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Thursday Morning Open

Open | Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 10:37:35 am PST

As the Dow index plunges again, here’s a Thursday open thread...

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1046 comments

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1 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:38:25am

I love the smell of threadage in the morning!

2 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:38:28am

I've stopped watching the DOW and every other index.

3 nnorb  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:39:31am

I like watching in the last 5 minutes, before 4. Kind of like watching rats running from a sinking ship.

4 Haole  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:39:33am

"How low can ya go"

5 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:40:16am

Rick Santorum on Fox News again, advocating a hardcore return to social conservatism.

Santorum is a very active creationist, one of the most vocal supporters of the "intelligent design" hooey:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

6 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:40:19am

Its see-sawing: up-down, up-down, up-down ...
Could make a person seasick, watching that!

7 nnorb  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:40:42am

re: #4 Haole

"How low can ya go"

Kind of like the square root of negative one, no one really knows.

8 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:41:19am

Frighteningly similar to Isreal's response to Hamas.

Dilbert

9 Max Darkside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:42:26am

I think when the DOW went into the 7,000's it triggered a bunch of buy orders and that is why it immediately started climbing again. Maybe. Out today, buying at the close (we'll see how THAT goes... ha!).

10 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:43:04am

re: #5 Charles

Rick Santorum on Fox News again, advocating a hardcore return to social conservatism.

Santorum is a very active creationist, one of the most vocal supporters of the "intelligent design" hooey:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I think the Repubs should really spend some time figuring out what happened to their fiscal conservatism and stop wasting time pandering to the asses in the pews.

Because right now, they appear to like Democrats who got religion, and that's not working.

11 Typicalwhitey  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:43:08am

I just emailed GMA about having Ayers on.
They make me sick.
How is this person considered someone who ok to be around.

12 LaForzadelDestino  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:43:48am

I can't watch it. I'm in deep denial. Television and the stock market are "dear dead days that are now no more". I'm sure that's a bastardization of the original quote but I'm too far down in the well to look it up.

13 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:44:54am

re: #12 LaForzadelDestino

I can't watch it. I'm in deep denial. Television and the stock market are "dear dead days that are now no more". I'm sure that's a bastardization of the original quote but I'm too far down in the well to look it up.

Timmy?

14 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:45:29am

re: #5 Charles

Rick Santorum on Fox News again, advocating a hardcore return to social conservatism.

Santorum is a very active creationist, one of the most vocal supporters of the "intelligent design" hooey:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Religious beliefs simply have no place in a political party.

A secular state is not a-religious, it simply does not give room in its legislation for anything based on religious views.

Every citizen is still free to cling to whatever religious text is his preferred one - but the tenets of that book won't find place in legislation.

All those who reject this - just think about a party for the introduction of Sharia law ... how can this be refused, if that party gets a majority, when there are no safeguards to keep religion out of politics?

15 KrsnaDas  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:45:31am

Charles: that reminds me... I remember a funny episode of Sopranos when Tony Soprano was talking about how "Sanitorium" was against people being gay

16 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:45:46am

re: #13 MandyManners

Timmy?

Lassie?

17 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:46:10am

re: #15 KrsnaDas

Charles: that reminds me... I remember a funny episode of Sopranos when Tony Soprano was talking about how "Sanitorium" was against people being gay

There is a whole website dedicated to that very topic.

18 capitalist piglet  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:47:18am

re: #16 subsailor68

Lassie?

Woof!

19 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:47:22am

Just curious, is The VP going to take Biden out hunting tonight?

20 LaForzadelDestino  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:47:43am

re: #13 MandyManners

Timmy?

Sorry. I don't know Timmy. It's awfully dark down here.

21 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:47:51am

Santorum also believes that Americans have no constitutional right to privacy when it comes to sexual acts, and is rabidly homophobic:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

22 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:48:00am

re: #18 capitalist piglet

Woof!

Thank heavens! You're just in time.

23 Son of the Black Dog  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:48:07am

Dow back up some, 8195 at 1:42 EST. However only two stocks are up: J&J and Caterpillar, both up 9 cents.

24 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:48:17am

re: #19 Nevergiveup

Just curious, is The VP going to take Biden out hunting tonight?

LOL, I read that as: Just curious, is The VP going to take out Biden hunting tonight?"

25 Ceemack  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:48:18am

The Dow is DOWN?

AGAIN?

But...but...but...we elected OBAMA! I mean, everything was supposed to start getting better on Nov. 5! The Dow was supposed to stop falling, the oceans were supposed to stop rising, the world was supposed to love us again...

Oh, wait...maybe all that stuff's not supposed to happen until Jan. 21.

26 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:48:33am

The sun came up this morning.
I breathe. I talk. I even sing.
I have all my parts.
Life does NOT suck.

This moment of optimism brought to you by your Creator.

27 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:48:57am

re: #23 Son of the Black Dog

Dow back up some, 8195 at 1:42 EST. However only two stocks are up: J&J and Caterpillar, both up 9 cents.

Foreign sales of the D-9 up?

28 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:49:10am

re: #18 capitalist piglet

Woof!

Shouldn't that be "oink"?

29 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:49:33am

re: #26 rawmuse

The sun came up this morning.
I breathe. I talk. I even sing.
I have all my parts.
Life does NOT suck.

This moment of optimism brought to you by your Creator.

We had a saying - it's a good day when the number of dives equals the number of surfaces.


:-)

30 capitalist piglet  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:49:40am

re: #15 KrsnaDas

Charles: that reminds me... I remember a funny episode of Sopranos when Tony Soprano was talking about how "Sanitorium" was against people being gay

I would like to pose a question to everyone:

What is your all-time favorite line from The Sopranos? Mine is:

"I've got federal marshalls so far up my ass, I can taste Brylcreme."

31 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:49:59am

In acknowledgement and support of Buzz's pun on the last thread: Take it to the Limit,

No video, really, to interfere with your commenting pleasure. I like that song.

32 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:50:04am

re: #25 Ceemack

The Dow is DOWN?

AGAIN?

But...but...but...we elected OBAMA! I mean, everything was supposed to start getting better on Nov. 5! The Dow was supposed to stop falling, the oceans were supposed to stop rising, the world was supposed to love us again...

Oh, wait...maybe all that stuff's not supposed to happen until Jan. 21.

The DOW doesn't like the government dicking around with the "bailout" that was so ballyhooed.

33 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:50:10am

Possible Obama choice foe CIA director,

Thomas Fingar, the chief of analysis for the [national] intelligence director...
Liberals would swoon over Fingar, I suspect. As head of State Department intelligence in the first Bush administration, he was the only intelligence official who called it right on Saddam Hussein's nonexistent weapons of mass destruction. And he oversaw the writing of a National Intelligence Estimate on Iran's nuclear program that many credit - or blame - for blunting what seemed like an imminent Bush administration attack on Iran.

Fingar would be a bad choice, signaling the Obama admin intends to negotiate woth Iran and hobble the CIA.

34 capitalist piglet  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:50:31am

re: #28 Ford_Prefect

Shouldn't that be "oink"?

Hey, a pig named "Lassie" - that would be cool!

35 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:51:07am

re: #21 Charles

Santorum also believes that Americans have no constitutional right to privacy when it comes to sexual acts, and is rabidly homphobic:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I wonder what he thinks of Griswold v. Connecticut 381 U.S. 479 (1965).

36 Max Darkside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:51:09am

Last Windows update toasted the ability to use the mouse within Word 2007. What to do... what to do... use a different computer I guess.

37 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:51:39am

re: #29 subsailor68

We had a saying - it's a good day when the number of dives equals the number of surfaces.


:-)

My Male says much the same thing! He served as a machinists' mate on subs.

38 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:52:02am

re: #10 Walter L. Newton

I think the Repubs should really spend some time figuring out what happened to their fiscal conservatism and stop wasting time pandering to the asses in the pews.

Because right now, they appear to like Democrats who got religion, and that's not working.

You don't get much support deriding or slamming the very kind of people who you hope would vote your way going forward.

You can be conservative in your fiscal views, and deemphasize the social conservatism - if you are a fiscal conservative, you are going to necessarily limit how much government intervention occurs in the private sector by limiting how much money is available to do so.

39 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:52:46am

re: #37 Dianna

My Male says much the same thing! He served as a machinists' mate on subs.

Bless you, and all the ladies silly - or brave - enough to marry guys like us.

:-)

40 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:52:51am

re: #21 Charles

Santorum also believes that Americans have no constitutional right to privacy when it comes to sexual acts, and is rabidly homophobic:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Huh. From his pic I would swear he was of the gay persuasion himself.

41 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:53:01am

re: #35 MandyManners

I wonder what he thinks of Griswold v. Connecticut 381 U.S. 479 (1965).

He probably stays awake at night, fuming about it.

42 freedombilly  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:53:11am

re: #21 Charles

Santorum also believes that Americans have no constitutional right to privacy when it comes to sexual acts, and is rabidly homophobic:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

That guy is a mess and it is a shame that Fox News so frequently props him up as a representative Republican.

43 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:53:35am

I had the pleasure of hearing George Will speak last night. He is much more animated in person than when they stick him behind the desk as a talking head.

Here are 2 quotes that I thought were funny.

Speaking of the Dems
"We've got them right where we want them"
and
"Pessimism is not without its pleasures"

44 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:53:35am

re: #21 Charles

Santorum also believes that Americans have no constitutional right to privacy when it comes to sexual acts, and is rabidly homophobic:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Aww - we do live in the 21st Century, not the 12th, don't we?

45 Emmett Flatus  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:53:56am

The market gyrations should have been expected. Any day that the Pres, Bernacke or Paulson speak the market immediately evacuates its bowels.

46 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:54:41am

re: #21 Charles

Santorum also believes that Americans have no constitutional right to privacy when it comes to sexual acts, and is rabidly homphobic:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

sodomy laws properly exist to prevent acts which "undermine the basic tenets of our society and the family"

I could speculate about his love life but, I won't.

47 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:55:01am

re: #5 Charles

Rick Santorum on Fox News again, advocating a hardcore return to social conservatism.

Santorum is a very active creationist, one of the most vocal supporters of the "intelligent design" hooey:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Social conservatism does not address the issue that left the Dems in power in Congress after the 2006 elections. Santorum is being a bit of a twit here. What happened is that we forgot about smaller government and being fiscally responsible. Those two things are what got the revolution in 1994.

I still say we need to actively have a platform that espouses clean, reformed, and trasparent governance if we are to win in 2010. The Obama White House along with Pelosi's House and Reid's Senate will be the one of the most corrupt and dirty governments in the history of these United States. People like the reform message.

48 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:55:10am

re: #41 Dianna

He probably stays awake at night, fuming about it.

Would he try to outlaw BC for married people?

49 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:55:44am

re: #42 freedombilly

That guy is a mess and it is a shame that Fox News so frequently props him up as a representative Republican.

Look for them--and, CNN--to do it also with Jindal.

50 Mostly Annoyed  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:55:50am

The 92,000 new voters who registered during the early voting period include people who simply changed counties, but more than two-thirds of all registrations this year have come from new voters or voters new to North Carolina.

Why does this sound so much like Ohio?

51 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:55:55am

Lassie is no more.

Timmy, prone to wandering off and getting into situations, has been diagnosed with ADD and medicated into immobility.

Lassie was picked up for violating the leash laws. When the Animal Control Dept noted that "she" was a "he", they made him an "it".

Boomer is in rehab, working on childhood issue.

/

52 MrSnuggles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:56:16am

It saddens me that social conservatism is being so nonchalantly tossed out the window when it has been fiscal liberalism that has hurt republicans so much. In case you have not noticed, the dems won the hispanic vote overwhelmingly. How are republicans ever going to get their votes if not via the common beliefs that abortion is wrong, gay rights are wrong, and God is good?

53 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:56:57am

re: #40 Russkilitlover

Huh. From his pic I would swear he was of the gay persuasion himself.

He looks like one of those pretty men who think a successful career in politics is their due because they look like a film star (after lots of make-overs and otehr stuff I won't go into ...)

54 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:56:58am

re: #38 lawhawk

You don't get much support deriding or slamming the very kind of people who you hope would vote your way going forward.

You can be conservative in your fiscal views, and deemphasize the social conservatism - if you are a fiscal conservative, you are going to necessarily limit how much government intervention occurs in the private sector by limiting how much money is available to do so.

I was not deriding any person, at least that was not my intention. I was not calling anyone an ass, I was simply referring to the body count, the actual butt count, in the pews. The way I see it, your correction is saying the same thing I said.

But, if my wording was confusing, then I apologize. I really was trying to say the same thing you said.

55 freedombilly  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:56:59am

re: #49 MandyManners

Look for them--and, CNN--to do it also with Jindal.

Yup. Prop up the young, good looking, articulate conservative and then when he becomes a "face" of the party expose him for being a loon.

56 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:57:02am

Almost every Republican currently being promoted by Fox News is a creationist.

57 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:57:05am

re: #36 Max Darkside

Last Windows update toasted the ability to use the mouse within Word 2007. What to do... what to do... use a different computer I guess.

Do you think that was on purpose or they forgot it somehow?

Our office asked for volunteers to test Office 2007. I was not among the brave, but I've heard the complaints.

Remember, if in ain't broke, break it to make it better.

58 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:57:21am

re: #39 subsailor68

Bless you, and all the ladies silly - or brave - enough to marry guys like us.

:-)

These days, he's a unix geek. I'm beginning to think it's actually more stressful!

59 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:57:28am
60 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:57:42am

re: #51 OldLineTexan

He's still better off than Old Yeller.

61 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:57:55am

Namely: Huckabee, Pawlenty, Jindal, Santorum. All creationists.

62 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:58:08am

re: #60 Ford_Prefect

He's still better off than Old Yeller.

/sniff

63 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:58:26am

re: #27 Creeping Eruption

Foreign sales of the D-9 up?

That's the one product which increases sales by pancaking.

64 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:58:30am

re: #55 freedombilly

Yup. Prop up the young, good looking, articulate conservative and then when he becomes a "face" of the party expose him for being a loon.

It's coming.

65 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:58:35am

re: #44 yma o hyd

Aww - we do live in the 21st Century, not the 12th, don't we?

An amazing number of people somehow think things were better when things were rotten. What can I say?

I don't agree.

66 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:58:36am

re: #59 Kenneth

"There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation."
- Pierre Elliot Trudeau


Didn't he have a hot wife?

67 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:59:12am

re: #14 yma o hyd

Religious beliefs simply have no place in a political party.

A secular state is not a-religious, it simply does not give room in its legislation for anything based on religious views.

Every citizen is still free to cling to whatever religious text is his preferred one - but the tenets of that book won't find place in legislation.

All those who reject this - just think about a party for the introduction of Sharia law ... how can this be refused, if that party gets a majority, when there are no safeguards to keep religion out of politics?

There is almost no activity that man can undertake that is unaffected by his moral code.

The only question that remains is "what moral code will be applied?".

Many choose Christianity and some of them choose to be members of the Republican party. While we need to protect the first amendment, don't ask them to stop attempting to protect society of which they are a part from problem practices.

Here's what one of our founders had to say on the subject:

“We have staked the whole future of American civilization, not upon the power of government, far from it. We’ve staked the future of all our political institutions upon our capacity…to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God.”
James Madison, 1778 to the General Assembly of the State of Virginia
68 wrenchwench  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:59:19am

re: #52 MrSnuggles

It saddens me that social conservatism is being so nonchalantly tossed out the window when it has been fiscal liberalism that has hurt republicans so much. In case you have not noticed, the dems won the hispanic vote overwhelmingly. How are republicans ever going to get their votes if not via the common beliefs that abortion is wrong, gay rights are wrong, and God is good?

Hmmm....somehow the Democrats did it....

69 Max Darkside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:59:30am

re: #57 Silhouette

Do you think that was on purpose or they forgot it somehow?


Word was open overnight on that machine when the update was applied by MSFT and I think that toasted Word. Merely opening and then closing it cause Word to crash now on close. I could just poop.

70 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 10:59:31am

re: #52 MrSnuggles

It saddens me that social conservatism is being so nonchalantly tossed out the window when it has been fiscal liberalism that has hurt republicans so much. In case you have not noticed, the dems won the hispanic vote overwhelmingly. How are republicans ever going to get their votes if not via the common beliefs that abortion is wrong, gay rights are wrong, and God is good?

According to your POV, I hate God because I want the government to stay out of my bedroom?

IT'S NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB.

71 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:00:02am

4 minutes of "checking" and 5 refreshes later, taq pastes:
re: #10 Walter L. Newton

I think the Repubs should really spend some time figuring out what happened to their fiscal conservatism and stop wasting time pandering to the asses in the pews.

I don't go to church, but, wow, Walter. Kinda harsh there, doncha think?
-Taq

72 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:00:13am

re: #48 MandyManners

Would he try to outlaw BC for married people?

Mandy, my boss keeps reminding me that there are people in the California Republican party who think BC ought to be illegal, period. I always blink at that.

And no, these people are not all Catholics, either.

73 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:00:33am

re: #57 Silhouette

Do you think that was on purpose or they forgot it somehow?

Our office asked for volunteers to test Office 2007. I was not among the brave, but I've heard the complaints.

Remember, if in ain't broke, break it to make it better.


Simply go to the MS site and download the latest driver for the mouse..
It works..

74 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:01:03am

re: #70 MandyManners

According to your POV, I hate God because I want the government to stay out of my bedroom?

IT'S NOT THE GOVERNMENT'S JOB.

Actually it is the Gov'ts job...to stay out of the bedroom I mean.

75 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:01:12am

re: #58 Dianna

These days, he's a unix geek. I'm beginning to think it's actually more stressful!

Well, remind him not to debug with a pipe wrench.

:-)

76 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:01:26am

re: #72 Dianna

Mandy, my boss keeps reminding me that there are people in the California Republican party who think BC ought to be illegal, period. I always blink at that.

And no, these people are not all Catholics, either.

They need to mind their own business. Maybe get a hobby.

77 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:01:49am

re: #53 yma o hyd

He looks like one of those pretty men who think a successful career in politics is their due because they look like a film star (after lots of make-overs and otehr stuff I won't go into ...)

Makes me suspicious that they are total perverts underneath that crisp appearance.

78 MrSnuggles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:01:57am

re: #68 wrenchwench

The democrats did it by offering goodies and the promise of amnesty for all. You want the republicans to follow that same road?

79 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:01:58am

re: #52 MrSnuggles

It saddens me that social conservatism is being so nonchalantly tossed out the window when it has been fiscal liberalism that has hurt republicans so much. In case you have not noticed, the dems won the hispanic vote overwhelmingly. How are republicans ever going to get their votes if not via the common beliefs that abortion is wrong, gay rights are wrong, and God is good?

Um, it was fiscal conservatism that was lost since 2000. We have had social conservative spendthrifts in Congress, and a social conservative spendthrift as President. So, how did fiscal conservatism hurt us when we forgot it during those years? It hurt us because we forgot it! Why is Governor Palin popular in Alaska? It's not her social stances; it's her fiscal stances and stances on reforming Alaska's corrupt government that made her popular. Everytime fiscal restraint and governmental reform is practised, it wins!

80 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:02:05am

Top of the hour news, George Soros is testifying in front of Congress and talking about the evil of deregulation...

Wow... We really are there....

81 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:02:14am

re: #30 capitalist piglet

I would like to pose a question to everyone:

What is your all-time favorite line from The Sopranos? Mine is:

"I've got federal marshalls so far up my ass, I can taste Brylcreme."

"The hair apparent."

82 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:02:26am

re: #46 MandyManners

sodomy laws properly exist to prevent acts which "undermine the basic tenets of our society and the family"

I could speculate about his love life but, I won't.

We can synergize silently.

/but then I'd have to take a shower ... with Clorox

83 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:02:28am

re: #80 tfc3rid

Top of the hour news, George Soros is testifying in front of Congress and talking about the evil of deregulation...

Wow... We really are there....

WHAT?

84 Dirk Diggler  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:02:49am

Charles,

Santorum also believes that Americans have no constitutional right to privacy when it comes to sexual acts, and is rabidly homophobic...

While it may be the case that Santorum is homophobic, there is no constitutional "right to privacy".

85 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:02:54am

re: #59 Kenneth

"There's no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation."
- Pierre Elliot Trudeau

As much as I despise Trudeau and Trudeauism, I have to agree with him here because he is right.

86 MrSnuggles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:02:58am

re: #70 MandyManners

Do what you want in your bedroom, but Santorum was right. The very next step after that Texas case was a push for gay marriage in the courts. Give these people an inch and they take a light year.

87 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:03:27am

re: #52 MrSnuggles

Oh, man.

God may be good, but the state has only a little, narrow interest in the behavior of the individual.

So far as I am concerned, abortion in the first trimester is none of my affair. Gays should have exactly the same rights as anyone else - but I oppose and deride the notion of group rights - and most gay activities are no one's business but the people involved.

The social conservative agenda is just as irritating and wrong-headed as the leftist agenda, and just as interfering.

88 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:03:36am

re: #65 Dianna

An amazing number of people somehow think things were better when things were rotten. What can I say?

I don't agree.

A lot of people want to be 'governed', either by a swoon-making young empty suit who promises change (and they don't have to think about what that means) - or by those who fulminate against 'change', any change, and want to go back to the Middle Ages, where people also didn't have to think for themselves.

Why is it that so many are prepared to give up their freedom and their hard-won liberties, just to escape the work of actually engaging and using their brains?

I really don't get it!

89 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:03:53am

re: #83 MandyManners

WHAT?

Yeah, wasn't it regulation - in the form of the CRA - that got us into this mess?

90 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:04:02am

re: #51 OldLineTexan

Boomer is in rehab, working on childhood issue.

*pulling thumb out of mouth* ... How did you know?

91 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:04:29am

re: #89 subsailor68

Yeah, wasn't it regulation - in the form of the CRA - that got us into this mess?

I wanna' know if Soros is really testifying.

92 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:04:37am

re: #90 pre-Boomer Marine brat

*pulling thumb out of mouth* ... How did you know?

On the positive side, you were positively darling as Timmy's human sidekick.

93 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:04:54am

re: #80 tfc3rid

Top of the hour news, George Soros is testifying in front of Congress and talking about the evil of deregulation...

Wow... We really are there....

Where's Alice? I think we may be through the looking glass.

94 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:04:57am

re: #71 Taqiyyotomist

Got your rebuttal after my belated post, Walter. Understood. The wording did seem like you were saying people in pews were asses. I get your drift now.

95 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:05:08am

re: #71 Taqiyyotomist

I think the Repubs should really spend some time figuring out what happened to their fiscal conservatism and stop wasting time pandering to the asses in the pews.

I don't go to church, but, wow, Walter. Kinda harsh there, doncha think?
-Taq

Please see my re: #54 Walter L. Newton I was not referring to people in pews being "asses."

96 wright1  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:05:21am

re: #52 MrSnuggles

It saddens me that social conservatism is being so nonchalantly tossed out the window when it has been fiscal liberalism that has hurt republicans so much. In case you have not noticed, the dems won the hispanic vote overwhelmingly. How are republicans ever going to get their votes if not via the common beliefs that abortion is wrong, gay rights are wrong, and God is good?

You are about to get clobbered I suspect by some that disagree with you. Before that happens, I agree with you. Those blaming the GOP for losing this round of elections or being socially conservative seem to ignore that John McCain is practically a Democrat and hardly a strong backer of culture of life issues. In fact the right of the party could barely stand McCain. When the GOP wins, Reagan twice, and GWB twice, the agenda of culture of life is advanced. That still appears to be the recipe for victory.

97 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:05:22am

re: #83 MandyManners

WHAT?

Yes, hedge fund managers are in fron of Congress... Among which, Soros is there...

98 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:05:51am

re: #75 subsailor68

Well, remind him not to debug with a pipe wrench.

:-)

I keep waiting to hear he punch-kicked a monitor across a room.

99 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:06:29am

re: #66 Nevergiveup

Yes, very pretty and half his age.

100 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:06:30am

re: #91 MandyManners

I wanna' know if Soros is really testifying.

Maybe on CSPAN or CSPAN 2?

(Nope, just checked.)

101 JamesTKirk  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:06:31am

re: #78 MrSnuggles

The democrats did it by offering goodies and the promise of amnesty for all. You want the republicans to follow that same road?

McCain did offer amnesty. Look how far it got the bastard.

102 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:06:34am

re: #97 tfc3rid

Yes, hedge fund managers are in fron of Congress... Among which, Soros is there...

TV is covering Pres. Bush.

103 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:06:36am

re: #76 MandyManners

They need to mind their own business. Maybe get a hobby.

Minding other peoples' business is their hobby! That's why they're in politics.

104 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:06:59am

re: #91 MandyManners

I wanna' know if Soros is really testifying.

If so that is kind of frightening. He has tended to be a back stage kind of guy up till now. If he is coming out into the open it means that he feels very comfortable and is ready to start forcing his agenda.

105 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:07:05am

re: #95 Walter L. Newton

Please see my re: #54 Walter L. Newton I was not referring to people in pews being "asses."

Walter..Can i come to your playhouse for 2 nights and make 10 grand also?
I'm still astounded over what Roger pulls in..

106 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:07:05am

re: #86 MrSnuggles

Do what you want in your bedroom, but Santorum was right. The very next step after that Texas case was a push for gay marriage in the courts. Give these people an inch and they take a light year.

And there are a lot of conservatives that have no problem with this. That is exactly what some people here this morning are trying to say.

The Republicans need to get off of this social engineering based on certain religious beliefs and texts, and get back to the job of government.

107 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:07:20am

From today's NY Times...

"Hedge fund managers usually shun the spotlight. But five of them, billionaires all, are about to come under the glare on Capitol Hill.

The money managers — Philip Falcone, Kenneth C. Griffin, John Paulson, James Simons and George Soros — have been called by a House panel to discuss some of their trade secrets at a hearing on Thursday."

108 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:07:32am

I want to know why Soros is allowed in the USA, and is not being arrested for his attempt to destroy the USA.

*spit*

109 Haole  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:07:36am

I'm so sick and tired of every fuckin libtard/dem/socialist telling me who I should or shouldn't pick. I'm a big boy I can make my own decisions.

110 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:07:44am

re: #103 Dianna

Minding other peoples' business is their hobby! That's why they're in politics.

Those who want power are sometimes those who don't need it.

111 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:07:55am

re: #105 HoosierHoops

Walter..Can i come to your playhouse for 2 nights and make 10 grand also?
I'm still astounded over what Roger pulls in..

Ot - sure, what can you do, anything special?

112 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:08:01am

re: #88 yma o hyd

A lot of people want to be 'governed', either by a swoon-making young empty suit who promises change (and they don't have to think about what that means) - or by those who fulminate against 'change', any change, and want to go back to the Middle Ages, where people also didn't have to think for themselves.

Why is it that so many are prepared to give up their freedom and their hard-won liberties, just to escape the work of actually engaging and using their brains?

I really don't get it!

That certainly is frustrating.....

113 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:08:17am

re: #104 Ford_Prefect

If so that is kind of frightening. He has tended to be a back stage kind of guy up till now. If he is coming out into the open it means that he feels very comfortable and is ready to start forcing his agenda.

Well, he can just kiss my ass.

114 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:08:56am

re: #110 MandyManners

Those who want power are sometimes those who don't need it.

And are always the people who shouldn't have it.

115 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:08:58am

Just heard on the radio that O'Biden's son is deploying to Iraq?
Wasn't O'Biden claiming his son was in Iraq during the race? Was he there and came back or what?

116 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:09:07am

re: #86 MrSnuggles

Do what you want in your bedroom, but Santorum was right. The very next step after that Texas case was a push for gay marriage in the courts. Give these people an inch and they take a light year.

The case cited was from 1965. Griswold is the case that allowed unmarried people to buy birthcontrol.

The Texas case was just a while after that.

117 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:09:08am

re: #113 MandyManners

Very erudite.

118 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:09:35am

re: #113 MandyManners

Well, he can just kiss my ass.

Oooo, oooo... Me first! Me first!

119 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:09:37am

re: #117 MandyManners

Very erudite.

Gonna ding yourself up?

120 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:09:38am

there are easier ways....

121 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:09:41am

re: #110 MandyManners

Those who want power are sometimes those who don't need it.

Spot on! I've always felt better with folks who are uncomfortable with power, but comfortable with service.

(Shame the phrase hen's teeth comes to mind.)

122 J.S.  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:10:04am

re: #85 Honorary Yooper

It's a slogan (just how far does that get one? think about it...does that mean that raping small children in one's bedroom is beyond the power of state intervention?)

123 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:10:15am

Good afternoon LGF Friends. My daughter is taking me here tonight - looks fun, eh?

124 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:10:19am

re: #115 anotherindyfilmguy

Just heard on the radio that O'Biden's son is deploying to Iraq?
Wasn't O'Biden claiming his son was in Iraq during the race? Was he there and came back or what?

If I am not mistaken, his son is a Lawyer in some branch of the Military. He was in the process of deploying similar to Palin's son.

125 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:10:20am

re: #67 eschew_obfuscation

That is what one can stake one's personal life on, no discussion about that.

However - no country can legislate for the tenets of particular religions.
Otherwise you'd have to discriminate against whole groups of people just because they do not agree with your particular interpretation of when, for example, Easter should be celebrated ...

That falls behind the achievements of the Enlightenment. You might as well establish a theocracy - which, btw, is strictly against Christian belief.

The point is that nobody must be discriminated against for their religious beliefs (or lack of them) - and thus, while they hopefully influence your behaviour, they should not be translated into general legislation.
Abortion being a case in point.

126 IlyaUnion  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:10:43am

More taxes will solve this? I don't think so.

127 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:10:46am

re: #88 yma o hyd

Me, neither.

I guess it's easier to leave one's brain steeping in the tea pot. It's warm and soothing and dark.

128 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:10:56am

WSJ was liveblogging the hearings...

Lot of BS back and forth but Soros was there and adding his two cents... I'm sure the Dems were loving him up like they Reps. loved all over Roger Clemens a few months ago...

129 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:10:57am

re: #109 Haole

I'm so sick and tired of every fuckin libtard/dem/socialist telling me who I should or shouldn't pick. I'm a big boy I can make my own decisions.

You are not competent to make those decisions. That's what the government is for.

//

130 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:11:15am

re: #123 mama winger

I can see the Bradley Center from my office. Have fun.

131 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:11:19am

re: #122 J.S.

It's a slogan (just how far does that get one? think about it...does that mean that raping small children in one's bedroom is beyond the power of state intervention?)

Oh dear. My post seems silly coming after that one. I should have read upthread. Sorry.

132 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:11:31am

re: #107 tfc3rid

From today's NY Times...

"Hedge fund managers usually shun the spotlight. But five of them, billionaires all, are about to come under the glare on Capitol Hill.

The money managers — Philip Falcone, Kenneth C. Griffin, John Paulson, James Simons and George Soros — have been called by a House panel to discuss some of their trade secrets at a hearing on Thursday."

Trade secrets? He's a fucking thieving Kapo.

133 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:11:34am

re: #117 MandyManners

Very erudite.

or at least ... erudite

*grin*

134 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:11:52am

re: #111 Walter L. Newton

Ot - sure, what can you do, anything special?


Oh..you want Talent? crap..
I do have a trick shot..behind the back with just a little spin to kiss the ball off the backboard.
That's all I got Walter..
*hangs head in shame*
LOL

135 IlyaUnion  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:11:53am

re: #56 Charles

Almost every Republican currently being promoted by Fox News is a creationist.


Why do you think that is? Rupert Murdoch doesn't strike me as a creationist.

136 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:12:10am

You know things are grim when the best thing you can say is:

Wow! The DOW's only down 7 right now.

Sigh.

137 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:12:16am

re: #114 Ford_Prefect

And are always the people who shouldn't have it.

Serious potty-training issues.

138 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:12:18am

re: #130 Creeping Eruption

I can see the Bradley Center from my office. Have fun.

Really ? I'll wave ! :)

139 FrogMarch  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:12:27am

re: #80 tfc3rid

Top of the hour news, George Soros is testifying in front of Congress and talking about the evil of deregulation...

Wow... We really are there....

Link? what news station?
George Soros is the giant puppet master behind the left-wing/progressive fascist movement.

140 Creeping Eruption  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:12:31am

re: #138 mama winger

:)

141 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:12:37am

Here is the WSJ link

Hedge Fund Live Blog - WSJ

142 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:12:54am

re: #135 IlyaUnion

Why do you think that is?

Because most of the Republican Party is.

143 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:13:31am

re: #96 wright1

I will remind you that Reagan was not actually a social conservative. Check out some legislation he signed as Governor of California.

144 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:13:31am

re: #132 MandyManners

Trade secrets? He's a fucking thieving Kapo.

Mandy, you really need to stop holding your feelings in.. it's just not healthy./

145 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:13:35am

re: #125 yma o hyd

That falls behind the achievements of the Enlightenment. You might as well establish a theocracy - which, btw, is strictly against Christian belief.

Someone put that on a billboard, please. I wish there was a SuperBold button.

146 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:13:56am

re: #139 FrogMarch

Link? what news station?
George Soros is the giant puppet master behind the left-wing/progressive fascist movement.

Listening to ABC Radio... They played a clip of him and that accent...

147 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:14:18am

re: #122 J.S.

It's a slogan (just how far does that get one? think about it...does that mean that raping small children in one's bedroom is beyond the power of state intervention?)

Apples and oranges. The state has no business telling two concenting adults what they can do with each other in the bedroom. Involve a minor, and it is a crime, period, full stop. Ditto for the non-concential stuff.

148 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:14:26am

Okay, fine - what is BC?

149 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:14:26am

re: #135 IlyaUnion

Why do you think that is? Rupert Murdoch doesn't strike me as a creationist.

Because the GOP has a serious problem. The party has embraced fundamental Christianity to the detriment of individual liberties.

150 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:14:30am

bbiab before I pop a vessel

151 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:14:36am

Oh dear. Are we eating our own again today? I guess I didn't really need to stop at Arby's. :)

152 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:14:38am

re: #144 Ford_Prefect

Mandy, you really need to stop holding your feelings in.. it's just not healthy./

She is maintaining her sass even with a sinus headache. I couldn't be prouder.

153 anotherindyfilmguy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:15:03am

re: #110 MandyManners

Those who want power are sometimes those who don't need it.

I'd say those who want power are those who least deserve it...

154 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:15:04am

:(

155 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:15:08am

re: #146 tfc3rid

Listening to ABC Radio... They played a clip of him and that accent...

Gag! That accent. It'd be like hearing him and Henry Kissinger trying to do the old Abbott and Costello routine "Who's on First."

Yuck.

156 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:15:39am

re: #148 Spare O'Lake

Okay, fine - what is BC?

Nirth control.

157 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:15:50am

re: #149 Charles

Teaching creationism is against individual liberties?

158 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:16:22am

re: #127 Dianna

Me, neither.

I guess it's easier to leave one's brain steeping in the tea pot. It's warm and soothing and dark.

Nice image!

159 FrogMarch  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:16:48am

re: #141 tfc3rid

Here is the WSJ link

Hedge Fund Live Blog - WSJ

Ack!

Waxman closes the session with big smooches to the hedge fund managers, the combined billionaire superwattage of which has left the Committee presumably blinded by the fundraising possibilities. Here is what he says: “Congress usually has trade associations here, and they speak in their self-interest. That’s why we wanted to have you here, to get an unfiltered response.” Oh, boy. If Waxman believed the managers were not speaking in their own self-interest, it just highlights how much more Washington needs to understand how Wall Street communicates.

Democrats scare me.

While (some) republicans obsess over gay marriage and religious-political agendas, we are sinking.

160 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:17:03am

In other news, Bill Gates is being questioned by the low-level employees at Microsoft.
//

161 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:17:08am

re: #157 WrathofG-d

Teaching creationism is against individual liberties?

Nope. But it's not exactly a great thing to have in the platform when you're trying to define the Republican party, ya know.

162 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:17:19am

re: #122 J.S.

No, because that's a clear crime.

However, what two consenting adults do in a private place (provided the bruises fade after a week, and so on) is absolutely no one's business but their own.

"I don't give a damn what people do, provided they don't do it in the streets and frighten the horses."

163 jorline  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:17:22am

Question for the group.

Reagan was a very religious man...was he a creationist?
Any facts on his beliefs?

This is not a set-up question...I don't know the answer.

164 Killer Tomato  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:17:27am

Sununu's going to be out of work. What do you all think of him?

165 J.S.  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:17:29am

re: #147 Honorary Yooper

Exactly. That was my point -- too frequently, all the caveats will be thrown out (such as, well, what about minors? what about sadism? what about rape? etc, etc. -- so, the more nuanced items (that is, those items where you'd wish to see government involvement) gets thrown out -- my point being that the slogan "the government has no place in the bedrooms of the nation" refers only to certain cases, not all).

166 jorline  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:18:33am

re: #136 subsailor68

You know things are grim when the best thing you can say is:

Wow! The DOW's only down 7 right now.

Sigh.

I never thought I would be happy to see a flat market, but...............

167 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:18:54am

re: #156 debutaunt

Nirth control.

Whew, thanks...for a minute there I thought it was something enjoyable.

168 J.S.  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:18:57am

re: #162 Dianna

Sodomy was a "clear crime" in 1967 in Canada when Trudeau made his statement.

169 wright1  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:18:59am

re: #143 Dianna

I will remind you that Reagan was not actually a social conservative. Check out some legislation he signed as Governor of California.

But he governed as one as President.

170 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:19:15am

re: #156 debutaunt

Nirth control.

Thanks, I was wondering myself. Not a common initialism in my experience, this is the first time I've run across it.

171 calcajun  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:19:17am

Yep. Time to hit the Army-Navy Surplus stores and stock up on the food and ammo.

Sigh.

172 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:19:19am

re: #166 jorline

I never thought I would be happy to see a flat market, but...............

As I say (probably too often) - from your lips to God's ear. At least right now.

:-)

173 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:19:23am

www.weeklystandard.com...] target="_blank">

The Taliban is urging the United Nations, the European Union, and the Red Cross to intervene to halt the execution of three Taliban fighters on death row. "We strongly request the U.N., the EU, the Red Cross and human rights groups to earnestly prevent this barbaric act," the Taliban said in a statement on their website, Reuters reported today.

Predictably, the United Nations and the European Union oppose the executions, "citing concern about the standards of judicial fairness."

One wonders if the irony is lost on the Taliban, the United Nations, and the European Union. The Taliban is guilty of some of the most atrocious crimes in recent history. One doesn't have to walk back very far to find such crimes.

For instance, yesterday two Taliban fighters poured acid on the faces of four schoolgirls in Kandahar. Their crime? Who knows. Some of the girls were wearing the full burkas. Perhaps because they went to school?

174 guitarguy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:19:33am

re: #5 Charles

Rick Santorum on Fox News again, advocating a hardcore return to social conservatism.

Santorum is a very active creationist, one of the most vocal supporters of the "intelligent design" hooey:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

re: #149 Charles

Because the GOP has a serious problem. The party has embraced fundamental Christianity to the detriment of individual liberties.

At the risk of being labeled a 'sock-puppet' of Charles (on other websites), I will merely state: I have nothing to add.

175 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:19:47am

re: #134 HoosierHoops

Oh..you want Talent? crap..
I do have a trick shot..behind the back with just a little spin to kiss the ball off the backboard. That's all I got Walter..*hangs head in shame* LOL

Big whoop. I can sink a ball in the right corner pocket (to the right of where I am standing) by kicking the cue ball up table toward the far right corner pocket, kicking it back to me (and pass me) to sink the target ball. :)

How about running the table one handed? How about running the table, one handed, don't touch the rail. My 3rd wife could do those two. She use to piss the guys off, progressively working up from a straight game to the trick stuff.

176 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:20:12am

re: #157 WrathofG-d

Teaching creationism is against individual liberties?

Yes, it is. Whose creationism are you going to teach? What religion is this endorsing? It's very clear. It's intended to promote fundamental Christianity, and by teaching it to everyone's children -- which is exactly what Santorum tried to do with his amendment to NCLB -- you are violating their civil liberties, and the rights of their parents to determine what religion their children are exposed to. If any.

Not to mention that it's anti-scientific, and destroys critical thinking skills, handicapping children and damaging American science education.

177 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:20:16am
178 eschew_obfuscation  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:20:21am

re: #125 yma o hyd

That is what one can stake one's personal life on, no discussion about that.

However - no country can legislate for the tenets of particular religions.
Otherwise you'd have to discriminate against whole groups of people just because they do not agree with your particular interpretation of when, for example, Easter should be celebrated ...

That falls behind the achievements of the Enlightenment. You might as well establish a theocracy - which, btw, is strictly against Christian belief.


The point is that nobody must be discriminated against for their religious beliefs (or lack of them) - and thus, while they hopefully influence your behaviour, they should not be translated into general legislation.
Abortion being a case in point.

I understand your point and mostly agree. It's a very thin line we walk, but we already have legislated for the tenets of Christianity while refraining from establishing a state religion. Though not particular to Christianity, laws against murder/manslaughter are one example. Many muslim countries freely allow honor killings.

The question then becomes, "how do we maintain morality as a society without formally establishing a state religion as our moral code?".

179 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:20:23am

re: #167 Spare O'Lake

Whew, thanks...for a minute there I thought it was something enjoyable.

The "c" didn't make any sense, did it.

180 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:20:26am

Seriously, though, doesn't half of Congress work for Soros? That they should question HIM. I bet every (D) in the room is quaking, hoping he doesn't choke them from across the room with a wave of his hand.

181 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:20:36am

re: #151 mama winger

Oh dear. Are we eating our own again today? I guess I didn't really need to stop at Arby's. :)

We could always retreat to extreme civility....

Not that you need help with that - you're always nice. I just periodically forget to be charitable.

182 freedombilly  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:20:38am

re: #173 Kenneth

I urge the Taliban to go to hell.

183 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:20:55am

re: #141 tfc3rid

Here is the WSJ link

Hedge Fund Live Blog - WSJ

One gem from that link:
"1:25 Rep. Cummings says the five managers are “richer than God,” and promises not to disclose their individual compensation, but each of them made $1 billion last year on average, he says. He notes that they are not taxed like normal citizens because they are taxed at lower capital-gains rates."

184 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:21:00am

re: #149 Charles

Because the GOP has a serious problem. The party has embraced fundamental Christianity to the detriment of individual liberties.

Not that it matters, but I think that it happened the other way around. The fundamental Christians have taken over the GOP much the way the Secular Left have done to the Democrat party. The secular fiscal-conservatives have no where to go.

But the result is the same.

185 MrSnuggles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:21:07am

re: #106 Walter L. Newton

You have no problem with activist judges deciding at their own whim what is and what is not constitutional? If gays passed legislation that gave them the right to demand national affirmation of their relationships via government sanction then I would have nothing left to say. But they are undermining the institutions that have made this nation great, and you have no problem with it? It is at the core of conservatism that the court system is supposed to rule based on what the Constitution SAYS not on what they WANT IT to say.

186 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:21:09am

re: #149 Charles

Because the GOP has a serious problem. The party has embraced fundamental Christianity to the detriment of individual liberties.

I agree, Charles. I feel the same way about "conservatism". I understand that the basic Judeo-Christian ideals have heavily influenced conservatism, but sometimes that aspect becomes too strong and blinds people to the idea of individual liberties.

187 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:21:29am

re: #182 freedombilly

God bless the US & Canadian troops who are helping to send them there.

188 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:21:37am

re: #158 yma o hyd

Nice image!

Borrowed from my friend Ruth, who frequently works with people who worry her.

189 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:21:50am

re: #180 Taqiyyotomist

Seriously, though, doesn't half of Congress work for Soros? That they should question HIM. I bet every (D) in the room is quaking, hoping he doesn't choke them from across the room with a wave of his hand.

Darth Soros.

190 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:22:45am

re: #156 debutaunt

Nirth control.

What do you have against Nirths?

191 freedombilly  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:22:50am

re: #187 Kenneth

God bless the US & Canadian troops who are helping to send them there.

I could not have said it any better myself.

192 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:23:03am

re: #163 jorline

He probably was, I wouldn't be surprised.

The only link I can find is from a creationist site....
Presidential Support for Creationism

193 Sparkizzy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:23:06am

OK, where was this Reaganomics side of Bush for the last two terms?

194 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:23:24am

re: #190 Ford_Prefect

What do you have against Nirths?

I had a nirth football once. Impossible to control.

195 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:23:26am

re: #170 Moe Katz

BC Glasses. Courtesy US Navy.

196 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:23:36am

re: #176 Charles

Yes, it is. Whose creationism are you going to teach? What religion is this endorsing? It's very clear. It's intended to promote fundamental Christianity, and by teaching it to everyone's children -- which is exactly what Santorum tried to do with his amendment to NCLB -- you are violating their civil liberties, and the rights of their parents to determine what religion their children are exposed to. If any.

Not to mention that it's anti-scientific, and destroys critical thinking skills, handicapping children and damaging American science education.


When you teach intellegent design in a science class you end up with students that can't design intellegently.

197 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:24:02am

re: #168 J.S.

Sodomy was a "clear crime" in 1967 in Canada when Trudeau made his statement.

It should not have been. Most laws about who may do what, and with which, and to whom should never have been the business of a government. Any government.

Frankly, the only circumstance in which sodomy should be a crime is when it's non-consensual. Which - before you become pedantic - includes when a minor or a person who otherwise cannot give consent is involved.

198 guitarguy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:24:08am

re: #163 jorline

Question for the group.

Reagan was a very religious man...was he a creationist?
Any facts on his beliefs?

This is not a set-up question...I don't know the answer.

Try these sites:
[Link: www.icr.org...]

[Link: www.rae.org...]

[Link: www.positiveatheism.org...]

199 Max Darkside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:24:11am

re: #73 HoosierHoops

Simply go to the MS site and download the latest driver for the mouse..
It works..

It's not the mouse, it is Word. Excel is ok, the mouse works for everything else. Office Diagnostics has no solution. Even if I start Word, not use the mouse and Alt-F4 it closed, it crashes. It needs a bailout I guess.

200 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:24:27am

re: #163 jorline

Question for the group.

Reagan was a very religious man...was he a creationist?
Any facts on his beliefs?

This is not a set-up question...I don't know the answer.

Whatever he was, he kept his views private. That's the whole point and why the Republicans will sink into oblivion if they keep promoting creationists, ID, nutters.

201 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:24:45am

re: #195 Taqiyyotomist

BC Glasses. Courtesy US Navy.

Sorry, don't get it :(

202 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:25:04am

re: #199 Max Darkside

It's not the mouse, it is Word. Excel is ok, the mouse works for everything else. Office Diagnostics has no solution. Even if I start Word, not use the mouse and Alt-F4 it closed, it crashes. It needs a bailout I guess.

SHOOT YER COMPUTER.

203 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:25:16am

re: #175 Walter L. Newton

Is pool a sport?
*running*
/ the finely tuned athletes that play pool..Cig's and booze.

204 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:25:24am

re: #194 subsailor68

I had a nirth football once. Impossible to control.

And down right deadly when they got wet.

205 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:25:24am

This is my take, for what it's worth, which may be very negligible.

A lot of folks aligned themselves with the Republican Party after 9-11 because we were the party that seemed to 'get it' on national defense. Some came from backgrounds that were Democrat or a-political or even quite liberal. They did not come to the Republicans because of our stance on social issues. They came because we are under attack.

Naturally, no one leaves who they are behind when they join something. You come with your background and your experiences. Many who admired the Republican position on national defense and the military were not so enamored with some of the other positions .

This is why I think we are having these tensions now - you have the folks like my who have been active in the Republican Party for thirty years and are conservative across the spectrum ( the old timers if you will) and people that I call the 'Post 9-11'ers. Some of this latter group seem astonished that when they joined the conservative Party, there were *gasp* strong conservatives already there. :)

We 've been saving you a place and we are glad to have you. But please do not tell us that we ourselves no longer belong. We've been holding down this fort for decades.

That's about it, I guess. Thanks for your time.

206 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:25:27am

re: #190 Ford_Prefect

What do you have against Nirths?

Well, they like to get their little noses under the tent flap and all hell breaks out. Keep 'em controlled, I say.

207 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:25:30am

re: #201 Moe Katz

Sorry, don't get it :(

That's the purpose of the glasses.

208 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:25:52am

re: #161 subsailor68

Well, that is your opinion.

I don't necessarily believe Creation should be taught in schools, and I wholeheartedly do not believe that the D.I. should have any say in a school curriculum.

But with that being said, I have a huge problem with people's beliefs becoming automatically offlimits, and unacceptable in public. The marching towards some made-up division of Church & State for Government is actually just being used to discount any beliefs that have their basis in Religion.

For example. If a person has a rabid belief in homsexuality, he or she can put a poster advocating it in their classroom, teach it in their class, or otherwise involve it within their Governmental action. However if someone has an opposite belief toward homosexuality, they cannot hang a sign that states that Homosexuality is a sin!

Thus one belief is given greater credence within society, solely based on the fact that the other belief could be argued to be rooted in religion. Thus, as a society we are forced to accept one belief over the other.

The shell of religion is being used to stop freedom of speech.

209 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:25:53am

re: #169 wright1

Not really. But he paid lip-service to the concept, just enough to keep the target voting bloc in line.

Cutting federal funding for abortion overseas was more a proper fiscal move than anything else.

210 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:25:55am

re: #201 Moe Katz

Sorry, don't get it :(

OMG! Those look just like the "standard" glasses you'd get if the Navy filled your prescription (especially in boot camp).

211 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:26:14am
212 rightside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:26:39am

re: #201 Moe Katz
OMG! LOL!

Birth Control, or BV glasses are those which the Navy will give you for free. Try getting laid wearing those...Hence, BC glasses!

213 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:27:09am

re: #206 debutaunt

Well, they like to get their little noses under the tent flap and all hell breaks out. Keep 'em controlled, I say.

Quite amusing.

214 rightside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:27:17am

re: #212 rightside
Grr.. BV=BC

215 guitarguy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:27:18am

IMHO....

If candidates have to pass a James Dobson/Bill Donahue 'smell-test', we're in trouble.

216 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:27:31am

re: #176 Charles

Yes, it is. Whose creationism are you going to teach? What religion is this endorsing? It's very clear. It's intended to promote fundamental Christianity, and by teaching it to everyone's children -- which is exactly what Santorum tried to do with his amendment to NCLB -- you are violating their civil liberties, and the rights of their parents to determine what religion their children are exposed to. If any.

Not to mention that it's anti-scientific, and destroys critical thinking skills, handicapping children and damaging American science education.

And not to forget that this opens the door to introduce other religious POVs into the school curriculum. If Christian fundamentalists can do this, who is to nay-say the wishes of Wahabites in regard to the teachings of Islam as valid alternative to, say, history?

217 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:27:36am

re: #203 HoosierHoops

Is pool a sport?
*running*
/ the finely tuned athletes that play pool..Cig's and booze.

It's at least equal to bowling on the 'sport' list.

218 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:27:57am

re: #207 MandyManners

That's the purpose of the glasses.

The unattractiveness?

219 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:28:17am

re: #218 Moe Katz

The unattractiveness?

NO SEX.

220 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:28:18am

I just found out that the office I volunteered to run for in my local area went uncontested... Just a Dem running against nobody...

Wow... Incredible... Democracy (in)action...

221 Lincolntf  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:28:30am

I don't see what the problem would be if people would just act reasonably. I learned about multiple cultures in grade-school. When studying India, we learned about Hinduism, when studying the USSR we learned about Communism. Didn't turn me into a beef-eschewing Stalinite. When teaching about various cultures (including Western ones) then the fact that Creationism is part of various Judeo-Christian faiths should certainly be part of the curriculum. I'm not saying it should be taught as "science", of course. A little bit of tolerance (especially these days when multi-culturalism is the sine qua non of education) from everyone would be a welcome change.

222 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:28:49am

re: #201 Moe Katz

Here's a definition from Urban Dictionary.

223 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:29:02am

re: #212 rightside

OMG! LOL!

Birth Control, or BV glasses are those which the Navy will give you for free. Try getting laid wearing those...Hence, BC glasses!

Now I get it. But it's all a matter of fashion, to be serious. Those Buddy Holly glasses that are in style at the moment are plug-ugly to me.

224 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:29:41am

re: #221 Lincolntf

I don't see what the problem would be if people would just act reasonably. I learned about multiple cultures in grade-school. When studying India, we learned about Hinduism, when studying the USSR we learned about Communism. Didn't turn me into a beef-eschewing Stalinite. When teaching about various cultures (including Western ones) then the fact that Creationism is part of various Judeo-Christian faiths should certainly be part of the curriculum. I'm not saying it should be taught as "science", of course. A little bit of tolerance (especially these days when multi-culturalism is the sine qua non of education) from everyone would be a welcome change.

I'm all for teaching various creation beliefs.

225 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:29:46am

re: #222 Taqiyyotomist

Here's a definition from Urban Dictionary.

Ha! I'd never heard that expression before.

226 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:30:23am

re: #215 guitarguy

IMHO....

If candidates have to pass a James Dobson/Bill Donahue 'smell-test', we're in trouble.

Someone had better "smell-test" Republican candidates...because the 'media' will.

Look what we got when the Democrats quit sniffing...

227 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:30:24am

re: #224 MandyManners

I'm all for teaching various creation beliefs.

In comparative religion class. Tortoises and elephants.

228 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:31:09am

re: #227 Moe Katz

In comparative religion class. Tortoises and elephants.

It's turtles all the way down.

229 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:31:30am

re: #228 Honorary Yooper

It's turtles all the way down.

So they say....

230 Max Darkside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:31:31am

re: #202 MandyManners

SHOOT YER COMPUTER.

I think that's a good ide... [BANG!]

/buzzt... crackle...

231 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:31:33am

re: #208 WrathofG-d

I see, and agree with, what you're sayin'. My only point was wondering if it was something that needed to be included in the platform as we rebuild.

I'm sorry if I appeared to be downplaying your larger point. It wasn't my intention.

232 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:31:33am

re: #221 Lincolntf

I don't see what the problem would be if people would just act reasonably. I learned about multiple cultures in grade-school. When studying India, we learned about Hinduism, when studying the USSR we learned about Communism. Didn't turn me into a beef-eschewing Stalinite. When teaching about various cultures (including Western ones) then the fact that Creationism is part of various Judeo-Christian faiths should certainly be part of the curriculum. I'm not saying it should be taught as "science", of course. A little bit of tolerance (especially these days when multi-culturalism is the sine qua non of education) from everyone would be a welcome change.

No one cares if creationism is discussed in a comparative religion course, or a philosophy course.

But that is NOT what people like Santorum, Jindal, and the Discovery Institute are promoting. They're trying to get this stuff taught in science classes, as science.

Which it is not.

233 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:32:02am

re: #201 Moe Katz

No female will accept a date from a guy wearing those glasses. Should you be a female wearing those glasses, no one will ever make the slightest pass at you.

234 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:32:06am

re: #176 Charles

As to your 1st statement, as we have already exhausted your second point:

Teaching evolution to a child that parents who have Religious beliefs that teach them otherwise in public school also "violates the rights of their parents to determine what religion their children are exposed to" insofar that it forces their children to be taught un-christian beliefs, and forces them to learn what they would probably consider a form of G-dlessness.

I do not defend teaching Creation in schools, and agree that these particular groups that are pushing for "I.D", have a hidden agenda. They should be kept very far away from this discussion. However that being said, I understand the Religious person's argument. Thus I would probably just not teach evolution either.

235 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:32:09am

re: #224 MandyManners

I'm all for teaching various creation beliefs.

In the right class setting, sure. Like a philosophy class. But not in a science class.

236 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:32:52am

re: #228 Honorary Yooper

It's turtles all the way down.

Actually, I believe the bottom turtle is standing on a buffalo.

237 wright1  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:33:00am

re: #209 Dianna

Not really. But he paid lip-service to the concept, just enough to keep the target voting bloc in line.

Cutting federal funding for abortion overseas was more a proper fiscal move than anything else.

I do not agree with that but I will ask you this, do you acknowledge that Roanld Reagan was a deeply religious man who gave thanks to his Creator in earnest?

238 J.S.  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:33:18am

re: #197 Dianna

All I can say, is "O brother", to your statement: "Most laws about who may do what, and with which, and to whom should never have been the business of a government". (I wish to diagree with that sentiment -- however, it's beyond the scope of this blog to get into all the details. So, allow me to just conclude by reminding all and sundry that Canada permits marriage upon homosexuals, and homosexuals are protected under Canada's anti-hate speech codes, and that I have absolutley no qualms about homosexual marriage, nor about the requirement for all teachers -- including in elementary school -- to accept and promote gay marriage, gay lifestyles, etc., etc. End of topic.)

239 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:33:24am

re: #234 WrathofG-d

As to your 1st statement, as we have already exhausted your second point:

Teaching evolution to a child that parents who have Religious beliefs that teach them otherwise in public school also "violates the rights of their parents to determine what religion their children are exposed to" insofar that it forces their children to be taught un-christian beliefs, and forces them to learn what they would probably consider a form of G-dlessness.

I do not defend teaching Creation in schools, and agree that these particular groups that are pushing for "I.D", have a hidden agenda. They should be kept very far away from this discussion. However that being said, I understand the Religious person's argument. Thus I would probably just not teach evolution either.

And we have a vote for ignorance!

240 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:33:36am

re: #234 WrathofG-d

How is evolutionary theory an "unChristian belief"? Please explain.

241 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:33:39am

re: #233 Dianna

No female will accept a date from a guy wearing those glasses. Should you be a female wearing those glasses, no one will ever make the slightest pass at you.

What if they had money? Lots of it.

242 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:33:44am

re: #233 Dianna

No female will accept a date from a guy wearing those glasses. Should you be a female wearing those glasses, no one will ever make the slightest pass at you.

I respectfully disagree. She may not get a very good male, but she will get one.

I see ugly, poor guys by themselves all the time. I see violently unattractive women with children by the stroller-load.

243 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:33:47am

re: #232 Charles

No one cares if creationism is discussed in a comparative religion course, or a philosophy course.

But that is NOT what people like Santorum, Jindal, and the Discovery Institute are promoting. They're trying to get this stuff taught in science classes, as science.

Which it is not.

I try to stay out of this and in this case I agree with Charles... Science with science and religion with religion...

However, they do teach Global Warming/Climate change in science class...

244 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:33:50am

re: #178 eschew_obfuscation

I think you in the USA have done that very well indeed!

There is no point in wishing to delete the common history of the Western cultures which is based on the Judeao-Christian tradition.
Thats the way it is - and we all have the historic examples in memory ( I hope!) of how states treat their subjects - not citizens! - when they base their morality on something else.

245 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:34:02am

re: #236 Charles

Actually, I believe the bottom turtle is standing on a buffalo.

Which buffalo? The city, or one of the Bills?

246 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:34:23am

re: #233 Dianna

No female will accept a date from a guy wearing those glasses. Should you be a female wearing those glasses, no one will ever make the slightest pass at you.

If they became fashionable and a few stars began wearing them that wouldn't be so. It's all fashion. Those are no uglier than the Buddy Holly frames that everyone seems to want this week.

247 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:34:33am

re: #233 Dianna

No female will accept a date from a guy wearing those glasses. Should you be a female wearing those glasses, no one will ever make the slightest pass at you.

See, now there you are wrong. Unless she is wearing them on her chest, most guys won't even notice.

248 Iron Fist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:34:55am

re: #110 MandyManners

It is really one of the biggest flaws in the American system of Government. People who want power are almost always people who should be kept as far away from power as possible. The more they want it, the more potentially dangerous they are when they get it.

It'd probably be better to select Congress by lot, kind of like a Jury, where people who don't want the power of the office are forced to accept it for a limited time. That wasn't practical when our country was set up, though, and there's no way you could make that great a reform to the Government now.

The American system of government is not a very good one. It just happens to be superior to any other system of government ever established in the 5000+ years governments have existed.

Hopefully it'll be good enough to survive the next 4-8 years.

249 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:35:17am

re: #241 rawmuse

What if they had money? Lots of it.

A really big wallet?

250 rightside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:35:25am

re: #246 Moe Katz
I thought everyone wanted Sarah Palin frames now?

251 Big Print  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:35:30am

Can't we compromise?

While hot lesbians perform their sex acts in public, I'll read aloud a pamplet on creationisim, and the audience will get community service credit.

252 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:35:49am

re: #249 MandyManners

A really big wallet?

One of the Three Big Things women like.

/ducking

253 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:36:09am

re: #231 subsailor68

No need to appologize.

Personally the thrust of the Conservative party would be to undo the affect liberal decision have had on our schools, and create a place where neither religious, or un-religious values are pushed on the kids.

The problem that has been created however is the one that I discussed above. The system is set up where religious opinions are automatically being put "off limits", and discredited. With this environment, it is no wonder that our society is becoming more g-dless, more liberal, and more screwed up.

254 alkmyst  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:36:18am

Just in case nobody else posted it yet...

A must read from John Perazzo of FontPageMag

255 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:36:18am

re: #250 rightside

I thought everyone wanted Sarah Palin frames now?

Oh, that's so last week!

(just kidding)

256 rightside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:36:19am

re: #247 Ford_Prefect


True dat!

257 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:36:19am

re: #219 MandyManners

NO SEX.

Well, at least none that doesn't involve just one's self and some privacy, anyway.

258 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:36:26am

re: #248 Iron Fist

It'd probably be better to select Congress by lot, kind of like a Jury, where people who don't want the power of the office are forced to accept it for a limited time.

Who knows what kind of idiots we'd get?

259 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:36:28am

There once was a gay from Khartoom,
Who took a lesbian up to his room,
They argued all night,
Over who had the right,
To do what and with which and to whom.

260 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:36:41am

re: #250 rightside

I thought everyone wanted Sarah Palin frames now?

That was last week.

261 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:36:45am

re: #252 OldLineTexan

One of the Three Big Things women like.

/ducking

OK just so I can lie? What's the third?

262 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:37:03am

re: #252 OldLineTexan

One of the Three Big Things women like.

/ducking

OK, I can account for 2. What is the 3rd?

263 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:37:17am

re: #184 rawmuse

Not that it matters, but I think that it happened the other way around. The fundamental Christians have taken over the GOP much the way the Secular Left have done to the Democrat party. The secular fiscal-conservatives have no where to go.

But the result is the same.

You're right, on both accounts.

264 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:37:24am

re: #240 Honorary Yooper

I don't necessarily believe it is, and I don't make dogma decisions regarding Christianity as I am not a Christian. My only point is that those that are fighting evolution being taught, would most likely believe that it was.

265 guitarguy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:37:29am

re: #226 OldLineTexan

Someone had better "smell-test" Republican candidates...because the 'media' will.

Understood.
And you actually help make my point.
The media would have a field-day if we were to nominate a creationist.
If the GOP were to nominate someone who wasn't sure if the Earth was only 6,000 years-old (or older)......they'd become a punchline.

266 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:37:30am

re: #262 rawmuse

OK, I can account for 2. What is the 3rd?

Shit am I glad I wasn't the only one to ask?

267 freedombilly  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:37:31am

re: #259 Kenneth

ROTFLMAO!

268 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:37:42am

re: #250 rightside

I thought everyone wanted Sarah Palin frames now?

269 capitalist piglet  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:37:50am

re: #258 MandyManners

Who knows what kind of idiots we'd get?

Could they be worse than Cynthia McKinney?

270 rightside  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:38:11am

re: #260 Moe Katz


that was soooooooo last week.

271 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:38:13am

re: #241 rawmuse

What if they had money? Lots of it.

Well, then, that'd be different......dontcha know.

272 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:38:23am

re: #234 WrathofG-d

Teaching evolution to a child that parents who have Religious beliefs that teach them otherwise in public school also "violates the rights of their parents to determine what religion their children are exposed to" insofar that it forces their children to be taught un-christian beliefs, and forces them to learn what they would probably consider a form of G-dlessness.

This statement, by the way, is completely false. There is nothing "un-Christian" about the theory of evolution. Maybe you've missed the many posts I've put up about the Vatican's statements on the matter? The only Christians who believe that kind of nonsense are extremists.

273 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:38:24am

re: #258 MandyManners

Who knows what kind of idiots we'd get?

There are multiple varieties already in Congress.

I present:
John Murtha - addled jackass
Nancy Pelosi - grand pretender
Cynthia McKinney - violent, possibly psychotic

There's probably about 400 more...

274 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:38:44am

re: #248 Iron Fist

It is really one of the biggest flaws in the American system of Government. People who want power are almost always people who should be kept as far away from power as possible. The more they want it, the more potentially dangerous they are when they get it.

Dennis Miller said something last night that I've been thinking since the election: I'm wary of anybody who wants to be President.

275 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:38:59am

re: #257 Dianna

Well, at least none that doesn't involve just one's self and some privacy, anyway.

Doesn't anybody ever fucking knock anymore?!?

276 freedombilly  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:39:27am

re: #274 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Dennis Miller said something last night that I've been thinking since the election: I'm wary of anybody who wants to be President.

Can you imagine putting your family through that? Not me.

277 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:39:36am

re: #261 Nevergiveup

re: #262 rawmuse

Big shoulders.

/sheesh

The other two are near the belt...just to make sure we are on the same page, here.

278 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:39:59am

re: #273 OldLineTexan

There are multiple varieties already in Congress.

I present:
John Murtha - addled jackass
Nancy Pelosi - grand pretender
Cynthia McKinney - violent, possibly psychotic

There's probably about 400 more...

Like your list - but do ya think we really need the "possibly" under the McKinney entry?

:-)

279 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:40:10am

re: #276 freedombilly

Can you imagine putting your family through that? Not me.

I'd never want that type of scrutiny... Too much...

280 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:40:17am

re: #277 OldLineTexan

Ah. I was thinking chin.

281 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:40:18am

re: #275 Honorary Yooper

Doesn't anybody ever fucking knock anymore?!?

Is that a new position?

282 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:40:43am

Problem is, in Comp. Religion classes across the nation, the main gist is that Christianity and Judaism are COMPLETE BS, all others are good and noble. That Christianity "stole" from every other, much less harmful religions, that the Biblical creation account was Stolen From the Babylonians, etc. etc. etc, ad infinitum. and that every other religion on the planet is okey dokey.

I do agree with Charles though, not in science class.

Although I do think that History should not neglect Israel's history, just becuase the best, most accurate history of any nation of that time period happens to be a religious book. Not teaching about Israel's history because of this is why most Americans now have absolutely no context in which to view Israel and Judaism. Their history of Israel starts in the 1940s, for the idiotic bigorty of the educated Elite have deemed that the most well-documented and most-researched book in all of human history cannot be used as anything but a "religious book".

283 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:40:46am

re: #278 subsailor68

And McKinney is no longer in Congress... How many people actually voted for that twit for Pres?

284 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:40:48am

re: #236 Charles

Actually, I believe the bottom turtle is standing on a buffalo.

But can ye prove it?

(I think they're standing on Yggdrasil - its only those anti-Vikingists who deny this!)

285 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:40:51am

re: #269 capitalist piglet

Could they be worse than Cynthia McKinney?

Nobody could be worse than Cynthia McKinney :)

286 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:40:57am

re: #258 MandyManners

Who knows what kind of idiots we'd get?

OJ Jury.....'nuff said.

287 FrogMarch  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:41:09am

This is so fabulous, I almost passed out cold.


Schadenfreude

"Leave it to the Germans to concoct an intricate glossary of pain terminology"

and other stuff. Please watch. You won't be sorry.

288 freedombilly  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:41:14am

re: #281 MandyManners

Is that a new position?

LOL

289 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:41:23am

re: #280 rawmuse

Ah. I was thinking chin.

Hard to tell about that one...I'm thinking Leno, and I''m pretty sure he's RICH.

290 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:41:25am

re: #237 wright1

I neither know, nor care. I'm aware he once stated he was born again; I hope he was comforted and sustained by his faith. However, he could have been making a politically expedient statement, and it would mean exactly as much to me.

My interest in anyone's faith and practice is limited to discovering if he or she means to attempt to force said faith and practice on me.

291 DeafDog  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:41:32am

re: #248 Iron Fist

Hopefully it'll be good enough to survive the next 4-8 years.

If we can make it through 2, I'll be happy.

292 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:41:34am

re: #281 MandyManners

Is that a new position?

I hope so. I'm so bored. Been through every position in my copy of the Kharmann Ghia.

293 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:41:42am
294 OldLineTexan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:41:47am

re: #281 MandyManners

Is that a new position?

Not for some people.

/ba-dump-bump

295 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:41:58am

re: #285 mama winger

Nobody could be worse than Cynthia McKinney :)

For the Lord's sake... Don't DARE them!

296 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:42:02am

re: #292 subsailor68

I hope so. I'm so bored. Been through every position in my copy of the Kharmann Ghia.

SPEW

297 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:42:04am

re: #277 OldLineTexan

re: #262 rawmuse

Big shoulders.

/sheesh

The other two are near the belt...just to make sure we are on the same page, here.

I was told in High School I had pretty big shoulders. Of Course I was wearing shoulder pads?

298 joncelli  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:42:10am

re: #184 rawmuse

The problem -- the thing that makes the Republican party keep around a group that many know is dragging them down -- is that fundamentalist christians are active in the party and frequently provide the ground troops in major campaigns. One way to de-emphasize the influence of conservative christians is for fiscal and national defense conservatives to start stepping into these activist roles within the party. All politics is local. The party will only return to its roots when people other than fundamentalists start to participate in the details of the party's life.

299 bellamags  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:42:32am

As the Dow index plunges again, here’s a Thursday open thread...

hmmm

300 FrogMarch  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:43:03am

re: #293 taxfreekiller

What's up with the snow Global Warming Fraud Classmates,

Prof. Al Gore got lies and fraud into the Curriculum?

[Link: www.arapahoebasin.com...]

web cans do not lie

The earth is cooling. shhhh. the zillion dollar global warming industry doesn't want you to know.

301 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:43:10am

re: #283 tfc3rid

And McKinney is no longer in Congress... How many people actually voted for that twit for Pres?

Okay, true story. In the little town next to ours (back a few years) a woman was running for mayor. She and her husband were going on vacation, so they early voted. When they got back, the early votes had been counted.

She got one.

302 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:43:23am

re: #281 MandyManners

Is that a new position?

Ever see Fast Times at Ridgemont High? It explains a lot about Sean Penn.

303 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:43:23am

re: #300 FrogMarch

The earth is cooling. shhhh. the zillion dollar global warming industry doesn't want you to know.

Come on man... It's Climate Change...

304 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:43:29am

re: #272 Charles

I don't necessarily believe it is, and I don't make decisions regarding Christianity as I am not a Christian. My only point is that those that are fighting evolution being taught, would most likely believe that it was.

You can call them extremists if you want, and maybe you have some personal knowledge regarding Christianity that I do not, which would cause you to know this and I wouldn't, but I do not believe I am in a position to judge how extreme one is in their religious beliefs.

As a point of clarification, isn't the Vatican only Catholic? (honest question, not an expert on Christianity)

[going to lunch anyhow, will check back when I get back]

305 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:43:31am

My model for the correct brand of Republicanism predates Reagan.
I am in the Barry Goldwater model.

306 Lincolntf  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:43:51am

It's pretty much impossible to study any of the natural sciences without teaching evolution. It's the basis for everything that organisms are, do, are used for, etc. If there are hard-core Creationists who truly believe that dinosaurs didn't exist (as a matter of fact, not faith) then how on Earth could they be qualified to be public school Teachers in the first place? How did they even graduate from high-school?
If the Jindahl's etc. of the world really want to destroy science education in favor of Religious education, then obviously they are unfit to be involved in the process. But, just because someone espouses a belief in their place of worship, their hearts, or their homes doesn't necessarily mean that it pervades their secular/professional life. I looked at a few snippets on Wikipedia and if those are truly representative of the Creationist pols' views, then I would think they'd be holed up in a cave somewhere waiting for Armageddon.

307 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:43:51am

re: #238 J.S.

You just zoomed by my point and brought in one I don't agree with, and acted as if they are identical.

Trust me, they're not.

But let's drop it. I have ignored my work for this last hour, and I promised to drop many things on my boss before leaving today.

308 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:44:02am

If a parent wants to stunt his/her child's critical thinking by teaching them to distrust science and believe in falsehoods like creationism, that's their right, of course.

But the theory of evolution is a well-established scientific fact, and not teaching it in science classes is a ridiculous idea. Without evolution, modern biological science makes no sense.

309 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:44:06am

re: #66 Nevergiveup

Didn't he have a hot wife?

The word "slut" comes to mind there.

310 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:44:10am

re: #298 joncelli

Do you feel that I am dragging the Party down? I mean this as a serious question, not as snark. I am honestly trying to figure this thing out.

311 capitalist piglet  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:44:33am

re: #285 mama winger

Nobody could be worse than Cynthia McKinney :)


I'm thinking toss up here:

Prior to the 110th Congress, [Sheila] Jackson-Lee served on the House Science Committee and on the Subcommittee that oversees space policy and NASA. She once asked, during a visit to the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, whether the Mars Pathfinder had taken an image of the flag planted on Mars in 1969 by Neil Armstrong.

312 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:45:07am

I see (how the hell do you spell?) Jeanine (phonics, people) Gurr-offfa-low glasses (the square, black frames), all the time, on otherwise-attractive young ladies, usually at coffeeshops, and I automatically assume that the're moonbats. Is this wrong?

313 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:45:21am

re: #241 rawmuse

Then she gets married to a charming cad and still doesn't get laid.

314 Vet_Missing_Parts (1LT, Ret)  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:45:35am

re: #305 rawmuse

My model for the correct brand of Republicanism predates Reagan.
I am in the Barry Goldwater model.

Limited government. Law enforcement. Strong Defense. Originalist Constitution followed with "all other powers" devolving onto the states.

/nuff said.

315 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:45:40am

re: #304 WrathofG-d

Yes, the Vatican is for Catholics. The Eastern Orthodox regard the Pope as merely one of the patriarchs.

316 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:45:50am

re: #292 subsailor68

I hope so. I'm so bored. Been through every position in my copy of the Kharmann Ghia.

How many positions could you do in that little car, anyway?

317 Iron Fist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:45:58am

re: #258 MandyManners

As compared to what's there? It couldn't really get much worse. Hell, you've got that William Jefferson who was keeping marked bribe money in his freezer and I reckon he got re-elected. Not to mention Ted Kennedy. Or John Kerry. Nancy Pelosie and the ever-popular Harry Reid.

Having "professional" politicians doesn't work very well.

318 sadhu  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:46:02am

up 200, down 300, up 200
just a little volatility today :)

319 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:46:04am

re: #287 FrogMarch

This is so fabulous, I almost passed out cold.


Schadenfreude

and other stuff. Please watch. You won't be sorry.

O'Reilly didn't step all over Miller's lines last night.

320 FrogMarch  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:46:14am

re: #303 tfc3rid

Come on man... It's Climate Change...

yeah - climate change. /Because we all know the climate is static.
oh looksie! George Soros is behind the global warming industry too.

321 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:46:32am

re: #287 FrogMarch

This is so fabulous, I almost passed out cold.


Schadenfreude


and other stuff. Please watch. You won't be sorry.

Saw it last night. Very funny.

322 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:46:39am

re: #285 mama winger

Nobody could be worse than Cynthia McKinney :)

Cindy Sheehan

323 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:46:41am

re: #311 capitalist piglet



That was canceled.

324 Jimmah  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:46:43am

re: #234 WrathofG-d

Teaching evolution to a child that parents who have Religious beliefs that teach them otherwise in public school also "violates the rights of their parents to determine what religion their children are exposed to" insofar that it forces their children to be taught un-christian beliefs, and forces them to learn what they would probably consider a form of G-dlessness.

Last time I heard that argument it was from a muslim fundamentalist.

325 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:47:07am

re: #322 Who Watches the Watchmen?

Cindy Sheehan

Oh . There is that.

326 joncelli  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:47:22am

re: #236 Charles

How does the buffalo feel about this?

327 capitalist piglet  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:47:33am

re: #310 mama winger

You didn't ask me, but I believe you are not just wanted in the party, you are needed in the party. The answer, to me, is not booting one side or the other out, but finding a way for the two sides to coexist.

328 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:47:37am

re: #292 subsailor68

I hope so. I'm so bored. Been through every position in my copy of the Kharmann Ghia.

hahahahahahahahahahaa

329 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:48:10am

re: #315 Honorary Yooper

Yes, the Vatican is for Catholics. The Eastern Orthodox regard the Pope as merely one of the patriarchs.

And the Protestants regard him respectfully as a religious leader and scholar, but not as a spokesman for the faith.

330 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:48:33am

re: #326 joncelli

How does the buffalo feel about this?

Squashed. He's got too many turtles and an elephant on his back.

331 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:48:59am

re: #325 mama winger

Oh . There is that.

I think McKinney's worse. Sheehan's resume doesn't have the racist component.

332 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:49:08am

re: #224 MandyManners

I'm all for teaching various creation beliefs.

I'm more interested in creation techniques. ;)

333 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:49:13am

Sooooo... How abotu that George Soros... He must feel like a real champion eh?

334 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:49:22am

Post office $2.8 billion in the red

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Before you drop that letter in the mail?

335 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:49:24am

Charles,

While I do agree that teaching Creationism, or it's stealthy ideological cousin, Intelligent Design, is a dangerous medievalism, the threat is small compared to the penetration of another pseudo-science into our school curriculum. I'm referring to Marxism, or any of the other cover terms it masquerades under, such as "scientific socialism" or "social justice" or "progressivism". Marxism has permeated the teachers colleges, and is seeping into history, literature and economics classes. It flourishes at our universities. It is just as unscientific & harmful to critical thinking as Creationism and far more dangerous to the principles of democracy.

336 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:49:33am

re: #287 FrogMarch

That was great! Dennis Miller rocks.

337 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:49:48am

re: #312 Taqiyyotomist

I see (how the hell do you spell?) Jeanine (phonics, people) Gurr-offfa-low glasses (the square, black frames), all the time, on otherwise-attractive young ladies, usually at coffeeshops, and I automatically assume that the're moonbats. Is this wrong?

That's a reasonable assumption. One might also speculate that a private encounter with someone matching that description would be Kafkaesque.

338 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:49:54am

re: #327 capitalist piglet

You didn't ask me, but I believe you are not just wanted in the party, you are needed in the party. The answer, to me, is not booting one side or the other out, but finding a way for the two sides to coexist.

Thank you for that . Not that I have any plans of going anywhere at all - you guys are stuck with me for life LOL :)

I think litmus tests for any issue is a bad idea. We need to find common ground on the essentials, and be charitable in the non-essentials.

339 joncelli  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:49:58am

re: #251 Big Print

Hmm, got to work a couple trannies in there. Otherwise, a wonderful suggestion!

340 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:50:12am

re: #334 Nevergiveup

Egads... What the hell?

341 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:52:03am

re: #276 freedombilly

Can you imagine putting your family through that? Not me.

On the other hand, there are many choices people make that are bad for their family in certain ways, but are overall a good and noble act.

Like joining the military. Many a man or woman has missed major events in their children's lives and large chunks of time because they were away making things better for everyone. I think some politicians, or rather I would say some statesmen, realize the hardship on their families but think it is worth it if they can make the world a better place, yes even for their own children, just not as directly.

Of course, many politicians are motivated more by selfish desire for what they want to do, without much thought for their children/spouse.

342 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:52:14am

re: #326 joncelli

How does the buffalo feel about this?

Put upon.

343 satan sidekick  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:52:57am

re: #50 Mostly Annoyed

Strange things about those new voters. Many of them registered to vote in counties that border either solid blue states or red states that weren't going to turn blue. I suspect a few folks simply "traveled" over state lines. Check out the county by county results in NC OH and VA here

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

344 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:53:39am

re: #301 subsailor68

Okay, true story. In the little town next to ours (back a few years) a woman was running for mayor. She and her husband were going on vacation, so they early voted. When they got back, the early votes had been counted.

She got one.

Bet that couch got cold.

345 Dianna  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:54:19am

re: #329 mama winger

And the Protestants regard him respectfully as a religious leader and scholar, but not as a spokesman for the faith.

Except for the ones who view him as the anti-Christ; fortunately, those are a lot thinner on the ground than they were.

346 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:54:54am

re: #339 joncelli

I asked a question of you in post #310 - I am wondering if you saw it?

347 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:55:29am

re: #318 sadhu

up 200, down 300, up 200
just a little volatility today :)

If you put your arms up in the air, it is more fun. Wheeeeee

348 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:55:30am

If we're back on this, I'd just like to reiterate that there are many strong Christians who believe that God created everything out of nothing but it wasn't over 6 days. The Big Bang Theory used to be quite controversial among scientists because it pointed to a single "creative event" rather than all matter having been here forever. There really is a preponderance of evidence for an old earth and I'd like my daughter to be a scientist some day so I'd like her to learn the How and When at school and the Who and Why from us and church.

349 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:55:52am

re: #344 Silhouette

Bet that couch got cold.

That dog house must have been pretty big to have a couch in it.

350 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:56:07am

re: #344 Silhouette

Bet that couch got cold.

Yeah, and he didn't look too good - said it was tough getting any sleep with one eye open.

351 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:56:17am

For Sale: One Seat. Brand New. ALmost never been sat in!

Obama resigning Senate seat as of Sunday

[Link: blogs.suntimes.com...]

352 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:56:33am

re: #301 subsailor68

Okay, true story. In the little town next to ours (back a few years) a woman was running for mayor. She and her husband were going on vacation, so they early voted. When they got back, the early votes had been counted.

She got one.

LOL! Is the hubby still alive? Are they still married?

353 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:56:35am

re: #335 Kenneth

Dinger not working - consider yourself updinged for that!

354 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:56:45am

re: #346 mama winger


re: #339 joncelli

I asked a question of you in post #310 - I am wondering if you saw it?

Can I answer for him? Please stay in the party. We can all find many more things in common than not.

355 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:56:48am

re: #345 Dianna

Except for the ones who view him as the anti-Christ; fortunately, those are a lot thinner on the ground than they were.

Yes, I think MUCH MUCH of that is fading into the woodwork, thank goodness.

356 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:56:49am

re: #348 Spenser (with an S)

If we're back on this, I'd just like to reiterate that there are many strong Christians who believe that God created everything out of nothing but it wasn't over 6 days. The Big Bang Theory used to be quite controversial among scientists because it pointed to a single "creative event" rather than all matter having been here forever. There really is a preponderance of evidence for an old earth and I'd like my daughter to be a scientist some day so I'd like her to learn the How and When at school and the Who and Why from us and church.

Hear hear!

357 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:57:06am

re: #331 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I think McKinney's worse. Sheehan's resume doesn't have the racist component.

Sheehan said some nasty anti-semetic things if I recall.

About the war in Iraq being for the benefit of the Jews. Maybe I'm recalling incorrectly.

358 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:57:28am

re: #357 Silhouette

Sheehan said some nasty anti-semetic things if I recall.

About the war in Iraq being for the benefit of the Jews. Maybe I'm recalling incorrectly.

No you are correct.

359 subsailor68  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:57:33am

re: #352 Russkilitlover

LOL! Is the hubby still alive? Are they still married?

In truth, I haven't seen either of them in years. My guesses: maybe and probably not.

:-)

360 freedombilly  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:57:33am

re: #341 Silhouette

Very well said.

361 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:57:38am

re: #338 mama winger

Thank you for that . Not that I have any plans of going anywhere at all - you guys are stuck with me for life LOL :)

I think litmus tests for any issue is a bad idea. We need to find common ground on the essentials, and be charitable in the non-essentials.

Agree wholeheartedly!

362 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:57:52am

re: #354 Spenser (with an S)

Can I answer for him?

NO ! ! NO YOU MAY NOT ! !

/ there are rules ya know ......

:)

363 joncelli  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:58:06am

re: #310 mama winger

I do not want to insult anybody. I appreciate everybody's work in the party. But it's an iron law of politics that the activists in a party are not representative of the electorate. What I think is that the Republicans need a new injection of people from the outside to step into the day-to-day workings of the party. (Mama, honest, I wasn't trying to be insulting.)

364 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:58:06am

re: #353 yma o hyd

Thanks!

365 Iron Fist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:58:07am

re: #274 Who Watches the Watchmen?

That is a sentiment that I certainly agree with. Why would anyone want that job? I can understand feeling like it is your duty to run (like Fred Thompson apparently did), but want it? Shit, the stress alone would drive a minister to drink.

For what kind of reward? You have to be rich to even be in consideration for the position, so monetary gain is out. People want it to be able to shape the direction the country is going in. They want the power for the sake of power, although most of them would deny this.

I believe Obama when he says he wants to change America. I just don't believe I like the idea of living in the USA he wants to create. He's about to find out that being President doesn't make him dictator. That is something we've gotten right. Our system was set up with lots of checks on power. Fundamentally, the Founders didn't trust the politicians any more than we do. All things considered, they did a pretty bang-up job for a bunch of Dead White Men.

366 capitalist piglet  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:58:14am

re: #338 mama winger

Thank you for that . Not that I have any plans of going anywhere at all - you guys are stuck with me for life LOL :)

I think litmus tests for any issue is a bad idea. We need to find common ground on the essentials, and be charitable in the non-essentials.

Agreed. And for the record, I am unashamed of my belief in God, and of my Christianity. Where my politics are concerned I lean toward the libertarian (to a point - I am definitely more live-and-let-live than some conservatives), and you're right - there is plenty of common ground and that should be our focus.

There seems to be a movement in the nation overall to drive Christians underground, and it's wrong. We should have a place at the table, too.

[ I'm not talking about science class here - I personally don't think God and science are incompatible, and neither does my brother, a scientist with a PhD...in Wisconsin. : ) ]

367 Bos2112  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:58:16am

The One, Pelosi, Paulson spew and the Dow tanks ,W speaks and the dow jumps. Any correlation?

368 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:58:28am

re: #357 Silhouette

Sheehan said some nasty anti-semetic things if I recall.

About the war in Iraq being for the benefit of the Jews. Maybe I'm recalling incorrectly.

That's a widespread moonbat belief these days and a baseless canard. Israel didn't particularly encourage the Iraq project.

369 Fibonacci  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:59:05am

Governor Palin holds press conference!

She was very impressive at this press conference. Short video.

[Link: www.swamppolitics.com...]

More proof that the McCain handlers totally blew it. She has no fear of the press or the MSM. It was the McCain team that smothered her. Now that she is unleashed Governor Palin is very impressive. She has a confidence that can’t be faked.

370 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:59:11am

re: #348 Spenser (with an S)

If we're back on this, I'd just like to reiterate that there are many strong Christians who believe that God created everything out of nothing but it wasn't over 6 days. The Big Bang Theory used to be quite controversial among scientists because it pointed to a single "creative event" rather than all matter having been here forever. There really is a preponderance of evidence for an old earth and I'd like my daughter to be a scientist some day so I'd like her to learn the How and When at school and the Who and Why from us and church.

Absolutely - but that's the real point. Santorum, Jindal, and the other creationists are not satisfied with keeping science and religion separate. They are specifically advocating to force the teaching of creationism on everyone's children, in public school science classes. That's why they are a big problem for the GOP - not because of their personal beliefs, but because they're activists. And I would argue that they're anti-freedom activists.

371 JCM  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:59:41am

A sign of things to come?

California Musical Theatre director steps down

Scott Eckern, artistic director of the California Musical Theatre, is resigning his post and leaving the organization.

A boycott of the theater was called Tuesday by some in the national arts community when news broke that Eckern contributed $1,000 to the Yes on Proposition 8 campaign, which supported the ban on gay marriage.

Exercise your 1st Amendment rights, lose your job. Make no mistake Eckern was forced out for supporting Prop 8.

372 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:59:42am

re: #357 Silhouette

Sheehan said some nasty anti-semetic things if I recall.

About the war in Iraq being for the benefit of the Jews. Maybe I'm recalling incorrectly.

I missed that, but I didn't pay attention to everything she did or said. You could very well be right.

373 FrogMarch  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:00:01pm

re: #336 rawmuse

That was great! Dennis Miller rocks.

One of the best DM segmental yet.

374 FrogMarch  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:00:09pm

segments

375 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:01:05pm

re: #308 Charles

If a parent wants to stunt his/her child's critical thinking by teaching them to distrust science and believe in falsehoods like creationism, that's their right, of course.

But the theory of evolution is a well-established scientific fact, and not teaching it in science classes is a ridiculous idea. Without evolution, modern biological science makes no sense.

It's all part of the big poof theory.. 6000 years ago..poof..everything just sort of happened..Pay no attention to those 4.3 billion year old rocks..
they just poof'd here also...and fossil records? forget about it..
part of the big poof theory...

376 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:01:21pm

re: #363 joncelli

(Mama, honest, I wasn't trying to be insulting.)

Oh, I know you weren't ! I know that you and I and everyone else here are only trying to find our way after the defeat of last week. In order to do that it is essential that we have honest dialogue and that is exactly what I see you doing - along with every one else here.

We know each other well - we are family. Families can hash it out and disagree and still - we are family. We may beat each other about the head and neck at times - but still, here we are :)

I welcome the discussion, and I know you do too.

377 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:02:26pm

re: #338 mama winger

We need to find common ground on the essentials, and be charitable in the non-essentials.

I joined for a short time a group of women whose goal was to reduce the number of abortions.

It was a combination of those that were anti-abortion AND strong pro-choice feminists who, while defending abortion when necessary, wanted to work together to make it unnecessary as much as possible.

It was refreshing to see differences put aside like that, especially considering that is one of the most passionate and emotional differences we have in our society.

378 DistantThunder  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:02:39pm

re: #209 Dianna

Not really. But he paid lip-service to the concept, just enough to keep the target voting bloc in line.

Cutting federal funding for abortion overseas was more a proper fiscal move than anything else.

Not only that but when you see the "facilities" in these third world countries and realize how in Russia alone millions of women become sterile through infections after abortions...there is much more at stake. (looking for link)

When I was in Guatemala I saw dogs, yes dogs, walking through the hospital corridors. There were no autoclaves for instrument sterilization.

379 JCM  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:02:42pm

re: #375 HoosierHoops

It's all part of the big poof theory.. 6000 years ago..poof..everything just sort of happened..Pay no attention to those 4.3 billion year old rocks..
they just poof'd here also...and fossil records? forget about it..
part of the big poof theory...

4.3 billion year old rocks, and 10 billion year old star are a test of faith.

/ or so I was told.

380 FrogMarch  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:03:24pm

re: #370 Charles

Speaking of the war on science: add this to the list.

381 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:03:28pm

re: #356 pre-Boomer Marine brat

re: #348 Spenser (with an S)

If we're back on this, I'd just like to reiterate that there are many strong Christians who believe that God created everything out of nothing but it wasn't over 6 days. The Big Bang Theory used to be quite controversial among scientists because it pointed to a single "creative event" rather than all matter having been here forever. There really is a preponderance of evidence for an old earth and I'd like my daughter to be a scientist some day so I'd like her to learn the How and When at school and the Who and Why from us and church.

Hear hear!

Thanks. Great book by two Phd's and very strong Christians helped me sort out the theory to my satisfaction.

382 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:04:06pm

re: #375 HoosierHoops

It's all part of the big poof theory..

No homophobia on LGF, please.

383 JCM  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:04:20pm

Kool aid drinkers unite!

So far, so good.

The first week of Barack Obama's transition to the presidency has gone about as well as anyone could imagine.

David Broder

384 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:04:44pm
The board said it appreciated Eckern's years of service./blockquote>

Fuck them, is all I can say.

385 Sheldon  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:04:47pm

# 348

If we're back on this, I'd just like to reiterate that there are many strong Christians who believe that God created everything out of nothing but it wasn't over 6 days.

Are "they" saying the Bible isn't true? (re: Gen. I )

386 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:04:56pm

re: #377 Silhouette

Exactly. We do what we can with the tools that are available to us. When bad things cannot be eliminated, they must be reduced or contained.

387 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:05:18pm

re: #383 JCM

Kool aid drinkers unite!

A blow job is a terrible thing to waste?

388 yma o hyd  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:05:19pm

re: #366 capitalist piglet

Yes - we should not be made to feel as if we have to hide our Christian belief, or keep out of politics.
Our belief ought to infuse how we look at and try to solve problems in everyday life, ours and in our communities or even in the state.
We know - well, we ought to! - that these will not be solved if we force our belief down other people's throats ...

389 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:05:22pm

re: #30 capitalist piglet

I would like to pose a question to everyone:

What is your all-time favorite line from The Sopranos? Mine is:

"I've got federal marshalls so far up my ass, I can taste Brylcreme."

"He killed 14 Czechoslovakians. He's an interior decorator."
"Really? His place looked like shit."

390 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:05:30pm

re: #368 Moe Katz

That's a widespread moonbat belief these days and a baseless canard. Israel didn't particularly encourage the Iraq project.

Since when has truth mattered in any good "Jews are controlling the world" rumor?

:-(

391 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:05:58pm

re: #379 JCM

4.3 billion year old rocks, and 10 billion year old star are a test of faith.

/ or so I was told.

Imagine if Einstein believed in ID...
give me hard science or give me death..
/ mmm. that line sounds vaguely familiar

392 DisturbedEma  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:06:15pm

Dow SMOW. . .let's talk about the PUPPY. . .DRAMA. . .what will they get for the first dog. . .spit

393 capitalist piglet  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:06:30pm
394 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:06:45pm

re: #390 Silhouette

Since when has truth mattered in any good "Jews are controlling the world" rumor?

:-(

Sadly true :(

395 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:07:08pm
396 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:07:28pm

re: #248 Iron Fist

David Eddings had the same idea in his Malloreon series. Some island nation (can't remember its name) drafted their leader and confiscated their property for the duration of their term. If the Nation prospered under their leadership, at the end of their term they got their property back with interest. If the Nation did poorly under their leadership, they got back a lot less than what they started with if anything

397 DisturbedEma  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:07:37pm

re: #387 Nevergiveup

A blow job is a terrible thing to waste?

Ack! The mind bleach. . . full strength. . .moonbats from work, the mental images. . .ack ack

:)

398 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:08:15pm

re: #393 capitalist piglet

Tolerance!

Kid experiments in Oak Park school, comes face-to-face with the "tolerant" left.

Immediately, Catherine learned she was stupid for wearing a shirt with Republican John McCain's name. Not merely stupid. Very stupid.

"People were upset. But they started saying things, calling me very stupid, telling me my shirt was stupid and I shouldn't be wearing it," Catherine said.

Then it got worse.

"One person told me to go die. It was a lot of dying. A lot of comments about how I should be killed," Catherine said, of the tolerance in Oak Park

What a brave kiddo.

399 Bobibutu  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:08:18pm

re: #367 Bos2112

The One, Pelosi, Paulson spew and the Dow tanks ,W speaks and the dow jumps. Any correlation?

Must be your imagination.

/

400 JCM  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:08:29pm

re: #395 Charles

Priest turned biologist debunks intelligent design.

That heretic is just asking for an auto de fe.
/extreme sarc

401 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:09:20pm

re: #383 JCM

... as well as anyone could imagine.

And not as bad as others could imagine ... but never fear Hope, we always have CHANGE!

/sorry ... how are you today? Did the little one get over the yucks?

402 Iron Fist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:09:47pm

re: #335 Kenneth

Global Warmism as God is a much more prevalent threat to freedom than Creationism of whatever stripe. It is taught as the infallible one word of truth, and to question it is to risk ridicule and poor grades at the very least.

And while they may say the science is "settled" the truth is that it is far from settled. I came across something in the last few days that said a new theory was startin gto make the rounds that we would be headed into a million year Ice Age without Global Warming.

I shit you not.

Hell, these "scientists" can't reliably predict the weather next week, but the want me to believe that they can predict the weather 50 years from now. Snake oil salesmen without the respectible reputation of snake oil.

But they want to wreck the economy in the name of their cult. And Barry Hussein is going to be there to help them, at least rhetorically. It'll be interesting to see if he tries to revive the Kyoto Treaty.

403 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:09:51pm

re: #400 JCM

That heretic is just asking for an auto de fe.
/extreme sarc

An auto-da-fé with a Torquemadic transmission.

404 Ford_Prefect  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:09:54pm

re: #370 Charles

Charles, I would just like to say that it is nice to have you around discussing topics and not just posting new threads. Your opinion is valued highly.

405 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:10:26pm

re: #386 mama winger

Exactly. We do what we can with the tools that are available to us. When bad things cannot be eliminated, they must be reduced or contained.

Which you may have just stated the major difference between leftists and rightists.

They believe we can make things better. We believe that there will always be flaws, and that every solution causes negative effects of its own. The trick then it to find the best trade off.

Life's a trade off. Like using DDT, which will cause X additional deaths by cancer per year but save 10,000X additional lives each year from malaria.

406 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:10:40pm

re: #400 JCM

That heretic is just asking for an auto de fe.
/extreme sarc

407 DisturbedEma  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:10:50pm
408 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:11:03pm

City Council: Detroit needs $10-billion bailout

[Link: www.freep.com...]

Boy, that bail-out line is gettting real long!

409 Eowyn2  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:11:17pm

re: #14 yma o hyd

Religious beliefs simply have no place in a political party.

A secular state is not a-religious, it simply does not give room in its legislation for anything based on religious views.

Every citizen is still free to cling to whatever religious text is his preferred one - but the tenets of that book won't find place in legislation.

All those who reject this - just think about a party for the introduction of Sharia law ... how can this be refused, if that party gets a majority, when there are no safeguards to keep religion out of politics?

And yet the US Constitution was based on rights endowed by our Creator.

410 Spenser (with an S)  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:11:29pm

re: #385 Sheldon


# 348

If we're back on this, I'd just like to reiterate that there are many strong Christians who believe that God created everything out of nothing but it wasn't over 6 days.

Are "they" saying the Bible isn't true? (re: Gen. I )

No, "I" am not. The first few chapters of Genesis are classic Hebrew poetry with the repetitions, etc.. Think of the audience, nomadic people who would have no way of even knowing the earth is round and just needed to know "Who" did this and why are we here. When later, the scriptures record an event as having happened in a straight reported form, I also take that for what it was and fully believe it happened as written, including the miracles. The Bible doesn't tell how to make a compass or cross an ocean or any number of scientific things ("The storehouses of snow in the sky") but it does tell us everything we need to know about God and our relationship to Him.

411 JCM  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:11:31pm

re: #401 pre-Boomer Marine brat

And not as bad as others could imagine ... but never fear Hope, we always have CHANGE!

/sorry ... how are you today? Did the little one get over the yucks?

Everything seems to back in battery. Doing well, right now I have to herd engineers here in WA, in the Philippines, and in India to agree on a project's parameters so I can go build the hardware. Give me a herd of cats any day of the week.

412 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:11:33pm

re: #403 Moe Katz

An auto-da-fé with a Torquemadic transmission.

*rimshot*

413 mama winger  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:11:58pm

re: #408 Nevergiveup

City Council: Detroit needs $10-billion bailout

[Link: www.freep.com...]

Boy, that bail-out line is gettting real long!

Will you hold my place in line while I go to the bathroom ?

414 Charles  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:12:17pm

re: #380 FrogMarch

Speaking of the war on science: add this to the list.

Yep, antivaccination kookery is also on the rise. This is a brand of anti-science insanity that crosses party lines. You can find numerous articles promoting it at WeirdNutDrooly and other kook sites on both sides.

415 DisturbedEma  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:12:40pm

Just thinking-

Would John Lennon have a fatwa issued for the song "Imagine"

No religion, no heaven, no hell. . .no Allah/Hashem/Jesus

just wondering. . .

416 JCM  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:12:48pm

re: #403 Moe Katz

An auto-da-fé with a Torquemadic transmission.

And hemi-spiritual head 426.....

417 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:13:01pm

re: #413 mama winger

Will you hold my place in line while I go to the bathroom ?

What's in it for me?

418 Peacekeeper  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:13:12pm

re: #400 JCM

The Catholic Church is not promoting creationism. That comes from here at home.

419 Bobibutu  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:13:24pm

re: #408 Nevergiveup

City Council: Detroit needs $10-billion bailout

[Link: www.freep.com...]

Boy, that bail-out line is gettting real long!

Never should have started in the first place! Grrrrrr

420 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:13:41pm

re: #411 JCM

Everything seems to back in battery. Doing well, right now I have to herd engineers here in WA, in the Philippines, and in India to agree on a project's parameters so I can go build the hardware. Give me a herd of cats any day of the week.

*eyes opening wide*
I didn't know you worked for EDS!

/good news

421 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 12:13:47pm

Geesh... the media is still in full propaganda mode for the One

Obama's Good Start

By David S. Broder
Thursday, November 13, 2008; Page A23

So far, so good.

The first week of Barack Obama's transition to the presidency has gone about as well as anyone could imagine. His few public appearances have been gaffe-free, and his initial decisions in setting up his administration have been strongly reassuring.

If by "gaffe-free" you don't count the classless insult of