country has moved inexorably to the Right over the last few decades, and there is no reason to think that this trend won't continue, although perhaps not at an even pace. But the question comes down to: which party is enacting Conservatism more through it's policies? That's the party that's going to get my support. Or, more likely, the candidates and issues that get my support will increasingly emanate from that party, whichever it is.

If the GOP wants my money, they're going to have to earn it. Spending like drunken sailors and wallpapering the nation with new entitlements hasn't helped.

It seems to me the basic reasons we lost were an unnatural hatred of Bush, an unnatural love for Obama and, most important, the tanking economy. I don't see other factors as particularly relevant this election cycle.

/remember, McCain was briefly ahead in the polls after the Republican convention, then the economy went south in a hurry and that's the moment we lost