Senior Vlaams Belang Member on Trial for Holocaust Denial

Charles Johnsonfollow me on twitter
World • Thu Nov 13, 2008 at 3:52 pm PST • Views: 278

Vlaams Belang national party council member Roeland Raes is now on trial in Belgium for Holocaust denial (the decision is supposed to be handed down tomorrow), after a 2001 interview on Dutch TV in which he said:

“I doubt the systematism of the extermination of the Jews and I also doubt the number of deaths, […] and also whether camps such as Auschwitz were all meant to be extermination camps”

A translation of the statements in the video, by LGF reader “superjan:”

Raes: Indeed it happened systematically that they were prosecuted, that they were hauled away. But that it was systematically planned that they would all be killed is another matter.

Interviewer: And the figure of 6.5 million people killed?

Raes: (Nods head) You hear me doubting that.

Interviewer:You doubt that?

Raes: Yes.

An article from the Guardian has more details on Roeland Raes’s Holocaust denial: Belgium’s far right party in Holocaust controversy.

Raes, 67, committed the cardinal sin of any far right party: he said what he really thought in public on the Holocaust. In an interview on Dutch TV he cast doubt on the scale and the extent of the Holocaust to a degree which now leaves him open to prosecution for historical revisionism.

Asked by the presenter if he doubted whether the gas chambers had really existed on a grand scale, Raes replied: “Yes I dare to doubt that. I think that what we’ve been given to believe on certain points has been very exaggerated.

“The persecution and the deportation of the Jews did take place in a systematic way. But whether it was planned that everyone was going to die - well that’s another question.”

When asked if he was willing to accept that 6.5m Jews had been murdered by the Nazis during the second world war he was equally sceptical. “Of course it does seem that a lot of serious things did take place; with the Jews, with the gypsies and also with homosexuals. But to come up with an exact figure - well that’s a completely different question.”

He then went on to enrage Belgium’s large Jewish community by casting doubt on the authenticity of Anne Frank’s diaries, the Jewish schoolgirl who hid from the Nazis in wartime Amsterdam.

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309 comments

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1 bosforus  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:53:43pm

How ya going to defend this, VB?

2 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:53:54pm
3 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:54:02pm

That is very pro-Jewish!

/ehhh NOT!

4 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:54:21pm

David Duke, pleas pick up the white courtesy telephone.

5 neocon hippie  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:54:23pm

Seething from VB supporters in 5...4...3...2...1...

6 quickjustice  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:54:37pm

Hey, they were only "work" camps, right, in which subject peoples were systematically worked to death.

7 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:55:01pm

Carrying over from previous thread #398:

The 'race nationalists' in Europe are just pissed they aren't under the radar anymore via LGF. So now they are playing the whole, 'our fight is better than yours'. This makes me ask, what 'fight' are they referring to? The only 'fighting' going on is an exchange in the 'arena of ideas'. Every so often some of these 'ideas' leads to action, the uncovering of evidence, a letter to government, a phone call...etc. In the 'arena of ideas' it is necessary to be intellectually honest and be willing to stand by what you say or change your opinion when shown to be wrong.

These 'race nationalists' aren't capable of 'intellectual honesty' for they are driven by their emotional desire for racial purity and that desire trumps all. In that alone they lose on all fronts.

If, in the event the fight against Islamofascism spreads and expands out of the theatres of conflict...Iraq and Afghanistan (it has, is, and will), it becomes necessary for the fight of 'ideas' to become a real fight of 'physical' that will still not change my perspective. They are as physically weak as their cause is mentally.

I wouldn't trust them watching my six as much as a six pack. First ones to stab you in the back.

8 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:55:15pm

re: #4 karmic_inquisitor

David Duke, pleas pick up the white courtesy telephone.

(grin)

9 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:55:19pm

I am the only one or did anyone else see Pat Buchanan in the backround?

10 quickjustice  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:55:24pm

"Arbeit Mak Frie"? Do I have that right?

11 yochanan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:56:18pm

SMUCK MALAMUD

12 Meremortal  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:56:26pm

Whoopsie. I guess we'll learn if the Belgians prosecute better than they drive. Cuz they sure can't drive. Too much chocolate maybe.

13 JohnnyReb  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:56:31pm

Any chance someone could post a translation of that? I got the gist of it, but my language skills are very poor.

14 DistantThunder  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:57:15pm

Really, how do they think they got so many nude emaciated bodies in one location? And what difference does INTENT make if in the end the EFFECT was that they did become extermination camps?

15 yochanan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:57:21pm

Which one johnny?

16 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:57:28pm
17 Adrenalyn  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:58:00pm

Jessie Jackson
please pick up the hymietown phone

when is HE going to get indicted for something anyway
extortion ?
bribery ?

18 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:58:27pm
19 yochanan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:58:33pm

re: #17 Adrenalyn

Jessie Jackson
please pick up the hymietown phone

when is HE going to get indicted for something anyway
extortion ?
bribery ?

when obama is POTUS he will get saint hood

20 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:59:14pm
21 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:59:36pm

"But they support Israel."
/

22 Adrenalyn  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:59:39pm

re: #19 yochanan

when obama is POTUS he will get saint hood

oh my god
that last line in your post scared me half to death

you mean he really is going to be president ?

/closes eyes, pretends to sleep

23 quickjustice  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:59:49pm

re: #16 buzzsawmonkey

I never thought of it as a deep fat fryer before! ;-)

(Sheesh! That could receive the all around award for bad taste for the entire evening!)

24 JohnnyReb  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 3:59:59pm

re: #15 yochanan

Which one johnny?


The actual video. Unless the quote above is all he said, but there were more words in there that aren't in the paragraph above, if I heard it correctly. Could be me though.

25 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:01:57pm

I still cannot wrap my head around making speech illegal.

26 SpaceJesus  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:02:20pm

the guy is a piece of human garbage, but I find it hard to believe you can be prosecuted for thought crimes outside of the middle east and china.

27 LeePro  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:02:53pm

re: #19 yochanan

when obama is POTUS he will get saint hood

saint

hood




perfect spell check mishap!

28 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:03:14pm

re: #20 buzzsawmonkey

Bad link.

Never Happened!?

29 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:03:28pm

Not an anti-Semitic skeleton bone in his closet body.

30 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:03:42pm

re: #12 Meremortal

Whoopsie. I guess we'll learn if the Belgians prosecute better than they drive. Cuz they sure can't drive. Too much chocolate maybe.

Chocolate has no discernible effect on driving that I as a professional driver have noticed.

31 quickjustice  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:03:43pm

re: #25 MandyManners

Freedom of speech for extremists is actually useful, because then you can tell what these idiots really are thinking!

32 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:04:04pm

It would be a better thing not to have laws which forbid idiots from expressing their idiocy for all to see.

33 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:04:17pm

re: #4 karmic_inquisitor

David Duke, pleas pick up the white courtesy telephone.

and how come all the courtesy phones are white?

/Jesse Jackson.

34 bosforus  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:04:58pm

re: #25 MandyManners

I still cannot wrap my head around making speech illegal.

Is that some sort of a turban joke?

35 Athos  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:05:01pm

From The Guardian's March 2001 story on the statements of Raes:

Marc Swyngedouw, a political scientist at Brussel's Flemish University, estimates that Raes' words will cost the party dear. "Every reference to Nazism costs it votes. Every time Raes speaks out he puts his foot in his mouth. It's as simple as that and it's disastrous for the Vlaams Blok.

"It was the expression of a tendency in the heart of the party which has always existed. One group has never hidden its nostalgia for Nazi German authoritarianism."

Belgium has the highest number of immigrants per head in the European Union and the VB has been adept at stirring up racial intolerance as a result. During the second world war sections of the Flemish community also collaborated with the Nazis.

Raes has a long history of close involvement with the far right in Europe and was for many years responsible for the Belgian distribution of a magazine called De Schakel which was edited in Argentina by former members of the Flemish SS.

And we're expected to look the other way around this and statements, actions, and positions of other VB cretins just because they oppose jihad? Fat chance. I'd rather fight the two front war.

36 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:05:23pm

re: #32 Ringo the Gringo

It would be a better thing not to have laws which forbid idiots from expressing their idiocy for all to see.

Of course, no argument here. But that is the law in many European countries.

37 JohnnyReb  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:06:04pm

re: #25 MandyManners

I still cannot wrap my head around making speech illegal.


Neither can I. To me it seems to Orwellian, something that if it does happen will lead to something really, really bad for everyone.

My friend from Boston was in the Cheers bar one night talking to a person who said that we have way too many freedoms here in the US. My friend (who is a Navy vet) did not have a clue how to respond to that. Alot of people in the US do honestly think we have too much freedom.

38 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:06:55pm

re: #25 MandyManners

I still cannot wrap my head around making speech illegal.

As detestable as these idiots' speech and thoughts are, I agree. If we persecute people for their thoughts, then we become like Nazis.

I understand this is a crime in Michael Moore's socialist dreamland of Canada.

39 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:07:02pm

re: #32 Ringo the Gringo

Although I agree, the "Troopher" 'movement' gives me pause. You might think they are "idiots" but many people believe that crapola.

40 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:07:07pm

re: #37 JohnnyReb

Alot of people in the US do honestly think we have too much freedom.

BOzo will take care of that!

41 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:08:14pm

In a related item:

Rahm Emanuel apologizes for father's disparaging remarks about Arabs

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

In the interview, Benjamin Emanuel was reported as saying: "Obviously, he will influence the president to be pro-Israel. Why wouldn't he? What is he, an Arab? He's not going to clean the floors of the White House."

42 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:08:20pm

re: #39 WrathofG-d

Although I agree, the "Troopher" 'movement' gives me pause. You might think they are "idiots" but many people believe that crapola.

Never underestimate the power of large numbers of stupid people.

43 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:09:11pm

Europe has problems we don't have in the US; Holocaust denial was made illegal because otherwise it might get out of control.

I agree it's not the right solution, but you can't ignore the historical reasons for these laws.

44 Athos  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:09:17pm

Which is sadder - that most European countries have to have laws on the books making denial of the Holocaust a crime - or the fact that there are those who insist that it never took place to the point that it is so obscene that laws are needed to protect the fact?

Even in the US there are reasonable limits to the 1st Amendment right of free speech - one cannot threaten to kill the President, one cannot yell 'Fire' in a crowded theater when no such fire exists, etc.

45 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:09:19pm

re: #42 rawmuse

Never underestimate the power of large numbers of stupid people.

As we all saw last week.

46 funky chicken  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:10:01pm

re: #3 WrathofG-d

That is very pro-Jewish!

/ehhh NOT!

Yeah, I mean, mandatory volunteerism builds character and all. Hitler was just trying to make those standoffish Jews more patriotic.

um?

47 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:10:05pm

re: #41 Nevergiveup

heh, heh, heh...

48 Racer X  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:10:51pm
SC priest: No communion for Obama supporters

A South Carolina Roman Catholic priest has told his parishioners that they should refrain from receiving Holy Communion if they voted for Barack Obama because the Democratic president-elect supports abortion, and supporting him "constitutes material cooperation with intrinsic evil."

49 Lynn B.  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:10:53pm

I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation ...

/after all, isn't VB "the Jewish Party?"

50 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:11:00pm

re: #36 Charles

Of course, no argument here. But that is the law in many European countries.

Such laws often work to the advantage of parties like VB because it forces their leaders to watch more closely what they say. Holocaust denial laws actually make it easier for them to present themselves as more moderate or mainstream than they in fact are because they are forbidden from expressing their true beliefs.

51 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:11:04pm

re: #25 MandyManners

I still cannot wrap my head around making speech illegal.

Do you feel any differently about the municipal bans on using the "N" word, or banning the use of the "N" word in rap songs?

52 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:11:33pm

If mankind minus one were of one opinion, then mankind is no more justified in silencing the one than the one - if he had the power - would be justified in silencing mankind.


My favorite quote from John Stuart Mill.

53 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:11:52pm
54 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:12:28pm

Apparently ,the world will be FLAT again tomorrow!

55 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:13:18pm

re: #54 reloadingisnotahobby

Science!

56 callahan23  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:13:34pm

re: #25 MandyManners

I still cannot wrap my head around making speech illegal.

Un-nuckin' futz believable but I now for fact that Austria and Germany and many other EU countries have very strict laws banning 'incitement of the people' tightly wrapped around the subject of national-sozialisn (nazi)-progaganda and exculpation of nazi-crimes.
Whereas a radical cleric can go along his incitement business quite easily by adjusting and avoiding the most notorious lies.

57 Meremortal  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:14:53pm

re: #30 The Other Les

Chocolate has no discernible effect on driving that I as a professional driver have noticed.


+
OK, so it's not the chocolate. They've got major problems aiming their cars, I can attest to that.

58 UFO TOFU  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:15:27pm

OT
This is different.
Eastern Idaho Kids Chant “Assassinate Obama” on School Bus

It caught my eye because I operate a school bus company. I would have put a stop to that real quick.

59 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:15:51pm
60 Killian Bundy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:16:01pm

re: #54 reloadingisnotahobby

Apparently ,the world will be FLAT again tomorrow!

/tomorrow?

61 Adrenalyn  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:16:15pm

re: #58 UFO TOFU

OT
This is different.
Eastern Idaho Kids Chant “Assassinate Obama” on School Bus

It caught my eye because I operate a school bus company. I would have put a stop to that real quick.

dangerous OT
I am going to close my eyes and hope no one tees off on this

62 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:16:24pm

re: #53 WrathofG-d

I know you're being sarcastic but any evil that the coming administration will do is going to distinctive from that which has been historically performed by previous evil regimes.

63 funky chicken  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:17:02pm

re: #58 UFO TOFU

Aryan Nation compound served by that bus?

64 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:17:36pm

re: #60 Killian Bundy

Holy shit Batman! You found that wicked fast!
LOL

65 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:18:20pm

And, I guess this is a good time to revisit my question to Robert Spencer at Jihad Watch and his answer in reference to groups like VB.

Walter L. Newton: But, back to the point, yes, I am concerned about what I am hearing. Not what I am hearing from Charles, but what I am hearing from you, which is, very little. At this point, you are coming across as someone who has no knowledge of the proven racist ties of these groups OR you feel no need to state your opinion on these groups." (Fri 11/7/2008 1:32 PM)

Robert Spencer : "Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

66 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:18:25pm

re: #58 UFO TOFU

I would rather see a trial by jury for whatever The Big Zero ends up doing.

67 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:18:48pm
68 rawmuse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:19:04pm

If I recall correctly, Eisenhower made local citizens clean up and bury the dead in the camps specifically so that the atrocities could not be denied. He knew that human nature would tend to deny the reality of the Holocaust.

69 Adrenalyn  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:19:11pm

re: #51 Spare O'Lake

Do you feel any differently about the municipal bans on using the "N" word, or banning the use of the "N" word in rap songs?

apparently, the word "colored" is no longer acceptable
poor Lindsay Lohan was caught using it the other day
and people are outraged

wonder what the NAACP has to say about that

70 Wishing  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:19:15pm

re: #28 WrathofG-d

Never Happened!?

Excellent vid.

71 Lincolntf  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:19:58pm

re: #25 MandyManners

Hear, hear.

72 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:20:01pm

re: #59 funky chicken

Don't forget all that gold they were hoarding in their teeth!
/sorry, I know it's not funny. But sheesh...how can a people be as stupid as these holocaust deniers? What kind of defect does one need to have to disbelieve all the Russian and other Allied troops' stories about the horrors they saw when they overtook these places?

Don't confuse stupidity with conscious denial. These holocaust deniers do not disbelieve the holocaust - they DENY it, with malice and intent to harm others.

73 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:20:29pm
74 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:20:42pm

re: #63 funky chicken

Aryan Nation compound served by that bus?

I would think that the AN crowd would favor some form of homeschooling or a "church" run school.

75 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:20:49pm

re: #60 Killian Bundy

/tomorrow?

Cabaret - Tomorrow Belongs to Me

There is a reason "denial of the Holocaust" is a crime in Europe!

76 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:20:51pm

I have a lot more of this stuff. The more they try to lie about it, the more I'll post about it.

In case you missed the latest creepy denials from the fascist kookosphere:

[Link: europenews.dk...]

77 Adrenalyn  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:20:55pm

re: #72 Spare O'Lake

Don't confuse stupidity with conscious denial. These holocaust deniers do not disbelieve the holocaust - they DENY it, with malice and intent to harm others.

it is not denial
it is agitation

just like the "veterans for peace"
who deliberately disrupt Veterans Day parades

78 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:21:21pm

re: #68 rawmuse

If I recall correctly, Eisenhower made local citizens clean up and bury the dead in the camps specifically so that the atrocities could not be denied. He knew that human nature would tend to deny the reality of the Holocaust.

You are correct.

79 Killian Bundy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:21:58pm

re: #64 reloadingisnotahobby

Holy shit Batman! You found that wicked fast!
LOL

/I'm on Mecca time

80 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:22:06pm

re: #78 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

Smart man that Ike!

81 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:22:15pm

re: #59 funky chicken

Don't forget all that gold they were hoarding in their teeth!

/sorry, I know it's not funny. But sheesh...how can a people be as stupid as these holocaust deniers? What kind of defect does one need to have to disbelieve all the Russian and other Allied troops' stories about the horrors they saw when they overtook these places?

It's not stupidity. It's evil.

82 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:22:23pm

re: #44 Athos

Which is sadder - that most European countries have to have laws on the books making denial of the Holocaust a crime - or the fact that there are those who insist that it never took place to the point that it is so obscene that laws are needed to protect the fact?

Even in the US there are reasonable limits to the 1st Amendment right of free speech - one cannot threaten to kill the President, one cannot yell 'Fire' in a crowded theater when no such fire exists, etc.

If government can arbitrarily make exceptions to amendments that are designed to protect freedom then what good are they? If the government can say you have freedom of religion except this or that religion, you have the right to bear arms except these arms, you have to right to protest except against this or that issue, then these amendments aren't protecting anything.

What Europe needs is not laws muzzling idiots, it needs an informed citizenry, one that's not afraid to confront its history, one that can speak without fear of being prosecuted (like Brigette Bardot who routinely gets hauled into court for badmouthing Islam). One that isn't brainwashed by media that are dominated by a single political party more interested in pushing agenda than objectively informing the public.

And if that last one reminds you of the fact that Obama won largely because the voting public was mislead, underinformed and lied to by the MSM, it should. It should also scare you.

83 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:23:07pm

Sadly, the situation may grow worse as time goes by and eyewitnesses pass away. Trooferism comes in many flavors and is insidious.

There can never be enough historical research. And the research must be rigourously professional.

84 calcajun  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:23:19pm

I have a question. If there was a move afoot to arrest and extradite GHW Bush a few years back for "war crimes" (and of course there's going to be one for GW Bush come the end of January) then why won't the Europeans do the same to Dinner Jacket for his Holocaust denial? (Hell, I'll throw in David Duke if they would agree to do it)

85 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:23:32pm

re: #79 Killian Bundy

Thanks ya make feel puter illiturate!LOL

86 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:23:44pm

re: #67 WrathofG-d

VERY MUCH SO!

Obama is nothing like Hitler!

I think that we should think about this on the conceptual level.

Like Plato's concept of the Philosopher King. Of course I've forgotten more about philosophy than The Big Zero ever learned...

87 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:24:09pm

re: #58 UFO TOFU

Crap. It's shit like this that keeps giving Idaho a bad name and why I almost always say I from Southern Idaho.

88 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:24:26pm

We need a law in the US banning Carter Administration Denial.

Maybe one will go in after 4 years of Obama.

89 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:24:59pm

re: #76 Charles

I have a lot more of this stuff. The more they try to lie about it, the more I'll post about it.

In case you missed the latest creepy denials from the fascist kookosphere:

[Link: europenews.dk...]

This sort of "denial" is the same as went on through out western Europe in the 1930's. It's almost frighting to see many Jews and Christians siding with an evident enemy.

90 reloadingisnotahobby  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:25:21pm

re: #87 Bubblehead II

Utah.Idaho,Montana ,Wyoming...All the same!

91 Russkilitlover  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:25:24pm

re: #52 MandyManners

If mankind minus one were of one opinion, then mankind is no more justified in silencing the one than the one - if he had the power - would be justified in silencing mankind.


My favorite quote from John Stuart Mill.

"John Stuart Mill, of his own free will, on half-pint of shandy was particularly ill."

[Sorry - I can't hear a lot of philosopher names without that Monty Python song popping into my head...carry on].

92 callahan23  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:25:45pm

re: #73 ploome hineni

what has happened, is that Europe has dumped all the Holocaust guilt, if it happened at all, onto Germany
and the other countries, the rest f Europe, have assumed the position that they cooperted with the German out of fear/coersion. In effect they were victims also
and the Germans say, we are not responsible for our fathers/grandfathers crime

and besides the Israelis are the new nazizionist, practising geenocide on the heroic Plaestanianaians

who are protecting their historic lands from ethnic cleansing and Judiazation

Very good summing-up of what went on and is still going on in Europe and particularly Germany.

93 funky chicken  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:26:47pm

re: #72 Spare O'Lake

Yeah, that's true of the leadership. But they actually do have thousands upon thousands of drooling morons who follow them. Some of the followers are evil, but a whole lot of them are either stupid or suffering from serious mental illness.

It's kinda like the hard core losers who still participate in the KKK/Aryan Nation/Stormfront, etc.

94 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:26:50pm

re: #76 Charles

I have a lot more of this stuff. The more they try to lie about it, the more I'll post about it.

In case you missed the latest creepy denials from the fascist kookosphere:

[Link: europenews.dk...]

Historically speaking what basically separates the Progressives from the Fascists are the silly uniforms and the overt tendency towards violence.

95 screaming_eagle  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:27:02pm

re: #68 rawmuse

If I recall correctly, Eisenhower made local citizens clean up and bury the dead in the camps specifically so that the atrocities could not be denied. He knew that human nature would tend to deny the reality of the Holocaust.

Yeh thats true. Even PBS talked about it that special they just year form Burns about WW2

96 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:27:27pm

re: #9 Nevergiveup

I am the only one or did anyone else see Pat Buchanan in the backround?

He was holding the camera for the interviewer.

97 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:28:01pm

re: #63 funky chicken

We finally drove those bastards out with the help of the Southern Poverty Law Center.

98 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:28:09pm

In case you missed this when I posted it yesterday:

That's enough of the Hitler talk. I've made it very clear I don't want it here, but some people just won't stop.

I'm going to delete any comments comparing Obama to Hitler, because it's stupid, self-defeating, and it makes my site look like a right-wing Democratic Underground. If you continue to do it despite my very clear warning, I'll block your account.

99 shiplord kirel  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:28:15pm

re: #58 UFO TOFU

OT
This is different.
Eastern Idaho Kids Chant “Assassinate Obama” on School Bus

It caught my eye because I operate a school bus company. I would have put a stop to that real quick.

Yikes! Since traditional methods of civilizing the little savages, ie paddling, are probably out, a couple of weeks of in-school suspension might be in order. The case of the adult who advertised violence against Obama is much more serious, the Secret Service needs to drag him to the nearest jail for a long stay.

100 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:28:30pm

re: #86 The Other Les

Do you happen to know why my 67 got deleted? (And accordingly maybe this one that quotes it should too) since I was saying that Obama is NOT like Hitler in any way.

I think there was confusion there between me and Stinky!

101 nyc redneck  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:28:33pm

re: #32 Ringo the Gringo

It would be a better thing not to have laws which forbid idiots from expressing their idiocy for all to see.

european countries which have these laws are trying to purge themselves of their guilt for failing to do the right thing in ww2. it seems to be abt. them and not coming from a place of real concern for a better society.
such restrictions on free speech are often the first step back to fascism.

102 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:29:11pm

re: #78 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

You are correct.

I think Patton did something similar. When he walked out of the first concentration camp he saw, many said that they have never, before or since, seen a man look as angry as he did at that moment. Patton ordered that the local residents be forced to tour the camp so that they could see firsthand the obscene crimes committed by the regime they supported. Most of them were unaware of what went on behind the barbed wire and many committed suicide shortly after witnessing the aftermath of the atrocities.

I hate to think how angry Patton would be if heard these Holocaust-denying sons of bitches today.

103 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:29:55pm

re: #98 Charles

Insofar that the one deleted was mine, I want to go on record and state that my point was that there was NOTHING similar about Obama and Hitler.

My future-spouses entire family was wiped out by Hitler, i know the difference.

104 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:30:08pm

re: #98 Charles

In case you missed this when I posted it yesterday:

That's enough of the Hitler talk. I've made it very clear I don't want it here, but some people just won't stop.

I'm going to delete any comments comparing Obama to Hitler, because it's stupid, self-defeating, and it makes my site look like a right-wing Democratic Underground. If you continue to do it despite my very clear warning, I'll block your account.

I promise not to use the QUOTE function if I reply to any.

105 Adrenalyn  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:30:35pm

re: #98 Charles

In case you missed this when I posted it yesterday:

That's enough of the Hitler talk. I've made it very clear I don't want it here, but some people just won't stop.

I'm going to delete any comments comparing Obama to Hitler, because it's stupid, self-defeating, and it makes my site look like a right-wing Democratic Underground. If you continue to do it despite my very clear warning, I'll block your account.


Charles
any consideration for a warning symbol next to a posting
that is offensive, but not crossing the line as to be deleted
so the poster AND others can see a definition of what is not acceptable yet not delete-able ?

106 shiplord kirel  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:30:36pm

re: #98 Charles

In case you missed this when I posted it yesterday:

That's enough of the Hitler talk. I've made it very clear I don't want it here, but some people just won't stop.

I'm going to delete any comments comparing Obama to Hitler, because it's stupid, self-defeating, and it makes my site look like a right-wing Democratic Underground. If you continue to do it despite my very clear warning, I'll block your account.

Yep, as I said before, not even Mussolini was equivalent to Hitler, and he friggin' invented fascism.

107 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:31:07pm

This was an interesting sentence:

Raes, 67, committed the cardinal sin of any far right party: he said what he really thought in public on the Holocaust.

Did the writer mean to imply that the rest of them are hiding what they really think?

How can anyone deny that the Holocaust happened or assert that it has been exaggerated?

108 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:31:37pm

re: #80 reloadingisnotahobby

Smart man that Ike!

And the idea that anyone could live near any of the death camps and not know what was going on was and is complete and utter bullshit. They knew. They all knew.

109 funky chicken  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:31:56pm

re: #98 Charles

Sorry--neither Wrath nor I believe the Obama = Hitler nonsense. I was being sarcastic...but probably wasn't obvious about it.

110 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:32:08pm

re: #102 Crusty

I think Patton did something similar. When he walked out of the first concentration camp he saw, many said that they have never, before or since, seen a man look as angry as he did at that moment. Patton ordered that the local residents be forced to tour the camp so that they could see firsthand the obscene crimes committed by the regime they supported. Most of them were unaware of what went on behind the barbed wire and many committed suicide shortly after witnessing the aftermath of the atrocities.

I hate to think how angry Patton would be if heard these Holocaust-denying sons of bitches today.

That coward he smacked got off lightly compared to what he'd likely do to these punks.

111 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:32:28pm

re: #98 Charles

In case you missed this when I posted it yesterday:

That's enough of the Hitler talk. I've made it very clear I don't want it here, but some people just won't stop.

I'm going to delete any comments comparing Obama to Hitler, because it's stupid, self-defeating, and it makes my site look like a right-wing Democratic Underground. If you continue to do it despite my very clear warning, I'll block your account.

I agree Charles
Let's give the man a chance..The office changes people..
and who knows? Obama may end up a great ruler Leader.
For the sake of our country.. I wish him all the luck in the world.
Failure is not an option.

112 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:32:54pm

re: #107 reine.de.tout

This was an interesting sentence:

Raes, 67, committed the cardinal sin of any far right party: he said what he really thought in public on the Holocaust.

Did the writer mean to imply that the rest of them are hiding what they really think?

Yes, that's what the writer meant. And I could not agree more.

113 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:33:29pm

re: #100 WrathofG-d

All I can say is that you should talk to stinky about it.

114 ArmyWife  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:33:48pm

I cannot support suppression of free speech - most specifically political speech, and this sort of thing makes me glad yet again that I live in the Country that I do.

Banning this speech robs us all of the opportunity to recognize the moronic amongst us. We find them out, but it would be so much less work if they could self-identify.

115 Meremortal  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:34:09pm

re: #83 experiencedtraveller

Sadly, the situation may grow worse as time goes by and eyewitnesses pass away. Trooferism comes in many flavors and is insidious.

There can never be enough historical research. And the research must be rigourously professional.


+
My Dad's outfit liberated Ebensee (Austria). Dad never would say much about it, but Bob Persinger (first tank in) told me some horrific details. The survivors were almost all teenagers as the very young and the old had died. One man was given a piece of bread, took a bite and dropped dead on the spot. The Americans quickly learned to only give the survivors water and sugar cubes. The shock of food killed them, they were all on the verge of death from starvation and mistreatment. Google Ebensee for more.

116 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:34:44pm

re: #114 ArmyWife

I cannot support suppression of free speech - most specifically political speech, and this sort of thing makes me glad yet again that I live in the Country that I do.

Banning this speech robs us all of the opportunity to recognize the moronic amongst us. We find them out, but it would be so much less work if they could self-identify.

The very reason that paintball guns were invented.

117 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:34:54pm

re: #90 reloadingisnotahobby

True, but Idaho seems to get it the most because of those assholes that *USED* to reside up around the Haydon Lake area.

118 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:35:27pm

re: #58 UFO TOFU

OT
This is different.
Eastern Idaho Kids Chant “Assassinate Obama” on School Bus

It caught my eye because I operate a school bus company. I would have put a stop to that real quick.

That is sick.

/It would win at Cannes if someone had a camera and the kids were saying 'Bush' however...

119 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:35:31pm

re: #105 Adrenalyn

Charles
any consideration for a warning symbol next to a posting
that is offensive, but not crossing the line as to be deleted
so the poster AND others can see a definition of what is not acceptable yet not delete-able ?

Oh come on, we are all adults here (I think). Let's just stop the silly comparisons. Geeessshhh...

120 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:35:31pm

re: #114 ArmyWife

I cannot support suppression of free speech - most specifically political speech, and this sort of thing makes me glad yet again that I live in the Country that I do.

Banning this speech robs us all of the opportunity to recognize the moronic amongst us. We find them out, but it would be so much less work if they could self-identify.

I agree.
charles said in an earlier post that these laws were enacted so that things wouldn't "get out of hand".

so maybe there is a good reason for them. I would prefer to see the "getting out of hand" business (whatever it is) properly prosecuted, and allow these idiots to have their full say, for the entire world to see and hear.

121 clgood  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:35:37pm

I wonder which is worse: Saying such abhorrent stupidities or the fact that you can be on trial for saying such abhorrent stupidities. Which side won that war again?

I hope some part of free speech survives in this country else we're headed down that same road.

How do people who prosecute speech look down their noses at holocaust deniers? I'm reminded of Kissinger: "It's a shame they can't both lose."

122 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:36:54pm

bbiaw

123 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:37:09pm

re: #116 debutaunt

The very reason that paintball guns were invented.

lol!
I wish I had a paintball gun.

Somebody shot my house with a paintball, and we can't completely cover the stain. I know who it was. They did not intend to permanently damage our house, but still . . . the thought of "getting back" is somehow nice, but I would probably never really do it.

124 irish rose  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:37:10pm

... paying attention, Robert?

125 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:37:46pm

re: #121 clgood

The simple answer is both sides of the argument are wrong.

What I love about america is that you have the right to be a complete nutter, and everyone else has the right to criticize you for it.

126 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:38:02pm

re: #120 reine.de.tout

I agree.
charles said in an earlier post that these laws were enacted so that things wouldn't "get out of hand".

so maybe there is a good reason for them. I would prefer to see the "getting out of hand" business (whatever it is) properly prosecuted, and allow these idiots to have their full say, for the entire world to see and hear.

There is a reason for these laws against Holocaust denial: the Holocaust.

It can be credibly argued that the American concept of free speech in matters like this would be very dangerous in Europe.

127 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:38:04pm

They're expecting a really big audience for the anointment of the god-King.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

128 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:38:25pm

re: #102 Crusty

I think Patton did something similar. When he walked out of the first concentration camp he saw, many said that they have never, before or since, seen a man look as angry as he did at that moment. Patton ordered that the local residents be forced to tour the camp so that they could see firsthand the obscene crimes committed by the regime they supported. Most of them were unaware of what went on behind the barbed wire and many committed suicide shortly after witnessing the aftermath of the atrocities.

I hate to think how angry Patton would be if heard these Holocaust-denying sons of bitches today.

I'm sorry but I'm not buying that "We didn't know" bullshit. When something as massive and repulsive as that is going on around you, word has to get out regardless of how secretive they tried to be. Hell, they say it used "rain" human ashes inches deep in the surrounding towns, and the smell of burning human flesh was everywhere.

Sorry Crusty, but do not insult my intelligence by saying they didn't know. They might have claimed they didn't know, but they knew.

129 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:38:59pm

re: #123 reine.de.tout

lol!
I wish I had a paintball gun.

Somebody shot my house with a paintball, and we can't completely cover the stain. I know who it was. They did not intend to permanently damage our house, but still . . . the thought of "getting back" is somehow nice, but I would probably never really do it.

A mind crime!

130 Wilderstad  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:38:59pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

It appears Robert hasn't figured out that friends of convenience, are no friends at all.

131 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:40:35pm

re: #128 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

I'm sorry but I'm not buying that "We didn't know" bullshit. When something as massive and repulsive as that is going on around you, word has to get out regardless of how secretive they tried to be. Hell, they say it used "rain" human ashes inches deep in the surrounding towns, and the smell of burning human flesh was everywhere.

Sorry Crusty, but do not insult my intelligence by saying they didn't know. They might have claimed they didn't know, but they knew.

I should have said it insults my intelligence, not that you insulted it. Sorry Crusty.

132 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:40:38pm

re: #126 Charles

There is a reason for these laws against Holocaust denial: the Holocaust.

It can be credibly argued that the American concept of free speech in matters like this would be very dangerous in Europe.

I can partly see this but, how do you fight a false idea if you cannot confront it?

133 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:41:09pm

re: #117 Bubblehead II

True, but Idaho seems to get it the most because of those assholes that *USED* to reside up around the Haydon Lake area.

I remember when in high school and watching a girls soft ball game we had against one of 'those' city's up in the panhandle area, every girl on the opposing team had blonde hair and blue eyes and the coach was wearing a military uniform...

"But but...maybe they all happened to be the best players?"
"Maybe..."
/And pigs fly.

134 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:41:28pm

re: #123 reine.de.tout

lol!
I wish I had a paintball gun.

Somebody shot my house with a paintball, and we can't completely cover the stain. I know who it was. They did not intend to permanently damage our house, but still . . . the thought of "getting back" is somehow nice, but I would probably never really do it.


order some police tape on-line..
then at 3am wrap the tape around the house and cars..everywhere..
use chalk to draw outlines of bodies in the driveway...
and hook a bra on the car..
that about covers it...

135 WrathofG-d  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:41:50pm

re: #132 MandyManners

you can confront a false idea, you just can't spread one. If noone says there was no Holocaust, then one cannot spread the lie. You can always confront the lie with facts however.

you got it backwards.

136 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:41:57pm

re: #129 debutaunt

A mind crime!

I'm full of 'em.

137 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:42:12pm

re: #130 Wilderstad

It appears Robert hasn't figured out that friends of convenience, are no friends at all.

Robert and I have emailed back and forth about this. He is WELL AWARE of who they are, what they publicly express, what they privately express (and not so privately express) and what they stand for. As by his simple statement to me, it does not matter to him.

138 Athos  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:42:15pm

re: #82 Crusty

There is a point where the theory can no longer fit into reality and real life situations. There is no absolute, even in this country, for unrestricted freedom of speech - just as there is none in Europe. Unrestricted freedom of speech, without common sense limitations on that freedom, would result in no one ever be prosecuted for inciting a riot - since the speech that incited the riot would be protected free speech. People would be free to yell fire in crowded theaters just for the 'fun' of watching the panic. Regardless of the theory - freedom of speech in reality will have some caveats on speech that is not free.

The issue is on the definition and the terminology around the limitations on free speech. This will differ from country to country and be influenced by the history and past practices of that country. Yes, there are cases where they go over the top - a prime example would be the Provincial Hate Crime boards in Canada who attempted to castigate Mark Steyn for quoting (accurately) a European based iman about Islam.

Like it or not - one cannot legislate intelligence or common sense into someone. But when one develop's positions or conducts actions that are clearly contrary to the benefit of society, the law defined by society will step in.

139 screaming_eagle  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:42:27pm

re: #128 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

I'm sorry but I'm not buying that "We didn't know" bullshit. When something as massive and repulsive as that is going on around you, word has to get out regardless of how secretive they tried to be. Hell, they say it used "rain" human ashes inches deep in the surrounding towns, and the smell of burning human flesh was everywhere.

Sorry Crusty, but do not insult my intelligence by saying they didn't know. They might have claimed they didn't know, but they knew.


I tend to think this is why Europe has the denial law. The people knew it was happening at the time and they chose to deny it while it was happening. So after the war it would be easy to cover it up and deny it if you were willing to deny it while it was happening.

140 irish rose  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:42:35pm

re: #105 Adrenalyn

Charles
any consideration for a warning symbol next to a posting
that is offensive, but not crossing the line as to be deleted
so the poster AND others can see a definition of what is not acceptable yet not delete-able ?

Interesting idea, but you're talking a lot of posts there.
The poor man deserves to get out once in a while for a pint of cream and some fresh air.

141 ArmyWife  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:42:42pm

re: #126 Charles

I don't doubt this for a minute and seeing it first hand while I lived in Europe. The society is different on a number of levels. From my view I find it highly ironic the nuanced amongst us hold Europe up as the more civilized. As I think about that, I realize those nuanced ones are probably socialists, so the negatives wouldn't be viewed as negative, would they?

142 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:42:55pm

re: #132 MandyManners

I can partly see this but, how do you fight a false idea if you cannot confront it?

I'm not defending the laws - I'm trying to point out that it's very far from a simple black-and-white issue.

143 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:43:07pm

re: #134 HoosierHoops

order some police tape on-line..
then at 3am wrap the tape around the house and cars..everywhere..
use chalk to draw outlines of bodies in the driveway...
and hook a bra on the car..
that about covers it...

Nobody falls for that anymore.

144 neocon hippie  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:43:08pm

re: #126 Charles

OTOH, criminalizing speech, and therefore thought, feeds the idea that the thinkers of those thoughts are underdogs and martyrs. Plus gives them reason to take the stealth approach.

Better to have the malignant ideas be out in the open where they can be roundly debunked.

145 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:43:25pm

re: #125 Thanos

The simple answer is both sides of the argument are wrong.

What I love about america is that you have the right to be a complete nutter, and everyone else has the right to criticize you for it.

America is a very special place. Always has been, and if I have anything to do about it always will be. But the rest of the World is not so tolerant. Even After WW2 Jews were still being killed and persecuted just because they were Jews. When they went back to resettle in Eastern Europe, in the Middle East, and in the Soviet Union and today's Russia. The reason Jews are relatively safer today is for two very important reasons: The Military Might of the United States of America and the State of Israel. We have to be forever Vigilant.

146 bosforus  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:43:49pm

re: #134 HoosierHoops

order some police tape on-line..
then at 3am wrap the tape around the house and cars..everywhere..
use chalk to draw outlines of bodies in the driveway...
and hook a bra on the car..
that about covers it...

Sounds exactly like the Homer Simpson prank pulled on Flanders. Flanders came home to police tape around his front yard, drops his groceries from fright and Homer comes popping out from around the corner. Ha ha ha ha ha, made you think your family was dead!

147 Meremortal  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:44:10pm

re: #132 MandyManners

Hi Mandy. I think the feeling is similar to our "incite to riot" restrictions. Feelings were so raw after the war that any words seen as support of the Nazis or denials their actions were considered "fighting words."

148 Wilderstad  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:44:26pm

re: #68 rawmuse

I got a email with a power point presentation with holocaust photos and Einsenhower's words: "To collect as much proof, films, testimonies, because the day will come when some sonofabitch will say this never happened."

It's just too sad that he was 100% correct.

149 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:44:53pm

The top three most populous forums on Stormfront are usually
BNP
Netherlands/Vlaandaren
Srbrijca (or however you spell Serbia...)

That's normally, post election it was different, they got so much traffic and spewing that they had to shut down the servers.

150 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:45:13pm
151 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:45:13pm

re: #114 ArmyWife

I cannot support suppression of free speech - most specifically political speech, and this sort of thing makes me glad yet again that I live in the Country that I do.
Banning this speech robs us all of the opportunity to recognize the moronic amongst us. We find them out, but it would be so much less work if they could self-identify.

Let's try it another way:
Do you believe in a person's right to knowingly, maliciously, falsely and publicly accuse another person of committing rape?
If you would permit the law to protect a person from being falsely accused, then why not extend the same protection to the victim of a horrible crime by limiting the right of a person to deny that a legally proven rape victim had in fact been raped?

152 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:46:06pm

re: #144 neocon hippie

OTOH, criminalizing speech, and therefore thought, feeds the idea that the thinkers of those thoughts are underdogs and martyrs. Plus gives them reason to take the stealth approach.

Better to have the malignant ideas be out in the open where they can be roundly debunked.

This is such a tough one. You know that eventually, marketing, watered down education, MTV crowd, the 'troofers'... there would begin to be 'polls' popping up...

"Do you believe the Holocaust was real or invented as a 'pretext' to war?"

It would / could happen... and when a 'majority' of people are useful idiots... what happens next?

153 reine.de.tout  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:47:08pm

re: #134 HoosierHoops

order some police tape on-line..
then at 3am wrap the tape around the house and cars..everywhere..
use chalk to draw outlines of bodies in the driveway...
and hook a bra on the car..
that about covers it...

LOLOLOLOLOL!

Somebody once told me this one - take one of those plastic straps that cops sometimes use as handcuffs - crawl under the car and wrap it around the axle.

Makes an awful awful noise, but does no damage to the car.

What I don't like about it is that the person is then out whatever money they have to pay somebody to find out what's "wrong" with the car.

And that would just be wrong.

154 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:47:12pm

re: #131 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

I should have said it insults my intelligence, not that you insulted it. Sorry Crusty.

It's cool, I got you meant, and you may be right. Indeed, some Polish farmers made slicing gestures across their throats toward passing railcars crammed with Jewish prisoners on their way to the concentration camps as a sadistic taunt.

But, if they all knew, why would many have killed themselves after touring the camps?

155 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:47:23pm

re: #143 debutaunt

Nobody falls for that anymore.

Really? cause I did that last Christmas after some friends took all our Xmas rain deers on the front lawn and put them in compromising positions.
Has no one any respect?
/

156 Racer X  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:47:37pm

Never again.

157 Basho  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:47:46pm

re: #152 Oh no...Sand People!

... what happens next?

A dark age...

158 callahan23  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:47:46pm

re: #132 MandyManners

I can partly see this but, how do you fight a false idea if you cannot confront it?

Honestly and humbly, I've tried to confront them. They are resistant to historical fact, jump from argument to argument (BIIIGGG J*wsish conspiracy bla...bla...) and are sickening to the bone.
I do have a sturdy stomach myself but confronting them makes vomit and cry at the same time.

159 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:48:01pm

re: #145 Nevergiveup

I agree with you there, there was an incident just today as a student demonstration in Berlin, they attacked and destroyed a holocaust exhibit on expropriated Jewish properties.

160 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:48:10pm

re: #142 Charles

I'm not defending the laws - I'm trying to point out that it's very far from a simple black-and-white issue.

The only thing I can think to justify it is that the law-makers believe that the deniers would attract a large and powerful group.

161 Wilderstad  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:48:40pm

re: #130 Wilderstad
You're no doubt correct Walter.
My point though is that Robert will find that these "friends", will turn on him for the least reason when his usefulness is over, and so quickly he'll be stunned silly.

162 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:48:48pm

re: #153 reine.de.tout

LOLOLOLOLOL!

Somebody once told me this one - take one of those plastic straps that cops sometimes use as handcuffs - crawl under the car and wrap it around the axle.

Makes an awful awful noise, but does no damage to the car.

What I don't like about it is that the person is then out whatever money they have to pay somebody to find out what's "wrong" with the car.

And that would just be wrong.

You and your self-policing mind crimes!

163 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:48:51pm

re: #154 Crusty

But, if they all knew, why would many have killed themselves after touring the camps?

This is the first I've heard of that. Do you have any links?

164 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:49:37pm

re: #154 Crusty

It's cool, I got you meant, and you may be right. Indeed, some Polish farmers made slicing gestures across their throats toward passing railcars crammed with Jewish prisoners on their way to the concentration camps as a sadistic taunt.

But, if they all knew, why would many have killed themselves after touring the camps?

They all did not know some of the horrible details but they knew. All their Jewish neighbors disappeared and if they lived near the camps, they could smell it. Many of those who killed themselves were rightly afriad they were going to be blamed.

165 ArmyWife  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:50:06pm

re: #151 Spare O'Lake

It is a persons right to deny this, yes. Denying what occured does not change the fact set in the least. Your scenario is one argued by victim's rights advocates on numerous occasions in varying shapes. One thing that we lose site of is we do NOT have a justice system. We have a legal system. That system was never intended to take "victim's rights" into consideration. This is separate and apart from free speech, however.

166 nyc redneck  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:50:17pm

i hate holocaust deniers. they are either crazy nuts or nazi sympathizers.
but it doesn't seem right to prosecute them for ugly words alone.
even given the horror of ww2, why is there no trust that regular society can crush them w/ derision and ridicule?
that is what should be happening.
how we walk passed crazy goons standing on soap boxes in times square and laugh.

167 Meremortal  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:50:39pm

An aside...

You lizards need to know that Walter L. Newton is a very talented writer. I attended a reading of one of his works last night, and it was super.

168 Killian Bundy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:51:24pm

Franken campaign sues for voter lists

The latest twist in Minnesota's U.S. Senate recount came this morning, when the Al Franken campaign hit Ramsey County with a lawsuit, seeking the names of voters whose absentee ballots were rejected.

The DFLer's campaign hopes to force counties across the state to cough up the lists of rejected voters who, if later found eligible, could tip the balance in the closest Senate race in the country, between Fanken and incumbent Repubilcan U.S. Sen. Norm Coleman.

/I am desperate, hear me roar

169 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:52:11pm

re: #167 Meremortal

An aside...

You lizards need to know that Walter L. Newton is a very talented writer. I attended a reading of one of his works last night, and it was super.

OT - *Blushing* Thanks Mere, where do I send the check?

170 yochanan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:52:23pm

re: #98 Charles

In case you missed this when I posted it yesterday:

That's enough of the Hitler talk. I've made it very clear I don't want it here, but some people just won't stop.

I'm going to delete any comments comparing Obama to Hitler, because it's stupid, self-defeating, and it makes my site look like a right-wing Democratic Underground. If you continue to do it despite my very clear warning, I'll block your account.

IN 100% AGREEMENT
no american president is anything like snicklegruber. anyone who uses his name to talk about any american president clearly doesn't know who or what snicklegruber is or was.
compareing him to pol pot, stalin, or mao fair enough.

171 Wilderstad  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:52:35pm

re: #161 Wilderstad

Shoot, that was supposted to be a reply to Walter's post 137

re: #137 Walter L. Newton

172 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:52:36pm

re: #168 Killian Bundy

Franken campaign sues for voter lists

/I am desperate, hear me roar

Par for the course for the libturds. When you lose, sue.

173 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:53:01pm
174 ArmyWife  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:53:03pm

re: #169 Walter L. Newton

OT - *Blushing* Thanks Mere, where do I send the check?


You send it made out to and in care of ArmyWife at...

175 Oldasdirt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:53:11pm

Good evening Lizards,Great topic.

176 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:53:25pm

re: #174 ArmyWife

You send it made out to and in care of ArmyWife at...

LOL.

177 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:53:39pm
178 callahan23  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:53:48pm

re: #156 Racer X

Never again. (Remedy)

Hope you like it.
It's my favorite song of all time.

179 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:53:54pm

re: #168 Killian Bundy

Franken campaign sues for voter lists

/I am desperate, hear me roar

Is he really sure he wants to do that? How many of those rejected voters are service members voting Republican?

180 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:53:54pm
181 nyc redneck  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:54:17pm

re: #173 buzzsawmonkey

Holocaust deniers burn me up.

Well, they'd like to.

they make me hot under the collar.

182 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:54:48pm

re: #166 nyc redneck

i hate holocaust deniers. they are either crazy nuts or nazi sympathizers.
but it doesn't seem right to prosecute them for ugly words alone.
even given the horror of ww2, why is there no trust that regular society can crush them w/ derision and ridicule?
that is what should be happening.
how we walk passed crazy goons standing on soap boxes in times square and laugh.

I used to agree... until Obama won the election, that proved, in my eyes at least, that the crowd can be swayed to believe and do whatever they want.
/ sarc with bits of truth...

183 bosforus  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:55:02pm

Thanks for another great day at lgf down the crapper! I'm outtie like a Saudi. ulululululu

184 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:55:04pm

re: #173 buzzsawmonkey

Holocaust deniers burn me up.

Well, they'd like to.

I'll get the fire extinguisher.

185 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:55:20pm

re: #173 buzzsawmonkey

Oh, buzz. What am I gonna' do with you?

186 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:55:37pm
187 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:55:39pm

re: #166 nyc redneck

why is there no trust that regular society can crush them w/ derision and ridicule?

Sadly, it doesn't. At least not in Europe.

188 Sharmuta  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:55:49pm

re: #170 yochanan

So comparing 0bama to a tyrannical, genocidal maniac is bad, but in your opinion it's fair enough to compare 0bama to homicidal dictators? That's just as nuts.

189 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:56:29pm

Hitler's Willing Executioners

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I read his book. It's interesting but not necessarily easy reading.

190 David Simon  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:56:36pm

re: #153 reine.de.tout

LOLOLOLOLOL!

Somebody once told me this one - take one of those plastic straps that cops sometimes use as handcuffs - crawl under the car and wrap it around the axle.

Makes an awful awful noise, but does no damage to the car.

What I don't like about it is that the person is then out whatever money they have to pay somebody to find out what's "wrong" with the car.

And that would just be wrong.

Unless, of course, the bumper of said car was sporting an Obama/Biden sticker. ;->

191 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:56:46pm

re: #167 Meremortal

An aside...

You lizards need to know that Walter L. Newton is a very talented writer. I attended a reading of one of his works last night, and it was super.

He wrote cog under the table.

192 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:56:55pm

re: #163 Ozark Mountain Daredevil

This is the first I've heard of that. Do you have any links?

I've read or heard about the suicides from several books and documentaries, but most recently I think this was mentioned in the "Patton" biography by Alan Axelrod.

193 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:57:00pm

I wonder if a Hungarian survivor/heir has ever thought about suing Soros for his actions.

194 Desert Dog  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:57:15pm

Arbeit macht frei, eh Roeland? I guess those ovens were for the pizza and french bread the nice Nazis gave to the "happy workers"?

A person in this day and age to denying the holocaust is a truly unbelievable thing. Those darn Nazis wrote everything down...it is the one of the most documented events in the entire span of history known as WWII. What a complete and total rodent.

195 Killian Bundy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:57:23pm

re: #179 The Other Les

Is he really sure he wants to do that? How many of those rejected voters are service members voting Republican?

/well, chances are, if you can't fill out a ballot correctly, you're a Franken voter

196 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:57:48pm

re: #188 Sharmuta

So comparing 0bama to a tyrannical, genocidal maniac is bad, but in your opinion it's fair enough to compare 0bama to homicidal dictators? That's just as nuts.

Past behavior of people holding similar doctrines (socialism) is no indicator of future performance.

/

197 Meremortal  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:58:03pm

re: #169 Walter L. Newton

Just point a couple of your groupies my way and we're even.

198 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:58:13pm

re: #169 Walter L. Newton

OT - *Blushing* Thanks Mere, where do I send the check?

The hoopster thinks you are very talented Walter...
look forward to looking you up sometime while in Denver.
/jeez..you do have alittle bit of a temper...Am i going to have to fight our way out of a bar? gotcha covered Walter..
//I'm teasing you

199 yochanan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:58:25pm

re: #188 Sharmuta

So comparing 0bama to a tyrannical, genocidal maniac is bad, but in your opinion it's fair enough to compare 0bama to homicidal dictators? That's just as nuts.


I WAS COMPARING HITLER TO POL POT, STALIN, OR MAO not obama

200 nyc redneck  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:58:55pm

re: #187 Spare O'Lake

Sadly, it doesn't. At least not in Europe.

then it is a far worse problem than legislating against ugly words.

201 Ozark Mountain Daredevil  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:59:44pm

re: #177 buzzsawmonkey

Al Franken--A Boy named "Sue"!

More like a girlyman named Sue.

202 Sharmuta  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 4:59:49pm

re: #199 yochanan

That's not clear in what you posted. Sorry.

203 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:00:14pm

re: #191 debutaunt

He wrote cog under the table.

Ah, I heard that Cog was whacked, but I am not sure of what you mean by your comment above? Did I have something to do with Cog's departure?

204 experiencedtraveller  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:00:33pm

re: #115 Meremortal

+
My Dad's outfit liberated Ebensee (Austria). Dad never would say much about it, but Bob Persinger (first tank in) told me some horrific details. The survivors were almost all teenagers as the very young and the old had died. One man was given a piece of bread, took a bite and dropped dead on the spot. The Americans quickly learned to only give the survivors water and sugar cubes. The shock of food killed them, they were all on the verge of death from starvation and mistreatment. Google Ebensee for more.

Thanks for sharing that. First person testimony is most important to any study of history. But I know the troofers and deniers and attention seekers are studying the issue looking for a opening. I just hope the next generation of historians is up to the challenge. Regards.

205 yochanan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:00:41pm

with obama who knows who we can compare him to so far all he has done is talk. the talk reminds me of dhimmi carter.

206 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:00:42pm

re: #199 yochanan

That wasn't clear in your post, I thought you were referencing the O as well Yochanan, of course this comes from someone who types like Yoda speaks sometimes.

207 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:01:22pm

re: #203 Walter L. Newton

Ah, I heard that Cog was whacked, but I am not sure of what you mean by your comment above? Did I have something to do with Cog's departure?

I think he just meant you must be a much better writer than cognito claimed to be.

208 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:02:22pm

re: #191 debutaunt

He wrote cog under the table.

I dug Cog...added a kind of backwards *something* to the LGF stew... the way he/she/it would defend the MSM in principle of a 'free press' regardless of how completely crappy and horrid and defenseless the article was...

209 yochanan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:02:22pm

re: #170 yochanan

IN 100% AGREEMENT
no american president is anything like snicklegruber. anyone who uses his name to talk about any american president clearly doesn't know who or what snicklegruber is or was.
compareing him(snicklegruber) to pol pot, stalin, or mao fair enough.

210 Lincolntf  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:02:29pm

As pretty much always happens, the law of unintended consequences comes into play. I lived in Germany for a couple years (Baumholder/Idar-Oberstein) and the few locals who were into the "Nazi" thing were roughly analogous to American kids who were raised in a strict Christian area and became fans of "death-metal" or some such crap. That which is most forbidden, becomes most desirable.

211 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:02:31pm

re: #198 HoosierHoops

The hoopster thinks you are very talented Walter...
look forward to looking you up sometime while in Denver.
/jeez..you do have alittle bit of a temper...Am i going to have to fight our way out of a bar? gotcha covered Walter..
//I'm teasing you

Er, no. I don't drink anymore, so you wouldn't find me in a bar too often. But, now, we could get into a snitch with some angry actors sometime. Then I'll need you at my back!

212 calcajun  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:02:47pm

re: #106 shiplord kirel

Yep, as I said before, not even Mussolini was equivalent to Hitler, and he friggin' invented fascism.

But his uniforms were funnier.///

I want to make a serious note here, though. There is a lot of fear and concern over the direction this country is going to take come the end of January. It does not do any of us any good to speculate as to what direction that will be. President Obama will lead from the center/left as Clinton did. He is not going to take the tiller and jam it hard to port. That is not the real danger our nation faces.

Instead of being concerned about whether there are 60 Dem-controlled Senate seats, or if Bush administration aides are going to be indicted, or if stealth creationists are transmitting subliminal ID doctrine into the brains our youths, be concerned about the real problems looming on the horizon for next year. The worst case scenario calls for more market anxiety and more bank failures. More 401K plans are going to lose money. People who thought they could retire on time will have to continue to work. This coupled with unemployment projections of up to 10% means that 2009 has the makings of being a rather bleak year for many. The possible financial crisis far outweighs any other concern we presently face as a nation.

The potential for genuine hardships is real. The issues could be as great, if not greater than what we saw more than thirty years ago. We can take some comfort in that it does not promise to be as dire as what many of our parents and grandparents endured in the 1930's.

We should all take stock of what is most important to us as we enter into this Holiday season. Look each to his own house, family and neighbors. Put the immediate needs of others above your own and in that way, your own needs will be met. Rejoice in the relationships that you all have, both here on this electronic loony bin, and in the real world. Just remember to stand firm in the courage of your convictions.

OK--the soapbox is gettin' kinda wobbly. Time to get down.

213 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:03:13pm

re: #203 Walter L. Newton

Ah, I heard that Cog was whacked, but I am not sure of what you mean by your comment above? Did I have something to do with Cog's departure?

Oooopps, not cog - you took on a troll recently and hammered him beautifully!

214 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:03:25pm

re: #208 Oh no...Sand People!

I dug Cog...added a kind of backwards *something* to the LGF stew... the way he/she/it would defend the MSM in principle of a 'free press' regardless of how completely crappy and horrid and defenseless the article was...

I have yet to meet someone who could take as much crap day in and out and keep on ticking. (All self brought on of course... but still...)

215 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:03:29pm

re: #186 ploome hineni

because now the world knew they knew

because after the war, their behavior came to be seen as beastly and criminal

before and during the war it was normal, and profitable

It's also possible they felt guilt about standing by idly and doing nothing.

I don't believe nobody knew anything nor do I believe everyone knew everything. Heck, there's people in American who don't know that we fought Japan in WWII. Ignorance, time and time again in this world, has had terrible consequences for the innocent.

216 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:05:01pm

re: #207 Nevergiveup

I think he just meant you must be a much better writer than cognito claimed to be.

Ok. I understand now. As an aside, did Cog ever link to any of his "work?" I don't remember ever seeing anything. Unless I missed something, his relationship to the MSM, or whatever he really did or didn't do, was all based on what he claimed, but there was no proof to back up if he really was in the writing business.

Or am I missing something?

217 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:05:37pm

re: #208 Oh no...Sand People!

I dug Cog...added a kind of backwards *something* to the LGF stew... the way he/she/it would defend the MSM in principle of a 'free press' regardless of how completely crappy and horrid and defenseless the article was...

Cog has an automatic response that has a hair-trigger. I thought he was deliberately obtuse most of the time.

218 The Other Les  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:06:10pm

re: #215 Crusty

It's also possible they felt guilt about standing by idly and doing nothing.

I don't believe nobody knew anything nor do I believe everyone knew everything. Heck, there's people in American who don't know that we fought Japan in WWII. Ignorance, time and time again in this world, has had terrible consequences for the innocent.

There are people who believe that the air raid on Pearl Harbor was in retaliation for the nuclear bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

219 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:06:16pm

re: #213 debutaunt

Oooopps, not cog - you took on a troll recently and hammered him beautifully!

Ah, that was Edgar. Downside of his whacking is that now I have a whole half case of Edgar-off (as seen on TV), and I can't sell any of it.

220 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:06:17pm
221 ArmyWife  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:06:43pm

re: #214 Oh no...Sand People!

He was a key part in my take over the RNC plan! We needed a tool inside the MSM to do the part of writing nothing but glowing articles on our chosen RNC candidate (an unknown entity that together we are going rise to fame and victory). Back to the drawing board, I guess.

222 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:06:50pm

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

Ok. I understand now. As an aside, did Cog ever link to any of his "work?" I don't remember ever seeing anything. Unless I missed something, his relationship to the MSM, or whatever he really did or didn't do, was all based on what he claimed, but there was no proof to back up if he really was in the writing business.

Or am I missing something?

It was a secwet.

223 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:07:26pm

re: #216 Walter L. Newton

Ok. I understand now. As an aside, did Cog ever link to any of his "work?" I don't remember ever seeing anything. Unless I missed something, his relationship to the MSM, or whatever he really did or didn't do, was all based on what he claimed, but there was no proof to back up if he really was in the writing business.

Or am I missing something?

Well Walter..If I was a writer, msm or not.. I'd be linking my sh*t all over the Internet...Who doesn't?

224 MandyManners  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:07:34pm

re: #217 debutaunt

Cog has an automatic response that has a hair-trigger. I thought he was deliberately obtuse most of the time.

Yes, and he said he liked coming here to "chat".

225 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:07:52pm

re: #126 Charles

There is a reason for these laws against Holocaust denial: the Holocaust.

It can be credibly argued that the American concept of free speech in matters like this would be very dangerous in Europe.

Even here in America the American concept of free speech is dangerous. Why else would Congress be considering the Fairness Doctrine or universities and colleges be pushing repressive speech codes, just to name a few.

226 Desert Dog  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:08:24pm

I have been away for a while, what happened to cognito? Finally pushed it too far?

227 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:08:33pm

re: #224 MandyManners

Yes, and he said he liked coming here to "chat".

I thought he should have been charged for all the arguments.

228 nyc redneck  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:08:57pm

re: #217 debutaunt

Cog has an automatic response that has a hair-trigger. I thought he was deliberately obtuse most of the time.

i got the impression he liked to get kicked.
i made a point to never do it.

229 Killgore Trout  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:09:22pm

re: #212 calcajun

Well said.

230 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:09:37pm

re: #226 Desert Dog

I have been away for a while, what happened to cognito? Finally pushed it too far?

Yup, not with one of us paeans but with the big boy upstairs.

231 debutaunt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:09:54pm

re: #228 nyc redneck

i got the impression he liked to get kicked.
i made a point to never do it.

Maybe he actually was a writer - for some S&M magazine.

232 ArmyWife  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:10:11pm

re: #225 FurryOldGuyJeans
Oh Furry, you are beginning to see the connection. The "fairness doctrine" is not as it appears. Logically, one would say the left should oppose this to the bitter end least it expose the level of stupidity in which they operate on a grand scale. "Fairness" means silence the right at all costs so we, the left, can tell you, the little people, what you think.

233 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:10:23pm

When I think of these pukes defending VB it somewhat turns my stomach. To see how truly anti american it is, transplant Filip DeWinter to any midwest state. Have him get elected to congress, and put up the heil hitler salute while being sworn in.

He would probably be recalled, impeached, and run out of the state on a rail all in the same day, however some idiot US citizens support him.

234 nyc redneck  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:10:33pm

re: #231 debutaunt

Maybe he actually was a writer - for some S&M magazine.

LOL

235 JohnnyReb  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:10:45pm

re: #215 Crusty

It's also possible they felt guilt about standing by idly and doing nothing.

I don't believe nobody knew anything nor do I believe everyone knew everything. Heck, there's people in American who don't know that we fought Japan in WWII. Ignorance, time and time again in this world, has had terrible consequences for the innocent.

There are also a ton of Americans that don't know that we locked up most of the Japanese/Americans living on the west coast of the US in camps after Pearl harbor. Granted we had a few battalions of them that we let fight in Europe, the Neisi, (and they came out with tons of battle honors), but we locked most of them up in camps for years, not concentration camps, but camps none the less. No trials, no courts, no due process, we just rounded them up and locked them up for years. And we just finally made some reparations to the survivors after 40+ years.

236 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:10:54pm

re: #223 HoosierHoops

Well Walter..If I was a writer, msm or not.. I'd be linking my sh*t all over the Internet...Who doesn't?

Agree. And that was what I was wondering about. Hell, I'm the first person to admit that I tend to shameless self-promotion on LGF's time to time.

Bottom line is I never say anything he posted on LGF's that would back up his claim to be a "writer," and that includes the way he framed his arguments here.

237 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:10:59pm

Anyone know who the 4 girls singing at the game are?

238 Killian Bundy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:11:03pm

Will ABC Grill or Toss Softballs to Terrorist Bomber William Ayers?

On Thursday's "Good Morning America," ABC hosts touted the show's exclusive interview on Friday with bomber William Ayers.

/they're going to let this [expletive deleted on the TV?

239 Occasional Reader  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:11:38pm

re: #231 debutaunt

Maybe he actually was a writer - for some S&M magazine.

Ah! Finally we're back to talking about magazines.

Okay, so I ordered some of the 8-round magazines from Kimber. Thanks to those who gave input.

240 Desert Dog  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:11:40pm

re: #225 FurryOldGuyJeans

Even here in America the American concept of free speech is dangerous. Why else would Congress be considering the Fairness Doctrine or universities and colleges be pushing repressive speech codes, just to name a few.

It always cracks me up when the left points to the right and calls out repression. As far as speech goes, it is the left that wants to silence people, not the right.

I am very happy to live in the USA. We take our freedom of speech for granted here...most people don't even think about it...

241 Sharmuta  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:11:55pm

Not that he's worth the time, but I thought a bit about cognito this morning, and I thought- the portrait of an msm moby. Remember how during the campaign he'd come in here talking up the economy? Just like his friends in the msm were doing? I think he was a moby- a member of the msm trying to act like one of us; a man who believes in the BS he helps to peddle.

Anyways- that's more than enough thinking I care to spend on that guy.

242 Desert Dog  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:12:04pm

re: #230 Nevergiveup

Yup, not with one of us paeans but with the big boy upstairs.

What? he is no longer breathing?

243 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:12:11pm

re: #238 Killian Bundy

Will ABC Grill or Toss Softballs to Terrorist Bomber William Ayers?

/they're going to let this [expletive deleted on the TV?

ABC can go fuck themsleves. Disgusting!

244 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:12:15pm
245 rightymouse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:12:25pm

re: #237 Nevergiveup

Anyone know who the 4 girls singing at the game are?

No - but I just heard my hubby making very uncomplimentary noises about them.

246 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:12:27pm

re: #232 ArmyWife

Oh Furry, you are beginning to see the connection. The "fairness doctrine" is not as it appears. Logically, one would say the left should oppose this to the bitter end least it expose the level of stupidity in which they operate on a grand scale. "Fairness" means silence the right at all costs so we, the left, can tell you, the little people, what you think.

I have seen the connection for a LOOONG time, ArmyWife. Any suppression of speech is usually done by the Left so as to dominate the marketplace of ideas. Free speech properly applied is anathema to ruling elites.

247 Occasional Reader  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:12:29pm

re: #238 Killian Bundy

Will ABC Grill or Toss Softballs to Terrorist Bomber William Ayers?

/they're going to let this [expletive deleted on the TV?

There was a thread on the subject.
The mind reels, yes.

248 Nevergiveup  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:12:50pm

re: #242 Desert Dog

What? he is no longer breathing?

I meant with Charles

249 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:13:14pm

A couple of movies that are very relevant to this thread:

Shoah A 9-1/2 hour documentary consisting of interviews with survivors of the Holocaust giving first-hand testimony of what they saw and experienced. Jewish camp survivors, engineers who drove the cars to the death camps, residents of nearby towns, sonderkomando, even camp guards all give eye-witness accounts. Possibly the most important documentary ever made, this film should be required viewing in schools.

Mr. Death Another documentary. Canadian Holocaust deniers hire an American death penalty expert to disprove the Holocaust. The absurdly flawed science and logic of these people really shows you the mindset of these mushbrains. They are driven by their desire to believe things a certain way and not at all by any desire for truth.

250 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:13:28pm

re: #228 nyc redneck

i got the impression he liked to get kicked.
i made a point to never do it.

Maybe that is why he would always pile crap on him/her/it self...

Kind of like Bill Murray in Little Shop of Horrors and the Dentist...

251 Killian Bundy  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:14:01pm

re: #247 Occasional Reader

There was a thread on the subject.
The mind reels, yes.

/why yes there is, my bad

252 stuiec  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:14:51pm

re: #205 yochanan

with obama who knows who we can compare him to so far all he has done is talk. the talk reminds me of dhimmi carter.

I expect a combination of the best of Carter and Clinton out of Obama's foreign policy. Like them, it's what he won't do that will result in misery on a massive scale. His timidity and neglect rate to account for vast numbers of people killed or driven into oppression during his time in office.

253 Oldasdirt  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:14:53pm

I need to see "The Big Red One" again.If just for one line.
Colbern to solder firing into furness at a concentration camp they had entered where a Nazi is hiding,Solder fired about 30,30.6 rounds.
"I think you got him kid"

254 Sunlight  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:15:42pm

What are the flags behind him? (Sorry if you already discussed this... I just got here.)

255 nyc redneck  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:15:44pm

re: #238 Killian Bundy

Will ABC Grill or Toss Softballs to Terrorist Bomber William Ayers?

/they're going to let this [expletive deleted on the TV?

the questions will reflect great sympathetic understanding of the terrorist and his motivations.
there will be bonding and appropriate moments of light hearted laughter.

nothing serious. nothing to cause the son of a bitch any stress.

256 yochanan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:15:48pm

re: #235 JohnnyReb

the fact that we only did it to Japanese bothers me now if we had done it to german and italian nationals as well then it would not have bothered me but because it was only done to japanese then the issue of racism comes up.

257 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:15:58pm

re: #235 JohnnyReb

There are also a ton of Americans that don't know that we locked up most of the Japanese/Americans living on the west coast of the US in camps after Pearl harbor. Granted we had a few battalions of them that we let fight in Europe, the Neisi, (and they came out with tons of battle honors), but we locked most of them up in camps for years, not concentration camps, but camps none the less. No trials, no courts, no due process, we just rounded them up and locked them up for years. And we just finally made some reparations to the survivors after 40+ years.

Many of them were forced to sell their homes for pennies, too. Yep, we fought the enemy by becoming more like the enemy. It was disgusting.

258 HoosierHoops  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:18:08pm

re: #241 Sharmuta

Not that he's worth the time, but I thought a bit about cognito this morning, and I thought- the portrait of an msm moby. Remember how during the campaign he'd come in here talking up the economy? Just like his friends in the msm were doing? I think he was a moby- a member of the msm trying to act like one of us; a man who believes in the BS he helps to peddle.

Anyways- that's more than enough thinking I care to spend on that guy.

I agree Sharm..But also..
As a writer he claimed to be..I didn't see any sophistication of ideas..no nuance that writers are so famous for.. no maturity of a man with world experiences.
just the echo chamber of a college classroom..
I say Cog was a junior in college...

259 Bubblehead II  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:18:49pm

OT, but just heard on CNN Lou Dobbs and Campell Browns's No Bull. Hillary is on the short list for Sec. State... That will be interesting.

Now returning you to you're regularly programmed thread.

Gone for the night as well.

L8R

260 Sunlight  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:19:08pm

re: #246 FurryOldGuyJeans

I have seen the connection for a LOOONG time, ArmyWife. Any suppression of speech is usually done by the Left so as to dominate the marketplace of ideas. Free speech properly applied is anathema to ruling elites.

I heard Michael Barone on a radio interview today or yesterday. He said the greatest thing. He gave the history of the left, saying it started in the NE and then the people moved outward from there. He said these people were "bossy" in thinking they knew best and have always tried to force everybody to live how they thought best.

261 yochanan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:19:57pm

there were plenty of german groups that before the war were pro hitler and pro germany so it was unfair just to go after japanese americans and leave the german alone the whole thing smelled of racism.

262 CharlieBravo  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:20:06pm

re: #142 Charles

I'm not defending the laws - I'm trying to point out that it's very far from a simple black-and-white issue.

Ask an anthropologist and they'll have fun explaining all of our human beliefs. Most have something to do with survival at their root. Makes you think you should be tolerant even when you don't want to be.

263 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:22:08pm

re: #214 Oh no...Sand People!

I have yet to meet someone who could take as much crap day in and out and keep on ticking. (All self brought on of course... but still...)

Hey all.
Yeah, it's like he came here to be the guy sitting at the Dunk Tank at the carnival.

264 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:22:42pm
265 callahan23  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:25:05pm

re: #249 Crusty

A couple of movies that are very relevant to this thread:

Shoah A 9-1/2 hour documentary consisting of interviews with survivors of the Holocaust giving first-hand testimony of what they saw and experienced. Jewish camp survivors, engineers who drove the cars to the death camps, residents of nearby towns, sonderkomando, even camp guards all give eye-witness accounts. Possibly the most important documentary ever made, this film should be required viewing in schools.

Mr. Death Another documentary. Canadian Holocaust deniers hire an American death penalty expert to disprove the Holocaust. The absurdly flawed science and logic of these people really shows you the mindset of these mushbrains. They are driven by their desire to believe things a certain way and not at all by any desire for truth.

I would add 'Das Schweigen der Quandts' (The silence of the (family) Quandt). Don't know if there is a translation in English yet.
The family Quandt are nowadays the main owners of BMW the car-maker in the nazi-era they were producing batteries for the nazi war machine. They abused forced labour on a massive scale and never had to pay for reparations to their victims.
Wonder if anyone with a conscience can by a BMW after watching that documentary.

266 Flying Dutchman  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:26:15pm

Hi all,

Just a few words to say that I'm sad to see that this post got less "ups" (7) than a "regular" open thread, this shows that even among us too many don't understand the importance of fighting this evil.

267 The Shadow Do  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:30:01pm

re: #164 Nevergiveup

They all did not know some of the horrible details but they knew. All their Jewish neighbors disappeared and if they lived near the camps, they could smell it. Many of those who killed themselves were rightly afriad they were going to be blamed.

Judgment at Nuremburg. Whenever I encounter holocaust denial I am reminded of the scene with Spencer Tracy and the German couple he was being hosted by (Marlene Dietrich & ?). She denied, he quietly confessed. What a powerful movie experience that movie is.

268 Charles Johnson  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:30:59pm

re: #266 Flying Dutchman

Hi all,

Just a few words to say that I'm sad to see that this post got less "ups" (7) than a "regular" open thread, this shows that even among us too many don't understand the importance of fighting this evil.

It's worse than that. There are people who ding these posts down.

269 foxtrotter  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:31:32pm

re: #189 Nevergiveup

Hitler's Willing Executioners

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

I read his book. It's interesting but not necessarily easy reading.

I recommend What We Knew and especially Neighbors - The Destruction of the Jewish Community of Jedwabne, Poland. Neighbors is particularly disturbing as it is the Polish neighbors of the local Jews who gleefully murder them, not the Nazis. If I recall, similar events happened in the Baltic states as well. The Einsatzgruppen certainly didn't have to do all of the work themselves and how someone could live near a camp and not know what was going on...well, I don't know how that is possible.

270 [deleted]  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:31:49pm
271 least  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:37:34pm
the cardinal sin of any far right [any non-moonbat] party: he said what he really thought


needed fixin'

272 rightymouse  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:39:15pm

Issues of speech/thought control aside (I hate it), it's mind-numbing to me that any educated and civilized person today could hold beliefs such as Raes. It just tells me that it could happen again if thugs like him came to power and he would shrug and go "well, it wasn't so bad". Animal!

273 Adina in Judea  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:39:50pm

Charles,

Do you have a link for the fact that a decision is due to come out about this trial tomorrow?

It's very disturbing that no information seems to be available about recent events in this trial - at least no news seems to be available in English.

The trial was resumed in 2007 so it would be nice to get some specific information about what has happened since the trial was resumed.

Thank you.

274 calcajun  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:40:58pm

re: #259 Bubblehead II

OT, but just heard on CNN Lou Dobbs and Campell Browns's No Bull. Hillary is on the short list for Sec. State... That will be interesting.

Now returning you to you're regularly programmed thread.

Gone for the night as well.

L8R

Great. A better looking Madeleine Albright. Wonderful.

Of course, HRC won't take it. She's be shooting herself in the foot if she has any hopes of getting the nomination in 2012.

275 Pastorius  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:41:47pm

That is seven years ago.

That's ancient history.

Get over it.

//

276 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:45:04pm

re: #178 callahan23

Hope you like it.
It's my favorite song of all time.

Like it. Got it bookmarked and plan to show it to a few people. Best damn video I've seen in a long time. The juxtaposition of the Holocaust footage with footage from the modern Israeli military blew my mind and gave me goosebumps. It's refreshing to hear rap that is full of truth instead of lies. It's the 1%. Never heard Remedy...I used to listen to a little bit of WuTang but it's been a while; didn't realize they had a Jewish member. Makes me respect Wu-Tang that much more, given that a disproportionate segment of that industry subscribes to the pre-conversion Malcom X version of Jew-hatred. Took balls.

I get pretty angry when I see the footage, make no mistake. Makes me want to scream, and break stuff. Makes me want to FORCE the world to watch...and when I read of people denying it "happened", that is, that these people did these *no proper word for it* things, I, too, am glad that this one area of speech is proscribed in Europe.

The quotes around "happened" above...too many writers put this atrocity in that sense. "X number of Jews died during the Holocaust."
Well, what'd they go and do that for? What's wrong with those Jews? Like they just up and died. And "during" the Holocaust. Like it was a passing, impersonal storm, or a f**king ice age. I want to yell, "No you piece of shit AP/Reuters/AFP/etc. idiot! The correct way to write this sentence is: 'X number of Jews were Murdered By German Citizens in what later became known as The Holocaust!" Anyone who writes the former sentence is complicit, or a complete idiot who was never taught to write. HELL I NEVER WENT TO COLLEGE AND I KNOW THIS. Then again that may be why I know this...maybe that's how they teach writing in J-school. The Holocaust just "Happened" and during it, the Jews, priests, homosexuals, invalids, and dissenters "died during it". *spit*

Anyway, callahan23, thank you for that. REALLY good vid.
-Taq

277 Adina in Judea  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:47:50pm

One of the videos from MEMRI has a jaw dropping rant from a commentator in Saudi Arabia where he complains about sympathy for the Holocaust.

He ranted about how the Holocaust was the death of 50 or 60 Jews, so he can't see why people make such a big deal about it. He considers the "real Holocaust" be happening in Gaza.

All the various Holocaust denials encourage jaw dropping nonsense like this.

Saudi Scholar Dr. Walid Al-Rashudi: 50-60 People Perished in Jewish Holocaust. The Killing of All the Jews Will Not Be Satisfactory Compensation for the "Real Holocaust" in Gaza - Feb 29, 2008

278 Pastorius  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:48:37pm

Raes, 67, committed the cardinal sin of any far right party: he said what he really thought in public on the Holocaust.


Is that really "the cardinal sin of any far right party"?

Is it not true that the sin is hating Jews to the point that one has a virulent need to distort the history of violence toward them?

The sin is not telling the truth of what he thinks. The sin is hatred.

It almost sounds like the Guardian writer isn't clear on what the problem is here.

And, it goes to show why it would probably be better for everyone if Holocaust denial were not criminalized.

Here we are, as a result, having to deal with the fact that a Guardian writer is moving the "sin" committed a step or two away from the actual problem.

279 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:49:03pm

re: #10 quickjustice

"Arbeit Mak Frie"? Do I have that right?

No, actually. The sign read

Arbeit macht Frei


which translates, read literally, to "Work makes Free". But the import of the words was this, from Dante:

All hope abandon, ye who enter here.

Now on this earth, things are almost never exactly that bad. Yes, you will probably die. Yes, they mean to kill all of you. But it just might happen that before your number is up, a swarm of T34's and a few thousand Russian submachinegunners show up at the gate, crash the party, and mow down the guards. News flash, guards: the sign is for you, too.

It is because that's how it went that we have a few live eyewitnesses from Auschwitz. The millions of shoes, dental fillings, eyeglass frames, and so forth tell their own story. If the man wants to quibble as to whether it was 6.5 million, or actually 6493272, he's just disgusting. If he wants to insinuate that somehow there were millions upon millions of people dispossessed of their shoes, their teeth, and their glasses, but then released---ah, hell. Why argue? In Europe, it's simpler to just schlepp him off to jail. In the U.S., he'd have the right to say that. But such speech is only just barely free speech. It's Tourette syndrome of the soul.

280 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:54:46pm

re: #257 Crusty

Many of them were forced to sell their homes for pennies, too. Yep, we fought the enemy by becoming more like the enemy. It was disgusting.

I updinged you because I don't understand why it was at -1.

re: #256 yochanan

The German and Italians Looked Like Us. (for the most part) Nuff said.

281 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:56:06pm

Updinged the post as well.

I seldom down-ding...if ever. And I always forget to upding the blogposts themselves.

282 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:57:17pm

re: #126 Charles

There is a reason for these laws against Holocaust denial: the Holocaust.

It can be credibly argued that the American concept of free speech in matters like this would be very dangerous in Europe.

Most laws under which holocaust denial is illegal in Europe aren't even tailored specifically against holocaust denial but more broadly against inciting racial hatred or vilifying the remembrance of the deceased.

Of course, these laws never stopped holocaust denial. Again, what happened is the "evolutional pressure" that Charles talked about. Holocaust denialists learned to be more sensible about spreading their filth. One main pillar of the illegality of holocaust denial, for instance, is that the holocaust is an established fact of historical reality. So most holocaust denialists try to tackle the "fact issue" indirectly: By pointing out that facts should be able to be freely doubted and "critically reviewed", by trying to expose inconsistencies in the technical details of the genocide, etc. This, on the other hand, has put likewise "evolutional pressure" on genuine researchers on the holocaust to treat the subject with more scrutiny in order to refute the denialists, the most famous example probably being Jean-Claude Pressac who started out as a holocaust denialist himself but whose own research forced him to accept the reality and publish the evidence he found through decades of research.

283 calcajun  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:57:23pm

re: #168 Killian Bundy

Franken campaign sues for voter lists

/I am desperate, hear me roar

And gosh darn it, people like him. For the life of me, I cannot figure out why, but people do--at least 1,800,000 folks in the land o'lakes do.

284 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 5:59:36pm

re: #270 ploome hineni

I believe "became more like" is quantitative. Not "like" but trending in that direction. And why did we not do this to German and Italian nationals? I don't believe Crusty meant that we became "just like" the enemy, or Crusty would have used those words instead. Just sayin.

285 calcajun  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:00:49pm

re: #257 Crusty

Many of them were forced to sell their homes for pennies, too. Yep, we fought the enemy by becoming more like the enemy. It was disgusting.

The sad truth of the matter was that there were some infiltrators in the mix--but the Army wanted them interned and FDR went with it. We also interned Italian and German-Americans as well. It was the worst violation of civil rights since slavery. Now, ask me if it was a necessary evil.

286 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:03:44pm

re: #270 ploome hineni

no we did not become more like the enemy

why don;t you google the Rape of Nanking to learn about the enemy

how you sling about these ignorant statements is beyond me

What's ignorant about it? What did I say that's not true? Jesus, talk about denial!

You move innocent people into camps, you become more like the enemy.

287 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:05:26pm

re: #285 calcajun

I'll bite. Was it a necessary evil? Were there Japanese "sleeper cells"?

If yes, I could ask another question regarding our Muslim population.

288 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:06:00pm

re: #284 Taqiyyotomist

I believe "became more like" is quantitative. Not "like" but trending in that direction. And why did we not do this to German and Italian nationals? I don't believe Crusty meant that we became "just like" the enemy, or Crusty would have used those words instead. Just sayin.

Thank you, Taqiyyotomist. You're exactly right, I chose my words carefully. I didn't say we were "just like", I didn't liken the camps in California to Auschwitz, our actions to the Rape of Nanking, the Manilla Massacre, etc. People around here need to stop jumping at shadows.

289 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:08:27pm

re: #208 Oh no...Sand People!

I dug Cog...added a kind of backwards *something* to the LGF stew... the way he/she/it would defend the MSM in principle of a 'free press' regardless of how completely crappy and horrid and defenseless the article was...

I suspect his days were numbered after his profoundly nasty comments on the Amazon Kindle thread.

290 calcajun  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:10:30pm

re: #286 Crusty

re: #287 Taqiyyotomist

Yes, we did become like the Germans and Japanese. They interned not only foreign nationals in their own countries and in the lands they occupied. The also interned citizens who they suspected would be less than loyal.

As for the "sleeper cells" yes, there were some, both European and Asian, before the war. Most were all destroyed by 1943 and many internees were slowly released by late 43 through mid 44 when it was clear we were going to win the war.

291 lostlakehiker  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:21:46pm

re: #265 callahan23

A few points:

(1) Your link to Shoah is actually a duplicate link to the other link.

(2) I'd be afraid to make Shoah required viewing in high school. It's bad enough, reading about it as an adult. One Dr. Miklos Nyiszli wrote a book wikipedia article. To make teenagers watch it? That's harsh. You'd have kids throwing up, nightmares, suicides.

(3) BMW and Germany are beyond the statute of limitations. While there is no retribution that can do justice to Germany's crime, there is a limit to humanly decent retribution. The Germans who were chiefly responsible were killed in combat or executed after war crimes tribunals. The German people, as a whole, were visited with collective punishment severe enough to stain our own collective soul: Dresden, for instance.

Age has extinguished all but a handful of the remainder of those responsible, and the fraction of new noxious Germans is at trace levels. They're as clean as the French, or cleaner, nowadays. One may with clean conscience do business with today's Germans. BMW included.

292 Taqiyyotomist  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:23:54pm

re: #290 calcajun

I won't ask my next question, as I do not want to be whacked.

293 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:41:45pm

re: #253 Oldasdirt

I need to see "The Big Red One" again.If just for one line.
Colbern to solder firing into furness at a concentration camp they had entered where a Nazi is hiding,Solder fired about 30,30.6 rounds.
"I think you got him kid"

There is a special edition of "The Big Red One" that is a HUGE restoration/reconstruction of "lost" and butchered scenes, adding nearly 50 minutes. I heartily recommend the restored version over the studio cut.

294 FurryOldGuyJeans  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:45:26pm

re: #260 Sunlight

I heard Michael Barone on a radio interview today or yesterday. He said the greatest thing. He gave the history of the left, saying it started in the NE and then the people moved outward from there. He said these people were "bossy" in thinking they knew best and have always tried to force everybody to live how they thought best.

Bossy elites are not a new phenomenon, nor strictly American. The current American Left takes as its inspiration the European/Euro-peon mode.

There have been nanny-staters since civilization began who promise whatever it takes to gain/retain power.

295 Flying Dutchman  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 6:46:55pm

re: #268 Charles

It's worse than that. There are people who ding these posts down.

I really feel sorry, not so much for you or "us" but for them. Let's hope they will open their eyes, rather sooner than later.

All the best and thanks' again for everything you do !

296 Moe Katz  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 7:12:41pm

re: #119 Walter L. Newton

Oh come on, we are all adults here (I think). Let's just stop the silly comparisons. Geeessshhh...

I agree. Obama is more like Attila the Hun.

297 rboa  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 7:21:33pm

If there are laws against being this stupid, why are liberals still walking around free?

298 Lynn B.  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 7:52:15pm

re: #233 Thanos

When I think of these pukes defending VB it somewhat turns my stomach. To see how truly anti american it is, transplant Filip DeWinter to any midwest state. Have him get elected to congress, and put up the heil hitler salute while being sworn in.

He would probably be recalled, impeached, and run out of the state on a rail all in the same day, however some idiot US citizens support him.

That's so true. And it brings together a lot of strands in this thread, which is to say that this is exactly one of many reasons why the European laws punishing Holocaust denial would be inappropriate (even if Constitutional, which they wouldn't be) in the US but have an unfortunate but still necessary and crucial role (IMO) in Europe.

Not to belabor the point, but ... the kind of speech that, unfortunately, might be unleashed in Europe in the absence of these controls has been recognized by those particularly sensitive to it (from both ends of the spectrum) as a sort of piling on. IOW, both a) those trying to protect the survivors and family and friends of those who perished (z"l) and b) those who wish "Hitler had finished the job" (spit!) recognize Holocaust denial as an ongoing assault on the victims intended to wipe out not only their lives but the memory of their lives and their suffering. It just can't be permitted.

299 Randall Gross  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 8:18:31pm

re: #298 Lynn B.

I'm torn about the hate speech laws... they really are anti-american, but so is the thought of banning particular flavors of houses of worship as the anti-jihadists want to do.

As long as there are survivors still in Europe the laws do contain a measure of sense, but still in my book individual rights and liberty trumps all. I prefer to see the evil plainly, but they like to wear suits nowadays because of these laws.

300 Crusty  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 8:41:55pm

re: #291 lostlakehiker

A few points:

(1) Your link to Shoah is actually a duplicate link to the other link.

Egad, thanks for pointing that out. Corrected Shoah link.

(2) I'd be afraid to make Shoah required viewing in high school. It's bad enough, reading about it as an adult. One Dr. Miklos Nyiszli wrote a book wikipedia article. To make teenagers watch it? That's harsh. You'd have kids throwing up, nightmares, suicides.

I think teenagers can handle this movie. Shoah does not show archival footage of skeletal corpses, firing squads, hangings, etc. Instead, the director made a point of sticking to modern day (70's and 80's, when he filmed it) recorded verbal accounts from those who were actually there. He felt it was important to document their testimony before old age claimed them.

Core ideas are formed at young ages, particularly in high school. Children need to know about this before contrary ideas, particularly from liberal historical revisionists and Holocaust deniers, have their influence on them. Will they have nightmares? Maybe. Vomiting and suicide over hearing accounts of what happened 65 years ago? I don't believe that's a reasonable expectation.

301 Lynn B.  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 9:11:15pm

re: #299 Thanos

I'm torn about the hate speech laws... they really are anti-american, but so is the thought of banning particular flavors of houses of worship as the anti-jihadists want to do.

As long as there are survivors still in Europe the laws do contain a measure of sense, but still in my book individual rights and liberty trumps all. I prefer to see the evil plainly, but they like to wear suits nowadays because of these laws.

I would say un-American ... not anti-American. But, again, one of the things that makes this country so exceptional is the solid foundation we've built here that allows us (to a large extent) to take these individual rights and liberties for granted without being consciously aware of the underpinning that allows us to sustain them without threatening the fabric of our society. Europe, despite all their old-worldliness and sophistication, doesn't have it and their society is actually more fragile.

Yet another reason why the facile predictions of "Obama as Hitler" that seem to be proliferating among the Euro-centric blogs now just miss the point entirely.

302 medaura18586  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 9:53:39pm

Obama=Hitler? Of course that's nonsense.

But I do hope the grand Lizard will excuse me if I do compare Obama to Enver Hoxha, however tangentially. The last 3 minutes of this video speak for themselves as to why a comparison may not be as hyperbolic as one might initially think.

Yup...

303 superjan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:48:14pm

i ll translate it for you. just a moment.

304 superjan  Thu, Nov 13, 2008 11:58:10pm

Translated text:

Raes: Indeed It happened systematically that they were prosecuted, that they were hauled away.
But that is was systematically planned that they would all be killed is another matter.
Interviewer: And the figure of 6,5 million people killed?
Raes: (Nods head) You hear me doubting that.
Interviewer:You doubt that?
Raes: Yeah.


ps: Charles, You could always send me (the link of the dutch/flemish) clips upfront, i'm mostly busy or asleep but when i can i will gladly translate.

305 guftafs  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 3:43:11am

re: #267 The Shadow Do

Wilhelm Cornides, a Wehrmacht noncommissioned officer, was stationed in Galicia in the summer of 1942. According to his diary entry of August 31, while he was waiting for a train at the railway station in Rava Ruska, another train entered the station: It carried Jews in some thirty-eight cattle cars. Cornides asked a policeman where the Jews came from. " 'Those are probably the last ones from Lvov,' the policeman answered. 'That has been going on now for five weeks uninterruptedly. In Jaroslav, they let only eight remain, no one knows why.' I asked how far are they going?' Then he replied, 'To Belzec.' 'And then?' 'Poison.' I asked: 'Gas?' He shrugged his shoulders. Then he said only: 'At the beginning, they always shot them, I believe.' "

Later, in his compartment, Cornides struck up a conversation with a woman passenger, a railway policeman's wife, who told him that such transports "were passing through daily, sometimes also with German Jews. I asked : 'Do the Jews know then what is happening with them?' The woman answered: 'Those who come from far won't know anything, but here in the vicinity they know already.' ... Camp Belzec is supposed to be located right on the railway line and the woman promised to show it to me when we pass it."

"At 6:20 p.m.," Cornides recorded, "the train passed Belzec: Before then, we had traveled for some time through a tall pine forest. When the woman called, 'Now it comes,' one could see a high hedge of fir trees. A strong sweetish odor could be made out distinctly. 'But they are stinking already,' said the woman. 'Oh nonsense, that is only the gas,' the railway policeman [who had joined them] said, laughing. Meanwhile we had gone on about 200 yards--the sweetish odor was transformed into a strong smell of something burning. 'That is from the crematory,' says the policeman. A short distance further the fence stopped. In front of it, one could see a guard-house with an SS post." (The Years of extermination, p.399-400, by Saul Friedlander)

306 guftafs  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 4:13:22am

Having caught up on Spencer (finally) taking a stand on VB and related issues, it is not surprising. His subsequent evading, distorting and nitpicking of lesser details are typical defence tactics from the people he won't denounce-yet find valuable.

I want to emphasize that I have not endorsed the Vlaams Belang." (

307 amateurpundit  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 9:30:14am

My father-in-law is a Holocaust survivor, from the Janowska concentration camp. I am strongly opposed to laws banning Holocaust denial. Any government that has the power to outlaw Holocaust denial can just as easily turn around and outlaw Holocaust assertion. I suspect that when European countries are majority Arab that they will pass just such laws, denying "Zionists" the right to assert their ugly "myths".

308 Ty85719  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 9:50:56am

As vile as Vlaams Belang and Holocaust deniers are, it is also disturbing that certain so called 'progressive' nations, such as Belgium, Germany and Canada have 'thought crimes' and prosecute someone for speaking.

309 Crusty  Fri, Nov 14, 2008 8:25:48pm

re: #307 amateurpundit

My father-in-law is a Holocaust survivor, from the Janowska concentration camp. I am strongly opposed to laws banning Holocaust denial. Any government that has the power to outlaw Holocaust denial can just as easily turn around and outlaw Holocaust assertion. I suspect that when European countries are majority Arab that they will pass just such laws, denying "Zionists" the right to assert their ugly "myths".

This is at once the most succinct and intelligent post I have seen about freedom of speech in regards the Holocaust.


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 Frank says:

You drank beer, you played golf, you watched football - WE EVOLVED!