IPT: HLF Trial Closing Arguments

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
US News • Tue Nov 11, 2008 at 11:40 am PST • Views: 156

The retrial of the Hamas-linked Islamic charity known as the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development is in its final phase: Purpose of HLF’s Charity Debated in Closing Arguments.

DALLAS – They sang praises to a terrorist group, had telephone access to its leadership and deceived the public about their true ambitions, a federal prosecutor said Monday about the Holy Land Foundation for Relief and Development (HLF).

Five former HLF officials are on trial for illegally routing millions of dollars in donations to Hamas through a series of Palestinian charities, known as zakat committees, that prosecutors say are controlled by the terrorist group.

In his closing argument, federal prosecutor Barry Jonas pointed to what he called the “highlights of the highlights” of the government’s six-week case. It includes hundreds of exhibits, ranging from wiretapped telephone calls to audio and video conferences to stacks of bank records.

But the case likely hinges on whether jurors agree the zakat committees were controlled by Hamas. Jonas pointed to instances in which some committee officials were identified as Hamas members in media interviews and by other Hamas officials. Telephone records in evidence tied in other committee officials. And a former HLF fundraiser testifying for the government said that the zakat committees were a part of Hamas.

It’s an assessment shared by the Palestinian Authority, Jonas noted.

The Hamas charter calls for the destruction of the state of Israel, to be replaced by a Palestinian state governed by Shariah, or Islamic law, Jonas said. It also calls for providing charity “to everyone who is in need of it.”

Bruce Hoffman, a Georgetown University professor and terrorism expert, testified that a social wing has proven critical for successful terrorist movements throughout history.

Hamas has three branches, Jonas said, a military arm that carries out terrorist attacks, a social arm that wins hearts and minds of the population through charitable work, and a political arm that controls the money and sets policy.

Much of Jonas’ argument was spent reviewing audio and video tapes in evidence. Rallies in which Hamas leaders appear or were praised were shown. A skit featuring defendant Mufid Abdelqader, who performed in a band at many of these functions, ended with him pretending to strangle an actor portraying an Israeli civilian.

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113 comments

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1 RoughRider  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:42:08am

Hopefully no Jew-hating crazies have infiltrated the jury room this time.

2 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:42:16am
3 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:45:27am
4 Nevergiveup  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:45:58am

re: #1 RoughRider

Hopefully no Jew-hating crazies have infiltrated the jury room this time.

Maybe, but who is on the jury? The 52% or the 48%?

5 Wyatt Earp  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:46:16am

Obama: "Nothing to see here. Move along!"

6 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:48:03am

I believe that justice will be served this time. I have a good feeling about it.

7 Rancher  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:49:10am

Not guilty.

Because they do so much good. Community organizing wise.

8 Nevergiveup  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:49:37am

re: #6 LudwigVanQuixote

I believe that justice will be served this time. I have a good feeling about it.

Just an aside. What was your feeling about the election?

9 Oh no...Sand People!  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:50:06am

If convicted surely they'll be on the receiving end of a Presidential pardon come January 20th...
/

10 Nevergiveup  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:51:52am

Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni will embark for New York late Tuesday night. She is scheduled to take part in a high-profile interfaith meeting at the United Nations General Assembly.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Now in this case I'm gonna go "green". What a waste of fuel!

11 freedombilly  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:52:35am

Not to worry. Under Obama no one is going to have any money left to give to charity anyways.

12 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:52:47am
13 Nevergiveup  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:53:01am

re: #11 freedombilly

Not to worry. Under Obama no one is going to have any money left to give to charity anyways.

And it's not as if Obama ever did?

14 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:53:02am

re: #10 Nevergiveup

Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni will embark for New York late Tuesday night. She is scheduled to take part in a high-profile interfaith meeting at the United Nations General Assembly.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Now in this case I'm gonna go "green". What a waste of fuel!

The article doesn't say which faiths will be represented.

15 Opinionated  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:53:18am
They sang praises to a terrorist group, had telephone access to its leadership and deceived the public about their true ambitions,

Is this about the Hamas trial or the Obama campaign?

16 Eowyn2  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:53:37am

re: #6 LudwigVanQuixote
interesting name.

17 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:53:51am

What will happen to the HLF in tis country if they are convicted?

18 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:53:55am

re: #15 Opinionated

Is this about the Hamas trial or the Obama campaign?

*ba-dum-bum*

19 Buck  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:54:52am

re: #12 buzzsawmonkey

How can she attend an "interfaith" meeting when she is not religious? Is she representing atheism?

Not fair, Jew is a Jew... atheism does not take away being jewish.

20 Last Mohican  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:55:11am

re: #10 Nevergiveup

Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni will embark for New York late Tuesday night. She is scheduled to take part in a high-profile interfaith meeting at the United Nations General Assembly.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Now in this case I'm gonna go "green". What a waste of fuel!

That really is a hell of a long trip to take, just to get screamed at maniacally. They probably could have just sent over a Jewish optometrist from First Avenue on his lunch break. Much cheaper and easier on the environment.

21 freedombilly  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:55:21am

re: #6 LudwigVanQuixote

Did you also consider the name RichardFidelio?

22 Oldasdirt  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:55:28am

re: #17 Ojoe

What will happen to the HLF in tis country if they are convicted?

Obama's cabinet members

23 Nevergiveup  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:55:30am

re: #14 MandyManners

The article doesn't say which faiths will be represented.

I read about this one. it is being organized by one of the high muckati mucks from Saudi Arabia. You know that "mecca" of freedom of religion? What a freak-en joke?

24 Intrepid  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:56:58am

In his closing argument, federal prosecutor Barry Jonas pointed to what he called the “highlights of the highlights” of the government’s six-week case. It includes hundreds of exhibits, ranging from wiretapped telephone calls to audio and video conferences to stacks of bank records.

Whaddya wanna bet this will be Barry Jonas' last trial as a federal prosecutor? He'll get the ax after January 20, along with probably every other fed pros.

25 Last Mohican  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:57:35am

re: #19 Buck

Not fair, Jew is a Jew... atheism does not take away being jewish.

Well, I dunno. There is a Jewish religion, and there is a Jewish race, and the two obviously have a large intersection. But if it's an interfaith meeting, rather than an interrace meeting, then maybe they should invited a religious Jew?

In the end I don't think it will matter much. Anti-Jewish hate groups like the UN seem to hate the race, not the religion. So Livni will do just fine.

26 Oldasdirt  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:58:01am

re: #24 Intrepid

Yeap!

27 Opinionated  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:59:00am

re: #10 Nevergiveup

Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni will embark for New York late Tuesday night. She is scheduled to take part in a high-profile interfaith meeting at the United Nations General Assembly.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Now in this case I'm gonna go "green". What a waste of fuel!


THE SAUDIS' SHAM

By Ali al-Ahmed is director of the Institute for Gulf Affairs, a think tank in Washington, DC, focused on the Persian Gulf countries.

Allowing the current public-relations exercise to proceed will send the Middle East governments the wrong message - that religious oppression at home will be tolerated as long as the regimes pay periodic lip service to religious tolerance abroad.

[Link: www.nypost.com...]

28 Intrepid  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:59:17am

Any hope that the stars will align and Israel votes Likud in the upcoming election?

Any? Please?

29 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:59:42am
30 Silhouette  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:59:45am
Hamas has three branches, Jonas said, a military arm that carries out terrorist attacks, a social arm that wins hearts and minds of the population through charitable work, and a political arm that controls the money and sets policy.

We'll be hearing a lot more in the near future about the different "arms" of terrorist groups. These arguments will be used to justify recognizing, negotiating, and even providing support to terrorist groups.

31 Rancher  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 11:59:56am

re: #11 freedombilly

Given the drop in oil prices I bet terrorists the world over will be feeling the pinch. You know Iran is hurting, Iranian economist are criticizing Ahmadinejad.

32 Killgore Trout  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:00:14pm

re: #17 Ojoe

I'm pretty sure HLF has already been shut down but if they're convicted the HLF guys are going to serve some prison time.

33 Eowyn2  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:00:48pm

re: #14 MandyManners

The article doesn't say which faiths will be represented.


As long as sharia is instilled, it doesnt matter

34 joncelli  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:01:13pm

And once this one winds down we can get ready for all the trials of the Guantanamo detainees. Oh what fun!

35 Nevergiveup  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:01:46pm

re: #34 joncelli

And once this one winds down we can get ready for all the trials of the Guantanamo detainees. Oh what fun!

Don't foget the Fort Dix trial going on now also?

36 Miss Molly  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:01:55pm

Maybe they can join the "charity" that Barry created to keep on the payroll a lot of workers that can't be used in his administration. Its the one where he can collect a lot of money and never have to explain where the money came from to bankroll workers who can't get "real jobs" in his administration because of their problem backgrounds.

37 Last Mohican  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:02:32pm

re: #28 Intrepid

Any hope that the stars will align and Israel votes Likud in the upcoming election?

Any? Please?

Why wait for the stars to align? Maybe we Americans should send millions of dollars in donations to Likud, start cold-calling Israeli citizens and asking them to vote Likud, fly to Tel Aviv and hand out Likud pamphlets, and register illegally to vote in the Israeli election. It's now a proven strategy for victory.

38 quickjustice  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:02:37pm

If the jury convicts, President Obama will have his first opportunity for a pardon!

39 monkey den  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:02:39pm

Obama leaks details of Bush convo. This piece of $hit has no honor or respect for anything outside of his own cephalomegaly.

Drudge

40 Ojoe  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:03:26pm

re: #32 Killgore Trout

Slam!

41 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:03:27pm

re: #29 taxfreekiller

Of some note:

Acorn is now providing new votes in Dallas county in an attempt to over throw the R's in Austin, the R incumbent in Irving Tx had a 700 vote lead
and ya, its down to 20 and a recount is coming Dec. 2, and if they steal this one the Texas house falls into commie control.

they cheat, they lie, they live with William Ayers

beware
more than likely an Acorn person is on this jury

Hm. How come it seems to be the usual case that the "lost' then found votes are always for the Dem candidate.

How can that be? Wouldn't at least some of those "lost' votes be for Repub candidate? Does anyone in a position to do so ever question this oddly biased pattern of "lost" and "found" votes?:

42 Nevergiveup  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:03:32pm

re: #39 monkey den

Obama leaks details of Bush convo. This piece of $hit has no honor or respect for anything outside of his own cephalomegaly.

Drudge

Chicago Politics baby!

43 MandyManners  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:04:34pm

re: #23 Nevergiveup

I read about this one. it is being organized by one of the high muckati mucks from Saudi Arabia. You know that "mecca" of freedom of religion? What a freak-en joke?

So, she's meeting with a bunch of assholes who want to shove her into a sack before they kill her.

44 Eowyn2  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:04:40pm

re: #25 Last Mohican

Well, I dunno. There is a Jewish religion, and there is a Jewish race, and the two obviously have a large intersection. But if it's an interfaith meeting, rather than an interrace meeting, then maybe they should invited a religious Jew?

In the end I don't think it will matter much. Anti-Jewish hate groups like the UN seem to hate the race, not the religion. So Livni will do just fine.

Anti Jewish hate groups do not seperate race from religion. Use the Dhimmis of all religions and/or races and then, supremacy.

45 jemima  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:05:35pm

re: #25 Last Mohican

Well, I dunno. There is a Jewish religion, and there is a Jewish race

Wow. Who knew? So I'm the same "race" as an Ethiopian Jew. Well, that's kinda cool, if not really surprising to learn at this late date in my life.

You want to clarify that now or when I reach thru the monitor and stuff the mouse into your throat?

46 Nevergiveup  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:05:46pm

re: #43 MandyManners

So, she's meeting with a bunch of assholes who want to shove her into a sack before they kill her.

Sounds like a pretty good summation to me.

47 Outrider  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:06:13pm

re: #29 taxfreekiller

Of some note:

Acorn is now providing new votes in Dallas county in an attempt to over throw the R's in Austin, the R incumbent in Irving Tx had a 700 vote lead
and ya, its down to 20 and a recount is coming Dec. 2, and if they steal this one the Texas house falls into commie control.

they cheat, they lie, they live with William Ayers

beware
more than likely an Acorn person is on this jury

There is a question for the ages. Why is it always Democrat votes that are "found"? Why is it always Democrat votes that seem to "hang chad"? Why is always the Democrat votes that are "mismarked because the ballots aren't clear"? Why is it always Republican absentee ballots that are tossed as being "incorrect"? Seems the only time Democrats concede there is fraud is in connection with another Democrat. (Obama getting names crossed off in first senate race, Hillary voters & the caucus votes)

Surely Republicans can't be ~that~ much smarter that everything connected to voting is done correctly. Surely your average Democrat isn't that dense they can't vote properly.

This constant fraud is getting very tiring.

48 Outrider  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:07:16pm

re: #36 Miss Molly

Maybe they can join the "charity" that Barry created to keep on the payroll a lot of workers that can't be used in his administration. Its the one where he can collect a lot of money and never have to explain where the money came from to bankroll workers who can't get "real jobs" in his administration because of their problem backgrounds.

huh. As far as I know, many of his "workers" still haven't ben paid for their pre-election work and are quite angry about it.

49 Intrepid  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:07:33pm

re: #39 monkey den

Obama leaks details of Bush convo. This piece of $hit has no honor or respect for anything outside of his own cephalomegaly.

Drudge

The ASSOCIATED PRESS quickly followed with details of the conversation, citing "aides who described the discussion on grounds of anonymity, citing the private nature of the meeting."

I'm trying to get my arms around that one, but I just can't. The aides leaked the info but wouldn't go on the record, because of the private nature of the meeting?

What the hell is wrong with these people? Do they think this is just a game?
What, are they stuck in Jr High school girl-gang mentality?

50 Opinionated  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:07:52pm

re: #25 Last Mohican

Jews are not a Race.

Jews are a Nation and a Religion.

51 Long Nics are Looonnng  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:07:53pm

Just got here. Anybody seen Drudge? POTUS be pissed!

52 Eowyn2  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:07:59pm

re: #39 monkey den

Obama leaks details of Bush convo. This piece of $hit has no honor or respect for anything outside of his own cephalomegaly.

Drudge

nobody is surprised are they.

I hope the fbi, cia, joint chiefs et al realize that this guy and his cabinet are going to be their worst leak since Benedict Arnold.

53 yma o hyd  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:08:04pm

Speaking of the U.N. - what happened to that shady U.N. type who was 'watching' the elections for racism and such?
Anything? Any report? Anybody seen him? At all?

54 Long Nics are Looonnng  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:08:32pm

re: #51 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Obama has learned very quickly that his staff can not be trusted.

55 Nevergiveup  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:08:46pm

Steele Likely to Seek RNC Leadership Post

[Link: elections.foxnews.com...]

That's OK by me.

56 Rancher  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:09:07pm

re: #45 jemima

Maybe race is the wrong word but if daddy is a Jew you are too, que no?

57 Eowyn2  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:09:47pm

re: #47 Outrider

more importantly
DO WE WANT SOMEONE WHO CANT FILL IN A CIRCLE TO PICK OUR LEADERS?

58 reine.de.tout  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:10:15pm

re: #56 Rancher

Maybe race is the wrong word but if daddy is a Jew you are too, que no?

If your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew.

59 Eowyn2  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:10:27pm

re: #53 yma o hyd

Speaking of the U.N. - what happened to that shady U.N. type who was 'watching' the elections for racism and such?
Anything? Any report? Anybody seen him? At all?

Was he the one with the billy club in Philly?

60 yma o hyd  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:10:30pm

re: #49 Intrepid

I'm trying to get my arms around that one, but I just can't. The aides leaked the info but wouldn't go on the record, because of the private nature of the meeting?

What the hell is wrong with these people? Do they think this is just a game?
What, are they stuck in Jr High school girl-gang mentality?

Short answer: yep, to both questions.

61 jemima  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:10:46pm

re: #56 Rancher

Maybe race is the wrong word but if daddy is a Jew you are too, que no?

Excuse me? What are you trying to say?

62 Intrepid  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:10:49pm

re: #56 Rancher

Maybe race is the wrong word but if daddy is a Jew you are too, que no?

I thought it depended on one's mother being Jewish...

?

63 Intrepid  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:12:04pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

If your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew.

Thanks - that answered my question! :-)

64 Outrider  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:12:13pm

re: #57 Eowyn2

more importantly
DO WE WANT SOMEONE WHO CANT FILL IN A CIRCLE TO PICK OUR LEADERS?

I've never found voting to be particularly challenging. Little did I suspect it required near-mensa abilities.

65 yma o hyd  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:12:38pm

re: #59 Eowyn2

Was he the one with the billy club in Philly?

Naaahhh - he looked far to smarmy to touch a billy club.

I can't recall his name, something starting with D ... someone from that country, Africa ...

66 Opinionated  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:12:42pm

re: #56 Rancher

Maybe race is the wrong word but if daddy is a Jew you are too, que no?

No

67 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:13:43pm
68 Rancher  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:14:57pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

Then my step son's not a Jew? Rustler's mom was Hispanic and his dad was Jewish, but he is not considered Hispanic. My dad was a Spaniard and mom was a Hoosier, and I'm Hispanic. Go figure.

69 Silhouette  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:16:34pm

re: #68 Rancher

Lorne Green was a Spainard?!

70 jemima  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:17:06pm

From the US Government Census information:

The minimum categories for race are now: American Indian or Alaska Native; Asian; Black or African American; Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander; and White.

http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/race/racefactcb.html

I don't see Jew listed here, Rancher. You don't have a clue how offensive you're being.

71 Last Mohican  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:17:45pm

re: #45 jemima

Well, it would be hard to elucidate my point with your mouse stuffed down my throat, so I'd better reply quickly.

Throughout history, persons of the Jewish faith have tended to marry others of the Jewish faith. Whenever genetic material is mostly segregated within a particular group for many years, a race develops. In the case of Jewish people, there are really several races, and the plural would have been a more appropriate term for me to use. But Jews, for the most part, do comprise certain well-defined races. Ashkenazi Jews, for example, disproportionately carry certain genetic diseases, like Tay Sachs disease. That wouldn't be possible if they weren't a race.

72 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:18:24pm
73 jemima  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:20:46pm

re: #71 Last Mohican

Well, it would be hard to elucidate my point with MY mouse stuffed down my throat, so I'd better reply quickly.

Throughout history, persons of the Jewish faith have tended to marry others of the Jewish faith. Whenever genetic material is mostly segregated within a particular group for many years, a race develops. In the case of Jewish people, there are really several races, and the plural would have been a more appropriate term for me to use. But Jews, for the most part, do comprise certain well-defined races. Ashkenazi Jews, for example, disproportionately carry certain genetic diseases, like Tay Sachs disease. That wouldn't be possible if they weren't a race.

You have a legitimate link (in that I mean not a Nazi, anti-semitic type link) where I can read about this Jewish race to which you refer?

74 Rancher  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:21:14pm

re: #69 Silhouette
LOL!

75 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:21:22pm

re: #17 Ojoe

What will happen to the HLF in tis country if they are convicted?

A presidential pardon?

76 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:22:34pm

re: #16 Eowyn2

It's just my favorite composer and my all time favorite literary character...

Eowyn is great too. I was enough of a Tolkien fan in my youger days to learn some Quenya. Yes, I am an uber-nerd and not afraid to admit it!

77 Opinionated  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:22:44pm

re: #68 Rancher

Then my step son's not a Jew? Rustler's mom was Hispanic and his dad was Jewish, but he is not considered Hispanic. My dad was a Spaniard and mom was a Hoosier, and I'm Hispanic. Go figure.

It doesn't take much thinking to appreciate that while anyone can convert to become Jewish, changing your race is an impossibility.

Micheal Jackson excepted.

78 Buck  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:22:59pm

re: #45 jemima

Wow. Who knew? So I'm the same "race" as an Ethiopian Jew. Well, that's kinda cool, if not really surprising to learn at this late date in my life.

You want to clarify that now or when I reach thru the monitor and stuff the mouse into your throat?

It's true. We both come from the same olive skinned ancestors. There is a lot of evidence that Jesus (a jew) was in fact bark skinned as well.

Guess who's coming for Dinner?

79 monkey den  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:23:08pm

re: #54 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Obama has learned very quickly that his staff can not be trusted.

Dick Morris said this the very day Emanuel's name became a rumor.

80 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:24:41pm

re: #19 Buck
That's well said actually. I could no longer stop being Jewish than someone could stop being Irish or Chinese. Though, I am of the more religious bent as well.

81 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:24:47pm
82 Dustyvet  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:24:52pm

re: #18 MandyManners

*ba-dum-bum*

[Link: www.evtv1.com...]

83 jemima  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:25:00pm

re: #78 Buck

It's true. We both come from the same olive skinned ancestors. There is a lot of evidence that Jesus (a jew) was in fact bark skinned as well.

Ya got some of his skin?

84 Barking Pumpkin  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:25:21pm

re: #25 Last Mohican

Well, I dunno. There is a Jewish religion, and there is a Jewish race, and the two obviously have a large intersection. But if it's an interfaith meeting, rather than an interrace meeting, then maybe they should invited a religious Jew?

In the end I don't think it will matter much. Anti-Jewish hate groups like the UN seem to hate the race, not the religion. So Livni will do just fine.

Uh, there is a Jewish race? And pray tell what race would that be?

85 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:27:31pm
86 jemima  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:28:16pm

re: #84 Barking Pumpkin

Uh, there is a Jewish race? And pray tell what race would that be?

Jewish Race. I can't find it on the US Gov. Census info but we have to take his word on it.

87 Barking Pumpkin  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:28:27pm

re: #85 buzzsawmonkey

ROFLMAO!

88 Rancher  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:28:52pm

re: #70 jemima

From the US Government Census information:


http://www.census.gov/population/www/soc demo/race/racefactcb.html

I don't see Jew listed here, Rancher. You don't have a clue how offensive you're being.

I am truly sorry, I don't mean to be offensive at all. We are pretty ignorant here, my son really considered himself Jewish although he does not practice the religion. I just told him he wasn't but if his mom had been Jewish he would be Jewish? Or a Jew? Or what? Seems as screwed up as being Hispanic only if your dad was Hispanic but not if your mom was. The whole classification process is screwed up, I consider myself American, any other classification is basically racist.

89 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:29:20pm

re: #45 jemima


I understand why you might get prickly over poor phrasing and the particularly loaded history such phrasing invokes. However, you and me, (of Askenazic descent, at least I am. If you are Sephardic you are even closer) have much in common genetically with our Eithiopian bretheren.

90 A Kiwi Infidel  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:31:31pm

re: #58 reine.de.tout

If your mother is a Jew, you are a Jew.

Which makes the new Prime Minister (elect) of New Zealand a Jew.

91 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:35:10pm

In fact, just to weigh in on the whole Jewish race thing...

The problem that many of my Jewish bretheren here are coming up against is that unfortunately, every time in history our identity as a people, rather than as a religion has come up, it has been done by unpleasant people. Our ethnicity and our cultural identity has always been used against us.

Unfortunately, it is simply safer for many of us to simply think of ourselves in terms of religion.

However, what do you call people of a shared ancestry, culture, language and tradition if not a race? I am not trying to offend anyone here. I am simply saying that there is nothing wrong with who we are any more than there is something wrong with being a Celt or a Sioux.

92 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:37:10pm
93 Dustyvet  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:37:31pm

re: #90 A Kiwi Infidel

Which makes the new Prime Minister (elect) of New Zealand a Jew.

So what haappend to Helen Clark?

94 jemima  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:38:50pm

re: #89 LudwigVanQuixote

I understand why you might get prickly over poor phrasing and the particularly loaded history such phrasing invokes. However, you and me, (of Askenazic descent, at least I am. If you are Sephardic you are even closer) have much in common genetically with our Eithiopian bretheren.

It's not just poor phrasing, the guy is defending the "correctness" of his incorrectness. It's about winnowing the Jews to one side, classifying them as other so then you can eliminate them by whatever technological means is available at the time. The first step is making us different. This is a disgusting thought and that it came up so easily here is also unnerving. Especially given the threat we all may well face in the near future.

As for Tay-Sachs, I'm not a geneticist, but in any closed society, there are genetic problems. It doesn't prove Jews are a race unto themselves.

95 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:40:59pm
96 Rancher  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:41:44pm

We in corrections were taught that there are only three races, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Caucasoid. Any other distinction is ethnic.

97 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:43:30pm
98 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:46:53pm
99 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:47:11pm

Also, just to clear up an earlier question: The definition of Jewishness for the last 3,000 years has been that if your mother was Jewish, you are Jewish. Tribal idenity (like Judah vs. Levy) Priestly Identity (being a Cohen) or membership in the Royal line (i.e. house of David, now defunct, but we believe will make a comeback...) go by the male line.

There are any number of long commentaries about why this is. On a practical level it is a recognition that the mother is the primary teacher and that for our entire history, it has been Jewish women who make a home Jewish and anchor the family in the tradition. On a spiritual level there is a marvelous discussion about the iamgery of the womb on a cabalistic level coupled with the notion that women are gifted with the ability to bring new life into the world, are inherrently more apt to holiness than men and are closer to G-d.

As a final, darker discussion of history, it resolves in a kind way, the question of what to do when pregnancy results from rape. In many cultures, the woman and the child - both innocents - are outcast. In this case, they are still both Jews.

In the Reform movement in America, there is the notion that having a Jewish father is sufficient to "qualify." I will refrain from comment on that point - as it is a rather touchy subject - however, most Jews the world over, hold by the traditional standard.

100 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:52:13pm

re: #94 jemima


I was not referring to Tay Sachs. I also hear your points completely. I am not trying to argue with your intentions or your concerns. However, what do you make of the fact that Eithiopian Cohanim share the same Cohen genetic markers?

As to the difference between race and people, I would respectfully ask, if we put the obvious historical charge of the word race aside (which may not be possible, or even a good idea) what is the definitional difference?

I would consider race and people in this context to be synonyms.

101 Outrider  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:53:21pm

re: #94 jemima

It's not just poor phrasing, the guy is defending the "correctness" of his incorrectness. It's about winnowing the Jews to one side, classifying them as other so then you can eliminate them by whatever technological means is available at the time. The first step is making us different. This is a disgusting thought and that it came up so easily here is also unnerving. Especially given the threat we all may well face in the near future.

As for Tay-Sachs, I'm not a geneticist, but in any closed society, there are genetic problems. It doesn't prove Jews are a race unto themselves.

As far as I know this is the remark that started it.

e: #25 Last Mohican

Well, I dunno. There is a Jewish religion, and there is a Jewish race

Wow. Who knew? So I'm the same "race" as an Ethiopian Jew. Well, that's kinda cool, if not really surprising to learn at this late date in my life.

You want to clarify that now or when I reach thru the monitor and stuff the mouse into your throat?


And instead of educating the guy you jumped down his throat like he was a troll with sarcasm and crude threats. Apparently you forget there are quite a few folks in here that are not ... hell, now what are we supposed to refer to this as?
Is this a question of referring to Jew as a people or a race? I had always thought it was an ethnic group. So, it comes down to semantics?

102 Outrider  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:55:15pm

re: #101 Outrider

And instead of educating the guy you jumped down his throat like he was a troll with sarcasm and crude threats. Apparently you forget there are quite a few folks in here that are not ... hell, now what are we supposed to refer to this as?
Is this a question of referring to Jew as a people or a race? I had always thought it was an ethnic group. So, it comes down to semantics?

And he was replying to Buck in post #19 which is the line you quoted.

103 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:57:08pm
104 kansas  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 12:59:42pm

Here in suburban Kansas City I drove by the expanding Islamic Center of Johnson County today. Anybody else noticing an increase in mosques around them? I think we are in real trouble.

105 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 1:01:09pm

I am actually not trying to be a smart ass... I am genuinely interested in people's opinions.

In terms of definition, what is the difference between a race of people, a people, and an ethnic group? We are all aware of the loaded history of these words, so I accept already that some are more polite than others.
However, if you try to define each word, what is the real difference between them?

106 Rancher  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 1:01:46pm

So by the government's standard my son isn't Hispanic because his dad wasn't even though his mom was, because we are a patriarchal society. By the same token I'm Hispanic because my dad was even though most Hispanics don't consider me Hispanic because I look white and don't speak much Spanish. My dad said he wasn't accepted because he was cabrona Espagnol, not Mexican. I still say the whole thing is racists and I hope that some day we chuck the whole classification thing.

107 Wishing  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 1:04:30pm

re: #10 Nevergiveup

Foreign Affairs Minister Tzipi Livni will embark for New York late Tuesday night. She is scheduled to take part in a high-profile interfaith meeting at the United Nations General Assembly.

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

Now in this case I'm gonna go "green". What a waste of fuel!

I thought she was like PM in Waiting or something?

108 LudwigVanQuixote  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 1:04:59pm

re: #103 buzzsawmonkey


OK, I hear you very, very clearly. I absolutely agree that the specific usage of the word "race" by now-defunct pseudo-science is totally useless. However, I would consider the Massai to be a seperate race than the Chinese.

I am really not intending to be a pain here. I am genuinely curious what the way we refer to a distinct ethnic group should be. Further, in the gegeneral context of this conversation, I as a Jew, have always, rather happily, considered myself as part of a distinct ethnic group.

109 Last Mohican  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 1:14:43pm

re: #108 LudwigVanQuixote

I as a Jew, have always, rather happily, considered myself as part of a distinct ethnic group.

And I too. I came back to this now-dead thread to clarify my point and hopefully avoid any offense.

If you are an Ashkenazi Jew, like me, then you are a part of a distinct ethnic group. From a scientific perspective, you are more likely to have Tay Sachs disease, or cystic fibrosis, or breast cancer, and you're not likely to have sickle cell anemia. From a social perspective, if you decide that you don't believe in God at all, and you'll never set foot in a synagogue or light a shabbat candle again, you're still ethnically Jewish. People like Louis Farrakhan and the Saudi Wahabists still hate you. They hate the race, not the theology.

Sorry again if anyone took offense at my comments in this thread.

110 Rancher  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 1:36:11pm

re: #109 Last Mohican

So they hate the race ethnicity. Whatever, if they come after you they have to go through me.

111 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 2:58:59pm
112 [deleted]  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 3:00:32pm
113 RoyalCanadian  Tue, Nov 11, 2008 3:20:04pm

Never have so few owed so much to so many


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 Frank says:

All year long you people manufactured this crap, and one night a year you've got to listen to it! -- Frank introducing "psychedelic music" to the audience of the National Academy of Recording Arts & Science dinner in New York (1968) at which the Mothers were invited to play